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Safeguarding is universal

Posted on November 05, 2022 by

Last week Nicola Sturgeon’s government introduced the Gender Recognition Reform Bill (GRRB) at stage one. Cabinet Secretary Shona Robison’s introductory speech sounded reasonable and fair, but those words do not match the deeds of the SNP leadership and they do not reflect reality.

The behaviour of the SNP leadership towards anyone with even the most benign question about this legislation has been aggressive, dismissive, and openly hostile.

This hostility has been tacitly endorsed by the First Minister repeatedly as she has ignored the deeply offensive and misogynistic abuse levelled at Joanna Cherry MP, former Labour leader Johann Lamont, JK Rowling and of course many, many other women and LGB people who have raised genuinely held concerns about trivialising the process for legal transition.

I will never understand the motivation or perspective of a First Minister who dismisses as invalid the worries and concerns held by female survivors of sexual assault and domestic violence about losing access to single-sex refuge and personal care.

To be clear, my concerns are not and never have been about trans people.

As someone who’s been involved in child and adult safeguarding for decades, I know how bad actors can and do take advantage of loose policy. It is therefore inexcusable to draft obviously bad law that discards safeguarding principles. Principles that were established as a consequence of decades of very real harm.

This view has been dismissed as alarmist and transphobic, but these are universal principles and are there to protect everyone including trans people. Predators will use any means available to access those upon whom they prey.

In Kirkcaldy, trans identifying Katie Dolatowski was convicted of assaulting a 10-year-old child in a local supermarket toilet. As a direct consequence the media framed this sexual predator as trans. Indeed, across the UK convicted sexual predators are casually identifying as trans to secure transfer to female prisons where some have gone on to viciously attack vulnerable women. Some reports suggest that around 50% of these inmates are in prison for sexually motivated attacks on women.

How does exposing male genitalia, sexually harassing women in toilets or in extremis, raping a woman with a penis qualify as “living in the acquired gender of female”?

None of this behaviour is reflective of the trans people I know. This is the behaviour of determined sexual predators, and legislation must be designed to protect the trans community from becoming the ready cover for such devious individuals.

While I support reform, at my selection hustings I set out the deep flaws in the GRRB proposal. That night my position won the room and was a key factor in securing my candidacy.

Although GRRB has passed stage one, nine courageous SNP MSPs either voted against or abstained, and I applaud each and every one of them. I know others in the SNP and Labour are holding out for significant amendments that would return safeguarding to the heart of this currently dangerous legislation.

It must be remembered though that getting the legislation through Holyrood is one thing, but how it fits with extant equalities legislation is quite another, and the UK Government may therefore block the Scottish Government. Which leads me to conclude; it might turn out to be absolutely necessary for Nicola Sturgeon to secure independence to stand any chance of getting her GRRB onto the statute book.

But in such circumstances, she would have to win the argument on its own merits and would not be able to rely on the votes of independence supporters to avoid the many significant questions that demand serious answers.

As we say in Fife – guid luck wae that.

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    138 to “Safeguarding is universal”

    1. willie says:

      A very good piece by Neale Hanvey.

      Quite what drives Nicola Sturgeon and her ilk is difficult to understand. This policy, this focus of government is at variance with the vast majority of the electorate, focusses on a very very few truly trans people, and as a consequence exposes a huge swathe of women to very real danger.

      The legislation moreover may ultimately be struck down by our superior parliament in Westminster. And that of course is another facet that has not truly been discussed. Westminster, our superior parliament riding to our aid, reversing a policy unpopular with the people of Scotland.

      Three cheers for Westminster. Is that the game plan. Difficult not to think such a thing. Sturgeon after all is actively undermining independence, and what better way than to introduce unpopular legislation opening the door for White Knight Westminster to ride to our aid.

    2. Tom Kane says:

      Thanks, Neale. Beautifully crafted and carefully put argument to safeguard safe spaces and genuinely trans people: people who want to live as one of the opposite sex, and who are not planning to harm or take advantage of people of the opposite sex.

      And this
      “It must be remembered though that getting the legislation through Holyrood is one thing, but how it fits with extant equalities legislation is quite another, and the UK Government may therefore block the Scottish Government.”
      … The tories will block the GRA legislation if it is passed. Which is a relief and a burden.

      The Westminster Parliament will show itself as the grown up forum on this issue. Hence giving Westminster more grist to the mill… Particularly if they decide to Stormont the Scottish Parliament by closing it down for any reason, such as, for example, finally pursuing independence with intent.

      O, if we only had people of conscience throughout the Scottish Parliament. I specifically remember being told that the SP would be different from the WP because at voting time msps vote at their desk, and in private, so they are expected to vote with their conscience, and to face the music afterwards. Rather than at WP where people are manhandled and jeered at in different corridors on the way to the voting station.

      Concience above all on this matter.

      Thanks, Neale. Respect.

    3. Scott says:

      GRR Bill cannot possibly become law, because it deviates so far from the purpose & effect of primary legislation [GRA 2004] that afforded Scottish Ministers & Parliament the ability to amend for specific purposes.

      “An Act to make provision for and in connection with change of gender.

      Applications for gender recognition certificate

      1 Applications

      (1) A person of either gender who is aged at least 18 may make an application for a gender recognition certificate on the basis of—

      (a) living in the other gender, or

      (b) having changed gender under the law of a country or territory outside the United Kingdom.

      (2) In this Act “the acquired gender”, in relation to a person by whom an application under subsection (1) is or has been made, means—

      (a) in the case of an application under paragraph (a) of that subsection, the gender in which the person is living, or

      (b) in the case of an application under paragraph (b) of that subsection, the gender to which the person has changed under the law of the country or territory concerned.

      (3) An application under subsection (1) is to be determined by a Gender Recognition Panel.

      (4) Schedule 1 (Gender Recognition Panels) has effect.

      2 Determination of applications

      (1) In the case of an application under section 1(1)(a), the Panel must grant the application if satisfied that the applicant—

      (a) has or has had gender dysphoria,

      (b) has lived in the acquired gender throughout the period of two years ending with the date on which the application is made,

      c) intends to continue to live in the acquired gender until death, and

      (d) complies with the requirements imposed by and under section 3.

      (2) In the case of an application under section 1(1)(b), the Panel must grant the application if satisfied—

      (a) that the country or territory under the law of which the applicant has changed gender is an approved country or territory, and

      (b) that the applicant complies with the requirements imposed by and under section 3.

      (3) The Panel must reject an application under section 1(1) if not required by subsection (1) or (2) to grant it.

      http://www.legislation.gov.uk/ukpga/2004/7

    4. panda paws says:

      “I know others in the SNP and Labour are holding out for significant amendments that would return safeguarding to the heart of this currently dangerous legislation.”

      Apparently at stage 2 only the committee can vote on whether amendments are adopted. So that will be a no since the majority of the committee are captured.

      It will only be at the final stage that the whole parliament can vote and propose amendments. Which is cutting it fairly fine if you ask me!

      https://archive.ph/zvbNe

    5. willie says:

      And whilst Sturgeon and her government focus on the GRR legislation and turning our society, our schools and our way of life upside down what is our government doing about crime.

      Scotland is in the grip of crime epidemic. With horrendous slaying and maiming going on, often in broad daylight and or public view, have the police lost control. Are we now as New York was in the 1970s. And is the level of crime being under reported.

      This is a question that should be being asked of Ms Sturgeon and the government.

      For the most part most folks know that Police Scotland is politically corrupt with a bottomless budget when it comes to pursuing politically motivated focus. The Salmond investigation, the pursuance of Mark Hirst, Craig Murray, et al tells us that policing is political. As does the pursuance of a MP Margaret Ferrier who tested positive for Covid, who was not pursued after complaint to the Met, but who was thereafter pursued with all vigour by Police Scotland. No shortage of resources there.

      But then there is crime, the type that stalks our streets, delivers the most horrendous slaying and maiming, whilst poisoning the entire system. Have the Police lost control. Are they being told to keep the lid on it. Are the politicos covering up whilst our society burns like a south American narco-state.

      And as our economy tumbles, as survival becomes tougher, living becomes harder, crime usually rises. And so, with our Police force improperly focussed on the political, a police force most probably underfunded and police force that has already lost control, how much worse might things get.

      No good in asking Sturgeon. And for the Police, very many of whom do a hard difficult job trying their very best, who is going to support them going forward.

      Dark days ahead – more cuts Mr Swinney?

    6. Ottomanboi says:

      Whatever this is it does nothing to further independence. However, may well further Sturgeon’s career prospects in WokeWorld.She’s to speak at a NY Times thing at Sharm. Scottish independence is not likely to be on the menu.
      This might though https://cooking.nytimes.com/tag/sturgeon
      «Sturgeon meat is extremely versatile. It takes on virtually any flavor with ease»

    7. Alisdair Mclean says:

      This is completely off topic but does anyone know how I can join ALBA? I have tried several times online. I press continue and nothing happens.

    8. Dave M says:

      It’s simple to identify what drives Sturgeon: she’s a raging (weak) narcissist who is obsessed with securing the place in history that she deserves. Behind that is groupthink on the part of her acolytes in the SNP and Civil Service, not to mention the lunatics in the Green Party.

    9. Dave M says:

      To clarify, she thinks she deserves a place in history. The one she ultimately secures will be unlikely to match the one in her head.

    10. Ruby says:

      To be clear, my concerns are not and never have been about trans people.

      What is a trans person Neale?

    11. Ruby says:

      How does exposing male genitalia, sexually harassing women in toilets or in extremis, raping a woman with a penis qualify as “living in the acquired gender of female”?

      There are many questions and no answers.

      How does having a penis qualify as “living in the acquired gender of female”?

      What does “living in the acquired gender of female” actually mean?

      Everything about ‘gender recognition’ is totally mad.

      Claiming ‘transwomen are women’ is a huge insult to women.

      Does any of this cause problems for men other than concern for their female relatives?

      Is anyone asking ‘What is a man?’

    12. Ruby says:

      Whether Sturgeon’s GRR Bill goes through or not there are still going to be huge problems.

      All this ‘living as a woman’ is out of the bag now. Everyone knows you just put on a dress and hey presto you are a woman.

      See Eddie Izzard.

      Reform to the Gender Recognition Act 2004 is needed and that is simply to say transwomen are transwomen.

      Being that transwomen are men they could just continue to use male facilities and if they don’t like that they can fight to have their own short lists, toilets, changing rooms & sports.

    13. Merganser says:

      Ruby says: ‘Everything about gender recognition is totally mad’.

      Exactly. Just like Sturgeon. 100% genuine fruit cake bonkers.

      Her supporters love her for it. The Pied Piper of Dreghorn has bewitched them and has stolen the children. How to get them back is the problem. The price will have be paid.

    14. Ruby says:

      https://archive.ph/oGwYg

      Police forces let rapists record their gender as female

      While some police forces said they record the fact if someone identifies as transgender, this information is not placed on the ADR, which provides only male or female options. Transgender status is stated only if the person is a victim of transgender hate crime.

      It’s all totally mad!

    15. Robert Hughes says:

      Ruby says: ‘Everything about gender recognition is totally mad’.

      Yip . No offence to Neale – he comes across as decent fair-minded person . BUT !

      When are people in his position going to acknowledge the sinister * Social Engineering * + Corporate interests behind all this ?

      The idea that it’s ONLY about helping * oppressed * individuals is ludicrously naive . For one thing…..how are * Trans * people being oppressed ? They have the same rights as anyone else , despite the hysterical , politically motivated attempts to portray themselves as victims on the same level as the true victims of the Holocaust .

      As has been stated frequently ….. you don’t help one group of ( supposedly ) oppressed people by totally oppressing another group – in this instance , the largest group anywhere ie …women .

      As has also been stated frequently ….. the solution to this conflict is for Trans people to advocate and work for 3rd spaces , sports etc . Something they appear to have zero interest in doing . From which we’re forced to conclude the aim is the complete eradication of the category Woman .

      They may claim they are * just * trying to EXTEND the category of Woman ; what , to include Men ? That is plainly ridiculous .

      No , the shadowy aspects of this phenomenon must be exposed to the light of Reason and – if there is any left – political good judgement .

      Partisan bad actors like Sturgeon need to be told to fuck-off . She may not believe it , but there are far more crucially important things in the world than her imaginary * legacy *

    16. Alisdair Mclean says:

      Speaking as a toaster trapped in a heterosexual man’s body I would just like to how we came to this sorry pass? Got to go now. couple of slices of bread coming along.

    17. panda paws says:

      @Ruby 2.34pm

      You might be interested in the following petition

      “Update the Equality Act to make clear the characteristic “sex” is biological sex”

      https://petition.parliament.uk/petitions/623243

      So far Scotland is providing a lot of the signatures. Last heard the top three areas were all in Edinburgh and none were Joanna Cherry’s constituency- her’s was only 13th highest! Sturgeon will be unhappy!

    18. Republicofscotland says:

      Thank you for that Mr Hanvey, its definitely not right that self-identifying males can/could impose on women and girls safe spaces.

      I think only a small amount of those that are trans have a GRC.

      As for Sturgeon’s baby, GRR, it’s very telling that she didn’t send that to the UKSC to decide if Holyrood had the competency to pursue it, but somehow the competency on holding an indyref was in serious doubt and was sent to the UKSC to decide.

      We’ve known for a while now that Scottish independence isn’t a priority for Sturgeon, and her baby the GRR is.

    19. mike cassidy says:

      Neale

      I don’t get this as workable even if its passed

      Without a definition of ‘woman’ – or ‘man’ in the legislation

      How can anybody make a claim of having lived as the gender of their choice for a specific period?

      How can anybody assess it?

      The people pushing the legislation must be aware of this

      What is their end game here?

      GRC Self-assessment?

      With all that implies for safeguarding?

    20. George Ferguson says:

      A beautiful piece by Neale Hanvey. That’s a nailed on vote for Alba from me, if they stand in my constituency at the next GE.

    21. Smitty says:

      I cannot believe that SNP has chosen this hill to die on. It is a slow moving car crash which everyone could see was going to happen but they kept on going in the sane direction. I have full admiration for those who voted against this especially Ash Regan who was getting pelters for this. There is no doubt the rest of SNP have gone home to hundreds of emails complaining with the bill. I have heard already of deeply unhappy members hatching campaigns and looking for candidates to challenge the likes of Alasdair Allan, Jenni Minto and Neil Gray for their seats. They were all warned by their memberships but listened to the one-sided nonsense from Sturgeon and Robison. Those who voted against it will have much more longevity than those cowards who voted for it. Nicola will not be in post for much longer and this is all part of her retirement plan. They have stupidly believed it all and were arrogant to think that the public would be daft enough to buy into it. Hell mend the lot of them! Good work Neale and as someone previously opposed to Alba, I hope the folk of Kirkaldy vote you back in!

    22. Ruby says:

      How does exposing male genitalia, sexually harassing women in toilets or in extremis, raping a woman with a penis qualify as “living in the acquired gender of female”?

      How would you prevent the exposure of male genitalia by someone who identifies as a woman in a woman’s changing room where it’s normal for women to be totally naked.

      Will indecent exposure be perfectly legal in female changing rooms if the flasher is “living in the acquired gender of female”?

      I have many questions!

    23. Ruby says:

      What is the difference between Sturgeon’s self-id and “living in the acquired gender of female” with regard to ‘safeguarding’?

      Why is Alba’s policy better than the SNP’s?

    24. Rab Davis says:

      Ruby

      Can a female rape another female?

      Has any female been charged in Scotland with raping another female?

      Curious.

    25. Kcor says:

      “This hostility has been tacitly endorsed by the First Minister repeatedly as she has ignored the deeply offensive and misogynistic abuse levelled at Joanna Cherry MP”

      If Joanna Cherry had any sense of honour and self respect, she would have left the SNP a long time ago.

      She hasn’t because she is as ambitious as the biggest betrayer in Scottish history.

    26. Scott says:

      Rab Davis says:
      5 November, 2022 at 7:30 pm

      Can a female rape another female?

      Has any female been charged in Scotland with raping another female?

      Curious.

      Sexual Offences (Scotland) Act 2009

      1 Rape

      (1)If a person (“A”), with A’s penis—

      (a)without another person (“B”) consenting, and

      (b)without any reasonable belief that B consents,

      penetrates to any extent, either intending to do so or reckless as to whether there is penetration, the vagina, anus or mouth of B then A commits an offence, to be known as the offence of rape.

      (2)For the purposes of this section, penetration is a continuing act from entry until withdrawal of the penis; but this subsection is subject to subsection (3).

      (3)In a case where penetration is initially consented to but at some point of time the consent is withdrawn, subsection (2) is to be construed as if the reference in it to a continuing act from entry were a reference to a continuing act from that point of time.

      (4)In this Act—

      “penis” includes a surgically constructed penis if it forms part of A, having been created in the course of surgical treatment, and

      “vagina” includes—

      (a)the vulva, and

      (b)a surgically constructed vagina (together with any surgically constructed vulva), if it forms part of B, having been created in the course of such treatment.

    27. Rab Davis says:

      Because in Sturgeon’s NuSNP Scotland, a man can be classed as a “woman” after three months.

      Therefore, technically, a “woman” with a dick in Scotland could potentially rape another (genuine) woman.

    28. Lekraw says:

      This is exactly the kind of reason we need Wings back full time Stu.

      No other media outlet in Scotland is giving a voice to the likes of Neale, or anyone who contradicts the SNP line.

      We need a media space that people know, because it states its claims and sources its evidence to back them up.

    29. Ruby says:

      Rab Davis says:
      5 November, 2022 at 7:56 pm

      Because in Sturgeon’s NuSNP Scotland, a man can be classed as a “woman” after three months.

      Therefore, technically, a “woman” with a dick in Scotland could potentially rape another (genuine) woman.
      men


      It seems he can be classed as a “woman” as soon as he says he’s a woman.

      It’s utter madness.

      The only sane solution to all of this is to say men cannot become women.

    30. Shug says:

      The policy is designed to be a failure
      Nicola and her team have been compromised and they are being directed to produce bad policies and they are doing it deliberately!!
      It is no surprise you read in the MSM about SNP officers being picked up for child grooming issues when they are being let through and supported by the party.

    31. Neale Hanvey says:

      @mike cassidy

      Mike as the proposed legislation stands there would be no gate keeping, no safeguarding and no process for therapeutic support prior to young people making irreversible decisions. All of this sits outwith long established safeguarding practice in response to predators exploiting all possible routes to victims.

      We know that predators are devious and seek out opportunities where they have privileged access to vulnerable prey. They have also exploited positions of power and influence – priests/religious groups, nursery workers, sports coaches and I’ve had to deal with registered nurses who were found to be a danger.

      If predators are prepared to study for the priesthood, or complete a degree in nursing to have intimate access to prey, does anyone seriously believe they won’t self-ID when there’s no gatekeeping and any challenge is defended with accusations of trans bigotry?

      Safeguarding principles could help soften the process to GRC and protect the trans population from the infiltration of nefarious actors. However, as things stand the risk levels are reckless in the extreme. It’s a ludicrous way to deal with such a sensitive and important matter, but the FM has tunnel vision on this and that is deep concern all of its own.

    32. James Barr Gardner says:

      Many similarities now existing between that of the UK and Imperial Rome, as they say empires rise and fall the UK’s is long overdue.

      Many of the problems that led to Rome’s decline were due to government and economic corruption. Rome’s economy was based on slave labor. By relying on slave labor, there was a large gap between the rich and the poor. The rich grew wealthy from their slaves while the poor could not find enough work.

    33. twathater says:

      Neale and many of the other advocates support a watered down version of sturgeon’s perverted deviance , they cite that normal trans people (whatever that means) need respect and protection

      Can I ask Neale or anyone is this an ILLNESS is it classed as such , I have heard it called dysphoria is THAT an illness, if so what kind of illness is it , is it a physical illness or a mental illness , or if it is NOT an illness what exactly is it

      Is the medical profession denying science and biology are they now saying that your DNA and Chromosomes are meaningless

      If it is a mental illness is it right that we should be changing legislation and the definition of sex to accommodate people with mental health problems

      There are medical illnesses related to Body integrity dysphoria (BIID, also referred to as body integrity identity disorder,one of these is xenomelia,formally called Apotemnophilia which denotes a syndrome in which a person is preoccupied with the desire to amputate a healthy limb , read that again, A DESIRE TO AMPUTATE A HEALTHY LIMB , should we not also get sturgeon to introduce legislation and policies for people who don’t like the look of their right leg or left leg to self identify as a one legged person and insist that it is removed

      Another is called Somatoparaphrenia and is a type of monothematic delusion where one denies ownership of a limb or an entire side of one’s body. Even if provided with undeniable proof that the limb belongs to and is attached to their own body, the patient produces elaborate confabulations about whose limb it really is or how the limb ended up on their body.[1][2] In some cases, delusions become so elaborate that a limb may be treated and cared for as if it were a separate being

      Neurological results suggest that BIID is a brain disorder producing a disruption of the body image,so according to wiki it is a mental disorder and the general population have to stand by and accept politicians accommodating and pandering to people with mental health issues

      Next up is MAP (MINOR ATTRACTED PEOPLE)or in old money PAEDOPHILES who are very misunderstood , will our politicians introduce legislation to safeguard and protect these much maligned individuals because children according to Peter Tatchell In a review of a 1986 collection of essays compiled by Warren Middleton, former vice-chairman of the Paedophile Information Exchange (PIE), Mr Tatchell, a gay rights campaigner, said that children should be “educated” so that they can decide when they want to have sex.

      Mr Tatchell had even written a chapter for Middleton’s anthology – Radical perspectives on Childhood Sexuality, Intergenerational Sex, and the Social Oppression of Children and Young People – but has since attempted to distance himself, claiming that he was “conned” into contributing to “that vile book”.

    34. twathater says:

      TBQH I also take exception to Neale saying ” nine courageous SNP MSPs either voted against or abstained, and I applaud each and every one” I respect that they did so but it is hardly courageous, also where have they been and why have they not came forward previously all the time this reviled legislation has been pushed forward incessantly by THEIR PARTY and THEIR FM , WHY has it taken so long for their consciences to appear, and let’s remember there was ONLY 7 objectors 2 didn’t have the courage to openly object they hid their courage under an abstention

      If they get deselected or punished will they take their new found courage over to ALBA where they can continue their lucrative careers and hopefully add to their already burgeoning pension pots, it can be extremely expensive being courageous with delayed integrity and conscience

    35. Breeks says:

      twathater says:
      6 November, 2022 at 3:59 am

      … I respect that they did so but it is hardly courageous, also where have they been and why have they not came forward previously…

      I feel similar, but in addition, I deeply resent the level of “respect” given to an insurrection cell which has usurped the political mandate won on the back of Scottish Independence, and forced itself onto the agenda with wholly unwarranted prominence while the individuals responsible then trash the entire Independence movement.

      It is frankly outrageous these boorish brass necked infiltrators are given the time of day. It certainly isn’t rebellious to condemn them when any reasoned perspective would recognise their clandestine methods and activities as seditious.

      If they had an ounce of courage or integrity, they’d take their crank medicine, anti-scientific beliefs and cosy proximity to paedophilia to the people directly, and make their case stand or fall on merit without hijacking the noble pursuit of Scottish Independence. We all of us, even them, know how that would end, so they needed a meal ticket, and latched onto the SNP.

      But these political carpetbaggers, Sturgeon in particular, are no better than thieves and grifters who have disgraced the SNP and suffered the most grievous injury and woeful misdirection upon Scotland’s struggle to reclaim it’s Independence.

      It isn’t courage these nine are feeling, it’s their conscience stirring, and credit where it’s due, it’s better late than never. As for the others, shame on every one of them.

    36. Dorothy Devine says:

      I wrote to my SNP MP a couple of years ago , saying that I thought they were following the biggest vote loser in the history of womankind. I had a lengthy reply of a watery agreement and some waffle.
      I will not forgive concerns being considered ‘invalid’.
      I will not vote SNP or Green or any party which supports this bill.

    37. Republicofscotland says:

      Just listened to Martin Geissler interview Sir Kier Starmer on radio Scotland in which Starmer all but said, that even if the UKSC did say that Scotland had the right to hold an indyref, he and his party wouldn’t be for it.

      He wants Scotland to remain in the UK no matter what, Geissler did press him on the question of what about democracy and Scots right to choose to leave this union, of which Starmer waffled on about better together.

      Its patently obvious and has been for a while now that there’s no route out of this union via Westminster no matter which party is in government.

      In my opinion on the constitutional matter of Scots having the right to choose to leave this union, via Westminster that there is a huge deficit of democracy, and that we are being denied our right to choose to leave or stay, this equates to a colonial position in my mind, and even though Scotland is a country we need some sort of body outwith Holyrood (basically the SNP government isn’t interested) that can approach the UN on this matter, for the SNP government under Sturgeon’s tenure is quite content to govern as a colonial administration to the detriment of Scots and Scottish assets.

      So, there you have even if the Tories lose the next GE and Labour wins it, we still won’t get the choice to leave or stay in this union, that isn’t democracy at work by a long shot.

    38. William Habib Steele says:

      We need to pay attention the the influence of Queer Theory in this push. Writers such as Gale Rubins and Hannah Dyer want the see the abolition of gender and sex altogether as categories of understanding. The pushing of trans ideology is stepping stone for this goal. They also want to see the abolition of the distinctions between adulthood and childhood, the abolition of the age of consent, the abolition of anti-incest laws.

      I think most people who suffer from the condition of “gender” dysphoria and want to change their “gender” or sex are unaware of Queer Theory. Dr Colin Morrison, who was recently appointed to be in charge of resources for the Relationship Sexuality, Health, and Parenting curriculum in Scottish Schools is a proponent of at least some elements of Queer Theory.

    39. Republicofscotland says:

      Meanwhile the leader of Glasgow city council the SNP’s Susan Aitken and two staff members will fly out on Tuesday to Egypt to the COP27, and stay in a five star hotel and resort, the jolly by the SNP leader at the GCC is expected to cost over £7,000 pounds of taxpayers cash, they will stay at the five star hotel and resort for four days.

      Aitken is the one on the right.

      https://i2-prod.dailyrecord.co.uk/incoming/article27861276.ece/ALTERNATES/s615b/0_JS265458536.jpg

    40. Republicofscotland says:

      This is outrageous, and parents MUST know what’s happening to their children in schools.

      “Teachers have been ordered not to tell parents if their under-age children are identifying as a different gender. Staff at a West Dunbartonshire high school received an email from the head teacher warning them they should not be divulging the information even about 12-year-olds.

      Pupils can ask staff to address them by a new name and pronouns, meaning youngsters born female will be referred to as “he” or “him” and vice-versa, while also taking on a new name. But as a result of controversial Scottish Government guidance many local authorities actively conceal the information from parents if the child doesn’t want them to know as the guidance states transgender is “not a child protection or wellbeing issue”.”

      https://12ft.io/proxy?q=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.dailyrecord.co.uk%2Fnews%2Fscottish-news%2Fscots-teachers-banned-telling-parents-28419310

    41. Ruby says:

      https://archive.ph/IgRDV
      Why I will never use female pronouns for Eddie Izzard
      How long will it be before only men are allowed to call themselves women?

      the only time you see the word woman used in a proud, unabashed way these days is in reference to men.

      You go, girl’, the cultural elites cry every time a man says he’s a woman.

      Yet when women proudly call themselves women, it’s a hate crime. Kellie-Jay Keen is branded a bigot for turning the dictionary definition of a woman – ‘adult human female’ – into a political cry

      Politicians for the most part are just ignoring these issues there are a few exceptions.

      What are Alba politicians saying?

    42. sarah says:

      @ Republic of Scotland: “..we need some sort of body outwith Holyrood to approach the UN..”

      I’m sure you have signed up to the Edinburgh Proclamation already but if not, it’s on salvo.scot and liberation.scot.

      We need another 20 per existing signatories to reach the target – get cracking everyone as we can’t afford to wait any longer than necessary to make that approach to the UN.

    43. Ruby says:

      The male colonisation of womanhood is clear from the neverending saga of Eddie Izzard’s gender identity.

      Interesting way of looking at it.

      I wonder when our colonizers will decide on a name for us? I wanted to write women but felt I had to qualify what I meant by saying ‘real women’ ‘biological women’.

    44. willie says:

      Since 2019 over 500 sex offenders have changed their name.

      And now with this legislation folks are to be allowed at the drop of a hat to change their sex.

      It’s the absolute policy of the madhouse which without doubt will put not just women at risk, but also children. And this is what Nicola Sturgeon fervently supports.

      Truly makes you wonder if she is a chick with a dick. Indeed, anecdotal reports suggest that she and her husband have a coloured background.

      Anyway, sex offenders changing their name, and now being able to change their sex, that’ll help cloak them, throw people off the trail.

    45. Ruby says:

      You have to hand it to men they have really won this ‘battle of the sexes’ they have successfully colonized women and even got ‘Scotland’s most famous feminist’ on their side.

      Is she a ("Tractor" - Ed), a gold digger, a liar or an absolute fool?

    46. Stuart MacKay says:

      On the subject of safeguarding, this came up in The Telegraph,

      Trans criminals can use ‘loophole’ to hide previous convictions when applying for jobs, https://archive.ph/NKYfz

      Given the source you can take the story with a large pinch of Conservative wailing and gnashing of teeth (it’s also a great place for a good laugh). However the subject of the loophole brought up in a report from a report from Keep Prisons Single Sex: “DBS Checks & Identity Verification: Safeguarding Loopholes Created by Changes of Identity” https://t.co/3Slb5pG2q2

      If the loophole exists and this is in UK legislation, then clearly either nobody is thinking this through or they are and they are either in denial or willfully ignoring it as there is a fundamental disconnect between everyone can be trans if they feel like it and the vulnerable in society – where “vulnerable” is any situation anyone finds themselves in, at any time when there is no way out without significant penalty where the delivery of that penalty is either through violence or the law.

      Given the eagerness of the Scottish Government to break new ground in the liberation of people’s inner feelings when it comes to sex then the legislation is just as likely to be so full of holes it would make Swiss cheese blush with shame.

      Why is the True-Trans lobby so silent on this, or are they afraid to speak up. It’s not up to society to deliver the affirmation of their identity that they themselves lack. Come back with a more sensible set of proposals and we’ll talk.

    47. John Main says:

      @Republicofscotland says:6 November, 2022 at 10:47 am

      “Meanwhile the leader of Glasgow city council the SNP’s Susan Aitken and two staff members will fly out on Tuesday to Egypt to the COP27, and stay in a five star hotel and resort”

      Hope they eat lots of salad and fruit while they are out there!

      [For anybody who doesn’t get the joke, the sure-fire dead-cert route to spending 3 days on the bog in Egypt is to eat anything uncooked, un-canned, or unbottled, even in a 5-star establishment]

      Who’s the one on the left?

    48. Breeks says:

      William Habib Steele says:
      6 November, 2022 at 10:38 am

      …. They also want to see the abolition of the distinctions between adulthood and childhood, the abolition of the age of consent, the abolition of anti-incest laws.

      With respect William, what they’re discussing is paedoplilia, sex with minors, and discussion of abusing children and worse, advocating a tolerance of it, should be right out at the very edge of the “barely tolerated” periphery of society, NOT a mainstream raison d’etre for a Devolved “Government” specifically elected to further Scottish Independence.

      I don’t want their sleazy agenda in my face any more than I want to hear the shpeel of a dodgy Timeshare Rep whose blocking my sun on the beach. No sale, now fk off.

      I don’t mean you yourself William, please don’t think I’m having a go at you. I appreciate you’re making a constructive and well meant comment and not an advocate of Queer Theory. I mean this whole Trans bollox from cover to cover. Eight years of this pish. I’m fkg sick of it. If I never see another flag with pink on it in my entire life, it will be too soon.

      If the SNP was worth a sook, they’d expel the lot of them and tell the fkers to start their own Party and hand back the SNP to the Scottish Independence Movement which spent 70 years+ building it. Leave the keys with one of “the Nine” eh?

      Instead it’s the SNP’s soul for Independence which had to flee and run for it’s life, jump ship and start over from scratch with ALBA’s rowing boat, because the good ship Holyrood has been commandeered by pirates, plundered for doubloons, set on fire, and deliberately run aground.

      Maybe… Maybe it can be refloated one day. But not with all those Jolly Rogers still on board.

      Captain Bligh was cast adrift in a rowing boat, made it home after surviving 3,600miles in his wee rowing boat, and he lived to see three of his mutineers hanged.

      Never underestimate the potential of a rowing boat on a mission.

    49. John Main says:

      @Ruby says:6 November, 2022 at 11:25 am

      “You have to hand it to men they have really won this ‘battle of the sexes’”

      I am going to stick my neck out, say I speak for all decent, well-adjusted men on here and in Scotland, and assert this is not a battle we wanted, let alone a battle we wanted to win.

    50. stuart mctavish says:

      In good old days tranny bollocks wouldn’t have amounted to much more than exaggerated trolling in response to English twee about men in skirts but in FFS Scotland who knows.

      Accordingly, and with profound apologies to Ruby, a good way to explore further, and help determine how many might be keen to stay on board regardless, would be to simply supplement next years referendum question with something along lines of ‘(Should Scotland be an independent country..) where men can identify as anonymous women and help resolve the enigma of whether to be more scared of smacked bottoms, sleepy cuddles or the common cold

    51. Rab Davis says:

      Main/Ellis

      Don’t kid yersel.

      You are a wee effeminate Wanker from England.

      Fuck off!!!

    52. James che says:

      If the P Do Bill gets passed in Scotlands devolved government.

      Then we can safely say that there are P DOs not just in the SNP, the Greens, but in of the Devolved government. For the screams of protests should be so loud from all parties,
      throughout Holyrood they could be heard across Britain and msm media should be having a heyday with Bill.

      All of the Law makers sitting in Scotland should be protesting on behalf of the safety children and women.

      Perhaps the wheels of P dos rings in Scotland in among the wealthier elete are well established,

      And therefore anyone saying yes to this bill in Holyrood, passing this bill in the eyes of the public are self identifying as a P Do.

    53. Ian Brotherhood says:

      ‘What’s the root cause of the US proxy war in Uk**ine? Most people don’t have a clue. Let me explain.

      It all started after the 2007-2008 financial crisis that originated in the US. The reliability of the US Govt as a partner in global financial affairs was destroyed.

      In 2009 R**sia hosted the first BRICS summit to establish a better international financial system with China, India, Brazil, South Africa and later with future BRICS+ partners. In short a new “multipolar order”. BRICS is challenging the US Dollar reserve currency status.

      That started a new Cold War with R**sia and China. US National Debt is now at $31 trillion, total US Debt is at $92 trillion and total US unfunded liabilities are at $172 trillion and all of that without any US Govt surplus to pay for any of it. Only more Debt and money printing.

      The US Govt knows that without the reserve currency status it is bankrupt. Without money printing on the backs of other nations it’s simply Game Over for the US. But not just for the US. The EU and most western democracies followed the US model of endless Debt and money printing.

      That’s why they stand with the US and support the escalating actions that seem totally illogical to most people. Why is the EU sacrificing prosperity for a US proxy war in U**aine? Because if the US is collapsing they collapse too. Their alliance is glued by the fear of failure.

      BRICS+ was on track to launch its new global financial system by 2030. U**aine is the tool for conflict with R**sia and Taiwan is the tool for conflict with China. Eventually the US and NATO will be at war with R**sia and China. They simply don’t seem to have another choice.

      It’s either war with R**sia and China to stop BRICS+ or the financial collapse of the US, EU and the entire Debt and money printing circus. It was never about the people of U**aine. U**aine is a sideshow. The main event is yet to come. The two options are poverty or nuclear war.’

      https://twitter.com/threadreaderapp/status/1589217602315902976

    54. Ruby says:

      A couple of links that I archived to read later.
      https://archive.ph/B3Gks

      Gender recognition reform: SNP rebels force Sturgeon to back off

      https://archive.ph/dK2Ur

      Former SNP councillor groomed and abused six boys

      Also audiobook that I downloaded from Library. Has anyone read this?

      Sounds interesting. Was this Edinburgh Skating Club featured in the famous painting men only?
      The Edinburgh Skating Club by Michelle Sloan

      When you look at a painting, what do you really see? When eighteenth-century poet Alison Cockburn accepts a light-hearted challenge from her good friend Katherine Hume to live as a man, in order to infiltrate the infamous Edinburgh Skating Club, little do they both realise how her new identity will shape their futures. Together they navigate their way through the sights, sounds and faces of Enlightenment Edinburgh, from Old Town to New Town and from joyous friendship to a deep affection. In twenty-first-century Edinburgh, art historian Claire Sharp receives a mysterious request: to settle once and for all the true provenance of the iconic painting The Skating Minister. But when she and friend Jen Brodie dig deeper, they discover the incredible truth behind the painting and two extraordinary women Enlightenment Edinburgh forgot.

    55. Robert Hughes says:

      ” What are Alba politicians saying? ”

      See article above .

      What they seem to be saying is along the lines of ” please , please , please don’t think we’re like those horrid * Transphobes * , we think * Trans * are , yes , ” incredibly brave ” , heroic even , on a par with Wilhelmena Wallace n Roberta Bruce , but , if it’s ok with you , would it be possible to ask them not to use Woman’s spaces ? We realise using that contentious term – ie ” Woman ” could be considered terribly hurtful but we don’t really know how else to refer to Adult Female Humans . Apologies in advance for any offence taken ”

      We can appreciate the civilised , non-confrontational approach of well-meaning people like Neale Hanvey , but is it not about time people in positions of public prominence actually DO confront this lunatic ideology , rather than – as currently – pandering to it ? *

      * cue comment from ” Parliamentary Twat Of The Year ” Pee Wee Wishart dribbling about * Hate * .

    56. James che says:

      Neale Hanvey.

      That was a double Whammy with your mention of energy in Scotland,

      Not much is reported at home or abroad from Holyrood on the Colonised subject,
      But Westminster parliament and all that goes on in it is watched around the world,
      Other countries for the first time will be aware that Scotland is Colonised, including the UN, europe, etc.
      Well done Neale.

    57. Ruby says:

      What about ‘Denzil Meyrick’s ‘Tale from Kinloch’ series’
      anyone read these?

      A Large Measure of Snow (2020)
      A Toast to the Old Stones (2021)
      Ghosts in the Gloaming (2022)

      According to the synopsis one of the characters in ‘Ghosts in the Gloaming’ is called Dreich MacCallum.

      Dreich is a great nickname.

      Oh shut up! I know I am way off topic but there is only so much time one can spend talking about the utter madness of gender recognition.

    58. Angry Weegie says:

      While I support and agree with Neale’s concerns about the bill, which is an extraordinary poor attempt at legislation, more holes than a colander (sorry), I would be interested to know what reforms he does support. What rights do trans people lack which would be addressed by his view of necessary reform?

    59. John Main says:

      Ian Brotherhood 12:28

      Maybes the EU is “supporting a proxy war” cos it realises that without Poland, Estonia, Latvia, Lithuania, and all the other countries it will see annexed if Vlad goes unopposed, the EU will fall apart.

      Plenty of EUphiles posting on here. Shame it takes an EUphobe like me to point out the existential threat the EU faces.

      Don’t tell me Vlad has no annexation plans for these countries. He said exactly that about 404. Look what happened.

      And if he does succeed with the annexation of 404, he will have all of the same pretexts he used before, which incidentally some on here claim to support, for his next invasions.

      You know the ones I mean: missiles, NATO, EU and girly-men just across his borders, threatening the immortal soul of Holy Mother Russti.

    60. John Main says:

      @Rab Davis 12:04

      Why do you capitalise “wanker”? It’s not a proper noun.

      Study my posts to learn how to do things right. ATM, you’re leaving the impression you are barely literate, and that impresses nobody.

    61. John Main says:

      @Ruby 12:51

      Great post, thanks for the links.

      Get back to us when you have read them. I feel I speak for many on here when I say that I can’t wait to read your analysis and conclusions.

    62. Stuart MacKay says:

      John Main

      (My first attempt fell into the moderation black hole. So let’s try again with some choice word changes.)

      I know equating VP with that well-known Austrian is de rigeur in polite circles but how exactly would a country with a population of 145 million take over it’s former satellites who are now deeply hostile with a combined population of 95 million. You can’t do it militarily. We can can see the results of not committing enough resources in eastern 404. It might be possible politically but that’s a decades long project.

      A more interesting approach is what is supposedly happening with that Olaf Schulz delegation visiting China. Perhaps Germany is realising that it’s long term future lies at the western end of a vast Eurasian trading bloc. Now that would be a way of pulling in the European countries without expending a lot of blood and treasure. The EU could be a part of that, though I think the leadership is too far gone to consider that a realistic proposition.

      What’s your perspective, assuming the entertain the possibility that is what could be happening?

    63. John Main says:

      @Ruby 1:12

      Good post.

      You should try “Whisky From Small Glasses” by the same author. Let us know if you have already read it and we can discuss. If not, I won’t spoil it for you.

      He’s no P. D. James, that’s undeniable, but streets ahead of Val McDermid in my opinion.

    64. Breeks says:

      Ian Brotherhood says:
      6 November, 2022 at 12:28 pm

      ‘What’s the root cause of the US proxy war in Uk**ine? Most people don’t have a clue. Let me explain…

      Some of that is valid I think, but I don’t agree with all of it.

      While it’s the same Neo-Liberal philosophy, and yes, maybe it is interdependent, I’m not convinced the EU and US are joined at the hip.

      I think Europe’s “dependency” on the US comes from defence, and it’s really NATO where the US becomes indispensable. No NATO, no serious defence.

      I think another variable is likely to be the USA’s capacity to wage war. If the rest of the World suddenly isn’t bound to the dollar, and who knows, with Trump coming back and apparently 200+ Republican’s running for Office convinced American Democracy is a fraud, then the USA might have plenty going on in it’s own backyard to worry about Europe and Chin.

      I just can’t see a War, any war, going nuclear. At least, not deliberately. It’s the threat of the bogeyman we hear about, because otherwise it’s game over for everybody.

      But I very much can see a 1920’s style Great Depression in the West if we’re not careful. And while threat of nuclear war might be overstated, I think a 1920’s style Great Depression will actually be much worse than the 1920’s.

      For a start, we are all consumers. Town dwellers dependent on cars. People are soft. We don’t cope with things, fix things or know how to improvise. Half the stuff we buy nowadays can’t even be fixed. Virtually none of us have gardens or allotments which can be turned over to food production, and worse, we have a population which wouldn’t know where to begin planting stuff for subsistence and having the patience to wait for the results. Who’s going to teach people?

      Our shoes and clothes now fall apart when they’re done or worn out, so sewing machines and knitting needles will be in great demand…

      A funny true story comes to mind… I once went to Chin* on holiday, and a mate who was out there said travel light, don’t bring luggage, you can buy everything you need out there and it costs peanuts. Brilliant! My kinda place.

      Problem was, my mate was built like a 10 stone packet of crisps, and I was a 19 stone ex prop forward built like van that delivered the crisps. Not grossly podgy, but I probably could have lost a couple of pounds if I’d known I was going to Lilliput…

      Anyway, buy a new wardrobe? I couldn’t even find a tee-shirt to fit. Fit? I couldn’t even get my head through the neck hole, nevermind shorts, shoes etc.. Suddenly traveling light didn’t seem such a great idea. What was I to do? Buy a tent to run about in like Demos Roussos?

      So a plan was hatched to visit a tailor, and get some made to measure shorts and a couple of tee-shirt-ish thingies. The tailor was fantastic, fast, and yeah, it was cheap, but in all the photies it looks like my mates took along their sensible grandad along for the adventure; a plain clothes holiday maker who’d wear a shirt and tie to the beach.

      What kind of pinstripe would you like on your tee-shirt? Eh…

      And if you thought that was funny… “Aye, don’t bother bringing a motorcycle helmet… But that’s another story.

      Anyway… I reckon 20 years from now, it might be visitors to the West travelling light and buying cheap clothes in back street tailors.

      That’s IF we don’t get our act together with Indy….

    65. Shaking My Head says:

      It’s not difficult to understand Sturgeon’s motivations. She is a closeted lesbian looking after the interests of her sexual minority chums. Very simple. If that intrudes on anybody else’s rights…tough luck. The lady’s not for turning.

    66. John Main says:

      @Stuart MacKay

      Somebody, can’t recall who, said that the history of Europe is the history of Germany and Russia. All else is footnotes.

      An article last week on Unherd was making the point that just about everybody falls into the trap of thinking that in any complex multi-variable problem, you can change one variable without changing many of the others. For example, this time last year, NATO and the EU were fractious and dithering, which offered Vlad a great chance to invade. He invaded, and as a result, NATO and the EU are for now, a lot less fractious and dithering.

      As for Germany cosying up with China, they already have done to a certain extent. Plenty of stuff you buy nowadays has German labels on, but “made in PRC” when you read the small print, especially automotive parts. To me it makes no sense to double down on an approach that has already failed – Germany became reliant on Russti energy, and found itself held hostage as a result. If it intends to be reliant on Chinese manufacturing capacity, or minerals, the same problem will arise.

      Russti doesn’t need 404, just as China doesn’t need Taiwan. Both countries have supreme leaders who have personal ambitions very different to their country’s national needs. Both countries would prosper very much more by peaceful trade with their former possessions than by bloody and enormously destructive wars with/over them.

      Yet the human tragedy is that individuals can and do force countries to act against their best interests.

      My perspective? Last year, COP 26 was the high point for the idea that the looming worldwide apocalypse might be solved by cooperative international action and sacrifice. Russti was first to break ranks by deciding, fuck that, we’ll just take what we want. China could be next. I can’t predict if the world will continue on this trajectory, but if it does, the downwards velocity will ramp up very quickly.

      Then we’re all screwed.

    67. James Che says:

      Shaking my Head.

      Ehmmm, but that does not explain the amount of politicians and lawyers that bring children into the equation for nothing more than abuse of children,

      It also does not explain why so many men have suddenly they are women with penises and a bit of make up.

      If they are claiming they are notthe same gender as men,then equally so they are not actually born the same as female girls and women.

      If indeed they are inbetweeners neither one nor the other as can be seen from their need to self Identify by nothing other than public proclaimation.

      Then I self Identify as a sovereign person living in a independent Scotland, it has the same scientific basis,
      And I will live my live accordingly.

    68. Republicofscotland says:

      “I’m sure you have signed up to the Edinburgh Proclamation already but if not, it’s on salvo.scot and liberation.scot.”

      Thanks Sarah.

      I have signed it, and I receive e mails from Salvo.

      WE need to show the UN C24, the Special Committee on Decolonisation, that Scotland is treated as a colony even though it’s a country.

    69. Andy Ellis says:

      @John Main

      @Rab Davis 12:04

      Why do you capitalise “wanker”? It’s not a proper noun.

      Study my posts to learn how to do things right. ATM, you’re leaving the impression you are barely literate, and that impresses nobody.

      I think the “barely” is probably over generous. It’s interesting that the low lives who resort to such vulgar abuse never seemed to get called out for it by the usual suspects, moonhowlers and BPHB, huh?

      One might almost think they were complicit in lowering the tone of the place.

    70. James Che says:

      Neale Hanvey,

      On the presumption that you will read some of the commenters responses on here.

      Have you ever asked yourself where is the date that can be researched as historic that the Scots were asked to join in 1707 treaty of union?

      On the UK parliament site 2022, it states, that the Scots were not asked the question as they would probably vote No to joining.

      Remembering that the Claim of Right was prior to the 1707 treaty of the union, making the Scots sovereign.

      If you could possibly find the date Scots were actually asked if they wanted to join the treaty of union with your broader access to information that would be much appreciated.

    71. sarah says:

      @ Republicofscotland: I was sure you had signed the Edinburgh Proclamation!

      Over 5,000 have done so I think – just need to get those 5,000 to recruit 20 more each and then the letter can go off to the UN.

      Get the message out to friends, family, in your local paper, to your party branch – Yessers must join the liberation movement on liberation.scot [or via salvo.scot].

      NB Worryingly, Salvo’s film wasn’t allowed onto youtube yesterday. You can find it on the Indy Ninja’s twitter instead.

    72. Andy Ellis says:

      @Stuart MacKay 2.10 pm

      I know equating VP with that well-known Austrian is de rigeur in polite circles but how exactly would a country with a population of 145 million take over it’s former satellites who are now deeply hostile with a combined population of 95 million. You can’t do it militarily.

      By 1941 Germany essentially controlled most of Europe. Other than the UK, Ireland, Switzerland and Sweden were neutral and the rest were German allies or co-belligerents. Operation Barbarossa was in June 1941, and the Germans declared war on the US after Pearl Harbour in December 1941. The German population in 1939 was just shy of 80 million. The population of the USSR was 170 million.

      Perhaps Germany is realising that it’s long term future lies at the western end of a vast Eurasian trading bloc.

      Or perhaps they’re just trying to put the frighteners on Vlad? Xi knows he has Vlad over a barrel anyway: the Russian Federation is very much the junior partner to China, both in terms of size of economy and military/strategic strength. If Vlad survives at all he’ll be Mussolini to Xi’s Adolf. The Germans aren’t stupid enough to swap dependence on Moscow for dependence on Beijing, even if the latter is somewhat further away.

      What Vlad’s war teaches us is that it’s a crap idea becoming energy dependant on foreign powers, whether Eurasian or Middle Eastern, and that you can’t ever negotiate with or trust authoritarian regimes. We seem to need periodic reminders about the latter in particular, which only goes to show the truth of the aphorism that the only lesson of history is that people don’t learn the lessons of history.

      The Europeans need to centre themselves as part of a multi-polar world order, both economically and in security terms whether in partnership with the USA and others, or as a stand alone bloc. The latter entails much more integration in defence and security and in terms of “outward facing” diplomacy. I doubt most European countries are ready for that, although it may come in the long term.

      Whether an “independent” European bloc would be better than what we have currently of worse is impossible to tell however. It’d be good to think it would be less prone to the imperial over-reach of past superpowers, less prone to adventurism and military intervention, and less prone to making cosy deals with dictators and oligarchs…but who knows?

      The prospect of an Eurasian Economic Union is really just a re-hash of historic Russian claims to be “not of Europe” and an excuse to re-establish and extend Russian imperial dominance.

      I doubt many Europeans would be happy with thought of swapping what we have now for alignment with the successors of Vlad and Xi. Well…maybe a few in here would, but I doubt we could call them representative. 🙂

    73. Republicofscotland says:

      “NB Worryingly, Salvo’s film wasn’t allowed onto youtube yesterday. You can find it on the Indy Ninja’s twitter instead.”

      Sarah.

      Watched The Biggest Lie last night, is that it? This is the link for that. Not sure if YT links work in here so I’ll break it up a bit

      Just add the w w w (.) Y–T— to the below link.

      /watch?v=RhpSbjtsG_o

    74. Ruby says:

      A little twist on the tale of ‘The Three Red, White & Blue Parrots’

      Johnny Parrot squawks: Who’s a pretty boy?
      Who’s a very clever boy?

      Scooby-Drew squawks: Johnny Parrot is a very clever boy, clever boy, clever boy! Johnny Parrot! Johnny Parrot! Johnny Parrot! Moonhowlers! Moonhowlers! Moonhowlers!

    75. Republicofscotland says:

      James Che @3.04pm.

      James, The Biggest Lie at the link I provided shows clearly that the Westminster parliament lost any legitimacy in England, nevermind in the future union, when William of Orange was invited to rule, so in effect he was a conqueror first and foremost.

    76. sarah says:

      @ Republicofscotland: “The Biggest Lie” film by Salvo.

      Yeah, that’s the one. Sara Salyer’s voiceover is very listenable. I confess that I wasn’t fully concentrating on the argument but the summary at 46.23 followed by Craig Murray explaining [again] that the route to independence by a liberation movement going to the UN is the usual route, is perfectly clear.

    77. Ruby says:

      I’m having a bit of a writer’s block with

      Chastity The very flamboyant transgender parrot. Beautiful plumage!

      I’m wondering if she’ll be just ‘pining for the fjords’, ‘tired and shagged out following a prolonged squawk’ or will she be written out of the script if her ‘metabolic processes will now be ‘istory!

      Decisions! Decisions! Decisions!

      Maybe I could make ‘Chastity The very flamboyant transgender parrot’ into a ghost parrot.

      Any views?

    78. Republicofscotland says:

      Scotland isn’t listed in the 17 Non-Self-Governing Territories (10 of which fall under the UK), and the C24 was only created in 1961 of which the UK is not a current member, still with the Westminster government continually denying Scots their democratic right to choose whether to stay in or leave this union, there surely must be a strong case to show that, although Scotland is a country it is being treated as colony.

      The UK government has form on hindering those nations that seek decolonisation form it, such as the Chagos Islanders.

      “The United Kingdom has hindered the British Indian Ocean Territory from decolonization by illegally detaching the Chagos Archipelago from Mauritius.”

      And.

      ” British delegates claimed that the committee is ‘no longer relevant’ to United Kingdom Overseas Territories”

      As Sarah has said we need to approach the C24 of the UN and state our case of what is actually happening, that Westminster is denying Scots their democratic right to choose their future.

      https://www.un.org/dppa/decolonization/en/c24/members

      https://www.un.org/dppa/decolonization/en/c24/about

      https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Special_Committee_on_Decolonization#:~:text=The%20United%20Nations%20Special%20Committee%20on%20the%20Situation,is%20exclusively%20devoted%20to%20the%20issue%20of%20decolonization.

    79. sarah says:

      @ Republicofscotland:

      Re Scotland’s status with the UN, I think Scotland is registered as a country at the UN although not, as Craig points out, as a nation state.

      It occurs to me to wonder if England’s status with the UN is the same as Scotland’s. I presume that it is. I don’t know whether this has any implications in the event of Scotland declaring that it withdraws from the Treaty of Union – but I suspect that it would in regard to the question as to whether either country can claim to be a successor state to the UK.

    80. John Main says:

      @Ruby 4:31

      I’m thinking what a lot of readers on here are thinking – you don’t have the intellect or ability to take your Three Parrots idea anywhere interesting or amusing.

      It’s not a ghost parrot you need, it’s a ghost writer.

    81. John Main says:

      @Andy Ellis 3:17

      It is all quite predictable. Any new thread can get to about 50 comments before the self-discipline of the usual suspects gives out and they revert to default.

      As you say, if the intention is to chase decent Scots away, it is working. I can think of, and no doubt you can too, decent, reasonable posters who have dropped out.

      But, as a poster further up the thread wrote, this site remains a priceless resource for the posting of Indy content that would otherwise never see the light of day. There is nothing wrong with BTL that some light-touch moderation could not fix.

    82. James Che says:

      Republicofscotland.

      I totally agree,

      There is something squint and not quite right about the whole set up of the Treaty of union, from start to finish,
      I wish more people would question the setup.

      I will be sporadic on here for a while, I want to keep in touch with what is happening in the grass roots of the independence movement on REV STUs site,
      However my mum just passed away this evening,

      So to all those here fight the the good fight when I not up to it, and do the research, ask the questions they try stir us away from.

      Love and peace to everyone.

    83. Andy Ellis says:

      ….the C24 was only created in 1961 of which the UK is not a current member, still with the Westminster government continually denying Scots their democratic right to choose whether to stay in or leave this union, there surely must be a strong case to show that, although Scotland is a country it is being treated as colony.

      Should be a shoe-in for Alf Baird and his muckers to convince the C24 that Scotland is indeed a colony: current membership includes those progressive beacons of self determination and decolonisation China, the Russian Federation, Ethiopia, the Syrian Arab Republic, Iraq and the Islamic Republic of Iran.

      I mean…it’s not as if any of them have any domestic self determinations issues is it….?

      As Sarah has said we need to approach the C24 of the UN and state our case of what is actually happening, that Westminster is denying Scots their democratic right to choose their future.

      Isn’t the C24 just likely to say that the Scottish people not having the political bollocks to put an “X” on a ballot doesn’t equate to being colonised?

      They’ll only accept that we’re being denied our self determination to the extent that consent to include us on the list of non-self governing territories when we convince them that we’ve exhausted all other routes, and that we have a clear majority in favour of independence.

      All Westminster has to do at present is say: “We’re not denying them the right to have a vote, we’re just saying now is not the time, and anyway polls show they don’t represent a majority of Scots, and they don’t currently have a specific mandate for independence, only for a referendum but that has to be mutually agreed”.

      Absolutely nothing will happen as a result of any reference to the UN or C24 absent some escalation on the part of the yoons by which they refuse to negotiate in good faith, or use violence or legal obstruction which is clearly seen as illegitimate.

      At present, nobody in the international community will accept that Westminster saying “now is not the time” is grounds for UDI or some “cunning plan for indy” route that can’t clearly demonstrate we’ve exhausted the other options and have an irrefutable mandate.

    84. Andy Ellis says:

      @John Main 5.33 pm

      There is nothing wrong with BTL that some light-touch moderation could not fix.

      Sadly I think that ship sailed long since.

    85. James Che says:

      I think now is not the time looks pretty thin as a excuse. When it is year on year,

    86. Ruby says:

      https://wingsoverscotland.com/safeguarding-is-universal/#comment-2709689

      Oh-oh! Wanker Main doesn’t like my story about ‘The Three Red White & Blue Parrots’

    87. John Main says:

      @Ruby 5:58

      Nobody likes it, Ruby. Nobody thinks it is clever or amusing.

      It’s an interesting idea, with potential, and in competent hands, it could be made to fly.

      But not by you, you lack the ability.

      Anyhoo, I have once again validated your pathetic existence by responding to your posts. Take that as a win with my sympathy and blessing.

    88. Republicofscotland says:

      “It occurs to me to wonder if England’s status with the UN is the same as Scotland’s. I presume that it is”

      I would agree with that, simply because it’s the UK that’s the member not just England. I would suspect that England would be the continuing UN state, because of the UK’s UN Security Council membership, that in my opinion would ultimately rest with Westminster, and ergo England, and off the record I’d say that the P5 pride themselves in having nuclear weapons, it may even be an unspoken prerequisite.

      However, since Scotland meets UN criteria, I see no reason why on the dissolution of the union, that Scotland could not continue as a UN member, as Scotland was/is part of the UK a UN founding member.

    89. Republicofscotland says:

      “All Westminster has to do at present is say: “We’re not denying them the right to have a vote, we’re just saying now is not the time, ”

      QED.

      The above proves the point.

    90. Republicofscotland says:

      James Che.

      Sorry to hear that your mum has passed away, of course we understand if you don’t post regularly for a while take care.

    91. James Che says:

      Republicofscotland.
      Sarah.
      How or who is recognised as the UK parliament for the UN is curious, and I presume would exclude Scotland any way,

      Scotland does not have a treaty with the UK parliament,
      nor does it have a treaty with the British parliament.

      Scotland has its treaty with the Old England parliament 1706.

      Scotlands parliament does not exist since 1707 according to the UK parliament site in 2022.
      So WHO does England hold a Treaty of Union WITH IF NOT Scotlands old Parliament.

      The UN might be confused as the Scots.

    92. James Che says:

      Republicofscotland.

      Thank you for you’re condolences,
      I don’t think it has hit home yet. As we were down visiting her yesterday and although she was on morphine she was laughing and joking with all the family,

      I live a few hours away, so my sisters and one of my brothers were with her when she passed away late today.

      Just numb at the moment.

      Once again thank you for your kindness.

    93. sarah says:

      @ James Che: take care. Losing a mother is not quickly recovered from.

    94. Ruby says:

      https://wingsoverscotland.com/safeguarding-is-universal/comment-page-1/#comment-2709697

      Oh dear Wanker Main is not happy!

      How do you know nobody likes it?

    95. Rab Davis says:

      Ruby

      Ignore the jealous rants of the Wiki Wanker Main/Ellis.

      He can’t seem to reply to anybody without the usual copy and paste straight out of the pages of Wikipedia.

      He is a Wiki Wanker.

      You on the other hand have potential,,, move over J K Rowling,,,Ruby is Scotland’s new Bard.

    96. Tom Kane says:

      James Che, very sorry for your loss.

    97. Dan says:

      @ James Che

      Thoughts are with you and family.

    98. Breeks says:

      James Che says:
      6 November, 2022 at 7:03 pm

      Thank you for you’re condolences…

      Sorry to hear that too.

    99. George Ferguson says:

      @James Che 5:43pm
      I am sorry to hear of the passing of your Mum. I offer you my condolence. You will get back on the Indy horse when the time is right for you.

    100. moixx says:

      James Che, sorry to hear your sad news.

    101. Andy Ellis says:

      @RoS

      QED.

      The above proves the point.

      No, it doesn’t. It does the opposite.

      Westminster saying: “Now is not the time, and you don’t have the right to dictate terms under which a referendum is held, but we have no selfish interest in holding Scots in the union against their will, as long as you go through an agreed process and show us clear majority” will hole any cunning plan for indy below the water line.

      For the “Wah, Scotland is a puir wee colony, we cannae do it ‘cus the Sassenachs are hauden us doon!” line to work we’d have to show the international community Westminster was saying: “No, never under any circumstances”.

      Getting us accepted by the international community (still less the C240 as a case of colonialism or being a non-self governing territory will take way the fuck longer than just winning a plebiscitary election.

    102. Wally Jumblatt says:

      I thought Sturgeon liked losing, so she can blame the mysogynists opposing her and wail against the injustice. Losing is better than winning and then making the almighty Kanga’s Penoose of implementation that she and her ‘government’ usually does.
      If she bullies the GRRRRR vote in Holyrood and it then gets overturned in London, that’s win, win in Sturgeon’s eyes.

    103. Scott says:

      Ellis really is a stoopid cunt.

      Westminster doesn’t own Union with England Act 1707, the Scots do.

      Westminster doesn’t own Union with Scotland Act 1706, the monarch does via the sisted English Parliament.

      Scotland Act shenanigans at UKSC can’t stop me, Ellis or anyone else from starting a petition which can be presented to the monarch, parliament and the Court of Session.

      Suing UK Parliament for breaches of an international treaty and ratifying Act in the Court of Session would be an interesting event, if it were to happen.

    104. Andy Ellis says:

      Scotland Act shenanigans at UKSC can’t stop me, Ellis or anyone else from starting a petition which can be presented to the monarch, parliament and the Court of Session.

      If it’s so simple, why hasn’t anybody done it? Oh, that’s it…it’s because you’re delusional, off-his-meds heid the ba’ that’s talking out his arse…..

    105. wull says:

      Very sorry to hear about your loss, James Che. Take care. Condolences.

    106. George Ferguson says:

      @Wally Jumblatt 9:13pm
      Only in her imagination will this result be a win for her. Everybody else knows the outcome. How much money, resource and effort will it take to stop the madness?. A lot I suspect but it will be forthcoming. They will be defeated in the end because Scotland is a socially Conservative country. I am of the opinion that J K Rowling is a feminist and Nicola is destroying the rights of my female granddaughters. Only one Victor here.

    107. Dorothy Devine says:

      James Che,so sorry to hear your news,you have had a hard time -take care

    108. Scott says:

      Fuck off Ellis.

      Vienna Convention on the Conduct of Referendums includes a bit about referendums held at the request of a section of the population.

      You are clueless about Scots law, and the rights we enjoy as Scots.

      I suggested you as organiser of a petition or private referendum, but you obviously wouldn’t want to be associated with something that exists as a birthright, which pre-dates the union, to all born & birth registered here. Court of Session would rule on effect of the outcome, not WM or yer Yank palcunts.

      UDI will be accepted by the ‘international community’ if Scottish Parliament chooses to repeal UwEA1707, because withdrawing from a treaty is a matter for the signatories individually.

      In Scotland the people not in Parliament are sovereign. We hire the insiders to do a job for the benefit of the common good, not to screech at us. They are a collective body. Party politics via WM legislation is unlawful in Scotland because loyalty to ANYTHING OUTSIDE THE CHAMBER IS TO BE KEPT THERE.

      SNP hitting out with a gold standard route are talking out their hoops. Angus Robertson studied International Relations anaw, and he’s also a crackpot. FM lies constantly.

      Would you like anything else?

    109. Brian Doonthetoon says:

      Hi James Che.

      I feel for your loss of your Mum.

      I suffered the same in 1999, two years before my Dad gave up the fight.

    110. Robert Hughes says:

      ” Yank palcunts ” – hahahahaha . Brilliant , Scottyboy

    111. Brian Doonthetoon says:

      I should also type that both my Mum and Dad voted Tory/Progressive until I converted them to SNP in the 1980s.

      Will we ever be able to forgive the SNP for letting us down in the struggle for independence, while they pursue their unmandated policies?

      I’m depressed. The future of Scotland appears to be in the hands of autocratic maniacs.

    112. Robert Hughes says:

      ” Will we ever be able to forgive the SNP for letting us down in the struggle for independence, while they pursue their unmandated policies? ”

      No . Not THIS SNP anyway . Can it be redeemed ? I doubt it , the rot has gone too deep . The Murrell/Sturgeon Axis have poisoned the well . Let them drink from it

    113. twathater says:

      TBQH Robert Hughes and BDTT why would anyone want to forgive the current snp for anything they have done in the last 8 years , their governance has been abysmal , they have excelled at FAILURE ,as Breeks wrote earlier EVERYTHING sturgeon has touched or had a hand in has turned to shit . We thought Labour were corrupt , liars , and grossly incompetent in governance sturgeon has surpassed even their pathetic record

      Many have commented on Jack the Lad’s returned £1.5 billion pounds to WM because he couldn’t find anything in Scotland to spend it on , sturgeon has flown past even that feat in one action to auction off our seabed to corporate pirates , that doesn’t even include the lying failed promises including a national energy company

      TBQH the reason sturgeon has gotten away with her destruction of Scotland is due to the unreasonable protection she was afforded by her membership and other diehard indy supporters, even on here any dissent or criticism of the sainted one was given short shrift , and when the Rev posted the BETRAYER article the outrage from the disciples was palpable, THAT is why the exodus of the diehard cult found sanctuary over on paypal pauls site where the egos could be stroked BUT at a price , the TRUTH was like sunlight to a vampire

    114. Scott says:

      “Oh fuck off you silly cunt” – Rev Stuart Campbell

      https://wingsoverscotland.com/the-betrayer/comment-page-2/#comment-2514794

      Roon ye, Ellis.

    115. Andy Ellis says:

      @”Scott” 11.15 pm

      Would you like anything else?

      A long period of silence from you banging on about unicorns and stuff you pulled out of yer arse would be good.

      If you want to petition our way to independence, on you go. Don’t expect others to do the hard work for you or to validate your illusion for you. If it were as straightforward as you blithely assert, it’s passing strange nobody has done it already. One might almost think it’s because you’re living a wee world of your own.

    116. Andy Ellis says:

      @”Scott” 2.54 am

      And your point is caller…? What’s the article link got to do with anything?

      Ah…I see…2.54am posting: always a red flag even from some one as generally unbalanced as you “Scott”. Did your carer get the meds wrong again….?

    117. Rab Davis says:

      So summing up,,,

      Wanker Main/Ellis is a wee effeminate English Cunt who knows nothing about anything?

      Sounds about right.

    118. Ruby says:

      Scott says:
      7 November, 2022 at 2:54 am

      “Oh fuck off you silly cunt” – Rev Stuart Campbell

      https://wingsoverscotland.com/the-betrayer/comment-page-2/#comment-2514794

      Roon ye, Ellis.

      Andy Ellis says:
      7 November, 2022 at 7:59 am

      @”Scott” 2.54 am

      And your point is caller…? What’s the article link got to do with anything?

      Dah! Ellis doesn’t get it! The point is the Rev isn’t going to pay any attention to multiple emails complaining about ‘cunt calling’

      The chances of him replying to Ellis’s multiple emails by saying
      “Oh fuck off you silly cunt” are pretty high!

    119. Ruby says:

      https://archive.ph/8H54Z

      Schools ‘safer than home’ for pupils to explore gender, says Glasgow trans councillor

      Are teachers/parents OK with this or are their concerns not valid.

      How come this Green councillor is referred to as a trans councillor? Is that not a hate crime?

      Why would any teacher agree to not telling parents about such a serious issue.

      Your child being trans means they face a lifetime on heavy duty drugs and a number of very serious operations.

      Who is going to buy them the appropriate clothes for their gender? Will the school have clothes for them to wear while exploring their gender while at school?

      Everything to do with this ‘gender recognition’ is completely mad!

    120. Dorothy Devine says:

      Not just mad Ruby but dangerous.

      I would hope that parents are well aware of what is going on in education and elsewhere – the distortion of biology should be headline news and every lurid tale too.

      “invalid” – the FM is now and forever INVALID to me.

    121. Andy Ellis says:

      @Ruby

      A more balanced person without your verbal tic of repetitive cunt calling would be able to discern the difference between Rev Stu’s occasional and appropriate use of invective, and low lives like you peppering your intellectually low voltage contributions with such language every half a dozen words. Yw/hth.

    122. Scott says:

      Andy Ellis says:
      7 November, 2022 at 9:06 am

      @Ruby

      A more balanced person without your verbal tic of repetitive cunt calling would be able to discern the difference between Rev Stu’s occasional and appropriate use of invective

      What would you know about being balanced?

      Waddle back to Cornhill, ya freak.

    123. John Main says:

      Great stuff loons and quines.

      I though maybes a wee, temporary halt in the hair pulling and eye gouging might be in order, due to the personal posts on this thread.

      You ken what I mean, the sort of quiet respect that any decent Scot used to have ingrained in them as part of our shared culture.

      24 hours too much to ask?

    124. Rab Davis says:

      So summing up,,,

      Wanker Main/Ellis is a wee effeminate English Cunt who knows nothing about anything?

      Sounds about right…

    125. Ebok says:

      Andy Ellis says:

      ‘Ah…I see…2.54am posting: always a red flag …’

      Are there … conventional … hours to post, Andy?

      It’s just that I’ve noticed your predilection for abusing those who post after … midnight?.

    126. Andy Ellis says:

      You ken what I mean, the sort of quiet respect that any decent Scot used to have ingrained in them as part of our shared culture.

      There’s nothing quietly respectful about the usual suspects in here, nor do we share cultural values with dregs like them who are a stain on the movement as a whole not just on this place.

      As you pointed out yourself a modicum of light touch moderation would see off the worst offenders, but absent that moonhowler whack a mole will still be required. 🙂

    127. Andy Ellis says:

      Are there … conventional … hours to post, Andy?
      It’s just that I’ve noticed your predilection for abusing those who post after … midnight?.

      It’s surely unexceptional to point out that there just might be a causal link between the low life cunt callers and abusers and the prediction of many to post in the wee small hours?

      Whether it’s posting in to rot cups, or on a come down after their last fix, or waiting on the next one….who knows? It’s not really an excuse of course, but as others have pointed out if they don’t like being confronted them they should desist from starting it, whatever hours they keep.

      The moon did look pretty full last night right enough, so there is that….. 🙂

    128. Scott says:

      Andy Ellis says:
      7 November, 2022 at 11:13 am

      It’s surely unexceptional to point out that there just might be a causal link between the low life cunt callers and abusers and the prediction of many to post in the wee small hours?

      And therein lies Ellis’s problem./b>

      The daft cunt spends too much time trying to imagine (fantasising about) the lives we lead – he may even have sketched images as part of his constant paranoia driven game of Guess Who?

      He thinks retired people should still keep office hours – I like sleeping when my body tells me it needs that state of rest.

      He pretends people he doesn’t know are lower in class than he is.

      He pretends he’s the only clever in the village.

      He pretends he isn’t a lonely, washed-up, narcissistic old cunt that can’t get it up.

      He pretends to have friends.

      He pretends to support the full independence of Scotland & Scots law.

      yw,hth

    129. Ebok says:

      @Scott
      That’s unkind.
      Even though Andy, too, has made posts ‘in the wee small hours’, it is not necessarily Pot/kettle/black?
      I remember well a post he made around 1.30 am, soon after pouring scorn on another poster for a similar timestamp a day or so earlier. Mind you, as I recall, he was having a meltdown that evening, so perhaps that could be an explanation rather than a ‘causal link’.

      He is renowned for his work in trying to educate lackwits like me, working up to 100 hrs a week, calling it voluntary. He may be mistaken with that description as it seems to this lackwit to be more like an obsession: ‘the phrase often carries the disparaging implication that the possessor of such a mind stubbornly resists any consideration of alternative viewpoints. He must continually fight what he sees as the righteous fight’

      This is a huge burden for Andy to carry however, and being unloved, unpaid, with little support, I worry for our resident guru should the workload impact on his health.

    130. Hatuey says:

      Sorry to hear about your mother passing away, James Che. That’s sad. Hang in there.

    131. Rab Davis says:

      Re: Ellis/Main disruptions.

      This site hasn’t seen such activity since the days of “SensibleDave”.

      Did one name disappear and these new names appear?

      Same pain in the dick M.O.

    132. Rab Davis says:

      And I remember Wings used to have a very vibrant “night shift”.

    133. Rev. Stuart Campbell says:

      Closing comments on this post due to the inability of certain people to take a fucking telling about personal attacks.

      If you want to abuse each other like children, do it in Off Topic where nobody cares. If it happens in future on normal posts, comments will be closed after one day, or perhaps altogether. I’m more sick of it than I can begin to express.

      “Whether it’s posting in to rot cups, or on a come down after their last fix, or waiting on the next one….who knows?”

      I keep pretty unusual hours by most people’s standards. I go to bed around 3am most nights and get up around 10am. Got a problem with that? Is it okay if I post stuff after midnight?

    134. Rev. Stuart Campbell says:

      “If Joanna Cherry had any sense of honour and self respect, she would have left the SNP a long time ago.”

      We need there to be SOMEONE left in the SNP for sane people to coalesce around if and when Sturgeon finally gets her just deserts.






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