What the hell now?
So, some official and very brief Wings analysis, because we just watched an army of pundits on the TV all missing the bleeding obvious and talking as if a delay to Brexit was now a done deal.
After tonight’s series of votes in the Commons, all five of which were technically won by Theresa May, there are three possible outcomes. Let’s whizz through them all.
————————————————————————————-
OPTION 1: BREXIT ON JUNE 30TH
Tonight’s final vote mandated the government to ask the EU for an Article 50 extension to June 30th in order to implement the Withdrawal Agreement if it passes in Parliament by next Wednesday.
We can’t see any chance of that happening, even if we assume the EU would grant it (which it probably would). 75 MPs would need to change their minds on the WA in the space of a week, and in so far as anything in the world makes sense any more, they’re not going to. We could be wrong, but it looks a total non-starter.
OPTION 2: MUCH LONGER DELAY
This is the second outcome provided for by the motion. It requires the UK to come up with a very good reason for the EU to grant a much longer extension – realistically, the only plausible ones are a second referendum or a general election. The Conservative Party would absolutely implode if either of those things came to pass, and public fury would be considerable.
Even if there were to be an election it probably wouldn’t solve anything anyway, but it’s what we’d do if we were the Tories, because it’d tear Labour in two as well. Be that as it may, though, we can’t see turkeys voting for this particular Christmas. The Tories would need a new leader and we doubt they fancy that battle right now, never mind the chance of losing their own seats.
So either the government will just fail to ask the EU for a long extension, or will do so cursorily, without a decent reason, forcing the EU to run out of patience and refuse.
OPTION 3: NO-DEAL BREXIT IN 15 DAYS
If that transpires, Brexit goes ahead on 29 March, as Theresa May has repeatedly and doggedly insisted that it would, but with no deal. The Tories will be able to blame the EU for refusing an extension, and much of the UK media will back them up.
Brexit will happen, however messily, so Theresa May won’t go down in history as the PM who failed to deliver the “will of the people”, which is the thing that terrifies her the most. Of three unpleasant options, no-deal is probably the one that does the least damage to the Tories, and they’ll appeal to the electorate to deploy the Blitz Spirit and get through these difficult times together, yada yada yada.
————————————————————————————-
Option 1 is a dead duck. Option 2 rips the Conservative Party to shreds and requires the Tories to take responsibility for the consequences of their actions. Option 3 fulfils what they claim is their duty to enact the referendum result, with a hideous outcome but crucially one which can be blamed on someone else.
(Not just the EU but also opposition and rebel Tory MPs who didn’t vote for the WA.)
Based on what you know of this government, readers, which of those do you think is the most plausible? Yeah, us too.
“realistically, the only plausible ones are a second referendum or a general election.”
Or an Indy Ref, which affects the UK Consitution of the A50 invocation.
Yep, seems to be it in a nutshell.
“Or an Indy Ref, which affects the UK Consitution of the A50 invocation.”
I said realistically.
Watching Guy’s speech in your previous post, I’m inclined to think the answer to a delay will be a resounding NO.
I hope that is what happens, and who can blame them.
No deal Brexit in 15 days, followed by Indyref2 (with or without Westminster’s blessing).
Bring it on!
Can I have option 4 please?
With salt, vinegar and a pickled onion?
Or Option 4 we just all keep watching Westminster vote on May’s deal ad infinitum, or until at least we all die of chronic boredom.
Yep, and leaving the Tories in Government, free to indulge their colonial fantasies.
“Nicola sweetie-pie” (croak), “the EU is saying no to an extension, is there any chance you could ask again for that S30 Order?” (croak). “We’ll whip it through in days”.
HoC just decisively voted against a second referendum. Labour abstained although 17 Labour MPs voted against, along with the Tories.
Lol, Nigel Farage is already building his army up for the battle ahead.
link to twitter.com
Changes seat belt for parachute …..
The end is near.
Skrypal2
A giant Russian jobby attacks London.
Leask was right
@yesindyref2
You might have something there. Interesting.
“I said realistically”
I know but Rev, does the word “realistically” apply to anything at all about Brexit and the UK Parliament goings-on? We’re living in the land of make-believe and pink oceans.
@ScottieDog
It’s a scenario I’ve been playing with for months.
We should demand Europe recognises Scotland’s Constitutional Sovereignty, and further recognise that remaining in Europe was the democratically expressed will of the sovereign Scottish people.
Brexit that defies the will of the people is an act of colonial subjugation contrary to international law, and constitutes a formal and irremediable breach of the Treaty of Union. Brexit by itself is ultra vires, since it exceeds Westminster’s Constitutional competence to subject Scotland to Brexit against it’s will.
On 29th March, England and Wales exits Europe on their own. Scotland remains in Europe, initially in the holding pen capacity first mooted in 2016, pending the formal dissolution of the United Kingdom and formal consolidation of Scotland’s independent EU membership.
I do hope Nigel Farage gets involved all over the Telly spouting his bile, folk’ll be beating down the FMs door screaming for Independence rather than having any more of that guy
Brexit has become less about National Interest, and more about preserving your well paid job at Westminster.
That about sums it up.
Gin traps down around the grounds, trip wires out in the woods…
No deal it is then (and always was. That, or no Brexit)
Sounds like all that’s left is the blame game. The Tories and their media will try to make shite stick to everyone and everything except those who caused this fiasco.
@Breeks
That’s the spirit, but not “demand”, ask diplomatically and investigate over a period of months. Wonder if that’s actually happened already?
frogesque says:
14 March, 2019 at 7:31 pm
Can I have option 4 please?
With salt, vinegar and a pickled onion?
One amendment: Salt, *sauce* and a pickled onion, if you please.
If there was another General Election, I predict it will see the lowest voter turn out in living memory. People are just so fed up with the whole thing, even a sunny day wouldn’t tempt them out.
I think the 9 might be interesting the next few days.
Listening to your previous ‘end of rope’ broadcast from the EU Parliament suggests to me the EU will NOT agree to extend Brexit as Wesminster wants if simply to avoid give Farage voice hyjacking the EU Elections AND looking longer term the very real prospect the UK will return to the EU at some point in the foreseeable future.
If the exit is moved to the end of June then there has to be elections to the European Parliament in the UK. Would that be hijacked by those wanting it to be a proxy exit/remain?
Option 3 is 7/1 on paddy power. Be like Reece-mogg, make some money on this clusterfuck.
Option 2,with a “peoples vote” seems wisest,but we don’t seem to have a wise government. In normal times this government would implode,but it won’t. It’s too thick to know it’s dead.
In order to have an extension,they would have to able to prove they are going to use the time sensibly,but is too scared to call either a General Election or re-run the Brexit referendum.
We have,from Scotlands viewpoint,a uk government that we didn’t vote for,kept in power by a party we can’t vote for,pushing through a policy that will actually damage the Scottish economy,that Scotland also didn’t vote for.
How is that NO vote working out there,Scotland?
Mmm, finally a tweet from Sturgeon:
link to twitter.com
Aweright yesindyref2…
Aye and if that came to pass, it would ONLY be for May to jointly-agree to it. Our Scottish Government will be in full control of setting all criteria for our question (which will be the seamus befhor) and future chosen dates.
In doing so, we will permit their MSM to participate in our referendum, by way of campaigning, just like the Yes side are already doing.
What the hell, NOW!
If, if Labour achieve any sort of deal, will they be prepared to put it to the people versus remain.
No need to answer, its patently obvious Corbyn wants leave.
Anyways I’m off to work, don’t think we’re there just yet. More WM shamble votes to come!
Option 3 it’s a no brainer. Also allows May to get another week closer to 29th. Can’t believe the media and opposition haven’t worked this out yet. Nicola should make a statement tomorrow. But she won’t.
@Cactus
Yes, but May could set a fairly short end date on it, to fit in with any Brexit extension length, that would be sensible, and reasonable.
My suspicion? No Deal is the preferred option for the Tories and has been so for the last two years.
Aye. It will ravage manufacturing and agriculture and lower the living standards of countless people for decades to come.
But it will enlarge the pool of desperate workers willing to work for a pittance. It will thus further enrich the already wealthy. It will also provide a pretext for “emergency measures” such as wholesale cuts to public services and lower taxes for the rich.
Best of all? It can be blamed on dastardly foreigners rather than the self-destructive idiocy of the voters of England and Wales.
Fasten your seatbelts Scotland…
I have thought all along it would be a no deal hard Brexit. Will the people accept that, really? A majority of people in the UK want to stay in the EU. The lying scheming troughers who are dragging us out of the EU need to be held to account, but they will not be. They will though have their private jets ready to escape the carnage that awaits the so called UK.
In other countries people get angry, they oust a rogue government, they don’t accept their fate if at all possible.
Scotland is collateral, and the future with a Tory regime looks very bleak from what I can see, if we continue to be shackled to the cesspit so called ‘UK’.
Even a no voting friend sent me a postcard with the quote ‘while 100 of us are alive…’ with a nice saltire on it. That is a surprise and a welcome one.
Rabbit and tatties to eat, for the next few years, anyone?
It’s a disgrace and those responsible need to look at themselves, because future generations will daub their graves with graffiti telling the world just what souless, selfish, greedy troughers they were! Let’s not allow this to go down in history as any sort of victory! Never!
As a side note, anyone got plans for 29th March? It might be a sad day to say the least.
I disagree I’m afraid. I think Mays deal will sneak through next week and we will be out after a technical delay. Then again, the only thing you can say with certain tithe about Westminster is you can’t trust anything they say
Option 4: We revoke A50. OK, granted, it’s probably not likely there would be a majority in WM for it, but we can, and it’s not impossible.
Neatly summed up. I’ve always thought that that’s where we’re headed.
Oh what tangled webs we weave… According to Carole Cadwalldre on Twitter, Arron Banks has been off skiing in the heart of lega Nord territory in Italy. She seems to be implying that ‘some people’ may be asking some other countries political parties( with similar vested interests) to use their influence and vote against any request for an extension.
STV Halla actually has a really good podcast( Outwith) explaining a bit of background about politics in Italy and France but anyway however boring it sounds by not addressing the circumstances of the external influences on the Brexit vote, by trying to save the Tory party at all costs,the U.K. Govt may find a few more complications.
This is only the exit to the U.K. wait til the real stuff starts and whether we stay, leave, vote for a people’s vote or even a GE how the hell can they put humpty together again ?
Fair doo’s and Yes it would seem reasonable too yesindyref2.
Latest polls show Yes Scotland NOW OVER 50% for indy.
=bbs=
No deal has looked most likely to me for a while now, simply because I haven’t seen any way that it could be prevented from happening.
I’ve been saying for AGES that the whole plan was to demand impossible things, fail to get them and then storm out, blaming the EU for everything. No Deal would force Ireland to erect border infrastructure, which suits the DUP perfectly, as well as anti-GFA BritNats like Gove and Rees-Mogg. She’s said since day one that No Deal is better than a bad deal. She’s hoping that one message has sunk in.
Option 3 is good, no? It’s the fastest route to triggering the manifesto clause, “… such as Scotland being taken out of the EU against our will.”
I’ve never understood why people talk about ‘taking no-deal off the table’. (maybe i’m missing something). Until there is a deal, then no-deal is what we have – and given that the government seems incapable of negotiating a deal that everyone can agree with, it’s hard to see how crashing out without a deal can be avoided.
Post-irony exponentially off the scale. Armando Giovanni Iannucci’s writing career is over.
Catastrocluster-bourach? The wheels on the bus go round and round…, until they career off the road straight into the sheugh.
Brace. Brace.
Rev. Stuart Campbell @ 19:31:
Yes, I know, I know. Why not, we can only guess. Whether judged by the-powers-that-be as politically ineffective, constitutionally ineffective, or simply an opportunity overlooked.
Or maybe constitutionally potent after all, just being kept under wraps and all the better for being generally judged irrelevant.
A forlorn glimmer of hope, perhaps, but I for one would really appreciate some stalling of Brexit somehow due to matters Scottish. Just to put the cat among the pigeons, and give us a decent handle on the issue that we currently lack.
I’ve been on the record here for thinking – against the odds – that May might eventually corral enough support to win her “deal”, but barring anything out of left field, even I can’t help but feel that a default no-deal is creeping ever closer by the day.
Which is the necessary clarity, at least. But with what time left to do anything useful about it?
ScottieDog, we will be engulfed by the splatter from said Jobby 🙁
Nicola said any delay to Brexit would not alter her plans for Indy ref2. I hope she was being sincere.
There is a fourth dimension, ( where have I heard that before ! )
I agree with option three but in addition would like to say that leaving without a deal leaves Ireland with the south in the EU and the north out of the EU.
This will lead to Westminster and the EU having further negotiations on a border across Ireland to define where the EU starts and ends and what kind of border it will be ,it has to happen and I reckon it is likely that Westminster will refuse to cooperate and the EU will then have to decide how to carry out border checks without breaking the good Friday agreement, turning the tables as it were.
A Westminster out of the EU will even more difficult to negotiate with than a Westminster in the EU so I expect trouble in Ireland once this filters through.
‘Brexit latest: MPs to vote on giving UK public second referendum.’
…”However, it is unlikely to pass unless it is supported by the Labour leadership and around 25 Conservative rebels. Labour’s position on another referendum has been unclear in recent days, with shadow Brexit secretary Keir Starmer saying he was “proud” to support one while shadow education secretary Angela Rayner said it would be “disastrous”.”….
link to independent.co.uk
Has that vote been held already? Can’t keep up. Losing track here, lol.
link to twitter.com
Some mythical being returns in the flesh at Easter!
Or May’s deal gets reluctantly voted through next week.
In the absence of any sensible choice, pish wins by default.
I say good luck to England with genuine good wishes for the future of the English people.
I also say goodbye, please come up and vist now and again.
We in Scotland after Independence have to stand ready to assist the English refugees who will increase from the present flow to the undoubted torrent.
We have to make serious plans for this likely event.
The end is now in sight.
If nothing else, today’s a fab opportunity to sneak out the dirty truth.
So, Sir David Steel knew about Cyril Smith and did sfa, and now we learn the establishment knew about Saville, and were only concerned about him bringing the honours system into disrepute.
“The committee that recommends people for knighthoods received allegations of child sexual abuse against Jimmy Savile in 1998, an inquiry has heard.
link to bbc.co.uk
With option 3 will come a lavish portion of old fashioned Brit ‘patriotism’. Sadly, it has a tendency to work. Expect sly Scots Gove and Fox, who lately seem to have springs in their respective steps, to be banging the drums and Queen and family to be dancing in rhythm. As of old it will be Britannia contra mundum. The media, of course, will do their duty and fully aid and abet.
Unless that lifeboat Scottish Spring arrives soon we’ll be swept along too.
The establishment has had only a heart flutter, alas.
@Richard Hunter 8.33pm
I understood it as making a statement of political intent backed up with legislation to ensure we do not leave without a deal. There would then have to be revocation of article 50 or a delay for a good reason (new government, another referendum). None of which seems likely.
As you say, if nothing can be agreed, because they triggered article 50 we leave 2 years after with or without a deal.
I really don’t see parliament voting for May’s deal, those 2 defeats where not small majority’s they were record breaking thrashings. Can’t see ‘how’ the EU will just agree to such a short extension with no likelihood of her deal being accepted and they will not ‘renegotiate’ the deal itself. The parliament voted against a ‘people’s vote’ and as described atl they won’t call a GE for those stated reasons.
So there really aren’t any other ‘options’ available but to leave without a deal.
The EU seems to be ‘amenable’ to a longer extension ‘if’ the UK were to spend that time in finding a ‘technical’ solution to the backstop, thereby removing its original ‘red lines’ of either an election or second EU vote as the criterion for an extension. But they would be considering as long as 21 months to allow this process of developing a solution, not 3 months as has been bandied about by UK gov.
In effect we would still be in the EU during that ‘extension’ period.
“I shall either find a way or make one.” Hannibal Barca of Carthage.
Pretty sure NS has been doing the same re: IndyRef 2.
TMay has been doing a great job assisting her.
Spookily enough, I was shouting and waving….stuff… at that very prog earlier on.
You can lose more screens like that.
All the votes today were a waste of time. Everyone in Westminster knew that there was to be another meaningful vote next week, probably on Wednesday the last possible day before the EU council summit on the 21st.
My own opinion is that “her deal” will be defeated once more making today’s motion that she won with an extension until the end of June totally irrelevant.
Next weeks vote might be a lot closer than than other two, it is possible that the DUP and the majority of the ERG will cave in and support her deal but it still looks likely to lose.
This gives Westminster a huge headache, they want an extension but it will have to be agreed at this next EU council meeting, that really is the deadline. So I believe that next weeks vote will include an amendment to request an extension in the event of May’s deal losing once more. That amendment is likely to get enough support to win.
I think any extension will be until at least the end of this year and more likely even longer, if an extension is refused I still do not believe No deal will be the result but revocation of article 50 more likely even if it is required to have a vote of No confidence in May’s government to get rid of her first.
I just don’t see No deal as being acceptable to the majority of MP’s even if many of them are total buffoons not all of them are.
After today the next elections in Scotland should be SNP landslides.
BLiS______d now unelectable after ABSTAINING in the vote on giving UK public a 2nd EU referendum.
FibDems (already the Party of the proven Liar) now guilty of covering up the most heinous of crimes.
Tories now the last stand choice of the “Defence of the Precious Union, No Surrender to Independence Referendums” Hardcore Red, White, Blue & Orange BritNat Voter.
“Scotland Shite, ‘cos EssEnnPeeBaaad” BBC & Dead Tree Scrolls Propaganda will be turned up to 11 now!!
Objectively though, it is pretty poor analysis in the media. They have difficulty in following the arguments through. Could be ineptitude but more likely to be a desire to keep the ‘surprises’ coming & audience attention. One guy on bbc saying a long delay won’t please Macron, others saying Macron says a long delay is needed.
All bollocks. Can’t see why the ERG would back May now, why bother.
My opinion is Theresa Mays Deal will go through next week, the Tories will bind back together while Labour fragments even further. Theresa calls a GE as needs a strong and stable majority, wins a landslide in England.
Meanwhile in Scotland difficult to say, may cause Laour to support Independence, but it’s going to be messy with an emboldened right wing bunch of nutters in Westminster.
Is there any way at all the Red Lines could be dissolved making it a much softer Brexit for rUk and much more the kind of thing that the English MPs would find acceptable?
Could that yet happen?
Thinking that Hilary Benn’s amendment for parliament to wrest control of Brexit was lost by a very narrow margin and could that somehow still come about? A sort of parliamentary rebellion/mutiny?
Brexit would still happen and Scotland would still be heading for Independence as soon as possible!
@ Petra – maybe you’ve caught up by now but, yes the votes were held. Labour abstained on the vote to have a PV although 17 Labour rebels voted with the Tories to defeat the amendment.
So no PV.
The good news is Luke Graham has a CCTV camera at his constituency office entrance covering the front door and window. If he hands over this footage to the police I’m sure they will be able to track down his harassers tout suite.
I’m sure we will all be relieved when this footage is shown in court.
Thepnr @ 9.27
Oh I don’t know so much Alex!!
While the legislation is still there, all it would take is for May to keep them confused and bickering long enough so that the MPs can’t stop no deal “just happening”. ..
No deal is also their last best shot at holding on to us.
Without a transition period ” Westminster rules “, and, some of them have been saying in the last few days debates that they won’t countenance the Union they’ve just left telling them what to do!!
It sounds like that’s “The” real problem with Mays deal,N.Ireland is just the peg they hang it on.
The SNP have been makin it clear another Indy ref is very much on the card’s and they are pretending not to be paying any attention,but worry about how that’s going to go has to be in there too!I
A period of chaos with no oversight from the EU before they start to negotiate their new trade deal,might be just what they need to attempt to lock down Scotland?
[…] Wings Over Scotland What the hell now? So, some official and very brief Wings analysis, because we just watched an army of […]
“Of three unpleasant options, no deal is probably the one that does the least damage to the tories,….@
One of my reasons why I have thought no deal was a likely outcome. This whole leaving the EU is down to the same thing – saving the Tory party. Retention of power at Westminster.
Another is that the Tories don’t give a dam about the impact of no deal on people or the economy.
Vince Cable stepping down to make way for the next generation.
Sorry, despite the learned council here, we are nor even on the radar at Westminster never mind the wider English electorate.
Time for a bit of Political and International Relations Theory?
link to psa.ac.uk
Brexitology: What science says about the UK’s EU referendum
link to newscientist.com
Did conspiracy theories influence the Brexit vote?
link to ukandeu.ac.uk
The politics and economics of Brexit
link to tandfonline.com
Sweet dreams after reading (and agreeing with) this late at night.
Only consolation is the attention will at last turn to Scotland and how we try and extract ourselves from the mess.
Won’t be easy as their Northern colony will be even more crucial to them as ever as they try to arrange trade deals with a significantly impaired reputation and a bunch of utterly useless bastards doing the negotiations
Cubby @ 10.03 pm
Won’t No Deal be actually beneficial to some Tories?
iScotland is imminent.
We can be only one.
Plus iFriends.
With the David Steel cover up of paedophile MP Cyril Smith among the headlines, we are reminded that Theresa May was part of the cover up of the Westminster paedophile ring, which, in the absence of evidence to the contrary, we must presume to be still active.
Time perhaps for them chickens to come home to roost.
More on the influence that philosophical schools have on the nature of International Relations and, subsequently, the nature of individual national-isms .
Realists, Idealists and the EU By Philip Towle
British opinion is emotionally polarised. Realism will again prove more prophetic than idealism but learning its lessons will be painful.
link to briefingsforbrexit.com
Brexit: An international relations perspective
link to plymouth.ac.uk
Brexit and Europe: Liberalism Lost in Translation
link to iris-france.org
BREAKING DOWN THE EU’S BREXIT POSITION USING QCA TO EXPLAIN WHY MEMBER STATES PREFER A HARD OR SOFT BREXIT
link to lib.ugent.be
One week frae NOW takes us up tae the 21st.
Welcome to this week in politics.
We’re in The Clutha, burp
I have said no deal will be the outcome since the referendum. There never existed the chance of getting a good deal from the EU. The reality is they despise the UK and have been as obstructive as it is possible to be. Roll on the 29th March.
Ghillie@10.19pm
Yes I agree that was another of my reasons. Tories always make money out of chaos and others misfortune.
Bbc still fail to mention that Labour abstained on people’s vote
Will aye CHOOSE to speak of ah naughty word or twa 2night…
Yer fucking right and right fuckin’ NOW ’19 like..
Yer fucking Westminster May!
Hi Jockanese at 9:32 pm.
You typed,
“After today the next elections in Scotland should be SNP landslides.”
Ahem, can I just refer you to my comment of a couple of days ago?
link to wingsoverscotland.com
If Theresa May wants to deliver the ‘ will of the people’ she should revoke Article 50.
17.4 million voted to leave the EU – 37.4% of the electorate.
29 million DID NOT VOTE TO LEAVE THE EU – 62.6% of the electorate.
Simples !
“Take back control” has become please please can I have an extension.
When every cunting minute feels like ah fuckin’ second…
We have our Irish in the bar..
You should hear em.
No deal by default on 29Mar is the only feasible option.
Only two options left to prevent this are revoke A50 and General Election as People’s vote was terminated last night. Neither is going to happen though Corbyn will probably attempt the GE once again, but Tories won’t vote for it. Revoke A50 is untenable for Westminster.
So there is no substantive reason for the EU to grant an extension, ipso facto No deal 29 Mar is only feasible option left.
PS I got lambasted for pointing out the pedo rings and its ties to various elites. Its only going to get worse so hang on to your hats.
I hope very much that Breeks is right. Whether or not that is what will actually happen … who knows?
The speeches of SNP members in the HoC do increasingly suggest that the SNP / Scottish Government do have a real plan up their sleeve. One which they are ready to unroll and implement at any minute. I do very much hope so.
I would expect it to include a constitutional argument that the EU is bound to take note of. One that the SNP will already have indicated, perhaps long since, to key EU players. Having informed them that they will bring it into play at what they deem to be the appropriate moment.
According to the EU’s own rules, when a member state chooses to leave the EU, that member state is supposed to fulfill all its own constitutional requirements when doing so. When it is clear how and when exactly the UK is leaving the EU, the Scottish Government together with the SNP’s Westminster MPs might simply declare that the manner in which this has been arranged does not fulfill the constitutional requirements of one of the two constitutive nations that form the UK, namely Scotland. These arrangements, therefore, do not apply to Scotland.
They will then be able to list the reasons that stand in support of this position, starting with the constitutional sovereignty of the people in Scotland, both as long-held and as recently yet again clearly acknowledged by Westminster. To these reasons they can add all the breaches of the Scottish constitution that have taken place in the run-up to Brexit, demanding that not only Westminster but the EU and, indeed, the whole world take note.
This Declaration, for such it would be, would then re-state the clearly expressed will of the Scottish people to remain within the European Union, quoting the result of the 2016 referendum within Scotland’s boundaries. With the And perhaps the best thing would be to leave it at that. That’s what Declarations do – they say to whoever and to everyone – that is to the whole world: ‘Take note: this is the case, this is how things actually are.’ It’s not even ‘Like it or Leave it’. There is no ‘leave it’. It’s just: ‘Put this in your pipe and smoke it!’
Or, ‘That’s you telt!’ You, in this case, including ‘You Westminster’, ‘You, the EU’, ‘You, the UN’ and ‘You, the whole wide world’ – and that includes ‘You, every individual human being alive within this world that we all inhabit!’ There is no coming back on a Declaration: it’s not open to compromise, and it’s not even an invitation to discussion. It just ‘declares’, that’s all. This is how things are!
The signatories would be drawn from among those elected for Scottish constituencies in all three parliaments that have representatives of the Scottish people: Holyrood, Westminster and Strasbourg. Unless I have miscalculated – I can’t remember how it pans out for the European parliament at Strasbourg – I think that would provide a majority of the Scottish representation at each of the three parliaments. That is obviously the case for Westminster, and will be for Holyrood so long as the Greens join in with the SNP there.
How would Westminster and the Tory government react? Well, that would be their problem – not ours. If it was passed through Holyrood, they would no doubt claim that it was illegal, on the grounds that constitutional matters are not devolved. So it might be better not to go that way. It would be enough, I think, simply to issue it, with all the signatures on it, and with the inclusion of a statement pointing out that the signatories form a majority in all three parliaments where the Scottish nation is represented.
This would not quite be a Declaration of Independence, as such, but it WOULD reiterate – moreover, to the whole wide world – what the SNP MPs have been continually saying at Westminster over the past couple of weeks, as no doubt recorded in Hansard: Scotland (i.e. the Scottish people) will NOT be dragged out of the European Union against her will (i.e. against the will of her people). Once such a Declaration is issued, Holyrood – with its SNP + Green majority – could then ‘take note’ of it, and endorse it as a true statement of the Scottish constitution.
Even if Westminster then reacts to that endorsement negatively, as it almost certainly would – saying that Holyrood is not empowered to make such statements – the Declaration will in any case already have been beforehand and noted in every decent newspaper in the world, and people won’t forget it.
The Declaration will not be in the first place a statement of a devolved government, which might be criticised or discounted for over-reaching itself in a legally disputable way, but of a majority of the Scottish representatives in every parliament – national or international – where Scotland is represented. There is no legal impediment whatsoever to a joint statement being made by a group of MPs, MSPs and MEPs on this, or indeed, any other topic.
Moreover, their Declaration, issued in this way will already have caused a stir, even before Holyrood makes any statement on it. And the idea will be well and truly on the map, having already spread far and wide, no matter what the Tory Government says about it subsequently.
In the minds of people – and in reality – it will then be less likely to be seen simply as a dispute between a (supposedly supreme) Westminster parliament and a devolved (and therefore legally expendable) Scottish parliament. That perception has to be avoided, since it will lead people to dismiss the issue all too easily.
Instead, – let’s hope – it will be seen for what it truly is: a dispute between the two constituent parties that form the UK. And a dispute of mega-proportions, which cannot be easily dismissed.
That is, a dispute between the Scottish people on the one hand (whose voice is demonstrably being represented by a majority of their democratically elected representatives) and, on the other hand, whoever is deemed to represent the other constituent party of the UK.
Who exactly that will be, I am not quite sure – but that’s up to them to work it out. T. May and her government (if it still exists) might presume that it means the Tory-DUP alliance, insofar as it still commands some kind of majority at Westminster. But that might not be demonstrably democratic in regard to Wales – or, indeed, to Northern Ireland, if the DUP are not a majority there. So, maybe, in the end, the other constituent party of the UK does indeed turn out to be simply England, which is indeed legally the case (if I have understood the Treaty and Acts of Union properly).
Anyway, that’s their problem, not ours – it is not for us to solve the issue of who can democratically claim to represent the other half of the UK union. As to our half of it, it’s composed of the Scottish people. And whoever is elected to represent us can speak for us so long as they do not betray, or counteract, the will of that same Scottish people.
As far as we are concerned, our own democratic mandate for issuing such a Declaration, in the manner described, would therefore be clear and incontestable. Once a majority of all our elected Scottish representatives sign up to it, its democratic credentials are in principle shown. That majority can speak for Scotland.
The new Declaration they sign would also be articulated in such a way as to stand in clear continuity with previous Declarations and Claims of Right, as recorded and documented in the history of the Scottish people. It would not be inventing a new Constitution for Scotland, but simply applying Scotland’s long established and legally indisputable Constitutional principles to present circumstances.
Let the world take note.
And let the SNP get on with it.
Whatever happens on March 20, which T. May has scheduled for her next attempt to get her deal through Westminster, the time will (I think) be ripe immediately we know the outcome of that one. The SNP certainly have the legal brains and expertise, in abundance, to put such a Declaration together very quickly (just think of Joanna Cherry). Maybe they already have it ready. Up their sleeve, all this while – in which case, all they have to do is pick the right moment to issue it, with all the desired signatures already in place.
Having also decided, perhaps, on the place from which they would declare it, with all the signatories in attendance.
Or am I being unrealistic?
The tone of the recent rhetoric – ‘Scotland WILL NOT be dragged out of the EU against her will’ – allows us to hope.
Any Scot who still wants these absolute roasters to rule over us needs their head examined. Yet there will be unionists out there who will see no evil and hear no evil when it comes to this pathetic excuse for a UK. Westminster must reign supreme, no matter how incompetent, feckless and embarrassing it is.
Unionists, the eternal children who suckle their thumbs and want Mummy England to look after them forever.
On the basis that ‘my enemy’s enemy is my friend’ I would support Anna Soubry/Dominic Grieve to lead a putsch. May has to be removed from office forthwith – it’s obvious she won’t go of her own accord, and her behaviour is becoming increasingly psychotic.
No point involving Labour in any coup – they’ve proved, repeatedly, that they can’t be trusted, even by each other. This problem is of Tory origin, has been an existential threat to them for at least four decades, and must be solved by them if it is to be solved at all. (In any event, they’d *still* win a GE if called tomorrow, right?)
If my weans’ lives depended on me coming up with a suggestion, that would be it.
Sorry, I know none of it will happen, but that’s all I got!
😉
Just turned QT from Ealing off. Four Brexiteers (including Julia Nutjob) and Ian. How can that be a balanced panel when London voted to remain?
How does Julia Nutjob get onto QT so often@? A Even more often than Orange Man – and on the panel!
Good luck Mr Blackford. You’ll need it – if you are allowed to talk at all
I think everyone is missing the point.
Brexit has already happened.
Anyone with family or business conducted in Europe could tell you that.
Way back a decade ago, small business etc knew there was a recession because the april/ may new project budget spending sprees on goods and equipment failed, it failed to pick up and failed again the following year, another 6 months passed before the ‘government’ hinted on MSM we may be perhaps entering a ‘recession’ – old news and businesses were already gone to the wall with full order books.
To date, the same canaries and further, families in mainland Europe have been intimating Brexit is old news, done, kaput, new papers are in order. This has been ongoing for the last year. Which means perhaps one more year of actual destruction, before this government tentatively announces ‘austerity, yeah? Cos things have gone a bit Pete Tong suddenly’
I’m not (and I have said this before) remotely interested in Brexit because it has already occurred. This is auld news to Business and UK/EU citizens.
More likely lengthy extension and some sort of Customs Union and Single Market BINO, there are simply too many Tory MPs like Rudd and Boles who will not accept No Deal under any circumstances.
Do not forget a majority of Tory MPs even voted against extending Article 50 tonight but it passed by a 200 majority anyway, in a hung parliament anything can happen
Toby
“17.4 million voted to leave the EU – 37.4% of the electorate.
29 million DID NOT VOTE TO LEAVE THE EU – 62.6% of the electorate.
The Prime-minister’s drive to deliver Brexit pivoted on her ability to command a Commons majority. She no longer has this, so is no longer able to influence this intrusion of “direct democracy”, in what is still notionally a parliamentary democracy. That’s what happens when the BBC normalises English white nationalism. The political thugs gain control and the ‘national’ interest suffers.
Great analysis – thank you. But what about May’s deal? Isn’t that the most likely outcome or have I missed something?
Freedom Square, Glasow, Scotland, Europe, 2019.
The 24th March, 2019.
Tommy knows.
Just an observation about a General Election.
People saying there would be voter fury if a GE were held, but who would they be furious at and how would they express it ?
Tories ?
Labour ?
Both ?
English leave voters, as the ‘injured’ party, purely as the largest electorate within the Uk, would vote for who exactly ?
17 million ukip voters ? I doubt that very much, and of course, who does the 16 million(ish) Remain voters vote for in all this ? Lib dems ?
Do people seriously believe the 2 biggest parties in a GE tomorrow at WM, would be ukip and the lib dems ?
I think people over estimate the grey matter of an awful lot of voters, especially in England.
Ian Blackford doing very well on QT. He has all the Remainers in the palm of his hands.
Footsoldier @ 10.16
I disagree Footsoldier 10.16.
Yes, the bulk of the MPs don’t really factor in Scotland in their day to day thinking,but that’s because they view us as just a part of the UKs resources.They seem to believe the propaganda as much as their constituents do!
But the UK Government’s and institutions are very aware of the necessity of holding Scotland … they always have been..
Any Chancellor who writes a budget certainly will be,and any Prime Minister,who pushes their ideology too!
The narrative about us, and having to hide things from us has been maintained no matter which government is in power for decades, ( some would say centuries, but that’s more about military strategy) no matter what else is going on.This doesn’t “just” happen!
It really all comes down to how they are going to go about getting what they need to happen,to happen!
They need to Brexit.
They need Scotland.
And also IMHO
They need to manipulate dumping N.Ireland.
I’m NOT sayin that this this is their cunning master plan that they’ve been working towards for year’s,only that they are looking out for their best interests in the here and now.
And that here and now has, always,always included the resources of Scotland,no matter where or when!
The steps they took for things like WW2 and “The Irish Question” is a window not just to how they think and plan for issues in front of them, but also demonstrates how much into the minutiae of things that they will delve to get their desired outcome.
Like Brexit they were responding to events not long planned for… BUT.. They were very quick to identify and act on their interests…
So no Footsoldier… I don’t believe for a minute that Scotland is far from their thoughts!
DMH@10.50
Four against one doesn’t matter David. Ian Blackford just knocked the ball clean out of the park.
Good. I’ll put my TV on agai. It’s a blood pressure thing
Ian Blackford is getting more applause than any other panel member – from a London audience!
And yet again that killer line from IB: Scotland voted to remain in the EU and we will remain a European country (to applause, BTW.
Better get those claymores out from under the thatch – in a manner of speaking of course…
@Ian Brotherhood
It will be Tories like Soubry and Grieve who actually step in and prevent Brexit, some Labour MP’s will vote for No deal and couldn’t care less what might happen then. The same though is true for some Tories and I doubt if there are many left with any loyalty to May, she’s out of the equation now.
Zombie woman dancing!
link to youtube.com
Just tuned-in to QT via R5 Live, it sounds mental…
QT audience plants have put in their appearance, shouty kipper type allowed full on shouting match with guy in front of him.
With Labour abstaining in the vote for a 2nd referendum, to hand victory to the Brexiteers Tories, the hopes of many millions of Remainers were dashed. I suspect that across the UK those millions are feeling down and deflated tonight. Many of them will be Labour voters which means there will be a backlash against Jeremy Corbyn and the Labour Party.
The Britnat troll HYFUD demonstrating quite clearly that Britnats have the biggest brass necks possible and still be able to walk and talk. Any Tory Britnat with any sense of shame would be hiding in their garage or garden shed or somewhere dark right now. But of course Britnats like HYFUD do not do shame – deep down they are colonialists – lacking in empathy and basic morals.
Still peddling your Britnat lies and crap as before.
@Thepnr –
I’m not a very ‘analytical’ person, tend to go more by gut-feeling about how folk look/behave.
Soubry and Grieve are Tories, nae doots, but there’s something about them which suggests that their ‘humanity’ has not been entirely smothered by upbringing and/or ambition. We, as Scots, are in the curious (and unenviable) position of witnessing an unfolding of circumstances which are almost enirely outwith our control, even when we have representatives right there in the WM crucible.
Our friends in the EU have the benefit of being able to view these events more objectively than any of us, and they know this whole Brexit shite is, essentially, a Tory creation. When Verhofstadt was doing his dinger today there’s no doubt who his ire was directed at – he knows, we know, abody knows, he’s losing the rag with the British State as embodied in the Tory party.
Everyone hates them and they don’t care – it’ll take those of them who *do* care to break this impasse, and that means blood on the carpet, sooner or later. Here’s hoping they get the knives out as soon as possible and do us all a favour.
Geeo@11.12pm
I had forgotten that show was on. Trying to stop watching it. It is a fraud. It has become like that Vanessa Feltz show that was exposed as using actors kidding on they were real people. The BBC is a disgrace. Taken over by right wing nutters. Bruce is also horrendous.
@ Capella at 9:26pm ……. “So no PV.”
I’m really busy right now Capella and trying to keep up, lol. Far from easy with all that’s going on. They say that No Deal has been taken off of the table when it’s still a viable option and I’ve just heard them discussing, on Newsnight, that if they end up with a longer extension period a PV could be held. What a shambles.
………………..
Newsnight: Vince Cable is standing down now, so no doubt we’ll unfortunately be seeing even more of Jo Swindle (Swinson). He also made a point of repeating the word “Scotland” on a number of occasions, and Holyrood, when being questioned about David Steele. “The Scottish Lib-dems are investigating this”, he said. You know dump the cr*p on Scotland. I wonder if he, Steele, was asked if he was aware of having any other paedophiles linked to their party? If he was and answered honestly we’d no doubt find out that there was a cabal of them. That of course applies to the Tories and Labour too.
Dave 1031, what? the EI has bent over backwards to help the UK, even agreed to a deal with may which would be an effective customs union and allow the mega rich to tax avoid to their hearts content with no sanction from Europe as per European law. the “Backstop” was the UK Plan, it was not Europe’s , and yet May and Co managed spend two years getting a plan approved by the EU and spent six months trying to get their plan modified by Europe,
for what its worth I think that they want a hard brexit, however I dont see how they can sort ouf the issues in Cyprus for instance where the main dual carriageway (And the only Road) between two main towns, Limassol and Paphos goes through the UK Sovereign Base area so there are two border crossing between UK and EU in the space of a couple of miles, seven border crossings alone in the Episkopi Cantonment, although the others can be closed that main artery cannot. What are the Cypriots going to do, bypass Episkopi by ferry?
I dont think for a minute that the UK gives a damn for the clusterfuck at Episkopi but it will be a problem for the EU.
@petra re: swinson
Apparently she aint a shoe in after all,as it was mentioned earlier there is another throwing their hat into the ring for the job.
@Ian Brotherhood
It’s a strange situation indeed when you’re relying on Tories to save you from the right wing nutters of UKIP and the ERG lot.
Then you have Corbyn and McDonnell, a right pair of fannies. No wonder the SNP are 19 points clear of any other party in Scotland, the rest are absolutely useless.
Top marks to Ian Blackford tonight. He was excellent, no wonder the BBC cut him off when he speaks in Westminster.
Talkin of fannies reminded me of this, worth a sqwatch LOL.
link to youtube.com
@manandboy 11.15pm.
You say that re:Corbyn/labour backlash, but where will those labour voting remainers register their ‘backlash’ ?
They have no one to vote for.
Nearly half of the electorate (remain voters) will struggle to justify their next vote for a mainstream unionist party at WM.
Fun part, we will most likely be watching from a safe space (indy Scotland).
Ian Brotherhood @ 10.50 pm
That’s kind of what I was wondering @ 9.45 pm.
Could there yet be some kind of rebellion/mutiny to take control of this parliament leading to a softer Brexit more paletible to a majority of English MPs?
Came across this app for studying WM votes, good info on how votes went, who did what etc.
Lot of good info about votes all in one place.
link to parliament.uk
Link to app stores at bottom of page.
Footsoldier & Liz g
A couple of basic precepts of English utilitarianism, are the beliefs that “all rational men have the same notion of good” and “the ends justify the means”. These conditions are the only way that Bentham could rationalise his ethics. As such, he rejected natural law and universal human rights.
English utilitarianism forms the basis of British nationalism. Add the English school of rationalist International Relations, and you begin to understand the nature of the beast Scotland must defend itself against.
@ Geeo … ‘Libdems.”
Some good news Geeo, maybe? Anybody but Swindon.
……………..
WGD:- “A matter of self-respect.”
link to weegingerdug.wordpress.com
QT is the perfect example to all Scots as to why Scotland must separate from these headcases who after over two years still haven’t learned anything and what makes it worse is they’re still listening to the people who made fools of them and asking them to keep doing it
How anyone can think the Julia Heartless Brewery is a real person without the most nasty of agendas is beyond belief, and James Faithful Tory Lapdog Cleverly practically has bad embarrassing red faced liar written on a sign coming out of his face
Ian Blackford did far too well considering he’s amongst the most politically illiterate of audiences you could find outside of well a certain area in Central Scotland, his performance was measured and well timed with a sincere and honest tone and the audience responded very well to him …amazingly although when he mentioned Scottish Independence Heartless Brewery was louder in her mockery of Scotland than the collective House of Commons
What a moron of a woman screaming implement the referendum then vote to change it afterwards, I mean you’d think fix it before you do it wrong might be a bit more intelligent
A Scandinavian lady opened her mouth to speak and the noise started against her till the baying mob were shut up by the
host, then when the lady finished speaking she got a huge round of applause for informing the mob how democracy works everywhere else in the world
Ian Blackford tried to explain proportional representation to the mob but sadly it was as usual beyond their ken simply because they’re used to dictatorship and they rather like it that way, easy for them to understand I suppose
Have a look at this chart and see how many Tory Mp’s voted to extend Article 50. I can’t see them changing their mind when faced with a cliff edge no deal.
Be prepared for a long extension or a general election as that’s looking like the most likely options now from where I’m sitting.
Scotland Tonight
Car crash interview with an ex British soldier called Suzanne Fernando who served in Londonderry. All the traits of the Britnat on full display. It’s alright to kill unarmed civilians by shooting them with their rifles. They were just doing their job. The IRA killed people as well. The Good Friday agreement is a disgrace. Blair should be prosecuted for the GF agreement. Persecuting old soldiers.
The British state covered up the truth of this atrocity for decades.
I doubt this ex soldier had ever heard that the Nazis used this argument (only following orders) in the Nuremberg trials but it was rejected. I doubt they were given orders anyway to shoot unarmed civilians.
How the hell do British soldiers never see themselves as an occupying force as they have gone around the world invading and occupying other people’s countries.
Horrendous views held by this women.
Would have been a good idea to include the link, duh.
link to bbc.co.uk
Thepnr
Give the Tbot her due, she did at least appear enthusiastic, as her personality is rigid and lacks empathy, apparently . On seeing that clip of her dancing though, I’d like to change my mine about her being a conscious racist. She appeared to be interacting in a human fashion, so I reckon her racism is accidental. It’s not something she truly believes in but will condone and even advance if it gets her where she wants to get to. She is a Tory who’s personal background is steeped in Anglicanism. She’s an English utilitarian if ever there was a prime candidate.
@CameronB Brodie
After May has been long gone from politics the thing she will be most remembered for is her dancing. That is to be her legacy.
Option 4
….the Royal Baby will be born, we’ll all forget about Brexit, meanwhile the MSM will go all gooey, tree will be union flags everywhere, T May will be asked to be a Godmother along with the Earl of For – faar and we’ll accidentally slip out of the EU to the tune of God Save the Royal Baby and good King Harry and his brother King Billy …. OH!
I was having a nightmare there!!!
Must get up out of this chair and go to bed properly.
Cubby
did you here Michael Fallon’s interview this evening?
He said it was about time we heard about IRA terrorists being re-investigated for the deaths they caused.
They don’t get the fact that one side is an occupying force an aggressor with trained soldiers and weapons and the other side is defending their liberty.
Look at Catalonia peaceful , democratic protestors and trained, armed aggressors trying to suppress liberty.
God help N. Ireland as I have heard talk of WM considering imposing direct rule presently.
The tories want to totally abolish devolution of any sort and N. Ireland is the first section to go. It’s a disgrace that there has been no Stormont assembly for two years throughout this turbulent Brexit process and this investigation of Bloody Sunday and the government’s stance does not bode well for future peace.
Why the BBC cherry picks exactly what they want to beam into every Scottish living room. Why they, as one example, cut off Iain Blackford at every opportunity. If every Scot knew half of what most of us on here know support for Independence would shoot up to around 75% overnight, IMO.
link to mobile.twitter.com
Thepnr
You’re a cruel man. 😉
My gut says that the ERG and DUP, with the usual Lexitters, will vote through the next May “deal”.
We will have to suffer the slower, Thatcher type, destruction of our jobs and industries while they move to elsewhere.
It will take England and Wales nearly two decades to realise what is happening.
Meantime, Scottish voices will be silenced. Dissent will be crushed.
Hey Glasgow, ahm back in oor Catty on Union St music ha ha he he.
Believe in yer Scotland.
Scotland.
Hey there Cactus =)
Have a grand night!
@Cubby says: 14 March, 2019 at 11:19 pm:
” … The Britnat troll HYFUD demonstrating quite clearly that Britnats have the biggest brass necks possible and still be able to walk and talk.”
Nah! HYFUD is just a brainwashed idiot. He, or she, comes away with the most idiotic claims that are so easy to prove as stupidity.
A couple of threads back he, or she, was claiming Spain had said they would veto any Scottish attempts to join the EU and that Scotland would have to join a long queue to get back in.
Now there isn’t a word of truth in those claims. The Spanish PM has officially stated that Spain would not veto A Scottish application and that the Catalan situation was nothing like the Scottish claims of Independence and even explained why.
Not to mention there never has been a queue to get EU Membership granted. If an applicant can meet all EU rules they are in – if they cannot they are not in. and Scotland, having been EU members for as long as there has been an EU meet, and exceed many EU requirements.
Not only that but the EU has no rules, laws or other legal mechanisms to exclude EU citizens against their will. That is why any EU citizen has the right to help from any EU country’s foreign Embassy or Consulates.
They EU is sworn to protect EU citizens and has no way to exclude them against their will. Think on that for a moment – what credibility would the EU have if it did not protect EU citizens? If Scotland claims their protection and her EU citizens are cast out against their expressed will. The EU would have absolutely no credibility both throughout the EU and throughout the entire World, (Except for viewers in England).
The guy that the MSM quoted as a spokesman for Spain was Barrosso and he was actually Portuguese and had no authority to speak for Spain yet the MSM and in particular the BBC quoted him as an authority for both Spain and the EU.
Thing was that he wasn’t even an EU parliamentarian. He was, at the time, the president of the EC and the EC, European Commissioners, are actually the EU’s civil servants – the clue is in their titles , “commissioners”, i.e. paid for civil servants and as such they have absolutely no decision making powers for decision making is the job of the MEPs.
Pay the guy no heed – he is a brainwashed and stupid unionist.
Cheers Ghillie, aye have arrived.
This is a 16+ adult website.
Let us go crazy!
I still reckon the Tbot is a bit of a sociopath. Here’s some Neuroscience and Evolutionary Psychology and stuff, on the links between racism and psychopathy.
The Evolutionary Role of Narcissistic Sociopaths
Trivers’ new evolutionary analysis of narcissistic sociopathy and Trump.
link to psychologytoday.com
Is There a Relationship Between Psychopathic Traits and Racism?
link to researchgate.net
Racism’s Cognitive Toll
link to psychologicalscience.org
Apathetic Racism Theory: a Neurosociological Study of How Moral Emotions Perpetuate Inequality
link to ir.uiowa.edu
Love Love Love… Love Love like
Love love yerself
Scotland
AuldGrannie, they’ll need to vote it through, the EUs new tax stuff kicks in from April.
I think a 4th scenario has a chance of happening:
1 May’s deal is rejected again.
2 EU rejects long term extension.
3 May’s deal is rejected for a fourth time.
4 EU rejects what would need now to be a long term extension.
5 May refuses to revoke article 50.
6 An emergency vote is forced before 29th
7 Article 50 is revoked by the house
8 Back to square one.
Get and be ready for Scotland.
NOW is always oor time.
Fuck the cunt!
Meg. IRA – please remember that they murdered in the main Irish people man, woman, child and the unborn. Kneecapped their own supporters. Like the UDa they were in part drug and gang cartels. My fight for freedom is through the ballot box
One does not normally default to cunt…
But time both calls and beckons.
Fuck yeah!
Cactus. This is an over 16 site? Yet, your behaviour is so infantile.
Howde Hamish…
And aye will always LOVE you.
Ahm ra infant…
Ah’ll take that one Hamish yer hunner.
You could be a groovy cool.
Tae learn.
Ah do not give a CUNT no more…
Whom’eth be offended.
Try aye.
Time for a bit of Cognitive and Linguistic science?
link to glossa-journal.org
Why language really is not a communication system: a cognitive view of language evolution
link to ncbi.nlm.nih.gov
Language and Cognition
link to bu.edu
The cognitive science behind words that work – a one day workshop
link to eventbrite.co.uk
P.S. “Science”; does to Tories what salt does to slugs. 😉
Be things as they may…
We are SO much better than them an awe that…
Rammstein playin like.
Cubby
I’m guessing, but you’ve never had much contact with the army, or it’s structure?
Soldiers are made. Broken, then remoulded to operate as part of the machine. To obey orders, like them or not. And to fight for your new mates.
There’s a direct, unequivocal chain of command, and a reciprocal line of responsibility.
They were given orders to fire, as the authorities were in a flap about civil unrest (not the march!).
The MoD (under Cabinet control), chose to put an elite regiment of killers on crowd control duties !
We are at the candle of Hope Street..
Pakora courtesy of Cookies.
Nice.
These seem appropriate. This internet thing is a wonder. Science, eh?
link to frontiersin.org
The Psychology of Risk and its Role in
link to tandfonline.com
Cognitive Training for Military Application: a Review of the Literature and Practical Guide
link to link.springer.com
Identifying British Army infantry recruit population characteristics using biographical data
link to academic.oup.com
Doh!
The Psychology of Risk and its Role in Military Decision?Making
A back-up squadron of flying pigs was spotted circling the Forth Bridges 😉
A big howde tae ye me Hamish100…
Ahm gonna try the Riverboat Casino for FUN, Glasgow.
That is… if they let me in.
Aye feel good.
As does iScotland.
re. the psychology of risk and Brexit. Some insight into why it’s harder to motive with a carrot than with a stick. You’ve got to love irony if you live in Scotland.
link to psychologytoday.com
Brexit and the psychology of loss
link to managers.org.uk
No Pause for Thought? Brexit, Bias and Political Manipulation
The psychology of Brexit and contemporary politics, in a series of articles by Volker Patent. In this first article, we look at how the language of Brexit encourages the formation of political cliques.
link to open.edu
Brexit, psychology and human rights
link to efpa.eu
Here Dixie…
Check this out if yer lookin’ in and out.
Mad Martin is here, fuck…
OT
Mmm, I enjoyed that elsewhere, a post in one of my hunting grounds. A shot across the bows, so to speak, and the irony is a good QC (briefed of course by RP) could make a substatntial case for it.
Zebedee says. Zzzzeb
Ahm watching gamblers gambling.
Ah’ve PLAYed mah turn.
Hamish kens like…
As does KenD.
EXCELLENT! Yes, other commenters, news and bloggers have ENTIRELY missed the point on this.
May has even tried to pull a fast one, the vote to take ‘No Deal’ off the table was SPECIFICALLY for a 29th March exit, and does NOT apply to a withdrawal on any other date.
Politicians will NEVER volunteer to put themselves out of office (ie government) an opposition MIGHT push for a GE but then, only if they are sure to win. The love nothing more, and nothing else, but power itself..
Messy Brexit in June, just as Parliament breaks for summer. Absolutely PERFECT!!
Not so much Plan A as the emergency back up, if all else fails Plan Z. I say ‘Plan’ but as we all know politicians don’t ‘Plan’ anything. civil Servants do that kind of thing, politicians make the mess for CS to clear up…
My take-away from the final Commons vote on March 14, 2019 is that there’s now 202 MPs on record as having voted for war between Eire and Northern Ireland.
Ahm sitting down by oor riverside mainland Scotland and attachments… down by where The Riverbus used to go. The tide is high as ahm aye.
Oor River Clyde is fucking bonnie.
Fuck May.
Oor River Clyde is blowing up stream (high tide)
We are Glasgow like.
We be Scotland.
Chilling at the bus stop at Bridge St baby underground.
Tommorow knows as does NOW.
Et aujourdhui.
Taxi oui.
Fuck Westminster…
Love Scotland.
That is all.
@skydiver…
Where are ye… Come back…
Everybuddy knows.
Ahm on the 57 bus back skydiver, to return…
Tell me awe aboot ye..
Aye want to know.
Wings ’19 comin’.
All da 4’s.
That’s me aff ra 57 Glasgow bus groovy cools.
Every journey has a destination.
HOME is imminent.
One is HOME.
Fuck Vince Cable.
He’s a nobody.
He’s an outis.
Looking at what Guy Verhofstadt is saying, I get the clear understanding that he equates an extension to Article 50 with a unified cross party representation from Westminster which represents the settled and stable will of the UK, and demonstrates a degree of contrition and flexibility appropriate to the severity of its imperillment.
Frankly, the chances of Westminster finding a way to end its bickering and present such a congestive interface for Europe to interact with seems beyond all possibility. The imminent danger of crashing out with no deal and no extension is being sidelined with no sign of an end to the delusional hubris of UK politicians.
14 days to save Scotland from disaster.
Put away your people’s vote, put away your IndyRef2, put away your YES campaign, put away your campaign leaflets. There is no time left. Scotland needs an emergency, Constitutionally led initiative to affirm that Scotland is a Nation where the people are Sovereign, and those sovereign people chose to stay in the EU. We must declare Scotland’s Sovereignty to be absolute and inalienable, and sacrosanct. ONLY Scotland can elect to remove itself from Europe, and Scotland has never elected to do any such thing. Brexit is colonial subjugation contrary to International Law.
Congestive??? I’m quite sure I typed cohesive…
Morning Breeks…
Congestive et cohesive.
Same thing, different day.
Indeed dude, cheers.
“What you gonna do, without water.
What you gonna do, aint no bread.
What you gonna do, over summer.
Can you help to heal these visions from my head…”
Circa NOW ’19.
“As summer ends, the night descends, ahn ahm sittin’ here without you, ah can’t rewind or seem to find somebuddy else like you… SO take ah shot of me, make a lot of me cause baby you know ah Love you good, it’s funny how aye be, these things that others see, but ahm still self misunderstood…
And that aint a crime”
To runaway.
Aye thought aye would PLAY this one again… FOR YOU:
link to youtube.com
Scott is gone, who’s left?
What the fucking hell like NOW?!
NOW is the time to get serious iScotland…
Do you wannabe YOU?
Every time…
Is NOW.
Cactus
Seek help. Boring repetive posts are just that. Boring.Zzzzxz
Dedication to Wings’ early risers that aye know of:
link to youtube.com
Ghillie, Petra, Ken500, Breeks, Macart, Dorothy…
Ahm giving it big with respectos xx.
Awe Hamish100, ah was about to give you a shout out 2…
What did aye do 2 offend ye dude like.
Nana, can ye sort Hamish oot?
Morning Cactus! and thank you for good old Fleetwood Mac.
I understand BIG love for Scotland!
🙂
Dorothy.
Xx.
Links
link to gov.scot
The Tories have made the UK parliament a laughing stock and Labour have confirmed their status as the spineless midwives of Brexit. What a shambles that is letting down Scotland and the entire UK. Scotland must now get on- our interests are not served by this Westminster cabal.
video
link to twitter.com
Mhairi Black speech on article 50
video
link to twitter.com
link to scotgoespop.blogspot.com
link to weegingerdug.wordpress.com
SNP release a list of 67 ways the Highland economy could be hurt by Brexit
link to archive.is
Glasgow named in top ten best cities in the world by Time Out magazine
link to archive.is
“The Labour party and the Tory party are in absolute chaos. They cannot sort this – it needs to go back to the people”. SNP MP @drewhendrySNP speaking to #TheNine after MPs voted overwhelmingly to delay #Brexit
video
link to twitter.com
“If at first you don’t succeed….”
link to facebook.com
link to businessforscotland.com
link to centreonconstitutionalchange.ac.uk
link to bylinetimes.com
Frances Meehan, whose brother was killed by security forces in Northern Ireland in 1980, tells #cblive about her meeting with Northern Secretary Karen Bradley
link to twitter.com
link to buzzfeed.com
No-deal Brexit: Cardiff schools told to stockpile food
link to archive.is
link to bloomberg.com
1. Following two successive votes rejecting the draft withdrawal agreement (DWA) (432-202 against and 391-242 against) and this evening’s vote (321-278) to reject any no deal Brexit, here is a personal reflection/contribution on possible extensions of time under Article 50 TEU.
link to twitter.com
Shell defends 126% rise in chief executive’s pay awards
link to archive.is
link to irishnews.com
Mr Fox doesn’t explicitly mention this, but this is a ‘rollover’ treaty, continuing an existing free trade agreement between the EU and these two States.
link to twitter.com
Exclusive The Geoffrey Cox legal advice that Theresa May hopes will save her Brexit deal
link to twitter.com
link to politicshome.com
link to eulawanalysis.blogspot.com
Britain pleads to extend Article 50: This is one of our darkest hours
link to archive.is
Rev explains it…
Ditto.
link to politico.eu
Immigration removals stopped by injunction
link to archive.is
Excellent essay
The United Kingdom always had one leg in the EU and one outside. That served a purpose: they saw things that the Dutch or French wouldn’t notice, Caroline de Gruyter writes. But they couldn’t get out of that outsider role anymore. Now many in Brussels want them to go.
link to archive.is
link to eureporter.co
Irish PM Leo Varadkar and his partner, Matt Barrett meeting with a homophobic Mike Pence today.
link to twitter.com
Apt cartoon on the Brexit mess
link to twitter.com
1. Day 9 of Westminster hearings at #CSAinquiry – my round-up in 20 tweets.
link to twitter.com
Early appointment to get to so that’s all for today
Mornin’ Nana, many kettles be at the ready of the NOW xx
This one is especially for you Dorothy girly xx:
link to youtube.com
Indy is gonna be bigger than a landslide.
Morning Nana ! The more I learn about the British Empire the more sickened I become . All we have ever done as the BE appears to be kill , imprison , decide who is a terrorist / insurgent , rape and pillage then give ourselves a halo and pat ourselves on the back.
Astonishing PR that the UK thinks it can get away with for all time.
Cactus , thank you – I love it!
Nana , Cactus I left a response to you both but I must have used a banned word as I am now in moderation.
Loved the song Cactus – I know that wasn’t a banned comment .
My response to Nana concerned the behaviour of the
clodhopping ,thieving , bullying British Empire and may have contained a naughty word.
Question… Why does Brexit need to go back to the people in Scotland?
Answer… It doesn’t. It’s only England and Wales who need change their minds, and that makes a People’s Vote a UK wide campaign that’s run one way in Scotland and a different way south of the Border. Scotland lumbered with a reluctant UK. Plus ca change.
Michel Barnier. Nous exigeons une reconnaissance souveraine pour l’Ecosse. Maintenant.
Do it again.
This is like the illegal war. Just as bad. Getting legal adive changed so the Westminster hooligans can destroy the world. May and the Tories are trying to get advice of illegality changed to legal -(illegally) to push a policy through that will destroy the UK and the world economy. Push through by illegal methods and illegal outcome. Next the decision will be placed under the Official Secrets Act. To hide their criminality,
The Tories and the rest were warned whst would happen if they went ahead with a ridiculous EU Ref. The damage they are doing the economy is contemptible, unneccesary and illogical.
How this Westminster Gov can continue after so many defeats and still try to introduce the same rejected policy is illegal and illogical. Criminal. They just haven’t go a clue. They are ruining people’s lives and getting away with murder. A cabel of complete igoramiuses. The arrogance, conceit and incompetence for the world to see. The biggest liars in the world lining their pockets on other people’s misery. They should hang their heads in shame. Most of them should be in jail. If there was any justice. The Westminster unionists are hideous people. How can they continue this way.
Question… Why does Brexit need to go back to the people in Scotland?
Answer… It doesn’t. We should respect England’s sovereign right leave Europe and they should respect our sovereign right not to.
This is a song about your fucking mother…:
link to youtube.com
Axl knows.
OT
Catching up with LibDem revelations.
David Steel ignores child abuse and then recommends abuser for Knighthood.
This for me demonstrates the utter corrupting influence of the Westminster Establishment.
Or BritNat Unionism attracts people without a soul to politics.
Here’s another GNRFNR for ye Westminster ye:
link to youtube.com
May is a rocket.
Sorry, I posted this on the previous thread. I didn’t notice we had moved on so quickly!
Clootie says:
15 March, 2019 at 8:13 am
The entire fiasco that has been choreographed for over 3 years to take us to a hard Brexit and blame Europe. This included making full use of the Labour leaders incompetence and inability to make a decision.
Europe (like Scotland) wants to move on but the little englanders want an Empire to rule. Aircraft Carriers, WMD and long range nuclear submarines that let them pretend they are powerful and to be respected. Very much like their DUP buddies the still look to the past instead of the future.
The EU is not perfect but they are trying to make it work. The U.K. Media has painted a very negative image of the EU for over 40 years. This was also part of the long term planning ” build a negative image of the EU and lock it in”.
We are returning to the days of “The Greenwich Meridian” the line through London that ensures London is at the centre of every map. It was once the Rose Line through Paris……but how dare those frogs when with our bigger Navy we are the centre of the Universe. They are not nationalists at all!
Robert Peffers I suggest you look at the latest polls for the Spanish general election next month which suggests the current Spanish PM will fail to win and be replaced by a new conservative and nationalist Spanish government of the PP, Citizens and the hard right, fiercely pro Spanish unity and fiercely anti Catalan independence Vox Party. Vox in particular will stop anything that could encourage Catalan independence
Theresa May and her government could be heading for a ‘breakdown’ HYUFD:
link to youtube.com
How ye doin’ marnin’ stranger?
@ Hyfud.
Your comment is speculation not fact.
@Hyfud,
Will that include genocide of Catalonia? Because that’s the only way to obliterate the desire for Independence mate.
You can’t kill ideas.
There is a strong Irish lobby in the US Congress. A strong Irish lobby which supports the Republic. A committee which lobbies for trade. Rejects the British States actions in Ireland, A large Irish disporia.. Many voters of Irish decent. The Kennedy’s were Irish Catholics descent. Obama visited Ireland. Obama’s mother was quite interesting. Lived all over the world.
Many US tourists come to the Irish Republic as their base when they come to Europe. Fly into Dublin. The flights are cheaper and quicker. Many (US) companies are based there for access to the EU markets. Etc. 500Million+. Irish Republic has a lower cost for visitors. A high standard of living but at lower cost. Dublin is hooching. A really interesting City full of history. Scenic like Scotland. Irish ‘tiger’ has major growth. Even punt pegged to the pound. Until 1997. Irish Repubkic joined the Euro. No big deal and quite successfully. It saves red tape, money exchange and business costs.
Scotland like Ireland has a large diaspora in the US and around the world (40 million). People who had to migrate because of Westminster’s criminal, cruel and illegal actions. Just as they are treating migrants today, They are illegally deporting people from Scotland/UK in the most callous way. Totally unneccessary and illegally. The Westminster unionists have illegally driven people out of Scotland and taken all of Scotland’s resources and squandered them illegally.
Scotland’s resource’s are the people and they have been driven away by Westminster illegally, causing massive suffering, The same in Ireland. Criiminal actions from a criminal Westminster unionist Gov. Cruel beyond belief. Westminster has had to apologise so many times but just keeps doing it. Repeats the same actions over and over hoping for a different outcome, Beyond ignorant. Groundhog Day. Some people never learn.
The interaction with Trump/Ireland will be interesting. Golf courses/development. A United front to exchange opinion. Can’t offend voters of Irish descent. A huge lobby. The only thing Trump has not done is started a WW, yet. Even he is not daft enough.
Inn keeping wae the theme HYUFD:
link to youtube.com
Their politicians are arse.
Next song HYUFD…
link to youtube.com
The above is yer possible future.
You like?
One more HYUFD dude…
link to youtube.com
“Ah want a drug induced state of unconsciousness, SO coma come on.”
Correct me if I’m wrong. Did most Scots MP’s vote for a second EU referendum yesterday?
If so why did none of the MSM pick up on it? Oh aye sorry. Stupid question.
Ian Blackford on QT last night: “The people of Scotland will not be dragged out of Europe against our will. We voted to remain and we will be remaining a European country” To peals of laughter from JHB and a quip from Fiona Bruce along the lines of “How will you manage that?” but no time for Ian’s response as she swiftly moved on.
Defo@2.07pm
You are correct in your assumption. No military personal contact by myself only a nephew who served in the navy to see the world.
Soldiers are human beings and have an obligation to still know right from wrong.
If Bloody Sunday is condoned it means it can happen again. I do not absolve the British state of responsibility for the events or the subsequent cover up. Shooting unarmed civilians is something the British government has condemned throughout the world when it has happened in other countries. Hypocrites.
I’ve been saying since late on Monday night TM is going for a no-deal Brexit on 29th March. No question about it.
She’s ignoring the parliamentary votes this week (has she significantly changed her deal, NO, has she brought back the legislation to amend it to rule out no-deal, NO).
And she knows she can’t scare the ERG into voting for her deal with the threat of a long drawn out extension if they don’t vote for her deal.
She created the hostile environment for immigrants when she was Home Secretary now she wants a hostile environment for the rest of us!
I want to convey my disgust at the idiots who allegedly threatened a Conservative worker for Luke Graham MP. If this is true, then congratulations, idiots, you’ve probably just helped the Tories win that seat in the next election. And probably helped secure a No vote in that area for Indyref2.
What’s your plans for today… People of Scotland?
Whistle if you are able:
link to youtube.com
YOU are the above, Scotland.
Much scattergun frustration among nationalists in Scotland that our country is marginalised and the SNP seemingly ineffective.
The strategy, if such exists, of our leaving of the Scoto-English union needs to be rethought. We could do with less talk, less tweets, less fantasy, less the Party can do no wrong. The hard reality of the resilience of the British state and its apparatus, even in crisis, has to be recognised. The great Brexit bounce has not materialised.
Much is being left to chance. England’s troubles are causing us trouble. Why? Could it be that the SNP has taken its eye off the independence ball and doesn’t know where to locate it?
Breeks@5.05.
Put away IndyRef2 and the Yes Campaign? Au contraire, mon ami. I think Wull has the rights of it in his excellent post earlier.
I have said on here for some time that SNP MPs telling the world that Scotland will remain in the EU is no idle boast. Ian Blackford brilliantly made the same point on QT last night (l made an exception of watching it).
This policy carries huge meaning: namely Scotland’s sovereign wish to remain in the EU must stand. That means we are going to fight. Very soon. And we will have Europe’s tacit – perhaps even overt support.
Perhaps within days, the story will all be about Scotland. Nicola Sturgeon will make a declaration detailing how our country has been ignored, mocked and insulted – and why we must seek our own path on this earth or face the lingering death of the eternally subjugated. Aux armes, citoyens!
This is a song about yer never used to love yer fucking UK:
link to youtube.com
With compliments.
Weird the arguments used to Brexit the EU. They totally apply to Independence for Scotland (in EU) but will make them poorer but Scotland better off. A bunch of imbeciles.
Labour and Corbyn are in complete disarray. Many of them Brexiteers are voting to save their jobs rather than save the economy. No convictions, just plain selfish. Like they could not find something better to do. Corbyn stayed in a Party with which every major decision he disagreed. Instead of going off and doing something useful. Still useless.
Anti EU QT came from London. Quite outraged people. London S/E voted to Remain. QT fiddling the audience numbers, again.
Aldo_macb. I smell sh**e here. A bit like like a football hooligan wearing another clubs football Jersey.
Especially the part where they allegedly said,they would be hung in an independent Scotland, yeah right.
@Aldo_macb
Hmmmm! Assuming the miscreants were what they loudly and so theatrically claimed to be.
Re Bloody Sunday. For anyone interested in the timeline, this seems comprehensive … link to tinyurl.com
Multiple wrongs never make right and a spiral of retaliatory violent just gets into a loop.
For me, what stands out is the initial heavy handedness of UK/NI authorities on civil rights protests. In the early days there seemed a big overlap in the activities of police and thugs!
Golfnut It is based on polls, Bob Mack Vox made the Popular Party look moderate. If they end up in Government the Spanish Civil Guard will likely be sent to Catalonia with orders to use any means at their disposal to crush Catalan separatism most likely
May is tied up, but she aint pretty:
link to youtube.com
NB This is The Perils Of Rock N’ Roll Decadence
Ken500 Scotland sends even more of its exports to England as a percentage than the UK sends to the EU
The best time to have an IndyRef is when it can be won. It is better not to fight a campaign on two fronts or in the winter/ summer holidays. People away. Or two campaigns could be lost. Spread too thin Prioritise each campaign. GE another EURef could come soon and get in the way. The UK Gov is on a State of collapse. It can’t go on like this. Support for Indepence continues rising. The appalling Westminster shambles and the Demographics. It just needs a small percentage swing. Better to get it. To win. The SNP will know when to move. They have not let Scotland down yet. Like minded, concerned people. They need all the help they can get,
If you want the bells frae hell… you gottem 925’ers:
link to youtube.com
Freedom always.
@HYUFD
Do not get the connexion between Scottish exports to England and the desire for restored sovereignty and independence. Such an argument might well have kept virtually all of the imperial colonies in perpetual thraldom, including India.
@Aldo_macb – we need to find out what actually happened.
Luke Graham won his seat after a smear campaign against Tasmina Ahmed-Sheikh. It was two years before the actual case was dealt with and it appears that there was much smoke and very little fire.
Also, the BBC report doesn’t say which constituency office was involved. If it was the Alloa office, that is where a Britain First demonstration was organised some time ago. Completely out of keeping with the area but I don’t remember the detail. Obviously there are many odd forces at work in Ochil and South Perthshire.
Have the tories suddenly stopped referring to the snp as
the nationalist party?
I have heard a few of them say the scottish national party
in recent days.
That seems new.
I wonder why…
I see poor old Duncan is still going with the SNP have no mandate because they polled less than 50% of the electorate. I can only believe he now wants all Westminster legislation rescinded that post dates any party not receiving over 50% at a general election (this was some time ago).
Somehow I feel he thought the Tony Blair 37% win was an overwhelming mandate. Because I suspect he believes in the Westminster system of seats, unless of course these seats have a majority of SNP MP’s representing Scotland, then it’s back to majority of voters. The hypocrisy is just outstanding.
Take me to Holy Mecca…
link to youtube.com
THIS lead singer died from a motorcycle related accident.
If you didn’t laugh you would cry at the antics of both the Tories and Labour parties at Westminster on Brexit.
They couldn’t negotiate their way out of a wet paper bag.
I suspect a no deal Brexit could happen accidently, though I have read that the DUP are now claiming they are moving nearer to supporting May’s deal
There is a problem in all of this as well for Labour’s Corbyn, he is on record as stating the EU wouldn’t allow him to renationalise privatised services and that remaining in the EU would make us rule takers not rule givers
As he portrays himself to be a man of principle, how could he possibly, with any credibility, now make a U-Turn and support remaining in the EU?
HYUFD – and England exports MUCH more to Scotland that vice versa…..English businesses will just drop a huge market????? And how w thoulde EU look upon an England that stops trading with an Independent Scotland in the EU? Time to grow up and widen the view!
HYUFD – and England exports MUCH more to Scotland than vice versa…..English businesses will just drop a huge market????? And how would the EU look upon an England desperate for trade that stops trading with an Independent Scotland in the EU? Time to grow up and widen the view!
@Capella
I believe it was Graham’s Alloa office.
I have very serious doubts about the whole thing. It has to be assessed against a background of Tory habitual lying. Any CCTV? Images captured on mobile phone? Independent witnesses? Police called immediately? And if the incident occurred as described, it is just as likely to be false flag.
Perhaps it actually was extreme anti Tory threatening behaviour. In which case I hope the police catch the perpetrators. Unlike the Tories, we want to be democratic and law abiding.
Cubby
“Soldiers are human beings and have an obligation to still know right from wrong.”
Can’t disagree with that.
The cruelty (then) of basic training was partly to overcome natural revulsion to what’s being asked of you.
Also, and not excusing…In this instance, the British soldiers would have seen the community as the ‘other’. The enemy, making it far easier to overcome instinct.
Knowing the perfidy of the State, i wouldn’t be surprised to find out that there were planted shooters in/around the area.
Rules of engagement- ‘returning’ fire.
Bloody Sunday was, imho, a deliberate act by the British State, and what do we have here?
General’s and politician’s being held to account?
That’s not how their game works!
Some people just need To Learn to SO Love again…
That’s when we begin to understand..
Our Scotland.
Terrible events in New Zealand. Those who encourage extremism, violence, racism, xenophobia, anti Islamic behaviour have to also shoulder blame as well as direct perpetrators.
Very often, politicians reveal what they are going to do, by saying that (whatever it is) is what their opponents are doing. The never-failing Scottish example is that the unionist parties always say that the SNP are obsessed with independence, to the exclusion of taking a proper and responsible approach to the specific Scottish political and social problems. Well, as we know, the true position is the mirror image of this — Scottish Tories have very little general interest in Scottish politics beyond the ‘defence of the union’.
At present, no interview with a Westminster Tory is complete until he or she has produced the one-liner about how the EU never move until the last possible moment. ‘Everything has to be turned into a last-minute, all-nighter crisis by these people’ is the implication.
So I think you are wrong to rule out option 1: particularly since those Tories also expect that even after we’ve left the EU on Mrs May’s terms, they will still be able to continue their particular fight into the ‘transition period’ and beyond.
PS: If the Scots won’t vote for independence now, they never will: this is not a value judgement, but an opinion about the facts………
@CameronB Brodie says:
15 March, 2019 at 1:04 am
I still reckon the Tbot is a bit of a sociopath.
I recently saw a TV political discussion where something like this was said by someone (just a brief glance at telly, surprised at hearing something I’d agree with) though maybe not as strong a word as ‘socipath’. Lacking empathy maybe.
Their point was this Brexit mess needs someone in charge who is capable of reaching across political divides (within and across parties) to form agreements so that some sane kind of deal can be made. Unfortunately May is psychologically incapable of this having no empathy and being totally inflexible in her personality.
Of course what wasn’t said was that you also have to throw in basic incompetence and the fact she doesn’t give a damn about what happens to the country and you have someone who is incapable of sorting things out. Good at stabbing folk in the back though, the one thing you can say members of the government are any good at.
@ Galamcennalath – the BBC also says that “The incident came on the night MPs voted to reject a no-deal Brexit under any circumstances.”
As we all know, any self respecting YES supporter was glued to their screen at that time watching events in HoC.
But the point is that whatever the truth of Luke Graham’s allegations, we expect false flags and smear campaigns to escalate. The more the Tories cry wolf, the less inclined everyone is to believe them.
England will be short of higher priced goods. Scotland will just export premium quality goods elsewhere. Instead of losing valued markets in the EU and bsnkrupcy from foreign imported goods ruining UK markets. Like England/Wales destroying their economy.
Scotland will just export more elsewhere – Europe/world etc. There will be less exported to England because of less demand because of tariffs. Scotland holds the upper hand premium goods Exports all over the EU and the world. There might be less demand in England because of higher tariffs and cheap imports ruining the English/Wales economy. Scottish premium goods already get exported all over. They are in high demand. There are markets for them. There will be shortages in England/Wales. Bankruptcy.
Scotland already benefits from ECB and EU grants investment. Renewables etc. Scotlland coukd have a major advantage trade in CCS and renewables with Europe. The EU costs Scotland nothing and brings benefit, Westminster takes £Billions from Scotland and squanders it. Even with less exports to England/Wales Scotland would gain in other ways and be more prosperous. The goods would go to other markets. England/Wales need Scottish exports or they will go without or pay higher prices. Especially for fuel and energy. Oil gets exported world wide according to price. Those who can afford to pay. It works both ways Scotlabd would buy cheaper goods elsewhere from England/Wales because of higher England/Wales tariffs. Destined and going into the EU. Swings and roundabout.
Scotland would benefit and be £Billions better off. Westminster would not be syphonig £Billions off. The Barnett Formula, Get rid of that Scotland would be booming. Not being illegally derived off income. The gain would be more than any (so called) trade losses. Westminster disinformation. Scotland’s premium products can hold their own EU/worldwide. They already do without Westminster gross interference in the Scottish economy. Trying to drag Scotland down with them in their idiocy. Brexit What’s new? They have been doing it for centuries of incompatibility. No democracy.
Scotland has a much better balance of trade deficit than the rest of the UK. That would continue. Scotland would be in surplus. Scotland would benefit without Westminster gross interference and continual mismanagement of the economy. Brexit another example. Westminster Illegal wars, tax evasion and financial fraud has cost Scotland dear. £Billions of mismanagement. Scotland would just export more goods elsewhere, than it’s nearest neughbour. More goods would go to the next nearest biggest market the EU and the rest of the world. They already do. 50/50. It would just increase. Westminster fiddles the figures. Disinformation, They can’t count or read a balance sheet.
If Scotland gets better off. So does the rest of Britain, especially the North. A more balance economy overall. The wealth spread more evenly,. The North/South divide in decline,
Labour’s reason for not backing Peoples Vote – ‘Now is Not The Time’.
Pleases me anyway, I don’t want a Peoples Vote, I want an Independence Vote. It’s not my policy to interfere in another countries decision.
@HYUFD says: 15 March, 2019 at 8:22 am:
” … Robert Peffers I suggest you look at the latest polls for the Spanish general election next month.”
What the hell has that got to do with it, HYUFD?
Nothing will alter the facts. First of all Spain has a very different written constitution from the United Kingdom and that means there can be no comparison between the two states.
Spain is legally a unified country and the United Kingdom is legally, and always has been exactly what it’s name says it is, a two partner united kingdom. Which is why it is called, The United Kingdom.
Spain is composed of many semi-autonomous regions while the United Kingdom is legally composed of only two, equally sovereign, independent kingdoms. The United Kingdom is NOT a country but Spain is a country. No matter how many times you call the United Kingdom a country it will not make it legally so.
There simply cannot be any comparison between these two EU member states because they are legally different.
Secondly Spain would be mad to ban itself from fishing Scottish fishing grounds as Spain’s economy is largely dependent upon fishing in Scottish waters and if Scotland is outside the EU then Spain is outside the Scottish fishing grounds but would also be out of the Kingdom of England fishing grounds as the UK is
BrUKexiting.With both Scotland and the Kingdom of England out of the EU the other Spanish big industry – tourism – will no longer have tourists from the former UK countries because of the removal of freedom of movement and problems with the freedom of cash movement.
No Spanish government is going to put itself in the position of cutting off its nose to spite its face. Like your unionist pals in Westminster you are living a dream that is really a nightmare. You keep spouting these idiocies as if they were true but no one but idiots would believe your lies.
Quite simply there is no comparison between the Scottish claim of ending the UK and Spain’s claim that Catalonia is an integral part of Spain because it is. Which, of course does not make Spain’s actions against the Catalans legal or right because of the international legal acceptance of the Human Rights Law that an identifiable group of people have the legal right of Self Determination. Which, BTW, both Spain and Westminster are signed up to both individually and as EU and United Nations member states.
As usual you brainlessly parrot Westminster mantras and have no conception of the legal truth of these matters.
@Frank Waring.
An SNP obsessed with independence…OMG, how I wish that were so! Unstead we have had the ‘save the UK from Brexit’ theme. Why should nationalists care about the UK? Here was an opportunity to make a political point about the Scottish difference not an occasion to get into bed with Unionists.
We’ve not blown it quite yet, but unless something awesomely monumental is unveiled by the leadership we may well have. Post Brexit Scotland will resume its normal, submissive, recumbant, provincial posture. There will be recriminations, for there is nothing like the Scots for whinging over lost opportunities they were affraid to take. Getting independence was never going to be a constitutional walk in the park. In that respect at least I do hope the scales are beginning to fall from the national eyes.
jfngw says:
That’s exactly how I feel about it. England voted to leave the EU, that decision should be honoured and they should get on with it.
For me, the big elephant which has always been in the room is that if England wants to Leave, and other countries want to stay, then the UK is finished.
TMay herself knew this. She’s on record from before EURef as saying NI would need a special deal keeping it close to the single market. A special deal in NI inevitably splitting the UK. The blinkered Brexiteers somehow felt with their entitlement and exceptionalism that somehow something different would happen.
Once the reality became blindly obvious (but never openly highlighted) it became a priority to keep the UK together, then England’s EU exit became compromised.
Everything could be solved so simply. Ireland needs a reunification vote, Scotland needs an Indy vote, and England needs to take its own path. If others chose to follow, then that is literally their democratic choice.
Ferret article about the far right group who demonstrated in Alloa in 2017. Why Alloa? No idea. But clearly we need to be aware of what is being stirred up.
link to theferret.scot
‘BBC accused of deliberately failing Scotland as SNP launch complaints.’
link to thenational.scot
Heart of Galloway says:
15 March, 2019 at 9:13 am
Breeks@5.05.
Put away IndyRef2 and the Yes Campaign? Au contraire, mon ami. I think Wull has the rights of it in his excellent post earlier…
I agree, Wull does put a degree of finesse on how we go about it, but we are still in the same two week time frame to make ourselves safe, and with a great deal to do. I fear people are a little complacent about the change of status which occurs when the deadline expires. The world changes in that instant and so do our options.
By way of compromise, devils advocate, and kite flying, if people are afraid of the raw Sovereignty approach, might I make the suggestion that Holyrood seeks its own unilateral extension of time from Europe in order to carry out a ratification plebiscite / IndyRef2 safe in the knowledge we are staying under the EU’s umbrella and jurisdiction of the ECJ.
Thus we can hopefully secure recognition and International Personality in the eyes of Europe, clip the wings of Westminster when it comes to Scottish Sovereignty, take all the heat out of Brexit and the ticking clock, and put Scotland in an altogether different place from the rest of the UK.
That would certainly wrong foot the BBC and Unionist media and their anti-European agenda.
Devils advocate I repeat. Personally, I’d go for the jugular. We have all the time in the world to negotiate and compromise, even amongst ourselves, when we are an independent sovereign Nation… and a rich one at that.
@ Hyfud.
I’m struggling to connect your speculation regarding Spain with Scotland dissolving the political union with England. Unless of course your intention is to intimidate and threaten Scotland.
More Scottish goods would just go to the EU/world by direct ferry or airplane. By passing former English/Wales/UK markets. More goods would be imported to Scotland by direct ferry or airplane by passing former rest of the UK market sources. They already do. The value of exports quoted in not profit ie profit a smaller percentage with costs off. Still investment. Goods can be sold/exported at a loss. Depending on market/interest rate changes. Unpredictable calculations.
In spite of the BBC’s efforts to deny him what dear old Maggie called: “the oxygen of publicity” Ian Blackford has played a blinder of late.
He was particularly effective on QT last night, despite the sneering efforts of that triple-barrelled Hardly-Brilliant wummin, getting some generous applause from the audience.
But, what I have noticed is, there appears to be less “white noise” int he background when he speaks in the Chamber. The other MPs are starting to listen to him – alwasy the sign of a polished performer in that bear pit. He had difficult models to follow, in Wee Ek abd Big Angus, but, he is growing into the job.
Such a pity for the HoC that Mhairi Black will not be there too-long – Independence will take her away – but, she too could, I believe, have developed into a real HoC star.
Still, she will be a major force in Holyrood post-Independence.
O/T
The BBC has always paid the minimum of attention to the SNP at PMQs, people were surprised at how good Angus Robertson was when they actually got to hear him. However, this latest ignoring of Ian Blackford’s speeches is on a new level.
I wonder if it is because he is reinforcing the mandate at every opportunity? Also, he tells the House that Scotland is watching, Scotland can see how its representatives are treated and the BBC can’t be having that. Propaganda is fine one way only.
Guys, this HYFUD character is a failed Tory councillor who lives in England and a troll on the FMs Twitter, he’s irrelevant to anything and just spends his time trolling Scotland
All those folks who commended Attorney General Geoffrey Cox for standing by his principles and not caving in to pressure from the Government… I hope you kept the receipt.
What an obnoxious low life.
The Scottish Government, on behalf of the majority of the Scottish people, giving a Scottish Legal Document repealing the Treaty of Union between the country of Scotland and the country of England. No reason has to be given.
Missed out at the end, to the Westminster Parliament.
Dr Jim No if I troll I troll Nats not Scots who voted to stay in the UK in 2014, standing again in May and might get in on the town council list
Abulhaq India was not England’s neighbour
@HYUFD
Well, good luck in May then, it may give you something useful to do with your time.
By the way your trolling is poor, it almost has blue flashing lights.
I usually ignore the trolls but I was at a loose end yesterday and just decided amuse myself. Same today just biding some time before I visit my daughter.
The Irsh Times has a video of the First Dail in Dublin. Well worth your time to watch and relevant to our own Cause. Sovereignty of the People not the Crown, A well understood International dimension to recognition.
Link
link to irishtimes.com
Enjoy.
Easter would be a good place to start the Indyref 2 ball rolling. Very symbolic, Easter Monday would be perfect.
The parallel the symbolism taken from christianity, Scotland once again rising from the dead UK will give and given the additional flavours of the Easter Rising in the now Republic of Ireland and the timing of the Good Friday Agreement.
The Romans warned us over 2000 years ago to beware the Ides of March.
Looking at the sheer incompetence/deliberate muddying of the waters by both Tory and Labour front benches, it was the decisions made in the run up to the Ides of March that will finally put an end to the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland.
My hopes that Scottish Independence and Irish Reunification will happen, are the only things saving whats left of my hair just now.
Correct me if I’m totally wrong, but didn’t the Irish go along this homerule by the constitutional route before finally realising that there was only one way to get the devious British state off their backs?
The Easter rising, that ‘terrible beauty’…..
@ Hyfud.
Good to see that your coming to terms with being a troll however much you try to justify your actions to yourself. One observation for you which you might want to consider. You are English, living in England, interfering in the constitutional process of another country, how are your actions different from say Russia.
@Ottomanboi
Watch the video I linked to just now.
Apologies if being overly cynical, but were the men who turned up at Luke Graham’s constituency office ‘burly’ by any chance?
OT the religion of ‘love thy neighbour ‘ appears to discount actions in Iraq , Afghanistan , Libya , Syria and every other part of the planet which it has invaded and asset stripped.
It continues to condemn other religions as being inferior and violent.
Some shameful comments by politicians and others who would call themselves ‘Christians’ about the atrocity in New Zealand.
Some wonderful words by Waleed on the Revs twitter account.
Who the fuck are you to define and other those of us who support a different political party than yours? By pejorative terms such as ‘nats’ too?
We are ordinary people who support the right of our country to self determination and your low brow insulting paste and copy ‘nats’ rhetoric is straight out the playbook of the right wing newspapers you and ‘your’ ilk feed on.
Wake up call pal, those of us who support independence have many friends and relatives who do not support the proposition and they do not go around othering their own fellow Scots in the manner you have just expressed. We are all Scots in Scotland and great many of us are of the view that we can run our own affairs for ourselves and hold our representatives to account.
You are a troll, you are an ignorant wee Tory wannabe councillor who can’t make the cut in your own neck of the woods. That you spend your time on here hectoring and lecturing is testament to your lack of character and your intolerance for those who do not agree with your worldview.
To put it in Scottish terms: yer a sad wee bastirt wi nuthin bit time oan yer hauns tae criticise ithers and believe ye ur above the yins ye look doon yer nose at.
Now once again, for the record: fuck off Simon.
@Heart of Galloway says:
15 March, 2019 at 9:13 am
… and put Scotland in an altogether different place from the rest of the UK.”
What, “Rest of the UK”, would that be, Heart of Galloway?
The United Kingdom is a bipartite union of kingdoms and when Scotland disunites the union there isn’t a rest of the UK there is the Kingdom of England.
I listened to a woman on BBC Jockland this morning and she must have used the terms, Our country, the whole country or the country at least 30 to 40 times in her brief time on the show. Thing is neither Britain or the United Kingdom are countries. The former is a geographic term for an archipelago and the later describes a bipartite union of kingdoms. Britain contains 8 countries and the United Kingdom two kingdoms.
Now ask yourself why even independence supporters find that so hard to grasp? Could it be the effects of brainwashing like the woman on Radio Jockland was doing?
Can anyone confirm that Right Wing Loony Feminists and Tax avoiders Isabel Oakshot- related to Baron Oakshot and her equally hideous Julia Headcase Brewery have appeared more often that the 36 SNP MPs who represent the UK’s 3rd Largest Party.
Could you also confirm that while the Liberals were the 3rd Largest Party in Westminster, they had a representative on most Question Time shows.
We all know the BBC are a shower of twisted propagandists and all the stats prove beyond any reasonable doubt.
Any chance of them asking the Rev back in to yet again prove they are blatantly biased bunch of B**********
@H Scott
The cynical bit of Luke Graham is not whether his staff was abused or not, the police can deal with this. He raised it at WM as a point scoring exercise so that it would no doubt be recorded in Hansard and the BBC could headline the speakers response.
@HYUFD
True, but Ireland was, indeed had a closer relationship with England being occupied for 800 years. India, was seized and stripped of its wealth so independence on economic grounds was iffy. Fortunately, there was more behind the concept of Swadesh than utilitarianism. It was so for every former British colony.
Scotland needs it own version of Swadesh.
Good opinion piece in the FT …
“Brexit has become a Monty Pythonesque joke”
link to archive.is
…. except, no one is laughing!
that insignificant wee prick suffers from delusions of grandeur
Even if there were to be an election it probably wouldn’t solve anything anyway
———–
not sure why you say that?? a ge would enable
1. both tories and lab to rid themselves of rebel mps, ie those who wont toe party lines, whatever they turn out to be in the event of a ge
2. while im not a fan of fptp, one of its so called advantages is that getting between 37-43% usually is enough to give a party an overall majority.
this entire fiasco is due to the lack of a majority.
if, as you infer, the tories want a no deal brexit, then simply changing out treeza, installing a no deal candidate and calling a ge, would, as per the polls, deliver a tory no deal majority.
simples
For the benefit of our resident troll, the FUD.
“I have traveled across the length and breadth of India and I have not seen one person who is a beggar, who is a thief. Such wealth I have seen in the country, such high moral values, people of such caliber, that I do not think we would conquer this country, unless we break the very backbone of this nation, which is her spiritual and cultural heritage, and therefore, I propose that we replace her old and ancient education system, her culture, for if the Indians think that all that is foreign and English is good and greater than their own, they will lose their self esteem, their native culture and they will become what we want them, a truly dominated nation.”
A quote from the first Baron Macauley, approx. 1834 about his travels through India.
Next time you are abroad, try hiding you accent a little and tell “Johnny Foreigner” that you are Scottish (or even Irish or Welsh). You will surprised at just how warm and welcoming they become.
@Al Dossary
link to en.m.wikipedia.org
Fascinating stuff. Thanks for drawing my attention to it.
” Hindu nationalists have blamed Macaulay for the ills of colonialism, and for ostensibly producing a subculture of Indians who are not proud of their distinct heritage.
Sadly familiar. Here we have a subculture of Scots who are not proud of their distinct heritage!
I think we can say Macaulayism is still, in the 21stC, very much a tool in the BritNat arsenal in Scotland! Much of the opposition to independence comes from the ‘success’ of Macaulayism in turning many Scots into Anglo-Wanabees.
The Politicians can’t make a clear decision,
so give the choice back to the people.
And stop pretending they speak for us.
schrodingers cat says:
Sadly, yes.
A Tory party, headed by one of the far right Brexiteers and standing on a hard Brexit ticket, would win a GE IMO. This is what wider Tory membership want and many MPs are out of step with their voters on this.
A new GE along these lines would not be like TMay’s 2017 camera dodging debacle. An emboldened Tory party shifted to the right and with clear objectives would walk it.
Up against that would be Labour. Enough said.
Al Dossary 1-07
Scots settlers got on well with local natives every where they went. Until England and the rule book moved in sadly some of the later arrival Scots committed some of the worst brutality.
To this day Scots are more welcome than Englishmen, I have experienced this.
@HYUFD
Good luck with your Epping Town council election, perhaps Wingers should give you a hand, posting in local newspapers, facebook, twitter? Just returning the favour of course, poking our noses into things we have no business in. We’re all British after all.
Stay with us Epping Town we heart you! Vote Independent!
Al Dossary and galamcennalath:
A few other Macaulay quotes for you.
“…a single shelf of a good European library was worth the whole native literature of India and Arabia…’’
“… I certainly never met with any orientalist who ventured to maintain that the Arabic and Sanscrit poetry could be compared to that of the great European nations. But when we pass from works of imagination to works in which facts are recorded and general principles investigated, the superiority of the Europeans becomes absolutely immeasurable. It is, I believe, no exaggeration to say that all the historical information which has been collected from all the books written in the Sanscrit language is less valuable than what may be found in the most paltry abridgements used at preparatory schools in England…’’ Is it believable that the same man would utterly contradict himself in the same speech by saying, “…we break the very backbone of this nation which is her spiritual and cultural heritage….”
“…We have to educate a people who cannot at present be educated by means of their mother-tongue. We must teach them some foreign language. The claims of our own language it is hardly necessary to recapitulate… Whoever knows that language has ready access to all the vast intellectual wealth which all the wisest nations of the earth have created… we shall see the strongest reason to think that, of all foreign tongues, the English tongue is that which would be the most useful to our native subjects…”
Re Macaulay from Wiki.
[He supported the replacement of Persian by English as the official language, the use of English as the medium of instruction in all schools, and the training of English-speaking Indians as teachers.On the flip side, this led to Macaulayism in India, and the systematic wiping out of traditional and ancient Indian education and vocational systems and sciences.]
His father came from the Gàidhealtachd, so he’d know about the ‘progressive merits’ of Anglicisation.
His direct intellectual line may be found in such as Gove, Fox and Ferguson. The ball breaking core of self-satisfied Scottish Unionism.
who the hell has whipped up this “childrens crusade” about climate change?
– stinks of astroturf to me. And why Scotland.
– getting a lot of media coverage, and this is a choice for editors.
the bad bad SG and that SNP wanting to use scottish hydrocarbons
– its wrong (these are the rightful property of london and wall st)
not a lot of them telling, for example
– africans to stop shitting kids out like bullets
– or indians that they cant have cars
– or chinese that they shouldnt have washing machines, fridges and their population should be halved
– or americans to stop being such wasteful lardasses
and its always a smug wee lassie – probably got all As in her O grades, bless.
– bring back the tawse.
feminism means little girls get the same as the boys –
4, cross handed for truancy. off you go.
This short comment was on yesterday’s, ‘The end of the rope’ thread, and is well worth a re-post for today’s new readers of Wings over Scotland:
” Terry said 6:05 pm
Great speech by Mhairi Black on article 50. Note the badge she’s wearing – not an Snp one – it’s a Yes one. It’s happening.
link to mobile.twitter.com
“345537/video/1
Short VIDEO. Recommended.
UKIP supporters outside Houses of parliament with banners supporting Scottish independence
Well what they actually say is Jocks F..K off out of our country
Does that mean they accept us as Europeans then, nice one!
Re my Post at 2:03pm this link actually works !
link to mobile.twitter.com
@Jack Murphy 2.03pm
Looks like it’s been removed Jack
Cactus @ 6.51 am =)
Thank you for the song 🙂 Love Fleetwoodmac and I so love Scotland!
Thank you for keeping our spirits up taking us with you through the wee small hours on your wanderings through lovely Glasgow =)
Cameron B Brodie, especially @ 3.06 am re lack of control in our lives causing fear and in the case of Brexit, contributing to the ‘leave’ vote. (Did I get that right?)
And isn’t that link between lack of control and fear (and I understand too, that there is a link between lack of control and a perceived sense of helplessness that then fosters depression) a strong argument for Scotland to have control of its own affairs like a normal nation?
Thank Cameron for continuing to educate and share 🙂
Sadly being the operative word dads
i cant see the remainers in england backing corbyn enthusiastically, whatever havers he decides to put in his manifesto
but we could do well and win back a few of the seats lost in 2017, the mood music coming from wales hints at plaid doing very well at the expense of labour. even NI might throw up a few surprises, ie 1 seat gain for sf would produce a majority for them, on a ticket of a border poll.
still, we can only hope that the divided voters in england throw a spanner in the works and the tories dont get a majority.
slim hope on that last item
Can you imagine the unionists trying to put together, Better Together 2?
There’s never been a better time for Indy Ref 2.
I could just see a BBC Indy debate with the usual 1 Indy MP / MSP, and 4 Unionists. All the Indy has to do is say “What about Brexit?”, and the 4 unionists will come up with 7 different opinions, and there will be anger and Nashing of teeth, and the unionists shall be cautioned and expelled from the proceedings by the bouncers.
Of course, they could just make SiU the official Better Together 2.
*laughs*
I made the mistake of looking at the Herald on line and the headline is squawking about the money spent by the Scottish Government on the court case defending the case brought by Alex Salmond.
I thought that this had hee haw to do with the SNP but a deal to do with civil or uncivil service .
Am I wrong?
Lol, Westminster having to run a Scottish Independence referendum ‘Better Together’ campaign right now, they would not know what day of the week it is.
@cat
Sorry, wasn’t me, I wasn’t talking about a GE. Hopefully we’ll be on our way to Independence long before that and won’t be taking part.
@One_Scot
Indeed. Who are they going to put in charge of it? Lesley Laird as shadow SOS for Scotland, there are no libdems in the cabinet? Ian Murray? Theresa May? Corbyn? Bring back Gordon Brown! Or Alastair Darling again? Pamela Nash? And what about “We love you Scotland please don’t go” it really is more likely to be “feck off”! And there are a lot less unionist MPs, just 24 in total rather than 53.
“Vote NO to stay in the EU”, errrrr, oops.
What some need to look at is, not what case can be made for Indy, but also who can make what case for a NO vote. Damn few and they’re all, errr, insert suitable word.
Mmm, I’m just thinking of 100 Labour MPs coming up from London as our Imperial Masters.
They’d be taken off the train at Birmingham by the Transport Police for infighting.
yesindyref2 says:
15 March, 2019 at 2:49 pm
@One_Scot
Indeed. Who are they going to put in charge of it?….
Same as last time… the BBC.
“Better Together”
Everything has changed so much since 2013/14.
Their first hurdle is getting a credible campaign body together. All the same old faces brought from retirement? Or new brushes from current BritNat MSPs/MPs. Just imagining it brings a chuckle. My best guess it would less human fronted and far more money spent in ads, leaflets, and online manipulation. They have the entire legacy media to reinforce this. All the old claims and promises of 2014 have been turned on their heads and those who made claims would have that thrown back in their faces. I think they will avoid having the campaign of 2014 BT used against them.
The object will be to sow doubts, create division, get people of stay at home, and stop more NOs converting. Don’t expect reasoned stand up debate. Expect smears, innuendo, punchy straplines, and appeals to the dark side of human nature.
If you want to understand the madness of the UK’s negotiating strategy re. Brexit, look to the English school of International Relations. Only then will you understand ‘British’ exceptionalism. Half of the British Establishment still think Britain owns most of the world, and that the coolies will simply bow to superior moral entitlement.
The British Establishment has approximately a century of travel before it leaves the colonial era behind.
Alyn Smith’s weekly update …
link to alynsmith.eu
To quote Alyn Smith…
“But an extension would be a process story, not an end point. On this Mrs May is right, extension does not of itself solve anything. The process to revocation may well be via a referendum, which is the SNP position.”
Bit bleak given a two week window of opportunity…
Sun, bright, hail, sun, calm, wind, dark, rain.
Just a normal day in Scotland.
Kind of like Westminster really, but it’s without the sun, bright and calm, and has a lot more wind from the benches.
UK breaking international treaties.
link to craigmurray.org.uk
link to twitter.com
Fae couple weeks ago lol
Robert Peffers@12.50pm
Robert, I would respectfully ask you to take that back. Nowhere in my post did I say such a thing. Have got the right person? Ca’ canny.
Great listen.
Christine Grahame talks Sovereignty.
link to m.facebook.com
Time for a bit of International Relations Theory?
link to e-ir.info
Securing international society: towards an English school discourse of security
link to tandfonline.com;
The English School’s approach to international law
eprints.lse.ac.uk/21433/1/The_English_Schools_Approach_to_International_Law_(LSERO).pdf
Human rights in international relations
socialsciences.exeter.ac.uk/politics/research/readingroom/Dunne-goodhart-chap04.pdf
Time now for a bit of International Relations Theory critique of the English school?
International Relations, Principal Theories
link to princeton.edu
System, Society & the World:
Exploring the English School of International Relations
link to e-ir.info
A Realist Critique of the English School
link to researchgate.net
Why is there no gender in the English School?
link to cambridge.org
So I might as well go the full shilling and give you a Feminist Standpoint view of International Relations.
link to e-ir.info
Feminism and Gender Studies in International Relations Theory
link to oxfordre.com
Feminist Approaches to International Relations Theory in the Post- Cold War Period
link to bbvaopenmind.com
Feminist Theory and International Relations:
The Feminist Challenge to Realism and Liberalism
link to csustan.edu
“EU leaders have hinted they could support a longer delay only if Britain were to drop its red lines, particularly its insistence on leaving the EU customs union so as to pursue an independent trade policy.”
link to france24.com
The Rev’s three options covered. I think everyone will be surprised if May’s ‘deal’ passes third attempt (Option 1).
Option 2 ( long extension ) would need a big shift in UK position.
Still makes Option 3 … crash and burn … the odds on favourite!
P.S. Political Realism and Realist International Relations are not related to Critical Realism.
@ CBB – shouldn’t that be the “British” School of International Relations?
Time for a bit of post-colonial, Feminist International Relations Theory. Radical stuff.
link to journals.kent.ac.uk
Performing Brexit: How a post-Brexit world is imagined outside the United Kingdom
link to journals.sagepub.com
Brexit as a scandal: gender and global trumpism
link to tandfonline.com
Women, equality and the UK’s EU referendum: locating the gender politics of Brexit in relation to the neoliberalising state
link to tandfonline.com
Capella
No, it’s the “English” school. Honest.
The English School in a Nutshell
link to ritsumei.ac.jp
CameronB Brodie says:
15 March, 2019 at 6:06 pm
Time for a bit of post-colonial, Feminist International Relations
Is there a right time for a bit of post-colonial; Feminist International Relations???
What does our Queenie say about it? “… my husband and I..
Fingers crossed, and for the sake of Scottish Independence, it is the crash out of the EU option that prevails.
Enough is enough, it’s time to put Scotland first and let England’s house of cards fall.
@Heart of Galloway
It was Breeks an hour or so later, Peffers misattributed the quote.
Doesn’t matter anyway, if Sturgeon uses the phrase “rest of the UK”, it’s good enough for the rest of us. And she does many times, just google – sturgeon “rest of the UK” – including the quote marks. For instance, she told a US audience: “… chart a different course from the rest of the UK”. And has used it often on her twitter. Salmond used and uses it too.
And the rest of the World uses “rest of the UK”, including for instance the NY Times. So does tyhe Indy white paper “Scotland’s Future”, for instance “We will work in partnership with the rest of the UK …” as it does 20 times in the first 27 pages, can’t be assed counting any more, but about hundreds of times.
Depends on whether we want to be pedants, or communicate with the rest of the World – and indeed, the rest of the UK. And Scotland itself. Taking 3 paragraphs or minutes to say “rest of the UK” really is a turn off in normal conversation!
@yesindyref2
Nicola does say some things which grate in my ears. One is “the country” when she refers to the UK.
I trust she knows what she’s doing and suspect she uses phrases like that for exactly the reasons you suggest ie using the accepted phraseology when communicating with a wider audience.
I can’t help it bugging me, though 🙂
Hamish100
British society is structured through colonialism, which results in structural misogyny and structural racism. Betty is quite happy to sit on top of the dung heap as she does quite well out of things. Anyway, it’s her habit and constitutional obligation to be apolitical and regal. Nice work if you can get it. 😉
No dom. That is not our way to achieve our dream of Independence for Scotland off the backs of others suffering.
I think that is why the SNP are working so hard to prevent a hard and harshest Brexit and maybe even hopefully see the revocation of Article 50 altogether.
Independence will be won on its merits.
The last two years worth of dispicible treatment of Scotland in Westminster on top of centuries of abuse and theft, the democratic deficit and most importantly, Scotland’s potential finally be realised as a normal independent Nation is the evidence we can work with.
Not the pain of a no deal Brexit. We do not wish that on anybody.
dom says:
I’m not going to say you’re wrong because I don’t know how this could all play out.
I have an uneasy feeling a crash out Brexit could lead to authoritarian behaviour. There is little enough democracy as things stand.
I don’t want a long delay and a second vote. That sets a bad precedent for IndyRef2. We don’t want another final vote of any Indy ‘deal’!
For me the best option may be the WA passes and we enter a transitional period. May’s ‘deal’ and accompanying Future Trade Statement still point to a hard Brexit. However, it’s still a blind Brexit with years of trade negotiations. The treatment of Scotland has still been awful. For me, this scenario is a good one to have an orderly Indy campaign and vote. Then we bugger off.
Dom
I agree with Ghillie, from a moral perspective and from that of logic. England crashing out of the EU will not benefit Scotland. It might jog a few minds into action but Brexit still imperils Scotland’s public health and cultural integrity. A “no deal” scenario is the worst of possible starts for Scottish independence, IMHO.
stu mac @ 4:25 pm
Interesting link..
Can’t see the current Tory government being in power again, after the next GE.
With the baton being passed to a future Labour (or Labour coalition?) government chances are that they would abide by the court’s decision on the return of the Chagos Islandsm.
I can’t see anyways a future Labour government coyld possibly have any dealings with the DUP or ERG?
This is a Jack too far …
link to thenational.scot
Wonder what happens with Minis sold in NI?
Interesting tweet about the David Steel investigation by the Scottish Liberal Democrats. Tweeters asking who are the Scottish Lib Dems. Answer is that, according to the Electoral Commission, there is no such entity. Looks quite stark when you see it written down:
link to twitter.com
Intit nice to know that the DUP and the cabinet have been having cosy wee chats all day??
@galamcennalath
I think Indy supporters and unionists have a subtly different use of language, I’ve twigged some YESsers from that. So I guess Sturgeon uses unionist language at times to increase the appeal of what she says.
For something else I don’t think danny or all the other names went away, just mutated in moniker.
Latest QT ‘shouty rant man’ plant has been ‘weeded out’ it seems.
link to m.facebook.com
Jfngw Golfnut Thankyou for the election comments to be honest I do not have the time to be a serious troll and by definition any Unionist on a nationalist site will end up being considered a troll whether they are or not
Abulhaq Even today Ireland still exports a significant percentage to the UK and Indian growth in recent years has been based on capitalist free market principles
@HYUFD
It’s good to take the piss, but in fairness you’re completely honest about your anti-indy beliefs, and have been from the beginning.
Re the Mini with the UJ tail lights – I see one of the bitter unionists comments that the Mini is not Scottish, it’s British.
There we go again. If it is British it must also be Scottish. I thought that was the whole point of the Better Together argument.
In reality, if it’s not Scottish then it’s English. So it should have the St George Cross on the tail lights.
Someone else points out it was designed by a Greek, the company is now owned by BMW which is German and the car was assembled all over the place.
Maybe they should have left the tail lights red. But does that suggest it was made in the Soviet Union, which no longer exists. Soon, the UK may no longer exist.
Yesindyref2 I hope there is no indyref2 anytime soon and polls show mpst Scots do not want one for at least a number of years but if there is Ruth Davidson is the obvious leader of the No campaign
Yesindyref2 Thankyou for that and yes I know as a Unionist I am very much a minority view on here
HYUFD clearly doesn’t understand ethical morality in the international political arena. Pity he chose to get involved in international politics. Eh?
“Ruth Davidson is the obvious leader of the No campaign”
—-
Up there with Wee Willie and Richard, dream team for the Yes movement. BRING IT FUCKING ON!
Dorothy Devine @ 7:04 pm
Now that Westminster has voted for an extension, there is a spontaneous outbreak of cooperation.
I would appear the purpose of Article 50 part 3 (an extension) was for the UK to participate in the elections for the parliament of the European Union.
Who would have thought it.
Seems to me that the EU referendum was never about leaving.
The ‘transitional arrangement’ until 20xx would facillitate the transfer of more reserved powers to Scotland that would not have been possible under existing EU treaties, and ultimately the break up of the UK.
So the funny thing is that while the SNP claim it is a bad deal for Scotland, and the Tories claim it is good deal for the UK, the opposite is true.
The DUP must know this.
@HYUFD
She is, yes, but Shinty is right. Bring it on!
HYUFD @ 7.22 PM
Re Ireland/UK trade.
Ireland has total exports of £159 Billion. Ireland’s exports to the UK make up 11% of that total.
“”The top export destinations of Ireland are the United States ($40.2B), the United Kingdom ($18.5B), Belgium-Luxembourg ($15.5B), Germany ($14.3B) and Switzerland ($7.73B). The top import origins are the United Kingdom ($20.8B), the United States ($17.3B), Germany ($8.37B), France ($7.5B) and China ($4.56B).””
Data from: link to atlas.media.mit.edu
Ireland has had an annual trade surplus since 1990 or thereabouts.
@Legerwood
Ireland has been quietly increasing trade abroad not including the UK, and its freight direct to the European mainland. Scotland has actually been doing the first part of that, while mostly talking about the second. But there have been and are advances.
I missed out “for years” in the above.
galamcennalath says:
15 March, 2019 at 5:39 pm
“EU leaders have hinted they could support a longer delay only if Britain were to drop its red lines, particularly its insistence on leaving the EU customs union so as to pursue an independent trade policy.”
Em, can we have a more explicit clarification of “hinted”?
Guy Verhofstadt 14 Mar
“Under no circumstances an extension in the dark! Unless there is a clear majority in the House of Commons for something precise, there is no reason at all for the European Council to agree on a prolongation. Even the motion tabled for this evening by the UK Gov. recognises this.”
14 days. Tick tock…
@yesindyref2 says: 15 March, 2019 at 6:22 pm:
” … Doesn’t matter anyway, if Sturgeon uses the phrase “rest of the UK”, it’s good enough for the rest of us.
Well no it doesn’t, yesindyref2 but what it does is make my point for me about how invasive the brainwashing is.
Now answer me this:-
Is the United Kingdom legally a two partner union of kingdoms or is it not?
Now if it is there is a great case to be made in a court that Scotland has every legal right to end the Treaty of Union without any other reason than the legally sovereign people of Scotland say it is over – a sovereign word is law.
If it isn’t Scotland has no right to end the treaty of union.
The thing is that if the Treaty of Union was signed by two, equally sovereign partners then when it ends the Status Quo Ante is a return to the legal status that existed when the treaty was signed.
If the result on the treaty ending would not be the Status Quo Ante then there cannot be a case made for Scottish Independence.
So if the status were to be Scotland leaving behind a still united kingdom of any sort there simply is no case to be made.
More simply put – Scotland did not join an already United Kingdom and that is born out by the signatories on the actual treaty being only the Kingdom of Scotland and the Kingdom of England. It was not the United Kingdom of England.
So my point that the brain washing is all pervasive is born out by the fact that even the FM, a trained lawyer, uses the wrong term and that is what Scotland would face in the international courts.
If the UK crashes out would it not be more advantageous for Scotland to join efta so as to gain access to the EU market? Would that not allow us to then trade more freely with England? Would it then allow us over time to be far less reliant on England for exports and maybe one day become full EU members. Especially if England in years time realises that brexit wasn’t worth it in the end and wanted to rejoin the EU
yesindyref2 @ 7:56pm
Yes, that could be seen in the most recent trade figures – 2017 – which showed that exports to the EU (excluding oil and gas) had increased by 13.3%
I guess the various trade hubs opened in Berlin, Brussels etc contributed to that.
Exports to the rest of the UK grew 4.6% over the same period and I guess the London trade hub contributed to that.
Why are people still engaging with the failed english council candidate ?
Dontxwe have better things to talk about ?
@Legerwood says: 15 March, 2019 at 7:48 pm:4
… Re Ireland/UK trade. – Ireland has total exports of £159 Billion. Ireland’s exports to the UK make up 11% of that total.”
The truth, though, Legerwood is rather different. UK government figures are total mince.
The most obvious of which are probably Scotch and Gin.
Only Scotland produces Scotch but by far the greatest proportion of that is exported via England and because the UK Government chooses to count UK exports by the UK country it leaves the UK from as that country’s exports the figures bear no relation to the truth. Scotland also produces 70% of UK Gin – how much of that is exported via Scottish ports?
Now here is a wee bit more complex case. The main producers of Soft fruit are in Scotland. The main producers of sugar are out with the UK yet England claim to be the main exporters of jams and Marmalades. There are literally many thousands of products and produce therefore that are actually English re-exports.
That is taking in the components from the rest of the UK or from abroad, processing the components and exporting them as English exports.
For example – the recent case of the fish processing business in the Scottish borders being closed down and moved to England. So if a Scottish housewife goes to her local supermarket and buys packs of frozen fish & Chips for each member of her family the Fish were probably caught in Scottish waters and the potato’s probably grown elsewhere than England.
Yet they are recorded in the UK statistics as English exports to Scotland. As was the raspberry jam on the bread her brood had as a snack between meals.
Hey Dorothy and Ghillie, glad yous enjoyed the music and the journey, ah was rockin’ it up in ma big city last night and oh how it feels SO good 2 let it out! 😉 ah always try tae work the Glasgow demographic a wee bit.
Heading back out on another walkabout journey…
Give me the strength hehe.
Hi Robert Peffers.
In the interest of fairness, you should really address your mistaken attribution of,
“@Heart of Galloway says:
15 March, 2019 at 9:13 am
… and put Scotland in an altogether different place from the rest of the UK.”
What, “Rest of the UK”, would that be, Heart of Galloway?”
You appear to have missed the fact that Heart of Galloway was being quoted by Breeks at 10.53.
“and put Scotland in an altogether different place from the rest of the UK.”, at 10.53 this morning was typed by Breeks. Heart of Galloway never typed Breeks’ 10.53 comment at 9.13.
yesindyref2 pointed this out at 6.22 tonight but you deigned to address your mistaken attribution.
Be fair to Heart of Galloway.
Col says:
15 March, 2019 at 8:13 pm
If the UK crashes out would it not be more advantageous for Scotland to join efta so as to gain access to the EU market? Would that not allow us to then trade more freely with England? Would it then allow us over time to be far less reliant on England for exports and maybe one day become full EU members. Especially if England in years time realises that brexit wasn’t worth it in the end and wanted to rejoin the EU
No is the short answer. Suppose English supermarkets started supplying Scottish Supermarkets with sub standard deregulated produce like beef full of steroids and hormones. Exactly what would Norway or Iceland do about it? Suppose it wasn’t obvious at first, but hidden behind deregulated labelling. The EU couldn’t protect us, it could only bring in checks on Scottish exports and ban them.
The EU on the other hand would use its muscle to look after its members and would bring much more pressure to bear on errant English distributors. It can pull strings with its trade deals and negotiators, bans, regulations and standards and has enough leverage to stand up to the USA, nevermind a bitter wee England trying to bale enough water to keep itself afloat.
Until Scotland is free from the legacy and influence of this perfidious Union, in my opinion we should bind ourself as tightly as possible to the EU to protect our interests and economy from a tsunami of deregulated American cut price produce and a “British” attitude that would like to see Scotland’s prosperity suffer and our Independence flounder.
You think that’s too harsh? Just take a look at how Cox, the Attorney General and senior legal adviser to the Government plans to deal with the Irish Backstop. Say anything in the short term to secure a Withdrawal Agreement, then cite the Vienna Convention to wriggle out the Irish Backstop later. Would you honestly trust the English Government to respect Scotland’s EFTA credentials and resist the temptation orchestrate as much disruption and instability for Scottish exports to the EU? I know who I’d like to have in our corner, and with no disrespect intended, it isn’t the Norwegians or the Swiss. It’s the EU Death Star on our doorstop.
I’m spending more time at the mo’ installing & configuring new computer kit, and I’m not sure which is the more frustrating, that or Brexit WM style. (The latter, I reckon though, because the former is in principle fixable.)
But since no-one seems to have mentioned it on here yet, a very pertinent article in today’s National by the eminently sensible Ruth Wishart:
link to thenational.scot
There is more worth reading, but the title gets to the nub of it…
Everybody trades with everybody because they need to and want to, the trouble with England is they want to make the rules and not pay the price everybody else pays, that’s one of the reasons they want to leave the EU
Apart from their xenphobia and delusions of Empire and tax avoidance that is
Edinburgh going ahead with tram extention,
all based on their estimate that 16,000,000 people per year want a tram ride to Newhaven,
that is 44,000 per day for 365 consecutive days,
“The definition of insanity is doing the same thing over and over again, but expecting different results.”
Brian Doonthetoon says:
15 March, 2019 at 8:49 pm
Hi Robert Peffers.
In the interest of fairness, you should really address your mistaken attribution of,
“@Heart of Galloway says:
In fairness to Robert, he scrolls past what I write, so how was he to know? 😉
Phillip Hammond is getting his wallet of taxpayers money out for the next DUP bung
Time independentist mps and msps stopped referring to the United Kingdom. Scotland and the British state ought to be the everyday terms. Indeterminate, general terms such as ‘the country’ should be avoided in discourse too, unless the context is clear. We need to put some distance between ourselves and the ‘established’ order. The language we use is important, we need to watch it.
Cactus enjoy your night , enjoy the music of the night and may your energy never wane!
I’ll expect to catch up on your adventures in the morning.
BBC says the DUP are meeting Philip Hammond and Michael Gove. If you’re wondering why the Environment Secretary is involved then read Craig Murray’s latest post.
link to craigmurray.org.uk
And as Gail Macfarlane points out in Stu’s twitter, the power these 10 DUP MPs have illustrates how craven the 13 Scottish Tories are. They meekly obey orders and demand nothing for Scotland. The DUPs leverage would disappear if these 13 Tories would act in their constituents interests.
link to twitter.com
Abulhaq
Absolutely.
It is England who is responsible for this mess which is affecting Scotland and it is outrageous yet consistent that that fact is hidden behind “the country and Britain”.
I am sick to death of hearing how the “British” people voted to leave the EU when it was the English vote that has taken us out and its the English media and English pundits and English MP`s who are discussing the future consequences with Scotland having no voice what so ever.
Legerwood That 11% still makes the UK the second largest export destination for the Republic of Ireland and Ireland has a sea border with England and the vast majority of the UK population and economy, Scotland has a land border with England and most of the UK
Robert Peffers @ 8.39 pm
Your post completely misses the point.
If you had looked at the link I provided in my post at 7.48 PM you would have seen that I was not using UK data and my post had nothing whatsoever to do with which part of the UK the exports originated from.
The data sources used to put the data together in the link is as follows:
“”Data Sources
“”All of the product data shown on the site is classified using either SITC (Standard International Trade Classification) or HS (Harmonized System).
For historical SITC classification data (1962 – 2000), we use data from The Center for International Data from Robert Feenstra1. For more recent data (2001 – 2017), we use data provided by UN COMTRADE.
For all of the HS data used throughout the site (1995 – 2017) we use the BACI International Trade Database2. The original data comes from the United Nations Statistical Division (COMTRADE), but is cleaned by the BACI team using their own methodology of harmonization.””
@Robert Peffers
“how invasive the brainwashing is”
Ohmigud, you think Sturgeon is brainwashed! Does that, umm, make you SNPbaaadd?
HYUFD is NOT a unionist troll.
He is a lying Britnat troll.
Well isn’t this Sir David affair a bonus, on top of the current madness!
A blast from the past, with ALL the elements in place, to show how utterly corrupted our system is. And how it’s done.
All links from-
link to private-eye.co.uk
The Hostel-
link to private-eye.co.uk
The Labour MP lending him credibility-
link to private-eye.co.uk
The DPP & the Spooks-
And how the corporate, and State controlled media covered it up.
link to private-eye.co.uk
The Referendum will inevitably be Project Fear MK2, and a binary choice really.
Stay, with this? Become Airstrip 1, if we behave!
Or strike out afresh, as part of the largest economic zone this side of Alpha centauri, and in the process try to help sort out the general global fuckwittery currently running rampant.
Doh!
The DPP & the Spooks-
link to private-eye.co.uk
HYUFD says:
15 March, 2019 at 9:36 pm
Legerwood That 11% still makes the UK the second largest export destination for the Republic of Ireland and Ireland has a sea border with England and the vast majority of the UK population and economy, Scotland has a land border with England and most of the UK””
………
I am not sure of the point you are trying to make but Ireland’ aggregated exports to the EU dwarves its exports to the UK which means that Ireland hassuccessfully from its previous over-reliance on the UK as a market for its exports.
Just as an independent Scotland in the EU would do. After all there is a precedent for this. Pre-1707 Scotland traded successfully with Europe.
@ Col 8:13 pm
If the UK crashes out I hope you had the foresight to have your “UK exiting the EU mitigation plan” (aka veg patch) up and running.
I’m not convinced the current crop (see what I did there) of incompetents “in charge” that have taken around 2.5 years to achieve, eh, the best part of not much are going to quickly solve the rather pressing issue that the UK currently only produces around half the food it consumes.
Maybe we will all magically find more money in our pay packets. That way we’ll be able to afford to buy the high end produce that we currently export to make up for the shortfall in our diets of the cheaper (but still of a decent standard due to EU regs) produce that we currently import from the EU.
link to archive.is
Remember the UK uses a JIT (just in time) model so food stocks won’t last any significant length of time, and if that fails societal breakdown won’t be far behind.
I watched a bit of the goings on at Westminster yesterday and its archaic processes took so long I got hungry waiting on just one amendment to be voted on!
Robert Peffers says:
15 March, 2019 at 8:39 pm
@Legerwood says: 15 March, 2019 at 7:48 pm:4
… Re Ireland/UK trade. – Ireland has total exports of £159 Billion. Ireland’s exports to the UK make up 11% of that total.”
The truth, though, Legerwood is rather different. UK government figures are total mince.
—————–
RP.
Legerwood was talking about the ROI and the figures are from the ROI Government not the UK.
link to atlas.media.mit.edu
ROI exports 11% to the UK (sales to the UK).
Whether the UK imports components for further manufacturing and exports the finished/part finished products is a different matter.
The figures are not to do with UK “transit” hanky-panky.
Cubby
The lad apparently has nae mates. 😉
Dr Jim @ 20:56,
What too many seem to have lost sight of is that any exit other than SM/CU will involve years – if not decades – of trade negotiations with the EU, Uncle Tom Cobley and all. If people are fed up with Brexit now, they had better seriously toughen up, because we are just getting to the end of the initial phase.
An independent Scotland will certainly have problems to overcome in trading with an exited England, but if we remain in the EU, we will be in a strong position and England will be a sadly shrunken and lonely mendicant, desperate for deals. That’s why Ireland is holding strong. They can see how the wind is blowing. We need to learn from their resolution.
The notion that Scotland has to fear trade barriers with a lonely exited England is just another manifestation of the cringe.
Provided like Ireland we ensure we have a little help from our friends.
Col @ 20:18 joinng efta solves nothing, we need to be in EFTA the EEA and I think Schengen for freedom of movement, difficult to find out exactly , i did some looking via google and that seemed to be the groups we need to be in, much to my surprise apparently EFTA or EEA has nothing to do with Freedom of Movement, I wish i had saved that document. Note that if we want to set up our own trade deal The former rest of UK (Pedant alert ) we cannot be in the Customs union. Norway isnt and I presume thats why they are not in the common fishing or agriculture areas. Otherwise .i cant see any reason for Norway not to be in the customs union.
I read what Breeks says and dont agree, like it our not we have a huge trade with “The rest of the UK (Pedant alert put that in just to wind you up ) if they do not have a tariff free trade with the EU then i think it would be to our advantage to set up a free trade deal, if they want to sell us dodgy chicken then we tell them no, its simples, our Oil and Gas, Electricity, water, fish, whisky etc is more important to them than them selling us sub standard food, we have the upper hand. EFTA/EEA/Schengen way might be the one that gets us over the line, there is no reason why we cannot have a referendum on EU membership further on down the line down the line when circumstances change or there is a demand from it.
With leading SNP parliamentarians (in the different parliaments) seeming to be increasingly vocal about the sovereignty of the people in Scotland, and increasingly confident that we will not be dragged out of the EU against our will, I am beginning to think that a way of making this happen might already have been arranged with the EU leadership behind the scenes.
Pure guesswork, for sure …
But just imagine that NS and co., perhaps from the very beginning after the referendum, have succeeded in explaining the true constitutional situation of Scotland to insider circles in the EU, and that these EU people have taken serious note of our clear 62% vote to remain … And just imagine they have taken all this on board, and promised they won’t let Scotland down. Especially in the event of a Brexit becoming the kind of Brexit that will seriously damage Scotland’s interests … And just imagine that there is already a plan for how to do this.
Could that explain the more assertively pro-EU membership voice that the SNP leadership seems at last, in recent weeks, to have regained? … Just as Brexit looms … And does that explain their newfound confidence that really and truly, we – Scotland – will not be leaving the EU after all, despite the hard, very hard Brexit that is hurtling relentlessly towards the UK? …
Is there something afoot that is about to surprise us all?
I really don’t know … But, maybe …
I very much hope so.
Has there even perhaps been an arrangement all along?
Something like … ‘Do your best to make the UK Brexit as soft as possible (Customs Union and Single Market), which will soften the blow for everyone, Scotland included, and the EU as well. But if that doesn’t work out, don’t worry … We’ll keep you in. … And if a majority of Scots opt for independence, we’ll make sure you gain full EU membership as quickly and smoothly as possible, if that’s what you want.’
Don’t forget that the EU could not intervene in Scotland’s favour during Indyref1, for the simple reason that UK was a member state. The EU cannot interfere in the internal constitutional matters of a member state. But all that will be changing very soon, perhaps as early as March 29, when the UK will no longer be a member state.
At that point the EU will be able to make public signals that an independent Scotland would be very welcome as a member state. Even, perhaps, indicating that it would be considered a ‘continuing membership’, if so desired by us etc. With the UK out, the EU will no longer have any reason to discourage Scottish independence. To the contrary, they are likely to be fully in favour of it … even publicly so …
Who knows? Could be …
McDuff
re the ignorance ( I’m trying to be polite) of the majority of Southern British to whom England and Britain are interchangeable and the rest of us don’t exist –
I was driving home on Thursday evening with R4 on and they were doing a sequence of Shakespeare readings in between WM voting results to try and create some calm amidst all the WM chaos – could not have picked a worse excerpt to play on National Radio as it sums up the irony perfectly..
This royal throne of kings, this sceptred isle,
This earth of majesty, this seat of Mars,
This other Eden, demi-paradise,
This fortress built by Nature for herself
Against infection and the hand of war,
This happy breed of men, this little world,
This precious stone set in the silver sea,
Which serves it in the office of a wall
Or as a moat defensive to a house,
Against the envy of less happier lands,–
This blessed plot, this earth, this realm, this England.
@yesindyref2 says:15 March, 2019 at 9:39 pm:
” … Ohmigud, you think Sturgeon is brainwashed! Does that, umm, make you SNPbaaadd?”
Of course not. The whole point of brainwashing is that the victims do not use these terms deliberately. In most cases they don’t even realise they are doing it. That is the entire purpose of brain washing. Matter of fact the vast majority of Yoons also don’t realise they are doing it.
They just accept that the wrong terms hey use are the norm. It is only by making a conscious effort that anyone can stop falling into the bad habits of using the wrong terms.
The difference is that the unionists believe them and the independence supporters don’t but still fall into the trap as the terms have been drilled into their brains since they were learning to use language.
When you say, “Scotland is leaving the United Kingdom”, you probably mean that the united Kingdom has ended but when the unionists use the same term they mean the United Kingdom goes on but just without Scotland.
Same goes, for example, when the term Bank of England is used. You know it is actually the United Kingdom central bank but the unionist think it actually is only the English central bank.
@ Legerwood
Sorry, I first saw your reply to RP from 9.39pm later when playing catch-up.
Need a G & T to wake up…:-)
“4. What is included in the EEA Agreement [the EFTA one]?
The EEA Agreement provides for the inclusion of EU legislation in all policy areas of the Single Market. This covers the four freedoms, i.e. the free movement of goods, services, persons and capital, as well as competition and state aid rules, but also the following horizontal policies: consumer protection, company law, environment, social policy, statistics. In addition, the EEA Agreement provides for cooperation in several flanking policies such as research and technological development, education, training and youth, employment, tourism, culture, civil protection, enterprise, entrepreneurship and small and medium-sized enterprises. The EEA Agreement guarantees equal rights and obligations within the Single Market for citizens and economic operators in the EEA. Through Article 6 of the EEA Agreement, the case law of the Court of Justice of the European Union is also of relevance to the EEA Agreement, as the provisions of the EEA Agreement shall be interpreted in conformity with the relevant rulings of the Court given prior to the date of signature (i.e. 2 May 1992).
5. What is not covered by the EEA Agreement?
The EEA Agreement does not cover the following EU policies: common agriculture and fisheries policies (although the EEA Agreement contains provisions on trade in agricultural and fish products); customs union; common trade policy; common foreign and security policy; justice and home affairs (the EEA EFTA States are however part of the Schengen area); direct and indirect taxation; or economic and monetary union.”
link to efta.int
entry (main) page:
link to efta.int
@Lenny Hartley
To be part of the EEA then freedom of movement is one of the requirements of membership.
You do not need to be in Schengen.
link to en.wikipedia.org.
Scot Finlayson @ 8:59 pm wrote the following re- the Edinburgh tram extension to Newhaven.
“Edinburgh going ahead with tram extension, all based on their estimate that 16,000,000 people per year want a tram ride to Newhaven …”
As an ‘alert reader’ I’ve just had a quick look through the final business case published by the City of Edinburgh Council. I was interested in locating the basis for the above claim – but so far without success.
I did find the following statistics of relevance in the published business case:
“Edinburgh tram has performed well since its opening, carrying 7.4 million passengers in 2018.”
“The (extension) project is forecast to generate an incremental demand of 7m passenger ?journeys in its opening year.”
“Annual forecast demand for the existing system is 8.7m for 2023. This compares with observed demand of 6.7m in 2017 and 7.4m in 2018. ”
?
“With the York Place to Newhaven line, the overall demand almost doubles to 15.7m in 2023, ….” ?
Having written this I’m now revisiting the business case document in search of the reference to the 16,000,000 people per year wanting “a tram ride to Newhaven”. This reads like a headline worthy of The Scotsman but as is often the case with that rag all is perhaps not quite what it seems!
Source: link to edinburgh.gov.uk
@Robert Peffers
Absolutely. The problems is you either take on the whole world, or just the part of it you can win. It’s a case of picking the right battle.
Breeks
I agree. T may has two objectives for certain.
One – create a situation where she can reimpose Direct Rule in N. Ireland; I would not be surprised if that is an outcome from tonight’s talks, – to take place after a careful amount of time has lapsed.
Craig Murray goes so far as to theorise that Geoffrey Cox’ s advice almost indicates this as a possible route to follow. DUP would love it! Removes the threat of a United Ireland instantly. Take back control!
Two – retain Scotland at ALL COSTS, but in so doing I think she may follow a tried and tested route of destroying our premium products – Scotch whisky, salmon, shellfish, beef etc – by allowing a no tariff regime post Brexit. She may attempt to weaken the economy so much that we will not be able to consider a future Indy ref as we will not be able to support ourselves – Take back control.
But of course, Scotland has wriggled out of her grasp so far and this frustrates her hugely.
I think she may have overcalculated this time though.
Galamcennalath @ 6.43
Is it not the case that if the WA is agreed then WM can carry out the power grab on powers returning to the UK. If there is a transition period we still have the power of the ECJ to appeal to for anything.
Seems to me that with a NO Deal exit WM will do the same thing and seize power, only in that scenario, we are outwith the ECJ jurisdiction.
When confronted by a Lib-Dem canvasser.
Excuse me, are you the Cyril Smith and liar Carmichael party?
@Lenny Hartley says: 15 March, 2019 at 10:24 pm:
… if they do not have a tariff free trade with the EU then i think it would be to our advantage to set up a free trade deal, if they want to sell us dodgy chicken then we tell them no, its simples, our Oil and Gas, Electricity, water, fish, whisky etc is more important to them than them selling us sub standard food, we have the upper hand.”
I’ll give you yet another, “What if”, What if the SG/SNP plan to just wait until Brexit day and announce that, “Scotland will not be dragged out of the EU against the expressed will of the legally sovereign people of Scotland and declare the union is over and immediately apply to the EU to remain in the EU as the legacy part of the dis-UNITED Kingdom and demanded the EU respect the wishes of their Kingdom of Scotland EU citizens.
That is claiming our EU citizens legal rights at the exact same time as we declare our right, as an equally sovereign bipartite United Kingdom ex-partner.
There is no doubt that there was an abrupt change in the outspoken claims being made even in the Holyrood and Westminster chamber itself. It was not only sudden but right across the board. I may be wrong but it seemed like a pre-planned move to me. What is surprising is that there has been no corresponding changes in the unionist retorts. In fact there has been a total absence of retort from the union side.
The way I think it would work with iScotland in EFTA / EEA is that Scotland would get a derogation from Schengen, because of our own economic circumstances with the rest of the UK (Hi RP!), but also becuase of the importance placed on the GFA, hence NI ==> Scotland, and NI ==> Scotland ==> England for people and vice versa, but not goods.
As others have pointed out, a “hard” border from north of Carlisle to Berwick for Customs, and Bob’s your uncle, Theresa’s your aunt. Frankly she’s not the favourite aunt.
@RP
Very possibly exactly that. But “demanded” is not the right word, it would be done diplomatically with trips to various bits of Europe by Sturgeon and others for the unofficial nod. As they’ve already done.
I’d say 10pm on the 29th is the last practical moment it could be done. 10.59 would be pushing it!
Oh, and I think it would be Mike Russel with a letter signed by Sturgeon as FM, delivered by hand.
Thepnr cheers i found another official looking document that sugested that Schengen was the agreement for freedom of movement for people.
Yesindy2 ref think young EU Nationals coming to work here are more beneficial to our economy than economic refugees or pensioners coming tonaccess our NHS and better benefits thanks
Robert Peffers yes there are more ways tonskin a cat but NS has not wavered from a referendum with section 30, yes off course she maybe playing the game , i guess we will see shortly.
Abulhaq @9.08
Agree, but I prefer “Kingdom of Scotland” and “Kingdom of England” myself, as it covers so many bases, including equality of status, and a clear distinction between “them” and “us”, particularly as this is what the ensuing legal battle will centre on. Better to start the education of the greater public (including politicians!) and normalisation of terms now.
Yesinderef2
I would just love that. The handing in of a notice dissolving the Union on the 29th March with simultaneous withdrawal of SNP MPs from Westminster and a notification to the United Nations, the ECJ and the EU.
HYUFD at 9.36
Ah. You’re the one that will be able to explain some stuff to me. Scotland having a border with trading partner England is a “bad thing”.
England having a border with 27 trading partners is a “good thing”.
I’m confused.
OK, I’m definitely selling A Feminist Standpoint view of International Relations. Here’s why.
link to cambridge.org
Gendering International Security: Seeing Feminist Theories as International Relations
link to journals.sagepub.com
Universalism in feminist international ethics: gender and the difficult labour of translation
eprints.lse.ac.uk/51492/1/__lse.ac.uk_storage_LIBRARY_Secondary_libfile_shared_repository_Content_Hutchings,%20K_Universalism%20feminist%20international%20ethics_Hutchings_Universalism%20feminist%20international_2014.pdf
Developing a critical realist positional approach to intersectionality
link to dspace.lboro.ac.uk
@Lenny
Yes, the UK has a permanent derogation from Schengen, Cyprus a temporary one, and I think Denmark has a special protocol for the Faroes, not sure about that. Scotland would be a bit of a unique case, but the EU can handle that, if it wants.
This makes for grim reading:
link to nrscotland.gov.uk.
The figures from the Registrar General for Scotland show that in Q4 2018 births fell to their lowest level since full civic registration began in 1855. Dig a bit deeper and you find that 1964 was the last year more than 100,000 babies were born in Scotland, After that a remorseless decline set in which took the country to a low of 52,000 in 2002.
A minor recovery then began which edged the total back over 60,000 by 2008. That year of course the global banking swindle hit then Tory-imposed austerity hammered working folks’ pockets. Down went the birth rate which, the figures reveal, fell back to 52,500 last year.
Two things stand out: the close link between relative economic confidence and the decision to have a child/children and the absolute need for Scotland to preserve its EU status to allow young people from across Europe to remain/settle here.
Wouldn’t surprise me at all if Scotland’s deal with the EU is all written up and ready to go when Scotland’s ready
I don’t believe the FM has been visiting the EU and all these other countries just to kiss babies and say nice things to people
Nicola Sturgeon’s been a politician for thirty years and that’s a damn sight longer then most of the Twa.s in the HOC who open their big mouths and bump their gums about how important they are, Scotland’s FM knows when to talk and when to listen and she’s heard every word they’ve said and I think we can tell she has a very low opinion of them, exactly like most of us, but like the smart patient predator I believe her to be, when it’s time she’ll be like a velociraptor and tear the arses out of these people
Back to being the *Most dangerous woman in Britain* remember that
Of course I could be totally wrong …..but Nah!
I telt you I thought philosophy could take politics in a square go. The only problem is how to disseminate this knowledge.
link to researchgate.net
Critical Realism, Gender and Feminism
link to sociologicalimagination.org
Integrating Critical Realist and Feminist Methodologies: Ethical and Analytical Dilemmas
shura.shu.ac.uk/9155/1/Parr_Critical_Realist_Research.pdf
Analysing discourse as a causal mechanism
link to journals.sagepub.com
@RP&Yesindyref2 re: the ‘cunning plan’.
I am certainly on board with such thinking.
March 29th 10pm: Will be sitting at a quality, newly purchased Distillery only dram from Bruichladdich, amongst many others, after 2 distillery tours (bruich and Kilchoman on Day 1)
Such a cunning plan as mentioned, would be one helluva start to a 3 day whisky tour of Islay for 3 very pro indy diehards for sure.
“Celebration Saturday” at Bowmore, Caol Ila and bunnahabin has a nice ring to it.
One other thing I might add is the apparent minimal impact of devolution on the birth rate trend line, simply because – in my book at least – all the major economic levers of power – energy, international trade/development, immigration, foreign affairs, fiscal policy etc, are not in Scotland’s hands.
To win IndyRef2 we must be honest in pointing out devolution’s shortcomings compared with having the full power of independence to restore our country’s social and economic life.
Legerwood In aggregate Ireland’s largest export destination may be the EU but its largest single export destinations are the USA and the UK.
Fireproofjim Scotland cannot do any Deal with the EU until the Scottish people have voted for independence in an official referendum
Dave McEwan Hill I voted Remain
HYUFD
“Dave McEwan Hill I voted Remain”
So you respect the international rule-of-law and support the principle of universal human rights? Don’t be shy now, I’ve asked you umpteen times but still no solid reply. This has fundamental bearing to Scotland’s constitutional place in the world, so your continued honesty would be appreciated.
Thepnr @ 22:38:
Which makes it totally toxic to the anti-immigrant Leavers. Who have no need themselves to go anywhere. And the rest of them don’t like the notion of still paying for still being told what to do.
Some appeal, that.
Why should Scotland, Ireland and other countries only be allowed to do things which benefits England. Weird.
Ending freedom of movement was one of the key aims of those behind Brexit, IMHO.
@Dr Jim
There’s a very telling bit in the Indy Ref documentary, part 1 towards the end, Sturgeon and Moore talking about the Edinburgh Agreement negotiations.
@geeo
I suspect there’s a whole range of plans A-Z, all leading in the same direction, pick the one most appropriate to the way things go.
CameronBBrodie I respect the vote of the Scottish people to stay in the UK in 2014, yes
@yesindyref2, absolutely agree re: plans for all and any outcomes.
HYUFD
So you evade yet again and instead offer support of a vote that was problematic in the same way as the Brexit vote, which the Supreme Court felt to be constitutionally unsound. I’ll take that as a definite no then, Toryboy, you don’t support universal human rights. Bit of a biological determinist as well?
Aye aye aye it is highly probable that all of the necessary paperwork has already been drafted up for iScotland’s smooth transition onwards and upwards.
All that will be required is the necessary signatures.
That’ll apply to both us in the EU and Indy ’19.
Mmm, via Scot National twitter, I don’t like to mention names:
link to tradingeconomics.com
2017 Canada exports to the US – 76% of its exports.
Canada is NOT in the US.
Hey Dorothy, we’re free and easy in Glasgow’s southside tonight… Aye met up with the groovy cool people at Yes southside ra night in Shawlands. Excellent live music, thanks to all you muso’s.
Still in the southside ra now, but it’s no a rammy night the night, ma bud Eddy is coming over to Glasgow later tonight furra sesh, SO ahm saving myself for that.
In saying that… anything goes when aye return HOME. 😉
Mexico exports to the US – 80%.
link to tradingeconomics.com
Just change the country in that link, makes interesting reading for the political geek!
HYUFD @ 00:32,
So given everything that’s happened since then, you’ll surely respect it all the more next time when the people of Scotland choose independence with their eyes opened and a far better understanding of the actual facts.
Lovely.
Mmm, click the continents tab – Europe 56%
link to tradingeconomics.com
Ooops.
yesindyref2
Nice one. I’d linked to that site in the run-up to indyref1 but hadn’t kept the link. I’ve actually been putting off looking for it again. 😉
Nice to see that Daisy May is pushing to let the House of Commons have not one, not two but THREE votes on her dog’s breakfast of a ‘deal’, yet is determined that the electorate only gets ONE vote on the whole sorry Brexit fiasco.
Do the NHS do a “Hypocrisy Bypass”, or did she have to go Private do you think?
@ wull says at 10:28 pm … ”With leading SNP parliamentarians (in the different parliaments) seeming to be increasingly vocal about the sovereignty of the people in Scotland, and increasingly confident that we will not be dragged out of the EU against our will, I am beginning to think that a way of making this happen might already have been arranged with the EU leadership behind the scenes.”
Spot on Wull. We’ve got no idea of what’s actually going on behind the scenes but you can bet your bottom dollar that Nicola Sturgeon hasn’t missed a trick when visiting Europe, the UN and so on. There are also any number of Scottish experts, holding one key position or another, who are working for the EU. I mean to say this isn’t just about Nicola Sturgeon and Alyn Smith, as some numpties seem to think FGS. Alex Salmond, for one, had already identified a network of people across Europe, the World in fact, who were / are supportive of our Independence. As an example he was awarded the Coppieters Award in December 2016 (after the EURef result) in recognition of his “dedication and advocacy for Scotland’s right to redefine its political future among a European family of nations”.
”Speaking at the time (following meeting Alex Salmond), Mr Juncker said Scotland had “won the right to be heard in Brussels” and that he would listen carefully to what Ms Sturgeon had to say. But he stressed that he would not “interfere in an inner British process”.”
Alex said: “In the very near future the first minister of Scotland will be unveiling the Scottish strategy to retain our connections with Europe, in trade, in cultural and in politics. We have no intention of allowing our 1,000-year history as a European nation be severed by the failures of the Westminster political establishment. When that clarion call is issued then other Europeans should rally to Scotland’s cause.”
link to bbc.co.uk
They, the EU and UN, will know the ins and outs of the issue relating to the sovereignty of the Scottish people, our ”true Constitutional situation”, but will also realise that they can’t be seen to be interfering in the UK’s internal Constitutional affairs, especially at this time. They’ll also be aware of the fact that Scotland has manifold resources / assets but has been exploited and ripped off by Westminster. Additionally they’ve had a wee taste, over the last 3 years, of what we’ve had to put up with for over 300 years now and that includes MSM propaganda.
Many of us live in a wee Scottish cringey, depressive bubble whereby we think that no one else actually knows what’s going on in this country, have no knowledge of Scottish history, but I reckon that’s far from the truth. We’d need to be plain daft to think that the EU and UN don’t know that the United Kingdom is comprised of two Kingdoms and that the Scottish people, unlike their neighbours down south, are sovereign. Not know that we need a MAJORITY of these sovereign Scots to kick Westminster into the long grass for once and for all. To my mind they are just waiting for such an outcome. Keeping schtum until they too can show their hand.
You say Wull, ”And does that explain their newfound confidence that really and truly, we – Scotland – will not be leaving the EU after all, despite the hard, very hard Brexit that is hurtling relentlessly towards the UK? … Is there something afoot that is about to surprise us all?”
I don’t think that it’s a newfound confidence at all Wull, but more like part of their plan that just coincides with increasing clarity of the end game.
You say: ”And just imagine that there is already a plan for how to do this. Has there even perhaps been an arrangement all along. Something like … ‘Do your best to make the UK Brexit as soft as possible (Customs Union and Single Market), which will soften the blow for everyone, Scotland included, and the EU as well. But if that doesn’t work out, don’t worry … We’ll keep you in. … And if a majority of Scots opt for independence, we’ll make sure you gain full EU membership as quickly and smoothly as possible, if that’s what you want.’’
We’ll never know what’s actually been discussed / planned but the EU has known from day one that Scotland wanted to remain in the EU and as far as Brexit was concerned that Nicola Sturgeon wanted the UK, more so Scotland, to stay in the CU and SM. They are also very aware of the fact that Nicola Sturgeon has been the only key UK politician who has worked her backside off to keep the UK in the EU and I’m sure that they are EXTREMELY grateful for that, as too will be millions of Remainers throughout the UK. Grateful that she seems to be the only leader in all of this who is genuinely trying to prevent the decimation of the UK, the EU and Worldwide havoc.
As to our future with regard to the EU, I have no doubt that they will bend over backwards to accommodate us, because we are a REAL asset, but additionally they will want to give Westminster a right kick in the teeth for one (or more) reason or another. In particular a kick in the teeth in relation to doing their utmost to make sure that England is seen to fail due to leaving the EU, as they don’t want Brexit to set a successful precedence, especially as the EU is facing MANY further challenges right now. An issue that we rarely discuss on here.
In a ‘What now for the Lib dems?’ piece on the BBC website, Jonathan Blake claims that the party is joint-third largest at Westminster. Aye. Joint third only if you ignore the SNP, as usual.
And before I get off to bed just posting the latest from WGD. Well worth listening to.
‘Wee Ginger Dugcast – Friday 15 March 2019.’
link to weegingerdug.wordpress.com
@ Petra 2:22am
Yours and Wulls speculation about the possible secret communication and planning between the SNP and the EU’s big guns, concerning the future of Scotland sounds very plausible in fact more than plausible. When you think about it for a minute,it ticks all the boxes. I’m now sure that Nicola’s thought every scenario out and that we will get there.
Aw naw just came across something else!
Who says that SNP MP’s are a waste of space at Westminster? IMO, they are the ONLY political party in the UK that’s actually opposing the Tories (and Labour). Putting up a real ”Brexit” fight. Scaring the living daylights out of fearty May and giving the Labour Party a big riddy, as per Mhairi Black’s lingo. Politicians to be proud of. And by the way I don’t think that we tell them / show them how much we really appreciate them. How bad is that? So many so-called Independence supporters, even on this site, hell bent on running them into the ground.
Joanna Cherry (plus comments): ”If this is true next week in Parliament I will challenge whether this legal advice is new, or accurate or appropriate & I will say it’s not enough to justify ?@Theresa_may? having #MV3 on her heavily defeated deal #BrexitShambles
link to twitter.com
Wull, Dr Jim, Petra and A.Bruce,
I think you are on to something significant 🙂
I do believe Nicola Sturgeon has been working hard for Scotland on all of her visits to other countries in Europe, the Northern Realm, Canada, the States and even London.
And you are right, there could be alot more to these interactions with other World leaders than just behaving as if Scotland is already an Independent Nation.
I am very optimistic. Because we have a First Minister I trust.
The future cannot be predicted. The past can be recognised. The Polls always get it wrong in any case. More wrong than right, They are owned by multimillionaire Unionists and used to manipulate the result. To make money for criminal politicians and their associates,
An S30 can be gained through the Courts quite easily. It would not be refused after the undemocratic way Westminster has behave down though the Ages forever,
The danger is of being pushed to jump before the time is right. The SNP will know when to move. The best time to have an IndyRef is when it can be won. Demographics increasing all the time. It just needs a small swing when it is the time. This time it will be won. Hold the line.
In the words of the song. ‘Have a little patience’. The runes will align when the time comes. There is nothing wrong with getting it right. Scotland is going its own way in any case. Don’t be pushed to shove until the time is right.
Joanna Cherry getting Johnstone telt was priceless. Classic. He did not know where to look. Hung his head in shame. He has had a make over trying to take over as PM. He would not last theee weeks with the skeletons in his cupboards. A freak show. May runs away from Ian Blsckford and does not know were to look. Nowhere to hide for the wicked trying to destroy the economy. Not long before they are gone either way.
If May’s deal or no deal goes through. The DUP (30%)will be finished. Any return of any border in Ireland will lead to a United Ireland. Demographics it is going that way in any case. The people will not have another enforced border.. It is bad for business and society. They are sick of it.
The minority unionists supporters will have to stand in their own two feet and not be subsidised by the Westminster crooks. Right will win. After 100 years of conflict in Ireland. When the illegal Partition was introduced, Brexit will finally finish it. 2023. How many people have died and suffered for this criminal Westminster injustice. £Billions wasted. Squandered by Westminster unionists which could have been better spent. Bombing another country to bits for votes in Westminster supporting a bunch of crooks.
Scotland will finally have Democratic gov before 2028. 100 years after Universal Suffrage was introduced. Use the vote do not lose it. Vote SNP/SNP. Vote for Independence. Make sense of it.
QT another stitch up with an erratic criminal ranting rubbish in the audience. An actual drug dealer convicted of murdering a ‘friend’. Off their head on drugs by the look of it. Irrational rant. ‘ Get on with it’. ‘The people have voted’. From an actual convicted murderer. That is what the BBC has become. An avenue for convicted murderers to con the viewers. How Bruce can keep a straight face at the farce. Another multimillionaire tax evader wasting public money. Trying to con the viewers and the people. A lying sychophant for Westminster tax evading Cons. Lying for them. Liars always get found out.
Look at the LibDems once again. Another fiasco of corruption and a web of lies. Liars always get found out.
Reading the comments above by Petra and others regarding planning for indy with other countries.
I think it is very interesting. I would add, that given the utterly appalling behaviour of Westminster towards the EU and other countries around the world, I do not doubt that many would welcome Scotland as an independent nation.
Often I see and hear the Westminster clowns reeling off derogatory and abusive comments about the EU. It seems they do not realise that people across the EU dee and hear those comments. They know exactly what is going on in the Westminster clown village.
If I were the EU president or leader of an EU member state, I would be overjoyed, the very second England leaves the EU, to do as much damage to them as possible. People across Europe are heartily sick and tired of Westminster.
I do think London is in for one almighty shock, they day England leaves the EU.
A. Bruce says:
16 March, 2019 at 4:28 am
@ Petra 2:22am
Yours and Wulls speculation about the possible secret communication and planning between the SNP and the EU’s big guns, concerning the future of Scotland sounds very plausible in fact more than plausible. When you think about it for a minute,it ticks all the boxes. I’m now sure that Nicola’s thought every scenario out and that we will get there.
I hope you’re all correct, I really do, but it’s my subjective nature to be cynical, and it’s my objective experience to be let down. I am deeply, deeply mistrustful of those who say “trust me”.
You tick a lot of boxes there Wull, and it lifts my spirits to hope you’re spot on, but it wasn’t the UK’s membership of the EU which tied the hands of Europe, it was International Law which prevents the EU from interfering with the domestic politics of any country. Scotland has no International Personality, no interlocutor status in Brexit negotiations, and the EU will consider itself constrained by such circumstances. I am not persuaded the EU would engage in such clandestine negotiations.
The other reason I am cynical is the very strength of our Constitutional position. It is sound, it is lawful, it is unalterable. What does it gain from such a degree of secrecy? Perhaps I’ve answered my own question, and the EU is conducting talks it properly shouldn’t. But even if that was true, where is all the accordant Legal preparity work which befits Scotland’s emancipation from the UK and the seamless integration with the EU? Is all of that secret too? Or just not happening at all?
I suspect the truth might be somewhere in between. There may be talks and negotiations ongoing, but at a lower and “sub-sovereign” level.. The possibilities are tantalising, and I want so much to believe, but my doubts are awakened too.
If the SNP is on point Constitutionally, then how do we reconcile the soft Brexit strategy which was so far at odds with the sovereign edict to remain? Was this a ruse and misdirection, or evidence the SNP wasn’tas Constitutionally sure footed as many believe? They got it wrong in my opinion. The SNP is a political party, and who could blame it for steering us towards a path to independence they could control, over and above Sovereignty at any cost? It’s Independence I want. I don’t give a shit about politicians.
So as I fluctuate between optimism and pessimism, I draw some comfort from the fact the SNP will have to do “something” before the Article 50 deadline, simply for their own political survival. If the open goal of Brexit has been squandered, then how can I put it, the polls in Scotland will need revised, and that will depress the lot of us.
I’m at the “don’t tell me, show me” stage. Less than two weeks to get this right… I’ve had enough tiresome intrigue. Let us get this thing done.
“ robertknight@0213am” , May pushing for 3 votes on her “ dogs breakfast “ deal . Also don’t forget the Scottish referendum “ now is not the time” and never will be as far as May and the junta is concerned. The wrong result for May , until she gets the “ right result”. What a hypocrite.
Links
link to gov.scot
link to snp.org
link to alynsmith.eu
link to theorkneynews.scot
The Oil and Gas Industry in Scotland will be one of the hardest hit industries after Brexit, regardless of whether a deal is approved or not! WATCH HERE to see some highlights from my speech or click the link to watch the full session.
link to twitter.com
“Mrs Mays Brexit deal, take 3!”
Technical extension to article 50 date to be sought from a very annoyed European Union.
Apologies to Scotland’s space pioneers Skyrora, for indy car suggesting the new launch pad in Sutherland might be a UK red herring.
Holyrood yesterday debated Scotland’s nascent indigenous Space Programme as a Black Arrow Landed outside the parliament building
link to facebook.com
link to thoughtcontrolscotland.com
Angus MacNeil’s letter to Fox
link to parliament.uk
Norrie Hunter and Graeme McCormick discuss the idea of Annual Ground Rent
link to yescowal.scot
link to athousandflowers.net
link to ruthwishart.scot
A week from now thousands of ordinary citizens from across Scotland will assemble in the centre of Glasgow to stand up for a new and better Scotland extracted from the chaos, intolerance, hypocrisy and ignorant chauvinism which the British Parliament so clearly now represents.
link to archive.is
link to thedrinksbusiness.com
link to tarffadvertiser.blogspot.com
link to theeditgcu.com
link to helensburghsnp.scot
link to chrisgreybrexitblog.blogspot.com
One of the more painful things about being an international lawyer during Brexit is watching spivs and grifters like Rees-Mogg try and game the system. Herewith, a thread.
link to twitter.com
link to thecanary.co
No long Brexit delay without election of British MEPs, says leaked paper
link to archive.is
Week in Review: Talking out both sides of their mouth
link to archive.is
The climate strikers’ urgency has inspired me to call a UN summit
link to archive.is
Interserve to go into administration after rescue deal rejected
link to archive.is
link to universalcreditsuffer.com
link to opendemocracy.net
link to independent.co.uk
link to rte.ie
An act of Parliament is required to strip a lord of their peerage.: Strip David Steele of his life peerage. – Petition
link to change.org
Brexit ferry contracts could cost government millions more
link to archive.is
1. Day 10 of Westminster hearings at #CSAinquiry – my round-up in two parts. Part 1 in 24 tweets. Part 2 tomorrow.
link to twitter.com
link to bellingcat.com
Let me quickly explain why the Christchurch mosque shooting affects many of us, not just Muslim communities.
link to twitter.com
@Breeks
The UK is the member state of the EU, and the EU is therefore unable to officially talk to Scotland, which is not a member state of the EU.
Can I play devil’s advocate and ask
Is it likely that lots of backroom shenanigans between Sturgeon and the EU could have been taking place without any of it being leaked?
Or exposed by those who would look unfavourably on such shenanigans?
I’ve often wondered why anyone would want to be an advocate for the devil.
What we CAN be sure of, is that Nicola Sturgeon has been speaking up for Scotland in many lands outwith our shores.
Her clarity, openness and honesty will bare fruit.
@mike cassidy
On the other hand, if the unionists did get to hear of anything like that, would they want it plastered all over the media, destroying half their FUD case?
mike Cassidy– if the FM has had discussions would not some information be in the public domain. Either that Alistair Carmichael and the lib dems would make it up.
But why use the term shenanigans? If the FM has had discussions with EU representatives or proxies , why not?
The RUK’s won’t speak up for Scotland.
For that matter the RUK Chancellor meets with the DUP and their connections with Dark Money. May still refuses to release the analysis of what her “brexit” will do to Scotland’s economy. Shenanigans? ask the cartel fishing groups with the tories- gone all quiet. Tells you something is happening – what deals are the tories up to? Will Labour in Scotland support the tories or support Scotland’s vote? Time will tell.
Going back to yesterday’s above discussion of Macaulay, my book Sikunder Burnes presents pretty compelling evidence he was shagging both his sisters. Something Britnat historians have known but hidden for centuries.
Mike Cassidy@8.58am
“backroom shenanigans” that is what the Britnats did when they conjured up the infamous vow in 2014 which they subsequentlyreneged on.
Poor choice of words by Mike Cassidy.
@ Craig Murray – shock!
@ Nana – the Thousand Flowers site is interesting. It keeps tabs on the far right resurgence and its attempts to get a foothold in Scotland.
Thinking about the alleged incident in Alloa, Luke Carpetbagger Graham’s “Point of Order” which was actually a smear, This article about the far right adopting Scottish Independence as a means of gaining traction is worth a read.
link to athousandflowers.net
yesindyref2 says:
16 March, 2019 at 8:13 am
@Breeks
The UK is the member state of the EU, and the EU is therefore unable to officially talk to Scotland, which is not a member state of the EU.
Article 4.2 of the Lisbon treaty states that the EU shall respect the essential state functions of its members, including territorial integrity and maintaining law and order. The EU has no power over how a member state decides to organise itself or its constituent regions. When Scotland failed to make its case for being included in Brexit negotiations, the EU was bound by UK protocols that were judged to be internal to the UK.
However, for the EU to interfere with the internal politics of any sovereign state, and don’t forget Westminster Sovereignty is the recognised sovereignty of the UK, would open the EU to accusations of external interference akin to regime change, interfering with elections or even encouraging secessionism or a coup d’etat. I don’t believe the EU would even go there.
That might be a reason for secrecy, but it’s more likely that such secret negotiations aren’t happening at all. If anything is happening and meetings are occurring, it’s all “off the record” stuff. Yes it’s true, with the UK on course to leave the EU, perhaps there are sensitive and borderline issues under discussion, but nothing anybody can put a signature to.
This is the whole point I’ve been banging on about. Scotland needs to present the EU with an interface which the EU can formally engage with. Legal Personality must be secured. Interlocutor status must be acknowledged. Scotland must get a voice that boasts lawful legitimacy, and our Sovereignty is the obvious route to achieving this. Scotland’s Constitutional Sovereignty should have been central to Brexit since the referendum first created the Constitutional watershed of conflicting sovereignties, and the toys should have come out the pram properly when Scotland was excluded from Brexit negotiations. Had we done so, we would not find ourselves 13 days from catastrophe idly speculating on what “might” happen.
It is only Scotland, and Scotland alone, who can make the case for Scotland’s Sovereignty to be recognised. Nobody else will, because nobody else can. This is NOT about democracy. This IS about initiative, but all we get is seemingly interminal procrastination while time runs away from us.
It’s absolutely terrific to hear what we’re hearing from Ian Blackford, I just wish we’d started hearing it back in 2016, and the sentiment had been made manifest with test case legislation secured through the ECJ which would have provided the EU with an interface for direct negotiations with Scotland.
@Breeks
“it was International Law which prevents the EU from interfering with the domestic politics of any country… I am not persuaded the EU would engage in such clandestine negotiations.”
I believe that these “clandestine negotiations” do not constitute any such interference with the domestic politics of Scotland/UK, on the basis that they can have no impact unless and until Scotland takes the step of proclaiming its freedom from Westminster.
Until that happens they would simply be an example of speculative forward planning, an entirely right and proper thing for any sensible political organisation to carry out.
Breeks @ 10.58 am
“”When Scotland failed to make its case for being included in Brexit negotiations, the EU was bound by UK protocols that were judged to be internal to the UK.””
…………
Scotland did not ‘fail’ to make its case for inclusion in the UK’s negotiations with the EU. The SG argued the case very well but the UK Gov said no – as it has on numerous other occasions when matters Central to Scotland’s interests have been discussed eg fishing.
Breeks, first, Scotland did not ‘fail’ to make its case in the EU negotiations, but as you know, Scotland was shut out. And the EU know that too. Alyn Smith, SNP MEP is a powerful and continually hard working and incredibly effective voice for Scotland in the EU.
What we all heard in 2016 was a voice of welcome and acceptance and appreciation that was, at that time, unique to Scotland, unique to our Scottish Government, voiced by our First Minister, Nicola Sturgeon 🙂
And yes, I agree with you, it IS absolutely terrific to hear what we are hearing from the leader of the SNP in Westminster, Ian Blackford.
Yes, isn’t Ian Blackford awesome 🙂 as are so many of our SNP speakers.
What we are witnessing is a gathering of evidence and a building of power of argument, akin to a gathering of storm.
This could not have happened before now.
We have the solid YES vote which will not budge.
The YES vote can only grow as more and more of the youthful vote join the call for Independence.
And what the SNP are working towards is helping the previously ‘no voters’ to see that there IS a viable alternative now and that they are so heartily welcome!
Previously ‘no voters’ hopefully can now see that it is ok to find a new way to the Scotland that they too would wish to live in 🙂
Ps Breeks, this is a lively discussion. We do still love you =)
@Breeks
Sturgeon: “Given a hypothetical case where a member state wishes to legally leave the EU, but a part of it legally wants to remain in the EU within the member state’s Constitution, what would the answer be to the following questions? 1). …”
EU Rep: “Given that hyopthetical case, the answer to 1). would be …”
Sturgeon: “Thanks for that, very interesting”.
Get a grip.
Ghillie says:
16 March, 2019 at 12:17 pm
Breeks, first, Scotland did not ‘fail’ to make its case in the EU negotiations, but as you know, Scotland was shut out.
If it had made its case, it would not, could not, have been
“shut out”. The definition of sovereignty is you cannot be overruled. Westminster is the only “sovereign” interlocuter recognised by the EU.
It is troubling that so many people seem to struggle with the concept.
Time for some more International Relations Theory and perhaps some Philosophy of Education? Sorry for the length of this post but folk don’t click links and you’re unlikely to get this info elsewhere.
link to oxfordre.com
eprints.lse.ac.uk/12671/1/The_primary_institutions_of_international_society_(LSERO).doc.pdf
link to researchgate.net
One meaning of shenanigans is mischievous activities.
What could be more mischievious – if it’s been happening – than the FM and her advisors working away beneath Westminster’s radar!
Steambam @ 03:30,
Having a peek at that article, I see it has subsequently been revised to “fourth-largest”. Someone must have had a word.
But a very revealing wee slip nonetheless.
(BTW – a great moniker there!)
Room for more International Relations Theory perspectives on Brexit and perhaps some biopsychosocial stuff? Again, sorry for the length of this post.
link to psa.ac.uk
Brexit: Global Perspectives
link to e-ir.info
Brexit: Critical Juncture in the UK’s International Development Agenda?
link to degruyter.com
Path dependence and routines: a threat to capability development
link to degruyter.com
Those interested in the Edinburgh tram extension might be interested in this
link to theherald.com.au