The Magic Of Vision
While this site remains mothballed, it’s nice to keep a steady trickle of traffic going just in case it ever needs to spring back to life, eg if someone actually interested in independence suddenly somehow becomes leader of the SNP again.
So we thought it might be fun to just briefly link to some old articles as and when they became topical once more, and as luck would have it tomorrow is such an occasion.
Because that’s when the SNP will launch the first of a series of new papers outlining the First Minister’s “vision” of independence by waffling on about how it would be a jolly good thing, in the unlikely event that she ever got off her extremely well-paid arse and achieved it.
The initial one apparently focuses on how other small nations have made a success of independence, an idea pioneered by Wings more than five years ago with a number of articles under the banner of The Too Wee Club.
The Too Wee Club #3 – Luxembourg
The Too Wee Club #4 – Switzerland
The Too Wee Club Redux – The Faroe Islands (by Phantom Power)
(And one which the SNP actually stole the following year and are just reheating now on the assumption that most of their loyal members will have forgotten about it.)
Today we also noticed a fine piece by Robin McAlpine on how the impending brutal austerity squeeze on Scottish Government spending is the result of a trap laid by the UK government in the Scotland Bill that resulted from the Smith Commission of 2015, which devolved tax powers to Holyrood without any powers that would enable the Scottish Government to grow the economy.
Wings opposed the Bill as soon as its details became clear (a controversial position among Yes supporters at the time), pointing out that it comprised exactly the trap that McAlpine describes today. In November 2015 we said:
In February 2016, as negotiations over the Bill went into overtime, we added “We’ve recently struggled to see why the Scottish Government is even bothering to fight for the Scotland Bill powers, which to our eyes are a straightforward political trap.”
(The SNP, meanwhile, was demanding “full fiscal autonomy”, a suicidal proposition which would have made the whole thing much worse for the same reasons, ie providing all the economic downsides of independence with none of the advantages.)
When a deal was finally done we described the new powers as “worthless crumbs” but noted that “the trap designed by the Unionist parties with the Smith Commission has been largely defanged, at least until 2021”. And sure enough, after 2021, here we are.
We look forward to the second paper, perhaps proposing a new national anthem.
.
PS She doesn’t even bother changing her suit to pump out this cobblers now. One of these front pages is from tomorrow, one is from more than five years ago. Without checking the dates, can you be sure which is which?
That cartoon brings back the happy, positive, winning mood of the first couple of years after 2014. Chris’s creation of Hamish was perfect – personifying a spunky, intelligent, street-wise independence supporter i.e. the type we all want to be like! Well, rather like you, Rev! 🙂
From the too wee club #3.
Luxembourg has been a fully independent state for 127 years….. and the country has an openly gay Prime Minister.
Unionists believe these achievements to be completely beyond the ability of the people of Scotland.
Oor Nicola will prove them wrong
A pretty prescient Alan Bissett in Dec 2013… Almost a year pre IndyRef and now almost a decade ago…
3 mins long
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_scVW5BE29U
Stu. This page struggles (as in utterly fails) to load on Safari on my Mac and on my iPhone.
Chrome is fine. So I’m not deprived the excellent content. 😉
But something killing it on Safari.
I can’t believe how stupid I was. Not about Smith. That was evident when she signed up to that load of keech & slabber more Tory than the Tories!! But that I believed Sturgeon for so long after that. I wish Salmond had stuck around until at least the ‘Everything including the kitchen sink to stay’ had been thrashed out. He’d never have agreed to powers over road signs & this poisoned chalice. No voters can’t say they weren’t warned this would happen. Whitford made it her mission in the build up to indy ref! Re ‘You want more powers? Then you pay more taxes’ NHS next ‘You want more *free* stuff – then you pay more taxes’
Harking back to 2014 The indy boys had it right! *Fk everything now’ ‘Lets rock & roll’ Let them reap what they’ve sown. Take all the jobs away. These fatties think Sunak is a God that’ll save them. They want Tory? Let them have it. IMO.
Rip up Scotland Act followed by Scotland bill. Fk rules! & we’ve tried being nice! Time for Sturgeon to take off her idiot mitts & grow a spine! It’s the only way forward.
Completely unaware of the consequence so called tax powers would land them in.
They were warned about it right here and we know Wings was their most frequently read site
If they couldn’t fathom the ramifications would anyone normal consult as many economists as possible without a vested interest?
I haven’t heard a word from SNP highlighting how the act of the Union pledged that there would never be a trade advantage given to one country over another.
Well it’s always been advantage England but now Brexit tears up the Act by allowing N Ireland the right to stay in the EU and trade there.
Although Scotland and N Ireland both voted remain Scotland is the one denied the opportunity.
As Boris and Westminster go to break international law breaking the protocol it is not in the best interest of the peoples of N.I. as their economy is booming while the other U.K. countries go into recession.
The Tories cannot afford to let us see NI flourishing within the EU while Bojo’s pathetic global trade deals fall flat on their face.
In the last Stormont elections 60% voted for parties who are happy with things as they are will be denied democracy as people move to look after the Half Crown In their pocket before bowing to the Crown in London.
Will this now make the public forget the criminal and immoral acts of party gate?
Will Prince Andrew be sent over there to live or Rwanda?
I’m beginning to realise Scotland won’t ever be independent.
Yes, other small countries do it, even Cameron admitted that & the Nawbags soon shut up trying to punt the too wee myth.
We won’t be indy until Scotland’s natural resources (cash cows) run dry & the yanks fk off with their nukes.
Sadly, I don’t see that happening anytime soon.
I’m so pissed off right now at the chances missed.
Going off topic early here…
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-scotland-politics-61785551
I would make a joke, but there’s nothing funny here.
In “other places” there is a weird, triumphalist crowing as if to say “ha – take that, haters – Nikki has delivered … ”
She is painting herself into a corner (Lucy and the football) – eventually the public have to notice – but I expect she can manufacture some reason not to proceed – monkeypox?
Having an indyref and throwing it, is also possible.
Her “vision” for an indy Scotland will he her as Sally Bowles and Harvie as the MC.
Now might be the time to start drinking again.
I hope that Scotland will be independent.
However
I am wondering what catastrophe is going to befall which will put the business on hold. I’m thinking Ireland may provide her with some breathing space but I sense something else perhaps less expected …
I feel the excitement and anger of the prospect of an indie ref has diminished.
If Sturgeon came out with that’s the treaty gone or some such chat I would be up for it again.
Anyway did we all enjoy the Celebrations of HRH The Queens jubilee.
I thought it was depressing and a touch North Korean for my liking.
I guessed right about which headline is this month’s new launch
The stress of keeping the brakes on independence & having ago at her former mentor has not been kind to her
@ Douglas at 11:28 pm
“has not been kind to her”
Karma ?? possibly
one could say deservedly so
She is Dorian Gray’s picture “warped and twisted”
And still the faithful worship her
Late news Dreghorn Badger seek lost erse
Can always rely on Wings to clear the air with facts. Tomorrow’s papers would sell more if they actually promoted the truth, ie:
STURGEON’S HIGHLY PAID ADVISORS TRAWL WOS FOR IDEAS
As soon as i read about this earlier tonight, on the BBC text (Scotland) page i got a very familiar waft of rancid Sturgeon. It came across as if this announcement came about as a result of a news programme interview (i don’t know how it was announced). But i would have thought *anyone* announcing such an important event would have called a press conference.
Seems that every time we peasants start to talk about boycotting UK General Elections to get rid of the pension parasites someone in the SNP pops up with some form of indy push. The last time, just several weeks ago, it was the turn of a couple of those parasites, ‘Pension Pete & Blackman (I think!). Now it’s the skank herself. Now we know for sure it’s bullshit.
The SNP’s infinity mirror where the same statements and arguments are repeated over and over until they trail off into the distance with ever decreasing resolution, the image itself the reflection of a moribund still life tableau!
Effigy says:
“I haven’t heard a word from SNP highlighting how the act of the Union pledged that there would never be a trade advantage given to one country over another.
“Well it’s always been advantage England but now Brexit tears up the Act by allowing N Ireland the right to stay in the EU and trade there.
“Although Scotland and N Ireland both voted remain Scotland is the one denied the opportunity.”
Excellent comment, Effigy. It was clear to everyone except Nicola Sturgeon that Brexit unequivocally broke the Treaty of Union. By her inaction and capitulation she has allowed England to economically cripple Scotland while continuing to extract the wealth of our nation. It is the modern equivalent of the English Army invading and burning our crops and our towns and cities to the ground – and Nicola Sturgeon did nothing to prevent it from happening.
https://salvo.scot
It’s time to use Scottish law, our Claim of Right (as recognised by the English and their parliament (WM)) and our Constitution to choose HOW we are goverened. It’s all codified in the ("Tractor" - Ed)s treaty of 1707 anyway 😉
No #sec30. No Bojo owned electoral commission, no (Jim’ll’fix it) postal vote “validation” in England.
https://www.eventbrite.com/e/salvo-launch-tickets-359545719927
I think Rev Stu you WOULD be a welcome personage at the event on July 3rd. You’ve seen through the SNP-WM manure-veil since day 1.
Just a thought.
Maybe it’s me, but the immediate problem isn’t what’s in these “papers”, but the hollowness I feel inside that the Scottish Government is merely at the stage of writing “papers”. Is that it? Eight years. EIGHT YEARS! And that’s “it”?
Independence was there for the taking in 2016, the great objective physically delivered, Scotland released from Purgatory, but after royally screwing that up, and after a further long and bleak 6 years, we’re given “papers” telling us the SNP’s half baked thinking; the paltry equivalent of a Post-It note on the fridge, “Your Independence is in the oven. Reheat it yourself. I’m off to London to visit the Queen”. Literally.
Why are we even being drip fed this info? To keep us in suspense while you build to a crescendo of mediocre drivel? Maybe most of it hasn’t been written yet? Or because a seminal feature of Sturgeon’s gaslighting campaign is to squander away the months until they’re years, while the SNP outsuckles London to gorge themselves on Scotland’s resources?
Don’t bother resigning Sturgeon, just go. Vamoose! Fk off! Vacate your office and get the hell out of Dodge.
Eight years from now, you have my solemn word on it, I promise, we’ll put a single civil servant with a shoestring budget on an investigation to discover what happened to you, and they can write us all a fascinating story about it, – pretty much the same quid pro quo effort as you’ve put into Scotland’s Independence.
https://12ft.io/proxy?q=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.thenational.scot%2Fpolitics%2F20207252.lucky-nicola-sturgeon-leader-promotes-reading%2F
AAAAAAAAAARRRRRGGGGGHHHHH!!!!
Please excuse me while go and shut my fingers in a door or something.
She said on the BBC last night the two issues we have is 1 decomcracy and 2 lawful, for the fist time she was being honest on 1 UK isn’t a democracy and 2 if a ref was held it wouldn’t be lawful and then she went back to lying again when asked about the Ref Bill and once again she stated like she did in January 2022 to the Sophy Ridge show, it would be interduced in a couple of weeks.
Watching sturgeon on the BBC last night was so depressing, she had just started the firing gun on indyref2 so why wasn’t she excited about doing it. because it is never going to happen.
Curious to see what the currency paper says. If it is sterlingisation, we will know the SNP aren’t serious about indy. If our own currency – then someone has been listening!
Also – I always thought the independence process would feel empowering, but there is something remote and unengaging about all this.
If a Ref wouldn’t be lawful then why are we going to hold one when there is so many alternative routes to Independence?
Looks like Pantomime Season has started early this year .
LOOK OUT ! she’s behind you , oh no she isn’t , oh no ……
She isn’t .
Cinderella won’t be going to the ball , her glass slippers shattered from 8 years of jogging on the spot
The Ugly Trans Sisters have tuned the station to Weird FM
One day her Prince will come . To carry her off to the sanctuary of a slot in the Globalist Olympus .
From which elevated position she can continue to piss all over Scotland
@ Craig P
She’ll be wanting to continue to use the monopoly pound its well used but not usable in England or the world, I don’t believe the UK would object, after all we’re already using it.
One of the problems I felt with the 2014 referendum was it appeared as a 1 man band under wizard Salmond with the semi-subservient Nipper diving round his ankles.
I do feel that all that’s going to happen this time is a lot of talking by Nikla without saying anything. It’s not like there’s a backroom full of statespersons in waiting.
Many are so heartily sick of her I’d anticipate mass disinterest and No campaigns just to be rid of her.
A bit like Breeks says, it’s all fanfare and no substance as there’s been no dialogue or preparation.
Anyway she all but announced defeat in the courts as the get-out.
In my head, post Indy, Scotland will pass through the looking glass… Using Sterling as our currency will not produce stability, but quite the reverse.
But England would be through the looking glass too, because suddenly they’ll be desperate for Scotland to retain Sterling, and have Scotland’s resources to shore up the £.
I’m changing my position on that. Back in 2014 I thought Sterling was ok as a transitional currency to shore up England’s economy while the dust settled, and counterbalance a strong Scottish currency killing off our Exports.
I still think there is some merit to that transitional phase, but I am being persuaded that a Scottish Currency will be better for Scotland.
I retain concern however that a Scottish currency with Scotland’s Independence and resources will skyrocket and become a very hard currency, and our Exporters, our Whisky, foodstuffs etc will be priced out of their markets. The cost of purchasing Scotland’s export goods will become prohibitive.
So what should Scotland do to prevent our own currency overcooking? Well, it could consider a share of UK debt, (and I think that’s correct as Constitutional equals), or peg itself to the Euro.
I recall what happened to Sterling when it joined the ERM, and the same profiteering sharks will smell blood in the water if Scotland is reckless with it’s currency choices and going it alone.
I’m not an economist, but I feel more relaxed about a Scottish currency that is somehow pegged to a much larger currency, with Euro perhaps being the most likely. The sharks wouldn’t be able to isolate Scotland from the Euro shoal, as they might with Scotland’s own currency.
Wings Over Scotland wasn’t alone in warning of the British state’s malign intent. In 2016 I wrote,
“The fiscal framework is crucial to the entire Scotland Bill. We know that the legislation is a mess cobbled together more as a means of making life difficult for the SNP administration than with the interests of Scotland’s people in mind. John Swinney will be the one who has to find a path through the minefield of fiscal traps that the Scotland Bill will lay. It makes perfect sense that he would seek to make this task slightly easier by ensuring that the fiscal framework does not support the malicious intent of the Bill itself.”
And this a couple of years later,
“Devolution itself, initially intended as a device to kill the cause of independence “stone dead”, latterly has been reshaped as a political and economic weapon wielded against the SNP administration.
Powers over such things as taxation and welfare have been transferred to the Scottish Parliament, not for the purpose of further empowering the Parliament or improving Scotland’s governance or enhancing our democracy, but as a complex of political and fiscal traps designed to make life as difficult as possible for the Scottish Government and force the SNP administration into implementing unpopular policies. The British parties would then reap the benefit of the SNP’s declining electoral fortunes without the need to improve their own appeal to voters.”
There is at least one very good reason for harking back to such comments. And it is not, as some will shallow-mindedly assume, simply to lob grenades at Sturgeon and the SNP. One of the defences that will surely be deployed by Sturgeon’s army of sycophantic loyalists and obsequious apologists is the claim that there was no way she or anybody else could have known what the future would bring. Stu Campbell holes that argument below the waterline. And my own articles demonstrate that he was not alone in identifying the malicious purposes of the British establishment.
If others can see, why not Sturgeon? I am persuaded that it is a matter of mindset – the individual’s starting point for considering events and developments. This morning, Angus Macneil MP Tweeted the following quote from a BBC News piece.
“Ms Sturgeon acknowledged that whether Holyrood had the power to legislate for a referendum was contested, and had not yet been tested in the courts.”
My response I think makes the point about mindset.
“That is NOT what must be tested in court! What must be tested is whether the British state has the rightful authority to deny our right of self-determination. It’s a question of mindset. Sturgeon’s is NOT what it should be.”
I had hoped it would be possible to ‘modify’ that mindset. I still must cling to that hope. Because Scotland’s cause depends on Sturgeon waking the fuck up!
Mr Bell she ain’t going to wake up. The half hearted announcement of yesterday was merely to counteract Alex Salmond waiting for the starting gun.The difference in desire was plain to see and hear.
Meanwhile we are still waiting to find out where 600,000 quid is secreted for the mythical indy ref 2.
And you are right , no effort has been made in eight years to organise currency , transport links ,infrastructure or anything that a small successful country has in place – utterly shameful.
Covid came along to save both she and Johnson from doing anything other than moan on and finger wag – granted only one of that pair played by the rules of covid prevention. For the first time in my life I agreed with a certain drunken lord ,Ms Sturgeon was getting tremendous TV time over covid and it shouldn’t have been her job but that of the Health secretary or the MoH.
With the lack of enthusiasm “oor Nic” showed discussing Independence during the National video interview, seems strange the great plan for the future is getting launched a few days later. You think she might have been excited about all these upcoming announcements about her vision … or did the vision only get created after the car crash National interview ???
We all know this is just another can kicking exercise to keep the hard of thinking in line, my guess is the timing of this particular one is with the hope of an early UK general election (as the Tories Brexit Britain plan rapidly falls apart). Then she has another excuse for further delay and can jump on the “one more mandate” merry go round yet again … and of course any mention of using that GE as a plebiscite will be “undemocratic”, “divisive”, “playing to Alba hate”, “what the Tories want”, etc, etc.
La Sturgeon loves the cheap theatrics of the grand unveiling. Will this, one hopes, final performance of our local Salomé (plus catamites) reveal nothing more than the sterile prancings of superannuated political eunuchs?
You get the feeling that Ms Sturgeon’s starting gun is one of the comic ones that instead of firing has the word BANG! written on a piece of cloth.
Shes a false prophet. Just like Paul Simon.
I await release of ‘the papers’ today concerning
currency
tax and spend
defence
social security and pensions
and EU membership and trade
I am hoping for some honesty from the SG but cannot help feeling that more questions will be raised rather than answered. Clarity on the way forward is desperately needed.
After eight years i think we have got to the point where we no longer think that the snp in situ are not working for westminster alone.
The mess she makes of every thing she touches on behalf of Scotland rings alarm bells should we ever achieve a referendum if she and her servants were ever in the position to be in charge of negotiations on ending the union,
I think she would sell us short every time,
Some of us have reached the point in thinking that soon westminster will say yes to a referendum as they become more aware of restless natives talking of alternatives,
From their point of view it is wiser to be in control of a referendum, the election control, and maintaining the oppotunity to be the vote counter of results.
I personally feel that the longed for referendum on Scottish independence when it comes will be in the hands of corruption, as indicated once before.
I have had time to read those signs from 2014 during NS long route to independence.
I have had time to wonder why a sovereign Scottish Vote on independence is alway run under Westminsters control and rules,
Why our votes were transported miles after our vote, in this modern day and age when they could be counted at the voting stations with the public as witnesses.
As it used to be,
We all remember how ruthie viewed results,
We all remember stories confirmed and unconfirmed of votes in ditches and bins,
We all remember voting franchises being in the hands of unionist.
Do I have faith in a second British franchise in a vote for Scottish independence now I have had time to review the hiccups of 2014 referendum and the interference.
NO.
It is Scotlands choice, it should not be run by Unionist.
Dorothy Devine says:
14 June, 2022 at 9:00 am
You get the feeling that Ms Sturgeon’s starting gun is one of the comic ones that instead of firing has the word BANG! written on a piece of cloth.
That is a brilliant metaphor.
My nightmare is that Sturgeon and Gove are waiting until enough potential No voters have arrived from the south so that we can’t possibly win a referendum. They will cheat anyway, just like the last time.
When they are ready then an S30 will be granted, we will lose the vote, and Gove or whoever is PM will make an announcement that the Scottish people clearly don’t want independence. We will then be told that the Treaty of Union is outdated and will be replaced by a new British treaty, since we are clearly all one nation.
Or maybe it’s just me. I always did have an overactive imagination. ????????
Sorry about the question marks. I don’t know how that happened.
I am not convinced of a rushed referendum which will I believe be “granted ” at the wrong time, with inadequate time to prepare and campaign, with an SNP uncommitted to winning, to a hostile UK press, and where the apparatus of independence campaigning groups have been dismantled and or taken over, and where seasoned campaigners have been subject to absolutely brutal police prosecution and character assassination have been the MO of the government these last five years.
Of course if Sturgeon and her Westminster establishment push the button then the course will be set.
That presents a huge challenge because to lose would be a catastrophic set back.
But Alex Salmond for one is I believe well attuned to this as are others and if we are presented with an ill timed, ill franchised referendum we need to ensure that our movement is motivated to the extent possible and or that Sturgeon and her Westminster backers feet are held to the fire to expose the inherent rigging of a faux referendum designed to fail.
And so the message is for all of us committed to independence is that we must keep a very close eye and on Sturgeon and challenge positively everything that she tries to do.
Independence can be won and we need to to be so wary of not walking into an indy trap.
A referendum on Scotland becoming independent run and operated by the very opposition not wanting Scotland to be independent,
Is like going to war after you have handed all you artillery to your enemy.
Where is the momentum? Where is the excitement? Where is the grand launch? This has lose written all over it…
It all feels like a dress rehearsal for a flop par excellence. I cannot believe that anyone can believe that any kind of referendum is possible now. Even if it is not refused – and it will be because no challenge will be made to Westminster’s so-called ‘right’ to refuse, merely a challenge (perhaps?) to try and establish that Holyrood has the power to hold one – and that will be a total waste of money. If one is held without Westminster’s express permission, it will be unwinnable because both the British State and the British parties in Scotland will hole it below the water line.
Alec Salmond is beginning to play the short game on the way to the long game. Sturgeon is simply not up to standing up to either Westminster or the British State, and the suspicion remains that she is compromised in any case. She is making all the right moves just now, but she must know that she cannot succeed if she keeps on this particular path. What we will get is an order of play that has been written on the back of a fag packet and it will sink independence for a very long time or bring the whole debacle to a head and point the way forward without the SNP/SGP leadership cohorts, who are both poison to the Scottish body politic just as the British parties are. To my mind, this is the only way forward, and it is to be hoped for fervently, that the SNP membership start to see the truth instead of some distorted reality that has never existed. I won’t be holding my breath, though.
I also believe we should campaign anyway as if this was real, even while we know it is not so that, when the time comes, we can shunt seamlessly on to a different set of tracks.
Chas,
You forgot to add the winning numbers for the Euromillions to your list.
Déja vu doesn’t even begin to describe the feeling when I hear the words ‘vision for an independent Scotland’. Harks back to when I was a teacher and our director of education used to talk about his ‘vision’ for schools. We used to have a collective laugh in the staffroom when he had yet another ‘vision’. They seemed to come with increasing frequency and had about as much impact as Nicola’s!
https://twitter.com/scotgov
Tune in here, 3 to 4 mins…
Don’t have anything throwable in your hands.
Breastplate
It is not my list!
Ms Sturgeon has indicated that she will be outlining a ‘Scene Setter’ in those particular areas. What that actually means we will have to wait and see.
Uncertainty is not wanted at this time but…………!
Breeks says:
14 June, 2022 at 10:58 am
https://twitter.com/scotgov
Tune in here, 3 to 4 mins…
Sorry, it’s still going. I have the oddest feeling I might have fallen asleep.
“Ken says:
13 June, 2022 at 10:22 pm
Stu. This page struggles (as in utterly fails) to load on Safari on my Mac and on my iPhone.
Chrome is fine. So I’m not deprived the excellent content.”
There was some oddness going on with Firefox last night too, but all seems fine now.
@ Dan at 10.21: the Alan Bissett speech in 2013 is brilliant. He saw exactly what has happened.
Now is Alan Bissett busy at the moment reading the runes or can he work/is he working to get us out of this hole?
I’m using Safari on ipod Derek, not even a hint of a problem. It might be your device.
Do you have space on your iPod? The other thing is possibly empty your cache memory, but beware that will wipe a lot of stuff your device remembers like the last pages you visited, and you’ll probably have to retype passwords to get in to stuff. Quick disclaimer, I don’t know what I’m talking about. Don’t listen to me.
I know that BJ (or his replacement) is expected to refuse a Scottish indy referendum, thus making a nice exit ramp for NS to cry foul and campaign for the next election on the basis that she will keep on fighting. It’s highly unlikely, but if I was the PM, I would call her bluff and agree to a referendum. They aren’t in a position to win it – can you imagine the look on her face if it happened? Priceless lol. However, politicians (on all sides) being the cowardly comfy seat-occupiers that they are, a PM is almost certainly going to refuse, and the FM will have her nice little exit ramp to let us down gently. I guess 45-50% current YES is just too close to call. Man, anyone who can’t see this coming has been sitting with their eyes closed for the past eight years. No matter, we will get the chance to vote for the SNP (again and again).
Luigi says:
14 June, 2022 at 11:49 am
…. It’s highly unlikely, but if I was the PM, I would call her bluff and agree to a referendum. They aren’t in a position to win it – can you imagine the look on her face if it happened?
That’s exactly what he will do Luigi, cave in, but wait until the last minute, then make giving Section 30 Agreement conditional, Westminster will demand it sets the voting franchize, question, narrative and tone of debate and probably make the conclusion non-binding and disregard Scotland’s Constitutional sovereignty completely.
Then when Sturgeon grumbles, she’ll be roasted alive in the BritNat Media as an anti-democratic whinger trying to “fix” the referendum.
This has been the ambush Sturgeon has set upon herself since 2014 draped with all her “gold standard democracy” bullshit, – and she still hasn’t seen it yet.
Chas,
Not many people like uncertainty but when dealing with the future that is all one can be assured of.
I understand that people want the answers to everything but only if it comes with caveats, those caveats are that it must not alter their world view, comforting lies are much preferred to the ugly truth for too many.
Regarding all the things on your list Chas, I would like you to accept although you may find the items important, they aren’t anywhere near as important than who makes the decisions about the items on your list.
Because that’s what really matters in the end.
Should one country allow another country to make all its important decisions for it?
Will that other country make the best decisions for its neighbour?
Will it prioritise the needs of its neighbour over its own?
I agree with Peter A. Bell when he says “ you can’t answer a constitutional question with a calculator”.
Should Scotland be an independent country?
There is only one logical answer to that and we don’t need to weigh up what currency we might use.
Breeks says: 14 June, 2022 at 5:12 am
If you look at the book at the bottom left hand side of picture which is on prominent display, it has a tittle of Read Woke and has a clenched fist.
I wonder if this site is linked to it?
https://www.readwokesouthayrshire.co.uk/
Breeks @ 11:28,
I listened to some of it but it’s the same old shit.
Gold standard referendum, ask Boris for S30, no shortcuts to independence and definitely no ‘wildcat’ referendum.
She doesn’t actually say those words this time but there is no ambiguity.
Regarding asking Boris, she’s not even going as far as asking him, she is going to let him know that she’s all ears when the time comes for Boris to ask her.
Things haven’t moved one fucking inch since the last time she was dismissing other routes to independence.
Paul Kavanagh will be along to tell us that the embarrassometer is nearly at breaking point with Boris and he’s about to cave in to the non requests for a Section30.
Ffs just doesn’t quite cover it.
Consider the visionaries that will have put this magnum opus together:
Sturgeon
Blackface, chief shepherd
Wishart
NO CHERRY!
Shirley you can’t be serious
John Winnae
I’ms a-useless
Keith Brownnose
Robberson
I’m thinking it’ll have been printed by Ladybird.
The only way forward now IMO is a plebiscite election. The problem is I don’t think there are any political leaders out there quite brave enough to go for it.
Breastplate
I repeat-It is not my list!!
The items the SG placed on THEIR list are maybe not important to you but I suspect, that to millions of fellow Scots, they are. World views are irrelevant. People are concerned about what Independence would mean to them on a daily basis and in particular if they would be better or worse off. In reality who makes the decisions does not come into it. If the choice was better off under a Westminster Government or poorer under Holyrood rule what do you think the choice would be? I am repeating myself again but currently 55% of eligible Scottish voters do not want Independence. What is going to make them change their minds? Take all the patriotic chest beating out of the equation. The simple answer is MONEY.
I am a supporter of Independence what ever you and others on here may think, but I refuse to adopt the rather simplistic mantra that ‘all will be fine’ if it is achieved.
To my mind the SG are economically and financially clueless. Hospitals, ferries, airports, court cases etc amply demonstrate this point. What will change in their basic abilities when Independence is achieved? Do not think for one minute the current SNP incompetents will walk away-job done. The gravy train will have to continue. The fight between the Westminster SNP and the Holyrood SNP would be fascinating however as they jostle and back stab each other for positions.
Emotions run high in politics and possibly higher in Scottish politics because of perceived injustices, rightly or wrongly over the years.. There are not many of us in Scotland who want to be governed by the elite establishment in London but we need to decide the way forward with our heads and not our hearts. Far too many of the rabid Independence supporters are unable to do this.
In terms of documents and arguments currently in production, I’m really looking forward to the SSRG Conference and SALVO Launch happening in a few weeks.
https://scottishsovereigntyresearchgroup.org/
https://www.salvo.scot/
And this, from Alex Salmond, is a breath of fresh air too…
https://yoursforscotlandcom.wordpress.com/2022/06/14/alex-salmond-wants-the-claim-of-right-front-and-centre/
How I wish with every fibre that Sovereignty had been central to the 2014 YES Campaign, but finally, we’re maybe getting there.
We shall see whether Sturgeon’s papers are worth a sook in due course, but with the Growth Commission etc, I have my doubts. Again, there are better strategies out there.
The existential matter of Scottish independence has surely moved on from eternal inquisitions on treaties, section 30, how appalling the sturgeonite SNP is to one of how seriously Scots want to dissolve the chains that bind to the rapidly decaying British «project».
The getting independence on a plate or velvet divorce scenario is highly unlikely. England/Uk will clutch with claws that will need to be hacked off.
Messy, potentially bloody but that is the normative price of freedom, there is never a discount.
Yours to get/seize, should you decide to accept a measure of trauma and «inconvenience».
Otherwise, go on dreaming of days of yore old Scotia and cry into your favourite social media. In this diamond hard world dreams and tears are remarkably cheap and readily discounted by the puppet masters.
Chas,
“The simple answer is MONEY”
Wrong, wrong, wrong.
But perhaps I’m being unkind.
If it’s simply about money, you’ll be able to tell me at what point of National debt should Britain hand the reins to France or perhaps Ukraine would be better off having its neighbour make its decisions, I mean it’s going to be saddled with astronomical debt?
Noway is quite affluent, shouldn’t they make decisions for Denmark?
No, of course it’s not your list, it’s somebody else’s.
I’m merely poking a stick at your world view that you cling to like a comfort blanket and you find it disconcerting.
People don’t like their world view questioned, especially when they don’t even understand it because if they don’t understand it, how can they reasonably defend it?
The truth is Chas, the vast amount of people have an opinion given to them depending on what newspaper they buy or what tv channel they watch, there are very few people that form their own thoughts but of course, no doubt you are one of the very few who do.
The bets will be pouring in now then Stu – you must be quaking in your shoes. All those folk absolutely convinced it will happen they are sure to take up your bet. Wonder what date they are going to kill of auld betty or whether it will be a UK GE that puts the kibosh on her 2023 plans. Of course – she could let it happen, if her intention is to fail.
Chas,
“The simple answer is MONEY”
Wrong, wrong, wrong.
But perhaps I’m being unkind.
If it’s simply about money, you’ll be able to tell me at what point of National debt should Britain hand the reins to France or perhaps the yellow and blue country would be better off having its neighbour make its decisions, I mean it’s going to be saddled with astronomical debt?
Noway is quite affluent, shouldn’t they make decisions for Denmark?
No, of course it’s not your list, it’s somebody else’s.
I’m merely poking a stick at your world view that you cling to like a comfort blanket and you find it disconcerting.
People don’t like their world view questioned, especially when they don’t even understand it because if they don’t understand it, how can they reasonably defend it?
The truth is Chas, the vast amount of people have an opinion given to them depending on what newspaper they buy or what tv channel they watch, there are very few people that form their own thoughts but of course, no doubt you are one of the very few who do.
Dorothy Devine says:
14 June, 2022 at 9:00 am
“You get the feeling that Ms Sturgeon’s starting gun is one of the comic ones that instead of firing has the word BANG! written on a piece of cloth.”
I can just see that as a Chris Cairns cartoon.
@ Peter A Bell, re ‘What must be tested is whether the British state has the rightful authority to deny our right of self-determination. It’s a question of mindset. Sturgeon’s is NOT what it should be.”
I had hoped it would be possible to ‘modify’ that mindset. I still must cling to that hope. Because Scotland’s cause depends on Sturgeon waking the fuck up!’
After all that Nikla has done, and all that she has not done, at the very least she is not able….
It is not her who needs to wake up. That onus is very much on Indy supporters and voters.
If the leader of the Indy movement is needing to have her mindset fixed, at this crucial stage in the game, then we are doomed from the outset… for an Indy blogger to be advocating that we concentrate on fixing her ‘mindset’ is really selling us old rope.
There are so many things we cannot control in this struggle for Indy, resources, media, etc… the one thing that we absolutely can control, and bring to the party, is our mindset. For Nikla to not do so is unforgivable. For anyone arguing that we should concentrate our energies on changing her mindset, only highlights in the clearest possible way, that she is not fullfilling the role of leader (for this cause) in even the most basic manner.
Lorna Campbell says:
14 June, 2022 at 10:41 am
“and it is to be hoped for fervently, that the SNP membership start to see the truth instead of some distorted reality that has never existed. I won’t be holding my breath, though.”
Most of the ones I know still believe her and I’m “just being negative”
“I also believe we should campaign anyway as if this was real, even while we know it is not so that, when the time comes, we can shunt seamlessly on to a different set of tracks.”
I’ve campaigned from 2014 right up until Covid when I had to isolate for the sake of a relative. I might have stopped then anyway after the awful speech of Jan 2020 when I finally had to admit that Stu had been right all along and that we’d been duped. I really don’t feel like campaigning just to have the piss taken out of me again and I would have genuine difficulty in overcoming the inevitable questions re Sturgeon and her GRA. Maybe once there is an actual date announced I might feel differently – if I’m still even alive then. Meanwhile I think there might be a period of royal mourning, a coronation and a GE to come well before a date is even considered.
Wee Chid , what a great idea – I would love that.
Never underestimate the First Ministers commitment to Independence
Breastplate says:
14 June, 2022 at 2:00 pm
Chas,
“The simple answer is MONEY”
Wrong, wrong, wrong.
But perhaps I’m being unkind.
If it’s simply about money, you’ll be able to tell me at what point of National debt should Britain hand the reins to France or perhaps the yellow and blue country would be better off having its neighbour make its decisions, I mean it’s going to be saddled with astronomical debt?
Noway is quite affluent, shouldn’t they make decisions for Denmark?
That you think you have made any sort of coherent point is beyond parody.
To compare the straw men of the UK being taken over by France, a certain country currently invaded by an imperialist neighbour, or one independent Scandinavian country calling the shots over another for reasons of wealth, to the requirements of getting enough people within Scotland to agree to leaving the UK, is complete gibberish.
The point Chas made is one that has been reiterated in a variety of scenarios time and time again – the fact that in a democracy the vast majority of people will vote for and campaign in favour of whatever proposal puts them in a financially better off position – or at least doesn’t make them any worse off than before – because flags and sentiments and “The People Are Sovereign” doesn’t put food on the table, pay the heating bills or put a roof over your head.
I’m merely poking a stick at your world view that you cling to like a comfort blanket and you find it disconcerting.
People don’t like their world view questioned, especially when they don’t even understand it because if they don’t understand it, how can they reasonably defend it?
Being patronising to Chas doesn’t make your point any more valid. Emily Thornberry tends to use that a lot, which is why the Tories love it so much every time she opens her mouth – another point up in the opinion polls.
The truth is Chas, the vast amount of people have an opinion given to them depending on what newspaper they buy or what tv channel they watch, there are very few people that form their own thoughts but of course, no doubt you are one of the very few who do.
Unbelievable. You attack Chas for not liking having his world view questioned, moments later sneer that the vast majority of the population just believe what the Fourth Estate says with the clear hint you are lumping Chas in with that category – straight out of the conspiracy theorist playbook that the masses are all brainwashed by the media to their bidding. If you have that bleak a view of the swinish multitudes, what’s the point campaigning for independence at all with such loaded dice? So you can pat yourself in the back in public for being one of the special ones who took the red pill?
Breastplate
You are correct. I am wrong. Money does not come into the equation at all!
People will flock to vote for Independence, not caring that they could be less well off, but safe in the knowledge that our Government, which will be SNP, are making all the decisions for themselves which end up making the populace poorer. I don’t think that I would be alone in finding this a wee bit disconcerting!
‘The truth is Chas, the vast amount of people have an opinion given to them depending on what newspaper they buy or what tv channel they watch, there are very few people that form their own thoughts’.
I actually agree, to a certain extent with your statement above hence the apparent popularity of the SNP. Bear in mind, of course that this popularity only extends to about 30/35% of the population.
No doubt you are one of the very few who is not influenced by any outside means.
Maybe you should form your own Political Party? As money really does not count a catchy slogan could be ‘Vote For Us-We Will Make You Poorer! But the wrong decisions made were ours!
The truth is Breastplate people will vote for who they trust and who is more likely to make them better off.
Money does not talk………..it roars and shouts.
Breeks says on 14 June, 2022 at 10:58 am
https://twitter.com/scotgov
“Tune in here, 3 to 4 mins… Don’t have anything throwable in your hands.”
Thanks, Breeks! I started off very excited but then Sturgeon had to enter the bloody room so i switched off. And that was without the sound.
No idea why i’m not getting sound btw, was just listening to music only minutes prior to seeing your link so it’s not a problem at my end. At least i don’t think it is.
Chas says:
14 June, 2022 at 3:41 pm
Breastplate
You are correct. I am wrong. Money does not come into the equation at all!
People will flock to vote for Independence, not caring that they could be less well off, but safe in the knowledge that our Government, which will be SNP, are making all the decisions for themselves which end up making the populace poorer. I don’t think that I would be alone in finding this a wee bit disconcerting!
Chas faithfully campaigning for ‘Better Together’.
Pamela needs to have words he’s letting his side down.
He predicts with total certainty that the SNP will be in power in iScotland. Not sure if he means for the first five years or forever.
He claims money is very important even although 45% voted for independence in 2014 without knowing which currency we would use.
He doesn’t ask if voting NO will make us poorer.
The big difference between Chas & his fellow Unionist & independence supporters is faith. Chas has zero faith in the people of Scotland. The cringe is strong in Chas.
The world has moved on considerably since 2014,
We can hold on to memories good or bad.
However It Would be unwise to hit our heads against those same brick walls as we did back then,
And expect a different result.
The devolved government in Scotland runs as a branch of the English government the same way as Banks and their branches.
And I mean English Government, Not British.
When one half of the treaty acts as sole arbitrator on reserved matters for itself,
It holds sharing equally back from Scotland and the treaty of the union.
Making Scotland subsidiary or branch office,
There is no devolved government in England.
So the British parliament acted /is acting on behalf of England, not Britain.
The british parliament also acted as a English parliament solely when it passed legislation for a devolved Government into Scotland.
The vote in Scotland put to Scotland on wether to have a devolved Government , was again issued with permission by the British Government acting as Sovereign English Parliament,
The clauses and conditions that came with of running the devolved Parliament in Scotland were stipulated by the British Parliament acting as a Sovereign Parliament over Scotland Constitution that is wrote into the Treaty of the union.
So when the British Parliament decides whether the or not Scotland can have referendums or votes,
Is it acting as a Sovereign English Parliament over Scotland and the Scottish constitution wrote into the treaty of union exemplified by Scots the Claim of Right.
For Sturgeon to miss this as someone who used to practice law for good or bad, simple says,
She knows what she is doing to stop the union ending while working in and for the English branch office placed in Scotland.
Many believe that we can co wonders now we have a Scottish Parliament.
We do not have a Scottish Parliament.
We have a branch office asking its boss for permission to have a vote to leave the boss.
And the boss always writes the rules of any business or company.
Why anyone thinks the boss will let its branch office break up the company without fixing the result first is beyond me.
Its early days lets not get carried away in the moment that Sturgeon has suddenly changed her mind on Scottish independence, lets wait and see what she does over the coming months, that will determine if she’s serious or not about dissolving this union, or not.
A poorly organised indyref is as bad as no indyref, furthermore if Sturgeon is serious about holding a indyref, will she carry on through with it when Johnson says no to an S30, or will see fold as many expect she will, again its still far too early to say.
Also is this new found desire for Scottish independence a bread and circuses attempt to turn heads away from her poor tenure that’s led to Scotland being in a bit of a state, and lets wait and see time will surely tell.
“Treason doth never prosper,
what’s the reason?
Why, if it prosper,
none dare call it Treason”
I can’t listen to Sturgeon.
Tried to listen to her press conference & couldn’t
Tried to listen to her Glen Cambell interview & couldn’t.
I’m relying on posters here to let me know if I’m missing anything important like the date of the referendum.
I already decided way back that Scotland should be an independent country & and I still believe it.
I know people won’t believe me, (don’t actually blame them), but for the record, I’m trying to suspend judgement on Nicola’s paper, and at least read it before passing comment, but jeezo it’s hard going.
We’ve picked 10 countries with better economies than the UK, let me stress, UK, not Scotland, and we’re comparing graphs of “stuff”.
Nevermind the stuff, I find myself asking, is this actually even Scottish Research, or just junk plagiarised from some obscure UK Civil Service report that’s been cobbled together and made to look like it’s somehow relevant to Scotland? Every graph features data about the UK. UK this, UK that… What am I meant to be comparing? “Household type (people/previous earnings as % of average wage/months unemployed)” …WhatTF? WhyTF? WhoTF cares about this?
Then the light comes on. This isn’t Scottish analysis at all, it IS guff from some wastepaper basket deep in the bowels of the UK Civil Service. The information is all centered on UK data of glancing relevance to Scotland at best, and the whole thing has just been cut and pasted together with a few bland and superficial references here and there to Scotland.
Altogether now…“You’re so vain, you probably think the song’s about Scotland. Don’t you? Don’t you?….
This is just twaddle. This is actually like reading somebody else’s homework. “F” Fail. See me after Class.
50p prize to whoever is first to find the UK Civil Service document these graphs and “analysis” came from…
Sorry, but Sturgeon has about as much credibility as the Alphabetite who claimed she was at the Bute House dinner.
In other words – Zero!
I now rank her supporters alongside those of Baw Jaws… the willfully deaf, blind and stupid.
Can’t wait to learn that the entire £600k Indyref2 war chest has been blown on Brit Nic’s “vision”… Should’ve gone to Specsavers! 🙂
Robertknight.
Brit nic,
Liking the new title.
Sturgeon severely lacks the charisma to get me out my seat. Salmond has stories quick wit, humour a stident and successful debating style. An expert on Scottish history.
Nicola’s dour faced and uninspiring. Sorry, but after 8 years of listening to you Nicola if you really care about Independence. You’ll invite the strongest Independence voices in Scotland to help you make the case for you.
Breeks @5.27pm.
As I said at 4.58pm.
This is just the opening salvo from Sturgeon, no ones berated her more than me, but lets give it a few months to see what materialises if anything.
One thing has certainly resurfaced with a vengeance the foreign media that passes for Scottish is now on attacking the possibility of Scottish independence again, from Radio Scotland to STV news they are all having a go, for a moment I was transported back to 2014, and the sheer bias of the foreign media that passes as Scottish against an indy Scotland.
Oh how I loathe this union.
She annoys me. Sorry Nicola. I hope you prove us all wrong and go from town Hall to town Hall inspiring and enthusing everyone around you to vote Independence. But I’ve been nothing in 8 years to give me that confidence that you’ll deliver. Scotland needs to prove to the world that we can do it better, for people to vote for it. Her record in Government, as outlined in the game of two halves article, proves that she isn’t doing that. Hopefully those in the SNP grow some backbone and say, Independence isn’t safe in Sturgeon’s hands. It’s time to change the leader before she blows our chance for good.
Quite comical to hear the all mouth and trousers brigade in here telling us to suspend disbelief and give Imelda a chance. Particularly odd when they’re the ones bloviating on a daily basis about those who disagree with them being britnat shills, unionist agents and not “real” nationalists.
Still, if you’re prone to conspiracy theorising woo-woo about who is responsible for Vlad’s war, covidiocy, WEF/big pharma’s Great Reset and nativism it’s a safe bet even an arch devolutionist like Sturgeon will seem like a political genius to you.
More carrots anyone?
I truly feel _____nothing. I know it’s to keep the mugs on board the SNP bandwagon and very little to do with Indy.
When things are falling apart around you it is always good to have a major distraction to hand.
Republicofscotland says:
14 June, 2022 at 6:30 pm
lets give it a few months to see what materialises if anything.
Aye. Careful what we wish for. For better or worse, she might really be going for it. The question arises, if she presses on regardless, fking things up like she’s fked them up before, can we now stop her losing it? The game takes a twist.
But there’s an awful smell of wet paint around her “plans”. It is utterly unconvincing.
So, if Sturgeon is going to call a referendum to be held next year, name the date. Get on with it. Launch the indy campaign. But, sadly, that won’t happen.
I will believe she is going to hold an indyref, when she names the date. Anything less, is just baloney. Name the date, state you WILL hold the referendum, then publish ‘white papers’ or whetever. Right now half of Scotland simply do not believe she even intends holding an indyref.
She probably heard rumours that Boris the clown will soon be booted out, and an election called, and realises her coat is on a very shoogly peg (because she has done sweet f all to get us independence).
She should name the date or just shut the **** up. I’m just tired of her lies and endless procrastination.
Breeks
For once, lol, I find myself in total agreement with you.
Really disappointed to find that all the graphs of things, that in all honesty, are not relevant to Scotland as a separate entity.
Of course, there may be more to come from Nicola, there simply has to be, but what a missed opportunity to get the Independence juices flowing.
I fear for the worse!
If Sturgeon is serious on Scottish indy and that’s far from certain, only time will tell, and the UK government challenges the right to hold another indyref, and it ends up in the Supreme court, I’m wondering how that will pan out for the Supreme court is an English construct enacted in 2007 when Gordon Brown was PM, to try and counter the HoC. I’m thinking this court has no power over the sovereign people of Scotland’s will to hold an indyref via the mandate we’ve given our government, and a negative judgement against Scotland holding a indyref will cut across the sovereignty of the Scottish people, as Brexit did, that was pointed out by the ex-Welsh FM Carwyn Jones, but completely ignored by our own supposedly Scottish independence minded government.
Required Immediately: A Leader for Scotland’s Independence Movement
Nation with a compliant figurehead, an unprincipled establishment, a malevolent justice system and a deceitful media urgently needs a new Leader.
Must be of impeccable character with fully developed leadership skills. Ability to achieve independence and immortality essential. Duplicity, maliciousness, indolence, self-importance, narcissism, arrogance, complacency, passivity and servility will disqualify.
‘I am not afraid of an army of lions led by a sheep. I am afraid of an army of sheep led by a lion.’ Alexander the Great
Ruby
I was shocked to the core when I was browsing through some of the posts in the previous article on here. It does not take too long when you simply skip past a lot of them. The reason for my astonishment was discovering that you claim to be married. I have no may of checking the veracity of this comment but, if it is true, please express my deepest sympathies to Mr Ruby!
You actually remind me of Lady Astor. You will no doubt be aware of the exchange that allegedly took place between the said Lady and Winston Churchill. For those that are unaware the conversation went something like this-
Lady Astor said ‘You truly are a horrible man Winston. If you were my husband I would put poison in your tea’.
Churchill replied ‘Madam, if I was your husband……..I would drink it’.
You are correct in stating that people did vote for ‘YES’ in the 2014 referendum without knowing which currency we would use. It may have slipped your mind that the ‘YES’ camp actually lost that vote.
Chas has zero faith in Sturgeon, the SNP and some of the more rabid Independence supporters.
Watching NS taking about the referendum was not a pretty sight. The body language was terrible, no enthusiasm, slow speak, low tone voice etc. If I didn’t want to give her the benefit of the doubt, I would say she was merely going through the motions. it was just so flat and devoid of life. I remember AS had a real spring in his step when he anounced indy ref 1 in 2014. I could be wrong, but the vibe I’m getting from NS is that her heart just isn’t in it. She is only going through the motions because she has to.
I hope I’m wrong, I really do.
Robert Louis says:
14 June, 2022 at 7:00 pm
” Right now half of Scotland simply do not believe she even intends holding an indyref.”
And the other half are giving us pelters for pointing out why we don’t believe her and being told basically that out concerns over GRA are not important. Back to “wheeshting for indy”.
As you say, name the date and I’ll vote Yes but I couldn’t campaign for that woman. Just can’t justify her words or deeds over the GRA or the Salmond case to potential voters.
@ Luigi
The ways she looked you’d thought someone had taken away her cereal box, it wasn’t a moment to fell happy about.
Just when I thought Sturgeon was getting sensible. Playing the percentage game. 1 million Scottish people voted for Brexit. A third of which were SNP supporters. Leaving a Union with 59 representatives to join a Union with six representatives. I want to be in an Independent Country. Slap a 200 mile exclusion zone around our coast. Who decided we were going back into the EU without a public vote. It certainly wasn’t SNP members or me. Having been rejected by NGOs, UN etc. The EU is now the latest job app for FM. As a principled Independence supporter I will vote for Independence but I cannot stand on the street with these guys. They make no sense. And after 8 years of being ostracised Stewart Hosies olive branch is insulting to Independence supporters.
@George Ferguson 7.39 pm
Whether pro-independence folk are pro or anti EU doesn’t really matter. An independent Scotland will have to re-apply if it wants to join the EU in its own right. That’s only going to happen if Scots agree, whether via a specific referendum, or if pro-EU parties dominate early parliaments post indy and make it their policy.
You’re obviously against the EU, but it’s pretty likely you’ll still be a minority post indy, just as you are in Scotland now. Perhaps things will change and Scots will go for a Norway style deal. EFTA membership seems a reasonable compromise short term.
I doubt all that many share your brexiteer false equivalence that we’d just be swapping one union for another.
Robert Louis probably has it right. Opening the conversation on independence with such a lackluster performance doesn’t exactly set the house on fire. Most likely it’s simply laying out a negotiating position in advance of Boris getting the boot in the coming months.
James Che.@6:05
“Brit nic,
Liking the new title.”
I’ll confess it’s not my invention. I saw elsewhere an image which combined a soft drink’s logo and an “RFC 55” graphic, (The 55 numbers incorporating the Union Flag design). I can’t find it ATM to post a link, but it comprised:
Britnic
55
55% No Vote redux
Not sure which “side” of the Indy debate it originated from, but in her case it’s appropriate either way.
@Andy Ellis 9:42pm
Andy you are wrong in your assumption. I am neither against or for the EU. I am against the public not been able to vote on this issue. Policy is being made up by about 6 people. There is no hinterland of views being accomodated. And surely if Scottish Independence is to prevail then a collegiate approach is needed. But that is your MO cast everybody as a right wing malevolent. I was campaigning for Independence when you weren’t if even in the country.
” Can’t wait to learn that the entire £600k Indyref2 war chest has been blown on Brit Nic’s “vision”… Should’ve gone to Specsavers! ?”
Instead of Respectlosers .
The idea that what is essentially a Gay Club with a bit of Independence tinsel attached is going to seriously challenge or be a threat to one of the most powerful and powerfully entrenched societal structures in History ie the English Establishment and it’s Political/Judicial/Financial /Security Service props is beyond laughable ; it’s seriously deranged .
The rainbow bubble the NSNP Cabal and it’s courtiers have been inhabiting is about to be popped .
Turning pronouns into swords ain’t gonna cut-it this time . If ( big one ) this isn’t just more deflection flannel and it gets to the point of televised debates , interviews etc this mob will exposed for the ( feather ) lightweights they are and we can say farewell to any possibility of Independence for the foreseeable
Anyone found out any more about:
1. https://heraldalba.com/
2. The Dave Llewellyn v Alphabetty court case
@James Che.
I give up. Can’t find the image, but take the 55’s from this…
https://images.app.goo.gl/bjYgk9geA3dDomiw6
Placed into…
https://images.app.goo.gl/tqriMdkKeW5kmtUj9
With the “Britnic” and “55% No Vote redux” and you get the idea.
@Geroge Ferguson 8.55pm
Your OP certainly came across as euro-sceptc if not full on brexiteer, The false equivalence between the two unions is a well known brexiteer trope, so it’s hardly surprising that’s how most would take it. I’m happy to accept you are neutral on the matter if you say so however.
The Scots people will decide if we join the EU posy though, won’t they? We may not know exactly how yet, but we can’t know what the future post independence political landscape will be. It might be via referendum, or via parties in parliament deciding based on their platform at elections.
I only cast those who are (or appear to be) right wing malevolents as such.
Perhaps the collegiate approach of #indyref1 is dead. Lots of people who support independence have other views I find objectionable, absurd or just plain mental, whether they are slavish SNP loyalists, ethnic nationalists, folk who think obsessing about the Treaties of Union will result in indy, of folk who insist revolutionary vanguardism and UDI is the answer.
@ Robert Hughes 8.57pm Robert your comment encapsulated the whole chance we have for indy under these scum (NONE)
I cannot hold the vomit in long enough to even listen to her LIES , how ANYONE could believe this collaborator believes in independence is beyond me .
8 years of a aquiescence, LIES, CORRUPTION and FAILURE and people are still willing to give her a chance OMG
As the saying goes ” WHEN PEOPLE SHOW YOU WHO THEY ARE BELIEVE THEM”
http://robinmcalpine.org/for-me-today-is-a-day-of-sadness/
No comment facility on Robin’s site so will just tack on here that he may be sad today, but his highly committed work efforts in producing articles that provide insight and analysis on matters relating to Scotland and our quest to return to self-governing nation status are very much appreciated.
@Andy Ellis 9:11pm
OK Andy. You agree I am not right wing kinda difficult when you parents were a jute spool winder and weaver. But we need solutions. I can’t campaign for Nicola Sturgeons view of the world. Or her approach to a new Independence campaign
I am just back home after a holiday. And on hearing the campaign launch I wish I wasn’t here. Flatter than a witch’s tit.
Chas @ 3:41pm,
You are being disingenuous.
Money being part of the equation is not the same as money being all of the equation which in turn is different from money not being in the equation at all.
I still disagree with you.
If you understand my point, perhaps you can explain it to Mark Boyle who seems to be struggling with the concept.
@George Ferguson 9.22 pm
I share your pain. I certainly don’t think we can look to the current SNP for solutions. Robin McAlpine is right: what should be a joyful day is instead one of sadness for many. Eight years of wheel spinning and lost opportunities and dreaming of what could and should have been.
Perhaps things do have to get worse before they can get better? Not a nice thought for those who will suffer due to the continued delay.
We know where the responsibility lies though, and it isn’t the fault of the British nationalists.
O/T: Broadcasting Scotland’s fundraiser has leapt up to £9000 today but they need to reach their target of £20,000 by tomorrow.
Anybody on here able to help?
Breeks @ 5:27 pm
“This isn’t Scottish analysis at all, it IS guff from some wastepaper basket deep in the bowels of the UK Civil Service.”
Quite, its undergraduate level stuff, but we are run by a mediocre UK Civil Service which is tasked to prevent independence, so par for the course.
What parts of the data indicate, however, is how under-developed Scotland is, which is a colonial legacy due to centuries of plunder and exploitation, an economy set up to serve only the interests of the ‘mother country’, its indigenous people marginalised. Our colonial overseers fail to appreciate this reality of course, far less acknowledge that independence is decolonisation. If our independence ‘leaders’ don’t even know what independence is or why it is essential, then they are hardly likely to be capable of liberating the people.
Only thing (3 points) I can say is:
-get it organised
-get it done
-get out! (of UK)
We need to do this ASAP!!!!!
I guess everyone’s excited about the prospect of indyref2 ?
AYE FKN SILENCE because that jokes been done to death it’s just not funny anymore
The same as ellis and his tag team partners talking up Independence . you lot were sussed ages ago everyone knows your aim is to shut this platform down , you know it we know it and you are just following orders .
Now pay attention FK OFF
By far the most revealing paragraph in this latest post is the intro:
“While this site remains mothballed, it’s nice to keep a steady trickle of traffic going just in case it ever needs to spring back to life, eg if someone actually interested in independence suddenly somehow becomes leader of the SNP again.”
So it’s still all about the SNP, is it? Given up on Alba, have you Reverend? What’s your idol Mr Salmond going to say about that?
Not much, I expect. Reading between the lines of one of his recent speeches, it seems he’s done the same.
Rob Brown says:
15 June, 2022 at 12:31 am
“eg if…”
—
Read the actual lines, and you might not be in such a rage all the time.
Intellectual laziness is boring, come back when you’re cured.
https://www.gov.scot/publications/independence-modern-world-wealthier-happier-fairer-not-scotland/pages/7/
The paper talks about Swedish Jobs Councils and Danish Jobs Councils. This is nonsense. I despair. I’ve no idea what she’s on about in this paper. The press conference today was a dreadful PR display. No wonder she was clawing at her face. I would be humiliated to publish what she’s just published as well. Plagerism.
Compare it to the Wee Alba Book. That’s a scene setter linked below.
https://www.albaparty.org/wee-alba-book
Rob Brown says:
15 June, 2022 at 12:31 am
What’s your idol Mr Salmond going to say about that?
Not much, I expect. Reading between the lines of one of his recent speeches, it seems he’s done the same.
I’ve no idea what Alex Salmond has ever done to you, but you clearly have a personal axe to grind and a jaded perspective.
Salmond is doing everything possible to steer Sturgeons catastrophic bin fire in the general direction of Independence and Constitutional safe harbour of sovereignty. Hopefully Salmond, the SSRG and Salvo between them, can establish enough presence to shepherd Sturgeon’s artless “Campaign” away from looming catastrophe, and keep it afloat in safer constitutional waters where we can at least see the bottom.
Unlike Sturgeon, with multiple unwarranted mandates she hasn’t a clue how to use, Salmond has all guns blazing and is talking a lot of sense, perhaps the best sense he ever has, but his progress is stymied because of the mandate he hasn’t been given. No thanks in part to damaging stunts like your own challenge to his ALBA leadership when the party and the man Scotland so desperately needed to thrive, was still vulnerable and gasping for it’s first breaths of life.
If only the power of one was in the hands of the other, Scotland would be in an infinitely better place and we’d be in the home stretch of Independence delivered, rather than shadowing yet another of Sturgeon’s disasters in the making, with an outline Constitutional Rescue Mission which can only possibly avert catastrophe.
Until Scotland wakes up to the real Nicola Sturgeon, those are the cards we’ve been dealt.
https://twitter.com/ionamacbeath/status/1536789476231548937?cxt=HHwWksC4ld344tMqAAAA
It would seem she is quite the Manchurian Candidate.
@Robert Hughes says:14 June, 2022 at 8:57 pm
”Turning pronouns into swords ain’t gonna cut-it”
That’s a great line, Robert. Well worth repetition.
The people of Scotland retained the right to petition the Crown directly in 1707.
The people bypass the legislatures in doing so.
Claim of Right Act 1689 is enshrined not only in Scots law, but also recognised in English law via Union with Scotland Act 1706. It remains outwith the competence of UK Parliament to alter in any way, shape or form.
Westminster cannot stop the people of Scotland having their voice heard on any matter, and the Crown has a duty to uphold the expressed wishes of the people of Scotland. It’s part of the contract the monarch has with Scotland.
The Court of Session is Scotland’s supreme civil court. The nobile officium can issue ANY binding order.
Holyrood may need S30 order for something, but the people don’t and never have. We can organise our own referendum that isn’t designed & impeded by Civil Service or politicians.
I think that’s why the press conference was called in haste by Nictating Sturgeon, prompting a rebuke in the Chamber from the Presiding Officer about the lack of respect for the Parliament that the announcement wasn’t made there first.
Party politics has been a blight on Scotland since 1707; We need real change for a brighter future, but braying hordes and clapping seals is for the circus, not a legislating chamber. We don’t elect juries, so why should we elect people to the legislatures?
And then…
Once Scotland is independent, as Scots law is already a party to ALL Treaties entered into by UK Parliament on Scotland’s behalf, it can be argued that we have the right to claim continuance of said treaties. Treaties are enshrined in law by Acts of Parliament.
Vienna Convention on Succession of States in Respect of Treaties
https://treaties.un.org/doc/Treaties/1996/11/19961106%2005-51%20AM/Ch_XXIII_02.pdf
Scotland has defined borders.
Scotland has a permanent population.
Scotland will have a form of government.
Scots law isn’t a secret to the international community, no matter the amount of squealing from Ellis.
@Andy Ellis says:14 June, 2022 at 8:42 pm
“I doubt all that many share your brexiteer false equivalence that we’d just be swapping one union for another”
Well, maybes not on here, Andy, but this is far from being a showcase of the best and brightest in the land.
Allow me to paraphrase the late, unlamented, Mrs May:
“Independence means Independence”.
It doesn’t mean majority rule from a foreign capital city and it doesn’t mean that your currency and fiscal policies are set to benefit the economy of a foreign country. It doesn’t mean that your ancient rights, freedoms and laws have to be refracted through the prism of a foreign legal system and quietly abraded away where they inconveniently don’t conform.
“Independence In Europe” was just another con in the long list of cons that have been fed to the Scots over the centuries. The fact that a possible majority of Scots has yet to see through it, simply attests yet again to the unsophisticated, trusting, half-asleep, naivety of the Scots.
@Robert Graham 12.12 am
“The same as ellis and his tag team partners talking up Independence . you lot were sussed ages ago everyone knows your aim is to shut this platform down , you know it we know it and you are just following orders .”
You and your posse of moonhowlers seem very keen to police this place. The idea that you and they have somehow sussed out anything will come as news to anyone reasonable still reading or contributing here. The aim of the remaining adults in the room is to prevent this place becoming, and being remembered if it is closed down, a haven for a basket of deplorables. Recourse to vulgar abuse is of course par for the course for unreasoning trolls.
Nobody takes the othering you and your mates deal out seriously. Labelling anyone who disagrees with you a yoon, or a britnat or on the paroll of the 77th Brigade just makes you look a bit unhinged. It’s exactly the same type of tactics used by yoons against independence supporters during indyref1, and does you and others little credit, not that any of you are rational or self aware enough to see the damage it does to the cause.
Luckily, you all still represent a tiny minority in the movement punting your woo-woo and howling against the wind.
@Rob Brown 12.31 am
“So it’s still all about the SNP, is it? Given up on Alba, have you Reverend? What’s your idol Mr Salmond going to say about that?
Not much, I expect. Reading between the lines of one of his recent speeches, it seems he’s done the same.”
I doubt many will accept your “analysis” of Alex Salmond’s motivation, or of the Rev’s. The SNP isn’t just going to disappear overnight and be replaced by Alba, like the IPP was by Sinn Fein. For better or worse, the SNP is going to be around for a while, whether its members eventually get rid of Sturgeon or not.
Anyone paying attention when Alba was stood up will remember that the eminently reasonable idea at the time was to maximise the number of pro independence seats and votes. Alba doesn’t have to replace the SNP, it only has to deny it and the Greens of an outright majority. That both keeps them honest and ensures they don’t have free rein to enact extremist measures that don’t enjoy popular support like GRA reform.
Unsurprisingly it’s taking Alba time to establish itself. It may not work, but it’s surely premature to write it off altogether until the SNP’s promise of indyref2 in 2023 is stress tested? Where will those who abandon the SNP for its inevitable failure turn then?
Of course, a minority might be putting their faith in UDI and “cunning plans” to indy which avoid the need for pesky referendums or plebiscitary elections, but most of us are yet to be convinced, whatever the true-believers in such short cuts think. If the referendum route fails, the most plausible alternative is plebiscitary elections.
We don’t have to agree with or like the SNP to still see that it will have a role whether we like it or not: of course, the prospect of it being converted to support for plebiscitary elections rather than “Gold Standard S30 sanctioned indyref2” is pretty remote with the Sturgeonistas at the helm. Things can however change fast in politics as Alex Salmond said not long ago. Perhaps that’s all we have to cling to at present?
The SNP has to show us the money, and it’s looking a lot like they’re coming up empty politically as well as financially.
John Main says:
15 June, 2022 at 7:31 am
Well, maybes not on here, Andy, but this is far from being a showcase of the best and brightest in the land.
The fact that a possible majority of Scots has yet to see through it, simply attests yet again to the unsophisticated, trusting, half-asleep, naivety of the Scots.
According to John Main we’re all pork now even ‘Mr Educator of Pork’ himself.
Hmmmm… mutter, mutter….
I might reel my neck in a little about the Civil Service Wastepaper bin.. but just a little.
From the references, I think the OECD might be the source rather than the UK Civil Service wastepaper basket, but it remains generic data about the UK, and it’s relevance to Scotland remains indirect and in my opinion contrived.
https://data.oecd.org/
This is a strange and sterile place to go for reliable data about an Independent Scotland.
@Ruby 8:10
Always the 4-letter words with you, Ruby.
Why not aspire to something better?
An entire dictionary of 5-letter words , 6-letter words, or maybes even more is out there . . .
Dare to better yourself, Ruby.
(And maybes make this place just a smidge more interesting and entertaining).
Breeks says:
15 June, 2022 at 4:35 am
@Rob Brown says:
I’ve no idea what Alex Salmond has ever done to you, but you clearly have a personal axe to grind and a jaded perspective.
Just for a bit of “station identification”,
Rob Brown runs the Jaggy Blog. He attempted to take over the Alba Party in August 2021 and was told GYTF. He came back in May to gloat in the “A Game Of Two Halves” thread. As I said, he’s a Woofer The Bloodhound shitpost merchant giving it “I knew it all the time” after scrubbing all evidence to the contrary.
He spent a good bit of time here last year using the comments here as an advertising board for it, including this beauty:
Rob Brown says:
30 April, 2021 at 1:21 pm
This is basically why I, a highly experienced journalist and journalism educator, have returned to Scotland and launched a new Scottish political blog today. With the struggle for Scotland now in its most crucial stage, we need as many new sites as possible to expose such fainthearts and frauds. To see what I have to say please check out jaggy.blog
Al-Stuart last year said that the poster Ron Maclean who has turned up here again recently is a Rob Brown sock puppet account.
https://wingsoverscotland.com/the-unfinal-countdown/comment-page-2/#comment-2671551
Andy Ellis says:
15 June, 2022 at 7:50 am
You and your posse of moonhowlers seem very keen to police this place.
===================================================================================================
Maybe just trying to help Stu and yourself out. Stu doesn’t have the time or the will to moderate every comment he needs our help.
Find the following at the end of the previous thread:
Rev. Stuart Campbell says:
14 June, 2022 at 2:45 am
“But I never imagined that I would leave because of censorship. And that’s what’s happening.”
The words redacted and redacted got added to the filter because people were incapable of debating the subject without turning into arseholes and I’m not manually moderating the damn place full time. If folk start to behave they’ll be taken out again.
I reckon if someone does comment on your behaviour it could be worth listening. You could save yourself from being described as an arsehole and a cunt.
I suppose that could be difficult when like John Main you believe everyone except yourself is stupid.
How stupid do you have to be not be aware that this superior attitude might be offensive.
I knew Rob Brown was Jaggy and I expect most other posters did.
What I would like to know more about is
1. https://heraldalba.com/
2. The Dave Llewellyn v Alphabetty court case
3. What’s happened to Al-Stuart?
John Main says:
15 June, 2022 at 8:25 am
@Ruby 8:10
Always the 4-letter words with you, Ruby.
Why not aspire to something better?
Arsehole! How’s that? That has eight letters!
Lumbering leadership’s lack lustre liberation love-in.
https://archive.ph/EdmmX
YAWN, YAAAAWN!
“Given up on Alba, have you Reverend?”
I leafleted for Alba first time around but it simply has no traction. This is not surprising.
There hasn’t been a successful political party founded in the UK since 1985, if you define “successful” as the Green Party’s one MP and handful of MSPs. The SNP goes back to 1934.
Splinter parties hardly ever work. SDLP failed, ChUKTIG failed. Alba has failed to even play the outflanking role of UKIP, which it could have done under PR. UKIP was filling a void of English nationalism in the Cameron era. Alba has no comparable void to fill.
The overwhelming likelihood now is for the tragicomedy of the Sturgeon Cult to play itself out, followed by cultural change within the SNP.
It was almost downbeat and sullen in a way that made you wonder if it was only happening under duress. Kevin McKenna
That is spot on! She only did it because she had no choice.
More carrots were urgently needed.
Absolutely no one is asking why other small countries have been successful as independent entities. This case was made in 2014 and – as previously noted – accepted by the leaders of Better Together. Kevin McKenna
Has she said anything that wasn’t said in 2014? I don’t feel the need to listen or read anything she’s said as I made up my mind a long time ago that ‘Scotland should be an independent country’ If there are already 50% convinced then she needs to concentrate on the soft NOs. Maybe she needs to hire Rob Shorthouse (remember him?) to help her find out which group she should be concentrating on.
Ottomanboi says:
15 June, 2022 at 8:59 am
Lumbering leadership’s lack lustre liberation love-in.
https://archive.ph/EdmmX
YAWN, YAAAAWN!
Excellent article by Kevin McKenna.
Thanks for that link Ottomanboi
The most uplifting event I witnessed during the 2014 campaign was organised by a group of working-class women in Govan, who had all encountered profound challenges in their lives related to addiction, violence and poverty.
As it begins to dawn on them that their womanhood is being eroded by the slew of misogyny from middle-class gender performance artists that have prevailed in the SNP, they may be less than willing to campaign on behalf of Yes. Kevin McKenna
That is an excellent question.
@Rob Brown
Nothing to worry about is my guess.
Reading between the lines of what was laid down yesterday, the seasonal “science” that allowed Boris to party while US burned, and prevented indy ref being held immediately after definitively leaving EU (Feb 2020), is now settled.
Ditto any ambiguity over the existence or otherwise of corroborating evidence in the trial that may have compromised the campaign/ result of any such vote held earlier (March 2020).
Accordingly, thanks in no small part to Sturgeon and Salmond having laid out enough rope re the foregoing, any vote for a secure border now comes with the added incentive of the potential to send all uninvited Brits parading around like they own the joint, in strict accordance with their own highly esteemed principles, directly to visa processing/civics training camp in Rwanda.. 😉
@Breeks
The very fist chart, painting republic of Ireland as being twice as filthyrich as UK, is certainly suspicious – could it be circumstantial evidence of yet more good news, in the form of the lengths to which the treasury is prepared to talk itself down vis a vis perception management, when it comes to splitting, or not, the post divorce booty?
Politically Homeless says:
15 June, 2022 at 9:00 am
I leafleted for Alba first time around but it simply has no traction. This is not surprising….
..The overwhelming likelihood now is for the tragicomedy of the Sturgeon Cult to play itself out, followed by cultural change within the SNP.
Don’t write off ALBA yet. Things are moving behind the scenes, and good people are working hard in difficult circumstances.
Back in 2014, anything and everything remotely pro Independence
could bask in brilliant YES sunshine. Fast forward to 2022, and anything and everything remotely pro Independence has to survive the rain, hail and ice from Sturgeon’s Winter-land Narnia and the “Dark” YES smear and cancel culture.
It’s division nobody wanted or asked for except Nicola Sturgeon, but it’s here and running rampant amongst us.
Personally, I believe that if her Campaign looks like being a disaster, Sturgeon is quite safe from criticism from the Unionists. But if it isn’t a disaster, if YES looks potent and victory looks viable, that’s when we can expect to see Sturgeon’s rather ugly chickens coming home to roost, when the BritNat Media turns on her.
We might come to need ALBA, and need it very quickly, so don’t give up on ALBA.
The time will come when Pete Wishart types will be begging forgiveness for their lies and vicious hatchet job on the noble heart of Scotland’s YES Community.
“IF” we need to throw off our ALBA cape because the SNP have caused it too much damage, then we will do whatever it takes to secure Scottish Independence. But be in no doubt, ALBA troops are Elite Yessers, and it’s a fkg stupid General (or lance corporal in Wishart’s case), who despises and abuses the very best of their soldiery.
There was a brilliant quote I read yesterday for Yessers to contemplate, (sorry I forget where it was, I bounce around all over the place), but Alexander the Great was quoted saying he’d rather fight an army of lions led by a sheep, than an army of sheep led by a lion.
There’s a different quote which Sturgeon should read from Churchhill… The only thing worse that fighting a war with Allies is fighting a war without them.
Never forget, we only need to win once. They need to beat us down every time, again, and again, and again… So get to your feet again, and again, and again.
Reclaiming the Scottish Constitution
“In this is evident the cultural uniqueness of Scotland’s constitutional reality amidst the imposition of an alien English constitutional principle, the latter unlawful and in clear violation of the Treaty of Union itself.”
By Professor Alf Baird https://www.salvo.scot/
I’ve noticed one or two folk over the last couple of days stating that although they don’t trust or like Sturgeon etc we should still campaign as if she’s serious etc.
Of course you should, if you believe in Scotland’s right to self-determination. Nothing or nobody should put you off. Yes, it’s worrying that skanky Sturgeon may sell us short during indyref negotiations or that her priorities are for an extreme minority. But never ever forget that after indy absolutely *everything* can be changed. And we get to change it from a position of strength, without Westminsters interference.
For example, just look at how Westminster has operated over Brexit. They did everything and anything to get exactly what they wanted (away from EU control). But look at them now, they’re going against most of the major agreements they’ve made or are making threat-after-threat.
What i’m saying is indy is the most important goal and we should never forget that. To revive an old saying, or a version of it just look at it this way. Do you think folk who are involved in property development drop all interest in a purchase if the seller of that property was a right-wing neo-nazi paedophile? Or do you think they drop all interest in purchasing a coveted bit of land for development if the land is riddled with invasive weeds?
Of course they don’t! We must never forget that with indy everything and anything is possible. Whilst under the control of Westminster and it’s glorified district council (Holyrood) we go from bad to worse. But i suppose we can always sit on the internet whinging about our situation and falling for every distraction thrown our way. Indy is far greater than *any* individual or *any* single cause.
Keep up the fight, folks, future generations will thank us for it. Just remember, we only need vote for it, every other country has had to spill their blood for it. Are we seriously going to let ‘Skanky Sturgeon’ & Co put us off? I for one won’t! Then come the next UK General Election, if there’s been no significant advance towards a vote, we work to dump those who we sent to Westminster.
@ Breeks at 10.14: those are wise and heartening thoughts. Thank you.
I am surprised at Yessers writing Alba off. It outdid LibDems and Greens in places in the local elections AND has only existed for just over a year.
Of course Unionist parties and the rancid section of SNP will write Alba off – that is normal politics. They WANT Alba to disappear because they fear it.
If the polls are correct we only need 1% to win or lose.
Which group do you think we should concentrate on to gain that vital 1%?
Can holiday home owners be convinced that England would be better off without Scotland likewise the English (AKA New Scots) who have moved to Scotland?
How much of an issue would dual nationality be to the New Scots & the holiday home owners?
Is Andy Ellis’s idea that there should be no dual nationality on offer in iScotland unhelpful?
What about all the students from England could they be convinced to vote YES?
Could we maybe lay on some parties to help them decide?
Dual nationality could be helpful to students in the event of iScotland being part of the EU.
What about all the homeless in England? Could we convince them to come to Scotland to vote YES?
We could ditch the minimum pricing shit for a couple of weeks. It turns out the minimum pricing shit has been pretty useless as people are just cutting down on food in order to pay the extra for booze.
What about the Orange-Rangers supporters? Worth bothering about or a waste of time?
Any reason we cant make a vow to offer them unlimited Orange Walks, free flutes, drums & uniforms, Nicola’s unused ‘haute couture’ for the ladies, freedom to sing whatever they want, British nationality, the Queen, UJs everywhere & free travel to N.Ireland?
How many voters would make up 1%?
Do you think the above mentioned groups would make up 1%?
You suspected I was Jaggy, did you Ruby? You really should be a cyber detective. On second thoughts, maybe you should just have screenshot the About page on my blog when it was available on the World Wide Web and kept it on file, as your pal Mark Boyle (rather creepily) did. Probably combined with the Ron Maclean (who he?) file.
I’ll leave you pair to crooning Phil Collins’ numbers together at the nearest karaoke when you aren’t saving Scotland from those of us not into political idolatry. I’d much rather read the Reverend’s explanation of why Salmond’s attempt at a political comeback has turned out to be such a non-event in the annals of Scottish history.
Or maybe you’re too busy down in Somerset pulping remaining copies of the Wee Alba Book, Stu?
@Tourette’s Ruby 11.07 am
1% of the registered voters in 2014 equals 42,830 votes. 3.62 million actually voted, so 1% of that would be 36,190 votes.
It’s much more likely that conspiracy theorists, low life cunt-callers and other skid marks on the independence movement will cost us more “soft No” voters than might be gained trying to exclude particular groups the regressive nativists have in their sights for exclusion.
Of course as has been pointed out before, the easiest way would be to convince more of the >80% of born Scots to support indy, and increase the turnout, tho’ 84.59% was a pretty good turnout in 2014.
The idea that the “soft No” voters we need to convince will be drawn to indy by the basket of nativist and conspiracy theory addled deplorables and those shilling for them in here will be seen by more reasonable folk for the delusion it is.
Rob Brown says:
15 June, 2022 at 11:25 am
You suspected I was Jaggy, did you Ruby?
No pal I knew you were Jaggy. Being such a shit hot cyber detective I had a screenshot of your about page. Ofcourse that could have been a lie and your real name isn’t Rob Brown but Ron Maclean James Che or even Andy Ellis
Frankly my dear….
Could you please now leave me in peace I need to learn the words of “In the air tonight” in Spanish. It’s tapas night at the karaoke tonight.
Y puedo sentirlo viniendo en el aire esta noche, oh Señor
He estado esperando este momento toda mi vida, Oh Señor
Puedo sentirlo en el aire esta noche, oh Señor, oh Señor
Y he estado esperando este momento toda mi vida,
Oh Señor, oh Señor
‘Haz un pequeño salto en el aire para mí, OK?”
Muchas gracias! Adios. Hasta nunca.
“So it’s still all about the SNP, is it? Given up on Alba, have you Reverend?”
Alba are not in government.
Andy Ellis says:
15 June, 2022 at 11:51 am
@Tourette’s Ruby 11.07 am
1% of the registered voters in 2014 equals 42,830 votes. 3.62 million actually voted, so 1% of that would be 36,190 votes.
You are very good at sums. Your mummy must be very proud of you.
Can you now get your abacus back out and calculate how many English students, holiday home owners, Orange Boys there are in Scotland & how many homeless people there are in England who might like to come to Scotland for a couple of weeks to vote Yes?
Andy Ellis says:
Of course as has been pointed out before
Don’t worry about pointing out the same thing over and over and over again. We’re used to reading the SSDD from Le Profesor de Cerdos. That’s french. Google translate is your friend. Oink! Oink!
Go away now I’m trying to learn how to do tourettes in Spanish & French.
Rob Brown says:
15 June, 2022 at 11:25 am
You suspected I was Jaggy, did you Ruby? You really should be a cyber detective. On second thoughts, maybe you should just have screenshot the About page on my blog when it was available on the World Wide Web and kept it on file, as your pal Mark Boyle (rather creepily) did.
Nobody has a file on you, champ, since you’re of no importance except in your own imagination. What each of us gleaned came from what you so lovingly vomited up on here and linked to elsewhere of your own volition. Still, how quaint to see a journalist describe as “creepily” what his ilk do to everyone else on a regular basis.
To quote Tom Robinson’s most infamous song … (hey, its Gay June, let’s be topical on here for once!):
‘The British press they are really the pits, owned by bigots and written by shits.
They plaster their pages with bingo and tits, then shove in all the sleeze and slander that fits.”
Probably combined with the Ron Maclean (who he?) file.
Yes, what a wild, bizarre coincidence that the very Ron Maclean Al-Stuart outed as being your sock-puppet should appear on here, the day before you do, saying the following:
Ron Maclean says:
14 June, 2022 at 7:18 pm
Required Immediately: A Leader for Scotland’s Independence Movement
Nation with a compliant figurehead, an unprincipled establishment, a malevolent justice system and a deceitful media urgently needs a new Leader.
Must be of impeccable character with fully developed leadership skills. Ability to achieve independence and immortality essential. Duplicity, maliciousness, indolence, self-importance, narcissism, arrogance, complacency, passivity and servility will disqualify.
Lo and behold, who should turn up here the following morning after “Ron’s” plea but you?! You who I may add already has past form for proffering yourself as a saviour Peter Dow style at the Alba Party conference in Greenock last year!
Master of intrigue you ain’t! 😀
Andy Ellis says:
Of course as has been pointed out before, the easiest way would be to convince more of the >80% of born Scots to support indy, and increase the turnout, tho’ 84.59% was a pretty good turnout in 2014.
What’s the bloody point in wasting time trying to covince 80% when 50% are already convinced?
That’s about as bonkers as spending all day every day trying to educate pork when your mummy told you quite categorically you can’t educate pork. Oink! Oink!
Ruby
Hurry along to the new “What Didn’t Happen” thread and leave your trademark, potty-mouthed, ranting insults.
Your reputation of being first to befoul every thread is at risk.
Skates on!
The Rev Stu needlessly reminds us “Alba are not in government”.
Actually, they don’t have a single council seat in the whole of Scotland and their two MPs were too feart to face a by-election (like Douglas Carswell honourably did when he defected from the Conservatives to UKIP).
The problem is that Alba stands for Alex and Alex lost his standing in Scottish public life even before he was hauled up in the High Court.
End of.
John Main says:
15 June, 2022 at 12:46 pm
Ruby
Hurry along to the new “What Didn’t Happen” thread and leave your trademark, potty-mouthed, ranting insults.
Your reputation of being first to befoul every thread is at risk.
Skates on!
You beat me to it! Felicitations
@Mark Boyle 8:28am
“Al-Stuart last year said that the poster Ron Maclean who has turned up here again recently is a Rob Brown sock puppet account.’
Your viewing @Al-Stuart as a reliable source goes a long way to explaining the breathtaking inanity of your comments.
@Rob Brown 11:25am
‘Probably combined with the Ron Maclean (who he?) file.”
You’ve got a short memory. You took my fiver before you reneged and had to pay it back.
So you were a subscriber to my short-lived blog, Ron? Hope you didn’t go wild with that fiver refund.
Jesus wept, now we have Rob Brown/Ron Maclean talking to himself!
No Mark, that’s you and Stu.
Remarkably similar scatological style you and the Reverend have.
Does the host of this forum post as “Mark Boyle” what he doesn’t have the bottle to post under his own byline? Just wondering.
What happened to the Jaggy Blog?
How come he had to make a speedy exit & give everyone back their fiver?
Is Rob Brown Irish? Did he train to be a priest?
I love this blog. All sorts of interesting characters post here.
I wound up Jaggy because I got bored by cybernats like you Ruby. I offered my subscribers a refund out of principle (a concept you’ll probably struggle to understand).
No I didn’t train to be a priest. Not being a Catholic kind of excluded me from such a clerical calling. But it’s interesting that you should be concerned about that. Were you in the Billy Wolfe wing of the SNP?
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