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Wings Over Scotland

The Too Wee Club #3

Posted on July 31, 2017 by

A series inspired by a Unionist blog insisting that “On a practical level, I do not believe for one moment that Scotland could thrive alone”and which led to our thinking about some of the world’s other independent nations.


Above is a picture of the Grand Duchy of Luxembourg in Central Europe. Below is what it would look like in terms of size if it was right next to Orkney.

Luxembourg isn’t just famous for its top-quality football teams. It’s a sovereign state which contains one of the three official capitals of the EU, as well as the seat of the European Court of Justice. But how does it compare to Scotland?

(All stats from link above unless linked separately.)

AREA: 999 square miles
(Scotland: 30,090 square miles)

(Scotland: 5.4 million)

LARGEST CITY: Luxembourg City, pop. 107,247
(Scotland: Glasgow, pop. 603,000)

(Scotland: $245bn)

GDP PER CAPITA: $104,359
(Scotland: $45,904)

GDP PER CAPITA (PPP measure): $100,991
(UK: $42,514)

GINI INEQUALITY RATING /100 (higher = more inequality): 28.5
(UK: 32.4)

(UK: 4.5%)

(UK: 18th)

(UK: 80.7, Scotland 79.1)

UNIVERSITY EDUCATION: around 500 Euros a year
(Scotland: free. UK: £9,000 per annum)

INCOME TAX RATES (standard/higher/max): sliding scale from 0% to 49%
(Scotland: 20%/40%/45%)

(UK: 0.92)

(Scotland: oil, whisky, renewables, fresh water, financial services, tourism)

Luxembourg has been a fully independent state for 127 years, and a member of NATO since its inception in 1949. The population is highly multilingual, with almost everyone speaking at least FOUR languages, and the country has an openly gay Prime Minister.

Luxembourg maintains free public education and high-quality state-funded healthcare at the point of delivery. It has a tiny army just 800 strong and (as a landlocked country) no navy. It is protected by NATO membership and its geographical location.

Unionists believe these achievements to be completely beyond the ability of the people of Scotland. Readers can make their own judgements.


More members of the Too Wee Club coming soon. Previous entries below:

1. Malta

2. Iceland

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  1. 31 07 17 12:56

    The Too Wee Club #3 | speymouth

206 to “The Too Wee Club #3”

  1. Ghillie

    Ooooh ooooh Rev!

    Did you see the lovely travel log Az did for Luxembourg?

    Wee aside.(I’ve learned how to spell Luxembourg! – Mad. But not so mad not to learn how to spell Luxembourg 🙂 Recognise the reference? )

    Well well. The plot thickens.


    Demonstrably NOT TOO WEE.


    ( To quote a fine stetson wearing lad )

    Scotland is awesome.

    As are many many smaller Nations of this lovely planet =)

    What a great gang to belong to 🙂

  2. Tinto Chiel

    “Famous for its top-quality football teams.”

    You bad man, Rev.


  3. Proud Cybernat

    Nice work, Rev.

    Just wait until you start analysing comparable countries to Scotland–you know, like Norway.

  4. Betty Boop

    Just look at that GDP figure… Seems wee countries can find their niche markets, but, not and independent Scotland, of course.

    Ta for this series, Stu. Brilliant.

  5. Ghillie

    So how come have the people of Scotland so NOT believed in themselves for so very very long ?

    If I was looking at this from the angle of emotional abuse all the sirens would be blaring.

  6. Muscleguy

    I notice someone on your twitter feed guessed New Zealand. In popn terms it is comparable, 4million vs 5.4million but NZ’s landmass is slightly bigger than the entire British Isles, including Ireland. Though fully 1/3 is National Park, unlike here in the UK farming and extractive industries are not allowed in National Parks in NZ so that reduces the land area available for GDP (though they do attract the Tourist dollar).

    In terms of future members we have Andorra and Liechtenstein to go as well as Cyprus and of course Ireland itself.

    But I’m afraid NZ is too big to fit into the Too Wee Club. If you think Scotland has a big marine EEZ, it pales into insignificance compared to NZ’s: offshore (well offshore) islands to the NE, East and South/SE inflate it far more than Orkney and Shetland.

  7. Capella

    Does rather destroy the “too wee” argument. With a population smaller than Glasgow they somehow manage to generate far higher GDP per capita AND live longer.
    Looking forward to the next exhibit.

  8. Steven Stewart

    I actually spat my tea out laughing at the “Famous for its top-quality football teams.” line!!


  9. skintybroko

    Enjoying this series – how about comparing us with Singapore – comparable population but significantly more prosperous.

  10. turnbulldrier

    “famous for its top-quality football teams.”

    Coffee meet keyboard moment there.. Thanks.

  11. Cactus


    Luxembourg is a landlocked country, which is part of ‘Benelux’.
    (Belgium, Netherlands & Luxembourg.)

    They are part of a geographical landmass and also have independence.

    SO there we have it preiScotland.. ye don’t have to be an island exclusively to be independent. I wonder if things would be different if we had a south coast?

    Malta can do it
    Iceland can do it
    Luxembourg can do it

    Scotland can do it.

  12. Macart

    Keep them coming. 🙂

  13. Proud Cybernat

    Can’t wait for the “Too Poor” (showcasing Scotland’s massive resources and potential) and finally the “Too Stupid” series (featuring Scotland’s historical and modern contributions to industry, medicine, science & discovery). That last one might take a while.


    Jack and Victor Go Large

  14. David MacGille-Mhuire

    Shout outs for Lichtenstein; that wee one whose name I forget up in the Spanish Alps, I think; Monaco, the Vatican State (to wind up the Ludge Brigade), and the de facto, Venetian republic that is the city state beloved to the Brits aka the City of London?

    Oops, maybe not the latter as it is simply a parasite entity battening onto Scotland’s honest resources plus the world in general’s gangsta money.

    Keep ’em comin’, Rev.

  15. Peter McCulloch

    I wonder how many of those people in Scotland who spout
    this tripe about us being too poor and too wee to be independent.

    Realise just how many small countries there are in the world with populations the same size or lower than Scotland, with less resources available to them and yet they still have a better standard of living than we do.

    Of course this is an argument the unionists try to avoid, because they wouldn’t be able to explain why, as they constantly claim, a resources rich Scotland can’t economically afford independence and has been reduced to an economic basket case under Westminster governance.

    That is effectively their case against independence
    So they don’t have any real choice, but to peddle their fantasy view of the world to the people of Scotland, about how the UK is the sixth largest economy in the World and how well Scotland does as part of the union.

  16. heedtracker

    Shocking to actually read how some countries get it all so right. Thanks to our chums in the south, even moving to them is now all over, UKOK style.

    No 10 says free movement ends when UK leaves EU
    33 minutes ago
    From the section UK Politics

  17. Proud Cybernat

    To many British Nationalists it’s not about Scotland’s size, how rich we might be or how clever we are.

    It’s just that the UJ has pretty colours and we fought together in two world wars don’t you know. They seem to think that the UJ and British Nationalist nostalgia would put food on the table.

    It never did and it certainly won’t post-Brexit.

  18. Helpmaboab

    Mother nature hasn’t been been very generous to Luxembourg.

    Unlike Scotland, it has no mineral wealth, no fishing grounds, no hydroelectricity and ittle natural beauty to attract the world’s travellers.

    What the Luxembourgois DO have is this: A sovereign government willing to work for the country’s benefit and full membership of the largest free trade area on Earth.

    Scotland hasn’t had the former for three centuries now. It soon won’t have the latter, either…

  19. Christopher Whyte

    My family was there only two weeks ago (we live in the Netherlands, it’s a drive of a couple of hours).

    The question my wife asked me was how the country functions, given that it’s so small.

    This article is a laugh, timing wise. She’ll be chuffed to read it, I expect.

  20. Effijy

    This is too embarrassing for the Too Wee Brigade!

    I’m very lucky that I’ve travelled much of the globe,
    And deviated to take in small countries.

    The standard of living in Leitchestein, Andora,
    San Marino, Monaco, Ireland, Finland, Denmak
    All look to me to be in better shape than the
    United Korruption?

    I look forward to some move detail on this from
    The Rev himself!

  21. ronnie anderson


    Angela Haggerty getting her comeuppancein spades , will she like Dugdale keep digging w’ll wait & see .

  22. ronnie anderson


    Angela Haggerty getting her comeuppance in spades , will she like Dugdale keep digging w’ll wait & see .

  23. Erling

    What about comparing Scotland with countries about the same size (population)? Norway, Denmark, Finland, Ireland, New Zealand?

  24. wee_monsieur

    Croatia is worth a mention, if only for the fact they created their *own currency* after a bruising 4 year war and gaining independence from the former Republic of Yugoslavia. And guess what – the sky hasn’t fallen in on them!

  25. HandandShrimp

    I think it is well known fact that some of the most prosperous, equitable, decent countries in the world are actually small, human sized constructs.

    In my experience a lot of the “too wee” brigade are not a step too far from the military fetishists that so often frequent Yoonish sites. The visibly fap themselves silly over weaponry and sabre rattling. These are not people one would want near the levers of power.

  26. Petra

    I reckon that Liechtenstein has done amazingly well for itself. They were practically totally skint by the late 60’s, used their noggin and are now one of the richest countries in the world. It’s also home to the Royal Stuart bloodline.

    ‘Double landlocked, has to import 85% of it’s energy, with an area of 62 square miles, the fourth-smallest country in Europe and with an estimated population of 37,000…

    Economically, Liechtenstein has one of the highest gross domestic products per person in the world when adjusted for purchasing power parity, and the highest when not adjusted by purchasing power parity. The unemployment rate is one of the lowest in the world at 1.5%. Liechtenstein has been known in the past as a billionaire tax haven; however, it is no longer on any blacklists of uncooperative tax haven countries….’

    Liechtenstein is a member of the UN, European Free Trade Association, the Council of Europe, and the European Space Agency in June 27, 2017 and while not being a member of the European Union, the country participates in both the Schengen Area and European Economic Area. It also has a customs union and a monetary union with Switzerland….

    Liechtenstein was in dire financial straits following the end of the war in Europe. The Liechtenstein dynasty often resorted to selling family artistic treasures, including the portrait “Ginevra de’ Benci” by Leonardo da Vinci, which was purchased by the National Gallery of Art of the United States in 1967 for $5 million ($36 million in 2016 dollars), then a record price for a painting. However, by the late 1970s, it used its low corporate tax rates to draw many companies to the country, becoming one of the wealthiest countries in the world….’

    Check out taxation and education.


    The National ran a two page spread every day for a week in April on around six small countries … ‘Wha’s Like Us? Our series on small and successful European countries – and how Scotland could be like them.’

    Worth reading if you can get access to them.

  27. Fred

    Guys, ah believe there are two Luxembourgs, a Belgian province & its rich neighbour!

  28. John Jones

    The problem with Scotland is quite simple, compare it to an abusive marriage, if you’re told often enough you’re ugly, stupid and useless, you come to believe it.
    Time for the divorce!

  29. LesRoches

    I’m fed up with the Too wee phrase, can we update this to Maybe wee and not so poor if we were less stupid….

  30. Espanol Escoces

    Fantastic series Rev. Hope you don’t forget the admirable Cape Verde islands in your “too wee” round-up.

  31. yesindyref2

    Yay, I got it right – Luxembourg!

  32. Petra

    @ Effijy says at 1:22 pm …… ”This is too embarrassing for the Too Wee Brigade! I’m very lucky that I’ve travelled much of the globe, And deviated to take in small countries. The standard of living in Leitchestein, Andora, San Marino, Monaco, Ireland, Finland, Denmark. All look to me to be in better shape than the United Korruption? I look forward to some move detail on this from The Rev himself!”

    I’ve travelled a great deal too Effijy and like you headed off of the beaten track. The one thing that always strikes me is the state of our roads in comparison to many other countries in the so-called civilised world. If it wasn’t for our scenery we’d look like a third world country (well …. a wee exaggeration!).

    I was in Romania not so long ago. You know the country that so many seem to be so keen to run down. The roads or rather boulevardes in Bucharest put our country to shame. Not one pothole or piece of litter in sight.

    They’ve still got a LONG way to go due to being repressed for decades under the Communist regime however they are getting there. They have oil, are a net exporter of electrical energy, have fantastic scenery and a coastline / beaches on the Black Sea that they are beginning to develop. They also now rank number one in Europe in relation to internet speed. More than anything everyone I spoke to was friendly, helpful and more than anything came across as being highly intelligent.

    ‘Exports have increased substantially in the past few years, with a 13% annual rise in exports in 2010. Romania’s main exports are cars, software, clothing and textiles, industrial machinery, electrical and electronic equipment, metallurgic products, raw materials, military equipment, pharmaceuticals, fine chemicals, and agricultural products (fruits, vegetables, and flowers).’

    It’s not of course a country that we’d like to compare ourselves to at this moment in time, however ‘according to the World Bank, Romania is an upper-middle income country economy.’ I wonder therefore how they would categorize Scotland?

    (According to Eurostat, Romania’s GDP per capita (PPS) was at 59% of the EU average in 2016, an increase from 41% in 2007 (the year of Romania’s accession to the EU), making Romania one of the fastest growing economies in the EU.)

  33. Jimbo

    Luxembourg is a member of NATO, yet George Robertson, Labour’s lord of cringe and ex General Secretary of NATO tried to tell us that NATO would not want Scotland as a member.

    I’m still beelin’ at the pish we were served up and asked to swallow during Indyref14.

  34. manandboy

    Compared with most other countries, there’s really only one thing wrong with Scotland – it has a Colonial Master.

  35. Robert Louis

    Possible unionist replies.

    1. Yeah, but I bet they don’t get Eastenders.

    2. All very nice, but what will they do when aliens North Korea invades.

    3. Yes, but they haven’t got a queen, have they.

    4. Besides Scotland is too wee anyway, the pictures above are obviously fakes, Luxembourg is huge in reality. Just check the BBC weather maps and you’ll see.

    5 Scotland isn’t a ‘proper’ country.

    And so on.

  36. Petra

    @ John Jones says at 2:05 pm …. ”The problem with Scotland is quite simple, compare it to an abusive marriage, if you’re told often enough you’re ugly, stupid and useless, you come to believe it. Time for the divorce!”

    That’s it in a nutshell John. Westminster uses the same strategies that can be identified by professionals analyzing an abusive relationship.

    ‘6 tactics used to control women ….. Emotionally abusive relationships can destroy your self-esteem, lead to depression, and give you a sense of helplessness. Recognising that your situation is abusive is the first step to being free.’

    Dominance– Abusive individuals need to feel in charge of the relationship. They will make decisions for you and the family, tell you what to do, and expect you to obey without question. Your abuser may treat you like a servant, child, or even as his or her possession.

    Humiliation– An abuser will do everything he or she can to make you feel bad about yourself. After all, if you believe you are worthless and that no one else will want you, you are less likely to escape. Insults, name-calling, shaming, and public belittlement are all artillery of abuse.

    Isolation– In order to increase your dependence on him / her, an abusive partner will cut you off from the outside world by keeping you from seeing friends and family, or even prevent you from going to work.

    Threats– Abusers commonly use threats to keep their partners from leaving. Your abuser may threaten to hurt or kill you, your children, or other family members, and may threaten to report you to child services.

    Intimidation– Your abuser may use a variety of intimidation tactics intended to scare you into obedience. Such tactics include making threatening gestures, smashing things in front of you, destroying property, or putting weaponry on display.

    Denial and blame–Your abusive partner may minimise the abuse or deny that it occurred. He or she will commonly shift the blame onto you.

  37. Dr Jim

    Statement just in from Orange Colonel Ruth Davidson:

    But but but they cannae dae war and they huvnie goat a big Trident bomb and eh eh they couldnae defend thursels against Martians

    But mostly they’re foreign and that makes them inferior

    Wee arra peepel (she didn’t say that last part but Murdo Fraser was overheard from the Lavvie shouting)

  38. Dan Huil

    Per Noctum Lux

  39. yesindyref2

    @ronnie anderson
    A wee tear in the e’e there. But it had to be done for sure. It’s up to commonspace now to get its act together, but if it does I think we must be prepared to forgive and forget. Bl’y stupid of them all the same.

    Re Luxembourg. Been there when working in Germany, the gilder was interchangeable between the Benelux countries, an early example of a succesful currency union I guess, and with both Holland and Belgium having way greater populations and hence total GDP, that worked out fine for them. So much for warnings at the time of the 1st Indy Ref about Scotland and the rUK with a currency union. Where there’s a will and sense, there’s a way. But the UK had Osborne and the Tories.

    Went back with Yanks and an English guy I was working with, and another time I think, so must have liked it fine! I daresay we had a drink or three.

  40. Serinde

    A very interesting series.

    Just in the interests of accuracy, however, your statistical list will need updating. From this autumn, undergraduate tuition fees in rUK will go up from £9,000 to £9,250. I also think stating that university education is “free” gives the wrong impression. It is free in the same way that NHS care is free — at the point of delivery. Tuition fees of £1,820 per annum are paid for through taxes, of course, and I’m very happy to pay in this way for these obvious social benefits.

    EU citizens attending Scottish universities have their tuition fees paid by the Scottish government, too, although they don’t have to be domiciled (or have paid tax) in Scotland to receive it. Naturally, overseas (non-EU) students pay (substantially) more.

  41. Street Andrew

    Speaking of Queens…..

    Does an independent Scotland still have to have to support the spawn of the Saxe Coburgs are can we bundle them in with the deal and leave them to Westminster?

    I have always thought battenburg cake overrated and brown windsor soup was never anything to write home about.

    If we have to have a monarch to smooth the constitutional passage perhaps we could borrow Harry. Not a lot of Windsor in that one.

    Is that OT?

    Love the ‘too wee’ series, Rev. Your patience and persistence in assembling all the detail is admirable.

  42. Cactus

    Hey Petra x ~ following on from ur 5:51pm above, howsabout…


    Also this from the Cambridge Dictionary:


    “If someone becomes institutionalised, they gradually become less able to think and act independently, because of having lived for a long time under the rules of an institution:”

    Make that seven.

    “People who have no hopes are easy to control.. and whoever has the control has the power.”

    Think BIG Scotland… “there are no boundaries..” 🙂

  43. Cactus

    Petra @ 2:51pm (plus 3 hours for daylight savings)

    Roll on August!

  44. Cactus

    Soz for that second link, getting my esses & zeds mixed up.

    Back to main article.

  45. yesindyref2

    Somewhere mid-August, the last year’s GERS should be available.

    These might be interesting, because they are likely to be the first year that they are done according to the new ESA2010 standard, rather than the old ESA95 also known as 1995 ESA. The UK, like some other EU states, had a derogation until recently to allow full implementation.

    Something some economist – Hughes Hallet now of the SG Fiscal Commission complained about, to abuse in the Times and from the Unionists, but he was right and they were wrong. No surprise there then.

    I tried to work out the significance, and one thing is about debt where the UK’s pensions liability should be included now. The Treasury has already released papers according to the new standard, and in theory all their figures should now comply.

    It could be good for us – or it could be good for THEM. Personally I think it’s more likely to be good for us, more accurate figures should be to our advantage.

    Potentially though this could reduce our “deficit” compared to the UK – perhaps even substantially.

  46. yesindyref2

    A little more about that (ESA), and a couple of links here:

  47. Robert Graham

    These series are perfect for educating not only people who follow Wings , but for those folk who simply cant believe we could ever govern a viable country ,

    Amongst all the countries and people on the planet ,we are they only ones who would make an arse of it , we simply could not cope with the responsibility ,

    Surely it must be fear , fear of the unknown and fear of change , a whole nation having been told they as a nation are useless for all their miserable lives , they must truly believe they are,

    Christ what a way to live , with no hope , unbelievable .

  48. geeo

    Can San Marino be included in this series, just so we can mention the second fastest goal in world cup history they scored v England…(8.3 seconds) !!

    A lead they held for a mighty 20 minutes.

    If San Marino can score v England and stay ahead for 20 minutes, Scotland can become independent and stay ahead of England forever.

  49. Alex Clark

    Little known fact but steel manufacturing is the second most important contributor to Luxembourg’s economy after finance.

    Steel accounts for 29% of all exports (excluding services), 1.8% of GDP, 22% of industrial employment, and 3.9% of the work force.

    I visited one of the mills in Luxembourg many years ago, steel for a large Offshore project was to be bought from there for what at that time was the largest Offshore project happening in the North Sea.

    Why was it being bought from Luxembourg? Well most UK steel mills had closed and their steel was among the best in the world. Loved the place and was more than impressed with what they were producing.

    Scotland as an Independent country can also revive steel making and shipbuilding once Independent. It brings employment and well paying jobs, 22% of industrial employment in their country. If Luxembourg can afford to pay the wages required and still sell their product on the world market, why can’t Scotland?

    Where there’s a will there’s a way, we can do. Independence first.

  50. mike cassidy

    And here’s something a wee country could do.

    Or at least make compulsory for anybody intending to be a politician.

    That way they might get the difference between a joke and a phobic remark.

    yesindyref2 3.55

    I wonder what Richard Murphy’s take on it would be.

  51. call me dave

    Scottish Labour health spokesman Anas Sarwar said:

    “This is a deeply worrying revelation”.

    Shona Robison, the cabinet secretary for health, defended the government’s record. 🙂

    That’s all you need to know folks, another day at the office!

  52. yesindyref2

    @mike cassidy
    Indeed. I hope he has a good look when they come out, and pens an article about it.

    Re steel.

    It’s such a basic manufactured commodity, the basis for so much manufacturing both heavy and light, it’s sheer madness for any country not to be producing at least enough for its regular economically viable needs, even if it has to imprt it for some extraordinary major project. Thanks Thatcher for killing it off in Scotland (at the time), much appreciated.

    Ironically Thatcher gave in to the EU over that one. Germany certainly didn’t. The likes of Karlsruhe not far from where I was working, hardly noticed the difference for the EU “quota” system. Thatcher sacrificed steel for – something else, perhaps a rebate and the services sector, can’t remember.

  53. Ken500

    Steel comes from Poland. Half the cost. North Sea projects.

  54. Ken500

    There is steel produced in Scotland. Specialised.

  55. mike cassidy

    Ah. Luxembourg.

    Another dodgy taxhaven.

    Who went after the whistleblowers.


    Guys, guys, guys listen up. The too wee or too stupid is of course nonsense…Obviously Scotland can fend for it’s self and them some. But, and hopefully this will upset the yoons, Maybe there is a large section of the populace is too frightened. Feart. No gote the bottle or prefer the misery.

  57. Richard MacKinnon

    Cactus, 31 July, 2017 at 12:43 pm

    You say,

    ‘Malta can do it
    Iceland can do it
    Luxembourg can do it

    Scotland can do it’.

    Few would disagree. Surely the point that is ignored by all on this thread is that ‘Scotland does not want to do it’.

  58. Proud Cybernat

    Nice one, Jackie Bird…

    Time to stop believing them…

  59. yesindyref2

    @ Richard MacKinnon: “Few would disagree. Surely the point that is ignored by all on this thread is that ‘Scotland does not want to do it.

    What you actually mean is that Scotland didn’t want to do it IN 2014.

    Now, in 2017, or in 2019 with Brexit looming large on the disaster horizon, nobody knows what Scotland wants, without Indy Ref 2.

    Which, presumably as a democrat, you would naturally support.

  60. Joemcg

    Yes, I agree with other posters. This is definitely the yoons weakest argument and Achilles heel. Perusing arguments over the years on social media etc.they cannot counter it and never have been able to. We should find a way to push this for all its worth at all times. They are completely snookered with this one.

  61. ian murray

    This series will become even more painful for Yessers to read the deeper we get but of course we will read them all because punishing ourselves is kinda what we do.
    I believe that Unionists truly believe that we could not be a successful independent country and they are 100% correct…. if we ran an Independent Scotland the same way Westminster runs the UK
    How can there be a better way to run a country than how things currently are? For example look how well we are doing with Brexit, Yes OK we did have to borrow some crayons from the EU guys on the first day of school but we came back strong, apart from being sent home for a week to do our homework on all of the subject matter, don’t worry Rule Britannia et al

  62. Proud Cybernat

    The bloody-minded…

  63. Cactus

    Off topic ~

    Hmm, other than Scotland, may I pose this question again for perspective:

    People of England, Wales and Northern Ireland.

    The year is now, the year is 2017.

    1) Name 5 things that you LOVE about your England/Wales/NI?
    2) Name 5 things that you LOVE about the United Kingdom?

    Question one.. I would hope for loads of auto immediate answers.
    Question two.. Nothing stands out.

    Answers not required.

    Scotland is a big passionate country.

  64. Shinty

    Lucky Luxembourg, land locked and nae oil!

    Very much enjoying this series, thank you.

  65. colin Alexander


    I have been threatened on your website and politely request you take appropriate action.

    Thank you

    Colin Alexander.

    “geeo says:
    31 July, 2017 at 3:47 pm
    I will swap details with Colin.

    In person.

    At night.

    No witnesses.

    Bet he says no.”

  66. sassenach

    Surely this series of eye-opening stats must be able to form the basis of a book, for distributing far and wide. I seem to remember this kind of thing has been done before!

    Now, if only someone could think of a suitable name for such a publication………….

  67. Cactus

    Hey sassenach ~

    Ye mean something like…

    “The Wee Indy Book” 😉

  68. Dan Huil

    @yesindyref2 5:06pm

    Nicely put.

  69. galamcennalath

    Richard MacKinnon says:

    Surely the point that is ignored by all on this thread is that ‘Scotland does not want to do it’.

    That, is something no one can say because it has never been tested. More accurately, Unionists wouldn’t and won’t allow Scotland’s views and wishes to be tested meaningfully.

    If the 2014 referendum had been allowed to run its democratic course as a choice between Indy and the status quo, we would know the answer.

    Instead it was turned into a choice between Indy and DevoSuperFederalMax. Of course everyone knew the generous offer of DevoSuperFederalMax would win. Some of us knew it was a fake offer because it has come at the end of of months of lies and deceit. Many Scots, however, did clearly believe this represented considerable powers for Holyrood just short of Indy and went for it.

    If DevoSuperFederalMax had been delivered, it would have been fair dos and the Union saved.

    That didn’t happen. It was never really a serious offer.

    So, IndyRef1 resolved nothing. It only proved DevoSuperFederalMax was the preferred option in 2014, and that is utterly meaningless.

    Incidentally, if IndyRef1 had been a choice between Indy and mad bad Tory Brexit chaos, does anyone doubt the result would have been quite different?

  70. Alex Clark

    Small countries can do very well in manufacturing if they so choose and the Luxembourg steel industry is a prime example when compared to the UK. An Independent Scotland making it’s own choices would have seen steel making survive and proper just as it did in Luxembourg.

    Very interesting history in these snippets from Wiki.

    In 1974 the world steel market collapsed due to over-production. The reasons for this were the oil crisis of 1973, which increased energy prices and caused demand to decrease; competition from Asia, which was growing bigger and bigger; and European steel companies owned by the state, which to some extent brought their products to market at dumping prices.

    In one year, from 1974 to 1975, sales from Luxembourg fell from 6,4 million tons to 4,6 million tons. It soon became clear that this was not a short-term incident, but a structural crisis.

    In 1975 a law was enacted that prevented lay-offs for economic reasons. On 18 August 1975 a Tripartite (that is, involving employers’, trade unions’ and government representatives) economic committee was created.

    Its goal was to manage the disappearance of thousands of jobs in steel-working as well as possible. In 1977, a Division Anti-Crise, or DAC, was created, where those who had lost their jobs in steel-working could do community work (2,700 people in 1977). Obligatory early retirement at 57 years was introduced for ARBED employees; and there were cash subsidies for those who left voluntarily…

    ARBED had received relatively little government money at this point, compared to its competitors: from 1976 to 1982 it invested 25,8 billion francs, of which only 10% were from the state. The DAC cost 5,1 billion in the same period, of which the state covered 1,6 billion. In other areas, where people were simply made redundant, these costs did not exist.

    From 1975 to 1979, a ton of steel was supported with 13 francs in Luxembourg, in France with 700-900 francs, in the UK with 1,500 francs and in Belgium with 1,800 francs.

    Scotland unshackled from Westminster policies and free to make it’s own decisions would soon leave them well behind, that is Westminster’s biggest fear. Scotland exposing that the Emperor has no clothes and them facing such embarrassment.

  71. mike cassidy


    Rapeclause Ruth as May’s successor.

    You know you want to comment.

  72. Cactus

    Ha, this series is now reminding me of “Top Trumps”

    Remember, it’s a card game where you played your highest card statistic to beat the other player(s)

    Planes, trains & automobiles (btw the fastest train was from Japan)

    SO howsabout “Political Top Trumps” then…

    a) My country’s population is more than yours (ur trumped)
    b) My country’s murder rate is less than yours (ur trumped)
    c) My country’s resources are more than yours (ur trumped)
    d) My country’s unemployment rate is less than yours (ur trumped)

    Scotland vs the world.


  73. sassenach


    I see our precious ‘concern troll’ (with the variable name!! You’d think the group posters would at least make an effort at consistency?) is now complaining about “threats”, in yet another attempt to divert the thread I presume.

    So sad, so predictable. For gawd’s sake can someone please pat his wee heid and tell him it’s alright – the bogey man isn’t coming.

  74. Col

    I rarely watch reporting Scotland on the BBC but whenever I’m unlucky enough to be sitting there and it’s on I can’t help but feel they are eager to put a slant on any story and I also question whether it’s even news at all. SNHS being attacked again tonight and even the suggestion that tolls could return to the Skye bridge. What a load of absolute crap. Never again if I can help it.

  75. Rock

    Luxemburg is viable as a haven for money launderers and tax evaders.

    Truth Always.

  76. starlaw

    When several groups are campaigning towards one goal. They must stand together, any differences of opinion must never ever be shown to the opposition.
    Words of wisdom I received from my Union Convenor many years ago.

    Others would do well to behave in this manner, if you have something to say about your own side, do it behind closed doors, you wont catch Dugdale bad mouthing Davidson or Rennie.

  77. KevDundee

    Great little series.

    Can you add in beside the largest city population a comparison to a place in Scotland of same/similar population?
    From the next one I mean.

  78. galamcennalath

    starlaw says:

    you wont catch Dugdale bad mouthing Davidson or Rennie

    That is an astonishing claim, but you know what? I reckon it is pretty close to the truth.

    The Unionists in Scotland have banded together and focused on their common enemy and objective. We mock them so often, but they do know how to set party differences aside and sing from the same song sheet.

  79. Stoker

    colin Alexander says:31 July, 2017 at 6:19 pm TO Rev. STU CAMPBELL.

    “I have been threatened on your website and politely request you take appropriate action.Thank you Colin Alexander.”

    “geeo says:31 July, 2017 at 3:47 pm I will swap details with Colin.In person.At night.No witnesses.Bet he says no.”

    I don’t normally waste the steam off my shite on your wee spats Colin but this latest one has me shaking my head off in utter disbelief. FFS! REALLY? A threat?

    Do you actually live in the real world? That comment made by 4-letters called “geeo” on a screen in front of you is actually giving you cause for concern?

    I suppose it takes all sorts to make a world but thank feck you’re not used to my reality, you would have drapped deed the second you opened your eyes.

    Sorry, Colin, but i’ve seen you put up with more than that on here and now you suddenly start running around with pretty pink ribbons in your hair.

    If i’m missing something and you’re having a laugh i apologise.

  80. galamcennalath

    OK, being a small country isn’t going to stop it being a success.

    Here’s another aspect to consider. 18 of the 28 EU members only became independent in the last 200 years, some very recently!

    [ I posted this list last year and thought it worth copying and putting it up again. ]

    ?* Austria, Restoration of sovereignty 1955
    * Belgium, Indy from the United Netherlands 1831
    * Bulgaria, Indy from the Ottoman Empire 1908
    * Croatia, Indy from SFR Yugoslavia in 1991
    * Cyprus, Indy from the United Kingdom 1960
    * Czech Republic, Czechoslovakia, Indy from Austria-Hungary 1918
    * Estonia, Indy from the Russia 1918, USSR 1991
    * Finland, Indy from the Russia 1917
    * Greece, Indy from Ottoman Empire 1821
    * Ireland, Indy from United Kingdom 1922
    * Latvia, Indy from the Russia 1918, USSR 1990
    * Lithuania, Indy from the Russia 1918, USSR 1991
    * Luxembourg, Indy from Prussia 1839
    * Malta, Indy from United Kingdom 1964
    * Poland, Indy 1918 after 123 years partitioned.
    * Romania, Indy from Ottoman Empire 1877
    * Slovakia, Czechoslovakia, Indy from Austria-Hungary 1918
    * Slovenia, Indy from SFR Yugoslavia in 1991?

    And the ancient nation and kingdom of Scotland can’t hack it with the new kids on the block? Of course we can!

  81. Alex Clark

    Luxembourg a country with a population less than that of Glasgow was producing 6.4 million tons of steel in 1974. To me that’s amazing.

    That’s plenty enough to build 1000 decent size ships/year. Scotland too wee? Aye Right!

  82. Alex Clark

    It’s all about the political will and regarding manufacturing and investment. Where Scotland is concerned when it comes down to it the Tories have none. Neither do Labour for that matter.

    They have none either for most parts of the UK it’s all about London what with Crossrail, HS2 ect ect. Why many just accept that as well “that’s how the cookie crumbles” beats me.

    By the way it’s all our money they are spending, spending it where they like though i.e. cut inheritance tax.

    Where is Scotland?

  83. ronnie anderson

    Right hawns up who’s gon an upset oor resident wee tolly .

  84. colin Alexander


    I take the name calling and point out it’s childish and counter-productive.

    In this case I reported it to protect Stu’s website and the reputation of other Wingers.

    As I don’t want visitors to the site thinking menacing posts are acceptable to Stu or other Wingers.

    Robust responses and harsh criticisms of my comments are fine. That’s part of debate. If I get something wrong, I welcome being corrected, especially if the response puts independence in a positive light.

  85. Bob Mack

    San Marino ?.

  86. Gfaetheblock

    Not really getting the point of this series of articles. There are small, successful nations, it this really does not tell us much about what choices and decisions an indepednat scotland would have to make? Are we all saying we want Scotland to be a tax haven? Interesting that both Luxembourg and Iceland have suffered massively on the global financial crash as they were over dependant on one industry, one of the issues when you have an unbalanced economy.

  87. Robert Peffers

    @Richard MacKinnon says: 31 July, 2017 at 4:49 pm:

    ” … Few would disagree. Surely the point that is ignored by all on this thread is that ‘Scotland does not want to do.”

    Well, No, Richard, you certainly got that wrong.
    First of all, quite a few have indeed already disagreed with it.
    Second of all where are your current figures to show that, “Scotland still does not want to do it”?

    Are you perhaps attempting to claim, as so many yoonyoonists in high places have been doing for almost three years now, that as Scotland voted in a referendum on 18 September 2014 not to leave a United Kingdom where those yoonyoonists were promising Scotland many things, “like shoes–and ships–and sealing-wax– and cabbages–and kings–“.

    But an awful lot of water has flowed under all the Forth’s several bridges since that vote was held and the promises of the yoonyoonists have all vanished into very, very thin air in those almost three years.

    Not to mention that the circumstances prevailing, almost three years ago, when the yoonyoonists were making promises have vanished into that same very, very thin air.

    Then there is the fact the yoonyoonists have for some time now been heading this bipartite, (claimed), United Kingdom of two legally equally sovereign partner kingdoms over the ever closer cliff edge that is the BRUKEXIT that was NOT promised to Scotland almost three years ago and of which a majority of Scottish voters voted against.

    None of which has prevented the usual yoonyoonist blowhards in their own personal yoonyoonist bubble from claiming that the almost three years ago vote is a once only vote and Scotland’s voters must never be allowed, (because Westminster says so), to ever get the chance to change their minds in view of the yoonyoonist instigated changes.

    Shall we Scottish indy supporters thus also not get Westminster’s permission to vote ever again to elect our representatives to Holyrood and Westminster?

    Things have changed there also. Yet no yoonyoonists seem to think Scots should never again get the chance to elect a majority of Scottish yoonyoonist to either Westmister or Holyrood where the Scottish yoonyoonist parties elected to office by Scots are presently in the minority.

    Why is one vote a forever thing but the other must legally be held at regular intervals, (excepting when such as Theresa calls a snap election).

    So I ask again — on what actual figures do you base your assumption that most Scots do not want the United Kingdom to end?

  88. Alex Clark

    Luxembourg even won the Eurovision song contest 5 times, beginning from the first in 1956 before withdrawing for good in 1994. The wise burgers 🙂

    Scotland won it once with Lulu in 1969, anyone can correct me but I think that might have been Scotland’s only ever entry so for me that’s exceeds Luxembourg’s great results.

  89. Scot Finlayson


    `There are small, successful nations, it this really does not tell us much about what choices and decisions an indepednat scotland would have to make?


  90. colin alexander

    Richard MacKinnon says:”Surely the point that is ignored by all on this thread is that ‘Scotland does not want to do it”.

    I can address that.

    Scotland’s people have never been offered a credible independence economic strategy, so how do we know?

    YES agreed with Dave Cameron’s demand that they ask: Should Scotland be an independent country? Yes or No.

    But what was the YES campaign: Scotland having a Monetary Union with the other parts of what is currently the UK.

    With the result the UK Govt said: if you are indy you’re no getting a credit card to a shared bank account, but with The Bank of England picking up the tab.

    Basically, if you want to share the £ you must be in Union. If you want to be independent, we refuse to share the £ with indy Scotland.

    So, the indy campaign was fooked.

    “What’s your plan B?” was the often repeated taunt.

    It’s amazing even with such a poor economic case put forward for indy that 45% voted YES.

    I’m NOT saying there isn’t a good economic case for indy. I am saying YES in 2014 fooked it up and didn’t put one forward for people to vote YES to.

    IF, and I mean IF, Indyref2 came up with a basic sensible economic policy for indy Scotland, I think the majority could vote YES.

  91. Petra

    Oh here we go again. Get ready for another night of the Rock and (T) Roll show. Laurel and Hardy. Please ignore folks. One thread after another is getting ruined on here.


    @ Jimbo says at 2:39 pm …. ”Luxembourg is a member of NATO, yet George Robertson, Labour’s lord of cringe and ex General Secretary of NATO tried to tell us that NATO would not want Scotland as a member.”

    Once again Jimbo the MSM propaganda machine was cherrypicking, as they trumpeted Robertson’s comments far and wide they suppressed Dame Mariot Leslie’s (YES voting Scot) comments. DML last UK Ambassador to NATO, at that time, had stated that we would be welcomed with open arms. She’s now on Nicola Sturgeon’s ‘Council of Experts’ (Standing Council).


    @ Cactus says at 3:38 pm …. ”Hey Petra x ~ following on from ur 5:51pm above, howsabout …. Institutionalisation:
    “If someone becomes institutionalised, they gradually become less able to think and act independently, because of having lived for a long time under the rules of an institution:” … “People who have no hopes are easy to control.. and whoever has the control has the power.” Make that seven. Think BIG Scotland… “there are no boundaries..” Roll on August! ?

    Spot on Cactus. One flew over the cuckoo’s nest comes to mind … and I ain’t planning on hanging around for long enough to get a lobotomy, LOL. Next August sounds good to me (and March 2019 x).

  92. Reluctant Nationalist

    Geeo seems like he’s arranged discreet nighttime meetings with other men before.

  93. Stoker

    To Colin Alexander:

    You talk of being “counter productive” then you go and deliberately post 2 direct links to a BUM rag. Hypocrisy or what? BTW, If you’re genuinely concerned then i think the Rev prefers you contact him privately through the contact facility at the top of the page? That way you’re not disrupting the thread, especially if you’re that concerned for this sites well-being.

    To any newbies lurking in the shadows:

    Clicking on direct links to Unionist sites help that site to pull in more advertising revenue which in turn is used to churn out more destructive pieces about Scotland and all related matters.

    Please try and avoid aiding and abetting those sites by not clicking on direct links to them. There’s absolutely no reason to post direct links. For every pathetic excuse for posting them there *is* a way around it.

  94. Gfaetheblock

    Scott – think a typo snuck in there

    There are small, successful nations, BUT this really does not tell us much about what choices and decisions an INDEPENDENT scotland would have to make?

  95. heedtracker

    @ Jimbo says at 2:39 pm …. ”Luxembourg is a member of NATO, yet George Robertson, Labour’s lord of cringe and ex General Secretary of NATO tried to tell us that NATO would not want Scotland as a member.”

    He actually said,

    Scottish independence ‘would be cataclysmic for the world’, ex-Nato head warns

    Lord (George) Robertson says ‘the forces of darkness would simply love it’ if Scotland voted Yes in September 18 referendum


    That’s how bad it can get out there, SLab yoons be crazy. Although his slot at the Lords trough was in jeopardy, so great socialist workers like Lord George were jolly angry, at this threat to what these dudes do consider their just rewards.

  96. scottieDog

    @Colin Alexander
    I’m in broad agreement regarding the currency union. Its an arrangement which could have worked fairly well (for a while) with Westminster cooperation.

    I was very much on favour of a sovereign currency and still am. If you thought however that project fear was bad regarding currency union wait till you hear the utter crap they will produce when scotland announces prospective indy with a new currency. Hint wiemar, Zimbabwe etc..

    I can see why salmond strategically chose plan A. It certainly was never the best one long term but people are going to be bombarded with threats about their personal £ denominated debt (the dividend of the city of london rule). It’s valid and could be an achilles heel if we don’t get these things worked out now.

  97. Alex Clark

    Luxembourg has the highest minimum wage in Europe at 1999 Euro/month 48% higher than the UK at 1354 Euro/month.

  98. Alex Clark

    UK average monthly wages are 1993 Euro (Net) which is less than the Luxembourg minimum wage.

    The average Luxembourg monthly wage is 3159 Euro (Net). I think Scotland is being shortchanged here. Well somebody must be pocketing the difference don’t you think?

  99. colin alexander

    @Stoker, fair enough points.

    I usually do try to use for links such as this but was pressed for time tonight. Apologies for setting a bad example today.


    The complaint about Geeo’s post was done in open forum deliberately, to mark when a line is being crossed. Talking in menacing tones will only play into the hands of those who want to harm Wings’ reputation and I felt it had to be addressed.

    I’m willing to accept an apology and for the offending remark to be withdrawn by Geeo. Then we can forget about it.

    I’m not here to grass people or get them banned, even if some on here try to do that to me. As, believe it or not, I’m not out to troll.

    I’m here to learn, stimulate debate and promote Scottish sovereignty and Scottish independence – by a mixture of criticisms of mistakes, suggesting ideas and praise when getting it right.

  100. Dave McEwan Hill

    Am I becoming over paranoid?

    I just watched the BBC news from Passchendaele. At the Passchendaele campaign the Scots were at the front from the start and continuously thereafter and as well as three full Scots divisions there were Scots throughout all the other divisions and the Canadian division was half Scottish but we have had everybody – Canadian, Australian, Welsh and English but no Scots – on the “national” news.

  101. heedtracker

    Dave McEwan Hill says:
    31 July, 2017 at 10:37 pm
    Am I becoming over paranoid?

    No its exact same on BBC r4 news, focusing on the Welsh, no mention of Scots.

    Yoon culture at its most atavistic. You’re either with them or youre not. And they will use anything they can, even war dead and sacrifice to make sure Scots get their message.

    Scotland belongs to them. We are nothing.

  102. heedtracker

    I’m willing to accept an apology and for the offending remark to be withdrawn by Geeo. Then we can forget about it.

    Hey you threatened me with legal action numbnuts. Yous are also extremely insulting, you just chicken out of names. One rule for you, another for everyone else.

    How very yoon of you Colin.

  103. Tinto Chiel

    Dave McEwan Hill, 10.37: thought it was just me.

    More airbrushing of our disproportionate sacrifice.

  104. Phronesis

    Wee is a positive attribute in economic terms;

    ‘Many advanced economies now face lagging productivity and competitiveness, substantial fiscal and macro imbalances, and poor employment, social mobility and income distribution outcomes. Addressing these structural issues will require a new generation of policy thinking and action…

    Many small advanced economies – say those with populations of less than 20 million – have performed strongly over the past few decades; they have held their collective share of global GDP constant, have sustained a competitive position that has enabled them to expand into global markets, and have responded effectively to the crisis. And measures of income distribution and social mobility are commonly better in small countries.

    So what have they done? There is no one model. But the successful small countries develop deliberate national strategies to engage with the world, build strong public sector capacity, and pursue inclusive growth models. And the intense competitive realities small countries face mean that they are more likely to continuously adapt and innovate as the world changes – and less likely to run unsustainable policies. Small countries behave with real seriousness of purpose’

    Scotland is a wee country soon to be independent and will aim to be the best it can be on its own wee terms.

  105. HandandShrimp

    Few would disagree. Surely the point that is ignored by all on this thread is that ‘Scotland does not want to do it’.


    This entire series was sparked off by Scotland in Union saying that we couldn’t do it. “On a practical level, I do not believe for one moment that Scotland could thrive alone..” their recent article said.

    The Unionist argument is not that we don’t want to do it but rather they have laboured the point to breaking that Scotland is singularly, uniquely shite and incapable and therefore shouldn’t even think about doing it. An argument ably abetted by the press and the TV.

    We have rather more confidence in our own country and those that call Scotland home than they who would make such an argument.

  106. colin alexander


    It was a huge mistake for the Scot Govt to back down from their desire to have multiple choices on the referendum paper.

    YES or NO to indy left the UK Govt the chance to have a blank cheque on standy as needed, but unsigned and worthless.

    There is nothing to stop them doing the same again during indyref2.

    That’s why I repeatedly suggested the Scot Govt press for Scottish Sovereignty NOW, BEFORE any indyref2.

    If we pre-empted the UK Govt, it is likely we would already have established the UK won’t respect the exercising of Scottish sovereignty by the declaration that Scotland’s Parliament is sovereign in matters affecting Scotland.

  107. jfngw

    @Dave McEwan Hill

    It would seem that the BBC has decided that in the table of positive stories, or any stories, Scotland comes in just below North Korea.

    Maybe they have taken umbrage that the majority of Scots seem to think it is a bit poor. Remember it once claimed ‘it’s your BBC’, obviously since almost everyone you watch on it are in the top 1% it was never the truth.

  108. Artyhetty

    D.McEwan Hill@10.37

    No you are most likely not paranoid. Scotland is silenced and in fact rendered invisible unless there is something very bad to report. Britnats (almost put britants!) would like to write Scotland out of the history books especially when it comes to their feistiness and loyalty to king, queen & country, the so called UK, the union. The parasitic union, one sided and we know which side is the parasite.

    The UK and their pals’ further afield, state run media are writing the script, they want it told in their own words, ie, a bending of the truth.

    Now I want to go to all these small, useless :-/ countries damn!

    Oh and btw, NZ, has gone down the pan, small population, big country, right wing gov which is almost a mirror image of the tory gov in WM. Well, maybe not quite so far right? Funny that, it is geographically placed at our opposite, but I guess the colonial mindset for some there still exists.
    I decided I couldn’t live there with my NZ partner years ago, with no castles, just lots of cows and windy hills, and so far away from home. Nice people, mostly, if a bit too conservative, and beautiful landscape though. Shame it’s being ruined by big corps wanting to farm it to kingdom come, now. Grr.

  109. colin alexander


    I was being topical and pointing out it’s against SCOTS LAW to defame people.

    I have withdrawn any threat of legal action anyway, as I think being called a Unionist would not be regarded as lowering my status in society and I wouldn’t want to give you any hassle anyway.

    Also, as I am not a Freemason, and not part of the Establishment, I think the Sheriff won’t have any interest in justice for me or you.

    But, you should have just withdrawn your comment when you realised you had no evidence to support it.

  110. Joe of the Coutts

    Alex Clark at 9.26. Eurovision? There was Kenneth McKeller: with kilt. ?

  111. Joe of the Coutts

    Alex Clark at 9.26. Eurovision? There was Kenneth McKeller: with kilt. ?

  112. Joe of the Coutts

    Alex Clark at 9.26. Eurovision? There was Kenneth McKeller: with kilt.

  113. Joe of the Coutts

    Oops! Sorry for repeat.’twas awfa’ slow.

  114. Robert Graham

    Late & Definatly o/t – BBC website has its cusomery go at the SNHS -Then there is this little bit about Alex Salmonds show being sold out, any other media outfit I would think well that’s really good, this outfit I tend to think are they trying to stop people buying tickets, so they can say yes yet another failure for Salmond , Yes I know it’s petty and twisted, but it’s the BBC after all ha ha Nite .

  115. Ghillie

    Petra @ 2.51 pm

    That list of 6 tatics to control wommen ( or another ) makes chilling reading.

    And it certainly fits the treatment Scotland has received from the UK Government and ruling elite.

    The tactics don’t always have to be dramaticaly obvious.

    Many an abuser’s behaviour can be very subtle and incidious, making it so much harder to be sure it is really happening and can you really call it out without appearing paranoid and then facing ridcule. Sound familiar?

    Nasty stuff.

    I do see many parallels throughout our history, recent past and now, every day.

    When Scotland wins Independence the relief and sense of freedom and possibilities that lie ahead will be immense = )

  116. crazycat

    @ Robert Graham

    I understand your suspicion, but the official site shows that it’s sold out:

    I don’t see why they would fake it. When I bought a ticket not long after it was advertised, several days (mostly at the weekends) were already sold out, so I’m not at all surprised there are no tickets left well before the start of the show.

  117. Dr Jim

    Currency union with Inglind?

    You must be joking, they had their chance and blew it and now to do it makes no sense whatsoever
    Tying Scotland to a banking failing currency would wreck our economy now just when we have the chance to use our own currency
    You’d be wiser investing in some coloured beads and red cloth to trade with the Inglish in the coming years, it’ll be worth more as long as we stop them before they sell everything Scotland has for the price of a bleached Kentucky fried Trump turkey lathered in plastic cheese which contains no cheese

    Only in America eh

    BTW One barrel of North sea oil is worth four barrels of Saudi oil I’m informed by those who know about this stuff
    (consistency or some such) I’m no expert but if true isn’t it about time everybody stopped ignoring the fact we’ve got tons of it and people want it and if it becomes ours to sell to those people we should damn well get on with it and make our country some money before the damned Inglish steal the bloody lot

    I’m anti anybody who wants to steal from my country before anybody starts with the anti stuff

  118. Still Positive

    Ghillie @ 12.24

    To true. Let independence come in my lifetime so I can enjoy it before I die. I will be 67 in September.

  119. Az

    Luxembourg!! SHUCKS!! 🙂

  120. Ghillie

    Dave McEwan Hill @ 10.37 pm

    You are not being paranoid. It is another form of abuse.

    The BBC’s neglecting tribute to and remembrance of Scottish soldiers who fought and died at Passchendael 100 years ago is shocking and cruel.

    That insult will not go unnoticed by our living veterans and serving military.

  121. Ghillie

    Still Positve @ 12.36 am

    Happy Birthday in September = )

    So young and so much lovely Independent Scotland ahead of you 🙂

  122. Ghillie

    Thank you K1 = )

  123. Col

    MI5 probably bought loads of tickets for Alex Salmonds show so that when the BBC report on it they’ll show a theatre barely half full. Aye he’s no popular that Alex Salmond, no one wants to hear what he has to say along with the rest of the SNP and wider yes movement. The tide is going out on them and indy is dead.
    Just coz am paranoid doesn’t mean they’re not out to get us!

  124. Alex Clark

    @Joe of the Coutts

    Sorry if I’ve confused you Joe I was using the shortened version of the popular song contest that runs every year on European TV.

    Presumably to keep the plebs happy 🙂

    The Eurovision Song Contest (French: Concours Eurovision de la chanson since 1973; sometimes popularly called Eurovision or Grand Prix but not to be confused with the Eurovision network that broadcasts it) is the longest-running annual international TV song competition, held, primarily, among the member countries of the European Broadcasting Union (EBU) since 1956.

  125. Alex Clark

    @Joe of the Coutts

    Hahaha just made a diddy of myself, sorry Joe I didn’t know of the year that Kenneth McKeller wie a kilt took part.

    So Scotland scored 1 win from 2 entries so far. Any more? 🙂

  126. Az

    @ Ghillie

    Thanks for your kind words regarding my view of Luxembourg. I was lucky enoough to be there during the Jazz Festival which is 12 outdoor stages around the old city. Marvellous, but they did stick ~€0.50 on to a beer.

    Still reasonable – local favourite Bofferding, a very smooth, palatable lager that does not taste its 4.8%. Jupiler is frequently seen, not as nice, basically cheap Belgian mass produced stuff à la Carling but obvs much nicer than that pisswater. Oranjeboom and some other Dutch things I’d never heard of and cannot recall now! I was mainly on the quality Belgian badboys and it was on this trip, while in the region of Luxembourg, Belgium (2 Luxembourgs as someone mentioned above, they are adjacent in fact – the nation and the region of Belgium) that I discovered my favourite continental beer – La Chouffe. The same brewery Brasserie D’Achouffe do various styles and one of their most popular is Mc Chouffe – the usual gnome on the bottles is dressed in tartan, and this is a Scottish style old ale.

    It says much for Scotland, that our own old-style of beer is copied and produced to great success by an acclaimed Belgian artisanal brewer!

    But wait, Scotland’s shite, surely? Who’d drink this? Loads of beer fans all across continental Europe, that’s who!

  127. K1

    Ghillie, ‘magine living wi ‘that’ mindset…disnae bare thinking about, mair tae be pitied etc, nonetheless should be called out at every turn. Besides it’s good debating practice 😉

  128. Alex Clark

    There was an article on Commonspace that I thought I might leave a comment on, nothing to do with the Rev it was one from last month.

    So I couldn’t post until I registered, OK no big deal so I had a look. Now Wings requires an email address and username, that’s it so it is totally anonymous.

    Commonspace want the above and your first name, second name and postcode.

    Postcode! What’s that all about? Giving that information to any website makes you immediately identifiable and everything about you is then known if people care to look.

    Why anybody would want to know that much information just so as you can comment on a blog beats me.

  129. Az

    Wonder if anyone has seen this shecht:

    Are they convinced they’re the majority?

    “Only by driving down support for independence can we force them to back off.”

  130. yesindyref2

    Exercise Saxon Warrior starts today for 10 days, and will see activity around Scotland, particularly the Hebrides, with the Nimitz class USS George H.W. Bush taking part.

    There are British sailors aboard learning their stuff, or so it’s said, but a rumour going around [1] is that Fallon and the MI5 have a plan to commandeer the carrier while in “British” waters, to save money on the Prince Edward. Either that or it’s Hammond making his move on the PMship.

    [1] A rumour I’m just starting, admittedly.

  131. yesindyref2

    YT (since I misdid the last one)
    Current location seems to be off Portsmouth, at least the Iron Duke is and the RFA Wave Ruler not far away.

  132. Graeme J McAllan

    Here’s a wee thought – all these “Small Independent countries” actually control their own resources, while we just give ours away to the United Kingdom of London – how will we ever be able to fix this? Our abundant natural resources are such a curse 🙁

  133. Fred

    On a reserve list for tickets for AS, so not optimistic! He should have booked the Hydro in Glasgow!

  134. Dorothy Devine

    Am I alone in thinking the event at Ypres yesterday was a total waste of money when a legless young soldier can no longer receive treatment from the ENHS? or a crippled soldier is denied the chance to build a wee home in his parents garden so that they can care for him? or when the coffins return the good folk of Wootton Basset are denied the right to stand in the streets and honour them – no bloody politician did.

    I remember the once Secretary of Defence ,one Philip Hammond , saying that the people of the UK were getting soft on war and shortly after the coffins went quietly by a different route – by passing those who helped the grieving.

    I also remember him crowing on National news about a most successful Arms Fair. A despicable man.

    Ronnie , glad I read that piece , most excellent. Hope you are enjoying life and are fighting fit.

    Still Positive, I want to see the same but I will be 71 on Friday so I wish it would move along a wee bit faster!

    When I’m going up in smoke to some of the music of Runrig, Skippinish and Mr MacLean ,I want to know I’m leaving a better , more confident, independent, happier, wonderful wee country for the children and grandchildren of Scotland to enjoy.

  135. Ken500

    The Tory Royals should be apologising for 1WW. Caused by their descendants. Hypocrites. The Europeans Royals. German Victoria’s grandsons. Intermarriage and rivalries. Cousins. The ‘divine right to rule’. It finished most of them off. Czar and Kaiser. Led on to 11WW. The EU has helped stop war in Europe. The UK/US have been illegally bombing the Middle East to bits, causing the worst migration crisis since 11WW. Killing and maiming millions of vulnerable people. Costing £Trns. The European countries have to deal with the fallout.

    The US/UK want to start a war with Russia, Russia saved the West in the 11WW. They took the brunt. 26Million Russians died. 1/2Million French, British, US died in Europe. 1.5Million. Russia the Russian economy was devastated.

    The £millionaire farmers MSP’s MP’s are not declaring their subsidies/cap payments in their declaration of interest. They are a financial interest. They want to cut £MillionS from the education budget and shut the rural schools. They have already cut the the bases and additional/needs specialist teachers. Causing misery for anxious families. They plan to try and cut the rural schools and cause overcrowding. Standing up in Parliament saying they support Education. Liars Blaming the SNP for forty years of damaging Tory fishing policies. They were throwing back more dead fish than they caught for years because they did not use bigger nets, like the Norwegians. Leading to conservation measures having to be introduced.

    Scottish Gov 2000. SNP minority Gov 2007.

    Mad Cow came from Alabama. Cost the taxpayers £Billions. The US still not regulating and listing incidents of bad practice. Under reporting. Beef exports were banned for over ten years losing £Trns? Now Brexit will wreck the Scotish economy. Scotland did not vote for it. The Westminster psycho bastards destroying the world economy. Vote SNP, SNP. Vote for Independence in the EU. To stand up for Scotland and protect the economy. Scotland loses £20Billion to Westminster mismanagement.

  136. Ken500

    The radicals. Claiming the left should support Indy then voting for Corbyn. Yet they want to be taken seriously. Cutting off their nose to spite their face. Some people never learn. They put off folk voting for Indy. Scotland is left of centre. Like most EU counties. A market economy with Gov measures for fairness. Like most successful, more equal, prosperous happy, cohesive counties in the world. All of them are smaller counties at the top of the list.

    The UK is 16th. A failing economy. Scotland is being dragged down by a poor mismanaged UK Gov Scotland did not vote for it. An SNP majority. The Courts are over ruling Westminster illegal decisions. On welfare/benefits and people’s rights. Tribunals etc. Westminster unionists have cut Education/NHS funding.

    They are spending £Billions on grotesque projects of no value. Hinkley Point, HS2, Heathrow and Trident. There are more credible alternatives. Westminster unionists have banned wind turbines, cut support for solar and tidal. Spending £Billions on squint Trident. Now the mess of Brexit. Costing £Trns. The Westminster unionists and their cronies are making £Billions out of destroying the economy. Putting the UK into £Trns of debt. Illegally cutting Scotland’s budget and holding Scotland back, from being a more successful economy. Total Westminster mismanagement in every way.

  137. Hamish100

    High heels at work. Equality for women not to be forced to wear high heel shoes based on a University of Aberdeen report. The Scottish government should legislate. Fair enough.
    BBC north Britain then discusses this by referring to the devolved administrations and informing the contributors from England what should happen. Obviously no women in Scotland are able to contribute. Earlier same approach. I don’t per-se have an issue for contributors coming from outside but only if they have something more to add.
    When it comes to shoes Scotland is to wee…….too…….

    BBC north jumping on Brit state dictat.

  138. Ken500

    Alex Salmond did more for the NE and Scotland in five years than the Unionists did in fifty. Alex Salmond is still the most popular politician in the NE and Scotland than any other politician. Respected worldwide. No matter what the Tory/Unionist liars say. They have had they’d day, Nay is the most unpopular PM ever. Along with the rest of them. Ignorant incompetents. Liars always get found out. Tory/Unionist have to cheat to win. Donation, expenses, lies etc. Breaking the Law with impunity.

    The ‘Scotland’ Office, £26Million for propaganda. Unelected politicians interfering in Scotland’s affairs. Illegal wars, financial fraud and tax evasion. The BBC prima donna tax evaders. On non disclosed contracts. An abuse of public money. Non accountable. £3,7Billion. Propaganda beamed worldwide. To hide Westminster unionist illegal activities. Kept secret under the Official Secrets Act. Abuse and corruption.

  139. Robert Louis

    Fred at 0720am,

    Aye Alex Salmond might need the Hydro or maybe something even bigger. I too tried and failed to get tickets. Think it will be the hottest show at the Fringe.

    He needs to book the EICC or the Playhouse. What a story that would be. 🙂

  140. Ken500

    The Tories have had their day, May is the most unpopular MP ever. They can’t even get on with the day job. They are so corrupt. A Brexit shambles of counter claims. A world laughing stock.

  141. mike cassidy

    Davidson as May’s replacement, anyone?

    Feel free to leave a comment.

    Just remember to spellcheck!

  142. colin alexander

    @John Jones re: an abusive marriage

    You made a comparison about an abusive marriage. So, I thought you might enjoy this piece I wrote during the 2014 indyref campaign. ( Don’t tell the others, they think I’m a Unionist):

    There was a woman. The woman was married. Her grandparents had arranged her marriage to a neighbour when she was too young to have a say.

    Her husband was not a bad man; he didn’t beat her. They did care about each other too and had the same culture. By now they had also had a long relationship together.

    The husband said they had a relationship of equals. Yet, she was only allowed to make decisions about the things her husband allowed her to. Other important decisions about their life, and her life, were always made by her husband.

    The husband said he might allow her to make more decisions in the future, but he will decide what those would be. He also had the power to stop her having the right to decide anything, if he wished.

    The husband was wealthy, but the woman had wealth too. She had more money than she knew about.The husband controlled all the finances and he feared if she knew how wealthy she really was it would encourage her to leave him, so he always told her she was poor and would be in poverty without his wealth.

    The husband gave her an allowance and she was free to spend the money he gave her, but he always decided how much she would get, what sort of things she could spend it on, and he could cut her money anytime he wanted to.

    The woman could not decide what her husband did or how much he spent or what he spent it on. She was allowed to discuss it with him but only he could make the final decisions.

    Her husband always made the big decisions. He said he always knew what’s best for them.

    Eventually the woman discovered her husband had lied about how wealthy she had been and that he had been using her money to make his friends wealthier, so she confronted her husband about the deceit.

    He finally admitted: Yes, I lied about your wealth for forty years, but I did it with good intentions, Now I’m telling the truth, your savings are almost gone; I spent them all.

    The woman believed she still had enough money but she wasn’t sure exactly how much she would have. Obviously it wouldn’t be as much as before, but it would still be enough to live on. Her husband was still lying to her: if she took her money and used it wisely, she would still be a wealthy woman.

    If they divorced she would be free to make all her own decisions, she would be free to spend or save her money as she decided.

    She could remain friends with her husband, but he would no longer control her life.

    She considered things. Her marriage did have some good points: she had the security of their marriage and the security of his wealth too, even though he controlled it. She didn’t have to take the responsibility for any mistakes.

    She faced a dilemma:

    Should she decide to be free to make her own decisions and seek her own happiness?

    Should she take responsibility for her own money, her own successes and failures?

    Or should she stay in an unhappy marriage where she might have more security for now, but she would never have the freedom to spend her own money or make all her own decisions?

    The woman’s name was Scotland. Her husband’s name was England.

  143. Meg merrilees

    David McEwan Hill/Heedtracker @ 10.37 31st July

    I wondered if I was becoming paranoid too!

    Watching the Passchendaele commemoration I noticed that it was the BBC England and Wales memorial service.
    Why was it mostly officers doing the readings and not lower ranks after all 500,000 men were killled injured or missing, not 500,000 Officers!
    And no surprise, you guessed it, the only ‘Scottish uniformed’ officer there spoke with a south British accent – you can rely on the BBC.
    Maybe they mentioned the Welsh because Lloyd-George was PM then.

    However, I thought it was a beautiful place and the visuals were stunning.
    The King of Belgium seemed very moved by it all, wiping away tears at the end and Prince Charles was dressed like the Man from Del Monte.

    Did they tell the listeners that they were listening to the National Youth Choir of Scotland?

    Oh for the days of a Tom Fleming voice over!

    My grandad fought at Passchendaele and told me about it’s horrors once, he even drew me a little map of where the various lines were and the trenches etc. I realised that this was an important conversation because he had never mentioned anything about it before but I was only 11 at the time and for years I have regretted that I couldn’t really recall much of what he had drawn.

    Later that year, he decided he would like to get his medals out of the bureau for Nov 11th Remembrance, and I remember helping him to polish them. They were proudly displayed on the mantelpiece.
    Within a week he suffered a stroke and he died on the 28th Nov.

    On Saturday night, I saw an actual map of the layout of the battlefield, where the British(Scottish)/opposition troops were and was shocked to realise that I recognised it instantly, even knowing where the trenches were and the hill.

    The fact that any of us is here now is a miracle when you consider just how many Scottish men died in that war.
    Our ancestors were remarkable people.

  144. ronnie anderson


    Things are going well for Angela Haggerty lol.

  145. Vestas

    Getting to the stage that anything Haggerty is involved in should be boycotted.

  146. Liam

    Thank you for this series. Inspired stuff. Keep it up.

  147. Tinto Chiel

    When I was a nipper, our lollipop man was a veteran of Hill 60. He used to tell us (censored, I’m sure) tales from the trenches. He had a great sense of humour and had respect for the Germans he was fighting. Later, when I discovered as an adult what hell Ypres/Passchendaele was, I had even more respect for him.

    I had Pravdasound4 on most of yesterday and can’t recall a single reference to the Scottish troops who fought and died there.

    I don’t regard that as a coincidence Ignore/belittle/demean: it’s the Union Dividend.

    Good old BBC.

    Ronnie A: looks like Captain Haggerty’s going to be reduced to the ranks, eh?

  148. Footsoldier

    Off topic but I see Chris Deerin is featuring regularly in The Herald these days. Given his previous writings in the Telegraph, Scotland on Sunday, Daily Mail and The Record,it pretty much confirms the direction The Herald is heading.

    I think this is probably the thing that finally makes me stop buying it.

  149. galamcennalath

    ” Mr Hammond insisted that Brexit would go ahead as planned … “

    Laugh or cry?!

    “Planned”? What plan? Does someone somewhere actually know what the plan is?

    In reality he probably meant ‘as scheduled’. I don’t think there is any doubt Brexit will happen on 29th March 2019. However what the relationship between the UK and the EU is on that date is anyone’s guess!

  150. Richard MacKinnon

    yesindyref2 31 July, 2017 at 5:06 pm

    Don’t distort what I actually said.

    “What you actually mean is that Scotland didn’t want to do it IN 2014.

    Now, in 2017, or in 2019 with Brexit looming large on the disaster horizon, nobody knows what Scotland wants, without Indy Ref 2.

    Which, presumably as a democrat, you would naturally support”.

    No I don’t support another referendum. And I don’t believe there will ever be another referendum. In fact that is my point. It is undemocratic, divisive, unreasonable and naïve to argue for another referendum.
    Had Scotland voted Yes in 2014 Scotland would now be an independent country. We did not. We voted No. The result whether you like it or not has to be respected.
    This is why I find nationalists especially on this site, stubbornly in denial of the harsh realities of the facts of 2014 so out of touch. The circumstances, the promises made, the Brexit result are all in the past. There is no point in dragging up old arguments. The result stands.
    I cant understand why this is so difficult to comprehend.

  151. galamcennalath

    colin alexander says:

    … had the same culture …

    1707 and Scotland and England would have been culturally quite different.

    Most people would have only spoken Scots which was almost certainly incomprehensible to an English speaker. Over a quarter would only have spoken Gaelic.

    Religion pervaded everything and a mainly Presbyterian society would have been very different to an Anglican one. The laws and legal system systems were different.

    A better analogy might be a woman forced against her will into servitude as a concubine.

  152. Ken500

    The majority in Scotland voted for a Party that supports Independence. Have a mandate for a second IndyRef. On a manipulated unionist voting system introduced. FPTP would have wiped the Unionists out. The majority in Scotland voted for EU membership. The Vow. People in Scotland were lied to by Unionists and MSM.

    1707 Scotland pop was 1/4 of the UK. Now it is 1/12. Westminster centrist economic policies depopulated Scotland. The Clearance etc. Economic policies from 1928 and before have depopulated Scotland. Led to migration. Resources secretly and illegally taken out of Scotland to benefit London S/E. Scotland has a 40million disaporia. People had to leave Scotland to get a job.

  153. galamcennalath

    I know where the Tories went wrong with Brexit. Simple!

    The referendum was held. A majority chose the opinion which unfortunately had no formal definition or prospectus. This win had been achieved by a campaign of improbable promises being presented. Most were highly unlikely to be delivered.

    Nevertheless, the will of the people had been tested and their wishes for significant change expressed,

    What the Tories should have done is called a Commission to formulate proposals to be put before Westminster. Let’s call this The Smith2 Commission.

    100s of submissions could be made by interested parties, then most ignored. That’s easy.

    The final proposals could have been some very weak suggestions for tweeting the status quo. Then the UK could continue pretty much business as usual.

    But what about the will of the people, what they voted for? They voted for significant change, is their decision to be completely ignored?

    Well, yes. Ignoring what people choose in referendums is the Tory way. Is it not?

    Scots were left asking, “where is our DevoSuperFederalMax?” With my plan, the question Leave voters would be asking, “where is our Full English Brexit?”

  154. Brian Allan

    Richard MacKinnon 10:59

    Hi Richard, I’ve not been in the habit of joining in conversations here but having just popped by and seen your comment first, I feel I must. I think you’re either in denial or just stirring up things. It seems yesindyref2 presumes you are a democrat and from your reply it’s obvious you’re not.

    ‘…my point. It is undemocratic, divisive, unreasonable and naïve to argue for another referendum.’

    I can’t accept that you don’t understand that that statement from your angle is nonsensical and it’s obvious that you do understand that the resultant No vote in 2014 was based on lies and was therefore wholly undemocratic and this is why you want the past brushed aside.

    You know Scotland is going to have its Independence and the sooner you accept that the better for all.

  155. Dan Huil

    There’s going to be a hard brexit. There’s going to be indyref2.

  156. Proud Cybernat

    There’s going to be a hard brexit. There’s going to be indyref2.

    There’s going to be Scotland’s independence.

  157. galamcennalath

    @Dan Huil & @ Proud Cybernat

    Hard Brexit -> IndyRef2 -> Independence.

    Westminster, Tories, Brexiteers and assorted BritNats are driving it all along nicely.

    Hard to see any other outcomes TBH!

    The paradox is, I suspect Yoonery is actually more aware and worked up about it than Yes folks!

  158. K1

    Oooft! Ronnie, wow, just wow…what happened to her? Seriously, she’s literally destroyed CS in under a week? I’m no great follower of that blog, I was back circa 2014 especially just after the ref, when Robin penned his ‘get off our knees’ piece…increasingly I felt it was just rehashing msm stuff, so dropped it literally years ago.

    I haven’t read any of this latest stuff, wouldn’t sully ma IP address by clicking on anything she or others have written, the headline piece was a red flag ‘do not enter’ in and of itself last week. Has Robin McAlpine stepped intae the frae yet? Common Weal was a great resource and then he championed Common Space et al. What if any is his position on this, it’s his baby that’s going to tank because of this?

  159. colin alexander

    @Richard MacKinnon

    Scotland did indeed vote NO to independence in 2014. Democracy in action. Sovereignty of the people exercised.

    Whether another indyref will be held is unclear. I’m inclined to agree it won’t happen in the next 4 years.

    Scotland’s electorate voted No to indy. They were never asked about Scotland’s role constitutional status except indy. The UK Govt forbade questions on Home Rule for example or reform of the Union in any way.

    I believe that’s a valid question for unionists and independists.

    I have been suggesting something similar to this:

    A confederal UK, so Scotland would have parliamentary sovereignty, as would England, but there could still be a union based on
    co-operation of equal parliaments of matters of mutual benefit.

    For those that see benefits of a union, we can have that. For those who see the benefits of parliamentary sovereignty for Scotland we can also have that too.


    What YES campaigned for wasn’t independence. They campaigned for a Monetary Union with the constituent parts of the current UK – a deal which the UK Govt and opposition parties of the UK, said would be unacceptable.

    So, I can understand why the majority voted NO then. The Yes campaign’s basic economic policy was nonsense on steroids.


    There are still questions to be asked and answers to be settled. As the 2014 referendum has clearly failed to settle the matter, even for a short time.

    Sadly, the discussion is polarised into full indy v full WM power with devolution.

    Scotland’s people should be allowed to answer the question on whether they would prefer an alternative to the two current extremes.

    It should not be the UK Govt or the Scottish Govt to decide whether Scotland can prefer a confederal arrangement.

    As there is one thing we can all agree on: the people are sovereign.

  160. alasdairB

    Too Wee…
    Perhaps we are underselling Scotland’s diverse resources . What about adding these World Class industries & services ::

    Fisheries, Agriculture/Farming, R&D gaming & bio-tech industries, European leader small & nano
    satellites (Clyde Space), Hi-Tech naval shipbuilding, Financial Services (Standard Life, Aberdeen Asset Management, Edinburgh Partners etc.)

    There are few countries which can compare to the diversity of the Scottish economy. It’s not a case of ‘Too Wee’ but more a lack of self confidence & the ability to grasp the additional opportunities which Independence would most certainly deliver for Scotland.

  161. Reluctant Nationalist

    Full indy, thanks.

  162. Socrates MacSporran

    Tinto Chiel @ 10.16am

    Once again, you and I are on the same page of the hymn sheet. I say this through gritted teeth, but, I thought BBC Scotland did well in their coverage of events in Belgium yesterday.

    They had to, since it seemed to me, BBC London was, again, going out of their way to play down the Scottish effect on Passenchadele. North of England mention – check; Wales mention – check; Irish piper playing – check. The Sweaties, no, best ignore them, they want to leave our precious Union.

    Just because we are paranoid doesn’t mean they are not out to get us.

    slightly off-topic, but

    This morning, I was doing some research online, and as I browsd old newspaper files – the Herald of 1927 to be exact, there was a lengthy letter from a glasgow Corporation councillor, on the subject of Home Rule for Scotland. He was making it clear that the Liberal and Labour Parties were talking-up Home rule, but putting obstacles in its way at the same time, to keep everything Londoncentric.

    Plus ca change and all that.

  163. Alex Clark

    Which of these two countries is the more successful at “punching above it’s weight” in terms of influence over Europe, Luxembourg or the UK?

    Jean-Claude Juncker is the current President of the European Commission, the Commission is the only body responsible for proposing new EU laws.
    He is also a former Prime Minister of Luxembourg.

    Junker is the third Luxembourger to be elected from a total of 12 since the formation of the EEC in 1957, so 25% of Presidents have been from Luxembourg.

    Mind you the President of the European Commission is elected by the full membership of the European Parliament and maybe that’s why here has just been a single UK elected President, Roy Jenkins from 1977 to 1981.

    An interesting fact about his time in office was that the Jenkins Commission was responsible for the development of the Economic and Monetary Union of the European Union which eventually led to the creation of the Euro. A bit ironic I thought 🙂

  164. galamcennalath

    This Craig Murray piece on the BBC is eye opening.

    One aspect I knew was that 40% of high paid staff were privately educated. This appear to reflect in the right wing stance of virtually all high paid BBC people.

    I wonder how this translates into how BBC Scotland seniors and celebs stand?

  165. Vestas

    @galamcennalath 12:44 pm :

    “I wonder how this translates into how BBC Scotland seniors and celebs stand?”

    Most of the “British” actors (was going to say actresses too but thats sexist apparently 🙂 ) you’ve seen over the last 40 years are educated privately. Its a figure which is getting worse, not better.

  166. Proud Cybernat

    Rab’s no’ calling a ‘spade’ a ‘gardening implement’…

  167. colin Alexander

    Reluctant Nationalist said:

    “Full indy, thanks.”

    I second that.

    But, what we got at the 2017 GE was Tories and their Labour and LibDem allies running on a shared manifesto of no to an indyref, which is basically the same as No to independence.

    We know what they don’t want. But what do they WANT?

    They wouldn’t campaign on:

    We seek a mandate for continued WM domination of Scotland.

    A vote for the Tories (and allies) is a vote that Scotland has a worthless Sewel Convention meaning that Scotland has no real say in what powers the Scottish Parliament has.

    A vote for the Tories ( and allies) is a vote for an all powerful Westminster and a powerless Scottish Parliament.

    They run an anti-indy campaign, not a pro-Westminster campaign, because I suspect that would be unacceptable to many people that voted No to independence, but who would agree Scotland’s people are sovereign, so Scotland’s Parliament should be sovereign in Scottish matters too.

  168. Tinto Chiel

    @ Socrates 12.31: Schroedinger’s Home Rulers then?

    An early manifestation 😛 ?

  169. Capella

    @ Meg merrilees 9.38 – thx for that wee story – makes the whole Passchendaele epic more human. I don’t watch TV and so missed all the “commemoration” which seems to have been yet another instance of airbrushing Scotland from history.

    Once is happenstance
    Twice is coincidence
    The third time, it’s enemy action.

  170. Sinky

    On Passenchadele, we should never forget that 26% of Scots in First World War didn’t come home

    The UK’s population in 1911 was 42,138,000 and Scotland’s was 4,751,000: 11.27% of the UK total. It is now 8.3% so much for the Union Dividend.

    Of the Scots who marched away, 26.4% did not come home: the percentage for the rest of the UK and Ireland was 11.8% and for France 16.8%. Only the Serbs and Turks had a higher proportion of participant deaths than Scotland.

    All Scotland’s First World War commemorations should stress the fact that 1.6% of the adult male population of the rest of the UK and Ireland died in the war. Scotland’s adult male population was depleted by 3.1%.

    Those who came back then faced unemployment and poverty with thousands emigrating in the 1920s.

    I am told my Great Grandfather was gassed at Ypres and face used to turn blue when he had regular lung problems but lived until 1960 when he was 65.

  171. Jack Murphy

    heedtracker said at 10:05 pm last night:
    “@ Jimbo says at 2:39 pm …. ”Luxembourg is a member of NATO, yet George Robertson, Labour’s lord of cringe and ex General Secretary of NATO tried to tell us that NATO would not want Scotland as a member.”

    He actually said,

    Scottish independence ‘would be cataclysmic for the world’, ex-Nato head warns……..”

    That’s right heedtracker,and even the Herald and all the others ran that story BUT, and here’s the shock,our very own beloved BBC in Scotland reported it at the time and is still reporting it on-line ad infinitum for anyone seeking the truth.

    Labour’s Project Fear Baron Robertson stated,as reported by the BBC:
    “The former secretary general of Nato has said that Scottish independence would be cataclysmic for the West in an era of international turmoil.

    Speaking in the US, Lord Robertson said a “debilitating divorce” after a “Yes” vote in September would threaten the stability of the wider world.

    He said he believed the US administration was worried about the possibility of Scottish independence.

    The Scottish government said the comments were “crass and offensive”
    Scotland’s Deputy First Minister Nicola Sturgeon said she was “shocked” by the language of the former Labour defence secretary………”

    Labour’s Baron Robertson of somewhere or other made that “cataclysmic” speech in early 2014.
    Labour hasn’t,and never will change it’s stance on self-determination for Scotland.

  172. Al Dossary

    @galamcennalath, Vestas

    The figures for the BBC and the performing arts in general beggars belief with respect to privaty educated. The same is also true of the Judiciary, Civil Service, Foreign Office, finance and banking. The vast majority in the senior positions are privately educated.

    Why is this so ? Because the old boys network keeps it that way. ” One of Daddy’s friends invited me to the power station he is a manager of at the weekend” was one quote I heard at Uni when I was studying there. Quoted in its best upper class plummy, English accent.

    I am fortunate enough that as a “kid from the scheme”, my desert based employer pays 90% of school fees for my child at boarding school. The boarding school was not an easy decision for us as parents to make, let alone our child – but ultimately it was the best option for continuing education.

    I have seen a shy, middle of the road child blossom into a confident young adult with better grades than we could have dreamt of – much more than would have ever happened in a state school. The opportunities now ahead are much better than either myself or my wife had at that age.

    The biggest difference I see in the private sector kids aside from their grades is the confidence they have. They are perfectly at ease talking to adults on an equal footing. They are not afraid to speak their mind or debate as an equal. That the majority of kids in Scotland are not like that is the biggest failing of our states school system.

    One of the schools we were sent a prospectus for was Gordonstoun. A whopping 54% of the Alumni from the school according to their prospectus secured on graduation “employment in the media or the performing arts”.

    In fact when I met one of the parents (ex Foreign Office) at my child’s school last time I was there he seemed surprised that I did not know any of the Embassy Staff names he threw into the conversation.

  173. Proud Cybernat

    Good ol’ BBC Numpty Vision, eh Proud Scot Buts. All that BritNat Better Togetherness, Rule Britannia, “we fought together in two world wars” and not a mention of your Proud Scottish Butness, narey a world of Scotland’s contribution. Almost as if we weren’t even there, that none of us died there.

    Are you seeing yet, Proud Scot Butters? The British don’t give a flying fuck about you or about Scotland. This is how much you mean to them. England, Wales and Ireland all mentioned there. Not a Jackie Bird aboot your brother, uncle, father, grand father or great grand father who might have died there.

    You still a Proud Scot But…?

  174. heedtracker

    Labour hasn’t,and never will change it’s stance on self-determination for Scotland.

    Slabour are the red tories, for a whole range of hideous red tory bullshit er, reasons.

  175. starlaw

    This is not new on the 50 anniversary of El Alamein Harry Secombe did his Sunday night religious prog. from the battlefield. He listed all the allied countries who took part except Scotland, Wales and N.Ireland were mentioned.
    I lost all respect for the man.

  176. Legerwood

    Al Dossary @ 3.15pm
    “”The biggest difference I see in the private sector kids aside from their grades is the confidence they have. They are perfectly at ease talking to adults on an equal footing. They are not afraid to speak their mind or debate as an equal. That the majority of kids in Scotland are not like that is the biggest failing of our states school system.””

    State schools do a lot to try to give children confidence but if the work they do in schools is not reinforced in their home environments where they spend most of their time then the lessons won’t take.

    Look around when you are out and about. How many parents and their children – all age groups – have their noses in their respective smartphones or tablets? How many are having conversations with one another?

    At home they are probably in separate rooms or spaces within a room intent on their own thing.

    If adults, parents, grandparents etc don’t speak to children then they don’t pick up the conversational skills that will give them confidence to express themselves in any situation. With the best will in the world schools cannot do that on their own.

    Private schools appear to do it but much of what they appear to achieve is down to the groundwork laid at home.

  177. Peter McCulloch

    OT: I had a scan through today’s daily stranger before putting it back on the news stand.

    I did read part of Dugdale’s column attacking the Scottish Government over austerity and about school leavers who end up on zero hours contracts.

    what I found interesting is she never once explained to readers of that rag how the Scottish Government whose budget is being cut by Westminster, could possibly absorb those cuts to its budget without passing consequences
    of those cuts.

    Also the Scottish Government has limited power on employment,I may be wrong in this, but I don’t believe the Scottish Government currently has the powers to end zero hours contracts.

  178. gus1940

    I couldn’t help noticing the absence of Charles’ gargoyle at Tynecot yesterday.

    Probably kept in hiding following the recent disclosures.

  179. Proud Cybernat

    Scotland, dying above its weight for Imperial British Nationalist wars.

    Are we thick or what?

  180. heedtracker

    Are we thick or what?

    Thick. Russian soldiery shot their generals and came home, to revolution. Same thing should have happened here too.

    Its probably all down to class and love of royalty, to be fair. This weekend C4 are running a comedy starring a dead royal, all based on vids made by her vocal coach.

    I mean come on, that is funny.

    Another good tory rule Britnatia BBC laugh this week is listening the BBC r4 Today gimps, led by Nic Robinson, slimy as ever, as they all try to soft soap the latest Pres Trump catastrofuck.

    They’re an awful pack of overpaid tory sleaze bags, but they are really being stretched trying to cover Orange Hitler and Brexit.

  181. Sinky

    Will the BBC, tabloid press, Tory, Labour politicians and particularly Lib Dem Cole Hamilton now apologise for traducing Michelle Thomson’s reputation without a shred of credible legal evidence.

    Normally people are considered innocent until proved guilty and the witch hunt against Michelle Thomson was disgusting with the BBC playing a prominent role.

  182. Robert Peffers

    It is noted that there is to be no case brought against Michele Thompson. Now if ever anyone had a case to sue almost every newspaper and broadcaster in the disUnited Kingdom. Also very many unionist members of the s>disUnited Kingdom Government and most of the unionist members of the Holyrood Parliament.

    Not to also mention many, many on-line bloggers including many commenters on such as Labour Hame.

    If she won only 10% of the cases with absolute published proof in the public domain she and her family need never work again.

    Quite obviously those daft enough to claim, even today, that Mrs Thompson has been found Not Guilty, and I’ve read a few of those today, have defamed the woman because she cannot be found not guilty of criminal acts when she has never been charged with anything or probably not even cautioned.

  183. Robert Peffers

    BBC Headlines today defame Michele Thompsom.
    The BBC is claiming:-


    Michele Thompson has never been charged, and probably not even cautioned, there thus cannot be a case to be dropped.

    Let is hope Michele does a Rev Stu and sues the BEEB and others who make the same sort of claims.

  184. yesindyref2

    You’re right, it’s not new. In fact it was the main catalyst for me to support Independence for Scotland back in 1972. Someone pointed out to me the treatment Scotland got on the BBC and elsewhere, and though I hadn’t really noticed before apart from in sport of course, the moment it was pointed out I knew it was true, and it was just hours then for my support for Indy, something I’d never thought about before.

  185. Ian McCubbin

    Can we have all this series of too wee publsihed on twitter and face book repeatedly?
    Embarrass the unionists more and more.
    As for Royals and Ypres commemoration. War is heir doing let them pay for it.
    Hypocritical this was given such sympathetic coverage the day supreme court ruled out prosecution of Blair on aggression never mind war crimes.
    How many died because of him?

  186. Shinty

    How many died because of him? Indeed Ian.

    Nothing would please me more than seeing him being dragged through the courts, endlessly – sadly, that ain’t never going to happen.

    Wealth and power protect him all the way.

  187. Shinty

    whoops (ain’t ever)

  188. colin Alexander

    @ Scottie Dog: Re Independence with Monetary Union so we shared the Pound Sterling.

    From a business point of view it DID make sense.

    “With Westminster cooperation” was the big problem.

    It should have been obvious that if it required UK Govt cooperation to work, then Westminster and the Unionist UK parties would deliberately throw a spanner in the works.

    The YES campaign should have have said they do have prepared alternatives worked out, such as Scotland having its own currency pegged 1:1 to the Pound or free floating on the currency exchanges.( They had studied alternatives).

    Instead YES stuck with: “it’s our Pound too” which whilst true, did not make a convincing argument. I believe that’s why YES failed to get more than 50% of the votes.

  189. Shinty

    As far as I remember the indyref White Paper lay out several options on currency. Something the Yoons, MSM & BBC happened to ignore.

  190. Cactus

    Evening adventurers!

    Hey Petra & Ghillie x ~
    Do we have space for a number eight:


    “A form of intimidation or psychological abuse, sometimes called Ambient Abuse where false information is presented to the victim, making them doubt their own memory, perception and quite often, their sanity.

    The classic example of gaslighting is to switch something around on someone that you know they’re sure to notice, but then deny knowing anything about it, and to explain that they “must be imagining things” when they challenge these changes.”

    That SO makes sense regards the UK press, a bit like “the vow”.

    Set yourselves free!

    X always.

  191. stewartb

    Picking up on earlier comments about state schools in Scotland and the self-confidence of their students (“…. biggest failing of our states school system”), below are some extracts from the 2015 report: ‘Improving Schools in Scotland: an OECD Perspective’ (

    Page 13: “As many as 9 in 10 (school) inspections report improvement in confidence, engagement, staying on in school and national qualifications over the recent past, broadly coincident with the implementation of CfE (Curriculum for Excellence) in schools.”

    Page 55: “The (OECD) review team during its visits to schools found students to be confident, articulate, enthusiastic and proud of their schools and of their identity.”

    Page 56: “Most Scottish secondary students believe that school has helped to give them confidence and has taught them things useful in a job (85% and 90%, compared with OECD levels of 80% and 87%).

    Page 56: “Such relatively positive attitudes towards school have been a feature of Scotland since 2003 and indeed since that year the proportion of students reporting that school gives them confidence has increased significantly (from 80% to 85%).”

    Based on no empirical data, only ‘life experience’, I’m also pretty sure there is more determining a young person’s level of confidence at a particular stage in their life than the type of school they attend. And based on many encounters with young people who are state educated in Scotland, I would certainly not generalise.

    (I’m also a believer in trying to understand differences between ‘self-confidence’ and ‘self-esteem’.)

  192. Reluctant Nationalist

    @ Colin, re: “It’s our pound, too.”

    That was an extremely frustrating spectacle for me. Mark Carney’s statement on the matter must have made quite a few otherwise swithering minds up.

    Anyway, that’s in the past.

  193. Petra

    @ Cactus at 7:55pm … Gaslighting. Spot on Cactus! Explained so well by Vaknin in ‘Malignant Self Love.’ Now a wee bedtime story that’s not a fairytale even if it starts with ….. Once upon a …

    Once upon a time a beautiful, highly intelligent, charismatic girl known as Scotland was FORCED against her will to marry a nasty, controlling narcissist, known as England, by some of her more influential relatives. She didn’t want him, love him and he knew it. Promises were made in the lead up to the wedding to placate her such as England would respect her and treat her as an equal. Do so because they both came from equally noble families. However all promises were broken early on in the marriage especially when England went into extreme narcissistic subjugation mode by displaying the most aggressive and abject cruelty (the ultimate narcissistic strategy) towards some of her supportive relatives and friends at a place called Culloden. This was carried out to put the fear of death into her from the onset. Put her in her place. Show her who was boss.

    Over time attempts were made to destroy her core sense of identity by ridiculing her usage of language and dress code. He, England, would decide what language she’d use and what she’d wear and he went on to lay down the law and ban both for a time in fact. Over the years, in constant fear that she would leave him, he employed every narcissistic ploy in the book to weaken and demoralise her. More of her loyal followers were cleared out / shipped out of the country, he put her down at every turn by telling her she that was stupid, hopeless and ugly and that no one else would ever want her (not NATO or the EU). He also went to great lengths to rewrite her history by removing every positive memory that she had of herself such as being brave, inventive, innovative and kind. The ‘new version’ was repeated over and over again to her and others much further afield to destroy, shred, her very personality through belittling her. As time went on she became more and more confused in trying to hold onto what she thought was true versus what he and now many others were telling her. Was she right? Could so many others be wrong? At times she thought that she was going to go mad and as the very soul was being sucked out of her she found that she was losing all confidence and self-esteem.

    Now and then she would shake herself out of the stupor and rebel but as soon as she showed signs of leaving again all narcissistic strategies were employed, such as intimidation, threats and more than anything the big reminder that she couldn’t cope without him as she had no money of her own. He had held the purse strings from day one of the marriage and doled out money as and when it suited him. She had no access to their financial accounts and had no idea of how wealthy she was in her own right nor that he had hidden the fact that she had been bequeathed a great inheritance of hundreds of billions of pounds which he went on to squander. He did use some of her wealth however from day one, and throughout their marriage, to pay some of his friends to perpetuate the rewrite of her history, the lies and coverups and they were so effective that she finally succumbed to the long term consequences of living with a narcissist known as gaslighting.

    All is not lost however and this story will have a happy ending because this poor (sad) victim of gaslighting, Scotland, can and will emerge from the fog and make her escape and what better time to do so when her narcissistic husband, England, is at his lowest ebb through losing his narcissistic supply (UK electorate / EU countries / laughingstock of the world).

    Scotland will be as free as a bird once more but should keep in mind that even the official termination of the relationship, the divorce, with England is not the end of the affair as the ‘ex’ belongs to the narcissist (in their mind) and they are capable of responding to separation with rage, seething envy and vindictiveness due to a sense of humiliation and negated grandiosity (more so loss of cash cow). Bonny Scotland as she severs the ties that bind should therefore continue to watch her back.

  194. Ghillie

    PETRA!! THAT was a very scarey bed time story!!

    What about the bit where her very clever and brave fairy Godmother, the beautiful WingsoverScotland, gathers together the truth and shines her light on the lies and helps lovely Scotland find her way out of the maze of put downs and frees her to rekindle her old friendships and family ties = )

    Her trusty knights of the Holyrood ( well the ones she can trust anyway, not the carpy ones that have grown lazy and dazzled by empty promises of higher station down south ) fight tirlessly, night and day to keep the wolf from the door of her very own vunerable folk.

    Some traveled to her European neighbours, honouring them, speaking in their tongue and called on them to welcome her back into their fold.

    And the bravest of these loyal knights, known by the white rose in their lapel and by their diligence, journeyed to the deep south, to the very core of that cruel control, to hold its feet to the fire!

    I’m sure too there’s a bit about a cheery character who wanders the streets of the fair City of Glasgow, wearing a jaunty cowboy hat, singing out his love and admiration for the lovely Scotland.

    She can sometimes just pick up these sweet notes drifting to her on the breeze and as each day goes by and more voices pick up the song, Scotland hears it a little more clearly.

    Soon, very soon, she will find the strength to make good her escape = )

    Scotland, having such a kind and forgiving heart, will mibbee one day, find a way to show the good people of England that they do not have to live under this terrible tyrany either.

    And remember, Scotland is wise as she is beautiful, and will watch with care that she is never hurt like this again.

  195. Ghillie

    Cactus and Petra, ‘Gaslighting’ and ‘Institutionalisation’, together with your list of 6 tatics of abuse, Petra,

    Oh yes, that rings true.

    The abuse is very plain to see.

    And it can be very hard to get away from an abusive partner.

    At least we now know that there ARE other countries that have seen this, sometimes more clearly than we do, and support Scotland. Certainly question why we would want another country to run our affairs!!

    And more and more people in Scotland can see it too. And are speaking up for Scotland. High time!

    This may be a rocky road, but we ARE on our Road to Independence = )

  196. Petra

    @ Ghillie says at 6:03 am …. ”PETRA!! THAT was a very scarey bed time story!!”

    Ha, ha, ha! Yeah I actually gave myself nightmares last night, lol.

    But you’re right we’ve got our own fairy godmother Stuella and King Alex and the Knights of the roon table such as Sir Alynhad and Nicalot all focused on winning the Battle of Gaslighting and they are getting there. Predicted to win by March 2019 x

  197. Ghillie

    Petra 🙂 🙂 🙂

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