The secret Society
We encourage readers to keep an eye out for the soon-to-be-released work of the Scottish Research Society. You won’t have heard of them before – they’re only three months old, with just 48 “likes” on Facebook – but they’ve already amassed some serious funds and have registered as campaigners for No in the referendum debate.
The society’s website notes that it “was formed on May 6th, under the Act of 1854, permitting Scientific and Literary Societies to be set up to inform and educate the public on social, economic and scientific matters.”
It goes on to add that “the material contained in the Society’s works, is used to provide accurate and informed commentary on aspects of the issues relevant to the question of Scottish independence. The Society is not a campaign group, but an organisation seeking to inform and provide balance.”
So that’s an interesting start.
The site never quite manages to get round to explaining how it can square not being a campaign group with simultaneously noting that “the Society is registered with the Electoral Commission in Scotland, as a pro Unionist group” and publishing articles with such academically-rigorous and balanced titles as:
“When did being a proud Scot and a unionist become a dirty combination?’
“Would you gamble with one million jobs?”
“Economic plans – What economic plans?”
“All Scots will Pay for Salmond Airport bribe”
“Salmond wants to have his (pound) cake and eat it too”
and the cheerfully optimistic “Scotland, a sitting duck for terrorists”.
It’s run by marketing directors Hamish Cameron Alldridge and Elaine MacKenzie Grossart (who are also partners in Namaste Partnership Ltd – a business and events promotion company where interestingly Hamish has his directorship registered in the name of Hamish Cameron rather than Alldridge).
The group (which isn’t a group) was able to raise £74,747 in donations in the last few weeks, via a one-off donation by Staffodshire based JCB digger tycoon and Tory donor Mark Bamford, who has given over £2m to the party and coincidentally happens to be a board member of the Conservative Foundation set up by Margaret Thatcher and John Major to “strengthen the financial future of the Conservative Party”.
Unlock Democracy notes that:
We look forward to seeing the results of Mr Bamford’s largesse.
At least we have consistency. AstroTurf through and through. Labour fronted Tory funded.
Well, this does look like another front to bamboozle and flash bang Scottish voters. We’ll see how things go tonight when Alistair Darling gets put in his place by the First Minister.
And why do they need a Range Rover for a month or so of non campaigning?
Westminster gave away Scotland’s fishing rights. Securing better deal for the UK (London really). Cost us 100,000 jobs and £1.5Bn (Billion) a year.
Jack McConnell (now LORD!)gave back £1.5Bn a year back to UK, although we ALREADY get back less than we put in.
1997 Tories admitted that from 1979 Scots had put in £27Bn more than had got back.
That’s more than £79 Billion.And you wonder why they want to keep us.
How many more wasted Billions?
Herald’s Twitterendum http://www.heraldscotland.com/politics/referendum-news/twitterendum-how-your-tweets-and-our-stories-are-driving-the-debate.1394100272
“inform and provide balance.”
Hmm … now what sort of balance are we talking about here I wonder. I notice they do not say EQUAL balance. So I guess we’re about to be infiltrated with even more UNBALANCED *ahem* balance from this group of non entities.
From the pound cake article:
A spokesperson for the Scottish Research Society, a group opposed to independence, says:
“Salmond simply cannot cherry-pick which bits of the UK he wants and turn his back on the bits that are hard work or aren’t convenient to him. The louder he stomps his feet and says he wants something like a petulant child just damages his credibility as a leader. He can’t keep the pound just because he says he wants to – it’s simply not his decision alone to make. Plus debt is everyone’s responsibility. No one likes it, but it has to be dealt with. Running away from it doesn’t make it cease to exist. Only in a child’s make-believe world would that be the solution. It’s time that Salmond stopped looking through rose-tinted glasses and deal truthfully with the key issues. Intelligent voters want intelligent answers based on the truth.”
So no bias there then.
You sure know how to follow the money Stu. I’ll never buy another toy JCB. Or a real one for that matter.
You wonder why they didn’t speak with ‘Vote No Borders’ to pull and share their resources ‘better togethery’ style?
…that way they would have a Grass Roots numbering about 5 or 6 folk, which is a lot better than a grass roots of 2 or 3.
The upper classes simply will not allow an actual social democracy to exist in Scotland.
But, how many other countries in the world would tolerate giant frauds like the City, the House of Lords or ukok super rich royals, if they had a choice? And we really can choose in a few weeks time.
They received 7 times more than Better Together in the latest round of donations:
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-scotland-politics-28660833
A quick look at their website shows that ‘currently the society has identified 16 major topics to be researched and has submitted to academics for commission.’ So, we choose the topics and the ‘academics’ to write what we want. Given the need for academics to come up with original research and submitted to Journals with peer review – necessary for their posts and advancement – I wonder how many will put their names to this blatant flummery and nonsense.
Is there any of these groups not a front for some NeoLiberal ideology ? I recall recently watching Jack Perritty’s show the Men who made us Spend and the ethos that now permeates UK thinking. These organsations should all be flagged and who their donors are especially if they are represented to the public as being independent. Funny how no one ever questions the OBR or GERS and their links with the Tories with the phrase “What sort of independence is that” yet and iScotland in EU or CU becomes modern day slavery.
I expect the SRS will be appearing from a BBC studio in the near future, is there anything in the UK that is not corrupted.
Another scam in the making
It amazes that we in Scotland will be a haven for terrorists the instant we become independent because of our supposed lack of security forces, yet no one can tell me what was said 10 feet from the door of No 10 Downing street in the plebgate affair when the conversation took place between a government minister and our security forces.
Ms MacKenzie Grossart’s description on LinkedIn is a bit different from the above, but still at odds with their actual output at least imho:
The Scottish Research Society, supports Scotland’s continued membership of the United Kingdom. The Governing Body is devoting its efforts to researching and explaining the realistic problems that would face a separate Scotland. Nearly all of these problems have not been sufficiently identified or aired for the public. The Society’s aim is to direct effective research into these issues and to pass the results all aspects of media. The Society commissions authoritative academic, legal, financial and other experts. The objectives of the Society is to establish a centre of learning to promote, conduct and disseminate accurate, authoritative, timeous and useful research into Scottish economic and scientific affairs for the diffusion of useful knowledge, and for related purposes.”
Seasick Dave says:
“And why do they need a Range Rover for a month or so of non campaigning?”
It’s part of the package Curtis negotiated, no tax to pay this way.
How are the Nob Orders getting on anyhoo ?
They are throwing the book at it now!
I read this today :http://newsnetscotland.com/index.php/scottish-news/9535-rumours-of-massive-oil-find-follow-camerons-secret-shetland-visit
I f I have to watch another oil boom be used to pay for the next generation of nukes, tax cuts to the top earners and underpin further dismantling of the manufacturing sector (following an exit from the EU) then I think I’ll weep. Just think- we could use it to do the exact opposite – dismantle the casino banks, rebuild hi-tech manufacturing and start an oil pension fund like Norway.
Is there any way we can get the truth about what they’ve found (freedom of information perhaps?) We can’t let it become another McCrone.
More column filler for The Scotsman then.
Seasick Dave, that last paragraph made me chuckle “Intelligent voters want intelligent answers based on the truth.” But only because it came after that senseless, fault ridden tirade.
Looks like someone else doesn’t think that Better Together are getting the job done. Still, I wouldn’t be surprised if the likes of The Scotsman fail to mention their campaign registration when quoting them as a “leading think-tank”.
JCB added to the List of Shame.
Running out of places to shop.
IDS on R4 right now, admitting Westmidden is full of careerist’s (not him obvs), and brushing off the misery his policies are causing as “it would happen anyway”.
It’ll be at 57 mins on the PM prog Stu, if you want to grab some material of off it.
Sheesh, what have these people got against the democratic process!?
It would have been possible for BT to have put up a decent (in all senses of the word) argument for their Union. They could have campaigned in the normal time honoured way.
But no, rich Tories’ money, astroturf organisations, corrupt media, has-been Slab frontmen … and their arguments amount mainly to lies and deceit.
There is no justice in this world if Nae win!
Plus debt is everyone’s responsibility. No one likes it, but it has to be dealt with. Running away from it doesn’t make it cease to exist. Only in a child’s make-believe world would that be the solution. It’s time that Salmond stopped looking through rose-tinted glasses and deal truthfully with the key issues. Intelligent voters want intelligent answers based on the truth.”
They do know about the 2007 banking crisis right , because thats what they are describing here but rather than being denigrated our banks have been lauded with public funds via quantative easing that others have paid for through austerity measures being imposed on others.Now that is the truth.
I’m intruiged by that figure, 74747, it must signify something.
If you google either Hamish or Elaine, this site comes up which is an odd name as the Hopi are a native American people in the US south west and its not clear what they are doing in Stirlingshire.
http://hopicommunityenergy.co.uk/wh-do-we-do/about-us/
It looks like the only way the unionists can win this vote is by rigging it or buying it.
The layby where Newport’s sewage works is. You stay classy.
Also, that’s an Evoque, which is an affront to the Range Rover badge. I think they start at a mere £40k-ish.
/pedant
@Gordon Hay
http://www.numberempire.com/74747?ez_orig=1
You’ll be sorry you mentioned it 🙂
Blimey…more nawbags coming over the hill.
Can anyone suggest a good collective noun for ‘nawbags’?
The Range Rover reminds me of a story of when I was at school in Thurso.
A nuclear scientist and his family had moved up from England to work at Dounreay.
Prior to their journey they had sold their television as they didn’t think that we got TV in Scotland and they had bought one of the first Range Rovers as they thought that there were only tracks to drive on.
There was also a query about electricity but I can’t remember the details.
Seriously.
O/T
Oops. William Hill’s have just cancelled their 9/2 offer on YES and made it 7/2.
http://www.opencompany.co.uk/company/SC476660/hopi-energy-community-interest-company
Hopi Energy also started up in May so three months of something.
Elaine Mackenzie-Grossart dad’s big in Cairn energy world wide apparently.
Another ‘independent’ body for Auntie to filch choice quotes from.
My own independent research has found that the UK is frankly pish.
@misteralz
If you go onto the Autotrader website and enter the reg it tells you a bit more.
Can’t find that exact model on the RangeRover website though. You’d also need to know the configuration they have installed to get a retail figure for it. The five door ones seem to star at just over 29k
How can any Labour Party member feel happy about being a patsy for big business and the Tories?
I don’t think they can, and this will become clear when the result is announced.
@ Ian brotherhood
An Armageddon of nawbags?
A swagbag of nawbags…
I sure hope ‘Scottish’ Labour is happy with the company of its latest fellow travellers in the ‘Better Together’ camp.
Nice picture though – it is indeed set in the layby on the B946 between Newport-on-Tay and Tayport.
@Ian Brotherhood – a Vacancy of Nawbags
A scrote of Nawbags.
Re. Scottish Research Society, Interview 1. I don’t know what business Alexander runs, but surely he is either being incredibly stupid or disingenuous.
– ‘A total lack of business plan’. Is Alexander aware that HMG has ruled out pre-negotiations? Does Alexander know the result of the next Scottish election?
– ‘A Larger proportion of public sector workers, resulting in higher taxes’. Might this not simply be typical short-term Tory thinking, or lack off (see above). Does this gentleman seriously think that a refocused Scottish economy would remain static? We are told this would impact negatively on business and encourage a migration out off Scotland. Would Scotland’s new powers to raise taxes, gifted to us by Westminster, not have the same effect?
– ‘The Yes campaign is very divisive, in terms of the question it is asking’. So shut up and eat your gruel you ungrateful sponging jocks. ‘Tension growing in the “blood and soil” brigade as the Yes vote stalls at around 30%. The Braveheart squad are too stupid to understand the atrociously complex economics of the argument’ Business success is not always down to acumen.
The irony of referring to a “CHURCH OF SCOTLAND” service is breathtaking.
Conclusion – I’ll be kind and suggest he is simply a Tory numpty.
I can’t wait to read their “World is Flat” and “The sky will fall on our heads if there is a Yes vote” articles.
Ian Brotherhood
“Can anyone suggest a good collective noun for ‘nawbags’?”
A Scrotum of nawbags ?
A Confusion ?
A Parcel ?
For you Ian. King Creosote
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=42qxGm_0O0o
It’s ok Stu, I know the way to the naughty step.
@scrote
You mean a bawbag of nawbags?
Interestingly on Hopi and Navajo land in the US Southwest there is a massive strip-mine which pumps 3million gallons per day of water for a coal slurry line. The majority of natural resources in the US are located on reserved Native lands. The extraction of resources leads to disproportionate social, physical and cultural cost to Hopi, Navajo, and Pueblo communities. In 1972 the life chances and environmental problems throughout this area (Four Corners) became so intense there was a Federal move to designate the region a ‘National Sacrifice Area’.
So a very interesting and ironic name for this lot!
Another “politically neutral” think tank.
http://news.stv.tv/politics/281357-jo-armstrong-and-john-mclaren-to-run-fiscal-studies-scotland/
A clackerbag of Nawbags
This may be no more than a sniff of what to expect in the coming weeks. A new think tank appears today alongside a “non” campaigning group happy to do Scotland and her people down.
This is a pretty poor effort really and their justification is to provide the media with more pish to print.
We here have known for a long time that we are beat when it comes to money and the British media. What they don’t have is the passion and the committed supporters for a Yes vote.
Look at the evidence around you of people openly expressing a support for Yes, compare with those supporting No. As the days run in this disparity will only grow. You reading here are at the forefront along with the Yes campaign of making us more visible. I know you will all do your wee bit.
Keep talking and we will win.
So never heard of before vote NO pop ups out of the blue today, Fiscal Studies for Scotland, and the Research Society, with neat bit of omission from fatboy as he leaves out English donors from his list of donors, bit rude Bliar?
“Better Together campaign director Blair McDougall said: “While we’ve received a number of high-profile donations, thousands of individual donations have come in to the campaign in £5 and £10 amounts from people across Scotland.”
Mr McDougall told BBC Scotland that the campaign had also received £147,163.44 in unpublished donations under £7,500.
Scotsman, Telegraph et all will take whatever press releases they write and publish wholesale. BBC will then lead with whatever the papers say. As always. SO bloody predictable.
A Parliament of Nawbags… guilty of gross bawbaggery.
“‘The Yes campaign is very divisive, in terms of the question it is asking’.”
The one the unionists demanded you mean?
The jackals and hyenas are circling.
“Grossart?” Any relation to Mr Pecksniff – Angus Grossart?
On BBC Radio’s Pee-Em at 5pm, the Guardian’s former political editor, Michael White, with whom I had a week’s nasty spat in his column, tells us that voting Yes for Salmond – (be informed, Scotland’s democracy has damn all to do with Salmond) – is a huge ‘gamble,’ whereas voting No means voting for the ‘solidity and honesty of Darling.’
Darling, the man who flipped his house twice, who continued in the hallowed footsteps of Hapless Gordon, is reliable and honest.
Who in hell’s name would trust people like that?
Its telling that people on the no side have to coverup their allegience.They want to dupe people into thinking they are a nice neutral bunch of chaps with no axe to grind.Also yet another Tory donor from outside Scotland.Why don’t they just come clean and say.Stay with us Scotland we need your oil guys.
Oh look, politically neutral think tank Fiscal Affairs Scotland say we will be worse off by up to £910 each if we go for independence.
http://www.heraldscotland.com/politics/referendum-news/leaving-uk-would-cost-scots-up-to-910-each-warns-think-tank.24962689
@Jim Thomson
@misteralz
I’m going for it being the OTR price for a matching pair of Range Rovers for the directors of this group.
It’s strange that according to BT/NB/UKOK there is absolutely NO benefit whatsoever to independence , so i expect them to use the same arguments against UKIP , or have i got that wrong?
O/T
Next time you hear John Curtice see how long you have to wait before he says “The truth is…” to preface a lie.
And please share this alert.
What’s unusual about using a RangeRover? Doesn’t everyone in Scorland have one?
Isn’t this just a rerun of Vote No Borders?
We’ll see what happens tonight.
My concern is the poll – if it does say 60/40 in favour of No then I reckon the postal vote has already been rigged. The poll is simply to prepare the ground for an unlikely turnaround in the declining number of No voters.
However the farce of Clegg signing a “pledge” today suggests it might not have been rigged quite enough and they’re starting to panic.
If the west Shetland fields are what they are reputed to be then there’s several trillion reasons why a Yes vote cannot be permitted.
Things get nasty from here on I reckon.
Ask any nawbag if they think it would be a good idea to pay all theUK’s revenue to Brussels and rely on the EU’s wisdom to send us pocket miney as it saw fit.
A coven of nawbags?
The ‘dark side’ of course.
Debbie Edward’s just now on ITV news, “Salmond has it all to do. Yes are 14% behind in the polls”. Is that the Ipsos Mori poll cat out of the bag already. lets wait and see.
Icy – that STV article is bloody shocking – 5 times they mention this new think tank is independent. FIVE times just to make sure us thicko jocks get the message then yet not ONCE indicate where the funding is coming from…
They talk of “trustees” overseeing it but WHO ARE THEY???
Shocking propaganda!
The site never quite manages to get round to explaining how it can square not being a campaign group with simultaneously noting that “the Society is registered with the Electoral Commission in Scotland, as a pro Unionist group” and publishing articles with such academically-rigorous and balanced titles as:
“When did being a proud Scot and a unionist become a dirty combination?’
“Would you gamble with one million jobs?”
“Economic plans – What economic plans?”
“All Scots will Pay for Salmond Airport bribe”
“Salmond wants to have his (pound) cake and eat it too”
and the cheerfully optimistic “Scotland, a sitting duck for terrorists”.
Oh dear… 😀 😀 Imagine trying to portray your society as neutral and balanced, and then come out with classic No campaign scaremongering.
People of Scotland always fight hardest when expected to lose. Fight the British establishment and win. Vote Yes.
They give their address as 27 Queen Street EH2 1JX, I wonder if that’s just a mail box, or if there’s actually some bloke sitting at a desk, drawing wee funny pictures of Alex Salmond, and adding duff captions to them. Either way it has the feel of a front for the London based, Tory toffs.
Why is it that all these wealthy selfish Lordy types want to hold onto poor wee Scotland and will get themselves involved in all and any muck or propaganda at any cost to denigrate and besmirch a country and people who want nothing to do with their politics. They are invariably the rich upper class Home Counties and London establishment types, who lead and control all unionist political parties in Westminster and the HOL.
They are the types who rule UK and call the shots whichever political party is in power, these guys shout jump and the politicians (including Labour jump) that is the con of Westminster and the supposed democracy that we live under. It’s a con and has been since the vote was allowed to the peasants as the gift of the ruling classes. Over the years the nobs have refined and honed their control over their parliament and the kiddy on political parties, who are now just a front for the establishment and the political system is just a front to deceive the electorate and hold on to their reigns of power. They control the media EBC, STV and own the MSM and use them to control and steer the populace in the direction they want, to the ends they want. Totally corrupt governance of the country.
That is not going to change by their volition or conviction. The only chance we have is to get rid of this system and it’s operators by voting for INDEPENDENCE and setting up our own government system and having a written constitution. For the people by the people and get rid of these money grabbing selfish parasites once and for all.
If the rest of the UK is happy to live under that putrid system run by the scum of society then that is their business, nothing to do with me.
This scum only gets involved in Scotland’s politics because there is plunder to be had at Scotland’s expense and from the pockets of the Scottish people, especially the decent hard working people who are being fleeced and used by these arrogant nasty fraudsters.
The Scottish people should run their country, governance by the people for the people and that means all the people. VOTE YES FOR OURSELVES AND OUR KIDS.
FFS, where did fiscal affairs Scotland come from. Can anyone make something up and feed it to the media and they publish it. Seems yes they can.
One hour to go…
…In the Red Corner… Alisterrr Flipperrr Daaarrrling… ‘BoooHisssBooo’…
…And in the Blue Corner… Alexanderrr Salmonnnnd…’CheersYasssApplauseWhistles’
Popcorn at the ready 🙂
Obviously,everybody will be listening attentively to vote no diggers,while trying not to laugh out loud. (Or there will be no diggers in an Independent Scotland!)
I left a comment on the “terrorist” article asking them to reassure me that it was indeed a parody site.
I await a response with bated breath. NOT!
Anyone else noticed the beeb and ITVs instructions on how to interpret the debate?
Apparently Salmond is the all round debator with a smug attitude.
While…
Darling is the boring,quiet one who carries weighty words.
So that’s it then…it’s fixed.
Fingers crossed, legs crossed, eyes crossed, everything crossed. Best wishes to the FM for the debate.
Go get him Alex..
Cant help thinking salmond will be ambushed someway flipper would implode after 20min let alone 2hours
exciting stuff:)
I heard on the grapevine that the Holyrood Musical Society are doing Oklahoma this year.
Johann Lamont is singing, “Oh, What a Beautiful Moaning”.
Borris Jonstone guests to sing, “I’m from Surrey with a Fringe on Top”.
Jackie Baillie sings & dances, “Kansas, Err! Glesca City”.
Nicola Sturgeon is singing, “I’m Just a gal who cain’t Say No”.
Willie Rennie is performing, “Many a New Day”.
Tavish Scott performs, “Pore fud is Daid”.
Annabell Goldie, sings, “Lonely Room”.
Nick Glegg guests for, “Out of My Dreams Err! Heid”
Wee Ruthie to sing, “All Er Nothin”.
Guesting stars, Ian Davidson & Kezia Dugdale duet, “People Will Say”, and, “The Tories & the Labour can be friends”.
“When did being a proud Scot and a unionist become a dirty combination?’
On 1 May 1707 the Scottish Parliament and the English Parliament each passed an Act of Parliament to simultaneously dissolve and form the new combined Parliament of the United Kingdom of Great Britain.
“Would you gamble with one million jobs?”
No, Maggie Thatcher did that decades ago.
“Economic plans – What economic plans?”
The ones Westminster has to gather every last penny into the City and leave the rest of the country as debt- ridden serfs versus the economic opportunities afforded to the populace by an independent Scotland.
“All Scots will Pay for Salmond Airport bribe”
All Scots will Pay less for air travel. London Heathrow will not need a third runway.
“Salmond wants to have his (pound) cake and eat it too”
Osborne (towel server extraordinaire but not much else) does not understand that in order to prevent Scotland using the pound he must stop the pound being an internationally traded currency – in which case the business of the City of London will grind to a halt.
“Scotland, a sitting duck for terrorists”.
The terrorists, however, will be focusing on London, and the British (English) arms industry while the British (aka English) security services are focused on those damned Scots.
They seem to be trying everything to keep hold of us , you would think they would be glad to be rid of us scroungers… or am i missing something??
Ladbrokes over 55% Yes vote now shortened to 5-1.
I know who I’d rather have in my corner.
C’mon Alex, no pulling any punches, and sort that clown out once and for all
a Myopic of Nawbags
I am secretly hoping Darling loses it completely on one of his rants.It would be interesting to see if he really is the android from Alien and starts spinning round gargling white blood!
If not already requested, can someone please make sure there is at leas some commentary of tonight’s doings (a TV free zone here), please? 🙂
Mr Brofie,
You in England then ?
They mibee need JCB digger tycoon and Tory donor Mark Bamford for a loan o his JCBs to help Rory the Tory we his cairn? That’s why they’re Better Thegithir.
Okay , but apart from the Bank of England, penicillin,anaesthetics,encyclopedia brittanica,fax machines,syringes,golf,logarithms,mackintoshes,tarmac,microwave ovens,pneumatic tyres,radar, MRI scanners, television, telephones,thermos flasks, whisky,bicycles,colour photography,fingerprinting and driving on the left… what have the Scots ever done for us?
Let’s not forget the terrorist attack in Glasgow.Was in actual fact a panic move as the terrorist had intended to bomb an English airport.They were uncovered and attacked Glasgow instead.The act is horrible no matter where it is but Scotland is not a direct target for terrorist.They want to strike where the power resides and thats not Scotland.
kendomacaroonbar
Not quite, a state of anxiety mate. 🙂
whatever next eh?, mabye it’s time for a re-run of the “Wild Geese” set in Scotland 🙂
come back and help us please Sean !.
Naw kendo, some of us are too mean to finance the Beeb and too law abiding to cheat!
I think the debate is being broadcast on the net too.
A bawbag of naw bags works for me. 😉
Stu
Robert Peffers deserves a thumbs up for that list.
Time Mr. Brofie got some glasses. My brother called earlier about this, and I thought he’d lost his. 🙂
Postage stamps,steam ships,atm machines,the US navy,etc. Here are some more.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scottish_inventions_and_discoveries
@Stuart
Haw Haw Bags ?
@CameronB Brofie – watch it here:
http://player.stv.tv/
Cheers.
Quite a leap of faith putting our trust in Darling.
Its worth reading his book, or the bit about the bank crash in 2008 to really appreciate how badly wrong things can go for these guys in Whitehall. Its like he was standing watching an impending avalanche and he knew it could destroy the western economy but both Flipper and Crash did nothing but wait
Northern Rock was a clear warning but they still did nothing and it could all happen again very soon. And Flipper really wants his old job back.
http://www.theguardian.com/business/2013/jun/26/uk-regulators-banking-crash
marketing directors Hamish Cameron Alldridge and
Elaine MacKenzie Grossart
(who are also partners in Namaste Partnership Ltd – a business and events promotion company where interestingly Hamish has his directorship registered in the name of Hamish Cameron rather than Alldridge).
And where I wonder where Hamish & Elaine were when Scotland needed help to solve its poverty and poor health,its unemployment and lack of social housing ? As if.
Just another Tory backed PR Co designed to put the boot into Scotland’s independence aspirations.
Isn’t it funny how the Tories are only interested in solving their ‘problems’ and no one else’s.
And for those of you outside the territorial waters of the United States of Westminster, have a play with http://hola.org/
No idea why anyone would want to use it, but hey, you never know there might be some weird way of watching telly via it.
#JustSaying
For those out with Scotland, just google STV live.
Top of the page, no registering pish ect. Straight in.
Time to put the kettle on, break open the oatcakes and prepare the cheese board xx
O/T George Osborne shows his true colours, never mind welfare , spend monies earmark for the poor on HS2.
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2716383/We-spend-welfare-billions-new-high-speed-rail-links-north-England-says-George-Osborne.html
They really havn’t got their act togeather, otherwise they would have donated a JCB to Rory for a week and his cairn would be done sharpish.
Channel 4 News don’t seem to have got the memo.
Currently doing a trawl round Embra chatting to Yes & No camps. The No camp aren’t exactly .. errrmmm.. bright.
Is “cheese board” a euphemism for something smutty Paula ?
Quite sinister, that 4×4. But then big chav vans are a bit threatening as a rule.
The underhand tactics of the no lot know no bounds. Lots of no’s there, jeez, we need a YES, Surely, change is a good thing, just be good if the no lot would accept it and prepare to move on, while remaining friends, it’s the only sensible option.
@Defo & Paula
Stinking Bishop perhaps?
@BigRik says: 5 August, 2014 at 7:34 pm:
“What have the Scots ever done for us?”
Here’s a wee true tale for you. Way back in the early 1950s when I was just a Rosyth Dockyard appretice working on Ships. I was then attached to the Radar Bay. Now Radar uses waveguide to carry the signals to the aeriel on the mast. The waveguide is sealed & decompressed. Behind the actual cathode Ray PPI, (plan Position Indicator) display
there was a 4″ waveguide removable section for maintenance purposes.
We used to use the remove that section and use microwave radar signals to boil our tea water and heat our pies. Now why didn’t any of us ever think of inventing a microwave oven?
@Paula
I thought you were updating the intro to the Muppet Show.
Who is that playing Miss Piggy?
How do you think they will introduce a time delay into the FM’s comments? 🙂
Well the bacon sannies are ready. The Flasks are filled with tea & coffee and the plate of biscuits is ready too.
Let the game begin.
Gawn yersel Eck!
Ok Pot of TEA – check
Ash try %fags – check
Remote for TV -check
Time to watch Salmond v’s Darling.
Go Ecky Go Ecky Go Ecky (shoogling ma bum )
My money is Darling asking for help from bernie (help me rona moment)
See you in a few hours after a man has been tied by his own tongue!
C’mon Eck!
This is a huge moment for us and the broad Yes campaign.
He’s done it before (the Leaders debates in 2011).
Twitter hashtags for the debate seem to be #ScotDecides #Scotnight #Indyref according to a tweet from STV
When you are in a hole, get a JCB ….
Budweiser – check
Ash try & fags – check
Butterkist Popcorn – check
Remote for TV -check
🙂
Jim Thomson. mmmm
It’s got to have Blue vein’s
When STV say that they expect 1 million viewers for the debate, does that mean there will be 4 million watching or 200,000 ?
“the Act of 1854, permitting Scientific and Literary Societies to be set up to inform and educate the public on social, economic and scientific matters”
Another benefit of the Union! Imagine if we were independent, all that would be illegal!
mori poll OK
moving yes direction
I can’t get the STV player to work even though it says open to all UK. Useless.
Well the way things are going down here in the SUFF no one down will be watching … can’t get STV to play in any way shape or form. 🙁
And there is the first ‘too wee’! Give me strength.
There will be a bandwidth issue with the STV server, keep plugging away
STV player totally crashed. Very disappointed. 🙁
Anyone know how to get the STV player to work?
@Muttley79
Its not you its the STV website that has issues
Straight from the off, flipper starts with the Eck bashing.
mutley79
Working for me now. You have to join first. Go to http://player.stv.tv/live/
Took a bit before it finally came up. Got several error messages first.
Denial of OUR human rights that’s what I call it kendo. 😀
STV must be deliberately playing with their server to deny us the pleasure of watching Darling FAIL! 😛
FFS! How the fuck are we supposed to watch it? STV WTF.
Alistair Darling is lying, the polls have drastically altered in the last two year. Mr soundbite darling, it’s all he’s got…
@Muttley
Murray says you need to sign up first
@Murray
I have and it is not letting me sign in!
WTF, they are clapping ponsy
Well thanks STV. I know exactly what I’ll be doing first thing tomorrow and it will NOT be sending you a big thank you letter. I’ll be e-mailing my M.S.P. to fire off as many complaints as she can about the denial of service to the people of Southern Scotland especially regarding tonight’s Big Debate.
I have had my limit of promises and SHITE from STV. The time has come to drag them through a hedge backwards and over a bed of hot coals!
No messages to my e-mail account even though I have pressed the button about a thousand times. FFS…
mutley79
Took me 3-4 attempts over about 15 minutes. Was about to give up and it just started working!
STV
Viewers in Scotland, from the rest of the UK, and across the world will be able to watch the debate online with a globally available livestream on the STV Player. On Tuesday night, the normal requirement to register with a Scottish post code, will be lifted.
WHY, WHY won’t it work for me across the world in Frankfurt – the lying bas***s
Flipper’s flapping already. Brilliant.
Flipper lying outright now, blink rates going up!
And another attack on Salmond! Seems to be very personal. Also Darling doesn’t seem to understand democratically elected. Oh – he is losing it!
For god’s sake somebody tell me whats happening, I am at work and the debate is not on any radio channel, up date me please.
@muttley79
login using facebook. It’s still not streaming for me, but I am logged in. Login by email doesn’t work for me at all.
I cannot get into the stv feed it keeps asking me to sign in and then says there are errors. Is there a special feed for outside the UK
@stevie
Don’t use facebook. Can anyone who has it copy and paste the http://www…at the top, and type it on here?
“Best of both worlds” coming thick and fast.
@Bugger
The same c****** thing is happening to me!
Forget outside UK Panda, I’m in SCOTLAND and I keep getting the same as you for gawd’s sake!
Why on earth are we getting STV pundits mid debate?
Can’t get STV player to work here in Inverness. Hmm.
Does Darling usually wear spectacles? Is it to hide his blinking and his eyebrows? Or to try and make him look more serious?
I’ve found that after logging in, if you hit the maximize button the player goes into buffer mode. Still not working but at least something is moving onscreen.
What a joke.
Ad break – has Darling called time out to calm down?
Blinking rate going up.
Bugger (the Panda) youre not missing much. Usual stuff, its probably not going to change anyone yes or no. Loads of “Best of both worlds” from Flipper, Salmond saying what’s possible and why.
Darling was given a left hook after he said that Salmond couldn’t complain about Scotland not receiving the government they voted for, as he (AD) didn’t vote for Salmond. Alex hit back, the people of Scotland got the government THEY voted for…. big applause 🙂
Bloody hell!
After HALF A BLOODY HOUR it finally pops up on the computer screen. Thanks STV for NOUGHT! I wanted to watch it from the start NOT half an hour in!
The YESSERS are making plenty noise.
Ecky has Darling on the ropes this early
bloody adverts give him a chance to recover…. still this is gonna be some advert for the YES campaign. Hope not fear
did I hear right,darling said Scots could vary their tax?
Flipper looks like he’s wearing a truss.
@Rev Stu
Anything you can do? This is shambolic. It will not let me sign in, when I click the forgotten details, it is then not sending any e-mails to my e-mail address?
Round 1… Salmond on points.
Salmond should have put Captain right on his claim that the oil is running out.
too late to get a bottle of wine, Damn!
I am connecting from France: Same issue the User account sign in does not work but does work via Facebook/gmail etc.
After login
Then the player loads up …but… nothing is streaming…just me screaming!!!
Time4tv.com might have it on not sure but gets lots of stuff not on anywhere else
time4tv.com
Whew, BestofBothworldsometer already at 3, blinkometer off the scale!
Bastard STV. Only just got it working. I’ll assume Ecks winning…
15 mins with just repeating the same thing over 4 tabs finally got in – just in time for the first ads 😉
How did the opening statements go?
If Darling is wearing specs is this the sign that he is receiving instructions from stage left? 😛
Oh yes Alec oh yes!!!!
George Galloway now is it??
And another personal attack from Darling.
While STV’s internet seems to be breaking here’s an enjoyably funny diversion to laugh at one of the westminster bubble tory dominated comments sections much like the Daily Mail, Torygraph etc.
http://www1.politicalbetting.com/index.php/archives/2014/08/05/as-the-salmond-v-darling-debate-begins-ipsos-mori-publishes-a-poll-that-gives-salmond-and-yes-a-boost/
Just enjoy the outraged tories and far-right fruitcakes getting very upset. 🙂
Oh dear Darling doesn’t like getting facts thrown back in his even when it’s his OWN facts! 😛
There’s a link here apparently for those who can’t access STV http://zattoo.com/watch/stv – you have to sign in
Small numbers of No’s in the audience are getting upset and very shouty. You can’t blame them with flipper lying away making them look like fools. Ponsonby looking on like a twat.
Alex getting heckled on the subject of currency union
Debate getting bogged down on the pound issue
Don’t think we’re really surprised at that kendo. Still what do you expect from Darling and his flapping flippers? 😛
Straight upper cut there from F.M. OUCH! 😛
Salmond wiping the floor with Darling regarding currency.
Cindie
Thanks but Zattoo just lets me see French and Polish TV live.
Like so many people here, I, too, am having great difficulty in getting any sort of transmission after almost 40 minutes. I have no problems signing in, which I have repeated many times, but still NOTHING ON SCREEN! I am beginning to wonder if this is a deliberate ploy to stifle the whole debate. By the way, I live in the South West of Scotland, where we get ITV Border.
keep up the commentary please
Douglas MacDonald
They have identified you as a foreigner
Oh dear Darling certain;y does NOT like the TRUTH getting out there. He keeps talking over F.M. Guess he doesn’t want anyone else to hear the TRUTH!
Cindie
Zatoo working for me in South West – thanks
“Stupidity on stilts”
Flipper can’t even get the quote right.
There goes the stilts used by Mr Galloway. It’s a stupid saying.
Out of time for that session and all Darling could shout about was currency. Too angry, no argument.
Great Salmond Q and A, Flipper hysterical.
Darling getting laughed at now as he said he doesn’t call project fear their idea
STV player FINALLY working for us down in the South West now as well.
Darling bombed, he was only able to ask two questions. Time for Alex.
Q1. why is the campaign called project fear?
Flipper blinking like fury..
Darling bombed, he was only able to ask two questions. Time for Alex.
Q1. why is the campaign called project fear?
Flipper blinking like fury..
Darling avoids a question by…asking a question! It;s you turn to answer, ya numpty.
Flipper is losing it completely. Amazing stuff.
Time for F.M. to question Darling. Will someone please call for an ambulance for Mr. Darling!
Ambulance for Darling!
Darling getting ratty while Alex Salmond is a picture of calmness
TBH, Salmond didn’t do great on the curency issue!
Q2. who said that we would drive on the right hand sight road?
Q3 who said we would be attacked from outer space
Flipper furious and losing it
Darling asked about Project Fear and he avoids it like gawds knows what! He can’t shut up when F.M. is asking questions and speaking. Oh dearie me Darling is really getting rattled now.
Gggrrrr! Can’t get STV iplayer to work! It’s saying Hello and your in, but won’t let me see it. Is it going well for Salmond? Please say yes!!
I think Flipper is on the verge of doing a “please help me Rhona” type moment here.
Alex throwing out the Juncker statement. Will you withdraw your EU non entry claim. Darling – another attack on Salmond. Darling completely at a loss here.
It won’t let me get it on STV on demand saying some rubbish about a security violation with the video even though I can get all the other STV programmes. It will be full of lies and smears against the Yes side anyway STV are as bad as the BBC,
Why is Darling getting to ask questions when it’s no his turn. Gibe the ba back.
Darling coming across as a havering fud… perfect
Ahhhhhhhhhhhhhh! The FM was waiting for an answer to his first questions and the player freezes. Anyone else?
Darling refusing to agree to remove their false claim about Junkers statement. No surprise there then. BANG UK voting to come out of the EU Darling floundering all over the place!
Alistair is rapidly losing it. Explosion alert!
Looking at the audience 1 in 3 is clapping Salmond – it’s loaded….
Terrible choice of questions from Alex Salmond.
Err do big countries not have to balance the books too?
Is it only small countries who need to balance the books then Alistair
Oh dear smaller countries have higher prices in the shops!
All, this is good, thanks for the commentary, shame people having trouble watching it, there can’t be that many millions watching it to scupper the STV site. I think any heckling should be banned, that is just silly and childish. Hand it to FM for even agreeing to entertain flipper, who is of such low calibre in comparison to A Salmond.
When is Ponsonby going to start interrupting Darling here, after all it’s FM who should be asking the questions NOT Darling, he’s had his chance!
Bloody hell here we go. North Sea Oil is a volatile subject! JEEZ!
Whatever you do Alex do NOT under any circumstances mention the world’sd largest oil field off West coast of Shetland!
This link will work, it’s a direct link for STV: http://zattoo.com/watch/stv
Ah finally – he says we can go it alone. I might get difficult.Ah – not difficult now. I see.
Darling is not answering anything. The Chair must make him answer at least one question.
Flipper can NOT answer the question because he does not know the answer!
Have they turned Darlings microphone up higher than Salmonds? He’s easily drowning him out…
Really, really have zero respect for Darling. Total failure and total sell out…
I get that security violation warning as well just have to wait for the highlights.
Why wont Alex Salmond challenge Darling on Oil?
Now a break, while they re-hook the cables to Darling
Arrrghhhh Dugdale… Blurgghhh
Commentary from Nicola now. Kezia sat next to her, a lovely picture of pure, oozing hate.
spin room
# farce
Darling ready to defend austerity policies?
Is that Claire “ordinary mum” Lally in the background of the spin room??
This should be fun – Nicola and Kezia on to talk. Asking on the doorstep, cliche. cliche, yup Dugdale on top form.
Uninstall speaker drivers and reinstall, then it works
Next to Prof Tomkins??
nice one Sturgeon – slap to Dugdale…
Away while the grownups talk Kezia…
Did Dugdale just call flipper an expert?
Nicola won that debate…not that Kez will notice.
The whole thing is be coming at it of a farce due to Captains incesent rants
JEEZ!
When will Dugdale grow up?
Taxi for Flipper. Dugdale piles on the FUD, so so so so scary this Scotland running Scotland.
Zatoo works perfectly
http://zattoo.com/watch/stv
I can see the woman who portrays herself as an ‘ordinary mum who has seen the light and joined Labour party’ sitting at a table.
God alone knows what AS was thinking about kicking off his 12 minutes like that. Not the sort of flippancy we want or need. Raised his game after that but I bet AD couldn’t believe his luck. Get your act together Eck and get the Yes in the crowd roaring.
Some of the questions Salmond asked were bizarre. He put Darling under pressure in the last one.
I wonder if Darling will shut up long enough for FM to answer ANY of the audience questions, probably not!
Kezia Dugdale – is she a new panda? Seems the wee bears have proliferated over the last couple of years. Are we really sure there are more pandas than tories?
What a shame it went to break when it did. Is AD really going to get away with giving as an example the NHS doing well in the UK so we should stay? He had a hand in the ongoing destruction didn’t he?
Round 2 to Salmond, who is winding up Darling. Ponsonby needs to intervene a bit more.
Scotland has always balanced the books, and subsidises the disastrous Westminster policies, for which it doesn’t vote. Illegal wars, tax evasion,
Audience 1/3 YES clapping Alex Salmond 1/3 not decided, 1/3 NO clapping A Darling.
Flipper proud of his Crash role! what ever next
Debate?
Better Together Bullies Booing.
That is their intellectual level!
Oh dear, oned of the things about being part of the union is that we can transfer money from richer parts to the poorer parts of the UK.
Salmond should not have asked about outer space, Project Fear, and the right hand side of the road (driving). Complete waste of questions.
That was pretty pathetic from Darling.
Couldn’t bring himself to even say that Scotland could be a successful independent country.
Absolutely pathetic.
Don’t believe I heard Osbourne actually say no.
Oh dearie me why can#t FM accept or understand NO with regards the CU. Well guess what dear. We WILL be independent what are you going to say to your “furriner” relatives dawn suff when their pound goes down to junk status?
Now desceniding into the one-sided BT interrogation we expected..
Darling dishing out the personal insults left and right.
Salmond not lowering himself, but did manage a veiled reference to Darling being called flipper. Lol
Part 3 audience questions: back on currency, flipper saying he saved the RBS when they only had 3 hours money left.
Now Ponsinby having a go about Alex being disrespectful to Westminster by not having a plan B, ffs.
@Muttley
He drew out Darling to say all there true statements were a Joke…and he was laughed at by the audience
This is weird, according to the WhoIs search, the domain name belongs to a photographer’s in Dundee:
Domain Name: SCOTTISHRESEARCHSOCIETY.COM
Registrar URL: http://www.godaddy.com
Registrant Name: Scott Sigsworth
Registrant Organization: ICUsmile
Name Server: NS15.DOMAINCONTROL.COM
Name Server: NS16.DOMAINCONTROL.COM
DNSSEC: unsigned
ICUsmile:
http://www.icusmile.co.uk
Gee whizzzz Berine the Bolt ! Did he really ask flipper that question !
Ponsonby’s asking some good questions
Flipper says, he was one of those there at the bank crash:D
Alex now reminding flipper he was in charge when the crash happened.
Flipper on about Fred goodwin, alex said, YOU knighted him.
Ponsonby is also losing it as a ludicrous amount of time has now been given to currency when that subject is second last in the list when scots are asked about Independence subjects they are interested in.
OOMPH!
Yet another clean upper cut there from FM. You (Darling) were in charge when the banks went bust!
Money has flowed both ways and money has flowed INTO Scotland over last 22 years? Really Darling? Really?
I think the FM has made a few points for the viewers to consider… number one that the currency position of the Uk is simply a bargaining position…
Once you accept that – then the rest follows…
Love the way Salmond stands in front of his podium
Mr. Darling, do you have an address in Scotland?
Magic.
And the too poor question from the floor.
The NO plant
Some folk are so ignorant
Salmond is not very nice so I’m voting No. Contribution from BT plant.
Some pretty silly comments from the audience.
Jeeze – real bunch of britnatz nutters in the audience now…
Excellent. Some idiot from No is claiming it’s not scotland’s oil.
Nice punch to the face for Darling from Ponsonby…
The biggest major fail so far is from STV. Talk about over promising and under delivering on the streaming service.
I guess they have managed a world wide audience of ZERO.
The whole thing beginning to look like a stitch up
Ok – I’m now officially confused – Is Bernie a closet “Yesser”?
We’d be like Iceland not Norway then AD
Flipper on the ropes when Ponsonby asked about his role in the crisis which led to austerity. Sore one!
Alistair main residence is in London, where he ‘stopped’ the banking crisis. Ie caused the banking crisis. Alistair Darling lives in London he has no vote in the Referendum. Flipping his hoose.
Institute Fiscal Studies was a great idea for the No Thanks bettertogether.
Oh dearie me Darling brings up Ireland and Iceland both of which are bust … apparently, well at least they are according to Darling. What a MUPPET!
Ireland and Iceland are now bust, apparently.
Stitch up it is ? Bernardson knows who he is to pick from the audience.
Damn, Alistair nails it – declining oil. Vote no. Does it for me.
O.K. folks who wants to be the person to write to Ireland and Iceland and inform them that they are bust? 😛
Definitely sounds like Darling has NOT heard about the fantastic world’s largest oil field West of Shetland then.
“outer space, Project Fear, and the right hand side of the road (driving). Complete waste of questions”
I don’t know, we know about this kind of crazy stuff but perhaps it’s good to get the non-internet TV watching types to think about it too.
Darling is not adverse to bare faced lying it would seem. Given our debt we are bust too then.
@Quentin Quale
I’ve stopped watching after a couple of questions from the floor. They all seem rather too pleased with themselves and think themselves so clever and they are the only people to have thought of them. Spare me.
I thought Wee Eck got some good hits in earlier. Darling should have realised his ‘best of both worlds’ was a hostage to fortune with Austerity, the Bedroom Tax, child poverty etc and Eck hit him with all those barrels to loud applause.
So we have a Labour man looking far, far to the right of the SNP which will not down well with his base. Darling’s pathetic refusal to agree with Cameron was a good one. With his man on the ropes Eck just pummelled him. A TKO having to be rescued by Ponsonby there.
Got to say – the BT crowd are really, really coming across as a very nasty spiteful lot…
Jeez this is brilliant.
In the words of wee Charlie Flynn “Sometimes you got to be awkward to fight awkward.”
Go on Alec ask him an awkward question that he can answer without all his Shouty Shouty response.
We’ve not heard that before.
FFS don’t knock him out he might just win the sympathy vote.
There’s enough stuff here for weeks and I want to watch the rematch!
They don’t do irony do they?
Bernie a YES?
Create the vision honeys – it’s up to us, no-one else.
The only folk cheering Darling are the No mob and only a few of them at that
Salmond scores with pointing out that as cuts from Westminster come it puts great pressure on where monies can go.
I’m wondering, likes. He seems to be getting stuck into Flipper a bit.
Jeez, Darling stumbling a lot here, I guess his instructions are not coming too clearly via his headset. (specs!)
@Ken500 I thought that in my 9:21 post
I don’t think Bernie is a “yes” – perhaps he just doesn’t like lying c**ts…
Hang on shes just asked a question, are there not 350 folk there?
Come on,you all knew the bussed in audience,concerted attack thing would happen.
They use this to kill threats.
It’s pure psychological conditioning whereby a narrative is created and the mob mentality is left to take over.
Did anyone else notice two people holding both “?” and no cards giving the “No” count 7 to the “yes” count of 5?
Jo 90 had better specs and to be fair Better animators. I also think he had better parents…
Rev on twitter ‘audience are idiots’.
No Rev,people are idiots.
Think how stupid the average person is then ponder the fact that 50% of the population are dafter.
That is a good idea,we lose so many every year.
I think so too, Ken that Bernie is a yes.
The yes crew are ALL pseudo or real middle class, they just bad mouth and sneer at Salmond Scotland and Scotland’s people. They are your typical snob, nice intelligent well spoken, selfish people
They have no skill at the game, they just go for the man. Public school teaching, unfair play old chap.
Darling…blah blah blah…every soundbite, cynical manipulative bullsh*t.
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uknews/scottish-independence/11014836/Independence-debate-in-chaos-as-people-outside-Scotland-cannot-tune-in.html
Jacob Rees-Mogg, MP for North East Somerset, told the Daily Telegraph: “This could be symbolic of the darkness that will come on England if they go down the route of independence.”
Crap statement from Flipper. Tripping over his words, shouty and angry.
Gaun yersel Alex!
Closing statement – ambition over fear, Like it, Alex.
The people cheering on Darling most loudly and most enthusiastically on twitter and elsewhere online are mostly tories outside scotland. That fact alone says it all folks.
Darling is Cameron’s stooge and the tory funded No campaign have only lies and fearmongering to offer to the scottish public.
The giant elephant in the hall? our horrific press and BBC.
He nailed it at the end. Scots running Scotland, all the rest is detail.
Bizarre — not much about defence trident
not sure why AS mentioned aliens
Right – now to follow this up – been handed 400 pamphlets to hand out round the local area by YES Clackmannan – going to be busy tomorrow night 😀
Ths just fell into my inbox
*************** Dear Supporter,
Tonight’s debate will prove to be a huge, possibly decisive, moment in the referendum campaign.
Alistair Darling asked the questions Scotland needed answers to. The First Minister’s failure to offer basic answers was there for all to see. Even the audience was turning against him as time went on.
Alistair gave a strong performance but what matters more is that we believe his case will prove more persuasive with the remaining undecided voters.
The nationalists had arrogantly said this would be Salmond’s “Bannockburn” – it may yet turn out to have been his Waterloo.
Nationalists will be left wondering “where do we go now?” after conceding so many own goals in a debate they had billed as the game changer.
There is a long way to go but this has been a great night for our campaign and for Scotland.
Blair
Blair McDougall
Campaign Director
Better Together
Anyone who wants their country to be run by another country must be insane.
It is probably worth noting that those taking potshots at Salmond rather than asking a question were more your local Tory association member rather than the average Scottish voter. This is hardly surprising.
They aren’t going to speak to the average Labour voter wondering how to vote.
Can’t face another half hour of Labour in Scotland FUD from Dugdale.
Blah Blah stronger Blah Blah best of both worlds blah blah.
Repeat from the top ad nauseam.
Salmond got the last word.
Think I already know what the *ahem* panel think … outright win for Darling nothing else to see here please move along … oh look a squirrel!
I find it hard to believe that anyone would have changed their vote, including undecided, based on that debate.
I thought Alex Salmond got better as it went on. His questions started off pretty poorly – an academic point as Darling never answered anything and simply asked his own questions for himself to not answer!
Well three things Scotland has in abundance…..
Oil,
Water…
and
Traitors….
That’s my view btw – no reflection on WoS 🙂
Lets end the myth that Scotland can have a strong and successful parliament as part of the UK.
Last year, the unelected house of lords removed power over the renewables component of energy policy by amending legislation passed in the commons.
http://newsnetscotland.com/index.php/scottish-politics/8428-fury-after-unelected-peers-strip-power-from-scotland
This is our debate, this is our future, this is why many of us will be at Seafest over the weekend – please come and find us, we are the best social club in existence.
Saw sweet heehaw and heard the same.
Thanks to the folks who blogged here as it progresses.
I’ll need to wait until tomorrow when STV find their other Sinclair Z80 to double the bandwidth.
Dugdale – shouting is Alistair’s passion! Passion intae the wind, methinks.
Game, set and match to Alex Salmond. Flipper flopped.
Spotted an ‘ordinary mum’ in the studio audience…..
Well done Alex !.
And I’ve got ‘Alert Reader’ badges for all, I’ll be the shy one in the background.
Flipper’s got a sense of humour, according to Kezia. Wow.
Defo; “Scots running Scotland, all the rest is detail.”
…absolutely.
I would… nay should, be dissapointed with this crap… but I am starting to think that I am abnormally intellectual, compared to the average person.
I know that is not true, but the media in Scotland keep on insisting on reinforcing that belief in me.
YEE HA! It’s official. New powers are on the way. Just don’t ask Dugdale what these powers are cause they’re on their way … apparently!
I’m with the Panda…saw hee haw.
In any case, this is but a skirmish in the Air war. However the referendum will be won or lost in the ground war.
‘Darling missed a trick’ said the political commentator and didn’t take his opportunity to make the positive case for the union. Yes that does seem to be missing. Has anyone seen it, this positive case. Thought not.
Bernie is def a yes I think he put the word ‘flipin’ there – maybe just a newsroom bet or my wishful thinking ears.
First thoughts on the debate…come into my parlour said the spider to the fly.
Alecs banking on Cameron watching this and thinking “I can take him”.
Bar that,Darling was a numpty…what else could he be?
P.S. Don’t care about rallying cries.Who needs them when we’re winning.
Now tweeting no MPs. Had to turn off.
muttley79
The whole point of mentioning those questions such as driving on the other side of the road and Space monsters was to highlight the utterings of Project Fear and make a connection with the currency issue.
I think it worked.
Oh if only I had thought to paint a wall. I could have watched it dry.
We are no further forward. I doubt anyone was swayed to leave either camp by that.
Bernard was professional. I was surprised at that. Eck – cummon. If people understood percentages we wouldn’t have Wonga loans!
I shouted at the screen when Darling went on about the ageing population that it because our young people have to leave. Eck was less nimble than he is on the floor at Holyrood.
I am firm yes, but that currency issue has to be tackled. Referring people to page 4 of a document few people are ever going to read is wool. Just say we can have our own money – it can even shadow the pound ( many currencies shadow the Euro or the Dollar), or we can join the Euro. In all honesty I have thought for as long as I took an interest in economics that the setting of interest rates to suit the needs of the City of London is one of the main reasons we need to be independent.
Did the audience have to fail a test to get on btw?
Points win to Eck, but the bookies knew that already. Wasted 2 hours of my life there.
Douglas Alexander quoted as tweeting: “This was Alex Salmond’s Waterloo”.
Had he been interested in Scotland, he would have used Flodden.
Not Alex Salmond’s best performance, Darling did better than I thought he might, but, he still, for me, failed to put-up a convincing case for Better Together.
That he couldn’t bring himself to admit, Scotland could make a go of independence shows, it’s all about keeping hold of Scotland’s riches for them.
I’m glad I chucked the telly. though I hope viewers will have noticed AD simply trotted out FUD and the regular Project Fear meams. No substance, no answers and little dignity. Respect?
Verdict – NS by three falls. 🙂
Liquid Lenny – yes, that’s what I thought too. Set him up and knock ’em down. Still miffed that I missed Midsomer Murders, though.
My family are all brainwashed.
My Mum thinks it’s ‘UK water’s’
My wee brother says ‘Scotland would be fucked,we couldnae defend oorselves,whit aboot when the oil runs oot,in the EU wi Salmond,we’d nae money’
My Dad, usually quite a vocal No, is reassuringly quiet.I think he’s getting turned off by the negativity he’s hearing from my Mum and Brother and even jumped in to back me up a couple times.
Easy for the MSM to present that as a win for Darling. And the pre-arranged bombardment of ‘Salmond’s Waterloo’ has begun.
The only freakin country in the world where a giant oil and gas industry is a v v v bad thing.
Why us and we’re all in debt for over 50 grand sterling thanks to bettertogether hysterics like Darling. What is wrong with us?
@defo
Absolutely agree.
This was an opportunity to convert undecided voters and it was wasted arguing the toss over technocratic pish.
The most convincing argument for persuading don’t knows to Yes is the basic fact that we will get the government we vote for at each and every election.
Everything else is utter bollocks.
It is entirely possible in an independent Scotland that we will vote in a bunch of utter bastards to run the country who during their term in power make a complete pig’s ear of it.
But…importantly it will be the people of Scotland who chose them and we’ll take responsibility for that. At least we’ll have self respect.
The alternative is a repetition of Thatcher governments, Blair’s war mongering governments, Cameron’s austerity Britain again and again. Fucking things up for large sections of society in Scotland, and often the poorest, without a democratic mandate from those people of Scotland whose lives are most effected.
It was obvious that Darling was at his most awkward when he was asked whether he agreed with the simple proposition that Scotland could be a successful independent country.
This should have been Salmond’s line of attack all night on every issue.
Who the fuck was sitting tonight undecided, genuinely undecided, and was persuaded to vote Yes or No because of arguments over a currency union.
Jesus wept!
Anywhere else in the world would be laughing Darling off that stage, or worse. I’m alright jacks run the UKOK world
I just realised that if flipper does not have vote due to London address then Camerons excuse for not debating is also invalid.
Why did the Better Together chap have such a long stint at the end? They should have stuck with the neutral(ish) observers.
I can’t say I understand anything about the setting of interest rates (to suit Bank of England) but interest rates are very low in Norway too. It seems to be an international thing. If we had our own currency I doubt therefore that this would change. The reason for keeping the £ is to aid cross border transactions. The reason for keeping the £ in a currency union is so that we have a central bank in the bank of England.
xx Utopia – read you all later, we are going to win this, I feel it in my ancient bones.
Thanks everyone! I did not watch the debate live for various reasons but enjoyed it through this great WOS commentary – reminded me of listening to Scotland football games on the radio in the 1960s – very tense and exciting to listen to and probably much more entertaining than the real thing.
Poor stuff generally and these debates don’t suit serious politics.
They are very useful for scaremongering soundbites, most of which require careful and detailed responses and you don’t get the time.
Who could have guessed Darling would talk about currency, EU and pensions, eh?
And nothing else
I’m afraid it hasn’t scared the horses, the markets will be pleased. I really thought the FM would deal some knock out blows like how can a backbench labour MP debate on behalf of the UK Govt? What is the fUK’s plan B if it loses 10% of it’s economy?
Most of the no voters in the audience were posh middle class and English .Thankfully it will be the normal working men and women that will win this.That’s why the polls are wrong.The power is with the people Westminster ignore.These posh middle class people think everything is fine as they still have the two Jags in the drive.Its a revolution for the ordinary people that Yes will bring.The upper classes have always ruled over us and now its payback time.Stick your loud trousers and Rupert the bear jackets where the son don’t shine we are taking Scotland back.
What disappoints me is the number of people in Scotland that simply think we are unable to govern ourselves. This is especially painful given that Westminster is the current source of overall government.
Apart from financial crises, massive expense fraud, outstanding investigations into sex scandals, inability to reform, cash for questions, cronies in the House of Lords, illegal wars, national debt, … what else do they have to do to lose people’s trust?
Robin McAlpine should have been stood there making the case for Yes.
Most of the no voters in the audience were posh middle class and English .Thankfully it will be the normal working men and women that will win this.That’s why the polls are wrong.The power is with the people Westminster ignore.These posh middle class people think everything is fine as they still have the two Jags in the drive.Its a revolution for the ordinary people that Yes will bring.The upper classes have always ruled over us and now its payback time.Stick your loud trousers and Rupert the bear jackets where the sun don’t shine we are taking Scotland back.
I think if you take all the facts and crap of out it, Darling came across as an asshole and Salmond didn’t. That might be a win.
Technocratic pish. Yes, misdirection and obfuscation. Standard debating techniques to undermine your opponent and avoid the key issues. But Alex’s last word, that we need self governmeht because we can govern ourselves better was spot on.
@Juan P
It was obvious that Darling was at his most awkward when he was asked whether he agreed with the simple proposition that Scotland could be a successful independent country.
Not quite right, in fact just wrong. Darling was the most uncomfortable on being asked if he agreed with David Cameron on the simple proposition…
His difficulty was admitting to agreeing to a Scottish audience that he agreed with Cameron, nothing else.
Ponsonby very fair, debate a bit poor quality overall I felt
Think we all knew that before the debate started IS. Thanks for letting me know I’ve just wasted 2 hours of my very precious life. 😛
Really? Darling didn’t win that lol,a joke.
What a surprise – all the channels punting Darling as the winner….
Agree about Robin Macalpine.
The “undecided panel” from ITV was a tad surreal. None of them sounded very undecided to me.
As expected the media giving the debate to Darling
Nae winners, nae loosers tonight… Nae new info, but then I wasn’t expecting any…
+ & – on both sides…
I’m still voting Yes!
“A clear win then by Alastair Darling” What a fucking joke. Darling was the deer in the headlights. Totally useless and frozen to the spot. These silly cunts live on in alternative Universe.
Haha. fuck them, and ignore the idiocy of what is stated on TV. We all have eyes. Right!
ITV news very neutral there. Must be the hardest ever hitting vote no propaganda so far but I never watch ITV. We’re getting railroaded by our friends in the south.
Salmond had chances, going with project fear and other guff was a mistake, a bit deflated.
Two hours wasted, made worse by STV’s awful servers. Missed half of Alex’s closing statement and a good deal else because of their fucking servers. Also, the format still stinks and I’m angry at STV for pre-selecting so many Unionists for their Q&A. I think I counted four straight Unionist questions and pot shots and Eck wasn’t given a chance to respond. Darling jittery and nervous as early as the first five minutes. Body language very offputting with his finger jabbing. People laughing at him was beautiful. Shameful shouty behaviour from some Unionistas in the audience when Eck spoke. That said, Alex annoyed me when he refused to talk about the other options such as creating our own pound. Don’t think he was at his best tonight, solid but not outstanding by any measure. Think I’ll sit out the second debate if there is one. You learn nothing from it. I find watching Indy Panel Q&As immeasurably more enlightening and stimulating. That debate shite where you can barely string some decent thoughts together before the presenter moves on is soul-destroying.
Think BBC are allegedly going to be doing a similar debate next week. If so then I reckon FM has learnt a great deal more about where Darling hurts and is deep trouble and next week’s debate will hopefully be a totally different affair. I hope for OUR sanity AS gens up on Darling’s multitude of weaknesses and really presses home next week.
The media is already demoting Salmond’s contribution exactly as predicted.
They’re lining up the ‘disppointed’ candidates.
On the currency question only a buffoon of a politician would state his main objective can be jettisoned because he has a weaker one and will happily talk about that. Only an idiot would take up that negotiating position.
The point was made supremely well by Ponsonby: if Scotland votes Yes Darling is arguing from a position the Westminster government can and will ignore the will of the people because it does not believe in their sovereignty.
.. And ITV have done just that, an outrageously biased report showing undecideds as unanimous no ‘s after the debate. There then followed a blatant misrepresentation of Salmond’ s questioning, claiming that he was ‘asking if we’d drive on the right’ and not attempting to ridicule BT.
Like I say, MSM had their job done for them.
Alex badly advised,Darling win for me
HandandShrimp
The whole ITV News at Ten package on the debate was a stitch up
Creating the image that Alex Salmond failed
They even quoted the IPSOS MORI poll figures based on a poll before the programme , as a snap poll just after the debate (56% No, 44% No) Disgraceful reporting
The harder they hit Scotland running Scotland the better. People don’t flop like that ITV undecided panel so next time ITV, at least pretend you’re not the Torygraph, you clowns.
Well Salmond didn’t deliver a knock out blow to Darling but had him on the ropes a good few times. And he finished really strongly.
Another good thing is that Darling looked really shifty on TV. Did he just strangle a kitten before the debate? His body language was all over the place; like a toddler caught lying.
Bring on David Cameron!
I’m really laughing out loud at the guff spouted on the news that Darling won the debate. hahahaha what more do people need to know this is all a pile of shite.
Don’t be down folk, I’m still laughing. Do you think any that watched this in Easterhouse, Kirkton or Niddrie will believe their pish?
This was a clear win for Salmond and it was aimed at Labour voters, he could have done a bit more but not bad given the circumstances.
The lesson, if there is one, is that the independence campaign will not get a fair debate on the main stream media
In addition Alex Salmond should have focused on Scotland’s wealth and resources, putting paid to Darling’s crap about oil running out
Salmond should simply have been himself. I got the impression he was trying to act a certain way.
Overall I don’t think Darling will be disappointed with proceedings.
Sorry to say that was a poor performance from Alex. Most Wings supporters could have done a better job.
The big “mistake” by Alex Salmond was caused by the debate structure. The project fear questions were supposed to go one two knockout. One was driving on the right,two was aliens but the EC fear which should have been the serious knockout was not heard properly because of ” noise”
So I would say six points to AS,five points to AD and minus ten to the audience plants especially the one who said it was not Scotland’s oil because the UK issued the licences….International Law anyone?
At the best that was a draw.
I agree there is bias in the MSM, but we need to accept when we were not at the races or even lost. Tonight was possibly not a loss for Yes, but we failed in our ultimate goal. Winning over undecided voters towards Yes.
The currency issue is the weakest aspect of the campaign. We all know there are options, but Darling got Salmond into a corner and he just kept repeating about it being Scotland’s pound as much as England/UK’s etc.
We aren’t going to win over undecided voters with this. They want to vote YES! That’s why they are undecided.
A huge missed opportunity for Yes.
BT know they can corner him for the next one too with the currency issue and they’ll continue to hound that out now for the rest of the campaign.
As others have noted, nice to see AS stand in front of or at the side of his lectern in full view of the audience. I don’t think Darling moved from the spot he first stood on. What was he afraid of?
How many times must Salmond say that Scotland will be using the pound before numpties stop asking what currency Scotland will be using?
Can Darling explain how he draws the daft conclusion that Scots are ageing quicker than the English? I know twins, one in each country, who remain the same age. My English cousing remains six months my junior.
Tell you something else, the studio audiance very much clapped and cheered more for Salmond yet ITV news has just concluded that, as predicted, Darling won the debate.(I just did a quick review of the recording to confirm the clapap/cheer rate and it is true).
The UKOK audience had some bettertogether idiots but the audience was very switched on thank god. BBC debates are the same. This is not about AlicSamin, its about the people of Scotland taking back our country next month, or not.
@bookie from hell
Alex badly advised,Darling win for me
Are you just at the wind up or partook of a few?
Murray McCallum
Apart from financial crises, massive expense fraud, outstanding investigations into sex scandals, inability to reform, cash for questions, cronies in the House of Lords, illegal wars, national debt, … what else do they have to do to lose people’s trust?
I don’t think I’ll post the LSE link again 🙂 , but the Brits apparently think we live in a meritocracy, where there is a high level of opportunity for all. Instead, we are actually at the bottom of the developed world.
Guys,
We just need to up our efforts to talk to people that are undecided. The grass roots will win this, not a lopsided MSM hatchet job
Looks like the only way we can win this is footwork on the ground.
Disappointed. We need to tell voters what plan B is, and stress that it will only be needed if rUK cut off their noses to spite their faces.
Personally I would prefer no currency union as I don’t want to risk a Scottish currency damaged by being linked to a failing rUK economy.
SKY news just shown Darling getting all a flutter over the new powers *ahem* announced but the great six today. 😛
Just the usual guff… as i suspected, it wont change my mind in the slightest, NO voters are beyond help anyhoo.. the kind of people who live with their parents for decades because they obviously don’t like making decisions for themselves , perhaps NO voters are the ones who are too stupid??
Darling can lie as easy as pie, Salmond cannot and does not.
If you think UK.gov are going to further harm the English economy, possibly triggering another depression with a NO currency union, you must be mad as a fish.
Seafest – a great opportunity to answer the questions that people want answered. Even the currency issue isn’t the big deal that Darling tried to spin. See you all there Saturday.
As I write I’m away from home in a featureless Premier Inn. I got chatting to an English guy who was watching the debate during a fag break (or adverts as others call them). His opinion, bearing in mind that he admitted to being against ‘separation’ was ‘I have no dog in this race but that Darling’s incapable of telling the truth or answering questions’.
I carried on chatting (consider it practice for swaying undecideds) and he seemed to be convinced by argument against Trident, when I told him the money would be better spent on a conventional defence / search / rescue based military with no or negligible job losses.
We have to sort out the currency misconception. I am not a supporter of currency union. I understand the idea but most people don’t, that’s the problem. Alex is 100% correct Westminster needs Scotland but won’t say that. After a yes HMG need a cu to prevent the arse falling out of the UK currency and will need it PDQ. No doubt about that. Personally I want the GROAT. Doesn’t make me a bad person. Mmmmm
It would seem a great many of you Yes supporters are gullible as fuck. I completely disagree with anyone who says Darling won or it was even a draw.
Darling had the audience on his side for the currency crap. That was it! What more did he do that gave him “victory”.
Oh dear, not accusing anyone of anything, but just because some tit on the news declares a winner doesn’t make it true.
FFS, I really am laughing, so many are so gullible.
Let’s not kid ourselves, Darling scored big on currency. I’ve just had a message from Yes friends asking me to help with a reply to friends of theirs who were undecided but now claim the lack of straight answers on currency means they will vote No. This isn’t trolling on their part, they were genuinely undecided.
Not the same guy, but there was a Lord Anthony Bamford (of JCB fame) in the news a few days ago complaining that the EU sanctions on Russia were hurting his business. They may be father and son (the son who drove racing cars).
I think what many people will come away with is the image of shouty Darling and his wagging finger.
But Salmond could have been a bit more aggressive.
I understand he is being advised to stay calm to appeal more to female voters, but I don’t know if he got the balance right.
But a few good points were made, and Darling looked pathetic by refusing to admit Scotland could succeed.
Well that was a bit sort of crap.
Salmond should have wound darling up a bit more. People don’t like being pointed at and talked down to by a failed chancellor.
The usual suspects in the spin room and the expected claim at STV and News at 10 that Darling won. He didn’t win but did get off lightly.
Where did they get the unionist rotweilers in the audience?
@Fairliered
To offer a plan B accepts the premis that the No side are correct. It also sends out the wrong message, uncertainty, instability, risk. The Government are correct in there will be a currency deal. the No side are just milking the pre yes uncertainty.
Watching tired politicians battle it out is like watching paint dry.
Agree we need to take the politics out and replace it with more passion. Who the hell needs stats? Its about the heart for Gods sake!
Bring on Robin McAlpine and David Hayman, I say
Poor show from both tbh sounded like another Londoom political debate ,You said this on such and such a date. ,Wheres the bloody passion would swap him for a Tommy sheridan any day and Darling no even gonna comment own that scare mungrol fae doon south.
All i can say is thank Fek for the Yes/Aye activists oot there.
Energy prices to rise by 130 quid…in this current Union…when did we become independent ?
Indy_Scot @10.21pm
I agree the debate will be won on the ground, Yes will not get a fair hearing from the MSM.
Debi Edward and ITV news a disgrace. To many vested interests, the people will decide this one.
Thepnr
This was a clear win for Salmond and it was aimed at Labour voters, he could have done a bit more but not bad given the circumstances.
Totally agree. If the press was Scottish and not simply Scottish themed, you might hope they would pick up on this.
Alex doesn’t do humour well. I feel he missed a few good points also whoever convinced Alex to try the laid back attitude got it badly wrong. Chuck the false jocularity, you cannot bring it off Alex.
@thepner
Point taken and I should have prefaced it with the fact that Salmond was quoting something Cameron had said.
The fact remains thought that Salmond just needed to direct Darling to the audience and ask questions along the lines of:
“Do you think these people here today and the rest of the population in Scotland are as capable as any other country in the world of running their own affairs and doing so successfully?”
“If not, what is it about the people in the audience and the rest of Scotland that makes them uniquely incapable of running their own country?”
Also, I understand fully the position re option A for currency.
What is unbelievably frustrating is that the Scottish Government do have contingency plans albeit they are opting for the best choice.
The uninformed genuine undecided will be left thinking that we will not have any currency if the rUK don’t agree a formal currency union.
We know that’s pish because we have been engaged with the debate for a long time now.
Those who are just starting to engage with the debate won’t though.
We must stop endlessly debating technical details. It’s falling into the BT trap I’m afraid.
Salmond’s Waterloo?
… weren’t the Scots on the winning side in that particular battle?
Thepnr says:
5 August, 2014 at 10:18 pm
@bookie from hell
Alex badly advised,Darling win for me
Are you just at the wind up or partook of a few?
genuine how I saw it
Missed the first half hour so don’t really know how well AS did. I did get to see the rest however, in between screen freezes, and thought he did OK. I had hoped he would have been a wee bit stronger but hey it’s kind of difficult when Darling is doing his shouty man impressions. Unfortunately for Darling doing his shouty man impressions does NOT win votes. FACTS win votes As far as MSM etc thinking Darling had AS on the ropes well I think we all know that is shite! Right from day one AS has NEVER wavered from the response to “What currency will we use?” Just a pity Darling is as DEAF as he is STUPID!
If some Yes voters are not critical of certain aspects of the campaign, how are we going to win? I think and so do quite a few judging by the comments on here etc that Salmond did alright although there was no knock out blow and the currency issue will not go away.
These undecided voters are cautious. We need to spell out the alternative options.
Ivan McKee would have been great up there tonight. He comes across well, clears up currency, pensions and the financial issues.
The plan B does need an answer.
Everyone knows it is a bluff, but all Salmond has to say we COULD easily have a Scottish pound locked to the UK pound, but there is a 99.9% chance we would get an official currency union.
Seriously what was he thinking about bringing up pandas, driving on the right hand side and aliens. Forget about tonight and get out there and convince one more voter.
Let’s get this straight… the pound is the British pound , not the English pound ,it is listed on all international money markets as GBP, if we can’t use it , neither can they , and they know it,and since Broon sold off the gold reserves, pretty much all that is backing it up is our oil. Personally , i don’t care if we use the Drachma , as long as i can buy beer with it.
Nicola did a better job in the two short chances she had. There’s got to be some serious thinking before the next debate or it’s going to put a lot of pressure on the ground troops on the door steps.
@Murray M
What disappoints me is the number of people in Scotland that simply think we are unable to govern ourselves. This is especially painful given that Westminster is the current source of overall government.
Apart from financial crises, massive expense fraud, outstanding investigations into sex scandals, inability to reform, cash for questions, cronies in the House of Lords, illegal wars, national debt, … what else do they have to do to lose people’s trust?
Yes, it really is something is it not? That so many people in Scotland do not believe we could run our own affairs as well as anybody else. It mystifies me why people want to believe this. Some genuinely seem to revel in this state of affairs. It is something that is beyond my comprehension.
scrabbling for someone elses currency? We have one already-the pound.
Onwards, spot on!
@bookie from hell
wasn’t haven’t a dig my friend, we must look at things from the opposite ends of the sphere. I an optimist, if I wasn’t I would have given in long ago. 🙂
It sounds like Salmond let him off lightly, yeh I was one of the many that couldn’t get it…anywhere!
Why, oh why didn’t the yessers get the Rev in?
Beginning to think we need to crowd fund Wings TV for the remaining weeks and invite all these unionists in for debates. If they dared turn up to face The Rev.
No one else seems to be up to the job.
When are you going up Rev, to spread the Truth?
Personally …it wasn’t a good debate. Salmond ‘should’ have destroyed Darling. He didn’t. The questions on ‘driving on the right’ and ‘being invaded from space’ were poor and childish. Alex should have hammered away on the new powers that keep getting promised, and he should have warned people on the consequences of voting ‘No’. Not a great night to be honest.
Onwards
It doesn’t. To admit a plan B accepts the premis that the No claim is correct. It isn’t.
Currency dominated this so called debate and there is a reason. Firstly, issues around currency are complex and not well understood, if at all by the wider electorate. It was and is very simple to suggest that because Westminster parties say no to currency union that AS must articulate the alternatives, which there are. The reason he has consistently refused to openly discuss the alternatives is because these would immediately be used by the no brigade and the meeja to ramp up the uncertainty.
The no proponents are never seriously approached to explain why Westminster would by this action remove 10% of rUK’s GDP, affect the already teetering balance of payments and have significant consequences for rUK’s borrowing costs. This form of so called debate fails because it simply panders to the UKOK fear agenda. Big on statements of fear and completely lacking substance, and it is very difficult to counter this when many of the electorate are completely ignorant of the economic system operated by the UK.
So post match blether and all unionist meeja. ITV you’re as bad as the BBC.
Next time someone asks; “what currency will you be using”…
…the answer is; “WE WILL BE USING OUR OWN CURRENCY… THE CURRENCY WE OWN… WHAT THE FECK DO YOU THINK WE WILL BE USING FOOL?”
Good old STV… not so much reporting the news as creating it. Amazing they found 5 undecided voters who had switched to no by the end.
I can almost physically feel myself being manipulated.
If you believe Scotland can be a successful country but resolutely refuse to concede that point your integrity is questionable.
Oh god…here comes a fat twat on Scotland 2014…
And Prof curtice..
Sarah Smith ruled out “who won” and asked if there was a “game changer “
I understand folks wanting AS to come out and say what plan B might be. However, in my view, the second he does that he opens himself to further attacks of not believing in the cu. I actually think, for my sins, that by sticking throughout with his cu plan and stating that each and every time he shows himself to be strong of mind to carry through with this plan. The minute he starts admitting he has a plan B he, in some people’s minds, shows himself to be not so strong as he has made himself out to be so far.
The vast majority of undecideds are not going to make their minds up based on tonight. They will be swayed by our arguments and as far as currency is concerned our answer is short, sweet and straight to the point. We will be using the pound in an independent Scotland, end of argument. Whether it is as part of a cu or independent of cu as our own independent currency is inconsequential in my view. We will be using the pound!
I would love to hear the FM say this but I do not know how he can without seemingly to be changing his position and thereby opening the flood gates of attacks on him and the uncertainty issue.
posting lost, again
JLT: Salmond ‘should’ have destroyed Darling. He didn’t. The questions on ‘driving on the right’ and ‘being invaded from space’ were poor and childish.
Couldn’t disagree more strongly.
Salmond had to show how ludicrous is the No campaign.
I did not see much of the debate. However, I feel pessimistic at the moment. Salmond was not on form from what I saw. Darling was his usual self. Neither were good.
I think Yes really needs to decide if all this positive stuff is working. Salmond should have asked Darling about what will happen to the NHS in the event of a No vote. We know from Dugdale, Murphy that they hate being asked about this. The truth is that it is Sturgeon who is the best performer in the SNP, and has been for a few years now. Salmond looks tired to me. Yes need to restore the feel good factor because this feels like a defeat to me.
The fact is that there is a plan B for currency. So why can’t the SNP just admit that if Westminster for some reason wanted to destroy its economy by shrinking the Sterling zone and jettisoning petrocurrency status then Scotland would be just fine with its own alternative arrangements.
You can’t get away from uncertainty when talking about the future – surely people would accept that?
Not answering the question and constantly taking refuge in your soundbites just makes politicians look and sound like politicians.
Personally I think Scotland would be much better off getting shut of Sterling, the Bank of England, and the whole corrupt edifice of the City of London in one go.
The answer to this debate is easy. Get off your arse, get out there and tell them face to face. They and some of the posts on here have me riled.
I’ll fight twice as hard now in persuading undecideds. Don’t let the talking heads on TV depress you, make it motivate you. That will piss them right off. LOL.
@Muttley
Remember, the general view is that the undecided will win the vote. He has to direct the positive message to them. AD’s job is to poison that message. As are the MSM’s which they are milking tonight.
Can’t believe Alex didn’t quiz darling about food banks, child poverty and Trident. A wasted opportunity. Hopefully he’ll do that next time.
Groats??!? We had £Scots when we last had our own currency. A groat is just a fraction of a £. Like a half crown or a shilling if you can remember those.
Thepnr says:
5 August, 2014 at 10:36 pm
@bookie from hell
wasn’t haven’t a dig my friend, we must look at things from the opposite ends of the sphere. I an optimist, if I wasn’t I would have given in long ago.
Darling wobbled on more powers,but Alex looked rabbit in headlights,plan B
more disappointed
Grouse beater.
This TV debating needs to be better. AS missed an opportunity here. It would have been better to have Darling squirm and try to clarify the new (never coming) powers. Also, as said, a warning on what is likely to come in a No vote would get folk thinking. We need to make folk question things if we vote ‘No’. Too many believe it will be the status quo. THAT is what Darling sold tonight. personally …I hope Salmond does better next time round. Another average performance could be costly.
Many of the earnest undecided will have watched this. Others will not.
Well, on the currency issue, my wife said” Yes, he really should tell us what currency we are going to use after independence”
So I whipped out a couple of tenners from my wallet and showed her that they were Clydesdale bank tenners. That’s what we will be using I said, we’ve got our own money at present, and that’s what we will be using after independence. I even explained that for every Scottish pound issued, a pound Sterling is lodged with the bank of England to back it.
I was feeling pretty pleased with myself having explained it to her satisfaction then I saw the glint in her eye.
Damnit, now she knows I’ve got 20quid…
I bet she has it off me and spent by lunchtime tomorrow.
🙁
The minute we say we won’t or can’t use the pound is the moment we get derided about ten sporrans for a groat and who will take daft Scottish currency.
Whether we like it or not Better Together will stick to this attack. What we have is the lesser of two evils to deal with.
The average punter is not concerned about what the currency is as long as he or she has enough of it but Better Together are relying that the issue can be used to indicate uncertainty. The minute we introduce a Plan B they will be shouting for a Plan C.
I don’t think tonight’s debate will have a lot of effect. It is impossible to sufficiently clarify even lightly complicated issues in this sort of debate.
I think the balance of the audience looked a bit dodgy but Darling came out better than I thought he would.
I agree with everything Edmund said. The opportunity of putting better together under real pressure over the Bedroom Tax, food banks and the attacks on the poor was missed.
Thought a couple of good points from the spin room particularly from Bernard.
I’m not too keen on politicians – why can’t I have a say in my own country? Who offers democracy?
Clapometer says 60-40 in favour of yes after the closing speeches.
Reverse polarity on the pre-match “poll”.
Overall, not a great format but it’s a start.
The currency question (plan B) will send many in search of that section in the white paper.
Anyone got the details to hand?
Might be worth posting for any undecideds looking in.
I’m getting fed up with the cliches from both sides.
Alex needs to inspire.
Its not enough just to say that we shall have sterling because it’s better for us both. You need to demonstrate it.
The unionist parties’ donors are the the Uk supermarkets. But these companies make more profit in Scotland than our population share because Scots like to eat.
They have invested huge amounts in Scotland and are going no where. Their profit margins are low so they need to ensure they are competitive. No way will they allow the UK government to affect that profitability by exchange charges. Lidl and Aldi are waiting in the wings to gobble up their Market. It’s called competition. Why didn’t Alex tell it as it is?
There are hundreds of examples of why Independence is better for them which folk can relate to
but they are not being heard.
When BT say best of both worlds, they forget to say it’s Zahadoom and LV-426 they’re referring to.
I’ll get ma spacesuit. 😉
I think the risk of looking weak on a plan B is outweighed by the risk of looking shifty by refusing to even admit there could be another feasible option.
He can still make it clear a currency union is 99.9% likely, and it is his plan A.
Looking over it again neither speaker got enough time on any issue to answer it properly.
This most certainly helped Darling who was basically relating the scaremongering issues all of which require explanation in detail.
Ponsonby was fine
you have to remember AS is trying to communicate with a different voters with a different profile and perspective than our merry band ….. disappointment voiced here may indicate that the tactic was successful. Nevertheless I would like to see Nicola up next and put the No brigade on the defensive by hammering home the consequences of NO (Tory governments and austerity in perpetuity)
A few financial bribes would not go amiss wither
Fatboy using ITV undecideds all 5 go no fraud! He’s got to be bluffing. No one is that desperate.
Dire performance by Alex. Where was our First Minister in this? Was he threatened..drugged…didn’t recognise him. Greatly admire him but we cannot lose this campaign….bring Nicola or Tommy Sheridan in….heck Bugger the Panda … Lesley Anne as second choice………..please!
Eck should nae mention the Aliens, we were belittled, one thing is for sure and the BBC news at 10 made great play of it, he gave them something to belittle us. I wish Eck had brought up trident and that the biggest find ever of oil has been found west of Shetland (hence Cameron’s visit there before his hols)
@Square Haggis
Clapometer ? eh ?
RE Currency, it really is quite simple, the pound is backed by over 1.5 Trillion pounds of Scottish Assets, if it is no longer backed by those assets its history.
Uk official Debt will rise to over 4 trillion pounds on Sept 30th 2014, with a yes vote taking such a large asset
away from the pound at around the same time if there is no currency union then how do you think the International markets will react.
Have faith, there is a plan.
@Edward says:
The whole ITV News at Ten package on the debate was a stitch up, creating the image that Alex Salmond failed
They even quoted the IPSOS MORI poll figures based on a poll before the programme , as a snap poll just after the debate (56% No, 44% No) Disgraceful reporting.
I fully endorse the stitch-up belief, and would go as far as saying that the ITV report was complete and utter fakery.
I believe that this debate was aired live (OK, perhaps a few seconds lag), and ended just before 10pm, so how did ITV manage to interview a selection of supposed DKs at the outset of the debate, who had all turned to the No argument by the end, get all the interviews edited, and the entire piece prepared for the lead story on News at Ten, whilst it was still broad daylight outside?
Check the interviews on News at Ten. These supposed DKs have supposedly been interviewed post debate, yet it is still broad daylight during all the interviews, with no street lights, or building lights on. A total MSM fake.
Every political campaign has a big weakness. If it wasn’t the currency issue it would be something else. There’s a weakest player in every team. Take them away and hey presto you automatically have another one. You think Obama didn’t have a weakness? The other side had even bigger ones…
Well, according to my Facebook feed, I have a whole lot of friends, family and friends of friends who are voting ‘No’.
The most common reason – hatred of Alex Salmond it would appear.
Closely followed by – too scared/too risky
Sadly, I didn’t read a solitary post that put forward a convincing and positive argument to keep the union.
If ‘No’ does win this, then we truly are a fucked up nation of scared imbeciles.
@Haggis
Alex doesn’t need to give them an excuse.They make it up anyway.
I think Blair Jenkins articulated the Yes case well…possibly better than the debate. The comments from the people coming out were good.
This is our country and is ours to win, there is no champion, we have to win this. We are our children’s future – See you at Seafest darlings.
I’ve been saying to any undecideds I’ve talked to that we’ll use the £ in the short term whilst the economies are still in step. No risk to Scotland. Then a new currency when it suits underwritten by oil.
I also point out that if Scot Gov white paper Plan A was to ditch the £ from day 1 then the Unionists would be jumping up and down to say that this would be calamitous for cross border trade. So this denying the use of the £ is utterly political.
Nice one Marco… I need to check that out
I thought that Alex was a clear winner with undecideds. A fine First Minister versus a shouty compromised Tory collabo.
Perhaps he could have used Darling’s blood and soil nationalism remark against him but maybe The First Minister is keeping his powder dry.
These Unionists will destroy themselves because of the unnatural position they adopt. Who the hell wants to be ruled by another country that supports the oppressors of Palestine
Grousebeater – yes I thought Mr Salmond was leading Mr Darling into a ‘bear-trap’ with those superficial questions and Darling was indeed getting rattled and answering just how I think Mr Salmond intended. The laughter from the audience, however, masked the real question which asked him to deny that these points were made by senior unionists and Mr Ponsonby, realising the trap had sprung, deflected the issue.
Mr Salmond’s demeanour, tone, composure, body language and presentation – directly to the audience in front of his lecturn – plus his final statement gave the strong impression of a politician in command of his brief. Perhaps we expected too much of him when our expectations were of a ‘rigged’ or at least skewed debate structure and the likely presence of certain audience ‘ringers’. Judging by the audience reactions, I would say the majority were in favour of Mr Salmond.
We now have STV at the same game. This idiocy of the Plan B question. I’ll count them tomorrow as I go through the recording but Salmond definitely said an a number of occasions that Scotland would be using the Pound. Now there is no way in the World that anyone can prevent an independent Scotland using her own currency. That currency is the Pound Sterling.
So there is no need for a plan B, C, D or plan Donald, bloomin’ Duck. The question of a currency union is quite a different matter. Put it this way Scotland will use the pound and no one can stop her. Whether she uses it from within a currency union or out with a currency union is entirely up to the Kingdom of England. The problem for England, of course, is that a currency union would be of more benefit to the Kingdom of England than it would be for the the Kingdom of Scotland.
Eck did as well as could be expected, in circumstances where he was fighting Flipper,and a skewed/planted audience who were stage managed by a (now exposed) biased broadcaster.
We (me anyway) expected too much, maybe not expected, hoped for too much. The knock out.
If your needing a lift, think about what way most of those you have spoken to recently have decided to vote.
It’s a landslide Yes. Isn’t it ?
Get a grip dolls – stop speaking the language of the past, talk a language of the future. Is it really sensible to equate our vision with that of the rest of the UK?
We stopped canvassing at 7.30 tonight. Every voter I spoke to, especially the undecideds and the soft Nos, said they were going to watch the debate…
I doubt they will have learned anything to persuade them to change their minds. This TV debate idea is pish – it’s pandering to the TV stations’ ideas that it’s all a kind of video game with winners and losers.
I had a long conversation with a soft No, who ended by saying – “at least you’ve come round – I haven’t seen anyone from the other side”
Ignore the bloody television – get out on the streets. Be the catalyst!
Salmond said its Darling that ramped up the NO to currency union scare, which is probably true but how to prove it in debate. Ofcourse Darling triggered the NO currency union blast, he’s got no control over anything, and may well never have again, but he can get the ConDems to threaten no CU.
Hey, what did you expect other than an MSM setup. Sorry but I really am pissed off with regular posters on here finding fault. You must have been watching a different program from me.
As for those posting shite, not interested.
Duds you are falling into a trap, how disappointing that you fail to see that.
AS missed a great opportunity tonight. He should have nailed the currency issue once and for all. I tell those who ask about it that if the rUK won’t accept our terms for a currency union, then we will do as the Irish did when they left. I also point out that Ireland leaving Britain was hardly amicable but they used the pound for decades, eventually calling it the punt and then deciding that the Euro would be better.
I also point out that New Zealand did the same and that at present the Falkland Islands, Gibraltar, the Channel Islands and the Isle of Man all use the pound.
As Gerry Parker said above the notes we already use are Scottish notes. They have to be backed by deposits in the Bank of England which would be lost to them on Independence. Most people are unaware of any of this and it makes them think differently and question why rUK would not want a currency union.
Kendo, I am a Yes voter, and I know why I am voting Yes, but for those not interested but still getting the vote, the BBC news at 10 had a total p!sh take. Not sure where you get the square Haggis from, you don’t know me.
@ Kininvie and others, we are the future not them, come on honeys, it is our country.
I hate to say it, but I think this was a points win for Darling. Alex has been badly advised – he should have filleted Darling the way he fillets JoLa in parliament. Thought Nicola was good for the few brief moments she got.
If there is another one – I think I heard the BBC are going to do one – Alex should follow his instincts and go for the jugular. That’s what he’s good at.
And they need to put Nicola forward more – she’s good and she’s female which is important given the proportions of male/female voters supporting Yes.
There’s still 6 weeks to go so all is not lost. But this was a missed opportunity.
Another point worth mentioning is the MSM mantra that all polls show No with a clear lead, indeed Ponsonby mentioned it a couple of times during the early stages of the debate, so why was the poll on the Daily Record website ignored, which showed Yes on 91%, against No on 9%? Pro-BT media corruption? Pro-BT media liars?
I’m so bored with talking about currency union and EU. It is just so boring, it has all been debunked months ago. It’s just a diversion, the no campaign all know it is a load of crap. Dull, dull, dull. I suppose getting folk to switch off is what they are after.
Our strategy of knocking on doors and talking about choosing between social democracy or neo-liberalism, or fighting poverty, saving the nhs or closing the inequality gap is what will win it for us.
Hi Haggis Hunter honey xx – we will win!