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Wings Over Scotland


We told you so #2

Posted on September 23, 2014 by

Even we’re surprised how fast these are coming true.

image

Stay tuned for more. They’re on the way.

(Here are some of the times we told you so.)

Nick Clegg Signs Another Pledge

Diluting the poisoned chalice

How Scotland will be robbed

Joining the dots

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    954 to “We told you so #2”

    1. Ramona says:

      Give it with one hand and take away with the other.

    2. Gary M says:

      I feel bad for the people who fell for it, and how stupid they must be feeling now, but more than that, I feel sorry for our nation, as it suffers from their poor decision.

    3. Wee Jonny says:

      But Jackie Burd telt us we’d be arite. Just spoke to a customer who was the only one in her office (12) to vote Yes. The rest were going on the vow and saying Alecsammin canny be trusted. Head. Wall. Bang.

    4. Kevin says:

      We will do what we are told, that’s. what the NO’s wanted , now they will reap the shit they’ve sown

    5. Ian Brotherhood says:

      So, I suppose we can all have a wee rest and let the 55% kick up fuck about this, right? (Any of them need a loan of a wallpaper table?)

    6. Graham says:

      No promise no union. Million votes for snp coming soon

    7. Martin says:

      I’m rather grudgingly impressed with their boldness. 10h for vow to collapse, 48h for nhs safety to disappear, 4d for this…I expect an announcement of the gigantic oil find in Clair field by Thursday.

    8. Fiona says:

      file:///C:/Users/user/Downloads/sn04033.pdf

      Curious that there are significant differences between the english regions which don’t seem to be mentioned, though they are not due to the barnett formula which doesn’t apply to them.

      Curious, also that much that is spent in London is not counted because it is said to be for the benefit of the UK as a whole.

      Curious that even without that adjustment London go the same per capita public spending as Scotland in 2009 and about the same in 2010. Does anybody believe that spending in London fell relative to Scotland in the Olympic year of 2012?

      Curious that the levels of unemployment are not used to adjust the outturn figures

      Curious that the fact that some things, like water, are included in public expenditure in Scotland, but not in England, but the figures are not adjusted for that

    9. Drew says:

      What really needs to occur to allow a unilateral declaration of independence, seriously,something that can’t be challenged.

    10. manandboy says:

      If you do nothing else today,

      join the SNP or the Greens

      as a member of the Independence Alliance.
      .

      Let’s make a million member Independence Alliance

      to send ONLY Independence MP’s to Westminster in May 2015

      .
      To overcome the might of the British Establishment/State

      we’re going to need something a little bigger

      than the 45% that we are now.

      .
      http://www.snp.org/join

      http://www.scottishgreens.org.uk/

    11. Graham says:

      Rally outside holyrood during office hours let’s make life impossible for them like they have for us even outside their homes. Should have been BLT campaign , better lying together campaign .

    12. BigSteveChisholm says:

      We need to kill the subsidy myth for good.

      They always talk about Scotland’s extra +£1600. They never talk about taxation going in the opposite direction.

      When the cash flows south, it’s ‘pooling and sharing’. When it returns, it’s a subsidy.

    13. Bugger (the Panda) says:

      Can we get 5 million flyers produced and handed out across Scotland with each group of denials?

      Bus stops, trains, cafés, newstands.

      Crowdfund

    14. Bugger (the Panda) says:

      My niece joined the SNP this morning and is going to Holyrood.

      I managed to get her to the March on the Mound last year although she arrived late with her brood as they had treated it as a day out.

      I stayed with her during the First Counting House Friday and worked on her neighbour who is a college lecturer and now a Union rep because her job was at risk.

      Converted my niece and how!

      The Union rep sees he future as a Labour time server. Little does she know how short the sell-by date is.

    15. mogabee says:

      I’m not beaten nor broken. I and many thousands are rallying and readying for the next stage, whatever that may be.

      They think It’s all over…..It is now!

    16. Bugger (the Panda) says:

      From SNP website

      Peter Murrell

      Big shout out and huge welcome to our 21,464 new @theSNP members.

      Please bear with our struggling servers, join now:

      Time stamp about 9am today

    17. Kevin Evans says:

      Am pretty certain if ya show this to a no voter they’ll say “well it’s all snp and Alex salmonds fault” much like the unionist riots were his fault too. I guess some folk don’t see the woods for the trees.

    18. Tackety Beets says:

      Its an unusual situation where the “leading” party in an election looses . The leader resigns and it is followed by 1000’s joining their party within a few days .
      I understand the SNP is now verging on being the 3rd largest supported ,by membership , Political Party in the UK ?
      This too must have an impact on WM .
      I agree with Ian Brotherhood . I worry that the 55% are large sectors of educated middle class types , like Lawyers, architects etc , public service etc . They’re life is generally remote from poverty , food banks etc .
      Note ; I am well aware that YES support is from ALL throughout society .
      We need to concentrate in understanding WHY those who voted NO did so .
      AS I previously stated , my impression from NOs is that currency needed to be in place .
      I also understand “people” make a decision ,then search for the evidence to back it up , so maybe we may never understand a NO decision .
      As regards I told you so , I would caution bending the ears of your social Nos . Just casually mention what you have read without targeting them . We need to endear ourselves to them so we can discuss ” FACTS ” in round 2 , which hopefully will not be too far ahead .
      No Powers , No deal !

    19. Ken500 says:

      GE coming soon vote the Tory/Lab/Lib Unionists out. Protect Scotland from lying Unionists, and this will not happen.

    20. Macca73 says:

      The people I feel most sorry for are the youth in Scotland starting out. The older heads who voted NO for themselves can rot as far as I’m concerned. They have been lied to before and bought it allowing them to do it again for the sake of themselves and nobody else is an absolute travisty.
      The young at least are learning that these people can NEVER be trusted.

    21. Achnababan says:

      I don’t understand why the SNP leadership have been so lack lustre in terms of their opposition to Barnett funding reforms and the proposed new tax powers.

      The proposal to reduce funding via the Barnett formula and to make up the short fall via higher income tax levied by the Scottish Parliament would be a disaster for the SNP and Independence more generally. We would get the blame for putting up taxes not Westminster.

      The SNP need to push much harder for control over our own revenues and ruthlessly attack the ‘more powers’ ploy of the Unionists parties as a trap for Scotland.

      Swinney et al need to get a grip of this and strangle it. He and many in the SNP leadership cabal are far too wishy-washy. I think we need someone who can communicate in direct simple English to deliver hard hitting messages to ordinary people in 1 sentence.

      Salmond despite his strategic genius, was in my view very guilty of over-articulating his arguments, in the mistaken assumption he always talking to other clever politicos.

      People want simple messages powerfully spoken. Extra tax – no thanks, Our revenues – Yes please

    22. Faltdubh says:

      I have no beef with the Tories. We all know exactly what they stand for.

      We all knew this would happen.

      What happens next?

      Let me guess – there will be a further discussion, followed by more talks with none of the 3 Unionist and SNP agreeing on these “more powers”. It will batter on for weeks, months.

      SNP fire in with a ‘Yes Alliance’ in 2015 with the promise of (if they win most seats) on devolution max.

      We need land reform, ASAP. Riddoch talks so much sense about this.

      We live in interesting times.

    23. Keithhaggis says:

      Martin, Clair field was paraded in all it’s monstrous glory day after the ref on….the BBC.

    24. Wilma says:

      I have this morning joined the SNP party and lets go forward and get all the nominees we require for each town and city and take labour out of existence here comes the revolution.

    25. Faltdubh says:

      I feel for the bairns too. I am 31 years old, but I am so inspired by what happened on Thursday.

      People I know who have never voted in years are now joining political movements, volunteering at Food banks.

      All those 16-18 year olds must be given the vote!

      Look at the numbers from Ashcroft’s polls. Take away the 65+ age group, it was roughly 55% for Indy.

      It’s a ticking time bomb, folks.

      Scotland will flourish!

    26. toshtastic says:

      In fairness – that is expected. If we raise £xb via SRIT etc, then that £xb comes off our block grant

      The issue is ensuring that its ONLY £xb that comes off and not more

    27. Shuggy says:

      I posted this in another section but maybe worth posting here in light of developments:

      My thoughts on the demographics of the No voters:

      A fairly significant proportion of No voters are not elderly or ‘working class’ but ‘middle class’ – homeowners in white collar, salaried positions – I’d guess they’re what you’d call Thatcher’s children. That’s the dream they were sold and they’re living it – or at least aspiring to it.

      During the campaign I was struck by the constant references to the ‘working class’. Why? Is independence not for everyone?

      To tell them that independence would make social equality a reality, by protecting and even enhancing the welfare state, would send one very clear message to them – we’re going to get clobbered for tax to pay for it. Remember that they’ve also been sold the slogan of the ‘undeserving poor’. If they’re voting New Labour it’s because they think that’s the party that gives them Tory values but with just a hint of social conscience thrown in.

      Now whether you are care about their mindset or not, you have to address it. You have to engage these No voters.

      So which of the arguments for Yes were targeted particularly at those people?

      For example, where was the Fracking issue in the campaign? A great swathe of the Central Belt of Scotland is being earmarked for fracking. Now, this is a disaster environmentally but also, for those middle class homeowners who don’t have the environmental argument at the top of their agenda, there’s the distinct possibility that even the threat of this could cut property values by up to 80%. The reality could mean compulsory purchase orders and leave land unfit to rebuild on.

      Don’t you think that if they have that information coupled with a clear, robust and genuine anti-fracking policy commitment (whether SNP, Green or both), then they would have a REASON to cast their votes in that direction, surely.

      It would also give more traction to the case for the oil (and, by association, for the removal of Trident to enable extraction) as well as the case for renewable alternatives.

      Did anyone canvass them with this info? Any leaflets, perhaps? I suspect not.

      For the next campaign, include this group of No/Labour voters and take the arguments to them.

    28. Nana Smith says:

      According to Ed Balls-up labour intend to raise the retirement age and end winter fuel allowance

      https://twitter.com/DM_75/status/514179436804325377/photo/1

    29. Woody says:

      The problem Scotland faces now is the promise of new powers give us no further control over fairly distrubuting our revenue income into the projects that we would like to.

      Giving scots more tax raising powers on only parts of our revenue income leaves us with having to increase taxes to cover the costs of westminster spending cuts to keep our Health and welfare system how we would like regardless of our surlpus income.

      In example:

      Scotland recieves 26 billion from westminster to run our systems. If westminster Cuts health, education and welfare spending in england the proportionate amount, around 10% of the cuts put in force in england will come out of the scottish budget.

      This will leave large funding gaps in the scottish budget that will have to be filled with raising taxes above english levels or accepting cuts in our social systems.

      However as we cannot save this money from the defence budget (not devolved) nor can we use our oil revenues (also not devolved) or indeed share some of the costs across the breadth of the scottish tax system (for instance corporate tax NOT devolved) Ordinary Scots will end up paying twice for their health and education systems.

      What was completely ignored in the entire debate on constitutional reform was how the UK is funded at the moment. The UK is funded as a 13 region state. Northern Irland, Wales, and scotland are three of these states plus ten English states including London and the south east.

      The newspapers and tory MPs all make big news that Scotland recieves more per head than England as a whole. This is true but per region we are only third best funded in the UK behind London and northern Ireland. However we are the second largest contributor to the treasury (without oil revenues)out of the 13 regions. If you want a truely fair form of UK funding then each of the 13 regions should have complete control over their own revenues and Contribute an agreed percentage of these revenues to the maintainence of a joint defence and foreign policy department, managed by the heads of each region. Much like EU policy decisions where the Head of each state can vote on EU policy, then the heads of each region can vote on UK policy with regards to Defence and Foreign Policy.

      Problem is the Bankers, powerbrokers, big buisness and their lobbyists dont want to see power devolved, it makes it much harder to find the politician to bribe.

    30. paul gerard mccormack says:

      Manandboy spot on. Join, Join, Join. I did. I also pray that north Britain gets done over transparently and obviously in this ‘vow’ bollocks. I hope they do their best to stitch it up well and truly. This surely can only motivate us to gain our independence by other means. Feck another referendum – it’s rotten to the core. Our hope just now lies with the mechanism of the SNP. I don’t give a fuck what they call themselves. I am not voting for aesthetics or essay writers, I am voting and working for independence, the politicking can begin afterwards.

    31. hetty says:

      Not surprised at all, I knew this would happen. Barnett to go by xmas next, or as soon as feasible. Just feel very worried for the people this will, affect, the poor, sick and disabled. I wonder if the charity for which I am on the board, some of whom expressed the fear factor to others and accused me of politicising a meeting when I challenged them, will survive to this time next year, I doubt it, and they support people with learning disabilities.

    32. Faltdubh says:

      Pat Kane right now on GMS, 0840 if you can go on i player talking about funding an alternative media.

      He’s spot on. We can all fund this.

      There are 1.6 million of us!

    33. Davy says:

      My wife joined the SNP yesterday, after a two day wait to get registered.

      Lets de-list the Scottish unionist MP’s from westminster in 2015 exspecially the red tories, lets clean up Scotland.

    34. goulashman says:

      Fight the Unionists for those who cannot – their ultimate victims

    35. Carol Jardine says:

      TacketyBeets
      Yesterday I spoke to a friend of many years. Same age group as me (over 60. A ‘No’voter). She does not ‘do’ the internet. Relying on the BBC and the odd newspaper for her information, she hadn’t heard of TTIP and other stuff. Interestingly, in her opinion, the YES campaign hadn’t made enough of these issues. We agreed that there are those that winnae listen to anything that doesn’t fit in with their pre-conceived ideas.
      Does this help answer your query?

    36. Achnababan says:

      On the subject of communication – I feel the SNP leadership are also guilty of talking ‘to’ journalists rather than talking ‘through’ journalists.

      In other words, be less concerned about answering the questions as framed by the (biased) journalist but keep getting your message out – repetition may be boring but it works – A. Darling did so on the currency issue and hey look what happened!

    37. Shuggy says:

      I posted this in another section but thought it might be worth re-posting here, given recent developments – apologies if this turns up here twice (sometimes it looks as if a post hasn’t gone through when it has!):

      My thoughts on the demographics of the No voters:

      A fairly significant proportion of No voters are not elderly or ‘working class’ but ‘middle class’ – homeowners in white collar, salaried positions – I’d guess they’re what you’d call Thatcher’s children. That’s the dream they were sold and they’re living it – or at least aspiring to it.

      During the campaign I was struck by the constant references to the ‘working class’. Why? Is independence not for everyone?

      To tell them that independence would make social equality a reality, by protecting and even enhancing the welfare state, would send one very clear message to them – we’re going to get clobbered for tax to pay for it. Remember that they’ve also been sold the slogan of the ‘undeserving poor’. If they’re voting New Labour it’s because they think that’s the party that gives them Tory values but with just a hint of social conscience thrown in.

      Now whether you are care about their mindset or not, you have to address it. You have to engage these No voters.

      So which of the arguments for Yes were targeted particularly at those people?

      For example, where was the Fracking issue in the campaign? A great swathe of the Central Belt of Scotland is being earmarked for fracking. Now, this is a disaster environmentally but also, for those middle class homeowners who don’t have the environmental argument at the top of their agenda, there’s the distinct possibility that even the threat of this could cut property values by up to 80%. The reality could mean compulsory purchase orders and leave land unfit to rebuild on.

      Don’t you think that if they have that information coupled with a clear, robust and genuine anti-fracking policy commitment (whether SNP, Green or both), then they would have a REASON to cast their votes in that direction, surely.

      It would also give more traction to the case for the oil (and, by association, for the removal of Trident to enable extraction) as well as the case for renewable alternatives.

      Did anyone canvass them with this info? Any leaflets, perhaps? I suspect not.

      For the next campaign, include this group of Labour voters and take the arguments to them.

    38. Grouse Beater says:

      People fooled, some happily, by Westminster’s promises should be made to contribute to a fund equal to the finance removed by London.

      That’s what they voted for, that’s what they should pay for. Scotland’s future in Westminster’s hands.

    39. Molly says:

      Hate to say it but work in the public sector. A lot of staff are unaware of the arguments and in some cases even less interested.

      We come back to the same issue. David Cameron can announce in the Telegraph or Guardian or whatever but unless Jackie Bird/John McKay tell us at t time , many will remain oblivious to what’s going on.

      We need a route to get information across .

    40. bookie from hell says:

      Prob with alternate media,we will be talking to ourselves,it’s the 55% no you need to talk to

    41. I appreciate it is in the Herald, which many of us in the 45 have no time for, but, have a read of “The Shackelton Report No. 25”, it is brilliantly-funny, and, we need a laugh right now.

    42. Shuggy says:

      Sincere apologies folks for the repeat posting.

    43. Stewart fae stoney says:

      the 55% who betrayed their country should dig deep into their pockets and make up the difference of what the shortfall is, J K Rowling has plenty of money and she was for No let her bail the country out

    44. Cal says:

      To all No voters and Yes voters visiting for the first time, I refer you to pages 42-46 of the Wee Blue Book which you can read online by clicking on the icon at the top right of this page. These pages and the excellent article http://wingsoverscotland.com/how-scotland-will-be-robbed/ will explain what is now starting to happen. If you’re unhappy about it, why not join one of the parties who campaign for Scottish independence? Here are the links to their websites (in no particular order):

      http://www.scottishsocialistparty.org/
      http://www.snp.org/
      http://www.scottishgreens.org.uk/

    45. Ken500 says:

      FFS Just vote them out. The lot of them.

      They can’t do it.

    46. seanair says:

      SocratesMacSporran
      NO, I will not read the Herald, not now and never again.
      The Glasgow Pravda.

    47. heedtracker says:

      The issue now is where and who in Scotland is £1600 cut per head going to come from. BetterTogetherBBC and co’s next task is getting Labour and Lamont back in power in Scotland, so get set for some chronic cutbacks on the worst off and SNP Scots.gov takes the blame.

      We must be the only country in the world where appalling debt that we didn’t spend is used to annihilate our right to self governance.

      If you voted NO and you start losing your bus pass or your council tax starts climbing, do shut up.

    48. Gordon Adam says:

      @Shuggy

      That’s the most sense I’ve heard post-referendum.

    49. Ken500 says:

      FFS when in a hole attack the SNP. Get real.

      The Unionists can’t do it, if they are voted out. They have stole enough and destroyed the Scottish economy. Get them out.

    50. Iain Gray's Subway Lament says:

      Just a quick reminder to kind hearted Wings regulars.

      If you want to help keep a respected and valuable scottish blog going any assistance at all would be hugely appreciated. 🙂

      https://www.indiegogo.com/projects/scot-goes-pop-the-second-fundraiser

    51. Ken500 says:

      The SNP will not ‘get the blame’. The No voters and the Unionists will.

      Stop posting shite. Go to off topic and stop clogging up the site for real comment.

    52. galamcennalath says:

      It was promises of DevMax/Home Rule wot won it.

      With endless offers of DevoWeeBitMore, Yes had pulled into the lead. I firmly believe it was those promises of DevMax/Home Rule which tipped balance back no No.

      The above article begs the question ….. If they do deliver DevMax/Home Rule, then how can London bring down Scottish public spending?

      The whole point, and for many the attractiveness of DevMax/Home Rule is that all interference in Scottish domestic affair would completely stop?

      So what does Cameron actually plan? I smell shite!

    53. Grouse Beater says:

      I suspect a lot of academics voted No, made anxious about the loss of fat research grants, and irrational worries over a Scottish government in control of academic agenda.

    54. Luigi says:

      I have got to hand to to Cameron. He has stitched up Labour well and truly. Playing tough with those rebellious scots will play extremely well with UKIP supporters. And what is to lose in 2015? David Mundell MP – no great loss to the party. Cameron can certainly live with that. But Labour?

      Ed Milliband is now being portrayed as standing in the way of fairness and democracy for the England. The MSM will crucify him.

      2015 Tory landslide on the way – you can put your money on it.

    55. heedtracker says:

      BBC still at it

      Andy Murray

      So now they go after Andy. BettertogetherBBC propaganda can’t just be switched off. Ok it can be turned off but this is their version of bayoneting the wounded. They clearly think Scotland as a country is dead and gone now but they’ll still do everything they can to make Andy’s life a misery in teamGB.

    56. westie7 says:

      Ye-hah, got thru, signed up
      Wish I’d done it years ago but now there’s only one way forward, roll on May

    57. gillie says:

      Scotland to be punished by the British state for having the temerity to engage in the democratic process. That us telt.

    58. baheid says:

      Can we stop calling NO voters ‘("Tractor" - Ed)s’, the people who mislead them are the ("Tractor" - Ed)s.

    59. alistair says:

      So here we are on the first day of Autumn.
      After our referendum was pissed on from high, the embers are well and truly glowing again and there could be a rare old bonfire by the time Guy Fawkes night comes around again. Maybe we’ll be burning the command white paper due end of October. The next few months up to the GE in May could see the biggest political mobilisation Scotland has ever seen as I think campaigning will be even bigger than for the referendum itself.
      If Rev Stu stays on board this will be worth watching.
      Is he due another fundraiser to keep him going ?

    60. Robert Peffers says:

      @Achnababan says:23 September, 2014 at 8:29 am:

      “I don’t understand why the SNP leadership have been so lack lustre in terms of their opposition to Barnett funding reforms and the proposed new tax powers.

      Thing is, Achnababan, they have, not been lack lustre but they do not get covered by the lying MSM and BBC, (Biased Broadcasting Clique). They go largely unreported while the Westminster tripartite Establishment always have the ear & voice of the media, then Joe & Josephine Scot-Public get a one-sided-view.

      Even when the Scottish media do bother to report things the are one sided. The media bosses have no compunction whatsoever of removing, one way or another, any even handed broadcaster or reporter who dares be even handed.

      Ask yourself why, for example, Isabel Frazer, perhaps the best and most even handed journalist the BBC have on their books, has been relegated to the equivalent of the cub newspaper reporter charged with writing about local flower shows, hatched/matched/dispatched and bonnie baby shows? Why too is Derek Bateman no longer with the BBC? All TV in Scotland is biased and the Scottish dead tree press has only one weekend edition of an otherwise foreign owned publication of the 37 major newspapers in Scotland none are owned by people based in Scotland.

      Ask why, for example, a BBC report of an large organized mob of Better Together thugs making a concerted attack upon a peaceful celebration by YES supporters is not only reported as a confrontation between two rival mobs and is backed up with video and still pictures to show it as such while social media has much stills and footage showing the truth.

    61. Chris Baxter says:

      I’m still very spiteful towards the No clowns, and so I’ve lolled at this.

      They really did want rid of Scotland. They conducted the most inept campaign possible, and thought “this can’t work – they’ll definitely vote no”. Only they thought, after the No result “Jesus, just how fucking stupid are they?”

      So this is them trying harder.

    62. Chris Baxter says:

      baheid

      Can we stop calling NO voters ‘("Tractor" - Ed)s’, the people who mislead them are the ("Tractor" - Ed)s.

      Some of them were misled. But many weren’t. Many still genuinely think “fuck ’em, I’m all right”.

    63. Luigi says:

      How will England view the Labour party in the run up to 2015:

      1. An extremely weak leader, who stabbed his brother in the back.

      2. A bunch of incompetents, who almost lost Scotland.

      3. Anti English behaviour – a refusal to endorse plans to rectify the West Lothian Question.

      And the Scottish view:

      1. An extremely weak leader, who stabbed his brother in the back.

      2. A bunch of incompetents, who helped to destroy the dreams of a Scottish generation.

      3. Anti-Scottish behaviour – a refusal to endorse real powers (devo max). In fact they only came up with the weakest of the three unionist party proposals.

      And then there’s the vow!

      Oh Dear, things ain’t looking great for Labour next year.

    64. Luigi says:

      Some of them were misled. But many weren’t. Many still genuinely think “fuck ‘em, I’m all right”.

      Aye, but we can’t separate the sheep from the goats, and we need all the sheep we can get! Insulting them en masse will just turn them all into goats.

    65. Flower of Scotland says:

      My No friends are all middleclass. The common theme in them voting No was money. Their money! Some have small businesses, and all were worried about the money in their pocket! At least half of them are English. I am half English, but I do object to these people coming up here to reap the benefits of the NHS, free prescriptions, bus passes and a better way of life and then vote against my country becoming Independent!

      Not all English people feel that way! The rest are Scottish and like being part of the UK! However, I still don’t think that they were confident that Scotland could make it on its own!

      It’s terribly frustrating, but I have to keep them onside and still chip away with great stuff on Facebook about cuts coming. I constantly share this stuff with them. Always hoping……

    66. Robert Louis says:

      The problem is the media and in particular, the lying propagandist BBC. We in the time available before the General election, have work to do.

      We need to point out how the media have lied, and most importantly point out just how corrupt the BBC actually is.

      Most folks are blissfully unaware of how the BBC works. The impartiality of the BBC is apparently overseen by the BBC Trust – just it’s name – ‘Trust’. It makes you feel like they will ensure the BBC behaves, jolly good chaps making sure the BBC is aimpartial. Until you find out how it works. The director general of the BBC, who makes all subordinate appointments, and has editorial oversight, is appointed by the BBC trust. The chairman of the BBC trust is appointed by the Queen and Prime Minister. Seriously!

      Most people are completely unaware of how much the BBC is controlled by Westminster and the British establishment. It is a Westminster/English propagandist mouthpiece, no more, no less, and my patience with ANY who work there has worn out (sorry Derek Batemen, but I’ve seen enough now). They ALL played their part in deceiving the people of Scotland. Shame on them. A disgraceful place to work. Anti Scottish Filth.

    67. DozyR says:

      Independence is more palatable a nicer word than Nationalist. Scottish independence party has longer shelf life working to prosper & maintain independence.

      Scottish Borders – full of middle class voters as well as poor wee pensioner that was scared to death. Didn’t see any canvasing here at all. There are good honest people here with no info to counteract what they’re fed. Internet here is shocking anyway, a black hole, people can’t use it regardless.

      People believe people.

      The young folk on FB are all worked up after being cheated. Heading to protest on Sunday at Parliament Square. They have taken up a cause for the first time in their sometimes uneducated lives. They’re joining the SNP in their droves to fight for truth and their freedom.

      Hope they get the party they were robbed of and not just another disappointment. Xx

    68. Chris Baxter says:

      Luigi

      Aye, but we can’t separate the sheep from the goats, and we need all the sheep we can get! Insulting them en masse will just turn them all into goats

      Agreed. We do need to be smart, and if that means biting our collective tongue (which it does) then that’s what should be done.

      Honey works better than vinegar.

    69. heedtracker says:

      Lord Barnett in the Daily Heil

      “I didn’t create the so-called Barnett Formula to give Scotland an advantage over the rest of the country when it comes to public funding. It is a great embarrassment to have my name attached to so unfair a system that has only lasted as long as it has because successive governments have failed to deal with the issue for fear of upsetting the Scots. I have been pressing the case for wholesale reform of the system for many years.”

      “I believe the Barnett Formula should be scrapped as soon as is practicable and replaced by a statutory body charged with distributing government spending in a way that the most money goes to areas that need it most.”

      Scotland loses 5.3 mn x £1600 = £8.5bn. Who pays?

      So instead of starting Scottish independence this week taking control of Scots oil and gas, we are now facing massive economic decline or crash.

      I’m alright jocks must be so proud this week.

    70. john king says:

      Achnababan says
      “I don’t understand why the SNP leadership have been so lack lustre in terms of their opposition to Barnett funding reforms and the proposed new tax powers. ”

      I would imagine that real politic demands that you dont piss of the person with the purse strings,
      now the SNP have to think about the population of Scotland in other words the tories dont and wont!

    71. Grant says:

      Westminster will bleed Scotland dry, maybe that is a good thing. The hand of Westminster on the throats of Scotland might be the push over the edge required. I do feel sorry for the innocent that will be hurt.

      And to David Cameron “I know why the sun never sets on the British Empire, God would never trust an Englishman in the dark”

    72. Marcia says:

      They were warned, if the electorate took time to read the literature sent out.

      The SNP must be getting near to doubling their membership since Friday. A lot of new members have joined via Parliamentary Offices and should be added to the total online figure soon.

    73. Ken500 says:

      Stop inter fighting. Concentrate on the positive. Get the lying Unionists politicians out. Vote SNP and get control over the Scottish economy. Westminster can do nothing. They will not have the power. The Scottish Gov can appeal to EU court of human rights.

      Telling lies is not a great political strategy.

    74. Boorach says:

      I would like to see a site along the lines of ‘Indy Poster Boy’ be established as a library of (preferably) A5 leaflets in PDF format for downloading and home printing.

      There’s a huge range of general topic subjects which could be covered: Oil, Pensions, The Scottish NHS, Barnett Formula, comparison of average wage and tax take etc of Scandinavian countries with UK demonstrating difference in spending power with UK. etc,

      Let’s get our street stalls back out there and educate our neighbours so that when the call comes we are ready and the scare stories have already have been neutralised.

      Pesonally I use a laser printer and with the winter approaching would suggest that folk who don’t have one look to aquiring one. They are not expensive and the toner doesn’t run when damp. Also, they are actually cheaper to run than inkjets.

    75. heedtracker says:

      BBC attack propaganda a tad different from what Andy actually said. From Glasgow evening times

      “The 27-year-old Scot told his followers: “Huge day for Scotland today! no campaign negativity last few days totally swayed my view on it. excited to see the outcome. lets do this!”

      Independence was ultimately rejected by a margin of 55% to 45%.

      Asked if he had any regrets about sending the tweet, Murray said: “I don’t regret giving an opinion. I think everyone should be allowed that. The way I did it, yeah, it wasn’t something I would do again.

      “I think it was a very emotional day for a lot of Scottish people and the whole country and the whole of the UK, it was a big day.

    76. David says:

      He’s so cute when he tries to get mean!

      These guys are our biggest recruitment tool!

      Come on, spank us you bitches. Get our cause really going!

    77. Iain Gray's Subway Lament says:

      SNP now 3rd largest party in UK over 20,000 new members.
      Might even be heading for 50,000 total! 😮

      THE FIRE RISES! 😀

      http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=36odfqA-Xqw

      The fight back is ON!

    78. Luigi says:

      If there are any WBBs still around, I think we should keep distributing them.

      An adapted version, addressing specific fears and concerns that analyses show caused many potential YES voters to waver, would also be valuable. Then there’s possibilities for Polish, Latvian, Asian versions etc.

      Rev, no one deserves a break more than you, but I hope you do stay in the game long-term, and help the 45 to grow.

      How about a Wee Red Book, specially designed for distributing to disaffected Labour voters in 2015?

      We could wipe those barstewards out in 2015.

    79. Nana Smith says:

      Email received this morning, what a bloody cheek.
      Mind you it does show desperation when you have to get wifey to do the begging for you…

      Dear Nana

      It’s great to be back in Manchester for Labour Party conference this week — the city where I was born and where Ed was elected leader of the Labour Party.

      Today, Ed will be taking the stage again to set out his plan for Britain’s future. He wants to win so we can change Britain together, and I know he wants you to be on stage with him too.

      We will be projecting the pictures of thousands of Labour supporters on the big screen behind Ed today before he makes his speech — can you add yours now?

      There’s only a few hours left until Ed’s speech, so this is your last chance — it’s all done through Facebook and it takes just a couple of clicks. You’ll be asked to authorise an app — don’t worry, it won’t post anything to your wall:

      Honestly, as a young lawyer who wanted to change the world, I never would have believed that I would become a politician’s wife. It’s not a role you apply for, nor one I’ve found easy to understand.

      Just after Ed won, I Googled a few terms to see if there were books I could read on the role of a politician’s spouse. All that came up was references to ‘the good wife’, and that wasn’t quite what I had in mind.

      But despite some of the personal challenges, I couldn’t be more committed to campaigning for a Labour win next year.

      For me, the next election is about the sort of country we want to build together, and who we want to be to each other. It’s about whether principles and decency in public life can count for something. It is a fight for values and honesty in politics over personal smears.

      So no matter how nasty it gets over the next 8 months, I’m up for the fight. Join Ed on stage today and show you are too.

      We can’t do it without you.

      Thanks,

      Justine

    80. Mags says:

      Errrr…. Guys…. When Scotland gets *more* power over it’s own taxes and *more* powers become devolved… They’ll need less money from central government.

      This is just the logical end game of further devolution and identical in fact to what Yes voters wanted surely!

    81. Anita83 says:

      You need to look at the figures to see why it was a no vote, the majority of people surviving on the lowest pension in the EU voted NO, they voted NO because they were told via telephone canvassing and on their own doorsteps that if they voted YES they would lose their pensions!!!! Now, i personally cannot blame somebody for voting NO if they were told such nonsense, and it seems this practice was widespread. The offer of additional powers was against the Edinburgh agreement, as was the disgraceful use of the media by Westmonster, they signed the Edinburgh agreement, they broke the agreement, they signed the vow, they are now backsliding, i am simply amazed by how many well educated people actually trusted them to keep to the vow in the first place?! It’s like giving a burglar the keys to your house to make it easier for them! They have form for lies, for screwing Scotland, yet people still think they give a chit about more than just lining their pockets… 45% of us are not as easily fooled, and the numbers are growing…

    82. Robert Louis says:

      Chris baxter,

      I fundamentally disagree. There will always be voters who care for nobody but themselves, but in the referendum, Many people were deceived by the BBC and papers. The do not know wings over Scotland, or Newsnet Scotland, or Bella Caledonia. Even some SNP members knew nothing of these sites until very late on in the campaign.

      Many NO voters did not even suspect (and still don’t) for one second that the BBC were lying to them. Why? because the BBC devotes a great deal of time and energy lying to people that it is honest, balanced and impartial. They say it all the time. All the way during the campaign, they plugged THEIR BBC website on the referendum.

      Some people in Scotland have piss poor internet – ‘broadband’ that is barely better than the old dial up modems. They cannot watch streaming video, and accessing content rich websites is extremely difficult. These people relied on the BBC and have been deceived, big time.

      Those people are not ("Tractor" - Ed)s and I’ll get angry at the next person who states that, the ("Tractor" - Ed)s reside in pacific Quay, John Smith House, Glasgow, 10 Downing Street and the craven London serving ‘uk’ and so-called ‘scottish’ (but English controlled) press.

    83. Macart says:

      Well who knew?

      But its never too late to right a wrong. Let’s get to May next year and put a pro independence party with a manifesto commitment to deliver out there. For those who have already had second thoughts about their ‘no’ vote, this should confirm their misgivings. They must be made aware and reassured that it ain’t over till its over and there’s always a chance to get it right second time around. Remember we’re still trying to win hearts and minds.

    84. RMAC says:

      No real huge surprise at the vow getting flushed within a few days. Its been an interesting few days and the various comments make interesting reading. There is no mileage at all in pursueing the “rigged” ballot IMHO, the same for protests at Pacific Quay. I have said it before but this will be spun by the MSM to make anyone taking part as either a crank or a poor loser attempting to intimidate the media. If you need proof look at how Friday night in Glasgow was reported. I know this will be an unpopular view in a lot of areas but it does nothing to advance our purpose… we know the reporting was biased enough to make Pravda look tame. What we need to do is get this message out to those who voted know so that they can make informed decisions with the correct facts. Regarding protests at PQ these will have no real effect and if anything the attendance/support for them will dwindle to the point that the only real effect they will have had is to demotivate those that take part as they will not be reported other than in the terms mention above. Its also not far from Ibrox so there is the potential for clashes with OO thugs that will be reported in such a way as to do more harm to the independence cause than good. As I said I know that this will be an unpopular point of view but I really think this is a blind alley.
      A lot has been said about issues like targeting things that are important to No voters such as property values, fracking’s impact and the vested interests of people like Sir Iain Wood. It may very well have happened but was never reported or would never have been reported if it was indeed not pointed out. How can we get the information about anyone standing for public office with links to the OO, BNP, NF etc’ to their potential constituents. This needs some form of representation in the MSM and this is where energy is better spent IMHO. How can we create or get a hold of an MSM outlet that can be used to target those that we can’t currently reach or to ensure that SLAB voters that are not on social media don’t return to type. in 2015.

    85. Nana Smith says:

      @Robert Louis

      Please add Ian Wood to the list. A fine speech he gave to my son’s graduation group 2 mths ago. Along the lines of “Get out into the world and show truth & humility and do your utmost to build a better world”

      Obviously he didn’t mean that for his own country and proved just how big a fraud he is.

    86. Training Day says:

      @Robert Louis

      Indeed. And now those Labour voters who voted Yes in disgust at ‘their’ party need to stay strong over the next few months until the GE, for the BBC has already launched its ‘the only way to beat the Tories is to vote Labour/a vote for the SNP is a wasted vote’ campaign. Both Glen Campbell and the disgraceful political editor of the Daily Record were banging that drum on GMS this morning.

    87. uilleam_beag says:

      I’m feeling angry, sad and righteously indignant. Why didn’t folk listen?

      Oh, they’ll be bleating “We wiz duped!” But it’s too late now, no matter how much the boost in Green Party, SSP and SNP membership might revive our hopes.

      We could push the SNP to run in May on a ticket of unilaterally declaring indy or Devo Max with a majority of Scottish seats, but is that going to fly in Westminster? No more Mr Nice Guy from the Tories now.

    88. scotsbob says:

      I copied the post below from here. Is there any mileage to be had in this?

      https://www.facebook.com/naomi.wolf.author/posts/10152688830729476?fref=nf

      So the BBC lied to you, Scotland. It is true that the Referendum Bill of 2013 forbids the CHIEF COUNTING OFFICER from recounting votes after they have been declared. But it does not forbid anyone ELSE from recounting the votes and it gives any person in Scotland the power to request and receive the register of the votes. So…you may not be able to revote (this time around) but you can all ASK FOR AND RECEIVE the full tally of votes and see what the outcome really was. And….the votes have not yet been certified. They are certified six weeks from now. So the election is not actually legally ‘over.’ You can as you see ‘bring proceedings for a petition of a judicial review’ for the next five weeks.

      You need to “apply to the supervisory jurisdiction of the Court of Session’ to get a judicial review. And at this point we need to ask a Scottish barrister what exactly that means.

      But Scotland — your process is not over. They are trying to trick you in saying the process is over. That vote count only stands if it rests for six weeks without a petition for a judicial review. Please share widely. And remember — every single one of you has the right to ask for the register of votes in your council and receive it to review it in a public place.

      34Restriction on legal challenge to referendum result

      (1)No court may entertain any proceedings for questioning the number of ballot papers counted or votes cast as certified by a counting officer or by the Chief Counting Officer under section 7(2)(b) or (as the case may be) (4) unless—
      (a)the proceedings are brought by way of a petition for judicial review, and
      (b)the petition is lodged before the end of the permitted period.
      (2)In subsection (1)(b) “the permitted period” means the period of 6 weeks beginning with—
      (a)the day on which the officer in question makes the certification as to the number of ballot papers counted and votes cast in the referendum, or
      (b)if the officer makes more than one such certification, the day on which the last is made.
      (3)In subsection (1), references to a petition for judicial review are references to an application to the supervisory jurisdiction of the Court of Session.

    89. Ken500 says:

      They can’t do anything to you. If you vote them out. The Liars Unionists are the most unpopular politicians in Scotland. Vote them out. The power is in your hands. Alex Salmond is the most popular politician in Scotland.

    90. Macart says:

      @uilleam_beag

      Electoral fraud. The two outcomes had to be clearly defined for voters.

      Promises made and kept. BT and Westminster made a lot of promises they have to keep and they’ve not exactly got off to a flier. 🙂

    91. Muscleguy says:

      That Barnett would be cut pro-rata for every pound raised in devolved taxation was always part of the deal offered. Thus this is hardly a cut (other than the £200m annual cost of running a Scottish HMRC). So your thesis this time Stu is rather desperate I’m afraid. Your sceptical senses have deserted you here and you have fallen for the headline alone.

      I’m not that gullible, sorry.

    92. Jim Mitchell says:

      Hands up all those who are surprised!

    93. Edward says:

      According to the Herald “Chief counting officer says no vote-rigging” – chief counting officer has said the independence referendum count was “properly conducted” following claims of vote-rigging.

      Oh well that that’s ok then, perhaps the videos of a guy marking up ballot papers and another of a woman shuffling the ballot papers putting ‘Yes’ votes into the ‘No’ pile was something quite innocent and easily explained – I’m waiting for that explanation

    94. mary vasey says:

      I too have joined SNP, first time in 50 yrs I have joined any political party.
      Thanks for the post Stu and for some informative and interesting comments as usual

    95. D_Hamilton says:

      Incredible upsurge in SNP & Green party membership which is hugely encouraging but with the focus now turning to the GE and the likelihood of a Tory government being returned, what is an achievable objective – 30+ Independence MP’s being returned? Expecting that the Independece parties can start looking at the location of their new members and where best to deploy their efforts pre-GE?

    96. Ken500 says:

      FFS what have Ian Wood and Andy Murray got to do with it. Andy Murray doesn’t even have a vote and Ian Wood is not a politician.

    97. Ken500 says:

      Justine should google the good liar who fills their boots. Who elected her. A PR company.

    98. Roger says:

      it’s no use just saying ‘We told you so’. You need to explain that if Scotland’s share of taxes collected in the UK (including Scotland) is being cut, and the shortfall is expected to be made up by taking Scotland AGAIN via the Scottish Parliament, this represents double taxation. It’s outrageous and needs to be challenged by somebody (SNP seems obvious starting point) who understands all the technicalities. But the basic point of double taxation needs to be RAMMED home!

    99. Robert Louis says:

      I do think from this day forward, every single indy supporting politician, green, SNP or SSP, when interviewed on the BBC needs to talk about their blatant bias. They need a cachet of hard easy facts in their head, to give out any time – repeat, repeat, repeat, every single time. This urgently NEEDS done.

      In addition, when issues related to CBI statements are raised, they need to ALWAYS point out that the BBC funds the CBI, and is a full member of that anti independence group.

      Right now the SNP are the third largest party in the UK, so today, they need to start shouting about how their conference in Perth needs FULL BBC coverage, and not the joke pretendy coverage it gets at present. They need to start screaming about fair coverage for the GE in 2015, so they get as many party political broadcasts as Labour and Tories. They need to bang the drum, non stop, and bring this huge unfair coverage to the attention of everybody. It will work eventually.

      Don’t believe me? Nigel Farage did just that. They are now talking of having him in the leadership debates with Cameron and Miliband for the GE 2015, despite not having one single freaking MP.

      People say it will be hard etc.. but look SNP, you are really going to have to bite the bullet and call these liars out some time, or you will have the BBC lying 24/7 to ensure Labour win in the GE in Scotland – AGAIN.

      Oh, and you really should refuse conference admission to Glenn Campbell. Time to get tough.

    100. Ken500 says:

      Do not vote for the Unionists. They will not have a mandate. They can do nothing in Scotland. The power is in your hands.

    101. Roger says:

      @uilleam_beag
      We could push the SNP to run in May on a ticket of unilaterally declaring indy or Devo Max with a majority of Scottish seats, but is that going to fly in Westminster?

      No, the real question is how would it fly in SCOTLAND. There would be a danger of a civil war – do you think the Loyalists, with their links to the UDA and the rest, would be beyond starting real trouble? And do you not realise that there are people who would give them guns? This has got to be handled so carefully….

    102. may eadie says:

      Keep up the good work all us yes voters knew what was going to happen if we lost the vote. But Westminster didn’t bank on what is going to happen next the dream lives on and we will keep on fighting until it is realised Freedom.

    103. John Reid says:

      I feel most for the elderly YES voters, met so many brilliant men and women at the polling station, with a fantastic attitude many saying they were voting YES for their grandchildren/great grandchildren. The sad thing is that for some it will probably have been their last opportunity to live in an independent Scotland.

    104. Luigi says:

      O/T Please consider signing the petition for control of broadcasting for Holyrood. Lord Smith said he wants all the people of Scotland involved in his proposals for more devolution. Well, let’s give him a big message that the people want control of broadcasting for starters:

      http://www.thepetitionsite.com/574/697/105/put-scotland-in-control-of-scottish-broadcasting/

    105. Bob Sinclair says:

      I wonder if ‘rigging’ can be added to the filter which places posts in moderation in order to keep the dross out. A lot of it (not all) seems to be coming from new or very infrequent posters.

    106. Iain Gray's Subway Lament says:

      “but with the focus now turning to the GE and the likelihood of a Tory government being returned, what is an achievable objective”

      Holding the westminster unionist liars to account and deploying all available resources in a co-ordinated strategy to rid scotland of as many as possible of the labour tory and lib dem unionist MPs who lied to the scottish people and the MPs who want to try and punish scotland for daring to try and oppose their westminster masters.

      Obviously that will involve targeting and the closer we get to May 2015 the better a read we will have on where and who are the most vulnerable of the westminster No MPs.

      A huge and growing number of scots clearly want to fight back and protect themselves from vindictive tories and labour. There can be no better way than making our voices heard as loudly as possible at the 2015 GE.

    107. Chris Baxter says:

      Robert Louis

      Many people were deceived by the BBC and papers.

      I don’t dispute that. But you’ve already agreed that many voted No regardless of that. I’m not sure what you disagree with.

    108. Ken500 says:

      The SNP has been calling the Unionists out for liars for years. Alex Salmond has been telling the truth for years, since being an Oil economist at RBS. One of the first people to discover the Unionist (Thatcher lies) The SNP exposed the Labour Party lie’s the McCrone Report etc. Every person in Britain knows the Westminster lies. So stop blaming the SNP.

    109. desimond says:

      Lots of emotion which is always good to see and the difference of opinion ( copyright Winner take All) is very interesting.

      Personally, I think the vast majority of No voters voted No out of self preservation rather than ignorance. I dont think lots of Scottish people care about others as much as we would hope or dream.

      They may be playing the “Oh I regret it” card for now but I believe in my heart of hearts that when it comes to it, they will always look within and say “Im okay, thats what matters”.

      How we convert these people, I do not know, so i would park them to the side and targe the ignorant. The first step could be:

      YES Alliance Scotland (YAS) stands at GE on platform including independence and a NEW Scottish Broadcasting Corp(SBC).

      YAS win enough power to negotiate delivery of new fully accountable SBC.

      Main Media stranglehold on truth and spin removed ( although then you could be going down a darker road but lets address that nearer the time)

    110. Dorothy Devine says:

      Does anyone know of any other country which rejected independence and voted to remain being told what to do by the Brutish Empire or any other empire?

    111. Rev. Stuart Campbell says:

      “That Barnett would be cut pro-rata for every pound raised in devolved taxation was always part of the deal offered.”

      Yes, I know. That’s why the articles linked in this piece point to quotes from the UK government saying exactly that. This is exactly what we said would happen, and we REPEATEDLY pointed out that the UK parties would NOT be breaking their word by doing so. So either learn to read properly or fuck off.

    112. Luigi says:

      I feel most for the elderly YES voters, met so many brilliant men and women at the polling station, with a fantastic attitude many saying they were voting YES for their grandchildren/great grandchildren. The sad thing is that for some it will probably have been their last opportunity to live in an independent Scotland.

      At least all those heroes can rest assured that they did the right thing, unlike their NO voting peers, who willingly gave up the one and only chance they had to see independence in their lifetimes.

      The referendum was a life defining moment. We are all defined by how we voted. It can never be changed.

      After the first, painful 24 hours post referendum, I can now report that I am, once again, sleeping very well at night.

    113. Rev. Stuart Campbell says:

      “This is just the logical end game of further devolution and identical in fact to what Yes voters wanted surely!”

      No, it’s not. Unless you think a “poisoned chalice” is supposed to be a good thing, you imbecile.

    114. Kevin Evans says:

      Anyone new on here mentioning “rigging” is obviously here because they have nowhere else to turn – moving forward is about including not excluding.

    115. Ken500 says:

      @Jim Mitchell 23 September, 2014 at 9.53 am

      The thistle among the thorns

      That made folk laugh : – )

    116. Welsh Phil says:

      I notice a journalist on BBC news this morning talking about moves needed to stop the Nationalists getting Independence by stealth………….what a bloody cheek!

      Won’t have to listen to it much longer (don’t know why I still do) because I’ve now given notice to BBC that licence will no longer be required 🙂

    117. ronnie anderson says:

      I will be at Hollyrood parliament today about 12pm,any Wingers going.

    118. heedtracker says:

      Ken500 says:
      23 September, 2014 at 9:56 am
      FFS what have Ian Wood and Andy Murray got to do with it. Andy Murray doesn’t even have a vote and Ian Wood is not a politician

      Ian Wood was central in the bettertogtherBBC campaign to convince voters that Scots oil would run out by 2030 Ken. He lied about being impartial too. Last year Ian Wood was encouraging kids to work in Scots oil for a great career for life.

      Wood’s one of the more obvious reasons Scotland has no state oil pension fund like all other oil producers have. Guys like Wood have made unimaginable amounts of money from our natural resources while Norway invests theirs in the whole of Norway.

      TeamGB, like the USA are giant kleptocracies and Ian Wood is right at the heart of it all.

      TeamGB lowest wages in Europe and the US, teamGB pensions lowest in Europe. Ian Wood of Aberdeen, one of the richest men on the planet and on it goes.

    119. manandboy says:

      How can we create or get a hold of an MSM outlet that can be used to target those that we can’t currently reach or to ensure that SLAB voters that are not on social media don’t return to type. in 2015.
      _______________________________________________________
      THE GUNS OF NAVARONE

      The enemy’s guns are still in position.

      If we don’t spike them

      or create a parallel TV & Press network – not feasible,

      there will be only one winner.

    120. Haggis Hunter says:

      Thats my missus joined the SNP, the BBC license fee payment stopped and my pesion in the process of being removed from the Standard Life.

    121. john king says:

      RMAC says
      “There is no mileage at all in pursueing the “rigged” ballot IMHO”

      And even less milage pretending no vote rigging took place,
      That people stole votes seems pretty unequvical to me, I personally am aware of a young girl losing her vote as “she had already cast it” ,the legions of accusations of people “filling in” ballot papers for others,

      So when we (if we ) get another chance and we lose by 50% +1 you’ll be fine with that I suppose?

      http://techpresident.com/news/wegov/23261/despite-some-glitches-ghanas-introduction-biometric-voting-system-widely-viewed-success
      this is the way!

    122. Jim McIntosh says:

      We keep going on about frightened pensioners voting NO because of the scare stories but the stats don’t support that. The scare stories ramped up in the last month of the campaign but Ashcroft’s poll indicated that 72% of NO’s made their mind up over a year ago. That’s almost 1.5 Million voters out of a total of 2 Million.

      Of the voters who made up their minds this year they went 2 to 1 for YES. I’m not sure we could have done better.

      I think we have to push hard for proper devo-max over the next 5-6 years. The SNP at Hollyrood and Westminster should make that issue their main manifesto promise. These real powers will make the transition to independence easier.

      Remember that over 50% of the NO vote came from the over 55’s, by 2020 approximately 10% will have shuffled off to be better together somewhere else. Add to that the over 250,000 extra young voters who will come onto the register.

      The extra powers we should have won plus the different age demographics should mean we win comfortably.

      Our imperial masters won’t give up easily and I’d say the biggest danger is something along the lines of what Jack Straw was mooting the other day. A vote in WM to stop any further referendums.

    123. Ken500@hotmail.co.uk says:

      ‘Their Conference needs FULL BBC coverage’

      ‘You really should refuse conference admission to Glenn Campbell’

      Or let Glenn Campbell in and slag him off. It is Taylor that attends. Cochrane, etc. Screwed up faces. Nearly got a slagging off but disappeared pronto. They don’t hang around, Too feart.

    124. desimond says:

      Taking the example of the errant husband begging forgiveness as the broken wife is walking out the door, he promises to change and she pauses. She then closes the door while still inside. What usually happens afterwards?

      He changes not a jot, indeed possibly gets worse, and the wife shrugs and says “Hey, what you gonna do eh?”

      We will soon approach that crucial point, its how we counter the apathetic people of Scotland sighing “Hey what you gonna do eh?” that will matter, to ensure we still have impetus going into Spring 2015 and building up to fight at GE.

    125. Iain Gray's Subway Lament says:

      Doesn’t matter how they previously tried to hide it in weasel words, the red tories, yellow tories and blue tories certainly didn’t order their media lackeys to go wall to wall on a VOW to cut public funds for Scotland.

      All we need do is point out the reality of that and let the westminster liars worry about feeble excuses that are hardly going to to be trusted or taken very seriously now.

      They will reap what they have sown.

    126. Chris Baxter says:

      Muscleguy

      That Barnett would be cut pro-rata for every pound raised in devolved taxation was always part of the deal offered. Thus this is hardly a cut

      Let’s say the current lump sum from Barnett is £30 billion*. The current lowest band income tax rate is 20%.

      If £5 billion of that lump sum is cut, then to fill that budget deficit, income tax will have to be raised to cover that. So perhaps people in Scotland will be paying 25% income tax, which is 5% higher. Alternatively, the tax rate can remain 25% but massive cuts have to be made.

    127. jacksloan2013 says:

      The Tory solution to the West Lothian Question, English only votes on debates on English matters, is being posed as a problem for Labour’s power base and its voting numbers in England. It is all about Labour and England again.

      Scottish MPs sent to Westminster would only be voting on remaining UK issues, nothing else. How often are defense and foreign affairs debated?

      If imposed, a Scottish MP could never again serve in cabinet or become PM. And Scots would not be appointed to the Shadow Cabinet.

      Our representatives marginalised, Westminster becomes less relevant and independence more so.

    128. Roger says:

      Re electoral fraud…I think to put those claims in perspective, people should take a look at one of the most controversial by elections in UK history – Fermaagh/South Tyrone in 1981, when Bobby Sands, an IR hunger striker, stood against an Ulster Unionist Party candidate (the seat had been Unionist held) and WON. This represented a huge blow to the British Gov and took place in the context of a low level war with all sorts of spies, spooks and intelligence services playing all sorts of games – but Sands WON it! Maybe the Representation of the People Act actually works better than people think…

      http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fermanagh_and_South_Tyrone_by-election,_April_1981

    129. David Anderson says:

      Just to add my tuppenceworth. In hindsight I feel the SNP (I have just joined) were the ones who should have focussed on the pensioners and the so-called middle classes. The grassroots movement took care of the rest through canvassing certain areas and social media etc. If we lost due to pensioners and people worried about cash then why did the SNP not forsee this? They had enough time to work it out. Further to this, I agree with some of the posters about the negative focus on the Tories, it is fact that they exist and the electing of a UKIP MEP should have been a warning to tone down that side of things. Yes talk about the democratic deficit but for everyone not just Labour and the so-called working classes.

      From here on in I also agree that the energy should be harnessed purposively and to further the YES cause. The surge on SNP and Green support is great and I hope people keep joining in large numbers. We have to build on what has been a huge re-engagement with politics. Enough of the fraud shit and more of the let’s keep the passion and energy for the long road ahead. There is plenty of work to be done if we want another shot and it is up to us to see that happen.

    130. Chris Baxter says:

      I meant the tax can remain 20%….

    131. balaaargh says:

      The SNP need to be careful about UDI. Remember “free by 93?”

      Telling people up front to vote for the SNP could result tactical voting from Tories or BLABers. At the same time, a free and democratic Scotland has always been the goal so you can’t say they weren’t warned. 😉

      We also need to stop over-analysing ourselves. Political machinations take time. Rome wasn’t built in a day but we’ve gotten ourselves a cracking new amphitheatre!

    132. CM says:

      Can I join the SNP only by using paypal? I prefer not to use credit cards.

    133. jackie g says:

      From MSM today surprise surprise,cheers Gordon.

      Golden Brown

      I do not generally subscribe to miracles, but the transformation of the ‘No’ campaign during the Scottish independence campaign was little short of miraculous.

      It was formally led by Alistair Darling, the former Labour Chancellor of the Exchequer.

      Now Mr Darling is a decent man and a very able politician, but he is not a member of the rough-and-tumble school of politics which, in reality, this campaign demanded.

      His logic, like his courtesy, was always impeccable, but he lacked the fiery equipment to deal with the rough-house tactics which, sadly, engulfed the election, particularly in its later stages.

      He would have been the ideal man to lead a campaign in say prim Frinton-on-Sea but seemed totally unsuitable for the rough end of Glasgow.

      And that is why, as the campaign entered its closing stages with ‘Yes’ in the up and up, the ‘No’ vote grandees began to panic.

      It was at this stage, I suspect, that Mr Darling was quietly led into the shade, and Gordon Brown was unofficially handed the unofficial helm.

      He is normally a growly, not very inspiring speaker. But his rip-roaring, splendidly rabble-rousing performance on the eve of the poll, was simply a classic – probably the best and most effective speech he ever made.

      It is no exaggeration to suggest that it was the key factor in the ‘No’ triumph.

      Brown should have entered the fray much earlier than he did.

      Meanwhile, a knighthood should be on the horizon.

    134. Iain Gray's Subway Lament says:

      Soon enough there will be an organised campaign to end the TV Tax and replace it with a subscription based model like every other normal pay TV channel and service.

      That will have to be done entirely on the grounds of fairness (which the license fee is most definitely not) for it to be taken seriously and create a groundswell.

      Those who want to punish the BBC for their disgusting bias right now can stop paying the TV Tax but getting rid of it completely and replacing it with something better like a subscription model should obviously be the medium term goal.

    135. James Dow says:

      The thing that disturbs me the most about this site and other similar sites, is the lack of courage from all sorts of people pontificating their opinion, with an alias Why should any of you be considered seriously when you can’t even represent as yourself. You might ask what’s in a name? my response EVERY THING. If you are too scared to be yourself I suggest you take you and your name and piss off.
      My name is James Dow and I live in Melbourne Australia and can be easily found for anyone who wishes.
      It truly is symbolic of the fear factor that inhabits the Scotland of today.

    136. desimond says:

      @Chris Baxter

      What government is going to raise Taxes in Scotland so they are higher than in England? It wont happen. Services will be cut or privatised, goodbye Scottish Water etc.

      Win win for the Tories here sadly

    137. yesindyref2 says:

      The article is good, and the headline good, for making people aware and keeping their eyes on the VOW.

      It does say clearly in the article that No 10 says that the Barnett is in place, but would reduce as fiscal powers are devolved to Scotland.

      This is a wait and see thing, not one to go off on yet.

    138. When the cuts arrive here I hope the SG will cut everything for the pensioners, bus passes, winter fuel allowance, any other allowance that affects pensioners, the pension etc before they cut the money from the young and needy.
      Now I know that it will hurt fantastic pensioners who voted YES (I am one) but those who voted NO need to suffer so they can appreciate fully what they did. If we look after them so they never notice the pain they would do exactly the same again.

      I am in pain even thinking this but they need to feel the grief their actions will cause for the many.

    139. Ken500 says:

      Ian Wood has been saying the Oil will run out for forty years. No one listened to him then and no one listens to him now. Ian Wood worked 70 hours a week to build up a successful company and – created jobs for millions of well paid people and brought £Billions into Scotland. Tried to give £80Million (back?) to the City of Aberdeen to pedestrianised the City. Unionists knocked it back.

      Any wealth Ian Wood acquired is now in a Foundation to help the most vulnerable in the world. The legacy Pay back. £50Million has already gone to Africa. £Millions to the Uni and young people. Now shut the fuck up about Ian Wood. How much have the critics given to Africa?

    140. ronnie anderson says:

      ( We told you so #2 )

      They told us so #1 #2 #3 #4, the Deef , Dumb , N Blind,

      didnt want to know ( an I dont mean the deef, dumb n

      blind in the physical sence ) the Disabled will suffer

      more as will every other person in Scotland. Is it to

      early to request a we song for all those that voted No

      Wee Edif Pee’d AFF NO Regres enjoy.

    141. Macart says:

      Its the only way of travel. Point out those areas where YES campaigns warnings are proven to have been accurate and jump on any part of their pledges they haven’t fulfilled to the letter. Return as many pro independence representatives to Westminster as possible next may and in 2016 fill Holyrood with a rainbow alliance. Eject and reject Labour and their cronies most especially. Basically make Scotland as ungovernable as possible for the buggers.

      Somehow I doubt we’ll be waiting twenty years for a second bite. 🙂

    142. James123 says:

      @CM

      Maybe you could join using a Paypal credit card, if you don’t have one they’re easy to get.

    143. Chris Baxter says:

      desimond

      What government is going to raise Taxes in Scotland so they are higher than in England? It wont happen. Services will be cut or privatised, goodbye Scottish Water etc.

      I completely agree. By raising income tax and other taxes, businesses would be driven south, so it would defeat the purpose.

      Cuts it is. Something that muscleguy doesn’t seem to grasp.

    144. Iain Gray's Subway Lament says:

      @CM

      If you can get gold of an SNP membership leaflet to post you can even pay by cheque/postal order.

      Sadly I’m not too sure about PayPal so maybe someone else can help?

    145. Quentin Quale says:

      James Dow – yeah, cos that’s the most important thing to talk about right now. Jeez.

    146. RMAC says:

      @John King
      “So when we (if we ) get another chance and we lose by 50% +1 you’ll be fine with that I suppose?”
      I never said that, the point that I am trying to make is that it can more successfully be used against us while we currently have no means to defend ourselves in the MSM.

    147. Dr Jim says:

      “KEEP THIS SITE SOMEWHERE YOUR GRANNY COULD READ”
      WE’RE LUCKY TO HAVE IT,MODERATE WHAT YOU HAVE TO SAY,OTHERS ARE WATCHING,KEEP US ABOVE THE LEVEL OF THE OPPOSITION, I DONT MEAN TO LECTURE, BUT I THINK YOU KNOW WHAT I’M SAYING

    148. Fred says:

      Do the Scottish people a big favour and solve the conundrum of the West Lothian Question at the same time by booting Curran, Davidson, Murphy, plus the Alexander Ugly Sisters et al, out of Westminster at the general election. 🙂

    149. Jim McIntosh says:

      @ken500

      I don’t give a toss that Ian Wood gives millions to Africa or anywhere else. Pro rata I’ll bet I give more money to charity than he does. I care that the NO campaign used his intervention to rubbish figures presented by the SG (even although they were his own figures).

      So although I’ve never sworn on this site in over 18 months, you shut the fuck up.

    150. James123 says:

      @Dr Jim

      Something else you should add to your list, please do not use cap locks.

    151. Paul Murphy says:

      @desimond

      I like the analogy. We’re only 4 days in though! No honeymoon period at all.

      This is the equivalent of closing the door, turning round to be punched in the face, chained up and made to watch while you partner shags the neighbours.

    152. With the more tax raising powers to the SG I hope they tax the middle classes and rich more only.

      @Ken 500 – Ian Wood is a lying scumbag! now you STFU.

    153. David says:

      Right ive got something to say those who are both raging at it all and to those who are perhaps losing heart –

      We were never going to be allowed to walk away with trillions of pounds worth of oil. Ok? Even if this referendum had gone to YES then the political and financial elite would have done everything in their power to bankrupt Scotland and then retake control of us with a ‘we told you so’. For example the APPLE corporation alone is about twice the size of Scotland. The global banking cartel would have set to work on us and that would have been the end.

      Now that sounds incredibly negative until you take into consideration what has happened.

      We got a NO vote this time around and because of that we are mobilizing into a peoples movement – trying to organize our own banks, broadcasting etc. We are increasing our awareness and becoming less naive about how the world works. Most importantly – we are becoming a leaderless movement, which is the most unstoppable of all organisations.

      The fact that ANYBODY was surprised by the media tactics in the referendum and of the actions of Westminster shows that people need to be educated on how the world really works and not on the fluffy little bubble that many still seem to believe we live in.

      That education is being provided now. When we do get independence we will be politically hardened, aware of the true nature of the global financial system and the predatory institutions that use it to their profit and to the enslavement of everyone else. We will not just be a nation – we will be real culture, a society with our own tools to make things happen the way we want them to happen even before we get official independence.

      We have a precedent already in Iceland. A country whose people rejected the banks and their political puppets and are now making their country work for them.

      We can do away with food banks and get our local councils to allow pieces of unused land in cities to be utilized for food production. Imagine what statement we would be making – we dont have food banks, we have public farms. So stick your capitalist control of food right up your arse!

      The possibilities are endless particularly if we have a people friendly party in Holyrood with the clout to defend the people from Westminster.

      But what you need to do is take a deep breath and understand that this is a process. We are not going to be able to lash out and get things the way we want. The beast that is Westminster (and the forces behind that institution) will only be slowly beaten by a concentrated effort of self betterment for the people of Scotland in the realms of politics, constitutional reform, societal awareness, charity, application of technology for social well being, education (political, economic and otherwise) and many others. We must relax and focus and take the opportunities that come. We must become the country we want to see without looking for permission first.

      We must reach out to others in the U.K also, we must be sharing ideas with our English, Welsh and Irish neighbors and the more informed of them will be our allies as they have been for centuries. Nothing will wake up the masses more than a quiet, peaceful revolution that educates the people and provides for the destitute.

      Revolution in the 21st century doesnt involve arms. Ballot boxes cannot be trusted either (as we have seen) – it involves doing things a different and better way.

    154. Robert Peffers says:

      @Achnababan says: 23 September, 2014 at 8:43 am:
      “On the subject of communication – I feel the SNP leadership are also guilty of talking ‘to’ journalists rather than talking ‘through’ journalists.!

      Balderdash, Achnababan, no one in Scotland gets the choice of speaking either to or through the Scottish media. This is the second post on this topic where you have accused the SNP and I’ll assume for the moment you are just misled and hope you are not an enemy within.

      Here is a perfect example of how no one in Scotland gets to choose how the totally Westminster Establishment funded and controlled media act exactly as they are ordered to by their Westminster masters.

      It begins with a BBC edited news item reporting upon a Press Conference for the International Press Brigade. The BBC’s Nick Robinson is thus only a member of that Press Brigade in the audience. The BBC news Item is followed by an unedited video clip taken from that part of the conference. It shows Nick Robinson not only being very aggressive towards the independence movement but heckling the First Minister before the World’s Press Corp. It shows that the claim he got no answer is a total lie for the FM spends several minutes demolishing Robinson before the International press corp.Yet the BBC felt confident they could tell the complete opposite story and get away with it.

      Sadly the BBC were right for not a single MSM outlet has exposed the BBC for what they are.

      Here’s the link<(correctly posted this time, I hope), Sorry Rev Stu!

      youtube.com/watch?v=Ug5q0jfRz68

    155. Robert Louis says:

      3 important points.

      1. Demand independence, and you might just get devo nano. (That folks is actually what has JUST happened).

      2. Ask for devo max, and you will get nothing. We all know what devo max is, but the BBC and mainstream media will misrepresent it – just as they did during the referendum campaign. It will become vague, and diluted.

      3. Only a quest for independence keeps the attention of London, anything less, will just be ignored.

      If we or the SNP decide now to talk of devo max, we may as well go and piss in the wind. Our opponents will ridicule us, saying ‘oh first they wanted independence, but now they don’t, now they just want devo max, or something – can’t make up their minds etc..etc..’, and so on. They really will go for the jugular. You either stand for independence or you don’t.

      We have the momentum, so let’s not stop now.

      Let’s stop letting London set the agenda going forward. Independence or nothing – I have no intention of spending years of my life campaigning for independence, to then turn around and say, oh well never mind, let’s have devo max.

      It’s time to fight, not wilt.

      P.S. I am not suggesting another referendum is needed by the way. By gaining a majority of pro indy MP’s, we can essentially remove the mandate from London, and make Scotland ungovernable. Prior to the Scottish Parliament, it was regularly stated by Westminster (rather smugly in fact), that if Scots want independence, they needed to elect a majority of pro indy MP’s in Scotland. THAT is exactly what we will do – whilst also destroying British Labour’s presence in Scotland.

    156. James Dow says:

      Quentin Quale Get over yourself Quentin {cute name} It’s always important to be your self especially when you have an opinion that you want considered seriously. That’s never off topic Quentin just had to use your name again too cute. You need new friends, the one’s you have are far too serious, presuming you have any of course.

    157. john king says:

      RMAC SAYS
      “I never said that”

      Well, without picking on you personally RMAC
      it would be super duper if the people keen to “move on” didnt paint the people who want to learn lesson as conspiracy nuts.

      I do think man landed on the moon,
      JFK Was killed by a lone gunman,(not the mafia)
      There is no such think as the Illuminati
      And Adolf Hitler did indeed die in the bunker,

      jus sayin s’all

    158. mary vasey says:

      It wasn’t just unionists who voted against wood’s ‘memorial’ I did too. I did not want another flipping concrete shopping mall/car-park in the centre of our town, converting beautiful gardens into a concrete wilderness, naw I dinna think so.

    159. Ian Brotherhood says:

      @David (10.53) –

      Hear hear.

    160. mary vasey says:

      Well said David, AYE

    161. Training Day says:

      ‘Let’s stop letting London set the agenda going forward. Independence or nothing – I have no intention of spending years of my life campaigning for independence, to then turn around and say, oh well never mind, let’s have devo max.’

      Well said, RL. The idea that Westminster will ‘grant’ devo max is for the birds. And the idea that we should expend energy campaigning for devo max is even more ludicrous.

    162. gillie says:

      Jim Murphy to replace Johann Lamont.

    163. Maybe last Thursday will lay to rest this “a positive campaign will always beat a negative one” nonsense. It’s horses for courses – some folk need a carrot, others need a stick. The above phrase might apply for an ordinary political election, but this was something else entirely, with no precedent.

      How often did you see a debate where it was brought up that a separate Scotland couldn’t have bailed out the 2 “Scottish banks” and this went totally unchallenged by the Yes side? They should’ve been straight down their throats. We were too happy-clappy.

    164. Luigi says:

      Jim McIntosh says:

      23 September, 2014 at 10:25 am

      Our imperial masters won’t give up easily and I’d say the biggest danger is something along the lines of what Jack Straw was mooting the other day. A vote in WM to stop any further referendums.

      There are many ways to skin a cat. I do agree that the 55+ “baby boomers” are still a big problem, however. Some were undoubtably duped by the three stooges, but the vast majority just stubbornly refuse to budge, even though it is now evident that all younger age groups support independence. I think they could be persuaded to support real devo max (full fiscal autonomy, all powers except defence and foreign affairs). If we unite and push a devo max ticket at the 2015 GE, we could wipe out Scottish Labour.

    165. Achnababan says:

      Robert Peffers.

      Calm down sir! I have been an SNP member for 25 years so I am a friend within. I think you have misunderstood my post

      What I mean is that the SNP communication strategy must be based around the reality of a hostile media. The messaging has to become more direct and less easy to misconstrue by perfidious journalists.

      For example:
      No to Tax
      Yes to Revenues

      Alex Salmond loves political process and enjoyed toying with the media … I think the next SNP leader needs to be more forthright and determined.

      Right now they need to let people know in no uncertain terms that the devo powers on offer are a poisoned chalice! Stop pussy footing around with Brian Taylor and his ilk!

    166. ScottieDog says:

      If there is going to be a new scottish combined party we need to start looking ahead – not fighting with each other. We need to show how woeful the uk parties are.

      For instance, we just saw today that osborne’s forecast for the national debt was way out – an increase not decrease shows that the austerity policies aren’t working. More importantly labour are going to adopt these policies.

    167. Robert Louis says:

      James Dow,

      Jim Dow,

      Firstly, James Dow (Alias:Jim Dow) of Melbourne Australia, telling people on here to “piss off”, is pretty extreme – maybe you should apologise.

      Secondly, James Dow of Melbourne Australia, some people use an alias for many, many quite valid reasons – this does not imply they are not genuine.

      Thirdly, James Dow of Melbourne Australia, grow up.

    168. Capella says:

      Overcame a lifetime of resistance to joining any political party, especially one with “national” in the title, and joined the SNP yesterday. I thought AS speech to his Constitueny Association was excellent and when I saw the appallingly bilious MSM front pages the next day my mind was made up. We must support whichever group we can.
      These people, like Stu, are on the front line and viciously attacked by the political elite and their corporate allies. That’s not the kind of country I want to live in. If we want change we have to make it ourselves.
      As Andy Murray said “Let’s do this”!

    169. Bugger (the Panda) says:

      48,602 and still climbing

      How many Tories are there in the UK?

    170. Ken500 says:

      The majority vote for the UTG project. Democracy,

    171. Nana Smith says:

      Aye the knives are being sharpened at the labour conference. Who’s for the chop?

      Just took a ganders at Ed Millie’s face and its a grim picture.

    172. Craig P says:

      Labour and the Tories will shaft Scotland financially but rather than exposing it, here is what the mainstream media will do. They will trot out platitudes about how wonderfully devo maxy it all is and how clever the electorate were in staying in the union and wringing concessions from Westminster, and then heap black shame on the SNP Government for cutting funding to x, y & z.

      All we can do is bang on to our friends and family – in as dispassionate an unalienating way as possible – about what is really happening. And then once we’ve planted the possibility in people’s heads, we need to hope for a BBC documentary along the lines of Diomhair, as many won’t actually believe the UK Government is shafting them until they hear it from the BBC.

    173. yesindyref2 says:

      Ian Wood said on BBC in 2012 that there were up to 25 billion barrels of oil to be recovered, yet shortly before the referendum he says that there are only 15 to 16.5 billion barrels. This is despite advances in recovery, and his own report in Feb / March that moving the regulator to Aberdeen will help sharing and increase the recovery because of allowing small players more access.

      Forked tongue.

    174. Bugger (the Panda) says:

      AHA

      Douglas Carswell, the Conservative MP, has previously warned that the party is “haemorrhaging” members because of David Cameron and his “remote clique” at Westminster.

      The party had earlier this year refused to release the figures amid claims that the number may have fallen below 100,000.

      Membership of both the Labour and Liberal Democrat parties has fallen in recent years.

      However, with a membership of around 187,537, Labour’s numbers are much better than their Conservative rivals.

      So folks, that is it 50,000 to the SNP and less that 100,000 to the UK’s Tories.

      Not long now.

    175. Robert Louis says:

      Scottie dog,

      Very well said. It seems to me there are quite a few false flag operatives on here, trying to sow division, and arguments – calling No voters ("Tractor" - Ed)s and so on. It’s all designed to cause arguments.

      Fortunately, most can see through it.

    176. Jim McIntosh says:

      @Robert Louis

      I agree with you to some extent, but as I pointed out above, with over 1.4 million voters having made up their mind to vote NO over a year ago we aren’t going to get a majority of indy MPs elected on a UDI platform in the near future.

      Surely better to get them in there first with a devo-max manifesto. Assuming they are elected, if we get devo-max all the better for when indy comes. If devo-max powers are blocked, we then go to the electorate at the next election and say, ‘look we’re wasting our time here, we need independence’.

      It’s a medium to long game – and some of us might not be here to see it, but I see us independent in 10 years at the outside. That might seem depressing, because of what was almost in our grasp, but next time we will have 70%+ of the population behind us making the transition within the country easier.

    177. SNP and Green Party Policy has NOT altered.
      Both party policies advocate Independence via a referendum.
      Clear and simple.

      When SNP WON a majority in Govt in 2011- I wrote to AS proposing he submit a “Unilateral Declaration of Independence” – only to be informed that the Policy was Indy Ref.

      Having voted all my life for SNP – the sole route to Indy available back in the 60`s – I took a conscious decision NEVER TO JOIN any political party.

      SNP Policy can only be changed at party conference.
      Any proposal for “UDI” must follow procedure and will not be acceptable at this year`s conf.because it`s too late in the conf cycle.

      Emergency Procedures not withstanding.?

    178. Iain Gray's Subway Lament says:

      Anyone who thinks we can start demanding Indy 5 days after a No clearly has their head up their arse.

      Granted, some are relatively new to campaigning and don’t realise just how long it took to even get this far but they need to calm the fuck down.

      We now look to 2015 and booting as many of the westminster unionist liars out as we can and it’s going to be a great many of them. 😉

      So have a glance at the SNP and Green membership soaring for those who inexplicably think we don’t know what we’re doing. Pretty spectacular endorsement of what got us here in the first place, is it not?

    179. JLT says:

      Here comes the pain …but hopefully, this will also drive those who voted ‘No’ towards the ‘Yes’ camp. Can still see a new referendum being called if we can barnstorm the Scottish Parliament in 2016.

      It ain’t over!

    180. Roger says:

      @Dave Sammy Wilson is DUP….as friendly to an independent Scotland as is the Orange Order (In fact, Sammy is a member). Dismiss him and his rants, in other words.

    181. Ken500 says:

      As FM protocol require that the Press etc is not criticised. A free Press. FM has duties which are consolidatary. They represent the whole Nation. A FM can’t break rules of protocol.

    182. Craig P says:

      Bugger (the Panda) says:

      48,602 and still climbing
      How many Tories are there in the UK?

      130,000. It would be highly unlikely to even get near that, unless the mysterious process of going viral happens (or we can persuade some of the many disappointed expats to join). A doubling of the pre-referendum membership to 50,000 is about to happen though.

    183. heedtracker says:

      @ Ken500, the whole Ian Wood point here is the fact on the one hand he told young people at the end of last year to invest their future in the now UK oil and gas expro industry.

      And then same super rich maniac tells same young people that the oil and gas he said would give them a job for life will peak in 16 years and be gone soon after.

      Ian Wood takes his place in that historic parcel of rogues that sold their country for cash or as the say the Sunday Post puts it

      “During an interview with EnergyVoice.com, Sir Ian contradicted the Scottish Government’s own figures for remaining North Sea resources and tax income.

      He said that even with further tax breaks and less complex regulation in the North Sea, only a further 15-16.5 billion barrels of oil equivalent (boe) are likely to be recovered.

      The Scottish Government has been using 24 billion boe as its central prediction, which is 45-60% above Sir Ian’s estimate.

      Sir Ian also believes the Scottish Government’s central prediction of £7 billion per annum tax income from oil and gas over the next five years is £2 billion per annum too high. This difference represents £370 less for every person in Scotland every year.”

      If there’s a circle in hell for UKOK liars and kleptomaniacs, its going to be packed out

    184. seanair says:

      O/T but there you are. DotScot General Release today for those who want to have a Scottish domain, with DotScot e-mail addresse to follow soon.
      Not on BBC of course, there’s been a barn fire somewhere.

    185. John Lyons says:

      Panda, where you seeing this? I can’t find it on SNP.org….

    186. msean says:

      I saw a video of a guy after the referendum saying basically bring on your cuts,we voted for it. I agree, the Scottish Government has protected Scotland very well,too well in actual fact. Those who voted no are about to receive a shock.Jobs will eventually have to go and only then will they realise what they have done.

      Unfortunately,these cuts will take out yes voters as well in the process.

    187. JLT says:

      Yep, here comes the pain …hopefully, more and more No voters will now move towards Yes once the cuts bite in. If we can take the Parliament in 2016, then a I believe a new referendum will be called.

    188. PostmanPat says:

      That source article is behind the Times paywall so people won’t read the full text. Here is an excerpt:

      “A source at No 10 said that Westminster would keep to its promise to retain the formula, but added that it would reduce as Scotland gained more fiscal powers under devolution.
      “It’s not a change to the Barnett formula per se,” said the source. “But the more control a devolved administration has over its ability to raise and spend funds, the proportion subject to the Barnett formula decreases.”

      A spokesman for John Swinney, the Scottish finance minister, said that the suggestion that Barnett funding should be cut to offset any new financial powers “simply underlines how modest the Westminster parties’ proposals are”.

      The Conservatives’ change in tone followed a meeting to discuss English home rule convened by David Cameron at Chequers at which some MPs voiced discontent about Barnett.

      “Some vehemently dislike the fact that Scots get more than the English,” said one source. “The majority present agreed that a promise is a promise, but the key to it is fiscal devolution. Let them set their own rate of income tax and keep that tax and a bit extra, then the Barnett formula doesn’t apply to a greater sum of money any more.””

      So Scotland will get a smaller block grant as it gets its own tax raising powers to earn money from income tax directly. Complaining about that is like complaining that your Jobseekers’ Allowance stops when you get a job. Also, you’ve got the be fair.

      Please do not react to headlines – read the source article yourself and any sources that it relies on in turn, if need be.

      There are no grounds currently, I believe, for saying the three leaders have reneged on their vows. What is it exactly that commenters think they have done that breaks the pledge?

      The furore regarding UK Labour’s claims that the NHS is under threat, with people accusing them of having lied last week when they said that independence was not the only way to protect the NHS – misplaced. UK Labour were referring to NHS England and Wales. NHS Scotland is devolved and whether or not it is privatised is up to the Scottish government.

      Finally, the Clair oil field – nobody was keeping it a secret. Anyone who bothered to read Sir Ian Wood’s report would have seen it in there.

    189. cearc says:

      James Dow,

      We tried that one night months ago but then no one could remember who was who.

      Just recently, I mentioned someone who we had met, didn’t seem to be posting anymore to another poster (face to face, not online). He assured me that the person was still posting but under their own name but he couldn’t remember the name.

    190. Why is it acceptable for westmonster to adopt a position of ‘Only Kidding’ whilst Scotland are expected to remain honourable. There may be the letter of the law but there is also the spirit of the law. For to long we have accepted our politicians saying one thing and delivering another. The referendom was about Scotland’s asperations.

      Like most people I would like to see progress in England, Wales and Northern Ireland too although it is perhaps time for them to grow a pair and hold their political class to a standard where they earn the ‘Right honourable’ that is bestowed often without merit.

    191. Craig P says:

      Interesting to read that Conservative membership might now be under 100,000! I suppose that is possible – the average age of Conservative party members must be over 65, and climbing.

    192. Ken500 says:

      The majority were going to vote YES. 60%. 25% of the No voters changed their mind in the last week. After the illegal, lying appeals from Cameron and Brown. Purdah.

      Vote the Unionist out so they can’t illegally lie again. They will have no mandate to do anything in/to Scotland. Independence by another avenue.

    193. Ceevee25 says:

      3 no voters vs me at work. Reasons for no were 1. We’ve a,ways had the union( check your history, no we haven’t) 2. A didnae want it( it’s not a free ice cream,ffs)3. Didn’t agree with 16 year olds getting the vote, tried to rig it to get a win. There is no changing the minds of these three people. Some arguments make no sense and those who hold them dear will listen to no sense. I suspect that they won’t change UNTIL they are hit in the pocket. When they are I suspect that “told you so” won’t help so remember to be inclusive to the 55.

    194. bookie from hell says:

      guy on sky news

      cruise misslies are very accurate

      while reports on a Syrian family wiped out

    195. captkrik says:

      These people have no limits do they? how about another inref or just straight out declare independece

    196. fred blogger says:

      david
      agreed!
      we must disentangle ourselves from as much external control freakery as is possible, this will take time, but it will create a stronger and stronger foundation for indy.
      ie the less corporate control over scotland the better, slowly but surely remove it’s power.
      i like the work of the jimmy reid foundation, as it makes an awful lot of sense.

    197. Davy says:

      Their appears to be a new affliction going around, its called ” it wisn’a me “, for some strange reason no-one I have spoken to voted NO, absolutely no one.

      Well apart from my mother, but it was my wife who spoke to her, and after the word pension cut the conversation and phone call short.

      But please watch out for this strange affliction it may be spreading.

    198. Fiona says:

      re: the Barnett formula

      I do not see hard information about what is proposed.

      As I understand it there are two possibilities at least

      On the one hand some of the income tax raised in Scotland would be kept in Scotland: then the barnett formula grant would be reduced pound for pound and there would be no net change. That renders the income tax raising powers which would be devolved meaningless. Income tax would have to be set at the same rate as elsewhere and that is what happened with the ostensible tax raising powers the Scottish government had in the past

      On the other hand what is being whipped up is resentment about higher public spending in Scotland than elsewhere. This is specifically targeted at Scotland although there are disparities between english regions as well. It seems to me that resentment can only be assuaged by reducing public spending in Scotland to the english average. That would entail reducing the barnett grant by more than the amount raised from Scottish income tax

      This second seems to me to be the more likely outcome

    199. IheartScotland says:

      As gutted as I feel just now, the one thing I feel is that we never appealed to the small ‘c’ conservatives in Scotland. They won’t vote for david cameron , but, they won’t vote for a socialist Scotland either. We need to reach everyone.

    200. Ken500 says:

      Scotland was going to vote YES 60%. The game changer was Unionists Cameron and Brown who decided to illegally tell lies to retain their tax evading wealth.

      It was not the over 55’s. It was not the 18- 24, it was not the BBC/Press. It was lying Unionists. Just vote them out. Scotland has Independence.

    201. Jim says:

      @Kevin
      We will do what we are told, that’s. what the NO’s wanted , now they will reap the shit they’ve sown
      ____
      We are all going to reap the shit they have sown, not only no voters.

    202. Dave says:

      I’m 62 and a yes person but I didn’t get a vote because I live in England. I’m coming home in the next couple of years and I was looking forward to returning to an Independant Scotland and my Scottish passport, maybe after the vote to leave EU we can try again.

      More should be made of the oil reserves under the Firth of Clyde which Westminster stops us from exploiting. More of getting rid of APD to encourage tourism. And more on a Scottish currency whatever its called tied to Sterling until there are enough reserves to go it alone.

      BTW why not set-up a Scottish National Oil company as they have in Norway and a Scottish National Energy Company that can compete with the Big 6 for gas and electricity comsumers if priced right you can in effect nationalise energy supply by pricing the others out of the market and even start selling in England.

      Now is the time to get started so we are ready for these guys next time round.

      One can dream.

    203. Ken500 says:

      The whole Ian Wood thing is a diversion. A Press diversion. Do not fall for it.

    204. goulashman says:

      Some comment is getting acerbic and belligerent: by all means let’s debate, discuss – passionately; but let’s not fall into the mistake of splintering our new found common politic. Those without a voice are depending on us. let’s keep it together ….. for Scotland’s sake … for hope’s sake.

    205. Graham says:

      Just read a couple of postings on Derek Bateman’s blog about a suggestion for an Independence Think Tank to fight back against all the lies. We need to be united, so it could be a way forward. 2 Posts by Broadbield here: http://derekbateman.co.uk/2014/09/22/by-another-road/#comment-28117

    206. G H Graham says:

      SNP-YES Event

      Host: John Swinney MSP

      Location: Moncreiffe Suite, Salutation Hotel, Perth

      Time & date: 1pm to 4:30pm, Sunday 28th September 2014

      Terms: open to anyone

      Purpose: —–How to keep the YES vision moving
      ——————Continuing to engage all YES campaigners

      e-mail andrewparrott57 [at] hotmail [dot] com to confirm your attendance for seating & free buffet purposes

    207. Ken500 says:

      The Press like to divide and rule and create diversions. It lines their pockets and wastes folk’s time.

    208. Ian Brotherhood says:

      Did someone say that Murphy has replaced Lamont?

    209. heedtracker says:

      All Sir Ian Wood chat to the BBC in Scotland less a year ago but 10 months is a long time in teanGB

      “Without overdramatising that, I believe we’ll have North Sea oil in reasonably strong shape for the next 20 or 30 years – that’s a long time.

      “But what we mustn’t do is wait until 25 years’ time when it starts going down and say ‘Oh god, what are we going to do now? – we’d better start investing’.

      ‘Maximising recovery’
      “We’ve produced 41 billion barrels,” he said. “If you look ahead, we could still produce another 25 billion barrels – at $100 a barrel, that’s $2,500bn.

      “If we don’t get it right, we’ll produce about half that – we could lose $1,250bn of economic contribution to the UK

      “We really have to have the UK government focused on maximising recovery and what’s still to come from the North Sea.

      “They are beginning to recognise that.

      Also Ken500, the maniac didn’t want to pedestrianise Aberdeen. He wanted to gut the heart of my home city and build some kind of giant shopping mall.

      He failed, but only by chance though and instead of £50mn going to this horrific vanity project, it went to charity instead. I lie, it stayed in Sir Ian’s multi billion cash mountain.

      Rule Britannia

    210. fred blogger says:

      Ken500
      “Just vote them out. Scotland has Independence.”
      yes we must!

    211. Luigi says:

      Most people are a bit quiet today, but there are still a few smug NO voters going around the workplace, laughing how certain people are not speaking to them.

      They still cannot see what’s coming down the track at breakneck speed.

      Incredible.

    212. Proud Cybernat says:

      A question: if Scotland returns a majority of Indy Alliance MPS in May 2015 GE and they declare UDI, will the EU, NATO, UN etc recognise this as a legitimate vote? It seems to me that these bodies will only recognise the vote if Westminster agrees. Would this not then lock Scotland out of the EU etc (ala Kosovo)?

    213. IheartScotland says:

      @WrinkleyReborn,
      It’s history, but the Yes campaign was too ‘nice’.
      Trouble is that they had to be given that us nationalists were considered a rabid small minority. 45% is worthy of respect, it’s a different ball game now.

    214. Iain Gray's Subway Lament says:

      It would be glorious and indeed utterly hilarious if on the same day wee Ed Miliband made his big speech the SNP membership also hit 50,000.

      Can you imagine the blind panic, fear and utter terror from the ‘scottish’ labour contingent at the labour conference right now?

      Gerrriitriightupye! 😀

    215. Nana Smith says:

      Peter Murrell latest re snp membership…

      Roaring through 23,000 new @theSNP members, now 48,642 of us and counting. Be part of it and help make a difference: https://my.snp.org/join

    216. Mosstrooper says:

      @ IheartScotland

      Yep, we’re still here but this time we’re angry.

    217. Luigi says:

      I know you fellow 45’ers hardly need any more inspiration to keep the fight going, but here is some icing for you:

      Picture a smug, little John McTernan on TV at the weekend, when quizzed by a reporter if there would be another independence referendum in 20 years.

      “Ah yes, but by then, half the oil will be gone so it will be too late!”

      Haw Haw Haw.

    218. Tamson says:

      Rev, if I remember correctly, there were pills after the device referendum were more people claimed to have voted Yes than actually did. How about a crowd-funded poll to demonstrate the opposite effect occurring now? Along with some questions analysing the reasons for voting.

    219. Iain Gray's Subway Lament says:

      The Eggman cometh!

      PANIC breaks out at Labour conf!! 😀

      Labour in crisis in Scotland: Leadership in-fighting erupts with Jim Murphy in poll position to replace Johann Lamont

      Rumours swirl at party conference that Scottish leader Lamont will quit

      Comes just days after the historic referendum rejecting independence

      Jim Murphy, who toured 100 towns during campaign, on course for job

      http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2766342/Labour-crisis-Scotland-Leadership-fighting-erupts-Jim-Murphy-poll-position-replace-Johann-Lamont.html

    220. Robert Peffers says:

      @Achnababan says: 23 September, 2014 at 11:05 am:

      “Calm down sir!”

      Whatever makes you imagine I am anything but calm?

      “I think you have misunderstood my post”

      I assure you I have no problems comprehending exactly what I read. If I have not understood exactly what you meant then perhaps the fault is yours and not mine.

      “What I mean is that the SNP communication strategy must be based around the reality of a hostile media. The messaging has to become more direct and less easy to misconstrue by perfidious journalists.”

      As I pointed out already, I went to the considerable bother to downloading the two opposing video clips, and without editing the actual two clips, making the short video and then uploading the complete clip back up to YouTube in order to make the salient point that no matter what the message, no matter its content and no matter its intent the BBC and Westminster controlled media of all types can, has and will continue to propagate the message as they wish it to be and not as the SNP, or any other organ the Westminster Establishment considers to be an enemy of the Establishment, intend it to be.
      “For example:
      No to Tax
      Yes to Revenues

      Tell me,Achnababa, just what do you imagine I, personally, could do with a bit of video editing to any statement of, “No to Tax – Yes to Revenues”? Remember I’m just a life-long amateur and the BBC and MSM are vastly resourced professionals? Also they are funded my The Establishment.

      “Right now they need to let people know in no uncertain terms that the devo powers on offer are a poisoned chalice! Stop pussy footing around with Brian Taylor and his ilk!

      Going to tell us all just how you imagine the SNP, or indeed the entire Independence Movement are going to achieve that when the Westminster Establishment controls ALL the media except the social media on-line and even there where we are greatly outnumbered by the combined English, Welsh, Northern Irish and even the Scottish anti-independence people on-line social media?

      Witness what they have just done to Andy Murray’s declaration of supporting independence. Free speech is, as far as the Establishment is concerned, only free if you are on their side.

      There is only one answer – we must have a media outlet that attracts the Scottish people of all political shades to listen/view the truth. Where in Scotland would that be allowed to exist by the Establishment? We cannot even control who gets the revenue from out own Scottish waters. Witness the 6,000 sq mls of Scottish waters grabbed by the establishment and notice who was the authors of that theft.

    221. Tamson says:

      Polls and devolution, obviously. Sorry

    222. balaaargh says:

      @Ian brotherhood,

      Murphy can’t replace lamont. This is the BLAB in Scotland, they would need to have a vote, inform the unions, Etc. It’s not like they can behave undemocratically with their members!

      Also, in order to go head to head with his biggest Scottish rival, he would have go to Holyrood. Someone would have to stand down as he couldn’t added to the list which means a by-election. The SNP now have an extra 20K pairs of legs to walk the streets and get the message out. IMO, BLAB would never risk it. There is no such thing as a safe seat.

    223. Chris Baxter says:

      We don’t need to be especially radical. 45% supported Independence as it was. All that’s required is to keep to the same strategy, and the UK Government will do all that’s required to shift a good few percent.

      Stay steady, stay true, and stay honest, and stay progressive.

      The Barnett formula being cut will push a few more percent.

      A 2015 Tory/UKIP will push a few more percent our way.

      A 2017 EU out vote will push even more percent our way.

      They’ll muck it up themselves. Let them.

    224. HandandShrimp says:

      When will Murphy replace Lamont, we don’t go to the polls until May 16 or is he simply replacing as Leader of North Britain Labour and staying at Westminster?

    225. Macandroid says:

      @ Shuggy

      Agree with more careful targeting of those who think they have more to lose with independence, e.g. fracking, potential collapse of UK economy, etc.

    226. IheartScotland says:

      We need everyone, working class in my family voted Yes. Middle class voted no. It’s not about class or money, the way forward is not about apportioning blame, it’s about an independent decent Scotland.

    227. Diane says:

      Tackety Beets – had a mesaage from an old work colleague of mine over the weekend saying we should target “heavy hearted No’s” of which he himself was one. Concerns were that the whole economic outlook hadn’t been explained properly and he wasn’t willing to take that leap of faith. Don’t necessarily agree with him but just passing on info which may prove useful.

    228. Diane says:

      Tackety Beets – had a message from an old work colleague of mine over the weekend saying we should target “heavy hearted No’s” of which he himself was one. Concerns were that the whole economic outlook hadn’t been explained properly and he wasn’t willing to take that leap of faith. Don’t necessarily agree with him but just passing on info which may prove useful.

    229. seanair says:

      Murphy/Lamont–a scenario
      Murphy ousts Lamont but has to get a seat in Holyrood. Some numpty SLAB MSP in a “safe seat” stands down (on promise of a peerage or something). Election held, SNP throws everything into the fight and wins because the voters understand they are being taken for granted. Murphy limps off back to Westminster.
      Unlikely, but would be great.

    230. Ghillie Mackay says:

      It is unfolding exactly as we all predicted.

      A lot of NO voters won’t even feel a ripple of the austerity that will ravage through those who are already hurting.

      Which makes those who declare regret all the more welcome. It takes incredible courage to admit mistakes rather than cover them up. I still tell my children that we learn more from our mistakes than we do from our successes.

      So make room, plenty of room! The NO’s are coming over!

    231. Chic McGregor says:

      Don’t see much point in comparing absolute membership numbers with the Tories. Scotland to rUK ratio is about 1:12 which in itself is one of the key reasons we need independence.

      On a pro rata basis the SNP already has a higher membership than Labour, Conservative and LibDem memberships combined.

    232. piggy says:

      The NO voters don’t appear to be thinkers.

      Happy for the same old crap to be dished out.

      Westminster don’t think either.

      Creative thought = 0

      Thinking is not permitted.

    233. Robert Louis says:

      SNP membership now very close to double since 19th Sept.

      The fight goes on.

      Jim McIntosh,

      I understand your points, but let’s be clear, I didn’t suggest MP’s standing on a UDI ticket. I just pointed out that other countries have gone down similar routes, by effectively removing any perceived legitimacy from another Government. That is perfectly achievable. It adds even more pressure to London, making things harder, and moving the debate forward. Step by step, but without going backwards to campaigning for devo max.

      Devo max may ultimately be a partial step in the process, but we should NEVER now start going backwards and actually asking for it. Never lower your expectations, or your opponents will do likewise.

      Think of it as a selling situation. If I am selling my car, and ask for 10k, the buyer will suggest 5k, and we meet in the middle at 7.5k. If however, I had started at 7.5K, we would meet in the middle at 5K. In bargaining you must ALWAYS ask for more than you will be prepared to accept. This is a fundamental point.

      I have been involved with the independence movement a very long time (I’m 52), and have also been in the SNP for quite some time, so I know from experience, the gradualist route did NOT ever kindle any kind of fire in the population of Scotland, like we are seeing now – so why go back to something that didn’t work now?.

      The SNP now have an entire younger generation who are fired up, excited, committed and want independence. A devo max demand return to gradualism will achieve nothing except those young people will feel betrayed, and leave.

      If nothing else during the campaign we showed that there is no positive case for the union. None at all. With each passing day, NO voters are seeing just how much they have been betrayed. The whole agenda has moved on, yet some seem to think we can return to the 80’s, and be nice and wait another 10 years. That is lovely, but it’s soooo old school and completely out of touch with how people feel.

      The whole debate has changed. Our Young people are fully engaged and want action. Many are looking to the SNP for leadership.

      If you start seeking devo max now, London will laugh in your face.

      We really do have the momentum, we can either continue to set the independence agenda and push, push, push forward with every election, or we can undo the progress so far, and just go home wittering about devo max, because somebody said (with not one fact) ‘the people haven’t the stomach for independence’.

      You do realise we only lost by 5%?

      PS, Please do note my point about devo max in bold. It may be a step on the way, but it is NOT what we should seek.

    234. Stuart Murray says:

      Gore Vidal – “When the American people can’t spot stupid people, the country’s out of business.”

      Rammstein –
      “We’re all living in America,
      Coca-Cola, sometimes WAR,
      We’re all living in America,
      Amerika, Amerika.”

    235. liz says:

      My last point on the vote ‘fixing’ – it may have happened it also may not have happened. The point is we can neither prove nor disprove therefore we would be wasting our time and energy trying to get this solved.

      I tend to read every post on here but sometimes I think others just keep posting their own POV and do not engage with other posters.

      @James Caithness – I agree and I have said it a couple of times, the conspiracy theory suits some folks’ purposes in sending us off down a bind alley.

      By all means those who still believe it – do something about it but stop trying to convince others to join you – we have much more important work to do.

      Despite all the blitz of propaganda and scare stories, we had 45% voting Yes that is an achievement which we need to build on.

    236. Iain Gray's Subway Lament says:

      @HandandShrimp

      “or is he simply replacing as Leader of North Britain Labour and staying at Westminster?”

      Well Smurf clearly wants his doggie biscuits and treats from wee Ed Miliband after the No.

      So I suspect it’s all positioning for some kind of job and goodies.

      Perhaps he will be named “Prime Eggmaster of Labour Scotland” and preside imperiously over the SLAB plebs and third-raters like Lamont, while finally getting them to learn proper respect for their westminster overlords. 😉

    237. highseastim says:

      It will be interesting to hear the whingeing from the 70%+ of the pensioners who voted no, when they lose their winter allowance and their free bus travel to bring them in line with their counterparts “down souf”!!I will feel the utmost sadness for the 20%+ who voted yes, but the rest can “whistle dixie” for me.

    238. Free Scotland says:

      Looking at the remaining dates linked to the VOW, I am wondering why they chose Halloween for the next one. St. Andrew’s Day and Burns’ Night have been chosen as a patronising gesture to all whose mentality has no greater depth than Blair McDougall’s. And finally:

      7th May – anniversary of the 1913 decision by the British House of Commons to reject women’s right to vote.

    239. fred blogger says:

      IheartScotland
      what do we say to people who voted no, so as we can convince them to say yes?
      we have to know what happened, and what we need to do to correct it.
      it’s about apportioning cause, not blame!

    240. Robert Peffers says:

      @Stewart fae stoney says: 23 September, 2014 at 8:53 am:

      “”The 55% who betrayed their country should dig deep into their pockets and make up the difference of what the shortfall”.

      Oh! Come on, Stewart. You are missing the point by a country mile.

      As far as such as J.K.R are concerned they have already dipped deep into their pockets to help out their, “Country”. As far as these people are concerned the United Kingdom is not a bipartite Kingdom but is in fact a single state/country ruled over by the master race of England from the de facto parliament of England at Westminster who are generously devolving the country of England’s powers to their ungreatful subservient three regions parliaments.

      Remember that David Mundell let the Establishment’s cat out of the bag and publically stated, “The Treaty of Union extinguished the Kingdom of Scotland and renamed the Kingdom of England as, “The United Kingdom”. He could not have made the Establishment’s mantra more clear.

    241. Robert Louis says:

      If Murphy is replacing Lamont, then it will be the best start possible for whoever the new FM is.

      Murphy has such an extensive back catalogue of shame, it will make FMQ’s fun again.

      Joy, joy, joy. 🙂

    242. Juteman says:

      Parliament being recalled to discuss military action in the middle east?

    243. Macart says:

      @RL

      Softly softly. 🙂

      Let’s make Scotland ungovernable for the beggars. The more pro independence party representatives we put in both parliaments, the more we keep the momentum going.

      Let them make all the mistakes and break or fudge the pledges.

      Westminster simply can’t help being Westminster. 😉

    244. STARLAW says:

      Murphy could be the head of Scottish labour, no requirement to be at Holyrood the deputy head An,Ass is at Wastminster

    245. Cal says:

      Ian Grey’s Subway Lament

      Please don’t link directly to newspaper websites. Especially the bloody Daily Mirror! Starve them of clicks and starve them of advertising revenue. Use https://archive.is/ It’s dead easy to use. Load up your newspaper article, right click on the address bar and select copy from the drop down which appears. Next load archive.is and paste the address into the red bordered box near the top of the page. Finally, click on the button “submit url” and after a few seconds you’ll have an archived copy of the newspaper article. Use the address of the archived copy in your comment on Wings otherwise I, for one, will not be reading it.

    246. Bugger (the Panda) says:

      @
      Craig P says:

      130,000

      maybe not now?

    247. Cal says:

      Sorry “Daily Mail” and not “Daily Mirror” although the same applies to articles from that rag too.

    248. bookie from hell says:

      BBC asking labour supporters if Gordon brown should return to frontline

      one says

      FM Scotland,back bencher England

      shows you what they think of scotland

    249. Macart says:

      Oh and Mrs M signed up for an SNP membership. The least political person I know has got a real grump on for Westminster parties and their behaviour during the campaign. Fair took my breath away I can tell you. 🙂

    250. Capella says:

      @Jim McIntosh
      That’s the second time you have misquoted the Ashcroft poll findings. Only 62% had always known what they were going to vote before the campaign. That means that nearly 40% didn’t know. 40% of 2m = 800,000.
      Anyone who wants to find out what Ashcroft’s poll says can look it up here:
      http://tinyurl.com/k5x9rvu
      Also, you will see that 25% voted NO because they believed that a NO vote would still mean extra powers for the Scottish Parliament. 25% of 2m votes = 500,000 votes. Well worth letting the NO voters know exactly what extra powers will be conferred on the Scottish Parliament, if any.

    251. Iain Gray's Subway Lament says:

      Laura Kuenssberg ?@bbclaurak 2h

      Subplot at lab conf, pressure on Jim Murphy to take on Scottish leadership – tricky as Lamont in place, but he proved huge worth in indyref

      So.. the plot thickens. (appropriately enough for Labour 🙂 )

      Could it be that Smurf wants back into the shadow cabinet as his reward but wee Ed Miliband has other ideas and wants to put the Eggman on a 1000 day tour to save ‘scottish’ labour from itself and Lamont?

      Can’t see how this ends well if Smurf doesn’t want to do it. Lamont has already been utterly humiliated. She’s dead in the water now. So if Smurf doesn’t replace her now, then exactly who will?

      The time has finally come friends.

      IAIN GRAY TO REPLACE LAMONT!! 😀

      You know it makes sense. The SLAB fightback begins! 😉

    252. Ian Brotherhood says:

      The Murph as leader of the opposition would be great entertainment.

      It would be such a tonic, watching Nicola Sturgeon kicking his bony arse on a weekly basis until next May, at which point we jettison him and his cronies overboard once and for all.

      We want Murph!

      We want Murph!

    253. YESGUY says:

      test

    254. davidb says:

      We are where we are.

      Mistakes are obvious after the fact. Many – myself included – could have done more. We could have visited our parents more for a start.

      The inquests will be going on. Lots of us are joining Yes parties. I for one want to campaign. I’m not joining a Jacobite memorial society or listening to Jimmy Shand records every weekend.

      We have to remember that our fight is for ALL the people who live here. I know many no people who could work out where their salary was coming from without their employer reminding and at times threatening them. In the real world many people use payday loans. There are plenty folks with mortgages too.

      In the post match analysis I would suggest none of us has a hissy fit. We are not going to get all we want. We should be united in one single aim. That our Country is free. That has to transcend everything else. Right or left. Old or young. All races and religions. Everyone has to be included. We did not win partly because of the media. Partly because we were naive. But mostly because a large part of our electorate did not think it was in their interest.

      Join a Yes party. Lets try to achieve our aim with one voice, and when we are finally in full control stress over and over that we will be a democracy. We will in fact probably have a centre right party. A centre left party too probably. And most likely we will be just like every other western country. And Scottish decisions will be made by the people who live here, in a Scottish parliament in Scotland.

    255. liz says:

      The SNP will not be able to maintain their protection of the electorate from the austerity cuts.

      The BBC/BLAB will spin this as punishment from the SNP for voting No.

      We cannot win until the BBC is dead in the water.

    256. YESGUY says:

      Lots of good points here

      It’s obvious we need a plan and for the “newbies” this will take time. The referendum build up lasted over three years , something we should all remember. We can take back Scotland but we will have to wait.

      When the cuts come we don’t gloat , although the odd “i told you so..”c can be forgiven.

      Don’t over look the fantastic turn out of our younger voters. They pounded the streets, tweeted and sang themselves hoarse , only to lose out against the older voters.

      We need to keep them involved and that alone is no easy thing. How many 18-21 year olds look any further than a few weeks.

      James Dow.

      Regarding names and nom-de-plumes . Many of us don’t use our names because it has little show on how we vote. My name is Ricky Duncan but it doesn’t say “YES” or sound Scottish. . Mine Nom is obvious. Names only matter when face to face.

      The pensioners who voted No did so out of fear. We should have been more prepared for them. the Young ones could get the answers to their question on their iPhones. The pens had the BBC.

      Have to say it’s good to see all the regs back. Thanks for not giving up Stu. I might have walked away myself. Thanks to all Wingers for the journey. We have 45% of the peoples support. We can do much more.

      Time to start a new journey. A new campaign. Put the lessons learned away safely for reference and stop arguing for a re-count . We lost . BUT NOT BY MUCH.

      They wanted a solid win. We gave them their worst nightmare. A NEVERENDUM

    257. MJS Dundee says:

      That was round 1. We had an idea but didn’t know exactly what they’d throw at us. Now we know. We also know exactly why the 55 voted no. We now know the battlefield for round 2 and how to shape 99% of the second assault. By throwing them into a panic they’ve revealed their full hand. Round 2 will be vastly better prepared and we go into that with a full-on army instead of a battalion of very good but nevertheless trainees.

      Not to detract from Stu or this site at all where many correct warnings and predictions were made, but this site is not the whole campaign, nor should it be. We’ve much training of the rest of the team to be doing. First big live practise session GE May 2015 – bring it on!????

    258. tombee says:

      Just watching politics special.
      People at the conference are being asked if crash Gordon should be back in main stream labour politics.
      They appear to credit him with high rating. Even suggesting ministerial office.

      So there you go. The man who attempted to frighten the sick, the disabled and those requiring transfusions or transplants. Told lies to pensioners about their pensions, is held in high regard by those attending the Labour party conference.

      It tells you all you need to know about the Labour party.
      By the way one even advocated a ministerial job for him at the treasury. Honestly you couldn’t make it up.

    259. kendomacaroonbar says:

      @Tombee

      I read yesterday, can’t recall which rag, that Gordo should be put forward for a Knighthood. Who *ARE* these people ?

    260. Dcanmore says:

      As for Murphy, Labour definitely want a SLAB leader to go on the telly and not be an national embarrassment. They won the Indyref despite Lamont, not because of her. Lamont is a vote loser and they know it.

      But Labour will do what they always done in a crisis, they will self harm, the knives come out and there’s blood on the carpet then it takes five years for the wounds to heal.

      Another reason to parachute Murphy into the SLAB leadership is to create a Holyrood-Westminster bridge so Miliband and the Shadow cabinet will be able to dictate to the Labourites in Holyrood from London so no more sudden bursts of devo promises and commissions as Lamont tried to force on London (hahaha).

      All Murphy will be is Westminster’s man in Edinburgh.

    261. jackie g says:

      hello folk’s

      i agree with the comments of not apportioning blame to the ‘NO’ voters.

      What we need to do is educate them on the benefits of Independance, i am not saying it would not be easy and of course some we will not swayed no matter what, but surely we can try.?

      As AS said on Sunday i dont care which independance Party you sign up to just ‘Do Something’ anything to keep the spirit you have shown in the last few weeks alive (or words to that effect but you get the gist)

      A lot of the readers of Wings (myself included although i must add that i was never a No voter ever!) have been educated by the YES movement please keep this going.

    262. Nana Smith says:

      @kendomacaroonbar

      I read crash received £300.000 for his part in the NO campaign. Don’t know if its true but if it is then perhaps more should said about it.

    263. chalks says:

      Ken500 – Jesus min, give it a rest about Ian fucking Wood, his wife is a better together activist, or was one, up in Aberdeen. He is not neutral and his comments on Oil (twice) were designed to hammer the vote in Aberdeen, which it did. Loads of people in the oil industry onshore, voted no, because of what this piece of shit said. Now I know you like him, but please be neutral, he is a no voter who used the fact people respect him against us.

      I’ve bitten my tongue long enough, the Yes campaign was a fucking train wreck and if the SNP had been in charge of it from 2 years ago rather than the last 2 months, then we’d have probably won. Yes we had an amazing movement, but in all honesty, passion can only get you so far.

      The Yes Campaign, did not do enough on local issues. We won in the area where Trident is, that says it all, if each yes group in the areas formed a plan to gain the middle class votes then we’d have done better. For instance, I attended yes meetings yet rarely anything was said about cutting offshore taxes to get more drilling in, get smaller companies extracting oil etc. One way to win middle class votes is to tell them they’ll be richer for it, scotland will be richer, I agree with people saying it went too much on the social justice issues.

      Farming, the CAP payments weren’t highlighted nor was the EU In/Out referendum in farming areas….I live in one and I didn’t hear a peep. This goes for pretty much all over scotland as farmers are everywhere.

      Devo-Max should be the thing we are all pushing for, the only problem I can see is getting it through to the 20,000 new members in the SNP who may well try and go for independence.

      I see there are meetings planned etc, but if we pushing for independence right now, we will get no where as we HAVE TO REACH OUT TO 10-20% that voted no because they expect more powers. We aren’t going to get devo max, but they want it, it’s a ways and means of opening their eyes to democracy in this country, i.e. it doesn’t fkn exist.

    264. steve andrews says:

      The Independence argument is over for the time being. It is now about exposing Broon’s lie about Devo Max and Home Rule within the Union. The Broon lies will be exposed, the Labour party will be seen by the electorate to have colluded in the lies and will hopefully be hammered at the next election. The objective now is to replace as many as possible Westminster labour MP’s with MP’s who support Independence and/or Dev Max. Next is to ensure Holyrood has a massive majority of MP’s of all hues supporting Independence. But do not think this be easy – in some areas the No vote was 65%.

    265. IheartScotland says:

      @Fred Blogger,
      The simple answer is the MSM and the EBC.In spite of my cousin and his family voting Yes, my aunt believed the MSM and the EBC and an ill informed cousin voting no.She told my dad she was voting no because she didn’t like A Salmond. I have no idea how to deal with that.

    266. Molly says:

      I’m sorry I don’t agree, I don’t want Mr Murphy anywhere near Holyrood. Can you imagine the scenario ?

      So Nicola Sturgeon , you have just protected the Scottish public from most of the austerity cuts, you’ve reformed land, set up a broadened base for research, protected pens…. “Jim , Jim, why are you so good?

      The Labour bias is such , Mandela would have struggled to get the air time Labour do on our media.

    267. desimond says:

      Bugger (the Panda) says:
      23 September, 2014 at 11:10 am48,602 and still climbing

      How many Tories are there in the UK?

      About 2 million in Scotland according to last weeks vote

    268. Faltdubh says:

      Sorry, nah, bugger it, but JoLa. LOL! HAHAHA.

      What a joke of a political figure. She was not trusted to run BT’s campaign in Scotland. How many times did she appear on any big debate form? None, the odd regional BBC thing once I think.

      Then now in their moment of glory down at their conference, the leader of their party.

      Is not thanked pubically by Ed when announcing names of Labour folk who won their campaign and being utterly humiliated by what seems like Jim Murphy nabbing her job.

    269. liz says:

      @Nana Smith – skim read that article, will maybe read later when more time but I didn’t like this misinformation about AS in bed with Murdoch etc – that is plain BS.

      It was written from a left POV but the SNP did more to get us this far than all the other parties combined.

      I cant be assed with these how we would have done it better – cos they didnt

    270. voidseeker says:

      On the same page – 91 year old campaigner in tears calling on the next generation to fight for welfare state.

      The young people in Scotland made social justice their battle cry and it was the pensioners that kicked sand in their face.

      The 45 movement.

    271. Iain Gray's Subway Lament says:

      Holy shit!! 😮

      The SNP now has 50,000 members!!

      Absolutely astonishing! 😮 😮

      Now watch the FEAR and PANIC from ‘scottish’ Labour. 😀

    272. gillie says:

      Murphy is a very divisive character whilst Lamont is just a gormless fool.

      We should welcome Murphy to Holyrood because it will kill two birds with one stone. He will be on the opposition benches leading a dysfunctional party, and he will have lost all hopes of becoming a high-heid-yin at Westminster.

    273. Robert Louis says:

      Macart,

      I know what you mean. Don’t worry, I’m not a firebrand, but I just want to make sure folks realise the whole debate is different now, in 2014.

      In the 80’s Independence was seen by many as simply ‘daft’ or ‘pure mental’. Now it is not, it is a perfectly legitimate and accepted idea and if I’d point to one major achievement of Salmond, it is in making that change happen. By going back to devo max, we will once again allow the debate to slip backwards – and our opponents will make sure of it.

      We only lost by 5%, that’s all. Had it been 70/30, then even I would be arguing for devo max.

      Anyway, I’ve said my piece. Let’s see how things move forward, as events in England may indeed outpace any changes in Scotland.

    274. Brian Fleming says:

      Roger says:

      “No, the real question is how would it fly in SCOTLAND. There would be a danger of a civil war – do you think the Loyalists, with their links to the UDA and the rest, would be beyond starting real trouble? And do you not realise that there are people who would give them guns? This has got to be handled so carefully….”

      Agreed, Roger. But we are going to have to take on the so-called ‘Loyalists’ at some point anyway. We tried for a peaceful revolution and the democratic process has been subverted by the BBC, Unionist politicians and fraud at the counts. It’s time to join the real world and take on these thugs and scoundrels.

    275. Finnz says:

      MJS Dundee is indeed correct when describing the campaign.

      The initial impression at my polling station was that no thanks were much more prepared with polling agents everywhere all checking who was voting, interacting with the older voters and Nursing Home attendees who were being bus’d in.

      The slick unionist political machine was evident on referendum day and it is that challenge we face.

    276. Morag says:

      Try it in bits.

      Heedtracker, I get that you’re angry about the early postal vote sampling, and why. You have a right to be.

      It’s a side-effect of the transparency of the process. Postal vote agents are entitled to witness the opening of the postal votes, as part of the transparency. In that context they may see they way some of the ballots are marked, although the tellers try to conceal the front of the papers.

      It’s a bit of a game. Tellers try to hide the papers and agents try to see them. What is supposed to stop it being a problem is the undertaking of secrecy that every agent has to agree to. It’s accepted they may see something, unavoidably, because they have a right to witness the process. They are then put on their honour not to tell.

    277. Macart says:

      Agreed RL.

      I reckon we can make life extremely uncomfortable for the Westminster parties simply by being fully engaged and switched on. The pressure for the change we really want will become unbearable and unstoppable.

      I remember early doors in the campaign AS saying that regardless of result on the day, independence would be inevitable.

      Prophetic words? 🙂

    278. Morag says:

      Someone told Ruth, and if you want to make an issue of that, carry on. I’m just warning that it may not be taken as seriously as you would like.

    279. cynical lowlander says:

      @Nana Smith.

      It will go into his “charity” so nothing more will be heard about it.

    280. Ryan says:

      Can’t believe more scots would rather be British than scottish voting against there own country’s future I fear for my children’s future something has to happen cant get over this every time I think about it I get steaming mad lets turn the screw and keep the pressure up this cant be the end canceled tv licence today disgusted with mms.

    281. Dcanmore says:

      @Chalks …

      Correct! This is all about tactics now, persuading the 20% soft NOs to come to our side. Also need to engage in the 800,000 who didn’t vote. This new campaign needs to be clever and I feel spread over the next three years to take in the hat trick of GE2015, SE2016 and SLE2017. If we get an SNP majority in all of those elections then we can talk about independence again. But for now the concentration needs to be the betterment of our communities at a local level and how Devo-max (proper full fiscal autonomy) can work for them.

      Like Aneurin Bevan said about persuading the medical profession to come together to form the NHS … ‘We had to stuff their mouths with gold.’

    282. Just watched the Daily Politcs first time on BBC for a couple of weeks.

      1. Watched Andrew Neill thorough questions Caroline Flint and Hilary Benn. Pity the unionists spokepeople up here weren’t scrutinised in the same way.

      2. Listened intently to how the question of Scottish MPs voting on English matters and everything related (like London MPs voting on Yorkshire matters) is causing a whole lot of discomfort to them.

      3. So is it safe to say that everything not devolved to Scotland, like DEFENCE etc, should only have Scottish MPs voting on them.

      If Scottish MPs can’t vote on English matters then English MPs should not be allowed to vote on Scottish matters that have not been devolved.

    283. Bugger (the Panda) says:

      SNP now 50,000 members

    284. Morag says:

      Can’t understand why Akismet doesn’t like the last sentence.

      I just don’t think Ruth passed on the message, because it doesn’t make sense for them to have gone with the Vow if they knew No was looking good in the postals.

    285. muttley79 says:

      Doug Daniel made an interesting post on here in the last few days, at least I think it was here (might have been Derek Bateman’s blog). Doug says we had an agreed process for the referendum before we had any were like the sufficient support, or broad based movement required, to win a Yes vote. We clearly need to create the conditions in which people feel sufficiently confident to publicly support independence. I think we have to learn from other movements, particularly the one in Catalonia. They have the exact opposite situation to us. They do not have an agreed process, but already have a very large independence movement needed. They got over 1 million people to attend an independence rally and march. Thursday showed that we are not yet at the stage were we can win comfortably a referendum on independence. We need to play the long game.

    286. Robert Louis says:

      steve andrews,

      I agree with almost everything you say, except the independence argument being dead. I know we lost, and need to re-build, but the argument itself is not dead.

      I wholly agree about election strategy. The big advantage we have in the UKGE, is that Labour will be so busy in England ,they will not be able to bus up volunteers from England to help them out, like they did in the referendum. That gives us an advantage.

      For Holyrood, I’d like to aim for getting as many pro indy in seats. This will need all three SSP, Greens and SNP to prepare and work together on strategy. It could be done.

    287. Morag says:

      Oops sorry, these last three posts were meant to be a single post I was trying to post in the last thread, but Akismet was playing up. Please disregard!

    288. IheartScotland says:

      @Davidb,
      What’s wrong with Jimmy Shand? 🙂
      (Please don’t reply)

    289. Faltdubh says:

      This ‘OneScotland’ banner I’ve seen.

      A few observations.

      Shouldn’t it be ‘OneBritain’ – the most wearing it would before to be ruled from there.

      The only Yes supporters with it as a Twibbon are more than likely SNP high up MPs or hacks as a good will gesture.

    290. Ghillie Mackay says:

      Hi Robert Louis,

      Given we have seen Westminster at it’s best: lying, cheating, terrorizing and finally bribing (text book school playground bullying) I would NEVER trust them with a Devomax or Devoanything ever!

      As you say, we came so close. 45% voting YES in the face of absolutely everything one of the most powerful establishments in the world could throw at Scotland (bar the tanks,which given time may have appeared) is an incredible achievement!

      And I for one will not back down. The only road is the road to independence.

      Now we have the hidden blessing of a wee bit extra time to address the fears and concerns of those who felt compelled to vote against what I believe is a truly bright future.

    291. Robert Louis says:

      SNP now on 50,000 members.

      Even I am gobsmacked. Lots of pro indy folk now joining up.

      https://my.snp.org/join

      Hotline here: 0800 633 5432, if the website is busy.

    292. chalks says:

      Also, forgot to say, there is nothing stopping the SNP from holding a consultative referendum on Trident, it doesn’t have to be agreed by Westminster.

      Would be an interesting one.

    293. bald eagle says:

      NEED SOME HELP I’VE BEEN TRYING TO JOIN THE SNP AND WHEN I PUT MY BANK DETAILS IN IT KEEPS SAYING WRONG BANK DETAILS SO TRIED ANOTHER ACCOUNT SAME BANK SAME DETAILS ECT

      PARTNER SAME BANK SHE JOINS AS SOON AS THE SUBMIT BUTTON IS PRESSED

      SO CAN ANYBODY ADVISE I REALLY WANT IT TO GO THROUGH MY BANK

      PS PHONED THE BANK AND THEY SAID MY ACCOUNT IS NOT SET UP FOR DIRECT DEBIT FUNNY THAT BEEN PAYING DIRECT DEBIT FOR YEARS ANYBODY HELP

    294. JBS says:

      @Ian Brotherhood

      Can see a danger in replacing Lamont with Murphy as it would only provide further evidence of Labour’s intellectual and moral bankruptcy.

      Still, as you say, it would be great fun to watch Sturgeon tearing Skeletor several new arseholes every week. Comedy Platinum.

    295. Robert Louis says:

      Macart,

      Indeed. The FM in his resignation press conference, actually sais he fully expects independence in his lifetime – and he’s 59! So we have hope 🙂

    296. Robert Peffers says:

      @heedtracker says: 23 September, 2014 at 9:28 am:

      “Lord Barnett in the Daily Heil”.

      Is just one more numptie dedicated to retaining England’s grip over the United Kingdom Parliament.

      When setting out to fix or cure a problem or fault the very first thing you must do is properly identify the problem or fault. Failing to do so has the problem solver/fault finder shuffling around in an unfamiliar environment, in total darkness, without a flash light and no clear idea of what they are searching for. They are thus in grave danger of stumbling into an unseen, unknown death-trap and being killed.

      So just what is the main problem now being sought by both the Westminster Establishment in London and the entire independence movement in Scotland? We must look at the facts from both points of view. I’ll put that another way for you. Why do many Scots want to be independent and what is it they want to be independent from? What is the problem that the Union has with Scotland gaining independence and what do they think the Scots want to be independent from.

      All of which boils down to one quite simple past fact engineered by the Westminster Parliament itself. UNEQUAL DEVOLUTION OF POWERS FROM WESTMINSTER has resulted in the Westminster Parliament having two, often clashing, parliaments in the one house but with the majority country NOT devolved but using the Westminster parliament as its own not devolved parliament.

      Thus Westminster, once the single bipartite parliament of the United Kingdom,has split itself up but not along the lines of Kingdoms as it began, but along the lines of the four countries of that United Kingdom but has not done so equitably. England is not a devolved country and has no real elected parliament and England is funded as the United Kingdom. Thus the 533 English majority of MPs in Westminster all wear two hats.

      So the elected as United Kingdom Members from England must obviously put the interests of England first because if they do not they risk the people in their constituency vote against them ant put them on the dole.

      That is the real problem of the United Kingdom – it has become the unelected parliament of England and the problem will not go away until England becomes a devolved country with its own parliament. As long as it remains an integral part of the actual United Kingdom parliament the system is broken and is building up resentment throughout the United Kingdom.

      No one is facing up to the real problem and are instead picking away at the scab as if that were the problem. They needs remember what their old Granny told them when they were wee boys & girls, “It’ll never get better if you pick it”. However, in this case it won’t get better all by itself. It needs proper treatment and that is to either return to the Union being a bipartite union and disuniting or becoming a proper federal union with England’s parliament getting to hell out of the Westminster parliament and becoming a proper English parliament. (however, with England’s size a proper Federal union is not going to work unless England is split into regions and the Scots are not going to accept being treated as a region of England.

    297. Capella says:

      Re comparison to membership of other parties in Scotland. Better nation tallied the votes for the leadership contest and has a table showing Labour with 13,000 in Scotland. That must be an exaggeration as some people had 2 votes. Since last week there may have been a few resignations;
      http://www.betternation.org/2010/09/just-how-big-is-labour-in-scotland/
      Liberals have around 3,500 but Tories seem to keep their membership very hush hush, but probably less than the Liberals.

    298. Jim McIntosh says:

      @Capella

      Perhaps you should reread my posts, and the link you posted – I said in the first post:

      “Ashcroft’s poll indicated that 72% of NO’s made their mind up over a year ago”

      From the second post:
      “with over 1.4 million voters having made up their mind to vote NO over a year ago “

      And from the link you posted:
      Longer than a year ago – 10%
      Always been a NO: 62%

      When I went to school that was 72%, which is what I said.

    299. boris says:

      Ed Balls set out the direction a future Labour Government would take, if elected. Overall it seems his proposals would increase the budget deficit to around £100Billion. This would require funding and bets are the party would need to increase personal taxes significantly OR borrow the money from the World Bank adding the new loan to the £1.8trillion the country already owes. What a disaster!! A terrible legacy to be handed over to our children. Meantime bankers and their ilk are picking up salaries and bonus packages well in excess of £3Million each year. The very very rich need to give much much more back to society.

      http://caltonjock.com/2014/09/23/labour-party-manifesto-plans-for-the-2015-general-election/

    300. Iain Gray's Subway Lament says:

      For our friend with the caps lock problem (which might also be a problem if he’s trying to use a website to join the SNP)

      Hotline here: 0800 633 5432, if the website is busy.

    301. Ananurhing says:

      Been trying to sign up 4 new SNP members the last 3 nights, and am absolutely delighted I’ve been unable to get through.

      Our memberships are now inevitable. Just a matter of time.

    302. Cal says:

      If you’ve not alreay done it sign the petition to have BBC Scotland devolved to the Scottish parliament

      http://www.thepetitionsite.com/574/697/105/put-scotland-in-control-of-scottish-broadcasting/

    303. Archie [not Erchie] says:

      @ baldeagle – Just phone the hotline 0800 633 5432 and do it over the phone. 🙂

    304. Faltdubh says:

      Joined the SNP on Friday.

      Loving also that my RBS account (has less than 40 odd quid in it) will be slowly dripping that monthly donation/membership to the SNP.

      Then once that account has come to an end. I’ll pay the membership using a different account, but keep maybe 45pence in the RBS account as I believe if you keep anything less than £10 in a bank account, it costs them money.

    305. Chic McGregor says:

      Looking at things from within the British Nationalist logic bubble. What would you do?

      From that vantage point I think I would do everything in my power to make the SNP victorious in 2016.

      My worst nightmare would be Labour taking control and being killed off once and for all by the cuts.

      The death of a thousand cuts must be visited on the SNP and therefore Scottish independence.

      Therefore that is what I am presuming their strategy is.

      I don’t see how the SNP can avoid being elected into government easily.

      However one solution would be to make it an election promise that if elected that they will immediately ask for negotiations with Westminster on independence. If Westminster refuse then UDI is justifiable.

      This may cause them to lose in 2016 leaving Labour to face the consequences of remaining Better Together and making it quite likely IMV that the SNP would win on the same ticket in 2020.

      If the SNP still won on that ticket in 2016, great, game over.

      If the SNP are elected in 2016 without such a mandate, I think they will be finished as per presumed UPlan A.

    306. Nigerian Pirate says:

      Agree with heedtracker on what he says about Sir Iain Wood

      Also fwiw – Iain Wood’s many companies are based around oil field support services, like construction and maintenance. They are not oil producing companies. They are not involved in oil exploration i.e drilling.

      His estimate of figures was based on recoverable oil from existing fields in the North Sea. No mention of new oil finds or the West Coast / Atlantic margins.

      But his intervention and comments came at a critical time in the run up to the referendum. I cant exactly remember but it was the same day as the Yes campaign had announced some (more) positive news.

      He was utilised by the Government to deliver a negative message – to try and douse the positive message that day. As usual the MSM made sure that his message came across, loud and clear, even if the reality of the message was anything but clear.

      And for that reason, Sir Iain Wood is an effing prick.

    307. chalks says:

      Chic, we campaign to get as many SNP MP’s in power to go for devo max, see how that goes (ha ha) then in the run up to 2016, we go for independence.

      Think that is the most logical route…I can already see the soft no’s turning……lol

      Another reason to wait is that Catalonia might well be independent and even in the EU, so we may have a friend in the EU who can put that straw issue to bed.

    308. muttley79 says:

      On the Yes side, there are a lot of positives to take on into the future. However, the SG did not do well in their original handling of the EU question, and it dragged on from there. More importantly, the currency issue was handled badly, probably even worse than the initial EU issue. The idea of a currency union was not necessary wrong, after all Darling himself said it was logical. However, it reached its nadir in the first debate between Salmond and Darling. The first debate was watched by more people, despite the STV Live Player crashing…

      We needed to keep repeating the simple message, that the pound is an internationally tradable currency, therefore it was never in the gift of the UK government to deny it to an independent Scotland. Quoting the Fiscal Commission’s study clearly did not cut it with many people (many low information voters would never have even heard of it for starters). We only really got this message over in the last few weeks, and by then we had to deal with an a blitz of the warnings from the banks, supermarkets, IMF. Its effectiveness was clearly undermined because of this.

      The No campaign reached far more pensioners and unfortunately their scare tactics worked very well in terms of that section. Another problem was that the right wing Conservative support for independence was not nearly strong enough.

    309. Midgehunter says:

      Robert Peffers said:

      Thing is, Achnababan, they have, not been lack lustre but they do not get covered by the lying MSM and BBC, (Biased Broadcasting Clique). They go largely unreported while the Westminster tripartite Establishment always have the ear & voice of the media, then Joe & Josephine Scot-Public get a one-sided-view.

      Even when the Scottish media do bother to report things the are one sided. The media bosses have no compunction whatsoever of removing, one way or another, any even handed broadcaster or reporter who dares be even handed.

      This is exactly way we need our own print media and broadcaster. In spite of falling sales, newspapers are still widely read and many folk get their info from them.

      The internet is ours but we’re still only chatting to ourselves.

      We somehow need to set up one quality daily national newspaper for Scotland. Our own megaphone…

      Damit, we have a potential fired-up readership of several hundred thousand. (At least till Indy!)

      Maybe the “Scotsman” (or?) could be bought out cheaply

      Stop buying MSM newspapers (or linking without archiving) with one exception – Sunday Herald – give the SH guys a reason and motivation to keep going for YES. Starve the rest.

    310. gillie says:

      With over 50,000 members with the overwhelming majority of new members being ex-Labour supporters we now have in effect a new party in Scotland – The Scottish Independence Party.

    311. liz says:

      We will need to co-ordinate all the yes groups.

      I will help to do that in any way we can.

      I think we now have a strong yes base and we need to pull up the liar every time there is a lie mentioned on TV/MSM.

      We need to quickly get out to those the lie was targeted at and dispel it before it has time to grow.

      The proud Scots are outwith our reach they are brit nats so we should not waste any time with them.

      Also I think we now have to reach out to the rUK and involve those who want changes but not thro BLAB because they are proven liars.

      Hopefully someone more organised than me can think of ways to achieve this but I’m here to help.

    312. Tommy Kane says:

      O/T pardon me but the Scottish parliament opens up at 2pm and I was looking for the direct link not the one that chops the end off when it does not like the debate (EBC). Can someone post it please
      Thanks

    313. Nana Smith says:

      @Nigerian Pirate

      I believe he is heavily involved in the fracking business.

      The man is a liar.

    314. Nana Smith says:

      @Liz

      Perhaps the people’s assembly is one such group we should reach out to.

      They have held demos and marches against austerity & privatisation and they have more planned.

      People’s Assembly [office [at] thepeoplesassembly [dot] org [dot] uk]

    315. Calgacus says:

      Some really good comments today, lots to think about. 50000 SNP members. This is so encouraging and will have toxic labour gnashing their teeth.

    316. Valerie says:

      Have to agree that Skeletor May not leave the WM trough, as he only serves himself, and being intellectually challenged, he will be savaged in Holyrood.
      Lots of groups now looking at constituency figures, and looking at gains needed to bury Labour, great to see that focus moving.

    317. crisiscult says:

      was just on herald page. Have been resisting any visits to Scottish media pages as I don’t want them getting any clicks but I weakened today and noticed a lot of people still commenting. Would it not be a good idea to pull out of commenting on Herald (and obviously the really sh1tty rags such as Scotsman and DR)? Just a thought.

    318. Nana Smith says:

      @Calgacus

      Labour’s teeth, what I’ve seen of those especially in lamont’s head need pulling out hard. YUK!

    319. Dr Jim says:

      Re caps lock,it was my grandson’s keyboard and too modern for me,incidentally been a member of SNP over 40 years
      time flies eh!Running off to watch FM speech now,i hope it’s what i think it’s going to be

    320. liz says:

      Just went over to the Lab for Indy FB page and there are still some folk on there saying ‘fight from within’, unions giving lab it’s ‘final warning’ – these people make me despair.

      The majority however are saying never again to Lab.

      This whole fight from within is bollocks.

      I remember when the EIS shafted the members by accepting a deal on behalf of teachers, even though the ballot from members said no just before the 2011 Holyrood election cos they thought Lab would get in.

      Lots of members were furious and talking of resigning from the EIS when some bright spark suggesting setting up a group to fight from within

      Well as you can imagine it went no-where and people did not resign.
      No doubt said bright spark got promoted

    321. Midgehunter says:

      @ Tommy Kane

      http://www.scottishparliament.tv/

      This is the one you need.

      The interlude music stops when the political things start.

    322. heedtracker says:

      Just watched Andy Murray get monstered by BBC Jacky Bird lunchtime news with two other slackers, so they have gone and joined the SNP online right now on work pc’s too, £12 each.

      Same workplace where management told us we’d out of work if we voted YES. Times are a changed.

      Actually one just said they’ve applied to join but there’s loads of room:D

    323. Macart says:

      @crisiscult

      Top of the to do list for pro independence support – chuck the mainstream press habit. We don’t visit, we don’t buy, we don’t support.

      In terms of telly – strong protest would be chucking the licence fee or if people feel they can’t or don’t wish to do without their telly, but do wish to support independence and lodge a less pro-active protest, then hit them in the viewing figures. Don’t switch on to the Beeb or ITV and any of its franchises. Make their viewing numbers drop off a cliff as it were.

    324. bookie from hell says:

      heed any chance posting link,jacky bird

      thx

    325. On the rubbishing of “a positive campaign will always beat a negative one” remark above, I wouldn’t be so certain that the positive campaign lost. I suspect much of the grass roots upsurge was partly as a result of the positive Yes stance, and that a negative slagging match would have alienated and turned off many potential supporters, especially women whose votes it was necessary to attract. Television debates were often criticised for their pointed finger, shouty format which did little to attract support.

      Nor should a positive campaign stop pulling opponents up on lies and misinformation. Over the campaign, there has been much criticism of speakers who should have said this, put the boot in on that, not let their opponent away with certain points and blatant lies. But during the style of debate used on television, there is only so much that can be challenged. Perhaps the right issues weren’t always the ones challenged, where this was even possible, but some of these speakers had been campaigning non stop for two years, and in the final part of the campaign can have had little free time or even sleep.

      All those who spoke on behalf of the Yes campaign, for the most part eloquently and to the point, must be thanked for their efforts. Yes, they may not always have performed to their best, but hey, we’re all human, subject to being dog-tired, and having our off days. For my part, I think they did a wonderful job. And I don’t think wall to wall negativity would have worked. Yes, the No campaign won with it, but we achieved a 45% vote which to my mind may well not have been possible with negativity. And we have a large, enthusiastic grass roots movement still willing to campaign while Labour appear to be losing voters like water pouring down a plughole.

    326. liz says:

      @crisiscult – I have given up reading and commenting on all MSM – will not give them any more traffic cos this increases their revenue.

    327. Muscleguy says:

      @Chris Baxter

      Other than the cost of collecting the proportion of income tax that will be the responsibility of the Scottish govt where does the cut come? IF the taxes raise £5bn then Barnett is cut by £5bn therefore revenue neutral (minus costs).

      They are useless precisely because it cannot be used to raise more money for Scotland as the neutrality will be maintained regardless of the tax rates we set.

      Which is why describing these as new ‘powers’ is so disingenuous. They are expensive responsibilities only. Even if changing the rate had some beneficial effect on the Scottish economy how can the Scottish Government capture that in the powers they will have?

    328. Chic McGregor says:

      Chalks
      If Devomax included ALL tax revenues including oil, whisky etc. then it would give the SNP government 2016-2020 a chance of survival, but Westminster will still be able to make it difficult.

      2020 Labour – reset, still most likely.

      No harm in going for devomax in 2015 as long as it isn’t a new party which will split the vote.

      As long as it is replaced by an indy mandate for 2016.

    329. MochaChoca says:

      With the Westminster FPTP system, if we get a majority of Scottish constituencies it would be a powerful message but is really neither here nor there in terms of pushing for UDI.

      We need a clear majority of the Scottish electorate, either in a General Election or in a Scottish election, supporting pro-indy parties. That would be a basis for UDI, but even then I think a better route would be a snap referendum, say a month or two after a suitable election result.

      Technically, between the SNP, SSP, Greens and Margo you could say there is/was a majority of the electorate already supporting indy minded candidates/partys, but our d’hondt voting system makes quantifying that somewhat difficult.

      There is clearly an appetite for continued mass political involvement, and the arguments are largely in place, but obviously need work to bring on board those unwilling last week.

    330. Fred says:

      The odious Jack Straw want’s Scotland built into the Union by law, complete anexation, so there is never another referendum. I know what a creep he is but is it just too daft for words? not a lot of response from the peeps.

      scotlandfirst.

    331. scotty land says:

      Cameron taking a cut back if we decided to raise tax etc.Ed Balls freezing child benefit to 1%.
      Still there’s light at the end of the tunnel for out poorest kids in burger shops etc. Ed Milliband says minimum wage will be £8.00 an hour in 2020. So are these the ideals of batter together. Seems that they are better together at shafting us all. Here is what we could have had, please pass on to the NO’s who prefer the butchers apron to logic. ww.businessforscotland.co.uk/where-does-scotlands-wealth-go/?CachedSimilar
      8 Aug 2013 … It is clear to see that London and the south are by far the wealthiest parts of the
      UK. … In some areas in Scotland more than 1 in 3 children grow up in poverty (1
      in …. If Scotland does get the oil, then there will more jobs for Scottish …… has run
      up massive debt and lets us pay more of that debt back than the …www.businessforscotland.co.uk/where-does-scotlands-wealth-go/?CachedSimilar
      8 Aug 2013 … It is clear to see that London and the south are by far the wealthiest parts of the
      UK. … In some areas in Scotland more than 1 in 3 children grow up in poverty (1
      in …. If Scotland does get the oil, then there will more jobs for Scottish …… has run
      up massive debt and lets us pay more of that debt back than the …
      http://www.businessforscotland.co.uk/where-does-scotlands-wealth-go/?CachedSimilar
      8 Aug 2013 … It is clear to see that London and the south are by far the wealthiest parts of the
      UK. … In some areas in Scotland more than 1 in 3 children grow up in poverty.
      up massive debt and lets us pay more of that debt back than the …

    332. Gordon E says:

      Tommy Kane

      Direct link to Scottish parliament chamber. Starts at 2.00

      http://directory.libsyn.com/episode/index/id/3075491

    333. Chris Baxter says:

      Muscleguy

      where does the cut come?

      From the bulk amount being given to the Scottish Government. Why is this so complicated for you?

      Why would the Scottish Government raise tax if they knew that the money raised would be cancelled by Westminster cutting the block grant? That doesn’t make the slightest bit of sense.

      You, and many other people, it seems, has this the wrong way round.

      It will not be 1) Scottish Government raises taxes, which provides £5 billion more funds, and consequently 2) Westminster cuts Scottish lump sum by £5 billion.

      Can you see how that is crazy and futile?

      What will be the flow is:

      1) UK Government reduces lump sum by £5 billion. 2) Scottish Government either raises taxes or cuts services.

      First blood comes from the UK Government, not the Scottish Government.

    334. Chris Baxter says:

      Here is a link to the Scottish Government budget in 2011/12:

      http://scotland.gov.uk/Resource/Doc/919/0119252.pdf

      You can see from that that the Scottish Grant was £33 billion.

      If Westminster chooses to lower than to £28 billion, the Scottish Government will have £5 billion less to spend, and would have to either raise taxes or make cuts.

      What won’t happen is for the Scottish Government to raise taxes, and so the budget is now £38 billion, only for the Westminster Government to consequently cut the budget by £5 billion to even it out. Doing that is senseless.

    335. Derek Henry says:

      It is time for reflection

      In my view the SNP was a victim of their own success. The polling figures suggest that no Scottish Government have been liked so much after being in power for so long. The reason for this is because nobody knew if they had the skills to run the country and yet they have done a sterling job.

      It is ironic that it was the silent majority and some SNP voters who lost the vote for independence. They became too comfortable and were in fact protected by the SNP. Even though the cuts from Westminster have been eye watering. The SNP still manged to give free subscription charges, freeze the council tax and free care for the elderly which must have helped the silent majority and the over 55’s.

      When Labour were in charge of the Scottish parliament the council tax rose which affected pensioners the most and people were having to sell their houses to take care of their families in care homes. The SNP protected the elderly from Tory and Labour cuts and yet I don’t even think they recognised this.

      Maybe if the timing was different and say the referendum was held after a Tory or Labour government had been running the Scottish government for a few years. Then the outcome could have been different.

      As for moving forward. For me it is obvious the grass root movement should foreget about indpendence for now and pull together and organise for Home Rule. The next referendum that is put in the SNP manifesto as a mandate should be Home Rule. This is only 2 powers away from full independence. Again with reflection if this referendum had been YES/NO for Home Rule then I’m sure we would have won and we would be so close to the goal that most of us want.

      So we need to calm down and keep quiet for a while and come up with a strategy that will get us a Home Rule referendum over the next few years. One of the ways that we can do this is use the extra powers scenario to move this forward. We will definately not get the powers we want in this new deal after a consensus has been met by all of the establishment parties. Therefore, we need to highlight what we were given and show how this falls short of what we need. I’m sure there are a large percentage of No voters who would also like Home Rule and will join us during this campaign and it would be a great way to help the healing so that we become more united. it will also give us a chance to educate more NO voters on the economics of Home Rule and what that means.

      Let us come up with a strategy and campaign that will give us a home rule referendum that is not rushed and thought through.

      Also we can’t ignore the poor regions of Scoltand that voted for the first time like Castlemilk for the YES campaign or we’ll be no better then the establishment parties. Our work should carry on there on a full time basis and not just turn up when we need the votes.

      If you really think about it.

      Gordon Brown told millions on TV that we would be getting Home Rule.

      It’s obvious we won’t.

      We keep quiet until then and then use that as our rallying point afterwards and bring everybody together to fight on this issue.

      Should the Scottish people have what was promised to them Home Rule YES/NO.

    336. Bugger (the Panda) says:

      Scottish Parliament T V overloaded?

      Can’t get in.

    337. MJarga says:

      Shuggy – you put these words in the mouths of the middle-class No voters – “we’re going to get clobbered for tax to pay for it.”

      A conversation with my retired-teacher No voting cousin,a very nice lady who does a lot of charity work: “I see things as my parents would have. They both employed people. They could never have afforded to give all these benefits.”.

      Also the “sleekit Salmond” and the “none of my friends are Yes voters, I don’t know anyone who is” – and then remembers – “two women who are Yes, but they haven’t dared tell their husbands”. Even “I’ve been impressed recently by Joanne Lamont” (and this from a Conservative voter). And no, “wee Nicola” does not make the grade either, doesn’t wear the right clothes, among other things.

      What can you do? I’ll keep reading to see if there’s any realistic suggestions.

    338. Shuggy says:

      14th most trustworthy?

      Someone should drop them a line

      http://www.transparency.org/cpi2013/results

    339. desimond says:

      Labour Conference background…a blue Union flag.
      Ed in a blue tie.
      Says it all.

    340. Stuart Murray says:

      A quote from Gore Vidal on the American equivalent of the 55% –
      When Americans can’t spot stupid people, the country’s out of business.

    341. Alan McHarg says:

      So if Alex Salmond and the SNP are not the liars they have been made out to be…then who are the liars?

      Ah…the penny drops

    342. Ananurhing says:

      I appreciate people’s views that it has to be indy or nothing, but I don’t think pursuing that goal, and engaging in the Devo debate are mutually exclusive. Devo Schmevo is coming down the pipe at us whatever we do.

      Another indy referendum in the near to middle future still has to deal with the 55 and their fears. Full fat Devo Max could potentially be a way of negating and salving those fears over competence, currency, economy etc. Not just to the electorate, but the rest of the world.

      We need to get past this mentality of “what are they going to offer us” regarding devo. Surely we’re past that now. Waiting for WM to tell us how it’s going to be then selling us a pup? I don’t f’n think so.

      A multiple choice consultative referendum on what we’re willing to contribute to the UK, i.e. defence, foreign affairs, is ours to have, and would send out a strong unmistakeable message that WE ARE SOVEREIGN.

      WM can then confine Barnett to a dark orifice of their choosing, and we can get on with most of the policies we’ve been fighting for, sooner rather than later.

      Independence is inevitable. I don’t think FFA Devo Max is necessarily a hinderance to that, nor should we even consider anything less.

    343. heedtracker says:

      @ bookie from hell, we watched it live, sorry. Really sad to see Andy get treated like a repentant criminal by BBC liggers but incredible recruit boost via that waking nightmare on Pacific Quay.

      It was just like kneel to your masters, losers. But have they really won.

    344. Graeme Doig says:

      Not important but encouraging all the same.

      I decided to put on my ‘Aye’ badge for the first time since Thursday for the short trip to chemist to get medicine for the wee one.

      I noticed 3 cars with their Yes stickers still showing and this in Dalgety Bay !

      They might have won a battle but the war remains to be won. They certainly haven’t won the psychological battle. We’re still alive and well!

    345. Bugger (the Panda) says:

      JoLa does not speak for me.

    346. muttley79 says:

      @MoccaChoca

      Margo sadly has died so you can maybe not mention that one (I know it was an accident, and you must have forgotten).

      On UDI: this is not an option I am afraid. It would be like shooting yourself in the foot with a shotgun. The international community would not recognise it, particularly the USA, for obvious reasons. Declaring UDI is political suicide. I can only assume it is mostly out of disappointment at the result last week, although some Yes supporters have been talking about it from well before the referendum. It is and would be a disaster. You instantly get told in effect to fuck off by the international community. UDI= Instant and disastrous international isolation.

    347. Iain Gray's Subway Lament says:

      You think Jola even knows she’s dead in the water after the briefing against her ‘leadership’ at the labour party conference?

      Regardless, she and her labour troughing westminster masters are finished. She and they are going to get the shock of their lives in 2015 and 2016.

    348. Midgehunter says:

      How on earth can J L compare the George Sq rabble with a peaceful demo against BBC bis… madness!

    349. Tîm Criced i Gymru says:

      A ralllying cry from CYMRU/Wales: You lot are AMAZING… in fact us Celts ALL ARE!We have for centuries being battered and bruised, BUT WE’RE STILL HERE!
      Can I say what an inspiration you all are in your attitude after the gut-wrenching loss on Friday a.m. After what was so heartbreaking, you’ve picked yourselves up and are actually running more determined than ever in my view.
      WOW! I think you are showing all and sundry that ‘You ain’t seen nothing yet!’.
      In fact, I agree with many comments saying it is only now many are picking up on Wings, Newsnet, Bella and the Wee Blue Book and taking it in on reflection… Therefore, need a further run on the WBBs and an upping of the anti on these and other sites – now they have an EVEN MORE significant contribution to make in keeping this momentum flowing into a flood. And btw… well done ANDY, he’s now my hero on the tennis court – don’t let them bother you, you have made umpteen true friends with that tweet last week.

    350. tonymac says:

      Lamonts spinning is making me Dizzy

    351. muttley79 says:

      @Derek Henry

      I agree with a lot of what you have said.

    352. north chiel says:

      As the “dust settles”, it is now fairly obvious that there was 2 principal reasons for “falling short” in the vote.
      (1) the last minute desperate bribe from the unionists , cunningly portrayed by the BBC in blanket 24 hour disgracefully biased output and daily papers as “Devo max” and
      (2) the continual press and tv news bias in the run up to the vote ( remember the report from prof. Robertson ).
      I have read many posts on how to move forward towards the 2015 GE with a view of removing all Westminster labour MP s from Scotland. However as and until (2) above is addressed then this will prove to be very difficult , because during the run up and election campaign the SNP will be squeezed as far as the media is concerned. In Scotland it will be a 3 to 1 disadvantage against SLAB,LIBDEMS, and TORIES . Also the 3 unionist parties will benefit from UK wide election coverage where the 4th party in a UK context will be UKIP.
      Consequently, as and until THE INHERENT BIAS PROBLEM OF THE MEDIA IS ADDRESSED the SNP and other smaller independence parties will continue to be at a significant disadvantage from both a “home” Scottish perspective eg the “Jackie Burd show starring Elanor Bradford “etc. and also from a UK perspective as previously mentioned.
      Could this be countered by a new Scottish channel of mixed programs appealing to the public together with news and current affairs output to rival the unionist news output ?
      Also a similar approach is required as far as the daily newspapers are concerned.

    353. Johann.zzzzzzzzzzzzzzz

    354. Bugger (the Panda) says:

      3 millions No voters and 1.6 millions Yes

      Maths, not her strong point or is this an Orwellian correction?

    355. Faltdubh says:

      Lamont – haha “we were interesting for a time” when referring to the eyes of the world on us.

      Sake woman, we could have still had the eyes on us and been interesting if we voted Yes.

    356. Jim D says:

      @chalks
      Great post mate. Voices like yours deserve a wider platform.

    357. Free Scotland says:

      Slightly O/T, I know (sorry), but please never forget the sight of Anas Sarwar and Johann Lamont getting all gleeful and excited when Scotland elected a single UKIP MEP. Labour, whether in Scotland or in England, are scraping the bottom of the political barrel. (Now, now, no jokes about David Coburn shouting “ouch” or being a masochist.)

    358. Nana Smith says:

      I can not watch another minute of these liars. Lamont & Davidson a bloody disgrace!

    359. Iain Gray's Subway Lament says:

      @Midgehunter

      Since her job as leader is hanging by a shoogly peg right now perhaps the Biased BBC will offer the comical JoLa some kind of job as recompense?

      No doubt BBC ‘News’ would consider her an ideal and totally impartial newscaster or an unbiased host for a public affairs programme. 😉

    360. desimond says:

      @North Chiel

      Agreed, although I suggested a more clinical approach at 23 September, 2014 at 10:14 am

    361. Iain Gray's Subway Lament says:

      Davidson’s lost the plot. Where’s yer VOW now dear?
      Just another Tory Liar.

    362. Sinky says:

      Interesting comment by former footballer Michael Stewart on BBC Radio Scotland at lunchtime around 1.20 pm that immediately after Andy Murray’s tweet for YES, impartial journalist Kirsty Wark tweeted that it must be a spoof!

    363. muttley79 says:

      I am having a stream of rambling consciousness on the events of last week, so apologies if none are related to each other, and all over the place! 😀 😀

      I heard George Kerevan say on Sunday Politics that Yes won. No, we did not. We will not recover, or even begin too, unless we acknowledge the reality of the defeat, painful as that is and albeit by a fairly close margin. Yes, there is plenty of positives to take from the Yes campaign, and the size of the Yes vote etc. However, it is deluded to say we won. We may well do so in the middle and long term, but we lost the vote.

    364. Bugger (the Panda) says:

      Wee Willie Rennie

      Ye ain’t seen nothing yet, am wee laddie

    365. Training Day says:

      Someone please explain to me why overtly campaigning for devo max/home rule is a good idea.

      The raison d’etre of the SNP is independence. It has doubled its membership on that basis in the last four days.

      I understand the logic of waiting and watching as Westminster’s ‘devo max’ unravels and, most likely, no further powers are devolved.

      But explicitly modifying the purpose of the SNP? Don’t get it. Let Westminster do the work for us over the coming months and we won’t have to beg for crumbs.

    366. muttley79 says:

      @Bugger

      Lamont said that the Scottish people voted for the Union, so her propensity to talk utter bullshit is very high indeed. No surprise if she said No got 3 million and not 2 million votes.

    367. crisiscult says:

      any views on a poll BT trumpeting that only 25-39 voted yes (the braveheart generation I presume)?

    368. Bugger (the Panda) says:

      Gave on Holyrood TV, same old, same old.

      Back to the battle.

    369. muttley79 says:

      @Training Day

      Someone please explain to me why overtly campaigning for devo max/home rule is a good idea.

      We got beat on Thursday in the independence vote. That simple I am afraid.

    370. Ian Brotherhood says:

      Oh FFS, Wille Rennie gibbering about his window cleaner. The guy has escaped from a Carry On movie.

    371. James123 says:

      SNP has now doubled its membership since Friday, I do not think it is out of the bounds of possibility that it could reach 100,000, that’s just 6% of the people who voted Yes.

    372. Tommy Kane says:

      Folks thanks for the links, some of them were impossible to get in, too busy, good sign me thinks, watching on tv.

      Thanks again

    373. Training Day says:

      @Muttley

      We lost by 5%, and you and I know that the prospects of Westminster agreeing to what we would understand as devo max are zero. I don’t see the point in formally adopting that as the new goal.

    374. ChrisB says:

      In case anyone missed the article by Murphy in the Daily Mail on Saturday, here’s the archive version:

      https://archive.today/Uvp1B

      Highlights include:
      “And it wasn’t just me; Ed Miliband and others were also in their sights, and the BBC’s Glasgow HQ was targeted by Yes protesters because of unfounded allegations of anti-independence bias at the BBC.”

    375. A Smith says:

      Just listening to Ed the Red (Maybe that should be blue) saying that if the Torys start saying ‘Vote for us and just after the general election things will change’ … does he think we all have MUG tattooed on our foreheads. He did exactly the same on the 19th and the Scots are not going to forget that. These Westmonster politicians have a whole party behind them who are blinded to real life. I have never been so fired up and dissolution with these Etonians. Lets make sure we stick together and keep the faith. They will try really hard to fragment us and make sure they pull through and win as many seats as they have now. This is a genuine fight against the Whitehall Mafia.

    376. MJarga says:

      If it’s true about Jim Murphy being forced to replace Lamont, it seems that the referendum No has unleashed an exercise of total rowing back on devolution, scorched earth tactics.

      Didn’t Cameron say that never again would independence be on the agenda. Looks like he or at least the UK establishment meant it.

    377. Bugger (the Panda) says:

      ChrisB says:

      That comes as close as you can to being a gross calumny.

    378. muttley79 says:

      @Training Day

      We adopt it because we have to acknowledge the defeat last week. Westminster either delivers substantially more powers for Scotland, or the agreement not to hold another independence referendum gets shelved because they did not keep to their promises and vows. They also effectively broke the purdah period as well. Westminster cannot have it both ways.

    379. Faltdubh says:

      Go drunk Neil Findlay you are home.

    380. HandandShrimp says:

      Training Day

      I think the SNP can press for as many powers as we can wrest from Westminster without still holding as first principle that independence is best.

      However politics is the art of the doable. Cameron may move on Devo Max not because he wants to reward Scotland, although that might be an outcome, but because it would discombobulate Miliband. A fall out of a federal solution is Home Rule for England which Cameron’s back benchers want.

      If we obtained Home Rule and Westminster tried to disadvantage Scotland we would be in a stronger position and have the mechanisms to strike out for independence.

      It isn’t ideal, a Yes vote would have been a cleaner break. However, I think Westminster will cough up on further powers because they are aware that they could alienate voters if they don’t.

    381. Training Day says:

      @ Muttley

      ‘Westminster either delivers substantially more powers for Scotland, or the agreement not to hold another independence referendum gets shelved because they did not keep to their promises and vows. They also effectively broke the purdah period as well. Westminster cannot have it both ways.’

      Indeed so. But none of the above necessitates shifting the SNP’s goal from independence to devo whatever.

    382. Macart says:

      @ChrisB

      And that is why regardless of who send, they are toast in Scotland. During this campaign they have lied, misled, misrepresented, smeared and defamed. Westminster cannot help but be Westminster and they will, in their arrogance, screw this up.

      Labour are about to be very forcibly ejected from any position of responsibility in Scotland. Their conduct has earned them no less and Murphy continuing the innocent victim line merely underscores the why of it. He was egged, people in George Sq. were being abused, beaten and hounded.

      No hiding place for ‘British’ Labour, they need to go.

    383. muttley79 says:

      I agree HandandShrimp. We have no choice for the short term now Training Day. We did not get over 50 per cent. Therefore, the focus changes. But Westminster has now to deliver. If they don’t there will be consequences.

    384. Ron Maclean says:

      We seem to be getting on the right track by examining where we might have gone wrong. A starting point would help. The SNP won an election outright and were bounced into the referendum without having much information about the likely outcome. There was little choice and it’s difficult to point the finger at anyone associated with that decision.

      The idea that a positive campaign will always beat a negative one surfaced early. It was difficult to argue against and in my view encouraged complacency and a tendency to overlook the lying and bias from the obnoxious hypocrites of the MSM and the No side. Things would be all right on the night. That was wrong and we lost.

    385. Robert Louis says:

      Was it on here, that Wullie Rennie was once accurately described by REV Stu as ‘a sheep in sheep’s clothing’? – or was it the FM who said it?

    386. Janet W says:

      O/T Can someone please link to event happening on this Saturday Edinburgh, if still going ahead? Seen a link on here somewhere and Facebook now lost. Thanks.

    387. HandandShrimp says:

      I tend to view Willie Rennie as a pheasant in sheep’s clothing

    388. kennym says:

      Has there been any announcement about the SNP, SSP, and Greens forgetting their differences for the time being and having talks about the overall strategy for building on the 1.6m and taking the Independence movement forward, by whatever acceptable means necessary?

      Personally I think that while the Yes campaign was great and got us closer to self governance and dignity than ever before, I think that its optimism and vibrancy may have been perceived by centre right Scots as happy clappy pie in the sky left leaning idealism and would not have particularly appealed to them.

      Not suggesting that they lose focus on fairness, justice, equity and helping the poor and vulnerable, just that BfS had far too low a profile during the campaign. A broad church has to be just that – broad.

    389. Nana Smith says:

      Well it does seem the vow was a lie. As we already know there are no honourable people in Westminster.

      So long as they can fill their pockets with taxpayers cash they will continue to do so.

      http://www.snp.org/media-centre/news/2014/sep/tories-seek-cut-scotlands-budget

    390. Fiona says:

      @ Muscleguy 2:01 pm

      Why do you suppose the barnett grant will be cut pound for pound

      It is perfectly clear that part of the case they are making is that we get more money per head in public spending than do the english: They think that needs to be addressed. Seems to me that the barnett grant will be cut by more than the tax raised, as I mentioned upthread

      Why am I wrong?

    391. Nana Smith says:

      For anyone who missed it, here is the FM’s speech…

      http://news.scotland.gov.uk/Speeches-Briefings/First-Minister-statement-1076.aspx

    392. Good god listening to that creep milliband trying to sound sincere makes me want to vomit.

    393. Bugger (the Panda) says:

      @ Fiona

      Agreed.

      It is salami slicing with a magician’s microtome,

    394. Dougie Raine says:

      Not a clubbable sort but I’ve just joined the SNP. I believe the SNP and other pro-indy parties must immediately take the opportunity to drastically reduce Labour’s “traditional” support in Scotland. Glasgow and North Lanark have shown the way. The younger generation must be encouraged to look further than the blinkered unionist parties and policies which their elders slavishly followed.

    395. Robert Louis says:

      Given the SNP has doubled in size, will they now need a bigger venue for their conference in November?

    396. Training Day says:

      @Muttley

      Nope, still don’t get why we have to change focus.

      But as long as we get to the desired goal one way or another I’ll be happy.

    397. Nana Smith says:

      Did Broon promise home rule and if he did on whose authority. I smell shite…

      https://twitter.com/dundee_dee/status/514348137029595136/photo/1

    398. Swami Backverandah says:

      Hiya
      Just a thought regarding SNP HQ and Peter Murrell’s twitter feed.

      I’m not on twitter but perhaps someone who is could send a shout out to PM or Nicola S at SNP HO, and tell them it would be great if they mentioned the increase in the Greens and other YES Indy Alliance parties memberships.
      I’m sure it’s a very exhilarating time for SNP re memberships, and it wouldn’t hurt to mention the others – tallied up they give a truer picture – and it never hurts to remember your mates. 🙂
      Cheers.

    399. Bugger (the Panda) says:

      @ Training Days

      “It doesn’t matter whether it’s a white cat or a black, I think; a cat that catches mice is a good cat.”

      Deng Xiaoping

    400. Jim McIntosh says:

      @crisiscult

      “any views on a poll BT trumpeting that only 25-39 voted yes”

      I wondered when something like this would happen. This might be based on Lord Ashcroft’s poll which showed YES ahead in ages 16-17, 25-34, 35-44, 45-54. With NO ahead in 18-24, 55-64, 65+. See sample sizes below.

      Age (sample size) (Vote % Yes/No)
      16-17 (14) (71/29)
      18-24 (84) (48/52)
      25-34 (263) 59/41)
      35-44 (384) (53/47)
      45-54 (415) (52/48)
      55-64 (399) (43/57)
      65+ (488) (27/73)

      16-17 year voters would be cancelled out by the 18-24 due to the survey size. I’m not a statistician but similarly lumping all the samples from 45-65+ and doing some number crunching would probably make anything above 49 a NO.

      All irrelevant anyway, there were still 1.6 million voted YES.

    401. Bugger (the Panda) says:

      Robert Louis

      Is there a venue which could take all of us (joined yesterday)?

      Glasgow Armadillo or the SECC?

    402. desimond says:

      laughing here

      Just got this from mate:

      Wee guy that runs the roll shop across in Alexandra Parade does food named with current themes and events.

      So it’s post indyref week: Shitebag Panini!!

    403. Robert Louis says:

      I don’t want to bang a drum, but.. Can somebody please explain to me (and I’m not being flippant), why if you spend two years trying to achieve something, and almost succeed, you then MUST give up and try to achieve something different?

      Serious point. I just cannot fathom the logic that says, oh we failed to get independence this time, so let’s forget that and campaign for devo max. The only people pushing that line, and they are pushing it hard, are unionists, the very same people who like to keep telling us the result ‘is the settled will’.

      Other countries in similar situations have just kept going. I cannot get this notion that we MUST capitulate. Who said we must???? Who made this bizarre law?

      The result wasn’t the SETTLED will at all. It was the bullied will, the terrified will, the frightened will, the lied to will, the deceived will, the ‘oh my god I’ll get deported’ will. Indeed you could say it was all of those combined, but you could certainly NEVER say it was anything remotely akin the settled will.

    404. Midgehunter says:

      Independence or DEVO-max?

      We wanted to take the lift up to the top floor but only got halfway, so that means we have to walk up past the other floors (mini Devo’s). It’s more tiring but we still get there.

    405. Bugger (the Panda) says:

      @ Midgehunter

      Wonder if we have an electrician to shortcircuit the control panel and take us all the way up?

    406. Ananurhing says:

      Training day @3.00pm
      “I know that the prospects of Westminster agreeing to what we would understand as devo max are zero.”

      I don’t think we necesserily require their agreement. We are sovereign. We hold the cards. They can’t afford to try to turn us down.

      A multi option consultative referendum would be inarguable, and we all know which way that would go. FFA.

    407. Midgehunter says:

      Robert Louis

      “Given the SNP has doubled in size, will they now need a bigger venue for their conference in November?”

      There’s an aircraft carrier in Rosyth waiting for suitable use.

    408. Robert Louis says:

      Here’s how I see the devo max idea in a nutshell.

      I tried to climb mount everest. I almost made it, but failed at the last 100M. Never again, it’s Ben Nevis for me from now on. Much easier. Everest wasn’t really important anyway.

    409. Robert Peffers says:

      @James Dow says: 23 September, 2014 at 10:36 am:

      “The thing that disturbs me the most about this site and other similar sites, is the lack of courage from all sorts of people pontificating their opinion, with an alias”

      Oh! Get off your stupid hobby horse and wise up. We are talking the real World here not the fantasy one. I worked almost all my life at the cutting edge of electronics for the Government and signed the Official Secrets Act. I wasn’t frightened of using my own name but by doing so I prevented myself from advancement through the ranks. I didn’t care as I worked for the pay and not for the glory but I understand why others used a noms de Guerre. All who are working in any government job, or members of the forces, must be careful and that applies from MPs to council employees.

      People have often good reasons for not using their own name and those reasons are many..

    410. chalks says:

      @Robert Louis, NO ONE is saying that we forget independence but the fact of the matter is, that 25% of no voters did so on the belief that we will get more powers.

      These are ‘soft no’s’ that still believe in Westminster. We KNOW that Devo Max will not be delivered, the soft no’s do not know this, if we go for that, then we might just get their support in the 2015 General Election as Labour will not be pursuing Devo Max. When Westminster fail to deliver it, we then have a logical reason to turn to the soft no’s and say, look, they don’t want to give up power.

      No one is advocating walking away from the independence argument, but we must be careful that we are not locked into a battle of tactical voting AGAINST the snp in the general election. If we pursue independence, THAT WILL happen, you would have the unionist voters voting for the strongest candidate and we just don’t have the numbers for it.

      Box clever and we get it all.

    411. lochside says:

      Those who want the gradualist approach back to another Referendum may find it confounded by Time and Demographics.

      The great majority of English residents, both old and middle class voted ‘NO’, even in the traditional SNP voting areas where they have been voting nationalist, but only through self interest ( bus passes, community charge freeze etc.). They have no interest nor desire in a free independent ‘Scotlandshire’. This group has trebled in size over 30 years due to unbalanced economic conditions between the two countries which have permitted them to sell up and buy bigger and more comfortable houses and jobs up here. With a ‘No’vote this immigration will continue as young ,jobless and disenfranchised Scots leave in the opposite direction for other parts.

      The other main ‘NO’ group..the Orange/Rangers lumpen proles and the rural tories are also immune to the lure of a free Scotland. The former brainwashed by three hundred years of bigotry under a supine and historically bigoted ‘kirk’, whilst the latter…also brainwashed by our msm, but conservative (both small ‘c’ and big ‘C’), predominately old and poor, are just feart.

      As demonstrated last Friday, the Orange element, a brutal,fascist reactionary ragbag army are being allowed to rise up. The collusion by the media in ignoring this is as worrying as Police Scotland’s (deliberate?) ineptitude at quelling this attack by the neantherdals on decent Scottish youth.

      The Scottish Government must crack down hard on this advance guard of British reaction.The time may not be right for the banning of the Orange Order, but it’s time must come. The holding to account of the BBC must also be a priority. They cannot be allowed to get away with the calumny of changing a Referendum result in the way they did with Gordon Brown leading the charge.

      Mass non-payment of the tv licence must also be part of the revived YES movement. Along with a boycott list of business, banks etc. who backed ‘NO’. The churches must be condemned publicly for their toadying( yet again) to the British State. We must make it clear that there is no reconciliation…there are two Scotlands…and only one must emerge..the Free and Independent one.

      We cannot change the voting patterns of this large minority of voters for the reasons given. However, by targeting the remainder of Soft ‘NO’s i.e. the ones who are not culturally or bigoted against an independent Scotland, and in next few months, that there is no other alternative for us as a viable nation state than full Independence, we can negate this awful result before time and tide push us into historical insignificance.

    412. gillie says:

      Use both independence and devo-max as yard sticks for comparing any devolution proposals that comes from this commission and from Westminster.

      Ex

      Power—Independence—Devo-Max—Smith Commission—Westminster

      Economy—-Yes————–Yes—————–No———————No

    413. Edmund says:

      Whatever you do up there, you must ensure that Scotland is never again taken in by New Labour lies. If people want to vote Tory let them be honest and vote Tory, not Red Tory and lie to themselves that they are somehow voting for social justice.

      Labour’s mask slipped yet again during the referendum campaign. The idea that Labour stands up for working people must surely now be impossible to justify. Lying until they’re blue in the face that the NHS is safe, that Scotland has the powers to protect it, that the way to help people in Liverpool and Manchester is for Scotland’s own people to remain under the Westminster thumb.

      The best thing that campaigners up there can do is to make sure that people do not forget Labour’s betrayals. Kick them out of Scotland, and take your democracy back from the three ‘main’ parties who are now almost completely indistinguishable.

    414. gillie says:

      Use both independence and devo-max as yard sticks for comparing any devolution proposals that comes from this commission and from Westminster.

      Ex

      Power, Independence, Devo-Max, Smith Commission, Westminster

      Economy, Yes, Yes, No, No

    415. Chic McGregor says:

      I do not think the 65+ and even the 55-64 figures would surprise many. Older folk are bound to be more susceptible to scaremongering, especially on pension provision. Plus many have little or no effective access to the internet and rely on the BBC and the rest of the MSM for their information.

      Hopefully, if an indy strategy which Stuart and the rest of us can get behind eventually emerges, we might get another Wee Blue Book from him and possibly even a Wee Grey Book/Supplement.

      The 18-24 group although essentially 50:50 to within normal sample size error, is slightly anomalous compared to the before group and after groups.
      I’m wondering if that is down to student culture. You know, when a lot of people become Communist/International Socialist for a few years.

      Or as Dennis Healey once quoted of his father “If you are not a Communist when you are 21 there is something wrong with your heart. If you are still a Communist when you are 31 then there is something wrong with your head.”

      A starkness of statement not many of us would agree with, but it serves to make the point.

    416. kerry pippin says:

      Full text shows that Cameron is trying to please MPs from the rest of the UK by putting spin on the message … the message is that as tax – raising powers are devolved, the fraction subject to the Barnett formula decreases, which we know already. One part quotes a Tory MP, apparently after the Chequers meeting:

      ‘While the theme of the meeting was English home rule, some MPs made plain their discontent about Barnett. “Some still vehemently dislike the fact that Scots get more than the English,” said one. “The majority present agreed that a promise is a promise. But the key to it is fiscal devolution. Let them set their own rate of income tax, and then keep that tax and a bit extra, and then the Barnett formula doesn’t apply to a greater sum of money any more.’

      ‘The key to it is fiscal devolution’ – isn’t that what we keep saying? Wouldn’t a good first step be the devolution of ALL tax-raising (and spending) powers? And is this article telling us that Tory backbenchers actually want more fiscal devolution, because they want to get shot of us? And that’s exactly what we want too…

      (Of course, the article doesn’t go into the fact that our revenues are more than our spending, and that these would also be lost to the rest of the UK with full fiscal devolution; but I don’t expect many English Tory backbenchers know that.)

      I’d love to post the full text to see what people think. I can see that it looks at first sight like the PM wriggling out of a promise, but that may be almost an instinct by now after he’s been a while in the job; I find what the backbenchers are saying more interesting and it might be an opportunity for progress.

      Stu, will it get you sued if I post full text?

    417. I am still devastated by the result of the Indy Ref.

      By 6:30 early on Friday morn I was climbing frantically into big bottles of Stella pouring OVD Rum (Old Vatted Demerara) down my neck in 3 x fingers of red-eye measures.

      Later on Friday I went out and bought more.

      Totally and utterly – Inconsolable with grief.

      After more than 50 years of writing to MSM “FOR INDY”, I find myself betrayed by fellow Scots who are self-serving pensioners, idiot Tories and SLAB scab liars who return to the WM Trough as though nothing has erupted.?

      The inevitable question arises now that I have returned to sobriety – Have I wasted my life.?
      Wasted waiting and working for an impossible dream.?

      At some vague point in my drunk – I found the story of that young lady who has severe lung and breathing afflictions but with an Oxygen bottle strapped to her back managed to emblazon “YES” ON THE ANCIENT ROCK OF EMBRA CASTLE.

      The inspiration engendered by her action moved me to tears.

      The body and brain shuddering defeat still hurts.

      I am kinda lost now. Don`t know where to turn.

      DIET Devo-Max is anathema. FFS.

    418. Ron Maclean says:

      The argument against gradualism was summed up by George Robertson who said that devolution would kill independence ‘stone dead’.

    419. desimond says:

      @WantonWampum.

      Dont know where to turn?

      Hows about Belfast?
      🙂

    420. Robert Louis says:

      Midgehunter,

      At last a REAL use for the aircraftless carriers in Rosyth – a floating venue for the SNP conference.

      Excellent.

    421. Chic McGregor says:

      Put a RENEGE MONITOR sign up in our shop window first couple of ‘clippings’ under it all ready.

    422. Chic McGregor says:

      Robert Louis
      “Midgehunter,

      At last a REAL use for the aircraftless carriers in Rosyth – a floating venue for the SNP conference.

      Excellent.”

      Torpedo alert.

    423. Davythemidge says:

      Beware…….the Westminster trap has been set. Cameron is already saying that there is a reduction in Scottish funding on the way and the Barnett formula is under threat. If Holyrood wants to maintain the level of services that we want, we will be forced into tax increases. The SNP will then be hung out to dry. John Swinney has done a great job so far balancing the books, but there is a limit. We really do need to mount a serious resistance to all attempts to cut our budgets. The UK Labour Party must be exposed for proposing cuts (Ed Balls etc) and in so doing make Scottish Labour squirm. We can’t let the last seven years be nullified by unionist cuts.

    424. clachangowk says:

      @ Robert Louis

      It has to be understood that Unionists are NOT offering Deo-max. They are talking about a few percent on income tax and it is not clear to me what else. however, they and the press call this devo-max and people believe them.

      The SG should offer to agree to full devo-max as the minimum acceptable and spell out what that is: All income tax, corporation tax, APD, crown estate income; 90% of oil revenues etc. Say clearly what SG will be responsible for – everything but Defense and Foreign affairs but has right to decide how much to contribute towards these.

      There is no way Westminster will accept this but it will put them on the back foot, enable the SG to reject their paltry offerings as completely unacceptable ( and in no way devo-max) and an insult to the wishes of the 45 percent. It will be made clear to all that Independence is the only viable way for Scotland.

      The alternative is that the unionist parties will offer the minimum they think they can get away with, call it devo- max and blame Scotland if it is not accepted

    425. bookie from hell says:

      cam caught on camera saying

      saying queen purred down the phone after no vote

      it should of never been that close

    426. HandandShrimp says:

      Robert

      I see the mountain analogy as more, we didn’t quite make the peak of Everest…while we wait to prepare for another attempt we practice on nearby smaller mountains to keep our hand in.

    427. msean says:

      Breaking news, Cameron is laughing at you Scotland. Laughing at you.In New York. Thanks and a big shout out to all those no voters,,enjoy the nothing you are about to receive and be thankful. Enjoy voting Labour and getting what you deserve.

    428. goulashman says:

      DavytheMidge – I share this anger with you. The lying scum ….. they are intent on destroying any national spirit in Scotland. The ext target of Big Business, the Tory/Labour/LibDem Party is the SNP. Destroy it by starving it of funds necessary to govern. The BBC and MSM have already begun this corrosive work. The midge-minded pensioner and thyself-interested will quickly swallow this – we need toy beware thus to counter this evil intent.

    429. Viking Girl says:

      Sorry, but I said this yesterday, the obedience of these No voters is embarrassing. Gordon Brown stood up, gave a speech that he couldn’t have given without Cameron’s permission, next thing a rush to vote No. Brainwashing is a better word for it than speech, and the loyal Brits did as they were told, again. I’d say they’ll never learn to think for themselves, but it goes beyond that. They want to be conned. Life would be empty without it.
      Fiona, there is no length too far to be gone in London, to provide infrastructure etc. It’s a given. Think of Cross Rail and how fast that has been put in place, and ask yourself when we might get a motorway across the middle of Scotland, from Glasgow to Edinburgh I mean.

    430. goulashman says:

      THE self-interested.

    431. Andy-B says:

      I really hope the Chuckle Brothers aka, Miliband and Cameron, fail to deliver on their meagre powers for Scotland, and a sense of injustice is felt across the land.

    432. Robert Peffers says:

      @Fred says: 23 September, 2014 at 10:47 am:

      “Do the Scottish people a big favour and solve the conundrum of the West Lothian Question at the same time by booting Curran, Davidson, Murphy, plus the Alexander Ugly Sisters et al, out of Westminster at the general election.”

      Anyone who thinks there is any other way to solve the “West Lothian Question”, than booting the de Facto Parliament of England out of the Parliament of the United Kingdom to put it on a level playing field with the other three countries in the United Kingdom. That is the ONLY way to prevent the 533 English MPs in the Parliament of the United Kingdom from donning their Country of England hats and reluctantly Devolving their de facto English parliament’s powers to their subservient three country devolved administrations in spite of the 117 non-English MPs in the house who do not wear two hats.

      The only other way was tried before and I know several Guys, (none of them Foxes), so that would probably fail again too.

    433. TJenny says:

      Just seen young girl, in school uniform, first time voter and voted YES, being interviewed by BBC and said she wanted the young to have a vote for all elections in future. When asked what she would now after the No vote, she stated she was going to sign up to SNP when she gets home. : -)

      Fair warms the cockles of my heart to see the young intention to stay involved. OK, I know she’s only one, still – that expressing in Scotland that can cover a multitude of sins. 😉

    434. Ken500 says:

      It wasn’t pensioners, 18-24 years, MSM, Ian Wood or Andy Murray etc that affected the vote. It was three lying, cheating, criminal ,Unionists politicians who illegally gerrymander and interfered in the Referendum making promises they would not and could not keep. Cameron, Brown & Clegg.

      It was in the bag 60%+ YES. Until Cameron, Brown, Clegg maliciously and illegally intervened. 25% of the (No) voters then misguidedly voted No.

      Vote the Unionist Parties out of Scotland. Independence will come that way. Another route.

    435. Bronwen says:

      Finally crawling out to face the world again. It’s been a hard few days. I thought I was about to live my retirement years in an independent Scotland. Now I probably won’t, but I’m going to have a damn good try at helping to give the younger generations that privilege. We need to know and fully understand why people voted No if we want them to join us. This is best done if they feel their opinions are welcome without recrimination and we genuinely listen. I don’t feel able to do that just yet, but I hope I will when the hurt dies down.

      There’s a type of No voter who would always vote No. Proud to be Scottish, delighted to be united and all that. And the people with comfy lives who like living in their bubble, and those who hate change. I expect we’ll see a fair few delighteds at Murrayfield belting out Flower of Scotland, proudly sponsored by RBS. I hope they’ll be able to hear our laughs of derision. They’re lost to our cause. The rest hopefully are not.

      Sadly we’re all going to pay the price of broken promises, swingeing cuts and revenge politics against Scotland. I’m going to try and not be too hard on No voters who complain (except the delighteds who will be well cushioned anyway). I’m not a saint, but I hope I’ll be able to put those feelings aside soon enough. My anger at the nasty and brutal tactics of politicians, media and big business is a different matter.

      My age group should accept their fair share of cuts, but let’s fight to protect the vulnerable and frail of all age groups. And when the cuts start to bite, let’s make it loud and clear that Westminster is to blame and not the Scottish Government.

      I’m not sure if this is off topic or not, apologies if it is, but am very new to commenting on the internet.

    436. TJenny says:

      Just seen young girl, in school uniform, first time voter and voted YES, being interviewed by BBC and said she wanted the young to have a vote for all elections in future. When asked what she would do now after the No vote, she stated she was going to sign up to SNP when she gets home. : -)

      Fair warms the cockles of my heart to see the young intention to stay involved. OK, I know she’s only one, still – that expression in Scotland that can cover a multitude of sins. 😉

    437. Phil Robertson says:

      What’s the problem with this one other than the misleading headline?

      It simply reflects that, as more tax revenue will be raised directly in Scotland, then less will flow from the Barnett formula. It’s there in the article as is further evidence of John Swinney’s lack of financial understanding. Did he really think Scotland would get extra direct tax-raising powers AND keep the same level of Barnett funding!

    438. Bugger (the Panda) says:

      TJ

      Seeing double today or was it twins?

    439. Dorothy Devine says:

      WantonWampum , it scares me that I am now 68 and may not get another chance to free my country . I didn’t get drunk but I am still having sudden emotional moments when I just want to weep for my country.

      On a brighter note , my badges and bangles in place , I took my pal out for a birthday lunch, as we left a lad with his leg in a stooky approached and I saw YES emblazoned thereon – fair cheered me up.

    440. David says:

      Ok im seeing a lot of negative people.

      Dont be. I could write a book on this but ill distill it to some quick points:

      1 – social justice is not going to happen under Westminster and in fact its only going to get worse. People are going to be continually disenfranchised.

      2 – we must spread the facts. Cold hard facts. No bias just facts. Arm yourself with knowledge and sources (i mean really have your sources ready) and take on everyone around you in debate.

      These 2 factors will have the country clamoring for more self determination before long.

    441. Ken500 says:

      The rest of the UK gets more Public money (pro rata) spent on the private sector(Westminster associates and their mates, including Scotland’s Oil revenues)

    442. fred blogger says:

      Bronwen
      i am a pensioner.
      like you i voted against poverty.
      which because of a no vote will rise.
      many who voted no are already seeing the error, as they see the broken promises mount up, coupled to the crashing of the NHS, their pensions and massive oil reserves are noted.
      rents will continue to rise, house building will continue to slump.
      free prescriptions etc will disappear.
      more millionaires will be created.
      the work house will soon be here.
      people will have to slog on until they drop, as retirement age goes up to 69, imagine being on jsa/esa until that age?

    443. Bugger (the Panda) says:

      @
      bookie from hell

      Do you have a reference for the Queen purring at the Ref result?

      🙂

    444. kestral says:

      The first thing you should do is examine what was done well and was was done badly

      Badly – too many t-shirts – balloons- pens – hats and foam hands

      not enough taking out full page adverts made to look like newspaper articles refuting each of the scare stories as they came along – the WBB did it in a oner – but yes scotland should have been doing it week in week out

      when the press won’t give you a fair hearing then buy a fair hearing

      Too many last week posters on billboard stating nothing more that “scotlands future in scotlands hands”

      that is not information – billboards and underground and bus advertising could have been used more effectively in each area to draw people to local sites for discussion

      When you look at how we won on social media hands down then I think part of the failing was turning that into traditional media

      any other suggestions on where we went wrong? – until you pan that out you can’t find where to go right

    445. desimond says:

      Interesting how people speculating on what various areas of YES campaign will or should do next

      The Big question is : WINGS

      Stu, take your time, then give us a sign!

    446. Robert Peffers says:

      @James123 says: 23 September, 2014 at 10:49 am:

      “Something else you should add to your list, please do not use cap locks.”

      Oh! Why not, James123? Does it hurt your ears? You see I’ve got hearing problems so speaking up a bit helps me a lot.

    447. TJenny says:

      Bugger(tP) – hiya, dinnae ken. Probs refreshing and didn’t get ‘duplicate’ message.

      Just heard SNP majority at Holyrood now down to one as John Wilson resigns from SNP, over decision on NATO. Seems he didn’t get the bit about ‘it’s not all about the SNP’ after the vote either. 🙁 Selfish man.

    448. ilyana says:

      Devolved Austerity! That is all!

    449. Bugger (the Panda) says:

      TJ

      Who got Margot’s seat.

      à propos John Wilson, somebody bought him?

    450. Bugger (the Panda) says:

      Wing very clunky here

    451. goulashman says:

      A REPUBLICAN Independent Scotland – let us continue to work for this –

    452. Fiona says:

      @ Phil Robertson

      The problem is that the barnett formula is criticised primarily on the grounds that it leads to more public spending in Scotland, allegedly. That does not happen to be true, but no surprise there. Changes which do not address that perceived problem are not going to satisfy the english electorate who have been told this is unfair (a charge they are depressingly apt to see as an argument)O. It follows that the reduction to the block grant is unlikely to be pound for pound with the scottish element of tax, because this is not two pools of money: it is one. The block grant is paid out of Scottish taxes at present: all of it.

      If the reduction were pound for pound then the devolved taxation
      powers are meaningless, as they were before. The only difference is that there will be a proportion of the tax already paid in Scotland which will not go south, but will be retained directly in Scotland. It may be that there will be scope for changing the structure of the tax bands, but that is far from certain – won’t happen if the labour party proposal is adopted, for example. Mr Swinney is correct in saying these are very modest proposals indeed: it is not he who is displaying a “lack of financial understanding”, for the vow was reported as being a promise of Devo max and it is nothing of the sort, on the limited proposals put forward so far.

      But it is more likely that the reduction will be greater than pound for pound so as to deal with the mythical “unfairness” which cannot now be buried as an issue. So the aim will be to reduce public spending in Scotland to the UK average (which is itself meaningless given regional disparities and the exclusion of a great deal of expenditure in London on the grounds that it is uk wide expenditure. That is an enormous cut to Scotland’s income, and no SG will be able to deal with it without very sharp reductions in services or very large increases in income tax. As other taxes are not to be devolved there is no scope for more imaginative ways of dealing with this. Full fiscal devolution is the only way this can be done fairly, and that is not on offer

      I do not think

    453. Robert Peffers says:

      CM says:
      23 September, 2014 at 10:32 am:

      “Can I join the SNP only by using paypal? I prefer not to use credit cards.

      I cannot remember how, as I had renewed by card on-line, but there was a brown envelope and a renewal form included in a envelope of other stuff from the SNP. Another thing, you can use a debit card, (or did you include them as credit Cards)?

    454. goulashman says:

      Now the knife comes from within -SOOOOO depressing – Wilson resigning now?

    455. TJenny says:

      Test

    456. A.N.Surgent says:

      Lifted from a tweet by Stacy Herbert
      “Scotland will now be hung, drawn and quartered.”

    457. Fiona says:

      @ kestral

      Without wishing to come over all Pollyanna, I think it is important not to lose sight of the fact that this campaign was notably successful just as it was. In face of blanket hostility and lies across the MSM engagement was really high and the vote for yes was stunning given where it started.

      We lost, and we cannot blink that. No doubt there are lessons which can be learned as well. But let us not be overly critical while we do that. We achieved a great deal if you look at the wide picture: much more than anyone could have predicted 2 years ago

    458. Dorothy Devine says:

      “cam caught on camera saying

      saying queen purred down the phone after no vote”

      Bookie , you have just made me into a republican.

    459. Fiona says:

      What?? The queen is George Galloway now??? Why was I not told?

    460. tartanfever says:

      Hold on about Wilson, just because he has resigned from the party does not mean he’s going to vote against SNP policy other than NATO.

      (I haven’t read any reports on what he’s said to be fair, he may have).

      So he will still support independence, he will still most likely vote to approve budget proposals and other legislation being passed.

    461. Robert Peffers says:

      @john king says:23 September, 2014 at 10:56 am:

      RMAC SAYS
      “I do think man landed on the moon,
      JFK Was killed by a lone gunman,(not the mafia)
      There is no such think as the Illuminati
      And Adolf Hitler did indeed die in the bunker,

      jus sayin s’all

      So you do believe that Elvis still works down the Chip shop then?

      DARFC

    462. manandboy says:

      I raised the Saltire in my garden yesterday.

      It’s 5ft x 3ft on a pole 22 feet high. (I had to raise it above trees)

      I’ve never done anything like that before.

      It will stay there till Independence day.

      Then it will stay there for as long as we live.

      And, d’you know what? I no longer have any inclination

      whatsoever to watch TV.

      I’ve got something to do which is far, far more important.

      In fact I don’t want to do much else besides achieving

      Independence for Scotland and caring for my family.

      I can easily understand anyone not wishing to adorn their

      garden with a Saltire, but if not, may I ask that you do

      SOMETHING to promote Scottish Independence – like joining

      the SNP at http://www.snp.org/join – if you haven’t already

      done so.

      Raise your flag – any way you want to.

    463. ChrisB says:

      Archive link for Cameron’s remark
      “the queen purred down the line”:
      https://archive.today/eLdQA

    464. Robert Louis says:

      So, John Wilson is leaving the SNP because of NATO. Sorry, but that’s just daft.

      In any political party, there will always be issues which some will disagree on, you look at the situation overall, and consider which party most closely represents your views. At present, the opinion of the SNP on NATO has zero impact upon UK membership of NATO – so it kind of doesn’t even matter. It is a policy stance which only becomes important if we become independent AND the SNP become an independent Government. So, to leave a political party over a stance which really does have ZERO impact, is just daft.

      This just sounds daft. Timed for max damage impact. A bit bad.

    465. Colin Church says:

      John Wilson – really? On NATO? Will now be independent and vote on issues on case by case basis. Well John, when do you expect the issue NATO memebership to come up in Holyrood? What a FUD. So expect our beloved MSM to run with this now and not the 50k, just in time for evening news. FUD.

    466. Robert Louis says:

      CM,

      You can join and pay the SNP by an annual payment, via post, and a paper form and pay by cheque or postal order.

      Call them and they will arrange to send you a form.

      call 0800 633 5432

    467. TJenny says:

      Bugger (tP) – I think there was an agreement that Margo’s seat wouldn’t be contested until the next Holyrood election in 2016, i.e. no by-election during the ref.

      However, how can her constituents not have a rep at Holyrood meantime?

      How ironic is it that as the SNP membership rises to 50k+, that a SNP MSP jumps ship. I hope he can be replaced with someone more committed to Scotland than to his own me, me, me politics.

    468. Ken500 says:

      More than delighted to give Ian Wood & wife a rest. That was the suggestion weeks ago. The notion that Independence was lost because, Ian Wood made a statement or his wife is a better together campaigner is nonsense. They can do what they like it is a free country. That is the point, which has been repeatedly pointed out and is not borne out by the facts or statistics. Ian Wood has been saying the Oil is running out for forty years. No one listens. It is one person’s opinion with one vote.

      The Referendum was lost because of the intervention of three criminal Unionists who illegally gerrymandered and made promises they could not and would not keep. Cameron, Brown and Clegg. 25% of No voters changed their vote. Before their action it was 60%+ YES. In spite of what Ian Wood or his wife said or did.

      Now Unionists Parties must be voted out. Out of Holyrood and Westminster.

    469. bookie from hell says:

      SNP majority 1

    470. Bugger (the Panda) says:

      Libbie has her erse oot the windae, just like in the Millar’s tale in Chaucer’s Canterbury Tales.

    471. Karmanaut says:

      A lot of people arguing about Independence vs Devo-Max.

      Is it just me or is there some core confusion here. Aren’t we talking about “Independence via Indyref 2 (15 years away)” and “Independene via The Stepping Stone of Devo Max (Devoref in 4-5 years, high chance of success)”?

      I don’t know any Yes voter who wants Devo Max as the end result. We voted yes for independence. But many of us see it now as the most effective route to independence.

      55% of voters just said no to indy because they saw it as a huge step into the unknown. If we go for devo max (we use Gordon Brown’s promise of Home Rule against them, because what they’ll offer will be pitifully short of that) we will get it in 4-5 years.

      Then independence isn’t a huge leap into the unknown any more. Because we’ve already taking the biggest step. It’s just saying “we want to control our own defence and foreign policy.” That’s a small step.

      I think Devo max is the fastest and most certain way to total independence.

    472. Ken500 says:

      If Cameron wants English Parliament for English people (fine) he will have to stop spending UK money. No taxation without representation.

    473. nigel says:

      Now that SLAB are disintegrating before our very eyes, and the SNP are enjoying a resurgence in membership, I would surmise that London and Washington will deem Scotland ” an unstable regime” politically, since the last bastion of unionism in Scotland, the labour party, will soon be gone.

      They will probably conclude that it would be wise to remove the subs together with their associated nuclear ordnance from Scottish territory asap.

      Be interesting to look out for straws in the wind, methinks……………………..

    474. bald eagle says:

      Iain Gray’s Subway Lament 1:22

      cheers sorry about the caps lock thanks for the number

      anybody else that gave advice i knew i could get advice here quicker than phoning around thanks everyone was busy so just catching up

    475. cynical lowlander says:

      @ Bugger,

      “Speak pretty bird, I know not where thou art………”

      🙂

    476. desimond says:

      John Wilson resigns from the party…surely this is one of those areas where the public should be able to says “No! I voted for what you stood for under your party banner…if you leave the party, we want a by-election!”

      Im sure we could have that in our new constitution..ohh, bugger.

    477. Stevie boy says:

      Tv licence just cancelled and feel the better for doing so!!

      Anyone else fancy it then the number is..

      0300 7906092

      I enjoyed telling them why I was cancelling it 🙂

    478. IcySpark says:

      @manandboy

      Does it say Scotland the Brave on it?

      I noticed for the first time a Saltire go up over trees yesterday in my South Lanarkshire town. Lifted my sports no end 🙂

    479. muttley79 says:

      Fiona’s post at 5:31 is spot on imo. We gave it all we had, the effort of the Yes campaign was immense. I think collectively, in different ways, people threw themselves into it and gave everything they had. In these circumstances that is all you can really ask for. The array of powerful powers we were up against was just too much at this time.

    480. msean says:

      Sounds like The Queen of Scots isn’t too popular right now.

    481. muttley79 says:

      Not really surprised that John Wilson has resigned now. It was rumoured in the aftermath of the NATO decision that he was seriously unhappy.

    482. Clootie says:

      The posts are starting to lose that central focus of a united vision.
      Some of the comments are very negative and far from constructive.

      We got as far as far as we did by focusing on what unites us instead of what divides us.
      I attended New Deer on Sunday to listen to Alex Salmond. He said “…join the SNP ,join the Greens, join the SSP – join anybody but stay active”

      We need to continue to fight for those who suffer the most under Westminster Politics.
      Our next opportunity to unsettle them is the 2015 GE.

      Don’t be angry with your friends. Be angry at the enemy.

    483. liz says:

      I’ve just suddenly hit a wall of sadness – it’s going to be like this for all of us – up then down.

      It’s the thought of all the cuts coming our way . trident replacement etc.

    484. Edward says:

      Either Cameron is embellishing the story or if true, then the Queen no longer has a place in Scotland’s future

      I’m now leaning towards a Republic 🙂

      http://www.bbc.com/news/uk-politics-29335028

    485. Callum says:

      Laura Kuensaberg just tweeted that private polling on the No side had Yes at 53%, which appears to be almost the same as Yes’s private polling. It might explain the last minute panic Devo-pledge measure to encourage No voters to the polling station or to encourage soft No’s to vote No.

      https://twitter.com/bbclaurak/status/514444744290992130



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