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The tantrums of fantasists

Posted on July 15, 2016 by

If there haven’t been as many posts on this site as people might expect at a time of such incredible political turmoil, it’s because Wings isn’t at heart a commentary blog. We don’t do a lot of flat-out opinion pieces, tending to concern ourselves more with measurable, empirical facts, and since nobody knows anything about anything at the moment, we haven’t had all that much useful to say.

But the closest thing there is right now to a certainty is that sometime quite soon, Unionist politicians in Scotland are going to have to grow up and deal with this:

guardiankez

And their problem is that there’s no possible way to.

Every party in the Scottish Parliament backed a Remain vote, and every council area in Scotland voted that way. (The fact that the 38% of Scots who voted Leave are essentially unrepresented in the Parliament in that regard is a genuine problem about which little can be done.) Neither Kezia Dugdale nor Ruth Davidson nor Willie Rennie wants Scotland to find itself outside the EU.

Unfortuately for them, if it stays in the UK then it’s going to.

recordhammond

courierhammond

telegraphhammond

heraldhammond

The harsh truth that there is no way Westminster will ever allow Scotland to remain in the EU while the rest of the UK leaves is one that Unionists are still massively in denial about.

Dugdale can say “But I don’t want to choose!” as much as she likes. Ruth Davidson can tell the Guardian “I expect early engagement with the incoming prime minister on that subject as we look to maintain Scotland’s EU status, in line with the democratic wishes of the people of Scotland” until she’s even bluer in the face than usual.

The Lib Dems can “pledge to keep Britain in the EU after next election” if they want, ignoring everyone’s laughter, and Owen Smith can indulge his mad twin delusions of (a) becoming Labour leader and (b) Labour winning an election and holding a second EU referendum in 2020, but it’ll be far too late by then.

davis2018

It’s not just MPs who’ve misplaced their marbles. A cross-party group of doddering old Lords have given themselves the grand title of the Constitutional Reform Group and proposed a whole new Act Of Union in an attempt to square the circle.

heraldcrg

But their draft bill, published yesterday, is an act of drivelling madness. It proposes a “federal” UK with four separate national Parliaments in addition to a reduced central Westminster controlling a set of shared powers. But among the powers it plans to reserve are, um, membership of the EU, foreign relations and immigration.

aou1

aou2

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…in other words, all of the things Scotland wants to take control of in order to stop itself being dragged out of the EU against its will in the first place.

The CRG’s draft bill is so jaw-droppingly clueless and detached from reality in terms of its supposed aims that the only way it could have been any stupider would have been if it had also proposed to actually remove powers, for example by taking back control of income tax from Holyrood to London. Which, er, it does, on page 26.

But wait! All is well! The new Prime Minister is on her way to Scotland, in her first full day of work since forming her Cabinet, to assuage everyone’s fears, soothe feelings and bond us all together more strongly than ever before!

mailmay

But her “offer” is clear: shut up and eat your cereal.

“I believe with all my heart in the United Kingdom — the precious bond between England, Scotland, Wales and Northern Ireland. This visit to Scotland is my first as prime minister and I’m coming here to show my commitment to preserving this special union that has endured for centuries.

That’s because I believe in a union, not just between the nations of the United Kingdom, but between all of our citizens. Whether it’s reforming the economy or strengthening our society, we are going to build a better Britain and a nation that works for everyone — not just the privileged few.”

Because the new Chancellor had already explained what that meant:

“The best future for Scotland is inside the United Kingdom economy.

Let’s make this United Kingdom economy work for all of us and let’s negotiate with the European Union, from outside the European Union, a relationship which works for Britain and works for Europe so we can have as close a relationship in trade and commerce as we possibly can while being outside the European Union — as the British people have determined we should be.

However we voted, we are part of the United Kingdom and we have democratic decisions made across the United Kingdom. We will now implement the decision that the people of the United Kingdom collectively have made to leave the European Union.

mundelleu

Unionists in Scotland are flapping in a panic, stalling for time in the desperate hope that some unknown miracle will save them from a day of reckoning that now cannot be avoided.

Perhaps there’ll somehow be a Brexit deal that retains access to the single market while not accepting freedom of movement. Perhaps the UK can delay invoking Article 50 for so long that the Scottish electorate will finally notice that the SNP are BAD, and that Jackie Baillie or Adam Tomkins are the future of governance. Perhaps a massive UKIP surge will shift Scottish opinion in favour of Brexit.

(It’s undoubtedly the case that a non-trivial number of 2014 Yes voters oppose EU membership. But the simple arithmetic suggests that they’re outnumbered by No voters who want to stay – the margin of No’s victory in the indyref was less than half the size of Remain’s. And our gut feeling is that most Yes voters care more about independence than being in the EU if push comes to shove.)

Or, more likely than any of those, perhaps an asteroid will crash out of the sky and end all human life before Dugdale, Davidson and whatsisname have to face up to a decision that so far they’ve shown no sign of having the emotional maturity to handle.

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Because the cold, hard, inescapable truth is that Scotland is going to have to choose a Union, and pretty soon at that. The opposition leaders and media can stamp their feet and hurl toys out of their prams, but Scotland’s third constitutional referendum of the 21st Century is coming, and everyone’s going to have to pick a side.

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607 to “The tantrums of fantasists”

  1. msean
    Ignored
    says:

    It’s all apples and oranges,arguements about what voters voted how, are irrelevant.

    The overall result is that more people have realised that long term,independence is the best and most obvious option.
    Folk can’t be kept where they do not wish to be,unless of course you force them to stay by legal means or if those in charge are just obstinate.

    In which case,they no longer are free to choose whatever future they want. Democracy didn’t stop on 19th September 2014,just because some lied their way to a result they wanted.

  2. Papko
    Ignored
    says:

    @Papko –

    I don’t know how you can tell any commenter’s financial status just by reading what they have to say about stuff in general. Never mind

    I just imagine I am debating in real life with my SNP supporting friends, they are all “big house, mortgage free” consider themselves “working class”, with a “sense of social justice”, just don’t ask them to pay £20 extra community charge to help the council maintain services.

    Your country is Scotland,I live here, but am also British. London is not the capital of a foreign country, to me its the capital of my country.

    I appreciate we are opposing views, my intention is not to provoke, just raise different points.

    have a nice night.

  3. Ian Brotherhood
    Ignored
    says:

    Anone else having comments disappear?

    Hmmm…

    Anyway, Grouse Beater, aye, 🙂 book titles are tricky things.

    When Steinbeck’s ‘The Grapes of Wrath’ was released in Japan it caused a bit of a stir because the kanji used translated directly as ‘The Angry Raisins’.

    ‘Return of The Angry Raisins and The Old Unelectable Shitebags’.

    Now there’s a title!

  4. Robert Peffers
    Ignored
    says:

    @Woody says: 16 July, 2016 at 12:31 pm:

    Well aren’t you perceptive ? I might say that your inability to spell “sympathise” clearly marks you out as a total numpty, unsuited to participate in intelligent debate, but where would that get us eh ? 🙂

    All total Pish! Woody, and the illogical one is yourself as your arguments are based upon a total lack of evidence but a massive dose of your own preconceived and totally wrong opinions.

  5. Ian Brotherhood
    Ignored
    says:

    @Papko –

    Hey, fair do’s mister, I ain’t fishing for a scrap.

    You think London’s the capital of your country? Okey-dokey.

    I’m not the only one who views it as a really ‘orrible hybrid of cesspool and black hole, sucking in talent, youth, creativity, ambition and hope, and spewing out whatever ordure helps The Realm maintain the power and treasure it’s accumulated/stolen in the past half-millenium.

    Toodle-pip!

  6. Ruby
    Ignored
    says:

    http://tinyurl.com/gtkz5de
    I’ve just been watching (well some of it) the debate on
    ‘The Implications of the EU Referendum for Scotland Debate’

    It seems what Unionist politicians are saying is the Brexit vote is a disaster, has serious implications for Scotland, utter madness, extremely disappointing etc etc etc but that we must accept it!

    We must accept the disaster that Brexit will bring because people do not want an IndyRef2.

  7. Paula Rose
    Ignored
    says:

    @Papko – pappy sweetie you really are not very good at this, please leave it to the grown-ups.

  8. Dr Jim
    Ignored
    says:

    Can we just all agree Adam Tomkins is a “Duck”

  9. Dr Jim
    Ignored
    says:

    Would that be London England, you know like Paris France
    or Edinburgh Scotland

    Sumdy punsh him

  10. mealer
    Ignored
    says:

    Will Jenny Marra side with the Tories again in indyref2?

  11. Macart
    Ignored
    says:

    London is the designated capital of the United Kingdom no question. Move the parliament of the UK to wherever in fact and theoretically that becomes the capital of the UK state construct. London however would still be the capital city of England and the capital city of my country would still be Edinburgh.

    I seem to recall a suggestion at one point last indyref out, that the parliament became a moveable feast hosting in cities throughout the UK in order to promote unity. Give each one a wee shotty at being THE capital as it were.

    That went well then.

  12. Paula Rose
    Ignored
    says:

    Oh goody a new post *giggle*

  13. Ruby
    Ignored
    says:

    We heard a lot about Alex Salmond and the ‘once in a generation’ statement but we haven’t heard much about David Cameron claiming Article 50 would be triggered immediately!

    https://archive.is/EdUth

    ‘Cameron confirmed the immediate implementation of Article 50 in his speech at the Commons on Monday.

    “If the British people vote to leave, there’s only one way to bring that about and that is to trigger Article 50 of the treaties and begin the process of exit,” he said.

    “And the British people would rightly expect that that should start straightaway.’

  14. Ruby
    Ignored
    says:

    Will we ever hear anything further about the Chilcott Enquiry or the Tory Election fraud?

  15. One_Scot
    Ignored
    says:

    You really do have to wonder what on earth they have to do to Scotland before we finally say enough is enough.

  16. Papadox
    Ignored
    says:

    What is Kezia’s thoughts on the brexit situation? And her SLAB spear carriers.
    What is Ruth the mooth and her followers thoughts on brexit?
    What is wee Wullies pearls of wisdom regarding the brexit situation? Where’s his troops?

    The yoons really are the lowest of the low, spineless, arrogant and swivel eyed nonentities. Cannot think for themselves, got to await script from Londinium.

  17. Papko
    Ignored
    says:

    “I’m not the only one who views it as a really ‘orrible hybrid of cesspool and black hole, sucking in talent, youth, creativity, ambition and hope, and spewing out whatever ordure helps The Realm maintain the power and treasure it’s accumulated/stolen in the past half-millenium.”

    Toodle-pip!

    I know what you mean Ian , I lived in a squat in Kings Cross at one time.

  18. Lochside
    Ignored
    says:

    the trolls are really out tonight….Viking’s snotter?

  19. Dave McEwan Hill
    Ignored
    says:

    For those who are not SNP members and will not have received this message fro the FM I copy it below. It is unambiguous.

    “Today I welcomed the new Prime Minister to Bute House in Edinburgh.

    I sought a commitment from her that the UK government would listen and consider all the options raised by Scotland.

    So there is now an agreement that the Scottish Government will be fully involved in ‘Brexit’ talks.

    With Scotland facing exit from the EU against our will, warm words about a ‘special Union’ won’t cut it.

    A Union that ignores our wishes would not be very special at all.

    I’ll continue to explore all options to preserve our place in Europe. That’s what Scotland voted for.

    And, a new poll shows the people across Europe strongly support Scotland’s place in Europe too.

    I’ll be back with a further update soon. Until then, I’ll be working tirelessly to protect Scotland place in Europe… come what may.”

  20. Ruby
    Ignored
    says:

    Papadox They all think that the Brexit vote is a disaster, has serious implications for Scotland, utter madness, extremely disappointing etc etc etc but that we must accept it!

    We must accept the disaster Brexit will bring because well there is no appetite in Scotland for a 2nd IndyRef.

    http://tinyurl.com/gtkz5de

  21. Thepnr
    Ignored
    says:

    @PapkoThePap

    I just imagine I am debating in real life with my SNP supporting friends, they are all “big house, mortgage free” consider themselves “working class”, with a “sense of social justice”, just don’t ask them to pay £20 extra community charge to help the council maintain services.

    I very much doubt that you have any SNP supporting friends with a big hoose and mortgage free.

    Your mixing up your Tory friends with reality. Your a Pap.

  22. Thepnr
    Ignored
    says:

    @Papko

    Take that back, you’ve just posted that “I lived in a squat in Kings Cross at one time.”

    Your an idiot and a Pap.

  23. Paula Rose
    Ignored
    says:

    Pappy pappy pap pap.

  24. Papko
    Ignored
    says:

    @ Thepnr the Wise

    According to the SG , 58% of houses in Scotland are owner occupied.

    http://www.gov.scot/Topics/Statistics/Browse/Housing-Regeneration/TrendTenure

    So its not entirely the realms of fiction to assert a few people that you know may have a house bought and paid for etc.

    woe betide , there could be members of the Scottish working class amongst them.

  25. Papko
    Ignored
    says:

    Why are people who live in squats idiots? @Thepnr the Wise .

    I did live in a squat in Kings Cross,(after months of sleeping rough).
    Its not nice to demonize poor people , you may have economic misfortune yourself sometime.

  26. Breeks
    Ignored
    says:

    Man alive… Having a bad tech day today… Trying again.

    Had a post go astray… Either that or I’m under moderation…

    Can anybody answer me this?

    Why are we going through all the rigmarole of negotiating with Westminster and tying Scotland’s Independence onto the back of Brexit?

    The Declaration of Arbroath, and the 1689 Claim of Rights enshrines Scottish sovereignty with the people of Scotland. For all that it is arcane, it is still competent, binding law. In England, sovereignty comes down from God, to the monarch, to the parliament, and bestowes power upon the parliament to rule the people, but in Scotland, it is different. Sovereignty does not come from God, it resides with the people and power comes from the ground up by popular consensus.

    We, the people of Scotland hold our own sovereignty, and we hold it in perpetuity. And interestingly, we would still do so, supposing neither Westminster’s parliament nor Holyrood even existed. Our sovereignty is bigger than both and older.

    Remarkably little fuss has been made over the UN recognising the Declaration of Arbroath which has just been awarded UNESCO status as a “Memory of the World”, and we really should be paying a lot more attention as to why the Declaration of Arbroath is so often quoted as the blueprint for so many National Constitutions. It is the mother of all trump cards.

    In critical essence, the Declaration of Arbroath bestowed sovereignty onto the people of Scotland, permanently and in perpetuity. It cannot be removed from us by Monarch, parliament, or law. It is the fundamental essence of Republicanism, but way, way ahead of its time. (The definition of a republic being a Nation state where the common people enjoy popular sovereignty). This is not bizarre archaic paperwork of obscure significance, the potency of the legislation was tested in law, and recognised by the UK’s Supreme Court in 2011 which declared it did not have the jurisdiction to overrule the sovereign voice of Scotland’s people. That is 700 year old Scots Law still holding its full potency today.

    The Parliament of the U.K. has from the outset administered government the English way, where sovereignty is a top down principle, but this is, and always has been inconsistent with Scotland’s bottom up sovereignty. What that means is that even though Westminster acts as our sovereign government, it actually holds no sovereignty over us, and it never has.

    We have all the legislation we need to be an Independent nation. We already are, because sovereignty is ours and cannot be taken from us. It is that issue of sovereignty which defines us as a nation, and it is beyond the reach of Westminster.

    Westminster’s authority to govern us is built upon a fundamental lack of understanding of Scot’s law, and even if we proceed down this path of Brexit, Independence referendum or UDI, it is all a superfluous pursuit because sovereignty has never left the people of Scotland in the first place. We are going through the motions of winning back something which was never lost.

    Because we cannot abdicate our popular sovereignty, nor transpose it onto someone else, the Scottish Parliament might be our seat of government, but it can never be our sovereign seat of government.

    This applies to Westminster, Holyrood under devolution, but also Holyrood’s authority in a newly Independent Scotland. None of them can usurp sovreignty from the Scottish people.

    We should be very careful that we do not build our newly independent Scottish Parliament upon the same flawed presumptions as the current UK parliament, or it can all be undone the moment some smart cookie contests it’s sovereignty. Something we sovereign Scots perhaps should have done to Westminster a long time ago…

    I’m not altogether sure why we pursue this circuitous route to secure Independence democratically, when our independence as a nation was enshrined in law 700 years ago by republican principles permanently enshrined in Scots law. We don’t need democracy to confound The 1707 Act of Union, all we need is for Scots law to be applied and our perpetual, popular sovereignty recognised.

    This is a good read from a certain website which likes to punch above its weight… Apologies if I muck up the link.

    \\wingsoverscotland.com/weekend-sovereignty-for-dummies/

  27. defo
    Ignored
    says:

    Macart
    “What KIND of country do you want to live in?”

    In short, one where everyone gets the chance of a kick at the ball, and where nobody is intentionally left behind.

    We have to remember though that every potential Yes voter isn’t just like us.
    We have all grown up through the Thatcher/Reagan neo-liberal era.
    ME ME ME,defined by the stuff we own, rather than the people we are.

    Anticipating where we might fall short again with the voting public, and creating a strategy to deal with it needs doing now.
    Even if you have to hold your nose for a while.

  28. Macart
    Ignored
    says:

    @defo

    That’s the country where I want to live. 🙂

  29. Thepnr
    Ignored
    says:

    @Papko

    You make me laugh, flip flop flip flop from one point of view to another. I know what you are! A Pap hahaha fuck off.

  30. The Rough Bounds
    Ignored
    says:

    Breeks. 9.08 pm.

    Perfect argument Breeks. Well done. We play the cards that we are dealt, and Scotland has a bunch of aces right there.

  31. Paula Rose
    Ignored
    says:

    @Papko which squat honey?

  32. Lochside
    Ignored
    says:

    Spot on Breeks…good link too…Why the legal profession in Scotland have not challenged the constant breaches of Scottish sovereignty is beyond me. The ‘UK Supreme Court’ is an oxymoron and should not exist.

  33. Dave McEwan Hill
    Ignored
    says:

    It’s nothing to do with whether its a Tory or a Labour Government in London, or whether we’d be better off if the stamps cost less or if etc etc etc

    It’s because we are an ancient nation, no less able than any other nation and we should be ruling ourselves and making our own decisions. It’s full responsibility and self esteem.

  34. Iain
    Ignored
    says:

    I think we must listen to”Breeks” the future of your nation depends on our taking opportunities when they are offered and when your opponent takes a mental turn we must size the opportunity as presented. You know that Scotland deserves that everyone in Scotland fights for freedom from the empire yoke.

  35. Papko
    Ignored
    says:

    Is there a list of Squats @Paula ?

    Doubt it
    It was Flaxman Court, along from KingsX and just behind Euston.

    I only mentioned it as Ian Brotherhood said he was not keen on London, considering it a cesspit to that effect.

    And the point about London came up whilst discussing capital cities, Some in Fife consider Glenrothes there capital, others in Fife, think of Edinburgh, and Yoons in Fife consider London the capital of there country.

    Takes all sorts , and all view points in civic Scotland.

  36. Finnz
    Ignored
    says:

    It is now pretty obvious that Kezia (and Ruth) will not commit to any action that would fly in the face of their London handlers instructions.

    The paradox of wanting both solutions at the same time and actually expecting the voter to believe it is possible allows the unionist parties to keep the pot boiling for as long as is necessary.

  37. carjamtic
    Ignored
    says:

    There are many posters on here who are not SNP,(just a quick mention,for clarity),most however,believe in fairness and opportunity.

    Scotland has an opportunity,right now,to begin,to right the wrongs,of the division that exists between the wealthiest and the poorest.

    Maybe some people have money,maybe not,it is not important,the fact,is that most recognise the unhealthy gap that exists and acknowledge that it is wrong.

    Right here,right now,lies an opportunity to do something about it.

    Many people on this planet,(including the United States) would give their eyeteeth,for such an opportunity,let’s not be wasteful,it is unlikely to come round again,anytime soon.

    If you believe,in a fairer,a more equal society,there is only one choice,irrespective of your current political or financial status….the choice of hope,hope of a better way,a fairer way,the hope,that still exists and still flickers….more brightly than ever.

    Let’s do this before everything starts to worsen,let’s start again,in an Independant Scotland and let’s do it right.

    #manicstreetpreacher

  38. Golfnut
    Ignored
    says:

    @ breaks,
    That is my take on this situation, and I believe the SG also recognise the potency of the Declaration of Arbroath.

    The SNP manifesto contained the assertion that Scotland’s Parliament should have the right to call a referendum at any time, in essence a mandate from the sovereign people of Scotland which they received. No matter what Westminster asserts, they cannot deny the validity of any referendum carried out in Scotland, called for by the Scottish Parliament.

  39. Chic McGregor
    Ignored
    says:

    “If there haven’t been as many posts on this site as people might expect at a time of such incredible political turmoil, it’s because Wings isn’t at heart a commentary blog.”

    Come off it Rev.. We all know you’ve gotten yourself a mullet wig and are moonlighting as The Preacher on the new TV show.

    http://www.stuff.co.nz/content/dam/images/1/b/x/9/9/r/image.related.StuffLandscapeSixteenByNine.620×349.1bweui.png/1464546360311.jpg

  40. Brian Doonthetoon
    Ignored
    says:

    Hi Breeks.

    I agree that, in Scotland, the people are sovereign, confirmed by the 1320 Declaration. But how do the people of Scotland exert that sovereignty? We elect MP’s and MSP’s and MEP’s (and local councillors) to act on our behalf.

    We put our trust in them.

    The ‘MacCormick v Lord Advocate’ case in 1953 threw up in interesting comment – which I just can’t refind! So I’m paraphrasing…

    The point made was that although sovereignty in Scotland rested with the people, they elected MP’s and so on to represent them. In 1953, the parties they were voting for were all beholden to their English masters so it didn’t really matter what the people of Scotland wanted – the over-riding principle of the parties that Scots voted for, was to go along with what they UK parties said.

    Since 2007, we have been on a different playing field. Scots have been supporting a party that owes no allegiance to a UK-wide party but whose sole interest is in promoting the well-being of Scotland and the Scots.

    That is why ‘Better Together’ went into propaganda overdrive; why Maggie May came up to Edinburgh the other day to impress Nicola.

    We have to believe that the strategy is to exhaust all the impossible options to keep Scotland in the EU and the UK, then there will be only one option left on the table – independence.

    As I’ve typed before, if you’re a ‘Yesser’, your priority should be independence for Scotland. Membership of the EU, retention of the monarchy, currency, membership of NATO, and so on, are the decisions that can be made by Scots, WHEN WE ARE INDEPENDENT.

    For now, we have put our trust in the SNP. If it all goes belly-up, the SNP will be punished at the ballot box. We have to accept that they know what they’re doing.

    Indyref2 next year, with independence in the EU 18 months later.

    We CAN do it. Will we?

  41. Grouse Beater
    Ignored
    says:

    Papko: “I lived in a squat in Kings Cross”

    I can beat that.

    I lived in an old disused camper van kept in a London back street garage behind other vehicles, but no one knew. One of the wooden doors into the garage was easy to pry open enough to squeeze through.

    I crept in there every night at 1am. Washed myself in the gents at 7am, and was gone before the staff arrived.

    Somehow, after a long journey, I ended up demanding full democracy for Scotland and a better society, not more power for the British state.

    Strange that – eh?

    PS: Try tellin’ tha’ ta young people today, and they won’t believe ya!

  42. Thepnr
    Ignored
    says:

    @Papko

    You lying tit. Did you abandon your squatter friends after meeting your SNP friends with their big hooses and aw?

    We have your lot in the run us Pap.

  43. Thepnr
    Ignored
    says:

    Sorry using a mobile LOL

  44. Graeme
    Ignored
    says:

    Kezia says she doesn’t want to choose between 2 unions but nobody’s asking her to choose between 2 unions (if you can call the UK a union) her choice is between the Labour Party and and the Scottish people she’s elected to represent.

    Not a difficult choice for anyone with integrity

    Graeme

  45. Macbeda
    Ignored
    says:

    @ Brian Doonthetoon 10:15 pm

    Agree with all he says.

  46. Grouse Beater
    Ignored
    says:

    Paula Rose: “Oh goody, a new post *giggle*”

    🙂

  47. yesindyref2
    Ignored
    says:

    @Papko “Glenrothes the capital of Fife”. Yes, that’s what google throws up …

  48. ben madigan
    Ignored
    says:

    haven’t read everything in the comments but here’s a few thoughts and questions on the topic, as it refers to Northern ireland and scotland

    – Enjoy

    https://eurofree3.wordpress.com/2016/07/16/post-brexit-unionists-you-have-a-choice-to-make-eu-or-uk/

  49. Fireproofjim
    Ignored
    says:

    Vikings dotter and other anti-Eu posters.
    The whole point is that if Scotland is independent and in the EU we can choose to leave or stay.at the moment we wish to.
    At the moment we have no choice and just get what England wants.
    Independence gives us freedom of choice which we will never get from Westminster.

  50. Grouse Beater
    Ignored
    says:

    Graeme: “Kezia says she doesn’t want to choose between 2 unions … Not a difficult choice for anyone with integrity.”

    Ay, yes, but very difficult for anyone of little brain.

  51. Brian Doonthetoon
    Ignored
    says:

    Hi Grouse Beater.

    “anyone of little brain,
    would find it bestest, to abstain.”

  52. Robert Louis
    Ignored
    says:

    Lochside at 939 pm,

    Good post. Of course never forget that the so-called ‘UK’ supreme court was a creation of no less than Tony Blair, only a few years ago. It is a pretendy court.

    Scottish judgements should be made in Scotland. I find the way the Scots legal profession bow down to this made up court in London simply pathetic.

    And then of course there was MacCormick Vs. Lord advocate, 1953, which considered the supposed sovereignty of Westminster, and is implications for changes to the union treaty – and implications in Scots law.

    http://www.bailii.org/scot/cases/ScotCS/1953/1953_SC_396.html

  53. call me dave
    Ignored
    says:

    J McTernan on the radio 5 now debating on Corbyn & the Momentum Group and the upcoming vote. £3 becomes £25 to vote and cut off dates. etc

    Internet trolls… too much abuse on social media… momentum sending round vile stuff… labour left abusing MPs… and more
    Labour MPs are a virus…and worse ‘bloody Tories’ 🙂

    That’s not even McTernan it’s two women … all talking at once… one sounds like Eagle? 🙂

    Sure Mundell was at the Troon Open Golf today or it’s his doppeglanger.

    Mc Ternan voting for Owen.

  54. Papko
    Ignored
    says:

    Thx for your courtesy GB

    Somehow, after a long journey, I ended up demanding full democracy for Scotland and a better society, not more power for the British state.

    Strange that – eh?

    Just one of those things, there are as many ways to interpret life’s experiences as there are experiences.

    Bit like films really , if there was only one impression to be drawn from a film ,we would only need one person to write one review.

    Its not meant as a criticism of your excellent film reviews by the way.

    PS: Try tellin’ tha’ ta young people today, and they won’t believe ya!

    I agree with that as well,because young people in Scotland today, have it too comfortable, the house is warm, the telly is big, the job mundane.
    But stodgy security beats the risk of opportunity, if you don’t try you never get.

    Not ALL young folk find Scotland bereft of opportunity I hasten to add , in Fife and Angus there must be 10000 seasonal fruit pickers , working on the farms, living in caravans, getting a suntan and making a few pound to take back to Eastern Europe.

  55. Grouse Beater
    Ignored
    says:

    Briandoonthetoon: ““anyone of little brain,
    would find it bestest, to abstain.”

    To follow that I’m quite bemused, because my brain is rarely used.

  56. Brian Doonthetoon
    Ignored
    says:

    Hi Grouse Beater.

    “Never worry, Beater of Grouse,
    The answer’s always ben the house.” (Posh version, fur the meenister.)

  57. Marie Clark
    Ignored
    says:

    Breeks 9.08, I think you’re on to something there. In all the crap that’s has been flung around since 2014 I’ve often wondered about our articles of union. Why the hell do we not tell Westminster to do one. We want a divorce and declare ourselves out of this union, instead of all this shilly shallying.

    I’m sick to the back teeth listening to all these yoons harping on about what we can and can’t do. Let’s go and have a look at the articles of union, an declare ourselves out. Simples, mibies aye or mibies naw.

    Robert Peffers, come oot frae ahint a’ yir paper and paint and gie’s yir opinion oan the articles o’ union, and wither we can jist sae we hae hid enough. Divorce, and bugger aff outa here.

  58. call me dave
    Ignored
    says:

    GMS today: Three points worth a listen:

    PS: What good is Phil Goodlad / shortbread sport 🙁 I ask you?

    1:
    about 21mins in Ivan McKee and Jackson Carlaw on Sturgeon meeting May. (7mins)

    2:
    1hr 23mins in Labour darn Sarf and in Scotland. Jerry Hassen and Paul Masson Federalism for ‘Scottish’labour but (they’re skint)
    (8mins)

    3:
    Brexit in Ireland / N. Ireland borders ‘interesting’.

    1hr 37min in Alan Murray …borders? ‘Izzy Wizzy lets get busy’ fudge / solution but not for Scotland 🙁
    (7mins)

    http://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/b07k12ch#play

  59. Papko
    Ignored
    says:

    @Papko

    You lying tit. Did you abandon your squatter friends after meeting your SNP friends with their big hooses and aw?

    We have your lot in the run us Pap.

    @Thepnr

    Sounds like a rather raucous football match.

    I wonder where in Scotland you can live, as the concept of people owning their own homes and supporting the party that promotes Scotland’s interests above all, is alien to you. ?

    One in three of those eligible to vote in Scotland support the SNP, and 3 out of 5 Scots live in an owner occupied home.

  60. Molly
    Ignored
    says:

    Papko
    You ever tried berry picking or howking tattles? It was such a fun pastime the school holidays were designed around it .

    I have and now I can’t believe I actually pleaded with my Granny to let me go but it’s not like a gap year in Tuscany , believe me.

    You were paid peanuts per punnet, no toilets , scratched to bits from the gooseberries and the smell of crushed berries on the vintage bus that left from Letham has stayed with me to this day.

    Schools are doing gymnastics to try and inspire the young and wake them up to the fact we live in a global world , there are no jobs you can now walk into but I’m sure you’ll find while the ‘ young folk ‘ you talk about may not be berry picking, they are serving you in every fast food outlet, serving you in every restaurant , serving you at the cinema, bowling club and hotel because if they were all out berry picking there would be no where for us oldies to go .

    How many over 25s do you see waiting tables in your favourite eating place in the evening ?

  61. Kenny
    Ignored
    says:

    Joanna Cherry made a speech in Parliament which pointed out that the supremacy (sovereignty) of Parliament in England is not 100% cast in iron.

    Back in 1914, one law maker seemed to think it could be laid aside (it was over the matter of the mutiny of the Ulster Unionists — don’t ask me for details, but we did it at school, I recall).

    But one thing that is for sure if the sovereignty of the Scottish people… which is why the trespassing laws are different in Engerland and Ecosse.

    The Scottish model of “electing” a sovereign (and chasing him out if necessary) has precedents. Novgorod invited a Scandinavian prince to come and rule over them. But in 1136, the Novgorodians dismissed Prince Vsyevolod, after he allegedly fled from the field of battle, among other things.

    This would make the interesting possibility that, in theory, Elizabeth could be removed as Queen of Scots but could not be removed as Queen of England. So say the UK has a referendum on the issue and she is told to “leave”, this could only apply to Scotland — not in England, no matter how the English voted…

  62. Dave McEwan Hill
    Ignored
    says:

    What’s actually wrong with borders?
    (And what’s actually wrong with the Euro as a currency as a matter if interest?)

    Hasn’t England just voted to have borders with every other country in Europe?

    Am I just daft?

  63. yesindyref2
    Ignored
    says:

    I don’t even know what’s going on.

    Back to Start Trek, beam me up

  64. Ian Brotherhood
    Ignored
    says:

    Aw, bless the wee morning-strolls/spectacular-own-goals, they keep trying, so here’s one for them all, past and present:

    The Verve, ‘Rolling People’ –

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=r3cEls5JUqk

  65. heedtracker
    Ignored
    says:

    What’s actually wrong with borders?
    (And what’s actually wrong with the Euro as a currency as a matter if interest?)

    Hasn’t England just voted to have borders with every other country in Europe?

    Am I just daft?

    The millionaire tory twat that financed Vot Nob orders.com, and the BBC gave up days of BBC 24 ramming it down our throats, thanks again Gavin Esler, campaigned Leave.

    Malcolm Offord in Leave action.

    https://archive.is/KC0lW

    God spare us the torboys.

  66. K1
    Ignored
    says:

    Does the same ‘troll’ not realise he’s recognisable from previous s-trolls on Wings?

    Fucking idiot.

  67. call me dave
    Ignored
    says:

    Hark the Herald!

    SNP review is considering a separate currency in an independent Scotland

    http://archive.is/kkNqa

  68. galamcennalath
    Ignored
    says:

    Dave McEwan Hill says

    “Hasn’t England just voted to have borders with every other country in Europe?”

    Ah, but as a special country those borders are going to be extra special.

    Goods will flow freely across them with no tariffs. And the people of said special land will be free to work and live wherever they wish. However, being special, means it must be protected from the aliens who live beyond its special borders and covet all that is lies within. The borders will be secure and impregnable to all the non specials beyond.

    … in their dreams!

  69. heedtracker
    Ignored
    says:

    In precis, BBC Scotland is shite.

    https://archive.is/joQJ0

  70. call me dave
    Ignored
    says:

    @heedtracker

    Loved that find: 🙂 The final nail.

    BBC Scotland ought to be a powerhouse of creativity and talent, reflecting the new, vibrant and dynamic politics we have been witnessing in this country. Instead, under MacQuarrie, it is a poorly resourced branch office fit only for collecting rents and keeping the natives happy on a diet of court cases, car crashes and gangsters.

  71. Dr Jim
    Ignored
    says:

    Kezia doesn’t want to choose between two unions but that’s it though isn’t it with the EU you get a choice with the UK they tell you what you’ve chosen whether you like it or not

    A bit like Labour leaders, today good, tomorrow bad, let’s get a different one who’s no good and we’ll say he’s good till he’s not good then we’ll have another election till we wish we were dead because the public’s laughing like drains

    Djae think Kezia’s ever going to realise she’s in a really crap party

    The Maggie May party now that’s much better, in, out, shake it all about until they arrive at a decision none of them wants but to show their authority they’ll try and drag Scotland down with them because that’s what a real Union does to benefit it’s people ruin them and then say we told you so

    Here in Scotland country Willie Rennie’s still in hiding underneath his trampoline I’m told, and refusing to come out until we get a constitutional convention on slides for the elderly and more money for Tonka Trucks for the wee ones

    Patrick Harvie was seen today expounding on the merits of the use of natural human gas for fuel after a particularly heavy lunch of Haricot beans, quorn chicken substitute and fruits of the forest for desert outside his favourite restaurant before seeing his favourite film at the Odeon “How green was my valet” Ah memories

    Ruth Mini May Davidson heavily disguised in a Burka was spotted outside the First Ministers house patrolling up and down hoping for the first word no doubt of when the FM calls the unsullied to arms to march with her dragons on Westminster
    The game was up for Ms Davidson though because of her ambling farmers style gait and her inability to control the foam from her mouth when speaking

    All in all a day of no politicking yet loaded with rumour innuendo and outright lies mainly reported by a Scottish media too lazy to actually collect or collate news except to just check with David Torrance for another of his political insights from his many book and then print that

    We shall wait now till the morning for the great Andrew Marr much respected (repo,journ,) man, from the BBC to glean the truth from the lies or indeed the other way round and tell us like it is, or isn’t

    Night Night

  72. Ian Brotherhood
    Ignored
    says:

    @Heedtracker (12.40) –

    Great link, cheers.

  73. call me dave
    Ignored
    says:

    May’s plan for “UK approach” to Brexit faces immediate test

    http://archive.is/CSVpJ

    David Coburn: 5,000 deposit to stand as UKIP leader will deter “total tossers” in party

    http://archive.is/Jz6lS

  74. carjamtic
    Ignored
    says:

    ‘Jamming with diddley squat’

    Right on man.

  75. msean
    Ignored
    says:

    Remember,all voters,including English voters,the majority of UK voters, were warned in the pre EU referendum debates that Scotland would have another indyref and leave the UK if leave won the EU referendum.

  76. yesindyref2
    Ignored
    says:

    @Dr Jim
    If you tink about it, Sturgeon is being knocked back on her desperate attempts to stay in the EU while staying in the UK, being rebuffed all over the EU and even at Westminster, it’s such a shame, boo-hoo, I bet she feels nauseated and humiluated, how does she keep such a brave face on things. Umm.

    In the same vein Dugdale is agonising over the Unions because she doesn’t want to make a choice is it the UK or can it be the EU oh, I don’t know what to do I need some guidance from my party what do you think what’s that you say you think we should go for Indy well I don’t know that’s a big step for us but if that’s what you want I have to respect the wishes of my grassroots and party …

    She’s one of us!

  77. schrodingers cat
    Ignored
    says:

    plan B keep yer fuckin’ gbp

    im with hardeep, i couldnt care about the tories threatening to electrifying hadrians wall, all the while arguing that no borders are needed between NI and ROI

    id rather be poor than have anything to do with bojo, (he who published a poem saying scots should be exterminated! i jest not)

    why wouldnt we want a hard border between us? id rather be poor than be associated in any way with westminster!

  78. Robert J. Sutherland
    Ignored
    says:

    DMH @ 23:47:

    Hasn’t England just voted to have borders with every other country in Europe?

    Oh, nicely put!

    Everything else Brexit just flows from that.

    Another example of promising people they can have their cake and eat it. Someone is going to be unhappy when they finally realise that with Brexit its actually, most definitely, impossible.

    Eh, Kez…?

  79. manandboy
    Ignored
    says:

    Brexit is going to be difficult and messy. The powers behind the throne, like those who tell the Prime Minister what to say and do, have decided that getting the UK through this mess is best done by ‘lesser’ officials, like Theresa May and the rest of the Cabinet.

    Theresa May came to Scotland to meet Ruth Davidson. The meeting with Nicola was just a piece of propaganda and a cover for a get-together with the Tories in Scotland.

    Theresa May has only one objective which is to delay Scottish independence for as long as possible.

    Nicola has been thrown into the deep end but failure to deliver Independence is not an option. No Independence means goodbye Nicola. Scotland has no future without self-determination. It’s that simple.

    Propaganda in the UK in the next two years will easily surpass that of North Korea. But like in North Korea, the majority of the population in Scotland will have no idea of what’s going on.

    It is now clear that Scotland will need the help of the EU to cope with the British Establishment and its huge propaganda machine.

    I recently drove from Glasgow to Elgin via Perth, Dundee and Aberdeen. I saw only evidence of wealth in endless rich farmlands and in transport infrastructure. There was little sign of poverty. There is undoubted poverty in Scotland but it’s mainly in the deprived areas of towns and cities. Scotland has been lied to by Westminster, which wants Scots to believe they are poor and unable to manage by themselves. Travelling throughout Scotland paints a very different picture.

    The IndyRef14 result is completely outdated, such has been the enormous changes which have taken place in the UK since then. The plain fact is that had IndyRef14 been IndyRef16 it would have been a very different result. The fact that Theresa May doesn’t understand that, is perhaps an indication that she is not up to the job – like the rest of the Cabinet. But then, I think we all know that.

    One thing is for sure – the Union is one big lie.

  80. INDEPENDENT
    Ignored
    says:

    As mentioned above What has happened to Chilcote.

    Electoral Fraud, establishment paedophiles, all buried beneath a pile of SH**E !!!!!!
    Let’s get out of this Nicola !!!! ASAP Please.

  81. Dr Jim
    Ignored
    says:

    @Call me Dave

    Practically every single word of that Herald article is invention and guesswork or to put it another way made up shite out of some diddy’s head

    And SNP insider told them nothing, that’s more crap written by a paper that has no information, every single SNP member knows perfectly well that no strategy is ever discussed or released to newspapers

    The Herald is even worse than the Daily Record

    Pitifull

  82. yesindyref2
    Ignored
    says:

    @Dr Jim
    Depends. Sometimes parties “leak” to test the water. I think this is one of those times.

  83. geeo
    Ignored
    says:

    My response to being told kezia is NOT an idiot..
    Maybe i was being harsh…?

    Judged on her approach to the utterly clear choice facing Scotland, and considering she is supposed to, as a ‘leader’, lead her party, (accountancy unit to be technical) for her to state that she does not want to choose between the 2 ‘unions’ is indeed an idiotic stance to have.

    Even worse than that, she is taking the public for idiots by taking a leaders wage and to not have a legitimate stance on THE biggest decision EVER for the Labour party in Scotland and for Scotland herself.

    It has crystalised into such a stark Binary Choice, she has a simple choice, yet refuses to state what it is.

    The brexit vote changed the independence argument completely for labour in Scotland, it is less about “can Scotland afford to be independent” (course it can, it always could) it is now more like “can Scotland afford NOT to be independent”

    Labour uk wide policy was REMAIN, but if Labour in Scotland, including Kezia dugdale, think we are “better together” in the Uk and OUT the EU, then they should TELL the people of Scotland that and campaign for an immediate invoking of Article 50.

    If labour in Scotland and Kezia believe we are Better in the EU, then the absolutely MUST come out for the ONLY way to achieve that, supporting independence for Scotland.

    Hell, she would surely SAVE her party up here and have a lasting legacy to be remembered for.
    Only an idiot could get such a simple binary choice wrong, guess we will find out soon.

  84. Ken500
    Ignored
    says:

    Unelected politicians are now in government in Britain carrying ou policies the majority do not support, embezzling £Billions of public money. No one who cared about others would join a Unionist Party, especially in Scotland. Only in self interest.

    Unelected Unioists criminals are now in a majority in Westminster. 2nd rate Unionist rejects are in Holyrood.

    The majority in the UK want to stay in the EU. 17million out of 63Million voted to leave.

    Unionist politicians are criminal murdering liars who have destroyed the world economy to line their pockets, embezzling £Billions of public money and sanction and starve the vulnerable to death, worldwide. Most of them should be in jail.

  85. Breeks
    Ignored
    says:

    @ Brian Doonthetoon 10:15pm

    I agree with your point Brian, that our sovereignty is channelled/expressed through our democratically elected Government, but the essential difference is that sovereignty remains with the Scottish people.
    Why is our Scottish Government advocating independence from the UK, when independence is not within the UK’s grasp to give us?

    It is not independence we need. Sovereignty is ours. It is the Act of Union we wish repealed, because it binds us in a political union which is a poor fit Scotland, but it is quite wrong to believe the Act of Union saw Scotland’s sovereignty heading south to Westminster.

    Scotland is a sovereign nation which signed up to co-join its parliament with the English parliament and create the United Kingdom, but where that United Kingdom fails is the misguided presumption that Sovereignty could be transposed from the Scottish people onto their elected representitives. Any Act of Union which abdicates Scotland’s sovereignty is void because sovereignty is non transferrable; no lord, monarch, or parliamentarian can bargain away any part of Scotland’s sovereignty because it is not theirs to bargain.
    Scotland is a sovereign country which needs to repeal the Act of Union. The 1707 Act of Union was an article of legislation which fudged the issue of Scotland’s sovereignty, and laid the foundations for any number of misplaced presumptions which stemmed directly from this fudge.

    It is not our sovereignty that needs taken back, it is the widespread belief both north and south of the border that the Act of Union took it from us. It did not. The Act of Union is the archtypal dichotomy; the immoveable object meeting the unstoppable force; the surrendering of that which can never be surrendered.

    Repealing the Act of Union is not the same thing as securing Scottish Independence. The Act of Union was never the competent removal of Scotland’s sovereignty which it purported to be. The Act of Union was a fudge which took it for granted that Scottish sovereignty could be held by anyone other than Scotland’s people.

    If we acknowledge the principles of the Declaration of Arbroath and the Claim of Right, and legal precedent says we do, then the 1707 Act of Union is null and void because it purports to be doing that which cannot be done.

    The fudge has held sway for 309 years quite contrary to the exactitude of true legal justice.

  86. Breeks
    Ignored
    says:

    Last point I missed out…

    This isn’t a choice to make. Either the Act of Union is null and void or it isn’t. Choice doesn’t come into it.

    It begs innumerable questions. One of which being whether Scotland was bullied into signing the Act of Union under duress from the ascendency of English militarism, but knew very well it was a document that would placate the English, buy a little peace, but give Scotland a get out clause whenever it was needed.

  87. Graeme
    Ignored
    says:

    If my understanding of history is correct (I’m sure someone will correct me if I’m wrong) Scotland wasn’t bullied into union with England unless you call bribery bullying, England was an emerging colonial power and Scotland was a failed one, we were bankrupt.

    The reigning monarch at the time Queen Ann had no heirs so the English parliament passed an act of succession to offer the crown to the house of Hanover on the death of Ann then proposed a union with Scotland on condition they accepted the same succession in order to stave off the possibility of a Stuart restoration in Scotland and civil war

    At the time a union probably seemed the logical thing to do and probably was,it solved dynastic and economic problems facing both countries at that time but that was 309 years ago and none of that applies today, we are suffocating in this union and we desperately need to get out, the union has served it’s purpose and we need to let it die as dignified a death as possible.

    Anyway that’s my understanding of the history of the union I’m sure there are other who can correct my errors or misunderstandings

    Graeme

  88. ScottieDog
    Ignored
    says:

    @geeo
    Re Dugdale ,
    I fully agree and it shows that she isn’t in charge of the decisions for her own party. Sadly the establishment press will give her an easy ride.
    Slab don’t have a plan A, let alone a plan B.

  89. Tackety Beets
    Ignored
    says:

    Hi Graeme ,
    There have been posts on FB & Twitter over recent years which show that in 1707 Scotland was financially on a sound footing and England was broke ( my poor memory ? £30m in debt which would have been a pretty penny in 1700s)

    I find this iPad useless for links ,otherwise I would post it .

    I’m sure it will be easily found.
    @MrMalky posted recently too if that helps .

  90. Breeks
    Ignored
    says:

    @ Graeme 8:38

    Bullying is my bad choice of word. The population of Scotland, where sovereignty lies, had no say in the Union. The “lords” who agreed to it, for whatever reason, exceeded their authority to do it, and there were anti union riots and protests in Edinburgh and Glasgow, and further afield. I seem to recall Dumfies (?) might even have martyrs who lay down their lives to oppose it. It certainly wasn’t the unfettered choice of the sovereign people of Scotland.

    Even so, I wonder about the party who agreed to the union, and how they simply must have been conversant with Scots law and sovereignty. They must have glossed over the question of Scottish sovereignty, but was that by accident or design? To me, it seems prudent wisdom to sign an agreement which you know has a get-out clause in case of emergency. The English for their part would not have any reciprocal get out.

    My point is wondering whether the Scottish signatories to the Act of Union knew it wasn’t worth the parchment it was written on before signing it. They’ve been tarred with the brush for selling out Scotland, but if they were “inconstant” people shall we say, and ready to sell out Scotland, wouldn’t they be savvy enough to sell out the English too if they thought they had a clever ruse to do it? Perhaps they were too clever, and the Union stood, and has for 3 centuries.

    It’s a big thing to sign away a nation’s sovereignty, even if you are a Lord. You might not lose as much much sleep at night if you believed the document you signed was fatally flawed and worthless. I don’t know mind, it’s just my own conjecture.

  91. Graeme
    Ignored
    says:

    Tackety Beets says:
    17 July, 2016 at 9:30 am

    Hi Graeme ,
    There have been posts on FB & Twitter over recent years which show that in 1707 Scotland was financially on a sound footing and England was broke ( my poor memory ? £30m in debt which would have been a pretty penny in 1700s)

    I find this iPad useless for links ,otherwise I would post it .

    I’m sure it will be easily found.
    @MrMalky posted recently too if that helps .

    Maybe someone will be kind enough to post these links I’d like to see them, to be honest I find it hard to believe Scotland could have been on a sound financial footing it was only a few years earlier Darien collapsed along with an estimated 50%-75% of our entire coinage

  92. yesindyref2
    Ignored
    says:

    @Graeme
    Substantially wrong I’m afraid. To start with Scotland wasn’t bankrupt, a few Barons were and they were in Parliament, and were bought out. Then others were threatened so didn’t turn up to vote, then none of them turned up to reconvene Parliament – possibly for fear of being ripped to shreds by angry mobs. So Queen Anned sent Roseberry to dissolve the Parliament by proclamation – which neither he not she would have had the actual authority to do. But others will tell a better story than me.

  93. Chic McGregor
    Ignored
    says:

    Yeah! My twitter account doesn’t let me post. If it did I would start a #What is Plan A? in memory of their What is Plan B? mantra.

  94. Breeks
    Ignored
    says:

    Ask and ye shall find….

    What a tremendous resource we have in Wings…

    If the link works. What am I doing wrong???

    //wingsoverscotland.com/weekend-essay-skintland-britnat-mythology-and-the-darien-scheme/

  95. Tackety Beets
    Ignored
    says:

    Thanks Breeks , I’d forgotten that one .

    The Book ref is Restoration Scotland 1660 1690 Clare Jackson 2003 Mr Malky says its £56 but may be in Libraries

    Must be quite a book.

    I’ll try link to Twitter on next post ( Incase it effs up this post)

  96. Graeme
    Ignored
    says:

    @ Breeks

    Thanks for the link,

    The sum total of my knowledge of Darien comes from John Prebbles book The Darien Disaster which I’ve read a couple of times it is a very in depth book but I suppose it’s easy to misinterpret what’s written or misunderstand or simply take it all in, but it left me with the opinion that Darien was instrumental in the the act of union whether we were broke or not and without question the saddest story I’ve ever read

    Anyway your link it was very informative

    Thank you

  97. Rev. Stuart Campbell
    Ignored
    says:

    “The European question formed part of the arguement and the country still voted to stay in the UK so what is it specifically about the departure from Europe now that is forming the groud for a second referendum?”

    The No campaign was conducted EXPLICITLY on a promise that a No vote meant Scotland staying in the EU. That promise has been broken, with very serious consequences.

  98. K1
    Ignored
    says:

    Breeks, once you’ve found the page you are looking for on Wings just copy the link from the address bar and paste into the comment box. You don’t have to do anything else.

    It’s only with you tube vids that you take the ‘http’ out before posting. Everything else is ‘post as is’. 🙂

    http://wingsoverscotland.com/weekend-essay-skintland-britnat-mythology-and-the-darien-scheme/

  99. Papko
    Ignored
    says:

    “Bullying is my bad choice of word. The population of Scotland, where sovereignty lies, had no say in the Union. The “lords” who agreed to it, for whatever reason, exceeded their authority to do it, and there were anti union riots and protests in Edinburgh and Glasgow, and further afield. I seem to recall Dumfies (?) might even have martyrs who lay down their lives to oppose it. It certainly wasn’t the unfettered choice of the sovereign people of Scotland.”

    @Breeks

    Do you have any examples of what was the “unfettered choice of the sovereign people of Scotland” in the 50 years either side of 1707 ?

    General Election results, canvassing, polling,anything that would be considered a democratic vote by today’s standards.

    or was “rioting” , the measure of democratic will in those days.

  100. Breeks
    Ignored
    says:

    @Papko 1:29

    There are lots of references to the public unrest which followed the act of Union, and a deep mistrust of the English as a hostile adversary.

    This site is very good:

    https://scottishhistorysociety.com/learning-resources/popular-opposition-to-the-ratification-of-the-treaty-of-anglo-scottish-union-in-1706-7/

    There are also supporting references you can check out too.

    The Scottish reaction to the Act of Union is not an issue which I’ve ever seen disputed.

  101. Fred
    Ignored
    says:

    There was the threat of Marlborough & an English army being used to support the “Bought & Sold for English Gold” party in the Scots Parliament. English troops were to be used in Scotland for the next half century just as they had interfered in Scotland’s affairs since the Wars of the Covenant.

    The duke of Argyll, victor of Sheriffmuir, tried to have the Union repealed at Westminster but the attempt was narrowly defeated. The cards have been stacked against Scotland ever since, witness the coming Trident debate.

  102. yesindyref2
    Ignored
    says:

    @Graeme
    Prebble is great for getting an introduction, his Lion in the North was one of my favourites, as was the Highland Clearances. But his perspective is from the UK version of history – and the winners do indeed, change history to suit themselves. I dount it’s much his fault, the material he used would have been UK-centric by default.

  103. Molly
    Ignored
    says:

    Papko
    Try The Liberty Tree by Murray Armstrong. Fair enough it’s about Thomas Muir (1765) but it explains the lay of the land very clearly for ordinary people, the mindset at the time and it’s also a brilliant read .

    Also the role of Dundas in Scotland and at UK level throws a lot of light on how Scotland was viewed .

  104. Breeks
    Ignored
    says:

    Isn’t it criminal that this isn’t taught in our schools? Or at least it wasn’t when I was at school.

    If modern culture could be summed up as cellophane, then Scotland’s culture is finest crushed velvet, but crushed so far beyond reason.

  105. Haggishunter
    Ignored
    says:

    I’m just yer everyday working mannie, but why is it I could see that it would be a choice between 2 unions and Kezia couldn’t?

    Edit, one union with no say and another with a seat and representation.

    If Papko wants to dispute that he will need to ask himself does Scotland have a say about Nukes being based on the doorstep of her biggest city? So we are not in a union then, we are under a take over, or is Scotland just a word, proud Scot but…

  106. Papko
    Ignored
    says:

    @Breeks

    Thx for answer, but my point is “The Nobles made ALL the decisions in 1707 , and the 1000 years prior, there was no Universal suffrage, the majority of people DID NOT HAVE A VOTE.
    All decisions were made by the Elite, the Act of Union was unpopular as evinced of instances of rioting.

    But we cant judge it by our democratic standards of today.

    @Haggis

    Opinon polls in Scotland show 50:50 for Trident, its only the left and CND that really care about it

    it may well be 99% of our elected MP’s, but 1.5 million Scots voted and got 3 ELECTED MP’S

    The UK is a country of 650 constituencies, it is divided into areas of circa 70k people on average, AND EVERYONE IN THE WHOLE UK HAS ONE VOTE ONLY EVERY % YEARS IN THE GE.

    If it was democratic union of 2 Kingdoms as some suggest , then you would only need one person to speak for Scotland our FM, and she would speak direct to one TM.



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