The world's most-read Scottish politics website

Wings Over Scotland


The Trojan Horse

Posted on November 12, 2015 by

One of the stranger criticisms regularly levelled at this site is that we don’t attack the SNP/Scottish Government enough.

labwhiners

That’s weird firstly because it’s not like there’s currently a shortage of hostile media scrutiny of Nicola Sturgeon and her colleagues, and secondly because we’ve never in our four-year life claimed for a moment to be neutral.

But the reality is far more nuanced than that.

Wings is openly and unashamedly a partisan pro-independence site. And because we monitor the media, and the media spends at least 90% of its time attacking the Nats, then when we point out lies and distortions in the press they’ll almost certainly have been lies and distortion aimed at the SNP, which means that highlighting them will tend to frequently involve – directly or indirectly – defending the party’s record.

Everything we write is published under the full disclosure that we’re unequivocally in favour of independence. Readers can judge our output in the prior knowledge of what side we’re on – something that can’t be said about Severin Carrell in the Guardian or David Torrance in the Herald or Tom Peterkin in the Scotsman (to name but three of many), all of whom implicitly pretend impartiality by not revealing to their readers which parties they vote for or what their constitutional preference is.

(As editor, and author of the majority of Wings articles, I’ve freely admitted voting Lib Dem for almost all my adult life, until this May when I reluctantly spoiled my ballot paper, unable in any conscience to vote for any of the candidates on offer.)

Nevertheless, while it’s not our job, from time to time we’ve voiced disagreement with SNP policies or those widely supported in the independence movement – we’ve been bitterly attacked by those on the Yes side on several occasions on issues around gender quotas and Gaelic, for example.

We also oppose the SNP’s policy of “full fiscal autonomy” (FFA), and have regularly drawn our readers’ attention to the trap being set by the Unionist parties around the extension of devolution, and both of those issues are about to come to a crucial decision point that could dictate the future of Scotland.

trojan

For more than two-and-a-half years we’ve warned that the “more powers” plans put forward by the Unionist parties meant loading more burdens, responsibilities and costs onto the Scottish Parliament, without giving it any meaningful extra powers at all.

The recent tax-credits fiasco is a case in point. On current proposals, the Scottish Government will find itself forced to devise, construct, administer and pay for a crazily complex system in an attempt to defend Scotland from the worst effects of savage welfare cuts from the Conservative government at Westminster.

(An attempt that may turn out to be entirely futile anyway – UK government ministers have repeatedly and conspicuously refused to rule out clawing back “top-ups” given to claimants by reducing their other benefits, which would leave those on low incomes still much worse off and Holyrood hundreds of millions of pounds out of pocket.)

The money and resources to do so will have to be found from Holyrood’s existing budget, which is at the same time being subjected to heavy cuts (set to amount to a 20% fall in a decade by 2018-19, according to Fiscal Affairs Scotland) so that the UK government can divert money to reducing taxes for millionaires and billionaires.

fiscalaffairs2

The only means available to the Scottish Government to generate cash to protect the victims of the cuts will be the power to raise income tax. But in a geographically tiny unitary state differential tax rates are wildly impractical, because it’s very easy for people – especially the wealthy who would be chiefly targeted – to move their tax address (and/or themselves entirely) out of Scotland.

The Scotland Bill which this week passed its final reading in the House Of Commons is a poison pill designed deliberately and specifically as a political tool to damage the SNP (just like GERS was before it), after an eight-year political and media onslaught has failed to do the job. The right-wing columnist Alex Massie of the Spectator called it “the smallest offer [David Cameron] thought he could plausibly escape with making”, but in reality it’s far more sinister than that.

There’s almost nothing in the Bill that genuinely amounts to a “power”. It’s mostly an accounting exercise – Scotland is being “assigned” half of VAT revenue raised in the country, for example, but only as a replacement for being given that same money in the block grant. Holyrood will still have no power to alter any aspect of VAT – cash that was previously sent to Scotland anyway has simply been relabelled.

The income tax “powers” which will be delivered, meanwhile, are also a trap. While in practice they can’t be used to raise any more money (for reasons we’ve already noted above), they have a much more real downside.

The esteemed Professor John Curtice told Radio Scotland listeners on Tuesday that even simply keeping tax rates the same as they are in England may very well result in Holyrood having less revenue:

(The Kaye Adams Programme, BBC Radio Scotland, 10 November 2015)
.

“[Tax powers] have the potential to raise more money in Scotland, [but they] also come, however, with the risk that  even if the rates of taxation in Scotland remain the same as they are in England, that Scotland could end up being worse off than it is at the moment.

That depends on the bouyancy of the tax base, and equally of course, increasing rates of taxation doesn’t necessarily result in increased revenue. For example, if a future Scottish Government were to decide to increase the top rate of tax from 45p to 50p, then it would be facing the potential risk that those who are liable to that tax decide to move south of the border.

What Prof. Curtice points out is that the Scotland Bill effectively largely removes the “pooling and sharing” safeguard the No campaign sold as a key benefit of the Union. (Interestingly, he believes there should be a referendum on the Scotland Bill.)

He notes that if any future UK economic growth is disproportionately concentrated in England (and what that really means in practice is London, where the vast majority of the “recovery” since 2010 has occurred), then Scotland will lose out because even with tax rates the same, the tax base will have fallen behind and there will no longer be a Barnett compensation to make up for it.

Because the Scotland Bill gives Holyrood almost no powers to generate growth or jobs (the only one which arguably has the potential to do so to a small degree is the ability to cut Air Passenger Duty, which Scottish Labour is bursting a gut to make politically impossible), that’s quite likely to happen.

At BEST, therefore, the tax powers will leave Scotland where it is now, except loaded with extra administrative costs and responsibilities. On almost any plausible scenario the Scottish Government and the country will be significantly financially damaged, having to spend more money from a reduced budget just to stand still.

The political problem for the SNP is that it campaigned on a demand for more powers, but then Labour’s collapse in England destroyed its ability to shape those powers to Scotland’s advantage. With a Tory majority, assisted by Labour abstaining or even voting with it (as on the rejected devolution of tax credits), the UK government has been able to ride roughshod over even the SNP’s huge proportion of Scottish MPs.

(The electorate voted No last September, but then they also voted in 56 SNP MPs because they didn’t trust Westminster to keep its promises, and the media led them to expect a hung parliament in which the Nats could hold the balance of power over the devolution negotiations. Labour’s uselessness in England wrecked that plan.)

The resulting Scotland Bill represents the worst of all possible worlds (why wouldn’t it? Why would a UK government, especially a Tory one with nothing to lose in Scotland, voluntarily hand over loads of goodies once it had secured a No vote?) and the opinion of the SNP’s own supporters seems to recognise that fact very clearly.

A poll run on Twitter this week had a striking result:

contessapoll

While not scientific, the nature of social media makes it likely that most respondents to the poll were Yes/SNP-sympathetic, and with a decent sample size the resounding nature of the figures – given that “more powers” is still officially SNP policy – is a powerful indicator of grassroots feeling.

Rejecting the Bill is still an option that’s open to the Scottish Government. It requires legislative consent from the Scottish Parliament to come into force, and the SNP has not ruled out blocking it. Much will depend on the “fiscal framework”, the all-important arrangements for exactly how the block grant will be adjusted to account for the new “powers”, which are currently completely unknown.

(The SNP may also feel that even if the Bill’s effects are negative in themselves, the principle of bringing ostensibly major aspects of governance to Holyrood will make the final step to independence seem smaller and easier in the event of a future second referendum, especially if a UK-imposed devo package has made things economically worse for Scotland anyway. We have no idea, they don’t consult us on stuff.)

In their haste to celebrate, the Unionists have already given the game away regarding the Bill and its true purpose, which is to siphon money from Scotland to Westminster while damaging the SNP. It remains to be seen whether the party can extricate itself politically from the corner it’s rather painted itself into by sticking to its FFA demands.

But what seems to be in no doubt is that as things stand, the people can see the trap this site’s been warning about for a very long time as what it is. And if the SNP walk dumbly into it, we’ll be at the head of the lynch mob with a torch and a pitchfork.

Subscribe
Notify of
guest

429 Comments
Inline Feedbacks
View all comments
Training Day

There’s little doubt the Bill should be rejected, but the key issue here is how the SNP get their message about why it’s been rejected out there, in the context of the utterly compromised and corrupt ‘Scottish’ corporate media.

But it’s going to be bite the bullet time, and a lot sooner than many in the party may have thought.

Wulls

i have been saying exactly that for years.
As a socialist I cannot countenance voting labour.
As a nationalist I can only in good conscience vote SNP as long as they have Scotland’s interests as a core value.
There is absolutely no way they can accept the Scotland act as it stands.
To do anything other than reject it in its entirety would be to Scotland’s detriment.
However there is a deeper problem.
If the SNP accept this Trojan horse who do we vote for ??????
Not the SNP.
Not Labour.
Not Tory.
Certainly not Lib Dems.
Tommy Sheridan for FM ????????

Fireproofjim

Well put Stuart.
I have used the cliche “poisoned chalice” several times to describe the Scotland Bill, but this Bill is definitely toxic.
If accepted it will be extremely useful to the Tories and Slab as a means of attacking the SNP for not using the so called “powers” to alleviate the cuts that the Tories have put in place.
I will be writing to my MP and MSP to urge rejection. We should all do that.

TheGreatBaldo

“And if the SNP walk dumbly into it, we’ll be at the head of the lynch mob.”

Fair enough, but it’s hard to see how the SNP have any option but to (ultimately)accept The Scotland Bill.

After all, that is what the Scottish voters decided they wanted on Sept 18th last year.

Even if the fiscal framework is trap, you can almost predict the response if/when the SNP rejects it.

Only plausible option is to practically demonstrate that the ‘powers’ granted simply don’t work.

Murray McCallum

The Scotland Bill should be rejected as it does not represent the full devolution / federalism waved in front of voters prior to the referendum.

The SNP should highlight the rejection in their 2016 manifesto and seek a popular mandate to insist on full devolution, and a second independence referendum if this does not materialise.

If the Scotland Bill goes ahead, it looks like a golden opportunity for the Scottish Labour & Conservative unionist alliance to cobble together cost mitigation upon tax increase upon spending promise (as Scotland has no power to modify Westminster policy) to the point where the Scottish parliament effectively needs a financial bailout.

A devolved Scottish Parliament simply cannot compete politically with the sovereign Westminster one. It is a mistake to pretend it can. Rather than crystalize this through accepting the Scotland Bill, surely better to stick to what was promised – full devolution / federalism.

Onwards

It would be politically hard to reject the limited new powers completely.

But they could be accepted whilst making clear they are only a TEMPORARY first step, to be followed by a devolution referendum.

A public mandate is needed to prove exactly what should be devolved.

Yes, devolution needs to be negotiated, but it is far harder to ignore a public mandate, and doing so could be a good argument for independence.

Ruglonian

Well said!

heedtracker

Prof Curtizz beats that saggy UKOK drum “Scottish government is now more accountable and responsible for the decisions that it makes”

Ofcourse Scots.gov is accountable, its a PR elected parliament! You can’t get anymore democratically accountable or responsible than Holyrood. Its why the red tories are finished.

But Curtice is merely parroting the propaganda of UKOK BBC unionist fanatics, via an England ruled by a minority vote Toryboy.gov, unelected House of Lords and ofcourse, the queen.

Itchybiscuit

Every time you post a new article it is liberally sprinkled with links to reports/stats/interviews/quotations so that WE can decide whether or not you’re being accurate in your criticisms.

I read a piece by Carrell published yesterday, regarding the Carmichael case. It was (one would have thought) supposed to be a balanced account – as we should expect from journalists – but what I read was ‘Carmichael’ good, ‘the People’ BAD.

The headline of his piece? ‘Lawyer asks judges to throw out Sturgeon memo leak case’.

1. That’s the JOB of the defence lawyer – it’s hardly ‘news’.
2. It’s NOT the ‘Sturgeon Memo Case’- it’s ‘The People vs Carmichael’.

Just two points off the top of my head and these people wonder why the meeja is going down the tubes…

Anagach

Also there is the effect of trying to split the SNP support, into those that recognize the poison in the chalice and would refuse it, and those that would drink it as part of a process to keep pushing for a better deal.

Whatever the Scottish Government does we should avoid fighting amongst ourselves over the impossible situation.

And advertise in what poor faith the whole trap construct has been made.

Colin Church

The Trojan horse may be getting wheeled into Holyrood as one tactic. But they are also digging at the foundations to collapse it with open but unchallenged attacks on Scottish economy. Oil taxation, jobs, steel, Longannet and grid charges, Youngs, renewables, carbon capture, London infrastructure, Trident, stealing farming subsidies…

One of the great questions of the referendum that is still relevant. If we are better together why aren’t we better just now?

Clootie

The people who are paid up members of the SNP don’t always agree with the policies e.g. vote against land reform at the conference (it didn’t go far enough)

However the vast majority of members believe that the people of Scotland have the right to decide our future as a nation.

I don’t care if someone is Green / SSP / Labour or even Tory.
Party Political membership has nothingto do with the core YES principle in that WE should have the right to chose the direction of a nations political travel.

The policies themselves come second. e.g. If to my great surprise Scots voted for Trident in an Independent Scotland I will accept it.

The Unionists just cannot understand the core drive and keep reverting to individual topics and even worse the judgement is always as a mini-England (Westminster model)
London continues to suck the life and wealth from our country.

[…] One of the stranger criticisms regularly levelled at this site is that we don’t attack the SNP/Scottish Government enough.  […]

squewedperspective

I think the SNP should put it to the electorate, by saying “the Scotland bill as it stands is insufficient, if you want it renegotiated vote SNP”.

If it cannot be negotiated to yield actual power, well that could be grounds for a referendum…

Dan Huil

Unionists of every political hue will always put the interests of Westminster above those of Scotland; that’s why they think the Scotland Bill is a good thing. Thankfully it seems the majority of people in Scotland can see the Bill, as it stands, is an insult to Scotland. My call to the Scottish government: reject the Bill and govern Scotland as though she was already independent. If it should break the law according to Westminster, then so be it.

Auld Sandy

When do the SNP need to make a decision on implementing this? I’d suggest waiting until after the Holyrood elections. They could campaign on the basis of blocking this and leave the unionist parties to campaign for accepting it. Or would that look a bit too much like a referendum?

Angra Mainyu

Rev, I think your opposition to FFA and Devo-Max is really an expression of criticism and concern regarding its implementation; that is to say, those involved in the implementation would no doubt do their utmost to screw it up. I accept that but that isn’t a criticism of the idea per se.

We are talking about federalism here and federalism could work for us, as it has worked for others. It would at least, if configured properly, be a massive and rewarding step in the right direction.

Campaigning for another referendum on independence, identical to the last, is fraught with potential difficulties. That said, I would jump at the chance.

The worst thing that could possibly happen for the independence movement is a sort of terrified stalemate, with the SNP too risk averse to push for or oppose anything. If that happens we are doomed and in 5 years we will all have given up.

nodrog

In total agreement with your post Stuart. We are all aware of the bias of the MSM, including BBC and STV. I have never seen it so obvious as the last 10 days it is an utter disgrace.

I am hoping that the SNP are keeping their powder dry and allowing enough rope to the opposition. The opposition are most certainly becoming more bombastic and I detect the Scottish public are picking this up.

There is only one way now – INDEPENDENCE – nothing else will do the job. We must reject the sham called the “Scotland Bill”. We need to be independent on or before 2020 or I fear our opportunity will be lost. Let us hope Nicola and Alec have a plan.

crisiscult

Serious question: can’t it be put to a referendum, or at least a consultation of ‘stakeholders’, both of which, if SNP didn’t campaign for a yes, would result in failure?
Questions for an opinion poll:
a) Scot gov should accept scotland bill
b) Scot gov should reject scotland bill
If you answered yes to b), I believe the way forward is:
1) more powers for Scottish gov
2) less power for Scottish gov
3) status quo

Kennedy

The Establishment are hurting the Scottish people to score political points against the SNP.

SNP must reject the bill. we will support them. how long do we suffer before no becomes yes?

Snap election to reject the bill removes the stick they will beat the SNP with. we will all suffer until no becomes yes. this can only go one way. how long?

starlaw

Put the acceptance of this bill to a referendum with two choices, accept or leave the union.

Helena Brown

I want this bill rejected, I do not care what the 55% want they happily decided they were too frightened, to complacent or TOO BRITISH to care.
So it is up to those who do care to protect what is left of Scotland since they decided as one of the only countries in the world to give up control to their competitor.
So be brave SNP and do not give a hostage to fortune because with this you cannot win for all the reasons listed above.

Dair

The SNP are still at 58% on today’s TNS poll despite a heavy increase in the concentration of Unionist media fire. They need to use that, to reject the Scotland Bill and use it as a springboard for a guaranteed Referendum in the next Holyrood term.

The Unionists have failed, this is grounds for the Second Referendum. The Quebecois failed when they refused to deliver a third Referendum in 1999 (which they would have won). The SNP cannot fall into the Unionist trap of rejecting the chance for another vote.

David Mooney

Have to agree FFA is an unworkable trap as Westminster would never allow it to happen in the first place.

The SNP are backing themselves into a corner. I see no alternative other than rejecting the Scotland Bill. Unfortunately this will allow the Unionists – through the corporate media – to unleash an avalanche of criticism designed to undermine the SNP’s position.

In order to be heard above the cacophony of media criticism the SNP would be forced in to yet another defensive posture. This requires drastic protective action.

It won’t happen – but my suggestion is that. Early next year, all 56 SNP Westminster MPs resign on mass. This would force multiple by-elections in the whole of Scotland. They could be held at the same time as the Hollyrood elections in May.

The SNP should fight the election on a mandate for full and unequivocal Independence. A risky strategy I know, but if it succeeded the reward would be worth it. Westminster would have no choice other than to negotiate Independence.

Just my twopence worth.

Dennis Nicholson

No question at all about it, they have to reject – and hopefully be clever enough to turn that to their (and our) advantage…

AndyH

If the Scottish Government throw this crap (Scotland Bill) back at them and tell them to shove it the people will be right behind them.

Nobody seriously thinks this is what was promised by Broon and his cohorts.

It’s a trap and now they need to start shouting about it.

Sunniva

Excellent analysis, many thanks. What is being offered is the curse of middle management throughout the years – responsibility without power whilst in the board room they enjoy the opposite – power without responsibility.

The only power worth a jot hete is APD, and that could be removed at a stroke by English MPs or the Lords as an amendment to the Scotland Bikl. The SNP must be brave and reject this poisoned chalice.

Big Daddio

What about dropping the top rate of tax instead?

A bit controversial, but any loss in revenues would surely be more than compensated by all the top tax earners in London moving their tax address to Scotland.

Let’s use their trap against them!!

Erchie

I would rather rip my baws affordable with rusty pliers than see that narcissistic wanker Sheridan within a mile of influence or power

All Tommy cares about is Tommy

[…] The Trojan Horse […]

Doug Daniel

I can’t decide if the unionist parties’ motivation here is:
a) create the conditions to ensure the Scottish economy is wrecked;
b) come up with a settlement so poisonous that the SNP simply can’t accept it.

For a), it’ll happen under the SNP’s watch, so they think this will destroy the SNP once and for all. For b), they think the only way to but the brakes on independence is to call the SNP’s bluff, so they can then say to the voters “we offered them more powers, and they refused. They’re basically admitting Scotland can’t afford to be independent.”

I don’t think they’re clever enough to have intentionally arrived at the situation they’re currently at, where the SNP effectively has to choose between a) and b).

The whole thing just shows that devolution is not a long-term solution, though. You can’t run an economy with your hands tied behind your back. The powers which are and aren’t devolved are completely random, with no thought given to how they actually work together. This is what happens when you set up commissions to devolve just enough power to get the natives to shut up, with “how do we stop independence?” as your motivation, rather than “how do we create the best conditions for Scotland to thrive?”

Unionists simply do not care about Scotland. For all their accusations that the SNP is obsessed with independence, the irony is everything they do – particularly Scottish Labour – is about trying to stop independence. That is their first priority. It’s possible to be against independence but still put the interests of Scotland first (although I obviously think putting Scotland first inevitably leads to independence), but these people choose not to do that. Labour do not think “would devolving this be beneficial for Scotland?”, they think “would devolving this lead to independence?” That’s all they care about. They would turn Scotland into a barren wasteland if that was what they had to do to stop support for independence.

I’m fed up of their scotched earth policies. Wake up, Scotland. Wake the fuck up.

nodrog

The magnificent Suu Kyi has shown us the way – let us follow her example. From Truth, Patience and Persistence follows FREEDOM and INDEPENDENCE.

mealer

The SNP certainly won’t “walk dumbly into it”.They will consider their position and choose what they think is the best option.That option may involve something that nobody expects.

DerekM

its quite simple Rev the SNP are not trying to discredit other parties they go about the business of what they get paid to do,come up with policy that is good for Scotland and dont get involved in the shit flinging the other parties seem to think is an acceptable face of politics,well its not and is the reason the SNP are so popular.

The others are so busy attacking the SNP and spreading lies i still have no idea what policies they have on offer,if they actually have any that is not in some way trying to discredit the SNP.

As for these twats that are saying you are biased its because they have lost the debate and are reverting to onion type of pointing the finger throwing some shit and hoping it sticks.

And you are right if the SNP do fall into this trap they will soon figure out that 100,000 members does not equate to millions of yes voters,but then i really dont think they will since unlike the other parties they actually listen to the electorate,and so they should as should all other parties because the sovereign people of Scotland have taking back the ownership of politics in Scotland.

And whoa betide any political party that does not listen,we have already shown what the collective bosses of Scotland can do at the GE2015.

So my advice to the SNP is keep doing what you are doing guys we the bosses are impressed and are seriously considering an extension to your contract of being the Scottish government.

As for the others well big fail on their part and we will show our displeasure in 2016 by sacking as many of these useless idiots as we can.

squewedperspective

I think the SNP should stall.

They should debate it and complain and then put it to the electorate next May, by saying “the Scotland bill as it stands is insufficient, if you want it re-negotiated vote SNP”.

Of course if it cannot be successfully re-negotiated to yield actual power, well that could be grounds for a independence referendum…

Martin Wood

The message that the Scotland bill is a poisoned chalice going out has to be broken down into easy chunks…

Chunk 1: Labour voted with the Tories to block full devolution of tax credits costing the SG £3bn.

Devolution of tax credits would have transferred £3bn from reserved spending to the SG DEL moving it from £30bn to £33bn…

from there we could have reorganised tax credits and mitigated the cuts from a £33bn pot…

Thanks to Labour and the Tories we have to mitigate the cuts from a £30bn pot…

Small pieces to chip away at the Hardened Labour fans

Murray McCallum

If Scotland had full devolution of all powers barring defence and foreign policy it could make more transparent and therefore highlight:

Scottish fiscal balance 1
Contribution to UK Debt 2
Contribution to UK Defence 3
Contribution to UK Overseas 4
Scottish fiscal balance in UK 5

We could also better justify strengthening Revenue Scotland and building the institutions to regulate and manage our economy / public assets.

It is the Scottish fiscal balance that people need to be more confident about. We can debate what items 2, 3, and 4 would fall to in an independent Scotland.

Les Wilson

The Unionists have one agenda after Indy, that is make us bleed,then make us bleed more. Keep that in mind constantly, and grit your teeth.
We need to get the momentum to another referendum.

People really have to get angry about this, realising their
true true agenda and spreading it as far into the population as we can,would be a start.

Colin Dunn

I like the idea of the SNP having a referendum about this. IT would give them a platform for highlighting the meagre powers vs the serious flaws, and point out all of the risks and costs. Letting the people decide means that the SNP couldn’t then be blamed for accepting the Bill later.

It would also demonstrate a very different way of doing this in Scotland vs rUK.

However, does the Scottish Government have the power to hold such a referendum?

heedtracker

link to buzzfeed.com

So from just one rather sneaky creepy unionist hack comes-

“Gordon Brown Urges The SNP To Use New Powers Instead Of “Going Along” With Tory Cuts”

then

“The former prime minister said Nicola Sturgeon’s party has “reluctantly” had to accept that it will be able to top up benefits with the Scottish parliament’s new powers.”

with

“The SNP must use new powers being handed to the Scottish parliament to help the country’s poorest or risk being seen to “go along” with Tory cuts, Gordon Brown has said.”

Crash Gordon sez, urge, has to, must, the heat gets turned up by toryboy world, red and blue.

mike cassidy

Political cojones time for the SNP.

Put rejection of the Bill into their manifesto for next year’s Holyrood election.

Let the voters decide.

Des B

I think the scenario for SG is pretty much damned if they do and damned if they dont. SG’s eyes are pretty wide opened, but, it is clear that Under the Current Totalitarian rule, the SNP MPs fight for Powers are for nothing. It’s a complete Humiliation. The only way step forward currently is an all out SNP result in May and a very clever Manifesto.

galamcennalath

Good article covering several HUGE issues.

I think people need to appreciate that the Scotland Bill level of devolution is probably ‘the max’ WM will agree to. After a very close run referendum, deceitful promises, and negotiations of sorts … this is it, this is most likely the FINAL product.

There is scope for the SG/SNP to call for further devolution negotiations, but only as a tactic to flush out WM to state clearly, “you’ve got all you going to get”.

IMO we are at the stage of two choices, DevoCameron or independence.

The ongoing problem, as can be seen in comments above, is that many people still believe there is a third way. There probably isn’t. However that needs to be stated clearly by WM.

Having said that, there is another dimension covered eloquently by Stu – WM intend to damage the SG and the SNP. Punishment, possibly. More likely the thinking is to put people off the idea that we Scots can run our own country. If they can engineer devolved government to fail badly, they hope few people will believe an independent one would work either.

This aspect is perhaps the most critical and dangerous. While we ponder more devolution, WM plans ultimately to roll it back!

The only actual power contained in the SB seems to be APD. At best this will allow very limited economic stimulus. Giving responsibility without decision making powers over other areas is worse than useless.

Solution? Fight the May election for a mandate to negotiate DevoMax / Home Rule within say 3 months, or we call IndyRef2. I am convince WM will not contemplate any more significant devolution. So Indyref2 would follow as day follows night.

A clear choice. DevoCameron versus independence. No extra promises. The straight choice we always should have had.

Onwards

Joan Macalpine explained the situation well in her Daily Record column.

link to web.archive.org

——-
..when George Osborne sets his budget, he has a whole range of taxes to draw from.

These include fuel and alcohol duty, capital gains tax, corporation tax and national insurance. He can balance one against the other.

In Scotland, we will effectively have just one – income tax. It is notoriously volatile. And we have fewer higher rate tax payers to start with.

It sounds like a trap. It looks like a trap. And that’s exactly what it is.
——-

Effectively, we are being given a toolbox with only a hammer in it and expected to fix the house.

On the plus side, it’s obvious the Scottish people want far more. We need to demonstrate that with a clear question to the Scottish people. I would like to see an extra question on specific more powers on the same day as the Holyrood elections.

SNP/SNP/
Yes/Yes/Yes/Yes/Yes

Alison Rollo

Of course the Scottish Government should reject the Scotland Bill in it’s present form. It is not what was promised for their precious NO vote and will be detrimental to our cause by allowing the Unionists to blame the SNP for not ‘using the powers’. Nicola must put the ability to demand Devo Max and the right to call a referendum in the 2016 Manifesto. If she is re-elected then we demand a New Scotland Bill — if this is refused (as it would be!!) then — Ref2 and if it’s YES — UDI.

Angra Mainyu

Rev: “The most obvious illustration is that under FFA we’d lose Barnett, but still be tied into the UK’s ludicrously oversized defence budget.”

Looking at it like that, we would “lose” Barnett if we were independent too.

The target for defence spending as part of NATO is 2% of GDP, whether you are in the UK or not. That assumes NATO membership which I’d say was a given. One way or another, 1 to 2% is the normal cost of defence spending and we would need to spend some amount.

The biggest flaw in FFA is that we would be tied to UK foreign policy and potentially involved in more stupid and illegal wars. But at a later date we could use their typically irresponsible Foreign Policy as a basis and argument for full detachment, and, who knows, maybe the risk of that would help socialise them.

yesindyref2

In the Referendum and this 14 months after, 45% of us voted YES for Indy and we’re not getting it. Roughly half of the 55% NO voters voted for the status quo (27.5%) which was stable, and they’re not getting it, and the other half (27.5%) voted NO for substantial more powers and they’re not getting it.

What does all of Scotland have in common? We’re not getting it!

Peter McCulloch

As long as we remain part of the UK Westminster will always do everything in its power to financially damage and disadvantage Scotland.

Though I never believed in FFA, maybe the reason the SNP leadership supported this policy is because they knew it would never be delivered.

However if the Scottish Government doesn’t reject these new devolution powers and instead accepts them, though not using the tax powers.

It must ensure that the people of Scotland are fully informed about as to what the consequences of those additional powers the unionists boast about, means for them financially, their jobs and public services.

And then let the unionists bang on about how the Scottish Government is failing to use the tax powers to mitigate Westminster’s cuts.

A2

It’s not really thinking ahead though is it. If the ultimate aim is to derail the SNP and restore Slab to it’s “rightful place”, then they’ll be stuck with the same conditions themselves. Unless they want to do away with the parliament altogether it’s lose /lose.

Soda

This may seem too obvious a question to ask but… cant the ref result now be declared void as it was sold on a lie… ok, a promise that was broken… and plans be now put in place for another ref in 2019 or 2020?

Ken500

‘A trap’. It just increases support for the SNP and Independence. Vote every Unionist politician out in Scotland. They are just destroying their Parties and the Union. The SNP are doing everything they can to protect Scotland from Westminister. Westminster the enemy of the people. Cameron and Osbourne are dangerous amateurs. Blair and Brown should be in jail.

Curtice has a cheek. The unreliable skewed Polls helped manipulate the Referendum result.

Robert meechan

Its even simpler than that we walk away saying this union is over we stop all the flow off our resources to england oil water whisky energy easy peasy but do we have the guts and the balls to do it in the end that what it will come to and the thing is we know it

Ken500

Congratulations to Tommy Sheridan on his Law Degree and his opposition to the Poll Tax and Warrant sales in Scotland.

Bob Mack

Surely the way to deal with this conundrum is to put it before the electorate.I think there is enough savvy out there to trust people to avoid this trap.
As someone else has said,include it in the manifesto for the elections next year.
They will be supported.

ben madigan

@Angra Mainyu who said “We are talking about federalism here and federalism could work for us, as it has worked for others. It would at least, if configured properly, be a massive and rewarding step in the right direction”.

Federalism within the UK is not a feasible option because of

a) the disproportionate size of the English population (85%)

b) divided loyalities.

c) Nearly half the populations in Scotland and NI want out of the Union.

d) The English want England to stay united.

f) Finally, federalism with its separation of powers, written constitution and so on, is alien to Westminster

Read all about it here
link to eurofree3.wordpress.com

Brian Doonthetoon

Hi Onwards.

Your ‘web archive’ link isn’t showing the article, only the survey.

Here’s a link that gives the article.

link to archive.is

Dair

Murray McCullum wrote :-
If Scotland had full devolution of all powers barring defence and foreign policy it could make more transparent and therefore highlight:

Scottish fiscal balance 1
Contribution to UK Debt 2
Contribution to UK Defence 3
Contribution to UK Overseas 4
Scottish fiscal balance in UK 5

You’re forgetting probably the biggest item that Scotland has to pay for yet would save in nearly it’s entirety under Independence – the National Infrastructure Plan.

muttley79

I support FFA because it would mean that Holyrood would have control over our own welfare and taxation systems, we would have our own broadcasting and media services, control over energy, and it would greatly increase the chances of joined up government in Scotland. The Barnett formula is starting to be phrased out anyway, and if we are independence or have FFA, then it would obviously not apply anyway. FFA takes us much, much closer to independence. The point about high defence costs under FFA would only be another selling point for independence, as would the continued presence of Trident at Faslane.

galamcennalath

yesindyref2 says:

“What does all of Scotland have in common? We’re not getting it!”

Yup! Everyone, Yes and No are getting screwed over.

Status quo has gone forever.
Indy has been prevented by lies and deceit.
Devolution has become a trap.

Brian Doonthetoon

Hi Onwards.

I typed,
“Your ‘web archive’ link isn’t showing the article, only the survey.”

Apologies – unlike in the past, the web archive page has the survey working, so you can go through the questions and eventually see the article. I assumed it was a ‘static’ archive.

Dan Huil

New TNS full Scotland Poll [after an even greater than usual BritNat media onslaught]:

Constituency:
58% SNP
24% Lab
12% Con
4% Lib

List:
52% SNP
25% Lab
11% Con
5% Green
5% Lib

Alex Beveridge

I trust the S.N.P leadership to get it right when the time comes. We have political giants, especially Merlin, who wil run rings around their opponents.
The major problem is, then as now, the M.S.M. They will never change, so no matter what Nicola and her advisiors decide to do, they will be castigated by the media. The one political party trying to do their best for the people of Scotland, will be lambasted no matter which course they take.
Yes of course social media plays a big part now in getting our message out there, but I still feel the old methods, cavassing, leafleting, still have a huge effect on the electorate. Just back in from talking to people on their doorsteps, and unless they are kidding, and they weren’t at the General Election, most are no longer being fooled by the unionist propoganda.
O.K, we have distance to go, but we will get there despite all the disrespect, and lies being told by an establishment determined to hold onto Scotland’s wealth, and subjugate it’s people.

ronnie anderson

I suspect a large number of people in Scotland did’nt watch the Scotland Bill debate, a lot of People on here gave up watching it & we’re used to all the grap.

Scottish Gov should debate the Bill in its entirety, including the emendments put forth by SNP MPs at Westminster & it should be Televised & Livestreamed , lets see Kezia, Ruthie, Wullie, defend it.

Cmon SNP put them to the test 2/3 day debate.

orri

The constant asking the SNP would use powers to mitigate Tax Credit cuts was in the hope that a commitment would be made before any guarantee that said powers would be forthcoming. It was also designed to plant in the minds of the public that such powers were going to be devolved. If Holyrood votes to accept an inadequate transfer of powers the propagandists will go on about them being more useful than they are and harp on about how the SNP have let the vulnerable down. Outright rejection might be the only safe bet as it isn’t fit for purpose.

Murray McCallum

Dair @ 12.38PM

You are absolutely right. We would need to add a line for:

Contribution to UK institutions/infrastructure

Full devolution / federalism would enable a Scottish government that favoured full independence to highlight the cost of staying in the UK.

This is why it would never be fully granted.

Luigi

A2 says:
12 November, 2015 at 12:21 pm

It’s not really thinking ahead though is it. If the ultimate aim is to derail the SNP and restore Slab to it’s “rightful place”, then they’ll be stuck with the same conditions themselves. Unless they want to do away with the parliament altogether it’s lose /lose.

Och, it’s just SLAB demonstrating a combination of low expectation and a complete lack of any long-term strategy. They don’t really expect to be in power anytime soon, and seem to be incapable of thinking/planning beyond the next election. It’s becoming increasingly difficult for the corporate media to keep polishing the red tory turd.

The SLABers still haven’t come to terms with, or understood why they were so utterly rejected by their traditional support in May. The only reason they can come up with is that the SNP cult has somehow brainwashed the voters, but they still don’t recognise that they sowed the seeds of their own destruction over many years. The referendum merely brought it to a head.

Les Wilson

It would take a big write, to explain just how Westminster screws Scotland, they have had 300 years to perfect it.
Most are underhand, that do not hit headlines so are rarely exposed, others very obvious.

However, I consider the new “powers” for Scotland to be their most transparent and blunt ploy yet devised. Their aim is to wear down and destroy democracy in Scotland, by proposed measures that simply will not work for Scotland.

To undermine our democracy, cause division, and push the country back financially for decades.
They do not care who they hurt. They have no time for Scots as amply shown at Westminster. To better England at our expense is the overall game plan, and always has been.

With their anti democratic retoric, and there is a disaster awaiting if we do nothing to prevent this.

I think the signing of the new powers, should be delayed, notifying Westminster they will only be passed if they come up to scratch for Scotland. Give them a deadline before total rejection. 3-6 months or whatever is deemed reasonable.

In this they would be offered the chance to put things right,that would be a chance for them to do the right thing, a reasonable position considering their present aims.

If not Indy2 should be raised, the whole country would be aware of the failure of Westminster and how it holds Scotland as a cash cow.
This would in my view, throw the decision on to Westminster for the split of the UK.

Peter McCulloch

For those who want this bill put to the electorate in the 2016 manifesto.

I have a couple of queries when is the deadline for the acceptance or rejection of the powers in the new devolution bill?

And does Westminster intend these powers to be accepted
and in place for the 2016 Holyrood elections?

liz

This watered down ‘Vow’ is not what was promised to the people.

Therefore I dont think the SG have to accept it.

The press will be SNP bad no matter what they chose to do and I trust JSwinney to do the right thing.

Also I dont support the SNP in all things.

On a previous post someone mentioned his wife thought the new Sou Gen was bad as she read it somewhere, BBC or DR??
So there are still folk out there not hearing the truth.

Nearer the Holyrood elections a new WBB is needed.

Les Wilson

ronnie anderson says:
Well, that would be a good way to focus public attention,to the inadequate package of garbage we are offered.
Read my other post as another option.

What you propose would make it transparent,and could lead up to my proposition. So I agree Ronnie, a good idea.

Colin Church

@Colin Church 11:29

…and HMRC

ArtyHetty

My first thoughts were to accept the bill, but after what has happened this week, in principal we have to reject it. To accept it, in practice will make Scotland worse off, especially with Barnett being cut or being axed even. Non of this was meant to make Scotland worse off, but standing still is counter to being able to grow our economy and invest in areas that we need to. With UKOK making people even poorer, that also reduces spending in our high streets and more to the point local shops etc.

Given that this is a poison chalice, it might not kill us, yet, but it will no doubt make us very ill, whereas at the moment, people are seeing the positive actions of the SG, against the massive odds put in front of us, by UKOK.

The Scotgov have a difficult choice in a way, but it does look like the voters are seeing this shambles for what it is, and will go with stalling, or rejecting the bill, With the pretendy powers, we are not fooled one bit.

heedtracker

Its all getting a very weird UKOK media propaganda treatment, Graun not even mentioning it to its Scottish reader

link to theguardian.com

Neo fascist Voice Of The North Press and journal hasn’t reported it at all this week, just lots of English news from London especially and you hate SNP don’t you brain washing.

Colin Church

@Doug Daniel

“I’m fed up of their scotched earth policies.”

Is that where Scotland is entombed in a sausagemeat straight jacket.

Macart

Frankly I couldn’t give a flying squirrel what Westminster’s politicians or their pet media would have to say on the issue. That bill is pure poison with only one aim in mind.

What we have is a central government and those who parties support it, willingly causing hardship to their own electorate in pursuit of political agenda. This bill is dependency writ large and a ‘mitigators’ dream come true.

As for who is calling a bluff? I’d say that’s exactly what the Scottish Government have done since May this year. They ran on a ticket of FFA/Home Rule/Devo Max and worked their socks off to get it on the table. No one, absolutely no one can be in any doubt about the effort involved in getting it on there and just as surely no one can be in any doubt what Westminster’s decision on the issue was and just who voted against the measure.

I’m for throwing this poisonous piece of legislation back in their faces and having them think again. The Scottish electorate shouldn’t have to offset or mitigate any bloody thing. We’re a partner, not a region and effectively paying twice simply to have effective and representative legislation is beyond dumb. As for those politicians who think that’s what devolution is for?

Get off your damn knees, you’re wearing a hole in the carpets.

HandandShrimp

The latest TNS poll will have the Onionists wondering what it is they need to do.

Of course the answer is obvious – be positive for Scotland but I’m putting my money on them sticking with SNPbad 🙂

scotspine

Missed FMs questions. Any news?

Ian Brotherhood

No Jabba on FMQs?

Bah, humbug…money back please.

John Walsh

Gordon Brown the deliverer of the “vow” said The SNP must use the new powers that are in the Scotland Bill to mitigate the Tax Credit cuts imposed by the Tories and Supported by Labour.
he is either very Stupid or ignorant of the consequences .I believe he is neither .
1. He just admitted the the SNP will form the next Scotttish Government thus giving Kezie a vote of no confidence .
2. Knowing Slab could not balance the fiscal budget because ( what Stu says earlier ) Brown is happy for Slab to be the party of opposition for the next 5 years hoping the SNP uncoil and make such a mess of Scotland’s finances that the old Slab supporters come”Home” to them.

He forgets that The Scottish Government may well reject ” The Scotland Bill” once it has been watered down and interfered with so much by the Lords that even a compliment SMSM will find it hard to defend it,which they will.

Tony Little

Agree with the majority of sentiments expressed here. But let’s not forget that this Bill has still to negotiate the Lords where all our “Betters” will no doubt dilute it further.

I read in particular that Labour “Lords” (How that very idea grates on me as a socialist) will try to delay or remove the devolution of abortion policy. I have no doubt there will be other ‘amendments’.

Once the final product is known I want the Scottish Government to debate the reality of this new set of “powers” and then present them to the electorate in the manifestos.

This gives the SNP until May 2016 to present the reality of these non-practical powers to the Scottish public. The choice in May2016 will be:

Vote SNP to fight for more powers and if none come to opt for a new Referendum on Independence, or

Vote for the Unionist parties and see Scottish social and economic environment destroyed.

The SNP must get FACTS and REALITY out into the public domain, and do so immediately the HoL and HoC push this appalling bill through. Quite how they do this, I am less clear about. We know the Scottish Corporate Media will lies, smear, lie, exaggerate, and lie, so how? (Genuine question)

HandandShrimp

My gut feeling is that the bill will go through Holyrood…although if it is filleted by the Lords it may never get to Holyrood.

Mundell is Romulan and not to be trusted. He would rename Scotland Greater Northumbria if he got half a chance. However, there are enough titbits in the bill to make it worth adding to Holyrood’s list of powers. His demands to know how they will be used are irrelevant posturing. He is a Tory, his party can set out how they will use them that is all.

We will have power over road signs. I suggest every road sign has the additional legend Vote for Independence

🙂

One_Scot

‘Unionists – particularly @scottishlabour – would turn Scotland into a barren wasteland if that’s what was necessary to stop independence.’

Doug Daniel, if you are out there, that is one of the most intellectually perceptive comments I have read in a long time.

Jack Murphy

OT. Major job losses with HMRC Scottish office losses.

“The tax collection agency, HMRC, is to consolidate its UK network of offices in a move which could see more than 2,000 jobs lost in Scotland. 🙁
More than 8,000 people are currently employed at the agency’s 18 Scottish offices, including major centres in Dundee, Cumbernauld and East Kilbride.”

BBC Scotland:- link to archive.is

galamcennalath

Rev. Stuart Campbell says:

“Looking at it like that, we would “lose” Barnett if we were independent too.”

Yes, of course.

This the BIG point about independence the Unionists (conveniently) overlook. They consider Scotland’s balance sheet after Indy to be identical to the present one which includes UK policies and spending. Aspects which would change for sure.

Their black hole, they witter on about, looks smaller when you reduce defence spending to typical EU levels.

Then there are debt repayments which, as a result of negotiations over assets, are bound to end up proportionately smaller – if we don’t get the assets, we don’t take the debt.

Most important of all, the Indy government would be focusing on policies to grow our economy, not policies for the SE of England.

Barnett or Indy? Easy choice!

yesindyref2

@galamcennalath
Yes, and this is something we can work on, that the divide between YES and NO is disappearing as none of us are happy. What did you want, substantial more powers? So you’re not happy. What did you want, things to stay as they were? That’s not happening it’s a negative package of extra powers being devolved, it’s a trap. I wanted full independence, I’m not happy. So what do we do about it? What’s best for all of us?

I agree with others that it’s on the doorstep, socially, at work if possible, social media. But not in the confrontational way, ignore activists, just talk to people who vote but otherwise don’t take part. Hearts and minds.

Craig P

Scots voted No last year, fully aware that the likely consequences of that vote included being screwed over by UK Tories.

They then voted SNP this year, in a vain attempt to mitigate the effect of their actions in the referendum.

That mitigation is not going to happen. So I am not sure what else the SNP is supposed to do about it until enough voters think this situation through to its logical conclusion – which will be difficult so long as the media they rely on keeps telling them any budget cuts will be the Scottish Government’s fault.

mealer

Latest TNS poll shows Libdems have lost half their support over recent months.Time for Rennie to make way for a fresh face?

Nana

2:45pm, MSPs will discuss the delivery of benefits in Scotland. Watch live online at link to ow.ly

ronnie anderson

@ Alison Rollo [ If she is re-elected then we demand a New Scotland Bill — if this is refused (as it would be!!) then — Ref2 and if it’s YES — ].

What! do you want to see our MPs & the Scottish People suffer more humiliation at the hands of Westminster, they would talk forever & still get Nothing.

heedtracker

link to holyrood.com

34% in front is pretty good, considering what’s being rammed down our throats/buried bt Pacific Quay freak out.

The Press and Journal is interesting today in that instead of Scottish news, it reports stuff like a Princess Anne likes light houses, a super rich dude in London is having fun converting his basement, smiling Wullie Rennie sez SNP bad.

80p worth of UKOK grot.

Am not making up that full page P&J thing about Princess Anne and her love of lighthouses, really I’m not.

Jim Morris

Wikipedia lists 41 sovereign states or territories which are smaller than Scotland. So ‘too wee’ goes off the list. We are still left with ‘too stupid’ and ‘too rich’ as the reasons why we are not to be allowed our independence.

Robert Louis

Well said REV Stu. There is a big freaking red klaxon going off right now at Bute House, and it says, for freaks sake, reject this trap from Westminster. No good will come of it.

Mundell, and his coterie of anti Scotland accolytes within the red and blue tories, are sitting poised, just waiting for the Scots Government to agree to this nonsense, and then the tsunami will be released.

Make no mistake, this is the biggest, deceptive piece of machiavellian trash ever to come out of Westminster.

If the SNP reject it, I have no doubt the people of Scotland will back them 100%. This ‘Scotland’ bill tells us EVERYTHING about the utter, utter contempt which Westminster, red and blue Tories really have for the people of Scotland.

Why, why, why did they so want Scotland to vote NO, when it is clear they hate us so very, very much.

@BoatyJames

Good article Rev.
Another point is that this bill is not what the 55% voted for either. The vast majority of them voted for the status quo and a lot of them want less not more devolution. The percentage that actually voted positively for “The Vow” is almost certainly less than 10% of voters.

Dan Huil

@ heedtracker 1:33pm

The Moray edition of the odious p & j has a front page of the newly-elected cooncillor for Heldon & Laich – Independent but really Tory. He’s gone and pressed the wrong button when voting on flood defences thereby upsetting those locals who voted for him. Shame.

yesindyref2

@Dan Huil
The TNS poll is good, excellent, especially because the SNP aren’t actually doing anything yet towards the Holyrood election, whereas the media onslaught has been steadily on against the SNP.

I think the SNP are content to let it all wash over them and the electorate, wait until the Scotland Bill has gone through the Lords and as others have said, beeen diluted further by parties including Labour. Then when that’s set and ready for passing in the HoC and Royal Assent, let the battle commence. I think that’s a wise policy, the SNP were elected in the General Election to fight for more powers, Devo-Max. They’re doing their best there, and Westminster’s time is not yet over, until it’s gone through the Lords.

Then it will be Holyrood’s turn, Westminster having been seen to fail.

Proud Cybernat

‘The Vow’ delivered:

link to scottcreighton.co.uk

yesindyref2

I could have made that stronger.

Westminster having been seen to fail Scotland.

Petra

”The only means available to the Scottish Government to generate cash to protect the victims of the cuts will be the power to raise income tax. But in a geographically tiny unitary state differential tax rates are wildly impractical, because it’s very easy for people – especially the wealthy who would be chiefly targeted – to move their tax address (and/or themselves entirely) out of Scotland.”

There’s another side to this coin. As we all know Machiavellian Westminster want to force the SG to cover their benefit cuts (which may be clawed back anyway). Nicola Sturgeon has indicated that her party will try to mitigate the cuts as they have done with the bedroom tax.

That’s not going to happen in England. There is no other recourse, agency or charity, for the ordinary English person: No financial aid from any other source. Anyone on low pay who has their working tax credits removed, especially if they have children, would be better off on the dole.

If I lived in England and was going to lose my WTC, was to become homeless (housing benefit payments stripped for under 25s), had half a dozen children (child benefit cuts) or was disabled (cuts to disability living allowance) I would pack in my unsustainable job (if I had one), scrape up the money and head North. Two way traffic: Benefit claimants heading North and wealthy tax-payers heading South.

Westminster’s agenda in ‘giving’ the proposed ‘power ‘s” to Scotland is to ensure that we face an economic and social disaster. It really sticks in their craw that we have free prescriptions, free (to a point) home care, free tuition fees and more than anything have managed to keep afloat following cut after cut to our budget. They want to see all of that go and the SNP castigated from every side …. lose their credibility and popularity. They think … hope …. ultimately lose the Cause.

They are hell bent on destroying our economy / raising unemployment levels such as by cutting our renewable energy subsidies (worth 14 billion of potential investment … whilst planning to help other EU countries): In turn forcing the SG to consider fracking no doubt.

I can just about accept the revengefulness of Westminster, their hatred of the SNP (maybe Scots in general), their jealousy of our successes but I can hardly stomach the Scots, politicians and journalists, who are covering up the facts, promulgating lies and actually seem to be gleeful with the prospect we are facing. Top of the list is Mundell followed by Brown, Murray and Dugdale. I understand that to mention the ‘parcel of …in a nation’ is not acceptable on here but I’ve got to say that if Burns was still around he would be pointing a finger at every last one of them. They’re a bl**dy disgrace and should be hanging their heads in shame.

If the so-called powers to Scotland, economic levers, don’t improve dramatically our SNP MSPs at Westminster should walk out. Nicola Sturgeon should address the Nation (find a means to), outline the situation and do an Eddy the V111, abdicate, and hand the reins over to Dugdale and let them get on with it. That would bring the whole (Independence) situation to a head hopefully without causing a civil war.

The latest from Business for Scotland:

link to businessforscotland.co.uk

That’s the Business for Scotland ‘think tank’ that has been selected as the top business and financial blog in the UK.

link to businessforscotland.co.uk

heedtracker

Dan Huil says:
12 November, 2015 at 1:40 pm
@ heedtracker 1:33pm

P&J Aberdeen front page is a weird non story on what’s going in on a factory demolition up behind George street, royals worshipping and then endless English/London stuff.

That lot of UKOK fanatics usually cut n paste from the Torygraph anyway, then go toryboy mental with it but no mention of Scotland Bill and not much if anything at all on Carmichael three day Edinburgh trial either.

Local far right toryboy hackdom, for far right local toryboys, at its finest:D

ronnie anderson

@ Proud Cybernat PMSL is that ah Dodge. Westminster wont Dodge the comeback from their Scotland Bill,i’ll get rammed rite up em an they dont like it up em.

Takeourblueback

Good article and in tune with my thoughts exactly.

I’m seriously considering forcing SNP to indyref2 by encouraging a Vote No to Europe – still undecided, but grassroots needs to also use the process to better the independence cause.

I Clark

Devious Dave instead of Devo Max

If someone offered you some wine as a reward for doing something and then he pissed all over you afterwards, you would want, at the very least, justice, if not revenge.

It would not help matters if he explained to you that he had fulfilled his promise to you. It’s just that he had neglected to mention his intention to pass the wine through his kidneys first.

Your mood would not be improved, if others also told you should accept what had happened. Maybe you didn’t get exactly what you wanted, but you still got most of the underlying elements in wine. Stop whingeing and get on with it.

There are three main problems for us. One, some people don’t know they’ve been pissed on and if they do question the smell, certain people will tell them it’s wine. How successfully can we overcome their lies?

Two, others sort of know they’ve been pissed on, but how much can we count on them to do something about it?

Three, for those of us who know we’ve been pissed on, do we grit our teeth, try to purify the piss into water and use it to sustain ourselves while we wait for the best opportunity to strike back? Or do we try to kick the big guy in the balls, right now, and demand the wine we were promised?

Not easy problems to solve.

My view? For what its worth. Go for the balls. We won’t get the wine and may get beaten up, but our defiance might bring home to others the true nature of the big guy. An arrogant bully who has only contempt for those he considers inferior.

Over to you SNP. You wanted power. You got it. You’ve got the support and trust of at least half the people of this country. Make the hard decisions.

Wee Jonny

“Why would a UK government, especially a Tory one with nothing to lose in Scotland, voluntarily hand over loads of goodies once it had secured a No vote?”
Because they fuckin said they would!!!

They said that ‘we’ (just us) put the ‘Great’ into Great Britain.
That ‘we’ (all of us) were a family of nations.
That together ‘we’ (all of us) were stronger.
That together ‘we’ (all of us) were safer.
That we (just us) were too wee.
That we (just us) were too poor.
That we (again just us) were too schoopid.
That we (probably just us) were better together.

That’s why they should hand over loads of goodies coz they’re oor fuckin goodies.

But they won’t coz they’re cunts.

Doug Daniel

One-Scot: I am indeed! Ta, muchly.

Gighagirl

The vow was hollow from the start…non specific and mainly timetables for legislation, but the permanence of the Scottish parliament is in the vow…and is not in the Scotland bill.
Fall Guy Gordy was expendable so promised the moon.
Great poll -let’s build on that. The SNP could well present a “clever manifesto” and ask for a mandate for a referendum because of the broken vow. Hope so!

Bill McLean

Muttley 79 – do you really believe they will ever give us control over the media? Do you really believe they will ever give us full control over our economy? Wise up! Westminster will NEVER give Scotland control over anything that will move us closer to Independence. With respect I’m amazed that people keep pushing this FFA, Devo Max even federalism line. We will NEVER be allowed anything that will better life for people in Scotland. The only way is Independence. Learn from their history and their historical greed! You are allowing yourself to be diverted from our aims and the only people that suits is those who have no regard, respect or concern for people in Scotland – in other words unionists!!

Fran

Robert Louis says
Why, why, why did they so want Scotland to vote NO, when it is clear they hate us so very, very much.

Cos they love kickin the shit out of us !

Dcanmore

@Jack Murphy

re: HMRC Scotland job losses …

from this
link to cumbernauld-media.com

to this
link to bbc.co.uk

Luigi

Robert Louis says:

12 November, 2015 at 1:35 pm

If the SNP reject it, I have no doubt the people of Scotland will back them 100%.

Indeed. I am actually looking forward to this devious, watered-down piece of garbage reaching Holyrood. Methinks the SNP have not been sitting on their thumbs since May and have already anticpated every pathetic little WM manouver.

Remember the Cairns cartoon with Hamish waiting at the corner with sharpened claws, for Old John Bull to come stumbling round? WM just can’t see what’s coming!. 🙂

North Chiel

Agree with Galamcennalth, FFA / DEVO MAX has to be viewed as next step.Obviously it is not
what we want, however I feel that next year will be ” the crunch” with a Westminster vote on trident and the Europe referendum. If the SNP reject the bill , and include a pledge of a referendum
on Devo Mundell against Devo Sturgeon ( to be spelled out in detail in manifesto ) this would crystallise the issue and allow the electorate “to see” the options clearly.
Also this referendum cannot be used by Westminster , as would an early 2nd referendum on
Independence, to highlight “the once in a generation” event.
If the result is a “yes” for FFA then non implementation by Westminster within a “reasonable
timescale” could be the lever for 2nd Independence vote.
A manifest pledge on the location of trident ( if Westminster renews) should also be included for May 16 to “ramp up the pressure” with a further referendum on this if necessary.( Thus the
“sovereign will ” of the Scottish people can be explicitly shown on these issues.
If Westminster continues to ignore the “people” then we move into the realms of a “constitutional crisis ” Drastic action would have to be considered thereafter ?

t42

Where is my Admiral Ackbar “It’s A Trap!” meme..

heedtracker

Looked at The Guardian on a PC just now with adblock, with a huge and really snazzy ad for Porsche at the top of their god awful Scotland region section. Porsche adverts in the Graun, says more about them than anything else today, SNP bad, buy a Porsche vile SNP voters

So from the nasty old hypocrite and frauds hell bent on taking down Scottish democracy-

“We notice you’re using an ad-blocker. Perhaps you’ll support us another way? Become a Supporter for just £50 per a year”

to

link to porsche.com

I quite like this one but its tad out of my price range.

Am I UKOK Slabouring the point here, that UKOK media’s repellent in the extreme?

Good:D

kininvie

Over to you SNP. You wanted power. You got it. You’ve got the support and trust of at least half the people of this country. Make the hard decisions.

It’s not up to the ‘party’ as some abstract body, to make hard decisions – those who are members are the party. It’s your decision. You have the power – and the responsibility….

The SNP leadership is in a lonely position here. It needs the support/persuasion of its membership. The way forward for any of you who are members is to discuss this at branch meetings and put forward resolutions.

We have a wee bit of time before the Bill comes before Holyrood. Get your branch decisions formalised and sent directly to Nicola. Or submit them to National Council, or to the Spring Conference.

The SNP know the media shitstorm will fall on them if they spurn these ‘extensive powers’. So the backing of the membership – and of the Yes movement as a whole – will be of great value and comfort.

marydoll

I have NO doubt that the SB will be watered down even more – if thats at all possible- especially with SLAB Lords in HOL.

Delay the decision about the SB until election time and have the Scottish electorate vote on it. It MUST be in SNP manifesto.

Run Scotland like its already independent – mitigate nothing – and
promise nothing. Every answer to an MSM question – wait for the manifesto.

Luigi

Bill McLean says:

12 November, 2015 at 2:12 pm

Muttley 79 – do you really believe they will ever give us control over the media? Do you really believe they will ever give us full control over our economy? Wise up! Westminster will NEVER give Scotland control over anything that will move us closer to Independence. With respect I’m amazed that people keep pushing this FFA, Devo Max even federalism line. We will NEVER be allowed anything that will better life for people in Scotland. The only way is Independence. Learn from their history and their historical greed! You are allowing yourself to be diverted from our aims and the only people that suits is those who have no regard, respect or concern for people in Scotland – in other words unionists!!

No diversion Bill, but rather smart politicking. Remember the unionists generously provided a devomax/FFA stick to beat them hard with in the run up to the referendum. We need to hold them to account. We have them skewered and they are squirming. The big issue is that many soft NO voters (who we need to win over) are still supporting devomax/FFA. Until the penny drops (and it will) that, as you say WM will never agree to it, we need to go through the motions until exhausted. It’s frustrating as hell, but there is a massive, potential harvest of soft NO voters worth hanging on for.

Triangular Ears

Is it not time to revisit that two question referendum that was killed off by Cameron?

Given that The Vow has not been delivered and that bad faith is clearly demonstrable and provable in the Scotland Bill, this is a trigger for another referendum, which doesn’t necessarily have to be a straight independence referendum.

“1 Do you believe The Scotland Bill is an acceptable settlement with respect to the 2014 independence referendum?

If No:

2 Should the settlement be:
a Devo Max [this must be clearly defined in an appendix to the question, eg everything except defence, blah, blah]
b Full independence.”

This could obviously be a huge gamble as you are potentially splitting the independence vote, but it will definitely prove that the electorate are not happy with the Scotland Bill and will justify further change.

Luigi

kininvie says:

12 November, 2015 at 2:25 pm

The SNP know the media shitstorm will fall on them if they spurn these ‘extensive powers’.

You mean like the ones that failed spectacularly to prevent the SNP tsunamis in 2011 and 2015?

Bring it on!. 🙂

heedtracker

Toryboy international boosts toryboy Cammers, shock.

link to theguardian.com

So from the toryboy what just got booted out in OZ but gave the world this

“Tony Abbott told the Times it was “hard to see how the world would be helped by an independent Scotland”.

Mr Abbott said those who would like to see the UK break up were “not the friends of justice… [or] freedom”.

To what he really is and why he’s UKOK toryboy of the day, three cheers sensibledave 2, hip hip huzaah

link to youtube.com

scotspine

I’m with Petra regarding the Bill, in that the FM should find a way of addressing our Nation, outline the pile of shit that is the Bill, reject it and then stand the Govt down to let the Labour pricks flounder and drown in a welter of ineptitude.

Fuck them all.

McBoxheid

English Labour is just that, English, with only one Scottish MP they have absolutely no reason to back the SNP. They are looking after their English voter’s interests and trying to win some back. They know they lost Scotland.

Slab on the other hand, are either to thick to realise that they are a branch office or they are so full of hatred for the SNP that they will risk the future of their constituents and their country for absolutely no political gain.

By supporting ELab,Slab are cutting their own throats.
There are 2 ways out of this.
Reject the Scotland Bill as a manifesto promise or indyref 2 as a manifesto promise.

Alternatively they could use option three, a road map to UDI as the Catalans are currently doing.

Why anyone would want to stay in this poisonous union is beyond me. Why are people still willing to accept the crap we have suffered before, during and after indyref and still try to get Westminster to play fair is beyond rational thinking.

If this Scotland Bill becomes law in it’s present form, the Scotland should go on strike. Stop working, stop playing their games. We will never win by playing their rules.

wull

I may be wrong, but seem to remember the SNP leadership saying they would accept a Bill that included all the Smith Commission’s proposals. They were not happy about these proposals, which they regarded as inadequate, if not derisory, but having participated in the Smith process they would accept its outcome.

This was an honourable position for the SNP to take, even if to many in the Yes campaign it may have seemed rather weak. Like everyone else, the SNP were well aware that Smith’s final watered-down proposals fell far short of the Home Rule/Near Federalism that had been touted and promised prior to the Referendum.

What looked weak at that time may now prove to be a strength, showing the SNP to have been prudent, wise, and prescient. All the SNP have to do is to point out the discrepancies between Smith’s proposals and those put forward in the Scotland Bill. Instead of implementing Smith’s feeble proposals, which were already squelching from having been so greatly watered down, the Scotland Bill has – I suppose – sunk (most of) them altogether.

I do not have ‘Smith’ in front of me, or indeed the Scotland Bill: I am therefore unable to give anyone a blow by blow account of the extent to which the above statement is true. However, presuming it is, couldn’t the SNP devise a vote in the Scottish parliament which will highlight what the Conservatives – and Labour – have done with ‘Smith’?

I see no reason why the Scottish Government could not cut the Scotland Bill into two bits, the first comprising those (presumably few) parts of it that do comply with Smith’s proposals and the second consisting of those (no doubt many) parts which do not. Holyrood would then vote to accept the first, and reject the second.

Even if the UK Government, or Westminster more widely, squeals that this is illegal, because it is an ‘all or nothing’ offer, and yells that that their beloved Scotland Bill cannot be cut in two in this way, the Scottish Government should just go ahead and do it anyway.

The squealing and yelling from the Mother of Parliaments will simply prove that the Scotland Bill is their baby, demonstrating their real reasons for bringing it into the world in the first place. The ‘ill will towards Scotland’ with which it was conceived will be hard to hide, even for the MSM. Why are the Unionist Parties who set up the Smith Commission (supoposedly to ‘fulfil’ the Vow) not following its proposals?

I think the SNP could do well with this, as could the pro-independence movement, not least by highlighting how dishonouarbly Scotland has been treated in all of this.

Most of the people who read this site know that already, of course, and all too well. But don’t forget – a lot of fellow Scots are still to be convinced. This really could help them to see better what has been happening all along.

Kenny

One strong option might be for the SNP to stand on an explicit platform of more/better powers next year. For example, power over tax credits could be one clear demand, as could greater devolution of social security powers. Energy policy is another one, and one where the SNP could co-operate with the Greens and RISE. This emphasises the SNP’s democratic credentials while also giving the clearest possible message that this is NOT what Scotland voted for. Moreover, it will leave Labour and the Tories fighting side by side once again to stop the SNP at any cost. It will be an ugly fight and it will need to be handled with care to avoid it looking like nothing but “seeking grudge and grievance,” but the SNP has some smart people who are used to a media war against them. It can be made to work.

galamcennalath

Triangular Ears says:
“Is it not time to revisit that two question referendum that was killed off by Cameron?”

IMO, we’ve all moved on, so No.

The result of IndyRef1 was a rather woolly, we want DevoMax. What did they give us – DevoCameron.

If there is to be a referendum it should be their best final devolution offer, versus independence. I believe we are seeing their idea of devolution to the max in DevoCameron.

They won’t agree to DevoMore. They won’t agree to test their offer against Indy.

However we have the May election. I think this is the opportunity to flush WM out of the brambles and force them to state in clear terms, “this is all the devolution you are getting”.

One way I have suggested is to seek a mandate to negotiate DevoMax Home Rule with a fall back of IndyRef2. They won’t negotiate. We move onwards and upwards.

One_Scot

The only way the Scottish Government could ever get any message across the whole of Scotland would be if we had a neutral TV New channel for Scotland.

Until this happens it will always be an uphill struggle.

Taranaich

Here’s another idea I had:

1. The Bill gets through the Lords, having stripped it of even more powers.

2. The Bill comes to Holyrood, and there’s a vote to adopt it.

3. The Scottish government decide that since the Bill is completely and woefully inadequate, that they will change the bill to better reflect the will of the Scottish People.

3. The Scottish government then campaigns the 2016 election with a manifesto that sets out the changes they will make to the Scotland Bill upon election (welfare, broadcasting, taxes etc), effectively turning it into a referendum on devo-max.

4. This will, of course, put Holyrood right against Westminster. However, Holyrood will cite the sovereignty of the Scottish people as having precedence over the sovereignty of the UK parliament when it comes to Scottish affairs. And if the people show they want these powers by voting for the party which places this in their manifesto, then the UK government has no choice but to respect that, or risk jeopardising the Union itself.

5. Ultimately the 2016 election will be fought by those who will put the sovereignty of the Scottish people first (SNP et al) or those who put the sovereignty of the UK Parliament first (Unionists). And given the UK is supposed to be a democracy, it would be very strange indeed if Scottish parties would actually argue against even allowing the will of the Scottish people to overrule the UK Parliament, given the great song and dance they made about “the settled and sovereign will” of the Scottish people in the referendum.

The SNP has been bold in the past: their principles on English-only bills has changed, their stances on the Euro and NATO have flipped, they’ve made radical changes over the years. And even after everything, the people of Scotland seem to trust them more than any other party.

Even if they accept the Bill, they surely have something up their sleeve.

Robert Peffers

@TheGreatBaldo says: 12 November, 2015 at 11:17 am:

” … After all, that is what the Scottish voters decided they wanted on Sept 18th last year.”

I think we can safely say that since September 18 there has been a great opening of eyes in every corner of Scotland. The proportion of those wanting full independence has most certainly changed since then.

“Only plausible option is to practically demonstrate that the ‘powers’ granted simply don’t work.”

I may be wrong but I believe that fact has now dawned upon a great many of those who feel they were cheated in the referendum campaign.

I do not know a single YES campaigner who has not had certain NO voters express the view to them that they wished they had voted YES.

The new, so called, powers are like a 45gal drum of toxic waste buried in a landfill site close by a built-up area in Scotland. It may have been safe when it was sneakily dumped but the prevailing wet environment of Scotland has now rusted away the steel drum with soon to happen predictable results.

I’m betting a majority of the now politically aware and switched on Scottish electorate are well aware of the Establishments obdurate intention to defraud Scotland. Such obduracy comes so naturally to these dishonest and self-serving creatures.

They actually justify their crass actions to themselves as justifiably in the service of the Union. Just like Alistair Carmichael is doing right now in a court of law.

I am of the opinion that a majority in Scotland now sees right through the Establishment and its propaganda and independence is a great deal closer than many thought on September 19th last year.

galamcennalath

North Chiel says:
“Agree with Galamcennalth, FFA / DEVO MAX has to be viewed as next step.”

… but only as a stalking horse. It will never happen. They will never give us it. However, we need to get them to say so.

There are two choices – what WM currently propose or independence. There is no other option available, IMO.

It suits WM to have people believe that someday, somehow, WM will give us DevoMax. It needs to be killed off, buried, and the grave hidden under concrete!

yesindyref2

@wull
I think you’re right. The SNP stood on the patform in the GE of holding Westminster’s feet to the fire over delivering Smith, and that’s what some of those that voted in the 56 MPs would be entitled to expect. So the SNP have worked non-stop to deliver that, and to try for FFA as well. They should be seen as having tried their best, and failed only because of Westminster – and insufficient support from the Labour Party.

Petra

@ Dcanmore says at 2:17 pm ”@Jack Murphy re: HMRC Scotland job losses …

from this link to cumbernauld-media.com

to this link to bbc.co.uk

Thanks for the links Dcanmore. I wonder how many no voters will be aware of the fact that one threat after another made by Westminster / Scottish Unionist were nothing more than a load of old Tommyrot?

I know I posted this earlier but I’m posting it again to remind everyone of the level of ignorance exhibited by the pig loving, millionaire simpleton that’s running this country. This is the man, Prime Minister, that Nicola Sturgeon, our 56 SNP MSPs and the Scots in general are supposed to look up to / believe in. This is the man who wants to Lord it over the Scots. This gives you SOME insight into his mentality and sums up how the UK is going down the veritable stank. If you haven’t seen it already take a look.

Chunky Mark: ‘Is David Cameron the Most Stupidest Person in Britain??’

link to youtube.com

Kevin Evans

I would have liked a situation where we could have worked with the new Scotland bill but it’s obvious it’s unworkable and it is designed to be unworkable.

The bill should be rejected – it’s not devo max as close to federalism (never forget that is the platform the union fought the last days of the refurendum on).

Devo max as the union saw it was battered our and dissolved by “smith” so even before the bill was discussed in Westminster they had already went against there “vow”.

Now even smith has been dissolved into this farce called the “Scotland bill”

The bottom line is – no one, and I mean no one signed up for this Scotland bill. A few signed up for devo max. Well that’s out. Most signed up for smith. Well that’s out now too. But no one signed up for this Scotland bill. Soft no’s. Hard no unionist didn’t even sign up for this bill.

The economy was better togethers best tool during the referendum. Most no’s decided they’d be better off finically in the union. This new Scotland bill insures no one in Scotland will be better off in the union so even the no voters didn’t vote for this new bill.

Reject the bill Scottish government now. It’s an insult to everyone in Scotland – no voters and yes voters.

Robert Peffers

@Itchybiscuit says: 12 November, 2015 at 11:27 am:

” .. Just two points off the top of my head and these people wonder why the meeja is going down the tubes…”

The meeja is not just going down the tubes it has almost gone so far down those tubes as to almost arrived at the sewage works. They just haven’t realised it yet.

Tick! Tock!

galamcennalath

One_Scot says:
“The only way the Scottish Government could ever get any message across the whole of Scotland would be if we had a neutral TV New channel for Scotland.”

You are correct, however, we don’t need to get the message through to every potential Indy supporter among the NOs – just enough of them.

The iron is hot.

The SNP have a majority, and hopefully will have one after May. The Tories are trying to force through their most extreme policies early in their term. We have grassroots. We have the upper hand online. Indy support is growing and is probably above 50%.

We need to make our move in the next few years using the tools we currently have.

McBoxheid

Kenny says:
12 November, 2015 at 2:50 pm

One strong option might be for the SNP to stand on an explicit platform of more/better powers next year. For example, power over tax credits could be one clear demand, as could greater devolution of social security powers. Energy policy is another one, and one where the SNP could co-operate with the Greens and RISE. This emphasises the SNP’s democratic credentials while also giving the clearest possible message that this is NOT what Scotland voted for. Moreover, it will leave Labour and the Tories fighting side by side once again to stop the SNP at any cost. It will be an ugly fight and it will need to be handled with care to avoid it looking like nothing but “seeking grudge and grievance,” but the SNP has some smart people who are used to a media war against them. It can be made to work.

Sorry Kenny, asking for more powers doesn’t work. Scotland has been lied to, bullied and cheated by Westminster for far to long. Look at the the whole devolution process to date. At every point, we have had beg for crumbs of what is already ours.

This political rhetoric is coming to a head, like a nasty boil just waiting to be lanced. It’s up to us now. The people have to do this, bercause the politicians won’t.

What happened when the people in East Berlin could smell and end to the DDR? They swarmed onto the streets and over the wall and could not be stopped. They took that final step and got their country back.

The tories are taking the piss, all of them, blue red and yellow. People have to take the final step themselves.
Rejecting the unionist parties in Scotland unequivically at the Holyrood elections won’t be enough if the SNP don’t ask for a mandate in their manifesto. If they don’t then it’s time to vote them out.

yesindyref2

People ask why FFA when we want Independence?

I think from the Union point of view that if they had delivered FFA it would have blunted the urge for Independence, set it back some years, and reduced the current support for Indy from 50% perhaps even down to 30%. The UK itself has problems, and perhaps from that they could have addressed their own Constitutional problems, a rise in interest from the “regions”, Yorskire, North-East, North-West, South-West, London and Midlands. And perhaps slowly moved to a full federal system which could work if there were enough English federal regions rather than the one big overwelming voting block.

From our point of view, the Scottish Government would have had most of the full powers to grow the economy, tackle social justice, and differentiate ourselves from the UK way of doing things (austerity austerity austerity). It would have had to include full borrowing powers. It would demonstrate that Scotland was able to stand mostly alone, we would have had most of the Ministries set up, and far more control over our economy. A big step towards Independence for those who like the idea, but were too cautious to step out and grab it with both hands last September.

Would it last? Perhaps, perhaps not. I doubt England would move to an internal federal system, and even if so it could take decades. Meanwhile Scotland would give say £3.5 billion to Westminster for defence, including Trident which many don’t like, as also many don’t like the UK’s “foreign adventures”. Another sum of money for International affairs which would prevent us from realising the full potential of “Scotland the Brand”. And of course we would have no control over the money supply, interest rates. Once the rest of the pwoers and levers were assimilated and used, dissatisfaction might grow again. Meanwhile though it would be as stable fiscally as the current devolution settlement.

It would most likely delay Independence but on the othre hand would make it less “risky”, as we’d already have most of the neccessary in place. That’s the gradualist approach, and as well as supporting the flat out Indy or bust approach, I supported the gradualist approach, still do.

But as for what this actual Scotland Act will actually give us, you can stuff it.

Angra Mainyu

Ben, “Federalism within the UK is not a feasible option because of…”

I won’t bother pasting your list of reasons which is rather flimsy in my opinion.

What you should understand is that population size is also given as a reason for a Federal structure making sense in the UK.

You might also bear in mind that similar arguments to those you are making here against Federalism were given in respect of and against Devolution. Identical arguments actually.

The upshot is that, however piecemeal, this is the direction Scotland is heading in at the moment in relation to the UK.

Note: there is nothing in principle or practicality that would stop Scotland having a Federal relationship with the UK whilst Wales and NI enjoyed the more fully incorporated relationship they have now.

galamcennalath

A short play based on the likely negotiations between the Scottish Government and Westminster sometime in late summer 2015.

Act 1, Scene 1

A large meeting room in Whitehall with representatives from each side.

Nicola Stugeon, “You made solemn promises in the referendum campaign to give us real economic powers. We won a mandate in the General Election. We won a further mandate in the recent Scottish Elections. Your party, the Tories, have no mandate in Scotland. So now we demand you accept the democratic will of the Scottish people and deliver real powers to the Scottish Parliament.”

David Cameron, “Points noted. It’s been nice meeting up with you again Nicola. Don’t call us, we’ll call you.”

The End

yesindyref2

I didn’t finish the second last paragraph properly. I’d add:

It’s almost inevitable that this would bring about an eventual rise of support for full Independence, but with far less arguments to use against it, making it more certain for the next Ref – which might, however, be a few years later. it would make it a straight choice: YES or NO.

ClanDonald

A major reason that I voted yes in last year’s referendum was because of the likelihood thatthe Tories would try to implement exactly this kind of scenario. It was clear from the Strathclyde commission that they’ve been planning this for a long time.

I voted against it then and, given the chance, I would still vote against it again now.

Bill McLean

Luigi – sorry to have to disagree with you but remember Alex offered to have FFA/Devo Max on the referendum ballot!
Did any of all those supporters of FFA/Devo Max come forward? Take them for fools at our peril. They know that devolution of broadcasting, full tax raising etc would quickly lead to independence – they also know that Westminster cannot afford to allow it. Diversion is working against us so far. We must reject the in-between options as we are only playing into unionist hands and concentrate on the persuadable who appear to be increasing by the day. Hard-line unionists only have time for one kind of nationalism – British!

Sensible LenziePar

They could tell Westminster, “We’ve passed it on to Chilcott; we’ll get back to you.”

Capella

Re picture caption: the Trojan Horse only held a few soldiers. They then snuck out at night and opened the gates for the army to enter. Clever.

ian

Why not have a referendum next year when the New Scottish Devolution bill is announced and put it to the people of Scotland its all very democratic so WM could’nt complain.The BBC and the MSN’s heads would be spinning and it would also let the SNP of the hook.Seems a no brainer and would also force many no voters to confront the issues they dont want to hear or dont know about.Seems a win win for the SNP.

Marian

It would be extremely surprising if the leadership of the SNP allowed themselves to be bounced into accepting a Scotland Bill that is a poisoned chalice for Scotland and by default the SNP.

Its a sad fact that there hasnt been any scrutiny or criticism of the Bill in the media but all of that will change when MSP’s get the opportunity to scrutinise the Bill in detail line by line, and these details become known to Scots voters.

The SNP’s majority of MSP’s can then vote against accepting the Bill when it comes to a vote for approval at Holyrood.

seanair

Doncha’ love all this pooling and sharing?
Re the Smith Commission, why doesn’t Lord Smith write a letter to all the rags explaining how he feels at his conclusions being sliced and diced in Westminster? Oh of course he’s a Lord–he can’t upset the applecart.

David McDowell

O/T

I think Mitchell proved the case against Carmichael.

He drew an unambiguously clear line between a “political” lie and a “personal” lie.

A “political” lie is one told in the arena of public discourse, where one politician openly accuses another of duplicity and an opponent denies it, and the electorate can decide for themselves which, if any, is telling the truth.

A “personal” lie is one told outside the arena of public discourse, where a politician conceals from public view a dirty little secret about themselves that neither the electorate, nor any political opponent, can deny, since only the liar, and perhaps one or two privileged confidantes, has access to the truth.

That makes it crystal clear: Carmichael’s lie was “personal”, not “political”.

Iona

But here’s the thing. While I fully understand why people are reticent about raising tax is that not what eventually has to happen to the higher earners if we are ever going to make this a fairer society. Is that not what we constantly complaining is not happening at a UK level?

Perhaps we forget what we have in Scotland. I was commenting recently to a friend that I was hearing more and more English voices around. There is a reason people want to live in Scotland … and it is not the weather!!!

I believe that many many people want to live in this country because of it’s commitment to a fairer society. In that respect we are all ‘strivers’ to use that most obnoxious of terms.

So what about the tax? I read an article yesterday in Bella where it was suggested that people earning in excess of 50K should perhaps experience increased rates of tax by 3p/£? It drew the kind of comments you might expect but …
if I understand this correctly (please tell me if this calculation is wrong) it would mean that it would take someone on an income in excess of 90K to be paying an extra £1200 in tax. Less than the much feared and publicised £1300 loss which Osborne intends should be picked up by our most vulnerable members of society.

Shopping in Waitrose v foodbank
This is not about making the well off poor. This is about asking them to pay more because they can.

Something has got to give.

DerekM

@ Capella

Aye Capella and it led the the phrase beware of Greeks bearing gifts.

I cant remember who said it but it sticks with me ,why beware of Greeks bearing gifts it should be beware of Trojans as they are well stupid.

Jimbo

It is patently obvious that when conspiring together to achieve their shared goal to damage the SNP that these Unionist parties were well aware that their ploy would also do serious damage to Scotland’s economy and people.

It speaks volumes of the people who govern us from London that they are prepared to wilfully undermine Scotland’s economy and financially hurt Scotland’s people for their own narrow political interests – while at the same time asking us to vote for their dishonest and unprincipled political parties and to reject the only political party in history to put Scotland and her people first.

The 2014 referendum result must have convinced them that Scotland’s people really are stupid. This is the Union dividend. This is what they call better together.

I sincerely hope that Scotland’s SNP government jettison this contemptible Scotland Bill.

Sinky

From the TNS Poll showing SNP support at 58%, Ms Sturgeon emerged as the favourite party leader, with 44 per cent saying they like her (scoring between 7 and 10) while 25 per cent disliked her (scoring 1-4). The SNP leader is held in high regard by SNP supporters (82 per cent like her) and is the most popular party leader among undecided voters (liked by 28 per cent). She is also liked by more Labour supporters (32 per cent) than Ms Dugdale (25 per cent).

Les Wilson

For those interested in the Willie McRae case, as I am anyway,
have a look at this.
link to justiceforwillie.com

Rock

The SNP’s slowly slowly softly softly approach was extremely successful, giving us a Yes-No referendum.

But now it has reached a dead end.

The SNP should now have full independence as its top priority and reject the Scotland Bill.

Losing the 2016 election will be a better alternative to being in charge of the trap created by the unionists.

Bring back the 56 SNPs now and stand on a full independence manifesto in 2016.

Let them take our SNP representatives to the UK supreme court like the Catalonians. We will all be part of the mob that accompanies them. At least 45% of us.

muttley79

@Bill McLean

Muttley 79 – do you really believe they will ever give us control over the media? Do you really believe they will ever give us full control over our economy? Wise up! Westminster will NEVER give Scotland control over anything that will move us closer to Independence. With respect I’m amazed that people keep pushing this FFA, Devo Max even federalism line. We will NEVER be allowed anything that will better life for people in Scotland. The only way is Independence. Learn from their history and their historical greed! You are allowing yourself to be diverted from our aims and the only people that suits is those who have no regard, respect or concern for people in Scotland – in other words unionists!!

Where did I say that FFA is going to be delivered in my post? That is right I never said it was going to be!.. My post was in relation to the Scotland Bill, and I was merely saying that I would prefer FFA to the status quo, or the coming status quo. I am really not sure why you have jumped in on my post given that I never commented about delivery.

Ruby

Doug Daniel says:
12 November, 2015 at 11:45 am
That is their first priority. It’s possible to be against independence but still put the interests of Scotland first (although I obviously think putting Scotland first inevitably leads to independence), but these people choose not to do that. Labour do not think “would devolving this be beneficial for Scotland?”, they think “would devolving this lead to independence?” That’s all they care about. They would turn Scotland into a barren wasteland if that was what they had to do to stop support for independence.

Ruby replies

Mr Alistair Carmichael (Orkney and Shetland) (LD):
My objection to full fiscal autonomy remains that, in my view, it constitutes effectively independence by the back door, and therefore it does not respect the decision we reached as a nation last September.
House of Commons 8th June 2015 Scotland Bill debate

Sir Edward Leigh:
Could it just be that the Tory right, as the hon. Gentleman describes it, and the present Labour shadow Chancellor both recognise that the one way to defeat nationalism is to have a real Parliament in Scotland with full power over what it taxes and spends and that at that stage the SNP will have to take responsibility for its own actions? It will become a grown-up political party and we will start to defeat it in Scotland.
House of Commons 9th November 2015

Robert Peffers

@Colin Dunn says: 12 November, 2015 at 12:08 pm:

” …However, does the Scottish Government have the power to hold such a referendum?”

No Colin, the Scottish Government does not have the power to hold a referendum but the legally Sovereign people they represent do.

The entire history of this damned Union has hinged upon a certain fact. The independent Scottish Legal System has been the main barrier to English domination since 1320 and the Declaration of Arbroath.

Facts – In 1603 the law of the three country Kingdom of England was still, “The Divine Right of Kings”, thus when James VI of Scotland inherited the English Crown he could, under Kingdom of England law, have just tagged the three country Kingdom onto his existing Scottish Kingdom as per Divine Right. No such thing happened as James, not being sovereign in Scotland, had no, “Divine Right”, to do so. We the Sovereign People hold that legal right.

James moved to England where he was sovereign and only once returned to Scotland but he tried the rest of his life to form a union.

In 1688 the English Parliament seized power and deposed James II of England but lacked the legal power to depose James VII as Scotland was still independent. The English imported King Billy and Queen Mary of Orange but removed from them the Royal veto over parliament, (took away their Divine Right). This made the three country Kingdom of England a Constitutional Monarchy but not only could they not legally depose the King Of Scots but they could not make Scotland part of that Constitutional Monarchy.

That was what the Jacobite Uprisings were really about and these continued for almost 40 years AFTER the forced Treaty Of Union. That Union had/has only two signatory kingdoms as the English, under Divine Right, had annexed Wales in 1284 and all Ireland in 1542. It is a bipartite union of two legally equally sovereign partners.

In 1689 the Scots made a Claim of Right and again in 1989. Those Claims of Right really are reasserting that the people of Scotland are still legally sovereign and as such, if a majority of us decide to end the Union then we legally can do so.

Ironically three prominent names on that second Claim of Right were Alistair Darling, Gordon Brown and Donald Dewar. These cynical political frauds signed to aver we Scots are legally Sovereign yet campaigned to have us remain in a marriage like union in which we have become an increasingly abused equally sovereign partner.

The time has come to seek a legal Divorce Decree Absolute on the ever increasing grounds of mental and physical cruelty.

Iain Gray's Subway Lament

Okay Admiral Ackbar, let’s leave aside the fact that there is ZERO chance of Nicola dumbly walking into a ‘trap’ everyone BUT EVERYONE knew was coming. (at least you didn’t claim walking into it would kill the SNP STONE DEAD, which is something)

If you really want to help Stu then you exert what influence you have and make sure as many people as possible STOP calling it the Scotland Bill and name it correctly and truthfully as Cameron’s Scotland Bill.

I mean all the time and at every single opportunity you have until the Scottish public cannot move without hearing about Cameron’s Scotland Bill.

You do that and the chances of it ever being accepted by scots becomes vanishingly small.

It really is THAT simple.

Iain Gray's Subway Lament

Okay then Admiral Ackbar, let’s leave aside the fact that there is ZERO chance of Nicola dumbly walking into a ‘trap’ everyone BUT EVERYONE knew was coming. (at least you didn’t claim walking into it would kill the SNP STONE DEAD, which is something)

If you really want to help Stu then you exert what influence you have and make sure as many people as possible STOP calling it the Scotland Bill and name it correctly and truthfully as Cameron’s Scotland Bill.

I mean all the time and at every single opportunity you have until the Scottish public cannot move without hearing about Cameron’s Scotland Bill.

You do that and the chances of it ever being accepted by scots becomes vanishingly small.

It really is THAT simple.

ronnie anderson

Yakety Yak ALL THE WHILE OUR MONEY FLOWS SOUTH

HMRC job losses is another way of hampering a Independant Scottish Gov. I,ve said it before Westminster WILL LAY WASTE TO SCOTTISH STUCTURES & INDUSTRIES BEFORE INDEPENDENCE.

Make no mistake here People,we,re not getting anything from Westminster,as several posters have said look at the history.

McCrone report, now what were they frightened of at that time SNP & Independence. Now there,s more OIL & more still to be discovered West Coast,they need us more than we need them.

Proud Cybernat

The Scottish Govt. is merely allowing the London Tory Govt. enough time and rope to finally bury the Devo-Max ruse (lie) once and for all.

Devo-Maxers in Scotland (of which there is a sizeable percentage) must be shown that their idea of Devo Max is very different to London’s idea of it–and never shall the twais meet. Devo Max will simply NEVER happen. That is the message that must be hammered home to every single Devo Max supporter in Scotland. It is OFF the table and, in truth, was never really on it.

There is little point in the Scottish Govt. seeking more powers from the Tory Govt. in London because there is not a snowball’s chance in hell of anything of any substance or significance ever being devolved from London; nothing that will allow Scotland true control of its own destiny.

As many here have oft said: Devolution must be GIVEN (by London). Independence is TAKEN by us. It is THAT simple.

Right now we are in the Devo Max endgame where it will now becoem Crystal Clear as to the extent London is prepared to go in devolving power. And when that becoems clear to the Devo Maxers they will have a choice. Do you accept London’s ‘offer’ of Devo-Nano/Poisoned chalice or are you now prepared to bite the bullet, accept the reality of Scotland’s constitutional straight-jacket and opt for full independence?

That is where we are at. And that is the choice that will very soon be confronting the Devo Maxers. I just hope they see sense and bite the bullet.

(Note: Caps for emphasis only–not shouting at anyone, honest).

Ethan Blair

“Iain Gray’s Subway Lament says:
I mean all the time and at every single opportunity you have until the Scottish public cannot move without hearing about Cameron’s Scotland Bill.

You do that and the chances of it ever being accepted by scots becomes vanishingly small.

It really is THAT simple.”

There’s probably allot of truth in that.
At least when it fails it’ll be seen as Cameron’s Failure.

JimF

I don’t know how the numbers stack up, but how about reducing the top rate of tax to draw the millionaires in, and cutting airport duty to allow commuting. A higher value vat take may offset it.

Ruby

One of my main reasons for voting YES was that I don’t want to live in a warmongering country with the 4th largest defence budget in the world, a country with weapons of mass destruction, a country that goes to war illegally.

I would never have voted for devo-max or FFA had their been that option.

I would be happy with FFA if that did as Alistair Carmichael suggested led to Independence by the back door.

NO voters have given Westminster carte blanche to do whatever they like with Scotland and most definitely what they would like is to destroy the SNP and ensure Scotland is an economic basket case.

North Chiel

Galamcennalth , yes a “stalking horse” it needs to be “flushed out” .absolutely,
this then can be used as a lever for 2nd referendum. The post from “Taranaich” posted at 0256pm
looks to be a very good proposal or something along similar lines to this .Denying the “sovereign will of the Scottish people” is surely a “material change in circumstances”??

Ruby

Cameron’s Scotland Bill is that where English Tories with the support of English Labour tell Scotland what they can and can’t have?

Cameron’s Scotland Bill that was voted through by English votes?

English votes for Scotland Bill.

yesindyref2

@Rock
As one of the 45% who voted YES I won’t be part of that mob, and I doubt many others will be either.

We had our first Independence Referendum last September and 55% voted NO, that’s a democratic majority. Until Indy Ref 2 that majority stands. The only exceptions are:

1). if Indy Ref 2 is refused by Westminster
2). Indy Ref 2 returns a YES majority and Westminster refuses to honour it.

Then I’ll be there, but at the moment the only democratic vote so far has been for NO. Democracy is majority rule or it’s nothing.

Ruby

‘HMRC reorganisation could see 2,500 Scots jobs go’

Bill McLean

Muttley 79 – nowhere in my post did I write that you suggested or wrote that FFA would be “delivered” – although from reading your post again (1238) it would appear to suggest that you do believe that! “I support FFA because etc” and “We would have etc” would imply some expectation of that situation. You write “I am really not sure why you have jumped in on my post”. As a continual reader, and sometime poster, I believed that was the point of posting – so that others, who agree or otherwise, could follow the topic. Surely, by now, those of us who want the best for our country and the people who live here, realize that Westminster will NEVER do anything that reduces their income from Scotland as FFA/Devo-Max or federalism would do!

Rock

Robert Peffers,

“No Colin, the Scottish Government does not have the power to hold a referendum but the legally Sovereign people they represent do.”

How does that work in practice?

“Sovereign” my foot.

Wuffing Dug

@Ronnie Anderson @4.16

I believe that the British government is trying to disrupt north Sea oil export infrastructure through targeted early decommissioning campaigns.

The oil will then be tankered to ports / processing facilities of their choice by-passing the existing network in Scotland entirely.

Some platforms are hubs, you take them out of the equation the whole system ceases to function.

Look at the situation right now with BP / schiehallion field / sullom Voe.

Is that whole thing just bullshit? They can’t process the crude there? Really?

Needs investigating….

Rock

yesindyref2,

“but at the moment the only democratic vote so far has been for NO. Democracy is majority rule or it’s nothing.”

The referendum was extremely undemocratic.

Have you forgotten Pravda GB’s role in it?

The supposedly ‘neutral’ Electoral Commission went as far as to distribute the No campaign’s propaganda for it at public expense because the No camapign itself didn’t have the manpower to do it.

The purring queen intervened on behalf of No.

Then there was the ‘Vow’.

We don’t live in a democracy, never have and never will until we have the guts to be part of a mob that brings down the establishment, peacefully Ghandian style of course.

Luigi

I think most of us now agree that we are fast approaching the time when rope-a-dope has run it’s course, the gloves come off and the real fight-back begins. The exact timing of this I’m not sure, TBH, although when “Cameron’s” watered down Scotland Bill finally reaches Holyrood seems to be a likely opportunity. Then all hell breaks loose. 🙂

Alastair

It’s not the Scoland Bill
It’s the Scotland Bile.

Iain More

I wouldn’t waste time renegotiating the Scotland Bill. I wouldn’t even waste the steam of a one of my shites on it.

The Election next May should be nothing less than a Referendum on Constitutional Progress. Give Westmidden one year to legislate for Devo Max or we go UDI.

The SNP should against the Scotland Bill in that context.

Andrew McLean

O/T
Carmichael trial concludes, just watch this link to youtube.com And remember that he is a self confessed liar! Nicola wipes the floor with him, pompous bastard!I Know play the ball not the man but he is the ball, and in so many ways!

Jamie

I wonder why you are against FFA or DEVO MAX? Scotland would be better off if it had control of everything except defence? Why are you against it? Surely if there was a referendum on this issue you would support Devo Max or FFA?

Iain More

Off topic

On HMRC Mr Grumpy Naw Bag was greetin intae his pint about how his son might lose his job at HMRC in the reorganisation.

He then went on tae weep intae his dram about how the UKOK Govt is moving to reduce its liabilities in relation to UKOK Banks by reducing the guaranteed safe deposit limit to 75K from 85K.

I just love those Unionist Dividends!

Jamie

I just noticed someone else asked and you answered my question.

You say the defence budget is too big but the white paper suggested spending a similar amount but on patrol vessels and other things as needed so I presume the SNP felt that the defence budget would be affordable.

If Scotland can not survive without barnett (which i do not believe I think Scotland would prosper) best find out with devo max and be bailed out by england rather than go full independent and fall flat on the face, no?

Onwards

@Iona

The problem with raising income tax is our particular situation, where it is possible for some of the highest earners to switch their declared place of residency between Scotland or England.

It only takes a handful of the very highest earners to relocate to end up losing money on the highest band.

link to scottish.parliament.uk

Only 0.55% of taxpayers pay at the highest rate, but they account for 15% of total income tax in Scotland.

Adjusting the 40% rate, the Scottish Government could gain a few hundred million more the first year, but at the price of making Scotland relatively uncompetitive for new investment whilst we are still part of the UK. It would result in a gradual relative decline.

There is a good reason that income tax is the only main tax that is being devolved, and it isn’t to benefit this country.

If we had a broad range of taxes we could spread the costs across business and individuals, or target certain areas to grow the economy.

heedtracker

To think we could have booted out these imperial master/morons for good. Osborne’s in charge.

link to theguardian.com

Rear Adm John Gower, a retired submariner, said that building a new generation of submarines is a task of epic proportions. Gower told the Times: “You have to fit, within a steel tube capable of silently surviving at great depth, the nuclear reactor and the propulsion and power generation trains, complex electrical, water, high pressure air and hydraulic systems.

“On top of that you have weapon systems, both tactical and strategic, electronics, computers and the sensors and sonars. After all of that, you must squeeze in people and the facilities for them to live for months at a time.”

At least he’s learning how they work, rancid The Graun gives our government one line

The Scottish National party is due to hold a Commons debate on Trident later this month. It could table a vote to highlight divisions in the Labour party.

Angra Mainyu

Iona: “But here’s the thing. While I fully understand why people are reticent about raising tax is that not what eventually has to happen to the higher earners if we are ever going to make this a fairer society. Is that not what we constantly complaining is not happening at a UK level?”

Not necessarily. You can redistribute wealth and tackle poverty without raising Tax, by increasing economic productivity and growth, for example. This is precisely what the SNP are committed to doing.

The problem with simply taxing and increasing welfare is that it doesn’t address the underlying problem which is unemployment (to a large extent). Better to treat the disease rather than the symptoms, if you follow.

Create lots of jobs and economic activity and not only do you reduce welfare dependency but you get more to spend through taxation. It’s a win-win.

The appeal of independence is that we would be able to nurture our economy, invest in areas of growth and potential like the Germans do, rather than simply trying to attract low-skilled and low-paid jobs such as that found in call centres.

yesindyref2

@Jamie
At the time of the White Paper, Scotland’s share of the UK defence budget was around £3.5 billion, and the SNP’s proposal was for £2.5 billion. On International Relations, as in embassies, the White Papre proposal was quite modest, and after all we would be able to use the EU embassies including the UK ones, and the UK uses Canadian ones etc.

I suspect Scotalnd would want to spend proportionately more to help the Scotland Brand, but rather than plush old empire style fixed ambassadors we’d have visiting ambassadors responsible for say 6, and mostly a trade mission, but that’s just my visuatlisation.

I think probably the cost of defence + IE would be the same FFA or Indy, but we’d get more for our groats in terms of bringing business in and out of Scotland. One of the huge benefits of iScotland is Scotland the Brand, which is fairly weak now submerged under the UK but couldn’t help but grow enormously with Indy. FFA would grow the brand a little because ScotGov would have more resouces and clout, but nowhere near as much.

Andrew McLean

O/T
link to youtube.com

a nice little sing along, catchy tune all about our state broadcaster, And this link is for any odd Journalist who may be passing link to huffingtonpost.ca

velofello

Credit to the SNP MPs, they have taken the insulting behaviour of Westminster procedures and its Unionist members with quiet dignity.We should be proud of them.

I’m confident that the shrewd political brains of the SNP, Westminster and Holyrood will set an astute course of response and action to this worthless Scotland Bill.

There is a movement to kickstart Yes2. Headlined posters and flyers will be needed for street stalls identifying the reality of the Scotland Bill, and the clear Tory strategy to “bind Scotland closer”, by impoverishing her Holyrood parliament’s ability to meet the needs of the people – income support; defence resources; renewable energy; NHS; now HMRC.

Thepnr

O/T but i don’t think you’ll want to miss this.

Independence Live in association with kiltr talking to Yanis Varoufakis about all subjects under the sun and hopefully in relation to Independence for Scotland.

Big live turnout hoped for, try and see this.

link to livestream.com

yesindyref2

Sorry, IR not IE – International relations.

Angra Mainyu

Proud Cybernat, I read your post above with interest.

You said, “As many here have oft said: Devolution must be GIVEN (by London). Independence is TAKEN by us. It is THAT simple.”

I had a discussion with this earlier with Rev. I think, like him, you need to distinguish between Devo-Max in principle and Devo-Max in reality.

Devo-Max in principle makes a lot of sense, hence the appeal. The country is divided — we could debate how much by — and not everybody here, sadly, wants independence. I think as soon as you accept that fact you are heading in the direction of saying one of two things;

1) to hell with those who want to be part of the UK

or

2) we should accommodate those who want to remain part of the UK.

You need to be pragmatic and realistic. And I assume we all want to be reasonable.

What you need to remember though is that everything is transitory until we reach the terminus of independence. Opting for Devo-Max in 2017 doesn’t mean we will have Devo-Max in 2027. By then mood might have changed, the Westminster sociopaths might have embroiled us in another illegal war.

I quote you above and the reason I did so was to ask you this; who is going to take independence and when? I don’t see anybody taking much right now.

The SNP are committed to playing by the political rules and so is everybody else it seems. That means they need Westminster approval for anything resembling a referendum on constitutional matters. I wish it were otherwise.

Thepnr

O/T But this is well worth watching and starting soon at 18:00.

Independence Live together with kiltr are interviewing Yanis Varoufakis and will be discussing all kinds of subjects hopefully some in relation to Scotland and Independence.

livestream.com/IndependenceLive/YanisVaroufakis

Hoping for a large number of viewers, will be well worth watching. Sorry for the late notification.

Jamie

@yesindyref2

So a third less but still pretty large. I guess it should not be too much trouble to propose a veto on defence or even have a referendum on a deco max that includes defence this way we can control and cut budget as and when.

The Isolator

Proud Cybernat @ 4.16

That’s exactly how I see it.The Devo Maxers are crucial to us getting over the line to Independence.

Devo Max was always a mirage,was never on any table and never will be, hence the clunking fist and federalism intervention followed by the vow pish.

The day Cameron stood on the steps of Bute House with AS having signed the Edinburgh Agreement was the day the union ended and they both knew it.

yesindyref2

Off at a Tangent
It’s funny, in my early days of posting on the Grun from Jan 12 on and later, there were a couple of annoying Unionist posters waffling on about IR, and it’s kind of an offputter so you just want to make some answer and shut down the rubbish.

But IR is perhaps the most important reason externally for Scotland going Indy. As a small 5.31 million population we can’t exactly throw our weight around militarily but the influence small nations have in the world can be vastly greater than the small population.

For instance way back Sweden with a population now of 9.6 million was known worldwide for medical stuff, and along with Switzerland population 8 million, for Red Cross, aid, refugee and such like. Norway pop 5 million and Denmark 5.6 million, are largely responsible militarily for the Barents Sea fo GIUK gap, at least for regular patrol purposes. Ireland seems to be universally popular.

I’ve no doubt Scotland would succeed in IR terms with a very different ouotlook from the current UK, and be very successful, with our own brand of contribution and even worldwide influence. And an economy growth would rise from that as well.

A lesson from that could be to watch what Unionists are going on about most, because perhaps they’re betraying the weakest part of their arguments against Indy.

McDuff

From day 1 the SNP should have stated that their only goal is independence and should never have flirted with “more powers“ or that they might accept federalism.
The SNP is the party of independence that’s why I vote for them, its independence or nothing.

Phil Robertson

“The only means available to the Scottish Government to generate cash to protect the victims of the cuts will be the power to raise income tax.”

This is, of course, nonsense.

Have you forgotten already the devolution of APD which is revenue raising? But more significant are council tax and business rates which raise roughly half the amount that income tax does. Of course, the SNP has chosen to impose a council tax freeze.

yesindyref2

@Jamie
A paper by Crawford and March “A’ the Blue Bonnets: Defending an Independent Scotland” had an annual budget of £1.6 billion worked out. Problem being with that in my opinion was that mainly army people, the airforce particularly was thrown in by them as an afterthought with subsonic Hawks being thought capable of intercepting supersonic jets. Ummm.

Makes a good read though:

link to rusi.org

Dr Jim

Look at the motivation of the Yoons, they need to rid themselves of the SNP, how do they do it?

Crush Scotland any way they can in the hope the population will do the job for them and rid them of this Cancer (SNP)
and get back to business as usual

I’m far from a financial expert but even I’ve seen this one coming for a long time and I certainly hope that unless John Swinney has an alternative secret clever scheme up his sleeve then this Bill in all it’s Tricksy forms should be completely and totally Spurned, Rejected, Returned to sender and shoved up their Lily white Arses

Let the UK Government Implement the cuts and taxes they want without blaming it on the SNP

yesindyref2

@Jamie
Another very interesting resource to look at is NORDEFCO. It’s not a military alliance, though it could be a base of a sub-alliance, but more of a defence spend co-operation.

link to nordefco.org

galamcennalath

The Isolator says:

“Devo Maxers are crucial to us getting over the line to Independence.

Devo Max was always a mirage,was never on any table and never will be”

Precisely. IMO the route to Indy is to get DevoMax advocates to realise it won’t happen and support independence as the the only way for Scotland to move forward.

It IS happening. And, WM are certainly playing their part, slowly but surely.

Presumably WM is gambling on DevoMaxers accepting what’s on offer, continuing to be afraid of Indy, or simply wanting to remain UK citizens. Well, IMO they are more likely to move to Indy.

Many WERE already onboard for Indy when the Vow and associated promises swung them back to No. These people should be very soft targets!

Fran

@ Phil Rob

So your solution is to tax everyone in Scotland to the max, crushing growth, crushing spending power, strangle the economy, while all the time WM squeeze us in the block grant.

Aye good economics there

David McDowell

Torrance was a parliamentary aide to David Mundell so we can work out what his constitutional preference is without reading any of his tripe.

yesindyref2

@Phil Robertson
You forgot aggregates tax worth £45 million. Wow. Sadly taxes such as aggregates and APD are already budgetted for, and already taken into account in Barnett.

Council tax and business rates plusses and cons, and policy. Raise the taxes and decrease other spending and employment. Drop them, take less revenue, increase spending and employment.

For Scotland to benefit from with increased income tax, NI, corporation tax, VAT … Oh, I forgot, most of these aren;t going to be devolved. Well, Phil, you just made the case for FFA instead of SFA.

Next.

I Clark

kininvie says:
12 November, 2015 at 2:25 pm
(I Clark)
Over to you SNP. You wanted power. You got it. You’ve got the support and trust of at least half the people of this country. Make the hard decisions.

It’s not up to the ‘party’ as some abstract body, to make hard decisions – those who are members are the party. It’s your decision. You have the power – and the responsibility….

I agree with you that the SNP’s members are the party. But I am not an SNP member, so it’s not my decision. I consider it’s my responsibility to do my best to help bring about independence. So, as a member of ‘the Yes movement as a whole’ I am trying to contribute to the wider debate. I did say the problems were ‘Not easy problems to solve’ and offered my own opinion. The post was partly an expression of support for the SNP.

yesindyref2

@David McDowell
What’s noticeable is that Torrance seems to hang around with Gardham and Carrell. And vice versa.

Brian Powell

I wonder if Tory No voters thought they would have immunity from their Government’s cuts?

yesindyref2

OT (well, what isn’t these dayu)
From the National (LPW): “For Carmichael, Roddy Dunlop hit back, appealing to the court that “a man is not to be convicted on an ambiguity” arguing that “to end a man’s political career on the basis of something blurted out in a TV interview” would be disproportionate.

Bad word “blurted”, for Carmichael’s case that it was poltiical not personal. If it was a politically thought out plan to lie, then it’s not very likely he would have “blurted” it out on TV. But if it’s personal it’s far more likely.

It could be Dunlop has helped to seal the case against Carmichael.

Phil Robertson

Fran says:
“So your solution is to tax everyone in Scotland to the max, crushing growth, crushing spending power, strangle the economy”
In word, no.

yesindyref2 says:
“You forgot aggregates tax worth £45 million.”
No, I didn’t – indeed I was making the point that income tax wasn’t the ONLY revenue.

“aggregates and APD are already budgetted for” but you can still change the rates.

“Council tax .. drop them … increase … employment.”
That will be why numbers of public sector employees is at an all-time LOW following the council tax freeze!

Duncan Gray

I like the idea of a referendum on the Scotland bill. I’d like to see them sell that to the Scottish electorate. I think the danger of accepting it to demonstrate its uselessness could cause years of explaining and bickering. A ref would free snp from obligation of ‘more powers’

Brian Doonthetoon

JUst picked this up from Facebook. Published on 17th September, 2014…

“Thousands of tax officials who deal with Londoners and other people in Britain face losing their jobs in Scotland if it votes for independence, experts warned today.

Just under 8,500 people are employed by Her Majesty’s Revenue and Customs in Scotland, the vast majority of them full-time staff. But if the UK splits up after a Yes vote HMRC is expected to shut its offices in Scotland and move their work south to other centres over a period of time.”

link to archive.is

Yi kidnae mak it up…

robertknight

O/T

Bet the words ” Better Together ” sound somewhat hollow in the minds of those HMRC employees in East Kilbride who voted No last year…

Ken500

High earners (companies) in the UK register as Non Doms and tax evade. They pay no tax in the UK. The Press is owned by tax evading Non Doms. The Mail, Telegraph, Express. The rest are printing companies in Westminster pockets. The business is in the UK and they make vast profits. Many are based in the City of London and pay no tax. It damages British business. An unfair, illegal trading place. The UK tax Laws are not being enforced.

If Scotland was Independent, they could licence businesses that do pay tax, and enforce the tax Laws.

Ken500

Vote NO you get nothing. People were warned.

msean

I think that the bill should be rejected,but that is probably what the UK government and their lapdogs want,a dodgy unworkable rubbish that any sane administration would have to reject.

When it is rejected,the uk government will see it as some kind of political victory that they hope will destroy the SNP and kill independence stone dead as there will be nothing else forthcoming,stretching out the process so long hoping for disillusionment to descend on independence supporters.

Maybe a referendum on whether to accept the bill or not would be the right move right enough. I don’t know if the Scottish Parliament can do that,and if you have to go to westminster to get permission,then westminsters refuses,then rejection it should be.

Badger

Surely the chickens have come home to roost,the HMRC offices closing the underneath stuff has begun,getting rid of the offices and losing so many jobs.When will we as a nation learn that we really do not come into “Westminsters”fairness.

galamcennalath

Duncan Gray says:

“I like the idea of a referendum on the Scotland bill.”

Yes. As long as it is their best offer (SB) versus independence. Because it would appear, if we stay in the Union, the SB is as far as they will go.

” I’d like to see them sell that to the Scottish electorate.”

Which is where the ref on SB falls down. They know it’s a crock of shite! They intend it to be a crock of shite! They certainly don’t intend it to be democratic.

Clootie

The Carmichael case.

Strange that very little discussion focused on the composer of the memo later leaked by Carmichael’s aid.

It takes a certain level of incompetence to hear “Good Morning” and translate this into “I hope the Tories win in the General election”

I suspect Carmichaels involvent goes much, much further than the leak. I suggest he composed, dictated and directed the full circus.

Ghillie

Really useful article Rev Stu, thank you.

This is a really tough question for people to wrangle, especialy those who read Wings, follow as much of the Westminster politicing as they can stomache and chase up what the rotten msm are putting out as well.

So what on earth is everyone else who is not so engaged making of this?

I’m not sure I know exactly how this should be handled, but I do know that I trust the SNP to have a good answer.

handclapping

O/T
Why will nobody speak for the LibDems? Won’t anyone think of the LibDems? to misquote The Simpsons.
That TNS is fascinating as an obituary for the Liberal Democratic Party in Scotland.
Page 15 retention of LibDem GE vote 49% less than half those that voted LibDem in 2015 intent voting LibDem in 2016 !
Pages 8, 17 They may retain Orkney or get a list in H&I, they have a possible list in both Lothian and Glasgow and that is it.
2 or 3 LibDems in Holyrood; look on your works Lord Jim of Tonkatown and mightily despair 😀

But its only a poll and nobody believes them but I know a girl who does
List Tories – Glasgow 4% Lothian 14%

msean

A referendum would not free the snp from a more powers obligation,it would say to westminster,”this isn’t good enough,the people have rejected it”. I’m sure the obligation for more powers lie with the the side that made the offer in the first place.

After all,it was the people they made the vow to,so it should actually be up to the people to say yes or no to the offer,now that I think of it.

This time though,nobody should be allowed to make mad offers to the electorate after free airtime without having to ANSWER questions about the offer from the public as opposed to no questions or hand picked questions from hand picked audiences. Never that again 🙂

galamcennalath

Ken500 says:

“Vote NO you get nothing. People were warned.”

They were most certainly warned. Many wanted nothing. Many believed and trusted the messengers of more powers.

They will, slowly but surely, realise they were wrong and their trust was misplaced.

Our role is to persuade them if they want more, they have to support Indy.

As for those who are content with UKOK and the Tories … they are a minority who won’t be converted. That’s their problem, in the long run.

Dr Jim

To all SNP members leaflets are on their way NOW and deliveries will be starting this weekend
If you haven’t been contacted yet by email or other, contact your branch offices for details of runs and areas

Your country needs you (big pointy finger thing)

Lochside

The Scotland Bill is a crock of shite and even the dogs in the street know it to be so.

The Unionist hegemony has been collaborating since 2007 to dismantle and damage the Scottish economy as quickly and as fast as possible. The latest wheeze aimed at undermining the IR in Scotland with a quarter of the jobs going on top of three thousand already lost ( 1/3 of all UK job losses) points the way to the economic armageddon they wish to impose on us.

The total disdain shown to our representatives in their façade of a democratic institution surely is the last straw. The naked racist and imperialist hatred of our nation and its ambitions is an ugly sight to behold but a salutary one.

We must reject this legislation as yet another attempt to manacle the neck of a (perceived) subject nation. Our MPs must at some stage walk out physically and symbolically from the de facto English Parliament and accelerate the process of separation.

As for waiting for the Soft No to come round. Well how long can we wait for hollow men and women to find a spine? Do we need to be subjugated to such a level that the only solution is emigration or abject surrender?

The SNP must reject this insult root and branch.

Robert Peffers

@JimF says: 12 November, 2015 at 4:23 pm:

“I don’t know how the numbers stack up, but how about reducing the top rate of tax to draw the millionaires in, and cutting airport duty to allow commuting. A higher value vat take may offset it.”

Nah! How about not being so bloody stupid?

That proposed Westminster Bill reminds me of a poem many have heard about but few actually have read. Be my guest : –

The Spider and the Fly

“Will you walk into my parlor?” said the spider to the fly;
“’Tis the prettiest little parlor that ever you did spy.
The way into my parlor is up a winding stair,
And I have many pretty things to show when you are there.”
“O no, no,” said the little fly, “to ask me is in vain,
For who goes up your winding stair can ne’er come down again.”

“I’m sure you must be weary, dear, with soaring up so high;
Will you rest upon my little bed?” said the spider to the fly.
“There are pretty curtains drawn around, the sheets are fine and thin,
And if you like to rest awhile, I’ll snugly tuck you in.”
“O no, no,” said the little fly, “for I’ve often heard it said,
They never, never wake again, who sleep upon your bed.”

Said the cunning spider to the fly, “Dear friend, what shall I do,
To prove the warm affection I’ve always felt for you?
I have within my pantry good store of all that’s nice;
I’m sure you’re very welcome; will you please to take a slice?”
“O no, no,” said the little fly, “kind sir, that cannot be;
I’ve heard what’s in your pantry, and I do not wish to see.”

“Sweet creature!” said the spider, “You’re witty and you’re wise!
How handsome are your gauzy wings, how brilliant are your eyes!
I have a little looking-glass upon my parlor shelf,
If you’ll step in one moment, dear, you shall behold yourself.”
“I thank you, gentle sir,” she said, “for what you’re pleased to say,
And bidding you good-morning now, I’ll call another day.”

The spider turned him round about, and went into his den,
For well he knew the silly fly would soon be back again:
So he wove a subtle web, in a little corner sly,
And set his table ready to dine upon the fly.
Then he came out to his door again, and merrily did sing
“Come hither, hither, pretty fly, with the pearl and silver wing:
Your robes are green and purple; there’s a crest upon your head;
Your eyes are like the diamond bright, but mine are dull as lead.”

Alas, alas! how very soon this silly little fly,
Hearing his wily flattering words, came slowly flitting by.
With buzzing wings she hung aloft, then near and nearer drew
Thinking only of her brilliant eyes, and green and purple hue;
Thinking only of her crested head — poor foolish thing! At last,
Up jumped the cunning spider, and fiercely held her fast.
He dragged her up his winding stair, into his dismal den,
Within his little parlour; but she ne’er came out again!

And now, dear little children, who may this story read,
To idle, silly, flattering words, I pray you ne’er give heed;
Unto an evil counsellor close heart, and ear, and eye,
And take a lesson from this tale of the Spider and the Fly.

by Mary Howitt (1799-1888).

Do I need spell out who is the spider and who is the fly?

R-type Grunt

Scotland Free or a Desert!

Nana

@Thepnr

Ta much for the link to Yanis which is excellent.

He says at the end “the media, the main battlefield for democracy” how true!

Sheryl Hepworth

What ever happened to the ”NO DETRIMENT” bit?? The Scotland Bill, as it stands is definitely detrimental to Scotland!!!