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Wings Over Scotland

The grand strategy

Posted on October 16, 2019 by

Yesterday we finally got to hear the infallible top-secret plan for independence.

Oh. Oh well, that’s okay then. That should sort it all right out.

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373 to “The grand strategy”

  1. Paul Miller says:

    It appears they can’t handle the truth…

  2. Capella says:

    I think there may be some legal back up. This will end up in court if Westminster doesn’t comply.

  3. Terrycallachan says:

    And the grand strategy of WOS is ?
    Well we have never heard of a strategy never mind a GRAND strategy

    SNP is the only political party that will get us Scottish independence
    It isn’t perfect
    There are different ways to go about it
    To all those losing faith I say
    If you have a different grand strategy let’s hear it

  4. Capella says:

    Using levels.
    Level 1 – polite request
    Level 2 – firm request
    Level 3 – spell out consequences if legitimate request denied
    level 4 – carry out consequences.

  5. cynicalHighlander says:

    Stop this GRA nonsense where you will have to call a man she because they say so.

  6. One_Scot says:

    Given that Nicola said the question is not what will the SNP do if a Section 30 is not granted, but what right does Westminster have to refuse it, then I agree that she clearly intents to go to court over the matter.

  7. Terrycallachan says:

    Read the rest of Julie Hepburns tweet just click on “show this thread”
    It will also take you to what Julie Hepburn was responding to
    Which was a message from Nicola Sturgeon SNP

    Best read the whole story
    And not just the little bit above

  8. Sandy says:

    You are in danger of turning into that grumpy old geezer in the pub that everyone tries to avoid. C’mon Stu – you have done a fantastic job for Indy, but this constant negativity helps no-one.

  9. Alasdair Angus Macdonald says:

    Hear! Hear!, Sandy.

  10. Rev. Stuart Campbell says:

    “Well we have never heard of a strategy never mind a GRAND strategy”

    Fuck off, Terry. You might not agree with them but I’ve clearly laid out two approaches that I believe the SNP should take.

  11. Rev. Stuart Campbell says:

    “You are in danger of turning into that grumpy old geezer in the pub that everyone tries to avoid. C’mon Stu – you have done a fantastic job for Indy, but this constant negativity helps no-one.”

    Sigh. I can’t tell you how dismaying, on multiple levels, it is to have Wings readers turning into fucking Rangers fans in 2011 going “LA LA LA EVERYTHING IS FINE JUST STOP POINTING AT THE GIANT FIRE BECAUSE IF WE IGNORE IT IT’LL GO AWAY”

  12. Muscleguy says:


    Oh give it a rest. Firstly without the Greens there is no majority for independence in the Parliament. Secondly twitter is replete with people saying they are resigning their membership over GRA and the election of TRA’s to women’s positions in the party.

    I am not and have never been a member of a political party, this is the first time I wished I was, so I could resign over this. Which is btw why I have never joined a party, it shorcuts the inevitable break over a matter of principle.

    You may be the sort of person happy to ignore your principles for poitical expediency, or maybe you don’t have many so it doesn’t arise, I don’t know. But you don’t get to tell those of us who have principles and who exercise them who we have to cleave to or TINA when there very clearly is.

    Like how the vital contribution of RIC in indyref 1 was airbrushed out by The Party when they came to write the history of it. Without RIC there would have been no Yes City here in Dundee or in Glasgow because the SNP then had no presence in the schemes.

    One of our leaders tell of the time early in the campaign when he was pursued down a close by a junkie. Turned out the guy just wanted voter registration forms for himself and his girlfriend. Yes Scotland would never have been in that close.

    I tramped some of those and chapped the doors both by myself and with a colleague. We were the only people chapping those doors and the people within greeted us warmly.

    That a lot of those people subsequently joined the SNP and voted SNP doesn’t mean the SNP owns their votes. That is the attitude SLAB used to hold about those folk. Shame on you.

  13. gus1940 says:

    Why is there no Debate Night on the week of the SNP Conference?

  14. Rev. Stuart Campbell says:

    “Given that Nicola said the question is not what will the SNP do if a Section 30 is not granted, but what right does Westminster have to refuse it, then I agree that she clearly intents to go to court over the matter.”

    Westminster refused Section 30 in 2017. Why didn’t she go to court then? It’d have been sorted by now and we’d either know where we stood or we’d have the clout to make credible fucking “demands” that actually meant something. If she goes to court now we’ll be lucky if it’s decided by 2022.

  15. John H. says:

    Wings in turmoil. Job done.

  16. Give it a rest.
    Yesterday’s speech by the First Minister of Scotland was more than demand/request a second independence referendum, despite Andrew Kerr John Curtice and Toodle Oo the Noo Taylor(who really needs his close friends to have a word with him about his weight before it’s too late; he is three times the size of Derek McKay) attempting to ‘talk over’ the quite incredible gathering.
    Curtice was clearly rattled by the power of Sturgeon’s address to the Nation.

    Pensions, child care, Trident, the cuts to the taxes of the rich at the expense to the cuts to pensions, WASPI, condemnation of the Spanish Far Right Government, UCS, the two child cap, the R@pe Clause, our NHS, Brexit against our will, and so much more.
    I’m done with this site, Stu.
    You have lost it completely.
    Nicola Sturgeon is far and away the most competent basically honest politician in the UK at the moment.
    To argue otherwise is deeply puzzling and sinister.

  17. Neil Mackenzie says:

    The International Law:

    People, based on respect for the principle of equal rights and fair equality of opportunity, have the right to freely choose their sovereignty and international political status with no interference.

    If anyone wants to go look that up, please do. It’s there and it seems to me that there’s no getting around it. Getting the powers needed to hold our referendum (Section 30 order) is a matter of requisition rather than request so this tweet that you’re ridiculing is actually perfectly sensible.

    I’ve said, before, that the Section 30 order isn’t “permission”, it is only protocol and it’s compulsory.

  18. mike cassidy says:

    I like this site because its run by the grumpy old geezer in the pub.

  19. sassenach says:

    John H. says:
    16 October, 2019 at 9:58 am
    Wings in turmoil. Job done.

    Yes, very true and we need to ask WHY! Well done, Rev.

  20. mike cassidy says:

    Neil Mackenzie 10.03

    How’s that international law working out for the people of Catalonia?

  21. Rev. Stuart Campbell says:

    “Curtice was clearly rattled by the power of Sturgeon’s address to the Nation.”


  22. One_Scot says:

    Lol, you know what I find really funny, (not funny ha ha obviously), I have wanted Scotland to be Independent since I was about eleven years old, forty years ago, and now I have reached a point in my life where I am closer to my dream than I have ever been to the point I can almost touch it, and yet somehow it feels as far away as it ever has.

    Go figure.

  23. Rev. Stuart Campbell says:

    “How’s that international law working out for the people of Catalonia?”

    It’s just *staggering* that people can sit and watch events in Catalonia and still blindly punt the fantasy that the “international community” will rush to Scotland’s aid. As far as the international community is concerned we just HAD a referendum and we voted No. We made our bed.

  24. Rev. Stuart Campbell says:

    “and now I have reached a point in my life where I am closer to my dream than I have ever been to the point I can almost touch it, and yet somehow it feels as far away as it ever has”

    Yup 🙁

  25. manandboy says:

    Meanwhile, elsewhere, questions are being asked about the £billions being offered to the DUP by Johnson apparently to get them to accept staying in the EU customs zone, with a border down the middle of the Irish Sea.

    The DUP is the political arm of the UDA, and people are wondering where the £billion(s) bribe is going?

  26. manandboy says:

    Wings in a turmoil. I enjoy a good turmoil. Milk with no sugar, please.

  27. James F. McIntosh says:

    I do not think Westminster refused permission for ref. 2 in 2017 as the wording was. now is not the time,
    implying or lieing that there may be a time in the future when the time is right.

  28. Lenny Hartley says:

    Stu, as per your post the other day, think in the next poll you should ask the question of people putting their faith in the SNP respecting their triple mandate and get Indyref2 before 2021 are the same people who believe in invisible friends.
    And as for those that think the International community will come riding to our rescue, I have one word Catalonia. Spanish “Riot” Police were firing rubber bulkets at Catalonian Emergency services last night. Where is International law now?

  29. Astonished says:

    I was at conference and frankly the speech did exactly what it should have. It was a terrific speech.

    We will have a referendum next year and if we don’t then their will be a new leader of the SNP. I think Nicola has made plain her campaign strategy. And I for one am more than happy with this.

    If westminister opposes indyref2 then it must be aware of the post independence consequences. As must the britnat politicians in Scotland.

    Regarding the trans issue. It is promoted by a tiny minority and relies on folk not understanding the consequences of self ID. In a normal country with a normal media the proponents would have to explain their position to the public.

    In an independent Scotland a party proposing self id would lose. Simple as that.

  30. Sinky says:

    Nicola Sturgeon is playing a blinder over Indy Ref and to win we must get the more conservative (with a small c) voters and some moderate Tories to back self government. The most difficult demographic is the oldies and English born residents.

    The trans twitter storm is irrelevant to 99% of the population. Some folk should suspend their egos and personal hobby horses while concentrating on the bigger prize then sort out other issues.

    O/T Stephen Jardine controlled the BBC GMS debate on Indy Ref in a very fair manner. Call Kaye please note.

    Under Boris latest EU plan, Northern Ireland will have an unfair trading advantage over businesses in Scotland including our fishermen and farmers whom the Tories claim to represent. They are expendable just as the Tories said when the UK negotiated to join the EU in 1973.

  31. Lochranza says:

    “Well we have never heard of a strategy never mind a GRAND strategy”

    Fuck off, Terry. You might not agree with them but I’ve clearly laid out two approaches that I believe the SNP should take.

    So instead of writing an article actually framing those ideas in a positive and coherent manner its the usual foul mouth swearing and another rant against a female politician. What a perfect response from a politically savvy man courting votes in a couple of years time eh? I’m sure thats added on thousands to your tally.

    You’ve become an embarrassment to the independence movement Stu. Step away from the keyboard, go on a long holiday and then come back if and when you have something positive or helpful to say. I too am done with this site, and the years I’ve contributed financially to your work has come to an end. All very sad.

  32. Jim Thomson says:

    The only thing I can see that is likely to affect the SG’s timetabling of any referendum might be the “Referendums (Scotland) Bill” that can be found here:

    I’ve not read it yet, so have no idea if there’s anything proposed within it that that could shorten the timescales.

    If we rely on the Westminster lot then, certainly, there isn’t a snowball’s chance in hell of getting it done during 2020.

  33. Lenny Hartley says:

    Lochranza, obviously you dont read wings often or you would have seen several well positive and coherent articles on how Stu thinks the SNP should have moved in the last few years. I must have missed the “another rant against a female politician bit” can you advise where it is?
    Dont bother answering if your from Lochranza you should know me you and can tell me next time we meet.

  34. manandboy says:

    Enable is a brilliant racehorse, twice a winner of the ‘Arc’ and odds on favourite to win this year’s race. But rain in the days before the race, made the ground ‘sticky’, and Enable was beaten by a horse with greater stamina, better suited to the sticky conditions. Had conditions underfoot been drier, Enable would have won and her many fans would not have been disappointed.

    The SNP is the right horse for the Independence race, make no mistake. But the ground is very sticky, due to the presence and influence of an extremist anti-EU and anti-democratic Tory Government, which obviously makes things harder, as with Enable.

    Put your money on the SNP to win Independence.

    Sometimes winning ugly is the only option.

  35. defo says:

    Being the logical type, i find the stoic outlook helps save ones sanity.
    What might, could, or should have been is irrelevant to our present and future.

    What the gradualist strategy has undoubtedly delivered, is a state of affairs where Scotland & England are effectively separate countries, on very different trajectories.
    It has been a spectacular success.

    Now is the time to reap that harvest. We have gone through the Brexit charade, job done. The upcoming GE will be fought on the Indy issue, no doubt whatsoever.

    If the SNP fail to deliver Indyref2 in a years time, then that’s the time for despair.

    Chin up Stuart, you’re a real asset to the cause.
    When was the last time you had a proper holiday?

  36. dadsarmy says:

    The SNP conference is over so it can’t be influenced any more.

  37. HandandShrimp says:

    Had a listen to a chunk of the phone in thing on radio shortbread on another referendum this morning. It wasn’t Kaye and it wasn’t too bad. Those against were heavily recycling Better Together mantras and I can’t say I was overly vexed by it. The nonsense about it being divisive recurrences few times. I’m beginning to think the division No voters feel is actually in their own souls as they argue against their own country.

  38. Breeks says:

    Astonished says:
    16 October, 2019 at 10:30 am

    I was at conference and frankly the speech did exactly what it should have. It was a terrific speech.

    We will have a referendum next year and if we don’t then their will be a new leader of the SNP. I think Nicola has made plain her campaign strategy. And I for one am more than happy with this.

    And why will Westminster respect any vote in Scotland 2020, when overruling a Scottish “sovereign” mandate was such child’s pay in 2019?

    Don’t you dare tell me “Because the people are sovereign “.

  39. fillofficer says:

    i get it, rev
    i’m in the snp
    i can see how it looks like they’ve dithered for the last 3 yrs
    but them tories have been thwarting them all this time
    & as you rightly pointed out yesterday, we are out of time.
    great strategy by them, poor performance by us.
    the fact that the polls are only 50/50 reflects the lacklustre way scotgov has dealt with things
    no fire in belly, too nicey nice
    give us hope joanna

  40. Ian McCubbin says:

    Its way more than that. She is using language which is shown that a section 30 gets us nothing. There will be a different strategy depending on what UK gov comes back with.
    Either way I believe we will be independent before the next Holyrood elections.

  41. Auld Rock says:

    Muscleguy, please when using abbreviations like GRA please remember that there are old codgers like me that don’t have a clue what they mean. Abbreviations are fine if the first use has been in the full form e.g. Member of Parliament (MP).

    Thank you.

  42. Certain section of Yes movement says:

    Because there wasn’t a legal precedent in 2017 for Scotland’s highest court to challenge Westminster. Fucking moron.

  43. IheartScitland says:

    ‘So instead of writing an article actually framing those ideas in a positive and coherent manner its the usual foul mouth swearing and another rant against a female politician’
    The article is positive…it shows SNP inaction. Positively. The article is correct.Instead of’playing the man’ why not play the ball?
    As to swearing…every Scottish cunt does it…just..not you?

  44. manandboy says:

    I’ve just remembered that Mundell is gone, and Davidson is also gone. Cheered me up that did.

    And the Brexit ‘avalanche’ is still tearing through England and Westminster, with still no sign of stopping. Another reason to be cheerful.

    It’s not such a bad day after all.

  45. schrodingers cat says:

    Westminster refused Section 30 in 2017. Why didn’t she go to court then?

    because before the 4 week period for westminster to reply officially, treeza called a ge where the snp went backwards. (38%) nicola took the s30 off the table at that point. no official request, no official refusal ergo no grounds for a legal challenge. (cf ineos legal challenge to sg fracking ban)

    rightly so, the voters i canvased were more concerned about brexit

    timing is crucial. when the s30 request is made again, it will be after the coming ge, where, hopefully, our existing mandate for indyref2 will be reaffirmed.

    if it is refused officially, a legal challenge will be mounted

  46. Proud Cybernat says:

    SNP has made promises to its voters and to the people of Scotland. Someone has to hold its feet to the fire. That is all I see that Wings is doing – asking legitimate questions. And if that makes things awkward for the SNP then good as far as I’m concerned because I want to see movement. Well, we saw that yesterday with the FM’s speech. Rev Stu has merely gone to the next stage and is asking (paraphrasing), “Okay – so how do you think WM will react when you DEMAND S30?”

    WM won’t outright deny the S30 demand, they fob it off with “Once in ageneration, now is not the time” keech. And that is why it will almost certainly end up in court. A place that Rev Stu has been advocating it should have been years ago, to get this issue of IndyRef legitimacy settled years ago so that, when the time came, we were good to go.

    Stop giving him a hard time for simply holding SNP feet to the fire.

  47. laukat says:

    If you haven’t watched “Spotlight on the Troubles: A Secret History” I would thoroughly recommend it. Its a very revealing look back at the troubles in Northern Ireland and the sort of TV programme that you could only dream BBC Scotland could do. I was at school during the 80’s so remember alot of the main incidents but the series shows some incidents that had clearly being covered up as part of a UK government propoganda scheme. (i.e. first time I’d seen that the Queen had been attacked visiting N Ireland)

    Whilst most of it has little relevenace to Scotland there was a part in one episode where they talk about the Brittish Security services use of agents within the IRA. At first they put them in there to try to limit the damage of attacks but soon realised they were of more value if they got them in place to influence strategic thinking in the IRA and move them away from violence and towards peace.

    Whats happening in Scotland is nowhere near what Nothern Ireland is or was but that part of the documentary made me think how important the people around the leadership is.

    To my mind the SNP leadership has moved over the years from being a radical pro-independence organisation to a party seeking electoral success whilst trying to create a broad base support for Independence. However in an attempt to pursue a broader base they are in danger of alienating the original base by putting people in strategic posts within the party who are pursuing their pet policies. ( Just to be clear – these people are not security service operatives)

    The orginal base of relatively radical pro-independence are key to the party’s fortunes. They are the most likely to get the vote out but also potentially the most likely to create another organisation with a more singular vision on how to achieve Independence and I suspect that if by the end of 2020 no real progress is made on an Indyref that we won’t be talking about a Wings party for the regional vote but a new Indpendence party challenging the SNP at all elections.

    This might be accelerated depending on the outcome of the Salmond trial. Should Salmond be found not guilty and return to the political scene he will take a lot of the original pro-indy with him. In that scenario the SNP would need to find a place for him in the party or risk him forming a new party that could rival the SNP.

  48. aldo_macb says:

    Every Wings story is now an SNP bad story. I’m off to read Wee Ginger Dug and Scot Goes Pop.

  49. dakk says:

    The legislation going through the Scottish Parliament at the moment is to allow a referendum to take place in the absence of a Section 30 is it not?

    The right to use council properties to facilitate the vote.

    So as I see it,the Scottish gov intend to have an indy ref regardless of what Westminster says.

    As for all the legal resistance to Brexit,I doubt anything the SNP do on that front will effect the final outcome.

    As usual it will be what the English party’s MPs decide which
    will carry the day.

    What the legal posturing may do is win over an extra few percent who we will need to win an insured.

    At least that is what I am hoping.

  50. Capella says:

    Labour are reliable. Joanna Cherry is to propose revoking article 50 as a failsafe in a HoC vote to be held tonight. Labour have been ordered to abstain. The Bain principle in action.

    So, you see, even if the SNP does try hard to STOP BREXIT we can rely on the Westminster parties to “stymie” their efforts. I’m sure that has been factored in.

  51. ScotsRenewables says:

    This site has become a depressing repository for one bitter man’s personal fears and disillusionment. It’s a tragedy.

    The Wings party is irrelevant until/unless it becomes obvious that the mandate will not be used before the 2021 Holyrood elections. That’s a year away.

    The Self ID issue is worrying, but it will affect an infinitesimal small percentage of us. It has sensibly been kicked into the long grass by the SNP. Why Stu can’t do the same and leave it alone until later is beyond me. The public are blissfully unaware, yet this site is determined to rub rheir faces in it and damage the party. For once I for one am glad that the MSM studiously ignore Wings.

    Hopefully this is just a blip and when the referendum does come Stu pulls himself together and gets the WBBs out.

    If not Wings, then who?

  52. Street Andrew says:

    Stu, your pants are in a wad.

    Have break. Visit the Highlands for a few days. And get some perspective back.

    I’m having one – Wings standing order cancelled I’ll drink it instead. It’ll do me more good.

  53. Proud Cybernat says:

    The S30 is essentially ensuring that both sides will accept the result of the IndyRef. Therefore, I see no reason why S30 cannot be sought AFTER THE FACT i.e. after a YES win in indyref2. Scotgov are pushing through Referendum Bill in HR that will allow ScotGov to hold a national referendum in Scotland on any issue, including independence.

    Being advisory then the IndyRef is within HR competence and does not impinge on WM reserved constitutional matters. Ergo, ScotGov can hold a legal IndyRef. If BritNats boycott it then tough – it’s a legal referendum. If NO win then it’s likely that WM will happily sign the S30 (after the fact), accepting the result. If YES win, then S30 request will undoubtedly end up in court.

    Bottom line is – S30 need not be given BEFORE the IndyRef. It can be sought after the fact.

  54. schrodingers cat says:

    the real story this morning isnt this sites fixation with chicks with dicks but bojo’s sudden realisation that a bad deal is better than no deal….. who knew eh?

    not sure of the actual details but it looks like treeza’s deal rev2

    if WM rejects it……an extension to the leave date will follow and a subsequent ge

    if WM accepts it……we leave on the 31st and a subsequent ge

    either of these outcomes will have the brexiteers in tears and any talk of a pact between the tories and the brexit party will evapourate.

    bojos chances of winning an overall majority in the ge just took a big hit 🙂

    good, bojo might yet agree to a s30 request from nicola, if only to get rid of us pesky scots 🙂

  55. dakk says:

    Meant indyref not insured.

  56. manandboy says:

    Though treated like a Colony, Scotland is in fact not a Colony, but ‘in Union’.

    It’s just that England has chosen to forget that. Rather like a married man who thinks and acts like his wife is an employee of his.

    Any court will quickly put him in his proper place.

    England knows the law. They just act as if they didn’t in the hope Scotland won’t make a fuss.

    Scotland needs to break free from its acquired docility and forelock tugging deference to ‘our Colonial Masters’.

    However, the habits of a lifetime are often very hard to change. That’ll be true as well for some in the SNP, though perhaps less so in the post 2014 influx of new members.

    In thirty years time, after many years of Independence, those who are still here will look back with a smile and wonder what the fuss on Wings back then was all about.

    Then again, maybe not. I’ll get ma hat’n coat.

  57. Dr Jim says:

    The referendum bill will make it’s way through Holyrood and a date for the Independence referendum will be announced in the press and on TV and Nicola Sturgeon will dare whoever is in charge at Westminster to admit to dictatorship by refusing an official Scottish government demand for the transfer of power

    Let’s see whether Westminster dare to admit that’s what they are, then the world just saw it as the legal case already organised and ready lands in court and Westminster loses, do they take the chance, I don’t think so

    While at the same time the actual people of Ireland (not the DUP who don’t represent them) remind England exactly who they are

    The fight won’t just be on the Scotland front

  58. Just to say I agree with what you say Stu., but as they say the truth hurts ???

  59. Proud Cybernat says:

    The EU wants Scotland inside the bloc. No question. On that premise I can see a situation arising whereby UK is trying to secure a future trade deal with EU and EU telling WM that it must respect Scotland’s democratic right to a referendum. Grant S30 or trade talks will stall. They had Ireland’s back. If they really want Scotland in the bloc, they’ll have our back too.

  60. Bradford Millar says:

    as part of the vow did they not promise that we will get the right to hold referendums in Holyrood …. this document was signed by David Cameron, Ed Miliband and Menzies Campbell … this could be the grounds to demand a referendum

  61. Daisy Walker says:

    Got the SNP begging letter today, from Mr Blackford…

    ‘Increasing SNP representation at Westminster will truly embolden our demands for another independence referendum. We can wash away the resistance to giving people a second vote.’

    Not much in the way of ‘Scotland will not be taken out the EU against its will’ anymore.

    But hey, lets – ’embolden their demands’.

    Poor stuff. No more money from me. And given a credible alternative – they will no longer get my vote in any election. 32 years of always voting for them.

    And for those who keep saying and thinking the GRA only affects a tiny minority of people, so who needs to know. Actually the consequences of the amendments mean it impacts of 52% of the population. Many of whom are naturally conservative (with a small c) in their voting, but once they make up their minds they don’t discuss it.

    The SNP have been well and truly spiked. Same MO as the labour party. And unfortunately plenty of yessers – who should have known better – happy to make it easy for them.

    Thank goodness for Wings. Again.

    Oh for those thinking a GE is just round the corner – why. The tories will win. And they don’t need to, they are already in power. They want a No Deal Brexit (save the tax havens, remember) = chaos = state of emergency = close down Holyrood. And in this, all the establishment WM parties are in agreement – not to help the SNP ever!

  62. Bradford Millar says:

    if Blo Jo doesn’t deliver Brexit by October 31 it’s curtains for him and the Tory Party and he will be replaced by Farage and the Brexit party …. that is the reality we are facing

  63. Phronesis says:

    ‘There can be no keener revelation of a society’s soul than the way in which it treats its children’
    Nelson Mandela

    Scotland’s soul;

    The list is not exhaustive. Layers and layers of strategic, independent thinking- the soul of an independent Scotland.

  64. Ian Brotherhood says:

    The ‘woke’ (horrible word, hate using it, but what’s an alternative?) brigade wouldn’t be in the slightest bit interested in the SNP if independence wasn’t imminent.

    Not much a silver lining, but it’s something…


  65. schrodingers cat says:

    Bradford Millar says:
    16 October, 2019 at 12:12 pm
    if Blo Jo doesn’t deliver Brexit by October 31 it’s curtains for him and the Tory Party and he will be replaced by Farage and the Brexit party …. that is the reality we are facing

    no, the reality is, in a fptp election is bojo will shed votes to the bxp, that doesnt mean the bxp will win many or any seats, it means less tory mps will be elected, more libdem and labour

  66. Helen Yates says:

    It beggars belief that when we are as close as we are now and have been for at least two years it seems the very people we have put our trust in to deliver Indy are the very ones who are going to destroy the best chance we will ever have of becoming Independent. I listened to Nicolas speech 3 times and the part that confused me the most was when she said, in this upcoming election vote SNP and I will demand a section 30 before the end of the year but then then said if refused she will use the election on 2021 as a direct road to Indy, in other words a vote for SNP then will be taken as a vote for Independence, is it just me that wonders why she can’t do that very thing in the upcoming election, it’s always a carrot being dangled and I for one won’t fall for it again and let’s not get started on the absolute shambles of this gender ID bloody farce. so sickened and disappointed right now not to mention heartbroken.

  67. Ghillie says:

    In the kindest tone I can possibly muster,

    What the fuck is wrong with you Stuart?

    Who pinched your scone?

    Love and peace dear boy.

  68. Maolbeatha says:

    Restless agitated people.
    Expecting action to be taken, seeing circumstances changing around them yet no apparent moves made to take advantage of them.
    Some seek to take advantage for their own ideological gain, to exploit gaps.
    Fear of bad PR may create a weak spot.

    “This far and no further!” But only if it does not cause some offence, either real or contrived.
    No matter, the word Offended is justification enough it seems.
    Fear of looking bad, being portrayed as bad is a political parties kryptonite, but fear is paralysing.

    Brexit, nobody can say for sure what will happen, guesses, estimates though well informed are still not certainties.

    Indy2 the same, nothing is certain or decided, guesses, estimates though well informed are still not certainty.

    Looking for answers to questions not asked, we create our own answers, probable becomes certain, becomes “fact”.

    Restless energy without direction or purpose is not constructive, it is corrosive, it needs focus.

    Talk of leaving SNP because the direction is not as an individual desires, is not unexpected.
    I too am considering it due to the self ID problem. But I will wait a while and see what happens.
    One persons forecast of the future consequences of an action may not be correct, of course they may well be correct.
    I will wait and see.
    No great consequence for one to leave a party of many. It wont affect my indy vote when it comes, if it comes.

    The SNP are still the ONLY party in any position to facilitate, organise and carry out an Independence campaign.

    Online answer seekers seem to be gathering around the idea that the course to Indyref2 is legal.
    Westminster refuses indy 2, it goes some legal route and it happens?
    Looking for answers, and an answer is found? Is it plausible? Realistic?
    I cannot say.
    For what its worth it feels like there is a lot of energy misdirected right now, it needs a focus.
    The SNP are the only lens that can focus that energy right now.

    No party stays in power forever, Bureaucracy seems to diminish innovation, vitality focus on a clear goal, a worthwhile ideological target may become lost in the mundane.

    No party stays in power forever, if the SNP cannot provide the pathway to Independence then who?
    I cannot see anyone else. Can you?

  69. desimond says:

    The Eye of the Tiger

    Im back thinking on Rocky3

    Rocky has been called out by Clubber Lang and he wants to fight him…Mickey the trainer says “No way!”…Rocky demands it “Im the champ I can take him!” but Mickey rants and rants and eventually admits “You cant fight him..he will kill you in 3 rounds!”

    Rocky starts to worry he’s been in fixed fights.

    Mickey says “No, you won them fair but they were hand picked.”
    Mickey concludes “You was hard, and you was nasty but the worst thing happened to got civilised!”

    ( classic transcript here: )

    Maybe this is when SNP finally shake off their civilised cape or comfort?

    The fight for protecting UK from Brexit is done, now its personal…

    Win Rocky…win..(or we disappear into the shadows for a few generations at very least if not forever.)

  70. Bob Mack says:

    we both know Stu there will be no referendum next year.Wel! not at least the say Nivola wants to do it. She is not even going to demand till around Xmas.

    It wil! be denied indefinitely in one way or other The process if agreed will take over a year to conclude. Then campaigning etc.

    We are more into 2021 by a good bit even if we get a section 30.

    Yes Breeks I know, but this is what Nicola is proposing.

    Where do we go from here Stu? There must be some way forward,
    and tbats all that really matters now.

  71. Tam the Bam. says:

    Buzzfeed Tweeting DUP are split 7-3 IN FAVOUR of new Customs arrangement/Consent with Nigel Dodds and Sammy Wilson 2 of the 3 against.

  72. Bob Mack says:


    Bezutifully put,and no there is no other vehicle bar the SNP for our goal

  73. Rev. Stuart Campbell says:

    “We will have a referendum next year”

    We really really won’t, y’know. Sorry and everything. But it’s not happening. There isn’t time.

  74. Rev. Stuart Campbell says:

    “So instead of writing an article actually framing those ideas in a positive and coherent manner”

    I’ve written several. That’s what “I’ve clearly laid out” means.

    “I too am done with this site”

    Yeah you are.

  75. Rev. Stuart Campbell says:

    “The ‘woke’ (horrible word, hate using it, but what’s an alternative?) brigade wouldn’t be in the slightest bit interested in the SNP if independence wasn’t imminent.”

    How do you figure that? For most of their purposes it’s more than enough for the SNP to be in power in a devolved Parliament. They don’t give a shit about independence or they wouldn’t be sabotaging it so much.

  76. Colin Alexander says:

    Joanna Cherry: “There has to be a democratic event, and I choose those words wisely, it doesn’t have to necessarily be a referendum, it could be something else, like a general election.

    “But there has to be a democratic event. In the meantime we will do what we have always done as SNP politicians and push for more powers for Holyrood.”

    The SNP are not shy of court action.

    Where is the court action to uphold and defend Scotland’s sovereignty regarding the right to hold referendums on dissolving the Union and stopping SCexit?

  77. Proud Cybernat says:

    “They don’t give a shit about independence or they wouldn’t be sabotaging it so much.”

    Nope. Have to disagree with that, Rev.

    Tell me – have ‘they’ nobbled you?

  78. Bob Mack says:

    @Proud Cybernat,

    Ill just say bye bye just now because I think you’ll be leaving shortly.

  79. Stuart MacKay says:

    I find the calls to “fall into line” either at conference with the motion on Plan B or here with people asking Stu to tone it down, rather interesting. To what end?

    Everybody is pushing for independence. It’s just that some want to get there will a little more urgency than others.

    Is the message really a sign of a lack of confidence that things are going to go the way we want?

    Surely the message should be that all guns need to point in this direction, not that some should be silenced.

  80. Eckle Fechan says:

    Never judge a woman until you’ve stood in her [high heeled] shoes.

  81. Ian Brotherhood says:

    @Rev Stu (12.39) –

    ‘How do you figure that?’

    Let me tweak what I wrote –

    “The ‘woke’ (horrible word, hate using it, but what’s an alternative?) brigade wouldn’t be in the slightest bit interested in the SNP if they felt that independence wasn’t imminent.”

    Agree with the gist of your reply, although it may be worth highlighting: ‘For most of their purposes it’s more than enough for the SNP to be in power in a devolved Parliament.’

    Most? Have to wonder how many of them know what their purposes are beyond getting attention and feeling excited that they’re affecting mainstream discourse. If the purposes were so easy to explain then the likes of Mhairi(s) Hunter & Black wouldn’t have made such a honking mess of it.

    What’s the betting that a hefty % of the loudest zealots don’t know what ‘TERF’ stands for even as they’re ordering their pastel-coloured axes on E-Bay?

  82. Proud Cybernat says:

    SNP are playing a cagey game – they have to. Scotland voted against Brexit (twice) so SNP are obligated to fight against Brexit which is the paramount question across UK right now as it affects everything, even our eventual independence. So I have no problem with SNP doing that. And because of that the polls have shifted in our way – we’re now 50% at least.

    SNP are presently pushing Referendum Bill thru HR to enable ScotGov to hold IndyRef (with or without S30). That doesn’t look to me the actions of a party not interested in winning us our right to have a independence referendum but rather a party that DOES WANT independence.

    Sure – there may be issues with timing. Sure, it may end up in court. So the fuck what! It’s the direction of travel here that’s important and I see that direction leading, inexorably, towards a legal IndyRef2. Will it happen within the FM’s timetable? Who knows? It might if FM just GOES FOR IT regardless of Brexit, regardless of GE. People in Scotland are sick of Brexit and want things back as close to the way they were before this clusterfuck began. That means indy and rejoining the EU.

    Furthermore, EU will demand that the process be above reproach which basically means agreed with WM vis-a-vis the Edinburgh Agreement. We can’t get away from that. S30 will ahve to be asked for but if WM refuse then we can go ahead with IndyRef and sort out S30 after the fact.

    I see little to worry about. SNP Gov are putting all the necessary pieces in place to for us to have IndyRef2 and WIN it.

  83. Ghillie says:

    Oh there you are wee soul.

    You ok pet?

    Again, in the kindest tone possible, what the fuck is wrong with you Stuart?

    Who pinched your scone? You do know we will we have your back if need be.

    I know you are most comfortable when you are right, but sometimes you are wrong. That is not the end of the world.

    And for the last few weeks your focus of discontent has been disproportinate and I think, misplaced.

    Even you have to admit you do not have the legal background or the political insight of Nicola Sturgeon and team and that even you definitely do not have access to the information or to the ears within the corridors of power.

    For now, Stuart, you seem to be doing the job of the MSM.

    Or is that all part of a cunning plan?

    You know what sticks in my craw, is the support and delight from the less savoury characters btl and the loss of the truly good Indy minded folk now pushed away. ( With the exception of a small number of truly faithful and good friends to Wings)

    I’m going to go with cunning plan for now. Sorry if I’ve blown your cover.

    We have met, but I expect that is forgotten.

    Go well =)

    PS If I get blocked, this might be cherrio for now! Love you all =)

  84. Abulhaq says:

    Inevitably there will be a major confrontation between London and Edinburgh. London, whoever’s in charge, will say no to such a demand. By such a refusal we move into Catalan mode. Are members of the SNP ready for martyrdom? For that is truly coming for aw that.
    Scotland cannot escape the ‘rough wooing’ that will certainly result.
    The English bulldog is not going to surrender meekly. There is just too much ‘amour propre’ at stake in these edgy times.

  85. kapelmeister says:

    Proud Cybernat@1:06

    Excellent post. Sober and rational, with everything in perspective.

  86. Dr Jim says:

    Scotland is a country in a Union, Catalonia is a region in a country

  87. Colin Alexander says:


    If you win your appeal, could I suggest you pull the rug from under the SNP’s feet by taking the Scottish sovereignty issue to court on behalf of the people of Scotland?

    Sovereignty as does SCexit require the consent of the people of Scotland

    OR more importantly

    What’s the legal methods of dissolving the Union, eg can Scotland do it unilaterally by exericising sovereignty? and How does Scotland exercise sovereignty?

  88. Nana says:


    BREAKING: two senior EU sources say the main stumbling block to a deal has been removed with the DUP accepting the latest proposals on consent… Optimism a deal can now be done…

  89. Ghillie says:

    Oh boy Stuart, I do hope that you have the very good sense not to be taken in by the SIU and other moles here.

  90. ahundredthidiot says:

    I am happy to take this as the starting gun and see the deadline to move to stage 2 (whatever that is….possibly announcing a date and taking on the legal challenge).

    But it is now time to get our skates on and we do need an ace up our sleeve to make stage 2 a reality. We also need a big voice from the EU to pipe up as soon as Brexit is ‘done’.

    I am unconvinced there isn’t enough time to have indyref2 tail end of 2020 and my worry is any later, then we’re done for, beat, back to moaning about things and not actually doing anything about it.

  91. Kenny J says:

    Muscleguy says:
    16 October, 2019 at 9:53 am

    “Like how the vital contribution of RIC in indyref 1 was airbrushed out by The Party when they came to write the history of it. Without RIC there would have been no Yes City here in Dundee or in Glasgow because the SNP then had no presence in the schemes.”

    I’ll have to point out a bit of a fallacy in this, which I have seen you post a few times before over the years since 2014.
    In my neck of the woods, W. Glasgow, RIC turned out one night, of course it was at night and dark and RiC’s numbers may have been around 15. We, the SNP, had to be the lead for the teams since the RICers did’nt know their way about.
    We had to provide leaflets, flyers, luckily haveing some in the cars. The main problem is all flats are controlled entry, so press buzzer for flat 0/1, no answer, press for 0/2 etc. It being dark, not a lot of answers. Then explain,if you get an reply, on the intercom, who you are. A guddle. In short, that was the RIC presence we saw, one night. NOT that I’m decrying RIC. Glasgow’s a big place. I’ve spoken to Jonathan a couple of times since. What I’m saying is that I think you overestimate their effect, here anyway.
    For most of the time I was, and I’m not blowing my ain trumpet, it’s just the way it was, YES Drumchapel, and SNP Drum when the branch was elsewhere till a wee group coalesced. We all had a part to play. Cheers.

  92. Sharny Dubs says:

    Just to say Stu, keep on keeping on! We need the voice of sanity and no one, not even (and maybe particularly) the SNP should be above criticism.
    On the gender issue my thoughts for what they are worth.
    MRA’s (men’s rites activists) are on the rise and not without reason. The more extreme side of toxic feminism who paint gender issues as an “us and them” (men v women) war have gone to far. Just witness the rise of the likes of Karen Straughan, Janis Flamengo, Bettina Arendt and the honey badgers on utube, as well as documentaries such as “the red pill”.

    Issues such as:
    Sanctuaries for male victims of domestic abuse. (Which feminists still try to deny)
    The high proportion of male suicides (6 out of 8 suicides are men) frequently after divorces.
    The lack of funding for prostate cancer and other men’s medical issues while cervical and breast cancer get priority even though they are less common.
    The gender bias in divorce courts, i.e. men almost never get custody of children.
    The high rate of paternity fraud.
    The “me too” movement where all women should be believed no matter what.
    Genital mutilation of children, we rightly fight against female mutilation while male mutilation is performed routinely with no comment.

    On and on it goes.
    So whether we like it or not it’s coming.
    It is a divisive issue and especially for the SNP due to the prominence of feminist ideology within the party and within the Greens who the SNP rely on for their majority.

    IMHO the trans / safe place issue has been deliberately brought to the SNP agenda in order to create a divide which it seems to have achieved, as well as causing WoS community some grief along the way. Win win for the bad guys. Feminist ideology would insist on trans recognition while the infringement of female safe places by chicks with dicks is clearly wrong on all levels.

    Divide and rule, now who was it perfected that art? Oh yes!
    We should be watching our backs and keep in mind, independence first, last and always.

    I’m probably get a world of pain now from the ladies so I guess it’s time for me to get my coat and hat.

    The dream will never die.

  93. Ghillie says:

    desimond @ 12.28 pm

    Quite like your reference to Rocky but so utterly disagree with anyone that says if Scotland does not win back Independence NOW that we have blown it for a long long time.


    I will continue to fight for Independence for Scotland until my dying breath, and so will my sons.

    So. How say all you Wingers?

  94. Proud Cybernat says:

    GRA? Independence FIRST.

    Women’s rights? Independence FIRST.

    Men’s rights? Independence FIRST.

    Labradoodle’s rights? Independence FIRST.


    Everything else will follow.

  95. Patrick Roden says:

    @ Stu,

    “Westminster refused Section 30 in 2017. Why didn’t she go to court then? “

    Did they really refuse in 2017?
    I thought the (so called refusal) was couched in tough language for the MSMs benefit, but in reality Theresa May was just saying ‘now is not the time’ rather than putting forward any formal refusal.

    Genuine question Stu,

    Can you say with certainty, that the Tories formally refused us the right to have a referendum, or did the SNP realize that Scots being told by the Tories what we could or couldn’t do, was a political ‘gift-horse’ that they didn’t want to ‘look in the mouth’, so allowed it to go on without much challenge?
    (because at the time we were still behind in the polls and the effects of Brexit weren’t yet scary enough).

  96. Bob Mack says:


    There we have the truth. Its missing those of like mind for you. Its not really all about the unpleasant facts the site brngs to your attention. The Rev must be nobbled becaus he is raising concerns that dont fit in with the pleasant social club of Wings.

    You just have to deal with that, rathef than change the messenger. He is not alone. Social media is ful! of unconvinced SNP supporters. Are they wrong too?

  97. Daisy Walker says:

    A mandate, a mandate, a mandate or 3
    That’s what ye need if ye’s want tae be free
    And just to be safe, lets make it 4
    And if that’s no enough we’ll keep asking for more

    56 seats in a house by the Thames
    Did bugger all good so lets make amends
    We’ll send 57 – some wimmen, some men
    And let them beg nicely, again and again.


    A mandate, a mandate, a mandate or 3
    That’s what ye need if ye’s want tae be free
    And just to be safe, lets make it 4
    And if that’s no enough we’ll keep asking for more

  98. Sharny Dubs says:

    Proud Cybernat well said!!

  99. Doug says:

    Party B demands pikes and pitchforks!

  100. Scozzie says:

    Well Rhiannon Spear, new Women’s Convener got herself off to a very telling start, re-tweeting Mhairi Black’s disastrous and notorious ‘don’t be Jeremy Hunts’ video encouraging us all to be more like Mhairi Black (eye roll)!

    So that’s us women told – shut up and budge over to make room for the woke ‘trans women are women’ anti science contingent. What a fucking mess the SNP has become. Bloody hell, Alec Salmond worked his entire career to get us within touching distance of independence and these woke nutters are dismantling it all from within to nothing more than a fucking student union fringe group. I never swear on my comments but the SNP have gone fucking rogue.

  101. desimond says:


    I appreciate your feeling, I am the same but I believe the writing is very much on the wall for Holyrood and Independence should the next General Election return a Tory Majority and/or the next Holyrood elections return a Unionist majority.

    This window is closing, we cannot, despite our hearfelt beliefs, know when the next window will arise but we can be sure of folk trying to ensure it never comes again

  102. Daisy Walker says:

    Mharie Mharie quite contrary
    How does your kit kat go
    Rub it in your gums with your fingers and your thumbs
    And keep it well away from your nose.

  103. ScotsRenewables says:

    Bob Mack says:
    16 October, 2019 at 1:41 pm

    You just have to deal with that, rathef than change the messenger. He is not alone. Social media is ful! of unconvinced SNP supporters. Are they wrong too?

    Social media is full of John Deeres and Fordson Majors. Anyone who imagines that more than 10% of the SNP ‘concern trolls’ wringing their hands and moaning are genuine Indy supporters is naive beyond belief.

    Get a grip, people . . . the number of ‘concerned’ independence supporters slagging off the SNP, the only vehicle that can deliver us independence, is going to increase proportionately with the nearness of our goal.

    Anyone who thinks the British state does not recognise the importance of social media in the forthcoming campaign is only fooling themselves.

    Stu, the amount of concern from long-term Wingers with the current tone of your postings should surely prompt a little self-searching? Meanwhile, new posters appear on a daily basis to agree with you. I wonder where they are all coming from?

    And if that’s me banned for offering well-meant opinions and advice so be it. Meanwhile, don’t forget that Nana’s Links are still appearing on a daily basis:

    (And please leeave some comments to show Nana you appreciate her efforts)

  104. Ghillie says:

    BM (whispers. Sweetheart, sorry but you are one of the less savoury voices btl here. I think you will find Stuart Campbell knows that full well as do Wingers all)

  105. dadsarmy says:

    83% of £8,000, that’s £1,260 needed, but extended another week.

    So basically there are 63 SNP MSPs, 35 MPs and 3 MEPs who benefit from all the pro-indy initiatives as most people still say the SNP are the main party of Independenece, and these radios, blogs all push the SNP come election time.

    Yet for the sakes of less than £13 each SNP politician, excluding councillors, this fundraiser might fail to reach its ANNUAL target while these politicians are sticking £60,000 a year into the bank, plus expenses.

    And there are other crowdfunders struggling.

    So come on SNP elected politicians, put your money where your mouth is and fund these pro-Indy causes. Help others to help you – and trust you.

  106. Rev. Stuart Campbell says:

    “Did they really refuse in 2017?
    I thought the (so called refusal) was couched in tough language for the MSMs benefit, but in reality Theresa May was just saying ‘now is not the time’ rather than putting forward any formal refusal.”

    “Now is not the time” is a refusal. It’s ALWAYS “now”. Unless the answer is “Now is not the time, but you can have it on the 12th of next month” or some other specified date, it just means “No”.

  107. Bob Mack says:

    Open offer to anyone.

    You want to come and meet me at home? Meet my neighbours, family, who are SNP voters. Lets put an end to this “agent”nonsense once and for all.

    I am an SNP voter with real issues with the direction the party is going. I. willing to prove it to you despite thinking you need psychiatric evaluation most of the time.

    Any takers. Tea, coffee name your poison (oops)o

  108. Rev. Stuart Campbell says:


    Everything else will follow.”


    What the SNP are doing now risks blowing independence. Women in particular are NOT willing to sacrifice their rights for independence. They will not vote for a party that’s going to throw their rights in the bin, and if the SNP don’t get enough votes as a result, they won’t be able to do anything to secure independence.

    And if you want to go and order a significant number of women to do something they don’t want to do, on the grounds that what YOU care about is more important and urgent than what THEY care about, I suggest you take a helmet.

  109. defo says:

    I would never ask you to betray a confidence, so I’m not asking for details, simply a yes or no.

    Did Eck say something?

    A reply would be very welcome, & not just by me I suspect.

    FWIW, I think he did, and I think I know exactly what it was.

  110. Gary says:

    @ daisy Walker 12.09

    100% correct daisy. I couldnt agree more!

  111. Terrycallachan says:

    Proud cybernat 1.40pm

    Independence first
    Oh I agree wholeheartedly with that

    WOS continually say “ they have said what approach the SNP should take “

    I think it’s clear to everyone that during the last three and a half years yes three and a half years , can’t believe we have been doing the brexit thing that long but anyway
    it’s clear that everyone has had to change their plan of action , several times , because the leader in Westminster has had to do exactly that change their plans

    For WOS to sing the same song throughout and then criticise the SNP in the final stages is in my humble opinion poor form

    SNP are all we have got
    Football analogy – it’s our only striker ,yes I know you think he’s crap but he’s scored goals for us often in the past , he might be settling in on his high wage but we are in the second half of the final

    We have no option but to go with what we have
    Please do not break the confidence of the team for the chance of saying “told you so “

  112. Rev. Stuart Campbell says:

    “Did Eck say something?”

    Alex Salmond is one of several people I’ve spoken to in recent months whose comments have all informed my current views.

  113. Gary says:

    Well said STU. You are the only one who seems to have actual insight into the dangers of Fucking up Independence by the SNP.
    As an SNP member and activist for 30 years, I view with disgut how they have been almost tamed by the comfort and trappings of the westminster system.
    Whatever happened to settle up not settle in! ?
    We used to criticise the Labour party for abandoning their red clydeside principles for a comfortable MPs salary. Never thought I would see the SNP replicate so much of that!

  114. Proud Cybernat says:

    “…if the SNP don’t get enough votes as a result, they won’t be able to do anything to secure independence.”

    SNP already have the votes. They’re the party in power right NOW and will be until May 2021 (at least). IndyRef to be held next year (all your caveats notwithstanding). Once we’re indy I don’t care who people vote for. If they don’t like SNP policies – fine, vote them out of office. And get prepared to pay a fortune for your meds, kids Uni education, elderly care etc, etc.

    Stay focused, Rev. Independence FIRST.

  115. Ghillie says:

    Daisy Walker @ 1.57 pm

    Did you mean to post that here?

    What on earth are you referencing?

  116. Proud Cybernat says:

    “Now is not the time” is a refusal.

    And as Salmond has said, “Democracy delayed is democracy denied.” Fine. We’ll see them in court. It was always heading there anyway.

  117. Bob Mack says:

    Stu I think you are wasting your breath. The level of “dim” is truly frightening. I have had easier tasks de_programming individuals from religious factions than you face on this site.

    Take their money and indulge them. Thats what they really want. Comforting facts rather than truth.

  118. Terrycallachan says:

    OH let’s call the whole Scottish independence thing off because some people think that reform of the gender recognition act 2004 is a bad idea

    Yes yes yes I know there’s been a worldwide consultation
    Yes yes yes I know there is to be further consultation and deliberation

    But let’s abandon Scottish independence because until the reform of the gender recognition act 2004 is complete in line with EU law we may as well get sidetracked with this subject

    Maybe when there are no important or controversial issues that the Scottish government have to deal with we can look again at a Scottish independence referendum

    But there are always important controversial issues the Scottish government have to deal with I hear you say

    Well that’s it then isn’t it

    We have british nationalists telling us we cannot have a Scottish independence referendum and now we have insiders working against the current planned Scottish independence referendum

    What’s the point ?

    Well , the point is , Scottish independence first it’s more important to people in Scotland than anything else ,there will be many many opportunities to review or amend the gender recognition act but far fewer Scottish independence referendums

    Don’t tell me the gender recognition act review will stop Scottish independence because most people in Scotland don’t even know what the gender recognition act is or when it was introduced into law
    The WOS poll asking people if they think it’s okay for people to change their place of birth or their gender or who their parents are on their birth certificate , good god what drivel that is, there’s no suggestion of that happening other than here

    Scottish independence first

  119. defo says:

    Thanks Stuart
    No wonder now why you’re scunnered then.

  120. Ghillie says:

    Whoops Collin @ 1.23 pm

    Slip of the pen.

    Gave yourself away there.

  121. Shug says:

    We must keep pushingand ignore the 77 brigade posters creating division in the ranks
    Snp is right and so is stu but either way we have to tick of the option s before it gets rough and it may
    There is the hope the engla ders believe their own propaganda and decide to wash their hands of us

  122. Bob Mack says:

    @Terry Callachan,

    I thought Independencd was about freedom. Whose though ? Are you truly suggesting that womens hard won rjghts just happen to be collateral damage to achieve freedom for everybody else.

    Rather Victorian Terry.

  123. desimond says:

    I know I wont be the only SNP member that lets the “other matters” ride on by whilst we await the Independence Campaign but its only natural for folk to get tired, after all as we go ever further down the Westminster rabbit hole, it gets a little harder to see the sunshine

    Maybe after Alex Salmonds William Wallace, we all thought Nicola was gonna stride forward and be our victor …but eventually it will take someone like Joanna Cherry to be the Bruce to finally secure the victory.

    Time will tell but after watching our representatives and our countries opinion being sidelined for the last 4 years, Independence will not be given, its something we will have to take..

  124. Effijy says:

    This site has achieved much and many contributors have presented
    lots of very interesting and useful facts and figures.

    Now that we are in the home straight, it’s no time to be turning on each other or our host.

    I’m sure the Unionist and the 77th will be here to create and stir unrest to take our eyes off the prize.

    31st October, B-Day, Boris Day, should that be Bidet?
    Westminster will impose great harm on the Sovereign Country of Scotland and we will react demanding our Referendum and our Freedom no matter what it takes.

    I have referred many to this site for information relating to UK Politics, particularly Scottish Politics.
    I’ve stopped doing that only because of the in-fighting and childish personal comments that are abound at the moment.

    Can you consider this when you are about to post?
    Do you want a new visitor to turn away for good when finding nonsense?

    Hold steady. Two weeks is nothing and then the bell will toll.

  125. Big Jock says:

    Anyone who thinks the gender issue couldn’t be significant enough to split the SNP and destroy the indi movement. Only needs to look across the North channel to N Eire.

    They lost a whole parliament over the Irish language act and funding. Now N Eire is being run from London represented by right wing zealots who think the earth is flat.

  126. mogabee says:

    How close are women to voting with their feet, walking AWAY and FAST from the SNP who it appears are fucking delighted to see this!

    Stu. Those fools on here and other places who are closing their minds to what an ENORMOUS issue is going to fucking hit if this self ID proposal is not dumped in a black bag, burned and then buried in a deep pit is depressing.

    Don’t folk realise that social media is just the tip of the fucking iceberg and that women, approx 50% of the voting population, are talking about this in private, in the pub, to each other and it’s going to damage the chance of independence?

    We are not going to just accept this and vote because you head-in-the-sand types say so…no way.

    Stu is right. He has told us what will happen if this continues. The media WILL USE IT be in no doubt and women will not let their friends, their daughters, mothers and sisters be sacrificed for ideology…

    Thank you Stu from the bottom of my heart.

  127. desimond says:


    Anything to stop an SNP MP raising a bill for “Referendum for England to Leave the Union”

    Be worth it just to see Jo Swinson coughing her earl grey tea over her cashmere!

  128. Proud Cybernat says:

    ” Independence will not be given, its something we will have to take…”

    And take we will. But whichever way indy finally comes about, the process must be agreed with Westminster vis-a-vis a new Edinburgh Agreement. That is the only process that the EU (and Spain) will recognise as legitimate. Otherwise we’re on dodgy ground.

  129. Ghillie says:

    Well said Proud Cybernat =)

  130. Proud Cybernat says:

    “Don’t folk realise that social media is just the tip of the fucking iceberg and that women, approx 50% of the voting population, are talking about this in private, in the pub, to each other and it’s going to damage the chance of independence?”

    Bollox! They might cut up their SNP membership card (I did). They might not vote SNP in SE2021. But they will know that IndyRef2020 gives them the chance to get indy AND boot SNP out of office in SE2021 (if they are still pushing the self-ID agenda).

  131. msdidi says:

    My understanding is that the First Minister sent a letter to the Prime Minister requesting talks concerning a Section 30 in 2017. This is when Theresa May made her oft repeated proclamation, “now is not the time”. An actual formal request was never made because Theresa almost instantly called her snap General Election which set off a new round of delay. Yet another GE could well be imminent….and may even be called before Halloween. We might not like it but we need to be patient and wait a wee bit longer….but I firmly believe we will regain our independence in 2020.

  132. Daisy Walker says:

    16 October, 2019 at 2:24 pm
    Daisy Walker @ 1.57 pm

    Did you mean to post that here?

    What on earth are you referencing?

    Mharie Black was caught on camera, in the house of commons, putting her hand in her pocket and then rubbing her finger or thumb along her gum line. When asked for an explanation by those concerned that this is a well known method for taking cocaine – she dismissed these concerns and explained she was taking a bit of kit kat.

    Which goes to show that every day is an opportunity for learning – cause in 50 years, I’ve never seen anyone rub kit kat into their gums before.

    I have no strong moral objections to any adult choosing to take cocaine – other than it is illegal. I do however feel very strongly that the people making the laws, should obey them and were an SNP member of parliament be so stupid as to compromise their integrity by doing so – well – ‘hell smack it intae them’ to coin a phrase. But then, I’m a bit of a Jeremy Hunt according to MB’s definition.

    Thanks for asking.

  133. Ghillie says:

    mogabee, women with any sense will realise that the transgender issue will not be going away any time soon.

    Independence first.

    And then a cold clear look at what is needed to recognise the needs of all newly emerging groups in whatever capacity, taking into account the rights and needs of everyone. That is not rocket science.

    BUT WITHOUT INDEPENDENCE who knows what could be coming.

    Focus folks.

    Stuart. Stop spreading panic.

  134. Liz g says:

    The Rev @ 2.10
    There ye go everyone…. Well said Rev.

    For anyone in any doubt,I and others post screeds and screeds about the dangers of the GRA…
    And the Rev gets it all said in one paragraph.
    A million miles from losing it,but rather,an example of what he actually does!

  135. Ghillie says:

    Daisy if that is what you think you are witnessing then why haven’t you reported your concerns to the police instead of making oblique references here?

  136. schrodingers cat says:

    Rev. Stuart Campbell says:
    “Now is not the time” is a refusal. It’s ALWAYS “now”. Unless the answer is “Now is not the time, but you can have it on the 12th of next month” or some other specified date, it just means “No”.


    im not sure this is relevant to the disscussion, you ask why nicola had not pursued the legal route in 2016 when she asked for a s30 the 1st time. whether you agree with nicola or not is neither here nor there, the reason why there was no legal challenge was because nicola took the request off the table before treeza could officially reply.

    such legal and procedural sublties are not irrelevant. when the sg passed the fracking ban, ineos took them to court. it was thrown out by the judge because the sg pointed out that although the legislation had passed through holyrood, the bill still needed to be signed off by the queen, and as such, the fracking ban was not technically speaking a law yet, nicola simply removed the bill from the queens in tray, leaving ineos no grounds to procecute.

    im not a solicitor but there are otherss on social media who are. this is one of their opinions on what should happen

    Martin J Keatings #ReformNHSCHP

    So the cat is out of the bag which I have been keeping under my hat for quite a while. But here is what is going to happen.

    1. Pro-Independence parties capture a majority of seats in the upcoming General Election; and
    2. The First Minister formally requests a section 30 order and it is rejected, or not responded to within a period of 4 weeks; then
    I will be commencing a full-on fundraiser to hire legal counsel to commence legal action against the UK Government.

    Any yes supporter and any yes party will be free to add their name as a respondent/supporter to the action.
    The intent is to challenge, not just a refusal of section 30 but in fact the entire premise of the fact we have to ask for a section 30 in the first place. This is like asking turkeys to vote for Christmas and is not just a devolution issue, but I personally believe, ……..
    the usurpation of OUR (by our I mean you and I, ordinary members of the electorate) fundamental right to vote on the constitutional question.
    My statement:

    The Scotland Act 1998 is, in my view, as a member of the electorate, deficient. Not just in terms of the position of the Scottish Government vs the UK Government, but because it does not have a mechanism in which to enable the ordinary man or ……
    woman of the General Electorate to engage any form of process with respect to the constitutional question, without the Government to which we have expressed our united dissatisfaction towards, being the sole arbiter of that fundamental right to democratic engagement.
    This would be as if the Judge in a trial was also the accused, thereby denying the aggrieved a fair and equitable route of remedial action.
    The idea that Scotland, where it elects a party on a mandate to ask the constitutional question, must seek the permission of a Government from whom we seek to ask the constitutional question about, is quite frankly obscene.
    The entire process of having the UK Government and Parliament temporarily devolve powers to the Scottish Parliament to legislate on a franchise, in order to enable the free expression of the inalienable right to vote on the constitutional question, is an…
    impediment to the democratic rights of the people of Scotland.

    Firstly, it is reliant on politicians in the Scottish Government to seek such a devolvement of powers under Section 30 of the Scotland Act. It then relies on the UK Government, a government with …
    a vested interest in the status quo to acquiesce to such a request. Such responses thus far have been dismissive, undemocratic and generally obtuse. The perfect example of such behaviour being Ms May refusing the order with a “now is not the time” on TV as a flippant remark …
    and without the common decency to respond to the First Minister in writing and in a manner commensurate with the position she held.

    This subservient position that the Scottish Government finds itself in under UK primary legislation, not only inhibits us, the electorate…
    from being able to freely engage our sovereign right to democratic freedom of expression but also allows Westminster to disregard clear mandates issued by the electorate to elected representatives in Scotland and at Westminster, while simultaneously …
    being used to try and brand this serious and substantive constitutional issue as an SNP vs UK Government matter.

    Independence is not about the Scottish National Party; they are merely the political vehicle in which such mandates can currently be represented to Government. …
    The Yes movement is filled with individuals who support all parties and none.

    It is time to impress this upon the Conservative Party at Westminster. That the democratic rights of the electorate cannot merely be dismissed with a “now is not the time”.
    It is also time to impress upon all politicians that they work for the electorate, not the other way around and statements which smell of an arrogant stench of automatic self-entitlement are not enough, like: “We said no and we meant it!”.
    It is not the place of any politician, let alone a party whose seats in Scotland are garnered from a regional list system where their election to parliament is almost assured, a system set up by Westminster to specifically prevent a majority in Holyrood and a party who feel …
    as if they can override the democratic rights of the electorate.

    That is why at the conclusion of the General Election and when the Scottish Government make a formal request to the UK Government for a Section 30 order, if they obtain a majority of Scottish seats, should such …
    a request be denied or ignored by the UK Government, I shall be mobilising the resources of Forward as One to lead in the commencement of crowdfunding activities to be donated directly to legal counsel, not merely to make this an issue of Scottish Government vs UK Government…
    but making this a legal battle of the People vs the UK Government, a process which the Scottish Government and other parties who believe in the democratic rights of the people, will have the right to add their own submissions.
    Any person who wishes to add their name in support of the action will be welcome to do so and indeed I encourage them to do so. Thousands of ordinary members of the electorate vs the UK Government sends a clear and unequivocal message to the court.
    Let me make this abundantly clear. This is not a devolution issue about Governments, it is an issue of the usurpation of democratic rights of the people. It shall, therefore, be addressed in such terms with the court.
    Enough is enough. Section 30 needs to be challenged. At the end of it, we will know the exact steps which we will need to take to move towards independence.

  137. ahundredthidiot says:

    Ghillie @1:39

    Sorry, but my answer is no. I will not waste my whole life on a Scotland not prepared to stand up for itself and once again take its place on the international stage.

    We were fucking pathetic in 2014. I was angry at home and embarrassed abroad. 2020 needs to be a winner or I’m out.

    Sit in the sun all day practising my new accent sounds a lot better than fighting till my dying breath.

  138. Bob Mack says:


    Can you explain why the Scottish Government and Executive have for the last 9 months been totally occupied every day by Brexit planning when the official line is “We will never be taken out of Europe against our will”.

    Seems contradictory.No?

  139. Ghillie says:

    Effijy @ 2.49 pm

    October 31st = Boris Day = Bidet 🙂 🙂 🙂

  140. Proud Cybernat says:

    @ Liz G

    Agreed Liz. When this self-ID crap hit the radar and I looked into it, I cut up my SNP membership card and wrote to them to cancel my party membership and explained why I was doing so. A shot across the bow as it were. There was simply no way I am going to tolerate a party that will sacrifice my wife’s and daughter’s (or any woman’s) rights for that of another group. It’s just not on.

    But will that change my mind in voting for indy? Hell no!! Because indy belongs to the YES movement, to all the people of Scotland. Self-ID belongs to the SNP. Once we have indy we can boot SNP out of office if they’re still obsessed with pushing their self-ID agenda.

    So, given the chance, Liz, will you still vote for indy (knowing you can boot SNP out of office in SE2021 if they’re still pushing self-ID)?

  141. Liz g says:

    Gillie @ 3.04
    He’s not spreading panic Gillie.
    I’ve been reduced to try to explain that Independence is the only real way of reversing or stopping this. To SNP members,by the way.
    In the meantime the Westminster Government has quietly dropped it,think about it Gillie.

  142. Proud Cybernat says:

    @ schrodingers cat 3:10pm

    Do you think Breeks will sign this? LOL. 🙂

  143. Liz g says:

    Proud Cybernat @ 3.16
    Absolutely Proud Cybernat,no question about it 🙂
    I (as I just said ) also see independence as the only way we can deal with this issue .
    As and when Westminster revive it and push I back on the agenda Scottish votes will still count for nothing.
    But unfortunately a lot of people don’t think that far ahead on their own…. But it’s no way to be campaigning….

  144. Daisy Walker says:

    Ghillie says:
    16 October, 2019 at 3:07 pm
    Daisy if that is what you think you are witnessing then why haven’t you reported your concerns to the police instead of making oblique references here?

    A better point might be, when the concerns were put to MB why she dismissed them out of hand with a flippant remark – in other professions – such as the Police for example, where reasonable cause for misuse of drugs is suspected it is a condition of their works contract that they can be required to provide a drugs test.

    MB could have offered to do this, and put all allegations to rest, and set a good precedent. Instead we got ‘kit kats’… and Jeremy Hunt rhyming slang.

    With regards calling the Police on MB, I would rather her conduct is such that no-one has any more cause to suspect. And to that end pointed comments or oblique can be very useful, while at the same time not causing the party bad publicity.

    Rev Stu has evidenced things (on other subjects) and laid them out in step by step, easy to read articles. As far from oblique as you can get. Some people don’t like facts.

    I reserve the right to use oblique references if I choose.

  145. ahundredthidiot says:

    Proud Cybernat @3:16

    I don’t think you’re grasping the impact of GRA and Self ID.

    Our enemies will associate this weakness of the SNP with the wider Yes movement and frame all of us as a bunch of loonies – can’t you see it’s a trap?

    Just look at how people have turned against extinction rebellion, they’re a bunch of fucking zoomers. The same thing is happening with all this transgender bullshit – only the minority are happy with it (and most of them are just ill informed)

    The attack on womens rights will be much more emotive than some phoney climate emergency – it will kill our voting block.- so tell me – for the love of God – how does that help get an indyref2 over the 50% line?

    The art of warfare is to work to your strengths and exploit your enemies weaknesses – not fucking rocket science.

  146. skintybroko says:

    Nice to see a bit of common sense over on the Wee Ginger Dugs page. Whilst i am extremely unhappy at the SNP’s stance in a number of areas they are our only current hope of independence.

  147. mr thms says:

    Does anyone know if the Scottish Government has reached an agreement with the UK Government on a framework for ALL the devolved powers the EU has responsibility for?

  148. Republicofscotland says:

    On Brexit could Sturgeon have waited till now knowing that the polls have clearly shifted in our favour to demand a S30. Would we really have won another indyref 18 months ago, were the polls in our favour then? I personally think not.

    So now we have the polls regularly showing yes in the lead, it would seem a good time to demand a S30, but here’s the rub, Sturgeon wants a indyref late next year, however maybe she too knows there’s not enough time and is prepared for Johnson or however is PM to say no, and then we head to the courts. Cat among the pigeons scenario is that the PM (again whoever) is fed up with Scots interfering shocks us all by saying yes to the S30.

    Sturgeon will have kept her end of the bargain, (banking on a no from Westminster)and as we all know Westminster will have denied us our chance to vote in an indyref (that there’s no time to have) in late 2020.

    If that becomes the scenario then we lose the mandate, unless the SNP wins big in the next Scottish elections. So lets get over the fact that we probably won’t have a indyref next year and secure a big percentage win for the SNP so that a fresh mandate can win us independence, which now looks like it will be late 2021/22.

    Oh and if the Rev’s up and running by then lets give him our list votes to secure a larger independence voice at Holyrood.

  149. Ghillie says:

    Daisy, your wee ditty has well and truly caused the party bad publicity.

    If you wanted to be discreet you could have sent Mhairi an email.

  150. Proud Cybernat says:

    @ ahundredthidiot

    Sorry – not biting.

  151. Peter Mirtitsch says:

    I see “Muscleguy” reckons there isn’t a pro indy majority at Holyrood…

    65 SNP – pro indy
    60 LibLabCon – unionist

    Looks like a majority to me.

    “What about the Greens?” I hear you say?

    Well, either the Greens are on board with indy which is the ONLY way they will get most/any of their policies effected, (remember, they are only a small party), or they stay neutral on the matter. Either way gives a pro indy majority.

    Should they decide to go pro union, watch what support they do have evaporate, and watch as they never win a seat until the oil’s done.

  152. Orlando Quarmby says:

    It’s quite obvious that the SNP did nothing about the refusal by May of the FMs 31 March 2017 letter asking to initiate the S30 process for the simple reason that WM using S30 as a veto on an IndyRef is the SNP’s best excuse for not doing anything serious about independence till after their lunatic idea of waiting till they’re locked into power for the new 5-year Holyrood parliament in 2021. As if the Brexited British state is going to be obligingly legislatively idle against the existing devolved settlement till then.

  153. schrodingers cat says:

    Proud Cybernat says:
    Do you think Breeks will sign this? LOL. ?


    possibly 🙂

  154. Proud Cybernat says:

    “Daisy, your wee ditty has well and truly caused the party bad publicity.”

    Makes you wonder why Daisy would post this, don’t it?

  155. Rev. Stuart Campbell says:

    “the reason why there was no legal challenge was because nicola took the request off the table before treeza could officially reply”

    [citation required]

  156. Rev. Stuart Campbell says:

    “SNP already have the votes. They’re the party in power right NOW and will be until May 2021 (at least)”

    Since there is NO chance of an indyref before that election, that fact counts for dick.

  157. ahundredthidiot says:

    Proud Cybernat

    and that’s the kind of arrogance which could lose us this game.

    re WGD post…..I seem to recall us getting 56 out of 59 FPTP at a GE……where exactly did that get us? – oh, thats right….it’s 2019 and we are BEING dragged out of the EU, but let’s not allow a manifesto commitment to get in the way.

    fingers in ears, focus on a ‘possible’….coming to a cinema near you……GE

  158. schrodingers cat says:

    not sure how i feel about this deal….. a no deal result will increase support for yes by about 5% to 54%

    but, a no deal result will also increase bojo’s support in the ge. making a tory majority more likely.

    it would also delay brexit until at least the ge is over.

    if bojo does get his deal through he will shed brexiteer support to the bxp in the coming ge making a tory majority less likely but it will lessen the impact of brexit which will happen in 2 weeks

  159. Daisy Walker says:

    Ghillie says:
    16 October, 2019 at 3:38 pm
    Daisy, your wee ditty has well and truly caused the party bad publicity.

    If you wanted to be DISCREET you could have sent Mhairi an email.

    ‘Mharie Black was CAUGHT ON CAMERA, IN THE HOUSE OF COMMONS, putting her hand in her pocket and then rubbing her finger or thumb along her gum line. When asked for an explanation (by email and on twitter) by those concerned that this is a well known method for taking cocaine – she dismissed these concerns and explained she was taking a bit of kit kat’

    If or when politicians misbehave like the ‘Jeremy Hunts’ that they can be – the public have always reserved the right to resort to wee ditties to bring them down to earth. And they always will. Rather an important aspect to freedom of speech.

  160. Ghillie says:

    Ahundrathidiot @ 3.12 pm

    Never ever would I refer to anyone in Scotland as ‘pathetic’. Everyone has reasons for their choices.

    Not one moment of my time for Scotland is wasted.

    I am so sorry you could ever see ANY of your time spent on Scotland as a waste.

    Whatever the outcome I will have zero regrets and I WILL always keep fighting for Independence.

    Btw ‘ahundrethidiot’…is that an unpleasant twisted reference to the 100 of the Declaration of Arbroath?

    If you are just feeling worried and anxious about what lies ahead then sincere appologies. Haud oan and keep the heid.

  161. Orlando Quarmby says:

    If I was the Brit security services – 77 Brigade, MI5 or whoever – right now I’d have my online operatives going full-on posing as Nicola groupies & doing everything possible to smear & discredit those voicing concern over an SNP gradualist S30 strategy which is handing the British establishment all the time it needs to neuter the current devolved settlement as its first order of post-Brexit business.

  162. Ghillie says:

    Daisy, what are you playing at?

    Call it out if you have to!

    Wee ditties are pathetic passive aggressive.

  163. schrodingers cat says:

    soz rev, just wiki, best i can do at short notice

    On 16 March 2017, then Prime Minister Theresa May stated that “now is not the time” to discuss another referendum, because the focus should be on “working together, not pulling apart” for Brexit negotiations.[1]

    That month, Nicola Sturgeon, the First Minister of Scotland and leader of the SNP, obtained Scottish Parliament approval to request a Section 30 order enabling a second independence referendum, to take place between late 2018 and early 2019, “when the shape of the UK’s Brexit deal will become clear” she sent the formal request to the UK Government at the end of March.[3] To date, there has been no formal response from the UK Government.

  164. Proud Cybernat says:

    “…Since there is NO chance of an indyref before that election, that fact counts for dick…”

    With all due respect, Rev, but I don’t think the FM will have pulled that date out of her arse and will, along with rest of ScotGov have analysed all the obstacles to the timing to the nth degree. And they will, undoubtedly, know more than you do. I’m sure they are well aware of all the potential obstacles to the timing (GE, 9 month to get Electoral Commission approval on question yadda, yadda). They’ll have considered all of this and may even have taken legal advice that you simply do not have. And, in their view, the end of 2020 is doable. I will have to trust that they have consulted further and thus know better than you do on this. So I will refrain from calling the FM “A liar” for the moment.

    However, should she fail to deliver and it becomes apparent that ScotGov have failed to properly assess the obstacles that may prevent that date, then I’ll be first in the queue to give FM & ScotGov pelters.

    Until then I’ll give them the benefit of the doubt. As we all should.

  165. Corrado Mella says:

    In case you all folks (with The Rev or not) don’t understand where we all are, look up “Zeno’s Achille Paradox”.

    To achieve our goal, we cannot just aim to reach it, but we must overreach.

    Only reaching and surpassing it, we can really achieve it.

    Especially when our goal is a moving target in the hands of a hostile power.

    That’s why continually playing within the rules of the infinitesimally divisible space between us and our goal we will never achieve it.

    And, please, don’t compare Catalonia with Scotland.
    We’re economically, socially and numerically much, much more powerful – thus interesting – than Catalonia.

  166. seems to me that Stu’s basic argument is that if the 3 English Tory parties remain obdurately against a referendum in the face of clear SNP mandates for it – it must be the SNP’s fault and the SNP will be totally lost in this situation and not know what to do next.

    And the ongoing demonstration by the SNP that they can run health/policing/education and anything else they are responsible for better than in England and Wales counts for nought in building confidence amongst the electorate that must we won over to wind an election. Is this really all irrelevant?

    Also using abuse the way he has on this and other recent posts demonstrates he has lost the argument.

    The Wings Party idea will not fly if people think that it is run by a narcissist nutter with an anti-SNP agenda

    If Stu could say that his slate of list candidates was led by the esteemed ex-FM it might work – but again not on the basis of SNP baaad

  167. schrodingers cat says:

    in the after math of the 2017 ge

    Sturgeon told MSPs that Scotland’s voters had rejected her calls in March for a fresh referendum by spring 2019, so she was abandoning that timetable and dropping her plans to introduce a referendum bill before Christmas. Her government needed to “to take stock and refresh” she added.

  168. Daisy Walker says:

    @Proud Cybernat says:
    16 October, 2019 at 3:46 pm
    “Daisy, your wee ditty has well and truly caused the party bad publicity.”

    Makes you wonder why Daisy would post this, don’t it?

    Because, in 15 days we are getting taken out of the EU against our electorial wishes, in spite of providing our Governing Party THREE MANDATES to get us to the ballot box and prevent it. And once out, regardless of the shortcomings of the EU toward Catalonia – once out, we lose an extra level of Democratic protection and international surveillance and accountability, which will play into the hands of the British Establishments rather nastier talents.

    And while some say, we really need to let all the badness of Brexit bight before our electorate will see the light. I say that the WM Government and the Medial will just blame the SNP and Holyrood – yet again.

    And what I cannot understand or condone – is the utter lack of campaigning, about the prerils of Brexit, the pro’s of EU Membership and the reality of our economic assets not done by the SNP in the last 3 years. It is a vacancy with no excuse.

    I have voted SNP for 32 years, I have put £100s of pounds to the local branch and I have supported it in person.

    Right just now, I am feeling monumentally betrayed by them, but not as betrayed as I will feel if it comes to No Deal = Chaos = Holyrood Closed=bye bye indy for a very long time.

    Meanwhile everyone look – there’s a nice shiny GE coming soon, look, really.

    One last thing wee ditties don’t cause bad publicity – Bad Actions cause bad publicity – they come first. The wee ditties follow along, a long time after.

  169. dadsarmy says:

    Theresa May called a general election on 18 April 2017, and it took place on 8 June 2017 – less than 2 months later.

    Bearing in mind that proto-ref legislation is in place, and all the rest of the trimmings from last time, AND it’s going to be the same question, 2 to 3 months from calling Indy Ref 2 to actually holding it is not unreasonable. The Electoral Commision can make recommendations, but they don’t rule the roost. And the Referendums (Scotland) Act has effect to streamline the process, once it’s passed and receives Royal Assent.

    Which means the latest time to call Indy Ref 2 and have it next year, is around August 2020. It may well be a lot sooner.

    It also doesn’t need an Edinburgh Agreement to be recognised internationally – that was basically internal to the UK / rUK / Scotland. It also doesn’t need a Section 30, just to be legally held. But it does have to be fully legal, within the UK “Constitution” and the Rule of Law, to be recognised internationally.

    Don’t forget, Sturgeon does pick her words carefully, read what she says, not what the media reports her as having said – even The National gets it wrong.

    does not contain “Edinburgh Agreement”, nor even “Section 30”.

  170. Daisy Walker says:

    @Ghillie says:
    16 October, 2019 at 4:07 pm
    Daisy, what are you playing at?

    Call it out if you have to!

    Wee ditties are pathetic passive aggressive.

    Are they aye!

  171. schrodingers cat says:

    nicola sent the formal request to the UK Government at the end of March. theresa may called the ge on the 18 april, before the official 4 week period for a reply was ended.

  172. Essexexile says:

    defo @2.12pm
    Good post.
    Been wondering the same.
    Me too.

  173. Proud Cybernat says:

    “…once out, we lose an extra level of Democratic protection and international surveillance and accountability, which will play into the hands of the British Establishments rather nastier talents.”

    The EU want Scotland (the jewel of the UK crown) to be part of the EU (even if we have to re-apply – we’ll be fast-tracked). Many EU MEPs have stated as much, even signed statements to that effect.

    WM wants a future trade agreement with the EU.

    So WM point-blank refuses S30 request. What do you think the EU will be saying to WM during those negotiations?

    EU has Ireland’s back right now in dealing with WM. They’ll have our back too when it matters. We’ll have more leverage than people think.

  174. Josef Ó Luain says:

    My goodness, it doesn’t take much to upset some people on here. Turning on the Ed. for expressing opinions that you disagree with is particularly sad, given his hands-on, hard-graft in the cause of Independence over recent years. What a fucking brass-neck it must take to stab a man in the back like that!

  175. Allan Watson says:

    Stuart Campbell is not in any position to get independence, the SNP and other independence parties will.

    A number of people on this site have said that they are no longer going to vote for the SNP or other independence parties as they have various issues with some of their policies.

    My question to those who will no longer vote for these parties is WHO are you going to vote for to achieve independence?

    There is NO political party who everyone will agree 100% with all their policies, its bloody impossible. The policies that you don’t agree with you just have to suck it up and get on with it as long as the end game is achieved ie independence.

    The rest can be sorted out later. Stay bloody focused on the prise INDEPENDENCE.

    This site has degenerated into a clone of Scotland in Union. They couldn’t do a better job of undermining the the SNP than Stuart Campbell is doing and has been doing for the last few months.

    CONSTRUCTIVE criticism should always be encouraged, what we are seeing on this site is destructive foul mouth ranting which does not get anybody anywhere.

    Stuart for years this site has been a bastion of support for independence and backed daily and financially by lots of people who are now leaving in numbers. Some of these people are very knowledgeable and contributed significantly to the success that this site has enjoyed over the years

    In your parlance you have fucked up big style and ruined a great blog with a foul mouthed arrogance which will surely be your downfall.

    In the unlikely event that you post this don’t bother to tell me to FUCK off —— i’m off. Another one leaves

  176. Bob Thomas says:

    Dear Stu,

    It is with a heavy heart that I write this and please do not view this as just another ‘rant’ but it is intended as an appeal to reason and logic.

    Your output has clearly shifted over the past few months from that of a respected, pro-independence, writer into a narrow, ‘anti-SNP’, commentator. It seems as though your Twitter ‘Personality’ as bled over into the Wings blog for whatever reason.

    So, Ok; here it is:

    There is only ONE political party capable of delivering Independence and they have highly qualified Lawyers who know and understand UK Constitutional, Scottish and International Law. The recent example of the Scottish Court of Sessions’ ruling against Boris Johnson and that judgement being upheld by the UK Supreme Court, demonstrates their competence in Scottish and UK law at least, is sound.

    The only demonstration of your own legal abilities is sadly, a failed court case. I make no other comment on its substantive nature, as it is entirely irrelevant to the case for Independence for Scotland, or this discussion, something you should reflect deeply upon, in my humble opinion.

    You are not a Lawyer, and neither am I! I would not presume to judge any legal matter, much less the complex situation involving the Consitutional separation of Scotland and England!

    We have no idea what would constitute a FULLY legal Independence Referendum, in either Scottish, UK or International Law. Unless we pursue this goal legally and correctly, we will not be recognized, by the UN or the EU, as an Independent Country. The ‘Section 30 Order’ is nothing but an agreement to abide by the result. Of course we can have a vote without one but that would mean England is simply ‘not obliged’ to respect the result.
    That is all it means.

    If we went ahead with an ‘Ad Hoc’ Referendum, without observing all the necessary international legalities, that would constitute a complete failure of the attempt to gain our Independence and a failure of the strategy of the SNP.

    It is my own opinion, that your own misadventures with the Law seem to have completely diverted your attention from the real objective. That is for me, when you started going seriously off the rails and losing your real focus.
    Again this is only my opinion.

    A more solid analysis as to the nature of your current activities is yet to follow. Please bear with me.
    I make no comment on the subtance of your legal case, nor can I affirm or deny its ultimate veracity, not knowing all the facts. However a legal judgement was passed and that is that.
    I suggest you move on.

    I had hoped you would eventually regain your focus but it has just become more diffused as time has passed. You are beginning to look more like the ‘bitter old man’ mentioned in an earlier reply by another supporter and your continual sniping at the SNP and their strategy, does you no favours and indeed, is only losing you supporters.

    Although, I’m sure you are gaining some die-hard Unioninsts, who are rubbing their hands in glee at your comments, seeing them as signs of a split in the Independence movement!
    There is no such split.

    Your strategy of using polls, with such a small sample base, that they cannot be statistically significant, is not a wise nor a convincing foundation for any argument. I habitually distrust all polls; especially those produced by the Mainstream Media! Their Polls often have ten times the sample base of your polls, yet they are often still wrong and flawed. They lack any real scientific, statistical data, necesary to judge the results. They are intended to be divisive and to undermine the case for Independence, because we all know who owns the Media ‘machine’!

    Just like the Mainstream Media, you provide no rigorous statistical information e.g. ‘standard deviations’ or ‘standard means’ relating to the results. These are normal statistical tools which check and balance the veracity of our statistical projections. Without them the results are meaningless. You can see now why I distrust popular Polls!

    In addition, with such a small sample base, the possible influence of ‘agents provocateurs’ cannot be eliminated or even statistically ‘removed’ or accounted for and it would take only a small number of such ‘agents’ to seriously skew the results and render all your conclusions completely invalid!
    So much for rigour.

    Do you recognise, or even acknowledge that this is, at least, a possibility in presenting any of your conclusions?

    It’s not your fault that you cannot sample a large enough number of people for a significant poll. You don’t have the resources nor, I suspect, the mathematical, statistical, tools to do that. So why present such weak data in such a confident manner?

    The assumptions you make and conclusions you draw FROM those results ARE your responsibility, however and as they may well contain serious potential flaws, it makes your, apparently ‘firm’ conclusions fundamentally unsound and very unwise.

    I would certainly not base any strong arguments, or even comments, based on the results of those polls, yet you have been doing exactly this for many weeks now, expecting people to take them seriously and give credance to your conclusions as though the results were incontrovertible.
    They are not.

    From the results of these polls, you over-confidently express your arguments, whose logic may well be completely invalid and your conclusions totally inconsistent with reality.

    Is this ‘strident confidence’ a responsible presentation style, given the issues I’ve just raised about your data?

    It is true that I cannot, conclusively, prove the existence of anyone who would ‘lie to pollsters’ (as though that has never been known to happen! LOL!) but the possibility should and MUST be accounted for in your conclusions.
    You certainly can’t demonstrate or prove the absence of such influences and statistical errors!

    How confident should we expect your conclusions to be given all of this?

    I would say: ‘Judicious caution’ would be the better part of valour in these unusual circumstances.

    Yes, they seem to show that there are a lot of people genuinely confused and very frustrated, by the current political situation! Well that’s a surprise isn’t it?

    Many of them may well be ‘soft’ Unionists, who are close to switching sides. Other not so soft. The Westminster System is continuing its inevitable collapse; but there are those who will never give up the ‘Myth of Empire’ and will do anything to preserve their ‘World View’, especially those with vested interests in maintaining the staus quo.

    Combining all of these variables it is impossible to draw any firm conclusion, much less produce a solid basis for the criticism of the strategy of the SNP!

    A lack of real legal knowlege plus a lack of firm statistical evidence makes this impossible. To pretend otherwise is really quite disengenuous.

    These are unique and unprecedented times!

    We are in a totally new ‘Political Landscape’! Post 2014 none of the old habits and rules of UK, or Scottish, Politics apply!

    It is (as they say) a ‘New Ball Game’ and has been since the political earthquake of the result of the 2014 Independence Referendum! I posted extensively about this at the time, but I don’t honestly expect you to have seen any of those posts. So let me give you q quick prece of them.

    Mostly, I said that:

    “… regardless of the apparent narrow ‘win’ by the Unionists, the stranglehold of the ‘Myth’ of the Union over the minds of the people of Scotland has been forever broken!” and that:

    ” … the lies told during the Independence Referendum, by the ‘Better Together’ campaign, will eventually come back to haunt them, and the people of Scotland will not be at all forgiving!” and:

    “.. we saw how quickly (within 24 hours) David Cameron shifted from promising Scotland and ‘equal partnership in the Union to E.V.E.L.! This will also not be forgotten or forgiven!”

    The Referendum result, in favour of separation, (45%) was sufficient for me to confidently say that:

    “Scotland is now ‘effectively’ out of the Union with England and it is only a *matter of time* before full Independence is achieved.” (*emphasis* mine and current).

    I also indicated that, that ‘time’ would pass relatively quickly. It certainly has! The British Estblishment has crumbled far quicker and by its own (Conservative) hand than I, or anyone, could have predicted.

    That 2014 analysis has been proven correct.

    I also, correctly, predicted an empowerment of the ‘far-right’ and the release of the overt racism of many English voters, as a result of the Brexit vote, regardless of its result. I really do hate being that right sometimes!

    I have been as impatient, as the next Scot, when it comes to understanding the strategy of the SNP. I want them to ‘get on wth it’ and ‘hurry up toward an Independence vote’ and ‘get rid of the Tories from Scotland forever!’ …

    … but not at the cost of losing the prize altogether!

    If they fail to deliver Independence or, somehow, betray the people of Scotland, then they will pay a very high price for that. Just look at what we have done to Labour, in Scotland, to see an example of the likely punishment we would inflict upon them!

    Do you really think that lesson is lost on the SNP?

    However, we are not there yet and a rush to judgement based on the weak evidence and conjecture, as you are currently providing, is totally counter-productive. You should be exercising much more discernment in the interpretation of your polls and much greater care in presentation of your conclusions.

    As we have seen with Boris Johnson, ‘Words have Power’ and if they are used without due caution, chaos can and will, ensue!

    I have about read of your ideas about forming another Political Party, promoting Scottish Independence and I have to say, it’s not what I would do in the prsent circumstances. It would not help secure a positive referendum vote and its effect ont he balance of Holyrood is questionable. Again that is my opinion and you will probably disagree, however these are my reasons:

    I recognize that the Holyrood voting sysem isn’t perfect. It was designed to keep the SNP out of power.
    Well we can all see how well that worked out, can’t we? LOL!

    We have to win our Independence within the system we have. If we cannot, then we do not have enough support for the cause. If we carry the vast majority of the people, the vagaries of the voting system will not matter in the slightest! That ‘Historic Landslide’ which gave the SNP a fully working majority, against the design of the system, conclusively proved that popular support can win out over plain, voting mechanics!

    We can always change the voting system, when we are a ‘normal’ Country, with a written Constitution. The idea of manipulating the List System is exactly the kind of strategy I would expect from a Tory (no offence intended).
    So, on balance, I think forming another Independence Party is really a non-starter, but even if you did manage to start such a Party, I doubt you would get enough support, especially since you don’t even live in Scotland!

    It would be like any would-be politician announcing they were starting a new Party … in another Country and asking people to support him!

    In any event, the next Independence vote will not in a Holyrood Election, as that is too full of imponderables and variables, for any real clarity of result. So a ‘List Only Party would be totally irrelevant to an Independence Referendum Vote.

    How much ground do you really expect such a new Party would gain and what would be the effect on the SNP vote?

    Why not form an ‘English Independence Party’ based on the idea of them leaving the Union? We all saw the tirade agaist Scotland when it ‘dared’ to tell England “what to do” about Brexit! (Such an irony eh?)

    I think that’d do a much better job splitting the Tory vote and you might even get yourself elected and secure a MP pension for yourself! LOL!

    Alternartively, you could run for the Liberal Democrats and hopefully, turn their course back towards something remotely rational! I believe that is where your true political affiliations acually lie, in any case.

    So finally, in summary:

    I’m sorry Stu, but I think you’ve now just lost too much of the plot and have become immersed in your own psychological projections, based on, logically unreliable and probably highly inaccurate, polls.

    I’ve been with you for a long time now and you have been great at taking all the Mainstream Media lies apart but now, all you seem to do is try to undermine trust in the strategy of the SNP based on very little real ‘hard’ evidence. Not good.

    That strategy which is seeking to create a legal and recognized Independent Scotland is the only one we currently have. For one, I will be backing it until it has been proven to be a failure.
    Either by a failed 2nd Referendum vote, or by a Referendum vote not being delivered by the end of the current Scottish Parliament. Then I would be reassessing my support for the SNP, but not before!

    The single most indisputable fact is: You base your entire anti-SNP strategy arguments on poll results, which are at best, completely unreliable, potentially contaminated and have far too small a sample base to be considered remotely statistically significant.

    I’ve never been a member of any Political Party in my life, although my parents were Labour supporters, I am a grass-roots Self-Government activist, so you can’t use that excuse to simply dismiss my concerns, but no doubt you will think of something else, you are a very intelledctually resourceful person.

    You can and I suspect, probably will, just dismiss everything I’ve said as another ‘ranting drone’ completely ignoring the fact that I am not actually an SNP member; or you might launch into a round of personal insults, as many others do, when faced with arguments they cannot counter in any cogent manner, or faced with something which challenges their ‘World View’.

    The alternative to all that is to reassess your entire approach and as with all entrenched views, I sadly cannot see you doing that. As always, I hope I am wrong in my analyses, especially as the conclusions are so ‘unfavourable’.

    I know this is difficult because I have experienced such a problem in my own life. When my own ‘World-view’ was radically contradicted and shatterd. I had only two options:

    1) Ignore the Reality and carry on with a comforting lie.


    2) Take the New Information on board and fundamentally change my view of Reality.

    As science is very much at my core, I chose the later option. I really need to be able to look myself in the mirror in the mornings!

    I hope you have the courage to make the same, objective, assessment and choose reality over an illusion and not stick, dogedly, to conclusions based on insubstantial Poll results and potentially, very flawed logic.
    In doing so you serve no one but the forces of chaos … and of course, the crumbling, British Establishment.

    Once we have an Independent Scotland, I will probably vote Green in a free Scottish Election, unless the SNP get much more serious about Climate Change; Assuming they still exist post Independence. My main concern is for our survival as a species and the Environmental habitability of the planet. However I do see an Independent Scotland having the potential to be a leading example in this endeavour, once we have achieved full self-determination.

    Until then I will continue to vote for the ONLY Poltical Party with the remotest hope of securing our Independence.

    That would be the SNP.

    My apologies if I seem to have laboured sevetal points but given the circumstances i judged that to be necessary to nail down the issues.

    So for now, I have to say, you’ve sadly lost me as a supporter but I hope you will eventually, come to your senses and get back on track. If that happens, I will happily return as a ‘Wings Over Scotland’ supporter.

    Until then,

    Sincere Regards… etc. etc.

    P.S. Please forgive any remaining ‘typos’, you can never snag them all, can you? 🙂

  177. John says:

    Thank God not everyone reads Wings , and here was me promoting it to every family member and accquantist I could muster a year ago ,donating hard earned cash to fight Dugdale and to sustain the site , well you know what they say , you live and you learn . Labour , Tories , Fib-dems , you have found a new home, enjoy !.

  178. Luigi says:


    Is a self ID “woman” (retaining a male appendage) entitled to apply to be a candidate on an all-women shortlist (as apparently planned by the SNP)?

    Jeez if this is the case, the SNP are in big trouble.

    That’s the thing about cans of worms – best kept shut, very tightly.

  179. Bob Mack says:

    One thing I do know is you wil! al! be back eating humble pie.
    Farewe!! fair weather friends. The mind of the mob is contagious.

  180. Meindevon says:

    I feel Nicola Sturgeon knows what she is doing. Maybe it’s just hope and want and need. But she’s not stupid and they know time limitations surely.

    Did NS not have several meetings with the EU guys in the last year or so?

    I think they’ll have some agreement behind the scenes.

    And Ian Blackford has been so robust in his ‘Scotland will NOT be dragged out against her will’ rhetoric. Surely they have something up there sleeve. Surely.

  181. Breeks says:

    1706 Act of Union.

    Article 6 (Customs Union).

    That all parts of the United Kingdom for ever from and after the Union shall have the same Allowances, Encouragements and Drawbacks, and be under the same Prohibitions, Restrictions and Regulations of Trade and lyable to the same Customs and Duties on Import and Export….

    Whoops. Sorry Mr Barnier, an international border in the Irish Sea doesn’t work. It is unconstitutional and unlawful. Unless predicated by formal Irish reunification, it is a direct contravention of the Articles of Union.

    I’m sure the courageous Scottish Government will be lodging a formal dispute to these unconstitutional and unlawful proposals in immediate due course…

  182. Bob Mack says:


    In due course. Wi!l that require a watch or a calendar for the next decade.

  183. Breeks says:

    … unless Scotland and our laws are to be subjugated both by Westminster AND Brussels…

  184. Ian Foulds says:

    Astonished and Sinky at 10.30 and 10.32am.

    Thank you.

    I believe your comments have been made with consideration and in a calm and mature manner.

    I hope this is the way things will go.

    Lochranza – I understand your upset with our host, however, I am sure there is good reason for his possible out of sorts, as usually it all comes around and he is indeed not a silly man but one with much positivity to offer.

  185. Breeks says:

    Bob Mack says:
    16 October, 2019 at 5:03 pm

    In due course. Wi!l that require a watch or a calendar for the next decade.

    It’s neither a watch nor a calendar which gives me such great anxiety, but the heart and willingness of our Government to engage in such a dispute at all.

  186. Proud Cybernat says:

    “…It’s neither a watch nor a calendar which gives me such great anxiety, but the heart and willingness of our Government to engage in such a dispute at all.”

    Which is why SNP MPs in WM will vote AGAINST such a deal. Should it pass then the shit will hit the fan.

  187. manandboy says:

    From a purely political strategy point of view, the trans gender issue, which appears to have consumed the leadership of the Scottish Government on a personal level, is a mistake. It should be completely shelved till after Independence.

    That is the responsibility of the Scottish Cabinet. If they do that, then the Independence Movement can move on. If not, and it leads to the loss of Independence at this time, then it will rank with Brexit as a monumental catastrophe.

    The difference between the Rev and the SNP leadership is that he can see the catastrophe coming, while they apparently don’t. With stakes this high, and with the scale of his personal investment, is it any wonder Stu is a tad upset. It’s not difficult to sympathise with his standpoint.

  188. dadsarmy says:

    With such a difference in opinion, perhaps it’s important to try to find something in common apart from Independence itself. I suggest:

    1). GRA is about Holyrood, not a General Election if it happens this year as looks possible. So it has nothing to do with a GE.

    2). Sturgeon has said the GE would be all about securing Indy Ref 2 (see next posting for the extract from her speech).

    3). As long as the SNP don’t try to fudge it with some stupid out of date logo thing like “Stronger for Scotland”, ALL Indy supporters should vote SNP for that 2nd Indy Ref. As should undecided and even NO voters who nevertheless, want Indy Ref 2.

    4). While a result of say a Heinz 57 SNP MPs would not give a mandate for Independence, it would give the absolute strongest mandate yet for Indy Ref 2.

    And yes I know, there are 3 already, but this time the SNP should make the GE a single issue campaign, with a manifesto saying just one thing: “Vote SNP for Indy Ref 2”.

    5). For a GE before Christmas this year, the Rev should put aside GRA and the SNP’s dithering or whatever, and throw the weight of Wings back behind the SNP – “On Tolerance”, i.e. he still doesn’t trust the SNP but will give them one short sharp chance more.

  189. RobertTheTruth says:


    Are you OK? You appear to be unravelling with each subsequent post. Are you trying to get banned? From being a rather timid obsequious devotee of the history man, you have now become a full blown paranoiac assigning people into little lists.

    Mhairi Black has long lost her ‘darling’ status with her absenteeism and lack of focus. Why she is standing again is a mystery since she says she hates it all. Maybe London suits her needs now.

    And yes just google the incident, it was not very impressive at all.

  190. twathater says:

    To be quite honest Stu I PERSONALLY would just say FUCK IT ,and forget about EXPOSING anything to do with the SNP , I would consider running the odd crowd funder to cover my expenses and wages , and run posts to expose the lies and stupidity of liebour and company because let’s face it , because you are EXPOSING and revealing things that the SNP are not doing or should be doing you are incurring the wrath of the SNP faithful and there are numerous faithfulites who are threatening withdrawal of your income

    Apart from fighting tooth and nail for at least 6 years to further the independence cause by exposing the msm’s bile , and collating and distributing the WBB while the OFFICIAL independence protagonists were picking fluff out their belly buttons , you have shown that you’re not really a supporter of independence according to the faithfulites you are a narcissistic self absorbed opportunist
    And as for the GRA policy , according to many faithfulites it has ALL been sorted , and according to the same faithfulites it ONLY impacts on a measly 52% of the population so you are arguing and supporting a minority of the population just to get at the wonderful do no wrong SNP
    And as for the GRA ,Capella , Liz G , Clapper57 and others you are just leading Stu astray and diverting him from the REAL issues
    So Stuart to round off GET BACK ON THE SNP HAPPY CLAPPY WAGON , stop being upset at the SNP supporting Kezia and her VICTORY for stupidity , or us faithfulites will STOP supporting you and financing you and will instead give our money to the woke brigade
    And BTW Nicola and the SNP don’t need to answer to you they only need the 127000 members to win a GE then we go forward for independence sometime because we will have a NEW mandate

    So faithfulites if Stuart promises to get on the HAPPY CLAPPY WAGON again and shuts up about the GRA will you then continue with your financial and emotional contribution or does he need to be publicly flogged

    Sorry for this LONG interpretation of what I personally feel is happening

  191. dadsarmy says:

    Sturgeon: “ A general election is imminent.

    And it cannot come soon enough.

    When it does our message will be clear, simple and unambiguous.

    Vote SNP to demand independence and secure Scotland’s right to choose.

    Some polls suggest that an election might result in a hung parliament.

    The SNP will never put the Tories into power.

    But I have a message for any Westminster party that wants SNP support.

    If you don’t respect Scotland’s right to choose our own future at a time of our own choosing, don’t even bother picking up the phone.


    Vote SNP to demand independence and secure Scotland’s right to choose.

    But for those angered by the SNP, if and only if their manifesto is simple – Indy Ref 2 – and none of the other bullshit about policies the SNP have no chance of implementing in Westminster anyway.

    It would be a “Westminster no more” manifesto, pure and simples.

    Which it should have been back in 2017 instead of the rest of the pretentious crap.

  192. Bobp says:

    Ahundredtheidiot 3.12pm. I know exactly how you felt days and weeks after that shameful vote in September 2014. I was sitting in a bar in Spain end of that September wearing a Celtic top,being constantly asked by other Europeans what had happened in Scotland. I was for the first time in my life utterly ashamed to open my mouth and let my accent be heard. But as I had spent my youth growing up in Ireland, I shrugged my shoulders and said, in a brilliant imitation of my deceased fathers tongue,nothing to do with me my friend, I’m Irish.

  193. Bob Mack says:


    No ,your spot on.

  194. gus1940 says:

    Bob Thomas.

    Well said and I hope that Stu heeds your wise words.

  195. Maria F says:

    Well no surprise there.

    a) If Scotland is an equal partner, an equal signatory of an international treaty where it entered as an independent sovereign state, those powers are Scotland’s in the first place. I am actually amazed that those powers are not already in Holyrood. Westminster has obviously retained them in the hope we would not demand them back.

    b) Even if the kingdom of England has gone ultravires and abused an international treaty of union as a tool to take over another kingdom and exploit it as its dominion, then besides the legal and political implications of publicly acknowledging this illegitimate take over, as the UK is a signatory of the Decolonisation Charter of the UN, it must comply with it if it wants to remain a member. The charter does not say anything about the dominion having to “request” or beg for those powers. It says quite clearly and categorically that “Immediate steps should be taken in Trust and Non Self Governing territories or all other territories which have not yet attained independence, to transfer all powers to the peoples of those territories, WITHOUT ANY CONDITIONS OR RESERVATIONS, in accordance with their freely expressed will and desire without any distinction as to race, creed or colour in order to enable them to enjoy complete independence and freedom” (my emphasis with capitals)

    In light of this, frankly, I do not see how a bunch of arrogant and self-entitled England MPs could have ever thought for even a second that the Scottish people would be happy with the myth that we have to beg for those powers rather than simply demanding them back, if they are not with the Scottish Gov and parliament already as they should be.

  196. mr thms says:

    Regarding an agreement between the Scottish and UK Governments on a framework for devolved powers returning from the EU after Brexit, There is an article in The National that suggests there is. It mentions a third party mediator to resolve any disputes between the administrations could be part of the proposals to be announced at the end of the year.

    Might be a bit premature but if there is I reckon there will be a Withdrawal Agreement between the UK and the EU that will include a ‘transitional arrangement’.

    If there is a an orderly Brexit it follows there will be an orderly dissolution of the UK.

  197. Bob Mack says:

    Cash or credibility Stu ? I think I know the answer to that already.

  198. Colin Alexander says:

    “Vote SNP to demand independence and secure Scotland’s right to choose.”

    That seems to imply Scotland’s right to choose indy is not secure unless we again vote SNP at a GE.

    Does that mean the quadruple mandate counts for nothing?

    If three or four previous mandates don’t count, then a fifth won’t make any difference.

    It’s SNP mince.

  199. Liz g says:

    Twathater @ 5.18
    Well said and I wouldn’t blame the Rev one bit if he did stop pointing out the threat to the independence window closing and the risk to the votes of the GRA.
    But I’d be mighty glad if he didn’t.

    I also think that all those threatening to withdraw funding have forgotten or didn’t notice that the last fund raiser was titled “The Last Call”
    They should think on that for a minute ?
    Indy Ref two and no Wings to pull out the lies and destroy the arguments!
    While I’ve no doubt Indy is not dependant on Stu Ive also no doubt the he could earn a living else where and with a lot less grief.

    But just like everyone wondered what we would do if the British State pulled the plug on Wings…. Mibbi we should all have a think about if we ourselves want this resource or not?
    We fund Wings to keep him answerable to no one hopefully in the knowledge that getting “sponsors” would pose no difficulty for him but the other side of that coin is that no one absolutely no one can hold him to this work if he did say “fuck it ” and packed it all in!
    So think on that before telling him how to run his own site…

  200. Hector says:

    Rev Stu, Been following your recent posts with great interest, and the responses! I have followed Wings since 2013, looked at the site then and got hooked. Point is, I contribute financially to this site, because I believe that I will get to know what I need to know from Wings, BTL has often been fascinating with a standard of debate which has been unique in the history of Scottish Politics. Your analytic pieces are always challenging and informative and I just love the polls you have undertaken. So, Stu, much respect. In terms of where you are now in your writing and analysis, I’m not sure but I do know that not only are you a colossus of the Yes Movement but I worry that you are also the Canary in The Coalmine. I reserve judgement for now, but, hey ho, onwards and upwards.

  201. Bobp says:

    Twathater 5.18pm. I’m onboard with you on that.

  202. Maria F says:

    16 October, 2019 at 5:18 pm

    You are going a little bit ahead of yourself there. No disrespect to Stu, but I am not quite sure what you think this article “has exposed” from the SNP, to be honest. That they intend to demand the powers to hold a referendum?

    Well, I did not expect anything else. The damaging revelation would have been that they intended to “ask” nicely for the powers, powers that are Scotland’s in the first place and should have been already brought to Holyrood the day it was reconvened.

    That the SNP demand those powers back tells me that they are prepared to take those bluffing bstrds to an international court if they dare denying to return those powers exactly where they belong: the hands of the people of Scotland.

    That is good enough for me.

    P.S. In the same way that you expect Stu to be able to challenge openly the SNP for things he does not like, which is fair, you have to acknowledge that it is also fair that readers, followers of the SNP or not (I am not an SNP member, by the way), may not always agree with Stu’s conclusions, interpretations or perceptions of what the SNP does and why, therefore those who disagree with Stu have to be able to dissent, otherwise the system would be unfair.

    But dissent and challenge is what keeps the indy movement’s focus, creativity and will alive. The movement would never go anywhere if it just had to rely on the inertia of everybody thinking and moving in block by consensus at the exact same time. It would take hundreds of years to get to the goal, if we would ever reach that point. It is precisely the differences of opinion and continuous challenging of stereotypes and fixtures within the movement itself what increases the movement’s own centripetal force and speed towards its goal.

  203. Shug says:

    That’s a great idea
    All in favour of dumping the verminous, subside junkie, winging Barnett grasping Scots and the painfully bigoted, costing millions paddy’s to allow a new Jerusalem to be built in this fair and pleasant land
    What a vote

  204. Clapper57 says:

    Just seen a funny quote on Twitter along the lines of :

    “Instead of giving the EU £350 million a week….why not give it to the DUP instead”….”should have been on side of a bus”.

    Lol….seems about right !

    So basically it is being reported that loadsa money being offered to DUP to agree to support Theresa May’s Bojo’d deal….which if sources are correct involves NI remaining in SM and CU of EU.

    As FM stated in her speech yesterday….seems as if everyone is getting what they, as a majority, voted for in UK …..apart from Scotland….I mean how many times do we need to state Scotland voted to remain ?…and still get jack sh*t…and be expected to like it or lump it etc etc.

    We in Scotland voted as a majority to REMAIN in EU therefore remaining in single market and customs Union…as did NI..BUT the DUP ( without a majority in NI) insists that NI has the same deal as the rest of the UK….but that is not, if rumours are true, what is on offer….no they will be the exception and remain in single market and customs Union…for how long ?..who decides what happens next and when ?

    So much for the “we voted as the UK”….” one out all out”…perhaps those Vote Leave Tories should say ‘oh but we forgot to add the proviso on the ballot paper of the EU referendum re Northern Ireland being a ‘special’ case…mainly because none of us arrogant f**kers even considered the NI/EU border while campaigning to leave the EU….BLol’.

    If the DUP do get offered MORE money as a bribe to support May’s Bojo’d deal…well really is that not the actual final straw that SHOULD break the camel’s back for Scotland remaining in the UK….will Jo Swinson not be on the case for Scotland…Lol….

    Would that not be a reason to tell them they can stick their respecting democracy where the sun don’t shine cause Scottish taxpayers are NOT paying for bungs to be given to the DUP, to support the Tories, while we in Scotland are being ignored and forced to comply with this shitfest currently being played out in UK-Not-OK.

    Certainly proves for the DUP that the slogan ‘Better Together’ is more suited to their country NI than to us in Scotland….unfortunately no Scottish Unionist politician will be honest enough to admit to that being the case….

    I am sure Alister Jack , like his predecessor, will find it easy to not see any disparity in this cash for support arrangement between his party and the DUP and indeed in exception being made to NI remaining in SM and CU….even if economically it will be to Scotland’s disadvantage….that’s not Alister’s remit…his remit is to ensure we, in Scotland, remain at the bottom of the ‘money’ chain in his fantasy island BritNattania….AND to also ensure we bloody well do what we are TOLD by the new English Nationalist party masquerading as the Tory party….Alister is an honorary member.

    Begorra….is it not a travesty… so it is…so it is….meanwhile in Scotland….

    BTW I have NOT given up my SNP membership and will vote SNP at GE ….I have written to my MP and MSP that my allegiance to them, as a party, is on a shoogly peg if they pursue Self ID policy…..

    However like others I see we are so close…stars aligned…or should be….and other than voting SNP I am at a loss as to how we could be able to gain independence without voting for the one party currently recognised as THE most Indy party by the Scottish public i.e. SNP ….

    I also cannot help but think that should the SNP vote go down at GE then this will be a gift to Unionist parties who will present it as Scotland NOT wanting Independence..As will the MSM… God love them and their woeful predictability…but I am definitely not averse to considering WOS party as list vote at Holyrood election….BUT although it may confused some peeps I also see and understand the frustration many have with the SNP in trying to stop Brexit….in no doubt we have gained conversions BECAUSE of Brexit….will we keep these converts should the UKOK be SAVED from Brexit ?

    ps. By the time I have written this comment….everything above will probably have changed….Lol….eh modern times in Brexit UKOK what a time to TRY and be ALIVE….and survive…intact.

    Feel free to contradict….or chastise….am past point of no return like many others….not saying I’m right….tis but an opinion…open to it being shot down….incoming…. Lol

  205. Gerry says:

    “Westminster refused Section 30 in 2017.”
    NO THEY DIDN’T. Fkn Clown.

  206. Liz g says:

    Gerry @ 6.38
    Well where is it then?

  207. Gerry says:

    @liz There was no S30 request in 2017 – Show me it if you disagree.

  208. Ghillie says:

    Robert the Truth (seriously?)

    If Mhairi has transgressed then call it out.

    As for this Winger, you do not know me.

    Stuart, Wingers are here for you =)

  209. manandboy says:

    Laura Kuenssberg
    Just as Barnier arrives to see ambassadors, government source has just told me there will not be a deal tonight

    October 16, 2019

  210. Ghillie says:


    I applaud you =)

  211. Bill McLean says:

    As ever – division among the people who could save Scotland from this accursed union will lose us the battle! I could weep when I read the stupidity (my opinion) in these pages! It seems to me (again, my opinion) that ego is to be preserved at the cost of our independence! I wonder who are the fair-weather friends? Really fed up with ego protection and projection!

  212. Gerry says:

    @stu “Westminster refused Section 30 in 2017.” is a flat out lie, and you fkn know it. Show me the request.

  213. ahundredthidiot says:

    Ghillie @4:02

    ‘If you are just feeling worried and anxious about what lies ahead…….keep the heid’

    You’re damn right I am!

    I am very possibly bearing witness to the one and only chance in the past and next 300 years at independence breeze by without a whimper from my SNP!

    and you did twist my words a wee bit there Ghillie, I didnt say anyone or any of my time spent is Scotland is wasted, I said that I cannot waste my whole life fighting for an Independent Scotland. Its now or never for me, then I’m out. (Now being until the end of 2021 – that’s my self set deadline)

    and no, my name has nothing to do with the ‘so long as 100 of us….’ from the DoA, and I do (not unsurprisingly) get the odd allegation that I am just an idiot (which is fine), but its a simple dig at myself to keep me grounded. I was simply the hundredth idiot to answer the question correctly….and now I’m convinced I’m a genius. Although I do confess my arrogance in sometimes thinking everyone else is one of the other 99! (I actually stole it from an Ian M Banks book – God rest his soul).

  214. Ghillie says:

    Stuart Campbell, wow what a forment of stuff up above.

    Well life is getting very interesting just now.

    Please know this: Even if many folk, including me, disagree with what is presented, these same folk will have your back.

  215. Ian Brotherhood says:

    Apologies if this link has already been posted upthread.

    It’s by Gavin Barrie and pretty much covers all the points many of us would make if we could gather our thoughts as concisely.

    Those threatening to abandon this place might want to have a swatch at it before getting their coats.

  216. Ghillie says:

    OK you made me laugh there ahundrethidiot =)


  217. mr thms says:

    The Herald is now covering the story

    “Alister Jack signals creation of ‘devolution referee’ to arbitrate on disputes between UK and Scottish Governments”

    Since this is about devolved powers the EU has responsibility for, I would say the likelihood of UK and the EU announcing a deal on a Withdrawal Agreement and a ‘transitional arrangement’ are in betting terms are odds-on.

  218. Fireproofjim says:

    The potential border in the Irish Sea does not actually contradict the Act of Union of 1707 because Ireland was not a party to the treaty.
    At the risk of infringing on Robert Peffer’s territory I must point out that the Union was between Scotland and England and the United Kingdom refers only to those two countries.

  219. Liz g says:

    Gerry @ 6.45
    I can’t do links Gerry ,but your surely no denying that T May answered “now is not the time” it was pretty much saturation coverage .
    While you may not be a parent you’ve certainly been a child…
    And Not right now is up there with , maybe later and we’ll see , as in the real answer is no…. And unless you finished up with what you asked for … No remains the answer.

    If there had been no request why was May answering a question that haddnt been asked?
    What is it you think now wasn’t the time for?
    The Rev has linked to this a few times and Mibbi some kind Winger will too!
    In the meantime I’d love to know what you imagine T May was talking about?

  220. Gerry says:

    @liz g There was no S30 request made in 2017. That’s just a fact. It’s not up for debate. Sorry.

  221. laukat says:

    @Gerry @Liz G

    here is the letter that was sent by the FM

    Its not a demand for a section 30 order but a request for discussions to start between government officials to agree an order under section 30. So that would perhaps support @Gerry’s argument.

    However its difficult to see how the content of the FM’s next letter would differ much from this so @Liz G’s comments seem fair.

    Perhaps the next letter will be along the lines of ‘I previously requested discussions, I now insist that a section 30 order is provided to the Scottish Government by date x to allow a referendum to be held on date y’?

  222. Liz g says:

    Fireproofjim @ 7.05
    I’d argue differently…. E.G. Our tax money is spent there and our armed forces protecct/suppress it and vice versa.
    So it’s a part of the territory that the Union is comprised of and the parliament the UK created came to administer.

  223. Clapper57 says:

    @ Ghillie @ 6.52pm

    Thanks Ghillie.

    Actually I have a foot in both camps.

    I see the frustration of those who cannot understand the strategy of the SNP around Brexit ( and other issues) and I concur with that and yet I also see the logic of those who endorse continuing to support the SNP….but I guess my real anger is why is there such division among us all, at what seems like THE opportune moment for Indy, and why this division should even exist considering the circumstances we find ourselves in…thanks very much to the….Union (Non)…but when push comes to shove who will end up being the fall guy…or party…if Scotland does not get independence ?

    We all know as they all know too that this is an impossible situation for Scotland to be expected to accept….I mean everything pre/post 2014 and since 2016 ……no matter how much they, the Unionists, try to muddy the waters and cover their tracks with lies, there is no way that Scotland should allow themselves to be subjected to what any other ‘normal’ country would find inconceivable to tolerate.

    So what now….and when will it be and who will ensure it happens ?…..Da Da Da Da Daaaaaaaaaaaaaaaahhhhh.

    Aye there’s the rub a dub dub…..

  224. ahundredthidiot says:

    Ghillie @ 7:01

    I’ve taken a beating for Scotland – actually, more than one

    I’ve put my life on the line for Her partnership with England

    I gave up the career I loved because my boss was a Unionist lunatic.

    I wear my Scottish tattoos on the inside

    My Heart bleeds for some of my country folk

    I am the same as most people who come to this site.

    I want the best for my Country, but I am very frustrated.

    I wont give up on Her…..even after 2021….if God spares us.

  225. Gerry says:

    @laukat If it had been a formal s30 request, the refusal would have been disputed in court. See guidance notes for sch 5 here

  226. Liz g says:

    laukat @ 7.22
    Thank you so much for the link…
    I don’t see how that letter can be portrayed as anything other than asking for a section 30….
    Mibbi a request and not a demand but still an indication that a section 30 was being sought.

    Gerry @ 7.10
    Then what was the letter for?

  227. Gerry says:

    @liz it wasn’t a s30 request. Do you agree, and have you read the SA98 guidance for the court that I posted ?

  228. Liz g says:

    Gerry @ 7.26
    Are you basing your argument on what Nicola didn’t do?

  229. Scott says:

    I don’t recall the exact words of Iain Duncan Smith on RS tonight but when asked about Ireland getting special treatment why not Scotland,well SNP want independence something to that effect proof now that they don’t give a monkeys about us something we have know all along now we have the truth,
    Hell mend them as my Grannie used to say.

  230. Cubby says:


    Absolutely spot on. You may not post that often but when you do they are long posts and right on the money.

    You can be against self ID, still want independence and realise that at this point in time you should give the SNP every opportunity to deliver independence. All SNP members should express their dissatisfaction with the GRA and then resign telling them why if they are still not happy. But still vote SNP for the moment .

  231. laukat says:

    @Gerry – I don’t disagree with you. I think the way the FM presented the letter I linked to (remember the photo of her penning the letter in Bute house?) gave the impression that it was request for a section 30 order. In reality its a request for discussion on a Section 30 order.

    It begs the question of what was the purpose of the FM sending that letter back in 2017? Was she testing the political waters, was she looking for a knock back to gain political traction or was it part of a legal set of hurdles?

    I would say that the FM to my knowledge never denied at the time that the letter sent in 2017 was a S30 request so its no wonder that people think she did request it. Perhaps writing that letter in 2017 was mainly about appeasing demands for action from impatient Indpendence supporters?

  232. Jock McDonnell says:

    @ Fireproofjim

    True – but did Ireland joining the UK alter the terms of the 1707 Treaty ? I’d say not.
    The UK is a single customs zone. Which leads to NI being somewhat semi-detached from the UK if it isn’t part of the UK customs area.

  233. dadsarmy says:

    8.c. is interesting: “ engage with interested parties at an early stage

  234. Cubby says:


    Maybe you are not such an idiot after all.

  235. RM says:

    It’s just a pity that every msp politician and SNP politicians down at Westminster weren’t all independent so they didn’t have to tow the party line, a lot of them are being curtailed from saying what they may really think, it would be better if all politicians were independent then they could be more genuine with the people who vote them in, a lot of followers.

  236. dadsarmy says:

    and I really like d. of course:

    d. Bear in mind that inserting new reservations may affect the approach the courts take to the interpretation of existing ones (for example if the new amendments are more detailed than the existing entries, particularly those in the same Head). Seeking to achieve greater certainty in one context may have the unintended consequence of introducing uncertainty elsewhere.

    Cabinet Office (Last Updated – November 2011)

    Yes, before the 2013/14 S30.

  237. Essexexile says:

    Looking at the Brexit talks it seems that those with a sweet tooth will be well fed in the next few days as a gigantic amount of fudge is about to be handed out.
    In a desperate effort to avoid another extension a half arsed deal will be agreed in which just about every detail ‘will follow’.
    Or they’ll all decide the deal is so embarrassingly sketchy that they’ve no option but to agree a further extension.
    Six and two threes.

  238. beflox says:

    We’re back to “anyone who doesn’t agree with me can fuck off” …

  239. beflox says:

    There is one group of people who are responsible for us not getting another referendum easily, if ever and that’s the people who voted NO the last time. It’s thanks to them that every argument we have for holding a referendum is met with “Scotland chose to stay in the UK in 2014”. That’s the answer to every justification. It’s not because of Nicola Sturgeon, or SNP policy, or transsexuals, or whoever the fuck else you can dredge up – it’s thanks to everyone who voted NO.

  240. Ghillie says:

    Oh wow! Look at that!

    Cubby is being nice to ahundrethidiot =)

    So I achieved a wee something good after all 🙂

  241. Tam the Bam. says:

    I despair.
    On here..long-time Wingers (I count myself in that number though rarely post…except when something gets my attention)folk are becoming (dare I say it) a tad pedantic.
    Just watched CH4 News with an interview between Alex Thompson and a member of the New IRA.

    That’s where we are folks…just thought I’d remind you things are happening outside the Wings bubble.

  242. Cubby says:


    It was a bit of convenient politicking by both Sturgeon and May. They were both made to look good in front of their own supporters. If it had been a formal request there would have to have been a formal response. It suited both of them at the time. Sturgeon in particular after the fall in vote in 2017 was never going to formalise the request. Therefore we need to keep the SNP vote high in the forthcoming GE to keep the pressure up.

    It’s history now so I don’t understand why people are getting so worked up about it. There was a request for discussions around a sect 30 but not a formal request for a sect 30. It suited both May and Sturgeon to leave it at that.

  243. dadsarmy says:

    The date of that review is very strange. At that time Cameron was just about pushing to do the Referendum himself, with Westminster organising and holding it. It could be argued that pushed Salmond into saying he’d do it. In January there was Sturgeon’s Claim of Right, and shortly after if I have the time right, it was agreed the ScotGov would hold the Ref, and some time after negotiations started with Sturgeon and Moore, and less directly Salmond and Cameron.

    Yet the date of that Devolution Guidance Note 14 is Nov 2011, so it looks like Cameron anticipated it WOULD be a ScotParl organised Referendum, and was getting advice on what was the position.

  244. mike cassidy says:

    For those who think GRA is not relevant, affects a tiny amount of people, has been kicked into touch ……

    Say hello to the Thought Police

  245. jfngw says:

    Latest SNP bad is they did not spend enough at the EU referendum, despite Scotland voting 62% Remain, ACH of course apoplectic at this Tom Gordon revelation.

    Of course to overturn the result it would have required a turnout of over 99% in Scotland and everybody that did not vote would need to have voted Remain. Basically a waste of SNP money to achieve nothing, they don’t have the magic money tree the LibDem’s seem to be able to draw upon.

  246. Iain More says:

    What is the plan if a Section 30 order isn’t granted? I still see no plan in the very real event that no such Order is granted. I for one don’t trust the effin Labour Party to grant one if that is what folks are hoping for. I don’t actually expect them to win any Brit GE and the Tories arent going to grant one that is for sure.

    So I ask again? What is the “Real” Plan?

  247. Cubby says:


    Credit where credit is due.

  248. dadsarmy says:

    It makes you think really; Sturgeon and May doing the paso doble in 2017, were Cameron and Salmond at it in 2011/12 as well?

  249. Capella says:

    @ mike cassidy – and here is a Spectator article about the wave of crime hitting Oxford – police are out detecting the perpetrators who have put up stickers saying “Woman – an adult human female” and similar scurrilous hate speech. Shocking.

    There is a proposal that sentencing minimum should be 6 months in England.

  250. mike cassidy says:

    Someone asked earlier whether transwomen would be eligible for SNP allwomen shortlists.

    I would presume so -anybody got info on that.

    Its already the case with Labour.

    And this is how Labour’s first transgender women’s officer is celebrating Pronoun Day.

  251. Clapper57 says:

    We’ve had red lines from Theresa May.

    The tasteless sentiment of blood red lines from Arlene Foster.

    Seems to be Bojo has backtracked on his lines as a few lines he stated were Red have now become dead.

    And yet on Scotland he insists he will not move the line he has drawn….this line apparently will not be erased.

    Confucius say move lines on NI when no impact on England but lines cannot be moved when obvious there is a financial impact for England….in English this means more important to keep the lines drawn for one, Scotland, and erase the lines for the other one, NI, as one, Scotland, more financially beneficial to England than the other one , NI….

    Well either that or old Bojo is just a sentimental wee soul who loves us so much he cannot bear to think we are no longer part of HIS Union and thus are cast out into the big bad world no longer safe and stable under the broad shoulders of the UKOK…

    No sorry even I draw the line at that ….. lol

  252. Ghillie says:

    Well thank you 🙂

  253. Ghillie says:


    Boris Trump is just such a wee soul so he is 🙂

    If we could just keep him napping or in his bath.

    Frankly, I blame the nannies.

  254. Terrycallachan says:

    We could all stop voting for the SNP

    Because of the gender recognition self ID consultation

    Labour or Tory or Lib Dem’s get all the Scottish seats in Westminster

    Brexit crunches Scotland even more because independence support appears to have gone

    What then ?

    Forget a wings party for list seats
    If SNP don’t get nearly all the seats in Westminster the drive for more independence seats in Holyrood will diminish

    A Scottish independence referendum will be further out of reach than it is right now

    Scottish independence allows Scotland to have elections without England and its supporting media interfering we can have our own referendums in future on things like gender recognition
    Like self ID
    Anything at all really
    And we can replace any government that rules over us anytime we want to do so

    So plain as day it’s got to be Scottish independence then sort out our problems
    Scottish independence will only come if you vote for SNP
    Nobody else will get you independence
    If you think there is another party that can please tell me who it is

  255. Douglas says:

    Fireproofjim says:
    16 October, 2019 at 7:05 pm

    Re: The potential border in the Irish Sea does not actually contradict the Act of Union of 1707 because Ireland was not a party to the treaty.

    Surely, the “That all Parts of the united Kingdon, for ever, from and after the Union, shall have the same Allowances, Encouragements, and Drawbacks, and under the same Prohibitions, Restrictions, and Regulations of Trade, etc” should cover any and all changes to the British State since 1707 thus the so-called new deal is in breach of the Treaty of Union and the Union can be dissolved.

    I ask this entirely out of curiosity as I know many people here have a more in depth knowledge than me on these matters.

  256. John Jones says:

    Being a crusty old got I’m dead against this GRA stuff, however the real job is for us to get Indy, so stick this on the back burner until after the next Holyrood election then we should have plenty of time to fully discuss this, referendum (to be) held and results making everything clear and everyone settled down with their heads on straight. It won’t cause much discomfort to anybody to wait such a short time after I’ve waited over 60 years to get this far. And I want to see Scotland as a free country before I go.

  257. Lenny Hartley says:

    Terry Callachan, FFS how many times has it to be spelt out to you that the main issue with GRA is that the mainstream media will paint the SNP as a party that is going to allow Paedophiles, R a p i s ts and other sexual predator s into Woman only safe spaces. When they start that campaign it will be shock and awe aimed at females with all sort of graphic detail on whats going to happen to their little girl, mother, aunty, granny, themself. At one stroke 52% of the population will be questioning if they will vote for the SNP and enough to make the difference will either not vote or vote for a Unionist party because the Greens have the same agenda.
    If the SNP hierachy do not see the damage this can do to the Independence cause they are not fit for office. So hopefully sense will prevail and this will be properly parked until after Indy and this contensious issue can be addressed then.

  258. Robert Peffers says:

    @Lenny Hartley says: 16 October, 2019 at 10:28 am:

    ” … Where is International law now?”

    It is NOT interfering in a country that has a written constitution that states Catalonia is an integral part of Spain and that means those involved in the Catalonian campaign for independence are indeed breaking Spanish law. Still and all the Spanish authorities have overstepped the mark but EU law states the EU should not interfere in member states internal affairs.

    None of which has the slightest thing to do with the situation of the two equally sovereign partners of the United Kingdom. A United Kingdom that has no other written constitution than the Treaty of Union to which both kingdoms are equally sovereign partners.

    Not to mention that the Inner Court of Session recently proved a point I made weeks ago here on Wings, that the Inner ?Court of Session had to reach the decision they took and that The UK Supreme Court had no other option than to uphold the Inner Court of Session’s decision.

    However, You cannot expect that Wings Over Scotland, that well known anti-SNP, (a.k.a. anti-Scottish Independence blog), would do other than attempt to run down the SNP and harm Scottish Independence.

    See you all after independence, Bye now.

  259. Paul says:

    I’m sick of the constant anti SNP tripe put out by this site that’s it I am no longer going to look at it again you are failing us STU what’s wrong has MI5 got to you?

  260. Still Positive says:

    John Jones @ 8.57

    Totally agree.

  261. Capella says:

    Good interview with Joanna Cherry in Holyrood magazine. Sorry if this has been linked to already, I’m losing track of where we are here with so many people, who have not posted before, popping in to say they are not posting again.

    Joanna is on the side of the angels and doing great work for the SNP and Independence. So, of course, she too has been the target for accusations of transphobia.,with-a-cherry-on-top-exclusive-interview-with-joanna-cherry_14544.htm

  262. Black Donald says:

    I think that what is happening on this site is a timely warning of the risk of what a Wings over Scotland party could do to the YES movement. I’m seeing a lot of acrimony and division (interspersed with occasional excellent Winger comments). Some very very good people are being driven away.

    Many on this site have been SNP for decades. The SNP have done really well so far getting us to this point. Really well. These folks don’t take kindly to cynicism about the SNP. Understandable.

    I think criticism of the SNP over independence strategy is premature. I don’t think I would be in a very different place if was in charge. I would be playing my cards very close to my chest. Give them no hints.

    Once SNP policy is out in the open, it becomes subject to a tsunami of massive media attack, regardless of merit. Named person, Offensive Behaviour at Football, GRA. The media to me is just a propaganda arm of government. They have total control of communications. Tell them nothing.

    I’m still broadly in favour of a Wings party, if it becomes required. It could make a difference at Holyrood, not least in ensuring a pro Indy majority. It could provide a vehicle for the excellent Craig Murray, WGD types. It would ensure Wings gets its deserved place in the history of the Scottish independence movement.

    Rev Stu shoots from the hip. I like his style. He has a track record of being right. I listen. I worry. It’s his blog.

    Prior to independence though, I believe it is essential to give due consideration to the unity of the Yes movement and focus our main attacks on the opposition.

    Anyway, a lot of the discord here is just the work of government trolls. Infesting social media. Bringing the fine British army into disrepute. From the Thin Red Line to throwing in psyops wobblers on some guy’s blog. Dear, dear. Suppressing the democracy of their own people. People who give generously at Remembrance. People who leave legacies to Erskine. They need to find something productive to do with their lives. Perhaps they should join the SNP and help work to make the world a better place.

    It’s got so bad, it’s like Butch Cassidy and the Sundance Kid…

    “Who are those guys? They just keep coming on and on.”

    “The one with the hat is Coco the Clown”

  263. Capella says:

    Alex Salmond’s tweet on the Irish Border and BREXIT deal – from Stu’s twitter:

  264. Lenny Hartley says:

    Robert Peffers, thought you were a lurker? Obviously you dont understand what the word means.
    In case you also didnt understand when I asked where was International law for the Catalonians , it was in response to a comment that International law would ride to the help of Scotland if Westminster refused a second Independence referendum. You know all that pish about “every people has the right to choose self determination etc” it does not say anything in the UN Declaration of Human Rights except for Catalonians,
    On another topic is it just me but anybody noticed the bulk of people who are saying that Stu has lost the plot and they are no longer going to financially support this blog are folk who have never posted before. Strange that.
    If any SNP supporter or member wants the issue of self ID go away they should be letting their elected SNP representative know of the concerns of many Yes voters that the SNP’ s putting their head in the sand on this issue is causing concern. There is only one way this issue will be put to bed and that is for the SNP to announce that they are no longer going forward with this reform.

  265. dadsarmy says:

    So, more Court of Session action tomorrow and Friday!

    The legal team is Aidan O’Neill QC, George Peretz QC instructed by Elaine Motion of Balfour + Manson.

    Isn’t that a great name for a Solicitor – Elaine Motion?


    Joanna Cherry keeping Tory feet to the fire in this video. Catch it now.

    Not letting the minister off the hook.

  267. Bob Mack says:

    Peffers adieu.
    Paul adieu

    Anybody else?

  268. twathater says:

    @ Ghillie says:
    16 October, 2019 at 3:04 pm

    mogabee, women with any sense will realise that the transgender issue will not be going away any time soon.

    And then a cold clear look at what is needed to recognise the needs of all newly emerging groups in whatever capacity, taking into account the rights and needs of everyone. That is not rocket science.
    Stuart. Stop spreading panic
    Rather condescending and disparaging to call people who have a different opinion to you senseless , your sisters and others who have GRAVE concerns re this policy are not reassured by SAS’s statement to the PRIDE march that the SNP are determined to implement this policy

    It is up to the SNP govt to reassure the at least 52% of the population who have problems with this policy by shelving it until after independence rather than ignoring their concerns

  269. dadsarmy says:

    Julie Andrews?

  270. Andrew Dunk says:

    Is there any chance at all during one of our most turbulent periods in our history that we can actually stop speaking about self ID, transgender issues for one millisecond and speak about SCOTLAND? Yes, remember that place, SCOTLAND, the place most of us on here speak about! The whole ID, transgender issue is something that can be sorted out later after independence, if we get it that is.

    I don’t see anyone here talking about animal rights, farming or fishing rights in Scotland! these are far bigger issues than self ID and will cost maybe just about the same amount of lost votes than the women who will be pissed off by the self ID issue. So, personally I would rather drop this self ID issue for the moment. Yes, it is affecting certain party members etc. in the SNP and ultimately will affect women’s rights to privacy etc. but I guarantee next week it will be yesterdays news in terms of headlines. To be honest it isn’t even headlines in any of the papers, which quite rightly is why Stu brought it up in the first place.

    If you want self ID, just say you are Scottish! 🙂 the self ID stuff is on other threads in this website for further discussion, although it is important, it is getting a bit boring.

    Live long and prosper.

  271. crazycat says:

    I’m relieved to see that I am not alone in noticing that many of the posters announcing their departure are posting under names I had never seen before – I was beginning to wonder if I was imagining this.

    So thank you, Capella and Lenny, for confirming that there appear to be people signing up purely in order to flounce off. Since they have not previously contributed anything, I fail to see why they might be missed.

  272. Daisy Walker says:

    So the Good Law Project are using an amendment of an act put in by Reece-Mogg of all people – about VAT levels between Ireland, NI and mainland UK, level playing fields, and taking the Government to court over it.

    Hmm that’s interesting – I wonder if they win, they will establish a legal precedent similar to that speculated on by ourselves on here about the fundamental principle of the Acts of Union – i.e. that all parts of the UK are to be able to trade equally.

    Something to think about.

  273. Bob Mack says:

    Hopefully now all the quitters are heading to the Wings exit door, we become more focused.

    Simply, we have to win one battle at a time.I think Brexit is gone. It looks like a deal is going through, which gives us plenty of ammunition, We now have to maximise all our positives. That said the SNP must play its part too.

    GRA into the long grass very publicly.

    Demand section 30 ASAP.

    In house cleansing of activists causing disharmony. Joanna Cherry confirms this is the case.

    Clear messages about priority of indyref before and after General election.

    That is fair is it not ?

  274. Clapper57 says:

    @ dadsarmy @ 9.41pm

    I think you will find she was also ‘adieu adieu’….as opposed to just ‘adieu’….pedantic I know dadsarmy….but that’s how I roll…so…so long…farewell…Aufwiedersehn…goodnight.

    Have a good evening

  275. Clapper57 says:

    @ Me @ 9.41pm

    Hey dadsarmy… I added an extra ‘so’ in my comment above so that you too can be pedantic…if you ‘so’ wish…Lol

  276. Capella says:

    @ crazycat – yes it’s delightful to see a familiar name – even Nana has posted today! 🙂

    But, in spite of all the complaints, once the campaign gets underway, I’m sure everyone will be urging Stu to get back to attacking the media and the unionists and get the WBB out.

  277. dadsarmy says:

    @Daisy Walker
    Hopefully. Don’t know if Cherry is in this one, or if Maugham is just using the CoS for the purpose of an interim interdict, perhaps on the basis that background material is already submitted. Nothing on Cherry’s twitter.

    Ah well, as they say, Wings is so for pedants.

  278. Doug Bryce says:

    Stu Campbell clearly hates the SNP.

    Remind me again why I would lend him my vote?

  279. Bob Mack says:

    @Doug Bryce,

    Your choice entire!y whether you do or dont.

  280. Gerry says:

    Wings was fine in it’s day. Stu’s ego did for it in the end.
    Stick to what you’re good at and try not to confuse your ambitions with your abilities.

  281. ben madigan says:

    For everyone that’s watching the Hidden History of the Troubles (BBC Spotlight series) – here’s episode 6, showing that Loyalists, police and security forces colluded to murder over 100 members of Catholics/Nationalists and republican families in Mid-Ulster

  282. Terrycallachan says:

    Lenny Hartley….don’t be stupid

    The Scottish government hasn’t decided anything yet with regards their review of the gender recognition act 2004

    It’s a Scottish government review
    Not an SNP review you idiot

    Nothing whatsoever has been decided, zero , zilch , stupid people come away with idiotic scare stories that have no credence at all, get al life .

  283. Alabaman says:

    In the forth coming referendum, and there will be one, even if it’s later, rather than sooner.
    One of the pro-independence blogs which the Unionist would definitely be very,very wary of is “WINGS”, but their fears will be somewhat dampened with the news of disquiet in this site.
    Stew, please take heed of views from your oldest followers.

  284. Effijy says:

    Keep Calm

    Leave the bait on the hook.

    Keep your nerve for 1 more week

    Peace on earth and mercy mild
    Or Boris Johnson will your Scottish child.

  285. JaMur says:

    What the fuck has happened to this site?

    I’ve been a keen follower of wings since 2013. Spent my own money promoting wings but sadly its time for a break. Its like the yoon stream now. SNP BAD. Nothing but arguments between wingers . I’m frustrated at the lack of progress by the SNP and feel they need to get their shit together but only they can deliver independence. I’m sure stu will tel me to fuck off and ban me but so be it. I’ve had enough of the toxicity. Its depressing and does not motivate anyone.

    As for the transphobia……

  286. laukat says:

    I notice quite a few comments writing off Stuart Campbell

    This site and Stuart Campbell are and will be instrumental to achieving independence. I loved Wings Over Scotland because it was a brutal dissection of the media, political parties and politicians. The truth was and is the important aspect.

    Just because @Rev Stu has pointed out the political failings of the SNP shouldn’t be a reason to criticise Wings Over Scotland but should be seen as a valuable self critique helping the SNP to get back on a course that will deliver Independence.

    I hold in high esteem Willie McRae, Jim Sillars, Margo McDonald, Winnie Ewing, Alex Salmond and Nicola Sturgeon. When the history of how Scotland achieved Independence is written all of those and others will be correcetly recognised. Stuart Campbell will deserve his place in that list.

  287. Lenny Hartley says:

    Terry Calachan by fuck you are a stupid twat, its Scottish Government not SNP,

    If it wasnt so fucking serious i would be falling off my chair laughing at your utter fuckwittery.

  288. Heart of Galloway says:

    For the avoidance of doubt: “If Scotland is removed from the European Union against our democratic will then the SG will take ALL STEPS NECESSARY to organise a referendum on independence and commence preparations with the EU for pre-accession and accession talks as an applicant state.” (My emphasis)

    The above was the topical resolution agreed unanimously at SNP conference yesterday. It not only
    commits the party to IR2 next year but also, critically, activates the lifeline to the EU to which I have alluded before.

    With respect Stu, your pessimism on IndyRef2 is misplaced. You will have our complete support when you take “all steps necessary” to help win IR2.

  289. Bob Mack says:

    Who the feck is JaMur?

    Never heard of them. Arrives to announce their departure.

  290. laukat says:

    RE:Brexit – anyone else think the last couple of days extra effort for a deal are just the EU manoeuvring to show the blame lies with Bojo and the DUP for the inevitable ‘no deal’?

    I can’t see how any amount of money makes the DUP accept a border in the sea and I can’t see how the EU accepts a backtop that Stormont could vote out of existent. To me everything we’ve heard over the last couple of days is a fantasy.

    I think it suits Bojo and the EU for this fantasy situation to exist until next week. I think the EU are sick of he UK and don’t want to extend. I also think Bojo’s plan is to say on the 19th that we are close and if parliament wll set aside the Ben act he can conclude a deal. Roll on 30th October and talks break down with no obligation to extend therefore leaving only ‘no deal’.

  291. Iain mhor says:

    I have no idea if there is to be a referendum next year. I do know (suspect) and said as much previously, that there tends only to be two windows for any election. ‘Spring & Autumn; because Winter bad and Summer holidays bad. Not impossible but bad.
    I can’t see Spring next year, because that is a winter campaign running hard in the middle of Brexit – which leaves Autumn (ha autumn leaves!) So if there is to be one, in my mind, it can only be then. Timelines and the technicalities for achieving that, I’ll leave to those who know best. I’m lead to believe (though reserve judgement) there is ‘no time’ to process this.

    After Mike Russell’s tweet about ‘looking forward to contesting the 2021 Scottish elections against the Lib Dems’, I felt that there was no inclination in the inner heirarchy of the SNP to hold a referendum in 2020 (I posted that previously too) For surely, one would be ‘looking forward’ to contesting an Indyref or ‘looking forward’ to Independence negotiations following a successful Indyref YES vote.
    It was an odd tweet to me then and niggles now.

    For that reason, I inclined to suspect that the idea of a 2020 Indyref is smoke & mirrors. Not to say that machinery is not being put in place, to possibly be ready off the mark in the event of some unforseen buggery, in the fast moving and convoluted Brexit process. I’d like to see it, but I have little hope of it. Neither it seemed did Mike Russell.

    Stu has said the same about no Indyref next year several times, hence the proposition to stand a Wings list in 2021. What I’ve yet to see is a forward looking analysis of what the political situation might look like in Spring of 2021.
    I don’t think I have the political nous to do so, other than.say nothing will have changed. We’ll still be in Brexit settlement negotitiations, in a transitional phase with the EU. The UK will officially have left the aegis of the EU, the Tories will still be in Government, but propped up by the LibDems and not the DUP – NI will be under direct rule.

    Scotland will be, as ever, nowhere and with zero MEP’s to boot.
    Independence will still be polling in the 50%+ mark but the SNP will have lost Green Indy support after they climb into bed with Labour and they both begin to fade like the judgement of Thanos, into the ether of obscurity in Scottish politics.
    There arises another Indy Party set up from splitters within the SNP at this time, and they will have unofficially endorsed list Indy candidates from yet another obscure Indy Party.

    This of course further fragments SNP support, however does consolidate a substantial coalition Indy majority at Holyrood. However, just as proceedings are underway to demand a Section 8 for Scotland, an advanced scout force from the planet Ceres, plunges Scotland into darkness with an attack on the electrical grid. Suspecting deep state interference from hacktivist within GCHQ, Doric sleeper agents within MI6, activate counter insurgency cells throughout the North East…
    No, I’ve got nothing frankly…anyone else?

  292. Cubby says:


    I wouldn’t put it past the liar Johnson to be thinking of some sort of plan like that.

  293. Joe says:

    Just wanted to make a very ugly observation. NI is getting political and economic consideration for the exact same reasons that people take the piss out of Jesus and not muhammad. Unfortunately violence is still, and will continue to be, the gold standard from which all negotiations derive their value. People keen to block democratic developments would do well to consider that.

  294. Hairy Jack says:

    The SNP have gone full Nu-Labour. Tin-eared, arrogant, and out of touch. A party capable of inflicting gender ‘self-id’ laws on an unwilling population is a party gone RANCID. If they can get something as startlingly wrong as this, then they cannot be trusted with anything.

    I will never vote SNP while self-id is their policy and MPs like Ms Black refer to me as a ‘Jeremy Hunt’, because the fact that my biology forces me to live my life as a female is of more fundamental importance to me than whatever nationality I hold. Interestingly the Tories have blocked self-id in England and Wales for now. Consequently I would much rather vote for them – with all that entails for Scotland and it’s perpetual floundering over independence – than the SNP. And I’m a 35 year old liberal vegan with two university degrees and a minimum wage job.

    Serious question to all the SNP cultists trashing Stu – at what point would you seriously question your SNP vote? If Nicola Sturgeon decided to bring back hanging? Deport English people? Ban abortion and contraception? Or would you still be there cheering them on, even if the SNP literally made Mein Kampf their manifesto pledge – just because ‘you can vote them out once Scotland is independent’??

  295. defo says:

    Hi academics of the future.
    Yes, you’re right.
    Collective psychosis, brought on by information overload.

  296. Joe says:

    Of course, my previous point can be more nuanced. We can swap violence for ‘force’. But force requires some sort of physical, economic or legal action. Without any of those backing a conversation about Scottish independence you might as well be pissing into the wind..or enjoying your Westminster paycheck

  297. Terrycallachan says:

    Here is a good article citing some of the difficulties with gender self ID

    I’m absolutely certain that the Scottish government will take account of such difficulties

  298. Cubby says:

    Brexit Debate on C5 with Jeremy Vine

    A woman from Scotland says she is proud to be Scottish (yes you guessed it) but I am British as well. She then rubbishes the demand for Indyref2 and says it will be divisive. Why do all the Britnats always say that they are proud Scots but…… it really is weird. It’s like they have to remind themselves they are Scottish.

    Initially felt sorry for Joanna Cherry as she was sitting in the middle of a three person panel surrounded by the Tory Lord Howard and the total bam Wetherspoon. Changed my mind quickly as she more than held her own against two ultra Brexiteers. She was wearing a good sized YES badge. Nice touch but ignored by Vine.

    Howard has a total brass neck as he was rabbitting on about democracy and sits in the House of Lords. Wetherspoon was just strange.

    The main impression was the massive divide and anger building up in England, particularly in the no deal Brexiteers.

  299. Terrycallachan says:

    Lenny Hartley
    By fuck you are a stupid twat

    See I can call you what you call me

    Bye Lenny

  300. ScotsRenewables says:

    Amazing isn’t it?

    All these new posters jumping on the ‘trash the SNP’ bandwagon claiming they are right behind Stu Campbell.

    Aye, right. Talk about Yooney Tunes.

  301. Cubby says:

    I would recommend WGD’s most recent post.

  302. dakk says:

    @ Hairy Jack

    You are Alister Jack’s wife, and I claim my 5 guineas.

  303. Terrycallachan says:

    Lenny Hartley your post of 1057pm

    You need to lose a few stones around that belly Lenny before you start insulting people

  304. mr thms says:

    Capella @ 9:30 pm

    For this to happen would the EU have to amend the original Treaty of Rome, renamed The Treaty on the Functioning of the European Union?

    And would the constitution of the UK need to be amended to allow Northern Ireland to make its own treaty with the EU, while remaining a part of the UK?

    The scenario reminds me of a process, I read years ago for the internal enlargement of the EU.

    It would be good news for Scotland if it happens.

  305. Joe says:

    @ ScotsRenewables

    Theres a lot of people who are pro indy and coming to loathe the SNP. I personally saw the direction things were going when our arse of a first minister endorsed Clinton. Because shes a woman. Identity politics tends to seem like a bad idea to people with discernment

  306. Capella says:

    So, to summerise, the message from the newcomers is – we must abandon Nicola Sturgeon, the SNP and Wings Over Scotland?

    Have I got that right?

    I think you have rather overdone it today. Had you been a bit more “concerned” you might have sounded plausible.

    BREXIT is stalled again. Jolyon Maugham has a new Court of Session petition request for Friday. Looks like another Extension Rebellion on the horizon. The end game may be even bumpier than expected. Fasten your seatbelts. Prepare for more incoming flak.

  307. Stu has a block list on his twitter account,mostly frothing yoons and some odds and ends of the woke Yes movement,

    i wonder if he could fit some sort of blocker on the Wings site ,

    where you could filter out the obvious concern trolls,pretendy patriots,and those whose sole purpose is not debate but division,

    it would certainly save time having to scoll past their slaverings.

  308. Famous15 says:

    I think the SNP is basically good. I think it tries too hard when it comes to feminist issues particularly where tiny minorities are hijacking feminism and gay rights and distorting what is good,moral and healthy. You know who you are!

    I listened very carefully to every word of Nicola Sturgeon’s conference speech and understand where she is coming from and more importantly the direction she is taking the party. She has a fine balancing act to do to press the GO button for Indyref2 and not get blamed for the inevitable Brexit disaster. Boris and Gove and IAin Duncan Smith have already tried to shoehorn the SNP into the target for blame.

    I do not agree with Stu on timing but I wish wholeheartedly for the need for Independence so I will continue to support him AND the SNP.

  309. Clapper57 says:

    Scottish Lib Dem MP Jamie Stone tweeted the following :

    “If the SNP cannot deliver on broadband, the UK Gov must step in and ensure my constituents aren’t treated as second class citizen” .

    ( Jamie another Unionist oblivious to reserved and devolved issues…quelle surprise…though sure he knows but could be another ‘job done’ exercise in #SNPBAD )….attached to this was him directing this question to Patel the Home sec from Hell in HOC.

    My oh my I have lost count just how many Scottish Tory MP’s have also raised this same issue on twitter….

    Also this evening Stephen Kerr Scottish Tory MP on Scotland Tonight said the same thing as a recent Alex Cole Hamilton tweet re :

    ” The SNP spent more chasing votes in Shetland than they did fighting for the votes in EU Referendum ”

    Now call me cynical but is there some NEW alignment going on with these two parties north of the border ?…it feels almost like a concerted SNPBAD attack…calculated by devious former Union uber alles bed fellows who are perhaps more desperate to save THE more important Union, to them, over the other Union.

    Perhaps I am suggesting this via the following :

    23 September 2019 in Fraserburgh an event :

    Titled : Scotland Matters

    Contributors :

    Peter Chapman – Conservative
    Mike Rumbles – Lib dem
    Plus Councillor Mark Findlater ( Conservative)

    A new forum and network for people for people who want :

    Scotland to remain in UK
    The SNP defeated and out of government
    Opposition parties to start opposing the SNP
    Start proposing policies
    Win 2021 election
    Fix and transform Scotland

    Meet people just like you
    Find out what you can do to..Fix , Transform and save Scotland


    Let’s keep an eye on this and see how many more uncanny similiar ‘wee digs’ and consensus of opinion our Scottish Unionists namely Tory and Lib Dems seem to be at one with…..a concerted Tory/Lib Dem preemptive damage limitation exercise to try to save the Union and try to ward off the inevitable strong pro Indy movement increasing within Scotland…thanks to..but not exclusive to…Brexit.

    My bet is that the above examples will not be the only instances of this spooky ‘weak minds think alike’ phenomenon ….seems to me their wee ‘forum’ ‘network’ is being put into action…oh my what sneaky sheeites they truly are…..but fortunately…we see them coming…..yawn.

  310. Joe says:

    To be honest i wasnt looking much at WOS as Brexit (clean and swift) is my priority for now. However i noticed WOS starting to echo my own misgivings. Scottish people need to wake up and stop fkng sleep walking. The current SNP have taken the biggest support and a possible cast iron mandate and farted it into the winds of social justice and the EU.

  311. Capella says:

    @ mr thms – well the scenario has already changed since Alex Salmond tweeted! See comment above re pending court hearing. Looks like another extension then back to the drawing board.

    However, my guess is that a border down the Irish Sea is BJs only option. It probably would not break the Union Treaty but the 2018 taxation bill which Jolyon Maugham is going to court over. So that wouldn’t require a change in EU law AFAIK. But it would mean an amendment to UK law.

    More delay.

  312. Joe says:

    @ Scot Finlayson

    I absolutely love it when someone supposes to know the ‘real’ intent behind what someone posts and then wishes to block them for it. How very…snp/soviet block. I wish i could read minds and mete out censorship without a trace of doubt that just maybe im the one with the bad intent

  313. @Bob Mack 9.34 and 10.02

    you would not be a big loss yourself mate. Have you ever done anything useful?

    I don’t recall anyone proposing you as spokesperson

    Catch yourself on

  314. mr thms says:

    Capella @ 12:30 am.

    Thank you for your reply.

    Theresa May’s Withdrawal Agreement included a ‘transitional arrangement’ until until 31st December 2020.

    In all probability the Boris Johnson WA will also come with a ‘transitional arrangement’ legal action would be unnecessary since the whole of the UK will still be in the CU during that period.

    I think the news of a third party arbitrator to resolve disputes between Westminster and Holyrood on returning devolved powers is the clearest indication that a deal has been struck between Scotland, the UK and the EU.

    I have always felt the real purpose behind Article 50 was to facilitate an orderly dissolution of the UK and the entry of the successor states into the EU.

  315. Sunshine says:

    Jeez the site owner coming in for some serious insults today and people going off in a huff, again!
    The more personal digs at him take some brass neck.
    I had my say last year at this time and thought maybe I am wrong, let’s see how things play out. Ian Blackford raising my hopes, nearly every week telling us that “Scotland will not sit idly by and allow itself to be dragged out of the EU”, and here we are.
    I think that Stu is correct and that we will be heading for a 2021 election seeking another mandate at Holyrood.
    I have always believed that it will be Englands nationalism that will secure our independence and nothing that we alone do.
    It might be all these court cases in the Scottish courts cause such anger and resentment that England demands we leave.
    Just something unexpected that will set off a chain of events and we will be gone.
    No great plan, secret strategy, or plan B. Just unintended consequences.

  316. Liz g says:

    Sunshine @ 1.23
    Oh I’ve a notion that Iain Blackford was talking about something else entirely.

  317. Capella says:

    BBC publishing helpful advice on FOI reqests. Apperently the number has soared in the last year. Could it be that the extra journalists the BBC is helping the press to fund are busy looking for horror stories?

    Record number of Freedom of Information requests made –

    Is Scotland’s Freedom of Information law fit for a data-rich age? –

  318. Capella says:

    A strange comment on how the Lib Dems train members to smear Jeremy Corbyn (as yet another Labour MP announces quitting Labour because JC is anti-semitic).

  319. Robert J. Sutherland says:

    Fireproofjim @ 19:05 (16.Oct),
    Douglas @ 20:35 (16.Oct),
    Capella @ 06:45,

    I believe Douglas is correct, not only in the proactive effect of the Treaty of Union, which (on a constitutional basis) prohibits future changes to the termsof internal trade, but also because the same trade provisions were also enacted in the separate Acts of Union passed by the then Irish and GB Parliaments in merging in 1800.

    So FWIW I’m firmly of the opinion that any proposed EU border in the Irish Sea is a direct violation of the constitutional basis of the UK, thus incompatible with Art.50 of the Treaty of Lisbon, and legally challengeable both at home and at the EU level.

  320. Ian Brotherhood says:

    For those who may have been concerned about the disappearance of Donna Babbington’s Twitter account, it seems that she wasn’t suspended but has taken some time out.

    Also, the ‘Friends of Wings’ gathering in Dows (at Queen St station) Glasgow, on Fri Oct 25th goes ahead as planned. Some of us will be there mid-afternoon, assemble in downstairs bar, and when there’s enough of us to justify opening the upstairs bar it shall be done. Please bring some edibles, as previously.


  321. Jock McDonnell says:

    I have no difficulty with NI getting a special deal.
    I can only hope its not lost on my fellow Scots that we are getting Hee-Haw, that’s not the fault of NI. They are prepared to assert themselves, on both sides of the divide. We however shat ourselves & are now only to be patronised & ridiculed. Imagine voting for a party led by lackies like Davidson or Dugdale.

    How much more humiliation can we take ?

  322. Capella says:

    Alex Salmond show anaysis current BREXIT state of play:

  323. Sinky says:

    Scotland In Union getting two page piece in the North Briton newspaper telling Edinburgh readers that we are too poor to have self government.

    It’s time the SNP / Indy movement started to dismantle the Gers figures and rebutting claims that Scotland is an economic basket case.

    Whether we like it or not we must win or neutralise the economic case to win over sufficient soft No votes.

    We need to do more than just attacking Boris Johnson and the Tories that will win the day.

  324. Capella says:

    Sentencing Council in England tells judges to hand down jail erms for “hate crimes” such as putting up stickers saying “woman: adult human female” or “misgendering” someone by using the wrong pronouns. Don’t call a man “him” if he prefers to be called “her”.
    (Daily Mail – scroll down for report)

    But don’t worry, you can still call women TERFS and post pictures of yourself with a baseball bat out hunting TERFS. That’s not a hate crime.

  325. Effijy says:

    The DUP Are getting plenty!
    They get a disproportionate number of government jobs
    In order to compensation for business’ avoiding them like the plague.

    Who would want the worry of a country we’re two halves hate each other
    And sing sings of death and destruction, a land where terrorists loyal to the UK
    Can build gigantic bonfires next to your office or home risking life and limb but
    The police nor fire services dare to do anything about it.

    A land we’re the most senior DUP leaders proudly make videos of them singing and
    Dancing to a song proclaiming how the hate Catholics, the people they sit with in Stormont.

    Politicians who do not accept a woman’s right to abortion, gay marriage and my favourite of theirs
    That the earth is only 4,000 years old and dinosaur bones are tools of the devil to make you think
    The earth is older. This is True! Really.

    Now the people above are in Downing Street each day accepting my tax payments as bribes
    Getting special deals to suit them specifically and my country Scotland is ignored, insulted and
    And resigned to having on importance and no part to play in anything about our future.

  326. Cubby says:

    I would recommend a read of Wee Ginger Dugs latest post. – Arguing from a Position of Strength

    I’m sorry to say that the well known phoney independence supporter Colin Alexander, after years ( it feels like decades ) of posting his non stop SNP baaad posts on Wings has turned up on WGD. He must think he has completed his task on Wings , pocketed his bonus and is turning his attention to his next assignment.

  327. Breeks says:

    Jock McDonnell says:
    17 October, 2019 at 7:59 am
    I have no difficulty with NI getting a special deal.
    I can only hope its not lost on my fellow Scots that we are getting Hee-Haw, that’s not the fault of NI.

    Have a difficulty with it Jock. It breaches the Act of Union.

  328. Bob Mack says:

    I like the concept of using The Treaty of Union to claim that it had been broken because of taxtion differentials.

    That may hzve been very useful indeed apart from from one tiny flaw. The Unionists saw it firsf and nullified it in the Smith Commision. The Scottish Govennment agreed that they could set different tax rates in Scotland.

    The principle has now been estalished in law.
    Thzts why Westminster did it.

  329. Capella says:

    @ Bob Mack – I don’t think it’s a defence in law to point out that you have already broken it?

  330. Republicofscotland says:

    Now this is interesting according to this a second indyref could be held around 15 weeks after a S30 order is granted. Apparently provision have or could be made to have it early as that.

  331. Bob Mack says:


    Oh indeed it is. Thats why people will obtain retrospective pardons for offences that are no longer considered such.

    Laws are very useful, provided you dont alter them by Statute.

    Judges alwzys look at legal precedent prior to decisions and the Smith Commission made sure that precedent was set..

  332. Capella says:

    @ Bob Mack – is there a precedent in this circumstance? Has anyone taken HMG to court over breach of Treaty and won? If so, what remedy? I would be happy with OK the Treaty is dead; but not OK you can’t vary tax rates any more

  333. Republicofscotland says:

    The Rev might have a wee bit of competition for votes in 2021, if the SNP fails to deliver. Lesley Riddoch, has said that she’s contemplating setting up her own indy party because things are moving too slow.

    She added that she won’t speak at anymore SNP conferences.

    Lets hope the SNP can deliver indy first.

  334. @joe,

    “it would certainly save time having to scoll past their slaverings.”

  335. Bob Mack says:


    No, nobody has challenged it as yet. The point is that civil servants who are conspiratal devils create potholes better than solutions.

    They saw an opportunity to lure the Scottish govennment into a situation where the Treaty of Union could become “watered down” if you will. The more flaws that are accepted the harder to claim it was broken.Just as B!air created the Supreme Court to temper Scottish legal sovereignty which is against the Treaty as well.

    Slow erosion.

    In any event the Scottish Government accepted these differentials on behalf of the Scottish people

    Job done.

  336. Capella says:

    @ Bob Mack – It’s one thing to accept, by negotiation, variations in the terms of a Treaty. That doesn’t mean Westminster can assume carte blanche to tear up vast swathes of the treaty unilaterally.

  337. Bob Mack says:


    Thats exactly the point. The Scottish government accepted those terms on behalf of Scotlands pdople and it became law in Westminster and Holyrood.The princille is now acceted by both signatories to the Treaty.

    No blame attached to anyone. Any hue kf government would probably have done the same.

  338. Bob Mack says:

    Reports that Boris has his deal.

  339. Capella says:

    It used to be a defence in r*pe trials that the woman was promiscuous, had slept with other men, was a prostitute, or even was married to the accused. Happily, that is no longer a defence. Consent is required.

    Just because I give money to charity, i.e. give it away, doesn’t mean anyone is entitled to take money from me without consent. That’s theft.

    So with international treaties. breach of treaty without consent will end up in court. It would be an excellent reason to declare the treaty null and void.

  340. Bob Mack says:


    It was sanctioned by our elected representatives. That is legal on every level. No case im afraid.

    Unless you want to take the SNP to court for acting illegal!y as wdl! as Westminster.

  341. SilverDarling says:

    Are the DUP seats so safe that an international agreement can be scuppered or ratified because of them?

    Have there been polls recently asking whether their stance is a popular one with their core vote?

  342. Bob Mack says:

    Big Question

    Looking at the numbers will Boris ask the SNP to back the deal for indhref 2 ?

  343. Capella says:

    @ Bob Mack – we are going to have to agree to disagree on this point. I’m happy to wait and see how the Scottish Government responds to Boris’s apparent “deal”. Should be an interesting day.

  344. Proud Cybernat says:

    Mike Russel suspects BawJaws deal will be voted down by WM and Holyrood.

  345. Bob Mack says:

    This Brexit is like reading a murder mystery where the truth is only revealed on the last line of the last page.

  346. starlaw says:

    Mike Russell is correct. Boris’s dream will come crashing down about him. This deal is worse than Theresa Mays .

  347. mumsyhugs says:

    If anybody’s interested an English campaigner for English independence has started a government petition for English independence from the union. Seems most signatures so far are from Scotland! Think you’ll find it under Petition.Parliament.UK Get signing folks 🙂

  348. defo says:

    I think that’s his plan.

  349. Clapper57 says:

    DUP holding out on agreeing to Theresa May’s Bojo’d deal ……funny how Ian Paisley Jnr & Sammy Wilson so close to Aaron Banks ….who is close to Nigel Farage….who endorses No Deal….just saying….so, for certain DUP members, is it to acquire ‘more’ money the issue or protect the dark money ?

    Also I wanted to say to some of the people on here who say …let’s get independence first and sort out ‘things’ like Self ID issue after…problem is those who endorse self ID ….well THEY are prioritising self ID now and in doing that are trying to oust certain SNP female individuals indeed also demonise people like Joanna Cherry and denounce her as a TERF… should these individuals not also follow this principle ….Indy first and other ‘things’ after ?

    Also if you have not seen the twitter interaction between these self ID individuals,self appointed ‘women’ in name only, and actual women then you may be shocked….a common response to ‘actual’ women from these individuals is to resort to ‘highlighting’ a certain male organ …unique to them as males…and what they suggest actual women should do to this ‘organ’ if they disagree with them

    Weird innit…want to self ID as a WOMAN, and expect people to respect this and allow them access to female areas, and yet in their defense against women who are against their self ID status they, the self ID males, resort to using the very organ they have,that clearly distinguishes them as males, to intimidate and chastise actual women…..that type of response in itself should ring alarm bells to those who are currently championing their cause as just.

    So is their argument also the following :

    “I self ID as a woman..want same access as women to what was previously female only areas…..You disagree…and I will then use the very thing that distinguishes me as a male to intimidate and offend you”….sound right ?…..perhaps only in a self indulgent and dysfunctional Universe….here ….not so much.

  350. SilverDarling says:


    Yes you have to wonder what the DUP are getting out of this as they are going against the vote of NI a whole and , on the face of it, NI is getting its cake and eating it.

    Well the HoC vote will be interesting.

    Of note on the Rev’s Twitter, Johnson seems to be a TRA too. Who says there is no vested interest from the money men in Self ID?

  351. mountain shadow says:

    Is no one else seeing that Northern Ireland is being rewarded with a great special deal due to 40 years of violence, but Scotland, with its very peaceful and civic independence movement is getting nothing from this Brexit deal?

    Seems to be a very dangerous thing being done here.

  352. defo says:

    Bojo’s sponsors will have made a killing on the rising value of the £, and will now be busily hedging on the inevitable fall to come.
    The scene is set for the distribution of blame, and the sheeple will happily buy it.

  353. SilverDarling says:

    @Mountain Shadow

    Yes and if we were to go down that route it would be the end of everything we are trying to achieve.

  354. Rev. Stuart Campbell says:

    “I don’t see anyone here talking about animal rights, farming or fishing rights in Scotland! these are far bigger issues than self ID”

    They’re really, really not.

  355. Ian Brotherhood says:

    Just put this on Twitter:

    ‘One for Scottish indy supporters…
    Would you support the SNP backing Johnson’s Withdrawal Agreement in return for Scottish Parliament getting guaranteed power over timing of Indyref2?’

    133 votes cast (since mid-day)

    Yes 35%
    No 65%

  356. Bob Mack says:

    Can Brexit be stopped commpletely ? The simple answer is no.
    Englands voters wznt to leave.If thzt mezns an dxfension then electing Farage thats what they will do.

    We are coming out as a default in any event.

    There js no comfort to be had for Scotland in this situation bar one.

    We still have 30 odd MPs and their votes must count for something that benefits Scotland and not necessarily the rest of the UK.

    People on here talk of Real Politik. Well here jt is.

    Give England what it wants for an indy referendum. A lifeboat

    that may wel! take us back to our European home.

    Risky yes, but let the dice fall as they may.

  357. Clapper57 says:

    @ SilverDarling @ 11.40am & 12.08pm

    Yep SilverDarling….and people in Northern Ireland do NOT want No deal as ultimate conclusion to this fiasco….but follow the money..connect the dots….dark money taking a back seat in MSM consciousness while simultaneously driving this .

    I don’t think, but may be wrong, that mountain shadow is suggesting he/she endorses violence be used for Scotland to achieve independence, but is just making the distinction in the unfairness of how we in Scotland use peaceful and legal means to try and get what we want….which as a method governments say is one in which they will enter into negotiation with…. as opposed to their, the governments, resolution they will never concede to those who choose to use violent means to achieve their objective.

    Obviously I do not agree with using violence and am more than aware that the innocents in all conflicts are the ones who bear the brunt and suffer the most….the GFA must be upheld for the sake of the people…..but it is currently a government and a selfish and greedy NI party (DUP) who are putting this agreement in jeopardy….a NI party, namely the DUP, who did NOT agree with the GFA in the first place….

    Meanwhile in peaceful Scotland….where peaceful demonstrators march for Indy and vote for Indy parties…they are being treated as if they are ‘terrorists’….the derogatory terms applied such as ‘separatists’ gives the sense to the listener or reader that we are enemies of the state….and thus treated as if we are indeed violent in our intentions….Jo Swinson likes to present our Yes movement as a violent one….does she not…and she is not alone in promoting this narrative…quelle surprise.

    As for Johnson…he is a Johnson supporter only…ebbs and flows in his opinion but ultimately he will fall back on whatever helps Boris to maintain Boris’s position. Another Eton mess.

    Have a good day

  358. Lenny Hartley says:

    Terry Callachan i apologise for calling you fucking stupid in response to you calling me a stupid idiot. See be below
    As to your comment about my weight are you trying to suggest that overweight people should have no view on anything? I will leave others to decide if the Tories, BBC, STV and the rest of the MSM will differenciate between the Scottish Government and the SNP.

    On another topic, hope all the friends of Wings have a great night out in Glasgow, sadly i cannot make it problem with being overweight is thatI cant waddle between Central Stationnd the pub.

    I would like to thank Stu for bringing this huge issue to our attention, i will not be commenting on it again and will reserve my energies in this matter within the SNP.

    Lenny Hartley….don’t be stupid

    The Scottish government hasn’t decided anything yet with regards their review of the gender recognition act 2004

    It’s a Scottish government review
    Not an SNP review you idiot

    Nothing whatsoever has been decided, zero , zilch , stupid people come away with idiotic scare stories that have no credence at all, get al life .

  359. SilverDarling says:


    My fault – I didn’t make that clear! I agree and I don’t for a minute think Mountain Shadow was advocating violence, merely pointing out the bind we are in.

    If we follow all the rules we get nowhere, it we go down the route of NI we lose our soul. We are trapped by our constant adherence to doing the right thing.

    A bit like the debate the Rev is having about a bargain with the Tories to get Brexit through in return for a S.30.

    Do you sometimes have to dance with the Devil and hope you don’t get burned?

    Take care!

  360. Rev. Stuart Campbell says:

    “Because there wasn’t a legal precedent in 2017 for Scotland’s highest court to challenge Westminster. Fucking moron.”

    Hi! How is it that you think legal precedents are set, exactly?

  361. dadsarmy says:

    Hi! How is it that you think legal precedents are set, exactly?

    That’s an interesting question, and I guess there are many ways. Head on, or bit at a time. And if there are previous precedents that need to be overturned as there often are, bit at a time is likely best.

    Last one for instance, the UKSC talked about Conventions as being part of the Rule of Law – that’s the prorogation one. That completely contradicts the previous talk about the Sewel Convention in the Miller case.

  362. Clapper57 says:

    @ silverdarling @ 1.34Pm

    No probs…actually I knew you were not thinking that of him/ are way too intelligent and perceptive ( going by your other comments on this forum) to assume that was his/her meaning….

    See this posting lark…it’s like emails..very hard to communicate your exact meaning and loads of people misinterpret what you are trying to say…I have lost count of the number of people who , unintentionally, offended others through what they have written on an email.

    When I worked I had to email people and had to reread what I had written to ensure it did not come over as blunt, open to interpretation or rather misinterpretation….sometimes much easier to just bloody talk…then if misunderstood one can immediately correct what one was actually trying to say…thus maintain cordial relations and not make enemies..Lol

    You take care too

    BTW…many thanks for your support in the past re my ‘little’ spat with another poster on this site…much appreciated and sorry I have not conveyed my thanks before now….

  363. SilverDarling says:


    Aw thank you!

  364. James Barr Gardner says:

    Will there ever be 60% in the Polls which are politically skewed OR is the affect of Demographics over 6 years give a more accurate picture of the Scottish Voting Public.

    One is stone cold FACT the other to a degree is SUPPOSITION !

    By the end of next year 400,000 Scots will have passed on to the happy hunting ground, the vast majority of them elderly, by the way I’am in my 70th year and fully aware of my own mortality.

    Nicola must be aware of this and the swing in the EU citizens Vote plus the appalling treatment of the WASPI Women plus the most utterly miserly pension in the western world !

    END THE UNION NOW NICOLA ! The young folk must have real future, Scotland must be free of the English State Rule and TORY AUSTERITY !

  365. Gary says:

    I THINK I see what’s happening here. We know that Sturgeon had ‘early discussions’ over an Article 30 but now we’re told it wasn’t ‘formally’ requested. She said she would ask for a vote ‘when the shape of Brexit became clear’ and now it has.

    Whether leaving without a deal, or getting this new one past parliament on Saturday, the current government are telling us that we leave on 31st October ‘come what may’

    Now that the ‘shape’ of Brexit is clear and we have a date we are leaving on this meets the criteria as set out by Sturgeon some time ago. Under the wording of the agreement this DOES count as a ‘material change’ and so there is no need to ‘wait a generation’ As such she CAN ‘demand’ the transfer of powers, failure to do so would be a breach of the Act in anyone’s eyes. Being ‘dragged out of the EU against her (Scotland’s) will’ was the very example given by the SNP leadership at the time the Agreement was signed, neither Cameron nor anyone else called them out on it at the time (obviously Cameron expected to WIN the EU vote) as he so easily could have. It’s an obvious, glaringly good reason to hold a referendum. It would leave the UK government facing action in court over failing to hold up their end of the agreement – it wouldn’t matter whether the vote (Brexit) was democratically held, the vote of the whole of the UK etc etc. All that matters is that it materially changes Scotland’s position.

    When we pass 31st October this HAS to happen. ie the process to begin. I believe that is the strategy and that is what they have chosen as their way forward. As it happens I agree, we saw what happened to Catalan and we can’t let that happen here, we MUST use EVERY alternative to ensure that we have exhausted every avenue before anything like that is considered…

  366. Mist001 says:

    The back up plan is Sturgeon is going to demand a S30 and when that’s refused, they’re going to challenge it in the courts.

    That’s it. That’s the ‘Plan B’.

    I don’t have the link now but it was Sturgeon or one of these other fucking pricks that said it last week.

    Forget independence. Instead put pressure on Johnson now to shut down Holyrood and then refuse to vote SNP at the next GE.

    I know that doesn’t help the cause of independence but I’m heartily sick of being fucked about by Sturgeon and her cronies and that’s the ONLY way they’ll take notice because they certainly don’t listen to the people.

  367. dadsarmy says:

    That’s a great idea. Kill off Independence.

    What a load of old cobblers.

  368. Mist001 says:

    I can’t despise the SNP anymore than I do at this minute and you? I never said anything about killing off independence. I have plenty to say about getting this current bunch out of their seats and off their Westminster/Holyrood gravy train.

    These people are doing NOTHING for independence apart from throwing the odd soundbite here and there to keep the gullible onside.

    I’m absolutely sickened to my stomach with them.

    I saw that Tommy Shepphard in Edinburgh but because I’m a nice guy, he was having his lunch so I left him in peace.

    Not next time though.

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