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Our man on the scene

Posted on September 24, 2014 by

There’s been a lot of talk on Twitter and Facebook of irregularities at the referendum counts, leading to accusations that the referendum was somehow fixed, culminating in a petition to have the procedures investigated, or even the referendum re-run. As with most conspiracy theories, this is largely down to people not understanding what they’re seeing, as the videos flying around the internet showing bits of the count have been removed from their context.


For example, there’s a video showing a counting table with a No sign on it with a pile of ballot papers, with the top paper showing a cross beside Yes. To the uninformed observer, this looks like Yes votes have been dumped on a table of No votes; but in reality, the pile of votes were still waiting to be split up into Yes and No at this point, and if the person making the video had bothered to check, they’d have found this out.

So here’s a quick guide to how the count worked, as observed by one of this website’s own official monitoring agents (specifically me).

In the days running up to the 18th, there were daily postal vote opening sessions, where ballot boxes containing postal votes were opened and the contents verified. This began by counting the number of envelopes (envelope ‘B’), which were then opened to reveal the postal voting statement and a second envelope (envelope ‘A’) containing the actual ballot paper. The postal voting statements were then checked against the list of postal voters, the information checked for completeness and correctness, and then packaging them up into sealed packets.

After this, the ballot papers were removed from their ‘A’ envelopes, kept face down so no one could see the vote, the number on the ballot paper checked against the number on the envelope to make sure they matched, and then placed into the ballot box. Some final verification checks were made, then the ballot box was sealed, ready to go to the final count.

The part about the postal votes being PLACED into the ballot box is important, as one of the most popular pieces of “evidence” circulating shows a ballot box being opened with the contents being “suspiciously” neatly stacked. Well yes, that’s because they weren’t posted through the top like the ballots in polling stations. (We know these were postal ballots because the “counting under way” caption suggests this was at the beginning of the count, not halfway through – see next section.)

So, at 10pm on the 18th September, the count began. Obviously ballot boxes were still at their polling stations at 10pm, so the count began with the ballot boxes containing postal votes, as these were already at the counting venues, ready to be counted. The first stage was counting the total number of ballots. This was done by putting the ballots into piles of 100, under the watchful gaze of counting agents from both sides (at the Aberdeen count there were so many counting agents for Yes that it was possible for people to take turns).

This was when counting agents were able to “sample” the votes, by taking tallies of the number of Yes and No votes being put into the piles (this is how people at election counts always seem to know the result long before it’s actually announced). These piles were then rubber-banded and given a slip of paper identifying the box they came from. Again, this explains one of the popular pieces of “evidence”, that claims to show a counter writing on a ballot paper. No, they were writing on one of these slips of paper.

The next stage was splitting the votes, when the piles of votes were actually put into piles of Yes and No (as well as a pile for ballots that hadn’t been completed properly). When a Yes or No basket was looking a bit full, their contents would be transferred to one of the applicable Yes or No counting tables to be counted. Counting officers would also check the pile of improperly completed ballots to put those where the intent was obvious into the Yes or No pile, and remove those that required further adjudication.

At several intervals throughout the count, the referendum agents would be gathered to witness the adjudication of improperly completed ballots, and argue the case for them to be included or rejected, according to which side they appeared to favour (and to despair at the number of people who find it so difficult to simply put a cross in a box).

Papers were double-counted, with counters working in pairs to double-check each other’s results. Every stage was scrutinised by counting agents, who had the power to step in at any point if they felt something was wrong. Occasionally a counter would put a ballot into the wrong Yes or No pile simply through human error, but this would be picked up, either straight away by the counting agent or the counter themselves, or by their colleague when the papers were recounted.

There are too many eyes watching for anything dodgy to happen, and trying to fix the count would require pretty much every single member of the counting staff to be in on the scam – and these are council workers known to both sides of the political divide.

Yes lost because we started off from somewhere between 25% and 30%, and had to face the full wrath of the British state, the media and corporate interests, not to mention people’s natural resistance to change – no matter how ridiculous Gordon Brown’s devolution timetable was, or the unionists’ recent track record of enhanced devolution, it was clearly enough to convince wavering No voters to give the union another chance. Pain can make critical faculties go out the window.

However, we certainly didn’t lose because of shenanigans at the counts, and perpetuating such stories only hinders the attempts that are currently being made to move on from the result and onto the second phase of this wide-ranging and thriving independence movement (Women For Independence and the Radical Independence Campaign are already planning their next conferences in the coming weeks).

As an official referendum agent for Wings Over Scotland who witnessed the counting procedures first-hand, I hope these words might carry at least a bit of weight amongst online activists. Believe me, if anything dodgy had been happening, this vile cybernat would have been screaming it from the rafters.

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891 to “Our man on the scene”

  1. Morag says:

    I wish there was some way of blocking people on this site, or putting them on ignore. There comes a point where you realise that reason is not going to be listened to.

  2. Devereux says:

    @ Morag ‘We did not lose the referendum because of 400,000 postal votes .’ I agree. I think many of us take our lodestone from Morag. And I trust Stu. They are trying to divert us and make us look like loons – we are in a whole new war. The best – and we are because we have justice on our side – adapt and move on. A hard pill. But what’s a few years more when the goal is so worthwhile.

  3. Chickenhawk2 says:

    I was at a polling station in West Glasgow.

    With me was a labour party member who had been high up at one time, now in back in academia.

    I had been spouting off that we were going to win by a good margin, when he told me the No research indicated they were going to win handsomely. This was at about 9.30ish that evening. Perhaps all that data from the secret UK Gov. polling that we all paid for, passed on to their friends at Better Together.

    AND it was like a meeting of Labour Friends of the Union as the seniors all came along to vote NO.

  4. heraldnomore says:

    Getting bored with this folks. This ain’t healing, this is picking at festering running sores. Let them scab over please.

    What’s been happening at the BlabFest today? Someone must have been making a tit of themselves. Burnham rousing the rabble – he’s the one that wants to merge the NHS bodies isn’t he?

  5. liz says:

    @Derick fae Yell – Why do you think there was such a large No vote in Orkney/Shetland.

  6. Nana Smith says:

    I’ve come back to the site several times today since I posted on this article by Doug Daniel.[first post]

    Each time I feel more down than the time before. This will suit the NO side, getting everyone all het up and arguing amongst ourselves.

    Time to move on, there is much to do.

  7. fred blogger says:

    people heal in their very own ways, and @ their own pace, over what ever the individual human beings has to.
    let them be and let it be.
    4 things 4 healing; time, space, truth, and anger!
    imo we was robbed, but not in the ballot count, that was done superbly.

  8. YESGUY says:

    I am way out of my depth here but have a few young folk joining the SNP/Greens etc. These folk are raging cos they lost. Chatting away today they all said they could have done more. good for them.

    I have told them to join one of the indi parties and be prepared to canvass and promote your views. They did join and are anxious to get to work. I don’t know what more advise to give as i am unsure of the “Tactics” for the GE .

    My hope is the young are put into action soon as they will lose interest if they think it’s taking too long to organise. We really need a proper plan of action and quickly cos the GE is 6 months away. That’s very quick considering we worked on the YES vote for years.

    Any info on developments would be appreciated .

    I helped over 20 people get to the polls last time. this time i will double my efforts. I have their support so i am talking for 20. That’s just me .

    Get talking folks. The promises are already being thrown on the fire. We have lost because too many believed in the VOW. We have ammo enough but we have to get down to business now.

    Oh and stop feeding the trolls. Although on this occasion i would not blame you for telling them to go take a flying ***K first.

  9. Robert Peffers says:

    Dave McEwan Hill says: 24 September, 2014 at 5:34 pm:

    “Can we abandon any talk of Full Fiscal Autonomy. Like “Devo max” and federalism it is a deceit and a diversion. The only way you can have FFA is through independence.”

    I’m with you, Dave, but I’ll go even further. As long as the elected United Kingdom Parliament at Westminster remains also the unelected de facto parliament of the country of England then it is, in reality, a case of these 533 elected members from English constituencies forcing the best interests of the country of England upon the peoples of Scotland, Wales and N. Ireland.

    While we only have a collective total of 117 members to defend our collective rights. Worse still a large number of those 117 members elected to Westminster by the peoples of Scotland, Wales and N. Ireland are loyal members of the three London Unionist parties who would rather see any one of those London Unionist parties in office than any party from the country that elected them.

    I often see commenters from Scotland ask the question, “Dae ye think wi zip/button up the back o wir heids”? To those who ask yet have not awakened to the fact that Westminster is the Parliament of the Country of England and is now about to ban your elected members from voting on what England claims are England only matters.

    Yet, as England has no block grant and is funded as, “The United Kingdom”, by the United Kingdom Treasury then the stark answer to your question is – YES folks you do indeed button/zip up the back o yer heids.

  10. @Morag says:

    Just saw a really good tweet.

    “To argue with a person who has renounced the use of reason is like administering medicine to the dead.” – Thomas Paine

    It worked for Gordon Brown.

  11. Erling Mortensen says:

    As a foreigner (Danish) I don’t understand, that the ballots have to be transported at all. When we vote in Denmark, the ballots are counted at the voting station.

  12. Calgacus says:

    @handclapping,why are you asking me why big jock said such and such? I didnt call anyone a double agent. There have been many cases of electoral fraud using postal votes in the past. It is in need of reform.

  13. handclapping says:

    As the owner of this site said
    We lost. There was no conspiracy. Now let’s get to work winning.

  14. A.N.Surgent says:


    You must be blue in the face by now and suffering from a repetitive strain injury. 🙂

  15. caledonia says:

    O/T question when i click on the wings store all the prices are in $ is there a way to change this.

    Or maybe we are better together with the Americans as well (joke)

    p.s just joined the SNP as well

  16. @ Morag
    Americans and Russians stirring the pot causing hoaxes.

    Hmmmmm , Is that `Factual Knowledge` Morag.

  17. Chris Darroch says:

    Insufficient explanation of blank backed ballots so far.
    Firstly @handclapping has been curiously pointed in putting down both mine and @bigjock’s complaints !!??

    Secondly the suggestion by @bobsinclair that the blank back concerns were “utter garbage ” is too simplistic.

    His reasoning is the great difficulty he perceives in tallying the number of votes placed in the box at polling station with the number received at count; given an assumption that they could have been switched.

    Surely for example, the fact is that a list of those who had voted had been ticked off in every single polling station. Given access to such a list; anyone wanting to place the correct switched number of ballots into a fraudulent box for the count; could simply look at that list of ticked off names and count them up.

  18. Oui Things says:

    My partner and I received polling cards for our old address (which was in a affluent scheme in our old town.) through redirection service by post office. Yet we had registered to vote at our new address. (A new estate £200000+ houses, think squeaky bum time for the newly mortgaged)

    A postie friend told me of polling cards and postal votes being redirected south of the border. And condemned return to sender (people having left address without redirecting) polling cards open to misuse.

    I can’t be arsed with conspiracy theories. But you’re a complete fucking idiot to discount the possibility that the UK were going to let billions upon billions of £’s go without using the relevant agencies at their disposal.

    Not one bead of sweat would have rolled down one crack of an arse to pull a east one. Remember prism amongst other intelligence tools. Quarter of a million votes would be rather easy to obtain across a country.

  19. muttley79 says:

    I think from now on if people continue to push this rigged referendum theory without offering credible evidence, it really is better just to ignore them. It is troll like behaviour; they are trying to waste people’s time, start disputes and infighting. There really is no point in engaging with it any longer.

  20. Robert Peffers says:


    Just listened to the press statement from the Ministry of Propaganda, (a.k.a. The BBC), By David Cameron. He is talking about the United Kingdom but listen to the actual words. Not a single mention of, “The United Kingdom”, in the entire news item. Dave claim is full of Britain & British but Dave is not the Prime Minister of Britain, he is Prime Minister of the United Kingdom and he is not taking Britain to war he is taking the United Kingdom to War and the BBC is doing the same it is all Britain and British but what of the four non-United Kingdom parts of Britain?

    Just how bare-faced arrogant can you get? Remember this is the arrogant people who have the brass neck to tell us if we leave the Parliament that is the de facto parliament of England we will cease to be British.

  21. YESGUY says:

    Agreed Muttley

    We need a new topic. Stu if your reading this …

  22. one less day says:

    A new process for registering is being implemented. Individuals will have to register as opposed to households DOB and NI numbers will be required

    This has come about as nearly 10% more 16/17 years old were registered in Dundee than there are in the city

  23. Bob Sinclair says:

    You know who you are:

    I hardly think it’s patronising to point out the appropriate place to air your views about conspiracies

    I merely pointed it out because I am not going to say nothing when I see peoples integrity being questioned.

    Morag has many years experience of the procedures involved & I think I will trust her judgement on this above the judgement of someone who sees conspiracy at every turn.

    This constant white noise of ‘fix’ is damaging to our future cause & will only start to drive people away from a website which has built its reputation on facts backed up by firm evidence.

    If you care in the slightest about the future of Wings over Scotland you would drop this and, in the unlikely event that anything major comes to light, let those who know what they are doing (and I’m not presuming to be one of them) deal with it.

    If the above seems patronising to you then so be it, you will not be getting any apologies from me for wanting this site to be free of the random drivel which is normally confined to social media.

  24. Marie clark says:

    Oh dear, I find this all very sad. All this bickering and nitpicking. After the community that has been wings over the period of the referendum to have descended to this is really heartbreaking.

    Thank you Doug Daniel & Morag both stalwarts of wings, you have tried hard to explain, but it would seem that some of us don’t like the explanations.

    Guys, we have to accept that we lost, we have to stop cluttering up the site with some of these theories. It really is not helping. I too, was so disappointed with the result. I could hardly believe it, but it is what it is. Fair enough if you wish to sign a petition to have the results looked at, that is your right. But nothing will change we will still have lost. Let it go please.

    Can we all please begin to move forward to where we need to go now. We have learned from this just what we were up against, should make us wiser next time. Concentrate on what we could usefully do at the general election .

    Please folks, come on, all of us together. The no’s will be loving this if they are watching. It’s what they will be counting on, that we’ll all fall out amongst ourselves and gradually disappear. I for one don’t want that to happen.

  25. muttley79 says:


    By the way, apologies for arguing with you too fiercely a wee while ago. That goes for others on here as well. No malice was meant on my part, but I was still too techy at times.

  26. Calgacus says:

    @handclapping,The owner of this site can speak for himself and the only qualification I need to speak on the fairness of the referendum is the fact that I voted

  27. Brian McHugh says:

    YESGUY, a big milestone in the campaign for the SNP will be the Conference. From this conference, we will determine the tactics and way forward.

  28. Gallowglass says:

    Well I’m glad you done that Stuart, hopefully people will take note and move onto other more productive subjects.

  29. Paula Rose says:

    All those who have ideas about fraud etc should go to the site where there is an on-going debate –

  30. The Man from Del Monte says:

    There are more detailed allegations made here at the Butterfly Rebellion:

    The lack of secure arrangements for the transportation of the ballot boxes is particularly worrying, and ballot papers without numbers on the back could easily be switched with ‘No’ ballot papers. I’m not saying this did happen, just that fraud doesn’t have to have taken place in the counting hall. I would be interested to hear Doug’s response to the above article.

  31. Colin Mccartney says:

    Ive posted on this before but i feel it’s worth repeating.
    The way in which we cast our vote is A COMPLETE JOKE.

    We turn up at a village hall or school with trestle tables and booths made by the worst joiner in the world. Its like the hall in Dads Army. We are handed a slip of paper by someone we don’t know, who also takes it, that we are who we say we are, don’t really check the bit of paper, and make a mark on it with a wax pencil. We then put it in a tin box (equally badly made) and hope.

    We then leave, wave plastic cards at scanners to pay for things, move money by mobile phone and travel the planet with our biometric passports.

    And as for postal votes !!!!!!! Ive never in my life met anyone who uses them, that has checked that they got there, or has been verified by the relevant authorities that they used a postal vote to vote.

  32. Nigerian Pirate says:

    Just seen this on a friend’s Facebook status and he was very involved with the Yes campaign – sums up a lot of my own feelings and is quite apt for this thread.

    Post referendum I will make these pleas;
    1. Stop conspiracy theories.
    The vote was not rigged. Individuals caught manipulating ballots and/or misplacing bundles did not determine the outcome.
    2. Stop with this 45 stuff.
    We can’t define people by their political opinion on 18th sept since we obviously need more than we had then. This only alienates others.
    3. Criticise NO campaign/leaders not NO voters.
    Easy to put posts in anger or in discussions which confuse the 2 – keep a clear definition and remember they have had promises made to them.
    4. Keep engaged, keep agitating and keep the faith.
    And to EVERYONE.
    Keep engaged and keep up pressure on promises made. Hold all politicians to account and help make Scotland a better society. Our society is not just about politicians, like the referendum it’s about everyone. Do your bit in whatever way you can – think about the difference you can make – charity work, local politics, not putting up with anti-social behaviour, tackling bigotry/racism/domestic violence and just being a nice person and good neighbour etc…and keep the debate clean and respectful.

    Also Caledonia @ 5:54 – I like your idea about fighting dirty.

  33. Paula Rose says:

    Colin darling – your pot is a complete joke.

  34. Chris Darroch says:

    How dare you people suggest that those who have also put a lot of effort into this have no validity at this juncture to air their concerns on potential fraudulent behaviour.

    Attempting to guilt me by accusing me of being an infighter; Wings damager or cry baby; tin foil conspiracist or whatever is totally unacceptable.

    My reference is to the many people who have actually made the statement that the think that their ballot paper had a blank underside.

    Face those statements. Do not confuse that with the reasoning in the article. That article ONLY refers to the stage after ballots were received at counting stations and NOT before.

    It is ridiculous to shout; well go and prove it then. People are trying to encourage those that witnessed the discrepancy to make formal police reports.

    It would be wholly sensible to understand that only with a weight of such reports could we PROVE our case by attaining sufficient legal leverage to check the ballot. My unique id should be on both the station tally sheet and on my ballot; my fingerprints may also be on my ballot.

    So why don’t those condescending;patronising and unreasonably critical voices be the ones to STFU ?

  35. Calgacus says:

    Ok wingers I surrender, the vote was free and fair, the count was honestly done and I am an idiot. Thank you all and sorry

  36. Graeme Johnson says:

    Re the allegations of ballot papers blank on the reverse….

    At the issue of a ballot paper to the voter, a note is taken of the ballot paper number and this is recorded on the corresponding numbers list (CNL) next to the number of the elector to whom it was issued. (this list is sealed and not available for inspection unless on the order of a court) The number is taken from the reverse of the paper. Without a number the paper would not have been issued.

    Across Scotland there were only 3429 papers rejected and none of these were rejected on the basis of “the reverse being blank”. So even if a blank paper was issued, and I don’t believe that any were, then the paper would still have been counted.

  37. liz says:

    O/T – just when you think you r getting over the betrayal – the BBC is announcing – not that I’m watching it but it’s all over twitter – that oil will last for decades more than they thought.

    They just want to rub our noses right in it,
    They are f***ing shameless.

  38. Chris Darroch says:

    And for the record. I happen to have promoted this very site more than possibly any of you.

  39. macart763 says:


    Some great suggestions there. I’d also like to see our creatives getting involved in breaking new media ground. Regular podcasts and made for net video, documentary, political discussion.

    God we’ve got the brains and the talent, let’s put it to use. We’ve even got the odd friendly journo out there. I mean the thought of ongoing Bateman interviews with our leading thinkers, political movers and shakers in the growing parties, guest spots from pro active celebs etc.

    Ditto on the writing front, these buggers want the likes of Stu, Paul, NNS, Bella and the rest to disappear. They know it was a shaky win and they know the issue isn’t dead and buried. Most importantly they know they’re working to a clock and time will run out quick enough, but we need our lines of communication not just to remain open, but to get seriously upgraded.

    Any and all creatives get your thinking caps on. We’re out to create a new cross platform media. We want to replace the pricks who highjacked our referendum and acted as another wing of the state in our livingrooms and who poisoned what should have been our debate. We need you.

  40. David Smith says:

    This is good enough for me. I can now accept that there was no large scale fraud and move on. The fact is we only lost by 6%. We need to accept that and move on. We have a pretty good idea why we lost and who caused that lost, so now we set about obliterating them from the Scottish political scene. Look at the hearts and minds we have won over three years in spite of all the shit that was lobbed at us. We can rally and build upon this. It is good that we have immediate elections ahead to focus on. We can focus on eliminating these and returning a huge majority to Holyrood in 2016. By then, we will have conventional media to counterbalance the lies of Westminster. A couple of years of broken vows, an even nuttier right wing cabal in London who will doubtless have been putting the boot in and probably another war somewhere.
    Next time, the win will be ours.

  41. Ken500 says:

    An English Parliament for English people (fine) but not spending UK money. No taxation without representation. They can spend their own money they raise and borrow and pay off their own debts.

  42. Paula Rose says:

    Chris Darroch darling – I doubt it.

  43. Juteman says:

    Ch 4 news.
    I can’t believe they actually said that Cameron delayed going to war until after the Scottish referendum in case it damaged the No vote!
    Where was that fuckin honesty before the vote?!

  44. Chris Darroch says:


    What is it dear…………that you doubt ??
    What is it that you find so difficult to understand…..darling !?

  45. Joe says:

    Anyone heard word from police about the definite 10 suspected fraud votes , what happens if they get linked to someone from the BT camp ?

  46. one less day says:

    My post above at 6;45 was taken from the local weekly paper

    I lost my first post and missed this out when I re-typed

  47. Morag says:

    Americans and Russians stirring the pot causing hoaxes.

    Hmmmmm , Is that `Factual Knowledge` Morag.

    No, it’s speculation based on some of the things I’ve seen on the internet. If it turns out it isn’t true, fine, no skin off my nose.

    It’s a far more plausible conspiracy theory than the vote-rigging one though.

  48. Andy-B says:

    To add salt to the already raw wound of defeat, North sea oil reserves boosted.

  49. Morag says:

    Nigerian Pirate, excellent post.

  50. Calgacus says:

    Bob, I criticised nobody’s integrity

  51. Colin Mccartney says:

    Paula Rose – you been on the pot?

  52. HandandShrimp says:

    Does anyone know if the motion was placed in Westminster this Monday as per Brown’s already revised timetable?

  53. handclapping says:

    Stu did – “We lost. There was no conspiracy. Now let’s get to work winning. ”
    As I thought you’re just a keyboard warrior.
    Why didn’t you do something about it beforehand like volunteer to be an agent and oversee the process?
    Why carry on crying over spilt milk like a disappointed child insted of boning up on how the 2015GE is to be run and volunteering to do something to see that your “complaints” don’t happen then as well?

  54. Morag says:

    Joe, I think it will prove impossible to discover who voted fraudulently in these personation cases. Unfortunately. The police are going through the motions, but I don’t think anyone expects them to get anywhere.

    You’d have to have a security camera like at an airport check-in to get anywhere with that sort of offence, and I don’t imagine the voting public would stand for that.

  55. john king says:

    A.N.SURGENT says
    “sad to see I was the only one with a YES badge.”

    No you wern’t, I was there! 😉

  56. Morag says:

    My ballot paper was blank on the reverse. I expected it to be, because it had that spiffy square bar-code-like thing on the front. (There’s a name for these but I can’t remember what it is.)

    The referendum was run by the local councils. They each had slightly different ways of running it. Some used serial numbers on the back, some didn’t.

  57. one less day says:

    Off to war soon the coffins will be coming back

    More of that volatile stuff than they’ll know what to do with after they pay for their war

    And her maj purrrrrrs

    What’s not to like?

  58. David says:

    I reckon a good idea at this point is to agree that those who believe that there is foul play to be found can go out and compile all the evidence they can and make a presentation of it. If they cant within the 6 weeks that the referendum result can be challenged then its time to move on.

    Others who think their is nothing to find can put their energies into other things, and who knows maybe something will indeed come up?

    No point having a protracted argument about it as we are all on the same team.

  59. All the ballots were made of rice paper and as jam was being given away a plenty the feast continued. WE LOST guys.

    I believe Stu is off for a holiday I wouldn’t blame him not to return.

  60. J Galt says:

    Ok Ok I think there is merit in the moving on argument.

    If there was any “sheenanigans” logic dictates that it happened when the boxes were in transit in order to remove anything like enough YES’s to get from, say 51 to 45 per cent. If it was done at all – and I’m not saying it was – it would have been done by professionals with ZERO chance of us proving it. The moving on argument again prevails – the energy (and anger) is needed for positive action.

    However I think we must acknowledge that we are not dealing with “nice” people. As Tommy Sheridan I think has already pointed out, these people – The British State – are Gangsters. We were very naive, and I include myself, in thinking we could waltz off with the UK’s sole strategic asset (the OIL) without so much as a by your leave.

    They do not maintain an enormous State Security Apparatus for nothing. We must in all our diverse pro-independence organisations be on our guard, in fact, the diversity of the movement is it’s major strength, infiltration doesnae come cheap!

  61. Chris Darroch says:

    Step 1
    We accept that many think that there was nothing on the back of their ballots; which is totally illegal

    Step 2
    We take our witness reports to official channels and get paperwork

    The weight of reports petitions higher authority to take investigative steps

    We find out something one way or another

    Is it so hard to accept and respect Step 1 ?

  62. muttley79 says:


    That was actually reported by a MSM newspaper a few weeks ago. I cannot remember which one, but it definitely said that.

  63. A.N.Surgent says:

    john king

    Thank f*k, im getting a bit of an inferiority complex. Would have taken you for a pint through pure relief if I had seen you. 🙂

  64. Roboscot says:

    For those complaining about this thread please bear in mind that vote-rigging, or not, is what Doug’s article is about, and if people don’t wish to participate in a particular thread the solution is not to participate in a particular thread, not to close it down. I think the probity of an electoral process is a valid subject for consideration. No-one is advocating we concentrate on the issue, simply that it is an issue for some people. Having said all that, that is my final contribution to this thread.

  65. iclare says:

    Thank you!
    Sane voice.
    As a Ref Agent for Wings the count was well scrutinised by all sides.

  66. Morag says:

    It would be nice if the people declaring that a ballot paper blank on the back is “totally illegal” would quote their source for this. Particularly after two or three people have posted that many councils were using papers printed only on one side with the unique identifier on the front.

  67. Bittie45 says:

    Vote-rigging aside, I don’t think I’d feel so bad if the NO folk were basing their decisions on balanced facts given by an “unbiased” state broadcaster. Analysis suggests that the MSM’s communication has crucially influenced the outcome of the Referendum. I hope the YES movement communicates back even more effectively by building up a library of undisputed evidence backed up with court rulings. There must be some lawyers who voted YES and who are also gutted at how things turned out and want to contribute their expertise on the legal side.

    Asking academics to help prove the case – there is at least one paper already referenced by “THE BIGGER THE LIE” on youtube – there are surely others. The collecting of video evidence needs to be completed before it gets timed out or “shredded”. Also there must be journalists disillusioned with what’s gone on in their newsroom who’d want to give evidence. Their evidence doubtless is being collated. Sending the evidence to Ofcom to “complement” their (of course) thorough investigation. And used as a reason for demanding a new referendum when the time is right.

  68. AuldA says:

    @Scot Finlayson :

    Now I wasn’t there, no do I live in Scotland. But I watched the videos and saw nothing conclusive.

    I don’t know for American observers. But for Russian, may I recall to this honorable assembly that as long as the UK remains in the EU, and as long as the EU carry on its sanctions towards Russia, there might be some kingpins over there who would seize every opportunity to mess up things on this side of the barrier. For example, by sending observers to an election and then having them fake videos and claim fraud…

  69. Calgacus says:

    @handclapping, I was in an open cast coal mine in East Ayrshire earning a living. Does that make me a keyboard warrior? Does that mean I am not entitled to voice my opinion? Your abuse makes me wonder if I am on the right side.

  70. Nigerian Pirate says:

    macart763 @ 7:00

    I posted this link way earlier in the thread but it was a bit O/T – maybe still is

    I haven’t heard anything about it or who is involved – its all new to me. Not sure if anyone else can shed some light on it. It’s not up and running as yet and if I try and click on any of the links it just returns to the facebook page where I found it.

  71. john king says:

    Ian Brotherhood says

    This has to be one of the most bad-tempered threads ever to appear on WOS.

    A bit ironic that some of our most enjoyable get-the-githers were in ‘The Counting House’, eh?”

    Well at least here you dont get fire alarms and sombody necking you pint 🙂

  72. yesindyref2 says:

    STV a while ago, has Sturgeon refusing to rule out another Referendum and apparently saying “it will be sooner than anyone thinks”. Well, I think 2 years tops, so it must be sooner than that!

    It means campaigning now, getting into all those NOes, not just one demographic, including (sore point) postal votes and postal voters – and analysing their dmographic, e.g. second holiday home owners (no chance) or care homes (every chance), or businesspeople going away a lot, or even people off on holiday partying in Ibiza.

    To be honest, taking out our anger on each other at the moment, the next stage on from grief and despair, seems to me to be a GOOD IDEA, far better than doing it on the NOes who need to be wooed over the next few weeks and months.

    So, to keep the pot boiling and the ire running here goes:

    “I’m an arsehole, you’re an eejit”.

  73. Chris Darroch says:

    Read the first post here and tell me that you are still sure.

  74. G H Graham says:

    There was no fraud. Let the facts explain why.

    There were 789,024 postal votes. The rate of spoiled papers is 0.09% so 710 posted votes were rejected. Which means that the net number of postal votes was 788,314.

    If we split the postal vote exactly along the ratio of the final results (44.65% of votes cast were YES & 55.25% of votes cast were NO), then we can say that of all the votes that were posted by mail,

    352,018 people voted YES


    435,550 people voted NO

    Now, the difference between all the YES votes & the NO votes that were received at the polling stations as well as the postal votes was 383,937 and half of that number is 191,969.

    Thus, to achieve the result of the referendum by fraudulently changing YES postal votes, more than half of them (191,969/352,018*100 = 55%) would need to be switched.

    The idea that over half of all the YES postal votes were switched for NO is simply ludicrous.

    So let’s just put the conspiracies away until someone uncovers the Holy Grail in an Argyll bog.

  75. chris kelly says:

    I’m seeing a lot of “I did x, y and z. What did you do?” comments from the WOS staff. Honestly? I did nothing, except vote yes, and try to convince friends and family to vote yes. I didn’t know what else to do. I’ve never voted before this year. I’ve never took an interest in politics before this year. I only found this website about three weeks ago.

    I would have loved to be more involved, and I had no idea how to get involved. I only found out afterwards about rallies that were organised in my area. That my friends went to.

    I’m ready to be more involved. I’ve joined facebook groups, I’ve been invited to several rallies and I’ll go to some of them. I’m joining the Green Party next week.

    It’s good that you guys got more involved, and I for one don’t consider any of you to be Westminster Double Agents, but please stop hating people who had no idea how to do more.

    Our whole country needs a good solid education in politics, I think. And economics.

    Anyway, I looked into vote rigging on my blog, before I read this, and dismissed most of the claims, and all of the video evidence. After reading this post, I dismissed more.

    And then I read this blog:

    This is a blog post that has gathered up all the supposed evidence to make a case for vote rigging. A lot of what they say you’ve dismissed. Others, like Marc Pat, I’ve dismissed.

    But that blog has a lot of others, a lot of people coming forward claiming they saw things, claiming they were volunteers or staff. Mhairi Kennedy, Joyce Armour, Jim Daly, Sharon McDonald, Paul Birrell – these are all people who claim to have been working on the vote in some capacity and saw suspicious or downright illegal behaviour.

    And there is screen captures from social media of people boasting that they rigged the postal votes and voted from London, or from America. (Hopefully, they get charged).

    I don’t know if it was rigged, though I believe it probably wasn’t, or if it was, No would still have won but by a much smaller margin. But I can’t quite dismiss those claims by people who supposedly worked on the vote and saw illegal or suspicious things happen.

  76. Chris Darroch says:


    I am not talking about postal votes at all in my posts.

  77. Golfnut says:

    @ handclapping.
    Again I can only agree. But with1.6 million yessers we can afford to let a few rummage. It has only been a few days since the vote, the next few weeks will be important and from what I have observed lots of good minds concentrating on how best to proceed. Plenty of discussion to come. We will not all agree but I think we are all united in a common cause unlike WM. They think its all over, its not.

  78. Calgacus says:

    @handclapping, your advice about volunteering at the GE might have been welcomed without the personal remark.I have voted SNP for forty years and campaigned many times so do one.

  79. yesindyref2 says:

    I nearly forgot, silly me. I – ME – I did all the work trying to get a YES vote, you lot did nothing, you lazy people.

    Please feel free to gang up on me and tell me what I am 🙂

  80. Paul Murphy says:

    Anyone else notice that Murrayfield has just been renamed “BT Murrayfield”

    After the Hastings boys efforts I guess it’s quite fitting.

  81. AuldA says:

    The lesson to be learned here, IMHO, is that postal ballot is NOT a good idea, because even if there is no fraud, there will always be some stubborn nitpicking. Ergo, some other form of remote votation procedure must replace it and squash all doubts. I’m sure somebody here can come up with a better proposal.

  82. Morag says:

    Chris, I see an American author sounding off about something she knows nothing about.

  83. Grouse Beater says:

    Ignoring the principles of honesty and fairness, the ‘cheating’ issued from the violent methods employed by the British state to cow Scotland into submission.

  84. Sileas Campbell says:

    Just one question, though: my husband’s ballot paper had a barcode on the back, but mine definitely didn’t. Should they all have had barcodes on the back?

    Also, on a different topic, perhaps, why do you think the turnout was so low in the two Yes voting cities?

  85. Ken500 says:

    Carry on it’s sanctions against Russia.

    26million Russians died in WW11 (1 in 4) for democracy UK style, ie secretly ripe off and abuse your smaller neighbour

    1/2million British died.

  86. Bunter says:

    Please explain what Ruth Davidson was up to counting postal votes weeks before the offical counting?

  87. call me dave says:

    Have a look at the short interview with John Drum.
    He sums up the current situation today.

  88. ronnie anderson says:

    @Chris Darroch I,ll show you my accomplishments if you show me yours.There aare many Wingers can make the claim to fame, do we do it NOT at all, we,re shy modest Cybernats.But you keep on swinging yer D*** wie any luck the wind will catch it & i,ll slap you in the face.

  89. crisiscult says:

    in the spirit also of promoting unity, can people make sure that they remember we all want the same thing here, which is full on independence. How we get there, and what opinions we have on related topics, what symbols we have (45 or otherwise), what political parties we join: they really don’t matter.

    My advice is that everyone just remember that the posts over the last few days are people getting things off their chests. Please, no one spit the dummy. If someone winds you up, just remember that they’re probably in pain and still upset.

    We need to start channelling our energy soon though.

    There will be an assumption that we can’t maintain our energies and stay together for much longer. Let’s prove them wrong.

  90. Bob Sinclair says:

    And yet you didn’t consider the most important vote in 307 years worthy of your experience over 40 years.

  91. Chris Darroch says:


    Apart from a mere GTF.

    My response was designed to counter the suggestion by a few that folk (like myself) who are giving some respect to those who state that they did not see any unique identifying mark on their ballot; are somehow anti Wings.


  92. SquareHaggis says:

    I was also at the Aberdeen count and placed at a table counting the postal ballots for Moray.

    Unfortunately I was the only one watching and there were four counters, two of whom were left-handed so I couldn’t see half the ballots nor the X’s thereon.

    Thankfully the team lead was right-handed (most of the time) and let me see quite clearly both boxes on her sheets.

    I was struck by a number of ballots (around 25) in close succession all marked NO in blue biro and some appeared very similar in style, not decisive X’s or a variation of but more akin to that of a child or a very old person with a very shaky hand.

    I remember thinking they may have been filled out on behalf of the residents of an old folks home.

    My tally was 150 Yes, 600 No.

    I then monitored another table and saw similar patterns, albiet in smaller samples throughout that postal vote count.

    There certainly appeared to be cases of voters voting on other voters’ behalf.

    Maybe something to be looked into for future elections.

  93. Bob Sinclair says:

    Chris Darroch,
    Id recommend you retract that.

  94. Blair paterson says:

    I see Cameron is to recall parliament about bombing in Iraqu he never thought about recalling it about British people starving and having to use food banks o know let’s worry about every body else but our own people he says Isis is a the art to us and Americas freedom well I could not care less about Americas freedom .,, i never thought I would see the day when an Afro American president would tell a country not once but twice that they were better of remaining slaves of another country make no mistake that is exactly what he was saying the American president made it clear he is not interested in my freedom so I am not interested in theirs

  95. Chris Darroch says:



    Secondly the suggestion by @bobsinclair that the blank back concerns were “utter garbage ” is too simplistic.

    His reasoning is the great difficulty he perceives in tallying the number of votes placed in the box at polling station with the number received at count; given an assumption that they could have been switched.

    Surely for example, the fact is that a list of those who had voted had been ticked off in every single polling station. Given access to such a list; anyone wanting to place the correct switched number of ballots into a fraudulent box for the count; could simply look at that list of ticked off names and count them up.

  96. handclapping says:

    @Chris Darroch
    Please list the Councils that used mechanical counting and needed a barcode on the back.
    Please list the Councils that did not use mechanical counting but had a barcode on the back
    Please list the Councils that did not use mechanical counting and saved money by putting their Unique Identifier on the front
    Then sort those complaining that their ballot paper was blank on the back between these 3 lists and come back to us

  97. Chris Darroch says:


    Who the hell are you?

    Who the hell is “us”………………how excruciatingly pompous you sound.

    Get some respect sucker !

  98. CRAIGthePICT says:


    If you haven’t yet, get it cancelled. (don’t illegally watch live telly of course)

  99. Chris Darroch says:

    Is this forum the Guardian forum by any chance ?

  100. handclapping says:

    @Chris Darroch
    I’m a pompous git who doesn’t suffer fools

  101. Chris Darroch says:


    I think that you are not for Yes at all.

    You are here; merely to cause trouble I suspect.

  102. Chris Baxter says:

    Stop, jesus, just stop!

    This is embarrassing.

    The SNP has 60,000 + members, Greens have more than doubled and the response to such a disappointing defeat has been fantastic; better than anyone could have hoped for.

    Except for this vote rigging stuff. Just agree to disagree instead of getting even more argumentative.

  103. Chris Darroch says:

    Too much resistance to reason here today. I am not going to besmirch this venerable site any further by battling against that.

    Cheers !

  104. handclapping says:

    @chris Darroch
    You are the one trolling
    Consider the words of the Rev Stu “We lost. There was no conspiracy. Now let’s get to work winning.”

    How are your lists going? There are 32 Councils, it should be quite easy.

  105. Calgacus says:

    @bob sinclair, I did, I voted YES.

  106. Morag says:

    I’m tired. I’ve been tramping the streets and driving up farm tracks with the anodyne, boring Yes Scotland literature since it was snowing. And latterly with the Wee Blue Book and the Wings leaflets. I’ve forced myself out to do it when I was cringing inside from the prospect of being yelled at by another angry No voter who didn’t want the inside of his letterbox polluted with Yes propaganda.

    I’ve been to meetings and I’ve organised public meetings and I’ve manned street stalls. I even kitted my car out in Yes decals and erected a flagpole for my Yes saltire.

    I’ve also been to concerts and film evenings and plays and Yes social events, so it hasn’t been all bad. But I was so stressed by it all I got shingles a month before the actual vote. I’m also under investigation for another medical complaint I suspect is stress-related.

    I took my 2-week summer holiday from 8th to 19th September so that I would be free to work for the Yes campaign. I opened my house to three Plaid Cymru activists who has kindly volunteered to come up and help – and I haven’t done all the laundry yet I’m afraid.

    On the day itself I nannied three very rural polling stations, and drove to “get out the vote” 25 miles away. I then drove to the count, an hour and a half away, and worked all night watching a remarkably honest and transparent system do its job. I commiserated with devastated young activists at four in the morning, trying to raise their spirits.

    I went back to work on Monday, and on Tuesday I was at the first post-referendum meeting of our local SNP branch. Having sat up till stupid o’clock on Monday night trying to counter these mad conspiracy theories on an earlier thread.

    So yes, maybe I am a bit short-tempered. Suffering fools has never been my specialist subject. But if the people who were appointed by Wings and other groups to monitor the system are all saying they have no concerns about large-scale systematic vote-rigging, then maybe the people who haven’t been running themselves ragged trying to support the cause could just STFU, no?

  107. Ealasaid says:

    Many thanks to Doug, Morag and many others that were following the ballots or at the counts for telling us how the system works. I never knew all that before. It was very enlightening.

    I do not believe that 400,000+ votes were rigged. I believe that it was the BBC wot done it and that a UKIP MEP in Scotland was the dry run. It explains all the delight from the BBC staff at the win.

    However it is now time to move on. If we are to take Labour on directly in their own constituencies perhaps we can learn about the opposition around the ballot from some of the comments.

    First up they were very well organised. Helping old folk to register and cast their votes. How did they know where all the old folk live (age/address and telephone number)? Can we also get their source of information and use it in a similar way.

    Secondly, they went round to the doors of the old folk, posing as officials. Warning that they would be back to collect the pension book if there was a Yes vote. We really need to get round the old folk to counter any such blatant lies and reassure.

    Thirdly they are very tribal. Ignored other people at the polling station and went straight to their own representatives. Is there any way to break this down or infiltrate to let another point of view in?

    Fourth, where do they get their support from? Are the Unions still involved to any extent? Should we approach Unions?

    Fifth, as some are concerned about ballot boxes not being followed and there not being enough people to accompany them all, then more of us should volunteer and we would see the system for ourselves. Or we could get tracking devices in them all.

    Just a few things to work on. We need to know the enemy in order to take them on effectively, and we need to start moving on now!

  108. Calgacus says:

    @Chris Darroch, careful Chris, I think there might be a three line whip here.

  109. Bugger (the Panda) says:

    Chris Darroch

    Are you for real. I have never seen you posting here before and I know Handclapping personally.

    Back off.

  110. Liquid Lenny says:

    They did not use postal vote sampling to change tack, they did that as a result of private polls that showed YES ahead by four points. That figure comes from Laura Kunsberg of whatever her name is.

    Re campaign going forward, its simples.

    2016 Scottish Elections SNP only has one thing on manifesto = Abolition of Treaty of Union.

    If they get 50% +1 on first past post basis, When the Parliament convenes, we have a vote on abolition. With the help of the List MSP’s , Greens etc no problem.

    If we don’t get 50% +1 although we are likely to be the largest party we say as we have not been elected on our manifesto commitment, we decline to govern. We let Labour run a minority administration. We give them enough rope to hang themselves, with the austerity cuts coming through and loss of Barnet consequentials they will have to cut free bus passes for elderly , prescriptions, impose higher education fees etc. (Which they will do anyway without much prompting)

    Boris/Farage duo in London meanwhile will be setting up a Euro exit referendum. When the timing is right we call a no confidence motion on Labour, defeat them meaning a new Scottish Election and if we don’t win that one we never will….

  111. handclapping says:

    Well done, voting brother, so did I.

    Its just that there is no point in crying over spilt milk, we’ll not get a 400,000 majority overturned. We need to get on to what to do now. How best to get our 1.6 million voting to get Independentist candidates elected to Westminster in the place of the 53 Unionist stooges

  112. Tamson says:


    I think the possibility that Labour and/or other parties use old folks’ homes as vote farms for the postal ballot must be considered.

  113. Bob Sinclair says:

    I’m done commenting on this thread due to the ranting of certain people who seem to see the world through paranoia tinted glasses. That and the attacks on people who I have a lot of respect for due to their hard work honesty and good humour has got me to the point where I might just say something I regret.

    See you all on the next thread when, hopefully, things will have calmed down

  114. Ken599 says:

    Cameron and Obama created ISIS they armed, supplied and supported them for the past two years against Assad. Now they are bombing them to bits. They are a couple of murdering idiots and other things. They are killing people at home and abroad.

  115. muttley79 says:


    I do not recognise Chris Darroch before either. Kid Spotlight was another name I had not read on here since the result came through. I am afraid it looks like some individuals are trying to disrupt this site.

  116. handclapping says:

    Wil you ever be able to live down the shame of that admission? 😉

  117. alistair says:

    Complete change of track here.
    Working down in sunny London today and have been looking at local news TV and papers. The “good” news is that the media here have completely moved on. Not a mention of the referendum anywhere – not even in Milliband’s speech. They are already obsessing about next GE.
    That, along with Syria, inevitably means they will take eye of ball which just means that the likelihood of them delivering on their timetable gets more remote with each passing day. We should all be planning on the next phase, how we organise now for the GE campaign, getting literature planned etc. Many of the YES groups have now got back together. We can move the momentum on ourselves and work down at the grassroots level on the target areas we know we need to work on. I loved the idea of the wee red book for the GE of all the lies from BT, past profiles and quotes from BLAB members etc. GIven the impact of the wee blue book we should get the wee red book out much earlier in the campaign process. Lets all get our thinking hats on. There are now 60,000 footsoldiers in the SNP who are presumably up for getting out there and campaigning. Exciting times ahead.

  118. Paula Rose says:

    Bob Sinclair honey, don’t worry we’ve delivered a severe whipping to Chris Darroch and I think everyone has agreed to calm down – am I right dearests?

  119. yesindyref2 says:

    Hey peeps, google is your friend, Just search for – wings over scotland Chris Darroch – or handclapping and you’ll see them both have posted here on the side of YES.

  120. Gallowglass says:

    Well I see that was a bit hopeful then….

  121. Paula Rose says:

    That may be so yesindyref2 but being nasty to Ronnie Anderson is not allowed – its the only rule in Wings 😉

  122. muttley79 says:


    The British establishment does not care about Scotland, we are a source of wealth to them through the oil. We are a possession, to make those with power, and some who does not have any, feel important. That is the long and short of it.

  123. heraldnomore says:

    So, the oil will last for decades more – and that’s just the North Sea stuff, still waiting on west of Shetland and West Coast; the NHS is under threat according to Labour; it’s now a good time to go bombing.

    Any No voters still trust the ‘Imperial Masters’?

    Or are we still giving it big licks on conspiracy theories?

  124. liz g says:

    Whit dae ye mean yir washns no done
    Whit kind o wummin ir ye
    HIV ye no hid yer cereal

  125. Morag says:

    I think the justification for having another run at an independence mandate has to be extremely clear. And it has nothing to do with the integrity of the vote.

    The Yes campaign made slow but steady progress throughout 2014, despite an unremitting barrage of negativity and scaremongering from the media, amplifying the Better Together line. And despite Westminster throwing everything it had into the mix, with government reports telling us we’d be benkrupt and Cameron calling in favours all over the globe to get foreign interests to say negative things about us.

    About 30th August something happened. Scotland seemed to catch fire. Everyone was talking about it. The imagination of the voters was engaged, to the point where even then some early postal No voters were expressing some regret. I believed we were on a roll, a bandwagon that would carry us over the finishing line.

    Then there was an opinion poll showing Yes in the lead, and then all hell broke loose. If the previous two years of media coverage had felt like sustained domestic abuse, these last two weeks were like being on the wrong end of a seal-clubbing exercise.

    The rise in the Yes vote stalled, but it didn’t reverse. I remarked that if Scotland still voted Yes after the beating-up that was being administered, it would be an act of extraordinary courage. I still thought we’d do it though.

    So did Westminster, apparently, postal vote lead or not. That’s when Brown was wheeled on with his empty promises, and the media encouraged to represent his offer as the fabled “Devo-max”. At the same time there was a very targeted scare campaign towards the elderly, focussing on telling them their pensions would disappear if there was a Yes vote. That did it. The Yes vote was depressed by 6 or 7 percentage points instead of rising as expected.

    Devo-max was a lie. Oil running out was a lie. Pensions disappearing was a lie. EU citizens being deported was a lie. Prices going up was a lie.

    No won on lies and false promises. That is becoming not just clear but documentable. So far, I imagine the regretful No voters will be a fairly small minority of the 200,000 we’d need to change their mind, but that will grow.

    These are the grounds Nicola needs to concentrate on and document, to justify any relatively quick re-visiting of the independence issue. I imagine she understands this a lot better than I do.

  126. muttley79 says:

    Roll on a few months I say…

  127. Calgacus says:

    Ok folks, this foolish idiot has had quite enough, sorry for having the temerity to question the fairness of the postal vote. I see that you are all jumping on another commenter, flamers.

    I have been with this Wings from near the beginning but it doesn’t feel the same anymore.

    Goodbye and goodluck

  128. David says:

    Just a wee change of subject

    I hope people on social media are posting the real facts as they appear to their friends and others.

    A winning method is –

    (Relevant fact said in a few words)
    Source posted with it.

    Such as –

    Real difficulties foreseen in meeting party leaders pledges!

    Nice and concise and to the point with the source there to be investigated.

    That beats arguing about who screwed who over (or maybe not?)at the ballot count.

    Not that im above an argument myself, but there are independence supporters out their who until now have thought they were with BT.

  129. Robert Kerr says:

    I am sorry I wasted part of my life reading all the comments posted on this thread.

    I shall be off line for over a week, Friday I shall be drinking in Lichfield with former work-mates, Sunday driving my MG in South Wales, The rest of the week walking in the Welsh countryside.

    PLEASE when I return lets have WoS back to what it was. An informative, enjoyable site with a forum that was rancour free, educational and fun.

    Enough is enough.

  130. Morag says:

    Ah Liz. The washing will get done. I washed plenty while the Plaid guys were here. Who knew Welsh canvassers liked a clean shirt every morning! They were worth it though, bless their hearts.

    I slipped and fell while carrying a box of Wee Blue Books that was a bit too heavy for me, and I’m still suffering from a tender tailbone. That’s my excuse and I’m sticking to it.

  131. The Rough Bounds says:


    ”Anodyne, boring Yes Scotland literature…”

    I agree. eg. Far too much money was spent on huge posters that just weren’t imaginative enough. The tit for tat leaflets from both sides were just silly. ie they say it will cost us such and such, and we say, no, it will mean we will be such and such better off. Boring.

    I persuaded the Yes team to write an article for the USA Celtic Guide (not the football team) on line magazine. The article was bland and dull. I wished I had written the article for the magazine myself. It was obvious that the writer hadn’t understood exactly what the online magazine was about. It was about CULTURE. Not boring politics.

    We needed a lot more passion and imagination in the campaign and it just wasn’t forthcoming. There’s been more passion and out of the box thinking this last five days than there was for much of the three years.

    As regards the ‘vote rigging’ forget it folks. It didn’t happen. Or if it did it was to such a small degree that it made no difference. Time to move on guys and get those imaginative brain cells going. We have a country to win.

  132. one less day says:

    Something that does not ring true is the story of someone coming back to collect the OAPs pension book

    Does anyone have a pension book nowadays I thought they were all done away with

  133. Ken500 says:

    Cameron and Obama’s allies on their latest venture wasting £Billions of public money are Charlies sword dancing pals. The Saudis. The most despot absolute monarchy in the world, who funded the 9/11 participants. That is what Unionist voters in Scotland signed up to support.

  134. jeremy the lawyer says:

    I’m all for a good conspiracy rant but seeing that it’s completely preposterous I say make your conspiracies equally so.

    For example, BT only employed people suffering from double vision or a form of dyscalculia to do the counting?

    Or perhaps people thought marking an x meant they thought that was the wrong option so crossed out no.

    Either make the conspiracy properly mental or accept the result and just try harder when we get another shot in a couple of years.

    Conspiracies are only likely to scare away the soft yesses and those are the ones we need to solidify so they can get more next time.

    Plus they make you look like a complete moron to rational people.

  135. Okay a wee reminder to you from above. It fair heartened me.

  136. liz g says:

    Ok Morag

    Let ye aff THIS time but in future the ONLY excuse is a hangover from our INDY PARTY

    AGREED !!!!!

  137. Robert Peffers says:

    Colin Mccartney says:24 September, 2014 at 6:56 pm:

    “And as for postal votes !!!!!!! Ive never in my life met anyone who uses them, that has checked that they got there, or has been verified by the relevant authorities that they used a postal vote to vote.”

    Well you have now. Mind you they only verify your postal vote got there but can’t tell you if it has been altered in any way. It is simply a case of going to a website and keying in the strange password they give you – typing in your DOB and the confirmation comes up if it has arrived.

  138. caledonia says:

    can anyone please answer this and does the buying of these support wings

    O/T question when i click on the wings store all the prices are in $ is there a way to change this.

    Or maybe we are better together with the Americans as well (joke)

    p.s just joined the SNP as well

  139. muttley79 says:


    I was never that confident about a Yes vote I am afraid to say. We made a lot of progress in the last 3 years, utterly unthinkable even 10 years ago. However, I strongly feel we came up against a power that was mighty, I have no doubts about that. It was able to exert tremendous force on us, particular in the last few weeks. This campaign has been a profound learning experience. We were up against the force of the British state, and it still has massive power.

    We need to think about how we develop our own media, how we reach difficult groups and communicate with them effectively, we need to take on and defeat SLAB overwhelmingly in Scotland, both at local level, and at Westminster/Holyrood. We also need to find ways to keep the interest of the electorate going, and participating more in the political process. We have loads of things to do, and it will not happen overnight. However, we have to be ready for next time. Doug Daniel was right, we had an agreed process before we had a broad based movement.

    The most positive thing is we gave them a hell of a fight and fright. We need to hold them to account for their promises, and push for substantial powers for Holyrood.

  140. Clootie says:

    A large number of agitators I don’t recognise. It looks like a focused attempt to undermine Wings.
    We ignored Trolls in the past ( mostly) I wonder why everyone is biting now?

  141. Tina says:

    Maybe my OCD, but with it all explained away I don’t personally understand why the no table had mixed piles. If there was a no table there would be a yes table nearby. How difficult to place them on appropriate table as you go? It’s just more work to pile then sort! Either that, or don’t mark the tables until they’re to be separated to avoid the confusion and allegations that were made.. I know it’s all explained but I just find it a bit disorganised. There are other words I would use but that’s the most gracious. Like I say, my OCD, I’d be compelled to sort them out sooner or question labelling the table. That’s just me though.

  142. Democracy Reborn says:

    @Morag 8.42pm

    Without wishing to sound sycophantic, I agree with every word you say.

    Previous posters have done the electoral arithmetic : we were 200,000+1 votes short of victory. There are rich pickings still to be made, particularly still amongst disillusioned Labour voters. The battle was lost but the war is certainly not over.

    PS. Despite the result, I’m retaining my posting name.

  143. Morag says:

    I remember once being sent a postal vote pack, and the stuff had obviously been stored somewhere damp. The wee envelope you’re supposed to put the voting paper into was already firmly stuck down.

    I slit it open and put my ballot into it and taped it shut. I put a note inside the outer envelope explaining that the small envelope was already gummed shut when I received it. This was long before the internet was even a gleam in Tim Berners-Lee’s eye.

    I have no idea whether the vote was counted or not. I suspect the entire batch of envelopes might have been the same way, as the cause was obviously storage in a cold damp place like a garage. I still like to speculate what the returning officer and the party agents did when they were verifying that particular batch of postals.

    Stuff happens. 400,000-vote fiddles don’t happen without leaving a trail a blind sloth could follow though.

  144. muttley79 says:

    @Democracy Reborn

    So you should, we got a turnout that was one of the highest in the UK’s history.

  145. john king says:

    Paula Rose says
    “Bob Sinclair honey, don’t worry we’ve delivered a severe whipping to Chris Darroch”

    Dammit, I always miss the best bits,
    thats your fault Ronnie. 😉

  146. muttley79 says:


    In a few weeks emotions will be under more control. There will still be trolls no doubt.

  147. Daddyo says:

    Morag says:
    24 September, 2014 at 8:14 pmI’m tired. I’ve been tramping the streets and driving up farm tracks with the anodyne, boring Yes Scotland literature since it was snowing. And latterly with the Wee Blue Book and the Wings leaflets.

    Morag thank you – you are truly one of Jock Thampsons bairns.
    Yes sticker still on the car and yes badge still on. Don’t let the bastirts grind you down

  148. Paul Murphy says:

    @robert kerr

    I second that motion. About time to take break. Hope this site gets back to business soon.

  149. Grouse Beater says:

    Muttley: I was never that confident about a Yes vote I am afraid to say.


    Too many scornful kith and kin antagonistic to anything wholly ‘Scottish,’ too many incomers, settlers, and those in the pay of the British state.

    Next time has to be the occasion we ‘take’ our independence, not open it out to all-comers.

  150. crisiscult says:

    hope I’m not accused of agitating here but what about Cameron’s visit to Shetland? Wow, how naive I now realise I’ve been; was quietly confident we’d win the referendum but now realise, in retrospect, how tough that was gonna be.

  151. bunter says:

    Does anyone know what that website was all about. I noticed it when it was launched over a year ago, as a research tool for individuals and organisations to use to ascertain indyref facts and figures.

    I had been waiting for its full launch and advertising in the run up to the vote but came to nought. Looked like it could have been quite a useful too.

  152. yesindyref2 says:

    Morag I agree that’s what happened. At the same time though there was a huge enthusiasm and happiness amongst the YES supporters and that definitely helped o sway more to YES. But it also exaggerated the perceived support for YES.

    The word “psy-ops” was mentioned earlier and I’ve certainly been, shall we say, aware of it in my postings. All genuine stuff but perhaps angled a little at times. I think a lot of YES campaigners consciously or unconscsiously used psy-ops to generate the feel we were all confident on winning, perhaps to say to people “be on the winning side, vote YES”.

    Well it turned out we were wrong. But the huge, immense, enormous feat is having turned a 25% nutcase support for Independence into a mainstream 45% which could have ended up 55%, 60% or more but for a very successful NO campaign.

    YES Scotland wasn’t just anodyne their website was garbage. BT had articles straight in your face “no pound”, “pensions bust”, “oil declining”. YES had – a video of birth “my name is Kirsty”. Pathetic.

    Next time which won’t be long now once Devo-Max busts, we need a better formal YES campaign, a charismatic leader with enthusisam who can make mistakes nobody cares, it just needs enthusaism. And a far better web designer!

    We’ll be here, even more enthusiastic than before, including handclapping and Chris Darroch and calgacus!

    By the way, it might be that the anodyne YES campaign was exactly what was needed to get from 25% to 45%, but it needed something else to get from 45% to 60%. Who knows! The SNP strategists are presumably working on that RIGHT NOW. The danger was of interrupting the momentum, rather than pushing it on, which is probably why the official campaign hung back. Website was always garbage though, no easy information or rebuttals.

  153. Robert Peffers says:

    Tweet from

    “Peter Murrell6 days on, but still they come! 35,104 new @theSNP members, overall total now 60,746. Join us and make a difference: “

    Keep on like this and we will be the biggest party in The UK.

  154. Wee Alex says:

    Have a look at this link

    Sorry if it’s been posted before but you couldn’t make it up.

  155. Morag says:

    Muttley, I hear what you’re saying. I wasn’t confident either. My heart was telling me that Scotland wanted independence. My head was telling me that the media were giving us a hell of a beating-up and it was bound to be having some effect.

    I think that’s why I’ve been showing symptoms of stress. Holding that much hope, while seeing the hope take a battering, is inherently stressful.

    One of the reasons I felt relatively calm in the aftermath was that I knew I’d done my reasonable best. I gave up a great deal of free time, gladly. As well as regular contributions to both Yes Scotland and the SNP, I chipped in for a lot of the fundraisers. I’ll cherish my gold Wings badge forever.

    I think what we’re seeing now in all the joining that’s going on is freeloaders’ remorse. People who left it to others and now realise they should have been active. What could the SNP have done with 60,000 members a year ago?

    That doesn’t mean that many No voters have turned already. That will take time. It does mean that Yes isn’t going away.

  156. HandandShrimp says:

    There is a lot going on in civic Scotland. The flowering of political consciousness is continuing and those that supported Yes are blossoming.

    We did not win this particular battle but we are far from defeated. The No side is I think in partial shock at what is happening to party membership, in opinion polls and on the street. They may have lied and cheated their way to a win through the media and their friends in business and international politics but they are paying a price. We need to focus on the battles ahead and make sure they pay in full – not argue over theoretical conspiracies.

    Let’s get this site back to what it does best, hold the media and those who stood against Scottish independence to account. There is no shortage of candidates.

  157. Nigerian Pirate says:


    Up in the top right hand corner of the Wings Megastore page is a tab marked Currency. Click on it for a drop down list and choose GBP (or whatever)

    Its a USA helpline number so guessing the items are shipped from there.

    Apologies if this is a repeat post but my internet connection is slooooooowwww. Someone probably beat me to it.

  158. Ealasaid says:

    @one less day

    It may not have been pension book, as I repeated from someone further up the comments, but there were reports, before the vote, of UKOK mini buses with large guys in suits from south of the border not canvassing but looking for specific addresses. Others here reported finding terrified pensioners in tears having been visited and/or phoned and told that they would get no more pension if there is a Yes vote. This undoubtedly did happen as reported from more than one here.

  159. A.N.Surgent says:

    If we had anything like a neutral media, a campaign from BT based on facts(not lies and fear), and just Scottish based participants
    we would have won hands down. Although that was never going to happen, establishment had too much too lose.

  160. ScottieDog says:

    I see the Buckingham Palace has been rumbled trying to apply for benefits. What next eh!

  161. liz g says:

    muttley 79


    If there are troll’s on here we have taught them to at least stay ON TOPIC

    IMHO that’s ALMOST as much fun as 45% of Scotland making WM bend

    But not nearly as much satisfaction as knowing that when the 55% join us
    They will have to BEND OVER

  162. Today was the first post-referendum meeting of one of the pensioners’ groups I am in. Therein, myself and one other member are very-much in the minority, the only two admitted Yes voters.

    Today, however, one or two of the others admitted they had voted No because they feared their pensions would not be paid – so, their votes were bought with lies.

    One or two others admitted, they liked the idea of Devo-Max being delivered – so, here again, their votes were bought by lies, and, already, one or two are admitting, they cannot see Devo-Max being delivered soon.

    So, already, less than a week on from the vote – some of the worms are turning.

    Next time – but, only if we in the 45 keep working.

  163. Morag says:

    Anodyne lacklustre official Yes campaign. (Culminating in my receiving the Yes fleece I ordered two weeks before the vote on 19th September. Or not actually, all I have yet is a note from the postie saying there wasn’t enough postage on it, come and get it and bring your wallet. And I believe they sent me the wrong size so I’m in no hurry.)

    Now there’s a conspiracy theory I’m not yet ready to kick out of bed for eating crackers.

  164. Pentland Firth says:

    Hand and Shrimp at 9.14

    I totally agree with every word you’ve written. I’ve grown very tired of the lunatic ravings of conspiracy theorists and the angry bile of the deluded. Let’s get back to the task in hand.

  165. Colin Mccartney says:

    @Robert Peffers

    thanks Robert, you learn something every day – bonus points for being the first lol

  166. handclapping says:

    He’s back. Will somebody let him know he doesn’t need to read the comments on this thread.

  167. lochside says:

    Thanks Doug for putting this tiresome squirrel to rest. I skipped through all the other guff questioning it.

    We have a job on our hands and need to get on with it. My Yes group is reconvened and our aim is to destroy Local Labour at the GE.

    Those liars and deceivers will fall on their sword as we all know with their false promises disappearing in the explosions of another illegal war ringing in their dissembling ears..but we must be there to administer the coup de gras at the polling station.

  168. Daddyo says:

    What we have discovered in the loosing is our stength. The young ones did us very proud. This is there first taste of British Empire power. This is probably their first notion of how dirty politics really is. So the allure of conspirancy theory is bright in their young minds.
    The Empire will not go down without a fight and the young ens know that now. Give them the vote and the Empire will reap the whirlwind.

    We know, as seasoned warriors that, even if, there was jiggery pokery in the count it makes no odds.
    Play the long game. The Westminster elite will be at each other like wolves. Stand back and let them make war,let them disadvantage the poor and the vunerable.
    Let them reap what the sow.
    We are not going away. We are a nation in our hearts and souls.

  169. Morag says:

    Ealasaid, I also have an example of pensioner bullying, at least second-hand. During the count, while I was having a snack break, I was talking to one of the SNP councillors. He said something had happened at a polling station earlier in the day that really upset him. He said that an elderly couple had told him they’d just voted No – “of course we had to”. He asked why they believed they had to. They said that Better Together had been round and had explained to them that their pensions would be stopped if there was a Yes vote.

    I spent a day about three weeks ago printing out Wee Blue Books in large print format. Enough for every flat in the local sheltered housing complex. I also printed Jim Sillars’ open letter to pensioners. One of our WFI group had a pass key to the complex and she delivered them to every flat, with the final Yes leaflet and the wee WFI leaflet.

    The trouble is, I have no idea if anyone read them.

  170. Boorach says:

    Will everyone please just get a grip!

    1. Get together with your fellow activists and plan.

    2. Print some leaflets/fliers on an agreed topic… the WBB is still a font of knowledge!

    3. Get the leaflets/fliers out to the people who took us at our word and voted ‘Yes’. Reassure them that we are still here and are going nowhere but forward to an independent Scotland. Keep them interested, RECRUIT them.

    4. Get the leaflets/fliers into the hands of ‘No’ voters; they think it’s all over so may be slightly more amenable.


    Incidently all three boxes from Tain were Yes!

  171. Colin Mccartney says:

    I hope that the wit and humour that characterised WoS during the campaign returns soon. When battling against the “might” of the establishment forces, the quick wit shown on here often gave me an edge, or defused a potentially difficult situation.
    I look forward to laughing again at so many of your posts.
    Thank you.

  172. ronnie anderson says:

    @ Aw Paula Rose ah knew you cared fur me , but honest am a big boy noo ah kin even change ma ain nappys so nothing spethial here move along now. xx

  173. HenBroon says:

    The only way Scotland will win independence is by everyone getting behind the SNP and voting SNP at every single opportunity. It is because of the SNP and Alex Salmond we got to the referendum in the first place, lets keep it there and hit them where it hurts in the ballot boxes at elections.

    To send 40 SNP MPs to Westminster would be a massive signal it may even be enough to hold the balance of power. I can see Alex Salmond making a return there. Once the ball is over the line then Scotland can and will divide up in to it’s political preferences. But first we must punish the charlatans and con merchants of Labour and the rest of them. Vote SNP all the time.

    The Greens and the Socialists need to help us in that. As Tommy Sheridan has already indicated. Only then will we become as powerfull as the state machine that rolled us over, with it’s lies and propaganda. What ha shappened since must make everyone sick. Including vast numbers of No voters who have been stung.

    The surge in SNP memberships is very encouraging, and indicates that voters are seeing the SNP as the only way forward now. Please do this folks, it is our only realisitc hope.

  174. Wuffing Dug says:

    Wish all this speculation would stop, let’s move on. Anyway, managed to join the SNP earlier on tonight – never been motivated to join a political party before, feels strange to me – casting a yes vote should have been enough. The BBC, media and no supporting businesses will soon be feeling our collective wrath if we keep this up. I’ve been kicked in the arse and am off the bench – feels good becoming an ‘agitator’. I live in Aberdeen for my sins, how fucking ashamed can you be.

  175. Mealer says:

    I know exactly how you feel.Thanks for everything.The referendum must be looked on as an essential part of a process.We got the debate and it opened the peoples minds to independence.

  176. bookie from hell says:

    last time a bunch of SNP went to westminster it ended in disaster

    need YEScanidates from all parties

  177. HenBroon says:

    WTF happened to my post?

    The only way Scotland will win independence is by everyone getting behind the SNP and voting SNP at every single opportunity. It is because of the SNP and Alex Salmond we got to the referendum in the first place, lets keep it there and hit them where it hurts in the ballot boxes at elections.

    To send 40 SNP MPs to Westminster would be a massive signal it may even be enough to hold the balance of power. I can see Alex Salmond making a return there. Once the ball is over the line then Scotland can and will divide up in to it’s political preferences. But first we must punish the charlatans and con merchants of Labour and the rest of them. Vote SNP all the time.

    The Greens and the Socialists need to help us in that. As Tommy Sheridan has already indicated. Only then will we become as powerfull as the state machine that rolled us over, with it’s lies and propaganda. What ha shappened since must make everyone sick. Including vast numbers of No voters who have been stung.

    The surge in SNP memberships is very encouraging, and indicates that voters are seeing the SNP as the only way forward now. Please do this folks, it is our only realisitc hope.

  178. ronnie anderson says:

    @ Morag am getting paranoid ah was eating crackers in bed last night, do you think someones watching me.It would have been Walkers shortbread fingers but at £2.99 a pk those tourists in Emboro are being fleeced.

  179. Morag says:

    Hen, that has been my thought since the 1980s. I’ve stuck to it, and to its credit the party hasn’t done too much that I disagreed with.

    For our pains, those of us who joined Scotland’s only independence movement 20 years ago, had to listen to newcomers to the campaign curry favour with the media by declaring “I’m not a nationalist but…” and revealing that “I don’t like Alex Salmond either”.

    The SNP is in this for the long haul and always has been. We’re monstered as “nationalists” and we suck it up and try to explain about self-determination and civic nationalism, rather than trying to pretend that you can support independence for your country without being “a nationalist” of one sort or another.

    Welcome on board to all the new recruits.

  180. Footsoldier says:

    It has to be SNP for the way forward, no other party has the clout, organisation, administration and experience of government. Everyone is free to do what they wish but not getting behind the SNP will simply split the vote.

  181. macnakamura says:

    “Some, like Jim Murphy hugging Tories in Clydebank of all places.”
    Read this earlier.

    Any pics? Anyone?


  182. alistair says:

    @yesindyref2 / morag and others.
    I thought it was just me – thank goodness others out there thought that the official Yes material and website was feeble. When you saw all the brilliant graphics used on line compared to the official yes stuff. I thought the booklet they sent out on the last week wasn’t bad but that should have been sent out on week1 not the last week !
    I think learning point for me (along lines of Wbb) is to crowd fund printing powerful material and getting it out there. Because Wbb didn’t come from a political party made a big difference with a lot of people. (Some) people were getting pissed off with the politicians so its good to have independent material. We need more of that next time round.

  183. Roughian says:

    I came to this site by accident a few months ago, well after many of you. What impressed me most was the dissection of Better Together statements and stories. This dissection was usually backed up with fact, sometimes so basic it was embarrassing. Occasionally I got fed up with some of the comments but just put that down to we’re all different.
    We’ve been stuffed and some have to get the disappointment out their system now lets back to what you do best exposing the lies and coverups, especially when done with a sense of humour, something sorely lacking from the No Campaign.
    We have a billboard near us at Longcroft. It has pound coins on it and along the bottom “Don’t risk your pound, pay, pension. Vote No” They paid lots of money for this type of advertising. Somebody stuck a YES sticker over the No and for a couple of pence screwed them.
    My IT skills are nothing compared to you lot so all I can do is pass on the info. you give me. I was able to swing 3 no’s and 10 undecided over to yes because of WOS. Please folks lets build on our strengths and get on with the fight.

  184. Natasha says:

    Hi folks
    Brilliant article, Doug, and good for you Morag, might see you soon at a local meeting (I’m in Jedburgh). Just managed to get onto the SNP website at last and joined up with my husband; now browsing “We are the 45” merchandise ready for October 12th (thanks for the info on that, guys). Looking forward to seeing lots of you there; can’t wait to drive along the M8 with my saltires and my 45 signs.

    Have been wearing my spider necklace to work since Monday; no one’s dared ask me what it means. Yes sticker back on car, Yes badge and wristband back on as soon as I leave work. Love you all (not the trolls)- of course we will get there, it’s just going to take a wee bit longer than we thought. Hail Alba.

  185. EphemeralDeception says:

    I am fed up with conspiracy theories that look at the atomic aspect of the vote. Strategy looks at the big picture.

    We need to read up on Noam Chomsky for some basic guidance and best practice against States and establishment.

  186. Natasha says:

    Can’t believe I’m stuck in moderation; is this what happens when you don’t post for a day or 2? 🙂

  187. liz g says:


    Morag see whit yiv dun

    Wan mention o yer tail bone and that Ronnie Anderson is talkin aboot his bedroom habits

    Paula Rose will be sooo pissed [AND NOT IN A GOOD WAY]

  188. Chic McGregor says:

    I think there are attacks going on I had an innocuous post not get through this morning.

  189. Ken500 says:

    Last tine Unionists candidates were set from Scotland it ended in disaster. An illegal war, secretly wasted Oil revenues, tax evasion, a bank crash, an enomous debt caused by London Bankers, austerity, people being sanction and having to walk to food banks. What was the SNP disaster again?

    SNP protected NHS/Education, elderly care, bus passes, alleviated ‘room tax’ etc. New Forth bridge, Commonwealth Games. Hopefully AWPR.

  190. HandandShrimp says:

    I think the huge thread lengths make things a bit cranky too. I’ve had a couple disappear into the ether.

  191. Chic McGregor says:

    Didn’t attend the count but I have attended counts in the past and agree that fiddling the actual count would be next to impossible.

    I do have concerns in regard to postal voting though.

    Most obvious I suppose is the registering of a vote before the latter part of the campaign has been completed.

    There are reasonable questions too as to whether it is more susceptible to impersonation or whether it is as free from close proximity partisan influences on the voter as the polling stations are at the point of execution.

  192. Chic McGregor says:

    Didn’t attend the count but I have attended counts in the past and agree that fiddling the actual count would be next to impossible.

    I do have concerns in regard to postal voting though.

  193. Snode1965 says:

    Wow! What has happened to this comments section? Is this some kinda test sent down fae the Rev? I used to get a real buzz here from the regular “45” people that posted. I realise your all pretty frazzled, so take a break from WOS. We need positivity not a bitch fight!! There are thousands of people like myself, who are new to political engagement, reading these comments. You guys have your ” dark room” for refuse, so fucking use it!

  194. A.N.Surgent says:

    Im assuming that the GE campaigns by the unionists parties will be based on more fear and lies, the bigger the lie and the scarier the story will win. It worked here and other places.

    Im also assuming that the no voters in Scotland will be more wary of this negative campaigning style, especially as their lies and scaremongering are exposed over the next few months.

    The great thing for the SNP is that the GE is taking place not long after the ref. As long as we stay on the ball which is to get rid of blab, theres lots still to play for.

  195. yesindyref2 says:

    A couple of campaign mistakes I heard of from NOes who did a bit of campaigning. First was people handing out the WBB saying it was neutral, when in the introduction it clearly says it’s pro-independence. Second was a YES campaigner rattling on about the Poll Tax and Thatcher – to a 24 year old who wasn’t even born for poll tax. That led to the conversion to NO of about 5 to 10 of that age group in the last week.

    Next time it’s got to stick to the absolute truth, and be targetted. BT clearly targetted their campaigners according to age and demographics. The grassroots didn’t, and that’s not a criticism, an out of control grassroots is obviously out of control and that’s a huge strength – but also a potential weakness.

  196. Ken500 says:

    Maj who gets £400million a year maintenance. Increased £5Million a year in 2011 Budget. Bought new £2million coach to go with the collection. A personal fortune of £300million.

    Some people have no shame. 5 people in the UK own more than 1/5, (20%) of the population. The wealth of the wealthiest increased 15% last year.

  197. Hamish says:

    How about we all stop slagging each other off or it will tear us apart and 45 will start to shrink.

    We need to galvanise ourselves, plan and go forth and multiply. Take the message out to the 55 that we have been sold a donkey. There will be no more meaningful powers, there is loads of oil, our NHS is in jeopardy. More importantly we need to make traditional Labour voters see that our current MP’s and MSP’s have lied to us all along the line. We must gather behind an individual candidate for each Westminster constituency for the GE. For many it will be hard to swallow that the candidate will be SNP however we must be reassured that the outcome will yield the desired effect. Harder still of course will be when we go out and canvass the less astute that this is the only way to make significant progress after the calamity that we have just endured.

    I have been personally heartened to see the upsurge of support of the pro indy parties and the generally positive outlook of most on social media but we must exercise strict self discipline to avoid squabbling about the minutia or indeed trying to exert our own specific brand of politic. This is far to big to risk splitting the vote over whether you are x or y or z. What counts is we all want our marvellous nation to become a truly independent country. We work out the politics after we have achieved the independance.

  198. Dr Jim says:

    There are people coming on here who’s mission in life is to upset us and divert thinking “PLEASE” do yourselves a favour “DO NOT ENGAGE WITH THEM”

  199. TJenny says:

    Hey, now that we’ve all blown a gasket and got gripes of our chest, can we get back to being the wonderful Wingers that we are?

    ‘Cause Stuey’s back and just tweeted:

    ‘Belated thanks to @euanmccolm for the thousands of pounds that finally arrived in our bank this week for his defamation in the Scotsman.’

    Wonder if the payment was deliberately delayed to after the indy ref? (Need to take my tin foil hat off!)

  200. Tina Taylor says:

    Hi, I assume comments are moderated as I posted earlier but no appearance of it. Perhaps as it’s my first post I’m regarded as a troll? I am not, I assure you, but you don’t know me so my assurances count for nothing really. I appreciate many of you who worked tirelessly, you must be exhausted after all that hard work, I know my friend is, but I take a bit umbrage at calling new SNP members freeloaders, it makes this page sound like a clique and that you don’t want new contributors. I just joined the party, yes, but that does not mean that I didn’t have discussions and try to extend information to people who do not use social media or indeed pay attention to the news, I perhaps didn’t sign up as a volunteer (very personal reasons for that) but I did what I could with the means I had. Nothing compared to your efforts obviously. Yes, I wish I had been able to do more and hope to be more active now, but calling people freeloaders is quite a negative way to describe people who are on your side. Thank-you for getting us this far, we newbies will be looking for guidance from you as to how to campaign and get the word out. Please don’t discriminate. I have every respect for you.

    As a final note, my previous post was meant to be tongue-in-cheek as it seemed things were getting heavy and I thought a silly post about a minor point might lighten things. Apologies for interrupting.

  201. Graeme Doig says:

    Wee Alex

    So Heriot Watt have decided they have the technology to extract more oil than we could before last Thursday. I’m sure they were up all night and managed to make the discovery at 6am.

    Wish i used HW for all my learning needs so i could boycott them as well.

    What are we up against here … FFS!

  202. chalks says:


  203. Morag says:

    Actually I was wondering if Stu in the end managed to keep aside enough of the crowdfunding cash to tide him and the site over till January, as was his originally stated intention.

    Looks like McColm has that covered for us.

  204. yesindyref2 says:

    By the way, a way of targetting care homes might be from those who know the people who work there, gently enlisting them to YES.

  205. Valerie says:

    More bad news emerging, Fracking to begin, geology testing going ahead now in West Lothian, and near to Glasgow.

    This was another one of my “things” for voting Yes. Westminster had snuck back control from Holyrood, but if we had become Indy….

    I feel that in less than a week, all the things I thought we would be delivered from, are just all crawling out of the woodwork 🙁

    On a brighter note, Sandra White in Holyrood today told Labour to hang their heads in shame at the fear tactics, which she outlined and everyone knows about. She said this was not a fair referendum, and she asked why had the media not covered so much of what everyone knew.

  206. Faltdubh says:

    Interesting read here so far.

    I think our Yes faults were minimal. One thing, was the grey vote – we didn’t really do enough to persaude them or attract them there were everthing from Asians for Yes to Otters for Yes, yet no Pensionsers for Yes?

    Again, I don’t know much it would have done though – as I’ve heard of hand from friends of their OAP relatives saying “Aye” to them, but going in the booth and ticking No.

    Now though – we have a lot to be excited about.

    These new powers will not come to anything. All these proposals are old setbacks of what they never (Union parties) promoted in the past.

    SNP under Nicola will agree to the basics, but we can fight for more and I think we (I joined them on Friday) should go in on a ticket of Devo Max in 2015 election. The Yes Alliance reformed can help us win seats in Glasgow/west coast ex Labour areas – plus the SNP heartlands – to get a good number of MPs and we fight on that ticket demanding as Gordon Brown said” as close to Federalism as can be”.

    It’s win win for Yes after the defeat.

    Look at Women for Indy, Radical Indy, the SNP/Green and SSPs members – all through the roof.

    The Alliance would work also because in Westminister – we fight under a Devo Max/Indy alliance whilst for Holyrood we could all stand our own tickets as SNP, Greens, SSP – I bet you we could end up seeing over a 100 pro-Indy MSPs in 2016.

    The genie is certainly out and it’s no going back in.

    Just need a wee bity of patience, planning and most of all, team work from all the Yes movements. We put away petty issues that we don’t agree as parties/movements when forming the Alliance just like we did for the Yes campaign.

    And work together.

    I think judging by the spring in Salmond, Nicola and the SNP members I’ve seen and heard in the media.

    That we may something similarish to this.

    Who kens though.

    Love to you all, and keep your heads up!

    If you asked me a week tonight before the vote, if it was a No wuld I see Independence? I probably would have been done with Scotland/politics, but nah, I’m just get started.

    And so are the
    7000 new Greens
    3000 new SSP members
    35000 SNP members

    Let’s go again, folks.

  207. alistair says:

    I’ve just seen Nicola changed her facebook pic on the 19th to OneScotland. That was one of my suggested names for a Yes Movement going forward rather than solely a SNP one. Wouldn’t it be good if SNP take initial lead to keep the movement going forward. Citizen Smart has been blogging hard on this idea. I agree but I know others say get all behind SNP. Will be interesting what comes out their conference in November.

  208. Chic McGregor says:

    Hey, nothing wrong wi the Hairy Twatt.

  209. Paula Rose says:

    What makes you think there weren’t those who work in care homes keeping an eye on things – I was.

  210. Claire McRagin says:

    Hullo everybody!
    This is my first ever comment on WoS.
    Ive been abit shy to reveal masil but lve been like a spacehopper filled way explosives ever since the heartbreaking result.
    Ive loved reading the wonderful comments on here and they certainly added to the frenzied build up to the referendum.
    The sight of the Dougie ‘English bull terrrier lookalike’ Alexander proudly singing Jerusalem at the Labour Conference today was the last straw!!
    I couldnt silence ma mooth any longer.
    I thought Davie ‘belly ulcer’ Camerons conversation way the New York mayor was insult enough but l shouldve known better that the BT circus can ay pull anither blinder oot the poke!!

  211. Morag says:

    If was very late in the campaign before our mole with the entree to the sheltered housing complex came forward. We saw a WFI sticker on a car and one of our SNP activists sleuthed out who she was, and she turned into a great asset. But I wish we’d known about her six months ago.

  212. alistair says:

    @yesindyref2 – enlist care workers.
    Yes, that and as many nurses/NHS staff as possible.
    I’m in a pretty big No/Tory area and I’ve made a note of the few brave souls who put up yes windows stickers in the last day or so. Personally going to go round and ask them if they will get involved as they will have lots of No friends who need someone they know to start working them over to Yes. As soon as SNP conference is over and lie o f land is clearer then I’m hoping I’ll have some friendly neighbours who will be able to start getting out there again.

  213. Grendel says:

    My replies in CAPS (apologies in advance)
    Ealasaid says:
    24 September, 2014 at 8:15 pm
    Many thanks to Doug, Morag and many others that were following the ballots or at the counts for telling us how the system works. I never knew all that before. It was very enlightening.
    I do not believe that 400,000+ votes were rigged. I believe that it was the BBC wot done it and that a UKIP MEP in Scotland was the dry run. It explains all the delight from the BBC staff at the win.

    However it is now time to move on. If we are to take Labour on directly in their own constituencies perhaps we can learn about the opposition around the ballot from some of the comments.

    First up they were very well organised. Helping old folk to register and cast their votes. How did they know where all the old folk live (age/address and telephone number)? Can we also get their source of information and use it in a similar way.

    Secondly, they went round to the doors of the old folk, posing as officials. Warning that they would be back to collect the pension book if there was a Yes vote. We really need to get round the old folk to counter any such blatant lies and reassure.

    Thirdly they are very tribal. Ignored other people at the polling station and went straight to their own representatives. Is there any way to break this down or infiltrate to let another point of view in?

    Fourth, where do they get their support from? Are the Unions still involved to any extent? Should we approach Unions?
    Fifth, as some are concerned about ballot boxes not being followed and there not being enough people to accompany them all, then more of us should volunteer and we would see the system for ourselves. Or we could get tracking devices in them all.
    Just a few things to work on. We need to know the enemy in order to take them on effectively, and we need to start moving on now!



  214. Robert Peffers says:

    @Colin Mccartney says: 24 September, 2014 at 9:21:

    “thanks Robert, you learn something every day – bonus points for being the first lol”

    Believe me, Colin, I’d very much like to not need to use the system of Postal Ballots and, especially here in Fife, am charry of doing so. In fact I was checking several times a day as it was getting very near referendum day before I had confirmation they had my vote. Most of the time I could male it to the poll but I take unpredictable bad turns and only get abouit 30 Minutes warning they are about to start. Worse still they are, “Episodic”, meaning if I do have an attack it is the start of an episode of such attacks and that’s it until I’ve been free of attacks for at least a week.

    It kind of ruins doing anything. The most annoying thing is I can often go months without an attack.

  215. yesindyref2 says:

    Graeme Doig
    In fairness there were a couple of great reports from oil came out in the last week before the referendum, but not in time perhaps for the implications to sink in. Perhaps Ian Wood stirred up a few counter research projects which took time to complete.

  216. Ananurhing says:

    After the shenanigans of the 2008 Glenrothes by election, and over 90 different postal vote fraud investigations after 2010 WM general election, you can’t blame folk for being suspicious of anything overseen by the Electoral Commission.

    I agree with Chic. If anything happened at the count, it was miniscule. However I have real concerns about the postal vote. Labour have form with this, and seem to get better at covering their tracks with each election.

  217. Midgehunter says:

    The Rev has more or less been away for a few days taking it easy, chatting to friends, thinking about new ideas and in general getting over the Ref.

    He left Wings to get on with itself and I don’t think he’ll be very chuffed with what he’s seen today. To many of the regulars being bad tempered, short fuses, nerves plainly showing.

    You were easy targets for the trolls. 🙁

    Calgacus should stay as well.

  218. yesindyref2 says:

    I’m quite positive that the lack of positivity shown at times is positively unusual but is the inversely proprotional reaction to the positivity of the campaign that despite that, led to non-positive results and therefore a positively enormous outburst of non-positive reactions and counter-reactions.

    Of that I’m quite positive.

  219. Ann says:

    It kind of saddens me hearing what was happening to pensioners.

    It totally goes against the grain of what is instilled in us from childhood. That our grannies and di’s are special people and that we should respect them, listen to them, look out for them and protect them. Not threaten them.

    I know that many may not have families near or any at all and it was these vulnerable ones that I feel were targeted.

    For those in sheltered housing though. The carers or caretakers should have been advising them not to answer doors and if they did and felt in anyway threatened, they should press the emergency buzzers to get someone up to move the pests from their doors and be warned not to return.

    I mean if anyone had come and threatened my dad, God bless is soul, I would have found them and smacked them in the face.

    I’m just thankful that my elderly aunt has a large, extended supportive family around her, and that nearly every single one of us old enough to vote, said YES.

    Next time we will have to be good neighbours and watch out for our elderly. Mind you next time I feel that they will be a lot more savvy and streetwise.

  220. Graeme Doig says:


    Cheers for perspective.

  221. highseastim says:

    What a difference a week makes, last week Milliband claimed the Scots were being fed scare stories about the NHS, this week he says it needs saving!! Last week oil was going to run out in 10/15 years, new announcement today decades more oil forecast and finally last week no more wars, this week parliament being recalled to discuss……..GOING TO WAR!!

    We knew the truth, but how easily have the not so clever been duped!!

  222. Ananurhing says:

    Here’s something to cheer everyone up.

    Our glorious new leader ready for business. I have this on the wall by my computer. Oh be still my trembling knees.

  223. Paula Rose says:

    Ananurhing – calm down dear.

  224. ewen says:

    Jeezo. WTF happened.
    A big stooshie over something that is over and finished.

    We all know that WM and the burrs are capable of a wee bit of gerrymandering but what I have seen going on here is what they want…internal bickering.

    Complaining about the ballot rigging is a dead end. Look forward, not back and don’t give the scotbuts any label they can fix on us.

    Hold your head up, grit your teeth and learn from any mistakes we made.

  225. ronnie anderson says:

    @liz g I made no mention of Morag fawin o her erse Morags a Lady , wee tip Morag dont try walking in Paula Roses Saltire heels.

  226. crazycat says:

    @ Grendel

    I was both a polling agent and a counting agent, although as it turned out there were plenty of the former and I spent all day helping in our shop and only went into the polling station to vote myself. Why should I not also have attended the count (in your view)?

  227. Ananurhing says:

    Paula Rose

    Yes dear, no dear, sorry dear. I’ll get my cereal.

  228. Natasha says:

    Maybe this will get through: joined SNP, looking forward to Hope over Fear on 12th October, love you all, keep fighting. Hail Alba. 🙂

  229. Natasha says:


  230. Natasha says:

    Third time lucky? Joined SNP, love you all, see you on the 12th of October. 🙂

  231. Natasha says:


  232. Melanie Carr says:

    Why did Ruth Davidson have access to sample votes before 10pm on the 18th? And why was there two different types of ballot papers, some with a serial and writing and some blank?

  233. Morag says:

    There was no limit on the number of polling agents any group could appoint. Because of this, all our volunteers were given polling agents’ credentials. This allowed those of us who were also counting agents us to do a bit of polling station work in the middle of the day.

    I had a long lie to give me a bit of stamina for the night ahead, then went out and voted and helped with polling station visits and GOTV for a while, then quit early to make sure I was in the counting hall for 10 pm.

    I have absolutely no idea why Grendel in his eye-peeling capital-letters rant thinks there’s any problem with this.

  234. yesindyref2 says:

    I didn’t do hardly anything locally as I was away a lot and then busy full-time with the Herald when not working, but I’ve started dropping it into conversation sussing people out, and I do know 3 or 4 YES around I’ll make / keep contact with. It’s a 75% NO area and to be honest I’m surprised it was as much as 25% YES! Maybe encouraged too. A lot of No targets 🙂 Mmmmmmm, tasty, food, I like food.

    Paula Rose
    Indeed, and lets’s get a lot more!

    The shocker is how many people have no integrity. Lies, they know they’re lies, and they persisted with the lies. I don’t think we had any answer to that, and still don’t.

  235. Calgacus says:

    Thank you for your very kind comment Midgehunter.

  236. yesindyref2 says:

    Maybe history kind of repeats itself 100 years on:
    Ireland Timeline

    1914 World War 1. Home Rule shelved for the duration.
    1916 Easter Rising
    1918 Irish GE, Sinn Féin won 73 out of 105 seats.
    1919 Declaration of Independence.
    1919-1921 War and riots
    1921 Anglo-Irish Treaty was signed
    1922 Creation of the Irish Free State

    For Easter Rising substitute One Scotland (I like it) and Sturgeon Rising, and we’ll skip the wars and riots and go straight to the 2016 2nd Referendum.

  237. Fairliered says:


    For fox ache, the count was not rigged!
    The electorate were systematically lied to by the ("Quizmaster" - Ed) British Labour Party (Scotlandshire branch) using their propaganda arm, BBC Scotland!
    Forget the count. Concentrate on destroying the Labour Party at the General Election.
    If it is destroyed, it will remove the lifeblood of its propaganda department – the vile BBC.
    There is work to do, and plenty workers to do it.
    Conspiracy theorists – shut up and join us!

  238. Colin Mccartney says:

    @Robert Peffers

    Stay well mate. I know people need a postal vote. My mum is 80, had a knee replacement 3 weeks ago, but managed, with help, to get to the polling station to vote for what she believes in for her children and grandchildren. We need to make it easier, but more secure, for all those, who for whatever reason, are not able to get to a polling station, but feel they need to make their democratic vote count.

  239. Robert Peffers says:

    Now I did expect it but it still disgusts me. Labour Party hacks claiming to be socialists telling OAPs that their pensions would be taken away if they voted YES.

    I used to treat these people as just political opponents but that’s the last straw for me. The other thing that has upset me, and I do not upset easily, was Nick Robinson’s lie that he didn’t get an answer. I was in My pal’s house tonight and Robinson came on. I didn’t say a word but my pal’s wife asked me if a felt all right as I looked like I was unwell.

    It was just the effort required to stop yelling lying Bas*&^( at the screen. Seems I had gone a wee bit red in the face and she though my BP was at dangerous levels.

  240. Alan Mackintosh says:

    Morag, re your conversation with the SNP councillor and the pensioners. Do you have a contact for him/her. I have a contact here in the highlands trying to collate examples of this sort of behaviour. that goes for others too if they have any info. I recall Scrodingers cat mentioned something earlier on.

  241. Cheradenine says:

    Actually, we lost because of immigrants. The Herald reports today that 51% of ‘Scots-born’ voted for independence. It was immigrants who handed victory to the No side.

  242. Colin Mccartney says:

    @Robert Peffers

    I don’t pay the TV tax, so i miss the opportunity of screaming at the TV. But I believe its quite cathartic

  243. liz g says:

    @ Ronnie Anderson
    I know you did’nt exactly mention Morags arse

    But I am only over here in Abronhill and I heard you


  244. James F says:

    The single best the Yes campaign can render itself utterly pointless in short order is to carry on talking about this seriously. Claiming the poll was rigged by deliberate miscounts, votes being lost, or other such crude measures is on a par with the ‘9/11 was a conspiracy by Elvis’ type fringe nutters.

  245. Michael McCabe says:

    Reading the earlier posts. I think handclapping is for yes. A round of Applause for handclapping Please.

  246. Morag says:

    Alan, I’m sorry, it was the wee hours of the morning and I can’t be sure which one of the group I was talking to. Hopefully others will be able to give you a better lead.

    One guy at work said they came after his mother in Fort Augustus, but in that case there seem to have been enough weasel words to amount to plausible deniability.

  247. liz g says:


    Ronnie Anderson

    Paula Rose

    and last but no least
    Morag’s Arse

    SORRY for posting rubbish at you,but could not stand the way the conversation was going.
    I hope I am right in thinking you all got it xxx

  248. iain says:

    This vote was rigged two years ago when the vote was agreed they would not have agreed to a two question answer if they were not so confident that they could fix it the same happened in 1979 but without social media they got away with it so easily they did not realise that social media is fast overtaking mainstream and their time will come ,lets hope we can recover the money that they have stolen from us the general public

  249. LizM says:

    Hi Liz you also in Abronhill? Me too, I drive big blue jeep 🙂

  250. LizM says:

    To Liz sorry forgot to ask, did we meet during campaign?

  251. Alan Mackintosh says:

    Ok, thanks morag. We had a few strange things here too. someone came into the shop saying her pensioner father had been abused (calling him an english b’stard)) by our Yes canvassers. But his happened in an area where we hadnt been, and at 11am, when we always go out in early evening weekdays. And another example at 8am of someone heading to work, long before we were ever out.

    Dirty tricks brigade on call

  252. liz g says:

    @Alan Mackintosh 1121pm
    I also have a complaint in progress from a Polling Station
    I am trying to get hold of the lady I was chatting to, who,ended up staying with me,because of the behavior towards me from the Better Together Rep.

    She was someone I kind of know and had helped out in the past with her dog,but I do not so far know if she is willing to get involved
    Do you think it is worth taking further if she will be a witness ?

  253. Morag says:

    Alan, no reports of that sort of thing round here.

  254. Ronnie says:

    Is there a reason in this day and age that voters are not required to provide photo or some other form identification when showing up to vote?

    Would it not be a lot easier to have a standard voting slip to be used across the board rather than having several different versions that were all acceptable and yet caused confusion across the country.

    I am not criticizing the process just offering observations and a possible solution in the future.

  255. liz g says:

    Liz M
    Dont know if we met

    But amazing you are local because you are the reason I am liz G

    Were you at the BBC Demo’s ?

  256. Bittie45 says:

    There is at least one paper already referenced by “THE BIGGER THE LIE” on youtube – are there others? The collecting of video evidence needs to be completed before it gets timed out or “shredded”. Also we need the journalists disillusioned with what’s gone on in their newsrooms to come forward. Are there websites out there that are collating this sort of thing?

  257. liz g says:

    Liz M


  258. liz g says:

    Liz M
    I am the Idiot who had her yes poster in the bathroom window because it was the only one that faced the car park
    Only someone from Abronhill can understand this

  259. Bittie45 says:

    Vote-rigging aside, I don’t think I’d feel so bad if the NO folk were basing their decisions on balanced facts given by an “unbiased” state broadcaster.

  260. scottish matters (@ochayethenews) says:

    Next time, outside organisation to oversee. UN or such. Too important.

  261. Valerie says:

    Not wanting to stir the pot, but just seen front page of Glasgow Herald for tomorrow, and Ruth Davidson is getting Police on her for the comment about postal ballot sampling. Electoral Commission have called them in 🙂

    look up thefront pages site

  262. Bittie45 says:

    Sorry Liz M & Liz G

    Didn’t mean to interrupt – have been trying unsuccessfully to post for while now, suddenly they went through – timing!

  263. Alex Clark says:

    I’ve avoided posting like I might catch Ebola or something since the referendum. The threads are infected with all kinds of stuff that I didn’t want to catch.

    I’ve suspect that this is just the attempt at the “bayoneting of the wounded”.

    The conspiracy crap is purely to cause divide and clearly has, don’t engage in it for the sake of your own blood pressure. You can guarantee the more that fall for this then the sooner it will be exposed in the MSM as the “nutty” Yes supporters.

    It is a tactic to divide us from the mainstream, lots and lots of posters I’ve never heard of doing just that these last few days.

    I’m also not sure of this “45” movement. Absolutely smacks of 1745 and again another means of having the MSM slag you off as Nationalist and anti English, I personally will avoid.

    I think we all need to have a wee rest and recharge the batteries, there are ways to win Independence and we can figure them out. The posts over the last few days don’t meet that criteria.

    It is now that they want to break the YES support, because you are at your weakest mentally after the defeat. Don’t fall for that.

  264. Rock says:

    Robert Pennington,

    “I have no problems with the count, but I don’t seem to be able to get any reassurance about the security of postal ballots or about the safety of ballot boxes in transit. And I thin to trust the UK regime is naive in the extreme.”

    I am of the same opinion.

    The UK regime is too clever to leave any evidence of its black arts operations.

    Rigging the vote at the count itself would have been madness. Whatever impression they give, they are NOT mad.

  265. thejourneyman says:

    As a Yes campaigner it puzzles me that NO could get the vote out for the kind of majority they did after our brilliant grassroots movement and that’s where my mistrust starts.
    I also understand and believe Dougs conviction, but the first whiff of something not right was on telly between 10 and 11 on polling night in Ruth Davidsons comments to Glen Campbell, my wife and I commented at the time. Today’s front page of the Herald says it’s been referred to the police. Dundee and Glasgow results are the biggies for me, fire alarms where YES expected to come in at 70% ends up 55/45? Nothing has been posted regarding the cause of said fire alarms. Record numbers of people coming out to go back on the register was not well heeled NO voters, Yes was driving that campaign but everywhere we expected to claw back other areas the numbers were down on predictions.
    Anyway, criticising “conspiracy theorists” is not that different to calling all Yes campaigners Cybernats, it only takes one good man to do nothing when he thinks a wrong has been committed! Sure let’s plan to move fwd, let’s be positive but that does not need to exclude testing the process that seems to have been flawed in some areas. Where people have genuine concerns about protocols they should feel free to express those without ridicule just as we respect Dougs view that he felt it was above board and fair.

  266. liz g says:

    Alex Clarke 1.00pm
    Can not speak for any one who started the 45 thing

    But can only tell you that my crying kid’s [all in their 20s] and their friends who had gathered at my house loved it

    Think they saw it more as “we are legion ” sort of thing from that movie [the name escapes me at the moment]
    I do not for one second think an old battle battle was in their head.

    Therefore I will support it because the “kid’s” seem to be setting the tone here

    I for one will bow to their judgement after what they just did
    Remember they were and are driving this
    Doing better than we ever did

  267. Konrad the wise warrior says:

    Now please don’t jump at my throat for saying this, but there are a number of documents from the Electoral Commission and specific guidelines that define how ballot papers MUST look.
    Here’s the links:
    See page 18, para 3.35
    See page 20, point (b)

    I appreciate that fiddling hundreds of thousands of votes would be a massive covert operation requiring the complicity of hundreds of people, but given the threat Westminster & co were under I wouldn’t be surprised if they did it, counting on the incredulity of the masses that such daring swindle was even contemplated.

    However, given:

    – the multiple reports (> 80’000) of irregular ballots with a blank back that could have been filled dummy boxes, only to be “switched” en route to the counting place with doctored boxes with official ballots aptly prepared;

    – that statistically areas that were expected to give Yes a chance underperformed so dramatically, and this is where there is the larger incidence of those blank papers;

    – that there are reports of unsealed ballot boxes, officials impeding representatives to read the serial number on the sealing strips, and other irregularities;

    – turnouts collapsing at the final count;

    I stop short from calling foul BUT you cannot stop me thinking this voting procedures are a shambles and are full of security holes.

    Next time we better make sure the voting system is watertight and the legitimacy of the result cannot be put into any doubt, not because officials say it was clean, because witness evidence says the procedure was clean or because thinking the opposite would be mad, but because there is no fucking way to cheat.

  268. Valerie says:

    I am resisting getting drawn in. There is definitely nothing can be rigged at the big count, BUT, because of the system of trust – there are things that can be done in the hours before the count. My own counter to that tho’ is that it would have to be fairly co-ordinated on a grandish scale across all the pockets to spread it out. I worked in Local Govt for 30 years, and the first 10 of those did my polling clerk/officer stints, and very little has changed – the system is archaic, and for that reason it is open to abuse.
    Looking at how the writer Naomi Wolf is helping some, the big issue, and I have no answer to this one, is that many people are now saying their ballot paper had no unique reference number – back or front. This is very weird.

  269. Donunder says:

    I’m no tin foil hat wearing conspiracy theorist but I do think it is perfectly legitimate to ask questions about what can appear as unusual behaviour to the layman if for no other purpose than to stop the conspiracy theorists in their tracks.

    For example, there is a video if the Dundee counting hall during the fire alarm evacuation which showed an empty hall apart from one police officer and two people messing about with bundles of papers.

    I’m pretty sure there is a legitimate explanation for this and somebody who was present in Dundee will be able to explain it.

  270. Alex Clark says:

    @liz g

    My own son in his late 20’s now uses the “45” as his facebook avatar.

    I’m just expressing my reservations as to how it could also be used against those supporting Independence next time an opportunity comes around.

  271. Rock says:


    I agree with you.

    The unionists wouldn’t have looked so smug at 10 pm if they weren’t sure of victory.

    Even Cameron has admitted his worries about Yes being in front.

    So how could Kellner be 99% sure of a No victory when even the No side were worried about losing and most commentators were calling it ‘knife edge’?

    The electoral process has always been flawed, and I wonder if it is meant to be so.

    The SNP might even have won a majority in 2007 if the flawed system had not caused tens of thousands of cast ballots being rejected.

    The Electoral Commission is corrupt and biased.

    We have to move on, but it most definitely was not a free and fair vote. So called ‘banana republics’ probably have more democratic votes.

  272. liz g says:

    Alan Clarke
    Forgot to add agree with the rest of you’re post
    Have been trying all night to disrupt the confrontational stuff
    I am more of a lurker but still an addict who will not stand by and see this site damaged

  273. liz g says:

    Alan Clarke
    I agree but they will trash any thing that we use any way

  274. liz g says:

    Don’t forget Alan we won hand’s down when every thing BT tried to promote became a laughing stock

  275. LizM says:

    I was luckier than you all my windows either face main road or a well travelled path (Ash). Plus big blue jeep parked close by or up at town centre (work 🙁 ). Didn’t manage PQ demos but took part in cavalcade that ended up at Kelpies. Did a lot of talking to colleagues, friends and family. Every little helps along with WBBs 🙂

  276. liz g says:

    @Liz M
    Asked about the demo because I did most of my stuff back in Chryston cause I haven’t stayed here very long.
    Thought I was more use where people knew me.
    I am in Alder
    Don’t know where Ash is
    Are you going to anything else?

  277. Thinkstank says:

    @Hen Broon (and @ everyone else on WoS)

    My first post on WoS – only discovered this site a couple of days before the referendum but decided to get involved anyway to help stay mentally active and in that zone that we all need to be in; and stay in – respect for each other and the determination to move forward in the face of adversity.

    anyway, @HenBroon, you mentioned a valid point that nobody seemed to pick up on or talk about, not sure how valid my input is but I’ll put my two bob’s worth in anyway.

    I read somewhere (maybe even here lol) that in the next GE if we can secure more than 50% of the Scottish seats at WM we can have another referendum on Independence (that’s 25+ seats out of 50)

    Further to that, I recall the same article saying that if we can secure more a healthy majority of those 50 seats we can sidestep a referendum entirely and and declare independence……something along those lines…I may have the exact facts a touch mixed up but the article I read seemed legit when I read it.

    This is (IIRC) why we are to all get behind the SNP, not merely to swell their numbers but to have a greater chance of winning that majority and breaking the rusty cage that we’ve been locked into by this No vote.

    Why anyone of a thinking mind would vote in such a way that allows them to have even less of a tiny miserable voice politically is beyond me.

    Next time out we need to all pitch in to the fullest extent with the facts at hand that people need, they need to know we are not voting SNP or Alex Salmond, we are voting Scotland, then we pick who runs the joint…..we need to let them know the facts about our potential finances, about the NHS, about welfare and more.

    Anything we can answer for people we should. The BS together campaign and the Yes campaign were both wholly ineffective as their hands were tied on TV so grassroots is where it needs to be. The 60,000 SNP members are a great start, they need to be that person answering the questions….we all do.

    I am personally going to join as I believe it will help, despite leaning toward SSP. I must say my political ideals don’t currently matter, nor should anyone elses’. Get Independence first then squabble about the details. Work together regardless, that’s us.

    I would highly appreciate it if anyone can clarify the above mentioned figures etc about WM seats.
    I would personally prefer to just side step another chance for WM to interfere and declare independence outright.

    If it can be done that should be our collective goal, not another referendum. We can take that as a backup plan lol.

  278. Ian M says:

    A couple of points
    A positive campaign over a negative one every time.
    The voting is over it is time to move on.
    The duplicity of the MSM is difficult to combat but by the time we get another vote many of the older folk will watching from above.
    Newspaper reporters can be challenged by letters to the editor.
    The scare mongering tactics did not appear to be handled very well although timing was a problem.
    Do not change the name from SNP that name is synonymous with independence for Scotland. If the SNP can continue to rule Scotland wisely they will bring more and more people over to our side.

  279. jock mc X says:

    I’ve heard numerous times before and after sept 18th that scotland has changed for ever.
    So why dont we change something?
    One thing that has always annoyed me about election campaigns
    is that during the campaign we are bombarded with polititions
    begging for our votes,tv coverage,newspaper coverage and leaflets through our doors.
    Then nothing.
    We are to sit back and watch the polititions do whatever they like.
    So lets reach out to the people who were not convinced by the yes campaigns case.
    We believe we won the argument,lets state it again,make sure everyone gets IT.
    A mass leafletting campaign Anyone?
    Perhaps Newpaper Size
    but we gotta get moving folks.

  280. AshleyKane says:

    Sick & tired of bloody geriatrics f*ing with election outcomes. In addition to allowing 16-17 yr olds to vote, all persons *over 70 years* should be BANNED from voting for the following reasons:

    1. 1/4 suffer from Alzheimers and other forms of dementia
    2. 2/3 are heavily medicated taking numerous cocktails of pharmaceuticals for chronic conditions
    3.Due to points 1&2, vast majority of elderly no longer have the faculties nor judgement to OPERATE a motor vehicle, yet they are entrusted to vote?!
    4. Reciept of pensions sucking directly from the government teat puts them in direct conflict of interest
    5. Most will be dead within 15-20 years and have the luxury of not having to live with their foolhardy decisions.

    Children are not allowed to vote for their lack of judgement and critical thinking skills. We can all agree that he older one gets the more “child-like” they become. If not a set age limit at least a simple COMPETENCY EXAM should be passed prior to recieving a ballot.

  281. carol mcn says:

    I concur with everything the author has said and am becoming increasingly frustrated at calls for a judicial review. We faced an onslaught of media bias and scaremongering…..and the yes movement/snp left us wide open to attack on a couple of issues, notably the currency issue.

    I have one more query (for the sake of clarification). There is a video clip of Ruth Davidson stating that they had people present at sample openings of the postal ballot. She said, ‘Our people took a tally’ and were fairly confident about the outcome of the vote on the 19th. From the piece above I can’t determine if the yes side had the same opportunity.

  282. A Park says:

    Hi thanks for the explanation Douglas. Did anyone else notice a report from sky news around or on election night that police were investigating a leak of information relating to postal votes? I’ve not seen any mention of this from anyone?

  283. Donella Ann says:

    In Herald this morning…

    Election watchdog calls in police over claims about No camp access to postal votes

    Martin Williams – Senior News Reporter
    Thursday 25 September 2014

    POLICE have been called in to ­investigate allegations Better Together agents breached election law by viewing postal votes to discover how well the No campaign was doing in the weeks before the referendum poll closed.

    The concerns surfaced after Ruth Davidson, the leader of the Scottish Conservatives, declared 45 minutes after the polls closed last Thursday that the campaign had been “incredibly encouraged” by the results of a “sample opening” of the postal ballot that she said had taken place over the previous few weeks.

    She said agents were able to “take tallies” of postal ballots and “the reports have been very positive for us”.

    It has been confirmed that ­the ­Electoral Commission, the independent elections watchdog, has referred a number of complaints it received to the police as the allegations may be of a criminal nature.

    The development comes as the Yes campaign was challenged to accept it had lost the referendum vote instead of sowing division with conspiracy theories and claims No voters were “tricked”.

    Complaints sent to police and the Electoral Commission surrounded agents being able to see the ballot papers and communicate how the vote was going during opening sessions across Scotland in the days running up to September 18.

    According to Elections Scotland guidance, agents present at the opening of postal votes “must observe the requirement of secrecy”. Failure to observe the requirement is a criminal offence punishable by up to 12 months in prison and/or to a fine of up to £5,000….

  284. Doug Daniel says:

    thejourneyman: “Anyway, criticising “conspiracy theorists” is not that different to calling all Yes campaigners Cybernats, it only takes one good man to do nothing when he thinks a wrong has been committed!”

    And coming up with various theories about how the vote could be rigged (despite people who were actually there saying these things didn’t happen) is no different to unionists saying “but what currency will you use?” after being told for the 1,000,000th time that it’ll be Sterling.

    “Where people have genuine concerns about protocols they should feel free to express those without ridicule just as we respect Dougs view that he felt it was above board and fair.”

    Genuine concerns backed with evidence are one thing, but when I last looked at this thread yesterday (I had to come away because it was depressing me too much), we’d descended to the point where those claiming foul were demanding proof that ballot boxes were under constant police supervision.

    There is simply no pleasing those who for some reason have convinced themselves that we won this. You could record every ballot box in Scotland from start to finish and give them the videos, and they’d say “yeah but this has probably been faked”. There’s just no reasoning with people who have decided – without a shred of evidence to support it – that we won the referendum.

  285. Saints Fan says:

    I’ll start by stating No won more legitimate votes than Yes.

    Am I right in thinking the vast bulk of applications for Postal Ballots had already been received by June? I think I read this on WoS.

    18% applicants seems remarkably high, what was the criteria for being awarded a postal ballot? It seems to me its almost easier to get to the polling station than going through the application process for PB and then sending it off.

    A huge number of pensioners preferred to vote at the polling stations on the 18th. Anyone know the breakdown of the Postal Ballots between pensioners/non retired?

    Only seen two reports of how the postal ballots broke at the count Yes/No. One from Edinburgh and the other Aberdeen on this thread. Both say these boxes were 80% No. This for me is surprising because Postal Ballots couldn’t be returned until after the second debate. In the immediate ten days following Salmond’s televised crushing of Darling and the ‘project fear’ narrative – before Brown’s received the limelight to again ramp up the apocalypse – we saw Yes surge by 12% in two YouGov polls, including big movement among the retired. This is the period when the vast majority of PB’s were returned and Yes was hopeful of 40%. But Kellner is indicating it was 71% No from pensioners on the day. Was the PB also this high for No?

  286. Weedeochandorris says:

    Don’t know if anyone has linked this yet, but here you go. The powers that be will investigate so we can all sit back and relax now?

  287. Doug Daniel says:

    Saints Fan – I did a lot of canvassing in the last month, and honestly, the vast majority of people who said they’d already postal voted were Noes.

    There’s a simple reason for the surge in postal vote applications. It used to be that people who had trouble getting to polling stations had to get a lift from campaigners. But hardly anyone needed a lift in Aberdeen, because most of those who normally would now had postal votes. A lot of elderly folk are in this category, and that’s why No had so much support from postal votes.

    Aberdeen also has a special type of person that other cities don’t have: offshore workers. A lot of those got postal votes just in case they ended up being offshore on the day unexpectedly.

    And there’s perhaps one final type of person who would go for postal votes: those who just wanted the whole thing to go away. Again, that’s not going to be Yes voters.

    I came across a few households where the occupants were perfectly physically capable of getting to the polling station, but they’d gotten a postal vote anyway. Considering how lazy we’ve become as a society, it’s no surprise that people should seek to vote in the way that involves the least amount of effort.

  288. Stuart Murray says:

    Doug, I don’t know if the vote was rigged. But I know that we are not living in a democracy. Anyone who thinks the UK establishment is not prepared to rig the vote in Scotland is completely ‘deluded’ (a charge aimed at anyone who has dared lay suspicion on the Referendum result). I’m not claiming to know that the Referendum was rigged. It probably wasn’t. But stories are surfacing which surely merit full investigation.

  289. Muscleguy says:

    @Paul Murphy

    The SRU are skint, seriously skint. They have a pitch infested with NZ flatworms and below international standards and they can’t afford to relay it.

    I just hope they extracted a goodly and ongoing sum from BT for the naming rights.

  290. Morag says:

    Like Doug, I give up. This is like talking to a voter, and explaining sixteen times with graphs and figures how Scotland subsidises the rest of the UK and how we would be a remarkably rich country if we had control of our own resources, only to have them come back yet again and say, but we couldn’t manage without the subsidies from England.

    If the Electoral Commission are going after Ruthie, tee hee. Serves her right. I imagine the most she’ll get is a smack on the wrist, but I hope it’s really embarrassing smack on the wrist.

  291. Alan Mackintosh says:

    As another winger at the count in Dingwall, I have already agreed with Doug that the counts we attended were well run, involving double counting, reconciliation with lists, counting into yes/no, and double checking of these. There would not have been any way of anything dubious being done at the counts, in plain sight.

    Where I disagree is in the lead up where there is potential, be it padding out of voting lists, or failing to register certain voters, postal voters not living here, say with holiday homes in highland (very high No returns from certain Westcoast villages).

    In addition, lets not forget this is the most serious threat the UK state has endured, and if need be they would have the wherewithal and the resources to do whatever, far beyond any Labour by election shenanigans. Did they do it? I honestly dont know. Could they have done it? Undoubtedly

  292. heraldnomore says:

    Ian in Ayrshire on the wireless. Any one we know, perhaps?

  293. chalks says:

    Regarding Peter Murrell and the comments about the SNP back office, they achieved a majority in the Scottish Parliament Elections and in my view should have taken over Yes Scotland far quicker than what they did. The Yes papers were designed for the floating no voter, if you put in loads of articles about various things, you lose their attention, all the papers were positive and the REASON for that is to try and counter the onslaught of negativity that we received from EVERY SINGLE PAPER. Celebs endorsing yes is primarily because every source is denigrating it, so people are putting their head above the parapet and saying its ok to vote yes.

    I do wonder sometimes whether some people on here have ever met no voters as you wouldn’t think it, come up to aberdeenshire oh demi gods of the independence movement and you’ll meet a few.

    Lastly, Andy Murray, it was someone that was connected with the yes campaign that managed to persuade him to come out for indy, he was always for it but didn’t want to piss off people, it’s his choice, if it was me, I don’t know if I would, we all got pissed off with the english celebs getting involved, he doesn’t live in Scotland remember.

  294. Saints Fan says:

    Doug, you and others who have dedicated yourself to Independence are satisfied so others should be very circumspect in crying foul. The SNP, Jim Sillars even Tommie Sheridan have been fighting elections for ions or even have previous intimate knowledge of how the Labour election machine operate. They’re are not even suggesting an audit of the Postals.

  295. Ian Brotherhood says:

    @heraldnomore –

    Wisny me.

  296. Calgacus says:

    @Doug Daniel, thank you for patiently explaining why and how the vote was fair, open and honest.

    I now have every confidence in our democracy and wish to apologise to you and the thousands of other activists on both sides of the debate for doubting the process. I also wish to apologise sincerely to any wingers that I may have offended in this discussion.

    I think that I just couldn’t believe that we had lost the referendum fairly but I now realise that the cheating that went on was not in the counting rooms or tbe postal vote but in the mouths of unionist politicians and their lying media.

    Thanks again for bringing clarity.

  297. Morag says:

    That’s very well said, Calgacus, and thank you.

  298. MarkAustin says:

    Tina says:

    24 September, 2014 at 8:58 pm

    Maybe my OCD, but with it all explained away I don’t personally understand why the no table had mixed piles. If there was a no table there would be a yes table nearby. How difficult to place them on appropriate table as you go? It’s just more work to pile then sort! Either that, or don’t mark the tables until they’re to be separated to avoid the confusion and allegations that were made.. I know it’s all explained but I just find it a bit disorganised. There are other words I would use but that’s the most gracious. Like I say, my OCD, I’d be compelled to sort them out sooner

    Morag has explained it many times. I’ve done it myself, but here goes (again).

    The basic unit in counting votes is the polling district. There are about three in each concillor’s ward, and each one has issued a ballot box, a set of papers and a register, which is marked up as people are issued with a ballot paper and vote.

    At the count, the number of valid ballots issued is determined from the book(s) of ballot papers and, if necessary, the marked register. Each box is then opened and the number of ballots in each box counted to ensure it is the same as the number of ballots issued. Note that at this point there is no attempt to determine the result. The ballots are bundled up in 100s, with the “odds” having a slip of paper giving the number in that bundle.

    Behind the counters are the tables where the ballots will be laid out for, in this case, Yes or No, and the tables are so labeled.

    There isn’t much room where the ballots are being counted
    so, for convenience, they are piled up on the tables.

    After the boxes have been verified, the budles are jumbled up—this is so that you can’t identify the voting patterns in any area, put back in the boxes to keep the uncounted ballots separate, and then they are separated into Yes, No and Doubtful.

    As the trays fill, they are taken off and counted into bundles of 100 and laid out in neat rows on the relevant table so that they can be counted. I’ve been at counts where they had card labels for 1000, 2000… put in as appropriate.

    The photograph showing Yes ballots on the No table is taken during or after the reconciliation count. Counted ballots are NEVER laid out like that—it would be impossible to count the bundles if they are put out like that.

    This also explains the photographs of ballots coming out of the boxes in bundles—they were put in bundles for the reconciliation count.

    Excuse me, I’m just going off to beat my head against a wall 🙂

    O, Morag, you asked if you had met me at London SNP. No, if never been involved with that.

  299. Morag says:

    Alan, all of us have acknowleged that the system is vulnerable to penny-number fiddles as you point out. Most of this is individuals pulling a fast one.

    Organised, state-sponsored rigging at the macro level required to achieve a majority of 400,000 votes is impossible. Pointing out that Westminster is corrupt and would be prepared to break every rule in the book doesn’t magically give them the ability to do the impossible.

  300. Calgacus says:

    @Morag, thank you for your kind remark Morag but more importantly thank you for all the hard work that you have done for the cause. I lived in Berwickshire for a couple of years in the 70’s and it certainly wasn’t Yes territory so it must have been a hard slog for you in the Borders.

    I see QT is from Kelso tonight, should be interesting!

  301. A. Mylchreest says:

    Thank you for this clarification, I soon realised that the video ‘evidence’ was due to misunderstanding.

    However there is one other point that needs to be laid to rest, the fact that the turnout was comparatively low in Glasgow (and Dundee?) which happened to be where the most YES votes came from. The final result was arrived at by adding all the votes nationwide, so if you could predict that Glasgow would be pro-YES you could reduce the overall YES total simply by losing a pile of Glasgow votes (without even having to sort them). This would not look too suspicious as the local outcome would still be YES, but the national YES total would be reduced. So two questions :

    1. Of all the postal votes applied for, how many actually reached the count? I.e. could some have ‘accidentally’ got ‘lost’ in the post?

    2. Although the ballot papers from each polling station have to tally with the list of people who voted there, if both failed to reach the count who would know? Do we know that every single ballot box and register reached the count? Do we know that the boxes that arrived were the same ones that left the polling stations, i.e. that they weren’t switched in transit.

    So long as suitable procedures were in place to prevent these two abuses, then we have to accept the count. However we need to look for every last devious fiddle, since we know the government would use every trick known to them and that they actively develop such techniques.

  302. Morag says:

    A. Mylchreest, the areas you mention are very closely monitored and can’t be tampered with in the way you suggest. Postal vote turnout was high and postal voters were given some sort of online code that allowed them to verify their votes had arrived.

    No ballot boxes got lost. All hell would break loose if that happened. It’s unthinkable.

    Unfortunately the new voters RIC got added to the register were difficult to get out to vote. There was a Celtic match on that evening and by the time it finished it was dark and raining.

    Another thing I keep trying to point out is who is running the voting. It’s not some shadowy “they” who can covertly subvert the process. It’s run by the local councils, all of whom include some SNP councillors (some are even SNP controlled), using local people recruited for the event. Some are No voters and some are Yes voters.

    There are so many people involved and probably half of them actually voted Yes. Sinister MI5 agents wouldn’t get a look in.

  303. Bob Sinclair says:


    Can I apologise also, for being somewhat aggressive in my approach. Honestly, I’m not usually that kind of person. I think we are all just a bit jumpy at the moment and looking for anything to lash out at.

  304. DundeeDancer says:

    I feel frustrated that I cannot check to see what my vote has been registered as, therefore how can I even start to trust the system.

    In this day in age it would be possible when going to vote and being handed the ballot paper to have a unique code on the ballot paper and a detachable strip which the same code. The ballot papers could then be scanned by computer and vote preference could be stored against the unique code.

    Later on I would then be able to check the vote preference against the unique code by looking up a government website and see my preference has been registered as my wishes and I would be happy.

    The vote would still be confidential as people turn up at the polling station in a random order but the ballot papers would be dished out on a first come first served basis.

    Hopefully important votes in future will have something like this in place.

  305. big jock says:

    I will reserve judgement on the postal votes. Not convinced I am afraid. Time may tell.

  306. StevenB says:

    I don’t believe that there was any mass manipulation of votes, there may have been the odd incident but overall we have to accept the result and fight on until the goal is achieved.

    On the day of the vote the no campaign posted a leaflet through doors offering to transport pensioners & the infirm to polling station. There was a steady stream of minibuses stopping all day. This was a slick move and paid off for the no campaign.

    re- the 45 groups. I won’t be joining any of these as although I am proud to be part of the 45%, on the day it fell short what we need is a 51 club. Will making an exclusive club for the 45 encourage anyone who voted no on the day to transfer their allegiance? I’m not so sure it would.

  307. A. Mylchreest says:

    Morag @
    Thank you! Just thought those points needed clearing up.

    So at the end of the day the Weegies put their fitba before freedom. Makes you wonder what’s the point, doesn’t it?

    OTOH the polls were open all day long … och, I gie up.

  308. Alan Mackintosh says:

    Morag, yes we took our eye off the ball. We lost not through manipulation, (excepting postal vote vagaries I mentioned above and some register anomalies, but these would not amount to more than possibly some thousands) but by not understanding the depths of fear that would be unleashed against the older voters amongst us. No matter, we have learned, Onwards.

  309. Cadogan Enright says:

    I have not logged on for several days, but I am suprised at the backward looking nature of many posts.

    I did not see a single reference to the elections next May 2015 (8 months time) and the impossibility of the 53 Unionist MP’s keeping their seats with their vote split 3 ways in the face of a single Scottish YES Coalition candidate.

    Nor did I see any reference to having a referendum on full devo-max on ALL finances as a YES Coalition agreed policy going into the 2016 election – the question Scotland was denied.

    I saw one or two positive forward looking posts from people who appear to be aware that making a country independent needs a bit of serious effort and that the next step is always the most important step, until success is achieved. EG

    From Morag “Devo-max was a lie. Oil running out was a lie. Pensions disappearing was a lie. EU citizens being deported was a lie. Prices going up was a lie.
    No won on lies and false promises. That is becoming not just clear but documentable. So far, I imagine the regretful No voters will be a fairly small minority of the 200,000 we’d need to change their mind, but that will grow.
    These are the grounds Nicola needs to concentrate on and document, to justify any relatively quick re-visiting of the independence issue. I imagine she understands this a lot better than I do.”

    From Fiatdubh “Love to you all, and keep your heads up! If you asked me a week tonight before the vote, if it was a No wuld I see Independence? I probably would have been done with Scotland/politics, but nah, I’m just get started.
    And so are the
    7000 new Greens
    3000 new SSP members
    35000 SNP members ”

    I’d like to amend yesindyref’s Irish timeline as follows;

    2014 Referendum stolen with lies and threats. Scottish political activists galvanised into forward-thinking action.
    2015 Unionist MP’s wiped out in Scotland by continuing YES campaign unity candidates
    2016 Nicola Sturgeon heads Yes coalition with landslide in Scottish Parliament for full fiscal autonomy
    2017 Independent Catalonia admitted to European Union
    1919 Declaration of Scottish Independence.
    1922 Creation Scottish Republic

  310. Chic McGregor says:

    My concerns in regard to postal voting are in regard to how it differs from poll station voting.

    Most obvious I suppose is the registering of a vote before the latter part of the campaign has been completed.

    There are reasonable questions too as to whether it is more susceptible to impersonation, because the risk that a polling station staff might know either the impersonator or the person they are impersonating must be factor for any impersonator to consider in their personal risk assessment.

    Also, how is close proximity from third party partisan influences up to and at at the point of voting avoided? as it is in a controlled polling station environment.

    Obviously, postal voting and proxy voting are absolutely required in certain circumstances.

  311. Chic McGregor says:

    My concerns in regard to postal voting are in regard to how it differs from poll station voting.

    Most obvious I suppose is the registering of a vote before the latter part of the campaign has been completed.

  312. Mike says:


    It seems that the postal votes were not opened for the first time during the count at all they were opened by members of the No campaign with no authority to do so prior to the vote count which means by all electoral law the count is invalid and void.
    There was admission of postal vote tampering by no less than Ruth Davidson herself publically on TV.
    I myself doubt there was any voting fraud conducted at the actual count although I am suspicious of the fire alarm incident in Dundee but I have grave misgiving over the lack of security with the postal vote and the transportation of voting boxes across Scotland by local councillors. Couple this with the insistence of the UK Government not to conduct exit polls and you have the makings of a dodgy referendum result.

  313. Calgacus says:

    @Bob Sinclair, no need Bob, as you say we are all a wee bit frayed round the edges. I’m sure that we’ll convert that anger into the energy required to visit retribution on the unionist parties.

    I, for one will be volunteering my services to the SNP campaign as we must all unite or suffer another defeat.

  314. Doug Daniel says:


    Calgacus – you’re absolutely right, the cheating that went on was the cheating we saw with our own eyes. And that’s why it was so effective, because enough people assumed it couldn’t possibly be lies because it was happening right in front of them, and voted No.

    So now we get on with trying to reveal the magician’s trick to as many of those 55% as possible, so that next time, it’s Yes that wins.

  315. big jock says:

    Yes why no exit polls. Boxes carried by black cabs in Glasgow not secured. Lets be honest they tried every other lie in the book. Do we seriously think they wouldn’t try and skew the votes in their favour. Wake up people its the British State. Just look at how easily they turned BBC into a Westminster mouthpiece. From everybody saying that yes had definately won we have now gone to a position where we accept we were always 10% behind.

  316. Cag-does-thinking says:

    Police involved at last even the BBC say so.

    Anybody think any of this would have happened if it wasn’t for tenacious people moaning about it here on Wings?

  317. P McCarthy says:

    @Doug Daniel Thank you for the explanation, I was sure that the video of the woman moving some votes from yes to no and the one of the man writing something, then putting the pen up his sleeve where as you stated.

    I watched the count live on TV and was very alarmed to see the ballot papers being taken out in neat piles. Perhaps it would have been better if these postal votes had not been put in in such neat piles as it does look very, very suspicious. Hopefully the people in charge will think on this for future votes.

    The only thing that still is very strange to me, is why on earth would anyone put uncounted votes on a table that clearly had a big NO poster on it? Aren’t the votes not directly dumped on the counting tables and then when they are sorted into neat piles taken to the respective tables?

    You were not really clear on this point, so would love some feedback as to this point. Are you saying that once the piles of 100 votes are made up they are then all put on a NO (or a Yes) table before they are sorted? Does not make sense to me!

    I think that making it clear how the process is done, is a great way to stop the conspiracy theories. I had been wondering if the votes were double counted, as it was not mentioned to the general public. Perhaps the media should have taken us through the whole counting process to put people’s minds at ease. Also there should have been a number for the public to call if they saw anything untowards taking place.

    Seeing the Yes votes clearly on a NO table has been very alarming not just to the people of Scotland but to people all around the world. To avoid such panic again, it would be advisable not to have such a situation where uncounted votes would ever end up on a table that had either a Yes or No on it. Personally I think whoever was responsible for that taking place should be sacked or even fined. Do you know if this was the policy in just one counting room or in all of them?

  318. john says:

    Sorry, but if postal votes were placed in box ready to be transported to the count centre then did they gently levitate the boxes there cos 20seconds in any vehicle I know (even moving box by hand) and any neat stack would no longer be a neat stack…

    The only way stack would still be neat is if it was placed there at counting centre shortly before box opened.

  319. big jock says:

    What about the government leak to BBC about RBS as well. Trust this is still being investigated.Salmond mentioned he still expected this to be carried out.

  320. liz says:

    @LizM – sorry I’m not sure if you were talking to me or lizg – but no I’m not from Abronhill but east ren – smurf country

  321. liz says:

    I don’t even bother reading the we wuz robbed lot anymore.

    I did ask the Rev a couple of days ago to put all of that on to a new thread but he’s obviously and quite rightly now taking a well earned break.

    I an mot accusing anyone but I believe we have been taken over by the likes of those that enjoy a good rammy with eg OBE wan from the herald.

    Give up Morag and Doug – some folk don’t, wont and can’ listen to reason.

    They are trying to drive us insane by their repitition, it’s like being on twitter, sometimes you have to pull out even though you feel you must answer.

    Starve them of attention and they may go somewhere elsewhere to discuss their theories.

    As I’ve said before I am trying o be reasonable but you will prove NOTHING, JFK – 50 years down the line – NOTHING.

    And that is my last word on this subject

  322. Pete says:

    Seems to me that there are a lot of people unwilling to say what they think. Why, because there seems to be a lot of ridicule of what are and always will be dodgy undertakings. There is no escape from one simple fact. The ballot boxes were transported unsecurely. That, for me, is nothing short of a sackable offence. Given the magnitude of the event, and that it meant possible collapse of the UK, its not a great leap to say the vote was fixed, and i for one certainly dont think it would take a lot of people to do it. A member of my family was a police officer on duty, warned about “Unruly Mobs” of yes supporters! They were advised by police scotland that the ballot boxes on the night would be getting transported by secure vans from polling stations to counting stations. When the enquiry was made about them being transported personally by single individual polling agents, in the boot of their cars, the story had changed and they were no longer being transported securely. Its not hard to imagine a quick pit stop enroute to swap boxes. Even if it never happened, the doubt is always there, and the question as to why, given so many police officers in attendance, were they not transported securely! Also, Ask around. I know personally, out of a large number of friends and colleagues, 3 people that were hell bent on a no. the rest were on a yes, 2 undecided but leaning yes. Im willing to bet that will be replicated throughout scotland. To turn a blind eye to the lack of security at such a crucial stage is absolutely abhorrent

  323. Morag says:

    I need to stop reading this thread. If I see one more unfamiliar poster appearing and repeating all the delusional paranoid rubbish that Doug and I and the other counting agents have so painstakingly refuted, I’ll probably burst a blood vessel.

  324. Rev. Stuart Campbell says:

    “What are the reasons for not having confidence in the postal vote?”

  325. MarkAustin says:

    P McCarthy says:

    The only thing that still is very strange to me, is why on earth would anyone put uncounted votes on a table that clearly had a big NO poster on it? Aren’t the votes not directly dumped on the counting tables and then when they are sorted into neat piles taken to the respective tables?

    This one has been done to death by me, Morag, Doug and many others. The photograph shows the ballots during the RECONCILIATION count, BEFORE the actual counting starts.

    There are more boxes than counters, so a box is opened, reconciled, the ballots, neatly bundled in 100s, put aside until the ACTUAL count starts.

    When this happens the ballots are mixed up—there’s a phobia about not letting people count areas—and put back into the boxes for storage until they are counted. When they are separated into bundles of 100 Yesses or Nos, they are neatly stacked on the relevant table in such a way that the bundles can all be seen and counted.

  326. AshleyKane says:

    There was a 400,000 vote spread between the Yes & No sides but only 200,000 votes out of the 3.6 million cast need to be tampered with to secure a NO victory to achieve a 10 pt spread. This is 5% of the total ballots

    Not very hard to do especially with rampant postal fraud.

    Also, just for fun, take a look at this London Financial Analyst who “predicted” the exact vote make up hours prior to the polls even opening. Look at the time stamp! The pound sterling was rebounding ON polling day – not day after as one would assume given uncertainty of the event….unless there *was* certainty! insider info from londons financial sector?

  327. John Gallagher says:

    I would like to know if the counting of the postal votes did not start until 10pm how did ruth davidson admit live on t.v. to having information on these ballot papers before 10pm. pertaining as to how the count was going???

  328. @ Rev. Stuart Campbell
    FFS Morag has `Factual Knowledge`that it does not/cannot happen , her and her gang of believers esp Bob Sinclair will be beelin at you for stirring thing up.
    Morag says it was the Americans and the Russians whats causin all this Conspiracy Pish ,and yet we are the tinfoil hat wearers.
    I quoted from the Judge in your referenced article about the chance of ` Industrial scale Fraud `in Postal Voting.
    All I wanted to know was who had access to the Postal Vote ballot papers after they were returned .
    And where were they kept ( some for nearly 3 weeks) before Black Thursday.
    I think there is a bit of cognitive dissonance in some of the deniers ,they have such faith in the system that there minds cannot see corruption.

    Anyway you should be on your weeks holiday for 5 days over the weekend see you Monday morning .
    PS If i get into trouble from `Factual Knowledge` Morag or` all seeing` Douglas Daniel I am going to blame @Calgacus.LOL

  329. Will Podmore says:

    As I forecast weeks ago, some will claim that ‘we was robbed’, by rigging, or by the media or by little green men … Face it, two million people did not buy your claims. If this was a genuine national liberation struggle,you would have won, but you didn’t, so it wasn’t.

  330. @ Will Podmore
    For once in your adult life could you answer this question truthfully no fingers crossed behind your back hand on heart (if trouble finding one put hand on wallet).

    Was the British media ,television,paper,radio controlled and directed by the No side.
    Yes or No

  331. Bob Sinclair says:

    Scot Finlayson,
    Cognitive Dissonance – No,
    An aversion to people talking Sh**e – Yes.

  332. Big Jock says:

    Let the judicial review go ahead and see what evidence comes to light. Not sure why certain people are so confident in the establishment or of their own accounts of what went on. Surely if there is doubt and incompetence then this has to be brought to light. Otherwise we are stuck with a shit voting system.I don’t honestly know the truth due to the claim and counter claim. But I would like to know what happened and what should have happened.

  333. Chic McGregor says:

    With biometric fingerprint capability on tablets, it can only be a matter of a short while before electronic voting, safer than the present is introduced.

    Eg vote with your actual fingerprint in the box. No names need ever be displayed.

    Still open to forms of fraud e.g. forcing someone to vote and remain silent about the coercion. Even ‘Mission impossible’ type stuff involving latex copies might be used??

    But the key thing is that the voter can easily view his/her vote in the database with no names ever being displayed. The response could even be audible to the inquiring voter with a headset so how they voted doesn’t even appear on the screen.

  334. Chic McGregor says:

    The American journalist Will McLeod’s opinion on the BBC coverage can be heard here from about 29:40 and for the next 5 mins or so.

  335. V says:

    As John said, what about the Police investigation into Ruth Davidsons claim to have had encouraging signs from postal ballots? Votes do not have to get to counting house before being interfered with. Yes we may get labeled as sore loses. …but you would have to be a complete idiot if you trust UK government to keep everything above board. MI5 does exist…they are not a charity wing of UK government!

  336. Nana Smith says:

    @Chic McGregor

    Loved this podcast. Thank you for posting.

  337. David Dickson says:

    What this process highlights to me is the need for electoral reform. I’m not suggesting that anything untoward happened but I’m not dismissing it out of hand either. The British establishment has an enormous vested interest in the result and a track history full of subterfuge. The current process relies mostly on trust. Ballot boxes being transferred to counting stations by single drivers with no police escort. Electoral Commission workers being told not to put security tags on ballot boxes, blank ballot papers being reported etc. We need to demand better otherwise the next referendum process could be fought in the same way and lost in similar circumstances. We should include this in any discussions for the future.

  338. John Edwards says:

    “After this, the ballot papers were removed from their ‘A’ envelopes, kept face down so no one could see the vote”

    Obviously a lie hence below so how can we believe anything else that’s said here ?? – why do you think so many do believe it was fixed when constantly lies are being told and proven wrong.

  339. Simon kyrollos says:

    What you are conveniently forgetting that the votes were suppose to have been franked as by the home office guide lines and they were also suppose to have a barcode on the back but there has been thousands of reports of some voting card being completely blank and others with the relative information on the back why is there a difference in the votes also the numbers on the ballot boxes not being noted also reports of ballet boxes being transported in people’s own cars do you honestly think if they were going to rig the vote they would do it in the counting stage of coarse not with the ballet box numbers not being noted the boxes could have been switched for other prepapered boxes before the count was made just like Cameron said “I’ll do everything to make sure Scotland stays in the United kingdom” that includes rigging the vote so he even admitted it on national television to think other wise is to be delusional

  340. Lana says:

    Hi everyone, I think this is a great article, and I had no doubt that the whole process was not legitimate. I even defended just about every point in here in conversations etc. BUT I was unaware that the ballot paper was supposed to have anything on the reverse ( barcode, serial number..) my paper was blank, and others have told me that there’s were also blank. I do not want to stir anything or cause trouble, it’s just I am now genuinely concerned that mine and others ballots were not official. If I am mistaken I will have no problem apologizing but I will be taking this to the electoral commission. If anyone has any advice that would be great. I voted no.

  341. yesindyref2 says:

    Look for the section: “Issue and opening of postal votes”.

  342. I was at the count in midlothian lasswade. And i had a row with one of the counters ,she refused to let me see the x s and called her supervisor, she was really shaken up by my request and i could not for the life of me understand why. Her supervisor backed her up and even when i called owen thomson over SNP he said just let it go. Having nightmares about it. I should have called the adjudicator over. All other requests to allow us to see the x s revealed a number of yes votes on no piles. Human error probably but why so beligerent to my request im still very suspicious that i caught her cheeating.

  343. Alan Crerar says:

    You’re not looking far enough back. I own a flat in Glasgow bought for my daughters to go to Uni, but I live in Stirling. Back at the time of the Euro-elections, completely without prompting, Glasgow Council sent me a voting card, when I was already registered in Stirling. I didn’t use it, but this time around could easily have had a second vote in the referendum. How many others could have voting cards issued multiple times? I still have my Euro-vote card. Should this go to the electoral commission as evidence of institutional irregularities in the voting system?

  344. Morag says:

    Lana, I was a counting agent in Kelso and as far as I’m aware, all the papers there (the whole of the Borders) had blank backs. My own paper, I folded after marking as instructed, then looked at it in my hand and opened it again just to savour the sight of the wee cross in the Yes box. There was nothing on the back that I noticed.

    I’ve been at counts before, and nobody has ever said anything about marks on the back. This time we were trained and advised by experienced SNP officebearers and councillors, and nothing was said about marks on the back of the papers.

    It seems that the councils printed their own ballot papers and there were slight differences in layout. Some had bar codes on the back and others hadn’t. If this was in some way improper, I kind of think someone might have mentioned it.

  345. Morag says:

    Barbara, I can’t understand why they wouldn’t let you see a ballot paper. That was very high-handed. Maybe one person was trying it on, who knows. It would have been impossible to rig the count by that sort of private enterprise though – too many votes would have needed to have been misfiled.

    Didn’t the tellers in your count check each others’ bundles? Ours did – mainly to ensure there were 25 in each bundle, but you could usually see the crosses while they were doing that.

    I watched the counting for a while, then wandered away because everyone was doing their job very well and there were clearly enough checks and balances to prevent anything more than the odd one or two papers to be wrongly allocated.

    One of our officials remarked at the end of the night, “I know these people. Most of them voted Yes. I’m gutted for them having to count all these No votes.”

    Puts a slightly different perspective on it.

  346. Croompenstein says:

    @Barbara – Don’t be shaken as there is very little we can do in the face of the might of the British Establishment. Their tentacles reach in to the heart of all our lives, it doesn’t have to be a shady guy with a long coat who threatens us it is our own folk. We cannot reverse the result and sadly I believe we cannot win against this establishment in a free democratic vote

  347. Morag says:

    Oh yes we can. We just need to get enough votes.

    There are weaknesses in the system that allow low-level fiddling. This is much more likely to affect the result of a first-past-the-post seat than a country-wide election.

    At the macro scale, the process is remarkably fair, honest and transparent. It is literally impossible for anyone to engineer hundreds of thousands of fake or switched votes without detection.

  348. Croompenstein says:

    Can we just agree to disagree on this as never the twain shall meet and we should respect our differing views. The important thing is that we all stay strong and carry our dream of Scottish independence forward and reach out to the people who voted no on false promise and fear. I have done as much work as any other on this forum for my nations self determination and it is wrong to vilify anyone who has legitimate reason to suspect the Brits of foul play

  349. handclapping says:

    And if you think it is a crap system, just think a little further and ask yourself “Who specified it?”.

    It’s on a par with all the other ill-thought-out “happenings” in “our beloved country” like poll tax, the Iraq war parts 1, 2 and 3, Trident and foodbanks, identity cards and a paperless NHS. All gifted to you at your expenses by our “representatives” at Westminster.

    So step back and ask yourself is kicking the anti-tank bollards round that august establishment a good use of your, and everybody else that you enroll’s, time, money and effort.

  350. Surely someone has the definitive answer as to whether your ballot paper should be blank on the back or by law needs a
    distinguishing feature .
    Whether by wholesale incompetence or willful corruption the whole ballot, Postal or ballot box, reeks of sheer amateurism .
    No wonder people are questioning the results.

  351. Bunter says:

    Its so far down no-one will be reading this but here goes,
    We are 100% yes website, most of the admin are in men only clubs; we thought this was going to be a fair vote but now we know it was not, all our ballot papers backs were blank I even raised this with a supervisor at Mastrick polling station in Aberdeen who stated as far as she was aware all Aberdeen polling stations papers were blank, yet here we are police now investigating, crown office now investigating soon the EU the entire vote is or was a complete shambles and to trust it you would have to be nuts in the extreme.
    The person who was in charge panicked after day one and released a statement that it was fair?
    Now there are countless enquiries going on all over Scotland and people still say the no’s have the no’s have it well somehow that looks like only if it was rigged, all the no side was saying they won it before the count yet no exit poll was ever taken all over Scotland, why was that?
    Because it would have been miles out of the rigged poll results!
    the one that really sticks out are the snp heartlands you have to wonder at the results, fire alarms that emptied buildings but officials seen doing paperwork on TV , who were they?
    Full coverage continues on

  352. @ Bunter
    There seem to be some on this site trying to stop any discussion about the obvious mishandling of the whole ballot especially the Postal Vote , any time it is mentioned a certain poster or one of her boys/girls immediately try to stamp out the democratic discussion between very concerned citizens.
    We need to see the ballot papers and we need to see the Registers from the polling places especially Glasgow and Dundee to see if the percentages they claim voted ties up with the names crossed of on the register.
    There are far to many questions about the ease of corruption in the Postal Vote , Judge Richard Mawrey who sits in judgment on election fraud cases says Postal Voting was open to fraud on an INDUSTRIAL scale .

  353. SquareHaggis says:

    What Scot Finlayson said.

  354. Morag says:

    OK, I’m offski. Talk among yourselves. Go to the councils who printed their ballot papers in a way that doesn’t suit you and see what they say.

  355. @ Morag
    You keep saying that! and yet you keep posting ,posting ,posting .
    Do you Vow to keep out of the rigged Polling debate.

    @ everyone else
    Big crowd down at Holyrood and getting bigger talking about the Vow and the Ballot , have to say most folk think there should be a European investigation into the Electoral Commision. Strangely enough don`t trust an Investigation by our lot.
    Ruth Davidson should resign to start with.
    @ SquareHaggis
    Cheers, Have you heard from Lesley Ann recently?

  356. Andy says:

    Well, if this is the same Government who goes to War illegally and covers up legions of Child Abuse after having over 100 articles come out in a 2 week period. . .

    You’re honestly telling me they couldn’t rig a vote?

    Please. . .

    Infact, it’s clearly looking that way.

  357. Rob Scott says:

    I’ve read lots of snippets re postal vote fraud but no-one seems to have considered this basic point….

    Wouldn’t it be interesting if someone was able to compare the postal vote details against the Council Tax Register?

    If there are lots of postal votes from people who aren’t registered for Council Tax then there is something dodgy going on.

    Perhaps some SNP run councils could have a go at this, although I’m not sure what procedure they would need to attempt in order to do this, and suspect that the Electoral Commission (and of course anyone in the No camp) would be determined to prevent it.

  358. SquareHaggis says:

    Reports coming out of Cruden Bay saying blank on one side ballots there.

    Robert Peffers left a link on an earlier thread where you could go and chack the progress of your postal vote by typing in your unique identifier, anyone know if a similar link exists where people can check if their polling station vote was received/recorded?

    Any way to check or confirm your choice for a Y/N?

    Would it be possible to compile a list of polling stations where (blank on one side) ballots were issued or perhaps such a list exists already?

    The plot thickens.

    Scot, LA sadly absent of late and seriously missing her input.

  359. Cyberus Nauticus says:

    Ye were obviously hoodwinked; ye were obviously deceived; it was a yes win; only a cretin couldnae see it; ye should be disbarred from the struggle of life for not seeing it. Scum, scum.

  360. Jacqui says:

    Dear Wings of Scotland, I love your site and your posts but I can’t help thinking that saying that the vote rigging is a conspiracy theory and that everything was above board is because you believe the pathetic reasons that have been given to account for the indiscrepencies. I have just seen a video of a man in a van who was directed to go and find a carrier bag beside a bin in Glasgow. This bag was full of YES votes. I now have a few questions, I read somewhere that all ballot papers were kept for a year, why not these? How many other ‘carrier bags’ held the same thing, perhaps all over the country? How can you dispute the irrefutable amount of ‘evidence’ that points to the vote being rigged?

  361. The people of Scotland have 6 weeks from the announcement of the result of the vote to challenge the result.

    I would have hoped this web site would have been a champion of gathering information and testimony to help put in a challenge to a Judicial Review , but instead it seems to be more concerned about choosing a fricken logo and complaining about the Yes campaign .
    There were loads of posts pre the referendum about the strangely consistent polls that were going to be used as a back up to the ,what everyone thought,rigged ballot result.

    Hopefully now that a certain individual and her gang have vowed to stay out of this post people like @ Chris Darroch and many others that i wont name ,in case they are feart of madam ,can at the very least have a civil discussion without the smatarse comments.

  362. Wee Jock Elliot says:

    I doubt that there was enough rigging actually going on to affect the outcome, but things don’t always work quite the way they are meant to.

    I know on good authority that postal votes were looked at and the yes/no’s counted before they were legally allowed to be. This is independently from and prior to Ruth Davidson’s little slip.

    Just sayin’…

  363. @ Wee Jock Elliot
    How much rigging has to go on before it becomes illegal. There seem to be hundreds of people with stories of small scale fraud happening in the ballot , if you add all the stories up it stops being small scale and becomes organized large scale fraud.

  364. Bob Sinclair says:

    Scot Finlayson,
    99.999 % of the so called proof being posted on social media is just the deranged rambling of the wilfuly deluded.

    This site is not the place for that dross.

  365. Bob Sinclair says:


    I know that the security services in Britain ae noted for their incompetence at times but – seriously?
    I think they would have at the very least sprung for a box of matches.

  366. @ Bob Sinclair
    ` Why the anger Bob , where is Morag ,she gone now job done?
    Anyway this post is for discussing the ballot, only the` Wilfully Deluded` allowed.
    There is therapy for cognitive dissonance but you must seek help yourself.
    Chill out Bob, jeezo you are an angry man.

  367. The Electoral Commissions consultation report says “Electoral fraud has the potential to affect the results of elections and undermine trust in the democratic process.

    You see that bit `affect the results of elections` thats the Electoral Commission saying this not some Conspiracy nut.

    If we do not shout loudly about the corruption of the Ballot it will not get changed and the corruption will continue.

    Ruth Davidson must resign.

  368. Will Podmore says:

    The yes side lost because its analysis was flawed from the start. Scotland is not a colony. From this wrong premise flow all the cries of discrimination and victimhood. And when the majority voted to stay in Britain, the Yes side at once cried corruption, ‘we was robbed’, we were ‘stabbed in the back’ by the media – anything rather than face honestly that the majority voted No to division, no to separation, no to the everlasting cringe of ‘we’re only a colony’.

  369. @ Will
    Has John McTernan no switched you of yet.

    Do Astroturfers/glove puppets just keep posting until their masters tell them to stop.

    Or are you here to dampen down any questioning of the corrupt Postal Vote,like some others I could mention.

    Less than half of the Scottish electorate voted to stay in the union. Hardly a Mandate for no change.

  370. Paula Rose says:

    Willy Podsore not been switched off? Good grief – he won’t be staying long.

  371. Keith MacD says:

    I can’t believe that people on here are saying they know for a fact that no ballot papers were blank on the reverse. There are hundreds of people who state that theirs were, mine included. The question isn’t whether they were blank, but why were some blank? This casts doubt on a significant control which is part of the process in this country. This raises doubts in my mind. Why were they blank? If this control was missing, what else was not done according to the rules. The Electoral Commission themselves have provided Police Scotland with a letter saying that (to paraphrase)- don’t worry, even if your ballot paper was blank on the back, it would still have been counted. It is very sad to see infighting on the YES side… however it is infuriating to hear some people dismissing these allegations out of hand.

  372. Will Podmore says:

    When the Chinese people won their revolution against the Kuomintang, they did not have the media on their side. When the Cuban people won their freedom from the dictator Batista, they did not have the media on their side. When the Algerian people won their independence from France, they did not have the media on their side.
    If this was a genuine national liberation struggle, you would have won, but you didn’t, so it wasn’t. In the total vote across Scotland, the separatists lost by a wider margin than forecast: 55.3 per cent to 44.7 per cent, a loss by 11 percentage points. If that were the result in a US election, it would be seen as a landslide.
    In the rest of Britain, 81 per cent of voters do not want Scottish independence, according to a poll taken before Thursday’s vote. So of all those voters affected by the Scottish vote, there is a 79 per cent to 21 per cent majority for unity. That’s the real result — four out of five people don’t want Scotland to break away, and a solid majority of Scots agrees.
    Splitting the British working class, which is 95 per cent of the people, would benefit only the 5 per cent.
    We need class politics, not the present divisiveness, which only plays into the Coalition’s hands. In Britain, the majority should rule, not the capitalist minority represented by Westminster, Brussels and Holyrood.
    We need to unite the pro-unity sentiments of No supporters and the revolutionary sentiments of so many Yes supporters into one common struggle against capitalism. Now we have to work together to beat the real enemy. As the TUC calls, ‘Britain needs a pay rise’. Let’s work together to win more pay!
    Marx’s great call was not, ‘Workers of all countries, divide and split’.

  373. @ Will
    The Revolution, Freedom, Referendum , that you mention were all won on the back of death and destruction to countless thousands.
    All the Yes side had was hopefully impartial media to convey both sides of a democratic non violent Vote.
    We did not get an impartial media we did not get a fair ballot we need answers not purple prose and hyperbole.

    Only 46% of the Scottish electorate voted to stay in the Union
    And 20% of them were swayed at the last minute by the promise of tax raising powers by Gordon Brown and the three leaders of the British Unionist parties.

    That is what the biased media bought into and promoted .
    The media were complicit in in the lies told by the Unionist campaign.

  374. Will Podmore says:

    Scot Finlayson claims, “we did not get a fair ballot.”
    Any proof? So far, none, just those who said – before anybody had even voted – that it was a stitch-up, i.e. it was for them an article of faith, not a matter of evidence.
    ‘Only 46% of the electorate voted to stay in the Union’, true, but on an 85% turnout, 55.3% voted for unity, 44.7% for separation, a big win, by 11% of those who voted. Those who don’t vote, don’t count in the result.
    Your figure of 20% being swayed at the last minute is based on what evidence? Did you conduct your own little exit poll? No – it is based on no evidence at all. This disrespect for evidence is what doomed the whole flawed campaign for breaking up Britain.

  375. @ Will
    We are not breaking up Britain we are dissolving a contract between two nations,Scotland and England ,nothing more nothing less ,stop getting all emotional
    Britain is an island group nothing more nothing less, unless fracking goes drastically wrong Britain will never break up so stop fretting .
    20% undecided is a recognized statistic for the Scottish Referendum.

    Who do you think is going to investigate the Postal Vote corruption,police,the government, the electoral commission ,the newspapers, the radio , the television,not a chance in hell .
    We will wait and see what happens to Ruth Davidson who has been caught bang to rights and should go to jail.

  376. goldie says:

    Conspiracy theory
    Don’t disagree with adjudicator at all it’s before that the problem postal votes are supposed to be pink and have writing on back i had neither who said the votes that you counted came from said polling stations could have been swapped
    This amount if people can’t smell a rat without a stench

  377. Will Podmore says:

    Oh Scot, how silly of me I didn’t realise until you kindly pointed it out to me that Britain was a single physical entity. Britain is also our country, united by a freely agreed contract and treaty for more than 300 years. That 1.6 million people wanted to break Scotland away from the Union is tragic, lamentable. But thankfully the majority voted to keep Britain united. The separatists lost, even though some won’t accept it and cry foul.
    Clearly, all too many on this site prefer to believe that the Yes campaign won. This choice of preferring fantasies to reality is why the Yes campaign lost.

  378. @ Will
    Yes you won by the majority of those ballots that were counted .
    But i like Churchills quote.

    Now this is not the end. It is not even the beginning of the end. But it is, perhaps, the end of the beginning.
    This was a Pyrrhic victory for the Unificationists you won but you lost so much with the lies the deceptions the outright gangsterism of the Red Torries the corruption of the BBC and all the other media outlets the Vow the Blackmailing by company managers to their employees vote No or we are leaving, the breaking of purdah the constant lies about pensions ,oil,Europe,the use of sterling,the privatisation of the NHS,TTIP.

    The people of Scotland will not be so easily deceived again .
    SNP membership soon 100000 thats one hundred thousand not just voters but active members of a political party .
    The United Kingdom is an anachronism please Will let it finish and let Scotland and England start living in the 21 century as good neighbors and friends but distinct in nature.

  379. Will Podmore says:

    Scot, you are still saying that the majority were ‘deceived’ into voting as they did by “the lies the deceptions etc, etc.”
    But you could see through all this, and you tried to persuade the 2 million plus to see through it too. You failed. How come you could see through all this, and the 2 million couldn’t? Are you cleverer? Or did they just disagree with your entire analysis? The majority believe that we are one nation, not two. The majority believe that Scotland is not a colony. The majority believe that the solution to Scotland’s problems is not division on nationalist lines but unity.

  380. Nigerian Pirate says:

    @ Will Podmore

    Move along troll, nothing to see here.

  381. @ Will
    The majority of citizens who get their information outwith the corrupt MSM esp BBC, voted for an Independent Scotland.
    Do you think that is a coincidence , it was the lies and deception uncontested by the media that swayed a lot of the elderly voters who if they had been told the unbiased truth would have voted Yes in much larger numbers.
    We do not live in a Democracy we live in a Plutocracy ,we must get out before the wealthy take all control.
    Anyhoo has Ruth Davidson been charged with corruption of the Postal Ballot yet, probably not.

  382. Will Podmore says:

    The bravely pseudonymous Nigerian Pirate calls me a troll. I don’t debate with people who can’t debate but can only call names.
    Scot claims that IF the elderly had been told the truth, they would have voted Yes. One, this is speculation, not fact. Two, according to you, they were told the truth – by the Yes campaign – but they chose not to be swayed by the Yes campaign.
    Douglas Daniel disproved the paranoid notion that corruption won the vote.

  383. Great to see the author and political campaigner Naomi Wolf is coming to Scotland to highlight the corruption that happened in the Postal Vote .
    Having such a great fighter against the illegal manipulations of the Establishment/Governments on the side of those that know there was corruption in the Postal Vote but have been vilified and abused by the media/establishment/certain posters on this site,is a confirmation of the saying “The only thing necessary for the triumph of evil is for good men/women to do nothing”.
    Hopefully through Naomi doing something the triumph of evil will be halted.

  384. Will Podmore says:

    So is Ms Wolf really coming ‘to highlight the corruption’? If she is, then she has come with a closed mind, with her conclusion decided before the investigation.
    Or is she coming to conduct an investigation, and then reach a conclusion based on the evidence?
    Hopefully the latter.

  385. I have a closed mind in that I know the Establishment would have guaranteed a No vote in the Referendum by corrupting the Postal Ballot ,they would not have risked losing Scotlands resources by trusting in Democracy.

    You have a closed mind by thinking that the Establishment would/could not do such a thing.
    Naomi has taken on the American Establishment and beat them,she will do the same to the United Kingdom Establishment.

  386. Will Podmore says:

    Ok, Scot, you have admitted that you are immune to evidence, so there is no point in discussing this matter with you. My contention is not that the Establishment would/could not do such a thing, but that they did not do such a thing. Douglas Daniel showed that they did not.

  387. @ Will
    You admit that the Establishment could/would have corrupted the Postal vote but that they just did not bother.

    The Establishment needed to guarantee a No vote which even after all the media corruption the vote was in the balance.

    The only way the Establishment could guarantee a No vote was by corrupting the Postal vote.

    Without Scotlands assets the UK Establishment is facing an abyss of unpayable debt with no collateral to borrow more money to pay the interest of the nearly 2 Trillion debt.

    And your polemic is that they just left the Vote to the democratic process and cross their fingers for a No vote.

    Will, you do not read like you are a knuckle dragging buffoon you must see the logic in your side for corrupting the vote ,they could do no other.

  388. Juteman says:

    Anyone could think Will Podmore is a Britserf, or a coward, the way he only posts on old threads.
    I don’t think i’ve ever seen him get involved at the start of a thread.

  389. @ Juteman
    This post is about the Corruption of the Vote,and as a topic is not appreciated by her ladyship being commented on on other posts ,make of that what you will.
    Even though Will is a fan of the political union of the separate Kingdoms of Scotland and England which in his innocence he calls Britain,he is better of commenting here than annoying her ladyship.(mention the devil and she is sure to appear).

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