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Tory leadership update

Posted on June 03, 2019 by

We suspect we might be running quite a few of these.

So there’s last August.

But then there was last December:

But then, shock double-twist!

Tune in tomorrow, readers, or possibly later this afternoon, to find out whether Jeremy Hunt has always been at war with Eurasia or Eastasia.

[EDIT 1.06pm. The line above was a joke, but two hours later:]

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    505 to “Tory leadership update”

    1. Malc says:

      He’s been at war with Euthanasia. Sadly he’s winning.

    2. @nairnkev says:

      The two cheeks o the same erse.

    3. Legerwood says:

      It seems that he has changed again.

      According to a report in the Guardian online today he, Hunt, would back a no-deal Brexit with a heavy heart.

      https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2019/jun/03/jeremy-hunt-would-back-no-deal-brexit-with-heavy-heart

    4. Marie Clark says:

      Jeex oh, these bloomin tories hae mae faces than the toon clock, an mair positions than the kama sutra.

      Always remember folk, never ever trust a tory.

    5. Marie Clark says:

      oops, sorry for the typo , mair not mae.

    6. fillofficer says:

      i will never understand how these nuggets get away with it.
      goes mostly unchallenged.
      MSM are complicit & equally responsible for the state we are in.
      couldn’t imagine scotgov getting away with such flip-flopping drivel.
      hope the public are paying attention but i suspect they are focussing on the squirrels, sadly

    7. geeo says:

      He was on Sky news earlier, simpering over Trump’s state visit. It doesnt matter about the racism, the sexism, him proving he will 100% put America first in any trade talks, etc, no no siree, we should love him coz he is meeting the queen you know..!

    8. call me dave says:

      Gives all those called Jeremy a bad name….. Oh wait!

      @Marie Clark

      8 positions X 8 variations = 64.

      Heard it last night on radio 4 extra. Paul Sinha from the Chase says.

      Honest! 🙁

    9. MajorBloodnok says:

      It’s almost like they’ll say anything to get elected.

    10. Dave tewart says:

      Poor sod

      He shouldn’t have crossed the border and visited Culloden.
      He’s caught the dreaded Untruthful Davidson disease, wonder if we should tell him that there’s no known cure and it’s recurring.
      Perhaps Ann Widdecome will be able to apply some scientific resources from the Brexit Ltd funds to help him out.
      Even Boris may have caught it.
      In the clip, Johnson says: “Donald Trump’s ill-informed comments are complete and utter nonsense. I think he’s betraying a quite stupefying ignorance that makes him frankly unfit to hold the office of President of the United States.

      “I think Donald Trump is clearly out of his mind if he thinks that’s a sensible way to proceed, to ban people going to the United States in that way, or to any country.

      “I would invite him to come and see the whole of London and take him round the city but I don’t want to expose Londoners to the risk to any unnecessary risk of meeting Donald Trump

      Dunning- Kruger effect.

    11. galamcennalath says:

      The twists and turns may mean he recognises the massive dilemma the situation presents. There are only three possible outcomes to Brexit, and they aren’t mutually exclusive …

      – widespread long term damage to the UK economy
      – the disintegration of the UK
      – the permanent destruction of the Conservative party

      … makes me wonder why so many of them want the job!

    12. call me dave says:

      News of a sort.

      George Galloway sacked by talk RADIO over allegedly anti-Semitic tweet. Footie/Spurs.

    13. Dr Jim says:

      Very telling that when the UK of England puts on its displays of pomp and circumstance and militarism for visiting dignitaries that it always without exception displays who they believed they historically *used* to be when they were an Empire and not what they are today

      As much red red and red as they can possibly manufacture military uniforms for, and polish for 100 year old guns

    14. Effijy says:

      I say again that Trump and the American Corporations clearly see
      the UK as a weak animal separated from the pack and easy pickings.

      The Tories are desperate to present anything as a Trade Deal to partially replace EU membership.

      No need to use these terms but the interpenetration of a US trade deal will allow Chlorinated Chicken, Steroid Beef, NHS Contract access, and Zero Hours contracts with no rights or privileges.

      Do you think Trump has the capability to remember that every UK Politician asked thought he would lose the US Election to Clinton and put forward that he was a Joke candidate?

      On a bright note, Trump has sacked so many politicians that Mrs Mayhem might well get kicked out today.
      Gives his pal Boris an opening.

    15. Republicofscotland says:

      God help us whoever becomes the British PM.

      Meanwhile George Galloway sacked by TalkRadio, over alleged anti-Semitic comments.

    16. Breeks says:

      I think Hunt has already met his Waterloo at Culloden.

    17. Marie Clark says:

      call me dave @ 12.16, Aye I believe you.

    18. Bob Mack says:

      Donald Trump cannot give a trade deal. It has to be ratified by both the House of Representatives and the Senate since 2007.Trying to position yourself next to Trump is a waste of time.

      Nancy Pelosi whose Democrats have the majority in the House of Representatives has made it very very clear that there will be no trade deal if the Good Friday Agreement is not honoured in full.

      Hunt must know this too. This is another example of the idiocy which is currently in charge of the UK. They are like the ball bearing in a game of pin ball, hurtling around trying to score points , randomly bouncing one way then the other. They get no prizes for high scores I’m afraid.

    19. Clootie says:

      Why are we still in this Union???

    20. What is anti semitism ??? If you state that the Jews killing the Palestinians and stealing their land is wrong is that anti semitism ??? Of course it is wrong no matter who is doing it ,it seems you must not say anything about Israel imagine if we had taken the same view about Nazi Germany I.e. Said and done nothing about the things they were doing to the Jews where would the Jewish people be today ??? Wrong is Wrong and to say nothing is to condone what is going on

    21. handclapping says:

      I read Clootie as
      Why are we still in this Unicorn???
      Both readings are valid

    22. winifred mccartney says:

      Ruthies truthless disease must be catching – although the tories have always had it – principals – what principals – I have plenty more.

      Even the dear old Jeremy – CND for all his life – then in a position of power to actually do something labour votes through the renewal of trident.

      What is it with these people in power – have they have lost their moral compass and gained a lust for power itself.

      As for Trump the American ambassador yesterday said for any trade deal everything would have to be on the table including health care – and we have people tripping over themselves to get his approval. We can respect the office of President but never this present president who bought the job with cash and lies, whipped up hatred and yet many were taken in by him. And that is before we even consider what he is doing in the Middle East.

    23. mike cassidy says:

      If you have a strong stomach

      Jeremy Hunt doing his lickspittle best in an interview with CBS news.

      http://archive.is/PkyVS

      He also indulged in a bit of trumpet-blowing in the Telegraph on Saturday – but the text of that’s not fully available.

      Be thankful!

      Brexit Britain’s destiny is to walk tall in the world

      http://archive.is/fMUP7

    24. galamcennalath says:

      Here’s a theory. Some of them only want to be seen to stand, to get the publicity, have their say, and for some their face better known. Some of the candidates are actually setting themselves up to be the replacement for one who does draw the short straw! Only the most stupid would actually want the poisoned chalice!

      There is no good outcome, from a Tory perspective. I’m not saying they all accept that, some will be deluded enough to believe the ‘no deal’ is OK, or a renegotiation with the EU is possible guff. Some will also totally over estimate their own capabilities, no doubt.

      Surely some of them know this is a lose-lose-lose role at the moment?

    25. Pete says:

      Don’t quite get all the vilification of Trump and free trade deals with the USA.
      Just back from the US where I’ve been going for years and the country is booming.
      Never seen so much construction going on. Housing, shopping malls, infrastructure. Boom, boom boom.
      His tax cuts have really got everyone buzzing and at all levels. Unemployment is at an all time low.
      Unlike Derek Mackay, he understands the Laffer principle whereby lower tax rates produce more revenue.
      Food standards in the US are top class and the choice and quality is amazing.
      If you don’t want chlorinated chicken, no one will force you to buy it – it’ll be labelled.
      The NHS will still be free at the point of delivery. If some of the providers are private – so what?
      GP’s are private contractors. Nobody seems to complain about that.
      So much nonsense is spouted by so many who know so little.

    26. HandandShrimp says:

      I am bemused by the utter tangle of knots Labour and the left has found itself in over accusations over anti-Semitic behaviour/thought crimes. It was only 4 years ago the party leader was Jewish. What has changed? Willsden espoused a conspiracy by a right wing Israeli government to ensure that an unsympathetic left wing leader in another country is undermined. Now to believe such an organised move against Corbyn has taken place might well be paranoia but is anti-Semitic? We are happy to believe Russia or China would do such a thing (and probably the US) is it then anti-Semitic to suggest the Israeli government moves to protect its interests?

      Anti-Semitic people exist. That is a fact. The National Front used to be full of them. However, I don’t recall Labour people being like that in my day. Yes, the cause of the Palestinian people and leftist politics generally was championed but no one questioned Israel’s right to exist. Unless things have gone very strange in the last couple of years I find it hard to believe that there is a problem on the scale being pushed by the press and lobbying interests. Most of these people have been in Labour for decades although I concede I don’t know much about Momentum but as far as I can see most of the accused are crusty old left wingers not recent members.

      However, in light of the feeding frenzy, George’s tweet looks ill considered…or a ploy to have a day in court at talk radio’s expense.

    27. Bob Mack says:

      @Pete,

      And if your chlorinated chicken and hormone filled beef is served by a restaurant or fast food shop?

      I’m sure they will tell you beforehand.

    28. mike cassidy says:

      America’s infrastructure is decaying — here’s a look at how terrible things have gotten

      http://archive.is/wXThx

    29. HandandShrimp says:

      Pete

      If Mackay doesn’t understand the Laffer curve why is Scottish unemployment at an all-time low and lower than the rest of the UK and the US (3.2% as opposed to 3.6%)?

      I’m not convinced the current situation has much to do with either US or UK Government policies and has rather more to do with the cyclic nature of capitalism. It will bust again and we will blame politicians but in truth they will be as culpable as they were for the low unemployment.

      I trust growth hormone beef and chlorinated chicken will be clearly labelled because I won’t be buying it. As to creeping privatisation of the NHS. It is boiling frog syndrome and the big money that is really interested are the insurance companies.

    30. David P says:

      My guess is that “the Hunt” was expecting “Culloden” to have the same U-English affection as “Cadogan” in London, England.

      ca-DUH-guhn
      Cu-LUH-duhn

      After all, what do we in Scotland know about the pronunciation of our own towns, compared to our “imperial masters”?

      See also: “Greh-nock”, “Kir-kahl-dy”, etc, etc…

    31. galamcennalath says:

      Pete says:

      Food standards in the US are top class and the choice and quality is amazing.

      You see food from all over the world in our supermarkets, but rarely from the US. Why? Because by our current regulations it is mostly unfit for human consumption. Their food production standards and animal welfare rules are primative.

      http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gAMpJ9Yr56Y

      Like many people I’ve obviously eaten their food while on a trip to the US. However, there is no way I’d want to consume it regularly.

    32. Doug says:

      No deal no real. The end of boom and bust. No slate for the 51st state. Trickle down that.

      Scotland has to save itself, and soon.

    33. Clootie says:

      @Blair Paterson

      “By 1948 the British situation in Palestine, which Britain ruled under a mandate confirmed by the League of Nations in 1922, had become so impossible that the British government washed its hands of the whole Jewish-Arab imbroglio, gave up the mandate and announced that it would formally withdraw from the country at midnight on May 14th.1948”

      At that time both Jews and Arabs lived in the country. Several of the surrounding Arab Nations attacked the next day. Several countries supplied weapons to the Jewish communities for defence.

      You cannot ignore the post WW11 events relating to the deaths of several million Jews.

      Regardless of how people may wish to blame one side or the other for the current situation the reality is the British walked away and once again left division behind.

      One thing I am sure of it will not be solved by ignoring History as with Northern Ireland both sides need to move on.

      Remember the British wanted to hold it and fed the division and simply walked away leaving a void. I think they have done that many times. I think they are still doing it (Lybia).

    34. Pete says:

      Again lots of nonsense talked about the NHS.
      Look at Ireland, Nicola’s new best pal, where you have to make part payments every time you visit the GP, go to A&E or stay in hospital.
      She never talks about those ‘progressive’ policies.
      We need to have a new look at the NHS and look at the whole system as it can’t continue as it currently is set up, bearing in mind demographics and the higher than inflation costs in that industry.

    35. HandandShrimp says:

      Pete,

      It seems to me that it wouldn’t take much before you are espousing a US style insurance health care system. I’m not convinced that is what people want but no doubt it is one that a couple of the Tory candidates favour…and of course Niggle Fandango.

    36. galamcennalath says:

      Clootie says:

      At that time both Jews and Arabs lived in the country.

      Yes, by 1948. Have a look at this graph.

      https://tinyurl.com/y32ddhfa

      The UK largely created the Jewish pre-1948 presence during the Mandate period. It was foreign policy to build up a European community in the heart of the Middle East.

      They certainly succeeded because there is a strong Western enclave in the ME now in the shape of Israel. Good, bad, fair, unjust … that’s a different minefield.

    37. John Alexander Ferguson says:

      This clown and his friends are the people who can commit us to war. If you thought George W was bad, we have his clones in multiple. We should be scared.

    38. A C Bruce says:

      “So much nonsense is spouted by so many who know so little.” Yeah, by you.

      Went to the poor areas did you? There are areas in the US which look like a third world country, where people don’t have jobs and no hope of getting one, where they are, in fact, forgotten. They can’t therefore access health care nor health insurance.

      It is a country which throws people out in the street in their hospital gown because the hospital find they can’t pay for treatment.

      Where a woman, after an accident at a train station, begged passers-by not to phone for an ambulance for her because it would cost $1,000 just to get taken to A and E at the local hospital and she couldn’t afford it.

      Where insulin costs so much it can run to millions of dollars over a life time of someone who is a Type 1 diabetic.

      The land of milk and honey right enough.

    39. Pete says:

      Hand And Shrimp
      I’m not advocating a US system.
      There are quite a few systems within Europe which are a half way house between our ‘everything free’ way of doing things and an insurance based US system.
      Our system doesn’t encourage self help enough and if we had a system of small charges at the point of usage, as in most other countries, this would help to discourage frivolous appointments.
      Our dental and eye care systems seem to work quite well and nobody seems to bother too much about paying part of the costs.

    40. Dorothy Devine says:

      ‘frivolous appointments’ ha! ha! ha!

      I doubt anyone ever has had a frivolous dental or eye care appointment.

      Go get raffled sunshine.

    41. kapelmeister says:

      Janusy Hunt.

    42. galamcennalath says:

      A C Bruce says:

      There are areas in the US which look like a third world country

      Indeed. I have heard the US described as the richest third world country. As far as I understand a quarter of the population have no real access to healthcare. Millions of Americans are only one serious accident or illness away from bankruptcy, destitution, and homelessness.

      Some have a great life, but in truth it’s bought at others expense. The rich are only so rich because the poor are so miserable.

      Already, the UK has among the worst inequality in Europe. Scotland needs to reverse the trend not make it worse.

    43. Scott says:

      Remember This.

      Saudi Arabia: Journalist Jamal Khashoggi killed at consulate in Turkey

      What Hunt had to say.

      BREAKING: UK Foreign Sec Jeremy Hunt on Saudi Arabia “If these allegations are true, there will be serious consequences because our friendships and our partnerships are based on shared values.

      I just wonder what shared values he meant.He is Tory not to be trusted and what he did as Health Secretary.

      Health Secretary Jeremy Hunt is selling off NHS firm which saves taxpayer £70m a year

      Doctors slammed move as ‘utterly ludicrous’

    44. Mike cassidy says:

      Don’t know who was just being interviewed by BBC news

      But he just said the Queen and trump have a lot on common

      Both having Scottish mothers and both owning large chunks of Scotland.

    45. Welsh Sion says:

      Bob Mack @ 1:20pm

      They are like the ball bearing in a game of pin ball, hurtling around trying to score points , randomly bouncing one way then the other.
      ______

      Very apt. Their supporters are natural flippers.

    46. mumsyhugs says:

      “Hmmmm – maybes aye, maybes naw.”

    47. Robert Peffers says:

      @Clootie says: 3 June, 2019 at 1:24 pm:

      … Why are we still in this Union???”

      For the very same reason that we got into it in the first place.

      Greed, self interest and a paircil o tracterous rogues.

      Mind you they rogues hae been whittle doon a puckle no say afu lang syne.

    48. Robert Peffers says:

      @winifred mccartney says: 3 June, 2019 at 1:45 pm:

      … this present president who bought the job with cash and lies, whipped up hatred and yet many were taken in by him. And that is before we even consider what he is doing in the Middle East.”

      Not to mention what he is doing on the USA/Mexican Border where he steals little children from their parents and cages them like wild animals.

    49. Effijy says:

      Pete says:
      3 June, 2019 at 2:00 pm
      Don’t quite get all the vilification of Trump and free trade deals with the USA.

      Could I enquire if you were in Disneyland on your US trip?

      Sure America is booming and anyone could do it by totally ignoring
      The environment and the future of the planet.

      Jobs a plenty with Fracking, just poisoned drinking supplies, earth quakes,
      The cancers it has caused all need private medical insurances, doctors, drugs, hospitals and nurses.

      CO 2 emissions plastics into the sea they have all been declared Fake news by Pres Trump.

      At the moment tearing up trade deals helps create jobs but just in a little while you will see
      Embargo’s on US products and then there go the jobs again

    50. Robert Peffers says:

      @Pete says: 3 June, 2019 at 2:00 pm:

      ” … Yes, Pete, and that is just exactly how it was just before the USA led the World into, “The Great Depression”,, (1929 to 1939), which also contributed greatly to WWII. Then it was exactly how it was in the USA just before the recent banking collapse that much of the World is still attempting to recover from.

      So yes, Trump understands all right and he doesn’t care for the same reasons the dynastic banking families didn’t care before the fast two financial crisis – it’s known as, I’m all right Jack and stuff you.
      Just back from the US where I’ve been going for years and the country is booming.
      Never seen so much construction going on. Housing, shopping malls, infrastructure. Boom, boom boom.
      His tax cuts have really got everyone buzzing and at all levels. Unemployment is at an all time low.
      Unlike Derek Mackay, he understands the Laffer principle whereby lower tax rates produce more revenue.
      Food standards in the US are top class and the choice and quality is amazing.
      If you don’t want chlorinated chicken, no one will force you to buy it – it’ll be labelled.
      The NHS will still be free at the point of delivery. If some of the providers are private – so what?
      GP’s are private contractors. Nobody seems to complain about th

    51. orri says:

      Free at the point of use with private contractors taking a cut isn’t always the most economical way to do things. In fact it’s a tory’s wet dream as it allows them to tie the public into paying private enterprise who then skim of profits. It’s be PFI on an industrial scale. Especially if triage decisions are made on profit rather than urgency.

      Think about the EU ferry contract to a firm who obviously thought they could hire ships if needed but the bidding was contrary to law and cost us millions. Think of the same kind of chancers supplying services to the NHS.

    52. Clapper57 says:

      Jeremy Hunt quoting Culloden in the video that he made while in Scotland…that was 100% trolling…no way did the person who wrote his little spiel NOT realise the insensitivity or significance of mentioning Culloden..or indeed would he himself not realise…..using Culloden as reference to Scots while in Scotland…in the context of a……pro Brexit message.

      This is what they, the Tories, from HQ party (aided by their ("Quizmaster" - Ed) MP members from Scotland) , do to Scots..a cheap and nasty jibe in the context of accepting nay embracing Brexit…directed at a country whose majority voted Remain…shut up and put up Jocks is the underlining message..with a side of snide referencing a la Butcher Cumberland style..not the sausage…and not easily digested by a Scot…..another recipe for disaster from another Tory leader wannabe…understandable to easily replace the ‘H’ in his surname with a ‘C’….is it not.

      Calling him an arse does not do him justice….like all the other Tory leader wannabees….there is no hole big enough for their collective gaffe ridden egos to fit into….not even Cyril Smith’s humongous arse would suffice.

      BTW did he get PermissionFromSajid to make this speech in Edinburgh to the Scots ?

    53. Clapper57 says:

      My previous comment at 4.23pm ..should be Quislings not Quizmaster Lol….Ed…Lol.

    54. kapelmeister says:

      The SNP are reporting that Alyn Smith is on course to be the new President of the European Free Alliance group at Strasbourg. The Greens and their EFA allies hold the balance of power in the new parliament. Useful for Scotland.

    55. Iain 2 says:

      The thing about a soon to be a normal country that Scotland will soon be is that they set how much is spent on their health service, not a nearby country.

    56. Clootie says:

      @galamcennalath

      I fully agree with your description of the early 20th. Century build up. However like the Plantation of Ireland it does not solve the debate. Protestants moved in and displaced Catholics.

      The Empire did it with India ( Hindi/ Muslim). India and East & West Pakistan.

      The even tried it with Australia setting up and recognising States instead of a country pre Independence. (The Aboriginal people had no say!)

      Unfortunately many people want a simple Good Guy/Bad Guy argument. I don’t like the way people are suffering. However I dislike the previous treatment of all the aboriginal peoples around the World and they won’t be getting their land back.

      I look at a Wall build in N/Ireland during the troubles and a Wall in Palestine and they look identical to me. I see the same solution – talking not killing

    57. Iain mhor says:

      Haha aye its nae bother a £200 bill for a root canal, lose that kind of money down the back of the settee and don’t bother looking for it. My fault, I should have had dental insurance. The one with the sliding scale of cover.
      In fact come to think of it, I should have health insurance as well. Everyone should, except the poor though, they can’t afford that. Maybe they could get basic healthcare funded by the taxpayer. Obviously, not top notch healthcare, my taxes shouldn’t be paying for workshy layabouts poaching the good health professionals I’m paying for – a couple of cooncil hospitals at the most will do them. They get plenty in benefits anyway, should be buying their own healthcare. If they keep wasting their money on rubbish, maybe it would be better to give them food and clothing coupons instead.
      Makes sense.

      ‘Murica – hell yeah!

    58. Robert Peffers says:

      @Pete says:3 June, 2019 at 2:59 pm:

      Jings! Pete. Could you be more wrong?

      This video was made 7 months ago in Los Angeles – one of The USA’s most wealthy cities and home of many of the best known to the World USA citizens many of them billionaires and millionaires:-

      http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vc7-w4szWoQ&t=52s

      Go watch it – It’s only 7 months old – when was your last visit in the USA? Do you perhaps think this just began 7 months ago?

      Here’s another question for you – have you ever heard of Slab City, California? Perhaps you missed that on your visits.

      http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0vVCSUafFVI&t=615s

      There is no mains electricity, mains water or sewerage pipes in Slab City and no fire service, ambulance service or police service. Believe it or not it belongs officially to the government.

      Yeah! The USA is booming.

    59. Josef Ó Luain says:

      @ Pete

      I remember reading similar stuff to yours in the early-eighties and how the Tories and later Labour internalised it all. It’s ideology you’re spouting, Pete, that’s all. If you live in Scotland you must know where that ideology has taken us thus far – food banks, low wages, high rents, socialism for the rich, a busted political system and free-passes for the criminals in the City of London. No thanks, Pete, things are shit as they are without old-man Hayek’s disciples making it even worse.

    60. Gary says:

      Well, weirdly, he’s right.

      During negotiations they HAD to be willing (or LOOK like they were) to walk away had they not gotten the deal they wanted. In that case he had to put forward the view, as though he believed it, that ‘No Deal’ was just ‘super’

      Having now done (part) of the deal he can say differently. Although the important part of the deal has NOT been done yet so his current pronouncements are just him shooting himself in the foot!

      Of course none of them know what they’re doing and add to that they will say whatever they think people want to hear to be elected leader so…yeh, there’s that.

      The only thing worse that Jeremy Hunt running the NHS would be Hunt as PM. He always came across as someone who was trying his best to appear human but failing dismally…

    61. mogabee says:

      Is our health Service unsustainable?

      Looks like some arsehole thinks it is, imagine…

    62. manandboy says:

      In 20 days time, it will be three years since EU Ref 2016, throughout which time Brexit has caused the UK to jump from a plane in a slow-motion freefall, with a ‘chute that refuses to open.
      And because we haven’t smashed into the ground yet, the English in particular, are hoping and imagining and fantasising that something will turn up. For the Tories, it’s a new leader, for the Lib Dems it’s Jo Swinson, while for Nigel Farage, well, Nige is still just fantasising that he will sprout a pair of wings and just fly off into a new Imperial Supremacist No Deal Dawn.

      Meanwhile, in Scotland, half the population know exactly what to do, while the Scot-British Nationalists in their brainwashed state of political anesthesia, remain only vaguely aware of what is happening to their beloved Union.

      Actually, despite growing frustration and impatience, I’ll take Indy in slow motion if that’s how it’s going to be. Better late than never.

    63. Clootie says:

      NHS should be protected as should free education and pensions

      What should not be protected are WMD/ Astute Class Submarines/ Aircraft Carriers/ Bankers/ Tax avoidance/ etc etc

      We are not going to be a mini UK. That is why the dark money is behind the Tories./ Brexit Party/ UKIP.

      We have plenty of money for the first line. It is being stolen by the next two lines.

    64. Welsh Sion says:

      kapellmeister @ 4.35 pm

      Good luck to Alyn Smith (and Scotland). Jill Evans MEP, Plaid Cymru, is also in that group. good news for Cymru, too!

      Double scotch all round, perhaps!

    65. Liz g says:

      Pets @ 2.24
      You say that the current NHS can’t continue?
      Why Not?
      We are the tax payers and if we want the current NHS as a priority for Holyrood then that’s what they have to do.
      This “it’s unaffordable” trope is nonsense.
      It is as affordable as the people want it to be,we are a first world Country and mair tae the point….
      Scotland is a rich country and if we want our money spent on health care then that’s what we shall have!
      It’s really only a matter of bringing the Government within slapping distance and telling them to fund health care first or they will getting that slap,shortly before they are replaced with a government who will…. Simple really…..

    66. twathater says:

      As for the US health service , I remember a tv programme I saw a couple of years ago where a dollar multi millionaire was interviewed , his wife was discovered to be suffering from terminal cancer and in order to make her last days more comfortable paid all medical costs , there were complications with their medical insurance , not sure what the problems were , but at the end of the interview the man said that his wife had passed away and he was basically bankrupt , ALL his wealth had been used for medical bills to ease her suffering

      So Pete our SNHS may not be perfect but as one who has had to use it occasionally for major issues , you and anyone else like nigella farago can take a flying fcuk at involving the US health vultures

      And all these brexshit imperialists ( especially the older white cliffs of Dover exceptionalist fantasists ) will rue the day they heard of fandango nigella

    67. stewartb says:

      Some over-simplistic views in today’s thread on Trump’s fiscal policy and uncritical adherence to the Laffer principle. It’s surprising that such views – and their implications for ‘trickle down economics’ – still find a place here after having been shown to be at the very least ‘problematic’ if not plain wrong. So this from US/international commentaries on the US economy is for balance.

      Source: https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2018-12-13/trump-s-tax-cuts-had-an-impact-but-not-the-one-backers-hoped-for

      “Trump and his backers in Congress promised tax cuts would boost the long-term growth potential of the U.S. economy. The data so far don’t support that claim.”

      And: “One of the most easily disproved claims Trump made about his tax cut plan is that it wouldn’t swell the budget deficit: As a share of gross domestic product, the deficit rose to 4 percent in October (2018), up from 3.4 percent in October 2017 and 2.6 percent in October 2016.”

      Over recent years the state of Kansas has provided a notable economic case study of the effects of adherence to Laffer’s principle and the actions of ‘trickle down’ believers.

      Source: https://www.washingtonpost.com/opinions/trickle-down-economics-is-a-nightmare-kansas-proved-it/2017/06/12/c2d7aae0-4fa6-11e7-91eb-9611861a988f_story.html?noredirect=on&utm_term=.a944ec38c9a5

      “For five years, Kansas’s Republican governor, Sam Brownback, conducted the nation’s most radical exercise in trickle-down economics — a “real-live experiment,” he called it. He and the GOP-controlled legislature slashed the state’s already-low tax rates, eliminated state income tax for most owner-operated businesses and sharply reduced vital government services. These measures were supposed to deliver “a shot of adrenaline into the heart of the Kansas economy,” Brownback said.”

      But as this Washington Post article argues: “It never works. Republicans cannot point to an instance in which this prescription has led to the promised Valhalla of skyrocketing growth. Before Kansas, they could at least argue that the program had only been attempted partially and piecemeal, never in full and unadulterated form. After Kansas, that excuse is gone.”

      “Eliminating business income taxes for owner-operated companies was supposed to induce entrepreneurs to move to Kansas from other states. It didn’t. It turned out that business owners take more than taxes into account when they decide where to locate. They want good health care and first-rate schools for themselves and their employees. They want modern, well-maintained infrastructure. In short, they want a healthy, functioning public sector.”

      “It also turns out that business owners do not decide whether to expand capacity or add employees based solely on the tax rate they must pay. Much more important is whether there is enough demand to justify such growth. If there is not — and the Kansas economy under Brownback was woefully sluggish — then tax savings will not be put to productive use.”

    68. donnywho says:

      OMG a Chelsea pensioner wins BGT. Singing on a bed of poppy leaves with a cohort of fellow pensioners at attention in support. A backdrop of falling poppy petals and war photos, the crowd interspersed with serving soldiers in full regimental kit saluting their hero. At the last moment a Union Jack ?? flutters!

      The crowd goes mad waving Led poppies and joining out proud troops in a standing ovation.

      Thank god we live in a democracy and are never subjected to staged propaganda like North Korea!

      NOT!!!

    69. Robert Thomas says:

      In the case of Jeremy Hunt, Tory MP, Golden Rule #2 applies when he, and all Tories in or out of public office, speak ‘words’; in person, recorded, filmed or written in Newspapers or Books!

      Never forget this Rule and make sure you teach your children!
      (Yes, you can sing the old song if you like! LOL!)

      But Never Forget:

      Golden Rule#2: “Tories ALWAYS lie!”

    70. twathater says:

      Rob P just watched your first video on yatube, yes Pete that’s what you and the current political classes in englandshire want Scotland to look like

      Never forget the destruction of the NHS by thatcher and her scum cohorts , the closure of all the social medical care centres and facilities , CARE IN THE COMMUNITY PISH just to sell these grounds and hospitals to developers and tory backers , now THE COUNTRY is facing the repercussions of her actions

    71. kapelmeister says:

      donnywho@5:37

      Apparently the Chelsea Pensioner guy got 25.3% of the vote in the BGT final.

      So the SNP easily outpolled him.

    72. CameronB Brodie says:

      How can this man be trusted with legal matters and a duty of care to the public? He can’t and is not worthy of high office. Very few of them are in Westminster, IMHO.

      #DissolveTheUnion

    73. Dr Jim says:

      Not content with the results of continually frothing at the mouth with his SNP bad mantra David Mundell has now decided it’s the fault of the entire Scottish parliament for allowing the SNP to keep on winning

      You don’t have to be a political genius to work out what he’s hoping that leads to even though his own son is part of the failure he says the Scottish parliament is

      And as we look on the Scotland office keeps getting bigger

    74. Confused says:

      during the candidates debates, donald trump was questioned on “single payer healthcare” i.e. an NHS similar to canada and the UK
      – he said “it can work extremely well, like in SCAATLAAN”

      he then put the impracticality on the actions of the insurance companies and individual peculiarities of state law

      like a lot of what trump says, this was never reported

      the US healthcare system is about the worst you can possibly get – custom designed to make doctors and insurance companies extremely rich

      – hospitals are always trying to sell you the most expensive treatment
      – insurance company lawyers are trying to stop you getting any at all
      – it systematically overcharges for everything, then bankrupts you at the end, for an extra 6 months of painful misery

      I know a couple of middling-rich americans – they DO NOT use the US healthcare system (for they would no longer be “middling rich”)
      – one goes once a year to singapore for a full medical, whole body scan, all the tests, gets his prescriptions
      – another went to switzerland, zurich for treatment for a brain tumour, top clinic, top guy – successfully done for $40K, which he regarded as a “bargain” as in the US it would be $250K and up, up, up …

      overall, the US is heading for banana republic, brazil type of a nation – youre either dirt poor or filthy rich
      – this “bringing back the good middle class jobs” was one of trumps messages that got him elected, possibly the main one

    75. galamcennalath says:

      Wondering what you are talking about BGT? Ah, google tells me. Never seen the programme.

      However, just watched the performance …

      http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_5CPJHyg95M

      …. the military symbolism is utterly sickening. Quite shocked. Is that what the UK has become? Is that acceptable, never mind win-worthy?

    76. Clootie says:

      I just made the mistake of visiting the electoral calculus site. It has been very accurate in the past ???

    77. ronnie anderson says:

      Once again a Troll Pete has highjacked the thread, because Wingers are replying to his comments , when will yous ever learn .

    78. geeo says:

      No surprise to find Pete talking nonsense.

      Nothing much to add to the informed corrections to his guff other than to point out that food labelling will be a casualty of ukexit, and would ypu really be surprised if WM allowed American imports to be described as ‘scottish’ as thats where it ended up ?

      WM could do that out of pure spite.

      Better to become independent and tell the USA to shove their dodgy foodstuffs.

      America craves high quality produce, Scottish Salmon/Whisky etc, when has anyone EVER said, “you know what i really fancy tonight, chicken washed in a chlorine solution, think the local swimming pool would marinade a few chicken thighs for us” ?

    79. Not Convinced says:

      Could we summarise Jeremy Hunt’s position as being “A no deal Brexit would be very bad, unless it massively increases the chances of Jeremy Hunt becoming PM in which case it’s much more appealing”? (Though to be clear, that’s appealing to Jeremy Hunt!)

    80. Robert Peffers says:

      Ach! Ronnie, when are you ever going to realise the difference between this guy and a Troll?

      Only yesterday I posted the definition of a Troll and this guy doesn’t fit the description. This guy is, much, much worse.

      You are right that the way to deal with trolls is to ignore them and they die. This guy will not die if ignored because he isn’t a troll.

      He is probably a bought and paid for political activist. He pretends to be in favour of Scottish independence but is just sitting watching and waiting to jump in and attempt to gain a political advantage.

      His comment has already done its job as it is posted and ignoring it only gives it credence. The way to deal with that is to demolish his views … … and then ignore him.

      I do believe he has been properly and comprehensively demolished now. So now we can ignore him and his perverse views.

    81. galamcennalath says:

      Ever tasted American chocolate? Well, don’t.

      To say it’s different is an understatement!

      They add small amounts of butyric acid. Consumers there have learned to like it. They say it makes their chocolate ‘nice’ and tangy compared to bland foreign stuff.

      Butyric acid? That’s want makes vomit smell like vomit. It’s also in rancid butter.

    82. Golfnut says:

      Perhaps he’s been cloned and he’s related to dolly the sheep.

    83. Robert Peffers says:

      @galamcennalath says: 3 June, 2019 at 6:44 pm:

      ” … Ever tasted American chocolate? Well, don’t.
      To say it’s different is an understatement!”

      Just a wee addition to, galamcennalath’s comment about the ingredient in USA chocolate of, butyric acid. Here is a cut & Paste of the safety precautions required for those who must handle it:-

      Personal protective equipment such as rubber or PVC gloves, protective eye goggles, and chemical-resistant clothing and shoes are used to minimize risks when handling butyric acid.

      Inhalation of butyric acid may result in soreness of throat, coughing, a burning sensation, and laboured breathing. Ingestion of the acid may result in abdominal pain, shock, and collapse. Physical exposure to the acid may result in pain, blistering and skin burns, while exposure to the eyes may result in pain, severe deep burns and loss of vision.

    84. HandandShrimp says:

      I did try Hershey chocolate. It had a strange goats milk sort of flavour that I found very unappealing. Swiss or Belgian is the thing.

      Whatever piles the pounds on in the US (growth hormone infused meat and corn oil I suspect) it isn’t their chocolate.

    85. Muscleguy says:

      @Pete
      ‘nobody seems to object’
      I grew up, got married and had kids in New Zealan while first an undergraduate then a postgraduate student. We were on less than if we were on the dole. NZ has that system.

      The ignominy of sneaking out of the GP with your sick infant knowing you have the money for their prescription but not for the GP. They will send a bill and hopefully you will have it when it arrives. And that was with a ‘poor card’ which got us lower rates.

      You obviously have NO IDEA of what it is to be poor under such a system.

    86. Robert Peffers says:

      @HandandShrimp says: 3 June, 2019 at 7:05 pm:

      ” … Whatever piles the pounds on in the US (growth hormone infused meat and corn oil I suspect) it isn’t their chocolate.”

      You may be wrong there, HandandShrimp. The USA food regulations for chocolate stipulate less cocoa and more sugar than UK or other EU chocolates.

    87. ronnie anderson says:

      O/T .
      Mental Health services as they were not seen or that there was to long a wait for mental health services . Mr Rennie should be asked to name this GP as he is denying his patients a service of health .

      I have suffered from a Mega Cisterna had I been denied access to Mental Health services by my GP practice I doubt I would be here today ( or being incarcerated in a Mental Instatution .

      I hope the powers that be treat this complaint with all seriousness that it deserves & that a investigation takes place into this statement from a MSP , who should be representing his constituents to the full extent of his abilities .

      In a week of all weeks Willie Rennie’s statement in Scot Parliament today does not inspire confidence in mental Health services , he should clarify & name that GP to the Fife health board or as I suspect he used that statement for political purposes therefore his statement is false & misleading Parliament & should be made to apologise to Parliament .

      Ronald Anderson .

    88. ronnie anderson says:

      O/T cont
      Dear Mr Anderson

      Thank you for your email of 16 May and for letting me know of your concern about some of the comments made by Willie Rennie during First Minister’s Questions.

      I appreciate the point you make and am sorry to hear about how the remarks that day have affected you, particularly given your personal experience.

      As Presiding Officer, my role is to chair meetings of the Parliament and maintain order in the Chamber rather than to rule on the content of contributions. The Parliament is intended to allow for an exchange of views and, as long as they are within the Parliament’s rules, I cannot comment on the arguments made by Members in the course of a debate. Members, including the leaders of the political parties, are responsible for what they say during proceedings and they can be held to account by other Members in the Chamber and by members of the public. I recognise that many people find certain arguments frustrating, but in the end, it is for the viewer to decide whether they find them convincing.

      On this basis, it is my view that it would not be appropriate to undertake an investigation into this matter. However, you may wish to highlight your views to Willie Rennie directly. Given his Party’s position on mental health services, Mr Rennie may be able to offer you some reassurance about the background to his comments in the Chamber and his intentions.

      I wish you well if you decide to pursue this matter further. Thank you for taking the time to write to me and I hope that my response is of assistance to you.

      Yours sincerely

      Ken Macintosh

      Rt Hon Ken Macintosh MSP

      Presiding Officer

      In a word Msps can lie cheat & wont be held to account for misleading Parliament .

    89. Breeks says:


      Bob Mack says:
      3 June, 2019 at 2:07 pm
      @Pete,

      And if your chlorinated chicken and hormone filled beef is served by a restaurant or fast food shop?

      I’m sure they will tell you beforehand.

      And what if you’re poor? You think the poor will be able to pick and choose? Who do you think will be getting the lion’s share of deregulated meats and dodgy products? What do you think is the reason why the US insists a trade deal is conditional upon the UK deregulating it’s practices and diverging away from EU standards?

      Why should Scotland’s farmers who have excelled for decades producing the very best of product, and Scotland, the country where a saltire sticker indicates produce is GM free, why should be be compelled to deregulate our excellent and EU compatible standards and sully our Scottish brand and international reputation with contaminants banned in Europe?

      If the US wants to trade with the UK, why does it demand deregulation? Why doesn’t it raise US standards to meet EU criteria?

      If Scotland is dragged out of Europe against our will, we will suffer deregulation, and divergence away from EU standards and regulations will make it harder and harder for an Indy Scotland to rejoin. Pedigree bloodlines could be irremediably contaminated, Continuity disrupted, traceability compromised, and production reputations and best practice protocols could be set back decades.

      Scotland doesn’t want deregulation. Scotland is thriving on tough regulation and the pursuit of excellence, and long may that continue. Not just for its farm produce, but Whisky too.

    90. Dan says:

      OK Pete. It appears you think a radical change is required in how our society provides / or how we access healthcare because the current setup is unsustainable due to funding constraints of our tax system.
      Why don’t you instead consider pushing for a radical reforming of the tax system we use to cut out the corruption and tax loopholes that reduce the overall tax take which is used to fund not only health, but other essential and important services?

      The use of the word “radical” sounds scary, but if the current system is radically bad, you need a radical change to fix it.
      See, “radical” isn’t so bad after all.

      What do you make of the Annual Ground Rent proposal as an alternative system of raising revenue?

    91. Dan says:

      I’ve been to the Hershey’s Chocolate World…twice!

      I didn’t look forward to going the second time…

    92. CameronB Brodie says:

      Brand Scotland is largely based on quality, of environment and specialised food and drink, for example. This will all end up in the bin thanks to the full-English Brexit. Are Scotland’s farming and fishing communities happy about this? Has the corporate media highlighted this threat to their livelihoods and way-of-life? To their local culture?

    93. John Jones says:

      Come on guys give Trump some credit. after all he has come on leaps and bounds by graduating from crayons to a felt tip pen.just shows what you can do by applying yourself to the task.

    94. Robert Peffers says:

      @Dan says:3 June, 2019 at 8:06 pm:

      ” … if the current system is radically bad, you need a radical change to fix it.”

      There is a very simple answer to, Pete’s daft claims. In the first place the idea of the, “Trickle up”, form of economics is that it is quite simply a bare faced lie and it never has worked that way – ever.

      Since the Tory governments gained power, and before them NuLabour who first changed the tax system from direct to indirect taxation knowing full well this would move the main burden of taxation from those most able to pay to those least able to pay. This was/is a well known fact.

      Since that day the most rich have become more rich while the poor have continued to become more poor and that gap grows wider every year.

      In fact statistics prove that while the poorest in our society are burdened further by austerity measures the richest have more than doubled their personal wealth.

      If you want that in simple terms the wealthiest are not, “all in it together”, with us for you do not suffer austerity while increasing your wealth but the main lie is glaringly obvious. Trickle down economics in fact trickles wealth upwards from the poor to the rich.

      They lied then and they knew they were lying – it really is as simple as that.

    95. Artyhetty says:

      Next article will be an ‘update of an update of an update’, because the swithering and twists have got us all in a spin. ‘Spin’ now there’s a word…

    96. galamcennalath says:

      CameronB Brodie says:

      Brand Scotland is largely based on quality, of environment and specialised food and drink

      Indeed. The Scottish countryside as we know it is under huge threat. Loss of EU markets. Deregulation and therefore contamination of our food chain. EU geographical brand protection lost. Cheap and nasty imports. Loss of the CAP payments. Our agriculture and food industry will be decimated.

      The people involved across rural communities could find things very hard and very different.

      Most Scottish farms are small family affairs, so I’m not talking about the Range Rover driving gentleman farmers. Crofts and hill farms, especially across the Highlands, Islands and Southern Uplands will not survive if CAP disappears and markets dry up.

      All those cute sheep and lambs – most will be culled.

      Brexiteers, Tories, Faragists, don’t give a rat’s arse. Scotland will be collateral damage.

    97. TJenny says:

      galamcennalath – that explains why I think Hershies smell and taste like vomit – only tried the one and spat it out. I also think that synthetically sweetened pop smells like vomit, obvs have never tased it. This apparently makes me a super taster, (I suppose they don’t want to call us supersmellers) as is the Rev, and about a third of the world population can smell the vomit whereas 2 thirds don’t/can’t. I knew that there was something that was in vomit that’s also in aspartame, but not excatly what, so thanks for educating me. 😉

      Why can’t coca cola go bck to the way it was when in hour – glass shaped green bottles and made the tip of your nose, lips and tongue go numb? Lovely. ;=)

    98. Robert Peffers says:

      @Artyhetty says: 3 June, 2019 at 9:03 pm:

      ” … ‘Spin’ now there’s a word…”

      Spin? Is yon no whit ye steer yer tea wi?

    99. Terry callachan says:

      I see the troll hunters are on the prowl again , yes that’s right troll hunters ,
      haha kindergarten stuff
      Still looking for their first troll , nobody they ever accuse of being a troll is actually a troll !

      Talk about inflated egos
      Keeps them busy I suppose and away from more important activities in life ?

    100. galamcennalath says:

      TJenny says:

      I also think that synthetically sweetened pop smells like vomit

      I’m not a fan of artificial sweeteners. I get bitter metallic tastes. I think too many foods and drinks are too sweet anyway. You can buy sugar free baked beans or tomato soup. What was sugar doing in those in the first place!?

      If people want sweet things (like Rev Stu) then that should be up to them. However, the food industry seems to lace everything with sugar or sweeteners.

      Cider. Most common brands now have artificial sweeteners. A traditional natural products screwed around with.

      Which brings me to Brexit. Apparently the sugar industry is very keep on Brexit. Not sure if they are paying for campaigning, but it wouldn’t surprise me. Sugar in the EU comes from either beet or trade deals with ex colonies for cane sugar. Sugar on the open world market (from Brazil for instance) is much cheaper. The sugar industry and food producers want to use this stuff to boost profits.

    101. Robert Peffers says:

      @Terry callachan says:3 June, 2019 at 9:17 pm:

      ” … I see the troll hunters are on the prowl again , yes that’s right troll hunters … “

      Well Terry, As Mandy Rice-Davise famously said in court, “Well, he you would say that, wouldn’t he you?”.

    102. galamcennalath says:

      So, what did Betty Windsor give the Trump family for their tea?

      Steamed fillet of halibut followed by saddle of new season Windsor lamb, strawberry sable with lemon verbena cream and fresh fruit.

    103. Liz g says:

      While it is most important to keep Scottish food standards, one thing I rarely see mentioned is our beaches and rivers.
      We could be at risk of going back to the bad old days of any old industry dumping any old stuff, without EU standards.
      I know it will probably come under “the environment “ but I think that’s too generic a term for most people to connect with industrial waste finding its way in to the beaches and rivers.
      We should be raising awareness of this as well as the food standards!

    104. galamcennalath says:

      Liz g says:

      the environment

      Also, the far right has an infestation of climate change deniers. So heaven knows where that might lead to in a Brexitized UK.

    105. TJenny says:

      O/T – check out https://twitter.com/ByDonkeys, led By Donkeys twitter, they’ve projected Obama and Trump UK approval ratings, 72% and 21%, onto the Tower of London, and the video of Boris Johnston saying Trump is unfit for office of POTUS, onto Big Ben. Very effective, if he sees it.

      I wonder if Stu has thought to get them involved up here for our indy campaign?

    106. Phronesis says:

      The cost of US healthcare;

      ‘Faced with rising premiums, U.S. employers are sharing more of their costs with their workers, particularly through higher deductibles, copayments, and coinsurance. Recent research indicates that employer plan premium contributions and out-of-pocket costs, like those for prescription drugs, are eating up an increasing portion of household budgets…We find an estimated 17.4 million working-age adults and children — 11.6 percent of those living in nonelderly households with employer coverage — had high premium contributions relative to income. This means household spending on plan premiums equaled or exceeded 10 percent of income’

      https://www.commonwealthfund.org/publications/issue-briefs/2019/may/how-much-us-households-employer-insurance-spend-premiums-out-of-pocket?

      ‘With regard to taxes being about values, a participant suggested looking to other countries that have different values than the United States and that operationalize those values in very different kinds of tax structures that, from an evaluation perspective, yield much better population health outcomes than the United States has’

      Exploring Tax Policy to Advance Population Health, Health Equity, and Economic Prosperity: Proceedings of a Workshop (2019)
      ISBN 978-0-309-48359-9 | DOI 10.17226/25237

      Could that be the NHS? Yielding better population health outcomes and not at risk of massive health care fraud US style that employs the investigative talents of a whole FBI dept.

      ‘In 2011, $2.27 trillion was spent on health care and more than four billion health insurance claims were processed in the United States. It is an undisputed reality that some of these health insurance claims are fraudulent…The National Health Care Anti-Fraud Association (NHCAA) estimates that the financial losses due to health care fraud are in the tens of billions of dollars each year…These are people who are exploited and subjected to unnecessary or unsafe medical procedures. Or whose medical records are compromised or whose legitimate insurance information is used to submit falsified claims’

      https://www.nhcaa.org/resources/health-care-anti-fraud-resources/the-challenge-of-health-care-fraud.aspx

      ‘Health care-related schemes attempt to defraud private or government health care programs, which usually involve health care providers, companies, or individuals. These schemes may include offers for (fake) insurance cards; health insurance marketplace assistance; stolen health information; or medications, supplements, weight loss products, or pill mill practices’

      https://www.fbi.gov/scams-and-safety/common-fraud-schemes/health-care-fraud-or-health-insurance-fraud

      ‘Health care fraud may be perpetrated against all types of health insurers and health insurance companies, including Medicare, Medicaid, Blue Cross Blue Shield, workers compensation, and other private entities. Medicare services are divided into Part A and Part B coverage. Part A coverage includes hospital care, home health care, and skilled nursing care; Part B coverage includes physician services, laboratory tests and x-rays, outpatient services, and medical supplies’

      https://www.justice.gov/usao-wdmi/health-care-fraud

      ‘The Department of Justice (DOJ) has announced that $2.5 billion of the total $2.8 billion recovered under the False Claims Act can be attributed to fraud and improper claims from healthcare providers during the fiscal year.
      This was the ninth consecutive year that civil healthcare fraud settlements and judgments have topped $2 billion, officials added’

      https://healthpayerintelligence.com/news/doj-recovers-2.5b-in-healthcare-fraud-false-claims-in-2018

    107. galamcennalath says:

      I think the IndyRef2 campaign will need a new campaigning group – Led by Cuddies.

      Billboards pointing out the lies, hypocrisy, and u-turns. Project some of the many anti Scottish statements made by BritNats. Viral online campaigns. Etc etc .

    108. Breeks says:


      Liz g says:
      3 June, 2019 at 9:54 pm

      We could be at risk of going back to the bad old days of any old industry dumping any old stuff, without EU standards.

      Ha ha. Funny Liz G, but I was thinking the very same thing about HSE rules a couple of days ago watching John Noakes of Blue Peter climbing up Nelson’s Column back in the 70’s without as much as a safety harness, and secured at the top by having a rope tied round him. Extremely brave gutsy fella Mr Noakes was, but Health and Safety, for all the ridicule it gets, has come on tremendously. Deregulation will throw it in reverse just to save the expense.

    109. Tatu3 says:

      galamcennalath @ 9.25
      They put sugar in all sorts of food stuff, baked beans, tomato soup…etc, because it’s addictive and they want you to keep buying.
      Best to make your own.

    110. jfngw says:

      @Dan

      Remember someone bringing back some Hershey chocolate from the USA, what a let down, possibly the worst chocolate I’ve tasted, even worse than Kinnerton which is hard to beat for that yuk feeling.

    111. Liz g says:

      Anybody got any information on food poisoning in the U.S.?
      Especially in comparison to the UK/NHS Scotland?

    112. galamcennalath says:

      @Liz g
      I posted this earlier …

      http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_5CPJHyg95M

    113. Liz g says:

      Galamcennalath @ 10.32
      OMG propaganda much!!!
      What a state England is in,a talent show to find “new and future talent” and they still can only look back to glorify war.
      Also who authorised actual service personnel to be there?
      I hope they weren’t on the clock,because that would make it a state sanctioned performance!

    114. Essexexile says:

      Breeks @10.19pm
      I’m dead against Brexit but if I have to attend 50% less bullshit H&S courses per year just to do my job it just might be the thinnest of silver linings.

      Honestly, 31 training days last year to be reminded how to run a distribution facility safely, which I’ve been doing for two decades without incident. F***ing ridiculous.

    115. Terry callachan says:

      To Robert peffers your post of 9.32 3rd June

      MRDA Robert
      Who knows maybe you will find one
      One of these days haha

    116. galamcennalath says:

      @Liz g

      Oppps

      I meant this one about food poisoning…

      http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gAMpJ9Yr56Y

      Though I did post the mone about militaristic propaganda too earlier.

    117. Gary45% says:

      Liz g@10.28
      No worries with food poisoning from the US, there are big US pharma companies who have the cure for anything. “We gave you food poisoning? We got the cure folks, do you have the money up front to pay or have over priced health insurance? we can rip you off with that too.” Ah good ol Uncle Sam, don’t you just love him”!!
      $$$$ win win for Uncle Sam which ever way you look at it.
      The gullible are too lazy/stupid to realise.
      Expect flyers through the door for Shyster and Shysterstein Health Insurance anytime soon.

    118. chicmac says:

      I’m reminded of a card game we used to play as children known by various names. It was no more than a take on pass the parcel the aim being that you did not want to end up being the one holding the Queen of spades.

      When it was a boys only game it was quite often called ‘*unt the *unt’.

    119. cynicalHighlander says:

      To those concerned about sugar added to foods I think you’ll find that it is a natural preservative as no mould will survive in it. Sugar is pure energy nothing more.

    120. schrodingers cat says:

      was discussing our forward plans today with friends.

      we agreed that

      1. a no deal tory pm will be elected in 4 weeks

      2. a ge will be called within days of this

      3. we should wait until all parties produce a manifesto

      at which point i suggested the snp should switch tactics and put iindy to the forefront of the snp manifesto. there was some reluctance by my friends to do this.

      we discussed the past tactics of separating the snp and yes (change of flags and hats when expedient. I understand why we did this in the past, eg to show that yes was not just the snp and included others ric, greens etc and that in 2015/16/17, indy was specifically removed from the manifesto (at least as a short term result of voting snp in those elections)

      genuine question, what are the pros and cons of the snp doing this?

      one friend said that we only will get one other shot at indy, to which i replied, if you are talking about referendum, then possibly, but i am talking about elections? is this the same thing? they can say no to another referendum, but not to another election?

      isnt the time of convincing voters that the snp is fit to govern over? wont we have a very good idea what brexit mean by then? as the election campaign draws to a close, the exact brexit position will become clearer.

      btw, im not suggesting we drop calls for indyref2, that process should and will continue in parallel to the ge, i’m saying we should change our tactics in elections.

      even if you agree with this, please still post up any thoughts as to any drawbacks to this change. eg, what if the libs win etc?

    121. Cubby says:

      Terry Callachan@9.17pm

      Just about to leave for another late night SNP meeting Terry old boy.

      Terry Callachan @ 10.51pm

      Terry old boy just back from your late Night SNP meeting.

      Callachan you are a Britnat tosser.

    122. TJenny says:

      chicmac – we called it Scabby Queen. (the Queen of Spades). 🙂

    123. Dan says:

      @jfngw at 10:23 pm

      Aye, the Hershey’s stuff is rank.
      I reckon you could give a bar to all the Brexiteers and say “Is this really what you want with US trade deals?”
      Once they taste it there’d probably be a significant swing back to remain!
      Stuff tastes like dug chocolate drops! (don’t ask, I was young and needed chocolate, any port in a storm as they say)

      I’ve tanned a lot of chocolate over the years. During my teenage years my mum reckoned I could probably shit a Toffee Crisp at some points as I’d eaten so many.
      Also tried experimenting with alternatives to get more for my pocket money, but Scotblock cooking chocolate from ScotMid didn’t really cut it.
      Biggest purchase was a fookin huge Toblerone over a metre long. Each chunk was about a kilo and you had to gnaw it like a beaver. After wrecking our gums and jaw muscles we then used an axe, hammer, and grater to get it into usable chunks. I seem recall it took a couple of months till it was finally finished.

    124. Dr Jim says:

      It’ll all be over soon, Boris appears to have the numbers

      Let’s just see what Edna Rennie and Bobbin Leonard have to say to Scotland then because every word that comes out of their mouths will condemn them to oblivian in Scotland

    125. Legerwood says:

      Tatu3 says:
      3 June, 2019 at 10:22 pm
      galamcennalath @ 9.25
      They put sugar in all sorts of food stuff, baked beans, tomato soup…etc, because it’s addictive and they want you to keep buying.
      Best to make your own.””
      ………….

      They put sugar into tomato soup etc to disguise the fact that it does not have any flavour that would be considered in any way palatable. The food stuffs are so full of preservatives, artificial colourants etc mostly in order to extend its shelf life that without the sugar no one would eat the stuff.

      Similarly with low fat products. Fats actually give many food stuffs flavour. Sugar disguises the absence of flavour when the fat is removed.

    126. Patrick Roden says:

      American big business:

      Back in the 70/80s as the AIDS alert was at its worse, big American Pharmaceuticals realized that a lot of the hemoglobin (I think) that they had paid for from donors, was contaminated by the AIDS virus. (Drug Addicts in the USA made money, by selling their blood to these companies)

      They knew if they sold these products in the USA they would be sued and they could face prison for corporate manslaughter…

      So they sold it onto the UK/NHS because yet again our ‘Special relationship’ only works when it suits the Americans.

      I think the SNP government has paid out some compensation to the victims because the Americans wouldn’t.

      Does anyone think for one second, we could ever trust American businesses to care about our health and safety?

      If so, Iv’e got a large castle in Edinburgh I’d like to sell you!

    127. Dan says:

      @Patrick at 12.05am

      The contaminated blood products were being discussed on the radio last week. Hard to believe the screening and regulation back then allowed this to happen.
      One case mentioned was that of a young boy maybe only a few years old that had hemophilia. He had treatment with a blood derived product for the condition but unfortunately it was HIV infected.
      Terrible thing to happen and there was also a lot of other stuff the family had to deal with because of the AIDs stigma at the time. IIRC the lad died age 10.

    128. Liz g says:

      Galamcennalath @ 10.52
      Sorry for the late reply… Airport run AGAIN….
      Anyhoo thanks for that link,truly scary stuff… And it certainly demonstrated that the U.S. food standards are down right dangerous. Imagine that stuff being fed to people in hospitals or schools!!!

    129. crazycat says:

      @ Liz g at 10.28

      I’ve just come across this:
      https://twitter.com/DavidJFHalliday/status/1135685827261075457

      It refers to this article – https://www.sustainweb.org/news/feb18_US_foodpoisoning/ – which is more than a year old, but I don’t suppose much has changed.

    130. dakk says:

      Re the US food trade.Is tinned whole chicken that different to tinned mince, tinned haggis,fray bentos,or tinned anything for that matter?

      I will scoof the lot,Trump,Farage,Bojo,et al if that’s the nonsense which turns the dopey feeble minded britnat scots to Yes.

      Bring the whole fucking lot on obviously.

    131. Liz g says:

      Shrodingers Cat @ 11.29
      I’ve thought for sometime that the SNP should go in hard for Indy in the next General Election manifesto.
      The Westminster lot and the media will say what they are gonna say anyways!!!
      Infact we’ll probably get ” but’ but you said a referendum “,and the promise of a section 30 if we just keep this a Westminster/Brexit election ( Farage already floated this at the EU election )…
      But I don’t think we should hesitate to open up another front in Westminster….
      And I don’t mean another bloody mandate…. I mean a vote for the SNP is a vote to end the current Treaty of Union!
      Any referendum after that should be to sign up to Westminister’s new offer of a TREATY to pool our Sovereignty again or we just keep our Sovereignty here at home.
      We’ve all (the SNP included) said Brexit it dangerous to Scotland,a right wing Tory government is dangerous to Scotland, Westminster is a threat to Holyrood and Scotland wants to keep it’s EU membership.
      So why sit under that threat any longer and wait for a referendum that is almost certainly going to go to a court either before it’s held or after a Yes is delivered.A
      When we’ve a chance to get the vote in with an election that’s considered legal?
      Why have The court battle if we can avoid it and avoid it in their first past the post system.
      Our campaigners are good to go right here right now.

      The Brext is not going to go away even if it currently got cancelled,the threat of it will always be there.
      Neither is the democratic deficit.
      Also in the next General Election all the Unionist Parties are going to struggle with their own manifestos but in an Indy ref they don’t need one,they never say what they will do it yes won,in a General Election they will have to… make us an offer!
      As for a down side…. A possible winter campaign and Mibbi the lack of media coverage.
      But, the lack of media coverage might actually work for us this time,given Scotland’s recent voting habbits!!
      Voting habits that currently don’t tend to see the lib dems as an option. Their new UK leader will be “busy” and that leaves wee Wullie Rennie to defend their Union here 🙂

    132. Liz g says:

      Crazy Cat @ 12.44
      Thanks Crazy Cat,it’s chilling to read…
      Who in their right mind would reduce food standards,the Americans should be demanding that their government raise theirs!!!

    133. twathater says:

      liz g 1.16am and SC , Liz I wholeheartedly agree that if there is a GE the SNP SG should go only with a declaration to dissolve the union no ifs or buts , they should also point out vociferously their competence in government highlighting the TOTAL incompetence of the wastemonster establishment

      As you say no matter what the SNP SG do they are vilified and demonised so why should we worry what their complaints or gripes will be

      I personally think this is what thatcher the milk snatcher was meaning when she made that assertion

      If the SNP won a majority of the seats in a GE under that manifesto that would indicate that it was the will of the MAJORITY of the sovereign people of Scotland ( the claim of right ) we all know that the unionists would be outraged but even if we won the referendum in indy2 they would still be outraged so let’s give them something to be outraged about

      They would moan about the turnout but did this tory government not win by a measly 34% and create this brexshit fiasco , so sauce and all that

      I would also like to see the SNP SG bringing this forward just now to test the water and opinions of the people to gauge the feeling

    134. twathater says:

      There was a programme on earlier at 8pm on the 3rd on ch4 I think , re the American chicken industry and their chlorine washing and processing it was horrendous , try and get it on catchup , if that doesn’t sicken people nothing will

    135. Tackety Beets says:

      Maybe worthwhile checking the sugar content in All those juices etc , your biggest shock will be how much sugar is in MILK, yes milk. I assume it’s added to milk as a preservative, I can go away for a week and use my milk straight out of the fridge on my return.

      When a were t lad, milk only lasted t day or t two.

    136. Robert J. Sutherland says:

      Ach, from now on the Tories should be called “The Flip-flops”. There isn’t an outrageous U-turn any of them wouldn’t attempt in order to hang on to power.

      Even if as things are, it’s more likely “in office” rather than “in power”.

      And no-deal looking ever more likely as every wasted day slides by.

    137. Breeks says:


      Essexexile says:
      3 June, 2019 at 10:44 pm
      Breeks @10.19pm
      I’m dead against Brexit but if I have to attend 50% less bullshit H&S courses per year just to do my job it just might be the thinnest of silver linings.

      Honestly, 31 training days last year to be reminded how to run a distribution facility safely, which I’ve been doing for two decades without incident. F***ing ridiculous.

      Oh I know there’s a huge circus milking the principle of Health and Safety, but I wouldn’t want to return to the dark days when so many lives were wrecked or cut short by workplace attitudes towards safety. The falls, the lung conditions, the hearing loss, the hours folks had to drive without a break… Even just the attitudes were unhealthy.

      At its heart, health and safety is a good thing, but I accept it loses its way once Insurance Companies start writing the rules.

    138. manandboy says:

      There’s another world out there, where the money is very big and very quiet, but, not unlike the blue whale, carries a lot of weight. Except that we’re talking influence, as in throwing one’s financial weight around. The world of fund management. It’s an eye opener.

      https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-47941180

    139. Robert Louis says:

      galamcennalath at 1016pm,

      That is an excellent idea. The campaign down in Engerland has been very powerful, and let’s face it. we have sooooo much more material to use up here in Scotland regarding indy and brexit.

    140. Dorothy Devine says:

      Hershey bars ! Had to have one when I went to the USA , god awful !

      My wee niece lives in Minnesota and crosses the border to Canada on raiding missions for ‘real’ chocolate.

      US standards in foods – no thanks.

      I see that Mr Hammond has decided that the UN report on poverty in the UK is worthy only of dismissal – he has applied the Nelson method , he sees none therefore none exist.

      I am operating on an irritatingly small screen but I can refresh now so I am looking forward to Nana springing into action – hope you are OK Nana.

    141. Robert Peffers says:

      @Terry callachan says: 3 June, 2019 at 10:51 pm:

      … Who knows maybe you will find one
      One of these days haha”

      So you imagine it is a joke, Terry? That alone tells everyone something. The UK security Services were proven to be following SNP people, including Willie McRae, when the mysterious death of Willie McRae occurred and the SNP were a just a tiny party back then. They also had Arthur Donaldson’s home raided, Donaldson arrested without charge and imprisoned him in Barlinnie for several Weeks.

      Now the SNP are a real threat to the UK it would be a miracle if they did not have sleepers in the party and plante4d in such as Wings. Mind you I’d also bet the SNP have sleepers in the UK organisations. Yet you imagine they are not in Wings and the other organisations. Good grief we saw the Leadership of AUOB arrested and charged just a wee while ago.

      Now that wouldn’t be done by the SNP councillors but by council employees and they must have been sure they were safe in their jobs to do what they did.

    142. Robert Peffers says:

      @Terry callachan says: 3 June, 2019 at 10:51 pm:

      ” … To Robert peffers your post of 9.32 3rd June
      MRDA Robert
      Who knows maybe you will find one
      One of these days haha”

      Oh! And by the way Terry, I’ve never accused anyone of being a Troll. A Troll is quite another thing than someone who shows themselves to be anti-FM/SG or SNP.

      Now get this, if you imagine people have the right of freedom of speech to attack the FM/SG/SNP then so do people have the right of freedom of speech to attack the attackers.

      Claiming freedom of speech is a double edged sword, live with it or take yourself off.

    143. Ken500 says:

      Lack of adherence to UK Health and Safety Laws has led to deaths in the Oil sector. With no Inquiry, Despite it being recommended by Westminster Transport Committee. Robert Goodwill covered it up. It was only a Sheriff Inquiry, with impunity for the culpable, which revealed the facts. No documentation of telephone calls. Otherwise the helicopter would not have been flying. Other tragedies have occurred because of lack of adherence to Health & Safety Laws. Worldwide.

      The US bans trans fat. Mad cow came from Alabama.

      Drug companies in the US are being sued for overcharging. People in the US can buy drugs over the counter they can only get by prescription in other countries. People overdose themselves.

      Short term illness can be covered by insurance. It is long term sick that cannot be covered. Too expensive.

    144. stu mac says:

      @Patrick at 12.05am
      ======

      It was not just HIV – that was just fro 1981. From 1973 blood plasma infected with Hepatitis was bought in by the NHS in the UK.

      That was only half the scandal. Once it was discovered, the government blocked/delayed accepting the full extent of what had happened, in effect lowering potential payments to those infected by procrastinating long enough for many of them to die off. Private Eye has been covering his for years.

      Was difficult to find detail for above which is partly from memory but here are a couple of links:
      https://www2.gov.scot/Topics/Health/Services/Blood
      https://haemophilia.org.uk/support/day-day-living/patient-support/contaminated-blood/history-contaminated-blood/

    145. Scott says:

      Anyone else noticed that there is no National front page in the BBC Scotland papers website today,maybe its because of this.

      Shocking images reveal ‘attempt to sabotage’ Yes Bikers with screws

    146. Health and Safety,

      pre H&S 73 people died building the Forth rail bridge,

      with H&S 1 person died building the new Forth road bridge.

    147. Abulhaq says:

      @Robert Peffers 08:02
      The independence movement is an existential threat to the UKGBNI state. A sovereign Scotland would really queer the pitch. Besides the obvious loss of territory and possible decline in international prestige, iScotland would be likely to pursue independent policies in such matters as the economy and foreign relations.
      From its inception ‘Scottish separatism’ has received the attention of the security services. It’s in the literature, so we ought not to be surprised that there are agents lurking within.
      Whether their presence amounts, as the Americans say, ‘to a hill of beans’ is a matter that only time will reveal. The British security services being not what they once were ie competent, we should certainly not succomb to paranoia over the issue.
      The manipulation of Scotland’s media is of rather more concern.

    148. stu mac says:

      Just saw that another Orange march is to be diverted away from the catholic church where the trouble was last year. Reading comment from the O-O I could hardly believe their hypocrisy (well if I make the effort I suppose I can) – they had the nerve to claim that this action by Glasgow Council would encourage religious division in the city. Completely blanking out what their followers did last year (and many times before). If they really believed in stopping religious division they would never have chosen the routes they did for their marches.

      Should add this new stance by the council and the police seems less because they’ve seen the light about standing up to these neanderthals (apologies to the real neanderthals it’s just a saying) but because of stated worry about trouble between them and the “Call it Out” group who have been demonstrating outside churches (to protect them and demonstrate against the march). In other words the authorities only act because some folk decide to stand up to these bigots.

    149. stu mac says:

      Meant to add that “Call it Out” have only demonstrated peacefully, it’s the O-O thugs who are likely to resort to violence. Of course the police don’t make this distinction, stating that “both sides are becoming polarised”. Only one side is “polarised” (i.e. extreme). Standing up to bigots isn’t extreme, it’s what decent folk should have been doing long before now.

    150. Welsh Sion says:

      Scott @ 8.55 am.

      Anyone else noticed that there is no National front page in the BBC Scotland papers website today, maybe its because of this.
      Shocking images reveal ‘attempt to sabotage’ Yes Bikers with screws
      _________

      Seconded. I always have a quick glance @ ‘the papers’ – if only to see what ‘the enemy’ are up to. Surprised … but not … by the omission of the National. (Maybe a phone call/email might work – I’ve ‘persuaded’ BBC Cymru on a few things that way before today …)

    151. Dan says:

      @Scott at 8:55 am

      RE. YES Bikers

      Article is linked to in following tweet.

      https://twitter.com/SunScotNational/status/1135808065708707840

      Article also mentions traffic cones being thrown at the bikers in a previous incident.
      There was also that nutter that ran into the stream of riders to grab a flag off one of the bikes.
      The flags will generally be pretty securely attached to the bikes or riders so hauling at them could easily unbalance the rider and bike.
      People that do this sort of thing are really stupid individuals and I hope the law comes down very hard on those found guilty of such behaviour. If that is done then it’ll also hopefully act as a deterrent to other neepheeds thinking about carrying out such antics in the future.

      Might have to put the bike on the road for the run through Glencoe to the Oban AUOB march…

    152. Willie says:

      One thing that is striking about the state visit being afforded to Trump is that it is nothing more than a Tory party / Brexit campaign road show.

      With Trump rolling into town bad mouthng the elected Mayor of London and promoting Brexit it is our tax money that is being spent in support of partisan political promotion

      And with Sajid Javid omitted you can tell that 2nd gen Pakistani leadership hopefuls are off the card.

      And Queenie, ever there to play the state prostitute that she is.

      Half of London don’t want this, and this is an rxame of the state being used to fuck ordinary citizens.

      As Trump would say, I’ve got a great great deal for you all – and he has in Boris, Farage, Brexit and a NHS special trade deal.

      Duck it up folks.

    153. ronnie anderson says:

      macalbasite.wordpress.com/2019/06/03/the-cost-of-the-union/?fbclid=IwAR2fKyJkCWFzwmuO47yzHUZNfOtevQzXATlwIl8wgFNAvJY_kArfH2XYtpA#more-2450

    154. mike cassidy says:

      Can’t believe there was a health and safety debate upstream in this post- Grenfell Towers era.

      But it is timely on a lighter note.

      Check the footage on the play area they took the kids to at the end of the first 7-Up film in 1964.

      The SAS would have second thoughts about training there.

      36.50 onwards.

      http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1LQZpiSfESE

    155. mike cassidy says:

      Food for thought from the Irish Times

      Are the British really as xenophobic as they’ve been made out to be since Brexit?

      ” Meanwhile the EU faces a philosophical crisis of its own, and it’s much worse than just Britain quitting. All Britain wants to do is leave – the likes of Hungary and Poland want to stay, and use their influence to challenge the liberal values on which the Union was founded.As painful as the British have made their departure, it’s time to consider who we’re being left behind with. “

      http://archive.is/vSdjr

    156. Ken500 says:

      Corbyn protests against Trump but supports Trident. Total hypocrite.

    157. Patrick Roden says:

      I ‘knew’ from memory, about the blood products scandal, but (thanks for the extra information and links on this thread), it beggars belief what’s been going on for so long.

      Let’s not kid ourselves any longer, these scandals happen as much under Labour as they do under the Tories.

      The fact that successive Westminster governments treat the UK voters with such complete contempt, yet people keep voting for them..

      Why?

      That’s easy…Our pathetic compliant media doesn’t tell us what’s going on!

    158. Liz g says:

      Twathater @ 2.12
      I don’t think that the SNP should bring putting Indy in a General Election Manifesto now,they should sit on it till the Election is announced and the Manifesto is normally published!
      Also…. That’s what I ment @ 1.16, by “winning in their own First Past the Post System”,if they can claim victory with only the higher % of the vote then so can we…
      But also this takes care of this Devolved and Reserved pish, if the Constitution is Reserved to Westminster then it’s a righteous vote, to vote on it in a Westminster Election..
      Aye

    159. Kevin Beattie says:

      just went on the bbc paper front pages and noticed the national is missing

    160. Robert Peffers says:

      @Abulhaq says: 4 June, 2019 at 9:03 am:

      ” … The British security services being not what they once were ie competent, we should certainly not succomb to paranoia over the issue.””

      No, Abulhaq, we should not succumb to paranoia, and I do not.

      I spent 50 years as an industrial Civil Servant in the MOD. Much of it required access to top security establishments subject to top security under the Official Secrets Act. I thus dealt with the UK Security Forces and I can assure you they are not by any means all incompetents.

      In any event, any incompetence that occurs is always, and always has been, covered up.

      I’ll tell you something else, often the people they, “operate”, are reluctant to be used. They only do so by having some indiscretion from their past used to blackmail them to reveal things they should not. It isn’t all about money.

      It was a bad day for them when homosexuality was legalised – think about that and check out past spy scandals.

    161. Welsh Sion says:

      Dunno when it appeared – but someone @ BBC Scotland follows Wings.

      The National front page is now there in the newspaper reviews.

      Wingers 1 BBC Scotland 0

    162. cassandra says:

      Bit by bit we are getting Peffers true agenda here, to spread fear and conspiracy theories. To keep you wrapped up in semantics about the various ancient treaties. To use his experience as a British State lackey to feed the masses propaganda to keep them angry about stuff that doesn’t matter.

      Even his ‘Science’ stuff doesn’t ring true. Just look at his info about Butyric acid, straight from Wiki. Anyone with even basic organic chemistry knowledge would know that Butyric acid is a naturally occurring substance and was used by Hershey as it meant the milk he used did not have to be as fresh as his competitors and therefore he could make his bitter vomit tasting chocolate cheaper. Americans have become used to the taste and believe all chocolate tastes like that.The skew he puts on things is always alarmist and paranoid.

      By stifling discussion on the here and now, readers are discouraged to vent concerns about SNP policy which will prevent them gaining the majority they need for Indy. That is Peffers true aim, not to educate you or promote Indy. He is British State through and through and he can’t bear that people can now see through him.

    163. K1 says:

      * collective: :eyeroll: *

    164. schrodingers cat says:

      Liz g says:
      4 June, 2019 at 1:16 am
      Shrodingers Cat @ 11.29
      I’ve thought for sometime that the SNP should go in hard for Indy in the next General Election manifesto.
      The Westminster lot and the media will say what they are gonna say anyways!!!

      ———————-
      true, but that doesnt mean we shouldnt have a plan, a tactic etc
      ———————–

      Infact we’ll probably get ” but’ but you said a referendum “,and the promise of a section 30 if we just keep this a Westminster/Brexit election ( Farage already floated this at the EU election )…

      ——————–
      true, but it is them who are presently denying us a referendum
      —————-

      But I don’t think we should hesitate to open up another front in Westminster….
      And I don’t mean another bloody mandate…. I mean a vote for the SNP is a vote to end the current Treaty of Union!
      Any referendum after that should be to sign up to Westminister’s new offer of a TREATY to pool our Sovereignty again or we just keep our Sovereignty here at home.
      ——————-

      I still think in an election, 50% +1 would give us a mandate to dissolve the union. if we got eg 48%, this wouldnt be a mandate but might give us leverage in our demand for indyref2. this failing, the direction of travel after the ge will be a no deal brexit. i believe that support for yes will continue to climb as the effects of brexit hit home, if we see consistent 55%+ polls, there is nothing to stop us dissolving holyrood and doing it again?

      ————————————-
      We’ve all (the SNP included) said Brexit it dangerous to Scotland,a right wing Tory government is dangerous to Scotland, Westminster is a threat to Holyrood and Scotland wants to keep it’s EU membership.
      So why sit under that threat any longer and wait for a referendum that is almost certainly going to go to a court either before it’s held or after a Yes is delivered.
      —————-

      as I said, this push for indy in elections would run in parallel to the push for indyref2, which ever delivers the goods first wins the prize etc

      ——————

      When we’ve a chance to get the vote in with an election that’s considered legal?
      ———
      ???

      ———-

      Why have The court battle if we can avoid it and avoid it in their first past the post system.
      Our campaigners are good to go right here right now.
      —————-

      see above liz, i think we should continue the quest for indyref2 at the same time
      —————–

      The Brext is not going to go away even if it currently got cancelled,the threat of it will always be there.
      Neither is the democratic deficit.
      —————-
      true, we are not going to go away
      —————–

      Also in the next General Election all the Unionist Parties are going to struggle with their own manifestos
      —————–
      very true, in this next election, the tactical voting of 2017 between unionists will be more difficult, they are very divided

      ————-
      but in an Indy ref they don’t need one,they never say what they will do it yes won,in a General Election they will have to… make us an offer!
      ——————
      perhaps indyref2?
      ———————-

      As for a down side…. A possible winter campaign and Mibbi the lack of media coverage.
      ————–

      I think the next ge will be sept
      ——————-

      But, the lack of media coverage might actually work for us this time,given Scotland’s recent voting habbits!
      ———————-
      difficult for the media to ignore ge’s
      ———————

      Voting habits that currently don’t tend to see the lib dems as an option. Their new UK leader will be “busy” and that leaves wee Wullie Rennie to defend their Union here ?
      ——————

      i review the voting numbers for the lib dems, in a ge in scotland they would not get 10%, at best they will only split the unionist vote.

    165. ronnie anderson says:

      Robert Peffers is Casandra ah TROLL or just a deluded Britnat or ah 77th Brigader , am gettin confuddled in what tae call thread disrupters .

    166. schrodingers cat says:

      2014 EUE 33.5 turnout
      LIB 179,061

      2015 GE 71.1% turnout
      LIB 219,675

      2016 HE (CONS) 55.6% turnout
      LIB 178,238

      2017 GE 66.4% turnout
      LIB 179,061

      2019 EUE 38% turnout
      LIB 238,289*
      (30k was from CUK)

      The libdems are good at getting out their vote, what little there is in Scotland. but in real terms, ie a ge with a much bigger turnout, they will continue to poll about 6-8% in scotland. their claims to have made a huge leap forward are havers

    167. Robert Peffers says:

      @ronnie anderson says: 4 June, 2019 at 12:04 pm:

      ” … Robert Peffers is Casandra ah TROLL or just a deluded Britnat or ah 77th Brigader , am gettin confuddled in what tae call thread disrupters.”

      Well Ronnie, I don’t call people trolls so it isn’t my place to say, but – I’m not replying to Cassandra’s comment so draw your own conclusions.

    168. schrodingers cat says:

      endlessly talking about trolls is a form of trolling

      discuss

    169. schrodingers cat says:

      proposals by tory party to cull candidates with little or no support, speeding up the election process with the last 2 being voted for by party members on june 20th

      2 weeks

    170. schrodingers cat says:

      endless windows updates can also be considered a virus

      discuss

    171. Capella says:

      @ mike cassidy – thx for posting the link to Seven and Up. What a brilliant series that is. I will have to search out the seven yearly updates now. Quite a wonderful insight into the English class system. Listening to a seven year old say he reads the Financial Times to check how his shares are doing (but not on Mondays because they don’t go up then) is hilarious. First episode made in 1964.

      http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1LQZpiSfESE

    172. Gav says:

      OT, an Irish man on R2 Jeremy Vine just declared that the UK is a sovereign country. Went unchallenged.

    173. Dorothy Devine says:

      Is 7 Up on tonight?

      I have watched them all and my favourite bonny boy wanted to be a spaceman and he ended up ill and struggling. Last time he had become a counsellor and life was looking better. He was the one that worried me.

      I did love the cockney sparra too, but found the Financial Times readers hard to take.

    174. Golfnut says:

      @ Shrodingers cat.

      The route to ending this union has historically been through Westminster General elections using Westminsters prefered voting system which is first past the post. They have used fptp, and its inbuilt majority for unionist parties to hold Scotland in the union for 300 years. They can hardly complain if we use the same system against them. Referendums as an alternative method was introduced and past at conference by the SNP, it is therefore party policy not a constitutional requirement.

    175. Effijy says:

      BBC Breakfast news- Daily Headlines to demean Scotland-

      Think tank suggests SNP need to qualify how they can deliver equality and growth in Scotland as so many are living in poverty.

      The Scottish Government allege that Westminster has taken £2 Billion from Scotland’s budget.

      Allege? How about propaganda quay takes a minute to look at our budget figures.
      They could act like journalists or a responsible and an impartial
      news outlet, but not for them thank you.

      Like a torrent rush, rebellious Scots to crush! BBC Hand Book.

    176. Dr Jim says:

      Nobody’s denied Scotland a section 30 order yet because so far the Scottish government hasn’t asked for the transfer of that power, all that’s happened is some Unionist politicians have bumped their gums about it, including the Prime minister

      A section 30 order can only be denied if and when it’s requested, and that hasn’t happened yet

      UN conventions state quite clearly that countries and peoples have the legal right to self determination by whatever legal instruments are employed to achieve that

      The UK as the member state of the UN signed up to those conditions of membership of the UN
      Is the UK about to flout International law *again* by refusing the rights of democracy they themselves are signatories to

      The UK are not the worlds or indeed the UNs favourite people at the moment, they have ignored the UN child poverty report condemning them over their use of ideological austerity while at the same time praising the Scottish government’s attempts at mitigation of such policies without the full powers to do so
      The UN have ordered the UK government to remove themselves from the Chagos islands and restore ownership to Mauritius and given them a time limit of six months to do it

      When the time comes to request the transfer of power with a section 30 order ratifying agreement on the result of any Scottish plebicite on Independence I have a gut feeling the UK establishment will be advised to agree with the transfer and then hope to win a referendum by other devious means, because if they refuse to transfer that power the risk to the UK is that they push the desire for Indepndence higher just by that action alone

      The UK government may think it’s playing poker with Scotland but the Scottish government doesn’t have to bluff to achieve its purpose

      Deny a section 30 and they’re in court over their own constitutional and International agreements to comply with International law they helped to create, so I think they’ll agree wae thur lips tremblin

    177. schrodingers cat says:

      Golfnut

      you are of course 100% correct in this

      however, the route to indy via a referendum was introduced by the snp because it was felt that declaring independence by winning the majority of mp westminster seats with potentially only 38% of the voters wasnt sustainable. i agree with this. the good news is we are only a few % points away from doing exactly that.

      the only question remaining is how we frame the argument to attack on both these fronts, eg indyref2 and election mandates.

      nicola managed it wrt the manifesto in 2016, I believe she can do so again

    178. schrodingers cat says:

      correction

      the good news is we are only a few % points away from winning with 50% +

    179. schrodingers cat says:

      Dr Jim

      a timely reminder of the actual facts concerning the request and non refusal by wm of the s30

      nb. I am not calling for this process to be halted or abandoned by nicola,

      I am merely calling for a 2nd front to be opened.

      btw, what i am proposing is a big departure from the snp existing tactics etc, I’m surprised no one has openly disagreed with this change of direction??

    180. Mike cassidy says:

      Re the 7-up series

      I’ve never gone along with the idea that from 21-up it was all about the individuals

      And you could let go the politics which had influenced the creation of the series.

      As I watch them all at 63 this week

      I will be well aware of the corrosive nature of a system that still lands us with the Camerons and Johnsons in charge

    181. call me dave says:

      @Effijy

      Yes indeed Effijy, I was muttering all through the ‘think tank’ piece about the Barnett Cuts as the minister was BBC ‘quizzed’.

      Then at the very end radio shortbread interviewer mentioned the SGov ‘allegation’ that £2B had been cut from Barnett. 🙁 🙁

      Another day in the colony!

    182. Capella says:

      @ Dorothy Devine – Radio times says 63 Up airs nightly from Tuesday 4th – Thursday 6th June on ITV at 9pm.

      https://www.radiotimes.com/news/tv/2019-06-04/63-up-seven-up-air-date-time-itv-documentary-michael-apted/

    183. crazycat says:

      @ Tackety Beets at 2.38 am

      Milk naturally contains lactose, which is a sugar. It is declared on the label as part of the standard nutritional information; I don’t think it’s added.

      It is, however, noticeable that milk now lasts longer, as you say. (It also goes off, rather than sour.) I assume this is a consequence of universal pastuerization and homogenization, as well as perhaps better storage and transport.

    184. Petra says:

      BBC news reporting that Michael Gove will be having a private meeting with Trump. Seemingly surprised that it’s not Johnston or even Fox.

      ………………………

      Laugh of the day!! Oh and we can see right through you, Mrs (or Mr).

      @ cassandra says at 11:47 am ….”That is Peffers true aim, not to educate you or promote Indy. He is British State through and through and he can’t bear that people can now see through him.

    185. Dr Jim says:

      I wish I knew, Naw I don’t:

      I don’t believe anybody knows what the SNP tactics are, because they’re not telling, even the senior officials haven’t been told, this is the closest guarded I can remember the SNP ever being

      Alex Salmond was great for getting everybody motivated and going by talking a lot about what he could do but the current FM saw that strategy fail and I know she absolutely refuses to contemplate failure again

      The frustration for us all is we don’t know so we all try and second guess what’s going on but we don’t have the information and she’s not going to blab and she’s making sure nobody else can either

      If any of us knew the details we might blab it on here or to someone somewhere else, it’s human nature, it does your head in not to know stuff but at the same time you’re glad you don’t know in case you give the game away

      I feel the FMs saving us all from ourselves

      Well I hope she is, see! it makes you mental just thinking about it

    186. cassandra says:

      https://wgscotland.org.uk/

      Something worth discussing which is relevant and may have an impact on how many votes the SNP get in the next election. Angela Constance is hosting an event where all the quangos and groups dependent on SG funding are getting a say, no one critical of self ID is invited.

      No matter how many times criticism of the SNP, who are the party in power in Scotland, gets shouted down here, we must let them know they are not doing everything right. If you want them in power next time round let them know how and why they are getting it wrong – I have tried through the party machine and it doesn’t work.

      If you are a woman who is concerned about your rights and you want Indy, just who do you vote for in Scotland?

      I’m sure this won’t go down well with some. We have had our one or two threads and the old men who live BTL decide what we get to discuss – the nasty BBC, the Treaty of Arbroath, who is a tractor or an Mi5 plant ad nauseam…

      They can hijack any thread they want but woe betide anyone who doesn’t agree with the designated items for discussion and actually wants the SNP to learn how to make up those missing votes.

      Anyway, SNP zealots ignore at your peril and when Mike Russell and The AG have finished explaining the new Referendums Bill to Nicola Sturgeon I’m sure she’ll need something else to read, the Booker list must be coming to an end. I recommend this report.

    187. Petra says:

      ‘Michael Gove ‘prepared to delay Brexit until end of 2020 to block no-deal.’’

      http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/michael-gove-brexit-no-deal-conservative-tory-leadership-a8940276.html

      ………………………..

      ‘Nigel Farage defends ‘gay conversion’ endorsement from Brexit Party’s Ann Widdecombe.’

      http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/nigel-farage-ann-widdecombe-gmb-good-morning-britain-homosexuality-a8943196.html

      ……………………….

      ‘Nigel Farage’s Brexit Party takes general election poll lead for very first time.’

      http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/brexit-party-farage-leads-general-election-poll-opinium-a8940191.html

    188. schrodingers cat says:

      Dr Jim says:
      4 June, 2019 at 1:43 pm
      I wish I knew, Naw I don’t:

      I don’t believe anybody knows what the SNP tactics are, because they’re not telling, even the senior officials haven’t been told, this is the closest guarded I can remember the SNP ever being
      —————-

      i’m not making snp policy, im just throwing it out there for consideration

      i believe the snp do read wings and other sm sites to gauge public opinion, as yet i havent seen anyone making a comment as to why this change in party policy would be a bad move?

      it certainly isnt as controversial as changing its position wrt eg, nato or the queen etc

    189. Dorothy Devine says:

      Thanks Capella!

    190. geeo says:

      Trump just confirmed live on air at Trump/treeza press conference that the NHS absolutely IS on the table in any trade deal with America post ukexit.

      Treeza looked horrified and desperately tried to back away from that assertion.

      Trump should never have got a State visit, but it sure looks like it will be a MASSIVE mistake after the NHS assertion.

      Note how nobody asked Trump about, nor to condemn, his bestie North Korean Dictator murdering the NK trade deal negotiators for failing to make a deal with their U.S. counterparts.

      All brushed under the carpet as usual by the uk media.

      As for treeza…”as you know, i am a woman of my word” says she, after a simpering appeal by a Times ‘reporter’ to stay and make the deal with Trump.

      What, you mean APART from the 108 times she gave her word that “we will leave the EU on March 29th 2019”.

    191. Graeme says:

      schrodingers cat says:
      4 June, 2019 at 12:18 pm

      endless windows updates can also be considered a virus

      discuss

      —————————————————————–
      Windows is a virus it’s malicious software, don’t use it you don’t have to, there’s a far better alternative

    192. Terry callachan says:

      To Robert Peffers and friends…

      https://www.taxresearch.org.uk/Blog/2019/06/03/scotland-is-being-shafted-by-dodgy-data-from-westminster/

      Often you say that “if you live and pay tax in Scotland you should be able to vote in Scotland”

      Here is more evidence that what you say is wrong.
      Here is evidence that HMRC cannot even determine WHO pays tax in Scotland
      So how would you decide Robert ?
      How would you determine who is a taxpayer in Scotland if HMRC (Scotland) can’t even do it ?

      Just asking

    193. CameronB Brodie says:

      re. Scottish ‘nationalism’. It is nothing of the sort, it is the expression of patriotism for Scotland. Re. British nationalism. This is very much “nationalism”, imagining that a “unitary state” is a nation. This ‘nation’ has a constitution that is underpinned by “natural law”, which imposes a rational requirement that both Scottish and English cultures be viewed as equal in law. The full-English Brexit annihilates this myth, created over centuries of methodological construction by the culture industries.

      This new British nationalism is an expansive form of English nationalism, the contemporary form of which is characteristically xenophobic in nature. Marvelous.

      UKIP and the rise of English nationalism

      People in England increasingly indentify as English rather than British, and so far it is the ‘blood and bitter’ reactionary nationalism of UKIP that is benefiting.

    194. CameronB Brodie says:

      I’d forgotten this is another CORE subject, i.e. defining what a nation is (see Scotland and England, for example). 🙂

      The Problem of “Nationalism” and “Imperialism” in British Settlement Colonies

      Extract

      Nation-making, said Canadian journalist Sir John Willison, was one of Canada’s infant industries. Canada had first become a nation in 1867, and, according to party literature, with every subsequent change of government “we have been made a nation over again.” Sir John was not exaggerating the number of times that writers have made Canada a nation, and, since historians have often been employed in the same nation-making industry, this paper will concern itself with the problem of the historian in dealing with the conceptions of “nationalism” and “imperialism” in Canada and other colonies of British settlement.

      The study of nationalism in British settlement colonies is hampered by difficulties of terminology, conceptualization, and ideological inflection. Looseness of word-usage, such as using “nation” for both state or country and as a word to describe a group of people with some common features, constitutes a major difficulty, especially when historians accept the looseness uncritically and without analysis. Sometimes “national” is used as a euphemism for the policy of protection – Sir John A. Macdonald’s Canadian National Policy was originally little more than that.

      The same term was used by Queensland’s Premier McIllwraith in 1882, and there “national” could only have meant the economic development of the Queensland “nation.” “National” sometimes simply means a geographic whole or a common, central institution – that is, a “national” government can merely mean one government governing four provinces, or six states. The word can even, as in “national schools,” mean non-denominational.

      https://www.cambridge.org/core/journals/journal-of-british-studies/article/problem-of-nationalism-and-imperialism-in-british-settlement-colonies/71296AFA80F71E07446E55F3CF807756

    195. Robert Louis says:

      Westminster elections are won or lost on the basis of number of seats, not percentage vote share. That is the system, with flaws and all.

      This notion that winning a majority of pro indy seats cannot be used for indy, is tosh. If it is clear in the manifesto that a majority for SNP will mean instant ending of the union, then their is not a problem. People who do not want that simply do not vote for pro indy parties.

      This endless, over-thinking of outcomes regarding votes and what can be ‘allowed’ or not ‘allowed’ is errant nonsense. It seems the only poeple saying that certain things can or cannot be ‘allowed’ is the SNP.

      I do not doubt that when the SNP (which always has stood for scottish independence) won every single MP seat in Scotland apart from Iain Murray, Westminster full expected the SNP to demand immediate independence. I fully expected it, and so did many others. But the SNP didn’t follow through, instead, they meekly said, ‘this means Westminster MUST now deliver the Smith report in FULL’. I mean, woo, scary stuff, I bet Westminster was terrified.

      Had the SNP gone in hard at that point, they would likely have al the very least secured near devo max, and possibly much more. It was like nobody in the SNP knew how to get what you want by bargaining.

      People like to say however, that if the SNP had gone into full indy mode following that election win, then Westminster would have complained and argued against it. And I would simply say, of course they freaking well would. If every single Scot voted tomorrow for Scottish independence, Westminster and unionists would still find fault and argue against it. It’s what they do, the NEED Scotland, FFS. I am astonished that some in the SNP still do not get that.

      We could have the best mandate in the world, and it wouldn’t matter one jot. At some point, the SNP leadership will need to sniff the coffee and wake up to that hard fact. Let’s hope they do it soon, or get a leader who will.

    196. Patrick Roden says:

      I can’t help thinking that it would be a very useful addition to Wings if details about how long a person has been commenting on in Wings and how many comments they have made, would appear under their ‘favicon’ or thumbnail picture (whether or not they had an actual picture)

      This would show up the sudden (concerned about peffers’s ) type comments, that come out of the blue, from names no one has heard of.

    197. geeo says:

      Here he goes again with his ‘ESSENPEE USELESS” mantra.

      Robert ‘the fake indy supporter’ Louis yet again shows his true colours on a day when the case for indy takes a huge boost from Trump confirming the NHS is an integral part of any post ukexit trade deal.

      Hurting at the very idea support will be grown by simply letting stuff play out.

    198. geeo says:

      Patrick Roden@3.44pm

      Is it not obvious who is what on here ?

    199. Carol says:

      If Brexit happens and America wants the NHS as part of the “special” trading deal can Westminster sell off the Scottish NHS also or are their hands tied by Scottish Govt.

    200. CameronB Brodie says:

      Time for some psychoanalysis of nationalist politics?

      NATIONALISM AND THE BODY POLITIC

      We cannot, argued Gullestad in Plausible Prejudice (2006), “understand the appeal of right-wing politics if we do not take into account how this rhetoric is underpinned by and embedded in rearticulated neo-ethnic ideas.” She argued that politicians from other than the right-wing populist parties have resisted specific ways of talking that are considered too extremist, rather than their underlying frame of interpretation.

      Recent news stories appear to lend support to her view: Civil rights campaigners have accused governments, not just in France but across Europe, of adopting anti-immigrant and anti-Roma policies to win popular support. The issue of the so-called ‘Ground Zero mosque’ has caused agitation in the US. In Denmark, the nationalist party is supporting the current government, while the Sweden Democrats has been battling up in the recent elections, appealing to hostility towards immigrants and Muslims in particular, employing the slogan “Tradition and Security”

      In relation to the Wolf-man’s phantasies, where the passive role he had played towards his sister had been envisioned as reversed, Freud (1914) wrote that they “corresponded exactly to the legends by means of which a nation that has become great and proud tries to conceal the insignificance and failure of its beginnings.” Given that we are witnessing a revival of nationalist ideas, it is worth asking what fantasies these give voice to.

      One might think in terms of ‘cultures of fear’ (Moïsi (2009) in reference to recent developments in USA and Europe), of fantasies of fusion or ‘imagined sameness’ (Gullestad). Alongside the image of the nation as a mother and/or father, Reich (1933) called attention to the fantasy of the nation as a body. This metaphor is echoed in Money-Kyrle’s (1939) characterization of ‘group hypochondria’ in connection with the burning of witches and heretics; “The Church, and State united to it, could tolerate no foreign body within itself, and turned ferociously upon any that it found.” The analogy may call to mind fantasies of scooping out, sucking dry, of poisoning, or of the other’s supreme enjoyment.

      Where ‘the foreign body’ in Freud/Breuer’s formulation designates the memory of the trauma, they admit that the analogy breaks down in that the resistance is what infiltrates the ego and that the treatment consists in “enabling the circulation to make its way into a region that has hitherto been cut off” (1893-95). Thus, conversely, one might think, along the lines of Butler’s (2004) reflections on the obituary as an act of nation-building, the instrument by which grievability is publicly distributed, which call attention not as much to the iconic images celebrated as to what violence and what losses are derealized. When the national public sphere is constituted on the basis of a prohibition on certain forms of public grieving, what has been cut off?

      This is an interdisciplinary conference – we invite theoretical contributions and historical, literary or clinical case studies on these and related themes from philosophers, sociologists, psychoanalysts, psychotherapists, literary theorists, historians and others. Perspectives from different psychoanalytic schools will be most welcome.

      Presentations are expected to take half an hour; another 30 minutes is set aside for discussion. Please send an abstract of 200 to 300 words to moc [dot] liamg [at] scitilop [dot] sisylanaohcysp by December 1st 2010.

      https://www.psa-pol.org/nationalism-and-the-body-politic/

    201. CameronB Brodie says:

      And a tiny bit more psychiatry and stuff.

      Who ‘We’ Are: Otherness, Nationalism and the Media

      Abstract

      Media play a key role in shaping who ‘we’ are – not just on an individual level, but also on a national level. However, to define the Self, we need an Other – which can then shapeshift in order to fit the discourse required.

      Making use of examples from Japan and the UK, two countries with a strong sense of national ‘uniqueness’, I will look at how the media construct ‘Otherness’ in both countries, who these Others are and how they are appropriated. Thus, in times in which nationalist movements are on the rise, it becomes even more important to look at how the media contribute to or dismantle nationalistic debates.

      Keywords
      media, nationalism, identity, Otherness, cultural racism, Japan, UK.

      https://eprints.soas.ac.uk/24049/1/GKirsch_SOAS_Who%20we%20are_prepublication%20version.pdf

    202. Sinky says:

      Only one way to Change UK vote YES

    203. Liz g says:

      Carol @ 3.46
      Westminster hands are never tied by the Scottish Government.

      So yes if Westminster decide to put NHS Scotland on the table in a U.S. deal there’s nothing Holyrood can do about it.THE

      If you think back to when the Scottish Government were talking about a “power grab” and Westminster was talking about keeping a ” UK wide framework ” that’s when they took the power to sell NHS Scotland and anything else too!
      Also they took the power to deactivate the protection around The Scottish Brand.

      Westminster talk all the time of the powers coming back to Holyrood,and there are some,but,they forget to mention Westminster are keeping all the good one’s.
      When Holyrood tried to stop them,they went to the English Supreme Court and changed the law so that Holyrood couldn’t protect Scottish trade.

      The main power that they took to make a market place out of Scottish Health is called Procurement.
      Obviously Independence is the only sure way to keep NHS Scotland from being included in the sale!

    204. robertknight says:

      Robert Louis@3:19

      So, if I’m right, what you’re advocating is that at the next UK GE if, for example, the FibDems, Tories and SLabour each polled 20% in each Scottish constituency, the Greens and Kippers/Brexidiots shared 10%, and the SNP romped home in first place in every constituency with 30% and cleaned up, then Indy Scotland here we come? With just 30% voting SNP, every MP being SNP is your mandate?

      Good luck with that old bean.

    205. Petra says:

      @ Liz g says at 4:15 pm …. ”Carol – Westminster hands are never tied by the Scottish Government. So yes if Westminster decide to put NHS Scotland on the table in a U.S. deal there’s nothing Holyrood can do about it.”

      And of course if they decided to so-called leave our NHS alone, initially, as they spend less money on their NHS due to privatisation they then cut our Barnett sweety money in line with that. No saying how long the BF will last for either when they bail out of the EU, as they can basically do what they like with us then.

    206. call me dave says:

      The SNHS is also tied into Barnett so if an increase is announced darn Sarf by WM then Scotland will get Barnett consequential share.

      If ENHS funding reduced by WM same applies in Scotland.

      If ENHS sold off SNHS funding will be dramatically different.

      Best not to go there …vote for independence at all times.

    207. Dr Jim says:

      @Carol 3:46pm

      The westminster government can dissolve the Scottish parliament at will, you may have noticed in the last few days certain newspapers running stories of Holyroods ineffectiveness and the unachieving under achieving Scottish parliament, David Mundell described the Scottish parliament as ineffective and failed to achieve the purpose for which it was designed

      All the while David Mundells renamed Scotland office has grown massively in staff, budget and resources

      Scotland’s NHS is not safe from American health Insurance companies who would absolutely love to get their hands on the NHS of the entire UK, it’s worth £billions and our little country of Scotland would be swallowed up like a minnow, the central belt of Scotland privatised would survive after a fashion, but rural Scotland? it would be just forget it because there just aren’t enough people in the Highlands and Islands to make it worthwhile to these American companies to service healthcare to the same degree so it would be travel or die and cross your fingers you make it in time to a Hospital

      We’ve all seen the investigations for years into American insurance healthcare and how it’s designed to make you pay, not to make you well

    208. auld highlander says:

      i wonder what untraceable backhanders those sleazy two faced politicians in power will get from trump for allowing the money grabbing us companies access to the nhs.

      https://www.thelondoneconomic.com/news/trump-confirms-nhs-is-on-the-table-in-post-brexit-trade-deal/04/06/

    209. Robert J. Sutherland says:

      Dr Jim @ 13:05:

      Nobody’s denied Scotland a section 30 order yet because so far the Scottish government hasn’t asked for the transfer of that power

      Indeed so. A point that seems to have been lost on some at least. Back in early 2017 when it looked like a request was brewing, Mayhem volunteered her “now is not the time” response, which was a carefully-calibrated attempted deterrent, not a refusal. It couldn’t have been a refusal because the SG had made no formal approach, but it would have been a very brave or foolhardy PM to have come out with a categorical “nyet” anyway, since it would have crossed a big constitutional red line. That’s what these know-nothing Tory candidates don’t seem to realise in their efforts to look macho for the benefit of the delusional English shires and their increasingly-desperate Scottish hangers-on.

      Deny a section 30 and they’re in court over their own constitutional and International agreements to comply with International law they helped to create, so I think they’ll agree wae thur lips tremblin

      As i was arguing in the previous thread, it may even be better for independence for the issue to come to court, because of the adverse publicity for this oppressive Union it would generate. Publicity that couldn’t be hidden away by the usual media self-censorship. And an issue that would finally expose the enduring constitutional divide between England and Scotland.

      For which reason, my guess is the same as yours. The UKGov wil take the line of least resistance. I guess that is the SG’s belief also.

      But if not, it’s a win-win for us anyway.

    210. BobW says:

      @robertknight

      Was that not Margaret Thatcher’s position?

    211. Joe says:

      CameronB Brodie

      Its simple Cameron. A strong sense of nationalism (regardless of the kind) puts up borders. Borders get in the way of neoliberal big money efforts at undermining living standards, legal protections and wages of ordinary people.

      So they (big money) appeal to peoples sense of charity and decency by pretending that the massive problems of the 3rd world (such as more than 3 billion people living on 2.5 dollars per day) can be solved by opening the borders to any and all who would come.

      So, using basic mathematics, you realise that introducing even 10% (300,000,000 people, almost half Europes population) of the 3rd world into Europe will do nothing except destroy social services, lower wages and generally grind down the working and lower middle class (when employment isnt great now anyway in many countries).

      The best way instead would be to stop sending ‘foreign aid’ to dictators (who in return give multinationals access to resources) and terrorist organisations that destabilize their homes, and actually give those ordinary people a chance at building a decent life, in their own countries, might be the way to go?

      But then the media and the political left will paint anyone who suggests it as an ‘ethno-nationalist’ a ‘far right winger’ and possibly even a ‘nazi’.

      All the while the banks and the multinationals plunder the 3rd world, continue to try to undermine the working class by massive immigration into Europe and the US, while leftist politicians and activists along with the media and big tech squash dissent for them by being either payed actors or just useful idiots.

      For many of us we cant afford for things to get tighter. We cant afford to lose what social services are left. We cant afford the cost of living to increase. We cant afford for work to be sent to countries that have minimum or any labour protection such as China. We would rather take the slimey smears (white male resentment, anyone?) from the political left, the comfortable liberal professionals, the career politicians, the race-baiters and the utterly disgusting ‘journalists’.

      This is where the working/middle class right wing is rising from in Europe and the US. No degree or PHd needed. I hope that helps.

    212. JMD says:

      geeo 2.41

      “Note how nobody asked Trump about, nor to condemn, his bestie North Korean Dictator murdering the NK trade deal negotiators for failing to make a deal with their U.S. counterparts”.

      I read about that too, about these NK guys getting offed because they’d displeased their glorious leader somehow.

      Then later I read an article on Zerohedge which showed that they hadn’t been killed at all but were alive and well.

      Amazing how people who you’d think would question anything that comes out of an msm source still fall for their propaganda.

    213. Tom says:

      Carol says:

      If Brexit happens and America wants the NHS as part of the “special” trading deal can Westminster sell off the Scottish NHS also or are their hands tied by Scottish Govt.

      I’ve often thought that, that would be the point when people in Scotland take to the streets.

      The NHS is devolved – you can’t have it back.

    214. Marie Clark says:

      See Sky news is reporting that Change UK have split. Six of them, including Chuka Ummuna have left, will sit as independent MP’s. Seemingly, Anna Soubry (Con) will lead the five that’s left. One Tory and four Labour. Well, well, 4 months on and falling apart already.

      Also, one of the hopefuls’ for big T’s job has withdrawn from the race. Still we all sit and wait, for this farce to play out before we know what is going to happen with brexit.

      Is that not where we all came in, a bun fight in the Tories and another fine mess that you’ve gotten us into.

    215. Mac says:

      Scotland is calling all Sons and Daughters
      of the Burns, the Lochs, the Firths and all waters.
      of the Braes and the Hills, the Moors and the Bens.
      of the Heather, Gorse, Peat and Thistle again.

      The echoes of history doon through the glens,
      last chance of a future, a nation again.
      Voices of reason, passion and soul,
      are calling ye all, to make Scotland whole.

      Our culture is strong and distinct on these isles.
      But governed by London and Westminster wiles.
      Some people are lost, afraid of their right
      Worried by change and scared of the fight.

      No reason tae worry, nae reason tae doubt,
      resources aplenty, to be proud about
      Resourceful, tenacious, inventive and strong
      If you think we canny make it, you’re lost and you’re wrong

      Burns, Hume and Baird, Fleming and Bell,
      Lennox and Bremner, and Gemmil as well.
      Macintosh, Napier, Maxwell and Hogg.
      Hardie and Barrie and Greyfriars Dog.

      Sorley McLean, Shinwell and Watt
      Wallace and Baxter, Busby and Scott
      Erskine, Carlyle, Connery and Stevenston
      Jackie Stewart, Ure, don’t forget Livingstone.

      So, people of Scotland, stand up and be proud
      Yer spirit is strong, yer voices are loud.
      Take back yer Sovereignty, take back yer land.
      From the mountains of Morar, to Eigg’s singing sand.

      From the hills beyond Pentland, to Bonnie Dundee
      From Harris to Lewis, Rhum and Tiree
      Take back our future, let go of the past
      Cos the wider world need’s Enlightenment fast.

      Poverty, famine, pestilence and greed
      Illegal wars, an Empires creed.
      UK is broken and Europe’s the best
      Scotland can rise by just saying YES.

    216. Dr Jim says:

      Don’t worry folks, in the new shiny American *Britain* everyone will have a job……doing something, it may not be a paying job but you’ll be happy to serve or you’ll be in the new *Boris British army* who are struggling at the moment for recruits, and I mean struggling, young people just don’t want to do that stuff anymore especially Scottish youngsters, because their life chances are much improved now with opportunities for University and modern apprenticeships

      But when Boris is in charge an army will have to be found, he’s said so, and to that end the Conservative and Unionist party are in this moment making changes to their rules of electing the next President, sorry Prime Minister of England, sorry UK so that Boris will definitely win

      The Tories will not be thwarted from their appointed task

    217. twathater says:

      @ Mac 4.52pm a very uplifting and honest portrayal which should be made into a song and sung at the indy AUOB marches and there are very many indy supporting musicians out there who could produce the music

    218. Robert J. Sutherland says:

      Joe @ 16:42,

      A straight readout of 1930’s far-right propaganda. A big anti-corporatist play in times of economic hardship with a simple isolationist panacea and a cynically exploitative anti-immigrant blame game that even manages to suck in some far-left delusionists. All from the playbook just as before.

      Snake oil that somehow never gets round to explaining how dividing countries from each other, instead of working in common cause for mutual benefit, can ever have a hope in hell of any one of them standing up to the Great Corporatist Satan. And exactly who gains from that, we might wonder?

      The same-old-same-old devious divide-and-conquer.

      Begone, fork-tongue.

    219. gus1940 says:

      The metropolitan broadcast and print media are crawling up Trumps’ backside while playing down the protests against the visit.

      It really is vomit inducing.

    220. Liz g says:

      Tom @ 4.40
      Westminster has already taken it back Tom.
      In that Court Case….. The Power Grab….
      They call it Procurement hoping that no one realised!
      There only one way we’re getting it back to safety….

    221. Joe says:

      @Robert J Sutherland

      Thank you for the reply. I refer you to my phrase ‘But then the media and the political left will paint anyone who suggests it as an ‘ethno-nationalist’ a ‘far right winger’ and possibly even a ‘nazi’’

      Can you explain to me, in numbers, how open borders with the 3rd world can work to A: in real terms reduce world poverty, considering the number of people involved and birth rates and B: not compromise the social services and living conditions of ordinary people (of all races) of Europe?

      Please try to answer that. I understand that to you I am an evil nazi bstd reptile but swallow your righteous bile for a second and give me an answer with numbers. I really would love to have a bright outlook. Unfortunately the maths doesnt work for me on this and im left less than optimistic.

    222. stonefree says:

      Re the Scottish NHS.
      My understand is that it pre-date the Aneurin Bevan version by a short time about a year, but the system was in existance to all intents and purposes,existed in Scotland from 1913, Given the Highlands and Islands Medical Service merely evolved to what it is today,trying to sell it could be argued as unlawful it could also be argued as England and for that matter the UK might not have legal title.
      It’s a thought.

    223. Robert J. Sutherland says:

      Robert Louis @ 15:19,
      robertknight @ 16:18,

      You can be sure of one thing, if the SNP were to gain absolutely every single MP in a UKGE under FPTP, although it would be a success of the first magnitude, the BritNat chorus would immediately switch to Plan B, and attempt to discount the result on the grounds that it lacked the necessary 50%+1 of the popular vote, never mind the whole registered electorate.

      Despite the likely fact that the “British” Government would have a “mandate” to govern us on a lower proportion of the UK-wide vote, let alone their showing in Scotland alone. And to hell with whatever Thatcher once said.

      They may posture, but there comes a time when the desperation and wangling becomes just too transparent, and the attempt fails to acquire the necessary popular acquiescence. As happened in the GDR in 1989, for example. And we have a coherent and competent leadership to see us through.

      So although a 100% win wouldn’t of itself guarantee independence, it would signal “the end of days” for all to see, I think.

      It’s rare, but these things can suddenly flip, seemingly out of nowhere.

    224. Robert J. Sutherland says:

      Joe @ 17:38,

      You can deflect all you like, but you are following a playbook that some of us haven’t forgotten. The full monty, complete as it is with the necessary “othering” of some convenient scapegoat.

      If it walks like a duck, and quacks like a duck, it’s… guess what?!

      And predictably, you haven’t explained how destroying the mutually-beneficial cooperation of countries with common interests can possibly have the ability to stand up to the global interests that will exist anyway.

      And sufficient proof of the vulture capitalism that lies in wait for anyone foolish enough to believe your delusions is there right now in London visiting the Queen.

    225. Joe says:

      @Robert J Sutherland

      Numbers please. Not Rhetoric. Further – ive argued for healthy independent countries and against neoliberal predatory capitalism if you’d actually read it.

      Ok ill open up this question to all Wings readers:

      ‘Can you explain to me, in numbers, how open borders with the 3rd world can work to A: in real terms reduce world poverty, considering the number of people involved and birth rates and B: not compromise the social services and living conditions of ordinary people (of all races) of Europe?’

      Im ready to be convinced by numbers. But all im seeing from the left is rhetoric and smears (just look at Mr Sutherland). This goes to my main point in my post at 4:42PM. This is why the right is rising.

      Supplemental rule – if you insult me before you make your point (with numbers) you lose.

    226. schrodingers cat says:

      Robert J. Sutherland says:

      You can be sure of one thing, if the SNP were to gain absolutely every single MP in a UKGE under FPTP, although it would be a success of the first magnitude, the BritNat chorus would immediately switch to Plan B, and attempt to discount the result on the grounds that it lacked the necessary 50%+1 of the popular vote, never mind the whole registered electorate.
      ———————

      if we won 50+ seats on an indy specific manifesto but only 47% of the vote, i dont think it would give us an indy mandate.

      but it would ensure that we remained the biggest force in scottish politics by a long way and would continue to bolster our calls for indyref2 making the unionists position more untenable by the day.

      bear in mind, while the unionists argue for no more referendums they cant say the same for elections. indeed, we could force another holyrood election 6 months later if we wished.

      all at the same time as pursuing indyref2 through the courts

    227. schrodingers cat says:

      It’s rare, but these things can suddenly flip, seemingly out of nowhere.
      —————–
      yes they can, but as my above senario points out if we won 47% of the vote in a ge, could well have said 52%, i believe such a flip is about to happen in scotland, trumps nhs comments today are just another little push in that direction

      remember, that we dont need a very big flip to swing it in the first place.

    228. Robert J. Sutherland says:

      Joe @ 18:13,

      Havers and empty rhetoric. Calling for “numbers” (what “numbers”?) while carefully dodging the core issue. How are your “healthy independent countries” each on their own going to have a hope in hell of resisting organised global capital? It’s self-evidently absurd. You’re like the local sheriff claiming to be able to stand up to the Mafia on his own. Delusional bravado. It’s so preposterous you can only believe in something that stupid if you’re on some kind of strong medication.

      Or you are dressing up a festering old corpse in the clothes of the radical left with a view to deceive. In the hope that people will fall for it as some also did back when.

      Well, we’re not fooled, and we’re not playing.

    229. schrodingers cat says:

      stop press

      2 tory leader candidates withdraw from leadership race.
      (never heard of them and probably wont do so again)

      the 20th june date for new pm looks ever more likely

      prediction, a new ge called before 30th june? for after summer hols, eg sept 19?

    230. Mac says:

      @twathater 5:14

      Thanks, be my guest and do what you like wit it. It’s a bit OT for on here, so it looks like the second one got moderated 🙂

      Yeah, I know, we are not a poetry convention 🙂

    231. galamcennalath says:

      schrodingers cat says:

      such a flip is about to happen in scotland, trumps nhs comments today are just another little push in that direction

      Indeed. All the pressures are pushing towards Indy. There is nothing I am aware of pushing back towards the union/UK.

      At some point it will become obvious and beyond challenge that we are across the tipping point where Indy has become the will of the majority.

      Also, once beyond that point there is a positive feedback loop where Indy becomes normal, an expectation, and fence sitters want to be seen on the winning / popular side. Some unionist politicians and media may even reconsider where best their future lies.

      Trump, Farage, predatory trade deals, NHS under threat, opinions expressed by Tory leadership candidates, their new leader, the Brexit finale, and the continuous “shut up Scotland, do as we tell you” bombasting … that tipping point must be very close!

    232. admiral says:

      Oh, Scotland! Are you watching this sell out of all we hold dear?

      Oh, Scotland! What are you going to do – are you going to sit back and let it happen?

    233. CameronB Brodie says:

      Joe
      Let’s deconstruct your opinion.

      – “Its simple Cameron. A strong sense of nationalism (regardless of the kind) puts up borders. Borders get in the way of neoliberal big money efforts at undermining living standards, legal protections and wages of ordinary people.”

      You supply no evidence of a sense of nationalism putting up borders, though you do acknowledge there are different types of nationalism. Borders exist. Is Westminster not withdrawing from the EU in order to protect British borders and British culture?

      – “So they (big money) appeal to peoples sense of charity and decency by pretending that the massive problems of the 3rd world (such as more than 3 billion people living on 2.5 dollars per day) can be solved by opening the borders to any and all who would come.”

      You are talking about the American model of philanthropy. We pay taxes in Britain and these fund international development. The New Right, who brought us the full-English Brexit, are dead against international development, as they tend towards racist Neo-consevativism.

      – “So, using basic mathematics, you realise that introducing even 10% (300,000,000 people, almost half Europes population) of the 3rd world into Europe will do nothing except destroy social services, lower wages and generally grind down the working and lower middle class (when employment isnt great now anyway in many countries).”

      If this isn’t populist white resentment I don’t know what is. Immigration has a positive effect on the economy, stop selling benefit chauvinism.

      – “The best way instead would be to stop sending ‘foreign aid’ to dictators (who in return give multinationals access to resources) and terrorist organisations that destabilize their homes, and actually give those ordinary people a chance at building a decent life, in their own countries, might be the way to go?”

      Bigoted prejudice or empirical fact?

      – “But then the media and the political left will paint anyone who suggests it as an ‘ethno-nationalist’ a ‘far right winger’ and possibly even a ‘nazi’.”

      Culture is lost to intolerance if the vigilant allow intolerance to exist. It is the duty of ethical rationalist to call the far-right out.

      – “All the while the banks and the multinationals plunder the 3rd world, continue to try to undermine the working class by massive immigration into Europe and the US, while leftist politicians and activists along with the media and big tech squash dissent for them by being either payed actors or just useful idiots.”

      Definitely heading into conspiracy theory here, IMHO.

      – “For many of us we cant afford for things to get tighter. We cant afford to lose what social services are left. We cant afford the cost of living to increase. We cant afford for work to be sent to countries that have minimum or any labour protection such as China. We would rather take the slimey smears (white male resentment, anyone?) from the political left, the comfortable liberal professionals, the career politicians, the race-baiters and the utterly disgusting ‘journalists’.”

      Again, back to the racist trope that immigration undermines social cohesion. If you are determined to sell far-right white nationalism, at least be up front about it. Btw, do you work for VoteNobOrders as your patter sounds exactly like their keech.

      “This is where the working/middle class right wing is rising from in Europe and the US. No degree or PHd needed. I hope that helps.”

      So are you admitting you’re a right-wing racist?

    234. Welsh Sion says:

      stonefree @ 5.45 pm

      Indeed,

      https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Highlands_and_Islands_Medical_Service

      https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/NHS_Scotland

      Likewise, in my home country, covering much of South Wales and inspiring Beaven to create the NHS.

      https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tredegar_Medical_Aid_Society

    235. Welsh Sion says:

      twathater @ 5.14 pm
      mac @ 4.52 pm

      Happy to share this with you too – another one for you to sing on your AUOB marches.

      15. (of 20.)

      Scots Wha Hae – Reprise

      Scots, wha hae wi’ Salmond bled,
      Scots, wham Sturgeon aften led,
      Welcome tae yer gory bed
      Or tae destiny.

      Now’s the day, an’ now’s the hour:
      Seize oor chance a’ last fir power.
      See the fearties start tae cower.
      Scotland will be free!

      Wha will be a low appeaser?
      Wha will bow tae Lunnon’s Th’resa?
      Wha sae base as be a greaser?
      Let him turn an’ flee.

      Wha fir Scotland’s Pride an’ Aw’
      Freedom’s sword will strongly draw?
      Bondsman stand or Freeman fa’:
      Let him follow me.

      By th’ oppressive woes and pains,
      Of oor sons in servile chains,
      We will drain oor dearest veins
      But we shall be free!

      Lay Westminster oh so low.
      Traitors fall – like every foe.
      Liberty’s oors wi’ every blow!
      Let us vote fir SNP!
      ______

      [With acknowledgements]

    236. Dr Jim says:

      Scotland can be better if the SNP use the powers
      Scotland can sort out poverty if the SNP use the powers
      Scotland must do more under the SNP they have the powers

      We’re hearing an awful lot of this garbage in the news lately but the news never ever tells its listeners or viewers that Scotland, the Holyrood parliament and the SNP only control around of 58% of our own money and it’s reduced every time there’s a new Westminster budget

      It’s Scotlands money how about the news asking London for the figures of what they’re spending 42% of Scotlands money on

    237. Joe says:

      @Robert J Sutherland

      Nope the issue is in the numbers, as I began to detail above. 3 billion globally on 2.5 dollars per day. Global birth rates 2.5 per woman (higher in 3rd world but lets be conservative). European GDP declining. If the issue isnt numbers then why dont you help out the WOS fundraiser with a cool 1 million?

      I again refer all to my question at: 5:38PM

    238. CameronB Brodie says:

      It’s also the duty of ethical rationalists to call the far-left out as well. Totalitarianism is bad, mk.

    239. geeo says:

      JMD@4.49pm

      So, Zerohedge is THE definitive word on world news now, huh ?

      You really are reaching now.

    240. CameronB Brodie says:

      Joe
      If you don;t mind, you can ram your white nationalism.

      THE FISCAL IMPACT OF IMMIGRATION ON THE UK
      A REPORT FOR THE MIGRATION ADVISORY COMMITTEE

      3.1 SUMMARY OF PREVIOUS STUDIES

      Existing studies on the fiscal impact of migration on the UK most often find a small, positive net fiscal contribution––but the results are mixed. Calculating the revenue received and public goods and services consumed from such a diverse subset of the population is complex, and the results vary based on the assumptions made and methodologies used.

      Earlier efforts, from Gott and Johnston (2002)9 and Sriskandarajah et al (2005),10 found migrants to have a positive impact on the UK’s public finances – and to a greater extent than the native population. However, Rowthorn (2008)11 highlighted how sensitive these findings were to their underlying assumptions.

      Preston (2014) looked at the methodological challenges to estimating the fiscal impact of immigration, both from a static and a dynamic perspective, and discussed the benefits and limitations of different approaches.12 Finally, Nyman and Ahlskog (2018) recently conducted a study estimating the fiscal impact of intra-EEA migration, concluding that the effect was positive but small in the UK (around 0.3 percent of GDP).13

      https://assets.publishing.service.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attachment_data/file/759376/The_Fiscal_Impact_of_Immigration_on_the_UK.pdf

    241. Dave McEwan Hill says:

      schrodingers cat at 6.20pm

      Indeed we ony need one in ten to reverse the 2014 result and I’m sure we are there at the moment.The critical point is what our opponents do to try to drag that back if we set out to a referendum.
      A shorter campaign has huge benefits.

    242. schrodingers cat says:

      @gala

      re the feedback loop, once we go beyond 50%, continual refusal by wm to accept this will feed more nos to yes into this loop

      @Dave McEwan Hill

      yes, we are nearly there, once we reach the tipping point, history and our shared personal experience, show there is no way back.

      once we gain a majority, it is how we and wm react which will determine our future

      in 1916, support for an indy ireland was in the minority, it was the reaction of wm that turned the people towards indy

    243. geeo says:

      It is always telling when things/events help the indy cause.

      This place becomes riddled with agitators.

      Every single time.

      The media might try hide the truth about what Trump (and the U.S. Envoy) said about the NHS being part of the trade deal negotiations, but there will be a rising tide of fury amongst the people, especially those who cherish the NHS services across the Uk.

      People saw Trump say it, and t’internet ensures they cannot cover it up.

    244. schrodingers cat says:

      re +50% + infavour of an indy scotland.

      once this happens, the entire conversation about indy will change dramatically. many folk are critical of nicola, but her agenda is set precisely because we are still under the 50%, not by much i admit, but once over this point, the dialogue from holyrood, the snp and nicola will change

    245. Joe says:

      @ Robert J Sutherland
      @ CameronB Brodie

      So to go back to my original point. Why the left is losing ground in Europe:

      My question:
      ‘Can you explain to me, in numbers, how open borders with the 3rd world can work to A: in real terms reduce world poverty, considering the number of people involved and birth rates and B: not compromise the social services and living conditions of ordinary people (of all races) of Europe?’

      Answer: I am a nazi/right wing racist

      Right there is why the left is losing ground in Europe.

      CameronB brodie and Robert J Sutherland have lost because they give ad hominems and not numbers.

      Anybody else?

    246. CameronB Brodie says:

      Does it not tell you something when Scotland’s sense of political reason is under attack from well-connected international brand consultants and AstroTurf political activists who get day-long adverts on the BBC?

      Nationalism and Neoliberalism

      Supporters of free market economics have always been ambivalent towards nationalism. In an important book called ‘Nation, State and Economy’ (1919), the leading Austrian neoclassical thinker Ludwig von Mises argued that it was natural for human groups, who shared a common language, to adopt national identities, although these need not be coterminous with state boundaries, as the example of the Germans showed.1

      Given the practical difficulties of establishing a world state to oversee the capitalist system, nation-states were as good a basis for establishing the necessary legal framework for economic activity as any other; but when nationalism was used to mobilise popular support for state activities which impeded the competitive operation of the world market, then it became a danger to economic rationality, as understood by representatives of the Austrian school.

      Nationalism as the mobilising principle with which to establish a free economy was acceptable to them; nationalism as collective interference in the free economy was not.
      Neoliberalism follows neoclassical economics in relation to nationalism, as in so much else. Neoliberals tend not to describe themselves in these terms, but as supporters of globalisation, which they assume has to be capitalist in character. Turn to any of the contemporary works which extol the benefits of this process and we find nationalism indicted for an extensive litany of crimes, including making militarist threats to peace, erecting protectionist barriers to free trade and expressing racist hostility to migrants.

      The movements for an alternative globalisation which emerged in Seattle during 1999 are routinely accused of wanting to prevent third world development for selfish nationalist reasons.2 Yet if we look beyond the rhetoric of neoliberal publicists to the behaviour of neoliberal politicians and state managers we find a different attitude towards nationalism. As David Harvey has noted, “the neoliberal state needs nationalism of a certain sort to survive”.3 To understand why, we need to be clear about what neoliberalism is.

      The Consequences of Neoliberalism

      By ‘neoliberalism’ I mean those interlocking economic and social policies that have become the collective orthodoxy since the mid-1970s. Although the following list is by no means exhaustive, any attempt to catalogue them would include: flexible labour markets, deregulation of financial markets, removal of protective tariffs and subsidies on essential goods, privatisation of state-owned industries and utilities, commodification of services once provided free at the point of use, and the shift from direct and progressive to indirect and regressive taxation.

      These have been adopted by states, including the remaining few that claim to have superseded capitalism, of which China is incomparably the most important, and by transnational institutions like the World Bank and the World Trade Organisation, which police international development and (in)stability in the interests of the global order.

      The emergence of neoliberalism as a conscious ruling class strategy, rather than an esoteric ideological doctrine, took place in response to the end of the post-war boom in the 1970s, but in changed conditions created by that boom: above all, the unprecedented expansion of international trade, the advent of cross-border production in order to utilise world forces of production rather than those of one territorial state, and the creation of ‘offshore’ banking and flows of money capital unlimited by national boundaries….

      The Necessity for Nationalism in the Neoliberal Order

      Nationalism is the necessary ideological corollary of capitalism. The capitalist class in its constituent parts has a continuing need to retain territorial home bases for their operations.6 Why? Capitalism is based on competition, but capitalists want competition to take place on their terms; they do not want to suffer the consequences if they lose. In one sense then, they want a state to ensure that they are protected from these consequences – in other words, they require from a state more than simply providing an infrastructure; they need it to ensure that effects of competition are experienced as far as possible by someone else.

      A global state could not do this; indeed, in this respect it would be the same as having no state at all. For if everyone is protected then no-one is: unrestricted market relations would prevail, with all the risks that entails. The state therefore has to have limits, has to be able to distinguish between those who will receive its protection and those who will not. But the state cannot simply be the site of particular functions, with no ideological attachment; capitalists have at least to try to convince themselves that what they are doing is in a greater ‘national’ interest, even if it is plainly in their own.

      Without some level of self-delusion, mere gangsterism will result. Therefore, when Liah Greenfield describes the ‘spirit of capitalism’ as “the economic expression of the collective competitiveness inherent in nationalism – itself a product of its members’ collective investment in the dignity and prestige of the nation”, she is turning history on its head.7 It is the collective competitiveness of capitalism, expressed at the level of the state which requires nationalism as a framework within which competitiveness can be justified in terms of a higher aspiration than increased profit margins.

      If ‘Britain’ – or for that matter, ‘Scotland’ – is to be collectively competitive then this obviously means that individual British (or Scottish) companies must be individually competitive, but they are in competition with each other as much as with foreign rivals. In the course of this competition some will fail. Their failure, however is a contribution to national survival, comparable, perhaps, to the sacrifice of soldiers in the field: competition is the health of the nation, just as war was once held to be the health of the state….

      https://www.variant.org.uk/32texts/davidson32.html

    247. Robert Peffers says:

      @Tom says: 4 June, 2019 at 4:49 pm:

      … The NHS is devolved – you can’t have it back.”

      The SNHS is not devolved as it has been independently Scottish since the various NHS began. Matter of fact the pattern used for the several independent National Health Services came from the Scottish Highland regions and these were in operation before the NHS services began.

      The Scottish NHS predates devolution.

    248. CameronB Brodie says:

      Joe
      Scottish independence will not solve global inequality but it is a step in the right direction. How else will the developing world defend and assist itself, if Scots do not stand up and protect our human rights against English cultural chauvinism? We have all the advantages a developed economy can provide, so we have a responsibility to defend the rule-of-law. Now, for the last time, gonnae stop selling populist, xenophobic, keech.

    249. Robert J. Sutherland says:

      Joe @ 19:33,

      Nobody – but nobody – is talking about “open borders with the 3rd world”. Nice try. Quite a change in tone there from “global capitalism”. One fell flat, so try another variant of the “raise the drawbridge and the world will go away” Nirvana fallacy.

      You really are fishing in the wrong pool, pal.

    250. Legerwood says:

      Dr Jim says:
      4 June, 2019 at 4:33 pm
      @Carol 3:46pm

      “”The westminster government can dissolve the Scottish parliament at will,…””

      ……………..

      No. The Westminster Government cannot ‘dissolve’ the Scottish Parliament.

      The UK Supreme Court in its judgement on the Gina Millar appeal was quite clear that the Scottish Parliament would only cease to exist if the people of Scotland voted for that in a referendum.

      Of course, the Westminster Government can emasculate the Scottish Parliament by removing its powers and reducing its funding. It can also, as you have hinted, try to turn the people of Scotland by mounting a campaign suggesting the Scottish Parliament is ineffective. I doubt very much that would succeed and is more likely to add another substantial plank in the platform for the launch of independence.

      ………..

      On the subject of the NHS as part of a trade deal.

      The Americans will see it as one homogenous unit. The current set up of 4 separate entities would be seen as nothing more than an administrative construct that would not be seen as a barrier to all of it being on the table.

      Go back a few years to the attempts to set up a Transatlantic Trade & Investment Partnership (TTIP) between EU and USA. The NHS was on the table then. Under EU rules David Cameron could have taken it off the table – rin fenced it – but he did not. It was the EU that put the kibosh on the whole thing- and if I remember correctly an Irish Commissioner led the resistance to TTIP – and thus saved the NHS but soon we will not be in the EU.

      Any claims by any Tory, or Labour, politician that they would protect the NHS should never be believed.

    251. schrodingers cat says:

      Graeme says:
      4 June, 2019 at 2:44 pm
      windows is a virus it’s malicious software, don’t use it you don’t have to, there’s a far better alternative

      ——————–

      agreed, ive bin using unix and then linux since way back
      many entire countries with their own government’s support and backing have switched entirely to ubuntu (xubuntu etc) thus in one single stroke removed microsofts influence completely from their respective countries

      once independent, this is something i will campaign for

    252. schrodingers cat says:

      @Graeme

      I once decided to switch my wife and children pc’s from windows xp to Ubuntu 7.10 Gutsy Gibbon so I went onto one of the many ubuntu very helpful forums to ask if anyone had a winxp skin i could install so they wouldnt know the difference.

      got the answer…

      why on earth would you want to make yer pc look like winxp ??? 🙂

    253. CameronB Brodie says:

      re. Scotland’s democratic deficit. This is a major factor in hindering Scotland’s economic and social development. If Scotland is not prepared to stand up against the injustice of arbitrary power (see the full-English Brexit), how will the developing world fare? Enough of British imperialism already, it denies Scots “internal sovereignty” and is detrimental to the cause of global distributive justice.

      Power and inequality in the global political economy

      Abstract

      Inequality in all its forms is the defining global problem and increasingly the defining political problem of our age. A monumental body of scholarly research seeks to understand the drivers behind the vast and accelerating patterns of socio-economic inequality in the global political economy. This article, an adapted version of the 2016 Martin Wight Memorial Lecture, contributes to this effort by focusing on a dimension of the picture which has received surprisingly little attention, namely, the implications for socio-economic inequality of the particular form of industrial organization that has come to underpin the contemporary global economy – one organized around global value chains and global production networks.

      It proposes an approach which sees inequality as arising at the intersections of three dimensions of asymmetry – asymmetries of market power, asymmetries of social power and asymmetries of political power – which underpin and crystallize around global value chains. It explores these dynamics in the particular arena of labour and labour exploitation in global value chains, as a means of shedding a valuable wide-angle beam on the big questions of power and inequality in the contemporary global political economy.

      https://academic.oup.com/ia/article/93/2/429/2997439

    254. Robert Peffers says:

      @ Joe says:4 June, 2019 at 5:38 pm:

      ” … give me an answer with numbers. I really would love to have a bright outlook. Unfortunately the maths doesnt work for me on this and im left less than optimistic.”

      Aye! But the grammar doesn’t seem to work for you either. In any case it really isn’t a question of numbers in the first place.

      It is a question of system and which system is applied to the perceived problem. Before going any further just consider the United Kingdom as a model of how it cannot be made to work.

      As long as there is a situation of them and us then it cannot work. The last fundamental change began, not with the Tories in power buy with Labour. The previous system of taxation was far from equitable but was a damned sight better than what was to follow.

      The tax system, although a bit skewed in favour of the wealthiest, was far more equitable until Labour deliberately changed the basic tax system from direct taxation, (tax on earnings and wealth), to indirect taxation, (tax on goods and services). Great economists had long taught that well organised direct taxation placed the main burden of taxation upon those most able to pay. Indirect taxation places the greatest burden of taxation upon those least able to pay.

      Thus the gap between the richest and the poorest was deliberately changed to the disadvantage of the poorest and least able to pay. Add to that the propensity of those most wealthy to evade taxation and we were on the road to exactly what we have today.

      While those most wealthy preach that, “We need austerity measures”, and, “We are all in this together”, it sounds rather hollow when the statistics show that in this time of austerity that we are all in together the richest strata of society have much more than doubled their own personal wealth and you are not suffering austerity if you can be increasing your wealth.

      So there is the problem on a United Kingdom basis but what of the international situation? The wealth of the World is much more than adequate to sustain the Worlds current population but while the few are salting wealth they will never actually be able to spent before they die there are little children starving to death. Birth rates are over high due to ignorance and lack of cheap to provide birth control.

      In any case modern money system have long since cast of being tied to the Gold Standard and governments can literally print money and put it into circulation. As in quantitative easing.

      So there you go, Joe, perhaps it is time to reconsider your grasp of mathematics and money systems.

    255. Robert Peffers says:

      @stonefree says: 4 June, 2019 at 5:45 pm:

      ” … My understand is that it pre-date the Aneurin Bevan version by a short time about a year, but the system was in existance to all intents and purposes,existed in Scotland from 1913 … “

      Yes, stonefree, and your understanding is bang on the money.

    256. Terry callachan says:

      To cubby..

      Keep taking your medicine cubby get well soon.

    257. Brian Doonthetoon says:

      Hi peeps.

      RE: SNHS.

      My understanding is (and Robert Peffers confirms it) that the SNHS has never been “devolved”. The ENHS was launched via an Act of Parliament in 1947; the SNHS came into being in 1948, via a similar act so it has always been a separate organisation.

      A bit of history here, covering the setup of the Highlands and Islands Medical Service (HIMS) in 1913 onwards.

      https://www.electricscotland.com/history/medical/nhs_scotland.htm

      HIMS was used as a model for the NHS.

    258. ronnie anderson says:

      One of my older Brothers lives in Scarbourgh went to the Health Centre yesterday out of 11 Doctors only 2 were in the surgery , my brothers Doctor retired months ago & hasn’t been replaced .

    259. Ken500 says:

      Hans Rosling Swedish poverty economist/statistician died 2017.

      Showed poverty in the world and population slowing down. Absolute poverty eradicated in 10 years?

    260. Col.Blimp IV says:

      Welsh Sion at 6:51

      I wonder, do you know the name of the Welsh poet, I pinched the theme of this ditty from?

      It would be churlish of me to post this without at least trying to acknowledge his co-authorship.

      We’re looking up England’s arsehole
      Jo, Kes and Ruthie and me
      When we’re looking up England’s arshole
      What wondrous sights shall we see

      I’m looking up England’s arseholes
      Jerry’s, Boris’ and Nigels, all three
      As I look up at England’s arsholes
      I wonder, why are they shitting on me

      We’re still looking up England’s arsehole
      We’ve been waiting a very long time
      Just looking up England’s arsehole
      Hoping to see some sun-shine

    261. Robert Peffers says:

      @Joe says: 4 June, 2019 at 6:13 pm:

      ” … Numbers please.

      In the first place it isn’t a matter of numbers, and it never has been so, and secondly it strikes me you wouldn’t understand the numbers if the bit your bum.

      Think on this, Joe, Her Majesty, the Queen of England, just provided a meal for the POTUS that the cost of providing could have fed every underfed child in London.

      Now there are so called, “National Treasures”, all over London from the National Museum, via the National Ballet to the Greenwich Observatory.

      Every now and then we read of a vast sum of money being spent to purchase it, “For the Nation”, to prevent it being bought by some private collector, or perhaps a foreign nations national museum. There are people in London sleeping in cardboard boxes on the Streets of London – don’t you think that the vast sums spent to retain something like daubs of paint on a canvas are of less value than people’s lives?

      Now I’ve not been to London for many years now but I used to frequently go there in the course of my job. I remember well how there were places, cheek by jewel, where you could stop and buy a cup of tea and a biscuit and rest your feet while trailing round seeing the sights.

      In some, quite respectable places you could get a reasonable snack for less than a pound yet a couple of doors away the very same snack would cost 5 or 6 pound and into the bargain it would cost a fiver just to hang your coat up.

      There was a reason for the differential – it was to keep the out the hoi polio. Then I could see another example of this idiocy. Outside these places would be double yellow lines and outside the expensive places there would be parked very expensive vehicles often with parking tickets stuck under wipers.

      I do not suppose anything has changed much since those days, Joe, except inflation will have devalued the money but not the way it is unevenly spread and divided out.

    262. Dr Jim says:

      @Legerwood

      The Tories can create the power to do anything they want whenever they want and the people of Scotland will unfortunately do nothing because one half of Scotland desires nothing more than to be rid of Holyrood because they see it as representing the SNP (which we know it doesn’t of course) but they don’t see it that way and would be more than happy to have Mundells Scotland office (which is growing bigger by the day) take over

      It’s why I believe the SNP don’t front the UK up as many people would like them to because the consequences of shoving too hard at a slammed door might be worse than the current sneaky softly softly approach, that’s why I believe the SNP have been trying so hard to convince at least one Unionist party to stand by Scotland with them, but I don’t think one will, the Lib Dems and Labour will make a wee protest then lie down and do or die, the Tories will cheer because they’ll always get a job under Mundell

      When Boris becomes King Prime megalomaniac Boris, a very real danger to Scotland will exist, this is a man who threatened the President of Mauritius with trade starvation on an open telephone line knowing he was being recorded, what’s he prepared to do to Scotland to keep hold of it

      Boris Johnson is the biggest threat to Independence or even devolution, the man’s a nut job and I believe *when* he wins Scotland will be in trouble because he will do anything and he doesn’t care about legalities as most Tories don’t but he’ll carry his threats out

      What they feel was theirs to lend they’ll take back without a second thought, they never wanted devolution in the first place

    263. ronnie anderson says:

      http://www.facebook.com/events/589575598196993/

      Please Share & a date for your diaries , more information will be posted as things develop .

    264. Breeks says:


      schrodingers cat says:
      4 June, 2019 at 7:32 pm
      re +50% + infavour of an indy scotland.

      once this happens, the entire conversation about indy will change dramatically. many folk are critical of nicola, but her agenda is set precisely because we are still under the 50%, not by much i admit, but once over this point, the dialogue from holyrood, the snp and nicola will change

      I don’t think anybody would dispute that, but the exasperation many feel is the bizarre, and frankly very unpolitical presumption that the desired and required swing in the polls is somehow going to be achieved without anything resembling a constructive and proactive campaign designed to bring it about.

      Brexit, added to Scotland’s Remain vote set up a heaven sent Constitutional stand off, but even at this late stage of the game, the Scottish Government has seen precious little return for its strategy. For all we know the minute swing towards YES might have as much to do with NO voters dying off to be replaced with YES voters reaching voting age.

      To be blunt, it appears like the Scottish Government has seen Brexit as a great imponderable disruption to the Independence Masterplan, and progress towards Indy is on perpetual hold until the troubled waters of Brexit are behind us. If that is true, it is both a humongous opportunity squandered, and a depressing betrayal of widespread aspiration. It lets down both Scotland’s people with strong pro European affinity, and also lets down Scotland’s armchair Constitutionalists who expect something more to be made of Scotland’s Sovereignty.

      The problem I have, and I don’t think I’m alone, is that a brilliant and inspired SNP Government with a rigid top secret strategy which cannot be disclosed for security reasons, is virtually indistinguishable from a lame Government with no clear strategy, and no capacity to seize the initiative and actually win a campaign to deliver Independence. It’s very easy to keep a strategy under tight lipped security when the strategy hasn’t yet been written because it’s waiting for providence to deliver an open goal.

      I keep hearin the haunting words of Donald Tusk to Theresa May, “Please do not waste this time”. Why wasn’t the Section 30 Order taken care of two years ago? Why haven’t we instigated any Constitutional Test cases to better define Scotland’s Sovereignty? It’s a harsh question to ask, but in terms of objective quantifiable progress, has Scotland’s approach towards Independence and the end of the UK Union actually been any more effective and less delusional that the UK’s abysmal handling of Brexit?

      Ok, Scotland has been ignored. Scotland has been badly treated, sold out and humiliated. So what???. Seen from a Westminster Tory perspective, Scotland has been effectively “contained” and prevented from disrupting Brexit and possible UK/ US deregulated Trade Deals. Shut up Scotland, get back in your box. Yes Ma’am, but Yes Ma’am with a frown… That’ll show them!

    265. Bobp says:

      Scotland you heard it from the great satan himself. So either you vote for independence or you lose your SNHS. No ifs,no buts.

    266. schrodingers cat says:

      Why wasn’t the Section 30 Order taken care of two years ago?
      ————

      it was, but before the s30 demand process could be completed, treeza called a ge and snp support dropped to 38%.

      it is this that has dictated our position since then. no conspiracy needed

    267. Dr Jim says:

      I’ve never seen official polls with the inclusion of 16-17 year olds on Independence, we know that as a grouping they’re heavily in favour of Independence, is that where the numbers are going to come from I wonder

    268. Robert J. Sutherland says:

      Breeks @ 21:15,

      Yes, but c’mon, if the people of Scotland were as assertive as people almost anywhere else, it would be a dawdle in the park for the SG, wouldn’t it? The trick is to “unstick the sticky” – the preternaturally sticky actually – by acting so as to engage with them while hoping the rest of us can just thole it a wee while longer waiting for them to catch up. In an environment where almost all the media is full-on against us. It’s not just in China that the media is actively suppressing ideas and events.

      And why should the entire resposibility fall on the lonely shoulders of the SG anyway? We should all be involved. Even the Art.50 challenge needed the support of an English QC, Jo Maugham.

      I suggest it’s mainly we (with some honourable exceptions) who are letting the side down, not the SG. Why has no-one here brought a prosecution against Leaver Liars like Boris, eg., or a crowd-funded constitutional case to raise awareness…?

    269. brian lucey says:

      @pete
      “Nicola’s new best pal, where you have to make part payments every time you visit the GP, go to A&E or stay in hospital.”
      Unless you have what is called a Medical Card; in that case most everything is free. Prescription charges are capped at 20e per month.
      There is also a GP Visit card. Slightly less benefits.
      https://www2.hse.ie/medical-cards/

      We might also note that Ireland has a slightly higher life expectancy than the UK and a good dela higher than the USA. It has a much lower lifetime rate of maternal death than the USA and slightly less than the UK ; lower neonatal mortality than either; More physicians per 1000 persons than either ; a much lower death rate than either (All data from World Bank via Google Public Data.

      The HSE (Health Service Executive) in Ireland gets a lot of stick. But objective data suggests that the HES and the NHS give more or less comparable outcomes. And better than the USA.

    270. They have been running down the English and Welsh NHS since the time of the Eton pig fancier Cameron,

      and with the help of the corrupted BBC/MSM they then show up the faults in the system (that they created),

      which makes it easier to justify selling it off to their friends and financial backers,

      this is why the BBC,Herald,STV, Conservative and Unionist and Brutish Labour and the Brutish LibDem`s in Scotland always criticize/lie about our own highly effective Scottish NHS,

      run down,critcize,sell off.

    271. Robert J. Sutherland says:

      schrodingers cat @ 21:33,

      True that. The jury is maybe still out in the way that the SNP handled the unwanted 2017 campaign, but in any event there was a substantial body of voters who were then not ready for a new indyref, and Ruthie and her little Red Tory enabler were able and willing to cash in on that.

      However, because of the Brexit they are muddling to bring about, the two main parties are the ones who are paying the far greater penalty now, while the SNP is looking principled and solid, despite the ongoing attempts of some recalcitrant Leavers to undermine it. As they say, Karma’s a bitch.

      What we all need to do now is find the key by which to appeal to Remainers and finally convince them that all their options bar one have run out, so that the only practical way forward for all of us is to get out of this deaf and suffocating Union, and do so before it’s too late. If we wait too long, Brexit will become normalised among them, and we’ll have missed the last bus out of town.

      We are still gaining credibility at the moment, but please, peeps, don’t assume that events will continue to enable us to progress for ever. Life and politics can be fickle. Fortuna is also a bitch.

    272. Brian Doonthetoon says:

      Hi Breeks at 9:15 pm.

      You typed,

      “I don’t think anybody would dispute that, but the exasperation many feel is the bizarre, and frankly very unpolitical presumption that the desired and required swing in the polls is somehow going to be achieved without anything resembling a constructive and proactive campaign designed to bring it about.”

      Did you take part in the “constructive and proactive campaign designed to bring it about” in Galashiels on Saturday? Quite a number were there from my ‘neck of the woods’ (Dundee/Angus).

      I believe it took place in your ‘neck of the woods’ so I assume you took part in the march and rally, although I didn’t bump into you – and nobody else said to me, “Ken whuh? Eh’ve juss met Breeks!”

    273. Robert Peffers says:

      @Robert J. Sutherland says:

      ” … Yes, but c’mon, if the people of Scotland were as assertive as people almost anywhere else, it would be a dawdle in the park for the SG, wouldn’t it?”

      Well, Robert, there is another scenario that I don’t think I’ve ever seen mooted.

      Alex Salmon was, perhaps, a great rabble rouser and he did indeed make a great difference by raising support for independence above the required level – only for it to drop again like a stone, and not just by falling back down but by falling back down very, very fast. I believe not just because of, “The Vow”.

      This was not just a problem in that the support would rise again, for it is rising again, but there was the lesson to be learned that in politics a week is a very short time and those who swither can swither down just as fast as they swithered up.

      However these lessons have been learned and acted upon and what the SG is building now is not a swither up and down again but a slower but surer and committed movement to independence support.

      Voters of the Swithering sort are not to be depended upon and it is the slow committed converts we must seek now.

      Rebel rousing is great for a quick riot in the streets but it is too easy to put down. The numbers are climbing slowly but surely now. Events are also going our way now as Westminster flails about with everyone fighting everyone else on many fronts.

      When the figures go up and stay up will be the time to go for independence not when they go up and down like a … well perhaps I best not use that analogy – some Wingers are a puckle ower easy tae embarrass.

    274. The recent report by the Office for National Statistics showing that the UK has had the lowest rate of improvement in life expectancy since 2011 among western nations other than the USA,

      has added to claims that `austerity` is the only credible explanation.

      Any MP that voted for an `austerity` budget has blood on their hands.

    275. Joe says:

      @Robert Peffers

      Hi Robert. Thanks for taking the time to answer my question, not with numbers I notice but its a start.

      Firstly – my main point was to show why ordinary people are turning to the right when they are faced with disgusting hysterical leftists that shower abuse on anybody who even asks a question. The numbers of migrants etc wasnt actually the main point. I think this has served a good example.

      Second – the numbers do count. To pretend otherwise is really nonsense and wont convince any impartial person with a brain of your argument. What limits do we set? How much welfare is affordable without increasing national debt? Which parts of Europe need migrants and which dont? What skills are needed? My question involved all of Europe and the general left-wing stance towards mass migration which is basically – don’t ask too many questions.

      So your answer was basically ‘there’s a lot of wealth going around that’s doing nothing for anybody…’

      Ok then, and im the one who doesn’t know numbers? That’s nebulous and is the ‘go to’ socialist argument but I still don’t understand why its a bad thing to suggest that we try to build up poorer countries by investing in them and not giving aid to dictators?

      Anyway, ive had enough of economically illiterate evasive lefties trying to avoid stark reality while pretending im the one who doesn’t understand.

      Here’s something that might interest you. Youtube: Steve Baker MP at the historic debate in UK Parliament on Money Creation.

      This is a parliamentary debate on the fractional reserve banking system. This is the holy grail topic for anyone interested in inequality. Anyway, cheers.

    276. Cubby says:

      Terry Callachan@8.29pm

      Callachan you ain’t no independence supporter and you ain’t no doctor either. A total phoney.

      The worst type of phoney a Britnat tosser.

    277. kapelmeister says:

      Vote No in indyref2 to lose any say about what happens to Scotland, to lose the Scottish NHS, to lose the powers of Scotland’s Parliament, to lose jobs and to lose self-respect.

      Vote Yes to retain all of the above and to gain a lot more.

    278. kapelmeister says:

      Kit Malthouse has dropped out of the Tory leadership contest in order to spend more time with his obscurity.

    279. ronnie anderson says:

      Robert Peffers

      [When the figures go up and stay up will be the time to go for independence not when they go up and down like a … well perhaps I best not use that analogy] .

      Kin ah help U oot here Robert
      http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JoW1CaV59R0.

    280. chicmac says:

      Since we seem to be waxing lyrical tonight, an old one from me, updated.

      Behold the carcass of a once proud and noble animal in its ruin on the Plain of Retribution!

      A vast putrid pile which rots and decays and violates the very air.

      In truth, this aged Leviathan, the last of its kind, had commenced its corruption long ere this final demise.

      The Paparasites which had fed on Laborusaurus Scotus, for that was its name, now reduced to whimpering prodders and pokers, try, hopelessly, to bring their former provider back to life.

      They had, fleetingly, ran to its nemeses, Nicola the sure-footed, the great Golden Queeb of Irvinia, yea even as she wielded the fatal blow.

      But no succour were they to find there, for she is a Quenn of hard justice.

      And so they return, pathetically, to the thing they knew, the thing whose time is past, the thing that will soon, mark their own passing.

      But as the Sun sets in the West, so it rises in the East and the Land will fill with the good light and will renew and all will prosper and attain fulfilment.

      At least for a while.

    281. chicmac says:

      Queen – ouch! Twice.

    282. Cubby says:

      Cassandra is Daisy Walker and I claim my prize.

      What no prize! Not even a bunch of ordinary daisies.

      Wait a minute – Rock also kept making forecasts of impending doom and no one believed him either. So is Rock really Cassandra?

      Naw it’s you Daisy.

    283. Robert J. Sutherland says:

      Robert Peffers @ 22:17:

      the lesson to be learned that in politics a week is a very short time and those who swither can swither down just as fast as they swithered up.

      =laugh=

      You make some fair points. Indeed I was saying something similar at the close of my posting before this.

      But there is also this undefinable but nevertheless tangible thing in politics commonly known as “momentum”. (Not to be confused with the Corbyn fan club of that name.)

      Which was the point that galamcennalath was making upthread @ 18:37 but in different words, and s~cat thereafter.

      It may still be “sticky” right now, but given another campaign and rightful media exposure, this thing might not just inch over the line, it could swing big.

      (It’s going to be juicy. Just imagine an indy promo video with a clip of El Gordo in 2014 strutting in his privileged little bubble proclaiming “egalité” and “leaders not leavers” followed by a clip of the HoC jeering at IB or Joanna, then Sajid Javid proclaiming “never in his lifetime”…)

    284. CameronB Brodie says:

      re. the internal colonisation of the Scots psyche. Why else would a nation willing choose to Brexit along with England? Especially when Scotland has already indicated it does not want to Brexit. Twice, if you include the recent EU election.

      Decolonising psychology creates possibilities for social change
      http://theconversation.com/decolonising-psychology-creates-possibilities-for-social-change-65902

    285. Brian Doonthetoon says:

      Hi Cubby.

      How can you possibly link Daisy Walker and Cassandra?

      I have met both Daisy and Daisy Walker at a couple of rallies – Bannockburn and Dumfries if my memory serves me right.

      However, I have never met Cassandra.

      I fear your paranoia is causing you to lose the plot.

    286. CameronB Brodie says:

      The only thing keeping Scotland at the politically mercy of Westminster, is our fear of freedom. Time for some liberation psychology?

      Decolonizing Psychological Science:
      Introduction to the Special Thematic Section

      Abstract

      Despite unprecedented access to information and diffusion of knowledge across the globe, the bulk of work in mainstream psychological science still reflects and promotes the interests of a privileged minority of people in affluent centers of the modern global order. Compared to other social science disciplines, there are few critical voices who reflect on the Euro-American colonial character of psychological science, particularly its relationship to ongoing processes of domination that facilitate growth for a privileged minority but undermine sustainability for the global majority.

      Moved by mounting concerns about ongoing forms of multiple oppression (including racialized violence, economic injustice, unsustainable over-development, and ecological damage), we proposed a special thematic section and issued a call for papers devoted to the topic of “decolonizing psychological science”. In this introduction to the special section, we first discuss two perspectives – liberation psychology and cultural psychology – that have informed our approach to the topic.

      We then discuss manifestations of coloniality in psychological science and describe three approaches to decolonization – indigenization, accompaniment, and denaturalization – that emerge from contributions to the special section. We conclude with an invitation to readers to submit their own original contributions to an ongoing effort to create an online collection of digitally linked articles on the topic of decolonizing psychological science.

      Keywords
      coloniality; decolonial theory; epistemic violence; cultural psychology; liberation psychology; indigenization; accompaniment; denaturalization; colonial mentality

    287. CameronB Brodie says:

      And here’s one for David Torrance, with his degree in pychology and shit. Tory fan-boy wank that he is.

      Notes on decolonizing psychology: from one Special Issue to another

      Abstract

      In this article, we describe a special thematic section on the topic of “Decolonizing Psychological Science” that we have edited for the Journal of Social and Political Psychology. Three approaches to decolonization were evident in contributions to the ongoing project. In the indigenous resistance approach, researchers draw upon local knowledge to modify “standard” practice and produce psychologies that are more responsive to local realities. In the accompaniment approach, “global expert” researchers from hegemonic centers travel to marginalized communities to work alongside local inhabitants in struggles for social justice.

      In the denaturalization approach, researchers draw upon local knowledge and experience of marginalized communities as an epistemic resource to resist the coloniality of knowledge and being in hegemonic psychology. The task of decolonization requires more than the production of local psychologies attuned to the conditions of particular communities. In addition, it requires decolonial versions of global psychology that are conducive to the wellness of all humanity beyond a dominant Eurocentric subset.

      https://www.researchgate.net/publication/321511608_Notes_on_decolonizing_psychology_from_one_Special_Issue_to_another

    288. CameronB Brodie says:

      And here’s one with right-wing cultural conservatives in mind. Full text.

      Decolonizing “Multicultural” Counseling through Social Justice
      https://www.researchgate.net/publication/321552511_Decolonizing_Multicultural_Counseling_through_Social_Justice

    289. David says:

      Brexit with a deal, Brexit without a deal, what’s the difference?

      H or C, what’s the difference?

    290. Petra says:

      I never thought I would say it but we all owe Trump a great big favour now for letting the NHS cat out of the bag (did you see Big T’s phizog when he did so, lol?) and in doing so waking up the non-political individuals in Scotland. In fact we all owe the person who put the question to him a favour. It was the talk of the ‘steamy’ that I frequented last night with a number of people left shaken and looking horrified. Wakey, wakey time. So Trumps visit hasn’t been in vain after all with some politicians coming out of the woodwork and stating that the NHS won’t be privatised under their watch. Boris of course is all for it. It’ll be interesting now to see how the PM wannabees will manage to get around this one over the next few weeks or so. We should also think of crowdfunding to get some NHS billboards out there, imo, in case anyone missed the ‘NHS’ news yesterday which was being broadcast on all channels.

      http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/donald-trump-nhs-trade-deal-woody-johnson-matt-hancock-a8940861.html

    291. Liz g says:

      Petra @ 12.47
      Yes I was thinking that too Petra,we shouldn’t let this go!
      The British Nationalists can’t hide from it and they will be rushing to reassure everyone they would never sell the NHS.
      We just need to keep asking if the Tories can be trusted to keep their word.
      I hope the Westminster MPs especially Dr Philippa make some noise about it too!!
      And one of Mays last acts as Prim Minister was to fail to defend the/our NHS….
      I’m also quite amused that this is what Trumps visit will be remembered for and that won’t please him either 🙂

    292. Dr Jim says:

      Not just the NHS as people normally think of hospitals but big pharmaceutical is even more £billions to American drug companies, the machinery of health right down to the beds and bedpans

    293. Breeks says:


      Brian Doonthetoon says:
      4 June, 2019 at 10:13 pm
      Hi Breeks at 9:15 pm.

      Did you take part in the “constructive and proactive campaign designed to bring it about” in Galashiels on Saturday? Quite a number were there from my ‘neck of the woods’ (Dundee/Angus).

      My mistake Brian, I didn’t realise that was organised by the SNP.

      And yes I do attend AUOB marches when I can, but no I couldn’t make Gala. I back AUOB 100%, in principle and actuality. To me, the marches mean YES still lives.

    294. K1 says:

      They used EU citizens as ‘bargaining chips’ in their negotiations with the EU27 over the last 3 years.

      We’ve all known this for over 5 years wrt to NHS et al. The cat was never in the bag, the fact that the media are ‘acting’ as if this is news should alert only the dullest dullard to the clear and present danger of what this ‘means’ in real terms.

      NHS? Think Fracking. Think Guns. Think of your worst idea of what kind of world you want to live in. Think Brexit.

      Credit where it’s due, long terms propaganda really does work.

      Cunts.

    295. Luigi says:

      The threat to the NHS is the British establishment’s Achilles heel and this must be driven hard during the Indy campaign. If there is anything pensioners fear aside from a frozen weekly allowance or losing their bus pass, it is any threat to the NHS. This is not scaremongering. Trump already indicated it is on the table and the Btexiteers failed to challenge this. This is our cue. The threat to the NHS is a powerful message that many soft NOs will pay attention to.

    296. Skintybroko says:

      BBC Scotland promoting some negotiator who worked with the Obama administration saying that the NHS is only a bargaining chip and will be dismissed early on in the negotiations – Britnat to their core so non Indy supporters can diss any argument because the BBC said so

    297. Ken500 says:

      May is nearly gone. The Tories are toast. Nicola is still there. Support increased. An IndyRef in 2020.

      Hans Rosling economic/statistical. Swedish died 2017. The world population is slowing down and absolute poverty will be eradicated in a few years.

      The migration into Europe is caused by US/UK illegal wars. It costs European countries £Billions. The UK not paying the full cost of the mess. The Tories include the foreign students in migration figures. They are fully funded and bring economic benefit and go home after they study. The migration figures are only 50,000. Less are coming from the EU and more from Asia.

      The population in Scotland has hardly changed from the 1900’s. 5 million. It has only gone up since Devolution 2000. 5.2Million. There are reports migrants are no longer coming because of Brexit. Scotland was depopulated by Westminster policies. The historic Clearances and £Billions being illegally and secretly taken from Scotland to fund London S/E. Thatcher etc. Scotland has had to pay for illegal wars, financial fraud and tax evasion. Paying loans on monies not borrowed or spent in Scotland. On average £20Billion of Westminster mismanagement.

      Brexit will ruin the Scottish economy, The EU costs Scotland nothing and brings benefit. Grants, CAP payments and shared Defence costs, Nearest biggest market. Good social Laws etc.

    298. Petra says:

      WGD:- ‘The UK offers Scotland a future as a chlorinated chicken.’

      https://weegingerdug.wordpress.com/2019/06/04/the-uk-offers-scotland-a-future-as-a-chlorinated-chicken/

    299. Breeks says:

      We are fools to believe England’s NHS has been removed from the bargaining table by a single off hand remark by Trump. Hasn’t Liam Fox has been in cahoots with US Medicare and Health Insurance Companies for years? The whole ethos of the failed US TTIP trade deal planned with Europe was driven by the same Corporate interests, but thankfully Europe saw right through it. Brexit is merely their consolation prize.

      Look at the decades of NHS criticism designed to convince the UK public that the NHS is an overblown leviathan that is too great a burden and has to be sold off. They said the same about the trains, the power utilities, and all nationalised industries which were owned by the public. It’s their modus operandi. It’s how they steal public assets.

      I say “we’re” the fools if we believe it, because our own NHS would suffer direct and indirect consequences, and there’s that ever present cross-border buzzword “deregulation”. The only way Scotland would be safe is if we have the power and economic muscle of Europe at our backs.

      There is a danger in dealing with these issues superficially over what Trump said or didn’t say. They are all liars, or had we forgotten? It’s like the chlorinated chicken. The problem isn’t the chlorine, the problem bit is before we get to the chlorine, where poor practices allow pathogens, contaminants to proliferate, and inferior hygiene produces a meat which needs dowsed by a chemical treatment just to make it safe to eat. The chlorine round your chicken is delivering a similar process of sterilisation to the chlorine in your swimming pool.. full of well, you know what… European standards ensure a much higher standard for hygiene and the food is never filthy enough at any stage to require decontamination.

      European standards aren’t perfect by a long shot, but least livestock are recognised a sentient animals who feel pain and distress, and their husbandry demands that this is respected. The UK has already indicated it plans to adopt a lesser standard whereby livestock is not recognised a sentient, but merely product.

      Once you understand that, that chlorinated chicken is neither about chlorine, nor chicken, but grossly inferior standards and deregulation, and that little epiphany of doom potentially applies to every retail product on the market.

      And even if that is too much to figure out, just ask yourself which is safer, the consumer regime which wants to improve standards ever higher, or the consumer regime which wants reduce standards to the minimum exposure to filth we find acceptable.

    300. RM says:

      Pomp & ceremony, it’s the 21st century not medieval times hope nobody from the SNP or Scottish GREEN party are involved in this farce. The Scottish government have to start behaving as an independent country have a bit more backbone, approach Labour and conservative for independence get a deal going.

    301. Sinky says:

      Brace yourself on GMS ppb on behalf of Tory party one party leadership contenderplans to strengthen the Union is to get more Union jacks to fly at Edinburgh Festival just like the Highland Show which hijacks Scottish produce to claim our meat etc is Great British

    302. Footsoldier says:

      Switched on Radio Scotland to hear Glen Campbell talking mid-topic about how the Tory leader contenders would strengthen the Union, and if I heard correctly, Matt Hancock’s plan would be to “fly more Union Jack’s at the Edinburgh Festival because it is our festival too”. Clearly, a deep thinker with a good understanding of Scotland.

      There were other proposals from other contenders but I didn’t catch them but might be worth a re-listen.

    303. Hamish100 says:

      ….flag waving brit nat style. The day the apron stops flying over Edinburgh castle I will be happy.He called it a union jack too. Naughty. Military types will be gnashing their gums.

    304. Petra says:

      Support The National newspaper, folks.

      WGD:- ‘The loose screw in the Scottish media.’

      https://weegingerdug.wordpress.com/2019/06/04/the-loose-screw-in-the-scottish-media/

    305. Petra says:

      BBC D-Day commemoration. No elderly Scots left to tell their story? From what I’ve heard / read 25% to 35% of the UK Forces were Scots and yet there’s not a Scottish accent to be heard on this television programme this morning. Oh wait, I spoke too soon. The BBC has just informed us that it was a Scottish Royal Air Force meteorologist, Group Captain James Stagg, who convinced Eisenhower to change the date of the invasion which was absolutely crucial to its success.

      Meanwhile if you’re a Scottish veteran and you’re not getting a wee freebie holiday to Portsmouth / Normandy, care of the BBC, you can seemingly Call Kaye from home in Scotland and tell her your D-Day story instead. Guid enuff fur us.

    306. gus1940 says:

      The reason given by our colonial masters for the flying of The Butcher’s Apron at Edinburgh Castle is because it is a military establishment.

      However, I would like to know just who owns the Castle – is it WM’s MOD or is it HES?

      HES has responsibility for the management and running of the castle so I would suggest that they are the owners and that any MOD personnel stationed there are HES’s tenants.

      If that is the case I would suggest that The Saltire should replace The Butcher’s Apron.

      Over the last few years The MOD have closed or are in the process of closing several military establishments in the Edinburgh area but hang on to a presence in the castle – presumably so that they can argue for the continuation of giving 2 fingers to Scotland by flying their hateful colonialist rag.

    307. Petra says:

      It’s alright folks. Calm down. Don’t worry. Trump actually spoke out of turn yesterday, got it wrong, and for some reason Big T didn’t correct him at the podium either. Our NHS is safe after all. And the band played …..

      http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/trump-uk-visit-nhs-on-table-trade-deal-brexit-latest-a8944586.html

    308. Terry callachan says:

      In USA they fly the flags everywhere many people hang them at the front door of their house.

      In Israel they fly their flag everywhere too even on the roadside between towns especially on roads leading to Palestinian towns such as Ramallah you will see big Israeli flags on bamboo sticks every 50-100 metres along the road for miles

      Travelling around Scotland you see the union jack hanging from some but not many houses too mostly in the countryside from what I’ve seen

      I think it’s a form of intimidation in Israel and Scotland it’s like they are saying we are on your patch what are you gonna do about it

      Pathetic but nevertheless intimidating , more to some than others

      Personally I see it as weakness , they can’t win so they fly flags dress up in Union Jack suits criticise the things your country is good at

      We are too strong to lose

    309. Terry callachan says:

      In USA they fly the flags everywhere many people hang them at the front door of their house.

      In Israel they fly their flag everywhere too even on the roadside between towns especially on roads leading to Palestinian towns such as Ramallah you will see big Israeli flags on bamboo sticks every 50-100 metres along the road for miles

      Travelling around Scotland you see the union jack hanging from some but not many houses too mostly in the countryside from what I’ve seen

      I think it’s a form of intimidation in Israel and Scotland it’s like they are saying we are on your patch what are you gonna do about it

      Pathetic but nevertheless intimidating , more to some than others

      Personally I see it as weakness , they can’t win so they fly flags dress up in Union Jack suits criticise the things your country is good at

      They can’t erase our independent cause we are too strong to lose

    310. galamcennalath says:

      The politics of the right can be beguilingly simple. A few simple policies can catch the unsophisticated imagination. So England as opted for Brexit and Faragism.

      However, the true reality of far right ideology gets overlooked in this euphoria of ‘taking back control’. It won’t be folks on the streets getting their hands on the controls.

      And that brings us to the NHS, here and in England it’s dear to most people’s hearts, it’s valued, and it’s continuation is taken for granted. The NHS, however, stands for everything the right hate and they will want it destroyed.

      IMO ordinary Brexit supporters, those tempted by the dubious appeal of some right wing ideas, feel the same about their NHS and the rest of us do. It’s destruction is not what they had in mind. Consider, offering extra imaginary money for the NHS is Leave’s most infamous tactic. The Leave campaign knew the NHS is a winner. And we now have the situation where a hard Brexit looks likely to seriously damage the NHS.

      When it comes to the NHS there will be a backlash against the right.

      In chaotic England I’m not sure how that would play out

      In Scotland, a clear and present danger to NHSS could be the catalyst which takes Indy support to a new level.

    311. chicmac says:

      TJenny,

      Aye, also ‘Sweaty Betty’

    312. Jomry says:

      BBC Scotland “fake news” on GPS “overwhelmed” by workload. More incisive analytical work by John Robertson at https://thoughtcontrolscotland.com/2019/06/05/bbc-scotlands-fake-news-on-gps-overwhelmed-by-workloads/

    313. Joe says:

      @ Terry Callachan

      Ive got no idea about that either and I have wondered.

      Its probably why in the Scottish independence referendum too many Scots were wringing there hands and biting there nails whining ‘oooh…a dinnae ken if we kin afford it. Oor big Westminster pals keeps us solvent. Will we be better aff? A ken weve got aboot 60% of all Brent crude in our waters and muckle great renewable energy potentials but am jist no sure. Wha’s gonna pay ma hoosin benefit? ooooohhh…’

      Whereas the English with Brexit said ‘F**k it, lets do it’.

      That sums it up for me.

      Im Scottish, but I know which one I have more

    314. Joe says:

      … time for. 🙂

    315. Dan says:

      RE. US trade deals.
      Have a nosey at Atlantic Bridge to see how long this has been in the planning.
      I’m sure folk will recognise some of the names involved…

    316. Abulhaq says:

      QUÉBEC…a lesson and warning from history.
      It is worth researching the history of the independence movement in Québec. There are similarities, some disconcertingly close. Equivalents of project fear, currency issues, ‘anglo’ opposition to independence etc. Independence was lost in 1995 by less than 51k votes. Stats indicate the English speaking ‘no’ was largely responsible.
      The provincial government has considerably more powers than Scotland.
      The current generation of Québecois seems content, or just indifferent.
      Catalonia could be drifting in the same direction.
      There are significant historical differences between Scotland, Catalonia and Québec but in the end it comes down to politics, strategy, chance and the mood swings of global capitalism, social media memes and the hard/soft power of US hemispheric policy.

      Brutus:
      There is a tide in the affairs of men.
      Which, taken at the flood, leads on to fortune;
      Omitted, all the voyage of their life
      Is bound in shallows and in miseries.
      On such a full sea are we now afloat,
      And we must take the current when it serves,
      Or lose our ventures.

      Julius Caesar Act 4, scene 3, 218–224

    317. Robert Peffers says:

      @Robert J. Sutherland says: June, 2019 at 10:06 pm:

      ” … If we wait too long, Brexit will become normalised among them, and we’ll have missed the last bus out of town.”

      Well I suppose that is one theory but in my view the very fact that we are now dealing with the problem of BR UKExit is simple because in many unionists minds BR UKExit is well normalised in their minds long before they are born. It’s in their genes. However those not born with it as pre-birth normalised have it drummed into them at prep School, boarding school and then at Oxbridge.

      The feelings of privalidge becomes normalised as part of their psyche and Johnny Foreigner is top of the list of inferior beings, followed closely by the working classes, disabled people and the poor but most of all those scrounging, workshy, subsidy junkies over the border in their North British region of England.

      So we have to accept there will always be a certain number of Little Englanders/wannabe Little Englanders that even a stick of dynamite in each of their lugs is not going to eradicate their built-in feelings of exceptionalism.

    318. donnywho says:

      Tescos are Selling Scottish Strawberries again!

      They proudly show their place of origin by having a wee saltire on the top left.

      For the first time in a few years i am buying strawberries again.

      Wow by the way they are great had forgotten just how good they are!

      Are Scottish Strawberries the best… debate!

    319. Joe says:

      @ Abulhaq

      You mentioned Catalonia in your post and ive noticed its obviously a popular topic but I can say this from having been self employed there – the Spanish state is an absolute monster and a basket case with a very authoritarian and heavy handed take on law and order.

      The Catalans are doomed to be propping up the disgusting Spanish state for the foreseeable future. Spain would be writing their own death sentence to give it up Its honestly unlivable as a working person.

      Funny thing, i don’t see the super-democratic EU in it all. Maybe too busy interfering in Kosovo and championing there independence demands? Well, that’s until they join the EU of course…

    320. Ahundredthidiot says:

      OT

      regime propaganda wing in full ‘dont mention the Russians were our Allies’ mode.

    321. Dan says:

      @donnywho at 10.03am

      Prefer raspberries to strawberries myself, though as I type that I realise I’ve got a large strawberry patch and no rasps in my garden… so that’s more work to do in addressing that situation.

      Scotland has loads of high quality produce grown on and in our land, rivers, and seas.
      Some of the current farming methods used may be questionable in the long term, but hopefully improved practices will be implemented with science backed studies identifying better ways of doing things, and that may actually involve going back to older methods that are more sustainable.

      I don’t know if it’s the public demanding seasonal produce all year round, or whether they just buy “fresh” strawberries in Decemeber because the supermarkets have it in stock due to importing them.
      Strangely enough, you’ve got the chance to eat fresh Scottish strawberries now because they are coming into season. Enjoy that experience in the knowledge that there is a far reduced environmental impact compared to buying imported stuff from 1000s of miles away.
      Buy seasonal and buy local whenever possible.

      #KeepScotlandtheBrand

    322. Tatu3 says:

      The Danes love to fly their flag. The Norwegians love to fly their flag. The Swedish love to fly their flag. The Israelis love to fly their flag. The English love to fly their flag (and a lot see the UJ as the English flag). The Scots love to fly the Saltire.
      Maybe they are just proud of their country, just as you are proud of yours. YOU may not like their country, or their government, but they obviously do and are proud to be …. (insert nationality here).
      We can’t ALL be Scottish. Unfortunately.

    323. Robert J. Sutherland says:

      Joe @ 10:12,

      Oh, you are determined while you’re still here to roll out the full gamut of moth-eaten Leaver tropes.

      And today’s airing is “That busybody interfering EU should be =harrumpff= interfering far more in Spain”.

      =roll eyes=

      (You have conveniently forgotten one small pesky detail: the Catalans actually want independence within the EU.)

    324. Ahundredthidiot says:

      Holy F@#k! in light of Trumps demand for NATO partners to hit 2pc of gdp on defence spending (germany just under 1pc) Adam Boulton just said, ‘do we really want germany spending more money on its armed forces given what happened 75 years ago’

      Can these people be any more out of touch.

    325. Petra says:

      @ galamcennalath… “NHS.”

      It’s disgusting to think that people like Johnston and Farage used that “NHS bus” to influence many individuals to vote for Brexit, when they in fact are at the forefront of planning to totally privatise the NHS.

      ………………

      @ jomry at 9:46am …… “Professor John Robertson.”

      His site is absolutely invaluable for us, jomry, when it comes to monitoring BBC propaganda and yet I’ve never noticed him crowdfunding to keep it (him) going. I might be wrong here but as far as I know he’s no longer working / earning any money. Maybe we should be thinking of supporting him as its not just about keeping an eye on the BBC, his site seems to be the only one that’s actually highlighting the positives about Scotland too.

    326. @Abulhaq,

      jeezo,

      no the best example of someone seizing their chance,

      Brutus and his conspirators got annihilted,

      and brought Rome to dictatorship instead of democracy.

    327. Abulhaq says:

      @Tatu3
      Personally, flags and nat. anthems make me rather nauseous, both are militaristic totems in origin. Much prefer to see countries and peoples in terms of language and culture than kindergarten jingoism.
      The US appears to have a flag fetish, no need to copy them.

    328. Joe says:

      @ Robert J Sutherland

      You lost my interest in any conversation when you set about calling me a fascist and a racist.

      Honestly, i like debate and im up for debating against anyone, but you can really just f**k off. This is the last reply you will get from me you uninformed, twisted, disgusting, hysterical child. Abuse is where I draw the line. I hope that’s clear. Thanks

    329. Robert Peffers says:

      @Joe says: 4 June, 2019 at 10:33 pm

      ” … Hi Robert. Thanks for taking the time to answer my question, not with numbers I notice but its a start.”

      Sorry to have to keep contradicting your insistence upon numbers, Joe, but you are working on a false premise.

      The numbers do not illustrate the problems and they never have.

      All the numbers can illustrate are the results, or the effects, of the current system that generated them.

      It is rather like how unionist people claim an independent Scotland would be a basket case economy and quote GERS figures to prove their claims. In the first place every figure quoted in the GERS Reports are quite simply guesstimates – plucked out of the air estimates that are, furthermore, results of the Westminster Establishments system of overlordship.

      Not only are many of those guesstimates wildly inaccurate but result from Westminster policies that most certainly would not be followed by an independent Scottish Government and I could start quoting you many examples but doing so would be pointless as no independent Scottish Government’s main object would be to cheat Scotland.

      I will, though, quote you a couple of examples to illustrate the point. The oil & gas revenue is quoted as belonging to the United Kingdom by designating it as being from, “United Kingdom, Extra Regio Territory”, but the ONS’s own definition of the term, “Extra regio Territory”, has a specific meaning.

      “The term Extra-Regio is applied to economic activity that cannot be assigned to any specific region within a country.”

      So not only can oil & gas revenues be identified as being up to 98% from waters identified by the International Law of The Seas as under Scottish jurisdiction but they then claim that Scotland gets an 8.4% share of the revenue on a population basis.

      Trouble is that first of all the share is not a population figure but a geographic share and secondly the 8.4% does not come to Scotland but is a figure used by the ONS to derive other statistics, (which thus are obviously total bunkum).

      The GERS figures are really a confidence trick to rob Scotland and such figures are where the numbers you demand are derived from. There are other ways to look at GERS and other ONS numbers that you will never see quoted anywhere except by people who have studied the problem more closely and can see the obvious lies.

      Here’s a couple – Scotland is annually a net exporter, (mainly of food/drink, fuel and power). England, and indeed the UK as a whole, are net importers of all three and mainly from Scotland.

      Scotland thus does not have a deficit and England is running up a national debt at a quite alarming rate. Furthermore, and probably due to those export figures, Scotland’s Per Capita GDP is, in normal years, higher than that of both England and the UK as a whole. That means Scotland has no deficit but is being charged a percentage of the National debt interest repayments even if Scotland has no part of running it up.

      Now before you jump down my throat, I know these are not, “The Numbers”, you insist upon us quoting for you. I am just using them to illustrate that, “The Numbers”, are whatever Westminster says they are and, in any case, all numbers will be entirely due to the systems being applied by the UK and other governments in relation to the poorer countries that they not only made poor countries but will bomb the hell out of any that attempt to get out from under the richer countries that made them poor.

      It isn’t the numbers, Joe, it is the systems that need to change. If you doubt that read your own words – “ordinary people are turning to the right”. This is not because they think the right is better but because what they have now is so bad and the left is just the right in disguise. They are both, “The Westminster Establishment”, and except in Scotland, no other governments in the UK are other than “Westminster Establishment”, governments. There is only one place in the British Isles where the Westminster Establishment is not in charge – The Republic of Ireland, for Scotland is only just trying to escape Westminster.

      You want numbers, Joe? Look at those for the Republic of Ireland and think of the backing they are presently getting from the EU.

      You won’t change the numbers for the UK until you change the system within the UK.

    330. Ken500 says:

      Germany (Japan) was not allowed to re arm after the 11WW. They built up successful economies. Not spending so much on Defence.

      The US spends $611Billions on Defence. 1/3 of all world Defence spending. The most in the world pro rata.

      The Russians saved the West. 26Million Russians died.

    331. Ken500 says:

      The Catalonian did not vote for Independence. 1million people (EU citizens?) could not vote.

      Pop 7.5Million. 1 million children. Electorate 5.2Million. 2.2Million voted YES. 1 million+ voters excluded.

      All Spanish/Catalonian politicians are corrupt. They are held in contempt by the population.

    332. Cubby says:

      BDTT@11.19pm

      My health is fine thanks Brian. No need to concern yourself.

    333. Abulhaq says:

      @Scot Finlayson
      The key is;
      “And we must take the current when it serves,
      Or lose our ventures”.
      Judging the right moment.
      Plainly Brutus misjudged the ‘current’. In a 21st century busy with the noise of media distractions correctly judging the ‘current’ is even more necessary.
      It depends on how much you are prepared to ride the current, turbulence and all, and be confident in your navigation skills.

    334. Robert J. Sutherland says:

      Joe @ 11:05,

      Look back: I didn’t call you anything but a duck. But if you self-identify something specific in that, who am I to disagree…?

      It’s very easy to dodge a badly losing argument by resorting to false offence and unwarranted rudeness:

      you uninformed, twisted, disgusting, hysterical child. Abuse is where I draw the line.

      =cough= Oops – your hypocritical fake-polite mask slipped a tad there!

      You’ve been clocked. Find somewhere better to waste your time. We prefer debate based on facts, not make-believe diversions.

    335. Joe says:

      @ Robert Peffers

      Good answer again. Although I will say you preaching to the converted when it comes to Scotlands potential. Im very familiar with finance and markets and an independant Scotland could be an unbelievably wealthy nation. The GERS figures are propaganda.

      However: having just come from a part of Europe with very high unemployment, lowering living standards and a very large and continually increasing unskilled non-EU migrant population I can tell you that unless you can wave a magic wand and change the system fast, which I doubt, then those numbers are very relevant and are affecting real people.

      I use various types of economic data on a daily basis to accurately gauge and predict market cycles. Some data is complete crap (such as financial media) but other data correlates with market cycles at up to 85%

      The world is headed for a recession and the EU, with its insane monetary policy, is on course for a very hard hit. That means less jobs. More welfare and more debt.

      There has only been 2 countries to benefit from the Euro – Holland and Germany. Every other country has lost out by not being able to revalue there currency to suit there own needs and economic strength. The result is that Germany is the engine that’s keeping it going however this will not last and may end soon. And before anybody says it – yes, the UK is in poor state also.

      Here’s the thing – we have just come from the peak of the most recent economic cycle. The longest in history. These are the ‘good’ times.

      My point is – with this as a backdrop it would be nice to see politicians actually talking more hard numbers. But then they can be pinned down on policy, right? As you pointed out, numbers only come into play when its politically convenient.

      Id like to also say that many members of my family are from a very poor (5 dollars per day) country including non whites. Ive seen what poverty and hopelessness looks like. So what im saying is about possibility and not prejudice.

    336. galamcennalath says:

      Organisation for Economic Co-operation and Development figures, 2016. Healthcare spending, public and private per capital …

      UK $4192
      US $9892

      The UK has free healthcare for all.

      The US has millions of people with little access to healthcare.

      Would it not be more sensible for the NHS to take over healthcare provision in the US?

    337. geeo says:

      Joe@11.05pm says:

      “This is the last reply you will get from me you uninformed, twisted, disgusting, hysterical child”
      ………

      0.5 seconds later:

      …………

      “Abuse is where I draw the line. I hope that’s clear”. 
      ………….

      Comedy gold !

    338. Legerwood says:

      Looks like the Welsh Government are changing their position on the EU and becoming full on Remainers

      https://www.itv.com/news/wales/2019-06-04/welsh-government-will-now-campaign-to-remain-in-the-european-union/

    339. Dave McEwan Hill says:

      Some first class stuff in the National today. Kevin McKenna won’t be getting a knighthood anytime soon
      From the sharp pen of Tasmina “Wake up and smell the cordite” commenting on Trump’s visit and Alan Lawson in the letters suggests that if Boris Johnson becomes Prime Minister well be “All Under The One Bammer”

    340. Legerwood says:

      Dan @ 10.39am

      Thanks to changes in growing methods – polytunnels and raised growing platforms – as well as a good supply of workers from the EU the season for Scottish strawberries has been extended into September and, if conditions are right, sometimes into October.

      The acreage given over to growing strawberries in Scotland has also been increased. For growers though Brexit and its likely effect on the supply of workers is a concern. One of many no doubt associated with Brexit.

    341. Abulhaq says:

      D day landings commemorations….21st century…..anybody noticed?
      Uniforms, silly hats, flags, bands….nationalism of the very, very, very wrong sort.

    342. O.T. Could some one please tell me why when Mary Stewart went to France her name changed to Stuart. I know the French do not have w in their alphabet but that does not explain why when she returned to Scotland she did not return to her original spelling of her name and all her descendants retained the French version of the name is there some reason I do not know about ???

    343. Joe says:

      @ Geeo

      That includes you.

      I am not accepting hints of or outright claims from hysterical ideologues that im racist or a fascist of some kind because what I say may not be the normal left wing perspective.

      So again, zero tolerance for any abuse or slander from hysterical radicals. Thanks

    344. Frank Gillougley says:

      DMH 11.50

      After the truly chilling portent of yesterday, (as if some needed to see in order to believe) the following simple suggestion may be naive, but so what.

      Okay. At one level, the question remains – what will it take to get the required numbers of people to vote for Scotland being an independent nation in Europe?

      ‘If you do not think for yourself, then others will do your thinking for you.’
      This truth is a double-edged sword. Obviously, it cuts both ways.

      For me, one way to get former No voters to change their previous thinking, MUST include a concerted and focussed series of graphic billboards simply illustrating what was promised THEN and what the reality IS, and most importantly, what the alternative has TO BE.

      That’s a tall order I know, to get across a memorable graphic journey/narrative of where we have come from, to rise above the din of the Orwellian Babel, but there is a true wealth of graphic talent out there in the twitter/interwebsphere just waiting to be asked to put these simple truths together that will stick in the mind in a positive way.

    345. Dan says:

      Joe – “There has only been 2 countries to benefit from the Euro – Holland and Germany.”

      How many times. There is no such country as Holland!! (And that should be ‘have only’).

    346. Joe says:

      @ Dan

      Well maybe these people will keep your desire for perfect English happy?

      https://www.cep.eu/en/eu-topics/details/cep/20-years-of-the-euro-winners-and-losers.html

      You are right, its the Netherlands. Thanks

    347. schrodingers cat says:

      while french has the letter U but no letter W, “scots” (lallans, cant, doric etc) has both.

      the universal national spelling conventions in english were introduced by james 6th, via his bible (mary’s son) at a later date.

      this does not mean that each individual had their own spelling conventions, some did but in many texts from the 1500’s, we see the authors spelling the same word in many different ways, with in the same text.(this can make reading such texts difficult, reading them out loud helps decipher the phonetics and the meaning)

      individuals may have chosen to spell stuart with a U rather than a W as a political statement, eg they were supporters of Mary and the jacobian monarchy, or for religious reasons, eg they were protestant and wanted to distance themselves from a catholic Mary

      Mary was schooled in France and was perhaps only following french language conventions, and we shouldnt read anymore into this than that?

      what was fashionable at the time probably also influenced peoples preference. cf modern text language, eg, L8rz,

      the recipient of a letter may also have influenced how an author would have chosen to spell, eg, if the recipient had been schooled in the french system, the author could well have avoided using the letter W to aid comprehension.

      lastly, there is the possibility that the authors really just didnt care very much at all.
      (i very rarely punctuate or use capitals for exactly this reason)

      as with all such questions, the truth is that it is probably a mixture of all the above options.

    348. Dan says:

      @Legerwood at 11:59am

      Last year getting a good supply of workers from the EU was and presumably will continue to be a problem until Scotland resolves the numerous implications it has to try to mitigate because of the UKexit of EU.

      So much of this protracted turmoil Scots people and businesses are having to deal with is due to being stuck in an unequal Union with a 10 to 1 democratic deficit biased in favour of our southern neighbour.

      Top tip: We don’t actually need to be continually dragged in directions or involved in stuff we did not vote for by simply returning to our former pre-union status and having more power to influence our destiny!

      WAKEY WAKEY AND GET OFF YOUR KNEES SCOTLAND!

      What type and how much does one those projectors cost that Led BY Donkeys are using?

      Re. The other Dan posting at 12.14pm, do folks feel a gravatar image is enough to differentiate between posters using the same name?

    349. Dan says:

      Dan mk.I;

      a gravatar will surely suffice?

      Dan mk.II

    350. Liz g says:

      Dan @ 12.50
      Well… Not really,my screen is quite small and if I expand it to read I don’t see the picture only the name.
      But obviously it’s up to you 🙂

    351. Shrodingers cat thank you for taking the time to reply to my post

    352. Robert Peffers says:

      @Abulhaq says: 5 June, 2019 at 9:59 am:

      ” … QUÉBEC…a lesson and warning from history.
      It is worth researching the history of the independence movement in Québec. There are similarities, some disconcertingly close.”

      Claptrap! There are few, if any, similarities in the two political situations. For Starters those areas of French descent are not countries or kingdoms in their own right in Canada and there are not two equally sovereign kingdoms with a treaty of union that is not being respected.

      That is, in Canada, there is a movement for self determination by a recognisable group of people but there the similarities end.

      Why people attempt to compare such as Catalonian and Quebec independence to that of the Scottish independence situation is daft.

      Good grief the Quebec and Catalonian situations don’t even have anything in common with each other except they are both self determination issues never mind comparing them with the totally different Scottish independence situation.

      It certainly calls into question the ulterior motives of those who chose to do so.

      It certainly I

    353. Jack Murphy says:

      I’ve just seen this about Ruth Davidson MSP:

      ……..”DAVIDSONS SUPPORT FOR BORIS IS A GRAVE ERROR”………

      “Voters will punish the Scots Tory leader over her conciliatory stance towards a man she opposed”.

      Most of the article is behind The Times paywall:
      http://archive.is/XuIR5

    354. Robert Peffers says:

      @donnywho says: 5 June, 2019 at 10:03 am:

      … Are Scottish Strawberries the best… debate!”

      Mibbies yes! Mibbies naw! But I’ll go for naw, and I’ll tell you why. I remember when Scotland had vast areas of greenhouses in the Clyde Valley but also throughout Scotland were hundreds of Small Holdings due to a first World War scheme that provided government grants to demobbed servicemen. Just about every area had it’s Tomato growing Small holdings.

      Now I remember my old grandfather would pull the wee stem off any tomato on his plate, smell it and say, “Aye! Scotch. Now the reason was that these wee remnant stems smelled kind of minty and if they didn’t Grandad would declare that they were inferior non-Scottish tomatoes.

      Later in life, when the tomato growing business in Scotland was almost wiped out by the importing of tomatoes and the Scottish trade suffering heating costs for greenhouses, I learned Grandad’s methods of detection were rubbish.

      The real reason that the wee stalks did not smell minty was because of the time involved and if you left a Scottish tomato for as long as the time of picking of imported tomatoes to them getting to the table then the Scotch tomatoes had also lost that minty smell.

      So I’d guess that Scottish Strabs taste better because from the instant a fruit is picked it starts to deteriorate and the Scots fruit gets to the consumer quicker than the imported ones.

      Talking about imported tomatoes – have you noticed they have much tougher skins? I believe this is due to them being grown outside and not being watered so frequently as in greenhouse culture and also taking longer to grow.

      Well that’s my theory anyway! Take it or leave it.

    355. Breeks says:

      I read Craig Murray a bit earlier, and followed up a bit of a paper chase through Twitter… The UK and Tory MP’s in particular are developing quite a chequered dossier when it comes to its dealings with the UN. It surely cannot end well.

      I just wish from the soles of my boots up, that we could find a faster way to short circuit this mess, and distance ourselves from this rogue UK “Government” and see Scotland standing on its own two feet, commended for its integrity and rejection of unscrupulous and frequently murderous UK greed, exceptionalism, and craven hypocrisy.

      It worries me too that the Establishment media still have “Access All Area” Press passes, and it would seem, licence to tell lies and distort reality with absolute impunity. All that “evidence” being compiled by Prof Roberson… there needs to be a strategy and end game to make it all count. There’s a point when the number of visitors to a blog just isn’t enough. There has to be change or all the effort and sacrifice will be futile.

    356. `Charge of the Light Brigade` on the goggle box,

      little englanders happily heading/charging down a path to their own destruction,

      led to that destruction by the Eton elite,

      “go again sir” says the devoted little englander.

      Little englanders would,without question, happily head for destruction if asked by their `betters`,

      this is why any reasoned argument against Brexit is wasted,if the Eton elite want Brexit the little englander will follow unquestioningly.

    357. schrodingers cat says:

      see the bbc docu, the history of agriculture uk,

      tomato farmer in jersey,

      1950, 38 acres, 1 acre glass house. produce 1lbs of tomatos per plant

      2010 38 acres of glass houses, artificial lighting, hydroponic, co2 pumped in, crops all year round, nature is removed from farmers equation. result

      40lbs of tomatos per plant, 70 million tomatoes per year.

      agriculture has moved on, for very little sg money investment, 10 such farms could produce enough vegtables to feed all of scotland. for free

    358. Fireproofjim says:

      There are those in this thread who apply cynical hind-sight in criticising the commemoration of
      D-Day.
      For all the things which were done wrong during the war and in its aftermath, it is undoubtedly true that on the 6th of June 1945 many thousands of young men risked their lives in order to fight the foulest regime which has ever blighted this planet, and those men who still survive, now all in their nineties, deserve our thanks.
      Surely “it was not for glory or honour that they fought but for freedom itself, and for that alone, which no honest man give up but with life itself.”
      I rest my case.

    359. Clootie says:

      From the back of the car – “are we Independent yet?”

      https://www.un.org/en/decolonization/declaration.shtml

    360. Welsh Sion says:

      Legerwood says:
      5 June, 2019 at 11:47 am

      Looks like the Welsh Government are changing their position on the EU and becoming full on Remainers

      https://www.itv.com/news/wales/2019-06-04/welsh-government-will-now-campaign-to-remain-in-the-european-union/

      _______

      Now why can’t I find that story on BBC Wales or BBC Cymru? 😉

    361. ronnie anderson says:

      Scottish affairs committee 2.15pm .

      parliamentlive.tv/Event/Index/aa7dd329-ca0f-434b-8fa6-ff66e3d429d2

    362. @schrodingers cat,

      aye but they taste of nothing,

      they pump `tomato` scent into the container to fool us into thinking it is in anyway a `natural` growing process,

      cannae mind the last time i bought a tasty tomato,

      quantity doesnae mean quality.

    363. call me dave says:

      @Fireproofjim

      Aye! I’ll second that.

    364. galamcennalath says:

      Robert Peffers says:

      Scotland had vast areas of greenhouses in the Clyde Valley

      Orchards too. Plums, damsons, greengages. My mother made jam and every year we would go to favourite nurseries and buy boxes of fruit. All gone. No more.

      Good strawberries? We had some nice Angus ones the other day. While no expert, my one piece of advice on strawberries is avoid the variety Elsanta. Big red, uniform, good cropper, good shelf life and to my palate totally devoid of taste!

      I hope iScotland expands and develops our horticulture. Like everything else it is almost certainly stifled by being part of the UK. Policies designed for Scotland, more often that not, are bound to be improvements.

    365. Golfnut says:

      Can’t remember the last time I had a decent tomato. I only ever cook them now, they are still tasty when cooked in the oven.

    366. Robert Peffers says:

      @Joe says:5 June, 2019 at 10:12 am:

      … Funny thing, i don’t see the super-democratic EU in it all.”

      Then you just haven’t been paying much attention then, have you?

      Firstly the EU just doesn’t work the way you imagine it does and secondly the EU will resist any obvious interference in any EU member states business. That, though, does not mean they do not interfere – they just do so quietly, behind the scenes and in a diplomatic manner.

      Unlike the Westminster Establishment the EU has no way to force member states to comply with EU, “Directives”. Which is why, for example, Sweden still has not adopted the Euro in spite of Sweden having been a founder member of the EU. In fact a third of EU member states do not use the Euro.

      Yet Westminster tells Scots that not only will they have to join a queue to join the EU but will be forced to adopt the Euro. Both these claims are utter balderdash. The EU works not only democratically but by consensus. No state gets forced to obey EU directives but they mostly do and the EU rubs along just fine.

      So let me point out a few not too well publicised in the UK facts about Spain & Catalonia. Several EU states accepted a Catalonian politician that Spain was demanding should be extradited to Spain to be tried and found guilty. Yet Germany tried a Catalan, “criminal politician”, under German law and found them not guilty and refused to extradite them – as did Scotland under Scots Law and refused Spain’s demans for extradition.

      Not only that but note that the Spanish Government recently cleared the Catalonian politicians they had previously accusing of being ("Tractor" - Ed)s of Spain to stand in Catalonian elections.

      That, I think, was the EU working exactly how the EU works and I believe, and I keep an eye events in the EU debating chamber, that the EU is very friendly to the Scottish Government but will not/cannot interfere openly in a member states domestic business.

      I expect that on Brexit day when, England gets its way and leaves, there will be an instant difference in the EU’s attitude to the United Kingdom issue. Perhaps the EU will then make clear what it has always known. The United Kingdom is exactly what it describes itself as – a two partner union of kingdoms and one of those kingdoms voted to stay while the other voted to leave.

      The EU would be well within its rights to declare that the Scottish Kingdom was the legacy member state, and with renegotiated terms, remain in the EU while the other partner in the EU, The three country Kingdom of England gets Well Wishes and waved goodbye to.

      As I said the EU will not interfere in a member states domestic affairs but on Brexit Westminster is no longer a member state.

    367. galamcennalath says:

      Scot Finlayson says:

      cannae mind the last time i bought a tasty tomato

      Wae ma’ lunch 🙂

      Brysons Tomatoes, Newmilns. Picked yesterday morning, eaten today.

    368. schrodingers cat says:

      Scot Finlayson says:
      5 June, 2019 at 2:09 pm
      @schrodingers cat,

      aye but they taste of nothing,

      they pump `tomato` scent into the container to fool us into thinking it is in anyway a `natural` growing process,

      cannae mind the last time i bought a tasty tomato,

      quantity doesnae mean quality.

      ——————

      personal experience based on nostalgic memories that never existed.

      during the interview, the farmer was asked about quality, he reached over and plucked a rack of perfectly ripe, red and juicy vine tomatoes from a bench and laid them in front of the interviewer and said “show me a farmer or gardener who would be proud of such tommatoes”

      to which the interviewer replied, “but, but, what about the taste”?

      the farmer replied, “we no not only the molecular make up of these tomatoes, we also know its genetic make up, Taste? I can make these tomatoes taste like fukcin bananas if you want”!

      what you dislike about the “taste” of such tomatoes, is the thought of how they are grown, not their taste

    369. Doug says:

      Are there any war movies on Britnat tv this week?

    370. Dr Jim says:

      Apparently if Boris Johnson was taller and a bit slimmer he’d be even more popular in England and without question the immediate first choice to be PM

      That tells you a great deal about the Unionist mentality and evolution of the mindset that they believe they need someone to *look up to*

      So a big factor in the reasoning of the Unionist mind is that Scotland can’t be Independent because Nicola Sturgeon’s no tall enough

      Angela Merkel’s Germany have been doing it all wrong for years then, I won’t list all the other world leaders I’d run out of Internet

    371. Jockanese Wind Talker says:

      Japan were one of the Allied Powers (on the UKs side) during the First World War and therefore on the winning side@Ken500 says at 11:13 am

      They deployed naval assets to the Mediterranean believe it or not as well as playing an important role in securing the sea lanes in the West Pacific and Indian Oceans.

      Allied Powers were made up of France, the United Kingdom and Empire Forces, Russia, Japan, Italy, Serbia, Belgium, Greece, Montenegro, Romania and The United States of America.

    372. schrodingers cat says:

      galamcennalath says:

      Scotland had vast areas of greenhouses in the Clyde Valley

      Orchards too
      ———-

      pretty much all crops are grown under plastic today, even some tatties.

      the last remaining real outside crop is indeed orchards, which is why they are no longer finacially viable in scotland, cheap oz, us and nz apples made sure of that. this has been the case since the late 1800’s

      this is a political decision, all farmers in europe are subsidised otherwise all would go bust under the pressure of cheaper foreign imports.

      the solution. follow norways example. they subsidise their agriculture but only to the point of norweigien consumption.

      they would not subsidise the earl of atholl, the largest sheep farmer in europe to supply lamb to the whole of the eu, turning scotland into a mono culture, bio diversless sheep farm.

      ask anyone who lived through ww2 if they thought it is a good idea to shelve farming in britain and buy all our foodstuffs from holland and china cos it is cheaper?

      they would think you were nuts

    373. Bobp says:

      Just back in lloret, been up to malgrat for the day, in blanes i helped a muslim woman lift her pushchair off the train. Despite the fact english holidaymakers stood around her watching her struggle. Mind you i think the fact i was wearing my Scotland top sent a subliminal message. Despite some idiots, we are not racist in Scotland.

    374. Bobp says:

      Should have added sectarian maybe.

    375. Clootie says:

      Vegetables and fruit that still tastes great. I’m afraid you will need to move to Italy. Food is on a different level. Perhaps being natural and being all shapes and sizes is a clue.
      Supermarkets there buy from the local area. Given the amount of markets few people would buy it in a supermarket anyway.
      It’s allotment quality standard in taste.

    376. schrodingers cat says:

      Clootie says:
      It’s allotment quality standard in taste.
      ————–
      growing tomatoes in my greenhouse often fails

      potatoes in scotland do very well (colder climate, less desease) which is why we export so many seed potatoes

    377. Bobp says:

      Robert peffers 2.18.pm. good post mr peffers.

    378. schrodingers cat says:

      being in the CAP means a scottish, german and french bree can be sold in all 3 countries but the scottish, german and french governments cannot subsidise (officially) this product in any country, including their own.

      norway, not being in the CAP can subsidise its own produce for sale in norway. ergo, you can buy a french bree in norway, but a twice the price of a norwegian bree.

      result. norway is almost self sufficient in food stuffs and it only subsidises its own producers to produce enough for norways own population. it doesnt subsidise farmers to produce things for export. why should they? why should we subsidise the earl of atholl? what do we get out of it? nothing.

      it increases biodiversity and reduces our reliance on imports

    379. Jockanese Wind Talker says:

      Agree with you though @Ken500 at 11:13 am that the Nazis military in Europe were broken by the Soviets but don’t forget The Indian forces were the strength in numbers that broke the Japanese advance in the Far East.

      Yet the BritNats would have you believe that “England stood alone!”.

    380. schrodingers cat says:

      Clootie says:
      5 June, 2019 at 2:36 pm
      Vegetables and fruit that still tastes great. I’m afraid you will need to move to Italy. Food is on a different level. Perhaps being natural and being all shapes and sizes is a clue.
      ———-

      40% of all seed potatoes planted in italy come from scotland.
      that different crops do better in nature in some countries and not others isnt a surprise.

      point im making is modern agriculture enables us to produce things in scotland that wouldnt grow in nature.

      im not suggesting we ban italian tomatoes or french bree in scotland, i am saying we should subsidise our own produce. If italian tomatoes are sso important to you, feel free to buy them, just dont be surprised when you find out they are twice the price

    381. galamcennalath says:

      schrodingers cat says:

      CAP …. subsidise

      CAP payments are themselves a subsidy of sorts. Not supposed to be at a national level, more on a needs basis. Scottish hill farms and crofts don’t get as much as they should. The money is allocated at EU level, but diverted at Defra level in London.

      I remember reading somewhere that the CAP payments to a Donegal crofter are twice those payed to a Skye crofter because London has nobbled the money.

      An iScotland in the EU would get more out of the CAP than it currently does. We are already a massive exporter. I sure there’s lots of potential to expand.

      The ‘issue’ of large scale landowners is something we need to sort out in iScotland.

      https://www.thescottishfarmer.co.uk/news/16325444.michael-gove-admits-scottish-farmers-will-not-receive-160-million-lost-convergence-funding/

    382. galamcennalath says:

      I see Rory the Tory (Stewart) has nailed his colours to May’s deal.

      All hopefuls have four choices at the end of the day … crash out, somehow get May’s deal through WM, or cancel. Then there is a fourth choice whereby they could simply commit political suicide and call a GE.

      Most of candidates would refute this and say they can have a ‘managed no deal’ or negotiate a new deal. Logically, there have been so many lies told, why should they stop now!

      Rory, on the other hand, is being honest in opting for one of the real world options. Nay chance, of course.

    383. Dan says:

      Typing from a room full of tomato reek as the window sill is full of tom plants.
      The fruit and veg I’ve grown with heehaw knowledge knocks spots off bought stuff in flavour.

      Lesley Riddoch’s Nation film on Iceland had a brief part showing how they grow tomatoes in a practice facilitated by their natural resources, namely geothermal.

      Quick search and here’s a 2 min vid with brief explanation. Interesting part for me is at the end where she states that by growing their own it reduces their reliance on importing food from abroad.

      http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oiRJnGUJvm8

      With Scotland having an abundance of renewable energy we could do something similar. Oh, that’s right we can’t because we’re still in a union which puts the kibosh on that.

      Do people think shipping tonnes of plastic packed and refrigerated food around the planet using planes, ships and lorries is really sensible when with some thought it can be grown locally?
      New Zealand lamb in Scotland…are you fookin serious, how on earth the economics of it being viable are one thing but ignoring the environmental aspects are ridiculous.

    384. CameronB Brodie says:

      re. Adam Boulton. The man is living proof that the Anglo-American New Right are a bunch arrogant, racist, dick-heads (see BoJo for example). For constantly updated evidence supporting this hypothesis, see Joe’s comments.

    385. Liz g says:

      Fireproof @ 2.01
      Absolutely,100%
      What they did should never be forgotten.
      I for one make sure my kid’s know the difference between, as you said, what those men were fighting for, the women who supported them,and politics that took them there.

      I have no doubt that those men and women stepped up for everyone of us and deserve our never ending thanks..

      I look forward to the day we can honour them in our own way and not this dum media shit show still steeped in militarism.
      I don’t think they ( politicians ) have learned a thing!

    386. Chick McGregor says:

      On the subject of poly tunnel effect on food production it is truly phenomenal.

      We have some in Angus and of course a lot in the Netherlands but for those who may not be aware of it, the Mar de Plastico (Sea of Plastic) in the Almeria region of Spain produces over half the fruit and veg used in Europe.

      Although it can be easily seen from the space station it is still a relatively small area of Spain.

      The main issue is getting enough water down there to feed the production.

      https://www.google.co.uk/maps/place/Almería,+Spain/@36.8117542,-2.6158941,83690m/data=!3m1!1e3!4m5!3m4!1s0xd7a9e00ecccf2c1:0x8d9da01f8ebc485e!8m2!3d36.834047!4d-2.4637136

    387. Robert Peffers says:

      @Patrick Roden says: 4 June, 2019 at 10:54 am:

      ” … Let’s not kid ourselves any longer, these scandals happen as much under Labour as they do under the Tories.
      The fact that successive Westminster governments treat the UK voters with such complete contempt, yet people keep voting for them..
      Why?”

      Well, Patrick, there is an explanation and I posted about it when I first began commenting on Wings. However, I didn’t get much reaction from Wingers back then as most couldn’t accept what I’d realised long, long ago. Perhaps the idea may be more acceptable to Wingers now that a lot more water has flowed under the United Kingdom bridge since then.

      The Westminster Establishment has changed through the years buT strangely it really hasn’t changed a bit. What I mean by that is the change the Westminster part names and they seem to change the party positioning on the political spectrum but in reality the just go on the same as they ever did.

      Way back there was the Whigs:-

      “The Whig Party was originally founded in 1678, at the start of Britain’s modern political history. The key principles of the Whigs were to defend the people against tyranny and to advance human progress. After securing the ‘Glorious Revolution’ in 1688, which established the primacy of Parliament over the Crown, the Whigs founded the Bank of England in 1694, and then crafted the Act of Union between England and Scotland in 1707. For the next 150 years, the Whigs laid the foundations for a decent and democratic modern Britain. During this period, there were just two political parties in Britain; the Whigs, who pressed forward, and the Tories, who tried to hold things back”

      So the other party was the, “Tory”, party, as the cut & paste explains. However, the names changed a bit through time and the Whigs became the Liberals and the Tories the Conservatives. Basically, in England, the Liberals were the rebels who eventually deposed the King of England, James I, (note he was also James VI of Scotland but the Scots did not depose their king). So the Whigs were supposedly for the people against the monarchy and the Tories for the Crown and more or less against the people. This became the Westmiunster Establishment and it included, in the HOL the English Archbishops.

      Then ialong came the Labour Party and upset the apple cart for a while and the Liberals went through a lot of name changes as they began to fizzle out. So Labour began brightly enough and did some really good stuff after WWII including the NHS services and lots of house building. However Labour soon settled down and became part of the Establishment. In short those in the Estalishment really didn’t care too much if they were in or out of power for the main body of thir MPs get exactly the same money as the main body of MPs inpower.

      The Establishment is supposed to be a two party system but has morhped into just being one actual party but kidding on they were two parties to fool the voters. The Liberals went through several stages and became the LibDems. So really, these days, it is the Government, (the Establishment), against the people and as far as policies go, you couldn’t shove a fag paper between any two of them.

      They get richer while the people get poorer and The Establishment always wins.

    388. CameronB Brodie says:

      Ever wondered what happens if you add some decolonisation psychology to the practice of community psychology? This is the sort of stuff you need to use if you want to combat the detrimental social effects of the BBC in Scotland, for example.

      Special Issue:Teaching Toward Decoloniality in Community Psychology and Allied Disciplines
      https://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/toc/15732770/2018/62/3-4

    389. schrodingers cat says:

      galamcennalath says:
      5 June, 2019 at 3:02 pm
      schrodingers cat says:

      CAP …. subsidise

      CAP payments are themselves a subsidy of sorts.
      ————-

      I know, im not against subsidies, the opposite in fact. i against the idea of an eu cap. why? because the eu sees the issue on an eu wide basis, eg the spanish example above. the eu would turn the whole of scotland into a sheep far to produce top quality scotch lamb for the EU if it was deemed good for the eu. even if it was bad for scotland. they can do this because they control the subsidies!

      scotland, the low and the highlands are 2 completely different environments. why would we have an independent scottish COMMON agricultural policy for 2 such different environments?

      presently, local farmers are flooding fields to plant reeds and rushes to be turned into eco friendly firelighters. why? cos they presently command a much larger eu subsidy than other crops.

      makes sense if you’re a eu civil servant setting the tarif.

      makes economic sense if you are a struggling farmer.

      but it makes no environmental sense here in scotland.

    390. Petra says:

      @ galamcennalath…….. “Rory the Tory.”

      Rory the roaster has said that Remain and No Deal are out for him. He plans to hand the deal decision making over to a Citizens Assembly (lacking knowledge. biased etc?), but couldn’t answer Jon Snow when asked what he’d do if they came back and said they’d opted for Remain or No Deal. Then of course if they did manage to come up with some sort of a deal would it be akin to Big T’s or if not acceptable to the Commons and the EU? As far as I can make out it’ll be a time wasting exercise and we’ll be back to square one.

      http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/conservative-leader-rory-stewart-brexit-citizens-assembly-archbishop-canterbury-a8933741.html

    391. Joe says:

      @ Robert Peffers

      Yep. Good point regarding Catalonia etc. I am reminded of migrant quotas when it comes to the EU pressuring member states though?

      You never said this, but I hear this a lot ‘Independent in Europe’. A country in the Eurozone:

      A: has no direct control over trade deals
      B: has much of its immigration laws superseded by another state (Surinder Singh ruling for example)
      C: no control whatsoever over monetary policy.

      If you hide the names and you ask anybody knowledgeable in the subject of politics if a country in that situation is ‘independent’ im pretty sure you would get a chuckle. The country in question has no sovereign status in real terms.

    392. schrodingers cat says:

      @Chick McGregor

      there is also an environmental impact, a carbon footprint associated with transporting such foodstuffs from spain to scotland.

      also, what if these spanish poly tunnels burnt down? what then for an indy scotland reliant on such food?

      food security is an even more basic necessity than fuel security.

      also, it wouldnt cost us a penny. why? cos we already pay eu taxes to subsidise these spanish poly tunnels. why not scottish ones?

    393. CameronB Brodie says:

      Once you’ve got your head around all that lot, you can then attempt this, which will be a much needed skill in Brexitania, IMHO. ;(

      Linking Multicultural Counseling and Social Justice Through Advocacy

      Abstract:

      The concepts of multicultural counseling, social justice, and advocacy may be utilized without a clear sense of how best to operationalize them in counselor training. In this article, the authors offer a perspective on how advocacy and social justice interrelate and share strategies for infusing advocacy into counselor training to achieve social justice goals. The authors provide six experiential activities counselor educators may use to provide counselors-in-training experience in a range of advocacy skills.

      Keywords: Advocacy | counselor training | multicultural counseling | social justice

      https://libres.uncg.edu/ir/uncg/f/L_Gonzalez_Linking_2016.pdf

    394. Breeks says:


      Liz g says:
      5 June, 2019 at 3:21 pm
      Fireproof @ 2.01
      Absolutely,100%
      What they did should never be forgotten.
      I for one make sure my kid’s know the difference between, as you said, what those men were fighting for, the women who supported them,and politics that took them there…

      I agree with that sentiment 100%, but with two important caveats.

      First, hypothetically, had Scotland been an Independent Country in 1939, it would have faced the same threat of Nazi occupation, and Scotland’s place on the “Allied” team would have been a racing certainty.

      Second, the troops and service personnel of WW2 largely respected Scotland, albeit through dated stereotypes and blinkered vision, there was still respect and humility in sacrifice. Where is the respect in deliberately orchestrating for the UK Armed Forces Day to clash with Scotland’s 700th Anniversary of Bannockburn in 2014? Suddenly we’re back in the day when the British Army is a tool of Empire, arrogantly asserting itself by cocking it’s leg on Scotland’s modest attempt to celebrate it’s own identity. There’s your real modern day “Britishness” right there. It’s petty, it’s crude, it’s thrives upon its own unpleasantness, … and frankly you can shove it.

      I reckon any Scottish soldier who gave his life for his country would understand that just fine.

    395. Les Wilson says:

      Interesting exchange re veg, with brexit on the horizon, fortunately having a reasonable size garden I installed a 15ft x 14ft polytunnel in an attempt to grow my own veg. Not being a natural gardener I have learned quite a bit and still make mistakes.

      But I do prefer organic food so I strive to do what I think will be right. Being my first season I do not expect too much, but hope my efforts will be rewarded next year when I am more clued up.

      Currently I am growing 3 different tomatoes, sweetcorn, strawberries, goji berries, rasberries, blackberries,blue berries.
      Leaks,beetroot, onions, carrots,lettuce,cabbage, and califlower.
      None in big quantities at one time as I am trying hard to get it all right.But should supply usable veg.Some neighbours will benefit too.

      Next year I will add more variety. It is a challenge so I congratulate those who excell at it.
      Hopefully it will all be fruitful (no pun intended)as time goes by and my learning increases.

    396. gus1940 says:

      While acknowledging the contribution made by those who took part in D Day in particular those who lost their lives is it not the case that this whole Bread and Circuses business is a political operation attempting to unite the country (UK) and divert attention from the Brexit Shambles with endless documentaries, outside broadcasts and re-running of all the How We Won The War Stiff Upper English Lip Movies.

      However, all is not lost as next year we will have a bumper crop of WW2 Bread and Circuses with the following:-

      80th anniversary of the Battle Of Britain.
      75th anniversaries of both VE Day and VJ Day.

    397. schrodingers cat says:

      Les Wilson

      try wasabi, there is a shortage in scotland and costs a fortune.
      2 year growth cycle

    398. schrodingers cat says:

      Breeks
      I reckon any Scottish soldier who gave his life for his country would understand that just fine.
      ———————–

      lggibbon

      FOR I WILL GIVE YOU THE MORNING STAR

      In the sunset of an age and an epoch we may write that for epitaph of the men who were of it. They went quiet and brave from the lands they loved, though seldom of that love might they speak, it was not in them to tell in words of the earth that moved and lived and abided, their life and enduring love. And who knows at the last what memories of it were with them, the springs and the winters of this land and all the sounds and scents of it that had once been theirs, deep, and a passion of their blood and spirit, those four who died in France? With them we may say there died a thing older than themselves, these were the Last of the Peasants, the last of the Old Scots folk. A new generation comes up that will know them not, except as a memory in a song, they passed with the things that seemed good to them with loves and desires that grow dim and alien in the days to be. It was the old Scotland that perished then, and we may believe that never again will the old speech and the old songs, the old curses and the old benedictions, rise but with alien effort to our lips.

      So, lest we shame them, let us believe that the new oppressions and foolish greeds are no more than mists that pass. They died for a world that is past, these men, but they did not die for this that we seem to inherit. Beyond it and us there shines a greater hope and a newer world, undreamt when these four died. But need we doubt which side the battle they would range themselves did they live to-day, need we doubt the answer they cry to us even now, the four of them, from the places of the sunset?

    399. geeo says:

      Joe@12.07pm says:

      “So again, zero tolerance for any abuse or slander from hysterical radicals”.
      …………

      That is quite the response to someone pointing out your blatant hypocracy !!

      Again, comedy gold.

      Your utterly ridiculous right wing fascist zoomery has been busted time after time, especially by Robert Peffers earlier.

      You want to talk numbers in relation to right wing ideology ?

      Tens of millions dead/maimed/damaged in WW2

      6 million murdered Jews .

      Many more million displaced Jews all over Europe.

      Persecution of millions of Black people by Nazi policies.

      Ditto Catholics.

      And so on.

      All that started with the smallest number holding that view, ONE.

      One man with a right wing, ideological view, spreads into a human catastrophe.

      Right wing views never end well.

      Here in the uk, that ideology has lead to tens of thousands of deaths of sick and vulnerable people and an attack on public services which of course, mostly negatively affects the working classes.

      You are in the wrong place to promote your right wing views, Joe.

      Nobody here is buying it.

    400. ben madigan says:

      here’s part 1 of an easy self-help guide in coping with propaganda, false news and so on –

      I hope you all find it useful, especially when talking to “don’t knows” etc as you try and help them to shift their perspectives

      https://eurofree3.wordpress.com/2019/06/05/stop-propaganda-from-taking-over-your-own-mind/

    401. Liz g says:

      ben madigan @ 4.52
      Thank you for that link…
      I was trying to explain to a young voter this very. morning that he needs to learn how to read the news!
      He is Yes in a family of NO and all his questions are based on MSM reporting.
      I’ll send it on….. 🙂

    402. Fireproofjim says:

      Schrödinger’s cat 4.14
      Thanks for the Sunset Song extract.
      I’d forgotten how good that book was. Must read again.

    403. @schrodingers cat,

      `what you dislike about the “taste” of such tomatoes, is the thought of how they are grown, not their taste`

      no,

      what i dislike about the taste is there is no taste, couldn`t give a flying f@ck how they are grown,

      Scotland produces some of the best soft fruits in the world because of the slow growth,lots of natural water and not to sunny so the growth is slower,

      seasonal slow growth is best for a ripe tasty fruit/tomato,

      you cannot hurry it,

      you might get colour,shape and size by genetics and forcing but you do not get taste and texture.

    404. Robert J. Sutherland says:

      I see that although Trump has since rowed back on his “everything is on the table” for post-Brexit trade talks, the real aim of the Americans is apparently to neutralise the ability of the NHS to use its monopoly position to keep the price of medicines low. They want a “free market” in which they can hike their prices to US levels and rake in the profits from others’ misfortune.

      They don’t need to take it over, they can just run it into the ground while the UKGov “whistles Dixie”.

      Maybe what we need come IR2 is a phone bank to call up older folk to tell them their medicines are going to cost a mint if they stick to UKOK. And this time, from our side, it won’t be a lie like the pensions.

    405. CameronB Brodie says:

      OK, here’s one to counter the welfare chauvinism bollocks touted by right-wingers like Farage and Joe. This is just a sneaky manner of racist public discourse, and points to a lack of political honesty. Tories like Farage and Joe talk a populist game but they seek to defend inherited privilege and are no friends of the general public (see the full-English Brexit).

      The Fiscal Effects of Immigration to the UK

      The impact immigration has on the tax and welfare system is perhaps the single most important economic issue of concern in the public debate when assessing the pro’s and con’s of immigration in the UK. There are claims that immigrants from Europe free-ride on the benefit- and health system, resulting in demands that not only should their access to benefits and public services be restricted, but that immigration from the European Economic Area (EEA) countries should be restricted as well.

      Following this debate, it is surprising how little well researched evidence exists on how much immigrants take out of, and contribute to, the public purse. We fill this void in a study published by the Royal Economic Society today in the Economic Journal. Based on the UK Labour Force Survey and a multitude of government sources, we compute the fiscal net contribution of natives and immigrants by assigning individuals their share of cost for each item of government expenditure and identifying their contribution to each source of government revenue. We distinguish between immigrants from the European Economic Area (EEA), and immigrants from outside Europe. The former group, we break down into immigrants from the Eastern and Central European countries that joined the EU since 2004 (A10), and immigrants from the rest of EEA.

      Our findings show that immigrants to the UK who arrived since 2000, and for whom we observe their entire migration history, have made consistently positive fiscal contributions regardless of their area of origin. Between 2001 and 2011 recent immigrants from the A10 countries contributed to the fiscal system about 12% more than they took out, with a net fiscal contribution of about £5 billion. At the same time the net fiscal contributions of recent European immigrants from the rest of the EU totalled £15bn, with fiscal payments about 64% higher than transfers received.

      Immigrants from outside the EU countries made a net fiscal contribution of about £5.2 billion, thus paying into the system about 3% more than they took out. In contrast, over the same period, natives made an overall negative fiscal contribution of £616.5 billion. The net fiscal balance of overall immigration to the UK between 2001 and 2011 amounts therefore to a positive net contribution of about £25 billion, over a period over which the UK has run an overall budget deficit.

      Our analysis thus suggests that – rather than being a drain on the UK’s fiscal system – immigrants arriving since the early 2000s have made a net contributions to its public finances, a reality that contrasts starkly with the view often maintained in public debate….

      https://www.ucl.ac.uk/economics/about-department/fiscal-effects-immigration-uk

    406. defo says:

      wtf?

    407. ben madigan says:

      @ Liz g who said:
      “Thank you for that link”!
      Glad you found it useful Liz.
      Hope others do too
      All the best
      Ben

    408. Abulhaq says:

      @Robert Peffers
      As usual Mr Peffers you go off on your familiar rant, totally missing the point. I was not implying historic or constitutional similarities just political ones.
      If Scotland ends up in a political situation similar to that of Québec, two failed referendums, then don’t say you haven’t been warned.
      Your historic, treaties of Union based argument is a reasonable one but one long abandoned by the SNP as of little effectiveness given the nature of the aggressive, anglocentricity of the modern Union.

    409. CameronB Brodie says:

      It is not woke to call-out racism, it is ethical and it is rational, unlike the full-English Brexit. Just how badly will Scotland allow its political economy to be damaged by our democratic deficit and England’s colonial imagination? Scotland’s economy needs immigration in order to continue functioning effectively. Stop immigration and Scotland will suffer.

      THE FISCAL IMPACT OF IMMIGRATION ON THE UK
      A REPORT FOR THE MIGRATION ADVISORY COMMITTEE
      6. CONCLUSION

      Immigration is a central theme in the post-Brexit policy debate. In that context, it is important to understand the fiscal implications of migration––so in this study, we have attempted to add to the evidence base upon which such policy decisions might be taken. Estimating the fiscal impact of immigration is challenging for many reasons: the population of migrants is diverse, data are limited, and there are numerous theoretical dilemmas to overcome in order to assess fairly the relative fiscal contributions of different groups in society.

      When looking at the static contribution made by the current migrant population in 2016/17, we estimated a larger contribution for EEA migrants compared with both non-EEA migrants and UK natives. This is true for EEA migrants from both older member states and the new member states that joined since 2004. The net positive contribution of the former is driven by higher wages and higher employment rates. For the latter, it is largely driven by higher employment rates and a lower age profile, resulting in a low burden on state pensions and health spending in the short term. Taking migrants as a single group, we find a net fiscal contribution that is marginally higher than that of UK natives.

      Numerous attempts have been made to quantify the static contribution of migrants to the UK’s public finances. While this is an important perspective from which to judge the fiscal impact of immigration, it is also somehow unsatisfying. For most migrants, the choice to come to the UK is, or ends up becoming, a permanent one. Those people will age, and their children will most likely enter the UK workforce.

      For policy-makers and taxpayers, the lifecycle impact of migrants is therefore arguably of greater relevance. If the UK accepts an additional migrant, what is the overall fiscal impact of that decision? In answering this question for the first time, our study breaks new ground.

      From a dynamic perspective, our analysis suggests migrants will make a positive net contribution to the public finances over their lifetime. Even for non-EEA migrants, who presented a net fiscal deficit in our static analysis, their age dynamics work in the favour of the Exchequer.

      A large share of the migrant cohort spends the first stage of its “fiscal lifecycle” overseas––the costly period of education and childhood. A large share of the group also returns to their country of origin before they enter the third and final stage of their fiscal lifecycle––the costly period of retirement and old age. Hence, on average, they represent a fiscal asset to the Exchequer upon arrival on UK soil, which will pay dividends for years into the future.

      https://assets.publishing.service.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attachment_data/file/759376/The_Fiscal_Impact_of_Immigration_on_the_UK.pdf

    410. Dr Jim says:

      As Scotland’s First Minister wishes the Scottish Womens National football team her best wishes in their upcoming match the Internet fills up with Glasgow Rangers fans wishing them just the opposite along with the normal vile cowardly comments they hurl at women

      And Scotland!

    411. Terry callachan says:

      To Scot finlayson 5.29 pm

      Good point.
      You can’t hurry the good taste of quality food grown at the rate it is meant to grow without growth hormones etc.

    412. starlaw says:

      To all would be fruit growers, Scotland is as good as you will get thanks to the long hours of summer daylight which increases the sugar level in the fruit. with Poly tunnels we could really set the heather on fire, (well so to speak)

    413. Legerwood says:

      Taste of food. My husband has an allotment. The first time we had lettuce up from the allotment I realised that lettuce actually has a taste/flavour to it. I had forgotten because such fresh lettuce is not on offer in supermarkets but it was in my childhood because everyone grew vegetables in their gardens. It did mean thought that lettuce and strawberries had very short seasons even shop bought.

    414. CameronB Brodie says:

      Ever wondered what happens if you add critical femmenist legal realism to a load of social science? Have you heard of International Public Law before? In case you haven’t, the full-English Brexit takes a big smelly poo on all of this. Marvelous.

      Critical International Legal Theory

      Introduction

      Although most writings on public international law (PIL) possess an esprit critique, what distinguishes critical international legal theory (CILT) is a sense that the failings in the project are not marginal or exceptional, but endemic, consistent, and structural. Known as CLS (critical legal studies), NAIL (new approaches to international law), Newstream, or simply “the crits,” this school of thought uses a broad array of techniques to address separate, but interrelated, failings perceived in the international legal project: gender biases; racialized exclusions and differentiations; class, poverty, and exploitation; cultural imperialisms; and hidden violence.

      The critical project is primarily an ethical one, often conducted analytically and (in a loose sense) deconstructively. Revealing and destabilizing common assumptions and “false” empirical claims, CLS aims to show the cruelty of the current systems of law, and its reign over a world where 50,000 human beings lose their lives, needlessly and avoidably, every single day. From a critical perspective, mainstream PIL appears solipsistic and blind to the plain facts of reality. Thus, CILT tries to focus on empirical occurrences, historical continuities (and ruptures), on a world outside of legal texts and conference proceedings.

      In this sense, it can very aptly be understood as a successor to the legal realist projects of the early 20th century, focusing on the effects of law – and not merely postulating absences to be filled – but also on the lack of effectiveness in law; for example, the poor need food, not simply a “right to food.” Likewise, in a quasi-Marxist vein, the substantive inequalities disguised and perpetuated by formal equality garner critical concern and attention. CILT is perhaps best understood as a discourse, or movement, about responsibility; about taking responsibility for our actions – and our profession – and refusing to hide behind claims of neutrality, impartiality, expertise, objectivity, optimality, or any other technicalization.

      The mainstream claims of objectivity, neutrality, and determinacy are not targeted for fun or mischief making, but because they function to disguise or evade responsibility – to focus attention on technical expertise rather than moral accountability. Above all, then, CILT is a progressive discourse, attempting to make real and positive changes in the world of distributions and outcomes, or, at the very least, to highlight and delegitimize the mechanisms that preclude these changes. As a result, CILT lacks any obsessive respect for disciplinary boundaries and the narrowly focused research that they produce and promote.

      https://www.oxfordbibliographies.com/view/document/obo-9780199796953/obo-9780199796953-0007.xml

    415. geeo says:

      Abulhaq@6.51pm

      There is NOTHING that WM can do politically to stop Scots voting on an indy question.

      WM, despite the scaremongering, cannot shut Holyrood, unless Sovereign Scots VOTE for it to be shut.

      So, right there, is a political chasm between Scotland and Quebec.

      Scots can hold an indyref EVERY Parliamentary term, as long as 2 things happen.

      1. A party has an indyref in its manifesto.

      2. Scots vote that party into government at Holyrood.

      Feel free to try dispute that wee fact. (Hint: you cannot).

    416. Liz g says:

      Abulhaq @ 6.51
      I think you’ll find that the Treaty of Union was very much a part of the Scottish submission in the Gina Miller Court case !!!
      Which is far from ancient history,and,it pretty much confirmed to anyone paying attention that it is indeed a live document…
      One that the SNP/ Scottish Government is willing to reference.

    417. CameronB Brodie says:

      You also get this stuff, which the full-English Brexit also takes a big smelly poo on. Especially for viewers in Scotland and N. Ireland.

      Self and Identity across the Life Span

      Abstract

      This chapter reviews trends in research and theory on the development of the self across the human life span, as they appear in a wide range of social?science disciplines. The review is organized in terms of three main guises of the self—the self as actor, agent, and author.

      Features of the self?as?actor emerge first in the life span, as manifested in the young child’s observations of his or her own social performances and dispositional traits. With development, features of the self?as?agent—personal goals and plans and their psychological scaffolding—layer over basic dimensions of the actor?self. In emerging adulthood, the self?as?author rises to the fore to address the modern psychosocial challenge of creating a meaningful story, or narrative identity, for one’s life.

      https://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/full/10.1002/9780470880166.hlsd002006

    418. Welsh Sion says:

      Is it just me or haven’t we heard of or seen Jacob Really-Smug since May (eventually) fell on her sword? And not a peep from the MSM that he might be standing as a candidate for Leadership.

      What gives?

    419. Petra says:

      Did anyone else on here watch the D-Day commemoration today? It was of course 99% England, England, England, but what really stood out for me was the theme of the success of standing shoulder to shoulder with Europeans (and others) and yet here we are pulling out of the EU. Crazy.

      Angela Merkel was there, leader of the country that was deemed to be our enemy at that time, and yet there was no mention of Russia or anyone representing the country. Seemingly someone, a Russian Ambassador?, has complained about this today, but when Jon Snow questioned Mordaunt, SoS for Defence, about this she said that it’s due to the current situation between us and Russia. Nothing like rewriting history is there?

      ……………………..

      When I picked up my National today I noticed that there wasn’t one front page of any newspaper, such as the Daily Rag and Herald, that mentioned the Trump / NHS issue other than the National. Rather they highlighted the ‘story’ about overburdened Scottish doctors, repudiated by Professor John Robertson this morning. Then I watched STV news and there it was again. I switched over to the BBC and they were running with the same story. Someone mentioned previously on here that they are all in cahoots with each other and getting their news from the same source. The BBC? Whatever the case this is becoming the norm now and stinks to high heaven.

    420. galamcennalath says:

      geeo says:

      Scots can hold an indyref EVERY Parliamentary term, as long as 2 things happen.

      1. A party has an indyref in its manifesto.

      2. Scots vote that party into government at Holyrood.

      That’s the way I see it.

      Any Scot who has a problem with that can vote for a BritNat party in Holyrood elections.

      Anyone else who has a problem with that should mind their own business. Of course we know there are those unwilling to keep out of it!

    421. chicmac says:

      Schrodingers Cat

      Scotland already has food security in that we are a net exporter of food.

      It is England which needs to net import half the food it consumes.

      Of course local produce, using poly tunnels and other greenhouse methods should ideally be in place locally to minimise carbon from transportation but the main reason for Almeria is that it is far south enough that with the aid of greenhouse methods it can produce fruit and veg all year round, not just in the Summer.

      It will not be too long before EV transportation is used which should remove that issue.

      England could introduce polytunnels and greenhouses to boost its food production up to secure levels at least in the Summer, like The Netherlands has done, but the problem is that that would sully the Green and Pleasant land.

      I do not think Mr/Mrs/Ms Angry of Surrey would like that very much.

      Same problem with on shore wind electricity generation, the cheapest method outside of HE. English NIMBYs have ensured that London has gone for plugging their electricity black hole and meeting their environmental target commitments by promoting off shore wind generation which is the dearest way to produce electricity. A lunatic but sadly not atypical act.

      The cost of electricity to industry in the UK has increased from less than 5p per unit to 10p per unit in less than 10 years.

      This puts manufacturing of products which has a high percentage of electricity charges in its final cost of manufacture at a considerable disadvantage to competitor nations. Smelting for example.

      And they are only at about 9 GW off shore capacity of the planned 30 GW.

      The cost of electricity to industry in Norway is about 2.5p per unit. Rest of Scandinavia about 5p per unit.

    422. Welsh Sion says:

      Apologies for BBC link.

      Brexit: Welsh Assembly backs further EU referendum

      On a Plaid Cymru motion, a total of 36 AMs backed the motion, versus 16 against.

      https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-wales-politics-48532029

    423. CameronB Brodie says:

      I’m on a bit of a roll, so has anyone ever heard of the “LatCrit Theory”? No? Well this might appear a bit left-field again but I don’t think liberal minded Scots have the luxury of being ambivalent towards it, frankly. Scotland’s judges?

      “Latinas/os” and Latina/o Legal Studies:
      A Critical and Self-Critical Review of LatCrit Theory
      and Legal Models of Knowledge Production

      C. Meaning and Location: The Emergence of LatCrit as a Coalitional,
      Antisubordination Knowledge-Production Experiment

      As we summarize below, these principles and practices gave rise to the LatCrit version of a “democratic” approach to critical legal studies, as well as to the then-incipient field of Latina/o legal studies.16

      We believe the LatCrit experience in Latina/o legal studies provides many lessons to help ensure that Latina/o discourses and politics will be more liberational and pluralistic than assimilationist or neocolonialist.17 While being no panacea, we believe this model is best suited for the articulation of “Latina/o” identity in law and society, in part because of historical legacies and structural circumstances – like other traditionally marginalized groups, Latinas/os in the United States today face an entrenched, righteous, and majoritarian status quo resistant to transformative social change.18

      In addition to antisubordination ethics, and as a pragmatic bottom-line, we think that, to effectuate transformation from a position of structural disadvantage, Latinas/os must address and transcend these personal, historical, and structural realities.19 To change the facts on the ground, we must deal with questions of history, power, and possibility.

      This engagement, therefore, calls for more than single-issue nationalisms that, among disempowered minorities, can never hope to garner enough traction to make a serious and enduring dent in established patterns of domination and subordination.20 In the context of the United States, this engagement, to be successful, requires capacious, coalitional projects capable of overcoming entrenched and majoritarian obstacles to social justice.21 These coalitional projects, however, cannot be grounded merely in the ephemeral kinds of “converging interests” that help to explain the Civil Rights successes of the mid-twentieth century, and that two decades later helped to seal their limited fates.

      As history (and the work of critical outsider pioneers) has taught us, interest convergence provides, at best, a temporary and thin platform for concerted social justice action.22 Thus, rather than settle now for still more rickety coalitions based on the short-term politics of self interest, we emphasize the utility of a principled alternative based on post-subordination vision, an alternative explored and modeled (even if imperfectly) in the LatCrit context during the past decade or more.

      In our view, the principal purpose of Latina/o legal studies must be to elucidate and disseminate suppressed knowledge that can help to facilitate this sort of social justice action.23 From our perspective, the point of situating Latinas/os at the center of contemporary legal discourses must be to nudge along this inter-generational, international, and interdisciplinary struggle against historic supremacies and present hierarchies.24

      As a matter both of pragmatism and principle, the LatCrit example, we hope, will help to nudge Latina/o studies and actions in law and policy away from just another iteration of assimilationist, self-interested, politics-as-usual, and toward something new, something better, something more reasonably calculated to promote social justice through knowledge-production and principled action. First, however, we provide a note of clarification regarding our understanding of some key points that frame and inform this ongoing Lat-Crit experiment in theory, community and praxis.25

    424. Liz g says:

      Petra @ 8.15
      RE. D.Day
      I’ll take bets there was no mention of Fort George and the role it played?
      Fort George was where they practiced and I believe that one of the trucks or landing craft is still sunk just of the shoreline.
      Eisenhower or Churchill or both visited the Fort to see the progress for themselves apparently.
      Yet not a word about it !!

    425. schrodingers cat says:

      chicmac

      we export milk but import yogurt etc, we have food security only if we eat nothing but salmon and drink whisky etc.

      modern polytunnels use artificial light to enable all year round cropping

      subsidising the electric energy for such polytunnels is a means by which countries can and do circumnavigate the eu regulations against subsidising their own food products, regulations that norwegian food sold in norway isnt subject too

      nb, the new generation of offshore floating wind turbines have reduced the cost of offshore maintainance by a factor of 4 (you no longer need jack ups or semi subs, you just tow the turbines back to dry dock)

      once again, i reiterate, the point i am making isnt to remove subsidies, only to target our subsidies in such a way to increase the variety of our produce

    426. Welsh Sion says:

      Advance warning for those interested regarding Question Time tomorrow.

      From Thetford.

      On the panel:

      – Nicky Morgan MP, former education secretary, Conservative;
      – Anneliese Dodds MP, Labour’s shadow treasury minister and a former MEP;
      – Drew Hendry MP, Business, Energy and Industrial Strategy spokesperson, SNP;
      – Alison Phillips, editor of the Daily Mirror;
      – Piers Morgan, journalist, broadcaster and presenter of ITV’s Good Morning
      Britain.

    427. schrodingers cat says:

      @chicmac

      It will not be too long before EV transportation is used which should remove that issue.
      ————–

      perhaps, but until it does the carbon footprint remains

      also, our food security will depend on someother country?

    428. geeo says:

      galamcennalath@8.18pm

      Further to that point..

      Pro Indy party Manifesto: “vote for us and we will hold an indyref, no reason required, if you do not want one, vote for someone not offering one”.

      EVERY Holyrold election until we win an indyref if need be.

      All this chit chat about “no appetite for an indyref” is just nonsense.

      If Scots vote for a Party which is pro holding an indyref, and that party forms the government, it is the will of the Scottish people to have an indyref.

      No if’s no but’s.

      If Scots do not want one, they have that option at the ballot box also.

      For all the unionist bullcrap, it basically is as simple as that.

    429. schrodingers cat says:

      Legerwood says:
      5 June, 2019 at 7:43 pm
      Taste of food. My husband has an allotment. The first time we had lettuce up from the allotment I realised that lettuce actually has a taste/flavour to it. I had forgotten because such fresh lettuce is not on offer in supermarkets but it was in my childhood because everyone grew vegetables in their gardens.

      ——————-

      the produce in supermarkets is as fresh now than it has ever been

      —————
      Terry callachan says:
      5 June, 2019 at 7:08 pm
      To Scot finlayson 5.29 pm

      Good point.
      You can’t hurry the good taste of quality food grown at the rate it is meant to grow without growth hormones etc.
      ———–

      havers, modern greenhouses dont chemically speed up growth, most are completely organic due to the lack of need of pesticides

      —————-
      Scot finlayson, taste is a fuction of the plants molecular make up, it isnt an essence, an undefined, je ne sais quoi, lumeniforous ether etc

    430. galamcennalath says:

      Liz g says:

      I’ll take bets there was no mention of Fort George and the role it played?

      Nor of all the landing craft training which went on around Loch Fyne. I believe it’s where people were trained on how to ‘drive’ landing craft. HMS Quebec was the name of the base I think.

      My mother in law was in the WRENs and based there.

    431. CameronB Brodie says:

      The missing LatCrit link.
      ecollections.law.fiu.edu/cgi/viewcontent.cgi?article=1054&context=lawreview

      And a bit more critical legal thought.

      What is radical in ‘radical international law’?

      This article started life as a response to the call for papers for the international Workshop ‘Towards a Radical International Law’, held at the London School of Economics in April 2011. The call for papers started with a bold declaration:

      International law is a prominent site for the investiture of hope in the face of global insecurities. Yet, as inequality deepens, violence remains rampant, and the earth’s resources become exhausted, the idioms in which that hope is typically expressed – human rights, development, international crime, and so on – are revealing their complicities and limitations. Some radical rethinking of international law seems urgently needed.[1]

      http://criticallegalthinking.com/2012/07/04/what-is-radical-in-radical-international-law/

    432. Dan says:

      Re. Food security.
      Where your food is physically grown is one aspect. Who controls the seeds is quite another.
      Are you cool with companies like Monsanto and Bayer and totally believe they have your best interests at heart.
      You bought their seed… now you have to buy their additive package to make it actually grow. Sucker!

      I posted a link to this 2min trailer for the film “In Our Hands” over on Off-Topic the other day, but will stick it here for more exposure.

      http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FQPyKy-a1QU

      It was filmed in England after UKexit from EU vote and has the usual errors in terminology such “UK is a country” etc, but worth tracking down a copy to watch the whole film (approx.1hr 30min).

    433. Robert Peffers says:

      @Joe says: 5 June, 2019 at 3:49 pm:

      ” … The country in question has no sovereign status in real terms.”

      I have to dispute that claim. What you never hear Westminster mention is that every EU member state has a veto and that means if they veto anything it is not adopted by the EU. Which, in turn, means if a member state doesn’t then agree with any EU recommendation that the member state in question must have agree to it or they would have prevented it by vetoing it.

      Seems to me there is more claptrap claimed about the EU than anything else. It isn’t rocket science that if a member state doesn’t use their veto over something they disagree with they have no one to blame but themselves if they later don’t like it.

    434. CameronB Brodie says:

      The BBC in Scotland and the full English Brexit both take a big smelly poo on the Scottish identity and social psychology. Fortunately, not all our heads zip at the back.

      SOCIAL PSYCHOLOGY OF IDENTITIES

      Abstract

      In this chapter I review the social psychological underpinnings of identity, emphasizing social cognitive and symbolic interactionist perspectives and research, and I turn then to key themes of current work on identity – social psychological, sociological, and interdisciplinary. I emphasize the social bases of identity, particularly identities based on ethnicity, race, sexuality, gender, class, age, and (dis)ability, both separately and as they intersect. I also take up identities based on space, both geographic and virtual.

      I discuss struggles over identities, organized by social inequalities, nationalisms, and social movements. I conclude by discussing postmodernist conceptions of identities as fluid, multidimensional, personalized social constructions that reflect sociohistorical contexts, approaches remarkably consistent with recent empirical social psychological research, and I argue explicitly for a politicized social psychology of identities that brings together the structures of everyday lives and the sociocultural realities in which those lives are lived.

      Key Words
      social construction of identity, language, intersections of identities, social cognition, symbolic interaction

      “Identity : : : is a concept that neither imprisons (as does much in sociology) nor detaches (as does much in philosophy and psychology) persons from their social and symbolic universes, [so] it has over the years retained a generic force that few concepts in our field have.”
      (Davis 1991:105)

      “[I]dentity is never a priori, nor a finished product; it is only ever the problematic process of access to an image of totality.”(Bhabha 1994:51)

      https://www.uvm.edu/pdodds/files/papers/others/2000/howard2000a.pdf

    435. Joe says:

      @Dan

      I was talking about Monsanto years ago and its carcinogenic products. When it was still conspiracy theory to do so. Bayer is actually a good match for them as they are murderous criminals also. Just look up what happened with Bayer and their treatment for Hemophiliacs.

      1 interesting thing is Russia made the commitment to be the largest producer of non GMO food on the planet. Unlike in the U.S where a non GMO farmer can be sued if any GMO is found on their land, in Russia if GMO crops get onto other land its considered pollution and the GMO grower gets sued.

      They are giving away land for ordinary people to start farms on.

    436. Dan says:

      Looks like Ford will be shutting their engine plant at Bridgend with loss of 1500 jobs.

    437. Joe says:

      @ Robert Peffers

      Its not the veto issue. Its the basic starting point of a Eurozone country:

      – no ability to organise their own trade deals
      – large over rides of immigraton policy
      – no control over monetary policy.

      The last one is the one that in all honesty will cause the most problems in the long run. The ECB is struggling – very low/zero interest rates. QE has been done to death. There’s not much room to move.

      That’s why I think Scotland, given its natural wealth, should not adopt the Euro and perhaps not even be a full member when leaving the UK.

    438. schrodingers cat says:

      Dan says:
      5 June, 2019 at 9:02 pm
      Re. Food security.
      Where your food is physically grown is one aspect. Who controls the seeds is quite another.
      Are you cool with companies like Monsanto and Bayer
      ————–

      no, isnt that the point about scotland being indy and able to decide such issues for itself

    439. Jockanese Wind Talker says:

      “Is it just me or haven’t we heard of or seen Jacob Really-Smug….” you say @Welsh Sion says at 8:11 pm

      https://weegingerdug.wordpress.com/2019/06/05/a-simple-choice/

      “However today, lost amongst the wall to wall coverage of the D-Day commemorations – that’s Donald Day in case you were wondering – the ERG published its carefully thought out and extensively researched paper on leaving the EU on 31 October without a deal.”

    440. Dan says:

      @schrodingers cat at 9:22 pm

      For the benefit of the less observant… we ain’t dissolved the union yet…

      My point of bringing up Monsanto and Bayer potentially controlling aspects of our food production was to make folk consider this potential situation, which in turn might make them see the benefit of Scotland having the power to tell them to GTF!
      With this shower of flumps in control of Westminster I imagine they’d quite happily sign us up to a damaging trade deal that involved companies with somewhat dubious motives.

    441. ScottieDog says:

      @joe
      “That’s why I think Scotland, given its natural wealth, should not adopt the Euro and perhaps not even be a full member when leaving the UK.”

      Certainly agree there. The stability growth pact is a nonsensical policy. Look out for what’s brewing in Italy. They are threatening to effectively launch a parallel currency. They have faced down threats by Brussels of a £4BN fine – just because they want to increase government spending.

      I’m hopeful (but not confident) that the growth of the Green Party in Europe will lead to economic reform.

      At least being part of EFTA still allows capital controls as Iceland demonstrated after the GFC. That would be the preferred option for me.

    442. @schrodingers cat,

      Chlorinated chicken is only part of the US use of EU banned chemicals in food that we will have to accept in any trade deal,

      `Supermarket produce sections bulging with a year-round supply of perfectly round, bright red-orange tomatoes have become all but a national birthright.

      But in Tomatoland, which is based on his James Beard Award–winning article, “The Price of Tomatoes,” investigative food journalist Barry Estabrook reveals the huge human and environmental cost of the $5 billion fresh tomato industry.

      Fields are sprayed with more than 100 different herbicides and pesticides. Tomatoes are picked hard and green and artificially gassed until their skins acquire a marketable hue.

      Modern plant breeding has tripled yields, but produces fruits with a fraction of the calcium, Vitamin A, and Vitamin C, and fourteen tiimes as much sodium as the tomatoes our parents enjoyed.

      The relentless drive for low costs has fostered a thriving modern-day slave trade in the United States. How have we come to this point?`

      such is our future inside the brexit UK.

    443. Joe says:

      @ Scottiedog

      Totally Not many people are aware of whats going on in Italy. Its seismic. It also shows what the other side of the EU face.

      Im very proud of the folk of Iceland also.

      Im going to have to get up to speed with the Greens to be honest. My politics are a bit behind.

    444. ronnie anderson says:

      More Trump woo’s
      edition.cnn.com/2019/06/03/politics/george-nader-mueller-witness-child-pornography-charges/index.html

    445. Hamish100 says:

      Ahundredthidiot says:
      5 June, 2019 at 10:26 am
      OT
      regime propaganda wing in full ‘dont mention the Russians were our Allies’ mode.

      While Clydebank was being blitzed in March 1941 The Soviets were still in a non-aggression pact with Nazi Germany. They Soviets had already invaded Poland, Latvia, Estonia Finland etc. Just thought I should point that out.

      There is no doubt that ultimately the peoples making up the USSR sacrificed much.

    446. Dan says:

      Re. Food taste.
      I recall reading a New Scientist magazine that was discussing the altering / engineering of plants to suit consumer tastes. It pointed out that the bitter taste you get in greens such as cabbage is actually a very significant factor of why there are health benefits to eating them.
      Of course humans are now so bonkers and fussy they dinnae like the taste so it’s engineered out, thus they lose the health benefits which iirc were possibly factors in reducing ailments such as bowel cancer.

      This prolonged wet weather appears to have prevented my lettuce seeds from germinating. No worries for me as I’ll just pick the dandelion leaves and flowers* to add to my salad as they have more goodness and calcium than most lettuces. The bitter taste is easily masked with a bit of olive oil and vinegar dressing. Austerity Wokeness.

      *NB: Only eat dandelions from areas that haven’t been sprayed with either weedkiller or dug piss!

      Stu will be going ballistic with all this veg talk! LOL

    447. Petra says:

      Liz I didn’t hear any Scottish veterans (Irish or Welsh) being interviewed by the BBC, even although dozens of English people were. When they covered the military industry in the UK, such as the production of ships / tanks, everything was made in England. I nearly fell off of my couch when I heard that. And forget about Fort George, Scotland got two mentions only at the Trump / Queen Portsmouth fiasco.

      1. Dalkeith Scot, Group Captain James Stagg, meteorologist, persuaded Eisenhower to launch the invasion on the 6th June rather than the 5th as per US (and other) meteorologists. Eisenhower went along with Stagg. In retrospect, this decision was absolutely critical to the success of the massive venture and avoidance of loss of thousands of lives. However even with this they “underplayed” the whole thing. They held a little stage play that involved five people (and a map). Eisenhower and his meteorologists wore US uniforms. The two UK characters wore British Uniforms weighed down with medals. James Stagg, although a Group Captain in the Royal Air Force, wore an open neck shirt and trousers. Kind of scruffy looking. No one actually said that he was a Scot in fact. The “clue” was the actor’s Scottish accent. Some in the audience could have mistaken it for being Irish or whatever.

      2. A wee mention of Lord Lovat (who would be taken to be English) and his Scottish piper followed by a tune from a pipe band.

      And that was that. The Scots contribution to D-Day.

      ………………

      @ Welsh Sion at 8:44pm ….”QT.”

      Piers Morgan on again? To talk over and shout down the others on the panel, as per usual.

    448. Robert Peffers says:

      @Abulhaq says: 5 June, 2019 at 6:51 pm:@Robert Peffers

      ” … As usual Mr Peffers you go off on your familiar rant, totally missing the point.”

      Aye! And that’ll be in your Oh! So humble opinion, of course, Abulhaq.

      ” … I was not implying historic or constitutional similarities just political ones.”

      Like hell you were. It was, of course, your usual veiled attack upon the FM/SG and SNP we have all come to expect from you. In any cast there are no political similarities in the two situation anyway.

      ” … If Scotland ends up in a political situation similar to that of Québec, two failed referendums, then don’t say you haven’t been warned.”

      Oh! Grow up. You are not nearly so clever as you imagine yourself. I’ve been a very long time at this independence for Scotland game and I’ve heard every argument, both for and against, there is to be made. What’s more I’ve heard every defence there is to oppose them.

      One minute you are acting all frustrated because Nicola has not prematurely called a referendum and urging the SNP to get tough with the MSM, Broadcasters and unionist politicians because you claim Nicola and the SNP are being just too nice. Now you are w comparing Scotland with Quebec and warning of the risk of ending up with two lost referendums.

      You cannot have it both ways. In its entire history the SNP has never been for any form on actions other than by peaceful ones and by the ballot box. They aren’t going to change now. Do you know what happened to the several would be militant factions who attempted to use or even advocate violence? Oh! Yes there have been several.

      Now get this – the Kingdom of Scotland, whether you like it or not, is indeed legally a equally sovereign partner Kingdom in a union called the United Kingdom. Sooner or later that will be the argument that will be fought and won. Referendums are a secondary matter and are only required for no other reason than to provide a proven majority of the legally sovereign people of Scotland who want the union ended. When that happens there will be an end to the union and Westminster will be unable to offer a satisfactory defence against that legal claim.

      … Your historic, treaties of Union based argument is a reasonable one but one long abandoned by the SNP as of little effectiveness given the nature of the aggressive, anglocentricity of the modern Union.”

      For starters there is no, “Treaties of Union based argument”. Simply because there is, not was, only one Treaty of Union and if there is none then there is no union.

    449. Robert Peffers says:

      @Joe says: 5 June, 2019 at 9:22 pm:

      ” … Its not the veto issue. Its the basic starting point of a Eurozone country:

      Its not the veto issue. Its the basic starting point of a Eurozone country:

      ” … – no ability to organise their own trade deals”

      Eh! What are you talking about? Nicola Sturgeon has been all over the World including China and set up trade agreements.

      ” … – large over rides of immigration policy!

      The UK has powers over immigration policy, Joe. For goodness sake, only this week there were news items about Dungavel Detention Centre, for illegal immigrants.

      … – no control over monetary policy.

      Rubbish! No EU member state can even be made to use the Euro. Tell you what EU member states have a great deal more control over monetary policy than Scotland, Wales and N.I. have within the UK.

      ” … That’s why I think Scotland, given its natural wealth, should not adopt the Euro”

      Joe, a third of EU member states do not use the Euro and the EU doesn’t, and cannot, make them do so. The UK has never adopted the Euro and neither has Sweden and both are founder members of the EU. Only within the past couple of weeks the EU made a statement confirming that no compulsion is placed upon EU member states to use the Euro.

      I’ve no idea where you are getting your information from but it simply is not true. The fact is that the EU has no way to enforce things upon member states. The do recommend regulations but cannot enforce them and I’ve already explained why upthread.

      Every EU Member state, no matter how small the state, has a veto and that means if the EU passes something that no one has vetoed it and that means they have agreed to it. The EU is democratic and works by consensus. In plain language that means they states vote on things but they must have given consent to them because they didn’t veto them.

      For a topical example the UK is attempting to tell Scotland that Scotland cannot hold a referendum but the UK has signed up to the Human Rights Legislation of the EU, the United Nations and the Geneva Convention that all say, “Any identifiable group of people are entitled to self determination”. Now how can the UK justify refusing Scotland to hold a referendum on self determination after signing several treaties that say they can’t?

    450. chicmac says:

      SC

      We actually grow more beef than we eat, more lamb than we eat, more cereal than we eat, more potatoes than we eat, more ocean caught fish than we eat, more milk than we drink.

      We do have to net import most of our fruit and veg although there are exceptions like strawberries.

      We do have to net import pork and ham as well.

      Eggs is about break even.

      We also produce about a smallish plank of wood per person per day which is sufficient for our needs, in England they produce just about enough for an old school ruler, so the UK is a net wood importer as well.

      The majority of Winter fruit and veg in Europe comes from Almeria although most of that goes to Germany and France not so much to the UK. OK that currently incurs a carbon debt for transport but not as much as from other airts.

    451. Jockanese Wind Talker says:

      Cracking front page on tomorrow’s National:

      https://mobile.twitter.com/ScotNational/status/1136368845864677381

      “Front page exclusive: The lie of the “Spanish veto” busted for good. Leak hits back at media misinformation – says Spain WON’T block Scottish EU membership, that has always been their position, and also makes clear “there is no queue” for an independent Scotland to join.”

      Expect to rake under all the other BritNat rags to find it I’d suspect!

    452. CameronB Brodie says:

      Of course, the full-English Brexit takes a bit smelly poo on the international rule-of-law and the potential for rational jurisprudence. This is because English legal doctrine is considered immutable and is ambivalent to international law. Time for a bit more International Legal Theory?

      N.B. “internal sovereignty”, or the ability to direct one’s future, is the most widely respected human right there is. The full-English Brexit annihilated the “internal sovereignty” of Scotland’s EU supporting residents.

      International Law as Ideology: Theorizing the Relationship between International Law and International Politics

      Theorization of the relationship of international law to the broader political system of which it is a sub-system is of relevance to scholars of international law and international relations. The dominant post-war paradigm in international relations has been realism,1 which dismisses international law as being virtually irrelevant to matters of ‘high’ politics.2

      The process of international politics is accounted for by the concept of power and international law is regarded as having no intrinsic significance.3 The retention of a power-law dichotomy has effectively blocked moves towards a more sophisticated conceptualization of the significance of international law to international politics. It is understandable that, as a group, international lawyers have perceived little to be gained from dialogue with proponents of realism and have remained sheltered behind legal positivism.

      The two disciplines have for the most part remained comfortably disengaged on the subject4 And yet, international legal theorists have increasingly recognized their need for greater understanding of the politics of international law5 and stand to gain much from a fresh theorization of the international law-international politics relationship that subsumes the power-law dichotomy. Such a theorization would offer a more meaningful basis for inter-disciplinary dialogue, the goal of which would be a theory of international politics capable of incorporating legal debate itself.

      I. Realism and International Law

      The characteristic feature of modern realism6 is its use of the power concept to explain the course of international politics. The primary unit of analysis is the State which is regarded as operating in an anarchical system dominated by conflict7 Foreign policy decisions are based on a rational calculation as to how most effectively to enhance State power.8

      Realism aligns international law with power in so far as international law is considered a tool at the disposal of the most powerful. Yet international law and power are also frequently contrasted.9 A realist perspective deems international law to have no significance in its own right and so seeks to ascertain why it is that States obey international law….

      http://www.ejil.org/pdfs/5/1/1245.pdf

    453. CameronB Brodie says:

      Serious question here. Are Scotland’s judges rational liberals or are the right-wing supporters of white British nationalism? Asking on behalf of a nation.

      Dworkin and the One Law Principle: A Pluralist Critique
      https://www.cairn.info/revue-internationale-de-philosophie-2005-3-page-363.htm

    454. call me dave says:

      My partner is a WASPI and has nothing good to say about that ‘Scottish Lab’ Dick showboating outside Holyrood!

      PS:
      ‘The National’ headlines tomorrow is worth buying the paper for.
      Good read , good X-word, Supports Independence.

      Front page exclusive:
      The lie of the “Spanish veto” busted for good.

    455. Patrick Roden says:

      @Robert Peffers, thanks for the information Robert.

      Re: Food, I remember back in the late ninety’s I was in Germany and had a salad with tomatoes, and immediately noticed how tasty they were compared to the water filled crap I was used tofrom Tesco’s.

      Is it just the fact that these big supermarkets buy up all the tomatoes, and that they are ‘force fed’ to make them grow quick enough for Tesco’s demand (I say Tesco, but could easily say Asda etc)

      Whatever the reason, we are yet again being ‘short-changed’ and the political leaders who have power (At Westminster) are silent on the matter!

      They wonder why so many people are obese or sick!

    456. Fireproofjim says:

      Hamish100 @10.10
      Everyone who knows anything about WW2 knows that the Soviets suffered horrendous casualties and that the Red Army eventually tore the guts out of the Wehrmacht and made victory possible.
      However it was a close run thing thanks to the blind and brutal stupidity of the Stalin leadership. For a start they purged 90% of the army officers (ie killed them) just before the war. Then they signed the Ribbentrop/Molotov agreement which carved up Poland between Hitler and Stalin, and, incidentally murdered 15,000 Polish Officers in Katyn Forest. Then when the British, who were reading the Germany army codes, told them that Hitler was about to invade, Stalin said it was a capitalist plot to turn Hitler against him, and Germany continued to receive massive raw materials from Russia up to the very day of the German invasion.
      The bravery and endurance of the Russian soldiers is a separate thing from the wicked regime which ruled over them.
      Read Alexander Solzhenitsyn who was sent to the labour camps for a joke about Stalin in a letter home.

    457. Dr Jim says:

      If the National had a front page hand written invitation from the leaders of the EU committing to welcoming Scotland immediately on voting for Independence Yoonworld would call it a lie

      Just like they called their own VOW on the Daily Record the truth

    458. CameronB Brodie says:

      I might appear as if a bit possessed, but the full-English Brexit scares the crap out of me. I’ll ask again, are Scotland’s judges liberal democrats or fascist racists?

      Legal Realism and Natural Law

      Abstract:

      The possibility of any meaningful relationship between the legal realists and natural law looks at first rather far-fetched. When it first appeared on the jurisprudential scene, legal realism was savagely attacked by proponents of natural law theory. To this day legal realism is depicted as a modernist, critical, at times almost nihilist approach to law, the polar opposite of the ancient natural law theory that traces its roots to Greek and Roman philosophy, and insists on unchanging objective values. And yet, two of the most famous legal realists, Karl Llewellyn and Jerome Frank, expressed in some of their writings more than a passing endorsement of natural law theory.

      The purpose of this essay is to try and explain this seemingly odd aspect of their work and in this way help in reassessing their work. We do so by explaining how they understood natural law and how they incorporated it in their work. Though they did not understand the term in precisely the same way, for both of them natural law was connected to the values of the community, which both of them thought were central to understanding law, for explaining how it could remain relatively certain, and ultimately, how it derived its authority.

      Keywords:
      Legal realism, natural law, Karl Llewellyn, Jerome Frank, jurisprudence

      http://digitalcommons.osgoode.yorku.ca/cgi/viewcontent.cgi?article=1092&context=olsrps

    459. ben madigan says:

      Re Tomatoes
      Tomatoes grown outdoors in hot, sunny Mediterrean countries (Portugal, Spain, S France, Italy and Greece) as well as the North African countries bordering the Med are absolutely delicious. Nowadays they come in all shapes and sizes – some are best in salads, others in sauces etc
      Tomatoes grown in glass/green houses or plastic tunnels in Northern European countries (ireland, Scotland, Guernsey etc ) do not have the same flavour . It’s a geography thing
      My own dad was personally deeply disappointed his greenhouse tomatoes did not taste like Mediterrean tomatoes even though he had sourced his tomato plants in Italy.
      Such is life!
      PS the influence of latitude has (at present AFAIK) little to do with genetically modified types of tomatoes – large, small, on the vine etc

    460. The Dog Philosopher says:

      Just letting my belly rumble…

      Just caught a discussion on Newsnight about the forthcoming Tory Beauty Contest with some of the usual suspects. It crossed my mind, not for the first time in my life, how dreadful these people look and sound. Is it their public school upbringing? Is it the fact that for them everything is about the bottom fucking line? It’s the dead eyes they all have – that stern, brutish headmaster-look. Can you imagine asking any of these people what their favourite Hendrix album is? I noticed Trump standing erect for the SSB and I thought, wouldn’t it be nice if it was Jimi’s version?

      About all this war sentimentality … Is it just me or has this all been ramped up since the Falklands ‘War’, when the media and the political classes discovered what a powerful, propaganda tool the whole ‘constant war’ mantra can be? I don’t remember being bombarded like this during the 60s or the 70s. Another thing I find curious is the omission of Russia and Germany. I didn’t see or hear anything about the sacrifice of so many Russians. Or are they, conveniently, just the evil ones now? Likewise the German people. No reconciliation to be made, just a constant reconstruction of the victorious past wherein the Anglo-American Pact, helped along by the ongoing creativity of Hollywood, covers itself in eternal glory.

    461. schrodingers cat says:

      Scot Finlayson says:
      5 June, 2019 at 9:53 pm
      @schrodingers cat,

      ————–

      Scot, i;m not disagreeing with anything in your post, intensive farming of one kind of produce, eg tomatoes in an area is just as bad as turning the whole of scotland into a huge sheep farm etc

      what i am saying is, this 38 acre tomato green house in jersey could just as well be in scotland. I would produce enough organic tomatoes and cucumbers for the whole of scotland. we could subsidise it so home grown produce was half the price. this would minimise the effects of intensive tomato production in the fields of spain and the us. and it would crop all year round.

      also, once we produce enough tomatos to feed scotland, i suggest we wouldnt subsidise another green house to do the same for export, why would we? what would we in scotland gain from this? no, if we controlled the subsidies we could encourage another green house here to produce, eg grapes etc, we would continue in this vein until we were self sufficient.

      employment, food security, eco friendly,bio diversity, little carbon footprint, and a tourist attraction…… what is the problem. norway manage this, why not scotland?

    462. Thepnr says:

      @The Dog Philosopher

      So many questions? Nae fucking answers though.

      WHY?

      Might be because the questions are stupid and totally irrelevant to anything at all to do with Independence.

      Your “belly rumble” just blew right out and it wasn’t missed, the stench was obvious.

      “Is it just me or has this all been ramped up since the Falklands ‘War”

      Hahaha almost pissed myself 🙂

    463. HandandShrimp says:

      Plaudits to Matt Hancock (who he) for the full blown Godwin in the Tory headless chicken race.

    464. schrodingers cat says:

      ben madigan says:
      Re Tomatoes
      the influence of latitude has (at present AFAIK) little to do with genetically modified types of tomatoes
      ———–
      different fruit types are created, crossed etc, in the normal natural way. they genetically fingerprint the leaves of new shoots to see if they contain the desired genes. no modification is needed. eg, if you are trying to create a red fleshed apple, the genetic fingerprint of a leaf will tell you whether your cross has been successful without the need for the sampling to grow into a tree and bear the actual fruit.

      btw, taste exists entirely in the mind, how something is grown, where it is grown, how it is packaged, branded and how it is advertised does effect peoples perception of taste

      eg, comparing lemons, strawberries and blaeberries, when asked, everyonce will say lemons are by far the most acidic when in fact, strawberries are just as acidic, but nature created strawberries to smell sweet with a vibrant red colour to fool animals and us into thinking they arnt acidic. It works. food producers are now experimenting with such techniques to help replace artificial food sweetners.

      there is no scientific evidence that people can tell the difference between green house and field grown tomatoes
      its an old wives tale

    465. Thepnr says:

      @The Dog Philosopher

      I apologise for baiting you, I read your post entirely the wrong way. Sorry.

    466. The Dog Philosopher says:

      Thepnr

      And the taste of tomatoes has what relevance to independence, exactly?

      I’m not sure why you’ve chosen me to vent your spleen. Generally you seem like a reasonable guy who is keen to win over undecided voters. But not with that attitude. Maybe you lack a sense of humour. Or hate Hendrix?

      But then, I suppose you posses all the answers, eh?

    467. Thepnr says:

      Don’t think I ever mentioned tomatoes? Was I right in the first place?

    468. CameronB Brodie says:

      I stuck this on the previous thread by mistake, but I think it fits with the material I posted up-thread. Sorry for the double post.

      —-

      As the British constitution derives its rational legal force from natural law, it really does come as a bit of a foundational shock to my perceived personal security, that minds trained in Scots law can be ambivalent about the full-English Brexit. In particular, the direct assault on the natural law justification of the British constitution.

      Without a defensible legal identity and constitutional rights defined through natural law, individual liberty and well-being is impossible. The British constitution defines such rights but the British constitution is apparently considered optional documentation by the New Right.

      Where is the legal defense of my EU legal personality? Shall we crow-fund one?

      NATURAL LAW, THE CONSTITUTION, AND
      THE THEORY AND PRACTICE OF JUDICIAL
      REVIEW

      The concept of “natural law” is central to the western tradition of thought about morality, politics, and law. Although the western tradition is not united around a single theoretical account of natural law, its principal architects and leading spokesmen – from Aristotle and Thomas Aquinas to Abraham Lincoln and Martin Luther Kinghave shared a fundamental belief that humanly created “positive” law is morally good or bad-just or unjust-depending on its conformity to the standards of a “natural,” (viz., moral) law that is no mere human creation.

      The natural law is, thus, a “higher” law, albeit a law that is in principle accessible to human reason and not dependent on (though entirely compatible with and, indeed, illumined by) divine revelation.’ Saint Paul, for example, refers to a law “written on [the] heart[]” which informs the consciences of even the Gentiles who do not have the revealed law of Moses to guide them.2 Many centuries later, Thomas Jefferson appeals to “the Laws of Nature and of Nature’s God” in justifying the American Revolution.’

      Most modern commentators agree that the American founders were firm believers in natural law and sought to craft a constitution that would conform to its requirements, as they understood them, and embody its basic principles for the design of a just political order. The framers of the Constitution sought to create institutions and procedures that would afford respect and protection to those basic rights (“natural rights”) that people possess, not as privileges or opportunities granted by the state, but as principles of natural law which it is the moral duty of the state to respect and protect.

      Throughout the Twentieth century, however, a lively debate has existed regarding the question of whether the Constitution incorporates natural law in such a way as to make it a source of judicially enforceable, albeit unwritten, constitutional rights and other guarantees. 4 In my remarks this evening, I will discuss two significant “moments” in this debate: (1) the exchange between majority and dissenting Justices in the 1965 Supreme Court case of Griswold v. Connecticut;’ and (2) an important effort by a distinguished constitutional law scholar, the late Edward S. Corwin of Princeton University, to specify, and draw out the implications of, the rootedness of American constitutional law in natural law concepts….

      http://digitalcommons.osgoode.yorku.ca/cgi/viewcontent.cgi?article=1092&context=olsrps

    469. Ahundredthidiot says:

      Dog Philospher – spot on

      Thepnr has apologised for misreading, lets all move on.

    470. CameronB Brodie says:

      Crowd-fund obvs. 🙂

      Kelsen, Hart, and legal normativity

      Abstract

      This article focuses on issues relating to legal normativity, emphasizing the way these matters have been elaborated in the works of Kelsen and Hart and later commentators on their theories. First, in Section 2, the author offers a view regarding the nature of law and legal normativity focusing on Kelsen’s work (at least one reasonable reading of it). The argument is that the Basic Norm is presupposed when a citizen chooses to read the actions of legal officials in a normative way. In this Kelsenian approach, all normative systems are structurally and logically similar, but each normative system is independent of every other system – thus, law is, in this sense, conceptually separate from morality.

      Second, in Section 3, the author turns to Hart’s theory, analyzing the extent to which his approach views legal normativity as sui generis. This approach raises questions regarding what has become a consensus view in contemporary jurisprudence: that law makes moral claims. The author shows how a more deflationary (and less morally-flavored) understanding of the nature of law is tenable, and may, in fact, work better than current conventional (morality-focused) understandings.

      Keywords:
      Hans Kelsen, H. L. A. Hart, legal normativity, law and morality, moral obligation to obey the law, Basic Norm

      https://journals.openedition.org/revus/3984

    471. Ahundredthidiot says:

      Since we are all on a different topic, (note fireproofjim comment) perhaps – should we lose this – that the Rev, and possibly all of us, will find ourselves behind the same kind of bars.

      The generation before us risked everything. Would we do the same in the face of tyranny?

    472. Dan says:

      @schrodingers cat at 12:16 am

      Is it not the case that a particular seed inherits characteristics from the previous generation of seed.
      Therefore in days gone by a seed to be kept for planting in the next season would have been selected from a plant that was grown in the area which grew strong with a good yield.
      By practicing this method year on year the seed slowly gain specific characteristics that make them better acclimatised to that specific area where they are grown. IE By selecting the seeds from the best performing plants the strain is effectively evolving to suit the soil type and climatic conditions of that area.
      This is touched on in the film I mentioned upthread with regard to grain.
      This is why buying generic seed may not be the way to go. Not just because it isn’t ideally suited to a specific growing region, but also because the ownership of the seed copyright has many restrictions and legal consequences if there is a failure to comply with the regulations and constraints of the producer.

      I understand heritage seeds don’t have this issue, plus they aren’t fucked around with in a way that makes some plants produce sterile seeds so they can’t be kept to sow in the next season anyway.

      As an example of this practice I keep some of my best performing runner beans as seed for the next year.
      This year I’m also going to try and perform some corjette sex too…
      …in the hope I can get viable seeds for next year.

    473. Ahundredthidiot says:

      Jesus, I await a CBB post with personal conviction – fed up with your cut and paste bullshit mate.

      give it over

    474. CameronB Brodie says:

      Ahundredthidiot
      Here’s one just for you then mate. If you’re not interested in the bigger picture, why tell us?

      Adorno’s Theory of Philosophical and Aesthetic Truth

      Symposium Introduction

      As Donald Trump and his minions and supporters continue to assault – daily and explicitly – the notion of truth, whether in its theoretical or practical employments, Owen Hulatt’s book, Adorno’s Theory of Philosophical and Aesthetic Truth, becomes more relevant than ever. Since I have written about the book elsewhere,1 I will keep my introductory remarks here incredibly short and just allow the participants and Hulatt to speak.

      To begin, here’s a quick summary of the book. Through a novel reading of Dialectic of Enlightenment, Hulatt suggests that rationality develops from human self-preservation (27), but that through the course of history, human conceptuality becomes deformed, leading to a form of life that is deformed in its organization and in how it produces subjects (chapter 2). The remainder of the book offers interesting and powerful meditations on how philosophy and art might overcome such a state of affairs. The only other point I want to note is Hulatt’s ambitious attempt to offer a unified account of aesthetics and epistemology in the thought of Theodor W. Adorno.

      This strikes me as both true to Adorno’s intentions, and equally importantly, as offering renewed life and urgency to both art and epistemology, showing how one craves and needs the other as much as itself, and that the possibilities and fortunes of each are multiplied when presented in this way. For this reason, and for the fact that Hulatt places Adorno in conversation with a range of contemporary philosophy, both Anglophone and European, I think that his book is timely and important and will bear a rich discussion.

      The contributions that follow each probe some of the largest issues in Adorno scholarship, revolving around Adorno’s relationship to epistemology, his understanding of art and of mimesis, his ethical ambitions and claims, and his concept of the non-identical and its relationship to critique and thereby to politics. These are all also topics that should appeal to a range of philosophers and critical and political theorists….

      https://syndicate.network/symposia/philosophy/adornos-theory-of-philosophical-and-aesthetic-truth/

    475. Dr Jim says:

      BBC news tells us that the top *British* exports in 2018 were Salmon and Whisky £5.4 billion

    476. CameronB Brodie says:

      I can’t help it if I understand legal and political philosophy and stuff. I’m not working my nuts off for the benefit of my ego, I’m pointing to practical knowledge that could change personal oppinion.

      Resisting the Scaff old: Self-Preservation and
      Limits of Obligation in Hobbes’s Leviathan

      https://www.uoguelph.ca/arts/sites/uoguelph.ca.arts/files/public/Resisting_the_Scaffold_Self-Preservation.pdf

    477. Liz g says:

      Ahundredthidiot @ 12.47
      An answer … Of sorts!!
      There’s an old First Nation tale from America.
      A Grandfather told his Grandson,that inside all of us are two wolves.
      One is Greedy,Violent and Cruel.
      The other is Generous,Peaceful and Kind.
      These two wolves are constantly at war for control of you.
      “Which one wins” asked the Grandson?
      “The one you feed” replies the Grandfather!

      So I’d say, let’s learn from that awful sacrifice of the fallen, like they would want us to,and make sure we feed the right Wolf!

    478. twathater says:

      To ALL I just read a very emotional expose of a nurse called Brian’s reasons for supporting our SNHS over on Stu’s twatter, if only people would stop and think of the utter DEVASTATION the loss of this wondrous and much maligned ( by the SCUM MSM ) organisation would have on their future wellbeing and health security , they would lynch anyone who would dare attempt to take it away from them

      Fuck Trump and the treacherous tory scumbags for their corruption and greed

    479. Petra says:

      Keeping the Scots in the dark.

      Professor John Robertson:- ‘Why we don’t want a Scottish 6 by the same Reporting Scotland team: BBC UK can help the Yes campaign.’

      https://thoughtcontrolscotland.com/2019/06/05/why-we-dont-want-a-scottish-6-by-the-same-reporting-scotland-team-bbc-uk-can-help-the-yes-campaign/

    480. Petra says:

      And once again.

      ‘Spain: We will NOT block an Independent Scotland’s EU membership.’

      https://www.thenational.scot/news/17686950.spain-we-will-not-block-independent-scotlands-eu-membership/?c=rbks4f

    481. Giving Goose says:

      Anyone have an opinion on the story re a Holyrood committee which is seeking to table legislation to cut early access that ministers have to economic data?
      Sounds suspiciously like an effort to spike the Scottish Gov’s powers.

    482. Joe says:

      @Robert Peffers 11:04PM

      Sorry Robert but you are strawmanning me on these points and frankly its coming over as somewhat dishonest

      Out of curiosity – is there anything youd criticise the EU for?

    483. Sinky says:

      Another Union dividend:

      Speaking at a special seminar in the Scottish Parliament, the mother of Andy and Jamie Murray also said she believed more money could be driven into the game if there was a Scottish tennis team.

      Giving a talk as part of a series of seminars in Holyrood by leaders in sport, she said that Tennis Scotland received just £700,000 from the Lawn Tennis Association – around one per cent of the organisation’s budget of £64 million.

      She said tennis “was and is” a minority sport in Scotland and added: “In tennis you can’t play for Scotland – you have to play as part of GB. In some ways this is a disadvantage. If you were able to play for Scotland you could grow it [tennis] through a sense of identity, but it’s a GB sport.”

      https://www.scotsman.com/news/politics/murray-a-scottish-team-could-make-more-children-play-tennis-1-4941707

    484. Ken500 says:

      Bayer and Monsanto are being sued big time in the US. They might not recover. So are other drug companies.

      The Russians thought the 11WW was an imperialist war and told other countries not to participate.

      The US entered the Wat in 1941. Pearl Harbour.

      Some in India acted as a fifth column for Japan because they wanted independence from Britain. The surrender at Singapore. The Japanese could have been defeated. The nuclear bombs?

      Tomatoes were grown in Scotland on the Clyde. They could be grown again. Large greenhouses.

    485. Abulhaq says:

      @Robert Peffers
      Do you actually read the stuff people post or simply pick out one or two ‘triggers’.
      Both Catalonia and Québec went through the equivalents of project fear. Capitalists threatening to leave in droves, banks potentially failing, what currency? overt political hostility from Ottawa/Madrid, alleged threats to security, the ‘talented’ leaving, you’ll be dirt poor, third world etc outside Canada/Spain and we will not cooperate with you etc.
      Remember the things said by Osborne? Québec/Catalonia had its nasty little Osbornes too.
      I believe that Scotland will be free when a majority in the country is prepared to risk all, come hell or high water, in the cause. Treaties will not figure in that, simply a good helping of raw political energy and will.
      Are we there yet?

    486. Joe says:

      @giving goose

      I find it hard to get some UK economic data anyway, especially when compared to the EU and US.

      What data is it?

    487. Macart says:

      This may have been posted before, but still well worth reading.

      https://twitter.com/indyNurseBrian/status/1136443303644344326

    488. Abulhaq says:

      Lone piper on a Normandy beach…what would England do without ‘the Scotch’? So touching, so colorful, so colonial, so…so…

    489. Petra says:

      @ Sinky at 8:15am …… “Scottish Tennis.”

      You’ve got to laugh, it’s Scots like Andy Murray that have been pulling in £millions down south and then they hand over 1% of it to the Scots. And adding insult to injury, they’ve got the brass neck to say that England subsidies Scotland whilst we’re being robbed blind between one thing and another.

      …………….

      They wanted us all to listen to them yesterday. Anyone interested in listening to them today?

      http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/brexit-vote-d-day-anniversary-veterans-ww2-eu-europe-a8946046.html

    490. Giving Goose says:

      Joe

      GDP & Retail.

    491. stu mac says:

      @Robert Peffers says:
      5 June, 2019 at 10:15 pm
      @Abulhaq says: 5 June, 2019 at 6:51 pm:

      To add to what you replied there, a very good letter in the National today points out that it’s more likely that the weakening of the Quebec independence movement was down to Quebec getting a lot of, though not complete, independence. That is they got all the stuff that Scotland was promised but didn’t get (including control of immigration). In other words to comp[are Scotland’s situation with Quebec’s is to compare apples to carrots.

    492. Petra @ 10.13pm.

      On your point about Group Captain Stagg, I believe the “part” was played by an English born actor David Haig attempting a Scottish accent. No real Scottish actors available then?



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