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Wings Over Scotland

The new order

Posted on May 25, 2019 by

This video is 20 minutes long, and most of you won’t watch it all the way through. But you really should.

Because the UK is changing, and it’s changing fast.

In the late spring of 2014 we went to a UKIP rally in Bath, and came to a conclusion:

“What I believe more firmly than ever after this evening is that the party’s supporters will vote tactically and smartly next year to ensure that David Cameron returns to 10 Downing Street in such a way that he’ll be locked into holding an EU referendum. Even Nigel Farage doesn’t think Nigel Farage is going to be the Prime Minister, and that means Cameron is the only route to their goal.

And from what I heard tonight, even in a longtime Lib Dem city that owes much of its livelihood to European tourists, and as such is both familiar and comfortable with “foreigners”, that referendum is only going to go one way.”

It doesn’t seem too immodest to note that we called it. But the events covered by Sky News today have a very different tone to the one that day. While the 2014 crowd was enthusiastic and delivered several standing ovations to Nigel Farage and his chums, it was mostly pretty quiet and sober. Nobody waved placards. Nobody shouted.

In the European election that followed a few weeks later, UKIP won with 27% of the vote in the UK, although they came a distant 4th in Scotland, just barely scraping a single seat with 10%, seven points behind the Tories in 3rd.

(A result which was of course gleefully reported by the Unionist media and opposition as somehow proving that Scotland was no different politically to the rest of the UK, and the SNP winning the election with almost three times UKIP’s vote was assessed as a “severe blow to Alex Salmond”).

UKIP had edged out Labour and the Tories by just a couple of points (24% and 23% respectively). As we write this we’re still waiting for the results of Thursday’s vote, but the last polls conducted beforehand showed a dramatically different picture.

In most polls, Farage’s new Brexit Party was set to pick up more votes than Labour and the Conservatives combined. The Tories (and the embarrassed rump of UKIP, which has morphed into the extremist fringe racist party its critics always said it was) have been obliterated as a European political force in Britain. The best polls put them 14 points behind the Brexit Party, the worst a breathtaking 26 points behind.

The straw that broke the camel’s back was the six-month extension to Article 50 that the UK government agreed in early April. The threadbare patience of exasperated Tory voters expired overnight and the party’s support – which was nudging 40% as recently as mid-March – dropped as swiftly as a condemned man through a trapdoor.

It now trails Labour consistently in Westminster polling, and the vagaries of the UK electoral system (which would still severely restrict the number of MPs the Brexit Party and Lib Dems could hope to secure) mean that a general election now would almost certainly return Jeremy Corbyn to Downing Street, dependent on the backing of the SNP – a combination that’s the Conservative Party’s worst nightmare.

What that means, of course, is that there’s almost no chance that the new Prime Minister, whoever it turns out to be, will dare to call a general election to try to resolve Brexit before the new 31 October deadline – already a basically impossible task.

And given how furious Leave voters were at the last extension, it chills the blood to imagine how hacked off they’ll be at another one. Because it’s no more likely to produce a result in the current deadlocked Parliament than the last three years have been, and Leavers will get angrier and angrier with every day that passes without Brexit being delivered.

Another long extension could – and very likely would – see a mass desertion of Westminster voters from the Tories on the sort of scale that’s (probably) just happened at the Euro elections, transforming the UK political scene on an unprecedented level and raising a genuine prospect of Nigel Farage becoming Prime Minister in 2022 – something he could never have dreamed of in UKIP.

The EU election was a warning shot, demonstrating just how willing Tory voters are to act. The new PM will only have one way to avoid the absolute and probably permanent destruction of the Conservative Party – to carry out a no-deal Brexit by October. Leavers are in no mood to tolerate any sort of deal any longer.

And while polls consistently show that Remain would win a second referendum and is solidly preferred to no deal, the political situation simply doesn’t offer a plausible route to that outcome, for the reasons noted above.

Thanks to the individual and collective stupidity of Theresa May and Jeremy Corbyn (and Kezia Dugdale), the Tories can’t be forced out until 2022, they can’t afford not to deliver Brexit by then, and no deal is the only certain way to do it.

You don’t need to watch a 20-minute video to grasp that intellectually. But you might need to watch it to really feel it. The UK has already gone over the cliff and there’s no going back – we’re just waiting for the impact and praying for Superman to intervene, which he isn’t going to because he doesn’t exist.

Scotland is fast running out of time to deploy the only parachute.

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  1. 25 05 19 12:56

    The new order | speymouth

  2. 26 05 19 11:00

    Names in Red and Black | A Wilderness of Peace

284 to “The new order”

  1. Rob Outram

    So, so depressing. Even more so when you think we could have avoided all of it in 2014. I’m one of those who trust Nicola Sturgeon re the timing of indyref2 but think that the window is closing fast.

    I have no doubt that there are multiple focus groups going on to gauge public opinion and can only presume they are not yet giving the green light she wants. Unfortunately they may not ever. Beginning to think it’s really now or never.

  2. Lenny Hartley

    I think the remainers will manage to get a vote in Parliament in October, either for No deal or No brexit, if they can win it which will be difficult as the Tories will be told by the new leader that if you vote against the govt you wont get selected for the GE which will follow if there is a remain victory.

  3. Sandy Brownlee

    Excellent if chilling analysis. We need the lifeboat now.

    “seven points behind even the Lib Dems”

    I think you meant “seven points behind even the Conservatives” there…

  4. Betty Boop

    Truly scary Stu.

    By the way, who has broken YouTube today? I haven’t been able to play anything on YT this morning without a black screen and an error message coming up.

  5. Bob Mack

    A very accurate analysis Rev. The whole of the UK has been used for political expediency by all parties.
    Blame foreigners for everything has been used with great success just as it was in Nazi Germany and many other countries. Once you open that particular genie there is no putting it back in the bottle.

    People are actually stupid enough to believe every word. Davidson is trying the same here by cosy in up to the Orange Order to release another “gin” best kept under wraps.

    Politicians in order to survive must create mass hysteria about something .

    My experience in life and at work tells me one thing. Act in haste ,regret at leisure.

    It will be a no deal Brexit to maintain the Tory vote. I hope Nicolas et Al are as politically astute as yourself Rev, because the time to act gas already passed by and we must try to be ready sooner rather than later.

  6. bookie from hell

    guy 14:33 at brexit rally back left chair behind farage clapping enthusiastically is always on sky news paper review

  7. McDuff

    Desperate times for Scotland and not of its choosing.

  8. craig

    Wow, this is some analysis Stu, I got the hebbie jeebies when you mentioned that it is entirely possible that Farage could be the UK Prime Minister and that is one shit storm that I really don’t want to live through.

    We need to get our independence before this becomes a reality.

    I’m genuinely concerned now.

  9. Chris Downie

    I’ve argued since 2016 that if the result of the first EU referendum is somehow overturned, then the following GE will see a Tory/UKIP/DUP (add Brexit Party to that now) coalition, who will push for a ‘best of three’ scenario. Remainers in England may be more vocal and enjoy wider mainstream media support, but they can’t wish this away. The direction of travel in England is clear and they will have to leave the EU at some point, either by hook or by crook.

    I despair at the SNP’s happy clappers, who insist that “oor Nicola” (referring to a politician by first name terms is creepy enough) has a grand plan for all this and is just keeping her powder dry. If I didn’t know better, I’d say she and her husband (along with the now-career politicians and backroom staff) are counting on scraping through the 2021 election as a minority administration, where they will enjoy another five years of relatively unchallenged power, but with no ‘mandate’ to enforce another risky referendum – and no pressure to deliver independence.

  10. HandandShrimp

    The challenges posed by Brexit and the snake oil of Farage make Boris or Raab front runners. By choosing a barking Brexiteer the Tories might well hold off the insubstantial puff that is the Brexit Party but it is academic because we will have a Brexit Party in all but name in Boris or Raab.

    This has more twists and turns than a slinky descending a spiral staircase.

  11. Abulhaq

    a MUST WATCH vid. for all Scots.
    The label is on the can, further comment is superfluous.

  12. Scottish Steve

    Boris Johnson or Nigel Farage as PM. I don’t know which prospect is more terrifying. We need to get off the sinking HMS Britannia and fast.

  13. DerekM

    Having been in discussion with the brexit folks of England since 2016,i think we Scots have to remember that we have the SNP England do not.

    This is a full blown grassroots movement in its infancy they are not sure what they want but they know its got to be better than what they have.

    I think Nigel if he does not bend to this movements will he will be chucked off the bandwagon.

    We must get the message across to them that if they wish Brexit then the UK must end as it is the UK that is stopping them from doing any of this.

  14. Thomas Valentine

    Seems like what will happen in Scotland will be determined by what’s happening in England. Obvious as always. Tory and Labour politicians in Hollyrood can’t act locally because they have to be obsequiously obedient to their bosses in London.

    This should really be seen as an advantage to the SNP. Davidson and Leonard will be too fearful of saying anything that upsets their panicked London superiors. They will constantly feel the need to seek permission for every statement. Meanwhile the SNP and Greens can react to immediately to events the UK party politicians will be silent till long after or simply parrot UK leader’s statements.

    The media looking for go straight to the biggest party names who speak first. Creating the impression English Labour and Conservative leaders only ever being responded to by a single Scottish voice, the SNP. The media will never pick Davidson over the a Tory UK Prime Minister or Leonard over Corbyn.
    Neither London leader will be speaking considering any possible SNP response. Their minds will be on each other and the Brexit supporters in England. It will create the effect of a live SNP speaker talking about Scotland and a screen in the background playing Boris Johnson mouthing off about “Eng… I mean the UK”.

    The GAP just keeps getting wider. So called British leaders will feel the need, if they speak about Scotland at all, to please the English voters by belittling and sneeringly insulting Scotland. How long can Tory and Labour voters here maintain the struggle to believe “but they’re not talking about US”?

  15. DerekM

    oh and yes they have their idiots all movements do,and yes they get bad press or do you think that only happens in Scotland.

  16. Jockanese Wind Talker

    Depressing but not surprising.

    This is what the unquestioning defence of Unionism at any cost in Scotland by the media and in particular the BBC State Broadcaster has ensured will decide for us, will subjugate us because it will (however short term) govern everyone of us!

    Some absolute full on Blood and Soil British Nationalism there:

    “Lets not be afraid of our flag, lets not be afraid of our identity, lets be proud to be British”

    “To believe in Brexit IS to believe in Britain”

    “The purer the Brexit, the purer your love of Britain”.

    “We are as powerful if not more powerful than the EU so any compromise with them (the EU) is betrayal”

    Particularly delusional old woman who says “We beat Germany twice and we’ll beat them again” when asked if the EU or UK hold the cards even though the EU has 15 Trillion $ economy and UK has a 2 Billion $ one.

    The well organised Brexit Party ‘Grassroots’ looks suspiciously well funded and ‘Astroturf’ in nature.

    It now seriously looks like the UK will have a No Deal Brexit

    If that No Deal Brexit is not delivered by the Tories it will also have Prime Minister FaRadge (No Typo) who will make sure it is delivered for his Disaster Capitalist backers.

    FaRadge has become the “Hurrah for the Blackshirts” Daily Mail and Murdoch endorsed 21st Century Oswald Mosley.

    GSTQ & Her Fascist Regime, coming to Westminster soon.

    On the Brightside this has to be worth at the very least another 5% transfer of Soft NOs to Hard YESs.

    Looking like England will deliver Scottish Independence and that Boris or FaRadge will be it’s midwife!

  17. Ann

    I will say one thing after watching the video.

    Third Reich. Nigel Farage is a dangerous dangerous man.

  18. ScottieDog

    I listened to a couple of his rallies (or parts of) and yes it was 1930s Germany all over again.

    If we are to have another Scottish election before a future indyref we need to be standing ‘independent’ candidates who support independence on the list. Farage has already said he will stand brexit candidates if we get that far.

  19. Clootie

    In my view a flawless assessment of the path ahead.

    The Tories are hemmed in.
    Do they commit ritual suicide?
    A last attack and a glorious death?
    Or out-Brexit the Brexiteers

    My money is on the last

  20. Abulhaq

    @DerekM 12:15
    The SNP has absolutely nothing in common with this Faragist cult. This phenomenon is a manifestation of English revanchism. For the emergent British Union of Faragists this is payback time for what they see as the humiliation of being ‘submerged’ in the European Union.
    The references to historic war, notions of former greatness, patriotic symbols and betrayal fit the pattern. England lost an empire and has never got over it. The UK is on the move to political pastures new and its establishment will move with it.
    Scotland is marginal now, the indicators suggest worse to come.
    Our leaders must now act.

  21. DerekM

    What is bizarre is that we are joined together in that we can give them what they want by them giving us what we want hmmm.

  22. Muscleguy

    The question is how will those working class supporters react when the sunlit uplands they are being sold crash down around them. The planes won’t fly, the Ferries won’t sail, the Eurostar won’t run, imports will dry up because the ships won’t be sailing or docking.

    On a hard Brexit there will be NOBODY recognised certifying that things are safe and standards compliant and in that situation there will be no insurance so nothing will move.

    The EU and the Commission will let it happen, let the fully chaotic horror of it happen. Let the tearful people denied holidays or those stranded overseas fill the TV screens. Let the pictures of empty supermarket shelves paint the story, let the power cuts (no more French nuclear electricity coming across the channel) tell the story. Let the mass sackings tell the story.

    Then they will offer to talk about access to the European standards bodies, but when the British negotiators get there there will be the small matter of the Withdrawl Agreement with the backstop to be agreed first.

    A hard Brexit does not mean no agreement with the EU needs to happen. That is a pipe dream and the UK will be a basket case coming cap in hand and desperate. If Farage things the WA is a defeatist document it will be as nothing to what will come.

    There is no getting away with this, no government issued assurances and guarantees will make up for hard commercial reality. If they accept their insurers will walk away and rate them as a bad risk. Many vessels are chartered rather than owned and the owners will put the plug on any deal as it will be their assets put at risk.

    Consider stockpiling later as Oct1 approaches. I’m genuinely gluten intolerant and I rely on things like rice flour, tapioca flour, buckwheat flour all imported.

    Sturgeon needs to pull finger and DO SOMETHING, the certainty is staring her in the face and it is horrible.

  23. DerekM

    @ Abulhaq

    Sounding like a Scottish unionist there my friend perhaps you did not understand this is a grassroots movement their goal is brexit no deal they will use who ever they can to achieve this.

    Sound familiar

  24. dandydons1903

    Its hightime Sturgeon stopped mucking around and got indyref2 going, otherwise a fuhrer Farage and his blackshirt englanders future awaits. Who the hell wants that?!

  25. Daniel

    But how would Johnson or any other Brexiter Tory PM get No Deal through the Westminster Parliament as it is now? Surely that’s impossible?

  26. gus1940

    Re the ‘We beat Germany twice’ quote can anybody provide the answers to the following:-

    How many divisions (maximum) did each of The UK, France and the US have In The Field at the following times :-
    on 11/11/18

    ‘In the field’ does not include the many US troops who were in France bur still under training prior to going into the line.

  27. geeo

    @chris downie12.06.

    “Remainers in England may be more vocal and enjoy wider mainstream media support”.

    Not sure which planet this is a thing, but it sure ain’t Earth.

    Nice segway into “ESSENPEE BAD” though…*(sigh)*

  28. Douglas

    Scary stuff Rev.

    The problem with recognising the rise of Fascism is that the term is banded about so lightly that there is the ‘crying wolf’ problem.

    I’ve been refreshing my knowledge about the rise of Fascism in 1930s, a couple of long articles have made me feel very very uneasy:

    NY Times 2008


    Guardian 2015

    Although the NY Times article was trying to be more optimistic, it made my blood run cold because in 2008 it listed all the improbable things that had to happen for us to be at risk; many of these unlikely things are falling into place:

    ‘Mercifully, what happened in Germany in 1933, and its aftermath, will remain a uniquely terrible episode in history. What took place then reminds us even so of the illusory assumption that democracy will always be a favored choice of a population torn apart by war, facing enormous privations and burning with resentment at national humiliation through perceived foreign interference.’


    Wars (constant)
    Privations (deliberate enormous privation for those not privileged, Brexit effects coming)
    Humiliation (the world is laughing at the U.K., the ‘elite’ are laughing at you)
    Foreign Interference

    The second article raises the possibility that even concerns for the impending climate effects could be twisted into a ‘lifeboat’ mentality treating those who ‘don’t belong’ as less than human and expendable.

    We view Hitler through the prism of anti NAZI propaganda as an evil buffoon.
    Certainly evil but maybe he was particularly capable at manipulating the worst of human nature.

    We have no shortage of apparent buffoons. I just hope that none actually have the skills to light this particular destructive bonfire.

    Farage is very very dangerous. Maybe he has the skills and funding to do this, if he doesn’t there’s a queue in line behind him ready to have a go.

  29. Awizgonny

    I’d put my money on the Tories absorbing the Brexit policy – and possibly Farage as a member – by 2022.

    It’s not by chance that they’ve survived in one way or another since their beginnings in the late 17th Century.

  30. DerekM

    Look you can argue until the cows come home ,you wanted the English to do something anything well here it is their only road to change.

    The remain bunch are too busy arguing with each other over the red tories and lib dems same old same old,the only ones taking that step is the leave and by their EU election polls it looks like they have had an almighty impact already.

    Look all i am saying is it may be better to talk to these guys before we dismiss them as swivel eyed loons.

    Or start to look like Scottish unionists by calling them a cult.

    No they are just people who get a bad name from the more hardcore element of their support.

    A bit like when our clowns come out you can bet they will be on the tv with some tory mouth piece pinning them front and center of all SNP bad separatist rubbish.

  31. Breeks

    When UKIP was created out the ether, it was a piratical “Privateer” campaign to coral the Tories into a Brexit referendum where frustration and misinformation about Europe, and of course latent prejudice, made the electorate ripe for populist invective, which UKIP then provided in abundance.

    Had the Tories actually delivered Brexit, whether a hard Brexit or Soft Brexit, even perhaps a second referendum, I do not believe we would ever have seen the reemergence of Farage, nor this “new” Brexit Party. I don’t believe all is as it seems.

    I put “new” in brackets, because it isn’t new. And it isn’t really much of a party either. This angry dynamic was the driving force behind Brexit in 2016, except it was called UKIP. It is the very same angry dynamic which sees its desired Brexit slipping away, and has thus rehabilitated Farage, and changed the UKIP colours and bunting for Brexit Party colours and bunting. (It had to, because brand UKIP was tarnished by nut jobs and bigots).

    Farage isn’t for the people, he is a frontman on point, who’s job it is to steer a populist anger that is intended to drive through Brexit at any cost, because Brexit will reward powerful financial crooks with greater anonymity and immoral latitude through deregulation, it will create an economic crisis in the UK which cash rich disaster capitalists can exploit, and at a higher level, I also believe Brexit was intended to be an Exocet missile aimed at the Bridge of the European Union.

    While MI5 have been targeting terrorists and hackers, they have, it would seem, missed an altogether larger, more sinister, and massively dangerous threat to the UK realm, – let’s call it a plot for the want of a better word.

    Brexit in my opinion is actually an attempt to harm Europe, and use the UK economy as the expendable fire-ship sent in to the European harbour with the intention to spread the conflagration. If at first you don’t succeed with UKIP, try and try again with the Brexit Party.

    The real dereliction of political integrity isn’t Theresa being a duff negotiator, but the UK’s naive lack of sophistication in seeing this grand strategy until much, much too late. Maybe that’s because a number of them are actually in on it, and are set to make a financial killing when it happens.

    I forget who it was, but an American commentator said that 19th Century Colonial Imperialism was easy to discern simply by looking at a map. 21st Century Colonial Imperialism has done away with the map.

    It is really important that Europe and the UK infiltrate who and what was behind Brexit. The Brexit Exocet missed the EU Bridge this time, but the UK has suffered serious damage and cannot keep pace with the convoy.

    Scotland’s part in all of this? Token I think. It’s nice to imagine Scotland’s anti Brexit stance is actually a cunning EU plan to somehow undermine this hostile Brexit plot, and somehow keep the whole UK in Europe, but I fear Scotland doesn’t have the leverage or the influence to do that.

    Has Scotland been told to back off and soft pedal Independence because this hostile Brexit themed attack on Europe needs to be defeated first? Meh. I think we definitely are drifting into the land of conspiracy theory…

    But, if I was an MI5 man looking to make a name for myself, I like to think my nose would be twitching because something really stinks about Brexit, stinks about Farage, stinks about the BBC and UK Press, and stinks about “some” of the Tories.

  32. Effijy

    I’m also seeing Brext Party and Tories with 40% between them
    Then they have the DUP Dinosaur Terrorist Party and Lib parasite
    Party will join anyone for a couple of cheap amendments and a
    Sprinkling of Knight Hoods.

    That cabal is way over 50% and can deliver Sir Bungling Boris as our Prine Minister,
    Nazi Nigel as Foreign Secretary and Jolly Hockey Sticks Swinto as
    Scottish Secretay who can in turn liaise with Col Yadafti.

    If you don’t think it’s worth supporting Wings and the SNP you are reading about your future,
    Your children’s future and Scotland’s future.

    It’s all just right around the corner if you don’t take action now!

    On pay day, we need the Wings fund at a new record high as there
    Are new record numbers of reasons to set Scotland free and Independant.

  33. geeo

    My goodness, the litany of “SNP USELESS” grows and grows on here.

    What triggered this hysterical nonsense ?

    Treeza quitting.

    Treeza quits, and suddenly dozens of “SNP USELESS” posts suddenly appear in their droves.

    What would you have her do, persuade Treeza to ‘un-quit”?

    Serious question to those folk.

    What would YOU suggest she do to satisfy your demand for action ?

    Do you have anything or just fixated on ESSENPEE BAD” ?

    Probably a rhetorical question there, as these champs justcwant to undermine the SNP/Indy cause.

  34. Robert Peffers

    @Rob Outram says: 25 May, 2019 at 11:47 am:

    ” … I’m one of those who trust Nicola Sturgeon re the timing of indyref2 but think that the window is closing fast.”

    What is this window you speak about, Rob?

    Now I know you speak figuratively, but just what figurative occurrence is going to slam a window on Scottish Independence if/when a majority of the legally sovereign people of Scotland decide to use their legal sovereignty and tell the English/British Parliament, (that is legally NOT either the English nor the British Parliament the union is over?

    It is, and has been since 1 May 1707 legally the bipartite parliament of the United Kingdo0m and, whether they like it or not, is the view that any genuine international court will rule to be the legal situation.

    In fact even the United Kingdom/English Supreme Court has concluded that to be so and the International Court has agreed in principle. The United Nations has fired more than one shot across Westminster’s bows of late, but both the EU and the United Nations are always reluctant to take, or warn severely, member states who cross the line.

    However, the EU has more or less reconciled itself that, “Britain”, is soon to be no longer a member state and thus democratic protocols will then cease to apply. There is great support for Scotland throughout the EU.

    Where then will the United Nations and the Commonwealth stand in relation to a split up United Kingdom? Remember that the actuality is that when Scotland says the union has ended there cannot be any form of rUnited Kingdom. When a two partner kingdom ends the Status Quo Ante is a return to the pre-treaty status of the two independent kingdoms that agreed the Treaty of Union.

    In actual terms the United Kingdom is exactly that – a bipartite union of kingdoms – it is not, and never has been, legally, a four country union of countries. England was a three country kingdom when it joined the union and it leaves exactly as it joined. There cannot be an rUnited Kingdom as Westminster keeps brainwashing people to believe.

    A good dose of reality will tear the returned to independence Kingdom of England former partner countries apart with Ireland reuniting and Wales attempting to also leave the Kingdom of England.

  35. Craig P

    We are getting a hard brexit, a horrible PM, and things are going to get a lot worse.

    Good, the Scottish electorate need the wake up call.

    Don’t worry, we’re getting Indy – but we’re going to do it the hard way.

  36. galamcennalath

    Consider how we out here …

    1 The big lie of austerity. The real objective was to reduce the size of the state. A right wing idealogical plot achieved by confusing deficit with debt.

    2 Demonising immigrants. Driven by far right media but both Labour and Tories were complicit in the ‘othering’. While the far right ruling class don’t actually worry about immigration, they see it as a tool to whip up hysteria in the masses and control them.

    3 The banking crash. Greed led to a failure of the system. It wasn’t the rich who suffered though.

    4 Misrepresentation of the EU, what it does, and how it works. Again driven by far right media.

    5 An alliance of the far right, English nationalists, and catastrophe capitalists see Brexit as an opportunity to create a low regulation, low wage, poor rights neo liberal ‘utopia’.

    ‘No deal’ is clearly the far right’s ideal outcome with no vestiges of EU oversight.

    Will they achieve this? I’m not so sure. Two thirds of Tory members want it. Fewer than 100 MPs want it. Therein lies the battlefield.

    History will not be kind to whoever facilitates ‘no deal’ Brexit. Achieving it will need to be done by people who value money more than public image.

  37. Juteman

    I made a comment on the ‘Civic Duty’ thread, but nobody seemed to share my worries.
    Someone that worked on a voting station mentioned that almost 30% of the votes in their ward were postal votes.
    Unless we get to grips with postal voting we will never get independence through the ballot box.

  38. Abulhaq

    @DerekM 12:50
    Sounding like what???
    I’ve met the type. I’ve been insulted by them, for who I am and for my Scottish nationalist views.
    Individually, you can handle them. Collectively…..reason, argument, dialogue is impossible.
    Scotland & England are on different trajectories. Revanchism is a heady concept, the same that brought AH to power in Germany.
    We now need nerves and balls of steel!

  39. Robert Peffers

    @Chris Downie says: 25 May, 2019 at 12:06 pm:

    ” … i despair at the SNP’s happy clappers, who insist that “oor Nicola” (referring to a politician by first name terms is creepy enough) …

    Yeah! I’ve always thought calling Theresa, “Theresa”, was really creepy. Never found it so with Nicola, though, for while Nicola goes in among the people, cuddling babies, posing for selfies and talking to anyone and everyone as one of us Theresa arrives in a long motorcade with armed police and even more armed guys in suits. She is rushed into the venue filled with invited guests, says her spiel, gets escorted back out to her armoured vehicle by her armed guards and leaves at speed back to wherever she came.

    Yet read any political blog or website and you will find Theresa being called Theresa and no one acts like you as you have about Nicola. Now I wonder why that might be – or do I?

  40. Clootie

    The Brexit Party requires a “Common Foe” to blame. It needs a hate figure to unite them against the group holding back the restoration of their values in Their Empire/ The Union Flag/ Their Churchillian vision.

    I agree with the many posters, bloggers that when they don’t have the EU to blame then Scotland will join Ireland as “the enemy”.

    The hate has been unleashed and it needs a victim to attack for holding back the new greatness of engerland.

  41. Jack collatin

    “It is not enough to declare ; ‘I believe’.
    I must declare, ‘I fight.”
    I watched the SKY report.
    Thousands of white gammon faced believers.
    Boris Johnson will be crowned, unopposed, in mid June, to counter the England Uber Alles that Farage is now peddling.
    I note that Prof Curtice and the MSDM have not published exit polls; so it must be bad for the Iron Heel Oligarchy,the Elite of whom Farage and his Filthy Rich backers can easily classified.
    The quote at the start of this post?
    Adolf Hitler, 1940.
    If Farage announced that all foreign born citizens were der ported in his first Five Year Plan for the Fourth Riech, this lot of sad old Whities would drop their wee blue placards and Seig Heil the New Fuhrer.
    There’s no way Scotland will remain part of this New England.

  42. Robert Peffers

    @Ann says: 25 May, 2019 at 12:27 pm:

    … I will say one thing after watching the video.
    Third Reich. Nigel Farage is a dangerous dangerous man.”

    100% right, Ann. That thought also crossed my mind with vague memories of WWII Pathe news films of Nuremberg, (infamous for Hitler’s Nazi Party propaganda rallies).

  43. Robert Peffers

    @Abulhaq says: 25 May, 2019 at 12:38 pm:

    ” … the indicators suggest worse to come.
    Our leaders must now act.”

    You think so? Oh! Wait! I forgot for a moment that you were better equipped and informed that, “Our Leaders”, Abulhaq.

    That is assuming your leaders are the same people as our leaders, of course.

  44. Ian Brotherhood

    More power to Lewis Goodall – must’ve taken some balls to face that angry mob.

  45. starlaw

    Brexit will now go on to take over Tory MPs by threatening to put up a candidate against them in the next GE. Perhaps even doing the same to labour MPs Farage will have the MPs with the lowest majorities in his back pocket. Boris Johnston has one of the lowest majorities in the country, who will now run the country, Boris or the unelected Farage. Scotland had better get out of here fast.

  46. schrodingers cat

    disagree with this prediction stu, without a ge, bojo has absolutely no chance of passing a no deal brexit motion past the present make up of the hoc.

    prevaricating about the bush by bojo until we depass the extension date without a deal and drop out of the eu on the default position of no deal is a strategy that isnt without risk. the vast majority of all mps are implacably opposed to a no deal brexit, rory the tory has already stated he would not support a bojo no deal government. It risks these mps voting for another option, eg another extension, revoking a50 etc

    your article also assumes that farage and co would oppose a rejuvinated no deal bojo tory party, i think it more likely that the brexit party would join/merge with such a tory party and the raft of newly elected brexit mep would be chosen to stand as tory candidates replacing the raft of deselected tory mps like rory the tory and his ilk?

    Brian Monteith, NE candidate is a shoo in as mep for brexit party, we could see him as the next tory sosfs?

  47. Bill Glen

    Has anyone Considered The constant Statement Ian Blackford makes on a Daily Basis in Westminster,, Scotland Will not be Leaving ?? To me it says that the SNP Has a plan, as has Alway’s Had a Plan,, If you don’t Trust them enough To wait and see what the plan is, Why bother ??

  48. DerekM

    @ Abulhaq

    You used the word cult ,so you presume its okay for you to call them a cult but not okay for yoons to call us a cult.

    Lets say for a second you are an Englishmen you are fed up with the tories and labour and westminster in general and the whole damn rotten cesspit.

    How do you get out of it.

    Look i am not defending Nigel he is a knob but for some reason the people of England have decided to use him to smash the tories,their choice nothing we can do about it except moan like little bitches or deal with them.

    Its going to come to that if we like it or not independent or still in the UK.

    So maybe keeping things polite and diplomatic for once might be a good idea.

  49. robin

    I always have loathed treeza since her ‘now is not the time ‘ mantra.
    I think it was a john Curtis article which said if boris is PM and he wants to simply mark time and do nothing until we hard Brexit on oct31st then theres actually nothing parliament can really do to stop it.
    I suggest he and Europe will lock horns and tell each other to get lost so that we hard Brexit on oct31st when the Brexit party will then become superfluous allowing boris to call a GE 6 months later
    at that point Nicola needs to make the election one about independence as boris has said he isn’t giving out any section 30s

  50. Frank Gillougley

    Ian brotherhood 2.33

    Yeah i too thought he was brave to question that lot at the football stadium and that he was way too smart a commentator to work for Sky.

    Ultimately, I looked at those people at the rally and thought like Ann, – that I was looking at brownshirts. The dynamic and mentality of the mob.

  51. schrodingers cat

    robin says:
    if boris is PM and he wants to simply mark time and do nothing until we hard Brexit on oct31st then theres actually nothing parliament can really do to stop it.
    couldnt the mps vote to revoke a50, whether the pm or the government supported this move or not?

  52. Robert Peffers

    @Craig P says: 25 May, 2019 at 1:48 pm:

    ” … Good, the Scottish electorate need the wake up call.
    Don’t worry, we’re getting Indy – but we’re going to do it the hard way.”

    No, Craig P, the hard way would be for the SG to call an indyref2 too soon – – and then to lose it.

    There is only one right time to call Indyref2 and that time is when we can be sure we will win it. Has any of these experts that post on Wings who obviously believe they know better than the FM backed up by the SG and the SNP legal teams and full time workers shown any proof they know best?

    Some of these would be experts have even posted that Nicola Sturgeon is just too comfortable in her well pair FM’s job and is thus reluctant to act in case she loses her job.

    Now I’m no expert but it strikes me that if Nicola was to call indyref2 and lose the vote her political career would be over before the final results reached the mainland from the Outer Hebrides.

  53. Abulhaq

    If you read the literature, a Brexit UK is envisaged as a mega OFC or Offshore Financial Centre.
    Effectively, such an entity, with a liberal business, wealth and tax régime, might conceivably ‘subvert’ the financial stability of the even the EU. Farage, whose City background is pertinent, would have no problems with such a dispensation.
    Part of that new dispensation is the emergence of individuals with wealth equal to that of medium size states and who use that wealth, through tax avoiding trusts, charities and foundations, to influence global socio-political ‘trends’. Managing their money, however obtained, is a very attractive and lucrative option.
    A independent Scotland would be transitioning into a very dangerous world, no place for the naïve.

  54. frogesque

    @schrodingers cat : 3.05

    Unfortunately the Government of the day controls Parliamentary business. No way Boris or any of the other hard cliff jumpers would make time for the motion to be put and debated. Sure, the are 5 minute bill and members bill but as we have seen, anyone can block these by filibustering.

    If the Speaker ere to be ‘ flexible’ and allow debate then he/ she especially Bercrow wouldn’t last 5 mins

    We now have clarity, Brexit will happen and Scotland must act.

  55. CameronB Brodie

    I suggested that British nationalism was not compatible with the principle of universal human rights, almost thirty years ago. My concern was that right-wing, authoritarian, English nationalism would never allow Scotland a political voice and that Tory bigotry would harm Scotland. I’m not a clairvoyant but the warning signs of an emergent British fascism were visible under Thatcher.


    General description: Rationality is a central idea in economics, law, politics and moral and political philosophy. The demands of rationality have been formulated in different ways in classical and contemporary economics, in political science, in philosophical analysis of practical reason, and in legal theory including law and economics. This course will provide a critical examination of the different ways of characterizing rationality and its requirements. It will also consider the role of rationality in legal and political thought.

  56. Abulhaq

    @Robert Peffers &DerekM
    Plainly we see the current situation from diametrically opposed perspectives.
    Enough polite language, enough jam tomorrow from NS….what the hell do you think we are dealing with? You must have led very sheltered lives if you think the British state is a push over.
    Btw whom the English ultimately choose as their leader would be of little concern to us if the SNP would just snap out of the ‘treading water’ waiting-for-something-to-turn-up mode.

  57. Proud Cybernat

    “…Nicola needs to make the election one about independence as boris has said he isn’t giving out any section 30s.”

    ScotGov is introducing the legislation for a 2nd IndyRef next week in Holyrood. After it is passed by SNP/Greens (after a few months), it then goes to straight HM Queen for Royal Assent (i.e. to make the Bill / IndyRef2 legal).

    That is the point where WM can intervene (or not) by deferring the Bill to the Supreme Court who will then have to FINALLY confront the issue of Scots sovereignty and make a decision. I have no doubt it will go in ScotGov (Scots) favour. We are in an international treaty with England and, as such, we do not need to ask the other treaty partner for the right to ask ourselves a question.

    At no point in the process here does an S30 even come into it.

  58. Golfnut

    @ Proud Cybernat.

    Well said, even though Westminster know they can’t stop the bill, they will still challenge it.

  59. Clapper57

    One thing we have learnt about Brexit party supporters is…when you provide them with any facts and figures that challenge their pre held uninformed assumptions derived from the effective tactical drip drip method of Rule Britannia brainwashing….they automatically revert to some historical achievement which they attribute to Britain alone having attained.

    They state that they are willing to suffer but the reality is if any post Brexit shit hits the fan that impacts negatively upon their day to day lives ….they will be the first to complain….and will look to transfer their blame game onto another target…..most likely us Scots ….again !

    While frauds like the Scottish Tories , instead of defending Scotland, they will blame the SNP hoping the gullible among us, and the undesirables who choose to mix religion with politics, also reach this irrational conclusion even when the evidence is clear that this mess has been instigated and orchestrated by a Tory party that always puts party first and country an afterthought….Scotland obvs not at all even considered other than an irritant that will not shut up and accept it’s new place as a region not a country….not forgetting the other culprits btw i.e. other Unionist political parties culpable of promoting the same selfish SNPBAD agenda to deflect away from their own shortcomings as honest and competent political parties failing to deliver to the people they are supposed to serve.

    Is there any intelligent person watching this film and also watching and listening to these types of people on news reports, political programmes and debates who actually still think it is not justified, reasonable and logical to want to opt out of this toxic politically corrupt chaotic shit hole and instead create a new independent country free from this madness and populism that is infesting England.

    Strange indeed that these people cannot see the obvious anology between what Farage is promoting in comparison to what Hitler promoted to the Germans…while they talk about the WAR and Germany !

    Perhaps also the constant force fed TV programmes about Great British this and Great British that has given a false sense of power and worth to the masses who support Brexit….though for people like us on here this did not resonate as we could see it for what is was….and we do not identify as British as it is a fake identity.

    This shit fest has been very much enabled thanks to Unionist political parties more interested in achieving power and their own self serving interests than defending and helping those voters, who have been willfully ignored and denied help, and who lived in industrial areas ,and since Thatcher, have seen their areas decimated thanks to deindustrialisation.

    These same parties have also allowed those other types of voters i.e. the naive English patriots of the Britnat population to believe that under the so called fantasy British state they are somehow superior and a force within the world.

    Post Brexit the reality will indeed expose to them what the true position of their Britain aka England will be ….and they will soon find out that Rule Britannia will not have such great influence or power to gain all of those promised great trade deals that will benefit them, the Brits, more than the other countries within the world…other countries who will seek to pick and choose what THEY want from Britland and not just what Britland wants and does not want….also pseudo special relationships will not exist via trade deals from a country who has proclaimed America first via it’s president.

    The Unionist politicians argument to Scotland in denying us a chance to be free of this is indeed greatly weakened and hollow because they know , as we do, that they cannot control the current surge of fanaticism of both English and British ( same thing really ) nationalism that is sweeping the country (England) that they have promoted their allegiance to.

    And there is the rub….no doubt though they, the Unionist politicians, will continue to proceed with spouting empty promises and lies because that is all they know to do…if they were honest they would admit we, who seek self determination from a dysfunctional and unworkable Union, were right before and we are right now….unfortunately for us we now must also have to reap what they, the Unionists have sown….so who will save us if not ourselves ?

    IndyRef2 or Armageddon BritNat festival.

  60. cirsium

    @Juteman, 1.52
    Unless we get to grips with postal voting we will never get independence through the ballot box.

    That’s my worry as well. I do not think that there should be postal voting for the referendum. It is not secure.

    Back in 2012, we had the luxury of a two year period of campaigning and preparation. We will not have that for the next referendum so, in the run-up to voting, the focus has to be on producing the right number of ballot papers and ensuring that each paper has a reference number on the back.

    In view of the situation, what is going through my head is
    “There is a tide in the affairs of men,
    Which, taken at the flood , leads on to fortune:
    Omitted, all the voyage of their life
    Is bound in shallows and in miseries.
    On such a full sea are we now afloat,
    And we must take the current when it serves,
    Or lose our ventures.”

  61. manandboy

    With rain curtailing work in the garden, I watched the film. Then I watched it again. I still retain the view that Brexit remains an exercise akin to driving in the dark without headlights while wearing sunglasses. With no clear view of the road ahead it is no surprise that the UK doesn’t know where we’re going. That includes Nigel Farage who’s enduring speciality is hating Europe.

    While there is a great deal of anger and distrust with Westminster politics throughout the UK, as depicted in the Sky film, it won’t last forever and the electorate in England will then return to their senses. Will Farage and the new force, the Brexit Party, survive a return to political sanity? Perhaps – perhaps not.

    What is true is that Brexit has caused a serious breakdown in the system, but the breaking is ongoing and surely far from complete. Forecasting the end result is popular but the fact is we are all still driving in the dark. Including here in Scotland. Or have I missed something.

    I’m still betting on Scotland’s Independence to emerge from the Brexit breakdown. Let’s face it – it has to.

  62. Alan Crerar

    England is like an alcoholic, drunk on power and spending the wealth of an Empire to feed its habit. Its empire has gone, but it can’t kick the habit despite impoverishing itself. Locked in a self-destructive downward spiral, destroying family, betraying friends.
    Like an alcoholic, it hasn’t yet reached rock-bottom – maximum humiliation – before it can start on recovery.
    If it survives.

  63. Ken500

    Farague should be in jail. Total fraudster.

    Brexit will never happen. The Tories are toast. The shambles will continue on till there is a GE to get rid of them. Off into oblivion.

    The SNP are winning, Scotland on to Independence and prosperity. Every thing to look forward.

    The next AUOB March in Gala.

    Please folk in the Borders get did of the Tories. Do everyone a favour.

  64. mogabee


    SNP members were advised to increase the folk taking a postal ballot and that is what my daughter did.

    I’m hoping that accounts for the increased PV total but we’ll just need to see!

  65. Robert Peffers

    Abulhaq says: 25 May, 2019 at 3:23 pm:

    ” … Plainly we see the current situation from diametrically opposed perspectives.”

    Which, as usual with you, has absolutely nothing to do with the matter being debated.

    ” … Enough polite language, enough jam tomorrow from NS….what the hell do you think we are dealing with? You must have led very sheltered lives if you think the British state is a push over.”

    And here you go again with the totally irrelevant pish. Let’s just consider it. What, “jam tomorrow”, has the SG attempted to promise you?

    Factually they have actually been providing jam today throughout Scotland since gaining office and Scotland is a far better place for it.

    I do not think, “what the hell “we”, are dealing with, I know what we are dealing with.

    Furthermore where did you derive the idea I thought the, “British Government”, were anything whatsoever? There is actually no such thing as, “THE”, British State. In point of fact there are eight of them. Four in the United Kingdom under Westminster rule and four not ruled by Westminster. Perhaps you meant, “The United Kingdom”.

    That too is composed of only two kingdoms and one of those kingdoms contains three countries. It is a bipartite political union of two kingdoms and they are equally sovereign but you would not think so as Westminster is legally the parliament of both kingdoms but acts as if the Kingdom of Scotland was a country of England dominion and Westminster the de facto parliament of the country of England.

    Now you spout another load of idiotic claptrap, totally irrelevant bullshit and sheer speculation on your part. You have absolutely no idea about my life, sheltered or not, and wherever did you get the strange notion I ever thought the United Kingdom was a push over?

    Now it just may be possible I have a little more experience of dealing with high ranking Westminster Secretaries of State than you imagine. Particularly Secretaries of State for Defence. I can tell you this, ranting, raving and attempting to act the hard man will simply result in the opposition standing up and leaving the room. It simply is not done that way.

    You, and they, will politely make your points and the debate goes on and it is the points made and argued over that matter. You can make your point just as hard, and prove them correct with logical argument, than by ranting and raving, all that does is end the meeting.

    So there you go – you are talking rubbish and you really have no firm grasp of what is really going on. People who attempt to be too forceful with unreasoned argument usually lose the argument.

    Nicola is not only trained as a lawyer but has long experience in the political arena dealing with World leaders including the POTUS and the EU leaders and the Chinese, just to quote a few.

    Why then do you choose to constantly run her down? Now others have made the point that people are frustrated because things are not going as they personally wish them to go. Well no one is more frustrated than I am as I have spent around 71 years supporting the SNP and independence and if things drag on much longer I may never live in an independent Scotland but in my book you do not take your frustration out on your own leadership for that only helps the union cause.

    So why do you do so?

  66. Terry callachan

    Really ? was the requirement of EU nationals to complete forms EC6 and UC1 so obscure that no MP,s in any of the UK political party,s and no civil servants thought to inform people that in order to vote in these EU elections they had to complete these forms ?

    And for the UK electoral commission to say that the arrangement for the UK to take part in the EU elections was so recent that they did not have time to inform people of the requirement to complete these forms in order to vote , is just a lie , you can’t even put it down to incompetence, we have all known for months and months of the possibility that brexit would be extended and that we would then possibly be taking part in the EU elections, an advertising campaign on tv and radio could have been arranged very quickly indeed ,in days, there is no excuse for this dreadful behavior , they planned windrush knowing it was breaking the law they wrote to people telling them they had better leave the UK when it was against the law and now they have excluded people from their right to vote what a disgusting Westminster government we have and a civil service as corrupt and dishonest that aides them.

  67. CameronB Brodie

    It might be time folk familiarised themselves with some political philosophy. Liberty can not be defended without ethically informed reason, which has been emptied from political discourse in Britain for far too long.

    Book Review
    Liberty, Rationality, and Agency in Hobbes’s Leviathan

    In opposition to prevailing Hobbes scholarship, van Mill constructs from Hobbes’s texts a spectrum theory of agency that identifies a full agent as one capable of autonomous rational action. Hobbes’s famous definition of liberty as the absence of external impediments to motion applies to the motions of bodies but not to the actions of agents, for [End Page 397] whom liberty requires reasonable and rational deliberation and choice. He sees in Hobbes a theory of internal conditions on freedom-including reasoned control of the passions, absence of fear, and compliance with disinterested norms in pursuit of worthy ends within a coherent life plan-which he likens to Kant’s conception of autonomous agency.

    Van Mill rejects game-theoretic interpretations of Hobbesian rationality (which he frequently characterizes as interested in maximizing “short-term utility” or the satisfaction of “immediate preferences”) because they take rationality to be merely instrumental reasoning aimed at satisfying appetites or passions that are not themselves subject to rational assessment, apart from their coherence with the agent’s other ends. Instead, rationality requires that one control one’s passions, as can be seen, says van Mill, in Hobbes’s analysis of madness as an “overvehemence” of passion. In particular, the passions are to be controlled by conforming one’s conduct to the reasonable norms articulated by Hobbes’s laws of nature.

    Men could not do this if they were psychological egoists moved solely by consideration of self-interest, because the laws of nature require actions that may not always most conduce to the agent’s self-interest; but, van Mill argues, Hobbesian men are not psychological egoists: “Hobbes’s theory of volition . . . precludes him from supporting psychological egoism and also allows him to present a coherent moral theory.” Hobbes offers an objectivist moral philosophy-a form of consequentialism-employing rules of thumb in the service of securing the social conditions necessary for the exercise of rational autonomy.

    Having argued that Hobbes was concerned to facilitate this sort of robust freedom, and impressed by Judith Shklar’s remark that liberalism aims to secure conditions for the exercise of personal freedom, van Mill proceeds to argue that Hobbes was a liberal-that the Hobbesian state separates public from private realms, insulating the private from legal regulation-and that in fact, men enjoy greater freedom under Hobbes’s absolutism than they do under the modern state.

    Despite his careful and often ingenious argument for this surprising conclusion, one may doubt that any system in which the citizenry is not entitled to insist upon any limits whatsoever to legitimate governmental authority can be properly termed liberal. Of course, as van Mill notes, liberal systems may fail to honor the limits they theoretically recognize, but they do not deny, as Hobbes does, that there are any limits. Van Mill thinks the laws of nature provide limits. Yet, since the sovereign is the sole authorized interpreter of the laws of nature, and of what is to count as correct interpretation, Hobbes’s theory provides no independently identifiable limits on the sovereign’s authority, let alone familiar liberal limits.

    P.S. The right to “internal sovereignty” is the most widely supported human rights there is, apart from viewers in Scotland, obvs.

  68. Arthur Thomson

    I watched the full 20 minutes and have to say that I am less pessimistic than others seem to be.

    I have lived a lifetime under British control and the worst times were when the silent majority were at peace with each other. It was suffocating. Now the Brits are revolting but in a different way. They are divided and that provides the space for change that was not there in the past.

    How best to use that space to achieve Scotland’s independence is the big unknown. What I would like to see happen is for the SNP and the wider movement to keep pushing at every opportunity, in whatever ways are possible, to promote the need for independence. Ultimately we depend on enough Scots (indigenous or new) to determine to have self-determination.

    If my life experience is anything to go by, luck will prove to be a key factor in what transpires. That is not to suggest trusting in luck, only acceptance that events and unexpected circumstances invariably occur and greatly influence outcomes.

  69. Scozzie

    Robert Peffers you’re very keen to call out people who ask for decisive action from the SNP. You often state in your posts that calling the referendum too soon is ill-advised and too easily use the ‘what makes you the expert’ argument. However, we’re all entitled to our opinions.

    Some of us want to see decisive action in these unprecedented times. You appear to be happy to wait for the leadership to decide for you and that’s ok, for you.

    But when is the optimal time? Politics is a dynamic process and often things appear from left-field. There is never a perfect time for action. And sometimes if you wait for the perfect time it passes you by.

    We’re only now getting legislation for a referendum put through Holyrood. Some might argue that’s a little too late. I think we’re at the point that we need to forget about stopping Brexit and focus our attention on gaining independence.

  70. RobertTheTruth

    ‘Now it just may be possible I have a little more experience of dealing with high ranking Westminster Secretaries of State than you imagine. Particularly Secretaries of State for Defence. I can tell you this, ranting, raving and attempting to act the hard man will simply result in the opposition standing up and leaving the room. It simply is not done that way.’

    @Peffers, your deference to the ‘British State’ you claim does not exist knows no bounds. Your grandiose claims are becoming more and more ridiculous. Just accept you do not know it all and understand other people think differently.

    This acceptance that ‘authority’ always knows best whether it be the SNP leader or the Defence Secretary no longer carries the weight those of your ilk think it does.

    Nicola Sturgeon was a solicitor, the equivalent of a GP in Medicine, a non-specialist. Even then her time in Law was limited as she began her climb up the ranks of the SNP. Some of us remember when she thought she was ready to take on the leadership when she was patently not, her judgment even then was suspect. To be in power may be the most important thing to her while Independence is the most important thing to us. Look at how Plaid has been galvanized by a new leader since they got rid of their ‘Nicola’.

    You have to accept that others have opinions whether you like them or not something you seem to find increasingly difficult.

    Here’s a thought, instead of constantly trying to shut us up why not start an appreciation thread for all that ‘Nicola’ has done? You and the rest of the obsequious and fawning crowd here can stay there while the rest of us try to figure out how the paralysis in the SNP can be resolved and we can finally get Independence.

  71. Terry callachan

    “Only someone who had lost the war would sign an agreement like this”
    How often did we hear that in this video ?

    “We beat them twice in the war we will beat Germany again”
    What kind of thoughts are going through their heads when they say this in this video ?

    It’s eerily strange but of the people I know who support UKIP or the brexit party they so often talk
    about “the war “ and they were not even born when WWll took place ?

    These same people , so many of them have gone on visits to graveyards for the WWll dead in France germany etc but they are not visiting relatives or people they knew they are just visiting the graveyards of dead people they didn’t even know ?
    Isn’t that a bit odd ?
    Traveling to Europe on a bus to visit the graves of people who you didn’t know ?

    it’s as if they are clinging to something that makes them seem bigger and stronger in the world , is that what it’s all about ? weak people who want to get behind something that makes them stronger by listening to all this fighting talk and talk of war and talk of
    “beating them again “ ?

    And they make up so many stories about immigration and taking back control they are in a different world from me for sure.

  72. Abulhaq

    i give up on you Mr Peffers, plainly you are a useful idiot.

  73. sassenach

    Abdul @5-57pm

    …and you are just an idiot!!

  74. Terry callachan

    To geeo your post at 1.39pm 25th May.

    I kind of agree with a lot of people saying that Nicola sturgeons statement about Theresa May’s resignation was over complimentary, sure I understand stateswoman argument and all that but still it is my opinion Nicola could have been less complimentary , it’s another blunder in my view , on top of attending the English gathering of remainers calling for a second brexit referendum.

    Independence requires more of a Scottish perspective I think she ought to be thinking more about how people in Scotland are thinking about Theresa May , brexit , Boris Johnson , Nigel Farage perhaps a statement or two that Scottish independence supporters actually agree with wouldn’t go amiss.

  75. CameronB Brodie

    Terry callachan
    Seeing as how you’ve already outed yourself as a glutton for punishment Terry. 😉

    Vote and Individual Predictors of Prejudice:
    Collective Narcissism, Right Wing Authoritarianism,
    Social Dominance Orientation

    The Leave campaign in the U.K., which advocated exiting the European Union, emphasized anxiety over immigration and the need to take control of the U.K.’s borders. Citizens who expressed concerns about immigration to the U.K. were more likely to vote to leave. Two correlational studies examined the previously unexplored question of whether the Brexit vote and support for the outcome of the E.U. referendum were linked to individual predictors of prejudice toward foreigners: British collective narcissism (a belief in national greatness), right wing authoritarianism, and social dominance orientation.

    The results converged to indicate that all three variables were independently related to the perceived threat of immigrants and, via this variable, to the Brexit vote and a support for the outcome of the E.U. referendum. These variables explained the variance in the perceived threat of immigrants and support for the Brexit vote over and above other previously examined predictors such as age, education, or ethnicity, as well as, national identification and national attachment.

    Keywords: Brexit vote, immigration threat, collective narcissism, right wing authoritarianism, social dominance

  76. Craig Murray

    Scozzie at 5.17pm

    That was very well put and needed to be said.

  77. Ken500

    Surprise, surprise the Football Club that gets the most public money wins. Boring. No wonder the terraces are empty. Sectarianism has damaged sport in Scotland. Bigots, racists and paedos running the Clubs. Marches finally redirected from Churches. Most of these Marches should be banned, Non inclusive, bigots, racists and misogynist.

    Tennis UK gets £60million of public monies, Scotland gets £800,000. It should get £5Million. The UK Treasury underfunding again.

    What is the obsession with naked men in women’s changing rooms. They should be so lucky.

    There have been mixed changing rooms at swimming pools etc for years. Absolutely no problems. There are cubicles and families changing. So families and friends can change together. Most changing rooms have separate cubicles. Or there is always internet shopping for those who do not want to show their bits. There are staff making sure there is no abuse.

    The British attitude to the nude body. Totally ridiculous. Everyone has one. The young are not so ashamed or embarrassed.

  78. geeo

    British Nationalist invasion in here tonight.

    Place stinks of fear and self loathing.

    Half of them even pretending to be indy supporters, comedy gold !!

  79. geeo

    Proud Cybernat@3.32pm

    Absolutely spot on post.

    Nails these Britnat Jellies to the wall in style.

  80. geeo

    Callachan the gibberer@6.15pm.

    My (1.39pm) post you reference has absolutely zero relevence to that steaming pile of keech you posted @6.15pm.

    Do you need nursey to help you ?

  81. Abulhaq

    I pick up an element of racism on here. This bodes ill for an open debate on the future of Scotland. An open critique of the political order is healthy. Burning incense before demi-gods with possible feet of clay is not. Time the SNP establishment delivered.
    Some Scots exhibit an incredible innocence when confronted by raw power. Truly, this is a political culture that must ‘grow up’.
    For God’s sake READ YOUR BRITISH IMPERIAL HISTORY! Study the tactics.
    Independence is there to SEIZE…..just get on with it.

  82. galamcennalath

    “Britain’s withdrawal agreement from the European Union is not up for renegotiation now Theresa May has stood down, Dutch prime minister Mark Rutte said at his weekly news conference.”

    Ok …. then there is a growing list of Tory PM contenders who will tell us that they will force the EU back to the negotiating table and get a better deal.

    So, who should we believe? The Dutch PM or a pack of circling ravenous political hyenas ? (With due apologies to all true hyenas.)

    Really difficult decision there. NOT!

  83. CameronB Brodie

    Hopefully it was a typo, though that could be clarified.

  84. Robert Peffers

    @Scozzie says: 25 May, 2019 at 5:17 pm:

    … Robert Peffers you’re very keen to call out people who ask for decisive action from the SNP.”

    Err! No I do not. It is amazing how many people keep telling me what I say or even what I think – and get it wrong.

    There is quite a deal of difference in asking for decisive action while stating good reasons for doing so and demanding that Nicola Sturgeon, the SG and/or the SNP does what someone who demands, for no good reason for doing so.

    I question who is the best placed people in Scotland to know what is the right time. The entire SNP with their teams of both Scottish government legal advisors and other professional workers and the SG with their advisors and legal teams right there at the centre of the action. Or some numptie commenter on a political blog?

    Even if it is on Wings where commenters are usually better informed than most.

    Come on, Scozzie, think about it. On this very thread today there were such demands and someone, not me, had to inform them that the SG, this week, had the matter of Indyref2 coming before the chamber for debate and how that will work out through the Royal Signature and then perhaps through the courts. So there you go, there is decisive action going on this very week and certain numpties are on here demanding inappropriate action so they had obviously no idea of what is really going on.

    ” … You often state in your posts that calling the referendum too soon is ill-advised and too easily use the ‘what makes you the expert’ argument. However, we’re all entitled to our opinions.

    Aye! So we are all entitled to our opinions – but that’s all they are – opinions.

    I knew a guy, (when I was a wee laddie), and his granny told him the old Scots story, “Never test the depth o the burn wi baith feet” Sadly his opinion was that his Granny was wrong. Sadly he nearly drowned and suffered from a weak chest all the rest of his life. The proof is on this thread. We have people running down the FM, SNP and SG and there is an important debate and vote to be held in the Holyrood parliament in a few days.

    Quite obviously those of the opinion that the FM/SG/SNP are either a waste of time or incompetent or whatever anti-indy rubbish they hold as, “opinions”, is rubbish.
    But when is the optimal time? Politics is a dynamic process and often things appear from left-field. There is never a perfect time for action. And sometimes if you wait for the perfect time it passes you by.
    We’re only now getting legislation for a referendum put through Holyrood. Some might argue that’s a little too late. I think we’re at the point that we need to forget about stopping Brexit and focus our attention on gaining independence.

  85. Robert Peffers

    Just to show I was not kidding in my earlier comments I searched upthread for, and found, the informative post from Proud Cybernat.

    I hope Proud Cybernat doesn’t object to me reposting it again.

    “Proud Cybernat says:
    25 May, 2019 at 3:32 pm
    “…Nicola needs to make the election one about independence as boris has said he isn’t giving out any section 30s.”
    ScotGov is introducing the legislation for a 2nd IndyRef next week in Holyrood. After it is passed by SNP/Greens (after a few months), it then goes to straight HM Queen for Royal Assent (i.e. to make the Bill / IndyRef2 legal).
    That is the point where WM can intervene (or not) by deferring the Bill to the Supreme Court who will then have to FINALLY confront the issue of Scots sovereignty and make a decision. I have no doubt it will go in ScotGov (Scots) favour. We are in an international treaty with England and, as such, we do not need to ask the other treaty partner for the right to ask ourselves a question.
    At no point in the process here does an S30 even come into it.”

    So there you go. All those negative castigations of the FM/SG and SNP and claims they were doing nothing are shown up ,for what they are.

    I wonder if certain false flag indy supporters will melt away now that their anti-indy rants will now be useless?

  86. Simon Curran

    Re. European nationals not being allowed to vote. Are there any definitive figures / reasonable estimates as to how many people were affected? And at what point, if any could that be seen as invalidating any election result? Teresa May talked about feeling people’s frustration when they were not allowed to vote but that’s disingenuous, it’s not frustrating it’s denying people their democratic right.

  87. Molly

    Abulhaq , totally agree about ‘transitioning into a dangerous world no place for the naive’.

    Reading Ian Frasers excellent ‘Shredded ‘ and just thinking through some of it, I’m sure it was Richard Murphy (when giving evidence at Holyrood) highlighted at this time Scotland doesn’t have the necessary financial regulations in place as obviously Westminster deals with it.

    The abuse of the regulations, manipulation of systems and practices of many well known names and the fines having to be paid is mind boggling .

    Conveniently due to the Brexit coverage so much of it seems to be under the news radar.

    Weirdly we’re now in a place where if an Independent Scotland was to be a stickler for the rules which would benefit all( one of the things I do want from Indy) would also be one of the things who ever is in charge would be attacked for.

    Not saying we shouldn’t stick to the rules ( in fact it’s vital) but we certainly shouldn’t be naive about these issues

  88. Terry

    @breeks. 1.26

    Totally on the money again. Farage and his cronies are echoing hitler and his – economic crash, followed by laying the blame at Johnny foreigners or Jewish populations door, with a pandering to ethnic nationalism. Then grab the cash. This usually can only be achieved with punitive measures.

    I’m sorry but the Snp need to go for it now. It’s getting very late in the day now.

  89. dandydons1903

    English Exceptionalism is rife even amongst the serfs down there. They trult think they are Gods gift to humanity.

  90. James

    That clip simply scares the hell out of me, reminds me of someone else in history!! We need to get away from that type of hate politics

  91. yesindyref2

    Basically speaking, there was no sensible time for Indy Ref 2 to be announced before, with all the uncertainty and then the EU elections, which have a potential significance in impressing the EU with the interest and intentions of the Scottish Electorate. Perhaps, who knows, facilitating some sort of transitory holding pen for an iScotland in the making.

    The EU (EP) election results will be announced on Monday, and then apart from the Referendum Bill starting to move itself through Holyrood, slowly as some think, perhaps faster if neccessary, the only thing on the agenda is some boring Tory internal squabble resulting in some person posing as unelected PM of the UK, and trying to keep a scrabbling rabble of Tory MPs under control.

    Won’t be long now.

  92. Ian Brotherhood

    Just clicked, what the Lewis Goodall footage reminded me of…

    Anyone remember a TV drama starring Jonathan Pryce called The Ploughman’s Lunch?

    Part of it was filmed (secretly) at the Tory party conference in 1982.

    Below is link to the final part of Thatcher’s speech, during which some of those scenes were shot in real-time. Look at the density of the crowd, and listen to the rhetoric, esp from 6.00 mins until the end.

    Maybe it’s just me, but I find the similarities quite striking.

  93. Bill McDermott

    I have a different perspective as to what is likely to happen. Here is my take.

    If Boris wins the leadership, he will have to contend with about 60 enemies within his own party made up of remainers such as Dominic Grieve and soft brexiters like Nicolas Soames. My guess is that they won’t stand for a ‘no deal’ Brexit and will in extremis vote against Boris in a vote of no confidence secured by Labour + SNP + LibDems + Change UK + Greens and those Tories. That will mean a general election at which the SNP will wipe out the Ruth Davidson party and LiS. My wish is that Nicola will go into that election on a strong mandate for Independence and use that mandate to force the issue for all its worth.

    Of course, the favourite in Tory leadership elections more often than not fail to secure the top positions so the strength of a ‘no deal’ push will depend on how committed Jeremy Hunt et al are to the unicorns or to dealing with the Nigel Farage fantasies.

  94. Robert Peffers

    @Terry says: 25 May, 2019 at 8:15 pm:

    ” … I’m sorry but the Snp need to go for it now. It’s getting very late in the day now.”

    Nah! You are not in the slightest sorry, which is why you take such joy in condemning the SNP so readily. What you are, though, is sadly uninformed and rather remiss at reading posts on Wings.

    For example this one from upthread by Proud Cybernat:-

    “Proud Cybernat says: 25 May, 2019 at 3:32 pm

    “…Nicola needs to make the election one about independence as boris has said he isn’t giving out any section 30s.”

    ScotGov is introducing the legislation for a 2nd IndyRef next week in Holyrood. After it is passed by SNP/Greens (after a few months), it then goes to straight HM Queen for Royal Assent (i.e. to make the Bill / IndyRef2 legal).

    That is the point where WM can intervene (or not) by deferring the Bill to the Supreme Court who will then have to FINALLY confront the issue of Scots sovereignty and make a decision. I have no doubt it will go in ScotGov (Scots) favour. We are in an international treaty with England and, as such, we do not need to ask the other treaty partner for the right to ask ourselves a question.

    At no point in the process here does an S30 even come into it.”

  95. Terry callachan

    To CameronB Brodie ..your post at 6.18pm 25th May

    Thanks Cameron, if only all punishments were so mild .
    I don’t mind people disagreeing with me , I say what I think and often learn from the responses.
    It’s good to be told you are wrong , when you are wrong !

    I must say I like the info you provide it’s great to get confirmation of what one believes or alternatively a pointer to another point of view.
    Power to you keep it going.

  96. Terry callachan

    To geeo, your post at 6.41pm 25th May

    Haha you are a case geeo , you are quite the comedian , I get a good laugh at your posts.

    By the way , how have you fared in your hunt for British nationalists on wings today ? how many have you spotted today haha

  97. Robert Louis

    A new Tory leader will change nothing. The parliamentary arithmetic will remain the same as it is now. Even brexiteer boris the clown would still be stuck, unless he decided to just go for a hard no deal brexit. And that’s the point, either a general election with the hope of winning more Tory seats, or do hard brexit.

  98. Terry callachan

    To geeo your post at 6.36pm 25th May

    Have you ever tried to nail jelly to a wall ?
    How did you get on ?

    Failed eh

  99. Ken500

    Brexit non Party on 16% GE. Losing ground already? Another Farague flop.

  100. Anne Marie D

    This should be a huge wake up call to the independence by example philosophy. We are well past that now. We have to convince the SNP to get the gloves off. I curse the Better Together message with all my being but unless people wake up we will walk into this Britnat nightmare.

    I honestly believe that folk will see what is coming down the road but we can get them there quicker. Focus is everything. It is like Maslow’s hierarchy of needs. First things first and pick the battles wisely. Therefore all those worried about gender ID and pronouns can simply do one. They should watch this video and as my mum used to say “I”ll gie you something to worry about”

  101. geeo


    Well, there’s YOU for starters you anti english bigot.

    Now, perhaps you will explain the relevence of ANY post i have made which relates to the gibberish you spouted re: Nicola Sturgeon ?

    Take your time now little boy.

  102. geeo

    Callachan reverts to type, obsessed by one poster, getting ever more desperate and offering zero but gibbering pish.

    Anti english bigot in obsessed by Indy supporter who calls out his shite, fancy that.

  103. Dr Jim

    The numbers in the House of Commons mean nothing if no bill is brought forward to vote on
    The next Prime minister could just sit on his/her backside and wait till default no deal Brexit day that way they see off Farage and look strong stable and tough at the same time

    After 40 years of waiting to get out of the EU the rich get richer and the poor think they’re getting what they were told they want

    Until they really get it, then it’ll be too late and the Tories and Labour will do the blame game all over again but they won’t have Farage to worry about because he’ll have been shown up to be the charlaton that he is by then and buggered off, and the Westminster wheel will keep turning

    It’s an ever increasing snowball, full size by Christmas

    I expect our team will have gamed the scenarios and have their fingers poised over the shoot button waiting for maximum point score

  104. yesindyref2

    OK, I’m getting a bit lost here. It seems Rory Stewart is a contender for leader of the Tories, but might actually be a sensible chappie. But did he have any connections with Vote No Borders? And the geographically challenged hand-holding along the length of Hadrian’s Wall event thing?

  105. Robert Peffers

    After not reading what Proud Cybernat posted upthread, and it has also been told about on the SNP’s website and the Holyrood Government webpages among other places, how come the drip, drip, drip brigade missed reading Proud Cybernat’s comment on the thread they are still dripping about FM/SG/SNP inactivity? .

    Mind you I cannot recall seeing any mention of it upon on-line SMSM webpages or heard it on Radio Scotland but then I do not pay much attention to SMSM sites or to Radio Scotland.

    However I have explained there being other court options available including that one. That is not to say I in any way was privy to what the SG/SNP might be up to. I just knew there were other irons in the fire by keeping myself informed.

    Furthermore that is not the only possible rout that could be followed via the courts or international bodies. As has been said by others – why would the FM telegraph her options to the Westminster Establishment before she needed to?

    At least we may get a little peace from the anti-FM/SG/SNP brigade of commenters for a while but I have no doubt they will soon find something else to use to the beat the FM/SG/SNP with.

    Here’s a wee hint for them – how about complaints that the FM/SG/SNP are not employing the very best lawyers or QC’s on the case? That might be a big enough stick for beating the indy side with.

    What I find hilarious is that they were so intent upon striking back at those who find their never ending dripping irksome they missed the information that the FM/SG/SNP were doing something very constructive and that looks quite an ironclad way forward.

    What’s more it couldn’t have been chosen to happen at any better time what with events at Westminster being what they are and laughably not one of the FM/SG/SNP complainants missed a single word of the Westminster doings but had no idea of what was going on at Holyrood right under their noses.

  106. Terry callachan

    Hi geeo.

    Haha you really are a comedian I like your style

    On the subject of Nicola Sturgeon though, it’s interesting how many commentators are surprised by her behavior.
    Generally there is a worry that Scottish independence is not top of her list of things to do.
    Joining the English remainer protest in London calling for a second brexit referendum when Scotland had already made its decision with a two to one vote in favor of remain was odd because Scotland doesn’t need or want another brexit referendum.

    What Scotland wants is a Scottish independence referendum .

    I’m not alone in being a little uneasy about the lack of a purely Scottish perspective being shown by Nicola Sturgeon , it’s not her job to be joining in England’s politics there are plenty of English politicians down there to do that.

    Keep the jokes coming geeo a bit of humor is well appreciated here but dinna greet like big Theresa for heavens sake

  107. robin

    the quote from earlier was from the guardian online
    What’s more, a research paper from the Institute of Government is doing the rounds, arguing that MPs no longer have any clear mechanism to stop a no-deal exit; the devices they had before have fallen away. If a prime minister wants to crash out, perhaps by simply running out the clock and waiting for the EU extension to expire on 31 October, it would be a “near-impossible task” for MPs to stop them.

  108. sassenach

    yesindyref2 @9-25pm

    Yes, Rory the Tory also constructed a wee cairn against Indy.
    Sorry cannot abide the man.

  109. Sarah

    @Robert Peffers: O/T re ebikes – see over on Off Topic, please.

  110. yesindyref2

    Thanks. I can’t remember much about him, except a vague memory he was an annoying little git. Rev’s retweeted a couple of things from him, wondering what his interest is. Bearing in mind the “winner” might not be one of the top contenders like Boris.

  111. Dave Hunter

    There is a song that sums it up admirably:

    “We Gotta Get out of This Place”

    I watched all the way through and I’m waiting on the bierhalle putsch. Farage is doing the same as Adolf and the little englanders are loving it.

    Won’t be long before he is calling for the Scottish Government to be disbanded and Scotland to become a county in the north of England.

    Best we take steps bloody great big ones away from the National Socialist Kingdom of little England whilst we still can.

    Hail Alba.

  112. Terry callachan

    To Robert peffers your post at 9.27pm 25th May

    Robert, we all support Nicola Sturgeon and Scottish independence but that’s not to say we all agree with everything she says and does.
    There is no party whip here on wings so people get to air their views.
    You don’t need to protect Nicola Sturgeon or the Scottish government be assured neither need protection from posters on wings .
    Wings is a conversational place , accept the right of personal views let’s encourage discussion and promote a variety of views , listen , disagree or agree but don’t shut down conversation, we need people saying what they think.

    I think you made a very good point about Nicola Sturgeon keeping her cards close to her chest she is clever enough to know that revealing her intentions gives the opposition time to prepare and rebuke.
    I hope her plan is a winner.

  113. Dave McEwan Hill

    Terry callachan at 8.55 pm
    Once most of us have spotted a unionist troll we don’t bother pointing them out or replying to the comments.We just go past.

  114. Dave McEwan Hill

    yesindyref2 at 9.25.

    Rory Stewart worked for the security services. He is getting an inordinate amount of media coverage. Is is just me or does he remind anybody else of Stan Laurel?

    The big question in my mind is why Farage gets wall to wall coverage in the BBC. Without that he wouldn’t be an issue.

  115. yesindyref2

    @Terry callachan
    Nobody seems interested in giving you a reasonable reply so I’ll try my best. It’s worth starting here (from recent Panelbase poll):

    When do you think another Scottish independence referendum should be held?

    There should not be another Scottish independence referendum in the next few years: 49.8% (-0.7)
    When the UK has finished negotiating to leave the EU: 27.9% (-2.2)
    While the UK is negotiating to leave the EU: 22.3% (+2.9)

    so 50.2% in favour, a very narrow amount. Support for Indy itself is probably about the same, at or very near 50%.

    So, not moved much since Indy Ref 1, but it has moved a bit, and it’s Brexit and Westminster shenanigans have moved the support – but not enough yet.

    Hence why Sturgeon & Co are still doing the “right thing” about the EU and Brexit – i.e. trying to keep the whole UK in the EU, which 62% in Scotland voted for. And note, that was not as some try to make out, to keep independent Scotland in the EU, but Scotland in the UK as it is now, in the EU.

    Nobody knows how many would vote for iScotland to remain in the EU, so the ScotGov / Sturgeon / Russell continue to do the right thing to persuade people to move over from NO to YES.

    It’s happening.

  116. Scot Finlayson

    A Concern Troll,

    `a person who disingenuously expresses concern about an issue with the intention of undermining or derailing genuine discussion.`

    `In an argument (usually a political debate), a concern troll is someone who is on one side of the discussion, but pretends to be a supporter of the other side with “concerns”.

    The idea behind this is that your opponents will take your arguments more seriously if they think you’re an ally.

    Concern trolls who use fake identities are sometimes known as sockpuppets.`

    just sayin.

  117. Petra

    @ Terry callachan says at 4:45 pm … ”Really? was the requirement of EU nationals to complete forms EC6 and UC1 so obscure that no MP,s in any of the UK political party,s and no civil servants thought to inform people that in order to vote in these EU elections they had to complete these forms?”

    You must have missed this Mr Callachan plus Nicola Sturgeon’s tweet.

    @ Nana .. ”We had arranged to meet @joannaccherry today so here is our interview in two parts – one on EU citizens… Click on tweets for two parts videos.


    I was just thinking that Nigel Farage comes across as being a real threat to democracy, Hitler like in fact, until I popped onto this site / ‘Farage thread’ and realized that Nicola Sturgeon seems to be the problem. No need to read the Daily Rag, Scotsman and some so-called Independence sites, just visit Wings. If you haven’t done so already it would be well worth reading K1’s post on ‘Please do not waste this time’ at 2.20am….. Highlights that most of us can clearly see what’s going on. And one thing for sure is that if Nicola Sturgeon had listened to some of the ‘experts’ on here who have been bleating on since post the EURef, nearly 3 years ago, for her to hold IndyRef2 we would have lost it for sure.


    Nicola by the way is well aware of the Farage situation, as expected of a highly intelligent, astute politician:-

    and here (click on the poll link) …


    @ Craig Murray says at 6:18 pm …. ”Scozzie at 5.17pm. That was very well put and needed to be said.”

    Meanwhile we’ll all be waiting patiently to see what you have to say about Farage on YOUR site. Will you inform your readers of the threat that this man holds not just for Scotland / the UK, but for Europe of course?

  118. Terry callachan

    To Dave Mcewan Hill your post at 9.46pm 25th May

    Personally I don’t think there are any regular unionist trolls on wings
    All the people I see here on wings that are being accused of being British nationalists are in my opinion supporters of Scottish independence who simply have a different take on certain matters.

    Not all supporters of Scottish independence like SNP or Nicola Sturgeon or want to be in the EU but I for one accept that such differences are natural and acceptable because my most important wish is for Scottish independence.

    Scottish independence is all that matters.
    At present it is SNP and Nicola Sturgeon that carry the torch but if they don’t get us Scottish independence a new way will be found.

    Personally I think SNP will get us Scottish independence.

  119. yesindyref2

    @Dave McEwan Hill
    I think Farage is one of these “larger than life” people, and the media love that.

  120. Capella

    @ yesindyref2 – and as Craig Murray pointed out some time ago – Rory is also in MI6.

  121. geeo

    Scot Finlayson @9.56pm said:

    A Concern Troll,

    `a person who disingenuously expresses concern about an issue with the intention of undermining or derailing genuine discussion.`

    `In an argument (usually a political debate), a concern troll is someone who is on one side of the discussion, but pretends to be a supporter of the other side with “concerns”.

    The idea behind this is that your opponents will take your arguments more seriously if they think you’re an ally.

    Concern trolls who use fake identities are sometimes known as sockpuppets.`

    just sayin.

    That was so distressing for Callachan to read, he felt compelled to tell us all how much of an Indy SNP supporter he was.

    Superbly done sir. !!

  122. Terry callachan

    To Petra your post at 10pm 25th May

    I did miss that Petra

    I’m genuinely annoyed but not surprised that all these EU citizens have had their names deleted yes actually deleted from the electoral roll because they did not complete forms they were supposed to complete which basically said they would not vote in the EU election both in the UK where they are living as well as in their country of origin.

    Why didn’t councils just send the appropriate forms to their home address ? how easy would that have been but no they decided to do nothing and then deleted them from the electoral roll when they didn’t send in forms they didn’t even know existed because there had been no advertising campaign.

    The UK electoral commission a bunch of twisters are saying they didn’t have time to inform people what absolute nonsense I received my EU election card weeks and weeks ago they could have sent a leaflet with the appropriate forms to EU citizens by post .

    Nice to see J Cherry on the ball


  123. Bobp

    DMH. Re TC there was certainly nothing trolling about his 5.41pm post. Absolutely agree with it.

  124. Terry callachan

    Hi geeo… your post at 1014 pm 25th May

    You are a cracker , you bring a smile to my face every time I read your posts

    Yours sincerely
    Distressed callachan haha

  125. yesindyref2

    Ah yes, I’m remembering now, and his father was in MI6. Seems to be coming from an article in the DT pushing Rory Stewart for PM:

    and the Rev being the Rev is probably sussing out the possibility – and perhaps its ramifications for us.

  126. Simon Curran

    @Briandoonthetoon at 20.17
    Thanks for the links. I’m glad someone is shining a light on the increasingly murky world of British ‘democracy’. There seems to be a lot of awful lot of possibilities for abuse with postal votes etc.
    My eye opener was on Thursday. One of our children had a voting card for our home address. As she was away from home she couldn’t vote at our polling station, but there would have been nothing to stop us giving her voting card to someone else and have them vote in her place (which I hasten to add we didn’t do). Okay its only one vote that might have been fraudulently cast but it exposes a flaw that shouldn’t be there.

  127. Terry callachan

    Nigel Farage to me appears to be a rather odd character I’m genuinely surprised so many people in England support him but perhaps it wouldn’t matter who the messenger was in fact I do believe it’s the policy and not the representative that is carrying the day , so many people in England are well and truly in favor of brexit.

    A fair number of people in England tend to dislike Germany and France as well which I find strange too, WWll ended 75 years ago , move on for goodness sake, many English people holiday and retire to France what is there to dislike.

    It won’t end well.
    Remember the day brexiters won , Farage going up in the lift with Donald trump in trumps hotel USA that was a pointer that USA have a hand in this whole “we hate the EU” thing that is going on in England.
    USA are miffed that the EU are not playing ball with trade making veiled threats to the EU about the EU buying gas from Russia via the nordline gas pipe I wouldn’t be surprised if it is the USA bankrolling Farage and instigating the Cambridge analytics spying scandal.

  128. galamcennalath

    I suspect the BritNat (official agencies and perhaps the amateurs) approach to fighting IndyRef2 will be disruption of the Yes side. Divide, deflect, spread doubt, foster infighting, encourage mistrust, promote alternative narratives, imply hidden agendas, etc.. Basically try to sap energy, commitment, and unity of purpose. A fair amount of gaslighting.

    It’s everywhere and certainly on here.

    They failed to do this in IndyRef1. They learned their mistake then and began this approach a few years ago.

    How to counter? Focus on the goal. Ignore the doubters. Stay positive, and try to avoid negativity.

  129. Terry callachan

    To Simon Curran ..your post at 1021pm 25th May

    Good point Simon
    What amazed me is that it is clearly printed on the voting card
    “ you do not need to take this card to your polling station when you go to vote “

    I took mine but didn’t show it
    Nobody asked to see it

    How easy is that

    It’s not a secure system and yet when it came to EU citizens voting the security was scrupulous
    if you don’t complete the additional EU citizen forms you get deleted from the register

    Something isn’t right about the way this is all done

  130. robertknight

    Terry callahan @ 10:33…

    Spot on! I’ll never forget the ‘vox pop’ which appeared on one of the TV news channels, I forget which, where some bloke in his 70’s in Chelmsford, IIRC, stated proudly “We didn’t win the War to be told what to do by the Germans”.

    It was the first time my kids ever heard me drop the ‘F-bomb’.

  131. Terry

    @robert peffers

    Why do you construe every comment you don’t approve of as against the Snp? I’m a member and activist. The Snp welcomes debate and it’s a broad church. As it has to be considering it’s the national party of scotland.
    Anyway a much better expert than me has pointed out there’s only four weeks in which to act – check Wings post from a couple of days ago. I bow to this websites analysis. And carry on campaigning actively for Indy – hence I don’t often have the time to post on here.

  132. Terry callachan

    To galamcannalath.. your post of 1036pm 25th May

    Do you think it’s possible to disrupt the YES side by joining discussions on wings ?
    Surely not
    If someone can change you from YES to NO with what they say here on wings I would be totally amazed
    It appears to me that you need a high degree of dedication to the Scottish independence cause to participate on here regularly
    So many people come on here as supporters of Scottish independence and get shot down with rude comments but they always come back because their belief in Scottish independence is so strong.
    I think this whole story about British nationalist trolls on wings is a fabricated nonsense invented by the “troll catchers” who puff up their own importance .

    So much is presented on here as fact when it’s just opinion
    Pinch of salt

  133. robertknight

    galamcennalath@ 10:36

    Careful not to let a sense of paranoia enter into the debate as to how to achieve independence.

    IndyRef2 is not the only means, and those who ask what may be ‘awkward’ questions or pose different scenarios may simply be trying to get others to see the wider picture, the strengths, opportunities, threats and alternatives which exist.

    The echo chamber which is Wings is all very well for mutual back slapping, groupthink and general flaming of those with whom the pack of regular contributors doesn’t agree. But stifling debate may well prevent others from pointing out the weaknesses in a particular approach which may not be apparent to those who advocate it.

    Everyone needs to challenge and be open to being challenged. Only then does a strategy become able to withstand the onslaught which will surely follow.

  134. CameronB Brodie

    Hopefully, Scotland’s future will be decided through an observance of international Treaty law and ethical reason. However, I have very little foundation for such hope (see British history). I’m a great believer in emotional intuition though, and an egalitarian community of spirit in Scotland that is the polar opposite of contemporary (white) British nationalism. Scotland does not have the same problem with racism as England does, our ‘nationalism’ supports multicultural tolerance.

    The Real John Locke—and Why He Matters

    ….Treating tradition or revelation as seriously as one treated reason did not fit in mainline 20th century philosophical thinking, as Brad S. Gregory’s The Unintended Reformation (2012) makes clear. Monist rationalism, monist empiricism, or monist revelation were the categories into which thinkers were placed. But it is difficult to place Locke only with Plato or Descartes, as a rationalist, since he has also been called the founder of British empiricism—of “empirical science,” as Feser puts it.

    That dualism is actually why Locke is said to lack coherence. Locke holds that there are “things above reason,” that these things above reason are matters of faith and revelation, and that “an evident revelation ought to determine our assent, even against probability.” One, thus, can find rationalistic, empirical and revelational aspects in Locke’s thinking.

    Locke is not alone in viewing reason as a synthesis of rationalistic, empirical, and tra­ditional elements (with the last-mentioned a combination of common sense, instinct, and revelation). St. Thomas attempted an explicit synthesis of Christian revelation and philosophy. As explained by John Courtney Murray’s The Problem of God (1964), in medieval scholasticism, truth

    was a many-sided edifice. . . . I should say rather that there was one universe of truth, within which different kinds of truth, and correspondingly different methodologies for their pursuit, existed in distinction and in unity. Moreover . . . there prevailed the robust belief that between the valid conclusions of ra­tional thought and the doctrines of faith no unresolved clash could or should oc­cur.

    As Gregory documents, this thinking eroded in the fierce battles that later took place between Reformation and Counter-reformation theorists.

    Still, there is even a modern, non-revelational defense of such synthetic thinking. In his 1965 monograph “Kinds of Rationalism,” F.A. Hayek, following Karl Popper, distinguished between a “constructive rationalism” that starts unambiguously from single essences and derives all results from them, and a “critical rationalism” that relies upon different reasoning methods—rationalism, empiricism, and even common sense and intuition—to arrive at conclusions through many means.

    A master axiom is not necessary or even possible, these thinkers argue, as does Gregory. In Conjectures and Refutations (1963), Popper even gives tradition the pre-eminent place in the process of understanding. Hayek specifically includes Aristotle (as opposed to Plato) and St. Thomas, as well as Locke, among the epistemological pluralists.

    Strauss, of course, knew the Thomist synthesis but rejected it because it was a “dual­ism.” He rejected any attempt to use different methodologies for what he viewed as undifferentiated reality requiring a single rationality. Feser recognized that Locke was seeking a “middle way” but said it is impossible to avoid the skepticism, subjectivism, and irrationalism he sought to avoid unless it is fully accepted that a natural order “is knowable to reason” in an absolute, Aristotelian sense. Unlike Strauss’s critique, Feser’s is that Locke does not accept enough of Thomism to make his “delicate balance” successful.

    There is no question Locke did move away from Aristotle and the ancients. But so did St. Thomas. The nature of the break was in Christianity itself. Feser writes that virtue and morality for the Thomist “need not be determined by an appeal to God’s commands” but is solely rational. Yet, he was careful to qualify that “the Thomistic conception [is] largely (though not wholly) secular.” That “not wholly” is critical indeed. In fact, the very structure of Thomas’ Summa Theologica (he did not call it a Summa Philosophica) routinely adds a Christian revelation to Aristotle to complete the explanation.

    Pure Aristotelianism has been a difficult sell ever since its physics fell to Newtonian mechanics but, even more importantly, the absoluteness of mechanics today has fallen to probability. As philosopher Richard Rudner argued, it appears that “an adequate reconstruction of the procedures of science would show that every scientific inference is properly construable as a statistical inference.” As Feser recognizes, probability is in fact essential to Locke.

    Feser is concerned about Locke’s undermining of essentialism by excluding “substantial forms, substance, essence, identity and so forth” from “knowledge in the strict sense.” Yet, even he concedes that Locke accepts forms in a less strict sense and, more important, that Aristotle’s idea of forms is more material than Plato’s and, most important of all, that for Thomists knowledge “is always going to be limited in various significant ways,” which was Locke’s point.

    “There is a difference between knowing an absolute and knowing an absolute absolutely,” as Richard Weaver put it. Adds Weaver: “It is even more certain there is a difference between knowing an absolute and applying an absolute absolutely.”

  135. galamcennalath

    @Terry callachan

    It’s not as simple as Yes to No, it’s about making people so fed up they just go away. They might contribute elsewhere, but they might not. How many times have we seen folks say they’ve had enough? Seems a regular occurrence to me.

  136. Cubby

    Phoney independence supporters claiming there are no phoney independence supporters posting on Wings. LOL

    All these phoney independence supporters have their own script to follow. The most objectionable IMO is the one who is the the anti English racist.

  137. robertknight

    galamcennalath@ 11:04

    Don’t have the answer I’m afraid. These places can be all welcoming or simply bear pits. All you can do is try to bring an open mind, a civil tongue, and a thick skin. (Easier said than done mind you).

  138. Terry callachan

    To Robert Knight your post 1043pm 25th May

    I know it’s amazing isn’t it , A friend of mine also 63 visits war graves in France Belgium etc he goes by coach specially arranged tours to visit war graves from WWll the thing is none of his relatives fought in the war nobody he has ever known fought in that war so he is visiting graves of total strangers.
    He watches war films all the time watches the great escape and the dam busters over and over again he is obsessed by WWll and dislikes “the Germans” but he’s never met one or spoken to one.
    How can that be ? It’s weird.
    I think he has been brainwashed by the continual showing of war films and war documentaries on tv remember that programme “world at war” it went on for years why would anyone want to watch it
    the droll voiceover Britain always the goodie Germans always the baddies.

    Remember the falklands too he worships that as well like so many do it’s crazy.That bloke they brought on tv especially to report the news of the Falkland war with his penny rounder nhs specs talking in that voice commentators used to use on the tv in the fifties just to make people reminisce the good old days of the war.
    They’re all bonkers in my opinion.
    I hate wars.All wars.They are all unnecessary.Only the poor partake in wars the royal families and governments of the world move to safer ground.

  139. Terry callachan

    To Galamcennalath ..your post of 1104pm 25th May

    very true they might just go away I agree

    Robert Knight makes a good point , open mind civil tongue thick skin

    The few on here who claim to be “british nationalist catchers” are a bit loopy but they support Scottish independence and in my book that makes them an ally

    I’m an army kid lived in many countries around the world went to 26 different schools as a result of that traveling so I’m never perturbed by “catchers” of any sort.
    They all tend to use the same tactics which is quite funny really

  140. Liam

    Jack collatin says:
    25 May, 2019 at 2:19 pm

    I note that Prof Curtice and the MSDM have not published exit polls; so it must be bad for the Iron Heel Oligarchy,the Elite of whom Farage and his Filthy Rich backers can easily classified.

    To be fair:

    They can’t actually legally publish any

    This is because we voted on Thursday, along with the Netherlands, the rest of the EU vote on Friday, Saturday and Sunday

    Exit polls will then be available on Sunday night once polling closes in ALL countries.

    No opinion or exit poll can be published until after the polls have closed.

  141. CameronB Brodie

    Reason is essential to liberty, equality and justice. Farage is not speaking to reason, he is speaking to a culture that is undergoing a crises of identity. His opportunisim is strategically well-timed and he poses a serious threat to open, liberal, society in Britain and Europe.

    Rationality and Freedom

    Rationality and freedom are among the most profound and contentious concepts in philosophy and the social sciences. In two volumes on rationality, freedom, and justice, the distinguished economist and philosopher Amartya Sen brings clarity and insight to these difficult issues. This volume—the first of the two—is principally concerned with rationality and freedom.

    Sen scrutinizes and departs from the standard criteria of rationality, and shows how it can be seen in terms of subjecting one’s values as well as choices to the demands of reason and critical scrutiny. This capacious approach is utilized to illuminate the demands of rationality in individual choice (including decisions under uncertainty) as well as social choice (including cost benefit analysis and environmental assessment).

    Identifying a reciprocity in the relationship between rationality and freedom, Sen argues that freedom cannot be assessed independently of a person’s reasoned preferences and valuations, just as rationality, in turn, requires freedom of thought. Sen uses the discipline of social choice theory (a subject he has helped to develop) to illuminate the demands of reason and the assessment of freedom. The latter is the subject matter of Sen’s previously unpublished Arrow Lectures included here.

    The essays in these volumes contribute to Sen’s ongoing transformation of economic theory and social philosophy, and to our understanding of the connections among rationality, freedom, and social justice.

  142. geeo

    Cubby @11.11pm

    Callachan think we have forgotten what he is.

    Hence he is ‘Terry’ Callachan not ‘terence’ anymore.

    For the record, he is an anti english bigot as Cubby says.

    No friend of Scottish indy.

  143. chicmac

    The movement to convert English Nationalism into full blown Nazism
    is a many headed beast, long in the making.

    The first head has been lopped off, even if she never realised she was one, but, like the Hydra, there are many more ready to rise up.

    A Hercules will be required to dispatch the beast. Corbyn may yet surprise us, though the only point of commonality I have so far discerned is a, perhaps apocryphal, penchant for sandals.

  144. cirsium

    @capella, 10.07, @yesindyref2, 10.21

    and Rory is also a Bilderberger

  145. Hamish100

    The Tory minister Rory Stewart says he will NOT serve under Boris Johnston.. Seems to me even BBC Scotland can ask Davidson and Mundell will they do likewise?

    Will they ask?

  146. Brian Doonthetoon

    Rory Stewart presented a totally fictional documentary in 2014, about “The Middleland”, a region he had created in his own imagination, covering the area from Scotland’s central belt down to the Tyne/Tees latitude.

    And this propaganda was broadcast on national TV (BBC2, if I remember correctly.)

  147. Scot Finlayson

    Another type of troll is a `Sealion`,
    or to use the verb, sealioning,

    where the troll joins the discussion (usually very politely) then takes over by constant banal postings that steer the conversation down inane turgid topics so that real posters become so bored they forget the original topic and switch of,

    just sayin.

  148. Iain mhor

    @chris downie 12:06pm
    Yeah it was a long post ago, I’m just catching up.
    It’s not for the SNP to deliver independence (I kinda pointed this out before) its for Scots to deliver it. They just give us the vehicle. They gave it once 5 yr ago and Scots shoved it over a cliff. They may manage to salvage something and drag out another vehicle, maybe a battered old caravan – what happens to that is nothing to do with the SNP – if Scots cowp that into a quarry as well – nae luck.

  149. Iain mhor

    Actually, @Chris Downie, that was a bit unfair, turns out there are a lot of BTL comments tonight mentioning that it’s the SNP’s fault Scotland isn’t independent already.
    So, I do apologise if that seemed a bit targetted and personal.
    Anyway, the point was : if the SNP didn’t exist and Scots wanted Independence – they’d have to invent something akin to it, or not bother and just claim Independence en-masse anyway.
    Spoiler alert for all.and sundry : they haven’t.
    Can’t be a party’s fault then.

  150. yesindyref2

    Good link. From that it’s interesting that Stewart was made a member of the Privy Council on 3rd May. Perhaps a Mayite to continue her legacy!

  151. CameronB Brodie

    I might have mentioned before that science does to Tories what salt does to slugs. So here some cutting-edge psychology on decision making and social inertia. 😉

    Inertia and Decision Making


    Decision inertia is the tendency to repeat previous choices independently of the outcome, which can give rise to perseveration in suboptimal choices. We investigate this tendency in probability-updating tasks. Study 1 shows that, whenever decision inertia conflicts with normatively optimal behavior (Bayesian updating), error rates are larger and decisions are slower. This is consistent with a dual-process view of decision inertia as an automatic process conflicting with a more rational, controlled one.

    We find evidence of decision inertia in both required and autonomous decisions, but the effect of inertia is more clear in the latter. Study 2 considers more complex decision situations where further conflict arises due to reinforcement processes. We find the same effects of decision inertia when reinforcement is aligned with Bayesian updating, but if the two latter processes conflict, the effects are limited to autonomous choices. Additionally, both studies show that the tendency to rely on decision inertia is positively associated with preference for consistency.

    Keywords: inertia, decision making, Bayesian updating, multiple processes, perseveration, preference for consistency

  152. CameronB Brodie

    P.S. Those of us who are less open to change and who feel more comfortable with tradition and consistency, would be more than a little alarmed if they were fully aware of the likely socio-economic impact of the full-English Brexit. That might sound like scaremongering, but the professional Brexitology I’ve looked at all points to the full-English Brexit being the most traumatic political event in recent European history. Is that the picture painted by the BBC?

  153. yesindyref2

    Mmm, after a bit of reading around, I suspect Rory Stewart will be the reasonable (as opposed to wacko) unionist’s choice of PM, and I can see why. It’s that “Precious” onion thing again!

  154. Petra

    WGD:- ‘The best of both worlds.’

    ….”The best of both worlds promised by Better Together has turned out to be Boris Johnston and Nigel Farage.”…

  155. Petra

    If anyone wants to know about Rory Stewart it’s all on here, as posted, OFTEN, previously. **Some of it.** So why are some people making out that they know nought about this guy?

    Note that he was in every country that Westminster decided to invade at the right time. He also worked his butt off trying to prevent IndyRef1. MI6 agent like daddio and screwed up by daddio too, as per the usual Tory dysfunctional, familial setup. Tutor to William and Harry. Say no more.

    Stewart and Gove are the last people that we want to see become PM. All Scots should be rooting for Boris the Clown. Come on Boris we love you, lol.

  156. dakk

    ‘Rory Stewart worked for the security services. He is getting an inordinate amount of media coverage. Is is just me or does he remind anybody else of Stan Laurel?’

    Yes,it would appear it’s just you dmh.More Oliver Hardy than Stan.

    Stephen Hawkings is Rory Stewart’s doppelganger in fact.

  157. dakk

    I must add add ,no insult to the late Stephen intended.

  158. Cactus

    The Brexit Party eh… Nigel Farage eh!

    Ah saw their runners putting up vote posters in the east-end of Glasgow last Thursday morning. They were all wearing their wee ceremonial rosettes too… like little mini Farage clones

    It was most amusing watching them growl at the passers-by on the street, it must be one of their admirable characteristic qualities

    That approachability towards constituents is gonna be a vote winner for sure

    158 anna bit days to go (subject to change)

  159. Benhope

    The rain is pouring down in the north of Scotland, much to the delight of farmers, crofters and fishermen, waiting for the rivers to rise so that that this season`s salmon can return to their native spawning grounds.

    In this time of climate change, our crops of barley, cereals and potatoes plus the grass for sheep and cattle depend so much on regular rain.

    Water: another vital and normally abundant resource in our blessed Scotland.

  160. Sy Nicholl-Faighean

    ‘..But, if I was an MI5 man looking to make a name for myself, I like to think my nose would be twitching because something really stinks about Brexit, ..’

    Why would they bother? when they’re busy making names for themselves playing their ongoing games with the SNP who are regarded as a bigger threat to the continued existence of the U.K. that they’re tasked to preserve, or do you seriously think some of the more recent drama involving the SNP has been purely coincidental as to regards its ccccctiming?

    Here’s something to ponder, Once upon a time there was an individual, a man employed by someone doing something (as to who and what, no-one knew..and this was back in the days when the Grannynet knew all..). Now back in the 60’s he was in the Liberals, he then joined the Labour party in the 70s, then in the years running up to the great Communist party split, he tried joining them…unfortunately for ‘his’ plans, the party, trusting souls that they were, asked around as to who this completely unknown to anyone (or so he thought…) stranger was, and got a two word response – Police spy, so he was told where to go….

    Chastened, he departed unto the wilderness, but lo!, a couple of months later he’d wormed his way into the SNP where, despite the local branch being told by the local Communists about their, umm, ‘misgivings’ regarding Mr Duplicitous, he stayed for many a year…decades actually…pictures appearing in the local rag even…I do seem to recall he stood as a candidate for something or other.

    Not bad going for a self-proclaimed Tory (or bloody crypto-fascist, as my father used to call him).

    Games people play, eh? (and some of them have been playing the long game…find a copy of Kitson’s ‘Low Intensity Operations’ and have a good read, remembering well that one man’s Independance campaign is another man’s ‘subversion’).

  161. Cactus

    What was their The Nigel Farage Party slogan again…

    “Changing politics for good”

    Aye it would change politics ‘for good’, but NOT in a better way

    Take this song by The Scorpions par exempla:

    “The wind of war obsessed rage”

    Their message is the opposite and returning to of the above

    The Brexit Party… free subliminal DIY courses in bricklaying

    Lesson No.1: How to rebuild a wall

    Hod onna minit

  162. Dr Jim

    The thing about Farage is nobody ever checks his record of what he never did in his supposed to be job as an MEP, because he did nothing
    He has one string to his bow and it’s to complain about everybody while at the same time having no responsibility for anything
    Nigel Farage can say anything he likes on any policy knowing full well he’ll never be in the position to alter change or make it

    There’s only one thing Nigel Farage has worked out that’s correct and it’s that England is just as stupid as America because no other country in the UK has fallen for his nonsense quite as much as there, and he might not have worked that out himself either, Trump could’ve told him

    So next time you hear anybody knocking Scottish education you might mention Scotland’s youngsters urnae daft enough tae fa fur a two bit shyster like Farage

    So who ur the dummies noo

  163. Petra

    @ Sy Nicholl-Faighean says at 2:59 am …”But, if I was an MI5 man looking to make a name for myself, I like to think my nose would be twitching because something really stinks about Brexit.’’

    We don’t need MI5 to inform us that something really stinks about Brexit. Most of us know, in fact all of us visiting WINGS know exactly what’s going on.

    If I was an MI5 man (or woman) I would be, FIRST OFF, targeting people like Stu, Craig Murray and so on with dire threats or a £massive payout and taking a closer look at people like you … stinks, imo..

    ”Chastened, he departed unto the wilderness, but lol!, a couple of months later he’d wormed his way into the SNP where, despite the local branch being told by the local Communists about their, umm, ‘misgivings’ regarding Mr Duplicitous, he stayed for many a year…decades actually…pictures appearing in the local rag even…I do seem to recall he stood as a candidate for something or other. Not bad going for a self-proclaimed Tory (or bloody crypto-fascist, as my father used to call him).”

    So who exactly are you talking about Sly or Sy? We don’t do rumours or innuendo on here or haven’t you noticed Mr Duplicitous? Please back up your comments with some kind of facts / reference.

    ”Games people play, eh? (and some of them have been playing the long game…find a copy of Kitson’s ‘Low Intensity Operations’ and have a good read, remembering well that one man’s Independance campaign is another man’s ‘subversion’).”

    Games people play right enough. People like you playing wee games on here won’t wash with us Mr Sy Nicholl-Faighean. Time to get that tail between your legs and p*ss off back to SiU, imo. If they haven’t sent you here they will surely listen to you and make a meal of your rubbish.

    The bottom line is that the Independence movement doesn’t do lies such as corrupt Westminster and hey that’s what, more than anything, will see us getting our Independence, ASAP. And by the way if anyone has infiltrated the Independence movement (and I’m sure you are right as I can see it on here) they will be given short shrift in the very near future. As MI5 is watching us, we are watching them.

    Sorry to disappoint you.

  164. Cactus

    Ahm reminded of what the NOW confirmed outgoing PM said t’other day

    Said “I’m resigning as leader of the Conservative & Unionist Party”

    NOT “I’m resigning as Prime Minister of the United Kingdom”

    Did y’all pick up on that intentional subtlety aye

    The latter should be the default yeah

    For obvious reasons twas not


  165. yesindyref2

    When you think about it Scotland is 100 years behind Ireland, and all we have to do is go to the polling station and put an “X” against YES.

    My wife was born in freedom, I wasn’t.

  166. Ken500

    The seals eat the salmon. Fat blubber.

    Some whisky pay no tax on vast profits made from Scottish resources. Tax evade.

    Brexit will ruin many farms in Scotland. The average farmer is elderly and makes average earmings £27,000. The Tories took the extra EU payment intended for Scottish farmers. As part offbeat UK Scotland receives the lowest CAP payment in fhe EU.

    People in the UK have been conned by people like Farague and Johnstone and the Tories. Now getting found out. Lying psycho bastards. They will not last a month. Brexit is a complete and utter shambles. The Tories will linger on until there is a GE. Then into oblivion.

    Independence for Scotland will not be long. A better more prosperous world without the ignorant, arrogant Tories and their associates. Bringing Scotland down. Paying for illegal wars, financial fraud and tax evasion. Loan repayments on debts not borrowed in Scotland. No more mismanagement of the Scottish economy by Westminster unionist imbeciles. Farming, fishing, Oil & Gas sector mismanaged for years. Total £20Billion a year. Scotland raises £60Billion. Plus £20Billion on par with Norway.

    Iraq, Lockerbie, Dunblane kept secret for 100 years under the Official Secrets Act.

    Vote SNP/SNP. Vote for Independence,

  167. Breeks

    Sy Nicholl-Faighean says:
    26 May, 2019 at 2:59 am
    ‘..But, if I was an MI5 man looking to make a name for myself, I like to think my nose would be twitching because something really stinks about Brexit, ..’

    Why would they bother? when they’re busy making names for themselves playing their ongoing games with the SNP who are regarded as a bigger threat…

    Well, not excluding the high probability of addressing both simultaneously , and while they might take some convincing, in spite of our history, an Independent Scotland and Independent England could be a positive result for both Nations, especially if Scotland stays in Europe and forms a bridge and lifeline for trade between England and Europe after the English have left. I honestly believe we should be making the case to England that Scottish Independence isn’t the threat they perceive it to be, but could allow them to some extent hedge their bets over Brexit, with a “new” Withdrawal Agreement to keep them safe in the short term, and future Trade arrangement made safe dealing with familiar old Scotland as a buffer state with those “Johnny Foreigners” in Europe.

    I know the chances seem remote, now, maybe they always were, but if I’d been in Nicola Sturgeon shoes these past three years, we wouldn’t be in the stale scenario we are now, struggling against the weight of inertia that’s all of our own making. Scotland needs a compelling and persuasive vision to work towards and make happen, not an unplanned indefinite response to an unplanned event. How do you win support for an idea by boring people to death?

    But in terms of real, existential threat, this “Deep State” orchestrated Brexit has no silver lining in my opinion. The UK’s, (correction let’s make that England’s), traditional exceptionalism, cynicism and antithesis towards all things European has seen the UK kept at arms length from fully embracing the European dream, and just like a lone buffalo straying from the herd, the UK has revealed a solitary vulnerability which has increasingly allowed the predators to determine its movement and behaviour rather than its own instinct.

    Who, and what, this Deep State is, should be concerning everybody, because it is the same ruthless greed and colonialism which plundered the 19th Century world causing death, exploitation and misery to millions of people, billions of animals, but in the 21st Century, this omnipotent evil is ghostlike and ethereal, and transcends National boundaries at random, without the need for colonial invasion. If it wants war in a region, it will contrive one. If it wants an unsympathetic nation to fail, the Nation will experience hardship, if a successful Corporation like Europe is perceived as a threat to its “liberty”, then Europe must be destabilised.

    To swing a Referendum by buttering up a corrupt media? Child’s play. Manipulating referenda like YES 2014, Brexit 2016, or a UK General Election in 2017? When you own the media and power to steer the narrative, it’s not even difficult to manipulate opinions. The consequences however, are much more unpredictable.

    Draw up a list, a who’s who of filthy rich Elites and Oligarchs who wants to see Europe taken down a peg or two, or better yet disintegrating altogether, and I believe that’s where you will find the “real” source of the Nile for the UK’s Brexit.

    If the UK actually has a functional defence mechanism, and I mean a proper defence, there is currently a very distinct possibility it is defending itself from the wrong thing. The UK’s antibodies are not recognising the most dangerous pathogen in its system. The Deep State will squander the UK ‘s interests without guilt or remorse, because it’s greed and avarice doesn’t respect the archaic conventions of National boundaries. It’s all about the power and the money. Everything else is expendable, including the UK economy. Including the UK period, and I don’t just mean the Union, but the whole society.

    The greatest trick the Devil ever pulled was convincing the world he didn’t exist. The greatest trick the Deep State ever pulled was to hide itself behind conspiracy theories.

  168. Cactus

    Did you all get a read of THIS one yesterday…

    (Davidson talks about May then finishes with an SNPbad below)

    “She added: “Above all, by opposing the SNP’s call for an immediate second independence referendum in 2017, the Prime Minister demonstrated her resolute commitment to the Union and to Scotland’s place in it.””

    Scotland’s place in it is it? not even ‘within it’ and what IS IT anyway?

    Scotland shall no longer be placed into a union not of our choosing

    Scotland’s choice is coming again soon

  169. Terry callachan

    I think a well kent face will be the next Tory leader I doubt if Rory Stewart will be it , the Boris is front runner and will please those who choose, he has kept a lower profile recently in preparation .
    Whoever becomes prime minister will not be good for Scotland that’s for sure.

    I see Richard Murphy is suggesting that whoever is chosen as Tory leader might not get the blessing required by HM Queen and therefore Theresa May might continue as PM even though a different person is Tory leader, I confess I never thought of that possibility and actually didn’t think it was possible I assumed Theresa May’s resignation would happen simultaneously with the choosing of a new Tory leader but I suppose to avoid being primeministerless the new Tory leader has to be chosen before the existing PM resigns.

  170. Ken500

    No Brexit. May gone. The Tory unionists disintegrating. Into oblivion. The SNP winning.

    Independence soon. Scotland going it’s own way,

    What a time to be alive. YES.

  171. Nana

    Indycar video
    A May Holiday sees the announcement of a second, permanent May Holiday. 98,000 European and UK voters prevented from voting at polling stations and thousands more UK European expats are denied a vote due to slowest mail service employed to deliver postal ballots.

  172. John McLeod

    The Sky News item at the top of this post is a powerful piece of work. In a few minutes, it gets inside the world-view of Nigel Farage and his followers. The journalist making it, skilfully asking all the right questions, is Lewis Goodall. Oxford educated, CV that includes time at global centres of excellence, young, sharp, London elite. Sometimes, the medium is the message.

  173. Nana

    Fpr the eu election count follow

    Enough wishful thinking. The next PM must confront hard realities on Brexit

    Denying EU Citizens Their Vote Is An Abysmal Moment In Brexit Britain. It Cannot Stand.

  174. Robert Louis

    The problem with Eton boy toff, Roderick James Nugent Stewart. The man who likes to call himself ‘Rory Stewart’.

    1. He is a spook, and so was his daddy (MI6).

    2. He sounds very reasonable and coherent. Until he talks about Scotland. A rapid check of any history book on pretty much anything he says highlights the fact that his version of Scotland’s history is utter mince, devoid of facts, dressed up in his posh Etonian accent.

  175. Craig Murray

    It has been decided somewhere that Ruth Davidson wasn’t the great unionist saviour after all, it is Rory Stewart. He is a hard line unionist security service tool, but compared to the other Tory leadership candidates that makes him not too bad. It is a funny world, is it not?

    It is not our job to try to save England from Farage, or Boris, or whoever they want to elect. I wish the SNP would forget about the distraction of trying to stop Brexit. If England wants to Brexit, or to be led by Nigel or Boris, let them get on with it. Our work is to achieve Independence quickly and escape from their madness.

  176. Nana

    Just in case anyone might be interested, I posted a load of links including a couple of podcasts yesterday morning on ‘please-do-not-waste-this-time’ thread from 8.29am.

  177. Robert Louis

    From Nana’s links above, this is perhaps the most important of all. It raises sooooo many questions. What a mess England is in.

  178. Robert Louis

    Craig Murray at 0847am,

    Completely agree. I do doubt however, that even with his spookiness, whether Roderick ‘rory the tory’ Stewart could possibly pull together the warring factions of the Tory party. In many ways, we have two Labour parties and two Tory parties. Within each organisation we have pro brexit and anti brexit. Neither can produce a majority.

    It is a conundrum, which cannot under current political structures be solved.

    Time for Scotland to move on, away from this living hell of England’s making. Not next year, not the year after, or sometime when ‘we might know more about the brexit deal’, but now.

  179. alba

    “You don’t need to watch a 20-minute video to grasp that intellectually. But you might need to watch it to really feel it.” You called it all right.

    I’m feeling both sick & scared in equal measure after watching that.

  180. Abulhaq

    @Craig Murray 08:47
    Exactly, let England get on with England’s business. It is not our concern. Focus Ms Sturgeon!
    Great news about slithy Gove….loyalty, probity, principle, an exemplar of true Tory values.

  181. Cactus

    SO what happens IF and when The Brexit Party get into power and then drag everybuddy out of the international European Union by the end of October…

    Will they still be a political party thereafter, will they rename themselves as The Brexited Party, will they disband as Farage disappears to some foreign land

    They may be called The Brexit Party on the surface, but scratch just a little and you will find below that surface, a dark and raging racist machine

    SO many questions, SO few answers

  182. Dorothy Devine

    Hats off to that reporter , a bit of brilliant , brave and real journalism exposing the vacuous and venal.

    It occurs to me that had the SNP been afforded as much media coverage as the Nigel Farage party we would be long home and dry.

    But then we don’t have a media in Scotland , we have the equivalent of British Empire journalism telling us how lucky we are to be oppressed , depressed , repressed , supressed and bloodywell be thankful.

    The LibLabTory Party of Scotland tells us we are better together , someone should tell them to read the effects of Brexit on Scotland farming and fishing industries – I don’t think I can be any more disgusted by those so called representatives of the people .

    How any of the evil threesome dare to put ‘Scottish’ in front of their names is beyond me , and yes I know there are no such animals as the Scottish Conservatives , Scottish Labour or Scottish Liberal parties – someone should tell the media though.

    What level of stupidity, ignorance or non thinking is required to vote for any of those above including the Farage Party?

  183. Scot Finlayson

    @Craig Murray,

    `It is not our job to try to save England from Farage, or Boris, or whoever they want to elect.`

    being a Sunday i will read a sermon on the Parable of the Good Samaritan,

    It is about a Jewish traveller who is stripped of clothing, beaten, and left half dead alongside the road.

    First a priest and then a Levite comes by, but both avoid the man.

    Finally, a Samaritan happens upon the traveller. Samaritans and Jews despised each other, but the Samaritan helps the injured man.

    Jesus is described as telling the parable in response to the question from a lawyer, “And who is my neighbour?”.

    In response, Jesus tells the parable, the conclusion of which is that the neighbour figure in the parable is the man who shows mercy to the injured man—that is, the Samaritan.`

    i just think Nicola sees things in a more Christ like way,

    it`s her humanity/empathy that sets her above all other politicians.

  184. Breeks

    Robert Louis says:
    26 May, 2019 at 8:59 am
    Craig Murray at 0847am,

    Completely agree. I do doubt however, that even with his spookiness, whether Roderick ‘rory the tory’ Stewart could possibly pull together the warring factions of the Tory party….

    Don’t know about his spookiness, but after his “Auld Acquaintance” pile of stones in Gretna, his toe-curliness is quite a phenomenon.

    I note too he promotes his monument as 130k stones laid in a cairn, but neglects to mention what proportion of these 130k stones were placed by Unionists, and what proportion were delivered to the site by tipper truck and build by a Contractor.

    The farce is strong in this one…

  185. Lenny Hartley

    Cactus Re the Brexit Party, its a limited company, with a few “members” they have registered supporters who pay for the priveledge .

  186. Nana

    A few tweets spotted earlier

    This is what a crash out WTO really means. “We’ve analysed our options should we crash out and it would mean that we probably lose 50% of our business” Darren Larvin – Coombe Castle International

    Here’s a Christian or so he says who seems to be a fan of the woman whose policies have caused death and misery to the vulnerable.

    Hope this doesn’t put you off your breakfasts

    Skippy Gove? More like slippery Gove

    Rory Stewart MP.
    There’s only a Scotland because of these damn Romans.

  187. Nana

    It’s likely there will be a General Election no matter who the new PM is

    Herald article here

  188. Cactus

    Mornin’ Lenny, thx for the links, here’s a quote from the wiki one…

    “The Brexit Party is a Eurosceptic political party in the United Kingdom. Established in 2019, it is led by Nigel Farage. Ahead of the 2019 European Parliament election, the party had fourteen Members of the European Parliament (MEPs) and four Welsh Assembly Members, all of whom were originally elected as candidates of the UK Independence Party (UKIP).

    The Brexit Party campaigns for the withdrawal of the UK from the European Union (EU). Generally described as populist, it draws its support from those who are frustrated with the current implementation of the 2016 referendum decision and wish to leave the EU without remaining part of the single market or customs union.

    The Brexit Party styles itself as a being focused on the restoration of Britain’s democratic sovereignty. Its primary policy is for the UK to withdraw from EU and to trade on World Trade Organization terms until formal trade agreements can be made.”

    Boris is bad enough for the title but how does the thought and very sight of Prime Minister Nigel Farage sound to y’all… no chance, indy will do just fine

  189. Craig Murray

    Scot @9.37am once we are Independent we can find time to think about how we can help England. Until then, we need to forget it and focus on Independence.

    You may see Nicola’s concern to save England from Brexit as Christian. I see it as her being too fond of being a big wheel within the UK and lapping up the adoration from the Guardian.

  190. Fireproofjim

    What never cease to amaze me is the sheer stupidity of many of the Brexit voters in England.
    Take the Sunderland area, which was the one of the highest percentage Leave voting area in England.
    They are heavily dependent on Nissan who employ 7000 at the plant and more than 10,000 as suppliers.
    Nissan only came to Sunderland because of the tariff free access to Europe, and, before the Brexit vote, they warned that Leave would be a disaster for the plant.
    The Sunderland voters still voted leave and now seem to be surprised and resentful that Nissan have moved production of their latest model to Japan, who has just negotiated a free trade deal with the EU.
    And that’s what is going to happen to hundreds of companies in the future.
    At least we can get out. Vote for Independence and soon.

  191. Cactus

    Aye that last bit again…

    “Its primary policy is for the UK to withdraw from EU and to trade on World Trade Organization terms until formal trade agreements can be made.”

    How long are you realistically planning to trade under WTO terms Nigel? Would that be 1 year, 5 years, 10 years, indefinitely mibbies?

    Cause knowing how all you ukUnionist politicians go about negotiating with other peoples, yer track record disnae stand ye in guid stead

  192. Hamish100

    I see the Tory Twominey the ex MP is back on the BBC Marr programme this morning.

    She represents the torygraph more than any representative from Scotland. Impartiality BBC style.

  193. Undeadshuan

    I’m halfway through the video and it’s so depressing.

    I made a prediction in 2014 that the UK (England) would turn into the next facist state and probably start the next war.

    It looks like that is going to happen under a Farage fascist government.

    I really worry for the future.

  194. Undeadshuan

    WW3 axis of evil will be Farages England and trumps USA.

    Maybe climate change or an asteroid is not so bad, certainly a better way to go than a nuclear war.

  195. Abulhaq

    “Great Britain has lost an empire and has not yet found a role”
    (Dean Acheson at West Point 5 December 1962)
    It’s still looking, and it is not Scotland’s responsibility to help the core British state find one.
    England’s a big boy with a historic record as a big bully boy to boot.
    So let Scottish nationalist leaders be motivated by concern for Scotland’s interests.
    The populist political trend in England is to our advantage. Save the sympathy and altruism for more deserving cases.

  196. Undeadshuan

    Finished watching it.

    One word to describe it depressing!

  197. Undeadshuan

    The only way I could see Farages brexit party failing, would be by the torys bringing in a basic income of 17000 for everyone, or targeted in the Midlands and North of England ‘as a trial’

  198. yesindyref2

    @Craig Murray
    The problem is that the NO side would point out that our neighbour is in trouble and that we’d be abandoning them – “Imagine if we’d done that in the Second World War!”.

    It also would be better for Scotland if the rUK’s economy was sound, rather than totally knackered by Brexit.

    Yes, it does look like Rory Stewart has been appointed the next best blue-eyed boy by some. That won’t be good for Scotland.

  199. haudonthenoo

    NB Brexit Party are no such thing – they have no members so can easily infiltrate the Tories (already many new “members”).

    Scary times.

  200. Ken500

    Brexit non Party are only polling 16% in a GE. Less than they were before? Another Farague the failure.

    It does not matter who the Tories chose for PM, they are toast.

    What a complete and utter shambles.

    The Russia won the 11WW, saved the West. 26Millions Russians died. I/2Milion British/French, 2million US.

    The Russian economy was devastated. More people have been realeased to self determination and self governance since 1990’s in history. 150Million people. Gorbachev, Yeltsin and Putin. Glasnost and Perestroika. The Russian (USSR) population has halved. Putin supported Scottish Independence. Russia spends the least on the military pro rata in the world. $59Billion.

    Johnstone tried to get Trump to start a conflict on the Russian border. Trump refused. Trump might be daft but not daft enough to start WW111. Yet. In fact he does try to speak to people. North Korea etc. The US has been sanctioning and starving North Korea since the 1950’s. The Chinese have to help them out.

    Farague went down a bomb in the US. Trying to defraud US public money and contracts. They told him to get lost. The Americans do not appreciate posh Eton boys. The UK secret service were spying on Trump for the Democratic administration. Clinton paid for a dirty (Russian) dossier on Trump. Made it up.

  201. Heart of Galloway

    BBC Shortbread exposed in all its UKOK glory just now on Sunday Politics.
    After considered responses to Gordon Brewer’s ‘what next’ scenarios Ian Blackford quit with the shadow boxing.
    “I suppose for me and the SNP,” he said, “it makes the point that we have the option of Scottish independence because we have to protect ourselves…”
    Brewer: “Right! Thank you very much for joining us.”
    Quite clearly the order has gone out to smother any notion that Scotland and its people have the power to take matters into their own hands.
    It was as shameful as it was predictable.
    The closer we get the worse this will get.

  202. PacMan

    re: Saving England from itself.

    It isn’t the role of us Scots to save England from itself. It is also quite arrogant to suggest that England needs saved from anybody, even us.

    The reality is however that if Scotland wants to be an independent country then it needs to act as on. In the current world-stage which is now becoming fragmented into regional super-blocs, an independent Scotland would have to be small nation being part of the European Union.

    To do that, we need to co-operate with other European countries in that union and have the same aims as them. Part of that means that if any country has policies that could destabilize the region then we need to work together to find a solution to minimise that destabilisation or seek a compromise that can contain it.

    Realpolitik demands that while at the moment we are not an independent country, we need to show that we have the responsibility to be one. In a way, it is a form of probation and quite frankly, if we are to gain support in Europe then we need to act like a nation that is serious in being co-operative rather than isolationist.

    The only way we can do this is to try, with the limited influence we have, is to try and get an outcome with Brexit that is the least harmful to us and to Europe.

  203. Breeks

    Fireproofjim says:
    26 May, 2019 at 10:24 am
    What never cease to amaze me is the sheer stupidity of many of the Brexit voters in England.
    Take the Sunderland area, which was the one of the highest percentage Leave voting area in England…

    It’s indoctrination Fireproofjim. Suppression of rational thinking to be supplanted by irrational response to controlled stimulus. It’s why Geordies vote for Brexit, and Proud ScotButs vote for the Union. It doesn’t make sense objectively, but if you’re not thinking rationally, you’re not being objective either. That’s why their arguments are are so feeble and threadbare, and Ruth Davidson can’t present a policy or a principle that isn’t subjective emotional claptrap.

    The people aren’t stupid but conditioned. The people have been cynically manipulated by the British media for decades.

  204. ahundredthidiot

    Mondays results will be a shocker.

    Scotland needs to call indyref2 the other side of them.

    If we lose – we deserve everything we get.

  205. starlaw

    Rory Stewart
    I believe he spent a year as an officer in the Black Watch. If so can anyone shed any light on if this is true. If it is true did he go through any basic training or was he just there by Entitlement.

  206. Tatu3

    This is The Guardians video when attending a Brexit Party rally, another very scary viewing

  207. Patrick Roden

    Right now Westminster politicians are feeling under attack, being called ‘("Tractor" - Ed)s’, ‘cowards’, ‘undemocratic’ etc, and the Brexit Party is reaping the benefits.

    The only chance they have of clawing back any credibility and more importantly for them, enough votes to win any election, is for someone who is every bit as right-wing as Nigel, who speaks the same kind of populist, bombastic language, and can epitomize the ‘English Bulldog Spirit’ the way Nigel does.

    As far as most of the Tory membership is concerned, that man is Boris Johnson.

    We have moved into a stage, were no amount of rational argument will placate the anger and feelings of betrayal or national humiliation that far too many of the English right feel.

    The fact that Boris has said he want’s to cut Scotland’s money and will ‘come up to sort us out’ if we complain, won’t damage his chances, it will enhance them!

    One good thing though, Scottish Unionists won’t have anywhere to hide when Boris gets into number 10. They won’t be able to use the tired old ‘Proud Scots But’ routine any longer if they still support the union with him in charge.

    We might just hear some new songs being belted out at Ibrox:

    ‘A pound spent in Croydon, is better than a pound spent in Strathclyde’

    ‘We are Rangers, super Rangers, we’ve been sacked, we don’t care’

    ‘God save our gracious queen, then bend us over with some Vaseline’

    Ah well, never mind!

  208. Al-Stuart

    Thank goodness,

    @craigmurray and just now on Sunday Politics with Ian Blackford, I think our route to Scottish Independence may be evident…

    Stuart Campbell seems the sole observer who recognises Westminster Parliament has Virtually run out of sitting days between now and 31st October 2019 to sort out the Brexshit mess. Ergo…

    ‘No Brexit’ is likely because there is little time left.

    ‘No Brexit’ is likely because PM Boris will run the clock down.

    ‘No Brexit is likely because tonight’s EU results will scare the wits out of the Zombie Tory Party and pull a replacement Tory PM to ‘No Brexit’.

    Add to this inexorable gravitational pull to ‘No Brexit’ the fact that without Scotland, the leave vote was 53.019%.

    All of this may illustrate Scotlands route to the UK exit door…

    UK PARLIAMENT defied the Tory Government and has legislated AGAINST a No Deal.

    IF and it is not guaranteed, but IF the UK Parliament continues it’s revulsion at No Deal, then Parliament MIGHT revoke Article 50.

    I believe that IF Article 50 is revoked and Brexit killed off, the 15,188,406 Leave voters in England will BLAME Scotland as many did in 1979 with the old trope that “the SNP helped Thatcher become Prime Minister.”

    The majority of voters in England will DEMAND a second Brexit referendum as they cry foul at Brexit1 being mudddrrrd by the Scots.

    Between the angry England Brexit Brigade spouting anti-Scots mince + the rabidly anti-Scots PM Boris Johnson + precedent for a second referendum, I believe Scotland may well be granted our IndyRef2.

    For those English lurkers on WoS who may not quite have gotten the Scottish psyche, one thing that really pisses Scots off is when you slag us off and tell us not to do something 😉 .

    This may not be the most elegant solutions, but it is my suggested thesis upon which we will become independent. It is classic politics. As with the making of sausages, not a pretty sight when you see politcs (and many politicians) close up.

    English leavers blaming Scotland for the euthenasia of their beloved BREXIT may help our way out of this mess. The population of England is roughly 10 times that of Scotalnd. If England decides Scotland must go, then that is probably how we achieve our removal from the rump of what was a very powerful empire upon which the sun never set.

    Does anyone else have thoughts on our routemap through this Westminster bourach to the point where Scotland gets free of our self-destructive English neighbours?

  209. Frank Gillougley

    galamcennalath 10.36 and onwards last night

    I agree.

    Never mind pondering the imponderables but focusing on converting the former no voters as a priority here is a polling sub-sample of our house last night (a tad on the small side admittedly, but it illustrates 2 simple points)

    1. In countering the exclusive arguments put forward by TC and others
    2. to the simple point of getting former no voters to change their minds for the only poll that will matter when it happens as it surely will.

    A 65 year old Hungarian woman SNP
    A 56 year old Hungarian woman SNP
    A 45 year old French woman SNP
    A 70 year old English woman GREEN
    A 50 year old Scottish man SNP (former no voter converted by drip drip methods)
    This 60 year old Scots Irish man SNP

    2 reasons to be optimistic and why not? The solid quiet joy in hearing someone previously sceptical and decidedly unionist now saying they’ll vote SNP is well worth the wait.

  210. Dr Jim

    Ruth Davidson will never have any strategy other than Nicola Sturgeon Bad she must keep fanning the flames of sectarianism and England superiority and loyalty over and over again

    The problem the Yes side have is that you can’t argue with stupid, the people who voted No in 2014 for the above reasons will do the same again no matter any scenario or consideration for economic reasons, even if it means Scotland goes down the toilet these people will not budge in exactly the same way as the folk in England who voted Brexit are watching huge businesses fold and leave the UK,
    they just don’t care because they believe the garbage they were told by people like Farage that their empire would rise again if only they have faith

    Some folk in some areas of Scotland don’t see the overtness of the sectarian vote but right across the central belt it’s there and it’s strong, and that’s where the majority of the population are

    We know that business doesn’t want Brexit we can see that every day but the same folk that voted No to Independence won’t see or hear that message, they don’t want to know

    So how do you persuade the unpersuadable, you can’t! until the Titanic actually hits the iceberg then the hope that natural preservation will force the *staunch* and the bitter to put the cross in the Independence box albeit probably still screaming defiance by not telling anybody they did it secretly

    I believe that’s one of the reasons why the SNP are taking things slowly, to make doubly sure we don’t lose again by aquiescing to the screams of *do it now* too early

    There are a lot of people doing quite well out of *supporting* Scottish Independence who’ll not do quite so well after we win it, so losing isn’t such a big deal to them because they can continue right on raking it in and yelling about what should have happened for a good couple of years after we lose

    If you join the orchestra you play the music that’s written down or the conducter and the rest of the orchestra throw you out because you’re no help

    It’s how the Tories win, they know what they’re going to do they’re only discussing how they’re going to fool the population into making them believe they want it

  211. Socrates MacSporran

    Al-Stuart @ 12.09pm

    Just one thing wrong with your post: you assume PM Boris.

    Does Boris have enough support within the sitting Toerag MPs to get his name onto the ballot sheet?

    He is almost universally loathed within the Parliamentary party – his biggest supporter is probably Ross Thomson. Thus, going on the basis of by their friends shall ye know them, he’s not got a lot going for him.

    I accept, if he gets onto the final run-off ballot by the grass roots party in England, he will probably win. Getting that far is going to be his problem.

    I can almost see an Anyone But Boris campaign forming. PM Boris is far from a given.

  212. Confused

    “power, corruption and lies.”

    farage and brexit is NOT any worse than BoJo/ReesMogg and the tory party – which disnae really say much
    – its like a choice between glioblastoma and pancreatic cancer – its different, yes, but either way you are TOTAL FUCKED
    – I always thought hard brexit was inevitable because of the DUP; accept the gift and use it

    farage is a spook or their creation – there are so many smells about him
    – the BBC and all the media allow him a platform and kowtow to him, even when he was a nobody from nowhere
    – there is heaps of money behind him – this politics is costly – what slush fund is he drawing from
    – no journalist ever gives him a hard time – ever – they ALLOW him to talk over them
    – the purpose of “extreme groups” on the right (on the left they fulfill a different role) is to pull the spectrum of politics to the right, then usually fade away
    – there is a progression of these parties, failing technically, but doing their job, and each time upping their game – national front, BNP, referendum party, UKIP and now the brexit party; each time smoothing off the rough edges – even nick griffin got onto question time, only to be savaged.
    – the UKIP operation seems to have been “burned” as soon as the loonies and youtube shitlords – sargon, dankula – turned up
    – having your tentacles into the tory party (and others) is one thing, but having total control of your own party, in govt, is on a different level; we may be seeing a complete capture of the govt by the spooks

    so what.

    there is a danger in failing to recognise your own power, by being corrupted by your enemies mindset and conceptual framework; here’s something radical to think of

    – scotland could become independent within a COUPLE OF DAYS, if the FM just calls it, flies to the UN and the US President recognises us – that is all it takes.
    (- except Trump is in power and our leaders seem to take pleasure in tweaking the fragile narcissists ego)

    theres a lot of lawyers on wings at times and guys – sorry, but you piss me off – this is realpolitik, big boys games – and the rule is – there are no rules, you can do anything you want AS LONG AS YOU CAN MAKE IT STICK – law follows power. And there is no way to “lawyerise” your way out of the union.

    england could not do anything against a fellow nato country, and an eu member; american corporations own a lot of prime real estate here – trumps golf course – do you really think they will try a gunboat up the clyde? We need to call their bluff. (I used to worry about the catalonian aspects – but these evaporate as long as the FM has been talking to the right people on her travels.)

    what you want – what you get – what you deserve, all very different things.

    israel. kosovo. ? others – have done a lot more with less moral justification.

    – get enough hard-soft power behind you (“hauners”), establish “facts on the ground” and its -amazing- how quickly a situation can become “legitimised”.

  213. Abulhaq

    The so called ‘Brexit party’ is just the Middle England Daily Mail faction of the Conservative party, not exactly a new political phenomenon but one which has finally found a champion of its ‘values’, or so it is imagined by the stoked Make Britain Great Again devotees.

  214. Col.Blimp IV

    Breeks says:
    “The people aren’t stupid but conditioned. The people have been cynically manipulated by the British media for decades.”

    I wouldn’t argue against that.

    But media conditioning re-Brexit/Brexitiers has been overwhelmingly negative.

    Not having spent more than a couple of days in Sunderland in the last decade, I have no Idea to what extent the people there feel, that their culture has been diluted/modified by immigration, EU driven or otherwise. Which is I believe is the prime mover re Knee-jerk Brexitism.

    There is a type of conditioning which I find particularly troublesome and SNPers seem to have imbibed it in tumphs, it is the belief that any who deviate from the one true path of “Independence in Europe” is some kind of disloyal splitter.

  215. Welsh Sion

    starlaw @ 11.51 am

    More on Rory Stewart in HM Forces.
    (Bottom of column 1)
    (Top of column 1)

  216. Clootie

    The Tory plan is to save the Party by being more for Brexit than the Brexiteers?
    They will defeat the EU and secure a special deal?
    They will defeat the Commons using technical measures?
    They will Unite the country?

    Very scary that Phillip Hammond is the voice of reason!

    If Independence is not secured this time then it never will.

  217. Bob Mack


    Are people actually too stupid to realise that at some future point this “country” of the UK is going to have to negotiate trading terms with the EU, which is a huge trading block?

    They will then dictate what we need to do to join in that trade.

    This whole Brexit thing is just to persuade the predominantly gullible English voter that they are being considered and that Johnny foreigner has been excluded..

    We will have out of necessity to trade with the EU markets regardless of what the public think at some point.

  218. yesindyref2

    Mmm, there seems to be a narrative arising in Scotland, which tells us to focus on BoJo. The three top main page headlines in the Herald in that weird block of theirs where you have to click twice for items 2 or 3:

    “Boris Johnson under pressure over attacks on Scotland’s public spending”

    “Paul Hutcheon: The SNP will be the winner if Boris becomes PM”

    “Herald on Sunday opinion: Boris Johnson must call a General Election”

    and even The National top online story:

    ” Expert pollster: No-deal Johnson would give Scotland independence majority”

    So yeah, hey, let’s all pat ourselves on the back and say “Ain’t BoJO great, the best thing for Independence since sliced dog food”.

    And focus on him, campaign on the basis of him as PM for the next 2 months, put all our eggs in one basket, suck all our milkshakes with one straw, base our whole Indy campaign around BoJo as PM.

    And then along comes someone else, like Rory Stewart for instance, and that’s us fucked in our echo chamberness.

  219. Sarah

    @Frank G at 12.36: well done you. I am still waiting for such a moment!

  220. Robert Peffers


    Had an argument with a friend this morning about the TV licence fee and who gets the money. I had the most awful job finding the right information as, “They don’t want you to know that.”

    However I did eventually track it down and here is a web address that tells the truth. Wingers may like to note it for future use:-

    Wingers may also like to know that the licence fee cash is also used to fund the BBC Overseas Service and other things than just the BBC TV and radio services.

    Here is a cut & paste of a bit from the above website:-

    “Although the money is raised for its own use, the BBC does not directly use the collected fees. The money received is first paid into the government’s Consolidated Fund. It is subsequently included in the ‘vote’ for the Department of Culture, Media and Sport in that year’s Appropriation Act, and passed back to the BBC for the running of the BBC’s own services (free from commercial advertisements). The money also finances programming for S4C and the BBC World Service, (a massive Worldwide UK propaganda tool)(my note)), as well as to run BBC Monitoring at Caversham.”

  221. Calum McKay

    Just imagine you are a Polish plumber, an Italian care worker, a French doctor or a Spanish IT consultant working in Scotland?

    What would induce EU citizens with skills and aspirations to stay in Scotland or the uk?

    There is human tragedy behind Farage’s rhetoric that destroys lives of those EU folk living in Scotland and the lives of Scots that rely on the services these folk provide.

    The north, midlands and rural areas of England have not prospered and have seen sharp declines in public services through out austerity. That’s what Farage’s support is based.

    Johnson will try to capitalise upon this feeling of resentment adding Scotland to the list of bogeymen in the hope this increases his base in England.this should revolt all Scots. Johnson won’t be able to help himself, he will use dog whistle politics aligned to Barnett formula attacks.

    This is both a threat to and opportunity for Scotland to gain independence, we need to grab it, we will only grab it through unity and common purpose!

  222. yesindyref2

    That National article, and its report by Mark Diffley is actually a good one:

    for instance as Angus Robertson said:

    So for me, the thing to watch out for in the leadership race, at least in the immediate term is the eventual winner’s stance on the type of Brexit we are likely to get rather than on whether people in Scotland like him or her. The key factor is really about where they stand on Brexit.

    though on the other hand, BoJo does have that certain … something.

  223. Robert Peffers


    Another By the way post: Check out what that BBC Faversham Mansion House they want to transfer to a new address in London does for the BBC on behalf of the Westminster Establishment. Just think that it is UK licence fee payers that fund it.

    The reason you have trouble finding out things about the BBC is that they have, since the BBCV was taken over and funded by Westminster is the brainwashing lies they have always maintained that the TV Licence fee is what pays for BBC Programmes. It doesn’t and it never has done. Who knows the difference between what they collect for the consolidated fund and how much of it goes to the BBC and gets used for programme making?

  224. Abulhaq

    Whoever heads the Tories will make little difference, all the candidates are trad.unionists. Scotland is property not to be given away, we may think our people sovereign but to them we’re tenants on a nice bit of real estate acquired three centuries ago in a slick piece of horse-trading.
    The tenor of the leadership campaign will be determined by the results of Thursday’s poll so be ready for ‘It’s all about England’, episode #2…..yawn!

  225. Robert Peffers

    @Sarah says: 25 May, 2019 at 9:35 pm:

    … O/T re ebikes – see over on Off Topic, please.”

    Sorry I’m a bit late as I was off researching other things. I’ve left a reply on off-topic for you.

  226. Robert Peffers

    @RobertTheTruth says: 25 May, 2019 at 5:39 pm:

    … “Peffers, your deference to the ‘British State’ you claim does not exist knows no bounds. Your grandiose claims are becoming more and more ridiculous.

    I couldn’t be bothered reading right through that pile of ordure, I’ve more to do with my time. There has never been such a thing as, “The British State”.

    To the best of my knowledge there are eight British States. Only one of them is daft enough to imagine it is such a thing and that entirely due to English exceptionalism.

    Awa an bile yer heid.

  227. Abulhaq

    @Robert Peffers
    The overseas service of the BBC is a professional piece of soft power to which Scots pay their levy. However, in the foreign language output you would be hard pressed to find references to Scotland beyond the banal, certainly nothing about the different political culture of the country.
    In the same domain is the self styled British Council staffed by individuals for whom Scotland is on a par with Yorkshire.
    Paradoxically, the Brexit farago is trailed to the overseas audience as a unique example of the vibrancy of the UK political system. No one else does it quite like the Brits and with such aplomb.
    Here the medium is definitely the message. Soft power disguising an iron fist.

  228. Robert Peffers

    @Terry callachan says: 25 May, 2019 at 5:41 pm:

    … “Only someone who had lost the war would sign an agreement like this”
    How often did we hear that in this video ?
    “We beat them twice in the war we will beat Germany again”

    I think you may actually be missing the point there Terry.

    First of all, “Britain”, was not even in the War – only part of it was. Ireland, (the republic), was neutral.

    However even that is not the point – the oft heard claims that, “England stood alone”, or, “Who do you think you are kidding Mr Hitler if you thing old England’s done”, are mince.

    Not only were the entire United Kingdom in the war but so also were the entire Commonwealth, Russia and all the free continentals including the Free French and Free Poles and so on. Latterly, of course, so were the USA.

    The saying post war, at least around Scotland, was that, “Britain won the war but lost the peace”.

  229. Petra

    Thanks for posting such informative links Nana resulting in, I have to say, my house, garden and husband being neglected, lol.

    I reckon that the ‘No Deal’ applicants for the PM job, such as Bojo, will be given short shrift …. unfortunately. Rory the Tory Stewart, said to be the most intelligent of all Tory politicians (if there is such a thing), would fit the Unionist bill of holding the Union together. Holding onto Scotland the cash cow.


    …”So what is left? The leader could attempt to pivot to no-deal. No doubt they will have insisted for many months that such an outcome would be tolerable or even desirable. But there was no parliamentary appetite for self-immolation before and there will be none now. Any prime minister who sought to drive us off the cliff would be ejected before they even switched on the engine.

    And so the end of this story is that nothing in it has changed. The new PM will be unable to pass the current deal through parliament, unable to renegotiate a new deal with Brussels, and unable to take us out of the EU with no deal at all. The Tory Party will be trapped in a hell entirely of its own making. Worse still, May will no longer be there to absorb the shock. Having successfully defenestrated their scapegoat, her successor will have to apportion blame closer to home.

    Then finally, the truth. Brexit cannot be resolved because it was never meant to be. After three years and two defeated prime ministers, it lays waste to everything before it. The next prime minister will confront the same reality and the same disaster. The only roads out are a general election, which promises oblivion for the Tories and possibly also Labour, or a second referendum, which promises torture for the whole country. Until our leaders have the bravery to admit Brexit can’t be finished, Brexit will finish them.”


    Twenty seven years! Dearie me. Have any Unionist Westminster politicians actually looked into this, lol?


    …”Mr Allan (President of the CBI) said: “Anyone who believes that a no-deal Brexit is going to be anything other than very damaging for this country is living in cloud cuckoo land. And anyone who believes that if you leave the EU we will then be able to sit down with them and be able to negotiate in double-quick time a future relationship are in a different kind of cloud cuckoo land.

    “I had a conversation with the Swiss ambassador only a few weeks ago, who told me that the Swiss starting debating their relationship with the EU 27 years ago and they haven’t yet finished.”


    Westminster should think of facilitating a NIreland referendum, ASAP, to help resolve one of their own problems.

    Meanwhile polling results in relation to Scotland are still sitting just below the 50% mark, in part no doubt, due to so-called influential pro-Independence supporters running Nicola Sturgeon, the only person capable of making this happen for us, down to the ground. Ask yourself why they would want to do that?

    We’re also having to put up with the claptrap that she is focused on saving England. Give us all a break. 62% of Scots voted to remain in the EU. Maybe she’s been fighting for them, us, and of course England, our next door neighbour, out of Europe poses a real threat for an Independent Scotland. That’s ”US” again. Too many threats to outline on here but they should be pretty obvious to anyone with the ability to see the big picture. She’s done her utmost to keep us all in the EU, against all odds with all of the political twists and turns, but as we can see time is running out now, hence Nicola Sturgeon stating that, ”It’s time for independence, Scotland. #ItsTime.” And when a date is set will we ALL get behind her then? I wont be holding my breath on that one either.

    ‘Exit polls show that 77% of voters are in favour of ‘United Ireland.’

  230. Jack Murphy

    Off Topic.FILM. This went largely unnoticed—it was on TV four days ago. Just over two minutes of your time.

    Tory Grandee Lord Chris Patten says Boris Johnson is “mendacious” and “incompetent”,and a few other things as well !!

  231. Robert Peffers

    @Terry callachan says:25 May, 2019 at 6:15 pm:

    ” … I kind of agree with a lot of people saying that Nicola sturgeons statement about Theresa May’s resignation was over complimentary, sure I understand stateswoman argument and all that but still it is my opinion Nicola could have been less complimentary …

    Have you given this matter any real thought, Terry?

    If you have then you might have to concede a couple of relevant points. First of all, hopefully only temporarily, Scotland is still one of only two partner kingdoms of the United Kingdom.

    Until we get a majority of the people of Scotland to want to end the union and also manage then to end the union we are part of it. No one wants the union ended more than I do but I have no big grudge against the ordinary people of England, Wales and Northern Ireland. In fact I would like to see Ireland reunited and Wales also a free country again.

    Not to mention that I, in no way, want to have a basket case economy as Scotland’s next door neighbour. I detest the current Westminster set-up but would like to think that post independence England and Scotland would be good neighbours to each other but in the meantime I have no personal wish for anyone to suffer – It is independence I want – not revenge. .

  232. Nana


    Like mine I’m sure your hubby can cope with being neglected. I do find leaving a list of chores around keeps them occupied while we get on with the important stuff 🙂

    Thanks for reading the links and letting me know I’m not wasting my time here.

    Have a few more while I’m here

    Piling on the humilation

    Jews in Germany warned of risks of wearing kippah cap in public

    Is BBC news broken? And if so, how do we fix it?

  233. CameronB Brodie

    re. Scotland’s place. Time for some contemporary Transnational Legal Theory?

    The EU’s democratic deficit in a realist key: multilateral governance, popular sovereignty and critical responsiveness


    This paper provides a realist analysis of the European Union’s (EU) legitimacy. We propose a modification of Bernard Williams’ theory of legitimacy, which we term critical responsiveness. For Williams, ‘Basic Legitimation Demand?+?Modernity?=?Liberalism’.

    Drawing on that model, we make three claims. (i) The right side of the equation is insufficiently sensitive to popular sovereignty; (ii) The left side of the equation is best thought of as a ‘legitimation story’: a non-moralised normative account of how to shore up belief in legitimacy while steering clear of both raw domination and ideological distortions. (iii) The EU’s current legitimation story draws on a tradition of popular sovereignty that sits badly with the supranational delegation and pooling of sovereign powers.

    We conclude by suggesting that the EU’s legitimation deficit may be best addressed demoicratically, by recovering the value of popular sovereignty at the expense of a degree of state sovereignty.

    KEYWORDS: Political realism, critical responsiveness, legitimacy, Bernard Williams, European Union, popular sovereignty, democratic deficit

  234. starlaw

    welsh sion 12.51
    Thanks may make future use of this.

  235. yesindyref2

    Probably a good idea if we create our own mini-dossier of the potential PMs, and use all of them when campaigning rather than a possible dead-end single one like BoJo. Along the lines of:

    (fx: shakes head) “At least May was a relative moderate Tory like Cameron [1], what’s next, extreme BoJo, no-deal Raab, weird historian Stewart, aliens ate my railway Hammond, (something) McVey, etc.?”.

    Do ’em all while we’re at it 🙂

    [1] No harm in praising the departed. Think Mark Anthony!

  236. Capella

    @ Nana – your links are certainly not wasted here. I don’t always comment on them but I do always read most of them.

    But the drizzle has stopped and the sun is struggling to shine so I might just get outside for a while.

  237. CameronB Brodie

    FWIW, I don’t think you’re wasting your time.

  238. CameronB Brodie

    Talking of links, I love to gain access to this though I doubt I’ll be able to connect from Britain. It would be great if someone could provide an archived link. 😉

    The Cultural Political Economy of Brexit in the Age of Austerity. A …

    23 Nov 2017 … understanding the construction of the nexus of austerity and Brexit, something …. critical realist perspective (Toynbee, 2008), “media” can be …

  239. Legerwood

    Nana @ 2.49 PM

    This link you gave is a must read particularly the contribution from Nick Lowles at the end. He made the points that were missinfrom the other contributors who tended to pussyfoot around them

    “”Is BBC news broken? And if so, how do we fix it?

  240. Robert Peffers

    @Terry says:25 May, 2019 at 10:48 pm:

    … Why do you construe every comment you don’t approve of as against the Snp?”

    I don’t, so why are you telling lies?

    … I’m a member and activist.” … and?

    ” … The Snp welcomes debate and it’s a broad church.” Yes on both accounts.

    However, as I already asked, why tell lies? I have never said anyone should agree 100% with, “The SNP”, I certainly do not and I certainly have never said anyone else should not disagree with them.

    What I have said is that anyone who disagrees with them should do so in a manner that does not harm the whole independence movement and, as a member you should be aware of what that proper manner is. Take your disagreement to the individual, branch or group that you disagree with. Do not air it on an open forum where it undoubtedly harms the independence movement.

    You say you are a member so you must have a membership card and a rule book. Every branch meeting ends with the chair saying either, “Any other business”, or, “Any other competent business”. At which point you can bring up your point of disagreement. Furthermore, if you can find a seconder, you can propose a mention or an amendment to a motion.

    This must be recorded in the minutes and must be acted upon by debate and perhaps a vote. Otherwise, if your drip is with an elected or official of the party then that person’s contact details are available if required.

    The matter must be dealt with but just what does dripping complaints on a web blog get you?

    Nothing but the satisfaction you have damaged the party and thus independence.

    ” … “Anyway a much better expert than me has pointed out there’s only four weeks in which to act … “

    Didn’t you read Proud Cybernat’s post and my several reposts of it?

    I’ve no reason to doubt that comment and that the matter is in hand at Holyrood. The thing is I already posted that I’m fed up with people attempting to tell me what I have said and even what I think and on both counts getting it wrong.

    You accused me of something I have never done or said. Never have I said people should not disagree with the FM/SG/SNP or any individual in them. I say they, even if they are not a party member, should take their disagreement directly to those they disagree with.

    That way it can, or might, have the effect of resolving the matter while complaining on an open forum that is frequented by unionists and mischief-makers achieves nothing but helping the unionist cause and, what is more, also affects the moral of the independence supporters.

    Just where exactly do you imagine all those stories in the MSM get their fuel to print stories of, “SNP Civil War”?

  241. Nana

    Thanks Capella, I would say enjoying the sunshine is a much better activity. Grab it while you can.

    Have you tried clicking any of the download buttons? I did and got a paper but it won’t let me copy. I’m thinking BDT might be able to get it for you.

    Yes Lowles did and I particularly liked this part of his comment
    “The BBC also needs to do a lot more fact-checking. They should call people out, even after the event”

  242. CameronB Brodie

    re. the BBC’s overall failure to be impartial. Did the BBC provide credibility to the economic extremism and racist xenophobia of the Leave campaign, in the run-up to the Brexit vote? Did the BBC do the same for Better Together?

    The BBC will never support rational self-determination for Scotland, a fundamental human right, as the BBC is legally bound to pimp British nationalism.

    Rethinking balance and impartiality in journalism? How the BBC attempted and failed to change the paradigm


    This article reconsiders the concepts of balance and impartiality in journalism, in the context of a quantitative content analysis of sourcing patterns in BBC news programming on radio, television and online in 2007 and 2012. Impartiality is the cornerstone of principles of public service broadcasting at the BBC and other broadcasters modelled on it. However, the article suggests that in the case of the BBC, it is principally put into practice through juxtaposing the positions of the two main political parties – Conservative and Labour.

    On this basis, the article develops the idea of the ‘paradigm of impartiality-as-balance.’ This paradigm prevails despite the news organisation’s commitment to representing a broader range of opinion. The paradigm of impartiality-as-balance means that only a narrow range of views and voices are heard on the most contentious and important issues. Further, it results in reporting that focuses on party-political conflict, to the detriment of a journalism which provides much-needed context.

    Keywords BBC, European Union, immigration, impartiality, journalism practice, objectivity, public service broadcasting, religion

  243. Petra

    @ Nana says at 2:49 pm … ”Petra – Like mine I’m sure your hubby can cope with being neglected. I do find leaving a list of chores around keeps them occupied while we get on with the important stuff ? Thanks for reading the links and letting me know I’m not wasting my time here. Have a few more while I’m here.”

    He’s well used to it now Nana, being neglected, and has accepted that I’m dealing with the ”important stuff”, lol.

    Nana I can see that you put a lot of time and effort into getting your extremely, informative links onto this site and I’m sure that everyone (Independence supporters) really appreciates them. I, for one, read EVERY article (sometimes skim reading) and always come across new information that is used to good effect in the ”real world”. If I don’t comment on any one in particular it’s because I’m short of time.

    I’ve just read through the last four articles (all interesting) posted and like Legerwood see the BBC link as ”a must read.”

    ”Is BBC news broken? And if so, how do we fix it?”


    Also reposting Phronesis recent link. WELL worth a read too, imo.

  244. Nana

    Declaration times for the #EuropeanElections2019

    see here

  245. CameronB Brodie

    Download buttons? Remember, I’m partly diddy. Well mostly. I’m not able to connect to the page so it would appear as if I’m right to be a bit paranoid. Or my internet is broken. Or I’ve still not learn to use it properly, which is highly probable.

    ‘Help, help. I’m being oppressed….’ 🙂

  246. Nana

    Follow up to my last comment

    Councils will be announcing Scottish results from 10pm tonight. Counting starts at 6pm ish. Just we cannot confirm MEP’s who have won here due to Western Isles and the Sabbath… so Monday but we’ll know who unless the result is REALLY tight. WI account for 0.5% of the vote..

  247. Al-Stuart


    Thanks for that Socrates MacSporran.

    You are spot on about Boris being disliked. I think it is just the parliamentary Tories that loathe him and as you say, it will be an “Anyone But Boris” movement that emerges. Especially as rank and file Tory voters seem to like him. The Tory MPs would rather have a thistle enema than let BoJo take their crown.

    If Boris does make make it to the final two, then the odds are likely Boris Longshanks will be the new Hammer of the Scots.

    Socrates you may be onto something though, as the bookies are marking Boris down in their tables. Check out the red and blue shading indicating shortening and lengthening odds…

    A feel a boak coming on as Michael creepy Gove’s odds are improving ?

  248. North chiel

    Very perceptive post from “ yesindyref2 @ 0105 pm.

  249. CameronB Brodie

    Not a complete diddy though, I just needed to figure out there’s more than one way to skin a cat and that a google account might be handy to have, after all. 😉

    The Cultural Political Economy of Brexit in the Age of Austerity.
    A Corpus-Assisted Critical Realist Multimedia Discourse


    Although the form of linguistic articulations in both mass and social media is central to understanding the construction of the nexus of austerity and Brexit, something else must be brought into the picture to understand their force. From the perspective of Cultural Political Economy this something else has to be located in material social structures and is essential to provide methods that can capture the interplay of the form of and the force behind multimedia discourses.

    The paper at hand presents a corpus-assisted critical realist multimedia discourse analysis that is able to do so. This triangulation is made possible by the philosophical “underlabourer” of critical realism that allows for a combination of quantitative and qualitative methods on the basis of a post-positivist methodology that highlights that methods do neither produce unproblematic facts nor mere fictions, but something in between that can be called “ficts”.

    When they are understood as producer of ficts, corpus linguistic tools like keyword analyses are well-suited to deal with a large amount of data and are, therefore, a powerful tool in a time where the quantity of information steadily increases, especially in social media. As these quantitative regularities do not speak for themselves, they have to be interpreted qualitatively with the help of a critical realist discourse analysis that is able to “dig deeper” by connecting them with material social structures and, therefore, to explain the forces behind the linguistic surface and to criticize these in order to enhance human emancipation.

    The general features of this methodological triangulation will be exemplified by offering an explanatory critique of the discursive construction of “Brexit” in the age of austerity found in 193 texts of two traditional newspapers (The Guardian, The Daily Telegraph) that contain the search terms “Brexit” and “austerity” and in 30,000 Twitter messages containing the hashtag “#Brexit” contain the string “austerity”, posted between 06.05.2016 and 05.07.2016.

    This paper will first explain the basic (meta-)theoretical assumptions of Critical Realism and Cultural Political Economy (section 1). Building on these foundations, the basic tenets and pitfalls of the methodological triangulation will be discussed (section 2) before it will be used within a “plausibility probe” of the cultural political economy of austerity and Brexit.

    It will show that neoliberal, Keynesian, nationalist and non-ideological critical imaginaries can be found within the media, and that the latter face a structural disadvantage because of the material and institutional dominance of the finance-dominated accumulation within the United Kingdom (section 3). Corresponding thoughts about the prospects about the fulfilment of a radical change in Britain in the direction of human emancipation conclude this paper (section 4).

  250. North chiel

    How come “ Rory the Tory” has appeared on the scene as a “ contender” apparently “ from nowhere” with full access of course to “ broadcast” his credentials into our living rooms ( no doubt to “ allow” the public to “ get used” to his “ reasonable ? tones?” and “ normalise his persona “ ) . Any how whether he wins or not is immaterial as no doubt he is being lined up for a “ top” cabinet job where his M16 credentials will be very handy if the “ state of emergency “ is declared after a “ no deal” ? No doubt he will have close links to “ colleagues” currently “ employed” in the “ Scottish” office. Look out down the line for a new major media campaign of “ dirty tricks” / smears against our FM in particular and the Independence movement in general as politics intensify over Brexit/Independence.

  251. Dave McEwan Hill

    Socrates MacSporranat 12.30

    Exasctly. And I don’t think Boris will get it. Whoever beats Boris to it will be saluted and media praised as somebody that saved us from Boris.

    Gove anybody?

  252. North chiel

    Make no mistake , the Westminster establishment will be not only focusing on “ Brexit” post the latest “ Tory coup” . The “ precious precious union “ will be equally occupying the agenda going forward ( although this will never be mentioned by the state propaganda outlets). All options will be analysed as regards thwarting Scotland from becoming independent and the Westminster establishment will have this uppermost in mind . I strongly suspect the continual delays and prevarication over Brexit is directly linked to the preservation of the U.K.

  253. CameronB Brodie

    re. the power of the media to shape public discourse (see indyref1 and “Project Fear”).

    1. Critical Realism and the cultural political economy of austerity and Brexit

    The substantial arguments of Cultural Political Economy (CPE) are based on the metatheoretical foundation of Critical Realism. Critical Realism in general and CPE in particular make it possible to navigate between the Scylla of textualism and the Charybdis of economic determinism (Sum/Jessop, 2013:147-95).

    The “holy trinity” (Bhaskar, 2002:12) of Critical Realism is characterized by “ontological realism (that there is a reality independent of the mind(s) that would wish to come to know it); epistemological relativism (that all beliefs are
    socially produced); and judgemental rationalism (that despite epistemological relativism, it is still possible, in principle, to choose between competing theories).” (Wight, 2006:26)

    ….CPE uses this foundation to argue that the levels of semiosis, that is intersubjective meaning-giving in the form of imaginaries, and the extra-semiotic features of reality stand in a dialectic relationship. “Imaginaries are semiotic systems that frame individual subjects’ lived experience of an inordinately complex world and/or inform collective calculation about that world.” (Sum/Jessop, 2013:165). They help people to go on in a complex word.

    Imaginaries can be distinguished on the basis of their normative content. In respect to the recent financial and economic crisis, Fairclough and Fairclough (Fairclough/Fairclough, 2012:7, italics in original) detect “[a] primary division in arguments […] between those which proceed from nonsystemic accounts of the crisis to get back to ‘normal’, the ‘status quo ante’ or the economic situation which prevailed before the crisis, and those which proceed from systemic accounts of the crisis“. Non-systemic accounts just recognised a crisis in the capitalist formation, whereas systemic interpretations saw a crisis of capitalism. The latter accounts criticize capitalism in favour of human emancipation, whereas the former do not.3

    It is important to note that, in contrast to a radical social constructivist understanding of semiosis, imaginaries should not be equated with ideologies (Sum/Jessop, 2013:170-72). But insofar as “the function of an ideology in any given society is to cover up the exploitation that prevails in it” (Collier, 2007:113), imaginaries are ideological when they contribute to the (re-)production of exploitive “power over” relations.4 In contrast to systemic accounts, non-systemic imaginaries are, therefore, ideological with regard to economic relations.

    In respect to the distribution of certain imaginaries media function as “nodal actors”, that “can make a difference thanks to their different capacities to persuade, read particular conjunctures, displace opponents, and rearticulate discourses and imaginaries in timely fashion.” (Sum/Jessop, 2013:166) They serve as “crucial intermediaries in mobilizing elite and/or popular support behind competing imaginaries.” (Sum/Jessop, 2013:167).

    From a critical realist perspective (Toynbee, 2008), “media” can be understood as “systems of human relations among social positions” (Porpora, 1989:198), used for communicative purposes. Media differ in respect of the shape of these structures (Bateman, 2016:56ff.). Whereas traditional mass media like printed newspapers are a “one-to-many broadcasting mechanism” […,] social media delivers content via a network of participants where the content can be published by anyone, but still distributed across potentially large-scale audiences.” (Page et al., 2014:5)

    Although printed media still play an important role in the distribution of certain imaginaries and the corresponding “production of consent” (Hall, 1982:81-84) the power held by newspaper editors has been challenged due to increased participation in social media (Baker et al., 2013:3), a participation that is, of course, itself marked by power structures and inequalities (Robinson et al., 2015).

  254. Nana

    A First Secretary of State for the Union with real money and real power. Is Rory talking about overturning the current Devolution settlement if he gets to No. 10?
    Sky news today

    I agree with this re Rory the Tory

    and it’s good to be reminded

  255. F I MacIllFhinnein

    I’ve just watched that whole video, and I feel sick and anxious: Herr Dr Goebbels is alive again. The naive disaster capitalists think they can control this, just as their forerunners in the Germany of the 1930s thought they could control it.

  256. yesindyref2

    It was Rev retweeting him got my attention, now in the space of less than 24 hours he’s all over the place. Possibly a bit like John Major after Thatcher. The “moderate” replacement for May compared to Boris. Yeah, right!

  257. Petra

    @ Nana … ”What an outrage for Rory Stewart to suggest the backstop could go. Unless he’s committing to permanent single market and customs union in Northern Ireland then that’s Irish peace he’s putting on the line. The future of Stewart’s ministerial career seems less of a priority.”

    I reckon that he’s the one to be watched Nana, with all the ”bigging up” that’s going on in the media right now. Much more intelligent than May, and most other Tories in fact, and twice as cruel, callous and dangerous. Another ”psychological” case akin to G W Bush screwed up by, and spending a lifetime trying to impress / please, daddy, even although he’s dead. He’s also made it his ”mission” to keep the Union intact. Along with Gove he presents a clear and present danger for us, imo.

  258. CameronB Brodie

    re. Roderick James Nugent “Rory” Stewart OBE MP FRSL FRSGS. He’s a Scot so is precluded from high office through English Votes for English Laws. No?

    Women, equality and the UK’s EU referendum: locating the gender politics of Brexit in relation to the neoliberalising state

  259. Cubby

    CameronB Brodie@7.23pm

    You correctly answered it yourself Cameron – no he is not excluded. It’s the constituency that the MP represents that counts.

  260. CameronB Brodie

    Ah, thanks.

  261. Brian Doonthetoon

    Hi Nana at 6:29 pm.

    RE: Rory Stewart.
    You typed,
    “and it’s good to be reminded

    In that short clip, he betrays his Anglo-centric psyche, by uttering,
    “I am the candidate in this race, who represents the most northern constituency.”

    With that throwaway comment, he dismisses every constituency in Scotland as irrelevant. And totally ignores the member for Orkney and Shetland, which is a lot further north than Northumbria.

    His claim that “I am half Scottish, half English” is rendered moot, due to his dismissal of the existence of Scottish constituencies.

  262. Legerwood

    Nana @ 4.46pm

    “””Yes Lowles did and I particularly liked this part of his comment
    “The BBC also needs to do a lot more fact-checking. They should call people out, even after the event”

    I have the feeling that they do their ‘homework’ and glean their ‘information’ from the newspapers!! They certainly do not have the requisite depth of knowledge about the person they are interviewing or the issues they are interviewing them about hence they miss opportunities to pull them up when they tell porkies. Any Ruth Davidson interview would give lots of examples of this.

    I think he also suggested that journalists/interviewers need better training which, of course, would mean fewer free rides for politicians and ‘experts’.

  263. yesindyref2

    Well spotted.

    His dossier is building up nicely, bring him on!

  264. CameronB Brodie

    Hang on a minute.

    “I am the candidate in this race, who represents the most northern constituency.”

    I read that as, he is representing the most northern constituencies of all constituencies represented by candidates in the race. Not the most northerly constituency in Britain. Remember to re-read anything he says, he’s a trained slippery fucker interface between state and state security apparatus.

  265. yesindyref2

    Ah, right, yes, shame, oh well.

    No MP from Scotland could enter the leadership race of course, as they couldn’t become PM, as Scotland is discriminated against in UK “precious union” politics by EVEL.

  266. Nana


    Rory the Tory is indeed “all over the place”

    @BDDT he does dismiss every constituency in Scotland as irrelevant but as we know to these sorts we the people of Scotland are totally irrevelant.

    Of course our resources are not.

  267. Richard Hunter

    As usual, Scotland is sitting on it’s hands and let events elsewhere determine it’s future. And the mainstream Unionist establishment is repeating it’s mantra that change is bad and they can somehow prevent it ever happening. Meanwhile the SNP seems also to just be waiting for things to happen and for a referendum to fall into its lap instead of going out and makindg it happen. Profoundly depressing.

  268. CameronB Brodie

    re. dealing with Roderick James Nugent “Rory” Stewart OBE MP FRSL FRSGS.

    Discourse Analysis vs. Close Reading


    Textual analysis is fundamental to many kinds of research, from psychology to literature, philosophy to information science. Not surprisingly, different strategies have emerged from within the various disciplines that do textual analysis, and naturally these strategies reflect the epistemologies of the disciplines from which they emerge. And as long as one stays insular to one’s own discipline, there isn’t a problem.

    But as soon as a field claims the mantel of “interdisciplinarity,” it faces a dilemma: to protect and preserve what is known to work, or to open itself out to alternative ways of knowing. Now, both of these impulses are in themselves legitimate in themselves, but as they enter everyday life (e.g., the writing, reviewing, and editing of papers), they sometimes appear in clumsy ways. Some of these clumsy ways are as follows:

    Epistemological bigotry: This happens when someone asserts (often without meaning to) that she or he knows the right way and everything else is “fluff” or wrongheaded. In HCI, scientism is often confused for science, to the detriment of both HCI and science.

    Piecemealism: This happens when someone injects a small piece from one tradition uncritically into another, without recognizing that a piece might not represent the whole from which it is drawn, nor recognizing that that piece might be at intellectual odds with the rest. In HCI, I see this with “critical” approaches to HCI where a single concept is ripped from a complex tradition, such as poststructuralism, and applied to traditional design approaches to, say, mobile phones or Web applications.

    Equivocation: This happens when two or more groups of people use the same word in completely different ways, without seeming to be aware that their use is not “natural” or universal. In HCI, “aesthetics” seems to be a word that has almost no relationship to the 2,500 year old tradition of aesthetic theory, as I’ve ranted on before.

    All of these involve a combination of dogmatism and muddled thinking. While scientism–by which I refer to as a fetish for scientific ways of knowing, placing it above other forms of intellectualism–is dogmatic and often intellectually muddled, I would stress that neither dogmatism nor muddled thinking is scientific. Scientism so-defined is bad science.

    In this post, I will talk about discourse analysis versus close reading. Both are strategies of textual analysis. Both have disciplinary rigor. Both have legitimate benefits. And yet often when I do close reading, I am attacked on the grounds that I am not being “systematic,” not “coding,” and/or just putting forward my “opinion.” And I want to just scream out: I’ve read Virgil in Latin, Proust in French, Dante in medieval Italian, Joyce in whatever language he wrote in: I don’t need you to tell me how to read!

    But that is self-expression. It doesn’t solve the broader problem, which is that the rigor I bring to text analysis seems to be literally invisible to these reviewers. Instead, 12 years (!) and a doctorate in a Ph.D. program in Comparative Literature comes off as me just putting forward my “opinion.” I need to address this.

  269. Nana


    another one for the dossier?

    Bizarre moment as Govt minister @RoryStewartUK invents #Brexit stat in interview with @EmmaBarnett.

  270. Petra

    Rory … Lost the plot …. Stewart.

  271. CameronB Brodie

    re. Roy the Tory and his irrational discourse. I can’t find an open access text but the clink-though links to this abstract might stimulate minds.

    @Roderick James Nugent “Rory” Stewart OBE MP FRSL FRSGS
    You are under critical examination from now on, to make sure you are not attempting to radicalise minds. That is your objective, is it not? Or do you plan on stopping the full-English Brexit, which is pretty fecking radical, frankly.

    (De-)Rationalizing the irrational: Discourse as culture/ideology


    This paper takes as its starting point the observation of quasi-religious, ‘cultural’ characteristics in the dominant discourse of Western liberal democracy, and of ‘ideological’ characteristics in the discourse of Islamism – noting that both discourses rely, to some extent, upon the notion of rationality.

    Having provided working definitions of rationality, ideology, and culture, it goes on to argue that culture and ideology may be viewed as discursive macro-strategies which are related to the degree of power enjoyed by a given social system at particular historical moments in time: the former being associated with the consolidation of established power and the latter with a bid to acquire power.

    It suggests that the general function of cultural and ideological strategies is to mask the underlying irrationalities of free-market democracy and Islamism, respectively, and concludes by considering some of the implications of this view in the context of globalization and the ‘war on terror’.

    Keywords: rationality, culture, ideology, Islam/Islamism, capitalism/free-market democracy, meme-complex, discursive spin

  272. yesindyref2

    Yes, Rory “Think of a number, any number” Stewart. He really has lost the plot as Petra says.

  273. Al-Stuart

    Dave McEwan Hill,

    I agree with you. But am distressed to think the utterly odious Michael Gove may end up PM. Embarrassed that Gove was born in Scotland. Though not surprised he had the career of journalist (started at Press and Journal of all places).

    The bookmakers are demoting Boris as their favourite for PM. The only one going, or should I say, slithering up the rankings is Michael Gove…

    Dave you may well have called this correctly.

    I think, indeed hope that SNP HQ have focus-gouped + researched + gamed the political science out of this to ensure the incredibly difficult timing of IndyRef2 is spot on for success.

    About 2 minutes ago it LOOKS like SNP EU 2019 vote is up to 38% which means SNP will have THREE MEPs.

    Wee Dick at Labour has managed to obliterate SLAB to 9% and zero MEP in Scotland.

    Interesting times.

    Cheers, Al.

  274. Al-Stuart

    Oh FFS,

    Farage just got elected MEP and threw down the Westminster gauntlet.

    After tonight, Farage may well be in the running as either PM or deputy PM of the UK.

  275. Jedburgh

    thought the Sky report was excellent – much better than anything the BBBc has aired recently.

  276. Nigel

    Every SNP activist needs to watch that and learn from it. SNP and YES needs to learn the same techniques as NF has from the US. They work. A lot of lessons there. On that basis, the SNP is looking complacent.

    Look at the publicity and campaigning material being given away for example. The messages…the attitude. The era of ‘gentleman’ political campaigning is definitely over. If we (the SNP) are to keep those new votes gained from last nights results, something has to change in the party. The Brexit party will soon make more inroads into Scottish politics if we ignore or dismiss it.

  277. Rev. Stuart Campbell

    “But how would Johnson or any other Brexiter Tory PM get No Deal through the Westminster Parliament as it is now? Surely that’s impossible?”

    Hngh. You don’t NEED to get no-deal through Parliament. No-deal happens automatically by default unless something else stops it.

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