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Wings Over Scotland


Knockout stages extended

Posted on May 21, 2013 by

A stunning piece in the Telegraph eventually ran away with the vote in our British Loony Of The Week poll at the weekend. But what we didn’t realise at the time was that we were in fact only conducting the first semi-final. We’ve got two more absolute crackers for you to enjoy today.

First up is some proper old-school dinosaur-left Nat-bashing from Tom Burns in the newspaper of trade union ASLEF, which we suspect was actually written in 1974 and just recycled with a few key names and dates changed ever since.

It’s a classic piece from a Labour trade unionist seemingly delighted with the current condition of the UK under a Tory Prime Minister, and the state of British democracy as a whole, culminating in a “solution” roughly as realistic as calling Batman. Drink it in:

aslef

But in the opposite corner we have something equally special, from Vincent Cooper in right-wing nutterblog The Commentator, and it’s hard not to admire the chutzpah of someone who dives straight in with the opening line “Nigel Farage is right”. Here goes:

——————————————————————————————————–

What is the point of Scottish nationalism?

Nigel Farage is right; anti-Englishness drives much of Scottish nationalism – and what’s the point of that?

Nigel Farage is right; anti-Englishness drives much of Scottish nationalism.

In fact Anglophobia has always been at the heart of all British Isles Celtic nationalism, particularly the Irish and Scottish varieties. Unlike French nationalism, for example, which is based on a positive view of French culture, Scottish and Irish nationalisms are largely based on a negative view of the ‘outsider’, meaning the English.

There are obvious historical reasons for this negative Celtic fringe view of the English. English dominance, both economic and cultural, has been so powerful it has hugely influenced the whole world, from America to Hong Kong to Australia and everywhere in between. With such world-wide influence, what chance of cultural individuality had the poor Celtic fringe of Scotland, Wales and Ireland?

But a curious fact here is that the English have never deliberately asserted any cultural superiority or identity over the Scots. English culture spread naturally, without any deliberate imperial policy.

James I of Scotland, for example, was writing English verse at a time when French was still the language of the English court. Indeed, Scots English, the language of Lowland Scotland, became a literary form in the writings of the Scottish nationalist of his day, John Barbour (1325-95).

What virtually finished off the Celtic identity of the British Isles was not any determined English imperialism, but the magnetic pull of England’s hugely dominant and superior economic and cultural force. What remains of Celtic culture today is largely a kitsch creation of Hollywood.

Throughout the last five hundred years, English dominance – exemplified economically in the Industrial Revolution and culturally in the English language in works such as the King James Bible and Shakespeare – became such a supreme achievement that it actually created much of the modern world.

The English language is universal. English common law and parliamentary institutions are to be found throughout the civilised world. And Scotland has contributed hugely to this. British influence would be the poorer without the works of David Hume and Adam Smith. But these men, certainly Hume, saw themselves as British, not Scottish,

And what is there to complain about? Why the Anglophobia of the Celtic fringe? Such cultural influences have happened throughout history, and usually constituted a civilising advance. Where would we be today without the civilising influence of Rome? The same question could be asked about England.

But there have always been those on the Celtic fringe who resented English cultural and economic dominance. It would be a surprise therefore if Scottish nationalism today did not contain a large element of disaffected Anglophobes, people who find it politically convenient to scapegoat and blame the English for every misfortune.

In fact, it’s hard to see that Scottish nationalism today has much to offer other than Anglophobia.

Throughout history, national independence has been based on either cultural identity or some form of economic advantage based on control of the national currency. But neither of these reasons applies to Alex Salmond’s proposed independence for Scotland.

The SNP is not demanding a revival of Scottish cultural nationalism; it is not demanding that Gaelic replace English as the first language, as happened in Ireland, something the Lallans Lowlander might well object to. So what’s the point of Scottish independence?

But it is on the currency issue that Mr. Salmond’s push for independence really falls down. What currency will an independent Scotland use?

Before the euro crisis, Alex Salmond was hugely impressed by the apparent success of the Irish “Celtic Tiger”. Mr. Salmond was convinced and wanted a “Celtic Lion” for Scotland.

Joy was unconfined. In 2008, Mr. Salmond spoke of an “arc of prosperity” covering Ireland, Iceland and Norway, and suggested Scotland could join this prosperous group by becoming independent. Oh, and Mr. Salmond also cheered to the rafters the great success of a great Scottish institution, the Royal Bank of Scotland, now bailed out by the British taxpayer.

Mr. Salmond’s new Scotland would also be socialist. A curious feature of Celtic nationalism is its left wing ideology. Capitalist England, it seems, is the cause of all our problems. The new Celtic Utopia would be different.

The SNP now has a policy of free third level education for all, including asylum seekers from around the world. All you have to do to qualify is live in Scotland for three years, even if that living is on welfare. But if you’re English and want to go to university in Scotland, you’ll have to pay, even though England greatly subsidises Scotland’s “free” education.

But the euro financial crisis has dealt a deadly blow to Mr. Salmond’s forward march to his Celtic dream.

An independent Scotland, Mr. Salmond now says, would not join the euro, discreetly back-pedalling on an important strategy. After all, it was the euro and Ireland’s economic miracle that first inspired Mr. Salmond. But back-pedalling is necessary canny politics because Mr. Salmond knows that a majority of Scots want to keep sterling. But where’s the independence in that?

Mr. Salmond now proposes that an independent Scotland would keep sterling, but under Bank of England supervision. In other words, the English and Welsh taxpayers would ultimately be responsible for any bailouts in a financial crisis, as they were with RBS.

All of this is a long way from the halcyon days of the Celtic Tiger. Economic reality has kicked in and Mr. Salmond’s romantic nationalism is now shown to be threadbare.

Scottish nationalists should accept that independence really does mean independence, and that means Scotland taking full responsibility for its affairs. But Mr. Salmond wants the best of both worlds: an independent Scotland with tax raising and borrowing powers but with the rest of the UK providing the financial security.

As the Chancellor George Osborne has pointed out, this would be a recipe for disaster. It is exactly the present arrangement within the eurozone, the very arrangement that bankrupted Ireland. The lesson of the eurozone is that you cannot have monetary union without fiscal and political integration.

The United Kingdom works. It is a monetary union with full integration of fiscal and political powers. And it has worked for centuries to the benefit of Scotland. So why break it for the defunct dreams of a nationalist?

——————————————————————————————————–

We have to admit it’s a tough choice this time, readers. Who hates Scottish people the most – is it the Scottish trade unionist furious that we’re even considering taking control of our own affairs, or the deranged right-wing English psycho angered that his culture hasn’t completely obliterated every last trace of anything Celtic? Take your time – the poll closes at midnight on Wednesday.

Who's the maddest?

  • Right-wing nutjob (66%, 404 Votes)
  • Trade union guy (34%, 211 Votes)

Total Voters: 615

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153 to “Knockout stages extended”

  1. Jiggsbro says:

    It has to be the right-wing nutjob, with his “they hate you because they’re jealous” line that sounds like a parent consoling their bullied child.

  2. Ericmac says:

    An absolute draw between these two.  But if it has to be on penalties, right-wing nut job.  
    Anglophobia, who knew.
     

  3. DMyers says:

    I find it hard to choose between the two.  One is an utterly lazy attempt at analysis, and the other seems to have been drinking a wee bitty too much of the magic mushroom tea.

  4. Linda's Back says:

    Can’t choose
    Aslef that will be a union that is happy that no high speed trains are coming further north than Manchester and happy that we are still waiting for the direct Eurostar connections to Europe we were promised in 1997 to win back passengers from airlines.
     
    Does Vincent Cooper also contribute to Scotsman and other web sites under numerous monikers who all display similar loathing of Scotland, the Scottish Parliament, Alex Salmond and the SNP.

  5. Fay-Yes says:

    Right-wing nut job for me. so many inaccuracies & misconceptions I wouldn’t know where to begin.

  6. deerokus says:

    As much as I consider myself a Francophile, it is very dishonest to say that French nationalism is somehow a purely positive view of French culture.  France  has a real problem with raicsm and integration of minorities in some of the major cities (mainly Marseille and Paris) for a number of reasons too long to go into here, and the FN is a popular and noxiously racist party.  Bfflibg statement.

  7. Dan777A says:

    has to be trade union guy. Right wing nutjob isnt scottish at that mindset is sadly rather typical….uncle tam on the other hand is takin the pish, he has no excuse not to know the reasons that motivate our cause

  8. David says:

    Had to laugh at the right-wing nut-job when he said “the English have never deliberately asserted any cultural superiority or identity over the Scots” and then went on talk about an historical example. Maybe he should look up the Dress Act of 1745 or perhaps learn about the armies that England used to send up here to kill, rape and pillage.

  9. Michael Granados says:

    Nutters all – This from Wikipedia on the origin of the word Welsh “The name Welsh originated as an exonym given to its speakers by the Anglo-Saxons, meaning “foreign speech” (see Walha). The native term for the language is Cymraeg, and Cymrufor “Wales”.”

  10. Shinty says:

    Couldn’t decide on the last two and now this. Truth is they all make me mad.
    As my mother used to say ‘Good Gordon Highlanders, whatever next!

  11. Rev. Stuart Campbell says:

    “As much as I consider myself a Francophile, it is very dishonest to say that French nationalism is somehow a purely positive view of French culture. France has a real problem with raicsm and integration of minorities in some of the major cities (mainly Marseille and Paris) for a number of reasons too long to go into here, and the FN is a popular and noxiously racist party. Bfflibg statement.”

    It’s definitely pretty bfflibg 😉

    Wasn’t Le Pen once in the run-off to be French president or something?

  12. HighlandMartin says:

    Found The Commentator article, although nuts, certainly more creepy than Thomas DeTankeness’s version. 

  13. TheeForsakenOne says:

    Got to go for the right-wing nutter purely on his shocking ignorance of current society as well as his history. Never have I seen so much revisionism in such a small space.

    Also the almost annual race riots in Paris would somewhat disagree with his statement on French nationalism.

  14. Iain More says:

    0-0 DRAW for me, they have gone through extra time and they are now taking penalties but the ref says the GK Salmond keps moving so they have to take the penalties again and again and again ad in so and so!
    As far as I am concerned they are both nut jobs!!!!!
    So I didn’t vote.

  15. sneddon says:

    ASLEF members aren’t that stupid.  They’ll see Tom’s article for what it is.  An attempt to toe the labour line in hope of getting selected to stand for labour.  ASLEF members know that a real and sustainable investment in the railway ain’t gonna happen anytime soon (forget HS2-there’s more to a rail network than getting to london quicker) in the UK.  How many new lines have opened in England lately? None.  In Scotland we’re doing things to improve and expand the network.  Just think what we can do with 100% control of transport policy and investment.  Fuck Tom and his ilk.  Come 2014 they’re out the window.  So on that basis Tom is nut job winner  because I found the other article more funny in a sort of laugh and point way.

  16. Right wing nut job takes it right at the death for me, for beginning the last paragraph with the line ‘The United Kingdom works.’ At least the trade union guy acknowledges that there is a problem that needs addressing, even if the suggested solutions is clearly mince.

  17. ochyes says:

    oh dear.  perhaps the ASLEF could explain why there are English SNP members , SNP members married into English families and SNP members with English children and grandchildren if it is such an anti-English party?

  18. ianbrotherhood says:

     
    Do these people get paid to write this shite, or do they actually do it off their own bat?
     
    I can’t pick one – a pox on them both.

  19. SophiaPangloss says:

    A wumman ah kent aye made her clootie dumplins by chuckin in everythin she could find, stirrin it a bit, an hopin fer the best…
    The trade union eedjit gets ma vote.

  20. pa_broon74 says:

    They’re as nutty as each other, normally I pick the right-wing candidate for generally lunacy but on this occasion; I can’t.
     
    Why do they even bother? How did they ever get into a position where they could spout that shite? Who put them there exactly? I’m tempted to vote for the right-winger for claiming England pays for Scottish Uni education, you’d have to be willfully ill-informed to still spout that crap.
     
    As for the lefty tossbag, we’ll see who mentions Bannockburn more, Nationalist or Unionists. The unionists are 1-0 up already.

  21. Doug Daniel says:

    That second one is an amazing piece of fiction. I particularly love this line: 
     
    “After all, it was the euro and Ireland’s economic miracle that first inspired Mr. Salmond.”
     
    Totally accurate, except for the fact that Alex Salmond became an SNP MP in 1987, 12 and a half years before the Euro was even introduced. Oh, and the fact he joined the SNP 14 years before that. Oh, and there’s the small fact that the SNP won its first MP before Alex Salmond was even born. And the party existed many years before that even. But yeah, apart from that, totally accurate!

  22. naebd says:

    I picked option Three – “didnt read lol“.

    This is the only option that allows me to preserve my sanity and moderate my blood pressure levels.

  23. Jamie Arriere says:

    Right-wing nutjob for me too – there’s just so much of the Scottish cultural literary and musical renaissance which happened alongside the growth of political nationalism which has completely passed him by. There’s a complete Roman v Barbarian discourse all the way through it which would take all day to dismantle – what he should realise is that cultural dominance fades eventually with economic decline and/or collapse. Once he realises that the UK decline is protracting, a few more pennies might drop. But with this idiot, I doubt it.

  24. Max says:

     
    So which one is the right wing nut job?
     
    Here is Tom Burns speaking about voting and the retention of power by Westminster  in March 2013,
     
    http://www.aslef.org.uk/files/135156/FileName/1303aslefjournal.pdf
     
    “My point is that until voters are able to see that their votes change things, they will continue with their current scepticism. So how do politicians achieve this reversal of disbelief?
    The first thing we must do is return power to Westminster. It is simply not good enough to have a supposedly sovereign legislature which is forced by (EU) treaty to accept 75% of primary legislation without any discussion at all.”
     
    Nigel Farage could have easily said the same.
     
    Is Mr Burns a swivel-eyed loon?

  25. David Smith says:

    I must admit, I came across Uncle Tom’s pile of shit in that article a few months ago in a railway mess room. Looking back now I can see it as the most cringeworthy of cringes but I wanted to set fire to the bloody rag there and then. 
    However, ‘Right Wing Nutter’s, ill informed and hubristic diatribe clinches it today. Like every single right winger I know he can recognise not a single shred of irony in his assertion of anti-Englishness whilst laying on the über-superiority of ‘his’ culture over everyone else.
    That for me earns him BSC of the Day*
     
    *Bat Shit Crazy.
    Other abbreviated phrases may additionally apply. 😉

  26. Bobby Mckail says:

    They are both arguing that Scots are Anti-English and ungrateful plebs/Scabs for wanting to rule themselves. They both do it from a platforms of a land that time forgot and it’s quite obvious no one has told them which year this actually is. Both as bad as each other.
     
     

  27. Doug Daniel says:

    Oh, and as for French nationalism, considering France has similar post-imperial existential issues, it’s no wonder he thinks French nationalism is positive while Scottish and Irish nationalism is negative.
     
    “Wasn’t Le Pen once in the run-off to be French president or something?”
     

    Yep, in the 2002 election, which resulted in Chirac getting the largest landslide in the final vote ever. Le Pen didn’t even do that much better than usual really (about 1.5% more, perhaps), but Jospin was such a dead loss that a load of other lefties stood in the first round, expecting to support him in the second round. Ended up splitting the vote and letting Le Pen in.
     
    Le Pen always got between 4 and 5 million votes, but that election gave France the shiters and the next time he only got 10% (less than 4 million). However, his daughter managed to get almost 6.5 million last year, which on paper makes it look like France has more racists than Scotland has people.
     
    It’s funny that someone who agrees with Nigel Farage should think that’s the GOOD type of nationalism…

  28. pmcrek says:

    I only got to the second paragraph of the second article before I sprayed vinegar in my eyes to provide relief, so I gotta vote number 2.

  29. Marcia says:

    The RMT leader Bob Crowe however is very much in the Yes camp; if he was on the electoral register in Scotland he would vote Yes.

  30. Tinyzeitgeist says:

    Do those who write articles like these ever re-read what they write before publishing? Does it not occur to them that the very essence of why we want our independence is perfectly outlined in their utterances. The ‘uncle’ Tom from ASLEF and Mr Cooper should keep up the good work!
    Very positive reasons why we don’t want to remain in the stinking union.

  31. Juan Bonnets says:

    Right-wing nutjob for being hilariously disconnected from reality. This paragraph particularly stood out:
    “The SNP now has a policy of free third level education for all, including asylum seekers from around the world. All you have to do to qualify is live in Scotland for three years, even if that living is on welfare. But if you’re English and want to go to university in Scotland, you’ll have to pay, even though England greatly subsidises Scotland’s “free” education.

     

    So many prejudices wrapped up in just three sentences. The denial of cultural imperialism made me LMAO, and this belter of historical revisionism sneaks in at the end as well:
    It is exactly the present arrangement within the eurozone, the very arrangement that bankrupted Ireland.”

    The trade union guy’s piece was boring by comparison, just the same old reheated scare stories, although he does also slip in the wee lie about university tuition fees. The right wing nutjob’s article is a laugh-a-minute treatise from a parallel universe, in fact I think Poe’s law applies strongly here (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Poe's_law).

  32. Rev. Stuart Campbell says:

    “Here is Tom Burns speaking about voting and the retention of power by Westminster in March 2013,”

    Awesome find. Nice work, Max!

  33. Jimbo says:

    I voted for the ASLEF guy, Burns – purely on the grounds that he should know better. The right-winger, Cooper, is obviously getting his info from Westminster/the Daily Mail/Telegraph and, in my opinion, is completely uninformed and clueless.
     
    Anyone who claims to be a Scot and a socialist and who’d rather have Tory rule, as opposed to self determination is, in my book, not a true socialist. I remember the 70s and 80s when all the trade union leaders ended up wealthy, while all the jobs in the car industry, ship yards, steel mills and coal mines, that they were supposedly there to protect, are long gone.

  34. deerokus says:

    It’s definitely pretty bfflibg 
    Wasn’t Le Pen once in the run-off to be French president or something?
     

    Phone typing failure :(.  Yeah in 2002, which lead to the amusing situation of Chirac getting over 82% of the vote as everyone non-racist on both left and right voted for him.

    Le Pen II, his daughter, has attempted to present herself as slightly more moderate, and  with some success.  She came third in last year’s election, with an 18% share of the vote, which was actually a higher share than her dad had got in either the first or second rounds in 2002.  French politics can be quite fun.

    Of course, despite all of that, they only have two seats in the French parliament, but for a party which is significantly to the right of any popular party in the UK including UKIP (and most especially Scotland), that’s quite a significant argument against his odd idea of French nationalism.  Maybe he’s getting confused with the more socialist/internationalist aspects of French national identity?

  35. Paul says:

    This sort of thing just makes me utterly despairing.  How are we supposed to win a public referendum when people with THIS level of self-delusion exist?

  36. Archibald Berwick Melrose [aka Archie] says:

      I had to laugh….popped into the local Newsagent to get a hard copy of the ‘Commentator’….GTF was the reply. Where to go?? Ah Airport must be good for a copy…..No joy. Spoke to the Manageress and this was the reply ‘We dinna stock shite on our shelves, especially when they want £5 pounds a copy’ So it was online to sift through the detritus and begging of a doomed publication. Is there anyone in Scotland who actually reads it? Raheem Kassam [Executive Ed.] treads a fine line in a previous article with his underhand comments on Prof Stephen Hawkins health. Alice Cooper should go play with the big boys and ‘try harder at school’ 

  37. scottish_skier says:

    According to Mrs SS, the French regularly vote for the right-wing candidate in the first round when they’re hacked off with the main candidates. Big thing among students/young people.
    Check out the level of support for the National Front in parliament etc if you want to see real levels. 3 out of 577 in the assembly I understand. 

  38. benarmine says:

    “My nation’s inherent cultural and intellectual superiority means I’m right, always and in every situation. Stay back you plebs.” Yep, that has to win this one, arrogance trumps stupidity every time.

  39. Gordon Hay says:

    Has to be the union man on points, because he is more likely to actually be read/heard by Scottish voters and therefore possibly convince them to accept his distorted perceptions.
    Right-wing nut-job is speaking to an audience already convinced by these spurious arguments so can’t do as much damage ultimately.
     

  40. Linda's Back says:

     ASLEF  have come out at against independence at their annual conference to-day and rumour is that is was as a result of a (unanimous) UK wide vote
    But Individual Scottish members did not get the right to vote on their “district” branch secretary’s decision”
    Can anyone investigate and verify this ASAP?

  41. G H Graham says:

    Print off one copy of each article on some cheap A4 paper and use each one in turn to wipe runny shite of a stray dog’s arse.
     
    Compare results by checking which one reads better.
     
    Hey presto, a winner !

  42. The Commentator chap is a complete right wing nutter. Had a brief look at some of their other stuff. Mad as a box of frogs. But I gave my vote to railman on the basis that as a Scot he should know better.

  43. annie says:

    David Smith – I know what you mean when I saw the Telegraph front page ” mortgages will be more expensive in an independent Scotland” this morning on the newspaper stand I wanted to throw it on the floor and jump up and down on it.  They are trying to drive us all mad.

  44. James Morton says:

    The right wing bloke wins it hands down. He is a product of some 30 years of Tories talking mince about Scotland being a subsidy junkie supported by the ever generous English. The tories have been trotting out this line to explain why their party keeps getting rejected at the polls. “It’s obvious” they say “They hated us because we tried to take away their benefits” “They hated thatcher because she was a bossy English women” “They have a council house mentality” “They are dependent on benefits paid for by Westminster” etc etc.
    You keep trotting out that crap long enough, people – especially rightwingnuts – will come to believe it completely and assume, wrongly, that they are somehow superior. It also shapes and forms their attitudes to the Scots and how they try to sell their policies. there is however one small flaw in this, it’s utter bollocks. There is an old software engineering phrase I remember that’s goes “Garbage in – Garbage out” Which means that if the data going into the program is flawed or erroneous you will get utter nonsense at the other end and most likely not be aware of it. And this pretty much sums up this article, the Union and the Unionist parties. 40 odd years of processing complete and utterly false information, acting on it, and wondering why you keep getting Scotland’s thumb in your eye.

  45. Breastplate says:

    I’m saving my vote for the next bundle of loonies because I’m sure we’re only at the group stages.

  46. Lianachan says:

    I voted for the trade union guy, as I feel he should know better.  Farage is just being himself.

  47. Inbhir Anainn says:

    As a member of another trade union for me it has to be the trade union guy.  Come 2014 the two of these numpties will choke on their own words big style.

  48. Luigi says:

    Ha Ha Ha Ha Ha Ha Ha. Marvellous. Thanks for giving me a great laugh. What a pair of twats. The right wing nutter shades it (just)!

  49. Luigi says:

    Don’t you just love it when people who know absolutely nothing about Scottish nationalism and the independence referendum start writing about it? It’s hilarious.

  50. Scott Douglas says:

    Right wing nut job is mad, whereas the union guy is simply sad and deluded.

  51. Holebender says:

    Trade Union guy wins for me! Right wing nutjobs will do what right wing nutjobs do, but a Scottish Trade Unionist ought to know better.
     
    Answer me this ASLEF man; the UK has had 300 years to reform itself into the highly devolved state you dream of. Why hasn’t it done so, and how much longer should we wait for it to happen? Also, how far into the future do you expect Alex Salmond to commit Scotland to the monarchy? Shouldn’t democratically elected governments of the future have a say?

  52. Archibald Berwick Melrose [aka Archie] says:

    Celtic Fringe,
    Celtic Utopia
    Celtic Lion
    Celtic Culture
    Celtic Identity
    Celtic Tiger
    All disappeared with the magnetism of English dominance, the King James Bible and lets not forget William Shakespeare.  We should be grateful for the occasional nostalgic flashbacks of kilted Holywood movie stars. What a nutter!
     
     

  53. Peter A Bell says:

    I went for the right-wing nutjob solely on the grounds that fresh shite is far more revolting than dessicated deposits from the seventies.

  54. Inbhir Anainn says:

    OT and apologies
     
    Scotland’s Economy: the case for independence
     
    http://scotland.gov.uk/Resource/0042/00422987.pdf
     

  55. Donald Kerr says:

    Very, very disappointed in ASLEF.

  56. The Man in the Jar says:

    Utter; Utter crap from both of these clowns. Makes me wonder, what kind of lives these people must live. They obviously believe every word that they write? I hope that them and their kind are still around when an independent Scotland flourishes north of the border and little England struggles on with their insular neo-liberal right wing government.

  57. GP Walrus says:

    Definitely right wing nut job. I feel he has what it takes* to go all the way to the grand final.
     
    * he’s utterly barking

  58. Vronsky says:

    TU guy wins.  He knows he’s talking shite, but he knows that’s the way to climb the greasy pole. And we’ll be stuck with him and his like after independence. One suspects the Tory believes what he says, but he’s just a fascinating example of an alien species. 

  59. NorthBrit says:

    Unlike French nationalism, for example, which is based on a positive view of French culture, English nationalism is largely based on a negative view of the French:
    http://www.tate.org.uk/art/artworks/hogarth-o-the-roast-beef-of-old-england-the-gate-of-calais-n01464
    From Henry V to Hornblower and Sharpe, the English have defined themselves by their opposition to the French.  
    I would cite John Bull, but he was created by a Scot.

  60. heraldnomore says:

    meantime, who’s going to be the editor of theBBC’s £5m Referendum Unit?

  61. Jim Mitchell says:

    What ever the right wing nut job studied at school it wasn’t history or economics!

  62. orkers says:

    The word you’re searching for Peter is ‘coprolite’ …….. or as you say ancient shit.

  63. Mosstrooper says:

    I was thinking Vinny the English nut job then I read the previous by Tom (trust me, I’m your uncle) Burns so he gets my vote by a loose screw.
    Enter Matron stage right “now Tommy, now Vinny, take your medication and back on with your strait’jackets and into bed” Curtain falls.

  64. Bugger (the Panda) says:

    Which is the one worthy of the vote.
     
    For me it is a draw, they are both ends of a pantomime Horse which has an erse at both ends

  65. Yesitis says:

    Yeah, there`s a lot of shite doing the rounds.
    I read it from a dozen or so diehard Britnat Tories on Twitter. Actually, it`s sad to see Tories and Labour unionists sharing their disdain for all things Salmond and Scottishness in general.
    What is that all about?
     
    It`s like witnessing a dying corrupt culture, and to see it fighting, scratching and blindly lashing out in the hope blows are landed where damage can be done. It`s their just cause.
    These people have nothing in common with me.
     
     

  66. Davy says:

    I have to go with the “trade union neep” as he really should know better and trying to insult your ane folk with that old drivell really means your very cheap and ignorent.
    The right -wingers load of tripe, reminds me of a teenager copying all the old stories he can find and sticking them together at the last minute to hand in to school for some forgotten homework. Marks out of 10 (+ 0) must make an effort to do your own work, stop copying shite.
     
    If that is the best they can do, we will chop them off at the ‘Farage’s.
      

  67. cirsium says:

    I couldn’t work out if the TU guy was mad, bad or stupit.  The right wing nutter was clearly mad so I voted for him.

  68. Macart says:

    Great googly moogly, what a brace of barking at the moon raving loons.
     
    Jeez Rev, kudos for digging this pair up without the aid of a hazmat suit or safety net. My vote went to the right winger wingnut.

  69. AnneDon says:

    No, I can’t get a fag-paper between them on bonkersness.
    Actally on penalties, I’ll award it to the lefty, because the rightwinger is just a smug git mouthing the metroparochial cliched certainties of any Londoner, whereas, the lefty lives in Scotland so is having to go the extra mile to ignore reality.

  70. clochoderic says:

    Not completely OT – talking of right wing nutters and Uncle Tams:
     
      For the second time in a week everyone’s favourite forelock – tugging, cringing anti- Scottish sook, the self-loathing doyen of the Unionist press pack – Alan Cochrane – has been getting a total kicking BTL for his opinions in the Telegraph.
     Nothing new in that you may think, but this time he is getting it in the neck, not from Scots sick of his bawbaggery – but from his own soul mates from the right of the Tory party and UKIP.
     Can anyone think of a word which sums up the satisfaction at seeing such an ingratiating self – hater getting a mauling at the hands of those he tries so hard to please at the expense of his own people?
     
    http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/politics/10053889/The-Tory-Eurosceptics-childish-attempts-to-undermine-David-Cameron-are-beyond-comprehension.html
    and here
     
    http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/politics/conservative/10070608/The-headless-chicken-Tories-need-to-realise-that-David-Cameron-is-the-best-option-they-have.html

  71. Bugger (the Panda) says:

    Natural Justice?

  72. creag an tuirc says:

    O/T: I see the BBC news article ‘Scotland can afford independence’ has had its comments removed. There was about 800 earlier. Anyone have any idea what happened? Did it digress into an anti Scottish fest or was it an anti English fest? (oh wait that would have been all over the news)

  73. James Morton says:

    Peter A Bell says:
    21 May, 2013 at 5:33 pm

    I went for the right-wing nutjob solely on the grounds that fresh shite is far more revolting than dessicated deposits from the seventies.

    I wish there was a like button on this forum 🙂

  74. antmcg says:

    Going on the fact that in the first article, they cannot spell HOLYROOD… I would have to vote for them… but then again I haven’t read the second article yet 🙂

  75. EdinScot says:

    A couple  of extracts was all i could manage, sorry Rev.  My ‘no more bullshit’ barometer wouldnt allow me to  plough  on  in  their vile myre.  I say they cancel each other out but the fact that the aslef guy would do  down his  own country folk  means he deserves the vote.  ”Matron – up their dosage, pronto”!

  76. handclapping says:

    OMG To think somebody actually passed him fit to drive trains! It must have been an Atos job. If found please return to Carstairs, but rather sad.
    No I went for the right winjer wondering why all the pink has vanished from his school atlas and unable to see himself as the cause. Even if you put him in Broadmoor, he’d never make the OED, much more a joyful Hogarthian viewing of a Bedlam inmate

  77. Red squirrel says:

    BBC comments: should we stay or should we go? Britnats – please make up your minds.
    usual anti-Scottish comments – wish someone would do a study of % telling us to get lost & % telling us we can’t leave.  That would be much more interesting than small opinion polls. 
    I’m all for free speech –  I don’t mind the swearing, the complete mince that’s spouted as great opinion, even the insults are fine, but honestly the illiteracy is driving me mad! Someone please send the union a spellchecker, it’s a national emergency.

  78. Jock McDonnell says:

    Dunno, not sure either are mad, just coldly trying to hang on to the meal ticket, but for a contribution of apparently foaming, deranged, arrogant, xenophobic, self defeating delusions it has to be Vernon.

  79. Edo says:

    I see Farage comments like this analogy for independence and the supposed anti-English nonsense:
     
    You’re a hostage.  Your being tortured by bleeding every last ounce of blood left in your veins.  Not too much to kill you though as the hostage taker needs a never ending supply of blood.  You dont like the hostage taker and have some animosity towards them for what they are doing to you.
     
    The hostage taker is English.
     
    I dont hate him because he is English…I hate him because he is killing me.

  80. Lobeydosser says:

     
    creag an tuirc. There was about 1800 when I last looked at 6ish. And yes most of them want us gone. I feel so sad and unloved now  🙂

  81. Sunshine on Crieff says:

    It was a close call, but I’ve gone for the ASLEF member. The right-wing nutjob is clearly repeating popular (and widely believed) myths about his own culture’s superiority, but he is clearly as mad as a bag of cut snakes.
    The other guy, as a trade unionist, and a Scottish trade unionist at that, should know better. So much wrong with his piece, but one piece of misinformation caught my attention:-
    “The conclusion I arrive at – sadly – is that the SNP is not a nationalist party. It is an anti-English party whose raison-d’etre is little more than a tea-towel slogan or a football chant. Otherwise why would the Scottish government have implemented a policy which discriminates only against English students wishing to study in Scotland?”

    If the SNP were in any way anti- any nationality or ethnic group I wouldn’t go anywhere near them, and they are certainly not anti-English. Alex Salmond must be a candidate for the most Anglophile Scot in the country, as I’m sure his many English friends and acquaintances would agree.

    And the no tuition fee policy does not discriminate “only against English students”. My wife is English and I am half-English, yet if we decided to study at a Scottish institution we would not be discriminated against – we would pay no tuition fees. It is a policy based upon normal residence, not nationality. Also, both Welsh and Northern Irish based students have to pay tuition fees when studying in Scotland. Why then does Burns single out English residents? Is it because it sounds more dramatic? Or that it backs up his malicious anti-English thesis? Whatever the reason, he is utterly wrong.

    No. It is one thing for right-wing idiots from outwith Scotland to use such arguments. It is quite another for a Scottish trade unionist to use the language of those who oppose the interests of both Scotland and its people.

  82. NorthBrit says:

    @clochoderic
    I’ve never enjoyed a Cochrane comments section so much – particularly enjoyed the commentator accusing him of using the insulting language of the Left.
    I note that one of them used the Q word (about Cameron).  
    Not just Cochrane, posters like orraquine also having a torrid time.

  83. Neil Mackenzie says:

    It was neck and neck up to the last couple of paragraphs from the Trade Union Guy. Taking the parliament on tour clinched it for me on the ‘maddest’ criteria. 

  84. Sunshine on Crieff says:

    Hah! I’ve just read the question again and it clearly asks who is the maddest. Right-wing nutjob is quite clearly away with the fairies so he is the maddest. Burns is the baddest!

  85. velofello says:

    Thanks Rev for the practise session on speed reading.
    The union guy was arguably writing whatever he believed would help further his greasy pole aspirations, his article possibly been proofread by The Defense Shadow Minister, Rt Hon Jim Murphy.
    The rightwing nut job may well be someone in their very early teens?

  86. Voted for Right Wing Nutter. But judging by the comments on the torygraph, there are a lot of them about. Thank god for Alex Salmond and WoS, a little oasis away from the the nutters who post on ALL of the main “quality” broadsheet newspaper comments, whenever the word Scotland appears in the headlines.

  87. scottish_skier says:

    I’ve never got the whole ‘Support for Scottish independence is an anti-English thing’ approach.

    How unionists think this would decrease support for Scottish independence I’ve no idea.

    What it does is increase support for independence whilst possibly making some folk reticent about stating they support independence publicly. They’ll still quietly go to the ballot box and vote Yes. After all, they know they’re not anti-English. And they’d know best wouldn’t they. 

    Voted for thick as mince right-wing nut job. A tough one, but just did it for me in the gormless drivel stakes.

  88. HandandShrimp says:

    I believe the Aslef chap is wrong and therefore his analysis is wrong. It isn’t wrong to be wrong.
     
    The right wing nutter is just trolling and obvious troll is too obvious to care about. However, it is the latter that drips hate like poison not the former.

  89. Triangular Ears says:

    Rev, you’ve said “Tom Bruce” but it’s “Tom Burns” is it not?

  90. Dave Smith says:

    You’re right, but he missed ‘Uncle’ off the front! 😉

  91. BuckieBraes says:

    Vronsky says:
    21 May, 2013 at 5:54 pm

    TU guy wins.  He knows he’s talking shite, but he knows that’s the way to climb the greasy pole. And we’ll be stuck with him and his like after independence.
     
    Believe me, people like that are such timeservers that come independence they will have no shame about hopping off their Britnat bandwagon on to one marked ‘Patriotic Scot All Along’.
     
    Anyway I was just having a wee think there, and in my experience the worst anti-English sentiments I have ever heard have invariably come from the mouths not of independence supporters, but of Unionists. Now there’s a paradox for you.

  92. Max says:

    “ASLEF first union to back Scotland in UK”
     
    http://www.aslef.org.uk/information/135579/aslef_first_union_to_back_scotland_in_uk/
     
    I would like to nominate ASLEF’s officer in Scotland, Kevin Lindsay for this statement at the union’s conference conference in Edinburgh. 
     
    “I want a United Kingdom that delivers for the working-class people of this country,’ he said, as he urged, ‘Let’s not put borders up, because borders divide people.”
     
    Here was me thinking that the class war was over. 

  93. Hetty says:

    I felt really very sick reading this, the blatant arrogant lies, get me a bucket. I hail from the NE of England, where people have been beaten and lied to and made to feel useless and small for a very long time, thing is they lack a sense of identity really, sadly, unlike the people of Scotland. Scotland’s cultural and educational and intellectual acheivements are to be much applauded and celebrated. Any attempt to deny Scottish folk their identity and culture, is an act of cultural and political jealousy. Scotland has a unique, versatile and forward thinking population which can be embraced and developed, but this is quite clearly questionable with a westminster southern admin/regime…

  94. Dave Smith says:

    If I was on the footplate, I’d be transferring to RMT now!

  95. Dave Smith says:

    Hetty. I’m very, very sympathetic to the North East’s cause. I hope there will be an ‘independence dividend’ for that abused and neglected corner of England.

  96. Max says:

    More from Kevin Lindsay at the ASLEF conference
     
    “Some delegates were wary of affiliating to the ‘Better Together’ campaign as it had funding from Conservative Party donors – but Kevin ( Lindsay ) refuted this. ”
     
    ….. and they let these people drive trains.

  97. HandandShrimp says:

    Max
     
    If he doesn’t think Taylor is a Tory donor he shouldn’t be left alone with scissors never mind be allowed to drive trains.

  98. http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-scotland-politics-22609982
    The BBC has announced a new £5m investment package to help boost its coverage of the Scottish independence referendum.
     
    Does this come out of the BT spending cap, do we think?

  99. Jiggsbro says:

    “I want a United Kingdom that delivers for the working-class people of this country,’ he said, as he urged, ‘Let’s not put borders up, because borders divide people.”
     
    You can’t have a United Kingdom without borders, Kev. You fud.

  100. Rev. Stuart Campbell says:

    “Rev, you’ve said “Tom Bruce” but it’s “Tom Burns” is it not?”

    I HAVE NO IDEA TO WHAT YOU ARE REFERRING.

  101. fordie says:

    A plague on both your houses. I can never decide who hates Scotland, and those who live here, more. Right wing Tory types or Scottish Labour unionists. I err on the Labour side. Where does this hatred – and it is a hatred – derive from. I remember having a talk many yrs ago with my boss – a fab Cockney – in a pub in London about an Independent Scotland. Also there were 2 other folks, born in England but lived and worked and raised their children in Scotland. (To note we  all  worked in Glasgow and were in London for a meeting). All fab people who wanted to understand my desire for Independence. I pointed out that, given the large majority of the UK lived in/were English, why would the interests of Scotland be to the fore. Lightbulb moment for them all. Thinking reasonable people, of course. My boss in a later conversation asked again – told him I couldn’t decide who had done most damage to Scotland. The Tories in Westminster or the Labour Party in Scotland.

  102. Adrian B says:

    Tom Burns reads from a Labour party in Scotland point of view – odd twisted logic that Duncan Hothersall and Ken MacIntosh would approve of. Well they are not going to get elected any time soon, so I am not to worried about this just at the moment. It will need to be delt with soon as its a load of Labour rubbish.
     
    The second offering is not actually about Scottish Nationalism. Its about British Nationalism and how the British (English) down south view the Scots. Their problem is that we don’t have the same values, we don’t think or vote in the same way, nor do we participate in this Britishness that down south is becoming Englishness.
    What author number one and two do share is a willingness to act in a way which is against the improvement of Scots and of Scotland as a country in its own right. But Labour want devolution, well we tried that, its not been a complete failure as it will soon bring about Independence.
     
    My vote went to the swivel eyed loon on this occasion. First we get out of the Union in 2014. Secondly in 2016 we get to vote against Labour for a further 5 years.

  103. Fairliered says:

    A close call! The ASLEF guy won marginally as the steam gushed further out of my ears when I read his rubbish than when I read the right wing nutjob’s rubbish. The clincher was when the Largs trains were cancelled A G A I N!!!!
    In an independent Scotland, the Largs trains will never be cancelled and the Ayr passengers will have to wait for a non existent bus at Kilwinning!
    Back to reality, it is just so sad and depressing that articles like the ones we are voting on are allowed to be published. Replace Scotland and Scots by Romania / Romanians, Nigeria / Nigerians, or any other nationality, and the Race Relations folk would be mortified! It is depressing and degrading to be part of the only country in the world that race relations legislation does not apply to. However, after 2014, it will apply, as we will be an independent country.

  104. Morag says:

    HandandShrimp said:
    Max

    If he doesn’t think Taylor is a Tory donor he shouldn’t be left alone with scissors never mind be allowed to drive trains.
     
    I think the problem may be that Kevin Lindsay doesn’t understand the difference between “to refute” and “to deny”.

  105. Angus McPhee says:

    Its true, I hate fishing.

  106. Dcanmore says:

    Sorry I’m late to the party but there is something odd about that article …
    http://www.aslef.org.uk/information/135579/aslef_first_union_to_back_scotland_in_uk/
     
    It says that Kevin Lindsay addressed ASLEF members from all over the UK, does that mean the vote taken to back Scotland in the Union came from all members from other parts of the UK too? Was the vote representative of Scottish members? If you look at the ‘likes’ at the bottom of the page, it is currently running at -85% … I think a few are pissed off at the outcome of the ‘vote’!

  107. Adrian B says:

    @ Dcanmore,
     
    Well I just added my vote to the poll, so its not just open to members, anyone on the internet of any age in any country can vote in that poll. Doesn’t do any harm to add your thoughts. 🙂

  108. molly says:

    I’m confused as well by the ‘delegate’ who is he/she referring to when they talk about “replacing a right wing Govt at Westminster with a right wing Govt at Holyrood ?
    Even the most died in the wool Labour supporter must recognise ,free prescriptions,free tuition fees, maintaining the NHS are not policies of a right wing Govt or are we going to have every ‘UK’ trade union hold their annual conference in Scotland between now and next September , and try and tell us otherwise?
    God, have I woken up in the 1970s ? 
     
     

  109. Taranaich says:

    Oh, in the name of the wee man… I realise it’s pointless, I realise most people with even the merest knowledge of history will already know how wrong that second article is, but for the sake of my own sanity I’m going to have to vent.

        In fact Anglophobia has always been at the heart of all British Isles Celtic nationalism, particularly the Irish and Scottish varieties. Unlike French nationalism, for example, which is based on a positive view of French culture, Scottish and Irish nationalisms are largely based on a negative view of the ‘outsider’, meaning the English.
     
    See deerekus’ response above. In addition, though it may seem extremely gauche to do so, I would say that ethnic nationalism has an inherent xenophobic continent – and thus, you could easily say “xenophobia has always been at the heart of British nationalism,” and Scotophobia/Hibernophobia at the heart of English nationalism. But of course, that’s ethnic nationalism, not civic nationalism, which is a different thing altogether.

        There are obvious historical reasons for this negative Celtic fringe view of the English. English dominance, both economic and cultural, has been so powerful it has hugely influenced the whole world, from America to Hong Kong to Australia and everywhere in between. With such world-wide influence, what chance of cultural individuality had the poor Celtic fringe of Scotland, Wales and Ireland?
     
    Has Mr Cooper ever visited Canada? The United States? Poland?  Or anywhere with a significant population of Scottish/Irish/Welsh diaspora? Because I’m pretty sure plenty of countries are willing to speak of the “cultural individuality” of Scotland, Wales and Ireland. Plus, love how he completely ignores English political and military dominance, which were at least as important as economics and culture.

        But a curious fact here is that the English have never deliberately asserted any cultural superiority or identity over the Scots. English culture spread naturally, without any deliberate imperial policy.
     
    INCORRECT. William Camden, royal historian for Elizabeth and one of the most celebrated English historians, described the Scots in 1586’s Brittania (the first modern historical and topographical survey of the British Isles) as savages which drank the blood of the slain, and even each other, who believed that the more they killed, the greater honour was gained. This perception of the early modern Scots being wild, lawless barbarians in supposed historical accounts was perpetuated throughout the 17th to the 19th centuries.
     
    Anti-Jacobite propaganda frequently descended into plainly Anti-Scottish propaganda (“An Address to All True Englishmen” being a popular pamphlet), due to Charles’ appropriation of the Gaelic populace for the Jacobite cause: the legend of Sawney Bean in particular continuing the tradition of Scottish cannibalism. Anti-Scottish medallions were minted, the Whigs initiated a campaign depicting the Scots as (you guessed it) backwards barbarians, and the new English (and current British) national anthem contained this verse during the late 18th Century:
     
    Lord, grant that Marshal Wade,May by thy mighty aid,Victory bring.May he sedition hush,And like a torrent rush,Rebellious Scots to crush,God save the King.
     
    In the early 1600s, the Penal Laws outlawing Gaelic custom in Ireland, were introduced. In 1746, the Dress Act came into force in Scotland: all Highland dress, including the kilt, was outlawed, with punishment starting at six months imprisonment – an act deliberately imposed to suppress Gaelic culture. It lasted until 1782.

        James I of Scotland, for example, was writing English verse at a time when French was still the language of the English court. Indeed, Scots English, the language of Lowland Scotland, became a literary form in the writings of the Scottish nationalist of his day, John Barbour (1325-95).
     
    Hardly a ringing endorsement for the English court, is it?
     

        What virtually finished off the Celtic identity of the British Isles was not any determined English imperialism, but the magnetic pull of England’s hugely dominant and superior economic and cultural force. What remains of Celtic culture today is largely a kitsch creation of Hollywood.
     
    See above: complete balderdash.

        Throughout the last five hundred years, English dominance – exemplified economically in the Industrial Revolution and culturally in the English language in works such as the King James Bible and Shakespeare – became such a supreme achievement that it actually created much of the modern world.
     
    There appears to be some conflation going on with “English” and “British,” since all those things mentioned aside from Shakespeare happened in the auspices of the British Empire. In any case, since when was the Industrial Revolution the sole domain of the English? There were significant contributions from the Scots, Welsh and Irish: “British” dominance I can see, but “English” is only part of the story.
     
    And I don’t even need to bring up the atrocities enacted by the British Empire (of which the Scots, Welsh and Irish were regrettably party to) when it comes to “creating the modern world.”
     
    The English language is universal. English common law and parliamentary institutions are to be found throughout the civilised world. And Scotland has contributed hugely to this. British influence would be the poorer without the works of David Hume and Adam Smith. But these men, certainly Hume, saw themselves as British, not Scottish,
     
    So on the one hand, he’s talking about English language, English common law, English parliaments… then talks about British influence. Clearly English and British are synonyms for Mr Cooper – but “Scottish” and “British” are not. Interesting.
     
    And what is there to complain about? Why the Anglophobia of the Celtic fringe? Such cultural influences have happened throughout history, and usually constituted a civilising advance. Where would we be today without the civilising influence of Rome? The same question could be asked about England.
     
    The civilising influence of Rome. That says it all, doesn’t it? The man clearly believes in Manifest Destiny, that the cultural demolition and ethnic destruction of imperialism is a good thing for indigenous populations. One wonders what he thought of Spain’s “civilising influence” on Mexico, or the US’ “civilising influence” on the Native Americans.
     
    Of course, since the man’s talking history, of course Mr Cooper would know that as soon as the legions retracted from Rome, their “civilising influence” was so strong that the province of Britannia… almost immediately split into scores of smaller kingdoms, with the kingdoms of Alba and England only truly asserting their dominance in the “civilised” manner of outright conquest a full five centuries later. Thanks, Romans!
     
    The SNP is not demanding a revival of Scottish cultural nationalism; it is not demanding that Gaelic replace English as the first language, as happened in Ireland, something the Lallans Lowlander might well object to. So what’s the point of Scottish independence?
     
    Political autonomy. That’s the point. That was the point of the Irish Independence movement too. And the Indian, American, Australia… pretty much any former British Empire holding that actually fought for it.
     
    Scottish nationalists should accept that independence really does mean independence, and that means Scotland taking full responsibility for its affairs.
     
    Show me a Scottish nationalist who not only doesn’t accept that, but doesn’t desire it with every fibre of their being. I suspect the only fibre I’ll find is the tattered rags draped over that insulting strawman you just produced.
     
    And it has worked for centuries to the benefit of Scotland.
     
    Highland Clearances. This is a direct result of what happens when the rich elite of two countries sell the common people out for their own benefit – and that started with the Act of Union. The union has worked for the rich, and those who believe “civilising influence” is a good thing that magically negates the centuries of bloodshed and cultural oppression that comes with empire. Like I suspect Mr Cooper is.
     
    … OK, I feel better.

  110. The Man in the Jar says:

    @Taranaich
    The English have always advocated freedom of speech and freedom of thought.
    Aye freedom to speak like an Englishman and to think like an Englishman!

  111. Shinty says:

    Red squirrel
    Someone please send the union a spellchecker, it’s a national emergency.
     
    And maybe a wee calculator too!

  112. john king says:

    trade union guy because he should know better 
    right wing nut job is what he is he’s no different from any other right wing nut job 

  113. john king says:

    And here’s me thinking when wee Alistair gets tired spouting the same old pish over and over again ad bloody nauseum, omg im going to die,
    then they’d wheel out the really big guns to knock us out, 
    and what to we get the loony with a rifle with a bend in the barrel for shooting round corners or the one who thinks if we could only get those pesky scotch to put smelly kippers on their submarines we can spot them when the seagulls flock to them and sink them,
    or maybe the guy with the round bomb that bounces, ? oh ? wait a minute that one worked, scrub that.
    anyway the level of attack is somewhere around our knees,
    be warned wear shinguards

  114. john king says:

    from the article on the aslef website
     
    “A delegate asked if there was any point in leaving a right-wing Westminster government to get a right-wing Holyrood government. ‘I think too many people got carried away watching Braveheart!’ he declared.”
     
    Thats it! I warned you all , no more braveheart shit I said didnt I warn you? 
    now you’ve really gone and done it wheres the woad?

  115. john king says:

     
    Dcanmore says:
    22 May, 2013 at 1:05 am

    Sorry I’m late to the party but there is something odd about that article …http://www.aslef.org.uk/information/135579/aslef_first_union_to_back_scotland_in_uk/ 
    have another look its now standing @ 90% thumbs downs and the stranger thing is not only is the vote open to all (I voted) but the number of voters correlated to the thumbs up and down because when I voted it went from 89% to 90% 
    knock yourselves out guys

  116. john king says:

     
    Seasick Dave says:
    22 May, 2013 at 1:54 am

    Is there still time for a late entry, Rev? http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uknews/scotland/10055247/Brown-will-still-be-hard-to-beat-in-a-question-of-trust.html

      can I just draw your attention to a remark a few down from the top
     
    “Nicola Sturgeon is the Yes team’s greatest asset, but she may be no match for the former prime minister ”
    ha ha ha ha ha ha cochers you never change do you? 
    let me tell you something,
    Sturgeon could dismantle that robot and turn him into a sandwich maker in ten minutes flat”
     
    your truly 

  117. Gizzit says:

    While I am comfortably insulated from the dripping venom  in Unionist propaganda pieces, I am beginning to get a little concerned.
     
    The relentless portrayal of all Scots as anti-English bigots is growing more strident and widespread.  It matters little to those of us living and working in Scotland, but I’d really hate for there to be a backlash against expat Scots.
    I wouldn’t care to be living and working south of the border right now.  Most people are sane and level-headed, but the tone and tenor of some of the more extreme anti-Independence articles (and comments) worries me.
     
     

  118. Taranaich says:

    True, Man in a Jar, though one only needs to look in the direction of Starkey and Schama to see this Anglocentric view of Britain is systemised and endemic.  And, of course, those very same “historians” praising the Glory of England are just as likely to ignore or downplay the contributions of the English, too, if it contradicts or undermines the actions & legacy of the English elite.
     
    As ever, it isn’t the English people who are the enemy, it’s the corrupt elite – and that goes for Scotland too.

  119. Gordon Bain says:

    Couldn’t read the whole of either so it’s a tie for me. O/T I know but BBC up to their usual tricks already this morning on BBC. It happened at 07:39 ish.

  120. Dee says:

    Gordon Bain what tricks?

  121. Dee says:

    Did you notice that there was no mention of SG policy on corporation tax,,, that it would be the lowest corporation tax in Western Europe.. Now that is of national interest but the GMS totally ignored it.  Pacific Quay , biased scumbags. 

  122. CB says:

    Despite the craziness (of the second piece in particular), the do both contain some valid points: where does the left stand in respect to an argument that Scotland alone will be richer, when it comes with the corresponding increased poverty for, at the very least, parts of England and Wales? And what is the point of independence from the UK if Scotland retains the Queen as head of state, the pound as currency, the idea of a central sovereign parliament – is that not just more of the same, to paraphrase Leigh French? An independent Scotland should be one allowed to imagine and create somethign truly independent of what came before, not just break the old and replace it with its own imitation. Why then is it so foolish for the Perth Union to argue that his change would be to devolve power to all of the regions? What is the proposed future; who will represent the people, what views will be represented, and how?
     
    Or we can focus on the fact that some maniac thinks the throbbing light of English culture, which created the world and shines out of all its holes clearly demonstrates why England should (and does praise be) rule everything around us.

  123. Rev. Stuart Campbell says:

    “Why then is it so foolish for the Perth Union to argue that his change would be to devolve power to all of the regions?”

    As a piece of philosophy? Nothing. But he’s deploying it as an argument against a Yes vote in the referendum, where his solution is not an option being offered to the Scottish people, and which has precisely no chance of ever being one in our lifetime. In context, he might as well say “Don’t vote Yes because it’ll make Santa Claus cry.”

  124. The Man in the Jar says:

    @Taranaich
    Shama I can live with but Starkey is a f*****g joke. How he can clam to be a historian and spout the bias crap that he dose and get away with it I don’t know. I saw him once on a panel / chat show and he declared with a straight face that “the only good thing ever to come out of Scotland is Scotch beef!”
    I am an acquaintance of Prof. Tony Polard and I know that he is a Scottish patriot but he doesn’t let his viewpoint taint any of his findings. History is about evidence and facts and should never be the subject of agendas. I can think of one European State that tried that in the 1930s and 40s where Starkey would have fitted right in.

  125. CameronB says:

    Taranaich says: 22 May, 2013 at 6:37 am

     
    “As ever, it isn’t the English people who are the enemy, it’s the corrupt elite – and that goes for Scotland too”.
     
    The stinking masses might not benefit from the set-up, but they(we) enable and sustain it. I do not mean this in the pejorative manner that it might appear, but they(we) appear to be bread that way. So let’s not lash out blindly at our (the British) system and our (Britain’s) establishment. Admittedly with some minor adjustments in the pantomime of power, England’s (Britain’s) oligarchical collectivism has served itself well, pretty much since the English state was established by William I (aka William the Conqueror). I wouldn’t care so much, but look at what they (the English), have done to their neighbor’s prospects and domestic relations.
     
    They may even have done it deliberately. 🙂
     
    Vote Yes for a modernity or even post-modernity. where the stinking masses can get a look in.

     

  126. Triangular Ears says:

    ““Rev, you’ve said “Tom Bruce” but it’s “Tom Burns” is it not?”
    I HAVE NO IDEA TO WHAT YOU ARE REFERRING.”

    When I read the article yesterday it said “Tom Bruce” in the second paragraph, but “Tom Burns” in the embedded ASLEF article.
    I was just pointing out an error.

  127. Macart says:

    @Gizzit
     
    “Most people are sane and level-headed, but the tone and tenor of some of the more extreme anti-Independence articles (and comments) worries me.”
     
    As it should if you’re any kind of decent tolerant human being. But who said the right wing, bat shit crazy columnists of the Torygraph, Express, Mail etc, etc, etc are decent human beings? These creatures thrive on creating demons for people to fear and hate. Its how the bastards make a living. Trying to explain to people online just what is inclusive civic nationalism or just plain old common weal is nigh on impossible. They let soundbite celebs, politicos and the media do their thinking for them. Basically they’re just lazy and looking for someone to rail against hence the thoughtless near trolling posts of even the saner ones. They tend to come across as just woefully ill informed.
     
    People always have choice in what they believe and how they act. They can let others do their thinking for them and be mindless drones or they can actually do some inquiring of their own and come to an informed view. 

  128. Rev. Stuart Campbell says:

    “When I read the article yesterday it said “Tom Bruce” in the second paragraph, but “Tom Burns” in the embedded ASLEF article.
    I was just pointing out an error.”

    Sorry, always forget new readers don’t know the running jokes 😀

  129. CameronB says:

    I DON’T KNOW WHAT YOU MEAN ABOUT RUNNING JOKES!

  130. Angus McPhee says:

    molly says:
     
    “I’m confused as well by the ‘delegate’ who is he/she referring to when they talk about “replacing a right wing Govt at Westminster with a right wing Govt at Holyrood ?”

    Is this an attempt to invoke the Idea that we should vote no as there’s a strong possibility we’ll have a Labour administration after the first elections?

  131. Gordon Bain says:

    @ Dee
    They were doing a piece about the apparently declining numbers of rarer Scottish species. David Millar was out in the field (literally I think) and had just started to highlight good news from Paul Wheelhouse(?). This was abruptly cut short by a “technical problem”. We were then taken immediately to the studio whee the female presenter summed up with something along the lines of the SNP government needing to re-prioritise wildlife (an implicit criticism of their priorities). Then Gary Robertson jumped to a new story which again was critical.
    The thing is, the wildlife story wasn’t heading towards a criticism of government policy at all but that’s how it ended up.
    i don’t know if its available via iplayer but I know I’m not paranoid.
    they really are out to get us.
    Hail Alba!

  132. Macart says:

    @Gizzit
     
    Got to add, I’ve spent the last two years online trying to be as inoffensive as possible when posting. Studiously avoided using swerry wurds, personal insults, and absolutely avoided bringing any form of ethnicity into this national convo. Basically what that gets you on any number of sites is a pile of abuse regardless. Just people blinded by whatever and looking for someone to shout at. Believe me Gizzit, when Scots independence has long gone off the media’s radar their columnists and these posters will just find someone else to hate and spout at. We’re just the current soup du jour.

  133. Max says:

     
    Kevin Lindsay responds;
     
    Kevin Lindsay ?@kevlindsayaslef3h
    Sad that cyber Nats are trying to abuse Aslef members over the democratic decision of our National conf gies peace and stop wasting our time
     

    How is the democratic reaction to the democratic decision by ASLEF getting on?
     
    http://www.aslef.org.uk/information/135579/aslef_first_union_to_back_scotland_in_uk/
     
    97% thumbs down, 3% thumbs up.
     
    For a union still fighting the class war of the 70s that is not good.
     

  134. Desimond says:

    Im confused….the man above says the SNP are Republican AND Catholics should fear for their lives according to George Galloway….what is it with the SNP and their ability to please the voting public yet upset the crackpots! 

  135. Jimbo says:

    Gizzit wrote: “The relentless portrayal of all Scots as anti-English bigots is growing more strident and widespread.”

     
    I think it’s an attempt to convince the 500,000 or so English people who live here that we want independence because we hate our English cousins,and a NO vote will put these independence seeking English haters in their place. If they can manage to convince them that that is the case, it’s hundreds of thousands of NO votes in the bag.
     
    I have commented before about the irresponsibility of those who peddle this racist lie. It is only a matter of time before some-one pro Scottish independence gets hurt (or worse). Those who recklessly promulgate the myth do so fully knowing, but not caring about, the consequences of their actions.
     
    It’s well past time that the YES camp raised the serious issue about the NO Camp’s racist propaganda, the reasons for it, and have it nipped in the bud.  If they don’t fight it, but instead sit back and allow it to go on, then I reckon they should be held just as culpable when some-one gets hurt.

  136. Max says:

    Frank McAveety of “Pie-gate” and “Dusky Maiden” fame responds to ASLEF’s Kevin Lindsay
     
    Frank McAveety ?@FMcAveety1h
    @kevlindsayaslef No doubt they will inform your drivers to get out of Scotland for such ‘betrayal’. But hey you do that for a living anyway!
     
    Nice touch of humour there Frank, but probably wasted on our Kevin.
     

  137. Training Day says:

    Just read ASLEF’s page. Mr Lindsay will not be troubling the scorers on Mastermind any time soon if he thinks that Ian Taylor and Better Together will be ‘delivering for the working class people of this country’. 

    As for the Braveheart comment, it does not logically follow from the previous sentence (unless of course Wallace was a ‘right-winger’).  Can I suggest that ASLEF avail themselves of a web writer with a command of basic argument construction?
     

  138. Mosstrooper says:

    What’s the big deal about carrying a passport?  don’t these people travel anywhere?
    “OOOO! I might have to take my passport if I go to England.”
    Aye or anywhere else on the planet, you divot.
    Oh wait a minute, I was forgetting the machine gun border posts manned by the Great Dictators Mac Stasi and the strip searches for contraband Stornoway black puddens. 

  139. Max says:

     
    Looks like it is kicking off with ASLEF’s Kevin Lindsay
     
    Alan O’D ?@Charnoski4m
    @kevlindsayaslef @Neil_FindlayMSP Did you ballot your members before voting on their behalf?
     
    Don’t be shy Kev, did you ballot your members? Isn’t that supposed to be true democracy?

  140. Dcanmore says:

    @Mosstrooper … 
    I’m pretty sure you have to carry a passport on RyanAir flights between Scotland and England already, been like that for a few years.

  141. Max says:

     
    ASLEF the gift the gives on giving.
     
    Blair MacDougall, Better Together writing in the ASLEF Journal, April 2013 (top read by the way), 
     
    http://www.aslef.org.uk/files/135295/FileName/1304journal.pdf
     
    If we separate,we may see the ludicrous situation where we have cross border services being run by two separate train operating companies, regulated by two different regulators and supported by two entirely separate investment programmes. In a country the size of the UK,how can this possibly be a sensible way to proceed?
     

    You could have point there Blair. How does it work in other smaller countries?
     
    Irish Republic and Northern Ireland – 13 direct daily rail journeys between Dublin and Belfast.
     
    Holland and Belgium – 59 direct daily rail journeys between Amsterdam and Brussels
     
    Czech Republic and Austria – 20 direct rail journeys between Prague and Vienna. 
     
    Yep, all these smaller countries are finding it impossible to maintain cross border services. 

  142. Triangular Ears says:

    Sorry, always forget new readers don’t know the running jokes ”
     
    I see.  Don’t quite understand the joke, but hey ho…

    (BTW, I’m not _that_ new a reader. Newish commenter, maybe…)

  143. Anon Sailor says:

    ASLEF has only 1500  members in Scotland!

  144. Adrian B says:

    @ Triangular Ears,
     
    When you see a comment like “I DON’T KNOW WHAT YOU MEAN”, then read it as thanks for spotting that, edited now, nothing to see here, please move along.
     
    Its a tongue in cheek comment – nothing to worry about.

  145. Max says:

    Johann Lamont speaks at ASLEF conference;
     
    http://www.aslef.org.uk/information/135575/the_second_day_of_the_aslef_conference/
     
    JOHANN LAMONT WANTS ‘REAL POLITICS’
    Johann Lamont, the leader of the Scottish Labour Party, said she didn’t – and no one should – underestimate the challenge of wining back the trust of the people of Scotland for Labour – and that includes many trade unionists.
    ‘I want trade unions to form the policies, not accept them. I want you to shape policies, not hear them from me. ‘
    She said unions should inform the argument about what a fairer Scotland can be. ‘I want real politics,’ she declared. ‘I am tired of fantasy world debates about an independent Scotland that is either the land of milk and honey or a place of doom and depression. I want real problems to be discussed – unemployment, education, too many life chances defined by the age of , better transport …’
    She declared, ‘Salmond wants to divide Scots and English. Cameron wants to divide between rich and poor. Falange wants to divide between people and immigrants.
    ‘I want to unite and progress.’
     

    “Doom and depression”? 
     
    Is this Lamont distancing herself from Better Together negativity?
     
    “Falange”?
     
    Why corrupt Farage’s name in this way? What is the connection Lamont is trying to make between a Spanish facist and a British bigot?

  146. Max says:

     
    Oh I forgot.
     
    Lamont, “I want you to shape policies, not hear them from me. ‘
     
    Scottish Labour still a policy free area.

  147. Angus McPhee says:

    So if everybody else wants division who is she going to discuss the real problems with? And  how does that work if you have a track record of mud slinging rather than co-operation?

  148. Max says:

     
    Our Kev responds;
     
    Kevin Lindsay ?@kevlindsayaslef1h
    Just to clarify for the cyber Nats, it was the elected lay member delegates that voted to support a NO vote in #indyref at Aslef
     
    Since most ASLEF members are generally apathetic when it comes to union ballots I suppose these duly elected lay member delegates are an unrepresentative bunch.
     
    Why didn’t ASLEF openly debate the independence question and ballot their 1500 Scottish members on the independence referendum? I would have been nice to ask.

  149. Max says:

     
    Our Kev causes a stushie;
     
    Kevin Lindsay ?@kevlindsayaslef18m
    @Motownclic @CllrNormanWork ordinary members made the decision including your branches rep at the #AAD13
     

    Did they now? You wouldn’t be fibbing now Kev? So were ordinary members involved in making this decision on independence?

  150. Can I propose a last-minute entry? Open Unionism appears to be NI based and has a Neo Nazi offshoot called British Unity which concerns itself mainly with the indyref in Scotland, mainly on Facebook. The article The Anglo-Centric Union by the terribly screwed-up Lucius Winslow is particularly hilarious in that he castigates Scots for describing our English cousins using the “derogatory” term Sassunach then goes on himself to refer to them as Saxons!

  151. Fay says:

    Don’t the French despise the English too ? The old roast beef.

  152. Open Unionism says:

    “Can I propose a last-minute entry? Open Unionism appears to be NI based and has a Neo Nazi offshoot called British Unity which concerns itself mainly with the indyref in Scotland, mainly on Facebook.”

    Delighted to hear of our nomination.

    More curious about our apparent “Neo Nazi offshoot”.
    Where is the connection with Open Unionism?

    FYI we have had writers with all kinds of political viewpoints writing for us including Irish, Scottish and English nationalists; as far as I am aware none of them are neo-nazis.
    But perhaps the definition of “neo-Nazi” is different on here?



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