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The silent coup

Posted on November 04, 2022 by

In the 2021 Scottish Parliament election, the Scottish Greens received just 4.7% of all the votes cast. (255,314 of 5,419,544). The SNP got 44% – almost 10 times as many.

So we’re not sure how the Greens – a party that well over 90% of Scots don’t support – suddenly appear to be in charge.

Nor, perhaps more to the point, do we understand why.

Because the gender reform bill won its first reading by 88 votes to 33. It’s supported by four of the five parties in the Parliament. And the Greens would have voted for it anyway, because it’s basically the only thing Patrick Harvie’s micro-party of woman-haters, paedophile apologists and nappy fetishists cares about.

So why would Nicola Sturgeon put the SNP in a straitjacket just to secure support for a bill that was going to pass no matter what? What did she actually get out of the deal that put Harvie and his brainless Canadian sidekick in ministerial jobs on six-figure salaries and gave them the power to dictate what SNP MSPs could and couldn’t do?

This isn’t a rhetorical question leading up to a bit where we explain. We really don’t know. The SNP governed as a minority from 2016 to 2021 with almost no defeats, because it was in a hugely strong Parliamentary position. Then, just as now, it only required ONE of the opposition parties to back any given bill to deliver a majority.

So if the SNP wanted to pass something vaguely left-wing it would be supported by Labour. If it wanted to pass something vaguely right-wing, the Tories would vote with it. And if it wanted to pass something totally barking batshit mad, even the backing of the Lib Dems or the Greens would get the job done.

There was never any discernible reason for the Bute House deal. The Greens conceded basically nothing. Anything they didn’t like in the SNP’s policy programme was specifically excluded so that they could continue to oppose it.

Had the deal not existed and Sturgeon had allowed her MSPs a free vote on the gender bill, almost half of them would have had to vote against it to imperil its progress. And as we know the SNP’s Parliamentary cohort has now been almost completely purged of anyone with the courage to dissent from the Dear Leader’s orders, that seems a terribly long shot.

(In practical effect the vote WAS a free one, because Sturgeon can’t afford to withdraw the whip from the rebels – throwing seven MSPs out of the party would leave the SNP/Green coalition short of a majority. And while the arithmetic detailed three paragraphs above would still apply, she’s such a paranoid and weak leader that the idea would terrify her. And yet still only seven out of 64 stood up to be counted, despite the unlikelihood of facing punishment.)

So we’ve got nothing. If anyone has any explanations, we’re all ears.

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    124 to “The silent coup”

    1. Andy Ellis says:

      If ye fly wi’ the craws, ye’ll get shot wi’ the craws….

    2. Shaking My Head says:

      There’s an easy way to find out: get Gillian Sturgeon to channel ‘dead granny Mary’ at a Tarot card reading and tell you. A loony FM and a psychic – both the girls in that family acted out in weird ways. Somebody should have paid them more attention as kids. Apparently growing up in no-horse-village Dreghorn can do funny things to somebody’s head. Interesting that the FM’s parents were so young when they had her – mother 17, dad 21. Mother has always been an SNP supporter, and later a politician. Wonder if she passed on her political urges to her eldest daughter to live vicariously through…

      https://www.sundaypost.com/fp/nicola-sturgeon-sister-interview/

    3. Confused says:

      Nikki is greener than the greens, she has admitted as much; the princess of woke needs her two-headed sidekick as plausible deniability and judas goat should the dumb voters ever notice what is going on.

      – but it is all really coming from her.

      In a strange “coincidence” the Spanish are passing a tranny ID law similar to ours right now. It is almost as if there is some force, behind the scenes, manipulating these issues at a transnational level.

    4. Kat says:

      I’m as baffled as you and will be scouring the comments to see if anyone does.

      But what I do know is that I would not trust the SNP to negotiate their way out of a wet paper bag let alone becoming independent from the UK.

    5. Scott says:

      All votes in the chamber should be ‘free’.

      It’s unlawful to compel someone to do something with threat of punishment for non-compliance unless an order from a Court is in place.

      We all owe a duty to the common good in the first instance. Any other membership commitments [Political party/*Secret Society*/Religion/Professional body et al] come below that.

      JFC:

      FM is chosen only by the elected members, not by the wider electorate. Corollary – we don’t ever, in effect, vote to elect a governing Party either.

      FM can invite members from any ‘Party’ to form the body collectively known as The Scottish Ministers (Government) and in the name of ‘natural justice’ would be the right thing to do for the aforementioned common good. It could also see payments from public purse to ‘opposition parties with no members in the Executive’ stop. Tories/LAB/LD might be receiving cash to help them conduct the duties they were elected to perform in the first place….but this is for ‘Parliament’ to decide, it’s only an option.

      See Scotland Act 1998: http://www.legislation.gov.uk/ukpga/1998/46/enacted

      The Scottish Ministers should always be a coalition, just as the Parliament is supposed to be in Scotland.

      Corollary: WM should operate by the same principles – ie for the common good of the people of Scotland and no other body.

      Change is needed and is coming…yw,hth

    6. She/her would have won the vote without the whip being needed,

      but would it have showed a much larger ammount of moral SNP MSPs voting against the vote,

      giving MSM/BBC a `SNP revolt/civil war` headline to run with their obsession with ferries.

    7. Vivian O’Blivion says:

      Sturgeon isnae being held hostage by the Greens. Her Trans monomania is absolute, just not for the reason many assume.
      GRA “reform” is a means of exercising internal control within the cult.
      If it became expedient to throw the Trans. “community” under the big, yellow, gravy bus, she’d dae it in a heartbeat.
      Every cult must have a specific, outlandish, core tenet. Something to differentiate them from the “unbelievers”.
      The tenet is multi-functional within the group. To gain access to the cult a disciple must repeat the tenet. The tenet is deployed as a mantra to increase cohesion of the group. Those who repeat the tenet most loudly and most often are promoted within the group. The competence and abilities of those selected for promotion are an irrelevance. Devotion to the tenet is all. Subservience to the cult leader as expressed through evangelising the tenet is paramount. The tenet defines the group. The tenet binds the group. The tenet is used by the cult leader to control the group.
      Sound familiar?
      Curiously, actually “believing” the tenet as a factual truth is not required by the upper echelons of the cult. Vincent Bugliosi (prosecuting District Attorney) was of the opinion that Charles Manson didn’t believe a word of Helter Skelter. This cynicism towards the core tenet the nearer the top of the managerial pyramid is inherent in all cults / religions.

    8. KathyT says:

      “In a strange “coincidence” the Spanish are passing a tranny ID law similar to ours right now. It is almost as if there is some force, behind the scenes, manipulating these issues at a transnational level.”

      Have you heard of the Denton’s Report? This article covers it: https://www.spectator.co.uk/article/the-document-that-reveals-the-remarkable-tactics-of-trans-lobbyists/
      And the actual report can be found here: https://www.iglyo.com/wp-content/uploads/2019/11/IGLYO_v3-1.pdf

    9. Robert says:

      I haven’t a clue as to the answer, but for me a more interesting question is:
      Since the SGP have zero tolerance for anything that deviates the merest iota from the purest form of transgender ideology—as showed by their recent voting to cut ties with their sister party in England & Wales over alleged “transphobia” (basically not being pure enough)—how will Nicola’s (so far) failure to expel the rebels sit with the SGP? Will they suck it up and expose their own impotence over the one issue they care most about? Or will they threaten to leave the coalition (sacrificing those ministerial salaries)?

    10. Hatuey says:

      It’s a trick question on a number of levels. First, because it assumes we give a fuck. Secondly, because it assumes we give a fuck. And third, most importantly, because it assumes we give a fuck.

      Another reason it’s a trick question is that it assumes there is some rational logical purpose in the behaviour of narcissistic sociopathic weirdos. If there is, it’s likely that rational logical people wouldn’t be able to fathom it.

      Sturgeon is simply a tragedy for the Scottish people, as damaging as a natural disaster that leaves hundreds of thousands homeless, poverty stricken, and destroyed. There’s no sense in wondering why the tornado went this way or that…

      All that’s left is to mourn.

    11. Confused says:

      good link KathyT

      hypocrisy is also a big part of it; “for thee but not for me”

      https://nypost.com/2022/11/01/alarmed-parents-hire-consultants-to-combat-woke-school-agendas/

      rich parents are buying their kids out of this mental violence.

    12. Republicofscotland says:

      Erm let’s see to stack inquires with friendly faces, to ensure VONC wins every time, to have no need to approach the other three parties at Holyrood for support, to lay the groundwork for more GRR type bills.

      To broaden the appeal of the SNP by showing how inclusive they are to young voters who are pro GRR. Whatever the reasons are you can bet that Sturgeon has her own agenda at heart, and the Greens being in office are part of that, thrashed out in some seedy backroom deals that we’ll never be privy to.

    13. Cenchos says:

      The Greens are a whipping boy insurance policy for when the nu SNP’s wheels really start to come off.

    14. Ian Brotherhood says:

      Here’s just one example of Sturgeon’s performance from this morning at the Audit Committee.

      She was narky and rattled after less than half an hour in and repeated this kind of waffle repeatedly.

      I didn’t see it all but just off the top of my heid, we discovered that there was no cabinet scrutiny/debate prior to important decisions (unless you count being informed ‘retrospectively’ as some kind of ‘discussion’) and she cannot supply even a ballpark figure for the completion costs.

      twitter.com/markthehibby/status/1588504832893419520

    15. Chas says:

      In years gone by most people in Scotland joined the ‘Politics’ game with the hope/intention/dream of making a difference to those around them. This was true at both local and national level.

      I know personally of one individual who attended Council Meetings 3 or 4 nights per week, in addition to his day job. For this he received NOTHING in lieu of a salary or expenses. ‘Promotion’ to County/National level was possible generally as a result of competence shown. The person concerned declined the opportunity to stand as an MP due to his friendship/loyalty to the sitting MP.

      Look at the situation nowadays-people are leaving school/university with no real life experience whatsoever. Tempted by generous salaries/expenses for doing next to nothing it would appear. I think that I am correct in stating that the MP for Paisley was elected to Westminster aged 19. What has she achieved since apart from increasing her Bank balance! Her colleagues in Westminster doing exactly the same. Some are entering Politics with one or two fixed agendas only. That is all that matters to them. The Greens in Scotland fall in to this category.

      No qualifications are required to be a Politician. How many Ministers in Holyrood/Westminster are in positions of power, responsible for billions of pounds, and have no experience or expertise in the area they are supposedly responsible for. They have to rely on the increasing numbers of Civil Servants/Advisors-all paid from the public purse.

      The Political System in the whole of the UK is broken, probably beyond repair, as we can all see from they mess we are in. Can anyone see our competent, intelligent, brave Politicians opting for change? Do turkeys vote for Xmas?

      To my mind, to be elected as an MP or MSP, any prospective candidate must have shown some expertise/proficiency in some area in life. Blind loyalty to whatever cause/individual is not enough. Regrettably I do not see this changing any time soon.

    16. Ian Brotherhood says:

      ‘repeated repeatedly…’

      🙁

    17. George Ferguson says:

      Tentative suggestions. Firstly the FM wanted a fresh injection of ideas and energy (Doesn’t matter if the policies are controversial) and the FM couldn’t see that in her own backbenchers. The SNP backbenchers are complacent and are simply not hungry enough. Secondly same as Republic of Scotland. To have a watertight defence against VONC. Some bad news down the track. A negative Supreme Court decision on the IndyRef question with a serious ticking off. Or as a serial misleader gets caught out telling porkies A strange decision to rely on the Greens for someone like the FM who would have a fight without a second thought.

    18. Liz says:

      Just to add.
      I don’t know anyone with a good word to say about Sturgeon but they have just got another councillor voted in.

      Is the whole of Scotland is some kind of mad trance?
      Can no one see them for the disaster they are?

    19. Derek says:

      …with a silent “p”, I note with amusement!

    20. Ottomanboi says:

      Scotland, under the SNP’s «dirty mac» brigade, is assuming the appearance of some sleazy, third-worldish perv’s paradise.
      No place for kids.

    21. Republicofscotland says:

      The man who likes to see people fighting fires on multiple fronts said this.

      “I can confirm what Pete says is correct. The reason that there were so many SNP MPs absent from the debate on independence was they had important prior engagements with corporate lobbyists in the Palace of Westminster. These are the people we need to win over.”

      https://twitter.com/PeterMurreIl/status/1588286452583976960?cxt=HHwWgMCq_aGH3YosAAAA

    22. Republicofscotland says:

      Apologies looks like it’s a parody account @4.20pm.

    23. Themadmurph says:

      Rev. Stu,
      I know my eyes are probably deceiving me and I’ll get a “no idea what you’re talking about” reply, but I’m pretty sure the minority governments were 2007-2011 and 2016 onwards. I’m fairly sure the period between was a majority.

    24. Hatuey says:

      I haven’t looked at the detail of the ferries fiasco that has cost the taxpayer many millions and resulted in all sorts of delays and inconvenience for people who live on islands, etc.

      But I’ll bet on this; at the root of the decisions that caused all the hassle, we will find another vindictive point-scoring exercise, intended to personally hurt someone/people and put them in their place.

      Coz that’s how the hairy rolls, ya bass.

    25. orri says:

      Perhaps the reason the SNP are backing out of any commitment to a plebiscite GE is because they know it’d work. At the moment they can sell their souls, and women’s rights, as the price for Green support without which they have no assured independence supporting majority.

    26. Allium says:

      I wonder if she thought setting up an SNP/Green coalition would look good on her post-politics CV?

      Agree that she’s totally on board with them though, and likes their energy/activist base. She would probably prefer to be in the Greens herself, as she isn’t interested in the economy or infrastructure, never mind independence – preferring instead to legislate in stranger waters.

      The Greens really do call all the shots, whether on roads, energy, or the GRA. Its creepy that she’s so in thrall to them, and very odd that no-one else senior in the SNP seems to find it embarrassing or demeaning – or simply illogical – to be constantly deferring to these oddballs with delusions, who can’t even manage a decent media appearance between them.

    27. Lorna Campbell says:

      Because she herself believes in it. I thought for a long time that it was all a gimmick to get young voters on board and to keep her own, and Daddy Bear’s, young blue-haired ones in the fold. Until she made that video. Until she went on television and told an interviewer that gender critical women were basically making a mountain out of a molehill, that it was all perfectly safe, when only complete braincell-less-ness could account for that level of delusion. There was real animus in her tone.

      She believes in this unadulterated, dangerous lunacy, and/or she believes in what is behind it – which is mega, mega mega bucks, neoliberal capitalism, Big Tech, Big Pharma, Big Prosthetics, etc. Behind the billionaires are the loony left, the nihilists, never happier than when they are destroying the fabric of society.

      You could almost feel sorry for the latter if they were not so vile and dangerous. When they try this stuff in other parts of the world, they’ll soon discover what ‘no debate’ and “getting strung up by the balls” really mean. As if they would have the balls in the first place to try out, say, Afghanistan.

      May I suggest that Nicola Sturgeon, Lorna Slater, Shona Robison, Kirsty Blackman, Mhairi Black and the sundry other handmaidens of the female ("Tractor" - Ed)s brigade put their money where their big fat gobs are and do a stint in one of the top female prisons where ‘trans’ women are housed. According to a number of these incarcerated women, cockerel displays are par for the course, as is communal showering and sharing cells.

      They could take Patrick Harvie, Daddy Bear, John Nicholson in with them. Say… a couple of weeks to a month? Then they can come back and tell us all how proud they are to have shared their female experiences with such fine woman-facing gents. Oh, did I forget to say that most of them are sex offenders? Och, never mind. Nothing like learning on the job, eh?

    28. twathater says:

      THIS whole debacle is why I believe so much in SALVO and the SSRG ,these politicians are ripping the pish out of Scots and Scotland , there is no recall law in holyrood that I am aware of, WM has one which is totally ineffectual as it requires a parliamentary body of (would you believe it) politicians to proceed with it, and we all know their predilection for honesty and integrity

    29. Ian Brotherhood says:

      @Lorna Campbell (5.22) –

      Ha!

      It would make compulsive viewing too.

      ‘I’m A Total Throbber Get Me Out Of Here!’

    30. James Gardner says:

      INEPTITUDE !

    31. Denise says:

      My only possible explanation is –
      Her handler told her to do it.
      Maybe the Brits want to bring down Sturgeon and the SNP and part of the plan is to use the madness of the Greens.

      It’s all I’ve got

    32. Ali T says:

      She wanted to govern with a guaranteed majority. That was all. Nothing fancy about it.

    33. Merganser says:

      She got three things.

      First was the satisfaction of sticking two fingers up at Alex Salmond and Alba.
      Second was the satisfaction of sticking two fingers up at Labour.
      Third was the satisfaction of sticking two fingers up…take your pick.

    34. Ian Brotherhood says:

      Has anyone seen any substantial analysis of Sturgeon’s performance at the ‘ferries’ inquiry this morning?

      I’ve seen a few tweets with snippets of the more obvious lies, blinking and facial twitching but where is the informed opinion on what she actually said?

      God only knows there was none on BBC Radio Scotland News. Quelle surprise…

    35. John Main says:

      @Chas 2:37

      Good post.

      A question comes to mind (soz):

      If entry to WM/HR is as easy and lucrative as you suggest, why are none of the dedicated and savvy BTL posters on here getting stuck in?

      I recall reading an interview with US left-wing activist Michael Moore. He claimed that it was the easiest thing in the world to stand for office – you just do it. You explain your pitch. You ask people to vote for you.

      If your policies resonate, if your character is sound, if you put in the effort, you get votes. It’s not rocket science.

      Endless posts on here from people who have spent years, soon to be decades, bemoaning the lack of progress on Indy.

      Yet not one of them prepared to stand up, say “sod it”, and stand for office themselves.

      And week after week, posting about how ineffectual and how useless their elected representatives are, and how simple the problems would be to solve.

      Does not compute, does it?

    36. John Main says:

      @Hats 4:24

      Don’t look at the detail.

      Your posts are more entertaining when fact-free.

    37. HOW DID THE SNP END UP IN THIS GROTESQUE CUL-de-SAC?

      Nicola Sturgeon survives in office because there too many people in SNP cumfy seats in Westminster, Holyrood, Glasgow Council and SNP HQ!

      My own journey may fully desribe her rise to power and her retention of it:

      1. When I joined the SNP in 1974, a mandate for Independence would be obtained when the Party won a majority of the Scottish MPs sent to Westminster. This “Big Bang Theory” was accepted by (almost) everyone, including Margaret Thatcher and, way before her, Winston Churchill. Devolution changed everything in the 1990s when Alex Salmond persuaded most Nationalists (including me) to accept Devolution as a “first step to Independence”. “If only we could show the poor Scottish people that, with limited self-government powers, we could make a go of running things for ourselves, surely the path to full-blooded Independence would be obvious!” This route was to prove an unattainable mirage.

      2. Salmond put far too much faith in Nicola Sturgeon in the old days, thinking he could control her. While he attended to constitutional and economics matters as FM, she was his deputy who had free rein over health, social care and other social matters – a huge remit. He trusted her, which he must bitterly regret now! However, she was not on the same personal agenda which I have discovered in my research. Whether they had a “lavender marriage” or not, the Murrells, Peter and Nicola, had a plan for private power and control in political life. I believe Salmond, who is on record as objecting to the pair being at the top of the Party and Government, stated when he was on his way out as FM. It was too late then and the Murrells just ignored him. He should have done something about it when he was in power, not complained afterwards. A few high-profile people, such as Kenny MacAskill, objected but it was also too late. Since then, Sturgeon has successfully ridden two horses as Leader of the Party, with her husband as a mere apparatchik, and, separately, as First Minister, . She has successfully convinced many people – for example within the MSM – that she has Chinese walls in her brain. No pillow talk between the Murrells, of course!

      3. One crucial thing that Salmond did was introduce a popular referendum of the Scottish electorate as a necessary step to go through to achieve Independence. “Surely after achieving a majority of SNP MSPs at Holyrood (as in 2011 but not repeated since then) and at Westminster (as in 2015 and thereafter), we could win a referendum of the people”. But it was not to be.

      4. This alternative Gradualism (akin to “Steady State Theory” in Physics), plus a a steady Party growth, allowed the SNP to attract: (a) lots of mediocre carpet-baggers who saw a career at Holyrood, one that they couldn’t achieve outside, and (b) lobby and other action groups to latch on to this new rising political movement, not just the usual lefty-liberal types but emerging forces like Feminism, LGBT and others, who seldom saw the pursuit of Independence as their cause, but a suitable “local” vehicle to associate with. These groups returned little to us but Sturgeon (and others) were receptive, new forces within politics to court – and with her particular persona and psyche, she reciprocated.

      4. From 1999 to 2007, SNP MSPs were mostly people with real-life baggage with them. In other words, they had earned a living and inhabited the outside world, free from immersion within the political bubble. Salmond did the right thing in 2007 in assembling a pretty competent government who didn’t make too many mistakes. The message was minority, but competent government. Sturgeon was one of the few who didn’t have much experience after she qualified as a solicitor – and a chequered short career it was too. Our circumstances changes in 2011 when in the Scottish Election we were able to “game the electoral system”, winning 69 seats out of 129 (53% of the total) with only 46% of the vote. (Labour choose the wrong “game” by concentrating on constituencies with no dual nominations to constituency and region.)

      5. We lost the Independence Referendum in 2014 by 55.3% to 44.7%, a huge margin of 10.6%. In my opinion, Salmond was wrong to resign – stupidly he thought he could still control Sturgeon who was “crowned” with his blessing. Big mistake. The MSP 2011 input had produced a cohort who often thought, largely, that they could rule the world but they had little experience of the actual world outside politics. Few had earned a living in trade, business and the professions. The result has been growing governmental incompetence ever since.

      6. Nevertheless, the Government and many MSPs were easy meat for Wokish lobby groups, either due to: their own orientation, being flattered by attention, seeking an easy, cumfy life, or occasionally thinking they were doing good. Also, the Party has been completely corrupted internally, starting in 2017 with the abolition of National Council and the reduction of ordinary member representation and the proliferation of overlapping special interest groups on the NEC. Now NEC controls everything, including direct candidate selection, through the Murrells, Angus Robertson (predictably), Michael Russell (sadly) and several others in the Nicola band of acolytes. Conferences for many years are just Nicola fan-club rallies.

      7. There will be no indyref2 next year and Sturgeon and her coterie will play us for sheepish fools until the Party collapses or they leave at their own choice.

      This is the story of many organisations, not just political parties. A complete change, either internally generated, or forced upon it, will be required to reverse out this nasty cul-de-sac.

    38. Ian Brotherhood says:

      @John Main –

      Alice Cooper has stood for the US presidency at every opportunity since the mid-70s or something. Hunter S Thomson did likewise. Both well-kent faces with plenty of fans but I don’t recall seeing either of them in any televised debates.

      Do you?

      (Perhaps they didn’t get support from major business interests, the ‘defence’ and pharmaceutical giants.)

    39. Southernbystander says:

      Re the ferries fiasco – Ian Brotherhood, there is this on the BBC website which has some cursory analysis:

      https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-scotland-politics-63498082

    40. George Ferguson says:

      @John Main 8:36pm
      Fair enough but some of us see our legacy from a different perspective. I have always viewed my legacy from the standpoint of my children and grandchildren. So in that sense I will live for a long time. Not just by a DNA signature but their memories of me. I thought of standing for office but my wife said I was too honest. (And she is my biggest critic). A sad reflection of the state of politics. Nicola will be known as a baby box leader that diminished public services and was the most divisive leader in the short history of Holyrood. Not a legacy I would be proud of. Stu on the other hand should have his articles saved on a Natiobal database. His legacy.

    41. Chas says:

      John Main

      But, but, the BPHB have tartan blood coursing through there veins. Surely that is enough? Would you consider voting for the likes of RoS, Che or Shateuy? Would anybody?
      Far better for them to pontificate from the side lines boring the sane amongst to death about their favourite subjects that no one takes seriously.

    42. Ian Brotherhood says:

      @George Ferguson (9.31) –

      But oor ain wee Nicola saw off, what is it, three, four Prime Ministers?

      Are our bards not composing epic songs about her?

      And if not, why not?

    43. George Ferguson says:

      @Ian Brotherhood 9:50pm
      They saw themselves off with falsehoods and plain daft policies. A golden opportunity wasted. I think we have to wait a long time on the bards singing about Nicola. Unless it’s about the destruction of our public services.

    44. Brian Doonthetoon says:

      Hi William G Walker at 8:44 pm.

      You typed a long comment (which I read).

      “HOW DID THE SNP END UP IN THIS GROTESQUE CUL-de-SAC?”

      A decent summary of our situation. When does the Scottish uprising/revolution happen?

    45. David Lyon says:

      Was the Green deal not tabled as a panicked response to the prospect of several SNP MSPs crossing the floor to join Alba?

      Is it not now simply a convenient alliance that doesn’t need to exist, but serves the ego of both sides and keeps the T voters happy?

    46. Shaking My Head says:

      ‘Ian Brotherhood says:
      4 November, 2022 at 8:49 pm
      @John Main –

      Alice Cooper has stood for the US presidency at every opportunity since the mid-70s or something. Hunter S Thomson did likewise.’

      Hunter S Thompson never ran for president. He ran for sheriff of Aspen, Colorado. And lost.

    47. Tinto Chiel says:

      @Lorna Campbell 5.22: bluntly put but right enough. I can’t understand any real feminist empowering these creepy men, and yet many seem to wish them well, in the belief that they are being kind or understanding to them. I’ve heard a statistic that only about 5% of those self-IDing as trans women have actually gone through the full chemical/surgical procedure to “womanhood”. Do you have any idea if this is so?

      I wish I could remember the name of the female prison governor who resigned over this issue, following rapes of women by so-called “trans women” in prison.

      We’re in a madhouse here, an unscientific, believe-what-you-want-to believe madhouse where the cultish mindset laid out by Vivian O’Blivion @1.37 is becoming increasingly persuasive as an explanation.

    48. Ian Brotherhood says:

      Here’s one for Ellis, Main and others who have been lambasting people as ‘covidiots’ for the past two years.

      Looking forward to your response.

      https://www.theatlantic.com/ideas/archive/2022/10/covid-response-forgiveness/671879/

    49. LESLIE HALLS says:

      Look no further than The Salmond Enquiry. How would you ensure that the commission will see things your way? And what price would you be prepared to pay?

    50. John Main says:

      @IB 11:22

      I haven’t lambasted anybody as a covidiot.

      £50 to the charity of your choice if you can link to a post from me that proves me wrong.

      Looking forwards to your apology.

      Haha, it’s always good to laugh.

    51. Derek says:

      “Shaking My Head says:
      4 November, 2022 at 10:19 pm

      ‘Ian Brotherhood says:
      4 November, 2022 at 8:49 pm
      @John Main –

      Alice Cooper has stood for the US presidency at every opportunity since the mid-70s or something. Hunter S Thomson did likewise.’

      Hunter S Thompson never ran for president. He ran for sheriff of Aspen, Colorado. And lost.”

      See also Kinky Friedman; stood for governor of Texas, at least.

    52. Ian Brotherhood says:

      @John Main –

      I won’t go trawling for ‘proof’ at your behest.

      You know what you’ve done, and so does Ellis.

      If you’d care to address the article, then I’ll listen to your comments.

      But if you have nothing to offer then you would do well to reflect on your role in what’s happened and consider observing a period of silence.

    53. Hatuey says:

      The article seems quite conciliatory to me, Ian, not what I expected. The emphasis is on putting the mistakes and bad decisions made behind us.

      I disagree with that since the bad decisions are ongoing. Non-covid excess deaths in the UK and elsewhere remain disturbingly high. Another “vaccine” rollout is underway. It’s Russian roulette at the population level.

      The MSM, social media companies, and political class, are deplatforming anyone that deviates from the official narrative.

      Something like 95% of those who died with covid during the pandemic were over 75 years old. From memory, the average age was 82, higher than average life expectancy.

      But the excess deaths we are seeing right now are distributed across all age groups. That statistic alone should ring alarm bells everywhere.

      Those who call people “covidiots” might want to try explaining that.

    54. Alf Baird says:

      Hatuey @ 4:42 pm

      “I haven’t looked at the detail of the ferries fiasco”

      Nobody has looked close enough, really, or in the right places. Not even the BBC in its recent analysis. Audit Scotland remains wide of the mark. As are Holyrood committees, partly because they never appoint a ‘specialist advisor’, someone who knows about the global ferry business. Derek Mackay is merely a convenient fall guy, and the real story has still to be told. Meantime more problems are in the pipeline as the same ‘actors’ continue to order very expensive boats, as before. Even the FM is clueless, much as she is on independence. If she can’t even deliver a single ferry we should not expect her to be able to deliver independence. That’s what you get if you employ the wrong sort of people.

    55. Lothianlad says:

      The brit secret service is holding the snp sg in the palm of their hands.

    56. William Russell says:

      I thought at the time it was to deter defections to Alba. Any SNP MSP who thought they could wield power by defecting to an indy party prior to the SNP/Green deal may have been deterred.
      As to why the deal was so loaded toward the Greens? The deal is 100% for the SNP and I suppose the Greens were simply asked to name their price and deal done.

    57. steph says:

      We may be giving too much credit here. It could as well have been done as a simple marketing exercise.

      The SNP: the Party of Independence.
      The Greens: the Other Party of Independence.

      A nicely tied up collection of people with priorities other than Independence, in other words, but covering all the brand bases for the consumers. Aldi and Lidl versions are available of course, but, you know, they’re for the poors.

      If you’re reading, MSPs, I hope there’s another silent coup in progress. Don’t let her keep going till there’s nothing left.

    58. Shaking My Head says:

      I personally find Nicola Sturgeon to be an inspiration. Her mother gets up the kite at 17, and her parents have a shotgun wedding in December 1969. Out pops their first-born seven months later, growing up in a no-horse tiny village to become an angry, manhating, narcissistic, dictatorial, country-trashing, constant-attention-seeking ideological extremist, with an attention-seeking bizarre ‘psychic’ Tarot card-reading sister who is either mentally unbalanced, or a conwoman, or both.

      Why does the word ‘trash’ come to mind?

    59. Breeks says:


      Alf Baird says:
      5 November, 2022 at 12:55 am
      Hatuey @ 4:42 pm

      “I haven’t looked at the detail of the ferries fiasco”

      Nobody has looked close enough, really, or in the right places. Not even the BBC in its recent analysis. Audit Scotland remains wide of the mark…

      Agreed 100%.

      Whether it’s the process that’s flawed having an “inquiry” which is essentially amateur politicians interrogating amateur Ministers, where the only “professionalism” is they are paid to do it, or whether the system itself is sound but manned by incompetents.

      In all these matters of “Governmental” incompetence, I think there is a constant issue with Scotland not having it’s own Civil Service loyal to Scotland, nor indeed a Home Security Agency acting as watchdog against corruption.

      I suspect the truth lies somewhere in between.

      The third flaw in the system is the absence of accountability since there is no codified process of impeachment.

      I noted Craig Hoy’s unsubtle attempts have Sturgeon say the words she accepts responsibility personally for the fiasco, and Sturgeon’s even less subtle attempt to shirk any blame; she’s only responsible because she’s presiding over the debacle, not causing it.

      That’s really not good enough to be trusting the conscience and integrity of rogues to do the right thing. We need an impeachment protocol to compel them and if necessary remove them from office.

      Sadly, it’s just more evidence Holyrood is a half baked and ineptly set up Institution, with other gaping holes in it’s political infrastructure besides the Constitutional shambles. It’s parish council skullduggery and amateurish oneupmanship masquerading as Government.

      Scotland needs the real thing. A proper professional Government answerable to the Scottish people… and I mean answerable, and underpinned by a competent and surefooted Scottish Civil Service which swears it’s own fealty to the sovereign people.

    60. panda paws says:

      “I wish I could remember the name of the female prison governor who resigned over this issue”

      Rhona Hotchkiss officially retired as prison governor but resigned from the SNP on the issue.

      And yes 90-95% of transwomen have a penis though they may be taking cross sex hormones.

    61. Cath says:

      As with so many things, like the Salmond stitch up, hatred of other pro Indy parties, hatred of pro Indy blogs and media, hatred of Commomweal and anyone with decent strategy and planning for independence skills, eg Tim Rideout, Andy Whiteman, Joanna Cherry, Alf Baird etc, you can go round in circles asking “Why?” But the only logical explanation it keeps coming back to is – because their sole goal (SNP and Green leaderships) is to frustrate independence, damage the movement and destroy support for both independence and Holyrood.

    62. Tinto Chiel says:

      @panda paws 7.50: thanks for the clarification.

    63. Robert Hughes says:

      Ian B . In the interest of that much maligned concept – fact , John Main was on the side of the – equally maligned * covidiots * , didn’t succumb to the deliberately orchestrated hysteria and displayed an admirable ability to think for himself . Which makes his UNCRITICAL acceptance of the U v R narrative all the more baffling . Ah well , so it goes .

      Hatuey ; I agree with yr comments on that article ( which I read the other day ) . It’s far too conciliatory , it’s NOT time to * move on * , not – as you say – when the real Covidiots are still at large , pushing their utterly useless chemical experiments and while the alarming rates of – all age – excess deaths are being studiously/shamelessly ignored .

      Lastly …..I forced myself to watch that clip of the increasingly demented looking ( and acting ) Sturgeon wriggling like the proverbial worm on a hook , the lies and evasions tripping over themselves in a frantic display of buck-passing . Her demeanour one of ” how dare a man question me ” , her boredom with anything to do with Scotland palpable .

      It gets harder and harder to believe her capacity to remain unscathed from one fuck-up to the next is not due to her having some kind of protection . Any journalist worthy of the name could bring her down .

      If what we see on the surface is bad – what we’re allowed to see , imagine what we can’t see , what’s been going on below the surface , ” behind closed doors ” . It will all come out eventually , I’m sure ; no doubt at a time of the Brit State’s choosing and when it can do maximum damage .

    64. Andy Ellis says:

      @Brotherhood

      Here’s one for Ellis, Main and others who have been lambasting people as ‘covidiots’ for the past two years.

      Looking forward to your response.

      It’s behind a paywall. There’s a difference between disagreeing with aspects of how the pandemic was handled, the impact on society as a whole, and whether (for example) it was worth vaccinating children, and pandering to covidiots advocating a-scientific conspiracy theory woo-woo.

      yw/hth

    65. Hatuey says:

      These types laugh at people who care about things. They think caring for anything is stupid. They get a sort of perverted kick out of tricking people and pretending they also care, and they toast their antics afterwards like the real estate salesmen in Glengarry Glen Ross. This is basically what they teach kids in public schools.

      They attack and approach everything from a sociopathic nihilist position. The only question that’s rational in their minds, the only concern that’s valid, is what’s in it for me?

      Their souls end up so poisoned that anyone or anything that represents hope, truth, justice, or anything positive whatsoever, is perceived as a threat to them, despised, and viciously attacked. On a certain level that’s logical of them, because genuinely good people make them look really bad and they don’t want to face their own ugliness.

      There’s a few of those types on here that many of you will be familiar with — no need to name names. They shoot down everything that’s positive and constructive, and only show genuine enthusiasm and compassion for things like war, misery, belittling people, etc.

      But their biggest victims are themselves. Their own belief system destroys and corrupts them, leaving them barren and utterly hopeless, going through the motions of a pointless life in a world which has no meaning.

      “The hopeless don’t revolt because revolution is an act of hope…” (Kropotkin)

      (Yes, I know, one of them will be along soon to punish me for all this. So it goes.)

    66. Andy Ellis says:

      (Yes, I know, one of them will be along soon to punish me for all this. So it goes.)

      Ignorance is its own punishment Hatuey. T-Day minus 50.

    67. Ottomanboi says:

      If the SNP gov cannot profit by the current state of Ukania politics it never will.
      Infiltration, lack of political will/intelligence/imagination, fear or just a collection of third raters manifesting all of the forementioned.
      In a world where the west’s chief leading power is headed by a gaga geriatric truly the global political class is a spent product.
      Enjoy the delights of Sharm, aka City of Peace, you poseurs.
      Don’t touch the prawns cocktail!
      Nahaarkum sa’iid.

    68. Hatuey says:

      I read you, kid… so not that ignorant, eh?

      Anyway, fun as this is, my accountant awaits me.

    69. Robert Hughes says:

      Ottomanboi says:
      5 November, 2022 at 9:10 am

      ” If the SNP gov cannot profit by the current state of Ukania politics it never will.”

      The only way it can do so , Otto , is by creating the illusion that it is – somehow – * better * than the aforementioned ( disgraceful ) state of Ukania politics . Fckn hell ! Yr archetypal 3rd World Banana Republic could appear the apogee of rational governance by comparison .

      That it is – in actuality – NOT in any meaningful way profiting ( ie significantly advancing support for Independence ) from the succession of evermore deranged English Tory * lead singers * tells us all we need to know about the hopelessness of Nu SNP .

      The thing is , some of us were saying a while back it was likely the Tories would eventually – after dismal May/hap , sick Joke Johnson and ridiculous Truss , come-up with a leader with a soupcon more credibility . In Sunak they have done so . HE might not provide such an easy target . Even if he does , we can be fairly sure the SNP Freak Show will still miss .

      Hatuey @ 8.44 . Excellent post compadre 🙂

    70. Scott says:

      People who attended fee-paying schools turn out to be cycloptic wankers because their parents are lazy, child-abusing cunts that whored out their parental responsibilities.

    71. Ross says:

      I suspect it’s to demonstrate the pro-indy majority in less nuanced terms to the wider UK press, elecorate and govt.

      Although I don’t think it makes a difference substantial enough to negate the disadvantages. The Greens now have a very easy means to make headlines when they “walk away” which they will use are some point.

      Slater and Harvie have been very quiet recently. Slater non-existent. I don’t have twitter so maybe they’re active on that but to the likes of me they’ve been very quiet indeed in MSM. Maybe that’s a benefit. Stymied by crumbs of power possibly.

    72. Ross says:

      @shaking head

      The only trash I see about here are your creepy, classless posts.

      Like her or not, Sturgeon is a very articulate operator. Going after people’s family is just trashy. All families have their issues and embarrassments. Without knowing you from Adam, I’m sure yours will too. It means bugger all about you as an individual.

    73. Alf Baird says:

      Cath @ 7:59 am

      “the only logical explanation it keeps coming back to is – because their sole goal (SNP and Green leaderships) is to frustrate independence, damage the movement and destroy support for both independence and Holyrood”

      I’m afraid that’s all we can ever expect wi a hauf-wey hoose colonial administration and its hunners o institutions still run by those with allegiance to the imperial (Crown) power.

      Tho hits nivver sae easy tae ser twa maisters (twa soveranty’s), as we can see on the SNP elites faces and in their deceitfu actions and words – thay appen thair mou’s an deceit fa’s oot.

    74. Ian Brotherhood says:

      Ellis, at 8.40, claims that The Atlantic article I posted last night is behind a paywall.

      It isn’t.

      The fact that he doesn’t want to address it shouldn’t put off others from reading it. Not a pleasant read (for all sorts of reasons) but important all the same.

      https://www.theatlantic.com/ideas/archive/2022/10/covid-response-forgiveness/671879/

    75. John Main says:

      @Ian Brotherhood 11:50

      A sparkling wee gem of a post, Ian.

      In the course of an hour, we had:

      Ian: “See you, John, you ca’ed people Covidiots, so ye did”

      John: “Naw ah did nae. Tell ye fit, prove it if ye can”

      Ian: “Ah dinna hae tae prove it. Ah ken fit ye did. Noo fuck aff”

      Exactly the “logic” and method used to bring AS low. The accusation, followed up by the doubling down when the accusation goes unproven. Maybes Ian has posted plenty on here about that outrage against natural justice, maybes not.

      You’ve just been fast tracked for membership of the nutters group on Wings BTL, Ian. No need to be shy, you’re a natural.

    76. Ross says:

      @Ian I’ve read the article. Maybe I’ve missed the original argument but it seems pretty self evident that society and politicians made some mistakes in the pandemic. Is that being disputed?

      I think the main issue highlighted is the decline in measels vaccine uptake in the US because of idiots misinforming people and politicising vaccines. The author appears to want to wash responsibility away from those responsible in an effort to move on. Probably a little disingenuous as I suspect from the tone, she might have been one of them. That said I think most people have moved on. I don’t know anyone rehashing these arguments in the here and now.

    77. John Main says:

      @Hats 12:39

      I recall your post where you asserted that the unvaxxed should fuck off and die.

      There was another one where you called for the righteously vaxxed to shun the unclean unvaxxed.

      You might want to try explaining that.

    78. PacMan says:

      Maybe the coalition with the Greens is simply egotism on Sturgeons part.

      While the Green party has been involved in governments of other countries, they haven’t had any significant power in Westminster or the devolved administrations. Allowing them to share power at Holyrood is as a first in British politics that Sturgeon can claim.

      She also want to amplify her green credentials so what better way than to form a coalition with the Green party.

      Pure speculation on my part but as the Rev’s article, there is no logic to the coalition so any speculation about it is valid.

    79. Ian Brotherhood says:

      @John Main –

      If I’ve mistakenly paired you with Ellis then I apologise.

      Perhaps I should’ve fingered Hatuey instead?

      In any case, I can’t speak for anyone else but the whole ‘pandemic amnesty’ idea shouldn’t be considered until there is agreement on what actually happened.

      Just yesterday I got the big blue envelope landing on the carpet, from where it went straight into the bin. It would’ve been for the covid/flu shot because I’m over 50. I’m not getting it. How many others will refuse and leave themselves vulnerable to the amazing flu which inexplicably disappeared these two winters past?

      I’m all for truth and reconciliation but they have to be ‘done’ in that order.

    80. Rab Davis says:

      Main/Ellis

      You are an English Wanker.

      Fuck off!!!

    81. Scott says:

      PacMan says:
      5 November, 2022 at 10:47 am

      Maybe the coalition with the Greens is simply egotism on Sturgeons part.

      Pure speculation on my part but as the Rev’s article, there is no logic to the coalition so any speculation about it is valid.

      We DON’T ELECT the Government or the First Minister.

      ‘First Past The Post’ is how WM works, not Holyrood.

      Most seats DOES NOT EQUATE to PARTY OF GOVERNMENT.

      FM does NOT LEAD THE PARTY OF GOVERNMENT, ONLY THE SCOTTISH MINISTERS, notwithstanding internal party rules.

      FM can offer ANY MEMBER, from ANY PARTY, a CABINET POSITION.

      There’s the logic.

      yw,hth

    82. John Main says:

      @Robert Hughes 9:42

      There is something admirable about people who will put their very lives on the line for their country, their freedom, their culture, etc etc.

      There is something a bit “off” about people who will post anonymously and endlessly on websites about their country, their freedom, their culture, etc etc, and in between times exult at the possibility that the former group may soon be killed, exiled or enslaved.

      It’s a scathing indictment of the latter group that I need to even post this at all.

      Wings BTL had the chance to show in February 2022 that it was on the side of the angels, warty angels as they undoubtedly are, but still of the two protagonists, the side being subjected to murderous aggression. The side that stands to lose everything that Wings BTL claims to believe in.

      A substantial chunk of Wings BTL blew that chance.

    83. Rab Davis says:

      I bet all you Scottish historians could never have predicted that a wee 5Ft high lesbian from Ayrshire would end up with more power of the Scottish people than Robert the Bruce.

      She conned the lot of us,,,not just Alex Salmond.

    84. Republicofscotland says:

      Sturgeon the betrayer repeating her performance at the Ferry scandal inquiry, in a similar fashion as to her performance at the Alex Salmond inquiry, and we are none the wiser for it.

      https://twitter.com/Grouse_Beater

      My favourite question to the betrayer is “When you attended the fake ferry launch” Brilliant.

    85. John Main says:

      Ian Brotherhood

      Apology accepted.

      I would advise that you rethink the flu jab offer. The letter is probably for both jabs, flu and Covid, but when you turn up on the day, you can tell them if you only want one, and which one you want.

      There is some concern that people’s natural resistance to flu may have declined because of lack of exposure to it, which is why there are predictions of a bad “flu season” ahead.

      Anyways, I am getting my flu jab. Having had both Covid and flu (at different times), I will take Covid over flu any day.

    86. Ian Brotherhood says:

      @John Main (11.11) –

      The point I’m making is that the trust has gone.

      I don’t trust them to offer that choice. The toxic shite could be in both. There have been many ‘mistakes’, as well as folk who are in no position to make an informed choice being given the fuckin thing whether they like it or not.

      Many people like Revels, but not the coffee ones. They look just the same as the orange ones but no one can tell for sure. That’s what makes them ‘exciting’ and sets them apart from other sweeties.

      Jags aren’t sweeties, no matter how hard they dress them up to be.

    87. Ian Brotherhood says:

      Another wee snippet from ferries inquiry where she avoids the question.

      Does anyone know offhand how many times she’s broken the ministerial code? Have we hit double figures yet? If not we can’t be far off it, and each one is a resigning matter.

      https://twitter.com/SandPatterson/status/1588610754722217984

    88. Andy Ellis says:

      @Hatuey

      Since you’re waxing lyrical, let’s try and deconstruct your tendentious virtue signalling nonsense, shall we…?

      Their souls end up so poisoned that anyone or anything that represents hope, truth, justice, or anything positive whatsoever, is perceived as a threat to them, despised, and viciously attacked. On a certain level that’s logical of them, because genuinely good people make them look really bad and they don’t want to face their own ugliness.

      The idea that the ramshackle collective of personality disorders, fringe nutters and abusive trolls represented by the moonhowlers and BPHB in here are representative of “genuinely good people” and that those disagreeing with them, and often being abused for it, represent the ugly side of the debate will be treated with the derision it deserves by any reasonable observer.

      They attack and approach everything from a sociopathic nihilist position. The only question that’s rational in their minds, the only concern that’s valid, is what’s in it for me?

      I’m not sure labelling those who disagree with the woo-woo fringe views of the usual suspects in here makes one a sociopathic nihilist. It’s hardly an exceptional view that many people who are not (presently) convinced of the case for Scottish independence, might be more amenable to it if they were convinced it would make them better off, or at least no worse off, than staying in the union.

      Of course, many of us who are already convinced of the merits of independence would vote for it even if meant being personally worse off: we’re already convinced that the benefits outweigh the risks, and that we’re more likely to be able to construct the kind of society we want by being independent.

      The prospect of convincing undecided Scots by describing them as sociopathic nihilists because they ask for some evidence they won’t be worse off tends to support the charge that you and the handful of other regulars who soil the BTL discourse on here who share your worldview are indeed moonhowlers.

      They shoot down everything that’s positive and constructive, and only show genuine enthusiasm and compassion for things like war, misery, belittling people, etc.

      Again, you trying to wrap yourself in the flag of “everything positive and constructive” will strike many as a very brave assertion. There’s nothing positive and constructive about those pushing shameful nativism and anti-immigrant sentiment for example. They’re the opposite of the progressive, social democratic, inclusive better nation we should all be supporting. Similarly, there’s nothing positive and constructive about telling the people of 404 they “had it coming”, or being an apologist for Vlad because *Great Satan*.

      Those opposing such fringe nutterdom aren’t showing “enthusiasm and compassion for things like war, misery and belittling people” (which is a charge that may have made sense in your head, but just sounds deranged when written down).

      Many perfectly reasonable people in Scotland, both pro and anti independence probably share many of the positions on particular issues as you and some of the usual suspects, whether on GRA/TWAW, on Palestine, on climate change, on the need for more radical policies to address inequality.

      The fact they disagree with you and others on different issues is just part of life’s rich tapestry. The plain fact is it triggers a lot of people on here when people have the effrontery to disagree with them, and since a handful of them lack the will or ability to argue in good faith, they resort to othering those who disagree with them.

      We’re all [delete as appropriate] tractors*, yoon stooges, not real independence supporters, Sturgeonites, English, 77th Brigade or whatever their hobby horse du jour is. Alternatively they just resort to vulgar abuse and cunt calling because that’s all they’re really capable of.

      …..leaving them barren and utterly hopeless, going through the motions of a pointless life in a world which has no meaning…

      Aw mate, you’re mouth is writing cheques your brain can’t cash again. Our belief system is that of the overwhelming majority, however inchoately your screech otherwise. You and your wee posse in here are the movement’s intellectual equivalent of the Wolfie Smith and the Tooting Popular Front, with about as much support and less ideological coherence.

    89. Andy Ellis says:

      @Brotherhood 10.20 am

      Ellis, at 8.40, claims that The Atlantic article I posted last night is behind a paywall.

      It isn’t.

      The fact that he doesn’t want to address it shouldn’t put off others from reading it. Not a pleasant read (for all sorts of reasons) but important all the same.

      It is if you’ve already read a couple of Atlantic articles in any given period. You only get to access a few before you have to subscribe.

      If you lack the wit to precis the arguments, or make your own on a basis more convincing than you’ve managed to date, it’s a matter for you. Covidiots gonna covidiot right enough…… same old same old.

      It’s no different from those who insisted the MMR vaccine caused autism. There’s always a leavening of fruitloops who find the shiny conspiracy theory – however outlandish – more attractive than the quotidian reality backed by science.

    90. Andy Ellis says:

      @John Main 11.01 am

      Wings BTL had the chance to show in February 2022 that it was on the side of the angels, warty angels as they undoubtedly are, but still of the two protagonists, the side being subjected to murderous aggression. The side that stands to lose everything that Wings BTL claims to believe in.

      A substantial chunk of Wings BTL blew that chance.

      Hear, hear! Another issue – much like nativism – that has served to separate the goats from the sheep in this place. There is a nasty, authoritarian, regressive streak running through these folk like letters through Blackpool rock.

      It’s passing strange to me that so many – even if they are a relatively small percentage – are content to write off the people of 404, and even the very existence of their state, on the implausible basis that Vlad’s agitprop about “the Great Satan” outweighs the right of the people of 404 to exercise their self determination as they see fit.

      I doubt most of them would accept the pre-conditions being expected of the people of 404 from the UK in the event of Scotland’s independence. Are we in London’s backyard and sphere of influence and therefore dependant on their agreement before we can join the EU or NATO I wonder? Are we obliged to accept them carving off bits of Dumfries and Galloway and the Borders for Scottish unionists?

    91. Scott says:

      Andy Ellis says:
      5 November, 2022 at 1:33 pm

      It’s no different from those who insisted the MMR vaccine caused autism. There’s always a leavening of fruitloops who find the shiny conspiracy theory – however outlandish – more attractive

      Dear Wendy Ellis,

      Do you think Monica Coghlan believed in a) coincidences, b) conspiracy theories, c) both a & b.

      Yours,

      “Scott”

    92. Robert Hughes says:

      ” Wings BTL had the chance to show in February 2022 that it was on the side of the angels, warty angels as they undoubtedly are, but still of the two protagonists, the side being subjected to murderous aggression. The side that stands to lose everything that Wings BTL claims to believe in.”

      That all sounds very * fair * if you’re prepared to ignore ALL THE OTHER FACTORS involved in this latest instance of man’s unfathomable stupidity to man .

      I’ve no intention of rehashing all those arguments again . You’re smart enough to know what they are : that you insist on this simpleton’s version of the situation is your choice . suffice to say ……

      R was baited and provoked by the lunatics , the sole beneficiaries of this conflict – M.I.C . That it took the bait * may * be a fundamental error on R’s part , though , frankly , it’s difficult to see what choice it had . Let * NATO * / U.S continue to provocatively push right up to it’s border ; do you think for a second the U.S would allow such a thing ?

      I won’t be continuing this debate . It’s been covered here extensively ; no minds have been changed and – as ever , time will tell whose perception proves most accurate

    93. Andy Ellis says:

      @”Scott”

      Dear Wendy Ellis,

      Do you think Monica Coghlan believed in a) coincidences, b) conspiracy theories, c) both a & b.

      Yours,

      “Scott”

      I’ve no idea what Coghlan believed in, or its relevance.

      When you come within a parsec of a point though, get back to us.

    94. John Cowie says:

      Hi.
      First time commentating as it drives me round the bend that people can’t see that this repellent Gender ideology is being deliberately used to divide, discredit, distract & distress the previously united & strong independence movement when it is WAS on the verge of reaching its goal.

      Like the Labour Files exposed in the Labour Party, “transphobia” = “anti-semitism”; a method to divide, attack & remove party stalwarts.

      The evil of Sturgeon & Swinney etc is that they are willing to use as political pawns the most vulnerable in this deliberate strategy of divide, discredit & distract:

      Women in prisons
      Women in rape crisis refuges
      Women in changing facilities
      School children & hideous “education”

      WHY is really not hard to understand.

    95. Hatuey says:

      Ian brotherhood: “Perhaps I should’ve fingered Hatuey instead?”

      I am compelled to suggest that “fingering” yourself might be a more satisfying and fruitful undertaking.

      Nobody outside of big pharma came out of the covid years victorious — certainly not those who recklessly advised people against taking medication that all the science and experts told us would potentially save their lives.

    96. Andy Ellis says:

      Ian brotherhood: “Perhaps I should’ve fingered Hatuey instead?”

      I am compelled to suggest that “fingering” yourself might be a more satisfying and fruitful undertaking.

      It would also explain a lot. Ian exemplifies what the words of the wonderful Karine Polwart in her song Skater on the Surface:

      And if it’s true that ignorance is bliss. Then you must be coming all the time. 🙂

    97. Scott says:

      “Ian exemplifies what the words of the wonderful Karine Polwart in her song Skater on the Surface:” – Wendy Ellis

      And Ellis exemplifies what a child-like cunt looks like.

    98. John Main says:

      A Brief History Of Covid

      Stay Home & Isolate:

      Haud oan, this is MY health we’re talking about. MY health depends on outdoor exercise, good diet, regular social and personal interactions, financial stability brought about by ME going out to graft. MY health is not the gift of the state which can be withdrawn on decree.

      Wear A Mask:

      Haud oan, all the studies show mask wearing is just theatre outside of controlled environments. But if YOU truly believe YOUR mask protects YOU, then fill your boots. Whether or not I wear a mask is MY business.

      Get Vaxxed:

      Haud oan, the long term side effects cannot be known, let alone the long term side effects of regular vaxxing til the ends of our lives. But if YOU truly believe YOUR vax protects YOU, then fill your boots. Whether or not I get vaxxed is MY business.

      Protect The NHS:

      Haud oan, I thought the NHS was there to protect me. Most of an entire lifetime of paying for the NHS, taking responsibility for myself, believing that the NHS will be there as a last resort, and now you tell me it has shut up shop.

      Cancer Rates, Heart Disease Rates, Waiting Lists, Ambulance Response Times Through The Roof:

      Haud oan, much against my better judgement, I did everything you asked. I stayed home, I masked and vaxxed, I lost my job, destroyed my retirement plans, missed family and friend’s life changing events, adversely affected my own wellbeing, and now you tell me that after all of that, the NHS is unlikely to ever recover. The safety net I have been subbing my entire working life may not be there when I need it.

      SNHS Staff Planning To Strike:

      Thanks guys and gals. “ScotGov failing to dig deep enough”. That’ll be me then, cos ultimately ScotGov has no money of its own. It only has what it can extract from me and the rest of us Scots. No point ME saying that if YOU think the SNHS needs more, YOU chip in. Tax extraction is not democratic.

      Lessons Have Been Learned – Time To Move On:

      Yeah, soz. My bad. Whatever was I thinking about? [laughs, shrugs, gets into car and drives off to work – that tax bill won’t pay itself]

    99. Breastplate says:

      IanB,
      John Main was never an advocate of the restrictions imposed on us by our government regarding covid and his position was more in line with yours.

      Hatuey, to his credit, was willing to debate certain aspects of why people should or shouldn’t get the jab and understood that there was a risk v reward aspect in operation to the extent he didn’t believe children should be getting it.

      Andy Ellis, on the other hand, was a full throttle bat shit crazy zealot regarding enforcement of the government narrative to the extent that he was willing to help create a vaccine passport apartheid and punish people to the full extent of laws that would be created to specifically fabricate an Untermensch in our society.
      He thought/thinks that not being fully vaccinated is the same as drink driving.

      I’m happy to be corrected if I have misrepresented any of the above, I’m working from memory and previous interactions.

    100. Hatuey says:

      Interesting and timely, John Main, that you reference the “unknown” long-term side effects of the covid vaccine. Yet earlier in the week you said you’d be rolling up for the flu jab — your reasoning wasn’t exactly clear on this.

      The truth is the flu jab may do more harm than good, in both the short and long term. I could point you to studies that suggest they confer negative immunity through what used to be called ‘antibody interference’, with efficacy recorded below -30% (below minus 30%).

      In that case, the flu jab would make you more likely to catch the flu; and in some case with some variants, the flu is as likely to be as harmful to health as certain covid strains.

      It’s complicated, isn’t it… very, very complicated.

    101. Hatuey says:

      Your memory is good, breastplate. When government agencies were advising that children be vaccinated, I said the data didn’t support it. It didn’t.

      And that was before we found out they lied and cheated on the data and science which was the basis for the rest of being vaccinated, and before we found out at least some of the truth about side effects…

      I’m disgusted at all this. We’ve all been lied to by people, organisations, and authorities that we thought we could trust.

    102. Scott says:

      “We’ve all been lied to by people, organisations, and authorities that we thought we could trust.” – Hatuey

      Fuck off, ya crank. You were ‘othering, with malice aforethought’ those pointing out the flaws in the logic that was being punted by those YOU thought YOU could trust.

      Again, fuck off.

    103. Breastplate says:

      Scott,
      I think Hatuey has already conceded that he was wrong in regards trusting untrustworthy sources. It’s an easy trap to fall into, I’m sure we’ve all fallen into it at some time or other, it’s very difficult if not impossible to be on guard every minute of every day.

      We’re all being manipulated all of the time.

    104. John Main says:

      One reason I trust the flu vaccines more than the Covid ones is that the flu vaccines are “old” technology, i.e tried and tested, and specifically lacking the mRNA technology that was fast-tracked into universal use during Covid.

      I now discover that mRNA flu vaccines are being trialled in the USA. No doubt they will be here soon. That might well affect how I personally view the flu vaccine in the coming years.

      The risks of catching Covid or flu continue to increase with age. At some age (probably different ages for each disease) the risk from the disease will so exceed the vaccine risk that people would be daft not to get vaxxed.

      Just as the difference between age and life expectancy will inevitably decrease until there is no time left for long-term side effects to be a concern.

      None of this is new BTW. It was always true even during the height of the coercive Covid vaxxination campaigns.

    105. Hatuey says:

      Scott: “You were ‘othering, with malice aforethought’ those pointing out the flaws in the logic that was being punted by those YOU thought YOU could trust.”

      So, you don’t trust doctors, health professionals, health planners, nurses, GPs, Government Health managers, public health experts, and a bunch of other people that we rely on every day for basic health care. All of them, somewhere in the region of 99.9999%, were all advising us to get vaccinated, that it could save our lives.

      I trusted them over the unfounded, unscientific, non-expert advice of people who were called anti-vaxxers. At the time, given that virtually the whole medico-health community was telling us vaccines were safe, a community that most of us trust(ed) unreservedly on a regular basis, I considered it was reckless to encourage people not to get vaccinated.

      So, yes, guilty… of trusting people that we all thought we could trust. And guilty again… of opposing the reckless advice of people online who demonstrated no scientific understanding or reasonable grounds for their protestations.

      Straight to hell I go, but with over 90% of the UK population vaccinated, I’ll not be short of company when I get there.

    106. Hatuey says:

      John Main, your definition of “old” technology isn’t clear to me but it doesn’t matter — what matters is health outcomes. Flu is deadly to a lot of people, of course. Like I said, back in 2015/16, it was reported that flu vaccines were causing negative immunity outcomes, effectively making people more likely to catch it.

      They seem to be learning a lot about the immune system right now and it seems to be a lot more complicated than anybody thought.

      One thing they’ve found is that flu strains that are similar cause a lot of problems for the immune system — it primes itself for the previous strain when you vaccinate for the new strain, leaving people more vulnerable than they would have been otherwise (unvaccinated).

      It’s way above my pay grade but it looks like natural immunity is the best and more emphasis should be put on bolstering the performance of the immune system with vitamins D, K, C, Zinc, quercetin, etc., rather than vaccinating.

      That all said, the new mRNA technology has a lot of potential. With the production facilities they have in place now, you could program a new vaccine and have it rolling off the production line in a matter of days. Who knows, maybe some day we will be glad to have that, even if adverse effects at this stage seem off-putting; I suppose a lot would hinge on the nature and severity of the threat we found ourselves facing.

    107. Scott says:

      Hatuey says:
      6 November, 2022 at 7:21 pm

      So, you don’t trust doctors, health professionals, health planners, nurses, GPs, Government Health managers, public health experts, and a bunch of other people that we rely on every day for basic health care.

      I don’t trust anyone that uses false logic.

      You did, and look how that worked out.

      Auntie Judy’s boy, Jamie Murray, said ‘they wouldn’t advise us to take it if it wasn’t safe’

      Is he the kind of expert you’re referring to, ya crackpot? Could he have played tennis if his maw had taken Thalidomide?

    108. Hatuey says:

      lol @ “Could he have played tennis if his maw had taken Thalidomide?”

      Scott, tell the truth, did you get vaccinated?

    109. Andy Ellis says:

      @Breastplate 11.19 am

      Andy Ellis, on the other hand, was a full throttle bat shit crazy zealot regarding enforcement of the government narrative to the extent that he was willing to help create a vaccine passport apartheid and punish people to the full extent of laws that would be created to specifically fabricate an Untermensch in our society.

      That’s a flat out lie. I never supported vaccine passports here or anywhere else. I also went on record to say I thought vaccinating children was pointless and that many of the restrictions were over the top and went on too long.

      I do think people not being unvaccinated unless they have medical reasons for doing so, rather than woo-woo ascientific “feelings in their water and conspiracy theory dredgings” are anti-social and have likened it’s lack of acceptability to drink driving. It’s an unexceptional view held by most normal folks, which is why the usual suspects in here are so triggered by it.

      The question is, what does a lying piece of scum like you think is gained by lying so publicly?

    110. Scott says:

      Hatuey says:
      6 November, 2022 at 8:47 pm

      Scott, tell the truth, did you get vaccinated?

      I always do, ya crank.

    111. Scott says:

      “I do think people not being unvaccinated [sic] unless they have medical reasons for doing so, rather than woo-woo ascientific “feelings in their water and conspiracy theory dredgings [sic]” are anti-social and have likened it’s [sic] lack of acceptability to drink driving [sic].” Wendy Ellis

      Ellis hates himself and his life so much that he spends time labelling others for pleasure.

      I blame his parents, paira cunts.

    112. Hatuey says:

      So, did you get vaccinated?

    113. Scott says:

      Hatuey says:
      6 November, 2022 at 11:16 pm

      So, did you get vaccinated?

      I ignored the invitation and the reminder. I’ve also ignored the flu/coronavirus jags invitation and shall continue to do so.

      I always assess my own risk when it comes to medication of any sort and request accordingly.

    114. Hatuey says:

      Okay that’s an interesting position, Scott, commendable.

      But wait… assuming you don’t have a lab at home and conduct your own clinical trials, how do you go about assessing risk?

      I’ll go out on a limb and guess that you depend on information provided by health experts, manufacturers, doctors, previous trials and associated data, etc… in other words, you depend on the very same people that all told us the covid vaccines were safe and blatantly deceived us.

      Awkward.

    115. Scott says:

      Hatuey says:
      7 November, 2022 at 12:11 am

      Okay that’s an interesting position, Scott, commendable.

      But wait…

      There is no ‘but wait’, ya stupid cunt.

      Any and all medication I take in the future will be at my request, as happens now. I am capable of research, and discuss my needs with the person with prescribing powers. I know my own body and how it reacts to certain configurations of molecules.

      I also know my rights; I don’t defer to authority people don’t possess. You might have noticed I allude to that quite often.

      Fuck off out of a subject you’re too fucking dense to comprehend.

    116. Andy Ellis says:

      @”Scott” 9.29 pm

      Aw, mate….given the misanthropic wreck of a human being you’ve turned out to be your parents must wish the knocking shop you were conceived in had been better provided with condoms.

    117. Scott says:

      Andy Ellis says:
      7 November, 2022 at 7:44 am

      @”Scott” 9.29 pm

      Aw, mate….given the misanthropic wreck of a human being you’ve turned out to be your parents must wish the knocking shop you were conceived in had been better provided with condoms.

      I never asked my Da where I was conceived or if my Maw charged him for the pleasure every time they did it during their marriage.

      One of them was always a bitter cow, the other looked just like me.

      And just for laughs at your attempt at trashing reputations, my Gran ran a brothel in the East End. Women have always liked their hole and men have always been happy to pay for it. Yer Da might have popped in for a go at whoever was on that night. I come from a very large family, lol.

    118. Aquarius says:

      @scott 9.50.0n 5.11.22

      I am a cycloptic wanker apparently, becuase of my lazy child abusing patents. Even if any of that were true, it is highly offensive. As I have said before, and attracted advsers comment, how could you possibly expect to attract Indy Supporters using language like that?

      All generalisations are false, as an old school chum of mine used to say.

      It is at least helpful for me to know that it is all my parents’ fault that I am a cycloptic wanker. I no longer need to blame myself.

    119. Scott says:

      Aquarius says:
      7 November, 2022 at 12:58 pm

      @scott 9.50.0n 5.11.22

      I am a cycloptic wanker apparently, becuase of my lazy child abusing patents. Even if any of that were true, it is highly offensive. As I have said before, and attracted advsers comment, how could you possibly expect to attract Indy Supporters using language like that?

      All generalisations are false, as an old school chum of mine used to say.

      It is at least helpful for me to know that it is all my parents’ fault that I am a cycloptic wanker. I no longer need to blame myself.

      You’re the one making generalisations here, not I.

      Places like Eton & Harrow do produce cycloptic wankers, I’ve met them. I’ve also met some not like that at all.

      I wasn’t implying that every “Boy” [sic] from such places turned out that way, but they do produce more than their fair share of those who rush to arbitrary judgement in defence of an existential threat that doesn’t exist.

      Well done for agreeing with me, you tautology.

    120. Andy Ellis says:

      @Aquarius

      As you will have discerned “Scott” is WoS’ BTL resident misanthropic zoomer par excellence who has managed to pick fights with folk of all backgrounds.

      He and his enablers have no interest in advancing the cause of it means they can’t scratch their atavistic urge to be sweary online.

    121. James Che says:

      Rev Stu.

      Yesterday my mother passed away suddenly, it is very upsetting to say the least,
      However on posting that I may not be on here regular for a wee period of time,
      There were many warm genuine hearted people that understood and offered their condolences.
      I am sure you will be able to read their names on your following post,

      This happened also at the beginning of this year when I lost four family members in the period of six months during covid and vaccines.
      Again there was much support from your commentators that kept me going, and in general the independence for Scotland supporter is in this class of people.

      But they are being derailed and abused by the same perpetrators time and again, whom no matter the subject being discussed oppose all views and actually agitate for a arguement, seek out a reaction from your regular posters.
      Discussion and debating the topics you post is excellent, and inevitably the topic eventually changes as it runs its course with more information from others being introduced and contributing,

      Your site is invaluable to all of us, and you have kept us up to date with stats, and correcting the actual truth behind story lines from MSM for many years.
      You are as much part of our lives as any one could be, even although we may never meet.

      Keeping all this in mind a few of us have become aware that some of the regular verbal abuse, by the predominately same people being thrown about is beyond the normal on Wings, and appears to seek out to disrupt you site.
      Many still read but have stopped commentating here due to being regularly abused,
      I like a few others have been on your site from pretty much the beginning,

      I suspect your commentators would return in their droves if the regular abusers and deliberate agitators were removed.
      I am taking a break for a short period of time, due to my mother passing away, but I hope to return to your site with renewed vigour for the good of all Scots and Scotlands independence. And end with much affection for you and all your hard work.

    122. Politically Homeless says:

      The Greens work for the same globalist & NGO networks as the SNP leadership. They don’t control the Greens, their “kingmaker” role is a excuse for the SNP leadership to implement a common agenda on the pretext that they’re beholden to coalition partners. Sturgeon wanted a coalition govt with Harvie more than she wanted an outright majority.

    123. Geri says:

      Harvie could’ve said ‘Give us a coalition deal or we’re taking all our crackpots back that have infiltrated the SNP’



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