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Every loser wins

Posted on February 23, 2016 by

So after all the kerfuffle and commotion and comedy, a deal was done, of sorts. The unsquareable circle wasn’t squared, but the day of facing up to it was punted down the line for five years, by which point everyone hopes that it’ll be someone else’s problem. (Which is certainly the case for David Cameron.)

Every newspaper in Scotland tomorrow will look like this:

vowwhine

But what else happened?

It’s perhaps important to note that the UK government tried everything in its power to rip Scotland off. In order to get the worthless crumbs of the Scotland Bill, it tried to make the Scottish Government pay first £7bn, then £3bn, then £2.5bn, before finally conceding that Holyrood could have the worthless crumbs for free.

So why did the Scottish Government sign up to it? Because the devolution of income tax is another degree of detachment between Scotland and the UK. Whether the powers are used or not, the next time the question of independence comes up the leap voters will be being asked to take will be that bit smaller. “Pooling and sharing”, the No camp’s big selling point in 2014, will to a very large extent no longer exist.

The trap designed by the Unionist parties with the Smith Commission has been largely defanged, at least until 2021 when all this will have to be gone through again. The Scottish Government’s negotiating team had to fight tooth and nail to foil it, but most of the pitfalls have been nailed shut for now, and Holyrood has even had its meagre borrowing powers slightly extended (from £2.2bn in total to £3bn).

Both sides can claim victory. The Scottish Government has its small step towards independence, and the Unionist parties, while claiming to have kept their promise, have a stick with which to beat the SNP – Scottish Labour will spend the next five years demanding tax increases, the Tories tax cuts.

The SNP’s current crushingly-dominant position is probably more than strong enough to cope with that, particularly as the competing pulls put it firmly in the centre ground, where conventional wisdom has it that elections are won.

Meanwhile the Scottish Parliament will get to control road signs, which will also stay the same, except maybe for slightly more Gaelic. Air Passenger Duty may or may not finally be cut, to little effect either way.

daisleyff

Everyone has conceded ground, and everyone will say they’ve won. The voices of the Unionist side will be louder, because they control the media, but the sound and fury will signify nothing other than the Daily Record’s overwhelming sense of relief.

Either the EU referendum will bring constitutional matters to a head very soon, or the 2021 reckoning that always seemed likely will duly arrive.

Forgive us if we shrug our shoulders. Nothing much changed today.

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    1. 23 02 16 19:43

      Every loser wins | Speymouth

    204 to “Every loser wins”

    1. David Lyon says:

      “Nothing Important Happened Today”

      I’m sure I’ve heard that somewhere before…

    2. Steve Bowers says:

      maybe not but we did get a new unpopular combo, “Sub State Sally and the cringers”

    3. Anagach says:

      Nothing much has changed. The Scotland Bill is thin gruel and a dogs breakfast (mixed I know).

      But that does not really honor all the effort and hard work put in to prevent Westminster from giving Scotland and the Scottish Government “a doing”.

    4. Bob Mack says:

      Osborne did not look happy at all.

      Well Rev you say nothing had been won, but I think there was a victory.

      Westminster wanted to deliver Smith as much as my cat wanted to be a judge at Cruft.

      The Westminster cabal held the whip hand and thought they were on course to put the SNP (and Scotland) in an impossible position.They failed.No detriment has been kept.

      Any time you take on the powers that hold the purse strings and come out even, or at least no worse off you are a winner.

    5. Grouse Beater says:

      We can look forward to a few more years of the whine:

      “Why are yous not using the munificent powers awarded tae you?” ad nauseam.

      As for third-rate hacks such as Farquharson and Massie sneering at a nation – I hope they’re smart enough not to step in front of my line of vision.

    6. Agreed that the piddling Scotland Bill seems hardly worth the effort, but I’m immensely grateful we had Nicola Sturgeon and John “Don” Swinney on the case. Can you imagine if things had been different?

      Wee Ruthie: “£7Bn cuts? Whatever you say, George.”

      Kez: “What’s a Fiscal Framework?”

    7. Camz says:

      Farq, Massie and Daisley looking less and less like journos and more and more like Yoon trolls.

      You would think that anything that’s good for Scotland reflects on them as Scots. You would think a lack of progress reflects on them, and you wonder if their London bosses / owners have any respect for them.

    8. Graham MacLure says:

      In some people’s eyes this may not be much of a gain but never forget that the longest journey always starts with a single step!

    9. blackhack says:

      Suddenly, Nothing happened………

    10. jimnarlene says:

      And if it was up to likes of, Massie, Farquahrson, Daisley and their preferred parties. We’d be truly f****d.
      These people really appear to detest Scotland, but claim its the SNP they hate. The cringe is strong, within them.

    11. John Lyons says:

      That depends though doesn’t it?

      If the SNP win in May they’ve got unti 2021 to get a referendum in before the next election. It could be called after May 2020 and before the negotiations for this in 2021.

      That could be between May 2020 when England has voted in the Tories again and before 2021 when financial negotiations will allow the UK government to screw us again. In between those there can be only one result.

      And Cameron’s just set the precedent for calling a June referendum after a May election….

    12. heedtracker says:

      So much for Scots being offered ‘home rule within UK’ for voting NO.

      After all their red and blue tory threats, please stay begging, pleading, big splashy we love you Scotland tears, no change.

    13. mumsyhugs says:

      Personally I think something important was achieved today – a breathing space for Nicola and John etc. A chance to consolidate and plan the next move – and to show they won’t be pushed around. No small feat when you consider what they’re having to deal with on all fronts!

    14. Fro says:

      Farq is easily impressed. I remember he pure popped a hardo when the Calman Commission recommendations were announced branding it “Devo 2.0”

    15. One_Scot says:

      Oh dear, The Vow is being delivered.

      Hardly, you cretinous trolling Yoon.

      The ‘Vow’ was sold to Scotland as Devo Max, not this pile of steaming crap.

    16. Robert Graham says:

      it aint over yet it still has more butchering to face from both houses in westmonster , and judging by yesterdays debate in the house of lords where the SNP are likened to attila the hun in a nazi uniform it won’t be pretty

    17. muttley79 says:

      My initial reaction to this is not a happy one…We have now given up our major advantage from the referendum, namely the next time we have a referendum on independence the British state can once again threw in the vote No for more powers line. Unfortunately, the No side can now legitimately claim that they delivered after the first referendum as proof of their bona fides, because the SG have agreed to the deal. Why we have given away this advantage for the frankly inadequate and piss Scotland Bill is a very good question imo. Can someone please explain why the SG/SNP have done this?

    18. Thepnr says:

      This Stephen Daisley is a journalist, a Scottish journalist?

      “The fact George Osborne sealed the deal on the fiscal framework speaks volumes. No chance he gave away more than absolutely necessary.”

      What exactly is it that Stephen believes George was “giving away”? Our own money, English taxpayers money? George gave away absolutely nothing, it is not in his power to give anything.

      These morally corrupt Scottish journalists drive me to despair, he appears to be gloating that Osborne has done a deal where the Scottish PEOPLE not government have managed to get absolutely zero.

      Daisleys hate for the SNP must have fried his brain when he appears very happy that Osborne “gave away” precisely nothing.

      I hope the Scottish Governments first move is to reverse the 2000 job losses that HMRC planned in Scotland.

    19. Duncan says:

      Forced myself to watch BBC news this evening just to see how excited they were about the fiscal framework.

      The most important thing to happen in Scotland in 300 years and they managed to devote a full 4 minutes to it. Wow….they must have been wetting themselves with excitement.

    20. gerry parker says:

      “Nothing much changed today.”

      That’s what I thought Stu when one of my crowns gave me a wee twinge. It’s the start.

      John Swinnie and his team faced up to the Treasury team and won.
      I don’t have that crown any more.

      🙂

    21. yesindyref2 says:

      “The trap designed by the Unionist parties with the Smith Commission”

      Other way around. The trap always was by the SNP and Greens, the moment the Vow was announced, but before that, even when the Unionist parties were promising more powers.

      Another interesting bit of news today: “First Minister announces radical shake-up of local government funding”

      http://archive.is/5KlAC

      If councils are to get a share of income tax to encourage promoting economic growth in their area, the problem is that under these powers:

      1). National Insurance isn’t devolved
      2). VAT is to be only 50% devolved
      3). Corporation tax isn’t devolved
      4). etc.

      It won’t be long before councils will be adding their voice to the call for more revenues and powers to be devolved? Could councils become supporters of FFA? Could councils become supporters of I……….e?

      Won’t be long now.

    22. Macart says:

      As I posted on the last thread, I reckon the most important thing the SG have bought the Scottish electorate is time. Time with the least damage possible to boot.

      Hopefully the Scottish electorate can make that work in their favour. 2020 and the likelihood of continued and ever widening austerity ideology. Whatever the papers say, the public know that what they were led to believe possible has not been delivered and no party or party leader in the established parties has ever any intention of delivering it.

      As for the bubble fuckwittery of the media? Well we know who yanks their chain and there’s not one worth the candle. They couldn’t give a shit about the damage they cause and have caused. They have nothing to say worth listening to.

      In the meantime watch Gideon’s spring budget for a glimpse of the future.

      The SG have bought the electorate a little over four years, best not to waste them.

    23. heedtracker says:

      English media’s not reporting it at all. Looks like even C4 teatime news are not bothering.

      Is it important to England, £7bn over a few years wise or is it really just that they can call Scotland British, they still own it and that’s all done and dusted 2014.

    24. Grouse Beater says:

      Soon be time to add a whole batch of sneers and jeers to the list from anglophiles delighted to think Scotland accept a pig in a poke.

      http://wp.me/p4fd9j-iY

    25. yesindyref2 says:

      By the way, Stephen Daisley is a blinkered idiot, but that’s not surprising seeing the company he keeps on twitter.

      He ought to consider seeking other views, the circle he twits in needs to start remedial maths and logic lessons.

    26. Petra says:

      WELL DONE to John Swinney, Nicola Sturgeon et al.

      FROM THIS:

      February 23, 2016

      ”Presiding Officer, I am well aware that this all sounds highly technical – and it is. But it also has very real implications for Scotland’s budget over the medium and longer term. I want to spell out today what those implications would be.

      If we were to agree the Treasury’s preferred approach, then over the ten years from the end of the transitional period in 2022, Scotland’s budget would be reduced systematically, compared to Barnett, by a cumulative total of £2.5 billion.
      This reduction would happen even if Scotland’s tax rates and economic performance matched the UK’s 100 per cent.

      Now, none of us know exactly what the world will look like in future. It’s no secret that I hope Scotland will become an independent country in future.

      But I could not reach agreement in the full and certain knowledge that – if current constitutional arrangements remain in place – the deal will deliver an ongoing, substantial and systematic cut to Scotland’s budget, relative to the Barnett formula, after just a single parliamentary term.

      That would not live up to Smith because it would not protect Barnett and therefore it would be a clear breach of the Vow.

      The Treasury’s approach would instead see the UK Government extract a significant price in return for the powers Scotland was promised. The only concession they would be making is that they will give us five years before they start collecting the payments.

      Presiding Officer, the powers Scotland was promised didn’t have a price tag attached to them when the Vow was made. The Vow was made freely and unconditionally.

      The question remains – will it now be delivered?

      I continue to hope that it will be. I want these new powers. And whether or not we get a deal, I have made clear that I will publish a manifesto that sets out what we could do with these powers.

      My government will continue to work to secure agreement for as long as the Parliament allows us to. Indeed, even as we speak, discussions are ongoing with the Treasury in an attempt to secure movement and find agreement.

      However, given that the vow was signed by the Prime Minister and the Prime Minister established the Smith Commission, I am writing today to David Cameron to suggest that – if agreement cannot be reached with the Treasury – he and I should seek to resolve the matter directly.

      Presiding Officer, let me be clear. I am prepared to sign up to a deal that includes a transitional arrangement followed by a fair review if –

      – firstly, the review is governed by a shared and continuing commitment to the principles of Smith, including the principle of no detriment that I have set out; and

      – secondly, that there is no assumption of a longer term adoption of a model that delivers population driven detriment, or any suggestion of an automatic default to such a model in the event that no agreement is reached. But I will not sign up to a systematic cut to Scotland’s budget – whether that cut is being applied now or by a pre-judged review in five years’ time.

      I can advise the chamber that within the last hour I have received further proposals from the Treasury which we will now take time to consider and it will be the test I have set out that we will judge these proposals against and take a reasonable view of them.

      Presiding Officer, I am grateful for the opportunity to update parliament today, I think it was appropriate that I did so. I hope that the Scottish Government will have support of parliament in seeking to secure, even at this eleventh hour, a deal that is fair to Scotland and that lives up to the promise that was made to the Scottish people.

      https://firstminister.gov.scot/fiscal-framework-update/

      TO THIS:

      February 23, 2016

      http://news.scotland.gov.uk/News/Fiscal-Framework-22e8.aspx

    27. heedtracker says:

      Oops! Sorry about that, C4 news have actually just covered The Vow delivered farce, about 5 seconds, in between far more very very English and important news, like London rappers, given ten minutes.

    28. FWIW my guess is that Cameron told Osborne to “Get it done” so as to clear the decks for the forthcoming battle over Britex.

    29. Almannysbunnet says:

      Farquharson and Massie? Let the trash talk commence, it really is all they have. A pair of McTossers.

    30. yesindyref2 says:

      @Macart
      Very rare I disagree with you, but as well as getting Smith out of the way, the tax power is actually usable, and I think it can accelerate the process of Indy by the longer route, while not getting in the way of the shorter direct one. But we’ll see!

      What I could see on TV news was a very excited Sturgeon having great difficulty in speaking – which is quite unlike her. And Osborne making the best of it.

    31. heedtracker says:

      From

      Kenny Farquharson ?@KennyFarq 2h2 hours ago
      Oh dear, The Vow is being delivered. Awkward.

      to

      Kenny Farquharson ?@KennyFarq 9m9 minutes ago
      Am being criticised by Wingsy for the order in which I tweet things. I can’t help but think this is a step forward.

      Kenny cant help thinking, is the headline. Considering how hard these guys monster everything Scottish democracy, they deserve a jolly good sneer with every UKOK victory.

    32. ScottishPsyche says:

      There was a victory, albeit a small one. What was on offer was whittled away during Smith but the no detriment clause had to be adhered to. The trick will be to use these paltry powers to grow our economy and mitigate the huge cuts. If the Scottish government can do that, what they could do with Independence?

      As for saying they delivered on the deliberately vague vow? From the moment the yoons started running off during negotiations for Smith to take instruction we knew it would be a poor offer.

      I believe with every limited power they concede the case becomes stronger for more.

    33. Brian Doonthetoon says:

      I’ve typed it before and I’ll type it again.

      6th April, 2020 is the psychologically, logical date for either,

      a) Our next Independence Day, or
      b) The next IndyRef.

      The 700th Anniversary of the Declaration of Arbroath must mean SOMETHING to Scots?

      IndyRef2 by late 2018 would work…

    34. Rev. Stuart Campbell says:

      “Can someone please explain why the SG/SNP have done this?”

      I just did explain it.

      I share a lot of your misgivings. I think if we DO find ourselves in a second indyref in 2021 it means they can sell a pig in a poke again. But as far as I can discern it, the article says why the SG did it.

    35. Rev. Stuart Campbell says:

      “The 700th Anniversary of the Declaration of Arbroath must mean SOMETHING to Scots?”

      99% of people would struggle to tell you the year, let alone the date.

    36. Grouse Beater says:

      I guess this is topical again: http://wp.me/p4fd9j-4cr

    37. Sandy says:

      Any truth in the rumour that Cameron/Osbourne/Johnston have asked Nichola & John to run Engerland.

    38. Thepnr says:

      Aw well that’s more water under the bridge. Soldier on, many battles yet to be won.

    39. Not Convinced says:

      muttley79 says @ 7:27 pm
      My initial reaction to this is not a happy one…We have now given up our major advantage from the referendum, namely the next time we have a referendum on independence the British state can once again threw in the vote No for more powers line. Unfortunately, the No side can now legitimately claim that they delivered after the first referendum as proof of their bona fides, because the SG have agreed to the deal. Why we have given away this advantage for the frankly inadequate and piss Scotland Bill is a very good question imo. Can someone please explain why the SG/SNP have done this?

      Ah, but “The Vow”(TM) was to devolve lots more powers … “As close to federalism / home-rule as possible” was I believe the claim? Now we might dispute whether the Myth^WSmith Commission, let along the Scotland Act 2015 really achieves that but can the Unionists really argue next time “Vote ‘No’ and we’ve give you even more powers!” if they’ll be met with the response of “But you already devolved the most that was possible! So where you lying then or are you lying now?”?

    40. Brian Doonthetoon says:

      Rev Stu typed,

      “99% of people would struggle to tell you the year, let alone the date.”

      I guess education should be in the air?

      8=)

    41. Onwards says:

      Of course the powers are nowhere near enough, and the SNP need to make that very clear.

      Income tax on its own is pretty much useless, especially now with a future ‘review’ on the way. But the crown estate is worthwhile, as is APD. And the reality of Scottish taxes going to Scotland is the most significant of all IMO.

      Importantly we have something to show for the referendum, and a further step towards self-government.

      Look at the big picture:

      1. If it wasn’t for the SNP and the threat of independence, we wouldn’t have a Scottish Parliament in the first place.

      2. If it wasn’t for the SNP getting a majority and holding a referendum we wouldn’t have any new powers now (however much they need improved)

      Next time we hear about all the ‘division’ the referendum caused, that is a handy card to have. In fact it is a good argument for another referendum soon. Next step to keep moving forwards is to work towards another pro-indy majority in May.

    42. Macart says:

      @Yesindyref2

      Don’t worry ’bout it dads. 😀

      Personally I think the SG are covered both ways longer and shorter term contingency. However I do also think events will come to a head around 2020-21, though I could be wrong.

      More importantly the driving factor I think will be the public themselves. How much austerity are they willing to wear on the back these new super powers and do they believe that something significant has been delivered by HMG?

      The next few polls will make things a bit clearer.

    43. Tam Jardine says:

      Well- this proves one thing to the electorate: the SNP were not desperately trying to derail the fiscal framework talks as mony a yoon commentator had suggested. They actually wanted to screw down the treasury to ensure the best deal possible.

      I would have told the treasury and Osborne to GTF but there we are. One question slab, slib and scon need to be asked from here until the election:

      “Would Scottish Labour have secured the no detriment deal? Would the tories (!)”

    44. muttley79 says:

      @Not Convinced

      The Vow was deliberately kept vague, sure they said Devo max/close to federalism etc, but now that the SG/SNP have agreed to the Scotland Bill, then I am afraid to say by the next independence referendum they can pull the same stunt again, namely vote No and we will give you more powers without the risk of full independence. I am struggling to see why the SG/SNP have done this. I take Rev Stu’s point that they will argue we are a small step closer to independence, but really we have just giving away a major issue to use in the second independence referendum.

    45. Taranaich says:

      Five years is a long time. Support for independence this month in 2009 was a mere 29%. Even an “in” vote from Scotland and the rUK as a whole might not settle the matter, as the sheer hypocrisy of the No Campaign will come back to haunt them. A lot can change in five years.

      99% of people would struggle to tell you the year, let alone the date.

      Which is, of course, half the problem, isn’t it?

    46. ScottieDog says:

      Well our options in a conventional sense are limited. We are faced with raising taxes whilst the UK govt is effectively making everyone poorer by sucking demand out the economy.

      But there ARE other options..
      1) campaign at the UK level for the creation of sovereign money in similar fashion to people’s QE.
      2) create an sovereign digital currency within Scotland (I.e. Scotpound).

      Why?
      The UK govt will never go for option 1 because they are governed by the city of London and the banks. Taking away the bank monopoly on money creation takes away their power.

      Option 2 creates purchasing power within Scotland without altering tax revenue (although there will be a setup cost) There are some very large and successful alternative currencies around Europe and more will appear out of necessity due to the idiotic policies of the troika.

      Once people get used to the Scotpound trial, the idea of setting up a proper sovereign currency in an independent Scotland becomes attractive rather than a concern and the idea of banks creating most of our money as debt becomes simply unfathomable.

      The choice will be down to living in a country where the currency is privatised and people are riven by austerity or a state which takes the bull by the horns and creates its own purchasing power.
      So where do you want to live?

      So rather than fanny around for the next 5 years hurling abuse, we just have to get on and do it.
      It can be done.

    47. yesindyref2 says:

      (Herald) “Also as part of the deal, the Treasury will provide £200million towards the cost of setting up a Scottish welfare system, four times its initial offer.”

      I loved the £600 million try on by Swinney & Co. It had the Unionists frothing at the mouth and making a fool of themselves saying like “£600 million? But Salmond said we could do everything for £200 million.”

      I’d love to negotiate a deal with them, unfortunately I’m too honest to really sell them Tower Bridge.

      Apart from the money, it allowed the Treasury to claim it had make a good deal, and therefore pave the way to a better indexation mechanism. “Compromise”. I just love the anti-SNP hatred, it makes them so blind – and so gullible.

    48. Bob Mack says:

      @Mutley79,

      How can they pull the same trick again after saying that they have given us the most devolved Parliament in the world with super duper powers?

      It won’t work twice.

    49. yesindyref2 says:

      Herald “In a significant concession by the Scottish Government, Ms Sturgeon confirmed tax forecasts will be prepared independently by the new Scottish Fiscal Commission watchdog rather than by ministers themselves.”

      It just gets better and better. That’ll be a useful tool next Ref – and one the Unionists insisted on.

    50. heedtracker says:

      From Britnat BBC, red and blue tory point of view, this is pretty meaningless other than they can use it to pile on with monstering Scottish NHS, education, #SNPbad. They have to believe they can get SLab back in control of Scotland. BBC alone will spend the next 5 years trying to get the SNP out of Westminster for starters.

      Brexit could make a difference but in effect, Scotland’s still a mere region of the UK, with red/blue tory carpet bagger types like my Slovene girlfriend here, using us to further their careers down in Westminster, where all the power actually lies.

      Adam Tomkins ?@ProfTomkins 3h3 hours ago
      Today’s announcement a reminder that in the UK two parties matter: the Conservatives & the SNP. Labour & the LDs carping from the sidelines.

      OK Prof T’s an idiot but you know what I mean.

      We’re still stuck in a hard conservative corp media/bankster controlled democracy that’s in almost full control of Scotland, dumping 50+ Westminster MP’s, filling up the Lords with 200 new ones. BBC gets more and more corrupt and their The Vow shyste’s actually worked. Has any of this whole journey had any beneficial effect on any Scot, other than the wealthy minority? No.

    51. Thepnr says:

      What’s done is done, looking back it is clear that if Westminster delivered all the Swinney asked then it had to be a done deal. The SNP made their fate when then signed up to the Smith Commission in the first place.

      Back then was the time for grabbing what you can and I guess they did.

      Looking forward the SNP I hope will explian exactly what they believe these new powers offer and more specifically what they don’t. I am bewildered as to wht this actually means, can only guess that the average Scot has no idea.

      Maybe there can be light at the end of the tunnel, that’ll be down now to John and Nicola to show us.

    52. Croompenstein says:

      It would be better if the Scottish Treasury was set back up instead of still sending the money down to London to be counted. I wouldn’t mind paying more tax if it was going straight to the Scottish Treasury..

    53. Alastair says:

      Forget all the pish. Is the VOW delivered.

    54. Bob Mack says:

      @Croompenstein,

      Entirely agree. Only God himself,and the Treasury know the full extent of Scottish revenues.I do not trust them an inch.

    55. Achnababan says:

      What John and Nicola know is that evey power gained can never be lost… so if the new powers dont work well then we travel further down the road the next time….

      Of course they had no choice but it was not a Hobson’s choice … it is part of ‘our’ plan not Westminster’s and they know it!

    56. carjamtic says:

      Not the earth shattering,world changing outcome that some,maybe expecting.

      Sturgeon’s playing a canny game,she’s somehow turned a no win situation into a ‘perceived’ victory.

      By adopting an ‘aggregation of marginal gain’ strategy,she is ever so surely,achieving improvements for our country,albeit,in small,incremental steps.

      We will look back on these times in an Independant Scotland and only wonder why anyone ever doubted.

      In Sturgeon we trust,keep the faith.

    57. David Mills says:

      If nothing else it well play into SLAB/Tory instincts take immediately opposite side on tax leave SNP government in the sane middle ground steering a course of care management and social justice
      Well place to step out of the oppressive shadow on this union and it delusions of empire baggage. To stand proud on the world stage.

    58. Bob Mack says:

      @Heedtracker,

      Add to your list EVEL. It appears the Tories are setting themselves up to be the only electable Westminster Party for many years to come. Labour’s election chances are being scuppered in front of their very eyes and they do nothing but come up with one ludicrous idea after another.. This can only help the independence cause when Tory after Tory government take charge.

    59. Onwards says:

      @muttley79

      They would have done that anyway.
      Next time it will be federalism as a last minute compromise.

      The Scottish Government has to argue that real nationhood offers many advantages over federal regions similar to Yorkshire or whatever is proposed.

    60. heedtracker says:

      Blair McDougall ?@blairmcdougall 6h6 hours ago
      Blair McDougall Retweeted The Daily Record
      Big news. All parties united behind Barnett. Now let’s get on with using powers.

      Pretty much another UKOK day at the office from UKOK bullshitters like Bliar here.

      What’s the red tory grand plan? Blame SNP for blue tory austerity UK and demand tax hikes on Scots, to pay for it, or exact same as yesterday.

    61. Not Convinced says:

      muttley79 says @ 8:27 pm
      The Vow was deliberately kept vague, sure they said Devo max/close to federalism etc,

      From a certain perspective it doesn’t matter what they actually said, it matters what people believe they said. Now this can go either way, if people think it was only “more powers” then this can be used against the SNP but it people think it was “as much power as possible” then it can be used against Westminster.

      … and so long as future Scottish Governments aren’t stupid (so SLAB need not apply!), then any devolution is just an incremental step towards independence. Devolution becomes, as some have said, “a one way street to independence”. Though personally I think Alex Salmond phrased it better by pointing out that if the Scottish Parliament & Government keep acquiring new powers then ultimately the final step to independence isn’t a very big one.

    62. Dan Huil says:

      Yet britnats STILL believe more devolution will kill Scottish nationalism “stone dead”! I hope they never learn.

    63. Dan Huil says:

      Many in England will see this as Scotland getting more than it deserves. Many in England know Scotland is very pro-EU. Many in England will vote Leave in the EU referendum as a way of getting back at the Scots?

    64. Legerwood says:

      heedtracker says:
      23 February, 2016 at 7:38 pm
      “English media’s not reporting it at all. Looks like even C4 teatime news are not bothering.”

      Channel 4 news did report it which quite surprised me as did
      BBC 6 o’clock news. In fact I have noticed that the latter has been reporting a Scottish item just about every night over the last two weeks which is a bit of a departure and tonight when they were reporting on the new strikes called by the doctors they mentioned several times in the report that it was doctors in England who were going on strike. Not noticed them making that so clear before.

    65. Graeme Doig says:

      Like many here I would have happily told them to shove their condescending offerings.

      Just as well it was John and Nicola doing the talking. I think they have come out of the whole Smith charade with a great PR victory.

      I don’t think the agreement will do our cause much good but their pragmatic display just might.

    66. Alastair says:

      I think twice Nicola asked officially for a face to face with Cameron.
      Did it happen?

    67. I personally trust the SNP,(as far as anyone can trust a political party). I am not privy to their reasoning or to thier strategy behind their decision. But I am confident enough to support it, the ultimate reasons for this being that I know they have Scotland’s best interests at heart.

    68. Dan Huil says:

      @Alistair 9:25pm

      Which one of Cameron’s faces do you mean, Alistair?

    69. heedtracker says:

      Though personally I think Alex Salmond phrased it better by pointing out that if the Scottish Parliament & Government keep acquiring new powers then ultimately the final step to independence isn’t a very big one.

      But the fact is, say there had never been Scottish referendum 2014? Any fiscal difference to Scotland since then til now,

      Is there any actual useful devo from before Sept 2014 than from before or after?

      The only real difference in Scotland today is electoral, with SNP majority Scots. gov and near complete wipe out of Westminster unionists from Scotland.

      So there is a clear pattern here. Scots electoral sea change, but real power held where it always was and all of it maintained by defrauding the Scots electorate with a corrupt UK media.

      Naturally unionists in Scotland are going to make Scotland change back to red tory again and this is what happened today. Osborne won UKOK again today by giving up nothing but pretending to withhold a lot.

      Clever yoons.

      Why are we, the Scottish electorate not now be asked if their The Vow has been delivered, at the ballot box? Its nice to dream of a democracy.

      SNP x 2 though.

    70. jimnarlene says:

      Dan Huil says:
      23 February, 2016 at 9:32 pm
      @Alistair 9:25pm

      Which one of Cameron’s faces do you mean, Alistair?

      The pig’s, perhaps?

    71. jimnarlene says:

      OT, but a good cause, and funny too..

      http://www.indiegogo.com/projects/the-north-british-news#/

    72. Cactus says:

      Vow delivered?!

      If so and at this point, are they (WM) not supposed to mark it by cutting a ribbon, the pulling of a drawstring curtain or smashing a bottle of champagne off of something, for something so spectacular.

      Anyways, the news is fresh, so best take some time to digest and recap, we’ll see how it plays out in the coming days.. who knows? Most important thing now is to focus all of our independent efforts on voting in May (June may follow.)

      You’ll notice many commenter’s here suggesting voting for the Scottish National Party on both votes in May.. well they’re right and there’s a good reason. In recent times, the Scottish National Party (Scotland) has gained a 45% Yes vote, 56 of 59 MP’s down under and are looking odds-on to steal the show once again in a few months time..

      ..dunno if anybuddies mentioned this word yet, but in business and the internet world it seems to make sense to.. “NETWORK”

      So let’s get the Scottish National Party ‘networking’ throughout Scotland and further afield.. and by the time the council elections come along in 2017, we’ll have all of Scotland in our hands. It’s all about the numbers.

      Eyes forward Scotland.

    73. Les Wilson says:

      Well I guess we will soon see the small print, then we will know exactly what we have and what we do not have.
      I feel though that Nicola and John in particular have worked very hard to solve this beneficially for Scotland.

      I have no doubt that there are powers they can and want to use, Nicola has said this several times.To benefit Scots without the detriment issue being in place is a victory.

      However there will be no place to hide what is not devolved, these will remain an issue as time goes on.

      It is a step, not a rush, they did well not to lose any fingers when dealing with the Treasury, they did well, we will see how that goes as time goes by.

    74. Dr Jim says:

      We only got what was owed..BUT..what the Yookay got was a lesson in real Scottish when our First Minister representing the entirety of Jockland said…..NAW!! ya Bastirts I will not move sideways backways or any other ways GIRFUY

      That’s what the rest of our Gutless so called politicians don’t have, remember every single one of the Labour lot were all for “jist take the powers an wull muddle through”

      I wish I could make smaller wee mingin letters for them

      Kim Jong Davidson was giving it “take the powers offered and trust us for laters” Hah!

      I will be taking the opporchancety to email the FM to congratulate her on her shoving it up them and giving it a twist for good measure, not using those words of course, although I am given to understand the FM is fluent in all forms of the Scottish dialect

      Perhaps others may like to show their appreciation in similar vein
      Just a wee thanks a lot boss, I’m sure would be fine

    75. fletch49er says:

      As if Osborne would come out anything other than ‘happy with the outcome’ to the MSM and the public. Mr Daisley’s display of naivety is par for the course. It’s called acting!

    76. Lollysmum says:

      Nicola gave a lecture today at the David Hume Institute that sets out their thinking about the economy they want to build & their plans for achieving it. Interesting, also lengthy & well worth reading.She’s certainly been a busy bee today 🙂

      http://news.scotland.gov.uk/Speeches-Briefings/First-Minister-s-David-Hume-Institute-speech-22e9.aspx

    77. HandandShrimp says:

      We know the Vow was pish and we know that Fluffy Muddle tried to set bear traps in the fiscal framework.

      However, every step along the way is another realisation that we can do it for ourselves. It is another step towards independence.

      Despite the negativity of the Unionists and the press over Nicola and John digging their heels in on the deal it quickly became apparent who was fighting for Scotland and who would sell us down the river just so they could say “Vow delivered”

      That is something to remind people when canvassing for the May elections. The SNP secured billions more for Scotland. The Unionists as incompetent as ever would, like Esau, have settled for a bowl of stew.

    78. Dan Huil says:

      @ Dr Jim 9:52pm

      Well said, Dr Jim. Also, don’t underestimate the effect this “deal” will have on English public opinion about the Scots. The socio-political gap between Scotland and England continues to grow.

    79. heedtracker says:

      I have no doubt that there are powers they can and want to use,

      Other than raise PAYE, there’s nothing. They could do that anyway and councils can raise council tax if they want to. No change.

      Which is why this is just another great UK lie and meaningless.

      George OsborneVerified account
      ?@George_Osborne
      Just got off phone with @NicolaSturgeon. Historic fiscal deal agreed to give Scotland one of world’s most powerful devolved parliaments

    80. Ken500 says:

      That’s a relief.

      Next

    81. Thepnr says:

      @Cactus

      “Vow delivered?!” naw, and there was never any intention too.

      For the SNP not have accepted a deal once their demands were met was impossible, if they didn’t want a deal they the Smith Commission talks would have failed with no proposal put forward to Westminster.

      I can only guess that despite all the rebuffed amendments as the Bill went through Parliament that the Scottish Government have a plan. I’ll accept that since I have no other choice than to rebel and moan like fcuk.

      That could only prove to be counter productive, I’m willing to support the SNP in the certainty that they know better than I do as to what their overall plan and objectives are.

      See you at the Clutha by the way! 🙂

    82. Ken500 says:

      It’s fine not having to worried about the EU Ref. The rest of the UK votes out. Scotland has another IndyRef. Trident will be going. Scottish Oil sector tax will be cut. Or else.

    83. James Anderson says:

      Not sure that Nicola will not use the powers until 2021. I expect there to be an announcement on a review of personal taxation in Scotland based upon accelerating progression as part of the 2016 manifesto. I think a commitment to replace CT will be rolled in as a ‘package’. So no knee-jerk opportunism as per the Penny Pinch, however, I suspect introduction of a 50% top rate will be implemented for 2017-18.

      There is much could be done that sets the tone, particularly around moving thresholds not just rates; eg, the 40% threshold could be reduced to circa the ‘high value income’ benchmark around £36k from its current £42.4k. And the 45% or new 50% rate band could begin at £120k, £110, or even £100k? Pitiful that the Personal Allowance wasn’t devolved as it would have been a useful tool to close the gap (modestly) between the top and bottom. Point I’m making is that (a) I think the SNP will do something with rates and bands in the next Parliament (b) I don’t think today was insignificant and that those involved had to work extremely hard to secure this result.

      And yes, I whilst I accept income tax alone is sub-optimal for effecting structural change within the economy it is most certainly not worthless; especially given we all bloody pay it!

    84. The Rough Bounds says:

      Well guess what. I still want independence. I still want control of our Scottish Army, Navy and Air Force. I still want control of our gas, coal, oil, agriculture and our fisheries. I still want the part of Scotland’s sea board back that they pinched. I still want control of Scotland’s pension provision, income tax, corporation tax, and every other tax you can think of that affects us. I still want a Scottish voice at the United Nations and in Europe and I still want a Scottish passport.

      And I nearly forgot; I still want the House of Lords dumped into the sea.

    85. Dan Huil says:

      I wish we’d get independence by the end of the week, but I have to remember the SNP have, for the last few decades, taken a step-by-step approach towards the ultimate goal. This is another step towards independence.

      Also, take well-deserved pleasure in hearing the britnats say once again that this latest piece of devolution will stop independence “stone dead”.

    86. galamcennalath says:

      BBC News. Yoons full of the rhetoric that now we will move away from discussing which powers we get to how will these powers be used.

      In their dreams!

      We have been given very little which will be useful. That is of course by design.

      Now we need to talk about the actual powers promised, or Indy.

    87. Iain More says:

      YAWN!!!! Wake me up when we actually get some real powers!!!!

    88. Marie Clark says:

      Don’t understand most of “the deal” at the moment, but I know that I do trust John Swinney and Nicola Sturgeon to do what’s right for Scotland.

      I too would have told the treasury to GTF with all their shennanigans, so it’s just as well it wasn’t down to me to do the negotiating.

      Let the yoons craw as much as they like, it seems like that’s all that they’ve got now. We’re no listenin oany mair. I’ve felt for a long while now that 2020 is about right for indy ref 2.

      Let’s wait and see what happens in June at the EU ref. By the way I was talking to my naw voting sister in law today, and she is absolutely raging about all of this. I gently pointed out to her that some of us did try and tell folk this, but they widnae listen nor open their eyes. “Well, she replied, my bloody eyes are wide open noo” she said. Had a quite smile, better late than never, another to the yes side.

    89. Clapper57 says:

      I would suggest the necessity I feel to voice my opinion , as opposed to the negative term whining , is due to the never ending confrontational rhetoric from Yoons such as Massie, Daisley and Farquharson and of course the other usual suspects.

      Tis they, with their continual snide comments , who seek to stir the pot , hoping to generate a backlash of abuse , and if they succeed , well they then just reiterate the same snide comments in their responses , thus achieving their intended ultimate aim of trying to humiliate further those who choose to challenge them.

      And their never ending cycle begins again.

      I would argue that it is they who are the ones who cannot let go of their Yoon allegiance and at every opportunity the usual Yoon suspects are the ones who instigate the negativity and confrontation.

      It is a common trait among Yoons that they feel compelled to constantly strive to vindicate and justify their Yooniverse . My observation is , tis they who are cult like , as tis they who mindlessly repeat the same illogical crap to justify the continuation of this unworkable union.

      Their comments above reinforce my point , as note they automatically focus on what they assume will be the negative reactions from us , where logically their wrath and negativity should be directed at the duration of time it has taken to implement the promised powers to Holyrood.

      And that blame lies firmly with the Yoons who promoted pre the Indy Referendum the promised extensive powers via the infamous Vow .

      I am sure the chain reaction, that always follows something involving the SNP, will most certainly now be in full swing on Twitter with similar comments from the rest of the Yoon cult . They are nothing if not predictable and is it not extremely IRONIC that the very things they accuse us of being they themselves are guilty of in abundance.

      I could , without even looking at any Yoon Twitter account ,predict exactly the direction they will go via their individual tweets and what they choose to retweet from fellow Yoon cult members.

      They seek to undermine our argument in order to deflect the attention away from their own defective reasoning.

      I see the Yoon culture exists only for those who are by nature Self serving, and sadly the Yoons are also devoid of both passion and pride which inspires and motivates us to continue to voice our support in our united quest for Scotland’s Independence.

    90. thomaspotter2014 says:

      What Roughbounds says@10.22

      It ain’t over till complete Independence but it’s heading in the right direction.

      This is not VOW delivered but everybody knows that.

      Take and use the new powers for the next few months are gonna be a rocky ride for the Westminster Bastards.

      Slowly slowly catchee monkey.

      Not too bad for starters.

      Well done Nicola and John.

      Thanks.

    91. heedtracker says:

      And yes, I whilst I accept income tax alone is sub-optimal for effecting structural change within the economy it is most certainly not worthless; especially given we all bloody pay it!

      Scots are a low wage/high tax economy, very low wage, on average, the lowest in the EU. When we retire, we get the lowest pensions in the EU.

      PAYE and council tax hikes are not a means towards economic growth. If they were, we’d have a UKOK wide growth. Instead its all in the south east.

      So where is corporation tax control for Scotland? That’s sort of lever that create growth, compete with the south east of England etc. Ireland’s a good example of how corp tax can create growth.

      Check out how BBC vote SLab Scotland liars present the UKOK propaganda

      http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-scotland-politics-31700448

      Headline

      “Corporation tax cut pledge dropped by Scottish government”

      Down at the end

      “The first minister told a gathering in Linlithgow that there would now be a focus on “targeted changes in tax allowances.”
      ‘Targeted changes’

      While corporation tax remains reserved to Westminster, the Scottish government has long argued for it to be devolved to Holyrood.”

    92. gerry parker says:

      Will be interesting to hear the Cuthbert’s take on it.

    93. galamcennalath says:

      heedtracker says:

      “PAYE and council tax hikes are not a means towards economic growth. … While corporation tax remains reserved to Westminster, the Scottish government has long argued for it to be devolved to Holyrood.”

      Precisely. I certainly hope the SNP get a robust plan into their manifesto for May proposing they seek some useful devolution (as Cameron et al promised) and make clear the ‘fat lady hasn’t sung yet’!

      And, my fear is that WM tries to spin things out for years and years. We need a proposed timescale, or else …

    94. Brian Powell says:

      The chief Tory negotiator goes on holiday and doesn’t turn up, Mundell turns up late in the day and Labour’s only response is, now the ‘powers’ must be used.

      They crawl on their bellies.

    95. Andrew Mclean says:

      Least we know how long a generation, apparently once every 6 years, who knew?
      Ha ha ha.
      Then back to the drawing board.
      A house divided can not stand.

      As a friend and well Kent unionist journalist said to me last week, who the f voted for the vow, the reason I’m so f mad is we blinked first,! Well he’s right, they did.
      A house divided can not stand.

      So it’s May SNP wipes out the last of the scum, then on to the EU referendum, hopefully we vote the opposite from the rump uk
      A house divided can not stand.

      Then it’s on to 2020 and what’s left to fight, it will be just us or them!
      A house divided can not stand.

      A house divided can not stand, A house divided can not stand.

      Regardless of the pish from the Westminster clan, and the licspitle little journalists who slever at their feet, A house divided can not stand.

      This agreement is a house divided! At last, thank God!

    96. Cactus says:

      @thepnr

      See you at the Clutha by the way! 🙂

      Awerighty dude, aye looking forward to catching up with y’all! 🙂

      I’m away to Off-topic to fire a tune up on the Jukebox..

    97. cearc says:

      Lollysmum,

      great speech, that from Nicola.

      They might not be very extensive powers and obviously a lot less than what we want but it will enable the SG to show that things can be done differently and better.

    98. Ken500 says:

      Labour wants the powers used that they did not want.

    99. Valerie says:

      What a whiny ass, pernicious piece of work that Massie is. His tweets are as sneering as his writing. How sad when you make that your strong point.

      I await the Red Tories screaming to use powers, and raise taxes, lobbying to punish us all as per.

      @ Lollysmum, thanks for link to Nicolas speech today. Clear, cogent vision. What a cut above she is. Mind, the competition ain’t up to much.

    100. Ken Waldron says:

      The Vow promised only one solid thing: A “Permanent” Scottish Parliament and that’s not being delivered.

    101. Andrew Mclean says:

      Ken 500
      Who is this Labour you speak off,
      My granny once spoke of a bunch of reprobates,
      Once were socialist, I think was there moto?
      Labour, nah never heard of them, were they a boy band?

    102. Smallaxe says:

      O/T

      It’s well worth a look at the Indy girls Facebook page to see UKIP make total cringe worthy fools of themselves with a ludicrous song and dance routine.

      Sorry am unable to link.

    103. Fireproofjim says:

      As so many have said – Well done John and Nicola.
      And what hours they put in!
      John was still on Scotland 2016 at 10.30 after a ludicrously long day in Holyrood, while Nicola seemed to be everywhere, and still as sharp,as ever.
      We are lucky to have them and lucky to have such a talented group there and in Westminster.

    104. James Barr Gardner says:

      So the westminster elite almost stole £7.5 million from the Scottish People, well I for one will not forget or forgive these blue/red tories. I’ll vow to vote SNP for the rest of my life.

      Meantime in dear olde london toon alls well with the lizzy line it’s only going to cost £18 million plus, och it’s only money. The sooner we are all out of this all consuming black hole centred on the city of westminster the better, independence for Scotland is long overdue, wake up People of Scotland get involved and cut these chains of injustice.

      May 2016 Vote SNP X 2, EURef vote stay, May 2017 Vote SNP.
      IndRef2 Vote to become independent.
      Let Scotland prosper. Let the Eagle soar over Scotland, unchain the Unicorn !

    105. yesindyref2 says:

      It’s going to be very interesting to see the SNP manifesto. I expect a few surprises, and that Labour and other parties, didn’t.

    106. Legerwood says:

      I see that the Herald is headlining an article saying that Ms Dugdale has already conceded defeat in May’s elections. They appear to base this conclusion on her remarks in that TV interview today.

      Is she now going for the underdog strategy since all else seems to have failed?

    107. Clootie says:

      …how pitiful the sneers of our “Scottish media” on how little Osborne gave away in their claims.
      What about the outrage against their nation if this was the case. No…our media has one master!

    108. pipinghot says:

      Own goal here by the SNP (which I am a member) this has set back the chances of indi by years, foolish to do ‘deals’ with the Tories. Just ask Labour.

    109. ArtyHetty says:

      Just to say, I am pretty sure that my pretendy lefty, labour supporting friends in NE england won’t give a stuff about this Scotland bill, and will still think they are being ripped off by their nigh on ‘fascist’ neighbour.

      But, my Scottish no voting friends will not be able to say that the SNP, Scotgov ran away from a deal. That is also important, that the yoons will have to concede that the SNP gov have thrashed out a deal. After all, it could be worse.

      Still, it does seem bizarre that a country has to beg their neighbour not to rob them anymore than they are already doing, while dictating that they can’t borrow to grow their economy, or even invest in job creation, or have control over immigration. Weird really, when you think about it.

      O/T
      Just finished a fab 6 week geology course on Scotland’s hills, when I told my fence sitting labour voting friends that Scotland is the most diverse and interesting country geologically, in the world, for it’s size, the other day, they just could not compute that. They said, ‘aye, but there must be lots of other diverse, more interesting countries.

      Said it all for me really. Doing down your own country. After 27 years in Scotland, I am just learning about the mindset of some, been ingrained for 100s of years. Time to ditch that.

    110. Fireproofjim says:

      James Barr Gardner@11.23
      It was £7.5 billion, James.
      Like you it adds to the reason I will vote SNP until the pencil is prised from my cold dead hands.
      (Copyright the National Rifle Association, USA)

    111. Paula Rose says:

      @ArtyHetty – having lived here for 32 years it never ceases to amaze me, there really is no other country with this level of mindset.

    112. Angus McRory says:

      Devolution has changed from a London labour policy to pacify Scots through sops to a tory policy that seeks to cut the Scottish budget whilst providing a bogey man to unite voters in England against.

      mundell today looked like a man totally out of touch with Scotland. How have he and his post ended up working to reduce Scotland’s budget and working against Scottish interests?

      Well done John Swinney, he combines hard negotiation with the patience of a saint and good humour whilst putting Scotland first? John deserves a medal!

    113. call me dave says:

      Earlier some said… Yoohtopia! 🙂

      Now deputy underdog concedes May elections.

      https://archive.is/HSU2A

      Well played Sturgeon and Swinney.
      We know who to trust.

      SNP x 2

    114. galamcennalath says:

      We had a referendum in 1997, then the Scotland Act 1998 which reconvened parliament. By the time this Scotland Bill with Smith Lite passes through WM the devolution process will be over 20 years old.

      One view is that increments of enhanced devolution will eventually lead to independence.

      How far will we have travelling in that 20 years in terms of powers? Perhaps optimistically a third of the way?

      If the SNP had not won outright in 2011 how far would be have gone? Less!

      The SNP will not retain an overall majority indefinitely. Unionists will eventually regain the majority and progress will cease or even reverse.

      IMO the gradualist approach alone will probably never reach the end.

      So, what will hasten events along? Something has to, IMO.

    115. call me dave says:

      Just seen this:

      First Minister announces radical shake-up of local government funding

      https://archive.is/szaBB

      She’s a busy woman with a plan.

    116. frogesque says:

      @ ArtyHetty 11.29

      Scotland was the birthplace of the science of Geology.

      Been goldpanning in Scotland for more years than I care to think about. Scotland has far more diversity than most folk realise. Of course we can stand on our own feet. We don’t need Westminster’s shoddy boots holding us back.

      SNP/SNP and still YES!

    117. HandandShrimp says:

      To be fair to Alex Massie, I don’t think we will hear an end to the whining and discontent. It is “SNPbad this, SNPbad that, why can’t the electorate just listen to us and vote for anyone but the SNP.”

      Nope I think he has it nailed. They will be whining a lot more come the 6th of May too. 🙂

    118. heedtracker says:

      And, my fear is that WM tries to spin things out for years and years. We need a proposed timescale, or else …

      Its been a long trip to get back to where Scotland was before the ref, or UKOK status quo. Its also a nagging doubt that UKOK suits our wealthy classes, south and north of the border and in Holyrood. English and Scottish red and blue tory’s will be pretty pleased with their Scotland region tonight. BBC and the rest will do the usual, bury this fraud, bayonet survivors.

      Future UKOK PM Osborne in waiting, an especially happy toryboy.

    119. yesindyref2 says:

      @Valerie
      Massie is a has-been with the misfortune of never having been.

    120. dakk says:

      Start Campbell

      ‘Air Passenger Duty may or may not finally be cut, to little effect either way.’

      That could be said of any or all new powers even under Independence.

      Even if England does cut APD to match Scotland(I read a link for once),given that the UK has the highest in the world,there is still likely to be a net benefit for Scotland and England alike.

      It’s not Corporation Tax,it’s not earth shattering,but it’s a start.

      If the Scottish Gov. can show they can grow the economy with even the minimal powers they have,then it will still be some progress in convincing the timid of our potential,and create new commercial activity/jobs in the meantime.

      This is always going to be a sair fecht,and the SNP will win the war of attrition.

    121. ArtyHetty says:

      Frogesque, absolutely, some people just do not realise how interesting, and wonderful Scotland is, more fool them. They seem to have a love, hate relationship with their own country.

      Yes, SNP x2. I am sure that they have the measure of things, to say the leadt!
      Ever innovative and enlightening.

    122. bookie from hell says:

      “no detriment” is a triumph for sturgeon/swinney(salmond prob advising)

      It will be the first line in future agreements Scotland

      unionists are locked in forever unless they break it

      i understand those that take sillars view more hardlined

      NO won referendum vote,and compromise had to be made

    123. Dave Robb says:

      @ Scottie Dog. – you’ve got the key to the next steps.

      Nicola has proposed a change to LA finance- extra property tax bands, plus an income related element – however funded. This is really important to raise income from fiscally sterile accumulation in the property bubble and to ease the council Tax freeze in a reasonable way.

      Your proposal for an electronic Scottish currency will do 3 things.

      It breaks the monopoly provision of monetary supply from the crooks in the big banks – too big to fail.

      It removes some financial provision from control by the Bank of Britain, and puts it under Scottish Govt. control.

      It informs people that money is not only about accumulation and speculation, but about facilitating the economic cycle for individuals and businesses, to encourage trade, and provide income for ordinary people to provide their needs.

      This “settlement” is not ideal, nor is it the end. It is a start, and with wit and goodwill in Scotland we can make progress for our country.

      The yoon twitterati are irrelevant.

      The many Labour faithful who still cleave to the divided and delusional sham of “Scottish Labour” can be persuaded of a better vision if we start to provide it.

      There are Tories and Libdems who want a better future for Scotland who are not sold on the corrupt “Bullingdon Boy” excesses of Eton alumni and the Bankers, and the destruction of social fabric they espouse.

      This is the beginning, not the end.

    124. ArtyHetty says:

      Least, not leadt, whatever that means.

      Who knows what tomorrow will bring. Night all, sleep tight and just be glad we don’t have liebour in Scotland, making crucial political decisions right now, perish the thought.

    125. Thepnr says:

      Today is a new day. Let’s atart from scratch.

      Embrace the NO voters, even the Tory ones if you hope to reach your ultimate goal.

    126. Dr Jim says:

      @Dan Huil

      A big moat wide and deep to make the gap bigger for all I care, and if the English branch of my family want to visit me they’ll have a nice wee ferry ride built by Fergusons on the Clyde to enjoy as part of their Scottish holiday experience

      Breaks up the monotony of driving

      Kevin Bridges idea of changing the plugs is a good one too (Few bob in that) Signs in Gaelic is good too folk have to stop at the cafes and greasy spoons for directions (Wales does it)

      How about a wee tourist tax,1p for everything with Tartan on it to pay for (Scottish services)
      Every tourist who ignores weather warnings and falls off the hill pays for it (Scottish services)

      But being completely serious, No I can’t…Hah Hah Hah

      Mundells Puss tonight just filled me with joy
      What a little squint of a man

    127. David says:

      In 1997 I voted with the majority in a referendum for the creation of a Scottish Parliament (at that time it had the Labour favoured name and was called an Assembly).

      I also cast my second vote for the assembly to be given tax varying powers. So here we are, finally, over 18 years later with a fiscal framework in place that can potentially allow those little sub Smith commission tax tweaks to be implemented. As it has taken 18 years to get this far I don’t think we should hurry ourselves to stage 2. Lets see how the European thing pans out. I suspect that the only reason we got to the point where the government caved in to the no detriment demand is because David Cameron realised that he needs Scotland’s support to win his EU referendum.

    128. Ian M says:

      It seems as we went into negotiations about our pocket money and where we used to get 10p coins we are still about the same except that we now get pound coins and they fit the slot machines.
      We are so lucky to have Nicola and John
      The other politicians are playing draughts the SNP are playing chess

    129. heedtracker says:

      This is always going to be a sair fecht,and the SNP will win the war of attrition.

      But its all over now. The settled will of the Sottish people and anyone else living here during the ref, has decided that England will remain in control of their Scotland region. The only place this might change is in Westminster over the next 5 years. Who knows what upcoming battling over Brexit tory governments might do, who they might need to get it done and what they might give up for it all.

    130. Onwards says:

      heedtracker says:
      23 February, 2016 at 10:46 pm

      And yes, I whilst I accept income tax alone is sub-optimal for effecting structural change within the economy it is most certainly not worthless; especially given we all bloody pay it!
      —–

      The thing with income tax is that it gets people used to the idea that Scottish taxes should go to Scotland. The thin end of the wedge. It’s the most visible tax, and there was plenty of unionist opposition to devolving it previously.

      Agreed it’s not much use on its own, and raising it higher than the rest of Britain could be hugely damaging if they go down that path.

      But even with little change, it sets a precedent and it helps to build loyalty to Scotland. Not just politically but practically.

      We could well see a rise in the sale of Scottish products here, as that will support more Scottish jobs with employees taxes going towards local schools and hospitals.
      Perhaps we might even see more saltires in the supermarket for a change – if companies realize it leads to a bigger sales boost.

    131. Kenny says:

      Well, Scotland sailed today just that tiny bit further away from Westminsterland and inched a wee bitty closer towards Scandinavia… Another chip in the union…

      It seems so little but it is funny how, in times of crisis, the little powers you have can suddenly grow into enormous proportions…

      I wonder if the SNP has its own roadmap of when they think we will be strong enough to hold a winning indyref vote? It is always hard to predict the future, of course, but the years 2020 and 2021 seem to keep reoccuring (me? i say 2018!).

      I also wonder what might happen if the EU referendum result is VERY close, enough for postal ballots to swing the result, for example, so that the Tories really get down to some good infighting? * Could be good for another few percentage points in favour of indy up here… And, as we know from today, every little bit helps!

      [* not that I wish any detriment to the good people of England, of course, and it can only benefit UKIP, which would be a nightmare to have well represented in our UKOK parly-thing]

    132. heedtracker says:

      Onwards says:
      24 February, 2016 at 12:22 am
      heedtracker says:
      23 February, 2016 at 10:46 pm

      You may well be right and I hope so too. Anything Scottish will be loathed by britnats in Scotland, look at the messy online rage at something like the new Forth Bridge.

      I hoped SNP would fuck them off today completely and tell them to come back after the EU ref.

      And I hoped they would not give way on something like corp tax that really could be make a massive difference to Scots, especially Scots living with unemployment, for generations. But no.

      Our imperial masters just cannot permit competition in their UK, competition that pulls investment away from their super heating south east pf England. And thats either fantastic or disgusting, but we’re stuck with it now and for a long long time.

    133. Paula Rose says:

      @ Thepnr Honey – you can stop hugging the tories now, unless it’s our lovely tartan one.

    134. dakk says:

      That link you created Stuart, about England moving to match Scotland’s possible APD removal will hopefully demonstrate how decentralising economic levers can benefit all including rUK in ridding us of a destructively high indirect tax.

      What gives me real hope though is still meeting exLabour and RISE people who are so much more politically active in promoting independence for Scotland than I have ever been,and I have wanted Independence all my adolescent and adult life.

      Better get back to my SNP handler to proffer my services for the Holyrood elections or I couldn’t show face on here again.

    135. yesindyref2 says:

      It’s very annoying when you want to post something but decide it’s better to sit on your hands and wait and see for another 3 or 4 weeks. And it might not even happen!

      Yes I agree, hug a NO voter.

    136. dakk says:

      ‘And I hoped they would not give way on something like corp tax that really could be make a massive difference to Scots, especially Scots living with unemployment, for generations. But no.’

      The NO voting majority give us a weak hand no matter how hard Scot Gov negotiate.

      Maybe Scot Gov could have tried to horse trade Corp Tax for no detriment,perhaps they did and failed.

    137. Onwards says:

      galamcennalath says:
      23 February, 2016 at 11:42 pm

      We had a referendum in 1997, then the Scotland Act 1998 which reconvened parliament. By the time this Scotland Bill with Smith Lite passes through WM the devolution process will be over 20 years old.

      One view is that increments of enhanced devolution will eventually lead to independence.

      How far will we have travelling in that 20 years in terms of powers? Perhaps optimistically a third of the way?
      ..

      ——–

      I don’t see any realistic way other than a gradualist path now.
      We had a chance in 2014 and it wasn’t to be.

      The current oil situation doesn’t make it any easier for a short term rerun. And looking at the polls, realistically we have to wait for more younger voters to come through. Unfortunately, still too many old folks stuck in their ways after a lifetime of ‘too wee, too poor’ conditioning. And still too many cringers.

      Something has to change before the next shot, and if that means going further down the devolution road then so be it.
      All the SNP can do is prove that Holyrood is a success and build confidence for full self-government.

      We have still come a long way in 20 years.
      The SNP was at 20% in the polls back then with a handful of MP’s and no Scottish parliament. Look at the progress since then. And the referendum.. Despite the result, it has changed everything. The close outcome is seen as unfinished business, and Labour has been replaced as Scotland’s natural party of government.

      The Scottish Parliament now exists not just to govern Scotland, but to defend Scottish interests against Westminster. And independence is still the big idea. The ambition to become a normal country in the world.

      There isn’t much that can compete with that as a long term vision for Scotland. It’s not just about the economy, but about democracy, dignity and self-respect as a nation. Standing as equals.

      Until we reach that destination, the SNP will always have the aspirational high ground.

    138. geeo says:

      Regarding the new plan for Local Authorities, linked to above (can’t recall who by,sorry).

      This will clearly define the councils who waste cash and generally just try to blame the SNP government for the mess they themselves created.

      The constituants will look at other councils who are w0rking hard to make their council areas much better places to invest etc, and quickly realise that their OWN councils are simply making a CHOICE not to improve their own area.

      If those councils seem to be politically motivated to be ‘dragging their heels’ (hoping to blame SNP gov for the mess in that area, i am pretty sure that voters will quickly rail against them, especially when the SG can simply point out the successes of other councils actually working WITH the SG to deliver a better service to the people.

      Kills the generalisation of ‘SNP BAD’ stone dead, and makes councils actually accountable at long last.

      Got to love this Scottish Government team, hardly got one deal sorted and moving swiftly on to the next plan.

      Big stuff is given the same respect as the smaller stuff, and I for one like that.

    139. Ghillie says:

      Daisie, Massie and Farquie can all away and boil their heids.

      I (and ALL the SNP supporters I have ever met) are grateful for the incredibly strong and hard working SNP team that have Scotland’s interests at heart.

      John Swinney and Nicola Sturgeon have done us proud in VERY difficult circumstances.

      Try as Westminster might…they will NEVER get the better of us.

      Scotland is well along the Road to Independence = )

      SNP+SNP

    140. Jim Morris says:

      We now have five years to establish a fair tax share for Scotland. IMO this should be based on the amount of tax which should be raised by a system which is not corrupt and which includes a fair estimate of what should be paid without non-dom, tax evasion or tax avoidance schemes. If rUk only gathers in 80% of their tax, the shortfall should not be made up if Scotland manages to gather in a higher percentage of ours. The difference should be a bonus to Scotland for good citizenship.

    141. mealer says:

      Independence is a process.The referendum was a giant leap forward in that it forced people to look at the possibility of independence.It allowed many people,particularly younger people,to open their minds.

      Yesterday’s deal is another,smaller,step on a long and winding path.Short cuts will appear again in the future.

    142. Ken500 says:

      Now the fight begins about how the money from Scotland is spent by Westminster. Trident/illegal wars, tax evasion/banking fraud. HMRC is not fit for purpose. A shambles.

      Introduce Minimum pricing. A sugar tax. Cut the 60% tax on the Scottish Oil sector. Another Indy Ref if the rest of the UK vote to leave the EU. Control of welfare to stop the vulnerable being sanctioned.

      It’s like the ‘little Red Hen’. The SNP has to fight all the way to make Scotland a better place. Labour/Unionists fight them all the way. Then the Unionists want to know how the powers will be used that they did not want.

      It’s fine watching the rest of the UK hypocrites fighting over the EU. The NO are like lemming falling over a cliff in total denial. It is surreal. Another Westminster farce. A Party tearing itself and the UK economy to bits. Vote NO you get nothing.

      Next to clear out Holyrood and the Councils of the Unionist wasters.

    143. Ken500 says:

      Corp tax and VAT are no big deal. Corp tax is around 20% in most countries. The EU wants to standardise VAT (20%) in all EU countries for fair trade.

      It’s bigger issues like Trident/illegal wars. Illegal wars causing migration and suffering. Costing £Billions. UK foreign policy. UK/US and France bombing the Middle East to bits. Supporting despot absolute Monarchies and appartheid States which deny people the vote.

    144. Breeks says:

      For 15 years my business has floundered beneath a layer of local corruption, incompetence, and nepotism which aspyxiates business like an oil slick suppresses the oxygen in a pond or water course.

      On 4 occassions, I have felt desperate enough to seek help from my Government, which happens to be SNP. As a firm supporter of Independence, I looked forward to a degree of justice something like a mere drop of detergent dispersing oil on the surface of a pool of water. I didn’t expect that justice to last, the corruption is endemic, but even a few gasps of fresh air was so very important just to keep me going.

      Instead I got nothing. Worse than nothing. The people who should have helped me were gullible, weak, and insipid, and bought every line of dishonest crap used to discredit me from those I accused. Think about it. 15 years of injustice, and my champions for a free and just Scotland won’t even answer one single question asked of them. Not a single one.

      You still think our affairs are safe in the hands of Mr Swinney? Why not give Fergus Ewing a go? Or Paul Wheelhouse? Let me know how you get on.

      All it takes for evil to prevail is that good men do nothing.

    145. CameronB Brodie says:

      Meanwhile the Scottish Parliament will get to control road signs, which will also stay the same, except maybe for slightly more Gaelic.

      Ach well, from small acorns….an umwelten can grow to be defined a nation again. Bet the Yoons didn’t see that one coming. 😉

    146. CameronB Brodie says:

      P.S. I never thought I’d see the day I would be trying to crack gags about semiotics. In public! 🙂

    147. Andrew Mclean says:

      Breeks

      About 12 years ago, I took a sealed tender into a local housing association in Glasgow, near parkhead, I spoke to the housing manager, well that was a revelation, apparently a councillors wife had got a new car, so he opened the envelope in front of me whilst handing me the competitors bid, I was half the price. Guess who got the contract!.

      I told a friend who was a police officer at the time and he said I was talking crap!
      But this was not restricted to GCC Monklands was once the most corrupt council in Europe, and that’s a fact. I remember one brave female journalist who campaigned against them, she got shifted out fast once the council cancelled the advertising contracts.

      Could tell more, but it’s probably best I don’t. By the way, do they still use the ubiquitous brown envelope stuffed with cash, suppose held on by a fridge magnet!

    148. ronnie anderson says:

      Playing TIG with Foxes you,ll always be HET.

      And in the words of the Speaker HoC 1707

      WE HAVE CATCHED SCOTLAND.
      & theres no danger of them letting us walk away, as Thepnr says 8.45,

      Scottish Gov should,nt have entered Talks at the Smith Commission stage.Cameron made the Promises it was up to them to deliver on those promises , otherwise what was the point of Smith.

      Meanwhile Scottish Revenues flow South, at this rate Daisies will be growing over ma wee Urn, wise up SG.

    149. louis.b.argyll says:

      Yes, a small step..but progress where we could have had none.

      More devolved, closer to independence.

      The Treasury now at arms length,we’ll see them coming from now on.

    150. Breeks says:

      I’m not West Coast, but I believe you Andrew. 100%

      Just imagine if the SNP set up a governmental portfolio to address Counter Propaganda and Corruption. A Scottish FBI if you like…
      Never do it of course, its seems they might be percieved as Nazis and our BBC government would shut it down.

    151. Ken500 says:

      The UK tax system is a shambles. Corrrupt. Westminster is corrupt. Westminster has been illegally and secretly taking the equivalent of £Billions from Scotland. Westminster kept it secret under the Official Secrets Act and lied about it. Still do. Scotland would have been Independent years ago.

      People who have been unfairly treated under the UK tax system have appealed to Lord Hamilton. To no avail. It is under Westminster governance. People can lose £thousands because of ‘mistakes’ in the tax system. Small businesses can be the worse affected. The corruption in local authorities who waste £Millions on grotesque projects and then claim there Is no money for essential services is endemic.

    152. gerry parker says:

      While Westminster is absorbing the shock of being out maneuvered by the SG negotiation team, we should now look at excise duty on alcohol and tobacco.

      The Nhs and police in Scotland bear the brunt of the problems abuse and use of these substances cause. Both the police and Nhs Scotland are fully devolved.

      It is time to make a case for these duties to be collected and distributed by the Scottish government.

    153. Fran says:

      Osborne is hoping the SNP will have run out of steam by 2021 and will have a tame Slab to negotiate with. Then he will see that as a chance to claw back the billions he has just “lost” out on.

    154. galamcennalath says:

      Ken500 says:

      It’s bigger issues like Trident/illegal wars. Illegal wars causing migration and suffering. … Supporting despot absolute Monarchies and apartheid States which deny people the vote.

      Agree completely. In the clear light of morning I feel Scotland is a long long way from disassociating itself from this stinking corrupt Union.

      I sincerely hope the SNP go into the May elections with a stronger message that, “vote for us, we are quite good at running things”.

    155. call me dave says:

      Mundell asked twice on GMS to justify why Scotland was to be worse off by £7m over 10yrs but just ignored the question.

      BBC insisting to Swinney that the vow has been delivered and that Gordon Brown had no involvement as he only promised ‘near home rule’. New powers to swing in asap eg: APD.

      Swinney trying hard against the interuptions to set out his position and not accepting that the new powers will kick in immediately, looking to at least 2017, at best estimate.

      Big Brian wheeled in to put us all in the picture at the end.

    156. call me dave says:

      Torquil of the Record on GMS says Swinney wins and vow delivered but what will the SNP whine about now?

      Gordon Brown was not part of the vow. 🙂

    157. Ken500 says:

      Westminster are still taking £10Billion a year out of Scotland.

      £4Billion in debt repayment Scotland doesn’t borrow or spend. £1Billion Trident/illegal wars (military). Scotland could save £1Billlion a tax on ‘loss leading’ drink/minimum pricing. Tax evasion £3Billion? a sugar tax could save money on healthcare.

      Scotland raises £54Billion. Gets £30Billion back + £16Billon on (UK) pension/benefits. Pays £4Billion on debt repayments on money not borrowed or spent in Scotland. £4Billion Defence.

      UK raises £515Billion in taxes. Take £54Billion from £515Billion = £461Billion divide by 11 (11/12 rest of the UK pop) = £42Billion (pro rata). Rest of the UK raises £461Billion and borrows and spends £90Billion? more. NI (2 million pop) raises £28Billion and gets £14Billion (50% more) =
      £42Billion. Scotland would be spending £80Billion (pro rata).

    158. galamcennalath says:

      Onwards says:

      “Something has to change before the next shot, and if that means going further down the devolution road then so be it.”

      I agree. However I see the ‘devolution road’ as simply treading water while we wait for ‘something to change’.

      We can take Indy anytime we choose.

      We have to be given devolution by WM to make any progress with that. The experience of the last couple of years is that WM are not at all keen on enhancing devolution. IMO we are damn close to the point where they say, “no more”.

      There probably will be no ‘going further down’ anywhere with WM holding the reins.

      The ‘devolution road’ builds confidence and focuses people’s minds on Holyrood. Yes, it is worthwhile activity.

      However, in itself will never lead to anything like Home Rule. They just will never devolve that level of powers. The evidence is lying before us on how difficult they make it.

    159. Fred says:

      Just heard “Honest John” Swinney on the wireless being interrogated/interrupted by the waspish & bitchy Gary Robertson, some day somebody will banjo this clown. John, ever the gentleman, repeatedly calls Robertson, Gary! big mistake John, a sign of weakness, he never calls you John!

      If this Scottish Six is ever delivered I fully expect that none of the present crop of presenters at Pacific Quay are allowed anywhere near it, Garyina included!

    160. Sinky says:

      Regarding Torquil Chrichton et al, worth reading Martin Hannah’s valedictory article in yesterday’s Edinburgh Evening News

      “I am proud of the fact that whenever I have written about politics, I have disclosed my membership of the SNP – once again, I repeat my call for all political columnists, editors and reporters to openly state their political adherence.”

    161. One_Scot says:

      ‘Torquil of the Record on GMS says Swinney wins and vow delivered but what will the SNP whine about now?

      Hmm, maybe the fact that these powers will barely heat a light bulb, and, I don’t know, how about the blindingly obvious fact that Scotland is not Independent, that might be a good staring point, but what do I know, I’m no knuckle dragging Yoon.

      Jeez, if these Yoons had half a brain they could probably do themselves a serious injury.

    162. Weechid says:

      Do Farquharson, Massie and Daisley actually live in Scotland? If so – why? They obviously have nothing but contempt for Scotland and the Scots.

    163. orri says:

      This isn’t the Vow. This is a movement of some small control of revenue raising powers from London to Edinburgh. Let’s not get carried away here and allow them to flimflam us.

      Of course the EU had a lot to do with this in that as that campaign really heats up it’s in the best interests of those who want to remain in to at least pretend that the larger body can be trusted to deliver what it promises to the smaller. Not that the anti’s in the rUK can easily point to their own mendacity as why any deal made with the EU isn’t to be relied upon. At the same time though the whole problem with the English, in particular, attitude is that they operate from the position that if you are in the majority you can bugger the rest and fully expect to get humped in return.

      OT but I’m actually coming to the conclusion that I’m sick of having Scotland’s parliament being referred to as “devolved” not only for the slightly negative connotations in relation to the word “evolved” but because, love him or loath him, Brown had it on the button when he talked about “Pooling and Sharing”. Westminster is not the source of all power in the UK or Scotland. The people are. Other than the abomination of the House of Lords we elect representatives and delegate them a portion of our sovereignty. There is no devolution there is repatriation or even a withdrawal of authority from Westminster.

    164. Petra says:

      Well I suppose that’s it. The ‘extensive new powers’ Vow has been delivered, as per individual definition of the term. That’s the one promised by the Daily Liar and the 3 Amigos – Cameron, Clegg and Miliband. Two of them out on their arkies now and one following close behind.

      The OTHER Vow that many No voters believed in, totally different from the aforementioned, involved newspapers such as the Daily Record brainwashing people into believing that Gordon Brown’s ‘Home Rule’, Jackie Bird’s ‘Devo Max’ and the three amigos vague promise were all rolled into one super-duper deal for the Scots. ‘Duper’ being the underlying key word.

      Now of course we’ll have the Daily Record inform us all once AGAIN that the Vow has been delivered and have to listen to people like Mundell and Murray tell the Scots that ‘Scotland has the most powerfully devolved Government in the World’.

      Nicola Sturgeon’s job now, with the help of her many supporters, is to get more realistic data / hard facts across to the ‘Scotland is too wee, poor and stupid, brigade.

      As an example I was talking to someone recently that had no idea that our income tax went to the Treasury, that Scotland had paid more per capita than NI, Wales and England over the last 34 years, didn’t have a clue about our many assets and how we’re being robbed blind with much of our revenue going into Westminster’s coffers. Additionally with the constant harping on of ‘England GIVING Scotland a ‘block grant of money’ seemed to think that Scotland couldn’t survive without England at all.

      He’s not alone in his way of thinking. Many people still seem to think that Scotland is in full control of all, 100%, economic levers, Welfare and so on and have no idea that SLab put paid to many areas being devolved to Scotland during the Smith talks. It’s imperative, imo, that the SNP simplify their language and just basically outline the true situation. List our assets, what we have control of / don’t have control of (statistics), what happens to our revenues and so on.

      Finally I just want to thank John Swinney and Nicola Sturgeon for all they’ve done for Scotland. Worked their butts off to get the best deal possible for US against ALL odds that is from members of their own Parliament, the corrupt media and Westminster.

      Under the circumstances I think that’s exactly what they’ve achieved and it was no mean feat. Until such time as we get our Independence I’m sure they’ll continue to fight for Scotland …. for more powers …. at every turn.

      And what can we do? Vote SNPx2 in May and NO to Brexit in June.

    165. Petra says:

      @ Sinky says at 8:52 am …. ”A great front page in The National this morning. A win for team scotland…… ”

      http://www.thenational.scot/news/a-win-for-team-scotland-john-swinney-nails-fiscal-deal-by-seeing-off-7bn-treasury-grab.14167

      Does the Daily Record, Torcuil Chrichton et all agree with Gordon MacIntyre-Kemp?

      ‘Chief executive, Business for Scotland, Gordon MacIntyre-Kemp said: “We have sprung the fiscal trap and it can only be good news that there will be no detriment to Scotland.

      “But it’s still not the devolution we were promised and it does not deliver the economic and social levers essential for real growth and equality for Scotland.

      “You just have to look at the unworkable 1p tax rise suggested by Labour, which clearly demonstrates the limited nature of the proposed tax powers. There is no sensible way to actually use these powers.

      “Businesses and people in Scotland want real devolution and the parties should consider a unified call from Holyrood for a complete re-evaluation of the powers.”

    166. sensibledave says:

      heedtracker at 7:38 pm

      You wrote “Is it important to England?”

      Now hear me out here Heedy! You, and many others above, are surprised at the lack of “news” coverage following the agreement. I am not making any political point here, I am just responding to your question.

      So, in essence, to most English people, the Agreement simply doesn’t represent “news”. To most, this is what happened:

      1 There were calls for a referendum on Independence in Scotland
      2 There was a referendum in Scotland
      3 The No vote won
      4 There were some things promised in the event of a No vote
      5 Those things were discussed
      6 Those things have been finalised and agreed

      …. to most, they lost interest and no longer followed matters after 4. above….. so 5 & 6 are not news.

      Many Wingers live in a “bubble” where Scottish Independence is at the centre of their thoughts and lives – the other 57.5 million people in the UK do not.

      This position is highlighted by Dan Huil at 9.17 above

      He wrote: Many in England will see this as Scotland getting more than it deserves. Many in England know Scotland is very pro-EU. Many in England will vote Leave in the EU referendum as a way of getting back at the Scots?

      Dan couldn’t be more wrong if he tried! I think the one thing most English voters will not be considering when they vote in the EU referendum – is the position in Scotland. To think otherwise is to be totally deluded.

      Before you respond Heedy, read the above. IF you disagree with any particular point raised then please let me know – but don’t shoot the messenger.

    167. Ken500 says:

      Willy Young, ‘the money I get from the Scottish Gov. ‘I’ The cheek of it.

      ACC is spending £26Million paying off AECC debts. Planning to spend £300Million on another CC. Spending £Millions on a carbuncle in the City Centre. leased back. Refused a Gift of £80Billion to predestrianse the City Centre. Block a (funded) Community Football Stadium (Conference C?) South of the City. The Bridge over the Don is late and £2Million over budget. The Council sold of a minor road which could have been maintained. The Developer shut the crossing causing traffic chaos. Spending £30Million renovating an Art Gallery. Have £Millions in reserves. Yet claim to have no money for essential services. The casting vote is a Green. Against the majority wishes and the public interest.

      Oil tax is 30% + a 30% supplementary tax = 60% Losing thousands of jobs. The price has fallen 75%. Tax should be in relationship to the price.

      The Scottish Gov is funding the essential by-pass road after 30 years. Labour/dominated Cosla funded Aberdeen/shire 30% less than every other local authority for over 30 years.

    168. Valerie says:

      @weechid 9.19

      Good question! They could do their bitching from anywhere!

      I’m fortunate I’m not chasing work, because I genuinely fear what is happening down south, and would not choose to live there now. I have never felt like that until the past two years.

    169. MJS Dundee says:

      Torquil, we know him well and can’t be surprised, but what I picked up on was that the BBC presenter opened the session with a “Vow Delivered” declaration.

      Torquil and his ilk are trivial in the wider scheme of things compared with the incessant institutional bias delivered into our homes by the BBC.

      I’m minded of the long term study/inquiry undertaken into instititional racism at the Met in London. Be interesting to expose BBC Scotlandshire to a similar inquiry and I’m pretty sure we’d get an identical result. e.g. Relatively few on the wrong side of balance as individuals, but an entire institutional culture set up to deliver bias, with few of the individuals even aware of their collective net effect.

      Aye well, we’re used to it, fighting back and guess who’s winning … ? : )

      That would be a 2 x SNP in May wethinks …

    170. Helena Brown says:

      Morning Senseless, never a truer word have you spoken, we are an irrelevance to England, but somehow you never seem to realise you always were to us, but still we get to experience the news about English Education, the English Health Service, English History is thrust down our throats as if we had none of our own.
      I would have been happier and all us Wingers who DO NOT LIVE IN A HERMETICALLY SEALED BUBBLE if we had been allowed without let or hindrance by Westminster to have gone our own ways circa 19th September and without this ridiculous Vow, allegedly and supposedly subscribed to by David Cameron et al.
      Well you are stuck with us, and should the United Kingdom be forced to remain in the EU by us, I would suggest you and your countrymen and women suck it up as we have had to, well sort of. Our fight continues, maybe it will be such a suprise to the ignorance of your fellow countrymen when we do become Independent, I know you wished it.

    171. heedtracker says:

      sensibledave says:
      24 February, 2016 at 9:43 am
      heedtracker at 7:38 pm

      You wrote “Is it important to England?”

      Now hear me out here Heedy!

      I do sensible. In effective, your stuff merely reflects just how dishonest yoons and their unionism really is. England cannot give up control of Scotland. Its that simple.

      In detail, why did Scotland have to negotiate a “fair” deal from England sensible and so on. If England had succeeded yesterday, England would have taken at least £7 bn from Scotland, a direct and clear attempt to use the great The Vow fraud to harm Scotland.

      So do you see the fraud now sensible?

      We are shackled to a country that deliberately set out to harm us yesterday, after begging and threatening us to vote NO and let them continue to control us.

      It wont last. We wont let it.

    172. Robert Peffers says:

      @Roddy Macdonald says: 23 February, 2016 at 7:13 pm:

      … Wee Ruthie: “£7Bn cuts? Whatever you say, George.”

      That should be, “Yes George! Yer Honour, Sir, but shouldn’t it be £14 bn?

      “Kez: “What’s a Fiscal Framework?”

      That should be, “Isn’t a Fiscal Framework the wooden frame round my makeup mirror”?

    173. Bob Mack says:

      The Vow, ,and this is the important word coming up, has been PARTIALLY delivered.

      I care not a jot what the people in England think. I care about what the Smith Commission agreed to post referendum. I care the Smith Commission recommendations were ripped apart by the Commons and the Lords because they went back on their word.

      England and her citizens may not be the least concerned by those facts,but I am.

      It is but another small step on the road to self determination,and nothing more.

    174. Robert Peffers says:

      @muttley79 says: 23 February, 2016 at 7:27 pm:

      “Can someone please explain why the SG/SNP have done this?”

      No – because they haven’t given anything away.

    175. G H Graham says:

      Now that we have control of the most important of matters, road signs, I’m looking forward to the Scottish Government’s decision to finally remove any mention of Dunipace & Denny.

    176. Dan Huil says:

      More than ever it’s SNP x 2.

    177. sensibledave says:

      heedtracker at 10:09 am

      I knew you couldn’t respond to my comments – you would have to go off on the same old diatribe that you repeat umpteen times a day.

      Heedy, I wasn’t commenting on the politics, the fairness or otherwise – or anything else. I responded to your question – and answered it succinctly. You may not like the answer, you may even be appalled. But was my answer wrong?

    178. Petra says:

      Well I suppose that’s it. The ‘extensive new powers’ Vow has been delivered, as per individual definition of the term. That’s the one promised by the Daily Liar and the 3 Amigos – Cameron, Clegg and Miliband. Two of them out on their arkies now and one following close behind.

      The OTHER Vow that many No voters believed in, totally different from the aforementioned, involved newspapers such as the Daily Record brainwashing people into believing that Gordon Brown’s ‘Home Rule’, Jackie Bird’s ‘Devo Max’ and the three amigos vague promise were all rolled into one super-duper deal for the Scots. ‘Duper’ being the underlying key word.

      Now of course we’ll have the Daily Record inform us all once AGAIN that the Vow has been delivered and have to listen to people like Mundell and Murray tell the Scots that ‘Scotland has the most powerfully devolved Government in the World’.

      Nicola Sturgeon’s job now, with the help of her many supporters, is to get more realistic data / hard facts across to the ‘Scotland is too wee, poor and stupid, brigade.

      As an example I was talking to someone recently that had no idea that our income tax went to the Treasury, that Scotland had paid more per capita than NI, Wales and England over the last 34 years, didn’t have a clue about our many assets and how we’re being robbed blind with much of our revenue going into Westminster’s coffers. Additionally with the constant harping on of ‘England GIVING Scotland a ‘block grant of money’ seemed to think that Scotland couldn’t survive without England at all.

      He’s not alone in his way of thinking. Many people still seem to think that Scotland is in full control of all, 100%, economic levers, Welfare and so on and have no idea that SLab put paid to many areas being devolved to Scotland during the Smith talks. It’s imperative, imo, that the SNP simplify their language and just basically outline the true situation. List our assets, what we have control of / don’t have control of (statistics), what happens to our revenues and so on.

      Finally I just want to thank John Swinney and Nicola Sturgeon for all they’ve done for Scotland. Worked their butts off to get the best deal possible for US against ALL odds that is from members of their own Parliament, the corrupt media and Westminster.

      Under the circumstances I think that’s exactly what they’ve achieved and it was no mean feat. Until such time as we get our Independence I’m sure they’ll continue to fight for Scotland …. for more powers …. at every turn.

      And what can we do? Vote SNPx2 in May and NO to Brexit in June.

    179. Robert Peffers says:

      @Thepnr says: 23 February, 2016 at 7:28 pm:

      “This Stephen Daisley is a journalist, a Scottish journalist?”

      Nah! He is the only one who thinks he is. The rest of us know the truth.

    180. heedtracker says:

      sensibledave says:
      24 February, 2016 at 10:26 am
      heedtracker at 10:09 am

      Its a bullshit question or questions sensible. Rewind to 2014, Project Fear rage pouring out of the BBC, Cameron beggin and a weepin to keep Scotland from becoming a nation state, The Vow devo-max shyste suddenly farted out by the ever more hideous Daily Record etc

      And yesterday, we find that same UKOK England were using their The Vow to harm Scotland. Ongoing yoon culture Project Fearing it up here, rages away that Scotland would now be down £7bn if we had voted YES. Or, almost but not quite as much as England tried to rob us of yesterday.

      Would you want to be in this farce union with an England that’s openly trying to damage your country sensibledave?

      You have a giant BBC Scotland led UKOk propaganda battle going on up here in your Scotland region but it can never stop, it can never take a break and it can only get more and more aggressive, until its gone. The majority of Scots have had enough of red and blue tory UK.

      That’s the headline. Anyway sensibledave, you won, England is still in control of Scotland. All that democracy has come to status quo, what it was before Sept 2014, or has it sensible?

    181. sensibledave says:

      Helena Brown 10:07 am

      Hi Helena, you wrote “never a truer word have you spoken”.

      Thank you. Could you have a word with Heedy for me please.

      But then you wrote “we are an irrelevance to England, etc”,

      We keep coming back to this point. What do you mean by “England”? Do you mean me? Do you mean my friends and family, my neighbours, the rest of the people that live in my county, the rest of us that live in the south east, the rest of the good people of England? Or do you mean the majority of MPs elected to serve in Westminster?

      If you mean the former, then the 5 million odd people in Scotland are as relevant (or irrelevant) as 5 million people that live in the Manchester/Liverpool Area, or Birmingham or any other area of the UK where 5 million people might live.

      If you mean the latter, then say so.

      Then you wrote, “but still we get to experience the news about English Education, the English Health Service, English History is thrust down our throats”

      Just so you know, I live to the west and north of London in a place where we are just about as far away from any coastline as it is possible to be on these islands. My BBC “local” news is for an area they call “The South” – so things like “The South Today” are our daily diet. And which major towns are located in “The South” BBC area? Southampton and Portsmouth!!!! So, my “local” news (whilst being about 100 miles from the sea) is about the IOW Hovercraft being cancelled, or a chip pan fire in Southsea or the primary school choir in Fareham that have released a record.

      … so forgive my lack of concern!

      The you wrote “Well you are stuck with us, and should the United Kingdom be forced to remain in the EU by us, I would suggest you and your countrymen and women suck it up as we have had to, well sort of. Our fight continues, maybe it will be such a suprise to the ignorance of your fellow countrymen when we do become Independent, I know you wished it.”

      Just re-read that paragraph Helena. You clearly understand nothing about how English people think.

    182. sensibledave says:

      Heedy 10.37

      You wrote “Anyway sensibledave, you won, England is still in control of Scotland.”

      Heedy, I didn’t “Win” anything. I didn’t want anything. I wasn’t involved in any way whatsoever. Do you not understand that?

      And there lies your problem. You are too stupid to understand the difference between government politicians (in Westminster and Holyrood) and “people” that happen to live in England. I rather suspect that until you grow up, you will be writing your inane babblings until the cows come home.

    183. heedtracker says:

      Heedy, I didn’t “Win” anything. I didn’t want anything. I wasn’t involved in any way whatsoever. Do you not understand that?

      Another sore winner sensibledave.

      UKOK Yoon culture in your Scotland region is a huge morass of bullshit sensible. Thank you for dumping your share of it too.

    184. Robert Peffers says:

      @Brian Doonthetoon says: 23 February, 2016 at 7:59 pm

      “The 700th Anniversary of the Declaration of Arbroath must mean SOMETHING to Scots?”

      Yer Kidding? Right!?

      The majority of Scots don’t even know there was a declaration and those that know it exists could probably only tell you the bit that goes:-

      “for, as long as but a hundred of us remain alive, never will we on any conditions be brought under English rule. It is in truth not for glory, nor riches, nor honours that we are fighting, but for freedom – for that alone, which no honest man gives up but with life itself.”

      When the really important part is :-

      Yet if he, (the King), should give up what he has begun, and agree to make us or our kingdom subject to the King of England or the English, we should exert ourselves at once to drive him out as our enemy and a subverter of his own rights and ours, and make some other man who was well able to defend us our King.

      *

      It is that second paragraph that establishes, in the still independent Scots law, that the people of Scotland are legally sovereign and they have the legal right to throw out the Royal person, or the royal person’s representatives, and appoint another in their place.

      As a sovereign people we have the legal right to claim our independence and, by the way, it is a well established fact of English law that once being sovereign you cannot legally give up your sovereignty.

      This is the fact of English law that forced the English kingdom to become a Constitutional Monarchy in 1688 and retain their monarchy as their head of state but to delegate the royal powers to the English parliament.

      Under English law the monarchy cannot give up sovereignty so has been a only a figurehead since 1688. There is no written evidence that this should be applied to Scotland but Westminster has always just assumed they hold sovereignty over Scotland.

      Nowhere have the sovereign people of Scotland ever given up their legal sovereignty and that is why Westminster is terrified of any referenda on independence.

      Under their own laws they cannot legally prevent it nor legally deny it.

      If we, by a majority, decide to reclaim our sovereignty English law has no option but allow us to take it.

    185. CameronB Brodie says:

      sensibledave
      Now add that introspectiveness I think you allude to, with regards the thoughts of English voters, to the population disparity between Scotland and England and no doubt you will see Britain can never work as a union of equals.

    186. Robert Peffers says:

      @Onwards says: 23 February, 2016 at 8:20 pm:

      “Income tax on its own is pretty much useless, especially now with a future ‘review’ on the way. But the crown estate is worthwhile, as is APD. And the reality of Scottish taxes going to Scotland is the most significant of all IMO.”

      There seems to be an enormous blind spot in people’s minds about modern taxation. It is this – Modern UK taxation is now mainly indirect taxation and thus income tax, which is direct taxation, is of ever decreasing value and importance.

      Indirect taxation is such as VAT, and duty levied upon goods and services. Alcohol Duty, Tobacco Duty, Road Fuel Duty, Betting Tax and all the other indirect taxes that have shifted the main burden of taxation from the richest to the poorest of society.

      This is the reason that while the poor are homeless, starving and the old, ill and disabled dying from sheer neglect the richest 10% of the UK’s society have more than doubled their wealth during the period of severe austerity they have told us we are all in together.

      Face it – anyone more than doubling their wealth cannot in any way be suffering austerity measures.

      They are feeding you bullshit and you are accepting it with relish. The only reason the UK is in financial trouble is because the wealth is all in the pockets of that wealthy 10% who have no intention of ever relinquishing their firm hold upon it.

    187. sensibledave says:

      CameronB Brodie 11.15

      Genuinely, I do understand the difficulties and whether its Scotland, Cornwall, the North or North East of England, or Birmingham or the “shires” of middle England – each have their own issues, problems, threats and opportunities – but end up with decisions being made for them by MPs that have nothing to do with their region/country.

      Until a region or a country within the UK has a referendum and a majority of people in that region/country vote to leave – we are left trying to make the best of things where compromise (like Smith) is the only option.

      I don’t “know” this, but based upon the Scottish Independence campaign, I would judge that the majority of folk in England are quite happy for Scotland to have whatever the majority of Scots want.

      The likes of Helena and Heedy are unable to grasp this because they need to have an “enemy” that they focus their ire upon. Its much more convenient and easy (and intellectually bankrupt) for them to keep swiping at “England” – rather than the majority of Scots that voted against Independence.

      Again, I don’t “know” this but I rather suspect that many Scots might be more interested in Independence – if they didn’t feel that they would end up with people like Heedy and Helena running the show.

      I am sure the average Scot is very similar to the average English person in that they don’t want to associate with the sort of extreme points of view and thinly disguised antipathy towards 55 million neighbours that don’t live in Scotland.

    188. Bob Mack says:

      To think that prior to and after the referendum they claimed Scotland could not manage because we had a £7 billion black hole in the economy.

      Their solution to giving us more power was to reduce Scotland budget initially by £7 billion( if they had got their way).

      Boy were they out to destroy us.Thank goodness ror the SNP.

    189. sensibledave says:

      Robert Peffers 11.14

      You wrote “and that is why Westminster is terrified of any referenda on independence.”

      …. you may have missed it Robert – but there was a referendum quite recently. You may be a little bogged down about what happened 700 years ago to have noticed.

    190. Proud Cybernat says:

      When the rUK representatives in the London parliament (after stumbling out of its many subsidised bars) voted down every single amendment proposed by the SNP to the Scotland Bill (amendments that WOULD have honoured ‘The Vow’ made by the Three Amigos, Daily Record, BBC Scotland etc before 18/9/2014), THAT is the moment Westminster broke its promise to Scotland.

      ‘The Vow’ – A Promise Broken: http://tinyurl.com/p5oryrc

      Scotland HAS NOT been delivered ‘The Vow’. The Colonial Media can kid itself that it has been delivered and it might even be able to convince a substantial number of No-voters. It will NOT convince those who voted YES or those who wanted Devo-Max. This is NOT Devo-Max or anything remotely close to it.

      The battle continues. Devo-Max or Indy – nothing less.

      SNP x 2 = IndyRef 2

    191. Valerie says:

      Jeez, sensible,

      Way to go to prove those south of the Border don’t give a shit what we do I get it.

      I get it because I do hang around Welsh and English political pages. Those pages are filled now with Britnats foaming at the mouth about how shit the EU is, with zero evidence of course.

      I pointed out Human Rights going with Brexit, and was called a brainwashed Muppet. Today, a report from Amnesty, no less, condemns the UK for withdrawing basic Human Rights, whilst sucking up to Saud.

      I believe your post about no one caring, because many don’t care about their neighbour.

      If social media is anything to go by, we will have Brexit, with bells on.

    192. Graeme McCormick says:

      The Scottish Government could introduce Annual Ground Rent per m2 at £0.014 for rough grazing, £0.03 for woodland and arable and £3.93 for urban land types and make more than enough to increase total public expenditure by 18% and give back to each Scottish tax payer all taxes and charges levied on them by the UK, Scottish and local governments.

      Now that would be a changer

    193. heedtracker says:

      I don’t “know” this, but based upon the Scottish Independence campaign, I would judge that the majority of folk in England are quite happy for Scotland to have whatever the majority of Scots want.

      The likes of Helena and Heedy are unable to grasp this because they need to have an “enemy” that they focus their ire upon.”

      Its not ire sensible. Its reality, UKOK reality. The above cut n paste is just more and more of your dreary brand of UKOK bullshit dude. How can you judge what the majority of English people think “based upon the Scottish Independence campaign?”

      You’re a silly bullshit artist sensible. Leave it to the professional lie machine that is the UKOK press and BBC in Scotland.

      You won sensible, get over it.

      Incidentally sensible, the English people majority were enraged by their Scotland region daring to even try and run its own affairs. Look at how they were told to vote tory to keep Scotland out of power, with Lab, in Westminster last year. Did this “we own Scotland, they need to shut it and be grateful” stuff work sensible?

      I can hear PM Cammers telling JC to wear a nice suit, proper tie and sing the UKOK national anthem at PMQ’s right the noo.

      Thanks again proud Scot buts:-(

    194. CameronB Brodie says:

      sensibledave

      Until a region or a country within the UK has a referendum and a majority of people in that region/country vote to leave – we are left trying to make the best of things where compromise (like Smith) is the only option.

      I know you were watching the indyref, so you’ll be aware of what a travesty of democracy it was. I’m surprised I have to point out though, that when Cornwall, the North or North East of England, or Birmingham or the “shires” of middle England fail to achieve their political objectives, it is because they could not gain enough support from fellow English voters. England has ten times the representation of Scotland, so what chance Scottish aspirations will be achieved if they do not correspond with those of England?

      You do know how colonialism works? Political and economic control from outwith and all that.

    195. sensibledave says:

      Heedy 12.30

      See Heedy, there is your problem. You don’t read. You are an idiot.

      You wrote “How can you judge what the majority of English people think “based upon the Scottish Independence campaign?”

      …. in response to me writing “I don’t “know” this, but based upon the Scottish Independence campaign, I would judge that the majority of folk in England are quite happy for Scotland to have whatever the majority of Scots want”

      You see Heedy, I said I dont “know” it – it was my judgement. Read Heedy, read. You may just pick up morsels of truth if you read.

      You wrote “You won sensible, get over it.” Heedy, you are an idiot! I refer you to my previous response – read it.

      The you wrote “the English people majority were enraged by their Scotland region daring to even try and run its own affairs”

      Suddenly you are an expert in what English people think!?!?!?

      You are a waste of space, numptie Heedy without an an independent thought in your head. You haven’t got a clue. You know nothing. All you can do is repeat UKOK, red Tory, Blue Tory bull s**t and blame everyone for the fact that you didnt get a majority in favour of Independece – everyone except your neighbours that is!!! What an idiot!

      Now, apparently, I am to blame because the Ms Sturgeon and the Scottish Government have agreed to an agreement on further devolution. Not your elected government. Not your favoured party. Not your First Minister. BUT ME???

      I would be grateful if you could indicate what role, I personally, played in all that.

      You are beyond parody!

    196. Helena Brown says:

      Here we go again Senseless, I agree that those South of the border on the whole care not a jot about Scotland, the point I was trying to make in a rather to long winded way is why we end up having to care about them and their wee problems.. So stop playing your stupid games with me. If there had been no interference with our referendum, no vow,which was seen by US Dave for the cheap trick it was,then firstly we, none of us here would be writing to you or putting up with you and secondly the EU referendum would be a total irrelevance to us, but believe me now it does matter.

    197. Thepnr says:

      I note that Captain Sensible the “Voice of England” is back. Once more into the breech with a wind up here and there.

      The Captain represents himself, nothing more.

    198. heedtracker says:

      The you wrote “the English people majority were enraged by their Scotland region daring to even try and run its own affairs”

      Suddenly you are an expert in what English people think!?!?!?

      You are a waste of space, numptie Heedy without an an independent thought in your head. You haven’t got a clue. You know nothing.”

      Takes me back sensible. Its like rancid The Graun red and blue tory creep show BTL CiF all over again. So thanks for that.

      Anyway, point is dude, you base your UKOK waffle that England’s not interested what Scotland does, on the Scottish independence campaign. It doesn’t make any sense but welcome to UKOK toryboy world. You won, so you can say anything UKOK that crosses your Britnat minds. All that’s fine.

      I base my Scotland should be an indy country but has been completely and historically robbed by our yoons chums waffle on stuff like this and I repeat-

      Incidentally sensible, the English people majority were enraged by their Scotland region daring to even try and run its own affairs. Look at how they were told to vote tory to keep Scotland out of power, with Lab, in Westminster last year. Did this “we own Scotland, they need to shut it and be grateful” stuff work sensible?

      Dont let them steal our country, of Scotland, was the Cameron vote tory battle cry, only in England though.

      And again, sensibldave, you yoons won, get over it and enjoy your triumph of England, it wont last.

    199. sensibledave says:

      Thepnr 1:51 pm

      You Wrote “The Captain represents himself, nothing more.”

      Spot on! Now if you could just have a word with the loonies here and convince them then we will have made progress.

    200. Ali says:

      I think the further cutting of ties is not insignificant? every power that moves north of the border is one less expense that can be bandied around. The more the better.

    201. frankieboy says:

      Ha! Sally Daisley championing George Osborne.

    202. Dan Huil says:

      Poor wee Captain Sensible is in an awfy bad mood the day. Britnat desperation turning into depression?

      Hey Captain! Remember:

      Happy talkin’, talkin Happy talk
      Talk about things you’d like to do
      You’ve got to have a dream
      If you don’t have a dream
      How you gonna have a dream come true



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