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The Beaten Surrender

Posted on July 13, 2020 by

No comment needed, really.

Sooner or later, you have to stop screaming that anyone pointing out what’s happening is an MI5 plant or a secret Unionist (or in the case of some of the people who replied to Craig Murray yesterday, simply flat-out denying that the First Minister said what she actually said), and either just accept the complete abandonment of the Yes movement by the current SNP leadership or do something about it.

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    414 to “The Beaten Surrender”

    1. Tom Halliday says:

      England is going to be in a cycle of never ending turmoil, if the current leadership don’t grasp that thorny thistle and accept there is no perfect time to fire the indy gun, we will still be discussing this in 2040.

    2. Dave M says:

      The SNP leadership needs to stop wasting everyone’s time.

    3. Patricia Spencer says:

      It’s distressing that folk continue to actually believe the SNP will ‘deliver’ Independence. Lets face it we have all been part of an ongoing, very large cohort in social engineering research!

    4. Sharny Dubs says:

      Civil disobedience is our best bet IMO.

      But do we have the will?

    5. Martha Chisholm says:

      I feel like I’ve been mugged by the SNP

    6. Golfnut says:

      The Internal market bill will almost entirely eradicate any influence or decision making ability regarding the economic recovery of Scotland by the Scottish Government. I’m pretty certain the FM new that when she replied to the question.

    7. Ryan Mac says:

      This is why I ended my SNP membership.

    8. Breastplate says:

      But Rev,
      If we ask Boris one more time but with added brown nosing, he will have no choice whatsoever but to say yes to everything.
      It’s quite simple really, the equation would be;
      More pathetic actions = Fantastic results

    9. P says:

      Yes the so called economic legacy is new – that should keep Indy well away for how many years?
      Is everyone now starting to see how this faux version of SNP Is not the party led by Alex in 2014?

    10. Johnny says:


      If someone capable steps up and this pattern continues, there *will* be a political vacuum for the new party to occupy.

      Folk need to get past the hang up of obsessing about electoral percentages on the list.

      Vote on principle.

      If you get to May 2021 and are unhappy with the pace that SNP are pursuing independence, vote for someone advocating the pace be picked up on the list.

      If you’re happy with the pace they are pursuing it, good for you, just vote SNP twice.

      Stop obsessing over maths and seeing it as two entities which would be doing the same thing.

      It’d be one going so slowly as to make you wonder if they were going at all, and another urging action.

      Decide which you want and make your choice from there.

      You will have people try to tell you why what you want can’t work when you want it to and must work to their pace, including suggestions that “support isn’t there yet”, but stick to demanding what you want. If you don’t vote for urgency, you certainly won’t get urgency. Doing otherwise will only act as “justification” for more “go slow” because “people rejected urgency”.

    11. Breeks says:

      Independence was difficult enough when there was only one government we had to overthrow.

    12. liz says:

      Well said Breeks.

    13. FiferJP says:

      We’re going to have to accept that the current lot – maybe all of Scotland? – hasn’t got what it takes. Take a look at the evidence –

      Wishart wanting the EU to do referendum
      Sturgeon waiting on circumstances changing
      Various MPs waiting on polls being in their favour over a longer period

      All of them relying on others or outside influences, not one willing to rely on themselves and their own ability – the point of independence.

      Let’s hope the younger generation have more bottle – and more ability.

    14. G H Graham says:

      Been saying this for the last several years; Sturgeon has no deep interest in independence, no more than Murrell has.

      Why would they risk all that they have built for themselves; two fat salaries, perks, expenses, a cosy power base & a carefully crafted relationship with the largely pro BritNat Scottish establishment?

      Apart from the fruitcake gender self ID legislation, they have no radical ideas or if they do, have no intention of exercising them. Land reform? Nope. Investment bank? Nope. Westminster walkouts? Nope. Broadcast the glaring differences in healthcare outcomes between NHS England & NHS Scotland, especially during this Covid pandemic? Nope.

      It’s as if they don’t want to really press any hot buttons inside Whitehall & Downing Street, isn’t it?

      Instead, we have a complacent, arrogant executive erasing its own history while it stood aside to permit one of their most effective past leaders stand in the dock, falsely accused by the very same people they have surrounded themselves with.

      You have to hand it to Murrell & Sturgeon though; pulling the wool over the eyes of those desperate for independence is quite the trick.

      Thankfully, not everyone watching their phony dog & pony show is a fucking idiot.

    15. Armitage Shanks says:

      Patricia Spencer says:
      13 July, 2020 at 12:03 pm
      It’s distressing that folk continue to actually believe the SNP will ‘deliver’ Independence. Lets face it we have all been part of an ongoing, very large cohort in social engineering research!

      Hi Patricia,
      Unfortunately I think its all straight forward social engineering/manipulation. Its seems proven science now, and it works.
      Not fair to just single out the SNP it appears they’re all in it together. Depressing innit? Edward Bernays has a lot to answer for.

    16. Capella says:

      That’s one way of putting it. OTOH the best way of dealing with the undoubted economic legacy would be to remain in the EU.

      The George Kerevan article certainly summarises the anti-Sturgeon argument. However, citing 4 members of committees who are industry representatives as evidence of a shift to the right is a bit thin. Alex Salmond himself worked for the Royal Bank of Scotland. Does he represent the Tartan Tories, the beloved smear of the Red Tories?

      Sooner or later people are going to have to stop screaming Tartan Tory every time Nicola Sturgeon does well in a BBC interview.

    17. Ian Brotherhood says:

      Someone has to get the whole ‘civil disobedience/non-violent protest’ show on the road.

      What option is there now?

      Give up completely?

    18. Republicofscotland says:


      We don’t need to overthrow anybody, we just need to persuade Sturgeon that we need independence sooner than later.

      However I’m sure she knows that, the question is will she act on it? if not then it’s her that needs replacing with someone who will, act on it not the entire government.

      A new Salmond party, or a credible challenge from within the SNP might be the impetus we need. Right now though polls suggest Sturgeons running high, if she kicks independence into the long grass yet again, that might be a problem for the Yes movement.

    19. Newburghgowfer says:

      UK Debt 2 trillion plus. Well the Scottish No to Indy Party are going to wait until Scotlands economy is back in good shape.
      Well don’t they tell us they don’t have the economic levers to run the economy so that means in real terms perpetual stooges at Westminster on the Gravy train telling us they want Independence whilst taking us for mugs !! And people called unionist supporters stupid ?

    20. Robert Louis says:

      The sense of betrayal by the SNP leadership and NS, cuts deep.

      If ever, in the last three hundred years, there was a wide open goal for independence, it is right now (not May next year). And what is NS doing? Dithering, procrastinating, using ANY available reason or excuse to ensure Scotland does not even try to become independent. ‘oh London winnae let us’. Utterly utterly pathetic. You don’t ask for independence, you assert independence.

      Nicola Sturgeon is either woefully out of touch regarding the mood in Scotland, or she really does not want independence. With each passing day, and each of her awful, excuse filled interviews, it becomes clear, it is the latter. She knows it will soon be the recess, so yet again everything kicked into the long grass. Endless tweets about what book she is reading, while Scotland is thrown to the mercy of a rabid, English supremacist London government. Cummings and his murderous chums won’t be taking a ‘recess’. Not even a token effort to stand up for Scotland and our place in the EU.

      She needs to go, and so does Mr. Murrell.

      The clock is ticking louder ever single day. Their is no time to waste, we simply must push for indy ASAP, otherwise their will be no parliament and NO Scotland left to rescue. Do you seriously think sociopath -in – chief, Dominic ‘let them die’ Cummings won’t destroy devolution? It’s pretty obvious that is EXACTLY what is planned.

      Meanwhile, the SNP witter on about how nasty Westminster is, and how they can get yet another mandate in an election sometime next year, and then they really, really, really promise they will think about possibly asking London’s permission to hold a referendum, sometime in 2025.

      And here’s the thing, if the SNP right now, today, called an independence referendum, it would stop the power grab and brexit in its tracks. But they won’t, because they have all got very, very comfortable in their extremely well paid careers, administering England’s brexit upon Scotland.

      A right parcel of rogues.

    21. Sensibledave says:

      … I think it means what I have been telling you all for some time. Ms Sturgeon does not believe she can win indyref2 in the near future. I believe that she fears “Project Fear 2” would have so much ammunition with CV19, economic crisis, unemployment, borrowing,currency, Brexit, EU, etc, that there is too much for PF2 to use to get a “no” again … which would remove the option of a winnable indyref for a long time.

      Have you considered that being “Leader” requires the ability to make tough, difficult and unpalletable decisions – for the greater good? If indyref2 was held and lost, that would be it for 10/15 years at least.

      I think it is highly likely that she is desprately frustrated by “events” but she still has her eyes on the prize and is trying to “walk the line” between hard nosed pragmatism and herioc failure.

    22. Shug says:

      Have to say I noticed her choice of words to
      Looks like 2nd vote for wings is a good move
      With brexit at the end of the year the vote is only going one way and the sooner we vote the better. Westminster will soon be in a poition to over rule anything holyrood do

    23. Papko says:

      “Sooner or later, you have to stop screaming that anyone pointing out what’s happening is an MI5 plant or a secret Unionist”

      Vintage analysis Rev, dare I say the Yes movement has this coming to them, they have been the refuge of the “persecution complex” for too long.

      Now their own paranoia is working against them, so keen to spot a MI5 plant, yet completely oblivious to their own “folk” doing it.

    24. Robert Louis says:

      Breeks at 1220pm,

      Bravo. Quote of the year.

    25. Robert Louis says:

      Interesting to note the unionist troll, on here defending NS. I think that says everything we need to know.

    26. PhilM says:

      @Breeks 12.20pm
      Bravo! for the most succinct summary of where the independence movement finds itself. It also sums up the gist of George Kerevan’s recent article.
      If the route to independence lies in the SNP co-opting the Scottish elites, then the necessity for re-instituting self-government is totally lost.
      ‘Meet the new boss, same as the old boss”.
      Do we really want the next generation of Scots to be the same old estate flunkies, country spa servants, casino eye-candy, the safari park carrion, or the tim’rous beasties who’ve to flit at the whim o’ the folk in the big hoose?
      Fuck that!

    27. Beaker says:

      @Sharny Dubs says:
      13 July, 2020 at 12:03 pm
      “Civil disobedience is our best bet IMO.”

      @Ian Brotherhood says:
      13 July, 2020 at 12:33 pm
      “Someone has to get the whole ‘civil disobedience/non-violent protest’ show on the road.”

      Wrong. Very, very wrong. Civil disobedience will play right into the hands of Westminster and the media. Added to that it will probably piss off a lot of people in Scotland.

      Civil disobedience will be accompanied by violence, no matter how well organised things are. It won’t even be “unionist plants” – look at what happened in London and Manchester. Local gangs use things as an excuse to riot and loot.

      It won’t work and it is a fucking stupid and dangerous idea to even consider it.

    28. ahundredthidiot says:

      as a Ex MI5 agent and ultra unionist – I think our Ms Sturgeon played a blinder…….the way she casually slipped that in there…….masterful.

    29. Papko says:

      Brilliant stuff
      “Independence was difficult enough when there was only one government we had to overthrow.”

      Devolution is not so much a road to Independence as a strengthening the Union.
      Is there any other reason why the FM is the best paid politician in Europe ?

    30. susan says:

      Thoroughly depressing but true Stu, you don’t shy away from bad omens, unlike some rose tinted others.

    31. Scozzie says:

      That interview was very telling indeed.

      Twice NS said her she was entirely focused on COVID-19 and the economic legacy (6 months out from a more than likely no deal Brexit and 10 months out of an HR election). No mention of either.

      That strikes me as either purposefully ignoring other potentially catastrophic political issues on the horizon or incapable of handling more that one national risk at at time.

      She suggested that people were responding positively to autonomous decision making by Scotland due to COVID-19. Yes, support for independence is up; but I’m unconvinced on the autonomous decision making part.

      NS seems largely in lock-step with the rest of the UK albeit perhaps a couple of weeks behind England in relaxing restrictions. True autonomous decision making would see Scotland close the border given that England’s cases are worryingly high. Will she do that, hell no.

      Take Australia as a comparison, all the Australian states closed their borders and have now opened up except to Victoria (averaging 200 daily cases in the last week). That’s autonomous decision making.

      I don’t understand why she doesn’t use the political capital that COVID-19 presents, to hammer home to the population how constrained we are by not being able to fully make our own decisions….everything from PPE, quarantining international arrivals, economic stimulus, borders and more. Any criticisms seem woefully weak and never the ‘I’ word uttered.

      The forecast –
      – No chance of a referendum before being extracted from the EU against our will (election manifesto dumped).
      – A weak challenge to the ‘internal market’ power grab but nothing that will challenge the constitutional status quo (basically a roll over).
      – Assuming HR still exists in May 2021, they’ll fight the election on seeking yet another mandate.

      How the electorate respond to that is anyone’s guess. I just hope there’s a List Party with Alex Salmond fronting it as we need a true independence warrior to force the hand of the SNP to deliver.

    32. carjamtic says:

      There is a collective, global (particularly in SW1) failing of (how best to phrase this ? ) the political processes or if you like “computer programmes” ,we have known this for such a long time, that is why we tried and are still trying to reboot the system, to correct it, to re-humanise it.

      Disappointed to recognise the same failings of current SNP, all the microprocessors and hardware are still in place and are working correctly (Human Yessers).

      This programme or software has been breached or hacked so many times now, we need multiple patches, to get it back on track or failing that replace it.

      Calling Occupants of the Scottish Parliament Building, Holyrood,we are your friends.


    33. Rm says:

      Once this virus thing is cleared up won’t be that long now, if all the pro independence hubs get together, we could maybe form a new party which for a start try for the list vote and it should get the ok from the SNP if they don’t their not interested in independence, the we would know they just want to be in power for salary, pension and the hidden agenda which lots of people are starting to think is to keep us in the union, why didn’t they fight against brexit just for Scotland, wrong people in charge, they sit down in Westminster with all this pomp and lots of them seem to enjoy it, laughing, joking, and as time goes on all of Scotland is getting sold to big business all round the world, we’re being sold to the highest bidder with no say in the matter, what’s the matter with the Scots, it’s embarrassing.

    34. Garrion says:

      As I said, time to burn it all down.

    35. Ron Maclean says:

      If dealing with coronavirus and its economic legacy represents the limits of Nicola Sturgeon’s ambition shouldn’t she stand down as leader of the SNP.

    36. Scozzie says:

      Ian Brotherghood ” 12.33pm
      Thing is, sadly the civil disobedience thing needs to be aimed at Bute House not WM (right now). It’s the Scottish Government we need to front up to.
      Breeks is right, it’s not just one government we need to over-throw.

    37. Andrew Parker says:

      I get the point about delay, and I was fervently arguing for Indyref2 through Brexit so we’d be on a fully parallel track by now.

      But I think this might be simpler: the Scottish people have dragged their sorry feet on this, have obfuscated, ignored and denied the urgent problem staring them in the face. Now there is a majority it might just be turned into a readiness for action. But, frankly, I blame the SNP less and less on this. Scotland needs to have a fit of dignity and show some initiative.

    38. Bob Mack says:

      The more things change the more they stay the same.

      It is now fairly obvious to everyone that either the SNP do not believe in independence, or they are sure they cannot win. Those at present are the only viable reasons for this inaction.

      Scotland’s future now rests in the hands of the people, who can make a different route map towards Indy. This may well be in the form of a more focused party, which sadly has to start from scratch.

      Very very disappointing.

    39. Ian says:

      The economic legacy of Covid will likely be utterly swamped by the economic legacy of Brexit. Will need something radical to avoid that. Bet that Johnson’s dad won’t be the only one scrambling to get EU residency before that door closes at the end of the year.

    40. David says:

      I have a memory of a SNP article by a high heid yin that stated that it would be advantageous to the cause of independence to try to separate from a wealthy, stable UK! Just cant remember who said it! Wonder if that’s still the thought?

    41. J Galt says:

      This morning I received a very prompt reply to my email resigning from the SNP confirming my removal from the member list for which I thank the person who emailed me.

      My immediate reason for resignation was the enthusiastic participation of the the FM and SG in what I see as an increasingly sinister social engineering and economic reset event.

      However the deep seated reasons were the rank rotten treatment of the former leader of the SNP by what can only be described as dishonourable persons and the increasing comfortableness of the SNP within the devolution arrangements and at Westminster.

      It is becoming clearer by the day that the function of Nicola Sturgeon and indeed Boris Johnson are to nurse this crisis along against the interests of ordinary people, they are now both “enemies of the people” in my view.

      Barring radical change at the top of the SNP and a complete change of direction in policy I don’t even see me voting at all next year far less re-joining the party.

      And I won’t be harming the cause of independence because at the moment, despite the “just round the corner” fantasies of those who contribute to other blogs, the SNP, as confirmed above, under Nicola Sturgeon, poses no danger to the British State.

    42. Ron Preedy says:


      Angela Merkel has roughly €350,000 p. a.

      A trifle more.

      And there are others. Why do people blurt out these things without a quick google search?

    43. Confused says:

      the people who are most conservative in any society are those who have been elevated ONE RUNG off the thronging hordes, for they will do anything to preserve their meagre gains.

      – for a lot of SNP types, Holyrood/Westminster is “the bigtime”, its like showbiz, interviews on the telly an that …

      but its “squeaky bum time” for independence, piss or get off the pot, you got to make a move, but what is there to gain for these folks. Not much

      – a bitter, desperate, no holds barred struggle against the UK deep state, which will give Scotland up as easily as a rottweiler surrenders a bone; this is a fight you could well lose, then Holyrood gets padlocked and turned into an AirBnB


      – you actually win, by some miracle, then its down to “nation building” – huge, deep decisions, and all against the sinister backdrop of a hostile southern neighbour

      The SNP just – stick on 18; and there will always be some excuse for not doing anything covid, brexit, hate crimes, tranny stuff, climate change again, antiracism, etc .. and now “fixing the economy” (- the entire world economy is a shambles)

    44. Tinto Chiel says:

      Yep, looks like the FM should add “The Union: Safe in My Hands” on a scroller for her wee lectern.

      That should increase her personal popularity further with No voters.

    45. Allium says:

      She used to talk a much better game than this. She had some sort of strange (emotional? intellectual?) wobble, approx. 2 years ago, and has never really recovered from it, although she covers it up really well. I wonder if she knows her time is up as leader. She has certainly stopped leading, the groundhog day Covid press-cons/showreels for a UN job notwithstanding. If Mackay had still been in place I think an unopposed succession would already be lined up, and she’d be off to pastures new very shortly.

    46. liz says:

      Still so many on twitter, saying hold, hold.
      I’m starting to mute loads of these so called indy supporters or I’ll start swearing at them

    47. Socrates MacSporran says:

      I think Nicola Sturgeon is still committed to Independence. However, given the number of “late converts” or “careerists” who have joined the SNP and then managed to get into positions of influence, between 2014 and now, I think she has become infected with the “now is not the time” faction in the upper echelons of the party.

      Why risk a nice cushy number as an SNP apparatchik – where the main object is to safeguard your own job, by pushing for an Independence referendum?

      Why rock the boat, when it might lead to England playing hard-ball and closing down Holyrood and the Scottish Government?

      No, better to put as many road-blocks to Independence in place as you can.

      We really need someone inside the SNP to “go rogue” and really stir things up. Time, however, is not on that person’s side to turn things around.

      We have only just got to the stage of successive opinion polls showing a majority in support of Independence, but, we have long had an even-bigger majority in support of continuing to be inside the EU – that can now only be achieved by going Independent.

      So, what is stopping us – other than a lack of ambition within the SNP’s upper reaches?

      Time to make that SNP Civil War real – and bring about the necessary change.

    48. liz says:

      @Allium fair point. Maybe she’s waiting for Angus Robertson to get elected, then he would be a shoe in.

      I know Alex S said he’d wait till after the Holyrood investigation before saying anything about his future political position but I hope he’ll be supporting others behind the scenes now.

      PS Derek McKay is still only suspended, he could come back

    49. Papko says:



      Angela Merkel has roughly €350,000 p. a.

      A trifle more. without a quick google search?”

      I tried, do you have a link?

      Admittedly Merkel is in charge of 80 million and the largest economy in Europe.

      Our FM has 5 million folk and 18% of Scotland’s economy is run by Holyrood.

      A list of well paid regional councilors in Europe may be more apposite.

    50. Geordie says:

      So Stuart, apart from constantly complaining and sniping from the edges, what’s your solution? What do we do when the SNP are our only current option for democratically attained Independence? Seriously, if you’ve got an answer I’m all ears. And please dont say about forming a WoS party because even someone like me who has valued and supported your media work will never vote for you or a party run by you. You’re too toxic, divisive and unelectable.

    51. Daisy Walker says:

      We have a very powerful democratic opportunity at the next Holyrood election.

      The 2 vote d’honte system allows for the list vote.

      It means people don’t have to throw the baby out with the bathwater, they can express loyalty to the SNP with vote 1, and not put all their apples in the same basket with their second vote.

      Expect much increased noise about splitting the vote by SNP ‘wheesht for indy’ types.

      Re Nicola and her leadership team – the British establishment were always going to nobble. It was always a when not an if.

      It would be a waste of energy to get angry at this, or try to evidence it. Their methods are bribery and corruption and when that fails, outright threats to loved ones. I assume the latter, and for that reason we have a duty to protect them, leave them standing and move the argument around them.

      Whether it is a new party, or local individuals with common alliance – or indeed both (my preference – as it makes it harder for MSM to hit) – the issue now is saving Scotland, saving Holyrood, saving lives. Now we must.

    52. Scozzie says:

      Liz @1.49pm
      I hope you don’t mean Angus Robertson as a shoe in for leader. He’s no more for independence than Nicola is.

    53. liz says:

      @Geordie, have you been deaf, dumb and blind to the numerous suggestions from Joanna Cherry, Craig Murray and our very own Breeks?

      I would also suggest you read the BLC at the National several highly informed people talking about our Claim of Right, the continuous breaking of the ToU by WM, sovereignty of the people.

      Or are you just stirring it.

    54. Gullane No 4 says:

      Oh great, let’s start fighting amongst ourselves again, following the Floden Field strategy.
      Snatching defeat in the face of victory once again.

    55. liz says:

      @Scozzie I do, hence why NS is supporting him and trying to prevent Joanna Cherry from being selected by placing obstacles in her way.

      I think we have to accept NS does not want independence, why? I don’t know.
      I don’t believe she was always like that but I think the job is too much for her.

    56. Capella says:

      Calls for the people of Scotland to unite against Westminster power grab. From Nicola Sturgeon and Ian Blackford:

      “Everyone in Scotland should be concerned at what the UK Govt is doing, put bluntly it is undermining our Parliament which was established by popular sovereignty. The response is simple to protect our parliament, to protect us from this type of attack we have to become independent.
      “We will take this on. I call on those who live in Scotland to recognise our right to choose our future. The election result in 2019 and ongoing support in the polls indicate where the mood of Scotland is. Stay united, we will win our right to choose and secure our future.”

    57. Effijy says:

      ahundredthidiot says:
      13 July, 2020 at 12:45 pm
      as a Ex MI5 agent and ultra unionist – I think our Ms Sturgeon played a blinder…….the way she casually slipped that in there…….masterful

      There are pieces of MDF better qualified than you to be an agent!

    58. dakk says:

      NS’s’covid economic legacy’ comment may just come into the ‘once in a generation referendum’ category.

      It’s not written in stone.

      She also said ‘show, not tell’seems to be working, so maybe she will surprise us and show her hand at a more opportune time in the covid crisis.

    59. James Che. says:

      The solutions stairs us in face, if we want independence we do not march along streets, or blog on line.
      all independence people from all ilks must join together and march to Holyrude sign a petition on site and deliver it as a nation of people directly,
      The signed petition must say we the sovereign people of Scotland have chosen over and above any government, king or queen to declare our sovereignty, and we will stay and wait until our independence is declared by Holyrude to the nations of the world.
      No violence, no riots just us, the sovereign people of the nation of Scotland standing together as one.
      Let us play it as it is,
      We have that power.its time we choose to use it.

    60. liz says:

      Saw it @Capella. They want us to rally around them as the fiddle whist Scotland burns

    61. Scozzie says:

      Liz @ 2.05pm
      Sorry I thought you were advocating for him as leader – my misunderstanding.

    62. Morgatron says:

      I’m depressed out of my tiny mind. If there is no significant move to Indy Ref 2 by October, mysrlf and Mrs Morgatron will after 30 years have no alternative to cease our membership of the SNP .Its a party I’ve supported through thick n thin , through what all my friends called”the wasted vote ” years. It will be with a heavy heart as I am no longer willing to be deceived.

    63. Papko says:

      “Yep, looks like the FM should add “The Union: Safe in My Hands” on a scroller for her wee lectern.

      That should increase her personal popularity further with No voters.”

      @Brilliant Tinto, dark humor seems to be the order of the day.

      Could also explain where the 54% is coming from, and may well go to 65%
      The prescient NO voters realizing that Indy is inevitable etc, aim to have some input on shaping it.
      More emphasis on modern service economy Scotland, and less on politics of the 1970’s.

      I have long argued that Workfare could be the game changer for the SNP, as its very popular amongst 2/3 rds of Scots.
      But off course electoral suicide in the YES strongholds of Dundee and Greenock.

    64. Johnny says:

      Geordie @ 1:57pm

      I’ve a feeling you’d deride any alternative as “divisive” and “unelectable”. But these two terms often actually contradict each other anyway.

      In terms of winning votes, someone/a party cannot be “divisive” by definition if they are not winning a significant section of the vote. Otherwise there’s no “division” as almost everyone agrees they’re “hopeless”.

      So by definition someone/a party which is “divisive” stands a good chance of doing something in the list system, which does not require huge percentages to get representation.

      If they don’t “divide” anything THEN they’ve proven to also be “unelectable” and not before.

    65. Scozzie says:

      Capella @ 2.13pm
      That statement is simply attempting to keep the troops onside. The majority already recognise our right to choose our future, we just need our government to have the balls to deliver – didn’t see no reference to that in their statement.

      Time for the party faithful to read between the lines and question what’s not being said.

    66. 1971Thistle says:

      Pournelle’s iron law of bureaucracy

      “In any bureaucratic organization there will be two kinds of people: those who work to further the actual goals of the organization, and those who work for the organization itself. Examples in education would be teachers who work and sacrifice to teach children, vs. union representatives who work to protect any teacher including the most incompetent.

      The Iron law states that in all cases, the second type of person will always gain control of the organization, and will always write the rules under which the organization functions.”

    67. Rev. Stuart Campbell says:

      “Independence was difficult enough when there was only one government we had to overthrow.”

      I’m calling it early – comment of the day.

    68. schrodingers cat says:

      there is no way out of the covid economic consequences. that would require wm to devolve the powers to holyrood to do so. they have already refused. it isnt even the fact that wm is now trying to stip power from holyrood and the senedd for that matter, it is the fact that we now have an english national party in power at wm who are now quite openly trying to undermine scotlands economy. promising barnett consequentials, which are then lauded by carlaw, then not even bothering to transfer the funds.

      there can never be a covid economic recovery for scotland, it isnt in wm’s interests to allow that to happen

      either way, it should be evident to all that the devolution experiment is now over.

      the status quo is no longer an option.

      the only way that scotland can recover economically from covid, is by independence

      nicola will do nothing until we are through face 3, not before the end of july, probably not returning to some semblance of normality until the schools go back.

      so sit back and enjoy your summer holidays, nothing will happen until the end of august, no matter how much wm, the msm and unionist trolls goad her into returning to politics as normal. it aint gonna happen

      you’d be better organising yer list party candidates, crowd funding their deposits etc

    69. CameronB Brodie says:

      The current leadership appear to be narrow minded, parochial, solicitors who consider themselves above the law. Scotland hasn’t only been lead up the garden path, the SG has prevented Scotland from effectively defending itself from expansionist English nationalism.

      If things don’t change, the SNP can no longer claim to be party for democracy, or a supporter of Scotland. Get it sorted and start defend Scottish culture and Scottish human rights. TA

    70. schrodingers cat says:

      face 3 = phase 3

    71. K1 says:

      And who should we replace them with?

    72. Scozzie says:

      Schrodingers Cat @ 2.31pm
      Aye well we’ll check back in with you in early September to see if NS has remembered why she and her government was elected. Hope you have some good news for us…I won’t get too excited.

    73. CameronB Brodie says:

      schrodingers cat
      You strike me as being a rather nasty, narrow-mined, and ignorant arsehole. Just the sort to give NS their unquestioning loyalty. Have you found a respect for the rule of law and public morality yet?

    74. Scozzie says:

      Rev Stuart Campbell @ 2.29pm
      Tinto Chief’s comment @ 1.39pm should get silver on the podium.
      Who’s going to take the bronze?

    75. dakk says:

      “either way, it should be evident to all that the devolution experiment is now over.

      the status quo is no longer an option.

      the only way that scotland can recover economically from covid, is by independence”

      Candidate for comment of the day already.

    76. McDuff says:

      The only way out of the financial impact of covid19 is independence.
      Sturgeon has only ever been interested in the trappings of leadership and is not remotely interested in achieving Indy.
      She had betrayed this country,no other description is more accurate.

    77. schrodingers cat says:


      a tad harsh, i dont see what is objectionable about my post. its only my opinion on what i see happening.

      this face off was always gonna happen, unavoidable.
      bojo is now forcing the issue. nicola is merely ignoring him on the grounds that cos of covid, “now is no the time” 🙂

      she is exercising her prerogative and choosing when she will turn and face him down

      it wont be long now

    78. schrodingers cat says:



    79. schrodingers cat says:

      McDuff says:
      She had betrayed this country,no other description is more accurate.
      if you say so, feel free to lead on

    80. liz says:

      @scozzie no worries

    81. schrodingers cat says:

      Scozzie says:

      Aye well we’ll check back in with you in early September to see if ……

      feel free

    82. Vivian O'Blivion says:

      Kicking the Indy can down the road and into the 2030s may be Sturgeon’s preferred option but, if so, it runs against the growing momentum.
      If we exit the pandemic with a landslide majority at Holyrood 2021 and Indy riding in the polls at 55%+, Sturgeon’s current position should be basically untenable. Faced with a bitter and irreconcilable, Fianna Fáil / Fina Gael type split in the movement, the route of least resistance is to go with the polls.
      On a personal note, politicians come and go with few leaving a lasting legacy. Leading your country to its independence is the stuff of history books, statues even.

    83. Ian McCubbin says:

      Only way to resolve an national, international, issue for a country is to be independent.
      This book tells us we have the right and shows the way.
      Justice, Legitimacy, Self-Determination Moral Foundations for International Law.
      I sent screen shot of it to SNP and NS.
      Predictably no reply.
      It seems now the new establishment in Scotland are further removing themselves from the core cause and its activitist.
      Smells like old Labour, new Labour

      I thing its now a game in their eyes

      I for one will now only support the YES Movement

      Independence when now, who knows SNP are walking past the opportunity of the perfect storm as many here are saying.
      How do we stop there acquiescence and get a declaration of Independence?

    84. schrodingers cat says:

      How do we stop there acquiescence and get a declaration of Independence?

      we turn the next holyrood election into a defacto independence plebiscite

      how else can we do this?

    85. Joe says:

      Im truly shocked. This is an unforseeable betrayal out of the blue. To think how well she disguised her intentions year, after year after year…

      I mean, even most of the EU/indy geniuses were fooled. Again – I.Am.Shocked.

    86. Ian Foulds says:

      Great comments by all. We the people need to get this ball rolling.

      Papko says:
      13 July, 2020 at 12:53 pm
      Brilliant stuff
      “Independence was difficult enough when there was only one government we had to overthrow.”

      Devolution is not so much a road to Independence as a strengthening the Union.
      Is there any other reason why the FM is the best paid politician in Europe ?‘

      Could we therefore use that situation against them and, after we sign the petition of the Scottish people (in the majority) as mentioned in a separate post, be able per Declaration of Arbroath to declare Independence

    87. Scozzie says:

      Schrodingers Cat
      Will do…mind and tell her that she supposedly leads a country not just a public health crisis. Wouldn’t want her looking like a one trick pony….oh mibbies remind her no deal Brexit is 6 months away.

    88. CameronB Brodie says:

      schrodingers cat
      I was trying to read you moral positioning from your narrative, but then you actually admitted in public you think morals are a fantasy, and that you hold the rule of law in contempt. That’s a rather dangerous constellation of beliefs, and not in the slightest compatible with liberal constitutionalism. Perhaps that’s why you appear devoted to a leader who considers herself above the law?

      The Dialogic Promise: Assessing the Normative
      Potential of Theories of Constitutional Dialogue

    89. Rm says:

      CameronB Brodie is right, when is someone with fight going to protect Scotland’s culture and human rights, can’t we get Brussels on side, with Scotland’s future potential renewable power, that’s what it’s all about, they’ve had our oil now they want the future renewables potential of Scotland which will be bigger than what the oil ever was, we can’t make the same mess again, what other country let’s another country tell them what to do, it’s beyond frustrating and embarrassment, let’s get the world on our side.

    90. schrodingers cat says:


      a bit early to be going off topic

    91. ahundredthidiot says:

      Effijy @ 14:13

      Talk about missing the point.

      Not for the first time, either.

    92. Capella says:

      One last post from The National – George Kerevan (he of the Contor article linked to above) has grudgingly acknowledged the SNPs high polling. But he feels that a working class agenda would be a better policy objective. otherwise the working class won’t vote for indy.

      Unless we offer a vision of a different Scotland – one willing to abandon the failed neoliberal model enshrined in the Growth Report – I fear the current poll lead enjoyed by the SNP will start to evaporate come next year’s recession.

    93. Mosstrooper says:

      If not here where, if not now when? if not us who?

    94. Mike d says:

      Well,unless there’s a new hand at the helm. The dream is just that.

    95. lothianlad says:

      Said it here before Stu, to the derision of the Sturgeon trolls.

      Sturgeon has NO intention of persuing Independence. She is under the controll of the British secret service who helped put her where she is!

      I’m not saying she is an MI5 spook, a double agent or a high profile firgure at MI5 HQ, what I am saying is, She, like so many high ranking officials in the SNP are under the control of the brit secret service.

      Either this is through blackmail, or bribery or both, they want payback and she will willingly comply.

      Wheres the evidence the trolls cry… its staring you in the face. NO Indy ref, a series of divisive nature denying policies, the deflection from independence campaigning, or even promotion of the word Independence in favour of stop brexit or any other non indy campaign.

      Then there is the attacks on senior Pro Independence former first minister and supporters, embroyelled with senior Unionist civil servasnts. Becoming the darling of the unionist media as they know she is the unions safest bet etc….

      The IRA were infiltrated and influenced by the british secret service for years and many in the republican movement still feel senior members are under their control, hence the change in political direction.

      Scottish independence is the Unions biggest threat. you have to be pretty dumb not to consider this as a possibilty.

      How ironic with the SNP on continually high opinion poll ratings and Independence now the favoured constitutional position, we have a FM doing her damndest to avoid even talking about Independence.

      The high opinion poll ratings by the way are down to the ineptitude of the shambolic WM government, not the tactical savvy of NS.

      Stu and Craig Murray, Thank you for highlighting this again as she and her woke brigade cannot be allowed to screw up the biggest oppertunity for Independence we have ever had!

      NS title should be changed to the Chief administrator for british rule in Scotland.

      lets get Alex back, and boot out sturgeon and her trolls!

      I’d rather listen to Craig Murray and Stu than the sturgeon supporters.

    96. CameronB Brodie says:

      “off topic”.

      It would appear all the cat has in terms of argument, is denial, avoidance, and misrepresentation. Oh, and childish insults and macho posing.

      Constitutional Justice: A Liberal Theory of the Rule of Law

    97. lothianlad says:

      @ Breeks 12.20

      How Ironic and very very true

    98. auld highlander says:

      Perhaps we should be outside Holyrood in our thousands on a Thursday at FM question time screaming at them to stop prevaricating and get the finger out.

      Maybe we should be howling at our mp’s in person to act instead of the lip service that they all seem good at. A £64,470 salary plus exps for poncing around seat warming. Life is too cosy for them.

      No action = no vote.

    99. Mike d says:

      Whichever indy party states in a manifesto,that they will use the HE as a plebiscite vote for independence. Thats who to vote for. All others should be ignored. The sands are running out the hour glass.

    100. Tannadice Boy says:

      I feel vindicated in my action to cancel my SNP membership. The power structure and culture at the top of the SNP is nigh on impossible to circumvent or even influence. Then there is the question of a replacement leader should a challenge somehow be mounted. Salmond? Yes but getting older by the month. Perhaps a few others but they are not currently in Holyrood. Game Set and Match to NS

    101. Julia Gibb says:

      One more time.

      The SNP is the Members. The have done more and given more to the Independence cause than most of the posters on here.

      The dozen Mr. Angries on here who could fix it all tomorrow yet have never once came up with a solution. They know what they don’t want but have no idea what they do want WITH a practical plan.

      This rage against the SNP that so many are convinced is Universally shared forget the actual polling data showing the opposite.

      Yes, as a Party we have a lot of work to do. However having a screaming tantrum every day and posting it on here will not deliver Independence either. Is that the cunning plan – ditch decades of hard work for the ” No Plan Option” instead fixing the Party with a solid foundation.

      CBB hit rock bottom today with his personal attack on SCat. So much for debate now!

    102. schrodingers cat says:

      @Tannadice Boy

      how do you propose to bring pressure to bear to create a leadership challenge if you have resigned your membership?

    103. Ian says:

      From 2016 – ‘39% of Tory MPs are landlords, compared with 26% of Scottish National party MPs and 22% from Labour’.

      I did wonder what some of them actually did in London.

    104. cirsium says:

      @Capella, 2.13
      Thanks for posting that link. So Mr Blackford has now given up on his clarion call “Scotland will not be dragged out of the EU” and replaced it with “we will win our right to choose and secure our own future”. We already have the right to choose since sovereignty resides with the people of Scotland. If Mr Blackford meant recognition of this right, why didn’t he say so?

      Also Ms Sturgeon saying that, rather than independence, she has to focus on dealing with the economic outcome of the epidemic when the only way we can restore our economy is to be in control of our own resources and the management of these resources.

    105. liz says:

      @Julia Gibb how many ‘Mr Angries’ on here are members?

      Also, yet again, loads of smart well educated people have given many examples of what to do, you seem to have missed all of them.

      Did you bypass Breeks every comment?

    106. jfngw says:

      If we want a plebiscite election we can have one without the SNP. There is two votes, that is obvious, but 100% of the people get to cast a vote in each. If a list party declares this is a vote for independence and achieves over 50% of the list vote then Scotland has voted for independence, it is effectively a referendum. If we don’t achieve 50% then nothing is lost, it was not SNP policy anyway.

      The drawback is of course they would still not have enough seats at Holyrood to action this, but if the SNP ignore this then they are basically finished as an independence party.

      We don’t have time to piss about now, covid or no covid Westminster is going to drive a deal with the EU that looks like no deal, we need to be in a position to determine our own future and it needs to be soon.

    107. schrodingers cat says:

      liz says:
      loads of smart well educated people have given many examples of what to do,


      really? care to tells us of these plans?

    108. schrodingers cat says:


      there is a certain truth in this, from now on, all elections are plebiscites on independence

      i still prefer the snp to fight on a manifesto declaring independence nothing less, a 50%+ support on the constituency vote would be a mandate for independence

    109. Big Bad Wull says:

      The Murrell Mafia need removed from the SNP, they have no intention of going for independence and are happy with the powers the have over the nation, to some Queen Nikki can do no wrong but along with complacent MPs who are happy at the trough of Westminster, and those who are likewise entrenched at Holyroods, and until they leave along with the Wokus Dei, we will never see an independent country of Scotland.
      Sorry but the next year is the last time I will vote SNP at Holyrood, hopefully the ISP will go from strength to strength as they to me are the party that will deliver, the SNP in its current guise are spent.
      The reason they tried to stitch up Salmond was they were feart that Alex would go for a leadership challenge, as they would have been shown as the trans Seles bunch of troughers that they are

    110. jfngw says:

      @schrodo’s cat

      It would be but I’m considering what to do if the SNP won’t go down that route. Also why is the constituency vote more important, it’s exactly the same people voting in both?

    111. schrodingers cat says:

      jfngw says:
      13 July, 2020 at 4:23 pm
      @schrodo’s cat

      It would be but I’m considering what to do if the SNP won’t go down that route. Also why is the constituency vote more important, it’s exactly the same people voting in both?

      because i believe in tactical voting on the list, to get rid of useless unionist msp’s

    112. Scozzie says:

      Let’s just remind ourselves of the final section of Alex Salmnond’s 2013 conference speech. It’s bittersweet, but still has an important message, we the people of Scotland need to make this happen – his final questions to the Scots are still very pertinent. We need to demand our government acts now for the people:

      Alex Salmond –
      We seek a country with a written constitution protecting not just the liberties for the people but enunciating the rights of the citizen.

      We seek a country where we make work pay not by humiliating those with disabilities but by strengthening the minimum wage.

      We seek a country where key public services remain in public hands.

      We seek a country where business prospers but where the public are protected against the abuse of monopoly power.

      We seek a country where the right to health and education are based on human need and ability not on the size of your wallet.

      We seek a country which understands its contribution to culture and creativity as part of an international framework.

      And we seek a country which judges its contribution on how useful it can be to the rest of humanity not on how many warheads it can balance on a Trident submarine.

      The late, great Iain Banks, said independence will boost the morale of the nation.

      He wrote of what he believed would be the “sheer energisation of a whole people.”

      That energy can already be felt across Scotland.

      People are starting to imagine a better life, better communities and a better country.

      We are truly privileged.

      Because in less than one year’s time we can stop imagining.

      And we can start building.

      Building the Scotland we know is possible.

      We should remember that Scotland has been on a Home Rule journey for well over a century

      Twice in the more recent chapters of that story have the people been asked the question: “Yes or No?”

      And twice already they have said “Yes”, once narrowly and then overwhelmingly.

      So it is our privilege in this generation to determine the next chapter of Scotland’s story.

      And when the pages of books yet unwritten speak to generations yet unborn of this time and this place, of our Scotland today, what is the story they will tell?

      They can say that we who lived at this special time recognised a priceless moment for what it was.

      That those who saw this chance did not baulk at it.

      That those who were given this moment did not let it pass by.

      And that we, Scotland’s independence generation, reached out and grasped the opportunity of a lifetime when it came our way.

      We will NOT wake up on the morning of 19 September next year and think to ourselves what might have been.

      We WILL wake up on that morning filled with hope and expectation – ready to build a new nation both prosperous and just.

      After almost a century of Scotland moving forward to this very moment – let us ask ourselves these simple questions:

      If not us – then who?

      If not now – then when?

      Friends – we ARE Scotland’s independence generation.

      And our time is now.

    113. Sensibledave says:

      lothianlad 3:38 pm

      You wrote “Sturgeon has NO intention of persuing Independence. She is under the controll of the British secret service who helped put her where she is!”

      Its more likely that she knows that an indyref2 cannot be won at this time (too many negatives) and does not want to blow the opportunity for a generation.

    114. schrodingers cat says:

      @sensible dave

      would a 50%+ vote for the snp standing on a manifesto highlighting independence supersede the vote in 2014?

    115. cirsium says:

      On the subject of what to do now, Alec Ross has written a good article

    116. jfngw says:

      @schrodingers cat

      That’s what a greater than 50% list vote would achieve, around 25 Lab/LibDem/Labour list seats removed, they would be left with 21 list seats. Despite what Tommy Sheridan claimed it is virtually impossible to have a wipe out of unionist list seats.

      Green’s would probably lose 5 & SNP 4 respectively, but you can’t take unionist seats without losing these, unless the unionist vote actually drops through the floor, but I think it’s still likely to still be between 30%-40%.

    117. Mike d says:

      I also think it would have been easier for Nicola to concentrate on the economic legacy of coronavirus sitting in the EU tent spitting out, than in fascist little engerlands tent trying to spit in.

    118. Capella says:

      cirsium – well that’s certainly one way of putting it.
      Once everyone has recovered from their petulant hissy fit I’m hoping some constructive debate will begin. But I’m almost beginning to give up hope.

      There sure are a lot of people on here who jump out of the traps as soon as the whistle goes. This time it’s a tweet by Craig Murray. Tomorrow – who knows.

      @ Julia Gibb @ SC @ K1 – exceptions 🙂 perhaps a few others

    119. schrodingers cat says:

      i dont think anyone plans to stand indy list candidates in the south region.

      that means the snp would lose only one list msp, maree tod

      i have no probs replacing greens for indy list msps

      i dont know anyone who has suggested we could wipe out the unionists on the list, that wont happen

      it is a risk worth taking, which party finally gets the nod from the high profile people, will be the one folk will swing behind

    120. Tannadice Boy says:

      @schrodingers cat. Implicit in my comment was the realisation that it couldn’t be done within the SNP as things stand. Hence cancelling my membership which I did sometime ago. I am happy with my decision. The more observant will get the game set and match reference (John Major) and it was 20 years or more before that issue was revisted. Ditto Indy years away now.

    121. Derick fae Yell says:

      I posted this on facebook this morning, in response to a post by my friend Angus, who is very close to giving up his SNP membership after 30 years.

      Angus R this is exactly how I feel. And it’s very much how I felt about my party in the 80s, when that was Labour.

      It’s worse, if anything. Policies I don’t support, candidates I couldn’t vote for, even holding my nose. Given that the central vetting has been captured by an organised entryist group there’s the distinct possibility that there will be candidates I would be duty bound to campaign against. Which is a very strange feeling after so many years. Conduct committee, captured by the same group, is being used to protect them and purge genuine nationalists.

      Conference has been reduced to a leadership rally. Gerry Fisher was a prophet, who knew! When National Council began to exert a policy role it was neutered.

      The SNP is close to where Labour was in the late 80s and 90s: massively successful electorally, but hollowed out inside. The tone of the increasingly hysterical attacks on ISP and “orders” to “both votes SNP” is so very “Labour”. You will be called a “Yoon”, unfriended and blocked by people, barely in the door.

      Our broad church ultra democratic party has been captured and subverted by people whose priority is not independence, but merely power and money, best case. When SNP MPs are employing ex GCHQ people as caseworkers, eyebrows raise.

      It’s wider and deeper than the “trans” issue, which has just been the lever that these infiltrators have used.

      32 years a member here. I’ve been so down about it. Ordinary members have no real influence other than to stop working and voting for the party, or leave (as thousands already have).

      I have people on my list who genuinely believe, with faith but no obvious evidence, that we will have an independence vote next year. I hardly have the heart to discuss It with them. It was made clear yesterday that there will be no attention to independence until the “economic consequences” of Covid-19 have been dealt with. Which will be many years.

      Not sure I can do this much longer. Seriously considering moving to ISP

      Since I posted it, I’ve seen a constant stream of ‘Pop-up Party’ smears on social media. The same phrase, repeated again and again. So very ‘on-message’ New Labour. That thing, that phrase, that tiny peerie thing, is the straw that this particular camel’s back is broken by. Enough!

      That thing, that tiny

    122. Gary45% says:

      Thanks for posting that.
      Nice One.

    123. jfngw says:


      You are correct in one sense, Nicola Sturgeon is not a gambler and wants to be 100% certain of success. That position never happens in politics, sometimes you have to make the gamble.

      Not quite sure what your reasoning is, the UK is a shitshow, when would be a better time, unless you are a Boris devotee of course. I’ll expect the ‘you’ve never had it so good’ soon, that was the Tory phrase when many were living in shitholes around the country still with outside toilets.

    124. Alec Lomax says:

      ISP. Now why do I think of Sillar’s short-lived Scottish Labour Party?

    125. liz says:

      SC I’m not your secretary

    126. schrodingers cat says:

      @tannadyce lad

      indy is not a gift that nicola or the snp can give

      it is the sovereign people of scotland to give us that gift

      the polls are very promising, a prerequisite for indy regardless of which route is taken.

      i am very optimistic

    127. schrodingers cat says:

      liz says:
      SC I’m not your secretary
      never asked you to be my secretary, you said that loads of smart well educated people have given many examples of what to do. i merely asked you to name a few

    128. liz says:

      @Derick fae Yell, you are speaking for me.

      I feel exactly the same.
      There is a concerted effort, I believe by SNP staffers to destroy the ISP.
      It’s pathetic, the new party would be lucky to get more than the Greens unless they are led by a big name, so why are they so scared?

      The NEC are out of control, posting daily that SNP x2 is the only way.

      I’m still a member, just but I know in my heart, NS will do as much as she can to block indy until Holyrood is neutered.

      I have SNP friends who refuse to believe that she won’t lead us out of the UK. I also have friends who have held positions in branches as officers who’ve resigned in disgust.

      What we do is, with the help of AUOB, it’s now clearer to me why so many SNP politicos have dissed them, march on Holyrood, hand in a plebiscite reminding the SNP, we are sovereign.
      Also still hope Alex will return in some capacity

    129. schrodingers cat says:

      once again, sensible dave is refusing to be drawn on my question. very telling

    130. schrodingers cat says:


      hand in a plebiscite.

      you mean hand in a petition?

      most are electronic these days, you only need to email nicola the results

      im not a big fan of petitions,

    131. Beaker says:

      Remember that poster with Ed Milliband in Nicola Sturgeon’s pocket?

      How about one with Boris and Dominic?

    132. Julia Gibb says:

      Are the 54% who say they intend to vote SNP next year going to sign the “petition”?
      Are they going to March on Holyrood?

      Only Party members can change the leadership or those elected to office. Everything else is hot air. We need change but that means taking back control not taking the huff.

      The divisions in the YES movement are not going to bring about Independence. Present me with an alternative Party that can deliver a majority at Holyrood next year and they will have my vote. I will be using my 2nd vote tactically but I hope we have a clear single choice Party when the time comes.

      The 2nd. Vote may send a shock to the Leadership and has my full support.
      The members fighting HQ to regain control have my full support.

      However fellow Indy/YES supporters attacking SNP members is simply pointless and idiotic.

    133. CameronB Brodie says:

      Julia Gibb
      My position is morally and legally sustainable. Is yours?

    134. defo says:

      What a dafdie ,I thought goalpost shifting was a reserved matter!

    135. K1 says:

      Yeah…54% polling…lets sign a petition saying we don’t like you no more…again…who is to replace them?

      Agree with Julia too…happily vote Indy candidates on the list to increase pressure, but here’s the thing, if in destroying the snp wi a petition and voting for Indy list candidates, how is it that pushing us toward Indy?

      As the logic goes: list candidates to get rid of unionists (remember them?) Indy ones so that a majority SNP government can pass legislation easily and I presume ensure better chance of Indy itlsef.

      But now: Destroy SNP, shower a fucks, and vote Indy list, but not SNP regional?

      Again who are we replacing them with?


      Moaning shower of bastards the lot of you. Mr prediction isn’t always right y’know.

    136. Skip_NC says:

      I’m looking at this from 3,000 miles away so I may be missing some nuance. However, isn’t Nicola Sturgeon saying that economic recovery from COVID-19 is better done from within the UK?

      If she is, why does she think that? If she has handled COVID-19 as well as it seems from news reports, I assume she has built up quite a bit of capital with 2014 No voters and she can cash that in and go for an independence vote at the earliest opportunity. If she thinks she cannot do that, why is she still leader of the SNP?

    137. CameronB Brodie says:

      Julia Gibb
      You appear to imagine you are my intellectual and moral superior, and so competent to judge the quality of my opinion as being of no value. Remember, I’m trained in law and all sorts of stuff you’ve never even heard of. So you might want to get over yourself and perhaps fill your boots.

      Full text.

      Globalization and Health volume 12, Article number: 84 (2016)
      Global constitutionalism, applied to global health governance: uncovering legitimacy deficits and suggesting remedies

    138. callmedave says:

      Jings! Just catching up…been out and about.

      A much maligned cat is without doubt a ‘shoo in’ for the most harassed poster today. 🙂


      There is no point in getting too excited yet.
      Get the list party sorted out and select the right regions to stand in. Pick a few good candidates and it is likely to be a moderate success.

      Holyrood election plebiscite definitely

      With a 50+ % of the vote and wiping out half a dozen unionists at the same time in Holyrood declare independence.

      Game on: Only the voters can get Scotland independence done.

      It will not be easy to carry it through, but we can and must.

      But Corona needs stamped out as far as possible first and then is the time.

      Figs today:

      N. Ireland…….today…….02……..Total…..556…BBC

      I know it doesn’t add up but that’s what they say.


      13/07/20 17:35 The Mail:

      Eighty-three Britons are now dying from Covid-19 each day, on average – down 12 per cent on the average of 95 last Monday, according to government data.

      Separate figures released today also showed the number of new confirmed cases has now risen for three days in a row, raising fears that the outbreak may no longer be shrinking.

      Health officials registered 530 more coronavirus infections today, taking the rolling weekly average to 624 – up 6 per cent on the 590 last Monday and the first week-on-week rise since the start of May.

      It comes little more than a week after Britain took the first steps back to normal life on ‘Super Saturday’, with Boris Johnson finally relaxing strict lockdown rules in a desperate bid to kick-start the economy.

    139. schrodingers cat says:


      If she thinks she cannot do that, why is she still leader of the SNP?

      why do you think she cannot do that?

    140. John Mcphail says:

      From her Tweet today complaining about the erosion of powers, there are, as of now, about 1800 replies. 90% of these are critical of her doing hee haw as far as Indy2 is concerned. She must know the troops are not happy.

    141. Brian Doonthetoon says:

      Things are gonna get messy…

      The ISP has said they will only stand in the regional list election. I don’t believe they have explicitly said that they won’t stand in South Scotland (3) and Highlands & Islands (1), where the SNP already have regional MSPs.

      “The Alliance For Independence party will launch within two weeks and campaign in next year’s Holyrood election. It will not challenge the SNP in constituency seats and only contest list seats. It is hoping to field up to 96 candidates.”

      They also have not said they won’t stand in the two previously mentioned regions. Even if they stand in all 8 regions, why are they putting up 96 candidates? That’s 12 candidates in every region!

      Assuming (hopefully) that a single pro-indy party (or alliance) in the regions could attract 40% of the normally SNP voters to vote pro-indy, they would be doing well to get two candidates elected per region. Why 96?

      Also, to repeat what I typed on 6th July…

      “If you think voting ISP in great numbers will get rid of Murdo Fraser, I would think again.
      In Mid Scotland and Fife, the Tories got 4 regional seats. Even with a decent ISP turnout, if Fraser is first on the Tory list again, even if the Tories lose 3 of their seats, he will still be selected.
      Realistically, I can’t see them NOT having at least a couple of seats in that region.”

    142. Shug says:

      Mr Swinney’s article yesterday was interesting in that he was against a second party but no analysis of the numbers.

      The only argument was if you support the snp you vote snp

      If Nicola does not move by the end of the year she is toast

      Her options seem to be:

      1) Scottish election may followed by ref 2
      2) Scottish election may to be used as a mandate to negotiate Indy
      These presume Westminster will still allow it
      3) crash the Scottish government before dec and follow 2)
      4) call A referendum before dec regardless of section 30

      I do wonder how much more evidence the fishermen and farmers need and how staunch unionists will view ulster border controls. It would be funny to watch the rangers bus being subject to checks every saturday

    143. Capella says:

      @ Skip_NC – no – she doesn’t say that. Here’s a transcript provided by CA in the last thread:

      Marr: So, it does sound as if, no more talk about the next referendum. Maybe for the rest of this year at least?

      Sturgeon: Look, as long as I need to be focusing on the Coronavirus crisis – and the economic legacy of that crisis- that is going to have my 100% focus.

      I haven’t changed my view on independence. I think Scotland would be much better off as an independent country. I want to see Scotland become an independent country. None of that has changed.

      But, I think the people across Scotland right now would expect me to have my entire focus on leading the country through the biggest crisis that any of us have ever experienced, and that is what I’m going to continue to do and if in the process of doing that, it’s not my intention, then people can see the benefits of autonomous decision making then, as I say, perhaps there’s a lesson there.

      Right now – she is focusing 100% on the Covid crisis and it’s economic aftermath. That could just as easily be resolved by remaining in the EU. Couldn’t it?

    144. Bill McLean says:

      Derick fae Yell – who are these ex-GCHQ people being employed by SNP caseworkers? There must have been Scots employed by GCHQ and why would some of them not be supporters of Independence now? Would you bar ex-members of the armed forces supporting Independence as well? People change – i used to be a true Brit until about 2003 and the door creaked open a bit and then it swung wide open. Now i’m ashamed to have been taken in. Wish all the bad-mouthing and unsourced allegations, which are only pleasing unionists and trolls, would stop!

    145. Sensibledave says:


      You have a huge dilemma. Were you all totally wrong and terrible judges of character before when NS was revered in saintly terms for her intelligence, tactics, planning, knowledge, character and ability … or are you totally wrong now?

      Either way, it proves that you have all got her completely wrong once.

    146. schrodingers cat says:


      it was an answer i got on twitter from one of the women who launched isp. no they wouldnt stand in the south

      the alliance party is a complete mystery to me but the report in the sunday post said one of its members was an x snp msp

    147. Bill McLean says:

      While I may not agree with all of the criticism of NS Sensible have you never changed your mind about anything? Silly sort of statement from you!

    148. fillofficer says:

      FM got a surprise visit from PM treeza may on 27.3.17 @ crowne plaza across from BBC, coincidence ?
      i’m thinking that was when FM was warned off & her attitude changed towards indyref2
      MI5 dirty trick at play here
      she’s been stalling ever since
      31.1.20 was the ideal day for action but she craptit !

    149. Skip_NC says:

      @ Capella, yes, I was missing nuance. It is tax filing deadline time here in the USA so I haven’t been able to read Wings as much as I would like. TYVM for a fuller quote of what she said.

      @ Schrodinger’s Cat, I did not say that I think she cannot do that. Based on the tweet at the top, it seemed to me that NS thinks she cannot do that. However, Capella’s response to me indicates that I was, indeed, missing some nuance.

      Back to doing some tax returns.

    150. schrodingers cat says:


      ne’er day? you jest right?

      i usually tie a rope round my waist and give the other end to my better half and tell her, “if im not back in a week, wind me in”

      the covid 19 hit britain

    151. liz says:

      I did wonder about the Crowne Plaza visit, it made no sense, except that the CP would not be bugged, whereas I suppose Bute House has CCTV plus recordings, hence why the AS thing was weird also.

      I have heard loads of rumours, no proof, also NS laughed off reference to her ‘exotic lifestyle’.
      You may be on to something

    152. schrodingers cat says:

      when the covid 19 hit the uk mid jan, everything was on hold, launching indyref2 before or after that point would have been suicide

    153. Gregory Beekman says:


      I’m not sure what to think these days; some of my thoughts:

      “Salmond lost the referendum and now we’re punishing Sturgeon for his failure.”

      “Sturgeon’s slow-and-steady approach has resulted in a sustained lead for independence in the polls, which proves her approach the correct one”

      “Sturgeon’s lost the plot over GRA”

      “Covid saved Sturgeon’s face because there was no way she could deliver a new indyref on the timescale she said”

      “Sturgeon’s not a risk taker and will always be too cautious”

      “Salmond’s a risk taker and it’s time we took some risks”

      “We need Salmond back”

      “But will Salmond blow it like last time?”

      “Do women prefer Sturgeon’s approach to gaining independence? Is that why independence is now in the lead?”

      “Why isn’t Sturgeon taking UK Gov to court to prove we can choose to have an indyref whenever we want? She’s bottled it.”

      “Sturgeon’s waiting for the magic 60% before going to court because 60% is something a court can’t ignore and will prove to be the winning legal hand”

      “The Supreme Court will obviously back the UK Gov so we’re screwed legally, so all she can do is grow the percentage while waiting on the English booting the Tories out of power because only then will we get a new indyref”

      “I don’t want to wait as long as Sturgeon appears to want to wait for a new indyref :(”

      So I’m confused.

      my tuppence

    154. jfngw says:

      If the current polls are correct and hold up, the likelihood is the SNP will have a majority with just constituency seats. If this ends up as the case it makes the list party virtually powerless.

      How do they then make an impression, the only pressure they could then have is by taking over 50% the list vote and this requires them to stand in every region. It’s a tall order to obtain this and needs someone high profile to front it. But the Tory government are currently planning dismantling any prospect of achieving this in the future via Holyrood.

      Now is not the time for cowardice or indecision, it’s time for Scotland to get going outside the UK. It’s high risk but I’m not sure what we now have to lose.

    155. Brian Doonthetoon says:

      Hi Sensibledave at 6:00 pm.

      You typed,
      You have a huge dilemma. Were you all totally wrong and terrible judges of character before when NS was revered in saintly terms for her intelligence, tactics, planning, knowledge, character and ability … or are you totally wrong now?
      Either way, it proves that you have all got her completely wrong once.”

      As you didn’t refer to/quote anything I typed today, I don’t have a scooby what you’re on about!

    156. Ronnie Leitch says:

      We need ALex Salmond back.

    157. Bob Mack says:

      I am going to continue my holiday. Wake me up when we can campaign again. Hopefully before I’m dead.

    158. ahundredthidiot says:

      Let’s take the economic argument for a moment then.

      How many times has Rev Stu provided unequivocal evidence that Scotlands votes matter not a jot to the Leadership of the UK?

      So, how, in a thousand different arguments, does it make any sense whatsoever, to eek out the covid economic legacy under London rule?

      They will shaft us at every turn – because our votes don’t matter and the Tories are going to be in Office for a very, very long time.

      History does teach us that in difficult circumstances countries can make very brave and sensible decisions (NHS just one example) so the SNP should be making every effort under the sun to terrify the bejesus out of every last unionist that staying in the Union, is quite literally, bad for their health!

      Regardless of views on any second wave – the time is absolutely now to focus less on COVID response (pass it to the Juniors) and get back the fuck on track – NS is just one person, not a cause, not a movement, just one person – and she needs to go.

      Delay is Defeat.

    159. Polly says:

      Breeks says:
      13 July, 2020 at 12:20 pm
      ‘Independence was difficult enough when there was only one government we had to overthrow.’

      That is just beautiful and also heartbreaking.

    160. Papko says:

      “Sturgeon knows more people like the idea of supporting Indy, provided there is no indy”

      AKA all the NO voters that watch her updates daily and find her presentable and articulate, a worthy spokesperson for Scotland.

    161. Papko says:

      @Cameron BBB

      “Remember, I’m trained in law and all sorts of stuff you’ve never even heard of”

      Very evocative, I am thinking you are Rutger Hauer in “Bladerunner”

    162. Polly says:

      Scozzie says:
      ‘Let’s just remind ourselves of the final section of Alex Salmond’s 2013 conference speech‘

      Thank you so much for posting this at this time. That is the kind of uplifting, inspiring and unifying speech which has been so much missed. I remember feeling my spirit soar on hearing it. The present party leaders are dull, flat, uninspiring and though I can still admire Nicola Sturgeon’s handling of the press and use of language I never found her to be inspiring in quite the same way even when I was a greater admirer than I am at present. The independence movement needs to get back to what we had then.

    163. Dan says:

      As Smallaxe stated:

      Scotland The Brave or Scotland The Slave

      I previously presumed the context was being a slave to Westminster, not living a life of endless servitude mandate farming for oor oan “government”… 🙁

      #WinterIsComing #TheQuickening #ShitOrGetOffThePot

    164. Tannadice Boy says:

      Polly spot on about Breeks 12 20. Great comment I wished I thought of that!. Stu called it early. Right as usual best comment of the day. He has built up an intuitive insight. He knows his business. I will keep trying to write a practical insightful comment. One day…

    165. Colin Alexander says:

      Step 1. NEVER vote SNP again while Sturgeon / Murrell are in charge

      Step 2. Encourage others to stop voting SNP

      Step 3. Call the SNP out as colonial administrators. Call out Sturgeon as a coward.

      Step 4. We need to do what the SNP won’t: Political and legal challenges to the sovereignty of UK Parliament / assert Scottish sovereignty

      Step 5. Someone beg Alex Salmond to type a bit faster and make it be known he will stand against Nicola Sturgeon in her constituency.

      Step 6. Likewise target the Sturgeon allies: Humza Yousaf, etc. Targeting the SNP big names only, not all constituency seats.

    166. CameronB Brodie says:

      You ain’t seen anything yet. 😉

      Create Your Own Constitutional Theory

    167. Breeks says:

      For the benefit, and I mean that, of commentators like Julia Gibb, who seem genuinely unaware of Scotland’s options, (and it’s probably not a bad thing to do for the rest of us too), I’m going to summarise the options that I’m aware of. Feel free to embellish, or chip in more… [Trolls and arseholes will be ‘souped’… scroll on until past].

      1. The SNP drift us along until we achieve 60% support in the polls and a mythical Section 30 is agreed. Blah, blah, blah…Not going to discuss the baggage this option carries.

      2. The SNP rebels, Angus MacNeil and Chris McEleny, propose their Plan B, which as I know it lacks detail, but would demolish\ dispense with the ambiguity of a Section 30, and hold IndyRef as commanded my mandate, rather than speculative and indefinite poll %. This will build on Martin Keatings, presumably winning his case to get around Section 30.

      3. The infamous and ubiquitous UDI which Pete Wishart types draw like a gun, which the Orange Order will interpret as an act of war. Sigh. Not everything that isn’t a referendum is a UDI. It’s not a binary option.

      4. Craig Murray, a man learned in International Law and Diplomacy has stated Scotland is perfectly entitled to simply withdraw from the Union. The protocols for doing so exist and are lawful, and as is his way, Mr Murray cites those very protocols which were formally applied to Kosovo and forcefully argued by the self same UK Government we would now escape.

      Read Craig’s stuff more deeply. He’s been a professional at this type of thing. Listen to the man! We might need a codified convention to do this, but that’s just technical spaghetti. It’s doable and has been done before.

      5. Option 5 is using a Scottish Election as a plebiscite on Independence, bypassing a referendum altogether. (Incidentally has a topical update in the Orkney News… )

      The twist, maybe let’s call it option 5 ‘b’ is not waiting until the grim landscape of 2021 has already scorched our earth, but crashing Holyrood much earlier, and having a Scottish Election / plebiscite in the Autumn of this year. Hubba hubba! I know, I know, Covid…

      6. Option 6, my own preferred option, is a Constitutional Backstop, not to crash the UK, but to crash the UK’s Brexit, and force the EU to recognise that Scotland’s subjugation is unconstitutional and unlawful according to International Law, when EU Law requires the process of a Member state leaving the EU to be lawful and constitutional.
      With Brexit deemed unlawful without Scotland’s consent, Brexit would be halted in its tracks and unable to proceed. The UK would have to choose between Brexiting without Scotland on board (as happened in NI), or abandoning Brexit in deference to Scotland’s sovereign veto. Without going into detail, in either option, the UK Union is left untenable and doomed.

      So that’s kinda where my heads at… all this talk about List Party Seats etc? Meh… That’s a Plan A derivative, UNLESS someone drops a bombshell and brings forward the 2021 Scottish Elections. It’s NOT going to save Scotland from Brexit deregulation and asset stripping.

      Only Options 4 and 6 give Scotland a credible escape from the Brexit noose in December, and the impact of COVID upon those options is arguably negligible. You will probably dismiss Craig’s Option as a UDI by another name, but don’t. It’s not even close to being a UDI. Scotland’s Constitutional Sovereignty already exists. Do not confuse a routine act of Legal emancipation with a complicated act of creation.

      Option 6, a Constitutional Backstop, is where it’s at. Although, with our chestnuts this deep in the fire, we’d better call it an Emergency Constitutional Backstop, and get our collective finger out to make it happen. Turn Brexit into the Constitutional trap which has no way out for a United Kingdom, and they cannot put the blame for the entire bourach onto anybody else but themselves. Fat heads Johnson, Gove and Cummings will have killed off the UK through sheer bloody idiocy. I say! Thanks awfully chaps. 😉

    168. Sensibledave says:

      Brian 6.22

      … it was a general comment to those who no longer favour NS.

    169. Breastplate says:

      I can’t believe there is still support for the independence gradualists as they watch the SNP limber up at their attempt to bridge a chasm in 2 small jumps.

    170. robbo says:

      Logged in,logged back out.Logged back in.

      Nope ,still the same. Quite depressing comments to be honest on here.

      I think mankie jakit might be a shoe-in for a list seat.

      Time to go back to sleep.Wake me up around May 21.

    171. Josef Ó Luain says:

      The S.N.P. has been stolen – just as well there’s not a newspaper to fight-over.

    172. Capella says:

      I see Colin Alexander at 7.13 has summarised the thread. Reads like the Unionist manifesto.

    173. Brian Doonthetoon says:

      Hi Sensibledave at 7:30 pm.

      You typed,
      “Brian 6.22

      … it was a general comment to those who no longer favour NS.”

      Well, as I didn’t even mention Nicola, There was no need to direct your comment at me!

      You must brush up on your debating skills…

    174. Robert Louis says:

      RevStu at 0229pm

      Ahem, I refer you to my comment at 1240pm….

      Not being picky, though.

    175. Breastplate says:

      Do you genuinely believe that the SNP leadership warrant no criticism whatsoever?

    176. Capella says:

      @ Breeks – all very plausible but lacks a crucial element of any strategy – fails to take account of the actions of your opponent. Apart from that – fine.

      @ Breastplate – Do you genuinely believe that the SNP leadership warrant no criticism whatsoever?


    177. Beaker says:

      @Breeks says:
      13 July, 2020 at 7:29 pm

      “6. Option 6, my own preferred option, is a Constitutional Backstop, not to crash the UK, but to crash the UK’s Brexit” –

      That would fuck Wales, since they voted to leave.

    178. Dave M says:

      @Daisy: I don’t want people to vote out of “loyalty to the SNP”; I want them to vote in such a way that makes independence more likely. I certainly WON’T be voting SNP unless they change their policy direction.

      Someone needs to stop fannying around with list parties. The SNP needs electoral pressure from a pro-independence party on both ballots. They have too quickly become accustomed to a captive electorate, à Labour. That is not healthy, and Scotland deserves far better.

    179. Sensibledave says:

      Brian 7.45

      “ You must brush up on your debating skills”

      … I think I am doing marvellously thank you!

    180. Osakisushi says:

      Perhaps I’m being gullible (again) but could the “Economic Legacy” mean attempting to deal with the damage to our country by getting us out of this corrupt union?

    181. Liz g says:

      Breeks @ 7.29
      Any thoughts on using the Westminster MPs to resign their seats and force by elections en mass to then run on ending the Treaty ?

    182. Socrates MacSporran says:

      Breeks @ 7.29pm

      I like Option 6 – it gets round the big obstacle.

      We do not yet know if the 54|% for Independence will hold up, but, we do know the 62% for continued EU membership has held up.

      That’s the number with which we can win – but, only if the SNP?Scottish Government is brave enough to go for broke. Making that happen is the big test, but, if we can do it, we win sooner.

      Once again, you’ve nailed it dear boy.

    183. schrodingers cat says:

      Sensibledave says:

      Brian 7.45

      “ You must brush up on your debating skills”

      … I think I am doing marvellously thank you!

      how? by still avoiding my question, a simple yes or no will do dave

    184. schrodingers cat says:

      Option 6, my own preferred option, is a Constitutional Backstop, not to crash the UK, but to crash the UK’s Brexit, and force the EU to recognise that Scotland’s subjugation is unconstitutional and unlawful according to International Law, when EU Law requires the process of a Member state leaving the EU to be lawful and constitutional.
      force the EU to recognise….


    185. CameronB Brodie says:

      You’ve not answered mine either. Are you still hostile to limiting government through a respect for Natural Law and the principle of universality?

    186. schrodingers cat says:

      @ breeks

      interesting idea, are you a constitutional lawyer? can the eu be forced by scotland to admit/do anything?

    187. CameronB Brodie says:

      schrodingers cat
      I’ve already explained to you how constitutional jurisprudence works, and how Brexit lacks adequate legal justification. You’ve no respect for the rule-of-law though, so it doesn’t appear to have penetrated your consciousness. Or are you simply being deliberately obtuse?

    188. Sensibledave says:


      … what was your question


      … I’m not engaging with r*****s tonight.

    189. CameronB Brodie says:

      What the hell are you on, I’ve kicked the living shite out of your political position?

      Eliminating Discrimination and Ensuring
      Substantive Equality

    190. B Griffiths says:

      Sorry Rev but Nicola’s plan is quite right, we don’t know what EU & Uk trade/border arrangements will be. We can’t really put a vote in front of the people in new ScotRef until we know that.

    191. CameronB Brodie says:

      Given the FM has apparently encourage the support for gendeerwoowoo in the party, I really don’t think her judgement can be trusted.

      Bioethics and Human Rights in the Constitutional Formation of Global Health

    192. Liz g says:

      Shrodingers Cat @ 8.42
      As I understand it the Treaty Of Union is primarily a trade Treaty.
      It apparently guarantees equality of trade across the UK. The special arrangements for N.Ireland violates this.
      That could potentially be challenged by Scotland especially since the EU are breaking/bending their own rules to have this arrangement.
      Both Westminster and The EU are breaking and bending Treaty rules to our disadvantage while negotiating with our resources …..We may be able to stop Brexit in its tracks that way???

    193. Mike d says:

      Beaker 7.59pm No! The 700.000 odd incomers to Wales voted leave. Google, Welsh Brexit vote percentage. And you’ll see who swung the welsh leave vote.

    194. schrodingers cat says:

      @liz g

      fair point liz, but i am no constitutional lawyer so i have asked lallans peat worrier this question, i hope we can

      then there is the political will in the eu to stop scotland being dragged out of the eu, even if it is unconstitutional. i dont believe there is, i hope im wrong but there certainly is no intention of anyone in france to do so

    195. Liz g says:

      B.Griffiths @ 8.56
      No she’s not quite right on this and she never has been.
      Scotland voted to stay in the EU and she has nae business doing anything other than making sure we do!
      Her manifesto didn’t say “a material change in circumstances with details of the change to follow” either, the manifesto she was voted in on had no such caveats.

    196. jfngw says:

      We are already out of the EU as members, we have no MEP’s, we are merely in a transition period where we are allowed member access for a defined period. The only way back is to apply to join. It’s too late to stop Brexit using constitutional law and I don’t have the expertise to comment but as no legal people used this route it seems unlikely to have worked.

      International law is a sham, it is there so the powerful can quote it when they want to justify their actions, ignored when small countries have justifiable claims.

      There can be daydreams or there can be reality, the EU could let us in easily, it s their decision not ours. The EU is not going to intervene in UK politics directly.

    197. Guybrush Threepwood says:

      I wonder if Wee Ginger Dug regrets that sycophantic post from a few months ago, praising Nicola Sturgeon (the ‘I trust Nicola Sturgeon’ one).

      I really cannot understand Sturgeon’s overly cautious approach to everything and anything.

    198. dakk says:


      Bergamo doctors now saying the long term damage to survivors of Covid have been hugely underestimated.

      Psychosis, spinal infections, kidney damage.

      Permanent organ damage.

      Combined with the short antibody immunity outlined in the Thomas and Guy report, we can now see why we had this global response.

    199. Bailey says:

      The formation of a different trade settlement in Northern Ireland after brexit to the one which Scotland is being railroaded into is a breach of Article VI of the Act of Union “Regulations of Trade, Duties etc”, making any union with Scotland de facto void. The Treaty of Union is extant and is the foundation document of the UK. David Cameron knew that when he tried to commission the Crawford & Boyle report in the run up to 2014 when he expected to be able to publish a report stating that we had been “subsumed” entirely and were no long a country. What he found made him drop the Treaty like a hot potato as we have far more rights than he wanted people to believe.

      Our MPs should have challenged that breach long ago but the SNP doesn’t seem to have the stomach for it. However, citizens could challenge it. The UN has tribunals which deal with old treaties. It has obviously been breached since it was first implemented but our ancestors didn’t have the wherewithal to challenge it and then were fed lies for years. There are many other things it could be challenged on.

      Lorna Campbell who often posts in the National has studied this area of law and believes that if a legal challenge is made on the international stage, Brexit negotiations would be suspended until such time we received adjudication. Deals with the USA etc can’t be made in our name without resolution of the Treaty.

      We should have attacked the legitimacy of England acting as the UK to dictate to us long ago. England rode roughshod over what was in the original treaty as it gained control of Scotland and eventually what was to become the rest of the UK. No legal authority whatsoever exists for this state of affairs. England as the UK would lose in the international courts.

    200. Liz g says:

      Shrodingers Cat @ 9.05
      Even if there was the political will…I wouldn’t want them too,this is a matter for Scotland and I’m afraid if we as as people won’t get off our arses and organise our own hoose we can’t expect others to either….We’ve always been able to end the Union in various ways, it’s finding honest brokers to get on and do it that’s the trouble

    201. CameronB Brodie says:

      FFS, if Peat Worrior was competent in either constitutional law and human rights law, he’d have spotted Brexit lacks legal substance. Westminster no longer holds moral legal authority over Scotland, only authoritarian legal FORCE.

    202. CameronB Brodie says:

      sorry…competent in either constitutional law or human rights law

      Theories of Justice, Human Rights, and the
      Constitution of International Markets

    203. Capella says:

      @ Liz g – what we need is the Scottish people to vote for repeal of the ToU or at least demonstrate that is their sovereign will. The border in the Irish sea does break the ToU. But, in 2014, the sovereign people of Scotland voted to ratify the ToU. We need to demonstrate that we have changed our mind.

      The EU have said they will accept Scotland as a member providing there is a constitutional means of getting there.

    204. Ron Maclean says:

      It’s too late to stop Brexit because the UK left the EU at 2300 on 31 January 2020.

    205. schrodingers cat says:

      I agree liz,

      any plan which depends on others bailing us out is not worth pursuing

      I’m pretty certain that nicola and the scottish ministers will have been informed by the eu, exactly what they are willing to do and what they wont do.

      you would first have to argue that scotland is subjugated. not impossible, just highly unlikely to be proven in a court this side of next century

    206. Chris Downie says:

      Yet more proof, if ever it were needed, that Krankie MacMerkel is a charlatan.

    207. Rm says:

      Is the union even legal, normal people weren’t allowed to vote, they are now so it should be re run that’s all the Scottish people want, nobody has the right to stop it especially the country to the south of us, if the politicians in Holyrood at the moment can’t do what the people want we’ll get another lot that will, people are the power.

    208. Liz g says:

      Jfngw @ 9.07
      Scotland never was a member,they told us often enough.
      I’m not talking about making representation as a member.
      I’m talking of raising a complaint in the courts the EU are trying to sign a Treaty that would impinge an existing Treaty we are “menbers” of.
      The UK might be out but their future agreement hasn’t been signed yet and they are trying to sign one that breaks the agreement they have with Scotland….I’m not talking of an Act of the Westminster parliament that they can just change to suit in the middle of the night…they can’t alter that Treaty and that Treaty obliges them to treat Scotland equally in matters of Trade!

    209. Andy Ellis says:

      @ Breeks & like minded folks

      The only feasible route to indy this decade is plebiscitary elections. Anything else is magical thinking. Folk either wake up and smell the coffee or meekly accept that.

      Sadly, I’m increasingly sure the Yes movement is too timid to do anything much. What a disappointment.

    210. Liz g says:

      Capella @ 9.20
      Yes Capella we sadly did ratify that Treaty in 2014,but it was and is still the Treaty Of 1706.
      The Treaty didn’t change…therefore the UK Parliament is bound by it as much as Scotland is and the Treaty specifically says that Trade is to be equal and Scotland cannot be disadvantaged.
      So Westminster is acting outside the terms of the Treaty if and when it signs an agreement with the EU giving N.Ireland an advantage in trade that we don’t have.

    211. North chiel says:

      “Breeks @ 0729 pm “ , any of 4,5 or 6 would do for me . “ it’s time “ let’s get moving” !

    212. Bailey says:

      Some people say that Nicola Sturgeon will have taken legal advice and will have decided against going down the treaty route. I think there are various reasons that the SNP haven’t gone down this route and one is that she is taking advice on the 1998 Scotland Act which obviously only deals with the limited devolved powers we have been given. The solicitors in the Scottish Parliament seem to be civil service solicitors and the civil service is controlled by Whitehall. I often wonder what the “quality” of the advice is anyway. She is a stickler for “the rules” and is too cautious to think beyond the devolved settlement.

      I also think that some people in the SNP wanted to make a case on making a better future for people in Scotland etc rather than old treaties but the problem is that the treaty is how we entered the union and will have to be sounded in the international courts as an international treaty when we leave. The fact that David Cameron had it looked at by the Professors Crawford & Boyle and then backed off from it is, I think, evidence that Westminster knows perfectly well that the treaty is extant and that Scotland is a Partner within the union. Our ancestors wrote it to safeguard us, not realising that it would be deliberately misinterpreted from day one and that we are now being treated as an annexed territory of England.

      The Treaty of Union as an international treaty has primacy of the 1998 Scotland Act and all other domestic legislation and if people are just going by the 1998 Act, you could argue it’s not worth the paper it’s written on. What about the Sewell Motions which the Supreme Court said was just a convention? Clauses we thought could be relied on have been thrown away.

      The Supreme Court has already ruled that Westminster is sovereign but the sovereignty of parliament is a purely English constitutional principle. I think that if Martin Keatings wins in the Court of Session, Westminster will appeal it to its enforcer, the Supreme Court where he will lose.

      Did we ever agree to the principle of the English convention of the sovereignty of parliament? If so, where is it written? There is nothing in the treaty which allows England acting as the UK to force us to brexit or anything else for that matter. England acting as the UK is acting ultra vires and I think the UN would see that.

      I think the Treaty will have to be sounded at some point even if the SNP don’t want to kick start the process.

    213. CameronB Brodie says:

      I’m not suggesting we use constitutional law to stop what has already been given legal force. However, I don’t think the SNP will be any use to Scotland, as long as they continue to take a British nationalist approach to constitutional law. I also think support for the cause would most probably increase, if folk were aware of how Westminster is stripping us of our legal identity, and right to be considered human.

    214. Capella says:

      Much as I respect Craig Murray’s knowledge on these matters, and I have read his many blog entries and listened to his talks, I think he overlooks one important aspect. The UN is clear about countries becoming independent and ending colonial rule. However, we are not a colony. We are party to a bilateral Treaty. Therefore, a different approach is needed. At the very least, the Scottish people must demonstrate a majority wish to end the Treaty.

      And hey – we are now at that point.

      But what do numpties want to do? Storm Bute House and overthrow the Scottish government. Brilliant strategy – eh?
      I know it’s an overused phrase – but you really couldn’t make it up.

    215. Gregor says:

      Banana Scotland can only harness its independent self-potential and function and develop as normal, in the present.

    216. Muscleguy says:

      @Schroedinger’s Cat
      NS has already ruled out any idea of using the 2021 election as any sort of indyref. Though with only 1% between Indy & SNP support it would seem there are not many horses to scare.

      The leadership has also forgotten that last time we moved the polls from 30-35% when the Edinburgh Agreement was signed to 52% before it triggered the Infamous Vow. I know some will say it was a rogue poll but it put the wind up the high heid yins at WM didn’t it so it must have looked like squeaky bum time to them or they wouldn’t have bothered with the new SNP chief of media Murray Foote’s wee scheme.

      That he could be the architect of our defeat and then be employed by the present day SNP is a real indication that they are not serious about Indy. He should be anathema for that forever more no penance will be long enough in my book.

    217. schrodingers cat says:

      the Scottish people must demonstrate a majority wish to end the Treaty.

      i think this is a prerequisite to any forward action,

    218. schrodingers cat says:

      NS has already ruled out any idea of using the 2021 election as any sort of indyref.


    219. schrodingers cat says:

      International law on this point is complicated. It doesn’t straightforwardly infer a right to secession. Self-determination doesn’t straightforwardly mean indy either. Though at the same time – law is a bare thing. It isn’t the be-all-and-end-all of self-determination.

      ask a lawyer a simple question….:)

    220. Awizgonny says:

      What a ridiculous, heartless and irresponsible article – and that goes for most of the comments here that support it.

      With infections and deaths still in 3 figures in England, and no border controls to stop it (not to mention Scotland opening up again) and a huge financial slump you are seriously implying that Sturgeon should start the referendum campaign now or soon. And that’s with a second wave and possible mutations on the horizon, not to mention another possible flu pandemic pending.

      A campaign would spread the virus even further because it would require not only politicians travelling the country but campaigning teams going door to door, leafletting, marches, indoor meetings, and above all, fundraising (good luck with that one at the moment or the next year). Every single one of those has a high risk of spreading Covid. In fact, the backbone of the 2014 Referendum campaign was remarkable for the huge anounts of local meetings in homes and village halls, , small campaign teams meeting up in libraries and so on. Quite different from a normal Election campaign – and far riskier for spreading Covid.

      An independence campaign even starting in a year’s time could literally be responsible for lost lives and livelihoods on this premise. Are you saying that Sturgeon should consider this a price worth paying? I’m not even counting the amount of people in the Comments here who want the campaign to start now. And on top of that you accuse Sturgeon of binning future Independence aspirations because she says she has to deal with the economic circumstances, and since there is no perceived end to the financial crisis , therefore it will never happen, therefore she doesn’t want Independence. What a load of self-justifying twaddle. At this point in time there is in fact NO PERCEIVED END TO THE PANDEMIC ITSELF. And you’re wanting dates and schedules and legislation as proof of her Independence credentials??


      Running a campaign or even preparing for one would also by necessity divert attention from dealing with both the pandemic, which is far from over, and the enormous economic fallout, which hasn’t even started. If the SNP as Scottish Government don’t give both pandemic and economic fallout their full attention for the foreseeable future, support for the SNP would wither on the vine, and any dream of Independence would die, no matter what you think of the party.

      Get a fucking grip. And a better crystal ball. And a clue while you’re at it.

    221. Ron Maclean says:

      “… it is legally possible for the UK Government to react to the passage of a Bill in the Scottish Parliament by making a reference and then persuading the UK Parliament to amend the Scotland Act so as to render the Bill invalid.”

      “The Scottish Parliament is a democratically elected legislature with a mandate to make laws for people in Scotland. It has plenary powers within the limits of its legislative competence. It is not akin to a local authority, and it is not subject to the same legal constraints. But it does not enjoy the sovereignty of the Crown in Parliament: rules delimiting its legislative competence are found in section 29 of the Scotland Act, to which the courts must give effect. And the UK Parliament also has power to make laws for Scotland, a power which the legislation of the Scottish Parliament cannot diminish: section 28(7) of the Scotland Act.”

      From The Inaugural Dover House Lecture, 27 February 2019, delivered by Lord Reed, Deputy President of the Supreme Court.

    222. Capella says:

      @ Awizgonny – well said. Welcome to the Twilight Zone. Better duck for cover – incoming…

    223. CameronB Brodie says:

      As far as I’m concerned PW doesn’t appear to have much of a clue. He’s certainly no international layer, so his opinion holds unsubstantial weight.

      International Law-The Impact on National

    224. Liz g says:

      Bailey @ 9.38
      I’m not all that sure that the Scottish government could make any use of the Treaty at all Bailey.
      Holyrood is an instrument of Westminster, the Scotland Act is it’s foundation document/written constitution. That parliament is bound by terms and conditions laid down by Westminster.
      They (SNP ) muddy the water’s with the names terms and functions of Holyrood every bit as much as Westminster and it’s UK,Britain,The Country choice of descriptors.
      While true that the Scottish People are sovereign and that Holyrood is elected directly by us that’s no IMO where our sovereignty lies. We elect Holyrood as this instrument of Westminster and not as a sovereign parliament.
      The Union is a reserved matter,reserved from Holyrood to Westminster I’d argue that any action over the Treaty has to be taken at Westminster,a parliament we do elect as a sovereign one..
      Hollywood might no be able to say much about the Treaty but the Westminster MPs from Scotland certainly can…it’s by the terms of the Treaty they have their seats and they are one of the two parties to it.

    225. jfngw says:

      @Liz g

      It’s an interesting idea but you would surely need to take the EU and the UK to court as they are both breaking the Treaty. Not sure you would win any future friends in the EU though, they are probably sick to the teeth with the UK by now.

      The other side is the Good Friday Agreement would then be defining what the UK could sign for the whole UK, or they would need to remove Scotland from the UK.

      Sounds pretty expensive though, these constitutional disputes don’t usually come cheap.

    226. Breeks says:

      Liz g says:
      13 July, 2020 at 8:24 pm
      Breeks @ 7.29
      Any thoughts on using the Westminster MPs to resign their seats and force by elections en mass to then run on ending the Treaty ?

      Theatre I think. It’s just tactical. If you want to force an election, it’s one mechanism which does it. Whether it can be imbued with a deep and onerous constitutional meaning, I suspect it probably could, but it would require a knowledge of protocol that I don’t have. But if you want more constitutional bang for your $, I think a Scottish Parliament sitting outside Westminster (and Holyrood) conventions completely, and pledging its allegiance to the Nation’s Constitution and popular sovereignty of the people, is in itself, a defiant rebuke and challenge to the Union.

      Beaker says:
      13 July, 2020 at 7:59 pm

      That would fuck Wales, since they voted to leave

      And trapped as prisoners inside the UK allows us to do what for Wales?

      jfngw says:
      13 July, 2020 at 9:07 pm
      We are already out of the EU as members, we have no MEP’s, we are merely in a transition period where we are allowed member access for a defined period…

      Yes jfngw, but you may recall some of us were pretty incandescent with rage and frustration before we were out of Europe, but people didn’t listen. We are where we are, and must trust that the UK needs some kind of deal with Europe, because that need to agree a deal gives us leverage. If we do nothing until 2021, then the struggle will one where Europe cannot help us.

    227. Nelson says:

      And so on and so forth….

      If people here had the gumption, courage, organisation, and camaraderie, which isn’t difficult, they would be protesting in Charlotte Sq or outside parliament.

      They aren’t. Nor is there the slightest chance they will be.

      See yourselves as you really are.

    228. jfngw says:


      ‘international layer’, is there something about PW you want to divulge that we should know.

    229. CameronB Brodie says:

      Ask a British layer about British constitutional arrangements, and their response will most likely be legal mince, as they will most probably be viewing the world through the lens of British legal practice, and ‘one nation’ constitutional tradition.

      Remember, Scotland already surfers from a deficit in access to human rights and constitutional justice, Brexit simply finishes us off as a nation. If we don’t do something quickly that is, like a constitutional backstop, to buy as time to get our ducks in a row.


    230. Nelson says:

      Seriously, the idea that Wings Over Scotland would organise a protest outside the Holyrood parliament is far fetched in the fucking extreme of fuckery.

    231. Bailey says:

      It shouldn’t take the International Court of Justice long to answer the question “Can a majority of Scotland’s national elected representatives withdraw Scotland from the Treaty as it was initiated?”
      The answer would also reveal whether Scotland is a Partner in the Union or is actually a colony. If a majority of our elected representatives can’t withdraw from the treaty if they have a mandate to do so then I am afraid that we are a de facto colony for those who are saying we aren’t. If we can withdraw (which we should be able to do in a democracy), fine. If we can’t, then we are a colony and we would have had that verified. In that case the UN would assist us in ending our colonised status as they are obliged to do. That is the position that we are in in 2020. We are in a faux democracy where we are being treated as an annexed territory and the route we thought we had (a referendum) is being blocked by the dominant country.

    232. CameronB Brodie says:

      My poor spelling is going to get me in trouble on of these days. 🙂

    233. Breeks says:

      Capella says:
      13 July, 2020 at 9:43 pm

      However, we are not a colony. We are party to a bilateral Treaty. Therefore, a different approach is needed. At the very least, the Scottish people must demonstrate a majority wish to end the Treaty…

      To actively end a treaty by our own volition, arguably yes, but to defend our interests from the reckless breaches of the Treaty by the other party, I fail to see why any “majority mandate“ becomes necessary.

      If you need a ballot on it, what is / was the point of the Treaty in the first place?

    234. K1 says:

      Awizgonny, absofuckinglutley spot on.

    235. CameronB Brodie says:

      Poor spelling and even poorer proof reading. 🙁

      How Domestic Courts Use International Law

    236. Nelson says:

      Cameron: You’re ill. Try switching the internet off for a month. Can you do it?

    237. Capella says:

      @ Bailey – I agree. If we are a colony then we have the right to self determination. But we’re not. We may soon become one.

    238. jfngw says:

      @Liz g

      Another issue that was raised by Peat Worrier (for ages I thought it was Warrior, I was obviously overestimating his commitment), do you want to have the treaty upheld as there are many clauses we want to escape from.

    239. PacMan says:

      Socrates MacSporran says:13 July, 2020 at 1:46 pm

      I think Nicola Sturgeon is still committed to Independence. However, given the number of “late converts” or “careerists” who have joined the SNP and then managed to get into positions of influence, between 2014 and now, I think she has become infected with the “now is not the time” faction in the upper echelons of the party.

      Why risk a nice cushy number as an SNP apparatchik – where the main object is to safeguard your own job, by pushing for an Independence referendum?

      Why rock the boat, when it might lead to England playing hard-ball and closing down Holyrood and the Scottish Government?

      No, better to put as many road-blocks to Independence in place as you can.

      We really need someone inside the SNP to “go rogue” and really stir things up. Time, however, is not on that person’s side to turn things around.

      We have only just got to the stage of successive opinion polls showing a majority in support of Independence, but, we have long had an even-bigger majority in support of continuing to be inside the EU – that can now only be achieved by going Independent.

      So, what is stopping us – other than a lack of ambition within the SNP’s upper reaches?

      Time to make that SNP Civil War real – and bring about the necessary change.

      As most of us are outsiders looking in, it is hard to know what is happening in behind the scenes of the upper echelons of the SNP. Unless anybody is secretly taping them, what we think is happening is a guess so here’s mine.

      I think NS is “infected” as you say as she effectively leads two parties. One committed to independence and one full of these johnny come lateleys and careerists who don’t want to rock the boat and jeopardize the cushy number they have. She is juggling the needs of these two factions in order to display unity and have a platform of authority for herself in order to deal with Westminster.

      This is a political problem that NS has to deal with but that is interfering with the desires of us, the grassroots supporters of independence and for those of us who want gradualism where it is plain to see that the Scottish parliament is under threat.

      I don’t know what the solution is or what to do. I do know however that the SNP is one of a number of options to deliver independence, not the sole one. It would be foolish to severely damage or undermine it. Subtle strategy is needed to circumvent this problem and this is where a trusted experienced political set of hands like Alex Salmond is needed. Is he interested in getting back into politics at this crucial time?

    240. Capella says:

      @ Breeks – If you need a ballot on it, what is / was the point of the Treaty in the first place?

      It’s about democracy. If a small cabal of politicians unilaterally declare Scotland to be independent you will get a negative reaction from Westminster, the sizeable percent of the Scottish population who don’t agree, the EU and the wider international community.
      You will not be recognised by the UN.

      Consent is required. Demonstrable consent, freely given.

      You could argue that the original Treaty was not democratic and was opposesd by the ordinary people of Scotland. However, the 2014 referendum ratified it. Was that a mistake on the part of Alex Salmond?

      No, I don’t think so. It had to be done. It is a process not a destination.

    241. Liz g says:

      Well here’s the first wave.. Brace yer self 🙂
      What I’m suggesting is exactly that.
      Of course we can’t go out on to the streets,demonstrate or rally.
      Covid isn’t stopping Brexit !
      Nicola and her team should be and continue to do exactly what they are all doing nae argument there.

      But we elect and pay for a fair few politicians more than are dealing with Covid.
      What are they all doing?
      Especially the MPs?

      We’re asking for now exactly what we’ve been askin for these last few year’s.

      A Date to work to.

      The legalities pushed on and settled.

      A Yes team and leader named.

      The rebuttal unit to actually rebutt.

      A good deal more contact with they Indy media than a now and again slot for one question at the Covid briefing .

      Some action and a lot of disruption at Westminster.

      A proper conversation with the Yes movement about our position and options in this bloody union not just the current party position, we need to know just how knowledgeable the MPs and MSPs actually are on this stuff!

      Are the Westminster MPs up to speed on what powers they actually have? I suspect they already know about all the vote losing but they seem to have forgotten just how worried Westminster was about any disruption from them,only a few year’s ago! Any plans on that?
      As someone said recently “show not tell”

      That would do for starters and none of it,not one bit of it,affects Nicola and her teams Covid response.

    242. schrodingers cat says:


      New cases of COVID-19 reported in the last 7 days.
      (6th – 12th July)

      Scotland = 63
      Wales = 72
      N Ireland = 32
      England = 4027

    243. Bailey says:

      Liz @ 9.56 – Although the Union is a reserved matter England acting as the UK didn’t actually have the authority to reserve anything. We are an equal partner. The treaty stands above the 1998 Act and everything which does not flow from the original agreement between the two partners could be construed as null and void. This has never been the union that the treaty intended. We should never have acquiesced to the reserved matters in the 1998 Act. There is no point in us challenging anything at Westminster as we are outvoted and the domestic courts including the Court of Session and Supreme Court are a non-starter. England will use the Supreme Court as an enforcer of parliamentary supremacy which we certainly didn’t acquiesce to. We will have to challenge England acting as the UK in the international courts where they will have no control.

      We will have to leave the “reserved powers” mindset behind. We are an equal partner and that treaty still stands. That previous generations were duped into believing they weren’t is of no consequence. If we wait much longer we will either have a Scottish Parliament with no legislative powers or no devolved government at all. I think that the SNP know what is coming down the track but have no fight in them.

    244. jfngw says:


      We are more akin to a vassal state than a colony, that doesn’t stop the colonialist attitude though, the supplantation of the culture with another countries and the ridicule of the ethnic culture.

      Vassal state:
      a state with varying degrees of independence in its internal affairs but dominated by another state in its foreign affairs and potentially wholly subject to the dominating state

      Looks like Scotland to me.

    245. Liz g says:

      Jfngw @ 10.19
      Yes I remember reading that too…
      I’d say *AND* 🙂
      More reasons to escape the Treaty mibbi isn’t such a bad thing to demonstrate,although I’d obviously leave it to the other partner to find and try to use them.
      But right now Westminster needs to sign a deal with the EU and if our powers within that Treaty can stop them then we should use them.
      These are not Holyrood powers which can be removed these are powers Westminster cannot touch and I for one would have no problem getting ridiculous about them
      It’s the powers in that Treaty that gives Westminster sway over us and they never hesitate to use it…well past time we did too.

    246. Polly says:

      Unfortunately I think we’re in this on our own to battle Westminster and I feel it will be a purely political fight not a legal one that will win it. After all we’ve all seen plenty of legal decisions worldwide being ignored so long as it suits political will and no amount legal argument or moral condemnation changes things, eg Chagos, Palestine. And conversely there are examples going the other way showing the hypocrisy of politicians making laws to suit their politics eg Lincoln not allowing southern states to secede from the union but welcoming West Virginia to secede from that state is one glaring example. If the political will is there anything is possible, if not you’ve no chance.

      Unlike some, I would welcome the EU becoming involved in our struggle, but doubt they ever will, likewise USA, but they don’t think of us as they did Ireland. We’re in this on our own, but I for one wish we weren’t.

    247. Roberto says:

      Masks compulsory in England July 24th.

      You can hear the rebellion starting already

    248. CameronB Brodie says:

      Treaty law is international law, which stands above national law. Human rights are inadvisable and embedded within us, and we can be separated from them legally. Westminster has a different legal opinion, an chooses to articulate authoritarian English cultural practice instead,

      Down with this sort of thing.

    249. Donald Muir says:

      I like the cut of Breeks job.

      And full support another INDY Party.

      Needs to be launched soon I would think.

    250. CameronB Brodie says:

      Oh, that’s annoying. Sorry….CAN’T be separated

    251. Brian Doonthetoon says:

      Maybe it’s time that this organisation was wheeled out of the barn, given a lick of paint and an MOT, then the sovereign people of Scotland could collectively turn the ignition key and get the vehicle moving?

    252. Colin Alexander says:


      No independence is the Unionist manifesto: Same as Sturgeon’s SNP.

    253. Polly says:

      Liz g at 10:29 pm

      Very well said. I agree they should be organising all that and leading us at this time since brexit is thundering towards us.

    254. Brian Doonthetoon says:

      Hi schrodingers cat.

      Your latest link…

      This page isn’t available
      The link you followed may be broken, or the page may have been removed.

    255. Colin Alexander says:


      When has Sturgeon’s SNP ever challenged the sovereignty of UK Parliament?

    256. Capella says:

      Vassal state:
      a state with varying degrees of independence in its internal affairs but dominated by another state in its foreign affairs and potentially wholly subject to the dominating state

      Looks like Scotland to me.

      With a Treaty of Union? Is it already null and void?

    257. Ian Brotherhood says:

      Totally disgusted at the sneering attitude of some commenters upthread towards any mention of non-violent civil disobedience.

      It’s an entirely valid and proven form of resistance.

      And that’s where we’re at now, whether we like to admit it or not. The great ‘fighting two governments’ quip which Rev awarded ‘Comment Of The Day’ has an obvious concomitant – if we have no governmental representation for our ambitions, even when one of them was elected by us specifically for that purpose, then we have, in truth, no democratic representation at all.

      Those who whine about ‘pissing the people off’ should thank their lucky stars that no significant paramilitary faction has yet emerged in Scotland. (Right now, the closest we have is the dodgy off-duty squaddies and halfwits associated with a couple of football clubs.) But civil disobedience/non-violent protest is *not* the same as a fuckin bombing campaign – those encouraging the myth that one inevitably leads to the other are either ignorant or misleading for reasons of their own.

      And heaven forfend that a serious independence movement, squaring up to one of the most brutal imperial powers of all times, should piss anyone off!

    258. Donald Muir says:

      When did it all start going oh so wrong for the SNP?

      They are unrecognizable now.

      New SNP leader and new Indy Party


      Go Stu!!!

    259. Capella says:

      Colin Alexander 10:57 pm

      When has Sturgeon’s SNP ever challenged the sovereignty of UK Parliament?

      Today – I put the link up hours ago:

      The Scottish Government has already threatened to defy the legislation being considered by the UK Government, which would also see Westminster take control of food and environmental standards once powers are returned from the EU…

      “Everyone in Scotland should be concerned at what the UK Govt is doing, put bluntly it is undermining our Parliament which was established by popular sovereignty. The response is simple to protect our parliament, to protect us from this type of attack we have to become independent.
      “We will take this on. I call on those who live in Scotland to recognise our right to choose our future. The election result in 2019 and ongoing support in the polls indicate where the mood of Scotland is. Stay united, we will win our right to choose and secure our future.”

    260. CameronB Brodie says:

      sorry, from earlier….insufficient weight. So his opinion is unsubstantial.

      It a very long time since I was constructing legal arguments, so my terminology is a bit rusty.

      The paper focuses on equality as a primary principle of human interaction. Human beings have basic needs, physical and mental, the fulfilment of which is necessary for a flourishing life.

      These needs transfer into so-called fundamental rights. Humans are entitled to a life as conscious, autonomous actors in respect to those needs. In this respect all humans are equal. It is proposed here that equality in this sense promotes a situation from which fundamental rights are derived. Thus equality is primary to and the reason why recognition of fundamental rights cannot be left to the chance of social development.

      In the preface to Law and Justice in Community the authors say:

      This work is a study in jurisprudence that considers the proper function of law to be the promotion of a context in which, without impeding one another, we can lead our lives together in peace and justice.[1]

    261. Brian Doonthetoon says:

      Hi Capella.

      Quite a few nuances in that story?

    262. Donald Muir says:

      Sturgeon out!!!

    263. schrodingers cat says:


      i agree with this, however, until we have a 50%+ vote and it is rejected ian, i dont think we have a mandate to resort to civil disobedience. you correctly point out, CD has nothing to do with violence see the poll tax protest by sheridan

    264. Tannadice Boy says:

      There is a few good points of law on here tonight but Indy was never about a point of law. It’s about a bona fide consensus and an agreement about a referendum and the subsequent result. It has to be done properly. Or else we will be trapped in an ever never ending argument about legitimacy. Do it right!

    265. Capella says:

      @ BDTT – yes a few red lines drawn. Ian Blackford’s call was quite specific I thought.

      We will take this on. I call on those who live in Scotland to recognise our right to choose our future

      Anyone willing to answer the call?

    266. Liz g says:

      Polly @ 10.51
      Thanks Polly…. I mean how difficult would it have been to address us all and say something like.

      This pandemic it such a threat to us all I’m clearing my diary/desk of any other considerations to deal with it.
      I’ll have my team of….blah…blah …blah work with me too.
      But I’m also mindful of Scotland’s other requirements and will delegate to ….yeda…yada …yada the pending issues of Brexit and Indy Ref Two which were both in the pipeline for this year and which need time and attention too..

      Then a Brexit team and an Indy team could have been working away this whole time and Nicola could have remained in the position of not being drawn on the subject.
      But we could have been a fair few steps closer to the resolution of the how and the when of ending the Union!

    267. schrodingers cat says:

      aye i noticed after i posted, facebook can be funny like that sometimes

      basically pete was laying into gove, quite entertaining

    268. Ian Brotherhood says:

      @SC –

      Thanks for response.

      There need be no action of any kind so long as government(s) understand and, more importantly, acknowledge, that the possibility of it happening is real.

      In other words, they get fair warning.

    269. Jonathan Marshall says:

      Divide and rule the British way… My only worry… As for do women prefer Sturgeon… My sisters probably doesn’t matter would vote Yes anyway… My mother definitely and as an older ex labor voter aren’t they the more important ones to convince?

    270. CameronB Brodie says:

      Again from earlier, sorry….human rights are INDIVISIBLE….

      BMC International Health and Human Rights volume 19, Article number: 14 (2019)
      Human rights’ interdependence and indivisibility: a glance over the human rights to water and sanitation

    271. crazycat says:


      A wee treat for the “just a flu” brigade:

    272. Capella says:

      @ Jonathan Marshall – yes. And it is happening. I saw a poll in the past day or two with women at 56% ? men at 50%. Since women are 52% of the population that is an important demographic to get on board. That’s why the GRA nonsense is so counter-productive IMO.

    273. Brian Doonthetoon says:

      Hi Capella at 11:18 pm

      You typed,
      “@ BDTT – yes a few red lines drawn. Ian Blackford’s call was quite specific I thought.

      We will take this on. I call on those who live in Scotland to recognise our right to choose our future

      Anyone willing to answer the call?”

      C’mon, read what I typed previously.

    274. Craig Murray says:


      You have a romantically wrong view of the uniqueness of Scotland’s position. Many, probably most, of British colonies “voluntarily” signed treaties becoming subject to Westminster. Almost all the Indian states, dozens of them, for example. Rhodes got the Ndebele to sign such a treaty. So did the Ashanti. The Act of Union does not make us not a colony. They all started with similar treaties.

    275. Capella says:

      @ crazycat – so cruel bringing a dose of reality into the covid debate! 🙂

    276. schrodingers cat says:


      in the event that a government suspends or ignores a democratic process, everything is on the table, it has to be

      its a human right to defend oneself

    277. Polly says:

      Liz g, I agree entirely. It would have stopped all yessers worrying that no action was being taken, would have been a warning to Westminster that plans were being prepared, and as you say would have taken the heat off her answering specific questions since she wants to deal with covid. She’d have been free to continue doing daily briefings and being shown in control, everyone would have benefitted. So why wasn’t something like that done is the question.

    278. Capella says:

      @ Craig Murray – So do you mean English colonies? What is this “British” you speak of? Why was India not called the United Kingdom? Did the Maastricht Treaty make the UK a colony?

      I don’t dispute that England and its parliament are uniquely devious. But – The Act of Union does not make us not a colony. – Would that stand up in the EU? or the UN?

    279. Roberto says:

      Craig Murray 11.39pm

      Spot on, infact we probably has less powers than a Colony.

    280. Ian Brotherhood says:

      @SC (11.43) –

      ‘its a human right to defend oneself’

      Kin right.

      Some of us have always viewed the whole Yes movement, fundamentally, as a Civil Rights campaign.

      The rest of the world, viewing it from outside, noting the extraordinary lack of trouble, surely interprets it as essentially ‘non-violent’. So the groundwork has already been done, by AUOB and many others, including this place.

      No-one, anywhere, can accuse the Scottish indy/’Yes’ movement of anything illegitimate. That doesn’t mean the campaign cannot openly raise the prospect of non-violent protests/actions.

      No sane strategist, in any conflict at whatever level, would remove that option from their plans.

    281. Roberto says:

      I agree, Sturgeon out.

      If she wants a job at the UN then she should go, now.

    282. Capella says:

      @ BDTT – apos – I’m going to have to read that electricscotland article tomorrow. It’s the brain – time for sleep.
      It’s been a lively evening and I thought at first I wouldn’t be hanging around long.

      Did manage a bit of Scandi noir in between spats though.

      @ Craig Murray – should have added, even if there is no difference between the ToU and a colony – we still need the Scottish people on board. Don’t you agree?

    283. terence callachan says:

      As soon as NS omething even remotely meaning ” now is the time”
      there will be never ending questioning by the media and full scale britnat media

      It’s clever that says what she says
      Keeps the heat off

      Never interrupt your opponent when they are losing

      Britnats are losing ground – LET THEM

      All you people continually harping on about NS delaying tactics need to give yourself a shake

      If ever , and I doubt we ever will, if we ever need to replace NS an election will be the time to do it

      Calm down steady yourselves

      Be ready when the drive for Indy begins

    284. terence callachan says:

      As soon as NS says something even remotely meaning ” now is the time”
      there will be never ending questioning from the britnat media

      It’s clever that she says what she says
      Keeps the heat off

      Never interrupt your opponent when they are losing

      Britnats are losing ground – LET THEM

      All you people continually harping on about NS delaying tactics need to give yourself a shake

      If ever , and I doubt we ever will, if we ever need to replace NS an election will be the time to do it

      Calm down steady yourselves

      Be ready when the drive for Indy begins

    285. CameronB Brodie says:

      terence callachan
      You appear to be another who is unaware of how the rule-of-law works, and the constitutional principles that enable constitutional justice. So please feel free fill your boots, or not.


    286. Roberto says:

      Had to laugh at the News Boris is sending his aircraft carrier to the seas off China.

      Pity his Navy doesn’t have any ships to escort it.

      China could sink the Boris Naval fleet as soon as it arrived.

    287. Dogbiscuit says:

      ‘Persaude ‘Sturgeon? There is no question as to her loyalty to the crown.
      It’s ironic that so many people in England believe Sturgeon to be pursuing Independence.
      She needs removing from office .
      She betrays us .

    288. schrodingers cat says:

      No sane strategist, in any conflict at whatever level, would remove that option from their plans.

      agreed. but i have served in countries at the very moment they descended in to civil disobedience and war. it wasnt pretty and is to be avoided as much as possible. but there comes a point were voting just no longer cuts it. however, having a full plebiscite with 50%+ is likely to help such action. CD needs popular support to succeed. this is true also of legal challenges, breeks and craig murray will have a greater chance of success in the court of public opinion and any other law court with a 55% result in a plebiscite in his hand

    289. Dogbiscuit says:

      It only takes a third of the population to resist the rest will get on board or can fuck off.
      In 1776 it was a third of the American population who fought the British.
      It turned out very well. If you don’t try you’ll never know.

    290. Dogbiscuit says:

      Plebiscite = Elephant Grass.

    291. Col.Blimp IV says:

      The old cowboy movies pre-dated, and have fallen foul of retrospectively applied, political correctness, but they did give us a universal and timeless truth regarding imperialists and their treaties … White man speaks with forked tongue.

    292. Beaker says:

      @Mike d says:
      13 July, 2020 at 9:02 pm
      “Beaker 7.59pm No! The 700.000 odd incomers to Wales voted leave. Google, Welsh Brexit vote percentage. And you’ll see who swung the welsh leave vote.”

      You are missing the point. If it is a legal case that Scotland was taken out of the EU despite the vote, then the opposite applies to Wales. They cannot say they were taken out illegally. Nor can you count votes based on place of birth.

      Voting eligibility is based on residency. You cannot have two votes in a UK wide election. It’s illegal. The 700,000 incomers were eligible to vote as Welsh residents. If they had decided to up sticks and relocate to England (or wherever) they would have still voted the same way.

      The EU Referendum was a UK wide vote and the result was not determined by constituency and therefore not by individual country. I cannot see how any court case would work anyway, and that might be why nobody has tried that avenue. If they want to try they can fucking pay for it themselves.

    293. Dogbiscuit says:

      There is no pending ‘climate emergency’ .When are people going to realise the 100% propaganda surrounding the one sided climate narrative in the media is smoke blown up their arses.
      The media one sided narrative on behalf of the real power brokers of the world.
      Only the banks can coordinate current politics because they own everybody.
      Haven’t some on here learned to be suspicious of one sided media narrative yet? Unionism ,climate’ emergency’ covid. Every country our Governments attack are first attacked by tame MSM.

    294. Dogbiscuit says:

      To the SNP shills I want to patronise the hell out of you because you’re as gullible as three year olds.

    295. CameronB Brodie says:

      The biscuit does raise some valid concerns, but his narrative is rather populist and right-wing in nature.

      Indivisibility of human rights: Unifying the two Human Rights Covenants?

    296. Dogbiscuit says:

      Awizgawny you actually believe one sided media?
      Capella why don’t you just pour yourself another drink and dream up more airy fairy nonsense for the reader to wonder at.
      Now would in fact be a good time for FM to agitate for Independence but her section 30 fixation is a losers plan and she appears to have no other options. The thread is rich with bams tonight.
      Covid infections may appear to be going up while deaths are still minuscule in comparison to seasonal flu.The goal posts are always changed from ‘flattening the curve’ to ‘beating the virus’ now vaccinations?
      Come on .I know when I’m being flanneled and I think so do most of the readers of this blog I suspect.
      Sturgeon shills in danger of losing the battle of ideas.
      Nicola Sturgeon resign you fucking midden.

    297. Dogbiscuit says:

      Cameron human rights concern everyone or they should. No one has monopoly on human rights.

    298. Dogbiscuit says:

      Red lines Hahahahahaha Ian Blackford Hahahahahahahahahahaha choke.

    299. CameronB Brodie says:


      Universalism and indivisibility

      Whilst focusing on the rights to freedoms of expression, association, assembly, and to be a human rights defender, we stand for all human rights for all, keeping the principles of universality and indivisibility as core to our work.

    300. CameronB Brodie says:

      A number of your opinions are clearly incompatible with a scientific world-view and a respect for the principle of universality, so I can’t see how you can support human rights.

      Full text.

      Social, Economic and Cultural Rights and Civil and Political Rights

      This essay deals with social, economic and cultural rights and political and civil rights within the context of international law on human rights. To this end, it reviews the contemporary conception of this issue in the light of the international system of protection, evaluating its profile, its objectives, its logic and its principles, and questioning the feasibility of an integrated vision of human rights.

      This is followed by an evaluation of the main challenges and prospects for the implementation of these rights, claiming that facing this challenge is essential to ensure that human rights will take on their central role in the contemporary order.

    301. twathater says:

      @ Bailey various posts
      —————————— Bailey says:
      13 July, 2020 at 10:34 pm

      Liz @ 9.56 – Although the Union is a reserved matter England acting as the UK didn’t actually have the authority to reserve anything. We are an equal partner. The treaty stands above the 1998 Act and everything which does not flow from the original agreement between the two partners could be construed as null and void. This has never been the union that the treaty intended
      I seem to remember Bailey , correct me if I am wrong you posted various comments previously with regards to legal matters and the ability to challenge successfully through the domestic courts the legal situation re the TOU your opinion was basically that it would be unsuccessful

      However as you say Lorna Campbell who she admits is no legal expert , but as you say has studied this extensively and asserts that the treaty taken to the UN can emphatically prove that England acting as the UK has breached the treaty numerous times by overruling its equal partner Scotland

    302. Awizgonny says:


      Fuck off.

    303. twathater says:

      @ Bailey continued
      There is another poster on the National that continuously explains how the EQUAL PARTNERSHIP is a nonsense , without going into his lengthy explanation he highlights that where Scotland , Wales , NI have devolved govts England does not , there is much much more but what he explains is rational and is along the same lines as Lorna Campbell

      If a crowdfunder was possible would you have anyone in mind to progress that avenue and would you have ANY idea of the costs

    304. CameronB Brodie says:

      I’m not looking for recognition, but I hope you’re not overlooking the wheen of constitutional and international law I’ve been linking folk to? Brexit has broken the conditions of union beyond tolerance or repair. It is only deference to tradition that binds Scotland under Westminster’s assumed authority, though this will need confirmation in international law.

      Netherlands International Law Review volume 66, pages 197–217 (2019)
      The Role of Principles and General Principles in the ‘Constitutional Processes’ of International Law

    305. CameronB Brodie says:

      Westminster is actually using English legal convention to strip Scots of active legal rights that are protected under international law. If anyone is in the least concerned about maintaining the rule-of-law, now might be the time to speak up.

      Core Socio-Economic Rights and the European Court of Human Rights

    306. Ayeright says:


      Naw don’t just fuck off. Fuck right off.

    307. Ayeright says:

      The worlds most read Scottish political blog has posters with these views.

      “NEVER vote SNP again while Sturgeon / Murrell are in charge”

      “Encourage others to stop voting SNP”

      “Call the SNP out as colonial administrators.”

      “Call out Sturgeon as a coward.”

      “Krankie MacMerkel is a charlatan.”

      Hmmm. I’ll let you make your own mind up as to the posters allegiance and support for independence.

      Comedy gold.

    308. CameronB Brodie says:

      It would be comedy gold, if Scotland wasn’t facing existential crises because our leaders apparently lack adequate appreciation of the law.

      European Convention on Human Rights
      Guide for the Civil & Public Service

    309. Ayeright says:

      CameronB Brodie

      Aye you’re always good for a laugh too.

    310. CameronB Brodie says:

      I’ve tried to give you the benefit of the doubt, but you don’t appear to be that interested in looking outside of conventional Scottish political dogma. Or British constitutional convention and tradition. So I’ll not be taking your opinion too seriously.


    311. call me dave says:


      Just woke up there refreshed and ready to face a new day only to find it was only 04:30… 🙁 …yawn.

      Radio 5 still quietly gurgling on on my bedside DAB radio as Dotun Adebayo, late night presenter, spouts on about face masks to be compulsory in England from July 24th.

      He’s not a happy man especially as non compliance will result in a £100 fine. It’s in the papers so it must be true.

      Right… glass of milk finished…back to bed.. Ah! Daton finishes his stint and signs off! 🙂

      Oh wait!

      News headlines a Prof Hunter on telling us masks don’t work yadda! yadda! 🙁

    312. robertknight says:

      Biggest obstacle to Indy is the SNP, in its current form.

      Next AUOB should start at Holyrood and finish at Bute House, because someone needs to listen to the overwhelming majority of the membership/electorate which is not obsessed with what toilet door you can walk through next time you’re in Debenhams.

      What’s the raison d’être of the SNP, will someone remind me? It seems much changed since my day – and not for the better!

    313. Robert Louis says:

      Capella at 1027pm,

      Sorry, but the vote in 2014 did NO ‘ratify’ anything, least of all the 1707 treaty of union. The question was ‘should Scotland be an independent country’.

      I understand your thinking, but it is completely false to assert the 2014 vote ratified the treaty of union. It did no such thing.

    314. Capella says:

      @ Robert Louis – ratified in the sense that people voted to remain in the UK. It is arguable that the 1707 ToU was forced on the Scottish people against their will through fraud and force of arms. Like other colonies. But when we were asked whether we wished to accept this state of affairs, the majority voted to accept. In that sense, for the first time, the Scottish people had our say.

      We’ve changed out mind. We want another vote. If that vote is denied then we are formally a colony of England. Then the situation which Craig Murray outlined becomes a reality.

    315. Bailey says:

      Twathater @ 2.29 am – You were asking about legal representation for a potential challenge in the international courts. Douglas Ross QC is an expert in both constitutional and international law and spent time as an advisor to the UN. Robert Howie QC is also an expert in both constitutional and international law. There is also a Malcolm Thomson QC who has similar expertise. They are all based in Edinburgh.

      I recall Lorna Campbell stating (I can’t remember whether it was on this site or in the National) that she had looked into it and had a couple of QCs in mind. I think that Professor Alf Baird has also come to the conclusion (and posts in the National) that this type of challenge may work. We’d probably need over £200,000 just for starters and the costs would climb as it went on. As far as I am aware, you don’t have to pay everything upfront. The bills would come in piecemeal. If it looked like we were losing, we could call it quits, but I think we would win. If it gathered pace, we would receive more donations from the public. England’s hold over us is nothing more than smoke and mirrors. If challenged outside of the domestic courts which the British Establishment hold sway over, the mirror would smash into a thousand pieces. England are acting ultra vires and don’t have a leg to stand on.

    316. brian lucey says:

      I always find them using reading here that people refer back to the declaration of arbroath and the treaty of Union
      Whatever about the moral or even arguably the legal elements of these the reality is that Scotland is part of the United Kingdom. You’ll have to find a way out of this which is is more or less legal within the UK in order that other countries will feel comfortable recognising your independence.
      Wishing that it were not so doesn’t make it different

      A straight forward declaration that is a double majority of popular votes and seats in the assembly in 2021 4 avowedly independent candidates be acceptable internationally. Referendum is also a way forward but it will have to be one which has broad within Scotland acceptance as a plebescite

      Hacking back to something 400 or 800 years ago simply makes the Scottish independence movement look like a bunch of amateurs

    317. Capella says:

      @ BDTT – have now read the electric Scotland article. I did read this before but it’s worth a re-read. This para is interesting:

      Since the new national institutions were initially kept under close control by London, it was necessary to retain a Scottish institution with international connections and the will to use them if it should become necessary.

      The necessity was shown on numerous occasions, because the London stranglehold on the new Scottish Parliament and Government (initially called an “Executive”), and the insulting transfer of devolved decision making back to Westminster under the so-called Sewel motions, was a fair indication that, without international compulsion and the threat of sanctions, devolution would never have happened.

      And so Scotland-UN continued to act as Scotland’s eyes and ears abroad on important issues.

      This is what NS and IB are referring to in the article I linked to isn’t it – the attempt by London to remove powers of the Scottish Parliament.

    318. Roberto says:

      Capella seems to have taken over Wings Over Scotland with her.

      “Vote for Nicola” Campaign.

      Is she a paid SNP troll to push their hated policies and Anti-Indy message through?

      Capella, have you not got knitting or some other useful task you could be getting on with, rather than trying to infect the minds of true Indy supporters?

      Knitting your own face mask is very popular at the moment Capella.

      Just a thought.

    319. Sensibledave says:

      Capella … reference Roberto’s comment at 8.14

      It appears you are now “an SNP troll”!

      Having been regularly accused by some of the numpties here of being 77th, MI5, a “yoon”, anti-immigrant, fa****, r*****, etc … simply because I vote for a different party and happened to have been born in a different country … I rather suspect, as is the current way, the mob will now be out to “cancel” you.

      6 years later, I am still here on my mission to educate and inform though.

      Stay strong and don’t take no s**t from the mentally feeble such as Roberto.

    320. Bailey says:

      Brian Lucey @ 7.30 am – What makes you think that having the treaty sounded in the international courts wouldn’t be legal? You talk of candidates standing on an independent platform being acceptable. What makes you think others aren’t thinking of doing that? If we had the treaty sounded and rescinded at the UN, what makes you think that the “international community” wouldn’t accept us? The EU will uphold the rule of law. Your other point was about a referendum. That route is being blocked by the British State. It is perfectly legal to have the treaty sounded in law as it is still extant and you obviously know nothing about that.

      I’ve seen your snide anti-Scottish comments on other sites. From what I have read on other blogs you are neither Scottish nor live here.

    321. Edinburgh Council have put up a plaque calling Henry Dundas a racist,

      as a good Winger should i decided to ignore the media and white liberal Wokeists and check the facts,

      seems he was the council/lawyer for Joseph Knight ,an African slave brought from Jamaica to Edinburgh, in which Henry Dundas secured his freedom and established the principle that Scots law would not uphold the institution of slavery,

      plus historians say that Dundas’s role in the abolition of slavery has been misunderstood.

      Oxford scholar Brian Young, a professor of intellectual history in the 18th century, notes that in 1792, the motion for immediate cessation of the slave trade was heading for certain defeat,

      by inserting the word “gradual” into the motion, Dr Young says Dundas ensured a successful vote for the ultimate abolition of the trade in slaves`.

      Obviously what I read could be wrong, would need some coroboration from primary sources,

      but certainly seems Edinburgh Council are throwing Dundas under a bus/tram is a grand display of wokist virtue signaling.

      It sounds like the same wokists and the lazy/hopeless journalists that attacked JK for being a transphobe without reading her letter.

      as Orwell said,

      `The most effective way to destroy people is to deny and obliterate their own understanding of their history. `

    322. Capella says:

      an SNP Troll – I will have a special badge knitted. So proud 🙂

    323. Ottomanboi says:

      Covidistas are not just independence wreckers they seem intent on destroying the fundamental societal fabric. Orwellian is an understatement.
      The dark state political class and its ‘influencers’ , here, there and everywhere can go hang.
      There will certainly be enough stout rope.
      Go party, before ‘chief medical advisers’ proscribe being human.
      Vive l’Humanité!
      Happy 14 july!

    324. North chiel says:

      “ Brian Lucey @ 0751” . Hacking back to something 400-800 years ago makes the Scottish Independence movement look like a bunch of amateurs” . The so called “ mother of Parliaments don’t seem to have a problem “ hacking back” as regards “ Henry the eighth laws” or “ the Magna Carta “ do they ??

    325. robertknight says:


      “It is arguable that the 1707 ToU was forced on the Scottish people against their will through fraud”.

      How many were swayed by the fraudulent claims of Better Together and a pro-Union media in 2014?

      Robinson and his “he didn’t answer”.

      “Lead us don’t leave us” – look how that worked out.

      “What’s the process for removing our EU citizenship? Voting Yes” – Bitter Th’gither.

      “The Vow” – Courtesy of the Daily Redcoat.

      The list is long…

    326. Ian McCubbin says:

      We have 6 mandates, Nicola has no interest in Independence now.
      None of current MPs or MSPs have will to stand up.
      The legal arguments are irrefutable, I won’t rehearse them again.
      As other contributions have made clear now and aftermath of Covid is the perfect storm with mess UK gov are making of everything.
      If no self determination claim now or in near future, it has gone. God help Scotland and its people.

    327. Capella says:

      @ robertknight – quite so. We have to do better in countering the stream of propaganda from the MSM. Chomsky has pointed out that states are now obliged to manufacture consent through PR and MSM. We have the internet and canvassing.

    328. Davie Oga says:

      Capella 7:24am

      “We’ve changed out mind. We want another vote. If that vote is denied then we are formally a colony of England. Then the situation which Craig Murray outlined becomes a reality.”

      A vote has been denied. Twice!

    329. Craig Murray says:

      Scott Finlayson

      Dundas was a gradualist when it came to the abolition of slavery. He thought abolishing slavery was desirable but was unwilling to take any risk to his own career as a highly successful politician within the UK and “manager” of Scotland, in order to do anything about it.

      Remind you of anybody?

    330. Famous15 says:

      Cultural imperialism and distorted history are important in subjugation of people as is threatened genocide.

      That is why I cannot get excited about a Scottish statutory body overwhelmingly staffed by incomers naming osprey chicks after Vera and Tom when our capital and largest city are stuffed with street and place named after King George and Prince Frederick etc.

      Make a
      point about these matters and you are met with ridicule BUT that is also part of the subjugation. I stopped dwelling on these matters when I left a Glasgow school where we sang Jerusalem every morning. Why? Because it is a “squirrel “ to the much more serious way in which Scotland is robbed daily and we are cheekily told we are spongers !

      Independence is normal and has no new normal. Come on! Get us there.

    331. Ottomanboi says:

      Scot Finlayson 08:33
      The process of systematically obliterating or editing the facts of history led Hitler to chillingly remark “who remembers the Armenians?”
      Various Turkish régimes have been progressively obliterating all signs of Armenian civilization in Anatolia for decades. No international outcry. Remove the physical signs and memory begins to fade.
      Keeping those physical signs and memories, warts and all, in tact is what nationalism is essentially about. Humans cannot afford to be too picky.

    332. The Isolator says:

      Ian McCubbin @ 8.42

      There remains back pressure from the grassroots of the party to push on with Independence even through the Covid situation and at the moment I’m hoping and hoping that the pressure continues rising all the way to the top and that Brexit will be the event that blows the union apart.

      Either NS knows this and is keeping her powder dry while in the EU “loop” (god help us all) or her strategy will fall apart in the Autumn.The economic consequences of Brexit will either make us or break us as a Nation.I’m hoping for some important strategic moves from people like my own MP Joanna Cherry soon.

    333. Ottomanboi says:

      On the subject of fading memory what has become of the Glasgow School of Art scandal?
      Buckets of cosmeticising whitewash chucked over it by those accountable no doubt.
      Systems rot from the head.
      Phew! what a stink in the state of Scotland.

    334. vlad (not that one) says:

      @Capella 17:59

      To summarise: NS told Marr that now is not the time.

    335. jfngw says:

      If the Treaty of Union was taken to any modern day court it would be thrown out as having been imposed by bribery, threat and against the well-being of the population of the country as it impoverished them. It is a corrupt treaty.

    336. Effijy says:

      I received this last night but how strange that the UK media don’t think it’s worth mentioning?
      Maybe they have had some of tax payer’s money too, oh yes they do via the BBC licence money
      Paid by 80 year old pensioners.

      This is how corrupt this government is and no one is bringing them to book ?

      Thanks to Gordon Young, Counter Fraud Dept, for compiling the list.
      The Tories have stolen too much too quick.
      Surely the papers will run with this.

      “£252m of public money given to Ayanda Capital, registered in Mauritius for tax dodging, to supply PPE that never appeared.

      £186m of public money given to Uniserve Ltd of Essex, the UK’s largest privately owned logistics and global trade management company, to supply PPE that never appeared.

      £116m of public money given to P14 Medical Ltd of Liverpool, which had liabilities exceeding assets by £485,000 in December 2019 with just £145 in the bank, for PPE that never appeared.

      £108m of public money given to PestFix, with 16 employees and net assets of £19,000, for PPE that never appeared.

      £14.2m and a subsequent £93.2m of public money given to Clandeboye Agencies Ltd, a confectionery wholesaler in Co Antrim, for PPE that never appeared.

      £40m of public money given to Medicine Box Ltd of Sutton-in-Ashfield, despite having assets of just £6,000 in March, for PPE that never appeared.

      £32m and a subsequent £16m of public money given to Initia Ventures Ltd, filed for dormancy in January this year, for PPE that never appeared.

      £28m of public money given to Monarch Acoustics Ltd of Nottingham, makers of shop and office furniture, for PPE that never appeared.

      £25m of public money given to Luxe Lifestyle Ltd, to supply garments for biological or chemical protection to the NHS. According to Companies House, the business was incorporated by fashion designer Karen Brost in November 2018. It appears to have no employees, no assets and no turnover.

      £18.4m of public money given to Aventis Solutions Ltd of Wilmslow, with just £322 in assets, for PPE that never appeared.

      £10m of public money given to Medco Solutions Ltd, incorporated on 26 March (three days after lockdown) with a share capital of just £2, for PPE that never appeared.

      £1.1m of public money given to Bristol shoemaker Toffeln Ltd, had seemingly never supplied any PPE whatsoever in the past, for PPE that never appeared.

      £825,000 of public money given to MGP Advisory, described as a venture and development capital business that was in danger of being struck off the companies register for failing to file accounts, for no one knows what…

      Meanwhile the nurses and carers, of whom over 300 have died whilst trying to save over 65,000 lives that have now been lost, had to resort to wearing bin bags.”

      Thanks for sharing

    337. DundeeDancer says:

      Sign up for Scottish independance, I have will you?

    338. Breeks says:

      Bailey says:
      14 July, 2020 at 7:30 am
      Twathater @ 2.29 am – You were asking about legal representation for a potential challenge in the international courts. Douglas Ross QC is an expert in both constitutional and international law and spent time as an advisor to the UN. Robert Howie QC is also an expert in both constitutional and international law. There is also a Malcolm Thomson QC who has similar expertise. They are all based in Edinburgh…

      That, in my opinion would be the best money that Scotland the Nation has ever spent, and never more timely.

      Truth be known, given blood soaked history and myth of the British Empire, I think it would begin the most sensational Constitutional Test Case the modern International Community has ever seen, and a test case that would restore to Scotland some long absent prestige and integrity that was stolen from a hardy people over 300 years ago and never returned.

      I’m not a Lawyer, but as a layman, we seem to have a whole jewellery box of constitutional advantages; the world renowned celebrity of the Declaration of Arbroath, the Papal recognition of 1328, and the Edinburgh/Northampton Treaty of 1328.. What are these, if not the modern nation of Scotland’s birth certificate signed in triplicate? Ask the question, “does this prove the existence of Scotland?”, and three times you have the answer, yes.

      So having proved Scotland exists, we must ask whether anything has happened down the ages to make the Nation of Scotland ‘not’ exist.

      Let us, sovereign citizens, who live and die in a Scottish nation, embrace every argument under the sun that Scotland doesn’t exist, and watch every one of those arguments crumble to nonsense.

      The SNP, Scottish Government has stalled to long on Independence. Scotland needs to coalesce quickly around a new initiative to save ourselves from the plundering of another Anglo-assault on Scotland’s resources post Brexit. That’s December by the way…. Next year, too late. Our interface for trade with Europe may well be wrecked by then. The wreckers are already on their way.

      It will be not be enough if that new coalescence is purely political in nature. It requires a political component, a grass roots component, but most of all it needs a legal / constitutional component, and all three of those components need to be firing on all cylinders.

    339. Johnny says:

      Awizgonny’s first comment above is a lot of bollocks aimed at deflection.

      No-one (or hardly anyone) seriously thinks now that there is going to be any kind of indyref campaign before May 2021. Point is taken that *literally* now, there is a health crisis to be dealt with that precludes much action.

      But this business of pretending that people who want to see some sort of action *sometime soon* (within a year, perhaps) mean that it has to be literally this minute is disingenuous in the extreme and is merely a way to try and shut down debate on timing. People who can see the way this is going (i.e. that public SNP utterances suggest that the pandemic will be long gone, and still no indyref) are dismissed as if in fact they are only thinking of today and are short-sighted. Disgraceful bollocks.

      There are external factors, yes, but if we have not gotten a good grip on the pandemic by then there’s questions to be asked.

      If we are to suspend campaigning any time there *might*
      be a flu pandemic, I guess that’s politics done now.

      In that vein, if there’s to be no campaigning at all for the foreseeable, should we just cancel the 2021 election at the same time? Or is it only things that you want to put off that are to be cancelled? If it’s okay to campaign for Holyrood by early next year, then it should be fine to campaign for an indyref by then or just after, no?

      Or is it only things you want to be put off that will be covered by this campaigning ban?

    340. Julia Gibb says:

      @Scot Finlayson

      A Lawyer does not attract new clients by losing a case!
      The Arguement that Dundas was driven by anything other than reputation enhancement is nonsense.

      Take a look at the role of Dundas in pursuit of Thomas Muir for sedition. That alone is cause to pull hid statue down.

    341. Effijy says:

      Had to laugh at the News Boris is sending his aircraft carrier to the seas off China.

      China makes plans to produce 10 Billion Carry Out containers from Bojo’s
      Aircraft carried that has no aircraft or escort ships available.

      English sailors would have a better chance of intimidation if they were to take on
      A state of the art Tank with a pea-shooter that has no peas.

    342. Dan says:

      Capella says: at 8:46 am

      We have to do better in countering the stream of propaganda from the MSM. Chomsky has pointed out that states are now obliged to manufacture consent through PR and MSM. We have the internet and canvassing.

      As you know conventional Broadcasting is a power reserved to Westminster ergo…

      The Television Will not Be Revolutionised!

      So it’s down to us, the YES movement, which has developed to be a significant force in countering the pish emanating from our Controversial State broadcaster aka The BBC, and the wider MSM through what they have the brass neck to call “news”papers.

      There’s a huge array of Pro-Indy information already accrued and available which can be distributed all over Scotland by being shared on the internet, or delivered through doors by local activists.
      Covid does not stop this happening now.
      I’ve currently got several Scotland the Brief books working there way around the houses in my area.
      Most btl readers will already be aware of this but for any new lurkers.

      There is also an ever increasing amount of info-graphics on Colin Dunn’s site. Menu at top right of homepage has different libraries of stuff, all of which can be printed out and

      Or his twitter feed.

      Also, don’t forget once a month to look out yer scythe and cut back the tumbleweed field to check for rebuttal activity at.

      Of course all this is only really of use if there is going to be “a proper event” to aim for, as most people are not that politically active in their everyday lives and will only wake up in significant sustained numbers during a campaign, in whatever form that takes.

    343. shug says:

      Effijy 9:36
      have you checked for connection to conservative MPs

    344. Capella says:

      The Daily Record has a front page scoop on the new Alliance party which David Thompson “SNP stalwart” is planning to launch soon. The fact that The Record is headlining it is suspicious in itself. Did they have a front page splash on the ISP?

    345. callmedave says:

      Kaye decides to go on ‘childcare and the cancelling of the commitment by councils to start the 1140hrs promised by Scots Gov’

      The councils have already got the money given by SGov.

      But wait! Lots of women calling in to say that in many councils it is still going to happen but other saying what about us.

      A surprised Kaye quickly shreds her script and turns the debate into a ‘donald duck’ post code luck kinda thing, oh the unfairness of it all she suggests etc etc…what else could she do? 🙂 Good old auntie wie a kilt.

      So it seems that the 1140hrs of childcare will go ahead for many and the other councils will work towards it where, for example due to the virus, buildings have yet to be finished or adapted and final recruiting completed.

      Fair cheered me up. It’s a vote winner.

    346. liz says:

      @capella that’s not a challenge, that’s a reiteration of what she’s being saying for ages.

      I urge the people of Scotland……what the hell does she think we’ve been doing by giving them umpteen mandates which they refuse to use.
      We, the people, cannot fire the starting gun, she can.

      If you think that’s a challenge, then I see why you still have faith in her.
      That’s just political waffle

    347. Sinky says:

      Scotland In Union’s Prof Hugh Pennington exposed for running Scotland down in Scotsman letter yesterday.

      A friend tells me he sent a short letter to Scotsman debunking Pennington’s claims but needless to say it wasn’t published as you can’t undermine national treasures.

    348. Johnny says:

      Capella @ 10:17am:

      Why’s that “suspicious”?

      Dave Thompson isn’t the most high-profile of ex-MSPs, perhaps, but there is no doubt he has something of a profile in certain circles at least. At the very least, someone who has been in the SNP for 50+ years leaving to join or form another party is quite significant because it’s a long term party loyalist leaving.

      You invoke the idea that this is suspicious because the ISP didn’t get similar coverage previously, but would probably have thought it “suspicious” then if they had done.

    349. Brian Doonthetoon says:

      Hi Capella.

      The National has the story as well.

    350. Brian Doonthetoon says:

      Hi Capella.

      It’s also in The Courier.

    351. Alec Lomax says:

      George Galloway’s back to save the Union.

    352. Roberto says:


      You are an SNP Troll.

      Why do you think people would find that so astonishing?

      The SNP are as alien to the Yes Movement as the Tories are.

      The Tories will no doubt have their own Wings Trolls.

      As will the SNP,,,like yourself.

      The SNP are an unrecognisable shadow of the 2011 Party that lead us into indyRef1.

      As is the current leadership.

      As Craig Murray mentioned above about Scotland having a “Manager” many years ago, we seem to have slipped silently back into those dark days.

      Scotland is screaming out for an enthusiastic leader who eats sleeps drinks Scottish Independence.

      And in Sturgeon you will see the leader of a Devolutionist Administration with no intention of fighting for Scottish Independence,,,NONE.

    353. Capella says:

      @ Johnny – suspicious because it is on the front page of the DR as was The Vow. If they were really excited about new independence parties they would have feature the ISP weeks ago. So they have another agenda.

      @ BDTT – yes I’ve just read it and it is more or less the same as the DR version. Probably Dave Thomson’s press release.

      I would have posted it here but the most interesting bits are the comments and archive doesn’t capture them. If anyone can read the article then I recommend the comments.

    354. schrodingers cat says:

      i have seen at 2 guys saying they are going to stand as indies on the list.

      didnt make the papers tho’

      same as the isp party

      no conspiracy needed

    355. Roberto says:


      If you are going to be the self appointed Cheerleader (Troll) of Nicola Sturgeon on Wings, then expect to be shot at.

      Sturgeon is Toxic when it comes to her commitment to Scottish Independence and the very dangerous Bills she is forcing through the Scottish Parliament.

    356. Capella says:

      @ SC – I wasn’t suggesting a conspiracy. Just everyday MSM mischief making.

    357. Republicofscotland says:

      Yes, what do we make of this new Alliance for Independence party headed up by former SNP MSP Dave Thompson. Is this new party a covertly affiliated SNP party,or worse still a Whitehall one, created to thwart the ISP party and to hoover up list votes, and will just follow SNP policies instead of helping to push the SNP down the independence road.

      I suppose the same could be said of the ISP, however giving our list votes to the SNP just wastes them and allows more unionist MSP’s into the Holyrood chamber. We have decide which new independence minded party that we’ll give our list votes to.

    358. Capella says:

      @ Republicofscotland – yes – the DR has a photo of Dave Thompson with Alex Salmond, suggesting they may be in cahoots. Maybe they are? Or maybe not.

    359. Roberto says:

      Wings Over Scotland.


      Wings Over Capella.

    360. Dogbiscuit says:

      Capella what the hell would you know about reality?

    361. jfngw says:

      Oh dear Jackson ‘The Scream’ Carlaw is looking like a tumshie again, now he is probably going to support compulsory face masks in shops as his great leader has decreed. But don’t worry he will be able to brush it off with the aplomb of a used car salesman after he has been caught over egging the quality of his product.

      I see rumours that a Dani Something has landed a prime TV contract to present a BBC programme. Just rewards from the establishment, if it’s on BBC Scotland channel we can count the viewers in their hundreds, cheaper surely to just send her round to the individual houses to tell them about the content.

    362. Dogbiscuit says:

      Call me Dave masks provide a false sense of security.
      You’ve given up your freedom but don’t feel safe.

    363. Dogbiscuit says:

      Digital covenant is a joke. Another pointless petition.
      Whoever dreamed it up deserves a job in government.

    364. schrodingers cat says:


      this probably wont be the last indy list party to declare,

      and while the snp will argue for snp 1/2 (no option) what will decide which indy list party will be decided by celebrity endorsment, eg salmond etc.

      interesting to note, no one of any consequence has backed the isp

    365. Willie says:

      Just looked at the website.

      As a vehicle to assist the drive to independence a list party like the ISP most certainly enhance the Scottish Parliament arithmetic. By way of example 953,000 SNP list votes secured 4 seats whilst 953,000 ISP list votes would deliver around 34 seats. The logic of fist vote SNP, second vote Independence Party is compelling.

      But as previous commentators have said the Scottish Parliament is a creation of Westminster, or Westminster would like to have it that way. Similarly, the granting of a Section 30 is the creation of Westminster and the acceptance of this disregards Scotland’s history, its ancient sovereignty, the validity of the treaty of the Act of Union, the illegality of the Westminster government’s actions in ripping Scotland out of the EU against international law, ( and incidentally the expressed will of the people.)

      That the SNP have turned away from Scotland’s rights to assert sovereignty, mount legal challenge both here and abroad, preferring instead the yoke of subsidiarity, the concept of an list Independence Party becomes even more relevant. Lists can grow and the the Yes movement is greater, much greater than a coterie of comfortable complacent time servers going through the motions in what they think are devolved administration sinecures.

      New Labour in Scotland thought it was invincible. Like ferrets in a sack they came to see it as a right to be in paid public office. The current SNP leadership could in the not too distant future find themselves in the same boat.

      Time for change, time for progress.

    366. Johnny says:


      Why do you think the Record has mentioned Dave Thompson and not the ISP?

      I am not trying to be contrarian here, I just don’t understand why you think it’s “suspicious” to mention one and not the other, and what the “agenda” could be?

      If Dave and the ISP are motivated by the same thing (to push the pace on indyref 2 harder) then the only difference can be that they think one is more significant than the other (for whatever reason, maybe his slightly higher profile).

      Maybe they think he has more chance of success (I am not sure what I think personally but I don’t move in these circles so….) and that’s why they have mentioned it? Doesn’t that make it more “newsworthy”?

    367. Dogbiscuit says:

      Capella is it only covid headlines you believe?

    368. Dogbiscuit says:

      Effigy following the money good.

    369. Bill McLean says:

      I understand the frustration expressed here by certain contributors. I understand the opposition to some SNP policies. I’d like to know what some know, or pretend to know about our First Minister being a plant. I’d like people to be upfront and be more tolerant of those with whom they disagree. Try to be polite even with the trolls and those from south of the border who post here to make mischief and reinforce their tenuous and flimsy feelings of superiority. Many who post here have been affected in some degree by all of the above. I’m not critical of the doubters per se but i’d like them to answer my question – would you rather be governed by the SNP and Nicola Sturgeon, or Westminster – if it’s Westminster you want you are doing a great deal to help them acheive their goal – total subjugation of Scotland!

    370. Ian Brotherhood says:

      ‘Most activists who perform civil disobedience are scrupulously non-violent, and willingly accept legal penalties. The purpose of civil disobedience can be to publicize an unjust law or a just cause; to appeal to the conscience of the public; to force negotiation with recalcitrant officials; to “clog the machine” (in Thoreau’s phrase) with political prisoners; to get into court where one can challenge the constitutionality of a law; to exculpate oneself, or to put an end to one’s personal complicity in the injustice which flows from obedience to unjust law —or some combination of these. While civil disobedience in a broad sense is as old as the Hebrew midwives’ defiance of Pharaoh, most of the moral and legal theory surrounding it, as well as most of the instances in the street, have been inspired by Thoreau, Gandhi, and King.’

    371. schrodingers cat says:

      Willie says:
      Just looked at the website.

      As a vehicle to assist the drive to independence a list party like the ISP most certainly enhance the Scottish Parliament arithmetic.
      electoral arithmetic? no question, figures dont lie, tactical voting will pay dividends.

      whether the isp is the party to lead the charge, the jury is still out

    372. Capella says:

      @ Johnny – I don’t know. But I can speculate.

      1)The ISP is a party set up by two women. Many people find it impossible to join a party set up by two women. It flies against the proper order of nature. It must be a “wimmins” party.
      But here is a MAN setting up a party. That’s newsworthy.

      2) The ISP has set itself in opposition to the GRA reforms. The DR may not want to highlight that issue just yet.

      3) The Alliance party may be a front for something else yet to be revealed.

      4) None of the above – it’s just a slow news day and they just happened to put it on the front page.

      @ SC – Gordon Indycar Ross has joined the ISP hasn’t he? Not famous enough?

    373. schrodingers cat says:

      @ SC – Gordon Indycar Ross has joined the ISP hasn’t he? Not famous enough?
      so has sean clerkin

      google him

      btw the snp is led by a women, they now have 55% support in the polls.

      hint, not all of these 55% are women?

      you painting the isp as men hating feminists isnt going to help them win the race for list votes?

    374. Mialuci says:

      I am an Independence supporter, the SNP can allways rely on my vote no matter what.
      Some human beings are so stupid, they will argue about every little thing, I switched off years ago when it comes to the ins and outs of politics.
      Its no wonder so many of our young people don’t bother to vote, and I for one cannot blame them.
      I will allways use my vote for Independence, but don’t expect me to listen to all the tripe, life is far to short to be bothered with all that squabbling about nothing

    375. schrodingers cat says:

      Good afternoon folks.
      What shall we get angry about today?

      The choice is vast, choose wisely.. After all it’s what some people live for.

    376. Gary45% says:

      There’s too much speculation going on here about the Alliance Party.
      Wait until they have their official launch then make your minds up.
      Ill say no more about it.

    377. Dogbiscuit says:

      Brian Lucy. You’re a great straight faced comedian.

    378. Capella says:

      @ SC – I’m not. Don’t you know I’m Nicola Sturgeon’s No. 1 fan and SNP Troll? Keep up SC.

    379. Maybe Nichola was reminded by mi5 of what happened to Willie Macrae Hilda Murrell and David Kelly ??? And. I wonder if Nichola,s husband is related to Hilda Murrell ???

    380. Dogbiscuit says:

      Bill Maclean as for as I see it there is no difference between SNP and Tories. They work for the same people. Criminal bank cartels.
      Mialuci. Keep having simple minded fun in lala land.

    381. Johnny says:


      Ok, fair enough.

      We don’t have the info to go on to do more than speculate, I suppose.

      But my suspicion is:

      i) he used to be an MSP;
      ii) has been in the party for 50 years

      are what shapes the “newsworthy” aspect of the story as far as DR is concerned.

      This said, in the absence of a comment from the editor of the DR in here, we would only know if these factors were determining as I think if there was also a party set up by a woman who had also been an MSP and in the party for 50 years and that was being ignored at the same time.

    382. Breeks says:

      call me dave says:
      14 July, 2020 at 5:03 am

      Just woke up there refreshed and ready to face a new day only to find it was only 04:30… ? …yawn.

      It’s light a 4:30 in the morning currently. I think it’s the best part of the day. The world hasn’t got moving and the light seems white and clean somehow. It’s like lockdown before there was lockdown.
      If your work allows you to, you can have have your shift in before breakfast, and the decks cleared by dinner time, and all day long you’ve felt prepared, (even if you’re not), because you were up and about when everybody else was sleeping. It feels like you stole a march on them anyway.

    383. Johnny says:

      Mialuci: hahhaha! People who “don’t care about the ins and outs of politics” always hang around politics blogs 🙂

    384. Breeks says:

      *half your shift….

    385. Dogbiscuit says:

      Awizgawny and Ayewrite .You pair of hilarious bastards would have to hove into view while I’m on a bam hunt.
      It’s interesting those weirdos only pop up here when La Poisson is being criticised. You crawling bastards.
      Your dear leader is a phoney a rodeo clown .She gives not a fuck for Scotland.

    386. Dogbiscuit says:

      Pac-Man the make up of the SNP as a party is entirely down to Sturgeon and Murrell who control entry to the party so blow it out your ass.

    387. CameronB Brodie says:

      Perhaps we are making things a bit unnecessarily complicated, the first duty in law and public policy is to DO NO HARM. But then we’d need to find a court in Britain than isn’t bent and simply a tool of power.

      Scotland is finished as a nation, unless we find leadership with political acumen, and a respect for the rule-of-law. That’s law, not British constitutional conventions and traditions, which the FM appears to consider binding and sacrosanct.

    388. Roberto says:

      A minute after midnight January 1st 2021,

      This is the day Scotland dies.

      If in doubt look it up

      The day when London can do as it pleases with us,,,like a poor abused child, we are helpless.

      Isn’t that right Nicola?

    389. Bill McLean says:

      Dog Biscuit – allegations only – is that all you have? You are one of the very suspect contributors here. There you are i’m just like you – I can make allegations too.

    390. Dogbiscuit says:

      Ayeright Awizgonny and K1 you are failing in your mission.Sturgeon sends you on a fools errand.
      You undermine the Independence movement not those who have the wit to ask questions.
      By the way when did ‘flattening the curve’ become permanent suspension of human rights?
      Fascism does not always come with a swastika on a pea patterned combat uniform.
      Some times it power dresses like Sturgeon or Merkel.
      The city of London fascists wear pinstripe.

    391. Dogbiscuit says:

      Bill Maclean just compare their covid policies and observe Sturgeons inaction re Independence. Of course Im suspect. Suspicion is the spirit of our age.

    392. Bill McLean says:

      Dog Biscuit – Clearl lacking comprehension of what my first post and the latter,to you, meant!

    393. Ian Brotherhood says:

      All over Scotland there are women like Nell McCafferty. They may not be as well known known – yet – but perhaps we should be looking to them to provide the impetus the indy movement needs rather than any politico.

    394. CameronB Brodie says:

      I’m somewhat alarmed and appalled by the apparent ignorance of the law displayed by the Scottish government. And a tad disappointed at their willingness to submit to British constitutional convention.

      Full text.

      The concept of indivisibility has been an important subject of academic inquiry in the field of international human rights law. Attestations around the interrelationship of civil and political rights, on the one hand, and economic and social rights, on the other, have somewhat turned away its appeal.

      The present article takes this discussion further by drawing upon the Convention on the Rights of Persons with Disabilities (CRPD) adopted in 2006.1 This article suggests that the CRPD has opened up a new understanding of the indivisibility of human rights. The Convention has pushed boundaries as its interpretation directly undercuts any attempt to apply the division into civil and political and economic and social rights.

      The mutual inextricability of both sets of rights turns out to be an integral feature of the rights protected by this Convention.

    395. CameronB Brodie says:

      Sorry Rev., I’m not meaning to swamp the thread. That was actually an insight into the INDIVISIBILITY of human rights, viewed through the lens of the Convention on the Rights of Persons with Disabilities. The disabled are likely to be one of the demographics hit hardest by Berxit, so I thought it appropriate.

    396. CameronB Brodie says:

      I see the Rev. beat me to the punch. 🙂

    397. Polly says:

      Effijy 9.36am

      Thank you for posting the list of contracts given out by he government. Reading about most of them in the news was bad enough but seeing them lined up like that is still shocking and there’s one I was of which I was completely unaware.

    398. David R says:

      If this is the case does it really matter who we vote for in the list if the SNP is in government. The only way Scotland will get another chance to choose it’s constitutional future is if it removes the SNP and replaces it with a pro-indy, no strings attached party. They’ve become too comfortable and arrogant as the party of power.

      Replacing them will send more of a shock wave through UK politics than putting a few more SNP career clown politicians on the gravy train in Holyrood and Westminster.

    399. twathater says:

      @ Bailey thank you for your response and the positivity (possibly) of what the outcome would be , can I ask , there is something in my mind that remembers that you had or have legal training and I think that was endorsed by a later comment by Ian Mhor can you confirm or refute my belief

      As Breeks has opined as the winner of HAILED comment of the day , the establishing and ratification of our sovereignty through the ICJ and the UN not only is IMPERATIVE it is an absolute game changer , to do so ensures that NOTHING can be done or enacted to US by WM without the explicit agreement and consent of OUR SP and our elected representatives , that would effectively HALT ANY and ALL actions due to be carried out including Brexshit and the theft of powers

      The SG have to be FORCED to do this on our behalf the question is how , it is one thing starting a crowdfunder for a collective action but this is paramount to the safety and security of Scottish citizens and will impact on ALL of us young and old for the future of our nation so it rightfully should be actioned and financed by OUR GOVERNMENT

      Petitions are one way but I honestly don’t trust the organisations running them as they are profit driven , suggestions would be grateful as time is of the essence

    400. Andy says:

      I picked up on that as well and to be honest I was gobsmacked. Nicola Sturgeon openly admitted that she wont campaign for Independence anytime within the near or middle term future probably not during her term as FM. I cant see or think of any other way of interpreting what she said.
      I can no longer in good conscience speak up for the Scottish Government or SNP. She was my one best hope for Independence within my lifetime. If another party wants to step up with a REAL intent to truly fight for Independence then Im on board.

    401. Andy says:

      This idea of a second party has to be done carefully and with consideration. Do not go after the first vote just dont because that is a sure fire way to end up with pro yoon seats. Get as many second vote seats as possible and hold the Scottish Governments feet to the fire. That I can go along with.

    402. Confused says:

      the rev often makes musical references – am I the only person who notices?

      – good lyrics, no?
      Beat surrender –
      Come on boy, come on girl
      Succumb to the beat surrender
      All the things that I care about (are packed into one punch)
      All the things that I’m not sure about (are sorted out at once)

      And as it was in the beginning, so shall it be in the end
      That bullshit is bullshit, it just goes by different names

      All the things that I shout about (but never act upon)
      All the courage and the dreams that I have(but seem to wait so long)
      My doubt is cast aside, watch phonies run to hide
      The dignified don’t even enter in the game

      And if you feel there’s no passion
      No quality sensation
      Seize the young determination
      Show the fakers you ain’t foolin’
      You’ll see me come runnin’
      To the sound of your strummin’
      Fill my heart with joy and gladness
      I’ve lived too long in shadows of sadness

      – that 3rd stanza resonates with meaning.

      wellers best work, in his angry youth, is all about being a young man trying to get somewhere in a hurry

      – his scathing eye spares nothing; the brutal driving takedown of the empire and the class system in “eton rifles”, the disgust with politics in “going underground”

      englands contribution to musical popular culture is the one thing I would give them … it’s truly excellent. They don’t do high culture tho – you need to go german.

    403. Sarah says:

      @ twathater at 4.42: a petition to Holyrood on their system would work, wouldn’t it? The difficulty is getting the word out to the Yes movement so enough signatures, quickly enough.

    404. Dan says:


      If we’re risking posting lyrics then I’ll risk the hammers and tack this on.

      The The – The Beat(en) Generation

      When you cast your eyes upon the skylines
      Of this once proud nation
      Can you sense the fear and the hatred
      Growing in the hearts of its population

      And youth, oh youth, are being seduced
      By the greedy hands of politics and half truths

      The beaten generation
      The beaten generation
      Reared on a diet of prejudice and mis-information
      The beaten generation
      The beaten generation
      Open your eyes, open your imagination

      We’re being sedated by the gasoline fumes
      And hypnotised by the satellites
      Into believing what is good and what is right

      You may be worshipping the temples of Mammon
      Or lost in the prisons of religion
      But can you still walk back to happiness
      When you’ve nowhere left to run?

      The beaten generation
      The beaten generation
      Reared on a diet of prejudice and mis-information
      The beaten generation
      The beaten generation
      Open your eyes, open your imagination

      And if they send in the special police
      To deliver us from liberty and keep us from peace
      Then won’t the words sit ill upon their tongues
      When they tell us justice is being done
      And that freedom lives in the barrels of a warm gun

      The beaten generation
      The beaten generation
      Reared on a diet of prejudice and mis-information
      The beaten generation
      The beaten generation
      Open your eyes, open your imagination

    405. Dan says:

      Soz, previous post was to Confused…


      Re. Getting the word out to Yes supporters. There’s various existing networks and lines of communications between Yes groups.
      I tried to get as many Indy supporters as possible to sign up to the email recipient lists of their local Yes groups so they could be kept informed of activities and developments.
      It seemed a no brainer to me that being able to communicate with as many of our fellow supporters as possible would be useful.
      We had email sign up slips printed off for folk to fill in at our street stalls. Proper data protection aspects need to be adhered to when holding this personal information.

    406. Confused says:

      good one dan – the the – forgot about them!

      and a good evening to youse all

    407. Ian Foulds says:

      cirsium comment at 4.33 pm

      I have taken the liberty of using your post and the article on my tweet, as I believe the importance of knowing the 2021 election can be brought forward should be known to as many as possible, considering the consequential effects of being hog-tied next May.

    408. A Person says:

      I know this is a bit late on to post but I see that at the start of this thread G.H. Graham asks what NS’s achievements have been and that does perplex me too. Sturgeon has had six years of unchallenged power over Scottish politics, with no internal or external rivals. Even Thatcher and Blair in their pomp didn’t have that. And yet honestly, what does she have to show for it? Gushing write-ups in the New York Times? Regarded as “sensible” by the brutal people in Whitehall who sell weapons to the Saudis? Compare and contrast to the effectiveness in achieving their ends of the Brexiteers- they threw the kitchen sink at it and got what they wanted, very sadly.You could argue that she’s pursued a cautious agenda to avoid alarming soft No voters and increase support for independence, but a) she hasn’t done anything about independence anyway, and b) she has pursued bitterly unpopular policies in the form of the GRA, the hate crimes bill, named persons. What is the POINT of it all?

    409. Sarah says:

      @ Dan: I admit I was confused for a while! All clear now though.

      You are right about the Yes groups needing to be linked. I thought that’s what the National Yes Registry would do – but I don’t know that it has.

    410. Dear god! That comment on focussing on coronavirus stuff from Sturgeon, away from independence! I am literally gobsmacked! Who the Hell IS that woman? What the Hell is her agenda? She certainly doesn’t care aboot Scotland. At all. And when she said that those coronavirus protesters at the border “don’t speak for me,” she inadvertently revealed her own dictatorial narcissism. They might not speak for her, but they certainly speak for a lot of people utterly disgusted by her monomaniacal reign of female-centric rubbish and waffle, and her inability to keep Scottish people safe.

    411. And thanks for posting that George Kerevan article, Stu. Fascinatingly disgusting.

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