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The tantrums of fantasists

Posted on July 15, 2016 by

If there haven’t been as many posts on this site as people might expect at a time of such incredible political turmoil, it’s because Wings isn’t at heart a commentary blog. We don’t do a lot of flat-out opinion pieces, tending to concern ourselves more with measurable, empirical facts, and since nobody knows anything about anything at the moment, we haven’t had all that much useful to say.

But the closest thing there is right now to a certainty is that sometime quite soon, Unionist politicians in Scotland are going to have to grow up and deal with this:


And their problem is that there’s no possible way to.

Every party in the Scottish Parliament backed a Remain vote, and every council area in Scotland voted that way. (The fact that the 38% of Scots who voted Leave are essentially unrepresented in the Parliament in that regard is a genuine problem about which little can be done.) Neither Kezia Dugdale nor Ruth Davidson nor Willie Rennie wants Scotland to find itself outside the EU.

Unfortuately for them, if it stays in the UK then it’s going to.





The harsh truth that there is no way Westminster will ever allow Scotland to remain in the EU while the rest of the UK leaves is one that Unionists are still massively in denial about.

Dugdale can say “But I don’t want to choose!” as much as she likes. Ruth Davidson can tell the Guardian “I expect early engagement with the incoming prime minister on that subject as we look to maintain Scotland’s EU status, in line with the democratic wishes of the people of Scotland” until she’s even bluer in the face than usual.

The Lib Dems can “pledge to keep Britain in the EU after next election” if they want, ignoring everyone’s laughter, and Owen Smith can indulge his mad twin delusions of (a) becoming Labour leader and (b) Labour winning an election and holding a second EU referendum in 2020, but it’ll be far too late by then.


It’s not just MPs who’ve misplaced their marbles. A cross-party group of doddering old Lords have given themselves the grand title of the Constitutional Reform Group and proposed a whole new Act Of Union in an attempt to square the circle.


But their draft bill, published yesterday, is an act of drivelling madness. It proposes a “federal” UK with four separate national Parliaments in addition to a reduced central Westminster controlling a set of shared powers. But among the powers it plans to reserve are, um, membership of the EU, foreign relations and immigration.





…in other words, all of the things Scotland wants to take control of in order to stop itself being dragged out of the EU against its will in the first place.

The CRG’s draft bill is so jaw-droppingly clueless and detached from reality in terms of its supposed aims that the only way it could have been any stupider would have been if it had also proposed to actually remove powers, for example by taking back control of income tax from Holyrood to London. Which, er, it does, on page 26.

But wait! All is well! The new Prime Minister is on her way to Scotland, in her first full day of work since forming her Cabinet, to assuage everyone’s fears, soothe feelings and bond us all together more strongly than ever before!


But her “offer” is clear: shut up and eat your cereal.

“I believe with all my heart in the United Kingdom — the precious bond between England, Scotland, Wales and Northern Ireland. This visit to Scotland is my first as prime minister and I’m coming here to show my commitment to preserving this special union that has endured for centuries.

That’s because I believe in a union, not just between the nations of the United Kingdom, but between all of our citizens. Whether it’s reforming the economy or strengthening our society, we are going to build a better Britain and a nation that works for everyone — not just the privileged few.”

Because the new Chancellor had already explained what that meant:

“The best future for Scotland is inside the United Kingdom economy.

Let’s make this United Kingdom economy work for all of us and let’s negotiate with the European Union, from outside the European Union, a relationship which works for Britain and works for Europe so we can have as close a relationship in trade and commerce as we possibly can while being outside the European Union — as the British people have determined we should be.

However we voted, we are part of the United Kingdom and we have democratic decisions made across the United Kingdom. We will now implement the decision that the people of the United Kingdom collectively have made to leave the European Union.


Unionists in Scotland are flapping in a panic, stalling for time in the desperate hope that some unknown miracle will save them from a day of reckoning that now cannot be avoided.

Perhaps there’ll somehow be a Brexit deal that retains access to the single market while not accepting freedom of movement. Perhaps the UK can delay invoking Article 50 for so long that the Scottish electorate will finally notice that the SNP are BAD, and that Jackie Baillie or Adam Tomkins are the future of governance. Perhaps a massive UKIP surge will shift Scottish opinion in favour of Brexit.

(It’s undoubtedly the case that a non-trivial number of 2014 Yes voters oppose EU membership. But the simple arithmetic suggests that they’re outnumbered by No voters who want to stay – the margin of No’s victory in the indyref was less than half the size of Remain’s. And our gut feeling is that most Yes voters care more about independence than being in the EU if push comes to shove.)

Or, more likely than any of those, perhaps an asteroid will crash out of the sky and end all human life before Dugdale, Davidson and whatsisname have to face up to a decision that so far they’ve shown no sign of having the emotional maturity to handle.


Because the cold, hard, inescapable truth is that Scotland is going to have to choose a Union, and pretty soon at that. The opposition leaders and media can stamp their feet and hurl toys out of their prams, but Scotland’s third constitutional referendum of the 21st Century is coming, and everyone’s going to have to pick a side.

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  1. 15 07 16 12:56

    The tantrums of fantasists | speymouth

  2. 15 07 16 18:40

    Every step YOU take … the boot will now be on the other foot | 's Trooth

607 to “The tantrums of fantasists”

  1. Macandroid says:

    They are shit scared of losing our resources!

  2. Meg merrilees says:

    Brilliant article Stu.

    Third time lucky… Game on!

  3. handclapping says:

    Fourth; AV was 2011

  4. Tackety Beets says:

    I openly admit here and elsewhere I am EU Sceptic.

    I am happy that I voted Remain for obvious reasons as now unfolds.

    For those who decided to VOTE OUT of EU , may I remind you that we have only experienced EU under WM

    iScotland in EU may well be totally dif …… better.

  5. Macart says:

    Great dissection Rev and couldn’t agree more.

    So many unknowns and permutations, but one inescapable fact remains.

    Scotland didn’t vote for a Norway option or indeed any other option but full fat participation in the EU. May cannot offer anything other than Norway lite at best and her chancellor has pretty much laid down the law what continued ‘partnership’ in the UK means.

    To put it crudely, time for Scottish politicians to shit or get off the pot.

  6. Mark Russell says:

    Oh to be a fly on the wall in Bute House today…

  7. HeehawBaws says:

    Isn’t the draft Union Bill just the Vow 2 on whiter paper?

  8. Dan Huil says:

    We can expect more britnat lies, more britnat Project Fear and more britnat false promises. It’s all they have.

  9. Chitterinlicht says:

    Could not agree more.

    Time for oppostion to choose a Union and let people know where they stand.

    My own feeling is that it is now or never for independence.

    What scares me is that Yes voting in laws dont want another referendum and think SNP should just ‘give it a rest’!

    I was speechless.

  10. call me dave says:

    That’s set it all out quite nicely.

    It will be confirmed later when May and Sturgeon finish their tea in Bute House.

    SNP’s Stephen Gethins: Independence ‘easiest way to keep Scotland in European Union’

  11. Walter Scott says:

    In the papers today Mundell says a 2nd referendum in Scotland will be “toxic and divisive” If anyone can guarantee this will come to pass it’s surely Mundell & Davidson who will be ramping up the toxicity & divisiveness. Mundell’s claim is almost a statement of fact that his side’s tactics are being honed to include stirring up toxic hatred no matter the repercussions. Kezia Dugdale should do something positive for once and back a vote for independence. The party’s over for Labour in Scotland & the UK as a whole & the Tories will be in power for a generation (or more)
    One of the most striking things about brexit & subsequent Tory realignment & appointments is how very English the whole thing is.

  12. Training Day says:

    As ever, an excellent summary of the situation.

    Philip Hammond’s statement translated: The best future for Scotland is shoring up the English economy.

  13. Luigi says:

    Yoon denial on steroids. They just don’t want to accept that everything has changed. We are in unchartered waters for sure. The BREXIT map which shows Scotland completely at odds with England and Wales, has made an earth-shattering impact on UK politics. This is a full-blown constitutional crisis unfolding.

    For all the bluster, WM seems very reluctant to push the Article 50 button. Davis’s indication of leave by December 2018 suggests that they will try and delay pushing the button until December 2016 – if Europe lets them! All this dilly dallying suits us fine, support for indy will continue to grow and we should have enough polling information by the end of the year to see if Scotland has been sufficiently outraged by BREXIT to go for indy this time. My gut felling is that it has, but it will take a few months for it to sink in just how bad BREXIT s going to be for all of us.

    So, if they hold off envoking Article 50 until December fine, just fine. Bloody perfect, actually. 🙂

  14. fionan says:

    Quite right Stu!
    I was not at all sure about voting remain, still amn’t convinced re EU membership. But independence is much more important to me and I’m sure, many others like me, so EU or no EU, I would still vote YES in indyref2.

    I would vote YES even if other issues arose which I opposed, because none of us will have the means to implement any of our wishes/hopes/dreams until we have control over our own future. We will only have control when we have independence.

  15. galamcennalath says:

    Good article. Make your mind up time is nigh for pro EU Unionists.

    The ideal way to enter IndyRef2 campaigning is with Lab and LibDems either soft Yes or neutral.

    Then the lines are drawn as they should be …. most of Scotland in one corner … right wing isolationist xenophobic Greater Englanders in the other corner.

  16. Macca73 says:

    I love it when you post like this Rev. Stu. It gets me pumped to face the worst of the unionists with the truth, with this lot who think of us as Scots as the lowest of the Low.

    This for me is what utterly appalls me about the UK Government at the moment. It’s ability to still have that “England expects” you to just blindly follow us because that’s that you deserve! NO

    Not a chance

  17. JaceF says:

    Hard to see how the Scottish Unionists won’t come across as phimosis personified, a tight unwelcomed band of misery that can only restrict growth and ambition.

  18. What the people of Scotland are going to have to understand is the democratic deficit they suffer from,
    because as long as they remain part of the UK.

    Their votes count for nothing, they have no real say in the decisions made at Westminster, they don’t decide on the outcome of Westminster elections.

    In regard to my last point it always amazed me how easily people in Scotland fell for the Labour line at general elections that they had to vote Labour to either prevent the election of a Tory Government or to get the Tories out.

    And after the election what did they end up with a Tory Government!

  19. Grouse Beater says:

    Timely article, but despite its litany of wacky ideas the Federalist Group had the tacit approval of Cameron’s administration, and May’s latest reincarnation of far-right ideology, further right than Thatcher, will embrace it too.

    Yes, it’s a lunatic concoction composed by people who should be locked up for briefing against democratic principles.

    Yet that’s the illusory solution to keep everybody in line talking of a ‘better future’, until the next election when Tories hope they get a comprehensive majority and can quietly shelf any ideas of constitutional change. It can go hand-in-hand with a the propaganda of a determination to keep trade with Europe but block Johnny Foreigner from our shores.

    Federalism is Vow 2: more everyday domestic powers, but a lot fewer civil rights, and no international power for Scotland outside of tourism.

    Tories cannot impose unity by the gun these days so they are forced to make false promise, to gerrymander, and lie. They’ll rearrange the constitutional powers ensuring the main ones, the important ones, remain with Westminster.

    EU membership will get dropped as will embarrassingly out-of-date messages. It only needs official blessing, a commission, lots of fine tuning, and a few million pounds of public money to draw up the report.

    Given a reason to delay the inevitable, Labour’s Scottish group backed by Corbyn will recommend we wait until the federal constitution is drawn up for debate.

    If anybody want to know who are the chief proponents, here they are:

  20. gordoz says:


    About your inlaws … I hae ma doots if they’re saying that !


  21. peter says:

    They are even more scared of removing all them nukes. where and on who’s doorstep will they put them…..

  22. Hamish100 says:

    The tories, UKIP and some right wing labour could be best described as a fifth column in Scotland.

    ie ” it is any group of people who undermine a larger group—such as a nation ..usually in favour another group or nation. The activities of a fifth column can be overt or clandestine. Forces gathered in secret can mobilize openly to assist an attack. This term is also extended to organized actions by the state and can include acts of disinformation,(a certain Lib Dem MP comes to mind and certain newspapers and journalists and bloggers and tv staff…….)

    Of course the Westminster elite apply the term to “the jocks, the wingers, ….”

  23. Auld Rock says:

    Don’t the daft old duffers realise that if they want a Federal UK then this can only ever be acieved if there were devolved ‘Regional Govts’ in England, NE, NW, East Midlands etc. Even this is doubtful if it would work but England as a whole will NEVER, EVER WORK

    Auld Rock

  24. bjsalba says:

    What concerns me is how little the reasonably educated average voter understands about the EU and how little of EU matters the BUM covers. Politicians and EU officials at press conferences in press releases are covered by Canadian, Australian and USA media more than they are here.

    Even people who voted Remain think there is a vast unelected bureaucracy in Brussels that votes on our legislation. Moreover, many of them haven’t a clue about the difference between the the EU and the EctHR.

    The BUM makes sure of that.

    The big question is how do we change the situation?

  25. Grouse Beater says:

    Incidentally, the meeting of May with Sturgeon is scheduled to last 45 minutes. Call it one hour.

    The one following with ace supporter Ruthie has no time limit.

    It conveys precisely how much dear England respects Scotland’s rightful ambitions.

  26. Baldeagle58 says:

    Despite all their posturing, they don’t care about the people of Scotland.
    Only Scotlands resources and somewhere to store the rUKs WMDs are what interest them!
    Sooner we’re out of this ‘Union’ for good the better!

  27. Morag says:

    I was talking to a Yes activist who is also extremely anti-EU. And believe me, he really is vehemently anti-EU. However he’s extremely clear that he’ll still vote Yes in indyref2.

    His reasons are multiple. One is that he’s over seventy and he says that if the young people want to be part of the EU he doesn’t feel he should stop them. The other is that he sees clearly that if we stay with the UK now, we’ll never get free. This really is last chance saloon. On the other hand an independent Scotland might possibly in the future decide for itself to leave the EU.

    I don’t see us voting to leave the EU in the foreseeable future, but he’s right in principle. Scotland’s future in Scotland’s hands and all that.

    Another point I made to him is that SNP policy has been “independence in Europe” for over 25 years. He knew that. He knew that a Yes vote in 2014 would result in Scotland being an EU member in her own right, and he was OK with that. I don’t know if he entirely took that on board, perhaps he was hoping that the Rajoy threats were real, but it’s a fair point.

    I don’t think there will be a huge haemorrhage of pro-indy voters voting to keep the UK union just to get out of the EU. But we need some more opinion polls soon.

    With horrible things like the Nice attacks happening, why would anyone want to cut ourselves off from our friends and allies in Europe? Also, I do worry that the heightened xenophobia is England is going to make England an even bigger target for the terrorists. I really don’t want to be dragged into that.

  28. Fergus Green says:

    There will be a referendum and the choice will be Yes vs No.

    Or to put it another way, Europe vs the Tories.

    Time to get off the fence Kez.

  29. Dr Jim says:

    Perhaps those folk who aren’t keen on the EU should reflect on the fact thet Scotland has never been represented by Scottish ministers in the EU because the UK Government refused to allow such representation and should ask themselves what the UKs motives were for that

    If one MEP Alyn Smith can generate so much affection and warmth for Scotland by just a few words what could our own elected Ministers achieve

    As has been said on many occasions David Cameron himself was not considered Mr popularity amongst our european cousins and the UK as an entity was never really enthusiastic about sharing so much as a croissant with our neighbours let alone decision making

    The Euro sceptics in Scotland must be made aware of the fact that “England” didnae really like the “Gerries and the “Frogs” or any other Furriners who refused to speak English making ruling over them more difficult for the Imperial British Empire to dominate them as it was born to do

    Whereas WE in wee Scotland are more than happy to have a natter with anybody over a beer or a cup of that stuff they call coffee in France
    See we’d drink it coz we’re polite, while we’re selling them the idea of pouring a wee dram into it to make it Scottish tasting

    And that’s how you do diplomacy, get them drunk and they’ll sign anything

    Now we’re a class act at that

  30. Cuilean says:

    Excellent piece, Stu, and getting right to the nub of things,as usual.Pick a Union, Yoons.

    PS I was depressed at some (elderly) family members, who voted OUT on 23 June 2016. I’ve had plenty of arguments with them before and after 23 June 2016, which were heated, to say the least. BUT they all say that come IndyRef2, they are voting YES (again). They’d rather Scotland be Indy in EU, than remain part of a UK out of EU.

    So,when you add those ‘OUT’votes, to the NO votes from 2014 who will now vote YES in Indy2, the chances are, we will be indy by circa 2021.

  31. Hoss Mackintosh says:

    … and the best thing about Brexit is that for Indyref2 a 52% Yes vote will be final.

    No need for huge majority independence vote of ~60% or higher to justify leaving the UK anymore.

    Just a couple of % will do. 🙂

  32. Thepnr says:

    Thanks for that Rev.

    Looks like the Better Together trump card next time around will be Vow2 which when looking at what the distinguished gentlemen are proffering appeals as much as Vow1 did. Totally useless.

    Beware Greeks bearing gifts, only Independence will allow Scotland to prosper, there is no halfway house.

    Scotland is either in the EU with a seat at the table or in the UK with eternal Tory rule. That’s the real choice being offered.

  33. manandboy says:

    The Tories will attempt to come up with a new version of The Vow with which to tie up the Independence process until the steam has been taken out of Brexit.

  34. schrodingers cat says:

    we should have enough polling information by the end of the year to see if Scotland has been sufficiently outraged by BREXIT to go for indy this time. My gut felling is that it has, but it will take a few months for it to sink in

    spot on, the effect of the rebirth of thatcher will also swing people to yes, i have seen a few conversions on social media already, thing is, all polls are no longer public….

    rev, I said this before the euref that rennie, ruthie and dugdale would no longer be able to avoid the question, uk or eu. since the result, thats exactly what all 3 have done,they are taking nicola’s line of negotiating a deal for scotland as a means of avoiding the question
    hammonds announcement yesterday removed everyones ability to do this, including nicola.

    so what happens now?
    1. the indyref2 bill in holyrood
    this will pass, no question, even with opposition from the unionists, but might be still born if PO rules it is illegal

    2. unionists, ie tompkins, say they wont block it with legal action. that doesnt mean westminster wont.

    3. I dont think WM will allow indyref2 to proceed if they think they will lose, but if they do, they could still try to refuse to accept result, ie incourage unionists not to participate etc, (like madrid did in catalunia) ask unionists controlled councils not to run polling stations etc (if indyref2 is after may2017 LE then this issue will be lessened.

    either way, all scottish politicians have been trying to avoid this confrontation, including nicola, but the time is coming when all must piss on the pot or get off.

    I think nicola should do everything to avoid this confrontation for at least 3-4 months so that we can see how the polls are turning.

    I believe we are very close now, support for yes is rising. take a deep breath folks, we are about to jump, its only a matter of timing.

    suggestion, time to remove the snp badges and dig out the yes badges, and get down to your local yes/ric/wfi meetings. use this period to launch and organise your groups, it will give us a head start on bt2

  35. Artyhetty says:

    Good to read. The yoons are having to face facts, but no matter they will attempt to pull the wool over gullible, non Wings readers’ eyes.

    Read about Protocol 7, article 1, last night, regarding the right to remain in an EU country when you go to live there, or come to live in UKok! The only ones who delayed, dithered and bullshitted since 1984, then never signed it? Easy to guess.

    No wonder other EU states are livid right now. Brits can stay in Spain, or wherever, but the same does not apply to EU nationals coming to the UK, unless they have lived here for 5 years. All connected to the ECHR, oh dear when that is scrapped it’s a free for all for TM.

    We better get out before they do scrap human rights.

  36. theMadMurph says:

    @JaceF – 12.35

    Phimosis! Brilliant. Best to cut loose then! For some of the cringers a rusty butter knife should be the tool of choice!

  37. heedtracker says:

    No ref 2 says Thatcher 2. So says BBC r4 lunchtime news, BBC Scotland ligger neatly wraps Sturgeon into English rule with “Sturgeon will be pleased with new PM May giving Scotland recognition so early in her new rein”

    But, Pacific Quay creep says May wont agree to any Brexit deal without Sturgeon’s OK, which must be one of the sleaziest lies this one crew of UKOK BBC liggers have come up with for about an hour.

  38. Michael says:

    Hi Wings people, this is a great discussion and sorry to interrupt but please can you support Bo’ness branch of the SNP with a small donation? Thanks

  39. Takeour blueback says:

    It really takes the biscuit when the Unionists can’t really choose which Union – You’re a feckin Unionist, if you’re past voting age you should know FFS!


  40. Les Wilson says:

    Yes, the Dug will need to chew her fingers and find enlightenment,
    Indy IS the ONLY way to assure Scotland is in the EU.
    Not to support it openly will still find what is left of Slab members to drift to yes. Not all of course but a good number I suspect. They know life will only be worse if they do not. But so does she.

    So Kez, decisions decisions,…..
    But it is easy really, just vote for your people’s wishes not Westminsters.

  41. Doug Daniel says:

    Excellent stuff.

    Folk have always wanted to have their cake and eat it. Devolution personified this, and the “best of both worlds” slogan during the IndyRef laid it out in black and white. The unionist argument that we had to stay together because they cared as much about the folk in Liverpool as the folk in Glasgow was always contradicted by the fact they were less keen on sharing the same health and education systems as the likes of Liverpool and Newcastle.

    But devolution was never sustainable. There was always going to come a point where Scotland had to pick a side. 50-60% of the population would pick Scotland or the UK regardless of any other factors, but for the rest, 2014 didn’t represent that point yet. It was still possible to convince yourself that the having and eating of cake were simultaneously possible. All of us on this site knew that it was coming, but if people can put off making a decision, they’ll do so.

    Not any more. Decision time is now completely inescapable. And that’s why independence was always inevitable, or at least inevitable as long as the UK kept acting like the UK always does (which was inevitable).

    Kezia & Co can prevaricate as much as they like, but a second referendum is coming, and they’re going to have to pick a side. This time, it won’t be possible to vote No while claiming to be putting Scotland’s interests first. It certainly won’t be possible to be doing it while claiming to be an “internationalist”, because it will be an unequivocal vote to be part of a tiny, insular, inward-looking island state, rather than being part of “something bigger”, to use their own phrase.

    But it’s going to be so much fun watching them try.

  42. defo says:

    Normally a glass half empty type, but the EU ‘we’ decided to leave isn’t long for this world. A scaled back ‘common market’ is the logical outcome of the systemic and social problems the EU is facing today.
    Nexit, Frexit etc rumbling under.
    Border fences almost right across the continent. Economic migrant crisis (crisis it is)which isn’t going away this half of the century. Disparate economies.

    The “end to ever closer political union”.

    Those Yessers, and potential ones who fear the EU as it is (and the direction the European elites wanted us headed in), need to be reassured it isn’t the EU of the future.

  43. Fergus Green says:

    The next Yes campaign needs to make it clear that voting Yes means staying in the EU (until the Scottish people vote otherwise in a referendum) and keeping the pound (until the Scottish people vote otherwise in a referendum).

    The immediate question is Europe or the Tories.

    Subsequent choices can be made when the time is right by the citizens of Scotland, living in Scotland and governed by a Scottish government of their choosing.

  44. Lochside says:

    Good article Rev.It is a binary issue: go with little Britain…a hotchpot of ruritanian tossers and cretinous racists still having the rules waived over our servile heads or join the rest if Europe as an equal amongst civilised nations.

    I’m still European sceptic btw,but we will be able long term to take a view that suits ourselves ..not be dragged about and out of company like a tartan ragdoll in the hands of ugly twins Bozo and Gove.

  45. Orri says:

    The thing is we had months, if not years, of debate regarding how important being part of the EU was to Scotland I not the UK as a whole. We even got the various alternate scenarios such as Norway.

    Greenland and the precedents of not having the entire member state territory being included in the EU were also brought up as was the fact that the UK is already an example of that.

    We’ve been there seen it and done it. As have the unionists in Scotland. That’s why none of their leaders came out against EU membership. It’s also why we think the English and Welsh were fucking insane to fall for the bullshit spouted by the Brexit bunch.

  46. Takeour blueback says:

    @ Cuilean @ 1:25pm

    I forgot about that, there were a lot of Yes voters who voted Out because of the “it would mess them up and force another indyref” (Well that was some people’s perception of the EU ref).

    If you take that strategical vote out, there were probably more than 62% truely in favour of remain. Retaining the EU membership may well be a swing enough to get over the Indyref2 line! Encouraging!!

  47. Sunniva says:

    Stu, you say you are not a commentary blog, and that’s fine. But I do think that the forensic skills you demonstrate so well here in unpicking the lies that are in the media about Scotland and the SNP, could equally very usefully be applied to the lies they tell about the EU.

    This would enable us to have a better bunch of arguments to fight the unionists with, as we would have a clearer idea of where Scotland’s interests might be being sacrificed by Brexit.

    And also where our opportunities lie, if we choose EU over UK. I think there must be huge business opportunities in an indy Scotland to move into the space vacated by England and Wales.

    Personally I voted Remain more out of hope than anything else, as it seemed the least worst option, and infinitely preferable to being trapped on an island with a bunch of Tory lunatics in the saddle for the next 30 years.

  48. Valerie says:

    Yup, good review of the nonsense to date, Rev.

    I have no doubt May and Co have to get on that world stage, and brag and insult everyone, whilst demanding free trade, and accepting no one at the Border.

    Whilst they are doing that, we need to get everything back into gear, reinforce the benefits of the EU, to those who appear uneducated, and ensure everyone sees this as the golden opportunity.

    If we don’t leave. Years of an economically dead union, talent drain, resources drain, nil investment.

    For those that say, we can have lots of referenda, sure you can. However, try selling Scotland as a wasteland in a few years, as opposed to today’s vibrant, forward looking, smart, open, investment worthy country.

  49. Vronsky says:

    “tending to concern ourselves more with measurable, empirical facts”

    Somewhere, in an impossibly hospitable parallel universe, all journalists do likewise.

  50. @JaceF

    Yeah, I wish I hadn’t bothered looking up that word in Wikipedia.

  51. CameronB Brodie says:

    Re. not getting the message. Perhaps they need to try another headset, as the coconut shells they are using do not appear capable of receiving radio transmission.

    Apologies to all Melanesian cultures and cults.

  52. Chitterinlicht says:


    That is exactly what my mother in law said yesterday.

    I dont waste my time making up stuff and posting it on Wings.

  53. Dan Huil says:

    So all Nicola has to do is say Scotland is not satisfied with the brexit deal done by May and May will agree to keep the so-called united kingdom in the EU. That’s what May said, aye?

  54. Breeks says:

    I can’t wait for them to trigger Article 50.

    I get the feeling both Nicola and the EU have been spending these recent weeks loading up a blunderbus of thorny issues for this pedestrian post Brexit Westminster Government which is primed and ready to coincide with triggering Article 50.

    I hope too the SNP is also packing a surprise or two for the BBC and Unionist propaganda news sheets. How the SNP tackles this problem with the media could be the defining issue of the inevitable campaign.

    I can see the Scottish government barrelling through the initial rounds of consultation, if for no other reason than they are much more switched on to the constitutional situation. We are on solid ground securing our referendum, but the real fun begins when we go head to head with the Unionist media.

    We came off second best last referendum, despite closing the gap at the gallop. This time around, there feels a lot more substance to the YES imperative, but I still have deep reservations about the power of the media to obstruct and confound the reasonable and rational debate which needs to happen.

    Nothing would make me happier than to see the BBC and UKOK media get a UDI shaped warning shot across the bows right at the outset of the campaign, leaving them in no doubt that if they skew the debate and manipulate the agenda as they did last time, they will simply render the referendum process fatally compromised, and leave the Scottish Government reluctantly obliged to affect Scotland’s independence by UDI. We might then see the compromised Indyref 2 referendum morphed from a straight YES/No referendum into a ratifing constitutional plebiscite appropriate to the rebirth of our sovereign nation.

    Strap yourselves in Mrs May and Mr Hammond, you are not in the driving seat, and you could find this a bumpy ride.

  55. Sunniva says:

    Great points Doug Daniel.

    Being a Yookay-okay can’t be argued to be internationalist when a bunch of Tory tossers want to adopt an isolationist position by forcing us out of the EU against our will.

    But as for economics – Davidson has already prepared a counter argument by saying that only 16% of our trade is with EU, and 60% with UK. Therefore our economic interests, according to Herself, are best served by remaining in the UK.

    That’s the argument we will have to unpick in the months ahead.

  56. call me dave says:

    Mrs May left the first minister’s official residence, Bute House, after about 45 minutes, following a meeting she described as “positive”.

    She said the Scottish government should be “fully engaged” in Brexit talks.

    Ms Sturgeon believes Scottish interests have been put “at risk” by the UK’s vote to leave the EU.
    The Scottish government is seeking a separate deal on relations with the EU after the Brexit vote.

    Speaking after the meeting, the prime minister said: “I’m willing to listen to options and I’ve been very clear with the first minister today that I want the Scottish government to be fully engaged in our discussion.
    “I have already said that I won’t be triggering Article 50 until I think that we have a UK approach and objectives for negotiations – I think it is important that we establish that before we trigger Article 50.”

    Earlier, she said her visit to Scotland demonstrated her commitment to “preserving this special union that has endured for centuries”.

  57. Democracy Reborn says:

    Unionists have already started the propaganda war for Indyref2. Look at, eg., tweets from Kenny Farquharson, David Torrance and Kevin Hague re the volume of exports that Scotland does with the U.K. compared with the EU.

    As in Indyref1, the No side will principally focus on economic arguments : (1) Scotland is an economic basket-case will be repeated (too wee, too poor etc); and (2) despite the loss of EU membership, the question will be posed ‘Which Union is more important?’. The answer given will be trade/exports/business with the rest of the U.K.

    The ignorance of Brexiteers regarding a ‘Norway-type’ deal is breathtaking. Norway accepts freedom of movement, it has to implement (at least some) EU laws, it pays into the EU; without having any say or seat during EU decision-making.

    Incidentally, although the Constitution Reform Group’s Act of Union Bill is a fantasy, old habits die hard. Section 7A.2 states:-

    “(5) The UK Parliament continues to exercise the authority of the Soverign Parliament of the United Kingdom.

    (6) Nothing in this Act diminishes or otherwise affects the extent of that Sovereignty.”

  58. Great article, Rev.

    The timings of both IndieRef2 and the triggering of Article 50 will be crucial but the two are, of course, connected. Scotland’s Future had an 18 month period from a Yes vote to independence. Article 50 has a maximum 24 month period to complete negotiations and then the UK is out of the EU.

    That would give us at most 6 months to initiate a campaign. If Article 50 happens in December, IndieRef2 in May would be a possibility.

    More detail here The time is now.

  59. Sinky says:

    Scot Goes Pop concerned about SNP backtracking on Indy Ref 2

    The major problem remains in persuading sceptical No voters that they would be better off with Independence and we need to have a coherent credible response to the £15 billion “black hole” deficit.

    Unionist scare stories over the Euro and customs posts are easier to answer but all of us need to engage with MSM letters pages and phone ins to correct the UKOK myths at every opportunity…. starting now not when the Referendum campaign begins.

  60. heedtracker says:

    Dan Huil says:
    15 July, 2016 at 2:01 pm
    So all Nicola has to do is say Scotland is not satisfied with the brexit deal done by May and May will agree to keep the so-called united kingdom in the EU. That’s what May said, aye?

    That’s the full on UKOK BBC attack propaganda now. No ref 2 for the sweaties, PM May to keep Scotland’s government “fully involved” with their Brexiteering. So if all goes tits up Brexit wise, UKOK freak show’s got their whipping boy’s.

    Also a bit of culture shock actually seeing any tory BBC led English media even mentioning SNP at all, considering normal black out. When’s the last time any third party SNP MP’s been on any BBC politics show?

    The fraudsters have been quite UKOK busy in their scotland region today. We’re in it up to our necks, in another country excrement.

  61. Marie Clark says:

    Sunniva, I too voted remain, mind you I did have to hold my nose,but the thought of leave was terrifying. I looked at the Brexiteers and shuddered, God help us if that lot win I thought.

    Well they did win, and what happened? They all shat themselves and ran away and left the rest of us with the mess.

    Indy ref 2 well let’s get on and win it, the thought of where Scotland will be if we don’t is too depressing to contemplate. I’m an oldie, but, the very idea of my children and grandchildren living in the mess of the UK would make you weep.

    As for that bunch of eejits with their new articles of union, they can shove that where the sun don’t shine. Do they really think that we would just go along with it. Or perhaps they mean to impose it on us. Good luck with that.

  62. K1 says:

    O/T But relevant:

    Please spread far and wide, I’ll be posting this intermittently over the next few days on Wings.


    On Monday 18 July the House of Commons will vote on the plan to renew the Trident nuclear weapon system. The proposal is that nuclear weapons should be based in Scotland for the next 50 years. Trident renewal would cost over £200 billion. Almost all of Scotland’s 59 MPs are expected to vote against the plan. Despite this, the proposal is likely to be agreed.

    Demonstrations will take place across Scotland on Saturday 16 July (most of them at 12 noon). Please come along to show that we are opposed to Trident.

    Below is a list of events:

    12 noon St Nicolas Square, outside Marks & Spencers
    Organised by Aberdeen CND
    Facebook event

    12 noon Cafe Nero
    Organised by Ayrshire CND
    Facebook event

    12 noon Corn Exchange
    Organised by South Lanarkshire Greens
    Facebook event

    11 am Chalmers St, Clydebank
    Organised by Clydebank CND
    Facebook event

    12 noon Cromarty Harbour

    12 noon Town Centre

    12 noon Fountain, High St

    12 noon Albert Square
    Organised by Dundee CND
    Facebook event

    East Kilbride
    12 noon Bus Station

    12 noon The Mound (also outside Quaker Meeting House and Yes Hub, Liberton Dams)
    Organised Edinburgh CND

    12 noon Donald Dewar Statue, Buchanan St
    Organised by Glasgow CND
    Facebook event

    12 noon the Top Cross
    Organised by Justice & Peace

    12 noon Main Street
    Facebook event

    12 noon The Cross
    Organised by Ayrshire Greens
    Facebook event

    12 noon Main St

    12 noon The Vennel

    12 noon Market Square

    12 noon The Cross
    Organised by Renfrewshire CND

    12 noon End of Precinct

    12 noon King St

    1145 am The Clock, Quay St

    12 noon outside Wetherspoons

    These events are coordinated by the Scrap Trident Coalition.

  63. Big Jock says:

    Why wait until article 50 is triggered. The innevitable result of everything is that we will lose our EU citizenship. When Scots went to the polls and voted remain. It was not to remain for bits and pieces of a business deal or ad hoc arrangements.

    We said we want things to stay as they are. Scotland must not be sucked into WM’s timetable or agenda. We are going to have to have a referendum at some point in the next two years.

    I say hang the negotiations just get on an do it for Scotland.

  64. woosie says:

    Maysie should be the subject of a complaint of wasting govt diesel by travelling to Bute House for nothing. Don’t worry; if she comes across as a “difficult woman”, she’ll leave wearing her arse for a hat!

  65. michael diamond says:

    For the love of fcuk. How much more self flagellation do we have to inflict on ourselves before we walk away? How much more will it take nawbags? .

  66. Dan Huil says:

    @heedtracker 2:09pm

    Scotland needs to dig its heals in and refuse any brexit deal which hurts Scotland [in other words: any brexit deal] thereby setting up implosion/explosion/revolution in an angry right-wing England. Either way the so-called united kingdom is finished.

  67. Macandroid says:

    @ Peter 12:59

    They will be so hard up they will seriously have to consider selling off the nukes!

  68. t nicholson says:

    didn,t the old liberal party propose a federal britain some 40 years ago,and, did not the tory and labour parties laugh it out of court? now the tories are going :federal:,a power house of the north.?( the north starts just south of carlisle).instead of going for ind2 could we not declair ind1,null and void because we did not get VAST new powers as promised!the europian court of justice might possibly agree and a order a proper ballot paper printed and no bits added on 10 before the vote.

  69. Ruglonian says:

    Thanks Stu, no one really needs more commentary or speculations when there’s nothing much happening – we’re got the inane 24 hour rolling msm of UKok for that 😉 – but we do appreciate your razor-sharp dissection of the reality facing us all!

    Hope to see the Glasgow Wingers out in force tomorrow at the Anti-Trident event (12 noon at Buchanan St Steps), I’ll be there under the YesRutherglen banner 🙂

  70. raineach says:

    What Kezia and Ruthie will not admit, perhaps even to themselves, is that to fail to make a choice is to chose and that that choice is to leave the EU

  71. Macart says:


    “I have already said that I won’t be triggering Article 50 until I think that we have a UK approach and objectives for negotiations – I think it is important that we establish that before we trigger Article 50.”

    Much as expected, May is reluctant to go near that EU negotiating table until she has Scotland’s goodies nailed down.

    Who knew?

  72. mealer says:

    I must say,I really like the new image Kez has adopted in the pictures above.A real vote winner.

  73. Derick fae Yell says:

    o/t. Total Lexit fail

    Telegraph reporting that UK to accelerate TTIP

  74. heedtracker says:

    Red tory britnats in one UKOK nutshell/tweet. How many times have the red tories voted for blue tory austerity slash and burn and abstain is just the same as voting for.

    Duncan Hothersall ?@dhothersall 15m15 minutes ago
    .@GerryHassan @NicolaSturgeon @theresamay2016 Both backed Remain, both backed Osborne tax policy, both hate the Labour Party. Lots in common

  75. Big Jock says:

    Yep Dan agree- The very phrase Brexit negotiations. Means severence in lay mans language. Severance means leaving with a package. Whatever way you dice it , it’s leaving.

    We voted to stay. We stay or we don’t stay in the UK could it be any clearer.

    There should be no half baked deal like they tried with the Irish in the 1920’s Lloyd George and con men of empire.

    We are waiting on your leadership Nicola. Tell them to do one and you will look after Scotland.

  76. michael diamond says:

    Heed tracker 2.09 pm.agree. down here in deepest englandshire, I don’t know who the snp are. Never hear any mention of them on the ebc. What other race of people on this earth would put up with this discriminatory racist shite? .only the union jocks.

  77. Graf Midgehunter says:

    Just think about it.

    There are two camps in Scotland.
    On the one YES side, the Indy camp who want independence to make their own decisions, raise taxes and spend for the good of Scotland. We don’t want subsidies or be subsidised by foreign taxpayers. We want to stand on our own two feet and survive by our own means. We want to be in Europe, trade with them. Make things work for the benefit of everyone.

    On the other NO side are the “Better Together” people who desperately want to hang on to England. They say we’re too thick to run the country, don’t work hard enough to cover our expenses and are reliant on English taxpayers to subsidise us.

    I don’t know about you but I would say that the Nos are simply benefit scroungers.

    Seemingly quite happy for English taxpayers to work hard and send cartloads of cash north of the border so that we can keep the NHS going, free education, build useless bridges and live the high life in bliss. 😉

    Are the English blind or just brainwashed? Do the not see who wants to stop them sending money to Scotland and those scroungers who are desperate to keep up the flow?

    Why do the English put up with it, when are they going to say stop and join up with the SNP to ditch the “Better Togethers” who are quite happy to plunder England’s gracious resources?

    Oh deary, deary me..! 🙂

  78. DerekM says:

    Aye the Scottish yoons have been shafted by their English buddies all their wee lies about federalism and special deals shot down in flames.

    And here we have a couple of englanders once again saying no to Scotland do as you are told Scotland,you are not allowed out to play with those rough EU guys,we will decide your fate.

    As for this “new act of union” just when were we Scots getting a chance of any input into this,so basically without our input they think they can re-write the act of union.

    Show me your act of union tory lord scumbags and your GP will have to extract it from your arse.

    Here is my new act of union England will pay for all the oil it stole from Scotland.

    The Bank of England will be renamed the Scottish central bank,and will control all printing of sterling and move to Edinburgh

    The civil list will immediatly stop buggers have enough money.

    The HoL will be sacked and all lobbiests removed from influence.

    The UK parliament moves to Scotland each nation will have the same number of seats except England who will have 5 less.

    Full devolution for each member of the UK a barnett type formula for England and a UK parliament set budget until such times they can be trusted to look after themselves and pay off the massive debt they have accumulated under their tenancy of the UK.

    All English goods will be transported into Scotland before being exported under UK products.

    Trident moved to 20 miles outside London.

    And no but but buts if you want us to remain in the UK union then we want control cause frankly you are shit at it and after 300 years i think its our turn for the next 300 only fair dont you think.

    Sign it or its independence yoons.

  79. Dave McEwan Hill says:

    Meant to put that up here and not on a previous post.

    Nice wee joke from Andra Neil on telly last night.
    Apparently when Teresa May wrote F Off on the list of MPs in front of her she didn’t mean “Foreign Office”

  80. Marcia says:

    Is there someone with the same name as Theresa May in Scotland? We can get her to send a letter to Europe and trigger Article 50 and put Westminster in the soup.

  81. schrodingers cat says:

    interesting that hammond has delayed pushing the brexit button because he is afraid of angry eu vetoing free access to the market.

    may can take as much time creating a negotiating strategy as she likes, once the button is pushed, the eu will officially tell the uk that there will be no free access to the single market. they might even announce this within minutes of the button being pushed

    at which point, any pretence by everyone that negotiations will get a good deal will evaporate, from may to sturgeon, corbyn, ruthie or dugdale.

    ergo, we have 4 months to organise yes2 for what is now an inevitability.

    xmas, or there abouts, is d day,
    the earliest indyref2 can be is on the same day as LE, may2017. (not sure if that is possible?) then june or sept 2017 will be independence day 🙂

  82. Dr Jim says:

    All this crap about the UK being the biggest trading partner
    So Freaking what, the UK will still want trade with the EU and we’d be in it, what are the UK going to say, we’ll trade with everybody else but not Scotland coz we’re in the huff with them, that’s just farcical nonsence and a childs argument from idiot Yoons and media to scare thick folk

    The EU is a bloc, trade one trade all, or are they going to cut out Ireland as well
    The RuK need food, they import more than they export and guess where from, or are they just going to live on Auntie Bessies Yorkshire Puddings and Faggots

    And I’m not apologising for the steriotyping there
    The Ruk has no cards here, if this was poker they’d be throwing their hand in already rather than lose everything
    If Theresa May thought she held a good hand she would’nt have rushed up here at the Toot she’d have done what our First Minister did, stack the deck first with weight behind her case

    The UK are panicking here, all they’ve got is a busted bullying flush and a bad attitude while our First Minister has a Royal Flush just waiting to be slapped down on the table

    Game Over!

  83. Harry Shanks says:

    @Grouse Beater 1.16pm

    How about Nicola can only spare Theresa May 45 mins – whereas Ruth the Mooth has nothing better to do with her time?


  84. heedtracker says:

    Thatcher 2’s jet in for NO ref 2’s certainly boosted yoonster toryboys today

    David Torrance Retweeted

    Kenny Farquharson ?@KennyFarq 3m
    / If May delivers access to single market and an Australian points system that favours immigration to Scotland, what does Sturgeon do?
    5 retweets 3 likes
    Reply Retweet 5
    Like 3

    David Torrance Retweeted
    Kenny Farquharson ?@KennyFarq 8m
    / Moral of the story for Sturgeon, who demanded Scottish role in negotiations: Be careful what you ask for. You might actually get it.

    Will UKOK planet toryboy ever hit the Art 50 eject button? 2019 maybe.

  85. snode1965 says:

    So May won’t trigger Article 50 until the Scottish Government agree with the terms of brexit.
    Nice move by May…never leave and blame the jocks.

  86. schrodingers cat says:

    Big Jock says:
    15 July, 2016 at 2:19 pm
    Why wait until article 50 is triggered.?

    cos that is when the brexit illusion of the uk getting a good deal evaporates.

    remember the “5th largest economy in the wurld” gerries “wont cut of the noses despite their faces” etc

    it is also the point where nicola can say “i tried” hey ho, indyref2 act will go through holyrood in Jan2017

    it is also the point where ruthie, dugdale and rennie will have no choice but to answer the question. UK or EU. prevaricating about the bush will no longer be an option.

    btw, once the button is pushed, we could well see a slide on the stock exchange and the £.

    perfect storm.

    ps, desparate to see some opinion polls, im hoping 55% rising to 57% once the news that thatcher is back starts to sink in

  87. Les Wilson says:

    call me dave says:

    I think the goods we send to England, will be well countered by real stats on what England sells to us. Difficult for an accurate figure though, all covered in deceit, much hidden. It is something we rather did not know.

    Experts needed to weed their way through and get the real figure.

  88. heedtracker says:

    michael diamond says:
    15 July, 2016 at 2:37 pm
    Heed tracker 2.09 pm.agree. down here in deepest englandshire, I don’t know who the snp are. Never hear any mention of them on the ebc. What other race of people on this earth would put up with this discriminatory racist shite? .only the union jocks.”

    Its all a pretty good display of how establishment power works and is distributed in the UK. The total black out and exclusion of anyone SNP from BBC politics stuff, from Question Time to all national news is still a surprise. They really are that tory corrupt, with their esteemed colleagues monstering everything SNP in Scotland. So what if Scots licence payers dont like it.

    Oddly enough, neo fascists are actually the only liggers that do give the SNP a mention now and again, like this sneering slob.

    Alan Roden ?@AlanRoden 6h
    In today’s Scottish Daily Mail, @BrokerJonathan on why the graceless SNP MPs reflected terribly on the rest of us.

  89. Cherry says:


    “Much as expected, May is reluctant to go near that EU negotiating table until she has Scotland’s goolies nailed down.”

    Who knew?

    Fixed that for you…you’re welcome! 😉

  90. Bob Mack says:

    Right people. Theresa May has just announced she will not be triggering article 50 until “We have a UK approach and objectives”. What are the possibilities of that statement.It is very specific

    I have a couple of theories.

  91. Dan Huil says:

    @snode1965 2:47pm

    And England goes nuts as a consequence. Result!

  92. Bob Mack says:

    “Nice move by May, never leave and blame the Jocks”

    I agree. Does it really hurt our quest for indy though? I would imagine the population of England would not be too pleased to see their collective will thwarted.
    It might stall the change of circumstance argument for a while but would put enormous pressure on Westminster from the English public.
    UKIP are still hanging around.

  93. Onwards says:

    At least this is going to expose Scottish Labour’s pretence of being some sort of internationalist socialist party.

    If they back the position that Scotland just has to lump it, then they are exposed as a straight up British nationalist party. Which is effectively an English nationalist party where Scottish power and influence is minimal. Simply through sheer weight of numbers.

    They will be choosing London Tory rule over the chance of an internationalist Scotland with a centre-left government.

  94. Dan Huil says:

    May has just said she will not be triggering article 50 until “We have a UK approach and objectives”. So, if May believes Scotland is part of the uk and Scotland doesn’t agree with that “approach” then either Scotland vetoes the whole of brexit or May agrees Scotland goes its own way with independence.

  95. Ruby says:

    snode1965 says:
    15 July, 2016 at 2:47 pm

    So May won’t trigger Article 50 until the Scottish Government agree with the terms of brexit.
    Nice move by May…never leave and blame the jocks.

    Ruby replies

    I need your help as I’m confused again!

    How can she know the terms of Brexit when the EU say they will only negotiate when article 50 is triggered.

  96. heedtracker says:

    Of course these shysters UKOK pile on. Having excluded, slandered, lied to and about absolutely everything Scottish democracy/SNPs since ever and with super human ligger strength, we’re now going to be ‘fully engaged’

    Its another cunning stunt from all teamGBist in their scotland region.


  97. crisiscult says:

    apologies if this has been said already (above)

    Isn’t the most likely scenario that, as with 2014 ref, the UK will be having lots of shady meetings persuading as many people as possible to come out against Scottish independence, most importantly, current members of the EU. The media will then make as much as possible from any comments putting Scotland’s EU membership in doubt: hence the campaign will be: you’ll be out of both Unions!

    The other obvious stick to beat Yes voters with will be the treatment of some EU states such as Greece along the lines: you won’t be allowed in the EU and if you are, you’ll have to use the Euro and you’ll become like Greece, run (into further penury) by neo-liberal technocrats and ze Germans.

  98. Cuilean says:

    Apart from not being able to scare us about losing EU membership anymore, in Indyref2, ‘Better Together’ can’t scare Scots anymore that they will throw up an armed border between Scotland & England.The Scottish border will be the EU Border commonly defended by 27 EU countries against separatist, xenophobic, nationalistic wee England.

    You really could not make up the level of irony involved or my level of pleasure in living to see the day that all ‘Project Fear’ bullying comes back to haunt them.

    It’s going to be such fun, too, to watch Pacific Quay’s wee yoon gang tie themselves in knots, over their UKOK reporting for the next 5 years or so.

  99. heedtracker says:

    Rancid The Graun add new shyste too.

    “Describing the talks as positive, she added: “I have already said that I won’t be triggering article 50 until I think that we have a UK approach and objectives for negotiations – I think it is important that we establish that before we trigger article 50.”

    When Thatcher 2 thinks she’s got a UK approach before art 50 is real cunning, even for this new load of imperial master baiters. Clearly this all we’re going to get mightily dumped on us from on high and for years, via Pacific Quay in particular.

  100. Bob Mack says:


    May is talking about a single negotiating position that all governments in the UK including Holyrood, Welsh assembly and N Ireland assembly, can agree on before starting the process with the EU.

  101. heedtracker says:

    Christ, its going to be 17 million English Brexiteers getting told there can be no Leave until Thatcher 2 thinks the sweaties agree to everything, despite Scots majority Remain.

    Thanks again proud Scot buts.

  102. Brian Powell says:

    If the Brexit negotiations including Scotland doesn’t result in Scotland staying in the EU then Indy is on. Seems simple enough.

  103. Bob Mack says:


    May cannot keep that pitch indefinitely. The Tories might as well hand power to UKIP right now.

  104. Nigel says:

    Thoughts prompted by the Rev’s razor sharp analysis of the unionist dilemma:

    It WILL definitely boil down to being a choice between two unions – a political one (UK) or an economic one (EU)…the prob for SLAB and Tory leaders in Scotland is that they will be damned whichever way they go on this, hence the shifting of position on an almost daily basis. It’s one of their own making I hasten to say, so I have no sympathy for either Kez or Ruthie tank commander. If it was me, I would go with being in politics in an independent country with all of the powers than in politics on the margins of a failing political union – but then I am a little biased…

    I know folk that cannot be bothered with another referendum at this time but if push comes to shove, they will turn out, will vote Yes and for the EU. However, where I live in Nairn, there’s still a significant hard core of folk that will stand by the UK no matter how much c**p is flung at us from Westminster and the P&J is not helping – will make our campaigning interesting to say the least. I also know a few who voted Remain but will vote ultimately vote No in IndyRef2 – a position I do find hard to reconcile unless they expected Remain to win and secure the UK.

    When IndyRef2 comes, I hope it won’t be such a long campaign…many are saying this to me – get it over and done with! We will need a lot of Wee Black and Wee Blue books…

  105. snode1965 says:

    Dan and Bob,
    I agree that what appears to be a shrewd delaying tactic from the Tories, will backfire big time.
    The English media will need a new “threat” to replace Europe…us!

  106. ClanDonald says:

    I find this all deeply worrying.

    Theresa May seems convinced that she can keep Scotland and leave EU at the same time. She just hasn’t worked out how to yet. But don’t think she’s not working on it.

    On Monday the Tories will vote to spend hundreds of billions on renewing their beloved trident. This is a clear message to Scotland that they intend to keep us under their control for a long time to come.

    Yet they know that the minute they press the Article 50 button the 2nd independence referendum will simultaneously launch. And it’s looking increasingly likely that we’d win it.

    There’s no way the tories are going to willingly sacrifice trident and the oil in order to leave the EU. They genuinely think they can have it all.

    But how? It seems impossible.

    Dirty tricks looks like their only option.

  107. I see Torrance and Co are ‘threatening’ their fellow Scots already. Fifth Columnists (‘Quizmasters’? Ed.)in the Fourht Esrte. Treachery by numbers.
    England will cease to trade with us? Arrant nonsense, of course, but they know that.Idiots.
    Proud fellow Scots who will be in the vanguard cheering when their real Motherland, England, wreaks havoc on their neighbour, apparently according to these Dead Tree Scribes, out of sheer spite, which aptly describes the narrow minded pusillanimous cowardly ravings of Torrance and Co. Sheer malignant shite.
    You really are a wee bunch of nasty bullies, aren’t you?
    England will bite our hands off for our goods and services, you numbnuts.They’ll be scrabbling around the globe begging for trade deals, but no Scotch, timber, fish, from Scotland because David Torrance hates his fellow Scots?
    Threaten anything, print any lie, say anything, promise the world as a reward, Armageddon as a punishmen,t and keep taking the American owned newspaper’s neo liberal cash, preferably in pieces of silver.
    I’ll enjoy the litany of lies and threats pouring forth from the Fourth Estate/ Fifth Column over the coming months.
    I never tire of repeating it. Torrance you are an idiot to threaten your fellow Scots citizens like this. I take it that he has a nice wee cushy number lined up in New Little England in the next few years?

  108. Artyhetty says:

    So if it hangs in the balance, ie their brexit, by Scotland having a say, or veto? What does that say to the brexiters, and britnats? They might ask why this was not discussed prior to their referendum.

    It is a dirty game to play against Scotland but hey who ever thought otherwise. May is playing Scotland and her england against each other in effect. A dangerous game indeed.

    Wonder what else was said, Nicola looked non too happy? Surely T.M can’t give Scotland what the EU won’t allow, ie, immigration lite?

  109. Capella says:

    “I have already said that I won’t be triggering Article 50 until I think that we have a UK approach and objectives for negotiations – I think it is important that we establish that before we trigger Article 50.”

    Objective 1 = Scotland remains a member of the EU with full rights and obligations. Red line.

  110. Macart says:


    That works too. 😀

  111. Kevin Evans says:


    If davidsons argument is 16% EU trade against 60% UK trade then am comfortable with that.

    16% of 500 million is 80 million and 60% of 65 million in 36 million so it looks like we trade with more people if we stick with the EU. Not to mention that 36 million of the U.K. will surely still want our timber, whiskey and other products.

    Beware when a unionist politician quotes %’s – if you hear a % it usually means there hiding a true numbered figure with gobbeldygook.

    Like the oil nonsense – we get 9%ish of $50 a barrel in the deal in the UK as it stands. If we had all our resources for ourselves at $50 a barrel to stay in the uk and get the $50 the price would have to reach $520ish dollars a barrel for Scotland to get the same we’d get if we were independent.

    It’s all smoke and mirrors these unionists play. Unfortunately it convinced 55% the last time to keep us shackled to this rotten Union.

    Vote for your country – indyref2 please.

  112. Graeme-D says:

    Am I misunderstanding this or does anyone else think the Unionists know the games up, the union is finished and just want it over with without actually coming out and saying it, ie Hammond may well be a Unionist Tory wanker but I’m sure he’s not an idiot so why would he take the hard line when everyone knows it’s only gonna anger Scots and make them more likely to want to leave the UK it’s almost as if he’s goading us to do it.

    What about Theresa May and her 45 minute meeting with Nicola Sturgeon doesn’t that look to you as more of a “Well I tried to save the union” rather than a serious attempt to actually do it.

    The tories just have to know they’ll never win the argument in Scotland on their own, they need the Labour party to do that for them just as they did during Indyref1, the problem is indyref1 destroyed any credibility the Labour Party ever had in Scotland as recent elections have shown and now find themselves caught between the proverbial rock and hard place.

    There is a way out for Kezia but I doubt she has the integrity to take it and the LibDems well does anybody care

    Come indyref2 I wonder if the establishment will even put up much of a fight because whatever else they may be they are realists, the real battle could be with our own people ie the orange traytirs in our midst

  113. Ruby says:

    Bob Mack says:
    15 July, 2016 at 3:15 pm


    May is talking about a single negotiating position that all governments in the UK including Holyrood, Welsh assembly and N Ireland assembly, can agree on before starting the process with the EU.

    Ruby replies

    Cheers Bob Mack!

    The negotiating position is easy enough to figure out. Two of the countries in the UK want to remain in the EU and the other two want out.

  114. Grouse Beater says:

    Here is the seductive offer – it rests on the sly words “Scottish Government fully engaged in OUR discussions”.

    After the talks, May told broadcasters outside Bute House:

    “I’m willing to listen to options and I’ve been very clear with the first minister today that I want the Scottish government to be fully engaged in our discussions.”

    Describing the talks as positive, she added: “I have already said that I won’t be triggering article 50 until I think that we have a UK approach and objectives for negotiations – I think it is important that we establish that before we trigger article 50.”

    “Our” discussions – May has not offered joint representation approach to Brexit negotiations on equal terms. How can she. We want to stay in, she wants to pull out. And the EC want rid of England yesterday!

    What she has sought to do is delay calls for a second independence referendum until she (May) thinks enough people in Scotland feel ameliorated over losing cooperation with Europe.

    (I dislike the colloquialism ‘trigger’ when people mean activate, but that’s a side issue.)

  115. carjamtic says:

    UKOK ?..Buyers beware…

    Take your pick,from this list,a ‘pig in a poke’ anyone ?

    You aint seen me…right 😉

  116. Valerie says:

    And May-hem goes for that good old Empire tactic – set them against each other, and call it democracy.

    The jocks have to agree Brexit approach, or poor old UK can’t trigger the A50.

    Does anyone think Nicola and her team didn’t anticipate this?

    It again clarifies the choice. Scotland – get to the back of the bus on the road to isolation, or choose independence.

    Nicola is probably on the phone to NI contacts to share the good news.

  117. Fergus Green says:

    It may seem a long time away but maybe the best time for Indy Ref 2 would be in the spring of 2018. Remember there are council elections in May 2017 and its important for the pro-Yes parties to get as many seats as possible and then people be given a few months for people to feel the difference.

    Take Glasgow for example. 53% Yes in 2014, so this means there are up to 200000 No voters to persuade over the next couple of years. Glasgow City Council is almost certain to change to an SNP administration and if a chunk of these 200000 souls, say 10000, can be converted to Yes, Scotland as a whole will be inching its way to a majority for independence.

    The Tories are showing their reluctance to trigger Article 50 so we may be into 2017 before this happens.

    Its all to play for and its all looking good.

  118. Ruby says:

    Artyhetty says:
    15 July, 2016 at 3:27 pm

    So if it hangs in the balance, ie their brexit, by Scotland having a say, or veto? What does that say to the brexiters, and britnats? They might ask why this was not discussed prior to their referendum

    Ruby replies
    It was discussed

    EU exit ‘only possible’ if all four nations of UK agree to it, Nicola Sturgeon says Independent

    No, No, No! Cameron slaps down Sturgeon’s demands over tax and the EU and tells her to forget about another referendum

    Prime Minister travelled to Edinburgh for face-to-face talks with SNP chief
    Cameron ruled out a second referendum or giving Edinburgh an EU veto Mail

  119. heedtracker says:

    Bob Mack says:
    15 July, 2016 at 3:22 pm

    May cannot keep that pitch indefinitely. The Tories might as well hand power to UKIP right now.

    Its probably going to depend on UK economic performance, from June 23. Toryboys cant push art 50 for a lot catastrophic economic impacts but Brexit’s going on right now, day after day, draining away at the whole UK economy.

    If we didn’t have such a shocking corrupt tory BBC led media, there’d be a hell breaking lose. Instead, Ligger Neil’s Daily Politics show today had on some awful shite about English cricket and how great it is. At least that ghastly Murdoch slob didn’t have David Icke back on again.

  120. Paula Rose says:

    The SNP should be publishing an up-date of the Wee BLEU Book and let us get it out there – Indyref2 whatever form it takes will also be a referendum on being in the EU.

  121. Davy says:

    Just a thought, but if May and Hammond are adamant about Scotland not being allowed to remain in the EU, what else could they offer Scotland to pacify it.

    All that’s left is Honours & Money.

    Who are going to be the ("Tractor" - Ed)s this time, who will it be, that are willing to sell their souls and their country to fill there own pockets ?

    Keep an eye open for the next set of fucks, like Darling, Brown, Alexander.

  122. geeo says:

    Watching TM giving her patronising promises to her ‘plebs’ really gave me the boak.

    Not sure what the background music should have been….”we are the world” ,”kumbaya” or the ‘Puddle of Mud’ classic, “She fuckin hates na nana…”

    Guess the 45 min chat went along the lines of….”right you, am busy, got EU leaders to meet….spin yer shite, then take yer scrawny bag o bones back tae dave’s auld hoose”

  123. yesindyref2 says:

    I agree it’s not a commentary blog, it’s a presentation and exposure of media, and in that way rant as much as they like, Unionists can’t disagree because the papers and media actually did say that.

    Anyway, the May meeting a bit disappointing, I was hoping for more, like definite battle lines and confirmation that there’s no way Scotland stays in the EU in effect, while in the UK, so Indy Ref 2 is the only way. But note carefully May didn’t say the UK Government would not “allow” Indy ref 2, same as Cameron, just the usual “oh you had one already”.

    And I didn’t really expect more, this is from May “oh, we’re doing all we can”, and from Sturgeon “oh we’re doing all we can”, kind of like armies sending out scouts exchanging pleasantries and chocolate bars with each other before battle.

  124. AustimusPrime says:

    I ask my question respectfully, I’m a Scot living outside of the Scotland who is pro independence. The only reason I live outside Scotland is I have to support my family as a lone worker in a relatively low wage job, I am a retail manager. BUt when I was in Scotlan during the referendum The European question formed part of the arguement and the country still voted to stay in the UK so what is it specifically about the departure from Europe now that is forming the groud for a second referendum? My second question is that with an open border in a european Scotland benefiting from a stronger economy does this not lead to wage suppression as European migration increases from countries who’s economy is not doing so well?

  125. Big Jock says:

    Davy they could offer FFA. But that would be subject to us agreeing Brexit. So correct there is nothing on offer.

  126. Dan Huil says:

    May has, deliberately or not, sowed the seeds of massive confusion between how britnats perceive her comments and how supporters of Scottish independence perceive them. It can only strengthen the differences between Scotland and England.

  127. Jack Murphy says:

    A certain Alistair Darling said a couple of years ago that a Federal structure was unworkable and a non-starter for that very reason.
    If it wasn’t him it was one of the other Bettertogether high heid yins.

  128. yesindyref2 says:

    Right, now the upside of May’s visit. It’s basically the first of her appointments, and she had that with Sturgeon, and the key from that is “Respect”. Which should mean an Edinburgh Agreement 2 on similar lines, done in a democratic way same as the first, and attraacting some world admiration as the first one did. In fact if the UK / rUK is going to make its own way in the world, it hs to get off to a good start, and May clearly realises this. It also gives Scotland and Sturgeon extra gravitas – I would think the EU / World will appreciate that.

    It also bodes well for the post-YES negotiations – personally I expected if a YES in Indy Ref 1, they would have gone better than most pundits forecast. I think in that respect, May will be the same as Cameron would have. And who knows as well, perhaps Westminster is already seeing some advantages in having iScotland in the EU, while the rUK is out.

  129. Sunniva says:

    If May is talking about a combined UK approach that would be acceptable to Scotland it puts her at odds with her chancellor Hammond who has ruled out a separate deal for Scotland.

    Maybe she means to use Scotland as the excuse not to trigger A50 as has been suggested?

    After all, her saying ‘Brexit means Brexit’ doesn’t commit her to it. She is merely saying that’s how she interprets the word.

  130. Iain More says:

    Well all I really heard on Disreporting Jackie today was Gollum May mouthing “It is the precious!”. Oh and that tit Kerr getting himself in knots as he tried to decide which way his head was going to spin.

    Renton I thought was more than fair on the main EBC News. I wonder if she has been walking on the road to Damascus.

  131. Macart says:


    Both buying time comes to mind. How and ever, watch what the usual suspects make of it in the right wing press. 😉

    This is going to come down to who can wait longest for a telling blow and who is under the most pressure to act?

  132. Grouse Beater says:

    Don’t overlook Sturgeon’s dilemma:

    If she agrees to joint (but unequal) talks and leaves with half a bag of sweeties she will have effectively robbed Scotland of a second independence referendum.

    It isn’t safe to join in EU negotiations that will take at least two years to reach any sort of substantial stage, a stage only suitable for Farage’s England.

    As I said, May and her right-wing cronies are playing for time. That’s the only card they have.

  133. Ruby says:

    The Herald is a really strange newspaper I don’t know why anyone bothers to comment there.

    This morning I read an article entitled

    New Chancellor Philip Hammond: Scotland should not have different relationship with EU

    which had a whole load of comments but now all the comments have gone and comments are closed.

  134. Big Jock says:

    There are 27 other nations in the EU who might want to push the button, or push May into the button. When you tell someone you are leaving they don’t let you hang about for too long.

    It’s not as simple as saying in our own time. That is a unilateral decision. When you are in a bilateral agreement the majority decide for you.

  135. dmw42 says:

    NS response

    First Minister Nicola Sturgeon has held constructive talks with the Prime Minister Theresa May at Bute House.

    The First Minister welcomed the Prime Minister to Edinburgh on what was her first official visit since coming into office.

    Following the meeting, the First Minister said:

    “It was a constructive and very good discussion.

    “The Prime Minister and I have big political disagreements but we are both women who approach business in a similar way, so I think we can have a good working relationship not withstanding those political differences.

    “I was very pleased that Theresa May said that she was absolutely willing to consider any options that the Scottish Government now brings forward to secure Scotland’s relationship with the European Union. The process that is now taken forward by the UK Government will be open and flexible and the Scottish Government will be fully involved in that.

    “These negotiations have yet to take shape and the UK Government don’t yet know exactly how they will proceed from here, but there is an agreement that Scottish Government officials will be very closely involved in discussions to give shape to this process and will be involved in that process. Crucially, and this is the most important point from my point of view, is that that process will be open to considering options that the Scottish Government brings forward.”

    The First Minister reiterated to the Prime Minister that she will make sure Scotland’s interests are protected and she will continue to examine every option possible, including a second independence referendum. She added:

    “I’ve said previously that if we want to protect our relationship with the European Union then Scotland may have to consider becoming an independent member. If it proves not to be possible to fully protect Scotland’s interests through the UK process then the Prime Minister knows that a second independence referendum is of course on the table.

    “However, I’ve also been consistently clear that I want to examine all options for protecting Scotland’s position, protecting our interests, protecting our relationship with the EU. That’s why I’ve assembled a team of experts that will advise me on the options that might exist, and it was very important today to get a commitment from the Prime Minister to listen to options that the Scottish Government will bring forward.”

  136. Wull says:

    I can to some extent understand why Nicola Sturgeon / the Scottish Government / the SNP are beinng cautious. And maybe they are right, for the time being. But it seems to me they will lose the initiative if they become too cautious.

    They too have to grasp the nettle, and state plainly what is obviously the case.

    For their own and Scotland’s good, they have to proclaim more loudly and clearly than they have done so far, that they simply do NOT see how Scotland can stay in the European Union without becoming an independent country.

    They can say ‘We are open to suggestions, OK…’ So long as they immediately add: ‘BUT, so far, NONE have been made that are in the least bit feasible or possible … And we need these suggestions fast: there is no time to dither on this.’

    In that last regard, they can even take a page out of Mrs May’s book: whatever else she’s doing, she is not dithering. As in football, if you want to win, you have to grab the initiative. ‘First to the ball …’ and all that. ‘You make your own luck …’ by being pro-active.

    The SNP have to kick the ball into the court of the British government, and challenge them directly. A lot more directly than they have done so far: ‘YOU – you, the UK Government – YOU show us HOW we can deliver what the Scottish people voted for, as we are bound to do, and yet remain in the UK. Show us HOW that WILL be possible. How are YOU going to keep us in the EU when you do your Brexit? Tell us .. please.’

    And Mrs May and Co will have to give the only answer they can give. And the more they are pressed, the more she and hers will have to keep repeating: Not only they are NOT going to do it … They are NOT even going to try to do it.

    Maybe the contempt will become not just evident, but tangible.

    The same challenge will have to be made in Holyrood, maybe in a different tone. The Labour Party in Scotland, the Lib Dems in Scotland and the Conservatives in Scotland have all said they don’t want Scotland to leave the EU.

    Good! Hold them to it.

    Tell them: we can’t see any way for Scotland to stay in the EU if she remains in the UK. So, please, please DO show us how that can be done, if that is what you believe is possible.

    And don’t just show it to us! Show it to the Scottish people as a whole … Show it also to the Southern branches of the Parties you belong to.

    Ruth, show it to the English (and Welsh) Conservatives, and for Heavan’s sake – and Scotland’s – get them to DO it.

    Same thing with you, the Labour Party in Holyrood: phone up your English (and Welsh) branch, and tell them how to keep Scotland in full membership of both the UK and the EU.

    And tell us too, and everyone else.

    And you, the LibDems in Holyrood, you too tell your colleagues in Westminster how to make the impossible possible. And tell us – the Scottish people – too. On you go – we are not preventing you, we are waiting for you.

    Maybe you are seeing something that we are blind to – well, open our eyes! Help us!

    The more the Scottish Government / SNP challenge the new Brexiteer British Government (and Scottish UK-Unionists) in this way, the more Mrs May and her British Brexiteers will have to slap the Scots down.

    She and her friends will have to say, again and again, as her Chancellor Philip Hammond already did, that there is NO WAY Scotland can have a different deal on Europe from the rest of the UK. In other words, remaining within the UK, there is NO WAY that the clearly stated will of the Scottish people (to stay in the EU) can be ‘granted’ or achieved.

    And that will embarass at least some Conservatives in Scotland. Some of them are sane, and will then have to choose: either they have to agree with their London government, or they have to break out on their own and say let there be a Conservative Party in Scotland that is genuinely Scottish.

    I don’t believe all Conservative voters in Scotland are necessarily anti-independence. Even those who have been could begin to change their mind. And I am sure that a good number of them – think of the busines community – are NOT radically anti-EU. Rather the contrary … Many are probably in favour, even very much so.

    There are opportunities to widen and grow the pro-Independence movement here. And we should not baulk at it -every vote counts.

    Whether we like it or not, there will still be Conservatives or Conservative-minded people in an independent Scotland. It will be a free country, and everyone is allowed his opinion.

    We can’t send them home – this is their home – and it would be unjust to make them feel ill at ease or not at home in what is and will be their own country. If they are here, and they will be, it will be much better if they favour an independent Scotland, rather than being a disgruntled minority carping from the wings.

    Grow the pro-Indy vote – emphasise the benefits of Europe. Welcome pro-Indy Conservatives, even if you don’t agree with them. They will be a real part of the mature Scotland that is coming about.

    Meanwhile, Mrs May and her Brexiteers can do as much hand-wringing as they like about how much they love their fictitious ‘4-nation Union’ … Their way of dealing with the stated will of the Scottish people will give the lie to that. We will not be accommodated: ‘majority rule’ in the ‘Great British 4-Nation Love-In’ will mean ‘English rule’, plain for all to see. The Scots will never have their way on any major issue, even in Scotland, in what the British Brexiteers regard as ‘their’ country.

    Scotland is not ‘ours’, don’t forget – it’s ‘theirs’. The model for the ‘4-Nation Union’ that is being invented under our noses is NOT the 1707 Treaty of Union, but the incorporating unions, achieved by conquest … Whereby the biggest country, the one in the centre, the one that alone matters, ‘acquired’ others, those on the periphery, as ‘their’ property and possession.

    The ‘others’ weren’t real countries – just ‘lands’ … As in ‘landed estates’ … Territories, that the centre needed, and acquired, for itself. … The English, despite being such a historical and historically minded nation, actually confuse – muddle up – what happened in 1707 with what Edward I tried to achieve in 1296. In fact, they seem to think that 1707 was the final fulfilment and accomplishment of Edward’s plan … When in fact, it was something different altogether. …

    But that is another story – back to what the Scottish Government and the SNP should be doing RIGHT NOW.

    The choice that has to be made EITHER between remaining in the UK (as a subservient entity, in a 4-nation Union where the 3 always have to bow to the wishes of 1, which continually outvotes and overpowers each of them, if they dare disagree) OR becoming independent in Europe (as one of the nation-states of the EU) …

    A no-brainer, if ever there was one …

    Instead of the ‘softly softly’ approach of ‘we will explore all avenues’ to see if the circle can be squared – which it clearly can’t – Nicola Sturgeon, the Scottish Government, the SNP and all pro-Indy campaigners need to take the initiative. That means saying plainly to those who vainly hope some ‘middle way’ will magically turn up: ‘You show us how! We can’t find a way – so you show us it! You square the circle – we, honestly, can’t manage it.’

    It does NOT mean the SNP / Scottish Governemnt should be vainly hoping, or seeming to hope, to find such a non-existent solution. Say it plainly: as far as we can see, it can’t be done. If it can be done, show us, and TELL US HOW. But don’t wait for two years to tell us – TELL US NOW. SHOW US THE SCENARIO WHEREBY IT WILL BE ACHIEVED.

    That also means the leaders of the pro-Indy movement need to be ready to take chances.

    Instead of saying ‘maybe ther’s a way – let’s look’ (‘maybe Aye, maybe Naw!’), it is time to TALK UP – loud and clear – the BENEFITS of EU membership. Plenty of people in Scotland are fully convinced of that: but they need to be encouraged, and reinforced in their view, not left hanging in the air.

    Others who are not yet fully convinced can become convinced – but will only do so if they are given the right information. And it has to be right – not rose-coloured hopes and desires. Just facts.

    When I say ‘plenty of people’ in Scotland are pro-EU, it’s a lot more than the 62% who actually came out to vote for it on the 23rd of June. For a start, you can add all the EU nationals living and working in Scotland who were unjustly excluded from the vote. They were not heard this time, but they WILL be voting in Indyref2. Just as they did in Indyref1. The difference will be they will all come out this time, and they will know what is at stake.

    Now that the confusion into which they were led the last time has been extinguished, they will all to a man (and woman) vote for independence.

    If they had been allowed to vote in the 2016 referendum, instead of 62% it would have been nearer 70% for continued EU membership.

    Then there are those who did not vote at all. We can be fairly sure that the majority of these – maybe even the vast majority – are actually pro-EU. Everyone knew that there was going to be a pro-EU majority in Scotland. The polls here were unambiguous. It is those who know that their side is going to win who begin to take the result for granted – and ‘forget’ to vote, or become apathetic about turning out.

    Those who feel they are up against it, because they know they are a minority and risk losing … These are the ones more inclined to turn out and vote. The anti-EU vote in Scotland peaked at 38%, and won’t get higher … Unless – and it is an important ‘unless’ – the pro-EU people, especially the Scottish Government, lose the initiative on this one badly, and people get swamped by the misinformation that is going to continue to appear in the mainline media.

    By that reckoning those who are sympathetic to continued EU membership in Scotland is probably North of 70%. So talk it up, confirm them in their view. Bring out more and more facts which demonstrate how much benefit Scotland derives from the EU.

    And do it now, while even the opposition Parties in Scotland will not / cannot oppose or distort these facts. Even they are pro-EU – so exploit that, ram the point home. Get them still more clearly on the pro-EU side.

    Nicola, Scottish Government, SNP – hammer home the benefits of our membership of the EU. Not only the economic benefits, but the social ones. Before these facts get lost in a plethora of propaganda, and obfuscating detail.

    Because, make no mistake, such obfuscation is just about to begin, big-time. Immediately the exit negotiations start, the media will spread it everywhere, like dung. To sell their shoddy goods, the British Brexiteers will have to pretend they are getting a great deal from the EU, which they won’t be. They will have to present themselves as the brilliant and successful negotiators which they aren’t, dressing up their defeat in the clothes of victory.

    And the media, the well-heeled ragmen of Brexit, will blast THE LIE everywhere. Telling everyone how beautful are the Emperor’s new clothes, how wonderful the Brexit, and how dare anyone say otherwise?

    It is true that 38% anti-EU voters is a substantial minority, which can’t just be ignored. However the 24% difference between that and the 62% who voted to stay in the EU shouldn’t be ignored either, and needs to be encouraged. Every effort should be made not just to keep that 62% on board, but to grow and increase it. And now is the hour.

    Brexit IS the substantive change which DOES require Indyref2. There is no point pussyfooting around that clearest of facts.

    There is nothing for the SNP to fear in this regard. It is often said that if Indyref2 is lost, that will be the end of the independence movement for the next 25 years, at least. But it won’t be! Not in these new circumstances that have arisen.

    If only because what we are currently calling Indyref2 won’t be an Indyref at all – it will be a Union-ref.

    The question will not be ‘Should Scotland become an independent country?’, as it was (more or less) in Indyref1. No!

    The question will be along the lines of: ‘Which Union do you want Scotland to be a member of: the European Union or the UK?’

    Tick in the appropriate box. And anyone who ticks both of them will have spoiled his vote, so it won’t count. There are only 2 alternatives, NOT 3.

    The implication will be clear. Everyone will know that we can’t be a member of both. It’s one or the other. EITHER we become one of the sovereign nations of Europe within the EU’s understanding of pooled sovereignty, OR we continue as a non-sovereign and stateless entity within the unitary state known internationally as the UK. No middle way …

    And, in such a case, even if (which I don’t expect) a majority of Scots were to vote foolishly (i.e. for the second of these two options), that Union-ref question would not preclude a further Indyref. Further down the line.

    If that happened, it would be Indyref2, not 3. The Union-ref would have been a choice between two Unions, not a Yes or No choice about independence as such. With implications, of course, but not an Indyref as such …

    I am pretty sure that no further Indyref would ever be needed. I think we will freely choose to be a member-state of the EU. Probably in 2018. And by a considerable majority. And once we are in the EU, as a real member, I think we will enjoy it. We will make a good contribution there, and be appreciated for it. Scotland IS a European nation. SNP / NIcola / Scottish Government – Fear not! Go for it!

  137. call me dave says:

    PM May and Davis the new ‘SSEEU’ not too keen to press the A50 button. 🙂

    Sounds like in that reference to ‘Hotel California’

    “You can check out any time you like / But you can never leave!”

    Oh! Eagles again, I wonder how that’s going?

  138. heedtracker says:

    They’ve got a summer of teamGB Brazil Olympics and they clearly used London Olympics for massive UK Britnat boosting. They keep up this rancid The Graun style “you’re fully involved so don’t worry” aimed directly at Scots ABC1’s, BBC Scotland terrorises and monsters everything and anyone north of Carlisle as usual, Scots polls show not quite enough for ref 2, does having to carry your passport when you’re on your hols really make for Scottish independence, and that’s it, status quo for Thatcher 2 until 2020 GE at least.

    Ref 2’s a very difficult call. BBC Scotland alone can and will do whatever it takes to win ref 2 and I wouldn’t like to have to make the decision to take them on, especially if it meant the end of my career and every other SNP MP in Westminster too. Keep in mind how quick UKOK establishment reprobates like Cammers, Osborne, Gove etc have gone for good. SNP are totally blacked out of UK political discourse as it all stands now.

    Life still has to go on in teamGB land.

    — Nicola Sturgeon (@NicolaSturgeon)
    July 15, 2016
    Politics aside – I hope girls everywhere look at this photograph and believe nothing should be off limits for them.

  139. Ruby says:

    Who will make the decision for England re EU negotiating position?

    Will this be one of these EVEL questions?

  140. Connor McEwen says:


  141. yesindyref2 says:

    Yes, there is that. Sturgeon has to wait for support to rise, and for May, the longer the UK waits to invoke A50, the better the deal they’re likely to get from the EU – perhaps even pre-negotiation and promises before. It’s casuing instability in the EU, and the EU don’t like that. The sooner for them the UK is shaken out in the back green, beaten and hoovered the better.

  142. Training Day says:


    Excellent post and in full agreement with your sentiments. Shove, in my view, has already superseded Push..

  143. heedtracker says:

    The First Minister reiterated to the Prime Minister that she will make sure Scotland’s interests are protected and she will continue to examine every option possible, including a second independence referendum. She added:

    “I’ve said previously that if we want to protect our relationship with the European Union then Scotland may have to consider becoming an independent member. If it proves not to be possible to fully protect Scotland’s interests through the UK process then the Prime Minister knows that a second independence referendum is of course on the table.


    If we lose to the UKOK BBC freakshow, we’re fcuked for life.

  144. Effijy says:

    I have been looking at my old Mum’s Evening Times lately.
    I haven’t read or bout a propaganda print in years, so now better educated, I note that they generally print 4 Letters
    from readers, (Possibly Elitist Script writers).
    They have a minimum requirement of one letter being anti-SNP, or hate Sturgeon.

    Today they have excelled themselves with all 4 letters focused on SNP Bad. lol

    The main shock and disgust was SNP’s MP nor giving the retiring PM, Pig Sh****, and destroyer of our economy, a
    warm round of applause?????

    PS Also thought that this edition didn’t have a word in it about the Tragedy in Nice?
    Could it be the day before it is released for sale?
    I suppose it can when the scripts come out of Westminster

  145. Big Jock says:

    The whole thing is a trap and I hope Nicola is wise to it. May says yes we will trigger Brexit ASAP. However we need the SG to come on board to trigger this. SG refuses and they say look Brexiteers it’s not us holding up the process it’s the Scots. If Nicola comes on board she is condoning the Brexit process. Either way Scotland loses.

    Now is the time to say enough of the game play. You can do as you please and we will secure Scotland’s place in the EU ourselves. If Sturgeon is seen in any way to be negotiating an exit it’s curtains for the SNP’s credibility.

    For once state your beliefs, carry them out and be judged on the outcome.

    I am alrady frustrated at the game playing and posturing. Time for action.

  146. BrokenUnion says:

    ““The best future for Scotland is inside the United Kingdom economy”

    Right. Is it just me being stroppy today or is there anybody else out there who is also getting totally fed up and less tolerant by the second with politicians, banksters, biased-MSM-presenters, brainless-mone-like celebrities, and mouth-to-the-mogul-owner reporters who don’t hesitate about giving their biased opinions about what Scotland should or shouldn’t do but

    1. can’t be bothered to live in Scotland
    2. can’t be bothered pay taxes in Scotland
    3. don’t really care about Scotland
    4. don’t have to suffer the negative consequences of the Union policies in Scotland
    5. don’t have the best interests of the Scottish people at heart
    6. just like Scotland as it is now (an underdeveloped, underpopulated, oppressed and gagged nation being kept on a extremely tight leash by the more populated England which seems to have been enjoying the benefit of both this nation resources and the power to control it, courtesy of the opinionated ones mentioned above)
    7. wouldn’t give a toss for Scotland if it was not for the continuous flowing of revenues from Scotland to Westminster’s coffers?

    I am getting sick and fed up of being patronised and lectured by these biased wannabes who think first about what is best for themselves, second for their party and third for the City.

    I would like to say to all those: about time you shut the feck up. It is not up to you to decide what is best for this nation. It is up to this nation to decide what is best for itself and Scotland can decide by itself, thank you very much, so bloody back off.

    I am getting beyond exasperated with the continuous churning of inane comments from the mouths of consecutive SLabour leaders and the ‘repugnantly Westminster-biased advice’ from senior old-fart Labour rejects who insist in stomping their feet over Scotland to push it always down into submission. What sort of patriotism is that? You people make me sick and I think you should be effing embarrassed of behaving like servants to Westminster to the detriment of your nation. Are you really Scottish? Then bloody prove it by acting for Scotland for once.

    As for the SConservatives and particuarly their leader, I think the time has come when this woman, seemingly brave enough to ride anything alive or not, shows us what she is really made of:

    Ruth, are you really standing for the Scottish people and for Scotland? or you are just enjoying the attention of the press and the sound of your own voice because the only thing you are after is to see how far politically you get by licking the boots of those at Westminster suffocating Scotland?

    Reckoning time for SLab and SCon leaders has arrived:

    you defended fiercely the remaining of Scotland in the EU. Didn’t you? So, how trustworthy are your words and your promises ladies? How much of independent leaders are you? Is it going to be what is best for Scotland this time or rather the same old what-suits-party-HQ in England?

  147. clan rossy says:

    Theresa.may get tae f@ck
    Philip hammond get tae f@ck
    David mundell get tae f@ck
    Ruth davidson get tae f@ck
    Kezzy the dug get tae f@ck
    oor wee willie get tae f@ck

    all brit/scot unionists and forelock tuggers
    get tae f@ck

    jesus christ this is getting depressing
    thatcher/2 is just stringing our nicola along
    she is trying to lure her into a trap
    for gods sake. how can you negotiate with scum bags
    like these

    they will absolutely shaft us anyway they can
    they want to hold on to us and will do everything in there
    power to make it happen . it is not about time
    our nicola says enough is enough .

    jesus christ declare u.d.i. secede from the union do something its getting very depressing running after these scumbags all the time.

  148. yesindyref2 says:

    @Big Jock
    Yes, that is a possibility, May using Scotland as an excuse to hold back. With any luck the Brexiters will kick up a fuss about that though, so it doesn’t do any harm if Indy types point that out as much as possible 🙂

  149. velofello says:

    I fear Westminster will talk Brexit to the public whist attempting to remain in the EU on Westminster negotiated terms. The USA will have NATO consequences of the UK departure in mind and will pressure the EU negotiate a deal. So for Scotland to patiently waiting for Westminster to initiate Brexit date, it may never happen and we will lose an independence opportunity.

    Federalism? Will never happen in real terms. Westminster will never yield to shared control over foreign affairs and defence.

    The mandate is there for Nicola Sturgeon – In order to remain in the EU we are declaring the end of the Treaty of Union with England.

  150. Andrew McLean says:

    The Problem with Thatcher in May, is she can’t step out of her comfort zone, a upper class English Tory Wife, good for a administrator, matronly to keep the chaps in line, but completely out her depth with regards to Scotland. the more stern the more dictatorial she sounds! WE ARE ALL VILE SEPARATISTS!
    Fantastic we have Thatcher back, “I am reminded of Saint Francis Of Assisi” well Thatcher “May” he also said “True progress quietly and persistently moves along without notice.” , You have not been keeping up, from your crypt, Scotland has changed, for the avoidance of doubt a referendum,

  151. yesindyref2 says:

    Ah, here you go, quick off the mark an email from Sturgeon, the gist of it:

    Come what may
    Today I welcomed the new Prime Minister to Bute House in Edinburgh.

    I sought a commitment from her that the UK government would listen and consider all the options
    raised by Scotland.

    So there is now an agreement that the Scottish Government will be fully involved in ‘Brexit’ talks.

    With Scotland facing exit from the EU against our will, warm words about a ‘special Union’ won’t cut

    A Union that ignores our wishes would not be very special at all.

    I’ll continue to explore all options to preserve our place in Europe (
    to_ensure_scotland_s_place_in_the_eu?mc_cid=95c82555aa&mc_eid=[UNIQID]) . That’s what
    Scotland voted for.

    And, a new poll shows the people across Europe strongly support Scotland’s place in Europe too.

    I’ll be back with a further update soon. Until then, I’ll be working tirelessly to protect Scotland place
    in Europe… come what may.

    So she knows what we’re thinking.

  152. galamcennalath says:

    Capella says:

    “Objective 1 = Scotland remains a member of the EU with full rights and obligations. Red line.”

    I agree. Remain means Remain. EURef delivered a huge mandate. I cannot imagine a solution which did not entail Scotland in full Remain.

    ( if we ever get a mandate like that for Indy, we won’t be seen for dust! )

    If the EU and/or the UK won’t entertain Remain short of Indy, then so be it.

    This is all standard Unionist strategy. Play for time in the hope that Unionism somehow comes back into fashion in Scotland. It is interesting that the will delay Article 50 as part of this strategy. The EU might have other ideas.

  153. Anne Bruce says:

    Email from Nicola Sturgeon,

    Her expectations regarding May are not great:

    “Come what may

    Today I welcomed the new Prime Minister to Bute House in Edinburgh.

    I sought a commitment from her that the UK government would listen and consider all the options raised by Scotland.

    So there is now an agreement that the Scottish Government will be fully involved in ‘Brexit’ talks.

    With Scotland facing exit from the EU against our will, warm words about a ‘special Union’ won’t cut it.

    A Union that ignores our wishes would not be very special at all.

    I’ll continue to explore all options to preserve our place in Europe. That’s what Scotland voted for.

    And, a new poll shows the people across Europe strongly support Scotland’s place in Europe too.

    I’ll be back with a further update soon. Until then, I’ll be working tirelessly to protect Scotland place in Europe… come what may.”

  154. Anne Bruce says:

    Sorry, didn’t see the post re Nicola’s email.

  155. Effijy says:

    I tried to send a second post on a different topic, only 10
    minutes apart. It didn’t send and I got this warning?

    You are posting comments too quickly. Slow down.

    Is anyone else experiencing this?

  156. heedtracker says:

    Wull says:
    15 July, 2016 at 4:10 pm
    I can to some extent understand why Nicola Sturgeon / the Scottish Government / the SNP are beinng cautious.

    Try to keep in mind who voted NO, Scotland’s ABC1 classes, Scots and English. To understand why these classes voted NO you maybe have to look at Labour and Gordon Brown’s socio economics, all building on the Major and Thatcher 1 era.

    Crash did something that most Labour voters (like me) didn’t expect in that he boosted middle and upper middle class pay, pension and benefits. And he didnt do it a little bit and stop. He kept boosting this managerial and professional public class rump with so much money, we now have giant debt.

    Crash wasn’t doing this for fun. Westminster knows exactly who UKOK votes and why. Crash probably didn’t envisage a Scottish middle and upper class facing a Scottish referendum but for this whole class to suddenly say ok, lets make a major change, well its probably not going to happen.

    As Crash beefed up medics and public sector middle/upper management pay and pensions, the private sector had to follow it but that’s ok, just chuck it on the debt mountain, we’re all going to die one day, kind of public sector Crash borrowing.

    So this is the class or classes that will be Project Feared again by the BBC, rancid The Graun etc. BBC Project Fearing failed quite badly in the poorest Scottish cites as we know and it’ll probably fail there again but that’s not their problem.

    On balance, Crash Gordon had full on BBC Scotland backing and he did pump even more borrowed money into easy solution tax credits, but once again, dumped it on the debt mountain. As soon as blue tories took over, it was gone.

    Thatcher 2 will do much the same. They have the living wage to silence the plebs and she’ll have another good war to keep the UK saluting the union jack Bettertogether, for your safety and security. The BBC will make sure you do.

  157. Ruby says:


  158. jimnarlene says:

    @ heedtracker

    Spot on. Broon the loon knew exactly who he was buying, soft Tories.

  159. Ian says:

    What exactly has the UK to offer other than more of the same. Take one key measure, the UK Balance of Payments.

    ‘The balance of payments is the record of a country’s transactions / trade with the rest of the world.

    The UK has had a persistent current account deficit in the past 15 years. This is caused largely by the deficit in trade in goods, and recently a deterioration in investment incomes.’

    Take a look at the above chart which shows the UK compared with other European countries. The UK is the only one that is getting worse year after year. That is the reality of the UK. Relentless decline with no plan to halt let alone reverse such a dead end economic strategy. Rising house prices are taken to be a good thing, in fact sometimes it seems, the only measure of economic success.

    Staying in the UK would be economic and social insanity as determined by the Westminster Boys (& now Girls) Club.

    The EU isn’t perfect but it works incomparably better than the UK.

  160. Undeadshuan says:

    With regards to may saying she needs a uk agreement to article 50.

    This can be used to our advantage as eu has said if article 50 not triggered in 12 months, then they will ignore it and we will not leave.

    So torys have until next June to trigger it or Scotland has caused UK to stay in eu.

    So either they use it as an excuse to never leave and blame Scotland or they trigger it and indyref2 happens.

    If we keep them in, then when indyref2 happens at a future date when events dictate it, they wont fight so hard to keep us.

    As for timing, we are talking about the most right wing government since thatcher and no effective labour party to replace them, so it wont be hard to find a suitable event that can be used to trigger it.

  161. yesindyref2 says:

    @Anne Bruce
    No worries, yours is better formatted than mine. I think I have some sort of character set problem. Shrug.

  162. Dr Jim says:

    Just in:

    Emails out from the FM telling us warm words from the Prime Minister won’t cut it and she will do what’s right for Scotland “Come what may”

    Those of you who can do the linky thing will be able to do your thing but that seems pretty clear to me

  163. Capella says:

    I agree with galmcennalath and undeadshaun above. We have plenty of time. We have our campaign over the summer to convert as many as possible to the cause. We have the Local Authority elections next May to clear out the rotten boroughs.
    Nicola will choose the time for another referendum when success is guaranteed. She likes to have all her ducks in a row.

    The farcical show in Westminster will run and run. Boris as FM. The Labour coup. Plenty to keep us entertained for months to come as they fiddle while Rome burns.

    p.s. effigy – we are all getting the ‘slow down you post too fast’ message.

  164. Thepnr says:

    My advice as if any was needed is chill. The Scottish Government has our backs.

    There will be a 2nd Referendum and likely a winnable one for the Yes side. It’s YOUR job to make it winnable no matter the noise.

    OUR job, I meant OUR job.

  165. Johnny says:

    If all the nations of the UK had to agree on the issue of the EU, then Cameron should have placed the ‘four country lock’ on the referendum as was suggested. Too late now!

  166. Dr Jim says:

    Everything’s posting out of time and sync

  167. One_Scot says:

    I’m not sure if May used the term ‘special union’ herself, but if she did, then that is just pure piss taking trolling of the highest order.

    It must have taken every fibre in Nicola being not to put the nut her.

  168. dakk says:

    ‘As Crash beefed up medics and public sector middle/upper management pay and pensions’

    To the extent that in GP world,full time work is unheard of.

    Part-time worthy NHS public servants and still stinking rich.

    Maybe our best hope for Independence is for swingeing Westminster cuts to Scotland’s block grant.

  169. Dan Huil says:

    Good email from FM.

  170. Liz Rannoch says:

    TO; all you glum guts above.

    Gie the wummin a chance. Setting up experts on Europe, checking into everything and waiting to see who would be PM – ALL TAKES TIME.
    Nicola hasn’t missed her chance, she’s not ‘giving in’, good god, how long does it take to organise a holiday? She can’t launch the rocket Indyref2 until she has ‘explored’ every avenue – even if she already ‘knows’ that nothing will work.
    For crying out loud, take a break, it’s only 3 WEEKS since the EU ref.

  171. Robert Kerr says:

    From the Guardian re the meeting at Bute House.

    “But May’s official spokeswoman insisted that the prime minister believed the issue of Scottish independence had now been settled.”

    This is Delphic Oracle stuff.

    What does it mean?

    My take is “Mexican Standoff”

    Running low on popcorn!

  172. heedtracker says:

    jimnarlene says:
    15 July, 2016 at 5:22 pm
    @ heedtracker

    Spot on. Broon the loon knew exactly who he was buying, soft Tories.

    He was. I use massive brushes:D but Lab and SLab aren’t the red tory party for no reason. And it’s all cost us a massive debt mountain. SLab and Crash would never say it out loud but giant debt is also another weapon with which they can use to block big socio economic change and ofcourse, red and blue tories certainly do do.

    Check our own Kevrage, his silly graphs and his Scotland’s bankrupt without the English giving you money, so vote NO stuff. That toryboy calls England giving Scots money, “the fiscal transfer” because he’s not a lunatic, just another middle class tory yoon, terrifying middle class Scots into NO, he hopes.

    Another way of looking at Crash Gordo’s rump middle class UK is watching how advertising, marketing and tory BBC politics sells their stuff to them. Almost everything we see around us aimed squarely at middle and upper class teamGB simply because they have all the money, disposable income, and they do vote.

    BBC Scotland talks to them, it uses endemic poverty to scare them but today for example, Thatcher 2 spoke directly to Scots ABC1’s today. Everyone can else can like it, or fcuk off. Sturgeon has do to the exact same thing.

    As Brexit hits middle class UK harder and harder, things might change but a lot depends on how the new tory crew mitigate it all and how the BBC led media propaganda soft soaps Brexit recession, as usual. But if its really bad, we’ll see it first in great British middle class marketing.

  173. Tinto Chiel says:

    Excellent article, Rev and some very interesting comments btl from our deep thinkers.

    I can’t imagine Ruth or Kezia will want to face up to the choice which awaits them but in the end I think they will choose the

  174. heedtracker says:

    First BBC r4 teatime headline, “Prime Minister Teresa May has dismissed the idea of a second Scottish referendum.” Wallop. Skelped across the back of our legs by the BBC and Thatcher 2.

  175. bjsalba says:

    So 60% of our trade is with rUK is it? So can somebody tell me how much of that trade actually originates from England/Wales/N.Ireland? Next time you are in the supermarket take a look at where what you are buying comes from.

    Guatamala, Egypt, Morocco, France, Philippines, China, USA – shipped into an English port or airfield and brought up to Scotland by road or rail.

    Anybody know? Of course not. They don’t want us to know.

  176. Tinto Chiel says:

    Excellent article, Rev, and some very interesting comments btl from our deep thinkers.

    I can’t imagine Ruth or Kezia will want to face up to the choice which awaits them but in the end I think they will choose the Glorious Union which we are desperate to leave. Kezia’s wittering about federalism is a sure sign British Labour in S______d will never embrace independence without a split.

    Interesting video from Labour Hame comprehensively describing their Federalism proposals. Hope this links properly. Anticipating hammers:

  177. call me dave says:

    I see Bute Hoose cannae afford a Union Jack but managed twa saltires next tae the fireplace. 🙂

    Never saw that picture of the ‘Yellow’ Scotland map must have been on anither wall.

    Good on you Sturgeon!

  178. Undeadshaun says:

    If anyone has not already done so, I suggest you complete this survey on Europe.

  179. Capella says:

    More Trolling from the House of Trolls. The government has “No plans to move nuclear weapons from Scotland”. They don’t expect another referendum and they are voting to renew Trident on Monday.

  180. Papadox says:

    Just watched May giving her speel after her meeting with FM. All your going to get from her is trouble and unionism. She is not to be trusted a smiling assassin without a doubt. By the look on Nicolas face I think she saw right through May’s insincerety?

  181. Clive Scott says:

    A strand of loony yoon argument re the folly of Scottish independence is that “80% of Scottish trade is with England” with the implication that if we vote Indy then this will be reduced to zero. These are the same loony yoons that are saying “Britain (England) is open for business” and are arguing for tariff free trade with the world. Seems there will be an exception made for Scotland, what with armed guards on the border and all. Don’t you just feel the love.
    Nicola is going through the charade of “exploring all options” re continued EU membership for Scotland within UK simply to block off criticism come indyref2 that she had not tried. May 2017 council elections to eviserate the last unionist bastions then all set fair for YES come indyref2.

  182. Ian Brotherhood says:

    Why is anyone surprised that Hammond and Mundell aren’t in sync?

    Does anyone believe that, on Wednesday, Phillip Hammond’s priority was to get Bushbaby Mundell on the blower to agree a holding statement on what to do with ‘our friends in the North’? Mundell was asked about this yesterday morning on RS and sounded as though he hadn’t even bothered to rehearse an answer inside his hairy wee napper.

    FSS, these characters are winging it from one day to the next, hoping that the good folk of Remain-voting London don’t decide to start decorating Westminster Bridge with Tory heids.

    Scotland’s status is not important enough to warrant any serious thought or worry for these characters right now. May’s ‘Brexit Means Brexit’ is hardly the most sophisticated bluff ever devised, and it will lose a certain something in translation so far as our European partners are concerned – they, at their next summit, may well respond by saying ‘Go Means Go’.

    I don’t know if our FM’s most recent statement is the diplomatic equivalent of ‘Nae Merr Pish, Right?’, but that’s what May and her cronies need to be told in no uncertain terms.

  183. Macart says:


    Chicken it is then. 🙂

    Timely notification from the FM. 😉

  184. schrodingers cat says:

    Grouse Beater
    As I said, May and her right-wing cronies are playing for time. That’s the only card they have.

    true, but the eu wont wait for ever.

    the delay also gives nicola and us time as well

    we need to understand what is about to happen.
    1. the charade of negotiations will continue until brexit button is pushed, at which point, indyref2 act will be triggered.
    2. that gives us 4 months to prepare
    10000 flags (these will bring funding to individual yes groups)
    250000-500000 wbb2, i think stu is already working on it
    100000 yes stickers, they need to be CF
    100000 yes badges , they need to be CF
    1000 window flags, they need to be CF

    as many rallies as possible.

    we also need articles and info we can reference and print out
    taranaichs eu article is a good example, it needs constantly updated.
    other articles covering the other issues we will be required.

    An article by the peat worrier (or some legal expert) covering some of the legal issues we will face.
    1. will the PO (ken mcdonald) block nicola bringing forward the indyref2 act at holyrood.
    2. what is this new act of unions impact? can it be passed by WM? and in what time frame?
    3. what and if are the legal challenges WM are likely to raise against holyrood announcing indyref2

  185. msean says:

    I see we’ve been told we’ve had our vote. That’ll be it then,no more democracy lol. We’ll just have to get back into our box ‘cos the tory said so.

    Not going to happen.

  186. ronnie anderson says:

    @ Paula Rose whit wid the puffins mak o this.

  187. Liz Rannoch says:

    Where’s my post approx. 5.57

  188. K1 says:

    So basically a day of full on ‘Get back in yer box Scotland’ …

    They can all go fuck themselves.

    We need a poll tae see where the land lies, and we need one soon. And no, not to ‘rely’ on them but to shut the fuck up those bastards who do ‘rely’ on them to tell us what we want and don’t want.

    Totally sick of it al!

  189. Phronesis says:

    Scotland will march, write, debate, sing and vote its way to independence and there’s absolutely nothing that WM can do about it. Political posturing, mind games and subversion wont delay the end of this dysfunctional union that is long overdue.

    Europe is Scotland’s passport to independence and independence is Scotland’s passport to Europe- whatever relationship Scotland has with the EU is for Scotland to decide.

  190. Breeks says:

    Hate to be a smart arse and say I told you so, but if you link Indyref 2 to the triggering of article 50, you forfeit the initiative and when Article 50 is put on hold indefinitely, you leave yourselves looking for some other justification to trigger calls for the referendum. I didn’t anticipate Theresa May using Scotland as a means to delay triggering Article 50. I see why she’s PM and I’m not.

    You are left high and dry waiting for events to unfold, trying to keep momentum in our Indy campaign ticking over when there is very little you can actually do.

    We now require talks which haven’t even started yet to break down, for every avenue to be explored, for every discussion to be fruitless, and every stone to be overturned, and for every stalemate to be intolerable before we can justifiably call for Indyref2 or a UDI.

    I dunno, maybe we are playing for time too, perhaps we want the polls to be moving further our way. Maybe, but not convinced.

    I think you’ve got to start lobbing in some high caliber ultimatums Nicola. Start pencilling in some deadlines for discussions to be concluded by. Seize that initiative we are so very close to losing.

  191. Almannysbunnet says:

    Labour supporters need to wake up to the fact that they will not get the Tories out of their lives for the next twenty years, maybe never. With the meltdown of their party and the rise of UKIP in England it is all but over for them. If they don’t want the Tories and or UKIP deciding their future then it’s only going to happen in an independent Scotland. I assume Kezia knows this but is scared or unable to take the final plunge.

    After her meeting, with our FM, May said she is very unwilling to consider another referendum and pronounced “Scotland sent a very clear message” in 2014. The clear messages we sent 8 months later in the general election and in June on the EU referendum are conveniently ignored.

    We need to make it clear to the other parties that we are in the “Scotland against the tories phase” and they need to get on board at least until we are an independent country.

  192. ben madigan says:

    have been thinking over what the prime minister said: “I’m willing to listen to options and I’ve been very clear with the first minister today that I want the Scottish government to be fully engaged in our discussion.
    “I have already said that I won’t be triggering Article 50 until I think that we have a UK approach and objectives for negotiations – I think it is important that we establish that before we trigger Article 50.”

    is she saying article 50 will never be triggered? The UK will remain in the EU and Scotland will have no pretext for Indyref2?How will that play with the EU who are clamouring for the UK to get going? And with the majority in England/Wales?

  193. yesindyref2 says:

    Yes, they do the dance. If they could trust each other they’d probably be able to choreograph it so they both get what they want.

  194. Papko says:

    “o this is the class or classes that will be Project Feared again by the BBC, rancid The Graun etc. BBC Project Fearing failed quite badly in the poorest Scottish cites as we know and it’ll probably fail there again but that’s not their problem.

    On balance, Crash Gordon had full on BBC Scotland backing and he did pump even more borrowed money into easy solution tax credits, but once again, dumped it on the debt mountain. As soon as blue tories took over, it was gone.”


    PF failed badly in Scotland’s poorest cities, they were the only places with a YES majority.

    Has anything succeeded in these places in the last 50 years. Whatever it was are the SNP doing more of it, or scratching the surface at all.

    I agree with your gist that the expansion of ABC1,funded by cheap credit(Where property prices rise to meet the availability of cheap credit) thus the whole economy boomed, which led to the crash of 2008 and massive deficits, which we still struggle with today.

    Dont think the SNP are too radical about deficit reduction though, certainly whatever they say at their conference , their actual actions are very centrist.
    Could be their strategists realise that Scotland has more ABC1,than actual poor people.

  195. Dan Huil says:

    @ben madigan 6:51pm

    Exactly right about right-wing England. Basically May is giving Scotland a veto over brexit. They won’t like that down there.

  196. Dan Huil says:

    @breeks 6:45pm

    A bit pessimistic there, breeks. Because the tory leadership election was cut short we’re already a few months ahead of schedule.

  197. G H Graham says:

    Sturgeon is playing her hand badly – she should declare a 2nd referendum date now.

    Westminster is simply biding its time to fuck Scotland over for a lifetime and put independence to bed until everyone reading this thread is dead.

    London doesn’t actually believe in democracy cos if it did, it would abolish the cronies in the House of Lords now. It has no intention because those ermined cronies serve the Establishment well.

    Scotland is just a bloody constitutional nuisance and we’re actually a low priority in some ways cos they’d rather we just ate our cereal & shut up. And they have BBC propaganda, beamed into millions of homes every day to help them so they don’t even have to try that hard. And what the British State propaganda channel misses, they have London’s print media to hammer home any Imperial message they want.

    So Sturgeon should in fact, call their “respect” bluff and call it now. If she waits too long, the cronies in London will have gerrymandered laws to prevent it from happening at all.

    Fuck Westminster. Any questions?

  198. Macart says:

    @Ben Madigan

    ‘is she saying article 50 will never be triggered?’

    Nope, she’d be crucified by the Brexit electorate and she knows it. She’s playing for time and using Scotland as her excuse.

    1. Ideally she needs assurance that Scotland’s resources and revenue stream, not to mention maintain state integrity before going to the EU negotiating table.

    2. She is yet to come up with a Brexit deal to take to that table which both the UK and EU can live with.

    3. She requires time to come up with a post Brexit economy (plan)

    The Brexiteers and their voters have just chucked the UKs economy and everything it is currently based upon into a blender. They had no negotiation position planned and no macroeconomic strategy in place for going forward even if any EU exit negotiation went their way. As for the diplomatic, legal and legislative mayhem? OMG! 😮

    I believe the technical term is CLUSTERF**K.

    All of the above means PM May is in a desperate bind and her first term is already a near guaranteed soft recession with the possibility of hard recession hot on its heels not out of the question.

    So time, time is what May needs. Whether other forces beyond her control allow her this time is another matter entirely.

  199. Balaaargh says:

    Rule 35 of the 1922 Committee Procedure for the Election of the Leader of the Conservative Party states:

    “Neither of the two candidates to go forward to the general membership may withdraw without the agreement of both the Chairman of the 1922 Committee and the Board of the Party. The candidate remaining would be subject to ratification under Schedule 2, rule 7. In the event of the death of either candidate the ballot of the Parliamentary Party will be reopened and re-run.”

    Schedule 2, rule 7 of the Conservative Party Constitution states,

    “In the event of there being only one valid nomination at the close of nominations prior to the first ballot being held by the Parliamentary Party for the election of the new Leader, the election of the nominee may if so ordered by the Board be ratified by a ballot of the Party Members and Scottish Party Members to be held within one month of the close of nomination.”

    And that can’t be the real Theresa May in Edinburgh today because the real one put their name to an open letter in the Telegraph in 2005 which said,

    “It is not too late for the parliamentary party to find a way of involving grassroots members in the Conservative Party’s most important decisions. Any proposals that do not facilitate democratic involvement deserve to be defeated.”

    This individual who was welcomed by NS today is not the Leader of the Conservative Party as per their own rules and has no claim to be the Prime Minister. And our Queen Liz has been scammed into giving this person the title! this must surely be a criminal matter…?

  200. Luigi says:


    Article 50 will be stalled until the end of the year, but it will not be put on hold indefinitely. Why? Four big reasons.

    The EU
    The financial markets
    17 million OUT voters

    Sorry mate, with that kind of pressure, it just ain’t going to happen. What’s the hurry? The only imperative is if Scotland get hauled out of Europe, any delay in Article 50 and we have more time for public opinion to consolidate for independence.

  201. Edward says:

    So here it is
    May’s visit was more of a PR exercise to play to the London media (including BBC in Scotland, who used it as expected)
    It was a waste of jet fuel

    May has no intention of Scotland being involved in Brexit talks. Why would Scotland want to sit there in the room while David Davies attempts to get a deal to allow access to the single market, while not having free movement of people.

    The only reason May is allowing Scotland to ‘participate’ is to have a fall guy for the frothing racist leave campaigners, if the UK has to accept free movement of people.

    May wants to have a tight control over Scotland and is not interested in Scotland cutting a deal with the EU, that would enable Scotland to remain in the EU, while the rest of the UK is outside.

    May is more interested in preserving her precious Union

    Nicola Sturgeon has to address the people of Scotland and explain clearly the options , being either to remain in the UK and outside the EU, which may or may not have access to the EU single market, or to become independent and remain a member of the EU with all that goes with EU membership, including the free unfettered movement of goods to and from the EU.

  202. Iain More says:

    It seems to me that the Tories are playing for time on Brexit, until 2018 at least so they can hit us with both Brit Nat BS barrels and the kitchen sink, i.e the end of the WW1 propaganda Union Jack waving from John of Groats to Lands End BS with a very liberal rewriting of the industrialised slaughter of it.

    It also gives them two years to drag us all into another war or am I just being cynical?

    Call their bluff NS!

  203. jimnarlene says:

    A sang for Teresa…Richard Cheese, killing in the name of.

  204. heedtracker says:

    “Could be their strategists realise that Scotland has more ABC1,than actual poor people.”

    Maybe Paps. The issue begins to the address the question, are there enough progressive liberal lefty middle and upper middle Scots, willing to make the biggest change of their very comfortable Scottish lives? That’s the real challenge for Sturgeon. It also explains why the whole of the teamGB hugged tight the fridge left in Scotland, last Scottish election. Never hear about them now though. UKOK funny that.

    SLabour’s great extinction in their Scotland region says several things but above all else, it shows independence is coming. Its just a bit slow that’s all. Or, just one of red tory Gordo’s great legacies.

    English socio economics of “I’m posh so vote Tory” isn’t really that big either side of the border. Barely a quarter of the electorate vote toryboy and they even had cheat (allegedly) last GE.

    Ruth Davidson’s a fcuking idiot/sock puppet but then that’s all toryboy world needs in Scotland. Its the establishment, the great UKOK self preservation society that’s the core of teamGB toryboy world, and they have massive wealth and privilege to defend.

    Shoring themselves up with a wealthy rump I’m alright jack middle class is coming under huge Brexit pressure too. The red tories are losing the Labour party to JC and without the neo fascist horror show that is the BBC Scotland led Scotcho media, they’d have lost Scotland too.

    Ofcourse Scots can rebuild our economy. We just have to shake of slobs like this twerp

    Vote YES 2 Paps:D

  205. Croompenstein says:

    The Scottish Affairs Committee are looking for written submissions as part of an inquiry into Scotland’s place in Europe…

    One word ought to do it 🙂

  206. CameronB Brodie says:

    So our FM is a fan of Cruella?

    Oi Duncy boy. Less of the politics of das Man (of inauthenticity), if you please.

  207. Gary45% says:

    Not sure what music to go along with TM, but she could play it on the old Hammond organ!!
    Indy Ref 2 AYE
    “Maggie” May, yur teas oot.

  208. Artyhetty says:

    re:GH Graham@7.16pm
    Inclined to agree with you there. I suspect though, that we don’t know all that T.M threatened us with today, and Nicola will have the measure of things. May wants to be seen to be diplomatic, in the eyes of the EU, when we all know that she will be nothing of the sort when the chips are down. She will drag Scotland out of the EU, scrap human rights, and stamp on Scotland very very hard as soon as.

    So, what to do. The tories have made it clear that Scotland cannot be in the EU unless independent, so the yoons will be working on a plan, as you say, gerrmandering new laws, to stop any new referendum in Scotland. I can’t imagine them allowing Scotland to stay in the EU, and wave bye bye to their precious UKok union.

    A few weeks, a few months, things are moving fast, and some civil servants might already have changed their holiday plans to help out their WM masters.

  209. yesindyref2 says:

    Mmmmmmmmmmm, rattling cages is such fun, specially when you have the whip hand – and know when to take your time. It’s getting rattles!

  210. Valerie says:

    Mac art and Luigi

    That’s exactly how I’m reading it. Yes, it’s a game of poker, but Nicola is the one with the winning cards.

    Lest we forget, who was one of the first people she phoned on 24 June? Sadiq Khan. London has to try and hold onto that financial passporting hub, it is crucial.

    If May had any sense or practical approach, she would be thinking damage control is the order. A velvet divorce, free trade between our two countries. Passporting via Edinburgh, sensible negotiations of assets and debt.

    If not, Indy, with no none of the above, and ram your debt, Engerlund. Capital flight etc…..

  211. Dr Jim says:

    I wonder if they’ll pull the one about being defenceless against the space aliens again I thought that was a good one

    Pod people, we could have Pod people, the SNP worker drones will invade your house after you’ve been drugged and replace you with a cloned being

    The only crap they’ve got left is more threats but this time they’ve no chance of anybody falling for it

    The FM might as well call it now, those who are against it won’t change and Mini May Davidson will run around stirring up the Orange lodge and the Mad Mental Rangers Corner, but those who are for it already know what they’re voting and I believe it will be a good high number this time especially when all the businesses come out for us for a change (except Ian Wood and Michelle Mone of course)

    Last time we started at around 30% and got 45% this time we’re at 53% so could end up above 60%

    If Mundell’s on the telly every 5 minutes mouthing off that’s a guarantee the panic’s on

  212. Valerie says:

    BTW, for those on Twitter that follow SNP folk, they are being quite ‘assertive’.

    Angus MacNeil tweeted all the news outlets saying he hoped they knew that ‘mandateless Mays views on indyref2 are irrelevant’

    Pat Kane tweeted that May was calling out bluff of SG on indyref2. Quick as a flash Nicola responded.

    That would assume we are bluffing. We are not.

    I’m ok with how things are going. Folk are getting jittery, and I get that.

  213. Paula Rose says:

    Just a wee point – Theresa May’s shoes are an insult.

  214. gus1940 says:

    Somebody earlier suggested that Boris Davis and Fox are being set up to fail.

    I don’t know about Davis and Fox but I reckon it is a distinct possibility that May knows that Boris will make an absolute a-se of himself and the country at which point she will sack him knowing that he has driven the final nail into the coffin of his political career.

    Incidentally what is Adam Werrity doing these days?

  215. stewartb says:

    Ian @5.22pm on UK balance of payments:

    The UK’s negative balance of payments is in my view a key reason why, despite Unionist claims that England subsidises Scotland (!), there is such determination to keep Scotland in the UK.

    The Scotch Whisky Association reports that in 2015 the export of whisky contributed £3.8bn to the UK’s balance of trade. It goes on to note: “Without the success of Scotch, the UK’s trade deficit of almost £35bn would be 11% larger.” (–-a-vital-uk-industry/#.V4k2SFfw_R0 ). And for context, according to on 10 May 2016: “UK trade deficit hits eight-year high as goods sector drags.”

    From a UK government perspective, this is one obvious reason why the union with Scotland is so ‘precious’!

  216. schrodingers cat says:

    the euref result moved many nos to yes

    the election of another thatcher will have the same effect..

    perhaps it is seeing this thatcher look alike which is causing these nos to move to yes..

    in which case, dont call her therisa, or may or whatever.. call a spade a spade…

    from now on she is just…. thatcher

  217. Rock says:

    “Because the cold, hard, inescapable truth is that Scotland is going to have to choose a Union, and it’s going to have to do it pretty soon.”

    That is why have been saying that the “experts commission” is basically a waste of time and money.

    The choice is crystal clear to anyone with a bit of common sense. It is not rocket science.

    Scotland in the UK outside the EU.


    Scotland in the EU outside the UK.

  218. Iain says:

    The bottom line is that the Scottish people are sovereign, the people of England and Wales are subjects of Madge. We can dissolve the union between the kingdom of Scotland and the kingdom of England if we so deem. A referendum is the right of the Scottish people, also we have a right of self determination under United nations laws and the European human rights law’s. Mrs May does not dictate to the sovereign people of Scotland.

  219. Valerie says:


    Yes, Alex Massie definitely thinks Boris is being set up to fail. It’s a possibility all 3 of the brexiteers are there to suffer, and to be frank, none inspire in the brains or diplomacy department.

    So, from that point of view, it’s a risky strategy. You send in the 3 who gambled the economy?

    I watched a good bit of Treasury Select Committee from 12 July, subject being – Financial stability.

    Boy, did Rees-Mogg try and get his knife into Carney! But Carney is a smart, cool.customer, and everything is in his audit trail.

    The Brexiteers basically hate Carney because his considered, professional advice is that the UK had a net gain from being in the EU.

  220. defo says:

    “Incidentally what is Adam Werrity doing these days?”

    Renewing his passport, and stocking up on lube !

  221. CameronB Brodie says:

    Scotland’s position will most definitely be at the back of the bus, on the Brexit road to a diminished and increasing Dickensian ‘Greater England’. Thanks for the Rosa Parks image.

  222. shiregirl says:

    Not on facebook or twitter, but re who is in the running for the SNP Deputy Leadership…my guess is Stan Collymore. Left field, I grant you, but a better guess than Frances Barber.


  223. defo says:

    schrodingers cat.

    Thatcher works, but

    Cruella suits her better.

  224. defo says:

    I do have form re abusive monikering.

    I started ‘Flipper’, posting as ‘Flyingscott’ on the hootsmon back in the good old days of Unionist baiting.

  225. Breeks says:

    @ Luigi 7:27pm

    What’s the hurry?

    I’ve been waiting 7 long f!*%#ng years trying to get Fergus Ewing to answer a simple fecking question.
    I am still waiting after 8 years for John Swinney to answer the question he was actually asked.
    I have been waiting nearly 4 years for Paul Wheelhouse to answer a different fecking question.
    I have recently asked Calum Kerr an urgent question 2 months ago and still wait a fecking answer.

    Should I go on? Because I could…

    My business has been rotting in interminable stasis because these hapless clowns won’t do their fecking jobs and apply themselves to the tasks right under their fecking noses. Yet you would have me believe this is the crack A-team which is supposed to outsmart the cunning Westminster Box of Tricksters and wrestle free our independence from the evil clutches of the all seeing Minions of the British Empire is it?

    As a committed Independentist, who should I have faith in? A hopeless dysfunctional SNP which seems incapable of answering the most simple rudimentary questions, and hasn’t got the independence ball into the net in decades? Or the cheating weasels from Westminster who colluded with the media to run circles around us in 2014 and subvert our precious YES campaign with a load of festering pish delivered by inarticulate dullards who couldn’t throw a noose around an idea if they ever inadvertently flushed one out from cover?

    How feeble, slimy and hateful does the crooked, one legged, half blind, incontinent and foul mouthed Unionism have to become before the SNP can actually manage to get the better of it? Are we waiting for old age and decrepitude to take its toll and hope that makes the telling difference?

    And before you say “Ah but look at the SNP majorities in Holyrood and Westminster!”, I say yes. Progress. Terrific. The SNP certainly got us to the brink in 2014 and then watched and said nothing as the BBC stole Christmas from right in front of our eyes.

    Now we are lining up the siege engines for another go, but it’s the same pedestrian pace and clumbersome, predictable deployment. Our enemies are ready for us. They can see us coming again, and on we plod…

    It’s not a question of haste. It’s not a question of loyalty. It’s a question of faith, and when it comes to the SNP, I’m sorry but I have so very little faith left. Our independence should be safe in our own hands by now, but it isn’t. We could yet lose everything.

  226. defo says:

    There wouldn’t have been Indyref 1 without the gradualist approach.
    Fuck, we would be sitting here lumbered with Slab running the show, instead of them running themselves into the ground.

    Your beefs are yours.
    The Scottish peoples votes say they are happy with the competence of SNP minority, and majority government.
    There is only one show in town, unless you want to start up a party !

  227. yesindyref2 says:

    If it’s any consolation I gave up sending emails to the SNP. One reply, the rest ignored, not even a polite acknowledgement. And before that the White Paper didn’t include questions I know were asked to YES Scotland. All it needed was to put the question in and say “no answer currently”, at least the people (businesses) would have know their concerns were “noted”. Quite a few from people who voted YES in spite of that.

  228. Thepnr says:

    Cruella Thatcher is much like the old one, she cares about us as much as I care about her.

    Balaaargh @ 7:23 pm

    Makes a very good point. I doubt she is even a legitimate Prime Minister considering:

    Rule 35 of the 1922 Committee Procedure for the Election of the Leader of the Conservative Party states:

    “Neither of the two candidates to go forward to the general membership may withdraw without the agreement of both the Chairman of the 1922 Committee and the Board of the Party.

    Plenty more in his post and is worth reading. However that above is enough for food for thought. Neither candidate can withdraw?

    So what of Leadsom then?

    Well of course she never withdrew, she was flung overboard same as was Boris Johnson. Remember who we all dealing with here, not an elected member of Parliament but the establishment. Yes, those nameless bastards that decide all our futures no matter what we think nor whether they are elected or not. They make the rules we just have to live by them. Never forget that.

    I’ve had enough as I’m sure many of you have. The ship might look big and safe while the sea look very cold but the ship is sinking. If you know what is good for you grab that lifebelt and jump overboard before it may be too late.

    I had my fill under Thatcher 1 and I will do my damnedest to ensure I don’t live under a Thatcher 2. I am absolutely certain that it will not be so long before people actually have their eyes open and see that we are ruled by lizards! I prefer to think of them as leeches, big fat leeches, we can rid ourselves of the parasites though through the ballot box. We still have that much.

    An Independence vote is the only weapon in my armor. That will be enough.

  229. Papko says:

    heedtracker says:

    Maybe Paps. The issue begins to the address the question, are there enough progressive liberal lefty middle and upper middle Scots, willing to make the biggest change of their very comfortable Scottish lives?

    I am a tad cynical re “progressive types”, all the liberal pseudo anarchists I know, have bought nice houses in the country, bit of land a few cars, they are very progressive as long as their house price is rising, they are very sympathetic with the “poor” , so long as your not from a council estate nearby and “trespassing”.

    Scotsindy differs from other movements, in its heavily based on a “better living standards”, the message hit the mark in Dundee West, but not in Angus, (or any other of the 28 areas)

    So those that think indyref2 is a simple re run of ref1, are mistaken.
    the ground has shifted, the UK may well be getting hardball from the EU, and nothing is at all like the Leave side foretold, namely immigration.

    What will happen is that some Euro fudge will be found, with free trade and open borders save a few face saving caveats, come 2018 you wont know if you in the EU or out of it.

    NS knows a second referendum loss is fatal, if she calls it with such uncertainty, anything can happen, so why risk it ?

    the threat of one is a deal stronger than the execution as she may gather some bargaining chips.

    She has to be careful, we have seen the mayhem of the last month and the instability, it will be worse prior to ref2 , if England is in despair, most Scots will rally to the Union, no matter how much they loath a snobby Tory Englishman, they wont stab them in the back.

  230. Brian Doonthetoon says:

    Hi Phronesis.

    You typed,
    “Scotland will march, write, debate, sing and vote its way to independence…”

    Here’s the song…

  231. Robert Louis says:

    Just trying to imagine what it is Thatcher mk2 is thinking of doing to resolve this clear difference between Scotland and England regarding the EU. People are asking how could Scotland stay in the UK, yet be in the EU?

    Is a partial answer to be found in the Channel island of Jersey? From Wikipedia,

    “The Commission have confirmed in a written reply to the European Parliament in 2003 that Jersey is within the Union as a European Territory for whose external relationships the United Kingdom is responsible. Jersey is not fully part of the European Union but has a special relationship with it, notably being treated as within the European Community for the purposes of free trade in goods”

    U have often thought that possibly the crown dependency route may offer a solution to London in some ways.

    However, even with that technically, Jersey is NOT part of the UK, and so the Scottish-anglo union of 1707 would end anyway. Given the circumstances, would London see such a move as a compromise they would be prepared to make, in order to keep the nukes in Scotland, and ‘notionally’ still ‘have’ Scotland?

    Either way, I’m just thinking aloud, and besides I don’t think such a solution would provide what Scots actually want. London keeps talking about access to the single market, as though that is ALL that is required, but of course as we all know, there are so many other facets to the EU, agriculture funding, science funding (which is already being hit badly by the brexit decision), freedom of movement, trade, communication etc.

    Most ordinary folk want ALL aspects of the EU, not just ‘access to the single market’.

    Right now, I think the SNP can continue with the ‘talks’ thing for a few weeks, but I really do not think they should not wait too long. They have many advantages right now, but make no mistake the London propaganda machine has already started, and who knows in 6 months, people will no longer care.

    The SNP should not dilly dally too long, as many will not forgive them, if they fudge this issue.

  232. Robert Louis says:

    Apologies forgot the link to wikipedia regarding Jersey

  233. Famous15 says:

    One little thing I got from the Bute House meeting is the slow dawning in Unionists that the Scottish Government must be more important than they thought. We may be getting set up but they need us in the frame and a gulp of humble pie was the price they paid to bait the trap for us.

    They wish Boris to bodge the Brexit and Scotland to carry the can and so end any talk of independence for 300 years.

    So softly softly when dealing with our imperial masters. They may not be too clever but with our media thay do not have to be.

    Tonight Reporting Scotland was particularly embarrassing especially if you have the smallest amount of self respect.Dry boak indeed.

  234. Rock says:


    “So May won’t trigger Article 50 until the Scottish Government agree with the terms of brexit. Nice move by May…never leave and blame the jocks.”

    That is what I thought as well.

    The British Establishment does not want to leave the EU.

    All it wants is to blackmail the EU in granting them more concessions.

    Fortunately, the EU are having none of it.

    They will try to use the Scots as scapegoats but unlike the Scots, the English “plebs” are very militant and will not take it lying down.

    We should not fudge the issue and call an independence referendum now.

    The sooner the matter is settled, the better for both Scotland and the EU.

    The British Establishment wants to leave everyone in limbo just to gain time before “independent” England is declared bankrupt.

  235. Thepnr says:

    Hey folks, if Independence is your goal maybe best not to eat off your hand in order to be rid of your shackles.

    We have already had this with Greens, SSP and SNP. It is all bullshit so please don’t fall for it. Next thing you know you will be eating each other from within.

    We are better than that and anyway we have a responsibility to everyone that believes Independence offers something better. I believe it does and will do everything I can to make that future possible. We all can do something, can’t we?

  236. CameronB Brodie says:

    You are posting comments too quickly. Slow down.

    Is anyone else experiencing this?

    I got that message with my first post today. I thought, if that’s a hint I’m no taking it. 😉

  237. yesindyref2 says:

    @Robert Louis
    From the BBC :

    In a statement, Guernsey’s government said: “The majority of Guernsey’s trade is through the UK and this trading relationship is not in question.

    “However, in order to remain as stable as possible, Guernsey will need to seek to replace the current trading relationship in goods with the EU with some other arrangements.

    “This will be dependent on the new relationship that the UK seeks with the EU.”

    So it seems not, Guernsey and Jersey are dragged out along with the UK, same as us.

  238. carjamtic says:

    When someone,you barely know,invites you to drive off a cliff with them and It’s not Thelma or Louise,the answer no hun,but thanks for asking is ok,but in this instance,Fukc Off Ya Daft Auld Cnut is better.


  239. Luigi says:

    If Scotland gets “set up” to take the blame for delaying BREXIT so what?

    It’s a bloody VETO. A double lock – you know the very thing the yoons went into contortions to avoid before the EU vote! The fascist PRESS doo sooth may go apeshit, but actually it makes Scotland very powerful in the eyes of the world. It would go down badly in England but very well in Europe. 🙂

    And don’t worry about any delays to indyref2 – it will come along in due course – at exactly the right time. The ducks are carefully being lined up. 🙂

    The SG will certainly be baited by an increasingly desperate WM, but cool heads are needed and we have many of these at Holyrood.

  240. yesindyref2 says:

    The music still plays and it’s May and Sturgeon dancing around the chair. With any luck Sturgeon is wearing a sensor and the chair is rigged to follow her around and be pointed in her direction.

  241. Ken500 says:

    It’s a question that a majority in Scotland voted NO.

    Slagging off the SNP members who believe in Independence will not help.

    Hammond laughed at the thought of Scotland having a Navy, and called the area round Glasgow a wasteland. Lossiemouth is being used to illegally bomb the Middle East against the majority wishes. Faslane is costing £Billions. Westminster is sanctioning and starving vulnerable people.

    Osbourne was taxing the Oil sector at 60/80% when the price had fallen 75%. Losing thousands of jobs. If Scotland is out of the EU and in the UK. Scotland will be dragged into a terrible recession and depression by the Tories. They are despicable liars. Scotland does not vote for them but gets their illegal disgusting policies. They could not make a bigger mess if they tried.

    Never trust a Tory. The majority of people in the UK/NI wanted to stay in the EU. That doesn’t bode well for the Tories. An unelected Gov who committed electoral fraud to win. Never trust a Tory/Unionist making false promises. Look what happened to the last ones. Away with their tales and their tails between their legs. Scotland saw them off and will do it again and again. Independence when it comes will be even better.

    When May Thatcher was in charge of the borders and immigration policy. No one could get in or out of Britain for the queues. Taking hours. They had to let people go in and out without checks because of the chaos. A total disaster. The Tories are not elected and will not last very long. If Labour could get it’s act together in England. It doesn’t look very likely.

    Scotland is still going it’s own way and the SNP is making a difference. Standing up for Scotland. Westminster can’t illegally take Scotland out of the EU it would be against International Law. One International war criminal getting their comeuppance. May send them homewards to think again.

  242. Socrates MacSporran says:

    I have a former school-mate, who left at 15, got an NCB electrical apprenticeship and served his time, including long spells under-ground, before getting an NUM bursary, going to university and qualifying as an electrical engineer.

    Now 70 and retired, he lives in some style in the South East of England, between London and Brighton. He is a millionaire, but likes to claim he is still the same guy who went down the pit in Ayrshire.

    We email each other regularly – this is his response to my latest piece on “Mother Theresa” ascending to the Premiership and how I feel this makes Indyref2 more likely.


    Who is the moron with one brain cell who has already dubbed Mrs. May? (I referred to her as “May Thatcher”) The show is not yet on the road and you’re telling me the nutters are active. Tell them to get a job. Tell me a politician who does not speak with a forked tongue, it comes with the job .You can have a bet now, no 2nd referendum before 2020 and the SNP will lose again. The SNP star is a dying star a bit like Labour and the SNP having failed to really turn Scotland around will be just another “chip paper”.
    There is no way 5million or 3million voters are going to dictate to 60 million or 45 million voters. Get REAL.
    On the free movement of PEOPLE not labour, raise your head above the heather, the fences are going up all over Europe. (I had suggested the UK would not get a trade deal with the EU unless they accepted the free movement of labour – (unfortunately, my mate cannot seem to get the difference between Eu citizens and non-EU citiens).
    Economic migrants are streaming across the EU bringing death and destruction to all and sundry. N.B. they do not want to go to Scotland, I wonder why?
    We, the UK will negotiate our own agreement with the E.U. if it still exists so all this shite about Norwegian or Australian systems is just idle journalists filling space.
    Just be happy with what you have got and the Barnet (sic) formula and pray the price of oil goes up.
    Stop putting the blame Westminster and Austerity and tell your minority government to follow suite and work for the betterment of the whole of society starting with your NHS , your police force and your transport  infrastructure (are the trams running in Edinburgh on the completed routes).
    Now for Boris,  I would love to know the real story behind all the goings on, but his back stabber is now history and good riddance. I think Mother T. was quite cute and put the Brexiteers in charge of the negotiations. Jeane Claude and his club of criminals will have twitching arseholes. Wait and you will see Mrs. Merkel will be first to break ranks as ordered by German industry.
    You live in your own little world up there in Scotland, Lucky you, enjoy it while it lasts.


    I fear he has been down there too long, and has gone native.

  243. CameronB Brodie says:

    call me dave
    I was perversly amused the other day when I noticed Summerhall, “a creative hub for the arts” in Edinburgh, was flying the EU flag at half-mast. I’m wicked that way though. 🙂

  244. Calum McKay says:

    Trust Nicola or May, you do the math!

    Scotalnd run by English tories out of the EU or Scotland run by a Scottish left of centre moderate Socialists leaning Goverment within the EU and ou of the uk.

    That is the question!

  245. Woody says:

    If the nats manage to convince the scots people that the EU is more important to Scotland than the rest of the UK is then fair play to them. Whence this aodration of the EU, from a supposedly “anti austerity” party ?

  246. Stoker says:

    HEY FOLKS, do you think we could give this a wee shove over the line? Let’s put a cat among the pigeons!
    Invoke Article 50 of The Lisbon Treaty immediately

  247. Thepnr says:

    @Socrates MacSporran

    Yer mates opinion is probably not too far from mainstream English opinion. That’s exactly why we need out of the UK and sorry but fuck him and those with similar attitudes.

  248. Ian Brotherhood says:

    @Socrates MacSporran –

    Two sides to every correspondence, aye, but if your old schoolmate’s response is judged as it stands? you are a remarkably tolerant individual.

    Perhaps your friend should reflect on the possibility that your exchange is more of a microcosm of the current situation than he would care to admit.

    Ignorance and arrogance – a toxic combination.

  249. call me dave says:

    An army group in Turkey says it has taken control of the country, with bridges closed in Istanbul and aircraft flying low over Ankara.
    PM Binali Yildirim earlier denounced an “illegal action” by a military “group”, stressing it was not a coup. He said that the government remained in charge.

    Traffic has been stopped from crossing both the Bosphorus and Fatih Sultan Mehmet bridges in Istanbul.

    There are reports of gunshots in the capital Ankara.

  250. Polscot says:

    @Brian Doonthetoon
    15 July, 2016 at 9:20 pm

    Thanks for the link. That youtube clip takes me back to watching the Corries on TV in the ’70s, still something stirs inside listening to their singing. I can’t imagine the BBC commissioning a Corries style show these days.

    The song Liberty by the Corries is also a great anthem.

  251. cearc says:

    O/T It looks like the Turkish Army have re-introduced their role of protecting the secular state that Mustafa Kemal charged them with.

  252. Ian Brotherhood says:

    @Stoker –

    Living up to your handle, eh?


    Just signed.

    I was 99,995.

  253. Ruby says:

    ‘I want the Scottish government to be fully engaged in our discussion.’

    Why on earth would Theresa May want the SG to be fully engaged in their discussion?

    The SG really doesn’t have a mandate to engage in Brexit discussions.

    What is there to discuss re Brexit?

  254. Thepnr says:

    @call me dave

    Feck me, looks like a coup attempt going on. Extraordinary I think, civil war may loom and with the mess already is Syria? Blair has a lot to answer for, all the western leaders do. I hate the lot of them.

  255. Hamish100 says:


    the ruks have told us they don’t need us as wee are too poor etcetera. RUK’S more interested in immigration and tory party politics.

  256. heedtracker says:

    She has to be careful, we have seen the mayhem of the last month and the instability, it will be worse prior to ref2 , if England is in despair, most Scots will rally to the Union, no matter how much they loath a snobby Tory Englishman, they wont stab them in the back.”

    I Don’t think that really works though Paps. Endemic generational poverty isn’t some kind of God given plan for Scots. We know that succesive red and blue tory governments have funneled Scots money and resources to the south east of England and they’ve “given” some back to their scrounger region in Barnett.

    Enough of England always votes tory. Scotland never has. That’s what the red tories are currently raging at Corbyn, JC’s Labour will never get elected in England again if the red tories don’t own it. Its that simple.

    Anyway, why can’t 54 million English people fend for themselves Paps? The idea that they will be in Brexit “despair” and pleading for Scots help is rather fanciful, to say the least. Also, how would it would it work? We’re the scrounger region that needs them, not vice versa. It’ll be the IMF for Chancellor Hammond, not their scrounger sweaties.

  257. Stoker says:

    Huge grin oan ma puss! When i put it up here it was sitting at 99,928 and within less than 25-minutes it has smashed right through to 100,047 and rising. They don’t control the game, we do!

  258. Thepnr says:

    What’s the world coming too?

    If you think you have the answer please let me know.

  259. Ian Brotherhood says:

    @heedtracker (10.30) –

    ‘Endemic generational poverty isn’t some kind of God given plan for Scots.’


    You’ve scripted some belters in your time here, but that’s definitely in my top five, nae borra.

    If I had the dosh it’d appear on billboards nationwide first-thing Monday.

  260. Ruby says:

    Socrates MacSporran

    Does your mate spend a lot of time with Michelle Mone? It’s sounds as if they would get on very well.

  261. Big Jock says:

    So to sum up today’s meeting. Trap, trap,trap trap!

    Launch escape shuttle Nicola.

  262. defo says:


    Hell, in a hand cart ?

  263. Ian Brotherhood says:

    BBC World Service covering Turkish situation right now…

    Seems it’s all happening via social media, even on Turkish msm, the telly presenters are openly using their phones to find out what’s happening, trying to communicate with Erdogan…

  264. Wullie B says:

    I’ve seen this doing the rounds so I thought I’d add to it:

    I’m 41. I live in Scotland. I never have and never will vote Tory. I want to leave the EU. This is my future & I want to decide it.

    However, if the EU issue can help Scotland become independent, I’m willing to go with it until we have our own EU referendum as an independent country

  265. Thepnr says:

    No sympathy whatsoever for Erdogan but this is just another disaster in the making. I hope not too many innocents become victims of what is after all. Just fucking politics.

  266. Ian Brotherhood says:

    Okay…just for the record…

    It’s 22.50 as I noted this, but the live interview (on BBC World Service) with a Turkish correspondent was cut.

    No gap.

    Now broadcasting recorded material about the recent shooting in the US…

    Now back to the ‘live’ coverage (22.53) in Turkey, and an English voice is providing live coverage again…

  267. HandandShrimp says:

    Hammond, May and Fluffy Muddle falling over themselves to say what I am not entirely sure. All I hear when they speak is “A vote for independence is Scotland’s only choice”

    Fine by me


  268. Fireproofjim says:

    Tommy Sheppard has just.announced he will stand as deputy leader of the SNP.
    I am a huge fan.

  269. North chiel says:

    ” Ruby says @1024 pm” .I entirely agree Ruby , the Brexit ” negotiation” is exclusively a matter
    for the ” UK” gov.However, obviously now the new PM is attempting to involve the Scotgov
    for ” tactical reasons” . My counter to that would be for the Scot gov to indicate to TM/PM that the UK’ gov.’s ” Scottish representative” Mundell should be ” sent in to bat” for Scotland having been extensively briefed by the Scotgov as to exactly what our requirements are ie . ” Full retained membership of the EU for Scotland”. ( absolutely nothing less). Thereafter, if Mundell is unable to “negotiate a settlement “acceptable to NS/ Scotgov , move to Indyref 2 option.

  270. Bob Mack says:

    Well well well. Just when you think it could not get more interesting Turkey has a coup. Cue Boris. This could go anywhere.

  271. Dr Jim says:


    You asked the question Woody, now here’s the answer
    Scotland has never been allowed representation in the EU by it’s own Ministers, the UK England has always refused permission, now you figure out the answer Woody, and if you don’t see it yet ask yourself another question, what have we got that the world wants, and it’s not just oil

    One more question for you to ask yourself why when every country in the EU welcomed the First Minister with open arms did the media try to make it look otherwise and why are the Tories keeping up the threats when they themselves know they’re in the shit and none of this was supposed to happen and that’s why Cameron has done a runner as fast as his little Tory legs can carry him and dumped the problem on anybody but himself

  272. CameronB Brodie says:

    Iain @ 8:28pm
    Though the people of Scotland may technically be sovereign, I would suggest that apathy, ignorance and 300 years of ‘soft-coercion’ has convinced the majority otherwise. Or not, if they are politically disengaged, which I would suggest is the position of most voters. We are British after all! 😉

  273. Cal says:

    If May’s strategy is to delay Article 50 and blame it on the Scots then things are going to get interesting in England quite soon. I wouldn’t fancy being a Scottish voice there when the Kippers get restless. Reports of racial abuse of Scots in England will become commonplace and fuel resentment and indignation back home in Scotland. And rightly so.

    Meanwhile, the Tory Brexiteers and the 27 EU leaders will get increasingly desperate as will UK business (they hate uncertainty). The First Minister won’t need to do anything except do her best to try to find a compromise – she won’t find one of course, the control freak British establishment don’t do compromise when it comes to power sharing.

    Sqeezed from all sides May will be forced to relent and bite the A 50 bullet. Then the EU will play hard ball (hopefully). This will make the UK economy worse and the English nationalist sentiment will be enflamed (English nationalism was after all at the heart of the EU ref. A fact that explains the low key nature of the whole thing in Scotland, our 67% turnout c.f. 73% in England and, of course, our comfortable majority for Remain). English nationalism is not a pretty sight to your average Scottish inhabitant and their antics will result in us finding them and their politics even more repellent than they are at present. There’s a nice virtuous/viscous circle there; a kind of downward spiral if you will!

    Yes, the whole mess they have created for themselves is very entertaining indeed and they so richly deserve it bitter fruits.

  274. Dr Jim says:

    Ruth Wishart tweeted:

    Nice of the Prime Minister to pop up to tell us what we can’t do but she shouldn’t get ideas above her station

    Nice one Ruth

  275. Cadogan Enright says:

    @Rev “If there haven’t been as many posts on this site as people might expect at a time of such incredible political turmoil, it’s because Wings isn’t at heart a commentary blog. We don’t do a lot of flat-out opinion pieces, tending to concern ourselves more with measurable, empirical facts”

    And that’s why I follow the Rev, GA Ponsonby and Prof Roberson – of course the Rev is the most fun – but the other two are pretty devastating over and over again

    GA on the ball here again

    And Prof Roberson

  276. Ruby says:

    North chiel

    Agreed this Brexit negotiating malarky is definitely a job for ‘The Secretary of State for Scotland’.

  277. Valerie says:

    Very interesting response to Turkey from USA, non committal. Not one NATO ally has come out against the coup.

    What a piece of work Erdogan is, telling people to take to the streets.

    You wonder if it is a people’s uprising, because Erdogan really was criminal in his activities.

  278. Chic McGregor says:

    “No Article 50 until Scotland agrees.”

    Sounds like the much denied Scottish veto on BREXIT is alive and well after all.

    How will the UKIP and Tory Euorsceptics react to that reality?

  279. mike cassidy says:

    Here’s how Euractiv reports the Sturgeon/May meeting.

    And this is a repost of the Euractiv link to one ‘insider’s’ assessment that May’s brexit trio are there to play the patsy role.

  280. Thepnr says:

    If you never understood what control of the media means to those in power, watch now what is happening in Turkey. The media and especially state controlled media is the real power.

    A lesson for all.

  281. Papko says:

    2Anyway, why can’t 54 million English people fend for themselves Paps? The idea that they will be in Brexit “despair” and pleading for Scots help is rather fanciful, to say the least. Also, how would it would it work? We’re the scrounger region that needs them, not vice versa. It’ll be the IMF for Chancellor Hammond, not their scrounger sweaties.2

    Fair enough Heedtracker , but I don’t see Scotland vs England , I see Britain and the British.

    And on that point we will never agree it seems.

    Your perspective , is strongest held in areas of deprivation , I would argue that in such areas a fair % people are by default anti-British and ant-establishment .

    What the Labour party realised under Blair is most people are bothered about their mortgages,the NHS, and their living standards.
    And whatever colour of Tory party is offering that,(seemingly there is not much difference between the parties now anyway) will win the day.

    if the SNP thought “eradicating poverty” would win them votes they would of put the tax rates up. they know all too well that Scots like to think they have a social conscience , they just don’t want to pay for it themselves.

  282. defo says:

    Erdogan on his way here. Germany said get to.

  283. shiregirl says:

    Trying to contact my in laws in Turkey – they retired there a while back and love it. No radio stations broadcasting and dunno if the internet has been cut off?

    Better get the spare room ready…

  284. Robert J. Sutherland says:

    A lot of very good posts here today.

    I had the distinct impression that May’s meeting with Nicola today was just the boxers touching gloves before the fight.

    May realises that as far as Scotland is concerned, she is in a right pickle of the Unionists’ own making. Hence this early visit. All this “special Union” talk is just flummery, ad-libbing because she has no script ready. But make no mistake, she is the proverbial iron fist in the velvet glove. She really does mean Brexit. She would like nothing more than sign Nicola up to a Leave agenda and stick her with a trade deal + open borders and nothing more. Just enough wiggle-room to give Cruella the necessary trade deal and be able to pacify the grumbling English Leavers, leaving us as the fall guys (twice over).

    If Cruella and her Brexit Czar (who is David Davis, BTW, not BoJo the clown) really had a plan, they would be enacting it right now, but instead they are desperately playing for time. Likewise the hapless SLab and FibDem fence-sitters. Nicola & Co please note: we should not be giving any of them any respite. Keep up that momentum!

    This issue of full EU membership with full EU rights needs to be brought to a head toute-de-suite, not allowed to fester and be sucked into a Brexiteer negotiating swamp. There is no “third way”! Let’s get that settled ASAP. Then see what May, Hammond & Davis* make of their dubious supposed inclusion agenda!

    Secondly, it’s time that we started to challenge the Tories relentlessly at every possible opportunity to “put up” over Art.50. We should keep mocking them, as the original Thatcher once put it, with “are you frit?”

    *Hmm, sounds like a shyster law firm!

  285. carjamtic says:

    BoJo FFS

    Any statements yet ?

    #mindimages…….A Stradivarius being played by a gorilla.

  286. Ruby says:

    This Theresa May visit just seems like a big waste of time & money. Could she not have just Skyped?

    I’m particularly annoyed about her visit because I was held up by the police to allow her cavalcade to drive up the wrong side of the dual carriageway!

    There seemed to be a fair number of people in her party, there were about 4-5 cars.

  287. Vambomarbeleye says:

    One thing you can bet on with Westminster. As you bend down for the soap they will be right behind you.
    They have been doing us over for 3 centuries. So they are masters at it and to our shame we keep thinking their word is worth something. Its not.
    I first came across this atitude at the age of 15 as I went into the army at Woolwich. A lot of superior southerners that really thought there were above every one else. One particular obnoxious individual was disabused of that notion when he had his jaw broken for him.

  288. Ian Brotherhood says:

    Boris Johnson is now having flashbacks to all the job offers he’s had in the past…

    Too late, ya fud.

  289. North chiel says:

    “Ruby @ 1120pm” agreed then Ruby, and if the “SOS” requires some ” extra muscle” as regards
    any ” arm twisting ” requirements during the negotiations then surely ” the tank commander” could provide the Necessary ” back up” on his behalf.?

  290. Thepnr says:

    Turkey, so what? No big deal it’s a long way away. Syria in ruins along with Iraq. No big deal there both a long way away.

    See when the guy chaps on YOUR door remember to say. Who me? I seen nothing, no sir, not me, a big boy done it. I just voted for him.

  291. Ian Brotherhood says:

    Dontcha love it how the BBC can summon ‘experts’ to comment on any and every thing before anyone knows what the fuck it is that has actually happened?

    Effortlessly professional whilst morally vacuous.

    Render that in latin, and it could be their motto.

  292. Capella says:

    English people will force TM’s hand. They want to be out of the EU. The right wing of the Tory Party want out of the EU. UKIP want out. Let’s not allow her to blame us for any delay. I don’t care whether England is in the EU or not. Press the button. It’s your call.

    Reminds me of the Bill Hicks sketch “Pick Up the Gun” Creepily, youtube has a Turkish subtitled version. Maybe they’ve been watching it lately?

  293. Robert J. Sutherland says:

    Woody @ 22:03,
    You still don’t get it? Duh. One of trade czar Liam Fox’s very first shiny new “quick-fix” trade deals is going to be the Tories’ very own “I’m bending down, come and get me” TTIP-max with the USA! Plus austerity-max as the Brexiteer Titanic slowly founders.

    Jeez, old Abe had it right. Some people can’t spot their own self-interest even if it’s shoved right into their faces!

  294. Craig Browning says:

    To be fair to Willie Rennie, he admitted at a lecture to the Royal Society of Edinburgh in February that he’d rather be in the UK than the EU.

  295. heedtracker says:

    if the SNP thought “eradicating poverty” would win them votes they would of put the tax rates up. they know all too well that Scots like to think they have a social conscience , they just don’t want to pay for it themselves.

    No dear. And I cant believe that you believe that either. Tax hikes in less than 10 % of the UK economy would devastate Scotland.

    Also Paps,

    “Fair enough Heedtracker , but I don’t see Scotland vs England , I see Britain and the British.

    And on that point we will never agree it seems.”

    Its too late now but England has always used the union border at Carlisle, probably from the moment this farce union kicked off, and for England only investment, infrastructure, stripping away Scottish heavy industry, nuke weapons dump and so on, all of it done by an England with very clear concepts of what borders really are.

    Project Fear, The Vow devo-max shyste, EVEL, The BBC, the UK press, Trident 2, HS2 and 3 and 4, Snatcher Thatcher 2 “jetting in” to tell us to shove our independence, all spectacular examples of what contemporary British unionism actually means. They even tried to shaft Scotland and cut Barnett with the Smith Commission farce, all that after begging us to stay too.

    Just because red and blue tory unionists like it this way Paps, doesn’t mean the rest of Scotland has to.

  296. Ruby says:

    North chiel

    That’s a perfect plan and perhaps Kezia could go along to make the tea or something.

    Oh wait a minute! What about Willie? He might want to talk about his plans for EU Ref2

  297. Papko says:

    If Scotland can claim they did not vote for Brexit, but there rights are being trampled by being dragged out.
    Why don’t we make it indyref2, that any particular region that votes stay in the UK can, and vice versa.
    that way Dundee West does not get to drag Moray-shire and the Shetlands out of the UK against there will.

  298. laukat says:

    Our First Minister really is a smart cookie and has played her cards brilliantly so far

    She clearly knew before today that if she called an Indyref before being seen to work constructively it would loose her some votes from recent converts. However the really clever part today comes in securing comes in a few ways.

    First she reduced a potential huge risk of going into an Indyref without knowing what the UK Governement wants Brexit to be. Worst case is if she called a referendum and Westminster said actually we’ve reconsidered and don’t want to go then she looks daft, probably looses and Independence is off the table for decades.

    Second for her to feed into establishing the UK Government position she needs to get the red line issues from not only the Scottish people but the Holyrood parties that represent the Scottish people. So if she says to SLab and SLibdems what are your red line issues and the UK Governement says can’t meet that then that would leave Slab and Slibdem in a very difficult place and all the time bringing more votes to Yes.

    Third its not difficult to see that the UK Government won’t be able to meet all of Scotland’s red lines. So all she has to do is pick one that Scot’s care the most about (i.e. Human Rights act) get the UK government to say no and then go for a referendum framed as reasonable Scottish Government been given an unreasonable no by a right wing government

    Fourth by establishing the UK Governments negotiating position she finds out what the UK will do in certain situations. For example around Borders with Northern Ireland and Gibralta. You would think the UK Government would have to propose a common travel area for both which instantly answers the question of what kind of border will be in place between an Independent Scotland in the EU and the rUK outside the EU. This is all excellent information to prepare the new case for Independence.

    Fifth in the last 2 days she has had 2 government ministers states that its not possible for Scotland within the UK to have a different agreement with the EU from other parts of the UK therefore Devo Max, Federalism, reverse greenlands are all dead in the water. Only Independence keeps Scotland in the EU and she hasn’t had to say it.

    Lastly going along with the negotiations give the FM the ability to secrure another Edinburgh agreemnent as at some point teh UK government will not be able to agree to a Scottish Governement read line issue. At this point the politics are either UK government is telling Scotland take what you get which they would be daft to do or lets the Scottish Government hold a referendum to either agree to the terms or get out of the UK

    She has May exactly where she wants her. May thinks she came to Edinburgh today and neutralised talk of Independence. If she sits back she might just understand that Sturgeon just wheeled her in and she didn’t even spot it. Bravo First Minister!

  299. Cadogan Enright says:

    EBC R4

    “Turkey is one of the main opponents of ISIS”


  300. defo says:

    Ruby said

    “There seemed to be a fair number of people in her party, there were about 4-5 cars.”

    I saw a couple of them, parked outside Seafield cat and dog home.

  301. Ruby says:

    Papko says:
    16 July, 2016 at 12:00 am

    If Scotland can claim they did not vote for Brexit, but there rights are being trampled by being dragged out.
    Why don’t we make it indyref2, that any particular region that votes stay in the UK can, and vice versa.
    that way Dundee West does not get to drag Moray-shire and the Shetlands out of the UK against there will.

    Ruby replies


    Another one on my Barbara Cartland list!

  302. Brian Doonthetoon says:

    North cheil – I’ve got to ask:

    What’s “with” all these extraneous “inverted commas” you’re “scattering” throughout your “comments”? Makes them “really” hard to “read”.


    Hi Woody.

    You typed,
    “If the nats manage to convince the scots people…

    With that single statement, you revealed that,
    a) you are obviously not one with sympathies for “the nats”, and
    b) you probably don’t regard yourself as one of the “scots people”.

    To be otherwise, you would have typed about the SNP and you would have referred to “Scots”, with a capital “S”.

    Kindly retreat beneath your bridge. Consider yourself sussed, in the first 5 minutes of the game. Early bath time.

  303. Vambomarbeleye says:

    Don’t think Turkey will be joining the EU any time soon.

  304. Papko says:

    “No dear. And I cant believe that you believe that either. Tax hikes in less than 10 % of the UK economy would devastate Scotland.”

    How convenient then, we will have to put of addressing generational poverty for another generation then ……

    Just like every other country in Europe does, and ever has done.
    they never put the tax up because the problem is not that bad, and them “in poverty” manage to eke out an existence, whilst leaving plenty vacancies for hundreds of thousands Europeans to work in every building site, hotel,and factory in Scotland.

    Why raising tax in 10% of the UK economy is “bad”,and removing 10% of the UK economy with Indy is “good”, with presumably a dramatic divergence in policies, and competing tax regimes .
    it may well lead to increased benefit payments for our most vulnerable, but the “stamp peyin self employed” are not going to vote for that.

    Thats another impasse , we just see things differently Heid Yin.

  305. Ruby says:

    defo says:
    16 July, 2016 at 12:08 am

    Ruby said

    “There seemed to be a fair number of people in her party, there were about 4-5 cars.”

    I saw a couple of them, parked outside Seafield cat and dog home.

    Ruby replies

    What were they doing there? Getting Cruella a new wig?

  306. Robert J. Sutherland says:


    They even tried to shaft Scotland and cut Barnett with the Smith Commission farce, all that after begging us to stay too.

    Yup, that was a very revelatory sting in the tail. On top of all the other EVEL cr*p, that one smarted.

    But you know, what goes around comes around. There’s going to be a lot more people alert to that reality next time.

    No wonder Thatch#2 (as advised by The Rt.Hon. Buffalo Gal) is desperate to avoid an indyref2. She knows she is going to lose it.

  307. Legerwood says:

    Theresa May believes in the Union therefore she came up to Scotland within 48 hours of becoming PM.

    Now think about that: she came up to Scotland. She came up not Nicola going down – summoned to meet the new PM. The PM came up not as spin would have it because she values the Union, although I am sure she does, but because of the weakness of her position vis a vis Scotland and Ms Sturgeon.

    Ms Sturgeon was elected leader of her party by the membership of her party. Ms May was not.

    Ms Sturgeon has led her party to emphatic victories in a UK General Election and in a Hollywood election. The latter may not have delivered an overall majority but still garnered more votes for the party than any previous election. Ms May has not led her party to Electoral success nor been part of an emphatic Electoral victory.

    Ms Sturgeon has led the campaign to Remain and delivered a resounding vote to Remain. Ms May was on the losing side.

    All of that and more, eg Ms Sturgeon’s reception in Europe and the support she garnered there, adds up to a weak position of Ms May vis a vis Ms Sturgeon.

    Yet spin on Ms May’s visit is that it shows her commitment to the Union and many here, not for the first time, seem to have bought into the spin and allowed it and it’s promotion by the MSM to set the terms of your debate.

    Scotland is the junior partner. There is a new PM therefore convention dictates or expects that the head of the junior partner goes to visit the new PM. Think PMs rushing across the Atlantic to be first to meet the new President.

    Instead the PM rushes north to meet the FM who plonks her down in front of two Saltires and an unlit fire – on a damp miserable day in Edinburgh.

    Go figure.

  308. Valerie says:

    Best to keep an eye on Foreign office website. Comms are down. Flights are stopped, or diverted.

    Not sure if they will get out anytime soon.

    Hope they stay safe.

  309. Thepnr says:

    @Cadogan Enright

    Who is Turkey? It’s people, it’s elected government or it’s military? Which of these may support ISIS.

    I have no idea but doubt it is their people.

  310. heedtracker says:

    Why don’t we make it indyref2, that any particular region that votes stay in the UK can, and vice versa.

    Its not how nations work Paps. And our imperial masters like Thatcher 2 keep telling us about her 4 nation country, what she cares about n shit.

  311. Thepnr says:

    Foreign Office releases statement on Turkey. Boris says stay in the hoose and don’t go outside.

  312. North chiel says:

    Managed to read your comments ok Brian ?
    Thanks N.CHIEL.

  313. Robert J. Sutherland says:

    Just what are you trying to prove?

    Your pathetic little worldview is falling apart through its own inherent self-contradictions, yet the best you can do is post a few ridiculous petty niggles on here. (Displacement activity, no doubt.)

    What you in your fixed little BritNat mindset just can’t seem to comprehend is that it is obsolete. Your cosy little UKOK ceased to exist on 23.Jul.2016. Gone. So sorry (not). Scotland is a separate country, whether you like it or not, and not a remote little province of England, and it will very soon be a fully sovereign nation again.

    I know that major historical paradigm shifts are not easy for any of us to comprehend, but try just a little harder to get used to the smaller world that your Leaver fellow-travellers have voted you into. Wherever you may live at the moment, Tory England will no doubt suit you very well in the future. Good luck to you there. It won’t be that different from your narrow BritNat worldview anyway.

  314. Grouse Beater says:

    The pnr: “Foreign Office releases statement on Turkey. Boris says stay in the hoose and don’t go outside.”


  315. CameronB Brodie says:

    Cadogan Enright
    These guys work needs to be beefed up to a full semiotic analysis of all BBC and STV output relating to Scotland. What do you say Rev.? 🙂 (even though I’m banned)

  316. Ruby says:

    ‘Anna Soubry sacked as Theresa May carries out evening reshuffle’

  317. Cactus says:

    I wonder if the incoming PM will also be visiting Northern Ireland and Gibraltar on her tour.. or is it just Scotland that gets this ‘special’ treatment.

    Must be time for a toon.. have a great weekend fine folkspeople.

  318. Alan Mackintosh says:

    Cadogan, fixed it for you

    EBC R4

    “Turkey is one of the main Components of ISIS”

  319. defo says:

    That picture actually makes Cruella look less evil, cute even.

    Stop it ! We have to stay strong.

    Actually, Battersea have run out of puppies for her night time amusement, and Seafield were doing a BOGOF.

  320. carjamtic says:

    Brilliant troll you should be in F Off…

    BoJo then fills in for 3 times a Lady Moan in HoL,a few glasses of Lilac Wine afterwards… tanning sesh,leads to another,afore you know it, it’s all deja vuay,all very afternoon delight,with some Vinegar Joe,matching body piercing,tattoos,new jobs,judges on Strictly,Top Gear presentlng,you EVEL cunning lowlife genius and we fell for it.


  321. Thepnr says:


    Just a nod.

  322. heedtracker says:

    Ian Brotherhood says:
    15 July, 2016 at 10:40 pm
    @heedtracker (10.30) –

    Thanks Ian! If I hit the lotto tomorrow…

  323. CameronB Brodie says:

    I would suggest that there is a multi-layered spatiality to poverty in Britain, which is indicative of historic power structure. Though Scotland has proportionality less absolute poverty (in relative term) than England, Scots as a whole are poorer than their (southern and eastern) English counterpart and there are less uber-rich up here.

    That’s what happens when you aren’t afforded the privileges of statehood and allow your nation’s wealth to be misappropriated. Power always follows the money. Luckily talent is slightly less fickle.

    It’s your ABC1’s in middle-England the PLP aims to appease (see “Southern Discomforts”)

  324. CameronB Brodie says:

    Political power follows the money. Money tends to accumulate around political power.

    It would be nice to get a slice of that.

  325. CameronB Brodie says:

    It also needs to be remembered that any poverty reduction strategies followed by any particular Scottish government, happens within the confines of the pocket-money Scotland receives through Barnett, the amount of which is determined through bogus accounting and an unaccountable civil service.

    Also, no part of the UK should be allowed competitive advantage, despite HS2 and other stuff.

  326. cearc says:


    Don’t worry, I am sure that your family are and will be fine.

    Mustafa Kemal Ataturk (the father of the modern state of Turkey and a very smart cookie), in the constitution, obligated the army to protect all of the people of Turkey and to protect THE SECULAR STATE, not the government of the day.

    Therefore, at various times (4 I think without looking it up) when overly Islamic governments have arisen they have stepped in and taken control until the situation had settled down and then held new elections.

    Erdogan,after a good start as a moderate, called a referendum to remove this from the constitution as the main barrier to their joining the EU. Since he won that his whole policy and attitude changed. The Kurdish party did very well in the election, he was not pleased, he attacked the Kurds in Syria who were the only people effectively holding Isis at bay. He has been buying oil from Isis (the convoys of oil tankers that the Russians have been bombing were all heading to Turkey). There have been widespread clampdowns on protests, arrests of opponents and journalists and lots of ‘encouragement’ for good Islamic women to just stay at home and have babies!

    If I had been living in Turkey in the last couple of years I would have been very concerned about the way things were going and be very relieved to see the army ignoring Erdogan’s changes to the constitution and carrying out their duty, as stipulated by the founder, to protect the secular state.

    So this ‘military coup’ is not as politically disturbing as it would be in most countries. The army is trained and practiced to do it and to run an interim government.

    I hope it goes well.

  327. jockmcx says:

    New English PM pays respects to scottish queen at bute house,

    strange days indeed.

  328. Andy Law says:

    I posted the following on my Facebook page the morning of the referendum. I’ve seen nothing to change it since:-

    “If ye flee wi’ the craws, ye maun thole getting shot wi’ the craws”

  329. davidb says:

    I think Cruella is trying to manoeuvre Nicola into the position of A50 button pusher. That may be intended to single Scotland out in the eyes of the other 27 members. All of whom want the UK to get a move on.

    If the exit drags on forever it may bring the whole European house of cards down.

    I’m not sure how we are supposed to play this one.

    We have to start that independence summer offensive now. We need to have high and consistent yes polling. We need to get out of the UK soon.

  330. Ken500 says:

    Turkish Nationalists killed Johnston grandfather. Johnston is a migrant of Turkish descent. His descendants were a King George? In a small country in Europe – Austria/Germany. Johnston is a mixed race migrant. Born in the US,brought up in Brussels. His father was a EU diplomat. Johnston’s privilege upbring was on EU public money. A surreal total dangerous hypocrite. He brought a Oxford first class degree with public money. Oxford funded 200 to 1 of any other education institution. Has delusions of grandeur. Mental health issues Now wants to destroy the world. He will not last very long. A ‘psycho bastard’.

    He is a liar and a cheat. He had a child with another woman while lying to his wife. He had many affairs. He was sacked from the Times for lying. That must have been quite difficult. The Times are consummate liars, owned by criminal Murdoch. The biggest lying tax evading non Dom criminal of them all. He bribes public officials and illegally bought the Press, through Tory patronage, Thatcher the biggest criminal of them all. She and and broke the Ministerial Code and kept it secret under the Official Secrets Act. They should all be in jail.

    Johnston will have to stop writing a column for the Telegraph for £1/2million. Now he is on a public funded gov salary. The Telegraph owned by tax evading Non Dom Barclay brothers from the private island off the English/French coast. Major tax evaders for all their British interests. Guernsey/Jersey nearer to France than they are to Britain. A UK offshore tax haven. They only allow £Millionaire residency.

    The reason why the Tory ‘psycho bastards’ wanted out of the EU was so they could continuing tax evasion. The EU are going to crack down on (multinationals) tax evading within the EU. The Tories wanted out to continue their illegal tax evasion, illegal military invasions and criminal activities mucking up the world economy.

    Maggie May being in control off the borders. People and goods will not be able to get in and out of England/Wales. May Thatcher in charge of immigration and borders. A total and absolute failure. She appointed a new head. Cut the staff. Caused queues and chaos at the entry points. No one could get in or out of Britain without waiting hours/days. They had to let people through from the UK/EU unchecked, to reduce the queues. The numbers rose and went unchecked – in and out.

    There are more people in Spain from Britain than is calculated. British (elderly) people resident in Spain take Spanish citizenship because they can pay less tax. The figures are under recorded. If they all come back. They will be more (elderly) people in the UK needing amenities. The Tory/Unionist politicians can’t count or read a balance sheet. An incompetent bunch of tax evading criminals. Out of touch with popular opinion. The majority of people in the UK/NI want to stay in the EU. 17Million out of 63Million is not a majority. Never, ever trust a Tory/Unionist politician when they make their their false promises. All they ever care about is themselves. Sanctioning and starving the vulnerable to death at home and abroad.

    The Tory are an illegal, illegitimate Gov. They lie, created and committed Electoral Fraud. Committed electoral fraud in 29 Constituencies. They won in 25 and have a majority of 12. Westminster fraud and corruption. A bunch of ‘psycho bastards’ by their own admission.

  331. Robert Louis says:

    Cearc at 229am,

    I quite agree regarding Turkey. Eerdogan has become a power crazed megalomaniac, comsumed by power. He is a very dangerous person right now. Human rights and the freedom of political opposition and speech have been removed by him.

    The army in Turkey, as you rightly say, were upholding what they are commanded to uphold -democracy, human rights and the SECULAR Turkish state.

    In that context, quite disappointed to see Obama backing him.

    Sadly from what I see, the work of the Army has failed.

  332. Robert Louis says:

    Legerwood at 1220am,

    You make some very good points, including the unlit fire. Perhaps the first words Nicola said when May arrived at the door was ‘you’ll have had yer tea then..’ 🙂

  333. Ken500 says:

    Thatcher/Labour Unionists caused poverty in Scotland. Thatcher hid the Oil wealth under the Official Serects Act. Spent it building up London S/E. Thatcher was a criminal who broke the Ministerial Code. Committed criminal Acts and kept it secret under the Official Secrets Acts. A deluded woman. She hid her crimes and absolutely stole from Scotland. A liar and a cheat she caused poverty in Scotland.

    The North/South divide. A deliberate attempt to create poverty in Scotland because it was difficult (numbers wise) to do anything about it, Scotland outvoted 10 to 1 ruled from a discriminatory Scottish Office. Higher unemployment, more poverty, poorer health and disillusionment, higher alcohol consumption leading to poorer health and diet. It was definitely because of Thatcher’s lies and discriminatory policies. She stood Scotland’s resources and deliberately left Scotland in poverty. People had to migrate to find work.

    A total abuse of power, Transfer of funds and power to the bankers who funded the Tory Party. Deregulated banking led to the banking collapse. Not enough held in reserves. Distribution of wealth from the poorer to the wealthier, A totally destructive economic, social and foreign policy. Thatcher had over 3 million unemployed (higher in the North) on a smaller population size. Interest rates at 15%. Inflation etc. Her own Party had to stab her in the back to get rid of her. The English working class kept on voting for her. ‘All right Jack’. Loads of money Bankers. All based on recycled debt which finally came crashing down under Gordon Brown. The laissez faire policies had crashed the UK/World economy.

    The only way Scotland is better off is the good goverance of SNP policies which are aiding the Scottish economy. Standing up for Scotland from the worst affects of Westminster attrocious policies. E.g. Taxing the Oil sector at 60/80% when the price had fallen 25%. Losing thousands of jobs in Scotland. Illegal wars, sanctioning and starving the vulnerable. Giving more to the wealthiest. Westminster cutting NHS/Education spending and increasing Defence spending. Not enforcing the UK tax Laws. HMRC not fit for purpose. Targeting small businesses while Multinationals are allowed to tax evade with impunity damaging British business, Now he appalling attempt to take Scotland/UK out of the EU. Causing chaos,

  334. Tinto Chiel says:

    Ken500: small point. Boris got a 2:1. Call me Dave got the first, so a bit of degree envy there, I suspect.

    Of course Bojo got a first in Being a Chancer and a Plank.

  335. Socrates MacSporran says:

    I think “Maggie May” will be the perfect nickname by which we Scots should describe our new Prime Minister.

    She is certainly demonstrating that ruthless streak which made Margaret Hilda (Roberts) Thatcher so-beloved of the Tory right.

    There is definitely a spot of Kurgan in “Maggie May’s” DNA; still, not to worry, she has sacked Anna Soubry, and anyone who can get rid of that nasty piece of work cannot be all bad.

    However, she has now sent a potentially powerful bunch of big names to the back benches. When the reality dawns – England, outside the EU, cannot have control of the free movement of labour AND a continuation of the existing trade deal with Europe, there will be a lot of bitter back benchers out to get her, that is how the Tory Party works.

    If she can blame it on the “Sweaties”, she will. But, if we have gone, she has huge problems.

  336. Broch Landers says:

    May has shown Scotland and the office of First Minister more public respect in a single day than Cameron, Brown or Blair ever did in seventeen years. That makes her a much more dangerous opponent. Sturgeon must be more wary than ever in the time ahead.

  337. schrodingers cat says:

    nicola should send the most junior msp to the wm negotiating team

    how about ross greer? lol

  338. cearc says:

    Robert Louis,

    Erdogan is well in favour with the US as he lets them use his airbases for Syria. The parliament refused permission for the Iraq war. US, of course don’t give a toss about the people after all they support Saudi and Israel.

    It does look as though they didn’t have enough support within the army. There will be nothing holding Erdogan back now. If I were living there I would be looking to leave now.

  339. Capella says:

    @ Cearc, thanks for excellent bit of background on the Turkish coup. The BBC is unable to provide any rational comment. The experts are completely tongue-tied there being sl many things they can’t mention.

  340. defo says:

    Remembering the difficult questions that cost us last time,
    I can’t be the first to wonder about this hypothetical.

    Scotland becomes independent, in the EU, under the current set up with free movement etc, and rUK brexits.

    Given that a hard border is a preposterous idea (but that won’t stop the MSM using it), how would rUK deal with migration from the north ?
    ID cards ?

    n.b. Saying it’s their problem isn’t an answer. It will/might be an issue in the indyref2 campaign.

  341. ronnie anderson says:


    Getting the mostest from the TV Licence Fee,bbc 2 saterday morning viewing.

    IVANHOE ho ho ho 1952.

    Dont pay the Licence Fee.

  342. galamcennalath says:

    Read many of the comments. A lot of different ideas about May’s delaying tactic and what it means for Scotland.

    I see absolutely no reason why the SG should pull back from the line of Remain means Remain. The mandate is huge. If WM can come up with a deal on Scotland staying IN both EU & UK while rUK Leaves EU, good luck to them on that!

    Don’t know if anyone else has suggested this …. Is May et al trying to provoke the EU into taking action?

  343. shiregirl says:

    Cearc / Valerie

    Internet back on and they have contacted us. They are unsure what is happening.

    I think there is a feeling that this has been brewing for a while – there appears unrest however people are very guarded in expressing how they feel. Free speech and the right to protest is curbed, however many Turks are supportive of Erdogan even so – I can’t understand this.

    I feel this is the first of many coup attempts and unrest – a country divided.

  344. Cadogan Enright says:

    Irish News this morning

    Norn Iron’s new Secretary of State , some gobshite called rather aptly ‘Brokenshire’ spent his first day on the Jon 15th July yesterday

    “…has insisted that he does not want to see a hardening of the boarder in the wake of Brexit”

    Brokenshire said “The British and Irish Governments were opposed to a return of boarder check points between north and south ”

    “I think there is a real sense of committment between the UK Government and the Irish Government to work together very closely so we don’t see that returning” .


    Not possible to have one type of boader with Independent Ireland and another with Independent Scotland

  345. Ken500 says:

    Endogan lied to win an election. Project Fear. Now taking away people’s civil rights under Project Fear. Causing death and instability to line his associates pockets with public money.

    Putin told America, ‘to call off their mad dog Endogan’. The US/EU are sanctioning Russia because of Merkel muck up, in not giving Ukraine a loan. Russia backed them up but now Ukraine has a new US sponsored Prres who stole £Billions from the Ukrainian people. The US has given the Ukraine a loan which is being used to buy Russia Gas, while the US tries to sanctions Russia. The US eyes up Ukraine resources.

  346. Fireproofjim says:

    Re Turkey.
    Sadly, I agree with earlier points that Turkey is on the way to becoming a failed Islamic state.
    The current leader, Erdogan, is strongly influenced by religion and has been a covert supporter of Isis. He has clamped down on the press and the Internet and has allowed extreme Islamist preachers to spout their poison. He has abandoned peace talks with the Kurds and created a full scale civil war there.
    The Turkish constitution is strictly secular but it is being eroded at his behest, school teaching is becoming more and more religious and the freedom of women is under attack.
    I hope that the failed coup will be a wake up call for Erdogan, but I fear It may strengthen his religious fervour, which will be bad for everybody but especially the secular Turks.

  347. Famous15 says:

    Sad to read the.anti Sturgeon vile outpourings because our FM did not light the fire to welcomeMaggie May.

    It is no longer “get to the back of the bus” things have moved on” get back to the servants quarters downstairs and fetch the coal”

    It was so cold our national flag turned blue! Oh dear,that was another cause for condemnation.

    Meanwhile the Scottish Government Departments under excellent leadership run an excellent Education,Health,Transport,Environment etc etc. Strength in depth.

  348. Scott says:

    Has Maggie May sacked the Mone woman from her job Cameron gave her?

    Rev did you notice that JRRT who donated £50,000 to Carmichael have just given £5,000 to the four who took him to court are they trying to salve their conscience I wonder.

  349. Ken500 says:

    Scottish Gov is receiving limited rights over welfare. Transfer of power. The Scottish Gov can now use to alleviate poverty, The SNP Gov asked for the HMRC details of those being sanction by the Westminster/Unionists in Scotland. They refused. It could be possible the SNP Scottish Gov can now instigate policies to directly relieve poverty caused by the Westminster Gov in Scotland. Divert funds to the vulnerable being starved and sanctioned to death.

  350. Ken500 says:

    The UK now has no recognised representation in the EU from a UK PM. They are not included in any discussion. Out in the cold. England/Wales at the Brexit door. Waiting for the final documentation. Scotland/NI still in the running. Nicola will be leading the Scottish negotiations to stay in. In England/Wales best interest.

  351. Valerie says:


    If Mays gov’t threaten a hard Border, that’s just desperate fear.mongering. We Brexit, AND we erect hard Borders with trading neighbours?

    I think this will just show them for the weak bullies they are. At this stage, they want to be seen as hard line. That’s why May has got rid of so many of Cameron’s mates.

    Brokenshire is a diddy, who does what he’s telt.

    What a mess in Turkey. Erdogan will use it as an excuse for more draconian measures. It’s been headed in a very worrying direction for a long time.

    Erdogan is steeped in corruption, but the theory is he has lots of supporters for his illegal oil dealing, because lots are benefiting from it.

    His call for people to take to the streets, whilst he was hidden miles away, should tell you everything. Now we have civilian deaths, just what he wants.

  352. cearc says:


    ‘– I can’t understand this…’

    Lots of low paid english people, who haven’t had the misfortune of being laid off or becoming ill, support the tories and a lot of people believe the BBC is impartial!

  353. Nana says:



    Check this out especially the link provided by dialMfor Murdo


  354. Macart says:


    I don’t think their problem will be immigration at that point. If Scotland is the only nation in the British isles still a member of the EU and still ufettered access to EU markets, their problem may be emigration.

    Consider, as an example, car manufacturers who set up factories in England simply because they had that access. Or financial services swapping those famous brass plaques would be another example. The flight of tax paying skilled labour and business may be northward rather than southward.

    Also with a possible CTA agreement and perhaps a zero or reduced tariff sweetener think in terms of increased retail trade heading northward. All things possible?

    At any rate these are unknowns and shear speculation.

    The real question at the moment is indyref or no indyref.

    Personally I can’t see a scenario where this can be avoided. The SNP were voted into both Westminster and Holyrood on a ticket of being a pro EU party amongst other things. In the recent EU REF Scotland voted overwhelmingly in favour of retaining full fat EU membership. BT and HMG assured the Scottish electorate that if we voted no to independence our place as an EU member was guaranteed. Finally PM May has assured her own electorate that Brexit means Brexit and the FM has assured Scotland’s electorate that remain means remain.

    One union has to give and the only way to settle that is via another independence referendum. Anything else will prove catastrophic for politics and political engagement in these islands. If either the PM or the FM backs down from these stated positions their governments would face awful backlash from the public.

    Both of them know this I’m sure. Just as I’m sure they are fully aware of the catastrophic fuckwittery in Westminster which dropped them into this unenviable position. However, they are where they are and neither can afford to turn their backs on their electorates at this time.

    If as we suspect indyref it is, then in this time of crisis, Labour in Scotland needs to get with the programme and get fully behind independence. Same goes for the Lib Dem vote and basically everyone else. If it is triggered and for the life of me I can’t see another option, then they need to stand up and be counted. Westminster is effectively lost to the Conservative project for well over the next decade. Their own parties in rUK are scattered and broken. Society as evidenced in the recent EU ref has taken a decidedly dark and divided turn thanks to politics as it is practiced…

    Westminster has failed on every level to deliver for everyone in the UK. Its beyond merely broken. It is shattered beyond any redemption and I don’t think we want any part of what comes next.

  355. Les Wilson says:

    Valerie says:

    “Erdogan is steeped in corruption, but the theory is he has lots of supporters for his illegal oil dealing, because lots are benefiting from it.”

    That sounds very familiar!! are the Tories involved in Turkey?

  356. cearc says:


    Erdogan’s call to people to take to the streets was actually a very smart move which saved his skin.

    The Turkish army are tasked to protect the peoples of Turkey and the secular state. So if, as there are pictures of, a civilian lies down in the road in front of tank, the tank stops. Unlike your more usual aggressive military coup where they would just drive over you.

  357. One_Scot says:

    If it was up to me I would call IndyRef2 now. Absolutely nothing to lose, everything to gain.

    No one ever said it was two IndyRefs max.

  358. One_Scot says:

    There cannot be a reasonably minded ‘No’ voter in Scotland who does not now know that they were misled and lied to.

  359. Dan Huil says:

    Well, after Maggie May’s wee visit we can safely assume the so-called united kingdom continues on its merry way towards self-destruction.

  360. thomaspotter2014 says:

    Seems to me that the Scottish Unionists are now just like the Japanese soldiers on the Pacific islands.

    Still fighting the war after the 2nd H-bomb(the 1st being Holrood elections with the 2nd being their own EU Ref.) and unaware that their Empire has surrendered.

    Sad but true.

    Not long now.

    I did say this circumstance would come sooner than expected.

    The YES movement band needs to get back together asap.
    Saddle up and rude the Indy pony.????????


  361. thomaspotter2014 says:

    Seems to me that the Scottish Unionists are now just like the Japanese soldiers on the Pacific islands.

    Still fighting the war after the 2nd H-bomb(the 1st being Holrood elections with the 2nd being their own EU Ref.) and unaware that their Empire has surrendered.

    Sad but true.

    Not long now.

    I did say this circumstance would come sooner than expected.

    The YES movement band needs to get back together asap.
    Saddle up and ride the Indy pony.????????


  362. galamcennalath says:

    @Macart a 10:04

    I agree. The positions of SG and WM are irreconcilable. It seems to me though, that the SG are holding the best cards.

    The SG mandate is very strong from EURef. We must add to this that recent polls put SNP vote share above 50%. At the same time Lab & Con in England are neck and neck on ~35%.

    While the EU won’t take sides on internal matters, it is certain they will take Scotland’s side if we show commitment to the EU with a vote for Indy.

    The key to it all is clarifying a non Indy solution does not exist, then getting wide section of Scotland onboard, and then calling IndyRef2.

    WM’s objective must be to avoid or delay the ‘clarifying a non Indy solution does not exist’ stage.

  363. heedtracker says:

    Rancid The Graun’s head up its own jacksy as usual. Another country just ripped up Scots EU citizenship, is not theoretical in the least. Probably just a taste of the relentless UKOK media bullshit storm we’re heading in to but each day passes and the UK goes.


    “European commission

    Britain’s MEPs ushered quietly off stage as the EU show goes on
    British MEPs are already under pressure to cede influential positions even though in theory nothing has changed yet”


    “When the clock strikes midnight on Friday the UK will have no representative at the top table of the EU executive for the first time in 43 years. In a deliberate and highly symbolic move, Hill’s portfolio – financial regulation that affects the City of London – will pass to Valdis Dombrovskis, the commissioner in charge of the euro.”

    Buried in the middle

    “Not everyone is being shunted aside. MEPs declined to accept the resignation of Ian Duncan, a Scottish Conservative MEP who offered to stand down as parliament’s chief negotiator on the reform of Europe’s emissions trading scheme. But his position, and those of other Britons with important files, will be reassessed at a later date.”

  364. cearc says:


    ‘…and rude the Indy pony.’

    Well best start looking for Lady Godiva volounteers!

  365. liz says:

    @Ken500 – exactly Thatcher stole from Scotland, so just what were those SLAB MPs doing to protect, that’s right SFA.

    ‘Tractors’ every one of them

  366. Macart says:


    That would be my reasoning. Unless the EU decides to set some precedent allow Scotland to retain membership of both unions of course…

    … no, I don’t think so either.

    How and ever, to satisfy all concerned, the SG have to be seen to explore all these non options and of course May will point the right wing press in Scotland’s direction to divert attention from her own woes. Still being treated like dirt by the media is par for the course in Scotland. (sigh)

  367. heedtracker says:

    While the EU won’t take sides on internal matters, it is certain they will take Scotland’s side if we show commitment to the EU with a vote for Indy.

    Which explains why Thatcher 2’s already been in Edinburgh gripping Sturgeon tight. How does Scotland show commitment to the EU, when our imperial masters orders Scotland to be ‘fully engaged’ at the centre of UKOK planet toryboy Leave stuff?

    May thinks its perfectly acceptable to tell her scotland region that one referendum is enough for you sweaties. And ofcoure BBC creeps slam in behind. Its how UKOK democracy works.

  368. heedtracker says:

    My Slovene girlfriend has another massive UKOK tantrum. Adam’s hysterics EUOK wise are a bit odd because he doesn’t really know what if anything the EU can do for a Remain Scotland stuck in Brexit UK.

    Theresa May and Nicola Sturgeon: up the Clyde without a bargepole
    16 Jul 2016 10:13

    0 Recommend In response to bellyache
    No it wouldn’t. Like everything else, that would be for negotiation.

    Did the SNP liars tell you this? But of course they did, in their white paper.

    For your information, the EU rules are NOT negotiable, and especially not for the new EU members.

    The ‘negotiations’ are not about whether the new EU member will adopt he EU rules, but rather WHEN it will adopt these rules during its membership procedure. The candidate also has to provide solid evidence that it had implemented these rules not only in its adopted legislation, but also in practice – the EU checks this in very great detail.

    A new EU member joins the EU with a temporary derogation for the euro and the Schengen (becuase these two measures require special preparation which the new member cannot do before joining the EU), but with a legal commitment to eventually join both the euro and the Schengen.

    Take it or leave it.

    View discussion

  369. Grouse Beater says:

    It’s England’s mess, stupid!:

  370. heedtracker says:

    Does it matter what an enraged Britnat toryboy thinks? There’s that “bigot” Scot stuff again, just like 2014, if you’re a YES vote. Here we go again basically.

    16 Jul 2016 00:11
    2 Recommend In response to Beanfield85
    And England’s 37.7% support for ‘leave’ Is?

    In the run-up to Scotland’s independence referendum, I have argued very many times on these threads (on the basis of evidence such as quotes from international organisations) that a special majority/threshold is required for such a major national decision.

    The Scottish independentists have attacked me collectively very many times for daring to point this basic democratic principle out.

    Of course the same internationally recognised principles also apply to the Brexit referendum.

    However, the Scottish SNP government was he first one here who arrogantly ignored the international democratic standards hoping to push their bigoted retro-nationalistic agenda through in the Scottish referendum by a narrow margin. You reap what you sow.

    See my two posts here. I have argued this case very many times during Scotland’s independence referendum . See my posting history, it is all on the record.

    View discussion

  371. heedtracker says:

    To be fair to Prof Tomkins, you can see for yourself why he’s hysterical with UKOK rage.

  372. Dan Huil says:

    “How does Scotland show commitment to the EU, when our imperial masters orders Scotland to be ‘fully engaged’ at the centre of UKOK planet toryboy Leave stuff?”

    Keep talking to EU representatives. It doesn’t matter if it is behind closed doors, the EU will know where Scotland wants to be.

  373. Sassenach says:

    What macart says at 10-04am.

    Good post!

  374. Wee Alex says:

    May strikes me as someone who tries to cover all bases.

    Expect some sleight of hand in return for a referendum.

    40% rule perhaps.

    75% of the vote needed to get Indy?

    It’s early days yet, but Mundell conceding a 2nd referendum worries me.

  375. Andy.D says:

    I am so sad we are going out of the EU why? well our farmers wont get their subsidies, the fishermen will no longer have to let all EU nations take their fish while they go on to the dole, we can no longer have more unskilled Scots on the dole as all the jobs go to the EU workers that are better than us and work harder for less cash, the last remaining council houses maybe go to the Scots who have paid into the system all their lives instead of going to our EU cousins, god is it not good being in the EU. This is some of the things I aint going to miss if it comes to pass but as a sceptic I believe we are going to be sold down the river and a half way house on EU membership will be forthcoming. I voted out and if NS tries to take me back in I will with a heavy heart vote to stay in the UK and desert the SNP in the future.

  376. Paula Rose says:

    All this talk about getting the Yes movement up and running – some of us never stopped…

  377. Breeks says:

    The unrest I feel isn’t just the few faces I dislike at the SNP coal face, it’s the whole pretext of the prevailing circumstances. Its the whole kit and kaboodle.

    The SNP has its mandate from the Scottish electorate, and uses the concept of Westminster and Holyrood to deliver effective government, (present company excepted), but it seems loathed to rattle Westminster’s cage. We seem so terribly humble before the mighty Westminster lest they remove our priviledges. Yes, yes, yes, I know there is an integrity issue to be handled carefully, but nevertheless we are such thoroughly respectful rebels.

    When I see Theresa May emerging from Bute House and being quoted as hostile towards Scottish Independence, what I do not see is a woman who appreciates that sovereign government in Scotland is not a top down blessing from on high, but a bottom up priviledge for those whom we Scots elect to represent our interests.

    Theresa May delivers Westminster policy in the manner she would a UK electorate, but to paraphrase Aslan, the Lion, in “The Lion, The Witch, and the Wardrobe”, there is a deeper magic the Ice queen doesn’t seem to know about. We have archaic manuscripts which enshrine our rights as Scottish citizens, medieval ordinances which fundamentally protect our interests, most if not all rendered dormant, but not revoked, by the Act of Union, which set aside these ordinances and deferred to the parliament of the United Kingdom.

    Westminster governs us, and so too does Holyrood, in the spirit of these circumstances, however this is just not consistent with UK’s Supreme Court test case which upheld Scotland’s Lord Advocate’s defence that Scottish sovereignty resided with the people, and that it went beyond his jurisdiction to overrule these ancient Scottish documents.

    Here is why I am confused. If our Scottish sovereignty is already enshrined in perpetuity by both the Declaration of Arbroath and and the 1689 Claim of Right, and the potency of such legislation is still valid as recognised by the UK Supreme Court, then can anybody explain to me why we are engaging with Westminster seeking their permission to determine uniquely Scottish issues which were actually determined several centuries ago?

    Why are we binding our Independence and sovereignty to Westminster’s disposition towards Europe? Why is our sovereign independence couched in such terms as a priviledge bestowed upon us by Westminster? They make us a gift of devolved “partial sovereigny” which we dutifully accept and respect, seemingly unaware their gift is actually ours already, and a mere fraction of whatever else actually belongs to us too.

    I don’t understand why our case for Independence is defined by politics, media, and horse trading when the actual status of our Independence is defined by legal definition which cannot be changed or challenged by any of them.

    We need neither referendum, nor UDI for independence, merely the recognition and observance of existing legal statute. We, the people of Scotland, are sovereign in perpetuity, and we cannot abdicate or transpose that sovereignty.

    All UK legislation, from the 1707 Act of Union forward presumes this sovereignty was somehow transferred over to Westminster, something which cannot actually be done. The Act of Union is built upon a false premise.

    What is equally true, and something we need to think about, is that our sovereignty being enshrined in the people might very well trump Westminster’s authority over us, but because it is a principle designated in perpetuity, our sovereingty also trumps our democracy. We cannot be rid of our sovereignty in perpetuity.

    Those who acceded to the 1707 Act of Union pledged Scottish sovereignty to the United Kingdom Parliament which was never theirs to pledge. By all means pledge allegiance, loyalty, friendship, whatever, but pledging sovereignty was beyond their technical capacity.

    We are a sovereign country whether we like it or not. Why do we need Westminster’s permission to be what we already are? It is the 307 years of Union which had existed contrary to the law and must surely be judged as compromised accordingly.

    This isn’t dead history, it is acutely relevant. If we build our Independent Scotland on democracy or written constitution, unless we build upon our historic legacy, our new Sovereign parliament will be built upon the same flawed foundations as the 1707 Act of Union. We are an independent sovereign people. It does not require ANY parliament to make us so, and no parliament we create can take, trade, or give away that sovereignty, nor revoke the statute which enshrines it.

    The thorny truth of it is we cannot elect a sovereign Scottish Government. The closest we can get to it is an elected civil service to do our bidding. It can channel our sovereign intentions, but never exceed them.

    There is a reason why the Declaration of Arbroath features in so many modern constitutions. It is the foundation stone upon which every Republic is built.

    Scotland is a democracy by deed, perception, and established doctrine, but this disguises an older truth, that Scotland is a Republic by ancient and legal ancient definition.

  378. Effijy says:

    If we can be patient, and give Westminster enough rope, you will see them destroy the economy like never before.

    Unemployment will rise, investment will fall, major banks and financial institutions will relocate their HQ’s, yet more cuts will be applied, although they will come up with a new name for it, “economic adjustment”?

    We also recognise that the majority of our aged citizens are vulnerable to Westminster Scaremongering and will not change things even when their NHS is in danger with TTIP, and their pension is already one of the worst in Europe.

    Obama lied, as US Presidents must do, when he said it would take years for a Brexit UK to set up a Trade Deal with America. It will be in place quickly while UK government negotiate without any cards to play.
    The Tories who broker this sell out will be looked after
    and their hedge fund managers can move their monies across the pond.

    Anyone buying say a Japanese Motor Bike, gets import rates agreed as the UK being part of the large EU Buying Group.
    To trade with Japan as a stand alone country, will mean less lucrative rates, so what you buy outside of the EU will cost more and what you buy in the EU will costs more,
    or at very least, Engerland will pay trading fees similar to the membership fees paid now and with Open Borders or no deal.

    How embarrassing and completely stupid for my country to let these corrupt fools control everything that we do.

  379. mr thms says:

    “UCAS has revealed that, by the 30 June deadline this year, a total of 593,720 people applied to full-time courses in UK higher education.

    There were 495,940 British applicants, down almost 2,000 from the year before.

    The overall figure marks a small increase of 1,430 applicants compared to last year – a statistically insignificant value below one per cent. But there has been a decrease in applicants from the UK for the first time since tuition fees were trebled in 2012.”

    Meanwhile in Scotland

    “Figures from UCAS based on the June application deadline show that the number of applicants to universities in Scotland has increased to 121,610 which is a record high.

    The number of Scottish students applying to university has increased to 49,470 which is also a record high and the number of applicants from other EU countries to Scottish universities also increased to 19,820 in the 2016 cycle, along with a rise in students from other parts of the world, all choosing to study in Scotland.”

  380. Tam Jardine says:

    The Guardian’s opinion piece on May’s visit is all very positive about the latest developments. Ridiculous bit of distortion within it:

    “the SNP insists it will be possible to find a way for Scotland to stay in the EU and remain a part of the UK.”

    That is complete horseshit- the Guardian want it to sound like the SNP are in a powerless position, desperate to stay in both unions when any child reading the situation will know that the SNP and FM in particular have said again and again that they are exploring all ways to stay in the EU. They have ruled out being dragged out of the EU and have explored the impossible options of staying in both as a precursor to pushing the indyref2 button as soon as article 50 is activated.

    Wilful misinformation by the guardian… what we are used to

  381. galamcennalath says:

    WM should begin to consider …. post Indy, post EngWexit, it will be in their interests to have Scotland as a best friend!

  382. heedtracker says:

    Andy.D says:
    16 July, 2016 at 11:16 am
    I am so sad we are going out of the EU why?

    Yes Andy, its all because of Johnny Foreigner types coming over here. Whatabout the millions of noble Brits that have emigrated Andy, sorry the millions of British expats that have emigrated Andy?

    Millions of UK expats in the EU, Australia, the US, NZ etc going over there, taking the last remaining council houses, catching all the fish, working harder for less cash for the local peoples. lolZ.

  383. galamcennalath says:

    Tam Jardine says:

    “a way for Scotland to stay in the EU and remain a part of the UK.”

    It’s perhaps repetition of a common propaganda theme which seems targeted at folks down south. They like to imply that deep down the SNP don’t want Indy, but actually only seek more and more special treatment from WM.

    Clearly bovine excrement. I can only assume it is designed to paint Scots, SG, and SNP as spongers. We are labelled as yet another set of parasites taking advantage of England’s good nature.

    It’s a dangerous game.

  384. Paula Rose says:

    Poor little Andy.D can someone make him a cup of tea I’m a bit busy at the moment.

  385. Socrates MacSporran says:

    Poor Deborah Orr, the Scottish journalist who wrote the Guardian piece which with the ehading about Mesdames May and Sturgeon being “Up the Clyde without a paddle”.

    I am presuming Ms Orr, being Scottish, would, unlike the sub-editor who wrote the heading, know that the two leaders were meeting on the shores of the Firth of Forth, rather than on the banks of the Clyde.

    But, we must remember, to Fleet Street and those in the Westminster bubble, Scotland is: “A samll, far-away country of which we know nothing” – aye, and care even less.

  386. Lollysmum says:

    Trident No More being livestreamed from Edinburgh
    Watch it here-starting at 12 noon

  387. gordoz says:

    “I voted out and if NS tries to take me back in I will with a heavy heart vote to stay in the UK and desert the SNP in the future.”

    Cheers, thanks for that, mind and shut the door on your way out (good luck with your true friends look under Better Together / Scotland in Union).

  388. Lochside says:

    Forgive me if someone else has pointed this out on this thread, but I’ve made it before: During the REF campaign, Scotland was prohibited by the UK Gov and the EU from asking for the latter’s position towards us on applying as a ‘newly’ independent state, while RUK were still remainders, if hypothetically we had won Independence.

    The fact is that the situation has changed from a hypothetical one to a factual one, but in reverse: we want to stay, and they have voted to go.

    Therefore, there must exist a channel of appeal direct to the EU constitutional experts and Government to give the Scottish Government an official and public ruling on a ‘road map’ to retaining our membership. We would be basing our appeal on the fact that it is de facto that our current status as a nation within the EU is being jeapordised undemocratically.

    This should trump all the previous obstacles to us getting a clear message, not only to the Brits, but to our own wobbly ‘NOs’ and assorted fearties.This would also clear the decks for all the parcels of pish being prepared by the BBC et al to be jettisoned in favour of heartfelt pleas for us to not let our fellow ‘Spirit of Dunkirk’ subjects down and stick with them as they slowly sink under the English Channel loaded down with hubris and hate of foreigners.

    btw: in terms of class votes in Scotland…many previous patterns are already null and void….check out how Edinburgh and Aberdeen voted in The EU…..all the English and their Scottish Uncle Toms voted economically to save their house values and businesses…they did and will continue to support us as long as it looks like the smart money is on us remaining and the RUK leaving….they’ll support their pennies before their patriotism!

  389. Dr Jim says:

    @Andy D

    You’ve not looked into this enough Andy, look again and remember Scotland has never been allowed representation of it’s own ministers inside the EU the UK would’nt allow it …WHY?

    Every decision concerning the EU was taken at and by Westminster and Scotland was left to once again make the best of London’s sell outs

    No country in the world let alone the EU favours UK diplomacy, they’re not liked by anybody and though all the media would have you believe Scotland’s FM was somehow snubbed by the EU the opposite is true so much so they had to work hard to edit clips and bits of film to make it look the way they try to sell it

    Whether we’re in the EU or not is not however the most important thing, Independence is, then we choose what we want, and that’s the difference WE choose what WE want to live with NOT Westminster

    One other thing, suppose we don’t like the EU after Independence, that choice would be ours to make exactly the same as England just did but included us whether we liked it or not, but we could say Yes or No at OUR convenience

    And that’s Independence

  390. Artyhetty says:

    re:Brock Landers@8.35am

    And TM’s ‘public’ persona, as we know, is false, but some will be taken in by her pretense to care about ordinary people, something which the tories just do not do.

    She was afforded the kind of reception she deserves in Scotland, basically akin to that of a head teacher bully.

  391. Grouse Beater says:

    Sent to Rowling, Farquharson, Tomkins, Ruthie, et al:

  392. Bob Mack says:

    The EU was actually responsible for SAVING fish stocks,which had been in terminal decline for the past hundred years. Their quota system prevented the annihilation of fishing commercially.
    Farmers without subsidies will go out of business. Many are kept afloat by the EU grants. They go out of business your food is imported at extra cost—— to you!

    Over my 65 years I look back at what successive Labour and Tory governments have done for Scotland and I keep coming up with the same answer. Not hellish much. Party interests always meant that those representing Scotland invariably voted with their English counterparts in Westminster,usually for Englands benefit.

    Today we have MP’S who want to see Scotland prosper and have direction in the world. What do we get from those who want to leave the EU ? “I don’t want to lose control”, as if somehow the SNP would drop their sworn duty to the Scottish people

    I despair.

  393. schrodingers cat says:

    totally paula

    indyref2 has started

    and for those calling for someone else to start indyref2 campaign, get in touch with your local yes campaign

  394. Woody says:

    @Brian Doonthetoon
    Well aren’t you perceptive ? I might say that your inability to spell “sympathise” clearly marks you out as a total numpty, unsuited to participate in intelligent debate, but where would that get us eh ? 🙂

    A child would wonder why a party which so opposes pooling sovereignty with England, Wales and NI is so desperate (and that is the apt word) to join another political union. The answer appears to be because the English (read the tories) are worse than the europeans. Scratch the surface and you see that this is actually all that a lot of Scottish nationalism boils down to. The other answer I can come up with is less appealing which is that you realise that scotland actually needs to be in a union, and if the UK wont suit, we’ll just join the EU.

    This EU is lead by a man who made Luxembourg a tax haven, that imposes severe austerity on the Greeks etc etc. The question is not really why is the EU better than the UK (if you believe that) but rather why is it a threat to Scotland’s interests to leave the EU, but not to leave the UK ? Such statements are totally illogical.

  395. heedtracker says:

    Comic relief. Its a bit odd watching Wos getting monstered, for not being the Hootsman and going bust. Comments don’t

    Hootsman turned the Saltire into a Swastika which probably says everything you need to know about that now militant newsroom

  396. Woody says:

    @Brian Doonthetoon
    Apologies for misreading,pls ignore my comment about your misspelling…. 🙂

  397. Artyhetty says:

    Re; Tam Jardine@11.24 and galamcennalath@11.36

    Yep, going on what my Graun reading friends believe, mainly S of the border, they will be reading this as Scotland wanting it’s cake and eating it. They already go with the brainwashing from the Graun and bbc that Scotland is a subsidy junkie, and that the aim is for a ‘utopia’ which is ‘selfish’.
    I kid you not the stuff they came out with, for intelligent people was shocking. Contemptuous all the way, mocking Scotland and the SNP, and anyone who supports them.

    It is a dangerous game that these rags and britnat media play, but hey, they do not give a s**t.
    One friend said Scotland was near on a fascist state, and would become ‘like Syria’, now that attitude is very scary indeed, because they are so brainwashed that they would likely support violence toward Scotland, and that’s your people from North of england. Brrrrrr.

  398. Free Scotland says:

    @Woody at 12:31

    I might say that your inability to distinguish between “led” (past participle of the verb “to lead”) and “lead” (the metal element) clearly marks you out as a total numpty, unsuited to participate in intelligent debate.

  399. Ian Brotherhood says:

    Anyone have a link to Trident flashmob in Glasgow Buchanan St?

    Edinburgh gig with Tommy Sheppard looks pretty busy:

  400. heedtracker says:

    Scratch the surface and you see that this is actually all that a lot of Scottish nationalism boils down to. The other answer I can come up with is less appealing which is that you realise that scotland actually needs to be in a union, and if the UK wont suit, we’ll just join the EU”

    You’re just another UKOK bigot Woody. If the Vow hadn’t turned out to be a really vicious fraud, if Scotland was actually heading for the promised 2014 federal UK with devo-max, its highly likely that Scottish independence would now be fading.

    But here we are. The Vow was an historic fraud on YES voting Scots and on our fledgling democracy. BBC Scotland merely perpetuates this fraud day in day out. Now we’ve had our EU citizenship ripped up in front of us by England but for what, Rule Britannia can rule the waves again?

  401. Tam Jardine says:


    “A child would wonder why a party which so opposes pooling sovereignty with England, Wales and NI is so desperate (and that is the apt word) to join another political union.”

    Hi Woody. I would ask said child A. Which scenario offers Scotland the most say in her affairs, the most control over policy?

    1. Political union with England outside the EU

    2. Political union with England within the EU

    3. Independence as a sovereign member of the EU

    4. Independence from UK and EU.

    Option 4 is the answer- it however would leave us outside the largest market of 440million people on our doorstep. Option 3 is what the vast majority of European countries have and offers almost all decision making whilst retaining access to the single market, freedom of movement for our citizens to work abroad and for workers to work here.

    Option 2 is dead and option 1 has been uniquely chosen by the Welsh

    Next question- is every one of the 27 EU member states stupid for also choosing Option 3 (along with a growing majority of people in Scotland?

  402. Woody says:

    In between slinging insults, i am genuinely curious to know why you think leaving the EU is more of a threat to our interests than leaving the UK. And are you also saying that you would be happy to remain in the UK if “The Vow” had (in your opinion) delivered all it promised to ?

  403. Cuilean says:


    when Scotland remains part of the EU amd England exits the EU, all economic relationships between Scotland and England will be governed by what the EU agrees with England. England won’t be in the position, as it was in 2014,that it called all the economic argument shots. In Indy2, as a remaining member of the EU, England will have to accept what the larger partner agrees to. I know this is very unpalatable for all Brit Yoons, but in IndyRef2 Scotland will (as a member of the EU) be the larger stronger party in its negotiations with wee, nationalistic, separatist, little England. I don’t think that fact has sunk in yet for the general public, but it certainly has with the UK Government who know that once S50 is activated with no deal for Scotland to remain, Indyref2 will be called and the 1707 Union is at an end. You will not be able to scare and lie to Scotland as you did in 2014, as the EU will back Scotland and expose all your lies. You willnot be able to dictate the terms of the divorce, like an abusive partner, as you did in 2014, as it is not just Scotland you will be abusing, but the 27 other countries of the EU. Little England will also not be able to dictate it’s border arrangement with Eire but then try another scare story on Scotland’s border as both will be EU borders and both will have to be respected equally. The game has completely changed and Scotland has the stronger economic hand; not England. Just wait, too,til the LOndon finanace centre collapses nearer England exiting.

  404. galamcennalath says:

    heedtracker at 12:46

    Indeed. Yoonie street criers are either selectively blind to recent events and the reality around them, or professional agitators on active service.

  405. Undeadshuan says:


    Scotland in UK

    All taxes collected not kept in Scotland

    Our soldiers sent to invade other countries

    WMDs sited 30 miles from our most populated city.

    Very little control over leavers to grow economy

    Very little control over social security policies

    Budget dependent upon block grant from UK.
    With things like NHS linked to NHS spend in England. If English NHS privatised our budget will fall drastically.

    Contrast this with
    Scotland independent in eu

    All taxes raised onshore and offshore kept in Scotland.
    No WMDs forced upon us.

    Ability to raise new taxes to target companies like are taxes. amazon, who (tax paid on items delivered to UK addresses, thus stopping the Luxembourg loophole, where taxes paid there)

    Full control of all levers to grow economy and thus have higher employment.
    Which mays means more taxes and less need for benefits.

    Full control of social security and pensions. No one size fits all policies with benefits targeted and no bedroom taxes or similar imposed from Westminster.

    Our armed forces used for defence and not invading other countries.

    So the EU to Scotlands relationship is nothing like the uk’s relationship to Scotland.

    In fact its an improvement for us with more freedom, not less to run our country as we see fit.

    In addition as a member of eu we continue to have access to free market.

  406. Woody says:

    @Tam Jardine
    Fair enough, so in your opinion nationalism is not a philosophical objection to political union, but you haven’t explained why option 3 is better for Scotland when it would leave us outside of a political union with our direct neighbours and largest trading partners. It’s also not clear who would pay for or manage the border with England. I am cynical about the claimed moral superiority of my fellow Scots at the moment, we’ve seen how areas (which historically have been politically aligned with Scotland) affected by immigration have reacted.

  407. T.roz says:


    We’ll said, I like how Scotland will be backed up by the EU.

  408. Woody says:

    But our taxes would go to the EU at least some of them, so its not true to say we would keep all tax raised at all. The head of the EU is of course the man responsible for making Luxembourg the tax haven it is, and didn’t AS continually go on about an independant Scotland being a light touch and all that ? To encourage businesses here. An independant Scotland appears to be all things to all people.

  409. heedtracker says:

    Woody says:
    16 July, 2016 at 12:56 pm
    In between slinging insults, i am genuinely curious to know why you think leaving the EU is more of a threat to our interests than leaving the UK. And are you also saying that you would be happy to remain in the UK if “The Vow” had (in your opinion) delivered all it promised to ?

    The EU and the UK are two entirely different unions, which you know ofcourse. Facts that don’t match UKOK Project Fearing are always ignored.

    Facts are Woody, YES Scots were defrauded by Westminster 2014 and England’s now robbed Scots of their EU citizenship. So as long as Scotland is ruled by England, it makes no difference what we want, think or vote.

    If the EU was anything like the UK, would PM Cammeron have had to go and ask the EU president if he could hold an EU ref?

    And what if the EU pres said NO chance Cammers, just like what Thatcher 2, all yoons and the whole of tory BBC led media are raging at us now?

  410. Dr Jim says:

    Mini May Davidson’s a dangerous Britnat radical terrorist
    Only someone with contempt and hostility to her own country could make them change their rhetoric and agenda several times within a couple of months depending on who was her new leader
    And after courting the sectarian vote at the holyrood elections which she fought under the banner of “The strong opposition and NO to another referendum party” yet didn’t seem to want to associate herself with the Conservative and Unionist party until after the election I can come to no other conclusion than that this woman in another country not too far away would be arrested for being a hate preacher

    On an Independence referendum she said “Take a hike” when Cameron was in power, then she said “I wouldn’t seek to block a referendum” now she says “No referendum” now that Maggie May’s in power

    This woman whom the Tories seem to set some store by will say and do anything she’s told by whomever is in charge at any given moment,and each time she does she does it with such venom spewing forth she almost foams at the mouth

    This is a radicalised Toryist

    I’m calling for a complete and total shutdown of all Toryists entering Scotland until our Government can work out what the hell’s going on

  411. Grouse Beater says:

    Woody: “I am cynical about the claimed moral superiority of my fellow Scots.”

    I see you’re full of superiority your self.

    Don’t fool yourself. 300 years of servitude doesn’t add up to moral superiority.

    Delusions of moral superiority lie with a neighbour state that feels it has the right to rule.

    But compared to the odious UKIP, yes, Scots are morally superior.

  412. Grouse Beater says:

    Dr Jim: “I’m calling for a complete and total shutdown of all Toryists entering Scotland until our Government can work out what the hell’s going on.”


  413. Macart says:


    This makes a pretty fair case.

  414. Capella says:

    Re different types of Union. I think of it as the difference between a forced marriage and a partnership entered into through choice.

    So why would Scots reject the Union with England which has proved to be so destructive economically, socially and culturally, but choose to join the EU with its support for less favoured areas, scientific research and renewable energy? Which would you rather have? A difficult decision.

  415. Papko says:

    ” but in IndyRef2 Scotland will (as a member of the EU) be the larger stronger party in its negotiations with wee, nationalistic, separatist, little England”


    In the same way that Dublin and Athens dictate terms to Berlin ?

    I think your desire to see England harmed is clouding your judgement, if as you say there will be no border between an EU Eire and NI. then there will be no border between England and Scotland.

    Are there any examples of this anywhere in the EU? Norway Sweden ? Switzerland Germany ?

    AS is more likely to happen,access to the single market is agreed and a concession on border controls is agreed.
    Then there will be no borders true, but how will Scots know they are in the EU or our of it?

    The money sent to Brussels was more than we got back in anycase, so the additional funds can take the place of “EU Funding” , its only our own money given back as “pocket money in any case .

    Once established all the beneficiaries of EU funding will soon realise the butter is spread on the other side.

    Our FM realises this , she pulls the trigger and there is no going back.

    All this chaos and instability as a result of Brexit will be 10 times worse with indyref2 looming, it matters not to the SNP core support in Dundee and Glasgow.
    But its very important to every Scot who is self employed with a mortgage, they will swing the day as they did in 2014.

  416. Macart says:


    Its a toughie right enough. 😀

  417. shug says:

    If anyone is in any doubt about why Scotland must stay in Europe this report is it. I have pulled out some interesting details and at the end there is a link to the document produced by the Scottish Government.

    Exports to the EU were worth £12.9 billion in 20131 (Scottish Government, 2015a).

    By 2013, exports to the EU accounted for 46.3% of Scotland’s international exports.

    Scotland has the highest share of its business economy accounted for by European companies of any UK country or region.

    Nearly one in every six pounds in the Scottish business economy is generated by companies based in the rest of Europe.

    The US is by some margin the largest single inward investor in Scotland with US companies accounting for £11.4 billion of GVA. This is more than double the next largest country, France, at £5 billion of GVA.

    French companies are disproportionately invested in Scotland. Scotland has more French investment than any other part of the UK and accounts for more than one in four pounds (27%) of French companies GVA in the UK.

    In March 2015, the Scottish Government published a report outlining the benefits of Scotland’s EU membership (Scottish Government, 2015b). The report states that 336,000 Scottish jobs are estimated to be directly associated with exports to the EU (excluding the UK).

    For the 2007-2013 programming period, Scotland’s gross illustrative contribution to the EU budget was €7,787 million compared to EU receipts of €6,007 million. The data suggests that during the 2007 to 2013 financial framework Scotland was a net contributor to the EU.

    Between 2007 and 2013 Scotland received around €800 million in European Structural Funds. During the 2014 to 2020 Multiannual Financial Framework, Scotland is likely to receive around €985 million in funding

    Scotland benefits from inward investment from the EU more than any other part of the UK. EU companies add nearly £16 billion to Scotland’s economy and exports to the EU sustain around 150,000 jobs across Scotland.

    Horizon 2020 is the EU’s main funding programme for research and innovation and is fully aligned with major EU policy goals and with the European Research Area, an initiative which seeks to coordinate and pool research efforts across Europe. The programme has a total budget of €76.4 billion and the programme period runs from 2014 to 2020.

  418. Robert Louis says:

    Just for the sake of people here who keep suggesting it, but Westminster can’t stop the Scottish Government holding a referendum. How would they do it? send in the army? The whole notion is something punted a longtime ago by unionists, and sadly many in Scotland seem to have just accepted it as fact.

    Just because Westminster SAY they have ‘power’ over something, doesn’t actually make it true.

    Of course Scotland can hold a referendum if it wants. Westminster does not have magical powers you know. Fact is, Westminster throughout history has asserted such nonsense all over the world (in their colonies), saying x, y or z will ‘not be allowed’ by Westminster. It’s tosh. Stop buying into it.

  419. Papko says:

    Nearly one in every six pounds in the Scottish business economy is generated by companies based in the rest of Europe.


    Where does the five pounds in six come from, then.?

  420. Dr Jim says:

    @Grouse Beater

    You can’t beat a bit of light entertainment

  421. Papko says:

    But compared to the odious UKIP, yes, Scots are morally superior.


    55% of England voted to leave , and 38% of Scotland, is that the moral superiority, you are referring to.

    Is it not true that more SNP voters voted to leave than any other party(according to polling).

    IS there not an element of “blood and soil nationalism” in the SNP support, spite what the gilded, radicals on here say.

  422. Dave McEwan Hill says:


    A child can understand the huge difference between the voluntary EU union and the union Scotland is presently in – as do all of us. You obviously don’t so you can do us the favour of not patronising us on the basis no doubt that you think we are all stupid.

  423. Robert Louis says:

    Shug, at 136pm

    Thanks for your post, Excellent information, very, very useful.

    Leaving the EU would do untold damage to Scotland, and you can be very sure, London would NOT make up any shortfall, for agriculture, infrastructure, science or the many other areas which would be affected.

    Below is the link to the actual SPICe briefing document, created for all MSPs in the Scots Parliament. Well worth a good read.

  424. shug says:


    Just read the paper
    What I am looking for is the amount of EU payments given to farmers and an idea of the number of farms that will close when EU subsidies stop

    One for Fluffy to think about I think

    More concerning to farmers in the highlands and islands where I think whole communities may be at risk

  425. heedtracker says:

    AS is more likely to happen,access to the single market is agreed and a concession on border controls is agreed.
    Then there will be no borders true, but how will Scots know they are in the EU or our of it?

    Why do you think Brussels will agreed to keep the UK in the single market but end freedom of movement Paps?

    Predictable Britnat tory arrogance from dudes like you Paps really but it’d fun to hear why you think you can now dictate NON EU membership terms to an EU based fundamentally on freedom of movement with in its borders.


    Brexit takes the UK out of the richest single market possible. Now UKOK types say we’re not actually leaving this market. Make your silly minds up will you perlease Paps

  426. shug says:

    I always marvel at unionists who think we are better in a union with people who on a daily basis

    •accuse us of being subsidies junkies and scroungers
    •ignore our history and heritage
    •disregard the contribution we have made over the years to the union
    •tell us we should be grateful

    It is not that they dislike Scots they just hold us in complete contempt.

  427. Ian Brotherhood says:

    ‘This is the sound…’


  428. Woody says:

    Funny, there was me thinking we just had a referendum on being in a union with the UK and the answer was Yes – how exactly is it then that the union is “involuntary” ? If you are referring to the fallout of the disastrous Darien scheme entered into by other deluded madmen….And less of the “us” since i have lived in Scotland all my life, raised my family here and paid 000’s of pounds in taxes.

  429. Grouse Beater says:

    Papko: “Is there not an element of “blood and soil nationalism” in the SNP support, spite what the gilded, radicals on here say.”

    Blood and soil nationalism belongs to those who blow battleships out the ocean that are not a threat.

    And it also resides in those who feel Johnny Foreigner is an untrustworthy chap.

    As for those who did not vote in a referendum – only torturers assume silence to be a point of view, those people and unionists.

  430. Macart says:


    Pages 22 and 37 reasonable summing up of investment and subsidy.

  431. Capella says:

    Scot Goes Pop has a post up on holding a Scottish referendum whether Westminster approves or not.

  432. yesindyref2 says:

    @papko meet @woody – EU should be very happy together.

  433. carjamtic says:

    Off to watch Battle Royale…gore with subtitles…on Netflix 😉

    Looks like yoons are hugging their hot water bottles (full of pish),why are you leaving ?

    We’re not….you are.

    Wee Black Book may offer some enlightenment,enjoy.

  434. michael diamond says:

    Papko 1.49pm. If there’s any “blood and soil “’s down here in deepest englandshire.

  435. Juteman says:

    Blood and Soil Nationalism should never be confused with nationalism that is a sense of place and fellowship in an area that you live in. Wanting to care and stand with your neighbours isn’t Blood and Soil shite.

  436. heedtracker says:

    Woody says:
    16 July, 2016 at 2:09 pm
    Funny, there was me thinking we just had a referendum on being in a union with the UK and the answer was Yes – how exactly is it then that the union is “involuntary” ?

    Project Fear, you’re out of the EU, you’ll have no pension, no currency, no defences, your oil’s gone, your too small, stupid, poor, you’ll lose RN war ship contracts, you’re a threat to world peace etc,

    and that’s just one days BBC Scotland terrorising, and Gordon Brown and well we all know the rest. We were also going to get bayoneted by SLab, the wounded that is. Lovely bunch.

  437. defo says:


    Thanks for your well thought out and articulated out reply.

    Emigration northwards from rUK is the logical outcome of the current mess and is going to happen, your right.

    What I was getting at however is how will it play out during the IR2 campaign ?

    Would it be wise to use that scenario as a weapon, business flowing north would work in our favour, people maybe less so.
    Not everyone, even amongst those who voted Yes last time are hot on immigration. Whatever the flavour.

  438. Iain More says:


    Nice is the price of Blood and Soil British Nationalism. The Blood and Soil British Nationalism that had a dirty hand in destabilising Syria, Iraq, Libya and so on. It is more blood on the hands of the exponents of that kind of Nationalism – Blair, Brown, Cameron etc and all those others that hide behind the Union Jack.

    Today the Brit Nat trolls aren’t just being trolls they are being cunts as well.

  439. Free Scotland says:

    Don’t be fooled, people. The inappropriately named time-waster sensibledave is back, but this time he’s changed his name to Woody.

  440. Ian Brotherhood says:

    What is a ‘gilded radical’ anyway?

    Is it a new particle, or someone like Baron ‘Manny’ Shinwell?

  441. Effijy says:

    I went along to the Trident flashmob in Glasgow Buchanan St.

    I am sorry, but for me it didn’t go well.

    The Steps of the gallery was full of Supporters, which included the Communist Party, Scottish Greens, Rainbows,
    Socialist Workers, Solidarity, and another group who wanted someone freed?

    I was behind the Dewar Statue, with many others, and it seemed that the first speaker was already speaking, but no one, other than those on the Steps, could see or hear him?

    Some Buskers were only 50 meters away, but their Amplifier Versus the 2 Watt Mega Phone the Speakers were using was a no contest.

    If anything like this goes on again, could I put forward that the Speakers stand on top of the Steps to Face everyone, and we find a Kitty with a £Fiver in it for the Buskers to buy themselves a coffee break?

    This may cause me problems, but here goes,
    Personally,I love to see people express themselves in their Dress, their hairstyles, Tatoos, whatever.
    But how many of our older citizens ran on rather than listen as they have an unqualified fear of a Punk Rocker with a Blue Mohecan, or a Peace campainer with Blue Hair Tatoos and Facial pearcings?

    There is much that we all must do the set our country free and rid the world of nuclear weapons, and maybe just looking like someone the elderly could approach is part of it?

    Express yourself to fulfilment when the event is over.
    Conceed a little to gain a lot toward your cause.

    My apologies if this offends anyone. It isn’t meant to.

  442. wee e says:

    There’s the flat out empirical fact that we’re once again to have “federal, no, really, honest!” in our faces . The New Act Of Union Bill which gives Scotland’s parliament lots and lots of lovely democracy-tease like oh, putting Westminster MPs in charge of the revising for the Scottish parliament,returning all tax powers to the UK and a few less wee rubbishy powers Scotland won’t miss anyway.
    Take a look at the candid thinking behind it
    in the pdf Towards A New Act Of Union, and the draft Bill itself, which you can find at the website of the Constitution reform group (the Tory right’s anti-Fabian-Society)

    I had a wee google/wiki of the list of steering-group members in the proposal document, since this is now missing from the website itself: very interesting to see this group consists almost entirely of unelected old shitebags, including several behind-the-scenes Tory party functionaries grown far more powerful since Thatcher’s day. the list of “correspondents” is more plainly the reactionary old electoral rejects and bought-my-peerage brigade.

    It’s beyond me to fathom the Bill, which goes off in some directions not mentioned in the proposal, but even I can tell there are strange omissions and some wonderful opportunities in it for setting booby traps for Holyrood.

    Most of it is the same sort of promises they have been dangling in front of us and wheeching away for the last century, including that old never-never chaestnut, abolition of the Lords.

  443. Macart says:

    Immigration has been badly used as a weapon by a whole bunch of evil barstewards in government. They used it to misinform the public to the point where there is now an ingrained narrative that would take years to unravel.

    All we need concern ourselves with is that Scotland needs a certain level of immigration to bolster our economy and our population and leave it there.

    We are internationalists because we want to join in. To become a full member of the family of sovereign nation states.

    As for YES using capital flight as a weapon? Remember how it felt to be threatened with this ourselves defo? How did it feel? I can tell you how it made me feel. Betrayed, angry, resentful and eventually deeply saddened.

    I’ve had a couple of years to think about that and being only human, yeah revenge, schadenfreude all of that is in there, which is why I think we shouldn’t use it in such a manner. We’re not Westminster and we don’t want to be anything like them.

    Look at what they’ve done to the society in their care. Dear God, look at what they’ve become. Is that our future if we sink to their level of divide and rule, intimidation, naked manipulation, misinformation and othering?

    We want a different path from where they are currently heading I reckon and the worst way to begin that particular journey is to continue down a path they’ve already led us down.

    Businesses and people in England will make their own minds up as to whether they wish to continue trade or indeed move to Scotland. We’re not going anywhere, we’re not building walls, simply dissolving a political union. It all comes back to a simple question.

    What KIND of country do you want to live in?

  444. Ian Brotherhood says:

    @wee e –


    ‘The House Of Unelected Old Shitebags’.

    That could catch-on!

  445. Paula Rose says:

    @Effijy that’s why I’m always at the front of a Wings stall and we keep Brian Doonthetoon and Pete the Camera at the back so as not to frighten the old ones.

  446. heedtracker says:

    Are there any examples of this anywhere in the EU? Norway Sweden ? Switzerland Germany ?

    AS is more likely to happen,access to the single market is agreed and a concession on border controls is agreed”

    Well I’ll be UKOK blowed. Ask a Britnat like Paps why he’s so sure of his Brexit assertions and he disappears.

    UKOK funny that Paps.

  447. Smallaxe says:

    We shall overcome
    We shall overcome
    We shall overcome someday

    Deep in my heart
    I do believe
    That WE shall overcome SOMEDAY


  448. yesindyref2 says:

    From infinity, to beyond!

  449. woosie says:

    A lot of eu/uk debating here today. The main difference is that EU is a UNION, whereas Scotland has effectively been absorbed by England, who choose to call this a union, albeit far from equal.

    UK can have a referendum any time they want on membership of EU, but Scotland can’t do the same regarding UK membership.

    Presumably England could be granted a referendum on separating from Scotland whenever they expressed a wish. We live in hope. If the English people demanded a referendum, WM would have to repeat the claims that they subsidise us, or admit they’re lying.

    We live in hope.

  450. bugsbunny says:

    Ian Brotherhood,

    I mind having a wee talk with my miner dad when I was 12. He was telling me about Keir Hardie & Emrys Hughes MP. Then he waxed lyrical about Manny Shinwell, the Marxist Revolutionary. He couldn’t answer me when I asked him, if he was a Marxist, why was he in the House of Lords? He just lit up another pipe.

    In those days miners and ex miners would have voted for a dead cat, if it stood for the Labour Party.

  451. yesindyref2 says:

    Totally agree, but it can be put in a positive way. An Independent Scotland will be open to business and investment from all over the world, including the EU and of course our neighbours in the rUK who will be welcomed to Scotland with open arms, and may enjoy the benefits of a portal in the EU, and the passporting priveleges that the financial sector will enjoy.

    There, that does it.

  452. dramfineday says:

    Paula, it’s not Brian and Pete that scares old folks like me, it’s you in those “Pretty Lucretia”, 4 inch, steel tipped high heels with associated sparkly bits (probably the most dangerous high heels in the world, with a point that would go through a foot, a boot sole and a half inch of floor board if diligently applied). So no blaming Brian and Pete.

  453. heedtracker says:

    In those days miners and ex miners would have voted for a dead cat, if it stood for the Labour Party.

    The end is nye.

    Another of Gordon Brown’s horrifying red tory legacies mostly.


    Scott Arthur ?@DrScottThinks 4h4 hours ago
    Tasmina Sheikh proves beyond reasonable doubt that the SNP have no #Brexit plan:

  454. Ian Brotherhood says:

    Plenty of BTUKOK-dokey old dears have blue hair and earrings, eh?


  455. heedtracker says:


    Fools rush in, red tory fools like

    Duncan Hothersall ?@dhothersall 16h16 hours ago
    Earlier I suggested a bloodless Kemalist coup removing Erdogan might be a reasonable outcome. I deleted it cos it was a stupid thing to say.

  456. Macart says:


    That should do it. 🙂

    Absolutely essential IMO though, that we don’t use the approach which was used against us.

  457. Lochside says:

    Disappointed no one responding to my point about SG being able to apply now to EU for official confirmation of our status as remaining nation.

    The fact is that the SG now has the right to appeal directly for this information unlike during the REF when we were blocked by the UK.

    This judgement once given would save all the doubts aboutArticle 50: either the advice would be become Independent or you’re fucked,go and drown along with the rest of the stupid Rukers

    BTW Why are regulars arguing with state funded trolls on here instead of discussing the real world?

  458. Capella says:

    @ Lochside – perhaps the council of experts is in touch with the EU commission now to find out the official position.
    Re trolls – I never mention the word troll except in reference to the supreme trolls in the House of Trolls i.e. Westminster, Palace of.
    Complete ignoral is the only policy.

  459. Kevin Evans says:


    Yea I was at George square the day before the vote and I have to admit I seen some sights on the yes side that were more vocal than other. One guy in particular who was holding a guitar was pointing at the city chambers shouting about how no’ers had no culture and were scum. But we don’t want to exclude anyone maybe try and curb the more vocal ones and promote the more inclusive people. Much like the trick the BBC played the Sunday before the vote on Sunday politics by sticking on Tommy Sheridan at a time were a lot of middle class maybes were watching and scare them with socialism.

    I remember though an old guy telling of a time when he was going to get a ticket to park and as he was at the machine a big guy in a leather jacket and long hair came running up to him to tell him he had a ticket with an hour still remaining on it and to take that as he was going. The old guy said he would never judge someone again on there dress and that made a big impact on him and his own prejudices.

  460. heedtracker says:

    A Murdoch henchman gets telt.

    Kenny Farquharson ?@KennyFarq Jul 15
    / Moral of the story for Sturgeon, who demanded Scottish role in negotiations: Be careful what you ask for. You might actually get it.
    30 retweets 41 likes

    Nicola SturgeonVerified account
    @KennyFarq what WOULD I do without these pearls of wisdom? I might have to think things through carefully for myself (?)

  461. yesindyref2 says:

    I think the EU in its various guises made it definite that they can’t officially talk to us until we’re Independent, so first we have the YES vote, then we talk officially to them.

  462. Vambomarbeleye says:

    Can we not just get hold of the articles of union and disappear them.

  463. yesindyref2 says:

    Nice one. Yes, when engaging the enemy it’s always a good idea to anticipate their moves, be ready to counter them, and have an objective in mind. Once objective is achieved, be prepared to withdraw with the gains intact. I shall call that “The Tactics of Objectives”. Or something!

  464. Garles says:

    Work away in England all week (well until the border is blocked) and at the weekend usally take grandkids to the park.

    Well wee fluffy has a brand new office (auld bakers shop) in Lockerbie but some wit has put “ban trident ” on the railings next to the office. “What’s trident papa”. something that’s going to be booted out of Scotland very soon.Start them young before they get rubbish history a primary school

  465. Effijy says:

    The Daily Hail is in Good Form today:

    Mundell says SNP Remain hopes are Fanciful?
    Is that as Fanciful as a Country with 59 MPs being Controlled by 1 solitary MP?

    Leadsom advises that you should not employ Male Nannies as they might be paedophiles?
    She should have added that former MPs are a great deal more likely to be practicing paedos!

    Cameron gives extra Tax payer cash to his former team_
    Fellow Old Etonian, Ed Llewellyn, among those spin doctors pay offs of £70,000 each.
    Who said lying and crime doesn’t pay?
    I didn’t need nor want their work and don’t want to pay extra!

    Tory Rail Minister get a very small corner of the paper as Claire Perry resigns with embarrassment at the chaos that is the Southern Rail Routes!
    Can you imagine how many pages and days and weeks that story would run for, if it happened in Scotland?

    A few hundred jobs lost through Brexit when Low Cost Holidays collapsed.
    First of many thousands to go due to England’s Brexit!

    Emma Cowling- Columnist? May out guns Sturgeon as May has united the Party and the Country???????????????
    Sturgeon is too busy listening to the Scots and looking at their latest voting trends, not to focus on uniting Scotland in the 2014 referendum result and the lies that delivered it?

    Under cover reporter Peter McGlone catches one of Glasgow’s growing number of beggars using a mobile phone! “LIKELY, he was using it to call another beggar!
    He made £7 per hour from generous Glaswegians but finishes with all the warnings of why shouldn’t encourage them?

    MPs expenses, New Brexit Secretary, David Davies claimed £126.00 for subscription to the Economist magazine?
    He obviously should be taking future advice from them.

    Isn’t that Rag and the UK Government in an Eton Mess.

  466. VikingsDottir says:

    I’ve started to wonder about the delusional ideas I’m hearing about the Brexit. I’m one of the 38% that voted Leave, as I did in 1975. That was a long time to wait to be released from what I see as an unnecessary union with the countries that we helped to set free in 1945, and a lot of my taxes down the drain.
    I don’t want to be dragged back into the dysfunctional EU. I want to be free: free from the swivel eyed old men that don’t like direct democracy.
    As for the SNP. What part of ‘freedom’ is that they don’t understand? They’re making independence contingent on being part of an organisation that is on its last legs, instead of working to improve the lives of the people who put them where they are. They could start by looking into our taking back our control of the North Sea, which will give our fishing industry a long overdue boost, and, if you really want one word that describes the EU here it is. Greece.

  467. cearc says:


    Once art.50 is filed then we can ask stuff. Right now we are a part of the EU member state of Uk and the EU avoids interfering in the internal politics of their members. Hence the lack of anything during Indyref.

    Once Brexit is in writing then they don’t really need to worry about that. I am wondering whether our ‘joining/staying status’ will enable us to ask for EU monitors for Indyref2? However, until art.50 is invoked we can only get vague diplomatic mumblings.

  468. heedtracker says:

    They could start by looking into our taking back our control of the North Sea, which will give our fishing industry a long overdue boost, and, if you really want one word that describes the EU here it is. Greece.

    Same old bollox. Last time “our fishing industry” had a long overdue boost, they emptied the seas of life, oceanic and coastal. Estuaries that once teamed with life, dead, rivers that once teamed with life, all dead.

    And then same nutters headed off to Iceland, to empty their seas for them.

    Without the EU in charge of UKOK seas, they’re now at the end of days. And what will the Leave fisher dudes buy with their fish profits? Mercs and Beemers.

  469. Thepnr says:


    Just love it that you “want to be free” and that you want to “take back control”. From what exactly? The EU’s influence on Scottish matters is nothing compared to Westminster who have TOTAL control.

    The only way “to be free” and “take back control” is supporting Independence.

  470. Dr Jim says:

    @ VikingsDimmer

    What pub do get your information from

  471. schrodingers cat says:


    there’s a difference between historical revisionism and re-writing history to suit ones agenda.

    it was thatcher who sold out the scottish fishermen, to the spanish in exchange for the rebate.

    the scottish fishermen have never been represented by the snp, indeed the snp have been barred from all eu talks regarding the scottish fishing brounds by the unionist, who regard and have frequently said in public the scots fishermen are expendable.

    vote yes

    once indy we will see what we can do, if the eu wont play ball, then i will campaign to leave the eu. but that is a fish to fry another day. eitherway, the snp would never use eu citizens or fishermen as barganing tokens in the way westminster has done.

  472. yesindyref2 says:

    @Dr Jim – the “Prospect of Whitby”?

  473. Ian Murray says:

    Scotland are still going to trade with England they will not give up that option when EU membership comes along.Our export numbers will be stronger and the 1.3 billion pounds whisky exports will come back in house instead of showing up in Englands ledger.How many more industries have we been losing out on.
    I am confident that Nicola and her team are way ahead of us all with her plans but I hope this is not Obe wan kenobe in the Bridge over the River Kwai

  474. Dr Jim says:


    And another thing, WE didn’t fight wars to save people in the EU The folk in the EU died all over the place just the same as our soldiers did
    The soldiers in the EU were NOT less brave or stupid than anyone else but they’re just as dead

    Whether wars are right wrong or indifferent one thing’s for sure the folk who send our soldiers to die everywhere and still do send them, those particular folk tend to be rich upper class elite in parliament keep getting richer and are NOT dead

    Does that fill you with pride Twit

  475. mike cassidy says:

    “BBC too balanced” shock!

    And a lovely quote justifying it!

    And for those ‘getting nostalgic’ for the old Labour days, have a read at this terrific article from 2002 that I posted a while back for Mr.Peffers.

    Those were indeed the days!

  476. heedtracker says:

    it was thatcher who sold out the scottish fishermen, to the spanish in exchange for the rebate.

    There are hardly any Scottish fishermen left now SC! What’s left has clearly been targeted by the UKOK Brexiteer gimps, for their silly take back control jibber jabber.

    Its also a neat divert from the real tory problem with art 50. We can see it even here on WoS, the bizarre kidology from planet toryboy, that the UK is somehow going to stay in the EU free trade single market and block immigration.

    Lots of toryboys are at it. Thatcher 2’s gripped Sturgeon tight but its just to make sure that when the shitstorm kicks off, everyone gets clarted in it. And ofcourse the great BBC lie machine will protect Thatcher 2.

    Adam Tomkins MSP Retweeted
    Kenny Farquharson ?@KennyFarq Jul 15
    / If May delivers access to single market and an Australian points system that favours immigration to Scotland, what does Sturgeon do?
    25 retweets 18 likes

    Adam Tomkins MSP Retweeted
    Kenny Farquharson ?@KennyFarq Jul 15
    / May is trying to lock Sturgeon into a common UK position, rather than have her on the outside as a critic.

  477. mike cassidy says:

    Dr Jim 5.27

    “it’s just rich cunts, telling dumb cunts to kill poor cunts”

  478. Marcia says:


    Tomkins comes over as a Yoonatic.

  479. galamcennalath says:

    I find it utterly astonishing when idiots compare the relatively light touch of the EU on Scottish life, compared to the overwhelming intrusion of Westminster.

    They kid no one, but perhaps themselves.

    Who bribes us to stay in Union then breaks the promises?
    Who dumps WMDs on Scotland against our will?
    Who takes us into imperialist wars?
    Who controls most of our taxes?
    Who spends our money on massive infrastructure projects elsewhere?
    Who forces laws upon us which our elected representatives reject?
    Who sidelines our elected representatives on every matter?
    Who tries to drag us out of international treaties against our will?
    Etc etc etc

    … Not the EU for sure.

  480. stewartb says:


    Am I getting this right? Some pro-indy supporters are deciding after all that the prospect of an independent Scotland, free from Westminster control after 300 years, is just not enough freedom for them. And because of this, they are now willing to split the core yes vote by no longer supporting independence in IndyRef2 …. unless the SNP commits to ditching membership of the UK and the EU at the same time.

    And do you think these same people would really put Scotland’s independence at risk having come so far and now so close? As you can imagine, its good to be crystal clear about these things before we have to rely on the corporate media telling us all about this split!

    I’ve not any patience with this point of view at this crucial time.

  481. Papko says:

    Ian Brotherhood says:

    What is a ‘gilded radical’ anyway?

    Is it a new particle, or someone like Baron ‘Manny’ Shinwell?

    I meant it to convey the affluent ,educated, socially mobile, talented folk on here, with their radical ideas.

    I never thought of the physics definition,though would imagine Galloway, Sheridan and Sillars would all fit the bill.

  482. heedtracker says:

    Marcia says:
    16 July, 2016 at 5:48 pm

    Tomkins comes over as a Yoonatic

    Hey that’s my Slovene girlfriend! He’s certainly an interesting eh…insight into a particular rule Britannia tory English mindset. Its also interesting how Brexit’s brought his BetterTogether Slovenia fury out of retirement. It must be that be big a deal for the UKOK crew.

    Hope we don’t screw up this once in a lifetime chance, by actually listening to Prof T and his merry band of BBC style Britnats.

  483. mealer says:

    If Kezia Dugdale doesn’t want to choose between two unions she’ll have to abstain.

  484. Grouse Beater says:

    Brotherhood: ‘The House Of Unelected Shitebags’

    Isn’t that the novel Edgar Allan Poe never got published, the writer famous for ‘The Fall of the House of Usher’?

  485. Papko says:

    michael diamond says:
    16 July, 2016 at 2:36 pm
    Papko 1.49pm. If there’s any “blood and soil “’s down here in deepest englandshire

    I can appreciate that
    55% of those that voted in England voted LEAVE

    38% of those that voted in Scotland voted LEAVE.

    Polling shows that 30% of SNP voters,who voted, voted to LEAVE.

    If the 55% in England are UKIP, anti-immigrant, blood and soil nationalists.

    Then its not stretching the point to suggest that 30% of the SNP vote is similar.

  486. Ian Brotherhood says:

    @Papko –

    I don’t know how you can tell any commenter’s financial status just by reading what they have to say about stuff in general. Never mind.

    And there’s nothing ‘radical’ about wanting to get as far away from WM Tory rule as possible.

    Heck, plenty of us would welcome Scottish Tories with open arms and have hearty debates with them until the cows come home, but in an independent nation they’d be ‘our’ Tories, real ones, not jumped-up ex-BBCers who sound the part and like mounting stuff. All they have to do is a wee rebranding exercise which loses the word ‘unionist’, then we’ll all get along famously.

    Have a braw Saturday nicht!

  487. Luigi says:

    Ignore the Viking troll, trying to sow seeds of doubt among us. Will there be a wee bit of two-way traffic following BREXIT? Undoubtably (there always is), but the net effect will be an increase in support for independence. 🙂

  488. Proud Cybernat says:

    Herald running IndtRef#2 poll.

    “If a second independence referendum was called today, how would you vote?”


    Leave UK 78%
    Stay in UK 19&
    Don’t Know 3%

    Cast your vote here:

    (I know it’s the Herald and I don’t normally post direct links to their rag. Just thought you might want to vote and let Maggie May know we’re sick to the back teeth of her cereal).

  489. Robert Peffers says:

    This Prime Minister’s speech has obviously been written by the same Westminster Establishment propaganda exponent that wrote all Cameron’s speeches. It contains all exactly the same propaganda lies.

    “I believe with all my heart in the United Kingdom — the precious bond between England, Scotland, Wales and Northern Ireland”.(Err! No Dear! The United Kingdom is a union between only the Kingdoms of Scotland & England. Both Wales & N.I were/are parts of the Kingdom of England
    … “This visit to Scotland is my first as prime minister and I’m coming here to show my commitment to preserving this special union that has endured for centuries.

    That’s because I believe in a union, not just between the nations of the United Kingdom,”, No Dear! It is two Kingdoms not four nations. … “but between all of our citizens. Whether it’s reforming the economy or strengthening our society, we are going to build a better Britain” No Dear! You cannot build a better Britain as you are only PM of the UK bit of Britain, … “and a nation that works for everyone — not just the privileged few, “The best future for Scotland is inside the United Kingdom economy.”, Sheesh! As the man wi the widen leg said – that’s a maiter o a pin yin.

    Let’s make this United Kingdom economy work for all of us and let’s negotiate with the European Union, from outside the European Union, a relationship which works for Britain,” UK Dear! You have no powers over the whole of Britain.

    … “and works for Europe so we can have as close a relationship in trade and commerce as we possibly can while being outside the European Union — as the British people have determined we should be. … No Dear! The People of the English & Welsh part of the United Kingdom voted that way, The rest of the UK and those parts of Britain outwith the UK either voted otherwise or were not included in the UK only referendum.

    … “However we voted, we are part of the United Kingdom”, Yes! Yes! I believe she’s got it! I think she’s got it! , … and we have democratic decisions made across the United Kingdom. We will now implement the decision that the people of the United Kingdom collectively have made to leave the European Union.“

  490. Papko says:

    Well I’ll be UKOK blowed. Ask a Britnat like Paps why he’s so sure of his Brexit assertions and he disappears.

    UKOK funny that Paps.


    I base my opinion on the fact that a solution will have to be arrived at.

    Even UKIP want access to the single market , and the UK is a big market for the EU, so get the deal, with an odd concession on the borders, to placate some, a few caveats , and we are away with the mixer again.

    We will still pay in like Norway and Switzerland do , and the whole thing will have been a big waste of time and money, but so was the Somme.
    Besides clear blue skies cant go on forever , we need rough spells like these , choppy waters and chaos,helps us appreciate security when it returns.

    Has the EU ever made a decision? take the Greek debt crisis, the German imposed austerity, the ECB AND QE .

    They fudge all the time as well.

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