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The voices of the people

Posted on October 11, 2013 by

Those clued-up, cutting-edge sorts among you who follow our Twitter account will have seen this last night, but it definitely needs to reach a bigger audience.

It’s a recording of a meeting held by Clydebank TUC earlier this month on the subject of whether the working class should support independence. The working class is the sector of the Scottish public whose voice is least heard in the debate (which is largely dominated by middle-class media-intellectual sorts), and perhaps not coincidentally is the demographic which tends to favour independence most strongly.

The footage is raw and often angry, and readers sensitive to adult language might wish to steer clear. Anas Sarwar probably wishes he’d done the same.

The deputy leader of Labour in Scotland is clearly shocked at his reception throughout the 250-strong meeting, in one of Labour’s most traditional heartlands. He probably shouldn’t be, as it’s less than a year since his colleague Jackie Baillie got a pretty hostile response in the same town, but she had an easy ride by comparison.

As noted in student newspaper The Journal, Sarwar was heckled and booed for much of his speech, a pre-prepared SNP-bashing piece from which the Labour MP seemed unwilling or unable to diverge.

(The sound quality of the film isn’t the best, and much of the time the cacophony from the crowd renders his words inaudible, but the full text can be found on the Labour website. The word “SNP” appears nine times, the words “socialism” or “socialist” not at all. Although interestingly he says “independence” throughout rather than “separation”.)

The crowd’s fury, apart from one woman with what appeared to be an English accent shouting aggressively at SNP MSP Linda Fabiani, was almost all directed at Sarwar. As a man more used to the kid-gloves treatment from compliant BBC and STV interviewers, he was clearly badly thrown, and afterwards resorted to playing the “anti-English” card in response to a single idiot calling the English woman a “bitch” and telling her to “go home”, though it wasn’t clear that the man meant “to England”.

(Fabiani, to her credit, had slapped the man down immediately.)

The tone was somewhat different to another meeting that had been held two days previously – the launch of “Better Together Cowal” in Dunoon. According to a Wings reader who attended the event, approximately 60 souls (BT carefully avoided making any claims about numbers, or showing any photographs of the audience) turned up to hear speakers from all three Unionist parties and a couple of members of the public.

Our spy recorded the event, but the audio is even worse than that of the Clydebank TUC meeting, and it’s only intermittently possible to make out what people are saying. One moment towards the end of the hour-long event does stand out, though, and we’ll leave it to the person who was there to describe it.

“The loudest cheer and longest applause of the evening was in response to the Better Together youth representative’s declaration that the Romans couldn’t be bothered to occupy Scotland because having marched its length and breath they found ‘it was useless’. Callow youth he may be; but this childish assertion brought the house down and, tellingly, remained unchallenged by any other member of the panel.”

You can hear it from 49m 50s on the recording, and you can read the rest of our reporter’s account here. It paints an interesting picture of two very different crowds – one unrestrained in its fury at what Scotland is being told to settle for, and another revelling in tales of their own nation’s feeble ineptitude, while delivering the message that only English voters can decide what’s best for Scotland and that we should be grateful to have billions of pounds of Scottish taxpayers’ money spent on HS2, a railway line that won’t come within 200 miles of Scotland.

We know which of those groups we’d rather entrust with Scotland’s future.

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    151 to “The voices of the people”

    1. Calgacus says:

      Well done Clydebank, all Scotland is proud of you for standing up to that drone Sarwar. 

    2. Richard Lucas says:

      I’d really like to watch your video clips, but living as I do in rural Fife, my ‘broad’ band is so feeble that I cannot.  Can we have a campaign for decent broadband across Scotland, please?

    3. big_steph says:

      Wow, I stay in Dunoon and had no idea BT were doing a ‘launch’!  Did get a couple of leaflets (full of pish) through the door from them yesterday.  Wonder who that brain-washed youth might be?

    4. Seasick Dave says:

      And yet they live in this useless place and revel in demeaning it to the extent that they campaign for it to be ruled by an uncaring Westminster government.
       
      I think, to be honest, if these people were around in the Roman times, the Romans would have backed away slowly thinking, “FFS, they’re all bonkers around here”.

    5. Bubbles says:

      @ Richard
       
      Absolutely! Exact same problem here in Angus. They say they’re aiming for a saturation of 95% broadband. I can only assume they’re referring to population and not area. That’s not good enough. My phone is on the One Plan from 3 and that’s fast enough for me but unfortunately I don’t get a signal at my house.
       
      Anyway, good article Stu and I know who I stand with too. I wonder if these unionists ever actually leave this island and if they do if they ever notice how the world seems to work pretty well without being in a union with England. Sickening people who would, in many parts of the world, be met with derision at best and a firing squad at the worst.

    6. Tattie-boggle says:

      Squeaky bums at Better Together, after watching that. It must have been those nasty Cybernats that infiltrated the TUC

    7. Robert Louis says:

      Sarwar:  ‘I’m proud to be Scottish, I’m going nowhere’.
       
      Man in the audience: ‘Aye yer dad said that too’.
       
      Brilliant.
       
      When a major player in the Labour party is openly laughed at in Clydebank, you know it is the end of Labour in Scotland.  This ‘anti-SNP’ bilge just doesn’t wash with the people of Scotland.  It didn’t wash in 2007, nor did it in 2011.
       
      Fact is, it is the SNP who now represent the working man in Scotland.
       
      Labour are in for a hiding next year, and will NEVER be forgiven for treating the people of Scotland as fools, in their desperate ‘better together’ Tory alliance to stifle self rule for Scotland.
       
      Onwards and upwards, we will win.  Labour has backed the wrong horse and will be rightly punished for their contempt of Scottish history, culture and people.
       
      Vote YES in 2014, and put the utterly contemptible Anas Sarwars of this world out of their cushy London jobs at Westminster.

    8. Stuart Black says:

      “The loudest cheer and longest applause of the evening was in response to the Better Together youth representative’s declaration that the Romans couldn’t be bothered to occupy Scotland because having marched its length and breath they found ‘it was useless’. Callow youth he may be; but this childish assertion brought the house down and, tellingly, remained unchallenged by any other member of the panel.”
       
      Serious question, why do these people even live here if they think this way? I’m lost for words, really…

    9. liz says:

      Even with all that anger directed at Sarwar and the non-event that was BT, Labour still managed to get elected in govan.
       
      I’m not sure what to make of it.

    10. alexicon says:

      The son of a multi millionaire certainly got a new one ripped there.
      Now wouldn’t it be good, with a touch of intelligence, if the YES campaign were to hold a meeting in the same hall and roll out the ‘common weal’ (intelligent part) to the brothers.

    11. BuckieBraes says:

      @Stuart Black
      Serious question, why do these people even live here if they think this way?
       
      Indeed – if this level of self-loathing is what being ‘A Proud Scot’ (as they’re always telling us) means to these people, it’s utterly bizarre.

    12. Richard Lucas says:

      I’m sorry I went O/T so soon in this thread, but I was fizzing!
      It’s telling that the likes of Sarwar are being openly derided.  The daft ,laddie’s remarks about the Romans and Scotland, and the response from the audience leave me wondering if ‘self-loathing’ is an adequate term to describe the behaviour.

    13. Albalha says:

      @liz
      What can you really make of a 20% turnout, low even by council election standards. Interesting the No Bedroom Tax candidate came 3rd and the SNP share was down by only 1.5%, according to the Herald.
       
      Maybe Labour got their hard core vote out and the SNP didn’t, how can you know with such a paltry turn out.

    14. HulloHulot says:

      Serious question, why do these people even live here if they think this way? I’m lost for words, really…

      Because they’re proud, patriotic Scots!

    15. Rev. Stuart Campbell says:

      “Even with all that anger directed at Sarwar and the non-event that was BT, Labour still managed to get elected in govan.
      I’m not sure what to make of it.”

      It’s pretty simple. The SNP came 2nd in 2012, and they came 2nd last night.

      http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Govan_%28ward%29

      The newspaper reporting of the result this morning has been nonsensical. You just can’t compare a multi-member STV election with a single-member by-election. Most of them are also now reporting that Labour have four members out of four in Govan, when one is a person who resigned from the party just before the 2012 election and stood as “Glasgow First” – a status which as far as I’m aware he’s never renounced. I certainly can’t find any reports anywhere of him rejoining Labour.

    16. HenBroon says:

      The Clydebank TUC certainly do not like London Labour as Bailey discovered. Sarwar is simply dreadful and yet the Govan by election votes for  a Labour cooncilor on a 20% TURNOUT. It must cause concern for the SNP. WTF happened in Govan. The SNP cannot get their vote out, it does not bode well for the referendum. We should be slaughtering Labour. WTF is going to happen in Dunfermline? Are the polls right are Yes losing? Or was their something dodgy going on in Govan. Does anyone know, it has all gone horribly quiet?
        Any polls coming up Rev?

    17. heraldnomore says:

      aye the broadband on the South Lanarkshire/East Ayrshire borderland is grim too – no chance of You Tube footages being played in these parts.
       
      So Stu, you know we all appreciate your transcription efforts……
       
      Oh, here’s the Clydebank opening beginning to play at last, buffering soon no doubt.  25 seconds in one go, a new record.

    18. MajorBloodnok says:

      @liz
       
      (Psssst.  Postal votes…)

    19. velofello says:

      O/T @ Bubbles: request a Homesignal booster from 3. If practicable, call them from outside your  and then enter, as you lose the signal that may convince them to supply a unit. Otherwise request a home visit,

    20. Albalha says:

      @RevStu
      Yes I read those figure as well but clearly Labour increased the number of people who turned up and voted for them, and the SNP number went down, as compared to the 1st, 2nd votes in 2012.

    21. Iain says:

      New TNS-BMRB poll.

      http://tinyurl.com/oad8xxy

      Top line YES 25%, NO 44%, Don’t know 31%.
      Certain to vote YES 28%, NO 50%, Don’t know 22%.
       
      Kind of on a par with recent stuff, Don’t Knows still remaining very much in the dark!

    22. Dave McEwan Hill says:

      Do not be deceived by the Govan result. We came in third in a three member ward to get a elected member . It was always almost certain that Labour would win a straight fight. The 20% turnout probably represent what the voters think about the importance of the local council or maybe just fatigue at an election with 12 candidates 

    23. scottish_skier says:

      I’d ignore the Yes in the TNS poll if they’ve used the same approach as last time.
       
      I can’t tell as the link to the tables on their website is broken.
       
      No down 3% is good and in line with a falling No. This is the most important factor right now; that No continues to fall. Once it falls, it won’t go up again. Then we should expect the Yes to start matching it before, hopefully, taking the lead next year.

    24. Ally says:

      I was at the meeting in Clydebank. Sarwar “tonight i’m going to give the case why we are better together…..I’m a proud Scot, My grandfather…..” – Still waiting to hear his “possitive case”
       
      Clydebank Post article here: http://www.clydebankpost.co.uk/news/roundup/articles/2013/10/10/474430-mp-slams-antienglish-abuse-at-clydebank-debate/

    25. Albalha says:

      @DaveMcEwanHill
      I get that but I suppose, with such a low turnout, wouldn’t it be possible for the SNP to get their vote out in larger numbers as I’m sure there are at least 400 or so eligible voters who’d have voted SNP.

    26. Scaraben says:

      @heraldnomore and others with poor broadband
       
      If you use Mozilla Firefox as your browser, you could try using the DownloadHelper add-on, to download YouTube and other videos to your hard drive so that you can then watch them without annoying pauses.

    27. muttley79 says:

      @HenBroon
       
      Sarwar is simply dreadful and yet the Govan by election votes for  a Labour cooncilor on a 20% TURNOUT. It must cause concern for the SNP. WTF happened in Govan. The SNP cannot get their vote out, it does not bode well for the referendum. We should be slaughtering Labour. WTF is going to happen in Dunfermline? Are the polls right are Yes losing? Or was their something dodgy going on in Govan. Does anyone know, it has all gone horribly quiet?
       
      I am not sure that you can make a link between a Council by election and a referendum on independence.  The latter is the most significant vote in hundreds of years, and is far more important.  Why should the SNP be slaughtering Labour when the turnout is so low, and they were second previously?  Labour are likely to win the Dunfermline by election as well.  They only need a 1% swing, and it is pretty much still a Labour stronghold.  The SNP would have been shocked to win it in 2011.

    28. Jim Sinclair says:

      I thought this article from former SNP MSP Campbell Martin dealt very well with the Labour argument that independence would be abandoning the English working class to Tory governments.

      http://campbellmartin.blogspot.co.uk/2013/10/scottish-independence-and-english.html
       

    29. Iain says:

      @scottish_skier

      Here’s a direct link to the poll:

      http://tinyurl.com/o3qtl4d

    30. Ally says:

      Had to chuckle at this line in http://www.journal-online.co.uk/article/11013-anas_sarwar_silenced_clydebank_debate_descends_into_chaos 
      Anas Sarwar was unavailable for comment. – how very apt!!

    31. Dave McEwan Hill says:

      The intersting thing about the Dunoon Better Together launch  was the turnout. If you take away the seven strong platform party and the officials  and the 15 or so YES folk that went along you are left with an audience of about 40 to hear a panel including two members of  Parliament and the Labour PPC for Argyll & Bute. 

      There appeared to be nobody below pensioner age in that group and many were not recognisable as Dunoon folk.

      Contrast that with the Dunoon YES launch which was full and standing room only with well over 150 at it (which Cowal Courier filmed a first class coverage of).

      No “political” questions were allowed at the Dunoon Better Together meet which points at a serious weakness which should be exploited at any Better Together meeting. It is easy to get the panel arguing among themselves if “political” matters are raised.

      What we can take from this sort of turnout is that there is absolutely no enthusiasm for the Better Together position and it will rely more and more on scaremongering and lies and a compliant and ("Tractor" - Ed)ous media 

    32. muttley79 says:

      @Rev Stu

      What did Brian Taylor say to Cara Hilton (saw it on WoS Twitter)?

    33. Thomas William Dunlop says:

      Romans couldn’t be bothered to occupy Scotland because having marched its length and breath they found ‘it was useless’

      This is particularly sad, when it is known that Central Scotland is criss crossed with Roman  Forts & Roads .
      One makes you wonder if there is a conspiracy to deny all Scotland, all of its history- that we are nothing more than Northern British, unfortunate to be so far away from the important places, fortunate to be looked after in this state by folk who give back some (but not all) of our hard earned cash.
      Times are a changing, and the unionists are gonna catch the flu’
       

    34. david says:

      makes me proud to be part of a country that is home to the people of clydebank, they were awesome

    35. pa_broon74 says:

      I’ll check out the Govan footage at home (at work just now and the spoil sports block youtube.)
       
      They don’t block twitter however, the link given to the Dunoon Better Together image, the replies are well worth a read. I’ve tangled with the same UKIP supporters but never did I manage to put them down as well as the chap called Jon Elliot (@candlelands.)
       
      Classic, earned another follower with that last comment alone.
       
      On topic. Is Sarwar ever capable of going off script? I wouldn’t have thought so, he’s a unionist tape recorder, nothing more. He’s just not capable of independent thought,

    36. Edward says:

      Liz
      Turn out according to STV (cant find anything on the BBC) was 20.06% , which, as MajorBloodnok suggested could have been all postal votes……
      Of that 20.06%, Labour’s John Kane got 43.4%
      or to put it another way Labour managed to win by achieving 8.71% of the total registered voters of Govan
      Any way you want to shake the stick, Labour certainly should not be crowing about it with such an abysmal turnout

    37. Seasick Dave says:

      He’s just not capable of independent thought.
       
      Surely you mean separatist thought?

    38. david says:

      is ibrox in govan and would that influence a vote?

    39. DPICT says:

      It just proves the old saying right – You can’t fool all of the people all of the time. Well done Clydebank!

    40. Albalha says:

      On Brian’s blether the gither, Cara Hilton says she supports SNP council tax freeze, do they all say that?

    41. joe kane says:

      Regarding the Romans – even though Tacitus wrote it for political purposes and made it all up, the Roman failure to conquer (pre) Pictland, north of the Forth-Clyde isthmus, is responsible for inspiring one of the most famous speeches in history in support of freedom, national self-determination and is also searing criticism of imperial conquest. It contains the famous line –
      They plunder, they slaughter, and they steal: this they falsely name Empire, and where they make a wasteland, they call it peace. 

      Compare the attitude of a patrician Roman noble (of the 1st and 2nd Century CE) towards the peoples of his day who inhabited what would later become Scotland, to that of a contemporary Better Together supporter and you have to wonder who is the anachronism and who the enlightened sympathetic progressive. Where have the unionists been living for the past two thousand years?

      References –
      Tacitus 
      http://en.wikiquote.org/wiki/Tacitus 

      Tacitus: Calgacus speech to his troops (A.D. 85)
      http://www.thelatinlibrary.com/imperialism/readings/agricola.html 

      ps
      Even though he is a fictional character the Caledonian Chieftain Calgacus who delivers the speech is the first named ‘Scot’ in the historical documentary record.

    42. scottish_skier says:

      Iain: Here’s a direct link to the poll:
       
      Thanks. Seems they are trying to weight to Holyrood. The low Yes is the shy factor. Unless that is someone else can explain why SNP 2011 voters are 67% Yes when asked in privacy online (e.g. panelbase and ICM), and 52% Yes when asked to their face on the doorstep (TNS). Likewise e.g. 20% No on the doorstep and 16% No online. 
       
      It affects all parties, but only the Yes vs DK, underplaying Yes with these people saying ‘DK’ instead of Yes.
       
      So, the No is probably about the 44% quoted (re-adjusting here won’t do much and the PVW they applied didn’t affect this which is good), and the Yes at minimum 30%, not 25%. Fine.
       
      Either way, as I said before, people should be focussing on the falling No at this stage. That’s the biggest hurdle to overcome. Once people move from No to DK, Yes will follow.

      Headline:

      56% not willing to back the union one year from the referendum

    43. HandandShrimp says:

      Labour win Govan with 8.7% of the electorate voting for them? A ringing endorsement of Matheson’s leadership then? Sad that the SNP could not motivate more of its vote to take to the ballot box. 8.7% is not a big hurdle.
       
      Seriously, democracy is pretty much dead in parts of Glasgow. Regardless of Yes or No the interest and engagement of ordinary Glaswegians in the political process is beyond a joke. As the party that has run Glasgow for decades Labour and its shennaigans must take a share of the blame.
       
      One concern I do have is that we could win this vote on a low turnout and then people like Foulkes will start demanding that the process be halted and that Westminster suspend Holyrood.  Quite how one re-engages the dis-engaged is another matter.

    44. Rev. Stuart Campbell says:

      “is ibrox in govan and would that influence a vote?”

      Yes it is, and you’d have thought so.

    45. ianbrotherhood says:

      Most of us know how we’re voting – the job is to persuade others.
       
      For someone in a typical workplace, there isn’t a lot of time for chit-chat, and when people do get a break they’re not often into discussing politics. So, it would be quite an achievement to get the DKs in one’s office/factory/shop talking about this stuff for even, say 15 mins of every working day.
       
      If you strip out week-ends, public holidays, personal holidays etc, that leaves approx 224 ‘working’ days where contact with the DKs is possible. Multiply that by 15 mins per day (which seems generous) then you end up with approx 56 hours.
       
      2 days and 8 hours.
       
      We really don’t have that much time, eh?

    46. scottish_skier says:

      Note TNS-BMRB No peaked at 53% in September 2012; the No peak of all polls being late 2012 / around the time of the Edinburgh Agreement. So it’s fallen 9% since then.
       
      Over the same period, the overall No lead has fallen from ~25 points to 10-12 at best, i.e. halved.

    47. Macart says:

      @Stuart Black
      Serious question, why do these people even live here if they think this way? I’m lost for words, really…
       
      They know where the door is Stuart. If this country isn’t good enough for them they should be careful not to let that door hit them on the arse on the way out. There was a piece by Derek Bateman the other day over on his blog where he described an entity known as a principled unionist. Clearly none were present at the Cowal meeting then. I posted at the time that they reminded me of bigfoot. Plenty of compelling circumstantial and anecdotal evidence, but no hard proof of their existence. At best some grainy out of focus images. 🙂

    48. HandandShrimp says:

      Joe
       
      Severus would have something to say to that youngster too. The amount of effort and lives lost by the Romans in the early 3rd century to conquer the Caledonians was considerable. When Severus died at York still planning more campaigns his sons said “Stuff this for a game of soldiers” and went back to Rome to secure their future and succession in the Empire and the line once again fell back to Hadrian’s Wall (or Adrian’s Wall as some equally well infomed divot on the Mail a while back insisted on calling it)

    49. joe kane says:

      The title of Anas’s speech “Why workers in Scotland should vote no” reflects the fact One Nation Labour is no longer the party of the working class but claims to be the party of “work”, whatever that means. I think it has something to do with the idea that there is no such thing any more as unemployment, just something called “worklessness”.

      Miliband has even claimed there are actually different historical varieties of the Labour Party. There has been Attlee’s Labour and New Labour and so his is One Nation Labour ‘The Party of work’.

      The party of work
      http://action.labour.org.uk/page/s/the-party-of-work

    50. scottish_skier says:

      Another fact. Out of the last 7 years, ‘majority support’ for No (>50%) has only been present at the very most for at most 6 months (namely late 2012).

    51. Albalha says:

      On the upcoming Dunfermline election at least the Courier don’t shy away from empty chairing Labour.
       
      http://www.thecourier.co.uk/news/politics/snp-slam-412m-fife-school-bill-1.139624

    52. HandandShrimp says:

      Macart
       
      If there were only 60 there and some of those were our people there wouldn’t be much opportunity for a principled Unionist to be there. I mean say 50 were Unionists and 1% are principled then there was only a 50/50 chance one would turn up
       
      😉
       
       

    53. Macart says:

      HandandShrimp
      😀 LOL I’d still need to see something better than an out of focus image as proof of their existence.

    54. Training Day says:

      @skier
       
      I enjoy reading your posts and your relentless optimism is infectious.  But are we really not expecting a poll to appear on the day of the publication of the White Paper showing an all-time low for the Yes vote, followed a week later by a poll showing that the White Paper has had no galvanising effect on the Yes vote?  Seems to me these are both a given, and people will draw their own conclusions about pollsters as a result.

    55. Gav says:

      Just watched the vid. 
      I think in the interests of balance, we would have to call that a draw.
       

    56. david says:

      is ibrox in govan and would that influence a vote?”
      Yes it is, and you’d have thought so.
       
      i thought so

    57. A2 says:

      Is that Anas starting to check where the exits are at about 7.30?

    58. HandandShrimp says:

      Gav
       
      LOL
       
      They certainly drew blood

    59. david says:

      unionist polticians took our young people to war on a blatant lie, they lie as easyily as they  drown a puppy, fixing polls is childs  play to these people. huge natural majority for independence. please believe it

    60. James Morton says:

      This crowning piece from the Herald.
      Mr Kane’s victory, on a 7% swing, strengthens Labour’s grip on Glasgow, which had been a key target for the SNP at the 2012 elections.
      It also leaves Govan as the only electoral ward in the city without any Nationalist representation.  Given that the area lies on the doorsteps of Deputy First Minister Nicola Sturgeon, along with Scottish Labour leader Johann Lamont and her deputy Anas Sarwar, the outcome of Thursday’s poll will be seen by some as an electoral barometer 11 months before the independence referendum.
      Councillor Gordon Matheson, Labour leader of the council said: “There’s no way the SNP can spin their way out of this dramatic result.  What odds would the bookies have given a year ago on Govan ward being SNP-free?”
      The turnout was 20.06% down 10% from the last council election – that would concern me more even had the SNP won, and you can be sure, had they won this is a point lab would be bringing up. As for it being a bellwether of future events, with a turn out this low I really don’t think it would be wise for any party to casting the runes.
      there are lessons to be learned here.

    61. Eddie says:

      What was that loon shouting at Linda Fabiani?  Fair play to Linda for not ramming the microphone down her throat.

    62. Craig M says:

      Re Joe Kane.
      Labour will be adopting the slogan “Work sets you free” next.

    63. Iain says:

      Apropos of low information & lack of debate, Business for Scotland have a piece on the latest independence debate at the Edinburgh Royal Society.

      http://tinyurl.com/kvcqoat

      Poll at end 75% Yes to 25% No. Doesn’t look like there was a pre-debate poll which might have made it even more interesting, but the general drift seems to be that when there is actual debate, Yes wins. I’m guessing a lot of the No merchants are becoming well aware of this and we can look forward to even more Sarwarian shouting down.

    64. Bill C says:

      RE Govan result.  As I said last night on another thread, I was born in Govan and used to know the area pretty well.  Ibrox is of course in Govan but to be honest I don’t think that influenced last night’s result.  Govan is not the loyalist stronghold you would imagine, in fact probably more Celtic supporters live in Govan than do Rangers fans.  I have heard a few whispers from Celtic supporters I know and from Facebook that the anti-sectarian legislation is having a very negative effect on how some Celtic supporters view the SNP. Of course Labour are doing their utmost to fan the flames e.g. Michael McMahon MSP Bellshill. Hopefully  SNP strategists are aware of this. Celtic fans should be natural YES voters given the clubs connections with the independent Republic of Ireland.

    65. Edward says:

      Eddie
      I’ve watched that video and I actually think it was a plant, the woman was too Essex and too scripted to have been a natural / spontaneous audience member

    66. Albalha says:

      @Eddie
      Basically ‘Is that what a Nationalist Scotland looks like?’ (after Linda F had told A Sarwar?, I think, to, well, shut up).
       
      Just listened to that section again, when the woman starts heckling you can hear someone say ‘get the men in the white coats’, missed that first time.

    67. Roboscot says:

      ‘If this country isn’t good enough for them they should be careful not to let that door hit them on the arse on the way out.’
      Their country is Britain and the Scottish region is in it so why should they leave?
       

    68. Kenny Campbell says:

      Celtic fans are not natural supporters of the SNP due the Irish links to Celtic. They have in the past had the fear of a rising protestant ubernation preached to them from the pulpit. What is amazing across the sectarian divide is how unionist both sides can be when naturally you’d just expect it from one side.

    69. Juan Bonnets says:

      Something that is prevalent in the Clydebank TUC video, as well as in a few other debates that have been recorded recently, is the crowd openly laughing derisively at Sarwar/whichever BT mouthpiece when they start spouting the usual scripted pish about border controls or pretend multilateralism. Seems like a good sign and part of the ‘normalisation’ of independence.

    70. proudscot says:

      Sarwar, talking through his Anas – as usual.

    71. Gary S says:

      The amount of Sevco/Sellick fans who will probably vote No next year due to their respective Footballing ideologies really saddens me.
       
      Like or not, they make up a sizeable chunk of the Scottish population. The blue cheek in particular is a big concern, can’t see many of them giving up their favourite hobby of waving around the red, white and blue butcher’s apron.

    72. macdoc says:

      SNP made a huge mistake introducing the offensive football bill. 
      Despite being well intentioned it was always going to polarize opinion and cause a huge number of individuals in where football is basically their life to despise the SNp and in turn vote NO in the referendum. It shouldn’t be underestimated how many people vote or form opinion depending on their particular football allegiance. 
       
      Like all polarizing debates like the monarchy, faith schools etc this topic should not have been introduced until after the referendum. As sad as it sounds and with such hostile media it was never going to be the smartest move when the referendum was only 2 years away. 
       
       

    73. Ghengis says:

      For those with poor broadband connections (I thought mine was bad): Click here for video where file-size has been reduced by 60%
       
      It might help … but dropbox might object if too many people connecting.
       
      In other news click here for an uplifting summary of recent debates and YES wins from businessforscotland.co.uk
       
       

    74. NorthBrit says:

      @Roboscot
      Why not change your name to Roboregion?  Incidentally Britain isn’t a country.
       
      Fearties – you need to re-program your auto-troll software – the words you’re looking for are “United Kingdom” and “nation”.

    75. Roboscot says:

      Northbrit
       
      Sorry, you’ve missed my point. Scotland is my nation and I’ll be voting Yes. I just think it’s important to respect the proud and patriotic Scots who see Britain as their nation and Scotland a region of it.

    76. Albalha says:

      Re Celtic fans this seems a pretty active group, https://www.facebook.com/pages/Celtic-Fans-for-Scottish-Independence/369131026457416 and their banner at the Barcelona game was pretty impressive.
       
      I understand the anger at the legislation, if that is a reason for anti SNP feeling, I don’t see why the breach of the peace law and others dealing specifically with religion and race, couldn’t have been enforced more often. It’s not to excuse behaviour but it was rushed through, in my view.
       
      I don’t see how anyone can read too much into a turnout of 20% of voters in any council constituency. And as @BillC says Ibrox is a very mixed area, much like many parts of Glasgow, or any other large city.

    77. Gary S says:

      @macdoc
       
      Indeed, I disagree with a lot of the SNP’s policies regarding Football and while we’re semi on the subject, alcohol as well.
       
      However, I see the bigger picture overall and will always remain a strong supporter of Independence.

    78. Danny says:

      Sad to hear about the situation in Govan. I used to stay in the area and would agree with Bill C ,at the time I lived there it was a Celtic area. Though I would disagree that Ibrox is in Govan,maybe the old parish but I’ve never considered Ibrox to be in Govan but thats an aside.And no I’m not a Celtic fan.
      I worked in many of the elections in the various changes that constituency has been through. And experienced at first hand the sectarian card played by the Labour party. 
      I think with the sectarian legislation some thought it wouldn’t apply to them and I’d really hope that last nights result wasn’t as a result of that. 
      Where the SNP do lose out especially in byelections is in the postal vote,I’d be interested to hear what that was last night and I am certainly worried about it in Dunfermline.

    79. rodmac says:

      I note that the first shares released for Royal Mail today immediately shot up in price with a quarter immediately traded..
      Here is my take..

      http://auldacquaintance.wordpress.com/2013/10/11/postman-pat-sold-off-but-dont-tell-sid/

    80. Bill C says:

      @Kenny Campbell – I agree Kenny, although up until very recently the SNP had dispelled some of the myths being peddled by Labour and some in the Catholic Church that an independent Scotland would be a Protestant Scotland.  Unfortunately people like McMahon have fanned the flames again and it looks like all the hard work put in by Alex Salmond to alleviate concerns in the Catholic community is being undermined by the anti-sectarian legislation which is having an effect on both sides of the Old Firm divide, especially it would appear, the green side.  This is an issue which is even older than me, it is highly regrettable given that it is an issue born of a different country, but it is an issue which might be addressed, or it might just cost us a YES vote

    81. Eddie says:

      I have faith in my fellow Celtic supporters.  One has drifted away from voting ‘no’ due to the anti-sectarianism bill (which I believe is being mis-used by the Police) to a stance on how he would be a definite ‘YES’ voter if we had a promise from the SNP that international aid would not be given to countries who don’t need it ie, Pakistan.
       
      Back to the anti-sectarian bill, I was dismayed to see a Celtic fan arrested for singing the song ‘Roll Of Honour”.  Yes, it does praise IRA hunger strikers but the worst lyrics I can see are those that call England a monster.  Stupid to praise IRA members but really!!  Still no dawn raids on memebers of the armed forces who indulged in a bout of jingoism at Ibrox and sang along to a song about wading in blood.  This is why a section of the Celtic support are aggrieved.

    82. Gary S says:

      For all it means, a quick look at the respective Facebook page numbers:
       
      Celtic fans FOR Indy – 3206 likes
      Celtic fans AGAINST Indy – 48
       
      Sevco fans FOR indy – 468
      Sevco fans AGAINST indy – 1191
       
      Ultimately, it means nothing but sort of interesting all the same. To some, perhaps.

    83. Jingly Jangly says:

      Didn’t Robertson say in the Abertay debate that the SNP did not represent the people of Scotland as they did not have an outright majority. How does that sit with Labour winning the Govan Council by election with  under 10% of those eligible to vote?
       
       

    84. HandandShrimp says:

      What people seem to forget is that the legislation on sectarianism brought in against a background of newspapers crying “Oh the humanity won’t someone do something!” and Neil Lennon being sent bullets and bombs in the post.
       
      I mean FFS! You are damned if you do nothing and damned if you do something.

    85. Bill C says:

      @macdoc – I think your analysis is spot on.  I am a member of the SNP (40 + years) but think the football and alcohol legislation was rushed, ill thought out and could, as you say, have waited until after the referendum.

    86. Stuart Black says:

      “Their country is Britain and the Scottish region is in it so why should they leave?”
       
      I take your later point, but I think the paradox is how those self-described “proud and patriotic Scots” can stand on a public platform and listen to some wee balloon describe their country as “useless” without response.
       
      Doesn’t seem either proud or patriotic to me.

    87. Stuart Black says:

      Oh yes, and Scotland is not a “region”.
       
      Thank you.

    88. Kenny Campbell says:

      “Like or not, they make up a sizeable chunk of the Scottish population. The blue cheek in particular is a big concern, can’t see many of them giving up their favourite hobby of waving around the red, white and blue butcher’s apron.”
       
      It’s a wonder the SNP managed a majority then….maybe start to think about your own prejudices in there.  Glasgow has a predominantly working class history with left wing socialism being to use a BT phrase virulent. Pockets of Toryism exist in the posh ghettos surrounding the city. Throwing off the faux socialist yoke is the issue its not a London/Edinburgh thing.
       
      As I have explained multiple times to middle class laddies from outside of Glasgow who think they know what drives the obnoxious side of the Rangers support. Its founded not in being pro Britain but its in being anti Irish.  Rangers support was massively influenced by the troubles in NI in the 70’s , the British effect comes from that. The club was founded at a time when Irish immigration was seen as a real issue as regards ‘taking oor joabs’ . Therefore Irish or Catholic = bad…. Ulster unionists have a similar mindset. Its not primarily pro London but anti Dublin. Ulster/Belfast with its industrial past dominated by protestant management/ trade unions is a reasonable mirror of Glasgow.
       
      To some extent I blame other clubs supporters in Scotland for changing the dynamic of the rivalry to being more about UK unionism by mistaking the message behind the flags.
       
      Certainly I now occasionally see an anti Independence and anti SNP vibe at Rangers games that I haven’t seen to the same extent previously, its however quite new and is in my view a completely new phase. There are plenty of nutters in the support now who like you don’t understand the roots of the problem. So a new phase of arseholery seems to be awakening.

    89. Bill C says:

      @HandandShrimp – With all due respect, Governments should not be swayed by the media or the press. Knee jerk legislation will always create more problems in the long term than solve in the short term.

    90. Gary S says:

      @Kenny Campbell
      “Its founded not in being pro Britain but its in being anti Irish. Rangers support was massively influenced by the troubles in NI in the 70?s , the British effect comes from that.”
       
      Hi Kenny,
       
      I’m an Aberdeen fan and have been in the visiting end at Ibrox on numerous occasions. In response to ‘GSTQ’ we usually sing ‘O, Flower of Scotland’ which has always been met with resounding boos from a large section of the home support.
       
      So I’ve always been under the impression it stems from a bit of both to be honest (anti Irish and pro-Union feelings)
       
      If your impression is that anti-indy feelings are not as high as I think within the Rangers support then I am delighted and happy to be educated otherwise.
       

    91. NorthBrit says:

      @Roboscot
      Both Scotland and England are nations, not regions.
       
      I’m not going to respect anyone who claims to be proud of where they were born any more than I respect someone who is proud that they were born white.
       
      I would have no problem with someone on the No side saying he was a British patriot who wanted to keep his country together because he thought that was in the best interests of its inhabitants as a whole. It is logical nonsense to claim to be a Scottish patriot who wants to be ruled by England.

    92. Albalha says:

      @GaryS
      Wondering if you think the voting intentions of people who turn out in their 10’s of thousands to watch football are not ‘interesting’ to everyone. (Maybe you’re not saying that).
       
      Supporters of both clubs have a Scotland wide fan base and with that a range of views. However if there is an obvious misunderstanding, of what may come in an independent Scotland, amongst an identifiable number of either set of fans then I think it’s worth targetting. 

    93. HandandShrimp says:

      Bill C
       
      That may be the case but there were at the time real fears that deaths were going to occur. I’m not sure why but it was a particularly difficult momment in the pointless long running feud. Governments often legislation in reaction to ongoing events the current Scottish Government is no exception although they are not as new law happy as Westminster has been over the last 40 odd years.
       
      I would like to see a time when there is no need for such a law because sectarianism has been consigned to history.

    94. Macart says:

      @Roboscot
       
      The point being that whether they regard where they live as a region or a country the biggest cheer of the night anecdote seemed to be their collective response to living in said region or country as a self governing entity. That cheer as you’ll have read was in response to this:  
       
      “The loudest cheer and longest applause of the evening was in response to the Better Together youth representative’s declaration that the Romans couldn’t be bothered to occupy Scotland because having marched its length and breath they found ‘it was useless’.”
       
      Clearly they can call it what they like, but they appear fairly convinced of its shortcomings already. That being the case it seems reasonable to assume they’d prefer the advantages of a different locale?

    95. Kenny Campbell says:

      I’ve been attending Ibrox since the 70’s, I’m not saying its not there at all today but its defo not founded in an anti SNP vibe and IMHO this phase isn’t wholly embedded yet.  It reminds me of the tossers wearing England tops to the game when we had a big English contingent. Its evolved to where it is today and there is some clear anti SNP/Salmond/TA stuff which is disturbing.
       
      If you shouted black we’d shout white….that’s how the singing goes.

    96. Gary S says:

      @Albalha
       
      Sorry, I don’t understand what you’re asking in your first paragraph, can you re-phrase?
       
      I agree with your second point.

    97. Desimond says:

      Govan, schmovan.
      Lets be honest, any council and indeed Dunfermline even election is secondary on most peoples minds. Unless through a catalogue of circumstances, we suddenly get presented with SNP losing a majority at Holyrood then nothing bar Sept 18th 2014 matters.
      Hearing some horrid wee Glasgow City Council Leadr crow about Govan win, well at least it saves him keeping the Glasgow Police busy, so every cloud and all that…

    98. scottish_skier says:

      Anyone who claims to be ‘proudly’ Scottish is most likely the opposite.
       
      I’m not ‘proud’ to be Scottish. I’m just Scottish; that’s my nationality. My wife isn’t ‘proud’ to be French, she’s simply French. Nationality is something we all have that’s just normal. Not something to be all ‘proud’ about.
       
      Saying you are ‘proud’ to be of X nationality all the time (it’s normal to be proud sometimes, e.g. when your country passes equality legislation where the general consensus is that’s a really good thing) suggests that you think X’s are superior in some way.
       
      I don’t believe the vast majority of Scots think that, be they independence supporters or not. They’re just ‘Scottish’ as people from Denmark are Danish. Of course there’s always going to be small a minority who might genuinely feel their Xness marks them out as something special, but a small minority as noted. Those are people who are e.g. ‘proudly British’ and tend to be right-wingers/fanatics.
       
      So, if you are constantly telling people you are ‘proudly Scottish’, you’re either a bit of a nut job or you don’t feel Scottish much at all and are trying desperately to convince people you do. Many pro-union campaigners fall into the latter group it would appear.
       
      One other possible, but rare, alternative reason for someone saying they are ‘Hey, I’proud to be Scottish’ is when their nationality is being attacked as inferior and they are trying to say that this is not the case (but not superior either). If that is happening in the UK, then what nationality is being proposed as superior? So not good for No either…

    99. a supporter says:

      In the light of what I have preceived as a bad few weeks for the NO campaign I am very miffed. There has to be something wrong with the SNPs campaign when we aren’t able to turnout a few hundred extra supporters in Govan. Where were the much vaunted ‘grass roots’ campaigners? And if the rumours of losing in Dunfermline are true even though there will undoubtedly be a Walker effect; what will that say?
      It says to me that the YES campaign is not working. It clearly has a big advantage on the Internet and Twitter with most surveys there showing YES in the lead. So why isn’t it officially supporting the Independence blogs? It seems to want to ignore the Internet if not actually disown it. It never replies to emails or tweets. And the YES campaign doesn’t appear to read or understand what the Internet campaign is actually acieving, preferring it seems, to rely on its ‘grass roots’ people. They quite frankly do not appear to be having much effect on the polls or on anything else.  Nor does the YES campaign seem to realise that big hitters are needed to attend even minor media challenges. At the moment apart from a few really good results the YES/SNP people are being shafted on TV. And they will have to refuse to appear on programmes which are biased in number against Independence and which are not properly moderated. Some of you here think the Clydebank performance was favourable to YES and it was but it was still shambolic with no proper chairmanship. I gave up after watching Anas trying to speak. Discussions like that achieve nothing. And there are too many on TV and elsewhere which are a bit like that

    100. faolie says:

      It’s not the the comment about the Romans that bothers me. He’ll have been practising that line for hours and have thought himself pretty clever for saying it. No, it’s the people who not only ignored it but cheered FFS that make me bilin’. Who does that? Don’t get that one at all. In fact if I’d been there I’d have to have said something to the tossers.
       
      Incredible. Surely there must have been some proud Scots-buts there that were ashamed?

    101. Albalha says:

      @GaryS
      It was the reference ‘to some perhaps’, that threw me slightly, but seems I’ve misunderstood, as I thought.

    102. a supporter says:

      Further to my last post. I can see no reason why debates are not carried out like that at Abertay which was a model that should be copied everywhere. (see video)

    103. Stuart Black says:

      Macart, you put that far more eloquently and reasonably than I did, have a chocolate raisin.
       
      Or is it Mint Imperials these days? 😉

    104. kininvie says:

      O/T
       
      I know there are a few Livi folk on here:
      Yes West Lothian Street Stall
      Saturday, October 12, 2013 at 11:00 AM
      Almondvale Shopping Centre – at Bank of Scotland/Dedridge entrance in Livingston, Scotland
       
      Maybe some of you could come along? We’ll be there until about 1

    105. cheryl says:

      Polls on various Celtic forums, the busier ones anyway, regularly show a high 70% to low 80% in favour of yes. Normally I wouldn’t think it means anything but in 2011 polls on the same forums showed the SNP running away with the election. People kept saying at the time that it wasnt indicative of anything but it translated well in the end. I’m not really taking anything from it but I think an awful lot of people just keep their cards close to their chest.
      I also know of a lot who despise the SNP for the bill but will still be voting yes. The actual number who will vote on that one issue is miniscule imo. The bigger problem is the ones who are still led at the nose by Labour.

    106. Albalha says:

      @cheryl
      Well put. That’s why what Tony Kenny said at the Five Live debate about Shettleson is so interesting, that people he’s speaking to will be voting YES, and it’s been shifting for some time away from Labour.

    107. david says:

      @macdoc – I think your analysis is spot on.  I am a member of the SNP (40 + years) but think the football and alcohol legislation was rushed, ill thought out and could, as you say, have waited until after the referendum.

      thats conviction politics for you

    108. Davy says:

      Its quite a bit of footage, I have only watched until Sarwar finished talking or should that be tried to talk, and I have to admit it was very funny seeing him and the fool on before him, end up a complete cropper.
       
      It does give you a bit more faith to see at first hand your fellow Scots take on the scare story merchants as tell them exactlly what they think of the shit they spout.
       
      Well done to Clydebank and the organisers of that meeting, but dont expect to have anymore “No campaign” members coming to any further meetings they will proberly all be washing their hair that night, even the bald ones.
       
      Vote YES, Vote Scotland, Hail Alba.
       
         

    109. Macart says:

      @Stuart Black
       
      It depends on whether I have ma good teeth in or not. 😉

    110. HandandShrimp says:

      asupporter
       
      I guess for those of us who are Yes supporters without strong party affiliations we kind of look at results like Govan and wonder why nobody much bothered to vote at all rather than why specific grass roots workers failed to get voters out.
       
      Walker’s win at Dunfermline was unexpected and very tight. It is exactly the sort of seat a Government might lose at a mid term by-election…especially with the sitting MP turfed out and jailed. If Labour don’t win this they might as well shut up shop and go and collect model trains or something. Indeed, if the SNP win I would suggest Lamont’s job could be in question.
       
      The Yes vote is wholly separate from these fairly narrow and individual political events. The SNP retain a majority even if Dunfermaline is lost and with the Greens too there is no danger of the support for White Paper etc., failing. At this stage the Yes vote will be won on the arguments for or against independence not on minor fluctuations in party fortunes.

    111. Kenny Campbell says:

      Yes that Romans comment is pretty left field…..I also find it funny that an English woman would turn up at Clydebank Town hall shouting for the Union…bizarre really.

    112. Andy-B says:

      Well done Clydebank proud of the people there standing up for the working class
      something SLAB has failed to do for decades now.
       
      On another more sombre note, SLAB wins Govan by-election the SLAB website says John Kane gave Nicola Sturgeon a thumping, dear oh dear will the people of Govan NEVER! learn apparently not.
       
      Govan one of the poorest areas in Scotland is still entrenched in the Old Labour mentality sadly Old Labour are long since gone, come on Govan WAKE UP!
       
      http://www.scottishlabour.org.uk/press/entry/labours-john-kane-wins-in-govan-by-election
       
      Once again well done the Bankies.
       

    113. Gary S says:

      @Cheryl
       
      O/T
       
      Apologies for staying on Football but a quick look around the polls in the off topic forums of Aberdeen’s AFC Chat, Ross County, Hibs, Partick and even Pie and Bovril put Yes in a healthy lead.
       
      Can’t be a coincidence, very encouraging.

    114. gedboy says:

      KENNY CAMPBELL 
      IS THIS THE SAME KENNY CAMPBELL
      THATS WITH THE REGIMENTAL BLUES BY ANY CHANCE

    115. Kenny Campbell says:

      No sorry. Its not.

    116. Bill C says:

      @HighandShrimp”
      “I would like to see a time when there is no need for such a law because sectarianism has been consigned to history.” Total agreement.
      @david – Conviction politics are all very well, but realism in politics cannot be ignored. Political parties spend fortunes on focus groups in an attempt to produce polices which will win them votes. Unfortunately that is the way it works.

    117. Oneironaut says:

      Heard of a lot of people complaining about poor internet service recently.
      (I won’t even comment on the massive overpricing of such bad connections!)
       
      My own connection was never perfect, but it was usable.  Until recently it was shut down for a few hours while they did some “maintenance and upgrading” work on it.
      When it came back on, it seemed ok (the dial tone on the phone sounds different for some reason, but it still works, so no worries).  But the internet connection has a strange tendency to slow to a crawl or drop out completely for a few minutes at seemingly random times.
      I’m with the Post Office Homephone service, using their internet.  And so far they haven’t really given me much incentive to stay with them.  The only reason I haven’t bothered to change it yet is that I’ll likely be getting fleeced no matter who I sign up with!
       
      The conspiracy theorists among us may also note that with the mainstream media happily selling itself out to the BT mob, doing independent research online is just about the only place where anyone can find the real facts any more.  If people can’t get online to check up on what the media are shovelling out…
      Not saying they’re doing that deliberately.  But difficulty in researching might be a troublesome situation anyway, with less than a year to go for people to be convinced of the truth before the referendum.
      Often I don’t choose to quote stuff directly from the Yes campaign, I prefer to tell people to stop listening to the mainstream media and do their own research.  I think it has more impact on people when they discover the truth with their own eyes rather than having it directly quoted to them from a pamphlet or something.
       
      Anyways, to drag myself back on topic…
      Hopefully Sarwar’s reception there is indicative of the mood of the majority of the population.  People have good reason to be angry.  And you can only push people so far throughout history before they finally snap and shout: “Go take yer Empire and stick it up yer…  History books!” 😉

    118. HandandShrimp says:

      No sorry. Its not.
       
      LOL I think that Kenny would sooner drop angry scorpions down his underpants than post pro-independence comments on here. I think your explanation of the nuances in football support is pretty sound. There are Yes and No supporters across all walks of Scottish life from CEOs in Big Business to pensioners in the Outer Hebrides.  

    119. Shinty says:

      I too use PO homephone service (they offered a good deal at the time).
       
      I live in a rural location, ie one wee BT telephone exchange in the village – I was told by some technical guy, that given our location, changing providers wouldn’t change the speed of service because it all comes through the same exchange.  In other words ‘superfast broadband’ ain’t going to happen here anytime soon.
       
      I had to buy a new PC last year and it is faster, ie can watch stuff on youtube, but other stuff like iplayer etc can be really poor.
       
      Just checked with ‘speed checker’  6.8MB download/ 0.4MB upload (stop laughing you lot at the back – living in rural Scotland does have other advantages)

    120. Taranaich says:

      Hey, our country is so useless when the Romans conquered Britain, they decided not to bother with Scotland because it wasn’t worth the effort – HOORAY!
       
      Hey, our country is so impoverished that there’s less oil than we thought and thus scuppering any possibility of making life more comfortable for the average citizen – HOORAY!
       
      Hey, our country is so stupid that we’d vote in a man we regularly call a dictator, snake-oil salesman, dishonest, and more besides – HOORAY!
       
      Hey, our country is so weak that even the mighty UK can’t be bothered having more than the one boat patrolling one of the largest coastlines in Europe – HOORAY!
       
      Hey, our country is so bereft of culture and language that we simultaneously feel the need to mention how “proud” we are to be Scots despite the constant savaging we’re giving our own country’s culture, language, flag and history – HOORAY!
       
      Getting real tired of this.

    121. Elizabeth Sutherland says:

      My take on the sport issue, Scotland says No next year dose that mean at World events home nations will play under one team GB banner. No Scotland at World Cup, Olympics. Debate.

    122. Ghengis says:

      @Shinty
      ” 6.8MB download/ 0.4MB upload ”
      Whit!? That’s an excellent connection!
      Ours is currently 2.29Mbps Download/ 0.36Mbps Upload which is the fastest we’ve experienced here ever.
      Tested here: – http://www.speedtest.net/

    123. Juteman says:

      @Elizabeth.
      That idea needs to be pushed. It might get non politicos interested.
      After all, if we vote to be part if greater England, why should we have our own football team?

    124. Shinty says:

      Ghengis – I do sympathise with you as that was our speed before I got my new PC – it was little better than dial up. 

      Maybe there is an MP living up this way now 🙂

    125. Richard Lucas says:

      @Shinty” 6.8MB download/ 0.4MB upload ”Whit!? That’s an excellent connection!Ours is currently 2.29Mbps Download/ 0.36Mbps Upload which is the fastest we’ve experienced here ever.Tested here: – http://www.speedtest.net/
      .95 download – .25 upload here. Hooray! I’ve got the most crappy connection!  And I get to pay just as much as the folk with a decent service.

    126. Shaun Milne says:

      |Nice to here working folk of Scotland telling Anas how it is. There is such a gulf between the approach of Yes and No that it beggars belief how anyone could side with the latter ( those who have seats and expenses to lose are the exception).

    127. Rev. Stuart Campbell says:

      “No Scotland at World Cup”

      In fairness, it’d take an awfully long time to notice the difference…

    128. Les Calthorps says:

      Oneironart—have you tried to get through to the Postoffice helpline during the last six weeks?
      On at least four occasions I have held on for over an hour and have yet to get through.
      Their first gambit during my numerous calls is to state if you have not received your bill don’t worry they are on the case and hope to get the bills out soon–this is a sure sign that they are in deep trouble technical wise.  You then go through the typical rigmaroll and are left hanging on, all the time being assured that your call is important to them!!!!!!!
      PS—am sending this from another source.   

    129. Albert Herring says:

      Posted this in the last thread but maybe fits better here.
       
      I was at the Clydebank debate. The English woman at the centre of the front row who heckled Linda Fabiani was an obvious plant, and I suspect the man who called her a bitch was too. Several people sitting in his vicinity told him he was out of order. I reckon it was all a set-up.

    130. Paula Rose says:

      I am deeply, deeply saddened.

    131. Ann says:

      The Local weekly the Dunfermline Press ran an on-line survey and 52% of the 656 responders have indicated that they will vote SNP.  Labour were next nearest at 17%

      The Libs were way behind UKiP on 7%

      Labour are going to lose this vote through the school closure program, simply because the are going to close Pitcorthie Primary which has a 94-96% capacity, but which somehow managed to drop to 74% after some fiddling by the Labour Councillors.
       

    132. Ann says:

      Sorry should be UKIP on 7% and Libs 5%.

    133. Albalha says:

      @AlbertHerring
      Any way of identifying who these people are? Maybe via branch officials, just a thought, but wasn’t there so no idea.

    134. Albert Herring says:

      Any way of identifying who these people are?
       
      I couldn’t myself, not being local.
       
      There has to be something wrong with the SNPs campaign when we aren’t able to turnout a few hundred extra supporters in Govan.
       
      Aye, I know. Weeks on end of running up and down tenements, followed by 9 hours standing in the cold outside a polling station. Could do better.

    135. Peter says:

      The anti bigot legislation was introduced because the previous laws were not being applied to the scum.

      Labour in North-North England went into the election demanding that the SNP do something about sectarionism and were accusing the evil Salmond of being soft on the issue and not caring. Remember that it was delayed and the labour bigotfarmers were going mental about how it was all a plot because the SNP are bigots? 

      Now that there is a new law labour and their lapdog loyals in the media are using it to attack the SNP.   Blatant and unreported hypocrisy. Even those who should know better fail to support it. LPW that’s you that is 

      The day that Rantic are kicked out of Scotland and sent to their true home can’t come quickly enough.

      The disgusting mcmahon and the rest of labour’s catholic mafia need to be exposed as the ("Quizmaster" - Ed)s that they truly are.   Freedom for Ireland but slavery for Scotland.  That’s some powerful brainwashing to make anybody believe that.

    136. ScotFree1320 says:

      At the Govan by election, postal vote returns were over 50% but polling station turnout was about half that. The lesson? Identify your core supporters and sign them up for a postal vote, because they’re then twice as likely to cast their vote. Also, on a hopeful note, there were plenty of canvas returns of people who said they’d never, ever vote SNP, but who are definitely going to vote YES in September’s referendum.  

    137. Stevie says:

      Anas got reamed by active trade unionsts — splendid.  He is after all, one of the people most likely to lie and bully anyone in sight.  OFF, OFF, OFF, OFF, OFF!!!!!

    138. Shinty says:

      have you tried to get through to the Postoffice helpline during the last six weeks?
      On at least four occasions I have held on for over an hour and have yet to get through.

      Yup, been there got the t-shirt. I agree terrible service – never used to be, so don’t know what is going on.
       
      Peter – I agree McMahon is a low life. I remember him at FMQ’s getting a dressing down from the FM and saw quite clearly what he muttered, he certainly wasn’t saying ‘smart fellow’ (being partially deaf, I have learned to read lips). Dreadful way for anyone to behave in parliament, (don’t get me started on this weeks episode).
       
      Sorry guys but Tricia Marwick is not fit for purpose. There was a guy standing in for her on one occasion (sorry not up to speed, so don’t know his name) but he seems far more up to the job. I am all for fairness in the work place, but only on merit.
       
      As for this Catholic/Protestant thing at football. FFS this is the 21st century get it sorted or  threaten the buggers with a life ban from the matches. Life for many folk is hard enough without all this crap. Sorry rant over.

    139. crisiscult says:

      In line with football comments:
       
      England beat Montenegro. My wife is Ukrainian. How should I feel? Whenever I read anything from better together I’m reminded that I’m married to a …. (oh, I can’t even say the F word in polite company). I’ll need to check how many times we were on Ukraine’s side in the last 300 years of history to see if they are bad people or not.
       
       

    140. Mad Jock McMad says:

      Minor problem – the Romans at one point had over 30,000 troops along the Highland line merely to keep their lines of communication open to sustain the main expeditionary camp, which is estimated to have held 20,000 troops just south of Aberdeen.

      The Romans tried their usual trick of buying off local chiefs after the set piece battle of ‘Mons Grampius’ but apparently failed and the Tribes’ response is believed to have created the Pictish Federation who raided out of the Straths stealing from the logistic train. The Roman’s packed their bags simply because the number of troops being held down in Scotland to protect the logistic train from Hadrian’s Wall to Aberdeen was around 60,000 in total plus the expeditionary force itself. A level of supply and expenditure even the excellent Roman Military machine could not sustain.

      It seems the old gag of ‘Centurion, it was a trap – there was two of them‘ has a small smidgeon of truth within it.

    141. JLT says:

      That was a very …very …interesting video. I know the sound was pretty poor in large parts of it (due to far too many folk shouting …usually at Anas if I was to be honest).
      Rather than discuss what they said, I would rather think about what just took place in that room.
       
      What gives me hope here, is that this was a LABOUR get together (think about that. There were no Tories in the room, no chief execs. This was Labour leaders, Labour Councillors, Labour activists, Labour Supporters …and Union paying members – it was folk from all over the LABOUR movement.)
       
      I’m therefore, actually astounded at the level of support for Independence amongst all those folk. Sure there was the odd handclap for Anas when he spoke, but when compared to Linda, and the boy next to her (didn’t get his name, but he was great!), I was really surprised at how they cheered both Linda and the boy.
      I’m hoping …really hoping, that if the Unions in Scotland can just come out and say, ‘that they are backing Independence’, then I think everything changes! It would be a ‘game changer!’
       
      My view is, that I think the Unions are sitting there in great frustration with the Labour Party (both sides of the border), and I wouldn’t be surprised if there are some key figures in the Unions have said …’we give it to the end of February. If Miliband or Lamont don’t move to more social and democratic set of policies, then we go our own way.’
      What I think Labour politicians, like Sarwar are forgetting, is that many Nationalists (like myself), are in a Union. We are union paying members, and for me, Labour are infuriating me more as each week goes by, especially with one Ms Lamont’s performance each Thursday lunchtime. On top of that, we have a Labour leader in Miliband, who just seems to alienate the Scots. We can see through him. He is a ‘Toom Tabard’ (’empty suit’ for all you folk who want to know some old Scots phraseology!).
       
      Something has to give within the Labour movement. I can’t see it remaining the way it is, as we get closer to the 18th of September. I think there will be an ‘…Enough!’ moment for the Unions in Scotland. I think someone will finally say, ‘…Independence is the only way to go, if the Labour Union movement has to survive somehow in the greater Britain, and if that means an independent Scotland, then, so be it…’

    142. Smudge says:

      I just wish someone would kick anasses anus in real life 🙂
       
      hopefully sept 18 2014 will see it happen 🙂

    143. The Rough Bounds says:

      Govan cooncil election: only 20% bother to vote. Result: Labour win and Scotland loses.
      20% is one fifth. This means that four out of five people couldn’t be bothered getting off their backsides to go out and use the democratic vote that their forefathers fought and died for.
       
      Goven people have elected the council representative they deserve.

    144. The Rough Bounds says:

      @shinty.
       
      Agreed regarding Tricia Marwick. Too soft I reckon on the Labour loudmouths.
      It was Ms. Marwick that was pushing for Gordon Brown to be given the Freedom of Kirkcaldy as I recall, much to the annoyance of the SNP councillors in her constituency.

    145. gordoz says:

      Well done to the Clydebank TUC / Labour / Socialist movement in Scotland ! Well done Clydebank.

      If this is the true inner workings of Labour, this is fantastic stuff.

      Mr Sarwar not popular – nor Lamont. (Must admit a chuckle at comment on proud scot issue & his dad)

      He did not like his reception one bit, but then his content & contribution deserved it, avoided answers as usual, but this was his own side as it were.

      Must admit he persevered well with BT mantra (as normal), for most part, but as he tried to justify the strange southern female BT protagonist in the audience he lost all credibility as usual.

      Uplifting stuff from the socialist cause / great stuff

    146. Cankert Callan says:

      @heraldnomore
      Try using YouTubes mobile site or if you have firefox install videodownloadhelper and download the mobile version, it’s only 25mb.

    147. joe kane says:

      For what it’s worth, an interesting analysis on the TUC blog about “Milibandism”, which is about fixing broken markets. No mention of socialism or fixing broken democracy – 
      The emerging shape of Milibandism 
      ToUChstone
      11 Oct 2013
      http://touchstoneblog.org.uk/2013/10/the-emerging-shape-of-milibandism 

    148. Shinty says:

      @ the Rough Bounds
      “It was Ms. Marwick that was pushing for Gordon Brown to be given the Freedom of Kirkcaldy as I recall, much to the annoyance of the SNP councillors in her constituency”
       
      Good grief! For his contribution to what exactly?
       
      Hopefully when we get independence, there will be a good clear out and get rid of the clutter.

    149. Wilson fae Ayr says:

      I just bumped into this thread and all I want to say is: I’m a unionist, if that means I’d prefer Scotland to keep being part of Britain, I’m definitely NOT any nationalistic patriotic right-winged pro-Union (or, the other way round, pro-SNP) sort of person.

      Secondly: please stop bringing football into politics and viceversa.

      Glasgow’s always been a left-wing Labour stronghold, be it Celtic or Rangers (only a few misguided ones at Parkhead would have others believe Rangers is ‘fascist’), and I’m a Rangers fan. I know my lot. Thousands of working class lads who might even wave the Union Jack just because it’s FOOTBALL RIVALRY, nothing else. Call it ‘stupid mass phenomena’, but that’s it. If you translate that into politics you’re simply going nowhere. I know plenty of fellow Rangers fans who vote for the SNP, although I can easily say the majority of us would still vote Labour.

      So please forget about mixing football and politics, it won’t work.

    150. Rev. Stuart Campbell says:

      “Thousands of working class lads who might even wave the Union Jack just because it’s FOOTBALL RIVALRY, nothing else.”

      So why does every poll conducted on Rangers fansites return 80%+ for a No vote, while those for every other Scottish club come out with majorities for Yes?

      “So please forget about mixing football and politics, it won’t work.”

      Go tell that to the Union Bears.

      There are some Rangers fans who support independence. Of course there are. I’m full of admiration for anyone taking such a brave stance. But the club and its support as a whole is one of the biggest bulwarks of Unionism in Scotland, and it’s absurd to pretend otherwise.



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