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We need to talk about Ian

Posted on September 25, 2015 by

Given that he’s the last Labour MP left in Scotland, it’s perhaps just as well that Ian Murray is a quite interesting figure, because there’s going to be a lot of attention on him in the next five years.


Unlike the over-promoted, under-skilled, Buggins’-turn knife-and-fork-operators who’ve disgraced what were previously weigh-the-vote Labour constituencies in Scotland for decades, the member for Edinburgh South has some genuinely admirable qualities. As we noted before the election, he’s earned a reputation as a hard-working local MP: holding surgeries, replying diligently to letters and speaking up in the Commons.

He’s got a sense of humour about his lonely role, he’s the only Unionist politician ever to talk to Wings on the record, and on account of running a large tent at the Bath Festival most years he’s well known to several of our good friends in the city, who all speak highly of his personal character and work ethic.

So in all seriousness, we’re not without respect for the man. Which makes it all the more painful every time he opens his mouth.

That’s because Ian Murray is someone who seems like he’d be an excellent public servant – a conscientious social worker or head of a council department or something – if only he wasn’t in a political party. Whenever he’s required to take a partisan position, which is all the time, it’s a trainwreck.

Whether Murray’s describing someone putting a couple of tiny stickers on his office as “out of control” vandalism and intimidation, babbling gibberish on TV in an attempt to defend Jim Murphy’s “biggest party forms the government” lie, making flatly untrue claims about how he voted in Parliamentary debates or telling people that he ran the entire Edinburgh Festival for seven years when he didn’t (a claim which still appears on his website), almost every public utterance he makes is an embarrassment.

By way of evidence, in an interview published on the Holyrood Magazine website today the shadow Scottish Secretary is driven by his political responsibilities into spouting some of the most arrant drivel you’ll have the misfortune to read this year.

“The SNP guaranteed the people of Scotland that ‘if you vote SNP we’ll deliver a Labour government’, and it didn’t happen. Why didn’t it happen? They won most of the seats in Scotland and it stopped us being the largest party.”

We’re not sure we remember the SNP “guaranteeing” that.

Labour, of course, lost the election by 98 seats, while there are only 59 in the whole of Scotland. And we know that Labour KNOWS being the largest party doesn’t actually mean anything anyway, because we know they had two pages of bullet points ready on election night to argue that you could still form the government if you weren’t.

It’s mindboggling that Murray is still trying to trot out the line that voting SNP let the Tories in, when an eight-year-old child’s grasp of arithmetic is sufficient to prove that it didn’t. (Indeed, we know it was Labour votes that actually gave the Tories a majority.)

It’s not just partisan, it’s stupid. Everyone knows it’s a lie. And when Holyrood’s editor Mandy Rhodes duly calls Murray on it, he digs the hole even deeper.

“[RHODES] I point out it was losing in England that stopped Labour being the largest party. Even winning every seat in Scotland wouldn’t have changed that.

[MURRAY] ‘And why did we lose in England, that’s the question I’ll pose back to you.’

‘You speak to Andrew Pakes in Milton Keynes, speak to the candidate in Southampton, speak to the guys in Plymouth, speak to the guys in Wales, anywhere you want in the country where there’s a marginal Labour seat, the biggest single issue that stopped Labour winning the General Election was the threat of Alex Salmond.'”

Leaving aside that defeated candidates are always on the lookout for someone other than themselves to blame for losing (and that Alex Salmond isn’t the leader of the SNP and was only ever going to be a backbench MP, which people in Milton Keynes could do nothing whatsoever about), we have actual scientific evidence on it.

The British Election Study is a very large and widely-respected academic survey which looked in enormous depth at voting patterns in the election and concluded “we don’t find there is a significant or substantial effect of the threat of the SNP forming a coalition government with the Labour Party”, a view that’s shared by the independent blog Number Cruncher Politics.


Murray goes on to blithely repeat the bizarre claim that Kezia Dugdale – Jim Murphy’s deputy and the actual Scottish Labour leader in Holyrood since last December – somehow represents a “fresh start” from the regime which led the branch office to the most catastrophic defeat in its lifetime, before asserting the Unionist line du jour, namely that Scotland is now a “one-party state”.

“Nobody wants a one-party state, and nobody wants a one-party state with a government that is trying to be everything and do everything for anyone when there’s big issues out there.”

That’s a fairly bewildering semantic labyrinth of a sentence – surely you DO want a government that’s trying to do everything for its people when there are big issues at stake? – but it refers to a ludicrous belief anyway.

As recently as just 14 years ago, Scotland was run by a Labour-led administration at Holyrood and 80% of Scottish MPs were in a huge majority Labour government at Westminster, with most of the population also under Labour-controlled local councils.

If you’re looking for a one-party state, that’s a lot closer to one than the SNP being in charge at Holyrood, but with their budget set by the Conservatives in the UK parliament and sole command of just two of Scotland’s 32 councils.

Murray then tries another recently-coined Labour meme:

“[RHODES] I put it to Murray that the SNP has managed to combine being a party of protest while still being in government very successfully.

[MURRAY] ‘That’s what they have got away with for too long. Let’s take a syringe into Scottish politics and suck out everything to do with the constitution. Going into the 2016 election the SNP would be in trouble.'”

It’s unsurprising that Labour desperately WANT this to be true, but the evidence just doesn’t back it up. A poll earlier this month found just 21% of Scottish voters unhappy with the Scottish Government’s handling of education, 23% unhappy with its management of health and 37% unhappy with the state of policing (and that despite a months-long stream of negative press stories on the subject).

But more to the point, even when people aren’t necessarily happy with how various areas that are already devolved (and therefore nothing to do with the constitution) are being dealt with, they don’t think Labour is the solution:


But gripped by the delusion, Murray won’t be told:

“Therein lies the difficulty. If you look at it on a very crude and basic level, the SNP can guarantee 40-45 per cent of the electorate because of issues surrounding the constitution and people want another referendum.”

But people aren’t voting for the SNP because they want another referendum (although of course many do). They’re voting for the SNP because they’re the only party in Scotland that’s seen as remotely competent. Labour sticking their fingers in their ears and simply bellowing “SNP BAD!”, as if they’re a bunch of racist tourists and voters are Ibizan waiters who’ll only understand if you shout something loud and slowly enough, isn’t going to solve their troubles.

Mandy Rhodes doggedly continues her attempts at imparting enlightenment:

“[RHODES] I ask Murray if the party has been using Tory rhetoric. For example, before the election, Rachel Reeves said Labour was not the party of people out of work. That, to many people, suggested a shift to the right. He does not agree:

‘Well, that is just a line. No one is the party of people that are out of work. The opposite of that would be the Labour Party saying, ‘we are the party of people who are out of work’. That’s ludicrous.'”

But months on from Reeves’ initial comments, the message still hasn’t penetrated. To a supposedly socialist politician, the idea that the Labour Party might be proud to be seen to look after the poorest and most vulnerable in society is still “ludicrous”.

(Murray then blusters on about helping people into work, seemingly completely unaware of the callous contempt implied by his angry dismissal of the idea that Labour might defend people who need help and who are being brutally attacked by a vicious ideological Tory government. Unavoidably, his words suggest that there are enough jobs for everyone and that therefore everyone who’s unemployed is somehow responsible for it themselves.)

We want to like Ian Murray. Honestly we do. We’re sure his heart’s basically in the right place. But the only way it’s ever going to happen is if he shuts up, for his own good as much as anything else, and concentrates on working for his constituents, which he appears to be good at, rather than making clodhoppingly stupid public pronouncements on behalf of the sinking ship of a party he finds himself chained to.

Maybe he’s known that all along, and he was hoping to be disowned when he made some crass and rather ageist comments about Jeremy Corbyn at the end of July:


But if so it didn’t work, and Murray remains in the shadow Cabinet, bound by the party whip into a public-speaking role for which he’s desperately ill-suited. We’d advise readers to buckle in for a lot more stupid between now and 2020, and an awful lot of miserable poll ratings for Scottish Labour.

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  1. 25 09 15 13:43

    We need to talk about Ian | Speymouth

  2. 25 09 15 15:05

    We need to talk about Ian | Politics Scotland |...

219 to “We need to talk about Ian”

  1. ClanDonald says:

    The red Tory Brit Nat, Union jack waving unionists all seem to have the Fabians in common. New Labour should really be called The Fabian Party.

  2. Peter Sneddon says:

    They only speak to a percentage of folk deemed by them to be so utterly thick that they believe their shite, We are ruled by a coalition of bastards and suggestible fools.

  3. Fiona says:

    You can’t entirely blame him, any more than Johann Lamont. Anyone with a modicum of brain and/or integrity finds it difficult to promote positions which are indefensible and with which they disagree. This obvious truth accounts for the lamentable state of both politics and business: only bull shitters can behave well in those circumstances, and they are the ones overwhelmingly appointed to imp positions. Murray is only exposed cos he is a tigger – ie “I’m the only one”

  4. donald anderson says:

    If there was only one SNP member, would they be on telyl and the press much, if at all?

  5. Macart says:

    Yeah, his heart might be in the right place, but some of his other organs clearly have issues.

  6. Fiona says:

    @ donald anderson

    It would depend if they were any good or not. If they were as useless as Murray they would never be off…

  7. Chitterinlicht says:

    Its hard to be convincing and believable when you know your wrong.

  8. Andrew McLean says:

    I take no joy from Mr Murray’s misfortune, but the problem with the Scottish branch office of Labour is the lack of back up, if only he had someone to guide him, and nothing demonstrates that more, apart from his inane rambling, is than ridiculous jacket, was he attending an orange walk?

  9. jimnarlene says:

    He may well be, a good constituent MP and a nice bloke but, he has been catapulted far beyond his ability.

  10. HandandShrimp says:

    I am sure Ian does have good qualities but the times I have seen him speak on TV he has appeared almost permanently angry and defensive. So angry and defensive that he talks pish. (I also can’t get the Terry Scott image out of my head or Mr Moodies “I’ve still got a job” catch phrase)

    I think the SNP are hugely fortunate that the utterly inept and unpopular Mundell is Scottish secretary, the Lib Dems have Alastair (nuff said) and a disconsolate and angry Mr Murray as Shadow Scottish Secretary. All three ply the SNPbad shtick without saying a single attractive thing about their own parties.

    To win you must have a good battle plan but having useless opponents helps enormously.

  11. Sunniva says:

    To his credit, he has at least stuck to his guns over Trident. He just thinks constitutional issues are irrelevant. Which they might well be (from a socialist perspective) except the Labour Party are incapable of delivering socialism.

  12. Chris Baxter says:


    “Anyone with a modicum of brain and/or integrity finds it difficult to promote positions which are indefensible and with which they disagree.”

    Then stop doing it.

    Corbyn’s another one. Here’s a guy who has rebelled against his party hundreds of times; who served for Labour for the entire duration of Tony Blair and Gordon Brown, despite clearly (at least in theory) being at odds with them. Which begs the question: why didn’t he shift party, or become Independent, rather than serve a bunch of warmongering Red Tories?

  13. Free Scotland says:

    Ian Murray has all the subtlety of a bandaged sledgehammer.

  14. Sunniva says:

    What you said, Chris Baxter. Corbyn isn’t a leader but a dissenter. He’s never going to reform the Labour Party. Too content.

  15. Muscleguy says:

    And there you have an exemplar of why I have never joined a political party despite being ‘political’ since my teens. I’ve toyed with the idea a number of times but I hold my principles and a scientific/academic regard for demonstrable truth simply too highly.

    I expect like Craig Murray if I had joined the SNP and put myself forward as a prospective candidate for something I would have fallen flat for an unwillingness to bend solely in the interests of the Party.

    As a former Labour supporter I can only look at Ian Murray and think I have taken the right decisions on this matter.

    And before anyone takes me to task, yes I campaigned with RIC, but one of the benefits of RIC is nobody tells you what you have to say or must not say. I got on very well with genuine undecided voters because I was open and honest and met them half way. Polemics’r’not’us.

  16. Murray McCallum says:

    Wonder if Ian Murray will actually turn up to speak + vote against Trident renewal in the HoC? He hasn’t before.

    Maybe he was too busy running the Edinburgh festival?

  17. Andy Borland says:

    Politicians as smugly self-assured in their pronouncements being gospel like Ian Murray are legion.
    Unfortunately for Murray, there is no substance behind his smug bravado.

  18. Valerie says:

    Rabid anger and indignation often makes one incoherent, Ian.

    I’m bloody sick of this one party state shite, but my response is simple. We never heard this phrase uttered when Labour spent 40 years in charge of Scotland, ripping the piss.

    Wish they would just lie down and die with some dignity. Murray’s sarcastic comment about Jezza, reminds us of just how thick they are.

  19. One_Scot says:

    Whether or not he may or may not be too bad a person, the facts are indisputable.

    The man is clearly a buffoon.

  20. Another Union Dividend says:


    Murray has never voted against Trident … merely abstained.

    He is a master of self publicity and a walking example of how its better to be lucky than good.

    Became Labour candidate in 2007 when Nigel Griffiths stepped down in disgrace.

    Got in by narrow majority when Lib Dem favourite got over confident…. “Winning here” etc.

    He now rents his office from said disgraced Nigel Griffiths at £11,000 a year.

    Got huge local publicity when at the behest / suggestion of Lord Foulkes he belatedly jumped onto the Foundation of Hearts football supporters group bandwagon as the figurehead spokesperson.

    Only held onto his seat in 2011 after conducting a disgraceful personal campaign against his SNP opponent over three year old tweets taken out of context. Articles in Daily Mail, co-ordinated letter writing campaign by local Labour members and vicious local newsletters.

    He is often given a free reign by BBC etc and needs to be challenged more if SNP MPs ever get a chance to respond.

  21. Onwards says:

    Pretty ironic that he ridicules the thought of a pensioner in charge of Labour, given the circumstances of his election win.

  22. Lochside says:

    Ian Murray is a proven liar, who has continued to repeat the same lies over and over. Being anti-Trident in a party that is never going to get rid of it, makes him a tokenistic posturing pseud.

    Anyway, any Scot that wears a suit like that is beyond redemption.

  23. Sinky says:

    Ian Murray is also sleekit and manipulative in the true Labour councillor tradition whereas local SNP representatives are (naively at times) open and transparent when dealing with all party local issues.

  24. stonefree says:

    Sorry but the article shows too much respect to Murray,If Murray lies to the public, then in turn he is showing contempt to his constituents
    His arrogance shows with the comments about Corbyn, that’s his boss,Like it or lump it ,He obviously lumps it,
    The fact that Corbyn was fairly elected leader,hasn’t even crossed his mind………He’s that thick!!!

  25. Jamie Arriere says:

    They said I had to go to Rehab, I say….is that a one-party state too? ????

  26. gordoz says:

    Rev > “But gripped by the delusion, Murray won’t be told”

    Murray > “Therein lies the difficulty” (its more than a difficulty Ian)

    Substitute Labour for Murray and you have the quagmire Labour are in even with a the bias of MSM supporting them.

    Labour think that distorting stories and opinion to represent truths and repeating them in verbose fashion means they are right, but it just doesn’t cut it anymore with the public.

    People can check what they say and how they get their message across via the BBC (Bradford, Smith, Campbell etc) it usually is a barrage of ‘noise’ & assertion with little substance.

    People remember just how little Labour achieved in Scotland when in power for fear of going against the Westminster Labour line.

    It worked on the elderly at the Ref but its clearly ‘run out of steam’ as a tactic as pointed out by Stu’s graphic.

    Fingers in ears – LABOURS NOT LISTENING !!!!!

    He might well be a good person in some aspects of life, but his politics where Scotland is concerned appear to be going against the grain of public, (if not media), opinion as a whole.
    (Just look at the election results Ian)

  27. Jamie Arriere says:

    They said I had to go to Rehab, I say….Aye go on, book me in. Give me the works. I’ve got to lose this anger ????

  28. Dr Jim says:

    He lies with competent and complete conviction in the full and certain knowledge he will only be contradicted later, but by then his Shite will have filled the airwaves thus succeeding with Labour party policy to inform the hard of understanding and all who sail in her

    God bless her Maj

    Would you go out in a jacket like that, I mean would you (Ever)

  29. Jamie Arriere says:

    They said I had to go to Rehab, I say….Piss off, you can’t do everything for anyone ????

  30. Jamie Arriere says:

    They said I had to go to Rehab, I say….is that covered by expenses?

  31. heedtracker says:

    Last of the wee low flyers, Jeremy Paxman says they were called in the Commons. Can BBC Scotland news attack propaganda like yesterday’s display, really get them back in? They’re trying to stop SNP Holyrood vote increase in May but we need to talk about Pacific Quay.

  32. Sassenach says:

    This site sometimes feels like the only thing that keeps me sane!

    Often feel “If only I could make everyone in Scotland read the articles” – how easy another referendum would be won.

    Keep up the good work.

  33. Jamie Arriere says:

    Damn it, all those question marks are meant to be musical notes.

    While I’m here :

    They said I had to go to Rehab, I say….only if I can bring my chef’s hat, frying pan and big syringe

    *musical notes*

  34. Jim Thomson says:

    @Chris Baxter 1:35pm

    Which begs the question: why didn’t he shift party, or become Independent, rather than serve a bunch of warmongering Red Tories?

    It’s pretty simple:

    a) the “dissenters” wouldn’t have anyone telling them what to think
    b) they’d be without the swollen coffers of contributions from supporting organisations
    c) they’d have no defined office space at W/M
    d) they’d be short of the bus-loads of “helpers” shipped in from places like … let me think … Liverpool

    and I’m sure the list could be expanded well beyond the end of the alphabet.

  35. Another Union Dividend says:

    Murray’s stable mate for Edinburgh Southern at next year’s Holyrood elections is a proper true blue Tory.

    Facts about Daniel Johnson’s private schooling, Stewarts Melville fees £10,548 per annum, or being handed over some of his rich father’s businesses or his previous stint working in London for disgraced MP Nigel Griffiths is not mentioned on his web site or in his initial newsletter published by one Duncan Hothersall.

    But is portrayed as a successful small business person with no previous political background despite appearing on TV during referendum on behalf of the No Scotland campaign.

    Confirmation of selection and background details confirmed here.

  36. Finlay says:

    @Macart 13:23

    “Yeah, his heart might be in the right place, but some of his other organs clearly have issues.”

    Good one! I think one of my own organs may have leaked a little reading that.

    I’ll get my co-… trousers…

  37. chris kilby says:

    That’s Pamela Nash MP, isn’t it? Sorry, Pamela Nash. Where is she now? A question we used to ask regularly when she was the (alleged) MP for Airdrie & Shotts.

    Maybe MP stands for “Missing Person…”

  38. Louis.b.argyll says:

    Anyone who wears a Union flag blazer…
    Is by definition..

    A British Nationalist, in most people’s eyes.

    And for me..

    …therefore a fud.

  39. Davy says:

    How can anyone have any respect for Murray after watching him lie his earse aff about voting against the tory welfare bill on TV.

    Just a little OT, what’s that headline in todays P&J about, where the fuck do they come out with a 80% NO vote from ???

    PS, I do not buy that tory paper I just saw it in the supermarket.

    PPS. No pigs were hurt or abused in the making of this comment.

  40. Iain More says:


    I note that the P&J is at it again but then it no longer comes into the house and I can say that of the 50 houses on my street the circulation of the rag has gone from 40 plus to less than 10 in the last 5 years.

    Equally insidious if not worse is the Scottish Provincial Press which includes titles such as the Northern Scot and Inversneckie Courier. The Northern Scot which claims to be neutral can barely hide its poisonous Brit Nationalism and Tory leanings. It is a minor miracle that the SNP and Greens get any votes at all far less any seats ever.

    I don’t know about the political content of the other titles covered by the so called Scottish Provincial Press but I am guessing they aren’t SNP or Green or Left Wing friendly or even friendly towards Scots Indy.

  41. Iain More says:

    OT but related to my earlier post on Scottish Provincial Press,

    There is something is something rotten in the Glens Hamlet

  42. Anton Rogan says:

    How did he get to play for Hibs AND Rangers?

  43. kininvie says:

    Of course the problem lies not with Mr Murray, but with the ‘lines to take’ backroom boys. The Labour party (and Better Together before it) have this wonderful ability to think that bullshit is still the best way to convince voters.

    All political parties have problems with keeping their MPs on message, but it does help if that message bears some relation to the truth.

    Perhaps Mr Murray’s problem is that he doesn’t have the cojones to tell the spin doctors ‘I’m not saying that, and if you don’t come up with something better, I’ll say what I really think.’

  44. Luigi says:

    Since when did the main duty of the Shadow Scottish Secretary consist of shadowing the SNP? That’s all he seems to be doing. How many times did he mention the tories?

    The Shadow Scottish National Party Secretary?

  45. Charles Wood says:

    What about liam byrne B B C yesterday, labour needs to find its English identity

  46. HandandShrimp says:


    I see that James Kelly has tracked down the P&J poll. It was a telephone poll conducted by a local bridal wear company….no, I don’t understand either. Presumably real polling companies cost too much or they didn’t like the results and publishing the methodology malarky.

  47. Sinky says:

    Seems to be a co-ordinated promote Kezia campaign by Labour. As Dan Jarvis, an MP I believe, has an opinion piece in the Scotsman along with the gushing paeans to her outstanding abilities from the usual Labour letter writers.

    Usual hyperbole from shadow secretary of state for North Britain, when Ian Murray claimed that 1% of UK population voted in the Labour leadership contest.

    Police Scotland and the Scottish Fire and Rescue Service don’t have the ability to recover VAT as other emergency services across the UK and a level playing field for Scotland would free up an additional £33 million to invest in frontline services.

    Yet Ian Murray failed to support the SNP motion at Westminster on 3rd June to recover this money although Jeremy Corbyn did so.

    Unions are upset at the UK government’s proposed Trade Union legislation and employment law is devolved to Northern Ireland.

    But Labour blocked it for Scotland in the Smith Commission and worse still Ian Murray voted against the SNP amendment to the Scotland Bill that would have devolved employment law.

  48. peekay says:

    Folk no longer have a reason to vote ‘for’ Labour, I’d bet the majority of their votes now are just anti-SNP ones from the loyalists

  49. heedtracker says:

    Back room boys like rancid the Graun’s 10 | Gordon Brown Lab speech top 10 today-

    “Manchester, 2008

    Beset by the worst financial meltdown since the 1930s, dreadful poll ratings and a plot among Labour MPs to oust him from No 10, Brown turned the crisis into an opportunity to save his besieged premiership. He stressed that serious times needed someone with serious experience at the helm:in other words, himself. “I’m all in favour of apprenticeships. But this is no time for a novice.” It was a clever barb directed at those after his job. His spinners had pre-alerted the broadcasters. So when he delivered the line, the TV shots cut away to David Miliband, the foreign secretary and chief pretender, who was forced to grit his teeth and join the laughter.”

    Angry Ian’s the last of the Brown legacy but it’s odd that hard core red Tory Guardian leaves out Brown’s Union saving vote NO or else rage speech, what got BBC blanket broadcast round the clock 18 Sept 2014. Did he save their union or not? SLab wiped out in Scotland, lost badly in England and all because of one man.

    Lie with pigs, oops

  50. Iain More says:

    OT Again

    Some additional info on the so called Scottish Provincial Press

  51. Iain More says:

    Scottish Provincial Press search for all its owners goes on but it unearthed this character

  52. Luigi says:

    Sinky says:

    25 September, 2015 at 3:14 pm

    Seems to be a co-ordinated promote Kezia campaign by Labour.

    That’ll be a co-ordinated promote Kezia campaign by BBC Labour, then?

  53. Tinto Chiel says:

    Wouldn’t it be great if Mr Angry Murray actually read The Rev’s demolition job of his political behaviour, along with some of the posts here today, e.g Another Union Dividend’s?

    The trouble is, none of this kind of politician seems to think lying is wrong, and his position on Trident is not honest. I actually think most of his purple-faced bluster is caused by the fact that he knows, deep down, what he spouts is contradictory nonsense, so he becomes extremely defensive. If so, his condition will only get worse.

    How any Scottish “socialist” with any knowledge of history can wear THAT waistcoat, I have no idea. Is it just to placate an element at Gorgie? A dodgy strategy, I would have thought. I know a good few Yesser Hearts fans. Or is it to reassure the blue-rinse Waitrose brigade in Morningside?

    A Murray Psychological Meltdown is forecast.

  54. David Stevenson says:

    Were the lies told about the SNP candidate in Ian Murray’s constituency enough to ensure a Labour victory ? Did Ian Murray spread these lies himself or was that done entirely by others ?

  55. Gary45% says:

    Ian Murray.
    I doesn’t matter how many times you polish a turd, at the end of the day it’s still a turd.(we all know how he won his seat)
    Cool jacket, your parents must be really proud?!?!
    Labour, RIM( rest in misery)

  56. Thepnr says:

    “The SNP managed to say to the Scottish people that if you vote SNP, we’ll deliver a Labour government and, of course, that’s not happened,”

    he said exactly the same sentence in an interview with the Guardian back on 4th June.

    Another interesting quote from that article:

    The challenge to the SNP will be “whether or not they decide to attack the Conservative government or whether they continue just attacking the Labour party,” says Murray. “They’ll have to decide where their loyalties lie in that sense.”

    Since when, he has not stopped attacking the SNP and failed to vote against Tory polices in the HoC. Hypocrite.

  57. Clootie says:

    It is unfortunate that a man capable of gaining local respect for his efforts (I do have my doubts on this given his public image)is willing to abandon all integrity to push lie after lie.

    He represents the dark side of Labour who put party BEFORE their own nation and people.

  58. Lollysmum says:

    Email from Liberty sent out today. Text is as follows:

    “…if you weaken human rights protections – and this is contrary to how things are sometimes portrayed – you’re not striking a blow at judges in Strasbourg, lawyers in London or politicians in Scotland. You’re striking instead at the poor, the vulnerable, and the dispossessed”

    So said the First Minister of Scotland to an audience in a community centre in Govan, Glasgow, earlier this week. It was a bold and unequivocal commitment to our Human Rights Act and a warning to those who would try to take it away from us.

    Rejection of myths
    It was a signal from one of the most senior politicians in the land that she would not be party to an agenda that would transfer power from us to the political elite – and a rejection of the myths and misunderstandings propagated about this important piece of legislation.

    Be in no doubt: this was an important day in the fight to save the Human Rights Act.

    Here at Liberty headquarters we have seen column after column and heard speech after speech about ‘human rights gone mad’. We know all the twisted arguments and warped reasoning for scrapping the HRA backwards and forwards. We have read every screaming headline and heard every debate about ‘injecting common sense’ and ‘rebalancing rights with responsibilities’.

    Universal human rights
    On Wednesday, we witnessed something new, different and heartening. The Rt Hon Nicola Sturgeon MSP committed her Government to resisting any attempt to dilute our human rights protections – not just for her part of the country, but for her neighbours too. ‘Human rights are not English, Scottish, Welsh or Northern Irish rights – they are universal’ she told us.

    She spoke of those who have benefited from the HRA; rape victims, those with disabilities, residents of care homes and bereaved families.

    And she told us that applying human rights isn’t always easy; that there had been occasions when decisions were made that were uncomfortable for her own Government – but ultimately the result was beneficial and improved justice for all.

    Hope for the battle ahead
    Of course one speech does not a utopia make – and, as we have always done, we will keep a watchful eye on all in power, across the UK. But on Wednesday we were given hope that perhaps the odds aren’t entirely stacked against us – that there are those in power who are willing to make their voice heard in this incredibly important battle.

    Eisenhower said ‘A people who values its privileges above its principles soon loses both’. Politicians in Westminster and beyond should read the First Minister’s speech and consider which side of the argument they want to be on.

    Well done Nicola now let’s start influencing other politicians!

  59. Ian Brotherhood says:

    Murray always reminds me of an enormous toddler with indigestion.

  60. Shug says:

    Listening to BBC this morning Scottish police in chaos – must be true BBC say so

    Family thank police story no more
    They must think we are daft

    Have they heard the name Jimmy Savile

  61. Bob Mack says:

    Labour does not listen. The electorate here in Scotland have served them due notice that they are dissatisfied with their type of politics,but they continue to speak with a false tongue about how they have learned and will change.

    All the while ,people like Mandelson and the others who run Labour U.K. are openly voicing Labours intention to usurp the only socialist in the Party once they have enough leverage to declare him unelectable. In other words ,socialism out,Blairism back in.

    Murray is of the Blairite school, and will eventually find himself perfectly at home when Corbyn is toppled.

    The damn nuisance for Murray and Labour is that they cannot move too soon to oust him ,given he was elected by the membership.

    Labour have not changed one iota. They still do not regard the public as being the real power.Rather, they feel they should be leading us by the nose to fit in with their objectives.

  62. nodrog says:

    There is no doubt that lies and negativity won the referendum but the same strategy lost them the election and if they keep it up they will continue to lose everything. Corbyn may give them a brief respite in England but it will not last and they, Labour , will fall apart. Murray is not stupid he knows this but is simply making hay while the sun shines. Let’s face it what else can he do? Take the money and keep laughing Ian.

  63. scunner says:

    I am unfortunate enough to be one of his constituents. So much crap came through my door claiming he “worked his socks off” for the constituency and he made a huge deal about the Hearts thing.

    Why, when the club business & infrastructure (and I suspect the bulk of the fans) are outside the Edinburgh South boundary? And how much time did he spend on that when he should have been doing his day job? I would have thought this particular extra-curricular activity would have swallowed more than “hobby-time”.

  64. Iain More says:

    OT again

    My hunt for the owners of the Scottish Provincial Press goes on and it appears that it is part of a company called Peter Press Limited. Oh and does anybody know anything about the Glencalvie Estate?

    Old article from Herald I know as I doubt the are doing quite this well now

  65. Lollysmum says:

    Oops sorry for the length of my last post. It looked shorter in the email 🙂

  66. Another Union Dividend says:


    What fun can be had if the English FA do chase former Barcelona manager Pep Guardiola to be their manager when he stood on the list of coalition of pro Catalan independence parties running under the umbrella parliamentary list Convergencia y Esquerra last week to show his support for independence.

    Whether he would accept such a post is debatable.

  67. heidthebaw says:

    if you think he is bad then wait till the poor souls of that part of embra get to meet Daniel Johnson who is the Labour candidate for Holyrood.A red tory through and through.

  68. yesindyref2 says:

    Yes, good article. I like him though, he’s a bit of a “wide boy”. But then my favourite Dads Army character was Walker.

  69. Iain More says:

    On Pep Gaurdiola – he says Aye to Catalonia going Indy. GIRUY Gary Linaker!

  70. Thepnr says:

    @Iain More

    My hunt for the owners of the Scottish Provincial Press goes on and it appears that it is part of a company called Peter Press Limited.

    Peter Press Limited has registered office at 207 Regent Street, London, W1B 3HH. they are the majority shareholder in Scottish Provincial Press with 76.44% of the shares.

    There are two directors of Peter Press Limited:

    Mr Peter Granville Fowler
    Manor Farm, Little Rollright, Chipping Norton, Oxfordshire, OX7 5QA

    Mr Rory James Fowler
    Fluorocarbon House Caxton Hill, Hertford, Hertfordshire, SG13 7NH

  71. Brian Powell says:

    He reported the ‘vandalism’ of the stickers on his constituency office window to the newspapers not the police, at least not at first.

  72. woosie says:

    Fair point made about lab’s only mp getting more airtime than 56 SNP. But the real blow to Scotland’s standing in big politics is how the 3 amigos represent us.

    Murray is simply a buffoon, who won his seat by rubbishing his superior opponent days before the vote, with the help of msm. Wearing Ken Dodd’s old jackets nails it.

    Mundell hasn’t a clue what he’s saying, and simply repeats a collage of snatches of Porky Dave’s speeches, hoping they join up somewhere in the middle.

    Babe Ruth is more credible on occasion, but mainly lies more forcefully to add credence. She’s also a self-confessed breaker of election rules.

    All of the above may make the fine SNP contingent look even better, but the gb public aren’t allowed to hear from them; the result is, all Scots must be as stupid as those three!

  73. Lesley-Anne says:

    Talking of wee Ruthie Woosie, I wonder how her recently imposed eradication of independence supporters from within the Tory party is going. 😀

  74. Onwards says:

    @Sinky says:
    25 September, 2015 at 3:14 pm

    Police Scotland and the Scottish Fire and Rescue Service don’t have the ability to recover VAT as other emergency services across the UK and a level playing field for Scotland would free up an additional £33 million to invest in frontline services.

    Yet Ian Murray failed to support the SNP motion at Westminster on 3rd June to recover this money although Jeremy Corbyn did so.

    It’s an outrage that this VAT issue hasn’t been sorted out yet.
    No other police service pays VAT, and restoring the police VAT exemption should be a simple formality.
    There are plenty of other national and publicly funded organisations that have been given VAT exemptions, including the Northern Irish police.

    It looks like it is being ‘held back’ for Mundell to announce as a sop to those proposing amendments to the Scotland Bill, instead of accepting demands for far more significant powers.

    (This will be why the ridiculous veto’s were inserted as well, so it looks like a major concession if they are withdrawn.)

    Of course it all highlights the ridiculousness of the Scottish government not having control of major taxes in Scotland.

  75. Brian Powell says:

    Whoops, Corbyn saying he will work with SNP to get rid of Trident. Tricky one for his branch manager and most of her Cabinet.

    Interesting seeing how Jackie Baillie etc cover this.

  76. Robert Peffers says:

    @Chris Baxter says: 25 September, 2015 at 1:35 pm:

    “Then stop doing it”.

    Please consider Remedial English Language Lessons, Chris.

    Your above retort indicates you do not understand sentence construction. The lady obviously was making reply to a specific point. You obviously are not.

    “Which begs the question: why didn’t he shift party, or become Independent, rather than serve a bunch of warmongering Red Tories?”

    You must be rather young and/or stupid, Mr. Baxter. Anyone who has actually lived throughout the period you speak of is only to well aware that Mr. Corbyn had no reason to leave the party he had joined as it was the Labour Party he had joined that left him.

    The only wonder is that Mr Corbyn had the patience and fortitude to remain within the NuLabour Party that moved from the left of the political spectrum to the very extreme right of the political spectrum.

    Believe me Mr Corbyn was not alone for old dyed in the wool Labourites, for example Mr Sillers and Mr Dennis Canavan, claim they did not leave Labour because it was Labour who left them.

    Might one suggest you may feel more at home in either Red Tory LabourHame site or the equivalent Blue Tory website?

  77. gus1940 says:

    Excellent review of the Joe Pike book by Stephen Daisley on the STV site only spoiled by a revolting bit of Murphy worship towards the end.

  78. Lesley-Anne says:

    Brian Powell says:
    25 September, 2015 at 5:33 pm

    Whoops, Corbyn saying he will work with SNP to get rid of Trident. Tricky one for his branch manager and most of her Cabinet.

    Interesting seeing how Jackie Baillie etc cover this.

    Ach that’s easy peasy lemon squeezy Brian … S.N.P. BAAAAD! There you go … job done! 😀

  79. gus1940 says:

    Given the media coverage this week of the LD and UKIP conferences and the impending no doubt wall to wall coverage of the Labour & Tory love-ins it will be interesting to see how much coverage the SNP conference gets. They are, after all, the third largest partb .

    It was interesting to see how little coverage the TUC conference receiived last week – unless my memory fails me it used to receive about the same amount of coverage as the party conferences.

    I’m surprised that Stu has not had a go at the ‘SNP MPs Run Riot’ article in Brillo’s Spectator.

  80. Ian Brotherhood says:

    Magnificent excerpts from forthcoming Brewer/Cochers interview just broadcast, with the latter doing a splendid impression of a landed blobfish after being pulled-up about his self-confessed spiking of stories at the behest of Darling.


    ‘Hairy Fish-Face Gives Good Radio Stushie!’

  81. Luigi says:

    Brian Powell says:
    25 September, 2015 at 5:33 pm

    Whoops, Corbyn saying he will work with SNP to get rid of Trident. Tricky one for his branch manager and most of her Cabinet.

    Interesting seeing how Jackie Baillie etc cover this.


  82. Dave Hansell says:

    Perhaps Jim Murphy was thinking of Ian Murray when he came up with his concept of post truther’s?

  83. Robert Peffers says:

    @Muscleguy says: 25 September, 2015 at 1:41 pm:

    “As a former Labour supporter I can only look at Ian Murray and think I have taken the right decisions on this matter.”

    I have the highest regard for Craig Murray and I suspect, like him, you are quite sincere. However, both of you are very wrong in your understanding of the SNP and how it is democratically run.

    Before going any further let me be clear that it is extremely unlikely all members of any political party will agree 100% on the parties aims and views. However, the SNP are unique in at the United Kingdom’s political landscape.

    Whereas all other parties decide policies from the top down. So much so that certain parties actually resemble dictatorships with the leader making proclamations their parties are obliged to follow or to either leave the party or begin a campaign to unseat the present leader.

    The SNP decides policy from the bottom up democratically. This is achieved by all members having just one vote but more importantly the right to propose changes to party policy at branch level. If such proposals are seconded the branch must accept the proposal unless there is either an objection or an amendment that is also seconded.

    If there is an opposed proposal or an amendment then the proposal is debated and voted upon and the result goes forward eventually to National conference. At conference the same rules apply. The result is that any policy, or change of policy is arrived at in a true democratic manner.

    This does not prevent members leaving the party if they cannot reconcile themselves to the result but most will remain as they know it is the will of the members and not a diktat by the leader or cabinet.

    Which explains for you why the Labour Party could have a fairly small extreme right wing cabinet while the main body of the party were not. The recent Labour leadership ballot where all other candidates were against Corbyn while the main body of party rank & file were massively behind Corbyn. Make no mistake the Labour Party Membership elected Corbyn and the majority rejected their former right wing leaders. For all I know the main body of Labour may have always been left of centre.

  84. ArtyHetty says:

    What a plonker re Murray, really, working so hard to con the people.

    I came across a book in a local charity shop yesterday, called, ‘The Scots’ Crisis of Confidence’, by Carol Craig, 2004. Well it has a forward by Kirsty Wark, huh huh. I then dipped into various sections, of it’s 299 pages. Well, just on first impressions, I wonder if C.Craig has written an updated version, because it sure needs it.

    Anyone reading it would think the Scots were barbarians whose biggest problem is that they hate the English, are racist bigots and even hate and war with each other, just for fun really.

    Anyway, still got lots of it to read, but if anyone is interested in how things were viewed when Leibour were the popular party in Scotland, that’s the one to read.

  85. Ninja Penguin says:

    I agree that Murray’s heart is probably in the right place. Unforunately his brain isn’t.

  86. Croompenstein says:

    Baillie and Murray what a double act Hardy and Hardy.. dunno who the straight man is. Murray says he’s agin Trident and Jackie says 65,000,000 jobs depend on it.. mmmm should be quite a show

  87. yesindyref2 says:

    Daisley’s review, about Murphy: “the most talented Scottish Labour figure of his generation”

    That’s funny. What does it say about the others …

  88. uno mas says:

    Oh and another thing Ian, don´t put your arm up and lean on your burd´s shoulder like that.

    She´s not a possession!

  89. sinky says:

    O/T ok its trivial in the grand scheme of things but BBC Scotland news showed how out of touch they are with 21st century Scotland.
    Sally thought that Cod was our fish supper when proud scits prefer the better taste of Haddock then sports reporter stated that first Speedway cup final was in Edinburgh when any fule knows the Monarchs home venue is in Armadale

  90. horacesaysyes says:

    Just a small point, Rev – isn’t the interview by Liam Kirkaldy rather than Mandy Rhodes?

  91. Donald says:

    He may very well be a nice once you get to know him but he seems a total Mr Angry any time he’s on TV.

  92. David McDowell says:

    To me Ian Murray comes across as a totally charmless git.

  93. Ruby says:

    In a Youtube video entitled
    Henry McLeish at Edinburgh Central Library (Part 1/3)
    ff to 3:45

    Henry McLeish tells Lesley Riddoch:

    ‘I just hoped that the wake-up call that came in 2007 Labour would heed but I have to say sadly it’s a bit like setting the public an exam Labour’s view in 2007 the public keep getting it wrong and in 2011 they still kept getting it wrong’

    That sums up the attitude of the Labour Party pretty accurately. The voters are the ones who are failing the exam. If you include 2015 then the voters have had three fails in a row.

  94. David Agnew says:

    Labours not listening – that’s it in a nutshell. They have not learned a goddamn thing. They’re making the same mistake the tories made and consigning themselves to the fringes of Scottish politics. A party of room meat thumping tubs they got from the conservatives.

  95. Davidw says:

    Good Greif is this Ian Murray saying that because Jeremy Corben is over Pensionable age he is more likely to die soon????
    Wasnt that how he smeared his opposition candidate in the last election.

  96. sinky says:

    ArtyHetty @ 6.29
    Carol Craig lacked the self confidence to vote for self determination. Google her Guardian article

  97. robertknight says:

    You should’ve saved yourself all that effort Rev, after all, if a picture paints a thousand words, the picture you elected to use sums up the situation perfectly, without any further detail required.

  98. Brian Powell says:

    Anyone know if the Republic of Ireland is included in the EU in/out Referendum?

    They can vote in GE elections, as far as I can remember, and would be affected.

  99. Ruby says:

    “You can fool some of the people all the time, and those are the ones you want to concentrate on.”

    That is such a good quote! It sums up exactly what I think Kezia Dugdale is up to.

    Every time I read comments about Kezia Dugdale I wondered why people were even bothering to read or write about what she says.

    I’m assuming she is an intelligent person so it must be that her act is all just a way of conning these people who can be fooled all of the time/people who hear what they want to hear. It seems she isn’t bothered about people dismissing her as a fool as long as her con works on her target audience.

    I posted the above yesterday about Kezia and it would appear the same thing applies to Ian Murray.

    It’s pretty weird!

    We’ll find out in 2016 how many people have fallen for their con. I get the feeling the electorate are going to fail the ‘Labour exam’ yet again.

  100. Robert Peffers says:

    @uno mas says: 25 September, 2015 at 7:00 pm

    Oh and another thing Ian, don´t put your arm up and lean on your burd´s shoulder like that.

    She´s not a possession!”

    Actually, uno, I thought it looks more like the female has propped herself under his arm in order to stop him falling down or wobbling a bit on unsteady legs.

  101. yesindyref2 says:

    I think they look a nice couple, good for a laugh. Probably not a good idea discussing politics with the guy with the snazzy jacket though.

  102. Tinto Chiel says:

    ArtyHetty @ 6.29: don’t waste your time. As sinky said, she lacked the confidence to vote Yes. She is just a Poundshop Muriel Gray. Basically, the book undermines Scottish self confidence. Only in Scotland do we get utter Cringers like this.


  103. Scott Borthwick says:

    As well as smearing his nearest opponent during the General Election campaign, Murray made a big noise about how he was anti-Trident. Now he’s in the shadow cabinet, collective responsibility holds sway.

    I foresee many more ‘principled’ abstentions in future Westminster divisions from young Mr Murray. I wouldn’t call that doing great things for his constituents.

  104. Ian Brotherhood says:

    Does anyone know how long, on average, it takes for already-broadcast BBC RS programmes to appear on I-player?

    Keep checking for tonight’s ‘Drivetime’ or whatever they call it now, but no sign…

    I only caught the Brewer/Cochers exchange when it was underway, and that was approx. 5.55. It was basically a puff-piece for the full version, to be released to a grateful nation on Sunday morning.

    The section I heard can be summed-up and paraphrased thus:

    ‘A journalist? Journalist? I’m not a fucking journalist! I’m a Unionist!’

    Seriously. It’s classic stuff – please, please, let someone post a link here the very instant it becomes available. In the meantime, I’m moseying off to O/T to get-down, and y’all are very welcome…

  105. Tam Jardine says:

    The unionist zealots are in a right old strop over Kezia’s ‘backing of independence’ as if the tectonic plates of Scottish labour have shifted. Conservative voters are claiming they would never vote for labour now!

    It struck me she was completely unprepared for this fairly obvious question from Gordon Brewer.

    He was able to lead her down a path not of her own choosing and she was unable to get out of it. Hence slab policy has just been completely rewritten, on the hoof by Kezia on this fundamental issue.

    And wee Wullie the ambulance chaser followed suit- but then he has nothing left to loose.

    Slab have some distance left to fall and pr will no doubt cushion the landing.

    The machiavellian move would be to stand candidates on a UK labour ticket- no voting, left wing real labour to split the slab vote and get them truly hollowed out in May. Then disappear and let the SNP hoover up the debris. Mwah ha ha….

  106. Thepnr says:

    @Ian Brotherhood

    It’s up on iplayer now, starts 1:51:45 in.

    Full interview with GB to be broadcast Sunday morning from 08:00.

  107. Tinto Chiel says:

    On reflection, ArtyHetty, if you want to write a dissertation about how Scottish Labour betrayed the Scottish People, you could perhaps read more of Ms Craig’s book. I’m sure you could do an excellent job of disembowelling their hypocrisy and mendacity.

    This strange little Scottish ritual has always intrigued me but only recently have I seen photographs of the remote place. Something as touching and genuine as this refreshes my spirit, somehow. We really don’t need quacks like Carol as we move towards independence. This is more inspiring in its ancient way. Weird but wonderful:

  108. msean says:

    Scotland used to be a one party state under Labour until the internet became widespread,they never mention that much. It lasted for decades.

  109. cirsium says:

    @arthetty, 6.29

    This article on Ms Craig is interesting

    Some background “In 1975, the US sociologist Michael Hechter published a work entitled “Internal Colonialism”, in which he enquired into reasons for the survival of separate national identities in the Celtic Fringe of the UK. He argued that the affirmation of separate cultural identity and solidarity there was a result of uneven socio-economic development, which had divided the UK into two groups: a privileged group in the centre, which had arrogated to itself more than its fair share of high-level functions, controlling credit and commerce and benefiting from an abundance of high-quality services, while the peripheral group had to content itself largely with more subordinate and low-status functions and less abundant and less well developed services.

    In other words, the relations between the centre and the periphery of the UK state had taken a form which resembled the relations between an imperial power and its colonies in the colonial era. Hence the term internal colonialism, whereby in the UK as constituted economic resources and power are concentrated in England, to the advantage of which Scotland is subordinated, with the consequence that culture, values and ways of life characteristic of England tend to be favoured above those of Scotland, which tend to be dismissed as less developed:

    “One of the defining characteristics of the colonial situation is that it must involve the interaction of at least two cultures – that of the conquering metropolitan élite (cosmopolitan culture) and that of the indigenes (native culture) – and that the former is promulgated by the colonial authorities as being vastly superior for the realization of universal ends: salvation in one age; industrialization in another. One of the consequences of this denigration of indigenous culture is to undermine the native’s will to resist the colonial régime. If he is defined as barbarian, perhaps he should try to reform himself by becoming more cosmopolitan. Failure to win high position within the colonial structure tends to be blamed on personal inadequacy, rather than any particular shortcomings of the system itself. The native’s internalization of the colonist’s view of him makes the realization of social control less problematic. Conversely, the renaissance of indigenous culture implies a serious threat to continued colonial domination.””

    I always wondered if Ms Craig had read Mr Hechter’s book.

  110. Ian Brotherhood says:

    @Thepnr –

    Ya beauty!!

    It’s a belter, eh?

  111. Tinto Chiel says:

    “The machiavellian move would be to stand candidates on a UK labour ticket- no voting, left wing real labour to split the slab vote and get them truly hollowed out in May. Then disappear and let the SNP hoover up the debris. Mwah ha ha….”

    You is pure evil, by the way, Tam Jardine.

    At the time, I felt Brewer’s sleekit smile showed he felt he had skewered her. BBC functionary he may be, but there was perhaps just a little of a real journalist left in him to enjoy the moment.

    SLAB are about to be pulled apart bcause of their internal fault lines. Ironically, Mr Corbyn, I feel, is going to be the agent.

  112. FergusMac says:

    The gentleman in the photo appears to have mislaid his flute and Lambeg Drum. Perhaps they are keeping his bowler hat company.

  113. Greg Drysdale says:

    We are currently canvassing for Stirling East by election on October 1st since our previous councillor became our MP. It’s incredible how many people on the doorsteps are surprised to find out that we have not only a Labour/Tory coalition but a TORY in charge of the budget! Another example of the depths Labour will go to by hopping into bed with the Conservatives to prevent a majority of democratically elected SNP councillors being in control. We can only hope to see the back of their disastrous decision making come 2017. Seems so long away…

  114. Thepnr says:

    @Ian Brotherhood

    Yeah a belter right enough. Never heard auld Cochers talk before. It was a suprise, thought he would have sounded more, well, refined. He sounds rougher than me on a Sunday morning LOL.

  115. Still Positive. says:

    Cochers sounds totally pissed – liquid lunch?

  116. NN says:

    I have to wonder if Murray is a dimwitted numpty who reveals himself as such whenever he’s given enough rope to hang himself during interviews and enough public speaking or is it even worse – that he’s a spineless coward who folds to whatever the current party line is and then repeats that in public, abandoning his principles to try and please his masters and the string pullers within or without the party, as per his example with the knife in Corbyn’s back.

  117. seanair says:

    I’ve not followed speedway for a long time so I’ll take your word that Edinburgh Monarchs are now based in Armadale.
    However when they were at their peak they rode at Meadowbank (Old Meadowbank, not New Meadowbank) in Edinburgh. The name gives the clue—Edinburgh Monarchs!

  118. Cochrane shows that that a large number of mainstream journalist have no integrity whatsoever and are nothing more than spin doctors. If I was a journalist I would distance myself from him and whoever pays him as journalists should not be bought which he is.

  119. Tinto Chiel says:

    cirsium: as Molly Bloom would say, “Yes, yes, yes, yes, yes….”

    When are people in Scotland going to see the truth of Hechter’s words and throw off the Scottish Cringe?

    Great quotation. Mind you, we’ll never see it in the Daily Record, will we? Or the organic-brown-rice -chomping, be-sandalled Grauniad. Not even if you chopped it down into wee words for them.


    I’ve only got so long and want to die with a Scottish passport in my pocket.

  120. Dr Jim says:

    Cochers has his own particular method of Rehydration (hic)

  121. Still Positive. says:

    I want to live in an independent Scotland not just die in it. And I’ve just turned 65.

  122. Big Jock says:

    I can’t take anyone seriously that would wear that jacket. I don’t need to know anything further about him. Only a tosser would wear a Union Jack Jacket I.E Cliff Richard.

    Scottish but eh……

  123. Lollysmum says:

    Launch Night for Dalriada live now on Independence Live

  124. Tinto Chiel says:

    Good point, Still Positive.

    I’m 83 but Taylor Swift says I’m looking a bit peaky.

    Time is of the essence.

  125. Big Jock says:

    Still positive. Don’t worry. I always believed that when the Union ended. It would come quickly,take even the Scots by surprise and we would never look back.

    The silent majority was a myth created to make a no win credible. We saw George Square last week. The unionists couldn’t fill a phone box. Where are they all? Even the young Rangers guy at my work said all his young friends voted yes.

    So we were lied to made fools of. Cameron even had the Queen in on it. The phoney war is over. The UK is finished and this is it ending in front of our eyes.

  126. heedtracker says:

    A coincidence surely:D but the novel, We Need To Talk About Kevin, is an amazing work of American gothic horror, exploring how a psychopath actually gets going.

    Not that running around like he does in that photo up there makes oor Ian a psychopath, does it. Oh well, 40 down, one to go.

  127. Thepnr says:

    We all know there will be another referendum, the only question is on the timing.

    Right now and for the foreseeable future the grassroots campaign for a Yes vote can’t afford to let up for even a moment.

    their may not be an official Better Together campaign anymore but you just have to watch or listen to the BBC or read a newspaper to know that it is relentlessly stalking the people of Scotland.

    They have not gone away and neither should we, if anything we should push harder. I am so glad that internet sites such as Wings, WGD, Bella etc carried on. I am also so glad that most people here on wings have stuck around and in fact am gladdened to see that number has increased since last years referendum.

    There will be no start to a second campaign, we are already in it. Keep fighting folk, it is a fight worth fighting for and we shall win only if we believe we shall win.

  128. Another Union Dividend says:

    BBC TV news giving credence to spokesperson from Jim Murphy’s favourite right wing Henry Jackson Society.

  129. Still Positive. says:

    It has always been my feeling since 19/9 last year that Scotland would become independent through events outwith our control and I stand by that.

    It may be sooner than we think.

    Maybe no need for another ref.

  130. Tinto Chiel says:

    Well said, Thepnr.

    It’s a pity the official Yes campaign folded up its tents almost immediately.

    We are now in a de facto Indyref2 campaign. We have to be the foot soldiers until the official reopening of hostilities.

    What’s so frustrating is that even if we had only 50% of TV/MSM, we would walk it.

    The Democratic Deficit is an obscenity.

  131. Big Jock says:

    Agree totally. The Tories are pushing Scotland to independence. Events will make it a fate acomply.

  132. Chic McGregor says:

    One of my daughter’s bought me Carol Craig’s book at the time it was published in the mistaken belief that it would be an erudite debunking of the Scottish cringe. In mitigation, that belief was a reasonable one given the general pitch of the launch blurb. Indeed for some years after it appeared one could still find nationalists recommending it.

    However, upon reading it I found that the worst example of cringe within it was that of the author herself.

  133. JayR says:

    ArtyHetty @ 6.29 pm
    sinky @ 7.43 pm
    Tinto Chiel @ 8.10 pm

    Of course Carol Craig voted NO. She’s GORDON BROWN’S former girlfriend (poor wummin) and married to Unionist Alf Young. I hate how all these Labour and Unionist b@st@rds are all over the media and public life in Scotland and there’s never any public mention and acknowledgement of their links and their bias. But we’re wise to them all now…another positive outcome of the Yes movement.

  134. Big Jock says:

    Tinto.The situation with BBC Scotland is untenable. If we are to win we need to do something about them.

    However the newspapers are a lost cause. All owned by Murdoch or rich folks in London. Even the Sunday Herald has reverted to SNP BAD!

  135. heedtracker says:

    Rancid header for JC

    “Jeremy Corbyn planning to link up with SNP to remove Trident
    Labour leader reaffirms his opposition to the nuclear weapons programme in BBC interview, and says of SNP: ‘Yes, we will be voting with them on this’

    Should interesting being a UKOK fly on the wall when Kezia meets Ian next. Its pretty clear that JC and co have been watching Nic Sturgeon and the SNP with great interest.

  136. galamcennalath says:

    JayR says:

    I hate how all these Labour and Unionist b@st@rds are all over the media and public life in Scotland and there’s never any public mention and acknowledgement of their links and their bias.

    Indeed. It’s an aspect of the political arena in Scotland that I am sure a lot of the general public are unaware. Even if they are aware of the bias, they may not fully understand how and why it happens.

    I doubt if Labour have ever been sophisticated enough the actually generate the network of links. I suspect it just came about because for so long Scotland was a de facto one party state. The establishment was Labour. The media and political circles will always mingle and when Labour was omni-present it just grew.

    The network needs to be exposed and challenged.

  137. shug says:

    Just saw the evening news
    Big section on the old lady in Clydebank – mentions family has no complaint but there are concerns about how the police service is operating!!!!
    Only by the BBC!!
    This is a coordinated attack leading into the Bradford woman – concerns about the NHS

    If you are reading this BBC we do not believe you

    Read my lips Jimmy Saville

  138. Tinto Chiel says:

    Big Jock.

    I am concerned about the real reason Mr Walker walked, so to speak.

    Perhaps last week’s SH was just written in a fit of pique against Tommy Sheridan, but I think we should all watch it closely over the next few weeks. I have always thought Federalist Mr MacWhirter was a lukewarm Independista.

    Question is: how to subvert UnionJackieVision? Personally, I think It is so discredited (apart from in the eyes of the dwindling Empire Biccies) that it is slowly dying. None of my daughters’ generation even watch it.

    The future belongs to us.

  139. Big Jock says:

    Tinto. You are right about Mcwhirter. A fair weathered nationalist. Can’t be relied on for any consistency or fidelity to the cause. Federalism is the death of s nation. It’s accepting you are a state and not a nation.

  140. manandboy says:

    Thepnr says “Right now and for the foreseeable future the grassroots campaign for a Yes vote can’t afford to let up for even a moment.”

    Right on pnr. The grassroots campaign must act independently and according to its instinct. Any leaning toward waiting for the SNP / Scottish government to initiate would imv be a mistake.

    As Robin McAlpine says ‘referendums are not won DURING a referendum.’ Campaigning by the No Campaign has never stopped and needs to be matched by the Yes campaign.

    With others, I believe external forces will possibly play a part, but I was certain of a Yes result. Now, if I had a choice between believing and a poll, I’d take the poll.

    ‘You can fool some of the people all of the time and they’re the ones to concentrate on’. That’s apropos of nothing – I just like it. But I do think Better Together fooled the pensioners big time.

  141. Thepnr says:

    Good news Indy Live have reached their fundraiser target.

    Still time to chuck a fiver in the pot if you can afford it. It’s worth it, they are still a bit rough around the edges but from small acorns…

  142. Tinto Chiel says:

    I always thought, Big Jock, that federalism implies acceptance that we are are merely a region or shire of Greater England (Fluffy Mundell’s ludicrous and insulting argument) and so I find it even more demeaning than our present arrangement. At least just now we are supposedly equal partners in a United Kingdom, as per the Act of Union.

    You are quite right about what is the dead end of federalism. It also would never be allowed to happen by Londinium.

    Utter moonshine, which is why the FibDems (in all their guises) have supported it for a century.

  143. manandboy says:

    By the daily reporting of disappointing Scottish news, the viewers of the BBC will quickly become disappointed in Scotland – unless they know better, and many don’t. And from disappointment it is a short step to thing that Westminster can do the job better.

    Constant psychological warfare targeted at the elderly.

  144. Tinto Chiel says:

    Meant to say, thanks, JayR. Something else I didn’t know.

    Explains a lot.

    The power of Wings, eh?

  145. Big Jock says:

    Yes and when you find out The Faroe Isles. Have more autonomy than Scotland. I.E everything bar foreign affairs and defence. It shows how redundant the Smith proposals are.

    Malta hads done very well since it dumped the UK altogether. Yet it has the population of Edinburgh and land mass of Mull.

  146. Ken500 says:

    The SNP majority is a result of fifty years of hard Labour

  147. Big Jock says:

    Eleanor Bradford has been commissioned to start her SNP BAD again by BBC. Cause it was so effective in the GE 2015. BBC will have daily tales of doom on the NHS until next May.

    The great thing is no one believes them. So they are a one trick pony. Attack,attack same as SLAB. Everyone knows Westminster is cutting the funding and the SNP are on damage limitation in the NHS.

  148. Bob Reid says:

    This article is the reason I have spent money here in the past and why I do so will again.

  149. Chic McGregor says:

    “The SNP majority is a result of fifty years of hard Labour”

    That’a 9.

  150. Lesley-Anne says:

    Interesting wee video about some wee unknown politician called Alex Salmond, whoever he is. 😀

  151. Lochside says:

    Re. Carol Craig, married to Alf Young who admitted he knew about the ‘6000 sq miles’ stolen on the point of DEvo in 1999…how could he not?

    Meanwhile ‘Operation Fear’ continues courtesy of the BBC: (1)’NO COMPLAINT BY FAMILY’…Murdoch family not complaining about Police Scotland…but BBC lead with on news and link it to ‘couple in ditch’ deaths…despite no connection to call centres or any other similarity..reported by Catriona Renton Labour mouthpiece.

    (2) Then good old Jackie Baillie’s mate, Eleanor Bradford with a ludicrous puff about the increase in waiting lists for radiology….with a complete diversionary bit about some poor old guy who died…but despite figures twice or more better than 2006 (labour rule)..ended with the classic ‘the SG has acknowledged the need for scans…it appeared to be happening..but now the picture is all together different..(? eh whit?).

    The only ‘news’ that really mattered was the memorial service to 7000 Scots dead, taking place in Dundee..our ancestors murdered at Loos in 1915 by British Imperialism.. but we still got the same old shite about them ‘dying for our freedom’….No they didnae! They were sacrificed to no avail along with 140,000 other Scots.
    A sacrifice of our young men on the altar of militarism which crippled this country for a hundred years.

    The sooner we get rid off this poisonous broadcaster the better…they’re still lying on behalf of Pernicious Albion.

  152. Al Dossary says:

    @Lesley-Ann : Thanks for the link, will kill 1 hour of my train journey down to the “Beating Heart of the Nation” or the “Cesspit” that is London on Monday. Downloading as I type.

    The one saving grace is that I am in the Cumberland hotel for 2 nights, will likely be more Arabs around that area than of our Southern cousins.

  153. Tinto Chiel says:

    Amen to that Lochside, but how do we reclaim our dead from the recent grotesque phenomenon of Poppy Fascism?

    “And no great mischief if they fall…”

    We need a radical history of the sacrifice of our forces in WW1.

    Don’t hold your breath: we’ll soon be fully into Cenotaph mode, when the Pig-sticker will pretend to care and place a wreath on the literally empty memorial.

  154. Lesley-Anne says:

    Glad to be of service Al. 😉

    Hope you stay safe when you are down in the beating cesspit.

    Wishing you a safe journey dan suff and an even safer return journey back noff! 😀

  155. Lesley-Anne says:

    O.K. then folks, hands up who saw this coming down the track! 😀

  156. Ian Brotherhood says:

    @Lochside & Tinto Chiel –

    Great, thought-provoking stuff.

    Sometimes we make assumptions about what each other knows, about this, that, or whatever else.

    This morning, as part of ‘homework’, I watched the following ‘documentary’, which I was sure I’d already seen a long time ago.

    Turns out I hadn’t seen it. And it made me want to vomit.

    It was produced and broadcast by the BBC, in 1964.

    Can anyone imagine the BBC commissioning, let alone broadcasting something like this now?

    And if not, what should that tell us about the ‘state’ we’re now in?

    ‘Culloden’ by Peter Watkins (Historical Advisor, John Prebble)

  157. Tinto Chiel says:

    I should admit a personal interest, Lochside. Every Hogmanay I would visit my great aunts, two widows who still wore black in the 70s and whose husbands had died within days of each other at Loos. They never remarried. I always remembered them sitting on the settee, and their shoes barely touching the ground, they were so petite.

    When you read the accounts of the battle (and so many others) you realise our lives were very cheap: just look at the attrition rates for Scottish regiments set against other regiments in the British Army.

    Pooling and sharing…

  158. been longer fighting than 50yrs

  159. yesindyref2 says:

    Interesting, bt website takes you to a holding page with “domain may be for sale”. which they took weeks to update to say thank you, still has that holding page, but Registration Expiration Date: 2019-04-12. Its hosting is safe as well.

  160. Lochside says:

    Tinto Chiel, I’m working on proving the real extent of Scotland’s sacrifice in WW1…I had a public dispute with a pompous English ‘historian’ Hew Strachan and his Royal military lackey at an ‘Aye Rite’ lecture precisely on this subject.

    Strachan…a disciple of the new English school of rewriting British history by excluding us from it…was in total denial regarding Scottish casualities being twice the ratio of the rest of UK.

    This lie that he and the other deny-ers follows the same narrative about ‘Dunkirk’..the ‘brave victory’ snatched from defeat…which always excludes the sacrifice of the Higland division of 10.000 men at St Valery…who were still fighting days after the last of the ‘lads’ had been rescued.

    Why did BBC Scotland not do a documentary on Loos…one of the biggest Scottish armies in history…being butchered by British incompetence and indifference?….sorry that’s rhetorical isn’t it?

    Scotland’s story both martial and otherwise has yet to be written truthfully…let’s hope it soon will!

  161. Tinto Chiel says:

    Ian B: I’m just going up to beddybyes but I agree this film is incredibly powerful and made, as I recall, with a tiny cast of about 20+ bodies. Your reaction is understandable and similar to mine on first viewing.

    Peter Watkins was a genius, a great technician. We also need a radical reassessment of the Jacobites to dispel the “doomed rebellion” narrative of the victors. The considerable support they continued to have among Protestant Lowlanders after 1746 suggests they were seen as the repository of a Scottish identity which resisted the Hanoverian Succession. I wish Stuart McHardy would produce such a history: he knows where the bodies are buried and is an excellent communicator.

    Thanks for the great link: now in my favourites.

  162. Lochside says:

    Tinto Chiel, me too, my Granny’s brother was lost at Loos, only a boy…and she never stopped mourning his loss.

    I often stop when passing through a small village and count up the names on the local memorial…often the same surnames appear several times…brothers, fathers, sons.

    I look around and imagine that for every name…another three or four were maimed mentally and or physically. Then I remember that these latter men came back to what?….poverty, unemployment and emigration…a land fit for what?

  163. Lochside says:

    Ian B and Tinto Chiel,
    Just saw your comments about ‘Culloden’….brilliant film…all but forgotten..but still powerful to this day.

    If films and documentaries like this were still being made and shown to our children….would there be anybody left in a generation who would consider voting ‘NO’?

    …That’s why they are not….Good night auld friends.

  164. Tinto Chiel says:

    I’m afraid, Lochside, that military history is the preserve of the Sandhurst blue shirt and tweed jacket set who, as you rightly say, deny our disproportionate sacrifice. Post Ref, I no longer have any time for Max Hastings or Andrew Roberts, and A Beevor was also a big disappointment.

    I’ve been to the HD memorial at St Valéry en Caux on a kind of pilgrimage and it makes your blood boil. The French (including De Gaulle) revere us more than Churchill did.

    You seem to have the bit between your teeth. Who’s going to write if you don’t? All the best.

    Keep digging!

    Night, all.

  165. Ian Brotherhood says:

    @Lochside & Tinto Chiel –

    I hope your conversation is noted by folk who can help in whatever way possible to set the story straight.

    And even if they can’t help, you’ve maybe helped set it straight for them.

    ‘Win-win’, as they say.


  166. Tinto Chiel says:

    Ian B: Now in bed with Taylor Swift, doing some Scrabble. The words she knows!

    Had a great time in Freedom Square last week but missed you and some other celebs like WGD and Taranaich.

    Maybe see you next time. Big Ronnie did a great job.

    Won’t be in the Far East tomorrow ( today) for drinky-poos, my rudderless team are playing the Harry Wraggs.

  167. Robert Louis says:

    Lesley-anne at 1230am,

    I am very much in favour of thriving media in Scotland, but I will not shed a tear at the further demise of the laughingly titled ‘Scotsman’ ‘news’ paper. It is the most incorrectly titled publication anywhere in the world. It presents ‘shortbread tin’ Scotland, with its ‘haggis hunt’ and whisky competitions, all the while maintaining a colonial Scotland, subservient to London’s whims.

    Once the champion of Scotland, nowadays it is a sham, and a fraud, so unpopular in Scotland, that it is given away free to unwitting tourists at the Edinburgh festival. A sad, outdated relic of the power certain branches of the media used to have at maintaining the ‘poor wee Scotland’ narrative.

    In my lifetime, the laughingly titled ‘Scotsman’ ‘news’paper, had one of the most prestigious addresses and offices in Scotland, on Edinburgh’s North Bridge, looking over the city and now it is in some floors of a non descript edge of town, concrete office block. Yet still it clings to its wholly outdated editorial line, of Scotland ruled by London, for London. Sadly I think it is too late for the management to ‘sniff the coffee and wake up’ to the earthquake change in Scotland.

    The world has moved on, and Scotland has moved on, and nobody at this rag appears to have noticed. This paper is just a relic of the past. It is truly sad for anybody to lose their job, but Scotland should rejoice the day this tawdry rag finally shuffles off into the pages of colonial history.

    We need a media in Scotland that stands up and speaks for Scotland, not an outdated colonial cringe, dressed up as an early 21st century brigadoon.

  168. Socrates MacSporran says:

    I note Tinto Chiel, above, having a go at Churchill regarding St Valery.

    I had a former boss who was captured there, and spent the remainder of the war as a POW.

    His take on events was – Churchill knew, to buy time to get the bulk of the BEF off the beaches, a rearguard had to be deployed (some will say sacrificed) to hold-up the German advance.

    And, as a former officer in the RSF, Churchill reasoned – the best troops to deploy for this thankless task were those in the 51st Division.

    Of course, mistakes were made, shit happens in war, but, the 51st did their job and paid a high price.

    Churchill certainly had his faults, and plenty of them, but, he made it clear, Britain and the Empire would never surrender – why should they, they were potentially stronger than Germany and Italy. He knew he could rely on the Jocks to do their bit – he also knew, he couldn’t rely on some in the Establishment with the same degree of certainty.

    That belief, certainly in 1940, was not universally held in the Establishment. Today, the descendants of the Establishment types – who would have turfed-out Churchill in an instant had he not been so-determined, are writing history and still have some influence.

  169. starlaw says:

    Churchill may be regarded as a great leader, but he was the only establishment figure prepared to fight, the rest wanted peace talks. Churchill just bumbled along from situation to situation without regard for the lives lost in getting there the ordinary people were expendable.

  170. galamcennalath says:

    I have heard it said, but perhaps some research online could confirm, that Scotland took a higher rate of casualties than the rest of the UK in WW2, Korea, and recent Gulf wars. So just just WW1. I’d be interesting in Crimea too, where Scots regiments were heavily involved.

  171. ewen says:

    @ ianbrotherhood
    ‘re Peter Watkins. A lot of his stuff only got one showing and got unofficially banned.

    The War game is still chilling. Every politician should be made to watch it. Culloden is a tour de force. The drama documentary idea was virtually founded by Watkins and he always used locals in his films. I don’t expect the BBC will be showing Culloden or The War game soon but you can get the on DVD. I’d also recommend punishment park, the gladiators and the commune.

  172. Fairliered says:

    Lesley Anne @ 12:30
    Is the Creative Services department at the Scotsman the one that invents the SNP BAD stories?

  173. galamcennalath says:

    starlaw says:

    Churchill may be regarded as a great leader, but he was the only establishment figure prepared to fight, the rest wanted peace talks.

    Starting from the Royals and working right across society, many had Fascist sympathies. Probably, their right wing views saw much common ground! The ‘phoney war’, the Hess episode, behaviour of George Duke of Kent, and Viscount Halifax foreign secretary…. All point to a strong faction wanting to remain neutral, as Vichy France eventually did.

    Much of the history of that period was rewritten before the war even ended, to give an illusion of a united country.

  174. Brian Powell says:


    But Scotsman still worm-tongued, showing Yes poll and SNP supporter in the photo with the headline!

  175. Proadge says:

    JayR says:
    25 September, 2015 at 10:36 pm
    ArtyHetty @ 6.29 pm
    sinky @ 7.43 pm
    Tinto Chiel @ 8.10 pm

    Of course Carol Craig voted NO. She’s GORDON BROWN’S former girlfriend (poor wummin) and married to Unionist Alf Young. I hate how all these Labour and Unionist b@st@rds are all over the media and public life in Scotland and there’s never any public mention and acknowledgement of their links and their bias. But we’re wise to them all now…another positive outcome of the Yes movement.

    Thanks Jay (et al) for this. I spoke to Carol Craig at a corporate event 10 years ago and made the (to me) obvious point that the Scottish cultural cringe was intrinsically a political issue: of course a nation will lack confidence if it has another nation making all the big decisions for it. Craig was oddly unreceptive to this idea, unwilling to acknowledge the proverbial elephant sitting square in the middle of her subject area – the effect of – let’s call it what is it – colonisation. Her Unionist alliances (and, no doubt, patrons) which I wasn’t aware of, explain her reticence on this.

    Scotland very much needs a rigorous academic analysis of its ingrained lack of confidence but Carol Craig’s distraction of a study certainly isn’t it. The cultural cringe has been weakened by Yes and all the good things it brings but, particularly on the part of No voters, it remains a defining national characteristic. This was brought home to me by a recent conversation about the mooted new Scottish TV channel in which I was treated to a description of how shit it would inevitably be – wall-to-wall Francie and Josie, the Krankies, Rab C Nesbitt etc. The notion that it might be an opportunity for Scotland to take itself seriously wasn’t on the radar.

    This level of national self-loathing is a huge thing, not acknowledged enough, and another unanswerable argument for the normalisation of Scotland’s constitutional arrangements and the end of this strange, toxic Union.

  176. Dr Jim says:

    Cuts Cuts Cuts to Journalists from their London bosses
    Paper sales hit the floor, and you know what they’ve deduced from all this, the Sherlocks that they are

    “We’re not giving the people what they want”

    Eureka, but too fcuking late innit mate

    I listened to some of them this morning on the radio bemoaning their fate “How can we run a paper with budget cuts and staff cuts” they say, Aaw Diddums

    It’s OK for the Scottish Government to have Budget cuts from Westminster and those same papers demanding the SNP do something about their Baad Administration

    No sympathy, none whatsoever, and why, they’re still claiming to be doing the right thing and being good journalists, now where have we all heard this same shit from a bunch of self serving politicians we could all name

    Arrogance izny enuff o a wurd fur thum

  177. Ken500 says:

    Few people knew about the viciousness of the Nazis and the madness of Hitler until after the War, There was not universal suffrage in Germany. Women did not have the vote in 1939 Germany was not a Democracy. The likelihood would have been Hitler would not have come to power. Russia did not have Universal Suffrage.

    Churchill was an alcoholic. Alcoholics make poor decisions. Alcoholics are just worried where the next drink is coming from. They take risks and make dangerous decisions. Addiction clouds decisions. In the 1950’s Churchill took all Iran’s Oil and destabilised the country. Destabilised the Middle East.

    The Russians defeated Hitler, outnumbered the Germans and the Italians . Russia took the hit for the West. It devastated the Russian economy. Poland was handed over to Russia at the 11WW settlement at Yalta. Despite the Allies fighting for Poland’s freedom. Poland did not get self governance.

    In WW11 in Europe

    26Million Russian died (1 in 6)
    8 Millions Germans died (1 in 4)
    6 Million Poles
    6 Million Jews
    2 Million American
    1/2 Million British
    1/2 Million French

    There was War in the Far East and the Middle East.

  178. Ken500 says:

    People can’t get the National because it is sold out. It will be rectified. Sales go through the till. Orders are placed on number of sales. For sold out items the numbers ordered are increased. I.e. Marketing policies.

  179. Big Jock says:

    Regards WW1.My dad told me that his Grandad was sent to his death, with countless other Scots. His grannie who was Irish detested the Brits after that and refused to ever wear a poppy.

    All this died for your freedom,is a lot of make believe and wishful thinking. They died in vain for political reasons. It was basically an argument between the royals and ruling classes. WW1 was the biggest mass murder in history.

    Note Germany came back with a vengeance in World War 2. WW1 should be remembered as a bloodbath and a waste of some of Scotland’s finest young men.

  180. Ken500 says:

    Fifty years of Labour. Self fulfilling. The Labour/Unionists mafia. Collude to bring Scotland down for self seeking power. That is why (a relatively small number) of people join Unionists parties in Scotland or elsewhere, for what they can get. Self seeking. Those who can do. Those who can’t join Unionists Political Parties. Ignorant and arrogant.

  181. heedtracker says:

    Another day teamGB day of disinforming ukok style or is anyone in their Scotland region asking shadow Scottish sec what new, fresh and exciting Corbyn’s actual up to?

    eg rancid The Graun online front page

    “John McDonnell: Labour will match Osborne and live within our means
    Exclusive: shadow chancellor says party will vote in favour of same as blue toryboy socialism for the rich, austerity for the poor.”

    First BTL cif

    “I think that McDonnell is a breath of fresh air in articulating an alternative to the madness of austerity. George Osborne is cruel, stupid and evil, vote JC, yada yada…

    We need an alternative to the neoliberal consensus that has dominated British politics for decades. Austerity isn’t working, it’s time for an alternative.”

    250 likes for that one and how Labour now matching Tory austerity became an overnight breath of fresh air/alternative to neoliberal consensus to any sucka, not discussed?

    Scotland’s shackled to a lunatic but no doubt oor Ian will be explaining it all to Sir Gordon Brewer tomorrow.

  182. Ken500 says:

    WW1. There was not Universal Suffrage. The Royal cousins in Europe who held power fell out.
    The European Royals were inbred, they were all related. ‘Keep it in the family’. The European Royals married their cousins. Their mothers and fathers were cousins and they married their cousins, almost incestuous. Their Treaties, Alliances and rivalries caused the 1WW.

  183. Fred says:

    Anent Scotland’s pre-war fascists, our jackbooted collaborators-in-waiting, headed by the earl of Glasgow (whose family got the title for selling their country in 1707) & the faither of “Taxi for McLetchie”. Seig Heil!

  184. ronnie aanderson says:

    @ Lesley-Anne The Scotsman & the chapel of NUJ going on strike, the bloody lot of them would have seen Scots on their knees in subjigation, before our Imperial masters.

    Johnstone Press Fek em, those Journalists had over two years to turn the Scotsman sales around,& secure their jobs, but they continue,d to churn out anti Scotland rhetoric.

    Nobody likes to see People losing their livlyhoods. They followed & contributed to their Masters War of Words ( no lives or limbs were lost) unlike those in Uniform that followed their Imperial Masters bidding.

    Chapel of NUJ reap what Your Masters sow (Unemployment) & I hope the rest of the Journalistic profession take note R/Rancid & Bbc/Stv..

  185. Nana Smith says:


    The drouth contemporary pdf Andrew Tickel

  186. Robert Peffers says:

    @Still Positive. says: 25 September, 2015 at 9:10 pm:

    “Cochers sounds totally pissed – liquid lunch?”

    The old soak sounds like that all day, not just after lunchtime. If it isn’t booze then he really needs treatment. Come to think on it, if it is the booze, he still needs treatment.

  187. Robert Peffers says:

    @Big Jock says: 25 September, 2015 at 9:48 pm:

    “So we were lied to made fools of. Cameron even had the Queen in on it. The phoney war is over. The UK is finished and this is it ending in front of our eyes.”

    It is perhaps significant that, post referendum, almost every person or organisation that publically came out for the Better Together has suffered a nosedive in their fortunes.

    From Her Majesty to the supermarkets and financial institutes. Even the sellers of certain luxury foods and drinks and the unionist political parties see their stars are fading fast.

    Anyone who relies upon the general public for their living has to be totally stupid to take sides in an issue that was always going have a more or less 50% to 50% outcome.

  188. Tinto Chiel says:

    Morning, Socrates MacSporran.

    The Highland Division was sacrificed in a vain attempt to stiffen French resolve long after most of their army had thrown in the towel. Churchill’ s judgment here can and has been severely criticised: see, for example, Saul David’s well-received book on the subject. A non-military history account which describes the experiences of two Gaelic -speaking sodgers is to be found in St Valery: The Impossible Odds by Bill Innes. Many of the 51st resented their fate as expendables deeply. Of course, Churchill had form in this kind of thing, eg Gallipoli.

    Churchill had many qualities as a war leader but he was capable of dreadful and embarrassing decisions: the transporting of many Poles who had fought in the British Forces into the arms of Stalin and certain death was probably the worst. In general he seems to have suffered from a lack of empathy, probably as a result of his childhood experiences at public school. Some might argue this is necessary in a leader…..

    Strategic sacrifice is ok as long as you’re not the one doing the sacrificing, I suppose and it was a dubious honour for the HD to be selected for the task.

  189. woosie says:


    Thanks for the great news on the scotchman’s imminent collapse. Was it Denis Canavan who was roundly criticised for warning certain institutions there would be “a day of reckoning”? Surely this is the first of several. Hopefully!

    I believe the true extent of the Yes vote became evident in the uk ge, and is showing in reduced revenue for most papers, and ebc.

    Next time round, maybe some will have learned that ukok isn’t going to help them just because they said “vote no”.

  190. Harry McAye says:

    O/T The National really needs to tighten up and put a bit more effort into its football reporting, or even just a bit of competence. Back page today, new interim Motherwell manager preparing for a trip to Dundee. They are at home to Partick. Also on front page, Mhairi Black on page 3, its page 5.

  191. Nana Smith says:

    O/T starts soon

    LIVE STREAM: Cockenzie Power Station Chimney Demolition, Edinburgh, Scotland

  192. gus1940 says:


    Where do you get 8 million Germans = 1 in 4?

    America – 2 million dead?

    Germany – Population – 78 Million – Miltary Dead – 3.25 Million, Civilians – 2.05 Million

    USA – Military Dead – 405,400

    Source – The World War II Data Book – Author – John Ellis.

  193. Louis.b.argyll says:

    Blatant ‘pro’ fear / ‘anti’ democracy report on CNN about Catalonia.

    From intro to end.. MASSIVE DEJA VU around the style, the scripted ‘interview’, the singular take on finances TRUMPING everything else.


  194. CameronB Brodie says:

    “I myself am convinced that the theory of evolution, especially to the extent to which it has been applied, will be one of the greatest jokes in the history books of the future. Posterity will marvel that so very flimsy and dubious an hypothesis could be accepted with the incredible credulity it has.” – Malcolm Muggeridge (left-wing BBC moralist and sex pest)

    I’m saying nowt. 😉

    Why do people sometimes seem so trusting as to be gullible? In the eighteenth century, the Scottish philosopher Thomas Reid suggested that humans have a natural propensity to be trusting

    Cutting down the dissonance: the psychology of gullibility
    While embracing a ban on H2O seems more foolish than dangerous, this anecdote shows how quickly people embrace some kinds of ideas without subjecting them to critical scrutiny. The human propensity to accept ideas at face value–no matter how illogical–is the fertile soil in which pseudoscience grows.

  195. Robert Peffers says:

    @manandboy says: 25 September, 2015 at 11:08 pm:

    ” … But I do think Better Together fooled the pensioners big time”.

    Nah! manandboy, as evidenced by the many pensioners on this forum, it is stupid to generalise a whole nations OAPs as a group.

    The truth staring all such blind prejudice in the face is that some pensioners fooled themselves bigtime.

    It seems less than self evident to some commenters here, that as Labour were the entrenched political force in Scotland, then the largest number of pensioners in Scotland have had to have been not only Labour Voters and supporters but actually were, and still are, the actual Labour in Scotland party.

    Kelty is a village and when I arrived here, (in 1962), I was one of perhaps four SNP voters. There were also few Tory or LibDems around but several communists who voted labour. Labour families ran Kelty.

    Alex Rowley MSP is a member of a family of long time Labour political figures and back then Labour ran Kelty, Fife and Scotland.

    It is thus obvious that, like myself, these people are still alive and still have their Labour Party entrenched backgrounds. It is not because they are old or pensioners they still vote Labour, it is because they ARE Labour.

    Thing is – not all old people were, or are, labour but simple arithmetic shows that when a countries political allegiance slowly changes it is in the oldest group you will still find the most remnants of the old order.

    It is futile to blame all OAPs as OAPs when the reason they still vote Labour is because they ARE Labour.

  196. louis.b.argyll says:

    We are on the brink, edging towards the POST-DUMB ERA.

    The powers-that-be hold all the cards.

    Most of us have seen their hand.

    They know they can’t win without CHEATING.

    So they are now playing their JOKERS.

    The jokers are cards of war, hate, greed and misery.

    We fear these because they can affect us without reason.

    If we take control, ‘DEMOCRACY’ GETS TO DO THE REASONING.

    But first we must keep alert, as ‘citizens’.

    We must win the basic game, to not lose by default, trickery or division.

  197. heedtracker says:

    WW1 and 2 were wars on the British empire. Nazi Germany and imperial Japan both wanted a British style empire but the nazi’s didn’t want to take much from the UK. Germany wanted to control Europe, annihilate and enslave communist Russia, or just do what the Brits had been doing round the since the day they defeated Bonny Prince Charlie at Culloden April 1746.

    If you ever go to Culloden, think about the history of the world that flipped that day into British world wide imperial and colonial rule, war, genocide, slavery, looting of other lands treasure. Or, white men with guns given all the blood thirsty power that imperialism imbues.

    The nazi’s planned England would fold under the Blitz, just like most of Europe, France, Belgium, Holland etc. England would be allowed to keep some of its old empire but if Russia hadn’t beaten Germany, the US hadn’t beaten Japan?

    Either way, the British empire is the root of WW1 and WW2. WW3 will at least be a lot shorter.

    Just ask everyone near Faslane, or everyone near and west of them in Scotland, from Wick to Berwick. UK strategic nuclear war planning Scotland, but nothing whatsoever to do with you because you voted NO.

  198. Tinto Chiel says:

    Thanks for that link to the fragrant Effie, Nana. Quite incredible.

    I know believe in a parallel universe.

    Sheer batshit zoomery, as our patron might say.

  199. Jack Murphy says:

    Leslet-Anne says on 25th September at 11:47pm:-
    “Interesting wee video about some wee unknown politician called Alex Salmond, whoever he is.”
    One I missed. Excellent balanced 1 hour programme from BBC Scotland!
    Well worth a view if you missed it.
    Programme Editor: Marcus Ryder
    Reporter:Brian Taylor
    Full marks for effort and content. Credit where credit’s due. 🙂

  200. Nana Smith says:

    @Tinto Chiel

    You are welcome, it fairly got me chortling this morning.

  201. Chic McGregor says:

    WWII plucky little Britain stands up to the Nazi menace and with some belated help from their American cousins, win the war.

    That is the propaganda myth and ridiculous as it is, many basically believe it.

    The truth is Hitler’s mistake was invading Russia.

    From that point on it became a German-Russian war with others as mere bit players or at best, waiting in the wings.

    You only need to look at the military casualties to see this. Germany had well over 80% of their total military losses on the Eastern front.

    When Russia started to break through the UK and USA went for a land grab to prevent Russia taking over the whole continent.

    The Eastern Front loss numbers dwarf those of the UK and USA. Even after D-Day UK and USA losses on the Western Front were still much much less than those on the Eastern Front during that period.

    Similarly, the Blitz needs to be put in context. Around 60,000 civilians were killed in the UK by German bombing whereas around 10 times that number were killed in Germany by allied bombing. Also War Cabinet papers released under FOI show that not only was there a deliberate policy to hit civilian residency areas in Germany but to target working class rather than middle class areas since they were more densely packed.

  202. Grouse Beater says:

    On another German issue – your weekend reading:

  203. heedtracker says:

    @ Nana Smith, so now its #SNP,Labour and Lib Dem out. Effiedeans is definitely a plant, an aspidistra maybe. Should be fun watching her merry band of reasonably scary unionist lunatics piling into this new UKOK bandwagon over a cliff.

  204. heedtracker says:

    Trolling through rancid olde The Graun’s ignoring Scottish women in everything not just politics section, there’s nothing expect Sturgeon bad, Mhairi Black badder etc, so going all the way back to the last millennium, this is fun from these grotesque hypocrites-

    Bomber Bliar and Crash Broon turned out to be just same old male sexist pigs(entirely unrelated to PM Cammers) over their giant vote Blair’s Babes 97′ con, so-

    “Nor has there been any sign of a new political spirit in the election campaigns: the party machines remain male-dominated and they have never been shy of gloves-off tactics. This election has been hard fought in the old tradition, but though Scotland’s aspirant women politicians agree the campaign has been indistinguishable in tone from any other, they insist there is still hope that the parliament will conduct its business in a different, more feminised style. ‘For one thing,’

    Wendy Alexander says, ‘no one party is going to have an overall majority.

    That changes things right away.’ Nicola Sturgeon, a 28-year-old lawyer who is fighting the target seat of Govan for the SNP, agrees. ‘I know it hasn’t changed things at Westminster, but the fact is that the Scottish parliament will have to function with coalition politics and that will change things. It’s true that women who have been reared in the old confrontational style are likely to remain confrontational, just as they have at Westminster, but many of the women standing are non-Westminster women.’

    What other effects such a seismic shift in the composition of power might have remains to be seen, but it seems highly likely at least that it will trigger a profound change in women’s expectations and aspirations. ‘The question of role models matters,’ Sturgeon says. ‘I often talk to younger women who say that there are no women in politics, so politics is not for them. That is bound to change.’

    Whatever became of that 28 year old lawyer:D

  205. cirsium says:

    @Ken500, 10.29am

    Ken – Prussian militarism not European Royal Families was the root cause of WW1. Here is an extract of an essay written in 1912 by Prince Eulenberg, a disgraced favourite of Wilhelm II, which encapsulates the attitude of the Second Reich

    “And why not war? We Prussians are accustomed to it. Our recent history, which is still fresh in everyone’s mind, demonstrates the advancement of the State through war and the use of force. We have not fared too badly by using these methods..For opportunistic reasons we have falsified history, we have written the words “German loyalty”, “German truth”, “the German temperament” on every street corner and have hidden our carefully laid plans for war behind them.

    In this sense, however, we have always remained true to ourselves, following in the footsteps of Frederick the Great who, through his troops were already on the march to Silesia, wrote to the Empress Maria Theresa that “he valued peace above all things and would not dream of beginning a war”. In the footsteps of Bismarck, who managed to persuade the German people in 1870 that they have been too deeply humiliated by France not to draw the sword.

    Only we never pursued this course honestly. Honestly like Napoleon who never denied that he was striving for world domination! Honestly like the English who took whatever they wanted without asking.

    Therefore war. If we succeed – tant mieux. Then we can become pour de bon a military state and organise and rule the conquered lands with a firm military hand. Arm in order to conquer. Honestly and ruthlessly.”

  206. Effijy says:

    Over 25% of “British” casualties in world war 1 where Scottish.

    The English Generals classed the Scots as cannon fodder who
    could be used to soak up the enemy bullets before Johnny English
    move in claim victory.

    Can anyone recall Scotland having as much as 10% of UK population?

  207. Grouse Beater says:

    Let Taffy, Jock, and Paddy never forget:

    “A corner of a foreign field that is forever England.”

  208. Ken500 says:

    Inter-dependent Treaties of the (mainly unelected) European Royal families. All inbred cousins. It was the (absolute) Russian Czar who invaded Germany (cousin Wilheim) and was getting beat. German cousin Wilheim and British monarch (look it up) were trying to talk Czar out of it. Russian revolution etc. Czar killed.

    The mainly unelected inbred European Royals caused the 1WW. The Czar was killed etc, but Millions died. Now it is celebrated throughout Europe on a bunch of lies. The Royals descendent tip toe through poppies to protect their £400Millions a year, and people buy the poppies while Westminster and the Royals trough on £Billions a year life of luxury while killing innocent, vulnerable people at home and abroad. Royals who should be impartial are involved in Illegal wars and interfering in the political system, to protect the inheritance. It’s a farce.

    They should, shut up, slim down or bow out. No one elected them.

  209. Ken500 says:

    It was the Czar (Nicholas 11) who invaded cousin Wilheim and was getting beat. The other Royal cousins were trying to talk the Czar out of it. Then the Russian Revolution caused by Nicholas’s intransigence. European revisionist history.

    Interdependent Treaties. Look it up. Britain & France Alliance. Treaty with Russian. Russian Japanese War on one side.

  210. Ken500 says:

    German pop 80 million in 1939? (Increased?) Population is 80Million now. 6million dead in Europe? How many in Far East?

  211. Ken500 says:

    German dictatorship did start 11WW by invading Poland, but Poland was handed over to Russian dominance as a barrier against German (invasion?) at Yalta by the Allies. Churchill & Stalin. Worthless War were Millions died. Europe was starving. Marshall Plan (paid back) Gernmany was not allowed to rearm (increased wealth). ECC to stop starvation in Europe. The Arms Race Russia & US (was bankrupting both countries) State of Israel (7Million immigrants & refugees supported by US,Fance& UK. Illegal Wars and invasions of the Middle East. War, war war. The bay of pigs. Oink. oink. A security threat.

  212. Ken500 says:

    In Germany (dictatorship no universal suffrage – woman etc not allowed to vote. They can now) census in 1939 many Poles gave their nationality as German (20 Million Poles?) 8 million Germans + 6Million Poles died in 11WW = 14Million of 80Million = more 1 in 6+

    A lot of People – Millions of People.

  213. yesindyref2 says:

    Sunday Politics.

    Brewer: “Ian, would you vote for xxx if Dugdale asked you to?”

    Ian: “Yes we should have that debate”

    Brewer: “But Ian, how would you vote on xxx?”

    Ian: “We would have that debate, I would talk to people”.

    Brewer: “But Ian, how would you vote on xxx?”

    Ian: “Well I’m at the conference Westminster as you know isn’t sitting”

    Brewer: “But Ian, how would …”

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