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Out of the quagmire

Posted on January 14, 2019 by

UK politics is stuck fast in the mud, going nowhere, and the casualties are mounting. Whether on Brexit, independence or anything else, we’ve all become so dug-in to our positions that some people – naming no names – have forgotten where the battle lines are or what their political war was even about in the first place.

For 30 months now, the Yes movement has been trying to answer the question of how to get a second indyref. The SNP has a triple-locked democratic mandate based on Scotland being dragged out of the EU against the will of its people, but as strong a moral argument as that is it unfortunately runs straight into a brick wall of reality: the constitution is reserved to Westminster.

Equally we’re consumed by the ongoing Brexit trainwreck, which has no apparent escape route from a poisonous stalemate paralysing the UK’s politicians and leaving nobody in control as the country heads for some very hard buffers.

As the self-imposed Brexit deadline looms, Theresa May is running out of options. Her deal is a dead duck. When it inevitably fails, there are two possible scenarios: a second EU referendum of some sort (nobody can agree what the options would be), or a general election.

Neither the Tories nor Labour want another referendum because both parties want Brexit to happen, so another election is the more likely. But all the polls suggest it would deliver much the same hung parliament as we have now, solving nothing.

Last week, SNP MP Joanna Cherry QC gave a speech to a diverse pro-Europe group that includes former Green leader Caroline Lucas, pro-indy commentator Lesley Riddoch and Tory MP Dominic Grieve. And as she waxed lyrical, with a twinkle in her eye Cherry slipped in reference to a hitherto-undiscussed plan that offers an escape route for everyone.

As we’ve seen over the past two years, the SNP have been systematically shut out of Westminster debate and lawmaking in the House of Commons. But behind the scenes the party has been seeking like-minded allies across all parties. Ms Cherry and her band are proposing a plan which would radically reshape the political battlefield.

In order to call a general election now, the Tories would have to invoke one of the two mechanisms in the Fixed Term Parliament Act. One of those, a two-thirds majority, isn’t going to happen. But the other mechanism has a really interesting provision; if a vote of no confidence in the government is passed (by simple majority) then a general election will be held unless a new government can be formed within two weeks and a vote of confidence in it passes.

What this means is that Labour, the SNP, the Lib Dems, Greens, Plaid and some disgruntled Tories could form a new unity government – a cross-party administration like the National Government of WW2 – without a general election. And at a single, perfectly feasible, stroke that would change everything.

Such a unity government could – thanks to the case successfully argued by Ms Cherry and her allies in the European Court of Justice – unilaterally revoke Article 50, thereby keeping the whole UK in the EU. However that’s probably an unrealistic hope, unless public opinion on Brexit shifts quite a few more points towards Remain in the coming weeks.

A more plausible outcome might be a softer Brexit where the UK stays in the customs union and the single market, while still satisfying the result of the 2016 referendum. (Which, remember, didn’t specify any particular type of Brexit.)

Anyway, these things would be up for debate and discussion – the key point for independence supporters is that in return for the support of the SNP’s bloc of 35 MPs, which would almost certainly hold the balance of power, the National Government would have to grant key new powers to the Scottish Parliament, such as control over immigration and the Section 30 powers to hold a new independence referendum.

Ladies and gentlemen, start your engines.

Obviously this hypothetical scenario has a lot of moving parts, but what Joanna Cherry and her companions have done is found a way past two seemingly-impassable barricades: securing a new indyref in line with the democratic mandate of the Scottish Parliament, and potentially saving the rest of the UK from a disastrous no-deal Brexit (or a civil war) into the bargain. It’s a brilliant piece of political manoeuvring.

But before we get ahead of ourselves, just how viable is this scenario? First of all we’d have to convince Labour to play ball, and thus far Corbyn hasn’t shown any inclination to work with the SNP, seemingly more ready to deal with the DUP.

But if the current polls are to be believed, if Theresa May does indeed call a general election before Brexit, Corbyn is almost certainly sunk. Would he really repeat Ed Miliband’s mistake and deliver the entire UK into the hands of a shambolic, cut-throat Tory party for a generation? (Labour would tear itself apart in the recriminations.) Perhaps, but he almost certainly wouldn’t survive as leader in such circumstances, and his dream of a glorious socialist revolution would be dead forever.

His best shot at being Prime Minister is now as part of a rainbow coalition including the SNP. He could use a relatively short unity government’s term in Number 10 to deliver real change in the UK and consolidate his support without fatally alienating the large number of Labour Leave voters in the north of England, perhaps resulting in a Labour majority in a future England and Wales general election.

The rather thornier problem might be getting some Tories to vote for this. But let’s not underestimate the crisis in the Tory party. Believe it or not, there are some good Tory MPs who believe that defying their own party is a price worth paying if it saves the UK from a devastating no-deal Brexit.

But perhaps more importantly, if Theresa May’s government falls, then it lets the Tories off the hook for Brexit. They could blame whatever the outcome is on the cross-party government – and therefore primarily Labour – thus avoiding the stigma and electoral wilderness that looms large if Brexit goes badly, as it definitely will on the current path.

Theresa May has always been a lame duck Prime Minster, stayed from execution only as long as she could carry the can for Brexit. If she goes, the party has an opportunity to reinvent itself. If Labour can be persuaded to back the Cherry plan, there’s a good chance that enough Tory rebels – only a small handful would be needed – will join it either out of a sense of duty to the country or simple self-preservation.

But what of the SNP itself? Cherry’s speech sparked furious online debate in the Yes movement, with many members expressing deep discomfort with the idea of the SNP propping up a Westminster government of any flavour.

That, however, is a self-defeating argument. We’re stuck in Westminster for now, so we have to try to make it work for us. We need to see past the current constitutional and party political arguments and remember why most of us got into this game in the first place: Scottish independence and the lasting societal change it would deliver.

Rather than focusing on the arguments of the past, a National Government would allow us to redraw the battle lines and obtain our goal by other means. It would end the costly, bitter stalemate of trench warfare, put a huge meaningful power in the hands of the Scottish Parliament, and remove the Tories from power in as little as two months.

And that’s a result worth fighting for.

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    886 to “Out of the quagmire”

    1. geeo says:

      More utter pish from Lochside.

      You DO know that any SNP support for this ‘people’s vote’ (as opposed to the badgers who voted last time…) has ALREADY been caveated, in that, either, any 2nd EU vote MUST have a 4 country veto, as proposed last time by Scotsgov.

      Or, going further, in fact, if Scots vote to remain and England votes leave again, then Scotland does not brexit at all and England is free to do so.

      What Scotsgov will not agree to, is a like for like re run of the 2016 vote.

      So your argument on that, is a phoney one.

      Perhaps you missed this caveat, or didn’t, but it does not suit your narrative ?

    2. Thepnr says:

      @Lenny Hartley

      “Thepnr, im not so sure if there is another EU Referendum remain will win”

      Nothing is ever certain but have you payed attention to all these EU polls in recent months? Put it this way try checking the price for another Leave victory if there was a second vote at the bookies.

      I reckon you’d be throwing money away but that means nothing of course as it’s just my opinion.

      Have you ever considered though that the UK electorate got the vote “wrong” the first time around and that now it’s just being corrected? Hahaha another conspiracy 🙂

      To be honest I wouldn’t dismiss it either LOL.

    3. call me dave says:

      Ah! Blackford on Sky tv live.

      Jings! Appealing to the DUP to vote with Labour & SNP tomorrow.

      Theresa not likely to survive this….Really? 🙂

      Sees Scotland soon as an Independent country in Europe.

    4. Thepnr says:

      @One_Scot

      ‘Remain will win, so where does that leave Scotland?’

      “Still in the EU and no worse off than we started. Scottish Independence was never about the EU”

      Thanks for that and I’m fully in agreement, the point of my question was to seek some views, the reason being I really believe we had better start looking at where the Independence movement goes “If” we remain in the EU.

      The chances of which I’d already estimated at 45%,once Corby loses tomorrow staying in the EU becomes the most likely outcome by far. We need to consider that possibility.

      Not really difficult to see now why Nicola Sturgeon was wise to wait and see “until the Brexit outcome is clear” is it?

    5. Lenny Hartley says:

      Thenpr, all the poolsi have seen have been reasonably close, only when you start asking questions which aimt gonna be asked in any referendum do you see any real divergence. Anyways there aint gonna be a 2nd poll. Think you will find it will be a hard Brexit , its what they have been playing for all along. If you dont think so why have thry been kicking the can down the road for two years, the deal she got could have been sorted in months, theres a reason they have taken it to the brink and it wasnt to get the deal that Parliament just rejected.

    6. Rock says:

      While we await the return of the Rev. Stuart Campbell’s abruptly pulled masterpiece “How to make lemonade”, let us see how the clueless pompous armchair pundits posting here, who see everything to do with Nicola and the SNP through their specially manufactured rose-tinted specs, were completely exposed:

      The Rev. Stuart Campbell (14th January – “How to make lemonade”):

      “The Scottish media have been proclaiming, and simultaneously praying for, an “SNP civil war” for longer than we can remember.”

      “But there can be little credible dispute that it’s finally got one. The party has been deeply divided by allegations made, in questionable circumstances, against its former leader Alex Salmond”

      What the “SNP civil war” deniers were saying in the last few days:

      Dave McEwan Hill says:
      13 January, 2019 at 1:38 pm

      “How’s that SNP civil war coming along? Has it been covered up?”

      No Davie, its on WOS and in The National.

      Although it seems someone has forced the Rev. to pull it.

    7. ElGordo says:

      Pure theatre.

      According to script.

      And plan.

      No deal exit in 10 weeks.

      According to law.

      Stock up.

    8. Robert J. Sutherland says:

      twathater @ 21:25:

      This […] has been encouraged throughout the centuries by ALL the unionist parties

      And not only by such, but by the Scottish Establishment in general, that – with notable rare exceptions – has been only too willing to rub along with the prevailing Unionist arrangement (a relic of the turbulences of the 17th and 18th centuries) and consequently has been reluctant to “rock the boat”.

      Ironically, that Establishment was evidently more willing to defend Scottish particularities 100 years ago than it is today, probably because back then it was much easier to do so while the Union itself was not under question. Nowadays, BritNats are highly defensive and unwilling to bend and listen. They feel the hot breath of fate on the back of their necks, and have no idea whatsoever how to meaningfully respond, other than blank denial.

    9. Terence callachan says:

      So Theresa may defeated
      A no confidence vote will occur
      Tories will rally round so will DUP
      The tories will survive in power
      Another brexit referendum
      If EU allow more time
      They probably will
      But it will still be months before we have one
      A NO deal brexit unlikely

      From the way SNP and Nicola sturgeon have played it out it now looks like Nicola sturgeon will ask us to wait until after the second brexit referendum result before deciding if another Scottish independence referendum will take place

      If remain win ,it looks like no Scottish independence referendum will take place
      I’m disappointed to say the least

      It’s no longer just being taken out of the EU that should instigate another Scottish independence referendum surely after all that has been done to Scotland this last two years it is blatantly obvious that Scotland is being treated like an English county how can the SNP and Nicola sturgeon in particular keep on playing along with this travesty

    10. Essexexile says:

      geeo @21.39
      Interesting proposals but any sources to suggest they are Scotgov strategies?
      Or just your own?

    11. Surely the only way a VONC will be won is if Tory remainers vote against the gov and also anyone who doesn’t want a No Deal Brexit.

      I believe that May thinks she can win a VONC hence she has not resigned and if she does win, then Brexit will go ahead.

      Maybe all the opposition parties need to do a sit down or a walk out – problem is the clock is ticking!

      At this rate might be indy ref call next week.

    12. Rock says:

      Ken500 says:
      15 January, 2019 at 6:30 pm

      “Sue the Law Society for damages. They dragged it on when a simple e-Mail exchanged would have suffice. Typical lawyers.”

      Rock (5th January – “Return of the boat people”):

      The “independent” Scottish justice system is rotten to the core and the vast majority of lawyers, especially judges, are the lowest of the low.

      So called “human rights lawyers” included. They trouser hundreds of thousands while people starve in Scotland.

      The Scottish judges who jailed the innocent Libyan for the Lockerbie bombing should have been jailed for life – in the absence of the death penalty.”

    13. geeo says:

      Look it up yourself, essexmissile. (Spelling intentional).

    14. Thepnr says:

      @Lenny Hartley

      I said this in my original response and seriously in my opinion it’s a possibility. Not a great one but neither can you ignore it.

      “Have you ever considered though that the UK electorate got the vote “wrong” the first time around and that now it’s just being corrected?”

      I for one have a feeling of being led up the garden path.

    15. Macart says:

      That went pretty much as expected. The result? Political chaos in the UK. I’d wish the meeja luck sorting through that, but…

      The hot takes and spin tomorrow will be a sight to behold. How and ever, what they’re looking at are two pro brexit parties vying for the big chair who have a great many members and MPs who are pro remain. A UK total population equally as divided.At least two members of the Union are vehemently pro remain and so a couple of very imminent constitutional crises and parliament in meltdown.

      What was it Fox promised about a deal with the EU ‘easiest thing in human history’? Folk were promised a great many things by Tories of all hues four years ago. Broad economic shoulders, stability, job and pension security, huge meaningful devolved powers, a parliament entrenched in the UKs constitution, a Sewell convention worth a damn. And oh yes, security of membership WITHIN the EU. A few other bits and bobs right enough, but those were the standout pledges to Scotland’s citizens.

      Westminster politicians and their promises. (shrugs)

    16. marsfries says:

      It’s either going to be 1) a crash out on March 29 with no deal or 2) an extension of Article 50 to May or July depending on how much longer the EU27 are willing to put up with this crap. Worst case scenario is that Sturgeon has to wait till the summer before she calls the next referendum. If it came to that, I’d still call it for the late autumn, say, end of October.

    17. HYUFD says:

      Thepnr If Remain won a second EUref that would of course set back the Scottish independence movement for a generation, their cause celebre, their holy grail for leaving the Union, Brexit, now lost forever. Not one poll in Scotland has anything but a comfortable lead for No in any indyref2 where the UK stays in the UK, if the Deal passes it is neck and neck, if No Deal Yes is often ahead.

      It would be an utter disaster for Yes and the SNP and a great result for Unionists if the UK voted to reverse Brexit

    18. Robert J. Sutherland says:

      Rock @ 21:51,

      The only “civil war” that’s real is the one in the Tory Party, you miserable self-serving BritNat fellow-traveller.

      And if the mentioned article was as you describe, the question is begged: why was it pulled? Just to give an opening to a pathetic little sycophant..?

    19. ronnie anderson says:

      LoL Sammy Wilson [ go back to the EU & let them come up with a plan that will work ] , so its all down to the EU to solve the conundrum is it Sammy .

    20. HYUFD says:

      Thepnr If Remain won a second EUref that would of course set back the Scottish independence movement for a generation, their cause celebre, their holy grail for leaving the Union, Brexit, now lost forever. Not one poll in Scotland has anything but a comfortable lead for No in any indyref2 where the UK stays in the EU, if the Deal passes it is neck and neck, if No Deal Yes is often ahead.

      It would be an utter disaster for Yes and the SNP and a great result for Unionists if the UK voted to reverse Brexit

    21. geeo says:

      Actually, you know what missile, just for you…just this once.

      Quoted from Guardian, so archived thus: http://archive.is/O0k4K

      “Speaking on the first day of her party’s autumn conference in Glasgow, the SNP leader and first minister also indicated her party would seek a guarantee that if Scotland voted again to remain in the EU while the rest of the UK voted to leave, it would not be forced to accept the result for a second time.

      She suggested a “double lock”, which would require the support of all four UK nations before Britain could leave the EU. The SNP’s Westminster leader, Ian Blackford, had said on Saturday that his party could support a second referendum on Brexit if there were a guarantee that Scotland could also hold another vote on independence. A YouGov poll of SNP members for the People’s Vote campaign found 79% would back a new referendum on Brexit.
      …………

      Google search took 7 seconds, and that was used up by writing in the search criteria.

      Do you want me to tell you how to google now ?

    22. ronnie anderson says:

      Nana given Junckers statement tonight there is little chance of Corbyn even entering discussions with the EU should he ever be in the position to do so .

    23. geeo says:

      Anyone thinking the EU situation is the ONLY mandate for indyref2 has not been paying attention, therefore it is no surprise to see who posted such a thing…deary me.

    24. Robert Peffers says:

      @Essexexile says: 15 January, 2019 at 1:23 pm:

      ” … Thank you. Top drawer reply. Should be pinned for future reference imo.”

      What I can only assume is that the level of assumptions among even long term indy supporters that Westminster has sovereignty over the people of Scotland serves to show just how effective the Westminster Establishment’s propaganda has been and continues to be.

      Consider the simple claims of Westminster that is just blindly accepted throughout the World, not just in the United Kingdom, that, “The United Kingdom has no written Constitution”. Simple English Language grammar exposes that as utter garbage as the constitution of the United Kingdom was plainly, “Constituted”, by the Treaty of Union and that is thus a written constitution.

      Then this is compounded by the way that the Westminster propaganda has side-lined the actual Treaty of Union and routinely always refers to The Act of Union – of which, in the first place there are factually two individual Acts of Union.

      In the second place there was no union when those individual acts were passed in two, still independent, and equally sovereign parliaments. Thus these acts were only applicable to the parliaments, and in the kingdoms that passed them.

      The purpose of each individual Act Of Parliament was for the parliament that debated, and voted for them, to accept the terms of the Treaty of Union. Which, after they passed their individual act, that parliament voted itself into recess. In the Case of the English, (Westminster), parliament it was a permanent recession but in the case of the Edinburgh Parliament the parliament was only, “Prorogued”.

      When the Holyrood Parliament was opened by Winnie Ewing that lady, a qualified lawyer, did not open a new parliament she reconvened the old Parliament of Scotland:-

      http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aiottF-df3Y

      This has never been officially queried by Westminster- ask yourself why not?

      Now consider this – The Scottish Parliament at Holyrood is the reconvened, equally sovereign, parliament of Scotland that agreed the Treaty of Union and then was prorogued.

      The, equally sovereign, Westminster Parliament of the Kingdom of England at Westminster went into permanent recess in 1707 and there has been no elected parliament of the Kingdom, or even the country, of England since that date.

      The Westminster Parliament that opened on 1 May 1707 was, and it still is, officially the joint parliament of the two, equally sovereign, kingdom’s parliaments. It is the United Kingdom Parliament. It is not the parliament of either the country or the kingdom of England.

      Yet it sits now as the, unelected as such, de facto parliament of the country of England that administers and funds the country of England directly via the Westminster ministries but has unequally devolved a few powers from those Westminster ministries to the three non-English countries of the United Kingdom and treats them as dominions of the country of England with England as the master country. Yet it still claims to be the, bipartite, United Kingdom Government with sovereignty over the other three countries.

      Yet there is no evidence that post union Westminster has ever had legal sovereignty over even the country of England that has had no elected as such government since 30 April 1707. Is it any wonder they want everyone to believe that the United Kingdom has no written constitution when obviously the Treaty of Union actually did constitute the bipartite United Kingdom and its joint parliament so is thus the Written Constitution of the United Kingdom.

    25. Rock says:

      Having squandered a once in a 1000 years golden opportunity by wasting more than a year flogging a dead horse – a separate deal for Scotland which was never going to happen, Nicola has started flogging another dead horse – a second EU referendum.

      Didn’t Scotland decisively vote Yes in the first one?

      Only the most deluded can still believe that this woman will bring independence to Scotland.

      She hasn’t got a clue – she is following events in Westminster and has been totally outsmarted.

      She should have struck when the iron was hot the day after the Brexit vote and announced something like this:

      “People of Scotland, during our independence referendum in 2014, many voters were duped into voting No by unionist lies that Scotland would be out of the EU if it voted for independence.

      It is now clear that Scotland will be forced out of the EU despite 62% of us having voted to remain.

      People, I will have to very honest with you. Scotland’s expressed wish to remain in the EU can only be fulfilled by becoming an independent sovereign nation.

      People, from today the SNP will start the process for a second independence referendum and will keep you updated at every stage.

      People, the SNP will always keep the best interests of the people of Scotland at its heart.”

    26. Pete Barton says:

      @HYUFD: ‘A great result for unionists if the UK voted to reverse Brexit’.

      Some ‘Union’ then.

      United Kingdom?

      VERY.

    27. Graf Midgehunter says:

      I’ve done the petition vote. 🙂 4212 supporters. 🙂

    28. ElGordo says:

      That’s great, how many days food supply do you have?

    29. HYUFD says:

      Pete Barton A United Kingdom in a European Union, the SNP narrative was built on little Englander Brexiteers taking Remain voting Scotland out of the EU against its will, if that is no longer the case and the UK remains in the EU then the SNP narrative disappears. Rock has got it in one, Sturgeon may well have missed her once in a generation opportunity, it could never come again

    30. Lenny Hartley says:

      Thenpr, you are forgetting that “Brexit” is linked to the EU’s Tax evasion laws which were implemented this month. that is what matters to the Tories, not Democracy.

    31. Arthur Thomson says:

      It’s all heading towards the revoking of Article 50 before or after a second EU referendum.

    32. Pete Barton says:

      Thankyou, HYUFD for your considered reasoning.

      Sturgeon is not the Scottish people, however and does not exercise sovereignty.

      This is where it gets complicated.

      You let yourself down, however with the assertion that

      ‘It could never come again’

      A good idea never stops coming..again.

      It is immortal.

    33. Dear Europe

      You must be pretty scunnered with your recent dealings with Westminster, with its colonial attitudes and overwhelming aroma of English entitlement, its lies, deceit and corruption.

      You’ve had to deal with them for two years now, we in Scotland have had to put up with this nonsense for three hundred and twelve years. Welcome to our world.

      Perhaps, with your recently acquired insight into Westminster, you will now be more hospitable and supportive to the idea of Scotland uncoupling from this clusterfuck than you seemed to be in 2014.

      Merci

    34. Ken500 says:

      Blair Labour/unionists manipulated the Scottish Legal system, to jail an innocent man. Before the SNP Gov was in power. Then withheld evidence for an appeal.

      Iraq, Lockerbie, Dunblane kept secret for 100 years.

      Why don’t they get lost with Brexit. What an absolute shambles. A total mess. Imagine voting unionist in Scotland. Beyond belief. They are still sanctioning and starving people.

      Thank goodness for the SNP Gov standing up for Scotland.

      The unionists intent on causing a world recession. The total,ignorant, incompetent, lying psycho bastards.

    35. ElGordo says:

      pouvoirs d’urgence, au revior

    36. Ken500 says:

      Just vote the unionists out, They will not be able to destroy the Scottish economy, Then another Indy Ref. Anyone voting unionist after this fiasco. Deserves all they will get. Vote No you get nothing.

    37. Robert J. Sutherland says:

      Rock @ 22:26,

      That article from which you quote, in defiance of “the owner of this site” and the laws of copyright, is no longer available, presumably for good reason. Care to speculate why?

      And care to explain why you seem to think you are above all of that…?

    38. doug_bryce says:

      Potentially May sees No-Deal as less damaging (longer term) to Tory party than No-Brexit.

      With back against wall fully expect her to keep counting down clock. Neither her, nor Corbyn, wants to be the one that finally says “lets call this brexit nonsense off”.

      Eventually back benchers may take control and delay A50. However with EU elections in May I cant imagine EU want UK hanging about for long… Plus there is no majority for where to go next…..

      A 2nd EU ref might be coming.
      However so could accidental no-deal.

    39. Robert Peffers says:

      @Blair Paterson says: 15 January, 2019 at 2:33 pm:

      ” … How is it anti English by not allowing them a vote on the future.”

      Oh! Stop talking pish, Blair.

      There is a very logical conclusion to your idiotic argument and it is this:-

      If you were to ban all English.(a term you have not defined), you must first of all define what are the factors that make someone English.

      Is it place of birth? What if a person was born on a London to Edinburgh shuttle flight? Are they Scottish or English or what if the plane was diverted to the Irish Republic due to bad weather conditions.

      Is it father or mother or maybe Grand parents place of birth?

      See here’s the problem – if you ban people who have lived their life in Scotland but were born in England because their father was serving in the navy at Portsmouth then logically you have to include those born in Scotland, perhaps even of two English, or even French or other nationals who then, as a babe in arms, went home and stayed there ever since and the say there are more people of Scots descent in London than in the whole of Scotland.

      In other words you are, as usual, talking utter pish.

    40. Bill Hume says:

      I’ve really rather enjoyed today.
      p.s. Rock…….eff off, there’s a good chap.

    41. Thepnr says:

      @Lenny Hartley

      “Thenpr, you are forgetting that “Brexit” is linked to the EU’s Tax evasion laws which were implemented this month. that is what matters to the Tories, not Democracy.”

      Sorry Lenny but that is just an assumption and not a fact. It really is just another theory and nothing more.

    42. Rock says:

      Arthur Thomson says:
      15 January, 2019 at 10:45 pm

      “It’s all heading towards the revoking of Article 50 before or after a second EU referendum.”

      Whatever happens, one thing is for sure.

      Thanks to Nicola completely blowing it, Scotland will not become independent before 2640 AD.

    43. Ghillie says:

      Whatever is yet to come out of the carry on over brexit, the case for Scotland’s Independence has gone from strength to strength.

      Since 2014 the British empire’s contempt for all things Scottish has grown and intensified and especially worsened exponentially since the whole brexit clusterburoch was birthed.

      Largely through the efforts of Nicola Sturgeon and the SNP team, the international awareness and huge love and respect for Scotland has grown too.

      The World is ready for Scotland to take her place as a normal independent nation.

      Whatever happens with brexit, most of the folk of Scotland now know that it is time for us to do just that 🙂

    44. Rock says:

      Robert Peffers says:
      15 January, 2019 at 10:53 pm

      “If you were to ban all English.(a term you have not defined), you must first of all define what are the factors that make someone English.”

      Well I know the factors that make someone “Elderly English cadgers”:

      Robert Peffers (18th February 2017 – “Here comes a surprise”)

      “The fact is that a little common sense will show that the immigrants mainly come to find work. Elderly English cadgers excepted, these who sell up expensive city homes for cheaper, or better, Scottish accommodation, free bus passes and the benefits of such as free prescriptions, care at home and cheaper Council Tax. These are often the ones most prone to call scots subsidy junkies.”

      Robert Peffers, what do you think of the right of “Elderly English cadgers” to vote in a referendum on Scottish independence from England, since it seems you are very racist against the poor old dears.

    45. Ian Mackay says:

      “It would be an utter disaster for Yes and the SNP and a great result for Unionists if the UK voted to reverse Brexit”

      If the UK voted to reverse Brexit then the SNP could take credit for helping that decision be made. It would crucify the Unionist’s charge that all SNP talk about is independence. It may even see the SNP polling and membership increase.

      Westminster ignores Scotland as a rule.

      If its not Brexit – it will be something else that will fuel the Yes vote.

      Bear in mind demographics are on the Yes side. By 2023 the No voters will be an assured minority.

      A reverse of Brexit only gives this dying Union a few more years of life support.

      Brexit gives us a chance of independence – and yes, we should take the chance if that presents – but it won’t be easy to win.

      Its not a ‘utter disaster’ for Yes. Brexit or not, independence is coming.

    46. Ken500 says:

      Another two years of this nonsense. Does not bear thinking about.

      What a stupid carry on. The unionists again. Imbeciles. Lying to get the elderly to vote for them so they can kill them off.

    47. Thepnr says:

      @Ghillie

      That felt like a BLAST of fresh air rather than a breath. Well said you. Scotland is ready to take it’s place as one of the World’s Independent nations and all we need to do now is let them know.

      So let’s do that, let them hear what the people of Scotland desire by asking them. They will shout the answer.

      THE ANSWER IS YES!!!

    48. call me dave says:

      These Labour ministers coming on the radio saying the EU will see them as credible negotiators and a deal to leave can can be done.
      Aye!

      They also say a GE is the way out of this fiasco but they have to win AVONC and they wont have enough votes.

      Remember Jeremy said he would only call for AVONC if he could win what happened to that?
      He probably got caught up in the heat of the moment and blurted it out.

      Theresa: “Did you call a code Red Jeremy?”

      Jeremy: “Your FFnn right I called a code re….er umm!” 🙂

    49. schrodingers cat says:

      @Meg merrilees

      you are correct, only the tories or the dup can stop a no deal brexit happening, simple arithmetic.

      thing is, it appears treeza is putting her career before her own party. if she wont precipitate change, regardless of which direction, then it will fall to the pro eu tories.

      the vonc may fail tomorrow but more vonc’s can be tabled in the following weeks. eventually, the pro EU tories will face a decision, support a vonc or face a no deal brexit.

      anna soubrey and co will break. talk of delaying or cancelling a50 or a peoples vote etc, is for the birds. the only thing being offered to the pro eu tories from corbyn, is a vonc and ge.

      this is brinkmanship on an epic scale, i calculate there is 7-14 days to resolve this issue beyond which, no deal becomes inevitable

    50. Nuggets O'Pish says:

      o/t. My local corner shop guy has stopped selling newspapers altogether. He tells me he was selling an average of 6 copies a day across all titles. The news stand is now a crisps stand.

      Also o/t, someone posted that they ended up in the Artisan Bar after the Edinburgh AUOB march. It’s one of my local bars and I know that it’s frequented by a small clique of labour party gonks. I wish i’d gone for a pint after the march just to see their faces in a bar full of saltires. Anyway, back to the serious stuff….

    51. Mark Fletcher says:

      This site’s resident trolls are giving Nicola a bit of a hard time tonight – whoever is paying them should double their wages because they are working at it with a will. Project Smear is well under way. My confidence in Nicola remains unaffected.

      I predict chaos and social unrest in England. The spirit of Brexit is not going away.

      I have no fears about Scotland pulling steadily away from our southern neighbour until independence is regained. I think Scotland, under Nicola, will remain peaceful and stable.

      But – I fear for Holyrood. Our opponents are vicious and unscrupulous.

    52. Thepnr says:

      @Ian Mackay

      Independence is coming Brexit or not because support for it is growing. When this clusterbourach is over then I easily see 50%+ in all polls for the foreseeable future.

      Independence is not just about membership of the EU and never has been. As far as I’m concerned the incompetence of a Westminster government for the last 10 years is more than enough.

      No, make that 20 years, 30 even!

      No fucking incompetence in government for 300 Years is enough reason for Scots to take back control of their own affairs. The EU is but a blip in these 300 years of abuse and robbery.

      Scotland will be Independent when we the people chose to do so.

    53. call me dave says:

      News: Theresa phoned the FM tonight.

      FM says that May really has no idea what to do. (Radio 5)
      (FM twittered about this)

    54. Robert J. Sutherland says:

      Ghillie @ 23:02,

      Well said. Your positivism shames the small band of negativists and nay-sayers who have taken to polluting this site, and the stark contrast exposes them for the slimy BritNat fellow-travellers that they truly are. The stridency and persistence of their whining grows in proportion to the closer to independence we get. One sure sign of progress!

    55. Bob Mack says:

      @Rock,

      Is 2640 your P.I.N by any chance ? Just curious.

    56. Iain mhor says:

      Not that engaged with Brexit (fascinating politically maybe but a couple of hours of my life I won’t get back) but I understand that’s an SNP policy of a second EU ref not a second Indyref? Save the UK first and Scotland later?

      Well pretty much how I thought it was going to play last year. I fancied it going to a GE right enough, because the Tories would have to be dragged screaming into a 2nd EUref. The government and opposition was tearing itself apart because they are both incompetent, so there could only ever be a time when the table would get booted and a Vonc was pushed for.
      A VONC the Tories would always win and another snap GE because of a resignation they would also win and it’s back to square one for the Tory/Labour Brexit to continue. So, whether a GE or a nebulous 2nd EURef (ha!) it is also back to square one for Scotland who already did both of these things.
      Since the final deal and details of Brexit cannot be known under these circumstances – and insofar as they ever could, the EU said what it was last year – what constitutes the trigger for Indyref2?

      I’m too dumb for Brexit – back to the Playstation and wake me when we’re out of the EU or there’s an Indyref2. I won’t need waking for a GE I cannot influence the outcome of – I’ll be having a lie in.

      Where’s Ruthie?

    57. Dr Jim says:

      Tom Harris on Scotland tonight says Theresa May won’t allow another Indyref

      Tom projecting his own desires there plus he hasn’t been paying attention

    58. Rock says:

      Ian Mackay says:
      15 January, 2019 at 11:06 pm

      “If the UK voted to reverse Brexit then the SNP could take credit for helping that decision be made. It would crucify the Unionist’s charge that all SNP talk about is independence. It may even see the SNP polling and membership increase.”

      How does that bring independence forward from 2640 AD?

      The SNP stop talk about independence – the unionists’ charge is crucified.

      The SNP call an independence referendum – the unionists’ charge is resurrected.

    59. Arthur Thomson says:

      The only ‘meaningful’ consultation May will be carrying out in the next five days will be with Labour. The Brit philosophy of conceit and contempt does not countenance the genuine involvement of anyone but Brits in their mf of all parliaments.

      Can anyone even imagine that these people are the cream of the Brits. We always knew they were a plook on the arse of humanity but their density is quite a revelation. Lol.

      So much to look forward to in the continuing Britshitfest.

    60. Thepnr says:

      Iain mhor says:

      “Not that engaged with Brexit”

      I didn’t get any further.

    61. Wee Alex says:

      Once again we get the charge that Westminster has to take account of the 17,4million.

      At the 2016 election the Tories and DUP got 13.9m votes. The other parties got 18.3m yet the Tories have total power, I never hear them complain that we need to bother about the 18.3m. And what about the sixteen and seventeen year old denied a say In their future.

      The Westminster system s corrupt, the sooner we get out the better.

    62. Ghillie says:

      Thepnr @ 11.07

      🙂 🙂 🙂

      So many folk who have had their spiteful way for far far too long, (more than 300 years!) are now recognising that the tide has turned.

      I’ve felt pretty optimistic ever since the first calling of the 2014 Indyref and through all that has happened since.

      Never took off my YES badge, car always decked with my feelings on Independence =)

      And now today those good feelings are blossoming!

      Scotland is so ready to take her place in the World and this time, we know it!

      Yes! The answer is definitely YES 🙂

    63. Thepnr says:

      @Nana

      Haha on the third link but first two were spot on. She won’t resign tomorrow though so Pete Wishart has jumped the gun IMO. She’ll only go when she’s pushed and not before.

    64. Dr Jim says:

      Theresa May appears on the TV any hour of the day she chooses
      the first minister of Scotland isn’t allowed on the TV unless invited because Scotland has no *power* over broadcasting so Scotlands FM is forced to use social media to communicate with the electorate in the country she represents and still the Trolls complain that the FM speaks at all

      A sure and certain clue to the fact that Unionists dislike free speech unless it’s for them accompanied by a big drum and their very own big mouths

      As we can all see tonight by the presence of all the little rascal Trolls infesting WOS because the nasty little weavils go into overdrive and bitterness when they’re losing

    65. Capella says:

      @ Nana – thx for the links. Fair cheers me up to see the utter abysmal chaos in Westminster.

      It’s been kicked into tomorrow for the VONC but BBC radio 4 is discounting that as a Tory win. News at ten extended programme stuffed full of voices from England, Wales, Ireland, Brussels and Germany. But absolute silence on Scotland.

    66. Robert J. Sutherland says:

      Thepnr @ 23:16 pm

      Brexit though has finally shattered the Tory private-school facade of self-assurance and “fitness to rule” that has seen them through many a previous political pickle, just as it has exposed the current Labour leadership to be clueless incompetents who haven’t evolved beyond the 1970s.

      The staggering vote in the HoC today is but one small example of the truly gobsmacking nature of the Brexit megaguddle. This crisis is proving even bigger than Suez, and that is saying something. The English political establishment is self-destructing in front if our very eyes, and doing so over irreconcileable doctrinal nit-picking.

      Important therefore not to let this stupendous historic opportunity go to waste.

      (And I don’t believe our own astute leadership has been, or will do.)

    67. Rock says:

      Pete Barton says:
      15 January, 2019 at 10:45 pm

      “You let yourself down, however with the assertion that

      ‘It could never come again’

      A good idea never stops coming..again.

      It is immortal.”

      Absolutely. 2640 AD is not that far off and we must remain optimistic.

      My only fear is a “people’s referendum” in 2642 AD which might reverse the Yes vote in 2640 AD.

      You know like the new EU referendum Nicola is flogging to reverse Brexit and postpone Scottish independence to 2640 AD.

    68. Thepnr says:

      @Ghillie

      “Never took off my YES badge, car always decked with my feelings on Independence =)”

      I’ve always kept my badges on, time for the stickers to go back on the windaes of the car. Never took them off, different car. That’s true but also my excuse 🙂

      You just keep on keeping on my good totally positive friend 🙂

    69. Dr Jim says:

      My badges are on every jacket I own

    70. Lenny Hartley says:

      thenpr there is an audit trail from the day that the EU announced that they were going to outlaw Tax Avoidance and Cameron et all talking up a Referendum. Im tired and I cant be arsed looking it up, Im sure Daisy Walker has the info at their fingertips 🙂

    71. Rock says:

      Dr Jim says:
      15 January, 2019 at 11:26 pm

      “Tom Harris on Scotland tonight says Theresa May won’t allow another Indyref

      Tom projecting his own desires there plus he hasn’t been paying attention”

      Do you, Jimmy, think that Theresa May will allow another Indyref?

      Go on, project your own desires here.

    72. Nana says:

      I agree Thepnr. I doubt she will go tomorrow, she has no honour and no self respect. But she does have some brass neck!

      @Capella, Delboy would have run the UK better than the lot being paid to 🙂

      For anyone still up at midnight, Steve Peers will be on talkradio (link below)

      https://twitter.com/StevePeers/status/1085320392435208193

      http://talkradio.co.uk/

    73. Robert J. Sutherland says:

      Rock @ 23:22,

      You didn’t answer my question, you shit-stirring little coward, instead you doubled down on your previous transgression.

      Who gave you the right to override Stu’s own judgement? Who gave you the right to second-guess him, and re-publish whole chunks of an article he chose to remove?

      You have gone way beyond reasonable behaviour, you arrogant prick.

    74. Thepnr says:

      Lenny

      Will I see you on the 24th 🙂 Would hope so.

    75. Graf Midgehunter says:

      Bob Mack says: 11:20 pm

      “@Rock,

      Is 2640 your P.I.N by any chance ? Just curious.”
      ————————

      Divide 2640 by two = 1320 – YES it’s the Dec. of Arbroth..!

      He’s a secret devotee.. 🙂

    76. Dr Jim says:

      Look at the panic in the Troll’s behaviour, it’s an embarrassment to itself
      It’s wee sticky keyboard must be on fire

    77. Rock says:

      Lenny Hartley says:
      15 January, 2019 at 11:44 pm

      “thenpr there is an audit trail from the day that the EU announced that they were going to outlaw Tax Avoidance and Cameron et all talking up a Referendum.”

      You are absolutely right.

      The whole farce was to blackmail the EU into granting concessions.

      It backfired, but all those negotiations and summits have cost taxpayers throughout the EU hundreds of millions, if not billions.

    78. Hamish100 says:

      Rock of ages. Up late the night son! Away to bed its past 2160. Lol

    79. Lochside says:

      geeo says:
      15 January, 2019 at 9:39 pm
      More utter pish from Lochside.

      ‘You DO know that any SNP support for this ‘people’s vote’ (as opposed to the badgers who voted last time…) has ALREADY been caveated, in that, either, any 2nd EU vote MUST have a 4 country veto, as proposed last time by Scotsgov.’

      Never miss a chance wee man to be offensive do you?.’This caveat’..and who do you think will respect this or agree to it?….Westminster? …really!!…and if they don’t? Yet I am the one talking p*sh??

      Your erudite analysis is so blindingly clear sighted that all we lesser mortals on here can rest assured that your measured and thought provoking political insight and wisdom is beyond question and is central to the SNPs current political formulation for action on Brexit.

      So I await your next epistle of sagacious realpolitik mixed in with your customary devastating wit and good humour.

      BTW you will know, no doubt, that in legal terms ‘caveat’ can mean ‘buyer beware’…. Ponder on that Geeo…

    80. Rock says:

      Robert J. Sutherland says:
      15 January, 2019 at 11:49 pm

      “Who gave you the right to override Stu’s own judgement? Who gave you the right to second-guess him, and re-publish whole chunks of an article he chose to remove?

      You have gone way beyond reasonable behaviour, you arrogant prick.”

      While the likes of you believe that you have a God given right to post here, I post here by the grace of the owner of this site.

      The Rev. would have removed my comments if he wanted to but hasn’t.

      What right do YOU have to abuse me? It is not YOUR site.

    81. Capella says:

      OMG – another car crash Lesley Laird interview via Stu’s twitter. “All options are on the table” as they have been for ever. Yawn.

      https://twitter.com/WingsScotland/status/1085321915647053830

    82. Bob Mack says:

      I vote to give Rock the night off tomorrow. As a goodwill gesture I am volunteering to cut and paste his usual posts for the last two years.

      You know “2640, Nicola, wasted opportunity, millions in costs blah blah blah”

      Enjoy an evening off Rock. Cut your toenails or something.

    83. Lochside says:

      P.S. geeo .. ‘the badgers who voted last time’…what was this for GEEO..’Brockxit’?

    84. mike cassidy says:

      Bob Mack 11.20

      And if you clone a card to access Rock’s account with 2640

      You’ll find its empty!

    85. Thepnr says:

      @Robert J. Sutherland

      Rock hates himself and that’s why he posts here.

    86. Rock says:

      Hamish100 says:
      15 January, 2019 at 11:54 pm

      “Rock of ages. Up late the night son! Away to bed its past 2160. Lol”

      Nick Robinson, you must absolutely make sure you get your meds before a No Deal Brexit.

      Or before a “snap” Westminster election.

    87. K1 says:

      Does anyone know if the 13 Scottish Tory MP’s voted alongside UK gov in the withdrawal vote, now last night?

    88. Bob Mack says:

      @Mike Cassidy,

      Probably because of the lawyers fees . I think that’s why he hates them so much. All that money just to lose your case. Oh dear.

    89. So much for T May’s plan to consult cross -party MP’s :

      Clearly @theresa_may is deep in denial. How dare she set principles for cross party talks which exclude us all? She’s in no position to dictate terms. She needs to go & let competent people takeover #Brexit #PeoplesVoteJoanna Cherry QC MP added,
      Kirsty Hughes

      @KirstyS_Hughes
      No 10 sets out principles for cross party talks which exclude tory remainers and all other parties – no 10 just lost by 230 votes, still at shock and denial stage? https://twitter.com/iainjwatson/status/1085271407259455488

    90. Dr Jim says:

      I believe 3 Scottish Tories voted against their own government, I should add not for Scotlands benefit, especially the mad wee cocaine eyed nitwit

    91. Bob Mack says:

      @K1,

      3 Scots Tory rebels voted against May.Ross Thomson was one.

    92. Nana says:

      @K1

      I think ten of them voted for her deal. Three against if I recall correctly were Ross Thomson, Douglas Ross and John Lamont.

      I will check tomorrow.

    93. Bill Hume says:

      Up after midnight, not like me. Just thinking about how many Yes stickers I might need for my wee car. I felt obliged to remove them after 2014. The poor wee thing looked like the script for a porn film.
      Ye, yes, yes, yes,YES.

    94. Dr Jim says:

      @ Meg

      Yeah Meg she called for cross party talks and then laid down red lines again before they even get started

      The wummin’s gone completely bonkers, you don’t ask somebody to talk then tell them what they can’t talk about

      Madness on stilts

    95. K1 says:

      Thanks folks, so 10 of them voted for Scotland to get shafted. And the other 3 are self serving pricks. Good to know.

    96. boris says:

      Misconduct Regulations state that the subject officer must receive immediate formal notification of the misconduct allegation once it has been determined that an investigation is required and an investigator has been appointed, so that the subject officer is provided with the opportunity to address it if it is their wish.

      Addressing the concerns of senior officers, procedures would be revised requiring more than one “deciding” officer to ensure key decisions were taken ensuring a better oversight of the complaints process.

      This was denied to Alex Salmond and the decision to appoint an “investigating office” should not have been taken by Evans on her own!!!!

      https://caltonjock.com/2019/01/16/a-wee-peek-at-the-employment-history-of-judith-mackinnon-head-of-people-advice-for-the-scottish-government-enlightening-indeed/

    97. Dr Jim says:

      @Nana

      You’re right Nana I was just too lazy to type their rotten wee names

    98. Colin Alexander says:

      Noo, where did I put they Yes badges I bought oot Dave McEwan Hill’s Yes shop in Dunoon? (Jist in case).

    99. Schrodingers cat

      I believe this is the timetable:

      If the VONC wins the T May has to stand down and the Tories have 14 days to make another government.
      If they fail then it goes to a GE and that needs 35 days which would take us to the 6th March – so there three weeks spare to faff about.

      If we are not well on the road to some sort of Plan B by February then a No Deal is probably coming down the line unless the Article 50 situation is altered.

      However, didn’t someone say that it has to be legally set by January 21st?

      Corbyn is such a disappointment – he sounded like a Dalek going ‘exterminate! exterminate!’

      Bring on Indy

    100. Nana says:

      @Dr Jim

      I was grinding my teeth whilst typing…Grr

      Good night all

    101. Thepnr says:

      @Rock

      “The Rev. would have removed my comments if he wanted to but hasn’t.”

      That’s because he had to leave a toy for Indy supporters to play with when they felt the need.

      That’s you Craig, your it! Nah I’m just pulling your chain 🙂

    102. Still Positive says:

      K1 @ 12.03

      10 did vote with the Government 3 did not. Think is was Ross Thomsom, John Lamont and perhaps Paul Masterton from East Renfrewshire.

    103. K1 says:

      Thanks Nana, can’t bring myself to wade through all those tory gammons trying to find the up and coming gamonnees.

    104. mike cassidy says:

      Those local elections In England and Northern Ireland on 2nd May are going to be fun!

      Never mind the EU elections later that month in which we may or may not be involved.

    105. HYUFD says:

      Ian Mackay People get more conservative as they get older otherwise Labour would almost always win given the Tories have not won the under 25 vote since 1983. Remember too 30 year olds in 1975 would have voted to stay in the EEC by a clear majority, in 2016 they would have been 71 and voted clearly to leave the EU

    106. Thepnr says:

      @Meg merrilees

      You may have ignored the most likely outcome in that the VONC loses.

      That’s the question I think needs answering.

    107. crazycat says:

      @ Meg merrilees at 12.13

      During the 14 days after a VoNC, anyone who can command the confidence of the House in another vote can then form a government – it doesn’t have to be the Tories, though it could be.

      Only if no-one can manage this is there a GE.

      (Obviously in this particular case, the Tories are the largest party, they potentially have the support of the DUP, and the chances of Labour working with everyone else to form an alternative are “nil to zero”, but as a general principle it can be anyone. Perhaps that is what you meant, of course, and I have misinterpreted you.)

    108. Thepnr

      see my post @ 8.43 when I ask exactly that question.

      I was only laying out the timetable – if the unlikely happens and she loses the VONC.

      Now reading that Fluffy has said they will keep returning to the PM’s deal for a vote until it get passed.

    109. geeo says:

      Oh dear lochside…

      You said this:

      “This caveat’..and who do you think will respect this or agree to it?….Westminster? …really!!…and if they don’t?

      Yet I am the one talking p*sh”??
      ………

      Emm…if WM does not agree to it, then Scotsgov will rescind support for the ‘people’s vote’

      That is what the caveat is ffs, so clearly you didn’t know about it.

      “Scotsgov supports a Peoples vote …IF…etc”

      The fact you need this explained, says it all.

    110. Iain mhor says:

      @Thepnr 11:33pm

      I don’t blame you, it didn’t say much. Other than the obvious. What’s Brexit to me? There’s bugger all democratically I can do to affect it. None of my votes count or ever will, Not in a G.E, not in an EuRef – so meh.
      Indyref on the other hand…

    111. Thankyou crazy cat – I thought that was the correct procedure about a free for all but I’m taking my post from the advice on the BBC website – “what happens next?” and I thought perhaps there was a different procedure in this situation.

      Aaargh! I’ve started to believe the BBC – help, nurse, antidote quick !!!

      —–

      Phew – just checked back and I’ve misread it ‘…Can any government win a confidence vote within 14 days’

      … it’s gonna be a tight timetable either way.

      Phew! that was close – Think I need to go and lie down in a dark room…

      https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-46393399

    112. Thepnr says:

      @crazycat

      I’ve always respected your opinion so do you believe the VONC tomorrow might win? I put it at 0% but I could of course be wrong LOL.

      That doesn’t really matter IMO, if it did win the GE almost certainly but who cares that makes no difference to anything as far as I can see.

      So best focus on it losing and then May has to come back on Monday in front of parliament with a Plan B, I obviously have no idea what Plan B might look like but it doesn’t matter a fuck as it is not going to look any different to Plan A that just lost by 230 votes.

      So it’s No deal by default or those that oppose No deal get their shit together. I’d bet the house on them getting their shit together and we have a second referendum and Remain will win.

      I’m a gambler so here’s a tune I played Off Topic pre 2014.

      Seems appropriate for this cluster…. 🙂

      http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_Yhyp-_hX2s

    113. Thepnr says:

      “If you had One Shot! One Opportunity to seize everything you ever wanted.”

      Would you take it?

    114. crazycat says:

      @ Thepnr

      The Grieve amendment forces the government to return to the House with Plan B within 3 days, but if there is no government…

      I tend to think the VoNC is just posturing; as has been said before, it seems very unlikely that any Tories would vote to end their own careers (automatic removal of the whip, followed by deselection), unless they really do think there might be a GE and that they would lose their seats anyway. In that case, as independents they might feel that they had a chance to participate in a Corbyn-led coalition to take over during the 14 days – but I can’t see that happening really.

      I’ve given up predicting things – we’ve only a few hours to wait for the real thing!

    115. mike cassidy says:

      If it gets to that stage

      and who would bet on any outcome yet

      you cannot have a second EUreferendum which is simply an ‘in/out rerun of the first.

      The ‘two-year-and-counting’ clusterfeck following the first one makes that clear.

      But if you start adding detail, at what point does it cease to be a referendum?

      And become some sort of illegitimate offspring of a referendum.

    116. Thepnr says:

      @crazycat

      “it seems very unlikely that any Tories would vote to end their own careers (automatic removal of the whip, followed by deselection)”

      I think that’s the point the VONC is very unlikely to win. So the question is what comes next? I’ve speculated enough here on Wings already and I’m pretty sure everyone knows what I think so no need to go further.

      Before I go to bed though crazycat whether you listened to that last tune or not here he is again just for you 🙂

      It’s the words I liked back in 2013 when I played these tunes. Every tune I played on Off Topic meant something then, well at least to me it did and I was speaking aloud.

      http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=j5-yKhDd64s

    117. ronnie anderson says:

      Meg merrylees Fluffy talks a lot of keich , parliamentary procedure prevents Tereza’s deal coming back for debate once its defeated .

    118. chicmac says:

      May will be sustained in place. Yea unto the bunker.

    119. Cactus says:

      Here hey haul Theresa, politician, you should do a cover song of this:
      http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gi5j7jjhm4M

      Remember ‘that’ cringe frae ’97… the Tories are now just the other opposing party on a different day / millennium.

      Imagines her walking the walk hahahahaha.

      Their street parties are now over.

      Here we go SCOTLAND!!

      IMPORTANT NB the link above is not in support of the party featured in the video, but it is funny looking at the state of em hehe 😉

    120. K1 says:

      Here they are, got from Rev’s twitter.

      Andrew Bowie (West Aberdeenshire and Kincardine) For

      Colin Clark (Gordon) For

      David Duguid (Banff and Buchan) For

      Luke Graham (Ochil and South Perthshire) For

      Bill Grant (Ayr, Carrick and Cumnock) For

      Kirstene Hair (Angus) For

      Alister Jack (Dumfries and Galloway) For

      Stephen Kerr (Stirling) For

      Paul Masterton (East Renfrewshire) For

      David Mundell (Dumfriesshire, Clydesdale and Tweedale) For

    121. Cubby says:

      Happy to repeat my prediction which still has legs.

      No deal. United Ireland. Independent Scotland. Britnats in tears.

      It’s got to be better than Nostrabamus with his snap Brexit Rockshit.

    122. Cubby says:

      Woke up, feeling thirsty, went to get a glass of lemonade – none to be found.

    123. Cubby says:

      Has Cactus drunk all the lemonade?

    124. Breeks says:

      Boil it down, and two things of significance happened today.

      First, The EU were told the UK chooses option A, a No Deal Brexit, and rejects option B, Theresa May’s negotiated preamble.

      Second, Ian Blackford moved beyond saying Scotland would be satisfied staying in the Customs Union and Single Market, and said unequivocally that Scotland would not be removed from Europe against the will of the people. Bingo!

      Nothing else that happened today, make that yesterday, now matters.

      Full revocation of Article 50 isn’t going to happen.

      Extension of Article 50 is wishful thinking. The EU Elections begin 53 days after the Article 50 deadline expires, which creates difficulties in protocol if the UK’s EU membership is still uncertain. I do not believe the prospect of the UK returning disgruntled Brexiteer MEP’s to disrupt the EU Parliament will be attractive to the EU, bearing in mind extension of Article 50 will require all 27 Members to agree. IF there is an extension, it will be a brief 7 weeks maximum duration, and even that will be as appealing to the EU Governments as cold sick.

      Theresa May’s vote of No Confidence, even if it prompts a General Election, will return either the same dysfunctional pro Brexit Tory regime, or the equally dysfunctional pro Brexit regime of a Labour Government. The mooted possibility of an Emergency Government, born of expediency and precarious allegiances with a single option manifesto for a Peoples Vote will be as appealing to the EU Governments as tepid sick.

      The UK is already shut in the airlock, and the only door which the UK can open by itself is the one that vents to the vacuum of outer space. To turn around and get back into the warm bosom of Europe requires cooperation, and some monumental feat of persuasion to convince the EU the UK is a born-again believer in EU values and principles, and something tells me the EU will need to be on some mind bending drugs to fall for that.

      Poor wee Scotland has been dragged into the airlock too, and yes, against our will, ..but unless the EU hears us banging away on the door to be let back in… well, I don’t have to spell it out. If nothing changes, we default to going out the door with Stupid. The time is now upon us when we need to act, commit to Europe, and save ourselves by our own positive volition. We can no longer be reluctant passengers we have been.

      72 days to do what we gotta do. But at last Ian Blackford has finally said we’re doing it.

    125. Cactus says:

      Allow me tae quench yer thirst in the meantime Cubby:
      http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NMyDw1x3agY

      Keep being awesome, Scotland.

    126. marsfries says:

      Politico and other sources reporting that May & co plan on resuscitating her deal if, as looks likely, she survives the vote of no confidence. That on the heels of the largest government defeat ever. This attitude of sticking your fingers in your ears and going, lalalala I can’t hear you guys, has been par for the course since 2016 so it wouldn’t surprise me if this is May comes back with on Monday next week. I liked Groundhog Day much better when it starred Bill Murray instead of a bunch of self-serving pricks. Corbyn’s going to dig in too. Stalemate’s going to resolve on March 29 when Shite Britain crashes out with no deal. Sturgeon better call Indy Ref 2 on 30 March for this autumn under supervision of neutral EU observers.

    127. William Wallace says:

      Get it right round ye Finport. 🙂 😉

    128. Cubby says:

      I have a thirst for independence. And an increasingly low tolerance of Britnat crap.

    129. Liz g says:

      Cubby @ 2.32
      Naw Cubby, Cactus is a Gentleman and would share the Lemonade!

    130. Cactus says:

      Mornin’ Liz, that was some day yesterday… we wonder what of today? See ye at the next gig xx.

      Aweright Wallace ya… be ye grand yersel bro? 😉

      UK End of Days.

      Day 2.

    131. Cactus says:

      Here’s some lingo on ‘the lemon’:
      http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yUqj8yEXp-0

      Learning is groovy hehe 🙂

      Did you know…

    132. A. Bruce says:

      @Breeks
      Hi Breeks, you say “unless the EU hears us banging away on the door to be let back in” Well, we’re not out yet,and the best and possibly the only way for us to reach out to them is for us all to sign Martin Keatings petition which has been approved to the European Parliament and which is on behalf of “Forward as One-Scotland.
      “The petitioner requests the European Parliaments support should Scotland choose to become independent from the UK before the conclusion before the conclusion of the negotiations on its withdrawal from the EU, in order to defend Scotland’s right to continue to be a member of the European Union and renegotiate independent membership in accordance with Article 48 of the Treaty on European Union” We must move quickly.

    133. Robert J. Sutherland says:

      Breeks @ 02:41:

      EU elections begin 53 days after the Article 50 deadline expires, which creates difficulties […] IF there is an extension, it will be a brief 7 weeks maximum duration, and even that will be as appealing to the EU Governments as cold sick.

      Exactly, and for the right reason; the only quibble I have is that the EU27, I believe, would fairly readily accept it, provided they see some light at the end of the tunnel for their pains.

      Theresa May’s vote of No Confidence, even if it prompts a General Election, will return either the same dysfunctional pro Brexit Tory regime, or the equally dysfunctional pro Brexit regime of a Labour Government.

      As clear as day. Labour appear to be indulging in political magical thinking if they truly think otherwise. But who realistically can believe they will come out of a UKGE ahead, other than the SNP?

      The only route I can see to an EUR2, and very faintly at that, is if Labour win a VONC and get a chance to form a short-term minority government with SNP and other support to twist their arm, including some rebel pro-Remain Tory support to avoid the Big Cliff. Not exactly likely, is it?

      The UK is already shut in the airlock, and the only door which the UK can open by itself is the one that vents to the vacuum of outer space. […] Poor wee Scotland has been dragged into the airlock too, […] and yes, against our will. […] If nothing changes, we default to going out the door with Stupid.

      A vivid analogy. Nice touch of gallows humour in that final kicker! =heh, heh=

      But I still believe as much as ever that the SG is packing plastic for the inner lock, and the EU is ready and waiting to catch us into safety when it blows. But it’s down to us to take the Big Risk, to have the self-belief and willingness to make that first move on our own.

    134. William Wallace says:

      Aye – rare Cactus – yirsel?

    135. Liz g says:

      Cactus @ 3.34
      Mornin Cactus… See ye there xx

      ………………………………

      A Bruce @ 3.53
      Yes .. A very important petition to sign!

    136. Cactus says:

      Ahm hot diggity SO see yee’s both there at the next giggity hehe!

      Ahm awa tae eat a lemon.

    137. yesindyref2 says:

      I’d say there is a chance of the VONC succeeding, even if a fairly small one.

    138. yesindyref2 says:

      Very good article from Keven McKenna about the 3 S’s – Sturgeon, Salmond and the SNP. Cuts through the crap others are going outrageously overboard with.

      https://www.thenational.scot/politics/17360295.right-wing-hacks-will-talk-up-an-snp-civil-war-but-this-is-laughable/

    139. cearc says:

      Whoah, spooky,
      I get up in the we small hours to do some baking and tackle my lemon glut (lemon cake, lemon pie and lemon syrup), sit down with a coffee and find that everyone’s been talking about lemons! You must have smelt them, they’re ripe and sweet.

      Is the UK officially a failed state yet? Our team did well today, did they not? Too late to save England I think and not good to have a disastrously failing state next door.

    140. Gerry says:

      Nicola Sturgeon.. “Off to London to meet with @IanBlackfordMP and @theSNP MPs ahead of no confidence vote in Commons later. We want UK to stay in EU which is why we back a #PeoplesVote. But it is becoming increasingly clear that Scotland’s wider interests will only be protected with independence.”

      I like the last bit.

    141. Ken500 says:

      Every day people wake up and think did they just dream that. The recurring nightmare of the unionists trying to ruin the world economy and no one trying to stop them. Another two years of this it will push more folk over the end. There are already too many people in depression and difficulties. The unionists are going to cause a world recession, again. The most incompetent bunch of ignorant imbecile to every be put on the planet. They are killing people and wage to kill even more. Getting away with murder. An absolute disgrace. Killing their own supporters. The elderly who vote for them. Just unbelievable. The total and utter chaos.They are supposed to be a government. A complete and utter mess.

      The British Press (tax evading non Doms) are determined to ruin the Scottish economy. Being taken over by Hedge Funds (foreign tax evaders) who will shut them down. Even more rubbish. Thank goodness for the Internet.

    142. Stravaiger says:

      I’m going to assume the vonc fails tonight, which I think everyone would agree is a safe bet.

      That leaves the Tories to bring about one of four options-

      1. Some sort of concessions from the EU and/or dropping red lines to bring about a new deal that is palatable enough.

      2. A second EU referendum.

      3. Cancel Brexit altogether.

      4. No deal.

      Ye pays yer money, ye takes yer choice.
      My money’s still on no. 4.

    143. Petra says:

      Nicola tweeting that Big T has been in touch with her.

      John MacDonnell on BBC saying that Big T hasn’t contacted Corbyn yet.

    144. manandboy says:

      By not resigning, May demonstrates that she has a different script. By carrying on as if nothing untoward has happened, she has made it clear that her instructions are coming from somewhere outwith Parliament.

      She is a Trojan Horse. But who exactly are the Greeks in this scenario. It has to be the English Establishment.

      If not, then who?

      These events demand an explanation.

    145. jockmcx says:

      But one day the the man who worked in the garden decided to
      vote SNP,and got himself a new house,and they were all fecked.

      http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hcF9JSxkUSE

    146. Ken500 says:

      May knows she can’t bribe Nicola.

      May is such a failure.

      The NE needs Alex Salmond back into fold. Get it sorted.

      The civil servant who tried to ruin democracy in Scotland must go. STV and D’Hond’t introduced to give the unionist unfair advantage.

    147. Nana says:

      Kishorn: Rig work ‘wakens sleeping giant’
      http://archive.is/oCJbc

      Susan Aitken: Many Glasgow buildings have had sticking plaster maintenance
      http://archive.is/FV7WB

      Hoping this doesn’t put you off your breakfast.
      Weaselly gobshite
      https://twitter.com/ITVBorderRB/status/1085286642158657537

      https://www.irishtimes.com/opinion/fintan-o-toole-today-britain-discovers-it-cannot-escape-history-1.3757673#.XD2WOzTyUio

    148. Nana says:

      The cold hard reality
      https://twitter.com/davidallengreen/status/1085265449686839298

      Historic defeat: May faces her day of judgement
      http://archive.is/Uwncz

      Here is the Brexit crisis in government in a nutshell. On conference call with leading business figures tonight, chancellor @PhilipHammondUK reassured business leaders by saying
      https://twitter.com/Peston/status/1085311145303592960

      https://www.politico.eu/article/meps-consider-nightmare-scenario-of-brexit-delay/

    149. Nana says:

      https://www.prospectmagazine.co.uk/politics/motivates-tories-erg-jacob-rees-mogg-european-research-group-brexit

      A bit late now seeing horse has already bolted
      http://archive.is/OqZWZ

      A year-on from the Carillion collapse, little has changed
      http://archive.is/FQtZs

      I’ve seen a lot of similar tweets suggesting this is indeed Labour’s plan
      Labour plan rolling confidence votes to stop moving to final say peoples vote. Running down the clock, doing the job of the ERG for them.
      https://twitter.com/JonathanPlaid/status/1085309784054792198

    150. Nana says:

      Alyn Smith says
      I’ll be speaking up for Scotland in tomorrow’s debate in Strasbourg responding to tonight’s drama at Westminster. Starting 0730 Scotland time, available here:
      https://twitter.com/AlynSmith/status/1085301866907557896

      https://scotgoespop.blogspot.com/2019/01/last-night-increased-chances-of-peoples.html

      https://www.thenational.scot/politics/17360295.right-wing-hacks-will-talk-up-an-snp-civil-war-but-this-is-laughable/?ref=twtrec

      Brexit: Labour threatens to bring no confidence vote ‘again and again and again’
      http://archive.is/yiqbS

    151. Sunshine says:

      I kind of get the feeling that most people think we have tried enough to save Brexit and it is time to move on.
      I think that there should be an announcement by Nicola Strurgeon, before Friday, of a second Independence campaign.
      Ok,ok, maybe I’m just trying to will that to happen by some positive thinking, but hey, you never know it might work!
      I’m liking Breeks suggestions over the past few weeks about the way forward and someone (maybe Breeks) also suggested that the Scottish Parliament revokes article 50 and then goes to court over the Sovereignty issue. I’m liking that idea, at a minimum.
      I remember Alyn Smith, SNP MEP, pleading with the European Parliament not to abandon Scotland in our time of need and indeed getting a standing ovation, at the time.
      Let’s push forward now, this week, together.

    152. Nana says:

      Meanwhile in a parallel universe….
      https://twitter.com/Feorlean/status/1085447777574944768

      A polite request from Europe: wake us up when you know what you want from Brexit
      http://archive.is/UKeCX

      To understand where we go from here in Brexit we need to understand where we are. It isn’t a pretty picture – thread… 1/
      https://twitter.com/DavidHenigUK/status/1085439419203624960

      Keep sharing this petition
      https://www.new-direction.scot/european-parliament-petition-on-scotlands-independent-membership-of-the-eu/

    153. Golfnut says:

      @ breeks 2:41 am.
      Straight to the heart of the matter. You don’t get to many plaudits for your criticism of the SNP, but I have to say that even as a life time supporter I think they have missed some critical game changing moments.
      The game is far from over though, and if the strategy was to bring Scotland to a point where the decision for us was simple, black or white, no ifs, buts or may he’s, we are just about there.

    154. Robert Kerr says:

      Another link from the Irish Times,

      https://www.irishtimes.com/opinion/kathy-sheridan-there-is-nothing-funny-about-brexit-1.3759007

      “What have we learned from the Brexit fiasco ? That we should take nothing for granted. That a small, well-funded band of determined, self-serving, amoral shysters can bring down a great country.”

    155. Macart says:

      @Nana

      Hope you’ve got your running shoes on. I think we’re about to get busy in the not too distant future. 🙂

    156. Nana says:

      Morning Macart

      Sitting on the edge of my seat Sam 🙂

    157. Nana says:

      and Macart, we may have some well known helpers, perhaps even willing to sing a song or two

      https://twitter.com/NicolaSturgeon/status/1085410941754376192

    158. Petra says:

      Thanks for the links Nana.

      ………………

      @ Breeks …….Article 50 extension 7 weeks max.”

      Many experts are saying that A50 can be extended until July, 6 months not 7 weeks, Breeks (and more problematically even beyond July).

      http://www.instituteforgovernment.org.uk/explainers/article-50-options

    159. admiral says:

      It looks like the hapless Theresa May will keep trying to get her “deal” through, despite last night’s record Commons defeat.

      For goodness sake, Theresa – No means No! Tee hee…

    160. Abulhaq says:

      England’s difficulty, Scotland’s opportunity, in our history and colonial history generally, it was ever thus.
      The trick in seizing the opportunity and profiting from it is supreme confidence and strategic skill.
      I trust that in the current ruckus, as a potential no deal EU exit looms, we are more successful than our national historical exemplars suggest.
      This is a springboard to independence, the time to cry ‘jump’ is nye.

    161. Breeks says:


      Nana says:
      16 January, 2019 at 8:10 am

      Hoping this doesn’t put you off your breakfast.
      Weaselly gobshite
      https://twitter.com/ITVBorderRB/status/1085286642158657537

      Ever notice how he doesn’t blink? I don’t like the fella, but any doctors in room? He looks ill to me, totally stressed out like piano wire. If it isn’t illness, I genuinely wonder there’s some other stimulant at work here.

      I don’t mean that as a groundless smear. Even too much coffee can stimulate the stress hormone cortisol. The man looks like a paranoid nervous wreck.

      Go and see a doctor Mundell. If you’re not taking something, maybe you should be.

    162. Marie Clark says:

      Morning Nana, that’s quite a crop this morning. I’ll have to read them later, I’m on my way to have a small op on my big toe this morning. I’ll have to get it better ASAP as it looks as if we’ll be off and running soon.

      See you later

    163. Nana says:

      Morning Breeks

      Funny you should notice how he doesn’t blink, you are not alone

      https://twitter.com/MrMalky/status/1085333324107796480

    164. Nana says:

      Morning Petra

      Morning Marie, hope it’s mended soon Marie.

    165. Ken500 says:

      Mundell is an alcoholic. Alcoholics make bad, poor decisions. Muddled, without proper, total abstinence, ‘one chance’ rehab.

      Evans must go. Scotland would be Independent now. Without the British agents trying to ruin democracy and the economy in Scotland. Wasting public money. Being paid massives of public money to ruin the economy.

    166. Ken500 says:

      The Tories obviously want to continue this farce for another two years until they can be voted out. No one wants the poison chalice. They will just drag it out. All because inadequate, conceited Tories/unionists want to be PM. Johnston would not last a month. A bunch of criminals. Most of them should be in jail.

    167. galamcennalath says:

      Does anyone actually have a clue where MPs stand and what they actually want?

      Firstly, there are Lab and Tory loyalists who voted as they were told. That masks what they really want which could be any if the options below.

      Among all MPs there are those who …

      – oppose Brexit
      – would compromise on a soft ‘Norway’ final outcome.
      – accept May’s WA and blind exit
      – are ardent nationalists who want to take back control
      – would abandon NI or even Scotland in pursuit of Brexit
      – want to retain the UK at all costs
      – do, or don’t want a GE
      – do, or don’t want an EURef2

      … these obviously aren’t mutually exclusive. A Venn diagram might be possible, but numbers to put in circles?

    168. Breeks says:


      Petra says:
      16 January, 2019 at 8:55 am

      Many experts are saying that A50 can be extended until July, 6 months not 7 weeks, Breeks (and more problematically even beyond July).

      The extension as far as I can gather is arbitrary, and could be indefinite if the 27 Nations agree to that. But my point is why would they agree to that unless there was some purpose to it?

      Does the EU Parliament have the Constitutional power to restrict the voting rights of UK MEP’s? They might only be there for days if Brexit is not stopped but merely delayed. And given the febrile state of UK politics, what kind of xenophobic frogspawn would the UK likely return to Europe as MEP Canditates?

      In my opinion the EU is more likely to adopt a hardline approach. A courteous short stay of execution up until the EU Elections, but for anything more durable, I suspect it won’t be sufficient to ask the EU to extend Article 50, the UK will have to show more substantive contrition by revoking Article 50 permanently.

      To grant an extension of time, Europe would need to be persuaded the desire was not only sincere and not merely obfuscation and delay, but had a credible possibility of changing the whole trajectory of Brexit. Theresa May’s Deal wasn’t shot down because of demands for a rethink and a people’s vote. Theresa May’s Deal was shot down because it wasn’t Brexity enough for the xenophobic BritNat radicals.

      It’s just my own opinion. I’m not an expert. The UK has made its bed and must now lie in it. It was offered preambles for an orderly departure which it rejected, yet it still isn’t listening to a word the EU is saying. Listen to every word from the PM of Luxembourg…. the EU has already moved on.

      https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=zzcA5qV4S8U&time_continue=62

    169. Ken500 says:

      Gove is an alcoholic. Poor, bad decisions. Cameron/Osbourne drink/drug abusers. Cameron – 2 bottles of red wine a day.+ spirits. Just look at him. Visage is a give away. Vacant coupons.

    170. And the prize of the day has to go to ‘the Scotsman’ for managing to have NS and AS civil war over sexual harassment at the top of the bill although they sort of manage to put something about T May and a vote on the front page too – not sure which is more important it would seem!!!

    171. I agree Breeks – the EU has other more important things to sort out.

      When the UK , correction, England knows what it actually wants then they can go back to the 27, hopefully 28 including Scotland by then, and start to re-negotiate.

      In the meantime, sorry Theresa, we have to attend to other matters like… countries to run, elections, trade deals to improve etc…

    172. Ken500 says:

      ‘MNC Enterprise, a newspaper owner controlled by Alden Global Capital , has made a listed hostile takeover bid for Newsquest’s listed parent company Garnett, the company behind USA Today.

      A hedge fund known for deep cost cutting in pursuit of profits from struggling local media. – Herald?

    173. Marcia says:

      The vote in the gasworks today will now be a waste of time as the DUP are to back the Tories, so I doubt there will be a General Election, however this brings a problem to Labour. The last Labour Conference instructed their Parliamentary Party to seek a “Peoples Vote” if their no-confidence vote fails. That will have them fighting like ferrets in a sack.

    174. Lenny Hartley says:

      Thenpr re 24th, unfortunately dont think i will make it, hopefully will get to the gathering in the counting house.

    175. mike cassidy says:

      Nana

      What a great quote for Fintan O’Toole to include in his article.

      Fifty years ago, in A Poem in Praise of the British, the Scottish poet Douglas Dunn chillingly – and presciently – captured the strange afterlife of all this zombie history: “The archivist wears a sword and clipped moustache./ He files our memories, more precious than light,/ To be of easy access to politicians of the Right,/ Who now are sleeping, like undertakers on black cushions,/ Thinking of inflammatory speeches and the adoring mob . . .”

      https://www.irishtimes.com/opinion/fintan-o-toole-today-britain-discovers-it-cannot-escape-history-1.3757673#.XD2WOzTyUio

    176. Ken500 says:

      Will May (aka Thatcher ) be telling Nicola how many powers to be taken back from Scotland? Now whistling in the wind. May now totally pathetic, without any power. A laughing stock. The Tories will have to get rid of her. Greeting face. Then lose a GE. Deja Vu. Thatcher all over again. The Tory/unionists evil psycho bastards.

      The Tories into oblivion for thirty years or more. Destroyed by their own lies, criminality and intransigence. Appalling incompetence.

    177. @Nana,

      `A year-on from the Carillion collapse, little has changed
      http://archive.is/FQtZs`

      i keep an eye on Capita share price,

      it has fallen 90% in 3 years,

      seems to me it is being run like a ponzi scheme,

      where you need new contracts to fulfil the old contracts or you go bust,

      almost blackmailing the UK Gov/Civil Service to give them contracts or the threat of another Carillion like collapse.

    178. Macart says:

      @Nana

      Some great tweets in that thread Nana. I’m no fan of twitter tbh (an utterly mad place most of the time), but every now and again it can surprise you. 🙂

    179. hackalumpoff says:

      Angus B Macneil calls it rght for me.

      https://twitter.com/AngusMacNeilSNP/status/1085473977886232576

    180. Petra says:

      Victoria Derbyshire, outside Westminster, reading out a letter from Nicola to Big T.

      ……………………….

      I’m not an expert either Breeks but I reckon that the EU will agree to A50 being extended.

    181. galamcennalath says:

      @mike cassidy
      @Nana

      I have looked online for A Poem in Praise of the British, by Douglas Dunn.

      Can’t find it. It looks like an excellent piece.

    182. sandycraig says:

      Just in case anybody didn’t notice, the SNP civil war is still raging, according to J Hjul in the Courier today. That woman writes some crap in a year.

    183. mike cassidy says:

      Labour their usual, decisive self this morning.

      Intrigued by the btl which suggests that May could resign after winning the VONC

      thereby ensuring a ‘smooth’ handover of the office.

      Now that would be a popcorn moment!

      http://archive.is/OAhNC

    184. jezza says:

      Nicola giving an interview on Sky News after 11am

      Dirty little Unionist BritNat bastard reporter James Matthews telling the world that Nicola Sturgeon might even need to resign because of the Alex Salmond case.

      He never misses an opportunity to run down the SNP and Scotland.

    185. Cubby says:

      Jezza@10.52pm

      Yeh I saw that as well what a slimeball he is. He tells Bolton Sturgeon may well need to go but Bolton totally ignores his comment. Boulton decides that the fact his colleague seems to be giving him breaking news that the FM is about to resign or be removed is not worthy of any comment at all.

      This tells us two things:

      1. The news that the the FM of Scotland may be going is not important enough to be discussed on an English TV programme, or,

      2. He thinks that Mathews is a lying wee barsteward.

      As Mathews is the guy who interviewed the Labour MP Gaffney and they both kidded on Gaffney was a member of the public as they walked along during the Glasgow workers strike then I think Boulton knows fine well that it is option 2.

      The Britnats are so desperate now. Wings full of Britnats, Smears galore from the Britnats. The media lying as soon as they open their mouth.

    186. Ken500 says:

      The nonsense unionist Press. Murdoch off with £30Billion after destroying the world, Don’t watch it. Watch it on the internet. British agents and spies the sychophant lying Press. Controlled from Westminster. Owned by foreign Hedge Funds. The lying malicious reporters. British agents and spies manipulators. Trying to destroy the Scottish economy.

      Alex, Nicola, SNP beating them at their own game. Get it sorted. Get Alex back into the fold. The NE/Scotland needs him. The AWPR, the wind turbine in the bay (eyesore but productive) the Golf Developments. The lying Tory sychophants trying to destroy the NE/world economy. A bunch of absolute fools. Lying mugs. Most of them should be in jail.

      The Tories are going to try and drag this shambles out for two years or more. Until they can be voted out. Aka Thatcher. Civil unrest, unemployment 18%, interest rates 15%+, inflation 25%. Scottish revenues and resources taken and wasted secretly and illegally. Violence and disorder. The Poll tax. Sanctioning and starving people. Killing off the elderly, who vote for them. Ruining the economy. Banking fraud and tax evasion.

      Labour illegal wars, financial war and tax evasion. Causing the worst migration crisis since the 11WW. The European countries have to sort out the mess. Killing millions and maiming. of people. The Libdem enablers. The UK the most unequal place in the world with the biggest debt because of Westminster imbecile unionists. What a state.

      Thank goodness for the SNP standing up for Scotland, and the internet.

    187. IZZIE says:

      Nicola Sturgeon excels in interview situations. Sounded confident and authoritative. I bet the rest of the UK wish that they could vote for her.

    188. geeo says:

      DUP telling Sky News they will not vote against the Tory gov in the VONC apparently.

      As i said to a friend yesterday.

      Tories will not vote for a GE, can you imagine that?

      Apart from the fact EVERY tory who votes against the government will be deselected and lose their job, its a hard sell…”vote tory, because we voted against ourself to bring our own government down…??

      DUP will not vote down the gov if it brings a GE as a GE means THEY can be voted out of office and risks a republican majority of NI MP’s at WM, who would then agitate for a border poll due to NI people being brexited against their will, but being totally non represented at present.

      DUP are hardest brexiters going, but NI was remain.

      That may spell electoral disaster for the DUP, so of course they will not bring down the Tories.

    189. desimond says:

      An SNO member for many years and I cannot get my head around this “We must have a Peoples Vote” push.

      Another EU vote would take at least 7 months apparently…that’s another 7 months under the yoke of thejoke that is Westminster.

      And then what..if UK People vote for NO Brexit..does that then negate the Fundamental Change Mandate and we are left with the Status Quo.

      If the calls for a Peoples Vote are to equate the validity of Scotland voting for indy again then its a dangerous and tiresome ploy that’s been played.

      If its all a bluff and focus is on pushing for good approach for UK in public whilst preparing for a No Brext exit and mandate justified then at what point are we announcing…40 days from now…4 days from now…

      At some point we need to be pro-active rather than reactive.

      TBH Im starting to think Joanna Cherry is the only one who remembers to speak up for the core message of the SNP during interviews.

    190. Petra says:

      Nicola on Sky. Highlights once again that she’s head and shoulders above every solitary politician right across the UK. The best leader in the World in fact, imo. How lucky are we?

    191. Giving Goose says:

      Re the English nationalist journalist called Matthews. We should send him a white feather

    192. ronnie anderson says:

      Nicola thinking along the same lines as i posted last night [ all other business should be suspended in westminster to concentrate on Brexit ]

      Ever the stateswoman is Nicola , reiterated her 30 year friendship with Alex ( GIRUPU Boulton ) .

    193. starlaw says:

      Nothing changed last night. May and her cronies are heading for a no deal Brexit and they do not care how they achieve it. They are still on course and the clock is running down.

    194. Liz g says:

      Is something going on with Scottish questions?

    195. Liz g says:

      Oh never mind… I thought the SNP weren’t engaging !

    196. Cyber-corroboree says:

      So Mundell’s 3,000 civil servants sent up to Edinburugh from England to run Scotland are all but ready to take over. Westminster will send Scotland’s police over to NI to ensure those loyal to the SG are out of the way. Then the will ramp up these false reports of the civil war going on with the Scottish government and the Brexit shambles to declare a state of emergency. They will suspend the Scottish parliament and send the troops in to control any civil unrest.

      This whole shenanigans at Westminster is one huge big squirrel. It has all been dragged out to allow a hard Brexit and a state of emergency. This way Nicola and the SG are stifled forever.

      It is imperative that as many people as possible lobby their MEP and sign the EU petition demanding Scotland be allowed to stay members of the EU.

      Unless these 3000 civil servants sent up to Edinburugh are stopped Holyrood will become a museum to the past.

    197. schrodingers cat says:

      @geeo

      assessment of the dup is 100% correct, even though they know the voters in NI dont support them in their stance on this issue, the dup cant do otherwise, it is in their nature.

      see fable of scorpion and frog

    198. IZZIE says:

      Fluffy clearly not relishing being Theresa warm up act looking even more like a glove puppet than ever when questioned by Tommy Shepherd

    199. Jim McIntosh says:

      PMQs – While it’s important, why is Corbyn banging on about education and poverty when he should be nailing her on Brexit. He’s useless.

    200. ronnie anderson says:

      Is anybody else having problems logging into Westminster parliament tv online

    201. Giving Goose says:

      Cyber-corroboree

      It would be good to know if there are Scottish Government views on your theory. Or anyone else?

    202. Dr Jim says:

      Under no normal real life circumstances anywhere in the world would anybody put up with Mundell speaking to people in the way he does without as they say battering his melt in

      Imagine bringing your kids up to speak to people this way, they’d be coming home from school every day with flat faces

    203. Petra says:

      Big T in denial about the level of poverty in England even when confronted with the UN report by Corbyn. In denial about their disastrous education system as Ofsted now recommend that they stop focusing on exam results and focus on children’s behaviour and wellbeing.

      As any numpty would know poverty impacts on behaviour, wellbeing and ultimately exam results.

      Big T’s response is to hit back with her anti-Semitic mantra.

      Nicola was spot on when she said, on Sky this morning, that Big T is deluded. Thank God there are doctors on hand at Westminster such as Philippa Whitford, surgeon, who should think of carrying out a lobotomy, ASAP.

    204. Terence callachan says:

      The Irish border question is the only manoeuvrability available to Theresa May
      I hope she doesn’t ignore the good Friday agreement

      https://www.irishtimes.com/news/world/brexit/borderlands/keeping-peace#.XD8ZEKVL4A8.mailto

    205. call me dave says:

      @ronnie anderson

      Aye me too! Six goes in the last 20mins and getting
      —————————————————-
      This site can’t be reached parliamentlive.tv
      took too long to respond.
      —————————————————–
      Sometimes get that message but very unusual.

      I’m missing all the good stuff. Shurely shome mishtake?

    206. Ken500 says:

      It is better to Remain in the EU for Ibdependence. They have helped many Eastern European and other countries to self determination and independence. The reason Scotland could have the last Indy Ref was helped by EU menbership, it was EU UN principles that forced the Westminster unionists to facilitate Holyrood. They gave the Scottish administration as little power as possible to try and keep control. Deans changed the electoral system to give the unionists unfair advantage.

      The EU gave financial support etc to the eastern bloc and other counties to aid their road to Independence. To support the wishes for self determination and self govanance. Including German reunification. Latvia. Lithuania, Poland and the Ukraine etc. Many more helped to self determination and self governance and prosperity by EU membership and support.

      The EU was set up to stop war and starvation in Europe after 11WW. It is one of the most successful unionis ever and has succeeded.

      The Tory are such absolute liars. They cut Education £6Billion a year, NHS £Billion a year and Welfare £3Billion (for 6 years – £18Billion). From 2015 to 2020. They are sanctionig and starving people. Killing off the elderly, their own supporters.

      A complete and utter shambles. What a lot of baying imbeciles. They are a disgrace.

      They cut monies to the North. Wasting £Billions on Hinkley Point and HS2 a total waste of money. There are far better alternatives. A total waste of time and money while people are sanctioned, starved and killed by a load of imbeciles.

      The UK tax take revenues has increased £95Billions a year. From £533Billion to £628Billion. Yet they have still cut essential services. Austerity costs more. Scotland tax revenues are still pro rata higher but has to pay illegally for the Westminster unionist muck up. Taking £Billions out of Scotland.

      Nuclear is a total waste of time and money. The unionists cut renewable funding. Renewables are far cheaper, cost effective and cheaper.

      That Mundell is sitting sleekitly laughing at the mess they have made. Losers. What a bunch of misfits. Unionist politicans liars. Lie after lie. An obese person complains about obesity. Not a good look. Still lying about NHS funding. What a bunch of criven, driven tax evading liars. A total disgrace.

      The Brexit carry on is a total shambles.

    207. Nana says:

      We are aware that users are experiencing issues with Parliament TV and we are investigating. You can watch a livestream of the Commons Chamber on Youtube

      https://twitter.com/HouseofCommons/status/1085503030265556993

    208. Nana says:

      @Mike Cassidy
      I had a look for the poem last evening with no luck. Plenty information on the poet

      https://www.poetryfoundation.org/poets/douglas-dunn

    209. ronnie anderson says:

      Nana many thanks I missed Fluffy’s scottish questions , hopefully will get to catchup laters .

    210. Nana says:

      @Ronnie, Mundell had a go at Philippa, nothing new really, Tories not listening to experts…again
      see here
      https://twitter.com/MhairiBlack/status/1085504192234614785

    211. TJenny says:

      From Ian Dunt’s tl;

      ‘The state of Westminster. A government which can’t govern. An opposition which can’t oppose. The majority of MPs so piss-scared by a referendum result they won’t stand for anything. And it can’t even be watched, because parliament allowed the domain to expire on its video player.’

      So now you know why you can’t access Parly tv channel – it seems that WM’s incompetence is not confined to the chamber!

    212. ronnie anderson says:

      I’ve phoned Neil Gray’s MP office to see if they could text Neil to raise a point of order re the withdrawal of online Westminster parliament tv

    213. jezza says:

      In the event of a No Deal Brexit, will the EU need to put up a customs border in Ireland???

      If so then that goes against the Good Friday Agreement,,does it not???

      If they don’t put up a hard border then that will go against the Customs laws within the EU.

      This is a very grey area.

    214. ScotsRenewables says:

      parliamentlive.tv is working for me

    215. TJenny says:

      Think it’s only the online version that’s unavailable if referring to domain name.

    216. call me dave says:

      @ScotsRenewables

      Yeeah! Working OK now for me.

    217. inkypic says:

      Oh I do like hearing from FM on tv!!

    218. Bob Mack says:

      Mrs May definitively suffers from “concrete thinking”. She appears to be incapable of thinking in abstract terms.

      She cannot offer another people’s vote because of the implications of ruling out another Scottish referendum.

      She is hamstrung by her inability to project forward. Everything is about the physical evidence she has in front of her at any given time.

      That ultimately makes a bad leader. Good leaders are lateral thinkers with no barriers on their possibilities.

    219. Dr Jim says:

      Theresa May’s electric shock therapy last night worked a treat and she has no memory of what’s happened over the last two years
      Mundell at Scottish questions is still taking his anti Scottish medication

      Jeremy Corbyn’s protest peoples party of Judea still only want a general election to the exclusion of all else

      The DUP are still a bunch of sectarian head cases

      Not a damn thing’s changed and they don’t care, and yet there are still people in Scotland who want to be governed by this circus freak show that only specialises in CLOWNS!

    220. Nana says:

      Join us over on Facebook at 1.30pm to watch a Ministerial Statement on protecting Scotland’s interests: response to the outcome of the meaningful vote in Westminster:
      see here
      https://twitter.com/ScotParl/status/1085523362066124800

    221. Abulhaq says:

      We all know what is wrong, the question is ‘What is to be done?’
      We might all start by thinking less about the UK’s predicament and how to save the British state from its self-harming and more about our specific national concern.
      Independence, whether secured by referendum, general or Holyrood election or other means is the only thing that needs to be done. The mass education or re-education process begins now. We have all the propaganda material.

    222. Bob Mack says:

      @Albuhaq.

      What else needs done? The Scottish people are looking in dismay at Westminster. We couldn’t buy this publicity for love nor money.

      Please take us ever closer to the cliff edge Mrs May, because as I posted some time ago, nothing focuses the mind like impending disaster for your wellbeing both financially and psychologically.

      We will be ready to choose indy.

      Where the battle truly lies will be May’s ABSOLUTE refusal to give a Section 30 order. That is the only barrier remaining.

      Even so ,we have a mandate from the Scottish people for that very thing. It is how Nicolas and the SNP now enforce that mandate.

      Regardless. Prepare yourself for a major confrontation with the State, which will inevitably come. In that I am confident.

    223. yesindyref2 says:

      Yes DIY: Scottish Parliament ‘flashmob’ protest will call for indyref2

      https://www.thenational.scot/news/17360165.scottish-parliament-flashmob-protest-will-call-for-indyref2/

      ORGANISERS of a “flashmob” demonstration at the Scottish Parliament tomorrow hope 500 people will attend to call for a second independence referendum despite the forecast cold weather and the lateness of notice for the protest.

      Dave Llewellyn, below, the activist who helped create the Hands Off Our Parliament event last year and then organised the 500-mile walk for independence, has called the event Now Is The Time

    224. One_Scot says:

      Lol, James Matthews on Sky New spending more time trying to tarnish Nicola Sturgeon with a made up unionist which hunt than talking about Brexit.

      What an utter Yoon knob he is.

    225. One_Scot says:

      Yeah, I know.

    226. ScotsRenewables says:

      The Brexit predictions of our leaders, rendered as massive billboards

      https://twitter.com/ByDonkeys

    227. Hamish100 says:

      …and if the Sect. 50 is extended I take it a independence referendum would take place later in the year. Couldn’t happen before or SNP would be accuse of wrecking

    228. call me dave says:

      Mike Russell lays down ‘politely’ a gauntlet to the Tories to stick to their 2016 principles and support the general Scottish Gov view to stay in the EU.

      Adam Tomkins for the tories ignores that and true to form goes with SNP only care about Independence blah blah!.

      How dare Sturgeon travel to London etc.

    229. yesindyref2 says:

      @call me dave
      Nicola Sturgeon is completely entitled to travel to London, though it’s customary protocol for her to be invited by the rUK head of state as she is the head of state of iScotland.

      Ooops, sorry, just been for a 6 month hop in the Tardis. Please ignore.

    230. Cubby says:

      Trump, May, Britnat media and all Britnats as soon as they open their mouths out spews lies. What a disgraceful state of affairs.

      Scotland needs a new start away from Westminster and their propaganda mouthpieces in the Britnat media. A decent society an independent Scotland. Liars not wanted.

    231. desimond says:

      @Hamish100 16 January, 2019 at 1:49 pm

      …and if the Sect. 50 is extended I take it a independence referendum would take place later in the year

      How would we justify an Independence referendum IF we hadn’t been given full and confirmed exit details for leaving EU and justifying the fundamental change mandate?

      This is why the call for a Peoples Vote perplexes me…it both kicks the can down the road and also endangers the voted for mandate given to SNP

    232. Ken500 says:

      Tomkins votes and supports proposals that could deport his family (him). A migrant family. What a hypocrite. It he does not care for his family how can he care about others. A total useless incompetent. What a loser. 3rd rate reject. He wants to destroy the university sector and the Scottish economy. Troughing on Scottish taxpayers money. They want to destroy the Scottish Parliament. A cuckoo in the nest.

      May still lying. Lie after, lie after lie. A compulsive liar. The Tories cut, NHS/Education and welfare. Just beyond belief. Theybare illegally sanctioning the vulnerable and starving people. Sitting smirking about it. They are despicable.

      They will linger and drag it out. Until a GE. Another 2 years+ of this nonsense damaging people’s lives. Braying and bawling.

    233. yesindyref2 says:

      @desimond
      It’s going through the list, exhausting all possibilities until, with regret, Sturgeon is forced to say that the Indy Ref is the only route left for Scotland.

    234. Dr Jim says:

      Theresa May would rather cut her own throat than go along with a *peoples vote*, if she absulutely has to do anything she’d rather have a general election that she’d probably still win but she really does’nt want that either

      At a guess the push towards no deal will be her preferred route in the hope of threatening the EU into making a concession while at the same time crashing the stock market and terrifying the rest of the UK and parliament to give in to her deal

      These Tories don’t care what they have to do to hold on to what they’ve got and the threat of stock market collapse is right out of Trumps playbook because business in Britain will throw its hands up in the air and scream at the opposition to vote for anything but that, Tories win, job done

      Scotland Independent we’d hope but that’s when the Tories would be free to concentrate on fighting us and if they’re prepared to crash the econonmy in the UK then there’s nothing they’re not prepared to try on us

      These people are power mad and will not go down by weight of public opinion or law

      They’ll do anything

    235. wull2 says:

      The ball is now in the EU court. WM wont allow another vote, and WM said we are leaving the EU, so EU please use the first peoples vote where Scotland wants to stay in the EU.

    236. Terence callachan says:

      To jezza…..

      If there is a no deal Brexit crash out, personally I do not think there will be, but if there is, I think a Scottish independence referendum will be announced immediately and given that it takes time even for a no deal Brexit crash out to take place there will be a realisation in Northern Ireland that being in the EU will be even more important to them than it is now, they already have a majority in favour of being in the EU and I would see that majority increase if Scotland became independent and remained in the EU.
      Would Englands Westminster abandon Brexit at that point ? or continue with Brexit and lose Northern Ireland and Scotland and then be sorrounded on all sides by EU members.
      Apologies to Welsh independece campaigners but Wales appear to be well entrenched in England’s way out of the EU.

    237. Petra says:

      Many people in Scotland generally don’t have a clue about what’s going on (or who their MP is), but they’ll no doubt have heard that Toerag Treeza lost big time last night and should resign. She’ll probably survive the vote tonight in part due to the 13 Scottish Tories supporting her. Maybe folks should think of getting out onto the Main Street of their particular constituencies tomorrow with placards stating, “Do you know that your Tory MP … name … voted last night to keep TM in power” (or words to that effect) highlighting that they voted last night (tonight) to keep her in.

      Just a thought. I doubt there’ll be a GE but if there is it would help to stymie their chances of getting in again.

    238. desimond says:

      @yesindyref2

      Wouldn’t leaving the EU be the actual “We are leaving!” rather than this “Lets have a Peoples vote in 6 months time and stay in EU until then and possibly forever!”

      If SNP champion UK staying in EU and get a Remain win then there is No Chance they will get the opportunity to call for Independence. The mandate will be lost and then we are waiting for a GE and by then all momentum is gone and voter apathy could well sink in, as well os more empty promises no doubt coming from Westminster

      Im hoping Joanna Cherrys on air threat that “Scotland will go!” should may try and exit (with No Deal or some fudge) is the actual play here rather than the polite UK loving rhetoric that we are getting from the other major SNP players.

      May will come back next Monday with next to nothing and get rejected I assume. She will then probably have to repeat this process for weeks pretending she is trying to appease everyone but in fact doing heehaw bar go for Hard exit.

      As we approach March, I hope we finally hear a Press Conference being called by Nicola before ather than after we officially become ex EU.

    239. Ken500 says:

      EU membership is preferable for Independence. They will support it no end. When people vote for Independence. People have to vote for it. A greater vote for the EU will endorse membership.

      May trying to insult Scotland. What a loser. She will never learn. Ignorant useless incompetent. Intransigence to the core.

      BBC once again fails to show Ian Blackford speech. They are totally biased. Milking Scottish revenues. £3.7Billion for that rubbish.

    240. Petra says:

      @ Yesindyref2 at 2:04pm … “Customary protocol .. to be invited.”

      I reckon the days of that are over now.

    241. Tony O"neill says:

      Am I the only person sick of hearing how great a job nicola is doing re brexit?. She should be trying to destroy Westminster, not looking for plaudits from the English. She was entrusted to get independence, and imo she really needs to get the finger out and up her fuckin game big time.

    242. Macart says:

      Another fine speech by Ian Blackford.

      Don’t think he’s leaving the house in any doubt. 😎

    243. McBoxheid says:

      Anyone know what Mhairi Black had to say at 14:32?

    244. Nana says:

      WATCH: @NicolaSturgeon met SNP MPs in Westminster today.
      https://twitter.com/ITVBorderRB/status/1085536826771804160

      Understand there are conversations underway right now between SNP, Plaid and LibDems re penning joint letter stating that they will not back repeated motions of no confidence if Corbyn loses tonight – so Labour would be trying again on its own
      https://twitter.com/rosskempsell/status/1085547372216750080

    245. Nana says:

      Alyn Smith: The UK’s withdrawal from the EU (debate)

      http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7puIRWfMK-0&feature=youtu.be

    246. Cubby says:

      Mcboxheid@3.04pm

      I believe it was in connection to a sneaky change re Pension Credit. if one of the partners is working whilst the other gets Pension Credit then they will no longer get the Pension Credit. Usual Tory taking money away from people. I may be wrong but that’s what I think it is.

    247. Proud Cybernat says:

      So, 2014 NO voters who voted to stay in the UK as the UK made your pension safe. Well, the Tories just stuffed you (and everyone else in the UK) by sneaking out, under the cover of Brexit chaos, that if you reach pension age but have a partner who is below the pension age (thus must work), then you will not be able to claim the State Pension. Instead, you will have to claim the means-tested Universal Credit thereby losing you £7,000 per year.

      Yep – those safe UK pensions. Another Better Together LIE.

    248. call me dave says:

      @McBoxheid

      Shurley shome technical hitch there as I have had a go a number of times to hear it on playback….it seems to have gone forever into the ether. Interesting though.

      Only Hansard will give the words. 🙂

      I must say our MPs are taking every opportunity to get their points across.

      PS:
      Douglas Ross…what’s he like eh?

    249. misteralz says:

      Nana at 3:16, cheers for that. I’m one of those Scots in Europe he’s talking about. Got a letter from the Dutch government this week saying that I can stay as long as I like, and with all the same benefits as my fellow EU citizens, which has been a massive relief. But I still don’t know how that’s going to work in practice when I cross one of our many borders in a few months’ time…

    250. Valerie says:

      @ Dr Jim 2.25

      I agree. May will win the vote tonight, no question. A lot of deluded Corbynistas about to get a dose of reality. For all the rebel posturing from Soubry and Grieve, they will of course, vote for power.

      May was enjoying herself at the Dispatch box at PMQs, thanks to Corbyn not pressing home her defeat last night. May even managing to throw anti-semitism at him. Corbyn just sitting looking like a bewildered care home escapee.

      May will settle for No Deal, and being the Tory PM to finally lance the EU boil on the Tory arse for 40 years.

      I’ve been very loyal to SNP, as a party member, but I’m now pretty fed-up of the energy on behalf of England’s nervous breakdown.

      I suppose they are trying to make sure nothing overshadows or pulls the rug from our indy bid, at the eleventh hour.

    251. Cubby says:

      Tory MPs standing up in HofC saying their gov is rubbish. They also say that their constituents are telling them that the UK gov is rubbish but Corbyn would be even worse.

      If you have a choice not to be governed by Westminster why would you not take it. Vote for Scottish independence for better governance and a better and wealthier society.

      A vote to stay with Westminster is a vote to be governed by incompetent corrupt liars who see Scotland as a region of England to be ripped off and it’s people to be conditioned by propaganda to feel inferior and subservient to England.

    252. Nana says:

      @misteralz

      Here’s the speeches by Timmermans & Barnier during this morning’s plenary session re the UK withdrawal vote yesterday

      http://europa.eu/rapid/press-release_SPEECH-19-442_en.htm

    253. McBoxheid says:

      call me dave says:
      Cubby says:

      Thanks for that

    254. yesindyref2 says:

      @Nana
      Astute move, puts the pressure on Labour and leaves the only option then, EU Ref 2. And of course from the SNP point of view, reduces the chance of a GE 🙂

    255. Dr Jim says:

      @Valerie

      I don’t know whether there will be a no deal or not but I do believe May will use the threat of it without mercy to get what she wants but in the process of doing it Theresa May and the Tories and everybody else knows it would crash the stock market and that’s why everybody is asking her to rule out a no deal option, not just because of the no deal being in itself bad enough but the British economy will hit the floor

      The thing is people like the Tories don’t care about that because right now their own hedge fund and stock exchange people are betting on the rise and fall of the £ and making money hand over fist which you and I and the people next door don’t have the option of

      So the rich just keep getting richer no matter what happens while the Tories will blame it on Labour refusing to compromise and Labour will blame it on the Tories for being right wing, but the truth is they’re both to blame and who suffers in the end

      I’m always amazed when the facts are so obvious that Unionists still refuse to recognise them, which has always led me to believe that they just don’t want to recognise them, it’s no surrender and to hell with everybody

      Scottish nationalists tend for the most part to scrutinise as much information as we can get in the hope of helping our own case, Unionists however ignore facts and prefer the invention of smear and belligerent noise

      This could all end up in no deal by default stupidity and intransigence and wait till the women of the UK realise that 85% of all toilet rolls are not made in Britain because you know that every pensioner will line up outside every supermarket and buy all of what’s left on day one for fear of running out, which we will, remember the bread shortage panic

      It’s the simple things like Lavvy roll that’ll make the difference
      Somebody should do a list of what we won’t have, now that would be a frightener

    256. yesindyref2 says:

      @Valerie
      Keep the faith, it’s like a checklist of things to do, before take-off! Check there are wings, have a look at the engine for no particular reason, examine the paint on the bolts, see if any tyres are flat, radio frequency to tower, seat belt fastened …

    257. yesindyref2 says:

      … welcome to Sturgeon Airways! We will be taking off 31 left-hand turnout climbing to 10,000 feet. Please don’t smoke, refreshments will be served …

    258. Glamaig says:

      ScotsRenewables says:
      16 January, 2019 at 1:46 pm
      The Brexit predictions of our leaders, rendered as massive billboards

      https://twitter.com/ByDonkeys

      That is just begging to be done for Indyref2!

    259. Sarah says:

      @cearc at 06.29

      What a cheek you have talking about your glut of lemons. Here’s us 20 miles south of you, gnawing on stored potatoes and waiting for another kale leaf to grow big enough to eat.

      You don’t sound like a true Scot – more like a “foreigner”…
      [My goodness, I’m envious!!]

    260. Big Jock says:

      The EU have just said that they will not allow Brexit to drag on past the EU elections in May 23rd. The last EU Brexit referendum took 60 weeks from legislation to implementation in June 2016.

      If the EU allow more time it will only be until May, 18 weeks away. It is not even possible to get past the agreed question process, which took 12 weeks the last time in this window. The peoples vote was probably just possible in November 2018. Now it is a dead duck, and impossible to legislate and vote on in 18 weeks.

      The only options are to cancel Brexit or to let a no deal happen. If they revoke article 50 they would have to do so before 29th March, as it’s now in statute. It would require emergency legislation and Westiminster approval.

      I can’t see either May or Corbyn being the ones to stop Brexit due to public outcry in England.

      I think we are heading for a no deal folks.

      “What is required for a referendum to be held in the UK?”
      •Legislation – Primary legislation is needed to provide the legal basis for the referendum and to specify details that are not in standing legislation, including the referendum question, the franchise, the date of the referendum, and the conduct rules for the poll (although the latter two are often ultimately left to secondary legislation).
      •Question testing – The Electoral Commission has a statutory duty to assess the ‘intelligibility’ of the referendum question, a process that usually takes 12 weeks.
      •Preparation for the poll itself – The Electoral Commission and local officials need time to prepare for administering the poll and regulating campaigners. The Commission recommends that the legislation should be clear at least six months before it is due to be complied with.
      •Regulated referendum period – The UK’s referendum legislation – the Political Parties, Elections and Referendums Act (PPERA) – specifies a minimum 10-week campaign period, during which campaign regulation applies.

    261. Cubby says:

      Proud Cybernat @3.29pm

      I think you may have got that wrong (in part). I believe it is the removal of Pension Credit for new applicants after 15 May 2019 when you have a working age partner. Pension CREDIT not the actual pension. Pension credit is a top up. This change will still have a significant impact on the incomes of those affected.

      Tories wasting £4.5b on no deal preparations but taking money of poor people of pension age. Says it all about the Tories and Britnats in Westminster.

      If I’ve got it wrong happy to have it explained as I am no expert in this area.

    262. Nana says:

      Re pension credits

      Two from yesterday morning’s links

      On the eve of the critical Brexit vote, the Government is accused of “sneaking out” changes to pensioner benefits that could cost mixed aged older couples more than £7000 a year. The DWP announcement was published around 7:20 tonight
      Link to gov.uk here
      https://twitter.com/JosephineCumbo/status/1084920673296961536

      https://benefitsinthefuture.com/19000-benefits-cut-for-pensioners/

    263. Cubby says:

      Dr Jim @3.58pm

      Westminster is so corrupt I wouldn’t put it past them to have taken short positions on the economy tanking after a no deal. A bit like fixing a tennis match or insider dealing. The place is a cesspit.

    264. schrodingers cat says:

      facts are chiels that dinna ding!!!

      medja today fu’ o’ folk saying we should join hands and sing kumbya. hint, this isnae gonnae happen

      more thoughtful commenters arguing for #peoplesvote #cancela50 #delaya50 etc.

      except none of these options are on the table. Corbyn dont support them.

      the only deal on the table, the only deal which can command a majority in the hoc is a vonc and a ge

      since treeza is not gonnae resign, the only people who can stop a no deal brexit are the pro eu tories.

      if this clusterbourach is viewed as a tory party internal conflict, which it is, then the erg, 1922 commitee or as john major called them “bastards” have won.

      No matter what the pro eu tories do, they lose. If they dont rebel, then the uk will leave the eu with no deal. If they do rebel and bring about a ge, this will suit the erg down to a tee because

      1. all the polls show a no deal tory party will win a ge.

      2. It will save the erg the bother of deselecting these mps as they will be expelled automatically.

      3. the erg will take the ge as an opportunity to deselect any the pro eu tories who dont rebel. support for no deal among the rank and file tory party members is +80%

      4. a ge will force corbyn off the fence and to come out in support of brexit or against it, either way, he will lose 5% of labour voters ensuring a tory victory

      the bbc would have you believe that this battle is between treeza and the erg but by not resigning, she has handed the tory party to the erg

    265. Robert J. Sutherland says:

      wull2 @ 14:25:

      The ball is now in the EU court.

      Where did you get that peculiar notion from? From the BritNat exceptionalist playbook, it would seem. It’s the UK that’s declared it wants to quit, and it’s up to the UK to decide how. The EU has well-defined and perfectly transparent principles and it will agree to a deal, but only one that protects those principles, despite the continuing magic realism of too many BritNat politicians.

      As to the EU somehow intervening in internal UK politics, you have evidently bought into that other Leaver trope, the Great Bullying Almighty Superfederal Superpower. =sigh= Which, by failing to right every wrong, “proves” its evil scheming. Duh.

      It’s up to us to rally public opinion here at home that the self-evident best way forward for us is to escape this deadly embrace of English political paralysis, and run our own show. And when we do, we will surely be welcomed into the EU collective of sovereign nations in our own right. An equal among equals at long last.

    266. Proud Cybernat says:

      “If they do rebel and bring about a ge, this will suit the erg down to a tee because…”

      There’s another possibility you missed in your list.

      If enough Tory EU supporters rebel to help the united Opposition defeat TMay in VONC tonight, then the Tory party have 14 days to try and form another Gov. If they cannot do that and the United Opposition (including the rebel Tories) can then the leader of the United Opposition (Rainbow Alliance) – presumably Jeremy Corbyn – needs then to win a Vote of Confidence to become Prime Minister without a General Election ever taking place. They would, of course, need the support of the SNP and that will come at a price that being a 2nd EU Referendum in which the SNP, upon the outcome of the Ref, will demand either:

      a) Full Devo-Max for Scotland (including broadcasting & immigration to be devolved) IF a Second Ref is held and UK votes to REMAIN in EU.

      b) A S30 to hold IndyRef2 (yes, I know it’s not strictly needed but it’s better to have WM’s expressed compliance with the process) should the UK vote to Brexit a second time.

    267. call me dave says:

      Ah! The FM gets asked one of those

      “have you stopped beating your wife?” questions 🙂 Aye!

    268. Cubby says:

      Big Jock@4.30 pm

      I never thought the SNP believed a 2nd EU ref would happen. Hence the change from a neutral position to promoting it. I think the SNP are betting on a no deal scenario then forcing them to call a second indyref and at the same time be able to say they did absolutely everything within their power to try and prevent it.

      No Deal. United Ireland. Independent Scotland. Only downside may be Britnat tears flooding some towns and cities.

      Britnats on Wings – my advice – learn from evolution – adapt and survive – the Union is fading into the history books. Accept it and move on.

    269. heraldnomore says:

      Michelle Thomson rejoins SNP

    270. Proud Cybernat says:

      I should have added to my post @5:15pm.

      Should Oooooooh Jeremy refuse to hold a 2nd EU Ref (he’s a Brexiter afterall) then SNP should immediately demand that their support will only be given with a guarantee of S30 to hold IndyRef2 in Scotland.

    271. Rev. Stuart Campbell says:

      “The Rev. would have removed my comments if he wanted to but hasn’t.”

      I do and I have, and you’ve been put on the pre-moderation list as a result.

    272. Robert J. Sutherland says:

      schrodingers cat @ 16:59,

      Oh here we go again, opinions masquerading as “facts”.

      The only party likely to benefit from a UKGE right now would be the SNP, so I don’t rate the chance of such an event happening any time soon. (You even implicity recognise that yourself.)

      As Continental observers have recognised, the current dominant state of governance in the UK right now is paralysis. There isn’t a majority for anything.

      If Theresa May already intends, or comes to realise, that the only viable Leaver option is a no-deal Brexit, she needs do nothing. Sweet FA. She needn’t expose her party to the risk of any further election, just sit tight, weather the current VONC as she will, and let the clock run out.

      The best she can hope for is that the HoC will fold at the 11th hour and accept her rubbish deal as better than the alternative of a no-deal exit.

      If you don’t understand her determination to see this through no matter what, you don’t understand her at all.

      UKGE before E-Day? Phooey!

    273. cearc says:

      Misteralz,

      Travel with your VreemdelingenPolitie card. You can use that as id across EU and it establishes that you are a NL resident.

      When I worked in NL I only used my passport for airports and when I forgot it once the vreemdelingen card was accepted, nae bother.

      It looks like a pretty good offer from NL. No hassle. little cost.

    274. Bill Hume says:

      Welcome back, Michelle Thomson.

    275. cearc says:

      Sarah,

      You just need a wee conservatory on the south side of the house! The scent of the citrus blossom wafts through the house most of the time, you get fruit and it considerably heats the house.

    276. Cubby says:

      Stephen Kerr Tory MP Stirling

      Major sucking up to the Maybot – some Britnats just can’t help themselves – the guy is overflowing with the cringe. Bloody embarrassing that he calls himself a Scot. The only thing he didn’t do was crawl across the floor on his knees and beg for a gov job.

      A no shame Britnat – a common characteristic, along with lying of course.

    277. cearc

      My lemon tree has done incredibly well this year too. The flowers smell fantastic and I have about 7 fruits on a very small tree.

      Might have to auction them to G&T drinkers after Brexit

    278. ronnie anderson says:

      Rev 5.28 and who would be in pre moderation ah only ask as ah hiv only just come in an ma scrolling finger is sair fae todays scrolling .

    279. Robert J. Sutherland says:

      Proud Cybernat @ 17:15,

      The weakness in that scenario is the dependence on a sufficient bloc of rebel Tories. But what would pro-Remain Tories (the most likely rebels) have to gain from supporting closet-Leaver Corbyn?

      It would also signify a definitive split in the Tory Party. That may well come about before too long, but I don’t believe they are quite at that point yet.

    280. Thepnr says:

      @Rock

      See you weren’t immortal. Mibbe catch up again in 2640 AD 🙂

    281. Sarah says:

      cearc – Ha!! If our S end gable saw the sun for more than a few weeks of the year I might follow your suggestion. But you’re just trying to drive me to distraction, aren’t you – as if Westminster wasn’t already doing a fine job of that!

      Rev’s suggestion on twitter is another example of what I’ve been thinking lately – why does Westminster allow all the evasions and lies in their “debates”? It could, and should, be subject to the standards of the courts – the truth, the whole truth etc etc

      But I hope we won’t have to bother about what Westminster is doing for much longer.

    282. Sarah says:

      @ Meg – et tu, Brute? Just stop it, OK?

    283. Proud Cybernat says:

      “But what would pro-Remain Tories (the most likely rebels) have to gain from supporting closet-Leaver Corbyn?”

      There price to support Corbyn would be a 2nd EU Ref to get the UK Parliament out of its paralysis.

    284. Proud Cybernat says:

      *Their* price…

    285. call me dave says:

      Another short wee gem from Mahria Black there in that place. 🙂
      Around 17:08hrs at

      https://parliamentlive.tv/Event/Index/a93b0e1f-27d9-44c1-994a-4fad3f300a7a

      Followed by a proud Scot Unionist supporting the tories but I muted him after about 20secs. 🙁

    286. ALANM says:

      Re.Michelle Thompson

      You’ve got to admire her commitment to the cause. The way she was treated she’d have been quite justified in raising two fingers to her former colleagues and finding something more productive to do with her time (like making lemonade).

    287. K1 says:

      Time he was brought to heel. I don’t care how this looks, he’s a fucking liability on here and an arrogant little shit that thought it was okay for ‘him’ as if he has some special dispensation with you, to copy and paste your article that you had removed and quite rightly you have taken him to task for this Stu.

      But the rest of us still have to put up wi his constantly taking our comments and re posting them out of context and as a form of bullying posters, but he gets a fucking pass for that every night of the week, month of the year…and that is why he thought he could do the same with your article.

    288. ronnie anderson says:

      Waffling in Westminster . This pish is just a exercise for MPs who nobody have ever heard of to rattle their gums it certainly isn’t a debate on Brexit .

    289. Elizabeth Stanley says:

      Excellent.

      I just might start posting my thoughts again.

    290. Heart of Galloway says:

      Corbyn as abject today as Ian Blackford was excellent. But May will survive and carry on up the Khyber. Above all she fears a Scottish exit from her “precious union”and any actions she takes re the EU will be predicated on preventing that. Definitely worth the watching IMO.

    291. Cubby says:

      thepnr@5.50pm

      No more boring Rockshit stupid forecasts. Can this be true. It was on my Xmas list but still pretty low in the list. Thanks Santa.

    292. K1 says:

      He’s only ‘pre moded’, that doesn’t mean he can’t still post? Or do I not understand that term correctly?

    293. ScotsRenewables says:

      Delighted to hear that Rock is going to be pre-moderated, but for that – copying and pasting an article Stu chose to pull for whatever reason – he deserves a lifetime ban.

      Doesn’t matter though, trolls have a habit of spawning trolls, so unless he posts from a fixed IP he’ll be back.

    294. McBoxheid says:

      Helen Whately (con) just said “our children are learning to read in school under this government”
      WTF? That is a reason for backing the present PM and government?

    295. Dr Jim says:

      The new *Scottish* Labour party broadcast

      If you have’nt seen it you must, it’s a shocker with Richard Leonard looking like an even bigger bouncy chump than ever before promising to do everything for everybody and creating jobs and even the zero hours contracts came in for an airing again

      And it’s all the fault of the Tories eh oh and the Scottish government toooo!

      What a high calibre chump Leonard is

    296. Shinty says:

      https://twitter.com/IanBlackfordMP/status/1085559361852882944

      If you watch it all, Stephen Kerr gets telt by the speaker, and Douglas Ross gets telt by Ian Blackford.

    297. Thepnr says:

      @K1

      He can submit posts but they have to be read AND approved as suitable before they will appear btl on the thread.

      @call me dave

      Thanks for the heads up on the Mhairi Black speech in tonight’s debate, I had to look for it though but thanks to K1 for her Ian Blackford link yesterday I can now post a direct link for parliament tv broadcasts, starts 10 seconds or so early.

      She has a lot of passion this young woman, a real Scot 🙂

      https://parliamentlive.tv/event/index/a93b0e1f-27d9-44c1-994a-4fad3f300a7a?in=17:08:48&out=17:11:35

    298. Robert J. Sutherland says:

      Proud Cybernat @ 17:56,

      In the present impasse, it is not inconceivable, I grant you. But would rebel moderate Tories trust Corbyn to deliver an EU Ref2? He seems as reluctant in his own way as May is in hers.

      Myself, the best I reckon Corbyn could be cajoled into doing, if he somehow became PM by default, so to speak, is a Norway-style arrangement (but in isolation, not in EFTA/EEA). Beside the other conventional political obstacles, I can’t see that being a big enough sell worth Tory rebels tearing their own party apart for.

      They are going to do that all on their own for their own reasons and in their own time. It’s a real fracture that’s been a long time coming, for all the media’s willingness to look the other way.

    299. jezza says:

      Nicola and the SNP calling for a 2nd EU Referendum is what is
      Known as “mixin it” with a big wooden spoon,,,just to pile pressure on the hapless Jeremy Corbyn.

    300. K1 says:

      Thanks for clarification Thepnr.

      *feels…much better*

    301. Phil says:

      heraldnomore says: 16 January, 2019 at 5:18 pm

      “Michelle Thomson rejoins SNP”

      Thanks and welcome to MT.

    302. misteralz says:

      Cearc at 531! I don’t have one of those! They’re only for asylum seekers nowadays. When we came here all we had to do was register with the Gemeente, got ourselves a BSN number, and that was it. One of the benefits of EU citizenship…
      I think I’ll swap my Scottish driver’s licence for an NL one while I can and use that as ID. I don’t doubt the Dutch government will look after us, but it’s still unsettling.

    303. Valerie says:

      @K1
      Agree with you. Glad that arse is getting some of what he deserves.

      I’ve stayed away a lot from here, due to being sickened at disrupted threads.

    304. geeo says:

      @
      ScotsRenewables says:

      16 January, 2019 at 6:18 pm
      ……..

      Previous nutter, mac, had a dynamic IP, but Rev found alternative ways to successfully ban him.

      Hence it took a wee bit longer than normal.

      You see, these bigots, nutters and trolls, who think they are just being smart enough to keep away from the ‘hammers’ always slip up eventually and they can be neutered.

      Of course, the reporting of these people is what gets rid of them.

      There seems to be an uplift in people more willing to report than to engage with the agitators.

      More power to us. Soon as they slip up, off to the hammer room. !!

    305. Ghillie says:

      Welcome back Michelle Thomson xx

      Though in truth you never really left =)

      Lots of lovely work ahead for us all!

    306. Thepnr says:

      No confidence vote coming up, the little shit Gove is on right now bigging up Britain. It’s nauseating so it is.

    307. call me dave says:

      Jings! Rock given the cork.

      Keep him bottled up for 2064 days please.

    308. schrodingers cat says:

      Proud Cybernat says:
      There price to support Corbyn would be a 2nd EU Ref

      ===========

      that is my point, the labour party will not offer euref2 or stop A50, there isnt a majority to support these option within the labour mps,

      the only option supported by all opposition mps is a vonc/ge.

      treeza will survive todays vonc, but the the pro eu tories will face the next few months staring at a certain no deal brexit.

      that will focus their minds

    309. Thepnr says:

      While your waiting on the results of the vote (haha) have a look at the speech Gove just gave. This is Scottish cringe at it’s finest, it’d make yeh boak and I’m no kiddin.

      https://parliamentlive.tv/event/index/a93b0e1f-27d9-44c1-994a-4fad3f300a7a?in=18:49:21&out=19:00:56

    310. K1 says:

      Aye it was Thpnr…he aimed his rhetoric at the Tory back bench waverers at the threat of Corbyn becoming PM. Little piece of snot that he is.

    311. K1 says:

      Hey Alex, your Mhairi clip was slightly clipped at the end. I think we have to just go over the times marked for each speaker on the right hand bar to get an entire section of the speaker we are interested in…to achieve that.

    312. Davosa says:

      Gove is an ugly, evil ,2-faced bastard. Hope his next shite is a massive hedgehog.

    313. schrodingers cat says:

      ayes = 306
      nays = 325

      treeza survives

    314. Ghillie says:

      Thepnr @ 6.36 pm, Call Me Dave and Shinty too,

      Thanks for the link to Mhairi Black’s speech.

      That kind of clear, plain speaking is just what that madhouse needs!

      Pity we were not shown Jeremy Corbyn’s reaction to her words.

      There’s a man who is a stranger to the notion of shame.

    315. Hamish100 says:

      Davosa– Don’t you like hedgehogs?

    316. Bill Hume says:

      I have run out of popcorn
      .
      .
      .
      And I don’t even like popcorn.

    317. Thepnr says:

      @K1

      Cheers, I know now to check in future. See the government just won by 325 to 306. That’s bigger than I thought but it still only takes the 10 DUP to switch sides for the opposition to have victory in any vote.

      Importantly “any vote” and not just a VONC.

      By the way Corbyn has to buckle soon or we are doomed or the UK is doomed and out of the EU. Scotland has other options.

      I’ll be absolutely honest I really don’t care how it goes as we will be making our own way down the road in the future.

    318. K1 says:

      So 13 Scottish tories and the dup together kept this gov in place.

    319. Robert J. Sutherland says:

      schrodingers cat @ 19:03:

      the only option supported by all opposition mps is a vonc/ge.

      So much for that fact theory. The VONC has just failed. The SNP and others have declared that they won’t support another.

      Good try, but no cigar.

    320. Ghillie says:

      shrodingers cat @ 7.17 pm

      Thanks for the results.

      TM survives the Vote of No Confidence by a very very thin and whispy hair.

      Glad our Mhairi stood up against ALL that decrepit lot and left her wise words ringing in their ears.

      And so Independence for Scotland marches forward 🙂

    321. Heart of Galloway says:

      Ian Blackford just wiped from our screens as he made to move a point of order. The move was obviously pre-planned. Wonder what it was?

    322. Thepnr says:

      @ronnie anderson

      Apt 🙂 dare I say “groovy” lol

    323. Ghillie says:

      ronnie anderson @7.27 pm PERFECT 🙂

      Heart of Galloway@ 7.29 pm

      How can we find out what Ian Blackford’s point of order was going to be? SNP website?

    324. K1 says:

      325-306

      Do you know that effectively means that the 2 nations who voted to remain, have representatives in the HoC who are against their own respective country’s remain vote, with minority status in their respective country’s political system, have just handed this Tory gov the power to continue down this godforsaken route to drag us out of the EU, potentially with a no deal scenario?

      I mean, wow.

    325. ronnie anderson says:

      Davosa whit hiv hedgehogs done tae U ah hud wan in ma gairden fur many years that kept the slugs doon an Gove is worcer than ah slug

    326. Petra says:

      Big T has just invited Corbyn to No. 10 for talks. Mair time wasting gobbledy gook.

    327. Elizabeth Stanley says:

      I rather like this result.

      A vote of confidence of 19. That’s rather slim. However it’s wiped out a G.E.

      So hard Brexit or 2nd.EU ref? Nothing else left.

      I prefer a hard Brexit with an Indyref2. I think we would have a good chance at winning this one.

    328. Robert J. Sutherland says:

      The dimwit fairy-believer Tory Leavers in the HoC still think that May can go back to Brussels and re-negotiate!

      70-odd days to E-Day and May now thinks it’s about time to have a chat with leaders of other parties. Incredible.

      We have to get out of this bizarre fantasyland ASAP.

    329. schrodingers cat says:

      The SNP and others have declared that they won’t support another.

      if another vonc is tabled, i doubt the snp would abstain or vote with the tories.

      there is no chance that treezas talks with corbyn or the snp or the eu will result in a new deal. even if it did, it wouldnt pass the vote in the hoc

    330. jfngw says:

      I think the maximum number of votes once you remove the speaker, tellers & Sinn Fein is 634. So it looks like 3 abstentions. The votes on the WA deal totalled 634 and was reported as all MP’s voting.

      Kezia Dugdale strikes again, without those 12 Tories she helped into Westminster it would be defeat (actually there would be no Tory Government in the first place).

    331. Footsoldier says:

      BBC cut off Ian Blackford today and Channel 4 News did the exactly same tonight the very instant he rose to speak in the Commons.

      They want to erase us.

    332. ronnie anderson says:

      Big Tammy Doft tae aw oor SNP MPs an didn’t that wee lassie Mhairi Black gei them Bastwards ah telling . Now look to the future of a Independent Holyrood with all those Mps at present taking their MSPs seats Onward n Upward .

    333. Simon Curran says:

      I thought Michael Goves speech was interesting saying that Corbyns defence policies, getting rid off Trident etcetera would make us like Costa Rica. Last time I looked Costa Rica wasn’t been threatened with invasion and her national security was okay. Sounds like a great way to go!

    334. jfngw says:

      Reporting Scotland went to Perth and done some vox pops, amazingly they seemed not able to find anyone that supported Remain or independence. Mind you 2 of the 4 had distinctly non Scottish accents.

      Remember if you want your vox pop on the BBC you need to abide by their rules.

    335. Sarah says:

      @ Schrodinger’s Cat at 7.40: Kirsty Blackman SNP says that SNP position is NOT the one you are quoting. See Scot goes pop twitter about an hour ago.

      I wonder why the rumour about SNP not supporting another VONC has arisen?

    336. PacMan says:

      Shinty says:16 January, 2019 at 6:34 pm

      https://twitter.com/IanBlackfordMP/status/1085559361852882944

      If you watch it all, Stephen Kerr gets telt by the speaker, and Douglas Ross gets telt by Ian Blackford.

      At about 5m 19secs into clip, Corbyn turns away in disgust and rolls his eyes at a reasonable plea from Blackford to join the SNP and other parties against the Tories.

      He has learned not caught muttering under his breath.

    337. Robert J. Sutherland says:

      Elizabeth Stanley @ 19:40,

      Good to have you back. I agree with your conclusion. Given the stalemate and the complete dysfunction of both main political parties, a hopeless slide into a default no-deal looks far more likely than ever. Which indeed gives us the best possible opportunity for an out.

      It’s not a good prospect for EngWaland, though. Nicola has been taking flak for it, but to her credit she has been trying to save them from themselves, and making for an easier transition to indy.

      But if there is going to be a hard border somewhere, best to have it elsewhere than where our own best future lies.

    338. Capella says:

      Watching that cringe fest in the HoC has served to remind me how much I loathe and detest Tories. Good news for an independence vote though.

      Gove is a clever wee lying snake in the grass. No offence to snakes intended. It was a barnstorming speech he gave, unfortunately peppered with lies and mendacity as ever. Highlights the problem with the structure of HoC debates when there is no opportunity to call out the lies and they get away with it.

      So glad to hear that Rock’s in moderation. I can stand anything in moderation except racism.

    339. frogesque says:

      Reminder:

      Scot Parly demo/HOOP rally tomorrow.

      11.00am to 3.00pm

    340. Giving Goose says:

      jfngw

      Re the voxpox (no spelling mistake) in Perth.
      Why don’t those interviewed blow up their inflatable spitfires with their hot air and fly off to sunny uplands (preferably not in Scotland).

    341. jfngw says:

      The no confidence support quote seems to come from a TalkRadio journo. Someone didn’t answer a question so it becomes a denial. It’s from the ‘Is Salmond still your friend’ school of journalism, basically just something made up. What they would call fake news if someone just posted it on twitter but will be considered to have full veracity as it was a ‘journalist’ that tweeted it.

    342. Thepnr says:

      What this all boils down to now is which way will Corbyn jump?

      If the UK crashes out of the EU without a deal then you can blame Corbyn because it’s absolutely certain that a second referendum on the EU would come about with his support.

      May’s deal is never going to change substantially enough to gat parliaments support so all we’re left with is no deal or a 2nd vote.

      Corbyn might as well hang himself now if he doesn’t back the 2nd vote option as his time as leader will be over.

      No deal is chaos, the government will fall but guess what?

      Just who is capable of taking their place out of that lot? That’s right absolutely no one. This will of course be the best the result as regards support for Independence. At least I imagine it will be.

      Kind of makes me torn, as I would like an assurance now that we will remain in the EU. Beggars can’t be choosers so bring on Indy Ref 2 ASAP after the Brexit destination is known and we’ll be out of here. A No deal will make that certain.

    343. Macart says:

      Once again, result entirely as expected. Once again, UK politics in deadlock chaos. Once again, Treeza vows to deliver Brexit. Wants chinwag with party leaders.

      Brexit and ensuing political chaos brought to you in Scotland courtesy of Ruth, Kezia and thingy.

      Popcorn? 😎

    344. Petra says:

      Great to hear that Michelle Thompson has returned to the fold and that there will no doubt be a place for her at Holyrood in the very near future, one of our many Embassies, the EU or whatever.

      Next up Alex X As Nicola said on Sky today, Alex her friend for over 30 years.

      Alex and Nicola two of OUR very best ”friends”.

      …………………………….

      @ Thepnr says at 5:50 pm …. ”Rock – See you weren’t immortal. Mibbe catch up again in 2640 AD ?”

      Is that the wee runt gone now? It really beggars belief that he lasted for so long cutting / pasting the same data constantly, clogging up the site, and distorting individual’s prior posts (a form of bullying as someone pointed out earlier), such as I had tried to blackmail Stu and then snuck in the back door, FGS. Let’s hope that he’s just slunk out of the same back door and it’s slammed shut, tightly, behind him.

    345. Elizabeth Stanley says:

      Thank-you Robert J.

      Goodness knows where we go from here. I’m getting a little tired of all this wait & see & the same rhetoric for months from the Cons.

      I think England has to save herself.Being English born I know about these things,splutter!

    346. yesindyref2 says:

      @Rock
      Could you give us your views on the result of the VONC?

      Really?

      2640 you say before there’s another?

      Well, can you state that with 110% confidence?

      *slap* *slap* ooopsy 🙂

    347. robbo says:

      10 DUP members save the government!

      1. Hate Catholics 1st and foremost!
      2. Hate all gays of any description!
      3. Are climate change deniers
      4. Don’t believe dinosaurs ever existed
      5. They believe in GOD but only from 2000 bc
      6. Strongly support brexit but have an eu country right on their doorstep that they don’t believe their borders shouldn’t be protected
      7. Are stealing oxygen that should be given to the needy!

      I’ve probably forgot many many more

    348. geeo says:

      Another box ticked, another option gone.

      Whats left now ?

      EU ref2

      Revoke A.50

      No deal brexit.

      Revoke A.50 has ZERO Chance. It is THE final ‘hail mary’ option to try stop indyref2, but it is political suicide for whoever uses it due to the obvious leaver backlash.

      Plus, imagine having to admit, that Scotland is THAT important to those you have spent 300 years convincing that they subsidise Scotland and Scots.

      So important, they cannot have brexit.

      So no revoking A.50 then.

      A 2nd EU ref seems equally as unlikely to me, especially after today’s vote.

      Why would they (tories) agree, after all, that risks no brexit (see issues with that in previous scenario).

      Problem here is, there is no majority for No deal, or so we are told, but if the tories have shown us anything tonight, they put party over country EVERY time they are asked to choose.

      Would they really put a 2nd EU ref as a priority over a no deal brexit, if a 2nd EU ref meant that brexit was cancelled and the majority of their voter base were left utterly furious ?

      I personally believe they would back no deal brexit over that ecenario.

      So that leaves No Deal brexit v Independence.

      That suits us just fine.

      Its almost as if the Scotsgov have been planning for this scenario..!!

    349. Maid_in_Scotland says:

      jfngw @ 7.46 “Reporting Scotland went to Perth and done some vox pops, amazingly they seemed not able to find anyone that supported Remain or independence. Mind you 2 of the 4 had distinctly non Scottish accents.”

      That reminds me of the Daily Mirror journalist (she pops up on TV a lot and waffles nonsense mostly) who journeyed north during the IndyRef1 campaign (she luuuuuuves Scotland, but don’t they all when it suits them). Travelling from Gretna to John O’Groats she couldn’t find one, not one, person who would be voting YES. Upon entering into the most northern landward counties (she missed Orkney and Shetland altogether) she managed to track down 2 people by the name of O’Brien and O’Neil who were definitely voting NO. We independence-minded Scots are obviously awfy good at hiding under bushels when folk are looking for us.

    350. schrodingers cat says:

      Sarah

      i think you missed the thread, i was replying to this comment
      ================

      Robert J. Sutherland says:
      16 January, 2019 at 7:24 pm
      schrodingers cat @ 19:03:

      the only option supported by all opposition mps is a vonc/ge.

      So much for that fact theory. The VONC has just failed. The SNP and others have declared that they won’t support another.

      Good try, but no cigar.
      —————————

      i doubted that it was true simply because it would mean the snp abstaining or voting with the tories.

      your comment pointing to a twitter thread confirmed that it wasnt true, so thanks for that.

    351. ronnie anderson says:

      Rev U never answered ma 5.48 post but ah’ll no hud it against U ah knew who U mean onnyhows ah jist wanted U tae say it again lol.

    352. schrodingers cat says:

      just watch the daily politics, ugh, labour mp demanding the gov take “no deal” off the table??

      im not sure how that works, its like standing on a cliff edge demanding the ground be removed before you jump??

      the tory mp then pushed the lab mp to clarify labs position on whether they would now move directly to calling for euref2 or whether they would continue with calls for more vonc. she wouldnt answer.

    353. Theresa was dead yesterday and Corbyn just resurrected her today.

    354. jockmcx says:

      No worries,we’re in safe hands.There’s a discussion.

      http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=k_g_oQfHsgQ

      helpmaboab!

    355. Brian Doonthetoon says:

      Wouldn’t it be fine if, when Rev Stu reads Rox comments in pre-moderation, he deletes anything that is purely composed of copy/pastes of other Wingers’ comments?

      We’ve read them at least once so we don’t need Rox assistance to read them again.

      If he has something fresh to offer, fairy nuff but his regular evening input just had me scrolling past. There was nothing windswept and interesting about it.

    356. Petra says:

      @ auld highlander says at 7:47 pm …….

      https://sputniknews.com/europe/201901161071536758-parliament-BBC-Ian-Blackford/

      Thanks for that link auld highlander.

      And the BBC (Sky etc) says that it isn’t biased!? To my mind they should keep it up as more and more people are seeing right through them. Additionally, day after day they have everyone and their granny on their political programmes, everyone that is other than the SNP. Or the occasional SNP politician gets an ”invite”, such as Kirsty Blackman who was on yesterday but couldn’t get a word in for big head, big mouth Jo Swinson – all orchestrated by Jo Coburn, of course.

      They’ve got their presenters and so on wandering all over England talking to the (selected) locals. Scotland, Wales and Northern Ireland don’t get a look in – don’t exist. The same attitude adopted by the Unionists at Westminster. I just can’t wait to get out of this and see the look on their faces when we say, with Mhairi Black as the leader-off, ”Ta Ta Bella your bums all yella.”

    357. schrodingers cat says:

      @rjs
      UPDATE 2: Kirsty Blackman, the SNP Deputy Westminster Leader, has now explicitly confirmed to Evolve that the SNP will definitely be supporting any second or third confidence motion against the Tories.

      nice try, but no cigar 🙂

    358. Macart says:

      Oh, sweet baby Jebus! The couch pundits and their hot takes. 😀 LOLMAGEDDON

      Watching a right shower discussing Treeza, Jezza and wotsisface from the Libdems… Vince Sellout. That fella.

      Not a single mention of the third largest party in chamber, or the population and treaty partner they require to even survive a Brexit of any description. The utter lack of awareness, the casual ignorance and the dearth of knowledge is breathtaking.

      There wasn’t a hope in hell that vote was going to unseat a government tonight. Even on the remote off chance it did? The most shocked person in the chamber (I guarantee you) would have been Jeremy Corbyn. 😀

      May has been selected as scapegoat. The bod to carry the can for Brexit. THAT is her function.

      Bugger! Running short on snackage.

    359. geeo says:

      Kirsty Blackman on Sky News.

      Nailed the rumour about not backing future VONC motions, no matter how many there are.

      KB: “No way will i stand in there and back the Tory government”

      Murnaghan: “you could abstain or not turn up”

      KB: “no, if will vote against this conservative government if i get the opportunity to do so”
      ……

      Clear enough to me.

      Shes a wee firecracker !! Love it.

    360. Thepnr says:

      @mike cassidy

      Like Nana I had no luck in trying to find an online full version of “A Poem in Praise of the British” by Douglas Dunn.

      I did find this though during the search, look away now all those that hate poetry as I used to think I did. Some sweary words too for those easily offended you have been warned 🙂

      Bus by Gearóid Mac Lochlainn

      I left the house, said fuck all to her, just walked out, said Joe
      And I’m hurryin for the bus all fuckn stressed out
      I’m joggin’ down the fuckn hill and my ulcer’s on fire
      And I can hardly breathe trying to catch this fuckn bus, man
      And then I missed the fucker of a bastard bus by about ten seconds

      Fuckn disaster
      I’m watching the fucker drive away
      Blowing smoke fumes in my face

      So I had to hang about on the Saintfield Road
      Just hangin about like
      Waiting on the next bus

      Just waiting there, doin fuck all, dying for a pint
      Just mindin my own business, like
      When I see one of the middle class prods
      From down the bottom end of the street
      Walkin towards me. An I’m noddin hello
      And bein polite an all, and hows it goin an all

      Because I know his face
      And we live in the same middle-class proddy street
      And the war’s all over and all that crap
      Fucksake

      And then I’m thinkin
      That maybe he even thinks I’m one of them
      Cos I say fuck all and keep a low profile
      And why wouldn’t ya?
      It’s not like I wanna socialise with my prod neighbours
      They might burn me out
      Except they’re all middle class
      And don’t do that type of thing

      Up there…

      But they’d probably shop ya to the dole
      For bein a poor fenian
      Ya know

      But anyway, he’s walkin right up to
      And he’s gonna speak to me…
      And I’m wonderin what’s goin on, like
      And he stops and asks me for a light
      And so I fumble about and dig out the lighter
      And it’s like a wee bit windy, so I try to light the lighter
      And I hold up the flame, and it goes out
      And then I say sorry and light it again
      And it’s still windy

      So he cups his hands over the top of mine
      And makes a wee windshield for the flame, see
      And he lights his feg
      And he thanks me

      And he walks on down the road
      And then the next bus comes
      And I get on the bus
      And I’m sittin on the bus
      And I’m thinkin this was all really strange
      I’m thinkin that he touched me
      He touched me

      Like his hands touched mine
      when I gave him the light, see

      And I’m rollin down the Ormeau Road on the bus
      And I’m thinking it’s the first time
      I’ve ever been touched by a Protestant

      And I’m feeling strange
      About the whole thing
      He touched my hands, you know…
      He touched me

      *****

    361. Cubby says:

      Excellent speeches from Thewliss and Black.

      Thewliss highlighted just how heartless and disgusting the Tories are. Sanctioned for visiting your dying father.

    362. Sarah says:

      @Schrodinger’s Cat – pleased to be useful! Doesn’t happen often…

    363. Brian Doonthetoon says:

      RE: Douglas Dunn.

      I found the final link here by going to the Internet Archive and entering “Douglas Dunn” in the search bar (not the Wayback Machine).

      https://archive.org

      This turned up:-

      https://archive.org/details/151828507992964be985fabd22e09da577bea8d1e8af5165164919dbe61094da57881c4202

      At that link, I clicked on the “Usage” link, and got to this, via an intermediary link. Don’t know if it’s of any use to yooz.

      https://www.bbc.co.uk/sounds/play/b09qq3cg

    364. Thepnr says:

      @Brian Doonthetoon

      Certainly the right guy, unfortunately i couldn’t get any further as I won’t register with the BBC 🙁

      Never mind, I think all we’re looking for anyway is a cut and paste version of the full words to the poem “A Poem in Praise of the British” by Douglas Dunn

    365. yesindyref2 says:

      Fake news eh, just goes to show I was taken in by it, it seemed like a reasonable idea!

    366. Robert J. Sutherland says:

      schrodingers cat @ 20:45,

      Fair enough, so far as the SNP goes anyway. (We haven’t heard from the others.)

      This came about it seems because of a real suspicion that Labour’s next cunning plan was to have a rolling programme of VONCs (see nana’s references upthread) in the vain hope that one of them might eventually actually work. (Ref Albert Einstein about doing the same thing over and over again and expecting different results.) More magic realist thinking over Brexit, this time from Labour.

      Pointless wasteful attritional warfare. (Fits exactly with the article’s headline photo, mind you. How prescient.) The only actual effect in this case would be to assist May by helping talk down the clock towards a no-deal Brexit.

      None of which however sustains your own magic realist assertion that a VONC will eventually deliver a UKGE in time. Which is the real point, after all.

    367. Big Jock says:

      Labour Whips?Verified account @labourwhips 50m50 minutes ago
      Follow Follow @labourwhips Following Following @labourwhips Unfollow Unfollow @labourwhips Blocked Blocked @labourwhips Unblock Unblock @labourwhips Pending Pending follow request from @labourwhips Cancel Cancel your follow request to @labourwhips
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      • Copy link to Tweet
      • Embed Tweet
      In the #HoC @CommonsLeader confirms that the PM will make a statement and table a motion under s.13 on Monday. She also announces that the Govt will comply with the Act by providing time to debate and vote on Brexit next steps on Tues 29 Jan.

      Are the SNP going to let her drift this along for another 2 weeks!!!!!!!

    368. Big Jock says:

      Motion 13

      Before the UK may ratify any withdrawal agreement between the UK and the European Union as an international treaty, certain statutory conditions must be met. These are set out in section 13(1) of the European Union (Withdrawal) Act 2018. One of these conditions requires the House of Commons to approve, by resolution, the negotiated withdrawal agreement and a joint statement between the UK and the EU on the future framework of relations between the two.
      This statutory provision presents the House with a unique and unfamiliar task, since it does not have a right to approval or veto of a treaty prior to ratification. The statutory requirement for an approval motion to be passed by the House of Commons, as a necessary precondition for ratification of a withdrawal agreement, has focused attention on the procedure in the House which ought to apply to the debate and decision on the approval motion and any amendments which might be tabled to it.
      The Procedure Committee has undertaken a short inquiry into the procedural issues raised for the House in its discharge of this statutory task. The Committee on Exiting the European Union asked us to consider the procedure to be followed when the House decides on an amendable motion. Subsequently the Government gave its views on the procedure to be followed. It suggested that the nature of the decision to be taken required a procedure which would in all circumstances allow the House to first of all give its decision on a motion proposed by the Government, before moving to decide on any amendments proposed to the motion.
      Under the House’s existing procedures, a vote on any approval motion will be subject to the Standing Orders governing proceedings under an Act of Parliament: that is, the vote must take place after a debate of no more than 90 minutes, and only one amendment to the approval motion is likely to be selected and voted upon. There is widespread agreement that this procedure does not meet the expectations of the House, and of the general public, for a debate on a decision of this significance: in October 1971 the debate on a motion to approve the UK’s entry into the European Economic Community, on the terms negotiated by the Government, lasted for 55 hours over six days.
      The House must therefore determine the procedure which it wishes to apply to the debate and decision on any approval motion. The Committee has set out three possible models: in each case there are further possible variations which may be introduced. These models are:
      the usual practice of the House, modified so as to allow the Speaker to call more than one amendment for decision at the end of debate;
      a procedure based on the existing procedure for decision on motions on Opposition days, where the House is invited to decide on the motion originally tabled before deciding on any amendments to it;
      a procedure which will allow indicative decisions on a series of freestanding motions expressing alternative views on the withdrawal agreement, prior to a vote on the statutory motion as tabled.

      This is just going through the motions. Section 13 cannot veto it’s a talking shop!!!

      She is hanging on as long as possible to get a no deal and the opposition are playing right into her hands. She doesn’t want her deal approved!

    369. Terence callachan says:

      So the DUP win again
      The Irish border is the only manoevreability Theresa May has
      What will she do

    370. Terence callachan says:

      A poem in praise of the British by Douglas Dunn has likely been removed from the Internet by the author .
      It was written a long time ago it’s possible he does not want it used in the current political situation we find ourselves in.

    371. Robert J. Sutherland says:

      schrodingers cat @ 20:45 (17.Jan),
      me @ 01:15,

      Further on that point, here’s a link from today’s bag from the ever-vigilant nana:

      https://twitter.com/KirkySNP/status/1085506873611161601

      Seems that the FibDems at least are ruling nothing out…

      Put yourself for a mo’ in May’s leopard-print shoes, peeps. Why on earth would she willingly go for a UKGE? Nothing to gain and much to lose. She is now working assidously to keep the DUP onside. They just have to keep her going and by default they’ll get the no-deal Leave they want.

      Is May herself, after all the bluffing is over, prepared to capitulate at the eleventh hour over the Tory/DUP red lines in order to avoid a no-deal exit…?



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