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Wings Over Scotland


Nationalism in reverse

Posted on February 16, 2016 by

We saw a very interesting article on the London School of Economics website today.

lseblog

It notes that in 2006, the year before the SNP came to power, 65% of Scots identified themselves as “Scottish not British” or “more Scottish than British”, but by 2014 – the year of the independence referendum – that number had fallen to just 49%.

It concludes, correctly, that just as we noted on Sunday, support for independence is fundamentally political in nature, not nationalist. But that only tells half the story.

Because at the same time as identification as Scottish has dropped, the percentage of Scottish people choosing what might reasonably be termed Unionist identities has risen dramatically – from 30% in 2006 up to 43%, an increase of almost half.

We were struck by the stat when we saw some tweets on the timeline of a particularly dim-witted “Rangers” fan calling himself “Churchill” this week.

davidjones

As any semi-regular Twitter user will already know, we could post a thousand similar examples without breaking sweat. But the point is that the independence referendum DID lead to a significant increase in nationalism – just not the kind the media would have you believe.

British nationalism was stoked up massively by the No campaign. While almost never openly sectarian, “Better Together” and the various other Unionist groups also never publicly condemned the aggressive, usually Loyalist likes of the BNP, UKIP, Orange Order et al who also campaigned for a No vote.

orangemorrice

Such groups, long starved of any sort of respectability, fed hungrily off the pro-UK propaganda that “Better Together” pumped out with the aid of an enthusiastic media, and the result was that as the Yes campaign moved independence support away from a small nationalist fringe and into the political mainstream, the Loyalist/Unionist side became entrenched, militant and emboldened, culminating in the triumphalist violence in George Square the day after the vote.

gsv1

gsv7

gsv48

gsv14

gs9

While skirting around that issue, the media has identified the offshoot of it – a strengthening of the Tory vote around an explicitly and pointedly Unionist message, which whether intentionally or not tacitly occupies the same space as the old 1950s sense of the term. (Detailed at fascinating depth in Iain Macwhirter’s splendid book “Road To Referendum”.)

It’s one of the great ironies that the No campaign actually brought about a substantial decrease in Scottish nationalism, yet by doing so it caused support for Scottish independence – finally freed from the fanatic fringe – to grow dramatically and build a political powerbase that swept away the Labour Party in Scotland and is now the dominant force and theme of Scottish politics.

Simultaneously, “Better Together” also gave the most toxic form of British nationalism a new lease of life, driving support for the Union out towards the margins and making it the province of the sort of groups few decent people want anything to do with.

mcternannationalism

Ethnic nationalism hasn’t gone away, it just switched sides. The political effects are only beginning to make themselves felt. Victories can rarely have been more Pyrrhic.

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  1. 16 02 16 13:43

    Nationalism in reverse | Speymouth

  2. 16 02 16 21:11

    Nationalism in reverse | Public Policy | Scoop...

232 to “Nationalism in reverse”

  1. mogabee says:

    If Brexit fails, there’ll be an awful lot of very angry BritNats.

    I’ll be staying inside if that happens….

  2. Pin says:

    Especially interesting since the trend appears to have started with devolution. Long before an SNP govt and the indyref

  3. r.esquierdo says:

    They can say what ever they want to say. The clock is ticking and it is only a matter of time until Scotland votes for self determination

  4. R-type Grunt says:

    I hear Blair McDougall plays his own flute in his spare time.

  5. muttley79 says:

    Very good article. I reckon there is one flaw though:

    It’s one of the great ironies that the No campaign actually brought about a substantial decrease in Scottish nationalism, yet by doing so it caused support for Scottish independence – finally freed from the fanatic fringe – to grow dramatically and build a political powerbase that swept away the Labour Party in Scotland and is now the dominant force and theme of Scottish politics.

    I would take issue with the description of support for independence being freed from a “fanatic fringe” from 2011 to the present. There have been many moderates in the SNP since its formation. You just need to mention Cunnighame Graham, John MacCormick etc. In the early days you could be a member of both the SNP and the Labour Party in Scotland. An example is Douglas Young. There has been a long term debate in the SNP over how best to achieve independence, and many advocated and supported a moderate form of Home Rule as the first step. I just do not recognise this “fanatic fringe” at all.

  6. I wonder if the claim about the reduction in the number of those describing themselves as Scottish has anything to do with the way documents are worded?

    If I remember correctly the last time I had a voter registration form to fill in, it had for nationality British, where as previously Scottish was also
    included as an option.

    Ii makes me wonder how wide spread this practise is on other official documentation?

    Because when I enlisted into the Guards my nationality was put down as Scot/Brit.

  7. Bob Mack says:

    Absolutely superb analysis Rev.

    What we are seeing now is no longer the struggle for political allegiance but one in which the future of Scotland will play itself out. The staunch Unionists like the Lodge will drop working class alliances in the former of Labour,to the more extreme vote for Tory who are positioning themselves in Scotland as defender of the Union.

    No matter how unpalatable Tory policy may be,it will be acceptable to the followers of these organisations as a price which must be paid to preserve the Union.

    How terribly sick and sad that this type of belief survives today.They are ill.

    So ,we are left with the scenario of political swap shop being played for a bigger game ,namely our country.

    Still, I console myself that I am not alone. It rather puts into perspective that as things have developed along these lines(,encouraged by the Tories playing on Loyalist fears, and ably backed by Labour who courted the Lodge at the referendum), that we are nearing an end game. .The Lodge and everyone associated with it are being played(,though willingly in most cases), as pawns in the bigger game. Fools.

  8. muttley79 says:

    Incidentally, have the likes of Torrance, Massie, Deerin, Cochrane and co ever even acknowledged the existence of British nationalism? I know John McTernan has said there is no such as British nationalism, but he has also said there is no fires anymore… 😀

  9. ClanDonald says:

    Totally agree about Better Together legitimising the far right british nationalists and allowing them to think that they have society’s backing to spout their bile in public but I’m not entirely convinced by the degree to which this has happened.

    The census of 2011 found that 62% of Scots identified as Scottish not British.

    “Data released from the 2011 census showed 62% described themselves as “Scottish only”, while 18% said they were “Scottish and British”.

    In total, 83% of the country’s population felt some Scottish identity”

    It’s true that the Great British nationalist union jack propaganda has been totally in our faces for the past few years, encouraged by the MSM and UK Govt, that can’t be denied, but tbh, I’d question the validity of the research that says unionist ID is as high as 43%. They wish.

  10. Peter A Bell says:

    There are two points to be made in response to this article. Firstly, the supposed decline in people identifying as Scottish may very well be a misleading artifact of them growing more relaxed about their national identity. Scottish identity has become more secure through things such as the reconvening of the Scottish parliament; through the creation of a real Scottish Government in 2007 (as opposed to an ‘Executive’); to the eclipsing of British political parties and the development of an explicitly Scottish political culture. Thus, there is less cause for any strident expression of Scottish identity. Unlike the English, we can take our national identity for granted.

    The second point I would make is in regard to the “toxic form of British nationalism” referred to in the article and the fact that it is precisely this deeply unpleasant manifestation of nationalism that the Scottish Tories are intending to harness in their quest to replace British Labour in Scotland as the main opposition party at Holyrood.

    Ruth Davidson is hardly shy about the fact that she aims to appeal to the fanatical British nationalist elements of British Labour in Scotland. Kezia’s Kiddies will respond in kind – because that is where they will be led by their intellect-crippling hatred of the SNP. Especially when this is allied to an intellect-crippling fear of even greater political irrelevance.

    We face the distinctly unappealing prospect of the British parties descending into a self-reinforcing downward spiral of increasingly demented nationalist rhetoric. They are not yet done with poisoning our politics.

  11. Macart says:

    Ayup, and there is no magical way they can erase that stain from record.

    So for indyref2 you can have a representative, modern and outward looking democracy, or you can have the union status quo and all the trappings and detritus that goes with it.

  12. Grouse Beater says:

    finally freed from the fanatic fringe

    Excellent piece of sabre rattling.

    The ‘fanatic fringe’ was a unionist slight, the costumed-claymore re-enactment groups about as fearful as English Morris dancers. The insult, of course, was meant to stick to Scotland’s intellectuals, poets and writers who kept the autonomy debate vigorous.

  13. Taranaich says:

    I fundamentally disagree with the notion that there’s a distinction between political independence and nationalism: as far as I’m concerned, you might as well say independence has nothing to do with independence.

    If you think that Scotland is a nation, and that nations should be sovereign, then you are a Scottish nationalist, just as much as Gandhi was an Indian nationalist, or any others who wanted democracy & autonomy for their nation. Nationalism, at it’s core, is neutral: it is what it is used for which makes it good or evil.

    (I also have issues with the study referred to in the link, but I’m on my phone & don’t have computer access ATM)

  14. Nation Libre says:

    Excellent analysis and it perfectly illustrates why after many years as a die hard Rangers fan, I could no longer call them my team. While I’m not suggesting every Rangers fan is in the above Unionist camp or behaves in that manner, it’s a significant minority and with an even bigger group who turn a blind eye to it

    Frankly, at my age and with at least average intelligence, I should have come to that conclusion much sooner, way before any of the above

    As you say, they are on the fringes now and I would be embarrassed to invite friends or family along to a Gers game and listen to the rubbish that comes from there

    If the fans or club don’t sort it out, then I hope the club eventually disappears. If others choose to try and change it from the terrasses that’s up to them, good luck

    I know that some might point out that the above is about BritNats but I think we all know who make up a sizeable majority of the pics above

  15. Grouse Beater says:

    Peter Bell the supposed decline in people identifying as Scottish may very well be a [result] of them growing more relaxed about their national identity.

    I think that’s true. One sensed a tendency even among intellectuals to supress their culture in favour of being British, belonging to the UK. They ‘generalised’ their background.

  16. Rev. Stuart Campbell says:

    “I would take issue with the description of support for independence being freed from a “fanatic fringe” from 2011 to the present.”

    I meant more in terms of external perception.

  17. galamcennalath says:

    An excellent article. I get so pissed of when hard core BritNats refer to us as ‘the nationalists’.

    The word nationalism comes with a lot of baggage. History has taught us that nastier manifestations usually come with right wing nationalism. For the most part that has always been the prevalent one within the UK. As the Rev points out in this article, the nationalism on the rise in Scotland is certainly of the right wing type, and true to form it’s nasty!

    It’s worth a wee read of what Wiki says about other forms, which generally get played down in the historical narrative. While Scots seeking greater self determination and democracy associate less with nationalism (as I do), it is still nationalism of the non-right form.

    https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Civic_nationalism

    https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Left-wing_nationalism

  18. defo says:

    R-type Grunt says:

    “I hear Blair McDougall plays his own flute in his spare time.”
    Apparently he’s in a little heard of jazzer combo, ‘Dirty Tricks’, with Flipper on the fiddle, Kez on triangle, and Mc Ternan spinning the discs.

    If “plays his own flute” is to be taken euphemistically, I doubt it R-type. Not with a gut like that !

  19. kevvy Gee says:

    Torrance, Massie, Deerin, Cochrane.

    The ‘not a unionist in control’ Greivence Monkeys.

    Never satisfied, never credit, never acknowledge acheivement.

    All are “Press Greivence Monkeys” or PGM’s

  20. Onwards says:

    The whole EU issue shows that support for independence is more about INTERnationalism. Scotland becoming a normal and equal member of the family of nations.

    Ironically, many of the ‘better together’ unionist types have revealed themselves to be small minded UK nationalists and xenophobes.

  21. ScottishPsyche says:

    It is bizarre the denial of yoons that this exists. For me the ‘in yer face’ British nationalism has always been around. I remember growing up in the West of Scotland in the 70s with overtly Britnat, Orange order, yoon flag waiving Rangers fans who voted Tory being an established entity. Totally at odds with their economic status or ‘class’, identity as British was the most important thing.

    Scottish nationalism was seen as weird and for tweedy oddballs. It is perhaps why some saw Irish nationalism as a legitimate alternative, a tribe to belong to. The divide between yoons and the rest of us has always been there. Only now do some of us have somewhere we feel comfortable, a civic, moderate voice of economic and political independence.

    I can honestly say I have never waved a flag of any description in my life.

  22. crisiscult says:

    @ClanDonald

    I’d agree. I’ve not had time to investigate that research quoted by rev but I think if you’re pushed to provide a British element to identity, the numbers are higher whereas in the Census you could voluntarily choose. Not sure if that’s the case here but considering the 18% + 8% of British and Scottish + British in the census, the 40+ percentage seems high.

  23. Rev. Stuart Campbell says:

    “The second point I would make is in regard to the “toxic form of British nationalism” referred to in the article and the fact that it is precisely this deeply unpleasant manifestation of nationalism that the Scottish Tories are intending to harness in their quest to replace British Labour in Scotland as the main opposition party at Holyrood.”

    Um, yes. Isn’t that what the article says?

  24. heedtracker says:

    It’s not toxic. It cant be. Progressive liberal England loves Brits like the OO.

    So from this rancid The Graun kind of UKOK headline summer 2014

    “The Scottish independence campaign needs the Orange gatecrashers
    Kevin McKenna
    The decision of the Grand Orange Lodge to enter the referendum debate is a welcome breath of fresh air”

    to OO PR stuff like this form Rupert Carrell and chum. The Guardian’s gone Britnat mad in their Scotland region but even so, nothing threatening about it, is there

    http://www.theguardian.com/politics/2014/sep/13/orange-order-march-edinburgh-scottish-independence-vote

  25. Proud Cybernat says:

    Those pics – sabernats one and all.

    When are the wounded to be bayonetted, Mr Davidson?

  26. Rev. Stuart Campbell says:

    “Nationalism, at it’s core, is neutral: it is what it is used for which makes it good or evil.”

    Again, though, you can SAY that till you’re blue in the face, but nobody will listen. The PERCEPTION, as galamcennalath notes, is that “nationalist” means, essentially, ethno-fascist.

  27. Taranaich says:

    Just remembered: the 2011 census found 62% felt “Scottish only,” with “Scottish & British” at 18% and “British only” at 8%:

    http://www.scotlandscensus.gov.uk/news/census-2011-detailed-characteristics-ethnicity-identity-language-and-religion-scotland-–

  28. Doug Daniel says:

    The media would love to get people back to thinking independence is the sole preserve of beardy-weirdies*, hence the strange over-promotion of anything the t-shirts-tucked-into-jeans Scottish Resistance do. They know that caricature was the strongest weapon they had against independence, but it’s out of the box now.

    The more people realise independence is normal and it’s actually the UK that is the outlier in global terms, the closer it gets. It’s just a waiting game now.

    *(I am currently in a beard phase, so I can say that.)

  29. Cuilean says:

    As a YES voter, I was so alienated from Scottish Rugby Union I lost all interest in them. I went to rugby international matches, even away games. Now I can’t even watch them on tv.

    I was never a fan of Rangers but would buy for family/friends.Ill now never buy either’s merchandise.

    Both teams chose to link themselves with ‘NO’ so they live with the consequences. Perhaps rugby’s mediocrity reflects their lack of ambition or confidence in their country.

    As for Rangers. I now look askance at anyone wearing their colours, despite knowing a significant number voted YES. Those George Sq images just won’t go away.

    So I am less nationalistic but more politically committed than before the Indy Ref.

    Spot on article Rev. Very perceptive, as always.

    These attack dogs will be unleashed again when IndyRef 2 begins.

  30. muttley79 says:

    @Rev Stu

    I meant more in terms of external perception.

    Fair enough.

    @Scottish Psyche

    I can honestly say I have never waived a flag of any description in my life.

    I support independence because I would like to see Scotland change for the better. There is only so much you can do with the powers we currently have at Holyrood. I like the St Andrews saltire, but I am not really a flag waver either.

  31. Taranaich says:

    Your call, Rev: I’m just too much of a pedant. I’m the guy who corrects people when they call a pteranodon a dinosaur, or the monster Frankenstein. YES I KNOW WHAT YOU MEANT, I DON’T CARE IF EVERYONE KNOWS WHAT YOU MEANT ARGLE BARGLE

  32. galamcennalath says:

    Onwards says:

    “many of the ‘better together’ unionist types have revealed themselves to be small minded UK nationalists and xenophobes.”

    Yes. Those who opposed Indy most are almost certainly also anti EU. Daft Scots who haven’t worked out that they are actually Little Englanders!

    I see it as part of the same idea that Unionists only exist in Scotland and Ulster. In London there are no Unionists, only Imperialists, if anything they are English Nationalists. So there is much irony in the concept of Scots being BritNats.

    it also needs to be accepted that many Scots are negative about the EU for non nationalist and non xenophobic reasons. There are pro Indy people who are anti EU. I am pro EU, but I can understand the arguments of those who look to Norway as an extremely successful country outside of the EU.

  33. Jim McElhill says:

    Very to the point article.

    I watched and studied opinion polls from the 1980’s over several decades, photocopied them, circulated them, to the point that local library staff wanted a copy of them.

    Support for self-determination was consistently around 33-35%. At one time the UK media decided to run with a renegade poll showing 29% for Scots self determination. The lowest recorded during that time.

    It was a great success to achieve 45% in the independence referendum. It flew in the face of what we were always being told.

    Nationalism isn’t good whether British, French, German, Russian or Spanish etc. Self-determination is another matter.

    Around 10% of the population of Scotland now come from south of the border. A substantial figure also come from other parts of Europe and the rest of the world. Of course, although many of them campaign for self-determination they consider themselves to be of their own nationality in the main. Brits on the Costas’ don’t consider themselves to be Spanish or Catalan!

    Roll on the next independence referendum when the time is right.

  34. Grouse Beater says:

    “you can SAY that till you’re blue in the face”

    That’s not a bad complexion, when you think about it.

  35. mike cassidy says:

    “Meet The Spanners”(18 cert.)

    Released in Scotland as

    “How I Learned To Stop Worrying And Love Ruth Davidson”

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pmGjiokfQ2A

  36. Dan Huil says:

    @Taranaich 1:43pm

    Aye, I was a wee bit confused by “Scottish identity decreasing” in the LSE story. It would be strange if Scottish identity was decreasing whilst support for Scottish independence was increasing.

  37. bobajock says:

    “I meant more in terms of external perception.” on the SNP independence movement.

    My brother and I have wondered over this for a considerable time. Half Scot/ Half Cockney, Half DOB/Half Tim .. we lived a strange central Scotland life – looking in and wondering.

    External perception is still ‘fanatic’ – just post a message on the Torygraph site and watch. Its actually the internal perception that changed a lot, as you note – now almost reversed. What loon could possibly be a BritNat (see images above)

  38. Onwards says:

    With regards to an apparently increasing ‘Scottish plus British’ identity, I think there is also an attempt to reclaim a more benign type of ‘Britishness’ as a cultural or geographical identity within Scotland.

    Most people now understand that Scots can still have a partial British identity after independence if they want to. We don’t have to be politically ruled from London to be retain that.

    Perhaps also influenced by a decade of UK flags plastered all over supermarket produce as a geographical/quality control selling point, compared to products that have been shipped half way round the world.

    Many would vote for Scottish independence, but have no problem in retaining a part-British identity. Obviously a better type of ‘Britishness’ than the knuckle draggers in the video above.

    Independence will bring about a better Scotland and a much improved Britain – with a new relationship of political equals.

    A world away from the division and superiority/dependency culture that the current unequal union breeds.

  39. Dave MacIntyre says:

    Personally, I always put Scottish on forms if it’s a paper version but online it’s becoming increasingly difficult to identify as Scottish and perhaps that is why the high figure for people identifying as British.

    Nothing wrong with that, but for those like me that don’t identify as British it’s an increasing problem, especially when travelling abroad.

    The new driving licences even identify us with the union flag in the top corner.

    This is of course part of the long term strategy of the British government to turn us into good north Britons.

  40. Scottishpsyche says:

    @Muttley79

    I agree, my feeling is that identity will evolve through independence. We can have a truly representative government for us and our future generations.

    These are the things I feel emotional about, not flags or anthems, not yet anyway.

  41. Ken500 says:

    How many people register as English or British in the rest of the UK? For comparison.

    Many addresses are only given as town and post code in the rest of the UK. Only a majority in Scotland will end up being registered as British.

    It’s nothing to do with Nationalism. It’s a question of being cheated and lied to by a cabel of crooks at Westminster. Standing up for your rights is ‘nationalism’? A fine excuse by corrupt pig face suckers.

  42. Thepnr says:

    Because at the same time as identification as Scottish has dropped, the percentage of Scottish people choosing what might reasonably be termed Unionist identities has risen dramatically – from 30% in 2006 up to 43%, an increase of almost half.

    The largest group who choose to describe themselves as both “Scottish and British” is the main reason for the 30% and 43% figures. It may also be reasonably argued that 50% of this group may “reasonably be termed” Nationalist.

    There is no way to know though what the true split within this group may be. One explanation for the growth in numbers in this group alongside a similar reduction in those describing themselves as “Scottish not British” is that as of this moment legally at least we are both Scottish and British.

    There is also the argument that even after Independence, geographically at least we will remain so.

    One thing does stick out for me, only 11% feel British only, 32% are evenly split and a massive 49% feel more Scottish.

  43. heedtracker says:

    Tweetster David Jones up there probably watched C4 teatime news last night who thought it was relevant to show a dreary old git Mark E Smith, grinch much the same, as in theyre all young men, so why don’t immigrants go back to their own country and fight, like what my dad did in WW2, my day could have run off to Ireland but him and his generation stayed in the UK and fought the Nazis.

    Actually google it and here he is. Normalising toryboy world UKOK or just same old UKOK crapola.

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pgaRehO-oiY

  44. Ken500 says:

    Some football fans have been brainwashed since the day they were born. The terraces are empty.

    The West has been invading and abusing the Middle East for the last 100 years. Denying people the vote, taking their resources and supporting absolute and total despot monarchies.

    MSM shows the results of Russian bombing but never shows the effects of US/UK/France bombing.

  45. Angry Weegie says:

    Excellent article though I would slightly disagree on a couple of points.

    British ethnic nationalism has always been there, but the Britnats were so confident of their superiority, they didn’t feel the need to shout about it. What the referendum did was dent that confidence, made them fearful of the outcome if they didn’t tell the stupid Scots how much better they were and that created the opportunity for the Britnat loonies to get involved. The Britnat “too wee, too poor, too stupid” message, if not openly sectarian, certainly came pretty close.

  46. Robert Peffers says:

    There is, of course, the distinct probability the LSE simply made the mistake, so common to all Establishment organisations, in that they confused the terms, “Britain” and, “United Kingdom”, with some even going as far as also confusing the term, “England”, with both of the former terms.

    I’ve been a Scottish nationalist campaigning for an independent Scotland from long before I left school in 1952. However, if asked by a survey if I was British I would, in all honesty, have to reply, “Yes I am”. If asked if I felt more Scottish than British, then again, in honesty, I would have to reply, “equally both”.

    There is no such thing as a nation named, “Britain”. The term, “Britain”, is geographic and refers to the British archipelago. Which archipelago is composed of several nations and not all of them, can be even loosely described as countries, but each one is factually British.

    I must assume the LSE were asking the wrong questions and thus were getting correct answers to the wrong questions. The answers they got were perhaps not exactly what they were attempting to investigate.

    Quite simple there is no such thing as either a nation, state or country called either Great Britain or just Britain and both those commonly misused terms refer to a different entities.

    “The United Kingdom of Great Britain & Northern Ireland”, (read the words), is a, “Kingdom”. That’s what the term is and that’s what the term means. It is neither a country nor a state. In fact the term is rather misleading as it includes, as a Kingdom, (Royal Realm), three Crown Protectorates that are not included in, “Her Majesty’s Government of the United Kingdom of Great Britain & Northern Ireland”, which is not a country or nation but is a state. It may often be loosely described as a nation but really it is not.

    What I am is a British Scot who is rather neutral to being a member of her Majesty’s Royal Realm but a very reluctant citizen of, “Her Majesty’s Government of the United Kingdom of Great Britain & Northern Ireland”.

    The moral of all that is if the LSE were to ask the right questions they would stand a far better chance of getting the correct answers to what they set out to investigate.

  47. galamcennalath says:

    An analogy perhaps? Saying you are a nationalist can be a bit like saying you are a witch. Then, as folks reach for the kindling and matches you have to proclaim, “not THAT type of witch, I’m one of the wholesome ones wishing only goodness and light” 🙂

  48. marga says:

    If comparison helps, in Catalonia many of the new independentists have never been and will never be nationalists, or even necessarily Catalanist, and actually start complaints about incidents with: “I’ve never been a nationalist, but” …

    Civic leaders emphasise the phrase: “Catalunya, un país normal”.

  49. Pietro_McM says:

    Good article. Definitely one of the toxic side effects of the Bitterthegither campaign that’s had me most worried.

  50. Bob Mack says:

    I think to know real nationalism of this type you have to have lived with it and amongst it. I have had that dubious honour coming from a mixed religious background. My own father was ejected from his family home (O/O, )for marrying a Catholic.It was 10 years before he met his mother and father again.

    The Psychology of the O/O, is very powerful,and we have to recognise they are a focal point for Unionists. I have many friends from youth who used to say “we are the people” when describing their allegiance to primarily Rangers,but to the Protestant religion as well.

    This phrase is from the teachings of the Lodge,who believe they are God’s chosen missing tribe of Levi .They view themselves as distinct and special. This filters and percolate down through the social chain through friendships,family ,work etc. and becomes a common daily part of thinking

    Nationally to them is non negotiable.They are British.The Queen is the monarch They are special. That is all that matters.

    May I also say that they are not alone.There are people I know born and raised in Scotland who have Tricolour flags at home, and used to sing rebel songs at Park head. It is insidious, and it is wrong.

    Scotland must learn to come to terms with our inherited past,and have natural justice for all. We are not special.We are just Scottish , and happen to share an island with a Nation who captured us financially against the wishes of the majority at that time.

  51. Grouse Beater says:

    The Brit Nationalists Fight Back!

    Used Internet to update my driving licence. It arrived with the Union Jack on it for the first time.

  52. Ian Brotherhood says:

    Some nice neologising going on in this thread…

    How’s this for the name of a band? –

    ‘Tweedy Oddballs & The Beardy Weirdies’

    🙂

  53. kininvie says:

    O/T (sort of). In the whole swirl of the Union/Independence/Tory/Labour/Brexit debate, the position of Scottish Labour becomes increasingly interesting. Here’s a few stats from a previously solid Labour area we canvassed recently:

    Yes 39.3%
    No 29.2%

    SNP 42.5%
    Lab 17%

    (the rest made up of undecideds, refused, won’t vote & other parties)

    This was a small sample, but I doubt it’s unique, and I doubt it is very different from what Labour canvassers (if any) are finding elsewhere.

    Now we know that Scottish Labour are slow to grasp things, and maybe especially slow to grasp nettles. But faced with another potential wipe-out in constituencies and the growing possibility that they will find themselves not even the official opposition in Holyrood – sooner or later they must surely come to realise that all that will save them from electoral irrelevance is backing independence, especially in the event of Brexit.

    – So who is going to take the enormous step of challenging for the leadership with that message? At one point I would have backed McLeish or Chisholm, but it’s going to take someone younger and more determined. I don’t see a likely candidate myself, but someone, somewhere, will be looking at the stats and wondering….

  54. Chic McGregor says:

    Is it not just possible that the message that we will still be ‘British’ in an analogous ‘Scandinavian’ sense has at last percolated through to the masses, or some of them at least?

    God knows we’ve been trying to get it there for long enough.

  55. Robert Peffers says:

    @muttley79 says: 16 February, 2016 at 1:12 pm:

    ” … I just do not recognise this “fanatic fringe” at all.”

    You are right to do so, Muttley. There have been several instances of the SNP expelling members or sects from the party for either too militant behaviour or overy blood & soil nationalism.

    You will find a very long list here :-

    https://books.google.co.uk/books?id=qps14mSlghcC&pg=PA407&lpg=PA407&dq=organs+expelled+from+the+SNP&source=bl&ots=2k8MQ1CGX3&sig=qw3QHioKoW8FEJVWOqsW1QVav7E&hl=en&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwjDn6uxv_zKAhVGuhoKHWByDRkQ6AEIPjAF#v=onepage&q=organs%20expelled%20from%20the%20SNP&f=false

    Wow! That’s quite a site reference. I hope it works.

  56. Dan Huil says:

    Scotland regaining its independence will reduce the imperial nastiness of Britishness. English nationalism, however, may well increase in nastiness.

  57. Macart says:

    Fact is, it doesn’t matter how you present yourself as a yes voter. The media and opposition parties did a bang up job of demonising the independence movement and poisoning the term Scottish Nationalist/ism.

    You are always trying to play catch up, starting from behind by trying to explain civic nationalism before you get to debate current issues. Our media and their chain pullers saw to that and then some. It’s a drum they still bang on a daily basis, though with thankfully diminishing returns.

    What is required are more pieces like this, highlighting the hypocrisy, the naked projection of elements of the opposition mindset, seeing the light of day.

  58. snode1965 says:

    To get a proper perspective on the hardening of the Britnat ire, pay a visit to the SNP Facebook page comments. You can perm any combination of the following traits; Rangers,poppies,Ulster,Military sevice,Britain First,OO and EU out.

  59. Broch Landers says:

    Possibly your most theoretical/academic post yet, Rev.

    To paraphrase Tom Nairn, the Obi-Wan Kenobi of the independence movement, Scotland will be free when the last Loyalist North Brit is strangled with the last copy of the last (insert failing unionist newspaper here).

    Stay on target.

  60. Robert Louis says:

    Grouse beater at 224

    Fortunately, the bonny badge company makes little saltire stickers, just the right size, to cover up the odious union jackery.

    https://the-bonny-badge-company.myshopify.com/products/mini-flag-stickers-scotland

    A similar thing is happening in Wales, where people are angry about the union jackery on their licence too.

    The question I have is, does London think this will make me suddenly decide I don’t want independence, or have they done it just to p*ss Scots off? My guess it is the latter. Very childish.

  61. Chic McGregor says:

    Re the bomb damage photos.

    Pulling from memory so only ball park figures.

    German tonnage dropped on UK WWII approx 75,000

    British/American tonnage dropped on Germany approx 1,400,000

    Casualties UK approx 70,000, Germany approx 2,000,000

    Also, Churchill and co were the first to instigate deliberate targeting of civilians in response to Russian complaints that they were not doing their bit.

    There is even on record, instructions from the British Government to specifically target working class areas rather than middle class areas.

  62. scribblerdubious says:

    “Ethnic nationalism hasn’t gone away, it just switched sides.”

    …just wait for the middle-class hard-left to start exhorting you to self-flagellate because there are racists on the yes side too…

  63. Robert Peffers says:

    @Peter McCulloch says: 16 February, 2016 at 1:16 pm:

    “I wonder if the claim about the reduction in the number of those describing themselves as Scottish has anything to do with the way documents are worded?”

    My thoughts exactly, Peter, in facet there is no such thing as, “British Nationality”, as there is no such unified state or country as Britain. There are three non-UK crown protectorates, a non-UK Republic and a (united), Kingdom.

    The latter contains four different countries and at least three of them regard themselves as distinct nations.

  64. Thepnr says:

    There may be another fairly logical explanation for the increase in the group “Scottish and British” and the corresponding decline in those as describing themselves “Scottish not British” and “More Scottish than British”.

    Those that moved over and became less Scottish knew now they were faced with making a choice in the referendum. How could they then describe themselves as more Scottish if they intended to vote No?

    It does not compute to believe you are more Scottish but intend to vote No and to be ruled by another country.

    In the end it seems like the figures for 2014 more or less reflect the reality of the result in the referendum. Give or take.

  65. Chic McGregor says:

    @Dave MacIntyre
    “Nothing wrong with that, but for those like me that don’t identify as British it’s an increasing problem, especially when travelling abroad.”

    My wife’s uncle refused to change Scottish to British at a US airport and flew back to Scotland rather than comply.

  66. Craig P says:

    I’m going the other way. I used to describe my identity as Scottish and British. However since the indyref it is Scottish only. For me now there are too many negative aspects tied up with Britishness and they are just holding Scotland back.

  67. Flower of Scotland says:

    I was talking to my daughter, who lives in San Francisco, last night. We were talking about USA politics. She agrees with me that any Americam President will help to deny Scotland her Independence.

    It’s not about Trident but about the UK being USA,s ally (or puppet, whatever you prefer).

    We have had everything thrown at us since I started voting SNP in the 60s. Hopefully I will see an Independent Scotland, confident and friendly, in my lifetime.

  68. K1 says:

    Robert (Peffers) your linked, smallified:

    http://tinyurl.com/zdyojjn

  69. Fran says:

    I’m confused about British nationalism anyway.

    The country was named by Italians
    The monarchy are German
    The the national anthem is French

    And they don’t like foreigners/Europeans A totally confused lot of people.

    Having a Scottish identity seems a lot simpler.

  70. Robert Peffers says:

    @muttley79 says: 16 February, 2016 at 1:23 pm:

    ” … I know John McTernan has said there is no such as British nationalism.”,

    It must be the only thing in his life that bloody numptie ever got right.

    Britain is a group of islands.

    They are not a single state nor a single country and every last bit of them are just as British, or maybe even more so, than Queen Elizabeth herself.

    What they all are NOT is parts of the United Kingdom.

  71. Inverclyder says:

    OT
    EU Referendum

    Some headlines seen recently….

    Banks might leave.
    Huge Job Losses.
    ‘Britain leaving the EU? There’s no plan B’.
    Prince William signals support for Britain staying in the EU.

    Is it Groundhog Referendum Day?

  72. Dr Jim says:

    If the Yoons can use religion they will, if they can use Football, they will, if they can use colour, they will

    Idiots abound everywhere, that’s what got us into this mess, political use of the bewildered, the Labour party have done it for as long as I can remember, more recently Murphy tried to revive it and failed, people are getting a little smarter

    The Tories pretend to represent the better educated and moderate class, same CON different words

    For Football fans everywhere, just because there are idiots who turn up at your favourite team and make complete Arses of themselves doesn’t mean you are

    The big two teams have more Numpties because there are more of them so it stands to reason they’re louder and get more attention (Kafflicks and Proddies) how dim are these people after years they still don’t get it (cash fodder)

    I don’t believe there is anything the Yoons won’t do to save their Yoonion and reason doesn’t come into it, but fear and unpleasantness are powerful tools

    I’ve never believed the Yoons desperation to keep Scotland was about finances even though it has benefitted RuK
    I believe it’s about property ownership, Imperialism, the embarrassment of losing it and the main reason, Location Location Location and the control of it strategically

    When the next time comes we will be threatened mercilessly with every kind of doomsday scenario, vile accusation, and threat of Global withdrawal of support from every financial institution there is, the last Referendum was just the warm up to the real test, the Yoons know they have to up their game next time to win, and they will

    Support for Independence may be only rising slowly but just as importantly support for the Yoonion is diminishing more quickly so it could be possible if put to the vote the turnout could be lower because less Yoons see a reason TO vote (maybe more hope than judgement there)

    SNPx2 certainly won’t hinder us

  73. K1 says:

    It’s English nationalism not British nationlism. But we can’t say that else we’re branded as anti-English.

  74. Rev. Stuart Campbell says:

    “The largest group who choose to describe themselves as both “Scottish and British” is the main reason for the 30% and 43% figures. It may also be reasonably argued that 50% of this group may “reasonably be termed” Nationalist.”

    In the current political context, calling yourself “Scottish and British” is an unmistakeably Unionist identification. You see it all the time on Yoon Twitter bios. You never see it on a Yesser’s.

  75. Rev. Stuart Campbell says:

    “It’s English nationalism not British nationlism.”

    It’s really not. That’s a whole separate thing.

  76. Capella says:

    I agree with Mao Tse Tung on this topic:

    “in wars of national liberation patriotism is applied internationalism.”

    Thus, Scottish civic nationalism is applied internationalism. It is opposed to imperialism of all kinds. We think all nation states have the right to self determination. Scotland is one of the oldest nation states.

    https://www.marxists.org/reference/archive/mao/works/red-book/ch18.htm

  77. Thepnr says:

    @Craig P

    I’m with now, my nationality is Scottish. The brainwashing propaganda worked for many years and had me believe I was British.

    The establishment though took it too far and have lost me forever.

  78. Domhnall MaCCoinnich says:

    That is all very well but the Rev perpetuates British ethnic nationalism himself with his derogatory views on Gaelic. Everything he spouted about Gaelic was just the regurgitated British propaganda of the last few hundred years. This is the kind of nationalism people are blind to for some reason. Very odd given that this British drive towards uniformity/homogeneity was in fact very definitely driven by the perceived need to create the nation that is Britain/UK. A one size fits all ethnic identity was needed and was brought about by force/legislation/marginalisation etc.. If that is not fucking ethnic nationalism then I don’t know what is. ……The rev just ignorantly regurgitated this view of Gaelic as an obsolete culture/language. The British used this same supremacist attitude to cultures and languages all over the world and it is being perpetuated to this day by people all over the world who are still pushing this 19th century ideal of British led ideas of progress etc. that the rest of the world should follow. The Rev needs to do a bit of reading and self scrutiny before he jumps on his high horse. If he is going to take on board cultural relativity (where there is no hierarchy of good and bad races, cultures, languages etc.) he should apply it to all cultures and not just the ones that don’t irritate him because it makes him feel a wee bit less Scottish or whatever it is that is really bothering him. Hypocritical in the extreme.

  79. K1 says:

    I suppose, nonetheless it’s entwined.

  80. Fergus Green says:

    I have never described myself as a ‘nationalist’ – because I am not. Nationalism to me portrays the idea of thinking you are better than someone else, because of your ethnicity or nationality. That’s not me either, but it does apply to the ‘BritNats’. I don’t feel as a Scot that I am superior to anyone from another country, but I do desire that which most other citizens of the world already have, the right to elect my own government.

    Call me a secessionist, or an independenista, but don’t call me a nationalist.

  81. CameronB Brodie says:

    Sorry for the length of this post but I think we all kind of agree that this is important.

    Nationalism?

    noun
    1 Patriotic feeling, principles, or efforts:
    “an early consciousness of nationalism and pride”

    1.1 An extreme form of patriotism marked by a feeling of superiority over other countries:
    “playing with right-wing nationalism”

    1.2 Advocacy of political independence for a particular country:
    “Scottish nationalism”

    http://www.oxforddictionaries.com/definition/english/nationalism

    What?

    In an anthropological spirit, then, I propose the following definition of the nation: it is an imagined political community – – and imagined as both inherently limited and sovereign. – Benedict Anderson

    Nationalism is an ideology about individuated being. It is an ideology concerned with boundedness, continuity, and homogeneity encompassing diversity. It is an ideology in which social reality, conceived in terms of nationhood, is endowed with the reality of natural things. – Richard Handler

    In fact, nations, like states, are a contingency, and not a universal necessity. Neither nations nor states exist at all times and in all circumstances. Moreover, nations and states are not the same contingency. Nationalism holds that they were destined for each other; that either without the other is incomplete, and constitutes a tragedy. But before they could become intended for each other, each of them had to emerge, and their emergence was independent and contingent. The state has certainly emerged without the help of the nation. Some nations have certainly emerged without the blessings of their own state. It is more debatable whether the normative idea of the nation, in its modern sense, did not presuppose the prior existence of the state. – Ernest Gellner

    The term ‘nationalism’ is used to refer to political movements seeking or exercising state power and justifying such actions with nationalist arguments. – John Breuilly

    Now the ‘nation is not, of course, an eternal category, but was the product of a long and complicated process of historical development in Europe. For our purposes, let us define it at the outset as a large social group integrated not by one but by a combination of several kinds of objective relationships (economic, political, linguistic, cultural, religious, geographical, historical), and their subjective reflection in collective consciousness. Many of these ties could be mutually substituable – some playing a particularly important role in one nation-building process, and no more than a subidiary part in others. But among them, three stand out as irreplaceable: (1) a ‘memory’ of some common past, treated as a ‘destiny’ of the group – or at least of its core constituents; (2) a density of linguistic or cultural ties enabling a higher degree of social communication within the group than beyond it; (3) a conception of the equality of all members of the group organized as a civil society. – Miroslav Hroch

    A nation is a soul, a spiritual principle. Two things, which in truth are but one, constitute this soul or spiritual principle. One lies in the past, one in the present. One is the possession in common of a rich legacy of memories; the other is present- day consent, the desire to live together, the will to perpetuate the value of the heritage that one has received in an undivided form. Man, Gentlemen, does not improvise. The nation, like the individual, is the culmination of a long past of endeavours, sacrifice, and devotion. Of all cults, that of the ancestors is the most legitimate, for the ancestors have made us what we are. A heroic past, great men, glory (by which I understand genuine glory), this is the social capital upon which one bases a national idea. To have common glories in the past and to have a common will in the present; to have performed great deeds together, to wish to perform still more-these are the essential conditions for being a people. One loves in proportion to the sacrifices to which one has consented, and in proportion to the ills that one has suffered. One loves the house that one has built and that one has handed down. The Spartan song-“We are what you were; we will be what you are” — is, in its simplicity, the abridged hymn of every patrie.- Ernest Renan

    … there is something misleading about this accepted use of the word ‘nationalism’. It always seems to locate nationalism on the periphery. Separatists are often to be found in the outer regions of states; the extremists lurk on the margins of political life in established democracies, usually shunned by the sensible politicians of the centre. The guerrilla figures, seeking to establish their new homelands, operate in conditions where existing structures of state have collapsed, typically at a distance from the established centres of the West. From the perspective of Paris, peripherally placed on the edge of Europe. All these factors combine to make nationalism not merely an exotic force, but a peripheral one. In consequence, those in established nations – at the centre of things – are led to see nationalism as the property of others, not of ‘us’. – Michael Billig

    It is widely appreciated that there are important differences between nationalist movements. Much effort has been made to create typologies that aim to capture some of the relevant distinctions (see, for example, Hall 1993). Most of these distinguish the liberal, culturally inclusive (Sleeping Beauty) nationalisms characteristic of Western Europe from the illiberal, culturally exclusive (Frankenstein’s monster) nationalisms more often found elsewhere. Whereas these normative differences between nationalist movements have been enormously important in history, it is doubtful that they can be explained if the dimensions of nationalism are chosen on normative grounds. To explain why nationalism has taken such different forms in different societies, it is better to seek a typology that is derived from analytical considerations. – Michael Hechter

    http://www.nationalismproject.org/what.htm

    One might say the word is a gift to semiotics, whatever that means?

  82. muttley79 says:

    @kininvie

    Now we know that Scottish Labour are slow to grasp things, and maybe especially slow to grasp nettles. But faced with another potential wipe-out in constituencies and the growing possibility that they will find themselves not even the official opposition in Holyrood – sooner or later they must surely come to realise that all that will save them from electoral irrelevance is backing independence, especially in the event of Brexit.

    I think Henry McLeish has said he will support independence if Scotland gets dragged out of the EU against its wishes. But you just need to listen to the likes of Neil Findlay, Kezia Dugdale, Baillie etc to know that, because their anti-SNP attitude has reached such levels of massive irrationality and hatred, they will never in all likelihood support independence. It is pretty much their core political belief and ideology, and it is so deep rooted in them as politicians now ( probably even as individuals/people), that I fear McLeish will not be overburdened with company from SLABers supporting independence.

  83. Dan Huil says:

    Never forget or underestimate britnat Westminster’s ability to do the exact thing which undermines their so-called united kingdom. Okay they might not execute 16 SNP MPs but coming soon: the insulting Scotland Bill and the EU referendum with all its little-Englander implications, to name just two.

  84. Thepnr says:

    @Rev Stu

    Went some way to correcting my thinking with post at 2:45.

  85. Robert Peffers says:

    @Taranaich says: 16 February, 2016 at 1:30 pm:

    ” … Nationalism, at it’s core, is neutral: it is what it is used for which makes it good or evil.”

    Nah! Taranaich! I’ve never come across such a thing as evil nationalism. What I have come across is evil criminals who called themselves nationalists but who were diametrically the opposite of nationalists.

    The German NAZI party, Mussolini, Genghis Khan, The British Empire, Mrs Thatcher. Et Al.

    All these were far from being nationalists as what each and every one of them sought was to rule over other nations and make them part of their own

    Nationalists, by definition, only wish to run their own nations affairs and no others.

    D’you know the parable of the Scorpion who wanted to cross the river on the turtle’s back?

    Just ‘cos they say they won’t sting you, doesn’t mean they won’t, and you should, of course, know that.

  86. Iain says:

    I suppose it all boils down to if you ask the wrong questions you, are going to get the wrong answers. The poor old yoons can see their whole world disappearing before their eyes and there is nothing they can do about it. The people of Scotland have woken up and no longer believe the bum lies. So their empire will fall, the punching above their weight will end. Goodbye the seat on the U.N. security council, goodbye trident, and goodbye the special relationship with the USA( holding their jacket, while they fight). Still they can comfort themselves that they brought it on themselves.

  87. Angry Weegie says:

    As someone who worked abroad for a great deal of my working life, the difference in the reception you were given in many European countries, between being Scottish and being British (which most thought equalled English) was enormous. I never claimed to be British.

  88. call me dave says:

    I last was offered a UJ to wave at Queenie and the Prince Ph. by a school teacher when the royal RR shot through Cowdenbeath away back in 1950…. something.
    The whole primary school was marched out from Hill of Beath to make up the numbers, but I opted for the lion rampart flag.
    Not many Saltires if any… that I remember!

    It was a cold day and I had my pockies on, string on each and laced through my coat sleeves.. Happy days! 🙁

    PS:
    SNP MP urges Greg Hands to ‘get on first flight back to UK’ to finalise fiscal framework deal
    A spokesman for Nicola Sturgeon said Mr Hands’s action “beggars belief”.

    https://archive.is/3Jnwx

  89. Auld Rock says:

    Let’s not waste our precious time speculating we have two tests coming in the neaar future; first, what % of the vote will Ruthie and her Brit Nats get on the the 5th May; seond how will the %’s of the votes IN or OUT stack-up in Scotland/England ome EU Referendum? Until then let’s get out there and ensure that they get well and truly STUFFED.

    Auld Rock

  90. Paula Rose says:

    So – let me see if I’ve got this right.

    I was born in England so I can describe myself as English.

    I live in Scotland so I can call myself Scottish.

    They are both parts of the British Isles so I can call myself British.

    But there is no one word that identifies me as being a UK citizen?

  91. K1 says:

    ukokist.

  92. Robert Peffers says:

    @galamcennalath says: 16 February, 2016 at 1:35 pm:

    “The word nationalism comes with a lot of baggage.”

    No it doesn’t, galamcennalath.

    It only has bad connotations if it is wrongly applied.

    Nationalism in itself cannot be evil.

    The definition of, “Nationalism”, is noun, Patriotic sentiments, principles, etc; A policy of natinal independence or self-government.

    There can be nothing evil about either definition.

    What is evil is the use of the term to decribe smone who wants to take over or rule another nation and that is exactly the opposite of being a nationalist.

    What you are describing as, “right-wing nationalism”, is actually internationalism like, for example, the British Empire or the NAZIs.

    Nationalists are such as Nelson Mandela or Ghandi or Mendez.

  93. Thepnr says:

    @call me dave

    The fiscal framework negotiations between the Treasury and the Scottish Government are undoubtedly the most important political business going on right now. Not just for Scotland but for the UK as well.

    For the chief negotiator to pop off for his holidays after requestion an extension to the “deadline” gives a flavour of how important and relevant these negotiations are to Westminster.

    It is no more than a bad joke, utter contempt from Westminster/Treasury is more appropriate. Glad to see that Nicola Sturgeon has expressed her view. The SNP have an open goal and really aught to make a big deal of this in the next week. If I was Swinney I’d demand he meet me face to face or NO DEAL.

    Have the National come out with anything? This should be a two page spread, such is the snub.

  94. arthur thomson says:

    I think it may well be that the referendum has hardened the attitudes of those who voted No and now actually see themselves as choosing British as their nationality. I imagine it has also left a lot of people who were unsure which way to turn deciding to stay in the what they perceive to be the middle ground. I would expect also that there are those who voted Yes but were not previously active supporters of independence who are now hardened in their support of it.

    Perhaps we can now see just how difficult our task actually is and avoid thinking that we should somehow be able to achieve it at a canter. We are trying to undo the effects of three centuries of subjugation. We will only succeed with infinite patience and an absolute commitment to our goal. The struggle ahead is not going to be for the fainthearted.

  95. yesindyref2 says:

    Just want to point out that the LSE article, which Pete Wishart tweeted about, was from May 2015. And I seem to remember it was quite widely trashed at the time. I think I did too, no idea why though, perhaps to do with ScotCen surveys showing a different picture.

    Note to self, don’t be vague be hague and set the world at war, oh, maybe not.

  96. Capella says:

    Before Nation States, people were bossed around by feudal overlords and their barons, often family dynasties, the Hapsburgs, the Saxe-Coburg-Gothas, Savoys, Bourbons, Romanovs etc etc.

    Democracy emerged when people fought for a say in decision making. National decision making bodies, such as Parliament, replaced imperial advisors (well in theory anyway).
    We are still in that process. It’s far from complete.

    Now, the wealthiest 0.1% have no need of nation states. They get in the way of global capital which wants freedom to make decisions unhampered by petty demands from the serfs – us. That’s why they find the idea of nationalism a threat. It implies ordinary people having some influence in political decisions.

    How can you run a trans national global corporation if you are persecuted by petty rules and regulations dreamt up by parochial pols pandering to their electorate?

    On identity, I can’t imagine a French citizen, asked whether he or she felt French, would answer “Non”.

    But I can imagine a Belgian citizen saying that because Belgium is a state made up of Flemish and Walloons.

  97. Onwards says:

    The various types of nationalism, and the weapon that gives to opponents is why it would be far easier if the SNP were called the Scottish Democrats or something similar.
    And yes I know It is ‘National’, not ‘Nationalist’.
    Still too similar and hands them an easy target.

  98. Bob Mack says:

    @Arthur Thomson,

    There is hope. The hardliners across in N Ireland eventually realised that you have to work together,hence the Good Friday agreement. Scotland is a Kingdom not a provknce and that is the main difference. It matters not the Unionists don’t like the idea,it is just a fact.

  99. Thepnr says:

    @yesindyref2

    The fact that the LSE article is from months ago is by the Rev if you care to hover over the quote from the article.

    Doesn’t matter when it is from, what matters is the content.

    If some are going to “trash” the results from the Scottish Social Attitudes Survey then which surveys can you have any faith in without describing them as “trash”?

    People who would do such a thing tend to see every survey as “trash” unless it supports their own bias beliefs in my opinion.

  100. orri says:

    In the context of independence it’s easy to believe that claiming to be equally Scottish and British is a declaration of support for the union. On the other hand there’s nothing to tell us what the context of the poll in question was. Certainly being born in Scotland means that I’m by default British and arguably European. Personally I’m more likely to answer equally both these days as I’m fucked if I’ll let anyone tell me what being british is about. Same as when I thought of myself as a christian I’d tell anyone claiming that I had to worship their way to fuck of too.

  101. De Valera says:

    I feel that people like Ruth Davidson, Blair McDougall and McTernan would be happy to be referred to as Loyalists.

  102. call me dave says:

    Auntie on radio says:

    Swinney and Hands used phone today to discuss the framework and Hands says he might come home early if Swinney makes a substantial compromise… otherwise he’s toasting his buns in the sun, so there!

    PS:
    Tom Greatrex (labour) (Nuclear Industry Association) says good news on Nuclear till 2013.

    He also says on Radio Scotland ‘Scotland’ doesn’t have enough energy to cover it’s needs and is importing power from the rest of the UK 1 day in every 4.

    BBC agree and repeat in case we didn’t hear it the first time Scotland will always rely on the rest of the UK for power.

  103. yesindyref2 says:

    @Thepnr
    It’s not the Scottish Social Attitudes Survey that was trashed (if it was), it’s the LSE article, and I did say “seem to remember”. Perhaps it contradicts the ScotCen results, which I always found interesting.

    As far as the LSE is concerned, they came out with a lot of good straight reports during the Indy Ref, when few others were.

  104. yesindyref2 says:

    Could be I’m mixing it up with another one, all the same. It was more a warning that it’s nearly a year old.

  105. Petra says:

    The research findings outlined by the London School of Economics tells us very little at all.

    All they’ve done is highlighted percentages of groupings that is – Scottish not British – more Scottish than British – equally Scottish and British – more British than Scottish – British not Scottish – other / none.

    They say ”if commentators want to understand why the SNP is successful, they need to make a greater effort at properly understanding how public attitudes are formed in Scotland.”

    In turn to understand why the SNP is not as successful as it should / could be (other than influence of media bias) you’d have to know where those that were polled originally came from such as England, Pakistan or wherever and then you’d have to establish if this influx of people from elsewhere had increased say since 2011.

    Many people’s attitudes have been formed before they even arrive in Scotland whether it be from say N Ireland, England or Poland.

    And then it becomes even more complex. They say ”amongst those who voted SNP over 40 per cent were not in favour of independence at the time.”

    Many relocators (a percentage of the 40%) vote for the SNP because they are keen to live in a country with free prescriptions and so on but when it comes to Independence they are normally to be found in the ‘equally Scottish and British – more British than Scottish – British not Scottish’ categories and vote No.

    Thanks for that link Taranaich (1:43pm). That’s helpful. I’ve got some data buried in my wee archive that I can’t put my hands on at the moment that may also shed some light on the matter.

    ”Taranaich: Just remembered: the 2011 census found 62% felt “Scottish only,” with “Scottish & British” at 18% and “British only” at 8%:

    http://www.scotlandscensus.gov.uk/news/census-2011-detailed-characteristics-ethnicity-identity-language-and-religion-scotland-–

  106. Onwards says:

    @Rev. Stuart Campbell:
    “In the current political context, calling yourself “Scottish and British” is an unmistakeably Unionist identification”
    —–

    I think Andy Murray has made it more acceptable.
    And all the ‘Great British public’ TV shows have likely had some influence.

    Still more likely to be a unionist identity, but you can’t rule out support for Scottish independence and a Britain of equals.

  107. frogesque says:

    @ call me dave 4.13.

    Heard that as well on Shortbread. So angry that Hands thinks he will only come home if Swiney rolls over.

    Time to tell him to get his arse in gear and come home or GTF, no deal.

  108. yesindyref2 says:

    Got it. Busy, so my first one was a very quick post, but I think there was an article in the Herald about that LSE article which I daresay would have been a bit distorted. But there was also a very very good and thought-provoking article by Ian Bell:

    http://archive.is/k04iu

    “I’m a nationalist. This is where I live and where I live would be better off making its own, fundamental choices”

  109. Macart says:

    Definitions

    Tricky things, so they are. I like to keep it simple.

    I’m a Scot by geography and a democrat by nature. The former by accident of birth and both, at this point in time, by choice. That is, I may not have been able to choose where I was born, but I know where I choose to live and call home.

    I’ve never been big on ists or isms, too easy for some folk with bigger soap boxes to redefine for their own ends. Couldn’t even tell you what half these ists or isms stand for. I’ll let others who read books and do philosophy tackle that. I just am who I am.

    I believe in personal and collective independence. The right of an individual or a collective to determine their own course, make their own decisions, based on their own needs and priorities. I believe they have the right to aspire and become the best they can possibly be. I believe the people of my country have the right to govern themselves and make those choices. I don’t think I’m better than the next person and never will, but I’m damned if I’ll be regarded as lesser than any human being because of where I call home.

    No one has the right to define me, but me and most certainly not politicians I’ve never met or a media that may as well come from a different planet.

    So yeah, a Scot and a democrat.

  110. There you go again giving credence to these phoney polls they who profess to hold them will make their point,of view come out top all the time for a poll to mean anything you would have to ask Everyone in the country concerned all the pollsters do is give you a certain amount of people’s opinion and falsely imply that,is the opinion of the whole country which it is not so please do not give any publicity treat them with the contempt they deserve O.T. Hello John I was also in the Scots Guards for 6years I had my 16th birthday serving with the 2nd battalion in Germany in 1955 all the best

  111. galamcennalath says:

    Robert Peffers says:

    “The word nationalism comes with a lot of baggage.”

    No it doesn’t

    The academic meaning is quite a different matter to the feelings it invokes in most people across the world. I would add, sadly.

    Paint a swastika on a wall and then try telling everyone that it was originally an Indian symbol of good luck! Good luck indeed with that one.

    Meanings become embedded, correct or otherwise

    As the Rev says in reponse to a comment similar to yours …

    Rev. Stuart Campbell says:
    16 February, 2016 at 1:41 pm
    “Nationalism, at it’s core, is neutral: it is what it is used for which makes it good or evil.”

    Again, though, you can SAY that till you’re blue in the face, but nobody will listen. The PERCEPTION, as galamcennalath notes, is that “nationalist” means, essentially, ethno-fascist.

    He makes the point more vividly than I.

    The words nationalism and nationalist, if intended to be used in the civic sense, need so much explanation and caveat for most situations that it just isn’t worth the effort.

  112. CameronB Brodie says:

    Petra
    Though nothing in life is certain, the boffins figure a person’s identity has pretty much formed by the age of 21. This identity reflects the cultural environment and values they grew up surrounded by.

    Re. the LSE study. I read it as an rather unscientific ‘analysis’ of polling figures, nothing more. The gently inferred correlation between the statistical drop in feelings of Scottish-ness and post-devolution, may well be random chance. No causation was proven, though the author appears willing to advise the Westminster parties on how to defeat Scotland’s self-determination.

    @ Jan Eichhorn
    It all boils down to umwelt, see. That’s seven words. Would it be unfair to suggest you are not being paid by the word and that your study’s finding pleased your employer, the University of Edinburgh?

  113. Socrates MacSporran says:

    Living as I do in Ayrshire, aka “Orange County”, I have, since the Referendum campaign began, had some interesting discussions with members of the Orange Order, regarding their vote No, pro Westminster stance.

    I realise, around here memories are long, the Orange Order takes its name from its support of King Billy and 1690 was just last week in some mindsets. I further realise there is still a belief among some in the ranks of the OO, to the effect: “Home Rule means Rome Rule”.

    But, the whole ethos of the OO is support for a Protestant Monarchy, and, given the present Queen continues to have the support of the SNP for her to continue as Queen of Scots in an independent Scotland, and that her son and heir – who has in a very short time worked wonders in East Ayrshire, around Dumfries House, is popular locally – I cannot see the same support not coming to him when he ascends the throne.

    Therefore, for the immediate future, even an independent Scotland will have a Protestant Queen or King. So, why does the OO feel it necessary to support the continuation of Westminster rule?

    Whether Westminster or Holyrood has political control – the monarch will still be a Protestant, and that’s what the OO is supposed to be all about.

  114. Thepnr says:

    @call me dave

    “He also says on Radio Scotland ‘Scotland’ doesn’t have enough energy to cover it’s needs and is importing power from the rest of the UK 1 day in every 4.”

    Tom Greatrex (labour) (Nuclear Industry Association) is obscuring the reality or just downright lying. Considering that 38% of Scottish production of electricity is from renewables it is just about believable that there will be times when electricity flows from England to Scotland.

    This however cannot disguise the FACT that Scotland exports around 24% of her electricity production to the rest of the UK.

    The UK government statistics tell us so:

    England is a net importer of electricity from Scotland and from continental Europe (via the France and Netherlands interconnectors), but was a net exporter to Wales for the first time in 2014.

    Net imports from France were a record high 15.0 TWh, while net imports from the Netherlands were 7.9 TWh, also a record high.

    In 2014, Scotland exported 23.7 per cent of the electricity generated there to consumers elsewhere in the UK

    https://www.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attachment_data/file/487870/ET_Dec_15.pdf

  115. scotspine says:

    @ R Type Grunt

    Hey, come on. Its Blair’s flute and he will play it as fast and often as he likes!….

    As we all know he likes to.

  116. Valerie says:

    Off topic

    This is funny, and still true

    1987, Spitting Image

    https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=nljGymA7siw

    Just read Massies usual patronising tripe in the Spectator, about Cameron will just have to do a deal on the Fiscal framework, to stop SNP looking like heroes, for standing up for Scotland.

  117. yesindyref2 says:

    There’s an interesting but sad comment from that LSE blog: “The Nats have crushed out of me all the pride I once had in being Scottish.”

    What’s happened is that a few nutters on the Unionist side sought to compare the “Nats” i.e. SNP, with the nat sis, and of course the extreme elements of the London media feasted on this.

    To counter this first, those of an Indy persusasion first said “ah but it’s CIVIC nationalism” and nationalism with a small c not a big one. Mmm. Well fine, but it’s also “nationalist”, in that I daresay most Scots including Mone want Scotland to win at the Rugby. And why not. Also there’s a pride in Scotland’s performance in various things, a pride shared by both sides.

    Unfortunately another tactic was to bring in “BritNats”, and “Proud Scot but”. Which is used as a counter-insult. It’s just as bad as the other side using insults.

    Thing is that what Indy supporters need to accept, and I really mean NEED to accept, is that there are NO voters, and they’re completely entitled to vote NO.

    Similarly those who don’t want Independence need to accept that we who support Independence for Scotland, are perfectly entitled to do so.

    Sadly there are extreme nutters on both sides, which drags all the reasonable people on both sides, into the fight, rather than all of us from both sides, turning around to the extreme bigoted nutters and telling them to go forth and mutliply, but preferably on another planet at the far end of a very long wormhole. And fight each other out there, somewhere.

  118. yesindyref2 says:

    @Valerie
    OT
    Massie may have started out a bit reasonable 2 or 3 years ago, but the media attention has gone to his head. He’s doing the common London Scot thing of running down Scotland at any chance to ingratiate himself with the English who probably think he’s a jerk for doing so but smile to his face. He’ll probably lay on the Scot thing a bit to prove he is one.

    I lived in London for a few years long ago, saw it all the time. People would laugh with contempt behind the back of anyone who did that. Because they wouldn’t themselves. There used to be an expression for it, but I forget what it was.

    With the Indy Ref that very common thing focussed on the SNP.

  119. CameronB Brodie says:

    Socrates MacSporran
    Now, is that Presbyterian protestant or Anglican protestant?

    Despite being an unbeliever and rather ignorant on all things “religion”, I simply can’t see how is it possible to be both at the same time? Same faith perhaps but totally different sects, Shirley? A bit like being the Iranian spiritual leader but being a bit Wahhabi on your days off. 🙂

    Oops, was that biggoted and racist, all in the same gag? 😉

  120. paul gerard mccormack says:

    Succinct and so true.
    People who’d never have voted SNP, voted YES and now are natural SNP voters.
    How energy changes form!

  121. Geoff Huijer says:

    This is just a wonderful article with some really valid/interesting comments.

    I can certainly identify with those who ‘followed’ Rangers but want nothing to do with them any longer. I also know that you can’t tar everyone with the same brush but I’m afraid I can no longer ‘support’ a club that have a sizeable core of fans who are against my country’s independence.

    Equally, as someone above also mentioned I’m afraid that after seeing ex-Scotland Rugby players (indeed, at least one Captain) backing the ‘No’ campaign I just cannot get enthused about the national team either. I have tried watching a couple of games but something is missing – perhaps I am just being resentful or feel let down (which is my problem not theirs), but I just don’t feel the same passion any longer.

    The way that Better Together and the media embraced the nastier BritNats was appalling (and I mean ’embraced’ because I feel they did by the very fact they did not distance themselves from them; the get-out-clause being ‘they were not official partners’ just doesn’t wash.

    The short-termism of the Better Together mob and the media has a lot to answer for.

  122. Chitterinlicht says:

    For me independence is mostly about reducing the number of politicians and governments in my life . I would rather Scotland was in charge of it’s own decisions than London. Not sure about Europe any more tbh.

    I like being Scottish but tartan and haggis don’t define me or my political decisions.

    I also like lot of things about England, France, Ireland, Greece, USA etc. But I don’t want them to make political decisions for me.

    What is so strange about the people living in a country democratically deciding to run things for themselves? Absolutely nothing.

    What is it Unionists are so scared of?

    Happy wee countries not causing any trouble?
    Responsibility?
    Daddies grouse moor?

    Fucked if I know.

    Good article.

  123. muttley79 says:

    @Yesindyref2

    There’s an interesting but sad comment from that LSE blog: “The Nats have crushed out of me all the pride I once had in being Scottish.”

    If someone has posted that on the LSE blog in a sincere, genuine way, then that would indicate to me that the individual in question had very little pride in being Scottish in the first place. The SNP campaign for Scotland to be an independent state.

    If this causes you so much bitterness that it has literally crushed all the pride you had in being Scottish, then you have to ask yourself if they preferred it when Scottish voters were quiet and passive, and did not make much, if any demand for Home Rule. I think this kind of a comment is actually very revealing. It says a lot about the person making it. Some elements of conservatism (both small and large c) in Scotland really should not be underestimated in their out and out fear, hostility, and hatred towards extensive Scottish self government, particularly on their seeming desire for the Scottish electorate not to make any demands whatsoever on the British state.

  124. Croompenstein says:

    @Macart@4:39

    That’s exactly how I feel but you hit it with all the right words great post Macart totally agree with you…

    First Minister doing Q&A at 7:00pm

    http://www.facebook.com/NicolaSturgeonSNP

  125. Macbeda says:

    Possibly slightly O/T and probably pedantic

    I consider myself to be a Scot living in Scotland which is part of the British Isles.

    Our queen is normally titled Queen of Scots in Scotland.

    She is not and has never been Queen of Scotland.

    I say am not scottish as I don’t believe I’m an adjective.

  126. Scott Borthwick says:

    I do feel British, but only in the sense that Scandinavians feel Scandinavian.

    Wiki: “Scandinavia /?skænd??ne?vi?/ is a historical and cultural-linguistic region in Northern Europe characterized by a common ethno-cultural North Germanic heritage and mutually intelligible North Germanic languages.”

    I feel, like them, the only way Scotland, England, Ireland and Wales will ever have a proper grown-up relationship with one another is for each country to be independent. I have no doubt that we will find common cause in many areas of mutual interest.

    Leaving the EU is not one of them.

  127. @Valerie

    Massie didn`t get in to any of the major UK Universities,not even Cambridge his fathers Uni ,so he went abroad to complete his further education,

    he writes like a foreign correspondent looking in on Scotland/UK with a stereotypical/ generalization about people/politics in Scotland/UK.

  128. carjamtic says:

    Scotland’s Independance and The Evolution of Social Democracy

    Got the title,now just need the story….

    Along the lines of ‘one small step for a yoon,one giant leap for a nation’

    It does involve,morality,ethics,human values….emotional mither,tae son.’yoon,dinnae be like yer faither,pit it doon yer flags…..choose life…………dinnae be a spanner’

    Is it a happy ending ? (well,a man did walk on the moon,a prime minister did do something to a dead pig, an old blue team did sign a catholic…..proving anything,is actually possible)

    Will yoon listen to his mither ?….Let’s kinhope so 🙂

    SNP x 2

  129. crisiscult says:

    @Socrates MacSporran

    fair play to you for attempting to find logic with the thinking of that particular ‘culture’. I have educated mates who are slightly aligned in their thinking (i.e. not members of the order but influenced by the history of all that stuff that Rangers supporters often flirt with, at the very least). You can put together a reasoned argument for independence but anyone who doesn’t want to change their mind won’t change their mind. A mate of mind essentially said to me ‘I like my opinions and I’m sticking to them’.

    Some people just feel comfortable in the identities they’ve formed by the time they’re adults and don’t want those threatened. Unless you could actually present them with a new car, 50 grand, or a house or something to bribe them, they’ll always come up with a reason to be anti-indy.

  130. Legerwood says:

    Thprn @ 5.27 pm

    Scotland exports electricity to rUK just now but situation may change when Longannet closes.

  131. yesindyref2 says:

    @Muttley
    I half agree with you, but I did meet genuine people who felt they were being told to choose between being Scottish, or voting NO to stay in the Union.

    Mostly the campaigns got past that, but there was still an element of it and normal people were affected. The official line was that people could be both Scottish and British, but some were left with the idea they had to choose.

  132. yesindyref2 says:

    Personally I’m Scottish and British, but Scottish first. Come to that I’d put Ayrshire first before the rest of Scotland

    Though I’m not so sure about they folk in Beith …

  133. Bob Mack says:

    “The Nats have crushed from me all the pride I had in being Scottish””

    What a revealing statement that is. What are you losing therefore to cause that embarrassment and loss of pride ? It can only mean you feel diminished in someone’s eyes. Who would that be?.Yourself? English friends or family.The UK establishment.? It is the statement of a careerist concerned by the damage that could be done to their prospects of advancement if Scotland were not tied up with the UK.

    Perhaps you should look at yourself again, away from trying to ingratiate yourself to anyone.

  134. Paula Rose says:

    @ yesindyref2 – here in Brechin we’re very happy to let any folk be Brechiners as well as Scots – we’re very outward looking that way.

  135. Bob Mack says:

    I just love how the Unionists try to maintain that actually there is no Scotland ,but there is a Gt Britain or UK.

    Our national identity has been accepted in their military,finance houses,monarchy and dozens of other areas for hundreds of years.Suddenly we are really British,and the Treaty of Union expunged Scotland ,and all because we are moving away from them step by step.
    I laughed at guys at Ibrox on an army day,wearing the cap insignia denoting a Scottish regiment,but who felt proud to be British. According to Mundell your Scottish regiment no longer exists.
    I am and always will be a Scot,and no legislation will ever change that

  136. Thepnr says:

    @Lollysmum

    That is a fair point, from the figures I can find which ignore any increase in renewables produced in Scotland since 2014 it would appear that Scotland will still produce in excess of what it consumes. Assumption then is that this will be exported.

    From the earlier link:

    “Scotland had a share of 14.3 per cent of electricity generation in the UK with 49.9 TWh”

    24% of 49.9 TWh is 11.97 TWh or 11,976 GWh.

    “The station produced 9,525 GWh of electricity in 2012, an increase on the 9,139 GWh produced in 2011.”

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Longannet_power_station

    So there will still be a surplus available for export, admittedly 80% less than that exported at the moment.

    Maybe what should happen is that we build a few more natural gas burning power stations in Scotland to use up all that gas newly discovered in the Laggan Tormore field and thenexport that electricity to the rUK.

    To be honest I don’t see the point in exporting this new gas straight to UK gas burning stations 🙂

  137. muttley79 says:

    @Bob Mack

    My thoughts exactly.

  138. yesindyref2 says:

    @Bob Mack
    That wasn’t me saying that, it was a quote from a comment on the blog …

    @Paula Rose
    Brechin is undoubtedly the second best place to live in Scotland. Lot of years since I’ve been there.

  139. Roger says:

    The mighty brain behind the Piss drinker has been sounding off in Prospect Magazine about how bad the SNP are – strange, as they wiped the floor with the party he so successfully advised.

    http://www.prospectmagazine.co.uk/politics/how-nicola-sturgeon-sold-out-scottish-national-party-second-independence-referendum

  140. ewen says:

    I have always considered and identified myself a Scottish. I don’t consider myself British.

    For me it has only negative connotations which have been reinforced by the glut of great British crap on the tv. Scot not brit. I don’t care if it can be used as a geographical adjective. I prefer European.

    As for the Scottish Rugby team. I haven’t watched them since 2014 and won’t and I don’t care what results those brits get. They should be ashamed to sing FOS.

  141. ScottishPsyche says:

    It is encouraging how thoughtful and reasonable this article and comments show independence supporters to be. Very far from the blood and soil, anti-English sentiments often attributed to us.

    I don’t think the extreme loyalist type would ever give up what they see as their British identity but it does intrigue me what the others feel they would lose. After all we share a land mass a common language and a significant part of our history. Is it that weird ‘punching above their weight’ stuff?

    The group for whom the ‘cringe’ seems the strongest – the Muriels – seem even more anxious. As if they would lose their vicarious sophistication by being just Scottish.

    I have no problem what people want to call themselves, I do have a problem with people saying we could not manage on our own.

  142. gerry parker says:

    Perhaps the Scottish rugby team with their UKOK outlook think that it doesn’t really matter who wins in Scot v England games.

    😉

  143. Orri says:

    The reference to Scotland being absorbed into a greater England was always a hypothetical scenario only introduced to be dismissed as an irrelevance as far as our right to self determination goes. There was also another scenario touted where England was also abolished. Besides which if England had centuries more to extinguish a distinct Welsh identity what hobe did they have with Scotland.

  144. Lochside says:

    Why anyone on here can call themselves ‘British’ is beyond me…particularly now after the shite we’ve had to contend with from before and after the REF.

    ‘British’ describes the lumpen scum that defiled our streets on Sept. 19th..’British’ describes the Imperialist toff class that has caused so much suffering and exploitation in this world. ‘British’ describes the islands that lie off the European sub-continent. But they do not describe the Scottish nation of a thousand years.

    Craven colonial cargo cult worshippers may want to kiss the arses of Germanic’monarchs’….let them. In a 21st century Scotland I want no British monarchy or British anything blighting our democracy.

    You Scot/Brits or whatever you want to call yourselves should ask the Irish in the Republic whether they have any confusion as to their ‘Britishness’…derisive laughter might be the least of it. If you Bracket ‘Brit’ with any other nationality than your own, then you’re looking at a slave mentality.

  145. yesindyref2 says:

    @Orri
    Bearing in mind that Scotland took on England’s £18 million debt at the time of the “Union”, it could be argued that therefore Scotland absorbed England by means of that debt, and an enlarged Scotland renamed itself the United Kingdom.

    I wouldn’t argue that, but it’s equally as valid as Crawford & Boyle’s argument.

  146. Croompenstein says:

    Nicola giving some good answers but some of the zoomcat questions leave a bit to be desired… dunno how she can be bothered..

    http://www.facebook.com/NicolaSturgeonSNP/

  147. JLT says:

    Very thought-provoking article, Stuart.

    And as to British Nationalism …well, let’s just see what happens when (if) the EU Referendum is called. It will be a tad interesting to see what types of British Nationalists are going to come out of the woodwork. And will they be singing from the same hymn sheet …not a snowballs chance!

    As far as I can see, we may end up with three types.

    We will have, as you article has pointed out, the extreme version. This will range from the very right wing of it which will include the BNP, Britain First, Orangemen …to what will be considered the more feminine version of it (when you consider who I have just listed) …UKIP! Their view …well …anyone who doesn’t think like them is the enemy; and that includes David Cameron, who as we all know is a very right-wing Tory-boy. So … you can see where this is going …this lot must be really right wing when an old school, toffee-nosed Bullingdon boy isn’t even perceived as that right-wing by this lot! (And that’s even with the royal blood that flows in David’s veins too!)

    Then there will be those who just want Britain to pull out of the EU. These folk just want Britain to be a nice democracy, where England’s lands are nice, green and pleasant, and there’s no Johnny Foreigner telling us what to do. Quiet country roads. Market towns. Everyone speaks properly. Quiet little villages, cricket on the village green on a Saturday afternoon, and nice cool beer on a warm sunny day (this by the way …is how my parents see Britain, I kidd you not!! Talk about ‘rose’-tinted …and they aren’t even English!!! (…though more than half of my family are). You should see the growling / bickering arguments we have when it comes to discussing the status of the UK. Christmas dinners …festive! LOL Ha! Not in my parents house when we review the year. Palestinians sitting with Israelis get on better than discussing Scottish politics with my parents over the turkey). They just seem to have that blinkered view of ‘back in the good old days’ …whenever that was….

    And then we will have Cameron and Co …trying to sell Britain as part of Europe, while at the same time, trying to tell us that Britain as a nation, is standing up to the rest of Europe …while at the same time, wanting the UK to be part of Europe (well …good luck, David on that one! Talk about hotfooting!)

    As Mogabee says in the very posting above …some BritNats are going to be very unhappy. The only question will be …which ones? LOL

  148. yesindyref2 says:

    OT
    Don’t you just hate it when you get a newsletter you never asked for, would have specifically unchecked if there was ever a question, haven’t posted to for months or more, and the unsubscribe doesn’t work? I guess newsnet.scot must be getting desperate.

  149. Brian Doonthetoon says:

    All this typing about energy supply reminded me of this link.

    It’s a web site that shows what’s going on on the national grid, live. Can’t remember where I saved it from – may have been Wings.

    http://www.gridwatch.templar.co.uk/

  150. Onwards says:

    @muttley79 says:
    16 February, 2016 at 6:03 pm

    There’s an interesting but sad comment from that LSE blog: “The Nats have crushed out of me all the pride I once had in being Scottish.”

    If someone has posted that on the LSE blog in a sincere, genuine way, then that would indicate to me that the individual in question had very little pride in being Scottish in the first place. The SNP campaign for Scotland to be an independent state.

    If this causes you so much bitterness that it has literally crushed all the pride you had in being Scottish, then you have to ask yourself if they preferred it when Scottish voters were quiet and passive, and did not make much, if any demand for Home Rule..
    —-

    Yeah, I know a couple of guys like that.
    What seems to be the case is they have a circle of English friends and seem to think that a desire for Scottish home rule or independence might offend them. And it is mixed in with a kind of perceived class issue.

    My English pals laugh at people like that. It all seems slightly pathetic. Deep down, no-one respects a crawler.

  151. Dr Jim says:

    Born in Scotland which is IN the British Isles just as England Wales and Ireland are

    The confusion from many, although not on Wings, is that England is somehow Britain which is of course wrong, England is only England and only represents itself and not even the United Kingdom which it also tends to think it is

    But who’s fault is that?

    Once again it’s the Yoons creating and re-writing geography and history as suits their desires
    It’s the arrogance borne of years of subjugating others to their will, other Nations must be belittled, class war and the invention of myths surrounding people of no particular note
    and idiot politicians calling us one nation, we’re not a netball team

    I don’t think the English are proud to be English so they choose Britishness instead, sounds more bigger and better
    and you wonder why? Nobody raises an eyebrow when the Welsh say they’re Welsh or when they sing all their Welsh tunes
    Could that be because the Welsh aren’t strong enough to be a threat yet, so why do they get annoyed at Scots saying they’re Scots

    You don’t hear Frenchmen or Germans saying they’re European
    they’re whatever they were born as, it’s not a big deal

    But anything that challenges the Imperial Yoon in their mind must be destroyed

  152. Inverclyder says:

    Onwards & muttley79

    There’s a guy I work with who has a very German surname and claims to be German even though everybody knows he’s actually English.

    Interesting conversations and comments at work when discussing whether the ball actually went over the line and the whole history of the easiest path to a World Cup Final in 1966 and all that.

    You could actually see the steam coming out his ears and the blood pressure build as we all agreed that there were dodgy dealings going on!

    Still claims to be German though.

    So even some English people won’t admit to being English.

    Quite bizarre really as we work with a few English folk that don’t act like this.

  153. woosie says:

    Nationalism is only nationalism when championed by Scots. In England, British Nationalism is common sense. Why let Europe dictate to our sovereign nation? Isn’t that exactly what Stywalker of the Empire is crowing about now?

    Britishness would take on a completely different complexion if all the oil, gas, whisky, fresh water, salmon, fishing, etc, etc, was based in England. We’d have been independent a long time ago.

    My nationalism remains.

  154. Robert Louis says:

    Although technically I am British, as I reside on the landmass called Britain, I would never describe myself as British. The reason? Simple, to most folk, especially unionists, Britain is the UK, or even worse England. Of course they are incorrect to think so, but it is what people generally think.

    I was born Scottish and will die Scottish. Never, ever ‘British’.

  155. Papadox says:

    The English establishment use the words UK, GB, BRITAIN, England interchangeably to mask their
    Ttrue meaning or intentions which is usually ENGERLAND IS NUMBER ONE and don’t forget it. Any condescending or disparaging remarks about Scotland are spelled out so there ain’t no mistake as to who is at the top of the pile and who is subservient.

    I am a Scottish nationalist with Celtic ancestors on both sides and very very proud of both.

    NO APPOLOGIES NO EXCUSES JUST PRIDE. nothing against yoons they can find their own pedigree I KNOW MINE! God Bless them

  156. Kirsty says:

    Yep, we’ve all seen the Brit Nat version of nationalism (with a capital N) at work. Of course, we’re also told that’s a perfectly fine form of nationalism to the point that it isn’t nationalism at all. Whilst our wish for greater democracy is a shocking disgrace. It’s just – wow. It won’t be spoken of because it doesn’t fit the rhetoric.

    Anyway, all I would say is the Brit Nat form of nationalism is and always has been a front for neo-feudalism. You know: love your Queen; aristocrats have had 1,000 years of breeding, so let your betters do this job; poor people are poor because they bring it on themselves. Blah, blah. Of course, they also keep all the good stuff for themselves – so where we’d have to have a First Class degree and a PhD to get a job; they can get it without the qualifications, simply because their dad plays golf with the CEO and he asks for a favour (and I’ve seen that happen, so I know it goes on).

    Those same people who got their job thanks to their dad’s golfing habits, will then tell us that the only reason you’re not a rich as them is because we didn’t work hard enough. It’s just embarrassing and disgusting. Sadly, it’s what we’ve all been propagandised to believe since we were born and many people can’t break out of it. I mind reading on Newsnet someone (who was supposedly a Yesser) saying that as long as they had strength in their arm, their would be a queen. :-0 Just shows you how insidious British Nationalism is.

    I don’t agree with the drop in Scottish identification. It’s certainly become harder to state Scottish as your nationality. I’ve applied for a few things recently where Scottish wasn’t even an option. I also know a lot of non-native born Scots (bear in my I’m half Scots myself but I was lucky enough to be born here so no one questions me) that whilst they feel Scottish, and voted Yes, when asked the straight question would give the factual answer that they’re English or whatever.

    I also do, being a whiner, take exception to the ‘fanatic fringe’ comment (and I know you’ve said that’s an external view, Rev). But still, I’m getting on up there now and I worked out for myself at 8 years old that Scotland, being a country, should run herself, so I’ve been around the indy movement for a long time. I’ve never to the best of my knowledge yet painted my face in woad or shouted “Freedom!” Of course, I can’t speak for what I may have done with a drink in me, but I’m pretty certain about that! Give me time though, guys; you may see me yet running down Buchanan Street, bellowing, on a tequila fuelled rant! Live a little, eh?

  157. Petra says:

    I don’t consider myself to be British …. I’m Scottish and a Nationalist.

    (Nationalist – A person who advocates political independence for a country – one who loves and defends his country).

    I’m a Nationalist because I want to live in a democracy whereby the majority of voters elect the ruling political party, at any given time. I want my politicians to serve their country and not themselves. I want a Government that is honest, transparent and open to scrutiny. The House of Commons and more so the House of Lords, Dictatorships, don’t fit the ‘democratic’ bill. Not here or south of the border.

    @ Thepnr says at 5:12 pm ……“He also says on Radio Scotland ‘Scotland’ doesn’t have enough energy to cover it’s needs and is importing power from the rest of the UK 1 day in every 4.”

    Tom Greatrex (labour) (Nuclear Industry Association) is obscuring the reality or just downright lying. Considering that 38% of Scottish production of electricity is from renewables it is just about believable that there will be times when electricity flows from England to Scotland. This however cannot disguise the FACT that Scotland exports around 24% of her electricity production to the rest of the UK ….”

    Thepnr I noticed that Professor John Robertson has reported Jackie Bird not only to the BBC but to Police Scotland too due to her ”accusatory but demonstrably inaccurate and dishonest headline statement and report …. potentially damaging to the electoral prospects of the SNP Government …. please deal with this as soon as possible in order that the above can have only limited effect on the upcoming Scottish elections in May 2016.”

    I wonder if this applies to all media liars or does it depend on who / what they’re lying about? I think I’ll contact Dr Robertson (and others) to get this clarified.

    http://newsnet.scot/?p=116389#comment-605726

  158. Jock McDonnell says:

    I see today’s unionists as different from those of the 50s.
    Today’s unionists & Tories too, are a hardline rump.

    Many of those from the 50s were unionist because they saw that as being in Scotland’s interest, they truly believed that. It was an unquestioned part of the backdrop to society.
    How else to explain the failed home rule Bill of 1914, the covenant, the comments of John Buchan ?

    Until the 50s, the union and the remains of empire then, was like the EU of today. A multi-national, multi-cultural, multilingual club. To be outside it was to be nowhere, they thought. A big family, where each nation was respected. They thought.

    Slowly the penny dropped that all which remained of the empire was a consolidated rump in the home counties, with Scotland the final colony.

    That’s why the Tories have died, their union of 1965 filled with symbolism. All that is left is a corroded bitter carcass.

  159. Robert Peffers says:

    @K1 says: 16 February, 2016 at 2:59 pm:

    “Robert (Peffers) your linked, smallified:”

    http://tinyurl.com/zdyojjn

    Thank you for that, K1. To tell the truth I was not being what the Rev Stu calls, “an Alert Reader”, and was operating on auto pilot. I highlighted, cut and pasted the link before noticing how long it was.

  160. Chris F says:

    Campaigning before the referendum, then the GE last year, I met with the ‘nationalism is evil, therefore the Scottish National Party must be evil’ type of comment a lot.

    I pointed out that the word ‘national’ describes something that is of, or for the nation, i.e., The Scottish National Party is the Party for/of the Scottish nation, just as the National Health Service is the health service for/of the nation.

    After all, surely nobody presumes evil intent when discussing the NHS (‘Oh my God! It must be a health service run by nationalists!’ would rightly be considered ridiculous).

  161. Kirsty says:

    @Robert Peffers

    I just saw a comment you left for me on a previous thread about more power to my keyboard. I just wanted to say thanks for that! I’m never very confident writing comments on here, so that was nice of you; thank you.

    Also, I specialised in constitutional law at university – so I love reading your comments on the constitution. If you ever want to double team someone, give me a shout!

  162. Robert Peffers says:

    @Inverclyder says:16 February, 2016 at 3:02 pm:

    “Some headlines seen recently….

    Banks might leave.
    Huge Job Losses.
    ‘Britain leaving the EU? There’s no plan B’.
    Prince William signals support for Britain staying in the EU.

    Is it Groundhog Referendum Day?

    No, Inverclyder, It’s not, “Groundhog Day”, but I’m getting the distinct feeling that it’s, “Oh! Whit a panic’s in yer breastie day”.

  163. Bob Mack says:

    @yesindyref2,

    Yes ,I realise that you were quoting.

  164. Robert Peffers says:

    @Rev. Stuart Campbell says: 16 February, 2016 at 3:09 pm

    ““It’s English nationalism not British nationlism.”

    It’s really not. That’s a whole separate thing.”

    You may have hit a rather large nail there Rev Stu.

    The worst enemies Scotland has ever had were, with few exceptions, not the English, Welsh or Irish but London Scots.

    These, of course, could not claim to be English and thus they claimed to be British and reluctantly Scottish. I know that throughout my schooldays it was Oxbridge educated Scots who were the ones to come down most hard on those of us who continued to speak our own language.

    I made a point of using a Scots word or phrase during every period of the school day. What got up their noses most of all was that I always came within the top three at English but objected to being forced to use it.

  165. Petra says:

    @ Socrates MacSporran says at 5:04 pm …. ”Living as I do in Ayrshire, aka “Orange County”, I have, since the Referendum campaign began, had some interesting discussions with members of the Orange Order, regarding their vote No, pro Westminster stance …… I further realise there is still a belief among some in the ranks of the OO, to the effect: “Home Rule means Rome Rule”.

    But, the whole ethos of the OO is support for a Protestant Monarchy …….

    Therefore, for the immediate future, even an independent Scotland will have a Protestant Queen or King. So, why does the OO feel it necessary to support the continuation of Westminster rule? Whether Westminster or Holyrood has political control – the monarch will still be a Protestant, and that’s what the OO is supposed to be all about.”

    Socrates I’ve been having discussions with some OO supporters too …. believe it or not one of whom (plus her OO offshoot) is a member of my family … the wife of one of my brothers who died when he was very young.

    Religion IS the name of the game (Home Rule means Rome Rule) and N Irelands (generalising) greatest fear is that the Union will be fractured if Scotland gains her Independence. With ‘fracturing’ they, NI, might get ‘shelved’ by Westminster for one because they definitely get more out of the pot than they put in and they’re more bother than they’re worth … a liability (in their words).

    The thought of being ‘shelved’ and then becoming part of a United Ireland absolutely terrifies them, especially if it involves arms and they have no support from the great protector .. Westminster (drums and flutes wont work).

    At the end of the day they are basically bigots who detest Roman Catholics and making a big deal of the (their) Queen they reckon, in their ignorance, bestows them with some kind of respectability. I’ve got no time for the Queen but I’m sure that she’s fairly respectable and can’t suffer them … if only they knew it.

    As to the Monarchy I think it will end around 2036 with Prince (King) William. My consideration is based on astrology / astrologers opinion which I know is kind of sneered at by some on here, however if it’s correct and that’s what it’s all about for them (Monarchy) they’ve got 20 years max to ‘enjoy’.

  166. CameronB Brodie says:

    Kirsty

    Anyway, all I would say is the Brit Nat form of nationalism is and always has been a front for neo-feudalism. You know: love your Queen; aristocrats have had 1,000 years of breeding, so let your betters do this job; poor people are poor because they bring it on themselves. Blah, blah. Of course, they also keep all the good stuff for themselves – so where we’d have to have a First Class degree and a PhD to get a job; they can get it without the qualifications, simply because their dad plays golf with the CEO and he asks for a favour (and I’ve seen that happen, so I know it goes on).

    That made me think of Young England, the ‘progressive’ Tories lead by Benjamin Disraeli, the originator of “One Nation” Conservatism. Around about the same time the proto-Fabians were beginning to form British socialism. Together, they were able to define “British nationalism’, through such dudes as Viscount Milner for the socialist ingrates, in what might be described as “blood and soil” terms. All based upon classical poetry praising imperial Rome, apparently, as well as fears about Great Britain’s ailing industrial and military power.

    I hear David Cameron has a soft spot for Young England. Also, hardcore neocons want to further restrict access to further education, in a bid to keep the wrong types from getting involved. Easier to maintain a tight ship that way, I suppose.

  167. Robert Peffers says:

    @Chris F says: 16 February, 2016 at 8:37 pm:

    “I pointed out that the word ‘national’ describes something that is of, or for the nation, i.e., The Scottish National Party is the Party for/of the Scottish nation”

    More telling, Chris, is to simly reply that the, “N”, in SNP is the initial letter of, “National”, not of the word, “Nationalist”.

    If they are unable to work out that it means the Party of the Scottish People they are not going to change anyway.

  168. Onwards says:

    Dr Jim says:
    “I don’t think the English are proud to be English so they choose Britishness instead, sounds more bigger and better
    and you wonder why?”

    I think it’s far easier to identify as both English and British.
    Politically they are pretty much one and the same.

    England dominates through sheer weight of numbers, the Parliament and the Monarchy are based in London, and they get a more colourful flag.

    The worst kind of English nationalism and British nationalism are closely connected too. Heavily based on arrogance, the war, and fear of foreigners.

    But there are some great things about England / Britain too in a cultural sense. After independence I think more Scots will be better able to appreciate the best of a partly-shared cultural heritage.. as it becomes disconnected from the unequal political set-up of the UK. That won’t be a threat any more.

  169. Ian M says:

    Excellent topic Rev very well reasoned as usual.
    Talking about people people not wanting to admit their background reminds me of a Canadian Liberal Cabinet minister during question time about car plants and support for them.The cabinet minister was asked a minor “gotcha” question “What type of car does the minister drive” His response was that he couldn’t remember, I kid you not,needless to say he took a worse shellacking for that answer than if he had just told the truth.

  170. Fireproofjim says:

    OT
    On BBC Alba tonight there was a programme about making whisky.
    It was mentioned that whisky pays £1,600,000,000 (£1.6 billion) every year to the exchequer.
    Currently most whisky is exported through Felixstowe and so is recorded as English exports!
    Just think what that could do for us.

  171. muttley79 says:

    @yesindyref2

    I half agree with you, but I did meet genuine people who felt they were being told to choose between being Scottish, or voting NO to stay in the Union.

    Mostly the campaigns got past that, but there was still an element of it and normal people were affected. The official line was that people could be both Scottish and British, but some were left with the idea they had to choose.

    I have sympathy with people who feel like that. However, I don’t have any for people who say they no longer have any pride in being Scottish because of the SNP, or the independence referendum. That is absolute garbage.

  172. Kirsty says:

    CameronB Brodie,

    Mhmm, I don’t know if I’ve got what you meant here but didn’t they put higher rates on the Classics than other subjects at English universities, in terms of fees? I remember thinking that the reason they were trying to price Classics out of our price range is because everything you need to know about what’s going on right now, what’s happened, and what will happen has already been done and it’s there in the study of the classics. And of course, there’s no point in an *ordinary* person learning the Classics – you won’t get a job out of it! I thought that was clever of them – they shut the door on learning about it. Maybe I’m slobbering and you meant something else though!

  173. Meindevon says:

    I’m off to Bath for the day tomorrow…will be keeping my eyes peeled for famous (bearded) faces!

  174. Robert Peffers says:

    @Kirsty says: 16 February, 2016 at 8:42 pm:

    “Also, I specialised in constitutional law at university – so I love reading your comments on the constitution. If you ever want to double team someone, give me a shout!”

    No need for thanks, Kirsty, your comments were well thought out and interesting.

    On the subject of Constitutional Law. It is interesting that as a schoolboy I was a great one for trawling round the many second-hand book shops that used to be plentiful in Edinburgh’s old town.

    On nice days I would retire with my purchases to Greyfrier’s Churchyard to sit and read. It was a most peaceful and quiet place in the busy city. By chance I often shared a bench with an old chap who also always had his nose in a book and after a while we became friends.

    He was a then well known QC, a history buff like myself and a Nationalist. We nationalists were not exactly thick on the ground in those days but there were many real characters about then.

    Speaker’s Corner at the foot of the Mound was a must on Sundays and there were such as Wendy Wood, Canon Kenyon Wright, Willie McRae to be listened to around the city.

    So that’s where I got a good grounding in the real, unvarnished, history of how Scotland came to be in the Union. Having said that my Secondary School History Teacher was a real wonder and I never saw the lady use the Lochgelly Tawse or indeed have the slightest bother holding a large class enthralled with what was always thought to be the driest, and most uninteresting, subject of the curriculum.

    So there you go. Never be shy to post, for your comments are well worth reading.

  175. Thepnr says:

    @Petra

    I’d guess the Monarchy will be finished not long after Scotland becomes Independent. Scotland and in time the rUK will likely become parliamentary democracies rather than constitutional monarchies.

    Isn’t is odd that the UK is considered to be the ultimate constitutional monarchy? Yet we have no constitution.

    Bizarre and something that will no doubt change given time.

  176. muttley79 says:

    @Chris F

    Campaigning before the referendum, then the GE last year, I met with the ‘nationalism is evil, therefore the Scottish National Party must be evil’ type of comment a lot.

    I suspect that you may have encountered more middle class people than working class saying those kinds of things (obviously that is just a guess though!). The SNP have made substantial progress with the working class in Scotland, but there are still fairly large sections of the middle class who are hostile to the SNP, and independence imo. They tend to come out with that kind of thing you have mentioned, another is the SNP is anti-English, they don’t like Salmond, or someone else in the SNP. IMO a lot of it is due to big and small conservatism and British nationalism.

  177. Chic McGregor says:

    nationalist (1):
    One who believes that nation states are a good thing. That the different national perspectives they have and develop represent a way of enhancing the rate of progress of civilization as a whole. Better and faster solutions to international problems are more likely to be found because of the existence and diversity of those perspectives. National perspectives are not fixed but are dynamic entities capable and willing to change and adapt in response to learnings from within or learnings from other nation states.

    All national perspectives are equally valid. While it is true that during certain eras of the history of human civilization some nation states have clearly contributed more than others in other eras it has been a completely different set of national perspectives which have contributed more. It is not possible to predict which will be important in any future era. Nor is it true to say that it is always the large nation states.

    So for the nationalist, diversity in national perspectives should be welcomed and encouraged and any attempt to prevent that resisted.

    Citizens raised within a nation state will understand the moral and ethical benchmarks of the cultural perspective enshrined in his/her nation state’s institutions regardless of their ethnic history.

    The illustrative rules are therefore:

    1) Thankfully, different national/cultural perspectives exist.

    2) All national perspectives have equal intrinsic value. (Even Scottish).

    3) They all have the right to continued existence and development.

    4) Citizens of a nation state, especially those formatively raised there will come to understand the national benchmarks of that state.

    5) Ethnic family background does not effect a citizens ability to become a fully participating member of their nation state.

    6) There is no desire to change any other nation state or interfere with its development.

    7) The actions of any state trying to interfere with another (imperialism) will be resisted.

    nationalist (2):
    One who believes in his nation’s superiority to all others. Other nation states are therefore less fortunate and an attempt should be made to correct the error of their ways. Occasionally, that may involve direct intervention for their own good (imperialism). Eventually it is to be hoped that all errant and deviant nation states undergo a successful correction.

    The illustrative rules are therefore:

    1) Unfortunately, different national/cultural perspectives exist.

    2) All other national perspectives are just plain wrong and inferior.

    3) It is our duty to correct their deviant ways.

    4) Citizens of a nation state, should be made to understand and accept our national benchmarks and cultural perspective.

    5) Ethnic family background may effect a foreigner’s ability to become a fully participating member of our nation state.

    6) If they are unsaveable then bombing or other drastic means may be required.

    7) Eventually all will appreciate that the imperial measures undertaken were necessary for their own good and the world will prosper under the one cultural/national perspective – ours.

  178. Thepnr says:

    @Meindevon

    “will be keeping my eyes peeled for famous (bearded) faces!”

    Mind and check all the pet and sweetie shops, chinese takeaways too and if that fails check the pubs. Last resort look in the library 🙂

  179. Onwards says:

    ScottishPsyche says:
    16 February, 2016 at 7:12 pm

    ..
    The group for whom the ‘cringe’ seems the strongest – the Muriels – seem even more anxious. As if they would lose their vicarious sophistication by being just Scottish.

    —-

    lol, “the Muriels”

    She might not get invited round for tea at Rowling’s any more.

  180. Grouse Beater says:

    Rowling?
    Hassled by trolls?
    Learn how to identify and dismiss them without guilt:

    http://wp.me/p4fd9j-3Tl

  181. yesindyref2 says:

    @Bob Mack
    No worries. Da(r)ned if I’m getting tarred with the wrong brush, it’s bad enough having to fend off attempts to tar me with any brush arguing with NO / anti-SNP advocates.

    Fortunately I’ve been interested in space for decades so I have non-stick technology.

  182. Dave McEwan Hill says:

    Having difficulty understanding who and what the article is talking about
    “Small nationalist fringe” that was already the government of Scotland?
    “fanatic fringe”. Who? Where? Is there some mistaken identity there. Are we talking about more than a generation of SNP leaders of impeccable behaviour who faced up to a lying, distorting, dishonest UK establishment and media and got a mandate for a referendum?

  183. yesindyref2 says:

    @Kirsty
    I guess you known about the Scottish Constitutional Futures Forum? Some great papers, from “neutral” to either side.

    http://www.scottishconstitutionalfutures.org/

  184. CameronB Brodie says:

    Kirsty
    Sorry if I was confusing. My reference to classics was an observation as to the source material modern Britain was founded on. Classical literature, mostly proclaiming fears of a decaying empire and the communistic tenancies of the unwashed. This was before any of the social sciences had been invented. Anyhoo, plans were put in place by those concerned, aimed at mobilising British nationalism’s mass appeal, thereby hopefully avoiding Rome’s destiny. All very proto-fascist really.

    Though the demise of UKOK plc. will be less cataclysmic than the collapse of Rome, I’m sure some of the Establishment might hold a different view.

    My reference to the neocons and access to further education? Well they’re neo-fascists, what other reason needed? Now, how do you tell a neocon and a Thatcherite apart? Honest question.

  185. Petra says:

    O/T

    @ boris says at 4:27 pm ….

    http://caltonjock.com/2016/02/15/labour-party-in-fighting-gets-serious-progress-blairites-leaning-right-momentum-corbynites-leaning-left/

    Momentum? Interesting Boris …

    ‘Corbyn hardcore plotting to deselect Labour moderates.’

    ‘Key organisers in Momentum, the new Jeremy Corbyn supporters’ group inside the Labour Party, are explicitly plotting “civil war” to get rid of moderate Labour MPs, despite repeated denials, a Telegraph investigation has found. Leaders of Momentum include, self-proclaimed revolutionary Marxists, and paid staff of parties which oppose Labour, including a man who was until five weeks ago official spokesman for a Green MEP….

    Concerted efforts have begun to get moderate Labour incumbents pushed down the rankings of the party’s candidates for next year’s Welsh and Scottish elections, putting them at great risk of losing their seats. Momentum has harvested thousands of confidential personal records of Labour members, including their private emails and telephone numbers, and is already using them to operate phone-banks, it can be disclosed. The tactic has caused a major row, with Momentum’s opponents claiming it is illegal under data protection laws.”

    …………………..

    I read something recently about Alex Salmond saying that if the UK pulls out of the EU it’ll have to leave NATO. I can’t find it now. Has anyone else come across this?

  186. yesindyref2 says:

    @Kirsty
    Sorry, forgot to say that the articles archive is under the “Opinion and Analysis” tab. Two of the contributors are Aileen McHarg and Christine Bell, both of whom started in 2012 as neutral, but moved to YES later on.

    I suspect anyone from Scotland who gets an understanding of the constitutional situations Scotland V UK as it were, would have difficlty resisting. Same for the underlying economy.

  187. Meindevon says:

    @Thepnr

    Good thinking! Although personally I might start in the pubs and finish in the pet shops! ?

  188. Tam Jardine says:

    I wonder if this piece will gain any traction. My friends who voted yes and in many cases lent their vote to the SNP in May do not fit any description of ‘nationalist’. They are all internationalists.

    It is good to read something emerge from London that is thought through. There has been more drivel written in the press about the Yes movement and the SNP than anything else in decades as far as I can tell.

    I suppose I am what the press would like to term a Nationalist. They can call me what they like.

    My distillation of the woeful population growth experienced by Scotland is thus: between 1950 and 2000 Scotland had the 2nd worst rate of population growth in the entire world, out of 230 countries or territories.

    The only country which performed worse during that 50 year period was the remote island of Montserrat. If we discount 1995-2000 (the period during which over half the island was evacuated and laid barren by volcanic eruption) Scotland improves by one place in the league table but actually the gap in growth between Scotland and Montserrat narrows.

    So in response to the Better Together message, or when we are accused of being nationalists lets remember that in terms of population growth in the second half of the 20th century the only territory on earth that suffered worse overall depopulation over 50 years was an island the size of Rum in the Caribbean which suffered during that period from 2 natural disasters of a scale we can barely imagine. Before the volcano erupted in 1989 Hurricane Hugo left 90% (11,000) of the islanders homeless.

    Am I a nationalist? I think it would be more accurate, with the prospect of continued Westminster control of our country, to describe us all as survivalists.

  189. The problem with those Scot`s proclaiming Britishness is that the English are shifting away from being seen as British and are now embracing their own English nationalism,

    I wonder how many English, since the Ref, if asked now see them selves as English instead of British,

    what happens to the Yoons when the English decide to be English not British?

  190. Mark Fletcher says:

    Judging by where my mother and father came from, I am half Saxon and half Pict. I have no problem at all identifying myself as British – it’s a geographical fact. I possess – for just now -a United Kingdom passport. I am also equally Scots, by place of birth, education, work, domicile and political leanings. I support independence for Scotland heart and head. I look forward to a Scottish future and will show no nostalgia for the Unionist past. I’m proud of our Scottish institutions and Scottishness (though there are aspects of Scottish culture that we might all be better off without) I therefore reject Anglicisation. England has always felt foreign to me but I am perfectly at home in continental Europe. Culturally, I feel European. In Europe, I insist that I am a Scot, British certainly but certainly not English (though it can be difficult trying to persuade people that England and Britain are not the same or that Scotland is merely a region of England). I’m insistent but relaxed about national identity. I don’t see myself as any kind of nationalist. I don’t see any point or merit in getting steamed up about it.

  191. Grouse Beater says:

    My humble post office First and Second class stamp books now come with a portrait of the Queen, together with the exaltation: “Happy and Glorious” in Georgian script.

    ‘Every little counts’, and some tax hoarding superstore says ..

  192. dakk says:

    There are a very significant number of Scots who are closet English Nationalists.

    For that not to be the case someone will have to explain to me why so many Scots are so protective of England.

    We’ve all become inured to the old refrains ‘But why do we only charge the English students fees ?’,or ‘It’s not fair England pays for prescriptions and we dont’… etc.

    No mention ever of Welsh or Northern Irish in their outrage.In other words we don’t give a shit about Scotland Wales or NI.Only England matters.

    Of course they would never admit to it but I can smell the English wannabe in them a mile off.

    So,it is my belief that many Scots whom we may call BritNats are actually wet fart English Nationalists who can’t admit to the fact.

  193. Brian Doonthetoon says:

    OOH, Mark Fletcher!

    You’re one of them thaar ‘Danger Seekers’, iye? Appreciated your post – but you forgot the golden rule,

    Include paragraph breaks or I WILL KILL YOU WITH HAMMERS.

    8=)

  194. Chic McGregor says:

    @dakk
    “There are a very significant number of Scots who are closet English Nationalists.”

    Not so sure about the very significant there but there are certainly some who would like, forlornly I suspect, to be accepted as English/British=English.

    But that is hardly surprising given the incessant Scottish culture BAAAD English culture GOOOOD propaganda we get on a daily basis, is it?

    However, rather than countering that, as some might be tempted to do, by espousing the opposite mantra Scottish culture GOOOOD English culture BAAAD I would suggest it better the circle is broken by espousing English culture GOOOD, Scottish culture GOOOD and indeed French culture GOOOD, Italian culture GOOOD, Norwegian culture Goood, Irish culture GOOOD etc. ad infinitum.

    Ultimately that message will get through and the wrongness of imperial machination exposed.

  195. Taranaich says:

    @galamcennalath: An analogy perhaps? Saying you are a nationalist can be a bit like saying you are a witch. Then, as folks reach for the kindling and matches you have to proclaim, “not THAT type of witch, I’m one of the wholesome ones wishing only goodness and light”

    The fault lies in society for assuming the worst. The demonisation of nationalism is no mistake: it is another tool of control and suppression by a larger power against a smaller neighbour it aims to subsume. We saw it in India, Afghanistan, Africa, the Americas, as various British and Portuguese and Spanish and French Empires tried to suppress self-determination under the guise of “civilising” the indigenous tribes; we see this going on right now with the South Ossetians, Georgians, Taiwan, Kurdistan.

    I understand that to many, “nationalism” is a bad word for a bad thing. But I think that in itself is a significant barrier still lying in the way of achieving independence: a core number of voters are still scared by the spectre of evils done in nationalism’s name (yet curiously little is said of the evils done in socialism’s name).

    @Robert Peffers: Nah! Taranaich! I’ve never come across such a thing as evil nationalism. What I have come across is evil criminals who called themselves nationalists but who were diametrically the opposite of nationalists.

    Well, as I said, nationalism is inherently neutral: perhaps I should’ve said “Nationalism, at its core, is neutral: the actions done in its name are good or evil.”)

    @galamcennalath: He makes the point more vividly than I.

    The words nationalism and nationalist, if intended to be used in the civic sense, need so much explanation and caveat for most situations that it just isn’t worth the effort.

    Again, I disagree: it’s only as complicated as you want it to be. Independence is the normal state of nearly every country in the world. If you think Scottish Nationalism is inherently ethno-fascism, then what does that say about every other country which is independent right now?

  196. dakk says:

    Chic McGregor 11.45

    ‘But that is hardly surprising given the incessant Scottish culture BAAAD English culture GOOOOD propaganda we get on a daily basis, is it?’

    Ye that’s what we’re up against alright and sadly many are not even aware they’ve been affected.In fact Scots are by no means the only ones smitten.I know quite a few people of other nationalities who have bought into it.

    They didn’t control 2/3rds of the globe without being masters of projecting a superior image of themselves.

    To be fair,I haven’t heard much bad mouthing of English culture on here or anywhere,which is quite revealing and positive.

    Only justified outrage at the ‘Imperial machinations’you allude to.

  197. Kirsty says:

    Yesindyref2

    Thanks for that. Yes, I’m aware of the papers and the wider conversation that’s going on. There are a lot of interesting thing happening just now.

    I don’t like to speak up about the law, to be honest. Mostly, because a lot of people have a very deep distrust and dislike of lawyers (I can’t blame them, really). I’ve always worried I’d annoy people if I spoke up about the legal position on matters, so I’ve bitten my tongue and stilled my hands so to speak many times because I don’t want to alienate or irritate people. I love the law obviously, and I love discussing it but (and I hope no one takes this as patronising, because I really mean it) what I’ve really loved the most about the ref and after, is seeing non-legally trained people look into the law (for maybe the first time), wade through all the legalese and crap and come to their own conclusions. More often than not they’re absolutely right.

  198. Chic McGregor says:

    In my last post, I tried to give both the most benevolent and most belligerent definition of ‘nationalist’. I leave it to the individual to decide which one Scottish nationalism is closest to and which one British nationalism is closest to.

    However, it is a curious quirk of the English language, is it not, that the very same word can come to mean two things which are the exact opposite of each other?

    The nearest equivalent in terms of linguistic perversity I can think of, is actually the reverse scenario where the words ‘flammable’ and ‘inflammable’, which should be opposites, actually mean the same thing.

  199. Chic McGregor says:

    Err that should have been in my 2nd last post. Forgot I had resonded to Dakk. Sos.

  200. Chic McGregor says:

    @Dakk
    Yes, to be fair, there is little English BAAAD on here and quite rightly. Not only for the strategic reasons iterated but simply because there are a lot worse examples we could have as neighbours. The ordinary English people are generally civilized and fair-minded even if some of their ruling elite are not.

  201. Thepnr says:

    @Chic McGregor

    I think you have put up some very good posts tonight both here and on the last thread. Wings needs the likes of you Chic and that’s for sure.

    Anyway I wanted to query your assertion that flammable and inflammable meant the same thing? Not to me they don’t though I haven’t bothered looking it up on Google LOL.

    They are opposites ass far as I knew, I expect to be enlightened.

  202. Chic McGregor says:

    Thanks Thepnr

    Although I think you will find both ‘inflammable’ and ‘flammable’ mean ‘easily set on fire’. 🙂

  203. yesindyref2 says:

    @Kirsty
    I’m lucky I’ve socialised a bit with some solicitors over the years, not recently right enough. I guess I see both sides. I’ve also as a business had to read EU Directives and then the corresponding Law, because even “official” guidance seemed to be unreasonable on a particular point, and so it was once I read the Act itself. I’ve also read for another reason some length judgements and was very struck how they addressed all the arguments and went through them with complete logic. Anyway! I presume you know about Lallands Peat Worrier who has interesting articles.

    During the Ref I got to think about the Claim of Right, but that kind of moved on to Constitution. I’ve come to the conclusion that if there was a move to get a full written Constitution for Scotland it would inevitably lead to Independence, as only that way could we have a full People’s Constitution, the claimed sovereignty of the UK Parliament would get in the way. It could be done in parallel with all other routes to Independence.

    But in addition to that it would inevitably lead to a reform of the ancient and outdated Law system, and give everyone in Scotland access to Law and Justice, regardless of wealth. Which would be expensive to start with, hundreds of millions, but might in time lead to savings! Ho hum.

    Ah well, back to reality!

  204. Thepnr says:

    @Chic McGregor

    Hahaha, thanks Chic another myth busted. I did check of course and was amazed that they both mean exactly the same. Most surely believe they have opposite meanings but they don’t!

    Whats the point of these two words? Bet you can’t tell me that LOL.

  205. yesindyref2 says:

    @Kirsty
    One last thing. A headline in the Herald: “Indycampers may face financial ruin as Holyrood set sights on legal costs claim”

    From what I understand they have a case to make. But looking at this they could have to pay massive costs from the other side. Well, that’s wrong – as in the case of the Orkney four, they should be able to get a judgement. That’s what got me thinking again about all this.

  206. Chic McGregor says:

    @Thepnr

    No more than I can explain the two opposite meanings of ‘nationalist’.

  207. Liz g says:

    Kirsty @ 12.47
    Please speak up as you noticed one of the great things about the Ref was people checking out what the Law actually said/ment.
    We all are likely to be embarking on a journey to frame a new Constution so the more we are informed the better.
    I can’t see anyone on this site getting upset by having facts or informed opinion posted.
    Forgetting paragraph break’s….. Now that’s a different matter.

  208. Thepnr says:

    @Chic McGregor

    Point made, gets it now.

  209. Cherry says:

    Thepnr
    Hi I think flammable means …Will burst into flames. Inflammable means it will really really burst into more flames. 😉

  210. Iain says:

    I agree with Tam Jardine at 10.59
    Under this Tory regime.
    We are all survivalist.

  211. Iain says:

    I agree with Tam Jardine at 10.59
    Under this Tory regime.
    We are all survivalists.

  212. Ghillie says:

    I am a Scottish nationalist.

    But I definitly do not have a fanatical fringe!

  213. Petra says:

    @ Kirsty says at 12:47 am …. ”I don’t like to speak up about the law, to be honest. Mostly, because a lot of people have a very deep distrust and dislike of lawyers (I can’t blame them, really). I’ve always worried I’d annoy people if I spoke up about the legal position on matters, so I’ve bitten my tongue and stilled my hands so to speak many times because I don’t want to alienate or irritate people. I love the law obviously, and I love discussing it but (and I hope no one takes this as patronising, because I really mean it) what I’ve really loved the most about the ref and after, is seeing non-legally trained people look into the law (for maybe the first time), wade through all the legalese and crap and come to their own conclusions. More often than not they’re absolutely right.”

    Kirsty I don’t know if you’re new to this site as people come, go, come back again and so on. Difficult to keep up! If you are new to the site – WELCOME.

    Most people like myself visit this site in an attempt to educate ourselves with a view to hopefully finding ourselves better equipped to enlighten others. Your Legal expertise will be GREATLY appreciated on here especially if you can explain issues in a way that people like myself can understand. Duh! You (your contribution on here) definitely wont ‘alienate or irritate people’ at all Kirsty, far from it I’m sure.

    As to ”biting your tongue and stilling your hands’ I don’t know how you’ve managed to do it. Reading through posts and having to stay ‘stum’ must have been SO, SO frustrating for you. However your ‘sentence’ is over now so you can start tap, tap, tapping away.

  214. Macart says:

    @Kirsty 12.47

    Hullo and welcome Kirsty (waves). 🙂

    If you have an insight don’t be afraid to share. Its how we learn and there’s nothing wrong with acquiring a bit of knowledge and making the odd friend.

  215. Lollysmum says:

    Think you’ll find that Kirsty has been here for quite a while 🙂 just an infrequent poster.

  216. Petra says:

    Wee Ginger Dug: ‘A shopping trolley steered by a drunk’………………….

    ”Incidentally, on Tuesday a Daily Record journalist was claiming on Twitter that it was untrue to say that the Daily Record campaigned for a No vote during the Scottish independence referendum ……

    You can tell that the campaign to remain in the EU is getting desperate. While we had to wait for the Scottish referendum campaign to get well underway before we witnessed repeated interventions for the very first time from Gordosaurus northbritannicus ….

    Equally, we were well into the Scottish referendum campaign before we got a carefully orchestrated intervention from Liz Windsor ….

    This week we’ve already seen the prematurely balding remain campaign rope her apolitical grandson into their efforts in an intervention that was as transparently staged as Donald Trump’s comb-over ….

    We might even see a result where there’s a slight majority in the UK as a whole for remaining, but a slight majority for leaving in England. England would be kept in the EU thanks to Scottish votes. Whaur’s yer English votes fur English laws noo eh? If that were to happen the demand from the Europhobic English right to evict Scotland from the UK will be overwhelming ….

    As the wheels come off Cameron’s renegotiations and the remain campaign wanders around out of control like a shopping trolley steered by a drunk, there’s going to be many more dramatic interventions for the very first time, carefully staged to look spontaneous. The stakes are very high ….”

    https://weegingerdug.wordpress.com/

  217. Petra says:

    @ Lollysmum says at 7:51 am … ”Think you’ll find that Kirsty has been here for quite a while 🙂 just an infrequent poster.”

    Thanks for that Lollysmum. I’m glad now that I worded my post in the way that I did, as I wasn’t too sure either way. It’s hard to keep up at times and know who is who!

  218. jockmcx says:

    Is’nt lollysmum great,yeeeeeeeeeeeeaaaaaah.

  219. Petra says:

    Great posts Nana. Too bad we’ve moved on again!

    I see the price of oil is on the ‘up’! Brilliant.

    …………………………….

    I read the Jimmy Saville ‘diary of the poor suicide girl’ article. Do you remember seeing a video of him with his hand on that young teenager’s breast not long before she committed suicide? God only knows how much havoc and misery that monster has wrought in his lifetime.

    …………………………….

    And ‘British nationalists warned against “illegal” intimidation of councillors.’

    FGS these morons, Unionist group Regimental Blues (delusions of grandeur?), are getting carried away with themselves. They should be identified ASAP, picked up and locked up.

    And I thought they adored the Monarchy? I think not it’s all about their hatred of Roman Catholics … ‘Home Rule not Rome Rule’… fear of having a United Ireland. …. ‘In 2014 the household of Queen Elizabeth, head of the British royal family, confirmed they would support the 2016 anniversary of the rising.’

    And how come all we’ve been hearing about from the SCUM is nasty ‘Cybernat’ stories? Why haven’t these been reported more widely? Absolutely horrendous! …. ”In January an online football group ‘Bears Fight Back’ targeted journalists, and warned: “If you lose your business, your money, your home, your husband or wife, your children or your freedom, don’t say you weren’t warned! …. Dozens of threats from loyalists were previously recorded by the National Union of Journalists in Scotland.”

    ‘Personal details of North Lanarkshire councillors posted online for targeting by Loyalists:

    ANY INTIMIDATION by British nationalists towards North Lanarkshire councillors will be reported to Police Scotland, a spokesperson has confirmed, following boiling tensions over the flying of the Irish national flag.

    The council intervened to warn nationalist campaigners after the personal addresses and mobile numbers of seven Labour and SNP councillors were posted online by British nationalists.

    Unionist group Regimental Blues launched a campaign of “targeting councillor surgeries and council offices as part of our street campaign”, warning councillors that it would monitor “every meeting you sit in, every vote you cast and every move you make” if they failed to back down over plans to commemorate the Irish Easter Rising of 1916 ….

    “While any person or group is entitled to make their views known to elected members, any such action must be within the law and our colleagues at Police Scotland will deal with any illegal action appropriately.” North Lanarkshire Council spokesperson …..

    The Herald has since reported that Labour, which forms the largest group on the council, plans to remove support for the flag ceremony following the threats. However, the targeting of individual councillors has made the SNP more likely to vote in favour.

    Irish Republican group Cairde na hEireann successfully proposed the flying of the flag in April from council buildings to mark 100 years since the armed uprising that took place in Dublin. The violence, in opposition to British rule in Ireland, included Edinburgh born socialist James Connolly, who was executed following the rising.

    In 2014 the household of Queen Elizabeth, head of the British royal family, confirmed they would support the 2016 anniversary of the rising.

    The clash follows high profile police investigations surrounding British nationalist extremists …

    In January an online football group ‘Bears Fight Back’ targeted journalists, and warned: “If you lose your business, your money, your home, your husband or wife, your children or your freedom, don’t say you weren’t warned!”

    Dozens of threats from loyalists were previously recorded by the National Union of Journalists in Scotland ….’

    http://www.commonspace.scot/articles/3476/british-nationalists-warned-against-illegal-intimidation-of-councillors

  220. Nana says:

    @Petra

    Yes Petra I do remember seeing that video.

    I have many links re the csa ‘inquiry’ Some go back a long way but I feel some stuff is way too much info for this forum.

    If you have time go to the Coleman experience for many links. A particular ‘comedian’ in the news lately for running away from twitter was mentioned yesterday.

  221. Nana says:

    O/T

    Fiscal framework needs a 5yr safety net according to a tory list mp. Is that not admitting the framework is a trap.

    http://archive.is/sbiNb

  222. HaggisHunter says:

    During the last election, some of the posh farmers were putting up signs saying ‘unionist must unite’.
    The non posh farmers were laughing at this display of passionate / extremist unionism. That’s in the north east, where Loyalists are a strange and foreign concept, infact they are weirdos.

  223. Petra says:

    @ Nana says at 9:28 am …. ”Petra .. Yes Petra I do remember seeing that video. I have many links re the csa ‘inquiry’ Some go back a long way but I feel some stuff is way too much info for this forum. If you have time go to the Coleman experience for many links. A particular ‘comedian’ in the news lately for running away from twitter was mentioned yesterday.”

    Yeah I know exactly who you’re talking about Nana and I’ve ‘archived’ data from Coleman and a number of other sites too. Like you I’ve got a massive list of information re. paedophiles (celebrities, politicians and so on) that I couldn’t possibly post on here as it would make your hair stand on end (probably get sued too). I’ve also constructed a list of over 40 (lesser known) Labour politicians / Councillors that have actually been charged with paedophilia. Then there’s the Tories and Lib-dems!

    The Better Together Union! Not if you’re a kid, that’s for sure. Additionally I can’t understand why 50 Million plus English people are putting up with it.

    …………………………

    Nana: Fiscal framework needs a 5yr safety net according to a tory list mp. Is that not admitting the framework is a trap.

    http://archive.is/sbiNb

    Of course it’s a trap with wee Ruthie pretending to help the ‘no detriment’ issue along. More like covering her and the Tories back to get through the EU ref and then onto the next election … one that they’ll no doubt win and then it’ll be …. SLASH the block grant now.

  224. Chris F says:

    Robert Peffers says
    ‘More telling, Chris, is to simly reply that the, “N”, in SNP is the initial letter of, “National”, not of the word, “Nationalist”.’

    Oh, yes – I do that too! 🙂

  225. K1 says:

    Yeah, those Americans are a right bunch of nationalists and they’ve never ever had to fight for Independence or anything!

  226. Bob Millar says:

    Re Chris F
    Perhaps the S.N.P. should rebrand as the Scottish Normality Party. Although that would still leave a few in Scotland believing they live in a normal country.

  227. brian watters says:

    i remember well the first time i heard a “unionist” tell me with great sincerity that the SNP were just Catholic Tories. I nearly spat out my chips and of course enquired how he came to this startling conclusion considering that the SNP’s traditional base of support is nowhere near Glasgow or the West where traditionally there is a larger proportion of Catholic Scots. I also pointed out that there was a great tradition within the Labour party of people of Irish catholic origins and historically they have been great champions of the poor and working classes. Im pretty sure the SNP do not even ask what foot a person kicks with or what school they went to.
    Of course none of my logical questioning or statements cut much ice with said Unionist. The scenario being peddled by Unionists of this ilk and swallowed hook line and sinker by thousands is that Scottish nationalism is just a “Papist” Irish republican front designed to destabilize Britain from within so that Ulster can be stolen.
    If only we’d known this 50 years ago ~!!!

  228. Stuart Clark says:

    “I think it may well be that the referendum has hardened the attitudes of those who voted No and now actually see themselves as choosing British as their nationality. I imagine it has also left a lot of people who were unsure which way to turn deciding to stay in the what they perceive to be the middle ground.”

    I would agree with that , that seems to be what has happened , as many have mentioned the results in 2011 , and now 5 years later , show increased support for “Britishness”

    Its as if by forcing people to vote either or , they forced them to think of their identity .



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