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Wings Over Scotland


Some things are simple

Posted on March 14, 2017 by

Judging by the first 24 hours, we’re in for a two-year festival of utter horror from the UK and Scottish media. Yesterday saw a never-ending parade of metrosplaining idiots dragged willingly in front of cameras and microphones to pontificate their clueless and mind-numbingly ignorant drivel about Scotland.

It wasn’t possible to keep track of it all, because it was frequently happening on five channels at once, and it was harder still to watch it for any extended period of time without hurling a brick through the screen in frustration at the offensive stupidity of it.

Feeding into that was a stream of Scottish politicians who actually did know better, but who are too catastrophically dim to adapt to changing circumstances and had no strategy other than to endlessly repeat the same cretinous soundbites over and over.

(Adam Tomkins in particular was ubiquitous, spending what felt like several hours on various airwaves reciting the same brainless 10-second schtick forever.)

The constitutional politics of the UK and Scotland are in flux, and many aspects of the situation are complicated. But quite a lot of them aren’t, and if we’re all going to make it through the next two years without stabbing each other in the throat, it’d be a lot better if everyone accepted the things that are definite, empirical, indisputable facts.

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FACT 1: THERE IS A FUNDAMENTAL CONFLICT REQUIRING RESOLUTION

Scotland voted to stay in the UK in 2014, and it also voted to stay in the EU in 2016. It cannot have both of those things. They are, unavoidably, mutually exclusive.

That conflict has to be resolved, and the only remotely credible way to do it is to have another referendum in which those two options are presented clearly and honestly and the electorate choose which one they prefer.

It is clearly not acceptable to say “But Scotland voted No in 2014 so it has to do whatever the UK says now!” when that No vote was secured on an absolutely explicit promise that it meant staying in the EU, when we now know it means the opposite.

A victory won on a demonstrable fraud, as Lance Armstrong would unhappily attest, is void. You can’t say “I suckered you, but it’s done now so you have no comeback, ha ha!” and expect to be treated with any dignity and respect. (Unless you’re “Rangers”, of course, but let’s not get into THAT can of worms again right now.)

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FACT 2: SCOTLAND IS DIVIDED OVER HAVING A SECOND REFERENDUM

The line repeated ad nauseum by every Unionist yesterday was “the vast majority of Scots have told us in poll after poll that they don’t want another referendum”.

This is self-evident drivel, based on selectively and semantically torturing poll data far beyond the point of endurance. It is plainly absurd to assert that roughly half of Scots want independence – which is what every poll has shown for three years – yet that they DON’T want the opportunity to vote for it.

An eight-year-old child would laugh in the face of anyone making such a proposition.

It is equally true that half of Scots don’t want a referendum. But the other half are only divided over the precise timing, ie whether they want it to happen in 18 months or a couple of years. To try to pretend with a straight face that “I want a referendum in two years” really means “I don’t want a referendum” is starkly imbecilic.

Public opinion is pretty evenly split, and only a liar would try to tell you otherwise.

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FACT 3: THE ISSUE OF A MANDATE HAS BEEN SETTLED

However, as it happens the opinion of the public in this matter at this point in time is irrelevant, because the public has already made that decision, in May 2016.

So all-consuming is the panicked insanity of the Unionists that Willie Rennie and Alex Cole-Hamilton of the Liberal Democrats felt able to go on TV and radio at the weekend insisting that the SNP hadn’t won an election in which they secured a landslide bigger than any achieved by Margaret Thatcher or Tony Blair.

It’s alarming that professional politicians apparently fail to understand the most basic principles of Scottish and British democracy. In both Westminster and Holyrood we have representative parliaments, not delegative ones. Any policy for which a majority of votes can be assembled is a legitimate one.

(Don’t want to take our word for that? Ask Ruth Davidson.)

Besides the practical legalities it carries additional moral weight if it was expressly detailed in the governing party’s manifesto, and that’s quite undeniably the case with a second referendum. The SNP’s 2016 manifesto spelled out in the most unambiguous terms possible what would constitute the trigger for one:

In the full advance knowledge of that policy, the electorate delivered the SNP back to power with a larger vote share than the next two parties put together, and the scenario duly unfolded. In a Parliament which was specifically designed to prevent majorities, the government will nevertheless be able to assemble enough votes to pass a second referendum bill, and the result of that vote becomes the de facto will of the people.

Democratically, that’s the end of the matter. That’s how Parliament works, that’s how things are decided. There is absolutely no requirement for one party to get 50% of the popular vote, nor for it to win a Parliamentary majority on its own. If you don’t like the rules, either start a revolution or suck it up.

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FACT 4: A POST-BREXIT REFERENDUM IS THE SAME AS A BLOCKED ONE 

A few of the marginally less demented Unionist pundits (such as Alex Massie and Hugo Rifkind) are beginning to coalesce hesitantly around the idea that while Theresa May cannot defensibly flat-out refuse a second referendum, she could grant one under the condition that it was delayed until after the UK had left the EU.

This, however, is like allowing a condemned man an appeal against his sentence, on the condition that it was only held after he had been executed.

Scotland being forced out of the EU against its will is the entire justification for a second referendum. The sole purpose of the referendum is to give the Scottish people the chance to escape that fate. A delayed referendum obviously fails in that purpose, and is therefore not fit for that purpose. It is a non-credible option.

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It would be a better world for everyone if the debate from this point on was founded on mutual acceptance of these four unarguable facts. We’re not building our hopes up.

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428 to “Some things are simple”

  1. Betty Boop says:

    Concise and to the point. There should be no toleration of arguing against facts.

  2. osakisushi says:

    For comedy relief, I made the mistake of watching Sky News Papers Roundup 1/2 hour last night.

    Hopefully this level of utterly nasty incompetence continues until IR2 – the guy from DM is probably worth more votes than No Truth Ruth.

  3. Liars always make simple thing “complicated”.

    At the last Referendum we were telt that an Independent Scotland could not stay in the EU, but England could. Now we are telt that Englerland can come oot and we cannae stay in, even if we are already a member. Complicated? Lies?

  4. Quentin Quale says:

    An excellent distillation of the facts. Indispensable information (as usual) for us when we encounter questions from people wanting information but basing their arguments on newspapers and TV coverage.

  5. Robert says:

    Maybe add that the “once in a generation” comment was a personal opinion of one person not a SNP promise.

  6. Robert Louis says:

    Excellent, excellent summary of current situation. If only we had other journalists within the UK prepared to put their ego’s and sense of colonial global dominance on hold for a few minutes to actually write in a similar rational way.

    The democratic mandate for the indyref 2 is incontrovertible. It was, as shown above, set out in clear unambiguous terms in the SNP manifesto just last year. The SNP were duly re-elected.

    Sadly, I think this time around will be no different to the last time, with the media (including Channel 4 news) having already spent the last 24 hours spouting wholly demonstrable lies and unfounded speculative nonsense not based upon facts.

  7. One_Scot says:

    A lot of information peddled about Scotland and Scottish Independence since yesterday has just been out right lies, especially from the BBC.

    Even today, Ben Brown telling us that people in Scotland don’t want another referendum, we would be out of EU and the Spanish would block us. Fortunately his guest pointed out most of his failings.

    However, the point is this, the whole of the unionist news media, TV and print can just tell lies, and they will tell lies, and there is nothing to stop them.

    If we do lose this one, I believe it will be solely down to the power of the lying unionist media.

  8. harry mcaye says:

    On Fact 2, I believe many have referendum fatigue and will switch off from any debate until much nearer the time, that’s if they engage at all. It was dispiriting to read some friends on facebook last night saying they are sick of it, time to get on with living your life etc. I don’t know how they voted last time, I suspect Yes, but it seems they are switching off. Will they switch back on?

    I would hope any campaigning doesn’t start until we’re well into 2018. We have the council elections to focus on, then folk will need a break. The last thing we need in my opinion is street stalls everywhere this summer and autumn.

    I’ll certainly not be doing my usual door to door leafleting until much nearer the time and hopefully this time, the Yes campaign can give us something a bit more credible to deliver than the pathetic Yes paper.

  9. Graeme Doig says:

    A source tells me that the moon doesn’t want to come out tonight such was the level of the howling at it yesterday.

  10. John says:

    All these soundbites helped us lose the last referendum , the constant parade of Unionists on every TV channel, being allowed to spew their venom . It will be exactly the same this time but I think they will really up their game . I think they will want to kill off independence once and for all this time . Our hands are pretty much tied as we have no media on our side ,( excluding yourself of course ).

  11. Dennis Nicholson says:

    Lies and (most of) the media will continue to be our biggest enemies. The trick is going to be not to lose our collective rag and keep on trying to put the alternative view…

  12. jfngw says:

    Little hope as the BBC are still scouring the EU to find people that will say Scotland will need to go to the back of the queue. Heard it again at 10am on Radio 2 news.

  13. Doug Daniel says:

    The last point is equally true for certain independence-supporting commentators, who argued for Brexit on the grounds that the EU was an undemocratic, corporatist behemoth, even though every man and his dog understood that a Leave vote would end up with the hard Tory Brexit we’re now seeing unravel.

    It’s particularly true of those who were too cowardly to publicly back Brexit for fear of siding with the Tories, and having gotten the result they clearly wanted deep-down without having to get their hands dirty, they don’t want to have to nail their colours to the mast by making the argument for Scotland to leave the EU. And they know they’d lose anyway.

  14. Lukas Scholts says:

    The Unionists want Scotland to vote on whether to shut the stable door or not after the horse has bolted.

  15. geeo says:

    Al Jazeera have a very good article by an Alistair Sloan…

    Should Scotland and N Ireland leave the UK after Brexit, the term ‘Little England’ will really come into its own.
    http://aje.io/pefc

  16. Scott Borthwick says:

    If the unrelenting waves of pish flooding from a panicked media are anything to go by, your sensible words are likely to fall on deaf ears.

    Still, we live in hope.

  17. alistair says:

    Stu – you are no doubt correct a huge torrent of crap is coming our way.
    Why not start a new fundraiser to get you “hands on” help so you can do what you are good at, and others help out with all other tasks (e.g. edit a new WBB, distribute etc.)

  18. Graham says:

    As I posted on Wee Ginger Dug:

    We need a centralised page or site that comprehensively debunks every unionist myth: about not getting into the EU, having to use the Euro, pensions, oil revenues, trade figures, whatever other trite tripe they come away with. We need to be able to direct naysayers to one comprehensively-researched website that will answer any and all of their questions. Because if we can’t, it will never fly. It’s too time-consuming to have to go round the net researching stuff with figures that may be challenged. We need the correct figures and answers in one place. period. One site, comprehensively catalogued, with subsections for various sections: financial, sociological, international, etc. Easy and clear to navigate, with a decent search engine. Would do it myself but don’t know how.

    That way we don’t have to argue, we can just point people in the direction of the truth and let them do their own research. If they even want to believe it’s the truth anyway, mind you, cos all of this braindead ‘fake news’ and ‘alternative facts’ American rubbish, basically existing to cover the lying orange-hued bahookie of an insane president, has done the idea of consensus reality and information a great deal of harm. Still, if you can give them an answer to their questions…you just never know who we could convert. And the postal vote MUST be monitored by an independent country or agency. PERIOD. Not falling for that Tory-counted rubbish again.

  19. Walter Scott says:

    It was great to hear John Humphrys has his mojo back! After recent gentle pawing of almost all politicians he has interviewed in a chummy giggly way. Fiona Hyslop was treated to the old Humphrys this morning on radio 4. A marked difference in manner. Humphrys loves the clubby in-crowd kind of politician who will wink back at him when he’s licking their face like a puppy. The SNP are held to a different standard of questioning.

  20. Marker Post says:

    The big difference this time is that Brexit negotiations will be plastered all over the media. I can only imagine that they are going to be messy, and will lay bare the full idiocy and sheer unpreparedness of Westminster to deal with them.

    Incidentally, has anyone seen any reaction to the devolved powers? I can’t imagine that Westminster is going to be too happy to even discuss devolved powers coming back from EU while there is a referendum on the horizon. Or maybe those will be the focus of their next “vow”? The next meeting of the devolved administrations should be interesting. Waiting for some reaction from Ireland too. This could all get very interesting indeed.

  21. Eppy says:

    On BBC Scotland phone in this morning, Stephen Daisley started by correctly quoting the “once in a generation opportunity” quote by Alex Salmond but by the end he was talking about a “once in a lifetime event”. A very careless slippage in the language.

    I have previously been given the chance of a promotion but didn’t get it. Less than two years later, when a new, and even better, job came up, I went for it and got it. Much the same applies to choosing a house of a type that doesn’t come on the market much, or the chance to travel.

    Not getting the opportunity the first time does not mean that you can never take any opportunities ever again. What sort of a nation would that make us if we refused any future opportunities?

  22. Macart says:

    No, I’m not holding out much hope for that either. The meeja and political class over the past two and half years, but particularly yesterday, have already set the bar pretty low. It appears they’ll easily limbo dance under that and still have room to wave their hands.

    Great dissection as usual Rev.

    Anyroads. This time round I’m not really up for debating the same tired old bullshit with the bubble set. Nor am I up for answering every fucking question imaginable on possible hypothetical diverse future scenarios ad nauseum.

    No. This time I’d rather the opposition answered some questions. They have plenty to answer too. They won last time out (we’re all aware of the hows and the whys). They won and they didn’t deliver better togetherland.

    They won and when the economic poop hit the fan, their broad shoulders looked decidedly stooped. They won and ships weren’t delivered. They won and oil workers lost their jobs and wage packets in the thousands. They won and our last remaining steel works were endangered. HMRC was dismantled, retailers shut down en masse.

    They won and austerity worsened. Pensions became a joke, benefits have been slashed or discontinued altogether. They won and went ahead with a referendum which has placed our membership of the EU under direct threat. It doesn’t matter whether you agree or disagree with that membership as a Scot. It does matter that the decision was taken out of the Scottish electorates hands against their express wishes and against not one, but three legally binding mandates. A referendum, a GE and an SE result.

    It does matter that we’ve been told our settlement, our opinion, our vote, our partneship is completely worthless.

    THAT matters.

    So answer the damn question. Where is the Better Together YOU promised the Scottish electorate?

  23. scotsbob says:

    Why do people think that visiting a polling station more than once every couple of years is too much too manage? I can get down to the local school on a weekly basis if necessary.

  24. Luigi says:

    I don’t think that May will point blank refuse a section 30 order. However, she will definitely try to stall a Scottish referendum until after BREXIT.

    I understand a consultative ref may be held if May refuses point blank, but what if she just keeps stalling? What if she promises consent, but not now. What then – does Nicola agree to hold it late, just to secure a legal referendum, or does she tell May to take a hike and hold a consultative ref?

    Interesting times. 🙂

  25. John Edgar says:

    How can the EU take May and Co seriously when there is turmoil now over the constituional situation in the UK?
    I wonder if there are smiles on the faces of EU officials today? The Scots have tossed a caber into May’s muddle!
    She has to watch her back now, two fronts opening, even the MSM down south say she has brought it upon herself, check the Guardian on that!
    ConservativeHome are coming up with Vow2, albeit minus Gordo, offering a “New version of Britain” to Scotland.
    What utter nonesense. May had her chance at the conference in Scotland and simply snarled!
    This new Britain they talk about is all about being the force in the world, nothing about equal partnership at home or even DevoMax!
    Nicola Sturgeon’s sense of timing causing the postponement of Article 50 (denied of course by No10) was perfect!

  26. Cadogan Enright says:

    Yes Highland did a good montage of UKOK baddery

    https://yeshighland.net/about/galleries/scotref-newspaper-front-pages/

    @REV – why don’t you run a ‘Unionist Myth Busting Site’ referred to by Graham above?

  27. Terry says:

    Alert – Tommy shepherd on daily politics now.

  28. Fireproofjim says:

    OT
    Tommy Shepherd on BBC2 Daily Politics. Now.
    Should be good.

  29. Luigi says:

    IMO a consultative referendum would be highly problematic for the yoons. How would they approach such a no-win challenge? The non-binding nature of a consultative referendum may seriously affect yoon turnout, but a YES win would effectively be the end of the union.

    Aye, Nicola should push May into a corner on this. No delays no dragging of feet. Get her to refuse a ref, and hold a consultative one anyway.

    Barely 24 hours since the campaign kicked off, and the yoons are already in meltdown.

    Interesting times. 🙂

  30. Rev. Stuart Campbell says:

    “Why not start a new fundraiser to get you “hands on” help”

    Dude, we’ve actually got a fundraiser HAPPENING RIGHT NOW. Donations still open for nearly three weeks 🙂

  31. Indy500 says:

    Kezia Dugtits on 5live this very second trying to push these canards.

  32. bobajock says:

    There was me watching 100 days (yesterday evening – BBC News 24).

    Bloke in UK, Woman in USA (both presenters).

    Turns out both were Tory politicians in waiting. Actually made my other half (English) shout at the screen. Simply belittling Scotland and spewing out Tory edict.

  33. Reluctant Nationalist says:

    Rev: “Scotland being forced out of the EU against its will is the entire justification for a second referendum.”

    Careful now. You’re a man of the people, Stu (sincerely) – no need for you to echo the party line. Many layers to thissssssss.

  34. Indy500 says:

    Kezia Dugtits on 5live now, spluttering and stuttering her way through these canards

  35. Rev. Stuart Campbell says:

    “Careful now. You’re a man of the people, Stu (sincerely) – no need for you to echo the party line.”

    No, that is the clearly stated stipulation as per the SNP manifesto. It may not be the reason that everyone wants independence, but it’s unarguably the justification for having second vote now.

  36. sydthesnake says:

    succinctly put Macart, couldn’t add to your comment, very well said.

    Syd

  37. Macart says:

    @Luigi

    It’s more difficult for May than that. We don’t an indeed never really required a referendum of any kind. That is simply the preferred method of the SG and its much to their credit.

    All that is required is specific mandate.

    If May declines or fudges the route of referendum, then a snap SE or wait for a GE will do just as effectively. The SNP need only seek a specific mandate on a manifesto commitment in a legal and binding ballot.

    PM May is in a hard place of her OWN making. As the FM stated, ‘we didn’t ask to be here or be put in this position’. We didn’t start or cause this stooshie. I’d like to think though that we’ll finish it. 😉

  38. schrodingers cat says:

    Stu
    I understand why one would want indyref2 before the uk leaves, the idea from nicola being that we will know the shape of the eu deal will be by autumn 2018-spring 2019.

    however, the prospect of no deal is very real, indeed, anna soubray and an snp mp have said that treeza is set to storm out of brexit negotiations after the german elections this autumn. Indeed, if indyref2 is held in spring 2019, there is no reason why treeza couldnt just pull the plug 2 weeks before indyref2.

    I think we are likely to be out of the eu before we can hold indyref2

  39. galamcennalath says:

    The foundations laid out plainly and convincingly. Only an imbecile would challenge those points.

    But hey, I’m quite comfortable for the NO campaign to proceed in an utterly imbecilic manner!

    They really are going to find it difficult to put together a coherent case for the Union. Last time they struggled and they had to make all sorts of promises to change the nature of their Union to win. This time, a hard Brexit isolationist Tory ruled Union is going to be a very difficult sell.

    So, ideally they will continue to flap about in the gutter bleeding support.

    Everything has changed, sort of. Here’s a good article from three years ago which makes even more sense now with Brexit …

    http://archive.is/OEmfS

    “Britain is in a state of self denial, sitting at the bottom of European league tables, but convinced it still rules the waves. The aspirations of the SNP may seem ambitious, but all they are really proposing is to be a normal European country.”

  40. TheWasp says:

    Playing #scotref bingo listening to Kez on daily politics and got housey-housey in 45 seconds

  41. Muscleguy says:

    On EU statements it must be borne in mind that Article 50 has not been activated yet. The letter has not even been written, apparently, let alone sent yet.

    The EU cannot talk about what ifs. Once Article 50 has been formally activated the prospect of keeping hold of 1/3 of the landmass of the treacherous UK, a part with a long history of independent nationhood with many of the trappings of that status intact, with large oil reserves, enormous renewable energy potential, the largest, most productive fishery left in the EU, the best qualified population in the EU and the place which voted strongly, in every area to Remain will change their tune.

    Already our friends in the EU are urging the Commission to change their tune, those voices will grow. Many of our EU partners are hurt and angry about Brexit and welcome the prospect of iScotland as a genuinely constructive partner. We will, along with the Irish, be the Britain they always wanted but never got.

  42. Robert J. Sutherland says:

    Macart @ 11:51,

    I like that. On the front foot, not the back.

    Asking the questions, and not least that vital one: whatever happened to “Better Together”?

  43. DerekM says:

    Yep Rev those be the facts.

    The other fact will be the yoons will lie their silly little heads off again.

    But there is a big yoon elephant in the room who are they going to get to lead better together mark two and will they call it better together again.

    The return of better together.

    Not so better together as last time.

  44. Dr Jim says:

    The Question: The Poll:

    Perhaps the referendum question might be rephrased to ask “Do you believe Scotland is a country” Yes or No

    If the answer is Yes then it’s self evident that all rights privileges and power accorded to every normal country should be the same in Scotland

    If the answer is No then you accept the proposition that Scotland although allowed a name is a province of England and all power should then be returned to the government of that country

    I’d be really really interested to see the outcome of that question, can we do a poll Stu?

  45. geeo says:

    Tommy Shepherd on Daily Politics worse than useless.

    Owned by Dugdale ffs !!

  46. Famous15 says:

    Kesia Dugdale call ing Tommy Shephard a liar on Daily Politica. 15 Billion black hole grrrrrrrr

    Now Adam Tomkins saying SNP has no mandate. Grrrrrrrrrr

  47. Macart says:

    @Robert J. Sutherland

    *Waits patiently behind front door to pounce on first BT Rep that chaps*

    Grrrrrrrrr! 😀

  48. Mike says:

    Fucking Bastard BBC. Listening to pound shop Ruth and Tommy Shepherd. Poundshop left to rant and rave a pack of utter bullshite and lies unchallenged while Tommy gets interrupted the very second he opens his mouth.
    Nothing Pound shop says is challenged. Nothing!
    The 15 billion deficit lie the value of NS Oil the mandate to hold the referendum. All of it spewed out by pound shop none of it challenged or questioned.
    Tommy could barely utter a sentence before he was pounced on.

    AAAAAGH Fuck em all.

  49. Scott says:

    Kez speaking about revenue for oil down would someone ask these people where the Revenue goes Fuel duty vat all duties go to London and we get pocket money.Ask these questions a Tory I asked about this mumble,mumble.

  50. Socrates MacSporran says:

    You’ve gotta laugh at Diity Doug, squealing on Daily Politics right now:

    £15 billion deficit – Aye Right, that’s under UK rule.

    Collapse of oil price – let’s look at this. In September, 2014, the price of Brent Crude was roughly $100 per barrell. The UK government’s tax take was 70% – $70 per barrell, of which Scotland got 10% – $7.

    Today Brent Crude stands at $51.66 (let’s call it $50).

    So, at a 70% tax take, an Independent Scotland would get $35. Aye, oil is a hardship to us.

    Then, Adam Tomkins – the Earth is flat. I fear his head will explode somewhere between now and the day of the referendum.

  51. galamcennalath says:

    harry mcaye says:

    Will they switch back on?

    One word …. Brexit

    I cannot see the negotiations and the future portrayals of the UK being anything other than a monumental shit storm.

    Most importantly, perhaps, I also believe the unfolding future vision of the UK is not the one many/most Scottish Leave voters expected. The economic chaos of a hard Brexit awaits at the bottom of the cliff edge. Scots will be queueing up for the YES escape.

  52. Mike says:

    And now that utter twat Tomkins is left unchallenged while he also spews bullshite about a lack of mandate and legitimacy.
    Tommy constantly interrupted over and over. Can barely get a sentence out.

    Absolute bastard of a channel.

    FFS lets get an early anti BBC protest going ASAP! Before I lose my TV to rage.

  53. TheWasp says:

    Tommy Sheppard playing a blinder on Daily Politics

  54. Black Joan says:

    Walter Scott @ 11.49 Yes, Humphrys was on true UKOK form, as was Naughtie on the same programme, kindly offering up “too wee, too poor” vox pops from Paisley.

    Any SNP people and Yessers generally who find themselves in front of a BBC microphone should preface their answers with a reminder to the public (and the interviewer) that we all know the BBC’s charter demands that it supports the continuance of the “precious” Union.

    There’s yer impartiality.

  55. Holebender says:

    Ahem… the Latin phrase meaning to the point of inducing vomiting is correctly spelt ad nauseam. Just saying.

  56. Macart says:

    @Holebender

    Yeah, already spotted it after I’d posted. (shrugs sheepishly) 🙂

  57. Mike says:

    Jesus Christ Teresa May cant even keep a straight face as she says she has been working side by side with the devolved nations of the UK.
    Corbyn has already caved in over a hard Brexit the Government now has its mandate to do what it wants and he is now standing arguing for a Soft Brexit.
    UNfuckingbelievable.

  58. Sarah says:

    There is another danger in delaying the referendum to late 2018.

    Businesses and research bodies plan their activities several years ahead. Whilst in the EU, Scotland has been part of many academic and scientific joint research projects – the funding decisions will now be made on the assumption that Scotland will no longer be available. This will cost jobs with the financial/fiscal knock-on effects.

    The same applies to business planning.

    This is why I fear that it is almost too late already to announce a referendum, let alone declare that it won’t be held for 18 months.

    I hope someone can reassure me that I’ve got it all wrong!

  59. GrahamB says:

    Mike at 12:34
    There’s one on Sunday 26 March! For more detail see
    https://gb.eventbu.com/glasgow/bbc-bias-peaceful-protest/1315246

  60. schrodingers cat says:

    seems dugdale and tomkin agree, treeza will/should NOT oppose section30

  61. Macart says:

    @Arbroath 1320

    If you’re reading L.A., we might need to spring clean the dark room. Get some air freshener, flowers, whale song mood music, maxipak of headache pills.

    That kinda thing 🙂

  62. heedtracker says:

    Great read, will use relentlessly:D

    Although its like being in the eye of a hurricane of Britishness out here.

  63. Muscleguy says:

    Meanwhile not only has the EU sunk big money into the proposed high capacity interlink electricity cable between Aberdeen and Norway but Nova the tidal energy people have just received EU cash.

    http://www.energyvoice.com/otherenergy/124716/nova-secures-eu-funding-revolutionary-technology/

    I know there are things like institutional inertia but these suggest the risk/benefit calculation has taken no account of the Brexit. Now why might that be?

    Westminster might be dialling back on renewable energy, in part not wishing to generate too much good news in Scotland. Watch them sell of the defence assets like Fort George really quickly before we take full control of them.

    There will likely be another fire sale of oil and gas exploration rights as well. Ensuring the proceeds will accrue to the Treasury in Whitehall, not Edinburgh in iScotland. There will be a lot of that.

    But the EU will come to the party to replace the UK as a keen investor in Scotland’s renewable energy generation AND our ability to export it to the EU and EEA without having to push it through Little England.

    If the EU do build their interconnect spine up the middle of the North Sea then it would connect that pipe to Norway to the entire continent.

    Stuff the oil fund, we will be able to fund a stonking Sovereign Wealth Fund out of electrickery exports alone.

    The EU sees its energy future as part serried ranks of solar thermal plants and solar panels in Spain and North Africa. Sundry wind and hydro generators and nuclear on the central continent and stacks of wind, tidal and wave energy in the North. We aren’t the only northern European country with lots of little islands with fast tidal races around them.

    We did a sea kayaking course off the West Coast and were given a crash course in reading a sailing chart with kayaking in mind, noting that many races are too fast to kayak against. So you either have to time your course so it running in your favour or you have to ship out and wait for the tide to turn or slacken. Little gaps between small island which can easily accommodate a couple of tidal turbines at least. We can leave the monster at the top end of Jura to roar undisturbed but we can take some energy from the rest.

    The trick will be to extract enough revenue from them for: the local community, the council and Scotgov without killing the golden goose.

    The best thing about tidal energy is it is almost entirely predictable unlike wind or rainfall. In hundreds of millions of years when the moon is too far away to generate the tides of today it will not be so good. But then the landscape will have changed until then we can make hay while the moon orbits.

  64. Mike says:

    @Graham B

    Thanks for that. But why isn’t it more widely known? This is the first Ive heard of it.
    Who ever is organising this needs to get it out there mainstream ASAP.

  65. Malcolm says:

    Saw a real peach of a newspaper summariser on BBC World News earlier by the name of David Buick. Usual “Scotland is a basket case and you will all be eating grass ” type pish. Because, uniquely amongst Northern European nations of less than 10 million , we cannot possibly cope without Westminster.
    Interesting to look back in Hansard and see similar comments about India, Malta, Rhodesia, Aden, Cyprus etc etc.
    Just the standard Westminster condescension.

  66. schrodingers cat says:

    corbyn going on the issue of no deal

  67. John Munro says:

    The BBC is already in full propaganda ministry mode already. Have a look at today’s ‘Daily Politics’ where the abysmal Jo Cockburn acted as helpmeet to La Kezia and the ubiquitous Adam Tomkins and an extra opponent for Tommy Sheppard. Quite extraordinary bias.

  68. Swami Backverandah says:

    George Saravelos, currency strategist at Deutsche Bank, believes that sterling could fall much further, and close to parity with the US dollar:

    “I think the market is slowly starting to realise that Brexit is anything but priced in.”

    “How can you price in an event of incredible complexity that has never happened before? We remain very bearish on the pound — our forecast is for a move close to $1.05.”

    The currency’s tanking.
    Well played May.

  69. Ken500 says:

    Scotland raised the sand without Oil revenue £54Billion. The year before £50Billion + £4Billion in Oil revenues. The Oil ring fenced Corporation tax is 30%. Plus 10% supplementary tax. Since Jan 2016. In 2010 – oil price was higher. PRT was 50% and Supplementary tax was 30% = 80%. Osborne raised it 11% to 80%. PRT on fields before 1993 is 35%. The Oil sector is picking up but higher Oil prices can mean higher prices. Swings and roundabout.

    Look it up.

    The UK raised £533Billion in taxes. Take £54Billion away. = £479Billion divide by 11 = £46.5Billion (pro rata). The rest of the UK Borrows and spend £100Billion. Hinkley Point, HS2, Heathrow abc Trident all a waste of public money, with more credible alternatives.

    Scotland could save £1Billion on Trident, £1Billion on minimum pricing. £3Billion? Tax evasion. Gain £4Billion in Oil revenues (UK tax regime), Not pay £3.5Billion on rest of the UK debt. = £12.5Billion. Scotland could borrow £7Billion to invest in the economy. Scotland would get more in CAP payments, renewable invest and Grants from the EU. £20Billion+

    The Tories have taken £20Billion from the poorer and given it to the wealthy. Cuts in NHS/Education and welfare benefits.

    IR (5million pop) raises €50Billion in taxes and pays higher pension and welfare benefits. More fairer and equal.

  70. schrodingers cat says:

    barrossa principle getting aired,

  71. Vestas says:

    I’m actually hoping May is stupid enough to put a block on indyref2. It’d be a lot easier to win via the ScotParl on a snap election.

    We’d also be gone before May has a chance to pull the plug on A50 talks.

    I’m not sure even May is that stupid/arrogant though….

  72. Roboscot says:

    As with 2014, it’s noticeable that international press coverage is often much better informed than the UK media.

  73. Cuilean says:

    Pound falls again today. Just wait til Article 50 triggered along with Article 30 to see that slump turn into a collapse.

    I also fully expect the EU, after Article 50 triggered, to confirm that Scotland will be welcome in own right.

  74. Stoker says:

    Mike (12:29pm)

    We feel your pain Mucker, we feel your pain! I blame the person being interviewed not the interviewer.

    All our people are well aware how the script goes by now and should be ready, when being interrupted, to firmly and politely state something along the lines of; I see you’re allowing whoever to continue spouting a load of nonsense uninterrupted without challenge, if you extend me the same courtesy I’ll give you the truthfully version.

    We know how these lying discredited barstewards play the game and we should be ready for them each and every time. This time around we need to put a bit of bite into our strategy and responses, see McCarts post at 11:51am, it’s time we put the Yoon Goons on the canvas with haymaker after haymaker.

    Mr or Mrs Nice, when dealing with BUM activity, have to be left in the dressing room this time around. We have to go on the attack, no more soaking up and rolling with the punches. Our people need to step it up a gear or two and start publicly exposing these frauds at every ring of the bell. We snooze we lose!

  75. call me dave says:

    FGS! Gordon Wilson has urged Scotland to fight to fight for it’s liberty ‘body and soul’ Now claims to be a YES.

    Story in Herald.

    PS:
    Just heard an MEP woman says Scotland welcome with open arms and on Auntie TV darn sarf!

    Presenter says much warmth in the EU parliament for us but then interviews a Spanish official who said ‘there is a procedure for Scotland to be in the EU’. errr yes! Balanced reporting 🙂

    Looking out for the usual suspects offering us unicorns before the day is oot!

  76. ronnie anderson says:

    @ GrahamB 12.49 BBC Bias Protest 26th March.

    After tonights meeting there will be more information on the F/B page tomorrow & I would ask all Wingers to share as widely as possible.

  77. schrodingers cat says:

    Margaritis Schinas said: “The Barroso doctrine, would that apply? Yes that would apply, obviously.”

    we will hear a lot about this in the next few months

  78. galamcennalath says:

    All this ‘will NATO accept Scotland?’ stuff being banded around … somehow I don’t think it’s uppermost in most folks reckoning!

  79. geeo says:

    Sorry if it upsets folk, but Tommy Shephard sat back and allowed Dugdale to spout shite.

    He bit a little at Tompkins, but not much, and allowed Coburn to just talk pish to him.

    @dugdale…”kezia, what on earth are you on about with a £15 billion deficit, when Deloitte SPECIFICALLY states that GERS is NO indicator of the future finances of an independent Scotland, you are talking presumptious nonsense”.

    @tompkins….”oh dear, of course there is a mandate for a referendum, and of course there is the appetite for one, the Scottish electorate indicated that by voting for the SNP manifesto by an utter landslide. On the other hand, who voted for Theresa May as PM exactly”?

    @Coburn….”listen Jo, if you are going to let every other guest talk rubbish unchallenged and uninterrupted yet butt in before i even begin to answer your questions, this interview is over and the viewers can decide if you and your programme has an inherent biase against Scotland and her representatives”.
    ………
    Fuckin easy.

  80. Big Jock says:

    The SNP have contingency plans for every eventuality. Sturgeon has out-maneuvered May. If May tries to dictate the timing of the referendum, the SNP will have a plan in place. If it does reach absolute stalemate, then Holyrood goes on strike and a new election will be called with boosted SNP support.

  81. galamcennalath says:

    A thought. Perhaps May et al are afraid of Brexit, ScotIndy, and united Ireland all happening at the same time and throwing England’s continuing state status into doubt.

    It would be a hard case to argue, that England and Wales are the successor state to the full UK.

    There is a queue of countries with a better claim to a permanent UK Security Council seat, for one thing.

  82. Robert Peffers says:

    @Robert says:14 March, 2017 at 11:29 am:

    “Maybe add that the “once in a generation” comment was a personal opinion of one person not a SNP promise.”

    Och! Robert, you must be the supreme optimist. I’m still attempting, with little success, to get certain yoons to accept that, “Alex Salmond never said he had EU legal advice when questioned by Andrew Neil because the question Neil asked was, “and have you sought legal advice from your own Scottish Government legal advisors”. I’m also still attempting to convince certain Yoons that Nick Robinson’s claim that Salmond never answered Robinson’s question is a downright, bare faced, lie.

    It is like the old saw, “Ye can tak a horse tae the watter but ye canna mak it drink”, when attempting to correct Yoon lies. Just like the nag micht say, “Neigh”, so do the yoons.

  83. Vestas says:

    All kicking off nicely now 🙂

    https://euobserver.com/tickers/137233 :

    “Following calls on Monday by Scotland’s leader for a new independence referendum, Northern Ireland’s largest Irish nationalist party, Sinn Fein, has announced the need for a referendum on splitting from the United Kingdom “as soon as possible”. “Brexit will be a disaster for the economy, and a disaster for the people of Ireland. A referendum on Irish unity has to happen as soon a possible,” party leader Michelle O’Neill said.”

  84. Nana says:

    O/T links

    Statement from Nicola

    http://news.gov.scot/news/referendum-must-be-made-in-scotland

    Alex Salmond: Theresa May has learned Nicola Sturgeon is “not a woman to be underestimated”

    watch here
    https://twitter.com/Brexit/status/841563938709942272

    https://www.commonspace.scot/articles/10535/labour-indy-doubles-membership-and-will-take-yes-case-every-branch-scotland

    Joanna, Polish in Scotland -“I feel like a patient on the operating table…and Scotland is holding my hand saying everything’s gonna be OK”

    watch here
    https://twitter.com/leomiklasz/status/841621272484302850

  85. David Crines says:

    Sturgeon retaliated first before May signed the article 50 letter. So every EU negotiator knows that there is now a genuine posssiblity that they can still have 28 constituent nations with Scotland either remaining or rejoining in short order.

    That fact significantly complicates the task for UK negotiators who now have to think of the troubles at home as they seek a deal with the EU. And it all results from the intransigence and arrogance of Theresa May. And to think that Rev Stu thought 2017 was going to be a quiet year. Well, he’s not often wrong.

  86. Camz says:

    To sum up, Scotland should get a referendum ahead of the Brexit event, or in effect, have an opt out.

    The problem will be that the UK MSM and establishment as a whole (politicians, civil service, corporations) will spend the interim SNP-badding and Brexit-gooding, that by the time indyref2 comes, half the population will be terrified.

    Unless of course the alternative media gets hold of some TV rights (STV anyone? CH4?). At least we won’t have the celebs in cringe-max as we did last time. Their efforts will seem like the whimpering of a spoilt child.

  87. schrodingers cat says:

    Day 2 since announcement of #ScotRef

    Oil bad
    15 billion deficit
    Russian threat
    uk single market bigger than eu
    Spanish Veto
    EU rejection of Scottish Membership
    NATO see above

  88. Swami Backverandah says:

    “The SNP’s Ian Blackford asks if May will comply with the Scottish parliament’s request for a second referendum.

    May says there was a referendum. At the time Alex Salmond said it was a once-in-a-lifetime vote.”

    Did he just?

    The FM is saying there’s a material change of circumstances to the circumstances at the time of the previous referendum. The SNP won Scottish Government on that manifesto. Therefore, to represent the mandate of the Scottish vote, the FM can’t not call a referendum.

    The only issue is timing.

  89. Nana says:

    @ronnie anderson

    I’m about to send out a search party Ronnie, he vanished earlier. He’ll no doubt appear again at dinner time, I’m just hoping he brings a takeaway home, lol

  90. Macart says:

    @galamcennalath

    Oh, the old NATO trope is it?

    Independent Scotland doesn’t become a NATO member (shrugs). Don’t think they’ve thought that one through myself, but good oh. We join PFP, work our own relationship with NATO and we enjoy the protection without the exorbitant contributions.

    Not truly bothered either way, but you can see the route of travel.

    YOU WALK AWAY AND NO ONE WILL HAVE YOU! ONLY WE REALLY LOVE YOU! (Might slap you about a bit), BUT THAT’S ALSO BECAUSE WE LOOOOOVE YOU! (sigh)

  91. Brian Powell says:

    Nana

    Who can Labour for Indy vote for, I wonder?

  92. Mike says:

    Stoker

    I don’t disagree but there’s no point telling me you need to get that message across to the SNP. I am also sick and tired of the way they sit back and allow some of the worst claims and bullshit to go by unchallenged.
    This 15 billion deficit should have been destroyed years ago.
    The point that there is no UK without Scotland should have been brought up everytime seceding is mentioned. The SNP need to keep pointing out that the UK cant exist without the Parliamentary union with Scotland.
    The referendum is about ending the Act of Union and the very existence of the UK itself its not about seceding from a UK Nation state that doesn’t exist.
    They cant argue about EU membership or the currency from that perspective. It leave them with nothing.

    SNP better up their game this time around or I’m going to start voting Green or RISE.

  93. Dan Huil says:

    What we’ve seen and heard over the last 24 hours is yet more fear and negativity from britnats. Surely, even if they were taken surprise by Nicola Sturgeon’s classy pronoucement, yesterday should have seen britnats bringing out new arguments to defend their so-called united kingdom. There was nothing new from britnats. Fear and negativity is all they have.

  94. Vestas says:

    Guys, NATO is fucked. Erdogan and Trump will see to that – Erdogan already has, can’t see anyone Europe dealing with a dictator like him now. He’s Muslim & doesn’t have significant oil so to Trump he’s disposable.

    Its a non-argument as NATO benefits Scotland in no way whatsoever now. In fact we’d have a fuck of a lot less DU on our seabeds if we weren’t in NATO, never mind the old nukes/subs/whatever the hell is at the bottom of Holy Loch now.

    Fuck NATO. Its of no practical use whatsoever and is decades past the point it last was of use. The French worked that out, the Germans are getting there….

  95. ben madigan says:

    in reply to Scotsbob who asked at 11:53 am:
    “Why do people think that visiting a polling station more than once every couple of years is too much too manage?”

    Referendum/Voting Fatigue is the latest fashionable illness or rather a dissuasion technique that is being promoted by the people who count/powers that be/ etc.
    Convince people that the are suffering from this terrible illness and they will never again darken the doorstep of a Polling Station.
    Smaller turnout = fewer voters to convince and election/referendum winning made easy

    https://eurofree3.wordpress.com/2017/03/02/referendumvoting-fatigue/

  96. Bob Mack says:

    Scotland believe it or not could manage very well. There are some irrefutable facts you should know

    We have an annual GDP,in the region of £154 billion.
    Our economy is the 12th largest out of the current 28 EU members.
    We only include a share of oil and gas revenues in those figures.not the full revenues
    We do not have powers to fully grow our economy as yet.
    We produce the largest GDP per capita among EU nations.
    Logically if we are in a mess then every country below our output should be bankrupt as well. Are they? No I thought not.

  97. Jack Murphy says:

    EXACTLY. Fact 4 from Main Article above,I completely agree.
    Must be repeated often and widely.
    Let the people speak.

    “…….This, however, is like allowing a condemned man an appeal against his sentence, on the condition that it was only held after he had been executed.
    Scotland being forced out of the EU against its will is the entire justification for a second referendum. The sole purpose of the referendum is to give the Scottish people the chance to escape that fate. A delayed referendum obviously fails in that purpose, and is therefore not fit for that purpose.
    It is a non-credible option……”

  98. sensibledave says:

    The Rev’s Article

    Fact 4 …. he wrote “Scotland being forced out of the EU against its will is the entire justification for a second referendum. The sole purpose of the referendum is to give the Scottish people the chance to escape that fate. A delayed referendum obviously fails in that purpose, and is therefore not fit for that purpose. It is a non-credible option.”

    Genuine question. Given the Ms Sturgeon’s suggested timescales on indyref2, how does Scotland remain in the EU – if only a few months later there is a Brexit? Is it suggested that Brexit would be delayed until Scotland sorted themselves out – or that Scotland would agree a deal to become an independent member of the EU between indyref2 and Brexit?

  99. Robert Peffers says:

    @Luigi says: 14 March, 2017 at 11:53 am:

    “I don’t think that May will point blank re
    fuse a section 30 order. However, she will definitely try to stall a Scottish referendum until after BREXIT.”

    I may well be wrong but I believe Nicola has had the intention to hold a referendum with or without anyone’s permission and her statement that she will seek Westminster’s Section 30 whatsit is nothing more than a bait for Theresa May to take.

    If May attempts, or refuses, Westminster’s blessing then I’m sure it will add quite a few percentage points to the YES vote. This could lead to May attempting to delay matters until after the EU decision of the UK exit from the EU but that too is a trap for any Westminster Tory to fall into and Nicola is more than smart enough to bait such traps.

    to paraphrase Kipling : –

    “And She knows, because She warns him her, and Her instincts never fail,
    That the Female of Her Species is more deadly than the Male.”

  100. Arbroath1320 says:

    Sorry for going O/T … sort of.

    I think we may have a “secret agent” in the opposition’s camp already folks. 😉

    https://twitter.com/BBCAndrewBlack/status/841634004092801024

  101. Dan Huil says:

    The so-called united kingdom continues to disintegrate.

  102. jfngw says:

    The unionists now claim the SNP did not win the 2016 election. I’m quite happy to let the Greens abstain and let the vote be between the SNP & the combined unionist opposition. So even without the Greens they still win the vote, bring it on.

  103. David Wardrope says:

    Excellent piece, link sent to many and article printed off for casual leaving on tables.

  104. Dr Jim says:

    Do you think the SNP will be allowed to continue:

    Economist on SKY saying Scotland is 150 bllion pound economy and the extra money claimed by the UK that Scotland gets per head is purely assigned accounting and meaningless, what’s more important is Theresa May can’t afford to lose Scotland and especially not at a time when Norn Ireland has just declared they want to leave too

    If the dim and uninformed folk of Scotland don’t wake up and get this stuff into their thick nappers they’ll consign us to total oblivion post Brexit and these moaning pensioners (which I’m one but I don’t moan) will find themselves forming lines outside the very few hospitals and health centres we’ll have left once Trump gets his Insurance companies imbedded and the youngsters will be having to pay health insurance to see doctors at exorbitant rates

    Forget about free prescriptions, forget about free personel care for the elderly, forget about nursery care, in fact just forget because if Theresa May gets her way the SNP wont be able to protect Scotland from what’s coming and you can say hello to the Ruth Davidson Sectarian unionist party who’ll scrap the lot and don’t look to Labour for help they’ll abstain and likely only be part time anyway while making up their wages at an Aldi checkout near you

    The Scottish parliament will end up like Downing street surrounded by bars and guards

    So do your children a favour old lazy uninformed pensioners and do the right thing instead of the selfish thing
    And for younger No voters well you’re just bringing it on yourselves there’s no excuse for you except if you’re a sectarian bigot of course then you’re doomed anyway while you shout No surrender at the moon

  105. Robert Graham says:

    Immediate Media training for all MPs & Msps .
    While Tommy did ok , I could have floored Kezia & Tomkins ,
    Kezia by pointing out her various alternative facts and her very own y/tube clip of her being caught mis truthing .
    Tomkins , you say Mr Tomkins the first minister has no Mandate ,to call a referendum i put it to you not only is that a total lie but you Mr Tomkins have no mandate or right to sit in our parliament having reached the dizzying heights of fifth place in the last election yes that was fifth place , you shouldn’t be there .
    Stop being so bloody agreeable , dont sit silent when the pish starts , Interrupt the buggers rehearsed flow of rubbish .
    Just my humble opinion .

  106. Arbroath1320 says:

    Now I think this is definitely O/T but I think peeps will enjoy it all the same.

    Remember this is what Mayhem actually “thinks.” 😀

    Oh and for good measure Angus Robertson played a “slam dunk” on her today apparently as well. 😀

    https://twitter.com/_WeAreScotland_/status/841635157174059008

  107. Arbroath1320 says:

    Damn it might have helped if I had put the first link into my previous tweet … DUH! 😀

    https://twitter.com/faisalislam/status/841650338016964608

  108. Iain More says:

    I am still cleaning the shoes and clothes. I think there has been even more head spinning and projectile vomiting in the last 24 hours from the Yoons than Indy Ref 1.

    Meanwhile the Brit Peso is looking even more like the Peso.

    I am enjoying the vomiting of Brit bile but the cleaning up isn’t much fun.

  109. Robert J. Sutherland says:

    Vestas,

    I think we can safely put the NATO thing to bed now. Basically it needs us more than we need them, but it’s no big deal. Nobody’s that bothered either way.

    Let’s avoid distractions, please. The Unionists will try to conjure up as many as they can, and we don’t need to help them by making more.

    As Macart says, go on the offensive, not tamely follow the opposition agenda.

  110. Robert Peffers says:

    @sensibledave says: 14 March, 2017 at 2:13 pm:

    “Genuine question. Given the Ms Sturgeon’s suggested timescales on indyref2, how does Scotland remain in the EU – if only a few months later there is a Brexit? Is it suggested that Brexit would be delayed until Scotland sorted themselves out – or that Scotland would agree a deal to become an independent member of the EU between indyref2 and Brexit?”

    Laughable, sensibledave.

    Scotland, as either a country or a partner kingdom in the EU, has been a founder member country/kingdom of the EU. We have been full members since day one, sensibledave.

    Why then would Scotland need to, “Sort herself out”?

    The negotiations would go something like this :-

    EC(the EU Civil Service):-“Hello Scottish Government”, – we are calling you to find out if you wish to retain the former UK’s seat in the EU.

    We realise that you know you will need to renegotiate certain matters but we understand, after 40 years or so, that you already comply with all the rules. Can you confirm you wish to remain?”

    SG: “Yes we do wish to remain and will have our senior MEP start negotiations on our behalf.”

    EC: ” Thank you Scotland. I won’t welcome you back because you never left, How’s the weather in Edinburgh today? London tells me it is rather, how do you say it in Scotland? Ah! I remember, Muckle Dreich”.

  111. jfngw says:

    It’s difficult to work out which of the Tory, Labour or LibDems leaders think Scotland is the most useless country in the world. I never realised we were so useless till these people point it out on a daily basis.

    According to them I’m some sort of Fagan character, just wanting to pick the pockets of our neighbours. Thankfully I have a higher opinion of the people living here.

  112. orri says:

    I’m waiting for someone to put the question directly to Mundell as to whether in his role as Scottish Secretary he will instruct Lord Andrew Dunlop, the Under – Secretary, to reject the Section 30 request for the power to hold a constitutionally altering independence referendum. If so will he do so on his own behalf or on instruction from his PM?

  113. Capella says:

    The NewRef fund raiser is now at £218,000 – not bad for one day.
    99 days left.
    https://www.ref.scot/donate

  114. JDMAN says:

    GEEO
    “Al Jazeera have a very good article by an Alistair Sloan…”

    AYE
    BUT HE STILL MANAGED TO GET IT WRONG WHEN HE SAID SCOTLANDS CASE FOR INDY WAS DAMAGED WHEN THE OIL PRICE FELL!

  115. sensibledave says:

    Robert Peffers 2:37 pm

    You wrote “Laughable, sensibledave.

    Robert, The United Kingdom is a member of the EU – not England or Scotland. The Uk’s arrangements with the EU cover many aspects, just one of which is the size of a member’s contribution to the EU coffers. Other issues that would need to be sorted is the border arrangements, the customs union, currency, avoidance of England having indirect access to single market, etc.

    I am not suggesting that these things can’t be overcome – I am very dubious though that it could be achieved in a couple of months.- bearing in mind that in those timescales Scotland would still be part of the UK even if an Independence referendum had been had – and won? Scotland wouldn’t be an Independent country by the time the UK Brexit – unless Brexit is delayed?

    Maybe I am just over-complicating things and asking silly questions. You seem pretty sure that you have all the answers – but then you always do and you are inevitably proved wrong.

  116. Arbroath1320 says:

    Comedy classic from R.T. peeps.

    David Coburn (boy I’m gonna miss him after independence 😀 ) arguing against Scottish independence.

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sDgePjn0EPM

  117. Proud Cybernat says:

    Blind Brexit…

    http://imgur.com/a/29OCz

  118. Now that we can all rest easy in our beds in the safe knowledge that the wealthy and Big Business are being given £73 billion in tax breaks by the Tory Government and that the ‘savings’ by scrapping Widows Benefits, Employment Support Allowances to disabled Jobseekers, and removing Housing Benefit to 11,00 18-21 year olds, rendering them homeless at the stroke of Ruth Davidson’s pen,are to be used to build the Queen and her Royal Hangers On a new luxury yacht, is there any truth that this floating obscenity will be named ‘Betty McBettface?
    The Red Blue and Yellow Tories has lost any vestige of morality, fairness and a social conscience now.
    Last night they voted to introduce a virtual concentration camp for 3 million EU citizens working here in our Health Service, Tourism, agriculture, education, and many more areas of vital importance to the health, wealth, and social cohesion of the UK.
    They have quite literally lost the plot.
    Yet Professor WATP Adam Tomkins is given Leave of Absence from his day job at Glasgow Uni to tour the broadcast outlets lying his head off.
    I have a personal stake in this. We roundly rejected this freeloader in our constituency, yet he has the attention of the whole MSM, everywhere, all the time.
    I pity his poor students at Uni.
    What a fecking sinecure this man is on!
    We shall be free of him and the LisTory Boys soon now.

  119. Nana says:

    Posting this again for anyone who missed it first time

    Jim Rogers on Brexit: If Scotland takes its oil with it…

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dNMUPIsQjf4&sns=tw

  120. Robert J. Sutherland says:

    sensibledave @ 15:07:

    … Scotland would still be part of the UK even if an Independence referendum had been had – and won?

    Now you are just taking the contrarian piss, insensible. As soon as an indy referendum is won, Scotland is no longer part of the UK. By definition. Duh.

    Negotiation of the terms of separation would if course begin, as indeed would up-front (rather than backroom) negotiations about Scotland’s relationship with the EU, but from that point on we would not be beholden to the rUK over anything whatsoever. And would be backed up by the UN accordingly, if necessary.

    As soon as a winning indy vote is declared, the UK-as-was becomes past tense. Done. Over. Period.

  121. Chris Baxter says:

    Is there a breakdown available of EU citizens and how they voted in the last Referendum?

    How many thousands voted? And I would expect that the majority of them voted No because they thought it was likelier remaining in the EU as was. Now that must be completely reversed.

  122. Robert Peffers says:

    @Dr Jim says: 14 March, 2017 at 2:26 pm:

    “The Scottish parliament will end up like Downing street surrounded by bars and guards.”

    Not very different from today then Dr Jim, surrounded by pubs and knocking shops.

  123. W Habib Steele says:

    Let’s PEACE for independence, not fight for it. Calmly present the facts of the case for independence and the case against the Westminster Government and the Unionist campaign. Yes, stir the emotions, but not by attacking persons, nor calling names, nor any kind of put-downs. Get to the bottom of the GERS figures by a detailed analysis and presentation of our financial and fiscal situation. Let Scottish Sovereigntists who appear on talk shows etc, make clear that the show is biased against them because the programme has only one to present the case for our sovereignty and 4 or more against our Sovereignty.

  124. scotsbob says:

    This is just getting ridiculous now.

    Person on a phone in just said calling a referendum in 2018 is too soon because it doesn’t give people enough time to make a decision!

    I decided in 1964 that I wanted my country to be self governing, I don’t need more time to think about it.

  125. Mike says:

    @Sensibledave

    Every argument from pro Yoonia is founded on the premise that the UK is a country a Nation State when it clearly isn’t.
    The UK is NOTHING BUT a Parliamentary union between country Nation States. So the ACTUAL COUNRY NATION STATE members within the EU are Scotland England and Wales. NI has a separate treaty of Union with the entire UK Parliament.
    Which actually means that when Scotland ends that Parliamentary Union NI automatically becomes Independent too because they will no longer be in a Treaty of Union with a Parliament that no longer exists.
    But as far as the EU is concerned as long as Scotland takes its Independence while still within the EU it will remain in the EU because there is no structure within EU legislation to remove an existing member. Existing members have to leave of their own violation.

    The entire pro Union non case relies on the lie that the UK is a Nation State. Everything they claim is based on that Lie and non existing foundation.

    The currency NATO the EU all dependent on an Indy Scotland “AGREEING” to allow the “R” UK to continue to exist as the existing UK.
    If the “R” UK doesn’t get that agreement it cant continue to claim its the UK.

  126. ronnie anderson says:

    @ Stu why would you have bricks in your living room, i,ve heard of people throwing slippers ect at the TV ( Irene King for one ) but no bricks, each to they’re own I suppose & where’s the Hammers btw. lol

  127. Chris Baxter says:

    “The United Kingdom is a member of the EU – not England or Scotland.”

    Scotland does however have to comply with all EU regulations by virtue of that.

    Entry into the EU is based on a set of requirements. If a country meets those requirements then it is admitted after the EU members vote to admit.

    All of the other issues you raised have already been encountered by joining states, none of which were already compliant.

    It has already been mooted by Jacqueline Manor that Scotland would have to apply, and would be fast-tracked due to its unique status (of having already been compliant in terms of EU regulations).

    It took less than a year for Croatia, a country far from being fast-tracked, to be admitted to the EU.

    http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-23118035

    From 1 July 2013, upon Croatian accession to the EU:

    Concerns about Croatian corruption and organised crime remain among some EU leaders, and Croatia will not yet join the single currency or the free-movement Schengen zone, where most EU citizens are not subject to passport checks.

    But advocates of EU membership say despite this, their case remains a persuasive one.

    Two-thirds of Croatians voted in favour of accession last year.
    “It’s important for us primarily for the long term guarantees of political stability and then everything else – the single market too,” Croatia’s First Deputy Prime Minister, Vesna Pusic, told the BBC.

    The EU itself has given Croatia a clean bill of health – and praised reforms which improve the rule of law and tackle corruption.

    It hopes the other countries of the former Yugoslavia will be encouraged to join – and secure long-term peace for an historically turbulent region.

  128. Chick McGregor says:

    Not a lot of time at the moment but picking up on random points.

    1 Any proxy-referendum forced by Westminster refusal and SC declaration of illegality, would have to be by mass resignation of Westminster pro indy MPs.

    That is simply because it is only there where nearly all of the Scottish electorate can be tested with 56 out of 59 MPs.

    50%+ of that turnout would be enough to make a request for negotiations on independence with Westminster, or if the still refuse to acknowledge….

    A similar action in Holyrood could not do this, as an election due to mass resignation of pro indy MSPs would only test half the electorate therefore no possibility of getting 50% of the electorate.

    2 Similarly, any strike action at Holyrood would give them the perfect excuse resume direct rule.

    3 OK, not the envisaged super grid, but a connection to Norway already would effect a connection to elsewhere in Europe since there are already sub sea cables from there to The Netherlands, Denmark and Germany built or under way.

    4 About a third of tidal energy is generated by the Sun.

  129. Robert J. Sutherland says:

    W Habib Steele @ 15:21:

    Get to the bottom of the GERS figures by a detailed analysis and presentation of our financial and fiscal situation.

    While I appreciate your general sentiment, WHS, I cannot agree about this particular point. Nit-picking over unionist-sourced financial white noise is exactly what our opponents would like us to do. Get lost in irrelevant fine detail and lose sight of the big picture: GERS figures, whatever they are, represent nothing more than serial Union mismanagement; debt incurred by others yet charged to our account. Everything changes under our own management. Not a panacea, true, but a whole different ball game nevertheless.

    Preferably starting debt-free.

  130. Socrates MacSporran says:

    Just watched that RT exchange between David Jamieson and David Coburn – I think the Indyref2 No campaign has just found its leader.

    I have never heard any Tory or Labour politician mount as trenchant a defence of UKOK as the bold DC did. It was magnificent – mind you, it was also a load of lying misinformation and bull excrement.

    Please, can we all boost DC to the extent he is given a leading role in the No campaign – then we Ayes are home and hosed.

    He is so loony, he makes Tomkins, Fraser, Ruthie, Kezia, Kelly and Co seem lucid and intelligent.

  131. Almannysbunnet says:

    I’ve just been TOLD by an “award winning investigative journalist” on twitter that “Scotland doesn’t want independence it just wants to do what it wants and have Westminster pay for it” oh and “anyone with an IQ above 60 can see that”. Sometimes you realize life is too short and you just have to walk away from a fruitless argument

  132. Albaman says:

    Rev.
    Looking, and listening to A. Tomkins, Ruth Davidson, and a few others, I cannot help but think I am watching the Scottish U.K.I.P. party.
    The hatred of the S.N.P. with it’s success in Scotland, has made the “Con/U.K.I.P.”nothing more than a far right wing party which has fallen over the edge of insanity.

  133. sensibledave says:

    Robert J. Sutherland 15:07:

    You wrote “As soon as a winning indy vote is declared, the UK-as-was becomes past tense. Done. Over. Period.”

    I have no axe to grind here – other than “correctness”. The result of the referendum determines the future direction, it absolutely does not mean that Scotland is suddenly, overnight, an Independent country in actuality. In other threads, it has been argued how long it takes to extricate oneself from these long term relationships and agreements and now you seem to be arguing, together with Robert Peffers, that the EU will be jumping up and down to make Scotland a member overnight with a rubber stamp.

    Clearly, again, I cannot profess to know – but it doesn’t sound likely to me.

    Worryingly though if yours is an example of the degree of brain power that is being brought to bear here, then there may be problems ahead.

  134. James Barr Gardner says:

    Just waiting for yoon whitaboutery you can’t get your pension in an Independent Scotland, aye that’ll go down well with all the expats in Spain and elsewhere in the EU. All thanks to tory/Ukip not forgetting the BBC and bum newspapers in this evil connivance to keep the city of london clique rolling in cash,oil,power,ego and greed.

    Brexit the road to hell, no mistake, still what little england wants, little england gets, to hell with anyone else.

    Scotland is ready for Independence, it’s our children/grandchildren’s birthright, it’s their futures that’s in our hands.

  135. jdman says:

    Ronnie @ 3.34
    Its no the TV she throws baffies at Ronnie 🙁

  136. Cymru Rydd says:

    I thought Nichola Sturgeon’s announcement yesterday was positively magisterial. The British establishment obviously half expected such an announcement, but such is their complete ignorance about Scotland, they expected it to happen at the SNP conference. The fact that is was made in such a stately and dignified way at Bute House- emphasizing the fact that she was speaking for the whole of Scotland, not just the SNP- was little short of inspirational.If only we had a Nichola has always been a common refrain among Welsh nationalists. Well her stock kas risen that much higher in our midst after yesterday.

    I personally feel that Theresa May has been mortally wounded after underestimating Sturgeon and the threat of Indy Ref 2 to such an extent. I have never rated her. Her performances at PM’s Question Times are both wooden and completely devoid of content. I think she is completely out of her depth. Now she has to front up to the most canny political operator in the British Isles- I just can’t see her lasting the distance. The Tories are the most ruthless political party in Europe, and there are already murmurings that a successor to May is now being sought.Is it any wonder that Boris Johnson and Michael Gove have raised their profiles over the past few weeks? Indeed Gove described May as a “Catholic” in a newspaper article over the weekend, when what Britain needed was a full throttled new Protestant Reformation to “remake the country”

    My own view is that the usual British arrogance will come into play again,whoever takes the Tory reins, i.e that they will refuse Scotland the right to call a new referendum or delay it until after Brexit. I also suspect that they will crash out of the EU without a deal much sooner than anybody expects, especially now that they have this Scottish threat to counter. I trust that Nichola Sturgeon has anticipated this eventuality, and is ready to call a snap Scottish election in response, with the SNP standing on an Independence ticket. After all, if you look back at the history of independence gaining countries overs the past 100 years, only a handful have done so through a referendum.

    Looking at the situation from here in Wales, I would much prefer Scotland to gain its freedom by means of an election, rather than undergo the lottery of another referendum, which can be so uncertain and divisive.

  137. Robert J. Sutherland says:

    sensibledave @ 15:54:

    you seem to be arguing … that the EU will be jumping up and down to make Scotland a member overnight with a rubber stamp.

    Oh dear, you obviously didn’t read very carefully what I wrote, then. (Your problem, not mine.)

    Then you reduce yourself to cheap ad hominem insults. Poor you. You’re losing it, dear chap, and it’s showing.

    As to the subject of correctness, a winning independence result immediately removes Scotland from UK control. London loses all its heretofore presumed writ over the land from that very microsecond. The (not inconsiderable) remainder is mere incidental mutual tidying-up.

  138. ALANM says:

    If London blocks an early referendum then the 2020 general election should be designated the independence election. If the SNP win more than 50% of the Scottish seats at Westminster that’s all the mandate you need to declare independence.

  139. heedtracker says:

    Its wildly mad out there today and now,

    Graun says,

    UK Independence party (Ukip)
    Ukip donor Arron Banks says he has quit party to set up ‘Ukip 2.0’
    Man who bankrolled Leave.EU campaign claims his membership was suspended after his outspoken attacks on party

    Quit or booted out, by Dr Nuttall? Scottish UKIPer loony Coburn’s high comedy today too. Bit ungrateful though, as Aaron’s splurged even more dosh om UKIP than JK Rowling did against Scotland running Scotland, 2014.

    Cant wait to see how much Rowling blows this time. Where will it all end.

  140. sensibledave says:

    Robert J. Sutherland 10.

    You wrote “As to the subject of correctness, a winning independence result immediately removes Scotland from UK control. London loses all its heretofore presumed writ over the land from that very microsecond. The (not inconsiderable) remainder is mere incidental mutual tidying-up.

    I agree in terms of the sense and feeling of Independence would be “coming” Robert – but not the actuality in practical terms. But hey, you have got everything covered it seems.

    Maybe other contributors might like to express a view?

  141. Dr Jim says:

    I’d like the people who voted for David Coburn to identify themselves and tell us how proud they are of him and do they still find him to be representative of their “views”

    It’s oh so quiet, it’s oh so still

  142. Socrates MacSporran says:

    Robert J Sutherland

    For once, sensibledave is correct. Scotland will not become independent the moment we win an independence referendum. That victory will signal the parting of the ways, the terms will still have to be negotiated, this will take time and you can guarantee, since we are so-crucial to the well-being of the UK state, England will do their demndest to string-out the negotiations, milk us for as much as they can and in all probability do what they can to lay waste to Scotland before we go.

    I always felt Alex Salmond’s 18-month timeline back in 2014 was a bit optimistic. Aye, it might work with good will on both sides, but, good will to Scotland from Westminster – that would be a first.

    I fear, even if the timescale was favourable, we would not become the successor state within the EU to the UK. Given the negotiations which will be required to separate us from England (and Wales and maybe Northern Ireland) – “Scotland free by 23” is a more-likely scenario – it could take that long.

    However, we will still be a sought-after addition to the EU family, with all the natural resources we have. I have no illusions, the early days of an independent Scotland will be tough, but, we will survive and prosper.

  143. manandboy says:

    Clear, factual, indisputable, unemotional.

    Rev Stuart Campbell. Indispensable, irrepressible, irreplaceable.

  144. Tinto Chiel says:

    Cymru Rydd: some excellent points. May may cut and run in a flounce at an early stage of Brexit negotiations and try to drag us out with her but I am sure the FM will have a plan for that eventuality.

    You may find this interesting:

    https://weegingerdug.wordpress.com/

  145. I have tried to get on lbc all day I get through but they never allow me on air I said to all your people who are phoning in saying that Scotland is to poor to survive and that England subsidies Scotland read the Macrone report yes the one they kept hidden for 30 years so they knew it was true but they did not want you or us to know it only after a freedom of information request was it revealed please realize that they are lying to you as well as us

  146. Dan Huil says:

    One minute britnats say Scotland won’t be allowed in the EU, then in the next minute they say Scotland will be ruled by Brussels. Britnats are full of BS.

  147. Bob Mack says:

    @Socrates McSporran,

    If you are correct then we would still be sitting in Westminster and voting on legislation even after indy has been declared. What happens if they want to pass legislation affecting the whole UK ?

    I think the point is that effectively we would no longer be able or indeed eligible to form new legislation in Westminster, especially relating to Scotland, but would be active probably through the Civil Service in sorting out the detail and minutiae of separation.

  148. Dr Jim says:

    Jocks, frogs, gerrys, greasy belgians, wops, wogs, fuzzy wuzzys, rag heads, turkeys, spics

    All nasty names for people from other countries not invented by themselves
    but derogatory terms to demean other nations

    Who does that???

    I so want to be associated with those people…Not

  149. orri says:

    Never thought I’d be the one to say this but a mass resignation of every SNP MP with, hopefully, those not presently part of the party but elected on that ticket would force new elections at which point the SNP could stand on a manifesto pledge of declaring independence. They got nearly 50% last time. Not impossible this time. Unfortunately postal voting won’t be under our control.

    The first step would be recall all MPs for a public council of war.

  150. manandboy says:

    In the past it has always been Scotland v England, even more so since 2012 and the start of IndyRef14, when the EU was with Westminster. But with the EU referendum in June 2016, the EU is now on our side. We are no longer ‘alone’ in our difficulties with Westminster.

    It is surely time for the Yes campaign to fully acknowledge and act in partnership with our many European friends, as indeed Nicola and the SG are already doing.

    Why look to England and the Unionists, from whence comes mostly hostility and bile.

    Instead, let us look up and beyond England to where we have many friends. Try out the European newspapers and continental TV. We are not alone. Let’s act like it throughout ScotRef.

  151. yesindyref2 says:

    Yeah, that’s it in a nutshell.

  152. manandboy says:

    A reminder:

    Brussels control in Scotland is 7%.

    Westminster control in Scotland is 93%.

    After Independence,

    Brussels control 7% (Scotland friendly)

    Scotland’s control 93%

  153. jfngw says:

    @Socrates MacSporran

    I can’t see how this would work, there would be an outcry immediately in Eng & Wales if there was still Scottish MP’s at Westminster voting on legislation that would, in the longer term, not be implemented in Scotland.

    I would expect all MP’s to withdraw from Westminster the day after the vote and the power transferred to Holyrood. Any legislation that requires UK wide agreements would require negotiations between WM & HR. The full separation can then progress in parallel, if we require WM initiative we may still be in the union in 50 years.

    This transition is a dangerous period as there will still be those trying to reverse the result, the union split must be done prior to any elections in Scotland, before May 2021.

  154. Robert J. Sutherland says:

    Bob Mack @ 16:31,

    Thank you, Bob, you made essentially the reply that I would have made.

    No-one disputes that there would be a great deal of sorting out to be done thereafter, but that’s entirely incidental.

    From the point of declaration on, London could not negotiate anything internationally on our behalf, nor impose any further law over us. All our elected representatives in the HoC, including poor old Fluffy, Liar Carmichael and Red Tory Ian, would be obliged to take their leave directly.

    Scotland’s sovereignity would indisputably lie within its own borders from that moment on.

  155. Bill McLean says:

    Sensible Dave – Re your insulting comments about Robert Peffers and Robert J Sutherland, could you employ some of your massive brain power, or is it ego, to learn some manners. We don’t all agree with each other on here but we mostly remain civil. If I was a guest in your house I would remember my manners – but then i’m just a lesser human being as a Scot!

  156. Craig P says:

    I wonder who the last Scottish member of the house of Lords will be? A 90-year old Lady Mone perhaps.

  157. Socrates MacSporran says:

    BobMack

    As my sainted Mother was always saying: “Ye never let go wi’ yae haun, tae ye hae a better grip wi’ the ither”.

    Of course we should, after winning Indyref2, remain at Westminster and playing our full part. After all, since the Tories ignore everything the SNP members suggest now, they have nothing to lose by staying, but, they HAVE to remain there to keep a watching brief.

    There will need to be co-operation between the two Parliaments, the status of the Scottish civil servants, for instance will need to be sorted-out, also, the exact time table for the separation and the due date of Independence Day.

  158. Marie Clark says:

    Been away and still trying to catch up as there is such a lot of keech fleein aboot. Can I just add my tuppenceworth?

    This time around the argument is different. Don’t let the yoons drown us out with all the crap about too wee, too poor, the EU don’t want us. The £15 million debt etc. Why let them away with this crap. Get in aboot them, big time. It’s no up tae them whit will happen in an indy Scotland, that’s oor decision, no their’s.For me, it boils down to Scotland versus The Tories. Get stuck in aboot Brexit and dinnae let them dictate to us, and try and put us on the back foot. On yer feet, and up aff yer knees.

    Dae ye want tae be dragged oot o’ the EU kickin an screaming, by a bunch o’ the most racist uncaring government at Westminster?I don’t, and I’m gonnae fight wi’ a’ that I can tae give Scotland a chance o’ a better life. I hae a son, daughter and three teenage granweans and we need tae win this fur the sake o’ a’ the young yins.

    So, keep the heid, don’t let the yoon crap get tae ye. Onwards and upwards boys. This is literally a fight to the death this time, cause should we lose, god help us all.Tory Westminster Government till at least 2030. No thank you very much.

    Rant over.

  159. Arbroath1320 says:

    Just for you Dr. Jim 😀

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=htobTBlCvUU

  160. geeo says:

    On the subject of post yes negotiations…

    We in Scotland fully accepy your previous stance of No Currency Union due to the sinking pound, so, no debt interest share will be taken.

    There’s 6 months of pish saved right there.

  161. yesindyref2 says:

    Keeping it simple is good. If anyone says Spain or Alfonso Dastis is saying Scotland would go to the back of the queue, here’s a simple answer:

    “That’s Alfonso Dastis, Spain’s Foreign Secretary, he is Spain’s equivalent of Boris Johnson.”

    and leave it at that!

  162. jfngw says:

    Prof Tomkins logic.

    37% of electorate gives you mandate for a referendum.
    47% of electorate does not give you mandate for a referendum.
    Glad he wasn’t marking any exams I took.

    Never seen such nonsense since 2014 when the abeisalba poster in the Guardian used to bomb it with streams of cut & paste.

  163. Clootie says:

    Orri

    …you don’t win by surrendering your political authority. Getting 56 out of 59 was an amazing feat if you come just ONE short of that target can you imagine the headlines.

  164. Robert Peffers says:

    @sensibledave says: 14 March, 2017 at 3:07 pm:

    “Robert, The United Kingdom is a member of the EU – not England or Scotland.”

    Indeed that is correct with the proviso that the title of it correctly describes exactly what that, “United Kingdom of Great Britain & Northern Ireland”, actually is. The letters K-i-n-g-d-o-m spell the word, “Kingdom”, they do not spell out the word, “C-o-u-n-t-r-y”. The United Kingdom is a union of only the two kingdoms extant in the British archipelago in the years before 1706/7.

    There have been no other kingdoms created in the British Isles since those two, equally sovereign, kingdoms united in 1707. It is of no consequence that the Kingdom of England was/is comprised of three countries and Scotland was/is a single country as it was two kingdoms and not four countries that signed the Treaty of Union.

    (As a matter of strict fact the pre-amble to the Treaty of Union refers to, “English dominions”. Pre-1706/7 those dominions referred to in the treaty are Wales and Ireland).

    There is not a single mention of country or countries in the Treaty. It is without doubt legally a bipartite union of two equally sovereign kingdoms.

    Thus the legal member state of the EU is a bipartite unit of two equally sovereign kingdoms. Much like a married couple are a legally bipartite couple and as such they have equal legal rights.

    Unless, of course, you can provide proof otherwise. Westminster has assumed, without legal right, sovereignty over Scotland that Westminster does not legally have. There is no legal proof of the Westminster claims that the Treaty of Union, “Extinguished the Kingdom of Scotland and renamed the Kingdom of England as the United Kingdom.

    Furthermore, there is no legal basis, other than, “Because we say so”, for Westminster to change what is certainly a legal treaty between bipartite equally sovereign kingdoms into a quadratic arrangement that makes Westminster the de facto parliament of the country of England, relegates the kingdom of Scotland as a dominion of England and treats Scotland, N. Ireland and Wales as subservient English dominions that Westminster devolves English powers to but claims it retains overall sovereignty over and can recall powers it granted.

    What is more Westminster knows this, many Scots know this and the EU knows this. If Ms May fancies her chances of disputing all that in the European Court of Human Rights I’m sure the legally qualified lawyer that is the present First Minister of Scotland knows far more than I do of the legal implications.

    Strangely, Sensibledave, to date not a single, “expert”, has brought forward any proofs in dispute with my claims and few qualified persons have done more than claim, without proofs. that I am wrong.

    Can you offer proof that Westminster actually has sovereignty over the legally sovereign people of Scotland?

    “The Uk’s arrangements with the EU cover many aspects, just one of which is the size of a member’s contribution to the EU coffers.”

    Exactly so, but the UK is legally a bipartite union of equally sovereign kingdoms and thus the UK Government equally represents both parties in the United Kingdom. It does not just represent the Kingdom of England. That, though is the illegal position that Westminster has adopted. Everything points to that conclusion.

    Westminster claimed, throughout the entire Indyref campaign, that if Scotland became independent that Westminster would remain as the rUnited Kingdom. The fact is in a bipartite kingdom if Scotland left what remains, (the, “r”, in rUK), could only be the Kingdom of England as no other British kingdoms have ever existed since 1706/7.

    Not to mention the Westminster commissioned paper that made the claim the Treaty, “Extinguished”, the Kingdom of Scotland and the public claim made on national TV by the Scottish Secretary. Factually if the two kingdoms split up the United Kingdom is ended and Westminster is NOT the legally elected Kingdom of England Parliament nor the country of England parliament. There is not a single person elected as a member of the parliament of England not the parliament of the Kingdom of England. Neither parliament exists.

    Westminster simply cannot assume to speak only for either kingdom any more than it can speak for any of the four countries alone. It is legally the Parliament of the bipartite United Kingdom.

    ” … if an Independence referendum had been had – and won? Scotland wouldn’t be an Independent country by the time the UK Brexit – unless Brexit is delayed?”

    Rubbish! As the law of the Kingdom of Scotland is based upon the people of Scotland being sovereign then whatever a majority of the legally sovereign people of Scotland decide is legally so. And don’t even attempt to come with the usual pish that because that is law made a long time ago it is not relevant. Here’s why – no act of the Westminster Parliament goes into law without the signature of Her Majesty Queen Elizabeth and that law goes back a long time before 1320.

    If a majority of Scots give Nicola the mandate to end the Union then the union has legally ended and there is no legally elected parliament of either the kingdom or country of England and, under English law Her Majesty is still legally sovereign. Her Majesty has to formally appoint, “HER”, Prime Minister, it is NOT a government title it is a royal title. The Prime Minister is legally a royal office holder not appointed by the parliament. The Queen calls in the leader of the party winning the election and invites that person to form, “Her Majesty’s Government”.

    Maybe I am just over-complicating things and asking silly questions. You seem pretty sure that you have all the answers – but then you always do and you are inevitably proved wrong. Eh! Now just go and show where I have been proven wrong, sensibledave?

    Mind you several, Rock for example, keep saying I’m wrong but, to date he, or she, has offered nothing by way of proof. Neither, for that matter have you.

    So there you go – either show where I have been proven wrong or apologise for that claim. BTW: I do not mind being proven wrong and often say, correct me if I’m wrong. Believe it or not I do actually mean it because I am a seeker after truth and not attempting to be a know-it-all.

  165. I see Jim Sillars is punting in the daily stranger that Dugdale’s and Brown’s federalist option may be a realistic alternative.

    How would federalism change the situation for the better which Scotland currently finds itself in?

    Westminster would still be in command of the Scottish economy, and if the Scottish government took a contrary position to that of Westminster.

    Would we end up being treated like how Trump is threatening to treat some of the states in the US.

  166. Robert J. Sutherland says:

    As we might expect, there’s a great article on the current situation, especially re timing, by Paul Kavanagh:

    weegingerdug.wordpress.com/2017/03/14/the-cards-are-in-scotlands-hands/

    One very salient point that he makes, that I at least had overlooked, is that Mayhem’s attempt to delay ScotRef is at least partly motivated by a wish to deny – by stealth – a vote to all EU nationals resident in Scotland.

    Since their livelihoods and futures are as much at stake as anyone else’s, for their sake as well as ours, we must protect the mandate against Unionist gerrymandering.

  167. heraldnomore says:

    Oh I see we have FRB closed again. Humza, yer tea’s oot pal…

  168. Arbroath1320 says:

    Just come across an interesting wee snippet by Richard Murphy on Tax and Renvenues.

    http://www.taxresearch.org.uk/Blog/2017/03/14/why-economic-data-provided-by-london-will-not-help-the-scottish-independence-debate/

    I think the crux of what he says is “take GERS with a humongous truck load of salt!”

    Anyone who quotes GERS, £15 Billion deficit as an argument against Scottish independence is either lazy, incompetent or does not understand where the figures come from in the first place to produce the GERS reports i.e. they come from WESTMINSTER.

    As Richard says at the very end:

    It’s an estimated set of accounts based on estimated revenues based on UK statistics as my emphases show. The debate needs better than that.

  169. twathater says:

    Mike geoo and stoker

    AN OPEN LETTER TO NICOLA STURGEON

    Nicola I watched daily politics today and was utterly appalled at Tommy Shepard , if this is going to be the level of disputation put forward by our (SNP SG MPS and MSPS ) we would be as well not bothering with a referendum .

    Tommy allowed 2 very incompetent MSPS to SPOUT DELIBERATE LIES , spurious MISINFORMATION and outright scaremongering , without in any meaningful way challenging them , some on the site are trying to deflect blame on to the interviewer but I am sorry to say the blame lies squarely with Mr Shepard .
    On watching the programme I was convinced that Mr Shepard was not even in the room .
    Too many SNP persons participating in the broadcast media are simply not good enough at it , they are time and time again being caught wrong footed or simply don’t have answers to challenges, they are constantly reacting rather than challenging, this is the wrong methodology ,you are allowing dubious and deliberate lies and obfuscation to register in people’s subconscious whilst your responses are frequently interrupted and talked over,not allowing the answer oxygen .
    Let us not forget the establishment drones are experts at this, they have centuries of disabling peoples ideas and dreams
    The Scottish people NEED convincing through proper facts spoken coherently and with conviction , that Scotland can survive and prosper,and make their OWN decisions on their and their childrens future, without being dragged along reluctantly with decisions made by their neighbours.

    I desperately want my country to be independent, to forge it’s own future , to make its own way in the world and to make its own decisions ,to decide how we raise our finances and how and who we spend them on ,to trade with who WE want ,to ensure that every citizen has a future without deprivation and homelessness , to utilise our resplendent resources for our citizens not for the benefit of pirates.
    I want ALL of these things, but unless the SNP SG step up and take the fight to the establishment and their unionist lackeys,fight fire with fire ,proact rather than react then we will all face 2014 disappointment again

  170. Arbroath1320 says:

    As a wee backup to my last post I came across this from Dr. Craig Dalzell.

    https://thecommongreen.scot/2016/11/18/beyond-gers/

  171. sensibledave says:

    Robert Peffers 5.11

    I completely get that you are committed Scottish Nationalist and I admire and respect that. I don’t know how to respond to you though when you write a screed like the one just did – other than to say, if you are right, why is there all this fuss? Why hasn’t the saintly Ms Sturgeon ddeclared Scotland an Independent company? Why does she accept rule from Westminster? Why does the SNP have Mps in Westminster, etc, etc.

    I bow to your apparent knowledge of history but I think this is one of those occasions where the “unwritten” word has taken president over time. Scotland is part of the Uk, Scotland’s Parliament exists at the gift of the Westminster Paliament. I am not saying it right, desirable or appreciated – but it definately is what it is. I know of know serious politician that takes the same view as you on these constitutional issues.

  172. jfngw says:

    Tompkins seems to prefer the WM system as this gives you a mandate. So if we extrapolate the constituency votes as FPTP then the parliament would look something like this

    SNP 104 seats
    Con 13 seat
    LibDem 7 seats
    Lab 5 seats
    Grn 0 seats

    Now that would be a stonking mandate!

  173. Dr Jim says:

    Watching parliament debating tax rises in the budget I was informed by a comment by a Tory MP who said that I was personally responsible for the national debt to the tune of £64.000 pounds as is every houshold in Britain because we don’t live within our means apparently and that’s why the Tory government has to impose restrictions on me, and for those too ill and disabled, well work will set them free and raise their standard of living so all good

    No mention of course that it was the F…..g banks that did it, not me, not you and not sick or disabled people, we never spent the F…..g money

    It was the F…..g banks!!!

    Vote Independence before they tax F…..g rainfall

  174. Robert Louis says:

    Must say, I agree with twathater above. Too many times SNP politicians who are not up to speed or able to provide cogent answers seem to be allowed to appear as and when they so wish on TV/radio. It just won’t do.

    Their are many within the SNP/Scot Gov ranks well able to debate, and it is they who should be visiting TV/radio studios.

    The SNP really, really, really needs to get to grips with this. The current free for all, just will not do. If you are in the scotgov or SNP and going on TV, you NEED to be up on all the arguments, and be able to debate.

  175. manandboy says:

    England’s relationship with Scotland (& all the Colonies). With a broad brush, naturally.

    First there is exploitation, which is uncovered and this results in the fear of being exposed for all to see. The fear brings forth lies, in an attempt to cover up the truth. The lies produce anger when the lies are not believed. The anger tries to force acceptance and acquiescence. When this fails, anger resorts to threats and outbursts of rage.
    There is no discussion at this stage, that is no longer possible. Rage then gives way to desperation, before losing control and descending into violence. Throughout, protests of innocence are made, mixed with accusations of guilt towards the innocent party.

    Meaningful dialogue is now impossible as anger conceives the belief that physical destruction is the best, and only, solution.

    Westminster remains a Colonial power and still holds dear it’s history and status as an Empire. But old colonial habits die hard, particularly when Scotland seeks to join the long list of other colonies who sought and regained their independence.

    Westminster’s strategy is to demonise Scotland in general and the SNP in particular, as divisive separatists whose only thought is to break up the ‘most successful political union ever seen’. No mention of England as a predatorial and rapacious Colonial power set on exploitation and control.

    The Act of Union was conducted by this same Colonial power in the same way and for the same reasons – exploitation and control.

    Theresa May is simply the latest British prime minister setting out to retain stolen property and maintain/restore the status of the British Empire.

  176. Giving Goose says:

    The leadership of the campaign will be vital, according to the former board member of Better Together, Craig Harrow, speaking on Radio 4.

    People trusted Darling more than Salmond.

    Probably true.

    I would suggest that Mr Salmond’s role in the forthcoming campaign is given careful consideration. He’s to easy a target for negativity and, potentially one where the label of “failure” can be applied.

    I personally cannot fathom why Mr Salmond is seen by voters in negative terms. I will guess that he motivates people to look themselves in the mirror and forces them to confront their subservience to Tory England. This then has a reaction that is self loathing and directed at the person who reveals the ugly truth.

    But I’m no expert, so let’s leave that there.

    I suspect that Miss Sturgeon is seen differently (although I have seen Yoons on social media declare that she “doesn’t speak” for them).

    So I’m guessing that leadership is key.

    Darling, Brown and the Labour party are discredited. Their true Tory colours were revealed and pinned firmly to the Tory mast!

    The Yellow Tory LibDems don’t really have a puppet that is prominent IMHO.

    Ruth Davidson might be the preference for the Tories.

    Maybe somone from outside politics might front Better Together 2.

    I think Lord Belborough from children’s series Chigley is perfect.

  177. Arbroath1320 says:

    Oops!

    Someone sweep Mayhem into the under stairs cupboard for a second will you. 😀

    https://twitter.com/neil1pat/status/841694393652391937

  178. Free Scotland says:

    At 5:28, the inappropriately named sensibledave proves yet again that he is completely out of his depth: while trying to sound intelligent, he demonstrates that he is unable to distinguish the meanings of words like “precedence” and “president.” Quel imbécile!

  179. Free Scotland says:

    More on sensibledave at 5:28 –

    Oh, and he doesn’t know how to spell “definitely,” and seems also to have a problem distinguishing between “know” and “no.”

  180. Nana says:

    @Arbroath1320

    Re your post, here’s a wee video

    https://twitter.com/AngusMacFergus/status/841706509075644416

  181. call me dave says:

    I’ve seen and heard about 10 MEPs with a microphone stuck in their face getting interviewed on the BBC / SKY today and they are all saying the same thing.

    Basically Scotland are in the EU once independent. 🙂

    Why so many, last time only a couple were needed and the answer is they will keep trying until they get one who will tow the MSM line, which is not going to happen.

    Radio 5 live got short thrift a wee while ago from MEP Hayes Eire who told them in spite of the interviewer trying to put words in his mouth.

    Just after that a woman interviewer was going ballistic at Sinn Fein spokesperson at the prospect of a NI referendum to unify Ireland.

    Finally Lord Campbell was on dishing NS and saying SNP very bad in Scotland while modestly turning down the opportunity to lead the ‘NO’ campaign this time, fobbing it off to a non-politician if you will.

    J. K. Rowling quoth the interviewer, she’s very popular up there … isn’t she ???? Ming muttered she was but.

    Good day on the radio and WoS twitter today. 🙂

  182. James Barr Gardner says:

    I often wondered how many postal votes Coburn got ?

  183. Free Scotland says:

    More on sensibledave the donkey at 5:28 –

    Should we assume that he meant “independent country” and not “independent company?”

  184. Socrates MacSporran says:

    Twathater, Robert Louis

    While accepting Tommy Sheppard did not have his best game on Daily Politic today, and endorsing your call for well-briefed SNP representatives on TV, this alone will not sort out the lies and BBC propaganda.

    On political TV, there is a presumption on the part of the BBC that, their guys can sprout as much pish as they like, but, they will not debate, this.

    What is needed is a decision by the SNP – we will no longer play by their rules.

    Whenever someone brings up the £15 billion deficit, the SNP spokesperson HAS TO say: “Haud oan a meenit pal – that’s pish and you know it” and not let them, as is the convention, move onto the next item with the matter of the £15 billion deficit hanging there.

    They have to be telt: “Naw, that’s a lie – because and have the lie explained. Even when they talk across them and try to move the debate on, the SNP spokesperson must stand firm and resolve the issue there and then.

    I guarantee, after two or three instances of having their running order mucked up, and their lies exposed, the BBC will either start to play fair – which works for the independence cause, or they will have to stop letting the SNP onto their shows, which will backfire with the public.

    The SNP spokesperson have to, if you like, get their retaliation in first. And, if Ruth, Kezia, Tompkins or whoever tries any of their nonsense, take the gloves off and gerrintaerum.

    Stop being polite and playing nice. Be firm, be consistent and don’t stand for their nonsense.

  185. stewartb says:

    Regarding the several posts concerning SNP MPs/MSPs and their performance in media interviews. I agree fully with the sentiments expressed. Its a mixed bag – some brilliant, others much less so – and overall they need to up their game.

    This is not a role that everyone is comfortable with or best suited to: I readily admit it would be beyond me.

    And its not just about having the key facts at one’s finger tips in order to rebut clearly and robustly. It is also about being expert in re-framing the whole discussion. I posted on recent threads some information on the work of the US professor of cognitive science and linguistics, George Lackoff.

    Apologies for repeating this: Lakoff argues that ‘fact checking’ and refutation are not enough – will not be effective in changing views – if communicated within the same ‘frame’, i.e. your opponents frame . I look forward to seeing some change in approach along this or similar lines soon!

    http://edition.cnn.com/videos/tv/2017/02/26/fact-checking-trump-without-repeating-falsities.cnn

  186. Breeks says:

    I’ll be quite frank, there is one issue in my head which needs some Robert Peffers type guidance.

    Supposing the credible scenario arises where Westminster seeks to refuse consent for the referendum, thus prompting the Scottish government to empower the referendum using Scotland’s own distinct sovereignty, doesn’t that set up a catch 22 situation?

    If the Scottish government thus steps outside the “joined” parliamentary sovereignty of Westminster, and exercises Scottish parliamentary sovereignty independently to press ahead with the ScotRef, then doesn’t that act by itself signal the end of the Act of Union, thus making an actual referendum on ending the Act of Union quite unnecessary?

    If Theresa May refuses to give Article 30 consent, it is a watershed event which formally brings down the final curtain on the Act of Union. The Scottish government doesn’t even need to act at all, merely exist as an entity. As Theresa May tries to subjugate Scottish sovereign aspirations, she exceeds her capacity and jurisdiction to do so, and simultaneously breaches the defining articles in the Act of Union, thus bringing it to an end.

    Not only does Nicola have Theresa on the ropes right now, this is actually a check mate scenario. It doesn’t matter what Theresa does, if she contests Scottish sovereignty she breaches the Union and ends it, yet, if she respects Scottish sovereignty she respects a Scottish sovereignty distinct and separate from U.K. sovereignty, thus ending the Union.

    Game over isn’t it? Unless somebody can change the laws of physics… no?

    The Act of Union is at last, and quite properly, undone by its own lack of legal competence and inherently paradoxical frailty.

  187. Hamish100 says:

    At Indy ref 1 interviews stuck th e boot in and we were too Nicey Nicey. We didn’t wish to upset he press or the BBC.
    If Scotland I.s worth fighting for than fight.Challenge them at all stages

  188. jfngw says:

    @Giving Goose

    Can’t see Davidson leading No, her documented tweets and statements regarding the effects of leaving EU would be used to challenge her credibility. How could someone so vocally remain lead effectively a leave the EU campaign. But she is a Tory so you never know.

  189. Mike says:

    Chris Baxter says:
    14 March, 2017 at 3:41 pm
    “The United Kingdom is a member of the EU – not England or Scotland.”

    NO the UK is a representative treaty between the member states of the UK which are the member states of the EU.

    A Treaty cant be a member state. It cant be any kind of a State.

  190. gus1940 says:

    I know that there isn’t a hope in hell that any broadcaster would allow it to happen but how about 2 debates with balanced panels where the subjects for debate are restricted to the following:-

    Program 1 – restricted to -The reasons why Scotland should be Independent and the benefits which would arise.

    Program 2 – restricted to the reasons why Scotland should NOT be Indpendent and the benefits of remaining as part of The UK.

    Could the media possibly be provoked and shamed into allowing such debates?

  191. Robert Louis says:

    Socrates,

    I wholly agree. On each and every occasion when these blatant falsehoods, like ‘oh you have a 15 billion deficit’ are used, they should be challenged on the spot. They MUST NOT be left hanging as though they are in fact correct.

    We need some in the SNP who can do it, to get stuck in. If 2014 taught us anything, it is that the UK media will not countenance giving Scottish independence a fair hearing. Right now so-called ‘journalists’ are scouring the EU for somebody (anybody) who will state Scotland has to join a queue, and Spain opposes Scotland in the EU etc.. etc.. etc..

    This is all the UK media do. They NEVER look at the issues properly at all. They are as anti Scottish and biased as they were in 2014.

    The editorial policy seems to be ‘right who can we find to rubbish Scotland today’. It is offensive, it is nasty, and we need to stop just putting up with it.

  192. Chick McGregor says:

    @jfngw 5:29 pm

    Great point.

  193. call me dave says:

    From WoS twitter but archived from Telegraph.

    Conservative MP Craig Mackinlay interviewed under caution over election expenses in South Thanet

    https://archive.is/ecXYH

  194. Macart says:

    RE: TV representation.

    I can think of only a handful of bods with the capability, confidence, experience and presence to take on a loaded studio. Pretty much all of our representatives can put together a good heartfelt standalone speech. Pretty much all of them have their heart in the right place. How effective they are as MPs I leave to their constituents to decide for themselves.

    How and ever, they’re just people. Most, I gather, hadn’t even considered politics or representation before indyref or the following GE. Precious few are slick polished career politicians with ready wit or soundbite to hand and we should be thankful for that, because it very much makes them one of us.

    I can’t speak for anyone else, but sitting in a studio with lights and camera pointed right at you and a loaded sofa would scare the living wossiname out of me. On a bad day, you’ll freeze, or be lost for the ready answer. You’ll be mobbed and humiliated. On a good day the answers will come, you’ll score hits and if your dander is up, give the opposition a roasting that they’ll never forget.

    I’d reckon it takes time to build that kind of aggression, confidence and experience for some. For others it may come naturally.

    But we should be aware right now that every interview is going to be an inherently hostile environment for our representatives. They’re going to have car crash interviews. They’re going to freeze in the headlights, get mobbed by loaded sofas and interviewers. They’re going to be bullied, patronised, sidelined and shouted over because the handful that are do have that experience can’t be everywhere or handling every telly appearance.

    By all accounts, today Mr Shepard got seagulled. He’s a good, intelligent speaker. He’ll live and learn.

  195. schrodingers cat says:

    call me dave
    I expected an official response from the eu regarding an indy scotland and today we got it

    Margaritis Schinas, Chief Spokesperson of the European Commission and a Deputy Director-General at the Commission’s DG Communications

    “Holyrood would have to seek membership of the European Union under Article 49 in the event of a ‘Yes’ vote in a future referendum” “The Barroso doctrine, would apply”

    the A49 is the route new members need to apply to join the EU. Ms Jacqueline Minor, the European Commission’s Head of Representation in the UK, although widely misquoted in the press in Feb, did also say via A49

    a50 is the route for continuing members or successor states, I think this was the hope of holyrood, if we win indyref2 before brexit, then we would not leave the eu/single market but be able to negotiate our EU or EFTA/EEA membership.

    but it appears, that an indy Scotland will be treated as a new member, although it would probably be fast tracked due to the support you mentioned

    upshot, it wont matter if indyref2 happens before or after we leave, I would prefer before for a number of reasons, but the indyref2 campaign needs to plan for the eventuality that we will be out before it happens

  196. jfngw says:

    I’m reeling from Rep Scot, 10 minutes of reasons why a ind ref may not happen, even a replay of Mr Barroso from last time. And a clip of a Spaniard ‘saying something similar’, not sure what as there was no translation of what was said. According to BBC a referendum can’t happen unless authorised!

  197. gus1940 says:

    Misreporting Scotland up to their usual dirty tricks tonight.

    Showing HoC debate we got to hear what May was saying but when it was Angus Robertson’s turn the sound was turned down so that we couldn’t hear his words and just to make absolutely sure the commentator talked over whatever he was saying.

    Well done Donalda.

  198. heedtracker says:

    Nice to see the BBC going UKOK mad already but this is just one more reason planet toryboy wanted out of the EU. Pound loses value by the day and

    http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/live/business-39230950

    Social media firms in Germany could face fines of up to 50 million euros if they take too long to remove illegal content including fake news.

    According to a new draft bill , individual executives could also be fined up to €5m euros for failing to act.

    Justice Minister Heiko Maas (pictured) said: “We have to increase the pressure on social networks. Too little illegal content is deleted, it’s not deleted quickly enough and it looks like the operators of social networks aren’t taking their users seriously enough.”

    The bill would among the toughest regulation social media companies face in any country.”

  199. Gary45% says:

    Robert J Sutherland@16.41,
    This is one of the many reasons the ScotYoons are “bricking it”.
    When Scotland becomes independent, all the snivelling troughers who see Westminster and the HOL as their pension cash-cow, will be told to GTF from North and South.
    Have a wee look at our “Quality” Representation in the HOL, I wouldn’t piss on any of them if they were on fire.
    The SNP are shouted down at every opportunity in Westminster, the party are showing the rest of Scotland what the ” equal family of nations” is really all about.
    Indy Ref 2, I would have it tomorrow, the sooner the better.
    The SNP are going to have to put on the DMs and start putting the boot in when blatant lies are being reported about Scotland.

  200. Cactus says:

    BREAKING…

    Theresa May to make emergency announcement at 9pm!!!

  201. heedtracker says:

    Our Tasmina gets a write up. We would never dream of mass deportations EU, whatever makes you think planet toryboy would use millions of lives as bargaining chips?

    http://www.huffingtonpost.co.uk/entry/david-davis-says-uk-will-not-deport-eu-citizens-after-brexit_uk_58c6cb1fe4b054a0ea6c4831?

  202. Cactus says:

    Only kiddin’ 🙂

    Article 50 trigger day digital countdown clock delayed until further notice.

    But..

    0 centuries, 0 decades, 0 years, 0 months, XX days..

    .. to go.

  203. Lenny Hartley says:

    O/T gordon Wilson on ch4 news , I used to have a lot of respect for this man, not now like Sillars the pair of them can gtf. Maybe Massey Fergusons is too much but not far off it.
    See some Tory is being investigated over the expenses scandal at the last ge. Maybe Mayhem will have to trigger another GE to keep her majority, things just get better 🙂

  204. jfngw says:

    Regarding SNP MP’s on TV.

    It is not easy appearing on these TV programmes especially when outnumbered and presented with a hostile host. They are not trying to let you make your point but catch you out on details you don’t know or that are even impossible to answer. When being attacked by all it requires quite a bit of self confidence or arrogance to come through it. After all look at Tompkins, talks nonsense but with great authority.

  205. mike cassidy says:

    Re the deficiencies in SNP personnel performances.

    We have to use humour.

    They should be laughing when crap like GERS is spouted.

    Hell, what’s the point of Sheppard having all those standup contacts and not using their expertise to school people in how to rip the Yoons a new one.

  206. Graeme says:

    OT
    Listening to Nicolas historic speech yesterday I was a bit disappointed I couldn’t hear the questions, I’ve enhanced the sound so the questions can be easily heard if anyone wants a copy it can be downloaded here

    http://www.mediafire.com/file/c2hll56rs8c5hq4/NC-filtered.mp3

    Graeme

  207. Golfnut says:

    @ breeks.
    I’ve been sort of making this comment all day regards asking, pleading and demanding permission for a referendum. Papers are full of this drivel as are the comments from unionists on Facebook.

    In Nicola’s speech, she says that she will be seeking authority from the Scottish Parliament to agree terms with the UK gov on section 30. The only institution she is asking anything of is the Scottish Parliament, not westminster, not May.

    Section 30 makes it a binding referendum, and on what terms make it so.
    Past experiences with westminster, demonstrate that it is not likely to be worth the paper it is written on, be it vows, conventions or treaties.

    If May does decide to discuss and put forward terms, then so does Nicola, and I’m pretty certain we could help her out with suggestions on what should be included.

    May refuses to discuss terms, looks bad for May. May puts forward onerous terms, looks bad for May. Nicola could include independent observers, exit polls, May refuses looks bad for May.

    What we sure as hell are not doing is asking permission to hold one, its not that we we actually need to. AS said there is more than one way to skin a cat, and there is.

  208. schrodingers cat says:

    nicola announces indyref2 before uk leaves
    Article 50 bill passed
    EU say a50 for an indy scotland and treated as a new member
    spain says it will veto an indy scotland
    nicola announces indyref2 could happen after uk leaves
    a very smug treeza in the commons today

    treeza just got back from europe, apparently she didnt discuss brexit
    if i were a fisherman or perhaps even gibraltan, i woud be worried today

  209. Clootie says:

    Lenny

    Just listened to Gordon Wilson on channel 4. How can a man who once led the party sink to being a tool of the unionist media….perhaps just…being a fool covers it!

  210. starlaw says:

    jfngw 6-51

    Saw same Gentleman speak in broken English on BBC news 24 he said “everybody had lots of sympathy for Scotland and Scotland would meet all the criteria etc” .. no threat from him.

  211. caz-m says:

    Hello my fellow Wingers, post regarding MSM interviews.

    Donald Trump stood at the podium in the US Presidential election and called the American MSM out as “Utter Scum” and “liars”.

    We could do with a bit of the Donald Trump School of Etiquette. (LOL)

    Our representatives really need to get a grip during media Interviews.

    The trick Trump learned during his Campaign was that the more abusive he was towards the MSM media, the more his support grew.

    Got to be worth a try because the present situation has to come to an end..

    Media training for all our reps is urgently required.

  212. ScottieDog says:

    Folks I see Fraser nelson is peddling deficit myths again.
    Please just take 6 minutes out and watch this video about how deficits actually work..
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=h661PkRUbFI

  213. Robert J. Sutherland says:

    schrodingers cat @ 18:49,

    (Old news. It was yesterday.)

    To paraphrase Marx (Harpo): “there ain’t no Barroso Doctrine”. Barroso was just winging it solo on Andrew Marr’s little puppet show for his pal Cameron, and now it’s being resurrected by the BritNat media. Surprise, surprise. (Not sure why you would want to help them, though.)

    And who exactly was the rentaquote? From Wikipedia:

    Margaritis Schinas … was appointed Deputy Director of the Bureau of European Policy Advisers by Commission President José Manuel Barroso.

    So he’s a Barroso placeman!

    This is the kind of dirty trick we can come to expect. Sources, sources, verify the sources!

    What the BritNats fear most is precisely what makes us strongest.

    As to further developments, I have the very strong impression that Nicola & Co. have gamed this whole thing very thoroughly in advance…

  214. heedtracker says:

    After all look at Tompkins, talks nonsense but with great authority.

    He’s got the authority of what though? the planet toryboy that dumped austerity on the poorest and made the rich richer still. My Slovene girlfriend is the classic tory in a classic tory media, full of shit.

    It has kept my Slovene girlfriend off Graun and Herald btl, but he’ll be back. He’s been touted as BetterTogether 2 leader but his insane rants btl have damaged his cred.

    Fake news there:D

    I have no idea if planet toryboy cares what my Slovene girlfriend says UKOK, btl Graun, but they should.

  215. mike cassidy says:

    Geeo 7.16

    This is the month when the extension to the investigation runs out. Chicken roosting time is here

    Presumably a UK general election would have to be held if the Tories lost their majority.

    I wonder if NS has taken this into her calculations.

    For it would be very hard for the SNP to better the last result.

  216. Cadogan Enright says:

    extraordinary explosion of vile misreporting right across the corporate and state media

    even bbc radio ulster this evening descended to depths I have never heard plumbed – and that is saying something

    Crick leading from the front again on channel 4 news, scouring scotland for opinions to support is obvious bias – not contet with his appalling list of untruths last night

  217. DerekM says:

    Westminster and the press be like rule brokentania blah,down with the EU gibber,battle of Britain yada,it was those pesky foreigners wot did it,we will show them take back control and they will be ruined mahahhhaa empire 2.0.

    EU be like are you going to sign A50 or not you fecking loonies.

    Scotland be like jeez get us the feck out of here.

    NI be like yea we agree with Scotland

    Gibraltar be like hey dont forget about us

    Wales be like oh fuck 🙁

  218. Roboscot says:

    What I find surprising is unionists going on about how successful the Union is when they’re discussing a proposal for Scotland to leave it. Half of Scotland and nearly half of Northern Ireland wanting to leave is not evidence of a successful Union.

  219. Cactus says:

    Nigel Farage on LBC radio ra now says..

    “The rest of the world call us Treasure Island!”

    Aye, but whose treasure?

  220. schrodingers cat says:

    Robert J. Sutherland
    Margaritis Schinas, Chief Spokesperson of the European Commission and a Deputy Director-General at the Commission’s DG Communications

    nb EU Commission’s DG Communications……………keeps the Commission abreast of political developments and of trends in public opinion and the media. It also coordinates communication campaigns within the Commission.

    no crystal ball required to note we will hear this guys name again.and again and again

    a49 application for an indy scotland as a new member appears very much the EU’s position

  221. Cactus says:

    “Nigel, we’re all making plans for you.”

  222. jfngw says:

    How to frame an unbiased question, BBC training exercise 1

    When talking to EU about Scotland.

    ‘Explain the difficulties of Scotland becoming a member of the EU, and why it will be near impossible?’

    If the interviewee is not responding appropriately then cut him/her off.

  223. Cactus says:

    Seems only appropriate.

    You knew it!
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gXNhL4J_S00

    Here’s another for the party:
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BTns_N9NcMg

    Stop the cavalry!

  224. Robert Graham says:

    BBC being very obliging just now in publishing Nicolas Tweet Questioning Maydays unelected premiership, how nice of them isn’t it.
    Aye f/in Right taking the piss more like, and making sure the widest possible audience , give a collective Tut Tut , The good people of morningside whisper ,Imagine her questioning our wonderful PM ,the common hussy , just like that other one that black one who our wonderful professor called a slut . Pass the Gin Fiona .

  225. Croompenstein says:

    I say more Tomkins please he is an absolute loonball. We’ve had wall to wall Prof Smirky lies on EBC today. No mandate etc we have to hope that there are folk out there who will decide to check the facts for themselves and find out Tomkins is as mad as tits on a he weasel.

  226. call me dave says:

    Come across this on WoS twitter and archived it from F.Times.

    What Nicola Sturgeon conjured from constitutional thin air

    https://archive.is/YweHD

  227. Peter says:

    If Scotland votes for independence, and rUK leaves EU, does Scotland remain in EU as the “UK”? If so, does Scotland take on all the debts and responsibilities of the UK?
    Just a thought.

  228. jfngw says:

    @heedtracker 7:26

    It was a sloppy sentence on my part, I wasn’t trying to infer he had authority but that he gives the impression of authority even while spouting nonsense.

  229. gus1940 says:

    According to The Torygraph ‘Nicola Sturgeon Is A Liar and A Traitor – Off With Her Head’

    Slight change from the Indyref1 campaign of ‘We Love you Scotland please don’t leave our precious Union’.

  230. Cactus says:

    In addition.

    Love Scotland.
    X.

  231. Robert J. Sutherland says:

    schrodingers cat @ 19:57,

    In other less grandiose words, he’s a PR stiff, not a policy maker.

    And still a Barroso placeman.

    The whole issue of ongoing access has never been formally contested, so there cannot possibly be a “Barroso Doctrine”. (Except, that is, in the fond imagination of one of his old cronies and in the BritNat media.)

    Negotiation to settle the details of a revised relationship, of course, but “out in the furthest circles of darkness and queuing among the beggars at the door”, nope.

    In contrast to the belief of its detractors, the EU can be extraordinary supple when it wants to be (viz. the fast incorporation of the former GDR).

    As I believe we will discover if we have the gumption to make history ourselves.

  232. Robert J. Sutherland says:

    Meh. “… can be extraordinarily supple”, that should say…

  233. Robert Graham says:

    Apparently Mayhem is going to treat us to a visit shortly, I wonder if she’s trying to patch up the obvious slur and mistaken brick wall approach that has worked for her previously.
    What would really make a difference, would be if she joined Nicola in a walk about in Glasgow, now that would really show she is being really honest in her statement she was looking after all of us .
    I am sure her openness would be appreciated.

  234. Al Dossary says:

    @Cactus, 7:51pm

    I believe the term used by the rest of the world was the “Honey Pot”. The reason being that they could charge whatever exorbitant price they wanted for consumer goods and we were stupid enough to pay it.

    Case and point being that the $200 price of any new technology would simply transpose to £200, even at he rate of $1.50 to the GBP.

  235. Lenny Hartley says:

    The first executive order of a newly Independent Scottish government should be to make it compulsary for anybody who seeks to express their views on politics to read Wings over Scotland on a regular basis. I am getting frustrated having to put people right on face book. I’m afraid the too wee, too stupid and to poor myth still holds true for many.
    The bile I am seeing from English based commentators has increased to levels I never saw during Indy Ref 1. I am certainly not feeling the love from England.

    Think it’s gonna be a fun 18 months or so 🙂

  236. Cactus says:

    Ye know what they say..

    “A week is a lang time in political announcements.”

    Strange, some things are SO simple.

    Vote Yes! or Yes!

    It’s your choice, an it’s a choice furra new generation 😉

  237. sarah says:

    I think another bout of “BBC Mis-Reporting Scotland” posters is called for. With some variants to cover STV/Ch4/MSM.

    Nana, could you use your influence here, please?

  238. schrodingers cat says:

    “out in the furthest circles of darkness and queuing among the beggars at the door”, nope.

    i never thought for a moment we would be, i imagine scotland would be fast tracked.

    but we will be out of the eu with or without the ruk and will need to apply as a new member

    we would be out o the single market after the indyref and before we finally leave the uk

  239. Bob Mack says:

    Independence can come from a number of sources. The people of Scotland is one.
    The people of England is another. I think as Nicola frustrates them again and again ,the clamour for separation from England itself may just get very loud indeed.

  240. Cactus says:

    Aweright Al Dossary ~

    Indeed, we got the runny honey money!

    Sweet.

  241. Rock says:

    Saint Theresa of England and Wales has no option but to deny permission until after Brexit has been completed, or the Scottish colony is lost.

    According to Scotland’s greatest legal expert of all time:

    Robert Peffers,

    “All we need do is to go ahead and do what we wish and let them attempt to stop or prevent our exercise of what, under Scots law, is our legal sovereignty and let them take legal action.”

    That would amount to UDI. Who in their right mind wants that?

    The Yes movement has hardly 50% support.

    There is no way Scotland’s MPs and MSPs could be sure of a majority if they stood for re-election in such a scenario.

    I very much doubt that the SNP would go down that way.

    It is now or never for “sovereign” Scots to take matters into their own hands, under the guidance of “Lawyers for Yes”:

    Breeks,

    ” 4) We secure judicial review at Court of Session and have Scotland’s inalienable sovereignty recognised as the prevailing (if widely misunderstood) reality, prompting an emergency plebiscite to determine what we should do about it.

    Don’t know about you, but I’m liking option 4… a lot.”

  242. Rock says:

    Scotland’s SNP MPs and MSPs.

  243. Scott says:

    As Kez Tank Ruthie are dead against another Indy why don’t they cal for a vote of no confidence on the government and see where that gets them.They don’t have the guts I say.

  244. Liz g says:

    Breeks @ 6.13
    I am nay Robert Peffers, Breeks but will try,the best I can with the wee bit I do kind of know to answer you till, as I am sure he will Robert turn’s up to give the details that you are looking for.

    Firstly it’s no the Act/Act’s of the Union that we are trying to Repeal…… It’s the Treaty of the Union……..
    It’s the Treaty that gives the Act’s the force of law,and all the other Act’s that Westminster dream up.
    The only thing is any and all Act’s must be written to be compatible with Scottish Law,and as far as I know they mostly are -so much for Westminster’s absolute soverenty that must always bend it’s language to our Laws- but that’s an aside.

    Anyhoo the Treaty term’s and conditions have been broken many times,and even had the bearer’s of our Soverenty been willing to address this, keeping the Treaty in place and everything that went with it was enforced at the point of a gun.
    Untill recently……Enter. Us,oh and the internet, around the same time London want’s to “portray” itself as a peaceful democracy.

    All of which means that our recessed Parliament (the Sovereign one) is stuck for all practical purposes in 1707.
    So should our Independence come about by the Scottish parliament returning to Edinburgh from Westminster.
    Which is no impossible to imagine should those idiots mess with or refuse another referendum.
    Other than the things that could be demonstrated to be Scottish Parliamentry procedure (and I would wager those documents haven’t been preserved ) we would be organising as we went along.
    I would be deeply suspicious of anyone who is saying that they know how it should be run.
    So while we could indeed use that route if we had to,it would take a bit of planning and doesn’t allow for a deal about our getting our stuff back.

    Hope that helps…..And don’t forget it’s just a bit of an opinion.

  245. mike cassidy says:

    Speck of rationality amidst the yoonstorm.

    The legal situation re calling a referendum.

    http://archive.is/AIk5N

  246. Cactus says:

    @the people of Scotland ~

    I’ve never been proud, only ever been passionate about Scotland.

    Superlative every time.

    Wiki:
    “A superlative, in grammar, is an adjective describing a noun that is the best example of a given quality. In other words, a superlative describes a noun that has more of some quality than any other.”

    Same as you, yeah, eh, aye?

  247. ScottieDog says:

    So along with outlander what else is gonna be banned. Gregory’s Girl?

  248. Gfaetheblock says:

    I don’t understand fact 4.

    If we wanted to get out before brexit, we should have the ref this year. We will not have time to exit uk, stay in Eu (which will need negotiated, as would we retain U.K. opt outs or get a new deal). So we are exiting EU come what may, and then will need to try and enter on new terms. If we really wanted to stay in the EU, we need to have the ref in 2017. Why wait?

  249. Big Jock says:

    I actually think May has the absolute arrogance to say no to Holyrood. If this is how she behaves in EU exit negotiations. England is going to find itself despised and kicked out very swiftly.

    In Scotland we will have to make our own decision on how to react to a colonial dictator. That will require grit and determination. Mark me this is going to get bitter and acrimonious . We might not need a referendum. We might have to call an election.

  250. Arbroath1320 says:

    Sorry if this has already been posted. 😉

    Break out your Union flags peeps. 😀

    Her Loyal Highness of politics is visiting Scotland … at some point … to forge a “concensus” over Brexit. 😀

    Theresa May is planning a tour of Wales, Scotland and Northern Ireland in an attempt to build consensus before she triggers article 50 and embarks on the formal Brexit process, the Guardian understands.

    http://archive.is/1u2Qn

  251. yesindyref2 says:

    @Arbroath1320
    Might be time for this again:

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DiMXuEmqAHA

  252. dakk says:

    The ‘Backside Principle'( predictatext sagely inserted that instead of Baroso Principle,sounded right) does not seem like law or a particular Act would surely have been quoted by his placeman.

    Did the Baroso Principle apply to DDR,and what precedent ( or as stupitdave’said ‘president’)did it’s accession create?

  253. McDuff says:

    twathater.

    My thoughts entirely.
    To many SNP representatives are not responding at interviews with assertion, passion and facts and are allowing the opposition to look credible and informative when in fact they are lying and could easily be exposed.
    Indy2 is going to be vicious so its time to take the gloves off and go on the offensive.

  254. Big Jock says:

    On talking to a few swithering no voters. One thing is really striking. For most of the 45 we don’t give a second thought. We will vote for Scotland as an instinct. They actually have to think about voting for their nation. So to us it seems so unnatural and hard to get our heads around.

    It’s like saving a member of your family or a friend from drowning. We don’t way up the risks or consider alternatives. We are instinctive yes voters. They are conditional yes voters.

    In their minds unless they have a certainty that they won’t drown or catch pneumonia. Then they probably won’t act. But there are no certainties, no guarantees with anything. Sometimes it’s just the right thing to do and self preservation is not important.

    I am fed up with people giving me lists of guarantees they want before voting. I can’t spoon feed them and can guarantee nothing. They need to stop treating their nation like a business decision and make some effort to reach a less crass opinion.

  255. packhorse pete says:

    Sensible analysis from The Independent on the relationship between May and Scotland – and how the foolish May will have to modify her arrogance and condescension.

    http://www.independent.co.uk/voices/brexit-nicola-sturgeon-scotland-indyref2-independence-europe-theresa-may-hypocrite-a7629686.html

  256. BBC Scotland Tells Lies says:

    The BBC don’t interview SNP MPs/MSPs, they aggressively interrogate them.

  257. Sarah says:

    @Gfaetheblock at 9.15 p.m. – I agree. I prefer a 2017 referendum to cut short the time available for dirty tricks and MSM bias.

    Also because business and EU research funding decisions are being made NOW – they need to know soonest that Scotland will be in the EU. If we’re out, we will lose funding and businesses.

    And as previously posted, we need the “BBC Mis-reporting Scotland” posters again.

  258. Arbroath1320 says:

    BBC interviewer: Scotland would have to apply to join the EU?

    German MEP: for sure but as all their laws already meet standard it would very quick.

    BBC interviewer: erm … well…erm … oh … uh … thank you for that!

    I think there is only one thing I can say after that exchange … TELT!

    😀

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eQzm0FXXerM

  259. jfngw says:

    I see we are now ‘subsidised’ by up to £1600/head more, what are the bets it will be £2000 by the referendum date. Found this on the, 2015 declared bankrupt, Alison Pearson Telegraph column, being lectured on financial fortitude by someone who was declared bankrupt, what next.

  260. schrodingers cat says:

    both kez and tomkins said they would vote against indyref2 in holyrood next week

    both also said labour and tories in westminster wouldnt oppose the section 30

    indyref2 is happening
    we just need to adapt our campaign or the eventuality that we maybe out or still in when the vote arrives. also accept that we will be leaving the eu regardless, ie, if sept 18 next year, it will be 18 months to leave the uk officially, and we will need to re apply, whether that is for eu or efta/eea membership

  261. call me dave says:

    @Arbroath1320

    Aye I saw that one… a cracker init! Thanks for posting.

  262. Arbroath1320 says:

    Tomorrow’s National front page is AWESOME … as per usual. 😉

    Apparently there is a new poll showing backing for independence at an all time high with a huge surge showing 72% of young people ant to go it alone. 😀

    Don’t panic though peeps cause the Secretary of State for Westminster tells US that there is NO appetite for either another independence referendum or indeed independence itself! 😀

  263. schrodingers cat says:

    Arbroath1320

    BBC interviewer: Scotland would have to apply to join the EU?

    German MEP: for sure but as all their laws already meet standard it would very quick.

    very probably true

  264. schrodingers cat says:

    Big Jock
    I listened to call kaye (beattie) today, first time in years

    along with the usual zeebs from both sides, i did notice a couple o reasonabley intellegent and “convincing” yes2nos

    these should be our target group.

    we should try and target them, call a rally for them, they can be convinced, we just need to listen to what they want

  265. Croompenstein says:

    Aw BTL on this is brilliant from Richard Murphy on a certain dogfood salesman

    Kevin is not, it seems, too good with data

    And poor Billy Mitchell, the Russians are after our socks!!

    Perhaps the plan is to cosy up to the Russians and invite them in to your waters to fish and deplete socks further than even the eu have managed to do

    https://tinyurl.com/jcktt2x

  266. Cadogan Enright says:

    Nichola’s fundraiser going at more than £100,000 a day

    share it widely https://www.ref.scot/

  267. Cadogan Enright says:

    Nicola’s fundraiser going at more than £100,000 a day

    share it widely https://www.ref.scot/

  268. call me dave says:

    The National front page tomorrow. Oooh!Planes.

    https://twitter.com/ScotNational

    I’ve bought everyone since it started…for the X-word you know.
    🙂

  269. yesindyref2 says:

    Aye well, I’ve been mulling this over:

    http://www.thenational.scot/news/15153546.The_National__will_help_deliver_independence_____but_we_need_your_support/

    and I say, as they do in Rugby: “Use it – or lose it”.

    And we need to spread the word.

    @Rock: your mission if you accept it is to get 10 new subscribers a week. This posting will self-destruct in 10, 9, 8 …

  270. Arbroath1320 says:

    I’ll believe you C.M.D. … Millions of Nay sayers would not however. 😀

  271. Arbroath1320 says:

    We really REALLY need to get out of this xenophobic greed ridden Tory ruled broken Britain. 😀

    http://archive.is/TXWsT

  272. stu mac says:

    @Big Jock 9:28
    ========================

    The thing is there are none of these certainties in remaining in the UK union; indeed things are getting very uncertain indeed. The question is there seem to be two directions. One towards a horrible neo-liberal dystopia, the other, via Independence, away from it. Independent countries will always have problems but can you see an Independent Scotland moving towards what we are being led towards by PM May? I can’t.

  273. schrodingers cat says:

    poll in telegraph

    support for union at 57%

    revs twitter feed????

  274. HandandShrimp says:

    Not sure what is going on with the polls. Some seem to be saying that a Yougov poll in the Times has No on 57% and the National has a front page saying Yes at a high which presumably must be plus 50%

    Someone has their wires crossed or there are two conflicting polls. Neither can have been run since the announcement yesterday. Very weird.

  275. Sinky says:

    Newspaper headlines full of SNP stories. Who do Sky has on to review them….some guy from UKIP

  276. Tackety Beets says:

    Today I thought I would engage in a bit of catch up with a fellow Yesser , started talking about the “street folk” commenting on the news ……I was cut short with “I widna waste ma time listening to ony $hit£ on the BBC , just puts ye in a bad mood” pause for breath ” I’m f******g Voting YES! No need to listen to ony maer $hit£ ….. It’s aa been said! ”

    Maybe he has a point .

    Apologise busy day so not read the full thread.

    I’m thinking of the wider situation that NS will actually try to get the minds to consider the arrogance of WM to continually ignore the views of Scotland ” Equal partners” etc ” Lead the UK ” etc

    I look forward with excitement whatever NS does , Wooo hoooo

  277. One_Scot says:

    A quarter of a million raised in two days, that is some going.

    https://www.ref.scot/home

    But judging by the amount of lies and deceit being pushed out about Scotland from BBC, ITV ans Sky, we are going to need every penny we can get to have any chance of overcoming them.

  278. yesindyref2 says:

    ITN it’s a Yougov poll for the Times at 57% against, so I guess it’s some other poll at 50%+ for The National. Fieldwork dates – and the question could be the difference.

    What was funny was Peston a bit doom and gloom, though with a fair enugh point that Andrew Wilson was reported as Scotland fsked for 10 years, but what he actually said was it would take 5 years or more to get the deficit down – totally different. Then a cut to presumably the STV guy “oh yes, YES flags and posters out already, and don;t forget it’s one problem Indy against the other Brexit”. Hehe.

    Last Ref ITV were bad, STV OK, perhaps this time it will be ITV OK, STV good.

    Can’t wait for that National poll …

  279. Bob Mack says:

    The You gov poll in the Times is not well crafted. Too Oman questions re in /out, part of etc. Rev could rip it to bits.

  280. ronnie anderson says:

    http://www.yes2-scotland.scot/

    Please Share the above link its selling Harry Sahm merchandise . Yessers have been coned by him when he operated from a flat at 35 Whitehill St Denniston.

  281. Bob Mack says:

    Deficit? No one anywhere could tell me how much tax Marks and Spencer in Scotland paid last year. No one can tell me how much tax B and Q paid last year, or come to that As a, Tesco or any other major company. This also applies to smaller companies. However despite this lack of total knowledge they state Scotland has a deficit. Amazing stuff.

  282. Hamish100 says:

    little englanders mindset— leave the EU it costs too much– stick with Scotland it costs……………

    pssst dont tell them

    we need their oil, their fish, their hydro and wind turbines for electricity, their gas fields, their farmland, their whisky, their brains, their land, their forests, their tourism, their universities, their soldiers, their fresh air, our nuclear submarine pens…….

  283. jfngw says:

    Some chapppy on newsnight, think he is a Tory but missed beginning of interview, telling us Sturgeon is still bluffing. It is only an opening gambit, how little he understands.

  284. HandandShrimp says:

    jfngw

    This is good. They might be tempted to vote for a section 30 to call our bluff 🙂

  285. Dr Jim says:

    National poll on 16 and 17 year olds 70% YES

  286. yesindyref2 says:

    @jfngw
    Day before Indy Ref 2 the Tories will still be penguin-flapping around saying “it’s not a question of could there be a referendum, it’s should there be a referendum”.

    Oh yes, and “Sturgeon’s bluffing. The burly men told me so.”.

  287. Mike says:

    Telegraph poll is exclusive of 16 17 year olds. Seems they “Weighted” it heavily with elderly voters in relative terms.
    Bet they didn’t include any EU non UK citizens. Home owners only?.
    So many ways to manipulate polls to give desired results.

  288. Arbroath1320 says:

    Don’t panic chaps/chapesses but you NEVER heard about the news about the new Type 26 Frigates from Westminster government. … OFFICIAL! 😀

    https://twitter.com/GAPonsonby/status/841785843593416704

  289. geeo says:

    Jeezo…..Scotland in Union rocket on Scotland tonight !!

    New depths sunk.

  290. yesindyref2 says:

    Sh…weppes I forgot. On ITN the important thing in that youGov poll is that support for having an Indy ref was at 52%. Which makes an arse of all those saying the majority of Scots don’t want one.

    Over to you, Theresa …

  291. msean says:

    Who would have thought it,eh? Another poll arrives just in time 🙂

  292. dakk says:

    @Hamish 100
    ‘we need their oil, their fish, their hydro and wind turbines for electricity, their gas fields, their farmland, their whisky, their brains, their land, their forests, their tourism, their universities, their soldiers, their fresh air, our nuclear submarine pens…….’

    And most of all they need us to beat the shit out of and show how superior they are.

  293. Terry says:

    Scotnight Rona to scotland in Union guy “you only had 100 at your conference today” lol

    Hurrah. Excellent Lesley riddoch on now. Cogent and convincing.

  294. Robert Louis says:

    Just to echo what some others above have already said, we need to support indy supporting media, becasue within just 24 hours it is clear the BBC will be just as bad as last time, with blatantly biased propaganda, and the rest of the media will be full of the same old scare stories too.

    Buy The National newspaper – or get a digital subscription. Try to get a subscription to either the digital or print version of iScot magazine.

    Come on folks, this is it. Support the pro indy media. Oh, and by the way, the front page of The National is rather spiffing tomorrow.

  295. caz-m says:

    The Times Poll seems to be a UK wide Poll. Looks a bit of a mess.

    hopefully some Winger will work it out.

    5036 UK adults were questioned on 14 Mar 2017.
    Results are weighted to be representative of the GB population:

    https://yougov.co.uk/opi/surveys/results#/survey/199d5070-089c-11e7-80fa-d2249ae0b02d/question/6bbd2dd0-089c-11e7-b2a1-aada186fb1ac/region

  296. Elmac says:

    I was born in Scotland to an English mother. My wife was born in England with an English father. We have many relatives and friends south of the border and much sympathy and ties with them. This is not about being English, Scottish or even Polynesian. It is about desiring the fairest and best sytem of government we can devise and ridding ourselves of the lies, corruption and self interest that infests Westminster politics. I only wish our relatives and friends south of the border had the same option – no doubt they would wish the same.

    Many feel we should be gentle in our attitude to no voters in the hope we can open their eyes and convert a few. If we lose the next referendum it will be because people are either ignorant and blind to what they are being fed or have their noses in the UK trough in one way or another. In other words stupid or corrupt. I am sorry if that offends but it is the way I feel.

    As an aside, my wife and I are pensioners and have discussed relocating to the EU if we fail to get independence this time round. However, we have realised that this would mean Scotland would not be part of the EU and reciprocal health service rights would probably not exist. We will be trapped in a corrupt regime we abhor. For us it is independence or bust.

  297. jfngw says:

    The only poll that matters regarding calling a referendum is the 69 to 59 likely support at Holyrood, this was done using a much larger sample.

  298. Cactus says:

    Take the upper hand, maybe it’s a question of..

    “It’s not a question of should there be a referendum, it’s a question of could there be a referendum?”

    Yes!

    That SHOULD wrong-foot them and have em flapping around.

  299. HandandShrimp says:

    The SSAS poll as covered by the Hootsman has Yes on 46% which is the highest they have ever recorded for Yes.

    Not sure what the YouGov poll is on but it would seem that the numbers are all over the place. I’m guessing that actually it is still pretty much on a knife edge

    To be honest it doesn’t mean much as in 18 months and a Brexit deal on the table people will have long forgotten these polls. However, if the Yougov poll says 52% want a referendum that will rattle Struth’s cage. Probably the most relevant figure right now.

  300. Robert Graham says:

    Dont go out chaps its real dirty out there so much bile and hatred about , I wonder where it all came from , has it always been there ? just kinda bubbling under the surface . I suppose we should have guessed with the comments of Frogs _ Micks _ Wops -Ities – Poles etc anybody they dont hate ?

  301. Effijy says:

    There are a great many posts who are outraged at the blatant bias and propaganda promulgated by the Union’s BBC

    Some newer visitors may not know that there is a petition already established, with almost 92,000 signatories, proclaiming a public enquiry is required to them in their tracks, or at very least Prove to them that in great numbers, we have the measure of their Unionist deeds.

    How wonderful it would be to reach 100,000 signatures.

    If you don’t think protests like this are worth it, just stand by and watch it continue, and escalate!

    The choice is yours!

    https://you.38degrees.org.uk/petitions/independent-enquiry-into-bbc-bias-regards-scottish-independence-referendum

    Fund Raiser for SNP Independence fund now Just short of £250,000. I put in £50, can anyone make that last bit up to the big number after one day?

    https://www.ref.scot/donate

  302. Arbroath1320 says:

    Just in case some folks are getting a wee bit down about the Telegraph opinion poll carried out at Celtic Park after Sunday’s game here’s a wee heart lifter for you all. 😉

    http://archive.is/Ibfbc

  303. Legerwood says:

    I noticed a tweet from GA Ponton by about Sarah Smith asking leading questions.

    “”Sarah Smith using provocative and loaded language in her item on News at Ten. “SNP demanding” … etc. I have ZERO respect for this person.””

    I saw her piece on the 6 o’clock news when she interviewed Mike Russell. Her second ‘question’ started with a definitive statement to the effect that Mrs May was in control and there was not much that the SNP or SG could do it. I was so taken aback I cannot remember if there was a question in it.

    You can see it on it layer- 10 min in.

    Ms Smith has form for this type of thing. She was prone to it when she was on CH4 News too. And she definitely does not like the SNP.

  304. BJ says:

    I found this interesting and voted in it.

    http://www.moneysavingexpert.com/poll/

  305. stonefree says:

    @ wathater 5:21 pm
    Totally agree, Some MSPs and MPs are being shoddy and lazy ,
    I feel that I’ve become a Labour type supporter(The Dug and Rosette Syndrome),in that I’m supporting the party and have not the slightest respect for the man…
    Didn’t say I was going to support labour

  306. Arbroath1320 says:

    There is only one wee problem with that link Ronnie … I just she wasn’t such a wall flower. I just wish she would jump down off the fence and call it like it is. 😀

  307. Phronesis says:

    George Lakoff -mentioned further up the thread- and co-author Elisabeth Wehling (The Little Blue Book) give a chapter and verse guide on how to fight back against the language of extreme conservatism, to articulate clearly and forcefully the link between Democrats moral values and policies. Written for the American political scene it is eminently adaptable to the needs of Indyref2.It is concise, easy to read and gives plenty of pointers in how to unpick the language and by inference deconstruct the thinking of those who would oppose any ambition on Scotland’s part to self -govern.

    ‘Messaging is about thinking, not just language. To get language right, you have to understand the thought it conjures up…
    We recommend sincerity and transparency. Understand your values, speak them out loud, repeat them, use the facts honestly and link facts and policies overtly to values. Do this over and over…we have a moral duty to communicate effectively, honestly and transparently to bring together our values , our major frames, fact and polices…the most important practice to avoid is repeating conservative language. By repeating their language, you repeat their ideas, enabling the ideas and values behind the language to enter the brains of the public…The point is that the best defense is a powerful offense. A basic result from cognitive science is always to put the positive first. Whatever comes first sets the frame and determines how facts are interpreted. The initial framing structures for the whole discourse whether you are arguing against or for that framing’

    Whilst our political reps are out there in the media Badlands articulating the positive language of Indyref2- messaging is also visual,highly symbolic and uplifting when encoded in a collective endeavour that effortlessly links the political with the public sphere.

  308. Marcia says:

    The poll mentioned in the National is the SSA survey. At the start of the 1st Referendum it had support for Independence at 23%. So it has doubled since then. We could have a reverse of 2014 where it possible that the youth come out in record numbers to counteract the elderly voters.

  309. On 9th October 2004 Professor Adam Tompkins addressed a Socialist Scottish Republican rally on Calton Hill Edinburgh supporting Colin Fox, Tommy Sheridan and Rosie Kane.

  310. Capella says:

    @ Elmac – you are not alone. Even after one day we can all feel the howling gale of indignation roaring in through our media receivers. In my case, radio and internet.

    I don’t think they will be able to keep up this level of hysteria for 18 months. So plenty time for calm discussions with friends and neighbours to get the facts out there.

    Meantime, I’m chucking in as much as possible to the Indy fundraisers and media outlets.

    This time we need proper oversight of the voting process. It’s necessary to combat the propaganda but also to be able to trust the elections in May and the referendum.

  311. yesindyref2 says:

    Scotland in Union apparently got 1,000 supporters in 1 hour after their signup started.

    I’m looking forward to seeing Donald Trump, Mickie and Minnie along with Donald Duck, Little and Large, Ken Dodd and his Diddy Men, Noddy, the Wombles, Tom and Jerry, the Soup Dragon, Nessie …

  312. scotsbob says:

    @BJ 11:27
    It is a very influential site.

    I hope you would join in the discussion forum where unionists rarely have their lies and false statistics challenged.

  313. icyspark says:

    Another new poll, this time for the Daily Mail by Survation.

    Yes 47%
    No 53%

    I’m not 100% sure if those figures are correct as I’m trying to zoom their front page.

  314. Glamaig says:

    So many angry, presumably English, people on the BBC website comments wanting to get rid of Scotland, and I just cant decide whether to give them up-votes or down-votes.

  315. Stoker says:

    To all newbies lurking:

    The post at 11:21pm by Effijy includes a link to a site named 38 Degrees, the link is a marketing con and “Effijy” well knows that. The Parliamentary Petitions committee does NOT entertain petitions from private commercial companies such as 38 Degrees. I proved that on here many months ago with a formal response from the PPC. The company involved is only inteterested in getting its hands on your details, be warned not conned.

  316. Arbroath1320 says:

    I’m hearing from SKY “sources” that those polled were leaving Celtic Park after the Rangers vs Celtic game on Sunday Icyspark. 😀

  317. Nana says:

    @Scotsbob & BJ

    I noticed the money saving site poll earlier and took note of this thread.

    I too object to their wording

    “Nicola Sturgeon has demanded a second referendum”

    https://twitter.com/MoneySavingExp/status/841711100416675841

  318. Cactus says:

    I know, I know, I know, but just furra laugh, imagine..

    Scotland & the rUK all got to vote in our awating new Scotref.

    I know Yes will win convincingly by ourselves, but say:

    Should Scotland be an independent country?

    Scotland: Yes: 49.99% No: 50.01%
    rUK: Yes: 60% No: 40%

    How would Westminster / the rUK / HYS react to that?

  319. Breastplate says:

    Glamaig,
    I always thank them for their support for Scottish independence. For some reason it seems to confuse them.

  320. yesindyref2 says:

    @Stoker
    I agree – 38 degrees is a con. It allowed Gordon Brown to take over a petition and turn it against Indy supporters.

    @Breastplate
    Indeed. I often use them to invite people sick of Brexit to move to Scotland and join us in our inclusive Indy society. I’ve even had the occasional “yes please” kind of reply 🙂

  321. Arbroath1320 says:

    So there I was lying on the couch just wondering, as you do, how great a job Mrs. May is doing as the P.M. of Great Britain and Northern Ireland.

    NHS … in crisis
    Police … in crisis
    Social Care … in crisis
    N.I.C. for Self Employed … in crisis
    Education … in crisis

    Of course how can anyone forget the fantastic news that the Brexit plans were on track and will be announced on Tuesday sometime before end of March.

    I thought … Hmm … it does appear that she has a few problems to sort out here.

    Then of course we had the rug pulled from under her feet yesterday when Nicola Sturgeon announced plans for independence referendum. Oops Mrs. May did not like that one little bit … did she.

    Close on the heels of Scotland’s announcement of independence plans we had the fantastic news, well it was fantastic for everyone in Eire not so fantastic for Mrs. May, that plans were evolving for the reunification of Ireland. … Ooops!

    Wow! I thought this was a wee bit unfair now. Could these countries not see Mrs. May was having a wee bit of trouble on the home front?

    Have no fear though peeps the fun has not yet finished. It now appears that the E.U. is seriously looking at DELAYING the beginning of Brexit talks until JUNE!

    http://archive.is/u7K72

  322. Dr Jim says:

    Given the bubbling black cauldron of hellish hatred in Yoon world from the start of the first day of their hatefest against Scotland and that newspapers like the Telegraph can make calls of open death threats on it’s pages to the FM and get away with it, they don’t seem to care to learn the lesson of recent history or maybe the price is right for them, who knows

    But one thing I do know and it’s that the FM is about to embark on two years of the most intense fetid smelling bitterness directed towards her we’ve seen to date and money can’t buy what she’s doing for us or the damage to her own health and family well being

    Let’s hope at the end of this campaign we can pay her back with the victory she’ll surely deserve and we’ll savour

    It’s the Unionists job to be vile, it’s our job to be better

  323. Still Positive says:

    Well said Dr Jim @1.12

    One of my friends posted on FB an article that said Scotland’s economy was ‘weak’.

    On Monday night at our local SNP meeting we had a conversation about Scotland’s exports.

    Our MSP told us that the SWA knew that what they exported did not tie up with what the UK said was exported from Scotland.

    Also, Scottish farmers of beef cattle have had to tag all cows since the BSE crisis and they know where the cows are farmed, which fields they graze in and which abattoir they are slaughtered in, and which country they are exported to BUT they do not know which port they leave from.

    That is a huge deception which, I fear, we will only know (like a lot of other things.) once we are fully independent.

  324. Still Positive says:

    PS I should also add that our SNP MPs have been trying to find out the above info since they were elected in May 2015.

    Without much success, I may add.

  325. yesindyref2 says:

    So to sum up what Sturgeon did on monday to May there’s this:

    http://www.navweaps.com/Weapons/WNUS_16-50_mk7_Iowa_pic.jpg

  326. Robert Peffers says:

    @Breeks says:14 March, 2017 at 6:13 pm:

    “I’ll be quite frank, there is one issue in my head which needs some Robert Peffers type guidance.”

    Hi, Breeks, sorry I wasn’t online to read your comment. I’m in the process of ditching my present ISP and going fibre and there’s going to be a spell without any online time due to a technical holdup.

    Anyway, the only way that the sovereign people can pull out of the union is by them specifically giving a majority mandate to their elected representatives to withdraw from the Union. It has though to be a majority of all the people of Scotland not just the ones who are registered to vote in present elections.

    However, as to the referendum, the SG doesn’t need Westminster’s permission to hold a referendum. What they would get from Westminster is the agreement that the result would be legally binding upon Westminster.

    The real way to end the union is for the SG to have a mandate to walk out of Westminster because Westminster has acted illegally and that is not hard to prove.

    Westminster was acting illegally almost since 1707 but it was not so easy to prove. It sure as hell is now.

    With the start of devolution and Westminster assuming to be the parliament of the country of England, but without anyone elected specifically as the members of the parliament of England, Westminster became the actual parliament of England but it still carried on calling itself the Parliament of the United Kingdom.

    That means that it is the de facto parliament of the country of England and now it also bars any other country’s MPs interfering in English Only matters.

    If effect it is now the country of England devolving English powers to the other three countries.

    So the setup is a Westminster parliament of the country of England the superior and the other three countries now English dominions.

    That means it is no longer a bipartite united kingdom and thus there is no legal United Kingdom as we now have a union of countries with England the master race and the rest of us as their underlings.

    So, as Scotland is the legally sovereign partner in the United Kingdom then the legally sovereign people of Scotland have the legal right to leave what is now a broken union.

    The snag is that to make it stick we need a majority of the legally sovereign people to mandate the MPs and the SG to take the action of leaving.

    The other option is that the EU accepts that as the member state is not a legally unified country but has entered into the EU treaty as a United Kingdom that has since changed to a quadratic union of countries then the United Kingdom that joined the EU is over and the EU can accept the Kingdom of England voted to leave and can leave while the Kingdom of Scotland voted to remain and can remain as the legacy member kingdom.

    Then Scotland can decide that as it is both a kingdom and a country it will be a member country and could even ditch the queen as not having done her job as protector of the people’s sovereignty and Scotland then becomes a republic and a member of the EU as a country.

  327. defo says:

    Prince charming looks a bit nonplussed about his fate up there!

    18 months on very thin gruel will send most yoonitics over the edge.
    Adam Ant is awfy wee.

  328. yesindyref2 says:

    OT – defence
    UK Defence Journal has some interesting articles, a bit biased against the SNP, Indy and even Scotland at times but I’m working on it. Meanwhile, some background on the proposed (virtual) shipbuilding strategy and therefore perhaps what’s happening on the Clyde, but (my opinion) because of the BAE TOBA running out in 2024, probably won’t happen until fairly shortly before then – just in time for the T31 to go ahead elsewhere even with a NO vote. Worth reading the comments, no saber-rattling in them in this month old article.

    https://ukdefencejournal.org.uk/what-is-the-virtual-shipbuilding-strategy/#comment-370001

  329. A Scot in Canada says:

    From a distance, it has been interesting, and I must say rather amusing, watching the UK establishment’s collective head exploding for the past two days.

    The First Minister’s announcement of a new referendum on Independence for a date some 18 to 24 months down the road appears to have completely blind sided all of them. Must be a bit of a novelty for them when someone actually acts on the strength of their convictions. It’s not as if Ms. Sturgeon hasn’t given notice of this for the past nine months.

    I would advise all of us who hope for a positive outcome to the referendum to chill for a few months. Concentrate on the council elections.

    Do not fall into the trap of engaging with all of the nonsense being spouted. Please remember, all of the main stream media in the “UK” are merely the propaganda arm of the vested interest establishment – Scot’s who favor an independent Scotland will never get a fair hearing from these folks. Ever.

    Let them scream at themselves until they are blue in the face.
    Watching their fury and scorn for those of us who would dare to seek self determination is the greatest advertisement we have for an independent Scotland. Don’t waste our time sending sacrificial Scot’s into these figurative lions dens. It is a zero sum game.

    Nicola is doing a bang up job of standing up for the Scot’s. I suggest we mount her bust on the lintel above the gate of Edinburgh Castle – between the statues of the Bruce and Wallace. She will wholly deserve that spot if she leads us to independence.

    The idea that we can only be a nation if some other collective decides we are is patently absurd. We either are a nation or we are not. Scot’s will have the opportunity to decide that for themselves in approximately two years.

    The choice in this case is a binary one – to pinch a favored phrase of Mrs. May.

    Scotland is a country or it is a region of England (United Kingdom is merely a convenient euphemism for the latter).

    Let this be your referendum question. Print it on your billboards and in your pamphlets. Declare it openly to every member of the voting public. It is the only question worth asking – for it will be a fact if we should choose to remain in the “UK”.

  330. Capella says:

    BBC front pages – UK papers appear in early hours but Scottish ones 8 or more hours later. Perhaps someone drives to BBC HQ with them.

    All over the place with Indyref polls. The Times asserts that Scots want to stay in the UK.
    The Telegraph says that the SNP has dropped plan to stay in EU.

    They’re picking the bones of two polls and spinning like crazy. Shows how to lie with statistics. Desperate stuff.

  331. Robert Louis says:

    RE: 38 degrees.

    As other regulars above have pointed out, people should have nothing to do with that site. It utterly betrayed indy supporters last time around.

  332. Macart says:

    Dear God!

    https://twitter.com/WingsScotland

    Which was later changed to:

    https://twitter.com/WingsScotland

    The appalling tragedy of Jo Cox has apparently taught the media nothing. The media are winding up the rhetoric and zoomers who read and ‘act’ upon such rhetoric.

    PLEASE, PLEASE, PLEASE DO NOT RESPOND IN KIND!

    This will get much worse before it ends. They are looking for hatred and violence and where none exists they are looking to manufacture it.

    GIVE THEM NOTHING. Where you meet rage or hatred from zoomers, give them a blank wall to look at. Meet that rage and hatred with quiet, peaceful determination. Remember what we face and the levels to which they will sink. The only way this ends is when we walk away from it and close the door on it ourselves.

    Be careful out there.

  333. Effijy says:

    Stoker,

    Do you think it would be useful for any Independence voter trying counter the BBC’s denial of blatant Unionist Bias, to say that 100,000 signatures proves otherwise?

    Would such a number help strengthen the argument of perhaps 2, 000 protesters heading down to propaganda Quay on Sunday?

    For me it’s Yes, and Yes, on top of my Yes, but do you have an issue with people making up their own mind, as I suggested?

    Stoker says:
    15 March, 2017 at 12:02 am
    To all newbies lurking:
    The post at 11:21pm by Effijy includes a link to a site named 38 Degrees, the link is a marketing con and “Effijy” well knows that. The Parliamentary Petitions committee does NOT entertain petitions from private commercial companies such as 38 Degrees.

  334. Thepnr says:

    See lots of discussion on this thread yesterday Re in or out of the EU. Good that we are discussing it.

    Did anyone give much thought to this idea of a “holding pen” for Scotland in the EU that was muted in recent months? What might that mean do you think?

    I thought about it and came to the conclusion that it meant that even if we had voted for Independence before Brexit, say in Autumn 2018 or Spring 2019.

    Then not before we concluded the terms of our exit from the UK and our distinct agreements with the EU as a member then we would be OUT. We would have to leave along with the rest of the UK until all the agreements had been ironed out.

    I doubt this would take any length of time at all with the EU but could take a while longer with the UK. Lets go with Alex Salmonds 18 months after a vote for Indepndence.

    Well if the vote coincided with the full English Brexit in Spring 2019 say then we would be going with them. Think of our Independence vote as an official separation then we still need to complete the divorce before we are free to wed again.

    This has to make sense, if the EU insist on WTO rules with all tariffs that entails for the UK on Brexit then they couldn’t possibly allow Scotland to import/export tariff free if the goods could then simply be shipped to rUK without tariffs.

    An iScotland will also have to make it’s own agreements with the EU that will be totally different to the current UK agreements. This is what these MEP’s and other refer to when they are saying “An Independent Scotland will need to re-apply”.

    It just means we have to sort out our own deal first with both UK and EU and is nothing to worry about. The “holding pen” is the cast iron guarantee that we will be accepted as a member after all the t’s are crossed and the i’s dotted.

    There will be no need for a vote by the EU parliament. That’s my take on it anyway.

    One last thing mentioned in this thread, I think our MP’s should immediately leave Westminster after an Independence victory. Leave the negotiations up to civil servants and other SG advisors.

  335. mike cassidy says:


    “Here is the question the people of Scotland will face in the next independence referendum: when England falls out of the boat like a block of concrete, do you want your foot tied to it?”

    http://archive.is/tCcZJ

  336. Ghillie says:

    Thank you Macart = )

    Wise words.

    Visited my mum and dad last night and was treated to an hour of BBC2, Sky, What the Papers say etc.

    I don’t know how they stand it. Mum and dad have been backing Independence since the 1940s! Stronger stomachs than me maybe.

    I felt phsically assaulted by the words of ignorance and sneers of the television presenters and their twist on all things Scottish.

    Why on earth would Scotland want to stay in a relationship like that?

    And I know, from past experience, I, and many of us will come face to face with words and actions that will be hard to tholl and that will hurt to the core.

    But hey, I’ve got you lot = )

    Peace and love everyone xxx

  337. manandboy says:

    The FAKE OPINION POLL has become No.10 Downing St’s weapon of choice for a quick fix against Independence success. Theresa May’s ‘go to’ paper, Murdoch’s The Times, carries a heavily skewed YouGov poll this morning saying that support for Independence in Scotland has fallen sharply. (16 and 17 yr olds excluded).
    Rupert and Theresa have an accord, struck in New York at a private/secret meeting on September29 2016. Murdoch is not a fan of the EU because they don’t listen to him in Brussels he says – unlike in Downing St.

    As the propaganda war against Independence by the British government escalates, we can expect a new poll every day, telling us that support for Independence is falling. It will be like the blitz – saturation bombing by Downing St over a lengthy period, designed to wear the Electorate in Scotland down, while encouraging anti-Scottish hostility in England, among Brexiteers in particular.

    This isn’t Politics. It’s a dirty war.

  338. One_Scot says:

    Macart, clearly there are sections of the right wing media and unionists online who are happy to spread inciteful language against Scotland and Nicola Sturgeon.

    It does have a sinister and disturbing feel to it.

    As far as I am aware, Alison Pearson is making out that she did not write the headline, which is even more worrying, as suggested threats like hers can be put out by the unionist media and then dismissed with the, ‘a big boy done it and ran away’ excuse.

    I am not sure where this will all end up, but Scotland really does need to get away from these people as soon as possible.

  339. Nana says:

    video here..

    https://twitter.com/chunkymark/status/841525407069425664

    Oh good grief, English plonk to the rescue
    Serve English wine to help oil wheels of Brexit, urges MP
    http://archive.is/UvsDU

    https://politicalscrapbook.net/2017/03/pound-falls-off-a-cliff-after-brexit-bill-passed/

    I sometimes find ranting like a fishwife can be quite effective
    http://archive.is/JDeDu

  340. Smallaxe says:

    This may be a double post, the first time I tried I was told that WoS had timed out.Strange!

    Nana: Good Morning,

    Thank you, for the links that you’re not supposed to post. You are supposed to be resting those Golden hands, I’m telling your doctor! So don’t think that you have got away with it.# Grassing you up!(Organically)

    Lovely morning here, where we are. Frankly 
    🙂

    Peace Always

  341. Nana says:

    Sorry for the indyref2.scot link, no idea how that happened.

    This article by Robert J Somynne from a few weeks ago is worth reading.
    http://robertsomynne.blogspot.co.uk/2017/02/secrets-new-state-short-on-scottish.html

  342. Macart says:

    @One_Scot

    I’m sure Ms Pearson would want to distance herself from such a heading, but regardless, she knows who and what she works for.

    What we’re seeing here and what we’ll continue to see across the board from the media will be nothing short of incitement to violence and hatred. You WILL see exactly the same rhetoric as marred the EU referendum and resulted in awful tragedy. Only this time it will be worse. It will be motivated by sheer self interest and desperation.

    Most folk who trustingly read papers or still pay heed to broadcast media are of the variety who merely repeat the bullshit they are fed. They store it where they do every other thing and rinse and repeat when the subject of the day is broached. Their resentment for Scottish Government and all things Scottish independence will be of the sofa pundit variety. All ill informed opinion and soundbite.

    There are others though, as we’ve seen only too recently. Those empowered and emboldened by Brexit who are responsible for the gawdawful rise in hate crime across the UK. They will take this as the starting flag on all things Scottish. (Not that they ever required much motivation there). These are the type most likely to act on the hatred they are fed by the media and their chain tuggers.

    It is imperative we do not react in kind and make any situation which may arise so much worse.

    This government, their media and those who react to their dog whistle are bad folk One_Scot. They are also arrogant, ignorant and desperate, and that makes them idiotically reckless.

  343. manandboy says:

    Were the Scottish Government to invite, one by one, representatives from all the British Colonies which have regained their independence, they would tell us that Scotland’s struggle to be Independent is not something new, nor is England’s response to it.

    So let us get on with it without being surprised or offended by the British government’s propaganda war. England is just being England being colonial. It’s in their DNA. It’s what they do. It’s why so many nations hate the English.

    Perfidious Albion hasn’t changed a bit, not one little bit.

    (Perfidious Albion England or Britain considered as treacherous in international affairs, in a rendering of the French phrase la perfide Albion, said to have been first used by the Marquis de Ximenès (1726–1817). Both terms are recorded in English from the mid 19th century. http://www.encyclopedia.com/humanities/)

    Also: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Perfidious_Albion

    Perfidious : Faithless.
    synonyms: treacherous, duplicitous, deceitful, disloyal, faithless, unfaithful, ("Tractor" - Ed)ous, treasonous, false, untrue, double-dealing, dishonest, two-faced, Janus-faced, untrustworthy;

  344. Smallaxe says:

    Nana:

    Here’s a link for you, if you press the map for your region it tells you how much of your councils’ pension fund is invested in fossil fuels.
    http://reinvest.scot/

    Peace Always

  345. Nana says:

    @Smallaxe

    Good morning. It’s not easy to follow orders. Hopefully by the weekend the frothing lunacy coming from the media will slow down some.

    Blimey it’s all so obvious they are in a blind panic.

    Dad’s army comes to mind, I picture Whitehall & No10 full of corporal Jones’s running around shouting don’t panic!

  346. Les Wilson says:

    On GMS this morning we have Prof Curtis, thoroughly enjoying his wee while in the limelight. Saying in a recent survey but prior to Nicola’s speech, that Independence is now the highest on record, but.

    He follows up with what I consider an attempt to muddy the waters and split any vote, his controversial comments quickly spreading over the Yoon media,gleefully taking up his negative points. Has the Prof been compromised by Westminster.

  347. Socrates MacSporran says:

    Thepnr

    Good point about the “holding pen” with Europe. I fear, after we vote to leave England, the current shite storm we are facing will be as of nothing.

    It will be: “How very dare these ungrateful Sweaties leave Mother England”; there will be suggestions the RAF’s Battle of Britain Flight Lancasters and that last remaining Vulcan be sent north to decimate Edinburgh to teach us a lesson.

    Just as the 27 will be going out of their way to ensure a hard Brexit from Europe – we can expect the full weight of England’s ability to punish lesser beings being turned on us during the separation talks.

    x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x

    One Scot

    I would, indeed, be amazed had Allison Pearson written that headline. Writers write the main body of any piece, sub-editors then write the headlines. Very few writers ever have the chance to write their own headlines. But, I would have thought any self-respecting writer would have the chance to say: “No, I am not happy with that heading on my piece”.

  348. DerekM says:

    @ Thepnr

    Have you noticed its gone from veto to in a queue to have to apply lol

    Of course we will have to apply its one of those parliamentary things,do these people not know how a parliament works.

    You sign some legal stuff shake hands pass it as legislation through parliament so the bureaucrats can get on with it and we all go for a drink and talk about Nigel being a fud.

  349. Socrates MacSporran says:

    Les Wilson

    Professor Curtice is an academic. He has generally shown himself to be even-handed in his judgements. He sees both sides of the argument, and weighs up his data, putting in caveats where required.

    The Yoon media is on a sort of Charge of the Light Brigade, straight at the Independence movement guns; or, to quote Burns: “Diel tak the hindmost, on they race”.

    They don’t have to be, indeed, in the case of Independence, could never be even-handed or considerate. They will seize on any morsel they can find which looks bad for Independence and run with it. Balance – Aye Right!

  350. manandboy says:

    Theresa May is like a teacher with a superiority complex in a private school who has just had one of the girl pupils talk back to her with a note of defiance. The teacher would like to throw the book at the girl, but is very aware that the girls father is a wealthy benefactor of the School.

    Ultimately, Theresa May cannot risk the wealth that flows from Scotland to Westminster. In this current situation, she will have to get her instinct to punish Nicola under control. That may well take a day or two. After that we can expect a reaction, sooner or later. It should be interesting after yesterday, when Nicola stole May’s thunder big time.

  351. starlaw says:

    Sure I remember during Indy 1 someone explaining how Prof Curtis draws wages from three sources during these campaigns. So worth his while to keep his employers sweet.

  352. Golfnut says:

    @ Macart

    It is also worth pointing out, that they would be held to account by a legal system in an Independent Scotland that would no longer tolerate interference from Westminster. There is no statute of limitations on incitement.

  353. Ed t head says:

    Looking at what prof Curtis is saying about a split vote it’s only one split that matters the stay in the uk or leave, as making the Indy vote about Scotland’s future in Europe will make independence harder. A independent country can hold a vote in the future but staying in the uk Scotland is doomed to follow WM. I think that all the other arguments can be only be sorted after independence as WM operates a divide and rule, in fighting is what they want so don’t let them divide the yes vote all energy should be to get a strong yes vote.

  354. Nana says:

    @Sarah 8.53pm

    Sorry for late reply, I have passed your suggestion on.

  355. One_Scot says:

    ‘Has the Prof been compromised by Westminster.’

    Curtis has always been in the unionists pocket. I remember a few years back he was put up by the BBC to attack Alex Salmond live on air, but Alex put him in his place.

  356. Capella says:

    Some of the Press comment today has gone way beyond partisan spin. Some of what’s on twitter is incitement to violence. Or raging in-your-face fascism to be more precise. What a sad state British Nationalism is getting itself into.

    Here’s one bright young lady’s definition. Any echoes in today’s UK?
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=muO0lIYlSL4

  357. manandboy says:

    Georges Monbiot in:- http://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2017/mar/15/theresa-may-dragging-uk-under-scotland-must-cut-rope

    “Britain is politically dead from the neck down. Leaving the union may be risky, but staying is worse”

  358. Ken500 says:

    The Polls are used to influence the vote. During the Purdah period public polls should be banned. So people can make their own choice in peace. ‘Better Together’ politicians were using public money to line the pockets. Giving public money to their associate’s Polling company.

    The Tories broke electoral Law in 31 constituencies. Farague has been funding a Political Party with public money for years. The Tories could not make a bigger mess.

    Nicola calls May out. May is going on a tour to try and win support. Some hope. Everything May says sounds ridiculous. It’s laughable.

    A voter in the Borders says, ‘no prescription charges’, will be lost if Scotland is Independent? It is the SNP Gov that introduced them. Unionists would re introduce them. What planet are some folk on?

  359. Mike says:

    The media are trying to influence Teresa Mays reply to Nicola Sturgeon by reporting she has already decided to defy Nicola.
    The media are promoting their own personal desires as news.
    That’s just one single level of their utter corruption.

    I’m not sure exactly when the UK media as a whole stopped pretending impartiality when it comes to any agenda to do with the UK State but its been a while since I saw any attempts at trying to hide partial reporting.

  360. Mike says:

    If yer worried about the polling take comfort in the fact that they got the results of the 2010 2015 GE wrong as well as the 2007 2011 and 2016 Scottish elections not to mention Indyref 1 and the EU referendum.

    Curtis gained his reputation for polling accuracy from exit polling. No pre event polling.

    You can never know until the day actually comes and folk actually vote.

  361. Nana says:

    It seems Andrew Wilson is unable to contact the writer [Kevin Schofield] of the article in politicshome in order to correct what is written as it is ‘wrong’

    Andrew says he is sorry

    Link to the article here…
    https://twitter.com/AndrewWilson/status/841783373836226560

  362. Polscot says:

    Mike Cassidy has already posted an archive link to the Monbiot piece, saves going directly to the Gruniad site.

    http://archive.is/tCcZJ

    I started reading it but got confused at the start where Monbiot states that Scotland “has failed to wean itself off North Sea oil” What does that even mean? When I was living in Scotland, I didn’t even know where the petrol came from that I was putting in my tank or that I had an option to choose North Sea oil (not sure which part of the North Sea – Norwegian sector, German Sector, Scottish sector or UK sector) or Middle East oil, or oil from any other source?

  363. Ken500 says:

    David Davis making a fool of himself in front of a UK Brexit committee.

  364. Ken500 says:

    The Polls -Curtice always got it wrong. To influence the vote? There was an inquiry about the poor analysis. They broke the regulations and nothing in done. The piper pays the tune.

    Rev Stu got it right by better analysis of the data.

  365. mike cassidy says:

    manandboy 9.12

    archived 7.48

  366. galamcennalath says:

    Don’t know about anyone else but I’m feeling a bit overwhelmed by the wild reaction from every Yoon quarter.

    Ok, they are upset, but why are they surprised? I just don’t get the surprise, which seems genuine.

    The way the won IndyRef1 kept the cause alive. Cameron’s immediate antics and Smith meant Indy hadn’t been set aside. Manifesto commitments explicitly put ScotRef as a consequence of Brexit. May et al have ignored Scotland.

    As I say, what is there to be surprised about?

    Actions lead to consequences. Real world physics.

  367. jfngw says:

    I see the Telegraph Journalist Pearson, declared bankrupt for not paying HMRC tax bill, is now threatening to sue people claiming the headline was not written by her. The headline has her name under it and I’m sure she could have objected and had it changed. If you accept a headline that is attributed to you then you are complicit surely.

  368. Reluctant Nationalist says:

    @ Ken500: “The polls are used to influence the vote.”

    Bingo.

  369. manandboy says:

    Theresa May is riding a bicycle with handlebars at both ends, because she wants to be able to go in the opposite direction at the same time.

    That’s just stupid. Correct, but true nevertheless. The reason is because Theresa May is saying two totally contradictory things about the UK leaving the EU and about Scotland leaving the Union. One is good, the other is bad. Yet they are both the same.

    All the reasons in favour of the UK leaving the EU, apply equally to Scotland leaving the UK . But Mrs May says they are completely different.

    This is only possible when you have near total control of the BBC and the Press, so you can say one thing in England, but the opposite in Scotland.

    So how do we explain Theresa May’s contradiction. Simple. She changes the rules to suit herself. Which basically tells us all we need to know. If England was in Scotland’s shoes, she would be using the ‘get out is good rule’. But because what is good for Scotland is bad for England in the real world, then she changes the rules and says that Scotland leaving the Union is bad.

    Applied to a married couple, Theresa May is saying that a woman (Scotland) choosing to leave an abusive marriage (UK) is bad. But when the woman is Theresa May (UK leaving EU), then it’s good.

  370. jfngw says:

    Just to add, I really hope Pearson the ex TV critic, a sort of pound shop Clive James, does sue someone. The thought of a Telegraph journalist in a court having to produce the headline demanding the death of the Scottish First Minister and claiming it was nothing to do with her, it will be superb for the Yes side.

  371. Nana says:

    Actor Brian Cox says Sturgeon had no choice but to call for a 2nd indy referendum after the “dog’s dinner” of Brexit

    video here…
    https://twitter.com/ScotIndyDebate/status/841768319774539776

    Re the Dutch elections

    http://tommyballgovan.blogspot.co.uk/2017/03/nedelex.html

    Nicola Sturgeon will not face a united ‘Better Together’ campaign
    http://archive.is/54sV9

    Brexit: David Davis admits government has done no economic assessment for if UK crashes out of EU with no deal
    http://archive.is/mTikj

  372. Lenny Hartley says:

    Thepnr re holding pen, I am probably wrong here but if we are members of EFTA and Customs union can’t we set up our own deal with England which is out of the EU and not a member of EFTA and the customs union? Anybody know?

  373. caz-m says:

    What about Scotland becoming a member of EFTA first.

    This would appeal to those who have reservations about the EU.

    Nicola and Alex seem to be going out of their way to stress that we need to stay a MEMBER of the Single Market. That could be done thru EFTA.

    IMO in would help secure a YES vote in the Referendum.

    Full EU membership could be looked at again AFTER we become an Independent Nation.

    Just a thought.

  374. caz-m says:

    My prediction is that England will still be using WTO tariff rules in ten years time.

    The EU are going to make England suffer.

  375. Mike says:

    Listening to David Davis I get the impression that rather than trying to go for “The best deal for Britain” this UK Government will accept any outcome and may very well end negotiations at any point just for the hell of it.
    What nobody seems to be considering is the massive white elephant in the room. The untangling of EU UK joint legislation which is going to take years.
    The UK will be unable to function as a fully Independent body free of the EU until this legislation is untangled.
    So its perfectly feasible to believe we will have a situation where the UK has walked away from the negotiations but is still obligated by law to keep open borders and to trade under EU regulations.

    Sounds suspiciously like UDI to me.

  376. geeo says:

    Where were all these polls a week or 2 ago ?

    Apparently there was a poll done where only 56 people out of 650 asked, said they would vote YES this time, even if it cost them their job…

    Bored already with these clearly nonsense polls.

  377. Chick McGregor says:

    @Capella

    Very intelligent young lady.

  378. geeo says:

    @caz-m.

    With a 62% remain vote, i see no justification for being seen to bend over backwards for the 38%.

    We have a strong mandate to have a referendum based on being dragged out the EU against our will.

    Out the EU, not dragged out the single market.

    Alienating those previous No voters from 2014 who will vote Yes to retain EU status, just to placate Yes voters who do not like the EU seems counter productive to me.

  379. Nana says:

    Are you reading Kevin??

    More on why GERS might properly be called crap data

    http://www.taxresearch.org.uk/Blog/2017/03/15/more-on-why-gers-might-properly-be-called-crap-data/

  380. Dr Jim says:

    Scotland is a more than 150 billion pound economy,
    on Independence even if you accept the nonsensical GERS massaged UK figures, because of our share of UK assets which will be owed by the UK Scotland will be an incredibly attractive country for anybody to want to start an enterprise in and no matter what garbage the opposers of Scotland would have anyone believe Scotland will experience an inflow of business unprecedented

    Norn Ireland looks like being in the mood to follow Scotlands example, if that happens our wee corner of the world will become a giant positively dwarfing the rUK in relative growth, and what’s more

    The UK knows it

  381. Dorothy Devine says:

    It seems the Pearson person likes to threaten Ms Sturgeon from a position of ignorance ,it has to be said.

    I do hope that the police have been informed and the ‘journalist’ and those commenting are about to be lifted – depression sufferer or not Ms Pearson , that kind of incitement is against the law of the land.

    Ms Hopkins had her fingers and bank balance burned , I do hope you and others like you suffer the same fate.

    Macart , I really find it hard to be polite about folk who spend their time lying , smearing and ‘it wiznae me-ing’ when found out.I include the BBBC in that.

  382. caz-m says:

    geeo 10.37am

    I agree with you that we should stay in the EU.

    I was highlighting EFTA as an easier way to remain in the Single Market and also have border free access to the English market.

    It’s a bit of a catch twenty two for Nicola.

    She is trying to appeal to as many voters as possible.

  383. ronnie anderson says:

    mobile.twitter.com/Sean…/status/841703745532633088

    The STV executives will ignore what the STV Weatherman says. Drooned in their ain piles o pish.

  384. Robert J. Sutherland says:

    galamcennalath @ 09:41,

    I believe what’s happening now is a deliberate Unionist attempt to incite trouble in order to back up their “divisive” and “not wanted” rhetoric, fuelled by their anger at being outmanoevred by Nicola.

    They are extremely unsure if they can win ScotRef, so right now the plan is to try to scare a sufficient number of unsuspecting innocents into believing that it will all get very unpleasant and violent, so instead we should all back down “for the common good” and not let this “nasty, nasty thing” happen at all.

    No “constructive engagement” and “object lesson in involved democracy” wanted by the enemies of independence.

    It’s basically old-school Mafia-style intimidation. The Unionists are not merely in denial about a referendum, they are actively striving, by applying pressure on the general public, to prevent this referendum going ahead.

  385. Lenny Hartley says:

    Geo re full EU v Efta, think of EFTA as the holding pen, as Mike says above it may take what’s left of the UK years to get out of the EU, this could complicate Scotland joining as if England were still part of the EU they could veto Scotland joining. Then there is access to the rest of the UK market , if Efta and currency union rules allow I think that a separate deal with England would be beneficial to us (and them)

    Anyway I lot cleverer people than me are looking at all the options , I trust the Scots Government to do the best for Scotland.

  386. Thepnr says:

    @Lenny Hartley

    Yes I believe we can, although a member of the single market we can do our own deals with countries not in the EU.

    The reason I’m saying “I believe we can” rather than I’m certain we can is because I haven’t gone to bed yet after working nightshift and can’t be arsed looking it up again LOL.

    Maybe I can give more info tomorrow 🙂

  387. DerekM says:

    Let`s wait and see what the EU thinks we should do so we can get an idea of what they would like.

    Until mayhem signs A50 they can only drop small hints.

  388. James Westland says:

    Robert J Sutherland re inciting trouble – yes highly likely I would say – they have spent most of their ammo during IndyRef 1 and they know that we are starting from a strong position.

    One of the things that would not surprise me in the least would be to try to taint the SNP by association with Sinn Fein (Or more probably Sinn FeinIRA as the unionists usually refer to them)

    Wouldnt put it past them

  389. Robert J. Sutherland says:

    caz-m @ 10:58:

    She is trying to appeal to as many voters as possible.

    A laudable aim, no doubt. But as we have seen from the past mistakes of others, you can’t “focus-group” this thing, because you’re quickly revealed to be an empty phoney.

    You have to actually believe something is the right thing to do, and seek to persuade as many people as possible that, whatever they may have thought previously, your plan is the correct one. Then you will earn support, and people will follow.

    Currently this is clouded by uncertainty about how the EU27 will react, so to some extent Nicola is still having to hedge her bets, and be ready to deal with any likely eventuality. The EFTA thing is one such backstop, but no more than that, at least at present.

    It is lazy thinking to assume that by reducing your offer to the least common denominator you gain more support. In fact you could even lose what you already have. Some peel off out of disillusionment at the let-down, while others you were hoping to attract decide that you’re still not worth supporting.

    Appealing to anti-immigration racists like a vox-pop woman who appeared on TV the other day is utterly pointless so long as they believe that independence is secondary, conned by the usual BritNat divide-and-conquer. You need to wake them up, not pander to their prejudices.

    The sound military analogy is you never abandon the higher ground simply out of fear of the unknown, and before a fight. Why weaken yourself for nothing? In our case, the EU has real ecnonomic muscle, as the Mayhem Gang are about to discover, so if we are clever and can get it onside, we cannot be bullied or intimidated post-indy by a remnant UK.

    “One for all, all for one…”

  390. Lenny Hartley says:

    Thepnr, enjoy your kip, I’m on the ferry , ultimate destination Goodwood in Surrey, for a motorcycle race , hope they enjoy the WOS stickers on my bike, that’s if the yorkshire rider does nae spit the dummy 🙂

    Getting back to EFTA, that was my reading of the rules, however I thought that’s so simple why are we talking about joining The EU straight away. Join EFTA and the customs union, negotiate our own deal with England/Wales , I reckon prelim negotiations with the EFTA countries have taken place .
    Then win Indy ref 2 , on manifesto of first Indy Government say there will be a referendum on Joining the EU. Ticks all the boxes 🙂 no Spanish veto real or imaginary, no queue real or imaginary, no loss of Single UK marketplace real or imaginary . Fishermen will have nothing to complain off, it’s a win win.

  391. yesindyref2 says:

    @galamcennalath
    Keep calm and carry on – as Macart and others have said.

    In fact now is the best time of all to be completely polite, reasonable and – nice – as it really shows up the frothers for what they are, in the eyes of more reaonable unionists as well as those who are in-between. Personally I’m enjoying myself 🙂

  392. Robert J. Sutherland says:

    I want to get back to this important issue of framing that stewartb has highlighted.

    The Unionists may have been caught on the hop over the ScotRef announcement, but that’s one one thing they seem to be “getting” even before the start. “Division”, “not wanted”, and now I even see a headline from Mundell in one of today’s papers: “unfair”. WHAT??!! The damn nerve.

    That’s a trope that WE should be totally owning, not them. Who exactly is being kidnapped and taken over the Brexitcliff without consent? The Unionist self-harmers? Seriously?

    So why are we not?

    I saw Kirsty Blackman on Newsnight last night and she was all over the place. I couldn’t fathom whether she was still hoping for some kind of deal with the Mayhem Gang, that bunch of lovely folk, or going half-tilt for indy, or what. Her urbane Tory companion had all the necessary key phrases “reasonable to wait”, etc., etc and she had none whatever.

    It’s not her fault, though. There needs to be a conscious and coherent movement-wide focus on the crucial “framing” we need to promote. Stu has already shown the way in his 4 points above: “necessary now”, “right thing to do” (Nicola), “fairness” – our slogan, not theirs. We are the ones being railroaded into a future we didn’t want, dammit.

    Slogans and catchphrases are not of themselves enough, of course, but they are important. They are the hooks upon which intelligent and informed debate can hang.

    We need to shake off this passivity and get this “framing” thing sorted. Right now.

  393. ronnie anderson says:

    Teresa May playing Deflection Politics on NI contributions for self employed . White van man .backlash.

    Politics isn’t ah game Teresa.

  394. Macart says:

    @Dorothy Devine

    Yes it is both grim and vile. It’s also quite calculated and with a very deliberate purpose in mind.

    Which is why we meet it with a blank wall. Highlight it. Pass it on as the example of mindless idiocy that it is and carry on meeting hatred with reasoning.

  395. Thepnr says:

    @yesindyref2

    I agree but am unlikely to always abide by those suggestions. Depends on the circumstances 🙂 We need to show a bit of heart as well.

  396. Nana says:

    Hey up lookee here

    David Mundell identified as one of the 29 Tories facing Police investigations

    https://twitter.com/shufflepaw/status/841959895490547713

  397. stewartb says:

    On the various posts concerning future EU membership for an indy Scotland or not, a few things are worth recalling.

    1) Scotland’s decisive vote to Remain showed up starkly the democratic deficit we currently face, exacerbated by the May government’s refusal to compromise (at least so far – is there to be a panic ‘vow’ to come before the end of March?)

    2) The FM’s bottom- line position in terms of the proposed compromise has been for an arrangement for Scotland to stay (specifically) in the single market, not to stay the EU

    3) in the EU referendum, we all had only a binary choice – Remain or Leave the EU.

    4) In Indyref2, the objective is to win independence. So: (a) we must in my view avoid getting caught proposing an immediate post-indy course we can’t control – like currency union the last time, potentially EU membership this time?; and (b) for tactical reasons and of course also to enable the people of a newly independent Scotland to debate and then decide for themselves, I’m not averse to being a member of the single market via EFTA membership for starters.

    After all, once independent, the people of Scotland can decide to change again in future if a majority here decides this is in Scotland’s best interests. It is this basic proposition that makes the case for independence.

  398. ronnie anderson says:

    Lenny Hartley says:
    15 March, 2017 at 11:11 am
    Geo re full EU v Efta, think of EFTA as the holding pen, as Mike says above it may take what’s left of the UK years to get out of the EU, this could complicate Scotland joining as if England were still part of the EU they could veto Scotland joining. Then there is access to the rest of the UK market , if Efta and currency union rules allow I think that a separate deal with England would be beneficial to us (and them)

    Anyway I lot cleverer people than me are looking at all the options , I trust the Scots Government to do the best for Scotland.

    Once UK trigger Article 50 Westminster cant veto Scotland as they themselves will not be privy to any further integration meetings whilst negotiating to leave the EU.

  399. Thepnr says:

    @stewartb

    Totally agree 100% only Independence matters. To be honest I think the Scottish Government have a plan.

    They’re Scottish and not too stupid 🙂

  400. gus1940 says:

    Although the independence side rule the roost as far as the internet is concerned thanks to sites such as Wings, The Dug, Bateman, Ponsonby et al we are left with the fact that with the exception of The National and Sunday Herald the rest of the dead tree media together with The BBC and the rest of the broadcast media are solidly and mostly fanatically against Independence.

    As far as combating this situation is concerned all that exists outside the internet is the iScot Magazine which is an excellent publication although on the expensive side.

    Why can’t we have a weekly magazine using the template provided by Private Eye, produced cheaply on low quality paper with much of its content taken from Wings and the other pro indy web sites including Comments.

    We have one excellent cartoonist in Chris Cairns and surely we could dig up some others.

    Private Eye started on a shoestring and look at it now a great success fulfilling a vital function in exposing the ills and evils of our politicians, businessmen and the media. Unfortunately it is dead against Independence.

    I’m sure if such a publication was started it could attract plenty of subscribers plus casual retail purchasers.

  401. Nana says:

    @Macart

    I posted that link at 7.56am. It’s an excellent report by Prof Peers.

  402. Macart says:

    @Nana

    SNAP!

    Can’t do better than go to the experts Nana. 🙂

    There is enough in there to satisfy those who support either EFTA, EU or simply EEA. The beauty of Scotland’s position post indy is…

    … CHOICE.

    And that would be choice from a primary experience and position. INFORMED choice. OUR choice.

  403. Tinto Chiel says:

    George Monbiot’s article has its heart in the right place but even he can produce canards like this one:
    “Scotland’s economy is weak, not least because it has failed to wean itself off North Sea oil.”

    When did we ever get “weaned on” the stuff, George, and if our economy is weak, the Union doesn’t seem to be working terrible well for us, does it? Who controls all the big economic levers? And he’s one of the Good Guys!

    And am I imagining things or are Sinn Fein being described more and more on BBC radio as “nationalists”?

    Might just be my sensitive, paranoid antennae, of course.

  404. Thepnr says:

    @Macart

    Glad you put the link from Nana up again. I read it earlier it didn’t shape my opinion (frame I like).

    I’ve said before EU/EFTA/EEA or “nothing at all” doesn’t matter while we are governed by Westminster. For we can be absolutely certain that what we are being offered by them is “nothing at all.

    The question has to be be are we happy with no choice at all under Tory rule? Well as they strip benefits from the disabled and the young. Tax students and privatise the NHS I ask myself is this OK?

    Well of course it’s not. We won’t settle for “nothing at all”

    WE WANT IT ALL!

    YES and we will take it democratically. Something the Tories ignore.

  405. Macart says:

    And that is what we have to sell and sell hard Thepnr.

    Independence offers choice. The very thing political union and Westminster denies the Scottish electorate, the Scottish electorate can take for themselves. 🙂

    Whilst the EU issue is undeniably the material change which has triggered the galactostooshie we’re all currently mired in. We have the power to pull ourselves out of that awful mess, reassess and make a choice in our own best interests.

    All without the input of 590 odd folk in a crumbling pile who clearly don’t give a shit whether we exist or not.

  406. stewartb says:

    gus1940 @12.58pm

    On iScot Magazine, I’ve subscribed since its inception, initially in principle to support new pro-indy media, and I have enjoyed reading some/much of the content. I welcome its presence and wish it well.

    But I have always been a bit thoughtful about the business model and brand: it is an extremely attractive publication in terms of production values in the print version. This ‘gloss’ doesn’t attract me but it may(?) attract others, including advertisers. But at what cost?

    I’d rather focus on a brand based on relatively cheap/cheerful hard copy versions (yes, like Private Eye); challenging/informative/satirical content; and look to spend any savings on distribution and sales. There may be role here also to ‘aggregate’ and ‘amplify’ other good writing already around.

    But then what do I know, I’m not a publisher!

  407. yesindyref2 says:

    @Nana
    Thank, yup basically unchanged, so no precedent was set by the 2014 Referendum S30 and Edinburgh Agreement, but it’s the best way to go – for both sides. But if not, the SG can organise a consutlative referendum, subject to a possible court challenge.

  408. yesindyref2 says:

    @Thepnr
    Indeed. Here’s the provocative end of one of my replies to some pish, the rest of it purely on-topic for defence:

    “Arny Bases? Hello, Scottish Army?

    Your (uninformed I’m afraid) view of purely Scottish politics stuff I ignore, this isn’t the place for it.”

    It got a reaction 🙂

  409. Nana says:

    @yesindyref2

    Seems like it. It’s good to know where we stand.

  410. Thepnr says:

    @stewartb

    That sounds exactly like a Wings weekly or monthly. We can do that.

  411. yesindyref2 says:

    @Nana
    Used it already in the Herald, thanks, though it’s a quiet thread.

  412. Richard says:

    I agree points 1-3 are based on fact, but disagree on point 4. There is no evidence that holding the referendum before Brexit occurs would prevent Scotland from leaving the EU. Even if Scotland voted to leave the UK before the UK leaves the EU in March 2019 there would be a delay before Scotland could become an independent country (analogous to the 2 year period between Article 50 being triggered and the UK leaving). During this period, Scotland would remain part of the UK and thus will also leave the EU. Even if the EU fast track iScotland membership, it could not join (or inherit UK membership, if such a thing is possible) until it had left the UK.

  413. Rev. Stuart Campbell says:

    “Even if Scotland voted to leave the UK before the UK leaves the EU in March 2019 there would be a delay before Scotland could become an independent country (analogous to the 2 year period between Article 50 being triggered and the UK leaving). During this period, Scotland would remain part of the UK and thus will also leave the EU.”

    You don’t really get how the EU works.

  414. FIONA TOMANY says:

    listening to LBC every caller was anti independence and anti Scottish this happens all the time the calls must be being filtered to get that result

  415. Johnny says:

    “A POST-BREXIT REFERENDUM IS THE SAME AS A BLOCKED ONE”

    38% of Scottish voters wanted to leave the EU, and I’d bet money a good number of them also want indyref2. So this is debatable at best.

    I will be excstatic if we leave the UK after the UK has left the EU. Trading one borderline-oppressive entity for another even bigger one is not my idea of Scottish independence.



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