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Wings Over Scotland


Keeping on keeping on

Posted on January 17, 2015 by

Some readers have been a bit dispirited by the findings of our Panelbase poll this week, which revealed a few quite socially-conservative views among the Scottish population and also found fairly small differences of opinion between Scots and the rest of the UK on a number of issues.

keepon

But to be downhearted about the findings is to miss a whole series of points.

Firstly, the differences of opinion are often rather more substantial than they look. It’s perhaps worth remembering that the independence referendum was decided by a gap of just 10 points, a victory Unionists persist in deeming a comprehensive and resounding one. On a whole bunch of important subjects including votes at 16 (35 points), nuclear weapons (16), the monarchy (20), workfare (15) and more, we found larger margins than that between Scots and the rUK.

But that’s a minor point. Scottish self-determination was never – for us, at any rate – about proving that Scots were more left-wing or more compassionate or just generally better than the English, Welsh or Irish. Chiefly, independence is a simple matter of democracy, and in that context our findings were important on two levels.

One is that the relatively small differences across the border aren’t because Scots are more right-wing than we thought, but because rUK voters are more left-wing. People across Britain want to see utility companies and railways nationalised, they want more renewable energy and less nuclear, they want electoral reform, higher wages and less snooping from the security services.

And the second, related, point is that we’re surprised by that because it isn’t reflected in the UK’s democracy. Time and time again, our poll found clear majority support for policies that are offered by NONE of the main Westminster parties, leaving people with no electoral means by which to achieve the sort of country they want.

With no remotely electable party offering a truly left-of-centre manifesto, such policies simply don’t feature on the radar of printed or broadcast public debate (particularly given the predominantly right-wing media), because what’s the point of debating something that isn’t going to happen because no party stands for it?

Let’s list a few examples. Please note that we don’t necessarily endorse the policies below – our point is simply an illustration of the democratic gulf between what the people want and what politicians are prepared to offer them.

NATIONALISE RAILWAYS
Public opinion: in favour
UK parties backing public view: NONE

NATIONALISE UTILITY COMPANIES
Public opinion: in favour
UK parties backing public view: NONE

RAISE MINIMUM WAGE TO LIVING WAGE
Public opinion: in favour
UK parties backing public view: NONE

THE DEATH PENALTY
Public opinion: in favour
UK parties backing public view: NONE

END TAX BREAKS FOR PRIVATE SCHOOLS
Public opinion: in favour
UK parties backing public view: NONE

CUTS TO WORKING-AGE BENEFITS
Public opinion: against
UK parties backing public view: NONE

BUILD MORE NUCLEAR POWER STATIONS
Public opinion: against
UK parties backing public view: NONE

VOTES AT 16
Public opinion: opposed
UK parties backing public view: Tories only

MORE PROPORTIONAL ELECTORAL SYSTEM
Public opinion: in favour
UK parties backing public view: Lib Dems, vaguely, sort of.

Those are just some of the ones that were covered in our own poll this week. There are many more, like House of Lords reform/abolition, opposition to privatisation of the Royal Mail and NHS, and to the HS2 rail project.

And in almost all cases, the margins are huge – electoral reform, for example, is backed by a colossal margin of 46 points in Scotland and 39 points in the rUK, which is in the region of a 70:30 landslide, and is wanted by a majority of supporters of every party, yet there’s no prospect of it happening for decades after the abomination that was the AV referendum.

For as long as Scotland remains in the UK, its people can do nothing about any of it. And to add insult to injury, even when Scots vote for whatever they regard as the best of a bad bunch, 60% of the time they don’t get it. It’s a double democratic deficit – not only governments that were overwhelmingly rejected at the ballot box, but even if you do get the one you voted for it won’t be offering the policies you actually want.

Independence in itself only offers a partial solution. But it would end the first part of that deficit forever, and with Holyrood already being a proportional-representation Parliament the scope to do something about the second part would be far greater.

(And of course, Scotland could escape the catastrophic trauma of being dragged out of the EU against its will. It would still be able to choose that path if it wanted to, but wouldn’t find itself in the worst of all possible worlds – voting to stay in and being forced into international isolation anyway.)

Scotland may not yet be the country we’d wish it to be. But in the UK it’ll be pulled further in the wrong direction, and Scots will be even more helpless to reverse that drift than everyone else. This is no time for independence supporters to lose heart. The consequences of giving up don’t bear thinking about.

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  1. 17 01 15 17:48

    Keeping on keeping on | Politics Scotland | Sc...

  2. 17 01 15 18:42

    Keeping on keeping on - Speymouth

164 to “Keeping on keeping on”

  1. annie says:

    Ahh – get it now.

  2. heedtracker says:

    If you do vote for Jim Murphy and his all new Slab con, you will get red and blue Tory Westminster running Holyrood. Its that simple for Scotland.

  3. Mat says:

    This is no time for independence supporters to lose heart.

    Perhaps a touch of momentum, but not for long. I’m sure I speak for many when I say it’s good – no, vital – that you’re along for the ride.

    At an event last week someone, during a chat about TTIP, opined that we might all be too late to change anything. I don’t think we are, but we’re definitely supping in the Last Chance Saloon.

  4. Ambrose Harper says:

    The power of an English based media cannot be underestimated – so ‘hurrah’ for sites like this. My Mother-in-Law for instance, an intelligent woman, holds with many of the prejudices reflected in the polls for unfortunately that is all she is fed on a daily basis.

  5. K1 says:

    Ayep, we must not lose hope…ever. There is much to play for and we are a bigger base since before the referendum.

    Imagine if we hadn’t had the referendum, would we have seen anything like the rise in numbers for the indy parties? Would we see the kind of consistent polling that shows Labour are finished in Scotland?

    We have a real chance in May to wipe these bastards from our political landscape, that is what I want, I’ll take my chances with the SNP knowing they have the interests of the people of this country at heart.

    Let’s get on with the job at hand and talk to as many as we can leading up to May, and neither be overly optimistic or overly pessimistic…by remaining steadfast in our common purpose to alter our prospects for the betterment of all of us…

    Thanks Stu, it’s good to see this outlined in a sane and rational way. Feet on the ground, heads up…onwards.

  6. Robert Peffers says:

    @Mat says: 17 January, 2015 at 5:13 pm:

    At an event last week someone, during a chat about TTIP, opined that we might all be too late to change anything. I don’t think we are, but we’re definitely supping in the Last Chance Saloon.

    Last chance? As long as it’s not Nae chance,

  7. Macart says:

    A curate’s egg set of results, but I’ve always been the glass half full type.

    Speaking of which… 🙂

  8. John Hackett says:

    Erm, Stu – the Greens are in favour of nationalising the railways. They have been for ages, and publically too.

    They’re also against further nuclear power – their policy is expressed in one sentence:

    “We will cancel construction of new nuclear stations and nuclear power will not be eligible for government subsidy; the Green Party opposes all nuclear power generation and is particularly opposed to the construction of new nuclear power stations, electricity from which is likely to be significantly more expensive per unit supplied than other low-carbon energy sources, and too slow to deploy to meet our pressing energy needs. ”

    Pretty certain they’re happy with electoral reform, lowering the voting age, a citizen’s income (which addresses the point on cutting welfare) and the living wage. Not sure about utilities, private schools, pretty certain they’re against the death penalty.

    Just saying.

  9. Ashley says:

    Never heard of the Greens? 8 of these are Green policy, obviously they are not in favour of the death penalty and is exactly why people should be voting for policy and not tactically.

  10. Steve B says:

    @Mat

    I guess for a lot of us there’s been an aspect of the mid Winter blues when after the frantic activity we’ve felt like passive observers to whats been going on politically.

    However, at least in my case, now the general election campaign is starting to kick off I am now feeling I am being able to start to make a positive contribution again.

    Although by definition any election campaign will not be as exciting or as electrifying as the referendum campaign I really think this election has the potential for shaking up both Scottish and UK politics and thus helping us achieve #indyref2 sooner than anyone could have thought possible in the dark days of late September.

  11. Jim Thomson says:

    The sentence that brings it home for me is

    Time and time again, our poll found clear majority support for policies that are offered by NONE of the main Westminster parties, leaving people with no electoral means by which to achieve the sort of country they want.

    Thanks for the clarity Stu.

  12. Marie clark says:

    Ah that’s better Rev. I didn’t comment at the time but I was getting depressed at everybody else getting depressed. Feel much better now.

    What is wrong in England in particular, that someone, somewhere, cannae grow a pair, stand up for what folk generally believe in and start their own party? Seriously why don’t they do it if they don’t like what’s on offer?

    Thank God that we had the referendum and people realise what we can do if we get up of our collective arses and do it.

  13. Peter A Bell says:

    I was neither surprised nor disappointed by the findings of the latest Wings Over Scotland polls comparing Scotland with the rest of the UK. In fact, the results seem to prove what I have always maintained. Namely, that the political culture in Scotland is different from that in England, not because of significant differences in attitudes, but because the democratic institutions and processes in Scotland better reflect the attitudes and priorities of the people than their counterparts in the rest of the UK.

    What should be of great concern to everybody in Scotland is the fact that this situation is intolerable to the British establishment. Empowered and emboldened by the referendum result, the British state will now do all in its power to eliminate Scotland’s distinctive political culture and bring us into line with England.

    The objective of the British parties is to create in Scotland a political system which serves the ruling elites of the British state at least as well as that in England.

    This is not to say that British politicians in Scotland are necessarily insincere or dishonest when they pay lip service to Scotland’s distinctive political culture. It’s just that they urge us to vote for them knowing that this will surely lead to the eradication of that distinctiveness because they consider the loss to the people of Scotland a price worth paying for the little bit of power and privilege with which the British state will reward them.

  14. Hoss Mackintosh says:

    Great analysis Rev Stu.

    Probably explains why the Green Party membership is going up by so much down south as they are the only true left wing alternative.

    Hopefully they will do well at GE but it is difficult under FPTP.

    That is also why they will not be in the leaders debates. Labour and the Lib-Dems will not want them there to show them up.

  15. Lollysmum says:

    Bow down to your IMPERIAL MASTERS stunt during Indyref was more spot on than we realised.

    Voting for a WM party is voting for your own slavery just so they (aristocracy, HoC, HoL, monarchy, etablishment, LIB,LAB/SLAB/CON/UKIP) can live the high life at your expense.

    Time to pull the wheels off the GRAVY TRAIN folks.

    Vote for a party you trust to look after the interests of Scotland GE2015

  16. Croompenstein says:

    OT Was over at my Dad’s today and had a read at the Retard to see if they had reported on Scotland’s Shame but was more angry when I read this story about the the FM having to step in to decry the ‘cybernats’.

    I saw the post the other day with this and thought at the time that it was a bit shit as any one familiar with this site will know that the fairiefromtheearth was moderated for using this type of language. I can’t remember who the poster was but it could be a false flag to give the unionists an excuse to re-open the cybernat pish.

    We will have to be vigilant for this type of post as Stu has been putting so much on lately that it’s hard to keep up.

    https://archive.today/BboKW

  17. Lochside says:

    Of course the British City of London/Military Complex offers little or anything to the electorate that they actively want…because the msm is the mouthpiece for Operation Fear.And complacency and switching off from politics has been the norm down south, in particular.

    However, because of the ‘Scottish Question’ being fought bravely over the decades by the SNP, the Scottish electorate has withstood the dumbing down and corrosive messages being force fed uk wide. Political action has been at its highest during the REF campaign and continues.

    Hence, the move amongst all classes in Scotland for self determination transcending sectional disagreements and fueling a growing disenchantment..full stop…with the UK State.
    45% of us actually voted to dissolve the Union, a staggering amount!.

    However, as was predicted, this has had a galvanising effect on the RUK. A combination of resentment at Scottish audacity and supposed subsidy status allied with a total alienation towards Establishment policies, has given the English the impetus to start turning against the status quo in an unprecedented way.

    For instance, UKIP are gaining many voters who just want change and who are not necessarily racist. Starved of proper opposition English voters are deserting to the only (poor and dangerous)option available.

    However, this movement although repulsive to most Scots is helping us to destabilise the UK Establishment. The problem is that no unity between UKIP and the SNP can ever occur apart from the objective of bringing down the UK

    So looking to the south for support is pointless. History tells us that in the last English civil war, the puritan revolutionaries sided with the Scots Presbyterians long enough to turn their guns upon and destroy the latter’s vain hope of their beliefs being adopted ‘nationally’.

    England’s glory will always trump Scottish aspiration.

    We must fight our corner always, but must continue to educate our electorate that hanging on to the vestiges of Empire such as Monarchy; nuclear defence; anti-immigration; austerity and punishment of the poor and the working poor will be the only way to shrug off our servile status. Waiting for others elsewhere is the forlorn dream of slaves.

  18. Bob Mack says:

    Quite funny Rev.The Unionist trolls on Facobook S.N.P. site, are quoting from your poll to show that not all Scots are content to change. You could not make it up!!

  19. One_Scot says:

    As far as I can recall I have wanted Scotland to be Independent since I was 11 years old when I had to advise my mother how she should vote in 1979.

    But the bottom line is, given my mother would have been around 31 years old at the time, if we are too stupid to be Independent, then we are too stupid to be Independent.

  20. Clyde1998 says:

    Did the poll you conduct include Scottish voting intentions?

  21. galamcennalath says:

    Peter A Bell says:
    The objective of the British parties is to create in Scotland a political system which serves the ruling elites of the British state at least as well as that in England.

    That is certainly how they saw (see?) devolution. A few token powers to Holyrood and a voting system which they believed would leave Unionists (Labour) in charge. The Unionist Holyrood administrations were expected to give Scotland a veneer of distinctiveness, but basically keep things in line with England.

    Devolution was deemed harmless to the Union, and might even supress Scots’ thoughts of great autonomy, even independence.

    They got that well and truly wrong, didn’t they!

    And, now they haven’t got any idea of how to get the genie back in their nice cosy controlled Unionist bottle. They will have a damned good try though.

  22. scottish_skier says:

    I’ve found this enormous gulf in opinion across the borders of the UK. Could not be more stark and probably is at the core of the UK’s constitutional crisis.

    http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-24302914

    It seems that in Scotland, the vast majority of people are Scottish (and not British). In England, most are English. I did some research, and it turns out that most people in France are French. Likewise, Danish in Denmark. I suspect a pattern emerging and that I will find this phenomenon is quite widespread. From what I’ve read so far, it’s the primary reason for the existence of nation states (as opposed to people being massively different in socio-economic opinion from one geographic area to another).

  23. Taranaich says:

    But that’s a minor point. Scottish self-determination was never – for us, at any rate – about proving that Scots were more left-wing or more compassionate or just generally better than the English, Welsh or Irish. Chiefly, independence is a simple matter of democracy, and in that context our findings were important on two levels.

    Thank you. It isn’t about proving we’re better, but proving that we are capable. Wanting to take control of your own affairs is not saying you’re “better” than anyone, or even that we’re different – in fact, I’d say it’s showing that we’re just like the people of any other country which makes its own decisions.

    We – as in those who think Scotland should have more powers – don’t want to be better than the English. We want to be better than we are right now. Is that so wrong?

    Scotland may not yet be the country we’d wish it to be. But in the UK it’ll be pulled further in the wrong direction, and Scots will be even more helpless to reverse that drift than everyone else. This is no time for independence supporters to lose heart. The consequences of giving up don’t bear thinking about.

    Still a hundred of us remain alive, eh?

  24. Lollysmum says:

    @ Peter A Bell-spot on analysis.

    @ John Hackett -read the text again. Stu was referring specifically to the MAIN Westminster based parties. With the best will in the world John, in May 2015, the Greens cannot be said to be a main WM based party unless a miracle was to happen. I’m not decrying the Greens in any way because I will be voting for them in England but for me they will be the best of a bad bunch. I can’t see them building up enough momentum in 4 months to pose a realistic challenge to WM parties. Sad but true.

    As I’m in England I have few choices:
    Don’t vote/Spoil my vote-can’t do that as people died to get me my vote-it would be an insult to them
    Cast my vote- I cannot in all conscience vote for LAB/CON/LIBDEM/UKIP so that leaves Greens

    Scotland has the chance to rid themselves of Westminster-I hope they take it.

  25. Hazel says:

    We don’t have to be on different pages politically for independence to be a good idea for Scotland. The Scandinavian countries share a broadly similar political outlook, but still have separate states. They don’t feel the need to be ruled from Stockholm for example.

    To me it’s positive that so many people in the rest of the UK support progressive policies. It means when Scotland does become independent there will be impetus for political cooperation between the countries. This is what we want – cooperation between equal parties which respect each other, not bullying and hectoring from Westminster to get Scotland back in line and keep us there.

  26. Alex Clark says:

    What the survey tells me is no surprise. Although the results for many topics find much agreement between Scotland and the rUK there is still a great deal of opposing points of view on any individual topic.

    The same applies even amongst those then vote for the same party though the difference is less marked.

    You see where I’m going with this? Even on Wings where we broadly hold the same opinion. i.e. the big picture we are bound to disagree on some subjects. This is healthy.

    For example I have no issues with nuclear power if properly regulated, it may in fact be less harmful in the long term than burning fossil fuels. Who can say for sure? No one.

    I see much of the “debate” as being peripheral, I support Independence primarily because I believe it would produce greater equality and more opportunity across Scotland.

    Not all may feel the same and I really wouldn’t expect them to.

    After all my opinion is just one of many and all are valid.

  27. Croompenstein says:

    OT – post has disappeared but basically the DR is rolling out the cybernat pish again because of a nutjob post the other day, we need to be wary of false flag posts and not give them any excuse..

    https://archive.today/BboKW

  28. Dr Jim says:

    I really enjoyed that, terrific piece Stu couldn’t add a thing even if i was wordy enough….of course you realise that makes you a Separatist, Insturgeont, Ultra Extremist Radical, even though you never hurt a soul
    Funny that?

  29. Alastair Naughton says:

    Regards the death penalty, although UKIP do not specifically spell it out on their website, many party members have been very vocal in the national media about their enthusiasm for the return of the death penalty. Nigel Farage has done or said nothing to discourage this, unfortunately. We must therefore assume that UKIP ARE in fact in favour of re-introduction of the death penalty, which will very likely be a big vote winner with Mr and Mrs Daily Mail 🙁

  30. heedtracker says:

    We want devo MAX. Which is why they cooked up THE VOW fraud. Crash Gordon says vote NO for a federal UK then he legged it. Its all fraud but if we vote SNP in May at least there could be a lot of leverage on the shysters.

    And they know it which is why the ultimate con artist, future Lord Jim Murphy was picked to shut it all down.

    Everyone will be happy, unless Murphy and the BBC do succeed in May. Red Tory boys like Murphy and BBC Scotland worked so hard with the blue tories to close down Scottish democracy by 18th Sept. So its up to the Scottish Tories to vote SLab but I’d rather be SNP than red tory.

    Here in England, Scotland is never mentioned now, ever. Scotland is being wiped clean off the teamGB mind set. The UKOK media fraudsters aren’t messing around this time.

    But none of their fraud changes the fact that Scotland wants Devo Max and the rule britannia union jocks and phoney nationalists in Slab can still drape Scotland with a giant union jack for another decade at least:D

  31. R-type Grunt says:

    Well said Rev. It’s helluva easy to get down in this country. We can win this very quickly.

  32. Croompenstein wrote: “DR is rolling out the cybernat pish again because of a nutjob post the other day, we need to be wary of false flag posts and not give them any excuse.”

    Yes, if they don’t have an excuse they’ll create one. You know, the odor of the alleged threats and the Record’s lightening response are redolent of a McTernan black-op, and the anti-Nat copy is in the style of Mcdougall.

    Give the hand-in-glove-puppet relationship between this Red Tory redtop and Labour’s Scottish branch, I would not be surprised were the jiggery-pokery afoot here.

    Just sayin’.

  33. Dr Jim says:

    I really wish NS had made no comment on the twitter thing, or at least worded it slightly differently, because the Daily Record does what it does best and distorts the story. I’m quite sure the First Minister condemned all abusive comments from wherever they originate but this particular paper makes it’s living from printing, let’s just say, “mistakes” and immediately portray it as an apology on behalf of her own supporters

    If these matters are to be addressed properly then the primary example must be set by the Media itself in it’s reporting of events for and against views held by all sides, it is they after all who have the prominance to express views in whichever fashion they choose, so therefore incumbent upon them to avoid language which may be found as to incite or to provoke the less fortunate who have of course no public exposure in the media except the outlet that Twitter or other such forums provide.

    Not knowing the context in which the aforementioned comment was made or indeed if it was one side or the other makes it even more nonsensical to even hint at an apology

    I myself of course have threatened to kill my children on several occasions, funnily enough they’re still alive and well as am i, having been subject to the same threat from my Fragrant lady wife

    My point is FM if there’s been a crime committed there are people who can do something about that ( i don’t mean Harvey keitel) Just because a person says a thing, or even writes a thing doesn’t make it so, or the Daily Record would be The Bible…Wooops sorry, thats not so either now is it..

  34. liz says:

    @Christian Wright – I agree this could be McTernan, he’s got form with this.

    That’s why I don’t think Nicola Sturgeon should step in and say it’s unacceptable again, she’s said it once , leave it at that.

  35. Helen says:

    Time and time again, our poll found clear majority support for policies that are offered by NONE of the main Westminster parties, leaving people with no electoral means by which to achieve the sort of country they want.

    The above sentence is exactly why so many are disenfranchised with politics, and why so many became politically engaged during the referendum debate.

    I would be interested to find out if the same results would be seen from political party members – do the parties even represent what their own members want?

  36. Rev. Stuart Campbell says:

    “the Greens”

    See “remotely electable”.

  37. Chitterinlicht says:

    Yup

  38. Croompenstein says:

    @Dr Jim – The hanging thing was a post on Wings the other day, I can’t remember what thread but I remember thinking at the time it was pretty bad. Any winger would know not to post shit like that as the fairiefromtheearth was moderated for such language. I can’t remember who the poster was but I think it could have been false flag to get the headlines the DR wanted.

  39. Knowing that the Rev is a poker player I have a sneaking suspicion that the union establishment is in for a shock at 10pm.

    OT: Tay2 Ally Bally’s Talk In at 11am in the morn about TV debates or anything else you wish to talk about.

  40. CameronB Brodie says:

    I wasn’t really surprised by the poll results, as we all share the same media. Though it has different faces north and south of the border, it is the same dangerous beast, at heart.

    Probably my most significant indyref revelation, is that I find I am a FUNDAMENTALIST. I believe the right to self-determination is the most precious of humanity’s aspirations, or ideals. There is no point in considering all the other things, unless you then have the subsequent opportunity to act on your decisions. Scots will never have that opportunity within the UK, which I fundamentally object too.

    Though terribly abused by the British Establishment, I think Scotland’s psyche has withstood the assault. Our reserves are growing and with a fresh impetus to our insurgency, the war is far from lost. 😉

  41. Alastair Naughton: “We must therefore assume that UKIP ARE in fact in favour of re-introduction of the death penalty, which will very likely be a big vote winner with Mr and Mrs Daily Mail”

    And a big vote winner with Mr and Mrs Daily Record. We are a broad church united in common cause to achieve a singular goal : Self Government for Scotland.

    One man’s populism is another man’s enfranchisement where his views and aspirations are reflected in the policies of his government.

    A judicious sprinkling of populism never did any party’s chances any harm at the ballot box. Advocacy of the reintroduction of the death penalty is a non-starter, but we must recognise that compromise in other areas of policy save Scotland’s autonomy, will present a more amenable face to those waivering voters who do not yet know how inclusive we really are.

  42. With regard to votes for 16/17 year olds. I wonder what the vote amongst men would have been if the question was whether women should be allowed to vote.

    If the majority of men said no would that mean it was correct to take away the right for women to vote?

  43. Paula Rose says:

    Delectable becomes electable.

  44. tartanfever says:

    Electoral reform is an odd one. Yes, the AV proposal was weak and backed by the newly toxic (2011) Lib Dems after the tuition fees fiasco.

    However, the result was overwhelming – 65% said No on a rubbish turnout.

    What voters completely failed to realise was that if they supported any kind of electoral reform they had to say Yes, even if the proposed AV system was highly flawed. All they have done now is allow any Westminster Govt (Tory or Labour) to say ‘ we’ve been there, the people said No, that’s that.’

    If we had said yes to AV, then the first change in decades on UK electoral systems would have taken place and given a platform for further change to be demanded.

    The overwhelming No vote has guaranteed that no platform actually exists.

    As electoral reform referendums rarely take place, 2011 was one of the very few chances for the ordinary voter to start making changes and denting the establishment. We decided not to do that.

    Facepalm.

  45. Alasdair Macdonald says:

    You are right to warn against Scottish exceptionalism. With the padigm of civil nationalism, most of us had moved beyond the “wha’s like us?”/”basturt English” baleful ness to the view that we in this place should rule ourselves. To delude ourselves if we think that there are not people in Scotland who have moderate right wing opinions.

    The Scottish Tory Party became an unattractive outdated irrelevance 25 years ago, in the same way as is happening to Scottish Labour now. The SNP has benefitted from both of these, as well as having more talented people tha Con and Lab do here. However, as is clear from Wings and other independence blogs that for many, support for SNP is conditional. It is too neoliberal for some and not enough for others. The Greens are beginning to provide a choice to the left, and possibly, SSP. There is still no reasonable option on the right, despite SLab’s mendacious efforts to position itself there.

    Even when Con/Lab were getting 95% of UK votes, the range of views of their supporters covered a very wide and overlapping spectrum. Opposition to capital punishment, for example, does not necessarily entail support for same sex marriage or a desire for greater market freedom. Scotland, despite changes to our demographic over the 308 years of Union and shared history with England, retained significant institutions which were vehicles for sustaining particular ways of thinking and processes, that there are still differences in our paradigms. There are also issues of geography, climate, population density, local histories, etc. These things exist in countries across the world. We in Scotland are no different: we are “a’Jock Tamson’s barns.”

  46. Electoral reform was never on the cards as it was was a ploy by the LibDems to say that they were different just like the garbage about home rule they are perfectly happy with things as they are.

  47. ronnie anderson says:

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wJVpihgwE18

    differant era same auld same

    We just have to get out of that place keep on keeping on.

  48. Annette says:

    Hello! The Greens are a UK party and they campaign for renationalisation of the railways, for the living wage, against nuclear power etc. Are you excluding them in the same way the MSM do?

  49. r esquierdo says:

    Is there any chance that Scotland will declare U.I. in the event of polling 50% or more in the G.E?

  50. manandboy says:

    There is an undeniable truth about this Union.
    England is, by a factor of 10, the stronger.
    This imbalance has led to an intrinsic temptation to the abuse of power.
    Historically, England has been unable to resist this temptation. Never more so than in the past fifty years when there begun the age of oil.

    the past

  51. fred blogger says:

    ok! mood buoyed.
    i feel sleepy now.
    🙂

  52. Craig Murray says:

    Brilliant work Stu,

    The scarey thing is that it is not only the UK where the political machines have been entirely overtaken to serve the corporatist agenda. In most of the western world except those who suffered the biggest economic jolt (Spain, Greece) there is a huge gap between the aspirations of people for society, and what the controlled mechanisms of the parties with a grip on power through corporatist media ownership, are offering.

  53. Brian Doonthetoon says:

    Re: Croompenstein’s comments above…

    https://archive.today/BboKW

    After reading it, I went back to a bookmark (BritNat Abuse Bot) that I hadn’t visited since the referendum.

    http://tinyurl.com/q5cg9hh

    Unfortunately, the wee bot was disabled (#5 is no longer alive) on 22nd September but its last captures are more of the same that went on for months.

  54. crisiscult says:

    this is a great post and one reason why this site is so effective: the Rev has a style of writing and a way of thinking that helps to rally many of us who find the concept of the UK these days pretty much unacceptable.

    I notice that the ‘poisoning of the well’ has started already (e.g. Daily Record cybernat story), well in advance of the election. This shows how nervous the establishment are. As I was saying to my local yes group, having yes groups that are not affiliated to a party means we can get literature out to the public that doesn’t need to toe a party line. It’s better for wings readers that we are not endorsed by any party. Our message is not ‘vote SNP’. Our message is: get angry, get very angry, get mad – some people are ruining your lives and the lives of future generations. What are you going to do about it?

  55. Craig Brown says:

    Great article Rev

  56. Albaman says:

    Thanks Stew, and Peter A Bell,
    You two summed the situation up in your own ways, but both made the points which we can all agree on.

  57. manandboy says:

    There is an undeniable truth about this Union.
    England is, by a factor of 10, the stronger.
    This imbalance has led to an intrinsic temptation to abuse the power.
    Historically, England has been unable to resist this temptation. Never more so than in the past fifty years whence begun the age of oil. For England this was a natural tragedy for the oil was in Scottish territorial waters.
    Temptation prevailed and England kept the oil – and the secret to itself. As Denis Healy confessed – ‘We had to lie to the Scots. We needed the oil money.’
    The 10 to 1 imbalance in England’s favour prevailed.

    Ever since, the union has been characterised by dishonesty and the abuse of power. Such a relationship depends on secrecy for it to continue.
    But the secret is out. The Scots know now what their ‘partner’ has been up to. The Scots know they have been betrayed by an unfaithful ‘husband’.
    This discovery has been a game changer.

    We know what has gone on and we are no longer prepared to put up with it – but the partner hasn’t wisened up. He thinks he can go on cheating, because he is bigger and stronger.

    The break up may take time, but it is going to happen. The foundation of trust has been destroyed. It’s over.

    You can bet on it.

  58. Croompenstein says:

    The worrying thing is that the Saddam quote was from a poster on Wings and not twitter so we have to be wary of this in the coming months, Wings has been slagged and sidelined enough from without so we have to watch out for enemies within.

  59. manandboy says:

    Tablets !!!

  60. ronnie anderson says:

    @Annette the knack of Wings is the reading & understanding what is being said.

    ( Are you excluding them in the same way the MSM do? ) & the answer to your ? no one has.

  61. Nana Smith says:

    Sorry if this has already been posted.

    MyFutureScotland Labour Campaign Mercilessly Hijacked By Scottish Indepedence Supporters

    https://archive.today/Tggld

  62. Natasha says:

    @Nana Smith 10.16pm
    Thanks, Nana, that really cheered me up! 🙂

  63. Sunday Times Scottish Poll:
    SNP 41%
    Labour 31%
    Conservatives 14%
    Ukip 7%
    Lib Dems 3%
    Others 3%
    (Panelbase. 1,007 voters. January 9th-14th)
    Sunday Times Scottish seats forecast:
    SNP 35 (+29)
    Labour 20 (-20)
    Conservatives 2 (+1)
    Lib Dems 2 (-9)
    (Panelbase. 1,007 voters. Jan 9-14

  64. Nana Smith says:

    @Croompenstein

    I think that post may be on the Crimes and punishment thread.

  65. Croompenstein says:

    @Nana – I remember reading it on my phone at work and thinking it was bad as fairie had been pulled up for similar language. I think Stu may have deleted it as I can’t find it so don’t know who posted it but I don’t think it was a regular winger

  66. Roger Mexico says:

    Information as per Nick Sutton

    Same dates and sample size as the Wings poll. Rev Stu’s obviously got that nice Mr Murdoch to pay for his voting intention questions.

  67. yesindyref2 says:

    Good summary and article. The problem is that even if, for instance, the UK Labour party presented a manifesto complete with all those points like nationalisation, the UK (middle England) wouldn’t vote for them. Social attitudes reflect one aspect of their views, but when it comes to vote in an election they neither believe in the party, nor therefore by extension, themselves and their own views.

    That was the same in the Ref, where the surveys showed that by attitude and beliefs, Scotland should have voted 60% YES but when it came right down to it, people were overtaken with the “we can’t do that”, or “that won’t be good for me”.

    Another angle of that, and to make it personal, is that for instance I like the idea of Common Weal, Radical Independence, a lot of what the SSP say. But it’s “not practical”, so I wouldn’t vote for it. It’s “ideals” versus “pragmatism” – or our version of what “pragmatic” means. The trick is to make the two the same thing.

  68. Croompenstein says:

    Same dates and sample size as the Wings poll. Rev Stu’s obviously got that nice Mr Murdoch to pay for his voting intention questions

    Eh! no way Roger, PC Murdoch is untouchable, straight as they come he wouldn’t pay for any polls just the polis 🙂

  69. Alex Clark says:

    Stu didn’t ask any voting intention questions.

  70. Ian Brotherhood says:

    Could someone please provide a potted summary of what this controversial tweet/comment is about? Haven’t been able to keep up, missed it…cheers.

  71. yesindyref2 says:

    OT
    A couple of annoying “discussions” with opposition posters in the Herald where two (or more) are quoting an £18 billion deficit as current, and deficit % as double the UK one – also as current.

    As always with opposition posters (I hesitate to use Unionist as I think that’s expired), there’s no detail, no references, no calculations to back it up – and no relevance. Just unfounded assertions that are difficult to contradict unless we know the basis for their fantasies.

    I think from the last exchange of postings they’re based on the White Paper – yes, that paper that has now no relevance to the current Scottish economy as Scotland voted NO. And also on some projection for 2016 for 3 years based on the current oil price of $50 as though that’s going to be the steady price of a volatile resource for the next 5 years.

    All I can suggest is to pin them down to quoting their source, and perhaps counter a future “black hole” based on $50 per barrel, with a potential surplus based on $130 per barrel as being just as likely and just as unlikely but in any case totally unpredictable.

    The knives are out for Devo-Max, and as always the opposition are cheating and deliberately misleading. It’s very tedious and time-wasting.

  72. Ian Brotherhood says:

    Okay Marcia, where is it? Come on…we know you’ve got it…

  73. Lenny Hartley says:

    Basically Scots gdp 99% of uk without oil and upto 120%. Of uk gdp with we dont need oil its a bonus and with indy we save billions pa with not paying for trident, london sewers hs2 overseas military basis and with no currency union save over 4 billion per year on debt interest payments

    I heard that the 18 billion figure is over 3 years
    But remember all brit figures include us paying for the brit things mentioned above which we will not be paying in an indy scotland

  74. Fireproofjim says:

    Yes, Marcia, you are keeping me oot ma bed.

  75. Croompenstein says:

    @Ian – Mad post on wings about hanging David Clegg, DR tipped off or read the post and then go in to cybernat overdrive and demand apology from FM… Question is was the wings post a false flag?

    https://archive.today/BboKW

  76. ronnie anderson says:

    @ Roger Mexico thanks for the Laugh, George Foulkes SNP down from 17 points to 10 in two weeks re Kezia n Jims works Oh lordy lord put the bottle doon yer brains mush.

  77. yesindyref2 says:

    Lenny
    One of them (two I think in fact) came up with this wheeze where the current deficit is supposed to be £12 bn, so add the £6 bilion that OBR came up with because of the low oil price and it’s £18 billion this year.

    Ummmmmmm. But it’s a problem. The figures are so ridiculous they’re actually not easy to contradict.

  78. Brian Doonthetoon says:

    Hi cynicalHighlander.

    Where are getting those figures from? As of a minute ago, there’s nothing new on the YouGov and Panelbase web sites.

  79. Brian Doonthetoon says:

    Possibly ‘Scot Goes Pop’?

    I usually go there for analysis, after the figure are published on the polling companies web sites.

    So, where does James Kelly get his info – before it’s on the web sites?

  80. Graham Purnell says:

    FYI – The only party that can advocate the death penalty is UKIP. It is a stipulation of EU member states that they do not have the death penalty. If you’re one of the hang ’em high brigade, vote UKIP. If you’re a compassionate and reasonable human being, don’t.

  81. ben madigan says:

    i thought Rev Stu’s poll was extremely helpful – it shows exactly what independistas are up against and which issues need to be emphasized

    Hopefully once the worst of the winter weather is over 1.5 million odd SNP and YES supporters will move into the election campaign mode.

    I am confident the SNP will have a landslide victory – as long as those supporters put the work in – as if for an Indy ref mark II campaign – no matter what swings there are in the polls between now and then

    They will need to be out distributing fliers and stickers,talking to family and friends, holding public meetings, pub and club evenings, door chappin’ , keeping a keen eye out on postal votes and getting voters out on the day and so on .

    You’ve all done it before – you can do it again, with even better results second time round!!

  82. Ian Brotherhood says:

    @Croompenstein –

    Cheers. I honestly didn’t know what it was about, and can’t believe they’ve made such a hoo-haa about it.

    ‘Je Suis Charlie’ my arse – WAPOFS.

  83. Dr Jim says:

    @r esqueirdo
    Sadly no..

  84. Marcia says:

    Out of my sick bed to see the SH front page – you can as well;

    https://twitter.com/newsundayherald/status/556565836451028992

  85. Marcia says:

    Panelbase poll leader net ratings:

    NicolaSturgeon: +10
    JimMurphyMP: -12
    David_Cameron: -42
    Ed_Miliband: -46

    very poor ratings for the millionaires.

  86. boris says:

    But Brown, assisted by his network of spies, the Civil Service and rumour mongers continued with his vindictive attacks on Alex Salmond and his government making life extremely difficult for the newly elected SNP government turning down meetings delaying and denying Scotland effective governance. But due to the dogged and unstinting efforts of Alex Salmond a way forward was finally agreed through the establishment of a new “Joint Ministerial Committee” comprising the leaders of devolved administrations and representatives of the Westminster government. Adding insult Brown insisted that the First minister of Wales should undertake responsibilty for agreeing the format and chairing the body at the first plenary session after which Jack Straw would take the chair at meetings. What a control freak. No Gordon Brown Alex Salmond meetings.

    more

    http://caltonjock.com/2015/01/18/sir-menzies-campbell-and-gordon-browns-secret-talks-on-pact-to-deny-snp-the-right-to-govern-scotland/

  87. Robert Peffers says:

    @Annette says: 17 January, 2015 at 9:04 pm:

    “Are you excluding them in the same way the MSM do?”

    Of course no one here is excluding the Greens. What was said is clear. By no stretch of imagination can the Greens yet be considered a main Westminster Party. By the same token neither can the LibDems nor even perhaps UKIP.

    It is doubtful if any of that trio of political parties could even form a government if all three agreed a coalition. Which ever party, or parties, at Westminster forms the next government it will most likely be either Labour or Tory in coalition with a minor party.

  88. yesindyref2 says:

    Croompenstein
    I vaguely remember the comment. To be honest it didn’t seem serious from memory, but it shows how the MSM is eager to pick up anything the evil cybernats are saying to use to discredit the lot of us.

    The MSM conveniently forgets similar “jokes” about Salmond, I found a few apparent death threats, and postings wishing he’d FOAD.

  89. Roger Mexico says:

    Brian Doonthetoon says:

    Where are getting those figures from? As of a minute ago, there’s nothing new on the YouGov and Panelbase web sites

    The figures came from Nick Sutton’s twitter feed as linked to in my post above, though presumably you can actually buy the paper and read it by now.

    Panelbase polls usually don’t appear till Monday morning though sometimes they may be sent out for analysis (so Curtice may be commenting on them tomorrow).

    YouGov don’t seem to be doing a regular Scottish poll, but could well be doing one for the Times or the Sun fairly soon – the last was over a month ago. Their regular GB one for the Sunday Times will appear on their website at 6am. There’s also a GB one for the Sun on Sunday, though we may not get the tables for that till Monday.

    There’s a Scottish poll due from Survation for the Record as well.

  90. HandandShrimp says:

    Guardian’s Opinium poll looks interesting suggesting that the SNP are up 1% to 5% (UK wide 2,000 poll sample). That would put the SNP on about 60% which seems a tad high. I haven’t seen the weightings but even allowing for sub sample and error it would suggest the SNP vote is robust.

  91. Mealer says:

    Norrie.

  92. Roger Mexico says:

    You have to be very careful with these samples though. The Opinium sample is only based on 161 Scotland responses, 59 of whom said SNP (after weighting 67 from 172), both of which are under 40%. The numbers are too small to mean much unless you see the same pattern repeated regularly as we have the chance to see with YouGov. It’s particularly risky with Opinium as they’re the only online pollster who don’t use any political weighting and it seems to make their polls more unstable than some.

  93. Barontorc says:

    Well digested Stu. If we look at the common aspirations of all ‘British’ people we see we are not far apart in principle, nor should we, or will we be and this is the ‘Achille’s heel’ of the divisives who are hell-bent on fomenting differences to eliminate our national individualities.

    Look at the airbrushing going on in the BBC to paint all things British at the expense of the Scots identity. We’re ‘North British’ geographically no doubt about that, but do you ever hear of ‘South British’?

    It’s becoming farcically juvenile and reeks of somewhat desperation and clinging-ness.

    It’s time for QE1 of Scots to put in her well paid for twopenceworth methinks.

  94. Roger Mexico says:

    Oops! Ignore the ‘under 40%’ bit as we don’t know how many Don’t Knows etc there are in that sample of 161. Which means that the effective sample is even smaller and less reliable.

    Opinium are the only pollster not to give a geographic breakdown in their tables, so we can’t tell anything much. The other pollster we currently have details of from the current batch is ComRes their Scottish figures are:

    Con 17%

    Lab 22%

    Lib Dem 3%

    SNP 47%

    UKIP 7%

    Green 4%

    but only based on a sample of 156. To see how unreliable these cross-breaks can be, in the same poll Plaid only show 2% in Wales (normally they’re 11-12% at least) with a sample based on 85.

  95. davidb says:

    O/T

    At a concert in Glasgow on Saturday only to discover MOT was recording it. In the interval they asked the audience to do some cheering and clapping to be edited in to the footage. I estimate around a quarter of those I could see declined to join in. That despite me making a point of looking later to see enthusiastic participation by many of those same folk later in the show.

    I may be biased but am inclined to think many of those attending were protesting in their own way.

    We could do with more organised protest. How much more edited would it have been to have a section shouting Hail Alba?

    Could anyone else attending tell me if they had many abstainers around them?

  96. Lenny Hartley says:

    Yesindyref2

    I was told by a mate that bbc radio scotland (i dont listen or watch any bbc propaganda) had a tory activist say on a phone in program that it was 18bn over 3 year, that would tie in with your 6bn a year figure.

    We have to get over to people that their is only a deficit due to us being in the union

  97. Neil says:

    This is my first post, to say how much I appreciate Rev Campbell’s journalism. This site ties me in with what is happening. The BBC is propaganda (I have no TV, radio permanently unplugged). The Guardian used to have good articles and even better comments, now a dreary mess of pro-Govt inanities. The Rev writes very nicely whereas eg I am struggling to read Iain Macwhirter’s Disunited Kingdom. The articles are often as fun as the comments. What has happened to people via politics is terrible, and this useful poll and its interpretation shows Rev at his best; leading, uniting, inspiring and informing us. So just thank you! (PS if Rev wants a rolling poll he could allow readers to tick comments we agree with).

  98. john king says:

    Croompenstien@ 5.55pm

    That Record article you archived for us thankyou
    I don’t like the response she got,

    “Aw, ok then you’re the boss x.”

    I smell shite!

  99. john king says:

    yesindyref2 @12.48am

    I saw the comment and I tend to scan the name if I read a contentious comment to see if its a stranger,
    but for the life of me I cant remember if it was,
    which suggests to me it was one of us,
    but by the same token I wasn’t exactly jumping up and down so it cant have been that bad,

    Its also worth remembering that the writer actually DOES have a point since one crime that would attract a death penalty (if we had one) would be treason which “THE VOW” arguably (in the context of a future yes win) WAS!

  100. john king says:

    William Joyce (lord haw haw) was hanged for treason.
    arguably Britain was at war, And its fair to say that Scotland is not, however we are facing the greatest change our country has EVER made (independence) and it could be said to prevent it by lying could be argued in the same context as a country at war since our very existence IS at stake!

  101. john king says:

    But death penalty notwithstanding I genuinely believe that Clegg should face a lengthy jail sentence post independence.

    ps it wasn’t me who wrote the original post.

  102. Ken500 says:

    The figures Scotland raises £53Billion in tax revenues (Scottish Gov Website) + tax Revenues going through eg London HQ’s for commercial activities in Scotland. The actual deficit is £2Billion whch coukd easily be covered by cutting Trident and a tax on ‘loss leading’ drink. A Scottish Defence force based in Scotland and admin based in Scotland would mean more economic advantage.

    The rest of the UK raises (£490 – £53Billion) = £437Billion (UK Gov website). The rest of the UK borrows and spends £100Billion more – the deficit. Then lumps a % (pro rata) on Scotland. £10Billion (which is never borrowed or spent in Scotland). That’s were the Scottish £53Billion + £10Billiin = £63Billion + £2Billion (deficit) = £65Billion figure comes from.

    The UK Gov divides the debt (even through it isn’t borrowed or spent in Scotland ie HS2, Tridal barrage London, Hickley power station) and lumps it on Scotland.

    Scotland should have a £220 Billion Oil Fund. The revenues were used on Trident/illegal wars, tax evasion, banking fraud (London), projects in London S/E. Tilbury Docks, Canary Wharf, motorways etc. Secretly. Westminster secrecy and lies covered by the Official Secrets Act.

    The Unionist Parties are funded by Banks/Hedge funds. The SNP are funded by it’s members.

  103. Ken500 says:

    HS2 (no business case – not enough passengers) Japan pop 100million – UK Pop 62Million.

    Cutting HS2 and Trident would cut the Defict. No £52Billion a year debt repayment. Staying out of the Middle East and stop interferring, leaving the people in peace would save £Billions. Cut the debt and stop migration in Europe.

  104. BJ says:

    O/T
    Very large pile of DR unsold in my Tesco at 8pm.. Usually just a few left at that time.

  105. CameronB Brodie says:

    Ken500
    I’m pretty sure its too late to stop the HS2 train, if you’ll pardon the pun. What I object to, is the line we are sold that HS2 will benefit the ‘country’, when all the scheme analysis from around the worl appear to indicate benefits are local. Not only this, but the upgrade of all supporting networks will modernise the regional economy, thereby improving its competitiveness for investment that Scots firms might be competing for.

    As you will see, Scotland might be connected by the end of the 21st century, after helping fund the upgrade of much of England’s infrastructure.

    HS2 chairman Sir David Higgins pledges to make savings

    http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-25724576

  106. caz-m says:

    Croompenstien

    You seem to be going a bit OTT with protecting the good name of the Daily Record. That paper, along with BBC Scotland done everything within it’s power to keep us attached to the UK. It lied to us.

    It deserves every bit of back luck that is going. If somebody said a wee sweary word against that rag then I couldn’t give a shit.

    With you highlighting that the Record has some enemies in Scotland, you are giving that piece of shit publicity.

    I hope that the only time the Record gets another mention on here is when it is being slaughtered for it’s blind support for Jim Murphy and Scottish Labour.

    Piece brother.

    And if you’re reading this Mr Clegg of the Record, Scottish Labour don’t seem to be doing as well as you would like. Time to get printing even BIGGER lies, what do you think?

  107. Tony Little says:

    OT

    I see that McKenna’s critique of the Labour Party in Scotland and the WM government over Oil pricing has no comments available. I wonder of this is the Grauniad’s usually tardy opening up of comments, or whether anyone will be able to. He is quite cl;ear that he disapproves of Labour’s posturing. He certainly had ‘seen the light’

  108. caz-m says:

    BJ 8.09am
    “Very large pile of DR unsold in my Tesco at 8pm.. Usually just a few left at that time.”

    At last BJ, a good news story about the Daily Record. Keep them coming.

  109. Crossfire might be worth listening too RScot as Izzy is on her own.

  110. caz-m says:

    You have to laugh at BBC Radio Scotland. They are going to discuss on their “Crossfire” programme, why the Labour Party voted along with the Tories for future austerity cuts, no matter who wins the GE.

    Why was Jackie Burd not telling everyone this on Reporting Scotland the day after they voted.

    Instead they sneak it into a Sunday morning radio show that will have very few listeners.

  111. Like Tony Little @ 8.50am, I noticed this morning’s Kevin McKenna column in the Observer doesn’t have a comments facility – strange.

    However, the headline is a bit stupid: something like -“How Westminster helped squander Scotland’s black gold”. I didn’t think they helped, or needed any help – Westminster managed to squander it all on their own.

    McKenna also fails to deal with this lie that an independent Scotland would have been up shit creek without a paddle when the oil price crashed.

    Given, had we won the Referendum, we would still be in negotiations, and at best, would not be free until 2016 – the current low price would not yet have been affecting Scotland.

    Similarly, had we already been independent, we would surely have had an oil fund in place to help even-out the volatility of oil prices.

  112. Lollysmum says:

    Just watched Pete Wishart’s speech about reform of the lords. He pulls no punches and shows why he’s the right man to have secured the debate. (SNP have no nominees in the lords).

    Labour have been promising to reform it for 100 yrs or more-still nothing. Is this perhaps their longest ever lie?

    http://bellacaledonia.org.uk/2015/01/17/a-gold-plated-red-upholstered-narnia/

  113. balgayboy says:

    Is the UK Green Party the 3rd largest by member subscription in the country according to Andrew Marr programme today? I thought it was the SNP

  114. Carol says:

    Just watched a bit of Andrew Marr and he introduced the Green Party as the third largest in the country by membership – can this be correct?

  115. matthew says:

    First time commenting here – just watching Andrew Marr on BBC – he said that the Green Party has just become the third largest party in the country. I’m a Green Party supporter, but this is ridiculous…

  116. Edward says:

    balgayboy & Carol

    Marr as usual happy to lie his head off, providing the comfort blanket to the London metropolitan/Islington luvvies that watch his tawdry crap

    The SNP is the Third largest, in terms of paid membership, in the UK, not the Greens

    You may have also noticed the dismissive comment about the SNP during the ‘newspaper’ review when the topic of the SNP might being involved if a hung parliament.

    Marr, being a labour luvvie simply doesn’t like the SNP

  117. caz-m says:

    Green Party membership in England and Wales has just passed the 43,000 mark.

    http://greenparty.org.uk/news/2015/01/15/combined-uk-green-parties’-membership-passes-ukips/

    Andrew Marr has a mental block when it comes to anything to do with Scotland.

  118. muttley79 says:

    The SNP have the third largest membership in the UK. Marr is talking garbage.

  119. HandandShrimp says:

    No doubt the BBC will pass off Marr’s comments as another honest mistake. Bollocks!. If their political correspondent doesn’t know that the SNP membership is near 100,000 then he shouldn’t be in the job.

    No doubt he will weasel it with “I meant UK wide because Scotland doesn’t count as part of the UK” or some such shite.

  120. Valerie says:

    Off topic, it is a pity that a minority of supporters do turn nasty on Twitter or FB, to the point NS steps in. Most Indy folk are clever and funny, and have no need to resort to hateful speech.

    The Huff post has picked up on the trending future Scotland Twitter thing, by SLab, and the responses, are funny, serious and pertinent, and from what I read, done in the right way, making the point, with great sarcasm, and nothing hateful.

  121. CameronB Brodie says:

    Prof. Tomaney’s report concluded that “it’s difficult to find robust evidence that HS2 will have a transformative impact on the economic geography of the UK.” Instead he advocated the development of better regional transport systems which he argued would provide a more tangible economic boost to the northern cities than the HS2 would. He went on to conclude that the probable net economic benefits of HS2, given his comparative studies, would most likely flow to London and the South.

    http://www.bartlett.ucl.ac.uk/planning/news/HS2ParliamentaryCommittee

  122. X_Sticks says:

    Can anyone get behind the paywall to the Sunday Times?

    Looks like an interesting story:

    “Beleaguered Blair quizzed over millions”

    “TONY BLAIR is to be challenged by parliament to come clean on his income and secretive financial empire amid claims he stands to earn millions of pounds advising the developers of a gas pipeline backed by the despotic regime of Azerbaijan.”

    http://www.thesundaytimes.co.uk/sto/news/Politics/article1508563.ece

    Sorry I haven’t archived this, but as it front of paywall the link is only so anyone who can get the story can find it.

  123. The Man in the Jar says:

    Regarding Marr and the rest of the Metrocentral cabal when they conflict the Green / SNP membership.

    Let them believe their own publicity, let them ignore us. Then sit back and laugh on the morning after the next GE.

  124. Grouse Beater says:

    The Greens in Edinburgh’s city council voted through the tram system, that’s the tram system that tore up the city’s Georgian streets while leaving all others pot-holed and rutted; the same one that added overhead cables to the landscape air-brushed off commercials we were given to win support for them, and charges half the price of a taxi to take you to the airport but twice the time to reach it.

    You can purchase superior, go anywhere, electric buses for less than one million pounds each that recharge from overhead pads in the transport depot.

    Now tell me the Greens are a radical, progressive party.

  125. Type of complaint:
    Television
    Choose channel:
    BBC One
    Programme title:
    The Andrew Marr Show
    Transmission date:
    18/01/2015
    Broadcast type:
    Live
    Incident time:
    09:00
    Complaint category:
    Factual error or inaccuracy
    Contacted us before:
    No
    Complaint title:
    Andrew Marr reported an inaccurate fact
    Complaint description:
    Andrew Marr twice stated that the Green Party was the third largest party with paid up members in the country. This was not true!! The SNP has over 94,000 members. The SNP’s membership is more than the memberships of the Green party and the UKIP party put together. I also would like you to make an AIR CORRECTION on next weeks programme. Mr Marr has demonstrated a bias against the SNP in the past, The BBC is also biased towards the SNP which we all know. But for this complaint I wish the the CORRECTION to be aired on the programme next week.

  126. Grouse Beater says:

    Regarding Marr and the rest of …

    Had a female broadcaster been struck down as Marr was she’d have been given a thank you card for her years of service to the BBC from her head of department and be dead-heading roses to keep her mind active.

  127. Famous15 says:

    Reading McWhirter’s comments in his analysis of the referendum and the Daily Record smearing all of the independence movement with what some crazed cybernats have written I return to the refrain I used for the last year; on the Internet people are anonymous! Who writes dire stuff may well be your opponent discrediting you.

    On a site such as this monitoring is at best reluctant as it allows many to explore diverse views. If a not so clever Unionist abuses these columns to build up a false expression then it is up to the rest of us to flame the intruder. How or what test to apply? I have no difficulty in deciding who is a Unionist plant; just ask yourself could the Record or Telegraph use the comments to beat us with.

    I now understand why the SNP is so disciplined and so ready to condemn all vile abusers on the Internet and it is because the Media take delight in damaging us.

    Scotland deserves a better Media but we have to chew with the dentures we have. LOL

  128. Nana Smith says:

    @X_Sticks

    Can’t help with the article but check out comment number 9 here…

    http://www.theweek.co.uk/daily-briefing/62141/ten-things-you-need-to-know-today-sunday-18-jan-2015

  129. Still here, still alive and kicking.

    Keep smilin’ everyone.

    Westminster, there’s a storm coming…

    Kindest regards,

    David Milligan

  130. Marcia says:

    Famous15

    It could that some of the so called nasty pro-SNP/Independent supporters are not supporters but agent provocateurs. If someone had the time and dug deeper then we should find out if these people were in fact genuine or not. Agent provocateurs have appeared from time to time since the 1930’s.

  131. Clootie says:

    If you live in a cummunity holding rigid values then those values will influence and bind those who seek to conform.

    You only find yourself free to think differently when you seek your own path.

    Scotland will be a fairer society but ONLY when we leave the destructive greed driven mindset of the union.

  132. X_Sticks says:

    Thanks Nana 😀
    It is an interesting article what a filthy, corrupt sleazebag Blair has turned into.

    I hope he gets nailed for his warcrimes and corruption.

  133. terry says:

    @lollysmum
    I watched it yesterdy – electric! Says it all, doesn’t it? I reckon if a lot of No voters got to see his speech they’d swing to Yes as it sums the establishment up. The more I watch these politicians the more I see that the quality of the SNP (and the Greens) dwarfs the whole lot of the unionist parties combined. Maybe that’s because they are genuine and act with passion and commitment.Very few of the others have core beliefs as they are only out for themselves. He he – it’s like an episode of Striclty when the judges slag off the ones who don’t dance from the core – they just go through the motions and it does not convince.

    After that sad day in September it’s speeches like this that bring a smile to my face and make me realise it’s not “if” but “when”.. I can’t wait for May 🙂

  134. Nana Smith says:

    @X_Sticks

    From everything I’ve read about Blair I would say he was always a sleaze who managed to smile enough for the camera to dupe the voters into thinking he was a genial sincere kinda chap.

    Sadly for us we weren’t told about his sleazy relationships and cover ups. Hopefully time will tell all but no doubt that will be when he’s dead and gone. Seems to be the way with politicians criminal activities.

  135. Bugger (the Panda) says:

    Carol et al

    Marr is right. The Green Party is the third biggest Party in the country. If by the country you mean his one, England.

    Also the Green Party is not one Party. There is a separate Scottish Green Party and possible a Welsh Green one too.

    So the Greens are not a UK Party and nor is Labour or the Conservatives as the are not represented in Northern Ireland.

  136. Hoss Mackintosh says:

    @James Caithness
    Well Done.

    Same Complaint submitted via phone 03700100222.

    Press 1 and 3 to skip though the options and get straight through to the NI capita call centre.

    Takes less time to call them but does cost the price of a local call.
    🙂

  137. Graeme says:

    Since the details of the poll have not been published yet, how can interested readers verify if ANY of these details you are drip-feeding are statistically significant?

    What are the margins of error on the numbers you are reporting?

  138. Lollysmum says:

    Nana
    Well done on finding that article about Blair. Who’d have thought it would be in Ghana Review & who would have looked for it there? Only you 🙂

  139. Nana Smith says:

    @Lollysmum

    Belated b’day wishes Lollysmum!

    I read everything even if it chokes me with rage as a lot of msm guff does. But my reason for doing so is pretty simple ‘Know thine enemy’

    Sometimes the stuff I do come across stops me from posting it so as not to depress other wingers.

  140. muttley79 says:

    Good lord, Jackie Baillie is as shameless as ever on Sunday Politics. Yet another appalling performance.

  141. crazycat says:

    @ Nana Smith

    I had the misfortune to encounter Tony Blair in 1995. A conversation I was having was interrupted so that he could speak to my companion, so I got the chance to observe him at very close quarters without actually making eye contact or exchanging pleasantries.

    My conclusion was that he oozed insincerity like no-one else who has ever crossed my path. I was astounded a couple of years later when I saw an interview with a group of women in Swindon, all Tories now planning to vote Labour; they all said it was TB’s sincerity which had changed their minds!

  142. Connor Mc ewen says:

    Sick of seeing[ Statesman !!!!!!?????] Cameron in the media toadying with Obama and avoiding debate about debate,and selling off NHS contracts to Senate members.Cameron is doing everything possible to avoid breaking the Union including further Nuclear Contracts with American Co.’s.English votes and all that.The debate has to be widened

  143. Nana Smith says:

    @crazycat

    you nailed it right there “oozed insincerity”

    There are quite a number in the commons right now who ooze creepiness & make my skin crawl.

  144. Patrick Roden says:

    As Tony Blair and New Labour were being voted in for the first time, I was aghast at the obvious dishonesty of the man and his party and thought I was the only one seeing this. (due mainly to our lying media telling everyone how loved ‘Honest Tony’ was)

    I was relieved to eventually discover that he was not popular in Scotland at all, as people saw through him, but why oh why then did so many people still vote for Him and Labour?

    I suppose this poll goes a long way to giving us the answer: people simply feel they have no real choice, but to vote for liars and thief’s, because they feel the liars and thief’s they will vote for, are less nasty liars and thief’s, than the other lot of liars and thief’s.

  145. Rev. Stuart Campbell says:

    “Since the details of the poll have not been published yet, how can interested readers verify if ANY of these details you are drip-feeding are statistically significant?

    What are the margins of error on the numbers you are reporting?”

    The margin of error is about 3%, same as with any 1000-sample poll. Full data tables will be available on the Panelbase site on Monday, as is normal practice.

  146. IAB says:

    From the Herald Scotland – maybe things are darker before the dawn

    The survey, conducted for think tank British Future, found that despite the No result of last September’s referendum, almost half (48%) of Scots believe independence will happen in 10 years. Another 18% believe it will occur within 50 years, while just 17% said they think it will never happen.

    Nearly half of English voters polled also believe Scotland will gain independence, with just 28% saying it will never happen.

    The report notes that the idea the referendum was a once-in-lifetime vote seems “rather less likely now, given the way in which the Scottish National Party have turned the disappointment of the referendum result into a nationalist surge”.

  147. KennyG says:

    In the case of an in/out EU referendum, all four home nations should have to vote, and agree separately, for it to happen. Not by way of a UK wide majority. For Scotland to be dragged out of the EU against its will would be an insult to democracy.

    Sadly, with Westminster in charge of things, I think we know what is likely to happen.

  148. Fred says:

    Matcia, hope you are on the mend dear.

  149. gus1940 says:

    I know that plenty of people accuse Gordon Brewer of being biased towards the Bad Guys but on today’s Sunday Politics he managed beautifully to get Gorgeous Pouting Jackie Baillie to comprehensively tie herslf in knots and make a complete idiot of herself (not for the first time).

  150. Lollysmum says:

    @ Matthew at 9.32am

    Welcome to the vile cybernats as the meedja would have you believe. We’re quite a nice crowd mostly 😉

  151. Lollysmum says:

    @ Neil at 5.30am (on a Sunday??????)

    Welcome to cybernat review Neil. Good to have you here 😉

    @ Nana Smith
    Thanks Nana. Stu did his best to spoil it but he upped his game with the last post of the day.

    @ Marcia – hope you’re feeling better!

  152. lumilumi says:

    Have been reading the poll results – thanks for the poll, interesting results, food for thought.

    Some of the results were kind of disappointing but not really all that surprising. I remember some “social barometer” poll in Finland a few months back and the results weren’t all that different (allowing for local circumstances).

    For instance, responses to immigration were similar (and Finland’s immigration figures stand at approximate 4%!) and in the past ten years or so there’s been a hardening of attitudes against “benefit scroungers” etc.

    There’s even been calls for the death penalty to be reintroduced. This in a country where the last peacetime execution took place in 1825! (Since then the death penalty was commuted to life imprisonment or transportation to Siberia.)

    During the Civil War in 1918 there were executions on both sides after “field courts”. The last wartime executions took place during the Continuation War (1941-1944), for desertion, espionage and/or treason. 3 Finns and 3 Soviets.

    Peacetime death penalty was formally abolished in 1949 and wartime not until 1972. In 1995 the Constitution was amended to expressly prohibit the death penalty and this was incorporated in the new Constitution of 2000. (Finland has had a written Constitution ever since independence.)

    Every time there’s been a particularly grisly, violent or multiple murder widely reported in the media, a small, baying mob call for the death penalty to be reintroduced, obviously ignorant of the fact that de facto there hasn’t been death penalty in Finland for nearly 200 years!

  153. Paula Rose says:

    lumilumi et autres – I did wonder if there would be a similar response for countries outwith the UK on questions that were not specific to these isles.

  154. Barontorc says:

    Still not a whisper from UK PLC about the Russian gas cut-off to Ukraine, which also just happens to be the main gas supply conduit to Europe.

    Wonder why?

  155. Ali says:

    Interesting poll and while I may be disappointed in some of the responses I feel that this information should focus the mind on the issues we need to target when we are out there doing our bit for the GE and beyond.

  156. James Dow A voice from the diaspora says:

    Dispirited? Are you kidding O’h what joy to be a Scot revelling in the diminished returns to the English treasury from Scotland’s natural assets. Looking forward to $30.00 a barrel. Roll out the barrel George,let’s have a barrel of fun etc. I am an agnostic but perhaps I may have to reconsider my beliefs,with this type of retribution being administered to my ancient and current foes there must be a God.

  157. Phil Robertson says:

    One of the problems with these polls is that the fail to ask the corollary – and how much extra would YOU be prepared to pay to achieve this? Many of the proposed measures have a direct or an indirect cost and if there is one thing almost all parties are scared of, it’s increases in widely-applying taxes. Just look at John Swinney’s contortions over tax on house sales.

  158. Grouse Beater says:

    Robertson:
    Many of the proposed measures have a direct or an indirect cost and if there is one thing almost all parties are scared of, it’s increases in widely-applying taxes

    It’s meme of neo-con doctrine that all taxes should be reduced. What the really mean is reduced for wealthy businessmen and companies.

    Following a fantasy tax system means ultimately somebody has to pay a greater and graeter share of tax in order to sustain systems and services.

    As corporations and companies reap the benefit of the corrupt lobby system income from taxes collapses.

    So, as example, we begin with VAT at 8%; politicians swear it will never go beyond 10% or be applied to essential items. Thatcher shoves it up, Labour follows suit, until today we are at 20%, with brazen politicians advocating 22%.

    Rich, it isn’t a problem.

    For the rest of us it’s another repressive esculator tax.

  159. Graeme says:

    @Rev. Stuart Campbell:

    The margin of error is about 3%, same as with any 1000-sample poll. Full data tables will be available on the Panelbase site on Monday, as is normal practice.

    That would be true for questions you ask of the whole 1000-sample. However:
    – The “agree” and “disagree” percentages would have roughly +-3% margin of error. In other posts, you take the difference of these to create a “net agreement” figure. This has a bigger margin of error; to a first approximation, double.
    – In one post you actually take a difference of net agreements – this has an even bigger margin of error.
    – Furthermore, if you analyse the answers from sub-samples, like men/women, Labour/SNP/LibDem/Tory-voters, the various demographics, then the margins of error may be significantly higher. I estimate the margin of error in some of the numbers you have been reporting from this poll to be well over 20%.

    Please be careful not to over-interpret the results.

  160. Chris says:

    If we don’t build more nuclear power stations we won’t come under the 2C warming ‘ceiling’. That’s just a fact.

    Unfortunately nuclear is very much a tribal issues. It has obvious links with the military and ‘mastery’ over nature, so is associated with the right wing of politics.

    Nuclear fission is just another natural process, no more or less magical than burning a match, the rest is just baggage.

    France has decarbonised is electricity grid, Germany is no where close despite spending billions and having the most expensive electricity anywhere.

  161. Grouse Beater says:

    Graeme:
    Furthermore, if you analyse the answers from sub-samples….zzzzz

    ….. you can dehumanise an interesting poll until it has lost all meaning and worth.

  162. Graeme says:

    @Grouse Beater
    zzzzz….you can dehumanise an interesting poll until it has lost all meaning and worth.

    I wasn’t deliberately trying to sound dry and technical, nor to be negative about the interesting results of the poll; only to point out that understanding the margin of error is critical for the poll’s interpretation.

    For example, I did a poll of 1 person on Princes Street this lunchtime: “Should Simon Cowell be executed?”. The answer was that the person agreed. I could infer from this that 100% of Scottish people are in favour. I hope you’d agree that my poll has little “meaning and worth” because that 100% figure has a massive margin of error.

    Similarly, the PanelBase poll of 1007 Scots had only 63 LibDem voters. Therefore, to give results only for them means that the margin of error in the “agree” or “disagree” figures is plus/minus 12%.



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