The less-deserving pro-independence website

Wings Over Scotland


Local colours

Posted on February 15, 2017 by

Just for fun.

ndyball

(The combined figure for all football fans, incidentally, is Yes 52% No 48%.)

Print Friendly

    1 Trackbacks/Pingbacks

    1. 15 02 17 19:58

      Local colours | speymouth

    134 to “Local colours”

    1. Ian McCubbin says:

      Not surprised. The main group to watch for trouble at any indyref w would be Rangers linked to Orange lodge.
      Most likely group to have Yoon infiltration of any kind.

    2. handclapping says:

      Soccer is beneath me; I vote No

    3. defo says:

      Only 63% ?
      So it’s true then. They’re not all bawbags.

    4. The Tories used to use the LOL until about the 50’s

      Labour now uses both sides against the middle and are more despicable with it.

    5. Thepnr says:

      I’m glad to see that 37% of Rangers supporters do favour a Yes vote. There not all covered in Union Jacks in fact those that say they don’t support any team are almost as likely to vote NO.

      They’ll be the women then.

    6. SonofAGunn says:

      Some (understandably) shy rangers fans in the “Don’t support” grouping I think!

    7. Hazelwoods says:

      I loved that question when I found it on the survey.

      Had I not already twigged that it was a Wings survey that would have done it for me 🙂

      Well done Rev!!

    8. O/T

      I note STV have taken to using anonymous and completely unknown Tory and Labour MSPs to comment on topical and local issues.
      One would have thought that in a news item from any area the elected local MSP would be the one contacted to comment.

    9. Croompenstein says:

      I take it this was before the Magic Hat ‘resigned’ 🙂

    10. Stormchase_King says:

      Just wondering about correlations with ML3 7xx .

    11. Joseph Simpson says:

      Football supporters are a minority issue in the Indy agenda. My reading of the last results suggests that No drew its main support from older citizens, women, the wealthy, EU residents and UK residents not born in Scotland. I suspect we will have EU residents lining up to vote YES next time round (so the more the merrier – for this and other reasons). Time will impact on the elderly No numbers, but maybe not in time for the next referendum. The question is how we do persuade the elderly, women and Non Scottish UK residents? I suspect we are wasting our breath on the wealthy.

    12. Thepnr says:

      Just in case anyone failed to notice 547 of the 1028 respondents said they didn’t support any team. That’ll be the women then 🙂

    13. schrodingers cat says:

      but but but, do all the other clubs you mentioned include sevco?

      Ill get ma jaiket

    14. Craig says:

      I have 3 friends who support Rangers and they voted YES and my sister’s fiance who is also a season ticket holder at Ibrox is also a YES voter so it’s not too much of a shock to see that 37% of Rangers supporters would say YES.

      I am a Celtic fan and I am not overly surprised to see that 29% of my fellow supporters are NO voters.

      It does show to a certain extent that football allegiance doesn’t really affect voting intentions.

    15. Rev. Stuart Campbell says:

      “It does show to a certain extent that football allegiance doesn’t really affect voting intentions.”

      Um, it seems to affect it quite a lot, albeit that it only proves correlation rather than causation. For two demographically-similar groups in the same city to be 71-29 and 37-63 is quite a gulf to explain any other way. That’s a 68-point gap, man. Almost as many as will be between them at the end of the season.

    16. handclapping says:

      If its clubs in the same city we need the figures for Dundee, also Yes, and Edinburgh, No, too

    17. galamcennalath says:

      The Rangers Celtic thing is no surprise.

      However, of those with no interest (like myself) in football …

      NO 59%
      YES 41%

      … seems odd.

      Women are more likely to be NO. Do women tend to not support compared to men? I don’t know.

      Older people are more likely to be NO. In my mind, people used to support more in the past. I would have though older people more interested in football.

      So what skews it?

    18. chooseindyref2 says:

      Are Aberdeen supporters predominately unionist?

    19. Hamish100 says:

      Can you do one for Hibs V Hearts

      Partick Thistle v Clyde

      Berwick Rangers v….

      Aberdeen v Peterhead

      The Dundee’s

      etcetera . Non football fans include St Mirren.

    20. HandandShrimp says:

      On the positive side I would say that the Unionist contingent of Rangers support are irreconcilable to independence. Therefore to see nearly 40% would vote Yes is heartwarming. I think that is likely one of our hardest broad demographics to sell to.

    21. Vestas says:

      Interesting the way the “I don’t support (football I presume?)” answer breaks.

      59-41 for No on slightly more than 50% of the sample when asked that question is a bit of an outlier mmm?

      Maybe most people are just pissed off with being asked about two Glasgow football teams defined by hundreds of years of sectarianism/discrimination? One is still more defined by that than the other for sure in the last 30 years, but its 6 of 1, half dozen of the other in terms of fans before that.

      There is no sane way to explain Celtic/Rangers-Sevco-whatever lunacy to people outside the central belt, never mind outside Scotland.

      Stu – if you don’t already have the requisite datasets for this poll then maybe next time ask the same question along with region of Scotland. It’d be interesting to see the data.

    22. Iain More says:

      So the spurious grubby pollster in order to get a thumping No vote has included those who don’t actually support football. Effin grubby pollsters!

      The question not asked is how many of those Rangers Supporters asked to give an opinion were actually born in Scotland. The ones round my way were and they all voted Yes.

    23. Dr Jim says:

      Tell them they wont get European football after Brexit and watch those numbers change Tee Hee
      Could it mean they’ll be at the back of the ListQueue behind Bosnia and Herzogovina coz both of their National team is great I hear
      Much better than Sweatland the Cringers which’ll have to be the new name for what used to be Scotland the Brave

      Vote No and get laughed at and mocked even louder than England by the rest of the world

    24. Joemcg says:

      Has anyone or do they know of anyone who managed to get a ticket for QT Glasgow tomorrow? I didn’t get in and I’ve not heard of anybody else either. Yet another stitch up?

    25. Joemcg says:

      Participants are John Swinney, Fluffy, Val McDermid, Shami Chakrabarti and Mark Littlewood.

    26. defo says:

      “So the spurious grubby pollster…”

      I suppose that’s a step up from death threats Stu. 😉

    27. manandboy says:

      Vestas, in the history of Celtic Football Club, there is no evidence of sectarianism as an aspect of Club policy, and as for the fans, there is little if anything to suggest Celtic supporters are any different.

    28. starlaw says:

      Friends in Australia tell me Scotland is their country but their kids are Australian.

      English people faced with the choice will choose what they deem to be best for their children. A Scotland in the safety of the EU or pot luck with England, whose future is in the lap of the Gods, and a whole lot more will be learned before a vote is cast.

    29. Vestas says:

      I suspect the 59-41 “No” in the “I don’t support football” category is the “womens’ vote” and the “old folks” skewing things but I have no evidence of that.

      I dunno how commissioning polls works – do you get the raw data back as well as all the tweaks for under/over-represented groups?

      If you get the raw data then it ought to be possible to work out who/where and maybe why there’s a massive (is 20 points) change in that demographic.

    30. Gary45% says:

      Ranger “s” does that s stand for Sevco? or is it Serpico?
      Are they still selling Warburtons at the Ibrox Asda?

    31. Vestas says:

      @ manandboy 7:33pm :

      I’m well aware of Celtic’s history – I support them and remember watching Paul McStay as a 14 year old in remote places like Lewis in the 1980s when the Celtic under-16 team toured. Credentials established mmm?

      What I mean is that the vast majority of Scots don’t like being defined by two teams in one city who have religion involved. People get REALLY fucked off with being asked “Do you support Celtic or Rangers?” when someone identifies a Scottish accent abroad.

    32. galamcennalath says:

      This is a good read. How shite could Brexit get?

      This is one of the few times I seen clarity about the discrete phases which will apply …

      “OK, so what does Article 50 involve?

      There are three basic parts: the divorce, the transition deal and the final deal.”

      http://www.politics.co.uk/blogs/2017/02/15/everything-you-need-to-know-about-article-50-in-five-minutes

    33. Iain More says:

      defo says:
      15 February, 2017 at 7:31 pm

      “I suppose that’s a step up from death threats Stu.”

      I couldn’t resist the dig since one of my Dons supporting neighbours voted Naw. Well that and the general disdain I have for any Opinion Poll.

      The question not asked either is how many of the respondents have Season Tickets. Rich Naw bags no doubt. I cant afford the Season Ticket at Pittodrie anymore.

    34. harry mcaye says:

      Love that the team options included “Rangers” and not just Rangers. That could have pissed off a few or was it done over the phone?

      What do the figures in brackets signify?

    35. Lochside says:

      The Celtic ‘Yes’ support does not surprise me…there has been a sea change in the past twenty years from paying lip service to ‘Irish’ republicanism to a Scottish identity amongst the support. Back in the day I spent many a fruitless hour trying to persuade ‘Tic fans to consider the absurdity of supporting one but not the other…particularly when many were third or fourth generation Scots. The odd fact is that back then Rangers fans were partisan Scotland fans and made up a large percentage of the original working class Tartan Army. However, their schizophrenia showed itself even then…singing ‘God Save the Queen’ at the Cup Final one week and a fortnight later booing it against England in the Home International. Methinks sectarianism is still the driver with the 60% ‘NO’ voters and their blind loyalty to a foreign Royal family of German descent……P.S. I support neither ‘firm’.

    36. Lenny Hartley says:

      Joemcq I applied, said I was a yoon and remain and member of the northern branch but no invite!

    37. North chiel says:

      Re Galamcennalth @ 0651pm & Vestas@0744 pm. I agree that ” I don’t support football”
      59/41 No split is likely to ” weighted towards female respondents ” who if I recall were less in inclined to vote Yes in sept. 2014. Is this because they were more susceptible to the ” project fear”
      scare agenda i.e. supermarket higher food price scare , job losses scare, etc.etc. Is there a ” lack of confidence ” , as regards to female voters in being ” independent” and is this a continuing legacy from ” better together” & project fear which appears to have been more successful in influencing
      the female vote? If so then this requires to be addressed prior to Indyref2 .
      Also, is it the case that the majority of the electorate will ” not see the light” until the dawning of the day” ( and I am thinking of the disastrous economic consequences of Brexit” ) .The problem here is the time factor as the economic ” hit” will be 2 years down the road, and unfortunately ” after Indyref2″. i.e. Too late. Can anybody solve the conundrum??

    38. Jock McDonnell says:

      Is it possible to show, after adjusting for socio-economic factors that voting Yes, gives you longer remaining life expectancy.
      That might focus some minds.

    39. Robert Peffers says:

      @Joseph Simpson says: 15 February, 2017 at 6:23 pm:

      “Time will impact on the elderly No numbers, but maybe not in time for the next referendum.”.

      Dear God – not another numptie? Sheesh!

      Of course it will not be in time for all the elderly to die and have mawks crawling out of them.

      No matter at what point you decide to claim someone becomes, “elderly”, on the same day they die there will be another batch of Scots arriving at that particular age.

      Not only that but the demographic is that, as the proportion of elderly to not elderly is proven to now be becoming a problem they will not be decreasing in numbers as time goes by but will be increasing in numbers.

      Being elderly does not automatically predispose people to become unionist. Thus we must look for what does predispose them to be unionist before we can work on a cure for it. If you do not recognise why they remain unionists you stand little chance of finding the answer to the question , “Why are they still Unionists”.

      Let’s be just as daft and make another daft wrong diagnosis – Oh! Look! I’ve just worked out that all these people that voted NO the last time are registered to vote in the Referendum. If we stop all folks who are registered to vote in the referendum from voting in the referendum there will be no, “No”, voters to vote, “NO”, in the referendum.

    40. Ghillie says:

      So if you support a football club (any that is not the Queen’s 11) then you are more likely to support Independence?

      = ) SMASHING = )

    41. dakk says:

      Kudos to all the likely Yes Rangers fans.

      Plague on the houses of all the No contingent.

      Especially the ‘No’ Celtic fans,many of whom would be voting to remain third class British citizens.Scottish and Roman Catholic.

      How should we cry them?

      Uncle Jaddies or Uncle Pocks ?

    42. heedtracker says:

      Bet Rangers fans reading this are looking at each other with suspicion now. Every second Rangers fan is a YESer.

    43. Rev. Stuart Campbell says:

      “Do women tend to not support compared to men? I don’t know.”

      Yes. 37% of men said they didn’t support a football team, and 68% of women.

      In terms of age, 50% of the 16-34 age group didn’t follow football, 50% of the 35-55s, and 59% of the over-55s. So older people were LESS likely to be footy fans.

    44. Rev. Stuart Campbell says:

      “Can you do one for Hibs V Hearts”

      We’ve been over this. If you break the other clubs down you end up with a sample of two people for Kilmarnock or whatever, which is psephologically worthless.

    45. Robert Peffers says:

      @handclapping says: 15 February, 2017 at 6:37 pm:

      “If its clubs in the same city we need the figures for Dundee, also Yes, and Edinburgh, No, too.”

      That’ll be Hearts & Edinburgh City them, handclapping? Last time I looked the Hibs stadium was in Leith.

    46. Rev. Stuart Campbell says:

      “So the spurious grubby pollster in order to get a thumping No vote has included those who don’t actually support football. Effin grubby pollsters!”

      Um, the “spurious grubby pollster” does what I tell it to.

    47. handclapping says:

      @North chiel
      Even if we can’t predict the Brexit future we can make a meal of the Brexit past ie the early 70s with the dead unburied, petrol rationing, electricity blackouts and that even in the days when 1 job would feed a family. Oh and of course for the old folk who long for those halcyon days, the shame of not being able to manage on your pension and having to have meals with your children and their families because with inflation at 25% pensions didn’t keep up.

      @Jock McDonnell
      I’ve been SNP since 63; does that give me even longer?

    48. handclapping says:

      Ah yes independence for Leith. You do know that big ugly Edinburgh forced an Act of Union on Leith and Leith was extinguished. (sounds familiar?)

      The reason for the Act was also familiar it was Edinburgh’s cheapest way of disposing of their sewage!

    49. Jimbo says:

      Joseph Simpson wrote: “The question is how we do persuade the elderly, women and Non Scottish UK residents?

      This is going to be a problem. My elderly mother-in-law is an SNP voter and very pro independence but voted NO in the referendum because she was told by the husband of our ex Labour MSP that she would definitely lose her pension in an Indy Scotland.

      It’s her only income and she voted NO out of fear of losing it. We have to somehow get it through to those elderly who are dependent on their British pensions that it will be paid to them regardless.

    50. R-type Grunt says:

      Rangers fans are scum. Who knew?

      Cue loads of irate Rangers fans claiming they support independence. Here’s a tip – if you don’t want to be called a Nazi stop attending Nazi Ball.

    51. shug says:

      We need to draw out how Westminster:

      Is cutting the NHS
      Under funding welfare
      Disbanding Scottish regiments
      Dismantling the army in Scotland
      Is planning to stop inflation increases for pensions
      Extending the retirement age
      Making pensioners sell their homes to pay for care

      These are the messages for unionists

      In addition there is no shortage of home county types willing to trash Scots as subsidy junkies etc

    52. shug says:

      and I have not started on Brexit

      no more subsidies for farmers
      20% import charges on EU exports
      no more infrastructure support

    53. galamcennalath says:

      North chiel says:

      The problem here is the time factor as the economic ” hit” will be 2 years down the road, and unfortunately ” after Indyref2?. i.e. Too late.

      I think the implications, if not the “hit” will start to become apparent within weeks of Article 50.

      Firstly, the Tories have spun a fantasy about dealing with divorce, transition, and trade within two years. That will be blown out of the water soon, and the Tories seen to be fools and/or liars.

      The EU will want each step, one at a time. I can see the talks stalling on the divorce!

      At that point the cliff edge will come into view. The reality of no deal will be very scary.

      The pound will drop, prices will rise, companies will begin to leave. Shite will fly well within the two years IMO.

      The alternative is May just goes along with the EU divorce and agrees to virtually business as usual for five years as the transition deal. UKIP, Brexiteers, and press will go spare.

      I think there is no way May can avoid chaos, one way or another.

      And from an Indy perspective that makes staying in the UK a poor and risky option. The media can’t keep hiding that.

      The link I posted at 7:58 is vivid, and probably accurate.

    54. Robert Peffers says:

      @handclapping says: 15 February, 2017 at 9:02 pm;

      “Ah yes independence for Leith. You do know that big ugly Edinburgh forced an Act of Union on Leith and Leith was extinguished. (sounds familiar?)
      The reason for the Act was also familiar it was Edinburgh’s cheapest way of disposing of their sewage!”

      Just thought I’d dangle the bait, handclapping.
      LOL!

      There was, and probably still is, a pub down Leith Walk called the Half-Way. It was/is built across the old Edinburgh Leith border. In the days when the two towns were separate they had different licencing hours.

      So at Last Orders at one side of the bar the other side was still licenced to be open.

      There was a brass strip across the floor and up the walls to distinguish the border, So you bought your drink in one town and had to step over into the other to legally drink it when the early half closed.

      Not been back for many years but I’d think they would keep the brass strip and the name as a historic draw for people.

    55. defo says:

      Iain More.

      Trusting in polling companies is difficult.
      He who pays the piper, an aw that.
      Stu is calling the tune on this one, and even yet…

      As for fitba, the scales dropped from my eyes decades ago. I find the whole professional thing quite absurd. I still catch the odd junior game. Cheap, and much more fun.

    56. Rock says:

      Robert Peffers,

      “Being elderly does not automatically predispose people to become unionist.”

      All known information suggests that the vast majority of the elderly in Scotland are unionist.

    57. defo says:

      Robert Peffers

      That incarnation of the pub shut decades ago Rab. It’s now next to a knocking shop, and used as the howf for the workers, I think.
      The Boundary bar is still there though.

    58. BBC Scotland Tells Lies says:

      Thanks for putting this Poll together Rev.

      I think the word of the day has to be “frustrating”.

      We still can’t seem to punch through the 50% glass ceiling. But as usual we will keep hammering away.

      I still believe that the Polls will shift dramatically once Article 50 is triggered and Nicola gives us the date for IndyRef2.

      Take another Poll in six months time and see the difference.

      Scots will be crying out for Independence.

      And 46% 47% 48% 49% at this stage is no bad thing.

      Onwards and Upwards.

    59. handclapping says:

      @Rock
      Alt-truths do not help your argument. Most people become conservative as the age and feel unable to cope with change. In the last referendum many elderly voted No as they considered that was the least change. Some who grew up when being British could be considered to be a matter of pride may have voted for the union on that basis. Some may still do so, they are the elderly unionists. The others were just scared old folk.

    60. North chiel says:

      Ref ” Galamcennalath” @ 0928 pm ” . Read your earlier post & link. I sincerely hope that
      the “Brexit implications” will materialise/ crystallise soon after article 50 trigger. However , my thoughts are that the
      Establishment propagandists will undoubtedly do their utmost to ” cover up” the economic fallout
      from the Scottish electorate until after Indyref 2 . ( jam tomorrow , with Britannia Global trade renaissonse ).

    61. BBC Scotland Tells Lies says:

      And remember that 50% plus ONE vote wins the game.

    62. Still Positive says:

      Joemcg & Lenny earlier re QT.

      My son also applied and said he voted Yes and Labour but not a member of a political party. Heard nothing. He reckons they still have info on him from other times he has applied.

    63. Fireproofjim says:

      For once I agree with Rock, god help me.
      Of my numerous friends in their mid seventies only two are Yes supporters. The rest hark back to the time when Britain could look back on its noble part in beating Fascism and that’s much of what the UK means to them. All the statistics say much the same and I think there is little that will change that demographic.
      We should concentrate on inspiring and getting out the young voters and the disillusioned Labour voters. There are enough potential votes there to win.

    64. yesindyref2 says:

      Over-paid fragile prima donnas from all over the place very experienced in diving should be swimmers or poor bit actors, but from nowhere near where the team actually plays.

      Junior football is much better, at least transfers are from somewhere within 60 miles. Usually.

    65. Fireproofjim says:

      Robert Peffers
      The bar is called the Boundary Bar and is still there having recently opened after a refurb.
      What you say about the dual drinking law as there is true.

    66. yesindyref2 says:

      My Brazilian is better than your Argentinian any day of the week.

      Can I say that?

    67. Robert Peffers says:

      defo says: 15 February, 2017 at 9:55 pm

      “That incarnation of the pub shut decades ago Rab. It’s now next to a knocking shop, and used as the howf for the workers, I think.
      The Boundary bar is still there though”

      Perhaps it is my memory that is at fault, Defo. It was a long time ago since I went to school in Leith and later hung around with my Leither mates.

      Pubs were not too high on my list of important things – even back then. One of my female friends had an uncle who owned the, “Eldorado Stadium and dance hall”.

      Strange mixture Boxing & Wrestling Stadium and dance hall. It was on the Big Band & Jazz Band circuit list so many a happy evening spent there.

      I would say the very best of which was when that great Leither Jazzman, the late Alex Welsh came home to the Eldo when on tour.

      However, as I say, I probably remembered the bar as the Half-Way and got it’s name wrong.

    68. Johnny says:

      I don’t think any group should be ‘left out’ or not courted to support indy on the basis that they are hard to reach. That seems quite cynical and ‘Better Togetherish’ to me.

      We want to take everyone with us (or as many as possible anyway). I’d like everyone in this country to feel that they are ‘worth it’. You don’t manage that by excluding people.

      I’m not a confident person and I didn’t get annoyed on a personal level when we were told ‘Scotland can’t do it’ in the run-up to 2014. But I was angry when I looked around and knew that our people are as capable as anyone else, but that many don’t believe it.

      I don’t think triangulating or only targeting certain ‘demographics’ is the way to build a cross-society based support for independence.

      We should want to make as many people as possible across all ‘groups’ in society excited about the prospect of independence. Again, you won’t do that by effectively saying ‘we gave up on you cos it was too hard’ to any sector of society.

      And, really, having broad-based support limits the chances that there would be as much carping afterwards.

      We should be looking to let everyone in this country know that they are valued, and reassure them that an independent Scotland holds nothing to fear for them (and everything to gain).

      In short, show everyone some love – no matter how difficult it is to gain their support. After all, we want indy because we believe it is best for us *all*, right?

    69. Rock says:

      Rock,

      “All known information suggests that the vast majority of the elderly in Scotland are unionist.”

      handclapping,

      “@Rock
      Alt-truths do not help your argument. Most people become conservative as the age and feel unable to cope with change. In the last referendum many elderly voted No as they considered that was the least change. Some who grew up when being British could be considered to be a matter of pride may have voted for the union on that basis. Some may still do so, they are the elderly unionists. The others were just scared old folk.”

      So what are you contradicting in what I wrote?

    70. yesindyref2 says:

      Ooops, I finally looked that up. Mmm. Ah well. Ouch.

      Try this one instead. Real men play rugby. Women too.

      http://www.scottishrugby.org/scotland-squads/scotland-women

    71. Rock says:

      Johnny,

      “I don’t think any group should be ‘left out’ or not courted to support indy on the basis that they are hard to reach.”

      Given that time and resources are limited in a campaign, would you rather court those who are less likely to vote for independence or those who are more likely?

      Someone will have to be ‘left out’.

      How do you decide which one?

      At random?

    72. yesindyref2 says:

      Suppose I’d better make a serious comment.

      37% of Rangers supporters would vote YES, and that’s surprising considering the constant abuse of them by some YES supporters who should know better.

      Independence will be won by being inclusive not divisive. Every single person in Scotland is a potential YES voter.

    73. Rock says:

      Fireproofjim,

      “We should concentrate on inspiring and getting out the young voters and the disillusioned Labour voters. There are enough potential votes there to win.”

      I have been saying for long that the crucial support to lead to a Yes majority will come from the working class and the unemployed, the sort of people the RIC was so successful in reaching, but not enough to win last time.

      Contrast that with the crushing No voting majorities in the then “SNP heartlands”.

      It was and will be a total waste of time and money to try and convince the selfish middle classes, the British Nationalist elderly and the English.

      Yes voters from these three overlapping groups will not need any convincing.

    74. JGedd says:

      Fireproofjim says: @10.29pm

      “Of my numerous friends in their mid seventies only two are Yes supporters.”

      Note what you say but puzzled at their reasons. Men in their mid seventies were children during the Second World War, only just entering primary school when it ended.

      Could it not be, perhaps, that they were the first generation to benefit from the welfare state post-war? They were also beneficiaries, by the time they entered the work force, of full employment and strong trade unions. They would also be aware of the sacrifices and hardships endured by their parents’ generation to bring this about. They did greatly admire the generation which fought the Second World War – and their solidarity – and grew up probably grateful for the opportunities that had been won for them, the post-war generation.

      Growing up with the knowledge that they had often improved their lot compared to that of their parents might have sealed their sense of being part of a confident and more secure polity. It may be that they are looking back to the fifties and sixties rather than the war years.

      Just a thought.

    75. yesindyref2 says:

      I can’t really view this, facebook which I don’t have nearly freezes my browser, but seems Rangers and Celtic fans have been active for a long time together in the cause of Independence.

      https://www.facebook.com/CelticRangersFansUnitedForAYesVote/?nr

    76. Robert Peffers says:

      @handclapping says: 15 February, 2017 at 10:12 pm:

      “Alt-truths do not help your argument. Most people become conservative as the age and feel unable to cope with change.”

      Why bother replying to Rock? He has a strange mental process.

      He imagines that being old predisposes people to be unionists because there were more of them voted NO.

      It never enters a fool’s mind that because they jump to a wrong conclusion that they may have misdiagnosed the facts as quoted. The facts may be correct – it is the diagnosis that is wrong.

      In fact the simple diagnosis is, when you actually think about it, quite the opposite to what Rock concludes.

      The larger number of older NO votes are not Unionist because being old predisposes them to be unionists. It is because being unionist indicates they were unionists before the YES movement began to become more popular.

      Thus the YES movement has simply pulled in most of its support from a younger group of people.

      By Rocks way of diagnosing why certain groups vote no could well be worked like this :-

      “The facts are that no chimpanzees voted NO. So most YES votes must be chimpanzees.”.

      (apologies to all NO voting chimpanzees – it was used as example for only illustration purposes. No offence was intended).

      You really honestly have to laugh at Rocks rocklike resolve to stick to his daft points.

    77. schrodingers cat says:

      North chiel says:
      15 February, 2017 at 10:13 pm

      Ref ” Galamcennalath” @ 0928 pm ” . Read your earlier post & link. I sincerely hope that
      the “Brexit implications” will materialise/ crystallise soon after article 50 trigger. However , my thoughts are that the
      Establishment propagandists will undoubtedly do their utmost to ” cover up” the economic fallout
      from the Scottish electorate until after Indyref 2 . ( jam tomorrow , with Britannia Global trade renaissonse ).

      I think this is happening already, we should book mark any report of any company moving away, laying off people etc, we need to provide a running commentary cos I think this is correct, the bbc will not. too afraid of the ammunition it provides and afraid of being seen to do down the uk

      can i ask the wingers, if you see any report of such activities, post a link on any future threads, and we can start to make a list

    78. Robert Peffers says:

      @Fireproofjim says: 15 February, 2017 at 10:29 pm:

      “For once I agree with Rock, god help me.”

      Oh! Come on! Fireproofjim!

      No one is disputing that there are more older folks that voted NO in the referendum. That is simply a fact as shown by the numbers.

      Where Rock and Co. are being so idiotic is by drawing the absolutely wrong conclusion from the absolutely correct facts.

      The claim that being old can predispose anyone to vote NO is plainly daft. Here is another indisputable fact – older folk tend to become more, “conservative”, (here conservative simple means resistant to change), with age.

      However, if a particular older person has been an independence supporter all their life then their conservatism, (small c), is to remain staunchly an independence supporter. Like myself for example.

      So again no one disputes the fact that older folk tend to be more, “conservative”, (resistant to change), but that too is the correct conclusion to be drawn from the facts.

      It is not that simply by being old it will predispose anyone to become unionists it is that being an old unionist predisposes the older person to REMAIN a old unionist or whatever else they already were before they became older people.

    79. schrodingers cat says:

      http://www.ft.com/content/a3d0eff4-c224-11e6-81c2-f57d90f6741a

      lloyds of london relocate
      John Nelson, Lloyd’s chairman, said the market had decided it needed to act sooner rather than later to protect the 11 per cent of its revenues coming from Europe.

    80. Robert Peffers says:

      @Johnny says: 15 February, 2017 at 10:51 pm:

      “I don’t think any group should be ‘left out’ or not courted to support indy on the basis that they are hard to reach. That seems quite cynical and ‘Better Togetherish’ to me.”

      Great Post, Johnny. Sanity and good common sense at last.

    81. yesindyref2 says:

      Ah well, here’s another non-divisive group for YES.

      Scottish Pensioners for Independence.

      https://www.facebook.com/PensionersforYes/

    82. Robert Peffers says:

      @JGedd says: 15 February, 2017 at 11:20 pm:

      “Note what you say but puzzled at their reasons. Men in their mid seventies were children during the Second World War, only just entering primary school when it ended.”

      Note what you say but as one a wee bit older I know more of the truth having not only lived through it but lived part of it in the deep south in Hants, (pre-and during the invasion of Normandy), and a spell in London during the Bliiz.

      Here is the brutal truth – these people you speak of were subjected to the absolutely most, “England Stood against the NAZI might singlehanded”, propaganda on a 24/7/365 basis all their lives. A bit like the myth of Dunkirk – it was a humiliating retreat in truth. A bit like the USA myth that the USA came to save our bacon.

      The USA were attempting, not successfully, to get out of the Great Depression. They first sold the Allies arms and supplies on a cash now and transport it yourself basis.

      The USA act that set this up begins, “In defense of the US … “. As they knew it was in defence of the USA, why were they still not fighting their own corner?

      After the allies cash ran out the USA began the Lease/Lend Act – Buy now pay later and continued to remain over there and not over here. This act too begins, “In defense of the us … “.

      Not until Japan declared war by taking out Perl Harbour and Hitler declaring war on the USA did they come to fight. BTW: they flogged us 50 WWI destroyers in exchange for our overseas bases – Many of the old ships couldn’t make it over the Atlantic and the USA still has our overseas bases.

      So there you go. These people were brainwashed from birth and they soaked in all the England Stood alone propaganda. Note it wasn’t then that they claimed as they do now to be British it was England that was the thing.

      Getting the idea now, JGedd?

      Could it not be, perhaps, that they were the first generation to benefit from the welfare state post-war? They were also beneficiaries, by the time they entered the work force, of full employment and strong trade unions. They would also be aware of the sacrifices and hardships endured by their parents’ generation to bring this about. They did greatly admire the generation which fought the Second World War – and their solidarity – and grew up probably grateful for the opportunities that had been won for them, the post-war generation.
      Growing up with the knowledge that they had often improved their lot compared to that of their parents might have sealed their sense of being part of a confident and more secure polity. It may be that they are looking back to the fifties and sixties rather than the war years.
      Just a thought.

    83. Joemcg says:

      The only thing I can think of after this poll to try and get us over the 50% line is playing it dirtier and less of the kid gloves. Target the older vote with threats of having to sell their properties for future life saving operations. It’s guaranteed BT2 would so why shouldn’t we? Let us do the scaring this time.

    84. Big Phil says:

      To be honest i think that all polls are shite ,I have never been asked ! , during Indy1 I would have put my house on 70/30 for indy ,I even said that on the 17th sept on facebook to my friends. We wer robbed and everyone knows it.In this democratic land of make belief you are a loony if you say it was rigged and i really must be a loony. Most “votes” from pensioners wer postal and thats wer it went wrong,,after all these years we still think the establishment will play fair. Dont blame any demographic ,blame a corrupt westminster government.

    85. yesindyref2 says:

      @Robert
      The US wasn’t ready for war in 1939, it had a demoralised military, and scant military assets after (still in) the Great Depression. It used the time to build up its military industry. But many Yanks themselves did take part, though the US wasn’t involved. They were “over here” long before they were “over here”. I think they’d been involved since Franco. Haven’t got time for a proper look, but this gives a flavour of it (though more from the economy point of view):

      As war spread throughout Europe and Asia between 1939 and 1941, nowhere was the federal government’s leadership more important than in the realm of “preparedness” — the national project to ready for war by enlarging the military, strengthening certain allies such as Great Britain, and above all converting America’s industrial base to produce armaments and other war materiel rather than civilian goods.

      By the time of Pearly Harbour they had recovered some, but much more importantly the armaments factories were in place and were able to curno out tanks, aircraft and ships. Similar happened with Russia during and after the Russian Convoys, and movement of production over the Urals.

    86. Still Positive says:

      I think we have to concentrate on the fact that Scotland is a net exporter while England is a net importer and has a serious deficit wre to imports/exports.

      I also think you should not be focussing on the older generation, of which I am one, as many of us voted SNP in the seventies to secure Scotland’s oil, which was fruitless.

      I, however, have been in favour of Scottish independence since 1967 before oil was discovered.

    87. yesindyref2 says:

      Pearl! Must be thinking of pearly gates.

    88. yesindyref2 says:

      Jings, churn not curno, and more importantly Arctic Convoys.

    89. Robert J. Sutherland says:

      Rock @ 23:11:

      … the sort of people the RIC was so successful in reaching, but not enough to win last time.

      A semi-myth. RIC may have helped to get people “out of hiding from the poll tax” and registered, but in the end most of these people didn’t bother to vote. Just look at the low turnout figures for Glasgow to see. And Glasgow voted yes anyway.

      Anyone who can mobilise the “lumpen proletariat” for indy is welcome to try, and I hope they succeed next time. If it works, so much the better. You would think that self-interest should motivate these (non-)voters more than anyone, but many of them last time preferred to sit on their ar**s and let someone else decide.

      Yet a few people on here are agonising over all the highly-motivated “incomers”, FGS!

    90. JGedd says:

      @ Robert Peffers 12.26am

      Wouldn’t disagree with anything that you say, Robert. I was only presenting what I think is often the mindset of that immediate post-war generation. They saw themselves as the lucky generation and often voted Labour, seeing that party as having ensured the welfare state.

      I have met these people most of my life who seem unable to recognise that all of those benefits which enabled them to do better than their parents’ generation are disappearing. They seem unable to see that they are bequeathing a more precarious and difficult future to their grandchildren.

      By the way, I’m not so young myself, used to vote Labour but gave up on them long ago and realised that independence was the only way. Many others did likewise, accounting for the growth in support for the SNP. I have just tried to understand the mindset of those who seem unable to change their point of view.

      Best wishes Robert. Have to hit the hay now.

    91. William Wallace says:

      @ Robert J. Sutherland says: “Anyone who can mobilise the “lumpen proletariat” for indy is welcome to try, and I hope they succeed next time. If it works, so much the better. You would think that self-interest should motivate these (non-)voters more than anyone, but many of them last time preferred to sit on their ar**s and let someone else decide.”

      I’ve been giving that issue some thought of late. I’ve something of a half arsed solution. I need help though and plenty of it.

    92. Ghillie says:

      Johnny @ 10.51 pm

      YES! That’s the spirit!!

      Rock @ 11.00 pm Haud yer whist ye miserable git.

      Robert Peffers @ 11.59 pm Spot on = )

      I’m no spring chicken and my mum and dad are well into their 80’s, been Independence-minded all their lives, am so very proud of their committment to Scotland 🙂

      We can and ABSOLUTELY should be positive!

      This is an inclusive country and naturally our campaign for Independence should and will be Inclusive.

      Amongst ourselves and our many talents we can and will reach out to absolutely everybody.

      Watch out trolls, we want to win your hearts too = )

    93. Ghillie says:

      William Wallace @ 3.25 am

      What is your idea to engage ‘non-voters’ ?

      How do you want folk to help?

    94. William Wallace says:

      @ Ghillie.

      There is a barrier between your everyday Scot and their perception of politics as they observe it. I’m not talking about the twitterati and the commentariat but, the people that live in the schemes. The very people that need to understand the significance of their vote in determining Scotland’s future as an independent nation.

      “The scheme” is the heart of Scotland – always has been and
      always will be. The main actors in the schemes are the people we need to reach out to if we are to convince the people of Scotland to mobilise and fight for independence.

      In order to do this we must translate what we know intellectually, into an easily digestible and easily disseminated narrative to the people that will decide Scotland’s future. There is a means to that particular end and between us – I believe that that end is much simpler to reach than we think it is.

      Just sayin like… I’ve details in mind obviously.

      If there are grammar issues, typos or formatting issues let me in advance blame the single malt. 😉

    95. Nana says:

      https://itisintruthnotforglory.wordpress.com/2017/02/15/anti-english/

      UK fishermen may not win ‘waters back’ after Brexit, EU memo reveals
      http://archive.is/hEy4q

      Theresa May’s Empire of the Mind
      http://archive.is/aM8Ry

      19 million Brits are on the edge of poverty even though nearly everyone has a job — and it’s going to get worse
      http://archive.is/7cO6s

    96. Dundee Graeme says:

      For the Dundee clubs I expect that it would look a bit like Rantic and celgers.

      United fans I speak with on forums are about 70% Yes and the other lot about 60% No.

      Dundee does see itself as the “Establishment Club” in the City and United are more of a free thinking bunch.

      Hertz and Hibs will be similar too…most Hearts fans I know are No’s and universally all Hibees I know (though there’s only about 7 of them) are Yes.

      Football team does come into to it to an extent but then most people are drawn to a team and history and what is “stands for” is one key reason.

      A Proud Arab

    97. Smallaxe says:

      Nana: Good Morning,

      Links, just in time for breakfast.Kettle’s on.

      Peace Always

    98. Nana says:

      Good morning Smallaxe. Here’s few more for later

      Someone best tell Davidson
      ‘Council tax bombshell’ will see rates rocket 25% in the next three years
      http://archive.is/mHCRa

      and in Scotland
      https://twitter.com/GarethBQuinn/status/832011301668913152

      http://realmedia.press/exclusive-rbs-trained-staff-to-forge-customer-signatures-says-whistleblower/

      http://www.euronews.com/2017/02/15/eu-approves-free-trade-deal-with-canada

    99. Smallaxe says:

      Seconds, great, thank’s Nana.
      🙂

      Peace Always

    100. Les Wilson says:

      Nana says:

      Great links today Nana (they normally are!), Kudos

    101. Jock McDonnell says:

      @handclapping
      I reckon on average yessers live longer after voting in indyref

    102. Sinky says:

      Someone should remind Frank McAveety in this morning’s Herald that Tories have reduced the SCottish budget by 9% in real terms.

      Labour bogus claims of £1.5 billion cut to local authorities since 2011 do not compare like with like as some health spending and police “centralisation” has removed these responsibilities from local councils.

      If the £1.5 billion was correct where would Labour make the Westminster cuts?

      Some Labour councils must be happy with the settlemeny as they havent increased council tax.

      On Business Rates why did Labour / Tory councils in Aberdeenshire and Moray refuse to give assistance to local firms which was within their powers.

    103. Smallaxe says:

      Les Wilson says:

      They Always are!

      fixed that for you Les.
      🙂

      Peace Always

    104. Proud Cybernat says:

      What it all boils down to…

      http://imgur.com/a/zn1hp

    105. Macart says:

      @Nana

      Mornin’ Nana. 🙂

      Read the ‘everything you need to know’ piece on politics.co last night. The fella isn’t far off the mark. It will be that awful and it will hit every single person in their livingroom.

      As part of the UK it is also inescapable and inevitable. When the UK gov has to start paying to create entire new legislative and bureaucratic bodies to facilitate a world outside current trade and legislation where did everyone think they were going to get the money?

      When producers pay for increases in consumables and materials required, or when retailers have to pay extra to stock their shelves. There was only ever going to be one place where the costs were going to be really borne.

      Its the double whammy. People will be taxed to pay for new or reinstated government bodies and people will pay the extra every single week in costs across the board in the production, retail and private sectors.

      No one and I do mean no one, is going to freeze their current pricing structure out of the goodness of their hearts. Costs for everything WILL be passed along to an inevitable end point.

      Y’know, you keep hearing from folk that this ain’t so bad right now and how much worse could it get? They tend to completely overlook that Brexit hasn’t started yet. What they consider minor financial inconvenience at the moment, although pretty fucking real to those of us on or below the median, isn’t anywhere near the worst that is going to happen.

      This is merely a gusty wind. The storm is just over the horizon.

    106. Ken500 says:

      Stewart Spence complains about an Independent rate rise assessment. (UK wide). Rates rising from £253K to £314K. The last time the Marcliffe was put up for sale, a few years ago. It was valued at £19Million. Any rate expense will be taken off profits reducing (20%) corp tax. Going into the local economy, instead of Westminster coffers and not coming back. There is a rate rebate scheme (SNP) which benefits small businesses. The majority do not pay rates. Despite Tories complains most of the Party refused to endorses the rates relief schemes. If they get into power. It will not be supported by them. Many councils are putting aside funds. So Businesses if they wish can appeal the Independent assessment.

    107. orri says:

      Rock is being a thick as mince, there are less polite ways of saying it of course.

      The higher the YES/NO vote is in any sub category the less likely it is that you’ll persuade anyone. If they’re on board then the best you might do is keep them that way. Possibly they might persuade others in the same other sub categories.

      Those more opposed to you might be persuaded to your side. Especially if your opponents take the same attitude of assuming they are theirs by default.

      All Rock’s strategy seems to consist of is emphasising divisions. If Scotland does leave the UK it should be as one.

    108. Smallaxe says:

      orri: Agreed!

      Out of Many, One People

      Peace Always

    109. Dorothy Devine says:

      Nana, having great difficulty accessing the Brendan O’Hara piece , is there another method of accessing ?

    110. Nana says:

      @Dorothy Devine

      Working fine for me Dorothy, try switching your computer off for a few minutes. Maybe clear your cache. Sometimes works!

    111. Robert Peffers says:

      @R-type Grunt says: 15 February, 2017 at 9:05 pm:

      “if you don’t want to be called a Nazi stop attending Nazi Ball.”

      More like, “Stop wearing the NAZI uniform and waving the NAZI flag while singing the NAZI anthems if you are not a NAZI supporter.”

      The old saying applies, “If ye flee wi the craws ye maun bi shot iz a craw”.

    112. Nana says:

      @Macart

      Spent a good while on Tuesday trying to explain what is likely to come about with brexit. Apparently I’m a ‘doom merchant’ even though I provided expert analysis from blogs to show the reality.

      Some people have an absolute blind spot when it comes to the EU.

      Its all bananas, Nana!!

    113. galamcennalath says:

      Macart says:

      This is merely a gusty wind. The storm is just over the horizon.

      When Article 50 is triggered and the EU speaks up, telling the UK how things will be, it will all change.

      The Leavers have been sold an absolute crock of shite and don’t know it yet. The media has been relentlessly selling Brexit as “see it’s all going to be just fine”. There are going to be a lot of angry people. For one thing the immigration changes they were promised may never happen. The money paid to the EU is going to be a drop in the ocean compared to the huge economic changes to come. Most ordinary Leavers are going to feel very foolish, I reckon, when they realise the extent to which they were lied to.

      I assume Yes-Leave people here is Scotland haven’t quite come to terms either with just what Leave is going to mean. Hopefully the reality will shock them into giving their YES leanings priority!

    114. Ken500 says:

      If there are a higher proportion of elderly retired people as a % of the population. There will be a lower employment rate of economically active people. When compared to other places elsewhere. In Scotland people die younger compared to the rest of the UK.

      To make comparisons like with like. That needs to be taken into consideration.

    115. heedtracker says:

      All Rock’s strategy seems to consist of is emphasising divisions. If Scotland does leave the UK it should be as one.”

      Seconded. Rock’s a pretty skillful er, dude though. If we all trip down the Rock route, we’re essentially sending out a very big underlying message, who can we exclude and who can we prevent from participating in Scottish democracy.

      Its an insidious trick and ploy, excluding people from their own democracy, and ofcourse currently on display in the US with the Heil Trump gangsters.

      Tory Brits have done it since the beginning of UK democracy. Stand outside the Palace of Westminster and everything about it is exactly what our masters want us to understand, its exclusive, you cant get in to it, you cant understand it, its not yours, you’re like medieval peasants at the gates of a giant gothic fortress. Listen to our hired goons like Ligger Neil and Nic Robinson, only they can explain how it works because youre so stupid.

      Our parliament should be like Hampden Park, with everyone that lives in Scotland in the stadium able to see what’s going on, say what we think and with everyone in Scotland able to vote.

      Everything a tory says is a lie and everything they say has a hidden message, keep out of our “democracy.”

      Fcuk that.

    116. Robert Peffers says:

      @JGedd says: 16 February, 2017 at 1:45 am:

      “They saw themselves as the lucky generation and often voted Labour, seeing that party as having ensured the welfare state.”

      Again, JGedd, The truth is somewhat different. That, “Lucky Generation”, did have great advantages but those advantages come on the back of WWII.

      Being that wee bit older I know the truth. When I was pre-school age my parents were living in a private rental house in Edinburgh and struggled to pay the rental. They were on the Edinburgh Housing list and had little hope of a council house any time soon.

      Then came WWII. Dad was conscripted and, due to an error, my mother was also conscripted to do armament work in England. I was sent to be brought up by my Grandparents in a Pluckie’s Raw , (Ploughman’s row).

      This was a one main room with two bed recesses. A bedroom and a tiny scullery. It had no running water, (except down the walls), no gas and no electricity. The dry toilet was at the bottom of the garden and there was one standpipe for 8 homes and only two drains for dirty water for 8 homes. There was no NHS and no one could afford a Doctor.

      After the war we got a prefab in an Edinburgh housing scheme. We were better off than most on the scheme because Dad had a Motorbike and sidecar. Working folk didn’t have cars and few could afford a motorbike.

      So there you go – if it were not for a World War the working class would have remained in dire poverty. Where the Westminster Establishment of unionist parties are intent upon taking us back to as we communicate here on Wings.

      This at a time when Westminster is telling us we are all in this austerity together and where the most wealthy have more than doubled their wealth.

      Quite simply you are not suffering austerity when you are doubling your wealth and it is obvious the source of that increased wealth is from the austerity the wealthy are imposing upon the poor.

      This in spite of the UK being almost constantly involved in war between WWII and today. Sometimes you must take a few steps back to see the bigger picture.

    117. Macart says:

      @galamcennalath

      I have no bone in the entire EU/EFTA/IN/OUT argument. More importantly, I’m not fussed so long as we participate with the continent and don’t trample on people’s human rights. As far as I’m concerned, there is a far more stifling and oppressive political union and constitutional clusterf**k a damn sight closer to home.

      The world is an ongoing exercise in interconnectivity and interdependence. Trade, diplomacy, legislation, bureaucracy, sovereignties all woven together in treaties, partnerships and understandings. Massively complicated and frighteningly fragile as a socio-economic construct. It doesn’t take much to destroy the economies of nations, or drive entire demographics into appalling hardship.

      It only takes ignorance.

      What the UK wants doesn’t matter to the other 27 nations. They all have economies and national interests. I doubt there will be much sympathy as that other shoe drops.

    118. Dorothy Devine says:

      Nana, still got the message that there was difficulty with this link but happily/ unhappily found the piece by a bit of a google !

      Shocking that information has been so regularly withheld while putting Scots and Scotland at risk.

    119. heedtracker says:

      So as cheezeballs like Rock stride in and say, “listen to me everyone, who can we exclude from our democracy, I am very tough and a bully and its really important that we keep this group of rotters out of our democracy and them and that lot too…”

      Think about what the original architect of Holyrood was designing for our new Holyrood parliament and why it was not the usual imperial gothic or classical fortress like Westminster. And then ask, why did our UKOK political masters jump in and try to then change Holyrood into just the same old same old, inaccessible, excluding, sometimes incomprehensibly ugly and ofcourse skullfcukingly expensive?

      http://www.designbuild-network.com/projects/spb/

      The original Spanish architectural Enric Miralle envisaged new Scottish democracy as open to everyone, benign and welcoming as a Scottish beach, with our Scottish parliament at the shore line, fishing boats dragged up in front of it, as open and accessible an architectural and democratic metaphor as you can get basically.

    120. Capella says:

      @ Nana – excellent links as always. The sinister influence of the secretly funded DUP Leave Campaign in the BREXIT vote is worth pursuing. Two links, the Fintan O’Toole Irish Times piece, and the Opendemocracy article explore it. Hope some light is shone into that murky black hole. (Not holding breath).

      Recently watched Ken Loach’s “Hidden Agenda” about the role of UK secret services in Northern Irish human rights abuses. Very relevant still today in light of manipulation of elections/referendums:

      http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-clODWo_C5M

    121. manandboy says:

      The UK is currently being ‘governed’ in an attitude of casual, undisciplined, incompetent, arrogance.
      Think of any Tory Minister and apply the above profile.
      Yep, that’s the Tories alright.

      Independence – you know it makes sense.

    122. Fred says:

      Thanx for the linx Nana, so the mass sexual assault by Arab men on German women was made-up! what chance this gets the same publicity as the original phony outrage?

    123. Nana says:

      @Dorothy

      Glad you managed to get the article Dorothy albeit a worrying article, we need to be aware in order to pass on the information. I use chrome and have no problems opening the link, but I did have problems opening some links on my old machine.

      @Capella
      Sinister is right, I do wonder if anyone is looking into this but like you I’m not holding my breath either. I will watch the video when I manage to find time, lol

    124. Reluctant Nationalist says:

      Another positive to take from this: the majority of folk couldn’t give a toss about fitba. I wonder how many bloody HATE it.

    125. Capella says:

      Re Hidden Agenda – The Youtube video is strangely poor quality video. There is a second version which is wiped throughout.
      Guess the hidden agenda is “don’t watch it” !

      You can get it from Amazon though.

    126. Rod Robertson says:

      Let me declare straight away I am a Rangers man my old man took me to my first game when I was only 4
      They are my team nothing will ever change that,
      I like the team just do not like a lot of the fans and their WATP pish.
      I should also state I finest joined SNP in 1968
      That out the way I understand ,however disagree profoundly with RFC fans who allow the entire Rangers WATP thing to direct their entire life.
      This makes them blind to anything but Britain Queen and hatred of ROI.
      What I cannot understand or sympathies with is how any Celtic fan of Irish derivation and ,or Catholic faith can possibly vote for the British Unionists.
      In doing so thy give acceptance to being second class subjects of the crown.
      They endorse the bigotry that is still prevalent against RCs in Scotland and throughout U.K.
      Every time they vote for a British Party they say it is ok by me for you to discriminate against me ,my family and my entire religion.
      I really would like someone to explain to me how they can do that.

    127. Weechid says:

      Thepnr says:

      15 February, 2017 at 6:23 pm

      “Just in case anyone failed to notice 547 of the 1028 respondents said they didn’t support any team. That’ll be the women then ”

      Naw, that’ll be the middle class rugby supporters, says a sport hating, Yes voting woman:-)

    128. Hirop says:

      I don’t see the point in this except to alienate rangers supporters from coming over. Near 40% believe, that’s a heck of a chunk. Bears won’t change the result next time anymore than the 30% Celtic supporters committed to Unionism will. Anyone who views their politics through the prism of football is a fucking moron, and best left too it. Football breeds both a gang and herd mentality – it’s beneath this debate. Without coming over all ‘common weal’ – its the pensioners and wummin’folk we need to be persuading. This is wasted energy. Having said that I support wings belief in not giving a fuck what I think.

    129. Rock says:

      Robert Peffers,

      “By Rocks way of diagnosing why certain groups vote no could well be worked like this :-

      “The facts are that no chimpanzees voted NO. So most YES votes must be chimpanzees.”.”

      My way of diagnosing is exposing your shite and pedantry:

      Robert Peffers,

      “Being elderly does not automatically predispose people to become unionist.”

      Rock,

      “All known information suggests that the vast majority of the elderly in Scotland are unionist.”

      Fireproofjim,

      “For once I agree with Rock,”

    130. Rock says:

      Robert Peffers,

      “@Fireproofjim says: 15 February, 2017 at 10:29 pm:

      “For once I agree with Rock, god help me.”

      Oh! Come on! Fireproofjim!

      No one is disputing that there are more older folks that voted NO in the referendum. That is simply a fact as shown by the numbers.

      Where Rock and Co. are being so idiotic is by drawing the absolutely wrong conclusion from the absolutely correct facts.

      The claim that being old can predispose anyone to vote NO is plainly daft. Here is another indisputable fact – older folk tend to become more, “conservative”, (here conservative simple means resistant to change), with age.”

      Unlike your shite and pedantry, I am talking of the bottom line:

      “All known information suggests that the vast majority of the elderly in Scotland are unionist.”

    131. Rock says:

      Robert J. Sutherland,

      “Rock @ 23:11:
      … the sort of people the RIC was so successful in reaching, but not enough to win last time.

      A semi-myth. RIC may have helped to get people “out of hiding from the poll tax” and registered, but in the end most of these people didn’t bother to vote. Just look at the low turnout figures for Glasgow to see. And Glasgow voted yes anyway.”

      Would Glasgow and Dundee have voted Yes without the efforts of RIC?



    Comment - new users please read this page first for commenting rules. HTML tags like <i> and <b> are permitted. Use the live preview box. Include paragraph breaks or I WILL KILL YOU WITH HAMMERS.




    ↑ Top