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Wings Over Scotland


The Thief Of Time

Posted on November 23, 2022 by

So it’s official – Scotland is not a partner in the UK, but a prisoner. Supposedly equal signatories to a treaty, we were in fact captured in 1707, with no hope of release other than at the whim of our jailer. It is an outrage, but a wholly predictable one.

Nicola Sturgeon could have put the matter of Holyrood’s legislative authority to the Supreme Court at any point since she became First Minister in November 2014. More particularly, she could have done so in July 2016, after the UK voted to leave the EU, thereby triggering a clear and explicit condition of the manifesto on which the SNP were re-elected as the Scottish Government just weeks earlier.

Instead, she’s wasted a decade of your time and probably sold Scotland’s future.

Had the matter been put to the Court and decided in 2016, the Scottish Government would have known where it stood. It could have conducted either the 2017 or 2019 UK general elections, or the 2021 Scottish election, as the plebiscite it now belatedly says it will hold in two years’ time.

It would have had an incredibly strong platform – “Vote Yes To Keep Scotland In The EU Before It’s Too Late”, a wish shared by exactly the sort of 60%+ majority it has long claimed to have wanted before holding a second vote – along with all the political momentum anyone could ever hope for (even including support from the Unionist media), and a united Yes movement still bursting with energy and enthusiasm.

(Ignore any idiot telling you Scotland would have been ejected from the EU anyway. The EU has never once forced out a people who were already members and wanted to stay that way. There might perhaps have been a very brief technical period of non-membership while the necessary paperwork was done, but it would have been covered by holding legislation to ensure a swift and smooth transition. Countless EU figures have said as much in the plainest possible terms.)

Every penny of smart money would have been on Scotland voting Yes when faced with a clear and stark choice between independence in Europe or a hard Tory Brexit.

But now? Now leaving the EU is a fait accompli and reentry would be much longer and harder. The SNP has – consciously and purposely – broken the spirit of the grassroots Yes movement (for proof see the turnout at today’s rallies) and failed to make a single step of headway in the polls despite every conceivable advantage of circumstances.

A plebiscite vote in 2024 – and we have next to no faith that the SNP will actually go through with that – will likely be conducted in the midst of a chaotic and severe recession, the worst possible time to be advocating major national upheaval. Despite having most of a decade to work on it, the party has spectacularly failed to come up with answers to any of the questions that cost us votes in 2014. For most of that time it hasn’t even been trying.

It has deliberately destroyed the reputation of Scotland’s greatest and most effective politician with false smears, and sidelined or driven out all of its most able and experienced campaigners, replacing them with rafts of catastrophically inept gender ideologues or snivelling cowards terrified to express their own thoughts lest they share the fate of people like Alex Salmond and Joanna Cherry and Kenny MacAskill.

Is it still theoretically possible we could win? Yes. Two years is a long time in politics. But the odds are overwhelmingly against it now. What could turn opinion when the last few years of Binfire UK haven’t? The best opportunities by far have been missed.

Nicola Sturgeon has single-handedly undone generations of work by people who spent their whole lives bringing the Scottish National Party to the position that she’s so abysmally squandered. It’s not just the last eight years she’s wasted, but the eight decades before them. She will be remembered as Scottish politics’ worst failure, and its gravest betrayer for 315 years.

If she had a shred of decency or dignity she would resign today over her fatal delay in obtaining this ruling. But she won’t, and between now and 2024 her toxic, incompetent, arrogant and divisive administration will destroy the last tattered hopes of the independence movement as she clings desperately to power for its own sake.

We are not surprised. But our anger is almost beyond description.

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solarflare

Is she even going to give an interview today, or just hide behind a couple of tweets?

Calum

History will not be kind to Sturgeon. Hope the Stonewall points were worth it.

Grouser

Just about to email Nicola Sturgeon to demand her resignation for all the reasons given above.

Rab Davis

Rev,

We all know what we CAN’T do,,,

What is your opinion on things we CAN do?

Breeks

Death to Holyrood. Scotland’s Parish Council is irrelevant – official. RIP.

Get your folks signing up to SALVO’s Liberation Organisation. That’s now your YES vote, so get it done and back the Convention of the Estates which takes our Red Sovereignty and Claim of Right to the UN.

We’ve wasted enough time on Sturgeon’s feckless SNP.

Has she resigned yet? Who the fuck cares? She only leads a Parish Council.

Robert Louis

Angry at it all. Angrier than I have ever been. Angry at imposed ENGLISH colonial rule over Scotland by a Government we do not want and did not vote for.

In my opinion, aside from Sturgeon’s utter failure, England no longer has ANY say in what Scotland does. It is a foreign power, interfering in Scotland’s matters. That is how they should be addressed in future, that is how they need to be treated. They are a colonial cabal stealing Scotland’s wealth and resources, all the while sneering at the people of Scotland. They are beneath contempt.

We need to stop giving succour to their diktat over Scotland, and the SNP and ALBA need to walk out of Westminster, never to return.

Either dissolve the Scottish government (which Sturgeon can do) for a plebiscite election early next year, or convene a convention of the estates of Scotland as per the Scottish claim of right and constitution, and end the union.

This will not do. Literally burning up with anger right now. How dare little England dictate when or if Scotland can have democracy. How dare they. To hell with them.

Stoker

Sturgeon states on her Twitter account:

“Scottish democracy will not be denied. Today’s ruling blocks one route to Scotland’s voice being heard on independence – but in a democracy our voice cannot and will not be silenced. I’ll make a full statement later this morning – tune in around 11.30am”

Who is she trying to fool? What’s she going to do now? Call for a gathering of ‘rainbow flags’ to vent our boo’s? We knew this decision was coming but its confirmation doesn’t make it any easier. Far from it. Scotland is being governed by a bunch of deceptive self-servers operating within a glorified county council.

Rab Davis

And who’s surprised at the judgement today?

The detested English bastards were always going to order us to shut up eat our porridge.

In the eyes of our English rulers,, Scotland is nothing more than another Shire of Greater England.

And our dear leader has fucked up big time.

I wonder what is going through the heads of her loyal fan base?

Big Jock

She has failed in her mission to deliver a referendum in 2023. That is enough to get sacked. She won’t resign of course. What she should do is resign from Holyrood and call a Scottish Election based on independence. Then take the result to the UN.

Robert Hughes

( posted on previous in error )

The English ( spare us the bollocks about the * UK * SC – it’s a English creation whose overriding priority is the preservation of English judicial supremacy ) legal High Command just took Scotland’s – always tenuous/notional – autonomy out into the street n shot it like a dog ; as I and the minority voted in the above poll it would .

Not claiming any great prescience here . I just thought it was more likely * they * would take the opportunity to put the last nail in that particular coffin .

One positive , there will now not be a Referendum next year – SHOCKER !! – so if Hopeless Hannah was planning to use the * delivery * of that as her exit music – cue discordant violins .

The obverse negative is we’re stuck with her until after the next UKGE – at least . If there wasn’t so much at stake , it may have been possible to derive some compensatory satisfaction in watching her rapidly diminishing credibility evaporate completely .

But there IS so much at stake . The only true satisfaction will come when she’s seen walking out of Bute House – forever .

As failures go , hers is of world-historical proportions

Jim Bo

I feel your anger Stu. We feel it too.

Robert Louis

Get to one of the demo’s being held tonight. Get angry. This cannot be simply allowed to stand. Democracy is OUR right. We are Scotland, and will NOT EVER be silenced.

The demos tonight are for independence, not the SNP. If you support Scottish democracy and freddom from English colonial rule, then move heaven and earth to get to one of the demos tonight. Their are fifteen across Scotland and several in Europe. This is the day. This is the moment. Demand our leaders to stand up for Scotland. Demand they act. ANY supposedly pro independence politicians who do not turn up tonight, will be seen for the charlatans and careerist frauds they are.

link to timeforscotland.scot

Alastair Campbell

I started watching the English SC and was hopeful of a positive judgement as is saw Scotland’s observers in the courtroom those Titans Law SNP spokesperson for Justice Anne McLaughlin MP and Glasgow Cllr Graham Campbell. What could go wrong.

Rab Davis

Stoker 10.44 am

She’ll tell us that only a vote for the SNP in the next General Election will save us.

A Plebiscite election will be her favoured choice of weapon.

And then she will ask Westminster for a Section 30 Order,,, again.

Westminster will say No,,,so Sturgeon will take it to the Supreme Court,,, again.

And round and round we go.

Sturgeon HAS TO RESIGN.

But then what?

Hopefully Rev Stu and his contacts have a cunning plan.

Dave S

its clear now. priority number 1: get rid of sturgeon

G-Man

We’ll, I was wrong. There was no fudge with an Obiter, just a straight ‘NO’.

Having dropped us in it with the once in a generation tosh (yes, I know it’s not in the S.30 agreement, but that’s not how politics works, is it?) we’re now also saddled with the SNP’s ‘lawful and internationally recognised’ baggage too.

Quite how all of these can be squared with a electoral referendum (even if done properly, which the SNP won’t do) I don’t know.

Pretty depressing day really. Thinking of joining Twitter just so I can ‘vent’ at some of them. Though it appears, not being the right ‘sort’, if the past experience of others is anything to go by, I’d probably just be blocked if I did.

StruanBorn

Listening to blubbering Blackford at pmq’s today will be exceptionally funny they’ll love this it means they get that gold encrusted Westminster pension their all after.

Sell outs the lot of them.

Hatuey

Who said poetry had to be uplifting;

“She will be remembered as Scottish politics’ worst failure, and its gravest betrayer for 315 years…”

The ruling was entirely as I expected and predicted. We should thank the Supreme Court for its honesty on the matter — a politely fudged refusal to give a ruling or anything along those lines would have been dishonest.

And to be perfectly clear, Scotland is and has been a prisoner all along. Those who have qualms about the use of words like “prisoner” and “colony” should consider their positions. In legal and constitutional terms, it would have been deranged for the Supreme Court to arrive at any other decision today.

Scotland like Scrooge is haunted by the ghosts of its past, present, and future. A lot of people did okay out of the empire and the union but a lot more are left impoverished and redundant by it today.

In the weeks and months ahead, the ranks of the disgruntled can be expected to grow substantially and if there’s going to be any movement in a positive direction then Alba and the independence movement will need to mobilise — not to win elections, but to win hearts and minds.

Sean

I have nothing but hate in my heart for what they have done.

Westminster and Holyrood.

Merganser

Those who have read my previous posts on this matter will know that this result is exactly what I said it would be. So what?

Good question. No comfort in being proved right on this issue. I will never see independence in my lifetime. Unlike Sturgeon, I don’t have time on my side. Many others are in the same position.

Just remember what I have said about the plebs biscuity election being another of Sturgeon’s cons, and don’t fall for it.

Astonished

Seething.

Simply Seething. I have e-mailed my MSP and MP both SNP and demanded that they vote out Blackford and Sturgeon. If they don’t I will actively campaign against them.

I have no interest in Sturgeon’s 11.30am second capitulation speech.

She has to go.

I will be at the rally.

sarah

As Grouser says, there is one thing we can all do – email the FM and our SNP MSPs [and MPs]. One word will do – RESIGN.

Robert Louis

Aye English First Minister’s questions will be interesting.

But to all those above, sounding defeated, this is now in our hands. We can whine on twitter, or actually get to the demos tonight. a huge show of numbers will matter. They are not pro SNP demos, they are pro independence demos.

Biffo

SNP = Power, Corruption and Lies. In the words of John Lydon “Jail time”.

Bill mckay

RESIGN NOW STURGEON AND LET US REPAIR THE DAMAGE

Dorothy Devine

I am so sad for my country and so disgusted with the SNP.

Robert Louis

Alex Salmond’s statement on today;

“The decision of the Supreme Court today is the result of a bad gamble that hasn’t paid off. What should have happened was the Scottish Parliament should have passed the legislation for an independence referendum and forced the UK Government to be the ones that challenged it. Real Parliaments don’t ask for permission to implement their democratic mandate. Although the verdict is hardly a surprise it now begs the question of what is the democratic route for Scots to determine their own future?

“Unionists should beware in their glee as the lesson of history is that you can postpone democracy but you cannot deny it.

“The Scottish Government now has the responsibility to find a way forward. They have led the national movement down a complete blind alley to the Supreme Court which astonishingly has gone as far as rejecting Scotland’s right of self determination. That’s what happens when you go to the wrong court with the wrong question.

“Today‘s decision must now be the spark that ignites a new popular movement like that of the Yes campaign of 2014. ALBA Party have led the way on parliamentary interventions in the UK Parliament and we call on others to join us. This must also be matched by a civic campaign of protest and action across Scotland and an Independence Convention to steer the campaign.

“Scotland’s future must be placed back in Scotland’s hands – not a parliament or a court in London.“

Source link to albaparty.org

Rab Davis

There should be a mass walk out at Westminster by all SNP and ALBA MPs.

Hatuey

Robert Louis, correct me if I’m wrong, but the demos tonight were arranged by Sturgeon’s fan base, no? Genuine question btw.

If so, what’s the point?

fillofficer

remember, the FM has had a full week to prepare her reaction to todays decision
her statement at 11.30 should be very profound, unlike jan20

Dave Munro

The “take it to the UN, they’ll listen” claim is thoroughly debunked in the very clear ruling:-

“The Scotland Act allocates powers between the United Kingdom and Scotland as part of a constitutional settlement. It establishes a
carefully calibrated scheme of devolution powers. Nothing in the allocation of powers, however widely or narrowly interpreted, infringes any principle of self-determination.
On the contrary, the legislation establishes and promotes a system of devolution founded on principles of subsidiarity.”

Robert Louis

Hatuey,

Well, what’s the point of anything? Sounds like some Scots are already defeated, and the fight hasn’t even begun. I will use ANY route to indy, attending demos, goig on marches, voting, whatever. All of it matters, as it raises the questions in the minds of the public, and makes it abundantly clear to the careerist urchins in Holyrood that people demand change. So, yes, numbers do matter. Demos do matter. They do get noticed.

Graf Midgehunter

So that’s that:

23.11.2022 from this day forth in history, now it’s official that we are a Colony of WM/England.

The Gauleiter is Nicola Sturgeon.

Stoker

Reproduced with thanks to Robert Louis at 11:07 am:

From Alex Salmond’s statement:

“The Scottish Government now has the responsibility to find a way forward. They have led the national movement down a complete blind alley to the Supreme Court which astonishingly has gone as far as rejecting Scotland’s right of self determination. That’s what happens when you go to the wrong court with the wrong question.”

“Today‘s decision must now be the spark that ignites a new popular movement like that of the Yes campaign of 2014. ALBA Party have led the way on parliamentary interventions in the UK Parliament and we call on others to join us. This must also be matched by a civic campaign of protest and action across Scotland and an Independence Convention to steer the campaign.”

Full statement: link to albaparty.org

Robert Louis

filofficer at 11am,

Yip. what she says at 1130am, is possibly of even greater importance than the ruling from the English court in London.

We shall see.

Bob Mack

Unfortunately the Supreme Court has stated that democracy is NOT our right. That us the legal position as it stands.

Now WE have to find a way of upsetting that particular applecart because the SNP can’t.

Claim of right involves the Scottish peoples emntitlement to choose a sovereign. Imagine we refused to accept Charles and demanded that choice. What a constitutional calamity that would bring about. The Monarch is responsible for giving Royal Assent to any and all Bills passed at both Houses as a legal requirement. Could we disrupt that?

Breeks

11:30 Please, please, please, be a resignation speech.

Desimond

Anyone seen Michael Gove…he must be ready to launch his all out assault on Holyrood powers soon…the games a-bogey, thanks for playing is what Westminster will say as they strip Holyrood down to a shell.

The friendly sassenach

Cheer up a bit. Its not all evil.
1) I’m convinced that a new referendum would be lost as the groundwork for a convinced Yes vote has not been done. Deliberately of course – see Wings passim. a second defeat really would be the end, ask the Québécois.
2) the ruling means the end of the illusion that Scotland would get its independence without fighting for it, and, yes, being prepared to make sacrifices in that fight. A split in the UK would destroy the delusions of grandeur in English politics (Brexit, seat at the UN, nuclear weapons etc etc). It would force us to accept that were a bit like Spain or Holland. that would be a great thing, which is why this sassenach supports you. But it would mean the total ruin of the political class, which is why you won’t get it this way. Progress lies in being clear about this.
3) Never fear, you will get your freedom when enough of you demand it in a loud enough voice. History tells you so. Britain had to give up India and Ireland because their people demanded it and fought for it.
Anyway – solidarity and best wishes from London (we didn’t vote for Brexit or the Tories either!)

Geoff Anderson

When a movement is divided by an incompetent egotistical figure such as Sturgeon it can never progress to it’s aim.
Who fractured the YES movement. Who divided society for a pet project due to her own insecurities. Who failed so badly in the campaign to build support for Independence. It was Sturgeon and she is already trying to turn this disaster into a recruitment drive for the SNP.
A Unified YES movement with a committed leader would have a hard fight to achieve Independence against the UK so what chance does a divided group with an incompetent Party, with an incompetent leader, have!

Yes I’m mad! However, more with our pretend party of Independence than London.

Craig

So, what is Pete Wishfart saying on twitter about this?

That we still need to believe, I hope people are tearing him a new one.

Hatuey

Robert Louis, I asked an honest question and got a dishonest answer. And it matters, not only to me but in objective terms.

If you can’t tell the difference between a demo arranged by Sturgeon for Sturgeon, and a real demo arranged by independence supporters, you’re right — we have nothing to discuss.

Sturgeon understands the difference. Would you like me to go through the history of her relations and interactions with the grassroots?

A demo that does anything to distract from her role and her failures is not in the interests of the independence movement. If there are demos to be had they should be to demand her resignation.

That’s step 1 — Sturgeon must go.

We can discuss step 2 and future demos later.

G-Man

“The decision of the Supreme Court today is the result of a bad gamble that hasn’t paid off. What should have happened was the Scottish Parliament should have passed the legislation for an independence referendum and forced the UK Government to be the ones that challenged it. Real Parliaments don’t ask for permission to implement their democratic mandate. Although the verdict is hardly a surprise it now begs the question of what is the democratic route for Scots to determine their own future?

Alex Salmond is on the money here. I won’t go into personal attacks here, and would ask others to consider not doing so either, it’s what we do now that counts, but ANYONE who has know Nicola Sturgeon well knows equally well she is not a political strategist.

Relying on the SNP’s leadership at this particular moment is like being led to the gallows by your own defence counsel whilst they whisper how good they were at saving your soul. .

Chas

Rab Davis

Did you read the thoughtful, accurate, honest post from ‘the friendly Sassenach’?

Do you agree with him or is he one of the English who have all to be detested?

Astonished

Graf Midgehunter says:
23 November, 2022 at 11:13 am
“So that’s that:

23.11.2022 from this day forth in history, now it’s official that we are a Colony of WM/England.

The Gauleiter is Nicola Sturgeon.”

You are dead right, Graf.

Only ‘Gauleiter’ is such a hard word to say, for me anyway(Schoolboy French). Could we not just call Sturgeon – Our Imperial Overseer ?

Other suggestions welcome.

Sturgeon most definitely does not deserve to recover from this.

Alisdair Mclean

I have been voting SNP since 1968. Now at 73 I know I will never see an independent Scotland. If I am still alive at the next general election I will vote ALBA. Unfortunately, there are too many thick voters who will stay with SNP, just as there was with Labour, and it will take ALBA a few elections to make headway.
As has been stated on innumerable times on this website Sturgeon has just been wasting everyones time.

Chris Downie

Predictable, but can we do a similar grassroots effort to what Martin Keating did and go to the Council of Europe and/or the UN? The former would surely be sympathetic, given the potential coup for the EU, while the latter’s charter on peoples’ right to self-determination is clear. Surely Scotland has a case here and if the Sturrell Mafia won’t do it, can’t the grassroots independence movement?

Andy Ellis

Rev. Stuart Campbell says:
23 November, 2022 at 11:05 am
“We can whine on twitter, or actually get to the demos tonight. a huge show of numbers will matter.”

Of course it bloody won’t.

It is a truth universally acknowledged that sections of the independence movement are prone to magical thinking. Over the next few years rather than do the hard work of actually holding and winning a plebiscitary election, many will assiduously tend their sense of grievance and continue to assert that there are short cuts and cunning plans to independence via petitions, demonstrations and non-conventional means avoiding the ballot box.

The task is not just to convince a majority to vote in favour of independence but that it can and should now be done via plebiscitary elections. You are right to say that the path ahead is not easy. It is also right to say that magical thinking on the part of some in the movement about how we do that isn’t going to help.

100%Yes

This arranging woman (NS) is already saying she’ll stay on a FM, she sold us down the river for 8yrs for her own gain.
Sturgeon has brought this to the SC, she now stating she fully agrees with its decision, People I fail to see why anyone on here believes for a single minute Sturgeon is going to do something outside the UK law she’s never going to go against whatever the UK laws says and this has been our problems from her becoming FM.
Please my fellow scots take head nothing will change until we get rid of a lawyer who’s only going to abide by the UK law regardless of what we want and for F*ck sake don’t put JC in her place we need someone who’ll defy not keep saying AYE.

We need a change 8yrs is enough she must go and go quickly.

PhilM

Well I for one am not going to get too disheartened by this decision today and neither should any clear-sighted Scot. Many of us now have an assured career path, making our living in the future, cleaning the retirement homes, second homes and holiday homes of our fellow UK citizens. Some day very soon I will rest my weary head at night in one of our newly opened trailer parks and thank the Supreme Court for their wisdom. I will not begrudge Nicola her media stardom and will watch with keen interest her new show “To Share or To Shaft”.
To be candid I have always believed that “everything is for the best in this best of possible worlds” and now the Supreme Court has told me this is true. So when I am down on my knees scrubbing that last bit of dirt from the skirting board that no-one will notice but I have to do it on pain of losing my job, I will fight back those tears caused by my aching joints, I will rehydrate with an XXL 100ml recyclable bottle of Iron Brew, and I will tell myself ‘I am not oppressed’. How can I be when unlike some I have four jobs, a roof over my head, and an internet connection. I will know for a fact, deep within my steadily disintegrating bones, that Scots have never had it so doubleplusgood and I won’t need a Tory Prime Minister like that Ian Blackford to tell me so!

sarah

I am enjoying emailing the FM and my SNP MSP/MPs telling them to resign. It is very satisfying!

Come on everyone – swamp their email inbox with the cry “RESIGN”!!!

Graf Midgehunter

From ALBA/Alex Salmond:
“This must also be matched by a civic campaign of protest and action across Scotland and an Independence Convention to steer the campaign.”
———–
Docile demos and walkabouts won’t cut the mustard.

Take a leaf out of the French “Yellow Vests” and make those demos hit the headlines around the world.

If you really want Independence you will have to fight for it. Ask the Irish and French what that means..

Stoker

A statement of waffle & tripe for breakfast is being delivered by Sturgeon at this moment in time, on this dull, damp and cold Wednesday morning. Like everything else, she’s had time to prepare for this and i bet it will still come down to ‘VOTE FOR ME’. GET YOUR CARROTS HERE, 2 FURRA POUND…

Please read the small print: We need to replace the stolen indyfund 😉 2 FURRA POUND! GET YER CARROTS HERE!

Johnny

The stasis and stagnation is palpable.

Christopher Pike

While I’m not 100% convinced on Scottish independence – I can admit that Kenny Macaskill is a great orator. He completed skewered John Nicholson on Politics Live. The SNP are completely limp-wristed whenever it comes to fighting for independence.

Breeks

Has she gone yet?

Dubh

Och well.

May as well settle down to another few decades of waiting for Alba and ISP to get up the numbers/seats etc.
Maybe wait for Salvo/Liberation to get enough signatures to be able to approach the UN for decolonisation assistance.

That process will take years too, but it’ll give us time to grow a fucking spine and engage in some persistent civil unrest so that WM admit we’re no longer governable and enter negotiations to dissolve the union.

If all our routes are barred – what else is there?

Breeks

I should have said, has she gone yet, or does she also intend to hang around and fuck up our Plebiscite General Election too?

scozzie

Remember when SNP said Scotland would get to decide the future of Scotland’s independence when the terms of Brexit were known…back in ye old times of 2017/18!!!
Any SNP supporters still flogging this SNP pretendy primary 6 level school project attempt at a strategy for independence needs to learn some lessons in “you’re getting a pure wedgey from the school bully…and they think yer da’s yer ma!!!!
Fuckers!

Daisy Walker

The SNP Loyalists will say, that thanks to this initiative, Scotland now has a clearly defined ‘colony’ status, praise be to Nicla…

Believe In Scotland/Business for Scotland will massage the message to some watered down rallying cry, akin to ‘down with this sort of thing’… Lesley Riddoch will tell us how well the Nordic countries are doing…. as always, making a welcome break from her, ‘Nicla’s a bonny fichter/both votes SNP’ schtick.

And all will be hearded towards carrot dangling ‘must vote SNP’ at the next election, for yet another Mandate, policy.

Meanwhile massive unemployment is coming our way thanks to Brexit and Austerity Max, and Scotland’s assets will be stolen at Warp Speed 20.

Any and all protests will be subject to Hate Crime Bill policing, and the GRR will make Scotland the prime destination for any and all raging personality pervert types looking for a new home and a state that supports a Perverts Charter.

And anyone voicing an alternative route will be called a devisive Albaist.

Winter’s arrived folks, but its only just started.

Braveheart

Reminds me of the Irish Home Rule bill which was continuously delayed, promises reneged on and so on. Sounds familiar? The English Govt has learned nothing from Ireland in the 1920s clearly. The Irish were forced to take their independence as they were never going to be free otherwise.

Chris Avery

Piss off Nicola.

solarflare

Usual shite from Sturgeon. Lots of long words to say “I’ll tell you later mebbes but in the meantime please give me a Section 30 order and we will launch another indy campaign”.

Absolutely irrevocably hopeless.

George Ferguson

Just listened to Sturgeon talk about clarity. Worth remembering that the FOI request by The Scotsman that subsequently resulted in the Scottish Information Commissioner upholding the release of the Scot Gov legal advice on a Referendum was resisted by the Scot Gov. Sturgeon has to go today!.

100%Yes

So we are now hearing from Sturgeon and she has nothing to give after the SC ruling.

I’ve heard all this before from Sturgeon.

Astonished

Alisdair Mclean at 11.28am

Might I suggest you actively do something to bring about Sturgeon’s richly deserved downfall. And join ALBA it’s a pound a month for pensioners.

link to albaparty.org

We’d be very grateful for the increase in membership. And we’re serious about getting independence. And I’m sure you’ve got years left in you.

“Breeks says:
23 November, 2022 at 11:18 am
11:30 Please, please, please, be a resignation speech.”

Thanks- On a dark, dark day you made me laugh.

Breeks

Dubh says:
23 November, 2022 at 11:42 am

Maybe wait for Salvo/Liberation to get enough signatures to be able to approach the UN for decolonisation assistance.

That process will take years too…

I don’t think so.

I think the finer details might take years to iron out, but the critical switch in sovereign recognition could come about much faster.

Say for example EU Nations through positivity, BRICS Nations celebrating the end of the Uk, the former Commonwealth Nations who have an axe to grind with the Union Jack, …between them that’s a powerful amount of International Recognition and it could swing quickly I think. Even the US might be more flexible than we expect. Then there’s Canada…

robertkknight

If Scotland can’t/won’t leave the UK, then I’ll just do so on my tod.

Given that Brexit makes the Common Travel Area the only available bolt-hole, Ireland here I come!

PS Dear Sturgeon, just *uck off will you!

Christopher Pike

Independence will never happen so long as the majority of the movement keep their faith in Nicola Sturgeon – which remains the case.

Lesley Riddoch
Gordon Ross (although he flip-flops and plays both sides)
Wee Ginger Dug
The National
The SNP
The Greens
Broadcasting Scotland

All of them remain faithful to Nicola Sturgeon.

Alex

It’s ok. The SNP voters will lap this up. Nicola is leading us to the promised land. Don’t worry!
She couldn’t sort a piss up in a brewery.

It’s time for the SNP to be held to account for their failures. As much as the occasional success they have, their failures are utterly reprehensible. And they always cost us (the taxpayers). Not one of them will lose their jobs because Nicola needs loyalty. If there is any questions she will forget about it, wasn’t aware and takes the matter seriously while it’s in the news. Drugs deaths? Forgotten about. Until they are back in the news for being highest in Europe for example. Buck stops with her but it’s gotten worse under her watch.

Time to call Nicola out on her failures to drive the SNP to change. Without that nothing is going to happen. She will ask for mandate after mandate. Getting it. Thinking she’s amazing. Any criticism of SG is because you’re against Indy. Treat this like a failed government is going to being about more change than any “demos / protests / petitions etc.”. The Westminster Gov couldn’t give one fuck if people are out in the streets going “this is unfair”. They’ll just see it’s barely reported because no one really cares. March all you want. It’ll change nothing.

David Hannah

Sturgeon the Indy Swindler. The destoyer of Independence. The destroyer of women’s rights. The destroyer of the legal system in Scotland. She can’t deliver referendums.

Stranded on an island with no ferry in sight. Why not pass the time by legally flashing your penis in the female only toilets. She can’t deliver Gender Self ID now. She’s sold Scotland’s Sovereignty down the river. Like ferries.

Nicola’s gone with the wind she flogged to the Swedish State – for a quick buck and a selfie. And quite frankly, my dear, she doesn’t give a damn.

The destroyer of the public sector in Scotland. Rail strikes, nurses strikes people starving under Glasgow Central train station. If I was a tourist that just rocked up in Glasgow, I’d get back on the train and turn around. The Tartan Tory SNP. Nationalisation without the benefits. They want to demolish the city centre shopping complexes.

The green tail wagging the SNP dog – not anymore. Supreme court says our Sovereignty is worthless, it requires permission of Tories.

A failed lawyer, failing Scotland. The scum of the earth Nicola Sturgeon.

crisiscult

Any negatives about today’s developments Rev? 😀

Seriously though, today may have made many people angry at the SNPs strategic errors but let’s not forget who the biggest enemy is and the battle goes on with a huge added dose of hatred of the UK having finally publicised its view that we are a colony. There is a kind of feeling in Scotland that we were somehow going to be one of the very rare instances in world history of a nation becoming independent with a handshake. If anyone feels hopeless because that hasn’t happened, a fight for self-determination wasn’t their thing and they should stick to flower pressing.

mike cassidy

The Tories know they don’t need a single vote in Scotland

Never mind a single MP

To rule at Westminster

Labour are gradually realising the same thing

The only circumstance in which Scotland’s votes could count would be if the SNP held the balance of power after a UK GE

And if the Labour leader of the day was willing to risk an independence referendum as a gamble worth taking to secure the top job

That’s two big ifs

Cos I’m no longer inclined to presume the SNP would demand a referendum as the price for support

And I never thought I would say that

Robert Louis

Sturgeon’s statement; Utter, utter, utter, utter, utter sh*te.

She says the SNP NEC will convene in the new year to dicuss it. Why not this week??? Why the lack of urgency?

She then says she will use the next UK election as a defacto vote on independence. Why not call a Scottish election by dissolving her own government?? Why on earth wait until 2024?

And then she has the same old sh*te she has peddled for the last eight years about the indy movement having work to do, to persuade people about independence. What’s the point if their is no democratic path to delivering it??

She is as RevSTU has pointed out, a fraud, an utter, utter fraud. Yet another indy carrot – election 2024.

She has had eight years to plan for a position such as this, yet when she spoke, she indicated she would need time to consider this? Why???? For heavens sake, it was her that took the case to the sdupreme court, so where’s the gameplan? Where is the urgency???

And for heavens sake, why did she not just cote the claim of right and the Scottish consitutional settlement?

She says she still hopes Westminster will realise the mandate the Scottish government has. Is she really so freaking well naive? Westminster doesn’t give a f*** about her mandate or indeed what she says.

Sturgeon needs booted out of office. She is an utter fraud. Stringing the gullible along yet again.

An absolute 100% gold plated ‘tractor’, if ever there was one.

David Hannah

The SNP ‘I feel British’ advent Callander. Opening a door kills an old lady of hypothermia.

Sturgeon says we’re subjects of King Charles. She had the biggest smile on the face I’ve ever seen today. She’s just fling an Iron in the face of Scotland today. The tin pot Iron lady – Nicola Thatcher, the Indy snatcher.

Tam Norrie

Sturgeon just cannae help hersel. She just luuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuvvs boxes. She has given us the “baby box” and has finished it off with the “get back in yer box”. Ach well at least there’s dominoes on at the club the night.

Merganser

If people had known the identities of all those involved in the Salmond affair, Sturgeon would not now be running the show and real independence seekers would have found a way forward.

This travesty of secrecy is crippling Scotland’ ability to achieve its destiny.

Vivian O’Blivion

Nae recall of MPs.
Nae Constitutional Convention.
Nae dissolution of Holyrood.
Mair prevarication.
Mair bloviating.
Mair lovely, crunchy carrots.

Skip_NC

Breeks, the US nuclear weapons on the Clyde might give them pause in supporting Scottish independence.

Luxybob

Thats an embarrassing Politics live. SNP squirming and all lost at sea. Has everyone forgotten about the lies given just before the referendum. Feels like these are still being thrown back in our faces.

Alisdair Mclean

To Astonished at 11:54

Thanks for the information but I already have joined.
Unfortunately I can’t be active but I do spread the message on as many vlog sites as possible.

Alibi

I see NS is now saying it will be a UK general election that is used as a plebiscite. That is crazy. A Scottish election allows 16 & 17 year olds to vote, and also EU citizens living in Scotland. Excluding them, a greatly pro-indy demographic, looks like trying to minimise the chance of success.

As an SNP member, I despair at her naivete. She is a decent colonial administrator but an inspiring leader of the indy movement, sadly, she is not.

Effijy

It went exactly as I thought.

Westminster has neither fear or respect for this colony of Scotland
How I wish we had the balls of the Irish or guile of Gandhi to take on
the most corrupt government in Europe.

If Ukraine has any spare weapons left after expelling the Russian version of the Tory party
can we have them.

They confirm I’m a second class citizen whose sovereign nation has no meaningful power they don’t control.

For 70 years we have rejected the Tory Party and for almost the same consecutive period the gap between their rich backers and the working classes has grown.

Are we looking forward to 100 years not out?

scozzie

I should correct my post I wasn’t meaning their strategy for independence was brexit – that ship has long sailed…was just pointing out their so called strategy was like nailing jelly to a wall. Too many wines consumed to describe myself properly!!
Let’s just say Laurel and hardy have more chance pushing a piano upstairs than SNP have achieving independence.

gregor

BBC (23/11/2022): Live: Tricky questions about how a de facto referendum would work:

“…she knows she too is going to face a lot of questions in the coming days about her strategy going forward.

So Ms Sturgeon has attempted to push some of those questions down the road a bit by announcing a special conference of the SNP to study them…

That means every time she’s asked how some element of her strategy would work in practice, she can say “well we’ll be debating that in the new year”…”:

link to archive.ph

Johnny

gregor @ 12:17pm:

Indeed that will be the argument made.

However, that’s a great laugh too since everyone knows she doesn’t listen to anyone else so there will be no “debate”.

Confused

are we a “c0l0ny” now, officially?

– asking for a friend.

Now that’s cleared up, you know what to do.

Mac

From the second Sturgeon took over the leadership she has systematically and methodically undermined the independence movement.

She attacked and neutered the internal democracy of the SNP

She attacked and corrupted the process by which new MPs and MSPs are selected ensuring the absolute worst candidates were selected to the point now the party is not fit for purpose.

Domestically she adopted a highly divisive and insane woke agenda that no one wanted other than her, slowly turning Scotland and the SNP into a living woke hellscape. Policies which are like slow acting poison pills in the body politic.

She attacked all the old guard SNP’ers, marginalizing and disempowering them.

She attacked and smeared the one politician the UK government truly feared, Alex Salmond.

She did so using the most foul and disgusting means I have ever seen in modern politics. A truly vile act.

She betrayed not just her mentor, the man who trusted her, but she betrayed every one of us in that moment.

And she did so when she should have been capitalizing on the unbelievably good cards dealt to her in BREXIT and the worst tory government I have ever seen by a huge margin.

Instead of doing what Alex Salmond would have done in the circumstances, i.e. exploited it all the maximum, she ‘misplayed’ every step, deliberately, consistently and perfectly, proving that while she may well be strategically useless, the people running her are certainly not.

The greatest Betrayer in 315 years. By far. She has betrayed everything and everybody she ever said she stood for. She is a walking lie.

Christopher Pike

For the past 2/3 years the self-proclaimed expert on constitutional and international law – Gordon Ross, has been telling your movement that the Supreme Court couldn’t possibly rule against Scots Law or the ‘sovereignty’ of the Scottish people.

Today, he has the uneducated arrogance to suggest that the Supreme Court has misinterpreted the right to self-determination. It is laughable to suggest that a driving instructor has more understanding of international law than the judges sitting on the Supreme Court. Why do so many of you take the advice of charlatans and rank amateurs over that of genuine experts? Don’t you realise that this does nothing to further the cause of independence? Don’t you realise that it makes your movement look amateurish?

Vivian O’Blivion

Strategy for implementation of the Plebiscite is to be formulated at a leisurely convened NEC.
No Constitutional Convention as (rashly) promised (with no time scale) on 31st January 2021.
There are cracks in the ranks at Westminster.
Cracks are appearing at Holyrood.
The only forum acceptable to the pathologically Stalinesque clique around Sturgeon is the gerrymandered NEC.

Paul B

No legal way into the UK, and no legal way out of it.

I no longer know if I’m more embarrassed to say I’m Scottish or British.

Right now, I prefer neither.

Liz

I will not be attending any ‘demos’ except at either Holyrood or Bute House to demand Sturgeons resignation

Ian McLean

I know it’s futile but I’m going to the rally in Inverurie that Alex is speaking at today. At least it will be a change to hear some positivity.

Breeks

Alibi says:
23 November, 2022 at 12:14 pm
I see NS is now saying it will be a UK general election that is used as a plebiscite. That is crazy…

No, it’s not crazy, because the threshold for victory is winning 30 Westminster Seats on a purely Independence ticket.

What is crazy is a Plebiscite UK General Election having stated 50% share of the vote is the victory line. That is crazy. That’s why Sturgeon shouldn’t be let in the building.

A plebiscite GE also requires a simple binary issue on the ticket; a vote for me is a vote for Independence.

If it doesn’t say that, if it’s a full manifesto for government, you compromise the explicit clarity of a binary vote for Independence. Thus an Independence Plebiscite Election should be fought by a single YES Candidate in every constituency and no other Indy Candidates to split the vote or dilute the expression.

Do you see the SNP swelling enough hubris to do that? Neither do I. Sturgeon is already fucking up the Plebiscite option because she’s criminally inept and hasn’t a clue what she’s doing.

Impeachment, impeachment, impeachment…. You know it makes sense.

Let SALVO and ALBA manage any plebiscite GE, and run the show under a YES banner.

But sign up for Liberation dot org before you do anything else.

Oh aye, and henceforth EVERY election, UK or Scottish is a plebiscite on Indy.

Brian Doonthetoon

During her speech, the FM said (and I possibly paraphrase) that she has always had a desire for independence and, after today’s court decision, that desire is even stronger.

If that were true, then during her speech, she would have announced that she was resigning as FM, ultimately to force a Holyrood election with a far more favourable pro-indy electorate, as others have pointed out.

The fact that she didn’t speaks volumes about her priorities – and independence is probably at the bottom of that list of priorities.

PacMan

An excellent decision for Nicola Sturgeon.

She’s dodged a referendum and she’ll be guaranteed to be in charge after the next Westminster and Holyrood elections so she can count down the time until her retirement and cash in her cushy pension.

The same goes to all her little minions who will continue to maintain their cushy lifestyle as the gravy train keeps rolling on.

sarah

@ Mac “she is a walking lie”.

Correct. I enjoyed emailing her [and then Maree Todd and Ian Blackford] to tell her she must resign immediately due to having got us into this mess.

It must be made personal – they need to feel the disgust and fury. Please, everyone, email the criminal fools and then let us know. It needs to be a mass protest.

John Main

I am surprised that I was able to predict the SC decision when less than one third of those who bothered to vote got it right.

So I will stick my neck out and make another prediction.

All calls for NS to resign will fall on deaf ears until her successor is known and widely accepted within the Indy movement and the SNP.

That being the case, some serious analysis of the available, obvious and even wildcard candidates is needed.

Material for plenty of posts from Rev Stu going forwards.

It seems plain enough to me that the Indy movement is crying out for a serious, competent, eloquent, persuasive and voteworthy leader.

Big Jock

Depressing as it is. In all likelihood. Nothing will happen until the next GE. We are all going to have to hold our noses and vote SNP when that comes. On the caveat that they set out a clear mandate process before the GE.

Personally for me it would be a majority of seats, But Sturgeon wants to go down the 50% threshold. The only way that will work is making sure everyone is clear on this. If we get 50% with a mixture of Greens and SNP . Westminster will spin this as a failure.

The question is. Do the Greens stand down entirely, at the risk of losing percentage or two of people who may not vote SNP.

Christopher Pike

Breeks says:
23 November, 2022 at 12:33 pm

Alibi says:
23 November, 2022 at 12:14 pm
I see NS is now saying it will be a UK general election that is used as a plebiscite. That is crazy…

No, it’s not crazy, because the threshold for victory is winning 30 Westminster Seats on a purely Independence ticket.

What is crazy is a Plebiscite UK General Election having stated 50% share of the vote is the victory line. That is crazy. That’s why Sturgeon shouldn’t be let in the building.

———

There is no way you can declare Scotland independent unless you gain the support of the majority of the Scottish electorate.

Robert Louis

And folk need to realise that when their is so much justified hatred for a supposedly pro indy FM, then there is something seriously wrong.

But nothing will happen, whilst she is in power. Obfuscate, delay, procrastinate, for ever and ever, until she and her husband retire to their rather large tax-payer funded pensions.

Sturgeon clearly does not care one jot about independence or Scottish democracy. Her speech was lightweight. Hardly the words or fury of a leader given the world’s stage to protest at colonial rule of Scotland.

Angry at enforced English colonial rule, even angrier at Sturgeon. The SNP, the do nothing party.

Breeks

Incidentally, the adjudication does NOT mean Scotland is a colony.

Scotland is a Nation and the people of Scotland are sovereign.

What the adjudication means is that Holyrood is “owned” by Westminster not Scotland, and is just a colonial office administering Westminster rule in open defiance of Scotland’s sovereign people.

Holyrood is Trojan Horse attempting to usurp sovereignty from Scotland’s people. It is nothing more than that, and the office of First Minister should be regarded as Gauleiter.

Tinto Chiel

“Nicola Sturgeon has single-handedly undone generations of work by people who spent their whole lives bringing the Scottish National Party to the position that she’s so abysmally squandered. It’s not just the last eight years she’s wasted, but the eight decades before them.”

So true: the dreams of millions of committed Scots over the years have been subverted by this utter fraud. She makes Benedict Arnold’s behaviour seem just slightly misguided.

I expected fudge from the pretendy SC today but they obviously know that a dismissive and abrupt No will suffer no comeback from the Scottish gauleiter and her spineless coterie.

Get set for some more mouldy carrots from The Great Helmswoman. How much longer can her clapping seals and nodding donkeys fail to see the bloody obvious?

McDuff

The sturgeon doesn`t care about Scotland or its people and never has , she was always a very strange and almost bitter individual.
So Scotland can`t hold a referendum without the “UK`s” permission but of course it is actually England saying this and as usual it hides behind the uk badge.
At the end of the day the blame equally lies behind the gutless worthless MP/MSPs the latter who should have walked out of Westminster or disrupted it so much that normal business would have been made almost impossible.

Confused

Amazingly, if Nikki was an enemy agent (she isn’t of course!) – she would have done -exactly- as she did do from 2016; getting diverted, driving with the handbrake on, ruthlessly seeing off a rival intent on indy … which is all just an amazing coincidence.

I am a “coincidence theorist” myself.

Leslie Evans was NOT her “handler”.

and she never had lesbian affairs with

REDACTED

BUT – there is a bonus dvd special feature – the second part of the trap closes.

the PLEBESCITE idea looks like a trap to me and a pretty obvious one – for a start the WINNING LINE WILL BE MOVED to some ridiculous point, then what happens :

– if you lose, the unionists will accept it and say “you’ve had your indyref and it is FINAL”

– if you “win” they will turn round and tell you it wasn’t legal and refuse to recognise it

LOSE-LOSE

no wonder some people are banging this drum

Which is not to say an indyref under the same conditions as last time is a solution, for it’s another trap :

– a rigged franchise the UN would not tolerate for a banana republic
– slack controls; since “we don’t rig elections” why check for rigging
– a postal vote wide open to manipulation

And even if you did “win” under a Section 30 referendum, do you think the English would honour it??? They would stonewall you, say it was advisory and mumble something about federalism. People who have “done the reading” will know this.

Breeks

Christopher Pike says:
23 November, 2022 at 12:42 pm

There is no way you can declare Scotland independent unless you gain the support of the majority of the Scottish electorate.

Not true. 30 seats in Westminster is a democratic victory under Westminster’s First Past the Post system. It isn’t “a” legal threshold for Indy, it is “the” legal threshold for victory. It just needs the explicit binary mandate that a vote for “x” is a vote for Independence.

Furthermore, if Scotland’s Sovereign integrity and Claim of Right has been violated by colonial intervention or subjugation, (and I cite Brexit), then the Treaty of Union is breached, the Treaty is is broken and no longer exists as a distinction in law, irrespective of any electoral mandate or democratic opinion.

So there’s two ways to Independence already…

Luigi

The surprising speed and decisiveness of the UK SC ruling this morning indicates that the UK establishment feels that it has nothing to fear from the current Scottish government or SNP leadership. Diddly-squat. Nada. No fear, no respect. What a damning indictment.

Jordanhill

Absolutely the result our precious Nicola wanted. No interest in an Independent Scotland but she can continue to blame others for the Scottish people being shackled to the Union. Lots of vacuous rhetoric from her again but my suspicion is she’s offsky soon to some Woke connected sinecure a long way from Dreghorn. She is a disgrace as is virtually every other SNP representative in Holyrood & Westminster.

The friendly sassenach

Merganser says:
If people had known the identities of all those involved in the Salmond affair, Sturgeon would not now be running the show and real independence seekers would have found a way forward.
this travesty of secrecy is crippling Scotland’ ability to achieve its destiny.

— this is probably right. And I think you will not get rid of Sturgeon until the truth about that is out

gregor

@Johnny

Look on the bright side re. what Scotland has learned:

No transparency (strategic plan ?).
No debate.
No progress.

Graf Midgehunter

With us mortals so confused at the moment, it looks like we’ll all be sitting on the edge of our seats until WGD has explained the plan behind the pure genius of Saint Nicola.. 🙂

Ebok

Big Jock says:

‘We are all going to have to hold our noses and vote SNP’

Hahahahahaha

Ottomanboi

A constitutional crisis handed on a plate.
If you want it, you must take it.
No more lawyers’ tricks.
This system deserves cremation.
Goodbye Yookaye!

Bob Mack

Vote SNP? For what exactly?

Karen

A shit lawyer (and probably M15) calls it wrong, she must resign. SNP MSPs must defect to Alba, as must SNP members. MPs must walk out of Westmibster and form a Constitutional Convention. MSPs must use planning and health and safety law to thwart Westminster (do those pylons look unsafe to you? Are the pipelines that pass through Aberdeenshire not due an upgrade?). And everyone must cancel their TV license if they haven’t already. For a start.

Karen

A shit lawyer (and probably M15) calls it wrong, she must resign. SNP MSPs must defect to Alba, as must SNP members. MPs must walk out of Westminster and form a Constitutional Convention. MSPs must use planning and health and safety law to thwart Westminster (do those pylons look unsafe to you? Are the pipelines that pass through Aberdeenshire not due an upgrade?). And everyone must cancel their TV license if they haven’t already. For a start.

Nevermore

Why can the SNP not seek to dissolve the Scottish Parliament and have a new election- on the plebiscite question – early in the spring. Relatively easy to keep/ enhance the momentum, if nothing else. Serious question.

Shug

Think it is time to ‘out’ the conspirators and show the country what wee shits they all are

Nothing like finding a piece of the jigsaw

Bob Mack

@Graf Midgehunter,

He has done so already. Injustice,lack of democracy , SNP branches holding meetings about it etc etc etc.

No solutions though

Geoff Anderson

So we have the Sturgeon TransCult Nicophants rubber stamping a vote SNP at the next GE for Independence. An election which will exclude all the 16 and 17 year old voters who lean at least 70% towards Independence. The 30% Labour voters who favour Independence will still vote Labour and be counted as a vote for the Union. Those in the SSP, Alba, SSP etc will not have their view recorded unless the blackmail of vote SNP is followed. What a brilliant plan.

A real Independence leader would have collapsed Holyrood NOW and maximised the chances of a successful vote – It’s almost as if she wants to be defeated and remain the regional ruler.
After the GE narrow defeat for Indy it will be Vote SNP for Holyrood. If she loses seats in the constituencies the divisor in the D’Hondt system goes down so she picks up regional seats.

Murrell Enterprises will continue to grow the business.

Stoker

I would encourage all those members of the SNP who are feeling let down by Sturgeon to close your memberships in protest and sign up to join Alba and help put a real indy party on the map.

If you stay with the SNP, believing there’s going to be “change” then you’re as guilty as Sturgeon for destroying 8+ years of Scotland’s history pretending change is coming.

Particularly those politicians within the SNP who have skirted on the fringes of ‘should i stay or should i go to Alba?’ Time to cross the floor and nail one’s colours to the mast. Or forever haud yer wheesht!

Your continued membership of the SNP is your seal of approval.

“Seal of approval: indication that something is accepted or regarded favourably.”

Andy Ellis

@Big Jock 12.40pm

If we get 50% with a mixture of Greens and SNP . Westminster will spin this as a failure.
The question is. Do the Greens stand down entirely, at the risk of losing percentage or two of people who may not vote SNP.

If there is to be a plebiscitary election it’s up to the movement to dictate terms. Individual parties don’t own such a vote or get to dictate which votes count and which don’t, any more than Westminster gets to decide if it accepts the results.

Now that the British nationalists have demonstrated that they are not negotiating in good faith and will not accept (repeated) democratic mandates for the Scottish Parliament to hold a referendum, then it is a matter for the Scottish people to decide. If we are timorous enough to accept being told we are not “allowed” a referendum, or that the results of plebiscitary elections will not be deemed legitimate, then we don’t deserve to be independent. What sort of nationalists would that make us?

It doesn’t matter whether plebiscitary elections are for Westminster or Holyrood, whether we have a unified pro independence slate or multiple parties, or even if they stand on one issue or a full policy platform. All that is required is for ALL pro independence parties to affirm before polling that in the event their combined vote is 50% + 1 then Scotland is de facto independent. No ifs, no buts: game over for the union.

We don’t need any follow up referendum or convention, the die will have been cast. All that is required then is fresh elections to the first independent parliament and detailed separation negotiations with rump UK.

Sturgeon had a chance to show us her quality an hour ago by announcing immediate Holyrood elections. It’s a pity that in this 32nd anniversary of Thatcher’s fall, the SNP are too gutless to do the same to Sturgeon as the Tories did to the Leaderene.

PacMan

Graf Midgehunter says: 23 November, 2022 at 12:57 pm

With us mortals so confused at the moment, it looks like we’ll all be sitting on the edge of our seats until WGD has explained the plan behind the pure genius of Saint Nicola.. ?

The spinning has already started with an excerpt from his latest blog entry:

The First Minister announced today that democracy cannot be denied. The people of Scotland must have their say in a legal and democratic vote on the future of their country. Therefore the next election in Scotland will become a de facto referendum on independence. Labour and the Tories must now explain themselves to the people of Scotland, they must explain their lies about the nature of a union which we now know is not voluntary at all. They must explain what the democratic route is for the people of Scotland to secure another referendum now that we know it is not voting for a Scottish Parliament committed to delivering one. During PMQs in the Commons today, the unelected Prime Minister repeatedly refused to answer that question.

The First Minister also announced a special conference of the SNP and discussions with the Greens in order to determine the question to be put to the voters of Scotland at that de facto referendum and a plan of action once a Yes majority is secured. Scotland will have its say, but we have work to do between now and then to build that secure Yes majority and to hold the democracy deniers of Anglo-British nationalism to account. That will continue to be the sole focus of this blog until that Yes vote is secured.

Just one thing about WGD. I can’t seem to get a direct link to his site through DuckDuckGo search results but instead have to go through the link to the twitter account that the search result uses. I wonder why that is 😉

Mac

I knew it!

On the UK Supreme Court website, it says:

Can the UKSC overrule the UK Parliament?
No. Unlike some Supreme Courts in other parts of the world, the UK Supreme Court does not have the power to ‘strike down’ legislation passed by the UK Parliament. It is the Court’s role to interpret the law and develop it where necessary, rather than formulate public policy.

Can the UKSC overrule Devolved Parliaments and Assemblies in other parts of the UK?
The UKSC can hear ‘devolution issues’, which include questions about whether a Bill or Act of Parliament, or any provision of a Bill or Act of Parliament, is within the legislative competence of the Scottish Parliament…

link to supremecourt.uk

100%Yes

The FM has never been bothered to attend an AUOB march, but yet her job is now on the line and I feel sure she’ll be willing to attend one of these rally’s tonight. Lesley Riddoch and Sturgeonites endorsement of Sturgeon in every regard is the reason we find ourselves in the cul-de-sac on Independence. When has Sturgeon ever been democratic in her approach when it comes to the SNP and we heard her today saying she’ll hold a conference next year for her and her party to talk a way forward for Scotland, don’t make me laugh.

She was asked about working with other parties and straight away avoided the question entirely, this woman hasn’t changed her spots and doesn’t know how to move forward, so for Scotland nothing is going to change until we change the leader running the country. Sturgeon did look rattled, but what would you expect, she asked the opposition (SC) to make a judgement because she couldn’t make the judgement herself, she should have known what the result was going to be, after all the rest of us did.

She said Indepeendence isn’t about one person and yet here is me thinking thats all its ever been since she been leader of the SNP, Scotland is worse of under Sturgeon.

James Che

If the official Scottish parliament closed its doors in 1707,
There has been no Scottish parliament in the treaty of union for over three hundred years.

WAKE UP YOU AND I ( SCOTLAND ) CANNOT BE IN A TREATY OF UNION

We cannot hold the position of having an extinguished, cancelled, voided, deleted 1707 Scottish parliament in 1707.

And a Existing member of the Scotland side of a treaty of union in Westminster.

Stuart MacKay

Graf Midgehunter @12:57

>it looks like we’ll all be sitting on the edge of our seats until WGD has explained the plan behind the pure genius of Saint Nicola.

Ask and ye shall receive, link to archive.ph

I bet it took quite a bit of mental gymnastics but WGD blames it on the Tories and now there must be a referendum because everything else is unthinkable. I guess he gets extra points for managing to stay on message.

So it’s definitely one step back for Saint Nicola. Now that the gold standard has been removed it is now her fervent belief that the gold standard must be allowed so democracy in Scotland can be restored.

Time to buy futures in carrots. Plenty are going to be needed.

stuart mctavish

Any explanations as to why SNP went in to Westminster today?

Breeks

Get signed up to Liberation dot Scot.

You want forward momentum? Then help liberation dot Scot take the initiative.

link to liberation.scot

Don’t leave any gaps in your username.

Now it is more important than ever.

Andy Ellis

@Breeks 12.52 pm

Not true. 30 seats in Westminster is a democratic victory under Westminster’s First Past the Post system. It isn’t “a” legal threshold for Indy, it is “the” legal threshold for victory. It just needs the explicit binary mandate that a vote for “x” is a vote for Independence.

It is true. The number of seats is irrelevant unless it is backed up by a clear majority voting in favour in response to a clear question. It doesn’t matter whether the question is in a binary referendum or a plebiscitary election.

International recognition will not come about if there is a contested referendum or plebiscitary vote that doesn’t demonstrate a clear majority in favour. There are no short cuts, no cunning plans and no non-electoral legal silver bullets that lead to independence based on self appointed conventions or assemblies or petitions to courts. Those are all fanciful magical thinking lacking in any appreciable support, still less commanding a majority.

The movement needs to use the democratic outrage represented by the contention that our self determination is in the gift of Westminster, and can be denied “sine die”, as a spring board for ensuring a majority in plebiscitary elections which takes its independence rather than asks for permission.

JGedd

Dubh @ 11.54am

You have greater faith in international recognition of Scotland’s independence than I can summon. I have a dark and sneaking suspicion about how far the tendrils of the dark network that NS so avidly wishes to belong to, will operate against the independence of a country that might actually wish to behave independently in international affairs. She has done everything to show her loyalty to them by completely subverting the former policies of the SNP.

The summary dismissal of Craig Murray’s well-argued case before the European Court gives me cause for disquiet. It makes me wonder about the much touted international recognition Scotland might receive. There seems to be a strong current flowing against the idea of the nation state in the present day. It isn’t just the GR legislation which can split the independence movement. There are signs of other pressures beginning to build that could portend trouble for the independence movement.

The former happy independence movement of pre 2014 willing to put aside any differences about future policy areas until after hoped-for independence seems to have been trustingly optimistic now. Other minds were listening to the idea that after independence there might be a realignment of political parties and new politics might emerge – and they decided that was not going to happen. That faction took over the SNP, determined that the SNP was to be a different entity altogether, so we have Sturgeon and her clique in ruthless charge. (And could I mention Angus Robertson? His foreign policy ambitions were obvious even then.)

PacMan

On this post, I have made the statement that the Supreme court ruling has been good for Sturgeon as she will be able to hold onto the reigns of power at Holyrood until her retirement.

In previous post, I have made the argument along with others that he has ditched independence in favour of a progressive agenda in order for her to move on to a cushy job at the UN or some progressive university in America.

It could well be that with all these international conferences that Nicola Sturgeon has went to, it has been very lonely for her and these opportunities to network has not materialised.

While Sturgeon has pursed a progressive agenda, she has got nowhere with the main goal that she got elected for as a politician and it is hard for her to spin that away.

There is also the fact that throughout the Alex Salmond affair she has shown how toxic she is as an individual and how she is unable to deal with pressure when she is actually scrutinised.

Maybe we have put too much credence in her actual abilities and thinking she can achieve more than she is actually capable of. Maybe she is starting to waken up to that herself?

All hypothesis on my part but it will be fun seeing her squirming when people start to realise how much of a loser she is.

Stoker

sarah says on 23 November 2022 at 12:37 pm:

“I enjoyed emailing her [and then Maree Todd and Ian Blackford] to tell her she must resign immediately due to having got us into this mess. It must be made personal – they need to feel the disgust and fury. Please, everyone, email the criminal fools and then let us know. It needs to be a mass protest.”

Hear! Hear!

I’d go one further and encourage everyone to open up social media accounts and then bombard her accounts with your disapprovals. But keep it civil(ish) and within the law. Don’t let these self-servers get away with distancing themselves from the international embarrassment they have caused. In the name of self-interests, they sold-out Scotland and that must never be forgiven or forgotten. Start holding their feet to the fire. Or as they say these days, make them own their own shit.

James Che

The Devolved Parliament is not the Scottish parliament.of 1707, that closed.
And all that is within the devolved government are under english legislation, including the snp.

To be in the UK parliament, aka the British parliament and hence in the treaty of union the 1707 parliament would have to reconvene.

Lorna Campbell

Excellent piece, Rev. Says it all. No other way that ruling could have gone. That is why it was a very bad move. I’m sorry to say it but I don’t believe that Alec Salmond has it either because legal recognition hinges largely on either legality or sheer pragmatism (as in the former Yugoslavia where violence threatened the whole of the world). I very much doubt that Scotland would have met those criteria.

The addition about international law is seriously flawed, and that court has no jurisdiction in international law. Yes, force England as the UK or rUK to challenge in court, but make it the international court. No more referendums of any kind. UDI alongside a case before the UN/International Court and a ratifying referendum afterwards. The International Court case must be based on consistent and deliberate breaching of the Treaty by one party to that agreement, England/England as the UK.

The SC of the UK has interpreted the Acts of Union to be the superior legislation which is not lawful. The Acts cannot supersede the Treaty because the Acts are grounded in domestic law which has no jurisdiction in international law, which governs the Treaty. This is the only way we are getting out from under without recourse to arms, and who wants that? This one-sided Anglo-centred debate has to be challenged at its core – and that is the Treaty. First, though, we have to declare a UDI based on years of government of the party of independence, and numerous mandates to achieve independence. If we meekly accept this ruling, we deserve to be slaves.

James Che

Forget NS…forget the SC ruling….forget the falsified state of union between Scotlands old 1707 parliament and Englands EXISTING parliament today.

The treaty of union was halted when the 1707 Scottish parliament was halted, extinguished.

The rest is also history, the Scottish people were never asked if they want to join the treaty of union.

Both these statements are on the UK parliament Site,
I hope you made a copy.

C Mackay

A tragedy. Nothing works, roads railways education, we’ve the worst health in Europe with zero population growth. We have an unaccountable dictatorship with a premier who can say anything and get away with it. How are we going to get the people to come forward to clear up this shambles

Alf Baird

crisiscult @ 12:01 pm

“the UK having finally publicised its view that we are a colony”

Aye, the colonial penny surely had to drop eventually, tho plenty o signposts ower three centuries an mair o Scots fowk bein doun-hauden an mony treaty violations tae, added to the fact the UN describes independence as ‘decolonization’:

link to yoursforscotlandcom.wordpress.com

David Hannah

Just listened to Alistair Jack, the Tories heavyweight figure in Scotland refer to his previous answer. By Sturgeon’s own admission Jack doesn’t recognise list MSPs as part of a mandate which Nicola described as “gaming the system”.

scunner

I see the Beeb have added a “have your say” to the headline article.

Basically a binfire of bullshit.

“Hijacked the flag”
“want to leave but be ruled by Brussels”
“divisive spewing out hatred”
“Evil Nationalists hate the English”

Basically Yoon Bingo.

Exactly what you’d expect by opening up a topic to the 90% who don’t live here

Fairliered

The is zero chance that Sturgeon will dissolve The Scottish Parliament until her Gender Bender Act has been enacted.

Kevin Evans

That’s me finished with loaning my vote to the SNP for indy.

Tinto Chiel

@JGedd: globalism seems the best game in town for political sub-Clinton wannabees like Nikla and of course, globalism wishes to weaken national sovereignty for obvious reasons.

We now know the FM has no genuine interest in Scottish independence and the activation of our sovereignty. Her behaviour is understandable, however, if you see her as having other ambitions and motivations. Of course, another explanation is that she has been nobbled in some way.

Any way you cut it, there will be no improvement in our fortunes until she is gone.

Breeks

Damn it to Hell. I can’t get to Edinburgh.

All my electrics are fked on the motor. I’ve no headlights indicators or wipers. Main beam is ok if I hold it. Gotta be a fuse right? Except I’ve been through all the fuses and they’re all ok. WTF???

Anyway, SALVO is meeting at the ponds in front of the Holyrood parish Council building from 2:45pm.

That’s the only meeting I’d be wanted to go to today; that and ALBA.

Gonna go through the fuses again, but checked both lots. Console and under the seat. Bloody hell. What a bad day this is.

robertkknight

Cue Westminster’s next wheeze…

Offer a S30 with so many strings that not even Sturgeon’s pro-Devo/anti-Indy SNP has the stomach to accept it, and it’s game, set, match Westminster?

Whatcha gonna do next, Scotland?

Have all the cozy feet Petes walk out of WM? LMFAO! Never happen…

Or have SNP MSPs walk out of Holyrood, DUP style, and refuse to administer the executive in parliament?

More chance of Vlad the Invader being awarded a Nobel Prize for peace.

To paraphrase one of the better lines in Braveheart…

“The almighty says he can get me out of this mess, but he’s pretty sure, you’re all f****ed! Ah-hah!”

Ireland, here I come!!!

The friendly sassenach

robertkknight say
Cue Westminster’s next wheeze…Offer a S30 with so many strings that not even Sturgeon’s pro-Devo/anti-Indy SNP has the stomach to accept it, and it’s game, set, match Westminster?

— there will be no offer, why should there be? They will deal when support for independence is so high that not doing so is a political non starter, and not until. 50/50 doesn’t cut it – ask the Catalans….

Patsy Millar

Bugger!

Ross

This is a time for unity.

It’s time to back the horse we’re on.

GEIndyref it is.

Geri

We now bin the SNP to the bucket & switch to a more competent leader who has a spine.
Claim of Right, let’s drive this fecker back to a fringe party along with the cultish greens.

Onwards & upwards. A signatory to the Act of Union has been deemed inferior.

It has to be swift & call a Holyrood election. She can’t remain in power a moment longer. Since when did an International ruling on a region – apply Nationally to a country?

James Che

Breeks.
Lorna Campbell.

It is exceedingly frustrating distressing to find Scotlands people looking to others for recognition of themselves, of their nation, of their Country.
Talking of UDI.

We are who we are,

A Country and nation of Scotland whom were never asked to join a Treaty of union with England, Whose Parliament was extinguished prior to entering in union with the English parliament to become the British parliament when it opened its doors.

What we are right now is up for debate, Blind, ignorant, easily fooled,
A country colonised by force, certainly.
But a Scottish Nation, Country and 1707 parliament that continued into the British parliament without Hindrance, No.

The treaty of union was not completed by Scotlands parliament due to the English parliament stating the 1707 Scottish parliament was extinguished.
The Scottish parliament has not been in the Treaty of union since 1707.

Hatuey

This must be what it’s like for football fans when the manager is completely useless. I’m at a stage where I want “the team” to lose, because anything resembling a victory will bolster the position of the useless manager.

I guess that’s why very few of us are talking about going to any demo’s tonight. Anything that distracts from the utter uselessness of Sturgeon is the enemy.

So, let me guess, all the star players are on TV and everywhere else, pretending they’re deeply aggrieved, pretending all they care about is independence, pretending they love you, the best fans in the world, etc., etc., trying to shore up the manager and her regime…

I haven’t vomited in some time but I remember when I did my mouth felt all sweaty and wet beforehand, the way it does right now.

Bob Mack

The question all SNP loyalists must now ask themselves is this.

If this was all part of some master plan carefully thought out and scripted, then why are the SNP having to hold meetings to work out where they go from here?

It was a complete mish mash. That is just fact.

Merganser

PacMan @ 12.36.

You are so right about this. Why can’t more people see what is staring them in the face? Sturgeon is a fraud, a self-perpetuator of a cushy existence. And a never emptying trough for her mates to feed at, while they introduce ridiculous polices never voted for.

A single issue election is a free ticket for Sturgeon to carry on doing what she wants without any scrutiny. Madness.

Luigi

If the SNP cannot even get us a consultative referendum, how con earth can they expect us to continue voting SNP for independence? What exactly are we voting SNP for?

scunner

“GEIndyref”?

With Labour looking like a shoe-in, the trad voters will back them again.

The SNP will lose seats (even if they gain the current Tory ones), will get less than 50% and Indy is Toast.

schrodingers cat

if no indyref, then every election going forward will be a de facto plebiscite.

if the unionists didnt want a neverendum…….they now have one

schrodingers cat

does the ruling mean rishi gets to decide what the monster raving looney party can and cannot put in their manifesto or does it give the power for rishi to stop scots from voting in any future election?

scozzie

Big Jock @ 12:40pm
“Hold our noses and vote for SNP” this is like deja vu! How many times can you be conned? SNP is now utterly corrupt and compromised. Requires a wholesale clean out from the snake’s head down and who would be left that could deliver independence (or event wants it)?

You have a window of time to get grassroots mobilised.
It utterly pains me to say this but maybe Alex Salmond steps into the background to focus on political strategy and Kenny MacAsgill steps up as leader of Alba(the SNP have really tarnished AS reputation that it’s just not breaking through).

It kinda feels like Ireland’s Sinn Fein’s early breakthrough- today’s ruling has shown we’re occupied (not physically but politically) it’s all for the taking just need the right people at the right time, with the right message.

Bob Mack

@Schrodingers,

The Supreme Court has just ruled Scotland cannot hold a referendum without Westminster agreement. Legally, that will also apply to a plebiscite. Where then?

Big G

Dear fellow wingers,

Are you actually planning to put a X beside the name of your constituency’s SNP candidate in a plebiscite?

First of all, how does that move us forward if WM can just keep rejecting and ignoring Scottish democracy, however it is expressed?

Secondly, how can we be sure the SNP won’t use the subsequent mandate to push through the worst possible extremes of their woke nonsense?

Isn’t this just the biggest carrot yet, to be followed by the biggest stick?

James Che

Alf Baird.

The Scotland is a Colony, has finally dropped, thank god,
We have been saying it for long enough, Yourself, a lot longer than I.
The SC backed up and verified what we have been saying.

Now We wait for the penny to drop, that Scotlands parliament never continued its journey into the British parliament.
As the Scottish parliament Extinguished itself in 1707 by AGREEing to the Treaty of Union,
The Scottish parliament closed its doors prior to the union of parliaments as the British parliament.

The extinguished Scottish parliament cannot and has not been in the British parliament for over three hundred years.

Republicofscotland

At least we know now that we are not in a union, more importantly those indy supporters who still thought that we were in a union, now know for sure that we are not.

We also now know as the Rev stated, that Sturgeon has betrayed us and failed the indy cause abysmally. Of course, she is now grandstanding for those who still believe that she wants Scottish independence, her act of railing that she’s angry at the judgement will wash with some, but looking at her record on Scottish independence its abundantly clear that she has harmed the cause more than helped it.

If she had even a smidgen of decency and morality she’d resign immediately, but she has neither and will not.

Sturgeon the betrayer of Scots cannot be trusted to use the next GE as a plebiscite not after betraying the cause.

James Che

Geri.

A signatory to the Treaty that was never completed by the 1707 Scottish parliament, as it closed it door beforehand.

Before the British parliament opened.

Grahame Case

I was discussing with a friend earlier, we both agreed it would never come to it but the only route we can see to leave England now is the way the Irish did

Astonished

“Ross says:
23 November, 2022 at 1:54 pm
This is a time for unity.

It’s time to back the horse we’re on.

GEIndyref it is.”

I could only back this if the leader and the transcult were removed. Sturgeon has betrayed us far, far too often to ever be trusted.

Over to you Ross.

James Che

Republicofscotland.

It is time for us to let slide the devolved Colonial parliament in Scotland and all that float in it as s….like the SNP.

Its passed, it gone, it was never ours. They were never our parties as long as the swore a oath of alligiance to outside Scotland as their master.

The snp story is a old story, as old as the hills in scotland,

We need to move on from our hang ups,

We have been fighting the wrong end of the Treaty of union for to long.

sarah

@ Graham Case: “..the only route..”

There’s Salvo’s route – has your friend signed up to the Edinburgh Proclamation [on salvo.scot and also on liberation.scot]?

James Che

Grahame Case.

Or by opening our eyes and realising there is Actually no treaty of union between the two parliament.
As the Scottish parliament ceased to exist and was extinguished in 1707.

schrodingers cat

@Bob Mack

thats kinda the point im trying to make…. the ruling doesnt stop anyone from putting anything they want in a manifesto. nor can they stop people voting for that manifesto.

its one thing to deny the chance to vote, another to refuse the result of an election.

if they do then we move to civil disobedience, and rightly so.

the only way rishi can keep the union intact is to temporarily deny people the opportunity to vote

Cameron Lochiel

Once upon a time, the enlightened sage, Drunken Bothersall, stated “The SNP are a busted flush”. His words came true today. Yes, we know that mandarins loyal to Imelda engineered the situation, but only the most one-eyed Essenpee loyalist would now believe that independence is feasible (or even sought) under the regime of Elsie MacSelfie and her crooked cabal.

If you’re a member of the SNP and genuiely seek independence, you have no choice but to turf her out and all her Grima Wormtongue lackeys. If, however, you feel that to do so would be unrealistic given her Stasi-like control of the party, then you should seriously consider voting for a party that actually does believe in independence and has credible notions of how to deliver it

schrodingers cat

Bob Mack

The Supreme Court has just ruled Scotland cannot hold a referendum without Westminster agreement. Legally, that will also apply to a plebiscite. Where then?
———–

how can an election be blocked???

James Che

Sarah.

Salvo is good, but also not the only route,

We have had no Scottish parliament in the British parliament since 1707. When it closed its doors.

Anyone sitting in Westminster as Scottish parliament members representatives are frauds, for the past three hundred years,

stuart mctavish

@Lorna Campbell @1:25pm

I’ll take the other side of the “no other way the ruling could have gone” assertion as I’m fairly certain the UKSC just conspired to misconduct itself by putting its future existence in jeopardy.

Given the arrogance to assume it had standing in the first place, the correct conduct would have been to go further than provide clarity on the matter referred (ie Holyrood can indeed conduct consultative referendums) and insist that a binding referendum next October would provide much needed clarity on the UK constitution and the Supreme Court’s place in same. (ie in anticipation that its own future coud be secured via negotiation whoever won indyref2). Instead it appears that, for whatever reason, self harm has been allowed to win the day thus rendering the concept obsolete whatever happens.

Ottomanboi

GRAHAME CASE. 2:25pm
The Brits ie English have never left anywhere without a bloody mess.
Scotland is effectively the old order’s last stand. No Scotland, no UK, British prétentions exploded, curtain down on that world stage.
Perfidious to the last.

Republicofscotland

James Che @2.34pm.

James

There’s no way out of this hostage position we find ourselves in via Westminster, we’ll need to break Westminster laws to break this hostage position. Sturgeon the betrayer will never ever defy the foreign governments parliament that’s holding us hostage especially on reserved matters.

Unless there’s mass civil unrest, what can we do until Sturgeon the Judas is removed from office she is a major stumbling block on dealing with our hostage position.

England’s parliament CANNOT stop us from throwing off the shackles of oppression that we know know we’re in, as long as we have the right FM in place, an FM who isn’t a treacherous b*stard like Sturgeon.

Scotland is a prisoner in this onesided union a hostage that’s denied democracy.

Jamie

An independent Scotland can join EFTA practically quibble free. So whilst I don’t think an independent Scotland should rejoin the EU I accept it is the majority position so even though I personally will be worse off back in the EU, Scotland joining EFTA gives Scotland almost all of the perks of being in the EU without actually being in it.

So that’s one positive. Indyref 2 or a plebiscite election can be fought on the proviso Scotland joins EFTA.

I’m sure Alba will us proud there. I grew up in an SNP/ Scottish nationalist family and I remember as a child watching the SNP lose election after election. It is only as an adult I finally got to see the SNP win thanks to Alex Salmond.

It took a long time and winning parties don’t get built overnight.

If everyone keeps the faith and keels doing their little bit we will get there in the end.

I have faith because the hardcore Scottish nationalists that built the winning SNP have joined Alba. They know it takes perseverance and lots of time. We will do it, but it won’t come easy or quick.

There are no shortcuts.

I predict, eventually the SNP will fall, just like every other party that has gone before and nationalists will have a choice, vote Alba or go back to the unionists.

I would bet folk choose Alba. It could be a while before the SNP fall apart though, Scottish Labour lasted over a decade with repeated calamities.

It’s just a matter of when, not if.

Ruby

Did we not know way back in 2011 that we required Westminster’s permission to have a legally binding referendum?

What is the difference between a defacto referendum and a normal general election where the SNP claim that a vote for them is a mandate for a referendum?

Is this something else we are expected to believe?

General elections are legally binding referendums. If you don’t believe that then you are a bigot a referendumophobic.

James Che

Sarah,

If the Scottish parliament closed it doors in 1707, as the UK parliament site still states in 2022.

There can be no Scottish parliament representative from Scotland in Westminster today, until we the people re-open our Scottish parliament.

Meanwhile the Snp are under English law in a English legislated devolved Colonial government placed in Scotland without a completed Treaty.

schrodingers cat

Ruby says:
What is the difference between a defacto referendum and a normal general election where the SNP claim that a vote for them is a mandate for a referendum?
—————-

one is a vote for a referendum, the other is for independence

Ottomanboi

WHAT DO WE WANT?
link to archive.ph
DO WE WANT IT ENOUGH?

Ian McLean

Iain Lawson makes a good point today. We may have dodged a bullet in that Sturgeon would not be capable of leading a successful referendum campaign.
She has to go.

Desimond

Hearing so many folk out there going on about “get the next General Election and “we just ask the question”…

I have to admit, I have no idea how that’s expected to actually work in reality…

“Just ask the question”…Just How exactly?

Where on a General Election ballot paper is there a Question for wannabee Independence folk to ask? They get their name and party, thats it. No more. No Manifesto, nothing else.

Who decides each candidate at at each constituency. Single Independence person only then yeah? Is that decided by local hustings like?

Who decides what winning is? Is it seats?, is it votes?
And
Who decides that Westminster must accept it? We have had plenty of SNP majorities before, that never meant owt did it?

Why should a Westminster General Election care about results in 57 seats out of 650? It didnt recognise Ireland in 1918 having 70% of votes for people on a “Leaving” ticket.

If we dont get a “win”..do I assume, the single Independence item issue Politician that won their constituency vote just go to Westminster?…but who do they represent exactly?

If it aint a Yes/No Referendum vote, I cant see how it logically survives. They probably know the same mind so all happy and comfy.

ross

@astonished

I’ll be voting for the party or parties proposing independence for my country.

Everyone is entitled to their own actions.

We’ll know on the day of GEIndyref what the options are and vote accordingly. If he proposal of today is the same on that day I vote for independence.

No-one said it was going to be easy. If De Klerk can work with Mandela, if Churchill can work with Stalin. We can unite for our country. If we don’t, it’s all over anyway.

James Che

Republicofscotland.

Why?

Why do you have to break Westminster laws if we are not in a treaty with them?

What makes you still believe that a extinguished 1707 Scottish parliament has any Scottish representatives in Westminster?

What makes you still believe that?.. Our parliament has been closed for over three hundred years,
Scotland is has not been a participant in the treaty of union for over three hundred years.

Long enough to say that Westminsters British Parliament and Laws and the Treaty of union that was not continued or survived three hundred since 1707 is void.

That Westminsters English parliament is still Englands parliament and laws.
But those laws from Westminster can have no jurisdiction over Scotland with regards to a treaty that was cancelled by extinguishing the Scottish parliament.
As soon as the Scottish parliament was extinguished in 1707 so was the treaty of the union,
We ( Scotland ) never entered the new British parliament as a Scottish continued parliament.

There is no Treaty, it was cancelled when Westminster parliament claimed the Scottish parliament was cancelled and had extinguished itself by ~ Agreeing to the treaty of the union, not enacting it.

Taxi for Sturgeon

I can’t see how sturgeon can continue after this dramatic failure. She has failed us all. Her army of sycophants are desperately trying to defend her. The same people told us all there would be another referendum in 2023. These sycophants have no shame! Sturgeon is finished and needs to have some grace and accept here failings and resign now!

Ruby

schrodingers cat says:
23 November, 2022 at 3:05 pm

Ruby says:
What is the difference between a defacto referendum and a normal general election where the SNP claim that a vote for them is a mandate for a referendum?
—————-

one is a vote for a referendum, the other is for independence.

Oh I see you just wave a magic wand and and make a general election a referendum.

Is this type of referendum legally binding?

These politicians who get elected during the magic referendum do they immediately stop going to Westminster? If not why would they be going there?

Republicofscotland

If Ian (Scotland won’t stand for it) Blackford SNP MP was so outraged today at finding out that Scotland is a hostage, denied democracy by England, then why didn’t his SNP MPs walk out in disgust, answer, because for most of them the outrage is nothing more than an act, an act they need to put on to placate the indy masses back home in Scotland.

SNP MPs don’t want to lose their cushy well-paid jobs at Westminster, Scotland being held hostage and denied democracy is acceptable in their eyes, and the eyes of our treacherous FM Sturgeon. Remember the same faux outrage over Brexit by the SNP MPs/MSPs and Sturgeon, tell me what came of that, answer zero, nil nada, give it a week or two and the language from Bute House will, maybe not have changed too much, but the false outrage will have.

Let’s not forget the proposed indyref next year was a MOCK indyref it would’ve had no effect on the status quo, it would merely have gauged opinion in Scotland.

We are held prisoner by England and our FM and her MPs and MSPs don’t care, maybe some do, but they are too gutless and spineless to open their mouths and say something, in case they lose their place at the Scottish taxpayer’s gravy train.

Doug

All pro independence MPs must remove themselves permanently from Westminster. Just walk out and stay out. Won’t immediately change things of course but at least it would show up Westminster and the so-called united kingdom for what they are: profoundly undemocratic.

Republicofscotland

“Why do you have to break Westminster laws if we are not in a treaty with them?”

James Che.

Westminster is holding Scotland as a prisoner, using ITS LAWS, as you say we now know that we are NOT in a union but held hostage by a foreign country, in Westminster’s eyes anyway, we deem our way, to free ourselves from this hostage position will be seen as breaking their laws, I didn’t say their laws were legitimate in Scotland just that it’s their laws.

Scott

UKSC today confirmed that Scotland’s status as an independent nation is a matter for the courts to rule on, which is nice.

A petition to the nobile officium of the Court of Session, seeking permission to repeal the Union with England Act 1707 for breaches averred is now a perfectly lawful route to independence.

Fuck yer plebiscites and referendums, this is now a matter of law.

Happy Christmas.

James Che

Republicofscotland.

That was english law that cancelled the 1707 Scottish parliament from entering and continuing into the treaty of the union.

Under Scots Law, Scotland had Sine die’d the Scottish parliament.

For three hundred years Westminster parliament considers and views itself as the only parliament in the treaty of the union, ( In Westminster), after they cancelled the Scottish parliament in England using the articles of the treaty of the union.

As we try understand this from their perspective, Their has been no active Scottish parliament in the treaty of the union for the past three hundred years or more,

A EXTINGUISHED SCOTTISH PARLIAMENT IS A EXTINGUISHED TREATY OF UNIION BETWEEN THE SCOTTISH PARLIAMENT OF 1707 AND THE ENGLISH PARLIAMENT 1706.

Breeks

Desimond says:
23 November, 2022 at 3:15 pm

“Just ask the question”…Just How exactly?

Put a solitary YES candidate in every constituency with no manifest other than the binary “A vote for me is a vote for Scottish Independence”.

Win 30 out of the 59 Scottish seats in Westminster and Scotland has a sovereign and democratic mandate for Independence, to withdraw Scotland from Westminster and the Union, and thereby terminate the United Kingdom’s existence.

Other Independence candidates or parties on the ballot can only split the vote, so it must be agreed between the parties early doors, but already Sturgeon has the SNP stamping their feet like obnoxious prima donas. I wouldn’t trust the SNP and Greens to run a raffle, nevermind a plebiscite General Election.

Sturgeon has already tried to screw it up by declaring a 50% share of the vote is required as opposed to a minimum 30 seats. Not in a Westminster General Election it isn’t. 30+ seats on that Independence ticket and Scotland walks.

It has to be a “neutral” YES candidate in every constituency, and every Indy voter knowing what the deal is and voting for the YES candidate and no other.

Sturgeon has to go, and the sooner she does, the better for Scotland.

schrodingers cat

Ruby says:

Oh I see you just wave a magic wand and and make a general election a referendum.

———–

no, you stipulate in your manifesto that a vote for your party is a vote for independence, not a referendum. simples.

no magic wands needed.

Ruby

Republicofscotland says:
23 November, 2022 at 3:25 pm

If Ian (Scotland won’t stand for it) Blackford SNP MP was so outraged today at finding out that Scotland is a hostage, denied democracy by England, then why didn’t his SNP MPs walk out in disgust,

‘cos they had ‘Boeuf en Croûte’ on the menu today. They all like the ‘Boeuf en Croûte’ with lashing of gravy.

Christmas is coming they wouldn’t want to miss out on all the Christmas Fayre.

Andy Ellis

@Desimond 3.15 pm

Why should a Westminster General Election care about results in 57 seats out of 650? It didnt recognise Ireland in 1918 having 70% of votes for people on a “Leaving” ticket.

This isn’t Ireland in 1918 though, it’s Scotland in 2022. We don’t have the “Ulster problem” and we aren’t faced with threats of violence from the imperial power, whatever some of our more hysterical BTL posters might have us believe! Westminster was not reconciled to the concept of Home Rule for Ireland 100 years ago, still less full independence for an Irish republic. They didn’t even know if they could depend on the British army to do their bidding in Ireland, particularly if it had been called upon to suppress a loyalist uprising against Irish home rule or independence, or to enforce their chosen solution if the Irish parties couldn’t agree on a way forward.

It’s the job of the independence movement to make Westminster care about the results of a plebiscitary election by being crystal clear that it won’t take no for an answer, and that 50% + 1 votes is de facto independence.

Either we live in a democracy or we don’t. People either accept that the majority wins, or they don’t. Remainers didn’t refuse to accept a 52% Leave vote. Yes voters didn’t refuse to accept a 55% No vote. Them’s the breaks!

If the Scottish people are supine enough to accept being dictated to, then they can hardly quibble down the line that some bad menz said no and stole their independence. A people whose ancestors swore they would never submit to English rule so long as 100 of them remained alive will be a laughing stock if they meekly “crouch down and lick the hands which feed them”, accepting that they need permission to be free.

Breeks

Scott says:
23 November, 2022 at 3:35 pm
UKSC today confirmed that Scotland’s status as an independent nation is a matter for the courts to rule on, which is nice.

A petition to the nobile officium of the Court of Session, seeking permission to repeal the Union with England Act 1707 for breaches averred is now a perfectly lawful route to independence.

Fuck yer plebiscites and referendums, this is now a matter of law.

Happy Christmas.

Yup. You can also claim all democratic routes to Independence are exhausted (lol except the one I just mentioned last comment, tsk, tsk).

Personally, I’d load every one of these precedents, legal principles, and SALVO inspired protocols into the same Constitutional blunderbuss and hit the UK government, UN, EU, and International community with the lot. Kaboom.

Ruby

schrodingers cat says:
23 November, 2022 at 3:40 pm

Ruby says:

Oh I see you just wave a magic wand and and make a general election a referendum.

———–

no, you stipulate in your manifesto that a vote for your party is a vote for independence, not a referendum. simples.

no magic wands needed.

Is that in the same way as you stipulate in your manifesto that a vote for your party is a vote for a referendum?

James Che

Republicofscotland.

Perhaps I am not explaining this very well.

English laws ended the treaty of the Union articles in 1707 by not accepting the Scottish parliament as a active Scottish 1707 parliament entering into the new British parliament thereafter,

If we are following english laws from Westminster with regards the treaty of the union, then it is those very same english laws from Westminster that cancelled the Scottish parliament from continuing with the treaty of union of two parliaments to become one parliament of Britain.

There is no Treaty of union of the two parliaments because of English Westminster Laws.
Therefore english Westminster law does not tie us to England,

Its our fear.

Jockanese Wind Talker

“Those who make peaceful revolution impossible will make violent revolution inevitable.”
JFK, speech at the White House, 13th March 1962.

Unfortunately, I think that’s exactly what Westminster wants.

I echo those above who say email all SNP MPs, MSPs and Councillors demanding Sturgeons resignation!

Some organised local demos outside SNP constituency offices may be an idea for Salvo?

Chas

I have an idea and admit that is maybe a bit radical for some.

Why does a Political Party in Scotland not try and demonstrate to the electorate how the people in an Independent Scotland would be physically, mentally and financially better off? ‘Trust me on that’ and other meaningless words from Ms Sturgeon and her acolytes does not cut it.

As it stands the MAJORITY in Scotland currently do NOT support Independence. Generally people vote with their heads and not their hearts, of course, ignoring some of the zealots on here. There are a lot of people out there who would change if someone convinced them to do so. Platitudes from politicians only work for the sheep. Cold, hard, factual analysis and facts work. It is unfortunate that the only person even attempting to provide this is Rev Stu. Why is that?

By all means folks on here can drone on about Sovereignty, Colonialism,300 year old treaties and ‘fanciful’ means to gain Independence, but this will not change a single thing.

Get the MAJORITY of people on board the Independence train and it will show up at the station. At present the train is on the drawing board and given the expertise the SNP have in building things I fear for Scotland.

schrodingers cat

@breeks

gotta agree with the rev, no one will accept that 30 seats with 33% of the vote is a mandate for indy, i wouldnt

50% +1 it is

the majority of seats will be pro indy, they have been since 2011

Ottomanboi

TIME2NIX NICOLA…..

«It is not what a lawyer tells me I may do; but what humanity, reason, and justice tell me I ought to do»

Edmund Burke

Republicofscotland

Angela Haggerty on Radio Shortbread today getting behind the “idea” that Scots must provide a 60% vote before yes is declared a winner in an indyref that we are not allowed by our jailers.

I was wondering who was the last PM to be elected PM with a 50+1 percent of the vote.

schrodingers cat

Ruby says:

Is that in the same way as you stipulate in your manifesto that a vote for your party is a vote for a referendum?
————-

yes, the difference is like voting for someone to take a penalty and voting for someone to score a goal.

a penalty is a penalty, not a goal

a goal is a goal

Ruby

I get it now! Sturgeon promised us a referendum but Westminster said NO. Simple solution just change general election to referendum and hey presto Sturgeon has delivered.

Indy Ref2 to be added to her list of achievements.

Ebok

Then I awake and look around me
At four grey walls that surround me
And I realize, yeah
I was only dreamin’

The way things are shaping up, many of us will be lying beneath the green green grass long before Indy finally arrives.

The movement has been shattered into 1000 pieces and todays ruling, and the reaction, including comments on Wings, hardly screams unity of direction.
I think we all need to take a step back, and pray for leadership and unity to emerge. That won’t happen today, or tomorrow, but it needs to happen quickly.

The prepared and well-rehearsed speech from Sturgeon makes it clear that she will have to be toppled – she ain’t going voluntarily.
There is no apparent method for removing her other than by bitter in-fighting and rebellion within NSNP, and a catalyst for this may be next month’s GRR vote. Further unrest in advance of this by the NSNP WM contingent may spread within the party, but who knows?
And even if this does happen, it will cause further division, but it’s looking increasingly likely that all the bricks will have to be knocked to the ground before we can start to regroup and rebuild.

For that reason I won’t be duped into attending todays pre-arranged demo’s by this callous manipulator, who will, no doubt, claim any large scale turnout as a show of support for her. I’m hoping today’s demo’s will be a damp squib, I’m hoping that the electorate stop dreaming, and I’m hoping when they wake up they will see the light.

Aulbea1

For being the figurehead, sturgeon will be very well rewarded through & by the establishment she serves.

Breeks

How many completely non-democratic countries in the world have International recognition but no democracy at all? Saudi Arabia, Vietnam, China, Jordan, North Korea…

International Recognition isn’t a science, it’s the prerogative of the Nation who gives it, and if Scotland had dutifully observed Westminster Protocol to return a sovereign democratic mandate which withdrew Scotland from the UK, I do not accept there is any barrier to securing International recognition.

If UK democracy is broken and dysfunctional, then let that be the demise of the broken and dysfunctional UK.

Why should I, as a sovereign Scot, accept ANY ballot or election in Scotland as legitimate when our broadcast media is State sponsored propaganda which indoctrinates our population daily? Why do these violations of democratic purity only compromise Scotland?

If you’re so worried about a “perfect” gold standard democracy, then dissolve the Union on 30+ Westminster seats, crash the Union, but commit Scotland to a ratification plebiscite after 2 years, as if we had an Article 50 type Brexit Leaving Protocol to be approved by the people.

Even if that Plebiscite is lost, (god help us), the 1707 Union would be dead and a new Treaty of Union would be required. We’d be hard pushed to negotiate a worse one than 1707.

We take our chances on 30 seats victory; the benchmark Thatcher feared, and strive hard, working with other nations to explain our legitimacy in Law, our colonial style oppression and exploitation, and we win them over for recognition.

Gregory Beekman

We’re not prisoners.

Here’s the solution to getting out of the UK:

Create a party that sits UK-wide. Once that gains power in Westminster, it can change the law so that devolved nations can hold referenda whenever they choose, but also that UK gov can impose one.

Then a referendum is held and we hope we get the answer we want.

Simples.

Gregory Beekman

This is basically what Alistair Jack said.

daodao

This is not a judgement imposed by England on Scotland, but a decision by the UK Supreme Court, whose president and deputy president are both Scotsmen – the Lords Robert John Reed and Patrick Hodge.

Calum

For anyone who doesn’t know, you can find and write to your elected representatives here:

link to writetothem.com

I’m not particularly optimistic that writing to these folk will achieve much but it just took a few minutes to contact both my MP and MSP (all my regional MSPs are non SNP).

schrodingers cat

in 1707, the sovereignty of the english monarch was invested in the english parlaiment, the sovereignty of the scots monarch was invested in the scots people.

what happened with the treaty of the union left the result vague, the contradiction was never clarified. until today that is.

until today, many in scotland believed that the people of scotland remained sovereign, that also included many unionists, indeed, it was often used by unionists as a reason for the union.

todays clarification was the last thing unionists in scotland wanted to hear, they have been avoiding this clarification for 300 years.

todays decision only delays the people of scotland voting on its constitutional future. there exists no mechanism to dictate to anyone what they put in a manifesto or whether people can vote for that manifesto.

thats why we see calls today from labour for a 60% threshold

Gregory Beekman

Who is up for founding “The UK-Wide Scottish Independence Party”?

Republicofscotland

“I was wondering who was the last PM to be elected PM with a 50+1 percent of the vote.”

After a wee search it turns out from (1918-2021) UK GE elections, no Labour or Conservative government has even reached the 50% mark never mind the 50+1 percent mark.

On the other hand.

The May 2015 election, when the SNP party received 50% of the vote in Scotland and won 56 seats.

link to commonslibrary.parliament.uk

Breeks

… that’s what Willie MacRae and the Scottish UN Committee we’re doing in the ‘80s, lobbying for Scotland all over Europe and the UN, winning them over to our side.

That what Scotland should have been doing every minute of these 8 wasted years under Sturgeon.

Gregory Beekman

Or maybe we could call it Jock Go!?

We’d probably get more votes in England that way!

Andy Ellis

@Breeks

The international community recognises countries. It doesn’t play favourites, nor does it seek to erect a camp of the saints containing only virtuous nations that abide by all the supposedly generally accepted principles of international law, which is itself an imperfect and far from generally accepted corpus of laws.

If you want to live in the North West European equivalent of the Turkish Republic of Northern Cyprus, or Transnistria or Somaliland or South Ossetia, by all means carry on. The international community won’t give a flying fuck at a rolling donut, and you won’t have a lot of luck travelling on your new Scottish passport, or trying to exchange yer baw bees for Euros next time you fancy a couple of weeks in Ibiza.

Rev Stu is right. It’s passing strange that folk still can’t see it, but then look what happened when he tried to school them on the cunning franchise restriction plan!

Plus ca change, plus c’est la meme chose?

Breeks

Has she resigned yet?

Republicofscotland

“This is not a judgement imposed by England on Scotland, but a decision by the UK Supreme Court, whose president and deputy president are both Scotsmen – the Lords Robert John Reed and Patrick Hodge.”

UKSC created in 2009 by House Jock Gordon Brown, who put a few Scottish House Jock judges on it to shut up Scots. Fastforward to today, and a few House Jocks still sit on it.

Don’t try and tell me it doesn’t have our jailers (England) best interests at heart.

I don’t recognise the authority of England’s UKSC over Scotland and Scottish affairs.

schrodingers cat

Ruby says:
I get it now! Sturgeon promised us a referendum but Westminster said NO. Simple solution just change general election to referendum and hey presto Sturgeon has delivered.

————-

no, Nicola pursued the referendum option as it was and still is the best route to independence for exactly the same reason that bojo refused a referendum in favour of resolving the brexit issue at westminster with an election. he won a 80 seat majority and a mandate for a hard brexit with only 43% of the vote, had he opted for a peoples vote (euref2)there was a good chance remain would have won.

todays ruling stopped holyrood holding a referendum, it did not and cannot stop scots from voting

Johnny

Gregory Beekman:

Of course he is at it.

I don’t think such a thing could ever work but if it WERE to be attempted, it’d need to be a pan-UK party but basically appealing to each constituent nation of the UK, i.e. telling English voters why the union is bad for THEM, Scottish why it’s bad for THEM, and so on.

The way it’s put by Jack is of course an utter nonsense on purpose – who could seriously go to the English electorate saying only “vote for us to benefit Scottish voters!”?

Oneliner

Vote SNP 1 & 2 – that was a cracker eh?

d.n. wade

Isn’t Sturgeon now simply using the referendum issue to deflect attention from her multiple incompetencies on ferries, health, education, gender and so forth?

Al-Stuart

.
Stu.,

Do you remember that raving troll with 27 identities… Rock, Kcor etc?

His poker-type “tell” that gave away a strong likelihood it was the same TROLL as “Rock” etc. was an error in his/her/its punctuation. Instead of three dots for an ellipsis, he/she/it would misuse three commas “,,,”

At the time he/she/it caused HAVOC with Unionist-type trolling.

Their modus operandi is to be very reasonable at first. Then when other reasonable people engage with he/she/it, they would get very nasty, very quick and into havoc mode. Several folk did spot the ellipsis error and he/she/it’s muscle-memory mistake in using three commas as their form of ellipsis,,,

Stu., you may have sussed this, but I bet you £20 that Amadan is back on your website under the new fake ID of “Rab Davis” and will emerge with other 27 IDs to cause HAVOC again.

Any surprise that this character is proving a mild irritant within 3 days of your relaunching the Wings website…

——————————————————

BEWARE, THIS IS LIKELY TO BE THE TROLL, FORMERLY KNOWN AS “ROCK” OR “KCOR” AND 27 OTHER FAKE ID’S IN THEIR EFFORT TO CAUSE BTL HAVOC AND WASTE EVERYONES TIME…

Rab Davis says:
23 November, 2022 at 10:40 am
Rev,

We all know what we CAN’T do,,,

What is your opinion on things we CAN do?

Gregory Beekman

Johnny says @4:30pm

We could sell it to England as “getting rid of the Jocks, to the benefit of everyone”

I’m sure a lot of English would go for it!!!

Luigi

Ah the 60% figure rears it’s ugly head again. Here’s an idea: OK 60% threshold required BUT it’s neverendum until one side achieves this. Indy ref held annually until the 60% threshold is met by either the unionists or independenistas. Then it’s settled for a political generation (20 years). What’s not to like? The yoons have to understand that 60% works both ways. They didn’t achieve 60% in 2014 after all. Some of them thought they would lol. If they had I don’t think we would still be talking independence in 2022.