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Wings Over Scotland

We told you so #2

Posted on September 23, 2014 by

Even we’re surprised how fast these are coming true.


Stay tuned for more. They’re on the way.

(Here are some of the times we told you so.)

Nick Clegg Signs Another Pledge

Diluting the poisoned chalice

How Scotland will be robbed

Joining the dots

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  1. 24 09 14 02:05

    Will 2014 be the year of Independence for Scotland? - Page 1107

954 to “We told you so #2”

  1. Black Douglas says:


    Just typical divide and rule tactics by the Tories and Pravda, just don’t believe a word either of them says. 😀

    Becoming a republic is a fight for another day.

  2. Capella says:

    @Jim McIntosh 1.22
    Apologies. You are right.
    I do think that the 500,000 people who think that they will get Devo Max could turn to yes if nothing happens within the timetable publicised.
    It’s worth looking at the positive indicators in which I would include the 10% who made up their minds “longer ago than a year” i.e. another 200,000 who may simply not have had the right information.
    I agree that approx 60% of NO voters (1.2 million) are probably a lost cause (but will pass away in time). That leaves a healthy 3 million potential yesses. Doable.

  3. Ann says:

    Time to pick a couple of “Don’t blame me I voted YES T-Shirt” for daughter and me.

  4. bookie from hell says:



    new powers not good enough,fight scottish election on a federal referendum

  5. Big Jock says:

    I spoke to Airdrie savings bank today. Apparently they are very Anyway they do current accounts but you must go to the branches to set one up. They are trying to sort out online banking shortly. Can I encourage everyone to move their accounts there when they can. I hate being threatened by my own bank about how I should vote. Let’s hurt these charlatans like RBS and Standard life.

  6. James Dow says:

    Robert Louis reply. Would all those false flag operatives we have to be careful about be anonymous. How do you apologise to people without names? What is the childish point you are trying to make with the Jim Dow reference.
    I thought you might have been more creative perhaps, Hamish Dhu. You say people have multiple reasons for being anonymous WOW

  7. Ken500 says:

    An Independent Republic it is. Alex Salmond for President. Cameron has just sealed the deal. Cameron is a complete and utter lying disgrace.

  8. A.N.Surgent says:

    Bugger(the Panda)

    I`m beginning to doubt that I even voted.

  9. James DowAvoice from the diaspora says:

    Ricky Duncan I would say your surname is as Scottish as my own. And a good one historically.
    Regards James

  10. TJenny says:

    Rev just tweeted:

    ‘A most enjoyable day with @vonny_bravo, @jackfostr and @jwdevoy. Exciting plans are afoot.’

    Ooh. Excited. 🙂

  11. Stevie boy says:
    23 September, 2014 at 5:53 pm
    Tv licence just cancelled and feel the better for doing so!!

    Anyone else fancy it then the number is..

    0300 7906092

    I enjoyed telling them why I was cancelling it


    Stevie Boy a good positive post. Now tell me when you phoned the BBC/Capita did you give them your name or did you just give your address and The Present Occupier?

  12. Robert Peffers says:

    @muttley79 says: 23 September, 2014 at 6:00 pm:

    “Not really surprised that John Wilson has resigned now. It was rumoured in the aftermath of the NATO decision that he was seriously unhappy.”

    He may yet be a good deal more unhappy when the next election comes round. Going by the over 50,000 new members of the SNP his chances for re-election are slim. The only problem being that whoever the SNP candidate who stands against him may struggle with Wilson drawing voters away from the SNP and letting a Labour candidate in.

  13. muttley79 says:


    They say time is a healer. People just need a rest. Recharge batteries etc.

  14. westie7 says:

    RE: John Wilson, as with other List MSPs who have quit, the seat should be vacated as it was only won due to the public voting for an SNP MSP

  15. TJenny says:

    Gets purse ready on stand-by. 😉

  16. Robert Louis says:

    Agree with other regarding Lizzie the 1st. I was pretty ambivalent before, but after her interference and today’s rubbish, the entire monarchy can go swivel. I am now a republican.

    Time to end her role in the opening of the Scottish Parliament.


    We need some fun. Where’s Dateline Scotland when you need it?

  17. muttley79 says:

    @Robert Louis

    Agreed. We need to get Briony (sp) Laing back!

  18. Bugger (the Panda) says:

    A. N. Surgent

    Maybe you did but it didn’t count?

  19. Wee Alex says:

    bookie from hell says:
    23 September, 2014 at 5:42 pm
    SNP majority 1

    I’d guess his vote (John Wilson) will be 99% SNP., he has just fought a campaign to win Independence so his heart is in the right place.

    I’m with everyone who sees Devo Max As Stepping stone, problem is we ain’t gonna get it. Devo micro is the most we can expect.

  20. Grouse Beater says:

    Stuart might want to pick up the recorded conversation – Cameron with Blomberg – of how he and Queenie crowed with joy (she ‘purred’) over the vote…

    That’s just three of the people the Nos decided are better to run Scotland than the people who live here.

    Others witnessed are high ranking Wastemountain Labour MPs who ‘punched the air with glee’ on hearing RBS announce it too had contracted Ebola.

  21. Nana Smith says:

    Anyone watching goofy Ed shouting he’s going to save the NHS. Oh my aching sides.

  22. the Penman says:

    I see Tommy Sheridan has posted a personal view on Facebook that all Yes supporters should vote SNP in 2015 & 2016 to force another referendum, then go back to their other party preferences for after 2020. Hmmm.

  23. john king says:

    Ed Miliband says
    “our country nearly broke up”
    He really doesnt get it does he?
    until you get that there is no point in the union.

  24. jeremy the lawyer says:

    To be fair to Wilson, I cancelled my snp membership ages ago over NATO and joined the Greens. I also wasn’t overly enamoured with the idea of a currency union as I thought we should have our own.

    That does not mean I agree with everything the party I am a member of says or does but it means I support them in general. If they took on a policy that I couldn’t stomach I’d leave them as well.

    I don’t want to have politicians who always tow the party line. If that’s what you want then join the labour party. I want politicians to be free thinkers and have agreement on issues and make policy on that. Not do as they are told. If they are forced to do what they don’t believe in then they should leave the party and vote on matters on an issue by issue matter. He’ll probably still agree with most of what is put forward and vote for it but can do so with a clean conscious. What may be good for the party may not be good for your constituents and they voted for him.

    In an ideal situation we’d have consensus politics and no need for parties at all but that’ll never happen.

    I do believe that party whips should be abolished. We let people vote on how they wanted on gay marriage and it still passed even without support of guys like John Mason. It should be the same for everything. A budget would still be able to get through as long as it was good.

  25. galamcennalath says:

    When they come up with their DevoWhatever package, I think it should be put to a referendum in Scotland and not forced on us.

    If it’s a poisoned chalice, we can reject it. If it’s true DevoMax and secures all domestic spending and politics independent to London, then we will probably accept it.

    A good stepping stone to independence for those of us who still want that in the future.

  26. jeremy the lawyer says:

    Oh, and to add I’ll be voting SNP for my constituency seat to oust john pentland but will vote green as my list msp to hopefully get them a seat also.

    Loyalty is to the people. They are the ones you must do right by, not the party.

  27. James123 says:

    Previously I didn’t mind having the Queen as the head of state in an independent Scotland, actually to be honest I couldn’t give two shits as there were more pressing matters to deal with. But she interfered so she can fuck right off along with the rest of British establishment.

  28. Restlessnative says:


    Google “

    Excellent cause as well.Hope its of use.

  29. Clarinda says:

    Well the unionists in the Holyrood debate this afternoon were getting a bit repetitive with their 5% assumption on “the clear and settled will of the Scottish people” as they emphasised this was a final decision – “for ever” some said.

    I still hold the words of Mr Salmond who claimed before and after the referendum that a large number of No voters were merely “deferred Yessers”. I can only presume he knew if Yes had won and demonstrated the robust nature of Independence that that would convert many. However, if No won – with the inevitable backlash, and now the disintegration of vows, promises and the uncoordinated debacle of three unionist leaders without a Scottish cause – Mr Salmond’s prophesy of “deferred Yessers” may be even stronger.

    What must the unionists think of the spiralling numbers of SNP, Green and SSP membership.
    Has the ‘S’Lab recruitment burst through the 17 high tide level of last month’s tsunami yet?

  30. Alastair Wright says:

    My caption for the picture ‘ Brave Dave expresses joyous amazement that so many Scots believed .his wizard wheeze’

  31. caledonia says:

    what do you think of this ie is it a good idea to let him know what he has done

    or is it to late

  32. Brian McHugh says:

    1.6 million people are going to rise out of a very short period of depression and enter a whole new phase of aspirational progress.

    Exciting times ahead 🙂

  33. Rock says:

    If we want to become independent before all our resources have been stolen from us, we will have to turn into Spartans NOW.

    Start hitting them where it hurts – their pockets.

    No TV, no newspapers.

    Start boycotting the likes of Tesco, Asda and Morrisons in favour of Lidl and Aldi – they don’t have a vested interest in Scotland remaining dependent.

    Use any money saved to help the poorest of our society.

    Do not engage with any of the MSM. Let all our work happen at the grassroots level, undetected by the MSM.

    There is a minority of the elderly who have been longing for independence for a long time but the rest are British nationalists proud of the British Empire – don’t waste any time or money trying to convince them.

    Also ignore the middle class – most of them will never be convinced.

    Let us concentrate most of our efforts on the working class and the poor. Once we have their confidence, they will not let us down. And unlike Labour, we will never betray them.

  34. Chic McGregor says:

    T Jenny
    Sounds good.

  35. Ron Maclean says:


    Great idea. Might even get the no voters away from Dr. Who long enough to take responsibility for their behaviour.

  36. fred blogger says:

    have complied.
    can i still listen to radio 6, travelling folk and celtic connections?

  37. bookie from hell says:

    establishment defo spooked 45% voted YES

    we can only move on once Devo powers are in writing,explaining what they are

    ruth Davidson nearly had a nearly had a nervous breakdown,when she said 45% ????

  38. liz says:

    @Nana Smith – that was a good read by Ian McWhirter.

    This could be why we have people trying to distract us with the recount.

    We need to hold the three stooges to their vow – they need to give us everything we ask for or again this could make the indy ref vote null and void.

  39. Andy-B says:


    I do my best to avoid giving monies to those who tried to scaremonger, ASDA being one of the culprits, I certainly won’t shop there.

    Lidl and Aldi, doing well now in Scotland.

  40. ScottieDog says:

    Just some thoughts,
    We shouldn’t be trying to alienate/chastise the NO voters for all the ills that might come our way as part of the UK. That will just push them away. We should be trying to win them over and encourage them with solid ideas and a robust vision of what the future could be.

    Will the Greens sell out on some their policies just to bolster a united YES party? I would think not, and why should they?

    The GE is about policies and by all means let the independence issue simmer in the background but when Westminster are dishing out shitty policies we need some appealing ones as an alternative.

    On currency I do believe the currency union policy let us down. What we need to do is tell people how the uk could run its monetary system differently, for example stop allowing banks to create money, have more debt free money in circulation, which is The biggest reason for inequality.Now we wouldn’t really expect the city of London to clap their hands at this, but we could offer it as a better alternative if we were to become an independent country.

    What we can certainly do NOW is educate people about alternative currency and exchange methods (this is happening all over the world) and get them comfortable and up to speed with it. Surely then you would find a far less scared electorate when it comes to going it alone.

    Let’s give people ideas, rather than a piece of our mind.

  41. Col says:

    The debate has moved on. I think the pro indy parties must use this opportunity to talk of the benefits of having every power that indy could have delivered. The Scottish public must come out of this thinking the more powers the better and be under no illusion that unless we actually get devo max (for now) then anything else is just a sticky plaster on an open wound.
    Scotland as a country should have full powers over its economy and leave say defence and foreign affairs to Westminster. With this in peoples minds it would be a good time to attack having Trident and endless wars in our name. Independence is the norm, not this messed up relationship. Oh yeah, apparently Britain is all of a sudden broken again now that the referendum is in the past. How daft are we?

  42. Onwards says:

    Regarding an SNP name change..

    Anyone know the format of the Westminster ballot papers?
    Are taglines or slogans allowed after the party names?

    I am thinking the SNP should campaign under:


    This covers all angles – Devo-max, Federalism or Independence.

    Realistically, we will probably have to work towards devo-max or federalism as a first step.

    30 SNP MP’s could provide the balance of power, then Scotland has some power again.

  43. Rock says:


    “Re electoral fraud…Bobby Sands, an IR hunger striker, stood against an Ulster Unionist Party candidate (the seat had been Unionist held) and WON.”

    What about the more recent and closer to home example of Glenrothes?

  44. GrantMacD says:


    You are dead right on the currency thing but the alternative was to point out that Sterling was going to collapse whilst an independent Scottish currency would benefit considerably.

    Unfortunately, this would have turned it into (what it really has become anyway) a Scotland v England thing.

    Interesting to note, my neighbours on either side retired here from down south. Both houses have been on the market for a year now as they intend move back south. Bet they voted no anyway.

  45. fred blogger says:

    how about the coop?

  46. Robert Peffers says:

    @Robert Louis says: 23 September, 2014 at 6:33 pm:

    “I was pretty ambivalent before, but after her interference and today’s rubbish, the entire monarchy can go swivel. I am now a republican.”

    Well, Robert Louis, I too have remained ambivalent on the subject of Monarchy but here’s a thought.

    If Scotland, in view of Her Majesty’s alleged taking sides in the matter, by her Prime Minister who is also taking sides of one Kingdom against the other, were to be removed as Queen of Scots then, by default, a republic of Scotland could not remain a part of a Kingdom, united or otherwise.

    If the Queen of Scots has expressed an opinion against her Scottish Kingdom can we not invoke the Declaration of Arbroath : –

    Yet if he(she) should give up what he(she) has begun, and agree to make us or our kingdom subject to the King of England or the English, we should exert ourselves at once to drive him(her) out as our enemy and a subverter of his(her) own rights and ours, and make some other man(woman/man) who was well able to defend us our King(queen); for, as long as but a hundred of us remain alive, never will we on any conditions be brought under English rule. It is in truth not for glory, nor riches, nor honours that we are fighting, but for freedom — for that alone, which no honest man gives up but with life itself.

    Should I now be careful as there could be a visit from afar, (London), and a little holiday in the Tower at her Majesty’s Pleasure awaiting?

  47. Gallowglass says:

    Why are we still talking about SNP name change?

    Have the SNP said they are going to change their name?

  48. Rock says:

    James Dow,

    “My name is James Dow and I live in Melbourne Australia and can be easily found for anyone who wishes.”

    Fortunately for you the British establishment’s secret services will not be too interested in you.

  49. Colin Church says:

    Weeks of SLAB revisionism ahead. “Country” (guess Ed means UK) is apparently broken and not better together UKOK dream. Oh, and the NHS needs saving. It not being under threat was a story only for us Scots. Independence fiscal black hole meaning austerity plus now replaced by LAB austerity super max – child benefits, pension age, misery minimum wage increase…

  50. Big Jock says:

    Far from killing the nationalist movement. In actual fact the referendum has awoken old style public engagement in the cause. During the Holyrood years the SNP concentrated on government of a devolved country. Before that it was win or bust at Westminster. Now we are back to campaign at Westminster on a ticket of independence but with a realistic chance of success. Not sure why people are concentrating on Holyrood 2016. We already have a majority. A majority at Westminster is a mandate for independence. No ifs or buts we can demand independence or declare it.

  51. Charles Edward says:

    Heard today from a neighbour, the carer who had the morning shift was in tears.
    She had been helping with 3 elderly people who had voted no because they had been visited by No campaigners and told they would lose their pensions with independence.
    Lies and broken promises.

    Better together tactics – before the vote and now we see after..

    We need a clear and simple political strategy which we can explain to all reasonable people in order to remove the poison in the system.

    I’ve heard it said people are splitting up and squabbling over best tack. Allow this to happen, it’s natural. We will all come together again when the call comes, for as long as we have the above situations to suffer we can not go back.

  52. Big Jock says:

    Also the trolls are back here. Someone posted that we should reveal our names and come out of the barricades. In other words we should not be afraid to stand proud. Whoever it was get to f##ck how naive do you think we are.

    Then there are the concern trolls who discourage everything from joining groups,to campaigning to talking about rigged votes. They are trying to stop us and divide us. I have a feeling something is being covered up. I don’t think we are too far away from the truth. Someone somewhere will have loose tongues.

  53. Blair paterson says:

    Sorry to go O.T. But i have just heard the media claim that 2 thirds of the public agree to getting involved in the the fight against Isis where the hell do they get these figures from? These so called polls should be made illegal they do not in any way represent people’s views they are a so far legal way to tell lies and distort the truth ,if they want to legitimately say 2thirds of the people support more action then the only way to do that would be through a referendum and talk about democracy a party with 1M.P. In Scotland is going to us involved in more wars he’ll mend you no voters see how feel when our young men come back wounded or in body bags

  54. john king says:

    Robert Peffers says
    “So you do believe that Elvis still works down the Chip shop then?”

    Oh puleeeessse
    Everyone knows thats true,
    I’ve seen him myself! 🙂

  55. Balaaargh says:


    Glenrothes voted YES. As did Kirkcaldy so I am told.

  56. Bugger (the Panda) says:

    Has Lamont resigned or just another bliddy rumour?

  57. fred blogger says:

    Charles Edward
    my fear is that a lot of pensioners were intimidated in a similar manner, we will hear more as time goes on!
    which is why i was outraged @ the revelations that PV’s were “sampled” weeks before polling day.
    never again will i vote by post.

  58. Re threatening pensioners etc I am sure there must be media coverage of this such as Brown on his save Britain campaign as it might be an idea to collect them as proof.

  59. Re threatening pensioners etc I am sure there must be media coverage of this such as Brown on his save Britain campaign as it might be an idea to collect them as proof.

  60. Harry McAye says:

    Rock, I don’t recall Morrisons doing much wrong although I did stay away from their doors for severalweeks after seeing my local shop covered in Union flags to promote BGT, yet no saltires for the CW games. The main bad stores were Asda and Marks&Spencers, thought the former boss of Sainsbury, Justin King, also spoke out but I wouldn’t hold that against them. I have also just discovered the joys of Lidl. Can’t get everything I want, they don’t seem to do cooking oil for example, but I haven’t been to Asda since.

  61. HandandShrimp says:

    Given there are so many new members John Wilson may have jumped the gun over NATO. There is nothing to say that conference might not restore the neutrality position.

  62. Rock says:

    Proud Cybernat,

    “A question: if Scotland returns a majority of Indy Alliance MPS in May 2015 GE and they declare UDI, will the EU, NATO, UN etc recognise this as a legitimate vote?”

    We won’t need to declare UDI. Scotland will become ungovernable by Westminster. They will be left with no choice but to vote for an Independence of Scotland Act.

    For every election at every level from now on, independence supporters must put forward only a single candidate to avoid splitting the vote. Our opponents won’t be able to do that for their tribal reasons.

    I am still looking forward to independence in March 2016.

  63. Paul Wilson says:

    Anyone else having problems with posting?

  64. john king says:

    Rock says
    “If we want to become independent before all our resources have been stolen from us, we will have to turn into Spartans NOW.”

    Ahhh thats not fair

    Where do I sign?

  65. Bugger (the Panda) says:

    Paul Wilson

    Probably the site is under a sustained attack, again.

  66. Robert Peffers says:

    john king says: 23 September, 2014 at 6:44 pm:

    Ed Miliband says
    “our country nearly broke up”
    He really doesnt get it does he?
    until you get that there is no point in the union.

    Sigh! No John we are CERTAINLY NOTa Union of two countries. The title of the Union is, “The United Kingdom”, and there are only two kingdoms signatory to that Treaty Of Union. The fact is that the Kingdom of England that signed that treaty had annexed Wales as part of the Kingdom Of England in 1284 by, “The Statute of Rhuddlan”. It had also annexed as part of the Kingdom Of England, the Kingdom of Ireland in 1542 vby, “The Crown Of Ireland Act”. Which is the reason that both annexed countries did not need to sign the Treaty of Union but most certainly became part of the United Kingdom in 1706/7.

    Got it now, John? K-I-N-G-D-O-M spells Kingdom and C-O-U-N-T-R-Y spells country and they mean two different things. Which is the reason the United Kingdom Parliament is a legally bipartite KINGDOM but Westminster is now also the de facto parliament of the COUNTRY of England as well as being the United Kingdom Parliament. The trouble is that it is now the Country of England that is devolving English Powers to Scotland and that’s why the whole sheebang is such a god awful mess. There can be no peace until the Country of England Parliament gets itself out of the United Kingdom Parliament and stops acting like the master race treating the other three countries like her vassal states.

  67. Ian Mor says:

    Woo! At least the .scot domain names have gone live now.

    Better grab !

  68. Iain Gray's Subway Lament says:

    @Blair paterson

    “Sorry to go O.T. But i have just heard the media claim that 2 thirds of the public agree to getting involved in the the fight against Isis where the hell do they get these figures from?”

    YouGov have done a couple of laughable push/poll skewed questions on it so I would guess from there.

  69. Willie John says:

    Much has been said about the currency and not having a bank of last resort. Why do we need a bank of last resort? We already have a multitude of well run banks (which do not create money). They are called Credit Unions. Remove some of the restrictions on them such as the maximum amount we can hold in them and open up membership to a much wider membership. Then let the banks threaten, bluster and move their brass plates!

  70. STARLAW says:

    Time to remind everyone . . we don’t live in a Democracy . . we live in a MONARCHY . . look it up in a dictionary, not far removed from DICTATORSHIP look it up too. Monarchs power in Britain has been usurped by parliament but we are still a Monarchy.

  71. Onwards says:


    Probably too late to consider changing names at this point, despite the ‘nationalist’ problem.

    But we need an inclusive slogan at least, describing what the purpose of the SNP is, and making it appeal to as many voters as possible.

    As Tommy Sheridan is urging – Rally around the SNP and don’t split the vote.

    as a slogan or tagline, is inclusive, and covers both those who want to see the SNP focus on gaining Devo-max OR independence.

    Unionist parties are going to try and avoid genuine Devo-Max, as it is too close to independence.

    But limited devolution powers are going to leave lots of No voters unhappy that they were conned.

    BIG problem for London parties over this issue.

  72. john king says:

    Robert Peffers says
    Should I now be careful as there could be a visit from afar, (London), and a little holiday in the Tower at her Majesty’s Pleasure awaiting?

    Dont worry Robert,
    theres a lift. 🙂

  73. Big Jock says:

    Cameron’s quip about suing the pollsters tongue in cheek. Closer to the truth than his jest suggests!

  74. Croompenstein says:

    Can someone let me know where the result breakdown to individual towns can be viewed ?

  75. Big Jock says:

    John you never know with these Bastards!

  76. scotlandthebrave says:

    TIt for tat 1 SNP seat to replace 1 Labour seat pick your people lets get started.

  77. Calgacus says:

    Is there a protest against this sort of thing in Glasgow on Saturday at noon?

    (With apologies to Doug Daniel and Margo)

  78. Luigi says:

    There is no point in the SNP changing it’s name now. It did not stop them winning a landslide in 2011. People are not daft – they know what the SNP is all about.

    Besides, the MSM would have a field day – the new party would be portrayed as hiding something, and it would still labelled as a nasty nat seperatist anyway.

    People are getting used to voting for (and now joining) the SNP – if it ain’t broke……..

  79. Ron Maclean says:

    The constitutional aims of the SNP are:

    (a) Independence for Scotland…

    (b) the furtherance of all Scottish interests.

    There doesn’t seem to be any reason not to discuss more powers with Lord Smith. The fun will start when the powers begin to be watered down and there’s calls for the SNP to walk away.

  80. john king says:

    Harry McAye says
    “Rock, I don’t recall Morrisons doing much wrong although I did stay away from their doors for severalweeks after seeing my local shop covered in Union flags to promote BGT, yet no saltires for the CW games”

    Add to that pumping out at full blast Four Lions followed by Vindaloo and you get a true loyalist company who were dimented with my wife who plastered YES stickers over everything that had a union flag on it and left “aye right”leaflets everywhere, she had her own security guard assigned to her everytime we went in! 🙂

  81. EdinScot says:

    Wondering if anyone can clarify about the protest at Scottish Parliament this weekend. Is it Saturday or sunday and what time? There seems to be mixed messages as heard from others in work its sunday but read earlier today that its Saturday.

    Really good news to hear of the upsurge in membership of the 3 supporting independence parties especially the amazing figures from the snp. After that result we badly needed some kind of good news. Aiming to join the snp myself come end of the week.

  82. Kaspar says:

    Same old BBC

    Basically why bother joining a political party (wonder why the subject came up now) one quote saying “Party membership as a whole remains a minority pursuit”

  83. Bugger (the Panda) says:

    Parliamentary Monarchy like the French call their “democracy” a Presidential Monarchy,

  84. Robert Louis says:

    Robert Peffers,

    You make a good point. Lizzie is our monarch in Scotland only for as long as we wish her to be so, and no longer.

    You see we tried to be nice, and said that if we become independent we’d keep her as monarch, but not now. next time, the interfering monarch goes too – though she can stay on as Queen of England or whatever, if she wants. Maybe we should do it sooner.

    Mwah hahahaha, ha ha mwahahahaha. etc..etc..

    p.s. Is that treason? 🙂

  85. IcySpark says:

    If you tweet to any ‘British Labour Party in Scotland’ members please use the hashtag #thep45

  86. Big Jock says:

    Real call to the queen:” Your Majesty its Dave here.” ..”Good news one hopes.”……” Oh excellent your Caledonian slaves are back in their slums your majesty.”…..” Thank fuck I thought agent eyebrows had lost it ..tell him to fuck any chance of a knighthood.” …” Now 2015 make sure you don’t let that slurry stooge Milliband chappy into number 10 or its a concrete coffin at the bottom of the Thames…puuuurrrrrr!”

  87. yesindyref2 says:

    Good to see postings now so upbeat and discussing where and how to fo from here. SNP membership 53,695 and rising.

    I wonder, being the main Independence party, if the SNP shouldn’t have some sort of associate membership non-SNP people can join to show support for the main aim, Independence?

    Something like “Friends of SNP” but better, maybe “YES for SNP”?

  88. Robert Louis says:

    I agree with others, the SNP has no need to change name. Those who link it with nazism and other bad things would do the same, no matter what its name was.

    The name isn’t the problem, lying toadie Labour unionists are.

  89. Dougiekdy says:

    Well I never thought I’d see the day – my Wife just joined the SNP. For someone who wasn’t even the slightest bit interested in politics in any way, shape or form this is unbelievable. There are clearly others getting involved and showing their support – we MUST keep this going.

    Been reading some posts on here to go for DevoMax – I didn’t join the SNP or vote Yes because I was happy to accept 2nd best – we’ve had 2nd best for far too long and 45% is just the beginning – pro Independence parties will have a massive majority in Scotland in GE 2015, but we’ll have a tory/ukipnutter coalition in Westminster – that’s going to work then?

    By the Scottish Parliament elections in 2016 those who voted no will have woken up and realised they’ve been sold a pup. Do you think they’ll be voting “labour” then?

    I don’t often disagree with AS but Independence won’t be off the agenda for a generation – it’ll be here sooner than he thinks.

  90. Big Jock says:

    Unfortunately living in a democracy entitles eejits to vote to maintain the elitist monarchy and for the rich to bleed Scotland dry. If only everyone had the intelligence we had ………!

  91. Robert Peffers says:

    @bookie from hell says: 23 September, 2014 at 7:14 pm:

    “Establishment defo spooked 45% voted YES”

    Keep up the spooking. As Cameron has broken protocol by blabbing that the Queen has come out in favour of NO then Scots have a legitimate reason to say they want to be a republic. We cannot be a republic and part of a Kingdom too. So if we make enough noise about it then either Dave has to say he lied or the Queen has to say Cameron lied and Her Majesty is not going to break protocol.

    We cannot lose by this tactic but either Dave or Liz must come clean. If neither do we can go on stirring up republicanism and get independence that way. Cameron has talked himself and Westminster unionists into a corner with this. Are we going to let him and them off the hook?

  92. muttley79 says:


    I agree with you over the SNP’s name. I really don’t see what difference a name change would make at this time. I know there was talk at various times about a name change; think Salmond once said that there was a debate over changing the National to Independence. However, they got us to a referendum on indy. We need to change Scotland not change the name of the SNP imo. It is how you do it that is the question we need to find answers to.

  93. davidb says:

    I would be wary of those claiming that they voted naw on the promise of more powers.

    Anyone who believes a word uttered by G Brown is either gullible or stupid.

    I suspect a few are having regrets because they know they let down their nation. They are coming up with that excuse to hide their guilt. It is to be fair, not the daftest excuse I’ve heard, but it is only an excuse and nothing else. I do hope they are racked by that guilt until they shuffle off to wherever it is that those sae base as be a slave go for eternity.

  94. fred blogger says:

    labour now agree the NHS is under threat and even pledge(spit) to repeal the health and social care act.
    wow! have they only just realized what we have been telling them for over 3yrs now.
    talk about totally out of touch with human emotions and needs.
    they couldn’t peel an orange without an instruction manual.

  95. From reading the articles that were linked to above optimism is on the rise because all of the unionist parties are the ones now under scrutiny we are living in very interesting times.

  96. ScottieDog says:

    I always said to my fiends who were NO voters that labour would use many of the arguments put forward by the YES campaign against the Tories in the run up to the GE

  97. Big Jock says:

    I think 30% of people voted no because they are not interested in anything changing! The other 15% we can work on. The 30% won’t care if nothing happens. Its back to football and 90 minute Disneyland patriotism for the 30%. Incidently I will never support Scotland again until we are independent.I hate pretending and football has lost its appeal to me.

  98. Tam Jardine says:

    Our major difficulty now, as during the referendum campaign is the media. Who is going to nail Cameron, Miliband and Clegg or their 3 representatives up here to the wall? Who is going to take Gordon Brown, the golden bull of the BBC apart for lying to the electorate on pledges guaranteed to be voted for by 3 signatory MPS?

    If not a single journalist could or would touch Brown during the campaign, what chance this ‘retired on full salary’ politician will be challenged today?

    Who will scream about the Barnet Formula being altered despite an explicit promise to retain it?

    Who will rail against Scottish MPs’ status being downgraded despite an explicit promise that it would not.

    And who will rip the party leaders a new one when the ‘more powers’ baws gets kicked into the long grass?

    No-one. Not David Torrance for all his quotation marks. Not Paul Hutcheon with his character assassinations (and who incidentally showed remarkable spite and zero humour at poor David being humiliated by our FM today).

    Not Andrew Neil who, I am sure is relieved to have moved on from the Scottish question. And certainly not Nick Robinson, surely the most petulant and unprofessional journalist I have witnessed.

    None will change. We need control of broadcasting in Scotland and the SNP should push hard for this. And we need a new press – not simply pro indy press but independent also. Let’s see how the land lies over the next few weeks. I honestly see no point in contesting another referendum without either one of the 2 mentioned being in place.

    When the government is not held to account but instead is enforced by a compliant press and state broadcaster you are no longer living in a democracy.

  99. BBC Scotland are habitual liars.

    I avoid anything to do with BBC as they really are the lowest of the low.

  100. muttley79 says:


    Has Lamont resigned or just another bliddy rumour?

    Hope not. Stairheid has not completed her job of demolishing SLAB yet.

  101. heedtracker says:

    Crash Gordon’s in NY too makes me proud to be British. Thanks so much Naw thanks

  102. Robert Peffers says:

    @Gallowglass says: 23 September, 2014 at 7:28 pm:

    “Why are we still talking about SNP name change?”

    Nah! Gallowglass – it’s just some numptie cannot read and thinks the, “N”, in SNP stood for, “Nationalist”.

    Either that or they didn’t know that, “National Party”, meant it was the party of the Scottish Nation.

    It is laughable that these numpties attempt to make out that Scottish Nationalism is bad but they seem to think that United Kingdom Nationalism is good but they are so damned nationalistic the clain it as British Nationalism when there is no such thing as a British Nation. Witness doppy Dave claiming he is the British Prime Minister. Try telling that to a Republic of Ireland citizen or someone from the two Channal Island BNailiwicks or the Isle of Man.

  103. dougiekdy says:

    Sit back and watch them make an ar5e of it – we’re not going away:-)

  104. AuldA says:

    Yep, that’s right. It’s democracy, but our president is much like a king. It cannot even be charged for whatever motive during his term. That’s ridiculous, and more and more people are pushing towards a new constitution that would somehow shake up all this. The only solace is that we can push him out every five years (it was seven not so far ago).

    I read on one of our French newspaper that Cameron called the Queen and the PM said “she purred on the phone when she learned it was no”. Is that correct?

  105. fred blogger says: has anyone seen this yet,

  106. Calgacus says:

    Maybe we should invite the true royal line of the Stewarts back?

  107. Nana Smith says:

    The begging continues….

    Nana Smith,

    The stakes are incredibly high in this election, but nowhere more than for our NHS.

    As prime minister, I will invest an extra £2.5 billion in our NHS — enough to hire tens of thousands more frontline staff and create an NHS with time to care.

    We’ve costed this out — and we won’t borrow a penny to do it.

    Our new NHS time-to-care fund will be financed with money raised from tobacco companies, from closing tax avoidance loopholes, and from a tax on houses worth more than £2 million.

    If you want a government dedicated to our NHS — one committed to transforming it into a world-class 21st century health and care service — we need your help to win this election.

    Nana Smith — will you take the next step and join Labour? It costs from just £1.92 a month:

    Nana Smith, it is time to care about our NHS.

    We need a truly integrated service — for physical health, mental health and care for the elderly.

    We need doctors, nurses, care workers, midwives able to spend proper time with us, not to be rushed off their feet.

    Our new, £2.5 billion time-to-care fund will give our NHS:
    • 3,000 more midwives
    • 5,000 more homecare workers
    • 8,000 more GPs
    • 20,000 more nurses
    Our NHS is sliding backwards under this government — it is not safe in their hands. Just think what it would look like after another five years of their privatisation and fragmentation.

    We built the NHS. We saved the NHS. We will repeal the Tories’ Health and Social Care Bill and we will transform the NHS for the future.

    You can help us achieve this, Nana Smith. Join Labour now to help get our NHS back in safe hands:


  108. sometimesoon says:

    Couldn’t agree more. It’s Scotland we need to change and not that much of it. The SNP is a totally recognisable name that is still getting people signing up !

  109. yesindyref2 says:

    SNP over 54,000 now.

    For 2 years or more I’ve been able to post in reply to “you Nats”, that “I’m not a member of a political party, neer have been, and it’s unlikely that I ever will be. But I support Independence”.

    Well, even though I think the SNP is a bit precious, a bit puritan in interfering too much in personal lives (smoking ban!!!!), I’m neutral on Trident and basically apolitical, I’m thinking of joining …

  110. Tam Jardine says:


    I wince whenever I hear the term ‘nationalist’ used to describe SNP supporters or Yes campaigners. I would be against changing the name but it would be good to have this addressed.

    I have been a member for many years now but think of myself as a Scottish European, a bleedin internationalist.

    Worst of all I find the term nationalist used by the media as a default, by the labour party who now, to their eternal shame hate us much more than their friends in the conservative party, and even by SNP people themselves.

    As the Conservatives have found, changing their name has done nothing to change their handle so I doubt changing the name of the SNP would make too much difference.

    I would like to see the term challenged as it is used as a negative description when the opposite is true of this inclusive and progressive, multicultural party.

  111. John says:

    Does anyone know if there are any statistics on the breakdown of how people voted by religion? I am posting from Northern Ireland. I was 200 per cent in favour of ‘yes’. I am so disappointed for all my Scottish friends. I was planning to fly from Belfast to Edinburgh on Friday night to witness an historic occasion and to join in the celebrations. In the end, I was too gutted to go. One of the reasons I so admired the ‘yes’ movement was how they managed to attract support from both sides of the religious divide. This simply doesn’t happen in Northern Ireland. Although from the catholic/nationalist community in rural Northern Ireland, I have many friends from the protestant/unionist community, some even in the Orange Order. I can live with the fact that they were nearly all ‘no’ supporters.Its what I expect of them and I don’t have any real animosity towards them because of it. But, what I find impossible to forgive is those politicians and journalists from an Irish catholic/nationalist background like Jim Murphy, John McTernan, George Galloway, Kevin Toolis who turned out to be such ardent British nationalists, aligning themselves with the BNP/Orange Order/National Front types, who actually hate their guts. I consider these people to be total ("Tractor" - Ed)s, both to Scotland and to their Irish heritage. I absolutely loathe them. I also found it ironic that the lies of the ‘no’ campaign convinced so many that Scotland couldn’t manage to run a successful economy on its own when, on the very day of the referendum, Ireland, which doesn’t have a drop of oil, published its GDP figures showing annual growth at 7.7 per cent, the highest in the EU. Scotland, with its greater natural resources, could achieve that on its own too. Please don’t give up the struggle. Scotland is a great nation and its day will come, and much sooner than many think.

  112. gillie says:

    So Her Maj Liz is an effin’ unionist. Who knew?

  113. crisiscult says:

    @Big Jock

    I felt that way about the national team for a few hours after our defeat but I’m gonna get me a saltire 45 printed. I really hope we can turn the national team into an independent Scotland team i.e. the national team is for those who voted 45 and for those who want to join the 45 and make it 55, 65, whatever. Having our own football team, I believe has done no harm to Scotland maintaining a separate identity.

  114. john in Fife says:

    Why are the SNP getting involved in the Devo Con talks. Surely they should keep clear so as not to give the impression that they agree with the unionist parties on the “powers” coming our way.

  115. Andy smith says:

    Never watched it before, but anyone think that the evil sneaky bastard current!y on river city is dougie Alexander’s double…just saying like .

  116. Robert Peffers says:

    @Big Jock says: 23 September, 2014 at 7:32 pm:

    “Now we are back to campaign at Westminster on a ticket of independence but with a realistic chance of success. Not sure why people are concentrating on Holyrood 2016.

    Big Jock, the idea of fighting for more of a majority is to wipe out the Scottish department of the London Labour Part and reclaim the last tory and LibDem MSPs at Holyrood. Think of a combined Holyrood of SNP, Green and SSP with no Tory or Labour MSPs. Then to gain as many of those 59 Westminster as we can manage.

    Just where will those decamped Westminster BIG BEASTS go if we own the seats at Holyrood? Think what it will do to the Labour and Tory councils? Now I have no wish to have a one party state but with Greens & SSP it wouldn’t be and there would be a realignment anyway.

  117. liz g says:

    Can any of you think WHY the MSM would report on that story about the Queen?

    To damage HER?

    To damage HIM?

    Because its their duty to report the news with out fear or favor?

    To sow the seeds of division because the movement has not gone back in the box?

    Remember they not off the hook yet, and the divide has not totally fallen out of fashion,one of the least talked about parts of “THE VOW”is removing the power to dissolve Holyrood and return rule direct from London.

    I could be wrong but I think they also have form on this.

    One thing they could never do was to incite YES to get violent.
    But a lot of our cheated young people are angry.

    I am hoping that some leadership emerges soon but meanwhile can we at least here,keep reminding ourselves and everyone else the Queen is a non issue for a people who are only trying to choose the best way to run the Country.

  118. Bugger (the Panda) says:


    I believe that Sky have a recording and / or was overheard talking to the Mayor of NY.

  119. IcySpark says:

    Well said Christine Grahame. Calling out the Unionist for scaring the elderly.

  120. yesindyref2 says:

    Time is on the side of those who favour independence and I can’t see the desire change ebbing away.

    Dr Qvortrup in Scotsman.

    And so say all of us. But not too much time … 1-2 years.

  121. Cuilean says:

    OAPs of Scotland!
    When will we see yer like again?
    Were fraught and cried for
    Yer wee bit bills and yen.
    And stood against them.
    Against Who?!
    Our Foodbank Army!
    And sent them homewards,
    To starve again.

  122. A.N.Surgent says:

    Any Scottish national team that continues to use FOS as its anthem
    is open to ridicule and frankly pathetic. I would rather there was
    just 3 mins of silence.

  123. Robin Ross says:

    Calgacus says:
    Maybe we should invite the true royal line of the Stewarts back?

    Maybe not. They were Unionists!

  124. yesindyref2 says:

    I’m going to make a wee prediction here.

    I don’t think even with the opinion polls, that the media expected a 45% YES vote. I also think they realise that a good 25% of that 55% NO vote was fooled by the more powers vow that fell apart in 5 hours flat. Giving a natural majority for YES of 59% to 41% NO.

    It might be worth watching the media in Scotland for a change in heart, and indeed, encouraging it.

  125. yesindyref2 says:

    SNP could simply change their name from the Scottish National Party to the Scottish Nation Party.

  126. Tamson says:

    Regarding Sheridan’s call to get behind the SNP at the upcoming General Election, it’ll be interesting to see how other parties react.

    This is the kind of scenario the British Secret Services are in place to combat: to limit the momentum of any threat to the British state. It may be worth watching closely the messages coming from figures in the pro-indy parties, especially the Greens and SSP. Anyone resisting the idea, even though it makes perfect sense, will be quite interesting, I reckon.

    I’m certainly not saying major figures in these parties are MI5 plants, but there will undoubtedly be some in all these parties. Every “awkward” political movement in the UK will have them: that’s simply a fact.

  127. AuldA says:

    Yes, you’re right, saw that elsewhere.
    Well, that was all but a scoop anyway.
    I wonder how many Yes supporters would also opt for a Republic like the Irish did.
    And maybe transfer the royal properties to the future Scottish state?

  128. Midgehunter says:

    Who said:

    “First they ignore you, then they laugh at you, then they come to fight you, and then you win.”

    M.K. Gandhi of course. And where is it written down?

    It’s on the Wings homepage.

    Gandhi was in the INC – Indian NATIONAL Congress. They were the party that was at the forefront of the Indian struggle for independence.

    I don’t think the SNP needs to change its name, it’s a perfectly good one, we just need to fight under its banner and win.

  129. Paula Rose says:

    I’m quite happy to hold the crown jewels if there’s a vacancy on the throne.

  130. fred blogger says:

    Max Keiser on how Scots lost tons of cash by voting ‘NO’ to independence and made a horrible decision in voting no.

  131. Mosstrooper says:

    Just came in after a very pleasant evening with my daughter and grand daughter. Both are on fire and have joined the SNP and want to get involved in the new Independence front which is opening up, Indy45 or whatever. Come on here only to find that an MSP has left the SNP because he doesn’t agree with it’s stand on NATO. WHIT?

    Well what an exercise in ego. The SNP membership is soaring, the pulse of the independence movement is beating strong and true and this crass self publicist wants to pee in the bath.

    Look at ME, ME, everybody notice ME. Well John, enjoy your 5 minutes of fame and much good may it dae ye.

  132. manandboy says:

    There are two people who have, arguably, done more damage to Scotland in recent times, than anyone else.

    Do I mean Brown and Darling ? – No.

    Do I mean Cameron and Osborne ? – No.

    Do I mean Danny & Dougie Alexander ? – No

    Is it perhaps Johann Lamont & Ruth Davidson ? – No

    Well, I hear you say, WT* is it then ?

    It’s KEN MCQUARRIE & JOHN BOOTHMAN at BBC Scotland, Pacific Quay.

    Their Identities and activities are hidden behind the curtain of brand BBC.

    It is time to remove the cloak of invisibility protecting these two men

    who have singlehandedly x 2 and by foul means,

    destroyed the hopes of so many

    while trampling on Scotland’s right to self determination.

  133. gillie says:

    Down with the monarchy. A dysfunctional family living on benefits.

  134. Big Jock says:

    Joe that Butterfly story is breathtaking. Surely something has to be investigated. These guys have really done their homework! What could Cameron have done to secure the Shetlands after a yes vote though?

  135. gillie says:

    The Scottish Republican Party sounds more suitable.

  136. Rock says:



    Glenrothes voted YES. As did Kirkcaldy so I am told.”

    I was referring to the rigged by-election some time back, in response to Roger’s comment.

  137. Pentland Firth says:

    Re John from the North of Ireland.
    Thanks pal for your words of encouragement. We haven’t lost, it’s just a temporary setback. We will prevail. Congratulations on the 7.7% rate of growth in the Republic.

  138. Rock says:

    Harry McAye,

    “Rock, I don’t recall Morrisons doing much wrong”

    Morrisons had suggested higher prices long before Asda.

  139. Robert Peffers says:

    @STARLAW says: 23 September, 2014 at 7:55 pm:

    Well actually we are not either a democracy nor are we a Monocracy.

    Check out your history.

    England who had annexed, Walse and Ireland had the, “Glorious Revolution”, in 1688 and deposed the monarchy of England and importeed William and Mary of Orange but removed from them the Royal veto over Parliament. So the three country of England is Constitutional monarchy. However as Scotland & England were both independent until 1707 the English Parliament could not depose a Scottish Monarch. Thgis was the reason for the Jacobite uprisings, (1688 -1745). In 1320 the Scots declaration of independence made the people of Scotland sovereign and made their monarchy the defenders of the people’s sovereignty and that is the basis of the independent Scottish legal system. After 1707 the Treaty of union explicitly keeps the Scottish Legal system independent and the 1798 Claim of Right ratifies that fact. Scotland is not part of a Constitutional monarchy. In fact Scots law says a monarch who does NOT support Scotland can be sacked by the people and Cameron has just claimed Her Majesty has taken sides against Scotland. He claims she purred at the news the independence referendum had been won by Westminster. Scotland could legally sach her and become a republic and a republic cannot be part of a United Kingdom.

  140. IcySpark says:

    Objects viewable from space: Great Wall of China, Kennecott Copper Mine, Greenhouses of Almería and the post-indyref membership of the SNP. 🙂

  141. Arabs for Independence says:

    The Scottish rugby team should not be allowed to play the national anthem of Scotland. So many Scottish rugby heroes said vote No and I am not aware of many or any saying Yes

  142. fred blogger says:

    hear hear well said christine, she told the bastards.

  143. Rock says:

    Harry McAye,

    “I have also just discovered the joys of Lidl. Can’t get everything I want, they don’t seem to do cooking oil”

    Yes, they do – I buy mine there!

  144. Early Ball says:

    I think the SNP should get involved in the talks. They should get quotes from the campaign of every party who said they were offering “devomax” which must be them all. “Devomax” is everything except foreign affairs and defence. Devomax is what the SNP ask for and anything less is the Unionist parties reneging.

  145. Lollysmum says:

    Hi All
    Have you seen tweet from Laura Kuensberg (reporter)on SNP website.Click on Join conversation. She says a private poll for the tories caused the panic & showed YES at 53%.

    Also article on Newsnet Scotland-leader of No campaign admits & justifies fear campaign

    And SNP now 29,000-bloody fantastic

  146. Graeme Doig says:


    Yes link has been posted already but thanks for that.

    Interesting read and if someone is following this up in a systematic way and with legal back up i’m delighted.

    The british establishment is a dangerous machine and they had too much to lose. At the moment i don’t think we can pin too much on this but, i for one , don’t doubt their ability to have cheated us out of independence.

    Anyone involved in this would need to be very careful i would suggest.

  147. Marian says:

    Cameron, Miliband and Co will continue to crap all over Scotland until Scottish voters are successful in ridding Scotland of all Westminster Unionist MP’s in May 2015

    It seems irrelevant posturing for John Wilson MSP to resign over NATO when there is now no realistic prospect of Scotland being in a position to join NATO for some years to come. Surely he could have continued to park his concerns aside until such time as NATO membership becomes a possibility again?

  148. Albaspark says:

    Well….it’s a first for me….now a member of the SNP….it has a certain rhyming charm don’t you think? ????

  149. highseastim says:

    Rock, having phoned home to the wife tonight, she did her first shop in Aldi and Lidl today, she said it was alright and a helluva lot cheaper.

  150. highseastim says:

    Alba spark, that’s me just joined up tonight also, I would say I’m about the twentieth to join off this rig since Friday!!

  151. Piggy says:

    liz g says:
    23 September, 2014 at 8:57 pm
    “Can any of you think WHY the MSM would report on that story about the Queen?

    To sow the seeds of division because the movement has not gone back in the box?

    Remember they not off the hook yet, and the divide has not totally fallen out of fashion,one of the least talked about parts of “THE VOW”is removing the power to dissolve Holyrood and return rule direct from London.

    I could be wrong but I think they also have form on this.

    One thing they could never do was to incite YES to get violent.
    But a lot of our cheated young people are angry”.

    I think liz g makes a good point, and one which I think might be spot on. I think the queen’s remark if it was made at all, was leaked deliberately to inform and provoke.

    It’s purpose is to unite the no voters and form opinion outside of the growing YES battalions. They are trying to provoke a reaction from the YES voters, and for them to become outspoken against the queen.

    Westminster is reacting to what is underway in Scotland and trying to gain support through the monarch from no camp. How else can they get amongst us?

    They cannot speak to us directly, so they use stealth tactics. Stand by for infiltration next.

    Some good points were made on here recently about getting the head down and getting on with basic campaigning without being distracted. I think that’s a great way to make real progress.

    Westminster is predictable.

  152. yesindyref2 says:

    The SNP shouldn’t get involved in Devo-Max talks, but the Scottish Government should of course. The line needs to be drawn clearly between the two.

    Morrisons said prices could go up – or prices could go down. The media just reported the first part.

    Flower of Scotland should go as the anthem. It’s hypocritical now for NO voters who were given the chance, and those of us who voted YES – I can’t even think of it. It’s onwards or upwards, and a more uplifting anthem is needed for YES as well as for Scotland.

  153. Rock says:

    Absolutely no need for the SNP to change its name.

    Also I do not like the idea of the SNP getting involved in any negotiations over the ‘Devo’ scam.

    Let the unionists provide their ‘Devo’. The SNP (and W o S) can then expose it as the fraud that it no doubt will be.

  154. Calgacus says:

    Aye no need to worry about frightening the horses or keeping the ludge onside. Scottish Republican Party sounds good to me.

    Paula Rose as first lady perhaps?

  155. Robert Peffers says:

    @john king says: 23 September, 2014 at 7:58 pm:

    “Dont worry Robert,
    theres a lift.”

    Just as well as I’m a bit disabled. I hope no one thinks I’m just, “Raven”.

  156. allan says:

    Hey Rock. please dont dismiss all middle class as no voters. I am lucky to be well off and have used my money to help fund the yes campaign as well as helping fund homeless shelters etc.

    there is a place for business in any society, we just to make sure there is a real living wage below which we will not allow.

  157. Papadox says:

    EBC SCOTLANDSHIRE has to be tackled as a priority. It’s like the elephant in the room. Westminster propaganda broadcast into every home in the land unchallenged and with lies and deceit as it’s core values



  158. Luigi says:

    yesindyref2 says:
    23 September, 2014 at 9:06 pm

    I’m going to make a wee prediction here.

    I don’t think even with the opinion polls, that the media expected a 45% YES vote. I also think they realise that a good 25% of that 55% NO vote was fooled by the more powers vow that fell apart in 5 hours flat. Giving a natural majority for YES of 59% to 41% NO.

    It might be worth watching the media in Scotland for a change in heart, and indeed, encouraging it

    I believe that YES did briefly go over 50%, but it was a very soft YES and soon melted away when the three stooges made their vow. I think now, a few months before the GE, is an ideal time to consolidate the 45% YES that we achieved on the 18th. It is no good achieving this high point, if YES sinks back to 30% core again. We have to harden these new supporters of independence and grow the core support.

    My gut feeling is that, thanks to the behaviour of BT MSM, hard core support for independence is now about 40%. This is likely to rise to 45% as it becomes clear that the vow is not worth the paper it was written on. We need to increase hard YES to 50% before the next serious challenge to the establishment is made, in order to have success next time.

  159. Calgacus says:

    Liz the last here’s yir p45+

  160. Calgacus says:

    @Robin Ross, aye you’re right enough, they weren’t the brightest sparks either!

  161. Calgacus says:

    Either they are very stupid or they are trying to rub our noses in it either way Westminster can get tae Falkirk

  162. yesindyref2 says:

    The 18-24 age group were part of the “Lost Generation” talked about all over the UK. Some fell by the wayside, but others took jobs selling Love Films on commission, collecting for charity on commission, taking low-paid jobs, zero hour contracts, and some have moved on into reasonable jobs and careers.

    They are still at risk, and are completely justified in feeling afraid of change, otherwise they can rejoin the lost generation. The job over the next few months is not to call them ("Tractor" - Ed)s or selfish, but to reach out and understand them, to talk to them, to reassure them. Probably best done by other 18-24 year-olds.

    Their parents and grandparents will also have seen their efforts, their doubts, their fears, and that could be a reason they voted NO. The best people to talk to them are their own kids, their own grandkids. Or others the same age.

    By the way, the preview on this is great, and even the posting box has better text for eyes like mine, getting a bit older and often posting in semi-dark. The Herald has probably Arial Narrow and is a pain to read or correct, I used to have to do most of it after posting, and then some times the posting got stuck into “moderation” 🙁

  163. A.N.Surgent says:

    Talking about being a republic is a mute point, as nothing can be done until independence is achieved. as some have said its just a tactic to divide the YES vote.

  164. yesindyref2 says:

    John Wilson MSP stuck with the SNP until after the Referendum. Two SNP MSPs resigned after the NATO vote which is their right. They both vote with the SNP, as I expect John Wilson will too.

  165. Kenny says:

    If the SNP were to hold a meeting for all its members, they would need to hire…. Hampden Park!

  166. Robert Peffers says:

    @Kaspar says:23 September, 2014 at 8:16 pm:

    “Same old BBC

    Basically why bother joining a political party (wonder why the subject came up now) one quote saying “Party membership as a whole remains a minority pursuit”

    Not only same old BBC they got it wrong as usual too.
    They claimed two independence parties have reported large increases in membership and mention SNP & Greens but the SSP also increased their membership and if the Labour Party claims increased members who knows if those new members are London Labour or Labour for Indy? Can we actually say Labour are a Unionist party if they have a Labour for Indy Wing?

  167. Grouse Beater says:

    This must be the only nation in the world where its rugby team dedicated itself to another nation.

    It’s a cruel farce.

    These people are to be pitied.

    The all-white South African team played for South Africa after apartheid had been topled and their whole world had been altered against their beliefs. They didn’t disband.

  168. We need proper co-ordination between the YES political parties. To make sure the best party candidate in the right place gets the support of us all to beat the unionists candidates.

    THE SNP are the Scottish National Party, stop going on about it please.

  169. gillie says:

    SRU are middle-class, privately educated, Tory voting scum bags. This is a game on the downward slope in Scotland, no wonder the Scotland team are crap. I doubt the professional sides will survive.

  170. caz-m says:

    My answer to some smart arse Unionist who thinks he is winding me up about their victory
    is to tell him that the Referendum we just had was a rehearsal, a warm-up for the real thing.

    That referendum was just to get people in the mood.

    It doesn’t half shut them up, because they cant believe that they have got to go through all that again.

    It puts that wee spring back in your step.

  171. Big Jock says:

    Grouse Rugby is a middle class sport.The middle classes only care about cars and mortgages not the poor. Before anyone pipes up. I can say this because I am middle class. I am one of the exceptions to the rule! We ate being held back by old people and selfish right wing tossers!

  172. Games a-bogie, chaps! Looks like we’ll be packing our troubles into the old kitbag. Back of the bus Scotland. England prevails!

  173. Big Jock says:

    Spoke to a Finnish woman in my work who voted yes. She thinks the Scots are just brainwashed idiots. I couldn’t disagree. She was surprised being independent was even a question.

  174. Robert Peffers says:

    @Robert Louis says: 23 September, 2014 at 8:17 pm:

    “You make a good point. Lizzie is our monarch in Scotland only for as long as we wish her to be so, and no longer.” Indeed we, “The Sovereign People of Scotland”, could petition our Scottish Government to sack her now.

    “Mwah hahahaha, ha ha mwahahahaha. etc..etc..

    p.s. Is that treason?”

    Of course not. It is the people of Scotland who are legally sovereign and that means the royal is legally our subject. In fact her purring at us losing the referendum, and the witness to that is of the highest trustworthyness, could make her legally guilty of treason against the sovereign people of Scotland.

    Here it is black upon white : –

    “Yet if he should give up what he has begun, and agree to make us or our kingdom subject to the King of England or the English, we should exert ourselves at once to drive him out as our enemy and a subverter of his own rights and ours, and make some other man who was well able to defend us our King; for, as long as but a hundred of us remain alive, never will we on any conditions be brought under English rule. It is in truth not for glory, nor riches, nor honours that we are fighting, but for freedom — for that alone, which no honest man gives up but with life itself”.

    Oo! Err! Have we stumbled upon a way to free Scotland? A Republic cannot be part of the United Kingdom.

  175. Papadox says:


    Newsnet Scotland has a petition going at the moment. I am having great trouble accessing the site and have had all day. Something very wrong here AGAIN. GCHQ?

  176. Golfnut says:

    Yes they should. Brown,Bbc,Stv,newsprint and other politicians all used the term devomax and homerule. WM politicians now exavtly what those terms mean, but that is not what they offering or talking about now. This is a very big stick to beat them with. It highlights thier clear intent to deceive.

  177. Valerie says:

    Really sickening piece on Newsnet about Blair McDougall bragging about using fear tactics, as their surveys told them this would be their best bet. Sent it with a message to Tom Bradby, who I follow just so I can comment on his posts. Probably a waste of time, but worth a try.

  178. thomaspotter2014 says:

    Please everyone have a look at’s mouthwateringly liberating and needs all YES people to check out the site as a matter of urgency.The content is EXPLOSIVE.



  179. sinky says:

    8000 new members joined snp today and will soon reach 30,000 since Thursday.
    And to think that the unionists thought that a No vote kill the SNP stone dead.

  180. caledonia says:

    Quick question (posted already but did not show)

    Uk government will not want SNP taking most of seats in Scotland

    So can anyone on here tell me what will be done different at election to stop vote rigging and scare mongeing or will it be same old

  181. heraldnomore says:

    Speaking to a couple of friends today, (>65) who for a decade have been splitting their retiral time between Scotland and France. Took calls from friends in France over the weekend who were utterly bemused at the Scots refusal to take the opportunity to manage their own affairs. Gallic shrug didn’t come into it. Total disbelief.

    Any way retiral plans have moved on. Instead of selling family and keeping a small flat in Edinburgh they are now intent on selling family home and living solely in France, with all funds leaving the country with them. They are utterly disgusted with the outcome.

    This couple have managed to come to their own informed views without the aid of the internet; and also without the aid of the Scottish press and the state broadcaster. That will be something north of £1m to leave these shores and be taxed elsewhere.

  182. Grouse Beater says:

    I’ve read a good few posts here and quite frankly there are stupid ideas of how to save our souls, and next to nothing of how to reverse the theft of our nation.

    There is not enough bloody anger and rage.

    We were threatened!

    We were threatened by our own politicians for Christ sake, by crooked banks, by corrupt financiers, by profit driven, low wage stores, by corporations, and an anti-democratic press and media, and that’s putting it mildly.

    Those people and institutions demand justified fury flung in their face, prolonged wrath for canabalising a nation’s wealth and daring to remove hope and aspiration.

    If we want out country back again we have proved trailing dutifully to a voting booth is not the answer. The British Establishment showed how easily it can scythe the process.

    Out of this farce there must arise a mass sustained, cohesive, well-organised, well-directed campaign of concerted civil disobedience and protest directed accurately at the institutions, at the politicians who betrayed their countrymen and women, and at the banks that blackmailed.

    It is of no consequence who writes what punchy essay in a spirit of understanding- we lost our country a second time by allowing others to bully enough into submission.

    If you have no rage in your belly, if you have no anger, don’t post fey drivel. Go watch television and get on with your life as you wish to live it.

    If you are furious about being cheated, sucked into a perverted process, organise a monolithic, dramatic reponse.

    Remember, the opposition did not give a shit about you, or Scotland or how its people would be crushed.

    Turn you anger on the organised opposition who felled a prosperous nation and its people.

    Do it, and do it as ruthlessly as they did it to you.

  183. yesindyref2 says:

    The target of the next referendum will be to achieve an 80& YES vote. For that we need to keep the 45% we already have, and to take 2/3rds of the NO vote with us, including the 18-24, the over 55, and the conservatives small c, who will not be afraid of having a purely socialist Scotland, but have a Scotland with totally open politics.

    We don’t want to alienate anyone, and there is some evidence that the mostly left-wing approach of the campaign did indeed alienate natural Independence supporters amongst the NOes.

  184. Daddyo says:

    yesindyref2 says
    Flower of Scotland should go as the anthem

    1.6 million of us are still the “flowers of Scotland”

    We get to sing this. The 55 have given up that right

  185. Robert Peffers says:

    @ScottieDog says: 23 September, 2014 at 8:31 pm:

    “I always said to my fiends who were NO voters that labour would use many of the arguments put forward by the YES campaign against the Tories in the run up to the GE”

    Oh! ScottieDog your wee Freudian slip there has given me the best laugh I’ve had since the post referendum morning –

    “my fiends who were NO voters”, really hilarious and I read it three times not quite realising what it said but thinking something wrong, then it clicked.

  186. Anne says:

    After a lifetime of proudly not belonging to any political party I joined SNP today. I want to show the unionists that we are not going anywhere.

    I am beginning to come round to the idea of (proper) devo max as this would be the acceptable stepping stone for those frightened of full independence. Baby steps to independence may be the only way. We have to get buy in from all walks of life as I think there was far too much reliance on the poorer areas voting.

  187. ChrisB says:

    Piggy at 9:45 pm
    liz g at 8:57 pm
    “Can any of you think WHY the MSM would report on that story about the Queen?

    The fact that the remarks were picked up may have been accidental, but I think they’re being reported to reassure the people who voted “No” that they made the right decision. The concept of a “reassurance letter” is apparently sometimes used in the world of marketing and I think Her Maj’s alleged feline vocalisations have been reported to create a similar effect. Found this online:

    “It’s common for people to experience buyer’s remorse, especially when dealing with an expensive investment in a product. When you write up a letter that thanks them and really reaches out to them, it can easily reduce these fears and concerns that they had and really allows them to feel better overall.”

  188. macnakamura says:

    Got email from David’s brother urging me to support Labour and NHS.

    Obviously, Ed needs to have word with Gordon, Douglas, Johan and Alistair who have assured us that NHS is safer faster and better.

  189. liz says:

    @Big Jock – that’s because the Finnish lady hasn’t been subjected to 300 +years of propaganda.

    When I was younger and heard about abusive partnerships, I used to say – why don’t they just leave – as I couldn’t understand why it would be hard.

    I know a lot of folk said don’t compare this to an abusive relationship but that’s exactly what it is.

    At the risk of repetition cos I know the people concerned don’t pay any attention – gonnae stop posting MSM links

  190. William says:

    All this talk of what the SNP will do at the general election ie wiping labour out etc will not work unless something changes otherwise the vote will just be rigged the same and the scaremongring
    will not change either

    Or do we have somthing we can do different as there is no way they will allow a massive snp win

  191. Pentland Firth says:

    Rugby isn’t a middle class sport. Nobody has been refused entry to a ground because they weren’t the “right class”. If any kid wants to try rugby, he or she will be welcomed by every club in the country. Please don’t try to put put working class kids off any sport, by claiming they won’t be welcome. Sport is sport.

    If you’re referring to Gavin Hastings, he was understood by his contemporaries to be the prototype for “Tim Nice but Dim”. His only rivals in the intellectually challenged stakes were his Watsonian team mates. We working class guys enjoyed thrashing the living daylights out of them, which we did twice a season, before offering them a condescending hand shake at the end of the game. They really hated that.

    I seem to remember there were quite a few famous former footballers who “came out” as No voters in the run up to the referendum. Does that make football a middle class Unionist sport? No, of course it doesn’t.

  192. Luigi says:

    Arch unionist Scot Hastings in a recent debate made a point that he was so proud playing for the British Lions blah blah blah.

    Excuse me, Scot, I thought it was the British and Irish Lions!


  193. Daddyo says:

    Grouse Beater says
    There is not enough bloody anger and rage

    Grief is turning to anger, at least in my house and my family.

    I really don’t mean to sound callous but everyday an old no voter shuffles off their mortal coil and a 15 year old becomes 16.

    We are into the long game remember Bruce and the spider

  194. fred blogger says:

    Grouse Beater
    we’re still here.
    i feel anger, a peaceful anger.
    a steely resolve.
    the bewilderment has all but gone.
    my thoughts are becoming clearer and ordered.
    no one has given up, or will give up, i feel that our numbers are growing way beyond the45.

  195. yesindyref2 says:

    For some reason I (as dadsarmy) managed to get post-moderated on NNS this weekend, so can make the occasional posting without having to wait until it gets approved. I’ll use it wisely as they don’t like clutter.

    Yes you’re right of course, we do indeed, and we can sing it proudly. I guess it doesn’t stop us looking a bit critically at those who voted NO as they’re singing it … might make them think about the words they turned their back on – this time.

  196. Grouse Beater says:

    Rugby isn’t a middle class sport

    The opposition will love you dashing off after a squirrel.


  197. Ian Brotherhood says:

    Great SSP meeting in Irvine earlier this evening – 40 attended, mostly newcomers, and that was with scant publicity.

    Seems we’ve taken on 2,100 new members since Friday morning, and that’s just the applications which have been processed.

  198. cynical lowlander says:

    Cracking comment by Alex Salmond on David Torrance.

  199. James123 says:

    I don’t understand the attitude of NNS to commenting, you’ll read a really great article there then below there are very few comments, just gives the impression that not many have read it. I really can’t think of any other blog or website that has such a strict policy, it’s very bizarre and does them no favours whatsoever.

  200. Golfnut says:

    @ ChrisB

    I agree, but I have a feeling this is going to back fire big time. HM can’t refute the comment without severely embarrassing Cameron, and Cameron can’ refute it, because its recorded and reported.
    The Queen reportedly refused to become involved, but it did not stop the msm from reporting or implying that she was against independace.

    These are bad mistakes when you consider republicism is becoming much more popular.

  201. Ian Brotherhood says:

    @Grouse Beater (10.34) –

    Powerful polemic – I’d love to see you versus Jim Murphy.

  202. Daddyo says:

    Rock says:
    23 September, 2014 at 9:30 pmBalaaargh,


    “Glenrothes voted YES. As did Kirkcaldy so I am told”

    Do we know this to be true?

    I live in Glenrothes and will do my upmost to get rid of that useless bawbag Roy

  203. Graeme Doig says:

    Come on the Grouse Beater.

    Our country was stolen from us by foul means and i feel like a stranger in this land every time i go out.

    My feeling now, given the level of lying by bt politicians and activists and lack of msm holding anyone to account, is that no matter what we do politically, we’ll continue to get screwed by the british establishment

    What organised monolithic and dramatic response do you have in mind ?

  204. David says:

    Grousebeater at 10:34pm

    This is a chess board my friend and the best statesmen know this. Alex Salmond played a grand game of it and should have won but for foul play.

    Anger does nothing except make you thrash out uselessly.

    Make your anger grim determination. Focus it into calm resolve and then tactically make your moves.

    We dont win this by opposing anything, we win this by transcending the institutions that have become out of date and defunct – Westminster and the BBC for example. We win this by the cold collection of facts and sources on the economy, the lies that have been told, facts on our opponents hypocrisy etc.

    I would suggest that anyone who wishes to ‘get angry and show it’ keep out of my way because i wont be tolerating it. The media will only paint it as being an angry thug.

    Now is the time for calm purpose and the methodical construction of an honest and unbeatable argument for our countries independence and making sure everyone is aware of it.

    Knowledge dispels fear.

  205. I see Alan Grogen LFI founder has finally resigned from the British Labour Party as they will not change from within.

  206. liz says:

    Alan Grogan has resigned from the Labour party – if someone as loyal as he has done that they are finished.

    @Grouse Beater – we are all angry in our own way but what do you think this will achieve.

  207. dakk says:

    @Big Jock 10.18
    One of my clients is a Finnish guy.Voted No so some Finns are brainwashed idiots too obviously.He said it was because of sports funding then went on to denigrade our economy.I said Finland should be run by Russia again,bit childish I know.

  208. yesindyref2 says:

    Oh, as I posted on NNS, now the Referendum is over and there is no Independence legislation the Scottish Government can enact, they will be unable to usw any more than very limited Civil Service resources, or spending, “to prepare for future legislation”. They will be able to spend resources preparing for Devo-Max, even now.

    It means Civic and Academic Scotland – and us – are going to have to do all that, including EU membership, defence, International Relations, and all the rest of it.

  209. James123 says:

    Apparently 1,100 joined the SNP between 10.10 and 10.50 tonight, astonishing.

  210. Daddyo says:

    yesindyref2 says

    Thats why, on Friday night, I put the YES stickers back on my car and my YES badges back on. Still grieving for what was lost but still so proud of my country – as you say – next time

  211. Graeme Doig says:


    I hear what you’re saying but as a nation (if you can even call us that) we cannot possibly sing FOS at any event from now on surely.

    We’re already a laughing stock. That would make us look even more stupid than we’ve already proved.

  212. Grouse Beater says:

    Daddyo: There is not enough bloody anger and rage

    I had a No voter tell me – without checking my integrity – how much he was relieved to have won the plebiscite.

    I turned on him-

    ‘Proud to have sold out your countrymen? I’d have thought you too ashamed to tell anybody how you voted.’

    He didn’t retaliate – others will, I’m sure, but either we have the courage of our convictions or we are craven liars.

    Do you think millions in South American countries who have had to fight and many die for their democracy look upon their sacrificies as a pleasant day off to vote?

  213. Devereux says:

    @David says. The spider, the spider, the **@@! spider folks….. now more than ever is time for discipline.

  214. mr thms says:

    “4,000 .scot domain names registered

    Director of Dot Scot Registry Gavin McCutcheon said: “It is entirely right that Scotland should have its own distinctive and recognisable internet domain, in particular one that will resonate internationally, helping to promote Scottish business and culture throughout the world.

    “I am confident that the .scot domain name will prove to be a real asset to the people of Scotland and to the worldwide family of Scots.”

    Finance Secretary John Swinney said: “With .scot domains now generally available, people at home and abroad have a new opportunity to express their Scottish identity or affinity online.

    “I also look forward to being adopted in the coming months as the primary web address for the Scottish Government.””

  215. GrantMacD says:

    Grouse Beater
    I understand and agree entirely. Last time I was this upset and angry, I had just watched my father die in front of me. I was 20 years old and clueless as to what a heart attack looked like or what to do.

    I know it’s a stupid analogy but I’ve horribly similar frustration at now seeing my country stolen while, once again, I feel unable to fix what just happened. It’s ridiculous but true as the only time I felt this way was 36 years ago.

  216. EphemeralDeception says:

    Just a positive thought to end the evening…

    2 years ago I was a bit sceptical of the drive of Generation Y. What this referendum has shown is that the young in Scotland are very organised, well aware of a lot of issues and when they are not they bloody go and find out through multiple channels.

    Even some young no voters at least seem to have tried to reason it out and not just follow the media.

    It would be good to get the demographics of the new SNP and Green membership.

  217. Robert Peffers says:

    @Tam Jardine says: 23 September, 2014 at 8:49 pm:

    “I wince whenever I hear the term ‘nationalist’ used to describe SNP supporters or Yes campaigners. I would be against changing the name but it would be good to have this addressed.

    Why? That, “N”, in SNP stands for, “N-A-T-I-O-N-A-L”, Tam – Not, “N-A-T-I-O-N-A-L-I-S-T. Just tell whoever claims otherwise to go take remedial lessons in English. It literally means, “The Party of the Scottish Nation”, and since being in office they most certainly have proven they are just that.

    If any lot are nationalists it is the unionists of the United Kingdom. They constantly claim to be British and anyone not of their Union to be NOT British. How many times have you heard Cameron claim to be, “The British Prime Minister”? He isn’t as the Republic of Ireland is part of the British Isles. As are the Non-UK Bailiwick of Jersey, Non-UK Bailiwick of Guernsey and the Non-UK Isle of Man. What of them claiming the United Kingdom is their country? Last time I looked the letters k-i-n-g-d-o-m spelled kingdom, a royal realm they do not spell c-o-u-n-t-r-y which is an individual area of land usually but not always with a unitary government. What of the claims of the British Army? British Navy and British Air Force? – none of which exist being all United Kingdom armed forces or, to ber perfectly correct they belong to Her Majesty the Queen. Furthermore it is Her Majesty’s Government yet Cameron claims it is his government. They don’t come more nationalistic than that. What is more that type of nationalism is far more akin to the type on national socialism that caused two World wars and nothing like the nationalism that only wishes to be left alone to govern its own country.

  218. liz says:

    @cynicalHighlander – ditto.

    Alan Bissett and Irvine Welsh told the BBC to take a hike when they wanted an interview, the Yes bar in Glasgow has also told them the same thing.

    So these folk are also expressing their anger

  219. Ian Brotherhood says:

    re Grouse Beater’s comments, which I wholeheartedly support:

    Is there no place for justifiable anger? Have you any idea how unhealthy it is to bottle all that stuff up indefinitely?

    Remember the Peter Finch ‘I’m mad as hell and I’m not going to take it any more!’ speech? What’s wrong with that?

    I’m with Grouse Beater on this one – we should be mad, and some of us should be allowed to show it. Some folk are good at diplomacy, some are good at deep-breathing and keeping composed in the face of injustice, but others are good at letting-rip right into the faces of liars and thieves, giving them the full hairdryer treatment they never ever experience in real-life.

    I say we thank them for doing it so that the more sensitive among us don’t have to – so long as it remains verbal, fair do’s. (Was the man who heckled Alistair Darling – calling him a ‘ratbag’ – wrong? If I’d been in the same place and had the guts to raise my voice, I would’ve called him a lot worse.)

    This is no game. They won because they know how to lie, cheat and steal – from the very weakest of us! – with a straight face, and have no qualms about it. We were, and are, too ‘nice’.

    ‘Nice’ won’t free us from Westminster rule.

  220. fred blogger says:

    quakers get their name from shaking in anger and rage.

  221. Ian Brotherhood says:

    @fred blogger –

    They were angry because they couldn’t get their oats.

    (I’ll get my oat…)

  222. yesindyref2 says:

    So, in the early hours of Friday in Dundee, my son and I were ashamed to be Scottish, and were saying we would take Irish nationality which we could get easily.

    But as a father my first responsibility was to him, and I managed to help get him out of his dark despair. In turn his bounceback helped mine, and I cam online and read this forum, seeing many had already started the fightback.

    I’ve stuck around and am in a much better mood, looking ahead now, perhaps with more determinatation than ever. Scotland will be Independent, and before I pop my clogs! Fellow posters have helped me, and I hope I’ve helped a little.

    But my sadly neglected business calls, and my personal finances are [deleted], so it’s back to work right now, but I’ll call in every now and again. Good luck to ye all

    To the Rev! What can I say, eccentric and off the wall and I mean that as a compliment. This was round 1 and the Union is ahead on points, but not by much. Round 2 is the Devo-max stramash and might result in a knockout OF the Union in 1-2 years if Devo-Max isn’t delivered. But round 3 if Devo-Max is delivered will end in 5 years or so, and that will be Independence by a Devolution referendum percentage. Stick around! Scotland wasn’t ready this time, but we will be the next.

  223. fred blogger says:

    ian brotherhood
    yes that obviously 🙂 and in the face of lies.

  224. Brian McHugh says:

    To all old Labour folks… A political party is only a political party. ‘Labour’ is only a name. It is the principles which count. The SNP are the new popular Left of Centre party… With the Socialists and Greens holding their own positions.

    Labour died when the Bullington boys decided to infiltrate it from within, take it overa and destroy all that it was and stood for.

    No one should be sentimental about a name. Times move on.

  225. Grouse Beater says:

    David says: Anger does nothing except make you thrash out uselessly.

    And where did you suddenly come from? Whoever you are, keep your patronising crap for someone else.

    Did I say we should all go beat someone up, or kick a cat?

    As for your limp wristed game of chess analogy – did the Irish say, we will have to play a good game of dominoes with the English if we are to get our country back again? (That’s a rhetorical question.)

    I wrote about hard-nose protest.

    Get a grip.

    If you want to lead you’re too bloody late appearing here.

  226. Drepf says:

    So the Murdoch press is a reliable source…when it suits you? You and Eck have an *awful* lot in common.

  227. TJenny says:

    Ian Brotherhood – I loves ya. 🙂

    How about a WOS night sometime soon, in the now famous YESBAR?

  228. bookie from hell says:

    what’s scottish national party in gaelic

  229. handclapping says:

    If you want a channel for your anger

    choose 100 houses near you and tell your local SNP / Green / SSP / Solidarity that if they give you 100 leaflets between now and 7 May you’ll deliver them to those 100 houses come rain hail snow or sunshine.

    You’ll feel a lot better.

  230. Ian Brotherhood says:

    @TJenny –

    Right back at ye, with bells and ribbons on…

    I don’t even know where the Yes Bar is, but it sounds intriguing. I did hear a rumour that Paula Rose has been in secret rehearsals, and that the place has had a pole installed just in case she becomes book-able?


  231. kininvie says:


    While I both hear and feel your anger and passion, it’s only any good if it is tempered by cunning.
    Remember – the British state has dined long and well on angry and impassioned independence movements. It is not new to the game. What it wants to hear is precisely the cry of unrestrained anger. That will give it every excuse. Don’t fall for it.
    Go and steep yourself in history, Grouse. The tactics that have always won for us have been the wearing down of the enemy by making life as difficult as possible, by not giving up, by using every last opportunity to stick needles through the joints in their armour.
    It may not be us; it may not be in our time. But it will happen.

  232. arranc says:

    when i joined the s.n.p in 1958 i joined the scottish national party not nationalist

  233. Graeme Doig says:


    May have misread your comment. Apologies.

    I’m now in total agreement 😉

  234. Proud Cybernat says:

    @ Rock

    “We won’t need to declare UDI. Scotland will become ungovernable by Westminster. They will be left with no choice but to vote for an Independence of Scotland Act.”

    But isn’t Scotland (technically at least) already “ungovernable”? The Tories are in power with only one solitary MP in Scotland. If they had zero MPs in Scotland I doubt even then that it would make a blind bit of difference to them. They would carry on regardless.

    So, what difference will it make if we return a majority of Scottish Indy Alliance MPs to WM unless they declare UDI? And–as per my original question–if we declare UDI will the EU, UN, NATO etc recognise it? Would such a UDI declaration not be regarded as ‘illegitimate’ (ala Kosovo) as it was not ‘agreed’ with Westminster?

    Just trying to get my head around this (in line with Alex Salmond’s recent ‘more ways to skin a cat’ comment).

  235. Big Jock says:

    Been said before but you must read this

  236. Robert Peffers says:

    @liz g says:23 September, 2014 at 8:57 pm:

    “I am hoping that some leadership emerges soon but meanwhile can we at least here,keep reminding ourselves and everyone else the Queen is a non issue for a people who are only trying to choose the best way to run the Country.”

    Liz, There is indeed a legal reason for the debate about the Queen for the whole matter of the Treaty of Union that formed the, “United Kingdom”, really does apply to the royalty and as the actual title attests two Kingdoms that united in 1706/7. Here is the legal facts. The Kingdom of England annexed Wales & Ireland in 1284 & 1542 respectively. In 1603 vthe Scottish King inherited the crown of that three country kingdom of England but could not form an actual Union of the Crowns. In 1688 the Kingdom of England Parliament deposed the English King but as the kingdoms were still independent could not depose the monarch as the king of Scots. The English imported King Billy & Mary and started up the Jacobite uprisings, (1688 – 1745).

    So that made the three country Kingdom of England a Constitutional Monarchy but Scotland still was as she made herself by the Declaration of Arbroath. That is the Monarch is King of Scots but NOT king of Scotland because the Scots people are legally sovereign.

    So that is hy England forced the Treaty of Union to make the United Kingdom. The Treaty, though, stipulates several things – The Scottish Legal system, (people’s sovereignty), is independent. The Scottish education System remains independent and the Monarchy is not head of any church in Scotland.

    So if the Queen of Scots, (the protector of the people’s sovereignty), doesn’t uphold the people of Scotland’s people the people have legal right to sack that monarchy,

    Cameron has just told the World that the ueen of England & Queen of Scots has come down in favour of her English crown in the referendum campaign. As we are the sovereign people of Scotland she has just been legally guilty of treason as defined in the Declaration of Arbroath. Now I’ve nothing against the lady but it provides the chance to declare her deposed for derliction of her duty and we can declare Scotland a republic and republics cannot be part of a Kingdom – united or not.

    Make out of all that what you will.

  237. fred blogger says:

    i’ve decided to go ssp, but will vote tactically.
    does anyone remember the GROT campaign, must do, get rid of the tories?
    it did! 🙂

  238. Ian Brotherhood says:

    @kininvie –

    I hope you and Grouse Beater are not going to fall out over this.

    We all have something to bring to the fight – that’s my interpretation of what GB has stated.

    I’ll happily shout obscenities and jab stiff fingers towards the face of the enemy while you nip behind him and pull out the wee hairs at the back of his knees.

    If we both know what we’re doing – and why – it’s all to the good, no?

  239. Chris Baxter says:

    There will be no renaming of the SNP. Why is this even being discussed?

  240. David says:

    Grouse beater@11:29

    So, apart from the equivelent of verbal (written) masturbation exactly what point did you get across with that?

    That….you are angry.

    Im very glad that the majority of people involved in this are somewhat more capable than you are.

    As for leadership – the strongest movements are the ones with no definite leader to deal with.

    I do repeat however – what IS it you are going to protest that would raise more awareness to the cause than simply engaging people sensibly?

    You sitting outside some institution with your angry mates is gonna just look like you sitting outside some institution with your angry mates and discredit anyone you associate with.

    So far your message is ‘lets get angry’.

    That doesnt work and plays into the establishments hands. Get informed and go inform others. Knowledge will win this not playing on your emotions.

  241. handclapping says:

    Anent HMQ, we only have Cameron’s word for it. Have we all started trusting Tory politicians? 🙁

  242. Daddyo says:

    Graeme Doig says

    No apologies necessary my friend.

    Its late, we are all still grieving.

    In fact I don’t want to go through the seven stages of grief.

    I am staying ANGRY

  243. Midgehunter says:

    I like what Grousebeater said and I would go even further.

    The BBC is nothing more than a WM dept. which is responsible for propaganda.

    Bissett and Irvine are refusing the beeb anything. There should be a complete refusal from everyone incl. the Scot Gov. to give the beeb any information or help with interviews, debates, documentaries or whatever.

    Do what AS did at his resignation speech, don’t invite the biased press and tell them why straight to their faces.

    Sooner or later they’ll just end up talking to themselves and pi** poeple off.

    We need to build up alternative channels to get what we want out.

  244. Grouse Beater says:

    it may not be in our time

    That defeatist talk.

    It WAS our time.

    Instead, we showed the world we were happy to be ruled by the enemy of the people. Scotland can take it. Liberty sucks.

  245. Papadox says:

    @grousebeater 10:34pm

    Excellent post, put me down for some of that.

  246. David says:

    Ian Brotherhood@ 11:21

    I didnt say not to be angry.

    However we are dealing with a state (Britain) who will use everything to discredit us, and that includes making sure there people handy to turn any civic turnout and meeting into a riot. The stakes are going to raise.

    Be angry, but channel it into something positive. Otherwise its a waste of time and energy.

    Th establishment wants people angry and uninformed. I suggest we get the other way round.

  247. Daddyo says:

    David says:
    23 September, 2014 at 11:51 pmGrouse beater@11:29

    So, apart from the equivelent of verbal (written) masturbation exactly what point did you get across with that?

    Alex says we are the most politically aware people in Western Europe. That does not stop us from being angry. It means that we know now how the game is played. as someone said earlier – this was the dress rehearsal

  248. fred blogger says:

    Grouse Beater
    me, i feel, unshakably, it is still our time.

  249. fred blogger says:

    ghandi was very angry, true anger moves mountains.

  250. Robert Peffers says:

    @handclapping says: 23 September, 2014 at 11:51 pm:

    “Anent HMQ, we only have Cameron’s word for it. Have we all started trusting Tory politicians?”

    Of course we don’t. We only believe them when it suits our case to believe them.

  251. Grouse Beater says:

    David: Be angry, but channel it into something positive

    That’s exactly what I advocate. Stop indulging in spin.

    Daddyo: this was the dress rehearsal

    Don’t insult us. It was the real thing, the ‘once in a lifetime’ opportunity. Remember?

  252. Training Day says:

    @Grouse Beater 10.34

    Chapeau Sir. Blistering and fully justified invective against the faint of heart on our side.

  253. Rock says:


    “Hey Rock. please dont dismiss all middle class as no voters.”

    I haven’t dismissed ALL middle class voters, only 95% of them. What % of the middle class do you think voted Yes?

    There are those like you who support independence as a matter of principle.

    But the vast majority are only concerned about any unfavourable effects on them.

    That is why we failed to win in the SNP ‘heartlands’.

    Just like Westminster elections where when it comes to the crunch, middle England voters vote for the party that proposes tax cuts, or at least rules out tax increases despite telling pollsters they are willing to pay more tax for the NHS.

    To get 50%+ support, our best hope is in convincing working class voters who voted No to remain in poverty.

  254. mr thms says:

    I listen to BBC Radio Scotland on the journey to and from work and they rely on audience participation to make up for their lack of journalism. I’ve often wondered how their presenters would cope if they were unable to the opposing points of view. My suggestion is don’t phone-in or tweet.. : )

  255. Grouse Beater says:

    Midgehunter: Bissett and Irvine are refusing the beeb anything. There should be a complete refusal from everyone incl. the Scot Gov. to give the beeb any information or help with interviews, debates, documentaries or whatever.

    Now your talking!

    Why collude?

    BBC Scotland promoted the UK government line, and altered reality to suit that propaganda. It’s been doing it openly for Westminster since its inception. As Salmond point sout, it confuses the role of a public broadcaster with a state broadcaster. The BBC stood Andy Murray’s statement on its head by describing it as a ‘regret,’ when in fact he said he had ‘no regrets’ about tweeting support for indepedence.

    Orwell worked in that very BBC department that took its orders from the ministry during the war years. It gave him the idea for the ‘Ministry of Truth’ in his bleak novel 1984.

    Many of the celebrities who asked us to vote against Scotland’s best interests were protecting their own back pocket because their careers depend on London management. Those who refuse BBC interviews or chat shows do the right thing – but it musn’t be a one day rebellion.

  256. Bob W says:


    I prefer angry and informed

  257. tombee says:


    regarding you version of the Scottish national anthem:

    From a YES voting pensioner,


    Just the sort of asshole who will cause division and deter repentance.

  258. Kenny says:

    Well said by Grouse Beater. That is the way forward. Why play by the rules when they do not play by the rules? As for Liz, how can this immoral woman sleep at night when there are foodbacks in her country? She is an absolute disgrace. We talk about Zimbabwe, Iran, China, Uzbekistan, all these terrible despotic nations, but even their leaders at one point in their lives stood for election! I wonder if it is worth our while preparing for Charles taking over and planning an internet vote in time for that, say: who do you want as head of state, Charles or someone like Lesley Riddoch or Sean Connery, for example,

  259. Grouse Beater says:

    Fred Blogger: Gandhi was very angry; true anger moves mountains.

    A good example.

    As colonialists found to their cost, Afrikaners and then British alike, there is nothing more violent than a determined, stoical man taking aphysical beating who insists on protesting his rights and won’t shift his ground one inch.

  260. Daddyo says:

    Grouse Beater says
    Don’t insult us. It was the real thing, the ‘once in a lifetime’ opportunity. Remember?

    No insult intended. The fight continues or we start wearing flat caps and raising whippits. Alex said he “personally” would not raise the indy question again. That means the rest of us can – and will.

    I have got a wee while yet before my four score and ten is up. We as a family will do what we can for all the little Broons that are here and on the way. What else can you do except fight until you can’t fight anymore. BTW we all joined the SNP tonight thats another six

  261. David says:


    I want to address 2 things you have said.

    1 – justified anger. This movement has a large number of older people in it who have wanted Scottish independence their wholes lives. The only difference between your anger and theirs is that they are man enough to deal with it.

    2 – you mentioned south american countries fighting for their liberty as an example of people doing what they need to in order to set their country free. Thats probably because people were being dragged out of their houses and shot for speaking against the dictator in charge, or being imprisoned for not having papers. We’re not quite there yet.

    Perspective buddy 😉

  262. Grouse Beater says:

    If the bank, the broadcaster, the store, your political representative, is the enemy of your countrymen’s hopes don’t collaborate with the bastards.

    Those who voted No, a good many did so thinking they could shirk the unpleasant stuff that comes with being an independent country.

    They were fools and were fooled.

  263. Ian Brotherhood says:

    @David –

    I feel embarrassed for you.

    Please, please, just give it up.

  264. Daddyo says:

    David says:
    24 September, 2014 at 12:28 am@Grousebeater

    I want to address 2 things you have said

    well said David.

    But remember we are all still hurting.

    We all deserve a break. Good news is that everyone is still here. All the posters who have made me smile and laugh. Wings, the WGD, Bateman et al.

    This is our country writ large – so very proud

  265. Molly says:

    Mr thms ,
    Notice when on morning call they’re struggling listen out for wee Brian from Kincardine – he’s a favourite .

    I read somewhere on Twitter ,the owner of the Yesbar wouldn’t give the BBC the time of day as well –

  266. Rock says:

    Proud Cybernat,

    “But isn’t Scotland (technically at least) already “ungovernable”? The Tories are in power with only one solitary MP in Scotland.”

    You are forgetting their Lib Dem coalition partners. And including Labour, there is an overwhelming UNIONIST majority in Scotland.

    But if we get 59 pro-independence MPs at Westminster in 2015, what credibility do you think the unionists will have for imposing Westminster laws on Scotland?

    Even a Tory-Labour-LibDem-UKIP coalition majority government at Westminster would not be able to impose any Westminster laws onto us.

    I am confident that given the scale of betrayal, we will be within striking distance of a clean Yes sweep in 2015, provided that the various Yes sides make a deal on fielding single Yes candidates.

    The least Yes got in any area was 30%. In the first past the post system, we would have an advantage.

    If Labour or Lib Dems united with the Tories in putting forward single unionist candidates, they would be finished.

  267. yesindyref2 says:

    Grouse Beater
    The point about the first referendum being a “dress rehearsal”, something I used on Saturday or Sunday in the Herald as well, is that there will be another one.

    It’s positive, not negative.

  268. yesindyref2 says:

    Oops, meant to stay off. Well I did join the SNP, shock horror. £12 for one year. Over 56,000 members, it’d be kind of cool if it hit 100,000 over the next week or two, and overtook the Conservatives in the whole UK.

    I believe students and 65 or over get a reduction or free, no idea which.

  269. Rock says:


    “Rock, having phoned home to the wife tonight, she did her first shop in Aldi and Lidl today, she said it was alright and a helluva lot cheaper.”

    In all our spending, we absolutely must find alternatives to the unionist scum, whether it be groceries or banking.

    And try to cut down on spending as much as possible and help the poor with whatever saved.

    Like the ancient Spartans, if we are disciplined enough and cut down on consumerism, we can beat big business.

  270. Grouse Beater says:

    Kenny: We talk about Zimbabwe, Iran, China, Uzbekistan, all these terrible despotic nations…

    … as if Scotland has not been downgraded to the same status by its English masters.

    England’s rulers and their lickspittle Scottish employees treated Scotland as if a second-rate, backward province because that’s how they see us.

    Apologies for altering the second half of your sentence. I agree with all you say and only wish to develop it.

  271. David says:

    Well its been a nice little discussion but im done for the nicht. Ill just say this –

    I agree with targetted protests, boycotting certain institutions and companies, not collaborating with media channels and newspapers etc.

    But if you want an effective way to make this an unstoppable movement is – you figure out how to explain to pensioners why their pension is still safe, you figure out how we perhaps get unused public ground turned into public allotments to help stock the foodbanks, you find a way to engage the middle class people who, rightly or wrongly, feel alienated by a heavily left leaning movement. Get yourself conversational on economy and currency. Generally try to empathize and connect with those who voted NO the first time. The list could go on.

    Obviously we can do both but you have to be careful with anger guys, regimes and dictators have used anger to their advantage for centuries. I know of one bunch who will be looking to use ours.

  272. Ian Brotherhood says:

    @yesindyref2 –

    Dress rehearsal?

    Aye. Cheers.

    Someone could’ve told me that before I got 18.09.14 tattooed across my forehead.

  273. Edward says:

    Actually I think we should dump ‘Flower of Scotland from a great height!
    All the 90 min ‘Proud to be Scots but’ brigade, the so called 55% will want to keep attached to FOS as they see it as their ‘anthem’
    Frankly it should have been dumped ages ago. Its the antithesis of what is wrong, its the ‘plucky’ subservient crap that we are expected to sing.

    I would suggest that we start singing ‘Caledonia’, even if the band strikes up FOS

    Remember during the second world war the Dutch would start singing ‘Het Wilhelmus’ even when it was outlawed

    Nothing would annoy the establishment more than Scots singing their own anthem and not the funny jock ditty that the establishment allow – think about it!

  274. Rock says:

    We must also boycott the betting companies who made a financial killing out of us in addition to maintaining this rotten to the core union for their self interests.

  275. Daddyo says:

    yesindyref2 says

    The point about the first referendum being a “dress rehearsal”,

    oh it was you. I have been saying this for the last couple of days – thank you

  276. Onwards says:

    Any Scottish national team that continues to use FOS as its anthem is open to ridicule and frankly pathetic

    I would suspect that over 90% of the Tartan Army voted YES.

    It’s the NO voters watching at home that should be embarrassed when that line is sung..

  277. Rock says:

    fred blogger,

    “how about the coop?”

    Johann Lamont is a coop sponsored MSP.

    Do I need to say anything more?

  278. fred blogger says:

    well that’s the end of that then, they get the elbow from now.

  279. Edward says:

    Totally agree
    see my comment a bit up about singing alternative

  280. Daddyo says:

    Edward says:
    24 September, 2014 at 12:49 amDaddyo
    Actually I think we should dump ‘Flower of Scotland from a great height!

    I do understand your point – I felt the same way too until when you think about it Scotland didn’t rise to be a nation again – we are still in the process. However all the NO’s should keep silent, they had their chance to stand up and they cowered under Westminsters duvet.

    The “45” knows what it means. The rest can sing “Aunty Mary” because they have made a mockery of Scotland

  281. Wee Alex says:

    Has nobody noticed how Cameron has stitched up David (sorry Ed) Milliband and his Labour cohorts in Scotlandshire.

    1st he proposes that England matters should only be decided by English MPs. Common sense says he is correct but Labour needs the votes of Scottish MPs and will object. More votes for Tories in England.

    1-0 Cameron

    Cameron also says Scotland should get less money. He has the support of 70% of English voters. Millie objects but loses votes in England.

    2-0 Cameron.

    Polls in England says Barnett should be revised, Millie objects (will he hell).

    3-0 Cameron.

    Lamont, Baillie, Murphy stitched up like a kipper, British Labour Party has nowhere to go, Scotland shafted, personally am looking forward to mass resignations from Scottish Labour.

  282. Onwards says:

    Comment at the bottom:

    “Correction: This article originally referred to the Scottish Nationalist Party, when of course we were referring to Scotland’s main nationalist party, the Scottish National Party (SNP).”

  283. Grouse Beater says:

    David: We’re not quite there yet.

    You are an idiot:

    Mass surveillance of citizens; suppression of facts and information; unaccountable assassinations by British hit squads both in the UK and abroad, collusion in torture and rendition; embassy murderers and spies allowed freedom to return to their homeland; assassination of character and reputation by press and media acting on clandestine information from unatributed government sources; taxes spent on spy satellites and weapons of mass destruction without democratic agreement or accountability; unlawful collusion between politician in high office, companies and corporations; conspiracies to pervert interest rates in order to steal from investors; unlawful gambling with pension funds for private gain; depiction of individuals as ‘terrorists’ while state terrorism is portrayed and glorified as imposing western democracy; the removal of Scotland’s right to self-governance hailed as a free and open vote..

  284. Kenny says:

    I am so inspired by all our young folk. That will confuse the Daily Hate, which thinks all youngesters cannot count above ten and are capable of anything more than text speak. I was convinced, even before the results, that the genie was out of the bottle and it would have been better for WM to just give us independence on 18 September. Glad we are NOT going back into the box. In fact, we are going to make even more noise than before!

    Forgot to add, because these forums will certainly be read by our beloved security agencies, dinnae forget tae post as much as ye can in muckle broad Scots. That will slow them down a bit as they reach for the Scots-English dictionary – they may even have to employ some more Scots at GCHQ, so a win-win situation for Scots!

  285. Kenny says:

    sorry, for “capable”, read “incapable”

  286. Grouse Beater says:

    Oh, and a corrupt police force.

    Yes, David, living in Britain we are blessed.

  287. Edward says:

    I agree in what your saying
    But believe me, the people that voted No , believe that they can continue to sing FOS and support Scotland at any events as that makes them the little 90 min jocks

    I would like to see these clowns given a good kick in the nuts by those that still believe in Scotland by sing a different song

    Can you imagine the shock at the start of a Scotland game when everyone is expected to sing FOS and something different is sung. That would be a protest tat even the tv coudnt cover up!

  288. yesindyref2 says:

    Yes. I was just not going to post on the Herald again (got to get back to business), but after my bounceback on Friday, helped by reading on WoS, I decided to do my usual and be 3.20 a.m. first poster on a few threads on Sat and Sun for the last time to do my bit to keep the momentum going. And to “get it up you” to the gloating Unionists.

    I wasn’t the first, DDM, TL and AG and others were there already, even on the Friday when I could bring myself to read the threads.

    Sunday Herald had some good stuff, Generation YES and Women for Indy, and the others. A bit of back-sliding from IMcW, but then he was Devo-Max before, so I guess he’s right to go back to that and push it.

  289. Graeme Doig says:

    Grouse Beater

    That’s getting copied, pasted, printed and photocopied and handed out to anyone who dares tell me they voted no. Just to remind them of who they hsnded our country back to on a silver platter.

  290. Donald says:

    I’m sick of hearing people talk about the election next year, its not even been 1 week for Fuck’s Sake and the Unionist parties have already broken 2 of their promises. The first is that they would introduce a motion in Westminster supported by all 3 parties which has not been done, and the second that Barnett Formula would be safe.

    Why the fuck should Scots tolerate this until next year? We need to start protesting NOW. Sorry about the swearing but I’m so unbelievably angry that they can so brazenly break their promises and yet nothing is done.

  291. cearc says:

    Grouse Beater,

    Glad to see you in such fine form.

  292. Fiona says:

    Hmmm. Flower of Scotland is a horrible song, though I have to admit that it appears to be the people’s choice for an anthem. It is mockery now for obvious reasons. Caledonia is not much better since to me it rests on the forced diaspora which is the result of economic policies which favour the rich and the south east, resulting in no jobs here. Post independence it won’t make any sense if we make good political and economic choices

    Freedom come all ye would be my choice, for the sentiments expressed are something I could support no matter what the circumstances. I gather Hamish Henderson opposed its use as a national anthem, preferring to focus on the international aspects. But those things are not in opposition for me: he was a man of his time, perhaps.

    More seriously, I noted above that on the whole the campaign as it was run was very successful. We should not lose sight of that. Nor should we assume that we can claim “our country was stolen”.

    I presume this will annoy many here, but it is my view that we blinded ourselves to reality by being something of an echo chamber. And we are in danger of continuing with that. Those Scots who voted no are still Scots: that is, they are still “us”. And they do not agree with us for whatever reasons they have

    Facts and information persuaded a huge number of people to vote for independence. It is true that lies and disinformation appear to have swayed a bigger number to vote against. But those who voted no do not think that. Many of them believe they have the facts, and they have not realised that their “facts” are not true.

    In my circle I found that those who were voting no were not willing to discuss the issues: they really did not wish to engage or to be informed. Mostly they seemed to wish the whole thing had never been raised and they did not want to think about it. Not all, of course, and some did debate and change their minds: but a lot would not even talk about it.

    I mentioned before that when I had no internet access I was struck by how strong the propaganda machine was when all you had was MSM: and for a lot on the no side that is all they had – especially the elderly, probably. The rather subtle drip feed of misinformation is not all that easy to spot, though Rev Campbell is rather good at identifying that for those of us who are not so media savvy.

    The point is that when there is access to that kind of information, backed up with sources and evidence it DOES work. We can see that in the success of the campaign.

    Please do not let us rush to change a successful strategy, nor suppose that we made obvious errors with the benefit of hindsight. My hindsight may not be 20:20 but I am pretty sure that no campaign is perfect, and this one was very good indeed.

    The information matters: the tone matters: the optimism and the political engagement matters. Those are things we need to hang on to for I am sure they were effective, despite the result on the day

    What we need to do now, I think, is twofold. My first priority is to find a way of countering the MSM, however we can best do that. There are lots of suggestions around and it is early days: we need to settle on a strategy for that and implement it when we are agreed.

    Secondly I would like to know more about what powers the SG actually has, and how we can do more to make the kind of country we want to live in. I an not against the “get labour out” policy though I do not think that is going to be as easy as some seem to suppose. But I am not really seeing how this is going to get us very much. I understand the idea of holding the balance of power at westminster but I do not think that will happen. Even if it does I don’t really see how it helps. There are tories and tories at Westminster and they all agree on most things: so they do not need support from a minority most of the time on the issues that matter. They tinker but the general thrust of more austerity is a shared value, for example. Balance of power is useless in those circumstances.

    We need to focus on Holyrood: good governance there has brought many to vote yes, I believe. It has also commanded votes from those who will never support independence but who like what Holyrood has done and will vote SNP in Scottish polls.

    Lack of fiscal autonomy limits what we can do and so it is important to get as much devo as we can, and do radical things with it in the future. I do not think that means losing sight of the goal of independence but I think it is important to remember that day to day it is the quality of life of all our citizens which is our first responsibility: we do not hunger or weep in the abstract and jam tomorrow is no better for our side than for unionists. Growth as measured by GDP etc is of no earthly use at all if the people do not benefit. “Jobless recoveries” are an absurdity of the same sort. Let us begin to think about how we can provide secure well paid jobs in Scotland;and a decent standard of living for those who are not able to work, either because of lack of jobs or through incapacity.

    At present we cannot pursue a course of deficit spending a la keynes or MMT because we do not have control of our economy. But there are certainly things we can do in choosing how to spend the income we do have. One part of that is to challenge the “tax is bad” certainty now so familiar: we did not always think so and we need not think so in the future. It is not so widely accepted in Scandinavia, where the relation between tax and services has not been comprehensively broken in the public mind. If we altered that there is a great deal we could do: and it is probably true we would see the uber rich become tax exiles. So what? I don’t see what good they do in any case: and if they are doing some good then there are many who will fill those roles if they do leave. I see no evidence that they are special or that they earn their big bucks through talent or hard work to any great extent. Rather they make money when times are easy and through corruption: and when the economic climate is poor they fail in spades. And the rest of us pay to bail them out. Their real currency is blackmail, and it is time we saw that these emperors are naked.

    Many will not agree with any of that. But it is the kind of fundamental shift in the debate I want to see inform policy

  293. pmcrek says:

    Bugger the Panda,

    The site makes lots of claims none of them backed with any evidence just prose. The only accounts I’ve seen from people at the count (about 4 or 5 people so far on Wings) said everything was above board.

    If they had the information they claimed I don’t see why they wouldn’t be distributing the details as widely as possible as any rational person under such circumstances would.

  294. Balaaargh says:

    Just a thought: if they’re going to give us “more” powers, maybe they can start by returning the one they’ve already taken – renewable energy.

  295. Clarinda says:

    Fiona – calm and rational – thank you.

    Raw feelings and words are perfectly understandable (still trying to bargain with myself) – but the last thing we need is inter-independence supporter anger and divisions. Many are still devastated and shocked but the naff ‘don’t get angry get even’ is where we should head. As you say “tone- optimism and – engagement” are vital to sustain. Leave the blame game to it’s own self-destruct mode and move on with the different experience and better understanding we now have of what is in front of us.

    The gradualist approach of the SNP, although some would say too slow, has brought remarkable results – how short-sighted to sabotage a successful process rather than improve its strategy and reach.

    While I’m at it,elsewhere, could we drop the various “class” claims and accusations – a major exercise is surely to concentrate on the solutions to the problems of propaganda etc. which affect the vulnerable and resistant in equal negative and ‘positive’ measure. No point doing the work of the opposition for them.

    Freedom all ye – the sentiment is relevant I can’t disagree and the melody is beautiful and redolent of Scottish themes. Karine Polwart singing it in the Italian Chapel on Orkney is just excellent – probably on youtube?

  296. Clarinda says:

    Sorry – ‘Freedom come all ye’ – it should be. The clip of Karine Polwart singing it is out there somewhere.

  297. tonymac says:

    bookie from hell says:
    23 September, 2014 at 11:34 pm

    what’s scottish national party in gaelic

    The Scottish National Party (SNP; Scottish Gaelic: Pàrtaidh Nàiseanta na h-Alba, Scots: Scots Naitional Pairtie)

  298. David G. says:

    When Cameron opens his mouth like that you can see his controlling ghoul trying to pop out. Why or why, except for the pensioners, did the Scots vote no?

  299. Dorothy Devine says:

    NOW that I have time on my hands to read newspapers, I noted the musings from my self-appointed biographer David Torrance (Why the Salmond magic is in need of a revisionist take, The Herald, September 22).

    I understand, of course, that thus far the general Scottish response to the referendum is the exact opposite of what Tory-leaning David would have wished, and also he must be totally devastated by my standing down – thus depriving him of a lucrative income stream.

    However, allow me just two observations. First, I hardly know David Torrance. And secondly – and much more problematically for a biographer – he doesn’t know me at all.

    Rt Hon Alex Salmond MSP,

    First Minister,

    Bute House, Edinburgh.”

    That’s told the wee shit Mr Salmond – several more to respond too yet. Please take the time and trouble with your lawyers to peruse the writings of the three “C’s” , I would dearly love it if you could now sue the ba$tard$ for their thirty pieces of siller!

    And may I draw your attention to OBE of Herald fame who continues to defame without a blink from their so called moderators.

    May I plead again for those who respond to the usual suspects in the herald or any other rag ,to desist.
    Please leave the frothing and the spiteful to their own devices and the papers to their fate.

    Grousebeater , I am angry and I agree that nicey ,nicey didn’t do much. Those with the ability to respond to the shite delivered played the rational card and got nowhere – the gloves should have been off a long time ago with the media of Scotland.

    The fact that Torrance thought he could write his crappy wee article denigrating the FM after the FMs resignation says it all about the media.
    Their inability to realise they have been sussed by nearly half the population will ring the death knell of some papers and good riddance .

  300. bugsbunny says:

    Well done Grousebeater. I’ve had to hold my tongue and bit my lip since Friday having to listen to fucking idiots bragging about voting no. A shower of cunts the lot of them. As well as boycotting companies, I will now boycott known individuals, who in my eyes, are guilty of treason.


  301. Mealer says:

    Last Thursday,they didn’t “save the union”.What happened was a majority of Scots gave Westminster one last chance to save the union.They have to deliver Better Together in The Best of Both Worllds.Quick.Can they? Will they? Well,they’re not off to the flying start they promised.
    I hope all trade union members will make sure their branch supports Devo max in the forthcoming consultation.Including control of oil revenues.Its the most effective thing any Yes supporting union member can do right now.

  302. Capella says:

    I agree with your analysis and that our main problem is the power of the media to spread propaganda. Developing an alternative is a priority.
    But a campaign to gain a majority in Westminster would continue focusing on the failure of Labour to represent the interests of their constituents. They have betrayed their own founding principles as have the Liberals. Voters need to understand that.
    If voting intentions for Holyrood can be replicated in Westminster, SNP would have c 50% of the vote and so 47 MPs.
    Why ignore an opportunity to continue the dialogue and engage voters?

  303. Bugger (the Panda) says:

    @ Mr thms

    Re .scot

    I registered

    And earlier

    Now wurrafuk do I do with them?


  304. Charles Edward says:

    Roll on the proliferation of pro-indy sites!

    I need to see our creativity on display, intelligent comment, facts and positivity.

    Scotland unfree will never be at peace.

  305. Caroline Corfield says:

    the side with 55% votes did not win anything, they did not win the status quo neither did they win devo max, they won, it would appear, a souvenir full page advert printed in the Daily Record. I take great amusement in firstly asking why they are so angry having won, and what it was they think they won?

  306. Charles Edward says:

    If the bt wierdos are now thinking it acceptable to snigger about their underhand tactics to achieve their end it’s not much of a stretch to now understand without doubt they are responsible for rigging the vote results.

    I hope the electoral commission are unbiased, there are bt agents working at every level. Perhaps after people who have the hard proof have been in touch with the relevant authority this info should be collected and presented factually for us all to see.

  307. john king says:

    AuldA says
    “I wonder how many Yes supporters would also opt for a Republic like the Irish did.
    And maybe transfer the royal properties to the future Scottish state?”

    Alex Salmond for Presedent anyone?
    Anyone know of a wee
    Pied-a-terre walking distance from the parly? 🙂

  308. Capella says:

    I see 3 issues which need to be addressed:
    First, political parties which claim to represent the interests of their constituents but betray them. The three unionist parties are the outstanding examples.
    Second, the media which propagates false information, lies and deceit on behalf of the corporations which buy these politicians.
    Third, the “Devo Max” promise which fooled voters into voting NO.
    We could campaign to depose corrupt politicians.
    We could arrange a conference around the theme of “What’s wrong with our media?” I can no longer listen to BBC TV or radio. Even if they restored programmes like “Headlines” with Ken MacDonald, who is excellent, all we would hear is MSM headlines dripping more propaganda into our lives. All we hear is radio GAGA!
    We must be prepared to respond to whatever botched version of Devo Max Westminster tries to sell us.

  309. Ken500 says:

    Hopefully,Daily Record sales will reach oblivion. They will pay for their treachery.

  310. john king says:

    for anyone who wants to put an accent over a letter such as the e in pied-a-terre let me give you some advice, DONT EVEN TRY, THAT WAY LIES MADNESS, 🙁

  311. Grouse Beater says:

    BBC, safe in a united ‘country,’ has returned to its old ways of not differentiating between Scotland and England when it reports on issues that affect only England.

    It didn’t take it long, a couple of days.

  312. Paula Rose says:

    Mealer said this:

    Last Thursday,they didn’t “save the union”.What happened was a majority of Scots gave Westminster one last chance to save the union.They have to deliver Better Together in The Best of Both Worllds.Quick.Can they? Will they? Well,they’re not off to the flying start they promised.

    I quite agree.

  313. Fred says:

    Anent, Davidson & Lamont’s “bayoneting the wounded” & “killing the nationalist virus”, if they didnae blaw they wid burst!
    Daphne Broon looks more like a loser than a winner these days and is not genetically programmed to run a menodge, never mind a party/country.

  314. Grouse Beater says:

    Westminster is preparing us for another illegal war.

    They claim, ‘The whole of the western world is threatened.’

    Is it? Really?

    In which case, why are we asked to leave our ‘country’ and not staying here to protect our homes? Where is the money coming from to fund more mass destruction? Oil revenues?

    Why are we expected to let our sons and daughters die in a ‘foreign’ land when there are other ways to stop the psychopaths we trained? Will the politicians who exhort us to maintain endless wars send their sons to die?

  315. davidb says:

    For goodness sake stop all republican discourse. Once Scotland is free you can campaign for that if you want. We lost because we did not include enough Conservative people nor older people. Try not to alienate anyone else eh?

    One commonly agreed thing is all that matters. The one 70% of people agreed with. Scotland should run her own affairs.

    After we have achieved independence you can argue for anything you want. For now, lets try to reach out to everyone who voted no.

  316. Fairliered says:

    Grousebeater: Why are you still listening to the BBC?

  317. Macart says:

    @Dorothy Devine

    They’ll have their day in the sun Dorothy, but there are massive clouds on the horizon.

    We lost this round narrowly in the teeth of the largest propaganda campaign HMG has thrown at anyone since they were on a war footing. This was nothing like a free and democratic debate or vote. An entire state and media brought its weight to bear to force a result and got over the line with fear and intimidation as their greatest tool.

    Short sighted doesn’t cover it. What they’ve done is stoked a fire in the YES campaign that won’t easily be put out and fostered resentment and regret amongst those who voted no against their better instinct. Both will grow.

    Labour, HMGs handy tool in Scotland, have put themselves in the worst of all positions. They are now out there for all to see as agents of the establishment bought and paid for. They deliberately set about defaming, smearing, misleading and lying to their own electorate.

    They’re quite proud of the fact too apparently. Viable tactic to manipulate peoples fears for your own gain, don’t you know?

    They’ve just written there own exit visa as far as I’m concerned. Right now they rank right down there with their ideological chums the Tories and that’s something I never thought to hear myself say.

    What’s coming over the horizon for Scotland is going to be awful to bear in the meantime, but we need to be absolutely clear about where the blame lies and its not with those who voted no on the day, but with those who manipulated this outcome. HMG, the ugly sisters in the commons and the great British media.

    I suspect there will be a lot of electoral success for the current Scottish government in the next two years for a whole host of reasons, but if they wan’t to survive having to manage the decline of hard fought for Scottish services and administration of the appalling clusterfuck that is whatever devo bollox HMG sees fit to gift, then they have to be utterly transparent and inclusive with the public. They have to bring the public on board and explain in crystal clarity why cuts will be made, why taxes are going up and why services will no longer be available.

    People understand adversity and will carry on so long as they see light at the end of the tunnel and feel they are part of the effort to survive it. But most importantly they need to be made fully aware in the simplest of terms what the causes are and where the blame lies.

    Reconciliation is the buzz word with Labour right now. They’ve got a GE to fight I hear. Well for any Labour luvvies perusing these threads, I have no problem with workmates or friends who voted no. In fact I get on quite well with them.

    However, I have a special reception in mind for any prick in a red rosette who comes knocking at my door looking for a vote. In times past I’d have invited them in for a cuppa and a chat. Hell I even voted for their candidates if I felt they represented what I was looking for at the time. No more and never again.

  318. Ken500 says:

    Brown & Cameron will pay for their treachery. There are other ways to skin a rabbit. They won’t be crowing very long. Chicken. Waiting to hatch. Judgement day is coming. Sinners.

  319. Snode1965 says:

    I think it is time to move on from electoral fraud theories, unless someone can compile a ” pelican brief” report. Also regarding the overheard Cameron comments, that was no accident. They will use any tatic to split our movement, using republican sentiment is just the first of many.

  320. Albalha says:


    I’ve just gone through all the Westminster Scottish seats and I’d say the SNP has a chance in 34,not the rest where I think very good independents/exisiting parties may have a chance.

    Also I reckon there’s a possibility the SNP will lose Perth and North Perthshire to the Tories.

    Great if there could be cross party/cross group agreement, we’ll see.

  321. Bugger (the Panda) says:

    John King

    you mean the à in pied-à-terre?


  322. Sinky says:

    SNP new members since last Thursday now stands at over 31,600.

    Be part of it and shape the policies of Scotland’s largest political party.

    Go to or phone 0800 633 5432

  323. The logic defeats me.
    Because the voting system and the numbers totally Benefit SLAB in Scotland, so someone please explain how a couple of hundred new SNP Members in 59 x Scottish Constituences will submerge SLAB MP MAJORITIES that average 7,000 votes.?

    For instance, on a huge turnout of over 77 per cent Skeletor got a maj of over 10,000 in 2010.
    Eric Joyce maj = 7,843.
    Cathy Jamieson maj = 12,000 PLUS.
    Willie Bain maj = 15,900
    Ian Davidson maj = 14,600 – and the list is long.

    If SNP gets a membership of 118,000 that supplies around 2,000 votes in 59 constituences versus SLAB Majorities of 7,000 plus – within a rigged voting system Controlled by SLAB.

    The absurdity of Postal Voting reflected a result of –
    “NO” = 70 PER CENT
    “yes” = 30 percent.
    Numbers NOT reflected anywhere else across the Indy Ref.

    Idiots on this website Boasted about their Postal Votes but have become sullenly shy because THEY helped to lose us the IndyRef.

    Rather than CAMPAIGN for a trackable voting system where Ballot Boxes have GPS TRACKING and Postal Votes ARE counted by Foreign Democrats – we will repeat the same idiocy in May 2015 for WM.

    Rev Stuart Campbell and Scott Minto have taken Indy Ref Polls to pieces – but the Indy Ref Results are left in abeyance.?

  324. Bugger (the Panda) says:

    John King

    re Royal Properties

    all the heritage castles and palaces in Scotland are already owned by the people.

    The exception is Balmoral which is owned by an off shore company, Jersey based I believe. It was set up that way when it was built.

  325. Nana Smith says:

    Labour party truly in the gutter, move over Tory party make room for your pals.

    From the Morningstar…

    HEARTLESS Labour chiefs forced a group of disabled delegates to give up their seats for “party suits” minutes before Ed Miliband’s speech yesterday, the Morning Star can reveal.

    Delegate and Morning Star contributor Bernadette Horton tripped and fell as she was shifted so some “bright young things” could be in place to shake the Labour leader’s hand.

    “As I was going up the stairs I just lost my footing and fell,” said Ms Horton who walks with a crutch.

    “I was really upset and shaken.”

    Venue stewards told the party worker the seats had been specially assigned to the 15 disabled delegates but were overruled.

    Ms Horton said: “The people in suits saw this but didn’t say anything. I said ‘if you’re Labour you should be ashamed.’

  326. Grouse Beater says:

    Fairliered: Why are you still listening to the BBC?

    I don’t listen to them. I hear them.

    “Why should a Scottish voter listen to you, a politician, against men who are in charge of billions of pounds of profits?”

    Nick Robinson – BBC.

    That’s the world we inhabit – captains of industry and bankers, members of their own elite clubs, are honest upstanding citizens justified in paying themselves gargantuan salaries and bonuses and avoiding tax while society goes to hell, but our elected representatives, in particular, those doing all they can to empower us, only show how gullible we all are believing their word is truth.

  327. bookie from hell says:

    If Devo proposals are way short

    another referendum,not independence but federal union

    currency union— can’t be attacked on that

  328. manandboy says:

    A NEW DAY ( )

    Whatever else we usually do

    we all have a new job –


    But our first priority upon reorganising

    will be to clear Scotland of ALL UNIONIST MP’S

    at the next general Election,

    particularly Labour MP’s, the RED TORIES,

    and to elect in May 2015, Independence minded MP’s

    to send to Westminster.

    Every day from now on, we must all get up for INDY WORK.

    Each of us should try to do at least ONE TINY THING

    each day to further Scotland’s Independence.

    It might be as simple as wearing a YES badge.

    Think of your badge as an INVITATION TO OTHERS to have a chat with you about Independence.

    Another tiny thing -but very effective – is to put a YES sticker on your car.

    As part of the workforce please consider joining the SNP,

    in order to create a powerful voice for Independence –

    and to put pressure on the Westminster establishment.

    If you really don’t fancy SNP then join the Greens

    or the SSP, but BE PART of the Independence Alliance.

    REMEMBER : UNITY IN DIVERSITY (eg. a family – in which each member is different but all remain part of the family)

    SNP membership is now 50,000 Plus.

    Let’s go for 100,000 !

    That’ll make David Cameron’s bowels move!

    YES, a new day leading to a new Dawn.

  329. cooke says:

    New snp member ……. Most people I know are joining , I’m confused as to where the no voters all came from as out of everyone I know …I know only 2 No voters btw are there don’t blame me I voted yes tshirts cause I know a lot of people who would like them !

  330. Ian Brotherhood says:

    Here’s a snap of the Bullingdon Boys which has just been on the WOS Twitter feed.

    One of the guys in the picture is the current prime minister. Another chap in the picture is quite likely to be the next prime minister.

    So, what’s happening? Are they taking turns? Do we have to wait generations, until they and/or their offspring have all had a shot at standing on our faces?

    FFS, look at them – look at their dead eyes. And imagine them making decisions which hurt and impoverish your grandchildren.

    It’ll be the fight of our lives, but we have to get away from these maniacs.

  331. Grouse Beater says:

    Macart: I have a special reception in mind for any prick in a red rosette who comes knocking at my door looking for a vote

    Seconded. Let them know they pissed on the human spirit.

  332. HandandShrimp says:

    SNP membership now over 57,000 and still rising (I need to pick one to join).

    The fall out of the vote has been remarkable with all the Yes parties and activist groups flourishing and the No ones falling away. I would agree with Fred in that Lamont and her team look like they are in the wilderness.

    I wonder just what the message is that Labour are getting from their (remaining) rank and file.

  333. john king says:

    BtP says
    “you mean the à in pied-à-terre?”

    Thats what I said “a” 😉
    When I tried to put an accent over the a(I did say e)I made the text ten times as big, then when I tried to fix it, I turned it on its side,
    At one point I lost the will to live,
    I’ll never go there again! 🙂

  334. john king says:

    Macart says
    “However, I have a special reception in mind for any prick in a red rosette who comes knocking at my door looking for a vote. ”

    I have a question,
    Does you reception include boiling oil?
    and can we watch?

  335. john king says:

    BtP @8.49
    I knew we owned Holyrood palace but I didnt know Balmoral was owned by an offshore company. the things you learn!

  336. Bugger (the Panda) says:

    Has Lamont not resigned yet?

    She must be hanging out for a honurr?

  337. Macart says:

    @Grouse and John

    Ideas on a postcard. 🙂

  338. john king says:

    I dont think I could cope with watching that slug Murphy in Hlpolyrood every week at FMQ’S
    Thats oor thursday day oot buggered, I would go armed if we went to the parly!

    and for the MI5 guys on here, by armed I mean rotten eggs. 🙂

  339. Calgacus says:

    @David, I found your remarks earlier on to Grousebeater to be extremely patronising. We have been cheated out of our liberty by one of the most corrupt regimes on earth. We are angry and we are staying angry. Deal with it.

  340. Wee Alex says:

    How to win seats at Westminster?

    Target the 42%. Labour voters who voted yes. Target the recently registered voters. Target the neutral no voter who discovers they were duped.

    I suspect borders, Orkney and Shetland are lost causes but every other seat is winnable.

    Danny Alexander is toast anyway. The Lib Dems will lose their deposits in 40 seats.

    The Tories could win the likes of Stirling and Dumfries and Galloway so you can expect the usual scare tactics from Labour – “only the Labour Party can beat the Tories”.

    The advantage the SNP now has is workers on the ground.

  341. john king says:

    Im with the boiling oil Macart,
    maybe a few feathers? (white) 🙂

  342. Albalha says:

    Here, in my view, the seats the SNP are unlikely to win, may the best candidate from elsewhere get a free run, sadly not convinced, we’ll see.

    Aberdeen South – Kirkcaldy and Cowdenbeath – Dumfries and Galloway – NE Fife – Orkney and Shetland – Coatbridge/Chryston/Bellshill – Edinburgh West – Edinburgh South West – Glasgow SW – Dunfermline West Fife – Rutherglen and Hamilton West – Ross/Skye/Lochaber – Edinburgh North and Leith – Glasgow North – Berwickshire/Roxburgh/Selkirk – Dumfriesshire/Clydesdale/Tweedale – East Renfrewshire – Edinburgh South – East Lothian – Glasgow NW – Glenrothes – Paisley/Renfrewsire North – West Aberdeenshire/Kincardine – East Dunbartonshire

  343. Grouse Beater says:

    Clarinda: Don’t get angry, get even.’

    They are not mutually exclusive.

    The EDL, BNP, and Orange Lodge thugs running amok in George Square were externalising exactly what unionists expressed and organised, and think of us.

    They were the Murphies and the Alexanders and the Darlings but with a skinhead haircut, and a Nazi salute.

    They were not separate, they were not an abberation – they were a physical manifestation of Westminster’s attitude to our democratic rights.

    Look and learn.

    In the face of unmitigated intimidation, harrassment and lies, bourgeois good manners did not secure sovereignty for the people.

    Whatever next?

    A cupcake bake-off?

  344. Albalha says:

    @wee alex

    Re Stirling I think the SNP have a good shout if people desert Labour, as for the Tories, as I’ve said, I think they may well take Perth and North Perthshire back from the SNP and as you say possibly Dumfries and Galloway from Labour.

    We’d need very strong candidates to stand in seats SNP are unlikely to win.

  345. ChrisB says:

    Ian Brotherhood at 9:02 am

    Here’s a snap of the Bullingdon Boys which has just been on the WOS Twitter feed.

    There was some funny business about that picture. At one stage the media weren’t allowed to show it, so Newsnight (of all people) had a painting of it done – which they could show:

    There’s another Bullingdon picture showing Osborne.
    Someone may have been photoshopped out of it. I know of two versions, this one:

    and this one, in which a ghost of part of a figure can be seen:

  346. john king says:

    Your not at all wrong there Albalha

    Kirkcaldy and Cowdenbeath 2010
    Gordon Brown
    Labour 29,559 64.5 +6.4
    Douglas Chapman
    Scottish National Party 6,550 14.3 -0.2
    John Mainland
    Liberal Democrat 4,269 9.3 -3.7
    Lindsay Paterson
    Conservative 4,258 9.3 -1.0
    Peter Adams
    UK Independence Party 760 1.7 +0.4
    Susan Archibald
    Independent 184 0.4 +0.4
    Donald MacLaren of MacLaren
    Independent 165 0.4 +0.4
    Derek Jackson
    Land is power 57 0.1 +0.1
    Majority 23,009 50.2
    Turnout 45,802 62.2 +3.8

    you can take a horse to water but you cannot make it drink,

    I seriously doubt that the soft no’es will turn on the Labour party when they renage on the “more powers” spiel, because they didnt bloody care about getting more powers in the first place.

    If we flood the streets with canvassers we can make a huge dent in that majority but I agree, I cant see us winning it.

  347. Ron Maclean says:

    That’s the referendum taken care of – let’s go bombing.

  348. Ian Brotherhood says:

    For all those paying union dues – remember that some of your payment, however small, is siphoned off for the Labour Party. You can ask your union rep for the opt-out form, ensuring they don’t get a penny from you.

    Don’t leave your union – then you’re not protected. But you certainly don’t have to help fund the red Lab Rats. May not seem a big deal, but all those pennies add up, and they’d be spent trying to install a muppet in Downing St.

  349. HandandShrimp says:

    At this point, it is too early to say how the 2015 election will pan out. By May we will have a clearer picture of a number of variables including how well or not Ed is doing, the impact of the many lies that were told to bolster the Union and who is delivering what with regards Home Rule. There will be serious spats between the No parties as all pretence of Better Together is dropped and I think the Liberals are toast.

    The Survation poll last Friday showed little comfort for any of the three No parties either for 2015 or 2016.

  350. Macart says:

    I live in a rural area.

    I was thinking more along the lines of cow shit in a bucket. 🙂

  351. caledonia says:

    Someone should print t-shirts with the vow on them

  352. Midgehunter says:

    Be smart – think smart – act smart.

    Anger is energy, it needs to be channeled to your key policies and tactics. Use it.

  353. Albalha says:

    @john king

    Re Fife in general, such a let down on the night, any chance of winning GE seats, imo, means very strong, well known independents.

    Maybe us Dundonians need to extend our independent thinking sparkle over the silvery Tay to the still, after all those years, stubborn Kingdom!

  354. handclapping says:

    I’m not so sure about NE Fife or Glenrothes.

    NE Fife has had a total collapse of its LibDem organisation and there are too few young Tories to leaflet and canvass. The moot point is the attitude of the St Andrew’s students who could give legs to any campaign they support. Ming isn’t standing again and there is a SNP councillor in every ward.

    Glenrothes not only had the bye election which gives the local SNP heaps of good canvass data but from the samples at Thursday’s count Methil where Labour didn’t count but weighed the boxes in the past was 60:40 Yes. Lindsay Roy isn’t standing again and there is at least one SNP councillor in every ward

  355. Joe Williams says:

    Good morning..We all have a degree in hindsight I commend Alex Salmond for his leadership throughout the campaign sometimes he was a bit naive (especially over the currency deal)Some factions will never vote for Independence they have misplaced Loyalty which was shown on Friday in George Square.
    What needs to happen now is a UNITED YES campaign the vote has been and gone so we lick our wounds and come out fighting stronger but this time let’s get smarter feck a long winded white paper I nearly mispelled the white bit there 😉 what the grassroot people want to really know about is the Currency..the NHS..pensions & investments..Education..Jobs and I dont mean daft schemes to keep the unemployment numbers down Apprenticeships..more junior doctors..more trainee nurses and if a young person wants to be a joiner or plasterer for example their last year or two at school should incorporate a day(s) release to see if they actually want to continue on that line or maybe go for further education. There is an abundance of clever enough people in Scotland to sort this out. So I dont care if you are SNP SSP Green Party or are not affiliated to any one party start being a bit more clever together if it needs a tactical vote then DO it.. we need to pull together on this one lets put the setback behind us and make it work.And I sincerely hope that you keep Messrs. Brown Darling Curran Alexander Murphy and the rest of the Judases in your sights in the next election I’m not advocating retribution it needs to be more severe than that they betrayed the people of Scotland.

  356. Wee Alex says:

    John King,

    Number crunching

    Kirkcaldy and Cowdenbeath 2010
    Gordon Brown
    Labour 29,559 64.5 +6.4
    Douglas Chapman
    Scottish National Party 6,550 14.3 -0.2

    Reduce labour by 42% = 17144

    Add the 42% to SNP = 18964

    New voters can add another 500.

    Just saying.

  357. Footsoldier says:

    @Calcagus. For goodness sake, the UK establishment is far from perfect and as a lifelong indy supporter I cannot agree the UK is one of the most corrupt regimes on earth and to say so is simply ridiculous nonsense. Sneaky, perfidious, dangerous, warring, do anything to win, perhaps complicit in torture (rendition) yes but totally corrupt no. Comments like this could almost have me defending them by playing devil’s advocate.

    A corrupt regime would never had permitted a referendum and there are plenty of such regimes to choose from the world over. Even raising the question could be a death sentence in some of these countries. May I suggest this is tried out in North Korea or China but don’t expect to be coming back.

    We were gubbed, accept it. Treat the referendum as a trial run for the next one.

  358. chalks says:

    I was of the same opinion about Flower of Scotland as you guys, but not anymore.

    There is one thing you all must realise, we have nothing to be ashamed about. We voted Yes, sing Flower of Scotland as loud as you can. Sing it all the time and into the ears of the no voters, let the words ring around their heads.

    It’s our fucking anthem and they aren’t taking that away from us as well.

    Their time will come.

    I think we can all see that.

    As for seats that are winnable….you might find that Davidsons seat is winnable, huge majority but that area is an interesting one.

  359. Wee Alex says:
    24 September, 2014 at 1:01 am

    Lamont, Baillie, Murphy stitched up like a kipper, British Labour Party has nowhere to go, Scotland shafted, personally am looking forward to mass resignations from Scottish Labour.


    Wee Alex – I agree with the rest of your post. However your last paragraph is definately wrong. Not one of those scum have the integrity to resign for anything. Their wages/expenses, careers, jobs for life (unless unseated) comes first, last and always.

  360. goulashman says:

    RIC an invigorating, continuing movement!

  361. john king says:

    Macart says
    “I was thinking more along the lines of cow shit in a bucket.”

    Boiling? 😉

  362. Wee Alex says:

    James Caithness says:
    24 September, 2014 at 10:07 am
    Wee Alex says:
    24 September, 2014 at 1:01 am

    Lamont, Baillie, Murphy stitched up like a kipper, British Labour Party has nowhere to go, Scotland shafted, personally am looking forward to mass resignations from Scottish Labour.


    Wee Alex – I agree with the rest of your post. However your last paragraph is definately wrong. Not one of those scum have the integrity to resign for anything. Their wages/expenses, careers, jobs for life (unless unseated) comes first, last and always.

    I agree with you James, I should have said the rank and file of the Labour membership, Lamont et al has no principles.

  363. Davy says:

    It is good to see everyone is still up for it.

    As my friend and old football manager used to say, “don’t get mad get even”, as I used to say back to him f##k that, “I’m going to stay mad and get even”. So use any quote you feel like.

    Lets not pick and chose which of the “red tory” seats we are targeting next year, lets go after the lot regardless, as none of them deserve anything less.

    But their is something we can do right now, all our independence parties and organsations can set out what we believe DevoMAX to be, and then see what the unionist’s actually offer. We need to also let everyone know what devoMAX should be in a clear and consise form so they know what they should expect, against what will be offered.

    Surely this is a simple procedure, which we as YES Scotland are well able to deliver.

    Someone needs to talk to us, and also listen, we are still here use us.

  364. handclapping says:

    @Wee Alex
    The SNP’ll not get Broon out of Kirkcaldy if they are forced to play nice by their HQ. If their allowed to tell the voters that they are electing a lazy, incompetent liar to put it mildly, and forgoing aspects such as bully, then Gordo is unseatable. But if they have to be nice and paint a glowing picture of the New Jerusalem, no chance, not in K+C not even with John King as the candidate 🙂

  365. Robert Louis says:

    As regards the GE2015, we need to bear in mind, that past results may be meaningless. Do not forget that the voters roll has grown considerably. The other point, is that as others have said, we now have a huge number of willing people who have joined the SNP – people who are pretty angry, and who want to channel that anger at Labour for the GE 2015.

    So, IMHO, it is once again squeaky bum time for the British Labour party in Scotland. It is sad to see the Labour party behave the way they have. I said right at the beginning of all this, that if Labour said they wanted devo max, and put it on the ballot paper, they would have won. This would have boosted Labour, they would never have had to work with the Tories (which has trashed them in Scotland), and Ed Miliband would be riding on a high right now.

    Instead because of their petty hatred of the SNP, they are haemorrhaging members as each day passes, and have now made the SNP stronger than it has ever been.

    Just as an aside, there is an excellent piece over on Newsnetscotland this morning (and I would urge everyone here to read it), in which they demonstrate that what the Scots were promised if they voted NO, was not devo nano, it was in fact devo max – everything bar defence and foreign affairs.

    So, in reality despite our sorrow, perhaps we now need to blast the narrative far and wide, that because we voted NO, we are getting devo max instead – it is after all what we have been promised. The reason for doing so, is that once Westminster fails to deliver, well, all bets are off again.

    Westminster has promised devo max, if we voted NO, so let’s in the short term keep pushing on that. In the last few days of the campaign they went far beyond the devo nano proposals we saw before. They have set a deadline for devo max themselves. So, in the short term let’s hold them to it. Only a few months to wait.

    (Of course we all know Westminster won’t do anything of the kind, but we really need to push what they promised, so that when they don’t deliver, we can point it out to the Scottish public just before the general election, and highlight the utter betrayal of the Scottish people by Labour – I think this is a good strategy).

  366. Calgacus says:

    @ron mclean not that angry! Obviously you are an agent provacateur. Hope you get banned

  367. Janet W says:

    @ Macart

    Like the Northumberland Farmer v Bank slurry tanking?

  368. shrodingers cat says:

    john king
    kirkcaldy and cowdenbeath 2010
    Gordon Brown Labour 29,559 64.5 +6.4
    Douglas Chapman SNP 6,550 14.3 -0.2g
    Turnout 45%
    SNP fail to get their voters to turn out
    Lab get their voters to turn out with an extra 5000 as brown is PM
    The coverage of these 2 holyrood constituencies are very similar to the Westminster constituencies
    Without brown as PM, a normal turnout for labour,
    Kirkcaldy 2011 HE
    SNP D. Torrance 12579 45.2 +11.9
    Labour M. livingstone 12397 44.6 -0.5
    Turnout 45%
    SNP get their voters to turn out

    Cowdenbeath 2011 HE
    Lab, Helen Eadie 11926 46.5 +3.4
    SNP I. Chisholm 10,679 41.6 +13.1

    Turnout 46%
    SNP get their voters to turn out
    Cowdenbeath 2014 HE by election
    Lab A Rowley 11,192 55.78 +9.2
    SNP N. McGarry 5,704 28.43 -13.17

    Turnout 38%

    SNP fail to get their voters to turn out

    Without brown as PM, if SNP turns up, it is neck and neck

    thats not taking into account labour’s current loss of support, SNP popularity, the complete absence of labour activists and the veritable army of Yes supporters and activists, support groups, campaign management which the SNP candidate can call on, I want Brown and/or his replacements heads on a stick. this seat is a target, speaking to the people at the count, this area of fife polled more yes than no

  369. Macart says:


    In the meantime the SG are going to be forced to implement Westminster policies and budget cuts. As I said above, I think its imperative that the SG keep people informed about what they are doing and why they have to do it. Its vitally important that at this time more than ever before that the SGs policies and actions are transparent and inclusive.

    If services are cut or taxes raised then people have to made aware of cause and effect.

  370. Molly says:

    Slightly o/ t but I had a phone call yesterday from a charity looking for financial support. After a lot of tooing and froing, the person at the end of the phone could not seem to understand , there is no point of having a miracle cure at the end of the journey, if you have poverty, poor housing and poor health at the start. After a long debate , we agreed to disagree .

    My next call was from a friend whose son has now moved to London . They are involved in setting up crowd funding for property. All going spiffingly well, money falling from the trees etc.

    Both these calls stuck a chord. Listen to Leslie Riddochs podcast. She talks about basically doing things for ourselves . Firstly as it removes the fear (local/ Scottish banks/ business won’t up sticks and threaten to leave ) as the BBC and papers promoted but also there needs to be an alternative to make people want to protect even cherish what they’ve got.

    The Labour Party over the last few decades has been complicit in the attitude of well it may be second best but it’s as good as your going to get- for that reason alone , we need to get them out.

  371. Dorothy Devine says:

    Ah! Macart choices eh?
    Bucket of ordure versus bucket of boiling oil?
    Too hard a choice methinks – how about both?

    You once rapped me over the knuckles for cursing the press , reminding me that there was a workforce which probably wasn’t as corrupt as its “leading lights” and who needed their jobs. I took that rebuke on board but now I jettison it .I hope they wither slowly and painfully .

    I really do want retribution..

  372. Macart says:


    Not familiar with that tale, but sounds right messy. 🙂

    And yes John, just for you, boiling slurry. 😀

  373. Ron Maclean says:


    Badly worded – meant British Government – how about we ban it instead?

  374. David Wardrope says:


    Maybe crossed wires there in reference to ron mclean. I think he might have been talking about the IS air strikes?

  375. Macart says:


    I had hopes early doors that the press would conduct the debate like a mature democracy should.

    Let them rot.

  376. john king says:

    Handclapping says
    “K+C not even with John King as the candidate ”

    Oh but Ambassador you are too kind. 🙂

  377. Janet W says:

    Can’t find video link but farmer was so pissed with bank he slurred the bank front along local street, must watch if you wish a cheer up, take it as your virtual bank slurry 🙂

  378. Ken500 says:

    Westminster is totally corrupt. Fraudsters, tax evaders, liars, illegal warmongers, child abusers. Protected by the corrupt MSM and Police. They are a Law unto themselves and have just lied, cheated and gerrymandering stuck their nose into another country’s affairs to steal their Independence. Scotland didn’t vote No. Cameron and Brown lied and duped people into voting No, which people will not forget.

    The vote was 60% YES until Cameron and Brown the ‘VOW’ made false promises and 25% of No changed their vote. Disregarded agreements and gerrymandered to change the result. Wait until voters realise they were duped. There will be hell to pay.

  379. Robert Louis says:

    Chalks at 10:06 am

    Very well said. It is OUR anthem, and if the likes of David Sole or Gavin hastings and other assorted unionista who prefer the union jack to their own country’s flag find it embarrassing, then the problem is of their own making.

    Flower of Scotland it is. For we shall rise and be a nation again.

  380. handclapping says:

    Do I see the opportunity for a new Scottish industry?
    Manufacturers of agricultural MacHinery and slurry boilers Est 2014

  381. schrodingers cat says:

    john king
    i tried posting the stats by my comments keep disappearing

    you are wrong

    look at the HE results for kirkcaldy and the results for cowdenbeath
    same 45% turnout, total about 22,000 each
    the by election in cowwdenbeath2014 , lab 11,000, snp 5000
    turnout 38%, the snp voters failed to show

    the brown 2010election, snp voters failed to show, if they had, they would have got 22,000
    the 29,000 as opposed to 22000 for lab was because brown was pm.

  382. Haggis Hunter says:

    @Ron McLean,

    Anyone who says we should go bombing is working for the Brit government, you should be binned from every posting on the Wings again.

  383. Ron Maclean says:

    @David Wardrope

    Thank you. That’s exactly what I meant. For the avoidance of doubt there are reports this morning that parliament is to be recalled to consider the possibility of air strikes in the Middle East. I think the referendum might have delayed this. I was not suggesting in any way that we should consider any violence of any kind.


    They make a desert and they call it peace.

  384. Ian Brotherhood says:

    ‘They make a sandwich. We call it a piece.’

  385. Macart says:


    Could be a runaway success. 😀

  386. HandandShrimp says:

    Things may have changed but I thought a number of the Labour old hands were contemplating retiring and a punt upstairs to the Lords. I certainly thought that Brown and Darling had hinted at stepping down.

  387. fred blogger says:

    they were out to destroy the SNP and bury for good the chances of there ever being a scotindyref again, their plan has spectacularly backfired.
    imo, they believed voter apathy would be the order of the day.
    they were totally taken back by the rapid increase and sheer scale of the yes grassroots movement.
    witness the panic when we were on course to win it.

  388. Haggis Hunter says:

    Sorry Ron,
    see what you mean now, yes, they will starting bombing the middle east

  389. Ian Brotherhood says:

    India is blazing a trail in interplanetary travel. We’re opening foodbanks.

  390. Midgehunter says:

    Labour has just spent zhe last three years playing best buddy to the tories, they’ve done most of the dirty work because the tories were no-go in Scotland. They’ve alienated most of their members.

    Brown “saved” Camerons bacon when he scared the sh**e out of the elder generation and the “Vow”.

    What did the tories do when the required result was in. They pi**ed on them.

    In the GE15 the tories can’t support SLAB in Scotland against the SNP, because otherwise Ed might just hang on in WM.
    They can’t support the SNP to help obliterate SLAB, otherwise they get the Scotish thorn in the side and boy are they angry.

    SLAB can’t expect any mercy from the YES Alliance, none from the tories and apart from the Record, the MSM and the other WM propaganda unit will tear them to pieces.

    Doesn’t that sound nice… 🙂

  391. Graeme Doig says:

    Nicola Sturgeon:

    “I am not Alex Salmond. His are big boots to fill, but if given the opportunity to lead I will wear my own shoes and they will have higher heals.”

    And i have no doubt she will use them to burst a few balloons (unionist politicians)

  392. Nana Smith says:

    If it true that the queen made the comments re the NO vote, then it is truly sickening. She is endorsing the msm & BT having frightened pensioners witless.

    What a vile monarchy & union.

  393. fred blogger says:

    miliband did have trigger notes.
    the bbc(spit) said so it must be true.
    he talked about saving the NHS and repealing the health and social care act, but failed to mention TTIP.

  394. Ron Maclean says:

    @haggis hunter

    My fault – a comment that was far too easy to misinterpret.

  395. handclapping says:

    @Nana Smith
    Um, all we have is the word of a PR Tory toff who just happens to need to rally his No voters and sow dissension in the ranks of Yes voters.

    Hook, line and sinker

  396. EphemeralDeception says:

    Looks like Nicola is not setting the bar at a great height in the devolution discussions… or she may just be taking it steady for now.

    However the huge new membership is a major force.

    It could for example petition at the conference for a general boycott of the BBC (except for Scot Gov announcements etc where they need to). There is no way the UK will fully devolve the BBC.

    We can lobby for certain red lines in the process so that the SNP leadership cannot get off lightly with agreement for minimal change.

    I am most disappointed with a lack of push for land reform which the SNP already has significant power over but this is not key overall. This is because of the English votes for English Laws/policies argument.

    The only way this can work is responsibility for all revenue and spending should be kept in Scotland. We can then pay into the UK for whatever set of shared services is kept. This is the only agreement that closes the arguments on fair distribution North and South.
    -It is also desperately simple and easy to administrate.
    -It is also transparent and can be audited.
    -It is transparent financially and transparent to people in Scotland which revenue we have and how much spending is done in Scotland and goes South.
    – It also ties into Labours distribution of resources. Except rather than pissing around with %ages that are hugely expensive to administrate, we collect it all and pay into the UK 1 time only.

    It matters less which decisions are kept at UK level for now as long as we can see how they and we are financed. Eg. Crown estate. If this is not devolved as long as we can see that X money was raised and Y money was sent to the UK.

    This for me is a red line and I would recommend the SNP membership pushes it.

  397. Valerie says:

    @Midgehunter, oh yes, Cameron crapped all over Labour within an hour of the result, by hitching the English devolution question to Scotland, knowing Miliband would have to try and answer, and he is just dancing around it. The sad bit is that a lot of the No voters don’t care about that. When I mentioned the Vow was looking highly unlikely, a No voter just said to me, these things take time. Strictly is back on too.

  398. schrodingers cat says:

    alan grogan
    Throughout my campaigning life which began at 8 years old leafleting for Labour
    unsuccessfully against Major’s Tory Government, through to the last 2 and a half
    years as Co-Convenor of Labour for Independence. I have written many political
    posts. This is unquestionably the toughest statement that I have had to write.

    I have often told this story of how I was brought up in a Labour family. My great
    grandfather was a strong working class Labour member in Dundee. My grandmother would
    tell me about the real Labour Party we had after the war. One who protected the
    workers, created the welfare state and the NHS. Looked after the sick, the old and
    the poor. Both my parents campaigned for the Labour Party, up until recently my
    mother still did. If red wasn’t the colour of blood I would have bled it anyway.

    I began Labour for Independence because of the refusal of the party to give it’s
    membership the vote on where we stood regarding independence. In truth it was much
    more than that. Labour had long lost it’s way. It took me a while to realise,
    perhaps clinging to blind hope more than anything, hoping we could return to the
    days my grandmother talked about.

    This campaign convinced me that we had a real opportunity to see a return to a real
    Labour Party in Scotland. Even after the polls had closed I spoke to a great many
    comrades at the count who yearn for change, even those voting no are aware of it.
    Yet the truth is the no vote will be seen as an endorsement of the Scottish Labour
    Leadership and how they defer to their masters at Westminster. Promoting right wing
    policies which have no place in the party of Bevan, Smith, Maxton and Hardie.

    I’m sure many of you will have been aware of the constant slurs and abuse Labour for
    Independence have endured by our own party members. Yet this is not what has led me
    to this statement. It has been the constant that Labour has refused to acknowledge
    their roots or the very reason for their creation.

    In this campaign we have had Labour leaders call us a ‘something for nothing
    society’ that we are not ‘genetically programmed to make our own decisions.’ We have
    seen our so called comrades high five Tories at counts. Some, like Jim Murphy
    hugging Tories in Clydebank of all places. Already we are seeing a backtrack on more
    powers and now a real terms cut in child benefit. But for me personally the final
    straw was seeing our Scottish leader Johann Lamont outside Asdas smiling for a
    picture because they had announced to raise prices in an independent Scotland. What
    a vile act for someone claiming to be Labour, let alone the leader of the party.
    Regardless of her voting preference the fact she should take enjoyment out of rising
    prices that will effect the poorest and the working class the hardest is

    It has taken me close to a week of soul searching, but I have come to the conclusion
    that it is no longer possible to save the soul of the Labour Party. The great
    history and names within the party will live on, but they will live on with those
    who hold true their ideals and beliefs. Not by having a red membership card.

    Therefore it is with deep regret that I resign my membership of the British Labour
    Party. They no longer represent me or the million or so Labour supporters in
    Scotland, nor a great many in other parts of the UK. They no longer represent their
    own history.

    In light of my resignation I will also be stepping down as Co-Convenor of Labour for
    Independence and my place on the Executive Committee. I will accept a place at the
    future planning meeting on October 4th as a delegate of Angus. Where I will look
    forward to hearing real Labour comrades put forward what if any future Labour for
    Independence may have.

    I would like to thank everyone who supported me throughout my time within the party
    and as Co-Convenor of LFI. I look forward to what the future brings.

    Allan Grogan

  399. Jim IVY Morris says:

    The SNP have done a terrific job governing Scotland these last 8 years, but the urgent need is to organise before the Westminster elections in May 2015. A Saltire coalition including all independence parties should be possible to honour their work for the referendum (RIP), with absolute agreement to field only one anti-unionist candidate in each Labour or LibDem/Tory constituency. Sharing the jobs around and the energy should make it possible to return 59 pro-Scotland seats and totally change the taste of London Rule.

  400. Nana Smith says:

    Neighbour just said to me.

    “I don’t think the snp went for the jugular each time BT told a lie”

    She then asked me did I think the bbc, stv, etc edited out if they did slam the lies. Who knows.

    But whatever happens next the lies have to be countered and not in a nicey nicey way.

    Much as I like Nicola I do wonder if she is the right person for the job, is she too nice.

  401. AuldA says:

    @John King :
    @Bugger (the Panda) :

    get yourselves AZERTY keyboards. àéèçûöô. That’s a great way to slickly write both in French and in English! 🙂

  402. Calgacus says:

    @Ron Mclean, ok Ron sorry I picked you up wrong there. Whilst I am boiling mad about the referendum cheating that went on, I would bever condone violence in any form

  403. Midgehunter says:

    @ Macart

    I think John K was being his usual shy self.

    What he meant was, if you bring the bückets of sh** , he’ll bring loads and loads of really hot boiling oil and while he’s at it, he still has kilos of feathers from the the last voodoo meeting they had the other night.

    Did he mention that he’s still got some wooden stakes and garlic lying around.

    It was part of his “Starter-Pack”. 😉

  404. Silverytay says:

    A couple of points about next years general election .
    1 The chances of the unionist parties putting up a united front against the S.N.P are almost nil .
    The trick is , will we hold our nerve and put up a united front against them .

    2 Where will the unionist foot soldiers come from , if even a fraction of the people who have joined pro independence parties are politically active it will reduce the unionists ability to put boots on the ground and they certainly wont be able to bus them up from down South as they are going to be fighting like rats in a sack down there .

  405. Helena Brown says:

    Handclapping with reference to getting Gordon Brown out of Kirkcaldy, well we need to resort to their tactics. No more Mr and Mrs Nice Person, we need to tell the people how things are, as they are going to be and that they are a bunch of cretins to keep electing someone who cared not a jot about them for three and a half years. Someone who only came back to save his bacon and not theirs.
    I don’t hold my breath but it is something which really needs to be tried.

  406. Fiona says:

    Better late than never, I suppose

  407. Ron Maclean says:


    Thanks for that but it was a badly written comment and it was my fault entirely.

  408. ronnie anderson says:


  409. ilyana says:

    @ Albalha this is I think a helpful line of discussion.

    Edinburgh North and Leith

    UK Parliament 2010

    SNP 9.6% on turnout of 68.4%

    Scottish Parliament 2011

    SNP 39.7 on turnout of 52.9%

    Big factor here is possibly the choice of candidates.

    Two types of voting behavior in the two types of election.

    Obviously what I want to know is can we swing it if we mobilise the non vote etc?

    Are socio-demographic comparisons useful to us at the moment?

    How can we get a breakdown of indyref votes by constituency?

    Apologies if any of this has been asked before.

  410. Capella says:

    How many trial runs are you prepared to sit through? I’ve been through the 1979, 1997 and the 2014. Incredibly, the same tactic “vote NO and we’ll give you a better deal” plus corporations threatening death and destruction was used in 1979 and 2014.
    The reason we are able to have referendums, and the 1997 one was successful, is because it is conditional on membership of the EU. If Tony Blair hadn’t delivered this minimal sop of the Scottish Parliament, UK would not be in the EU. It is not because they are kind people wishing to please us. It is because British and multi-national corporations want access to the huge market of the EU.

  411. Robert Peffers says:

    @Wee Alex says: 24 September, 2014 at 1:01 am:

    “Has nobody noticed how Cameron has stitched up David (sorry Ed) Milliband and his Labour cohorts in Scotlandshire.”

    Wee Alex, May I suggest you are looking at the wood and seeing what is before you as a forest. You are only seeing a wall of trees and each tree represents an individual problem. You thus see a forest of problems. I view this in a different manner. I see that forest of problems as the result of one original problem that produced the seeds for all those other problems you see before you

    So first identify the problem producing the seeds and kill that off. The rest will take care of itself. The problem is that what began as a bipartite Union of Kingdoms has been made into a union of four countries by the English dominated Westminster Establishment with the added problem of some of the Scottish members of the former bipartite union enthusiastically grasping the new setup with both hands for their own individual benefit.

    When Westminster decided to go for devolution the only way it could work anything like properly was for the former bipartite United Kingdom to split up into more or less equal units. However, none of the countries wanted to stop being unified countries so United Kingdom Regonalisation was never going to get passed. The next idea was to accept that no UK country would give up being a whole country and the English regions would remain as a single England. So they devolved powers to only three of the four countries. To work as the Westminster Establishment always works, (divide and conquer), they did not devolve powers equally and thus prevented the three countries working together against the Westminster Establishment.

    The flaw in their system was that they did not give all four countries a devolved parliament and thus Westminster, while officially remaining legally the bipartite United Kingdom parliament, actually became the de facto parliament of the country of England. Thus every Elected English Member became an unelected member of the de facto parliament of the country of England.

    What we have now is the de facto parliament of the country of England devolving the powers of the country of England to three other subservient devolved administrations and Scotland, although mostly not really aware of why they are doing so, are clamouring for independence as a country but should be doing so as the Kingdom that signed the now thoroughly broken Treaty of Union.

    There can be no settled United Kingdom as Long as Westminster remains the de facto parliament of the country of England and that is why Cameron is attempting to debar Scottish Members from what is still officially a United Kingdom Parliament from voting on what Westminster claims are English country only matters.

    If Cameron gets away with that then the game is up for Scotland as Westminster will really become what David Mundell said it already was, “The Treaty of Union extinguished the Kingdom of Scotland and renamed the Kingdom of England as The United Kingdom”.

  412. ronnie anderson says:

    @ My previous comment is in reply to Ron Macleans 9.35 comment. Clowns we dont need on this site.

    SOS.lads n lasses for going over board with the use of sweary wording, any referances to acts of violence should be jumped on hard.WE on this site have worked to hard in the past & will no doupt work as hard again. We should’nt suffer IDIOTS with brains not engadged.

  413. Dave McEwan Hill says:

    So happy to have known you Allan and I’m sure those sentiments are echoed by all who met you at our meeting in Dunoon.

    The Labour Party in Scotland may have imagined they have just won. In fact they have just destroyed themselves by winning for the Tories.
    “No great mischief if they fall”. That must be the joyous attitude of the Westminster establishment to Labour in Scotland.

    I am far from alone in puzzling about the disparity in the votes cast for either side and what I can feel of the mood in the country.
    The establishment acted as if they knew they had won long before they could have been sure of it

  414. john king says:

    Where were you yesterday Ronnie, I was outside the parly about 5 to 12 but I didnt see you, did you go?

  415. Calgacus says:

    I agree with the comments that the Yes campaign were too nicey nicey. Lies must be countered immediately and robustly. I realise this is is difficult when all of the media are against you, however we had the chance in debates and interviews to go for the jugular and it didn’t happen often enough.

  416. Macca73 says:

    We have to play them at thier own game. Labour and the MSM all turned this against one man. Alex Salmond. Anything you do from here on out has to be an attack on Milliband. Even the most hardend labour voter knows this man does not look like a leader but intertwind with that you then make deliberte lies from people like Brown and focus on making people Angry about sending a message. I would personally pefer a note through every door with no logo on it and no way of knowing that it’s based around a political party. That way they are free to make minds without thinking about agendas at this stage .. it’s just planting a seed.

  417. Albalha says:


    Re breakdown per area, it seems that local Yes groups/RIC etc have those, don’t think anyone has pulled them together yet, could be wrong. For example RIC Dundee posted results for the areas of Dundee they were canvassing.

    On Edinburgh North and Leith, if a ‘Yes alliance’, could be agreed, then I think in that seat a Green could do well, based on what happened during the referendum campaign.

    Now clearly there are issues of differing policies but given the small number of MPs then don’t see that as too much of a problem, something people could get used to.

    Of course the ‘Yes Alliance’, itself would need some shared position on what next for Scotland were they to be elected.

  418. AJ says:

    @Allan Grogan

    Your story sounds exactly like my Fathers.

    In order to support the Labour Party with equal conviction today as you would have 20/30 years ago you would need to have had a monumental change in outlook.

    They say you get more Conservative as you get older. If this is true then the Labour party is about to die.

    Scroll down for a look at Labours ‘progress’

  419. john king says:

    AuldA says
    “get yourselves AZERTY keyboards. àéèçûöô. That’s a great way to slickly write both in French and in English! ”

    Not from around these here parts are ya pilgrim?
    Have you seen the mess I can make with a QUERTY keyboard? 🙂

    As far as BtP goes French is his second language he doesnt really need any help. 😉

  420. Nana Smith says:

    SNP membership soars as Labour could ‘die out’

    Wed, 24/09/2014 – 12:01

    As SNP membership soars to more than 57,000, former First Minister Henry McLeish has warned that the Labour Party is in danger of dying out in Scotland.

    Henry McLeish has today said that traditional Labour supporters in “solid areas of the old Red Clydeside and in Dundee” have been energised by the referendum debate and are moving towards the SNP. Mr McLeish also called for the Labour Party in Scotland to have full autonomy from the party at UK level.

    This criticism from a senior Labour figure only adds to the pressure on Johann Lamont – after the whispering campaign against her leadership continues apace at the Labour Conference in Manchester.

    In stark contrast to the Labour party’s fortunes, in recent days the SNP membership has grown by more than 32,000 to stand at more than 57,000 – making the SNP the third largest party in the UK

    This follows a Survation poll showing support for the SNP standing at 49 per cent – up on even the 2011 landslide levels – while support for Labour languishes at 33 per cent.

    Commenting, SNP Business Convener Derek Mackay MSP said:

    “The extraordinary influx of new members joining the SNP shows no signs of slowing down – with membership now having more than doubled, standing at over 57,000.

    “What a contrast with the No campaign parties in the last few days – we have overtaken the Lib Dems at UK level and Labour are in complete disarray in Scotland.

    “As the whispering campaign against Johann Lamont continues apace at Labour conference– the warning from Henry McLeish that Labour is in danger of dying out is yet another blow to her floundering leadership.

    “But Henry McLeish is absolutely right – Labour’s position in Scotland is growing more precarious by the day as more and more people in traditional Labour heartlands switch to the SNP.

    “Labour voters simply won’t forget Johann Lamont’s alliance with the Tories in the No campaign – which is exactly why the SNP is now sitting at 49 per cent in the polls.

    “It is clearly the SNP that the people of Scotland trust to stand up for Scotland’s interests – and to hold the Westminster establishment to account on their vow of substantial more powers for Scotland. This new democratic movement in Scotland won’t accept the same old politics as usual from Westminster.”

  421. Nana Smith says:

    There’s good post on the snp website. Apparently McLeish is warning that labour could ‘die out’

    Well here’s hoping.

    Sorry can’t link for some reason.

  422. Nana Smith says:

    Re above post.

    Should have said. Labour could die out in Scotland.

  423. ronnie anderson says:

    @ John King 11.43 I was there John noised up the (wee foldy bike man David Torrance, & my cars parked up in Leith Walk still GGGGRRRRR broken down AGAIN.

  424. Greannach says:

    Scottish MPs who voted for a cap on benefits spending and the expenses they claimed in 2012-13 (excluding Constituency Office spend) in addition to their salary

    MP > Constituency > % of local children in poverty > MP Expenses
    Willie Bain Glasgow NE 43% £41,003
    Anas Sarwar Glasgow Central 37% £39,998
    Margaret Curran Glasgow E 35% £37,224
    John Robertson Glasgow NW 32% £29,635
    Ian Davidson Glasgow SW 31% £38,768
    Ann McKechin Glasgow N 29% £35,111
    Lindsay Roy Glenrothes 27% £36,220
    Tom Harris Glasgow S 26% £34,664
    Gemma Doyle W Dunbartonshire 25% £25,027
    Pamela Nash Airdrie & Shotts 24% £33,260
    Sheila Gilmore Edinburgh E 24% £23,087
    Iain McKenzie Inverclyde 24% £40,218
    Frank Roy Motherwell & Wishaw 24% £39,603
    Frank Doran Aberdeen N 23% £34,362
    Sandra Osborne Ayr,Carrick,Cumnock 22% £28,098
    Mark Lazarowicz Edinburgh N & Leith 22% £11,333
    Cathy Jamieson Kilmarnock & Loudoun 22% £30,856
    D’las Alexander Paisley & Renfrew S 21% £12,371
    Tom Greatrex Ru’glen & Hamilton W 21% £54,858
    Tom Clarke Coatbridge etc 20% £30,412
    John Thurso Caithness etc. 19% £63,121
    A Darling Edinburgh SW 19% £30,933
    Jimmy Hood Lanark & Hamilton E 19% £19,394
    Gregg McClymont Cumbernauld, etc 18% £18,884
    Graeme Morrice Livingston 18% £33,287
    David Hamilton Midlothian 18% £37,297
    Russell Brown Dumfries & Galloway 17% £31,393
    Thomas Docherty Dunfermline & W Fife 16% £39,852
    Gordon Banks Ochil & S Perthshire 16% £43,872
    Ian Murray Edinburgh S 15% £32,434
    Mike Crockart Edinburgh W 15% £44,520
    Alan Reid Argyll & Bute 14% £45,206
    Michael Moore Berwickshire etc 14% £34,454
    Anne McGuire Stirling 14% £33,911
    Danny Alexander Inverness, Nairn… 13% £23,749
    Menz Campbell N E Fife 12% £30,367
    Charles Kennedy Ross, Skye, Lochaber 12% £43,200
    Anne Begg Aberdeen S 11% £35,821
    Jim Murphy E Renfrewshire 10% £40,444
    Robert Smith W Aberdeenshire & Kinc. 6% £39,204

  425. Greannach says:

    Sorry that’s so badly formatted

  426. Nana Smith says:


    I see John Thurso is a right trougher, didn’t really expect anything less from him.

  427. cynical lowlander says:

    No problem Greannach. I’ll format it and produce it as a .pdf.

  428. Jim IVY Morris says:

    Re: Helen Brown and the Gordon Brown comment. My money is own Brown, Darling and should have been Cameron moved up to the House of Lords in the New Year’s Honours List, leaving no one in the lower house to defend more powers to. Scottish Parliament, and should have been opening the way for Boris Johnson to be next Tory Leader. The doubt is caused by Cameron’s gaffe to Bloomberg about the Queen.
    Ps It only took Obama about 3 hours after the result to order the bombing of Syria, first reports only 14% civilian casualties. rUK would not have been a big enough ally. To back him up!

  429. bald eagle says:

    did anyone listen to the full report about cameron talking about the queen to that american

    cameron was talking about taking the pollsters to court for giving him ulcers they had a laugh and then the american said thats why your paid big bucks if it can be found anywhere have a listen very strange remark dont you think?

  430. AuldA says:

    @John King:
    To which French is BtP acquainted the most ? 😉

    I will ask the SNP to add to its platform: 1. Transition to AZERTY keyboards; 2. Scotland’s cars should drive on the right, like other European countries. Driving on the left is too British.

  431. Charles Edward says:

    Well said Allan Grogan.

    To serve as a public servant is an honour.
    To see how this position is denigrated by the Labour ( and the Conservative )party is beyond words.
    We need people in these positions to work for the people, not themselves.
    I have joined SNP. I think Nicola will be a strong leader.
    I’m not sure but I believe that one is permitted to be a member of two parties.
    If I am correct here those who believe they are already positioned might have the option to support the SNP also.

  432. Greannach says:

    Cynical Lowlander – Thanks. I actually have it in pdf format, but being such a dodo on computers, didn’t know how to convert!

  433. Bugger (the Panda) says:

    @ AuldA

    I have a Mac and French, German and various Scandinavian accents aâae easy.

    Just hold down the key required and the variations come up in a secondary floating box, which can then be chosen.



  434. Bugger (the Panda) says:


    La Police Quebecoise de la Langue?

  435. ilyana says:


    Thanks that’s useful, will have some chats about this and a dig around in the data.

  436. Jim IVY Morris says:

    Suggestion for a new national anthem (The tune’s good as well)
    Everybody’s talkin’ something very shockin’ just to 
    Keep on blockin’ what they’re feelin’ inside but 
    Listen to me brother, you just keep on walkin’ ’cause 
    You and me and sister ain’t got nothin’ to hide. 
    Scatman, fat man, black and white and brown man 
    Tell me ’bout the colour of your soul. 
    If part of your solution isn’t ending the pollution 
    Then I don’t want to hear your stories being told. 
    I want to welcome you to Scatman’s world 

    (Scatting by Scatman John) 

    I’m calling out from Scatland 
    I’m calling out from Scatman’s world. 
    If you wanna break free you better listen to me. 
    You got to learn how to see in your fantasy. 

    Everybody’s born to compete as he chooses 
    But how can someone win if winning means that someone loses. 
    I sit and see and wonder what it’s like to be in touch. 
    No wonder all my brothers and my sisters need a crutch. 
    I want to be a human being not a human doing. 
    I couldn’t keep that pace up if I tried. 
    The source of my intention really isn’t crime prevention. 
    My intention is prevention of the lie (yeah) 
    Welcome to the Scatman’s world 
    Of course with the authors’ permission Scatman becomes Scotsman and Scatland: Scotland

  437. Fred says:

    Greannach, anent the MP’s expenses for 2012-2013.
    Of course Willie Bain’s claim for £43,000 is the highest, the weans in Springburn have the greatest poverty rate at 41%. Stands to reason really, fairly obvious in fact.
    Thanks for pointing up Willie’s claim on their behalf, the guy’s all heart!

  438. Chic McGregor says:

    Thought it was Thurso’s claims were highest followed by Greaterix(sp?).

    Willie’s well up the pecking order though.

  439. Chic McGregor says:

    Jings just noticed the list further up. Should have been Greatrex.

    Think I spelled it like the character in Asterix. Probably a Freudian – i.e. he would need some Gaul to make those claims. 🙂

  440. Balaaargh says:

    For crying out loud, some of the language on this thread is just ridiculous!

    If you didn’t already know, just type ‘charmap’ into the search box when you click on the Start button in Windows 7 (or just search for it in whatever version of Windows you have) and you can find all the accented letters you could ever need.

    You can even find a ?. 🙂

  441. Fred says:

    I must apologise on Willie’s behalf, he’s not the greediest bastard after all, the weans are still dead poor though. Shockin Willie intit?

  442. Bob. says:

    “Cameron to grant more fiscal powers to Scotland under devolution.”

  443. Will Podmore says:

    A majority, 52 per cent, of 16-24-year-olds voted against division. So the rather unpleasant hopes that No voters will all die off might take rather a long time to come to fruition.

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