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Into the briar patch

Posted on July 14, 2016 by

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    1. 14 07 16 12:56

      Into the briar patch | speymouth

    2. 15 07 16 15:27

      Time for Nicola to Pick a Fight - Craig Murray

    3. 15 07 16 16:56

      Time for Nicola to Pick a Fight | speymouth

    345 to “Into the briar patch”

    1. Gray says:

      Philip Hammond has said he cannot envisage a scenario where Scotland has a different relationship with the EU from the rest of the UK.

      He’s either very unimaginative or a bit thick, neither qualities you’d want in the person responsible for the economy.

    2. Graeme McCormick says:

      So David Mundell being an honourable man resigns as Scottish Secretary before he is appointed

    3. Jimmy The Pict says:

      It was only a matter of time. As one W.Alexander said ‘Bring it on’

      So, Lord Forsyth for Scottish Sec. anyone?

    4. CamernoB Brodie says:

      Well, there goes the neighbourhood. 🙂

    5. heedtracker says:

      Still a tough choice date wise. Lose and Scotland will be shat on for decades to come. Rich get richer, poor get poorer, its the UKOK way.

    6. Macart says:

      Clocked that.

      Hammond off to a roaring start in the new job then. 😀 LOLZ

    7. Murray McCallum says:

      It’s a blow if The Scotsman assumes Nicola Sturgeon will dutifully follow exactly what Philip Hammond tells her!

      They really have their finger on the pulse of Scotland.

    8. What this latest episode highlights is another lie told
      by the unionists during the independence referendum that Scotland is an equal partner in this union.

    9. gordoz says:

      On behalf of scotchland; gutted frankly

      pfffftttt

    10. Brian Hill says:

      Blows blow over. We’re used to that. Same old message, then. ‘Scotland, suck it up.’ Grist to the mill, I’d say.

    11. Dr Jim says:

      And here comes the big threat, try for Independence and lose and we’ll have you, strip you, remove your parliament and Scotland’s gone to be replaced by the county of “Further up England”

      So what are you gonna do?

      Sectarian Yoons all over Scotland and Tories rejoice

      Mibbees, But I think we’ll just see about that

    12. Philip Hammond is some piece of work. I fully expect the UK will be tendering once more to run Saudi prisons. They will spin it as an advantage of being outside the EU and the ECHR. Even Gove thought running Saudi prisons was a step too far. We need to get this lot out of our lives asap.

    13. Bob Mack says:

      I’m ready. Nothing more needs said.

    14. Breeks says:

      Ach! Just give Hammond back his job with Top Gear. Poor lad is out his depth in politics and floundering frankly.

    15. Karmanaut says:

      It seems like such an odd stance to take, particularly when you add May’s “the union is everything” speech from the other day.

      They do seem to be entrenching their position that Scotland is coming out of the EU regardless of how it voted, which they know must lead to indyref2.

      What can they do? Block indyref2? But how can they get away with that politically? They’d effectively be saying that Scotland is not a country, but a colony — which is nuts. That position would be impossible to maintain. It would anger Scots and make the UK look like some tinpot dictatorship in which democracy can be suspended at will (a bit like what is happening with the Labour party right now).

      They can’t be sure they’d win another indyref, surely? Or is all this just desperate bluster and they haven’t figured out a plan yet?

    16. Ken500 says:

      Hammond called Glasgow a ‘wasteland’.It would be if he got his way. Fortunately that is not going to happen. The unelected Tories are on their way out and they know it. ‘Psycho bastards’ Their card is marked after this fiasco. Lying, greedy troughers. Never, ever trust a Tory.

    17. heedtracker says:

      Ligger Neil’s BBC Politics ongoing joyful BBC coronation of Thatcher 2 is pretty spectacular, upper class twits explaining UKOK stuff like how Bojo as Foreign Sec is “clever politics.”

    18. Ken500 says:

      Just as well Scotland has important friends in Europe who believe in self determination. EU Law. Westminster Unionists have signed their own demise. They will not be feathering their nest for very much longer. Cockoos in the nest.

      Wings soaring over Scotland. Thanks a billion Rev Stu.

    19. Grant says:

      The Scotsman, as read by 0.45% of the Scottish population (and that’s being generous with the rounding up of the decimal point and airline freebies).

    20. Mike says:

      So,
      Scotland voted remain….Tick
      Scotland told Brexit means Brexit…Tick
      Scotland told to get behind UK….Tick
      Scotland told it can’t have separate EU position…Tick
      Another Thatcher style Prime Minister Imposed….Tick
      BawJaws as foreign secretary (FFS who knew).Extra Tick
      Article 50 button pressed……..(nearly)

      One more piece of the puzzle and we are game on for indy 2. Bugger it up this time and we deserve what’s coming.

    21. Gordon Hay says:

      It is surely more of a blow to Labour and others who have been pretending that some sort of half-way-house solution is feasible.

    22. Bill Hume says:

      Have we so much to fear from another independence referendum, even if we lose again?

      I’m not sure we do. It’s only been 2 years since the last one and already we have seen the change of circumstance which will trigger the next (of that I have no doubt).

      Unionists kept banging on about ‘neverendums’, is this what they fear most, that Scotland will just keep trying until we succeed?

      Imagine a future, after an indyref2, which we just loose. How is Westminster going to implement it’s more extreem policies with the threat of indyref3 hanging like the sword of Damocles, over it?

      I think we have less to lose than we think…..and everything to gain.

    23. Sunshine on Crieff says:

      And I also remember The Courier a good few months back reporting that a separate EU deal for Scotland (ie reverse-Greenland) would be a blow to Sturgeon.

      Is there any possibility, and alternative scenario at all, that isn’t a blow to Sturgeon?

    24. Clootie says:

      The Scotsman…printed in Scotland but written and run by Unionists.

    25. Andrew McLean says:

      I don’t know how you can stand it Rev, all that negativity, double speak, lies and white gloved Bible carrying unionist woman “Wee May”from the Sons of Prince William, (“isn’t he lovely what with his wife and cute kids, he will be a great king not like that tree hugging nutter Charlie”) Westminster flute band.

      For me I couldn’t take any more politics last night, the orgasmic panting by the state media as they thrashed themselves into a masturbatory fervour over Thatcher May’s erection was just too sycophantically embarrassing, and quite frankly, disturbing!

      So imagine my surprise when tuning in to the ministry of truth expecting to find weakened exhausted propagandists busily clearing up the stains of last night’s excesses, instead catching first some academic telling me we got it all wrong in the 1960s and the rise of the SNP was due to a misunderstanding on the causes and effects of the battle of Culloden ?, no I kid you not! this academic so convoluting the last 270 years to be soo, soo, SNP BAD, the man must be desperate for his own TV show! After all the competition is just pathetic! he honestly thinks we are a bunch of folk singers harping after a history that never was whilst singing the Corries Songbook! Ha Ha Ha, Ha ha!

      Well This is front page news for the colony, well main headline reporting anyway, a fringing book about a battle 270 years ago, that one English vicar after the red coats bonneted the wounded and raped every woman they could find said was a stain on the character of every Englishman!

      I can’t remember his name or the author but it isn’t important , I honestly don’t really care, terrible as it was it means nothing to me, my politics or my hopes and ambition for my Nation Scotland, proud and Independent, after all , it’s only stupid unionists that glorify battles, 1690, 1690, 1690, anyone? the 12th, the marches, drinking in the park, violence, garish uniforms “Katholicks we dinny HATE CATHOLICS”, ” it’s just our sacred tradition to play tin whistles (badly)and bang the big drum (loudly), especially loudly where we can cause most offence!”

      Then secondly as I was just about to tune out the State Announcer said something about Boris Johnston being made foreign secretary?? So the universe is having a laugh, the gods mock us mortals! Most likely the “first contact” aliens on hearing the news have headed back to planet X after labelling the Earth as in the very early stages of evolution, and best left well alone for at least a few millennium.

      The question asked by future generations will be ” what did you do during the early century insanity crisis?” ” Me?”, “I was a proud member of the Scottish National Party, so quite immune from all that nonsense!”

      In the time taken to write this, has the corrupted putrid corpse of Thatcher been necromance’d back into Downing street yet”

    26. Luigi says:

      A blow to Nicola Sturgeon?

      More like yet another slap in the face for Scotland.

    27. Luigi says:

      Bill Hume says:

      14 July, 2016 at 12:31 pm

      Interesting point. We can have as many referenda as the people want. I suppose the current impetus is damage limitation following BREXIT – protect the people immediately affected by this awful result and plan for the next IndyRef.

    28. Valerie says:

      @Bill Hume

      Sorry, can’t agree. If we lose this next indyref, it will be off the table for many years.

      The circus we have now, will never be better to justify our independence, everything points to independence being the only sane, prosperous way for Scotland.

      If we can’t swing this now, we never will. Or, it will be down to the next generation getting organised.

      SNP will leak support with another failed referendum. The middle aged like me will give up, because today’s case is overwhelming, and I will give up if we fail.

      England will resume asset stripping, and folk lose hope.

      In my view, when SNP come out the trap, they have to throw the kitchen sink at the Union, because the circs will never be better.

    29. Donald MacKenzie says:

      Oh damn. That’s a pity. There was me thinking that this ‘fresh broom’ would say it’s okay for us to find the right solution for Scotland and go ahead and implement it.

      But, I know I must bow before my betters and realise that these clever people in Westminster are so much better than our pretendy politicians, so I’ll crawl back into my box and not try to upset the status quo.

      Is that okay, Mr Hammond?

    30. Duncan Fraser says:

      Let’s do it. I’ll wager a lot of people who didn’t get their boots on the ground last time will be more active campaigners now.

    31. Shamur says:

      Can we get the “yes” crew back together? How about the biggest March yet……

    32. Shamur says:

      I’m ready. We have people coming out saying they back Scotland now who didn’t speak up before. Can we get the “yes” crew back together? How about the biggest March yet……

    33. gus1940 says:

      In spite of his many recent woeful articles there is an excellent piece by Kenneth Roy in today’s Scottish Review.

    34. galamcennalath says:

      Gordon Hay says:

      “It is surely more of a blow to Labour and others who have been pretending that some sort of half-way-house solution is feasible.”

      Looks like ‘make your mind up time’ is getting closer for the middle way people. Which is good news!

      Indy where we make our own future … versus … xenophobic right wing English nationalist dominated Brexit UK.

      Let’s hope it’s a no brainer for most Scots.

    35. galamcennalath says:

      Valerie says

      “If we can’t swing this now, we never will.”

      Soooooo true

    36. clash city rocker says:

      Valerie says:Sorry, can’t agree. If we lose this next indyref, it will be off the table for many years.

      Too right Valerie, couldn’t agree more.

    37. Dunks says:

      YES sticker is back on the car and the flagpole is ordered.

      C’moan Nicola, fire the starting pistol!

    38. Effijy says:

      Hammond cannot envisage. Full Stop.

      His words translated are you Dumb F****ers up North were stupid enough to believe the unbelievable garbage we spouted to you at Indy Ref 1, so now you will just do as England tells you and keep your mouths shut.

      The Hate and Upheaval the man created with the Doctors in England will look like a love-in when he tries to stamp his heel down on Scotland.

      He looks like a Weasel and he acts like one!

    39. Macart says:

      This trolling and baiting from HMG is going to continue for the foreseeable future. They’ll be pretty desperate to provoke an indyref before triggering Article 50.

      Keep the heid and keep the pressure on HMG is order of the day IMO. Soon as HMG pulls the trigger, its probably going to be this:

      http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=E06cNv55jTs

      Swiftly followed by this:

      http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9XNWA_yZvWo

      🙂

    40. DerekM says:

      Newsflash :- Blow for Hammond as nobody on Scotland gives a fuck what he says.

    41. Nana says:

      @gus1940

      I posted the article on the previous thread. First time I have ever linked to one of his.

    42. T.roz says:

      The UK is now at the mercy of the public school educated group. The media seems to be nothing but plumby voices. I can hardly understand a word Fraser Nelson says because of his posh manufactured voice.

    43. Jack Murphy says:

      BBC Northern Territory running the same Scotsman slant:-

      “Mr Hammond denied his stance meant the vote to Remain within the EU by the majority of people in Scotland was irrelevant.

      He said: “It means that however we voted, we are part of the United Kingdom and we have democratic decisions made across the United Kingdom and we will now implement the decision that the people of the United Kingdom collectively have made to leave the European Union.” ”

      That puts all of Ruth Davidson’s last two days of waffle in the bin!

      We are IN the EU and we’re going to STAY IN THE EU irrespective of Davidson/Hammond and the Red Tories under Dugdale.

    44. Robert Peffers says:

      @Karmanaut says: 14 July, 2016 at 12:20 pm:

      “It seems like such an odd stance to take, particularly when you add May’s “the union is everything” speech from the other day …

      Did you actually listen to her words in that speech, ‘from the other day’, Karmanaut?

      It sounded just like a Cameron speech only being rendered in a higher pitched and female tone. May claimed to be Prime minister of Britain when her post is Prime minister of only the United Kingdom part of Britain.

      She spoke of the United Kingdom being ,”A”, country when even primary school children know that the united Kingdom is a union of only two kingdoms that contain four countries.

      Then she got confused about what constitutes, “Great Britain”, and used the term to mean the entire United Kingdom. It is the same old lies by the same old Westminster liars who seem so badly educated they have no idea of the geography of the British Isles, no grasp of the English language and totally ignorant of the history or the laws of the two independent legal systems of the only two member kingdoms in the union.

      A bit like, “The PM is dead – long live the PM”. No matter what is elected from the Establishment of Westminster they just carry on as if nothing has changed.

      If I were a member of any of the Crown dependencies I’d be a bit worried that Westminster was about to take them over and the same goes for the republic too. If these idiots

    45. orri says:

      Off the wall prediction.

      As a member of the Privy Council Ruth Davidson might be seen as more qualified to be Secretary of State for Scotland than she would have been as simply leader of the conservative MSPs.

    46. Robert Peffers says:

      @Karmanaut says: 14 July, 2016 at 12:20 pm:

      “It seems like such an odd stance to take, particularly when you add May’s “the union is everything” speech from the other day …

      Did you actually listen to her words in that speech, ‘from the other day’, Karmanaut?

      It sounded just like a Cameron speech only being rendered in a higher pitched and female tone. May claimed to be Prime minister of Britain when her post is Prime minister of only the United Kingdom part of Britain.

      She spoke of the United Kingdom being ,”A”, country when even primary school children know that the united Kingdom is a union of only two kingdoms that contain four countries.

      Then she got confused about what constitutes, “Great Britain”, and used the term to mean the entire United Kingdom. It is the same old lies by the same old Westminster liars who seem so badly educated they have no idea of the geography of the British Isles, no grasp of the English language and totally ignorant of the history or the laws of the two independent legal systems of the only two member kingdoms in the union.

      A bit like, “The PM is dead – long live the PM”. No matter what is elected from the Establishment of Westminster they just carry on as if nothing has changed.

      If I were a member of any of the Crown dependencies I’d be a bit worried that Westminster was about to take them over and the same goes for the republic too. If these idiots are of the opinion they really are running all of Britain and are not aware there are eight countries in the British Isles and they think it is all one bigger country.

    47. mogabee says:

      Sam AKA MaCart

      I’d like to put myself forward as Marina. Despite having a sore leg just now I know I can make the role my own…

      🙂 🙂 🙂

    48. Is this the Hammond that warned North Korea that having nuclear weapons was not a protection, it made them a target?

    49. jimnarlene says:

      What DerekM said.

    50. Karmanaut says:

      @Robert Peffers

      Yes, I’m not disagreeing with you. My point is that this apparent hardening of their position to “Suck it up, Scotland, you’ll do what we say” is, in my view, the position that is most likely to lead to independence, which is why I find it odd that they seem set on that approach.

    51. Meg merrilees says:

      The devil is in the detail –

      Hammond says: ‘there are no plans to change the Barnett formula’ – translated… there will be no increase to the amount given to Scotland to help offset the money lost by Brexit so you’ll be too poor to do anything about it and will have to stay with us.

      Beeb says: ‘Nothing is set in stone yet and (they) expect the UK government will listen to advice from Scotland, “particularly from the Scottish Conservative Party” ‘.

      Nicola Wallace Sturgeon says: “Remain means Remain”… I know who I believe!

    52. Macart says:

      @mogabee

      😀

      ‘Anything’ can happen in the next half hour.

    53. Nana says:

      Hunt is still in place, Crabb has resigned and now I’m waiting to hear what juicy make believe post Ruth Davidson has landed.

    54. Dcanmore says:

      They can still refuse us a referendum and they can still strip Holyrood of powers. In other words they can trap Scotland within the union forever if they wish to do so.

      Scotland can be left out in the political cold for years, it all depends on how much they care for the union and how much Bexit will cost the UK as a whole. In their view the needs of London outweigh the needs of everyone else.

      We’ll find out soon enough when article 50 is enacted and whether Scotland is simply ignored or not.

    55. yesindyref2 says:

      With my interest in defence matters, I did study Hammond a bit during Indy Ref 1. I thought he was quite straight and competent – under his stewardship as defence secretary, the defence budget was brought under control, and a rational program for defence buying for ships, aircraft and army equipment came into being. Even independent defence forums were relatively happy – though of course everyone would want more. And while there was a load of bluster about Trident taking decades to move out of Scotland, Hammond quietly acknowledged 10 years would be fine, tight but doable.

      The UK will be negotiating with the EU, and if it has to try to make a separate case for Scotland to stay in the EU, it will have to give something away to get this as a concession from the EU, even if possible. It would weaken the UK’s hand – for the sake of one small part of it. It would also complicate those negotiations, and probably drag them out. In reality the UK needs to continue with some sort of provisional trade agreement after the 2 years after Article 50.

      Secondly the UK needs stabiltiy, Scotland having Indy Ref 2 is an extra instabiity on top of Brexit. Specially when IR2 might happen, or might not. For the UK, it would be better to have a definite answer – and a definite date. ASAP.

      From this point of view, if I was the Brexit negotiation minister, I would want to say a definite year or nay to Scotland, AND want a definite status for Scotland so I can get on with my job and agree terms of leaving the EU with the EU.

      So the way I see it, as others have said, IR2 should soon be categorically the only way forward for Scotland to Remain in the EU.

      Oh, and if I was May, Hammond, or Boris Johnson, I would not fight to keep Scotland in the UK. I really wouldn’t give a damn. It’s time to move on.

    56. Les Wilson says:

      I believe as others do THIS, is our chance, we never may see another like it. If we fail, we certainly do deserve it.
      Westminster is naked at the moment not knowing what to do, except to stop Scotland from leaving and their cash cow being lost.

      Their prestige (iffy I know ) as they see it, will be badly damaged in world terms, that is hugely important to them.
      They see Scotland as a possession they cannot lose, we are theirs and they want us shackled.

      They are parasites as far as our country is concerned, we are there to be abused. Something they do exceedingly well.

      They have never been so exposed, they will unlikely ever have so much on their plate at one time. That weakens them, and must embolden us.

      The media will be their main chance to stop us, probably always was, but we have heard it all before so it will annoy the hell out of us, but we have learned to dismiss them.
      Of course we also have many who will work against us, but now we to, are many.

      So, it is how we rise to the challenges that will make the difference, we need better organisation and more good people within us. We need the strength of our convictions to carry us to great heights we need to make doubters feel the same.

      If we are really determined, if we persuade enough, we will win this time. We need to believe in ourselves and give the media and such as BT our short drift, then we will see Scotland rise to great heights and show the world our worth.

      It has to be ASAP!

    57. Grouse Beater says:

      Slack mouth Hammond reminds me of an Indiana Jones sequence in which a fierce bandit bars his path lashing a whip this way and that, and brandishing a sword.

      Tired of all the confrontations, Indiana refuses to the fight the man, and instead pulls out his pistol and shoots the bandit dead.

      Hammond is merely one idiotic Tory against the tide of history.

      PS:
      Harrison Ford was suffering from stomach cramps. The script has him fight the bandit. Desperate to reach a toilet Ford used his gun instead. The sequence made the cut.

    58. Richardinho says:

      Well no one can say that Nicola Sturgeon didn’t try her best to keep Scotland within the EU whilst still in the UK.

      That leaves us with only one alternative.

    59. GJL1958 says:

      It’s like driving down the road nonchalant when all the Tory rabbits get blinded by the lights. I’ve seen it they scatter and run everywhere not concerned for their fellow rabbits. Some get run over(roadkill) and the others make it so they can then go and F**k their neighbours!!

      Well, with this new cabinet they are still in the headlights and none yet in full control. It is mess, anarchy, the script is not yet being followed.

      Here’s how it will go? ~indyref2 in one month if not sooner.

    60. Dcanmore at 1.52

      No,they can’t. They cannot stop us having a referendum and if they try to do so they will guarantee our victory. They know that.

      This bluffing pantomime is for our nervous easily led.

    61. Skip_NC says:

      Greetings from Raleigh, North Carolina. Is it just me or does anyone else think Brexit won’t actually happen? I sense an excuse being manufactured to have another EU referendum, perhaps after some “negotiations,” on a revised deal. Four million digital signatures on a hijacked petition makes for a pretty good soundbite.

      Or will Boris make these islands look completely foolish, such that the EU bouncers will escort us out?

    62. Breastplate says:

      I agree with Bill Hume,
      we are quite entitled to have as many referendums as we want, after all, that’s democracy and the whole point of the independence movement.
      What we should not be looking for is approval from another country that does not have our best interests even remotely In mind.
      Indyref2 should do the job nicely but even if it doesn’t, indyref3 should be loaded and so on.
      If at first you don’t succeed, try, try again.
      This will send the message of inevitability to Westminster and only then will they realise resistance is futile, to borrow a phrase from a well known to series

    63. Thepnr says:

      “Philip Hammond… said the vote to leave the European Union was a “democratic decision” made by the United Kingdom as a whole, which would now be implemented.”

      So what of the “democratic decision” clearly made by the people of Scotland to remain in the EU by 62% to 38%?

      Westminster, our so called UK parliament ensured that Scottish elected members can no longer be allowed to vote on matters affecting only English people. Why then should English only votes dictate whether the Scottish people remain citizens of the EU or not when they already are? They clearly desire to remain so.

      You are confusing democracy with dictatorship Mr Hammond. Scotland voted to stay in and we WILL stay in. Your crass words only serve to highlight the democratic deficit that the electorate in Scotland suffer from when it comes to Westminster governance.

      You will rue those words one day. The Scots will ensure you do.

    64. Jack Murphy says:

      The Guardian.Labour’s Kezia Dugdale 11th July:-
      “Scottish Labour leader Kezia Dugdale: ‘I don’t want to choose between two unions’ ”

      It’s make your mind up time Kezia.

    65. To doubly paraphrase – ‘Scotsmen and women all unite – we have nothing to lose but our chains and nothing to fear but fear itself!’

    66. Hamish100 says:

      The ruk mob led by privy Davidson will work against Scotland. We come way down the pecking order of their importance.

      We have a toady S.o.S for Scotland but at least he helps his son write his speeches when telling us we aren’t good enough.

      If the past 3 weeks has re-taught us and maybe even a few previous NO campaigners if we don’t put Scotland first no one else will. The tories and labour put their elites ahead of us all then their Westminster bubble.

      No more apologists please from the British state.

    67. K1 says:

      Aye Valerie…agreed, if we don’t succeed this time, of all times..like you I’m done with it all.

      (That commenting too fast message has appeared 3 times whilst trying tae post this comment, so apologies in advance if there are multiple copies of same comment. As I don’t know if the comment still posts irrespective of the ‘warning’)

    68. stonefree says:

      @ gus1940 12:58 pm
      He seem to changed attitude in the past couple of weeks,for the better, in my opinion. If that a result of the current behaviour by what are unionists,then they maybe a lot more scunnered by the whole thing

    69. yesindyref2 says:

      You’ve got to look at this from the UK point of view, not Scotland’s. We know Scotland has done badly at times with the likes of EU negotations where our interests have been sacrificed for UK priorities. Well, in a Union, it’t the UK is important as a whole, not any particular part of it. If one part suffers, then hey, that’s what Barnett is for. Sadly for England it didn’t have a Barnett for its regions, and curiously, Osborne much as I despised him, had the right idea with his northern powerhouses. It should have been done many years ago by Blair and Brown.

      Anyway, we do have Brexit, and personally I think the UK as a whole is better out of the EU, charting its own waters, and sailing out into the wide world which is where the new markets are – and have been for some time. Scotland being relatively small is better under an umbrella, and with our interests that’s the EU, not the UK, though we do do a lot of trade with the US, China and others.

      An article by David Davis on Conservative Home, pointed out to me by Hazel Smith in the Herald I half-read says it all. Chile negotiated a trade agreement with India I think in 1 year flat, whereas the EU floundered over 7 years. The EU has to put it to 28 memebr states, a single state can zoom through the proceedings with only itself to consult.

      But this means the UK has to proceed with Brexit flat out, try to do it fully in 2 years, keeping trade with the EU as much as possible, but going full steam ahead on world trade. It might actuallly just sacrifice the EU and go for WTO terms. In its place I would certainly consider that option.

      And there’s no room for passengers or dissenters. If Scotland wants to moan and whinge and cause troubles, then here’s the plank, walk the plank and get off my ship.

      Phew, now I can stop being Theresa May, in empathy at least.

    70. Ther Rough Bounds says:

      Perhaps we should all start preparing for the next Indy. propaganda war. It’s going to be a right stinker: worse than the last one.

      We must ask ourselves what would we do if we were in the position of the Tories. Suppose Scotland goes ahead with another referendum even though the Brits have ruled it unconstitutional/illegal. Suppose the Scots were to win. What would you do if you were an ultra UK supporter?

      The SNP might withdraw to Edinburgh. Would you send in the troops? Disband the Scottish Parliament? Use anti-terrorist legislation? Create a state of National Emergency? These are legitimate questions we should be considering and the SNP should be preparing for the worst.

      When I was born in 1945 the Irish rising in 1916 was less than 30 years previously. Could it happen here? God help save us from the ultra-unionists. Be prepared for the worst propaganda war since the Act of Union.

    71. Ian McLean says:

      If Westminster refused a referendum, that would presumably put us back in the pre-devolution position.
      Then it was deemed, and apparently confirmed by Thatcher, that independence would be achieved by returning a majority of Scottish MPs who were so minded.
      If all SNP MPs resigned and stood in by elections on effectively a UDI ticket, just 30 of them being re-elected would achieve that position.

    72. Nana says:

      Grayling transport sec. All roads to England closed for the foreseeable future then, probably be privatised.

      Alex Salmond on lateline
      https://twitter.com/Lateline/status/753557344017981440?lang=en-gb

      Schulz on May’s cabinet

      https://au.news.yahoo.com/world/a/32059130/eus-schulz-slams-new-uk-cabinet/?cmp=st#page1

    73. heedtracker says:

      Nice display of 3 imperial master baiters in UKOK action. Ligger’s just SO unbiased these days, with 646 licks.

      Scott Arthur Retweeted

      Andrew Neil ?@afneil 16h16 hours ago
      Andrew Neil Retweeted John Prescott
      No she doesn’t. That’s Liam Fox’s job. Try to keep up, John!Andrew Neil added,

      John Prescott @johnprescott
      Two weeks ago, Theresa May said Boris was a lousy negotiator.
      Now she makes him responsible for negotiating UK overseas trade deals?
      349 retweets 646 likes

    74. yesindyref2 says:

      Oh, by the way, the idea of the UK doing its own trade deals is to have NO tarrifs. That’s 0% tarrifs. Which completely puts the bollocks up Project Fear 3, that our trade with the rUK will suffer. It won’t. It will be business as usual.

    75. Vambomarbeleye says:

      Last time we played by the rules. We were unapproachably nice. It didn’t work and we lost. This time the gloves must be off. If you have to push your granny down the stairs to stop her voting no then so be it.
      The postal vote needs to be looked at as well
      On the media every lie by the no side has to be aggressively challenged. Call them a liar to their face.
      The basic message has to be got over to the man or woman in the street. What independence will do for their daily life’s.
      There is no point in two politicians on the tv trying to score points off each other as if they are in a parliamentary debating chamber. Go for the jugular every time.
      Independence ya bass.

    76. heedtracker says:

      SLabour aren’t saying much red tory wise either. Bit of haiku from oor Dunc though. Having done so much to end SLab’s right to rein over us, its not too bad really. Better than here I sit brokenhearted…

      Duncan Hothersall ?@dhothersall 2h2 hours ago
      Cracking day in Edinburgh, by the way. A lovely walk in the sun to pick up lunch before coming back to the crushing reality of life.

    77. heedtracker says:

      Dr NO reduced to mocking a possible slip of the tongue. Its the big stuff what brings out the deep thinkers.

      Scott Arthur ?@DrScottThinks 6h
      Nicola Surgeon on Theresa May: Brexit means breakfast.

    78. Grouse Beater says:

      You cannot argue with a colonial.

      They are certain their position, their rule is a God-given right, and you are an inferior person.

      Time to tell England to get on with living its closeted existence and Scotland seize its rightful liberty.

    79. Clapper57 says:

      Looks like Andrea Leadsom got her reward, as was agreed IMO, for standing down in leadership campaign.

    80. heedtracker says:

      BetterTogether Slovenia branch manager going completely mental as usual, rancid The Graun btl. Whatever you say about Prof Tomkinski, he’s certainly got a gift for diatribe.

      French foreign minister: Boris Johnson is a liar with his back against the wall

      14 Jul 2016 12:35
      16 Recommend In response to Blackeye

      With the unelected PM Theresa May appointing Boris EU-is-like-Hitler Johnson as the foreign minister, the Brave New Independent UK has launched an ultimate insult on 440 million people of the EU-27.

      No chance of any amicable negotiations or any concessions from the EU-27 to the UK now.

      The Britons better check the WTO trading rules. (Hint: They do not include EU passporting for the UK financial services. And anyway the UK will have to negotiate with the 160 WTO member states to sort out its WTO status in the first place.)

      The most diplomatic Boris EU-is-like-Hitler Johnson will travel to his first meeting of the EU foreign ministers on Monday. Popcorn ready.

      Here is the agenda of the EU meeting.

      German politicians have criticised the former London mayor Boris Johnson for claiming the EU has the same goal as Hitler in trying to create a political superstate.

      “Anyone who allows himself to stoop to such polemics shows that they are running out of proper arguments”, said Jürgen Hardt, the foreign affairs spokesman for Angela Merkel’s Christian Democrats. (The Guardian)

      “When I hear the EU being compared to the plans and projects of Adolf Hitler I cannot remain silent,” said [the president of the European Council] Tusk in a Copenhagen press conference with Danish Prime Minister Lars Løkke Rasmussen.

      “Such absurd arguments should be completely ignored if they hadn’t been formulated by one of the most influential politicians of the ruling party,” he said.

      “Boris Johnson crossed the boundaries of a rational discourse, demonstrating political amnesia,” said Tusk, who added there was, “no excuse for this dangerous blackout”. (The EUobserver)

    81. Hamish100 says:

      yesindy ref 2 — we must see it from the uk view? What UK?

      Sorry you must mean the rUK view. We know rUK’s view. Too wee etcetera… In a phrase. “Dae us yir telt”.

      They need to hear our view and if that is from Ireland Brussels so be it. Attack is our defence- with no nuclear weapons in sight.

    82. Nana says:

      Leadsome environment sec, geez I give up

    83. heedtracker says:

      “Independence ya bass”

      You need to cool it Vambomarbeleye.

      Lets dance

      http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7PCkvCPvDXk

      A dancer in this really brings Bliar MacDoogal to mind, in shorts.

    84. shiregirl says:

      Someone explain again what Oliver Letwins’s remit was as Chancellor of the Duchy of Lancaster. Is he to be replaced or have they realised that it was a non-job?

      Was that a makey-uppy`role to keep him happy/quiet?

      You couldn’t make it up, could you?!

      Indy, here we come!!!

    85. Dan Huil says:

      Britnats continue to do the most damage to their beloved united kingdom, so-called.

    86. Jimbo says:

      “The UK’s new Chancellor has said Scotland should not have a different relationship with Europe than the rest of the UK.”

      The Scotsman reports a “blow” to Nicola Sturgeon this morning:

      The Unionist media just love to make it look like a slap down for the SNP government and Nicola Sturgeon especially, when it is in fact a “blow” for the majority of Scotland’s people who voted to remain in the EU.

      Yet again the hopes and aspirations of Scotland’s people are trampled on by the Unionists in Westminster – But that’s not the way the dishonest mainstream media in Scotland report things.

    87. Legerwood says:

      Nana

      Ms Davidson, Rt Hon, will be made a life peer and become Sec of State for Scotland

    88. Auld Snody says:

      The UK establishment displays all the signs of Narcissism.
      “Narcissistic personality disorder (NPD) is a personality disorder, characterized by exaggerated feelings of self-importance, an excessive need for admiration, and a lack of empathy for others.[1] ” Wikipedia LOL

    89. Andrew Haddow says:

      @Legerwood

      Why bother when Baroness Mone’s already in there.

    90. Socrates MacSporran says:

      shiregirl

      The Queen is Duke of Lancaster, so Chancellor of the Duchy of Lancaster is one of those non-jobs which can be used as the Prime Minister sees fit.

      Letwin got it to get him into the Cabinet, with responsibilities for the Cabinet Office. He was one of Cameron’s best buddies and supporters, so DC wanted him in there.

      The new Chancellor of the Duchy of Lancaster is the Chairman of the Conservative and Unionist Party, giving him the job gets the party chairman into Cabinet, with a nice little earner in salary and strengthens the Tory Party grip on power.

      The fact that “Fluffy” Mundell has not yet been summoned to the presence means to me, either he will be kept-on, or, that Scotland means so-little to the new PM, it’s not worth bothering about.

      Maybe she is hoping to so piss us off, we will go, without too-much hassle from London, then the Tories will rule England for ever.

    91. Dr Jim says:

      Remember what Theresa May said to the police

      “If you don’t accept these changes they will be imposed upon you”

      Nuff said?

    92. Dan Huil says:

      We should just let the Westminster britnats get on with breaking up the so-called united kingdom.

    93. Thepnr says:

      Liam Fox who dropped out early in the Tory race to become our new PM is instead rewarded for his sacrifice by becoming the new Secretary of State for International Trade.

      I’m surprised he dropped out so early as I’m sure many Tory voters would have liked his pitch to become PM:

      “Liam Fox has vowed to cut welfare bills and push on with dramatic expansions to defence spending if he wins the race to be Tory leader and PM.”

      https://archive.is/TwRxf

      I’m only guessing but think his plans May be implemented by the new Tory cabinet anyway. A leopard can’t change its spots.

    94. yesindyref2 says:

      @Hamish100
      Basic rule of strategy – put yourself in the enemy’s shoes and think the way they think.

    95. call me dave says:

      Mundell hold from….well ??? Sec State Scotland

    96. Valerie says:

      Shiregirl @3.17

      Letwin was a kind of cabinet advisor to Cameron. He was allegedly supposed to be overseeing the civil service in readying for Brexit.

      He presents as a posh, low intellect type, just in out the road of the buses.

    97. gordoz says:

      Breaking :

      Just explained on Sky TV

      Reason for delay in Scottish Secretary – panic attack by Fluffy resulted in an unfortunate accident and required a quick dash out for a change of clothing.

      Still awaiting confirmation.

    98. yesindyref2 says:

      I have a feeling in my watter the now current UK Government doesn’t care about the EEA, doesn’t care about EFTA. It will negotiate its own bilateral deal with the EU, in a similar fashion to Canada and the US, not Switzerland. Or default to WTO rules. And my first view on this is that it would be correct to, if it’s ruthless enough. And I think May will prove to be ruthless, she’s starting off that way, plus she’s appointed David Davis whi I need to study a little. Long-term I also think it’s the right approach for the UK. Or should I say having now taken my UK hat off, the rUK.

    99. Greannach says:

      So much for for my predictive powers. I’d been expecting Baron Darling of Flippinghome to be made Secy of State. Maybe I should change my name to McTernan.

    100. Legerwood says:

      Andrew

      Forgot about the Mayfair gal.

    101. yesindyref2 says:

      @Heed “are we dancers or are we human?”

    102. Phil Robertson says:

      “First Minister Nicola Sturgeon, who has been consistently making a case for Scotland to retain its links with Europe after the majority of voters north of the border opted for Remain.””

      So, in the event of a second independence referendum, do areas that clearly support remaining in the UK get to do so irrespective of the overall result?

    103. Bob Mack says:

      @Phil Robertson,

      We are not an “area”.

    104. Macart says:

      Scotland is a country, not a region, an area, a county or a district. This is international and constitutional politics.

    105. Dan Huil says:

      @Phil Robertson 4:08pm

      “Jocks, know your place!” you mean.

    106. Valerie says:

      @yesindyref2

      I’m very sure May will be completely ruthless, and make Cameron look like an indecisive, soft hippy. The police absolutely detest her, but in the end are implementing some pretty tough handling of demos, protesters, with more on the way.

      I suppose if we try to think like rUK, they need to get as many trade deals in the bag as they can, before triggering A50. I say that, because that trigger will be another global financial shock, and they know that is Scotland’s cue as well.

      I’m just really worried about WHAT they are actually trading? Isn’t the south best known for services?

      Indications are triggering A50 at end of 2016, thus far.

      So far, May has dumped all Cameron supporters. Lots of warm words in her first speech, but I honestly think that’s all bullshit.

    107. shiregirl says:

      Cheers Socrates / Valerie

      It’s laughable. non-jobs for the boys.

      What will he do now, I wonder (not that I care…)

      🙂

    108. gordoz says:

      Just heard the new Tory chairman having to reiterate and explain the New Tory idea of “reaching out to more people”.

      Explanation “This involves a ten foot barge-pole and indeed in cases of ‘alms to the poor” then we will advise litter-lifters (to conform to H&S requirements)

      Quite enlightening really, didn’t see where they were going with this until now.

      And o Scotland “We wont be reaching out to Scotland, we will be controlling Scotland as usual”.

    109. galamcennalath says:

      @Phil Robertson

      Wit? Area? I see only Unions and countries?

      Oh. Like Area 51 where Hammond’s wee green guys hang out?

    110. Cherry says:

      https://mobile.twitter.com/b_judah/status/753585229739196418/photo/1

      Read the limerick of our new Foreign Secretary on Turkish President!

      Oh how we laugh!

    111. gordoz says:

      Careful the wean is back !

    112. heedtracker says:

      So, in the event of a second independence referendum, do areas that clearly support remaining in the UK get to do so irrespective of the overall result?

      They sure do Phil Robertson, if and when those that want to remain in these areas get themselves a political party, write a manifesto, stand for election, get elected and so on.

      Its called democracy for a reason Phil Robertson.

    113. yesindyref2 says:

      @Macart
      Courage Mon Brave, won’t be long before we really are a Country rather than a Region.

      @Valerie
      Yup. I don’t think the UK can actually sign up the deals before Brexit, but it can certainly have the ink dry on the drafts. And I think the reality is that Scotland will be a very unwelcome distraction to May and co, sooner rid, the better. I also suspect that, unlike Cameron, they don’t care about Northern Ireland. It’ll be Ireland’s problem. Trident? 10 year deal, then it’s gone from Faslane and Coulport, that’s easy.

      Well, today’s excitement over, I think it’s a huge step forward but I could be wrong, back to work. Cup of tea first!

      Oh, I just have to wonder if the SNP have had the strategists to work all this out as soon as the EU Ref was announced. They certainly should do, and all the moves have been correct so far I think. Won’t be long now.

    114. Thepnr says:

      @yesindyref2

      Care to elaborate as why “default to WTO rules” on trade rather than a free market as currently exists with the EU will be “the right approach for the UK” when the EU is our biggest trading partner?

      You of course know that the UK has one of the highest current account deficits on trade in the entire world at around 7% of GDP. Worst of all IMO is the deficit in manufactured goods which was £83Bn in 2014. Food, drink and tobacco also had a £20Bn deficit. These figures can only worsen if tariffs are added in line with WTO figures.

      Sure services help keep things more respectable looking when looking at the raw numbers. How do you stick a tariff on a bank transaction?

    115. galamcennalath says:

      Davis say Brexit Dec 2018. Roll back 24 months and that means article 50 in December this year at the earliest.

      The think the EU will expect it all to happen sooner than this!

    116. Iain More says:

      I am absolutely gutted. The gallons of crocodile tears that I have shed at the above news might match those shed by Bliar over Iraq.

      You really are a patronising git aren’t you Phil Robertson. Scotland is a Nation not an area or a region.

    117. heedtracker says:

      Breaking news/bollox

      Adam Tomkins MSP ?@ProfTomkins 4h
      A new industrial policy. A centrepiece for infrastructure and investment. These, as well as Brexit, look core to the new Govt’s priorities
      4 retweets 6 likes
      Reply Retweet 4
      Like 6

      Adam Tomkins MSP ?@ProfTomkins 4h
      The personal drama is gripping but ministries are more important than ministers. It’s the new departments that reveal the Govt’s radicalism

      I say! Govt’s radicalism eh. They just ripped up our EU citizenship, so that’s pretty radical but the rest of its same ol shite. Although there was an olde tory boy on Ligger’s Politics show at lunchtime saying that “we’re already in talks with China,” so rejoice. Planet toryboy’s in good hands, like nutcase Adam.

    118. heedtracker says:

      Deep stuff from tory unionists everywhere today.

      Kevin Hague ?@kevverage 5h5 hours ago Gifford, Scotland
      a vaguely serious point: the last few days are hardly a great advert for “politician” as a career choice

    119. Capella says:

      Scotland should not have a different relationship with Europe than the rest of the UK.
      Really?
      Maybe it is time to drop this fiction “the rest of the UK” or rUK. As Robert Peffers has pointed out, The United Kingdom is a Union between two kingdoms, Scotland and England. Therefore the “rest of the UK” is England. What Philip Hammond is saying is:

      Scotland should not have a different relationship with Europe than England.

      I agree. Scotland should have exactly the same membership and voting rights as England.

    120. Macart says:

      @Yesindyref2

      Just heading off the usual nonsense of folk who don’t know the difference between dissolving a treaty and secession. Y’know, the annexing of Auchenshuggle bollox.

      Doesn’t hurt to remind folk that basically, historically and internationally recognised ‘national’ borders are exactly as described on the tin. 🙂

    121. Proud Cybernat says:

      @ So, in the event of a second independence referendum, do areas that clearly support remaining in the UK get to do so irrespective of the overall result?

      They can certainly try. But, giving they are a county (as opposed to a country like Scotland who is party to a bi-partite Union with England which it can terminate should its people so decide), they are unlikely to get very far with WM.

      WM simply cannot block the democratic wishes of a separate country. They can most certainly do that with a county (of England, Wales or N.Ireland).

      Are you getting this yet? It’s why Scotland has already HAD its first IndyRef. And why we will soon have the final IndyRef and saying “Cheerio” to Queen Elizabeth the Last of Scots.

    122. galamcennalath says:

      A lot of people STILL have no idea what has just happened and what is likely to happen…

      “…in two years’ time, a third think it [the economy] will be better (32%)”

      “Half of Britons (52%) say they think that the UK will stay in the single market with some limits on freedom of movement.”

      http://www.comres.co.uk/polls/bbc-news-brexit-expectations-poll/

    123. yesindyref2 says:

      @galamcennalath
      If Davis says it, then that’s probably the plan. I can see the point in that, it’s letting the EU know that the UK is “in control”, that though the EU is important, it’s not the only fish in the sea, and it’s putting the EU in its place. Ho hum, but probably the right move from the UK, as it forces the EU to consider what value the UK is to it, and allow time for the individual 27 member states to get irate businesses in their own countries saying “get this done, our business does a lot of trade with the UK”. Brinkmanship and pre-negotiation – we – the UK – are in charge of our own affairs.

    124. Robert Peffers says:

      @Karmanaut says: 14 July, 2016 at 1:42 pm:

      Oh! I’m not saying you disagree with me, Karmanaut. I’m pointing out that the Westminster Establishment has always arrogantly and wrongly just assumed they are the masters of all of the British Isles and not just of the United Kingdom part of Britain. Not only that but they just assume the terms Britain, Great Britain, the British Isles, the United Kingdom and England are all terms that are equally common terms for England.

      Never ever forget what that absolute numptie, David Mundell said during the Scottish independence referendum – , “The Treaty of Union Extinguished the Kingdom of Scotland and renamed the Kingdom of England as the United Kingdom”.

      Think about that, Karmanaut. A Scottish elected MP is claiming his country was wiped out and no longer exists but the partner kingdom in the Treaty of Union, that is the Kingdom of England, remained and is now the United Kingdom. He is basically claiming that we are all English now.

      It is plainly what these people actually think. There is a Westminster created paper that makes that claim. They are claiming the Treaty of Union that is signed by only the two kingdoms actually did not unite the kingdoms of Scotland and England but instead it made England into the United Kingdom and did away with Scotland.

    125. dandy dons 1903 says:

      Phil Robertson likes to suggest the old brit game of divide and rule ie partition! Its all unionists like Robertson have left, desperate stuff indeed.

    126. gordoz says:

      Sorry British media cannae be very good at Maths when they’re trying to sell that as a gender balanced cabinet. 8/22 ? WTF?

    127. yesindyref2 says:

      @Thepnr
      I’ve done a lot of readin, well, skim-reading life is too short. The gist from around europa.eu is that the EU itself wants to move to zero tarrifs to make itslef more competitive – which it needs. It also needs to be faster reacting.

      The UK wants zero tariffs, an open world market, so in that way any membership of the EU or EEA is irrelevant. What’s left is a restricitive regulatory framework which makes it harder importing into the EU (I’ve actually benefitted from that), but a regulatory framework which makes it harder for businesses to trade at all (I’ve lost out from that – badly).

      But this is happening at fairly slow speed within the EU and might not happen, so there are risks attached. But by the time of Brexit – 2.5 years down the line, the EU might already be more open.

      Basically a freee open world trade market is what WTO is, so I don’t think it would in reality, worry the UK too much if that was what was left behing. Ruthless – there will be heavy losers in the UK,, but long-term probably what the world is heading for anyway.

      Scotland? We actually export stuff, so we’re in a different boat – and need to be.

    128. yesindyref2 says:

      @Tehpnr
      I forgot the imporatant part. The UK is hamstrung by the EU financial regulatory framework. It’s a question whether passporting is really worth being stuck under that framework which keeps banks safer, but stops them taking risks – and making money. 2008 all over again.

    129. schrodingers cat says:

      the manifesto for HE 2016 gave nicola the ability to call indyref2 IF she wanted and WHEN she wanted.

      the route she has taken since the EUref result, ie, try to negotiate, if this fails then indyref2, has given away her ability to decide WHEN, hammonds statement today forces the issue as it removes any possibility of nicola negotiating a separate deal for scotland. logically, the only thing left for nicola to do is launch indyref2 but it is hammond who has decided this, not nicola.
      it was a risky strategy nicola chose, the negotiations were always a delaying tactic, with no real prospect of succeeding, until the polls showed yes support hitting 60% then she would call indyref2.
      there was an inevitability that this is what would have happened and WM knew this, they have done the only thing they could, they are forcing indyref2 before nicola is ready.
      i dont think we have a choice now,
      indyref2…bring it on

    130. yesindyref2 says:

      @Macart
      Indeed. It definitely needs the Peffers style historical accuracy to tell the punters “In the last resort, we’re totally in control because we can just dissolve the whole thing”.

    131. Phil Robertson says:

      Bob Mack, Dan Hull, galamcennelath, heetracker

      The electorate for the EU referendum was the whole of the UK. The result was, narrowly, to leave the EU. If you choose to slice and dice that result on how different sub-divisions of the electorate voted, why should such a principle not apply to other referendums?

      Capella
      “Maybe it is time to drop this fiction “the rest of the UK” or rUK. As Robert Peffers has pointed out, The United Kingdom is a Union between two kingdoms, Scotland and England. Therefore the “rest of the UK” is England.”

      What happened to Wales (Acts of Union 1536 and 1542) and Northern Ireland (Act of Union 1801 and Anglo-Irish Treaty 1922)?

    132. defo says:

      Grant, at 12:27 pm
      “The Scotsman, as read by 0.45% of the Scottish population (and that’s being generous with the rounding up of the decimal point and airline freebies).”

      What % clock the headline though Grant ?

      It’s ALL about the headline.

    133. yesindyref2 says:

      @Phil Robertson
      You’re seeing this in a UK wide context when you ask us to consider London, any other part of England or Wales or NI that voted Remain. As a Unionist that might be your concern, though it shouldn’t be, you’re a unionist and think UK-wide. So you’re contradicting yourself, being inconsistent.

      However, as Independentists our concern is with Scotland. So our conern is Scotland-wide, a vote in Scotland is Scotland-wide. Which is entirely consistent with what appears to be your main approach, but for us it’s Scotland, for you it’s the UK. Go figure.

    134. Proud Cybernat says:

      @ Robertson

      “The electorate for the EU referendum was the whole of the UK. The result was, narrowly, to leave the EU.”

      And Scotland was told by the BritNatz in IndyRef#1 that their place in Europe would only be secure with a NO Vote. Are you now saying the BritNatz have betrayed those voters?

      Scotland wants to remain in the EU. Remain means remain. Repeat 100 times until you get used to the idea.

    135. yesindyref2 says:

      @Phil Robertson “What happened to Wales (Acts of Union 1536 and 1542) and Northern Ireland (Act of Union 1801 and Anglo-Irish Treaty 1922)?”

      Again, to be brutal, if Scotland dissolves the Union, whatever happened in the Union after that is not our concern. It would be for Wales and Northern Ireland to decide what they want to do, and take steps accordingly.

    136. schrodingers cat says:

      wgd knows what hammonds announcement means

      Paul Kavanagh ?@weegingerdug 5h5 hours ago
      Thanks to Phil “Alien Invasion” Hammond, we now know the only way Scotland can stay in the EU is with independence. No reverse Greenland.

    137. Capella says:

      Further to just calling the rUK England – which is what it actually is – shouldn’t we talk about dissolving the Treaty of Union with England rather than “Independence”? The question to put to the voters would be along the lines of:

      Scotland can only remain in the EU if the Treaty of Union is dissolved. Should the Treaty of Union be dissolved? YES/NO

    138. Macart says:

      @Yesindyref2

      Its also worth noting that during the independence referendum Scotland was assured that only by voting no could it guarantee remaining part of the EU. Scotland as a nation, that would be every single ward, voted to remain part of the EU bearing out both polling on the issue and the Scottish governments manifesto stance.

      Now it appears that a cornerstone assurance of BT/HMG’s commitment to the Scottish electorate has been manifestly broken (one among many). I’d say that’s a pretty fair reason to question the result of indyref 1. HMG did not and indeed could not fulfill the guarantees it made to Scotland’s electorate.

    139. Thepnr says:

      @yesindyref2

      The UK may want zero tariffs but what you want and what you might get are two entirely different things.

      The WTO is far removed from a “free open world trade market”. Here is a link to their most recent publication of Tariffs agreed between their member states.

      If you scroll through it you will find the tariffs that the EU currently impose on WTO members, it can vary depending on whether on not the individual state is a “Most Favoured Nation” state or not.

      One thing is clear though, Scotlands exports to the EU could suffer badly even if the YK has an MFN agreement with the UK. For example Animal products (scotch beef) has a duty payable on imports of 17.7% for Beverages & tobacco it’s worse at 20.7% and for Fish & fish products it’s 12%.

      https://www.wto.org/english/res_e/booksp_e/tariff_profiles15_e.pdf

      I doubt the Whisky industry or Scottish Salmon exporters are going to like that much. This is why the UK post Brexit are scrabbling around trying to reassure everyone that the “free market” will continue. Aren’t they in for a shock unless agreeing the free movement of people too.

      That’s just the effect on trade in goods, I doubt the “City” will take too kindly to losing a huge amount of profit due to losing the right to conduct most of the worlds trade in Euros and sees a number of banks rush for the exit.

      I suppose though we will just have to wait and see unless we get our Independence first.

    140. call me dave says:

      Fluffy breasts the tape in a one horse race 🙂

      I was getting worried that his love of Scotland, talent and undoubted political skills would go unnoticed and that Ruthie might, somehow, get foisted upon us. Phew! 🙁

    141. Socrates MacSporran says:

      Yet another interesting and informative piece from Robert Peffers, as regards the Treaty of Union.

      I recall a previous Peffers piece in which he mentioned, in 1707, with the Treaty of Union, the Parliament of England dissolved itself and surrendered its powers to the Parliament of the United Kingdom, whereas the old Scottish Parliament merely suspended operations – which enabled Winnie Ewing to re-convene it after the devolution bill.

      So, as the continuing signatory to the Treaty of Union, surely the Scottish Government could, on behalf of the Scottish Parliament, dissolve the 1707 Treaty, since it is no longer fit for purpose.

    142. Phil Robertson says:

      “You’re seeing this in a UK wide context”

      Not surprising when the electorate was the whole of the UK and the question began “Should the United Kingdom remain a member ..”

      “However, as Independentists our concern is with Scotland. So our conern is Scotland-wide, a vote in Scotland is Scotland-wide.”

      Fair enough but what if someone saw themselves as a Borderer and the Borders take a different view from the rest of Scotland.

      On which tablet of stone do “independentists” get special rights about the results of a referendum that don’t seem to apply to other groups?

      The reference to other parts of the UK was about something else.

    143. galamcennalath says:

      @Capella

      re question, I see where you are coming from, however I think it is crucially important that IndyRef2 is about more that just the EU. It has to be about a choice between two futures.

      In IndyRef1 they painted a rather respectable picture of what this better together malarky was going to be like. It has turned out to be nothing like that. The EU and Brexit may simply be the last straw. Though, give the Tories a short time and there may be other straws to add.

      Fiscal settlement, Barnett, Trident renewal, European Court of Human Rights, etc etc.. There is much scope for the Tories to convert more folks to Yes!

      We need to go into Indyref2 with an irrefutable contrast between the two futures.

      You may have a point about asking to dissolve the Union.

    144. Phil Robertson says:

      yesindyref2 says:
      14 July, 2016 at 5:25 pm
      “Again, to be brutal, if Scotland dissolves the Union, whatever happened in the Union after that is not our concern. It would be for Wales and Northern Ireland to decide what they want to do, and take steps accordingly.”

      I wasn’t talking about the future.

      I was simply pointing out that rUK does NOT equate to England. It includes Wales and Northern Ireland irrespective of the nonsensical mutterings of Capella and Robert Peffers.

    145. Valerie says:

      @Thepnr @ 5.42

      Exactly right. The Tories keep telling lies, and why would they stop now?

      This free trade bull is just that, unless UK takes free movement. It’s a package deal. What is the UK (the south) producing, that EU countries can’t do without?

      The Tories are on the global trading stage with – a whelk stall.

      The EU is the world’s largest market. Those countries are looking at what’s best fit with their economy, hence trade deals do take years, but at the end of that, we gain a great deal, access to work/contracts, free movement and trade.

      If we were dealing with an equal partner, why is Scotland, with its valuable exports, not being involved right now?

      The signs are very clear, we are nothing more than a cash cow.

    146. Thepnr says:

      @Phil Robertson

      Scotlands elected MPs are barred from voting on “English only matters” within the UK.

      Why then should English voters have the power to overrule Scottish voters voices? You want your cake and to eat it, can’t have both.

      Our voices will be heard, you’d better believe it.

    147. davidb says:

      @ Phil Robertson

      Has England not caused enough damage in the world with its policy of carving up traditional nations? You would think they were more enlightened nowadays in view of the death and destruction they have left in their wake over the years.

      Scotland is a nation. It incorporates all the counties which were there in 1603 and in 1707. It probably includes Berwick, and certainly includes the bit of seaboard annexed recently by England.

      Please take that silly tired notion of partitioning another nation and troll somewhere else.

      We are one Scotland.

    148. Andrew Haddow says:

      @Phil Robertson

      Those “nonsensical mutterings” (AKA facts) indicate that rUK does indeed equate to the KINGDOM of England, incorporating as it does the countries of England and Wales and the province of Northern Ireland.

    149. Liz Rannoch says:

      BREAKING – May coming up to Scotland tomorrow!

    150. Lenny Hartley says:

      Wtf Janice Akinson British Independent MEP on RT .
      Don’t think I’ve ever heard anybody who is more a Narcissistic.

      Talking about Boris , apparently he must have at some time attacked Obama, she said, doesn’t matter Obama is Toast there will be a new President in November. Ignorant or what, Mr Obama will be in power until Feb 2017. complete and utter English Arrogance , if Farage and her are an example of English MEP’s, no wonder the EU is glad to see the back of them.

    151. carjamtic says:

      PR @ 6:05

      Shite story,pal.

      Although passport control at most EU airports might listen for a wee while,then…..

      ‘Didye…..that’s a shame’ …..

      It’s a cruel world,but with the ‘wrong passport’ you’re gonnae jist hivtae,suck it up……..as they fart in your eyes.

      Good luck with that.

    152. Lenny Hartley says:

      Don’t feed the troll.

    153. galamcennalath says:

      Going right back to The Rev’s original point …

      “The Scotsman reports a “blow” to Nicola Sturgeon this morning”

      Although we Independinistas find it inconceivable, there is a view put forward (in rags like the Torygraph among other places) that Scotland and the SNP don’t want independence. It’s all just a ploy to get more than our fair share out of the system.

      The Hootsman’s spin is along the same lines. It supposes that the ultimate deal for Scotland is a special one within the UK, not Indy.

      Normally, I just ignore such trash as being intended for an English audience. I assume it’s just anti-Scottish propaganda in the same vane all all the other xenophobic English nationalist propaganda which flies around.

      However, why should the Hootsman follow this line? Surely everyone in Scotand knows the SNP (and others) are very serious about Indy?

    154. Capella says:

      @ galamcennalath
      Yes I agree that there are many issues involved in asserting our sovereignty and not just membership of the EU.
      I think that pointing out that the Treaty is only one between two nations which no longer serves a purpose, in fact is damaging, should just be dissolved. Like divorce, one party doesn’t need to assert “Independence” you just dissolve the contract.

    155. Macart says:

      @galamcennalath 6.04pm

      Right on the nail.

      Any upcoming indyref is NOT about a re-run of the EU referendum. It is about a catastrophic failure to deliver on the pledges and assurances made to the Scottish electorate during the 2014 referendum. The EU issue should be seen for what it is. A drastic physical change in both constitutional and economic circumstance, or basically the straw that broke the camel’s back.

      One more broken assurance too far.

    156. Grouse Beater says:

      Phil Robertson: “Should the United Kingdom remain a member ..”

      The United Kingdom did not call the referendum, England called it. And it did it in the mistaken belief Remain would win. Or are you trying to alter recorded history?

      Only weeks before Cameron was claiming he had all the concessions he wanted from the EC, and we should remain in Europe.

      Even Gibraltar refuses to stand by the result. How about telling Gibraltarians tough, live with it?

      I dare you.

    157. Grouse Beater says:

      Liz Rannoch: “May coming up to Scotland tomorrow!”

      Is she going to do the same as Osborne – give a statement in a locked room, the view behind of the Castle, and then waddle off swiftly to her waiting car, engine running, and on to the airport?

    158. Tam Jardine says:

      Phil Robertson

      It’s tearing Phil- you mibbe don’t want it to but you can hear it. You can feel it.

      When die hard British subjects are becoming merely Brit-ish, Brit-esque you know the games up.

      I’ve talked to guys in guid jobs- airline pilots, businessmen, business owners who are either yes or borderline yes when they were staunch no afore.

      Keep on keeping on with the fantasy mate- it’s in the post and you can bury your head in the sand. My part time job to make this glorious country an independent member state of the EU, the UN and break this disfunctional asymmetric union- it just got a whole lot more straightforward.

      Man- keep the faith if you will but demographics are on our side. Immigrants are on our side. Farmers are coming over to our side. Businesses are coming over to our side…. etc etc

    159. Gary45% says:

      What WILL happen if Scotland gets a special Euro deal whilst still attached to our great southern haemorrhoid.
      We will still have to export through the southern ports, and you can bet your last penny, we will get shafted even more than present.
      Imagine, Engerland votes out and Scotland stays in Europe and Engerland get the benefits from Scotland staying in the EU.

      We MUST get Independence or we are FCUKD.
      We have enough infrastructure to deliver across the world, we don’t need the south.
      Indy Ref 2 Yes Please.

    160. John Young says:

      From Reddit – Is this authentic?
      Boris Johnson and his view of the Scots
      u/mrlithic703d, 1h
      As Boris Johnson has now publicly entered the fray with regards the Referendum I thought it might be time to resurrect this poem about the Scots and Scotland that he had published during his time as editor on the Spectator. It was penned by the poet James Michie who Mr Johnson described as “one of the most distinguished poets…of the 20th century.”

      The Scotch – what a verminous race!

      Canny, pushy, chippy, they’re all over the place.

      Battening off us with false bonhomie;

      Polluting our stock, undermining our economy.

      Down with sandy hair and knobbly knees!

      Suppress the tartan dwarves and the Wee Frees!

      Ban the kilt, the skean-dhu and the sporran

      As provocatively, offensively foreign!

      It’s time Hadrian’s Wall was refortified

      To pen them in a ghetto on the other side.

      I would go further. The nation

      Deserves not merely isolation

      But comprehensive extermination.

      We must not flinch from a solution.

      (I await legal prosecution.)

    161. Valerie says:

      Just because some are referring to dissolution of the Union.

      I posted this a few threads ago, but stands reposting.

      Senior lecturer in law opinion on the matter, fairly easy to read.

      https://aberdeenunilaw.wordpress.com/

    162. yesindyref2 says:

      @Phil Robertson: “On which tablet of stone do “independentists” get special rights about the results of a referendum that don’t seem to apply to other groups?

      You miss the point Phil. It’s not me trying to make an argument from inconsistent points of view, it’s you are. If you’re arguing as a Unionist, then a cross-Union arguer you are. You can’t have your cake and eat it!

      As for “the future”, no. I’m talking about the Treaty of Union 1707 between Scotland and England. At that stage Wales was a principality of the English Crown, and Ireland was ruled by the English monarch. Acts of union with Ireland 1801 or whatever come after that, so when the Treaty of Union of 1707 is set aside, Scotland and England revert to status, and all future Treaties are also set aside.

      It’s then up to England, Wales and Ireland to sort out whatever they want to do, Scotland was our own Parliament with no encumberances, and so it returns to that status. Brutally speaking, that’s “Don’t give us your problems!”.

    163. Lewis says:

      @Lenny Hartley: Our new diplomatic foreign secretary has also referred to Hillary Clinton as being reminiscent of “a sadistic nurse in a mental hospital”, so even though Obama’s leaving his most likely successor also has reason to loathe the poofy haired arsehole.

    164. yesindyref2 says:

      @Liz Rannoch
      I’m going to put a twist on this, and why not!

      If May & Co were serious about keeping Scotland in the Union, making some arrangements to honour our 62% EU vote, then it wouldn’t be a priority. So Sturgeon could take her place in the queue, next week, the week after.

      But if May wants to get rid of the distraction that is Scotland then she has to be seen to be making every attempt to keep the Unioni together, and then faced with Sturgeon’s intranginsence and no progress on Scotland accepting being dragged out of the EU screaming and against her will, May can go back to her Cabinet, Parliament and country, shrug her shoulders and say “I did my best, what happens now is out of my control”.

      In other words, doing with Scotland what Sturgeon did with trying to stay in the UK and EU at the same time.

      But who knows – yet?

    165. Ruby says:

      Who care what Hammond says?
      Who cares what’s written in The Scotsman?

      I thought this whole issue of Scotland remaining in the EU was resolved last week.

      A Scotland with the UK cannot remain in the EU however an iScotland can.

      What Hammond is saying is good news for the YES campaign bad news for Kezia who said

      Only Labour wants to keep Scotland in both the EU and UK, says Kezia Dugdale’ Herald.

    166. call me dave says:

      Never send to know for whom the bells trolls; it trolls for thee.

      PS:
      Good luck all Scots footie teams tonight. Streams are available.
      🙂

    167. Brian Doonthetoon says:

      Here’s another petition initiative we have to support – and it’s climbing faster than the England petition for independence!

      https://petition.parliament.uk/petitions/123800

      “The people of scotland demand a second independence referendum

      With continued lies and deceit from westminster, we the people of scotland demand a second independence referendum without objection from westminster”

    168. Ruby says:

      Chic McGregor says:
      14 July, 2016 at 9:37 am

      @Ruby

      As has been made clear from EU sources.

      The UK can leave the ECHR, however, subsequent significant departure from human rights provision as enshrined in the ECHR and mirrored in EU treaties and the ECJ would result in punitive measures up to exclusion from voting rights, whilst still having to pay membership fees.

      Continued infringement of human rights would inevitably lead to a crisis summit where, for the first time ever, the possibility of expulsion would be on the table.

      So, effectively, leaving the ECHR would sooner or later lead directly to BREXIT, referendum or no referendum.

      Indeed there was a Tory cabal of Eurosceptics, including May and Grayling, who seemed intent in using that as a backdoor exit from the EU before Cameron announced the referendum.

      Incidentally, while all existing EU members are in the ECHR, it had not been an aquis requirement, but it is now for new members.

      Ruby replies

      That is very interesting.

      Now that we are no longer in the EU is there anything stopping Teresa May from withdrawing from the ECHR?

      Interesting article in The National entitled

      ‘The human right Westminster refused to sign up to: why EU nationals could have had the right to stay in the UK’

      https://archive.is/1qRxl

    169. Dan Huil says:

      May is coming north tomorrow to teach us Scots a lesson. It’s 1314 all over again.

    170. Liz g says:

      Phil Robertson
      Tablet’s of stone are mair aboot religious law,think yer getting a wee bit mixed up there.
      Try thinking of it like this.
      Most of us are talking about the area that fall’s under Scot’s Law.
      That’s the land whose elected representatives are for now abiding by the terms of a Treaty…..and ONLY a Treaty.
      This land and it’s law’s are much older than that Treaty.
      It is the area’s that operates under Scot’s Law that has voted to remain in the EU,again another Treaty.
      So the question is ….is the Treaty agreement made with England still worth keeping.

      The So Called (to coin a phrase) UK,cant really vote as ONE country because it is NOT and never has been one country.
      It’s two different nation’s that, under an old Treaty arrangement, have their parliamentary representatives act in unison.

      This has “kind of” worked out for most of the lifetime of the arrangements because the nation’s involved seemed to be moving in the same direction on the global stage.
      This is now demonstrably not the case,and so begs the question,should the Treaty continue?

      So can you now understand why you’re enquiry about the borders region within the nation of what is a country/Kingdom (If your reading Robert… I did pay attention) is a false premise?

      You seem to be going down the route of either examining the shortfalls of democracy it’s self,or advocating that Treaty’s are by virtue of longevity indissoluble.

      Which as I am sure you will agree are completely different subject’s to the issue at hand,and potentially only an academic exercise at best and a diversion at worst.

    171. Sandy says:

      Scotland to be able to reduce VAT by half on ice cream.
      “This is FANTASTIC news for Scotland”, says Fluffy ‘THE CLOWN’ Mundell, apparent Secretary of State for Scotland. “Corner cafes are going to explode. We’ll be a world leader. Watch other countries follow suit, Iceland, Greenland, Anctartica. This is what the Union means. Oppertunities for everyone with nous. A new world is opening up”.
      Meanwhile, Fluffy has been admitted to a secure mental hospital as he is assumed to be a danger to the public.
      Further announcements as to his condition will be released as and when appropiate.
      A spokesman did state that there is no known cure for his condition but further research is on-going. At the moment, he states a trip to Switzerland might be of benefit to the general public.

    172. yesindyref2 says:

      @Valerie
      Yes I see the point. While in theory Royal Prerogative could be used to revoke the Acts of Union, it is a theory until actually performed, and then might be challenged. It’s an uncertain route, last resort.

      But if it’s used by the UK Government / Parliament, then the precedent is established, and no challenge can reasonably be issued when it’s used about the Treaty / Act of Union. It then becomes a fairly easy genuine option.

    173. HandandShrimp says:

      If we had been asked to write a script outlining the best outcome to ensure an Indyref2 I don’t think there is a single thing we could have asked for that has not come to pass.

      These are remarkable days and aloof patrician Hammond is just the icing on the cake (and his sudden conversion to Barnett less than convincing).

    174. Robert Peffers says:

      @galamcennalath says: 14 July, 2016 at 1:04 pm:

      “Valerie says

      “If we can’t swing this now, we never will.”

      Soooooo true

      Awa ye gan. I’m 80 next birthday and I have been an indy supporter since 1946. I can remember so many predictions that the indy movement would die if we didn’t win something or other. Yet here we are now, with indy balanced upon a kni and then get back up and fe edge and still growing.

      There are two types of people – those who suffer a knock and who dwell upon their misfortune for the rest of their lives. Then there are those you suffer hard knocks, climb back onto their feet and get back in the race.

      The indy movement has had its ups and its downs but the trend has always been a slow advance to the goal.

    175. yesindyref2 says:

      @Thepnr
      Sorry, I missed your reply earlier. Yes, the WTO itself is not the best way to go, but within that the UK then negotiates a relationship with the EU, similar to the US One (TTIP) and the Canadian one(forget its letters), rather than the EEA or Swizerland approach. Since the UK wants to negotiate its own trade agreements with non-EU countries, it probably can’t be within the EEA or EFTA, as that would also restrict what it can do. I’m becoming more convinced that the UK has no intention of going the EEA route, it is already setting up a team to negotiate trade treaties – and Boris is there perhaps to make the point more obvious.

      Wild speculation I agree 🙂

    176. Marcia says:

      Before the EU vote I thought it would be a couple of years at least for the Yes side to build a credible case for another referendum. Since the EU Referendum our opponents have been building the case for us and at such speed. The appointment today of the most right-wing Tory Government in my lifetime (Since the days of Churchill in the 1950’s) does concentrate the mind somewhat. If there is one soon, I’ll be there helping out.

    177. Stoker says:

      K1 wrote:
      “That commenting too fast message has appeared 3 times whilst trying tae post this comment, so apologies in advance if there are multiple copies of same comment. As I don’t know if the comment still posts irrespective of the ‘warning’”

      It’s been happening to me for a wee while noo K1, but simply refreshing the page, after posting fails, usually works for me and i don’t even have to hit submit again. Another strange one i’ve been experiencing now for a few weeks is the disappearance of all the wee space invader type avatars, AH WIZ QUITE FOND AE MA WAN, LEMMY’S (Motorhead) DOUBLE SO IT WIZ. All the people with their own Avatars are coming through fine now, they weren’t when this first all started. Must be all down to the new, ongoing, server upgrade work being done, i’m a technodiddy so i couldn’t say for sure what’s going on.
      😉
      _____

      yesindyref2 wrote:
      “put yourself in the enemy’s shoes and think the way they think.”

      Feck aff! Am no intae weans!
      🙂

    178. Grouse Beater says:

      Marcia: “Before the EU vote I thought it would be a couple of years at least for the Yes side to build a credible case for another referendum.”

      And you’d be right – two years come September. 🙂

    179. Balaaargh says:

      I think oor man Phil is on to something here…

      Let’s take this a step further – Independence fir Fife! The San Marino o’ Scotland!

      I bet Mr Peffers is thinking that’s no a bad idea noo, eh?

    180. Lenny Hartley says:

      Yesindyref2

      Any idea what the UK presuming we dissolve the union has to export? Or is it all to do with imports?

      Ps Boris booed at French Embassy to night 🙂

    181. Phil Robertson says:

      Andrew Haddow says:
      14 July, 2016 at 6:17 pm
      @Phil Robertson

      “…. England, incorporating as it does the countries of England and Wales and the province of Northern Ireland.”

      You are repeating the mistake and denying the Welsh and Irish their identities. They are no more incorporated in England than Scotland is.

      If you want to stick to royal realms, then England, Scotland and Ireland have all, at times, been kingdoms and Wales was a principality.

      Mr Peffer’s definition of the United Kingdom perhaps held between 1707 and 1801 but has been out of date since then.

    182. Ruby says:

      A lot of coverage in the European press re Boris Johnson’s appointment

      http://tinyurl.com/hr7puav

      Berliner Reaktionen auf Boris Johnson: “Demnächst wird Dracula Gesundheitsminister”

      Coming soon Dracula as Health Minister

      I get the feeling to UK was become a huge joke!

    183. Phil Robertson says:

      Liz g says:
      14 July, 2016 at 7:25 pm
      Phil Robertson
      Tablet’s of stone are mair aboot religious law,think yer getting a wee bit mixed up there.

      It’s a metaphor.

    184. yesindyref2 says:

      @Lenny Hartley
      EU Citizens?

    185. Alan of Neilston says:

      Well said Capella I am rather fed up with the way the S.N.P. is playing this stage in our road to Independence! The Union as espoused yesterday by our New P.M is not the 4 countries but the UNION OF 2 KINGDOMS ( Treaties of Union 1707) that of the Kingdom of Scotland and that of the Kingdom of England ( with Wales and Northern Ireland subsumed). Please can we all recognise this and show that the Treaty of Union between SCOTLAND and ENGLAND has run it’s course and requires to be terminated. If after the meeting tomorrow with The New P.M. of the United Kingdom (ie Scotland and England), and the F.M. of Scotland that there is no way forward for Scotland within the U.K. to remain in the E.U.? It should be absolutely clear that thereafter we require to END THE UNION and seek the legal opinion how this can be done.

    186. yesindyref2 says:

      @Phil Robertson
      As long as it’s not a mutli-coloured squiggly kindegarten graph, that’s acceptable.

    187. Undeadshaun says:

      Does anyone think hammond resembles the smoking man from the xfiles?

    188. Ruby says:

      http://tinyurl.com/hp2pjut

      Europe stunned as ‘King of the Blunder’ Boris Johnson becomes FM

      “Now, finally, there can be no more doubt that British politics is not concerned with the country’s welfare, but with haggling for positions, personal ambitions and power plays.”

    189. Sandy says:

      Fluffy today stated that the Scottish Government must come up with their plans for staying in the EU. Does the twat think that our Government is as stupid as he. What plan has his ENGLISH government got?
      The twat is an embarrassment to both Scotland & his Tory colleagues.

    190. galamcennalath says:

      Norway pays €656m to the EU but gets back around €100m in science and research grants, which makes a per capita net contribution of €107.4. In contrast, The UK’s net contribution of around €9bn works out as €139 per capita.

      Do Brexit enthusiasts believe they can have Norway style access to the EU without continuing to make contributions?

      Why are possible ongoing contributions never discussed? Am I missing something here?

    191. Stoker says:

      Thepnr wrote: “You want your cake and to eat it, can’t have both.”

      Can one of our wiser owl’s explain this old saying for me?
      I’ve never understood it and i’ve been hearing it all my life.
      What’s the point in having a cake you can’t eat?
      If it’s my cake i’m going to damn well eat it.
      I’m truly not joking, i’ve never been able to grasp its meaning.

    192. Dr Jim says:

      The FMs playing a blinder here by saying Scotland’s already in the EU Scotland also voted to remain within the EU

      The UK has to prove their case that what they offer is better for Scotland and so far they haven’t offered Scotland anything because they’ve done no work on the subject

      The UK is just demanding Scotland take a leap in the dark to a land flowing with “Whit”

      Remember when the UK used that argument on us, Alistair Darling with his famous leap in the dark speech to Alex Salmond

      The UK have’nt even told us what currency we’d use if the rest of the world does’nt want the Pound anymore it’s so unstable, and the financial institutions are already unscrewing their plaques from Londons walls

      No, I’m afraid that England’s too wee and too poor now to be Independent from Scotland, because without the subsidies we keep flinging over Hadrians wall to maintain them in the south they can’t make it alone, plus their central bank is in all sorts of trouble with the economy

      That’s why that batshit woman is coming up here to have a go at threatening us coz once again England’s in the crapper and without Scotland’s cash the Gemmes a Bogey

      Maybe it’s time to stop defending ourselves and start attacking them for a change, I mean who on earth do they think they are, our rulers or something

      Give them hell Nippy

    193. yesindyref2 says:

      OT
      When I posted that I had less postings visible after than before and had to refresh to see the later ones I’d already seen. I suspect the Rev’s server upgrade is to make it more resilient, by multi-homing or running off both disks off a RAID, leaving a time-lag for database synch. But I could be talking out of the side of my fingers.

    194. mike cassidy says:

      Sort of insider’s view which reckons May has actually set up Messrs Johnson, Davis and Fox for the big fall –

      so that she can then say this brexit stuff isn’t working!

      http://archive.is/VlYwJ

      I wonder if Nicola will ask her if its all a joke!

    195. Brian Doonthetoon says:

      “The period of de facto independence ended with Edward I’s conquest of the Principality between 1277 and 1283.

      Under the Statute of Rhuddlan the Principality lost its independence and became effectively an annexed territory of the English crown. From 1301, the crown’s lands in north and west Wales formed part of the appanage of England’s heir apparent, with the title “Prince of Wales”.

      On accession of the Prince to the English throne, the lands and title became merged with the Crown again. On two occasions Welsh claimants to the title rose up in rebellion during this period, although neither ultimately succeeded.

      Since the Laws in Wales Acts 1535–1542, which formally incorporated all of Wales within the Kingdom of England, there has been no geographical or constitutional basis for describing any of the territory of Wales as a principality, although the term has occasionally been used in an informal sense to describe the country, and in relation to the honorary title of Prince of Wales.”

      So it would appear that Wales is part of England. End of…

    196. Chris says:

      Stoker: That phrase only makes sense in reverse: “You can’t eat your cake and have it, simultaneously”. It’s basically saying you can’t have two mutually exclusive options at the same time. (That is, you either have the cake, or you have eaten it, but you can’t eat it and still have it un-eaten.)

    197. Thepnr says:

      @Stoker

      You can have your cake, you can admire it, look longingly upon it, smell it even lick it.

      But you cannot eat it becaause then it’s gone forever. No longer to be admired of sniffed. The cake has had it!

      So you can’t BOTH have your cake and eat it. The two are contradictory 🙂

    198. Rock says:

      “Philip Hammond, who replaced George Osborne as new Prime Minister Theresa May appointed her Cabinet, said the vote to leave the European Union was a “democratic decision” made by the United Kingdom as a whole, which would now be implemented.”

      He is absolutely right.

      Scotland is currently nothing more than a region of the UK as far as EU membership is concerned.

      The EU does not have regions as members, only politically sovereign states.

      There is absolutely no other way for Scotland to be a member of the EU apart from independence from the UK.

      The “experts commission” is basically a waste of time and money.

      Nicola should call an independence referendum the moment Thatcher triggers Article 50.

    199. Liz g says:

      Phil Robertson
      Aye well it look’s like you very much not only mixed yer metaphors bit yiv diddled yir dialogue.

    200. Lenny Hartley says:

      Yesindyref2

      Yeah 2 million tax paying Young , fit, economically active EU Citizens being exported and 1.2 million old, senile, infirm economically unactive pensioners coming coming back. 🙂

    201. Sandy says:

      Just got an E-mail from, wait for it, the Daily Express. One of their reports was on a Syrian family wanting to be returned to Syria, due to the ‘welcome, they received.
      Judging by the comments on the site, well, if these are to be believed, Englandshire is a sick, sick country.

    202. tony Coyle says:

      @Stoker Have your cake and eat it too

      Essentially you want to have complete ownership of the cake… you also want to eat the cake. BUT having eaten the cake, you want the whole cake again, whole and pristine.

      In other words, owning the thing is insufficient, using the thing is insufficient, you want a cornucopia-cake machine that gives you endless cake forever (while denying it to others, of course).

    203. K. A. Mylchreest says:

      @ Socrates MacSporran

      Now if true that´s very interesting indeed. So the old Scots Parliament lives on in the form of the current Holyrood assembly, and no one afaik gainsaid WE´s declaration back then, and the clips on the web somewhere, I´ve seen it. But the old English parliament dissolved away and is no more. So if Scotland does leave and the Union ceases to be, then the rump Westminster UK parliament will have no validity and a renewed English parliament will have to be elected, i.e. Scotexit will force a general election south of the border at a time when Labour and quite possible the Tories too are not exactly stable. More interesting times?

    204. Andrew Haddow says:

      @Stoker

      Try it the other way round: You can’t eat your cake and still have it.

    205. yesindyref2 says:

      Roughly speaking, the exports from EU countries to other EU-28 countries (Intra-EU) total EUR 2,800 billion. Imports from China total EUR 350 bilion, one-eigth of the EU intra-EU, for which China pays no membership fee.

    206. WP says:

      Don’t know about you guys but I’ve had about ten
      people who voted no who tell me they would now vote Yes.
      I think independence will happen this time despite all the lies
      we will endure. I say bring it on.

    207. Robert Peffers says:

      @Balaaargh says: 14 July, 2016 at 7:51 pm:

      “I think oor man Phil is on to something here…

      Let’s take this a step further – Independence fir Fife! The San Marino o’ Scotland!

      I bet Mr Peffers is thinking that’s no a bad idea noo, eh?”

      No me,Balaaargh, I’m a long term Independence fir Scotland man. Syne 1946 even.

      Wasn’t it Willie Gallagher MP who used to go on about the Independent republic of Lumphinnans?

    208. John Edgar says:

      Has Labour in Scotland said anything about the new Cabinet?
      Or is it paralysed waiting for Labour dahn sath to tell it what to say and how to react?
      Given the strife in head office, it could be a long wait!
      With Boris, Hammond et al in power, it looks like a comic circus.
      The May cabinet looks like a mixed bag thrown together from the dregs of Cameron’s regime. The only enthusiasm seems to come from EBC.
      The swing to the nasty righter than right is scary. The mess seems to be getting messier!!
      I would imagine the 27 members of the EU will have a field day with them.
      The last “shout” of Westminster and its deadbeats.
      The two yoons must be the goons of the 21st century.

    209. Bob Mack says:

      Hearing that following a speech at the French Embassy tonight Boris was booed by the staff.
      Good start eh?

    210. DerekM says:

      @ Stoker

      I always thought it was another way of saying eyes were bigger than your stomach or meaning a reference towards being greedy,caught with your hand stuck in the cookie jar is another.

      Bit off more than you can chew we must have had a thing for all that at one time now i think people are more direct and just use greedy bastard.

    211. Brian Doonthetoon says:

      Hi Rock.

      You typed,
      “The “experts commission” is basically a waste of time and money.”

      Try thinking outside your rather cramped box.

      You don’t believe that the Scottish Government has to exhaust ALL options before, regretfully, having to announce Indyref2?

      When the “experts commission” announces, regretfully, that the only way they can see Scotland remaining in the EU is as an independent nation, will you still regard them as “a waste of time and money”?

      Sometimes enthusiasm for an outcome has to be tempered with pragmatism.

    212. Stoker says:

      @ Thepnr (8:26pm) and Andrew Haddow (8:41pm)
      Ah, right, got it now guys, at long last, cheers!

      Time for a movie on Netflix me thinks!

    213. Stoker says:

      @ DerekM (8:53pm): Good to see i’m not the only engineless train. LLF
      🙂

    214. Brian Doonthetoon says:

      Hi Robert Peffers.

      Check out the black t-shirt on the left. (Next to Chris Law.)

      https://sites.google.com/site/webgaffer/home/uploaded-pics-page-8/DSCN0160-1000.jpg

    215. Polscot says:

      Robert Peffers says:
      14 July, 2016 at 7:38 pm

      Awa ye gan. I’m 80 next birthday and I have been an indy supporter since 1946. I can remember so many predictions that the indy movement would die if we didn’t win something or other. Yet here we are now, with indy balanced upon a kni and then get back up and fe edge and still growing.

      There are two types of people – those who suffer a knock and who dwell upon their misfortune for the rest of their lives. Then there are those you suffer hard knocks, climb back onto their feet and get back in the race.

      The indy movement has had its ups and its downs but the trend has always been a slow advance to the goal.

      I agree wholeheartedly with your sentiments, Robert. Some people should read the story about Robert the Bruce and the spider, they might learn a worthwhile lesson.

    216. Thepnr says:

      See that £350m the Brexiteers were going to use for funding the NHS. Yes, that fictitious money. Well unless the Uk somehow negotiate that trade with the EU remain tariff free UK business will be swallowing that cost just in order to keep trading.

      If the UK sincerely wants trade to remain tariff free with the EU then as Ruth would tell them, the line in the sand is that they must then also to agree with free movement of people. They will also have to contribute billions just as EEA and EFTA countries currently do. No cherry picking has been made clear.

      Will that deal be made? I doubt the UK can have its cake and eat it.

    217. Thepnr says:

      @Brian Doonthetoon

      A few well kent faces in that picture Brian, I see you mangaed to avoid it. LOL

    218. Thepnr says:

      @Brian Doonthetoon

      Many apologies. Just saw your ugly mug 🙂

    219. Calum McKay says:

      What other country in the world would the press rejoice in trying to belittle the leader of a country for trying against the odds to secure the future her people voted for by a majority of 62% to 38%?

      Scottish press, with few exceptions brown nosing liars, in a job that requires them to lie to their fellow countrymen and women.

      As for hammond, what convinces unionist Scots that this man over Nicola Sturgeon has their interests at heart?

    220. Valerie says:

      @Dr Jim
      completely agree, as I said earlier, this time we throw the kitchen sink. I think Nicola knows, it’s now or never.

      @Robert Peffers
      Please don’t think I wouldn’t want the movement to continue and grow, but at this particular time, we have the perfect storm. We have SO many advantages this time to make the break, it will never be this good again.

      This is not defeatist, it’s reality.

      A second lost referendum will be a major setback. With that lost momentum, the Tories will just move in to collect, just as they are now with Labour. The Tories will be in power for at least 10 years.

      These are facts.

    221. mike cassidy says:

      Schroedinger’s cake.

      You can have it and eat it!

      Isn’t quantum physics great?!

    222. Valerie says:

      @Polscot
      I know the story of the spider. Look where Scotland went anyway, thanks to her many enemies.

      I am actually an optimist by nature, I have had MANY severe life knocks.

      However, perhaps because of my life experiences, as well as a career in and around politics, I know when it’s time for me to bow out.

      That time will be a second lost referendum.

    223. DerekM says:

      hot leak from our spy network the French are confused they thought the UK was sending someone who speaks English but it turns out its some TV host off a bad satire news show that takes the piss out them.

      French security services on high alert after reports of English thugs gibbering nonsense drunk out their minds,it was a false alarm as it turned out only to be boris.

      A french unamed spokesman said it was horrible it could have been anything we should have shot it first and asked questions later, which got a hearty cheer in agreement from the small crowd gathered receiving medical attention on the scene outside the airport.

      On other news it would appear the UK this week has reached extreme levels of badness as you can see here by our chart we made up the line shows the UK is bad.

    224. call me dave says:

      Joyce McMillan: Hold tight for the great step forward

      http://archive.is/Cc7dZ

      Footie:
      A win
      A draw
      A loss

    225. Rock says:

      Brian Doonthetoon,

      “You don’t believe that the Scottish Government has to exhaust ALL options before, regretfully, having to announce Indyref2?”

      It is crystal clear to anyone with a bit of common sense that there is only ONE option available: Full Independence.

      To retain all the goodwill she has, Nicola has to clearly tell this pretty soon to the people of Scotland.

      Commissions made of “experts” deliberatly fudge the issues and delay things.

      To have any credibility, the “experts commission” must report within one month of being appointed.

      Four of the experts have already stated that independence is the only way:

      Dr Kirsty Hughes of Friends of Europe:

      “in terms of preserving Scotland’s EU status, “the simplest and most obvious way would be to be an independent state and transition in and stay in the EU”.

      Prof Sionaidh Douglas-Scott of the Queen Mary School of Law at the University of London:

      “it was very difficult to see how one part of the UK could be in the EU and not the other parts.”

      Former European Court of Justice judge Prof Sir David Edward:

      “It doesn’t seem to me possible to envisage a position of Scotland remaining part of the UK but having a separate relationship in relation to the single market.”

      Prof Drew Scott of the University of Edinburgh:

      “Why could Scotland not be the successor state?”

      “this scenario was “not impossible” if Scotland did vote in favour of independence in any referendum.”

      The four experts can of course change their mind, like all those Labour MPs who voted for the Iraq war after being presented with the “undeniable evidence” of Iraq’s weapons of mass destruction.

    226. Thepnr says:

      @mike cassidy

      Brilliant hahaha.

    227. Robert Louis says:

      Like others above, I too have spoken with folk, who did reluctantly vote NO at indyref1, but are now chomping at the bit for another chance.

      I do understand Nicola is making sure all other options are eliminated before going for independence, but really, the SNP need to act soon. I agree with others, that in her meeting with Theresa, the FM really needs to set things out unequivocally, that Scotland is NOT leaving the EU. It is simply not negotiable.

      Theresa needs to travel home from Edinburgh, knowing absolutely that Brexit is simply not going to be allowed for Scotland. Theresa is NOT our leader, she is a guest of Scotland, and needs to behave accordingly. London can say what it likes, Scotland will follow its own course.

      Oh, and maybe a wee history lesson on the FACTS of the Anglo-Scottish treaty of union might help the new Tory Prime Minister understand her ‘beloved union’ just a little bit better.

      With each passing day the divergence of Scotland from England widens, but in many ways, it is Westminster’s own doing. Akin to Jimmy Reid’s famous statement regarding the Labour party, we might say, Scotland isn’t leaving England, England is leaving Scotland. Good.

    228. mike cassidy says:

      Robert Peffers 8.45

      re Gallagher, Lumphinnans etc

      You’ll like this from 2002

      http://archive.is/QnavI

    229. schrodingers cat says:

      glad to see folk here picking up on the eu’s negotiating angle.
      uk politics at the moment seems to be happening in a bubble with no reference as to what the eu will do. the eu did keep quiet during the referendum but since the result there has been more than one highly placed eu official stating that
      “no free movement, no free access”

      it seems quite clear to me, if the uk imposes even slight controls on borders, no free access to the market. Why uk politicians are still pedalling the myth that they will negotiate “good deal” when what they are asking for isnt in their power to give.

      they cant eat their cake and have it
      🙂

    230. Dr Jim says:

      The expert committee is the right way to go the FMs got it right
      You don’t knock George Foreman out in the first round
      Or shout at him with your very own big mouth

      No historyonics no testosterone rushes no hormonal tantrums
      Cold cool, wait your chance while they get tired and look the other way
      The FM is the woman for this job, give her the chance and she’ll slice the Bastirts up

    231. Vronsky says:

      Well, I got the Brer Rabbit reference. Nice one, Rev.

    232. Polscot says:

      @Valerie 9:37 pm
      Valerie, I respect your choice as to when you decide that you can no longer support independence for Scotland.

      Independence did not happen in my father’s lifetime, it may not happen in my lifetime, but if my children live to qualify for a Scottish passport (or even their children) then the struggle will be worth it for me.

      I haven’t been involved politics, but developing my own business has taught me that try, try and try again will produce results.

      This is not an attack on your views or opinions, we have different perspectives on a common objective. All I would ask is that you never give up. We will succeed eventually, whether it takes two referendums or seven.

    233. liz g says:

      Rock
      Don’t think the experts looking at all the possible theoretical ways to stay in both Union’s it as waste of time and money at all.
      Rather that it’s a way to head off another Vow type offer by having and debunking all the scheme’s the media will propose and try to sell as the “best of both worlds”.
      And getting it done before Westminster has its act together.
      So all in all I thought it was very clever.

    234. schrodingers cat says:

      It is crystal clear to anyone with a bit of common sense that there is only ONE option available: Full Independence

      correct, the negotiating tactic by nicola is only to buy time,

      hammonds comment 2day effectively ends any chance of a negotiated solution without indy and ends nicola’s tactic.

      shame, i wanted to see a string of polls with yes at least at 57% not including DK’s before indyref2 was launched. that option is now gone.

      strange silence of the pollsters, one or 2 just after eu ref, newspaper online ones and nothing for 2 weeks?

      now that thatcher is back in business, i would like to see a poll since she took office and after 2morrow when she visits scotland 4 the 1st time and tells us all to f off,

      will she oppose indyref2 and ignore result, this is the confrontation holyrood has been avoiding for some time. although the scots tories and slab dont support this action, 2morrow we will find out, D day folks

    235. mike cassidy says:

      I notice Raging Ruth is very sad to see Stephen Crabb go.

      “A tremendous talent”

      Crikey!

      There must be more to this sexting activity than I thought.

    236. Bob Mack says:

      I think the Rev is organising a poll Re indy ref 2 ,but I am not 100% sure.

    237. Brian Powell says:

      Whatever May says when she is in Scotland tomorrow, it will be the perfect putdown, according to the ‘Scottish’ press and sundry commentators.

    238. Valerie says:

      @Dr Jim
      you are right about the experts panel. Too many decry Nicola when she announces anything. It’s disgustingly, unfounded personal attacks, like Salmond.

      They never attack the policy, just some snide personal attack. This experts panel has a really good cross section, who in turn have a wide sphere of influence. It was a smart move.

      Slab are very quiet, no comment about the new PM, or antics of their own party

      It beggars belief, that even combining the IQ of Slab, they can’t figure out they are dead in the water. If they had an ounce of gumption, they would declare themselves free of Labour HQ London.

      Tories do what they do, but Labour are beyond salvation or parody. They deserve nothing but disgust for the on going spectacle down south.

      Folk down south are desperate, and the actions of the NEC etc. are heinous.

    239. Chic McGregor says:

      Hammond is just an organ of the state.

      The key thing is it is not that black and white.

      Scottish freedom is more pipe line than pipe dream.

      Ignore the bellows and attempts to stop it.

    240. O/T

      A representative of the National YES Registry will be down in Dunoon at the Forward Shop tomorrow evening from 7pm for an informal meeting with activists. I’ll try to get him onto Forward Argyll Independent Radio about 7.50 to say a few words before my Rock’n’Roll show.

      http://www.argyllradio.co.uk

    241. Robert J. Sutherland says:

      Hammond: No exceptions, we’re all exiting together.
      May: I really do care about the (UK) Union.

      Given how the whole of Scotland voted, those two comments just don’t square-up. I’m left wondering if they understand the position and are cynically trying to bluff their way through or if they’re still in denial, one of the (for them, rather minor) consequences of their shocking total lack of preparedness for Brexit.

      Unlike the predictably soor-prune Rock, I welcome the creation of the Council of Experts. It’s true that we don’t really need it to state what’s already staringly obvious, but it provides political cover for oor Nicola so the MSM can’t just dismiss her position out of hand, as they are positively lusting to do.

      As to the rUK position on a treaty with the EU, I don’t see a hard-nosed refusal to agree as a viable option, even with David Davis in charge. Why? Because it would cost too much economically (eg. City of London “passporting”), and also directly trigger indyref2. Whatever May really believes about the Union (and I reckon she is sincere if typically pig-ignorant), there are many very good reasons why the rUK really does need us, as others were asking recently. I still believe there will be a deal, and Scotland will be used as the scapegoat to “explain” to disgruntled sold-out Leavers that open borders are the “compromise solution” necessary to preserve the Union, to rally the remaining Scot-Buts, and also to appease all those non-Scots Remain voters, who are a very substantial minority overall, and indeed a majority in London. (And this, BTW, is a very wily appointment by May, to make one of the arch-sceptics carry the can for the compromise.)

      As for Buffalo Gal, that was an interesting theory about her heading for the SoS instead of Fluffy. But I believe her “promotion” is intended to line her up as chief spokesperson for the upcoming BT2. When that happens, you can say that you read it first here!

    242. Cactus says:

      Evening Ailes. Ah cannae remember how recent it happened but doesn’t it feeeeel good that Scotland’s second independence referendum (of modern times) has been completely normalised now, accepted and expected by the people of Scotland, and is just around the next corner 🙂

      Go us! Independence impending!

    243. Brian Doonthetoon says:

      Hi Chic McGregor.

      You typed,
      “Hammond is just an organ”.

      Well done, that man! Best pun of the evening! Keith Emerson would be so proud…

    244. Thepnr says:

      I look forward to the visit of Scotlands esteemed Prime Minister only in the belief that it will undoubtedly bring more support for Independence.

      Quite a few getting all wound up while I’m quietly sitting laughing my arse off. Nothing this momentously bad has happened before to sour the relationship or the “Union” if you must between Scotland and England in my lifetime.

      For once supporters of Independence including our government are in the driving seat. It’s as clear as day to me that Nicola Sturgeon holds all the aces, probably with a few up her sleeve as well.

      Let’s remain positive and meantime keep organising those local meetings such as the SNP branch did the other day with Craig Murray as a guest speaker. Was really good and a great turnout.

      Maybe your local branch could invite him along? Not for me to say of course but anything that might bring Independence closer is a winner for me.

      Even if you can’t just do what I do, talk to people. I’m never “in their faces” or pushy but always willing to give my and the Independence point of view. Not always easy, that’s for sure but common sense tells you when it’s right to speak up and we all have common sense.

      You can’t win a battle without a fight. We’re in a fight, have no doubt.

    245. call me dave says:

      O/T
      Reports: Up to 30 dead in Bastille Day terror in Nice

      http://archive.is/LS6iS

    246. HandandShrimp says:

      I did laugh when I heard one of the radio shortbread chaps orgasmic moaning over May’s “Precious Precious Union”. You could hear the fap fap fap in the background and, disturbingly, the tortoise cum face was only too easy to visualise.

    247. crazycat says:

      @ Thepnr at 3.47

      Re: your surprise that Fox dropped out so early.

      He didn’t drop out; he lost heavily in the first round of voting. He was gubbed, humiliated, rejected, out on his ear (or any other part of his anatomy).

      It was Crabb who then decided not to continue; he was far enough behind to expect the same fate in round 2.

    248. Polscot says:

      Chic McGregor says:
      14 July, 2016 at 10:41 pm

      Scottish freedom is more pipe line than pipe dream.

      Exactly, the process has just started. It will be funny to see how the BBC spin Nicola’s education of Teresa Mayniac tomorrow.

    249. mike cassidy says:

      That speculation about Raging Ruth becoming SOS was puzzling me.

      It turned out not to be so, but surely no MSP can take up a UK Government Cabinet Post anyway.

    250. Thepnr says:

      @crazycat

      I didn’t mean that he “voluntarily” dropped out. He dropped out none the less as he couldn’t get enough support from his MPs.

      What I did say though was he would have had the support of the members for his views on slashing welfare further in order to buy more missiles. Hope we’ve cleared that up 🙂

    251. davidb says:

      This is very important. We are going to get crap threats made about our trade with England in IR2. Read this, digest it, remember it and make sure everyone you hear “no trade with England” from gets it in no uncertain terms.

      https://archive.is/bT6D1

      You trade with all the EU as a group. You negotiate with the group. You don’t select who you trade with.

      English threats to Scots trade will have no basis. Shout it loud.

    252. Robert Peffers says:

      @Phil Robertson says: 14 July, 2016 at 5:08 pm:

      “The electorate for the EU referendum was the whole of the UK.”

      Utter pish! Scotland is a country and a kingdom. In point of historic fact the old Scottish parliament of 1706/7 was never formally ended it was only proclaimed as prorogued by town criers around the streets of the capital city.

      Unlike the Westminster Parliament that met and formally would itself up. When the Holyrood Parliament was opened by Winnie Ewing she declared it open as the reconvened old Scottish parliament. This has never been officially questioned or denied.

      Then we have the fact that the Treaty of Union declared several things due to the incompatibilities of the two kingdoms’ legal systems.

      Scottish law is based upon the people of Scotland being sovereign while the legal system of the kingdom of England is a constitutional monarchy. This was due to the English legal fact that, “A sovereign, just by being sovereign, cannot legally renounce their sovereignty”. Which is why the Kingdom of England did not declare itself a republic when removing the Royal veto over the English Parliament in 1688.

      Instead they offered the crown to King Billy & Queen Mary but only on condition they, “delegated”, their royal sovereignty to the parliament of England. Remember, at that time the existing law of that kingdom had been, “Divine Right of Kings”, and thus the Royals got their sovereignty

    253. Thepnr says:

      Reports of terrorist attack in Nice, more than 60 dead feared.

    254. Apollo says:

      Theres a saying ‘You will not soar like an eagle if you are grounded with turkeys’.

      If you listen to the likes of the Ruth ‘the Ruthless’ Davidson, Philip ‘General Cheeseburger’ Hammond or Boris ‘Prince Philip’ Johnson then you will be flapping about the ground with the rest of the turkeys.

      Be an eagle and soar with Nicola Sturgeon, Alex Salmond, Angus Robertson, John Swinney and the rest of the winners that is fighting day in, day out for the ordinary people of Scotland.

    255. tartanarse says:

      Phil Robertson.

      Fuck off Phil.

    256. yesindyref2 says:

      So Phil Hammond: Asked if he could envisage a situation where Scotland has a different relationship than the rest of the UK with the EU, the Chancellor said: “No.”

      But tonight after May announced the minor appointments like Scribbler of Shite for Scotland, Mundell said his focus is now on “ensuring Scotland gets the best possible deal out of the EU negotiations”.

      Poor out of the loop Mundell, Hammond chopped his legs off at the knees, so he’s half the man he never was (in political terms I hasten to add).

    257. James Barr Gardner says:

      IndyRef2 if you are totally committed to it, march on the 30th July 2016 Botanic Gardens 10am to Freedom (George) Square. If you have never been on a march before do not worry it is your way of letting Nicola know we are behind her. I can guarantee your face will be sore with smiling all day. Just bring yourself along even better with a friend or friends. Flags are good, pipes and drums excellent!

      You will of course know that you will not be on the telly as the BBC and the MSM like it that way and Glasgow (Labour Red Tory) City Council will no doubt have a technical fault with the george square web cam.

      Show Resurrected Thatcher We are not going back in the box, We are European not little england, We are a Country, We are a Nation, We are not stupid, We are not wee, We are the nation of inventions. We will fight hard and We will have an Independent Scotland for our children and grandchildren.

      We will have a fair and truly democratic state that looks after the poor, disabled, elderly. We will end Food Banks and Child Poverty.

      You will have too do your part to get this, nobody is going to hand you it on a plate. Get involved, join a Yes group,
      go to marches, do not be silent, get into it and get into the lying tories.

      We will have the fight of our lives with the Westminster Elite as they have been breed and educated to be our Lords and Masters, but We will be Independent from this Cadre of greedy lying lunatic class.

    258. Bob Mack says:

      England and Labour are going to hell in a basket. It is obvious to anybody the Brexit vote was Mr Ordinary pushing back against Westminster elitism and yet here we have the spectacle of the Labour Party down south railroading the Labour movement into maintaining that very thing. Stupidity.

      One party state for the next decade right enough.The Tories. That alone should give Scots something to ponder even without the EU.

    259. Robert J. Sutherland says:

      davidb,

      You make an important point worth repeating again and again: “All for one and one for all”.

      Solidarity, a position that any old Labourite should be capable of understanding (even if they only had two brain cells left).

      An additional point to keep rehearsing (as someone reminded us earlier), the Brexiteers proudly proclaim that their new rUK is “open for business with the world”. Trade deals with everyone! Deals ten-a-penny!

    260. geeo says:

      Jeez…73 dead now in Bastille day attack.

      Please do not allow Boris to talk about this…!

    261. liz g says:

      Shit
      Ment to be 73 dead in Nice now
      Don’t think it has stopped rising yet

    262. crazycat says:

      @ Thepnr at 11.16

      Cleared up, of course.
      As you know, I’m an irremediable pedant. 🙂

    263. Robert J. Sutherland says:

      O/T re Nice:

      I hope Nicola sends a message to the French President of condolence and unstinting support for the people of France on behalf of the people of Scotland.

    264. Valerie says:

      Hope you can read this. Explains why this is our golden opportunity

      https://mobile.twitter.com/AngusRobertson/status/753492412706807808/photo/1

    265. yesindyref2 says:

      At some time or other, it’s going to be a good idea for Wings to have an article about “fiscal transfer”. There’s an increasing number of the more stupid and gullible unionist who seem to have picked up a figure of £15 billion from somewhere for what they think is the “fiscal transfer” from England. Well, it’s crap. First off any fiscal transfer is not from England to Scotland, it’s from the central UK Government to a devolved administration OR VICE VERSA, to balance fluctuating need against fluctuating resources. Hence the “broad shoulders of the UK”, with fiscal transfers putting some actual meaning to that. But it is bi-directional.

      GERS was set up in around 1992 by the Tories because at that time instead of oil revenues being around £12 billion (cash terms) in the early 80s, they’d dropped to £1 billion. So the Tories, being anti-devolution and seeing the increasing demand for it, set up GERS to show the fiscal transfer FROM the UK TO Scotland, to show us that Devolution was a bad thing. Fortunately 74.6% of us in 1997 didn’t believe the Tories and voted YES.

      Unfortunately for the Tories, oil rebounded – it is volatile after all, and the SNP were able to show that the fiscal transfer was TO the UK FROM Scotland. As in 2011/12, where it was £4.4 billion to the UK from Scotland, according to GERS.

      So in any one year, the fiscal transfer can work either way, it includes welfare and pensions, as well as regular spending, set against revenues.

      But the fiscal transfer from the UK is NOT the deficit, it’s firstly the relative difference between deficits, to make it easy. So if the UK deficit is £90 billion of which Scotland’s normal share is £7.5 billion, but GERS showed a deficit of £15 billion, the difference in deficits would be £7.5 billion from the UK to Scotland, so that is the maximum fiscal transfer which actually occurred. Which is what happened in 2014-15. However, that figure also includes a figure assessed in GERS on the debt, for interest on the “debt” so far, incurred as a result of that total deficit in previous years.

      So first of all when the thicko unionists talk about – as they are time after time – a £15 billion fiscal transfer to Scotlnd”, they haven’t got a clue, they’re using a term they don’t understand in the slightest, it was actually £7.5 billion for last year (according to GERS).

      But secondly if you’re going to make a point about “fiscal transfer”, it is indeed pointless to talk about what it is in 1 year, you need to look at the sum total of fiscal transfers over a period of time to show a trend, and indeed back to the beginning of time to show who owes who what.

      And then complciating the whole thing, working upwards through that posting, is that debt incurred to the beginning of time effectively, which the SNP calculated for Indy Ref 1 was the other way around – i.e., Scotland was making fiscal transfers TO the UK for many years especially the 80s, which they trousered without so much as a thanks.

      To summarise that whole long posting, unionists who talk about fiscal transfers of £15 billion to Scotland are talking crap about something of which they know nothing.

    266. Swami Backverandah says:

      The grassroots of Labour are revolting.
      It’s the revolution come.

      The revolution was supposed to be the people vs the Dark Overlords, not the people vs their own Party.

      Labour couldn’t even get that right.

    267. Iain More says:

      Well I hope that when May tries to bully Sturgeon later today as it is now, that the whole thing is recorded. I have no doubt that whatever is said in the Brit Nat controlled Press and Media about that meeting, that one or more blackmail threats will be made against Scotland collectively.

      I have no doubt that the Machiavellian witch May will have metaphorical daggers strapped to her thighs and acid dripping from her forked tongue.

    268. yesindyref2 says:

      @Valerie
      Heh heh, Maclay Murray and Spens indeed, joining JP Morgan effectively – plus Barclays / HSBC. All of them vile Seps outfits.

    269. Robert J. Sutherland says:

      Was looking on the France24 website just now (for other reasons, alas) but couldn’t help but notice that the link picture for their current (French language) international press revue prog. is none other than yesterday’s (14th) very striking front cover of our dear own National!

      The paper’s commentary was also covered in the programme itself.

      What an agreeable change from the usual non-appearance on the BBC’s own so-called “national” press coverage on News24.

    270. bugsbunny says:

      Breaking News. Lorry in Nice was filled with arms and grenades. WTF now?

    271. Robert J. Sutherland says:

      yesindyref2,

      We need to watch that whole putrid GERS case. Arguing about specifics is akin to the “have you stopped beating your wife yet?” question. People may accept that the figures are wrong, but they will still hang on to the false notion that Scotland is the beggar at England’s supposed feast.

      This argument should be prosecuted as follows:

      + Dismiss GERS outright as a total fix. Period. Example: GERS states England exports £x million of whisky! (Insert correct figure.) Since when has England made any of the Usquabae?

      + Ask the rhetorical question: if Scotland is such a drain on England, why are they so damn anxious to keep us? Duh!

    272. yesindyref2 says:

      Quick summary of that tosh, taken from GERS 2014-15.

      UK deficit = £89.1 billion.
      Scotland’s per capita share = £7.5 billion
      Scotland’s attributed deficit = £14.9 billion

      So Scotland’s relative EXTRA deficit = £7.4 billion. So that was the maximum fiscal transfer that happened in 2014-15, from UK to Scotland.

      BUT – Scotland’s share of UK Public sector debt interest = £2.8 billion. So the baseline fiscal transfer without taking into account arguable interest payments, was £4.6 billion for 2014-15. That’s a far far cry from the Unionists £15 billion claim.

      And don’t forget, if the UK actually “owed” Scotland from the accumulated 30 years or more of fiscal transfers either way, they would owe us interest payments which could be £0, £1 billion, £2 billion … £4.6 billion. Plus the accumulated interest on the interest over the years. So – who knows without rather more detailed analysis than getting a figure off some dunderheid’s blog?

    273. liz g says:

      Robert J Sutherland
      We could also suggest that they could spend the money they save by not subsidising us on their NHS.
      And invite them to ….think of a number…. any number ….. I’m sure there will be plenty of volunteers to drive that bus

    274. Robert J. Sutherland says:

      yesindyref2,

      If some dunderheided cringing yoon quotes any GERS figure, just laugh and ask them “do you also believe in fairies at the bottom of the garden?”.

      Believing either is equally (in)credible.

    275. yesindyref2 says:

      @Robert J. Sutherland
      One step at a time, the first thing is to slap the unionist activists in the face about their “fiscal transfer of £15 billion” claim.

      The difficulty of dismissing GERS in total, however, is that the pro-indy camp used it in Indy Ref 1 to show that Scotland would have been better off by £4.4 billion if Indpendent. So it makes any argument that “GERS is useless” totally unbelievable, and would make us look like fools.

    276. deewal says:

      So what are we going to do when the unelected band of Tory Nazi’s arrest Sturgeon as a security threat and dissolve the SG and withdraw devolution ?

      Talk about the Act of the Union ?

      I don’t recognise the so called

    277. yesindyref2 says:

      @ Robert J. Sutherland: “If some dunderheided cringing yoon quotes any GERS figure, just laugh and ask them “do you also believe in fairies at the bottom of the garden?”.

      Do you seriously thik that’s going to convince one of the many people who are reconsidering their NO vote, but want to see the economic case made out sensibly, to vote YES? I don’t think so, I think they’d consider that to be playground talk.

    278. Molly says:

      Liz g
      They don’t subsidise us on their NHS .

    279. defo says:

      mike cassidy says:
      at 9:36 pm
      “Schroedinger’s cake.

      You can have it and eat it!

      Isn’t quantum physics great?!”

      Yes, but only if you don’t look at it !

    280. majestic12 says:

      BDTT

      Just an observation about the badges, Brian. The French is not quite right. It should read ECOSSE – FRANCE ( not FRANCAIS) or even ECOSSAIS – FRANCAIS, but that’s not so good as the former.

    281. shiregirl says:

      Can’t sleep.

      Just heard as many as 80 dead in Nice.

    282. Macart says:

      @Yesindyref2

      GERS is a pain right enough because its the only set of figures available on Scotland’s performance. We know there is no actual ‘set of books’ covering Scotland’s finances in Scotland at all and all that exists is the GERS snapshot which covers the contribution and expenditure as allocated to a devolved parliament. Not exactly a comprehensive and detailed set of accounting. How and ever, I agree that dismissing them out of hand isn’t the way to deal with them and for folk like myself who aren’t economists or businessmen it is a big scary set of numbers which the opposition use to beat you about the head with.

      There needs to be a two pronged approach in explaining the reality of GERS to people based on their ability to understand IMO, because the usual suspects WILL use the approach at some point and we need to be able to counter it quickly and effectively. The comprehensive numbers debunking for the business minded (minus graphs) and a more historical and political one based on plain salient points for the rest of us mere mortals ( bite size in my case 😀 ).

      There’s a couple of good examples on this site.

      http://wingsoverscotland.com/gers-201314-for-dummies/

      http://wingsoverscotland.com/the-five-key-facts-about-gers/

      Again though, you know its a subject the opposition will fall back on at some point. Forewarned is forearmed 🙂

    283. Macart says:

      Just catching up on the tragedy in Nice.

      Dear God that’s appalling.

    284. Kevin Evans says:

      @yesindyref2

      I always explain the GERS like this.

      Exports from Scotland like timber, whiskey and other Scottish resources get driven down to the southern ports and once there registered and exported from a shipping port down south the dutie and export gets registered as a uk capital and does not show in Scotland’s figures. Much the same as road tax, fuel dutie at the pump and other uk wide taxes don’t show in Scotland’s GERS figures as Westminster has always been cooking the books and not including Scottish tax and revenues on Scotland’s balance sheet. That explains the massive gap in the GERS.

    285. Vambomarbeley says:

      The act of union was ratified by the touch of the Scottish sceptre to the document. Can the act of union not just as easily be dissolved. We still have the sceptre and the document.

    286. yesindyref2 says:

      @Macart, @Kevin Evans, @Robert J. Sutherland
      Yes, I think it’s a two-pronged attack. First of all the unionists have been getting away with the £15 billion figure for weeks, and that’s a totally wrong figure even from GERS itself. I haven’t been bothered till now for two reasons. 1) to debunk it easily we have to show that there is a negative figure, and we’re reluctant to do that. But I’ve seen so many just want the facts so they can decide for themselves. Secondly it hasn’t been the time yet, IR2 was still far away, so why bother.

      But thirdly the actual figure is very easy to debunk, easy, quick and verifiable from GERS, and that is that they’re quoting deficit without even having a clue what it means as fiscal transfer because that sounds kewl, with even less of a clue. They must think it means the money that comes to Holyrood over and above the equivalent revenues – it doesn’t mean that at all. And I must admit to being a bit malicious, it’ll be so satisfying to show that figure up as nonsense (and its source).

      Second then is to go into a whole load more boring detail including accumulated surpleses and deficits, and at the end of that, to point out that GERS is a 1 year snapshot, and isn’t even accurate, as Scotland is attirbuted UK wide spending on a per capita basis even if we don’t actually get any benefit – and indeed, not all revenues are correctly apportioned to Scotland because of the likes of air freight going out of Stanstead, containers from Southampton and so on (it’s not quite that simple as HMRC do go a bit further, but it’ll do).

      Meanwhile I’m going to start with the easy stage 1 – and point out that that’s just the first step to lowering the figure to make it more accurate.

    287. Liz g says:

      Molly @ 2.30
      Sorry Hun that’s not what I ment.
      I know that they don’t subsidise us,on their NHS,or anything else.

      I was having a sarcastic pop at both the propaganda that we cost the English tax pay’er a lot of money and couldn’t survive with out them,and,also the outlandish claim that was made by the leave campaign about the 350 million for the NHS.

      By suggesting we ask the English politicians,and anyone else for an actual number every time they claim we are subsidised and then sweetly, ask why they wouldn’t want to make that saving and spend it on their NHS.

    288. yesindyref2 says:

      Mmm, just browsing around to see what’s going on, and found this on a certain blog:

      Scotland currently receives an effective fiscal transfer from the rest of the UK of over £9bn pa

      Two basic understanding mistakes, and that doesn’t even include the exaggerated figure. What a laugh!

    289. yesindyref2 says:

      Damn, it’s actually 3 basic mistakes, in the one sentence, not including the figure.

      I’m going to bed, night night.

    290. Ken500 says:

      Scotland is losing £4Billion a year because Osbourne was taxing the Oil sector at 60/80% when the price had fallen 75%. Losing thousands of jobs. It is now 40% tax since Jan 2016. The price is now approx 50%

      Two years ago Scotland raised ( GERS – it should be more) £54Billion in taxes. Including £4 in Oil revenues. Last year Scotland raised £54Billion (the same amount) with no Oil revenues. Scotland has lost more than £4Billion a year in Oil revenues since 2011Budget when Osbourne (Alexander) put up Oil tax to 80%. Osbourne increased it by 11% (£2Billion) a year in 2011Budget. Resulting in a loss of Oil revenues as the price was falling. Projects were cut because of the tax. It meant that intended Projects would not be profitable because of the high tax.

      Scotland raises more taxes than the rest of the UK. Pro rata. Scotland exports more and imports less (pro rata) than the rest of the UK. Relatively balanced. No balance of payment deficit or debt. The rest of the UK imports more and exports less – pro rata. The rest of the UK has a large(r) balance of payments deficit and more debt (pro rata). So it has to borrow more. Scotland has to pay off the debt for monies not borrowed or spent in Scotland.

      Total taxes raised in the UK £515Billion. (UK Gov Accounts – Google) Scotland raises £54Billion (Scottish Gov Accounts- Google) Take £54Billion from £515Billion = £461Billion raised in the rest of the UK. Divide £461Billion by 11 (Scotland 1/12 of UK pop – 5.2Billiom. Rest of the UK – 58Million?

      = £42Billion. The rest of the UK borrow and spend £75Billion (deficit) + £20Billion (black hole – no growth) = £95Billion. £95Billion + £461Billion (raised in rest of the UK ) = £556 spent in the rest of the UK. Scotland has to make repayments from the £54Billion raised in Scotland on the debt (deficit) borrowed in the rest of the UK – approx £3Billion.

      £3Billion is taken from Scotland £54Billion in debt repayments on money not borrowed and spent in Scotland. Scotland loses the £3Billion. Scotland loses approx £4Billion in Oil tax revenues (Osbourne high taxes when the price had fallen – £20Billion+ over 5 years) Scotland pays approx £1Billion on Trident/illegal wars, Scotland could save £1Billion with a tax on ‘loss leading’ alcohol. Scotland drink too much (health) Scotland loses £3Billion? A year in tax evasion, HMRC is not fit for purpose. The UK tax Laws are not enforced by Westminster

      Total £3Billion + £4Billion + £1Billion + £1Billion + £3Billion = £12Billion + which could be better spent.

      If Scotland build frigates instead of Trident, to patrol the shore. Less drugs would be available to ruin communities and the Scottish economy. More people would be economically active.
      Less whisky companies would be tax evading. More investment would come from the EU for renewables and CCS projects blocked by Westminster indecision and broken promises £Billions. More foreign graduate students could stay in Scotland adding to the economy and pop numbers. Making Scotland more economical,y viable, without Trident Oil could be developed in the West. (Without an alternative).

      Electricity costs could be lower in Scotland which is nearer the source and Scotland could export more fuel and energy. Instead of paying higher charges, A boost to the Scottish economy.

      May Is coming to Scotland. When Thatcher came to Scotland to give a lecture at the Scottish Church Assembly. The ‘sermon on the Mound’. She said ‘we the English are generous to you Scots’ conveniently forgetting to mention the average equivalent of £20Billion a year in Oil revenues she was secretly taking out of Scotland. To build up London. Building Canary Wharf and Tilbury Docks (26 miles) etc. Thatcher was keeping it hidden under the Official Secrets Act. Her Scottish Minister were sworn to secrecy. One of them resigned. The McCrone Report was kept secret for 30 years by Labour. They lied. Westminster is full of lying Unionist criminals. They keep their crimes illegally secret under the Official Secrets Act.

      Westminster is an illegitimate Gov. The Tories committed electoral fraud. They overspent in expenses in 29 seats. Punishable by prison. They won in 25. They have a majority of 12. They should be held to account and by-elections or a GE should be held. How much longer can this farce continue. A non mandated UK Gov ruining the world economy.

      Scotland block Grant is £30Billion. Approx £16Billion on (UK) gov pensions/benefits and approx £4Billion on Defence = £50Billion + Loan repayments on money not borrowed or spent in Scotland. Approx £3Billion. – £1Billion and the rest short changed. No Deficit or debt if Scotland managed it’s own economy. In surplus. People in Scotland are still be sanctioned and starved by Westminster greedy, tax evading, criminal parasites.

    291. Robert J. Sutherland says:

      yesindyref2 @ 01:47 & 02:18,

      Good morning!

      Yes, your latter comment would be right if the put-down was on its own and not the punch-line to a solid case. But I do disagree about your argument that we have to re-cycle the case that was put in indyref1. After all, that didn’t work out too well, did it?

      You are right about the £15 billion “subsidy”. It’s another Goebbels-style Big Lie just like the “EU makes 60% of our laws” of the recent ref, and it does need to be challenged.

      But I ask you to imagine this scenario:

      You with your expertise go head-to-head on some programme with a besuited BT2 type over GERS. You quote chapter and verse, all correct as far as it goes, then your opponent refutes it all with their own figures. They might be playing fast-and-loose with the facts, but if they’re smart they will have mined the GERS figures for sufficient counter-examples to be at least superficially convincing.

      You or I have already have confidence that indy will give us a better deal in the longer term, even if there are some hiccups to endure at the very start, but the average punter watching this programme won’t be able to see your halo and your opponent’s horns. They’ll just be confused. Which is exactly what the BT2 person wants to happen. They don’t want clarity, and that’s exactly what GERS was designed to facilitate.

      So the cry goes up just as before: “I don’t have enough information – give me the facts!”. Even though they are actually drowning in “facts”. What they are really saying is not “give me all the grisly details so I can pore over them at my leisure” but simply “give me fair reassurance that indy will be OK”.

      GERS can’t do that. In point of fact, it’s specifically designed not to! The best you can do with GERS is to identify several convincing examples of where it’s manifestly bent (eg the English whisky), and thereby extinguish the BT2 FUD.

      What we need instead, as I have argued before, are tangible positive cases that can foster reassurance. Identify a number of small countries and compare their vital statistics (population, GDP, standard of living, natural resources, etc.) with those of Scotland, and people (I believe) will then readily be able to see that those other countries are getting by very well, thank you very much, and readily deduce that we can clearly do even better than most if not all of them.

      That is the best way, I believe, to convince doubters of the safety of the case for indy.

      The only other possible use for the GERS figures (whether real or invented), IMO, is to convince people that any current deficit is a direct measure of past UK mismanagement and incompetence and from whose miserable clutches we would clearly be better off free. Turn the yoon sewer around and direct its effluent straight back at them!

    292. Tam Jardine says:

      yesindyref2

      My quick way to discuss GERS- A. It is a snapshot of finances after 300 years of the union. B. The finances on day 1 of indy would be unrecognisable
      C. The £11 billion of joint spending by UK government (largely outside Scotland)- if that was spent in Scotland instead it would keep the expenditure the same but act as a massive financial stimulus.

      The independence dividend

    293. Ken500 says:

      When May Thatcher was in charge of immigration. She cut the Staff and appointed a new heid banger . She cut the Staff. Creating such large queues that no one could get in and out of Britain. The new heid had to let in travellers without checks to relieve the stress. Anywhere but Heathrow. Migration increased. The numbers increased. May Thatcher blamed the new head banger, she had appointed. They resigned and called her out for her policies. A total and utter failure. Just like a Tory Gov. Migrant numbers increased. The migration crisis in Europe is caused by US/UK/France bombing the Middle East for years and taking their Oil resources.

      May Thatcher should be sent home to think again, Never, ever trust a Tory/Unionist politician, especially in Scotland. Habitual liars. Tory politicians are ‘psycho bastards’. Their own description.

    294. Molly says:

      Liz g
      Sorry Liz should have been in my bed (but everything is a bit upside down the now) and should have got your point.

      Maybe for Indy Ref 2 there should be a panel of experts too for currency, fact checkers etc especially after the fact free campaign of Brexit.

      Of course that would require a media who report the facts.

    295. Bob Mack says:

      Another sad morning dawns after a night of tragedy. Look no further than UK and Western foreign policy for the culprit. The guy in the truck was only the instrument.
      Every bomb that rains on the Middle East primes yet another young person to give their life in a murderous act of retaliation.

      This has to stop,because crucially nobody is winning anything. Can we continue the slaughter of innocents till we kill off one or the other sides of the argument?

      Many of these who commit these acts are filled with rage at loss of their own family or relatives or loved ones.

      No doubt another bombing mission will soon ollow as retaliation, and more will die.
      The repetitive cycle continues unabated. I offer my sincere condolences to the French people on their loss,and I shall remember the dead and injured in my prayers, because that is all I can do.

      There is no love of life here.

    296. Breeks says:

      My problem with economic figures, such as GERS but not just GERS, is their source. They come from a government which has cheated and lied to Scotland for decades, and sponsors the most generously funded propaganda network on the planet to keep us in the dark. Trust me ! Trust me! Look! Here are the figures!

      The only figure that troubles me is Norway amassing a $600billion oil fund from the same resource which the Neoliberal UK can turn into a £1.5 trillion National debt with a comparable further sum in personal private debt. But never mind the actual figures, half them or double them, you can still recognise the difference between astute government and withering incompetence.

      I don’t care whether Westminster runs Scotland for loss or profit. It’s a job we should be doing ourselves. Only then will we know the real shape of Scotland’s economic performance, without Westminster fiddling our economy or the Unionist propagandists fiddling the figures.

      So the BBC and media, and the spin doctors in Westminster can publish all the figures they want. They are proven sociopathic liars, and their integrity is thoroughly shot through. I can live with a poor economy, (if indeed it is poor), there is the chance and challenge to improve it. What I want rid off is Westminster’s meddling and interference in our Nations affairs, and their despicable unionist propaganda; both of which have earned my scornful, heartfelt contempt.

      Scotland, I willingly take thee from this day forward, for better, for worse, for richer, for poorer, in sickness and in health, in surplus or in deficit, to love and to cherish, until death do us part.

    297. liz g says:

      Molly 8.15
      It’s nae bother Hun.
      Was a pretty poor joke anyway.X

    298. Breeks at 8.27

      I agree entirely. Why should we pay any attention to economic advice from an organisation with a £1.65 trillion debt which has Scotland trapped in it. We should no longer fight battles on ground chosen by our enemeies.

    299. scottieDog says:

      Gers pretty much irrelevant. If you think about the area of the uk with the highest tax yield and therefore lowest deficit – the south east,
      It also benefits from the highest capital investment from government.
      That area also benefitted from the biggest bailout post 2008 crisis – ie the banking sector.

    300. Andrew McLean says:

      My heart felt sorrow to our French brothers, another waste of life, that has absolutely nothing to do with religion, and I serenely hope it isn’t used by another group of exactly the same type of nutters to blame Islam, or any of my Scottish Muslim brothers.

      One of the first examples of joint nationality was France and Scotland http://www.historic-uk.com/HistoryUK/HistoryofScotland/The-Auld-Alliance-France-Scotland/ England on the other hand has a rather different historical relationship.

      Vive la France,Vive la République,Vive la Liberté,

    301. Dr Jim says:

      I’m really fed up being insulted on a daily, even hourly basis by the population of England and it’s Northern wannabees about my choice of Government as if in some way the SNP sneaked into power and somehow won’t let go and are doing something I don’t want them to do and if I do then I’m a moron

      The abuse has reached such a level now as to be intolerable towards the First Minister even to just switching on my computer my immediate home page is MSN and it’s chokka with abuse towards me and my choices, I paid for my computer and yet it’s invaded by English opinion on stuff they know zero about and the thing is I don’t have the bad manners to return that abuse or the inclination but I really shoudn’t have to should I

      These uninformed unpleasant ungulants own our newspapers and stick their vile opinions on the front of them, they own our TV screens to misreport on every Scottish item, they interview the so called ordinary person in the street but make sure an anti Scottish vibe is put accross all in order to pretend that somehow our choice of Government and representatives are all a horrible mistake and no matter what is decided, even to our worst detriment should be decided in England

      I suppose if it were’nt for the fact that most English folk probably don’t care one way or another what goes on in Scotland is at least a comfort unlike the aforementioned newpapers, TV and internet trolls, which the newspapers are entirely responsible for

      These newspapers bemoan their ailing sales and blame the internet and yet if it wasn’t for the appalling trolling by newspapers we wouldn’t have all the little apprentice trolling public who learned their vile trade from the very papers they’re putting out of business

      So in that again there is a comfort to be had, yet it still leaves the most foul taste in the mouth when for no reason other than a desire to dominate their fellow man, or denigrate anothers country, or hurl filthy abuse at another countries choices they take to the only cowardly thing they can do, sit behind an anonymous keyboard and abuse Nicola Sturgeon a woman they don’t know and likely will never know
      and in doing so insult a Nation who chose her as their representative in things political and to run their country on their behalf

      All I can say to these degenerate newspeople TV people and public people is if they were ever hoping to win Scotland over to their way of thinking, only a complete and utter moron would be continuing with a strategy that just pisses me off and increases my determination even more to oppose everything they are thus making their efforts as stupid as they are

      Oh and by the way Nicola Sturgeon for Queen

      Did that annoy you……… Diddums

    302. Bob Mack says:

      The Rev has put a link on his twitter to the proposed new Act of Union. You should read it if you can. Basically things remain the same with the illusion of equality. Westminster still holds all the important areas of policy making.

      Not for me

    303. Liz g says:

      Andrew McLean @ 9.38
      I’ll second that Andrew,and also,oor Muslims are jist fine.
      Always hiv been.

    304. galamcennalath says:

      @Nana

      Thanks again for our morning reading list! 🙂

      The Trident one is good …

      “Scotland now faces the prospect of being doubly coerced. Into leaving the EU, and into providing bases for the UK’s nuclear weapons, in perpetuity and against its democratic will in each case. ”

      Timing is perfect! The Tories just keep on giving us reasons to depart.

    305. Valerie says:

      @Bob Mack 8.25

      Those were my exact thoughts. France has played a prominent role in colonialism, and features in almost every war, bombing mission.

      It’s innocent people dying on both sides, for politicians.

      Thoughts to all those innocents in France, and abroad, paying the price.

      IMO, it’s the media campaign, similar to Brexit, whipping up hatred against brown people of a different religion that blinds people to the media silence of deaths in the Middle East.

    306. frogesque says:

      One question only for Teresa, we weely weely lub our Northern neighbours, May.

      How did YOU vote and behave during the passage of the Scotland Bill?

    307. galamcennalath says:

      Bob Mack says:

      “…. proposed new Act of Union. You should read it if you can. Basically things remain the same with the illusion of equality. Westminster still holds all the important areas of policy making.”

      The key point about this proposal is it has been created exclusively (I believe) by Unionists!

      One example of what you say is immigration and the EU remain reserved, so their proposals offer no solutions to the current constitutional crisis.

      Not that I’m suggesting I want a new act of union … however … what it would need are things like a Scottish veto on all issues where the big oversized England can never impose its will on Scotland. And, recognition that the UK Union is one between sovereign states, and not, as they imply one unitary state.

    308. jimnarlene says:

      @Andrew McLean

      Well said sir.

    309. Undeadshaun says:

      For any one who hasn’t read this, here is an interesting article on how Scotland would be debt free upon leaving the uk.

      <a href="http://www.3spoken.co.uk/2014/03/scottish-independence-myths-national.html"&lt; Scottish independence Myths

    310. heedtracker says:

      The only figure that troubles me is Norway amassing a $600billion oil fund from the same resource which the Neoliberal UK can turn into a £1.5 trillion National debt with a comparable further sum in personal private debt.”

      Another tory BBC black out of info, is the fact that oil poor Norway has several trillion dollar pension funds, much like the UK. Except and ofcourse there are only 5 million Norwegians and 60 million UK-ians.

      Topics like, How does one small country like Norway build up giant pension funds with no debt and for all of its people, is probably never going to get an airing in UK tory BBC led media world.

      If you are poor in the UK, you always will be. If you’re wealthy and or very rich in the UK, you only get richer. That’s what every Westminster.gov since Snatcher Thatcher has done for the AB1’s. For poor Scots, the only way out really is to get out.

    311. Undeadshaun says:

      Sorry link didn’t work, here is the address,

      http://www.3spoken.co.uk/2014/03/scottish-independence-myths-national.html

    312. Michael says:

      Hi Wings people, can you please help raise campaign funds for Bo’ness SNP? Six of our members are jumping off the Titan crane on Sunday to help boost funds ahead of the next indyref. Please give what you can. Thanks. https://crowdfunding.justgiving.com/BonessHub?utm_campaign=projectpage-share-owner&utm_content=BonessHub&utm_medium=Yimbyprojectpage&utm_source=Facebook&utm_term=b6XbEz69y

    313. Brian Doonthetoon says:

      Hi majestic12.

      Re: badges. You’re right enough. Good job we’ve only made a handful. Design will be changed. Ta.

    314. Liz g says:

      Bob Mack @ 9.52
      Just been reading it and one thing I can see about halfway down,the bit about the power’s of the “New” UK parliament,most definitely is Not the same for Scotland.

      It states that the UK parliament’s Sovereign in all things.
      That would be us handing over the sovereign rights that were never given over, 300 odd years ago.

      Sneaky Basturt’s dae they really think we would not notice.

      As if that wisnay enough it’s also sayin that the new arrangement will put the Supreme Court in absolute charge.

      We haven’t even had a chance to test the current Supreme Court
      legitimacy,if The Court Of Session was to be tested against it.
      Came close once as far as I understand but the Supreme Court backed down.
      Now they are actually suggesting we vote to make Scotland’s legal system also subservient to London.

      Then we get part’s of the 1998 devolution act would need to be repealed…. I mean come on the paltry powers we have are too hard won to just give away.
      Definitely not for me either.
      In fact I think it’s pretty insulting to the Scot’s and there are a lot of us,who have spent the last few years brushing up on this kind of stuff,that they remain so ignorant of how politically aware we actually are.
      Did they really think half the country wouldn’t notice?

      Do they really believe after all the time and effort it’s taken to get rid of the original Act of Union we would sign up to another one anyway?

      Beggars belief.

    315. galamcennalath says:

      Mundell … “I certainly don’t think it’s possible for Scotland to remain within the EU and the rest of the UK to be outwith the EU. I think that is fanciful.”

      Fair enough. We all agree then. Indy is the only way forward.

      I hope after the May / Sturgeon meeting today that becomes clear.

      The fence sitters and ‘middle wayers’ need to choose – ultra right Brexit UK, or Indy.

    316. heedtracker says:

      Nice study of how UKOK nationalist propaganda works. Tory BBC led media SNP coverage, even less than “other.” These last weeks should make the study easier as UK media coverage is less than zero, of the SNP.

      https://blog.lboro.ac.uk/crcc/eu-referendum/media-coverage-eu-referendum-report-4/#parties

      But another display of how rancid The Graun poops all over Scottish democracy today

      “In a message aimed at the Scottish people, the prime minister promised her government would “always be on your side”.

      “Every decision we take, every policy we take forward, we will stand up for you and your family – not the rich, the mighty or the powerful. That’s because I believe in a union, not just between the nations of the United Kingdom, but between all of our citizens,” she said.”

      Always by your side, looting your assets, dragging you off to wars, dumping nukes, reneging on every last The Vow promise, reneging on every last election pledge…you can do this all UKOK day really.

    317. Breeks says:

      Just picking up from a Tweet on Rev’s Twitter. Condolences to France of course, but don’t forget the 300 killed in Baghdad last week.

      I’m not sure it’s as simple as France’s colonial history, although I’m sure it must be a big contributing factor. There is bestial cunning to these attacks, but limited sophistication…. So far.

      ISIS seems motivated to pick at any scab which agitates jihad in the West and provokes outrage and invites retaliation. Jihad isn’t the victory Muslim extremists are seeking, Jihad is the battle itself, the struggle, not the result. Area’s where there is residual tension between Muslims and non Muslims are highest risk, more so I think than chequered colonial history.

      It was mind numbingly stupid for those English football fans to be chanting provocative threats about ISIS in Marseille. Go ahead, agitate Muslim extremism in a French port across the Med from Algeria, and in a European country trying to keep a lid on racial tensions and backlash extremism in the wake of its capital city being attacked. You are idiot pawns doing exactly what the extremist Jihadi’s want you to do. Brain dead arseholes every fecking one of you.

      Sometimes I really do wonder what ISIS will make of the far right resurgence in England and increased intolerance towards foreigners. I feel sure ISIS will see in this as progress in their struggle for global jihad, and an emerging flashpoint where outrage will stoke and spread the conflagration of hatred which already burns in their own countries. France burns, now England smoulders…

      London beware. Be alert MI5. Atrocity may be heading your way.

      Are you watching Tony Blair? How infantile and transparent does your excuse about Sadam’s WMD’s look now in retrospect? Still an act of good faith? Good faith is paying a bricklayer up front before he’s finished building your wall, or arranging to meet someone and trusting they’re going to turn up. It’s about trusting your boss to sort it if there’s a hiccup in your wage packet, or letting somebody test drive your car when you’re trying to sell it. That’s what good faith is. It’s not a good enough reason to start a war you cannot finish when you know your opponents seek war for war’s sake. That’s not good faith. That is criminally reckless stupidity and all of us are now paying the price.

    318. Valerie says:

      David Davis, showing this morning, what an amazing diplomatic negotiator he will be, as well as deluded.
      _____________________

      Davis said Article 50 should not be triggered immediately in case EU countries act “irrationally” and refuse tariff-free access to the European single market because the UK will not compromise on ending free movement so it can control immigration.

      Updated at 10.23am BST

    319. Valerie says:

      Wow, just clocked on Revs Twitter that Andrew Marr has tweeted that Al Harrons piece, Our Friends in Europa is essential reading.

      Rev just said, Marr will need to get ready for yoon abuse, right enough.

    320. ronnie anderson says:

      @ Valerie Rules britannia waves again. They clowns think they,re still a World Empire & so important in the World ,the World moves on without the mother of all Parliaments.

    321. heedtracker says:

      ,the World moves on without the mother of all Parliament

      As Bomber Blair and Crash Gordo slither into UKOK history to enjoy their great wealth, were either war mongering twerps ever actually asked, “why did you pick Iraq for the Bush 9/11 revenge war?” They could have picked any middle east dictatorship because all of them are dictatorships, with WMD’s too.

    322. Ian Brotherhood says:

      @ronnie anderson and all ‘the usual suspects’…

      We’ve a fortnight left to get ready for the Glasgow rally.

      Have any arrangements been made yet?

      If not, could we please start via O/T over this weekend?

    323. mike cassidy says:

      The ‘Project Fear’ book made it clear that the ‘no’ campaign deliberately targeted the ‘not sure’ voters.

      From their viewpoint, it was enough to keep them ‘not sure’.

      Fuck the facts.

      So.

      No apologies for drawing attention again to the idea that a fact-based indyref2 campaign may not be enough.

      Go to this page

      https://medium.com/@Oxford_University/eu-referendum-views-from-oxford-994df911acb6#.zd427dw37

      then scroll to the second section

      “Impact of social media on the outcome of the EU referendum”

      Here’s the link to the article about the research mentioned there.

      https://theconversation.com/nofilter-debate-brexit-campaigners-dominate-on-instagram-59933

      For example, GERS facts and figures will not matter.

      Ridiculing GERS as a basis for any argument is a better strategy.

      “GERS says Scottish whisky is an English export. Still voting no?”.

      Emotion, not fact.

    324. gordoz says:

      @galamcennalath …

      I think that’s called Confederacy, (Dont know of any examples of where it has worked for any length of time; plenty have failed).

      American Confederacy / CIS (Russia and a few satellite states)

      Do recall Scottish International football team once beating the short lived Confederation of Independent States (former soviet Union).

    325. ronnie anderson says:

      @ Ian brotherhood I left a post in O/T last night re 30th July, the place I had in mind lost they’re drinks licence, so I suggested we go to Counting House , any thoughts ?.

    326. Phil Robertson says:

      Robert Peffers says:
      14 July, 2016 at 11:26 pm
      @Phil Robertson says: 14 July, 2016 at 5:08 pm:

      “The electorate for the EU referendum was the whole of the UK.”

      Utter pish! If it is, could you enlighten us.

    327. defo says:

      heed
      Only 1 middle east country has nukes, but it must remain nameless. Iraq2, and all its resulting chaos, up to today and for decades to come only benefit 1 middle east country too.

      When the likes of Marr are calling Taranaich’s Europa article “essential reading”, it makes me feel that many in the Westminster establishment are now resigned to us gaining autonomy.
      Indyref 2 is going to be a very different affair compared to the last time.
      It will be emotionally orientated, rather than pure fear mongering. Expect a rash of BBC documentaries telling us how wonderful the Union has been for us. They’ll need to be a bit more imaginative than ‘The Great British show of Great Britishness’ though. They’ve done almost every permutation.
      The Great British w**k off ?

    328. galamcennalath says:

      gordoz says:

      “I think that’s called Confederacy”

      https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Confederation

      Personally, I want to be as disconnected from the UK as much as possible, probably retaining only free trade.

      However, this new Union deal seems to be about cementing us all into a more centralised state. It is the other direction we need to be moving IMO. I would have thought any constitutional suggestions from those wishing to maintain some sort of union would have been along the lines of confederacy.

      We all know their agenda is a Greater England with London as the centre of all important power. Scots overruled and imposed upon as and when they wish. And rules which make escape almost impossible.

    329. heedtracker says:

      Phil Robertson says:

      All Scottish regions voted Remain Phil but why were the results split up into regions, if the EU referendum was UK only?

      Don’t worry Phil, you dont answer simple questions do you, just like all drive by yoons.

    330. Lenny Hartley says:

      Breeks according to reports I heard on the radio the Nice murderer was known to Police but not the Intelligence services. Presumably he was like some of the Paris assailants radicalised in Prison. Therefore, maybe a solution to that issue can be found.

      Heard this morning that one of my friends from Arran was in Nice last night, and phoned her mum saying that she was sheltering in a cellar but had no idea what was going on. Must have been terrifying. I hope that Mr Blair and Bush rot in hell as they are responsible for these atrocities as the brainwashed who carry them out.

    331. heedtracker says:

      defo says:
      15 July, 2016 at 12:12 pm
      heed
      Only 1 middle east country has nukes, but it must remain nameless. Iraq2, and all its resulting chaos, up to today and for decades to come only benefit 1 middle east country too.

      Bush, Blair, Crash etc came after Iraq for WMD’s like chemical and biological. So it wasn’t just nukes. We know several middle east dictatorships have WMD chemical and bio weapons.

      At the time, BBC r4 Today show was on the phone to Hans Blix, UN weapons inspector. Each day in the run up to invasion, John Humphries and co would ask Blix, “have you found anything, do you think there is anything?” We know the UKOK rest.

      We’ll do rather well to shake off the arseholes that did this to humanity. Thatcher 2 will have her own new UKOK wars waiting.

    332. harry mcaye says:

      I worry about a potential terrorist attack somewhere in the UK derailing the indy movement. I shouldn’t need to say that I worry about loss of innocent life more, but I do. But should some atrocity happen, any movement from independence supporters to further the independence cause, as life goes on after all, will be seized upon by the unionist media and twitterati and we will have a fight on our hands to win hearts and minds… “We must all come together etc etc”… How many thought your average Yes supporter was an uncouth yob who spreads bile on the internet, courtsy of the Daily Mail et al?

    333. Luigi says:

      Theresa May:

      “It means we believe in the Union, the precious, precious bond between England, Scotland, Wales and Northern Ireland.”

      My precioussssssss………..

    334. gordoz says:

      @galamcennalath

      Oh its a masterplan all right. Centuries old; Around 1707 the Speaker of the English House of Commons exulted, “We have catch’d Scotland and will bind her fast.

      http://punditwire.com/2014/09/08/we-have-catchd-scotland/

      They’re still at with the Tories and always will be until they’re telt tae GTF once & for all.

    335. defo says:

      heed
      Beg to differ mate, but you may be right about others having WMD.
      WMD story in Iraq was for western public consumption only.
      BTW We sold Saddam the chemicals that he used in the Iran war, and on Halabja.

    336. cirsium says:

      @Luigi, 12.30

      my precious……

      That resonated with me as well. Talk about “and in the darkness bind them”.

    337. K1 says:

      Please spread far and wide, I’ll be posting this intermittently over the next few days on Wings.

      Trident:

      On Monday 18 July the House of Commons will vote on the plan to renew the Trident nuclear weapon system. The proposal is that nuclear weapons should be based in Scotland for the next 50 years. Trident renewal would cost over £200 billion. Almost all of Scotland’s 59 MPs are expected to vote against the plan. Despite this, the proposal is likely to be agreed.

      Demonstrations will take place across Scotland on Saturday 16 July (most of them at 12 noon). Please come along to show that we are opposed to Trident.

      Below is a list of events:

      Aberdeen
      12 noon St Nicolas Square, outside Marks & Spencers
      Organised by Aberdeen CND
      Facebook event

      Ayr
      12 noon Cafe Nero
      Organised by Ayrshire CND
      Facebook event

      Biggar
      12 noon Corn Exchange
      Organised by South Lanarkshire Greens
      Facebook event

      Clydebank
      11 am Chalmers St, Clydebank
      Organised by Clydebank CND
      Facebook event

      Cromarty
      12 noon Cromarty Harbour

      Dumbarton
      12 noon Town Centre

      Dumfries
      12 noon Fountain, High St

      Dundee
      12 noon Albert Square
      Organised by Dundee CND
      Facebook event

      East Kilbride
      12 noon Bus Station

      Edinburgh
      12 noon The Mound (also outside Quaker Meeting House and Yes Hub, Liberton Dams)
      Organised Edinburgh CND

      Glasgow
      12 noon Donald Dewar Statue, Buchanan St
      Organised by Glasgow CND
      Facebook event

      Hamilton
      12 noon the Top Cross
      Organised by Justice & Peace

      Kelty
      12 noon Main Street
      Facebook event

      Kilmarnock
      12 noon The Cross
      Organised by Ayrshire Greens
      Facebook event

      Largs
      12 noon Main St

      Linlighgow
      12 noon The Vennel

      Melrose
      12 noon Market Square

      Paisley
      12 noon The Cross
      Organised by Renfrewshire CND

      Penicuik
      12 noon End of Precinct

      Stirling
      12 noon King St

      Ullapool
      1145 am The Clock, Quay St

      Wick
      12 noon outside Wetherspoons

      These events are coordinated by the Scrap Trident Coalition.

    338. Phil Robertson says:

      heedtracker says:
      15 July, 2016 at 12:13 pm
      Phil Robertson says:

      All Scottish regions voted Remain Phil but why were the results split up into regions, if the EU referendum was UK only?

      The announcement of the results reflects how (and where) the votes were counted. Nevertheless, the result was determined by the overall total across the UK.

      Simples!

    339. Thepnr says:

      @Phil Robertson

      Why Phil? Just explain why a Theresa May led cabinet to lead us is preferable to a government chosen by Scots to lead us.

      I await your response knowing fine well you will never respond.

    340. Rock says:

      liz g,

      “Rock
      Don’t think the experts looking at all the possible theoretical ways to stay in both Union’s it as waste of time and money at all.”

      There are NO possible theoretical ways except ONE: Independence.

      That is called Hobson’s choice.

      You don’t need “experts” to tell you the answer.

      As the Rev. Stuart Campbell has written in his next article:

      “Because the cold, hard, inescapable truth is that Scotland is going to have to choose a Union, and it’s going to have to do it pretty soon.”

    341. Papko says:

      Thepnr says:

      Why Phil? Just explain why a Theresa May led cabinet to lead us is preferable to a government chosen by Scots to lead us.

      I await your response knowing fine well you will never respond.

      Because we had a vote on this in 2014 and 2 million people in Scotland decided they did not mind sharing a Parliament with the other peoples of the UK.



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