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Where there isn’t a will

Posted on November 25, 2022 by

Let’s get straight to the point: this is a straight-up categorical lie.

Since Wednesday’s events there’s been a lot of chatter and confusion on social media about whether the Scottish Government has the ability to trigger a snap Holyrood election and use it as a de facto plebiscite on independence.

The short answer, as we told you yesterday, is “officially no, in practice yes”. But that needs a bit of further explanation, so as usual let’s do the job of actual journalism that nobody else in Scotland can apparently be bothered to.

The Scotland Act says surprisingly little on the subject. The two sections we showed you in our previous piece are the only mentions in the whole document of the process of electing a First Minister, and they’re very low on detail.

For that you have to look in the Parliament’s standing orders, specifically Chapters 4 and 11. What actually happens is that candidates are proposed and seconded and there’s then a series of votes, eliminating the lowest-placed candidate each time, until one of them has a majority of the votes cast.

If there’s only one nomination, MSPs can vote directly against them as well as for them, and they need to get more votes in favour than against to win.

So if the Unionists put up a single candidate, the SNP and Greens vote them down, Section 3(1)(b) is triggered and there’s your election straight away.

If they put up more than one, the SNP and Greens vote to abstain instead until there’s only one left, and then vote against, with the same outcome. (The standing orders appear to treat abstentions as votes against for the purposes of the elimination process – they specifically call them votes to abstain” rather than just “abstentions”, so they’re still being counted as votes – so if you get 60 votes in favour and 68 abstentions, you don’t have a majority.)

If there’s any question mark over that, there’s also an alternative strategy, whereby the SNP/Greens put up a contender of their own, that contender wins immediately because the SNP and Greens command an absolute majority of the vote, then the new FM stands down immediately and the whole process begins again.

This could go on indefinitely, with the SNP and Greens voting for an endless string of one-day First Ministers, but of course the opposition would in reality have no option but to recognise the facts of the situation and go along with a two-thirds vote under Section 3(1)(a) to dissolve the Parliament and trigger a new election.

(Which of course the opposition should always want to do on principle anyway. Saying the government is awful but you want to force it to stay in office rather than try to take power yourself is a very terrible look indeed for a political leader. In any event there’s no cost to the Scottish Government in TRYING it. If it fails they stay in office.)

And that’s it. It’s a very straightforward but effective plan. Really the only thing the UK government could do to foil the move would be to step in and suspend Holyrood entirely, as they’ve done previously with the Northern Ireland administration at Stormont, but for very different reasons. Doing it with Holyrood to prevent a legitimately and properly triggered democratic election from taking place would be an extraordinary and extremely unpopular step – even most Unionists are strong defenders of the Scottish Parliament’s existence regardless of whether they like its current makeup.

And of course Nicola Sturgeon won’t do it. She’s pathologically and paralysingly afraid of any sort of conflict or political risk, as we saw in particular in 2017 but basically for the entire duration of her reign. It suits her much better to stall and delay for another two years, and then use an unofficial plebiscite to secure five more years in power.

But to claim that she CAN’T do it is a barefaced untruth. In every practical sense it’s within the Scottish Government’s power to have a Holyrood election early next year and fight it as a de facto referendum. There are at least two ways under the rules to do it. The only thing lacking is the Scottish Government’s will.

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    132 to “Where there isn’t a will”

    1. BorderScarifier says:

      “This could go on indefinitely, with the SNP and Greens voting for an endless string of one-day First Ministers, but of course the opposition would in reality have no option but to recognise the facts of the situation and go along with a two-thirds vote under Section 3(1)(a) to dissolve the Parliament and trigger a new election.“

      Why would the opposition have to recognise that specific situation. They would benefit from the complete confusion and await a general election? The nuSnp would look like tumshies. I’d be inclined to let them continue to look stupid.

      What am I missing? Why do the yoon parties have to accept the tactic and play along?

    2. jockmcx says:

      Welcome back stu!

    3. Colin the Keelie says:

      Well explained Stu. It’s just further kicking the can down the road.

      The general election de facto referendum is also a con.

      The UK state (England) has has made it clear (from their standpoint) they will not approve their golden goose region of Scotland seceding from their UK empire. The SNP have not said they would declare independence following an election win. Instead they talk about negotiating.

      So, it would be back to where we are now: the SNP going through the charade of asking permission for independence, the Imperial Masters saying no, and the Vichy SNP happily continuing as England’s colonial administrators for Scotland.

    4. I Wright says:

      ‘The only thing lacking is the Scottish Government’s will.’

      That single sentence sums up the last 8 years.

    5. David Beveridge says:

      “Nicola’s played a blinder” is the best one I’ve seen so far. When you’re confronted with Scientology levels of delusion, just how do you get through to these folk that The Empress is running around stark naked?

    6. Robert Hughes says:

      YO ! Journalism .

      This is where you excel Mr C . That the object/s of your incisive eye has ( rightly ) become the Party we once held to be the vehicle to take us to Independence is 100% down to * them * .

      More pish from another rainbow-bedecked intellect-free member of the inner circle of self-reinforcing political vacuity above . Is Hunter’s job title Head of Stupid People by any chance ?

      Great to have you back kickin’ fat , lazy arse , Stu

    7. Viscount Ennui says:

      I think that the main argument that would be put forward by the opposition in such a scenario is that politiking of this nature would seriously undermine the functions of government at a time when the country needs to be governed. OK, we have a very poor administration at the moment but even this is better than nothing.
      It would also diminish NS’s stature on the world stage (even if she were not directly involved) and as we know, it is her vanity that has driven much of what has taken place over the last 8 years.
      I suspect also that there is something in various codes of conduct about ministers and MSPs acting in ‘good faith’ and that any attempt to undermine the functions of Holyrood could result in disciplinary action.
      Scotland needs rid of NS, Swinney, and that squalid tribe of political pygmies but I am not convinced that in contriving a stalemate it would do us any good.

    8. stuart mctavish says:

      There is undoubtedly a will, that’ll be why the tranny bollocks was concocted.

      The real question is whether administrative Scotland is ready or not and, unfortunately, Alba’s failure to embrace Sarah Salyers efforts fully (I’ve no real understanding of the dispute only the body language), together with the new suggestion to turn the plebiscite to excite into a plebiscite to negotiate suggests that it is not. ie the politicians want more time at Westminster to smooth the transition

      This is probably no big deal in itself since, to paraphrase, a shit ton of suspected unknowns and unknown unknowns have been exposed since 2014, but it would obviously be easier to protect unity, and invite sufficient trust, in order to allay irrational fears for the future if a coherent plan can be articulated from the get go.

    9. Republicofscotland says:

      I’m hoping the key to this lock is the SNP MSPs, and that they will after a short period of reflection realise what a monumentous decision was taken by the UKSC the other day, and its negative affect on Scots.

      That they will band together and compel our FM to go down this road for the good of the people and the country, the key to Scotland having a chance to decide to leave this onesided union now lies in their hands.

      So, get E-mailing them right now, enter your postcode to find out if you have a SNP/Green MSP.

      Do it now.

      https://www.parliament.scot/msps/current-and-previous-msps

    10. Hatuey says:

      Can people tweet the hell out of this… let them know they’re rumbled.

      Awesome stuff.

    11. Viscount Ennui says:

      Pragmatically, what would best suit our purposes intially is for a whistle-blower to emerge and reveal NS’s role in the whole Salmond affair.
      Get rid of her and install Joanna Cherry and then purge ScotGov of the dross that has accumulated.
      Reform the SNP, forge an alliance with ALBA, and put the Greens in the recycling bin.
      Then let battle commence.
      This phoney war has become very draining.

    12. ross says:

      Yip -it’s debatable whether it’s the correct strategy but it’s inaccurate to say it’s not possible to force an election.

      I (highly) doubt Mhairi doesn’t know the possibilities.

    13. stuart mctavish says:

      NB replace protect with project

    14. Socrates MacSporran says:

      Sorry, but, I think all these calls for action at Holyrood are a waste of time, and attacking the wrong target.

      As Enoch Powell said all these years ago: “Power devolved is power retained. The place to attack is the place where the power lies – Westminster.

      If the SNP had a collective pair of balls, and sensible, competent leadership: they would be either:

      1. Resign all the Westminster seats they hold to force by-elections, in which they stand candidates on the single premis: “A vote for the SNP is a vote for Scotland to dissolve the Union and negotiate the terms of that dissolution.”

      Or – 2. Fight the next UK General Election on those same terms.

      I could not help but notice, at the Privy Council meeting at which his succession to the Monarchy was announced, King Charles III reitterated his support of Scotland’s Claim of Right. That’s another point of attack which we should be using.

      However, given the troughers and time-servers at the top of the SNP, this isn’t going to happen any time soon.

    15. Politically Homeless says:

      Unpopular opinion: it’s a bloody awful idea to put independence back to the public while Sturgeon is still on the throne. 6 years of the worst crises in the British state in living memory, PMs coming and going on a merry go round, inflation, Brexit, the whole enchilada, and we have not “Yes” above a majority above the margin of error. You can certainly argue that we would achieve a boost during the campaign ala 2014, but that’s forgetting that then the SNP leadership actually wanted independence. It no longer does, and that would be a huge obstacle in the campaign.

    16. ross says:

      Socrates, I agree. Action point 2 was put on the table by Sturgeon on Wednesday.

      I think it’s time to get behind it as imperfect as it is.

    17. Mairi says:

      Thanks for presenting the fact that it is party before country.

      The top brass will continue to obfuscate & the blind will continue to support them.

      We need an exposé of the Salmond case, from someone outwith the UK, to bring down these charlatans.

    18. Dave Munro says:

      I might have missed something but doesn’t point 7 means if there are only 2 Unionist candidates you can’t afford to abstain as they only need a plurality of the vote to win??

    19. Merganser says:

      David Beveridge @ 9.16 ‘Nicola’s playing a blinder’.

      That’s exactly what she is doing. But she’s doing it for herself and her mates, and it’s all at the expense of Scotland.

      She has managed to blind people to what she has done and what she is doing. It’s like a magic spell has fallen over the sensible people of Scotland.

      When will they wake up?

    20. Breeks says:

      I care nothing about what the Colonial Supreme Court said…

      A far bigger threat to Scotland’s welfare comes from this legion of ignorant SNP troughers; charlatans and frauds who’d need a three stage ladder just to reach mediocrity.

      The crop is a right off, a failure, the field is spoiled, and we shouldn’t use this method of propagation again. Scotland’s Holyrood “Parliament” is a greenhouse for obsequious ineptitude styled to suit Westminster’s interests, not Scotland’s. The same criticisms could be levied at a UK “supreme court “. Their purpose and intent is subjugation of Scotland, but understand the witterings of BOTH colonial institutions are trumped by the Constitutional Sovereignty of Scotland’s Community of the Realm.

      The Claim of Right is synonymous with the sovereign ascendancy of Scotland’s people, who are under attack by insurrectionists who “say” they respect the Claim of Right, but then ignore it. These are charlatans who confess their guilt before committing the crime regardless. Scotland’s Sovereignty is sound in legal principle.

      What fails is only the implementation of it, which is why Westminster rewards Scottish toadies. Westminster’s colonial encroachments have no legitimacy, but establish themselves with validation from obsequious Scottish arse kissers and obedient Gauleiters who undermine the truth about sovereignty.

      You want evidence about the truth about Scotland’s sovereignty? Go and watch the new King of England, King Charles III, with all his wealth, station, and privilege, as he swears fealty to Scotland’s Claim of Right.

      Our inaction, the supine acquiescence of the cowards we have in both our Parliaments is responsible for the increasingly roguish endeavours of Westminster colonialism. With a few notable exceptions, the defenders of Scotland are lying down on the job, and the encroachment is allowed to take root.

      It thoroughly deserves to be impeached, but impeached or simply bypassed, Sturgeon’s coterie of loonies cannot be left in charge of anything important. They are all abject failures.

    21. Brian Doonthetoon says:

      I posted this on the previous page a wee while ago but it rather fits in here and shows that Hunter has form for ignorant statements.
      ———————————————–
      Brian Doonthetoon says:
      25 November, 2022 at 8:55 am

      ” A NICOLA Sturgeon ally has said a de-facto referendum would be “more likely” to lead to a plebiscite rather than triggering talks to end the Union.

      Mhairi Hunter, who is the organiser for the First Minister’s SNP branch in Glasgow, said a victory for pro-Yes parties in the next General Election would not necessarily begin separation negotiations – but could be the basis for a referendum.”

      And further up the side street we are taken…

      https://12ft.io/proxy?q=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.thenational.scot%2Fnews%2F23148508.nicola-sturgeon-ally-win-de-facto-vote-likely-lead-indyref%2F
      —————————————-

      Rev Stu is correct. The above shows that the SNP has no will to go for independence. They appear to be scared of the prospect.

    22. Viscount Ennui says:

      Mairi says: 25 November, 2022 at 10:20 am

      We need an exposé of the Salmond case, from someone outwith the UK, to bring down these charlatans.

      100% agree. But the risk is that this will damage the indy movement as a whole, rather than just the SNP.
      What is actually required is an internal coup and this appears to be brewing in WM.
      The indy movement probably needs the apparatus of the existing SNP but without the tractors who occupy key posts.
      It is time for the Murrells to take their cash and go.

    23. stuart mctavish says:

      @Ross & Socrates

      I agree, action point 1 is also available to Kenny MacAskill, Margaret Ferrier and Patrick Grady with the added advantage of

      (a) providing a foretaste of public enthusiasm for such a plan
      (b) frontrunning SNP on issue lest it hoped to win back their seats..

    24. solarflare says:

      The SNP and Greens could just resolve to dissolve Parliament and hold an extraordinary general election anyway.

      Forcing all the Unionist parties to say “you lot carry on in government, we don’t want an election and you can’t hold one without two-thirds of the vote” would at least be funny if nothing else.

      As a modus operandi it would actually suit the SNP – “look we wanted to do something but the big bad Tories and Labour stopped us!”

    25. PhilM says:

      @David Beveridge
      If I were a Scientologist, even a defector from it, I would take great exception being compared to a member of the Church of Sturgeontology.
      Women Hold Up Half The Sky (available on Amazon for £1.36) might not be exactly comparable to Dianetics (mind you who would know?) but it is the Sturgeontologists who have allowed a cult to develop and it has led directly to the heaving cleft in the independence movement. A lot of time-served SNP people who should have known better have enabled this cult and we are now stuck with a crypto-messiah who would rather stick with the carpentry. And read lots of books apparently…

    26. Shug says:

      Any talk of using the Westminster plebisitary election to get a coalition with labour to get permission is a joke but it seems to be Nicola’s plan.

      It is a plan to fail

      I am now convinced she has been ‘got at’ and is working the delays in return for protection.

      The delaying and failures will continue until the movement collapses.

      Unless the MPs and msps move against her it is over

    27. Smitty says:

      I am at the point where I want SNP to lose the next Holyrood election so they can have a purge of the fucking idiots such as Enema Roddick, Karen Adams Family and ‘bedwetter’ Ben Macpherson. At least half can lose their seats then be won back once there is sensible leadership, the Blue Haired Gang all fuck of to the Greens or Hell (not sure which is worse!) and the NEC is rid of all these woke, paedo fucks who think women with cocks accessing toilets is a bigger priority than Indy. Oh yes, and Airmiles Angus can fuck off too.

    28. Allison Graham says:

      Welcome back Stu ? glad to see you’ve demonstrated good ROI already and hopefully that catches on with other crowdfunder’s tangible outputs.

      Didn’t/doesn’t Ms Hunter work for the FM?
      Dearie me showing lack of knowledge of rules of the game you are playing really is not a good look.

      Maybe if they any folk left who played political chess ? instead of just ones who’s talent begins & ends at gnawing the pawns we’d be getting somewhere by now.

      Is Scotland finally had our collective fill of politico spin? Can we now get back on track with an actual strategy to complete the democratic road to a better Scotland?

    29. Another Girl, Another Planet says:

      I think Mhairi Hunter is too stupid to know if she’s lying or not. She knows nothing about politics whatsoever, except how to lick the FM’s bahookie, and should bugger off back to the market stall she came from.

      So I am curious: did that tacit mention of an iron yesterday, and apologising for mentioning it, mean that this site believes the hush-hush Sapphic hissy-fit story in question?

    30. Alex says:

      And in a massive shock to no one the SNP, and Saint Nicola will do utterly nothing. Bluster and bullshit.
      Kick the can down the road. Continue to be a piss poor administration who can’t make our lives better with their existing powers. The SNP will not go against her or her husband. So they will continue reaping the rewards and doing nothing.

      What is the latest with the Indy money that the polis were investigating?

      Something has to bring them down and if Ferries, school exams, underfunded councils, drug deaths, hospital build issues, trams to name just a few don’t do then something else is needed.

    31. Luigi says:

      If the FM has “been got at”, as some suspect, there will definitely be a carrot and stick involved. I wonder what they are.

    32. Luigi says:

      If the FM has “been got at”, as some suspect, there will definitely be a carrot and stick involved. I wonder what they are.

    33. Frankie Mary says:

      This is a superb lesson in strategy. If only the strategically challenged in charge of the SNP would learn from it.

    34. Peter A Bell says:

      The main problem I see with what I suppose we must call ‘Plan C’ ? aside from the lack of political will ? would be if the ensuing plebiscite election was not on the basis of a genuine #ManifestoForIndependence. By which I mean a referendum which absolutely binds the elected government to a process (course of actions) which leads to the restoration of Scotland’s independence. We then campaign for a ‘supermandate’ ? a safe working majority and >50% on both ballots.

      Of course, it’s inevitable that the British government will continue to put up resistance. That resistance will only break when they are totally convinced that independence is being restored regardless. The Scottish Government must be resolute beyond measure in its determination not to be lured or forced from the path it has embarked upon. Seeing this, the British will regard their interests as being best served by seeking the best ‘divorce’ settlement they can get.

      Which is the point at which the Scottish Government must resort to extreme caution. The British are never more perfidious than when they are offering talks ? which they naturally assume they will dominate.

      The course of action I have in mind is #ScottishUDI. This may be summarised as follows.

      1. Assert the competence of the Scottish Parliament in all matters relating to the constitution on the basis of the Parliament’s democratic legitimacy and the sovereignty of Scotland’s people.

      2. Recall Scotland’s Members of Parliament from Westminster to sit on a National Convention with Members of the Scottish Parliament and such representatives of civic society as are deemed appropriate by the Scottish Parliament for the purpose of overseeing a formal constitutional referendum and the drafting of a Provisional Constitution for Scotland.

      3. Propose dissolution of the Union with England subject to approval by the Scottish Parliament and ratification by the people of Scotland in a referendum which satisfies all criteria to be regarded as a formal exercise by the people of Scotland of our inalienable right of self-determination.

      4. Hold a formal constitutional referendum on a proposal to dissolve the Union. This referendum to be held solely under the auspices of the Scottish Parliament and subject to oversight and management by the National Convention and such bodies as may be appointed by the Scottish Parliament.

      Let’s have none of that “consultative and non-self-executing” shite!

    35. Vivian O’Blivion says:

      This has all the hallmarks of a rearguard action.
      First they say there’s no alternative to a S30, “gold standard” referendum, now they say only Westminster will suffice as a theatre for a Plebiscite.
      Mhairi rails against the rising tide of opposition to the cult leader.
      A modern day Queen Cnut (is this correct?).

    36. Merganser says:

      Does Scotland deserve better?

      An Irish cousin has written to me (yes, paper and pen) and states the following:

      ‘ I often read two expressions about Scottish independence:

      Scotland deserves better; the Scottish people are sovereign.

      How can these both be right?

      If the sovereign Scots vote for the shit of the SNP, they deserve the shit of the SNP, it is their sovereign right to have the shit they have voted for, not something better’.

      I’m struggling with a reply.

    37. Dave Munro says:

      Peter says “The course of action I have in mind is #ScottishUDI. This may be summarised as follows.”

      You miss the difficult steps! Why would the UK negotiate with the Scottish Govt in these circumstances?? What’s your plan for getting international recognition given the UK veto at the UN??

    38. Big Del says:

      And Bang he’s back…..

      The Nicla clan won’t hear it tho. The great leader can do no wrong.

    39. Stoker says:

      Just catching up and listened to Alex Salmond’s interview with Bernard Ponsonby on STV.

      The difference between Salmond and Sturgeon is chalk and cheese, night and day. He demonstrates strongly just how much of a grasp he has on politics where Sturgeon doesn’t because she hasn’t. And that’s including surrounding herself with an army of very questionable “advisors”.

      He confidently accuses the unelected “Lord Reed” of overreaching his authority on questioning Scotland’s right to seek self-determination. Sturgeon, on the other hand, welcomes the Supreme Courts findings (no surprise there then) by stating she “respects the decision” etc.

      Salmond mentions 2 very capable Advocates in Joanna Cherry & Aidan O’Neill. Well, there’s our legal team right there, a legal team lead by those two. O’Neill has loads of experience with the Supreme Court, the Court of Justice of the European Union and the European Court of Human Rights.

      Sturgeon will not support the idea because she doesn’t want upstaged again by the very successful Joanna Cherry. But f@ck Sturgeon, she’s not the indy movement, she’s the fly in the ointment.

      And like others, i fear we will get nowhere until that seasoned failure is removed. To demonstrate no urgency after that “ruling” by saying we (SNP) shall have a chat about it in the Spring of 2023 clearly demonstrates her utter incompetence.

      We now need to be looking at ways to legally pursue this as a united non-party ‘Yes’ movement because Sturgeon has demonstrated over a period of 8+ years that she’s either clueless and/or let’s just be polite and say, her heart isn’t in the indy fight. Because we know indy certainly isn’t her priority.

      And at the same time as we’re legally challenging the Supreme Court’s decision, we could be all working on Salmond’s single-ticket suggestion at the same time. A 2-pronged attack. Sturgeon will do all that she can to oppose both those ideas, but you can’t blame me for trying to grasp a branch of hope and positivity.

      Where there’s a will there’s a way but we need those in-the-know to step up to the plate and lead us, give us direction. The support is there, it just needs the right folk to galvanise it and set the wheels in motion.

    40. Gregory Beekman says:

      The real question is:


      Why is there no mechanism for calling a snap Holyrood election?

      Another example of The Lesser Democracy of Scotland, now being spotted in more places than ever before…

    41. Breeks says:

      Another Girl, Another Planet says:
      25 November, 2022 at 11:26 am

      I think Mhairi Hunter is too stupid to know if she’s lying or not…

      Without making personal reference to Hunter, I think a lot of people of limited ability seek out mainstream positions for the security it promises. That’s why so many of these undertalented / sycophant types find their niche as Local Authority jobsworths. They feel safe from having their inadequacies ever being exposed, and they are bestowed with power and salary which instantly goes to their heads.

      Even if it’s just the power to put your call through or cut you off and frustrate you, it’s power they absolutely adore. Take that mentality out the Local Authority jobsworth, and put it in to the SNP’s NEC or candidacy vetting, and you have an NEC which revels in clipping the wings of the very people whom we need to take us forward, and promoting their “chums” and Trans bullshitters instead.

      Grima Wormtongue is a somewhat unflattering stereotype, (I mean “Wormtongue”?) but its telling which parts of a sycophant are caricatured…

      The problem is, the Scottish Independence Movement is essentially an anti-establishment initiative. It’s meant to be radical. We want the incumbent regime taken down and replaced with a true Scottish Government.

      I think some are confused. We want to do extremely radical things but in a peaceful and inclusive way, and there’s a bit of a paradox there. Like Alex Salmond says, Independence without as much as a nosebleed. But the radicalism is still an essential component of a velvet revolution.

      We need an essential spirit of rebellion in our footsoldiers, at least a little bit of a defiant “fuck you!” mentality, which traditionally has never been a problem in Scotland, (as the UK Supreme Court might be about to discover).

      But sadly, under Sturgeon, our “radical movement SNP” became a bloated haven for passengers, freeloaders, carpetbaggers, lobbyists, and infiltrators who didn’t give a shit about Scotland. Mhairi Hunter is just one of them. Kirsty Blackman is another; dumb enough to confess she’s ambivalent about Independence. So how the fk did she rise to Deputy Leadership of the Independence Party in Westminster???

      Because she feels inferior to clever people who’ll show her up, Sturgeon’s pool of talent is restricted to her “pals” and this swamp of sub-mediocrity. The “talent” with the driving ambition has pretty much all gone over to ALBA, which kinda leaves the SNP starved of talent, (Independence Papers anybody???) and staring into the abyss; in power (for now) but utterly clueless what to do with it.

    42. Stoker says:

      Forgot to add the link to Salmond’s interview for those who haven’t seen it yet. Watch this then sign up to the Alba Party: https://news.stv.tv/politics/alex-salmond-calls-for-snp-greens-and-alba-to-unite-for-independence-at-next-general-election

    43. fran says:

      Thanks for this explanation, I was getting confused with all the talk of needing 2/3 of parliament to vote for it.

    44. Andy Ellis says:

      The issue with moving to UDI or some other cunning plan asserting the primacy of the sovereign Scottish people and withdrawing to Holyrood etc. is that it won’t be seen as credible or legitimate unless:

      1) we are seen to have followed a process which demonstrates that we have exhausted the other available alternatives and can show we have been denied/frustrated by the bad faith position of Westminster; and

      2) we can demonstrate a clear majority in favour of independence in response to a clearly framed question or platform.

      Following the SC’s decision on Wednesday, we can now make a case that the referendum route is being unreasonably frustrated, but there is still a feasible route using plebiscitary elections. The international community, Westminster and Scottish unionists won’t accept a result which doesn’t clearly satisfy these basic criteria.

      The answer to Wednesday’s decision is not legal, it’s political.

      Only winning plebiscitary elections gives any hope of achieving independence in the short to medium term. Winning 50% +1 is all that’s required: no confirmatory referendum, or Convention or Assembly or withdrawing from Westminster.

      The pitch is simple: all the pro-indy parties on behalf of the movement as a whole declare before each election that a vote for them is specifically a vote for immediate de-facto independence in the event that the combined pro-indy vote is 50% +1.

    45. Breeks says:

      Dave Munro says:
      25 November, 2022 at 12:18 pm

      What’s your plan for getting international recognition given the UK veto at the UN??

      If Scotland ends the Union, there is no “UK” to veto anything, because England would not be a Continuer UK State.

      It’s essentially the same argument the Unionists used against Scotland over Europe, Scottish Independence meant having to leave Europe. Constitutional consistency would have seen England out of the EU too on the same grounds.

      Furthermore, International Recognition is the prerogative of the Nation State giving it, not the UN.

    46. Breeks says:

      Stoker says:
      25 November, 2022 at 12:39 pm

      Forgot to add the link to Salmond’s interview for those who haven’t seen it yet. Watch this then sign up to the Alba Party…

      An while signing up to that, get you, your friends and family, all signed up to the Edinburgh Proclamation and Liberation.Scot…

      https://liberation.scot/

      NO SPACES IN USERNAMES, but this “petition” really matters. It’s not going to make a wee protest and sit in a drawer forevermore, it is creating a platform for Scotland to have a voice that will be listened to. The sovereign people of Scotland will have a voice to speak.

      If you voted YES, get your name on the list. If you voted NO, if you were undecided, get your name on the list. Get your name on the list.

    47. John Main says:

      @Peter A Bell says:25 November, 2022 at 11:55 am

      First-class post.

      Clear plan of action for a fair, democratic referendum on Indy.

      I particularly like step 2:

      the drafting of a Provisional Constitution for Scotland

      Make it crystal clear what people will be voting for on the day. No “have faith”, or “we will sort it out later”.

      How long should this take? Well, as it’s the (re-) birth of a nation, allow 9 months, start to finish.

    48. Dave Munro says:

      “If Scotland ends the Union, there is no “UK” to veto anything, because England would not be a Continuer UK State.”

      Good luck with that …..

    49. Stoker says:

      Politically Homeless says on 25 November 2022 at 10:16 am:
      “…it’s a bloody awful idea to put independence back to the public while Sturgeon is still on the throne. 6 years of the worst crises in the British state in living memory, PMs coming and going on a merry go round, inflation, Brexit, the whole enchilada, and we have not “Yes” above a majority above the margin of error.”

      I was thinking about all this just this morning and feeling very depressed. But i then started thinking about Alex Salmond and how he must feel on wakening to this every morning.

      Add to that him handing the reigns over to someone he regarded as a close family friend and colleague, someone he mentored throughout most of her political career, only to see her readily turn against him to side with her BritNat handlers in one of the biggest ever abuses of the Scottish justice system.

      Alex must be kicking himself every day at giving up the reigns so soon after that ‘No’ vote. I’m as convinced as i’ll ever be that had Alex stayed on to make sure all that was promised was delivered, we would be independent by now. Or at the very least we would be in the final stages of its completion.

      I think to myself, if Alex can get out of bed every morning, starting from rock-bottom again, after all those years of building ‘Yes’ support to the point he achieved, then i too can get on with it. I feel for Alex, but we’re all in this together. We just need good confident leadership that knows what it’s doing, and Sturgeon isn’t it.

      I once stated i’d take a bullet for Sturgeon. So very glad i was never given the opportunity to prove it. Oh how wrong i was about that skank.

    50. Peter A Bell says:

      Dave Munro says:
      25 November, 2022 at 12:18 pm
      Peter says “The course of action I have in mind is #ScottishUDI. This may be summarised as follows.”

      You miss the difficult steps! Why would the UK negotiate with the Scottish Govt in these circumstances?? What’s your plan for getting international recognition given the UK veto at the UN??

      If you are thinking in terms of negotiating independence with the British government then you have failed to grasp the concept of popular sovereignty. When the people say the Union is to be dissolved then that is what will happen. It will be up to the British state to try and salvage as much as it can from the ‘divorce’.

      Why are you concerned about international recognition? Do you seriously imagine all the nations of the world are poised to refuse recognition for the flimsiest of reasons? Do you imagine the international community has more regard for local law than international law? Do you suppose other nations will be unable to understand that #ScottishUDI is the only way we can exercise our inalienable right of self-determination?

      Will there be challenges? Of course there bloody will! But if we are not prepared to face those challenges can we really claim to be fit to be an independent nation? After all, every normal nation has to deal with similarly difficult challenges every day. Are we less capable than even the least capable of them?

      If you genuinely want Scotland’s independence restored then first adopt the mindset of a sovereign citizen of an independent nation. Decolonise your mind!

      NOTE: I find this comment facility totally unsuitable for any kind of exchange so will not be responding further.

    51. john walsh says:

      “officially no, in practice yes”.

      I think you are going to have to do the theory in big crayons for our generaly thick parlimentairians.
      So they dont screw it up.
      I like the idea of First Minister for a day. (ex Ross Greer)
      the colonialist media would go into meltdown.
      If the resegnation of FM has to go to Charles! Then he would be kept so busy for a month and might just grant Scotland a free state act because he couldnt be arsed.
      Some Labour types may be mended to cross the floor to try and scupper that elaborate plan.
      But we know Nicola wont do anything that would endanger her grip on power.
      Tick Tock Nicola

    52. Hatuey says:

      Dave Munro, when I click your avatar it says Dan Munro.

      Anyway, the veto is in the UN Security Council, not the whole UN.

    53. Stoker says:

      Sturgeon said: “Regardless of attempts by Westminster to block democracy, I will always work to ensure that Scotland’s voice is heard, and that the future of Scotland is always in Scotland’s hands.”

      Putting it in the hands of England’s Supreme Court can hardly be classed as putting Scotland’s future in Scotland’s hands.

      That crap might be good enough for lying clueless morons such as Mhairi Hunter, but stop treating the bulk of the ‘Yes’ movement with this disrespectful school-level grandstanding diatribe.

    54. Rab Davis says:

      So in this “Union of Equals”, it is now crystal clear that the only one with any power is England.

      Because, as far as I can make out, if England decided tomorrow to have a referendum on English Independence, then all they would have to do would be to call a meeting at Westminster, give themselves a Section 30 Order, and Bob’s your uncle.

      They have their referendum, the Yes side win, and all other Westminster hurdles are easy overcome.

      Even if Scotland tried to drag them through the Supreme Court, it would be weighted on the side of the English.

      So summing up,,,, England are the only nation who could successfully leave the UK without the worries of being blocked by any of the other three nations.

    55. Shug says:

      Peter bell

      Agree just swap 1 and 2 around

      Can it be done with Nicola in charge. I doubt it she has to be outed

    56. A. Bruce says:

      Vivian; Queen Cnut sounds good to me.

    57. Karl says:

      Does anyone know if there has been much reaction from NI or Wales as they must now realise their position within the UK has also been confirmed? There is really not much point to Westminster now.

    58. Ottomanboi says:

      It never was a «Union of equals», not from the very start when James VI couldn’t wait to rush off to London to claim his new kingdom.
      Only a romantic and very delusional, lobotomised Brit unionist could believe that…..before breakfast.
      England indulges no one, excepting its fellow neo imperialist, the USA

    59. James Che says:

      Ottomanboi.

      Re union of equals,

      Read my posts under “Scotlands Day of shame” to get the reality of the union.

    60. Jockanese Wind Talker says:

      So there we have it in black and white!

      Mhairi Hunter one of Sturgeons inner circle confirming that the SNP knew all along what a 2/3 Parliamentary majority would have meant for the cause of Scottish Independence in 2021 when they actively campaigned against SNP 1, ALBA 2 at the Holyrood election!

      These chancers should not be allowed any where near a convention of the estates!

      Sturgeon Resign!

    61. James Che says:

      Xaracen,

      It took a while to get back to you, good days and sad days after mums funeral, sorry for the delay.

      Replied under Revs post, Scotlands Day of Shame.

    62. James Che says:

      Socrates MacSporran,

      I totally agree with you that we should withdraw our Snp from Westminster on the basis of Scotland being nothing more than a Colony with no democratic right to self determination.

      But also because of the reasons I gave in answer to Xaracens post,
      These are the last responses under Scotlands day of Shame, 24th Nov 2022.

    63. Republicofscotland says:

      Here are all the current MSPs listed next to their constituencies with an E-Mail icon next to their names, or alternatively put your postcode in at the top of the page to find your MSP (if it’s a SNP/Green one) forget the Tory/Lib/Dem and Labour ones as they don’t care if Scotland is held as prisoner within this oneside union.

      If you have a SNP/Green MSP (check the area they represent next to their names if it’s your area, then you need to E-Mail them as soon as, and tell them what the Rev has outlined above as a way to restore a democratic process that will allow us to vote on whether or not to stay in or leave this “Union”.

      https://www.parliament.scot/msps/current-and-previous-msps

      We cannot stop Sturgeon from allowing this to continue, but the SNP/Green MSPs can, they can refuse to continue on this route that has saw Scots now classed as second class citizens, trapped in a onesided union with no recourse to leave it.

      The SNP/Green MSP’s MUST do the right thing for their country, its unthinkable for them to sit on their hands for another two-years and do nothing.

    64. James Che says:

      Breeks.

      See Xaracens post, 24th Nov 2022.
      The English parliament, Unbroken Continuity of 800 years.

      Xaracen, Hope you do not mind my referring people to you’re comments and wisdom

    65. Lenny Hartley says:

      Forget a so called plebiscite election in two years, back in the in 1949/1950 The Scottish Covenant Association gathered over 2 million signatures for Home Rule. Join Salvo get your family and friends to sign up, if need be set up tables (in the Spring) in your local Communities to explain the Claim of Right and its relevance today and collect signatures.
      If Salvo get 100,000 signatures they will move things on and take our case to the International Court of Justice citing the Claim of Right that the Scots are Sovereign not an English Parliament or Court. As King Chuck the Turd very recently swore fealty to uphold the Claim of Right then I presume he would be batting for us, otherwise he would be on a very sticky wicket!

    66. Geoff Anderson says:

      They are a bunch of Can’ts

    67. Republicofscotland says:

      These are the words tweeted by Scotland’s FM tweeted on the 23rd after the UKSC decision.

      “A law that doesn’t allow Scotland to choose our own future without Westminster consent exposes as myth any notion of the UK as a voluntary partnership & makes case for Indy”

      We now know that there’s no route to leaving this union via Westminster, and that a plebiscitary GE in a whopping two-years time down the road, will see 16 and 17 years excluded from voting in it, if it materalises at all.

      The Rev has pointed out a perfectly good and democratic way for Scots to choose whether or not to leave or stay in what can only be described as an undemocratic onesided union.

      The details on how to achieve the vote have been clearly outlined above by the Rev, the big stumbling block is that we need SNP/Green MSPs to comply with it, and we need Scotland’s FM Nicola Sturgeon to resign to get the ball rolling, we can’t compel her to resign but her MSPs can.

      Basically, where we go from here now rests in the hands of the indy MSPs we elected to deliver Scottish independence, now is their chance to fulfill that promise.

      If they decide not to compel the FM to resign then Scots will continue to be second class citizens and Scotland will remain imprisoned within this onesided union, however if they act as we know they can, Scotland could become an independent country as soon as next year.

      It’s all now down to what SNP/Green MSPs do or don’t do, they hold the key, and we are watching.

    68. Big Jock says:

      Withdraw from Westminster and our MP’s sit in the visitors section above the chamber as de-facto Scottish parliament MP’s. Let the Brits come and try and remove them!

      In order to get independence. We have to do something leftfield, risky and against the Colonial rulers. Imagine the worldwide headlines.’ Scottish MP’s Go On Strike For Democracy’.

      Right now the world is wondering if Scotland is simply a willing slave of the empire.

    69. scozzie says:

      The very fact that she/her did not recall the SNP MPs from WM back to Scotland and exercise the Scottish people’s sovereignty by enforcing an HR election (by standing down her government) on the basis of the UKSC decision tells us all we need to know.

      2 years of can kicking suits the SNP gravy bus just fine.
      TBH when the next GE rolls round she’s probably banking on it all being a distant memory on the carrot farm.

    70. Republicofscotland says:

      A sign of all that is desperately wrong in Scotland, when the branch manager of a foreign countries (England) Labour party in Scotland BLiS, is voted Scottish Politician of the Year.

      BLiS manager at Holyrood Anas Sarwar, has absolutely no interest in seeing Scotland reach its potential, for that road begins with Scottish independence, that’s something his boss in a foreign country (England) never wants to see happen.

      so, to recap on the above, a politician at Holyrood that works for a foreign countries party, a party that doesn’t want to see Scotland reach its potential, has been voted Scottish Politician of the Year.

      https://twitter.com/SalmondSalmond/status/1596132880241025024

    71. scozzie says:

      How did little Latvia and Estonia or any of the other tiny populated countries get their independence from the Soviet Union? They struck while the iron was hot (to coin a recent quote from Stu)…
      The Soviet Union was crumbling (much like the UK is today albeit not a carbon copy) but the UK has never been so weak – politically, economically, internationally.
      If I was a savvy FM I’d be using the UK’s weak position plus its recent ‘we decide you plebs’ ruling to agitate a Scottish sovereign election for independence.
      Jeebus…we need swift action now.

    72. Republicofscotland says:

      The SNP’s MP Angus B. McNeil gets it, and so must his SNP MSP colleagues at Holyrood.

      It’s imperative that they do.

      “Independence is now in the gift of the Scottish Gov.

      They can create a Holyrood Election anytime in next few months under Sec 3 of the same 1998 Scotland Act that was judged on today against a ref!

      Things have changed and changed utterly.”

      https://twitter.com/AngusMacNeilSNP/status/1595495075416522753?cxt=HHwWgoCysauUq6QsAAAA

    73. Shug says:

      Funny the BBC now has no mention of the supreme court decision and fallout.

      Just what Nicola would want really

      Funny that

    74. sarah says:

      @ Republicofscotland: I emailed my 3 Green/SNP MSPs and the FM last night to explain the mechanism available to trigger a Holyrood election and pointing out, politely, the urgent need and how popular they would be for getting independence.

      No response from any of them as yet.

      Well done for providing Wings readers with the tools to make it easy for everyone to email their MSPs in your comment at 2.53.

    75. Andy Ellis says:

      @ Dave Munro

      “If Scotland ends the Union, there is no “UK” to veto anything, because England would not be a Continuer UK State.”

      Good luck with that …..

      The trouble is nobody really knows WHAT the position will be with respect to the post independence situation. A lot of folk expect and assert that “RUK” will be regarded as the successor state and continue with the UN Security Council seat, and assume the rights and obligations of “current” UK, but it isn’t assured by any means.

      The Russian Federation was officially the continuator or successor state of the USSR, but in the cases of Czechoslovakia and Yugoslavia there was no continuator/successor. There is no settled international legal position or settled precedent in these matters, as it hasn’t happened all that often, and each situation tends to vary widely in practice, history and circumstances.

      Perhaps if the UK implodes the UN might feel the time is right for a bit of a re-organisation and the replacement of the British and French security council seats with seats for (say) the EU seat, India, Indonesia, Nigeria or Brasil?

      Of course one advantage of RUK asserting that it was the continuator/successor would be that it could assume liability for the whole of the UK’s debt. I’d take that deal in a New York minute.

    76. scozzie says:

      My last ramblings for the night – got an election here in Oz so on the wines again…
      This week I was at a business conference – we had a motivational speaker from SAS (Oz).
      He was applying SAS philosophy to business (but I couldn’t help thinking this applies to politics (our independence):
      Mission – one simple goal
      Plan – war game it all out each possible worst case scenario
      Keep it simple – the path of least resistance is always best
      Team – everyone has to be on point and know what’s required of them. Use the human, physical or strategic capabilities at your disposal.
      Self – keep your rifle ready i.e. be ready to step up (pretty much if it all turns to shit)

      So this is how they plan every military mission. Where are we on this trajectory?
      Truth be told, not sure the SNP have even worked out the mission part!!!

    77. Robert Louis says:

      And…this is why we need Wings. Now every freaking so-called ‘journalist’ in Scotland, and every single MSP knows it can be done (because they all read this site).

      So, why will the scotgov and Nicola Sturgeon prefer to sit on their hands and do NOTHING??? Simple, they prefer the power they currently have, with the rather lucrative salaries, instead of fighting for Scottish independence.

      Sturgeon is either incompetent, or wilfully working on behalf of the English. Either way, she is a major roadblock to independence. We need to sidestep her, her cabal of nodding donkey MP’s (who literally do nothing except cash their ludicrous pay checks), and set up a convention of the estates.

      I simply can no longer understand how so many pro indy folk have not now woken up to the fact that Sturgeon has ZERO intention of going for independence. It is blindingly clear.

      The SNP are becoming less and less relevant to the independence cause with every single tick of the clock.

    78. Viscount Ennui says:

      In ‘Thief of Time’, our learned friend makes the key point that many years appear to have been wasted and opportunities lost.
      It is very difficult to disagree with that synposis.
      Over that period of time, what has struck me most is the lack of action in planning for independence. In 2014, I suspect that what tipped the balance was the failure of John Swinney to present any credible financial arguments to support secession nor a distinctive economic strategy.
      In this forum, there are good people who have articulated very cogent plans for Scotland to be steered towards a maritime orientation with the development of an infrastructure to support transport, trade, and tourism around our spectacular coastline. This would also result in a growth in maritime engineering and associated industries. Credible. Practical. Sane.
      Scotland is also the only part of the UK that can stake claim to having the potential to re-grow areas of (quasi) wilderness with a ecology to attract eco-tourism. It would take bold steps and significant land reform, but that was always part of the SNP’s true manifesto before it was hijacked by the urban elite.
      Our technology sector is already performing well but hampered by inadequate investment in associated manufacturing, simply because that is not currently fashionable, and yet the bigger companies are now moving operations from Asia to the uSA and Europe because of supply chain concerns. Why not SCotland. Because there is no political interest or will.
      But the real potential for growth and efficiencies lies in the public sector which is managed so badly now due to cronyism, a lack of accountability, and political interference.
      The grim truth is that NS is a manager and not a leader. She has surrounded herself with clones like Swinney, Forbes and Useless, who would struggle to sustain their posts in your average local authority.
      The leadership vacuum is there for all to see.
      Salmond and Cherry. Now that would be a different matter altogether.

    79. Robert Louis says:

      Alex Salmond understands this. He said as much in his informative interview. You do not ask permission, you act and do things, and it is then in their court to decide to block (by whatever means). This is about perceptions.

      So, if the indyref bill went through the scot parliament, and only THEN the UK government had to go to the supreme court to block, you see how it looks. On Wednesday the scotgov were reported to have lost their case, but had it been an attempt by Westminster to BLOCK Scotland having a referendum, after having gained majority consent in the scots parliament, it would look soo much different to the whole world. The reports would be Westminster blocks Scottish indyref, or Uk government goes to court to prevent referendum.

      Pre 2014, Alex Salmond didn’t write to David Cameron to ask permission for a referendum, he just announced he was doing it, and would allow input from London. It put London on the backfoot. THAT is how it is done. Westminster knows this, and must chuckle every time Sturgeon talks of asking for a section 30. If I was in the Westminster government, I wouldn’t take that seriously either. It is childish, and shows a complete lack of confidence.

      It is about HOW IT LOOKS. Nicola’s perpetual begging permisssion is as pathetic as it is politically inept.

    80. ScottieDog says:

      I think for this to happen, we are first looking at a leadership challenge – and someone takes Angus Robertson on a space flight at the same time.

    81. Rab Davis says:

      From Hollywood to Holyrood.

      Brian Cox says Nicola Sturgeon is the one who will lead us to Scottish Independence.

      The National.

      It really does make you want to scream.

    82. twathater says:

      It appears from some comments that we have some devolutionists and don’t scare the horses types posting , we can’t do that because the unionists will be upset, or WM will never agree to that,or england will be upset if they aren’t called the rest of the uk,TBQH I don’t give a flying fuck what england thinks, because SIMPLES they have PROVEN ENDLESSLY that they don’t give a flying fuck about Scots

      Alex has stated that he wants ALL parties to unite and go forward collectively with an indy challenge, correct me if I am wrong , A certain Mr Salmond called on independence supporters to bury the hatchet and think of Scotland by voting for SNP 1 and ALBA 2 to ensure a SUPERMAJORITY in HR and give WM notice that independence was coming

      A response by Ms Sturgeon of the SNP to Mr Salmond’s magnanimous instruction to ALBA supporters

      FUCK OFF Alex I will never speak or interact with you ever, “SNP support I am INSTRUCTING YOU TO VOTE SNP 1 AND 2 ONLY, do NOT vote for any OTHER party

      And lest anyone ever forget whilst ALBA supporters were crawling over broken glass to give their support and their votes to the SNP , SNP supporters were having a great time on twatter and elsewhere RIDICULING ALBA’S derisory vote, a notable and formidable (according to him) twatter user who wears slippers was having orgasms with a blocking frenzy

      As usual there are many good suggestions on how to move forward and even challenge WM including Mr Salmonds suggestion BUT and it is a humungous BUT no one has offered any real means to force the deviant pervert to ACT never mind even LISTEN
      DOES anyone really think that this creature doesn’t know what she is doing , sturgeon will ONLY DO what sturgeon wants to do, Scotland and Scots can just do one

    83. Mia says:

      “The place to attack is the place where the power lies – Westminster”

      I disagree with this in the strongest possible terms.

      First of all, Westminster is not where the power lies. It never was. The power sits either with the crown or on with the people.

      What we are seeing at present is nothing more than a wrestling match where the crown is using every institution it controls to steal our power away from us and put it in another institution which it directly controls by means of the UK executive.

      It is getting away with it because Scotland at present has no political representatives other than the 2 Alba MPs actually representing our side. Every single one of them, bar the 2 Alba MPs, appear to have sided with the crown and against us. Just like it happened in 1706.

      If Scotland’s power lied with Westminster, the crown would not have needed to invest such level of energy in trashing the reputation of the Supreme court, the Sgov, the COPFS, the parliament, the UK gov, England’s parties and English judges to continuously tell us it is.

      The idea that England MPs have more sovereignty of Scotland than our own, or than ourselves is simply absurd and falls at the first challenge. It is embarrassing seeing judges trashing the reputation of the justice profession by entering this partisan political game and an insult to the intelligence to the average Scottish voter to think we can ever believe such level of desperate crap.

      Westminster and the crown which controls it only has power over Scotland for as long as our political representatives continue to hand our power away. Westminster is nothing more than a by-product of the union which will cease to exist should Scotland’s representatives ever grow the balls and enough loyalty to their country to face the crown and revoke the treaty of union and end this toxic union.

      And THAT is what the UK establishment is so desperate to take our minds off from and why it needs to tell us constantly the power lies with Westminster and only Westminster can revoke that treaty. Because if it gets revoked, all treaties forged for the last 300 years, all trade deals, the NATO, UN seats etc will cease to apply and England will have to start, like Scotland, from zero. But repeating a lie does not make it truth, does it?

      That is why it is so imperative for the UK establishment and the useful idiots in the SNP doing the dirty work on its behalf that the people of Scotland swallow the nonsense that we are not a country but a colony. That is why Mr Keatings’ case had to be trashed in the Scottish courts with the excuse that the bill had not been passed, therefore the case was, allegedly, premature.

      If Scottish courts and the English court that calls itself “supreme court” operated under the same law, the outcome of the Lord Advocate case and that of Mr Keatings’ case should have been the exact same. The bill did not exist in any of both cases. The question was in both cases, premature. But the outcome in both courts was not the same.

      This leads one to think that had the loser leading the SNP brought the bill to Holyrood so this was passed with the pro-indy majority, a Scottish court would have thrown a very different outcome to that of an English court operating under an English law principle of parliamentary sovereignty and with a clear vested interest in the union to continue.

      Should the treaty of union be revoked, the “supreme court” would cease to exist, therefore how on earth could have ever this court been seen as impartial on the matter of Scotland’s independence by an allegedly knowledgeable and competent lord advocate and a FM, a lawyer herself?

      If the treaty of union is revoked, the Scottish courts remains. The “UK supreme court”, the same as the UK parliament, loses its legitimacy.

      So what was the real reason the lady advocate, working for Sturgeon’s gov, took the case to an English court which was not impartial to the matter rather than to a Scottish one which was?

      And if the Supreme court was not impartial, how on earth can we trust its ruling?

      It is my opinion the case was taken to this biased English court to give the crown the opportunity to tell us, even if untrue, that our sovereignty lies with a byproduct of the treaty of union, an institution that is renewed every 2-5 years and that is directly controlled by the Crown itself via its executive.

      Taken the case to the Supreme court was nothing more than another of Sturgeon’s charades. One of the mile-list long of charades Sturgeon has wasted our time and our majorities with for the last 8 years to fabricate the illusion Scotland has no power.

      So I do not think we do not have to direct our fight to the union byproducts, being that the supreme court or westminster. We have to direct our fight where it counts: those who being elected to represent us, being elected to end this union, have betrayed us and instead have misused our yes votes to preserve a union that is harming us and to hand over the people of Scotland’s sovereignty and power to the crown.

      Westminster can no longer call itself “the UK parliament” if Scotland is no longer represented in it by a majority of its MPs. So what has stopped Sturgeon’s SNP for the last 8 years from denying that parliament the right to call itself “UK of Great Britain” parliament?

      They have had THREE opportunities since Sturgeon took over to refuse to take the seats and refuse allegiance to the crown. Sinn Fein only needed one. But Sinn Fein wanted independence. Sturgeon’s SNP clearly does not.

      The UK establishment claims the power to hold a referendum lies with Westminster. Well then, what has stopped Sturgeon’s SNP MPs for the last 8 years from standing up and announcing in the UK parliament they are transferring ALL their powers to Scotland’s MPs sitting in Holyrood so that referendum can be held?

      Better even. In 1706 the only thing it took to drag Scotland kicking and screaming into this union was a majority of MPs which was achieved with bribes and threats. The first round of MPs Scotland sent to Westminster were not even elected by the people of Scotland. The pro-union MPs sitting in Scotland’s parliament decided on their own accord (backed by the crown, of course) they would be better elected among themselves to stop an anti-union majority of Scotland’s MPs to be sent to Westminster and terminating the union before it even started.

      So what has stopped Scotland’s SNP MPs for the last 8 years to hold a vote among themselves to terminate the union? If a majority of Scottish MPs had enough power to force Scotland into a treaty against its will, then a majority of Scotland’s MPs must be sufficient to terminate that treaty.

      Why asking us to look at Westminster when the accountability for transferring power from Scotland to the crown and the institutions it controls lies with our own MSPs and MPs?

      Why directing our fight to Westminster when those responsible for our own current situation are the MPs and MSPs elected to represent us but who chose to not represent us?

      The Crown via an English court and English judges has been able to claim our power lies in Westminster because we have had colonial minded MPs and MSPs masquerading as Scottish nationalists for the last 8 years.

      If we want our power back, it is not England MPs who we should be challenging and demanding accountability from. It is the useless Scottish MPs and MSPs who have betrayed us by continuously handing our power away where all accountability lies.

    84. Viscount Ennui says:

      25 November, 2022 at 5:44 pm

      If we want our power back, it is not England MPs who we should be challenging and demanding accountability from. It is the useless Scottish MPs and MSPs who have betrayed us by continuously.

      Nailed it.

    85. Astonished says:

      Glad I’m paying (a tiny proportion of) your wages.

      The sooner folk see through Sturgeon – The better.

      Vivian – I also like ‘Queen Cnut’.

      We gotta do something. Sadly, all the SNP lack is honest leadership.

    86. Viscount Ennui says:

      Astonished says:
      25 November, 2022 at 6:04 pm

      We gotta do something. Sadly, all the SNP lack is honest leadership.

      So, playing devil’s advocate, WTF would you give them power through independence.

      That is my issue. I would not vote for the SNP and therefore I am denying my own nationality.

    87. Republicofscotland says:

      Sarah @ 4.35pm.

      Well done Sarah, I’ve sent E-Mails to mine as well, and had no reply yet, but I’m willing to give them and other indy MSPs time.

      If they decide to do the decent and proper thing it will first take time to sink in, and then even more time to decide how to approach it and complete it, so yes, they have some leeway in my book, however we need a response to our E-Mails one way or another.

      For those who still haven’t E-mailed their SNP/Green MSPs if they have them please do it now, outlining the Rev’s democratic route above (the article).

      The link is below, if you prefer, put your postcode in the box to find your MSPs.

      Here are all the current MSPs listed next to their constituencies with an E-Mail icon next to their names, or alternatively put your postcode in at the top of the page to find your MSP (if it’s a SNP/Green one) forget the Tory/Lib/Dem and Labour ones as they don’t care if Scotland is held as prisoner within this oneside union.

      If you have a SNP/Green MSP (check the area they represent next to their names if it’s your area, then you need to E-Mail them as soon as, and tell them what the Rev has outlined above as a way to restore a democratic process that will allow us to vote on whether or not to stay in or leave this “Union”.

      https://www.parliament.scot/msps/current-and-previous-msps

    88. Effijy says:

      Thanks for explaining who our parliament can operate.

      It’s been just too much for the dozens and dozens of SNP MSPs to
      Read into, understand and explain their options to the pubic.

      The parliament that has been around for over 23 years.

      So something big and challenging now or get out!

    89. Stoker says:

      “ScottieDog says on 25 November 2022 at 5:18 pm
      I think for this to happen, we are first looking at a leadership challenge – and someone takes Angus Robertson on a space flight at the same time.”

      I’d rather take him on a long walk off a short pier, along with the rest of them.

      BTW, good to see you posting again, it’s been a very long time. Too long!

    90. Dan says:

      I’m still hedging my bets that global warming and the resultant sea levels rises flooding the House of Commons will be the only way the SNP will leave Westminster.
      The mild weather and relentless pishing rain are hopefully improving the odds in my favour.
      Though word on the street is Pete Wishart has already bought SCUBA gear…
      #ComfyFlippers

    91. sarah says:

      O/T: iScot magazine’s fundraiser needs help. Target £25,000 and only reached £2,913 since 1st November.

      Any spare cash will be warmly welcomed, I’m sure, whatever the amount.

    92. Orri says:

      It’s not certain that England could simply decide on it’s own independence. It’s highly likely but there’s two possibilities. One is the balance of power might be that despite a majority of English MPs being for it those in Scotland, Wales, and NI might vote against. The opposite is true.

      The difference in reactions, though, might be the same as when the Poll Tax was introduced in Scotland and in England.

    93. Rab Davis says:

      After that boot in the Chuckies we received the other day,,,the detestation towards the bastards of England only grows.

    94. Stoker says:

      Just think, folks, this is how easy Scottish Unionists are bought. With extremely poor propaganda like this – It isn’t even anywhere near completed and they’re milking it already. “Wallace hails shipbuilders…” Aye! The chosen few! Scottish shipbuilding has been utterly destroyed almost into non-existent.

      “Wallace hails shipbuilders as frigate HMS Glasgow hits construction milestone” https://archive.ph/GCMNE

      Folks, if you click on that link and continue scrolling down, the next story may interest some: “Fish ‘capable of killing 30 people’ and 1,200 times deadlier than cyanide hits UK shores”

      One fish-supper coming right up for Mr & Mrs Murrell, on the house. 😉

      Do you think they would let me do the catering for their SNP Spring “chat”? Just a thought! LOL!

    95. Robert Hughes says:

      Dan @ 6.40

      ” Comfy flippers ” HA !

      I imagine every day the WM SNPpers make a pilgrimage to the Thames Barrier to reassure themselves it’s still working as intended ( unlike them ) and to give praise to that wonderful piece of engineering for keeping their nice wee padded seats in the HOC safe n secure . For now .

      Good to see Mia here again . Sing oot sista 🙂

    96. James Che says:

      Mia.

      The English parliament, Unbroken Continuity for 800 years.?

      Ahem I thought the treaty stopped it.

      The Scottish parliament stopped in 1707, due to the treaty.

      Any questions spring to mind?

    97. TGC says:

      SNP and others are saying that if a Scottish government election is used as a vote for or against Scottish independence it is likely that unionists would boycott it and Westminster would reject the result as not a true reflection of the will of the people of Scotland.

      I had a think about this and concluded that even if a majority in Scotland voted in favour of Scottish independence in a UK general election it is likely that Westminster would still reject the result as proof that a majority of people in Scotland favour Scottish independence because we have heard them saying 60% required , 70% required , majority of actual population required rattan majority of voters required.

      We are not dealing with reasonable or rational people here Westminster don’t play fair forget that notion

      A Scottish government election asap is the forward foot option just do it we will handle the reactions afterwards

    98. Kev says:

      And thats why you’re paid the big bucks, Stu! Articles like this making sense of fairly tediously boring, but highly important, detail, and summarising it all perfectly for us plebs. Welcome back!

      Still boggles the mind how 3 times as many folk can trust the Scottish Parliament more than WM, but still omly under 50% for indy, just nuts, but that’s what we’re up against I suppose.

    99. Geoff Anderson says:

      I assume this has already been posted. Sorry if it has.
      I was angry before but after reading this I was incandescent

      https://robinmcalpine.org/when-lost-stop-following-what-led-you-here/

    100. Merganser says:

      Geoff Anderson @ 8.13pm.

      The believers will still follow her. I have likened her to the Pied Piper before, and referred to her magical spell over people.

      She got the pardon for witches in for a reason.

      Anyone with any sense who reads Robin’s article will see what she has done. Trouble is, there seems too many people who have no sense. Starting with all the SMP’s.

    101. Viscount Ennui says:

      Sturgeon and Swinney are now happier than they have ever been. No pressure on them. It is all WM’s fault.
      They have a guaranteed mandate to screw civic society in this once proud country and blame Truss/Sunak or whoever.
      The cheapest way of selling-out a country.
      It beggars belief.

    102. Robert Louis says:

      Scottie dog at 518pm,

      Yes, Angus would be a definite no no. Worse for so many well kent reasons. Not sure if the SNP really are the people to lead us to independence. Most are just comfy doing nothing and taking the pay checks. It’s a day job for them, their ‘career’, a very well paid one. In a few years many of them will retire. You won’t see them on indy marches, they’ll be doing other things.

      What really cuts, is the fact that Sturgeon was so unprepared. Yet again she puts in place a delay, unsure of what to do. Losing momentum, holding us back.

      Business as usual for the SNP.

    103. ScottieDog says:

      @Stoker
      Thanks! Nice to be back!

    104. Joe says:

      “Peter A Bell says:25 November, 2022 at 11:55 am
      The course of action I have in mind is #ScottishUDI. This may be summarised as follows….”

      HaHaHaHa

      Get in the Sea.

    105. Effijy says:

      I was in Spain but record Question Time to keep an eye on BBC propaganda and remind myself of how little Scots have in common with English audiences.

      I felt certain that Scotland being declared a prisoner would be the main topic.

      Nope! Not a word about it.

      Why waste time on an insignificant and powerless Colony?

      We are nothing in this so called partnership and our main Independence party have settled for a nice chat about it the Spring, if England permits it.

    106. John Main says:

      @Geoff Anderson says:25 November, 2022 at 8:13 pm

      Knock out post from Robin McAlpine there. Thanks for the link. Here’s a wee quote that resonated with me:

      So, having retraced our steps, can you identify the uniting factor behind all the forks in the path that led the independence movement to this point? Yup, it was all the result of listening to vague dog whistles and believing substance-free assertions.

      As I have been making the same point for some time now, I won’t be arguing with Robin about that one.

    107. John Main says:

      @Joe says:26 November, 2022 at 3:32 am

      HaHaHaHa

      Peter A Bell at 25 November, 2022 at 11:55 am, outlined at least a superficially plausible course for Indy.

      In doing so, his post is rare here, to the point of 1 in 10,000, or maybes 1 in a million.

      Maybes you intend to spend the next 10 years on here, endlessly re-posting “Tories baaaad”, “English baaaad”, “SNP tractors” and we will get Indy through that?

      Best of luck.

    108. Ian Brotherhood says:

      As a male Scot I can declare that I am actually a woman, have a friend confirm as much, then secure official validation. My feelings trump my biology.

      But if I declare – under oath if need be – that I feel my family, community and nation is being exploited, humiliated, oppressed etc then I’m nothing more than a paranoid malcontent.

      Seems that some ‘feels’ are more important than others.

      ‘Do you feel colonised? Well do ya, punk?’

    109. Robert Hughes says:

      @ John Main

      ” Knock out post from Robin McAlpine there. Thanks for the link. Here’s a wee quote that resonated with me: ”

      ” So, having retraced our steps, can you identify the uniting factor behind all the forks in the path that led the independence movement to this point? Yup, it was all the result of listening to vague dog whistles and believing substance-free assertions. ” ”

      Yes , John , a typically perspicacious article by Robin – he’s right , as he – almost – always is . One point he got wrong though ……

      ” She dedicated the next year to… being on TV every day. It seemed shockingly cynical to me but you all seemed to find it ‘reassuring’ so what do I know. ”

      No , not ” all ” of us found the daily Covid floor-show ” reassuring “, on the contrary , many of us found Sturgeon’s ” look at me Nurse Ratched saving the nation ” ( borrowed from one of her crushes – Bride of Dracula Ardern ) revolting : equally , her robotic , unquestioning parroting of the deeply flawed * Official * apocalyptic virus narrative . Also , many of stopped listening / taking even slightly serious the SNP ” dog-whistles and substance-free assertions ” – years ago .

      I agree with you on Peter Bell’s comments too .

      I honestly don’t know what more it will take ( after the UKSC kick in the baws ) to convince people there’s is no way the * British * State is going to * allow * Scotland to escape the yoke of Union . How much clearer can they make it ?

    110. PacMan says:

      In the YouTube video that was on the previous post, Alex Salmond mentioned that even unionists agree that Scotland has the right to be an independent country if the majority of Scots chose that option. He also mentioned that the Supreme court ruling has taken that option away.

      Of course there is the suspicion that this is a politically convenient position for unionists to take and they are secretly rejoicing this decision.

      Politically, the unionists in Northern Ireland are finding out the true cost of the Union where they have been effectively thrown to the wolves as the price of making Westminster’s Brexit work.

      The same thing will happen to the unionists in Scotland when unpopular decisions are implemented on Scotland that it is to their detriment politically.

      Another aspect which I think needs to be taken into consideration and is based on anecdotal evidence is the psychological aspect of this decision on unionists here in Scotland.

      Based on my experience with individuals throughout the years whom have expressly directly or indirectly declared their support for the union, I have got a sense of pride in being part of the UK but also detected a bit of arrogance where the Scots are punching above their weight and are almost equal partners.

      That’s just my perspective of my interaction with unionist leaning people and I may have picked it wrongly but if I am right then then the SC ruling will be kick in the teeth for them, maybe not now but in the future when the go to their fancy do’s with their English friends with their kilts and all that gear on or go their Rugby matches with their Scotland tops on.

      As I said, this is a purely anecdotal perspective of mine and may be totally wrong but lets look at this way, can unionists now say they are proud to be Scottish and British where it is now has the same value as someone for example someone in England to say that they are proud to be from Yorkshire and British, Geordie and British or Scouse and British?

    111. Scotsrenewables says:

      Surprised how quiet it is on here.

      Question… does Alex (or anyone else) have enough ammo to blow Sturgeon out of the water?

      Question 2 – if he/they do, what might eventually prompt him/them to press the button?

      Question 3 – what more will it take for the remaining SNP MPs and MSPs with a grain of integrity left to break their silence and start making serious waves?

      I am starting to get the feeling that Sturgeon’s jaiket is on an increasingly shoogly peg. Anyone else feel these twinges of hope that Scotland may soon wake from its dream?

    112. Robert Hughes says:

      ” I am starting to get the feeling that Sturgeon’s jaiket is on an increasingly shoogly peg. Anyone else feel these twinges of hope that Scotland may soon wake from its dream? ”

      Well , aye n naw . You would think the sheer incoherence and glaringly obvious lack of clue displayed by Sturgeon/NSNP * must * lead to more people waking from the fever-dream of their leader’s – laughable – * infallibility * .

      Will they though ? Crucially , will they do so in sufficient numbers and in sufficient time to prevent the utter destruction of our cause ? Be in no doubt , if she/they are allowed to continue on the path their on , it will end in total carnage

    113. Robert Hughes says:

      ” they’re on “

    114. Willie says:

      I suspect you are right Scot Renewables about Sturgeon’s Jaiket being on a shoogly peg.

      The demand for independence has not gone away. Sturgeon’s eight years of obstruction and trying to dismantle the independence movement is now at the endgame. She is at the end of her road and things will now change.

      Indeed if you read the papers yesterday and the statement from the chief constable from our very own political biased RUC styled Police Scotland you’ll see that chief constable Livingston is up for political police intervention.

      As an arm of the British state, and if you look at the complexion of the senior officers being ex RUC, ex National Crime Agency, Ex Military Police, ex Military intelligence, you’ll see how Police Scotland is so similar to the late foul apartheid era South African Police Force. ( but Salmond, Hirst, Murray, Singh, Ferrier and many more tells us that already, and this latest political intervention tells us that independence marches are set to be banned.

      All establishment assets are now in play save for the extra judicial killings that Britain is well know for.

      And Sturgeon, her usefulness as the Betrayer is coming to an end. She will be gone.

    115. Dave Munro says:

      “I felt certain that Scotland being declared a prisoner would be the main topic.”

      Scotland Act means what it says as per the legal advice given to the FM is hardly news is it!

    116. Breastplate says:

      Unfortunately, Sturgeon will be here for as long as the ginger nuts believe she is the Messiah.

      Never over estimate the intelligence or under estimate the gullibility of the remnant SNP supporters.
      The penny hasn’t dropped for many and will never drop for some.

    117. Colin the Keelie says:

      At its recent conference Alba rejected the wisdom that UK democracy is a dead-end. Calls to avoid focusing its energies and funds on fighting elections was rejected. We were told fighting elections is what political parties do and Alba delegates agreed with Alex.

      However, the UKSC confirmed: there is no democratic route out of the UK.

      Others think the UK will bow to a ruling in international law on self-determination. But, the UKSC has pre-empted that one declaring international law on self-determination would not apply to Scotland.

      Claim of Right. The Scottish constitution of sovereignty of the people. The SNP Scottish Government’s own lawyer argued Scotland does not exist and the UKSC agreed.

    118. Joe McCusker says:

      Good to have you back!

    119. Joe says:

      Colin the Keelie says:26 November, 2022 at 10:49 am

      At its recent conference Alba rejected the wisdom that UK democracy is a dead-end. Calls to avoid focusing its energies and funds on fighting elections was rejected. We were told fighting elections is what political parties do and Alba delegates agreed with Alex.
      However, the UKSC confirmed: there is no democratic route out of the UK.
      ————————————————-
      Not at all true, the rules for the first Indyref were well known to both Salmond and Sturgeon and are set out and explained here , all we need to do is to show a hard proven majority want one not a 30% minority trying to demand one. (Google it) The rules for an Indyref have not changed since 2014. We just need to go out and convince No Voters and the Waverers. https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2012/oct/15/alex-salmond-scotland-referendum-deal

    120. Goodgollymissmolly says:

      There are 9 bolshie SNP anti-self ID MSPs who might want ammendments in return for their support. Also, the Greens might quite like being in government.
      This plan only works if Sturgeon has dominance over every vote, including her own MSPs who might worry about their seat.

    121. Mia says:

      @Joe

      “The rules for an Indyref have not changed since 2014”

      And right there lies in the problem, Joe

      “the rules”.

      Whose rules? Who established those “rules” and who gave them the authority, never mind the legitimacy to do so?

      Scotland is an equal partner in a voluntary union. It is not for England representatives, English judges nor the crown itself to establish “the rules” by which the sovereign people of Scotland chooses to exercise their legitimate right to unilaterally revoke that treaty and terminate a union which has become toxic for Scotland’s economic and demographic growth and is being used as an excuse by our partner to hijack our resources and use our landmass to park or dispose of its nuclear waste.

      The only “rules” that count here are the ones the people of Scotland choose to establish and to abide by.

      The sooner we realise of that, the sooner we will start to move forward.

    122. Paul Bassett says:

      Sorry, Stuart, but can’t go along with your analysis. Here’s my take on it:

      https://stageleft.blog/2022/11/26/youre-gonna-need-a-bigger-vote/

      Best,
      Paul Bassett/STAGE LEFT

    123. Xaracen says:

      Colin the Keelie said:

      “Claim of Right. The Scottish constitution of sovereignty of the people. The SNP Scottish Government’s own lawyer argued Scotland does not exist and the UKSC agreed.”

      Yeah, right!

      As long as there is a Crown of Scotland which even now demonstrably confers upon its wearer certain rights, powers and privileges within a specific territory and not available to any other individual within that territory, and not available to its wearer outside that territory, then that Crown and the exercise of those rights, powers and privileges confirm the continued existence of the Kingdom of Scotland within that territory. A similar argument confirms the continued existence of the Kingdom of England in its own territory. These two territories do not overlap, except arguably in the UK Parliament.

      It also confirms the continued existence and authority of Scotland’s constitution and its associated legal and judicial systems, without which those regal rights, powers and privileges cannot be legitimately defined, limited, exercised, policed or defended.

      Scotland’s Crown is only a fancy hat without Scotland’s constitution authorising its power and defining and limiting its extent. If Scotland’s Crown still has power, then so must Scotland’s constitution, and so must the sovereignty of Scotland’s people from which that constitution is derived.

      OK, it’s still only a fancy hat, but it conveniently symbolises and represents the body of Scottish constitutional law that provides the actual conferral of a deliberately limited regal power on the monarch of Scotland, and thus symbolises, represents and verifies the continued existence of Scotland’s constitution, and of Scotland as a Kingdom, a country, a nation, and a people and their national sovereignty.

    124. Xaracen says:

      The Treaty is just a treaty. Its power derives from that of its signators. The UK Parliament is not one of them.

    125. Rev. Stuart Campbell says:

      “Sorry, Stuart, but can’t go along with your analysis. Here’s my take on it”

      I can’t tell what you’re actually disagreeing with.

    126. Rev. Stuart Campbell says:

      “What am I missing? Why do the yoon parties have to accept the tactic and play along?”

      You really don’t grasp the absurdity of “opposition” parties (whose entire reason for existence is to kick the current government out and try to get elected in its place) blocking an election and leaving the country with no government indefinitely?

    127. BorderScarifier says:

      You really don’t grasp the absurdity of “opposition” parties (whose entire reason for existence is to kick the current government out and try to get elected in its place) blocking an election and leaving the country with no government indefinitely?

      I think I do grasp it. What better way to kill off the snp for decades but to let them vote themselves out of office and have to sit on their hands for two years while they don’t run the devolved govt. what do you think people will think about that? All the yoon parties have to say is that they aren’t in a position to take control as they don’t have the majority and it’s be a death knell for Labour if they joined in with the Tories. Consequently, they get to wait two years while nusnp look like they’ve abandoned the country completely. What will be the general election results after that.

      What’s their alternative; take over and have their legislative agenda trounced by the nusnp and green/boak MSPs, getting blamed for the strikes and collapse of education and the NHS in the process.

      I’d be tempted to sit and wait it out. WM would just sit back and watch it all unravel.

    128. Joe says:

      Mia says:
      26 November, 2022 at 12:40 pm

      Whose rules? Who established those “rules” and who gave them the authority, never mind the legitimacy to do so?
      ================================================================
      The rules for the last Indyref were agreed between Alex Salmond and David Cameron , too hard for you too understand ? https://m.facebook.com/Standupforscotland/photos/feel-free-to-contact-douglas-ross-mp-asking-him-to-send-to-send-you-a-copy-of-th/963030707443656/
      Scotland is still part of a Union whether you like it or not voted for by the Majority of Scots until that changes the minority (do you understand what that is ?) doesn’t get to tell the Majority what to do. Get it yet ? The minority trying to tell the Majority what to do is NOT Democracy, if you want a better Scotland you really need to start to understand this instead of just trying to be some sort of fascist. https://www.dailyrecord.co.uk/news/politics/scottish-independence-poll-2023-vote-26904429



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