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The bitter minds

Posted on July 15, 2020 by

A concept has recently arisen in Scottish politics for which this site feels at least partly responsible, and which is making the strangest bedfellows of Unionist commentators and SNP ultra-loyalists. It’s summed up very concisely in today’s Times.

Let’s just unpick that extraordinary meltdown for a moment.

Imagine that you’re a person who believes in (say) both Scottish independence and the existence of human biology. Just two simple, reasonable things, not an impossible and fantastical wish list. Imagine that you want to vote for a party which will pursue the former and uphold the latter. And imagine that you’d quite like it if your views were to be represented in the Scottish Parliament. Doesn’t sound like too much to ask, does it? Especially as those are in fact the views of the vast majority of Yes voters.

But who could you vote for at next year’s election? Your options are:


Independence? Sort of, a bit, maybe, if Boris Johnson will let us.
Human biology? Absolutely not, you TERF bigot.


Independence? Over our dead bodies.
Human biology? Yeah, more or less.


Independence? Not a chance.
Human biology? Hell no.


Independence? No way.
Human biology? Definitely not.


Independence? Yes, half-heartedly, and only under certain conditions.
Human biology? You sickening transphobic fascist.

Oh. Right.

Not a single one of the parties currently represented in Scotland’s parliament stands for just those two simple principles. Before you even start having any views about the economy or health or welfare or transport or policing or anything else, you’ve already been disenfranchised. There’s NOBODY you can vote for who won’t work for the exact opposite of at least half of the things you believe in.

But that’s okay, right? Because the electoral system for Holyrood was deliberately and specifically designed so that people could create small parties to fight for their own causes and interests and actually have a chance of securing themselves a voice – the Scottish Senior Citizens Party famously got a seat in 2003, for example – so you can do the same, can’t you?

Well, no you can’t. If YOU do that, for what YOU believe in, you’re just a sickening and disgusting cheat who’s “thwarting the will of the Scottish people”. (Including, um, any of those Scottish people who vote for you in the full knowledge of what you stand for.)

As well as being either a transphobic right-wing bigot or a racist separatist quasi-Nazi who hates English people, now you’re also some sort of contemptible total scumbag who’s destroying the whole concept of democracy by, er, starting a party and asking people to democratically vote for it.

It is of course, very thoroughly ironic that this is all happening over a Parliament whose electoral system was also deliberately and explicitly designed as a cheat to keep one particular party from ever achieving power.

But now that the party which was meant to be excluded has broken that system (due mainly to the stupefying incompetence of the party that was meant to benefit from it), it shrieks in outrage at anything that might even marginally graze its dominance, and is loudly backed by the people who never wanted it to be in power in the first place.

An extraordinary array of people has been marshalled in the defence of the SNP’s sole birthright to the votes of independence supporters (just like Scottish Labour used to consider itself to be automatically entitled to the votes of anyone to the left of Norman Tebbit), accusing anyone who might want their voices heard of simultaneously “gaming the system” (by causing there to be TOO MANY pro-indy MSPs) and also “splitting the vote” (by causing there to be TOO FEW pro-indy MSPs).

There are the “devolutionist” columnists of The Times, of course, as we’ve seen. But we also have the “radical intellectual left” who despise the SNP yet upend buckets of vituperative scorn on the idea, via supposedly pro-indy websites which as recently as the last election were ardently advocating a vote for RISE while shouting from the rooftops about “a new pluralism” and how “unity in diversity is a much stronger base for transformative action than one-dimensional party politics” but now demand that you shut up and give both your votes one-dimensionally to the SNP:

(Correct us if we’re wrong, but as far as we know Bella has never published an article explaining its reasons for this sudden and dramatic U-turn since 2015, and reacts with sneering contempt towards anyone who asks the question.)

We’ve previously noted the literally dozens of hysterical articles on another well-known independence blog deriding any and all new pro-indy list parties and frantically punting the “both votes SNP” line even as it publishes a constant stream of articles suggesting that if current polling is correct the SNP will be lucky to get ANY list seats at all.

And then there’s the country’s only pro-independence newspaper, which currently has someone or other – including the unlikeliest of candidates – rubbishing the possibility of having more pro-independence MSPs at Holyrood in its pages every single day.

In a further layer of irony, of course, having Kenny Farquharson wade in with the view that an indy list party is an evil and monstrous concept might just be the push that Yes supporters need to start getting behind the idea, especially when he’s echoed by such beloved figures as James Kelly MSP and the ever-fragrant David Leask.

Pete Wishart, Sir John Curtice, Alyn Smith, James Kelly(s), Kenny Farquharson, Bella Caledonia and David Leask all batting for the same team. In a way it’s heartwarming. Hopefully they’ll get Brian Wilson, Blair McDougall and Alan Cochrane onside too.

But leaving all tactics aside, anyone who ever tells you, for ANY reason, that forming a democratic political party to represent your democratic views and asking people to vote for it of their own free will in a democratic election is somehow an anti-democratic proposition, and that you’re vile and/or stupid for wanting to be represented by a party you believe in, is a person you should always regard with the gravest of suspicion.

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  1. 15 07 20 14:57

    The bitter minds | speymouth

358 to “The bitter minds”

  1. Liz g says:

    Partly ye say…aye right 🙂

  2. Andrew F says:

    Obviously trousers are being soiled rather profusely at the prospect of democracy having its way in Scotland.

  3. Sarah says:

    I agree with every word of your post, Rev. You campaign for the truth to be preserved. What on earth is wrong with that?

  4. Bob Costello says:

    It is that strange concept , democracy. Something the SNP should never be accused of

  5. Ian Foulds says:

    Good one Rev.

  6. Alastair Gibb says:

    Looks like we are being taken for fools Stu. I’m struggling with the quandary you clearly outline here, and can’t (yet) decide where my votes will go in future. I’ve been an SNP member for over 15 years, but the party doesn’t seem to need or want me anymore.

  7. P says:

    Thanks again

  8. Corrado Mella says:

    It’s a common disease affecting small minded people that ascend to any level of power.

    “Newcomers are the plague, upend democracy, eat children and also stink a little.”

    The more these parvenus agitate, the clearer is their panic.
    Their house of cards is falling down.
    Never too soon.

    Bring. It. On.

  9. GeeH says:

    If the SNP want my vote they can drop the gender reforms and protect women’s rights. If they won’t do that they ain’t getting my vote. End of. It’s up to you, SNP. Your move.

  10. A2 says:

    How about a party that want’s to prioritise independence first and have a reasonable discussion about that other stuff later (or separately)?

    I appear to still be stuck for an option.

  11. Vivian O'Blivion says:

    “… anti-trans factionalism” That hit the irony motherload. Taking a view expressed by the VAST majority of folk is “factionalism” now.

  12. schrodingers cat says:

    on twitter, the unionist argument is akin to saying you cant vote green on the list??

  13. Effijy says:


    That was the whole point of Westminster foisting this mixed up
    Voting system for Holyrood.
    We have brain dead Tories and Labour MSPs who came 4th in their
    Constituency but take up Holyrood time and money as Westminster agitators.

    Cheat -when Labour Leader Dugdale instructs voters to vote for any other
    Unionist party to keep SNP out.
    This should be automatic dismissal in Labours manifesto but anything against Scotland is OK.

    Cheat- Dugdale making money up the jungle while constituents just dangle waiting.

    Cheat- What about Davidson taking her MSP money but not holding constituency surgeries.

    Cheat- What about Infy Ref 1 polling 50/50 but all 37 UK newspapers against and independent view.

    Cheat- £350 million per week to the NHS on Brexit.

    Cheat – we will get a great Brexit Deal.

    Cheat- We are getting all the required PPE kit out to those that need it.

    Cheat- Liar Carmichael and the BBC on the Frenchgate affair.

    Cheat- Cummings drive to Durham to test his eyes.

    Cheat- Gove get daughter Covid test while NHS Staff in front line cannot.

    Cheat- Boris’ Dad Travelling to Greece During Lockdown.

    Cheat- 80% of Non Disclosure contracts from Tories to Tory supporter’s companies.

    How dare that arrogant scribbler make such an unjustified claim while doing the dirty work of
    The most corrupt government ever to sit in Westminster.

  14. Alex Gallacher says:

    I’ve said before and i’ll say again i’d love to see Alex Salmond/Craig Murray with all the assistance of WOS bring forward a party and i’d campaign for that, unionist have gamed the system not just in the SP but also in WM time to play our own game

  15. Newburghgowfer says:

    Good job when I moved I have constantly binned the electoral role forms. All the
    political parties couldnt get a candidate on the Muppet show!!
    What a sorry state Scottish Politics is in.

  16. red sunset says:

    The latest person to be rubbished by the neo-establishment is the one person who stood up to a Returning Officer in the 2007 Holyrood elections and challenged, with the result that the SNP got its first big win and became the government.
    If that one person – ONE PERSON – had not challenged at that moment, it would have been a Labour win in 2007 and we might have Jim Murphy as First Minister.

    Let that sink in, those who would criticise Dave Thompson.

  17. DB says:

    Ok I think I’ve just reached the tipping point with this gender bullsh1t.

    The main goal for independence supporters should be independence because without this Scotland will be looted of its resources, and any powers it now has will be removed by WM. To get distracted and divided by niche issues is an irrelevance and a huge mistake. When the indy movement is now a majority in the country we should be pushing the Scot gov to be more proactive in pushing its case, not mainstreaming this bollocks.

    Once/if we avoid the disaster of the Uk, THEN we can decide if a bloke with lippy is a woman or not. If the majority view is well, no he isnae, I imagine that any party advocating this idea will not be anywhere near power.

    And by the way, after independence, I would be shocked if gender ID was in the top 20 of our to-do list after the economy, health, edcation etc etc.

    Which makes it at best surprising, and at worst suspicious why the question for any future referendum seems to have been reduced to “Do you think that Scotland should be an independent country and that beardy men wearing a dress are women?”.

  18. Fantastic piece Stu you have as usual captured it perfectly.

  19. schrodingers cat says:


    like dugdale telling folk to vote tory??

  20. Dave Hansell says:

    Stick a couple of pips on a monkeys shoulder and it thinks its bleedin’ Napoleon.

    What is being witnessed here is the same problem of hierarchy you get in the vast majority of working environments.

    The Rupert’s with pips on their shoulders would rather be wrong and in control than right and accept any kind of democracy from below.

    The structures and processes of Political Parties have become nothing more than pale mirror images of managerialist dogma in which control rather than democracy is devolved down to the lowest level and the majority of elected representatives at every level little more than third rate management gatekeepers.

    It is this cadre of wastrels and the like minded hacks, hucksturs, carpetbaggers, and con artist fellow travellers who are the ones gaming the system. Many of whom cannot hack it in the real world, hold down a real job, and often have trouble counting the railings or tying their own shoelaces.

    They need us more than we need them.

  21. Sue Varley says:

    A2 – stuck for an option

    How about voting for a party that prioritises indy now, then if you want a reasonable discussion about “other stuff” “later”, vote for a party offering such a discussion “later”?

  22. defo says:

    What was the catchphrase of the lassie in the Just William books?

    All good, the across the board screeching merely endorses the merits this democratic tactic.
    A simple, well explained offer to the electorate should empty out most of the dross at Holyrood.

  23. Breeks says:

    Just maybe Johann Lamont had a point about the genetic programming of the Scots.

    In the last Scottish Elections, the Unionists could vote Tory as their main preference, and have a choice over Labour or Lib Dems for their second choice, thus keeping the gods of Unionism happy while safe in the knowledge that every second vote for Unionism was just a different coloured poke in the eye for the SNP.

    Hey! Why don’t we do something that?” says the living part of the YES movement who actually want Independence, and suddenly the lean, mean, SNP machine, awakes from its 6 year after-dinner coma, and goes straight into cardiac arrest…

  24. Famous15 says:

    The answer is simply to return to a system which cannot be gamed like first past the post.

    Hilarious that democracy can be gamed.

  25. winifred mccartney says:

    Only if a Parliament is skewed towards Unionists is it allowed and only if voting system makes sure No Indy party can hold a majority can it be condoned.

    Have I got that right?

    Or is it just the chronic seat warmers on the list who have never been voted in who should be worried.

  26. Liz g says:

    They should go tell it tae the Electoral Commission that’s who’s integrity they are shitting all over.
    The Electoral Commission are the gate keepers of legitimate party’s and if they are letting through “cheaters” the issue is with them!

  27. Derick fae Yell says:

    Totally nailed it.

  28. Patricia Spencer says:

    This has lifted my spirit considerably! The antics are increasingly irrational and unhinged – it’s truly squeaky bum time for quite a few.

  29. Rev. Stuart Campbell says:

    Doug Daniel retweeting David Leask. I mean, decide for yourselves which of us has joined the wrong team, readers.

  30. A Person says:

    Kenny Farquharson man, honestly… The guy epitomises the attitude of entitlement from Scottish Labour. Thirteen years since they lost office here, down to one MP (in Morningside!) and they are still affronted by the fact somebody else is in power. If you got divorced in 2007 and kept talking about when your wife was going to take you back even though she’d remarried and had two kids you’d be in line for a restraining order.

    More generally, most of the people who are opposed to this new party are doing pretty nicely out of the status quo, so of course they’re anti-new party. Unionists or just sellouts who find hobnobbing at Westminster while voicing platitudes, or telling themselves how under “Nicola” we’re a “progressive beacon”, more congenial than actual work.

  31. Peter A Bell says:

    The article seems to imply that only “SNP ultra-loyalists” condemn the chancers, scammers and snake-oil pedlars now descending on Scotland’s politics looking to exploit legitimate frustration
    for purposes that have absolutely nothing to do with Scotland’s cause and everything to do with petty prejudice, dumb delusion and personal ambition.

    Only those proudly ignorant of the views that I have not been at all shy about making public would accuse me of being an “SNP ultra-loyalist”. But I wholeheartedly oppose the sheer idiocy of pursuing cunning plans and magic solutions via the list vote while stubbornly ignoring the realistic process by which Scotland’s independence can be restored.

    At the very moment when Scotland’s cause demands hard-headed political calculation a significant part of the fucking Yes movement is away chasing candy-floss fucking unicorns.

  32. Milady says:

    Spot. On.

  33. L. Campbell says:

    Great piece, Stuart Campbell, and it sums up the position brilliantly.

    A2: we cannot wait to sort the GRA and ‘hate crime’ legislation because the ‘wokerati’ want it pushed through now, before 2021. I was a long-term member of the SNP, I still believe passionately in independence, but I cannot stomach the utter inertia that has set in. Furthermore, the GRA nonsense and ‘hate crime’ gagging legislation is so profoundly anti woman and undemocratic, totalitarian and illiberal that it rivals the McCarthyism of the last century. At its root lies misogyny, but of a type that was no longer seen in Western society until recently: an angry, bitter and dangerous misogyny that, if given its way, will demote born-women to a fourth estate behind men, trans women and trans men and treat them as criminals if they object.

    Our grand-daughters will probably never compete in sports, never take a sports scholarship, will have to compete with trans women, as well as men and trans men, for every job. Our health services, which have different priorities from those of men, will be plundered to provide services for trans women with all their tackle complete, and a full beard. Trans men, who will still have a women’s physiology and biology, will not have the same impact on men’s services or on men’s facilities and spaces. In America, home of social insanity, we are just beginning to see the real, heartbreaking impact of self-ID on women’s sports, in particular. Girls are being denied scholarships to university; they have little hope of being anywhere near the records set by trans women. The same will happen here. Eventually, I don’t think it is alarmist to suggest that there will be no women’s sports and that teams of trans women will be competing instead, as born-women simply decide to leave the field.

    Margaret Atwood wrote novels about women who were forcibly used as breeders in a dystopian future world, domestic servants, etc. Did she foresee that born-women were under threat of extinction altogether? How long will it be before trans women demand, and are given, womb transplants? The Garden of Eden re-realized without any real Eves to tempt the Adams? Just lots and lots of men of all varieties. Utopia for the chaps.

  34. callmedave says:


    Excellent! All true too. 🙂

    Been out all morning to the local large shopping mall and also taking partner to the hairdressers. 🙂

    Notices on the main entrances saying face coverings mandatory and two way traffic control on the main thoroughfare

    During a longish trail round and a wait on a ‘single chair’ for the new hair-do to emerge (communal seating areas cordoned off) I
    amused myself from boredom by surveying the face coverings.

    Communal garden masks (pale blue mostly vieing for first place)
    Upmarket black very popular
    Lots of upmarket blue
    Spotted three smart tartan ones
    Floral multicolour plentiful
    One UJ mask (worn as a chin warmer really) with Gers T-shirt to compliment her look.
    One Saltire tidily worn
    Not any snoods and only one or two scarf type affairs.

    A couple of dozen unmasked folk all ages from older teenagers and up to OAPs. Some being exempt I hope

    Then my attention was suddenly broken by this sassy woman who was shimmering across to where I sat…..Oh! It was she…very nice hair I had to admit.

  35. A Person says:

    -Peter A Bell-

    How is that then? Even if every single person on this site was actively in love with Nicola Sturgeon, it would still be an inefficient use of votes to use our SNP vote on the list, in the same way as a unionist relative in Glasgow votes Labour on the local vote and Tory on the list while disliking both.

    Furthermore you can’t just say “we support independence, so you’ll just have to stfu and let creepy men into wee girls’ rooms and if you complain here’s a law we’ve passed to let us arrest you”. Why in this debate is it always opponents of this bizarre and extraordinarily unpopular proposal that have to shut up for the cause?

  36. Liz g says:

    Peter A Bell @ 1.57
    So are you one of they suspicious people the Rev mentioned then?

  37. cirsium says:

    Thanks for the detailed analysis, Rev, and a refreshing read.

  38. Clapper57 says:

    So if the unionists are saying this is bad…cheating…does that mean it will work?….Lol

    Cause if waste of time one would expect they,the yoons, would encourage it or ignore it… it would make no difference surely.

    Oh wait is this another of those Do as I say not as I do moments where Yoons suggested their version of tactical voting in previous elections to keep the SNP out….but the so called silent ‘majority’ failed to make the impact they expected as they focused more on the silent as opposed to the majority….Lol

    Cannae believe James ‘I will not sit down’ Kelly used words ‘blatant’, ‘insincere’ and ‘undermine’ in one tweet…..someone has been having too much Alphabet soup…..and by using these words he is obviously projecting his guilt onto others when we, the public, normally associate these words with him and his party in their attitude to Scotland within THEIR UKnotOK….Lol 😉

  39. L. Campbell says:

    But PAB, who is going to do it your way? The SNP? The YES movement? How? If they are reluctant, how? Only by threatening the SNP’s hegemony, by making an actual existential threat can we hope to bring them to their senses? I agree with you about how we could get independence, but it requires people to totally change tactics. They won’t. Listen to what they are saying. The arrogance is astounding. The taking for granted every bit as bad as that of Labour. The ‘woke’ agenda is as dangerous and nihilistic as anything I have seen in my lifetime. Totalitarianism of the ultra left is settling in to the SNP and the Greens even as totalitarianism of the ultra right is settling into the Tories. Labour bestrides both camps, is virulently anti independence, and the Lib Dems are confused, but still vehemently anti independence, too.

  40. Red Squirrel says:

    It is a very simple fact – anyone opposing the GRA is now politically homeless.

    The whining over the last couple of days is very telling. Vote may well be split but the fact is we can’t all manage to hold our noses and vote for science denying misogynists and not voting means democracy is denied.

    Time will tell.

  41. Johnny says:


    If I feel like another party offers me what I want and the SNP is not doing so, then I will vote for it. And no amount of blather from you about ‘magic solutions’ will stop me.

    If the SNP want to cut off this threat, they should do what the promised and quickly.

    Now shut it.

  42. Chris says:

    Stuart I fuckin love you man. No joke you are the best journalist in the UK. You have an honesty and integrity to your work and a way of cutting right to the crux of the issue, as well as a talent for prose.

    Which of the now three new parties would you give your second vote too, if any, btw?

  43. Martin says:

    I really don’t understand why the SNP are pushing both votes SNP so hard. I mean obviously you say you’re going for every vote…but the numerous articles are a bombardment. They will know as well as we do that almost every SNP list vote is a waste and heralds a unionist MSP. Utterly bizarre

  44. Ian Brotherhood says:

    @winifred mccartney (1.42) –

    The Chronic Seat Warmers played Tiffany’s in August 1986.


  45. Tony says:

    Cut the hyperbola, I’m so tired of this gender = sex drum you keep banging – it has no relivance here. I have never called someone a TERF, while at the same time recognise the right to respect someone self determined gender. I’m also able to distinguish that recognising biological sex is in most cases an unrefutable fact. And it is absolutely not the foundation to start a new party. But you can make a party if you so want… can we talk about that, just that, rather than malign one discussion with an unrelated one.

  46. Johnny says:

    Martin@ 2:16pm:

    It’s likely because they fear at least some slippage in the polls.

  47. Caroline Wilson says:

    Strong article. The final paragraph encapsulates the issue for me. As I said on Twitter earlier, whatever your views on the efficacy of the current & notional pro-Indy list parties (& I have reservations about the public traction new parties can achieve in a deeply politically small ‘c’ conservative country), in no way can anything deemed permissible by the Electoral Commission & voted for by the electorate in a free & fair election; be deemed cheating or gaming the system.

    As a side issue, I assume if Galloway’s ‘Alliance’ list outfit ever comes to anything, its effect would only be to cannibalise Unionist parties on the list, although to what degree is moot (reasons as above).

    IF, as current polls predict, the SNP win an outright majority in the constituencies alone, this could change matters significantly, although not necessarily bring us any closer to second referendum. However, there’s a lot of choppy water to flow under the SNP bridge before May 2021.

  48. Johnny says:

    Tony @ 2:17pm:

    I’d have picked a different policy area example, personally.

    But I think the point here is to intimate that those stating ‘there’s no reason for another pro-indy party to exist because there are no policy divergences’ are at it.

    We are aware of what the ISP state they are for but, for instance, claiming that the Alliance party as mooted by Dave Thompson has no policy reason to exist and is only to ‘distort’ before any policy platform has even been outlined is arrant nonsense.

  49. Eddie Munster says:

    It’s short sightedness by the SNP to attack another party who is solely going to be a list vote. Voting SNP twice ISN’T going to mean more SNP msps, the system is rigged to stop that happening as the article states.

    I’m not voting SNP first on the list, they’ll get my second vote as a symbolic vote as voting for them on the list is a wasted vote, but i’ll vote first on the list for the independence party if they’re standing in West Dunbartonshire.

  50. liz says:

    I swear to you , the more the SNP moan, groan, complain and whinge about the new list parties, the angrier I’m becoming.

    WTAF do they think they are?
    How dare they.

    They’re expending more time shooting down the ISP than they ever have done with any unionist party.
    This pressure is being exerted IMO, to make members of ISP scared to put their heads above the parapet.
    One exec member has already left twitter because the O4I mob, and they are a mob, were targeting her

  51. schrodingers cat says:

    could someone please explain to Eddie Munster….never mind

  52. Athanasius says:

    Always said you needed a small c conservative pro-indy party out there to hoover up votes. The entryist controlled SNP needs to get it through their heads that A)nobody owes the party a thing, least of all their votes and B) not everyone sees things their way, and not every so-called “right-thinking person” is a lefty. Face up to the reality of this – you’re not getting independence over the line unless socially conservative people see some representation for themselves in the new Scotland. And they’re not morally evil for feeling that way, either.

  53. Ian Brotherhood says:

    @Rev (1.51) –

    Sadly, Dougie D is living proof of how much damage a lanyard can do.

  54. A2 says:

    L. Campbell says ? Have you actually read it? it wont change the status of trans people, so the thins you worry about will still be a thing whether it passes or not just makes things a bit “easier” with less hoops. The Act itself is reserved, It’s only the means of getting there that’s changing.

    Whether you agree with that is neither here or there.

    My point is that there’s no option outside the SNP that stands on the aim of gaining indi without mudding it up with other things. If you don’t buy the idea that your list vote has to be SNP and don’t have a strong view on the GRA, Feel there’s too much ignorance and downright nastiness on both sides of the argument(yes mostly from the trans “supporting” side or (gasp!) support it then you don’t have a list vote option.

    And for the avoidance of doubt I’ve put “supporting” on quotes as I see the Aggressive behavior of some “trans activists” as totally counter productive, own goal scoring idiocy.

  55. Cadogan Enright says:

    SCOT GOES POP NOW AGREES WITH THE REV – but only if Alex S leads the list party.


  56. Sharny Dubs says:

    Well summed up young man!

    Cheat! Cheat!

    Brass neck in no way can cover it!

  57. jfngw says:

    So the only hope of stopping GRA is for the ISP (or another anti GRA party) is to team up with the Tories and hope they have 65 seats between them.

    If that’s the priority your vote must be Tory 1, ISP 2.

  58. Rev. Stuart Campbell says:

    Och Peter, what a load of old shite.

    “The article seems to imply that only “SNP ultra-loyalists” condemn the chancers, scammers and snake-oil pedlars now descending on Scotland’s politics looking to exploit legitimate frustration
    for purposes that have absolutely nothing to do with Scotland’s cause and everything to do with petty prejudice, dumb delusion and personal ambition.”

    Oh aye? Who are they, then?

    – Alex Salmond (who hasn’t said a word about forming a party, but whose commitment to independence I think we can take firmly for granted)?

    – me (who’s merely posited a suggestion, and desperately doesn’t want to become an MSP)?

    – the ISP (a bunch of women extremely and genuinely alarmed about the SNP’s attack on women’s rights)?

    – Dave Thomson (who’s the only reason we ever had an SNP government and therefore an indyref at all)?

    Those are the only people I’m aware of having made any indications (or not, in Salmond’s case) about forming a party. Which ones are the chancers and the snake-oil peddlers, Peter? Which of us are “deluded” or “scammers”? Let’s hear it, don’t be shy.

    “the sheer idiocy of pursuing cunning plans and magic solutions via the list vote while stubbornly ignoring the realistic process by which Scotland’s independence can be restored.”

    Who’s doing that? The entire POINT of all these parties is to try to force a realistic process, rather that Sturgeon and Wishart’s comical fantasy that Boris will just give in for no reason at all if we get polls up a few more points.

    “At the very moment when Scotland’s cause demands hard-headed political calculation a significant part of the fucking Yes movement is away chasing candy-floss fucking unicorns.”

    Sorry, which unicorns are these? The idea of actually pursuing independence? The idea of having more pro-indy MSPs? Genuinely no idea what you mean. Please take a chill pill and try to elaborate.

  59. Sarah says:

    @ callmedave: thanks for the touch of romance in your comment. Quite cheered me up!

  60. Rev. Stuart Campbell says:


    Not if he’s going to lie about me, no. I’m not an “ISP-supporting blogger”. I’ve admired them for actually getting off their arses and doing something, but to the best of my recollection that’s as far as I’ve gone.

  61. Rev. Stuart Campbell says:

    “Which of the now three new parties would you give your second vote too, if any, btw?”

    Three? The ISP, the Alliance and…?

  62. Allium says:

    The SNP hierarchy absolutely know the GRA reforms don’t stand up to public scrutiny. That’s why they expended considerable energy on trying to slip the reforms through on the quiet and that’s why they didn’t put anything in their Westminster election manifesto about it at all after the debate kicked off regardless, despite their best efforts.

    They probably feel they can firefight it in a Holyrood campaign where only the Scottish Tories oppose reform (I doubt that, thanks to brave politicians like Joan M) but a real alternative, if such a thing were possible, would really put the cat among the pigeons.

  63. Colin Alexander says:

    With every day of craven surrender, every can-kicking exercise, with every SNP acquiescence to every UK assertion of WM sovereignty, indy is getting less and less likely.

    (As things currently stand)

    There’s no indyref coming.

    There’s no independence coming.

    So, regarding indy, it makes no difference whatsoever who you vote for at Holyrood on the List: it won’t bring indy 1cm closer.

    So, vote ISP, Solidarity, Alliance or whatever.

    Just don’t vote for the parties of the British Establishment: SNP, Conservative, Labour, LibDems and Greens.

    The parties that prevented indyref2. Well, when I say that I have to point out:

    It was Nicola Sturgeon and the SNP that decided no indyref. That was an SNP decision supported by the Greens, Tories etc.

    So, vote for whoever you want but, I won’t be voting for Sturgeon’s SNP or Harvie’s Greens.

    I took Craig Murray’s advice and gave them one last chance in Dec 2019.

    How did that turn out for Craig?

    And Scotland?

    Both betrayed.

    So, to hell with Sturgeon’s SNP and Harvie’s Greens.

  64. Gary45% says:

    Cheers for this Stu,
    I expect the rules of law to be changed for next years Scottish elections.
    “Cheating” only applies to others fighting the Establishment otherwise its called correct and fair practice.

  65. Liz g says:

    Jfngw @ 2.48
    That quite the leap there…
    The Tory’s in Holyrood were all for the GRA as were the Westminster one’s too….so they could just as easily switch back!
    No serious party would advocate Tory in this country as Labour have demonstrated anyway!
    Not to mention the Indy position which is the whole point.
    To take as many Unionist seats as possible with a party which won’t barter away the protections of Women and girl’s for a few progressive looking point’s and not ignore any and all open goals for Independence.
    What’s not to like

  66. mike cassidy says:

    For those still unable to grasp the relevance of the trans issue.

    At no point does the BBC say that this is a man.

    And under the new Hate Bill

    You could go to prison for pointing out what I have just pointed out.

  67. Liz g says:

    Colin Alexander @ 2.58
    Calm doon Colin….up here there’s two votes and only one can go to a list party …ye don’t really think you could goad us into leaving the other vote open to just the British parties voters do ye?

  68. Polly says:

    Excellently done. And who is to say a list only party at inception, like ISP, might not go on and gain followers to become a more robust party in its own right. I think we do need at least one more proper Independence Party to have a permanent presence in our parliament.

  69. Al-Stuart says:

    Clever ploy by Kenny Farquarson to earworm the word “cheat” into relatively ordinary voters minds and align it to the concept of a new Indy party.

    The danger for Kenny is his sexual proclivities. Or his money. Or both. Or not. Isn’t the mainstream media an amazing instrument in twisting words and meanings? In destroying the reputations of people and organisations?

    Everyone has their secrets as the Westminster Whips’ offices of all main political parties will tell you.

    Kenny Farquarson is a disgrace. The forensic article written here by Stuart Campbell makes that evidently clear as the Rev unpicks Farquarson’s effort to be a poundland Alistair Campbell In The Thick of It.

    Kenny, when you read this, and in your line of work you will, I know you. I know what you are like.

    So you think it is alright to use the offices and newsprint of The Times to glue the word “cheat” to anyone who dares threaten the Union or the non-mandate-using Nicola brigade?

    You set out to kill off a legitimate political voice for those whom Stuart Campbell clearly identifies as wanting to vote Indy AND respect women’s rights NOT to have a large 6 foot tall paedo called George self-identify as Georgina and take his 6 inch schlong into the young, underage girls changing rooms.

    That is a twin edged sword. Kenny, as you very well know, the best filing cabinet of peccadilloes is NOT in the Tory nor Labour Whips’ offices, but in the archives of Rupert Murdoch himself. Those files on his own journalists are available to more people than YOU might wish for.

    So if you want to start throwing dirty shittty rocks at glass houses, you best reflect on what might rebound in your own direction.

    Kenny you know your trade is a vile one. Your colleagues intercept telephone calls of dead children. You are the Levinson Inquiry personified.

    So when your readers start to question your motives, I would merely leave this journalists advice here…

    To see the real motivation behind Kenny Farquarson’s effort to kill off a new party many of us would want to vote for, as defined in red ink within Stuart Campbell’s article, I would recommend people investigate Kenny Farquarson’s money and sexual appetites. After all, that’s what Rupert would advise his employees to do to others who think they have political power.

    Farquarson, you are a hack. That is what you do to others: follow the money; follow the sex. Get your story.

    At this very moment, someone is having a look at Rupert Murdoch’s old files on you.

    You play dirty. Not everyone stays with the mantra: “they go low, we go high”. Sometimes some folk have to get their hands dirty dealing with the excrumentum that passes for a free press in Scotland.

    Apologies for those who may find this post a little too cryptic. A little too Times Crosswordy.

    But I know that Kenny will get my meaning. All is fair in love and war KFC. You just crossed a line. Bon chance old chap.

  70. CameronB Brodie says:

    I’m not setting out to be controversial just for the sake of it, but it looks like the indy movement is being asked to get back in the box. The folk urging us to do so appear unable to think outside of their constitutional conditioning. They appear to consider Brexit compatible with constitutional jurisprudence and liberal democracy, not simply authoritarian English nationalism.

    They do not appear to appreciate their narrative is empty of moral or legal substance.

    Full text.

    Hannah Arendt and Human Dignity: Theoretical Foundations and Constitutional Protection of Human Rights

    This article considers how Hannah Arendt’s understanding of human dignity comes to terms with two of the most significant controversies in contemporary human rights discourse, while also providing a sound basis for the application of the term.

    By focusing on the right to membership in a political community, Arendt’s understanding of human dignity realizes the importance of maintaining the tension in the dichotomy present in two controversies: universalism and cultural specificity; natural law and positive law.

    The practicality of Arendt’s approach will be demonstrated thought a review of a number of domestic and international human rights instruments with specific focus on the Canadian Charter of Rights and Freedoms, which thus far have failed to provide a universally accepted definition of the term.

    Human dignity, Hannah Arendt, Canadian Charter of Rights and Freedoms, Natural law, Positive law, Universalism, Cultural specificity, Controversies in human rights discourse

  71. Liz g says:

    Mike Cassidy @ 3.06
    Aye and there’s much much more of that stuff myself and others fully intended to weaponise on the door step too.
    The command and control these people exercise over places like Twitter is providing all the material we need to do it too.
    That glee they felt over getting the Wings account banned will be cold comfort to them when they realise they were the authors of their own agenda crashing and burning.

  72. crazycat says:

    @ Rev. Stuart Campbell at 2.52

    I’m pretty sure the “ISP-supporting blogger” is Barrhead Boy, not you.

  73. callmedave says:


    Ha ha!

    Ah well…she’s worth it.

    I decided that her Barnett consequentials were too low and raised them in line with inflation a while back, what can you do. 🙂

  74. Stoker says:

    In one of this articles links a Caitlin Logan writes:

    “ the independence movement there are some who would rather start a fight in a empty room than admit things might just be going to plan.”

    Oh do fuck off whoever you are. There is no plan you muppet and Sturgeons very public changes of approach, ie: after Brexit, after Covid, maybe yesterday, a week next Tuesday, before the end of 2020 and now the most recent shite of once the Covid financial damage has been made clear blah blah blah shows us all she’s making it up on the hoof. Plan my feckin’ jacksie!

    Just like her ultra embarrassing pandemic tactic of jamming her tongue firmly up Bozo’s ample arse with his ‘herd immunity’ fiasco. Sturgeon has a string of advisors who couldn’t formulate a winning strategy at the board game Monopoly. The fact these churnalist arseholes & halfwit rejects such as James Kelly are all grouping together and giving themselves coronaries over this idea of us trying to obtain further democratic power tells us all we need to know.

    Meanwhile the SNP liars in Westminster, “we’ll not be dragged out the EU against our will”, continue to be derided & laughed at in the most publicly humiliating way week after week and they just sit and laugh back. Who in their right mind laughs at a bully repeatedly making a fool of you in public? They’re making a laughing stock out of us all. But of course, it’s all part of the very cunning plan. Meanwhile devolution burns and independence fades into a distant memory.

    Not even so much as a scrap of hope for us who put them in their jobs to cling to. Aye! That’ll be that great plan again.

  75. jfngw says:

    @Liz g

    I was being sardonic as one of the premise for the article was voting for another party to stop GRA. Even if the indy party took 26 seats as some claim they can there is no guarantee this could stop GRA, if as the article infers Green/Lab/LIbDem would more than likely pass such a bill. Obviously later they would have the bill overturned (not the Green’s) to score the point and dominate the headlines.

    My real point was voting for a list party to stop GRA is actually futile if most of the other parties support it. That’s why I’m parking this reason to vote for ISP, I’m not for GRA but if the only way I could possibly stop it is to vote Tory then that’s just not an option for me.

    In the end the number of MSP’s/MP’s is irrelevant as far as gaining independence (what has 81% of MP’s, a super majority, achieved) is concerned. It is the percentage of the vote and to some extent the turnout that counts.

  76. Sarah says:

    @ callmedave: 🙂

  77. Dave Hansell says:

    PA Bell: 1:57

    You lost the rational part of the audience (and the plot) at;

    “stubbornly ignoring the realistic process by which Scotland’s independence can be restored.”

    Which process, in the lifetimes of anyone presently over the age of 18, is that then?

  78. Kenny says:

    For Holyrood, my constituency has only had the big 4 standing, not even a Green.

    My SNP MSP is dire. I could not give him my precious vote. I wish the SSP or Solidarity would stand a candidate.

    Thank heavens for the list vote. I would vote for a pro-indy and anti-GRA party.

    Democracy should be a positive experience. I do not even believe in tactical voting.

  79. PhilM says:

    The trouble with the chumfest detailed above is that when they talk about the SNP, they unimaginatively imagine that the SNP under Sturgeon is largely the same entity as the SNP that fought the referendum. I’m not sure that’s the case at all. The metamorphosis of the SNP into the Scottish Woke Party, or SWP for short, has changed almost everything.
    If anyone is to blame for the rise of list parties whose sole raison d’etre is “independence as soon as fuck” then it’s Alastair Campbell’s BFF and nobody else.

  80. Stoker says:

    Politics Live saved but Andrew Neil axed by BBC cuts:

  81. Ewan Steed says:

    I have been a SNP supporter almost all my life and cannot understand the theory that any pro-independence party should not be formed as this will affect the overall vote for the SNP.

    In reality the D’Hondt system affects the “list” vote by not giving the SNP the list seats that it should obtain from the votes that it receives. This has only happened once in 2011 (I think) and is very unlikely to happen again (although it could).

    However, I do feel that giving the SNP first vote and the new Indy party the 2nd (list) vote would do nothing but good (and hopefully would see the end of the Gender Bill. It would also, possibly, reduce both the Tories and Labour to a mere rump.

    I could see the SNP in power helped by the new Indy party who would be the main opposition with the Greens in 3rd place followed by the “Unionist” parties greatly reduced in number.

    The first priority must be to gain Independence with a large enough majority that nobody can quibble that this is not so.


  82. Spikethedee says:

    Really don’t know what to do. Was looking at the 2016 result for my Region (mid) and the SNP got just over 120,000 list votes and not one MSP (8/9 constituency seats). Tories got 4 from about 75,000 votes. I really just want to get as many pro-Indy MSPs as possible, as I believe that sorting Indy will let us sort out all the other things as an Independent country. Am open to voting Green (if they start being more vocal about Independence, rather than it being an afterthought), but also don’t want to waste my list vote if Stirling or South Perth go back to Tory somehow, or Labour actually get enough support to take one of the Fife seats (stop sniggering at the back). The problem is, you don’t know how the constituency seats will pan out when you vote for your list.

    I’m amused at all the Unionist bleating that it is unfair that voting for a party that you think represents your views is somehow an affront to democracy, but am not worried at all that any new party might mean fewer pro-Indy MSPs, unless everyone thinks like Eddie Munster at 2:24pm.

  83. Liz g says:

    Ewan Steed @ 3.35
    That sums it up nicely and just to add..
    We want as many non unionist party’s spaces in on the negotiation after a yes vote as possible.
    We don’t need the SNP out numbered by the British Party’s otherwise we’d never know which country’s interests were being represented….not to mention Wings ( are you listening Stu ) who we could trust not to keep their dirty secrets and explain clearly what was agreed and why

  84. Allium says:

    There’s no guarantee that all SNP or Labour MSPs will back the GRA stuff. I don’t think Joan M, Kate Forbes, Johann Lamont or Jenny Marra would, for example. Depending on whether they are named/ their position on the list these candidates may well get a personal vote from a grateful electorate. Maximising the opposition to this bill is a priority for me, I will not vote for a Woke or undeclared candidate under any circumstances. I will actively vote against them, whoever they represent. If there is an alternative who endorses independence at the same time, so much the better.

  85. Johnny says:


    Stop doing calculations for a start.

    Vote for who you want on principle and then you won’t feel cheated.

    You’re voting to send a message that you like what parties are saying they will do.

    So, to take indy as an example:

    If you like and trust what the SNP have to say on movement towards indy, vote for them.

    If you don’t, consider one of the pro-list parties if you like what they are saying better.

    And of course so on for any other issues you are interested in, in whatever order they are important to you.

    Trying to do calculations will drive you daft, and you cannot control what other voters do, only yourself. So vote in a way that’s true to yourself.

    My suspicion is that a list party for forcing the pace can do well if only a section of those who wish to force the pace vote for it on that principle, in order to send a message.

  86. jfngw says:

    OK we have the blogger derby and my interpretation of their positions are (although I expect Mr Bell to tell me to shut the fuck up and not try put words in his mouth, but it’s my opinion of his position).

    Rev Stu – Supports independence but is seriously pissed off with the SNP

    Peter A.Bell – We need to stick with the SNP but force them to change tack, if that needs change at the top then so be it.

    James Kelly – You can’t game the system and it’s stupid trying as you could end up in a worse position if you get it wrong.

    Barrhead Boy – Tied his support to ISP, just do it, your an idiot or a troll if you don’t.

    WeeGingerDug – Similar to James Kelly but much more polite, in fact the only blogger that can find something positive in everything regarding independence.

    jeggit – revolution, kick them out.

    I may have missed some out, these are the ones I read. I didn’t include Craig Murray I his blog is wider than independence.

  87. Breeks says:

    Liz g says:
    15 July, 2020 at 3:08 pm
    Colin Alexander @ 2.58
    Calm doon Colin….

    Colin is right though.

    Even if the SNP doesn’t spontaneously self combust, and the List Party sweeps the board, IF it goes well for us, we will still only be standing where we stood in 2011 with 69 pro Indy seats and outright majority, or 2016 with 63 seats and 6 Indy friendly Green seats. We will still be looking for a workaround for the problem of a UK Government which sticks it’s fingers in its ears when Scotland wants a referendum.

    And “if” the Election is a plebiscite, you still have the same Section 30 type problem of persuading the UK Government (and International Community for that matter), to agree it’s a plebiscite and agree that it will recognise the result.

    You can an chop and dice it how you like people, but Independence, whether by ballot, bullet, or obdurate legal technicality, the status of Scotland will be determined the issue of it’s constitution and sovereignty. It is the essence of what power and independence is, and ultimately, it is the only question which will matter.

    All roads lead us in the end to the issue of Scotland’s constitutional sovereignty. We defend the one we’ve got, or take on the much harder job of creating a new one.

    Defending the one we’ve got means we prevent Westminster cocking it’s leg on the popular sovereignty of the people, and that means fighting our Brexit and subjugation, and an end to this “playing possum” favoured by the SNP.

  88. susan says:

    Excellent article Stu. I must say I’m mightily pissed of at the entitlement being displayed by prominent people over who I can vote for. It’s my right to vote for a party with principles with which I agree. Nobody will tell me otherwise – they can fk right off.

  89. Colin Alexander says:

    Liz g

    You said on the last thread that MPs are even more important than Holyrood.

    So, tell me. What have SNP MPs achieved? What can they achieve, even if they tried?

    Are you now arguing for the Union? Arguing that Scotland is fairly represented in this Union of Equals? Arguing FOR the Imperial Parliament?

    Come on, convince me, in this union where the SNP has already accepted without challenge that UK Parliament is sovereign, convince me how 48 SNP MPs can outvote UK Parliament Commons and UK Parliament Lords, and how they can outvote UK Parliament, within the Union, to deliver independence when the UK says NO.

    That’s making the very unlikely assumption, for the sake of argument, that the SNP under Sturgeon, will ever try for independence.

  90. Liz g says:

    Jfngw @ 3.30
    sorry, I really didn’t pick up on it 🙂
    Anyhoo…As I understand it a strong showing by a list party would mean that they were in a good position in the horse trading over getting legislation through Holyrood and the SNP would have to come to the table on the GRA
    Also not forgetting that the other party’s will suffer on the door step if they don’t back away from it too,so they are unlikely to choose it as a hill to die on!

  91. TJenny says:

    Stu, nobody does it better than you. 🙂 (I still really miss you on twitter.)

    Do you think some of those shouting the loudest, lanyard wearers and wokists, against any new indy list party, are, themselves, hoping to stand on the SNP list and are starting to see their wee hopes dashed?

  92. Republicofscotland says:

    Putting the SNP MSP’s and MP’s aside for a moment the majority of them want both your votes next year, its only natural for a party to put its self interests ahead of other parties, but on this occasion giving them your list vote as well damages the independence cause, it doesn’t enhance it, it only enhances the chances of more unionists getting into Holyrood.

    So you can conclude in my opinion that all these scare stories of new independence parties and gaming the system are, SNP/MPs/MSPs aside, (well almost all of them) are signs of terrified unionists, that a swathe of unionists will lose their seats at Holyrood next year if we give our list votes to these fledgling independence parties, which me must do in order to put pressure on Sturgeon to push for Scottish independence.

  93. Rev. Stuart Campbell says:

    “I’m pretty sure the “ISP-supporting blogger” is Barrhead Boy, not you.”

    Oh, is it? I’m so used to SGP being Scot Rants About Wings these days that I just assumed 😀

  94. DickieT says:

    Read Alyn Smith’s article with much amusement especially his wee dig at you Stu over your Women’s rights. Smith is just angry that his wee boyfriend had to resign from the SNP due to his/her abusive behaviour to anybody that thinks the whole GRA debacle is an utter farce

  95. Rev. Stuart Campbell says:

    “Do you think some of those shouting the loudest, lanyard wearers and wokists, against any new indy list party, are, themselves, hoping to stand on the SNP list and are starting to see their wee hopes dashed?”


  96. Rev. Stuart Campbell says:

    “WeeGingerDug – Similar to James Kelly but much more polite”

    Ha, you haven’t seen him today.

  97. jfngw says:

    @Liz g

    No it’s my fault, sometimes I write things which are ludicrous in my mind to make a point, I think many take it as a serious position. In fact some on here probably believe I’m actually a unionist or even a government employee (Joe’s gone now but pretty I’m sure a reincarnation is already with us).

  98. Robert Louis says:

    Of course, views on all of this do differ. Whilst in principle I agree with the concept of maximising the list vote, once we have more than one ‘alternative’ indy party (their are ,so far as I know, now 2) then it becomes a non winnable strategy.

    Of course, the one element missing is Mr Salmond. His presence, even if not the leader of such a party, would change everything – and I think people know that. But, perhaps he will not want to enter the fray again, having endured the awful false charges laid against him earlier this year, and been proven innocent. Going to the high court in Edinburgh on such charges, is a major strain on anybody. It is not fun. But we shall see. That could be a game changer.

    However, what those defending the SNP, especially folk like Alyn Smith and Pete Wishart seem to ignore is just one glaring obvious fact. IF the SNP leadership had made the slightest move towards independence during the last six years, then NOBODY would even want to talk about a second indy party. Their would be no appetite for it. It is BECAUSE the SNP became complacent, thinking they could wait forever and a day, that folks attitudes have hardened.

    The SNP could of course tomorrow decide to actually stand up for Scotland, instead of just talking about it, but most now see that as unlikely.

    We (indy supporters) held on as long as we could. Our country is being trashed, dragged out of the EU, in defiance of any concept of democracy or constitutional rights. It is an utter, utter disgrace, and the SNP should be fighting it head on, but they aren’t. We voted SNP time and time again. We hoped, and hoped that soon the SNP’s ‘masterplan’ to save Scotland from brexit via independence would be revealed. We waited in vain.

    I cannot possibly explain the extent of my utter, utter disappointment in the SNP leadership. I was in the Hydro when NS became leader. I cheered her on, big foam finger and all. We all had a shared sense of real hope, the fight was NOT over. The passion in the crowd that day, I will never forget.

    But that was then. Six wasted years.

    With few honourable exceptions, the SNP is laden with careerist politicians, who no doubt, in their quiet moments, justify to themselves, that ‘we are right. If only these indy folk would just listen. It is best to wait. Just a little longer now, another few years, maybe.. get another ‘mandate’ then we’ll see, yes, then we’ll maybe see about independence’

  99. Liz g says:

    Colin Alexander @ 3.53
    A reply for ye over on that thread Colin

  100. SilverDarling says:

    In Scotland over the past 5 years or so it feels like time has accelerated and we are hurtling through changes that in the past would have taken generations to effect.

    So this is what the Unionists fear and they see change coming and can do nothing about it. From always being at the helm of change they have had the steering wheel wrenched from their cold dead hands.

    It is illuminating that the Unionist press are amongst those shouting the loudest about the SNP being gamed not by Unionists but by other Independence parties. What does that tell us? That the Union is safer with the SNP?

    Also the nightmare that any of the list of SNP ‘lanyards’ (thanks Ian B.) could somehow sneak in because of the system is too much to bear. Their social media exploits and biology denial would mean they would be torn apart in hustings or the media yet they could still get in on the list? Just No.

    If the SNP hierarchy are trying to game the system by parachuting in Alyn Smith’s supporters and pals then who do they think they are to question if people don’t want these candidates as an MSP?

    It would be good just to have someone to vote for positively on the list.

  101. Stuart MacKay says:

    Peter Bell @1:57pm

    At the very moment when Scotland’s cause demands hard-headed political calculation

    Well, that’s exactly the problem isn’t it. There’s no hard-headed political calculation on display and it’s not for the want of asking either. Instead of showing a hint that somebody, somewhere has a plan or even a clue all that is given is “now is not the time”. No wonder people are starting to look for ways to move the process forward.

    However you can all rest easy, if it’s only a few hotheads on the internet then there’s nothing to worry about and the GRAdualists can sleep soundly in their beds.

  102. Breastplate says:

    Peter A. Bell,
    You should be ashamed of that comment that descended into a foot stamping tantrum and name calling.
    Very poor indeed.

  103. Donald Muir says:

    Why are we seeing things that the SNP diehards are not seeing?

    If we are staunch Pro Indy, then what are they?

    If we see the dangers of the GRA bill then why can’t they?

    Have we somehow developed special powers, where only we see what they can’t?

    It reminds me of indyRef1, when we couldn’t understand why half of Scotland just didn’t get why we would be far better off being an independent nation.

  104. Julia Gibb says:

    I have two votes. I will still give my constituency vote to the SNP as Independence is my key objective.My second vote will now go to the list Party with which I most identify with. It will not be the Greens because they are nuts. The ISP is my likely choice at present but I need to see some more data on candidates.

    I hope to be offered further choices and I hope a very strong leader shows up soon and pulls it all together and give us a clear cut “no brainer option”.

    Independence and Biology makes an attractive banner.

  105. Donald Muir says:

    The SNP are dropping off the Political Radar faster than Pete Wishart rushing to the bank every month to pick up his
    Westminster expenses payment.

    Bought and sold and all that.

  106. Julia Gibb says:

    @Donald Muir

    Please, please stop confusing SNP members and voters with the nutters who wish to damage progress with Independence. A Party is NOT it’s HQ. It takes time to force changes.
    Are you offering an alternative Party…thought not!

  107. Tony Little says:

    I’m “debating” this on Twitter. I can not believe the number of supposedly pro-Independence people that are saying it’s “Gaming the system” (straight from the Unionist playbook) or “We shouldn’t be doing this”. It’s like all the moles, MI5 spooks, infiltrators, and double agents are revealing themselves.

    Sick of it and blocking and unfollowing like it’s going out of fashion.

    Lord save us if this is where we are

  108. Donald Muir says:

    Julia Gibb

    You’ve changed your tune.

    Have you finally seen the light.

    You were one of those diehard Sturgeonistas not so long ago.

  109. Donald Muir says:

    Julia Gibb 4 26

    Didn’t understand one word you wrote there.

    Sorry, I don’t speak Sturgeonese.

  110. orri says:

    There’s an obvious way all the established parties can head this off at the pass and that’s to change the rules to a STV AMS model.

    Could keep the constituencies whilst the list would be a continuation of the same vote.

    Open lists would be a minimal option, to keep out the wasters and ensure at least minimal levels of support for list MSPs.

    The SNP might be opposed as it’d risk them getting no seats on the list when they would previously. It’d keep them honest though.

    The woke really wouldn’t like it as putting themselves at the head of their party lists still wouldn’t guarantee they’d get elected.

    The main drawback might be no indy majority but I’m not convinced we’ve got one now and if it does result in one then independence is probably a certainty.

  111. L. Campbell says:

    A2: that is my point. Trans people have all their rights ad I have no problem with that. I realise that it doesn’t change the status of trans people. What it will change is that it will entrench in law the right to self-ID without any medical assessment, so that any man, at any time, anywhere, can claim to be a woman and he will be a woman. Surely you can see how that changes the status of women?

    It specifically redefines what a woman is, from the biological evidence to someone’s (a man’s) say-so. Few countries have actually adopted the full-fat version of trans rights, but have managed to compromise. If trans women who are undergoing hormone treatment can leave female athletes standing in female sports, what will self-ID trans women who are biological men in every way, with no treatment or actual physical transitioning, do? Why should a physical, biological male tell women what they are, what they are allowed to do simply because he believes he’s a woman?

    Body dysphoria is a condition, and most sensible trans people acknowledge that, but we are not talking about that, are we? We are talking about changing the law and bringing in new law to ensure that women have no way to object to their safe spaces being invaded, their sports being invaded, etc. Women have been silenced on this issue when they have tried to debate on the consequences. Yes, it is right that trans people should not have to wait years for recognition and that they shouldn’t have to suffer discrimination and fear because of how they are. Welcome to the reality of women’s lives – the lived from birth reality. The law could quite easily make exceptions to keep trans women out of female safe spaces, sports, health care, etc. while still allowing a speedier transition process, but some form of medical assessment should still be necessary.

    On independence, I would look at the ‘wokerati’ agenda and those who push it because they are not primarily interested in independence. Independence stalled the moment that the ‘wokerati’ infiltrated the party. The two positions are intimately connected. Didn’t a certain young lady in the SNP say a while back that independence was not a priority for her? As for Westminster, I believe they have parked GRA for the time being, not being stupid enough to antagonize and alienate English voters before Brexit. One of the ‘wokerati’ queens of Labour was removed recently, although Lisa Nandy is still there.

  112. jfngw says:

    @Rev Stu

    ‘Ha, you haven’t seen him today.’

    I had read him today, he didn’t appear to attack anyone personally. He stated the idea of multiple list parties is destined to fail, I had already made this comment in a previous thread. He also stated he didn’t believe Alex Salmond would take a position he thought would damage the cause of independence, plus we need to garner the support of the majority in Scotland before we can impose our sovereignty (my wording, trying condense a paragraph into a single comment isn’t easy).

    These parties could concentrate on regions but their media profile would tank as they would be seen as regional groups and for local media only. They are going to have a hard enough time getting on the media as a national party never mind a regional one.

    I don’t have any issue with bloggers with different opinions, I find it actually helpful, giving a perspective that I might never have thought of, but when they start attacking each other it doesn’t add anything.

  113. callmedave says:

    Corona: Today

    Scotland ………..00……Total…..2490…BBC
    N. Ireland…….today…..00……Total……556…BBC

  114. So since devolution it has been alright to have 3 unionist parties it is now not right to have 3independence parties ???the SNP do not want them because they will be able to hold the SNP to account more than the SNP members can and that would never do

  115. Rev. Stuart Campbell says:

    I had read him today, he didn’t appear to attack anyone personally.”

    I guess you missed this reply to a comment:

    “That’s the biggest load of bollocks that’s ever been posted as a comment on this blog. Well done.

    Now fuck off back to your self righteous woebaggery.”

  116. Johnny says:

    jfngw: WGD told a commenter BTL to fuck off, which is what I suspect Stu is referring to.

  117. Gary45% says:

    Donald Muir, or is it Joe, Oscar & Co?
    Man are you lot going through the phone book for names to use?
    Same garbage, press repeat.
    Try again Son.

  118. Breeks says:

    Tony Little says:
    15 July, 2020 at 4:27 pm
    I’m “debating” this on Twitter. I can not believe the number of supposedly pro-Independence people that are saying it’s “Gaming the system” (straight from the Unionist playbook) or “We shouldn’t be doing this”. It’s like all the moles, MI5 spooks, infiltrators, and double agents are revealing themselves.

    With regards to “gaming the system”, I’ll repeat what I said earlier… In the last Scottish Elections, the Unionists could vote Tory as their main preference, and have a choice over Labour or Lib Dems for their second choice, thus keeping the gods of Unionism happy while safe in the knowledge that every second vote for Unionism was just a different coloured poke in the eye for the SNP.

    It IS however a straight “gaming” of the system to have a two preferred option voting slots, a first and second choice for every voter, where Unionists can fill those 2 choices from a selection of 3 available options, while pro Indy voters have the same 2 choices to fill but from a selection of 1 option.

    A List Party is a pro-Indy voter’s Plan B. It’s not rocket science.

  119. jfngw says:

    OK, I rarely read the comments on WGD site.

  120. Rev. Stuart Campbell says:

    “WGD told a commenter BTL to fuck off, which is what I suspect Stu is referring to.”

    It wasn’t much of a counterpoint, certainly.

  121. Alan says:

    Gender reform is absolutely doing my head in, so here SNP members is my take on it.
    The SNP want to let r*pists and paedos into women and young girls spaces.

  122. Donald Muir says:

    This Indy List Party would help rid Holyrood of the Tory Table Thumpers.

    The Labour Loonies

    The LibDem Dummies.

    And Harvie’s Woke wankers.

  123. Evelyn Airlie says:

    Possibly your best article to date. Imagine being told that you’re ‘gaming’ or ‘cheating’ the system by voting with your own free will, for a political party of your own choice, registered in the country which you live in, yet you’re apparently all ‘A OK’ & not cheating or gaming the system by voting with your own free will, for a political party registered in another country.

  124. Donald Muir says:

    Gary 45%

    Please explain, I’m sorry but you have also totally confused me.

    As I told your fellow diehard STURGEONITE Julia Gibb, I don’t speak Sturgeonese, so you will need to translate your post into some kind Of language we normal Scots can understand.

  125. Colin Alexander says:

    Vote for whoever you want without any worry about backing the wrong horse.

    Scottish independence cannot be obtained via British “democracy”, so at the end of the day it makes no difference who you vote for in Scotland.

    UK Parliament, your Imperial masters, are not chosen by you.

    You’ll get your vote but, you will get to decide nothing, that’s British “democracy” for Scotland. That’s the Union.

    Labour and the Tories know that.

    The SNP have learned that and decided to accept that. They are now a British “democracy” party.

  126. liz says:

    I used to be an avid reader of WGD but have not read his blog for sometime.

    Not sure why, I just lost interest in it.
    So went to look today and oh dearie me.

    Some were trying politely to say what the person he told to fuck off said but the number who still think NS walks on water, no wonder she doesn’t have to do very much to get voted in.

    One very disgraceful comment was on the characters of the ISP people, that was a shocker.
    The woman who left twitter because of the insults from O4I, had just had a baby and had quite a time of it being unwell.
    You need skin like an elephant to enter politics.

    I disagree about his thinking that AS would not take on NS, It really depends on whether or not, he believes she is pursuing indy or ruining it

  127. Roberto says:

    Gary 45%

    You are another SNP Troll.

    Get over it stupid.

    You are losing the argument.

    Sturgeon is finished

  128. Effijy says:

    Let’s begin with the latest case, unearthed by investigative journalists at the Guardian and openDemocracy. It involves a contract to test the effectiveness of the government’s coronavirus messaging, worth £840,000. It was issued by the Cabinet Office, which is run by Michael Gove. The deal appears to have been struck on 3 March, but the only written record in the public domain is a letter dated 5 June, retrospectively offering the contract that had already been granted. There was no advertisement for the work, and no competition. No official notice of the award has yet been published. The deal appears to have been done with a handshake and a slap on the back.

    The Guardian Today: the headlines, the analysis, the debate – sent direct to you
    Read more

    Billions of pounds worth of contracts handed out without tender or transparency to Tory supporters.
    we do know who one contract that went to. It’s a company called Public First, owned by a married couple, James Frayne and Rachel Wolf. Since 2000, Frayne has worked on political campaigns with Dominic Cummings, Boris Johnson’s chief adviser. When Gove was education secretary, he brought both Cummings and Frayne into his department. Cummings was Gove’s chief political adviser, while Frayne was his director of communications. At roughly the same time, in 2010, Gove’s department awarded Wolf a £500,000 contract to promote his “free schools” obsession. Guess what? That didn’t go to competitive tender, either. Wolf co-wrote the Conservative party’s election manifesto in 2019.

  129. Willie says:

    The SNP say they are going to do well in the FPTP constituency vote and that is fantastic.

    However, they will then do very poorly in the regional list vote. Over 953,000 votes last time for four seats tells you that.

    But the same vote for an Indy List party could garner 30 to 34 seats. And that ladies and gentlemen would give the independence parties a thumping majority. And that is why SNP politicians like Kenny MacAskill are saying that it is a great idea.

    In fact it’s not a great idea, it’s a must do idea, and the support for it is huge.Sadly the troughers in the SNP of which there re now many, have no real interest in independence. Marking time as career politicians taking career politicians wages in a devolved assembly is what they are about. A new dynamic addition of MSP’s actually wanting independence would be an anathema to them.

    And that is why the current leadership is split with the likes of Kenny MacAskill and Alex Neil, much of the membership and the wider YES movement beyond. For them the SNP party badge is a sinecure to paid wages.

    But change is coming both from within and without and Nicola and the Time Servers will not stop it. Or if they do, it will be their political death warrant. Change is coming!

  130. Roberto says:


    Excellent piece of Journalism.

    As each day passes it us becoming normal to speak of Sturgeon as an enemy of the people.

    And have you noticed how quite the support for Sturgeon has become,,,not a peep now.

    More and more of us are seeing a List Party as the best way of getting the Yes/Independence Movenent back in track.

  131. Confused says:

    I love the smell of napalm in the blogging …


    riverdance with steel toe-caps

  132. Neil Anderson says:

    There’s too many list parties amongst us. We need one, with 1 policy – independence, to be followed swiftly by political realignments and the first election of a free Scottish Parliament.
    .. And we need the SNP to drop the ego trip and stand aside for it wherever it can produce another pro-Indy seat

    I’m a Socialist, and an Internationalist. I’m not in the SNP or any party. I came to the Yes movement for the independence. For me it’s a logical step towards Socialism. England isn’t going there any time soon, so why would Scots wait for them. Better to build a better independent Nation then at least they’d have an example of what is possible.

    I knew it meant I was working in common with folk who had vastly different ideas about all kinds of issues. I see the Yes movement as a tacit agreement between all of us to put some things on hold for the common good and sort them out after independence. As a socialist I was committing to working in concert with a group that included some who were clearly capitalists for example, and all of us on all sides of every issue faced the same dilemma and swallowed the pill. Independence was and is the only thing every one of us has in common. We would all vote & campaign for whoever, and whatever strategy was most likely to achieve that’s one aim as quickly as possible, then realign to campaign with and against each other on everything else.

    Not Independence & Trans Rights (or not)
    Not Independence and Named Person legislation (or not)
    Not Independence and… anything, …from either side.

    Just Independence. That’s what I voted for. That’s what hasn’t happened.

    Inevitably that commitment can never be open ended. Some situations are just too urgent and oppressive to hold back on for long, if at all. Politics and life go on and some things have to be dealt with along the way. We need to have schools and hospitals, and stop racism.

    Also given the historical situation and political situation inevitably the SNP had to take the lead. That doesn’t mean they get to make all the decisions about the direction of the whole movement – still despite their expansion many times larger than the SNP.
    Sadly I’m starting to see the early signs sort of entitlement culture that used to be solely the mark of Labour in Scotland (and Everyone in Westminster), and the same dismissive attitude of criticism.

    The List party debate is by far the worst example, either in its current form or last time. Same abuse of yessers who won’t swallow every party line. Same dodgy mathematics. Same ‘it can’t be done – you’ll never get the 15% of the vote’.

    The SNP once DREAMED of 15%. They’re living proof it can be done – and their members insisting they can’t ever vote for any others is the biggest obstacle. Party members can’t vote for a party standing against them – fair enough then – stand aside & then you can vote for whoever on the ballot is most likely to get another pro independence seat.

    Also ‘the electoral rules’ can’t be messed with…? Really? D’Hondt was put in place by our enemy to give them the best chance of clinging on to some power. If they’re thought they could win by FPTP, D’Hondt would never even have been up for discussion. And at every election we see every trick in the book right up to the line & sometimes way beyond regardless of the regulations. The Tories, for example, can’t be allowed to keep doing that, whilst we play fair and nice.

    But every political party and movement will make mistakes. Every one by any of us either in government or on the streets potentially damages the all of us. There’s no formal method of accountability between us. Whether you think shouting at people over the border is brilliant and imaginative or silly and unacceptable doesn’t matter. Nobody asked you or I.
    The same applies to every mis-step the SNP or Greens (remember – also elected on an independence ticket) makes can and does damage us.

    The same applies to every scandal, even though we may well know those involved are totally mis-represented by the media and mostly are cleared it’s toxic, but over time it’s going to happen. Some people seem more concerned with actually making it happen than anything else.

    If SNP wants the continued support of the movement they need to continually earn it. We gave them lots of licence to make tactical decisions for us. They’re need to know we’re not ever vote fodder. If independence stalls it will be as much down to their actions (or inactions) as anyone. They have the opportunity to take us there, or let support drift away to deal with the rest of life, and with independence, in our own various sweet ways

    Time for SNP and the Yes Movement to get back round the table.

  133. crazycat says:

    @ Breeks at 4.57

    In the last Scottish Elections, the Unionists could vote Tory as their main preference, and have a choice over Labour or Lib Dems for their second choice…

    The Holyrood system is not a first and second preference.
    It’s one vote for an individual, and another for a party. These are not ranked one above the other.

    It has become customary to refer to them as “first” and “second” votes, or “1” and “2” (though which is which has changed over time), but this is misleading.

    I’m sure you know that, but there are people who really do think they are ranking their votes, or even that they cannot vote for an individual belonging to the same party they choose to support on the list (or vice versa).

    The point that you are making – that unionists can distribute their votes between more parties, should they so wish, than independence supporters can – is of course valid, but I do think it is important to describe this correctly to avoid adding to confusion!

  134. Johnny says:

    Roberto, I am for a list party but shut up with the ‘enemy of the people’ patter, you spangle.

  135. stuart mctavish says:

    The last parliamentary session proved how easy it was for MPs to defect to hitherto unknown parties (such as Change UK and the Independents) so one way to lay down the gauntlet, whilst honouring all leadership decisions made to date, might be for the MPs to resign en mass (from SNP) and stand on the Holyrood list, along with respected others, on a manifesto founded upon an indyref2 or revoke the treaty ultimatum.

  136. Roberto says:


    Who the fuck are you to decide what I write and what I don’t fuckin write.

    I wrote Sturgeon us the enemy of the people,,,, because she is the enemy of the people.

    End of,,, wanker

  137. Roberto says:


    So you’ll be another SNP perv who is all in favour of Sturgeon’s GRA Bill then???

  138. mike cassidy says:

    I hope Stu sees the funny side of it

    When the latest trollavatar and serial abuser Roberto praises his article.

    It’s a funny old game, politics.

  139. TJenny says:

    Julia Gibb – with you there.

  140. CameronB Brodie says:

    L. Campbell
    You’re absolutely correct, these ill-conceived GRA amendments will subjugate and colonise the female identity, and legally re-position biological women as second class citizens who’s lived experience can be determined by men. In pretty much the same way that British nationalism seeks to subjugate and colonise Scotland’s legal identity and capacity for autonomy.

    The law must work for women

    This is the speech that Lucy Masoud gave at the London meeting, A Woman’s Place is Resolute. She spoke on our second demand.

    The law must be strengthened to ensure that all women who want or need single sex spaces (including toilets, health provision accommodation, prisons, sports, sexual and domestic violence services) are able to access them without resorting to extraordinary measures. Service providers should be supported in offering such services through legal and financial means and clear guidance must be issued on the exercising of such rights.

  141. Beaker says:

    Nothing to stop anyone setting up their own political party, no matter how weird some of them are (Lib Dems… UKIP…)

    Maybe there is genuine fear within the SNP leadership. What’s interesting is MacAskill being in favour. Could he be the stalking horse (or sacrificial goat) to topple Sturgeon?

  142. Juteman says:

    I’m conflicted by this issue. I might have more confidence in voting for another party on the list, but the trolls on the BTL comments on here raise my suspicions.
    Why are all these new sockpuppets and trolls cheer leading for Stu and the new party idea?

  143. Roberto says:

    The SNP Trolls crawling out of the woodwork.

    I think the SNP Trolls would be more suited to WGD these days.

    Because there is a huge gulf developing between those of us who have seen right through Sturgeon and those gullable halfwits who Sturgeon will continue use for her own personal gain.

  144. Bob Mack says:

    It seems the SNP and those who support the Union want to keep the Status Quo. Why? Simply because they know that currently the route to Independence is blocked by the system. It was designed to do just that.

    The SNP want to keep power and not be forced into moving before THEY are ready, which could be years away.

    The Indy electorate however don’t want to play those games and are talking or thinking of backing a new party who will put Indy on their manifesto first and foremost.

    This is Real Politick, being carried out by the people and not politicians, and they don’t like it one bit. Any of them.

    First vote SNP. Second vote on an agreed preferred party.

    If politicians can’t lead us to Independdnce,we must do it ourselves.

  145. Bill McLean says:

    Roberto and Johnny – thaks for doing the Britnats work for them. Divide and rule was ever the Empire’s best weapon! Maybe you too/two are…………? Maybe Dog Biscuit is the third musketeer?

  146. CameronB Brodie says:

    Pissing in the wine?

  147. Capella says:

    Well I think it’s safe to say that the unionists have grasped the concept. I’m not surprised that SNP politicians say “Both votes SNP”. They kinda have to say that.

    But journalists and bloggers could just examine the concept and say where they think we’re wrong. Isn’t that the job of a journalist? Look out the window and see if it is actually raining?

    I’m interested to hear what Alex Salmond thinks of the idea, when he decides to speak out.

  148. MaggieC says:

    I’ve been out shopping this afternoon but have managed to watch the opposition day debate led by the Snp in Westminster for the last hour and the whole of Scotland should be made to watch it and listen to these arrogant tories the way that they talk about Scotland .

    They really are are arrogant about Scotland and Scotland’s people . I’m sure if more people watched it we would have more people be calling for Independence now .

  149. Roberto says:

    Bill McLean

    SNP Troll…dead easy to spot the SNP pervs on here.

    You’ll also be for men entering women Only spaces Bill???

    Thought so.

  150. Roberto says:

    Watching STV News and there are hairdressers wearing full face visors with NO mask over their mouths.

    All they are doing is trapping the virus underneath their visor and increasing their chances of catching Covid19.

    I think somebody needs to have a quite word with them.

  151. Alec Lomax says:

    Roberto – day off from the SIU?

  152. MaggieC says:

    Me @ 6.08 pm

    * I’m sure if more people watched it * now * , we would have more people calling for Independence now * .

    I’ve never had high blood pressure in my life but it’s gone right off the scale today listening to all of them .

    They keep going on about how much money we’ve had from the Uk gov , what about the money England has had from us .

    The Snp need to get their finger out and it’s time to get out of * their precious union * now and tell them to stick it where the sun doesn’t shine .

  153. C C Lohmar says:

    I can not understand why all the SNP well-wisher can not admit that there is a significant amount of voters that desire Scotland’s independence but hate the SNP.
    Those well-wishers also ignore that the Scottish Greens are not a serious option for many of those voters, leaving them “homeless”.
    The Fact is, the SNP does not like to have other Pro-Independence MSPs in Holyrood. A significant majority (+75%) for YES in the parliament would put pressure on the SNP to take action.
    Just to be clear, I support the SNP in there day2day politics but I don’t like that one party holds the absolute power – look at Westminster, the absolute Tory power is driving the UK to the abyss.

  154. twathater says:

    If I can possibly appeal to ANY prospective candidate who is willing to put themselves forward for the Independence For Scotland Party (IfSP) in HR if we aren’t independent yet (ha, ha) to include in your manifesto a COMMITMENT to lodge a LEGAL complaint to the ICJ and UN through the Scottish Parliament , that through england acting as the UK parliament and ignoring and overruling Scotland’s sovereign people’s wishes to remain in the EU they have effectively broken the TOU and as such the union is now DISSOLVED where a referendum will be held in due course by the SG to ratify that decision

  155. CameronB Brodie says:

    The ToU is international law, and indicates Scotland and England are equal legal entities.

    Any UK negation with the EU that insists Scottish resources are Westminster’s to bargain with, should be considered a clear act of misappropriation and THEFT by an English aggressor, a.k.a. English Torydum, which is alien culture to Scotland.

  156. jfngw says:


    Your trolling is terrible, you really need to up your game.

    1/10 for effort. When do the schools go back?


    Pissing in the wine! Do I detect a Wetherspoons drinker?

  157. Effijy says:

    ITV News at least acknowledges Scotland being first UK country
    To have had Zero Covid deaths for a full 7 days, but

    Interview an English B & B owner on Scottish Island of Coll,
    The English resident in Edinburgh and the Glasgow Hair Dresser .
    Taylor Fergus, Millionaire Tory supporter, who thinks Scotland should
    Have followed England and came out of lockdown earlier?

    What an idiot Taylor.
    Because we didn’t follow England we have our first full week of No Covid Deaths.

    If we followed clowns like you and Boris we would have more infections and more deaths
    And we would have areas like Leicester and Blackburn who need to return to lockdown!

    Well Done England’s ITV for travelling far and wide never to interview a citizen from the 54%
    Pro independence poll.

    It’s a skill from a shill.

  158. Roberto says:

    More hairdressers on the BBC Scotland News wearing full face visors with NO mask covering their mouths.

    The virus is just going to get trapped under their face visors.

    Nicola, if you are reading this then you need to have a word with them.

  159. CameronB Brodie says:

    Nah, but I did to work in catering. 🙂

  160. Karmanaut says:

    Spot on.

  161. Roberto says:


    Another SNP Troll.

    You’ll be another one of Nicola’s Perv supporters who agrees with her that men should get access to women only safe spaces.

    The SNP, the Party of the Pervs.

    Less and less people admitting to being an SNP member.

  162. G H Graham says:

    Maybe the unionist press know more about Sturgeon’s bullshit promises & nauseating phony excuses about why we should postpone yet again, the next referendum, than they care to admit?

    Maybe they have concluded or even know that she has no real interest in jeopardising all that she and Obergruppenführer Murrel (maybe he’s been promoted to Reichsführer but its hard to tell what the hell is going on inside the inner sanctum of the self indulgent SNP executive) have established these past six years or so; fat salaries and expenses, cosy pensions, comfortable jobs, time on their hands to dabble with extreme, nanny state interventions & a relatively calm relationship with the Scottish & English Establishment.

    And readers must surely have realised that Sturgeon’s light touch relationship with the mostly hostile pro BritNat media is just a game; pretending not to upset even the most ardent Unionist while attempting to demonstrate administrative competence. She’s good at it too but the slight of hand tricks are as old as a Paul Daniels magic card routine. The less fanatical among independent minded voters are bored with her daily, routine con trick.

    Furthermore, everyone knows that the opposition from Labour & the Conservatives (the Lib Dems are truly irrelevant so barely worth a mention here) are as useful & desirable as a torn condom dispenser in an STD clinic.

    So it’s no big surprise that any mention of a new independent focused party draws out the venom from the usual suspects who also have found themselves in a stable & reliable relationship with the Scottish government.

    Since there’s no prospect of independence under the current leadership, there’s no need to worry about a shakeup of the TV broadcasting framework, regulations, oversight or anything that changes the status quo. You can conclude the same for print media too.

    All this does then is confirm that a new independence focused party is EXACTLY what Scotland does need. That party will undermine the current administration’s laissez-faire attitude & cause the Scottish & English establishments to have an aneurysm.

    I only amazed that it has taken this long for folks to finally waken up.

  163. Tom Kelly says:

    GRA is the new blasphemy law.

  164. Tinto Chiel says:

    Liz g: “Anyhoo…As I understand it a strong showing by a list party would mean that they were in a good position in the horse trading over getting legislation through Holyrood and the SNP would have to come to the table on the GRA.”

    That seems to me a good point, Liz. It would be good to put a spanner in the Woke wheels if the leadership persists with the GRA nonsense up to the elections next year. It would be a real incentive to vote for that party beyond the obvious arithmetic one.

    I’ve been struggling with the concept of voting for a different independence party on the list as “splitting the vote” when it is quite separate and SNP 1&2 has such poor returns for the handicapped “landslide” party from Vote 1.

    Indeed, you could argue the ones causing any split are the party leadership with their bizarre behaviour on Brexit, GRA and The Salmond Affair.

    I might just be wrong 🙂 but I suspect the bile directed at The Rev. on this issue (and others) from other “independistas” is simple animus derived from his annoying habit of being right about most things in his abrasive, sweary way and his refusal to ignore the potential dangers of GRA.

    Ian B: “Sadly, Dougie D is living proof of how much damage a lanyard can do.” Good job I wasn’t eating or drinking when I read that.

    Seems a stiletto can do as much damage as a glaive…..

  165. Capella says:

    @ MaggieC – I watched it as well till I had to turn it off. We had the “broad shoulders” the “biggest market is England” the “pooling and sharing” the “help in tackling Covid” etc etc. Broken record.

    Hope the SNP decide to quit now. The vote will be a NO. Oddly, there wee no Labour MPs there at all. That point was raised several times. What is wrong with them? Too embarrassed?

  166. jfngw says:


    Possibly, I think we’ve met, but you called yourself Rosallina then though, didn’t you.! Nice legs.

  167. Kenny says:

    People are wondering why the SNP is so violently against a new pro-indy list party.

    Think about it. If they are seen at Holyrood to push for indy and to oppose woke nonsense, the whole YES movement will desert the SNP for them come the next elections.

    When did the membership of the SNP explode? I will tell you. After September 2014. It is the YES movement who does all the campaigning, canvassing, pays subs…

    Personally, I think it is good news that so many can see through the insincere lies of Sturgeon, Blackford, Robertsonn and the woke nonsense of Smith, Nicholson et al. Imagine if we will blindly believed them!

    Incidentally, Stu was telling us ages ago that Sturgeon was not speaking the truth on promising an indyref. It is the Labour Party all over again, pretending to be defending Scotland against that horrible big bad Westminster, believing that they were entitled to our votes. What next? Jim Murphy invited to speak at an SNP conference?

  168. Beaker says:

    @jfngw says:
    15 July, 2020 at 6:44 pm
    “Pissing in the wine! Do I detect a Wetherspoons drinker?”

    In Wetherspoons that gives the drinks some flavour instead of the love-in-a-canoe crap they sell 🙂

  169. jfngw says:


    Try the Château Covid-19, leaves you breathless.

  170. schrodingers cat says:


    Château Covid-19,

    an amusing little wine, it helps to have a sense of humour 🙂

  171. mike cassidy says:

    Pause for a laugh.

    Chris Grayling reinforces his reputation as King Midas In Reverse

    By failing to be elected to the Chair Of Intelligence and Security Committee

    Despite 5 of the nine voters being Conservatives

  172. Contrary says:


    I raised my eyebrows at some of those example articles.

    I am sick of hearing about ‘gaming’ the system, ‘split’ the Indy vote etc. What is the problem with giving me a choice?! It’s not like I am going to ever be given a chance to vote for independence anyway.

    I asked Craig Dalzell on his commongreen site why he used the term ‘gaming’ the system, and he said its POSSIBLE that the seats gained MIGHT be misrepresentative of pro- and anti-Indy – so what? That’s the system, if the anti-Indy mob don’t like it I’m sure they’ll change it. And the thing is – an MSP represents more than just constitutional ideas. Craig was discussing ways to get independence and had already argued that a plebiscite at Holyrood should probably be based on number of votes rather than number of seats – well, there you go, so what does it matter there is an unrepresentative majority pro-Indy MSPs? AND – it is only ‘possible’ – yes it’s possible, but we don’t actually know that’ll happen, and if the naysayers get their (weirdo democracy-denying) way we will never find out!

    it is POSSIBLE we MIGHT get hit by an asteroid sometime in the next billion years, so you’d best get started building that emergency shelter.

  173. Graeme says:

    Forming a party to stand in a democratic election legally and within the rules is not gaming the system,

    Sleekitly changing the law retrospectively in order to circumvent laws passed by a democratically elected parliament (power grab 1) is gaming the system.

    Forming an unelected body to undermine the competence of a democratically elected parliament (power grab 2) is gaming the system.

    The system is already rigged it’s time it was rigged in our favour for once

  174. CameronB Brodie says:

    re. the proposed GRA amendments. There are three accepted models of human judgement; logic, psychology, and phenomenology. The proposed amendments would restrict the legal understanding of the world to the purely psychological. This is neither logical or sensitive to the human condition, and would impair biological women’s access to economic, social, and cultural rights.

    re. Brexit. There are three strands of legal thinking in constitutional jurisprudence, which seeks to faithfully describe the state of nature; positive law, natural law, and socioeconomic law. Brexit restricts the British constitution’s description of the world to purely positive law. This is neither moral or “just”, and prevents those living in Scotland from accessing human rights, which are INDIVISIBLE.

    European Social Charter and European Convention on Human Rights

  175. jfngw says:

    @mike cassidy

    Very amusing, looks like his ship has sailed (does he have a ship).

  176. robbo says:

    We’ll be fine as long as we vote the opposite of Roberto, the dug,the idiot,and the few others that pop up.

    Keep the faith folks,their rattled them yoons.

  177. mike cassidy says:

    Last word on King Midas In Reverse

    Make sure the sound is on.

  178. Liz g says:

    Twathater @ 6.30
    I could live with that….or something close.
    I’ve even been considering joining ISP which would be a first for me as a member of a party.
    Mainly to have a voice on stuff like this,I reckon there’s a good few things that they could stand on that would be popular….one ironically being modernisation of the list system a two term cap or a no party system where it’s local reps sent by each region and nothing to do with any party or each other,sent only to protect and advocate for their own area.
    Also a commitment to have local government voting simplified stuff like that.
    Not to mention my Constitution obsession 🙂
    There’s also one around Scottish water that I’ve already passed on and that’s a doozy…. 🙂

  179. jfngw says:


    There is nothing wrong with splitting your vote, the system was designed for you to do that. If it wasn’t the list distribution could be made from the percentages of the constituency vote.

    But if you are splitting it for just tactical reasons you need to weigh up the conditions on voting day as to whether your vote could end up putting a smile on Carlaw’s or Leonard’s face (or god forbid Rennie’s). Just keep your eye’s on the polls closer to the time.

    I don’t see any point risking making Carlaw FM just because you don’t like Nicola Sturgeon.

  180. Brian Doonthetoon says:

    It’s interesting, the way a commenter btl here, will post a comment and, when it attracts no immediate reaction, he/she will repeat it 26 minutes later…

  181. Capella says:

    A reminder that the Hate Crime Bill is calling for views until 24th July so make your opinion known here:

    In case you want a reminder of where we are in Scotland with under the radar changes to law, custom and practice, Here’s a short summary of the main changes from Forwomen Scot. Quite a catalogue of horrors:

  182. mike cassidy says:

    Sky News reporting that the Tory MP who got the job that was meant for Chris Grayling

    Has been placed on the naughty step.

    Or had the whip removed as they say in Westminster.

  183. Mike d says:

    My family in Scotland are waiting to see the SNP’s mandate in 2021. No plebiscite vote for indy, no vote for the SNP.

  184. Capella says:

    @ BDTT – a bot? It was quite odd that when we all started commenting in Franglais all the trolls fell silent. Bots? Not programmed to respond to non language!

  185. Liz g says:

    Tinto Chiel @ 6.59
    The ironic thing is ( and I’ve not seen any of the people shouting about Vote Splitting,Indy Risking,Sturgeon Hating,Sytem Gaming say it)

    IF the SNP or anyone else really want to stop the new party and prove Wings wrong….then all they have to do is deliver what they were elected to do!

    How is it put…
    show not tell…
    A route map of phases.
    Put the Westminster MPs and the MSPs not involved in the Covid response to work.
    Everybody’s problems solved! 🙂

  186. Dr Jim says:

    Folk should quite rightly vote for whoever and whichever political party they choose but this bullcrap about it being to help the cause of Independence is embarrassing lies

  187. mike cassidy says:

    I know I said no more Grayling.

    But I’m close to believing in astrology here.

    Cos he was born on the first of April.

    I need to to do a Capella and go and watch a doomy boxset on Netflix.

  188. Beaker says:

    @jfngw says:
    15 July, 2020 at 7:57 pm
    “Very amusing, looks like his ship has sailed (does he have a ship).”

    He ordered one from Virgin Atlantic, to be delivered to Pacific Quay, catering to include milk from Cowes…

  189. Contrary says:

    Craig Murray gave a presentation to Glasgow Pensioners for Independence group a week or so ago: I think it’s a realistic take on where we are and options of what can be done, and a realistic view on how serious we need to be about being an independent country.

    The presentation isn’t very smooth maybe but the content is worthwhile listening to I think:

    (The second part with questions is good too)

  190. Beaker says:

    Re Chris Grayling, Angela Rayner has just tweeted the following:

    “Julian Lewis MP has the Tory Whip removed after being elected as Chairman of the Intelligence and Security Select Committee, after beating hapless Chris Grayling.”

    The title of this topic is so apt, although not in the way expected.

    Never mind civil war in the indy movement, it looks like it’s about to erupt in the Conservative Party. And rumour has it that the report on Russia is going to be released next week.

  191. Bob Mack says:

    @Dr Jim,

    I see you’ve returned from Wee Ginger Dug where you think the Rev is an agent of MI6 or such like.

    I think there is more chance it’s yourself who is supporting infiltrators of the Indy movement by your dogged support of the SNP, good or bad.

  192. jfngw says:

    Boris Johnson has agreed to an independent inquiry on the corona virus response. No doubt this means it will be led by Dominic Cummings and be released directly after the Russia Report.

  193. wull says:

    Since the system was installed to ‘game’ the voting public, why shouldn’t the voting public ‘game’ the system?

    If you live by the game, you die by the game!

    Even on GRA (NS’s would-be swan song?) the game could be up, as well …

    Who knows? There might just be an SNP backbench rebellion against the new GRA / hate crime legislation.

    Before it was put about in its new form by Humza, I had an assurance (in writing) from my long-standing backbench SNP MSP that if GRA legislation came before the Holyrood parliament, he would vote against it.

    I have no reason to doubt that he will do as he says he will … But I will only finally believe it when I see it.

    Even as he said this, he still claimed to be absolutely behind NS, and wouldn’t have anything said against her. Lese-majeste is a capital offence, after all …

    But maybe, just maybe, his loyalty on that score too could begin to crumble …

    After all, he has a fair conceit of himself, and is not plagued by self-doubt or false modesty. After all these years in Holyrood, she never anything anything like a top job, though he obviously thinks he is worthy of one.

    With a finger in the air, he (and others like him?) might just be beginning to think the wind is blowing in another direction now … Don’t know if he’s got the bottle required for it – but maybe … Who knows?

    On ye go, man, chance it! Just for aince … Or haud yer wheesht an’swalley yer tongue for aye, man.

  194. wull says:

    Sorry … Some mistakes there, as in … ‘After all these years in Holyrood, she never gave him anything like a top job’ …

  195. Rm says:

    The same party’s, the same politicians, the same things spoken about but not delivered on, nothing ever really changes, why not mix things up a bit with a new party, hopefully they’ll be more genuine and maybe change things for normal working people in Scotland.

  196. Jonathan Marshall says:

    Hmmm…. well the only thing that beats getting told I am a cheate. is getting told lm a fascist by a certain Ex Labour MP in the run up to the 2014 vote probably because I dared dream we could do better. Excellent article! Points out just how corrupt the powers that be are.

  197. Stoker says:

    Dr Jim wrote on 15 July, 2020 at 8:32 pm:

    “…this bullcrap about it being to help the cause of Independence is embarrassing lies.”

    OK! Prove to us how this is embarrassing lies. Or as I suspect you can’t then please, at least, explain to us why it is embarrassing lies. Without explanation it just seems like your bias opinion.

    I for one would truly like to read why it’s embarrassing lies. I’d love to see some statistical evidence to back up that claim. I’ve seen a few folk hold this view, or one very similar, but when asked not one of them can show us the statistical facts to back it up.

    I’m not attempting to yank your chain or make a fool of you, I honestly want to be shown this is all lies. After all, you are stating this with such confidence I want to know why, I want to know what you know, if there’s anything to know. It’s how we learn what’s true and what’s, well, bullcrap.

  198. jfngw says:

    Posted enough today, tomorrow I will be celebrating my 66th birthday by taking my wife to get her hair done (she’s a bit excited about that) and going to the supermarket.

    I bought this LP when I was 16 in 1970, now it’s about me.

  199. Balaaargh says:

    It’s only cheating because they’re losing.

    Meanwhile, I think most of us have heard this before:

  200. Capella says:

    @ jfngw – steady on old boy! – Have a happy birthday. In fact start tonight. 🙂

  201. Effijy says:

    To save you waiting for Boris’ Independent Inquiry for the handling of the Covid Virus
    I can tell you his Dad found that Boris played a blinder and no one could ever have done better.

    Move on now!

    Cost £5 Million from tax payer for 2 ours of his Dad’s time.

  202. Stoker says:

    John Lamont, a bigger bum than ten arses:

  203. Bob Mack says:

    Just for anybody interested.

    Report tomorrow in Lancet ‘re Oxford vaccine results. Looks very very encouraging. Apparently produces antibodies in large numbers.

    Our suffering may be nearly over.

  204. twathater says:

    @ Liz G 8.12pm Liz seriously I do hope you sign up for the ISP I have asked you before as I think your common sense approach and lived life experience comes across in your comments , and your bovine excrement detector is quite good too

    Again like Breeks I think a legal proven acceptance by the ICJ and UN regarding Scots sovereignty would have a massive positive impact on other countries recognition of Scotland as an entity , which as we all know should have been undertaken before now
    I know people have been asking what is going to be in the ISP manifesto and a COMMITMENT to a legal challenge would NOT be against the SNP policies and ANYONE opposing that would show people their true colours

    SERIOUSLY though if you did sign up I would ASK (plead) that you would force Breeks ,Lorna Campbell and Bailey to also come on board with you which would complement the party and the party would gain from their experiences
    Do it , Do it , Do it

  205. CameronB Brodie says:

    Talking of about old friends, I’d forgotten how to use science and law to defend democracy and justify Scotland’s self-determination. It all appears to be coming out in the correct order though, which is nice. 🙂

    Full text.

    Cognitive Theory and Phenomenology in Arendt’s and Nussbaum’s Work on Narrative

    In this essay I compare Nussbaum’s and Arendt’s approach to narrativity. The point of the comparison is to find out which approach is more adequate for practical philosophy: the approach influenced by cognitive theory (Nussbaum) or the one influenced by hermeneutic phenomenology (Arendt).

    I conclude that Nussbaum’s approach is flawed by methodological solipsism, which is due to her application of cognitive theory.

  206. Ian R Murray says:

    What happens if the new party does take 1st votes away from the SNP ?

    I know I should know this but I think I was off school that day

  207. Liz g says:

    Ian R Murry @ 9.34
    They can’t Ian because they are not putting up a Candidate for that vote.
    Their names will only be for the 2nd vote

  208. Gary45% says:

    jfngw, Have a good one, Happy 66th.

  209. schrodingers cat says:

    a valid criticism, there are too many indy list parties now.

    but i think it should be possible for new indy list parties to come to some kind of agreement before the election, eg stand under an umbrella alliance or stand only in certain regions etc

    or if public opinion and celebrity endorsement swings behind any specific new indy list party, the others can resign and switch to the chosen party 🙂

  210. Liz g says:

    Twathater @ 9.29
    Thanks Twathater 🙂
    I am seriously considering it,but I’m not sure if I’m a diplomatic enough person for party politics….a lot of them don’t seem to want to be told ” away and no be so bliddy stupit “…we’ll see 🙂

  211. Liz g says:

    Happy Birthday for tomorrow xxx

  212. CameronB Brodie says:

    Sorry, I kind of left that a bit ambiguous. Narrative environments pretty much define our potential for political participation. Hence the BBC in Scotland and the yoonstream.

    Arendt, phenomenology and narrative environments

  213. schrodingers cat says:

    leasky getting nervous me thinks

    David Leask

    Aren’t these list Indy parties an attempt by people who hate the snp, its leaders and its values to tap in to the popularity of the snp, its leaders and its values in order to get elected to Holyrood where they can undermine the snp, its leaders and its values?

    It just looks to me like the same zoomerhive that always feigned zealous loyalty to the cause while simultaneously undermining it. And then moved from covert attacks on the snp to overt ones. They might be trying to game the system, but not on behalf of Indy or the snp.

    I mean, if you want to run on tickets like “stop Nicola Sturgeon”, “boo to the woke Nazis” or “I don’t like the gays” or “up the revolution, down with the Murrells”, or “poor Vlad Putin is misunderstood” then cool, go, ahead, your shout. Just don’t pretend to be what you’re not.

  214. Brian Doonthetoon says:

    The past couple of weeks, I have found myself raising my left eyebrow on a number of occasions – TWICE today.


    Because people who feel confident enough to actually post btl here, are appallingly ignorant about what goes on at a Holyrood election, when it’s been explained here umpteen times over the past few years.

    In a Holyrood election, we have 2 votes. One is to elect a constituency MSP. The other is to elect a party (or independent) for the region you vote in.

    Neither vote is “first” or “second” preference. They are totally separate – one for a constituency MSP; one for a regional MSP taken from a party list (you don’t have a choice on who is on a party’s list) or an independent.

    If you’re understanding this for the first time, highlight, copy and paste this text and share it everywhere until your fingers fall off.

  215. Andrew Bentley-Steed says:

    Ewan Steed @ 3.35

    My Dad speaking from Ayrshire there! So proud!

    My MSP is David Torrance and he’s on the committee that made this GRA nonsense. Friends in the local Kirkcaldy branch said that when he was challenged under the non-incumbency rule, it was f*cking brutal and caused a number of fellow (female) members to reconsider their membership. A couple left to join the Greens.

    I’ve not been SNP since I was at Heriot-Watt and was disgusted at the way female members were treated, so never went to another meeting of the Student Nationalists. I admire any woman who can stick out politics and make a success of their career but the absolute refusal by SG to listen to folk with concerns about the GRA and worse, the stramash that is the Hate Bill, has made me reconsider ever voting SNP again.

    Unlike my Dad, I’m on Twitter and wow… I was getting used to the TWAW making threats of violence against women (Christ, look at that sentence: “getting used” to seeing threats of violence…) but the absolute vitriol being thrown at anyone who dares suggest they are considering voting for a different pro-independence list party has made me wonder what sort of beast we’ve created. Is it no wonder that women in Scotland feel they must put their energy into making a different party that defends their hard-won biological rights?

    When I read George Kerevan’s article last week about Buccleuch’s team being the business advisors to the FM, I nearly vomited. What sort of independence are we going to get if we don’t confront the vested interests that we’re trying so hard to overcome? How did the SNP let itself get so hard infiltrated?

    I’m glad that though Rev Stu lost his Twitter feeds, he’s still making this website (and I really wish I had some spare change to support your work but I’m a student still furloughed from my p/t job) because it’s a much-needed voice of sanity and insightful analysis.

    As much as we desperately need to escape the UK’s clutches before 31 December when Boris and his bodgers will be able to do WTF they like to our devolved parliament, I think we all need to be asking harder questions of our local MSPs.

    I wonder what are the views of people reading this comment on joining the SNP (if they’re not already members) and trying to exfiltrate the dead wood and so complement the work of other pro-indy list parties.

  216. Capella says:

    @BDTT – radio silence since your observation at 8.21. Spooky. Maybe it triggers a loop in the code. Keep stum though.

  217. Andy Ellis says:


    Some of the indy list parties will be as successful as RISE/SSP. Yes, it would be better if there was one & led by a big hitter, but we’ll just have to wait and see…..

  218. Capella says:

    @ ABS – wow – interesting post. I am a member and have made my views known at Branch, constituency and MSP level. Not that I’ve noticed much response. The GRA was pulled last year following a consultation. But then it reappeared in the form of a new bill. But that was shelved because of Covid-19. So it may reappear.

    A lot of damage has already been done under the radar. See the ForwomenScotland list already circulated. This reflects the influence TRA groups have at every level of society – police, courts, prison, health, education, university, NRS, media and political institutions. Far beyond the each of any one political party.

    The ISP represents the best idea in a long time to challenge the power of the Greens in influencing policy at Holyrood. A majority without being in thrall to swivel eyed science deniers would be a step in the right direction IMO.

    That’s if there isn’t a major collapse of normal politics long before the Holyrood election.

  219. Brian Doonthetoon says:

    Aye, Capella.

    Kid be thah if wee olter the wiye wiz spell stuff, it may fruck them up?

    Eh’m gemme furra treh…


  220. Liz g says:

    Shrodingers Cat @ 10.04
    Only if ye make the presumption that it’s about the SNP!
    I’d make yer point right back at ye,are these objections really what they seem to be or are they something different?

    Try seeing it from what the SIP have said their aim is and it’s the little mentioned taking of the Unionist seats.

    If independence wasn’t on the table, what is so wrong about aiming to put people in Holyrood that aren’t in the pay of the London parties.
    Independence actually being on the table is only an issue in this instance if the new party didn’t back it,but they do!

    I don’t mind having a debate about anyone running on take the British Nationalists seats but they should be clear that’s what they are arguing shouldn’t be happening!

  221. velofello says:

    Rev. – a wee reminder might help this discussion – list voting numbers cast that “secured” Annie Wells, Murdo Fraser et al, for us as list MSPs.

  222. Ian McCubbin says:

    Totally with you in every person quoted.
    Gravy train for all.
    Where is the secret place wherenthe sign up to con us all into the myth of gravy tomorrow if you work for gruell today.

    It’s become less than a farce.
    I give the best to any pro Independence party.
    Have put my esteem behind YES 2 am auctioning a painting for them.
    It is another what if of 2 Typhoons in Scottish Airforce colours flying up a fog bound Tay Valley.
    Inovation, creativity and rights of humans will endure to get us Independence despite the SNP.

  223. Kenny says:

    Julian Lewis was head of the Defence Committee and very ably held the government to account. Grayling by comparison, well…

    Johnson must have something to fear if Lewis has had the whip withdrawn. In my mind, someone like Lewis should be heading the Conservative Party, not a chancer like BJ.

    It is a shame that Scottish politics does not seem to be really any better, when decent politicians are attacked from inside their own party, thrown under the bus (while other members and elected representatives get away with appalling behaviour). All because they pursue a certain line. NS is not so very different from BJ.

    Also, how can something like Humza’s hate laws or the GRA nonsense be allowed to be passed by just a unicameral parliament? The SNP should not be passing laws in just one chamber, but should boycott all legislation and focus on one thing: independence, when Scotland can have its own bicameral system. Until then, we should not be passing any “devolved legislation” at all. Power devolved is power removed.

  224. schrodingers cat says:

    @liz g

    are you talking about the leask twitter post??

  225. schrodingers cat says:

    lis g

    i have been promoting tactical voting since 2014 on this site specifical to get rid of unionist list msps

  226. Liz g says:

    Andrew & Capella
    I’m not a member,but a few friends are and they have had the same experience in their branch in N.Lanarkshire.
    They actually staged a protest at the Conference a few year’s back after using every avenue open to them with no luck!
    They sweated blood about drawing negative media attention but felt they had no choice….even then they got nada zilch from in acknowledgement from the party.
    They’ve all left now too.
    All this was around the time Robert Peffers was telling anybody who would listen that every member had an equal say and the mechanism to be heard were in place while I knew fine well they weren’t.

  227. Liz g says:

    Shrodingrs Cat @ 10.36 & 10.43
    Yes I am,and yes I know you have
    Sorry my comment was badly worded,I was on the phone 🙂

    The main thrust was that the new partys (ISP) focus is to get the Unionist seats and all that’s being discussed is the affect on the SNP….

  228. Roberto says:

    Better come back later,,,, walked in on an SNP Pervs meeting.

    Geez a shout when ye finish Pervs.

  229. Roberto says:

    The SNP members on here are made up of:


    And any other depraved sections of society you can think of.

    The SNP, the Party where anything is on the table,,,except Scottish Independence

  230. @Brian Doonthetoon,

    if citizens who read political blogs still struggle to fully grasp the machinations of the Holyrood voting system what chance for Joe and Josephine Soap,

    i mean jeezo it couldnae be simpler,

    `The region is made up of several constituencies.
    The regional votes are counted.
    Regional seats are decided using the D’Hondt Formula
    The D’Hondt Formula – how does it work?

    Regional Votes ÷ Number of MSPs already won in region + 1
    The Party or person with the largest number after this formula is applied wins the
    round and wins one regional MSP.
    This formula will be used 7 times in 7 rounds to elect 7 regional MSPs.`

    there is a seven page document to clarify the system ,

  231. CameronB Brodie says:

    Robert Peffers had his fans, and even though I’m not one of them, I hope he’s keeping well. He did have a rather dated and ‘unique’ perspective, I’ll give him that. It just a pity he also lacked tact and respect for others.

    Journal of Human Rights, Volume 9, 2010 – Issue 3
    Hannah Arendt’s “Right to Have Rights”: A Philosophical Context for Human Security

  232. Roberto says:

    The SNP brand name is now toxic.

    It is associated with being an Anti-independence Party

    Pro GRA
    Pro Hate Crime Bill

    Their leader is a self serving fraudster.

    Sturgeon sends out her gullable worshippers to spread the false word that she alone can deliver Independence.

    But the majority of the Yes Movement have had enough of her lies and are now looking to others to lead us to Independence.

  233. Capella says:

    @ Liz g – TRA MO was spelt out some time ago by one of the office bearers of Stonewall. I forget his name. Anyway, they work under the radar. They avoid any publicity or discussion at a public level. They prefer to meet behind closed doors with the civil servants who write up the policy. He also said that they deliberately began with the prison service because if they could crack that then they knew that education, health, police etc would be easy.

    Will look for the source of that. Was on twitter ages ago.

    You can see this with NRS changing the definition of “sex” in the 2021 Census. Politicians in Holyrood were quite clear that that should remain as it always was. However, it soon emerged that the guidelines were changed to allow transgender people to answer that question however they wanted. This is actually illegal AFAIK as it is a statutory question which must answered and answered truthfully.

    But transgender people would feel uncomfortable. So the data is rendered useless. This in spite of a letter from a group of academics dealing with statistics asking for it to remain as it was for data collection and validation purposes. The Minister daling with this is/was Fiona Hyslop.

  234. Capella says:

    @ BDTT – theory bites dust. Back to the drawing board. Manyana.:)

  235. Alec Lomax says:

    SiU trolls out in force tonight.

  236. schrodingers cat says:

    @liz g

    i support tactical voting exactly because it removes unionist list msps and doesnt harm the snp cos they have little chance of winning list seats anyway

    I dont mind the “nicola ate my hamster brigade” on here, if it encourages list tactical voting, good.

    also, it puts a dividing line betweemn them and the snp, one which the snp would have drawn anyway but it will make it difficult for the unionist msm to blame the snp. its a win win in my book

  237. Brian Doonthetoon says:

    Hi Capella.

    Their third single…

  238. Capella says:

    @ BDTT – groovy huh? 🙂

  239. iain mhor says:

    Indeed, democracy deniers all, though democracy is ill defined and always evolving.

    If we except the minefield of the UK’s ‘constitutional democracy’ (which isn’t) then ‘electoral democracy’ in the UK as we know it (representation of the people) only began for most in 1969, when 18 yr olds were given the vote.
    But that was still not very close to democracy – that surely only got close with the Electoral Administration Act 2006 – when 18yr olds were allowed to stand for the UK Parliament.

    That barely 14 year old level of ‘democracy’, still didn’t really address the concept of ‘no taxation without representation’; otherwise 16 yr olds would currently have the vote and ability to stand for Parliament. Would we consider that to be a fair benchmark of electoral democracy if implemented?

    What of Scotlands unique democratic choice of voting? Well, we have currently 3 models (there were 4, but we don’t need to bother our arses with MEP’s anymore do we? We can discard FPTP for a G.E as undemocratic representation – which leaves STV & AMS – do we call these systems democracy?

    Either of these are fairly democratic, but they can be improved upon. There have been recommendations for such improvements.
    The Arbuthnott Commission included one which was very simple, did not affect vote share in any way and certainly was more democratic – that was to move to an ‘Open-List’

    Currently we vote on a regional list in the hope of getting someone who doesn’t eat glue for lunch – but we have no idea whether that will be the case. It’s a ‘closed-list’ and the candidate our vote is allocated to will be decided by the party.

    This must be a consideration and perhaps a difficulty, when contemplating voting for a new list only party. I may support the party’s principles in general; but there’s a chance it’s a halfwit who parks their arse at Holyrood.
    It would be nice to get a hint, nice to weed them out of any fledgling party pronto – and doubly so for the major parties.

    We decide our constituency candidates and regional councillors, (even MP’s) so why the opacity here? It seems fair to allow the voter to decide – especially with the constituency vote being FPTP – which is the whole reason a list needed bolted on to make it more democratic.
    But unfortunately ‘Arbuthnott’ was given the bum’s rush. Not that Scotland could have implemented the recommendations anyway, as most were (and still are) ‘protected subject matters’.

    So before one considers whether the entirely democratic act of creating a political party in Scotland, is ‘cheating democracy’ – we have to ponder what democracy is, what democracy we would like, whether we could implement it even if we wanted to and the reasons why anyone would oppose such democracy in the first place.

    Democracy is a moveable feast and in Scotland it is defined for us. Not just some elements reserved for Westminster, but much also it seems; reserved to the very many, democracy denying arseholes (many who benefit from obscure closed-list appointments) and who would happily deny ‘independent’ list-only parties from standing.

    Maybe they could all form a list-only Party with that in their manifesto – or perhaps they could just scream loudly instead and hope to cancel out democracy. It’s all the rage I hear.

  240. Robert graham says:

    Bob Mack @ 8:42 yep Sussed that one out a while ago , along with the others in the wee coven that inhabit the site this lot hunt in packs , make a remark about how after 6 years we’ve gained absolutely nada nothing and they pounce like fkn Jackals , The thing is they can’t admit anything is wrong at the top of the SNP so they go for any of these Real. Independence Parties that have only set up because of the useless management at the top , the new parties just want to keep the SNP HONEST and get off their fkn fat arses and get the job they are there to do DONE .

  241. schrodingers cat says:

    twitter have blocked all verified accounts after being hacked 🙂

  242. msean says:

    The Unionist party election strategists probably can’t believe their luck that us separatists haven’t tried this Indy Party stuff before.

    It’s why we have serial non winners winning list seats in Holyrood.

    If there has to be non winners via the list,let them be list Indy non winners.Also,can the Scottish Parliament bring in term limits for serial losers,say,gain a seat via the list no more than twice without contesting a constituency seat? For EVERY party.

  243. CameronB Brodie says:

    Democracy and democratic process are a bit like concrete, which remains a liquid for a very long time, even when capable of providing strength to formal structures.

    Économie publique/Public economics, 07 | 2001/1
    Constitutions and Democracy

  244. Papko says:

    “Robert Peffers had his fans, and even though I’m not one of them, I hope he’s keeping well. He did have a rather dated and ‘unique’ perspective, I’ll give him that. It just a pity he also lacked tact and respect for others.”

    Indeed CBB.
    I think attempted a Wings All time Greatest list a few months ago.
    And Peffers was in the top ten, Rock,Ken500 and Heidtracker were noted.

    Its so hard to find the self-taught, working class philosopher in Scotland now.
    Everyone going to University, may explain the dearth of talent.
    At one time every workplace had a person who had educated themselves on the great authors and thinkers.

    In the Peffers mould.

  245. Al-Stuart says:

    Whilst it is still legal here in Scotland to comment about the trans lobby, I offer up these words…

    In my time I have arrested some hard-core paedophiles and fortunately the courts have found these human reptiles guilty and sent them to the likes of Barlinnie, and less soft options than will be the case after Scotland enacts GRA

    Listening to the sophisticated network of serious sex offenders, it is clear they dedicate their guile, cunning and often high intelligence to gaining sexual control over fresh meat from their P.I.E. So I am sufficiently sure of this:

    A sizeable proportion of the GRA hardcore lobby made it their mission to infiltrate the SNP and bring these dreadful GRA and “Hate” crime llaws to within a hair’s breadth of receiving Royal Assent.

    If/when the GRA laws are passed in Scotland, the 77th Brigade et al., will have played a blinder in their game of political chess -> always four moves ahead to kill Independence for Scotland.

    Why? How?

    Because those of us who know the identity of BIG George, self IDing as Georgina to get access to underage girls in the changing rooms will NOT sit idly by. Sufficient law officers WILL require to have Police Scotland investigated by the Met (as senior ranking UK force so tasked) plus seek judicial relief from the highest courts in the land (in London) to sort out this bourach and stop the sexual predators from attacking women and young girls.

    Ergo the Unionists will have inserted another nail in the coffin of IndyRef2.

    Of course there are souls with serious sexual self-ID problems, but such is the sophistication to the types of sexual criminal I and my colleagues worked hard to keep away from the weans that the dodgy GRA infiltrators of the SNP have themselves been rammed up the jacksie and infiltrated by the very worst devious hardcore sex criminals imaginable.

    Well played 77th Brigade and your ilk.

    Nobody said Independence for Scotland would be easy. But having taken the Revs computer kit way back a few years ago and now knowing everyone’s ID on here; having done everything in your non-lethal playbook to take down Alex Salmond; having skewered Craig Murray, you really are close to the end of your plausible playbook. You are near to the tolerable edge and have not quite thought out all of the end games.

    There are still some cards left for Scotland to play.

    Besides, the gormless puppet you let into 10 Downing Street loathes the Scots. MI* lost control of Boris when he prorogued parliament and I would lay money on BORIS having gamed some of this future political nightmare himself.

    It may just be that the man who described himself as “bursting with spunkk” will decide it is in his best interests to get rid of Scotland.

    Then McSpook Brigade, all your considerable effort will have been in vain. We shall start to hear the music of your shredders screaching through your cache of illegal documents in a harmony matched by the chanter.

    Interesting times.

  246. Mags says:

    Reading through some of these posts it got me thinking the reason sturgeon/snp are not pushing for independence is the fact before taking up their seats in holyrood they had to swear an oath to the queen which would mean the same with westminster as its her government. I get the feeling that she is more loyal and allegiance to england then scotland. Just a thought.

  247. Liz g says:

    Brian Doonthetoon & Scot Findlayson
    For God’s sake the guy only asked a question.

    If you’re scanning through things that interest ye or following a conversation it’s easy to miss stuff.
    And don’t be forgetting both votes SNP which has been punted at us for year’s doesn’t require any thought or time spent checking it out. If someone now considering their options of course they should ask!
    We should be telling every one if they don’t know or can’t remember just ask.
    I for one am glad he did and that’s why I just bloody well answered him.

    We should never be sayin that they should know this stuff by now….

  248. CameronB Brodie says:

    I was unjust, as MR. P had certainly had gone to considerable effort to educated himself, and I hope he returns. Though I hope he has more time for differing opinion, and other things I’ll not go in to as he’s not here right now.

  249. Sarah says:

    O/T: it has only really hit me today how odd it is that the SNP haven’t got a watertight procedure for re-gaining independence all worked out and ready to go. Independence has been the whole point of the SNP for decades.

    I realise that up to 2007 they didn’t expect a chance but the last 13 years has been very different. And anyway, the procedure should have been identified. That’s what contingency planning is for! There shouldn’t be talk only now about setting up a Constitutional Convention – it should have been in place.

    The second thing I don’t understand is why so many commenters are prepared to wait until next May for a vote to be held that might perhaps lead on towards some movement towards doing “something” to claim Scotland’s right to be a free nation again.

    Look at what is happening in the UK government: Cummings dismantling the civil service; contracts worth millions given out to unqualified friends of Ministers or Cummings; the lack of Parliamentary influence over the executive; the incompetence – or is it deliberate policy – in handling the virus. The list is endless.

    How sensible is it for Scotland to wait before answering the question on whether to withdraw from the Union? I suggest it is insanity.

    And a third oddity is the number of Yes supporters who think we have to wait for the polls to be 60% Yes and that meanwhile we have to persuade all those who voted No to change their minds. And we mustn’t put them off so mustn’t really talk very loudly about anything much because their votes are so important.

    For heaven’s sake, we only lost in 2014 by around 194,000 votes. We don’t need to achieve 60% Yes at all, let alone before a date to vote is set. When there is a date people will focus on the issue and visible support will grow.

    But what about having a big enough Yes vote to ensure our status is recognised internationally?, say some. Perhaps some countries support is more important than others – but I think we can count on Ireland recognising any majority as sufficient and bringing the EU on board, don’t you? Add in all the ex-Empire countries, about 60 of them. Surely that is convincing enough.

    And finally, of course there should be more than one explicitly pro-independence party. It keeps the parties honest – no complacency – and makes it more difficult for the BBC and media to outnumber the indy representatives on their programmes etc. It wasn’t “gaming the system” when UKIP/Brexit parties were formed. They had their clear policy and people could vote for it if they wished.

    I think we should stop being loyal followers waiting to be lead by the SNP and start being nagging heel-nippers. There were petitions against the Union in 1706/7 so why not petition Holyrood now? Send a demand for what we want.

  250. Dislogical says:

    It’s very refreshing to have a comments section where there’s a reasonable chance of comments being left when they’re not complete zoomery.

  251. Liz g says:

    Shrodingers Cat @ 11.17
    We’re on exactly the same page with it then.
    I don’t know how it will all pan out but I’m glad they are trying.
    And make no mistake I’d be the first to say they should walk away if it looked like more British MSPs would win in the ballot….and from what I know if them so would they!

  252. Liz g says:

    Mike Cassidy @ 12.24
    I think it’s just the blue tick accounts

  253. CameronB Brodie says:

    Self-preservation is our primary moral responsibility to self and others, as far as I remember. If we don’t maintain our own personal biological integrity, we can’t look out for others. IMHO, it is Scotland’s moral duty to prevent English Torydum from denying us access to our right to be healthy. Which means there are solid moral grounds for us to demand a vote on indy.

    In the mean time, we need a backstop to prevent English Torydum removing Scotland further from international law and order.

    Journal of Trauma Nursing, Jan/March 2008, Volume : 15 Number 1 , page 3 – 4
    EDITORIAL: Duty to Care Versus Duty to Self

  254. schrodingers cat says:

    Mags says:
    I get the feeling that nicola is more loyal and allegiance to england then scotland. Just a thought.


    sometimes i see comments on social media and immediately think the person posting has an IQ less than a crayon

  255. schrodingers cat says:

    at liz g

    aye, but we will know closer to the election

  256. schrodingers cat says:

    liz g

    for all my caustic remarks, i believe we have always been on the same page

  257. Davie Oga says:

    Many leaders throughout the world have received a popularity boost during the pandemic. Arden in NZ, Moon in Korea, Merkel, whose star was waning has seen her approval ratings double during the course of the crisis. Conte and Macron have never been more popular than at the peak of Italian and French deaths. Even Trump hasn’t been hurt that badly. Sturgeon’s competent managerial style, even though it lacks substance, is almost guaranteed to reassure a frightened population.

    A lot can change in 10 months. Momentum is important in electoral campaigns and there is only one way for her approval ratings to go. It’s hard to see how she won’t be damaged by the Salmond inquiry given what we already know. How much is the question. Leslie Evans and the First Minister will not be particularly worried about being questioned by Jackie Baillie et all. It’s Salmond’s elequent touch that they will fear. Sturgeon, LLoyd, and Evans- though the latter is somewhat protected from the fallout given her “impartial” role unless evidence of their criminality emerges.

    The longer it drags into the autumn, the more damaging it will be to the electoral prospects next May. Timing is everything.

    What if the silence from the media over the perjury revealed during the trial, is just being observed until the moment it can cause maximum damage in the run up to the election?

    If it transpires that Nicola Sturgeon, Liz Lloyd, Leslie Evans and SNP HQ conspired to put an innocent man in prison. Where does that leave the independence movement if the First Minister refuses to consider her position?

    Six months from now, those people who belittle the idea of a second independence party today may well swell its ranks. There will be great fear in the inner sanctum of the SNP just now. Covid, Brexit, Trade wars with China. The world will be a very different place next May. The public is very fickle when it comes to popularity contests.

    It’s would be a mistake to assume the SNP will easily take most of the constituency seats. The party would do well to remember that the same independence activists they are threatening and abusing today are the same people that they will be dependent on for constituency votes in May.

    There will be fear in head office these days. Big fear.

  258. Liz g says:

    Shrodingers Cat @ 12.52
    We can only try to
    @ 12.53
    Aye…but don’t spoil all the fun 🙂

  259. CameronB Brodie says:

    Given the FM’s recent close involvement in public health management, I would hope it might persuade her to look outside British constitutional convention and tradition, so as to better protect Scotland’s civic society. My gravest concern though is, that her legal advisors lack knowledge of the law outside the pseudo-legality of British constitutional practice and tradition, e.g. Global Health Law.

    Full text.

    The European Journal of International Law Vol. 28 no. 4
    EJIL (2017), Vol. 28 No. 4, 1069–1095
    The Responsibility to Protect
    beyond Borders in the Law of
    Nature and Nations

  260. James W McCurry says:

    As a SNP member I agree that something must be done about the list system. However the idea that Alex Salmond would lead such a party is outrageous. Sorry Rev but you seem to be attractng people on the site who will probably vote Labour and hate the idea of idependence.
    I will give the site a break. When I read you describing Sturgeon as a ‘liar’ I wonder if we are on the same side.

  261. David R says:

    I’ve asked Kenny and his new friends what is the difference between a new pro-indy party asking SNP voters to give them their second vote and what the Greens, SSP and Rise have done in the past. I’ll not be holding my breath waiting for an answer.

    I’d like to imagine that it’s purely to do with opposition to the GRA or Hate crime bills that is driving the opposition to a new party however what little faith I had in politicians has long since faded away. As a cynical old so and so I’d be more likely to think it’s because they’re all terrified of being pushed into admitting that they are comfortable with devolution and it was all a bit too close last time.

    I’d also imagine that they’re not too keen to have Holyrood infiltrated by the great unwashed with passion and a genuine will to make a change and the competency to do it. A frightening prospect for our political masters who only expect to step out of their wee bubbles during elections.

  262. twathater says:

    @ Sarah 12.14am good informative comment Sarah , thanks

  263. Capella says:

    @ sarah 12.14 – I don’t believe there is a “watertight procedure” for regaining our independent status. Under normal circumstances democracy would be the procedure. We would have a vote. But we don’t live in a democratic state.

    Read the newspaper article posted at the top and you will see that democracy was perverted by the people who drew up the Scotland Act. They deliberately devised a voting system to guarantee that no independence supporting party could gain power in Scotland.

    But even if, by some fluke, one did, they also wrote into the bill that Westminster was the only Parliament which could hold an independence referendum.

    Any method of regaining independence outside of democracy is not watertight.

    Or as Stalin put it when told that the Pope disapproved of his methods, “How many divisions has the Pope?”

  264. schrodingers cat says:

    kelly replies to stu

    THURSDAY, JULY 16, 2020
    Dialogue with the Reverend
    As you may have seen, Stuart Campbell took a little time off from poker and Gaelic-bashing last night to leave a comment on this blog about his views on ‘gaming the voting system’, and went on to demand a point-by-point reply from me. There’s been a bit of a recurring pattern in the past that if I accede to his demand for a detailed reply, he then uses the fact that I replied as evidence that I am “dementedly obsessed” with him. I asked for an assurance that he would not play the same tedious game again, and he gave it. I have every confidence he will stick to his word this time (ahem). Here goes…

    “But you’re quite right, I have changed my mind. I don’t regard that as being anything to be ashamed of when circumstances change.”

    But circumstances haven’t changed. The arguments against ‘gaming the system’ in 2011 and 2016, including the arguments that Stuart advanced himself, were based largely on the nature of the voting system and the laws of arithmetic. Neither of those things have changed.

    “The difference is that unlike Mike [Small], I’ve clearly and repeatedly explained WHY I’ve taken a different position this time – tiny wee parties nobody’s ever heard of have no chance. But Wings has very high recognition with the Scottish public, especially among Yes voters – in the real world, not on social media”

    This appears to mean that the “changed circumstances” Stuart is referring to essentially amount to his exceptionally high opinion of himself – and, if so, a few unkind souls might say those circumstances haven’t changed much either. But he seems to be deadly serious about this point, so I’ll give a serious answer. As far as I can see, he’s convinced himself that he’s super-famous largely on the basis of Panelbase polling which asked the general public whether they’ve read or have heard of his website. As I’ve explained many times before, that’s the sort of question on which online polling is bound to produce a less reliable result than telephone polling, simply because volunteer online polling panels contain far more politically engaged people than you’d find among a random sample. Every single time there’s a Panelbase poll in the field, at least two or three readers of this blog mention that they were among the 1000-strong sample who took part. The chances of that happening during the fieldwork for a telephone poll would be much slimmer – in fact, in the whole twelve years I’ve been blogging, I could probably count on the fingers of one hand the number of times someone has mentioned being polled by telephone. Conclusion: people who respond to online polls are considerably more likely to have heard of Scot Goes Pop than the population at large, which almost certainly means they’re considerably more likely to have heard of Wings too. In a nutshell, Stuart has a distorted notion of his own fame due to polling numbers that he should have taken with a heavy dose of salt.

    “So either of us might actually have a shot, and I also regard it as something worth doing for other reasons, which I’ve also explained at length.”

    The “either of us” refers to himself and Alex Salmond. Many people will be utterly incredulous that he’s mentioning himself in the same breath as the former First Minister of Scotland, but that does seem to genuinely be the current state of his thinking. All I can say is that, to put it mildly, I disagree with him that his own name recognition is even vaguely comparable with Mr Salmond’s.

    “And even more so because I don’t share your apparent complacent certainty that current polling will continue until next May. I remember the SNP being on 62% about this far out from the last election, and then dropping about 15 points and losing their majority, and that was WITHOUT the trainwreck that the Salmond inquiry is going to be.”

    That’s a straw man argument on a couple of counts. Firstly, if he’s read what I’ve written on this subject (and presumably he’s implying that he has) he’ll know that, far from being complacent, I’ve repeatedly stressed that an inflated SNP lead is unlikely to come through a bruising election campaign totally unscathed. It’s also the case that I was one of the few people in 2016 itself who flagged up the danger that the SNP might lose their overall majority if they shed too many list votes. That warning was greeted with disbelief in many quarters.

    But the more important point is that the dangers of mucking about with attempts to game the system would be much greater if the SNP poll lead dips sharply. Stuart seems to be implying that we should be more willing to take risks with the pro-indy majority if the polls tighten, whereas self-evidently the reverse is true.

    “This isn’t a very remarkable opinion – you completely agree with it in principle, and you think it could work for Salmond”

    I’ve said that it might work for Alex Salmond due to the public’s massive familiarity with him, but that it would not work for any other person I can think of. To characterise that crystal-clear assessment as “you agree in principle that a Wings party would work apart from some minor detail” is so grossly misleading as to be indistinguishable from outright dishonesty.

    “you just think that because I swear sometimes and I’m ‘controversial’ nobody would vote for a Wings party. You’re perfectly entitled to that view, however obviously stupid and wrong it is – controversy and being disliked by a lot of people didn’t seem to stop Boris Johnson, Nigel Farage and Donald Trump winning. Nor Alex himself, come to that. And I do still find it hilarious that you think the Scottish public has great fainting fits over swearywords like you do, because you’re apparently from 1932.”

    This is something I’ve noticed with Stuart before – when he imagines Scotland, he imagines a pub full of male, working-class football supporters. A very substantial minority of the Scottish electorate does indeed look like that – but the operative word is “minority”. As it happens, though, I think Stuart is getting a bit muddled here. I believe he’s harking back to the iScot article from a few months ago that he had such a meltdown over. As far as I can recall, what I actually said in that article is that Stuart’s online persona would make it difficult for the SNP to work with him if he held the balance of power at Holyrood. I do not regard that scenario as remotely likely or even plausible, but the point I was making is that if it does happen, that could lead to the SNP doing a deal with a unionist party instead – which would be the worst of all worlds.

    Oh, and you’ll note that having previously mentioned himself in the same breath as Alex Salmond, he’s now doing it again with Boris Johnson, Nigel Farage and Donald Trump. No comment.

    “Still, be as mental as you like. But to pretend that I’m the same as Mike Small is a bit below the belt even for you.”

    Count your blessings, sunshine. I could have compared you to David Leask

  265. schrodingers cat says:


    hey deliberately devised a voting system to guarantee that no independence supporting party could gain power in Scotland.


    lol, but it was slab who devised the system, that went well

  266. Dave says:

    How long before this second Independence party gets ambitious enough to challenge for first vote seats? Can they be trusted to only ever go after second vote seats until Independence is gained? If they plan on looking long term then surely the idea of a second party is mute because they are already accepting defeat before they begin as their goal appears to be to gain a quick referendum on Independence.
    Has this been forensically thought through?
    Will they be motivated by Independence or gender politics? What would be their priority?
    If they are motivated by Independence they will chase Unionist seats if they are motivated by gender politics they will chase SNP seats.
    Im all for holding the Scottish Governments feet to the fire over Independence but I dont want Woke politics to interfere with the ONLY goal that matters overall because until we get Independence we cant deal with any other issue without interference from England.

  267. schrodingers cat says:

    Dave says:
    I dont want Woke politics to interfere with the ONLY goal that matters overall because until we get Independence

    the point about tactical voting is well made, as to which party the momentum swings behind, the jury is still out. 10 months to go before the election, other parties will emerge before then

  268. Dislogical says:

    Hmm, Kelly’s article changed slightly, the comparison at the end was originally to Kevin Williamson.

  269. Contrary says:

    Sarah’s comment earlier here:

    (Sorry about the link – but I think it is a good comment for people to read)

    Yes, the curious case of an independence supporting party not having any actual vision of what an independent Scotland would look like and no plan how to get there (the Growth Commission report doesn’t really do this)(you don’t ask an independent body to write down your vision for you, normally). I’ve been asking for a few years now – just casually in comments – where is the information people want and need on the SNP website? No one answers, or pays attention.

    Consider if you were a hovering No-voter thinking about finding out more, probably the first place you would go to would be the ‘official’ SNP website, where you might search ‘independence’, where you would find a gaping void, filled with vague references to ‘things would be better with independence’. That’s it – it hardly inspires confidence, or is ever likely to change minds.

    We all have our individual visions, with varying levels of practicality, and that’s fine – but we need realistic plans – and practical outline processes on what to do to make any of those visions possible. I know common weal is producing stuff, but have to admit nothing they produce is ever easy reading, and I can’t see it having public appeal, but at least they are doing something – and finding it difficult to engage the SNP. The SNP website doesn’t even reference Tim Rideout’s excellent outline plan for a new currency.

    The SNP HAVE been opening trade hubs in other countries – this is important for establishing future relationships and for gaining international recognition. But in the main, I see very little of substance produced by the SNP that show they are serious.

  270. schrodingers cat says:


    SNP defence spokesman Stewart McDonald said: “Chris Grayling is the only man who could lose a rigged election.”

  271. Roberto says:

    The Trollin SNP Pervs are up early this morning.

    SHITEY CAT and Crap Ella,,, those incontinence pants you two wear must be the real deal, because the two of you are never away from your keyboards.

    No leaks???

    But the thing incontinence pants will never change is the support you two give to Nicola Sturgeon, who will shortly make it legal for men to enter women’s safe places.

    Shame on you two.

    A right pair of perverted disgusting Individuals.

  272. Bob Mack says:


    That reply you posted from Scotgoespop is quite remarkable.

    Rather than clearing anything up, it demonstrates a man brimming with resentment and jealousy. You can feel it in the writing, as he tries to create a poison pen letter which is expressed as honest opinion.

    I suppose a part of trying to gain attention and significance is having to make sure nobody is above the level at which you function. This it becomes inevtitable you have to try and diminish them, even in a spirit of just “being honest”opinion

    I know who I trust more to tell me the truth as it appears, and it’s not Scotgoespop.

  273. schrodingers cat says:

    @bob mack

    kelly resorts to insults, mainly to confuse the issue, eg the electoral system, arithmetic is arithmetic, if it doesnt add up for any new indy list party, it doesnt add up for alex salmond. for someone who claims to be a psephologist, i would have thought that was blindingly obvious

  274. Breeks says:

    Sadly, I fear we are witnessing the permanent fragmentation of the pro Independence culture.

    The desire for Scottish Independence has never been greater, the path to get there never shorter, the risk to Scotland’s national integrity and Constitution has never been more visceral in over 300 years, the threat of damage to our economic welfare and interaction with Europe is upon us as we are about to be thrown into a sack, as the Tories ransack Scotland for loot to be handed over to greedy corporate America.

    But what really fucks Scotland over is the dribbling cowardice of Scottish politicians who line up for the accolade and silver of leading Scotland to deliverance when they have neither the constitutional acumen or grim, bloody minded determination to get the job done. They think all victory requires is just turning up.

    I pity you Scotland. Maybe we should conclude there is a Karmic Equilibrium in the Universe, and the price Scotland paid for it’s beautiful scenery, moderate climate, it’s earthly serenity, and the mystical infusion of steely grit and empathy in it’s people, is the reciprocal curse, that Scotland should be forever doomed to being ruled by the weakest and greediest parasites on the planet.

    ALL of this smouldering bourach of horse shit which might burst into flames before our eyes stems from impatience and resentment that since Alex Salmond was “taken down”, the whole Independence Movement, spanning from YES and YES peripherals to fanatical SNP loyalists, and every blogosphere in between, have all been starved and asphyxiated to the point of madness by a total vacuum of all effective Leadership, while one wide open opportunity after another to exit this cursed Union has cruelly come and gone.

    Any excuse to do nothing is worked into gospel for the captive congregation, and belched from the SNP’s pulpit. The next hymn, same as the last…

    It’s probably why the British Empire cultivated Scots as soldiers. Fearless and hardy, reliable and predictable, stoic and determined, and so terribly easy to exploit with even amateur levels of leadership, Scotland’s Achilles heel.

    In December, the rays of light from Europe will stop reaching Scotland, and bound in darkness, the critters of the night will be coming out in Scotland. All things Scottish will be homogenised to be British, and we Scots can probably expect endless vilification as the scrounging parasites who bleed England of it’s wealth and hold “the country” back. Scotland will be the same whipping boy it always has been, and our Nation will be a playground retreat for Oligarchs who will come to Scotland to wipe their feet on your daughters as they serve them a traditional “Scotch“ breakfast before the shoot.

    Look at her! They’ll chortle. She’s a sovereign citizen of Scotland. Ahahaha!

  275. Liz g says:

    Whit James Kelly forgets is outside those pubs full of football supporters there’s an army of Women,most of them actual activists for Independence,a lot of them ex SNP, ex because of this,and some current SNP prepared to enlighten their branches,who will campaign and agitate to get a party into Holyrood that does not and has not ever supported the Gender Woo Woo.

    What’s different about this Holyrood election is that no party has had to defend their stance on the GRA before (remember her fae the lib dems in the British election) and these women are engaged and organised now.

    And, as I’ve said before perfectly ready to weaponise all the evidence the Gender Believers have provided, so willingly to us, in defence of their rights.

    SIP are clear they will not support self ID and the Revs support for stopping this attack on Women and girl’s is not only beyond dispute,it’s been noticed by many others not of this parish.

    The SNP have been warned repeatedly for a few year’s now,that their stance would lose votes and therefore potentially risk an Indy parliament and they don’t seem to care.
    More to the point here James Kelly makes no allowance for this being a hot button issue in his reply.

    Most of the Yes movement either cannot or will not justify the SNPs support for the GRA on the door step and many feel that it is, and was, always obvious this will be used to attack their majority in the 2021 election.
    To protect an Indy majority in Holyrood those votes need a home.
    To imagine that the Gender debate is not going to feature in this election is blinkered,it’s an open goal the SNP have been warned about often enough.

    To stand up for our rights we’d hurt Indy by going up against the SNP and that’s a terrible choice the SNP insist we make.

    But to help Indy by getting the British Nationalists party’s out of our Parliament while protecting women and girl’s seems such an obvious answer,it’s surprising it’s at all controversial for some.
    Although that the Womens angle not being factored into conclusions drawn by “other’s” as important, is, I’m afraid,so tediously normal, ye have tae wonder if some have even realised yet, we did actually get The Vote?

  276. Bob Mack says:


    I cannot agree. The polls indicate a nation moving inexorably towards a view of Independence, regardless of which faction of the “yes”. Movement they favour.

    Where we find common ground is when the politicians who we rely on just now to make that choice happen, fail to find us the route to use the only weapon we have at our disposal. Our vote.

    We have been singularly let down at numerous critical punctures by ghost same static or devoid of fight politicians.

    Even yesterday they eat in the Commons receiving insult after insult and did nothing. No fight. Unwilling to ruffle the feathers of others whilst themselves looking like parrots who have been blow dried in a hurricane.

    The time will come when the people will ask them to move aside.

  277. Breeks says:

    Bob Mack says:
    16 July, 2020 at 8:08 am

    I cannot agree. The polls indicate a nation moving inexorably towards a view of Independence, regardless of which faction of the “yes”.

    I said the YES culture would permanently fragment. I didn’t say those fragments would abandon Independence. 😉

  278. Scott says:

    This is exactly why i left the SNP a while back, they dont represent me on many matters. imposing new blasphemy laws (in 2020 ffs) and the gender self id was too much for me to take. i want independence but not at the cost of freedom of speech and scientific facts been thrown away. thats completely unacceptable.

  279. Margaret E says:

    I absolutely agree with Breeks on this issue. As well as with Liz. We are led by those who deny scientific unassailable facts. By those who spout empty bombast in Westminster and collapse without a murmur. Even a balloon makes a noise when it is burst. But not our SNP leadership.
    I genuinely do not know how to vote, for the first time in my long life. Disillusioned is the least of it. I have lost lifelong friends because of my support for the current leadership and have been rewarded with….what?
    The faithful don’t appear to have read about anything about the future planned for SCotland. And yet it is all there, in black and white. Scotland the nation will disappear, just as other nations have vanished. Think Aragon.

  280. Roberto says:

    Is there any time line for the List Party to make a move?

    I would have thought some kind of coordinated move would have been made by now.

    And I would hope the leader or leaders start getting themselves onto our TV screens so voters start to become accustomed to the idea that there is another option available next year.

    Is Alex Salmond going to break cover?

    He said he would wait until the Covid19 crisis had died down before saying anymore.

    Well this virus could be with us for a very long time Alex,,,so I think you should re appear sooner rather than later.

    We are here ready to do the spade work, we are just screaming out for guidance and direction.

    Will somebody please step out of the shadows and get the INDY show back on the road.

  281. @Liz,

    i was sarcasticaly criticising the system not the comment,

    it took me long enough to understand the voting and have to check it out now and then to make sure that i still understand it,

    as i said sarcastically there is a seven page document to clarify the system , (`seven pages to clarify` being the sarcastic bit)

    outside the political bubble, 90% of the citizens of Scotland,it is still seen as a second preference vote,(my opinion from questioning friends and family).

  282. jfngw says:

    I see Kenny Farquharson is irate that the ‘Nationalists want to the government and the opposition’, obviously annoyed by the list party idea. Strangely I remember when British Nationalist where the government and opposition (still are at Westminster), he didn’t seem to be too concerned then.

    BritNat journalists believe they are unbiased but reveal themselves without even realising it.

  283. jfngw says:

    I see James Kelly has written another loooong blog about this site owner, second in a day, it really is developing into ‘blogbags at dawn’ event. Is it over or will we have a OK coral moment, I’m going out so if you hold on until I get back I would be grateful.

  284. Bob Mack says:


    I take your point. Sadly however we are left like a classroom full of rowdy students awaiting the arrival of the lecturer. Everybody talking to and fro until the figure in front begins to focus our attention on the subject in hand.

    We await our professor.That is what is currently lacking.

  285. Ross says:

    I wanted to put this comment on Scot goes pop but his comments appear to be censured. In reply to his latest blog.

    I agree with you James on the round but I do think some of your points here are weak.

    1) saying panelbase isn’t reliable because it’s population are political doesn’t stack up. That means it’s independence measurements are also unreliable. You can’t have it both ways.

    2). Whether Wings is famous enough in Scotland to win seats is a difficult question to answer but comparing him with Mike Small or David Leask chimes ridiculous. I believe he is known by a larger proportion of the population than those two.

    3) Saying he’s famous enough to win votes is not “comparing himself to Alex Salmond”. A silly remark. Being famous enough as not the same as stating you are the same amount of famous.

    I may not agree a wings party would succeed but I think you are protesting a bit too much on the points above.

    Ps I wish you could just state name rather than anonymous.


  286. Ian Brotherhood says:

    @Margaret E (8.43) –

    ‘Disillusioned is the least of it. I have lost lifelong friends because of my support for the current leadership and have been rewarded with….what?’

    You speak for many of us Margaret.

    No-one likes being made a fool of, and that’s exactly what it feels like – we were made all sorts of promises for precisely as long as our votes were required. Now that the party of government in Scotland has no opposition (previous thread) we’re expendable – ‘independence’ seems to have become nothing more than an afterthought.

  287. Capella says:

    Interview with Mike Russell on GMS. Describes the UK Govt statements on the power grab as lies. Independence in Europe essential. From 8.16

  288. Muscleguy says:

    That the Yoons have joined in is no surprise. They’ve done the same modelling the ISP did (or just looked at theirs) and they know the ISP will be coming to deny Unionists seats on the List.

    Imagine that, unionist no-hopers like Murdo Fraser or Annie Wells or James Kelly (MSP) actually being denied seats. This method has been staring us in the face and Colette Walker is getting beans for identifying it as though having lots of idiotic Yoons instead of switched on eager Yessers in the parliament is a good thing.

    The Yoons will still be there, just fewer of them. A bit like how Ian Murray is once again the sole SLAB MP (because the Tories in Edinburgh vote for him).

  289. Beaker says:

    @jfngw says:
    15 July, 2020 at 8:48 pm
    “Boris Johnson has agreed to an independent inquiry on the corona virus response. No doubt this means it will be led by Dominic Cummings and be released directly after the Russia Report.”

    It was written in January…

    Oh and happy birthday. Try to get home before 3am… 🙂

  290. Roberto says:

    Mike who???

    That’ll be the same SNP rep who, along with Blackford, was going to stop Scotland being dragged out of the EU against our will.

    You can fuck off with your SNP Links Crap-Ella.

  291. Mac says:

    FFS they tried to ratfuck Alex Salmond, twice! I dont know how any of you can vote for the SNP at this point. I can hardly believe even now what they did (and are still doing to Craig Murray and others). I will never vote for the SNP with this shower of utter ratbags in charge. This stuff is beyond the pale.

    I am also rapidly coming to the conclusion that unless this faction of woke extremists are cleaned out then the SNP is 100% not fit for purpose and are in fact a serious danger to us right now and especially to a newly independent Scotland. It is becoming clear from what they are doing that they are actually much more dangerous and pernicious than I ever thought. Again just look at the process by which they attempted to get AS thrown in jail. In fucking jail! God help us if they get that ‘Hate’ Bill passed.

    The way I see it independence is simply not happening under the current SNP leadership and nor is it desireable. So the longer we wait taking them on, the longer we wait until we ever have a real chance of it again.

    We can’t avoid this, they have to be defeated before we can achieve any real progress on independence. It is time to go to war.

  292. Republicofscotland says:

    Johnson tries the sneaky way to steal powers from Holyrood, and, the Lord Justice Chancellors fails to answer any details on the forthcoming new British Human Rights act that will replace the EU’s Human Rights act.

    However the Eu’s Human Rights act is incorporated into Scots law and Scottish governance, Scottish ministers, and the Scottish parliament must act compatibly with the ECHR.

  293. Republicofscotland says:

    Meanwhile as the British government stabs EU care home workers in the backs, by refusing them post-Brexit visas after they’ve risked their lives to care for the elderly and infirm during the worst of this pandemic.

    Up pops Jackson Carlaw, to rigourously defend his prime ministers decision, that refusing EU workers the visa is the right thing to do. Meanwhile Scottish Care CEO Donald Macaskill, who actually knows a thing or two about the care sector and its work force, has slammed Carlaw as delusional, and even Humza Yousaf has said Carlaw’s politics are devoid of reason.

    Is it any wonder that Carlaw often appears to have a ruddy complextion, a side effect of too many brass necks I’d imagine.

  294. defo says:

    Happy 66th jfngw.
    Hope she’s happy with her haircut. Excited even.

  295. stuwin says:

    For Hollyrood I will vote 1: SNP; vote 2: whatever pro-indy party will get more pro indy seats, whether its WoS,Gr, AIP, whatever…likely WoS if it happens as you have the ear of many. I am not abandoning the SNP lead in H/WM but lets be honest – they need a wee kick up the bum that another pro-indy party will provide.
    For WM it will be SNP.

  296. Capella says:

    @ Effijy – Julian Lewis speaks – and he’s pretty angry with Boris & Co

  297. stuwin says:

    …and using the list vote is a relatively safe way to get extra prod indy seats without cannibalising the SNP vote

  298. Juteman says:

    Is that your shift started?
    Must try harder!

  299. Cuilean says:

    I assumed Peter A Bell was referring to that greatest of nationalists (a British nationalist), George Galloway, when he described snake oil sellers and personal ambition.

    GG created a new party, after the 12th December 2019 General Election, called ‘The British Workers Party’. (The great loves of his life appear to be Stalin & Cuba).

    GG was for the EU in 2014. (See Youtube from 2014 GG thought anyone voting Leave was mad). He then jumped on the Leave bandwagon and is a born again Brexiteer.

    GG goes wherever the wind takes him. Its taking him to Scotland at the moment.

    He says that at Holyrood next year, all the British Nationalist parties should only stand one candidate in the List vote. Hah! That’ll go down well with all the nationalist (British) seat warmers in Edinburgh!

    Odd how none of the nationalist (British) politicians & commentators are condemning GG’s latest wheeze.

    I would never give my 2nd indy vote to the Greens, having listened to Patrick Harvie, say that he ‘was not that bothered about independence, one way or another,’ just before the 2014 Indyref, at a small public meeting on the Isle of Arran (Lamlash High School).

    I’ll certainly give my 2nd vote to an actual Indy Party.

    Someone has to hold the SNP’s feet to the fire.

  300. Capella says:

    @ Juteman – I find it quite heartening that the standard of trolling is so low and the level of anxiety so high. Gives me confidence we are winning the argument.

  301. Capella says:

    Jim Sillars wants Nicola Sturgeon to endorse the AfI. Full marks for chutzpah.

  302. Juteman says:

    I lurk more than I post these days, but that one was so obvious I had to laugh!
    Well done on staying the course despite some of the insults you get.

  303. Gary45% says:

    Another day, same garbage.
    Try a different approach you lot are too easy to spot.

  304. Capella says:

    Joanna Cherry in The National today on protecting Human Rights in Scotland:

    However, we are fast learning that the problem with devolution is that the powers and competences of the Scottish Parliament exist only at Westminster’s pleasure. The power grab prompted by the Tories’ desire to create an internal market seems likely to be followed by attempts to restrict the human rights protections enjoyed by people living in Scotland.

  305. ScotsRenewables says:

    Re. ‘gaming the system’

    If indy is considered to be the main election issue and if we really believe in proportional representation then we should be looking at a mix in the next Holyrood parliament of maybe 60/40 pro indy/pro Union.

    If the Pro indy contingent is higher, if Unionists are under-represented, then the system will have been gamed.

    If you are happy with having that thrown in your face then fine.

  306. Capella says:

    @ Juteman – nil desperandum or Don’t Let the Bastards Get You Down.

    It’s Stu’s blog. If that’s the standard of comment he is happy with then who am I to disagree. I don’t HAVE to come here, of course.

  307. Daisy Walker says:

    Holyrood elections offer a unique opportunity and the British Establishment are extremely frightened of it.

    It allows voters to cast a second ‘protest’ vote without denting their loyalty to their main party. And that protest vote gets seats.

    The argument that it splits the indy vote, is incorrect in my opinion – what it does is allow different flavours of Indy. Unionists have that, why can’t we. Likewise if one looks to the history of Indy movements throughout the world – nearly always they ended up with several parties pushing for it.

    For those in the SNP not currently content with senior management strategy and keen to change things from within – an additional Indy alliance group – will provide strenghth to your elbow.

    For those who say we will have a Life of Brian type scenario with The Peoples front of Yes, and the Yes front of People…. I share your concerns, but would suggests, that if there is a strong local candidate, with great canvasing team, much can be overcome.

    This would also allow for flexibility in different areas – for example Tory Perthshire requires a different flavour than Govan.

    What I would suggest is that they form a loose alliance so that certain policies are agreed upon. Shoulders to the same wheel, pushing in the same direction.

    Their emphasis should definitely not be on slagging off the SNP, but on moving the case for Indy forward, always, and at every turn. And this in turn, should make it unjustifiable for the SNP to not be doing similar.

    It would be a very bad look for the SNP to slag them off in turn.

    But for us in YES, Led by Donkeys is doing more to highlight the state of the (UK) Nation than we are.

    Lets get our own show on the road folks.

    We lose our NHS with Brexit
    We lose our Farms and Food Quality with Brexit
    We lose our Parliament with Brexit.

    Time to lose Westminster. Scotland’s Better Together with EU.

  308. Alec Lomax says:

    British Human Rights Act (ie Conservative and Unionist Party Rights Act) is being delayed: they haven’t found a fag packet to write it on the back of.

  309. One_Scot says:

    Lol, if the foaming mouth Yonns are howling at the moon, then you know you’re on to a winner.

  310. Fireproofjim says:

    By your comments you appear to be a dirty minded little boy.. Delighting in calling anyone you disagree with “pervert”.
    Try to grow up . Put your points in a civilised manner. Your vile posts convince no one.

  311. Bob W says:

    re: “gaming” the system

    I am truly puzzled by anyone who thinks that allowing voters another choice, is “gaming” the electoral system. If you want to cry “gaming”, look at the over representation of the Conservatives in the current UK parliament, that is due to the FPTP electoral system, which the establishment seem to be very happy with.

  312. liz says:

    I think a lot of the still loyal to Sturgeon brigade are experiencing the 7 stages of grief.

    I remember being really puzzled at my SLAB supporting friends who could not see what a waste of space they were.

    Many moved on, some still cling to the wreckage.
    It’s not easy when you trust someone and something so much, to suddenly realise you’ve been had.

    The positive thing is though, with SM, we’ve seeing through the fakes in the SNP much quicker than anyone did with SLAB.
    We still have hope, we still have Joanna Cherry and Alex S.

    The ISP have put the cat amongst the pigeons and I hope they are strong enough to withstand the onslaught that will come their way.

  313. Capella says:

    5 stages. Grief has 5 stages according Kubler-Ross. Denial, anger, depression, bargaining, acceptance.

  314. katherine hamilton says:

    Hi Capella
    Thanks for your link to the National at 10.50. And so the list plan starts to unravel already. Looks like potentially 2 more indy options after the Greens, article says perhaps more. Here come the hobby horsists, the opportunists. Maybe we’ll have 10 options in each area to choose from!

    This will only work if there is one, yes 1, well organised and easily identifiable option on the list with brand identification. Under that folk can apply to be part of it. I am dismayed.

    Maybe Alex Salmond will come to save us. Eh? That’s it? Well maybe he will, maybe he won’t.

    When the Rev set this hare running, what, 18 months ago, my heart lifted at the beautiful simplicity of it. I actually thought it would be under the Wings banner. Mr. Campbell is only toxic if you choose to believe that. I profoundly disagree with his attacks on the SNP at this point in time, but hey it’s his blog.
    However a Wings+Women’s Rights option is the one for me. The ISP don’t have the time or resources to develop the brand recognition on their own. Forget the others. Trots will Trot.

  315. Bruce Hosie says:

    We would not be having this debate about list parties if the SNP were being perceived as doing their job in relation to the goal of Scottish Independence but sadly that does not appear to be case right now.

    Now I follow various blogs including the increasingly bitter blog that is Scot Goes Pop and the ever increasing banging on about gaming the system. I won’t pretend to understand all of the mathematics of our voting system but if anyone can be accused of gaming the electoral system it would be the unionist parties who designed a system specifically to undermine the wishes of a growing Scottish electorate around the issue of independence.

    I actually resent the implication that by deciding that I want my list vote for an independence supporting Holyrood that i am in some way trying to game any system. I have never actually voted SNP 1 and 2 because I realised very quickly that my list vote is a wasted vote so I have went Green previously. Should ISP or any other alternative party stand I will consider their policies, the candidate and how serious they are before voting as I always do and I do not take the view that the most politically literate part of the UK has many others who wouldn’t do the same and they also are not gaming any system.

    The simple reality is we would not be having this discussion if the SNP were being seen to be pursuing indepdence in the way that many of us would hope to see. We were told we not be taken out of the EU against our will, we are. We were told that the power grab by Westminster would not be allowed to happen, it is. We have seen a policy by the First Minster of not being willing to consider any other avenues to indepdence other than a section 30 order, the First Minister is not stupid and knew exactly what that policy would mean, never ending nos until it suits the Westminster Government and no way for the SNP to act to change that. That is not my fault that is a calculated policy that gives the impression that the SNP want indepdence but not now, they are waiting for a mythical 60% plus in the polls and the perfect Scottish economy, neither will ever happen so where does that leave us.

    It leaves us with no alternative but to look at ways that we can hold the SNP to their word and to forward the cause of Scottish independence. That now has to include considering electing MSPs from other yes supporting parties who will hold the SNP to account on our behalf and ensure that our opinions and our desires are heard because right now it looks like the SNP are not listening.

    We are also seeing that those of us who question the 1 and 2 vote are the problem, that Stuart Campbell is the problem, that how dare we have an opinion that doesn’t fit in with the narrative that so called opinion leaders of the yes blogging community have. I am very clear on the why I am considering my vote, they are the ones sowing the division and are coming across as having egos that are more important than the debate.

    Make up your own mind, I am, if you want to split your vote do it because you believe it is the right thing to do. You are not gaming the system and if yes supporting MSPs fall as a result of our votes then that is the fault of the SNP who are not fighting as hard or as transparently as we would like or expect.

  316. Roberto says:


    You are just another SNP Troll

    And the perverts are those who support the Sturgeon plan to all men access to women only safe places.

    So do you support Sturgeon or not dickheed

  317. Johnny says:

    Bob W @ 11:44am:

    Yes, whatever is true about the chances of a list party being a success, this whole ‘you’re cheating!’ thing is a lot of nonsense.

    Let’s be clear here, it’s not even that the new party is pro-indy that’s worrying some.

    As we know, plenty of daft wee parties have sprouted up at various elections in favour of the union without fanfare. The reason for that is not only that they are unionist and therefore do not want the boat rocked, although that plays a part. But the main reason is they get nowhere, and everyone knows they will get nowhere.

    And so with the pro-indy list parties. There’s some consternation because they are pro-indy but no effective ‘gaming the system’ or ‘cheating’ can take place if they are hopeless. The worry amongst those screeching about is that one will emerge that won’t be hopeless and will rock the boat.

    That’s the reason for all the furore.

    The list party or parties *might* fall on its arse. But it might not as well and it’s only in this latter eventuality that they will threaten existing interests (and these people, often sharp at very little else, are mega-attuned to threats to their seats).

    Hence all the consternation. There’d be none if everyone thought that it was nailed on for sure that any list party that has, or could emerge, would get 0.5% of the vote.

  318. liz says:

    Others quote 7
    Shock and denial. This is a state of disbelief and numbed feelings.
    Pain and guilt. …
    Anger and bargaining. …
    Depression. …
    The upward turn. …
    Reconstruction and working through. …
    Acceptance and hope

  319. liz says:

    I love how so many people are so very quick to diss the list party(ies)

    What are you scared of?
    So much negativity, SNP staffers, perchance?

  320. Polly says:

    I agree entirely with Daisy Walkers claim ‘But for us in YES, Led by Donkeys is doing more to highlight the state of the (UK) Nation than we are.’

    I remember when the Misreporting Scotland advert was proposed to be used as a criticism of BBC Scotland and the howls from a good many of the ‘prim and proper’ sort of the independence movement shook their heads and looked down their noses and vetoed it as at all the right thing to do.

    But I also remember when the Led By Donkeys adverts against brexit first showed how effective that type of public protest could be that some of those same folk were saying how good the Donkeys were – almost like the cringe in action – England had to lead the way to show what was permissible to Scots. Yet many of those same folk are the supposed arbiters of the movement, the Byers road type crowd who think a poster using Van Gogh’s name to rhyme with go is a old time Scottish thing.

    I would support a poster and advertising campaign attacking he government, brexit, BBC etc

  321. carjamtic says:

    1. Change of Attitude,stop pissing everyone off, attacking other Indy supporters, while simultaneously bending over to MSM.

    2. Stop allowing SW1 to show continuous contempt for Scotland, giving them the permission to bad mouth us, our legendary long fuses are done with them, permanently withdraw all SNP MP’s ASAP (come home folks, you deserve a better stage to showcase case your talents, not a miserable existence).

    3. Welcome other Indy parties to Holyrood, is it a better Parliament than SW1 ? absolutely it is, (think, small is beautiful) is it perfect ? no, a further infusion of Indy MSP’s can only help, let’s go for it.

    And finally, Indy bloggers unroll yourselves, you’re just people like us, nae hurcheon’s.


  322. Capella says:

    @ katherine hamilton – It’s inevitable that a number of parties will contest the list. So some co-ordination will be necessary. On the surface the AfI would be a good idea but it looks like most groups are not willing to be herded – at this point anyway.

    Alex Salmond participating would be a game changer. But who knows what he will decide to do? I do believe Alex will do whatever he judges best to promote independence. We will have to wait till after the Holyrood inquiry.

    Will Stu get involved? I’m assuming that at least some of these articles are PPBs.

  323. desimond says:

    First The Vow…now The Fear

    Imagine your SNP and your fearing folk will listen to alternative Independent voices ( Greens dont really ‘voice’ it)…that could damage your coffers but most of all your standing and presence


    Imagine youre a Unionist Party in Scotland…youre dependent on that List set up to get your Murdos, your Miles’, your Kellys their cushty jobs and Media profiles.


    Imagine Labour became the 4th or 5th party in would the Scottish Media cope?

    Then Imagine…a party that actually prioritised and looked and discussed every issue from the perspective of Independence…and every issue is impacted or impacts it so how welcome would it be!

    I for one cant read another SNP MP telling me how their gonna go right down to that Westminster and tell Boris how annoyed they are…who gives a flying monkeys for empty bombast…least a new Indy Party would be some sign of action occurring in our Scottish Political world!

  324. Polly says:

    @Bruce Hosie

    Very well said. I always voted SNP on the list since I wanted the total vote share for the party to be higher and because I felt after SNP became dominant that unionists deserved as many chance as possible too. Quite frankly I no longer feel that, not with brexit barrelling towards us and despite Scottish tories not wanting brexit before the vote, they now do nothing but support the most extreme form of no deal and the utterly useless Cummings led party. The SNP need a kick to restart them too. Thank you for posting.

  325. Liz g says:

    Scot Finlayson @ 8.47
    Sorry Scot only just checked back in and saw your post.

    No worries,Scot
    I’m glad you cleared that up 🙂
    I totally missed the tone in your post…
    Its no easy to get tone across sometimes, Ive been caught like that before too, and been typing away with a grin on my face and someone reading it back takes it completely the other way..
    Anyhoo not tae worry bad 🙂

  326. CameronB Brodie says:

    Brexit has broken the terms of union beyond tolerance or repair, so all we need is leadership that understands and respects human rights. Unfortunately, the FM appears to think herself competent to determine whether Scots have a right to have human rights, or not.

    If the FM is committed to indy, she simply needs to step out from under Westminster authority, which lacks moral substance and is not compatible with liberal constitutionalism. Which does she value most highly though, British nationalist conventions and tradition, or the rule-of-law and a sustainable Scotland?

  327. Liz g says:

    Gaming the system, cheating, unfair…
    Is it now ?
    Here wiz me thinking we were just Voting!

    And the best bit…

    I Really, Realy, Really Don’t Care not one wee totay bit.

    It’s MY vote and I’ll NOT be told there’s a right or wrong way tae use it.

    So they can attempt to “Vote Shame” all the live long fucking day and waste their time,but they sure as shit won’t waste mine.

  328. Big Jock says:

    Mhairi Hunter wanting to protect unionists by gifting them list seats, sums up everything that is wrong with the current SNP. She wants to do the enemy a favour!

    I want there to be no unionists in Scotland. Because that’s what independence is. The end of the union and the end of unionists with it. Which part of that does she not understand.

    A unionists job is to hold Scotland back. That’s what those seat warmers purpose is. She is advocating the vandalism of Scotland.

    Everything a unionist represents is to me the past. It’s a Scotland forever identified as British and controlled by England.

    If there was a way of getting rid of every unionist MSP , then I would welcome it. Even if the unionists represented 20% of the Scottish voters!

  329. CameronB Brodie says:

    Seeing as how there appears to be something of a knowledge vacuum at the top of the SNP, it might be time folk started learning how to defend their biological integrity from authoritarian English nationalism.

    Full text.

    International Journal of Constitutional Law, Volume 18, Issue 1, January 2020, Pages 206–232,
    Constitution-making and liberal democracy: The role of citizens and representative elites–dmhS-o

  330. CameronB Brodie says:

    And here’s one for those who appear to value the control of power more than Scotland’s future.

    Direct and Participatory Democracy at Grassroots Level:
    Levers for forging EU citizenship and identity?

  331. schrodingers cat says:

    Capella says:
    Will Stu get involved? I’m assuming that at least some of these articles are PPBs.

    i think recently stu said he really doesnt want to be an msp. but even if alex doesnt want to be an msp either, it is the celebrity support from such people which will swing the voters

  332. CameronB Brodie says:

    I may be driven and pretty single-minded, but I hope folk don’t think I lack a sense of humour. 😉

    Fraser Institute Digital Publication, February 2003
    Accountability to Citizens in the
    Westminster Model of Government:
    More Myth Than Reality

  333. Republicofscotland says:

    “Capella says:
    16 July, 2020 at 10:50 am
    Jim Sillars wants Nicola Sturgeon to endorse the AfI. Full marks for chutzpah.”


    That might not be a bad idea, getting all the new smaller independence minded parties under the one umbrella. People might be more likely to vote for one larger better known group than say a few smaller groups, cooperation between the groups I’d say is the biggest obstacle though.

  334. Tony Hay says:

    A second indy party(alliance) with say 15-20 seats will surely hold the SNP feet to the fire over the big question. The SNP will have to literally shit or get off the pan.

    I take no pleasure, as an ex SNP member,of actually questioning their belief in indy. Power and its trappings has turned their collective heads and an organised committed indy list party may be the last chance for years to force the issue with the power grab from London all but upon us.

  335. Tinto Chiel says:

    @Bruce Hosie 12.09: some excellent and well-argued points made there.

    @Liz 12.21: I think I’ve experienced at least three more stages

    I’ve been thinking about your remark the other day about something seeming to have changed with the mysterious Crowne Plaza meeting between the FM and Theresa Mayhem a few years ago. Before this, such affairs were filmed in that nice room in Bute House with the classy fireplace and conspicuous twin saltires, as if we were already living in the early days of an independent Scotland.

    Quite why their tete a tete was held in such an anonymous and mundane hotel was always strange to me, almost as if NS was thought to have been too big for her boots and had been slapped down severely behind the scenes.

  336. Willie says:

    Just read James Kelly’s pop at Stuart Campbell and it’s clear that he doesn’t like you Rev, which is truly a shame since you are both on the same side.

    But one thing he did say in amongst his rant was that if you, through a Wings Party held the balance of power the SNP would not work with you, and that instead they would form an alliance with the Unionists.

    Now that is one very interesting perception of what the SNP have become.

    High time a new Party was created and let the rump time servers sink as the sand shifts from below them to a real Independence Party.

  337. Polly says:

    Tinto Chiel says: ‘…almost as if NS was thought to have been too big for her boots and had been slapped down severely behind the scenes.’

    I thought at the time that it was more she didn’t want to be embarrassed again sitting under the double saltire fireplace, which she had been the time before. You’ll have noticed that when Boris showed up for photos there were no flags of any kind on show and I reckon it was because he refused the double saltire and Nicola said no UJ so only compromise was no flags. I know he left by the back door right enough, so he didn’t get it all his own way.

  338. Mialuci says:

    Sorry I don’t believe anyone that says they have allways been an SNP supporter and now they are not
    You are for independence or your not, I have been voting for the SNP for over 50 years, and that will never change, who I would vote for after independence is a different matter
    I would maybe vote for the monster raving looney party if there is one standing, there are a lot of loonie parties about these days, so perhaps I might get myself officially recognised as a member of
    of one of them, but as long as i’m a scottish looney I don’t mind one bit, lol

  339. katherine hamilton says:

    A plethora of pro-indy groups vying for list votes with SNP and Greens will result in dilution of the vote and failure.
    “Co-ordination will be needed”. Indeed, but I repeat- Who? Not the YES movement with hubs etc and a diffuse leadership structure.The diversity and localism is viewed as its strength. Not the SNP, obviously. I contend not ISP. Too late. Have they started crowdfunding yet, for example? They’ll need plenty dosh. We are talking about a political campaign here.

    If say where I live there are SNP, Green, ISP and perhaps even only 2 other as yet unannounced options, which do I pick that will achieve the desired result? ISP have already said they won’t deal with anybody else. Oh goody. The left options will squabble amongst themselves, as usual.

    No, hoping “surely sumday will do sumfin” won’t cut it. As for the do your homework and learn about the local candidates stuff that will follow this, wise up. I’m a geek, we’re all geeks on here re independence. Most folk aren’t. Won’t go to meetings/hustings. Message has to be clear and simple.

    Less than one year to go and counting. What say you Rev. Lead, organise the platform, pull in some big names, swear at and insult some people. You don’t have to be an MSP, but you do need to use your profile to move this. Frankly no-one else outside the mainstream can.
    Sorry to put you on the spot,buddy, but I can’t see anybody else out there.

  340. Dogbiscuit says:

    The unholy alliance between SNP and Scottish media proves Sturgeons Unionist credentials.

  341. Dogbiscuit says:

    Peter A Bell I’ll sell you a candy floss covered Unicorn if you can furnish us with the details of Sturgeons plan for Independence.

  342. Tinto Chiel says:

    @Polly: I don’t watch TV any more but I don’t remember seeing her giving any briefings since then at Bute House in front of our double flag on any snippets on YouTube or the like.

    Used to love seeing the saltires and thinking we were on our way…..

  343. a says:

    When all of their ideas focus on who to blame instead of how to overcome, people are selling you self-sabotage disguised as empowerment.

  344. Big Jock says:

    Peter Bell has spent 3 years complaining about the inertia of the state we are in. He blames tge SNP leadership.

    Then when people come up with a plan to put pressure on them by getting list Msps. He scoffs and laughs at the foolishness of this. His latest post is about staying loyal to the SNP. He wants us all to persuade them to change. But he dismisses the very thing that could force a change!

    In other words he is just as guilty of inertia as the SNP. He advocates sitting on our arses trying to get Nicola to change her stance.

    One reason I know the list vote idea is clever. Is the reaction of the SNP. They are raging, because they want to be the only show in town. They want opposition seat warmers,rather than fellow indi Msps.

    A message to Peter. Tell us all how you will change the SNP. Maybe sticking your hand up at conference?

  345. WhoRattledYourCage says:

    Mhairi Hunter. Jesus. Wheel out the big intellectual guns! If I need telling the price of something off a market barrow stall, I will ask for her input.

  346. Polly says:

    @Tinto Chiel

    ‘I don’t watch TV any more but I don’t remember seeing her giving any briefings since then at Bute House in front of our double flag…’

    I think you could be right since I can’t say I remember m/any after that myself. My comment was only alluding to the possible reason May met Sturgeon at the hotel. I’m sure May’s advisers would have been a tad unhappy with the optics of this

    for as you say seemed more like one premier welcoming another. I’d thought hotel meeting was only the way she chose to avoid it a second time. And ‘backdoor Boris’ avoided it another way.

    So seemed Sturgeon keeping him hang about the steps outside first rather than have him usher her in to her own house was the start of the battle inside about flags. He’d want to show he was a tough leader, unlike May, but it seemed Sturgeon drew on the flag fight then won when he had to leave by the back door. The optics of that were far more ignominious than sitting under the double saltire.

    Strange that episode was only a year ago. Sturgeon to me still seemed mettlesome then. Of course Liz could have been right about other reasons for that hotel meeting. Things have certainly changed.

  347. Tinto Chiel says:

    @Polly: amen to all that. Why would the FM bow to pressure to remove our flags? Some kind of threat/arm-twisting?

    Things have changed for certain but I suspect some things, like saltiregate, may become clearer in the coming months.

  348. cyril mitchell says:

    Course we know who the cheats are–those who set up voting system to stop indy parties having power and many now shitting themselves at thought of unionist (basically illegal as not reg in Scotland) losing seats at Holyrood. They would never be brave enough to allow a FPTP system.It sfwould be a rout

  349. Big Jock says:

    I think the removal of the Saltires is significant. It’s a symbol that the FM lacks confidence. There were probably a lot of unionist comments in the media about them.

    The FM is obsessed with media PR. Hence her obsession with trying to court the respect of the English populace.

  350. Tinto Chiel says:

    @BJ: I think the most worrying aspect of courting “the respect of the English populace” as you call it for me was NS using the term “wildcat independence referendum” in her non-call to arms on 31st January, a phrase worthy of any Britnat commentator.

  351. Polly says:

    @Tinto Chiel,

    Bow to pressure to remove the flags from the fireplace when the Boris photo op took place you mean? Well the skirmish on the front steps before he entered didn’t bode well for there to be harmony behind closed doors. Perhaps the stand off inside could only be ended if they agreed neither flag would be there so a photo could be taken of the event. If you mean remove them more often in general after the May hotel visit I’m not sure. But last December, after the election, they were there again.

    I know archive links to news sites is recommended, but videos don’t seem to play, though you will see if you go to the actual news site or from the photo in archive that both saltires were there then. As you say though, or as the proverb does, naything comes fairer to licht than what heas been lang hidden, and no doubt there’s a lot we have to learn.

  352. Tinto Chiel says:

    @Polly: thanks for that info. Now you see ’em, now you don’t 😉 .

  353. Terry callachan says:

    So let me get this right

    A well known journalist from a unionist newspaper
    Says SNP MP,s are cheating Scotland
    So do not vote for SNP

    Then wingsoverscotland says
    Oh yes it must be true

    And then SNP voters on wos say
    I won’t be voting SNP again

    Really ?
    Are you mad ?

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