The end of sanity
Okay, so 2017 is turning out less dull than we expected.
Because the Prime Minister of the UK has lost her mind.
Let’s just go over the basics.
– Firstly, the PM can’t actually announce a general election will be held on June 8th. To get around the restrictions of the Fixed Term Parliaments Act (which was created in 2011 by her own party specifically to stop this exact thing happening) she needs to get a two-thirds majority in Parliament, which she probably will but can’t yet count on. Jeremy Corbyn could order Labour to block it, just for the laughs.
(The BBC’s Norman Smith noted that if he did, Labour would seem to be running away from the fight and Corbyn would be “crucified in the media”. Gosh, whatever would that be like, eh? Also, how would it be any more ridiculous than May doing the thing she’s repeatedly promised she wouldn’t do?)
– Secondly, assuming it goes ahead, May has nothing to gain and everything to lose. Under the UK’s electoral system, there are very few likely Tory gains from Labour or the SNP, and the Lib Dems have almost no seats left for the Tories (or anyone else) to take. Labour are already close to rock bottom under FPTP – what seats they still hold are mostly very safe ones.
But Brexit has revived Tim Farron’s party in byelections, and there are around 50 seats which were Lib Dem until 2015 and could very conceivably switch back in an election that’s going to be – quite expressly – a proxy second EU referendum. If as few as a quarter of them go, May loses her majority.
– Every argument that May used against a second Scottish independence referendum has just turned to ashes. There is no majority in the UK for an election. Less than a third of voters want it. Now is not the time.
If the SNP take the vast majority of seats in Scotland again in these circumstances (and they surely would – there are very few Scottish seats where the Tories are even in second place, and Scotland voted Remain by a big margin), that’s an overwhelming mandate for a second indyref, if not a flat-out declaration of independence.
(For the avoidance of doubt, our position on UDI has not changed.)
– May’s government has had no trouble passing significant votes before now, and certainly not in terms of Brexit – the Article 50 bill was passed by a huge majority in the Commons (498 to 114). They already have a clear political mandate for it. So they’ll have risked their majority for nothing, at a time when they were just about to rejig electoral boundaries to give themselves a massive extra advantage in the future.
– Even if, as most people seem to think (we’re not so sure), the Tories win a massive landslide leading to Jeremy Corbyn’s resignation, Labour can only be strengthened by that: the Tories, you’d think, want Corbyn to stay in charge for as long as possible.
– And what on Earth happens if the Tories DO lose their majority (or even just see it reduced)? They will no longer have a mandate for Brexit, yet have already invoked Article 50. Nobody will know what the hell is going on.
The newly-elected PM would presumably have to resign and be replaced by someone who (a) nobody voted for as PM, and (b) might well have a totally different view on Brexit. “Omnishambles” doesn’t begin to scratch the surface of it.
We’ll update this article with the next 400 most ridiculous things we can think of about the situation as they come to us. Right now, frankly, we’re a bit overwhelmed at the absolutely galactic scale of the stupidity of it.
Cracked crystal balls being consulted with full confidence. Cocksure clairvoyants ignoring past incompetence. Wisdom is a rare resource these days, I’ve been told.
A ready-made urgency masked as spontaneity, a shock to learn your belief is not actual reality. THIS is your reality. This is your absurdity.
It has always been this way.
One Scotland.
Corbyn and Labour backing the dissolution is just plain crazy in my thinking. I feel that there will be prosecutions over the election fraud, and then bang goes their majority.
The devil in me says they should refuse to back it, stand back and watch the Tory party tear itself apart like the pack of wild animals they are.
Unfortunately Paisley jnr. Of the DUP stood up in Westminster today pledging hus support to the Tories as always to the aim of a strong UK. So even if they lose seats then there may be enough support from the DUP to keep them in power.
I get the impression that Teresa May saw what Erdogan did in Turkey and thought I could that in UK; leader for life.
Re labour supporting election; Turkeys and Xmas spring to mind.
fuckin A
maybe we can now deliver stephen gethins 1st leaflet along with the last council election leaflet 🙁
schrodingers on 18 April, 2017 at 7:27 pm:
Apologies for the slow delayed response, i’m flirting between WOS and catching up with some numismatic chores.
SC, i’m not disputing your thought processes but that’s *exactly* what it is, your thoughts – you stated it as a point of fact, at least that’s how it came across.
You base your thoughts on previous results which occurred through an entirely different political landscape. You’ve made no allowances for the monumental changes in political circumstances such as Scotland voting 62% remain since that time, not to mention the public now being more aware of how they were sold a dud at our referendum.
There is no way of anyone knowing how it would transpire if it came down to a straight choice between a Unionist crew view or an Indy vote and prosper. My belief is we’d win-out comfortably. I believe we have nothing to fear from a straight battle, free of all the deliberately divisive and seemingly multiple choice party involvement.
@Thepnr 8:11 pm :
“She obviously has a plan and has said she will outline that soon, we’ll just need to wait and find out what that plan is.”
She better come out with what that plan is within the next week at most.
I don’t believe the SNP actually does have a plan for this scenario – if I’m wrong we’ll hear about it before Friday.
That plan better involve indy based on the GE vote or its game over for anything inside the next 4-5 years.
44 days and counting & unless the English vote the tories out we have zip-fuck chance of indyref2.
I really don’t have any confidence in the SNP to react to this sanp GE – I bet there’s not even a backup plan but if the plan is vote for us for another glorious indyref mandate then its game over guys.
We have mandates from all electoral systems – or will in May – so time to put the ball in the net. FPTP is the most favourable system to do this & they called the election so enough is enough.
Majority of MPs standing on an explicit manifesto of independence elected along with Holyrood and locals is cast iron guarantee of recognition internationally.
WTF are some of you on about? You get a mandate under 3 electoral systems – all designed to stop you doing this & some of you are still banging on about 50% +1 under a dodgy postal voting system?
We’re fucked if that’s your attitudes.
@Vestas says: 18 April, 2017 at 7:13 pm
” … It has to stop some time & if history teaches us anything, law as interpreted in an international court rarely if ever directly results in independence.”
It obviously depends upon the case presented. However, let me show you the other side of the coin.
How long and to what cost in human life did it take, for example, India to gain independence?
Now consider the case of Palestine if you will:-
The Palestine Liberation Organization (PLO) is an organization founded in 1964 with the purpose of the “liberation of Palestine” through armed struggle, with much of its violence aimed at Israeli civilians.
It is recognized as the “sole legitimate representative of the Palestinian people” by over 100 states with which it holds diplomatic relations, and has enjoyed observer status at the United Nations since 1974.
The PLO was considered by the United States and Israel to be a terrorist organization until the Madrid Conference in 1991. In 1993, the PLO recognized Israel’s right to exist in peace, accepted UN Security Council resolutions 242 and 338, and rejected “violence and terrorism”; in response, Israel officially recognized the PLO as the representative of the Palestinian people.
Such states can claim to be independent but must rely upon the acceptance of the rest of the World to recognise their right to exist as an independent nation. Now tell me. If the de facto parliament of England that remains after the Kingdom of Scotland ends the United Kingdom yet the Kingdom of England continues to claim to still be the rUK and plays upon its, “Special Relationship”, with the USA, (just as Israel does with the USA), do you think Scotland will fair better than the state of Palestine today?
To be recognised as a free independent nation requires you be recognised by other states. Now consider the case of East Germany after the wall came down. It did not require too much trouble for them to be integrated as part of Germany and made citizens of the EU.
The point is that Scots have been founder citizens of the EU since the EU first began and the EU has no rules, laws or other legal mechanisms that can expel a member or a citizen unless by a formal request to do so, (As Ms May found out the hard way).
If Scotland, obviously by the very title United Kingdom, identifiable as an equally sovereign partner in the United Kingdom and thus the UK is not a single member country but is a bipartite United Kingdom that will have decided to disunite. The EU would have to legislate, and all remaining member states agree, to change EU rules to expel Scotland and any one member state could veto the required rule change. So tell me just how could the EU expel Scotland without a rule change?
So there you go – do we declare UDI and have the USA and rUK not recognize us as independent and end up like Palestine/
Or do we do things legally and peacefully and use the EU laws, or rather the lack of them, to remain in the EU as the legacy member state in place of the EU while the Kingdom of England swans off into the Sunset with their special friend the USA?
Could a general election at the beginning of June also be considered the end of May?
We live in interesting times……..and how I love it.
Should the Tories manage to secure a majority down south then the Scottish Parliament could be at risk. May wouldn’t think twice about wanting to quash what she sees as dissent in Scotland. Our parliament is on the line as is another indyref. Make no doubt about it.
If there is a rise in the LibDem vote then they could regain the third party place in Westminster, ousting the SNP, and slashing the amount of money the SNP receives in Short money.
A great deal is riding on the outcome. All our futures for one thing.
One Scotland.
That’s a 1st for me.
Love Scotland.
X.
fair point Bob Mack
I can only summise that he sees the chance to deselect the blairites and ensure going forward the plp speaks with a united voice.
i dont know much about the safe labour seats in england but the rev seems to think that the seats labour have at the moment are pretty safe and even the drop in support in the polls across the uk is unlikely to see labour lose many seats
corbyn may just see this as an opportunity, uk wide polls dont really say very much about how many seats any party will win in a fptp election
The Tories only make extremely carefully calculated decisions.
Saint Theresa has outsmarted Nicola Sturgeon.
I had long called for a strike while the iron was hot, and call a referendum immediately after the Brexit result.
The unionists were in complete disray and leaderless and the EU’s eyes were on us.
Instead Nicola wasted months flogging a dead horse – a separate deal for Scotland which was never going to happen.
Now the unionists have re-grouped and are determined to follow their rules and timetable.
Despite everything, we hardly have 50% support for Yes.
Things are nowhere near as easy as some posters seem to believe.
The SNP should now be extremely careful what they promise.
Going for independence with an SNP majority is extremely risky.
Do not underestimate the British establishment.
The SNP should not make any announcements until after the council elections.
As I had posted a few days ago about the council elections:
“I don’t know how statistics are compiled, but an SNP total vote of more than 50% is the best response to the unionists.”
@Titler
Or should we call you Severin or just mind your own country’s business Dick
We’re still in the same country for now.
Largely because of this exact kind of stupidity that assumes everyone south of the border is all the same, and only those who are True Scotsmen know the truth… which lost you the last Referendum.
Let’s hope you learn faster this time.
It’s funny how all the UDI stuff always arises whenever there’s ‘events’.
Keep it simple…we’re on our way, 300 hundred odd years then what, just blow it wi UDI during the only time period in those 300 odd years when we’ve ever been this close?
As they say doon sooth…yer ‘aven a larf’
It’s more than a feeling…
Vote Yes tae keep yer sanity!
It’s awe aroon ye, cheers tae ye foonurt.
Set phasers to FREEDOM.
Just in – was listening to new improved Donaldas NBC radio news all day.
Oh lets go a hear the publics view in Orkney (No vote central – even with a liar Lib MP, on and now lets check out
Aberdeen for balance????
You guessed it; Im fed up votin’ / no more votin / no more indyrefs yadda yadda yadda. So predictable.
Nae change under Donalda then!
@Vestas
That plan better involve indy based on the GE vote or its game over for anything inside the next 4-5 years.
44 days and counting & unless the English vote the tories out we have zip-fuck chance of indyref2.
LOL These are pretty bold statements Vestas, mind if I ask what you base them on other than your hunch?
At least I quantify any predictions of mine with an “it seems like” or an “I believe”.
Game over and zip-fuck are simply your opinion and carry no more weight because you state them boldly than anyone else with a view.
The timing of GE 17 may have another effect in that it will minimise the time available for any Yoon spin arising from the results of tactical voting in the council elections if the SNP retains a substantial majority of seats, or better still 56+.
When oh bloody when are the SNP going to nail this once in a f/kn lifetime pish, it’s easy ,not one of the promises given was delivered so deal null and void, contract not fulfilled its that simple .
The opportunity is there when on live TV , nail it to the f/kn floor ,anyone else feel like chucking something at the TV and slapping some sense into some SNP MPs , get a bloody grip go for the interviewer make it personal, call out the BBC .
Tommy Sheppard had a golden opportunity on The BBC national news and missed it in my opinion . His interview started with, well the only way for your Party is down then ? Chuckle Chuckle, What a way to begin an interview he should have totally flattered the BBC mouthpiece for asking a stupid question like that, this was followed by the usual nodding heads saying oh yes it will be difficult to follow their last success, have the BBC morphed into the Tory party ? Bloody disgusting.
Game on. GE 2017 SNP manifesto should explicitly state that a majority of SNP MP’s elected will be a mandate to declare independence. Now is the time.
stoker
i have been canvassing and leafleting my area for the council elections in the last month so when i say i dont think the snp support in this area has risen from the 41% it had in 2015, so while that is my opinion, it isnt baseless
fact, if the tories and labour dont stand candidates in this constituency, there is a very high probability the libdems will win.
i just hope the unionists can agree such a plan. either way, that is their bag and nothing we can do about it.
i believe our best bet is to target the 2 unionist seats on the mainland anbd the 10 weakest snp mps seats to ensure we dont drop from 56 mps we have.
argh, i just hope the unionists CANT agree such a plan.
As I understand it the rules are that if a candidate, successful or not, is found personally culpable of electoral fraud not only might the election have to be rerun but they will be bared from standing for election.
Which kind of begs the question as to whether being found guilty for the offence in a previous election would mean you got kicked out even though the verdict wasn’t given before that subsequent election.
Obviously questions should asked be asked about candidates who failed to get elected despite cheating.
@ Rogue Coder 7.59 Ok U kin stoap twistin ma airm ah’ve donated. Cmon People we need to get a lot of material out on the streets.
Robert Graham says:
IndyRef1 was most certainly a once in a lifetime event.
When will we ever have another chance to choose between independence versus many more powers to Holyrood guaranteed with a UK certain to stay the EU?
That will never ever happen again in a dozen lifetimes! 🙂
Vestas, do you think the die-in-the-wool SNP supporters here btl aren’t going to do the only thing most of them can – vote? Would it please you if we all got a bit panicky with our rhetoric?
If the SNP lose so much as a single seat (or even a single vote) zoomer yooners will say it “proves” Scotland doesn’t want Indyref2
Titled could ye just gie it a rest wi yer barely disguised stereotypifying of the Scots please?
By all means make your point but the snide little digs show you up as the one who holds views that are fairly typical of an ‘ignorant English person’s view of the Scots’? Whilst projecting what you surely deny to yourself onto those on these threads, whatever ‘value’ you may think you are bringing to the debate is utterly undermined by this approach.
NOW seems like a very good time to revisit this LOLOL
If you don’t watch it then burn in hell!!
link to youtube.com
I saw that K1… I just sat shaking my head. The BBC had a woman down in England basically yabbing on about how there’s too much politics and she had’ had enough.
I don’t doubt there are a few with that opinion, but I also know there are masses in Scotland like myself, who cannot wait to give Davidson and Mayhems’ Tory’s a good hiding… as well as seeing Labour annihilated. Fun ahead. 🙂
I agree wholeheartedly with the posters who advocate the SNP SG MUST include a declaration in their manifesto that if the SOVEREIGN SCOTTISH ELECTORATE vote for the SNP as the new Scottish government , then that government will inform wastemonster that they are withdrawing from the treaty of union and consequently SCOTLAND has become once more an independent country.
As breeks and jack collatin are constantly posting the Scottish people’s sovereignty MUST be affirmed
To do otherwise plays into the hands of ALL unionist parties , they will obfuscate , ignore (as they do now ) and wrap us in unending turmoil whilst STILL stealing our resources . MAKE no mistake the TOLIES are shit scared that Scotland goes independent they will resort to anything to maintain the union . If the SNP fail to include these conditions , the first thing ANY wastemonster government will do is to ensure that Hollyrood is muzzled as is evidenced by the Sewell convention ,or they will simply destroy Hollyrood.
If the SNP included these conditions in their manifesto and lost the election ( god forbid )are we going to be any worse off , we are currently being treated like shite , time to get the gloves off , get off our knees and tell these fcukers we are sick of playing your games
If we win job done we are independent and let the fcukers take us to court
Time to grow a big pair GO FOR IT AND DEIL TAK ALL
RogueCoder wrote on 18 April, 2017 at 7:59 pm
“It’s all kicking off now. Time to move into high gear
Shameless plug for the ayeMail #ScotRef fundraiser; 150 more Indy Kits for Yes groups. We really need your help!”
link to indiegogo.com
Away, man! Nothing shameful about it, we’ll all need kitted out for the forthcoming independence battles. Lets get tooled up, flags and merchandise our weapons of choice. 😀
A classic Thepnr 🙂
PNR
i think that before nicola held indyref2 without a section 30 she would have dissolved holyrood first hand rerun the holyrood election in an attempt to prove to westminster beyond any doubt that she had a mandate.
treeza calling the ge has just brought forward this issue but the goal will be the same
By-the-by, is this a new WOS record? Over 530 comments already and the vast majority sticking to the main subject matter. Great stuff!
It has been quite the day.
In one respect, Labour imo have been too quick to agree to an election.
Telling the tories they have made their electoral fraud bed (real reason for election) and can lay in it a bit longer would have been a smarter move.
On the other, labour need to make VERY clear what their position on a loose power share arrangement with the SNP is.
That answer will confirm if labour WANT power or are just going along with an election to help out their tory chums yet again.
By ‘tory chums’, i mean helping theresa and co try keep Scotland down, something they have been actively doing since pre indyref.
Avoiding the loss of 2015 tory seats under question from Police Electoral Investigations and prosecutions could have been a compelling impetus for this insanity. (good for Scots bad for torys)
In Nicola I trust.
@Vestas
Away and have a lie down, your blood pressure must be off the charts. You sound a bit nuts tbh.
Breaking
Word on Huffpo is sitting Labour MPs will be automatically put back up. There was some talk of what Corbyn wanted – the local branch having to do the selection – but apparently that’s been quashed by the NEC and Len McCluskey.
What a shitty, undemocratic, unaccountable careerists party.
Best thing Corbyn could do is step aside for Clive Lewis. Brace yersel for another Labour shitshow at some point, it’s what they do best.
I neither admire nor respect them for it, but you have to acknowledge that the English are damn good at this sort of sneaky way of conducting politics.
This is how they managed to get themselves an empire, and how they managed to get the Scots, Irish and Welsh to build it, and run it for them.
I don’t know what May’s end game is but whatever she plans she has us all running around like headless chickens in the yard wondering what she plans to do next.
It’s small wonder that they earned the description ‘Perfidious Albion’.
Fifty quid now on its way to the SNP.
chris kilby says:
18 April, 2017 at 8:52 pm
If the SNP lose so much as a single seat (or even a single vote) zoomer yooners will say it “proves” Scotland doesn’t want Indyref2
probably but then our goal should be to increase and wipe out fluffy and murray
we have the best candidates, all the unionists will be new faces with no track record
the labour voters will be too demoralised to turn up.
support for the snp in recent polls is at 50%
we can do this, and when we do, the unionists pathetic attempts and reasons to refuse the section 30 will evaporate.
i think if win they will have no choice but to agree to the section 30 order
Tory criminals. The EU Ref vote would be invalid. Called by a Party without a legitimate majority. There would have to be another one if called. The SNP could hold the balance of power in Westminster. Get everything. Including Independence. The Tories have totally mucked up.
If the SNP don’t win the council elections the Tories will say that they have lost their mandate for a referendum! Without doubt the SNP need to win this election in order to keep their mandate. The question then is how they are going to use it. Eventually people will get bored of waiting for the SNP to do something with their mandate and lose interest. I think at some point some kind of confrontation with Westminster is necessary. I feel that there will never be a better time than now.
When you have a mandate at WM and Holyrood and that mandate is not recognised. You need to find another way.
The SNP winning 59mps in June will change nothing. Teresa has no respect for our parliament or our first minister.
So we will be relying on WM to grant section 30 or the SNP to hold a legally challengeable referendum. How long will this pain go on.
So the point of mandates on top of mandates is lost on me. We need to ask the people ourselves in the election not win more pointless seats.
It doesn’t matter what the zoomer yooners say about the results, it’s what we do with them that counts.
We need to stop seeing everything from the Unionist point of view.
Think Eric Joyce kinda puts his finger on the ‘nervousness’ about our mandate should we lose a seat or two at the GE and the true position that we would still be in after such a result:
‘Some SNP folk are a bit nervous that they might lose a seat or two and this might somehow enable a Tory Party with a seat or two in Scotland to continue to prevent a referendum, but it really won’t.
Imagine a UK prime minister saying – ‘the people of Scotland have spoken. We have one seat, the SNP has 50-odd. So, no mandate for a referendum, then’. That would of course hamper her own post-election claim for a new Brexit mandate with, perhaps, 40% of the vote. So it won’t happen.
Understandable pre-election nervousness is leading some SNP supporters to argue that there’s no need for an independence referendum – just a majority of Scotland MPs. But this would confuse support for the SNP with support for independence, thereby ignoring and alienating a fair minority of independence supporters. And if the SNP wins most seats but with less than 50% of the vote, it would mean that a UK government could legitimately say that a minority was dictating to a majority (because on those terms only SNP voters would count).
So independence-supporters need to stay calm. There’s no reason to imagine, in any case, that there’ll be much action in Scotland. If Labour keeps up its ultra-unionist position, it’ll likely lose Edinburgh South since Tories there aren’t going to vote for Corbyn to balance out the votes lost to the SNP. The Tories might improve their share of the popular vote, which will concentrate the minds of non-Tories about exactly who the enemy is.
Alistair Carmichael might be the beneficiary of a wee Lib Dem resurgence? There might be a wee change somewhere or other due to local circumstances, but otherwise there really isn’t much room for change.’
Further:
‘For independence supporters, it’s essential to keep the eyes on the prize. Most are SNP folk of course, and it’s only natural that they shout for their party for the next few weeks. There won’t be independence without a referendum, though.
And that few extra percent needed at the referendum will come from non-SNP folk who want the best for Scotland and aren’t put off independence by unreasonable aggression (cough, cough…) just because they might support another party in June’
link to ericjoyce.co.uk
1st things first.
The local election was not cancelled.
If ever the need was required to GET THE VOTE OUT it is in MAY.
Send a big fuck off message that the SNP Vote is alive, well and bloody angry.
That would take the wind out the unionist argument going into GE 17
OK let’s talk UDI, that should be interesting. Well not to me but for many it would seem.
SNP get 55 MP’s on 45% of the vote say and then declare Indepenedence. So what of the other 55% they say nothing? Unlikely.
What of the EU and UN they say to the SNP, very good welcome as the Worlds newest Independent country. Unlikely.
Your going to be in limbo for quite a while, business say aw at least 45% voted for Independence so no reason to relocate, I doubt Scotland would look like an undemocratic one party state. No?
What of our Northern Irish friends, is it possible hot headed NI nationalists would be encouraging hotheaded Scottish Nationalists?
What about hotheaded NI Loyalists encouraging hotheaded Scottish Unionists? Well we cant possibly know the answer to these questions unless the SNP wen’t down this road.
Which they won’t until they have a clear mandate from a majority of the electorate in Scotland. Any other choice would be madness and Nicola Sturgeon, Alex Salmond et al are far from mad.
Focus on the democratic route, that really is the only and best way IMO. We need not fear a referendum, I believe we will win but if a majority of Scots were to chose NO again in a fair referendum, then that’s the way the cookie crumbles and I must accept that.
Just as I believe the NO voters would accept a majority YES vote in a referendum. No point making things far more difficult than they already are.
Focus on winning the support of the majority of voters in Scotland. Do that and job done. Anything else risks losing all the progress, exceptional progress in the last ten years. Who could possibly have thought there was a chance that in 2017 there could be no Labour MP’s in Scotland?
Well that is a real possibility. Ca canny, we will do it but do it right with no trouble and strife as I’m sure the British State would like to poke a big stick into that hornets nest which they would do to destroy the chances of Independence for decades if not forever.
Think!
This now makes sense, but how would Murray know?
link to wingsoverscotland.com
‘twathater’
Love the name. Seriously.
Don’t worry, I’m going to vote with my balls. I’m growing them BIG so I can tick a box on a bit of paper. Big balls = win.
Stating it as baldly as “UDI” is making too much of matters as things stand, I agree.
However, unlike last time where circumstances were completely different, the SNP just cannot go into the coming UKGE without independence being right at the heart of their manifesto. They would look ridiculous if they funked something as fundamental as that.
Maybe they might take a hit on one or two MPs as a consequence, maybe not, but I don’t believe to any significant degree no matter how hard the Unionists try to spin it. A marker will be set down for everyone to see. The real loser from this is going to be Labour. They stand for nothing and are completely redundant in Scotland now.
Having a substantial mandate on a clear independence ticket will add real heft to the SNP campaign for ScotRef. If the incoming UKGov then continues to block or delay that, all bets will be off, call the ensuing process whatever you will.
A tumultuous day.
Just thinking aloud. If SNP was to make the GE about independence, then for those who are predisposed to vote No in Scotland, who the hell would they vote for?
There can be very few constituencies that the Tories could actually win. And Labour? The electorate told them 2 years ago what they thought of them, and things haven’t got any better since.
Could you seriously see any Labour voters in Scotland voting Tory just to keep out the SNP? It’s one thing for a Labour voter to vote No in a referendum, but surely quite another to vote Tory in a GE, especially in the knowledge that you’re going to get a Tory government for the next 10 years.
And if the opinion polls go on showing a Tory majority in UK of 100+ seats, any Labour supporter in Scotland must know they’re doomed at UK level, and might just take the leap to vote for independence.
Got to think too that the SNP is in such a strong position here. Those 56 serving MPs are surely automatic shoe-ins for the candidacy (give or take one or two). But what on earth can Labour do? They only have 7 weeks to find candidates in all those constituencies, and they can hardly just put forward the same ones who were trounced 2 years ago.
I’m sure that the midnight oil will be burning in Bute House tonight.
Where’s sensibledave, tea break? He’s a toryboy that can maybe shed light on toryboy fraudsters, is the 30+ individual count, a toryboy MP count?
Michael Crick?Verified account @MichaelLCrick 3h3 hours ago
BREAKING: The CPS have told Channel 4 News tonight that they are considering charges against more than 30 individuals. #electionexpenses
288 replies 4,207 retweets 2,560 likes
Thinks it’s ‘agents’ too included in that figure Heed.
geeo @ 21:21,
Well-reminded that. More important than ever.
Makes me wonder if the existence of UKGE might even have an impact on the local elections, as well as the reverse. If you’re a trad Labour voter especially. There’s no place to hide now.
How many times can the punch-drunk boxer still manage to leave his corner before finally throwing-in the towel?
@Titler says: 18 April, 2017 at 7:27 pm:
“We’ll update this article with the next 400 most ridiculous things we can think of about the situation as they come to us. “
YAWN!
PLONK!
good news
Mhairi Black MP?Verified account @MhairiBlack 9h9 hours ago
I will be standing again in GE. This is our opportunity to once again reject the Tories’ agenda and provide a strong voice for Scotland.
good news
Mhairi Black MP?Verified account @MhairiBlack 9h9 hours ago
I will be standing again in GE. This is our opportunity to once again reject the Tories’ agenda and provide a strong voice for Scotland.
K1 says:
18 April, 2017 at 9:39 pm
Thinks it’s ‘agents’ too included in that figure Heed.
Must be, but how many, one agent per MP maybe? CPS are clearly talking to the tories though, but not the media. well not clearly.
Extreme levels of tory bullshit pouring out of all UKOK media, so is it likely they are not in the loop?
Breaking,
Greens may not contest Mundells seat!!!!
Election fraud.
Help bury it by not giving the CPS time to press charges. Keep Britain safe! Keep Britain united!
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Rev just showed a wee banner on his feed which reads:
‘Exclusive: Greens co comvener says party should NOT contest Mundell’s seat and work with SNP for a Tory-free Scotland,
No other link to wherever it has come from Rev?
“Now is not the time.”
To coin a phrase.
@Rock
The Tories only make extremely carefully calculated decisions.
Saint Theresa has outsmarted Nicola Sturgeon.
Is this supposed to be satire? What Indy voter would ever call Theresa a Saint except ironically?
I certainly don’t believe that May is a Saint. Quite the opposite, it’s the very fact that the Tories are prepared to be dirtier than most that gives them short term advantages.
My point was always that, whether that was moral or not, or even works in the long term from their own calculations is irrelevant; winning the Indy Ref with dirty campaigning, and then doubling down in the very unpopular policies that made Scotland want Independence in the first place is clearly ridiculous… none the less, that’s what happened because to the typical Tory mindset, it makes sense. It doesn’t matter what happens decades from now, because you won’t be there. Get your grandchildren to pay the cost.
And people can be persuaded to believe it, and vote for it. Your job is to find ways to stop it working, not pretend that it doesn’t.
You go on to say (and it’s hard to tell if you mean it or not, as your tone is all over the place;)
“I don’t know how statistics are compiled, but an SNP total vote of more than 50% is the best response to the unionists.”
That, that right there. Re-framing the argument to match SNP positives instead of actual facts on the ground; yes that’s objectively a Good Thing, more SNP councils means better local policies for Scots… which, contrary to the assumptions as seen above, you know people who disagree with you on the Home Team approach might still want, y’know?
But it’s irrelevant when it comes to Westminster. The ONLY way you’ll put Independence back on the table there is to change the balance of power in the House. Look honestly at what is happening there; May has decided to call Sturgeon’s bluff and say “Ok, prove you have increased support for Independence by increasing your vote share.” And that’s unfair, and dubious of logic at best… however without the actual improved power, with an increased Tory majority, you can’t stop her rejecting it anyway. They’re just looking for excuses they can use when they do what they plan to do anyway.
I’m under no illusion they mean well for Scotland. I just despair at the political naivety which doesn’t prepare for the actual fights ahead, because you can’t believe they’re actually that selfish.
And now I’m bowing out again; I have a splitting migraine and I’m not particularly good at thinking through it to trying to debate where I’m not welcome tonight. But once more… contrary to the assumptions, I hope something good for Scots comes out of this all. Best possible result? Labour/SNP/Lib Dem coalition in Westminster, with more devolved powers for you. But it won’t be Indy via Westminster’s hands. It won’t. No chance.
Cough. Anyone want to send a message to the Express, there’s a poll her you can vote SNP – currently at 3%.
link to express.co.uk
If the SNP say this election is all about independence, a vote for the SNP is a vote for independence, after Scotland is on its own there would be a vote on the make up of the Scottish parliament, after all the next largest party would not exist.
I know it is a gamble, but one I am willing to take.
Interesting to see that the Greens are talking about working with the SNP to make Scotland Tory free and not stand in Mundell’s constituency.
We live in interesting times.
I have not got a clue as to why May has done this. I have even less of an idea as to why Labour will vote in support of it.
Westminster madness!
. Best possible result? Labour/SNP/Lib Dem coalition in Westminster, with more devolved powers for you. But it won’t be Indy via Westminster’s hands. It won’t. No chance.”
It was threatening the English with a Lab/SNP coalition, that probably won the tory landslide, only 23 months ago.
link to huffingtonpost.co.uk
Alex Salmond pickpockets English wallets, giant billboards across the English bit of Great Britain.
Bill Hume @8.02pm
“I think they will do anything to stop Scottish independence because the whole economy of the UK is undepinned by Scotland’s oil.”
You are right Bill, but there is so much more to this. To the loss of Scotland’s oil, whilst very important given the UK’s increasing oil import dependency, needs to be added: (a) the ‘loss of face’ from (simply) losing Scotland from England’s Union; (b) the loss of Faslane and Coulport facilities for Trident; (c) the loss of Scotland’s exports from UK balance of payments; (d) the loss of Scotland’s taxes contributing to UK debt interest payments etc. all in the context of (e) the UK’s huge debt; (f) the UK’s negative balance of payments, and then of course (g) the upcoming BREXIT uncertainties and threats, and (h) over and above all of this, the prospect of an independent Scotland being an example of a successful, progressive country, with close relations with Europe, bordering an England governed by right wing governments.
To what lengths will the UK deep state go to preserve the last vestiges of its ’empire’?
UDI is not an option, neither is letting the media or the unionists set the agenda, and we have already seen that today. They are talking now about the SNP gaining a mandate for an indyref, and the consequences of a drop in support.
Let’s not do that, if we campaign on the basis of a 30 MP’s majority for independence, and we succeed with that target, hopefully higher, then we have quite literally crossed the t’s and dotted the i’s, we already have a mandate for indyref 2, would Westminster seriously in full view of the world, the UN etc, refuse to allow indyref 2.
There is a serious possibility of Westminster stripping power from Holyrood, if we don’t have that 30+ majority at Westminster we have nothing to fall back on. If we get 59, game over.
Heed, quite in depth analysis from late last month in the Guardian, they really are a bunch o’ crooks:
‘At present, up to 20 sitting Conservative MPs are the subject of criminal investigation by 16 police forces. If any of the candidates are charged and found guilty of an election offence, they could be barred from political office for three years or spend up to a year in prison. The whole case is unprecedented: this is the largest number of MPs ever to be investigated for violations of electoral law.’
‘The inside story of the Tory election scandal’
link to archive.is
staggeringly Corbyn will fight the next GE with the same manifesto that Miliband lost with.
That’s how fucking worthless and clueless Labour are right now.
rock is a troll.
Doesn’t read any pro indy newspapers but wants them closed down.
Green news:
link to twitter.com
link to caltonjock.com
Apologies if this has already been posted.
It looks like some calm thinking has been taking place.
link to twitter.com
After G.E. of 2015 and Scruffy Fluffy slithering over the finishing line it now looks like he is OUT … GONE … Ta Ta … CHEERIO …
Now to get down to the HARD work and ensure this works out!
The Tories will win more seats from Labour than they lose to the Liberal Democrats, and will emerge with a larger majority. The only question is how large that majority will be.
Of interest will be whether the SNP can hold onto all 56 seats won in 2015. Probably not.
Marker.. 50 article days, 1 hour anna bit remaining till..
Emergency General Election ’17.
Vote wisely in your LOCAL COUNCILS FIRST.
Good luck for May the 4th be with you first.
Holy shit, please let it be
link to twitter.com
“Michael Gray? @GrayInGlasgow
.@ScotNational cover: Scottish Greens co-convenor backs anti-Tory alliance in Dumfriesshire to beat Scotland’s only Tory MP David Mundell.”
Green news..
We got haunners!
That’s SO Glasgow.
X.
Won’t be long till we get that fucking weird Yoon tactical voting wheel.. let’s hope it’s as effective as the last time 🙂
Titled could ye just gie it a rest wi yer barely disguised stereotypifying of the Scots please?
Oh and one last thing; I’m not stereotyping Scots; how could I, when my whole argument is based upon the fact neither Scotland nor the United Kingdom as a whole is a simplistic as the narratives often pushed here?
But I AM pointing out just how pointless trying to debate wider perspectives is specifically here; Hence the rather childish *plonk* I noticed above, which I’m supposed to assume means I’m being ignored maybe? But so what? The consequences to me personally, as someone who leans internationalist and doesn’t live there are… what?
What it means here though is that the only people left are those who tell you what you want to hear… But you’re the ones with real heart and soul in the Independence game; Shouldn’t you be at least concerned with how it seems to be being played outside your bubble? After all, those are the people you still have to win over…?
But meh. I’ll see myself out.
K1:
“whatever ‘value’ you may think you are bringing to the debate is utterly undermined by this approach.”
Stop giving them Hints!
😎 (incognito) I’m watching you.
Peace Always
If i could i would probably buy shares in Prof Poultice as he is going to be worth a few bob after this as he is the only living psephologist 🙂
Incidentally arent EU citizens like us allowed to vote this time? If so how many?
Arbroath 1320. Hi LA, yes good news from the Greens indeed. I know how disappointed you were when the fluffster crept back in the last time against Emma Harper.
Who will stand for the SNP this time I wonder ans Emma is now an MSP? Good luck on your side of the region, I think Richard Arkless should be re elected for our side.
Mrs May was a pathetic Home Secretary! Sorry, Full Stop.
Her job was to fulfil the Tory Pledge to reduce immigration to 10’s of Thousands and that turned out to be 100’s Thousands. She paid off too many Border Security personnel
and took staff moral to its lowest ever point.
What would you do with a miserable track record like that,
become Prime Minister?
Boris like May knows that Brexit is a disaster for the UK.
That is why he didn’t want the PM’s job as he can see May take all the flack for the impending disaster, and then he takes the job.
Scotland will have Boris, who clearly stated that he hates the Scots, as their PM for a minimum period of 12 years. Who would the UK rich man’s media let take control after what I anticipate to be 22 years straight of Blue Tory Government and 25 years of Austerity Cuts.
We need to enforce the fact that the NHS will be privatised before that date, the pension age will be a thing of the pas,t and social security will be via very costly private insurance policies.
Bill Hume@ 8.02 and stewartb @ 10.05….totally agree. This is May and England going all out to destroy Scottish Independence and our democratic voice, and ensuring once and for all that they keep our oil and resources. This was discussed in the Autumn by her ‘think tank’ despite all the shite about it being a decision ‘made this week’.
BBC is doing its job by distraction..Corbyn blah blah blah….nothing about 30 Tories up for electoral fraud by 15 x separate police force investigations….too many elections…too boring etc…vox pop in Scotland all old or English settlers..no Independence supporters.
May and her corrupt bunch know that they are fucked by the Brexit ballsup and the only way is gamble for a bigger majority before the breshit hits the fan and to to have our resources as bargaining gold chip. A shrunken RUK is a disaster for the Anglo-Saxon pipedream of ‘global britain’: the offshore bolthole for worldwide dirty capital and cheap labour.
The puppet show ia supposed to be about England’s parties.’battleground’.the real story is keeping Scotland fast. Why else has Ruthless Harrison and her mob been sending out anti-Independence literature for weeks?…because they didn’t know this ‘snap election’ wasn’t planned?…Aye Right!
Titler: “May has decided to call Sturgeon’s bluff and say, “Ok, prove you have increased support for independence by increasing your vote share.”
Election fraud? What election fraud?
Look over there, by the Scotland.
How about this.
If the SNP do not want to go for the “straight 30” MP’s = Independent.
How about, 30 MP’s = Indyref on our terms OR the SG reserve the right to declare independence due to WM intransigence in the face of Scottish mandate for indyref.
A wee pre election briefing to the UN making clear our situation, perhaps ?
There is talk of Theresa May just walking away from the EU if she wins a big majority, however, as i understand it, Article 50 is clear that it must take 2 years before the EU can ratify the uk departure.
If that is right, the SG timeline for an indeyref is secure.
However, if the Uk are allowed to just walk away and the EU are ok with that, then that changes everything.
Clarity required from many areas here.
@Hamish100 says:
18 April, 2017 at 10:11 pm
rock is a troll.
Yes, I thought so too, and final, FINAL comments again… no I don’t think that incoherent attempt to argue all sides at once is symbolic of the atmosphere here.
But;
heedtracker says:
18 April, 2017 at 10:04 pm
. Best possible result? Labour/SNP/Lib Dem coalition in Westminster, with more devolved powers for you. But it won’t be Indy via Westminster’s hands. It won’t. No chance.”
It was threatening the English with a Lab/SNP coalition, that probably won the tory landslide, only 23 months ago.
Not “Most Likely”, “Best Possible”, ie the best result anyone, Scotland, England, everywhere could potentially get under Westminster as it currently is. You’re not getting Indy under a Labour majority either; And they aren’t likely getting one. But they may consider it if they have to have a Coalition with the SNP. And everyone gets generally better policies as a UK no matter what. “Best possible”
And all the other alternatives are going to be even worse. Potentially so very, VERY much worse. The Tories just believe they can call your bluff long before it gets to a UDI… and the politics of that promise to be horrendously messy indeed.
Oh, and the Huffington Post isn’t exactly a friend to genuine liberal movements; check your sources folks. Even if the claims made there are true, how does pointing to “The media can get even liberals to vote against their best possible interests?” bode well for the future?
Anyway, enough. Must rest head.
Lochside
Aye but Ruthie Rape Clause has been hoist by the nastiness of her own party.
Aye, we now recognise the announcement of your GE’17 Westminster.
Though, now IS the time to concentrate on OUR Local Elections ’17.
Take it in, and we re-begin.
Just caught Sarah Smith on BBC saying that if Tories put no indyref in manifesto and win then they have a mandate to refuse one, even presumably if they have no MP’s in Scotland. It would seem they could now be set on subjugation of Scotland as a plan.
@Titler (9.56) –
Sorry to hear you have a migraine. Hellish affliction.
Also sorry to see you wasting time responding directly to a spam roll – that probably didn’t help. 🙁
But anyway, I always read your comments carefully as I remember your posts from days of yore and always felt you were sincere and spoke honestly.
On this issue, I feel you are crediting Theresa May with a scope of vision for which there is scant evidence. Insofar as her announcement has huge implications for the future of the UK, I don’t believe that Tory fortunes in Scotland loomed large as a topic in her cabinet meeting. She doesn’t give a fuck about Scotland, and her colleagues’ attitude towards the SNP MPs proves that they know she doesn’t. That’s why they behave as they do on a daily basis. I’m not saying that you defend such behaviour, but I hope you can acknowledge that it is an easily-verifiable fact.
I can understand why you speak of ‘bubbles’ when referring to this place and the Indy-movement more generally, but the marginalisation and belittling of Scottish affairs has not been *our* choice. The fact that the Scottish electorate has been waking-up ever since Holyrood was established – and has subverted its original intended function as a ‘glorified parish council’ – is an inconvenient fact which the British State, despite the best efforts of its broadcaster, has been unable to conceal.
Hope you’ll come back to this particular wee ‘bubble’ and give us more of your thoughts soon – erudite Yoons are very thin on the ground these days.
😉
K1 says:
18 April, 2017 at 10:09 pm
Heed, quite in depth analysis from late last month in the Guardian, they really are a bunch o’ crooks:
That Graun thing is pretty good but its all English fraud.
Fluffie’s in the frame too, online chatter seems to be saying. He’s only won by a tight margin too.
Titler @ 21:56,
Sorry about your headache, hope it passes soon.
While your sentiments are well-intentioned, you have that entrenched belief in the exclusivity and supremacy of Westminster which is so ingrained in the belief system of the English political classes that any alternative is inconceivable from your point of view. But it is becoming increasingly untenable from a Scottish point of view. That is exactly the heart of the issue.
We fundamentally disagree that Westminster holds all the cards. We believe that as a constitutional principle, sovereignity resides in our hearts and minds, not in some corroding fusty old cobwebby building in London and a book written by an ancient geezer called Erskine May. The very assumptions that underpin your attitude to all of this illustrate only too well the divergence between us that is steadily opening up, like two ice floes slowly drifting apart.
There was a time when some kind of formal political recognition of this divergence would have made some kind of continuing UK possible, but it is the very intransigence of the English position and its jealous grip over every single significant lever of power that has made this impossible. I refer back to the American Revolution for a similar example.
The only thing that stands in the way of a total break has nothing to do with your precious Westminster and English political hegemony; it is simply that the people of Scotland are still in the process of making up their minds. But when they do, and I believe they will do so before long, nothing will have the power to stop it. And what is more, the world outside these shores will support us.
It would be wiser to make an amicable break now while that is still possible, but I fear that English pragmatism, while famously flexible, is incapable of dealing with anything as challenging as that.
Just realised me last was a ..666 comment there!
Stay sane.
Vote Aye.
..the tory landslide, only 23 months ago..
37% David Cameron polled. Hé was a slick reader of autocue alright.
May is scared of the cameras as she only has Tory propaganda for a personality, she can’t compute compassion.
Was this a move to crush Ukip and bring their base back together?
Ukip are a single issue party and they have achieved their objective.Maybe the Tories do not want them hanging around in case some random event happens that gives them new life.
From a Scottish position is she trying for voter fatigue?
The people are coming together but not parliament, hence the Election…….If this is to be believed as the reason then we have The Tory party calling an election for a Kumbai sing song on the beach roasting marsh mallows
If that is what they want then Labour should tell Theresa May “Now is not the time” and to focus on her day job
Cactus.. YOU SAY..
Stay sane
Vote Aye
Great advice. In a nutshell.
BTW I meant to mention the unadulterated Theresa May/Tory propaganda being pumped out by Katya Adler, the European Editor of the BBC in Paris re. how the EU would perceive a May GE victory. She stated that there was a ‘strong sense of optimism, behind the scenes’ ..and that ‘EU officials believe that strong win for May would strengthen the negotiations’…so that they can have a strong PM facing them across the Brexit table’….!!!
Why not just have a repeating banner screen statement saying ‘Vote Tory in the next GE.’? The BBC have long relinquished any pretence of being anything other than the State mouthpiece for the British State.
I suspect this General Election has more to do with the “Scottish Problem” than anything else.
I am startled by some comments by folk purporting to be SNP/Independence supporters.
As the SNP is at a higher position in the polls than it was going into the last election and as support for independence has stayed at or above its point at the referendum I can see little reason for any pessimism.
I do understand that some of our support is suckered by the media and the rubbish it reports and that can be a problem. I have just heard the TV news report for instance that Rodeo Ruth is “popular” in Scotland despite the latest poll giving her a very significant negative rating.
All that actually is happening in Scotland is that the diminishing unionist vote is being re distributed and that more well informed people are moving now to support of independence.
One or two contributors here have exposed themselves as the trolls they were suspected to be.
Media pushing a LibDem revival. Peston talking sense about Scotland.
Just read an interesting article entitled “Why is she Frit?” by Anthony Barnett. If anyone can post a link to it, it would be great.
It has a good analysis of May’s timing for calling the election in relation to Brexit, and basically not wanting to go to the polls in 2020 when we are likely to still be subject to European court jurisdiction and paying dues with no trade agreement.
Well worth a read.
@ian murray.(10.42pm).
Any ‘voter fatigue’ is likely to be unionist voter fatigue…’theresa is saying no to the SNP…no need to vote” sort of thing.
Me ?
I cant wat to vote in May…and June…and in a set date in the near future to decide Scotland’s future….champing to vote so i am…!!
Aweright louis.b.argyll ~
Aye, sanity keeps you sane!
😉
Just looking at the news even MSM is showing may going on about no snap election, I hope Europe is watching and learning what a f****d up bunch they are dealing with. As yes is no or maybe or we think it’s yes but.
@Eppy
link to archive.is
Archived and everything for ya.
I watched Liberal Democrat leader Tim Farron be asked about his view of gay people tonight on channel4 news. He didn’t clarify anything and was evasive.
I can’t believe somebody in his position is so freaking backward on things like equality.
DavidB,
Thanks for that. I hope you (and others) find it interesting reading. It explains much about the timing. I think that it shows how the tories are finally realising the extent to which they are stuffed by the EU.
I agree @HandandShrimp says at 10:02 pm (and others).
“Interesting to see that the Greens are talking about working with the SNP to make Scotland Tory free and not stand in Mundell’s constituency.”
Maybe SNP will offer not to stand in Northern Isles (Tidal Energy Capital of the UK) and let the Greens remove Liar Carmichael and gain an elected MP??
ALSO AGREE WITH ALL COMMENTS ON:
LOCAL ELECTIONS 2017 FIRST
THEN CONTNUE ON FOR GE17
One or two contributors here have exposed themselves as the trolls they were suspected to be.
Who are they Dave McEwan Hill?
I agree @HandandShrimp says at 10:02 pm (and others).
“Interesting to see that the Greens are talking about working with the SNP to make Scotland Tory free and not stand in Mundell’s constituency.”
Maybe SNP will offer not to stand in Northern Isles (Tidal Energy Capital of the UK) and let the Greens remove Liar Carmichael and gain an elected MP??
ALSO AGREE WITH ALL COMMENTS ON:
LOCAL ELECTIONS 2017 FIRST
THEN CONTINUE ON FOR GE17
Dave McEwan Hill @ 22:47,
We are aware that the SNP gets some of its vote share at UKGEs from non-indy supporters who still value the SG’s protective shield, especially given the reassurance last time that “this vote is not about indy”. Next time though the SNP has to nail its colours to the mast, since otherwise the Unionists will cry “no mandate!”. (Yes, I know, we have to keep ticking all the boxes, even though the Unionists keep wilfully erasing all theirs.) That might just possibly result in the loss of one or two MPs, what with that and one or two other things. But I like your positive attitude, which seems well-founded.
As to the LibDems in particular, Wee Willie was quoted in The National the other day as saying that “they” have made 30 local by-election gains over the last couple of years, carefully omitting that all but one have been outwith Scotland.
As you are no doubt well aware, news media coverage is largely English-oriented, so I fully expect the reports you mentioned are correct in the sense that the LibDem vote will increase down there at the expense of Labour, whose weak-kneed response to Brexit will earn it all the nemesis it deserves. But up here? I hardly think so.
We have been sieving the prospects of the STV-based local elections very fine lately, but I do not envy the crude choice available to Unionist tactical voters in UKGE2017. They could go all over the shop. Not so with the SNP.
EH?????????
Christopher Hope
??Verified account @christopherhope
NEW Tony Blair urges voters to back any candidate who opposes Brexit amid speculation that he will campaign with the Liberal Democrats
BBC2 Newsnight, usual ferocious tory propaganda right now, a very long line up of “working class” tory vox pop from Barrow, Teresa’s a patriot that stands up for working people, and Corbyn is hopeless they explain.
If BBC frauds could at least have one vox pop that said Mayhem’s a tory c_nt…but its that tight now on planet torboy.
GET OOR FLAGS OUT ON DISPLAY SCOTLAND!
AND REV IT UP FOR THE YES BIKERS!
This is getting ever-closer to the end game.
Taps aff, flags up on your windows, gardens, (I wanna be with you) everywhere.
X.
Election fraud dead according to Guido a couple of hours ago
Sarah Smith back on lying her worthless wee labour arse off again. Saying the SNP will run this election campaign in order to gain an Indyref mandate which the SNP already stated they had after the Scottish election.
Fucking BBC.
‘But I AM pointing out just how pointless trying to debate wider perspectives is specifically here;’
I really don’t understand that statement Titler. We continually converse of the wider perspective here. That being that we are under the rule of Tory government’s that we do not vote for in Scotland. Everything is about the democratic deficit built into our wider political system of governance in the UK.
Since we regained our parliament it’s become increasingly obvious that Scotland ‘is’ a different country from England/Wales. As Ian said you have a very ‘Anglo centric’ outlook.
Do you ever question your inability to look out from your own bubble?
It’s all very well laying it out as you have from ‘your’ perspective but it is deeply undemocratic and frankly hypocrotical for you to come on to the number one independence for Scotland supporting blog in the UK and cast aspersions on those who hold to the view Scotland can be a successful independent country?
Again as Ian pointed out we are relentliessly monstered by UK media, politicians and opposition party’s, we’ve a fairly good idea ‘how this is playing out’. Do you blame us for being somewhat ‘protective’ of our political position on Wings.
You don’t have to take this so personally and you certainly don’t have tae be impugning (subtly) the Scots wi the notion that we are somehow ‘not’ internationalists…it’s your fellow countrymen/women who voted Brexit overwhelmingly and your country since who has experienced the backlash with the rise of hate crime especially toward other nationalities? It’s precisely on the back of the ‘wider’ UK vote that we find ourselves with many previous No voters seeing the writing on the wall and understanding that for Scotland to remain internationalist in outlook we have tae fight to remain part of the EU.
We are at 50/50 in Scotland for independence that means we are winning over those within our own polity Titler. Stop assuming only ‘you’ have the ‘correct’ outlook and that you are uniquely free of your own prejudices.
Don’t mind if I do:
link to youtube.com
Do it.
Jockanese Wind Talker & HandandShrimp
we should be careful of being seen to collaborating with the greens.
one day, in the future, a combined unionist party will emerge in scotland, no question. our greatest chance of success is getting a yes vote in indyref2 BEFORE this happens.
dont give the yoon parties an excuse to make a pact
stop press
just watching lesley riddoch being gubbed on newsnight by the bcc and torrance but she is giving as good as she gets, the yoon media dont like it so are interupting her constantly
the bbc who would have thought it ,appear to have missed or are blissfully unaware of the distinct prospect of Tory MPs and their agents numbering 20 could face prison sentences of up to a year , Do you think someone should let them know ? . just asking .
Jockanese Wind Talker at 11.06
I don’t get how the Greens could win Orkney and Shetland. They haven’t contested the seat before and at the last election the late (and very old) Danus Skene effected a 27% swing to the SNP and almost beat Carmichael. I hope the SNP gets a good and energetic candidate in as quickly as possible.
BBC Newsnight gies tory mad in Scotland, no SNP anywhere, just Sarah Smith and a beeb ligger, outside Holyrood, things looking great for the tories in Scotland, says Sarah.
Lesley Riddock talked over by same Beeb gimp and beeb camera slides behind the beeb gimp, so you cant see her but have to look loveling on, wait for it, ultra toryboy Scottish david whatisface, the angry walnut twitter flouncer, Torrance!
Now its Fraser Nelson, creepiest slimy toryboy ever produced by Nairn.
Lights out.
Here’s the real reason for the snap election:
Article on BBC website which says that a ‘useful side-effect of the snap election’ is that it gets the tories ‘off the hook’ on the election expenses row.
Apparently the legitimacy of more than 20 MP’s was questionable. The CPS has till the end of may or early June to decide, per seat, whether to proceed or drop the cases.
Now the candidates can stand again in their seats and – if re-elected – they can claim to have won fair and square this time.
If any of their agents are charged in the meantime, while it may be embarrassing, it will not necessarily be terminal for the MPs’ chances of being re-elected.
Conveniently then, 8th June neatly side steps all of that.
link to bbc.co.uk
Did I just here correctly? A voice I heard that sounded like David Torrance’s, when asked how many seats the SNP would need to win to go ahead with an indyref2, said “Oh about 40”. I looked at the TV in surprise and it was him.
The Torrance of old would have said something like “If there is any drop from the 56 SNP MPs gained at the last GE then the SNP lose the moral authority to hold an indyref2.”
Is he another on the turn?
Well don’t know about the rest of you Wingers but I’m in a right good mood. I totally believe this will backfire on May in Scotland, hopefully boost the results for the Indy supporting parties in the council elections.
Then the GE itself I think will be unbelievable, this time we Indy supporters will be turning out while the Unionists will be turning off. They are becoming demoralised, our voice gets louder and I don’t hear their voices anymore.
Hahaha this is not the endgame but still the middle game, there will be quite a few tactics and strategies will change in the run up to Brexit.
So far though, I’d say Independence is a pawn up, winning and plenty to play for 🙂
Scotland is in front, and that’s all that needs to be said.
my internet feed (no tv, radio of phone reception in this part of deepest darkest fife) is suffering from interference so i could catch what lesley said.
by the way she was introduced as an snp sympathiser and torrance as a thorn in nicola’s side
while not a member of the greens, lesley is a longtime campaigner for land reform and a close friend of andy wightman,
there is no longer even the pretence of fairness by the bbc
STOP PRESS FOLKS
greens saying they will not stand a candidate in fluffies seat
trollken500………do one
schrodingers cat @ 23:26:
Oh, I don’t know. A handy reminder of Better Together will really go down well now, don’t you think? =grin=
That’s the way things are naturally heading anyway, isn’t it? All in the “safe hands” of the Tories, of course. What proportion of still-faithful Labour supporters could stomach voting for them? Even with a dollop of LibDem on the side.
I feel more and more that there’s a tipping point on the way, and it’s basically 2:1 in favour of independence.
@Heed
Yes but – Torrance did say that anywhere over 40 seats was a win for the SNP. With Riddoch alongside him he didn’t dare say anything else 🙂
Anyway, the LibDems are expected to improve in England and Wales, but I’m going to take a flier on Labour’s chances being wrongly written off. Similar but the other way around to the 2015 election where to start with it was reckoned Labour would win but need the SNP. Labour could sneak a few, and there’s a couple of seats in Wales went Tory could well go back again – Wales too are being shafted by May. So who knows?
Thepnr says:
18 April, 2017 at 11:35 pm
Well don’t know about the rest of you Wingers but I’m in a right good mood. I totally believe this will backfire on May in Scotland,
——————
i think yer right pnr, but what is becoming clearer is treeza is calling this ge because 30 tory mps are about to be charged with electoral fraud, not because as stus article above pointing out that treeza is delusional
she has called this ge cos she dont have a choice
Tomorrow’s National front page:
Tomorrow’s National twitter pages:
link to twitter.com
geeo @ 10.37
That’s the best plan I have heard all day. Do you work for the SG? lol.
On all the sites and posts I have read today, those wanting the GE in June to be a mandate for indy seem mostly to come from us over 60s who have wanted indy for c50 years. We voted SNP in the early 70s when that was the case.
In late August 2015 we had an SNP Open Day in Clydebank and Marco Biagi, then a SG minister for local government was there.
I spoke to him about Land Reform and he told me that any reform had to stand up in the courts no matter what Lesley Riddoch said. I told him I agreed with what LR had written in an article in The National earlier in the week.
I also mentioned that in the 70s I willed a majority of SNP MPs because that would have meant independence and he said that they had stopped that c2002. I got the impression that it was a party conference vote.
There was no such vote at conference last month to overturn that. We may have to go with geeo’s plan @10.37.
@Robert Graham says: 18 April, 2017 at 8:44 pm:
“When oh bloody when are the SNP going to nail this once in a f/kn lifetime pish, it’s easy ,not one of the promises given was delivered so deal null and void, contract not fulfilled its that simple .”
Why would the SNP want to, “nail”, one of the things that the Yoons lie about?
It is that plethora of lies and misleading claims that eventually converts those who we activists show the obvious lies to.
If we can show up just one wee lie to someone who believes all the BBC claims as Gospel we are well on the road to making a convert.
“Tommy Sheppard had a golden opportunity on The BBC national news and missed it in my opinion . His interview started with, well the only way for your Party is down then?”
So what would you have wanted him to say, Robert? In point of fact it isn’t in any way an insult and is 100% true. The reason the only way for the SNP to be only down is because they can hardly go much further up.
They have all but three seats at Westminster. So can only gain three seats.
They are the government at Holyrood and cannot better that except to increase their majority. In spite of the Yoon idiocy that they do not have a majority, the fact is that they do. That is why they, without coalition, form the government.
True they do not have an overall majority but for the Yoons to exploit that fact they must all act together. By doing so they make themselves laughing stocks and expose the fact that these, supposedly bitter political enemies, at opposite ends of the political spectrum they must act in unison as unionists together. In doing so they have both shed voters who realise that their claimed political differences are a total sham.
It is, for them a weakness and is destroying the Labour party and has already destroyed the LibDems. They are all now lumped in together as Yoons.
“This was followed by the usual nodding heads saying oh yes it will be difficult to follow their last success.”
How the hell are you making out this is some kind of insult? What they are saying is that the SNP are so far above the rest that there is very little room for improvement. It quite simply is true. How hard it will be to get much better than they are now. A near wipe out of the Scottish yoons seats at Westminster and the government at Holyrood is going to be very hard to improve upon – that’s not an insult it is a compliment.
The only way to improve upon it will be to also take over most of the local councils and they are looking like doing just that.
“have the BBC morphed into the Tory party ? Bloody disgusting.
No! The BBC in Scotland have been labour biased for many, many years but how the hell you can come to the conclusion that to say the only way for the SNP is down because they have virtually reached the top is far from being insulting.
Thepnr says:
18 April, 2017 at 11:35 pm
Well don’t know about the rest of you Wingers but I’m in a right good mood. I totally believe this will backfire on May in Scotland, hopefully boost the results for the Indy supporting parties in the council elections.
———————
i agree, it will backfire, but i disagree with stu’s take that this is a mistake. they announced tonight that 30 tory mps are to be charged with electoral fraud.
treeza called a ge, not because she is delusional, as per stu’s article, she has done this cos she aint got any choice
knowing this, this should be a comfort to us all, our enemy is on the rack, not deluded or even deep thinking conspiracy theorists, just out options, ideas or choices
#voteyes
If only we had won in 2014 we would not have to put up with all this crap.
Oh well. Just got to saddle up again.
Getting nothing but Tory opinions in the media all night.
O/T
R Clause
Just shy of 23,000 signatures…keep pushing…it’s getting there…
link to petition.parliament.uk
Confirmed tonight Tories to remove the Triple lock on pensions
@Chick
Strange one Torrance, I think he likes the EU. Here’s an interesting discussion from his feed
link to twitter.com
@yesindyref2
“Yes but – Torrance did say that anywhere over 40 seats was a win for the SNP. With Riddoch alongside him he didn’t dare say anything else”
Ah yes, Lesley was present. Perhaps should have included that highly pertinent fact. Gotta love Lesley, saw her recently at the Frank Quitely exhibition at the KGAG&M. She once knocked me aside running for a train in Waverly, obviously pre knee issue period.
But even allowing for the force of nature that Lesley is… I wonder?
here’s the link for “why is she frit” whoever requested it
link to opendemocracy.net
Fireproofjim……praise the lord and pass the ammunition.
Saddle up indeed……let’s do this.
@Chick
I got the feeling some weeks / months ago that if there was a convincing case for the economy, he’d go for it.
@Titler
I can always learn, that however does not alter your status
@schrodingers cat
She probably didn’t have a choice then if around seats or so were going to be re contested. I still think though she will increase her majority.
The best result possible for the Tories and for Scottish Independence.
Five, ten or twenty more years of the Tories will be unpalatable in Scotland. Has to be a win for us. Bring it on LOL
Nothing…is in greater agreement with the popular doctrine than to consult with the nation as a whole regarding the chief points on which are founded governments, basic laws, and the supreme rule. All individuals are subject to error and seduction but not the people, which possess to an eminent degree a consciousness of its own good and the measure of its independence. Because of this its judgment is pure, its will strong, and none can corrupt or even threaten it’ Hugo Chavez, 2007 inaugural address
Scotland is extremely fortunate to be given another chance to exercise its judgment and either choose to be a country in charge of its destiny or remain a democratically (but not economically) insignificant region of a land mass governed in perpetuity by the aggressive New Right Tory party. In that set up there is no logical resting place between a minimal and maximal state. It is not the Conservative way with their grandiose ideas of freeing the market and abolishing the state within a model of trickle- down economics.
Foodbanks, inaccessible health care, social segregation, a low wage economy and destroying the fabric of society by discouraging solidarity is the new norm. Retaining power and influence in the hands of the few who have lost sight of their humanity is the end game. Furthermore they want you, the gullible electorate, to vote for it.
Scotland can choose something different and express its democratic will at the ballot box by as many of the voting public as possible. An educated engaged electorate is the least attractive option for WM who would prefer an electorate suffering from Democratic Fatigue Syndrome. That allows them to get on with their day job of growing the inequality gap and creating a dual economy of rich and poor whilst the middle class vanishes.
Historically it has taken war and violent revolution to reduce inequality but for Scotland it will be a gradual, consensual and conflict free evolution toward independence. The world is watching, democracy needs to be re-imagined and Scotland can lead the way. Now is the time.
Let’s be careful about the ’30 Tory MPs in fraud’ stuff – it could well be just a couple of MPs and 28 apparatchiks having their collars felt.
We already know one thing for sure – if Tories can spin it that way? They will.
@yesindyref2
Looked at your twitter feed but didn’t see anything particularly evangelical re the EU.
No, I think your original ‘Joanna Lumley’ theory may be nearer the mark, or, he is in fact, swithering.
We’re to be crushed into unity now
I’ll be interested to see that
Bloody stupid woman thinks she’s in the dark ages on the crusades to make us all believers or die
ronnie anderson @8.17
I’m fed up with the UDI ists as well.
It’s not happening!
Oh I dunno about that – all the slab comrades here in Dumfries voted Tory last time….
Joanna Cherry on Twitter saying that:-
‘Lots of people in Edinburgh have joined the SNP in the last 5 hours”
Dr Jim @ 23:58,
Ah. Another indyref1 chicken comin’ home, then.
And another entry for WBB 2nd.ed.
Robert Peffers: ‘It is that plethora of lies and misleading claims that eventually converts those who we activists show the obvious lies to.’
A good point, and very comforting in its Machiavellian splendour.
@Chick
His twitter conversation I think shows his interest in the EU part. He’d never be an SNP supporter – just like K McK wouldn’t either from the opposite direction!
Talking about the “Democratic Fatigue Syndrome”.
Enjoy – and take the message on board and to your friends and neighbours!
link to eurofree3.wordpress.com
Good news is that P Harvie is going to let the SNP have a straight run at Mundell,s seat without Greens standing but with help to get rid of all Tories in Scotland.
More good news is that more folk seem to be joining the SNP especially in Edinburgh. I read it on twitter.
the snp is not short of talent but who do you think should stand against mundell and murray?
the higher the profile the better?
big guns time here me thinks
This could be a good thing for us if the electorate get out and vote. I think they will. SNP”” NUMBER 1
@yesindyref2
SNP support and indy support are not, despite a large Venn diagram overlap, exactly the same thing.
@Schrodinger’s Cat –
There has been ‘chat’ on Twitter about AS going in to unseat Mundell.
I stress…’chat’.
This from Rev’s feed:
David Schneider tweeted:
‘Theresa May’s statement on the general election in full’
link to mobile.twitter.com
Oh ah would love if Alex did that!
*throws handful o’ popcorn ontae entire face*
Don’t see why Emma Harper can’t stand again in Mundell’s seat even though she is now an MSP. When did the rules change?
Can you still be a MSP and a MP?
My MSP speaks very highly of her.
My prediction for the GE
Con – 285
Lab – 200
SNP – 57
LD – 58
Tories are the largest party but lose their majority.
Remainers vote tactically for LD in West Country and around London and take back 50 seats from Tories that were lost in 2015.
Fluffy goes in Scotland (Greens don’t stand and Labour continues to go to SNP)
A couple of ex-Labour seats swing back from Tories to Lab in Wales.
Cons take 12 seats off Labour
Alex prepared to stand again in Gordon constiuency.
Angus Mac neill prepared to stand again.
Mhairi Black standing again.
David Mundell standing again.
Ian Murray standing again.
@Ben Madigan 12 am
That’s a very good piece and I think its spot on.
Brexit has finally dawned on them, less than a month after A50, its heinous what the UK has been led in to, and we know that.
If May loses the gamble she can walk, if she wins, she can blame the electorate for voting to give her sweeping powers. All that bull about Westminster being such a nuisance, when the Labour group prop them up, not like she had any trouble getting stuff through.
Other commentators saying recession on the way plus mess of Brexit, public services, financial etc.
In fact, I will be surprised if she stands for reelection in Maidenhead.
What’s in front is Armageddon, and she knows that.
Forgot tae say Smallaxe…nice glasses, seriously didnae recognise ye for a while there..cool 😉
@ K1: “…popcorn”
Haha!
It would be like Muhammad Ali vs Stephen Hawking, and not a maths competition if you know wot I mean ‘arry.
@Chick
Indeed. After Davidon’s recent performances, surely there’ll be more Scottish Conservatives thinking things over? Can only hope!
@Sunniva
That sounds quite possible to me. It would make life interesting!
Well, what a day!
Can’t wait to hear Nicola’s plan.
Scottish questions and PMQ’s tomorrow in WM followed by a debate and vote on the emergency General Election. In theory TM needs two/thirds majority of MP’s but possible she’ll get a unanimous decision.
Can’t wait to hear Nicola’s plan.
FMQ’s on thursday – oh boy! Nicola has so-oo many phrases she can use on Ms. Harrison.
Will the Tories walkout (- conveniently allowing themselves time to canvas for the GE.)
Can’t wait to hear Nicola’s plan.
She looked delighted with today’s news – a real sparkle in her eyes.
Oh, what a day!
@sunniva
I think you are ignoring the anti Scottish vote in England there. The card that Cameron played DAILY and very effectively and May will play that as well since she is quite possibly more poisonous than Cameron. May is also attempting to deny Sturgeon and SNP any and all publicity because Sturgeon will have her breakfast and spit her out if such a debate ever took place.
Mays election strategy or part of it is already clear to me as in – it we English Brexiters against the Europhiles and the sponging Jocks. They will of course be pouring out 24/7 SNP BAD drivel in Scotland but in England as it was at the last GE be pure anti Scottish bile.
The Tories are utterly ruthless, no pun intended and they don’t care what damage they cause or what they will unleash. We saw the hate crimes post Brexit in England. We are in for more of the same because appealing to the lowest common denominator in England wins elections for the Tories.
I thus think you underestimate the Tories.
Meg merrilees @1.00 am
Can’t wait for Scottish Questions & 11.30 followed by PMQs at 12 on Parliament Channel 131 (or a different no if you are on SKY).
Should be exciting.
Yes FMQs should also be good on Thursday.
Politically, I thought the run-up to the indyref was the most exciting time. Then the GE 15, then SGE 16, then EUref, but this GE seems to have topped them all.
I have to say
CRUSH THE SABOTEURS (CRUSH THE SABOTEURS)
CRUSH THE SABOTEURS (CRUSH THE SABOTEURS)
You be good to me
I’ll be good to you
We’ll be together, yeah
We’ll see each other
Walk away with victory, yeah oh baby
CRUSH THE SABOTEURS (CRUSH THE SABOTEURS)
CRUSH THE SABOTEURS (CRUSH THE SABOTEURS)
@ the outside world
Help!
Shoulda hashtagged it Stu ‘crush the saboteurs’ 😉
Ah, I get it.
I am he as you are he as you are me
And we are all together
See how they run like pigs from a gun
See how they CRUSH THE SABOTEURS
I’m crying
I wanna know what love is,
I want you to CRUSH THE SABOTEURS
You may say I’m a dreamer
but I’m not the only one
I hope some day you’ll join us
And the world will CRUSH THE SABOTEURS
I really do wish that people should stop claiming that the 2014 referendum is invalidated by the “more powers” NOT being delivered.
That referendum was invalidated because of the offer of more powers in the first place.
It is a bugbear of mine, since more powers was rather explicitly BANNED from the ballot paper.
Isn’t ‘saboteur’ french for a clog maker?
Crush the clog-makers!That doesn’t sound fair!
2,500 have joined the Lib Dems today apparently.
Adieu fair saboteurs – sleep well and dream of sabotage.
Oh she’s just a Kelty clippie,
she’ll no tak nae advice;
It’s, ‘Ach drap deid awa’ bile yer heid,
or I’ll CRUSH THE SABOTEURS’
Predictions are not much help, and likely to be wildly wrong. It nevertheless remains my wild guess – and I defy anyone to deny it – that in 2017 the Beginning of June will see the End of May.
There is a logic to this, of course.
It happens every year.
So it’s not such a wild prediction after all.
More like an inevitability, in fact.
The new election is supposed to be ‘the true blue Beginning of May’s UK’. But it won’t be.
The night before she died, Mary Queen of Scots wrote to her cousin in France, saying ‘In my end is my beginning’.
I don’t suppose a Hard Brexiteer like the Mayflower has a French cousin. But if she did, she might be writing to him on June 7th, saying, ‘In my Beginning is my End’. June 8th will prove it, and on June 9th she will be gone.
At first, people will think Hard Brexit has turned into Soft Brexit. Then daggers will be drawn, and the scramble for the vacant throne will commence. The Hard Men of yore – especially Boris the Swirling Dervish – will do yet another somersault-twirl, magically turning himself back into ‘Mr. Softly Softly Softie’, Champion of the Softest of Soft Brexits.
But the New-Born Softies will be assailed by the Far-Gone Hardies as the increasingly Not-On Tories implode in front of our eyes. The Disunited Brexiteers in the other Parties will do likewise and fare no better. England, that bastion of stability, to the world’s astonishment, will prove ungovernable …
And Scotland will be free.
In a jiffy. Without a shot being fired. No one will want to stay united to such a shambles. It’s just common sense. This thing has its own momentum: England has gone completely mad. Having taken over the asylum, the Raving Loonies will quickly lose the key …
And Scotland will be free.
Nothing spectacular. All we’ll have to do is give the open door a wee shove, stride through, and walk away from it all. Simple, really. Plain common sense will prevail.
The beginning of June will see the end of auld May,
And Scotland, renewed, will walk quite away!
Common sense all prevailing, the Union all failing,
Scotland’s Beginning … is the End of UK …
And England, I hope, unshackled of might
Will return to her senses, escape from her plight,
A nation again, one among many,
Europe, she’ll find, was never her enemy:
Robbed of illusion, of imperial grandeur,
To the mind of the mob she no longer will pander.
Set free, to be … the best of herself,
England much will contribute, along with the rest
To the concert of nations. … A harmonious sound
Where England and Scotland, distinct and new-found
Will each play their pairt, and – pairted – will prosper
As each one the other, and Europe, will foster!
For Brexit’s a Gonner, as Prof Tom did Devine:
‘It simply won’t happen’, he rightly opined.
But little he knew that Mrs May would deliver
The arrow that killed it, from her very own quiver.
‘The people are one in support of My Brexit’
She opines to herself, and completely forgets it
That Scotland’s against, and half England as well
As the vote on June 8th most surely will tell.
While her pro-Brexiteers can’t even agree
On what kind of Brexit they’d all like to see.
So their unity fake will disintegrate,
And implode, … long before the result on June 8.
A result that will confirm that England’s gone mad
And show to the world that Scotland’s cause is not bad –
Independence for Scotland will be plain common-sensible
Union with England, all will see, indefensible …
Yet Scotland, made free,
Will help England to see
That Brexit is wretched
And no place to be.
And England’s return,
Once Brexit’s undone,
Will rightly delight
The Europe she spurned.
And one more bung ho!
Imagine you’re in Scotland on a Sunday afternoon
Toora loora loora loora lay
Your throat is dry and dusty as a summer’s day in June
CRUSH THE SABOTEURS
@Wull
Most Excellent
“Thus bold, independent, unconquer’d, and free,
Her bright course of glory for ever shall run :
For brave Caledonia immortal must be;
I’ll prove it from Euclid as clear as the sun :
Rectangle-triangle, the figure we’ll chuse :
The upright is Chance, and old Time is the base;
But brave Caledonia’s the hypothenuse;
Then, ergo, she’ll match them, and match them always.”
Heh. Cool and calm
One ballot at a time. LA – GE – Referendum if that is what it takes. Consistency of leadership and application of appropriate response for actions taken.
May is moving to secure England’s vote and Conservative dominance for a reason. She has been left with nowhere else to go constitutionally. The EU vote and the Brexit result was an unmitigated disaster for Conservative government. Their party has effectively fractured UK society along multiple lines to breaking point. She is fully aware of this, just as she is aware of her inability to prevent a Scottish referendum and Labour’s current UK polling position.
The Scottish Government and YES movement need only focus on one thing. Protecting the interests of Scotland’s electorate. One ballot and one vote at a time.
The home stretch isn’t far off and I’d reckon consistency of message and approach will prove vital. Our electorate needs reassurance and an absence of fear and panic from our representatives.
Now more than ever, let’s watch their backs and give them a hand. 😉
geeo @ 1.41am
Bug bear of mine as well geeo,for me the day the Union ended was the day the vow was made.
They not only made promises that invalidated the vote….As many pointed out those were promises that could not be kept.
As they failed to understand that the Independence minded people could now communicate with each other so the media could no longer stymie the discussion,it was obvious that the 2014 vote was not going to ever be seen as the end of the matter,and certainly not for 25yrs as the BBC informed Tommy Shepherd…..Not heard that figure before!!!!
Well, the most basic point, it seems to me, is that the Tories have staggered like a blind drunk from one crash of their own making to another.
The Yoon Tree Scribblers are now striving to pretend that this latest stagger is some kind of masterstroke, but it’s all bluff and bluster. The Tories should be roundly mocked, not lauded.
In stark contrast to the SG, this UKGov is plumb clueless and incompetent. It isn’t fit to be in charge of a whelk stall, never mind a whole country.
There’s important questions to be asked .
Will Labour have slogans?
Will Labour have mugs?
Will there be mugs with slogans?
Will there be mugs with “No Slogans Just Mugs”?
Good one, Swami 😉
Fantastic post Wull. 🙂 (@ 1:45am)
Only got to the first 100 or so posts, so apologies if it has been mentioned. There’s a lot of knee-jerking in here.
Remember one thing. In 2014, the SNP had 6 MPs to Labour’s 41, Lib Dems’ 11, and Tories’ 1.
Now the SNP have 56 to 3, so any General Election or #Scotref will be from a perspective of the media either blatantly ignoring 95% of the elected MPs (expect it), or the SNP having a much higher profile, if not in the media, then on the streets.
The Labour ‘heavyweights’ are gone. Their time is past. Chill and smile and realise that with each election, each referendum and each issue, we get more savvy, more experienced and more easily heard.
Speaking of media, does this potential GE scupper any plans for better Scottish media from the BBC / Others?
More pollsters getting it wrong. Trying to influence the result. The Westminster criminals mucking up again. They just can’t help themselves. The Tories have mucked up again. They trying to cover up and contain their criminal behaviour of illegitimate government. The rest of the UK economy going even further down the tubes. Officiated by a criminal bunch of craven crooks and liars. Aided by a criminal crooked, tax evading non Dom ‘Press’. Do the world a favour get rid of SKy. Unsubscribe. There are plenty of credible alternatives.
It is like an alternative universe. Folk can only look on in horror as the illegitimate pagent plays out. The Westminster crooks and criminal liars. Trying to keep their criminality hidden under the Official Secrets Act, Destroying the world economy. What a unionist shower of criminal sychopants. It would be laughable if they weren’t so dangerous.
Thank goodness for the SNP and the Scottish Gov doing as much as it can to protect people and services in Scotland. Admired and supported by millions worldwide. Thwarted by the criiminal unionist/green no party at every turn. Along with the Tory Royal sychophants. Who should keep quiet, as required, or bow out. What a farce. Illegally killing and starving children and causing mental health problems.
Much can happen before June. 2017 will not be uneventful.
Dorothy Bruce says:
18 April, 2017 at 8:32 pm
Should the Tories manage to secure a majority down south then the Scottish Parliament could be at risk. May wouldn’t think twice about wanting to quash what she sees as dissent in Scotland. Our parliament is on the line as is another indyref. Make no doubt about it.
I think you’re right, Dorothy.
You know, I can see the scenario where the SNP wins the vast majority of Scottish seats again and Mayhem comes out with “but it was a UK election and the whole of the UK has spoken. Now is the time for us all to to come together, Brexit means Brexit, blah, blah, blah, so we will present a bill in the queen’s speech to abolish the devolved institutions, purely for the good of us all and for securing the best Brexit deal, blah, blah, blah…. Did I mention that Brexit means Brexit”.
I’ve been thinking about this.
I sincerely believe it’s going to come down to what is in the manifestos. For May to secure the type of Brexit she wants she is going to have to state that her Manifesto is a mandate to override, take powers or suspend devolved administrations until Brexit is concluded.
So forget polls and instead look at the upcoming results in May, the SNP should wait until they see the result of the May elections and the contents of the Tory manifesto. If the Tory manifesto hints at or outright states removal of powers or preventing a referendum then the SNP manifesto should be a straight up UDI call on return of a majority of SNP seats.
Another car crash by Kezia Dugdale on Radio Scotland GMS at 7.50 am. Floundered when asked how Labour would pay for their Glasgow manifesto pledges and got stuck when asked if new schools would be under PFI.
May will let the Mail Express etcetera do her canvassing. She will let other demonise Corbyn SNP. Thank goodness for WOS. Dug out my wee snp lapel badge. It’s on the jacket until We win.
You can bet your bottom dollar, whatever will be in the Toerags’ election manifesto, it will all be lies. They will stick to very broad brush strokes and there will be no mention of their real agenda.
I can see them abolishing Holyrood – they will need our assets more than ever post-Brexit – but, there will be no mention of this.
Funny how much the English establishment loves war-like imagery; their wet dreams about military glory; their use of hard words, such as crush the saboteurs.
The English love a good fight, they love conquering smaller nations, funny though, they’ve been trying since the 13th century to conquer Scotland, but, even though, they’ve had the help of generations of Proud Scots But – they’ve never managed it.
And, they will not in 2017.
The mail’s headline in Scotland is to be expected, vote for someone else to manage your affairs for you because you are too poor, wee and stupid!
In England it is menacing, seeking to root out opponents to Mrs May, like red coats in the village seeking out rebellious Scots.
Farage accused Europeans of behaving like the mafia, Mrs May and her party out do the mafia on the scale of criminality by a long chalk!
But as we know, a compliant and friendly press, including Scottish branch, won”t expose the tories as they are one and same!
Can we trust Theresa May?: link to wp.me
Is Brexit really Brexit or is it Brick it? Who knows?
WE have a prior date for a election , dont lose sight of the 4th of May Dont get distracted People Council Elections could be the catalyst for a clean sweep for the SNP in June 8th. Eyes on the prize at all times folks .
Do we know if 16 to 18s and EU residence are getting to vote?
‘Should the Tories manage to secure a majority down south then the Scottish Parliament could be at risk.’
I don’t think there’s any doubt about this. Abolishment might be too dramatic a move, but they can easily strip away powers over time. And they can just deny a referendum time after time.
This is why I favour going into this GE with a manifesto commitment for UDI.
So SLAB and the Tories? Are they going to chuck the Council elections under the Battle Bus?
If this election does have something to do with the election expenses scandal then one absurdity will be that you might see them retain their seats despite having a ban on them standing again for three years placed on them. It’s all a matter of timing. There’s always the laughable potential that the ban might be imposed during the election so they get removed from the ballot without anyone to replace them.
A far likelier scenario is that it’ll be decided that even though the rules had been broken the individual candidates weren’t at fault so no ban should be imposed. Unlike the Carmichael case the election would have to be rerun but that’d be a technicality.
As these were mainly marginals the expectation might be that should the elections be rerun due to the Conservatives being found guilty of cheating then the expectation would have to be that they might lose some, if not all, of them and thus weaken the majority. Even a pro-Brexit stance might backfire as the legitimacy of the government would be under question.
Losing a majority under those circumstances would lead to an inevitable vote of no confidence. That in turn would cause an election based on the Government behind Brexit being being incapable of trust.
The opposition parties would then have a choice of outright refusal to implement Brexit which may be impossible or a note realistic stance of choosing a far less destructive form than May seems capable of achieving. Pointing out that even whilst members of the EU May had powers to restrict movement and even deny access to the UK benefit system but was incapable of doing so might help.
Pre-empting that process allows the chance of securing a majority that doesn’t depend on those vulnerable seats without the election being based on the cheating that resulted in a lost of majority once found out. Replacement candidates might be added insurance.
I’ve calmed down from yesterdays gung-ho approach. May probably wants the GE to be an Indy vote. Why should we vote on Indy without the votes of EU nationals and 16-18 year olds.
GE first, then Indy!
Richardinho:
Don’t play into the hands of those who would do us harm. Let’s see what Nicola has to say on this matter, at the moment Nicola is asking for donations, she has mine and there are other good causes too who need funds to get us where we want to be.
Place your bets carefully!
Peace Always
The 16/17 year olds who voted in the IndyRef are now 18. With more coming along behind. 57,000 2015 (average) died in Scotland. 55,000 births register. The populations in most European countries in decline without migration. People having less children.
Westminster unionists centralist policies have depopulated Scotland and made it poor. Illegally and secretly taking £Billions out of Scotland. Keeping it hidden under the Official Secrets Act.
It’s a contrived effort to prevent Scotland leaving the UK. If she loses & a new PM & UK cabinet is installed, no matter from which party, they can simply call off Brexit claiming it wasn’t their idea in the first place & remove the reason the SNP needs to justify a 2nd referendum.
If she wins, she can say the British want a Tory government & that their government will never yield to the SNP.
And if there’s the slightest fall in support in Scotland for the SNP, whether it’s a loss of one MSP, one MP or even a drop in the popular vote share, May will declare that the momentum for Scottish independence has finally stopped.
This is her Culloden 2017.
My thoughts are why should the other parties give that turncoat the chance of a bigger majority to crush everyone else,Lab have no chance and we are going to be told like last time we want to break up Britain and play on the fears of the pensioners.
May has 30 MPs who could be charged with fraud and if found guilty she would have to run with a minority Government to me that is part of why she wants this election so I say don’t give her the chance.
If it goes ahead come on all people of Scotland vote SNP,is the Tank going to stand I wonder??
There are no journalists left in Scottish media / BBC has only placemen / women who will follow union mantra.
No change in evidence whatsoever.
Real fight on our hands to come see selection of so called general public with 80% against democratic choice?? Really ?
Selective editing, because they can folks!
See newsnight with wee weetabixman last night
Groundhog day !!!!
Thought Brexit was now unstoppable whatever this result? Theresa May loses Maidenhead!
The question of Scottish Independence has always been understood to be a matter for the Scottish Parliament and Scottish people. Any decision on Indy has to be made in Scotland by those who live in Scotland. These are two very well known realities, which were developed out of the build-up to; and undertaking of the 2014 Referendum.
The Scottish parliament has already voted for the mandate for a second referendum… any Westminster election is about reserved matters only. Any deviation from these known facts is an affront to democracy.
The GE17 result will matter nothing if the SNP lose a handful of seats, just as it will make no difference if they win all the seats… there is still a democratic mandate for Ref2.
All this talk of UDI or requiring another mandate, is to completely mis-understand the democratic process in Scotland.
The only way that the GE result could be a threat to a second Ref, is if the SNP were to crash to a defeat losing dozens of seats, which is not going to happen. If (as I suspect will be the case), that there will not be any significant enough shift in Scotland, then the Tory’s can no longer stand in the way of a 2nd Ref.
All the talk from people in the Yes movement talking about mandate after mandate is extremely annoying and disapointing.
G H Graham
Nope, it’s not.
John Nicholson on Wright stuff.
As Ronnie says, we don’t lose sight of the upcoming local elections. First we return as many SNP councillors as possible. Then we oust the Tories from Scotland in the GE. The end of the Empire is closer than ever. It looks to me that May and her lot have already given up on Scotland. She is fighting for the last remaining piece of the Empire. Next move is Scotland becoming independent.
Looking forward to catching up with lots of Wingers at Dundee on Saturday. Is there a meeting point at the Fife-end car park?
Why has Corbyn not taken a stance against May’s call for a GE. Labour stands to loose, the countries facing a strengthened Tory Government.
Tory Mp’s are facing court cases. (Thanks to Michael Crick).this could loose them their majority.
Why does Corbyn not halt the election sit back, watch the Tories standing down after court cases. Save the country from a strong Tory majority.
It’s all there for him to win ……. But he’s capitulating.
The SNP need to take a stance on Independence. We’ll never be allowed a referendum if it looks like an SNP win. Mundell’s saying the Brexit process won’t be over for 5 years.
Even if the SNP don’t make Independence an issue in this election Ruthless has.
So Independence will be an issue. Like it or not. The Tories have dictated the grounds of the election.
Got an email from Nicola asking for a donation towards the campaign fund for the upcoming UK General election. If people can give a few pounds, I am sure that she will put it to good use to help us gain a better future for Scotland.
link to snp.org
They even have ‘Scotland’ as a country in the drop down menu!
Quick questions for you…
Do you think the SNP should use this snap election to manoeuvre for a referendum, or full on independence? If the lesser can succeed, are we so sure the greater wouldn’t succeed too?
Why can’t Scotland returning 56 out of 59 MPs from the single party pledged to deliver Independence actually deliver It?
If full SNP representation at Westminster and a popular SNP government in Holyrood with a pro Independence majority is insufficient to deliver Independence, then I struggle to see what greater pinnacle of SNP dominance it is going to take. 59 of 59 is a powerful gesture, but impotent in Westminster.
We are playing this Indy business like the mighty Brazil, but when we get great position with a clear shot at goal we turn into… well .. Scotland. Have we nobody who can get the damned ball in the net? A golden goal in 300 years of extra time.
Surely we have the mandate, compulsion and cause to use Scottish sovereignty to secure Scotland’s place in the European Union? Once we are across that crucial and critical threshold, we have at least made Scotland’s interests safe, and the foibles of democracy amidst layer upon layer of propaganda and delusion cannot deliver any outlandish result which drags Scotland to its doom beside Westminster’s UK?
There was no fair debate about YES 2014, the was no informed debate before Brexit, and the same rabid media who created such circumstance is already trying to re-write the narrative and doctor yet another narrative about positive Brexit and a strong Conservative party in government. IT IS ALL LIES. The Scottish electorate was conned in 2014, the whole UK was conned in 2016. We are leaving it to politicians to provide the opposition, not to any reputable government in Westminster, but to an out of control, unchecked dystopian media doing thoroughly catastrophic damage to the fabric of British society, and its menace is invisible to vast swathes of us. It is a great parasite which thrives on primal anxieties of unsuspecting people.
The vital security for Scotland CAN be made safe. There are other ways beside a UDI, and I’m not so very greatly perturbed about the politics of a binary referendum becoming the politics of ratification for what has come to pass. Nothing will have come to pass except the recognition of a pre existing unassailable and inalienable right of popular Scottish sovereignty which predates the contrived Act of Union.
There is a storm coming. A big one. We are in the calm before that storm. For the love of God, let us tie down the sovereignty thing, bind it, chain it, bury it deep and move a great weight on top of it, so that however bad the coming storm becomes, it cannot touch the primary nucleus of a sovereign Scotland and whatever happens, we at least still have a country and the story of Scotland goes on.
@Juteman 8.49
Cool heads. 🙂
Surely this has to be an out-and-out vote now for Indy? We’ve pussy-footed and gone cap-in-hand with ‘requests’ long enough, we already have mandate after mandate. If SNP (and other Indy parties) campaign solely on Indy platform and get majority, let’s go to UN with that, other countries have done so with less. Enough is enough.
Quentin Quale
the car park at the fife end of the bridge is the meeting point, 11 am
twitter.com/Sinethugcat/status/854286490674876416
Just like to remind folks that Nicola has just come back from the UN,if you think she was there handing out shortbread or that the UN have not had a word with the UK government in private you would be wrong.
The tory press is in full screeching mode to hide the fact she is the weakest PM the UK has ever had and when you consider we had clunking fist that is saying something.
This is not some brilliant strategy but one which has been forced on her if she wishes to be the PM of England after the end of the UK,if she lost the Scottish referendum it would mean she would have to resign.
Always remember the Tories are the self preservation society and will stab each other in the back for power.
I do believe what we witnessed yesterday was May showing us the door,she knows damn fine that her career is in the balance and the only way to save that is to let Scotland go through a GE or we will destroy her just like we have destroyed every yoon politician since 2014.
Take a good look behind you yes movement see the trail of carnage left in our wake it is very impressive and what scares the tories the most is that they are next.
Nothing has changed Breeks.
The Scottish Parliament voted 59 to 49 to hold a 2nd Referendum, should Scotland get torn out of the EU against the democratic wishes of Scotland.
We don’t know what the Brexit deal will be… or if it will even happen yet. If the Tory’s win the GE, then we will obviously be a step closer to knowing the outcome, but will still have to wait until we see what the Brexit negotiations turn out to be.
Nothing has really changed since a month of so ago. The Tory’s are simply and desperately throwing their last roll of the dice with calling the GE.
The SNP manifesto has to be that if they have a majority they have the right and mandate to declare Independence if sufficient threat to the sovereignty of Scotland is initiated at Westminster.
It has to be the right to a referendum and the right to independence if there is sufficient threat or action against Scotland.
May has cleared the way. We now have our Ind.ref2. British state v Scottish nation. Could an opportunity be more evident?
JaceF… no it doesn’t.
The mandate always exists. The SNP should make the manifesto purely about Brexit and reserved matters. This is a UK general election and will not override the mandate granted by the Scottish Parliament.
If you ever want proof of how the press manipulates opinion in the UK compare the newspaper headlines in Scotland and England today.
The ‘i’ has the same main headline but the sub-headings have one subtle difference:
England – “SNP plans to push through Indy ref”
Scotland -“Conservatives now chasing 200 seat lead over Labour”
The Daily Heil/Scottish version:
“England- “Crush the Saboteurs”
Scotland – “Now back me to save our precious Union”
The Daily Express:
England – “Vote for me and I’ll deliver EU exit”
Scotland – “Tory election vote can kill off indy ref 2”
and so it continues…
The biggest lie being peddled today is that any drop in SNP MP numbers shows a decline in support for indy ref 2 and that this election can kill off demand for indy ref 2.
The Scottish Parliament already has the mandate for Indy ref 2, the government has written to the PM requesting a Section 30 order and as yet np reply.
Stephen Gethins was excellent on BBC R4 this am. Took no nonsense.
link to bbc.co.uk
Unfortunately it’s Nick Robinson interviewing.
Interview with T May begins at 2hours 10 minutes ( if you can bear to listen – i fell asleep in the middle!)
Laure Kuensberg at 2 hours 28 mins and 25 seconds
Sarah Smith 2:37:45
and finally, Stephen Gethins 2:40:38
A long listen but you can cherry pick.
The simple reason to refuse to even contemplate a Westminster Election being about independence per se is that the SNP already have a mandate in Holyrood
There’s probably a whole dossier of muck ready to be flung at SNP candidates and stooges ready to fling in it.
Tory, or other unionist, candidates standing in opposition to independence within Scotland should do the job just as well given their rejection might be seen as a further endorsement of independence. Against a second referendum is even better. However given the Lib Dems will stand on an anti-Brexit ticket you get the no single issue reasoning for discounting at least some of their vote. Same for Rapeclause Ruth and her lot who will be tasked with presenting a pro-Brexit obey the mistress case.
Outwith Scotland any unanimity on outright opposition to independence would hold no actually legitimacy in international circles and only undermine the UK’s standing.
Brilliant Breeks!
Just a thought.
If this goes through as expected, the next GE will be in 2022 which is one year AFTER the next Scottish Parliament Election. May, if she wins, could continue to refuse a referendum and force a new mandate through the SPE in 2021. We may not see a Scotref until well after Brexit.
Due to modern conventions and treaties, international law will always seek to enable peaceful nations to protect their identifiable interests from suppression.
By using democratically elected representatives instead of violence and extremism, Scotland has proved that she has survived the Union almost intact.
Despite the 18-19th century war crimes, the ethnic suppression, enormous land theft and constitutional abuse, being fine-tuned over three centuries of empire and a hundred wars..our nation can still hold its head high and strive to live by our values.
Independence for Scotland will do wonders for ‘English identity’ or the lack of it, which is still the ELEPHANT IN THE ROOM. The English aren’t all as right wing as they think. The Tories have been bad for England too.
In politics golden opportunities present but rarely, leaders with the courage to seize them even rarer. Inscrutable May expects the Scots, rugby style, to crack under pressure. Indeed in some the prospect of success and power can induce ‘paralysis’. I trust not in this case.
Re ” GH Graham” at 0910 am ” it’s a contrived effort to prevent Scotland leaving the UK”.
Good post, however with the state media behind her and the current weakness of Labour, it’s highly likely that the Tories will have a comfortable majority ( although the Libdems could see a revival in England). Thereafter, if we ever get to the ” granting” of any section 30 order to coincide with the ” conclusion ” of Brexit negotiations ( and TM is determined to avoid this) , the degree of ” hardness” of Brexit would be proportionate to the ” likelihood of a win for Yes” . If necessary , if the polls moved significantly towards independence over say the next 18 months, then possibly TM would be forced to negotiate single market access or step down ( health reasons) and ” allow” a new PM to ” ditch the hard Brexit”. ( This is why the Tories have carefully avoided actually ” defining their Brexit position”) .By delaying section 30 until after the conclusion of ” Brexit” TM can go for ” hard Brexit”. If Holyrood sanctioned a referendum without section 30 order then TM would probably ignore result and declare it ” illegal” . ( What then? Constitutional crisis/ court cases?).At this stage would our FM go to the country ( Holyrood election) on straight Independence issue??
cast aside yer casting ruins an yer crystal baws the future is here in the casting of the Asparagus , could that daytime TV get any dafter, btw there was ah T in the 1st casting & the ? who’s going to win the election , jist add ah wee bitty butter an it’ll slide doon lovely lol.
If Westminster is ‘the trees’, Scottish independence ‘the wood’. Encouraging loss of sight of the latter to pay attention to the former is a ‘one nation’ distraction ploy, well served by May’s election stunt. We don’t have to play it her way, even though some seem already to be mentally kitted out to do so.
Do we seriously want this independence thing to run through more generations or will we be the generation to finally settle the matter? Bit of a ‘no brainer’?
Just because the UK supreme court wouldnt adopt a non A30 referendum, doesn’t make it illegal.
A majority of Scottish MPs voting in Westminster to accept the result should suffice.
Quentin, parking area at South end of Tay Bridge for 10.30am. Direct access to bridge footpath from here.
See you on Saturday!
Meg merrilees said at 10:05am:-
“…..The Scottish Parliament already has the mandate for Indy ref 2, the government has written to the PM requesting a Section 30 order and as yet np reply.
Stephen Gethins was excellent on BBC R4 this am. Took no nonsense.
link to bbc.co.uk
Unfortunately it’s Nick Robinson interviewing.
Interview with T May begins at 2hours 10 minutes ( if you can bear to listen – i fell asleep in the middle!)
Laure Kuensberg at 2 hours 28 mins and 25 seconds
Sarah Smith 2:37:45
and finally, Stephen Gethins 2:40:38
A long listen but you can cherry pick.”
Thanks,but my question is and will always be,why do the studio presenters in Broadcasting House,London not challenge/cross examine their BBC reporters in North Britain and elsewhere when they stray into slanted/biased reporting?
Mr Gethins was cross-examined—-why not Sarah Smith on her opinions from North Britain?
It’s easy.
STUDIO,FOR EXAMPLE—What proof do you have Sarah Smith?
Don’t prevaricate Sarah–we in London want facts!
—and so on.
These Special Reporters must be challenged by competent,alert Anchors in London,but it’s not happening—-she’s one of us so to speak!
These Special/Scotland Reporters ARE fallible in content and inflection,and must be challenged by BBC HQ who are only too happy to allow these reporters to ramble on with nonsense!
@ Socrates MacSporran: “I can see them abolishing Holyrood…”
Oh christ, not you aswell. Go on, get. GET.
We need a flamethrower in here.
Hamish100 says:
18 April, 2017 at 1:35 pm
“Greens should join with snp to defeat Mundell Carmichael and Murray”
Rock says:
18 April, 2017 at 7:59 pm
“First, the “independence supporting” Greens must immediately announce that they will not put up any candidates at all.
They must not help the Tory viceroy of Scotland to be re-elected as they did last time.
They have no excuses left. The English Greens allowed a free run to the Lib Dems in London for the Tory candidate to be defeated.”
Hamish100 says:
18 April, 2017 at 10:11 pm
“rock is a troll.”
Socrates MacSporran,
“The English love a good fight, they love conquering smaller nations, funny though, they’ve been trying since the 13th century to conquer Scotland, but, even though, they’ve had the help of generations of Proud Scots But – they’ve never managed it.”
Scotland has effectively been a colony of England for the last 310 years.
Pretending otherwise is stupid.
[…] my worries about being a Cassandra. I’m just going to call it like I see it. World’s mad enough as it […]
It seems obvious to me but as far as I can see here is the real reason for their sudden call for a general election…
link to independent.co.uk
Rock 8.31pm. Can’t argue with that.