There is no opposition
Two opinion polls, just over one Parliamentary term apart:
MAY 2014
JULY 2020
That is not a politically healthy country, readers.
A week is supposedly a long time in politics, but when we asked Scottish respondents in our latest Panelbase poll to look a DECADE ahead, only a quarter of them could even imagine a party other than the SNP forming the Scottish Government by 2030.
And let’s be honest here, that quarter is wildly delusional. We’ve often pointed out that you invariably get 5-10% of people in any poll voting for the most ridiculous option, either for a joke or because they’ve misunderstood the question or because they’re just barking mad, but the 2% who think Scotland will have a Liberal Democrat First Minister any time between now and 2030 probably need professional intervention.
Realistically, the only credible alternative FM is – or rather, it was – a Scottish Labour one. Ruth Davidson took the Tories right up to their plausible ceiling of support (25% to 30%) by throwing lots of red meat to Loyalist bigots and super-Unionists, but that’s not enough to form a government, and in any event she’s gone now and their vote has crumbled back down to the sub-20% level it’s been at for most of the last 40 years.
Since that poll six years ago Scottish Labour have burned through FOUR permanent leaders (plus four different caretakers), each worse than the last – Johann Lamont, Jim Murphy, Kezia Dugdale and Rupert Lanyard [SUB PLEASE CHECK NAME].
And that “worse” isn’t our opinion, it’s a measurable statistic. Lamont’s polling typically sat around 33%, with a peak of 39% around the middle and a freak low of 23% just a few weeks after she took over.
(Don’t ask us why What Scotland Thinks chooses to depict Labour in green now.)
Lamont actually recorded a lead over the SNP on several occasions, the highest being 8 points (39%-31%) in September 2013 and the most recent a narrow one in August 2014. She was the last Scottish Labour leader to ever do so. In over 50 polls during her leadership Labour only dropped below 30% six times.
Jim Murphy’s six-month tenure as leader saw a significant slump. He had a brief peak of 32%, but mostly bumped along around 25%, before hitting an all-time low of 19% just after the 2015 UK election and resigning.
Faced with a party seemingly at rock bottom, Kezia Dugdale got her shovel out and started digging for all she was worth. Peaking at 24% in a single 2015 poll, Dugdale typically sat at 20-21% but in the last poll of her leadership Labour had seen five sub-20% ratings in a row and finally slumped to a spectacular, abyssal 14%.
More significantly, it was Dugdale who saw Scottish Labour lose even the runner-up position, sliding to 3rd place behind the Tories for the entirety of her last year in charge.
Labour got a huge boost simply from Dugdale resigning, even before anyone else took over, leaping 10 points while the leadership contest was still going on. A few days after Roger Leotard took office the party soared to 28% – still 11 behind the SNP but leading some rather over-excitable Labour types into some amusing predictions.
But the two and a half years since then have seen a long slide back to, and below, the Dugdale depths, with the nadir (so far) being a 12% rating in April of this year.
That 12% mirrors the number of optimistic souls who can now see Scottish Labour providing a First Minister (SPOILER: it won’t be Reginald Loinhard) at some point in the next 10 years, down from 40% six years ago.
But the stark reality is that Scotland is now in most meaningful senses and for the foreseeable future a one-party state, and that’s not something to celebrate.
It’s certainly not that we’d be better off with a Tory or Labour administration – both are staffed entirely with incompetent balloons unfit to run a small sandwich shop, let alone a country. But a party which would by that point have governed for 23 years without a meaningful challenge to its dominance is a thoroughly toxic prospect.
The other four parties at Holyrood have a duty to the people of Scotland to improve, and to improve a lot, but it’s highly doubtful that they have the ability to do so. Because in 2020, what sort of idiot with any talent who wanted to make an impact on politics would join Scottish Labour, a party that’s currently FORTY points adrift in the polls, which barely a quarter of its OWN VOTERS believe has any chance of forming a government, and which has no clue what it stands for from one day to the next?
(And the same goes double and triple for the Tories and Lib Dems, obviously. The only reason to join any of the three is to secure yourself a nice cosy MSP gig from which you’re effectively unsackable for life, but also have no hope of ever achieving anything. It’s a scenario which actively encourages the mediocre, the dim and the unambitious.)
Scottish politics urgently needs a new force. The existing opposition is a flotilla of lame, bedraggled, threadbare old ducks needing put out of their hopeless misery but with no merciful vet or predator in sight. The incumbent government is lazy, increasingly sloppy, bloated with entryists/careerists pursuing alien agendas, and riddled with hubris and complacency because it faces no threat whatsoever.
At this point it’s anyone’s guess what that new force might be. But if it doesn’t come along soon, Scotland is going to find itself in a right old mess.
Robert Bruce went through hell playing by ‘their’ rules.
He changed his strategy and became ruthless.
C’mon Alex – timing is crucial, of course, but we need you man.
Don’t be too sure, Ruth Davidson has tweeted:
‘Jackson and team are gearing up for Holyrood 21 and beyond’
Unless she is talking about artwork, you just never know with Carlaw. Gearing is what criminals do, isn’t it?
Where oh where is our savior?!
Never was the need so pressing!
A right old mess not made more comfortable by the presence of dark planet SARS-CoV-2 occupying the same orbit.
Things are already getting tougher for the private citizen, not that the current political class appears to care. However, old ‘democratic’ orders will certainly crack and crumble leaving vacuums which the advocates of world government and its influential, affluent backers will seek to fill with their pre-programmed clones.
Would be curtains for the likes of Scotland and other small/medium nations in such a toxic environment.
We’ve waited long enough. Time is not abundant. The psychological moment has arrived.
Please, no more havering, in both Scots and English senses of the word.
Independent Alliances
Please get going – together – hope is badly needed
Labour have been found out they’re finished in Scotland, the only people who vote for them now are the uber loyal, the terminally stupid and those with a pathological hatred of the SNP, we desperately need another indy supporting party preferably one led by Alex Salmond or at least someone who supports independence unlike Nicola Sturgeon
Finally, a solution. Come on everyone, let’s bemoan the absence of a pro-Union British Nationalist controlled-from-England branch office opposition party! Because people voting for one or more of them is going to show that damned SNP what for. Now THAT’S exactly what we need to secure Scottish Independence…
Yet another ‘benefit’ of union, and all the more alarming given the SNP’s illiberal and anti-democratic approach to the law.
The electorate are quite rightly choosing between an independent Scotland or a unionist Scotland. The unionists are losing the argument as polling confirms. That’s something to celebrate.
Yes Geordie because that’s obviously what he’s implying, that a unionist party must fill the vacuum.
I wrote on the thread:
“The SNP are an unrecognisable shadow of the 2011 Party that lead us into indyRef1.”
I stand by every word.
It’s interesting to think that those who voted No in 2014 because “the SNP will just rule forever and ever” could now be told “happened in Scotland anyway” and that a Yes vote would’ve probably ended that sooner.
Could not agree more! We need another new party in Scotland to ‘hold the SNP’s feet to the fire’ and excite the electorate, get rid of more waste of space British Nationalist Unionist MSPs and show the world we are serious!! Alliance for Independence – Alex at the helm is my vote.
Capella,
If you are going to be the self appointed Cheerleader (Troll) of Nicola Sturgeon on Wings, then expect to be shot at.
Sturgeon is Toxic when it comes to her commitment to Scottish Independence and the very dangerous Bills she is forcing through the Scottish Parliament.
lol
remember this tweet
i doubt aaron will be allowed to forget it
George Galloway is the answer
As usual, Rev, you are depressingly right. And yet many commentators even on the indy side of the debate, seem to view any support for a new pro-indy party as mainly or even solely, a purely tactical vote, leaving a large number of people arguing back and forth over the merits and/or morals of said tactical vote. Which actually boils down to indy supporters trying to persuade other indy supporters that it is somehow wrong to cast such a vote.
Ironically we are only in this ridiculous situation because the unionist opposition parties are so dire as to be unable to win more than a tiny handful of fptp seats.
Brian, you’re asking the wrong question!
The problem is that the SNP contains all shades of political opinion – when I was a member both branch meetings and conference showed this quite clearly. Some in the party were all too well aware that independence would mean the end of the SNP.
I don’t see a way around this at present as any new list party is going to basically be a mirror of the SNP. The SNP is stuck firmly in the centre so from which direction would any opposition come – the purpose of the SNP is independence and the sooner it is back on that track the better.
To get that will require pressure from both inside the party and out but I don’t see how more than one new party is going to be of any help in doing that, if the nonsense of the Woke did not exist Independence would be basically upon us – so why the obsession with a male condition.
Capella
You are an SNP Troll.
On here to spread the toxic Unionist agenda of YOUR hero Nicola Sturgeon.
It is so obvious, that you don’t even try to hide it anymore.
Unashamed desire to promote Sturgeon’s toxic Bills that will seriously put the lives of women and Young girls at risk and her Anti-Independence road to nowhere.
SHAME ON YOU CAPELLA.
Roberto
Pot and kettle. 😉
Would it not be better if Alex Salmond came back as leader of the SNP? That would avoid the complications of potentially splitting the vote with a new party effectively gaming the system and all the risk that entails.
It’s mainly because the majority now support independence.
There are pro union supporters who like the way NS runs devolution.
This has to change, the SNP are a mixture of right to left but its not healthy.
The absolute panic on SM by SNP staffers and politicos is hilarious.
Every day; don’t split the vote, the people of Scotland must decide if they want indy, SNP x2.
You’ll let the unionists in.
There are SNP trolls dissing the ISP, lying about them, questioning where their funding is coming from.
The big disappointment for me was Derek Bateman, calling them the very definition of splitters because they had no policies, except indy.
That was really lazy of him, their web page states their aims clearly
It’s relentless bashing over the head by the usual suspects.
I laugh at Nicolson & SMcD, who’ve blocked half of the SNP supporters, telling us, we must vote SNP x2.
They are terrified, it is pathetic.
@Brian
‘George Galloway is the answer’ only if you are a cat impersonator who supports failing despots.
David Rodgers @ 2:07pm:
From the outside looking in, I admit, but how long do you think that would take? If we are supposed to be trying to avoid the worst of Brexit etc is time not of the essence to get the pressure on>
Further, even if he succeeded, might there not be a split/rupture in the SNP in any case? It seems extremely unlikely (going by what we are led to believe) that there would not be rancour and bitterness in such a case.
I think the electorate are quite satisfied with the current administration in Scotland.
I think this polling shows it.
I’m not for more unionists in our parliament, whatever shade.
I couldn’t give a flying fuck what a bunch of people on the internet think about Scotland successful fight against Toryism thinks either.
Here’s the reality right now, we are where we are and whilst I’m all for a list party to support the SNP’s primary purpose, I’m not for destroying the SNP in the process nor am I of the mentality of repeatedly attacking sturgeon or the snp and all others who support them by shouting down those who do and hold a different view.
And just for the record because of the manner in which this new as in few months old repeated attack on the snp has taken shape on this blog, (yes by all means fight them on various policy issues) the vitriolic, mysoginistic, condescending, seething hatred that has filled these comments toward those who may take a different view, I’m now even more disinclined to vote for any list alternative party that has any connection to wings over Scotland.
Sure, feet to fire, sure, list votes for Indy, sure questioning of policy choices et al.
But the state of this place, the seething personal attacks?
Nah. Get fucked.
Have always believed we needed more than one unconditionally pro independence party.
It has always been portrayed as 3 against 1 with SNP the weirdo blacksheep obsessives.
The three anti Scottish britnat parties against the SNP, with the ambivalent Greens hovering in between.
Another strong Scottish indy party would help normalise the idea of Scottish self governance in the minds of the low information uncommitted voter.
List vote only obviously.
(my bold)
https://www.berghof-foundation.org/fileadmin/redaktion/Publications/Handbook/Articles/dudouet_handbookII.pdf
hear hear k1
an anti snp list party asking snp voters to lend them their list vote??
this isnt going to happen
In a universe of infinite possibilities, George Galloway must be the answer to some question, but what is it?
What a contrast to the ‘Scottish’ Conservative and Unionist Party.
After their unsuccessful opposition to Doris Johnson’s installation as party leader (‘Operation Esra’ – excuse my dyslexia), they all shut up and fell in line.
Irony alert!
Squabbling is so unseemly don’t you think? Much better to sacrifice your principles for the greater good.
Calling Capella a unionist is ridiculous get a grip please.
George Galloway
@georgegalloway · 23h
Dear @scottishlabour I know you hate me. Believe me I hate you back. But this is way bigger than me, bigger even than you. All pro-#Unity forces must unite. Or everybody loses and the match is over. @Alliance4Unity
The one thing the Unionist three could do would be what Murdo Fraser of all people suggested in his losing leadership bid against Ruth Tank Girl Davidison which was that the party make itself independent from the Westminster party.
Doing so would not stop them choosing to caucus with the London based party in Parliament but it would stop them having to parrot every stupid, anti Scottish, anti Democratic union signally statement by the UK leaders/ministers/shadows.
It might also garner them the odd bit of respect. At the moment they are purely and simply charged with being Tractors for Scotland, taking delight in her travails and seeking to do her down at every opportunity. Surely life for them can be better than this.
Meanwhile second vote ISP who will be more gung ho for Indy than the moribund SNP. A Yes opposition at Holyrood urging the SNP to be more radical and get the finger out onto the Indyref button.
‘Labour got a huge boost simply from Dugdale resigning, even before anyone else took over‘. Poor old Kezia, yet so true, she was utterly hopeless and out of her depth, I can’t help but snigger at the description. So schoolgirlish despite her age. Yet, that the same poor, hopeless Kezia should get a sinecure within a think tank and part of the establishment and able to help influence policy in future is no laughing matter.
S.Cat:
“an anti snp list party asking snp voters to lend them their list vote??”
There’s no way of knowing how this pans out presently, but we need to differentiate between “SNP voters” and “people voting SNP to get indy”, as they are not necessarily the same thing. It might sound counter-intuitive because the SNP and indy are so closely linked but that does rely on people still equating them closely with the pursuit of indy AND giving them it when they want it. There are probably, broadly speaking, though three groups of people currently voting SNP:
Some people who’d vote No – still – vote SNP as they think they do a good job.
Some vote SNP to get indy and might not if they think they are not going to get it.
Some are partisans and will vote SNP regardless/are happy with the pace of indy pursuit.
I am not sure what the relative percentages are, only that I think it likely that the people who’d vote No still are probably the smallest group. There’s probably a lot of crossover between the other two groups though.
All these people are entitled to vote for whatever they want without being harangued by others for their choices, called names, or whatever. They arrive at the vote for their reasons and no-one else’s.
But what’s also the case is that none of them are just “the SNP’s voters” in that sense of possession, any more than Labour voters who have gone were theirs….because some of the Labour voters found that they wanted Indy and Labour were not ever going to give them it, so went bye-bye.
What a brilliantly excoriating piece of critical political commentary. You have more wit and perception in your wee pinkie that then whole host of ‘scots’ britnat hacks combined.
I burst out laughing several times reading this article.
But now I am depressed because your fears for the future are more than valid.
As that auld King who sat boozin El Dorado in Dunfermline cried:
“Ach. Whaur will ah get a skeely skipper,
Tae sail this ship o’ mine?”
Clive of India
Rhodes of Africa
Raffles of Singapore
Sturgeon of Scotland
Great British Imperials.
@Polly
I have anecdotal evidence from more than one (two actually) trusted source that John Smith – he of the eponymous ‘think tank’ was not well-regarded as a constituency MP.
But that’s Labour all over – high on rhetoric – low on performance.
‘Words to live by’ for the hapless Dugdale.
@ K1 – spot on – I too have been thinking lately that I might not vote for an alternative list party after all. I was going to vote for the ISP – probably. But the vitriol is putting me off any deviation from supporting the one party openly advocating independence for Scotland.
@ Jill Sharpe 🙂 – I am a unionist and an SNP Troll at the same time. Brilliant disguise don’t you think. I think Roberta is just a reincarnation of Oscar. Different name – same MO.
Capella:
“But the vitriol is putting me off any deviation from supporting the one party openly advocating independence for Scotland.”
Makes no difference to your reasoning on your vote, I should state, but I think we can agree that should the ISP be standing they would be “openly advocating independence for Scotland”? 🙂
People must vote as they wish but Catalonia manages to have more than one pro-indy party and one’s got to be the big fish. Here that’ll be the SNP but the judge of whether there’s room for other parties advocating the same will be in the voting.
Will confess I do not know what Catalonian forums are like though and whether there is loads of rancour between the voters of the various pro-Indy parties there!!
I really think Nicola has been got at by the British State. What has changed since early 2017 when she said Independence referendum in the autumn of 2018 or early 2019. I know she lost MPs in the June 17 election but she won most of them back in Dec 19. So what has changed why does she have a completely view now?
@johnny
the snp were always going to say vote snp1/2. the unionist parties do the same (not counting clueless dugdale) It stops them falling foul of the electoral commission. that doesnt stop all parties campaigning under the wire for people to vote tactically and the unionist voters are more than capable of understanding this. so can we
Im snp. i have been the biggest proponent for tactical voting on this site for years.
but voters who voted snp in 2016 were unwilling to vote rise or solidarity at all and the greens in sufficient numbers on the list
the success of a new indy list party has nothing to do with which policies it pursues. it is a question of trust. something which has fallen dramatically for the greens. they are facing an extinction event in the next he regardless of what happens.
celebrity endorsement, eg salmond, will be what determines which list party gets the nod from people who vote snp. not policies.
bear in mind, voters who vote snp on the list will never 100% switch to this new party.
indeed, i was surprised by stus poll which showed ~50%. but with momentum that figure could rise to 75% on the day.
an outwardly anti snp new indy list party will die the death, same as rise did.
@K1
I agree with you, well said. I’m all for an Indy supporting list party but the fact is that most of those that support independence also support the SNP.
Any new party that is attacking the SNP and their supporters is unlikely to encourage SNP supporters to vote for them.
The personal attacks on Cappella on this blog are a good example of that.
@ Ian Brotherhood
‘Small Acts of Resistance’ by Steve Crawshaw and John Jackson might interest you. It’s on Kindle.
Denise says:
I really think Nicola has been got at by the British State.
———
aye, i hear they unionists have wired up her testicles to the national gride
———————————
What has changed since early 2017 when she said Independence referendum in the autumn of 2018 or early 2019. I know she lost MPs in the June 17 election but she won most of them back in Dec 19. So what has changed why does she have a completely view now?
———————-
that’ll be the corona virus. waken up at the back there!
The voting system in Catalonia allows for more than one independence party – only the council elections would allow for it here.
The ISP should aim to increase the overall vote for independence, appealing to those the SNP cannot reach.
Capella says:
I am a unionist and an SNP Troll at the same time.
——————–
splitter 🙂
I get very suspicious of people who accuse others of attacking when what they mean is disagreeing.
It’s something the woke crew do all the time.
BTW the Rev always pulls commentators up for abusing others,
I prefer to leave it to his good judgement
From the article
“The incumbent government is lazy, increasingly sloppy, bloated with entryists/careerists pursuing alien agendas, and riddled with hubris and complacency because it faces no threat whatsoever.”
To which I would add;
‘..and it is now the biggest obstacle to Scottish independence.’
O/T – Re the food standards fight that is upcoming.
I want to see if I understand the ramifications of what is proposed and see what others think.
As I understand it, Westminster is now saying ‘we will let the devolved administrations set their own standards, but in any case they MUST accept whatever food we send them because free trade must flow blah blah”.
My queries for consideration then:
i) Is my reading of it above correct?
ii) If so, would this not really mean that the “power to set their own standards” is meaningless as they would be breached day and faily?
iii) Might not the Tories actually want us to agree that we should set our own standards so they can flood us full of cheap shite and undermine our farmers’ better quality stuff, decimating the food industry here?
iv) Would they then attempt to say they are doing us a big favour because “look at all the food we export to you” (and never mind that it’s billed as a “single market”, that’ll be forgotten when there’s points to score) and “how reliant you Scots are on food imports from us”?
v) What would the implications of this for any indyref 2? Would we be facing an argument of “you need us as you can’t feed yourselves and we won’t trade with you if you go indy!” type threats?
Think they need to be told to get knotted and forcefully.
Capella 1.43
What polling?
In six years we are up two points and you seriously think that Sturgeon is going to deliver independence?
She is the Unionists best friend as are those who support her.
@johnny
you need us as you can’t feed yourselves and we won’t trade with you if you go indy!
—————–
possibly, but england exports nothing unique to anyone. eg, modern quality control ensures that a BMW, heinz ketchup, coca cola etc are exactly the same no matter where they are made. the same is true for english only products being replaced by similar products, eg devon for irish clotted cream.
once the eu tarrif wall goes up along the border, companies like tesco will simply source the same or similar goods from elsewhere in the eu, eg ireland. 20% cheaper. folk in an indy scotland in the cu/sm wouldnt even notice the difference
england would tank though
McDuff says:
In six years we are up two points
—————-
in last two polls, indy is up at 54% thats 9% higher than in 2014
S.Cat:
I get this, but what I really mean is that they (WM) seem to be angling for:
i) set your own food standards but not really lol;
ii) You need to accept whatever we send;
iii) they may then take in things that can’t be sent directly because we have certain food standards, and then send them north, and claim it as their own export – something for which I think they have form?
Sue Varley says:
‘Ironically we are only in this ridiculous situation because the unionist opposition parties are so dire as to be unable to win more than a tiny handful of fptp seats.’
I agree of course but it’s also because we on this side want to ensure support for independence doesn’t flag. Had we been independent and SNP as some form of party still in power and ruling as they have been I for one would have stopped voting for them a while ago. But how long that situation will be able to continue is the question. Having left EU make or break time is coming along the road pretty fast.
@ Oneliner,
I must confess I knew little about Smith though I remember watching his funeral on tv and seeing the outpouring of grief. Knew nothing of Blair then either but remember being delighted when tories were wiped out up here with his big election win. I remember hoping for a better future but I never particularly liked him, he seemed slippery, but the Iraq decision showed he was worse than I thought. Voting for SNP since and had high hopes which for a long while were not misplaced, but my high hopes have been dashed quite a few times in the last few years and I’d argue the ‘high on rhetoric – low on performance’ now equally applies to them. Their rhetoric vs their performance about keeping us in EU and promises given to EU citizens proves that. They have a few months at most to pull a rabbit from the hat. I’m not hopeful.
@johnny
i disagree with nothing in your post, as i said yesterday
we now have an english national party in power at wm who are now quite openly trying to undermine scotlands economy.
promising barnett consequentials, which are then lauded by carlaw, then not even bothering to transfer the funds.
there can never be a covid economic recovery for scotland, it isnt in wm’s interests to allow that to happen
either way, it should be evident to all that the devolution experiment is now over.
the status quo is no longer an option.
the only way that scotland can recover economically from covid, is by independence
An excellent piece by barrhead boy.
The days of gradualism and taking things slowly towards an indy Scotland are now over. De pfeffle johnson and his murderous Tory cabal, have made it really clear, they intend taking a wrecking ball to devolution. This is not a secret. Soon, we will have no Scots parliament left.
The SNP/Scotgov/NS really do need to wake the f*** up, and start to fight. Waiting until 2021, it will be woefully too late. The SNP, under their current strategy, might just be remembered in the history books as the party that stood back and twiddled its thumbs, mumbling about ‘mandates’, as Scotand’s constitutional rights, parliament and identity were finally and forever stolen by the English government.
https://www.barrheadboy.com/fight-or-flee/
@Ron Maclean (2.56) –
Cheers, will have a swatch.
😉
Polly
it isnt the snp you should be bemoaning, its the scottish voters
its they who have put us in this shit, but i believe it is they who will get us out of this shit
K1 @ 14:14
Nobody is keeping you here.
Particularly when you are mud slinging like a spoiled wee brat with daddy issues.
Ooh – cutting. Another example of a vitriolic personal attack. Try playing the ball and not the man, or woman, sometime.
Ron Maclean says:
14 July, 2020 at 2:56 pm
@ Ian Brotherhood
‘Small Acts of Resistance’ by Steve Crawshaw and John Jackson
I think ill have a look at this too. i hope it doesnt come to it but best to be prepared
Johann Lamont only polled high despite being as thick as an uneaten bag of cold chips because she was fundamentally sincere; dimmer than a fake light bulb made in China but definitely sincere.
Murphy on the other hand was a cocky, wee prick and voters aren’t fundamentally stupid, so his overinflated opinion of himself did Labour’s North British branch office supervisor, no favours.
It came as no surprise then, that voters looked the other way even after he was severely injured walking into a sheet of cardboard then tragically, fatally injured after his shirt collar was brutally struck by a chicken’s egg.
It’s hard to pin down exactly why Dizzy Dugdale sunk labour into the political abyss. Maybe it was her whiny voice but probably because her position changed more times than a kinky housewife on Porn Hub.
So it was up to Reginald Leopard to clean up the crime scene & reinvigorate the corpse. But not even Frankenstein could stimulate life back into this rotting party political carcass.
Our best hope then, is the failed used car salesman from Glasgow, Jackson Carlaw, a guy so keen to be meaningful, his gammon head appears to be on the cusp of exploding each time he’s invited by his pro union chums on the BBC to exploit a perceived weakness in the Scottish government.
But the Tories will always struggle with a leader who couldn’t be trusted to sell a car properly, never mind hold onto high office & suddenly come across as all diplomatic.
After all, when did anyone drive off the forecourt in a second hand banger, thinking that the guy who just sold them a lemon would make a great negotiating ambassador at the next round of UN anti nuclear proliferation treaties?
No, the logical answer is a new, pro independence party to steal Sturgeon’s fake thunder & put the constitutional question back to the electorate.
Once Scotland is independent, the electorate can elect as many glaikit idiots from Labour and the Tories as they like. At least then, they won’t be able to blame Westminster for the fuck ups & phoney promises.
“I’m not for more unionists in our parliament, whatever shade.”
Exactly who did you imagine was calling for more Unionists?
Sympathy for the unionist parties ? Have a word.
when did anyone drive off the forecourt in a second hand banger, thinking that the guy who just sold them a lemon would make a great negotiating ambassador at the next round of UN anti nuclear proliferation treaties?
lol
Five pubs in the town. Most people start going to one because they prefer it. I can only put it down to four of them not giving the customers what they want.
Perhaps the thought of a jovial Carlaw as landlord or Jacklie Baillie as barmaid did it.
The most probable cause though is the Union Flags fluttering outside and replays of 1966 on the screen inside with R,W and B bunting everywhere.
Hey Cat 🙂 again I’m on the other side from you
No, and a resounding no! We the voters put the SNP in power time and again after 2014 – since I assume you mean Scots voters voting no put us in this predicament. But since then we who vote SNP have put them in power with mandates galore. The only reason many vote for them is to get us independence. I’m bemoaning the fact they’ve done nothing since. They are not the party they were, they’re a pathetic excuse for an independence supporting party now compared to pre 2014. That is not the yes movements fault, or voters fault or most members fault, it lies with leadership. Lack of leadership.
The two things I do agree with you on, only two I think, is crunch time is fast approaching and we have to get it over the line by ourselves.
If Scotland isn’t careful, it will be fitted-up to slip seamlessly into a state of authoritarian totalitarianism. The ultimate ‘benefit’ of union.
Full text.
https://journals.sagepub.com/doi/pdf/10.1177/0263276416674538
Polly says:
we who vote SNP have put them in power with mandates galore
mandates for indyref 2, not for independence. however, we are now on the cusp of gaining exactly that
I really do hope Alex Salmond/Craig Murray and perhaps wings get together, Scotland is in dyer need of a radical alternative, this present SNP are no more than New SNP and it’s been copied straight from Blairs soundbite handbook
hi alex
have you decided to stand for election on the list?
@ianbh
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QrEbE8XkI88
quite uplifting
‘The incumbent government is lazy, increasingly sloppy, bloated with entryists/careerists …’
On today’s talkingupscotlandtwo.com ‘There is no evidence for a second peak in Scotland’ commenter ‘Clydebuilt’ posted that Sir Malcolm Rifkind, speaking on GMS about 0750, said “You don’t need a Scottish Government”.
Article 1 of the ‘Montevideo Convention on the Rights and Duties of States’ (not ratified by the UK) –
‘The state as a person of international law should possess the following qualifications:
a. a permanent population;
b a defined territory;
c government; and
d capacity to enter into relations with the other states.’
Scotland is not a state but has a, b and c above. Losing our government might make statehood even more difficult to restore.
Your rhetoric…one party state…perilous state of affairs in Scotland, that’s exactly the unionist position from several years ago, with their no surrender, if ye can’t vote labour vote Tory plpyy to keep the reduce SNP majority’s in scot parliament and Westminster.
You are full on against ‘sturgeon’ and SNP, fine… I’ll ask again who else are we to vote for on Scotland?
Idiotdick…only response you will ever receive from me. Grow up you silly little prick.
@ McDuff 3.06 – you asked me about polling. SC has posted the figures for independence. But perhaps you missed this George Kerevan article I posted yesterday on the astonishing surge in the polls for the SNP:
His main point though is that the independence movement is split just at this moment when success is finally coming into view. He offers two reasons for the split:
http://archive.fo/FMt8o#selection-1469.3-1469.417
Cat,
‘however, we are now on the cusp of gaining exactly that’.
Are we? I’ve yet to see how that is likely to be fought for, or any inkling of the spirit needed to fight for it be shown. Talk of talking Westminster to court is all very well as far as food standards go, but it doesn’t challenge brexit being forced on us or what might happen after.
And, if we are on the cusp, it is not down to anything constructive the leadership of the party has done. Yes you say she’s waiting to see the white of their eyes. As others have no doubt pointed out before it’s more to do with a hard cold brexit, Boris in charge of that and covid19 and his disaster there. I know a unionist relative of mine is castigating him for that any chance she can get and praising Sturgeon’s performance. Yes, surprised me she praised her – I think because, as G H Graham said above about Johann, her sincerity showed through. People like sincerity, even if they disagree with policies. However, lots of folk who have been paying more attention than my relative in the last few years no longer believe Sturgeon’s sincerity is as sincere as it seems on the surface. Even the covid briefings have another reason for taking place than public announcements. My relative still won’t vote yes, despite her new found appreciation for the handling of the crisis and if crunch time comes and goes and only rhetoric is still the order of the day, though I will still vote yes, I won’t be voting SNP to get us there.
Oh and if crunch time does come and go, as so many other opportunities have already, and your desire for making the 21 H E a plebiscite doesn’t materialise from the party even if they get a resounding majority, will you come back here and grovel to the rest of us? With your arrogance usually on show I think a lot of us would pay good money to see that.
I first came across Wings when we put out the Wee Blue Book in 2014. Cannot say I enjoy looking at it now. Most people will skip over the long critical reactions.
I think most of the correspondents are trolls. We are nearer Independence now than at any time in my SNP membership – 54 years so far.
The shape of the new Scotland will be decided by the people after Independence.
Well said Jim Lynch.
The SNP is sitting in position whereby it can win a bigger mandate than it achieved in 2011. If people want to increase that the only way to do it is to vote Green on the list but only if they don’t put up candidates in constituencies as that could lose the SNP seats such as Edinburgh Central where their intervention only managed to boost Ruth Davidson’s profile.
A vote for any other pro Indy Party is a massive gamble and runs the risk of stopping a pro Indy majority after 2021 election as no one knows with any certainty how folk in any constituency will cast their vote.
The only high profile non SNP figure almost guaranteed a seat is Alex Salmond but he is now a very marmite figure even to many former supporters. That is ONLY ONE SEAT.
As Dougie Daniel says, “in 2016, Highlands and Islands voters had a choice of FOUR pro-indy parties on the list, including two whose top candidates were sitting MSPs (Greens and RISE – both elected, ironically, as SNP list MSPs in 2011). The result was TWO pro-indy MSPs – one for the SNP and one for the Greens.
Splitting the pro-indy vote doesn’t actually elect more pro-indy MSPs, and leaves you crossing your fingers that the pro-union vote is even more split. An SNP majority is the only route to another referendum. Don’t leave it to chance based on fantasy arithmetic.”
Also worth reading SCOT GOES POP “WHY TACTICAL VOTING ON THE REGIONAL LIST DOESN’T WORK”
http://scotgoespop.blogspot.co.uk/2015/06/why-adam-ramsay-is-wrong-to-claim-that.html
Those who say that the SNP is not committed to achieving Independence are living in cloud cuckoo land and beware of those who wish to divide the independence movement when we are on the cusp of success.
Divided movements don’t win elections or referenda so don’t give encouragement to the Brit Nats.
You can guarantee there are many anonymous unionists in this site and on social media stirring things up by encouraging division.
Jim Lynch: while the polls are definitely looking good and so in that sense we are ‘nearer’ to indy being what the majority wants (a positive thing if you’re of a Yes persuasion and, indeed, already a majority!), how are we nearer in terms of making it a reality if we don’t have a mechanism to ‘make it so’?
That’s what most of the wrangling is about. People cannot see any sign that there is clarity on the mechanism to be used to cash in when the majority wants it.
If we aren’t able to cash in, then we are not near indy at all.
People are entitled to wonder (and worry) about our ability to cash in if we are wedded to the idea of seeking Boris’ approval for everything. They want to know that we won’t just act like captives and behave helplessly.
Surely a Yes supporter can understand that another Yes supporter might be worried of this, and wish for urgency, even if they think we will ‘cash in our opportunity’ just fine?
One thing I have heard said about 2014 (and I think it was true) was that we were debating what sort of country we wanted to be. Now it seems something as minimalist as a discussion on the mechanism by which it should be achieved, as well as criticism of the one put forward by the government of the day, is now allowed or causes uproar.
A retrograde sort of step for a place that was priding itself on a political awakening with people discussing all sorts of issues, I would think.
Polly
the reason im on here promoting the idea of an indy plebiscite is to convince folk of its merits, that includes nicola sturgeon and the wider snp.
if she refuses, how am i responsable?
is it nicola or boris who is responsable for the increase support? who knows? who cares? its there
if we are still polling 55% nearer the election, i dont think she will reject the idea, going for another indref2 mandate seems pointless as bojo will simply say no to a s30 again
what happens if boris still says no? see my discussion with ian brotherhood
Time for some epistemology? Remember, constitutional law is part of science.
Brexit means British constitutionalism now inescapably articulates legal pseudo-science. Subsequently, British constitutional law can no longer be trusted by those living in Scotland, so standing under it hurts the rule-of-law.
Unless the SNP changes its’ approach to the law, it would appear the entire British legal order now fully supports eugenics.
https://helda.helsinki.fi/bitstream/handle/10138/19556/certaint.pdf?sequence=2
@Robert Louis, 3.24pm
De pfeffle johnson and his murderous Tory cabal, have made it really clear, they intend taking a wrecking ball to devolution. This is not a secret. Soon, we will have no Scots parliament left.
It has always been clear that that was the long-term aim. It was built into Brexit. To list some evidence, the increasing top slice of the Scottish grant being given to the redundant Scottish Office, now called the UK Government in Scotland, the refurbishment of offices for the UK civil servants even though the civil servants serving the Scottish Government were still in place, the delay in the approval of the Scottish Parliament’s Act re the returning EU powers to give Westminster time to rush through legislation making the Scottish Parliament’s Act ultra vires.
The UK state needs Scotland’s resources. Devolved power in the hands of a different political party is an obstruction which needs to be removed. The UK government pulling the trick regarding the returning powers should have been a tocsin for the SNP/Scottish Government.
Very limited choice in the available political parties to vote for really, least appealing will be the gallus George I expect.
Even the unionist parties will have detractors and go with the SNP for ‘generally good governance’ and the extra ‘freebies’ their big brother parties darn Sarf don’t do, it has always been thus.
But they, in the main, they will still vote against the idea of independence.
Bring on the ‘List’ party for independence because it could be fertile soil for such a party turning ineffective list votes for the ‘SNP’ from lead into gold.
I’m all in favour of fewer unionist MSP bench warmers in Holyrood
But presentation is the thing, not outright hostility to the SNP or vica versa, but an understanding, a tacit unspoken acknowledgement on both sides that the sails must be set in the right direction.
I mean what can possibly go wrong? Two votes 🙂
SNP….1
LIST party….1
I mean it’s inevitable that the stand off must end the FM may not say the famous words to Boris as in that 1953 cowboy film but
it will happen.
“You lowdown Union liar” 🙂
As my chess program oft says when I make a rare good move
“That was strong”….well in 1953 it was.
Rupert Lanyard[sub please check name]
Rev. that’s your best joke yet, sums the wee nyaff up.
Interesting opinion poll result up on Facebook, it seems 51% of the English now think they should be independent.
What happens when the Tories have to tell them: well, actually, if you are cut loose from the Scots, you cannot survive?
@Robert Louis, 3.24
I posted my comment before I read that great article by Barrhead Boy. It raised my spirits and puts me in mind of the Scottish shout on the second day of Bannockburn “On them! On them! They fail!”
Thanks for the link
Jim Lynch @ 4-40 pm
Well said Jim.Your experience is an almost carbon-copy of mine.The vitriolic exchanges I witness here (oh yes!…I lurk and I read) sicken me.
I no longer post on this site (until today when your post compelled me to).
Cat,
‘going for another indref2 mandate seems pointless as bojo will simply say no to a s30 again’
Good news we agree on three things now. You won’t be responsible if she refuses to go for a plebiscite, but you will be responsible for haranguing me and other folk here who have doubts she will, though with that answer you’ve just given seems to me you have a little doubt yourself which may be why your voice has sounded at times so argumentative on this question.
I don’t think anyone here will need much convincing on the merits of an Indy plebiscite, most of us are gagging for something like that. I would doubt Sturgeon reads this site, she probably feels, like a lot of the people she has surrounded herself with, that Wings and his brand of supporters are toxic or at least embarrassing and wouldn’t touch it with a barge pole. I on the other hand went from liking the squeaky clean method to being willing to fight for independence with any and all means possible. The rank stench of hypocrisy from the folk calling for Stuart to be avoided brought me here and I’m firmly in this camp from now on. You always promoted a second list only party, I’ve only come round to that because of the SNP’s position on issues we’ve already discussed.
We’ve argued before and no doubt will again, but I hope you’re right about the party doing something before or certainly immediately after the H E if they win it. If they don’t do something then we’ll have to commiserate with each other here, and then regroup and fight on without SNP.
schrodingers cat says: at 4:49 pm
“is it nicola or boris who is responsable for the increase support? who knows? who cares? its there”
Eh, anybody who wants to increase pro-indy support further should bloody well care!
If we want to set a good example of how a future Scotland would be better served by having our own fully empowered government, then they should be the ones initiating positive policies for our society to build that support, and not relying on the continued bumbling idiocy and failures of those in that archaic shithouse on the Thames.
Solely relying on manufacturing grievance with our adversary’s bad policies being imposed on us only gets us so far in campaigning strategy, and especially so when our own Scottish
GovernmentAdministration is now straying into that exact territory…I posted a response to Julia Gibb a few posts ago which she didn’t even respond too , I will ask the same question to all the SNP diehards on here and elsewhere , if us non members are disatisfied with the pedestrian actions of NS in relation to independence and her reviled GRA AND HCB will the supposed 125,000 members (new figures unavailable)WIN the next HR election on their own
As has been stated many many times WE ARE ALL IN THIS TOGETHER , my main priority is independence not PARTY if you
125,000 members cannot or will not convince or FORCE NS to ditch the reviled bills and force a LEGAL challenge to WM over our sovereignty how are we non members supposed to be convinced that the SNP is the PARTY to LEND our votes too to gain independence
@Brian says:
14 July, 2020 at 1:55 pm
“George Galloway is the answer”
Fuck me are things really that bad? 🙂
@Capella says:
14 July, 2020 at 3:38 pm
“Try playing the ball and not the man, or woman, sometime.”
Tsk tsk, where’s the inclusion? You forgot transexual, pansexual, gender neutral, non-binary, agender, pangender, two spirt, third gender (ain’t Google wonderful).
And are you sure that the ball does identify as such? Maybe it think’s it is a bat…
Pass the medication…
Corona: Official.
Scotland……..today……00…….Total……2490…BBC
Wales………..today……02…….Total……1543…BBC
N. Ireland……today……00…….Total…….556…BBC
England………today…..*29…….Total….*29103…SUN
=========================================================
UK…………..today…..138…….Total…..44968…WM Gov
BBC don’t do numbers for England only. They gave that up 2-months ago but they’re quite happy to do the colonies every day and every other country in the world down to the last gasp!
Funny old world. Init!
I can see Ruth Davidson returning and rallying the Yoons.
getting them to do what Yoons do best, unite under one core tenet.
In this case an indivisible Union between Scotland and England.
All under one Banner, so long as its the Jack.
Socrates MacSporran at 5:24
You wrote: “ What happens when the Tories have to tell them: well, actually, if you are cut loose from the Scots, you cannot survive?”
Ah! You demonstrate your lack of understanding of the innate entrepreneurial spirit and patriotic verve of the English. Together with our stoicism and zeal we will try to make the best of any circumstances that are bestowed upon us to survive and prosper.
If what was mentioned was true (over 50% of English folk think we should have Independence) then it just goes to show how we honour our agreements and don’t make a fuss, even when we are paying through the nose as a result of such agreements. It’s all about honour and fidelity you know.
@ callmedave – BBC have published the Scottish figures on the website and it’s looking good:
Just two patients in the whole of Scotland are in intensive care with coronavrius and only three new positive cases have been reported n the last 24 hours. For the sixth day in a row there have been no new deaths associated with Covid-19.
Looks like the virus is under control. Hope it stays that way. Well done everybody.
Unionists were in charge up here for over 300 years in all guises,
Power
Religion
Law
Health
If SNP or similar parties pro Scotland reign for the next 300 years, “suits me sir”
“Well we didn’t get dressed up for nothing”, as big man said.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oL5h-ViCbR0
Get your wonk klaxons ready. 🙂
Political participation provides access to resources and the potential for justice, and is grounded on equal recognition. British constitutionalism is blind to Scottish history, culture, morality, and public consciousness, and is intent on excluding the Scottish identity from British constitutional practice.
Political action requires cognition and implies AGENCY. Get it sorted.
The End of Action: An
Arendtian Critique of Aristotle’s
Concept of praxis
https://helda.helsinki.fi/bitstream/handle/10138/25817/008_04_Backman.pdf?sequence=1
@Capella
So far so good Capella. 🙂
Be a few tears yet though, to early to celebrate as the pubs open up.
But darn Sarf they are on a knife edge, cases too high and a plateau reached and no decrease as expected.
Boris has to roll the dice and play the ‘face covering’ card, so he’s not a popular fellow, with many cutting up their Tory membership cards on twitter.
Ooops! Mixed metaphors….better together though.
@SC (4.03) –
Thanks for that link.
I’ve never seen the man before and had never heard of his book but he seems an interesting character with some powerful thoughts.
What I most like about these ‘thinkers’ is that they consistently refer to ‘the individual’ taking responsibility for themselves and their communities (even if that ‘community’ is an abstraction, like, say ‘the scientific community’). Yes, it can get a bit ‘hippyish’ at times, but the core of what they’re on about reflects some basic need in people, and we see it right here in the ‘indy’ debate.
This post is yet another to emerge from WOS recently which deserves to be spread and discussed widely, but it won’t be because of the horrible atmosphere at the moment – in the doldrums, directionless, anxious, sick to death of ‘the bug’ etc. Perhaps that has contributed to the rise in calls for someone to ‘lead us’ out of this. Someone to show direction, give us hope.
It’s easy to see how fascism gets a gold in such febrile circumstances. We know that Scotland is not a happy place for fascists but that basic urge for strong leadership is still there and the FM, for many of us, just doesn’t have that x-factor. Even Nicola’s staunchest supporters have to accept that she has been damaged by inaction over Brexit. Yes, the polls show her riding high but that’s a reflection of the stats in the lead comment – there’s simply no competition, and her managerial skills have skewed the results. Amongst indy/Yes supporters she’s never been more marmiteish.
That’s why I keep banging on about civil disobedience and non-violent revolution etc – it feels as if we’re getting closer and closer to the point where the lack of a functioning opposition is going to force action from the citizenry. And that’s when the ‘individual responsibility’ comes in, big-time. I’m honestly not sure how many of us really are prepared to do what it takes.
Has anyone else worked out what is going on with Nicola? I have,she has given up! Independence is too hard for her.
The sooner we all realise this the better.We have a captain in charge of a ship heading for a massive iceberg. Instead of changing course she heads straight for it. Then she can blame the iceberg for the catastrophe.
Covid-19 is the perfect excuse for not diverting the ship. We need a mutiny. She needs to go.
WTF
Listen to this absolute tool, Dan Wootton. If that doesn’t convert some no’s to YES, then? The snobby posh voice got me shouting at a fecking radio alone,far more so what crap he was spouting, Jesus.
This should be played far and wide.
https://twitter.com/GrayInGlasgow/status/1283073988386791425
A lot of anger from the sturgeonites. (K1 is away greetin tae mammy)
It’s hilarious because that’ll be the cognitive dissonance kicking in. She could come out with a union flag wrapped around her singing god save the queen and they would still line up to say it was all just a bad fancy dress gag.
The SNP leadership is the problem, not the Party as a whole, NS and her cronies need to go before they fuck the whole thing up anymore than they already have.
Scotlands Independence is too important, too big for a small clique of delusional politicians. I’m all for ‘good job Nicola, but you’ve taken us as far as you possibly can, now please move aside’ (and take your fucking woke loonball buddies with you).
I hope folk are able to distinguish between hostile attacks and constrictive criticism?
https://scielo.conicyt.cl/scielo.php?script=sci_arttext&pid=S0718-090X2006000200008
It’s ironic that at a time when Sturgeon is winning over her former detractors i.e Joe Public. That she is now losing all support from the people who should be supporting her.
That’s the duplicity of the woman. She is courting the public and shunning the people who elected her.
It’s why people need to wake up and judge her by her actions. Not what by her PR statements. In her actions, or in her case inaction. She gives the game away.
She has had more chances than Harold Bratpak, and missed more.
The 2021 Holyrood election will be a five year term not the usual four year.
Voters: there’s the Jam the morra type and the seeing is believing type.
The Jam the morra voter goes by what the politicians say they believe in and what they promise they will do: We promise you Jam the morra. We’re pro-independence.
The evidential type: They judge not by words but by deeds. Salmond’s SNP promised an indyref and delivered an indyref.
I judge Sturgeon’s SNP on what they have delivered, on matters that’s important to me.
They promised Scotland would not be dragged out of the EU.
They promised indyref2.
They promised big and failed to deliver. They broke their mandates with their electorate.
a poll by business for scotland found support for english independence
yes 49%
no 51%
The poll revealed 52.5% of Conservative voters in England support independence for the country. Recent polling shows Scottish Tory supporters disagree with breaking up the Union by 94%.
There were similar figures for Labour – south of the Border, 51.5% of voters support England becoming independent. This figure was more in line with the numbers in Scotland, where a Business for Scotland poll recently found 43% of Labour voters would support breaking up the Union.
Commenting on differences between the parties, MacIntyre-Kemp said: “I think it might come as quite a shock to Scottish Conservatives that their party members across the Border are just not that bothered about keeping the Union together.
“But the evidence is clear, in England the majority of voters for the two main political parties support English independence and therefore the dissolution of the Union.”
The poll surveyed 1015 English residents between June 29 and July 3.
Beware: politics is a heady-brew and highly addictive. If you have difficulties with the effects, in particular the “disagreeable” positions, as you see them, of fellow politicos, your safest bet is to get out, and fast. There’s no other way to avoid inevitable burn-out. Shed all positions, and walk.
when is it realistically possible to hold a holyrood election?
i see auob on twitter saying their next march will be after phase 4 is over ???
Big Jock says:
She is courting the public and shunning the people who elected her.
—————-
her job is to appeal to the largest % of people. and she is winning. if that means pissing of a few folk on wings, i doubt she’ll lose much sleep over it
getting some info about the Alliance for Independence party.
it appears to be an umbrella group for all indy list parties to stand under.
seems like a good idea to maximise the transfer of votes and win more seats
i dont know anything more
Thomson:
“The purpose is to maximise pro-indy votes: A Regional List vote for the SNP achieves *nothing*.
“AFI would allow smaller pro-independence parties, Yes groups, and individuals to unite under one banner, while supporting SNP. We hope for between 8 and 24 MSPs.”
@ SC – I read that too about the Alliance Party. I wonder how that would would work. Would the electoral commission allow an umbrella group to register?
@capella
i cant see why not, as long as they have a constitution and people agree to abide by it, i cant see why this would be disallowed by the EC
If we allow ourselves to be removed from the EU by authoritarian English nationalism, there is no guarantee of Scotland’s voice ever being heard again.
What is it that we ‘do’, when we perform an action?
https://sites.google.com/site/praxisandtechne/Home/architecture/performativity/poiesis-and-praxis
Whenever some arsehole says ‘we are where we are’ always remember it was arseholes who brought us to where we are.
O.K., we are already removed. We are still within the EU’s jurisdiction until the end of the year though.
CBB
You stupidly wrote “ If we allow ourselves to be removed from the EU by authoritarian English nationalism…. “.
Did you mean … ordinary folk in Scotland, England, Wales and NI using their single vote in a free and fair referendum to express their view, by a majority, on whether they wish to be a member of the EU (Or not, …. like over 150 other countries in the world that are not members of the EU)?
…. still pushing the “English = Bad“ trope I see.
Nah NO NEW FORCE needed in Scottish politics.
SNP have taken us to 54% or more of the total vote which is a lot
Remember half a million brits from outwith Scotland will always vote NO they account for a quarter of the NO vote ( 18% of the total votes ) so by that measure even if everyone else in Scotland votes YES we can only get a maximum of 82%
54% is about two thirds of the 82% the third who agree not with us are Scottish tories and Old labour
54% is two thirds of the maximum we could ever hope for
That britnat 18% will always vote for mother England
SNP shills on overtime.
You should stare reality in the face .
SNP shills come on here to complain that not enough people agree with their cockeyed devotion to ‘Nicola’ .??????
I’m not hostile to the SNP, they are the most powerful vehicle moving us in the direction of indy, so I want to help them to do the job. I’m afraid our leaders just don’t have the correct sort of insight though, to get us out the poke. Apparently.
Philosophy in Review Vol. 40 no. 1 (February 2020)
Phenomenology of Plurality: Hannah Arendt on Political Intersubjectivity.
https://journals.uvic.ca/index.php/pir/article/view/19132/8517
Dave, you’re not worthy of considerate reply, so just get tae.
‘A bad fancy dress gag’ or part of the Great Leaders cunning strategy?
Grosser FeldFrau aller zeiten.
Schrödinger’s cat and Capella having a committee there. We’ll just leave it up to you to sort out shall we?
Posted this at end of previous thread but i would like to know what people think as this would stir the yoonionist pot
twathater says:
14 July, 2020 at 4:42 pm
@ Bailey thank you for your response and the positivity (possibly) of what the outcome would be , can I ask , there is something in my mind that remembers that you had or have legal training and I think that was endorsed by a later comment by Ian Mhor can you confirm or refute my belief
As Breeks has opined as the winner of HAILED comment of the day , the establishing and ratification of our sovereignty through the ICJ and the UN not only is IMPERATIVE it is an absolute game changer , to do so ensures that NOTHING can be done or enacted to US by WM without the explicit agreement and consent of OUR SP and our elected representatives , that would effectively HALT ANY and ALL actions due to be carried out including Brexshit and the theft of powers
The SG have to be FORCED to do this on our behalf the question is how , it is one thing starting a crowdfunder for a collective action but this is paramount to the safety and security of Scottish citizens and will impact on ALL of us young and old for the future of our nation so it rightfully should be actioned and financed by OUR GOVERNMENT
Petitions are one way but I honestly don’t trust the organisations running them as they are profit driven , suggestions would be grateful as time is of the essence
So if a 30 year member of the SNP like myself. Has never felt so disilushioned. How does someone like Salmond feel? The party is being run by managers, not leaders.
Nicola started with good intentions. I believe she thought independence was possible. Now I believe that she just wants to maximise the SNP vote. That’s all that matters.
So why would we keep a leader of our party , who doesn’t believe independence is possible. I have had enough. But it’s not her party. It’s for all of us members to tell the party what we want. We can’t do that if one person is ignoring is. That person needs to shuffle along.
CBB
… but you did reply!
This cunning plan has me baffled. The posters on this site launch attack after attack on SNP members. They feel entitled to make personal attacks..Then they fell justified in telling us how to use our 2nd vote!
“You bunch of stupid bastards, now vote for me!” An unusual approach.
I’m not sure if Arendt was large or not, though I don’t think she work in a filed.
The Frailty of Action
Forgiving and Promising: The Redemption of Action through the Potentialities of Action itself in Arendt
http://www.hannaharendt.net/index.php/han/article/view/67/98
Petitions are one way but I honestly don’t trust the organisations running them as they are profit driven
———-
agree with this, i remember 100,000 signatures to change.org being hijacked by gordon brown
petitions are a waste of time
i dont disagree with breeks idea for a legal challenge, i just think he would have more success holding the 60% results of a full scale indy plebiscite in his hand
Oh, I wish I had my glasses, sorry….I’m not sure if Arendt was large or not, though I don’t think she work in a field.
Feminist theory and Hannah Arendt’s concept of public space
https://campuspress-test.yale.edu/seylabenhabib/files/2016/05/Feminist-Theory-and-Hannah-Arendts-Concept-of-Public-Space-2dpmmo2.pdf
Petitions are only taken heed of by democrats. The UK government is being run by public school dictators. We could get 3 million signatures 3 signatures. Both would be ignored.
The SNP just won the GE by a landslide. You can’t get a bigger and better expression of will than that. Boris never even blinked!
We can’t win independence with a petition. We can only win with action.
Schrodinger’s cat,,,,
Are you happy with the way Nicola Sturgeon is running the Party?
Are you happy with the direction Nicola Sturgeon is taking the Party in?
I hear people saying that independence support is at 54%. Nicola’s personal ratings at 70%.
It reminds me of the media saying Ally Macleod was going to bring back the world cup. Remember how that ended. Talk is cheap!
There is no point in having Indy at 80% unless you actually deliver a vote. In three years time Indy could be back at 40%. People can change their opinions.
If everything is so good, then why tell us we need to wait 10 years for a referendum. That’s how long this economic crisis could go on.Why is Nicola running away from success? Because waiting has now become a habit, that’s why!
@robbo
why would i not be?, indy is at 54%
@big jock
it wont be 10 years, either in april 2021 or before then, we will get a vote
what happens after that is anyones guess
Julia Gibb I’m one stupid bastard who will never vote SNP again.
Peter Hitchens interview on Dan Wooten succinct summation of our overall situation.
Nicola Sturgeon is working for UN Agenda 21.
She keeps evil company.
SC and Big Jock it’s not just a petition for a legal challenge it’s another avenue to provide proof of our sovereignty and to encourage other nations to recognise that sovereignty through the ICJ and the UN ratification , that way we can PROVE that England as the WM govt has been acting ILLEGALLY by acting against the wishes of its EQUAL PARTNER so CONSEQUENTLY has BREACHED the TOU
It would also send a clear and unambiguous signal to WM , the EU and USA that ANY trade agreements they enter into with WM will NOT be honoured by Scotland as WM does not have the legality to negotiate with Scotland’s resources
I would assume that if any legal action was undertaken by Scotland to the ICJ and UN all negotiations to include Scotland on the power grab and the EU would have to be suspended
Front page of tomorrow’s National. Looks interesting. I’ll archive a couple of articles for those who can’t access it.
https://twitter.com/ScotNational/status/1283135931394846720?s=20
schrodingers cat
I notice you didn’t answer my questions.
Try again shall we?
Are you happy with the way Nicola Sturgeon is running the Party?
Are you happy with the direction Nicola Sturgeon is taking the Party in?
CAPELLA
You are an SNP Troll.
On here to spread the toxic Unionist agenda of YOUR hero Nicola Sturgeon.
It is so obvious, that you don’t even try to hide it anymore.
Unashamed desire to promote Sturgeon’s toxic Bills that will seriously put the lives of women and Young girls at risk and her Anti-Independence road to nowhere.
SHAME ON YOU CAPELLA.
@twathater
i dont have a great deal of faith in petitions but i cant see any harm in pursuing this course of action while other routes, eg legal etc
@Roberto
yes and yes, my previous answer seemed unequivocal
CameronB Brodie says:
14 July, 2020 at 8:44 pm
Oh, I wish I had my glasses, sorry….I’m not sure if Arendt was large or not, though I don’t think she work in a field.
CBB, on behalf of pretty much all the readers on this site, can I please, please, please beg you to f**king proof read your articles before you post them. No wonder half of the post are full of your comments, half of them are your own corrections! If you are stuck for money let me know, I will easily buy you a dictionary.
I am no literary genius, but there is a website called Grammarly!
Cheers bud.
@twathater says:
14 July, 2020 at 9:41 pm
“I would assume that if any legal action was undertaken by Scotland to the ICJ and UN all negotiations to include Scotland on the power grab and the EU would have to be suspended.”
And how exactly is the miracle going to happen? More importantly, when?
Fuck all is going to happen between now and December. There are more important priorities to sort out, than a desperate last gasp attempt to stop Brexit.
As I said earlier, I hope folk can distinguish between hostile attack and constructive criticism.
Biopolitics and Temporality in
Arendt and Foucault
https://d-nb.info/1211396479/34
schrodingers cat
So like the other SNP Troll Capella, you are willing to support a leader who is going to push through a Bill in the Scottish Parliament that could lead to the sexual assault of a woman or a girl in THEIR secure places.
In toilets or female changing rooms by men dressed as women, who have no other reason to be there other than to attack females?
You are actually supporting a leader who is wanting to make it law for these men to carry their evil deeds.
Same as Capella
SHAME IN YOU SHITEY CAT.
AberdeenPict
My proof reading may be poor, but my mind is not focused on presentation. Bolt.
@AberdeenPict –
Nice try man, but he won’t listen to anyone.
@CamB –
You come out with that after your performance on OT t’other night?!?!?
Wahahahahahahahahaha!!!
That is fuckin priceless Cam – I do believe it’s your best yet sah!
🙂 🙂 🙂 🙂 🙂 🙂
Roberto says:
evil deeds
ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha
who the fuck are you, st francis of assisi lol
CameronB Brodie says:
14 July, 2020 at 10:11 pm
AberdeenPict
My proof reading may be poor, but my mind is not focused on presentation. Bolt.
No worries CBB, proof reading is not against natural law or jurisprudence 😉
Ian, I’m knocking my pan in to help inform opinion, and yet you support someone who shows their appreciation by telling me my typography is shite. I’m at the point man, believe me.
@ianbh
i wondered when someone would pick up on that
lol
schrodingers cat
I hope you are in Court the day the first female who gets sexually assaulted by one of these attackers is up for sentencing.
You can proudly stand up at the back of the courtroom and shout,
“I supported Nicola Sturgeon when she was making it legal for this guy to enter women only safe places,,,I am so FUCKIN proud of myself”
And I hope you have the bottle to look the victim in the eye and tell her you helped Nicola Sturgeon push this law through the Scottish Parliament.
You are a prize arsehole SHITEY CAT.
@CamB –
What do you mean, you’re ‘at the point’?
Is that some kind of weird threat, or just another spelling mistake?
🙂 🙂 🙂 🙂 🙂 🙂
CBB
… your lack of ability to make friends and influence people is legendary.
Ian Brotherhood
I’m at the point of have to admit I may have given you too much benefit of the doubt.
@robbo
mmmwwwwwwaaaaahhhuuu
i hope i haunt yer nightmares weirdo
lol
@sensibledave
it must be a first, cbbc has now managed not only to annoy all the yessers on here, he has even alienated our resident unionist troll..ha ha ha ha ha
@ twathater at 8.34: would a petition to Holyrood on the Scot parliament’s system suit?
Folk apprear to think we are in a political crises, and I agree. So I’ve been trying to point folk towards scientific, ethical and legal paths towards justice. Jet all I get is earache and a lot of hostility. So it’s no wonder the Tories have been able to take the piss out of Scotland for so long.
A “Dignified Life” and the Resurgence of Social Rights
https://scholarlycommons.law.northwestern.edu/cgi/viewcontent.cgi?article=1222&context=njihr
SC
Think you need to refer to correct person auld bean.
Very worrying to see what has been done in Spain to pro indy politicians in Catalunya.
https://www.theguardian.com/world/2020/jul/14/second-catalan-politician-says-phone-was-targeted-by-spware
I have no doubt the ‘uk’ government regularly tries to hack SNP phones. Sad to see just how corrupt Spain really is.
@CamB –
‘I’m at the point of have to admit I may have given you too much benefit of the doubt.’
Huh?
Nah, sorry man, it’s not quite there yet…close, but no cigar sah!
Fancy having another go or what?
@Dogbiscuit
‘I’m one stupid bastard’
One of your few posts nearly everyone will agree with.
@robbo
my apologies . careless of me soz
SC
… I must say, I am somewhat fascinated by him/her.
He/she obviously has a few brain cells .. but is obvs incapable of applying them in any useful, helpful or interesting way. That, coupled with degrees of narcissism and lack of self awareness that are off the scale, make for a an interesting laboratory experiment.
CBB is desperately seeking appreciation, admiration, recognition, etc, but gets none! … but just carries on as if he/she is has the audience in the palm of his/her hands.
Very interesting lab rat.
Front page of tomorrows Times headlining with “Threat of homes tax”.
Said a few weeks ago the Tories would have go for an asset tax.
Not much of an economy left to pay for the staggering extra debt.
An Englishman’s home is his castle.
Not any more it won’t be.
Red Tory Labour will be a shoo in if they do that.
Get your money on now.
@sd
im not sure interesting is an adjective i’d use 🙂
Yet again: this isn’t a fucking school playground. If the childish insults don’t stop – and you know who I mean – it’s ban hammer time. I’m so tired of having to come and smack grown adults on the arse.
I’m pretty sure the list party idea only really has a chance if there is only one list party, any more then there is confusion and the possibility of splitting the list vote. They could all stake out different regions but that still leads to confusion in the media presentation. Unless they get their act together before any election then it’s going to fail.
If there ends up as multiple independence parties (excluding the SNP) on the list ballot then I will play safe.
i understand (I think) the premise of the article.
However, I have lived in Scotland under successive Tory and Labour Governments before devolution; all the way back to the days of most of Scotland being a disgraceful fukn slum and continued to be a slum most of my life.
My father grew up in an area, so bad, that what today is considered ‘slum’ conditions would be considered nirvana. There are extant photographs of Scotland of that period and you’d be hard pressed to work out if you were looking at ‘the Second City of Empire’ or the Fall of Stalingrad.
That is within what what we may call ‘living memory’ and Unionists might call ‘a generation’.
While oil and gas ‘too cheap to meter’ filled the pockets of the city of London and continued to fuel the ‘loadsamoney’ boom there in the 80’s’s – in Scotland it was still two bar electric fires, hot water in ginger bottles, coats over the bed and hunting for change for the meter. All in sight of the flareoffs.
I have lived under Labour Governments in Holyrood too and without question – by any metric – the last 10 years+ has been the healthiest fekn government Scotland has ever seen.
That’s not to say the SNP are not flawed – hell they are – but for me to consider, that currently the political makeup and government in Scotland is ‘Unhealthy’ ? – No, nope I’m not wearing that, sorry.
From the point of view of having a party with seemingly unassailable powerbase, no viable opposition and appearing to become deranged – yes, sure, valid point taken – that’s unhealthy – but it has a metric fuckton of diseased governing to ascend, before its stench reaches anywhere near the high heavens its predecessors did.
That is why it has been in government in Scotland for so long with no opposition and defying the predictions of a jading of the electorate and fall from power. Its delivered, if not independence, at the very least ‘adequate government’
That ‘adequate’ has been embraced as ‘taking things to a whole new level’ speaks volumes about Scotland.
The Scottish electorate are very many things – but most have long ass memories of what were never, at any point, ever – ‘the good old days’ – so currently ‘adequate’ has been like political manna. Sad but true.
Hear hear Iain Mhor.
@ ian mohr – well said. Large swathes of Scotland’s central belt were like a bomb site. I once photographed it for a thesis. A sociologist’s paradise, normal person’s hell.
I’d be very unwilling to risk the vote if there are numerous dodgy independence parties vying for votes. The reason I asked about the Alliance party is that it is illegal for parties to collude. So how could an umbrella group function unless it was colluding?
Ian Brotherhood
I really don’t want to insult you, but you don’t appear to appreciate the value and utility of the stuff I’m posting. I’m trying to point folk towards a fabric of tried and tested political and legal approaches and methods of social emancipation. I’ve not just been making this stuff up, this is how the Royal Town Planning Institute trained me to support open, inclusive, democracy. Though it has taken me some time to re-discover the territory. I had hoped you might have picked up on that, that’s all.
@CamB (11.15) –
You are correct – I don’t appreciate or value the stuff you post. And I honestly don’t consider you pointing that out to be an insult.
I should also apologise if any of my earlier comments appeared ‘childish’, but seriously man, your 10.09 was a fuckin classic!
😉
Until the terms of brexit are known.
They are not known at the moment, there will most likely be a last minute face saving deal come November/December.
Then from January reality bites harder.
Relationship with Europe defined and tangible, real life impacts for exiting visible.
Economic damage from Covid and Brexit realised, November Budget, GDP drop, unemployment increasing, cuts in services, other trade deals non existent, additional UK gov fuck ups, changes in US gov. Support from Europe. 2nd wave impacts and management. Not that i want all of this, but a little bit of pain for the greater good.
That is the time, only 6 months to go, not too long, keep the faith.
Ideally May 21 is the one vote required.
Don’t read BTL here much now, what a circus but @Iain Mhor – very well said.
Don’t agree with every SNP policy, but man, they are so much more competent & committed than anything that went before. Not the SNP’s fault that the yoons are rubbish, they choose to align with London bosses.
Do I think the FM wants Independence, yes I do.
Russell, Swinney, Forbes ? – Yup.
Not sure about some of the careerists though – but I’m damned if I’m gonna let them derail us.
Will I vote SNP 1,2 – depends on the level of commitment to indyref2. I’ll certainly be voting for my local SNP candidate. Other than that, what AS has to say will have a lot to do with my eventual vote. My priority is Independence.
So if was gaming this, i would encourage the formation of the list party, and the discussion, reporting, exposure and arguments around this. Let the media focus on the “split” and differences between the two, before declaring intentions for May 21 in January, coming together as one, and blowing them away.
Jim Lynch
Like you I was introduced to Wings during the 2014 campaign and thought it was great. A new window into politics and an inspiration for people who realised the MSM was completely biased against us. ( There was no National then).
The discussions were mostly positive and optimistic and there was a great number of posters.
Sadly the site seems to have fallen victim to a small number of egotistical trolls who run their little vendettas with each other to the increasing boredom of the many who have abandoned the site.
Many of the most interesting and intelligent posters have departed to pastures new as the trolls call each other names over and over again.
Tedious clowns most of them.
Ian Brotherhood
I’ve had worse on my nose Ian. I really am trying to do better at not interrupting genuine, productive, discussion. But I can’t expecting folk to simply believe me ‘just because’, so I need to provide evidence supporting my position.
I’m not happy with leaving demented mince at the end of the threads, so I’ll post. If I don’t agree with, or want to support, an opinion, I’ll post. If I can come up with a joke, I’ll post. Anything to punt a narrative of ethical rationalism grounded in critical realism. 😉
Iain Mohr
Well said. Patience is required until the Brexit folly has run its course.
I too believe that the SNP will come good by the Holyrood election.
If not then a hard look at them is necessary. Not before.
Hi schrodingers cat at 3:12 pm.
You typed,
“possibly, but england exports nothing unique to anyone. eg, modern quality control ensures that a BMW, heinz ketchup, coca cola etc are exactly the same no matter where they are made.”
Not true in the past and I guess it’s the same nowadays.
When I was in my teens, I was a Coca-Cola person, rather than Pepsi.
I had a trip to Würzburg in 1968. I found that the local Coca-Cola was 1/8d a bottle, compared to the local beer, Würzburger Hofbrau at 1/7d per bottle.
But… it was a lot tastier than the Dundee version. I believe it’s down to the local water and the ratio of Coca-Cola syrup that is added to it.
You also typed at 7:39 pm…
“getting some info about the Alliance for Independence party.
it appears to be an umbrella group for all indy list parties to stand under.”
As I understand it, numerous ‘pro-indy’ parties (or independents) could come into existence. As long as there is agreement to have only one of them per region, they could stand under the umbrella slogan “Alliance For Yes”, which I wouldn’t have thought would fall foul of the EC.
For example, Martin Keatings could stand as an independent in MS & Fife, with the slogan, “Alliance For Yes”. Another independent or party could possibly stand under the same slogan.
In NE Scotland, Alec Salmond could stand as an independent with the same slogan, “Alliance For Yes” as could another pro-indy party.
I can’t understand why the Alliance is saying they hope to put forward 96 candidates. A recipe to dilute the vote.
No more than two separate pro-indy entities in each region – perhaps one independent and a party with 4 on their list.
A lot of discussion and agreement required but you know know how it is – Scots will argue about the colour of dog $h!†…
I think the Rev was referring to the Sturgeonistas who accuse anyone who has not signed up to Sturgeon’s sexual assault Bill, as Yoons and belonging to some Brigade.
@bdtt
lol, coca cola, 1968, wurtzburg…. things have moved on 🙂
as to the new alliance party, the devil is in the detail, ie, who gets to stand in 1,2,3 etc on the list
@Roberto
Haven’t you been banned from this site at least 5 or 6 times already?
Hi schrodingers cat.
But Coca-Cola is not bottled in a globally centralised location. It is bottled where it is sold, kinda like those Asian beers (Tiger and so on) that are bottled in the breweries in Alloa, or Nottingham or wherever – except for Tsing Tao – that’s imported from China. Rather a nice accompaniment to a curry, BTW.
Ayeright
You Talkin to me???
Should you not be called Naw wrang.
Are you hounding me???
Did the Rev not just warn posters to behave themselves.
Please stop harassing me Mr Ayeright.
@Roberto
You Talkin to me???
Haha I get it you’re really Robert De Niro, sorry sir LOL
The problem with Sturgeon and her supporters is that they will be held responsible for the assault on any female who is attacked in her safe spaces.
Go on, Sturgeonites, tell me I’m wrong.
Ayeright
Stop the stalking
Weirdo
@BDTT
” But… it was a lot tastier than the Dundee version. I believe it’s down to the local water and the ratio of Coca-Cola syrup that is added to it.”
There are 600 million people living in Europe, I would imagine there will be a few variations or wrinkles, all over the place.
Your local ALDI in Whitfield will have a slight difference to the ones in Wuppertal.
Its all Industrial grade German food at the end of the day.
(I worked in a Sausage factory in Weinheim near Heidelberg, back in the 90s, the “meat” was white paste stored in vast vats.)
Admittedly its a cheap food if your skint, but you can’t beat our own homegrown sausage, like Lincolnshire or Cumberland.
I do not think there will be anything left to vote for in Holyrood 2021 as nearly all of the powers will have been taken away by then. Will be Scotland’s county council building.Whatever way out of union must happen before Dec. 31st.
Lincolnshire and Cumberland sausage can’t be “homegrown” in Scotland.
For the benefit of any doubt, I’d like to say my post shouldn’t be construed as a misty eyed and wholehearted backing of the SNP – It was comparing its government.
I agree new parties should, and believe, will emerge. They should and I think, will be supported. It may be a slow burn for the impatient and impetuous; because Scotland has barely had time to get used to ‘adequate’ before it can realise there can be better than adequate.
If the post appeared apologist at all, it was merely alluding to the fact; that whatever it’s failings (there are many) the SNP’s rise and acceptance, has created a landscape where the old can be swept away and the new embraced.
Perhaps they will be the architects of their own downfall – but at least they did the landscaping, caused the old vines to wither and cleared ground for the the new seeds to take root. Just a shame they appear to have partaken of the hemlock though.
But I’ll not mourn a political party’s passing, nor stand in its way – at some point apologies become bitter grinds which won’t sweeten.
As always, politics abhors a vacuum – and we live, as ever, in hope of better things to come. My old man lived to see them… he voted Indy at the first shout.
One of the most disturbing things about abattoirs is the grill on the floor in the cutting room – it’s so that
NOTHING IS WASTED
– all that random chop and gloop, goes somewhere. They can take some chemical compound based on blood plasma and with it mixed in the crap it magically turns into something “meat like” – they call it “reconstituted meat” and is, supposedly, used for pet food, though, who is to say where kebab meat comes from – they say it is lamb, but I have never seen a perfectly cylindrical lamb. I digress – while mentioning all this, FOR NO REASON, may I point out some new articles
little RORY SCOTHORNE is in a tizz (in bella) – this dick is all over the place – it’s got debord, manufacturing consent, virtual reality, and “magical thinking” – there’s some absolute belters in it, but I will leave the best laughs as surprises for you to find. Go and give rory a comment, he needs it.
then
comrade JONATHONIONICH SHOFI-STEIN is on about the new list party, with “lessons from RISE” – NO LAFFING AT THE BACK THERE !!
– who did that? was it you!
“In setting up Rise, various political miscalculations were made”
like what? a manifesto which was a shopping list of ideas made up of a guardian column writers wank fantasy, with a pink feather boa and arseless leather chaps, to a techno soundtrack?? – what’s not to like? It’s not we were too radical, we were not radical ENOUGH ! (and you keep telling yourself that, honey)
and
MIKE SMALL(-town boy) says something KEREVAN said was “deeply problematic”, which is the kind of thing the fake indy gatekeepers and ID politicians say when someone says things like – “a man with his dick cut off is not a woman” – but that’s not it, for once; in fact –
– the “working class” were mentioned by kerevan, which is verboten in identity politics; répète moi- “there is no working class – ONLY WHITE RACISTS”
– one thrust of the article is “LEXO IS STILL A NONCE IN MY BOOK”
– we should not do actual things, but pursue a myriad of indistinct intangible things he does not specify
– radical voices must approve, which I think is a “dog whistle” for “make the trannies happy”
– BLM and ANTI RACISM and “Housing Activists” will win independence ? (- how, does george soros bribe the UK to fuckoff – even he isn’t that rich)
– he quotes Gerry Hassan, who is on top form as you can all see here –
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0UJZF5iRhNg
Many years ago, there was Fall record called “Perverted by Language” – which comes to mind reading this pap. Though to be fair, the average Mark E Smith lyric is more coherent and logical.
TL;DR for yizall –
“we all hate the list party idea unless it becomes a menagerie for all our hobby horses”
Briandoonthetoon at 11.57
I don’t think that’s true, Brian.
If they only stand in the list (which is what they have said), those 96 people will be distributed across 8 lists (would be 12 on each, with only a maximum of 7 seats available and they’d not get all of them! Maybe they plan to keep resigning so that there’s a turnover of personnel).
Voters, however, would vote for “the Alliance” or whatever they called themselves, not for the individual candidates.
They would only dilute the vote if, instead of 12 per region on a single list, they had fewer candidates and more than one list per region, with different names.
Have they implied/stated that they might do that?
@ Sarah 10.37pm thanks for your response , unfortunately I don’t know much about going about it but it appears no one is interested in the legal route for entrenching a method to inflict a black eye on WM and STOP any and all power grabs , heyho we will just have to sit idly by and wait for the economic impact of covid to pass and hope that no other crisis crops up that Nicola will have to deal with
El Gordo it will be a hard Brexit stop kidding yourself.
jfngw voting for dictatorship is not what I would call ‘playing safe ‘ .
Ian moor most people don’t remember the 1930s so get a grip. The social conditions you describe in Scotland of old were just as prevalent in England Wales and Northern Ireland. The Irish Republic my own Father left in 1948 was for him even worse.
Your ‘poor us’ appeal lends no credence to your argument.
Fireproofjim would rather watch the house burn down before he believes it.
Ayeright hello.
Ayeright says:
15 July, 2020 at 12:34 am
Lincolnshire and Cumberland sausage can’t be “homegrown” in Scotland.
… Could be. Once it loses it’s Protected Geographical Status from the EU’s many International Trade Agreements, any Tom, Dick or Harry can make a sausage and call it Lincolnshire or Cumberland sausage.
BBC’s Philip Sim writes quite a good article on the possibility of a second Independence party on the list
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-scotland-politics-53402456?intlink_from_url=https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/scotland&
Next phase of the end of the road today in The National:
THE SNP will today challenge the UK Government to rule out a Brexit power grab on the Scottish Parliament – as MPs debate an SNP motion calling for an extension to the transition period.
Mike Russel is also calling for an independent Scotland:
http://archive.fo/oHVhj
“THE SNP will today challenge the UK Government to rule out a Brexit power grab on the Scottish Parliament..”
Aye, I can hear Blackford now… “Scotland will not be….blah blah blah..”.
Is it really any wonder when they walk out…
@capella
sim says
“The “additional member system” features 73 constituency seats, elected on a traditional first past the post (FPTP) basis, and 56 “list” seats scattered across seven regions.”
simple stuff, easy to get wrong, there are eight regions
also
“The pro-independence side are not alone in debating whether they should try to game the list system, incidentally – George Galloway is attempting to set up an “Alliance for Unity” that sounds a lot like a unionist version of Mr Thompson’s umbrella project.”
this kinda shows that sim has a very basic understanding of the system. galloway standing a unionist list party could only hoover up unionist list votes at the expense of unionist list msp’s
in 7/8 regions in 2016, 850k snp list votes elected one snp list msp, maree tod, so while a new indy list party could replace maree tod, if it hoovered up snp list votes, it would elect indy list msps mainly at the expense of unionist msps.
I is clear sim doesnt understand this simple fact. indeed it is the basis for having a new indy list party in the first place 🙁
A new Independence Party is now absolutely essential.
Not just because it suit the Hollywood seat arithmetic but because it provides an alternative to the SNP.
The SNP is now riven with time servers whose only interest is their hold on the paid sinecures of a party grown fat on electoral control. No longer interested in independence many of these apparatchiks espouse hatred to Alex Salmond and those who would push for independence.
No matter what way you cut it the SNP is now split top to bottom with huge numbers unhappy about the direction of the party and the utter control wielded by a coterie whose interest is self interest.
An alternative party would be grasped with open arms by many. It would reinvigorate the fight for independence, and as a previous commentator said, a new party would hold the SNPs feet to the fire.
Never in forty years have I felt the way that I feel now about my party. It is not the party I joined all those years ago. It needs to change but to do so it needs help to do so. An alternative party supports that objective, will provide that stimulus. But more importantly, an alternative party will drive forward the fight for independence that the current SNP leadership has absolutely no commitment to.
The SNP Scottish Government have become as corrupt and power crazy as their English Tory counterparts.
They tell the gullable and hard of thinking any shite to keep them in power.
And the gullable and hard of thinking keep believing them.
Latest count of #COVID19 cases worldwide at 0100 GMT, July 15:
World: 13,273,537
U.S.: 3,426,053
Brazil: 1,926,824
India: 906,752
Russia: 738,787
Peru: 333,867
Chile: 319,493
Mexico: 304,435
South Africa: 298,292
Britain: 292,931
Iran: 262,173
(Data: Johns Hopkins University)
the EU nations seem to be doing a better job of fighting the pandemic than most other regions.
Nicola tells the faithful,,,
“One more Mandate, one more push”
And her flock of idiots believe her.
Mike Russel is also calling for an independent Scotland:
He said: “Having been a member of the committee for the last four years, I can tell you this is now the end of the road and there is no possibility of us accepting these changes.”
Eh. Aye, you are going to accept it.
You accepted Brexit.
You accepted English parliamentary sovereignty without legal challenge.
You accepted an English veto on Indyref 2.
You accepted delusional four nation herd immunity
You accepted two third parties negotiating over, and divvying up Scotland’s natural resources.
You accepted the subsidy myth and the GERS figures that say Scotland and Wales are responsible for 110% of the UK deficit.
I would put it to you sir, that there is very little that you won’t accept.
Capella says:
15 July, 2020 at 7:24 am
…. as MPs debate an SNP motion calling for an extension to the transition period.
That’s just not enough Mike Russell. It’s nowhere near the measure of response required.
For a start, the deadline for extending the transition period expired a couple of weeks ago. Did nobody tell you? Maybe you should read Wings BTL… Your timetabled debate is already academic.
For a second, extending the transition period is a sticking plaster that’s already wet and won’t stick, when what is needed is aggressive surgery to fully extricate the Nation and Economy of Scotland from the flaming tailspin of Brexit.
Scotland needs a robust and decisive initiative, not to delicately tinker with the niceties of Brexit, but to forcefully stun it, cosh it, taser the whole carcass and bring it to state of paralysis to stop the unconstitutional subjugation of Scotland in it’s tracks. Not delay it, not postpone it, take it out below the knees and STOP it.
All the bellicose rumblings from Ian Blackford won’t do a damned thing, because it’s all been said before, and when Westminster called his bluff, on the 31st January the SNP crumpled like a packet of crisps.
Scotland requires an emergency constitutional interdiction, not just to ram into the spokes of Brexit, but equally as vital, to ram into the spokes of Westminster’s aggressive colonial usurpation of Scotland’s popular sovereignty of the people.
UK Parliamentary Sovereignty and it’s attempted subjugation of Scottish sovereign democracy MUST be disputed in an International forum at the UN or Council of Europe, and Scotland’s colonial subjugation must be challenged and defeated with immediate effect.
And the idiots who support Sturgeon will also be just as guilty as her for giving weirdos and perverts the green light to assault females in their safe places.
Only Sturgeon fanatics would support her staying in power to let her push this disgusting Bill through the Scottish Parliament.
Are you a Sturgeon supporter,,,,if so I hope you have the bottle to look the victims of these sexual assaults in the eye and tell them,,,
“I am guilty of supporting the person who made this happen”
SHAME ON ALL YOU STURGEON SUPPORTERS.
@ SC – point taken re 8 regions. However re Galloway – he could be aiming at hoovering up new or non voters and tempting Labour voters to take a punt on him rather than switch to independence. He’s not short of vanity after all.
@ Breeks – well then – we’re stuffed aren’t we.
@breeks
when Westminster called his bluff, on the 31st January the SNP crumpled like a packet of crisps.
—————–
crumpled like a covid 19 victim?
——————
UK Parliamentary Sovereignty and it’s attempted subjugation of Scottish sovereign democracy MUST be disputed in an International forum at the UN or Council of Europe,
——————-
anything that raises to the attention of the UN’s Security Council has to contend with the fact that the UK has a veto on that Council?
Capella says:
he could be aiming at hoovering up new or non voters and tempting Labour voters
——————-
it makes no difference, unionist voters, regardless of new/non or labour etc, voting for him, competes directly with other unionist parties not indy supporters,
he isnt stupid and must know this, the only way his plan would work would be for the lab/lib/tory parties to unite under a unionist party banner and stand unionist only candidates in constituencies
Through the EU Block Exemption regulation,(2003)
this allows your motor vehicle warranty servicing to be done at your chosen garage not the main dealer workshop,
(as long as equivalent quality parts are used,
independent garages charge about £45/55 ph where main dealers charge £100+ with one dealer quoted at £230 ph,)
will the main dealers regain their monopoly on warranty sevicing after we are out of EU.
Capella @ 8.24
It’s no all that impossible that “The Twat wi the Hat who thinks he’s a Cat” Galloway, is here to play a Nigel Farage type role and draw all the Media attention.
We already know they think Nicola gets too much TV time and that’s over the virus!
So it’s no impossible his role is to just hogg as much air time and front page’s as they can manage,which can be considerable for someone no even elected to parliament as we know to our cost with the shameless promoting of Farage!
Capella says:
15 July, 2020 at 8:25 am
@ Breeks – well then – we’re stuffed aren’t we.
Under the moribund SNP I rather fear we are.
Seems to be the conclusion a growing number of people have been coming to for some time.
So more PIRLPs on the horizon.
Are they all legit, or could the SNP sneakily be behind one to make the concept all but unworkable, coz ya know, they have been known to undermine individuals credibility for political advantage by dubious methods…
The fact that as far as I am aware neither PIRLP have contacted YES groups (because they will surely be the main source of best informed local activists for such an initiative to work) to discuss best candidate selection and campaigning strategy for each region reeks of plans formulated by fuckin idiots…
Breeks 8.16.
Yes we have heard all the bluff and bluster of Blackford and Russell for 3 years. Remember these classics: ” Scotland will remain a European Nation”…” Scotland will not stand for this” …” There will be a referendum”.
It was nothing but grand standing. I can shout at my TV and no one hears me. Blackford shouts and we all hear it. But the result of my shouting and his is exactly the same. No one in power gives two hoots.
It is not with words that a war is won. It is with direct action. Ghandi did a very simple thing. He created a national strike and broke the law regarding salt mining. Until our MP’s break the WM rules nothing will change.
At the moment they are compliant. They are playing by WM rules. Thy do that by taking part in rigged debates and votes where Scotland can’t change the outcome.
The system is rigged against Scotland. It’s a numbers game. 10 against 1 always produces the same outcome.
I despair at the compliance of the SNP. But the real question is this. Who is stopping the referendum? From where I am sitting it’s actually Nicola Sturgeon , not Boris!
Roberto says:
15 July, 2020 at 8:05 am
“ The SNP Scottish Government have become as corrupt and power crazy as their English Tory counterparts. They tell the gullable and hard of thinking any shite to keep them in power.”
And in that statement you hit the nail on the head Roberto. Bloated and complacent there are far too many in the SNP who have no commitment to independence only their retention of their paid sinecures.
Currently the SNP enjoy the monopoly as the notional Independence Party and for independence voters there is currently no alternative. A list party however would break that monopoly whilst supporting the parliamentary arithmetic. And the electorate is perfectly capable of recognising the benefit of voting SNP in the constituency and Indy Party in the list.
That a list party with maybe 25 seats would hold the balance of power to form a super majority the troughers in the SNP would be on notice to perform..
But there are many good members in the SNP, and they are members who are currently denied a voice through the control freakery that now pervades the party. These members know what is happening, albeit to a lesser extent the wider electorate may not, or at least not just yet. There are a lot of frustrated Yes out there, and it is thus far only the unity of purpose that has kept things together.
It is the perfect situation for the establishment. A neutered SNP failing to take a shot at the independence goal whilst all the time saying that it’s committed to independence. But with a supermajority through the addition of a list party things change, and the SNP will change to.
Irish politics tells us how a ‘ constitutional ‘ Home Rule Party, like the SNP now is was absolutely screwed by Westminster. A list party will help us prevent that.
Remember the EU Protected Geographical Status from many International Trade Agreements, Lincolnshire or Cumberland sausage are of little concern to us as we can name sausages with
Herbs after any Scottish region we chose however not being in the EU will see English Whisky
German Whisky, French- anyone anywhere can abuse our much loved beverage.
I can see bottles in Asda and Tesco with Scottish style whisky made with Westminster subsidy in
England.
Trump declares the English tipple his favourite!
Roberto, or is it Joe, Oscar, and Co?
Same garbage,
Different name,
Found out,
Try again.
@ Liz g – George Galloway is very like Nigel Farage and Ruth Davidson and Jim Sillars IMO in that he will be paraded on TV loudly denouncing the SNP and Independence. I would think quite a lot of the Labour old guard, who had lost hope after the December election and turned their thoughts to independence, might well be swayed by George Galloway, Commissar of the Peoples Republic of Dundee.
“Trying to force Scotland out of the UK through the back door is undemocratic and dangerous, and the 2014 once-in-a-generation ‘Edinburgh Agreement’ process which the SNP promised to respect was the gold standard.
Pamela Nash, Scotland in Union
or
Nicola Sturgeon
Twathater @ 08:33 pm and 09:37 pm – You’re right, a challenge based on the Treaty should be financed by the Scottish Government and should have been initiated long ago. The comment someone made last night that all we’re doing is trying to stop brexit at this late stage is missing the point. It looks like a legal challenge would halt the negotiations because Scotland’s assets can’t be negotiated away if a challenge to the legality of that is underway. However, I am afraid that the Scottish Government may ignore a petition or calls for action.
I don’t know what has happened to the SNP. Previous leaders would have taken all the chances offered. They seem to be trapped into thinking that we we only act within the remits of the 1998 Scotland Act. Even Joanna Cherry falls into this trap as her recent piece in the National shows. It’s as if they are being badly advised. It’s not “woke” people having infiltrated the party I’m most bothered about, it’s people whose loyalty lies elsewhere and who don’t care about independence seemingly having manoeurvred themselves into advisory positions. Joanna should know better but it’s as if they feel they can’t take a radical stance. Having the treaty sounded would be perfectly legal so I don’t understand it.
Scotland cannot have a proper democracy until it gets shot of Westminster, until then there will always be three parties financed from London that have their priorities tied to what is best for another country and what they can personally gain from it. They are no different to those that took the English shilling in 1707.
The way to get rid of them is to have greater than 50% of Scotland tell them it’s over. This is either through a referendum or a plebiscite election, if it is through an election it has to be one party and a single vote as otherwise it will be disputed.
Those London financed politicians then need to decide if they want to be part of Scotland’s future or it’s time to leave politics and hand the baton to those whose primary focus is making Scotland a success.
wow
ALASTAIR CAMPBELL
@campbellclaret
· 55m
Hello from Italy. What an amazing place -Dolomites. Why on Earth are we taking away the chances of our young people to live and work here freely? Why are we adding to the economic disaster of Covid? Blue passports that aren’t blue? Good luck ?@theSNP? in Opposition debate
the worm is turning
@ Davie Oga – obviously Pamela Nash of SiU – here’s the archive version via the Daily Record:
http://archive.fo/sAy5g
@David Oga
I would think it was NS and it’s true. You cannot leave unless it has the majority support. It’s no good people demanding we respect the people of Scotland’s sovereignty but then decide to ignore it when it doesn’t match the result we want.
@Bailey
I agree the Treaty of Union is corrupt and works to Scotland’s disadvantage, it gives another country the power to strip Scotland of its assets. I doubt even the Treaty of Versailles expected Germany to give 92% of its asset value to another country.
Again I just worry that if we divide we are ruled. Those who oppose iIndependance are more than happy if we start bickering and arguing amongst ourselves. For sure the British State is actually agitating and instigating this. If we are to have a second iIndependance party I want it to stand on a velvet divorce platform if at Section 30 order is refused…. I personally don’t think we need that, although it seems many others disagree. I want Scotland independent yesterday, I have spent enough time in small successful European nations to understand how we could build and create a better nation fro all. it would have a cost but definately that is a cost worth paying. By the way Stu make it a rule that everyone use their real name… Respect to everyone who does already.
So a Panelbase survey for Business for Scotland, has shown that 49% of people South of the border want independence for England.
The poll revealed 52% of Tory voters want out of this union, whereas the Scottish Tory voters are way out of touch with their English counterparts, disagreeing on the break up of the union, 94% want to keep it.
On Labour voters South of the border almost 52% want England to become independent, whilst North of the border 43% of Labour voters in Scotland want to break up the union.
David Oga @ 09:18 – If Pamela Nash is putting out statements about us “trying to force Scotland out of the UK by the backdoor” I think Scotland in Union is rattled. There is nothing in national or international law which requires a pre-independence referendum. That is the route Alex Salmond took but that isn’t where we are now, with so many mandates (and we never needed one legally anyway).
A Scottish Government led by a strong SNP First Minister would have the treaty sounded and rescinded in the international courts. We already have a mandate as the majority of seats in election after election have been for independence supporting parties and we have mandates to hold a referendum which can be enacted with a ratifying referendum after the treaty has been resiled. From what I understand, other countries which have broken away from larger states have done this. Pre-independence referendums are rarely won as Quebec found too. The other state involved can interfere (this interference isn’t legal, but they do).
This would have the strength of being legitimate in the eyes of the international community and would take it out of the domestic sphere, away from covert Whitehall and Westminster interference.
The SNP of old would have done this at this stage but the party now seems to have been “captured” and isn’t bold enough.
George Galloway, the Scot who advocates independence for every other occupied, oppressed country in the world, bar his country of birth Scotland, is returning to Scottish politics this week.
Galloway’s plan is to aid unionist parties, asking them not to oppose each other in the list seats.
I really can’t fathom why Galloway would go to such lengths to oppose Scottish independence, mind you he’s been very keen on taking the Queens shilling all his life.
Galloway is determined to hold Scotland’s future development back, and keep us chained to a union that has exploited and belittled us for centuries. He’s obviously quite happy to see our parliament negated, and our standards on foods, agriculture, animal welfare, NHS, etc, sold off to Trump via London.
Well I’m not surprised to read that foreign care home workers who’ve risked their lives to look after the residents in care homes during the worst of this pandemic are to be uncerimously dumped by Westminster, after the British government stated that they will not qualify for the new post-Brexit health and care visa.
This is the kind of callous and cold hearted union that George Galloway wants to keep us locked into.
Galloway was yet another Labour Donkey who was in politics
For George Galloway.
He would shift seats and party link an intoxicated gatecrasher
to keep his nose in the trough.
God knows how he could be vain but now completely bald he
Sit under the intense heat from studio lights with a fedora hat on
Like an OAP at a Michael Jackson convention.
The white glove will follow as the age spots spear on his hand.
Would you vote for a man who wants to be Rula Lenska’s Cat?
I wouldn’t give him a saucer of milk never mind an endorsement.
Meow!
I need to correct my last reply to David Olga, the middle part of the quote was nonsense but NS could have said the undemocratic bit and the gold standard bit. Nobody promised ‘once in a generation’. Slapped my own wrists for not reading it properly.
unionists begin to panic
Kenny Farquharson
@KennyFarq
Nationalists planning a new indy party are cheats. My column in @thetimes today.
basically, how dare you vote for a party of your choice?
in nef in 2019 ge, 5k tories switched to libdem to get rid of the snp mp
In Scottish politics there are only two parties – independence or unionist. Crunch time.
Tech giant Huawei’s equipment is to be stripped from the UK’s 5G Network it will take to 2027 to do so, set the project back at least five years, and add at leat another £2 billion pounds to the costs.
30th June 2020. Deadline for agreeing an extension to the Brexit Transition Period.
15th July 2020.
https://twitter.com/ScotNational/status/1283307059081932800
“ MPs will debate a motion calling for an extension to the transition period today“.
Anybody see a problem here?
I’m telling you Scotland, they’re playing us like mugs, and have been from the beginning.
In Scottish politics, there is NO Scottish Independence Party in the Scottish Parliament.
Sturgeon is a fraudster.
Republic of Scotland,
No doubt the Chinese company who we’re told might spy on us being replaced by American companies who actually do spy on us.
I see the two SNP Trolls still creeping about Wings this morning.
People starting to see you two clowns for what you are.
A couple of Sturgeon hero worshippers.
A sort of Scottish version of the American Mormons who chap your door,,,but you don’t answer it because you know they are going to bore you to death with their bullshit.
@Breeks
All these EU deadlines are movable feasts, if the UK asks for an extension anytime before the end of the year I expect the EU will agree rather than have a no deal. I lost count of the number of definite deadlines we had passed during the withdrawal agreement.
In fact no deal could be best for independence as it would be a complete shit show and the only chance to alleviate this would be independence and reconnection to the EU.
Are Capella and SHITEY cat our very own version of the American Mormon???
Would you answer the door to any of these two Sturgeon hero worshippers???
Would you let them try to convert you to believing in Sturgeonism???
I remember listening to George Galloway on the TV years ago quoting his dad’s reply to somebody saying that the sun would never set on the British empire, which he agreed with “because God wouldn’t trust them in the dark”.
Well George’s dad would be sorely disappointed in him now.
He has turned into a pathetic figure after losing his marbles quite a few years back which is a shame really as I thought he was fantastic in front of the American senators.
Changed days alas.
Breastplate@ 10.39am.
That’s it in a nutshell Breastplate, I’d even venture as far as to day, Johnson did it to appease Trump on a UK/USA trade deal.
Of course Snowden revealed to us that the USA completely hacked Japan via US software, which I think is used in Europe.
@Roberto
You seem somewhat infatuated.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fU8tQpCZEzg
I’ll tell you one way the SNP will sit up and take notice that does not affect Holyrood pro-indy seats:
A long running campaign for indy voters to abstain from voting SNP for Westminster.
No indyref or plebiscite election from Holyrood = no votes for SNP MP candidates at the next UK GE.
How’s does that put pressure on the SNP? The SNP is a now a big beast. Big beasts take lots of money to keep running.
The Short Money the SNP receive from the UK state is a major source of SNP revenue. The amount of Short money obtained is proportionate to MP seats.
Loss of SNP MPs = severe financial difficulties for the SNP.
And as a bonus, Pete Wishart and Alyn Smith would pish their pants at the thought of their snouts being dragged from the trough.
Bailey @ 9.37
I think it’s because Holyrood is an instrument of Westminster.
It is fine to declare what would/could/should be done when your not in any position to have to actually do it.
I’d guess there’s an element of not giving Westminster a ” legitimate ” reason to act against Holyrood, while a good majority in Scotland don’t back ye
(and they don’t ) ….
having said that…
There is much that could have and should have been done these last few year’s especially since there’s no such risks attached to the SNP MPs at Westminster.
There is no real reason that they could not have pushed the envelope and galvanised the Yes movement to create the unstoppable demand that would throw the protection of the People of Scotland loudly and firmly around Holyrood!
That they ultimately represent their constituents in the so called “big main Parliament” is what would have allowed Nicola and the Scottish government to claim they don’t have any real authority to direct any Westminster MPs actions.
By using Westminister’s own position against them the Westminster MPs could have been unleashed from the party leadership and have become a formidable force in the courts ,in Westminster,in the media and in the Yes Movement it’s self.
Why they haven’t and don’t is beyond me!
E.G. A small step but a giant leap would be to cleave to the Indy Media,we are all over the internet and we are their base,yet they make no use of us whatsoever! Every time Ian Blackford ect is interviewed by the MSM one of them should be simultaneously sending a pod cast to be distributed through the Indy blogs…ALL of them… Taking turns live Tweeting Question time and the other main politics shows would be useful in getting Scottish issues “trending “.
None of it rocket science none of it impacting on Covid, Brexit or WW2 Porn planning but all of it relevant to Scotland,and probably makin the BBC wish it had gone ahead with the Scottish 6.
Why do the Westminster MPs still allow the MSM to decide their exposure?
What are the Scottish Westminster MPs so shy about,when it comes to Indy I’d say is the real question we should be pushing!
@Colin Alexander
My preference was to spoil the GE ballot paper, if we could have spoilt papers as the winner in nearly every constituency then it sends a stronger message than sending people to WM just to be ridiculed. What do they achieve there anyway?
Capella @ 10:24am:
It’s an interesting point you raise. It wouldn’t be the first time that people have said that Slab, STories and SLib Dems should give up the pretence and become one unionist party.
That they don’t is because they prefer to have the ability to soft pedal and co-operate on the sly where voters don’t like one of their parties for whatever reason.
Some have often remarked that becoming one unionist party might have worked for them because, in most constituencies, the vote would have coalesced behind them and kept the SNP out.
But we must be reaching the point now where even that wouldn’t work for them in a lot of cases. So their options are narrowing.
So it’s list seats for a lot of them, or nowt.
Now some of them are starting to squawk that more than one nationalist party in the list is cheating. But they are to get away with it with their three unionist parties, sitting there taking list seats where they fail on the constituency and tacitly helping each other.
You can argue all day long about how well a second nationalist party might do on the list but I think we can all agree that it’s no more ‘cheating’ than the ‘carve ups’ the unionist parties do with each other to ensure they get their seats, and it will actually be much less like ‘cheating’ if the nationalist parties are not tacitly helping each other in the same way.
Whatever one’s stance on whether a list party could do well enough, the reason your James Kellys of SLAB are frightened is in case the following comes to pass:
i) the SNP hoover up the constituencies;
ii) the list party does do well and takes a lot of list seats.
I’m not arguing these things are *going* to happen but they are one eventuality that these types are worried might happen, 100%.
Roberto, give it a rest.
I support a new list party, but you are adding nothing here.
Agreed Johnny
There may be another problem coming down the track. The “John Curtice: AFI risks destroying the unity etc” story in the National has a comment from Lorna Campbell below the line at 8.22 pm on 14 July suggesting that it looks as if the House of Lords are drawing up legislation which would mean that the Scottish Government wouldn’t be able to call a referendum on Scottish independence without “a 70% majority of the UK” being in favour first. By the time the SNP wake up, this will be passing through the House of Commons.
I know that the House of Lords had also been looking into legislation which would lock us into an indivisible union not unlike the one the Catalans have with Spain. I don’t know whether that’s been ditched and this “70% majority of UK citizens before we’re even granted a referendum” has replaced it, or whether the “Spanish” solution is still being looked at. Whatever they do, it will be passed through the House of Commons with the Tories using their majority. The fact that this would be undemocratic would be neither here nor there. It would be riding a coach and horses through the international Treaty we already have, but they are doing that already and our elected representatives are doing nothing.
This is where the six years of dithering has got us. Most people on here know that there will never be a Section 30 Order but I don’t understand why the upper echelons of the SNP prevaricate. At this rate, our resources, assets and even the NHS will be bartered away in a trade deal with the USA in a few months, the powers of the Scottish Parliament are already being stripped and the right to enact legislation will have to go through a committee chosen by the Prime Minister from next year.
A referendum won’t be possible so the Section 30 Order will be shown up for the nonsense it always was and I’m not quite sure what the “hang on a bit, it’s just round the corner people will say”.
SNP MPs will tell you they are at WM to speak up for Scotland and represent their constituents.
We all know they achieve NOTHING at WM.
When the SNP don’t deliver: Hit them in the pocket.
@Liz g (10.55) –
Hear hear.
Some would go further and suggest that the SNP heid yins have shown a serious lack of discipline by allowing certain members to treat the movement with contempt and bring the party itself into disrepute.
(The entire Woke brigade – Hunter, Archibald, Alyn Smith and his acolytes* etc – obviously, but also self-satisfied blowhards like Pete Wishart.)
*paused there to dry-boak
Have you seen the absolute arrogance of some in the SNP, hammering down on the list parties.
Apparently it’s distorting the outcome to vote for this ‘non established’ party.
I know the SNP are increasingly out of touch, but this is gobsmacking.
Also Humza’s speaking to authority apparently. Does he not realise, he is an authority?
Bailey @ 11.03
That one’s partly smoke and mirrors Bailey.
Dangerous to us yes,but mainly only if we buy it…
The Lords are trying to change the ACTs of Union not the Treaty.
They certainly have the powers to change any ACT they choose in Westminster.
But not the Treaty between us,to negotiate a new Treaty would firstly end the old one with no guarantee Scotland would sign up to another one.
Who would negotiate for England?
Scotland might insist on better terms 🙂
No Bailey they’ll no touch that Treaty they don’t dare,it created the UK Parliament and it’s end would end the UK Parliament,that would be real independence by the back door.
What they are trying to do is to Bluff people into thinking they made a new Treaty and our job is to make sure that enough Scots don’t buy what they’re selling!
SC I was ignoring you repeating excusing NS inaction due to Covid, but I will reply once.
The SNP did not take Covid seriously until March. The first Cobra meeting was set up March 8th.
NS followed the four nation approach until she realised it wasn’t working and changed tack.
So please stop with the capitulation on Jan 1st was due to Covid, it wasn’t
I read this on the internet. I am not sure who wrote it, but I think it is very correct.
“Woke ideology is a universal solvent. It destroys everything it touches. The moment it invades a system or institution it corrodes and dissolves its mission, values, and commitments. It brokers no dissent, targeting the best and brightest first.”
I think the example of the SNP upholds the above. How can there be “wokeness” in a party for which the main (should be sole) aim is independence for Scotland. Surely indy is for the woke and the non-woke?
I have never even understood how the indy campaign can be political. I get that Scotland is generally more left-wing than England, so there are votes to be had when England moves more to the right. But indy should also be for Scottish Tories who want to see us invest in self-reliance, oil funds…
the snp are correct to argue for snp 1/2, they will fall foul of the electoral commission
unionist voters are able to vote tactically regardless of the unionist parties arguing vote tory 1/2. indy voters can this too
Capella 4.15
The latest polls puts Indy on 54% that’s up only two points since just before ’14 Indy referendum, and I am not aware of a poll showing a higher figure.
Colin Alexander @ 11.11
You’ve been around long enough to know we’re not that stupid.
You know fine well that the Westminster MPs really really matter.
Don’t go suggesting that the SNP can safely be given a bloody nose by not voting for them at Westminster!
When we all know fine well the opposite is true..and so Colin, do you.
I agree that would be a good move Colin Alexander but the problem with that is, it’s 5 years away
Liz @ 11:18am:
This is an attempt to deny that there is a policy reason for the other list party (or parties) existence.
Claim there’s no policy distinction and then there’s no reason to vote for the list party.
However, this is disingenuous because there is in fact a big rupture about the pace of pursuing independence.
Some may try and say this isn’t ‘different enough’ but actually how things/strategies etc are prioritised or chased could make all the difference in the world.
Take as an example Green parties. Generally all parties now at least give lip service to the idea that something needs to be done about the environment. So obviously the Greens should pack up because they aren’t ‘different enough’ now, right?
Well, no, because they plainly prioritise it more than many other political parties and have to stay around to keep bigger parties honest on this issue.
So it’s a nonsense to say ‘your policies are too similar’ when they are prioritised differently or they are pursued by different strategies.
Remember that unionists’ biggest gripe after 2016 was that the Greens’ and SNP’s positions on thresholds for a new indyref was that *they weren’t similar enough*! Now, some other entities are to be excluded because they have decided they might be *too similar*. This despite, as I say, the argument being (at the very least) about prioritising chasing independence more quickly or not (and there may well be other distinctions in how the new parties want an indy Scotland to look but we don’t know in all cases yet).
Also prejudging whether the list parties have have different enough policy platforms before they release them is preposterous. I know ISP has released theirs, of course, and they plainly disagree on some SNP policies so….
Liz @ 11.18 – They may have ditched the idea of a new Act of Union but they still appear to be looking at legislation which would block the Scottish Parliament from holding an independence referendum without 70% support in the UK as a whole. I recognise that the SNP feel that bold action from the Scottish Parliament may legitimise action against Holyrood by Westminster but I think that that reticence has backfired now anyway as the Holywood is stripped of some of its powers.
You’re right, they could have made more of independence supporters online and podcasts etc.
On the issue raised in the Rev’s post. The other parties need to have policies they put to the electorate at election time. People then vote on these choices. I think that’s how it works. How, if people don’t vote for them or their policies, is that the SNP’s fault?
On another party being needed to challenge this hegemony, those of you who are appalled by this undemocratic situation. Start one.
How’s the Wings List party coming along?
Until then it’s all piss and wind, much like this site has become recently.
Johnny
I add my own opinion here.
Or are you a power hungry STURGEONITE who will seek to even deny me that.
You Sturgeonites are getting worse
@Liz g
I know you have a point about SNP MP’s at Westminster but if it is not willing to pay any attention to a mandate from Scotland how do we impress on them our non acceptance. Just now they see us vote and say you are taking part in UK democracy where they can over rule even 100% SNP MP’s from Scotland (I’m talking of spoiling papers, not refusing to vote).
The alternative is not to take part in their definition of democracy. The other is for the SNP not to take their seats in Westminster, these are extreme options but if the opposite is stasis, then what?
Alum Smith would cry his eyes out if he lost his job he’s such a man bitch.
Katharine:
Erm, I might have imagined this but at least one party has been formed and another looks pretty much nailed on to be?
@Ian Brotherhood says:
15 July, 2020 at 11:12 am
“Some would go further and suggest that the SNP heid yins have shown a serious lack of discipline by allowing certain members to treat the movement with contempt and bring the party itself into disrepute.”
Mhairi Black should have been kicked out following the fallout over the primary school visit. Not for the visit itself – that did merit a kick up the arse – but for her refusal to apologise and her language on Twitter.
If I were employed by HMG and worked out of 77th Brigade HQ I would say ,pretty much,my work on this site is done. Can I please go on holiday to Benidorm?
The SNP have lost my Westminster vote. I couldn’t vote for a politician -Shepherd- who voted our rights and freedoms out of existence with no question or debate. Politically homeless.
Dogwhistle please explain.
Under the current direction Scottish nationalism is morphing into the dog fruitlessly chasing its own tail.
It requires an authority figure to shout ‘stop’.
Will such a figure step forward from the ranks with the initiative and self-assurance to challenge the commanders?
Bailey @ 11.59
Where I’m more coming from is the Scottish Government have to be careful no to give the Westminster PM an excuse to say that ..
“with regret I will have no option but to take steps to curb the Scottish Parliament, because, despite of how much the Scottish People actually wanted the parliament to work,the rouge government within it persists in acting illegally beyond its powers,and the people of Scotland want above all else the law to be respected. It is my duty to the people of Scotland to ensure that the lads of this country are up held”.
We both know there are many in Scotland who would support that, the Media will portray it as righteous and more to the point the court’s would confirm that Holyrood was overstepping it’s legal competence!
Yes Westminster is indeed coming for Holyroods power’s but they don’t get to blame Holyrood for it and that’s the big difference . Westminster have to own it!
Good to see James Kelly MSP getting upset about a list party, ‘it is trying to undermine democracy’. That’s a bit strange because he didn’t seem to have the same concern when a British Nationalist party stood at the last Scottish elections only in the list seats, in fact his leader at the time inferred we should vote for them before the SNP.
I thought that was the whole point of the list vote, so small parties that didn’t have enough concentrated support could have a place in the parliament.
Hi Johnny,
Yes I know, but for a different purpose. I hugely support that notion and will campaign for whomsoever can prevail in my area.
They will not contest constituency seats and cannot form a government, which the post was about, alternative government.
An alternative government in waiting needs to present alternative policies that attract a majority. So Labour, Conservative, LibDem and Green parties need to present these alternatives to us. Then we choose.
Remember in the first years of Holyrood, Labour and Libdems ruled together until I think 2007. So it’s not inevitable for them never to be able to rule again, is it?
I think the Rev outlines why it’s currently unlikely, but frankly that’s their problem.
unionists on twitter getting very upset about indy list parties lol
Hootsmon: ‘SNP former deputy leader warns First Minister’. Yawn.
Hi again Katharine, I don’t think the post was about an alternative government at all. It was about having a decent opposition. Some commenters then tried to pretend they thought Stu was hoping for the unionist parties to revive to provide this when the implicit thrust of the article is that a “new force” should do so and, I think we can all imagine, that this should be a pro-independence one.
I can see what you are saying about the fact that the current proposed parties are only list parties but I don’t think this means they couldn’t be the main opposition (even if the fact they aren’t standing on the list mitigates against their chances of this, even from the simple maths that there are 73 seats they just cannot win as they would not be contesting them).
Jfngw @ 12.05
Well… how we impress the mandate is a problem,I agree,but the Westminster MPs have unlike the Holyrood MSPs a seat in the parliament that can’t be closed or neutered .
The parliament that has all the leavers of power and the parliament that has reserved to itself the Constitution/Treaty of Union……If I had to choose which group to loose for too many reasons to list here it would be the Holyrood group not the Westminster one.
The Westminster group could do much more to move Scotland forwards and they need to be released from or reject the SNP party line, and I don’t mean a split in the SNP,I mean being the group across the SNP that focus only on Indy.
Holyrood has to actually govern for Scotland the Westminster MPs don’t have to Govern for anywhere and they have rights and powers down there that they are not using.
Yes after the 2015 election their commitment was to take part in the UK Parliament on Scotland’s behalf,but, as soon as that Brexit vote came in the goal posts changed.
Their instruction from Scotland was no Brexit for Scotland and their 2019 instructions were for a referendum…
They should be doing everything in their power to achieve it.
That parliament should not be able to function till they get their way.
Not forgetting “their way” is only a bloody vote to address the difference between the Indy and Brexit results in Scotland,it’s no that outrageous an ask!
I’d say that..
What is outrageous is to suggest that we leave Scotland again without any ( Scotland only )representatives in the Westminster Parliament…which also leaves Holyroods back and Scotland even more exposed .
“Good to see James Kelly MSP getting upset about a list party, ‘it is trying to undermine democracy’.”
Fight fire with fire. The answer to anyone spouting this pish about gaming the system should be that the ISP (or whoever) are standing simply to hold the SNP to account as the current opposition are not up to it.
Who knows, maybe there’d be a few Lab+ISP, or Tory+ISP voters 🙂
Kenny Farquarson getting upset by ‘nationalist cheats’. Comedy gold.
“unionists on twitter getting very upset about indy list parties lol”…
Not half… That boy Farquharson from the Times was spouting fire in his article.
Can you imagine how they’d react, not to a couple of small Indy parties, but to a Wings/AS party…. I’d imagine Klaxon Carlaw would have a seizure….
The fact is that a serious list party that explicitly opposed GRA reform would gain at least some unionist votes. Wouldn’t convert them to Yesses in the long term, but it would give them an option to vote for other than the Tories at a time when the mainstream opposition are TWAW-ing hard.
Bailey
The SNP’s actions indicates they have become part of British constitutionalism. So I’d suggest their legal approach to Scotland’s legal emancipation, is insufficiently informed, inappropriately grounded, blind to human rights, and so is unlikely to protect Scotland from cultural subjugation by authoritarian English Torydum. I’m not actually sure they understand the law, or whether they are simply following their constitutional conditioning.
They’ve done a good job of paddling us up shit creek though.
The World Explored, the World Suffered: A Philosophical History of Psychology, Cognition, Emotion, Consciousness, and Action (Volume 3): Hannah Arendt – The pragmatic Existentialist (Aristotle, Kant, Hegel–Globalisation and Cosmopolitanism.)
http://michaelrdjames.org/the-world-explored-the-world-suffered-a-philosophical-history-of-psychology-cognition-emotion-consciousness-and-actionvolume-3-hannah-arendt-the-pragmatic-existentialist/
@Liz g
Possibly my exasperation is over-taking my logic at times, I think this is true for many independence supporters.
The 2015 election cannot be taken into account, the SNP did not campaign on independence and I suspect they were apprehensive their vote would collapse after losing the referendum. It was survival campaign that worked better than even they thought it could.
What is needed is the independence vote to be greater than 50% in an election, at that point any WM refusal is democratically unsustainable. Better if this happened at WM as the people of Scotland has then clearly rejected its authority in its constitutional centre, unfortunately that is some time off.
The plus point is Boris Johnson is a gambler and could believe he can win, he could then add Cromwell to his Churchill imagined persona.
There’s little chance of the Unionist opposition uniting.
How would the BBC cope with Scottish political debate that wasn’t the current fair and objective 3 v 1 model?
ian mhor says:15 July, 2020 at 12:40 am
‘For the benefit of any doubt…’
Both your posts were very clearly written and I agree with what you’ve said. The SNP has been a good government for the majority of the time they’ve been in office, even people who don’t remember so far back as you can see that. Most of their officials genuinely try to make the country a better place and we’re in a better place now for having them. It has changed the landscape and the expectation of what we can be. I agree entirely with that.
I remember my mother talking about the supposedly very cheap gas we were meant to get and broken promises after. She told me my grandmother had grown up in slums and remembered and feared ‘the poorhouse’ well into her very old age. She voted for a parliament in 79 and to my shame afterwards, when she talked of that time, I remember saying to her that our own parliament was one thing but independence is another thing entirely. Having studied history and economic history at higher and being young and stupid I tried to explain to my, as I thought at the time, unsophisticated mother that independence might not be viable. She didn’t live to see me vote yes and get the last laugh. Thanks for your post, it was a salutary reminder.
So two British Chinook helicopters and a huge British military plane from English bases touched down at Glasgow and Prestwick airports yesterday. Its claimed they were just refueling.
The Workers Party of Britain, Galloway will keep trying as long as it pays well lol
Colin Alexander @ 3.53 from the next thread
No I said nothing of the kind.
I said the MPs are not held by the framework that Holyrood is and therefore not as at risk of bringing down Westministers censure upon Holyrood.
That if Westminster are to act against Holyrood they’d need to our own it.
That they could exercise their rights and powers within Westminster not that they could out vote it.
And
That those MPs were free to agitate and Campaign for Independence much more than the Holyrood MSPs.
As to having to choose of course I want to keep the representatives of Scotland that can ultimately walk away from the Treaty Of Union and definitely don’t want to clear those seats for the British Nationalists ….where you get that I endorse the rancid British system from that is bizarre…
Yes Galloway is a chancer
“But the stark reality is that Scotland is now in most meaningful senses and for the foreseeable future a one-party state.“
Oh, come on— that hoary old unionist crap? Did you call it a one oarty state when Labour was UK government, Holyrood government and held most of Scotland’s councils?
It makes me nervous that loads of Labourites turfed out by Miliband’s sleaze axeman got a soft landing and candidacy in the SNP instead of having to work their way up: it worried me because Labour became sleazy by being a sure path to election for any sort of lazy, greedy idiot who could mouth the right sentiments. And it worries me that with such a lot of support the SNP is in danger of going the same way — attracting opportunists rather than people with normal integrity.
But “one party state“ is ludicrous hyperbole, as well as an insult to people who do live in one-party states. The SNP is if anything even more hated by the mainstream UK media than in the past. In Holyrood we have a more or less proportionate representation. AND WE CAN VOTE FOR ANY PARTY OR NONE.
But to take your complaint for what it really is: Scotland is ruled by Tories in London and has a mix of cross-party coalitions at local Council level. So what is your “one party state” complaint really? It’s that people are freely voting for one party.
In my large family, one sister was our parents’ clear favourite. We called her the Girl from the Golden City; it happened that she was amiable, smart, a worker, and genuinely into the things our parents approved of. Being the golden child wasn’t some fiendish plot of hers. That was down to her parents, not her. The SNP represents the vote of Scotland, like it or lump it: but don’t pretend that its Holyrood majority is any way less than a legitimate reflection of people’s wishes.
It would be good to see more pro-independence parties, but to start one just because you’re peeved at the strategy decisions of the one that is most successful, is not only dumb and arrogant, it’s selfish.
PS. I never joined any political party.
“It would be good to see more pro-independence parties, but to start one just because you’re peeved at the strategy decisions of the one that is most successful, is not only dumb and arrogant, it’s selfish.”
Really struggling to imagine why ELSE anyone would ever start a political party.
Alex Salmond we need you. This government is far to left wing. Their new hate crime bill puts shackles on free thought and free speech and they can do so totally unopposed. In fact, aided and abetted.
Come back and drive this nonsense out of the parliament.
I’m seriously having major doubts about my sport for independence if this is the type of shit it leads to.
NS had a really impeccable yesser pedigree from a very young age. Was a real zealot going to SNP youth camps etc from no age. Chose SNP when it was a really bad career move etc. Question is, is she just a chronic all ducks in row type nervous ninny or has she been got at by the British state? What are the possible secrets or weaknesses that could have exposed her to being controlled? She doesnt strike me as anyone who would ever be out of control. Obviously this is totally hypothetical and I have no proof, evidence or knowledge. but the only angle I can think of is she (for reasons unknown as it is the 21st century) is covering up her sexuality. Still would seem very odd in this century. She has had other boyfriends and well she is married so maybe this is just grasping at straws. Only other thing I can think of is the dodgy manderins around her have some knowledge of something illegal or career threatening on her. I suspect, contrary to what a lot think, she may have been caught out by trying to help Eck contrary to rules and made herself controllable. There is definitely something odd going on and its hard to square it with NS’s background.
Sorry but one party state? The worlds first one party state with a minority government. The really dodgy system is WM where not much more than a third of the popular vote is enough to give you a majority in WM if its distributed geographically in an advantageous way in the marginals. One party absolute majorities are the norm in WM. Think there has been 9 in the last 11 GEs.