The knife-edgers
This was the revealing reaction of the Question Time audience and panel last night when right-wing Daily Mail/Times journalist Isabel Oakeshott and Labour peer Shami Chakrabarti debated who’d “won” the election:
On Thursday Jeremy Corbyn got 40% of the vote, 40% of the seats and lost by 2%.
In Scotland, Ruth Davidson got 28% of the vote, 22% of the seats and lost by 9%.
(Corbyn was also a thumping 33 points clear of the 3rd-place party in terms of vote share. Davidson’s margin over the party below was just 1.5 points.)
Yet the entire media, across both Scotland and the UK, has presented Davidson as the undisputed and triumphant victor, and nobody laughs.
But while it’s valuable to keep things in some sort of perspective, the SNP shouldn’t be too complacent about that reality. The defining characteristic of this election was closeness. After the tsunami of 2015, only one Scottish seat – Ian Murray’s – was won by a five-figure majority, and only 10 by more than 5000 votes. (See table below.)
Murray’s result in particular was enormously suspicious. The Tories should have been in very strong contention – having comfortably won the equivalent council seats just a month ago – but fielded a paper candidate, did no campaigning, and finished in third place, almost 17,000 votes behind Murray. The seat that had been Scotland’s most marginal on the day of the 2015 election was its safest barely two years later, even though Murray had spent most of that time bitterly attacking the Labour leader whose success revived the party.
Tactical voting, a spectacular failure in 2015, in fact worked amazingly well this time – there was not a single seat in Scotland where two Unionist parties took 1st and second places. In every seat, despite no public movement, Unionist voters somehow knew which candidates to vote for to have the best chance of getting the SNP out, as noted on Friday by one Aberdeen Evening Express reporter.
And that remained the case even when the answer seemed wildly counter-intuitive. The BBC’s exit poll, for example, had Gordon as a 51-49 race between the SNP and the Lib Dems. In fact the Tories came through from 21,000 votes behind in third place in 2015 and won the seat, with the Lib Dems almost 16,000 votes adrift in fourth.
The only rational explanation for that is that there must have been direct, nationwide, covert (but perfectly legal) collusion between the three Unionist parties at a high level. But the even more remarkable thing is that the election was still so finely balanced that the result could easily have been dramatically different in either direction.
Thanks to the magic of First Past The Post, just 3,385 extra votes across the whole of Scotland could have seen the SNP take 41 seats – nearly 70% of those available, compared to the 59.3% they actually won.
But on the other hand, a mere 3,504 extra Unionist votes could similarly have reduced the SNP’s cohort to just 24 seats – barely 40% of the total.
(And indeed, just 1,799 more votes would have given the SNP two-thirds of seats, while it would have taken only 619 to drop them below the majority threshold of 30.)
When you consider that the average single Scottish constituency in a Westminster election sees somewhere in the ballpark of 50,000 votes cast in it on the night, you begin to understand how incredibly fine those margins are. A spread of 6,889 votes – just 0.2% of the 2.65m cast on Thursday – covered a range between the SNP winning a crushing 70% or a disastrous 40% of the seats.
Now, it could be that this election marks the high-water mark of tactical voting. Labour supporters may be less willing to lend their voters to Tories next time, having seen the DUP-controlled UK government that has resulted and how close Jeremy Corbyn came to being able to pull together a progressive alliance that would have made him PM.
Similarly, Tory voters may be less likely to let the likes of Ian Murray have a free ride given that the seven seats Labour took in Scotland effectively cost Theresa May her majority – winning them all would have given her 325 UK seats, just enough for a sole administration (and more so when the vacant Sinn Fein seats are taken into account).
But the SNP’s blood will be running cold at the thought of what happens if Thursday’s pattern is repeated whenever the next election comes around – which could be very soon. And as we said in the wee small hours of Friday, they definitely can’t afford to count on getting a pro-independence majority in the next Scottish Parliament in 2021.
If another referendum is to happen in the next decade, the clock is very much ticking.
So red and blue tories are learning, with their trial run at tactical voting in 2015. Makes sense.
One things for sure, having won in 2014, they are just not going to allow indyref2 to ever happen. Just listen and watch BBC coverage, across the UK now. Tories have won in Scotland yesterday and that means no one in Scotland wants another referendum, they all explain, with straight faces.
Hi Stuart. I live in Murray’s constituency and I was kicking myself at not putting a bet on him winning after seeing the odds you posted at 8/13 earlier in the week. He fought a high profile campaign and the amount of support he had in the area judging by the hundreds of posters in windows was phenomenal. My Jim Eadie SNP posters looked embarrassing in the neighbourhood so I see why he had such a big majority unfortunately. He seems to be popular in leafy morningside f knows why.
True rev. We have now seen the rest if the UK turn into a binary choice between Tories and Labour. The next time people will realise a vote up here to stop the SNP may also serve to deny their party a chance of government over the UK.
We should broadcast that fact far and wide.
Decisions decisions. They cannot do it forever.
Ruth Davidson.
With that rictus grin and bouncy inflated sense of self reminds me of one of those person-shaped blow-up balloons.
Other ill-informed people, desperate for a little frivolity in their miserable lives, see that balloon, and think it’s a party.
It’s not very hard for Unionists to work out how to tactically vote when there are numerous articles in the MSM telling them actually how to do it. And do you know what – MSM is doing to do it for every election from now till the end of time or the disbanding of the SNP.
I read somewhere the the SNP’s coffers are fairly bare and they just couldn’t match the dark money funding Ruth’s No referendum party. Well now she has the DUP pulling her real party, the Tories, strings so she may be about to find out if you lie with dogs, you get fleas.
And how much is due to people being totally pissed off with politics? If the SNP go with ‘we are onlly having our ninth divisive vote in four years due to Englands inability to make its mind up’ at the next General Election in October, will people take the hint that its being in the UK that gives us grief?
People should expect to vote in a representative democracy and get peace for the next 4 / 5 years. Parliamentarians should get on with their day job and settle their differences. This isn’t happening; it shows our democracy is broken.
Ian Murray has never been in the slightest bit interested in anything other than Ian Murray, hence all the Corbyn hating, pandering to his Tory Morningside voters.
Red Tory Blue Tory no difference. The Tory voters can live with Davidson propping up May and the DUP. Pushing for EU conditions. Brexiteers. Suck it up. What a mess. Chaos.
Corbyn/Unionists voted through or abstained every austerity measure backing up the Tory. Brexit What a mess chaos. Benn advocated more bombing in Syria cheered on by the Tories. More terrorism. More human rights lost.
More people who support Independence should give support and vote. SNP Simple really. People who care. Thank goodness the SNP won. The Tories/Unionist lost.
So how did they manage to get the right information out to so many people in so many constituencies?
How did so many people know who to vote tactically for?
How did so many know that tactical voting was the game to be played?
The breakdown looks highly suspicious to me.
Its easy enough for parties and party members to work together but how do they get the voters to cooperate?
Great analysis, Rev. My blood is still cold from knowing the work and money spent on ousting Salmond, Robertson, Nicolson etc., and watching Wishart on such a close call.
None of this is just unfortunate or random.
Yet, some Indy activists are belligerent about tactics, like taking indyref2 off the table for now. Doesn’t mean it’s dropped, just hiding the stick used to beat us.
Only game now is to expose DUP. In Scotland, force the Unionist MPs to undertake what they will do for Scotland. Highlight EVEL, again.
I am still very depressed about where we are, it’s not good.
Another imminent election will see us in the same situation.
I would also be interested in the figures for reduction in SNP vote and whether “voter disengagement” was employed in social media messaging.
Once I’ve summoned up the energy I will check out voter tally for the West Kincardine and Aberdeenshire constituncy where a Tory unseated the SNP MP.
The Lib Dems, who traditionally held the seat, put up a paper candidate: young, unheard of, looked about 10 years old.
I feel a bit like the result in the 1974 General Election when we had 11 MP’s losing most of then when our vote collapsed at the 1979 and 1983 general elections, taking years to recover.
The situation for the SNP right now is extremely serious and another GE must be on the cards sooner or later this year. Playing the indyref2 card before Brexit is an absolute non-starter and almost a guaranteed vote loser.
The SNP leadership should have listened to the feedback from their branches or even consulted them before going for indyref2, and on hearing the adverse feedback from the doorstep, we might have played our cards very differently.
If the Tories elect a strong leader, it will put Corbyn on the back foot. Both Scottish Labour and Scottish Tories can claim with some justification that Scotland is better served at Westminster by having Scottish MP’s with influence from the party in government at Westminster.
It is not sensible to think that a Unionist party would want to work with a party that no longer wished to be part of the Union.
Some of our SNP MP’s have such a slender majority, the possibility of losing a lot more seats is very real. Time for an overhaul, a reality check with a dose of pragmatism. It’s a major storm, batten all hatches to stay afloat, we can resume our journey later.
Well the Tories won’t let Scotland have a referendum, and Labour don’t want Scotland to have a referendum, and as they, generally speaking, make up the Government in Westminster, one way or another, the only hope for Sturgeon, or whoever, to get the referendum is if somehow the SNP hold the balance of power for a Labour Government, and use it as a bargaining chip.
And who’s to say how many seats are needed for that.
Swami, that balloon is a party, alas.
Britain is holding on to its last colony. Full stop. That should mean a lot to people who have looked into any kind of history.
What N.Sturgeon and the SNP need to realise is that they should be campaigning on as blank a slate as possible – Scottish Independence THEN a choice on everything else, including the EU.
This would galvanise the other independence supporters that dont fall into the idealogical ‘left’ thinking.
By attaching the SNP to europe, the bleeding heart we-love-refugees-arent-we-such-great-people club, anti-russia rhetoric, pro clinton bias (one of the most obviously false politicians to ever exist), criticize a backwards religion and your racist (islamopohobia) she has really attached weights to the feet of the independence movement.
Whats happening in Europe now a LOT of smart people dont want to be a part of. I know, ive lived in europe for 7 years and seen whats happening, even though Im still basically in favour of the project.
Frankly the SNP have been pretty out of touch this time around and if they REALLY want Scotland to be its own self-governing nation they better drop the crap and focus on whats important.
Now I know thats a slap in the face to you ‘progressives’ out there who think that everything can be solved if we just forced equality of outcome (rather than equality of opportunity) down everyones throats, but its the truth.
Time to learn.
It’s just a carve up. Davidson, Dugdale and Rennie will have met, decided which ones to go for and thrown their resources at (for lib dems 5 seats). They’ve agreed to run paper campaigns in the other seats.
This will become clearer still once the spending is announced.
The only factor skewing it is Corbyn – slab were only campaigning in, what, 3 or 4 target seats.
The unionists knew exactly who to vote for in every seat because they had one party pushing in each seat.
Front page headline in Torygraph today – Ruth announces that Scots Tories will go their own way on policies. Ruth Davidson’s candidates indeed and the Ruth Davidson party.. Will be interested to learn how that goes down in middle England.
I hope everyone’s taking on board what Craig Murray’s saying today. This includes fair criticism and sound advice IMO
https://www.craigmurray.org.uk/archives/2017/06/snp-must-sell-radical-vision-not-just-managerial-competence/
What, if anything, do the results of GE17 tell us about the possible outcome of an INDYRef? Clearly the turnout was well shy of the last IndyRef but if the shift towards the tories was only in seats and did not represent a large mass of voters there is still ample margin for a YES vote in a new IndyRef. (?)
The Graun slams in really hard today, with their extreme UK rule forever in Scotland stuff. Its nice that Graun twerps are actually giving Scotia several of their best SNP bad’s but openly and famously gay toryboy David Torrance says, “A second Scottish referendum was a vote loser for the SNP. And if last night’s stunning results lead to a softer Brexit, the party will need a new raison d’être”
There wont be a soft Brexit, or everyone who wants out too, will want one.
So our £350 million a week EU passports have been ripped up under our noses for NO actual reason, or none that anyone that is not a believer in Nigel Farage, BBC, Murdoch, BoJO, Gove, Doc Nuttall can fathom. But now here come the DUP to the rescue, to save this farce union, and that lot are not exactly David Torrance’s besties at all.
Mayhem calls the DUP “union” party, so what’s the “union” party policy on gay marriage for example?
http://www.itv.com/news/utv/2016-10-27/dup-will-keep-blocking-same-sex-marriage-in-ni/
@Mike, 11.40
That’s quite easy. This is the age of election data, analytics and using it to target and influence. It costs money is all, and folk are already asking where and who are providing funds to Scottish Tories.
The funding is all done via several layers of groups, allies etc., structured in such a way as to hide how much money goes into the party, so there is no breach of limits.
It’s all laid out in investigation into the Leave campaign, and how the links are made.
We don’t live in a democracy, and the sooner folk come to terms with that, the better.
I suggest that we all keep in mind that whether or not there is Scottish independence will be determined by a future referendum.
De facto that referendum (however long or short a delay in its effect) will come about by the route of a majority vote in the Scottish Parliament. 56 out of 59 seats in Westminster would not achieve it but ,importantly, zero seats out of 59 cannot block it.
If the SNP is embroiled in another Westminster GE in the near future (fortunately I believe the Tories will stagger on for a few years given what has just happened) then there is a high risk that while a few seats may be regained from the Tories, many more could be lost to Labour because of pro independence supporters voting for Corbyn.
The SNP campaign for Westminster should simply state that every vote for the SNP IS for independence as I believe virtually all the SNP votes in GE 2017 were pro independence, but not all pro independence supporters voted SNP.
hHe SNP should fight the next GE election on an independence platform, but make it clear that only a majority vote in Holyrood for a referendum followed by winning a referendum will be considered as a mandate for independence.
Stuart you say Jeremy Corbyn could have been leading a progressive alliance in Westminster and indeed he could.
Sadly Labour was not prepared to support the Progressive Alliance movement and insisted on standing in every seat.
Tories will always win in a three horse race except on those rare occasions when they stand as house divided against itself.
Labour seem to regard it as a matter of principle to have all or nothing and so often achieve the latter.
BBC dragged out that old vampire, Michael Howard last night on Radio 4 10 o’clock ‘news’ programme and he reckons that Theresa May and David Davis negotiating Brexit IS the government. Boak!
I suggest that we all keep in mind that whether or not there is Scottish independence will be determined by a future referendum.
De facto that referendum (however long or short a delay in its effect) will come about by the route of a majority vote in the Scottish Parliament. 56 out of 59 seats in Westminster would not achieve it but ,importantly, zero seats out of 59 cannot block it.
If the SNP is embroiled in another Westminster GE in the near future (fortunately I believe the Tories will stagger on for a few years given what has just happened) then there is a high risk that while a few seats may be regained from the Tories, many more could be lost to Labour because of pro independence supporters voting for Corbyn.
The SNP campaign for Westminster should simply state that every vote for the SNP IS for independence as I believe virtually all the SNP votes in GE 2017 were pro independence, but not all pro independence supporters voted SNP.
The SNP should fight the next GE election on an independence platform, but make it clear that only a majority vote in Holyrood for a referendum followed by winning a referendum will be considered as a mandate for independence.
Posted this on the last thread, but it’s probably more relevant here.
At the end of the day, the real elephant in the room is the unionist media, Reporting Scotland and STV News. They went out of their way to promote tactical voting, highlighting key marginal seats, and telling the unionists voters what party they had to vote for in specific seats to ensure their combined vote could overcome the SNP. And it clearly worked.
Scotland’s politically corrupt unionist media has now changed how unionist voters will vote in future elections. Basically, with the help of the media, every election in Scotland will be fought tactically on Independence, rather than party political policies and local issues. It will be the Independence vote against the unionist vote, rather than party versus party.
Unfortunately, until the SNP can address the politically corrupt and biased Scottish media, they will always be on the back foot, and regaining Scotland independence will always be difficult.
David, I think you’ve hit the nail on the head. The EU referendum has been our Achilles heel definitely. Like it or not there are a lot of yes voters who voted leave and dare I say it are anti immigration. With Nicola being pro eu and pro immigration it’s lost us loads of votes. Factor in the corbyn effect and that’s why Thursday was a poor day. The EU question needs to be addressed after the Indy vote (if we can recover) let the public have a choice. Sorry it’s hard not to be pessimistic right now but the party needs to take a hard look at itself. It wasn’t a good campaign and seemed disjointed.
SNP’s coffers are fairly bare
they always have been, SNP has always relied on people spending countless hours on the streets to get our message over
we could only ever dream of spending the amounts below on social media.
In the 2015 general election the Conservatives spent £1.2m on Facebook advertising, nearly 10 times what Labour spent. However, Labour had said it would spend £1m on Facebook adverts for this year’s election.
Our branch gained over 800 new members after independence vote and their fees do help, however out of that 800 approx 4 of them come out to help leaflet, the rest of our leafleters are all prior members
what I wouldn’t give for those 800 to do 1 hour each to help us
I am a computer programmer and I am thinking of building a map app to allow users to select a street or 2 to leaflet for us
But in the end if they don’t help then I fear the dream of independence and the SNP are doomed.
As you can see it only takes a very small amount of lost voters to slash seat numbers, so it is very very possible to bring to us being in the ascendancy.
Ruth must be enjoying her moment in the Sun.
Sky news now reporting her denying she is setting up her own party. I’m sure her phone is red hot, as the London Tories phone her for prices for support.
Of course May will go, the vultures are circling now, so I’m giving it a week. Tories love nothing more than a bloodfest, after feeling sore from the electorate.
Mays two famed private aides, one of whom is Scottish, they scream, have been abused on the street, for their role in the fiasco.
Going into the 2014 referendum, many will remember, we warned, get out, because we will have BoJo and Farage in charge.
We were roundly and loudly mocked.
Further to the single unionist candidate in each seat. The labour candidate standing in Ochil was a complete no hoper, well known for her council “work” and basically a paper only candidate. A Tory MP in this seat will have my mother in law, a staunch real labour, turned SNP supporter, spinning in her grave..
Valerie
I don’t dispute anything you’ve said but I still cant see the link between how the parties organise tactical voting and how they get the voters to cooperate.
They would have to put the information through everybodies door. I for one didn’t see any party telling me to vote for any other candidate than there own.
Something different happened in Scotland relative to the rest of the UK and I cant quite see what it was.
First past the post is ridiculously undemocratic and open to manipulation. It needs to be got rid of across whole of UK.
Why do we even bother sending our top talent, or any for that matter, to Westminster? Bring them all home and put the focus on Holyrood and Scotland. Let’s completely destroy London’s agents, the Unionist failures who all crept in through the back door and who keep gatecrashing the party.
Now would be the perfect time to get some of our top talent into Holyrood, talent such as Tazmina, Alex and Angus then get the rest of them in after withdrawing from that Westminster cesspit on the grounds that we refuse to associate ourselves with any house controlled by racists, bigots and terrorist criminal murderers.
I doubt we will ever have a better opportunity to expose Westminster for what it truly is and focus the worlds eyes on it.
LET’S SEND MAYHEM A MESSAGE – NOW IS THE TIME!
The union played a blinder. Reading some comments from earlier threads focused my thoughts.
Jeremy will not sack Kez as this was an orchestrated attack from UK labour.
Whilst he was in Glasgow campaigning for the ‘socialist’ vote she was in Edinburgh shoring up the unionists.This campaign was organised at UK level
I was totally pissed off reading Cat what’s herface, Gerry H.etc banging on about SNP failed cos they weren’t radical enough despite the fact Corbyn manifesto was a rip off of SNP.
I’m really not sure if these folk are stupid or just blind.
Make no mistake we are up against the most corrupt establishment in the world.
What might destroy them is the DUP, more useful unionist fools
Unbelievable that SLab won’t work with SNP to ensure a Corbyn victory in UK and keep the Tories out. Kez Dugdale does actually prefer Scotland in a tory/DUP run UK to anything that might lead to independence. I mean, what’s the point? What’s she thinking? Does her “solidarity” with UK mean that If England suffers Scotland must suffer too? Unbelievable.
Lol. Unionist tactical voting lead by the Scottish media actually helped give Mayhem the opportunity to form a Tory Government. I’m sure Jeremy Corbyn would like to thank Kezza for her constructive help.
It doesn’t happen often, but my favourite online blogger, Stuart Campbell is WRONG!
Just a little bit wrong, but it is particularly important.
With the greatest of respect, and with some wonderful delight, Stu., you are modestly missing something in one of the premises of your article….
Yet the entire media, across both Scotland and the UK, has presented Davidson as the undisputed and triumphant victor, and nobody laughs.
It is an undeniable fact that the lying, disreputable UK newspaper industry is dying.
Whilst the television media is also in decline. The BBC, especially in Scotland is discredited and becoming less trusted by their core demographic.
My point?
The entire media across Scotland MUST now include websites such as Wings Over Scotland, Bella Caledonia, Indyposterboy, Scotgoespop, Wee Ginger Dug etc.,
What would make me very happy is if, over the next few weeks, the fine, forensic mind of Stuart Campbell did a post mortem of the percentages of what now constitutes the “entire media across Scotland”. Methinks that it would be an eye opener. Indeed my bet would be that if a direction of travel were studied for old MSM versus online media, the best is yet to come. By that I mean the liars in dead trees become mulched and the electronic news outlets such as WoS are very much in the ascendant 🙂
Please keep up the good work Mr Campbell. With a very tight ship of 1 or 2 contributers you are every bit the match of most regional newspapers with staff numbers of 100+.
Best.
Al.
Footsoldier says:
10 June, 2017 at 11:45 am
……. Playing the indyref2 card before Brexit is an absolute non-starter and almost a guaranteed vote loser.”
Sorry Footsoldier, but I must categorically disagree with you there.
If we are not actually independent, or running up the dreel which makes us independent BEFORE Brexit, then Scotland is bounced out of Europe, stands alone at the mercy of Westminster and the BBC, and even if we rally our resources into good order, we have before us the massive task of securing freedom of action to act independently of Westminster’s wishes, persuade our anxious and fearful public that yet another constitutional debate needs to happen, secure our political Independence, and then start to lobby for eventually re-joining the EU.
We can forget all the EU dialogue of interim “holding pen” status. Our place in Europe is no longer a short term possibility, and if we inherit any of the clusterf*#k madness of UK economics beyond Brexit, then our Scottish economy might find the broad convergence we currently enjoy with Europe to be something we find it acutely difficult to maintain.
It is absolutely vital that Scotland remains in Europe. We cannot afford to exit Europe, because economic convergence with Europe will sink like a stone once Brexit is a reality.
This is not the time to put ScotRef into its box and on the shelf, the case must be made and must be won, and won BEFORE the Brexit bullet to the head is fired.
It is too late to care about losing votes. Supposing we have to put at risk the chance of an SNP government for 20 years, it is worth it for the chance of Scotland to secure its Independence and remain a European nation.
It is sheer madness to concede ANYTHING to Unionism when it is our reluctant place in the damned Union which has brought our economy to the cliff edge of this colossal act of economic self harm. If we cannot make the Independence argument stick now, then what must the Unionists do to us to make us declare enough is enough?
Couple of my colleagues yesterday were coming out with the propaganda. I like that Ruth, Oh if you lost the next referendum you’d find something else to moan about, it is divisive. These ppl are not avid followers of politics but the message has got through to them. One of them voted Labour in Edinburgh South ‘to stop the SNP’ (usually Tory). I’m made to feel like what I believe in is something so unique in the world that it needs ridiculed. Need to remain courteous when discussing politics with these people. Lastly, out of the three of us I’m the only one born in Scotland. Suspect this is the main reason they don’t want to see the break up of UK and use the propaganda to prop this up.
Despite all the propaganda. The SNP is in a strong position to stand up for Scotland. They hold the balance of power at Westminster. Good position.
The usual Unionist duplicity. One policy south of the border and a different policy in Scotland. All funded from London and other questionable sources.
There was a EU Ref in Scotland. The result 62% to 38% Remain. The majority voted to stay in the EU. Why would a political Party support a policy the majority do not want and destroy the economy. Nicola even said she was willing to negotiate about full membership. That the majority support.
The Tories mess continuing in Westminster will increase the Independence support. If the Polls can be believed?
@Footsoldier
You make the mistake of thinking the SNP are the only show in in Yestown. It may have slipped your mind but you relied on the Greens to get the Section 30 request bill through.
If you lot in the SNP are too feart to fight for Indy we will just have to give our votes to another Yes vehicle.
The SNP are not the only Indy fruit and there are lots of us who will and do happily vote for other Yes parties. The point of the SNP is supposed to be independence. They won 60% of the seats in Scotland and by far the most votes.
If that is not enough then we need a different vehicle.
In reality, because of where we now are with tactical voting aided by the unionist Scottish media, it means that from now on, when it comes to UK General elections, the most seats the SNP can expect to win would be roughly half of them, that is, around 30 seats.
The Unionists made this election about one policy – an independence referendum. The election leaflets had nothing else on them.
They lost. The SNP has more seats than all the “No Referendum” parties combined.
That’s democracy. No matter how the MSM try to present it, this is a complete vindication of the SNP’s policy and rejection of Unionism.
from the groan:
“The DUP wants no extension to Northern Ireland’s limitations on terminations, which restrict the procedure to when a woman’s life is at risk or there is a permanent or serious risk to her mental or physical health.
As it stands, fatal foetal abnormalities, rape and incest are not grounds for an abortion.”
There you go, women of 21st century Britain, rape and incest no risk to your mental health.
#tOOry balloon party policy.
So 2.6m voted in Scotland and the SNP got I believe over 900,000 votes witch is roughly a 1/3 of the total. Does that mean that these numbers would be representative in an independence vote?
I can’t agree, Stu, with your Friday proposition that the SNP should pursue indyref2 with urgency. ‘Referendum’ and ‘independence’ are, at the moment, words which help the unionists. The desire for indyref2 has to come from a groundswell of public opinion, to which the SNP responds when it’s obvious that it has to happen. It might have been easier after a solid Tory victory and a hard Brexit made the prospects for Scotland utterly intolerable, but the chaos now unfolding, with the deep chasm between left and right in England, may well bring people in Scotland to the same conclusion.
The situation is uncertain, but on the positive side we must recognise that it was always going to be the case that, the closer we get to independence, the fiercer and more coordinated the opposition. We have about 40% of the electorate, at least, who want independence, and in the SNP more active members and supporters than all the unionist parties together. We renew efforts: we keep up the activity: agitate, harass, argue, donate, leaflet, canvass, rally etc for as long as it takes.
I’ve been saying this for ages. The real problem we have in Scotland is that we have one opposition party pretending to be three separate parties. It’s dishonest, but as Stu notes, perfectly legal. I honestly don’t know how you can develop an election strategy to combat it.
So Roothie-babes is effectively signalling to May that her Scots Tories won’t support her if she goes into a deal with the DUP.
Suck it up, Ruth. You courted the worst elements of sectarianism, the blood brothers of the DUP, right here in Scotland to back you. You reap what you sow.
Slow hand clap for the Slab and SLib enablers. Hope you’re all ecstatic at being ruled by a party that makes UKIP look almost saintly.
Vote Unionist – Get Bampots.
I watched bits of question time last night,
I did catch the part when Dimbleby quoted Theresa
May’s 2015 quote about a coalition of chaos.
And he asked Graying to explain why a Tory coalition
With the DUP wasn’t a coalition of chaos.
As for there being a possible collusion between the unionist parties nothing would surprise me about that
The LibDems have been absolutely open about focusing their campaigning on 5 target seats (Christine Jardine and Alex Cole-Hamilton have both stated this on the BBC since the election).
Nothing wrong with that in itself.
But for them to win 4 seats on 6.8% of the vote across Scotland in a first past the post election seems vanishingly unlikely, without some sort of ‘agreement’ with the other unionist parties.
If such an agreement does exist, its participants will no doubt have been too clever to leave any electronic trail of communication.
But I wonder if any conversations might have been recorded?
Nicola Sturgeon, during questioning after her Bute House speech, referred to the fact that people in Scotland often vote differently in UK wide elections compared to our Holyrood election and that people returned to that this time after the 2015 56 MPs result.
She appeared to think it was quite normal that SNP don’t do as well in UK elections as they do in Holyrood. She gave no detail why this was the case.
It really perplexes me.
Has this been covered on Wings already?
When the Euro went down. The fishing industry lost it’s markets. Less customers. They were really struggling. Having to destroy catches etc. Some processing plants were in danger of shutting down. The Scottish Gov help had to give financial help. Same as the farmers. Often have EU Grants etc. Brexit will have a worse effect. Losing EU customers. Losing markets. Losing migrant workers. The NE fish market is being extended with EU funds. Negotiation on using bigger nets have increased quotas. If there are alternative jobs, young people will not go into fishing. Hard dangerous conditions.
The Home Counties Unionist minister fishing/farming representation will be useless. The Tories even took the extra CAP payments given to Scottish farmers. Gave it to wealthy farmers down south.
Not just tactical voting played a major role but targeting specific constituencies. The SNP had 56 seats to defend whereas the other parties could pour all their HQ and local area resources into the most likely seat in any region (Borders and North East excepted in case of Tories).
The Corbyn bounce is what unexpectedly won Labour seats albeit some by very slim margins and SNP may have taken some of them for granted.
Tories just regained their rural heartlands and failed to gain a single seat in Dundee, Edinburgh or Glasgow.
@One_Scot and many, many others over months and years – MEDIA BIAS is the causal problem [not really the SNP campaign IMHO].
I’ve been away for a few days [back to vote Thursday] so may have missed this information from Inform Scotland being shared already – they have set up a company and are calling for senior writers and campaigners to work to tackle BBC bias. Wingers include many such so if you’ve not been in touch, now is the time, to coin a phrase!
I saw this request in a comment from Cadogan Enright on G A Ponsonby’s article “Ruth and BBC Scotland – The real coalition” on June 9th [indyref2.scot]. {Sorry for not doing a real link but not had time to practise – been away, family probs.}
It’s been said here often that we need a radio station and TV channel. Surely the former is relatively easy technically and not expensive so could happen soon.
We surely also need Scottish Government to unilaterally set up a broadcasting authority?.
Problems here are clear – it will be trumpeted as a “SNP radio/tv” and denounced.
But look at the alternative – all the press owned outside Scotland and all of it horrendously biased. The BBC in permanent propaganda mode. STV not blameless and Borders covering both sides of the border so not giving a Scottish perspective.
Please God we can get the funds and effort to achieve unbiased reporting in Scotland. There’s a 40 million diaspora around the world and we know they’re not all skint!
from the groan:
“The DUP wants no extension to Northern Ireland’s limitations on terminations, which restrict the procedure to when a woman’s life is at risk or there is a permanent or serious risk to her mental or physical health.
As it stands, fatal foetal abnormalities, r@pe and incest are not grounds for an abortion.”
There you go, women of 21st century Britain, r@pe and incest no risk to your mental health.
#tOOry balloon party policy.
“. Like it or not there are a lot of yes voters who voted leave and dare I say it are anti immigration. With Nicola being pro eu and pro immigration it’s lost us loads of votes.”
If the SNP abandons core platforms of the EU and immigration, then what else is left? Might as well just vote Tory and be done with it.
Sad thing is the Tory MP’s will be just fodder for the party and be of no use to their consituenceies. what will they do when the fishing industry will be screwed.
Davidson might fancy herself a queen-maker and receive ‘assurances’ but queens’ heads can roll.
They really are the Borg. They’re adapting after each election to get the result they want at the next.
Hopefully resistance isn’t futile. With what seems to be an inexhaustible supply of funds and now a successful (in their terms) result of their collaborative efforts, they will, leading up to GE172 be hoping to apply the same strategy and tactics again.
This has so little to do with the SNP’s efforts and will continue to be the case. The back to back msm coverage of this, setting the narrative of ‘failure’ on the SNP’s part whilst deftly avoiding the scrutiny that the Rev is applying here, is, as others are pointing out the real problem.
Perception is evething in politics, quite simply put, the Unionist narrative is winning. The results merely provide false ‘headline’ fodder as ‘proof’.
As long as they have ‘air cover’ for their dirty tricks and the general population remains gullible and open to being manipulated, then, it’s going to continue at a pace.
*sighs*
Davidson is not really trying to set up her own party as currently speculated (you don’t do that if you hope to be PM someday, which she does). It is just a smokescreen for her continued pretence that the Tories in Scotland are not as nasty as Tories down South, whereas in fact many are a lot worse being of the Loyalist OO tendency.
Most of the massive swings to the Tory MPs in the North East relate to the belief that exiting the EU will return control of fishing back to the pre EEC days.
Just part of the ongoing theme of Scottish naivety, I am afraid. The fishing industry is officially low priority for the Brexit negotiations and most, perhaps all,of the advantages to the fishing industry will be traded away, just like Heath did to gain other advantages which the Tories care more about.
Ruth will simply order her Scottish Tory MPs to vote against this betrayal to absolutely ZERO effect but enable her to roar about how her Tories have stood up for Scotland (to ZERO effect, of course).
If that is not enough then we need a different vehicle.
Away you go Muscleguy. If it wasn’t for the SNP and the extraordinary grit and commitment of thousands of people like Alex Salmond, there wouldn’t even be a Holyrood Scots gov.
Keep that in mind when you’re out looking for your new vehicle.
@Panda Paws 11.21
If you lie with dogs expect fleas.
I prefer, if you lie with a whore don’t be surprised if you wake up with the clap.
Perhaps its time for the wider Indy movement to step up to the plate. Let the SNP govern Scotland for the benefit of Scots, all Scots, and let us gear up the Indy campaign as a true apolitical grass roots movement.
If we want Indy we are bloody well going to have take the gloves off and come out scrapping.
A bit O/T but concerning broadcasting
Watching M Portillo in Italy visiting Genoa, showing a magnificent port. I cruised the Mediterranean last year and was stunned by facilities in each port city we visited.
Scotland has none of these facilities and never will if people don’t see what we could have had if we hadn’t deliberately started if investment for half a century.
The populace must be bombarded with truth, enough UK lies, the truth is out there, use it at every turn, and if it is misrepresented or misreported in the MSM,give them both barrels every time it happens.
Remember the wee spider too,the war isn’t lost, only a set back
In the Independence Ref vote. 1Million voted for YES 1.4Million voted N0. On a 85% turnout. Including 16/17 year olds.
2.6million? voted in the GE. Looks a bit high. Lower turnout %? No 16/17 year olds.
SNP vote share 37%? Does not represent all 45%+ Indy supporters. On lower GE turnout and no 16/17 year old. If more Indy supporters had voted SNP. The SNP would have got a higher majority. According to Stu just a few thousand more would have done it. 40 MPs.
56 all the time would have been quite difficult to achieve. The SNP still won. In a good position to stand up for Scotland. In a hung Parliament.
“Unionist voters somehow knew which candidates to vote for to have the best chance of getting the SNP out”
Was saying much the same on the last thread. No doubt in my mind there was very organised collusion amongst the unionists. I doubt very much it was just local groups organising it. I think the british establishment was the organiser ably abetted by the bbc and ‘Scottish’ media.
Graun’s UKOK tory tubthumper David Torrance says “Nicola Sturgeon’s independence dream is now further away than ever,” but what are the people who now have much more power and control over Scotland, than any Scottish voter, actually all about?
http://www.belfasttelegraph.co.uk/news/northern-ireland/iris-robinson-gays-are-more-vile-than-child-abusers-28529856.html
unionist tactics were “indyref2, no the now” this worked. odd really since we werent calling for indyref2 now, but in 12 months time when we know what brexit actually means.
we just had an election, where the main issue, brexit, was completely ignored by everyone, we are none the wiser about brexit today than we were 2 months ago!
snp vote share went down 1.5%, big deal, and we lost a few mps, so what? tactical voting was always going to do this, we knew that before the election.
stuart was right in his last post where he said, relax, have a beer and watch brexit now unfold.
everyone will know exactly what brexit means in the coming months, even the unionist media wont be able to avoid reporting it.
support for yes is linked to how bad brexit is, in 4 months, we will see a majority scrambling for indyref2.
so chill out, have a beer and watch the football.
The unionists have no problems working together. They also have the massed media and dark money to funnel into holding us hostage to the UK. Yet the Yes side consistently refuses to be anything other than ‘nice’. I don’t see any politician aggressively calling out lies on tv. I don’t see any calling out specific media outlets or reporters. No wonder people thing what they are peddling is true. The unionists all OPENLY colluded to oust the SNP. It is very much time that all the pro yes groups got together and OVERTLY worked as one for the greater good. Unionist collusion needs to be used as a stick to beat them with, in every forum at every opportunity. Be it to labour supporters in the pub or MPs and MSPs in public. Our democracy is being made a mockery of for the ‘union’.
The political parties need to find a way to engage with folk to get input into what’s going on ‘at grassroots’. I never saw a SINGLE campaigner. Not one. Nor did I for the council or the Scottish elections. NOT A SINGLE ONE. Of any hue. I’m not particularly remote. We are missing out on engagement.
Does any one have the stats for voter numbers with a breakdown of postal votes and return percentages. I ask because there is a very obvious jump in Tory voting levels here that looks very suspicious ( other unionist party votes are pretty much the same).
It’s time the YES movement organised itself better, organised funding streams and got a lot more aggressive in defending facts and calling out lies.
And the SNP needs to get a LOT more aggressive with the press and media BS. They have to stop letting them land blows without reaction or refute. When they are being shown disrespect on tv they have to OPENLY and immediately call it out tothe person doing it and start saying they won’t participate if they are openly disrespected. And it’s time to aggressively challenge Ruth Davidson – she crumbles very easily under scrutiny so WHY is she not under constant scrutiny? They let her away with far too much nonsense. It’s time to harden up a bit or it will be too late.
@X sticks 1.07
Aye, has Crosby’s hands all over it. They took their eye off the ball in England though and it has bitten their earses.
DUP ffs!
… and Carmichael getting back in. Honestly, I despair.
BBC r4 vote tory lunchtime news, massive Scottish tory victory for 3 decades. Ruth D hero of planet toryboy, expressing something about the DUP, who are now in charge of Scotland. Ruth’s not exactly clear about the DUP but beeb gimpery along lines of “Ruth Davidson demands Theresa May presses DUP on LGBT rights.” No idea what “presses” means but DUP are more than clear.
From that Belfast Telegraph thing,
“Mrs Robinson’s comments were made two weeks after she sparked serious controversy when she said that homosexuals should seek psychiatric counselling.
She told a radio show that with help, gay people could be “turned around”.
A few days later she denied she ever indicated homosexuality was a mental health issue but repeated her view that homosexuality is an abomination. She came under fire again on Thursday when she stated that it was the government’s job to enforce God’s law
Iris Robinson to Parliament
“We all agree that few issues arouse as much interest or concern in the community as that of sex offenders. The sentences served and their subsequent placement back in the community cause considerable disquiet among the public.
There can be no viler act, apart from homosexuality and sodomy, than sexually abusing innocent children. There must be sufficient confidence that the community has the best possible protection against such perverts and it is important that there be a mature public debate on the issues, but the security of our citizens must be our overriding priority.”
So we lost seats, and so e excellent politicians will now be back in Scotland.
We did not lose. I am not the most optimistic person on the planet, but really let’s keep a sense of perpsective. We still beat the freaking unionists in Scotland! Edinburgh does not have one Tory MP!
That is a positive imo and must stick in the craw of untRuth. Even if we had ‘lost’ one seat to a Tory they would still report her as being the ‘winner’.
I am not going to beat up the SNP for their campaign, they had little time, very little funding, and had, again, 100% of the media against them. The state run media are to blame if we want to blame anyone for seats going to unionists.
Nicola Sturgeon must not feel defeated and definitely should in no way allow the media to portray this GE as a defeat for the SNP. Tell them how well we did Nicola. The unionists steered debate and steered the campaign, the SNP were forced to defend their performance at the Scottish parliament, even though this was a General Election and the issues and policies of the yoon parties should have been central to any debates! They were not.
I am sure that our excellent politicians now back in Scotland will be very keen to get to work in Scotland for Scotland, in whatever capacity.
Let’s refrain from knocking the SNP, they did what they could. It is absolutely priven that if you are negative about someones efforts, they will be less successful in their acheiving what they are capable of. Same goes for our country, Scotland did not lose. It lost much under the union for over 300+ years and was told you are useless, while the unionists stole resources, and cleared out the people.
Just one thing regards immigration, Scotland as we know does not have control over that. We are losing good people, because the tories are removing them from Scotland.
Scotland needs people to come here, if we had control over immigration, we could decide who and when.
At present, we have no choice, and no system for ensuring we attract the people that we need. The media do a very good job in making out that we will be flooded with terrorists or that all people who come here are somehow takers and lazy. That scares some people. ‘I am not racist, but…’ I hear that quite a lot.
one point on craig murrays blog,
the snp now have time to produce and launch a new white paper on independence, “re scotlands future2”
this should be ready to launch the second treeza walks out of the brexit negs in september and the uk defaults to no deal/hard brexit/ WTO rules
it should state that a yes vote in indyref2 would mean automatic application for an indy scotland to the single market via EFTA/EEA membership.
as the effects of leaving the single market begin to become apparent, support for yes will increase
EU membership to be put to a plebicite once scotland has left the the uk
Hi Sarah at 12:49 pm.
You typed,
“I’ve been away for a few days [back to vote Thursday] so may have missed this information from Inform Scotland being shared already – they have set up a company and are calling for senior writers and campaigners to work to tackle BBC bias. Wingers include many such so if you’ve not been in touch, now is the time, to coin a phrase!
I saw this request in a comment from Cadogan Enright on G A Ponsonby’s article “Ruth and BBC Scotland – The real coalition” on June 9th [indyref2.scot]. {Sorry for not doing a real link but not had time to practise – been away, family probs.}”
Here’s the link to Cadogan’s comment:-
http://indyref2.scot/ruth-and-bbc-scotland-the-real-coalition#comment-55170
And here’s the link to their web site:-
https://informscotland.com/
Don’t forget the Libdems. Lots of their voters seem to have ‘switched to tory’ in the NE, thus robbing their own party of being part of the government.
What’s that german word?
It is a message that needs to be put out.
@Mike
No, putting bumpf through your letterbox is for poor parties like SNP.
If you have a digital presence, and on the electoral register, you are a potential target. Everyone, bar politically aware, and we are a small number, are open to subliminal influence.
Dark ads via social media, your browser, your emails, are all ways of communicating, and its proven to work.
If you watched the election count, you would have seen lots of young Tory supporters too, jeering etc. The Tories are not old fashioned anymore.
Those Tory seats are bought and sold with English gold. There is no way their members paid for this campaign.
Oh, the first two human sacrifices have been made.
Her two aides, I mentioned above, are sacked.
May hopes that blood will buy her time. I’m sticking with my one week max prediction that May will be taken down.
Ken500 says:
In the Independence Ref vote. 1Million voted for YES 1.4Million voted N0. On a 85% turnout. Including 16/17 year olds.
???
In the Independence Ref vote. 1.6 Million voted for YES 2 Million voted N0. On a 85% turnout. Including 16/17 year olds.
The SNP won 60% of the seats with nothing like the resources available to The Tories and Labour.
Labour adopted many of the SNP policies and so arguably traditional, yet pro Indy Labour voters, gave their votes to Labour.Lets see how they attempt to exercise these new fresh policies at Westminster.
The young teenagers weren’t eligible to vote, unfair in my view.
Just wait until the reality of Brexit hits the consciousness of those ” I’m not interested in politics” types.
“if you persist in constantly interrupting me this interview is over” should be the response to the BBC and STV. Maybe go further and just refuse their invitations as they clearly hostile to the independence movement, and that’s circa 50% of the voting population.
There was clear evidence here in NE Fife that the LDs were throwing the kitchen sink at the election. It will be interesting to see their expenses returns. But the Tories campaigned hard too. Indeed I was stopped twice in South St in St Andrews last Saturday by ‘burly men’ who wouldn’t let me pass without trying to secure my vote for Theresa May. ‘You must be joking’ was one of my politer responses. We also had many Conservative leaflet drops. The main reason we still have a SNP MP, and by the most fragile of margins, is that they (LD and Tories) split the unionist vote. Needless to say the next election will be particularly intensely fought here.
It remains the case that Nicola Sturgeon is an excellent FM. I hope she has a bit of a breather now and comes back refreshed for the next round. The DUP are a seriously unpleasant group, and will ensure that the Conservatives regain their ‘nasty party’ epithet. That at least should make the SNP’s work easier. And we will see if Corbyn’s popularity survives the backstabbing within his party. It also needs to be much clearer that so many of the problems in Scotland are directly attributable to decisions made at Westminster.
It’s worse than we think re DUP.
‘The prime minister has sent a team of officials, led by her chief whip, Gavin Williamson, to Belfast to negotiate the details of an alliance with the DUP.
“A coalition would be much better than a looser alliance”, one senior minister said. “We don’t want the DUP demanding money for this or that project they fancy every time we need them to support us in a vote. That would be deeply unstable.” *
*my bold
This is seriously fucked up, we are talking ‘coalition’ here.
https://mobile.twitter.com/Peston/status/873504424215416837
The National carries some reflections from SNP MPs and MSPs. Some of it concurs with what Footsoldier said on here yesterday and what I was saying – Folk, even SNP voters, are sick fed up with talk of another independence referendum. The fanatics, us, the twitter regulars, the conference and manifesto launch attenders are not the issue. It’s Mr and Mrs Joe Public, who just want a bit of peace and to be left to get on with their lives for a bit. The soft Yessers and Noers, folk who may well vote for independence but only if the time is right.
The “it’s not Now, it’s after Brexit” misses a key point. The last time the campaign went on for an interminable two and a half years. The next campaign won’t be as long but it could start very soon. It will sicken more and more folk and just turn them off independence. Many are savvy enough to know that the early years of independence could be tough but in 2014 they voted Yes because they felt in their heart that this was best for Scotland but it’s only the very committed that want to do it all again soon and go through all the upheavel.
The ones who continue to get their news from the BBC, sympathetic to Yes, can’t be relied on to vote Yes again. Some deluded Yessers say no one goes from Yes to No. Bollocks. Take your head out of the sand. If folk can go from voting SNP in 2015 to voting Tory just two years later they can switch to No.
We have a hell of a job on our hands now and I’m not sure what the answer is. Some lazy ones need a kick up the arse. If there is another election this year they must get out to vote and we must hope the many who leant Corbyn their vote have been suitably horrified at the agenda pursued by the media and opponents to independence (didn’t really need that “media and”) to realise that until indy we have to get firmly behind the SNP in EVERY SINGLE ELECTION.
tOOry Coalition of Cruelty.
Womb Wars.
Davidson and now May have introduced or rather re-introduced the shade of Protestant sectarianism into Scottish and British politics. Unionism is ideologically anti-Catholic. Indeed if one accepts the non-Catholic historian Linda Colley’s history of the Britons it was the cement binding England and Scotland. The latter being in England’s view ‘soft’ and consequently presenting a danger on the northern border and from that grew the 1707 annexation.
Scotland has a sorrowful history in this area. Catholic voices say it’s gone underground but not gone away. Unionism is a social evil, not just politically toxic. Under the guise of Rangers supporters clubs it gets under the radar. Just lads having a banter etc. Union flag waving now looks less innocent within this new political context.
I can say with pride I do my bit a previous letter made exactly the correct point we have plenty of members but most contribute shoe leather wise nothing.We have of 140 members approx about 7 who actually do anything.My knees are done in there are only so many stairs you can climb before your body gives up on you.
The difference is as always we have the activists and door chappers but other parties don’t even bother because they don’t have to the BBC fought this election for them from the comfort of the big chair .
Anne@1.29
Absolutely, well said Anne. Who is going to be happy with the DUP propping up the UKgov, hopefully very few voters. Those who voted for Labour, or Tory, surely must be a tad concerned at how this has turned out so far, and be thinking this is not what we voted for at all. The DUP ffs!
What Craig Murray says times 100 to the power of a googolplex times ten.
Seriously, every word I wholly agree with. I just hope the SNP leadership read it, because he is bang on the money. I find it laughable that some odd folks here and there in the SNP still talk wistfully of how the best time for a referendum is 2022 or something, i.e after the next Holyrood election, completely missing the fact that A, Politics have moved on, and B. Their is absolutely no guarantee of an SNP Government.
From the Craig Murray piece;
“Sturgeon hotly denied she wanted to talk about Independence at all, saying only the Unionists kept bringing it up. It was a clever debating society point, but by refusing to make the case for Independence – and by appearing to concede it was a difficult area for her – Sturgeon was damaging the Independence cause and ultimately the SNP.”
And;
“Sturgeon did refer to all of these policy areas. But her entire dialogue was framed around how they should be tackled within a devolution settlement. Independence was almost entirely avoided as something that might scare the horses.”
This all needs said, because it is true.
LINK : https://www.craigmurray.org.uk/archives/2017/06/snp-must-sell-radical-vision-not-just-managerial-competence/
I strongly suggest ALL in the SNP read it.
As expected some good advice been thrown around here which is helpful but we are all preaching to the converted. We really need to examine how we take the fight forward because clearly the campaign has stalled. We need to be radical. At the moment support is too fragmented and what we need more than anything is greater collaboration between all pro Indy groups. Not sure how or at what cost this could be achieved but launching our own combined media channel which could be promoted to combat the MSM is in my mind critical. WOS is clearly a respected website and has already a strong following and on evidence of past funding efforts I’m sure could be adequately funded alongside commercial sponsorship. Often when out canvassing I have mentioned WOS but we need to widen this to enable others to access trusted reliable information. With another possible GE on the horison we cannot simply wait around and then hurriedly scurry around the doors. For one people especially the young with families object to being interrupted usually at inconvenient times and secondly mail drops are in my opinion pointless. I never read any Unionist crap that falls thro’ my door and likewise |I doubt many Unionist voters will be convinced by this and it is a waste of critical resources. In any event most canvassesr (and I include myself in this) are presently not sufficiently trained to deal with often conflicting reactions on the doorstep and I know many young helpers are discouraged by this. Corbyn has proved we need a different and more radical approach if we are serious about Indy.
How did Labour and Tories get the message out?
For nearly a year, I’ve been receiving regular emails from Ms Dugdale and Labour, via an email address I only used to register with Linkdn some years ago.
I started receiving emails from Mrs May, almost daily, three or four months ago, via that same email address.
It looks like those parties have “farmed” Linkdn for email addresses, OR bought them from Linkdn.
Labour still lost – thats worth remembering.
And we should think through the implications of wee Ruth trying to detach & to establish a Scottish version of the DUP. And the CFP – can it survive?
I agree with Heedtracker – brexit still has to be hard or not at all. How can they spin it ?
Here I am.
Promised to leave it for a while too.
Just too important to leave.
Mike says:
10 June, 2017 at 12:11 pm
“How they get voters to cooperate”
I live in Moray and over the past 7 weeks I’ve literally had mail from “Ruth Davidson’s Party” 3 or 4 times a week, delivered by the postie. Sometimes 2 or 3 leaflets. SNP one leaflet, Labour and Lib Dem none.
Getting Moray has cost the Tories a fortune.
I see the commentariat is now speculating that there will be a formal coalition with the DUP – Tory chief whip off to Belfast to negotiate a deal.
Does this mean a DUP MP is likely to be Sec of State for NI? If so, goodbye to any chance of power sharing in the NI assembly and there could be a return to direct rule, with the DUP calling all the shots in NI.
Could be thin end of the wedge in removing powers from the devolved administrations and returning them to Westminster.
Hmm. This could be done without the involvement of local parties by choosing the right candidates, meaning not too many knowing about the deal, and less chance of leaks.
Certainly here in North Ayrshire where they used to weigh the labour votes, I know the local Labour Party were annoyed by having an 18-year old candidate imposed on them by HQ. They were told this was because there was no time to go through the normal selection procedure.
They didn’t do a whole lot of campaigning, and I wonder if their money was also restricted.
The Tory was out and about, had at least two postal leaflets (to this address anyway) and a hand delivered one.
The Lib-Dem was a paper candidate who didn’t campaign.
I will make a point of looking at the spending returns.
If the Rev’s theory is right, it would be a harder trick to pull off in a scheduled election with plenty of notice, as the local parties would want to choose their own candidates.
Thankfully, our lass, Patricia Gibson, was re-elected.
Great piece at Craig Murry. Clear vision.
Jim McIntosh says:
10 June, 2017 at 2:03 pm
.
Getting Moray has cost the Tories a fortune
Almost right – getting Moray has cost some shadowy Tory donor a fortune (prob for a knighthood, or to be wrapped in the vermin ermine).
Homophobic, anti-abortion, anti gay marriage, the Taliban have not yet given up hope of forming a coalition, May is willing to consider any possibility to cling onto office.
The SNP focused the entirety of their insipid and lacklustre campaign on defeating the Tories. The old dog whistle campaigning which, to be honest, has seen its day.
Meanwhile where they actually lost was not to the Tories.
Their biggest loss was to Did Not Vote.
Their second biggest loss was to Labour.
The first of those is clearly the completely lack of a dominant Independence message. If the SNP “learn” from this disaster that they need to downplay Independence, then they have no idea what they just did.
The second was the Corbyn effect and I think a lot of Independence supporters need to be reminded that this hurts the Independence cause and a lot of leftists need reminded that Corbyn still has a party full of Blairite stooges who still don’t back their own leader.
BUt the lack of Independence, front and centre, is the biggest failing of this campaign. The SNP need to stop being so timid, when Independence commands 47% support and they can only poll 37%, they have screwed up on a monumental basis.
O/T Holding Fast. Some thoughts.
I had a wee look down memory lane today, for a post I put on just after the Indy Ref 1, something about the Establishment regrouping and going to get its shit together, stop providing ammunition (like Jim Murphy) in the way it had, and grind us down with boring.
I think I said then, that while the Yes movement had been a festival of hope and a sprint, long term we have to think ultra marathon, and dig in with thrawn.
Anyway I couldn’t find my post which I think was on WGD, but I was reminded of so much stuff. What a long way we have come, and what a lot we have achieved.
What I see with this most recent GE, is we’ve held, and there is no panic or despair. The Yessers are head up, practical and getting on with business. And they are also recognising, the ground has moved and the tactics need to be altered too.
I don’t think the SNP fought the best campaign, it definitely could have been better. I got a nice wee generic letter from Pete Wishart, hand delivered by a volunteer, just days before the vote. Vote for me it said… and bugger all else. It was complacent and lazy. This area is a Tory, OAP haven. Dementia Tax, Winter Fuel Allowance, Pension Triple Lock removal, local housing development issues…none of that mentioned – duh.
Pete if your reading, you’re a good guy, and I know you’ve been busy, but really. And whatever you do, you must NOT become the WM lead, you’re far too waffly. We need concise and punchy. I know you’ve done it before, and you did it really really well, but the games moved on and there are better qualified people for that role today.
Angus Robertson, you said, you would implement Tommy Shephard’s initiative of going round the new recruits and harnessing that energy. Well you haven’t done that and even if you try your hardest, I don’t think this is an initiative you have a passion for. As deputy, find someone who is, and get them to do it.
I have always supported the SNP and will continue to do so, but you are not above criticism. However, it is important for all of us to acknowledge, as a Political Party, with responsibilities, you have a certain role to fill and cannot move too far from it. You can’t be wearing different hats. That’s where the Yes movement comes in.
More than anything – The MEDIA. IT IS NOT GOING TO CHANGE – EVER! and any possible chance for changing it by legislation is gone, and I don’t see it coming back (no way was Corbyn going to change it for us). And even if it did change on paper, it would be the same staffers on site…
We, the YES Movement, AND the SNP, need to publish FACTS, and get them out there, and we need to do it ALL THE TIME. There is no point waiting for a 6 week campaign. Too little, too late.
So, Billboards, wouldn’t they be nice. But boy are they expensive.
So lets think practical and do-able, lets think Car Bumper Stickers, lets think A5 Flyers, lets think Car Window Posters, lets think Garden and Window Posters, lets think Hand delivered leaflet info drops, every month, and target the areas we know are vulnerable. As we all know from this site, the info and posters and articles are there, its not like we need someone to write them, they exist.
Got a computer, got a printer, got a car, lets get going, what’s stopping us.
And if we’re really smart, we would pick one subject per time period, throughout the country, Scotland’s Real Economic story, The NHS Privatisation, Defence, and and and, you get the picture. So the whole of Scotland gets the same message at the same time.
And lets talk about the big issue. Like many I never thought too much about Brexit. I voted remain, just because. But now I’ve looked at it, we are so screwed if it goes ahead, really really screwed. And we have, whether we like it or not, whether we agree with their motives or not, we have lost YES voters because of the EU and the IMMIGRATION issue.
If we wait just now for the outcome of Brexit negotiations, to then have an Indy Ref 2, and then campaign and attempt to ‘educate’ the voters. We Will Lose. The media, kept a tight screw on this information the first time, and will do so again.
For the people who voted Leave, if you want to do so again, I think it is imperative that you know what it is your vote will deliver, in terms of destruction to the economy, jobs, education, human rights, health, food quality, travel…
And IMMIGRATION – Westminster is actively seeking separate trade deals with India – and any granted will be reliant on free movement of people, same with Asia, same with Africa, same with the Middle East – you are NOT going to get the controls on immigration you think you’re voting for, regardless of what is promised. And any deal with America – means your NHS is fucked, but you will still pay for it on your taxes, and have to pay for it privately too, if you can.
I am not a racist, and I know some Leavers who are genuinely good people, who want control over immigration so that communities are not overwhelmed. It is almost impossible to have this conversation without it being hijacked into ‘racist’ territory.
But regardless, the damaging consequences of Brexit go far beyond the single issue of immigration, it is up to us to get that message across, no-one else is going to. And we have to do it now, continuously, relentlessly, by whatever means we can.
And do you know what, if we get our Independence, anyone who wants out of Europe can campaign for it – in Scotland. Lets put the cart and horse in the right order.
One last thing, we’ve lit a spark… in England… they’ve cottoned on. Our Indy Ref has inspired. There would’ve been no Corbyn surge without it. England’s people are beginning to march and I think they like it. Suddenly the Establishment has its hands full on its home turf. It is not just WM who can divide and conquer.
Sorry this so long, I just wanted to gather a lot of different strands together.
As always one bit of decency at a time.
YES WE CAN – NOW WE MUST
Just caught this excellent thread on twitter about the Northern Ireland situation. Worthy of a read. We should all be very concerned about this.
https://twitter.com/jackbern23/status/873277922429325314
UK saviour, tory Sock puppet Ruth and her merry band of David Torrance style spin docs are going to be interesting to watch, as the DUP flex their muscles but some tory’s have integrity
http://www.conservativehome.com/platform/2017/06/nick-timothy-why-i-have-resigned-as-the-prime-ministers-adviser.html
May now getting rid of staff to protect herself, seem to remember the same happening when she was Home Secretary. When things go tits up May finds an underling to take her fall.
Hope the Electoral expenses are checked out.
A LibDem has already been reported. Re Holyrood? Another Tory was cheating re office expenses.
A Tory in Thanet has been charged. Electoral fraud was committed in 31 Tory seat in 2015. Re expenses.
It better be swept under the carpet as usual.
Gerrymandering is supposed to entail a prison sentence.
3rd rate reject Davidson. Is unlikely to become PM in the forseeable future. The DUP has always supported the Tories for extra remuneration. Breaking UK/International Law with impunity. Supported by Westminster.
The SNP is in a strong position at Westminster. It holds the balance of power in a hung Parliament. Stronger than before. That was expected at the 2015 GE. Less SNP ‘bad’? Thanks to all the SNP voters.
Unionism has replaced political party allegiance. They don’t care about anything other than stopping the SNP, and with both parties’ leadership screaming that from the rooftops, it won’t stop.
It’s becoming the thing the unionists claimed they feared, because of the unionists. Divided on a single issue. Their doing, because they can’t argue economics, foreign policy, or welfare. All they can do is argue “STOP THE SNP”.
Football supporters’ mentality, and the stupid half of Scotland once again allows Westminster to shag it to death for another 50-100 years.
lol
Greg Hemphill?Verified account @greghemphill96
If you’re an SNP supporter don’t worry. 2015 was Star Wars, 2017 was Empire Strikes Back, so we still have the one with the Ewoks to come.
When sharks are circling, throwing a couple of bodies into the water, only occupies them in a feeding frenzy for a bit.
They will be back for May shortly, and hell mend her, can’t wait.
Very good piece by Craig Murray, and as a member, agree with what he says about Nicola accepting the battle ground. That has been a foolish strategy, and constantly enabled Ruth and msm.
It wasn’t a FPTP system that did for the SNP on Thursday, it was the FTP system.
When May was Home Secretary. She cut the the border control Staff. It ended up in chaos at Heathrow. People could not get through for their flights. Miles of queues. Travellers had to be let through without checks. The boss she had appointed resigned and called her out. Anywhere but Heathrow. There were connections to the attacks when she was Home Secretary. It has been covered up. They have all the legal powers to deal with it. May attacks Human rights legislation.
The Tories are in chaos. The economy is in decline. Low growth. Compared to the EU.
I never read any of the leaflets, not even the SNP leaflet, straight in the bin with all of them, why do i do that, because i know who i am going to vote for , the SNP all the time and allways has been for me, in my opinion leaflets are just a waste of time and money, most people don’t read them, the only thing they are good for is propping up a shoogly table leg lol
https://www.theguardian.com/books/2017/jun/10/val-mcdermid-electoral-reform-proportional-representation-scotland
Good piece by Val McDermid on using the Additional Members System of voting to encourage consensus in government. Wouldn’t it be good to move away from 2 party dominance at Westminster even at the expense of having UKIP representation?
I campaigned and canvassed in Edinburgh South. Whilst Tory voters repeatedly told me they were unsure of who to vote for this time, and one admitted to having voted for Murray last time, the opinion amongst us activists was that what did it was 6000 Labour voters in Gilmerton who lent us their votes last time when The Vow looked like being legislated and Sturgeon appealed for Labour votes switching back to Labour perhaps because they liked Corbyn. The irony being that they had no knowledge of Murray’s view on Corbyn. This reduced the SNP vote from 16,700 to 10,700 and swelled Murray’s vote from 19,000 to over 26,000.
If the Tories had voted for their own candidate, going on the basis of Tory votes at the local elections the month before, I estimated that they would not have had enough votes to win the seat. I estimated 13,600 votes tops. In the end they polled just 9,600 votes or 4000 short of their figure.
Of course, this number of Tory tactical votes also helped Murray. The core Labour vote in Edinburgh South would appear to be around 19000 which is, sadly, more than the SNP can muster even with the help of Greens.
We can only win this seat if traditional Labour voters switch to the SNP permanently.
Will Ruth Davidson please stop banging on about independence AND get on with the day job of finding out from her beleaguered boss in London what Brexit will mean for the people of Scotland, what’s going to happen about fox hunting down south, what measures will be taken to promote the illegal trade in ivory, and what likelihood there is that DUP bigotry will be warmly embraced by every member of the conservative party, including the Scottish branch of that party, known better in Scotland as Ruth Davidson’s party?
Demo in London ATM against the Tory/DUP alliaiance. RT has the video:
https://www.rt.com/on-air/391789-protest-against-tory-dup/
I thought it very peculiar that all three opposition parties were singing from the same hymn sheet.
On reading extensively through all media format over the last couple of weeks it is being suggested that there was tacit and covert aggreement with all mainstream parties to focus on “No IndyRef2) chant.
One of the Scottish broadsheets is reporting that Ruth Davidson was being overruled from London on a daily basis therefor by implication I would suggest both other parties would be treated the same.
The same broadsheet is also reporting a Professor of Politics (not Curtice) stating that now that the “No IndyRef2” fox has been shot will the Red, Yellow and Blue Tories stand up to scrutiny?
Admiral says @ 2.05.
I see the commentariat is now speculating that there will be a formal coalition with the DUP – Tory chief whip off to Belfast to negotiate a deal.
Does this mean a DUP MP is likely to be Sec of State for NI? If so, goodbye to any chance of power sharing in the NI assembly and there could be a return to direct rule, with the DUP calling all the shots in NI.
Could be thin end of the wedge in removing powers from the devolved administrations and returning them to Westminster.
YES Admiral that is the way my brain has been working!!! WM are certainly looking to get rid of the devolved legislatures no doubt about it!!!SCARY!!!!!!
While they (the Brits) hold us back from having another referendum with stalling tactics and lies, they are continuing to create circumstances that will encourage people from elsewhere in these islands to settle in Scotland. How long have we got left before we get swamped politically by the sheer weight of numbers of incomers, mostly Unionist in mindset. We have to waken up.
House prices in the south are ridiculous, with two bedroom flats in London selling for many hundreds of thousands of pounds. I heard a man on the radio this morning describe £100,000 as “barely enough to buy a bag of sweets”.
All the Brits have to do is hold us back for long enough and they will have won.
As time goes by, I’m coming round more to the idea that, as in other countries, only those born in Scotland or at least with several years residency, should have a vote in a future referendum. Or else we lose.
Just read Craig Murrays latest blog.
Lots of food for thought there..a lot of with which I agree ..particularly his remarks re:’smart suited spin doctors’..and lo and behold I’ve just heard Mays 2 top SPADS (Hill and Timothy) are history.
The 2017 Tory manifesto, page 21, said,
`North sea oil has given UK Gov £300 billion in tax returns`,
that`s why we have a cut price cobbled together Hampden and England have the new £1billion Wembley.
Muscleguy:
The SNP may not be the only show in Yes Town but as far as Labour and Tory voters are concerned they do not know that and I am struggling myself to see the alternative party to vote for if it’s not the SNP. Where is the alternative show?
Breeks:
You may disagree with me when I say no indyref2 until after Brexit and you may be right. However when out canvassing, lots of us were getting the doorstep message that people did not want another referendum right now and definitely not until after Brexit and that included indy supporters.
It would be interesting to know what feedback the regular contributors to Wings were receiving on the doorstep when out canvassing.
Remember to get out on the 12th July, a chance to watch what is now a sub-branch of the UK state proudly marching through a city near you. Believe they have changed the words now to ‘The sash my MP wore’.
Andrew McIver has written an article on Conservativehome.com about why Ruthie will not be going to WM any time soon. They don’t do irony.
‘Thirdly, it is important to be aware that there is no reason to expect Davidson to be particularly well-disposed towards her Westminster colleagues at this time. Earlier this week, in the televised STV leaders’ debate, she stood at her podium while the other three leaders yelled ‘rape clause, rape clause, rape clause’ in her face.
This is not an unusual occurrence. Indeed, every single difficult moment Davidson has endured in this campaign, without exception, has had its origins in London. Rape clause, immigration, dementia tax – et al. It matters not whether the attacks on her are justified; all that matters is that she is being attacked day, after day, after day, on issues which are utterly beyond her control. Westminster has been an albatross around her neck during this campaign and it is in spite of the UK party, not because of it, that she recorded this result.’
@daisy walker brilliant post. Fully agree. Think the SNP got a bit complacent.
I agree that whilst Angus Robertson was a great WM leader, he should not have been depute.
It was Tommy Shepperd for me. We needed that organisation of the grass roots.
As others on here have said,very few campaign and that’s because they don’t feel really part of the SNP
I know AR got voted in but there was a definite influence from the top suggesting it’s what they wanted.
My honest opinion is I don’t think AR will be the great loss the unionists imagine.
It now frees up the more radical element to be a bit more bolshy.
Let’s face it very few ever watched PMQs and the media didn’t report it
Glen Campbell obviously enraptured by tory triumph, but even the tory group photo is a fraud, 13 tory MP’s now, 15 tories in the shot. Even their photos are a shyst, shock:D unless they did win 15.
https://twitter.com/GlennBBC/status/873538319631691776
Am on a research opinions, just did a survey, Scottish Indy question was asked, including recall of of 2014 vote. GE17 recall, whether Nic should resign, whether Scotref should be taken off table. Whether May should resign, whether intro of legislation in Scotland banning multi pack offers of ‘junk food’ agree/disagree, whether weight programme introduced by scotgov, agree/disagree options.
So expect some polls in essence…soon. Don’t know which polling outfit.
Been thinking outside the box so dont know if it’s legally possible. As the ungodly unionist trimuverate will/are claiming victory(I’m out the country at present so reliant on web) why not call their bluff. Let the SNPgovernment stand down, citing will of populist unionist vote and force Davidson, Dugdaleand Rennie to form coalition government and try to ‘undoh a) the SNPBad legislation, fix NHS, fix education etc. Knowng all the whle they can, with Greens support, overrulle any decision. Let the country see how little intelligence actually resides in the unholy unionist alliances MSP’s. Might not be possible but would force media spotlight on the political nobodies that the unionof red, blue and libdem tories actually have
@ Jim
“I live in Moray and over the past 7 weeks I’ve literally had mail from “Ruth Davidson’s Party” 3 or 4 times a week, delivered by the postie. Sometimes 2 or 3 leaflets. SNP one leaflet, Labour and Lib Dem none.
Getting Moray has cost the Tories a fortune.”
Ive never voted for anybody on the strength of a leaflet and I don’t know anybody who has. Most people just chuck them away without bothering to read them. They are generally regarded as junk mail.
The Tories didn’t win Moray on the back of their leaflets something persuaded Labour and Lib Dem voters to give their vote to the Tories.
I would dearly love to find out how they got that message to them.
Ruth D doing what she does best…playing politics….faux concern (well publicised, naturally, by MSM) re DUP on LGBT issues…..while she herself was happily courting Scottish DUP sympathisers and Brothers in Arms in Local elections….perhaps someone should tell her there is so much MORE that is bad with the DUP than just their homophobic stance.
She may be tactically trying to distance her Scottish Tory party from the collusion of her HQ party with the DUP but it is HER Scottish Tory MP’s who will go to WM to support the Tory party at WM in that coalition.
I have a feeling that those who voted Tory (the tactical switchers) in Scotland will give not a jot nor a damn about this coalition…..after all they care not about austerity, Brexit etc so why would they care about bigots….after all these Bigots are unionists are they not ?…..and Ruth knows that too, but Ruth is trying to pre-empt criticism from political opponents up here….however…… how long will be before Ruth does another Brexit u-turn by simply ACCEPTING whatever HQ wants and just toes the line…again…. as will that useless bunch of new Scottish Tories going to WM…the rubber stampers.
People should realise that Ruth is for turning….what she says now, like May, can change very quickly, because the PARTY comes first and foremost before ANYTHING….and that is a Tory…deals with Saudi Arabia, DUP, Trump…roll up roll up anyone…all fascists welcome….if you keep us in power and naturally on cue your Scottish Labour collude with the Tories to keep the union together….even to their detriment it is a price worth paying.
A parcel of rogues….however on a lighter note I have developed an obsession with the eating of popcorn courtesy of ‘British’ politics though with all the surreal events occurring I think mine MUST be laced with LSD……either that or I am slipping in and out of a parallel universe where EVIL (twin of EVEL) reigns.
Our time will come….the unionist Scottish masochism will eventually feel the pain in their self inflicted scars when it hits (their) home and suddenly everything is f**ked….thanks to the Union….then while I eat popcorn they can eat humble pie.
In the meantime….it’s back to the popcorn ….though just had lunch so perhaps Now Is Not The Time.
Good piece by Val McDermid on using the Additional Members System of voting to encourage consensus in government. Wouldn’t it be good to move away from 2 party dominance at Westminster even at the expense of having UKIP representation?
Er, seen the news lately? 2 party dominance aint what’s happening.
That Graun thing is just fairly subtle conservative Graun propaganda… so they won, Scottish indy is dead now, lets all come UKOK together and share our lovely Holyrood democracy, because Holyrood is really lovely and has a lot to share across our wonderful country of greater England, after 2 decades of being shat on by faux progressive liberal SNP bad The Guardian.
Everything the tories say, is a lie.
Re another election – could happen – but I think its likely to be just after brexit. It would be incredible to go again during the next 18 months. Just before negotiations start was mad enough but to go again in 6 months ? During brexit ? Well nothing should surprise us now I guess.
I think it’ll be tories & DUP for brexit & to hell with the rest of the manifesto. So much for getting on with the day job. I’m gonna watch that ‘no CFP’ commitment closely.
We must keep pushing Independence, the tactics & faces might rotate, but the goal must be maintained. We must never concede it, whats the point otherwise ? It is a dignified, valuable, deliverable goal. Playing by nice unionist rules has taken us so far, within those unionist rules – but breaking the bonds will require some changes in thinking, particularly around media – something many have warned about repeatedly – and been ignored.
Salmond once told an SNP conference that its not a normal political party. That is what we need to remember.
We may need to pull into the layby for a little while for a fatigue break – but keep the engine ticking & get ready for the chance to get back in the running. I’m sure Salmond, free of commitments will be doing exactly that.
It doesn’t matter if May survives or not, at least to us independence supporters in Scotland. My opinion is she won’t.
This absolute shambles of a Tory Government will stagger on, and go into the Brexit negotiations without having a single constructive idea of what they are talking about. And when, surprise, surprise, the 27 refuse to accede to their demands, made up the night before, they will return home with their tails between their collective legs, proclaiming loudly that these nasty Europeans wouldn’t give them what they asked for. That is what May meant by saying, ” no deal is better than a bad deal”.
This is when the economic catastrophe that is Brexit will begin, and while the full effects will take some time to become apparent, we must be ready to invoke a second Scottish Referendum.
I believe that this scenario will take place in a fairly short timescale, maybe even later this year, so we must be prepared at short notice to start campaigning for a Yes vote, and on this occasion, hammer home the fact if we don’t become an independent country, we out of the E.U, with all the attendant job losses and probably irreparable damage to our economy for many years hence.
If we don’t do it then, we will never escape the vile clutches of Westminster.
Glen Campbell was orgasmic on election night, he’s got a real hard on for the Tories. Did anyone notice every newbie Tory they had on that programme was uniquely incapable of even understanding any of the points being put to them on most questions?
Many of these new ones have absolutely no experience and don’t seem capable of anything beyond the soundbite that Ruth issued them with and could only respond by repeating the same soundbite over and over, to any question put to them, even post election results. Tompkins was an embarrassment, even Campbell had tae shut him down as he knee jerked ‘the ‘Union’ into every answer…gone a bit quiet now hasn’t he? Fucking knobend.
“Heedy”
Why do ALL your links lead us to Unionist websites???
Are you a TROLL???
Awe BBC Scotland’s big hitter says the extra 2 tories in his lovely new tory group photo is a new MSP. So who’s no.15? yer da Glenn. Better get used to seeing much much more of our new shiny tory MP’s from Scotland.
That’s an upside really. BBC almost never have any SNP MP’s on their channels, so at least this lot will be on a lot more to at least discuss how shite Scotland really is.
Glenn Campbell?Verified account @GlennBBC 10m
More
The new MSP for Ettrick, Roxburgh and Berwickshire, Rachael Hamilton @Rachael2Win
@Mike
Whether it’s emails, leaflets, banners, blue cagoules, it’s down to money. Just as many of us want or enjoy being part of a movement, communications is crucial, and as I said it’s called dark money.
It’s a global issue, and its a UK issue.
Here you go.
https://www.opendemocracy.net/uk/brexitinc/adam-ramsay-peter-geoghegan/dark-money-driving-scottish-tory-surge
Peter Geoghagan might be a familiar name to you, he often appears on TV as a pundit. He’s also from NI, so he will be in demand soon.
You may not make a voting decision on a leaflet, but lots do.
We are very different from ordinary non activist voters.
I’m actually a gander and Mrs Goose, who is English, a left of centre thinking person, Yes’er and nurse shared some thoughts with me earlier. Together we came up with the following observations and thoughts. In no particular order.
Indyref2 was a bad call and probably transparently opportunistic on the back of Brexit.
Voters in Scotland are election weary. We need a break to gather thoughts and recharge batteries.
Nicola Sturgeon is a marmite person. Her mannerisms, style and delivery immitate Alex Salmond too obviously. She assumes that she is talking for all Scots and has developed classic “bubble syndrome” i.e. she occupies a bubble that is distant from the electorate and is not in touch with opinion and experience on the ground. We both acknowledge the hostile environment within which the SNP have to operate but this has shaped SNP delivery. They are viewed as aggresive.
Following on from previous paragraph – the Scottish Government and SNP at a party level should immediately disengage from participation with MSM interviews and discussion. Scot Gov should then get on with the “day job” for 12 months thus not allowing the Unionists to dictate and control the narrative.
The MSM and Unionists will always do SNP Bad so it makes no difference if the SNP do not engage with the MSM.
Instead engage directly with the public and through SNP social media. Take out the middle man (the MSM).
Put on ice discussion of Independence. Allow the Brexit lifecycle to play out. Manage day to day government activities. Do not mention Indyref2 nor touch on the subject of Independence.
Go under the radar.
In the 12 month hiatus develop a new narrative. A new way of speaking to people. A new communications strategy.
Consider a new leadership and leadership style. Nicola is not the person, nor has the style to speak to a broad church.
Immigration and the EU – Immigration is an issue. Drop the pretence that Scotland and Scottish society is in some way an island of political correctness and tolerance. It is not. There are genuine concerns. Start listening and open up to new narratives and possibilities on immigration. Scotland is a broad church. Stop adopting positions that are only designed to appeal to one segment of society. Do not (arrogantly) assume that all Yes’ers share your viewpoint. There are many shades of possible independent Scotlands, acknowledge that fact. Having concerns about immigration is NOT racist. E.g my own concern is based purely on numbers and resources. Not enough housing, not enough teachers, teacher to pupil ratios, GP to patient ratios etc. I lived in southern England for nearly 4 years until 2016 and I can assure you that a sudden influx of additional people on communities absolutely does have a negative impact. Drop the “Scotland in EU” narrative. It is to narrow.
Could someone explain the Westminster arithmetic that would enable Davidson to run her lot of Westminster mps independent of the UK tories?
Surely all their votes will be needed everytime legislation needs to be passed.
Aye Clapper, I was wondering how Ruth’s phoney schtick is going to go down within her newly found Tory voters, who are big on Brexit and want out of EU, now she’s ‘almost’ sounding as if she’s for a ‘soft brexit’, that’s not what these voters want? Watch out for the backlash, oh and btw the bigoted DUP and some of her intake will possible be anti gay too…again, the knife’s will be out for her in her own little branch, do we seriously think some of these ‘new’ Tories are ‘progressive’, in any way?
I literally live and breathe for an Indendent scotland, but to me the SNP made some serious errors in the run up to this election.
How long have we been waiting for them to make an Economic case for Independence? If we will have to raise taxes , say it. If there is a way of bullshitting the populace, bullshit it. Politics is a dirty business and ge2015/ge2017/ scottish referendum 2014 and brexit were all won by bullshit. Moral high ground does not work !
Nicola Sturgeon never once halted the televised debates and said ‘that question is about a devolved matter and this is a general election. Lets move on’.
If we want independence we HAVE to play dirty. Right and wrong doesnt matter anymore.
The SNP didn’t get complacent. They won nearly 40%. A large turnout. More than any other Party. They still won an all out majority in Scotland. A few voters more they would have got 40 MP’s 2/3 of the seats. No Party is always going to get 50% of the vote. All the time. Although if more Indy supporters had voted SNP, there would have been increased seats. They did really well. They hold the balance of power in a hung Parliament.
Voters got complacent. They should turn out if they care. Instead of the constant criticism, which does not help. The Labour voters who voted Tory prevented Corbyn getting a majority. The Polls were wrong as usual. Gerrymandering, Nothing is done about it. They are making £Millions and should be censored. Not just fined. There are supposed to be guidelines followed. Public polls should be banned in the Purdah period.
Of course the SNP have to put Indy Ref in a mandate. It is their raison d’etre. Do people want them to lie.
The Unionists electoral expenses should be examined carefully. The Unionists are in complete chaos. The Chaos at Westminster will increase support for Independence. If the Tories got in at Westminster support for Independence would increase. According to a Polls? More apearances by gloating Davidson will likely put up the Indy vote. Now she has to deliver. Not just telling porkies at Holyrood. More open scrutiny. Already campaigning against Westminster Tory policies. Funded from London and other dubious sources. How long will that last? The Unionists are in chaos. They are unsettling the UK. Making people anxious and upset. The economy is in decline. The Tories have created the total mess.
@Giving goose,
That post exemplifies to me why voters left the SNP on Thursday. Susceptibility to the media, xenophobia, and focus on personality rather than the politics.
Sad.
If anyone thinks the timing for the indyref should deviate from the stated timing given by Nicola Sturgeon of Late 2018, early 2019, after the deal is sent away but before it is ratified, then they have rocks in their head.
In relation to independence and referendum timing, the result changed NOTHING.
What IS clear, is that if it does not happen before the EU divorce is ratified, it will probably NEVER happen.
The SNP WON the election ffs.
No amount of unionist spin changes that fact. 60% of seats PRO INDY.
The SNP may not have made it about a referendum, but the 3 unionists ABSOLUTELY made it ALL about rejecting an indyref.
60% of PRO INDY seats, DESPITE not campaigning FOR a referendum and 60% of PRO INDY seats DESPITE every unionist party and the full weight of anti independence media screaming “NO to indyref”.
Get off your knees people, we ARE still winning.
BBC Scotland Tells Lies says:
10 June, 2017 at 3:42 pm
“Heedy”
Why do ALL your links lead us to Unionist websites???
Are you a TROLL???
Yes, I am a troll, or it could be that almost all websites on politics and news of politics are UNIONIST.
Also, WoS is a UK and Scottish politics blog, including UK media coverage, and has a comment section, for us to comment, on Scottish and UK and UK media, which are almost all UNIONIST.
What else do we comment BTL about, on WoS? art, hobbies, sport, motor cycle maintenance?
Hope that helps.
Anyhoo, as BBC Scotland toryboy Glenn fluffs out his new tory MP group photo, with non new tory MP’s, what’s actually coming our way soon?
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-40231314?SThisFB
If you have a Scottish job, keep a tight hold of it in the Brexit storm to come.
My very rough and ready reckoning of the result if Labour hadn’t attacked the SNP, and the SNP hadn’t attacked Labour – specially Sturgeon’s “Clype”, a very poor move even thugh “Dugdale started it”, is this:
SNP 38, Labour 11, Tories 6, LibDems 4.
This was a stupid election in Scotland, the Tories are forming a UK government and the Tories should have been the main and perhaps only target of both Labour and SNP. Instead of the silly pathetic hate-filled squabbles.
Tories slid back in by the back door, laughing all the way to No 10.
And too many understimated Corbyn – I didn’t. And too many presumed a Tory government with increased majority. I didn’t.
Say hello to the DUP Scotland, who now have more power in Scotland than you do, and Holyrood ofcourse.
http://www.belfasttelegraph.co.uk/news/northern-ireland/former-dup-council-candidate-sentenced-to-eight-years-for-pipebomb-attack-on-polish-neighbours-29206287.html
Bascically speaking, England (and Wales) did its best to get rid of the Tories, and Scotland fucked it up – both Labour AND SNP.
Interesting to see how many posts are appearing saying we need to put indyref2 to bed and wait a while. From supposed supporters of independence.
Because it is a vote loser/because folk are tired of votes etc. etc. i.e. the unionist line of reasoning to a tee.
I have a question for these posters.
Are you not aware that delaying indyref2 was and is exactly what the unionist parties want?
Are you not curious why they want to delay it so desperately that they based their entire campaign around it?
So why promote the unionist line if you are supporters of independence?
When the unionist parties DO want indyref2 to be run is when I’d be all for delaying it, but not until then. And even then, we might be at the Rubicon and now or never time anyway.
Show some fortitude folks. We are still on the winning side of the argument. (And votes and representation!) Don’t fall for the enemy’s line of thinking now, for god’s sake.
By the way, LibDems took Bath from the Tories – well done Rev!
During the local elections here in West Fife the Independent Candidate produced a cracking leaflet.
He’d been putting a fiver a week away for five years and it was one of the best I have ever seen come through my letter box.
It is full of detail, something that was sadly amiss from the SNP and other political parties and I have kept a hold of it.
What I’m getting at is if person with limited resources and backing can produce something like that, why can’t the SNP.
IMO this GE was not a sudden attempt by T May to gain an advantage for the Tories in Westminster but a cool worked-out plan (!) with three main targets.
Corbyn – SNP – EU
Involved were the Scot. Tory branch/Davidson and the BBC with certain (all?) so called newspapers. Labour/Dugdale and the Libdems were probably not fully informed in advance but could have been guaranteed to blindly jump on the bandwagon in their hatred of the SNP and play the part designed for them.
——————
1. The polls for the Tories indicated that the Labour party / Corbyn were weak and the Tories strong. So take they took the opportunity for a quick election, to increase the majority and take full advantage of a further five years in power. Politics as usual in London, so as to speak.
Didn’t quite work out that way though in spite of their collusion, thank goodness.
Now they’ve got the DUPes like a millstone on their backs, a badly weakened, loser May and probably another GE soon. The laughing stock of the world never mind the EU.
———————-
2. More serious was however the independence threat from the SNP with their almost 50% start capital and ever improving belief in the population that Scotland could and should take its own future in its own hands.
The SNP/SG had prepared the way for IndyRef2 with a debate and Mandate from the Scot.Parliament which could be activated at short notice – WITH OR WITHOUT – the “Help” of Westminster.
With Indy a huge revenue income would disappear, oil/gas, Whisky, Energy. Food/drink, fishing, etc. Imports – exports would see their true value realised, no more cooking of the books. Fiddlers on the hoof!
The horror..! Therefore Indy must be stopped.
What followed was a 100% full-blooded attempt to smash once and for all the dominance of the SNP. Money was poured into the Scottish constituencies for the Tory candidates. Attack the record of the SNP, pinpoint devolved issues. SNP bad, bad, bad. Ruin their reputation. Deflect from Roothie and Tory policies (!). You name it, they tried it.
Everything but the kitchen sink was thrown at the SNP/SG, but they still held the line and managed to get a magnificent 35 seats. Respect.
———————————
3. Westminster due to its incompetence, arrogance, lives in a strange surreal bubble and was already in a weak negotiating position.
The threat of an indy. Ref. and real independence would be a catastrophe for Westminster when dealing with the EU. Nothing connected to Scotland could be used as a bargaining chip.
The EU couldn’t and wouldn’t accept anything which might not have belonged to Westminster should Scotland go indy.
Fishing sacrificed for passporting rights – no thank you says Barnier!
Have you anything else? We’ve got Whisky. No you haven’t, Scotland has.
Errr? Energy? NO!
Oil? NO!
Without Scotland, Westminster is nothing so the SNP must be stopped at all costs.
All the time the clock is ticking, no trade deals in sight, Trump in Disneyland.
If we want Indy, we’ll have to fight tooth an’ nail to get it.
Get savvy.
Brexit will win independence for Scotland.
Don’t know whether to be worried or pleased, but Craig Murray and me seem to be on exactly the same wavelength.
But the one issue I would raise with Craig’s blog piece, and pardon the pun, but now is not the time. Yes, I agree Nicola did forfeit control the Independence Agenda, and a lot of what Craig Murray says is absolutely spot on, but don’t lose sight of the fact it happened in U.K. General Election which couldn’t, even on a good day, do justice to the Independence arguments. We know first hand that winning 56 out 59 Westminster MP’s doesn’t deliver Independence, so how big a disaster can it actually be to have 35 MP’s who can’t deliver Independence either?
Yes OK, the SNP took a hit it wasn’t really expecting or prepared for, and yes, with hindsight, maybe they should have seen it coming. But what Nicola has done is maintain the Westminster majority of SNP MP’s from Scotland, but quite importantly too, she has also kept ALL of our Brexit and Independence powder dry and unused and ready for ScotRef.
In that General Election, there were no under 16s or, correct me if I’m wrong, EU Nationals given the vote. In ScotRef, they will be. By “not” advancing any Independence arguments, the Unionists cannot draw any awkward mandate from their GE results which is harmful to Independence. Sure, they can and will bump their gums about flagging support and SNP in decline, but in alarming and serious Brexit discussions, these Unionist arguments will find precious little purchase. Brexit will, I promise, be a “stop this I want to get off” experience, but only Scotland has protected the option of actually doing it.
The SNP’s campaign was lacklustre, but this was always “somebody else’s” Election. You could almost say the SNP almost didn’t have a dog in the race. But if the bad result is punishment for a forgivable degree of complacency, then perhaps we should use it as a powerful warning that there is absolutely no room whatsoever for any complacency.
We wanted an A, but we got a C+ in the prelim. Next time, ScotRef, it’s the real thing. Let us focus on getting it right when it matters. The SNP did fight this GE on the Unionist Battleground. So let’s make bloody sure that for Brexit and ScotRef it is neither Unionist nor BBC journalist which chooses the battleground, but Nicola Sturgeon and our Scottish Government.
But you’ve got to do it Nicola. You’ve got to do it.
What the SNP’s campaign lacked for me was not pro-Independence rhetoric, but it squandered the opportunity to secure a cast iron mandate to demand devolution of broadcasting. For that, we deserve our C+.
John H says:
Sorry to say but here I go again. This touches a little on what you said.
John H says:
10 June, 2017 at 3:01 pm
While they (the Brits) hold us back from having another referendum with stalling tactics and lies, they are continuing to create circumstances that will encourage people from elsewhere in these islands to settle in Scotland. How long have we got left before we get swamped politically by the sheer weight of numbers of incomers, mostly Unionist in mindset. We have to waken up.
House prices in the south are ridiculous, with two bedroom flats in London selling for many hundreds of thousands of pounds. I heard a man on the radio this morning describe £100,000 as “barely enough to buy a bag of sweets”.
All the Brits have to do is hold us back for long enough and they will have won.
As time goes by, I’m coming round more to the idea that, as in other countries, only those born in Scotland or at least with several years residency, should have a vote in a future referendum. Or else we lose.
John
I said a few days ago b4 the election that this needs looked at when i questioned the strategy of allowing NON Scots born voting in Scots affairs when Scots born voters living elsewhere in Scotland don’t get a vote in indy refs or council elections and some said only people in Scotland should be allowed the vote when I brought up the 800,000+
that were Scots born living elsewhere in uk not getting the vote, it was said Ah too complicated too much this too much that!!!. Well great I said let them have 400,000 head start see what happens- they influence every election in Scotland GE included(nowt can be done about that) and still it continues with impunity. But if their allowed to vote in Indyref 2 and local elections then hell mend us!!!! It’ll only get worse..
If Scots born living elsewhere in UK can’t vote then non Scots living here in Scotland shouldn’t either!
They said the EU influx then 100,000 in INDY 1 would vote NO because of EU connections blah blah -ok but now we’d have approx 200,000 of them voting YES in Indy 2 NOW
OR
Have a review of it IT NEEDS A REVIEW and see what can be done for next Indy Ref- I’ve nowt against them up here having the vote but lets get real about our kinsmen living elsewhere not getting the vote is madness- EVEN IF THEY VOTED ALL NO IT WOULDN’T MATTER WOULD IT-WE still lose
It’ll only get worse……………………………….
Some links to review:
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-scotland-politics-25420827
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2753400/Revealed-How-half-million-English-voters-living-Scotland-set-block-independence.html
http://www.dailyrecord.co.uk/news/politics/independence-referendum-figures-revealed-majority-5408163
Robert Louis says:
10 June, 2017 at 1:47 pm
What Craig Murray says times 100 to the power of a googolplex times ten.
I agree Robert 100% I am 57 I have voted SNP all my adult life and I joined the party in 2014 I admit I am not an active member I have business and family commitments that take up all my time, but I donate what I can.The day the SNP stop supporting Independence is the day I rip up my membership card and it came close this year
I’ve felt throughout this whole election campaign that the SNP have been almost ashamed to say they support Independence, In a cryptic sort of way I’m beginning to think winning those 56 seats was a bad thing because it almost turned us into an establishment party, towing the unionist line.dancing and to the Unionist flute
We need to get back to our roots and stop pretending who we are, we support Scottish Independence that’s what we are and that’s what we stand for and shout it from the rooftops at every opportunity.
We need to take the gloves off especially with the BBC they are not our friends and never will be, we need to call out every lie, correct every false assertion and if necessary walk out of interviews or refuse to take part in the first place
Anyway I’m off to the pub to watch the match, no doubt another heartbreak but I’m used to that, it’s not really that important in the whole scheme of things
Graeme
oops
Should read UK not Scotland
I said a few days ago b4 the election that this needs looked at when i questioned the strategy of allowing NON Scots born voting in Scots affairs when Scots born voters living elsewhere in UK
@Robert Louis
I did read the Craig Murray piece and posted my thoughts. Strongly agree with it.
Scot goes pop, latest piece, brilliant stuff.
Mike at 3.31
Very good point that has to be followed up is the vast amount of literature that the unionists deluged target seats with. This has to be followed up. I had 13 leaflets POSTED to me from the LibDem in Argyll and Bute. There is no way the LibDems in Scotland has paid for any of this. I would at a conservative estimate put this at £150,000 in this seat. I would think this sort of expenditure was involved in the Tory target seats as well. It was a London financed plot against Scotland and a blatant circumvention of election spending limits.
I would also be interested in the level of postage voting in some seats and, more importantly, the level of take up on it. If it reached an Argyll and Bute referendum take up level of 97% it was infiltrated
DUP , THe FRee Presbyterian church in NI , remember when Paisley set one up in Gamrie years ago, this is what the UK have coming to them,, wonder when the Sabbath shut down will start
DUP news story showing them for what they are.
https://m.facebook.com/story.php?story_fbid=1854823838102888&id=1617582701827004
@geeo
Don’t have to go to facebook, the BBC are damning enough, very unusual for any party apart from the SNP:
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/election-2017-40217141
@ Breeks at 4.32
The only EU nationals able to vote on Thursday were those with dual natonality, or who are Irish, Maltese or Cypriot (ex-empire, in other words).
@pool9
The Tories scraped back in, which is bad, but this result is a good one for Indy, not a bad one. And the pressure for Indy Ref 2 will be very high in just a few short months, so as far as I can see, it’s good for Indy Ref 2, not bad.
Sturgeon needs to be non-committal, put it on the back burner perhaps, but keep open the possibility of one in early 2019. I think it will happen.
Fair chance there’ll be another GE before the end of the year.
The more aware wingers have been telling you the facts for years. The Unionists are all different factions of, “The Establishment”, and to them all the most important thing is the preservation of The Establishment.
When either The Establishment’s grip upon Scotland is pried loose, by us gaining our independence, or when all things unionist return to what the unionists think of as normal then, “The Establishment”, will remain the most important thing for all unionist parties.
Only when there is no external threats will all things unionist return to internal warfare between all unionist parties.
i wonder how many 90 minute patriots at hampden voted tory on thursday .
Gutless b/rds look out for the cheering when engurland score
Test, post not appearing and no word that should hit a filter (I removed the h^te word, same result).
Onyways, there is another way of looking at this. The heat is now on 13 Tories, 7 Labour and 4 LibDem MPs to produce a solution on Brexit that satisfies Scotland – single market, freedom of movement, immigration.
The 35 SNP MPs can sit abck and support it when it comes.
So there you go, Unionist MPs, are you up to the job?
Well are you, punks?
Bob Mack
I’m not SNP.
And that’s the point I’m trying to make and you fell into the trap of making assumptions.
I’m the wrong side of 50.
I’ve supported independence all my life and only saw the SNP as a vehicle to get there but the problem is that the SNP are now firmly imbedded as a party and purveyor of non independence political dogma; just like any other party.
Focus on the term “Broad church”. The clue to my points are summarised within this term.
The SNP, by being a government have adopted a left of centre position and painted themselves into a corner. They are not appealing to certain segments of society because of that. It doesn’t mean that people who are not wholly embracing of the SNP viewpoint are bad people but it does limit the appeal of the SNP to a wider audience.
Hence my view that the SNP “stand down” for a while on their main issue of independence. They will not go away. People know what they stand for. I simply think that the SNP need to recapture the narrative and that can be portrayed as a safe pair of hands governing a devolved Scotland while London fiddles over the Brexit bonfire (I even do classically inspired metaphors).
And by the way; I don’t do the media and I’m not xenophobic. You need to read my post again, please.
When Brexit goes wrong, as it will, then people will look for an alternative that displays cool and confident government on daily domestic matters. “Daily” and “Domestic” both matter because it’s how people experience good governance. Independence doesn’t exist so people cannot judge it by it’s merits, but they can make comparisons between clusterfuck Brexit and good delivery of day to day services.
And that is where a good SNP government will score big time.
Bob, read my posts again and give due consideration, please.
The electoral expenses should to be properly considered. Any discrepancies should be investigated. Not swept under the carpet like down South.
The DUP are sickening. The hornets nest the Tories are exposing are revolting. What despicable people they are. Foster will be looking more £Billions to squander. Along with the £1/2Billion already squandered, illegally. Still the DUP leader despite crooked behaviour. Par for the course. NI already funded to keep them quiet. A Law unto themselves. Breaking UK/International Law. The ‘marching season’ is a disgrace. They do not but do not follow UK Law. A burden on the economy. Will Scotland ever get peace from the Westminster rabble?
Heedy and his gang of Trolls are out and about today.
Peffers and Co as well
Heedy Peffs and Co
Agree with jpj2 and Valerie.
Further I have had a discussion with activists from our SNP branch and we all think each area group called a constituency association should hold a large meeting like this after Indy to get feedback on the election.
This way we can cover views on the campaign trail as well as the corporate tactical voting masterminded by the paid company the Tories brought in to do this.
They would know the voters to target.
This way nextbekection challenge can be met
Heed, RP and the rest of the Trolls
Agree with jpj2 and Valerie.
Further I have had a discussion with activists from our SNP branch and we all think each area group called a constituency association should hold a large meeting like this after Indy to get feedback on the election.
This way we can cover views on the campaign trail as well as the corporate tactical voting masterminded by the paid company the Tories brought in to do this.
They would know the voters to target.
This way next election challenge can be met by pro Indy groups.
We also need all pro Indy groups to help SNP and Greens and tactically vote.
DUP aside , let’s not forget that Ross Thomson…ex MSP was elected as an MP…to those of you in any doubt of how sub standard he is then try and see if you can watch the (outdoor) interview with Bernard Ponsonby when he as asked about the ‘Bedroom tax’.
His body language mirrors Mundell…not just when their lips move are they lying but their upper limbs seem to take a life of their own.
I cannot believe that people sacrificed a strong voice for Scotland to replace it with someone with absolutely NO integrity, vision , obvious intelligence , suffering from some kind of Uriah Heep infliction and who must have ordered a convoy of Tory rubber stamps for his new lower orifice…sorry office.. at WM.
Is this what it has come to …..a union to be saved translates as embracing idiots disguised as politicians and aligning with protestant bigots…both in UKOK and Scotland…..although some would say that has always been the case but thanks to the MSM has never been exposed….just kept hidden in the shadows from the innocents aka the politically uninformed dependent on MSM for their (lack of true) news and (dis) information.
Ruth is brazening it out…as per….her pseudo moral high ground a tad too late….she lost her morals a long long long time ago….if she had any…. so if collaborating with protestant bigots backed by terrorists is the price of maintaining the union then I say Nicola’s support for Independence wins hands down……..Let’s celebrate it not suppress it as though something to be ashamed of when the alternate clearly now seems the real tainted option……..peace over Terror….tolerance over bigotry…..women’s rights over misogyny….Independence over Unionism……SNP over Tory/DUP…..every bloody time.
————————
K1 @3.53pm
Yes K1, you are right…soft Brexit…what will her wee fisherman think….perhaps they are too thick to understand the change in tone/language….after all they are Turkey’s who vote for Xmas are they not.
Standing away from Independence means the SNP becomes the Gov who fiddles away while Brexit damages the economy. What planet are some people on. Scotland has never had better governance in difficult circumstances.
The SNP is still the most popular Party, hold all power in Scotland, the balance of power at Westminster because they are the Party of Independence. Their raison d’etre.
Stand away from Independence would destroy the Party. What kind of suggestion is that. The gains made in the last five years are amazing. Stand away from that. Why.
If people in Scotland want Infependence. All they have to do is vote SNP and give support. It is simple.
On balance it is better to have less of a Tory majority at Westminster and the SNP hold the balance of power.After May’s disaster election chaos.
@BBC Scotland Tells Lies
You might fool some of the people all of the time, you might fool nearly all of the people some of the time, but there’s some people you can’t fool any of the time. I’m one.
“Screwfix, sponsors the England v Scotland match on ITV”. wtf?
@Ken500
By my very rough and ready reckoning (plucking a figure out of the thin air), latent support for Independence in Scotland is above 60%, and probably nearer 70%.
The trick is convincing them – and getting them to vote YES.
Snp have to continue with ref plan if brexit goes ahead. It’s what they were elected for in the Scottish elections.
coalition of chaos
Loads more like this https://www.facebook.com/AngryBrigade47/posts/1404048652964546
The SNP didn’t do too bad. They won in Scotland.
The desire for another indyref is the same as it was.
Kez and Willy told their people to vote for tories and guess what? They got what they voted for!
Personally, I can’t stop laughing that they stopped their own parties being the government. They should both be kicked out of their parties.
I think that ‘voting wheel’ might look a bit different next time when their voters realise what they did.
yesindyref2
You are part of Heedy’s Troll gang/
All one person
re scot goes pop and craig murray’s blogs
i agree about not putting indyref2 on back burner but the reality is, we cannot put forward our vision for an independent scotland until we know what brexit uk will look like!
even corbyn avoided brexit with a manifesto about uk issues, indeed, what is corbyns solution if treeza walks out and we default to WTO rules? does he support efta/eea membership? bear in mind he would need to agree to free movement of people. no one has asked yet, and this issue was ignored in the ge, but it will be unavoidable very shortly
so for all those who think we should campaign to stay in the eu, say we print 1million leaflets saying so and treeza drags us out in 2 weeks time? what will you do with these fucking leaflets?
no. until we know where we will be re brexit, we cannot put forward our vision for an indy scotland, so relax and let the unionists do their worst, only then can we argue for an alternative.
100% in agreement with you @yesindyref2 says at 5:50 pm
@BBC Scotland Tells Lies, who’d have thought? 😉
Ken500
Another Troll
Why the despondency ?By the End of the year Boris will have called and won a General Election.Hard Brexit follows.Scots will be gagging for Indyref
The Indy Ref 2 was democratically discussed and voted on in Scotland’s Parliament, and it was passed with a majority vote
Brexit will be a disaster for Scotland, and 62% of Scots recognise this and voted against it.
I really don’t care what the nation next door thinks or votes on it. This their decision just as we have made ours.
There are only Bad Deals available, which the Tories and the UK media will call the best available Brexit, and they can dress this calamity in red, white, and blue, but its future is BLACK.
With the help of the abomination that is the DUP, the Tories will chip away at workers rights, reduce welfare and disability support, reduce the value of pensions, sell off the NHS, extend the retirement age to 70, more Zero Hours contracts, more job losses, higher inflation, higher mortgage rates and repossessions, and 5 Million kids living below the breadline.
I spoke to a close friend in Northern Ireland today after being shocked by a DUP Video where the their top leaders are happy to be filmed singing and dancing as the celebrate their hatred of Catholics?
Their Leader, Arlene Foster, could face criminal charges over the £500 Million Scam over bio mass fuel subsidies, and it seems that their previous leader, Peter Robinson retired rather quickly when a few £Million of unaccounted
funds were found in his account.
A nice wee deal could be had with the Tory Crooks if they were to agree to drop, cover, ignore the charges that could put these two in prison.
Have a look at the link below and ask yourself if you would accept these ignorant, deluded crooks holding the
key to passing life changing Bills in Parliament.
https://twitter.com/graham4sinead/status/873244809410031620
schrodingers cat says:
10 June, 2017 at 6:07 pm
re scot goes pop and craig murray’s blogs
i agree about not putting indyref2 on back burner but the reality is, we cannot put forward our vision for an independent scotland until we know what brexit uk will look like!
Brexit is not hard to guess, its going to be hard. EU are not going to give up anything to the tories, red or blue. EU needs a decade of stability and calm.
If they give UK a nice deal, all the Farage types across the EU will want one and that’s not an option for Brussels. At best EU emigrants living in the UK might be able to stay, so that UK citizens in the EU get the same.
Otherwise, WTO tariffs, hard borders, no more jumping on cheapo Ryanair to Barcelona for the weekend, without visas. Watch capital flow out of the UK and straight over to the richest market in the world, that we just waltzed out of.
I’ve been thinking about why May called this election when she didn’t need to. The pretext was that it “would give her a bigger mandate” in the Brexit negotiations.
I don’t believe for a minute that this was the real reason, I think instead it was definitely all about Scotland and that the SNP through Nicola Sturgeon were about to reveal what that plan to gain Independence was.
After Easter it would be Nicola Sturgeon said. So what would cause the Tories to panic and rush us into a general election?
I doubt it was the possibility of a non binding or consultative referendum that would have been ignored no matter the result.
Another tactic might have been dissolving the Scottish government and holding another election with the SNP standing on an Independence ticket in their manifesto.
It could have been something like that but you know, I think the biggest effect with fewest risk would have been to withdraw all SNP MP’s from Westminster and start to act as if Independent an already.
This one act would have had worldwide coverage and I believe support from the EU, if my guess was even remotely right and the Tories got wind of it (there are spys in every camp no doubt).
Then this General election was held to weaken the SNP and Labour while strengthening the Tory majority, or so they thought being so far ahead in the polls.
Just speculating but hey! Love it when any Tory plan goes tits up.
OT – very – and then outta her to do some work
Just opened a letter from Post Office (phone) “We’re changing some of our prices”.
So look at it, and the changes are all increases, not one single drop in price.
So while they’re not lying they’re being dishonest, as dishonest as much of the UK has become. I’d respect them more if they’d said “We have had to increase some of our prices.”. Still a fiar price all the same.
But dishonest and decpetive btrds, taking us for illiterate mugs.
Refusing to allow a Section 30 order would have been undemocratic so why should Scotland’s elected MP’s participate in an undemocratic parliament?
This would have been a very powerful gesture that the rest of the world, the UN and EU would have noticed. A plan like this could not be allowed to go ahead.
The unionists have joined forces to shunt the SNP into a siding and it’s not easy to see how we’re going to get back on track. If there’s another election this year, we could see Labour storm back as a major force in Scottish politics if the electorate sense that Corbyn might win.
The best leader we’ve ever had (Alex Salmond) is now out of the game (perhaps permanently). He tried hard – but ultimately failed – to convince Scotland to grab its “once in a generation” chance for independence in 2014. Nicola is a good leader but we need a great one, somebody capable of inspiring a nation, painting a compelling picture of what an independent Scotland would look like, enthusing the faithful and converting the doubters.
Let’s hope that while we’re waiting for one to emerge Scotland doesn’t fall asleep again for another 300 years only to wake up and find it’s still part of the UK.
Just speculating but hey! Love it when any Tory plan goes tits up.”
Dear Leader May called it and then lost it. Imagine what its like being a tory MP right now. Good healthy tory UK gov majority, huge Brexit deals days away and its all completely destroyed, by Dear Leader.
There’s so much to learn about leadership in politics this last month.
No wonder Ruthie babes is forming a new Conservative party now.
Alan Cochrane Simon Johnson
10 JUNE 2017 • 11:19AM
Ruth Davidson is to defy Theresa May’s plans for a hard Brexit and tear her Scottish party away from English control after the UK Tories’ disastrous General Election result.
Amid a growing clamour among senior Tories in London for Ms Davidson to be given a top position in the UK party, her aides are working on a deal that would see the Scottish party break away to form a separate organisation.”
Probably a load of shite, its just a couple of torygraph piss artists.
Over 400,000 people signed an online petition against Theresa May’s plans to cooperate with Northern Ireland’s Democratic Unionist Party.
The petition accuses the DUP of being a “dangerous group” and highlights its stance on LGBT issues, the death penalty and abortion. As of 11:10 a.m. U.K. time Saturday, 400,759Â people had signed the petition.
Can anyone find me the petition so that I can sign it?
https://eurofree3.wordpress.com/2017/06/10/dup-ing-the-british-conservative-party
Have a look at this website.
https://www.facebook.com/crimesbritain
Scroll down a couple of videos and see the video of Catholic schoolchildren being attacked with tear gas on their way to school (15 years ago) being protected by armed police.
This is the DUP that THeresa May has decided to bring into the UK government.
Heaven help us all if they don’t get their way.
Thepnr,
Sorry, I definitely disagree. I think it was (as always) purely about internal tory squabbles.
May wanted to shut down the saner voices in her party and consolidate her personal power. Everything else is peripheral.
Anent Ruth Davidson, she’s a media, London onanist variety, creation. A ‘big fish’ in a very small Scottish Tory pond. What the media made they will ineluctably destroy. T’was ever thus. Puir wee Ruthie!
The Scottish Tories are ahead of the game here. They have been linked to the Scottish Orange Order for decades.
@cearc
No need to be sorry, your guess is as good as mine.
What do you think Nicola’s plan might have been then to thwart the Tory “Now is not the time” yet still hold a referendum without a section 30 order?
ALANM at 6.22 pm.
Couldn’t disagree more with your comment about Nicola. She is a great leader, and I’m very hopeful she will lead us, aided by others in the Yes movement, to an independent Scotland.
Thoughts on the election: Most of the history of the SNP has been about pendulum swings – as soon as it goes three steps forward, it goes two back. In recent years it’s been more like ten forward, four back – which must be a long-term improvement.
As far as I can see these pendulum swings are dependent on what the mainstream media choose to highlight during the campaigns. The running of devolved services is ALWAYS good for berating the devolved government.
The funding and running of the NHS can never be good enough as it’s never measured against any yardstick. The Scottish NHS is never openly and directly compared with the NHS in England because the latter is clearly worse funded and far further down the road to privatisation. It was smart of the SNP to include “bringing English funding of the NHS up to the level of Scotland” as this highlights the difference but nobody reads manifestos and the mainstream media chose not to mention this bit.
Some other countries have health services which appear better than ours in terms of organisation and communication but we’re still not in the habit of comparing Scottish systems with others outside the UK.
Education is continually subject to different schemes and initiatives and so there’s always something there to object to. The “attainment gap” has been there forever but has only recently been pinpointed as a benchmark for the government of the day to be measured against. Unfortunately the causes of the attainment gap are complex and some of them are not in the control of governments.
If the unsubstantiated mantra “unwanted referendum” is repeated often enough without challenge, a lot of people will accept it as fact.
The late Corbynista surge by some SNP voters back to Labour doesn’t indicate anything about the popularity of independence. His policies are more attractive to Scots voters than the Blairite offerings. However it’s England which chooses the Government and the natural party of Government in England has always been the Tories. Even after Corbyn reluctantly moved to the right on Trident and after Theresa May ran a ridiculous campaign ending in her “strong and stable government” becoming dependent on the DUP the electorate in England still prefer the Tories to Labour.
The rise in the Tory vote in Scotland is down to a range of things: tactical voting by Unionists, a lack of information (leading to a lack of interest) on the implications of Brexit plus Ruth Davidson’s ability to hog media attention without mentioning the still-toxic Tory policies. The low traditional base of the Tories in Scotland lets the mainstream media portray this modest rise as a “surge” or even a “win”.
Independence is a long-term game. But we’re well on track and the momentum will return.
Three parties acted as one and were ably aided by our ever willing meeja.
Every election, every ballot of any kind is now a referendum so far as they are concerned. They campaign on one single policy only and with the media providing cover have no need of creating new policy for the Scottish electorate.
They do not owe their allegiance or respect to Holyrood or the needs of Scotland’s electorate. Their respective head offices create policy for the UK (such as it is). This allows them to focus all of their attention, all their monies, all their energies on one opponent and one policy. They can pick and choose the Scottish government policy or institution of the day to attack and again the media will provide them with a compliant and unquestioning soap box to get the narrative of the day disseminated.
They don’t need to come up with alternatives. They don’t need to come up with solutions. They can spend 24/7 365 days a year attacking their opponent safe in the knowledge they won’t come anywhere near being under the same level of scrutiny media wise as their opponents.
They have all the big cannon on their team. Central government, corporate power, extremely deep pockets and a unified political strategy. Cosy, isn’t it?
Except… except for the internet and the pro indy new media. The one big thorn in their side. Our ability to communicate and our grass roots structure, which makes the indy movement hard to target has proven problematic for the poor dears t’boot.
The clock is ticking down on Brexit, social division, the economy, our democracy and politics as we know it. In short, the smelly stuff is about to hit the fan and after all of the above which they have in their favour. After everything they’ve thrown at us over the past few years, we’re still here. All mandates are still in place across three ballots and a referendum bill has been passed by Holyrood.
We may only get one chance at this at any point in the next two years. Now more than ever, we need to be focused on the prize and on what we have in common, not what others will use to divide us.
Worth a thought.
I wonder how long ago Ruth Davidson got the nod from the BBC and the Press Barons that she was the chosen one, the Establishment Saviour? The Tories don’t do protracted leadership battles so I expect a swift taking down of May. Davidson will no doubt be elevated fairly soon, if not as a leadership candidate, then to a made up position to give her ‘Power’ over Scotland’s elected government.
People who say she can’t, she is not an MP, just wait and see how quickly the system makes things happen to accommodate this.
No one in the MSM seems in the least bit concerned that a Party who got 35 seats is being side-lined for the 13 who with the help of the 7 Slab lapdogs will usher through every piece of anti-Scottish legislation that they can. Holyrood needs to get its act together to protect itself and do it quickly.
Thepnr,
I think that is likely.
Probably, the EU would regard it as valid, it would certainly undermind a London team negotiating our assets.
As Craig Murray has said before to be independent you just need other countries to regard you as independent.
Basically, as other countries learn that it is a treaty union it is very hard for them to say you can’t leave. It would be like saying that UK can’t leave the EU.
In every bit of unionists campaigning and in EVERY msm vox pop,Nicola and the SNP was accused of ‘banging on about independence’. So they might as well,it seems
Effijy
https://www.change.org/p/winston-no-coalition-with-the-dup-may-out-postmanpratt1
courtesy of RT.
Wow. I have just seen an interview with Ruth Davidson on Channel 4 news (repeated on channel4+1 in an hour or less). In it her arrogance was breathtaking, and she was exceptionally rude to the interviewer, and just walked away mid question.
At one point, she said to the interviewer, ‘are you almost done’ In an extremely aggressive manner. Then the next question was about the DUP and gay rights, she waffled an answer, which didn’t address the question, and when the interviewer went to ask a follow on question she just walked away without warning.
Please can somebody get it on youtube or whatever.
What a shameful piece of work she is. Truly appalling.
Clearly gay rights and the coalition with the DUP is causing her big problems. The DUP are utterly despised by the Gay community in N.Ireland. I mean, really, really hated.
Re the sacking of TMay’s two aides;
Timothy was credited with the social care policy in the manifesto.
Timothy stated in reference to the notorious “dementia tax” fiasco which severely damaged the Conservative campaign.
“I would like to make clear that the bizarre media reports about my own role in the policy’s inclusion are wrong: it had been the subject of many months of work within Whitehall, and it was not my personal pet project,” he added.
So was this really a snap election???
@heed
Brexit is not hard to guess, its going to be hard.
true, but that is my point, we have to guess cos we, and the electorate do not know for sure, ergo, our drive for an indy scotland, the alternative vision for scotlands future, HAD to wait,
i expect scotlands future2 will be launched the day treeza walks out on eu negs.
BBC Scotland take a huge bow especially.
Jonathan Edwards?Verified account @JonathanPlaid 21h21 hours ago
London media including BBC demonise SNP and Plaid Cymru yet don’t bat an eyelid at DUP – the political wing of loyalist paramilitaries
@Alex Beveridge
In politics momentum is everything. Since 2015 we’ve been stuck in reverse gear. That needs to change – if Nicola can do it I’d be more than happy.
@Brian DoontheToon 1.22 – many thanks for doing the link for InformScotland’s new initiative calling for experienced journalists and campaigners to help tackle BBC bias.
I hope they’ve been swamped by Winger experts because if the TV and media bias aren’t tackled I can’t see how voters will be brought to see that independence is the natural and desirable state of any country – the media portray it as something alien and dangerous for Scotland – though not for England, of course.
Now Theresa since your new besties are the DUP and pretty hard core fundamentaist could I suggest you read Ecclesiastes chapter 3. Now is the time…
Daisy Walker you are so right on everything here. I was canvassing for Pete and he is too waffle. We directed him to folk and fed him what they had said and got him to thank them to give support for postal votes. The team Do all the work.
To be fair he worked hard but was panicked by Tory challenge.
Also need a big SNP reflection in events in each constituency from the local activist branch and CA officials as was done after Indy loss. It’s a wake up call to reality both Tories and SLab have mobilised money and young activists. We need to do the same. A few big hitter companies backing us like Aberdeen Asset management and Standard Life would not go amiss.
i expect scotlands future2 will be launched the day treeza walks out on eu negs.”
Which could be by the end of July SC.
May’s snap GE was almost certainly decided on taking down the SNP and Scottish independence. It looks like it was beautifully coordinated, riding on endless BBC Scotland fury at indyref2, long before Sturgeon announced it in March. Tories have massive funds ready, massive BBC Scotland vote Ruth ground work, they had their marginal targets and ofcourse big ones. Then Labour said vote tory too. Perfecto, tory wise.
They just didn’t count on a mediocre at best Teresa, who clearly cant take pressure of any kind. And that England would reject the horrifying BBC, Express, SUN Heil hate JC stuff.
Scots have lost their EU citizenship. One of the great frauds on us all is that we’re not being told just how much of a big deal this is. It has to be one of the central vote YES issues ref2, now.
@heedtracker
BBC Scotland take a huge bow especially.
smiles, the press will always be against us, you can rage at the injustice or you can get up and do somthing about it
they are unworthy of freedom who expect it from another hands than thier own
guys am gonna say it again, how many hours are you putting in to keep up the 45%, they arn’t like you, they are the people we persuded to vote for us
that needs to be reinforced
people wonder why I ain’t on here, and thank you to those that defended me when I do occasionally post
reason why, I am now snp treasure as well as working 5, now 4 day week and starting my own business
but truth be told I’d rather spend time talking to the voters then living in this little bubble
the 45 have never been ours to take for granted, at least 20% of them are people who took a chance on us, if we keep thinking they are just ours to take for granted, then we are already lost
The DUP detest women who sleep with other women.
Ruthie, you have been warned.
Thepnr @ 6.17
I think there is more than a grain of truth in what you say about Theresa May’s reasons for calling the election.
On Friday’s edition of CH4 news Jon Snow interviewed Kirsty Allsop- Location, Location etc. – who is a Tory supporter but not of May ir the DUP, and a Labour supporter. I saw the interview and thought Ms Allsop was pretty on the ball in what she said was the reason for the electio: to give the SNP a bloody nose.
Here is the link it is worth watching.
https://www.channel4.com/news/kirstie-allsopp-may-in-bed-with-dup
As soon as Ms Sturgeon announced the plans for a referendum and set out a possible timetable then an election was a strong possibility to try to reduce the presence of the SNP and so demonstrate, in Tory minds at least a lack of appetite for independence.
By announcing the possibility of a referendum Ms Sturgeon effectively protected Scotland from being asset stripped by the UK Government in the Brexit negotiations. The EU would be unlikely to accept any offer by the UK Gov of access to any Scottish assets such as fishing grounds if there was the possibility that those assets would not be the UK’s to bargain with because of the strong possibility that Scotland would be independant.
Therefore it became imperative to show in some way that Scotland was unlikely to vote for independence hence the election. That is why the Tories are talking up their ‘win’ in Scotland. I doubt anyone in Europe is fooled by that hype.
In my opinion by announcing the referendum, albeit 18 months down the road, Ms Sturgeon was acting to protect Scotland and at the same time really putting TM on the spot.
That is possibly a minority opinion.
Robert louis
Found this on Channel four twitter feed. It includes some of the interview with tRuthless.
If you scroll down you’ll find the bit where she is asked about the DUP and walks off leaving the interviewer in mid sentence.
Don’t think she is too happy! i think she wanted to be the person that saved the Union for
T May.
https://twitter.com/Channel4News
BBC there saying DUP has links to Loyalist extremists’ and ‘para-military groups’. Note, carefully avoiding use of word ‘terrorists’.
Listen carefully – I think she possibly swears right at the end of the clip:
her last words are:
and those are assurances that I got (turns to walk away. Does she say f***o** sounds like she went off mike or they cut the microphone…
https://twitter.com/Channel4News
tRuthless Harrison being interviewed on asking the pM to protect LBGT rights.
Davidson is incandescent about gay rights, but the other stuff the DUP stand for, its religious sectarianism, appears to matter little. Discrimination against Catholics doesn’t score on the ‘liberal’ scale. Catholics are just fair game anyway. The cult of Anti-Catholicism, cultural and religious, is an element in Scotland’s shameful past, shameful Unionist past. The likes of Davidson seem content to disenter this corpse for personal political gain. Unionism is venomous. It signifies classic, colonial ‘divide and conquer’.
We do need to wise up.
kestral says:
10 June, 2017 at 7:25 pm
@heedtracker
BBC Scotland take a huge bow especially.
Look I don’t want to be rude but can you stop telling people to shut up. If you think WoS is a little bubble, that’s fine. But if people like commenting btl WoS, or anywhere at all, what harm can it do?
BBC is power, its the UK fourth estate, an integral part of the state, its weilded with all the zeal of great warriors in that half a billion quid Pacific Quay bunker and ofcourse BBC’s unbeatable innit?
Look at how Laura Kuensberg for example enraged Lab in England with her JC “coverage” and yet,
Wings Over Scotland Retweeted
Cam Winstanley? @bspine2098 5h5 hours ago
More
Jeremy Corbyn was 2,227 votes away from becoming Prime Minister
So Kestral, its lovely to meet you, just don’t tell people to shoosh:D
@ Scottish Psyche
I wonder how long ago Ruth Davidson got the nod from the BBC and the Press Barons that she was the chosen one, the Establishment Saviour?
I think it was in 2011. Here’s a Dispatches video, “Inside Britains Israel Lobby”. Peter Oborne investigates the influence of Israel on the British Government.
At 16:50 You can see David Cameron, Annabel Goldie and Ruth Davidson walking together at the Tory Conference of, I think 2011.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0E70BwA7xgU
“Aide to Annabel Goldie
From early 2010 to March 2011 she worked as the head of the private office of the then Scottish Conservative leader Annabel Goldie. She played a large part in the organisation of campaign media events at the 2010 general election.” Wikipedia.
When Annabel Goldie lost her seat, Ruth zoomed up the ladder to become Tory Party leader in Scotland.
When mad theresa next says she is tough on terrorism, she will need to add the caveat, ‘except in N.Ireland’.
heedtracker says:
10 June, 2017 at 6:17 pm
schrodingers cat says:
10 June, 2017 at 6:07 pm
re scot goes pop and craig murray’s blogs
“i agree about not putting indyref2 on back burner but the reality is, we cannot put forward our vision for an independent scotland until we know what brexit uk will look like!”
There will be time enough for that. From what the EU is saying, they intend to be quite open about Brexit negotiations. I think we will know what is at stake fairly well, but what troubles me is the BBC and BritNat filtration process it has to go through before the story gets down to the ordinary man in the street.
Awkward issues which are the fault of Brexit stupidity will be put down to EU bloody minded intransigence when it is actually no such thing.
We, that is the population of Scotland, need straightforward, objective, dispassionate information and dialogue about the process and the consequences. What we are going to get is BBC horseshite, mendacity and hysteria.
With every fibre of my being, I believe the key to becoming Independent is securing access to broadcasting. What worries me is a) getting it, and b) getting it in time to make a difference.
Westminster will never concede it to us. Never. But we should force them to make that refusal and make it the issue which breaks the Union. Scotland demands cultural broadcasting media, Westminster denies it, so Scotland cites it inalienable sovereignty and takes control.
Do we have the power? I say yes. If we have the power to declare a UDI to assert ourselves sovereign over all things, then the same principle can apply to asserting the same sovereignty over a single issue.
Westminster is not broadcasting news and political discourse in Scotland, it is pumping in wilfully misleading subjugating propaganda. We should challenge it, call on it to be stopped, and when they ignore us, we act unilaterally to secure appropriate means to broadcast our news and current affairs properly and protect our people from malevolent manipulation.
Put it this way, if we’d had control of broadcasting in 2014, do you think we’d have won?
Put it another way, imagine if those Phantom Power Jouneys to Yes were aired on TV.
Put it another way. If Phantom Power made a series of hour long documentaries about Independence on a case by case basis, topic by topic, don’t you think these would be an infinitely superior way to inform our population of the issues, rather than the circus event of a “leadership” debate? I cannot imagine any better or more appropriate thing to do. You could even combine the two; air the documentary before a live audience, then have the politicians discuss the matters arising. And discuss the matters. Roll up their sleeves and work through the options.
“Thank you Scotland. Tonight’s Phantom Power documentary was on Scotland’s economy, currency and capital wealth funds. Tomorrows documentary will focus upon Scottish Renewable Energy…”
Can you see the BBC broadcasting that? Of course not. We might learn the truth about the Union.
The way the UK handles broadcasting is neither informative or constructive, and I don’t just mean Scotland. Look at the Brexit “debate”, where absolutely nobody learned anything, but merely had their existing positions radicalised and entrenched.
And lastly, the point about knowing what Brexit looks like. It doesn’t actually matter what Brexit looks like. Independence is not about Brexit. Independence is not about the decision that’s made, it’s about who makes it. In or out of Europe is for Scotland to decide, not Westminster. If we want to control that decision, we need sovereign independence to do it.
I dont know if any of you listen to Celtic Music FM 95.0 in Glasgow. Sounds like its grassroots and run on an absolute shoestring.
Could there be some such station playing cool music, total variety, listenable, interspersed with actual news bulletins and discussions actually reflecting our country’s reality and not the UK propaganda stream?
If indyref is taken off the table completely it is the green light to negotiate away Scotland’s resources. The EU still needs to know these may not be the UK’s to negotiate with. This is why there needs to be a Scottish Government person present at the negotiations, we need to know what is being negotiated and what the deals is with and without Scotland’s resources.
Right, so after backlash from the likes of Davidson and other Tories (so says Guardian), they’ve gone for a confidence and supply arrangement. Kinda thought they might back away from this…more like a quick look on social media and they shit themselves.
Downing Street confirmed:
“We can confirm that the Democratic Unionist party have agreed to the principles of an outline agreement to support the Conservative government on a confidence and supply basis when parliament returns next week,” said a No 10 spokesman.
“We welcome this commitment, which can provide the stability and certainty the whole country requires as we embark on Brexit and beyond. The details will be put forward for discussion and agreement at a Cabinet meeting on Monday.”
Fucking sickening.
The SNP campaign was poor. Normally I am asked to deliver leaflets but that never happened this time, which was odd. Other party activists said the same. It was as if the party was not really interested.
Two SNP leaflets arrived in the three days before election day via post but that’s far too late & the SNP leaflets simply did not have a VISION or GOAL to motivate or inspire.
I also think the television media played its part in murdering the SNP vote share. The television media relentlessly sticks the knife into the SNP at every opportunity, every day and every night in Scotland since September 2014.
Anti SNP themes are the ‘be-all-and-end-all’ of all BBC/STV news reports. Other parties’ shortcomings or untruths are ignored.
One example, PPI’s are going to cost the Scottish people billions over the next few decades. This was brought in by Scottish Labour but that scandal is never mentioned by BBC/STV reporting. SNP never calls the BBC out on this.
Another example, the planted nurse on the BBC election debate, who claimed she attended foodbanks. She proved to be lying through her teeth but instead of calling her out, for the hard faced shyster she was; the SNP ‘nobly’ refused to challenge the BBC plant; allowing her narrative to gain traction.
Until the SNP ‘grow a pair’ against the BBC/STV overlords and step up to the plate against their relentless lies & propaganda, the cause of independence is absolutely doomed.
It is a fight to the death with the BBC/STV and the SNP are simply trying to ignore their death by a thousand cuts on the BBC. Being a compliant victim is not a good look.
If you are being murdered, should you not fight back? And, perversely, bystanders then think, ‘Oh look they won’t defend themselves or fight back so they must deserve this, it must be true’.
Come on, SNP! Step up to the plate and take on the BBC/STV head on! Either make the BBC bias and lies ‘the story’ or consign yourself and your party to history. People will say, ‘To hell with the SNP. They just allow the BBC/STV to walk all over them.
If the SNP does not have the balls to fight for our country and people against the BBC/STV lies; they simply become one with the other British political parties; putting their own interests before the people’s interest and safely treading water.
Until you take on the BBC and call them out for their lies and propaganda you are dying a slow lingering political death.After the appalling BBC/STV coverage of the election in Scotland and the victory the BBC/STV have given to the Tories, the BBC/STV producers and reporters must be over the moon at their victory over their public enemy number one, the SNP, which meekly accepts their victim-hood without complaint.
Political masochism is not a vote winner.
If you don’t have the courage to fight for what you believe in or defend what you believe in (or even declare what you believe in) then get out my road, as you have become part of the obstacle to Scots Indy.
Oh and btw Davidson ‘euphemistically’ using the terms ‘other party’s’ whilst describing this deal wi the DUP shows what slimey little fucker she is, there are no other parties going into any deals with the Tories, sneaky little shit attempting to distance herself from what she has wrought.
schrodingers cat at 6.07
I get a bit concerned about any suggestion that may be construed as supporting the idea that independence is dependent on this or that brexit (and lots of other issues).
It is not.
Independence stands on its own right and merits in all circumstance. It merely confirms that all countries have the right to rule themselves no matter their circumstance or position.
Ms Davidson behaved in exactly the same way with the r*people clause. She called it all sorts of things but could not bring herself to say the real word that described it.
Breeks says:
10 June, 2017 at 7:58 pm
heedtracker says
Only chance of BBC devo up to Scotland is hung parliaments, with SNP and Lab. Otherwise forget it.
JC nearly beat the BBC, just by dint of staying calm and doing his stuff. BBC Scotland are far more aggressive than BBC England ofcourse. Their biggest weapon is just not reporting anything much about Holyrood at all, except that its bad. They specialise in telling us all how shite Scotland really is.
One of the reasons BBC is so shit to watch now is that it is staffed by the middle and upper middle classes who are ofcourse tory. But being upper and middle class doesn’t mean you have the artistic and dramatic talent to make progs worth watching. Thus another 50 years of Doctor Who, Eastenders and ripping off big US tv hits.
BBC is a toryboy job for life, except here in Scotia, and look how hard they’re clinging on to them. The more loyal they are, the greater they’re reward. In a few years Donaldo Macwhatiosherface, will be given a top BBC management in London, just like her predecessor, MacQuarry, not because she was a great broadcaster but that she helped get the tories in. Then behind Donaldo, they’ll have dozens more talentless propaganda gimps, watching and waiting for their chance at the great BBC prizes.
Its how the UK works.
Totally loving Ruth Davidson explaining that Theresa May won the most seats and therefore is PM “that is the way it works”
All of a sudden losing an overall majority and working with others of a similar mindset doesn’t diminish your mandate
You couldn’t make it up 🙂
Well now May has a new naughtiest thing she has ever done, putting the peace of NI at risk. At least if blood ends up being spilled we have the names of the leaders who will be responsible, May and Davidson.
Westminster is about to face the reality of brexit. The tories are hanging by an orange thread. The so-called united kingdom is about as stable as a jelly with Parkinsons – and it’s going to get worse. The election was a reset to a more realistic situation in Scotland concerning Westminster MPs. The SNP still won. Now, more than ever, is time to push forward the independence agenda. I’d love to see SNPMPs refusing to give the English oath when the Westminster parliament resumes.
“Tactical voting, a spectacular failure in 2015, in fact worked amazingly well this time”
Rock (28th April),
“The Greens should not stand any candidate for the Westminster election.
There is a very high risk of several SNP MPs being defeated by tactical voting by the unionists.
The “independence supporting” The National should make this very clear to its readers.”
The next GE will be towards the end of or just after brexit. This coalition can’t run 5 years.
We need to be ready.
Sturgeon should keep the referendum running, it’s all Westminster fear, otherwise we are neutralized.
People respond to a positive message but they need to be in pain before they listen, if they are already comfortable they won’t want change.
Cuilean
Many leaflets were put out, constituency exec and branch organiser would have made sure.
Sturgeon’s leadership has been dire.
“If another referendum is to happen in the next decade, the clock is very much ticking.”
Rock (26th June 2016),
“With the UK leaving the EU, there is absolutely no credible way for Scotland to remain part of the UK as well as the EU as if nothing had changed.
Everything depends on Scotland being fully independent.
The EU will want Scotland more than Scotland wants the EU.
Scotland is in a very strong position right now.
Nicola should get a written statement from the EU that if Scotland votes for independence, Scotland can be a full member from day 1, with the same arrangements as present regarding currency, Schengen etc, IF Scotland wants to be a member from day 1.
The independence referendum questions should then be:
Should Scotland become independent?
If Yes,
Should Scotland continue as a member of the EU, or
Should Scotland leave the EU?
If the vote is for independence outside the EU, we can leave the UK on the same day as the UK (including Scotland) leaves the EU.
We should not wait for the outcome of the Tory civil war down south.
The independence referendum should be held before Cameron’s successor takes over.
All the issues have been already extensively debated during the last campaign and the Wee Black Book exposing Project Fear’s lies is very conveniently fresh off the Press to be delivered to every household in Scotland.
Strike while the iron is hot.”
“If another referendum is to happen in the next decade, the clock is very much ticking.”
Rock (26th June 2016),
“With the UK leaving the EU, there is absolutely no credible way for Scotland to remain part of the UK as well as the EU as if nothing had changed.
Everything depends on Scotland being fully independent.
The EU will want Scotland more than Scotland wants the EU.
Scotland is in a very strong position right now.
Nicola should get a written statement from the EU that if Scotland votes for independence, Scotland can be a full member from day 1, with the same arrangements as present regarding currency, Schengen etc, IF Scotland wants to be a member from day 1.
The independence referendum questions should then be:
Should Scotland become independent?
If Yes,
Should Scotland continue as a member of the EU, or
Should Scotland leave the EU?
If the vote is for independence outside the EU, we can leave the UK on the same day as the UK (including Scotland) leaves the EU.
We should not wait for the outcome of the Tory civil war down south.
The independence referendum should be held before Cameron’s successor takes over.
All the issues have been already extensively debated during the last campaign and the Wee Black Book exposing Project Fear’s lies is very conveniently fresh off the Press to be delivered to every household in Scotland.
Strike while the iron is hot.”
Unfortunately, Nicola wasted months flogging a dead horse – a separate deal for Scotland which was never going to happen.
heedtracker,
“Just listen and watch BBC coverage, across the UK now. Tories have won in Scotland yesterday and that means no one in Scotland wants another referendum, they all explain, with straight faces.”
Rock (2nd June),
“Anything less than 56 will be portrayed as a defeat by the media.
And if the Tories increase their number by 100% or more, there will be euphoria about “no-one wants another independence referendum.”
@Rock 8:45pm
[June 2016]
Jings! I agree with Rock. He calls it correctly – back dated or not. I must have been on holiday first time round.
Legerwood @ 19:30,
Don’t know if it is a minority opinion or not, but it’s one that I share. And you put it very clearly too.
Macart @ 18:43,
After some necessary reflection myself, I have reached pretty much the same conclusion as you do here. Because they know what’s at stake, the Unionists threw everything including the kitchen sink against the SNP in this campaign (as the eventual election expense declarations will no doubt reveal). And this in a UK election that inevitably favours the two main parties to the enormous disadvantage of everyone else. Yet the SNP came through with colours still flying, bloodied but unbowed, and still the majority party by a significant margin. That is a magnificent achievement.
I am not of paranoid inclinations, as anyone who has read my postings will know, but I would be very surprised if this 3+1 (BBC) front against the SNP was not achieved without some kind of backroom collusion.
This is why Kezia, despite her many previous vacillations in print over indyref2, has been so hardline over it of late, and why she got so upset when “outed” by Nicola in the last TV debate (and had to be defended by Rude Gal). If the revelation took hold, it could have caused last-minute disarray to the agreement.
As to the signalling of voters mentioned by some, firstly there were the several “steers” kindly provided by the BBC. But both
Capella @ 11:43 and
AllyPally @ 14:06
upthread give a very strong hint as to how it was also done: HQ impose a candidate who is young and obviously totally “wet behind the ears”, then put very little into the local campaign. Have “generic” leaflets that can come out of the HQ funding allowance, but distribute them heavily in marginal constituencies where the agreement decides you are to be the main challenger to the SNP.
This is a high-stakes game, peeps. For keeps. Not for the faint-hearted. No doubt there are lessons to be learnt (there always are), but whinging from the sidelines (not least from those for whom indy is merely a means to a very different end) is going to achieve nothing.
Having doubts now won’t cut it. Time is running out, and we must press on.
Sorry, haven’t read earlier comments. So this may have been said.
The Rev says
Definitely. The odd thing is there are comments sprinkled across the pages of WoS where people have expressed astonishment that in their constituency they have seen virtually nothing of particular Unionists.
No one seemed to see the pattern though. It was there in front of us all along.
That is almost certainly how it was achieved. The Unionist party in 3rd place put up a paper candidate who made no attempt to look electable. They did no campaigning, and put out minimal leaflets. The Unionist party in second place went totally OTT, they were everywhere.
Seems simple, but it is almost certainly how the barstards did it.
We had a local hustings where all candidates where present. I didn’t make it but everyone commented on how awful the Labour candidate was. They didn’t even try try to answer questions coherently. No leaflets. Result … Tories win.
The SNP did not have a good election – we can all say that now. The campaign was allowed to be dominated by the agenda of the BBC and the Unionists. The slogan ‘Stronger for Scotland’ seemed meaningless and diminished as the onslaught progressed. Their voice was literally shut down.
Even with reasonable policies and endless attempts to engage, a hostile media was bent on silencing them as we saw and heard in every debate. Compare their performances with the other parties and they seemed far too civilised. Even more bizarrely, all the bile which emanated from the worst of the Yoons was projected on to them and us, the supporters.
We now face the equivalent of having to live our lives being governed in part by people who have the Old Testament as their manifesto.
The reality of what the SNP is so distorted by the yammering of Yoons, Socialist rappers and Education ‘experts’ that when real baddies come along we are taken aback. Surely the press in Scotland have to take a step back now and see what they have done in creating cartoon villains out of a reasonable Pro-European democratic socialist party?
Do they want and need extremists? Hopefully, the DUP will fulfil that role for them now. Meanwhile, the SNP can refocus and learn from this.
Rock (5th May),
“The Tories getting an increase in their vote and opinion polls suggesting no majority support for a referendum before Brexit has been completed will embolden May to refuse permission for a second independence referendum before Brexit is completed.
It will then be too late for Scotland. We will be totally in the clutches of Tory Westminster.
With hardly 50% support, we will be in position to declare UDI. And we don’t have the spine for that anyway.”
The SNP might have won the most seats, but there is no doubt about it.
The independence cause has suffered a major setback.
The longer we remain in denial, the longer it will take us to move forward.
I meant NOT in a position to declare UDI.
The SNP is a victim of its own success.
Stop protecting ungrateful classes who take advantage of SNP policies but betray the SNP when the time comes.
These classes are the selfish middle classes, the British nationalist elderly, the thugs and the English.
Give top priority to uplifting the downtrodden folks in the schemes. They will not let us down when the time comes.
Cuilean at 817pm,
Well said,
“If you don’t have the courage to fight for what you believe in or defend what you believe in (or even declare what you believe in) then get out my road, as you have become part of the obstacle to Scots Indy.”
Well said. Scotland will never get independence by being ‘nice’ or by playing the Westminster game. Like a few above, I too felt that lots of MP’s at Westminster were not a help. They were a sideshow. And if we are honest, I mean really honest, they didn’t achieve anything to progress independence. When Smith was not honoured, I felt they should have walked out. We had a clear mandate to stand up for Scotland and secure Smith, and we wimped out of it, at the first signs of resistance.
Now don’t get me wrong, Angus Robertson and Mhairi black and so on were all great at what they could do, but great speeches in a Parliament where you have no power, and are ridiculed on all sides, is not worth much.
I should add the caveat, that I come from a generation where a simple majority of pro indy MP’s meant automatic independence – something openly recognised even by Thatcher and John Major. I still cannot fathom why the SNP have personally added so so many new barriers to it – Westminster didn’t. We are in a union, and we choose to leave by a democratic mandate of the majority of MPs being pro indy. It matters not one jot what Westminster thinks. Otherwise we enter a mindset of thinking we are part of a country and seeking secession – and that is NOT the case. We are in a bilateral union, and are free to leave – as some of our opponents in Westminster have even said.
The Scots Parliament and Government need to start asserting their authority, and if Wesmtinster will not ‘give’ the powers needed, we should take them. Stop being so subservient.
Oh and for those saying ‘people are tired of indyref’, I would argue they are not. They are tired of procrastination about it – and so am I. Get on with it.
Dan Huil,
“@Rock 8:45pm
[June 2016]
Jings! I agree with Rock. He calls it correctly – back dated or not.”
I am not backdating it. I posted that on 26th June 2016 in the article “Notes from the madhouse”.
You can check it out.
Stop protecting ungrateful classes who take advantage of SNP policies but betray the SNP when the time comes.
These classes are the selfish middle classes, the British nationalist elderly, the thugs and the English”
That’s the whole point of being a tory Rock. If you’re in this class and a tory, you’ve decided and you know you do not need anything the SNP has to offer. You can even afford uni fees for your kids. Its only the price of a mid range Merc.
Logic like mine, dictates that the tories should be aiming to make Scots at least more than 50% middle and upper middle class, ensuring a forever tory Scotland, as a mere UK region, to be drained of everything but always British.
OK everyone.
How about we let the Scottish Government get on with the day job and we set up the People’s Party for Independence or Scots for Indy Party.
We have Alex and Angus, Tasmina and others spread across the country and if we merge with AUOB then we ca start to build the momentum for a non-arty Independence movement.
We all accept that the matter of Indy is bigger than the SNP so perhaps it’s time to give it wings( no pun intended)
trying out Ghost Protacall
test test
heedtracker
I never told anyone to shoosh, christ like I wouldn’t die for some loud voices to come out and do some work
seems you just want to take it that way when asked what you are doing
tell me how are you going to fight this, BBC is power, its the UK fourth estate, an integral part of the state, its weilded with all the zeal of great warriors in that half a billion quid
tell you how I am doing it, I am turning up to go out on the street to try to get voters out, in the absolute pouring rain we are still out there chapping up voters to gain their support
So tell me, how many hours did you spend on this campaign, and I don’t count turning up for marches as being anything that will change ordinary voters minds
I never once told you to shut up, I only asked WHERE WAS YOUR VOICE when we needed you
good for you if you happened to be one of those who have spent 30 hours in the last weeks actually going out on the doors to the people
were you, or did you just turn up at the march
honest question……….yes or no, I know many on here do commit time, and it’s hard especially if you have being doing it for 30 years to keep wanting to do it when you should now have hundreds of people doing it and making it easier
I DID NOT TELL ANYONE TO SHOOSH…….and you mate will not attack me for my commitment to scottish independence when I have now spent 30 years doing this hard work FOR my country
So NO i didn’t tell anyone to shoosh, I utterly await you LOUDLY telling me how many hours you spent over last 6 weeks making your dream happen
will i ask the rest of them on here as well…….I know I spent the last 30 years of my life having to on and off go out and spend hours chapping doors for the poor party of the SNP to turn them into yes, the government of scotland
just like I had to fecking spends days in the rain and not get to go on the independence march because if we’d all done that then david linden wouldn’t have the 75 votes that got him elected
So tell me what did you do……..I don’t want you to shoosh, I want you to shout from the rooftops just ecatly what your commitment is….go on tell us
every little bit of campaigning matters and so could attract others to do it which will make a difference, so tell us ho many hours you have given to on the ground work
so please don’t shoosh
tell us all
Sorry the above post should read:
“non-party Indy movement” .
Sorry, trying to eat ma tea and post at the same time!
Robert Louis
Cuilean
Spot on. Things need to change now.
Thepnr,
“I’ve been thinking about why May called this election when she didn’t need to. The pretext was that it “would give her a bigger mandate” in the Brexit negotiations.
I don’t believe for a minute that this was the real reason, I think instead it was definitely all about Scotland and that the SNP through Nicola Sturgeon were about to reveal what that plan to gain Independence was.”
Wasn’t it because she is a fool and an idiot?
Thepnr,
“Bumbling fools making an embarrassment of the UK never mind Scotland. Just think of Boris Johnson, Fox, Davis or Gove. Not only is May herself an idiot she has surrounded herself with them and they are calling the shots. Calling them wrongly of course as like Harrison they too are delusional. Idiots.”
Rock,
“They are neither fools nor idiots. They are some of the nastiest people around.”
Thepnr,
“States the biggest fool ever to post on Wings. Covert Tory.”
Man, the BBC. On the news channel just now in the sport section, they talked about the Scotland England game. 3 of four still images featured England principally. They then had a video interview with an England player after the game .
I can only assume England won??
I’m with Baronesssamedi
Since we were accused of banging on about independence when we were the only ones who were not -lets bang on about it continuously and let them feel the difference.
There is no shame in independence. It is the normal state of affairs.
It is our current state that is abnormal.
I always wondered why Conservatives harp on about standing on your own two feet except when it comes to governing your own country.
Of course the unionist parties were involved with tactical voting. We will be ready for that next time with no mixed messages.
BBC /Unionists should not set our agenda.
What a relief there is no Labour/SNP “coalition of chaos” and we have a strong and stable government!!!
Davidson’s talk of dissociation with the London Tories AND pushing for an ‘open’ Brexit (soft by another name) may be part of a grand plan.
Myself and others have posted comments on WoS where we wondered if Tories tried to throw the GE to get themselves out of the Hard Brexit corner they had painted themselves into,
If the ‘new’ government consisted of three parties Scot, Eng, and NI where two want a soft Brexit, then the diminished and dependent Eng Tories would compromise on seeking soft in the interests of unity.
Soft Brexit. Everyone’s immediate problems disappear. The UKOK survives to live another day.
So when tRuthless said that she thought it was important there was a Scottish voice at the Brexit negotiations this is what she really meant:
I think what’s really clear is that the Conservative Party, having failed to win a majority, now needs to work with others. And that means we can look again at what it is we hope to achieve as we leave the European Union – and I want to be involved in those discussions.”
BBC 16.37
So Corbyn’s saying he’s not done yet, what do the number look like if this is even a remote possibility, he’s going down fighting, it must be an absolute certainty that the SNP would have to be on board if this is what he’s saying, he cannot do this without us and Libdems and Green?
‘Jeremy Corbyn, the Labour leader, is insisting that he can still be prime minister as he vows to fight Theresa May’s attempt to run a minority government “all the way”.
Labour won 262 seats in the general election, up from the 232 the party secured in 2015, but the Conservatives remain the largest party in parliament.
Corbyn believes that without an outright majority May’s position is vulnerable and he intends to oppose the Queen’s Speech in an attempt to bring down her administration.
The Labour leader comes across as confident in an interview in tomorrow’s Sunday Mirror: “I can still be prime minister. This is still on. Absolutely.”
The more I am seeing in even the right wing MSM the more I am thinking if it’s possible that the men in grey suits are arranging for a progressive Government to take over thus quashing hard Brexit and Scottish independence at same time.
It was the way Corbyn said he was ready to govern after losing the election.
Possible I’m zooming again,but something seems up.
Has anyone asked McTernan what he thinks?
jfngw @ 20:09,
Excellent point, and one that has been sadly overlooked. I reckon it was precisely the motivation behind the snap UKGE. One to which Lab and Lib here in Scotland were eager to subscribe, because their shares are also all in UKLtd.
Young Scots charmed by Corbyn’s borrowed radical policies need to wake up and realise that they will be screwed just as much in the end by the Red Unionist as they have been by the Blue one.
The fisherfolk won’t get their hoped-for bonanza because international conservation treaties will still apply even if we are out of the EU.
The anti-immigrant bigots will be stuffed because the UK is now heading for a soft Brexit and free movement is an iron-clad guaranteed part of that. Sorry you “yes-leavers”, you were useful cannon-fodder, but now you’ll get neither of your wishes. Unless you wise up soon, you’ll end up having to just lie back and think of England.
The only winner from this utterly unnecessary GE: the financiers of London, who will likely now get their wished-for stay-at-home passporting. That’s what this election has been all about for them. Special treatment to protect their interests. Business as usual for Big Money, then, tough sh*t for the rest of us.
After the 2015 general election I predicted that the only way the unionist parties could beat the SNP was to merge. It appears that we’ve just seen the first step towards that.
When the polls came out suggesting a Tory surge in Scotland I also figured it might be a good thing. Some Labour voters would vote Tory to beat the SNP. But at what cost? The genuine Labour voters who hate the Tories more than the SNP must surely realise that the way to beat the Tories is to switch to the SNP.
The SNP had a massive surge after the no vote, I’m hoping you’ll see another surge now.
@Breeks 7.58 and @Glamaig 8.05: you both give brilliant ideas for getting a media presence able to give the truth about independence.
Have you passed these thoughts on to Inform Scotland? Brian DoontheToon gave the links above at 1.22 p.m.
A wee hint of what’s to come from Arlene Foster, a wee snatch of an interview I caught when changing channels: (I paraphrase) “We in the DUP are supporters of the Union, and not only thinking of Northern Ireland, we are thinking about the rest of the UK too”.
Now to whom do you think she was referring there, then…?
As someone earlier posted (on another thread maybe), what a crocked situation where Irish DUP bigots can have more influence on Scotland than the Scots themselves.
No wonder Rude Gal got stroppy with that C4 interviewer. Not all is happy-clappy in the Tory party, despite their self-acclaimed “win” =cough= in Scotland. (I wonder if Ruthie is getting some of their blame for running this election.)
What an almighty omnishambles. And the negotiations with the EU27 haven’t even started yet. It might be popcorn heaven, but frankly I’m getting sick of the stuff. We really have to get out of here, and the sooner the better.
For the party that claims to stand up for Scotland — judging from this campaign, and the way they have capitulated to the BBC and tRuthless’s lies, the SNP cant even stand up for themselves, never mind Scotland.
If you want to stand up for Scotland then you must take on the British Nationalists eye ball to eye ball.
Valerie has it spot on at 3.44.the amount of Tory signs and leaflets was more than I have ever seen not only for general elec. but council also
Happier note ,did some yoon baiting on bbc hys, feel much better now
Rock, Heedy, Peffers and others are part of a Unionist Trolling gang .
Probably one guy.
Ignore them.
I also read and agreed with Craig Murray’s blog on this one. He does not emphasise the point but does affirm at one stage that we need to be an independent country enjoying FULL membership of the EU. That is another elephant in the room which no one seems to be considering with the seriousness it deserves.
When Scotland voted 62% in favour of remaining in the EU, that should have been the time for the SNP to emphasise its ‘independence in Europe’ policy. Instead, all we got was talk of ‘seeking a compromise’, giving the impression that being in the customs union and the single market would be enough. As if that was what Scotland had voted for – a soft rather than a hard Brexit, but Brexit (Scexit?) all the same – which definitely was not the case.
There was no mandate from the Party’s conference, or from the people of Scotland, for the SNP leadership to change the long-standing and well-known ‘independence in Europe’ policy on the hoof. I am sorry to say it – and I intentionally did not bring up the point before this present election was over with – but there was tremendous arrogance in the decision to put ‘independence in Europe’ on a back-burner. For that is what was done.
Occasional – very occasional – noises were made to the effect that there was still a belief in the policy, but what people saw was the opposite. What we really want is not to be members of the EU but to get whatever economic advantages we can from it, while remaining on its periphery. Unbelievably – at least to me (and I am sure many others) – the SNP were lining up with exactly what has been wrong with traditional British attitudes towards Europe, whereby even pro-Europeans saw the EU project in purely economic and never in political terms.
That was a massive miscalculation on the SNP’s part which sent entirely the wrong message to Europe. Scotland’s decision, despite the clear 62% majority in the referendum, was no longer distinguishable from that of the rest of the UK. Instead, it made it seem as if we wanted Brexit. The distinction between ‘soft’ or ‘hard’ Brexit won’t cut any ice in Europe: ‘soft’ or not, it still means ‘Brexit’.
By ignoring the referendum result in Scotland, the SNP – and I am immensely sorry to use the word that now follows – betrayed not only their own principles and policy, but the people of Scotland and that people’s best interests. If, as they have been claiming for the past 40 years, they really believed that Scotland’s future lay in Europe, as an independent European nation within the EU, there was their golden opportunity to proclaim that more loudly and clearly than ever, from the day the result of the 2016 referendum was known until today. Instead, they completely fluffed it.
Why they did so is one question, but more important – and much worse in its effects – was the sheer illogicality of it all. By fluffing it, they undermined their own argument for Indyref 2. That argument was simple: staying in Europe is in Scotland’s best interest, the people of Scotland want it and have clearly voted for it, and they should get what they voted for – or at least be given the chance to retain that desired European membership. And the only way to get that is to become independent, leaving the rest of the UK (or at least England and Wales) to get on with the job of leaving. In Scotland, ‘remain means remain’!
That was the argument that should have been pursued, consistently. Once again the SNP would have proved itself a Party of principle. What is written on the can is what you get, and no messing about. Instead – incredibly – ‘remain’ suddenly became it’ll be OK to ‘leave’ after all. Then Indyref 2 came to be about future things which no one knows: no longer concerned with retaining European membership for Scotland, it would be about what kind of deal the UK would make with Europe. If the deal was OK – ‘soft’ Brexit with membership of the customs union and the internal market (things that most people don’t fully understand) – then there might not be an Indyref 2 after all. But if it was hard Brexit, or a no-deal Brexit, then there would be one.
That message is far too complicated for most folk, and it depends on far too many ‘ifs’ and ‘ands’. It made the SNP beholden to immeasurable and intangible things that no one can know, because they belong to the future and might or might not happen. Clarity of message was gone. What were they really talking about? What did they really want?
Since the 2016 referendum had produced an absolutely clear result in Scotland, the SNP should have felt bound to go with it. After all, this is a Party that claims to believe in the referendum system, always insisting that there is no other road to independence.
However, judging by the way the way the SNP ignored what Scots actually voted for in the 2016 referendum, you begin to wonder how sincere its belief in such things really is. Perhaps the SNP Party leadership believes in the referendum system for some things, but not for others.
On membership of Europe, no, it did not matter what Scots voted for on that one – but on Scottish independence, yes, that one will count. Strange logic, surely …
Imagine what would happen if we won a referendum on independence, even very narrowly, and then afterwards the SNP turned round and said ‘just a minute, let’s have a compromise on the outcome – federalism within the UK will do instead!’ Unimaginable? It should be – but that’s what happened on the question of Europe. So, maybe not quite as unimaginable as you would think …
By which I mean that the SNP undermined not only their own argument for Indyref 2 by seeking a compromise, but also their own integrity and credibility. Hitherto it had always been a Party that stood up for what it believed in. Now … alas! … no longer! Or so, at least it seemed (and appearances are important in politics).
There are several reasons why the commitment to Indyref 2 seemed half-hearted, not to say reluctant. One of the main ones was the fear of losing the 30% of traditional SNP members who are opposed to the European Union. How many of them would have gone, we don’t know. Some would have stayed, and those who would have left have probably gone by now anyway. In 2017, if such former SNP voters felt strongly about leaving Europe, they no doubt voted for a Unionist pro-Brexit candidate anyway.
One of the lessons of the 2017 result might be that the ‘compromise’ line taken in regard to Brexit hasn’t helped shore up the SNP vote. Another might be that it handed the initiative to the pro-Brexit parties, which means effectively all the Unionist parties. If the SNP had remained firmly pro-European, it would certainly have lost some old friends, but it would also have gained some new ones. It would not have been such a calamity as the leadership seems to have feared.
The SNP’s prestige not only in Europe but in the rest of the UK would also have grown, if they had continued to make the case for Europe as they used to do. And as they began to do immediately after the 2016 result, before they (deliberately) allowed these initially bold pro-European statements wither on the vine. If they had carried on in the same vein, they would have gained the admiration of the 48% or so in England who had voted to remain. AS the only ‘remain’ party left in the UK, they would have gained a lot of much-needed sympathy south of the border – and more and more so as the Brexit business became the shambles it so evidently is.
All that capital was thrown away. There was no need to compromise, and by trying to do so the SNP were no longer setting the agenda, but following that of other people. The most alarming thing is that this trend might continue. The statements by John Swinney and even Nicola immediately after this 2017 election, in which the only factor they singled out to explain the decline in the SNP vote was Indyref 2, does not augur well. Let us hope that that does not mean that the SNP will interpret the 2017 election as an excuse for them to quietly drop Indyref 2, just as they quietly dropped ‘independence in Europe’ as Scotland’s future.
Maybe, you will say, they did not drop it in theory – but in practice, they did. I think the SNP would still have garnered almost all of the pro-Indy vote (now around 50%) in the 2017 election if they had been consistent with their long-stated ‘independence in Europe’ position, linking this to Indyref 2.
Even if I am wrong in that regard, and the result in the 2017 GE would have been roughly the same as what it is, this pro-Europe message would still have been a better base from which the SNP could go forward. Even if they are sceptical about it, most pro-Indy supporters will stomach the pro-European part of the SNP’s platform for the sake of independence.
This is another lesson for the SNP to learn from the 2017 GE result. In the GE of 2015 they got the votes of the whole ‘Yes’ movement; in 2017 they did not. They still got a lot of them, but far from all. The SNP have to realise that many of these voters are only loaning their votes, and that they do so in order to achieve one clear goal: independence. In the last couple of years the SNP have not been sufficiently convincing on that issue. Their gradual approach served them well in the past, but now they need to foster the momentum that has built up, and not let it dissipate.
To achieve that, they need to give out a message that is clear, consistent and easily understood. What they have been putting out is too complicated, and too much based on political calculations that are beginning to trip them up, and divert them from their purpose. Consistency breeds trust, and allows you to set the agenda, and the pace, of political debate. Over-calculation makes you seem feeble, and hands the initiative to your opponents, since you are responding to their tune rather than the other way round.
If you answer that there must be calculation, that is true enough: but not the kind that obscures your purpose, and makes your message incomprehensible.
Anyway, it’s still far from being a disastrous result … To the contrary. And the SNP remains the only viable vehicle for achieving the goal we all seek, which is independence.
Seems that tactical voting is a bad idea all round.No matter what outcome is aimed for,there is always an unintended consequence.Labour tactical voters must be gutted that so close to a Labour government they voted Tory.
Better to just vote for your chosen candidate.
Remember there are Tory and Labour Council coalitions all over Scotland.
They have it in their power to raise Council Tax so can no longer blame the SNP. Tories in Scotland who support budget cuts will be vilified.
Dugdale will have to support Corbyn in attacking the Tories.
DAVIDSON is trying to distance herself from May.
DUP will be found out.
The press will be preoccupied with Brexit.
Sit back and enjoy one almighty mess, none of it the fault of the SNP
As someone, like the Rev, living south of the border I am totally shocked by the way Davidson and Tories in Scotland manage to disassociate themselves who is one of the most despised prime minister’s in my life time. How on earth do they get away with it, even if they like Ruth and can’t see beyond her crocodile smile, how come they haven’t worked out that she’s just a puppet and her mistress, Cruella De May is the one who pulls the strings.
It’s alright blaming msm but somehow in England the Corbynites found a way round that, why can’t we?
@ Sarah
cheers I just emailed Informscotland – hope they pick it up!
There was an Orange March through central Glasgow today. To a man everyone was angry at this. I spoke to an English woman who was troubled as she was roman Catholic. I spoke to an Italian woman who I explained about what the scum were. Guess what she knew already and I didn’t have to explain. The common joke I heard was that’s Theresa Mays new government. This scum is hated genuinely despised. Let RUTH carry on. Everyone despises what she represents. Dirty scumbag nasty piece if suit. I despise the Tories
You Ain’t Seen Nothing Yet
Anyhow it gets worse. If you thought thismess has finished you better think again folks.
Boris the Turk has launched a leadership bid(or about to) according to Sky news !!!!
OMG – Think I’m emigrating-feck this lark.
BBCSTLies?
‘2. Play the ball, not the man (or woman).
And by all means disagree, by all means disagree forcefully – but argue with people’s views, don’t insult them personally. And that includes calling them “trolls” or implying they’re undercover Unionists. We’ll decide if someone’s trolling or not. But in the meantime, if you think they are, ignore them.
If you know what a “troll” is, then you’ll also know that getting you angry and talking about them, derailing the conversation off the subject, is exactly what they want.
Email us about suspected trolls if you want. But don’t engage them in debate if you doubt their motives, and DEFINITELY don’t engage in on-thread discussions about whether they’re a troll or not.’
https://wingsoverscotland.com/about/
I’m thinking big eck is lurking in the background hatching a plan.
Meanwhile, wholesale privatisation in the NHS in England https://www.thecanary.co/2017/06/06/the-tories-were-hoping-no-one-would-stumble-across-this-list-of-mass-nhs-sell-offs-before-the-election-but-we-did/
Can’t stand the O march. Glad there was general revulsion. I grew up with them, lived next door to the Catholic chapel so had regular march-pasts.
Sad thing is though Big Jock, people north of Perth have never seen them for real or possibly even know what they are as I think they only tend to appear in the Glasgow/West coast/ central belt.
My cousins from the N East had no idea when they came across their first outing.
@Glamaig – so do I! Cadogan Enright was giving the info about the Inform Scotland company limited by guarantee which they’ve set up to deal with their media initiative. As he comments on Wings then he might spot our exchange and look out for your email!
Hi Meg merrilees at 9:19 pm.
You typed,
“How about we let the Scottish Government get on with the day job and we set up the People’s Party for Independence or Scots for Indy Party.
We have Alex and Angus, Tasmina and others spread across the country and if we merge with AUOB then we ca[n] start to build the momentum for a non-[p]arty Independence movement.
We all accept that the matter of Indy is bigger than the SNP so perhaps it’s time to give it wings( no pun intended)”
The independence movement is, IMHO, a non-aligned movement. It includes those who are members of political parties and those who aren’t. The independence movement already has a number of ‘political wings’, eg the SNP, the Greens, SSP, Hope over fear/Solidarity and TUSC. Apologies if I’ve not mentioned any other political wings.
The last thing we need is a further political wing, possibly taking votes from the existing ones. Which of our political wings, do you feel, is in the best position to deliver independence?
I know which one I think can do it. I am a member of that party and, therefore, will not vote for another pro-independence party, while the aim of the party, of which I’m a member is…
“Aims 2. The aims of the Party shall be:
(a) Independence for Scotland; that is the restoration of Scottish national sovereignty by restoration of full powers to the Scottish Parliament, so that its authority is limited only by the sovereign power of the Scottish People to bind it with a written constitution and by such agreements as it may freely enter into with other nations or states or international organisations for the purpose of furthering international cooperation, world peace and the protection of the environment.”
If the party drops that aim from its constitution, then we will part company.
Its astonishing to watch the UK lurch from one political crisis to the next while the Article 50 clock is ticking and economic meltdown looms! All brought on by the internal machinations of the Tory party. Theres a good reason for independence right there – stop these loonies having any more control over our country.
Can I ask that everyone gets on Facebook and other social media and tells the rest of the UK that Scots voting Tory are responsible for the DUP crazies that are now governing England.
Apologise on behalf of Scotland and embarrass the clowns that voted in Tory MPs.
Poor England should not have to suffer for the selfish fuckwits in Scotland that landed this pile of shite on them by voting Tory!
Cheart àm, làrach-lìn DUP a chaidh a eadar-theangachadh gu Gaeilge
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-northern-ireland-12179367
looking at the BBC News Scotland page you could be forgiven for thinking that Ruth Davidson was First Minister.
‘Rock, Heedy, Peffers and others are part of a Unionist Trolling gang .
Probably one guy.
Ignore them.’
Seriously you’re a dick.
I thought I would have perked up by now, but my gloom has intensified.
Why? Because I feel the SNP leadership have let me down and that thought just wont go away – they have played the wrong game.
Yesterday Nicola S. should have been defiant: ‘Indy REf will happen if there is a hard BREXIT’
Instead we got: I need some sleep and yes we think that the prospect of having another Indy Ref put off some of our voters
What the F*&k!!!
As regards Indyref2, surely NS can say we are keeping the Indyref2 option open, but will only call one if there is public support for it? That way she is allowing the public to decide.
So, if as expected Brexit is bad and as a result the public move to Independence in the polls, then she can call one and the unionists would have no valid argument against it.
Tomorrow’s Sunday Herald front page:
https://pbs.twimg.com/media/DB_d5srXYAAZ5KR.jpg
Sunday Herald twitter pages:
https://twitter.com/newsundayherald?lang=en
We won the election. The SNP support independence. People don’t fall for the unionist ‘narrative’. It’s ain’t over by a long shot. 2015 was beyond compare. The first GE of 2017 merely gives us our temporary ‘floor’…now there is only one way…up. The second GE is coming. We are not done…we’re in the eye of the storm right now folks, and after this joining of Tories wi DUP, how do ye think that’s going to pan out second time around?
May – Exit Means Exit.
The WM Tories and the metropolitan media seem to have fallen in love with The Ruthsfuhrer – singing her rpraise to the rooftops, treating her as a major force in UK politics having allegedly trounced The SNP and won the GE in Scotland.
Do they really think that we can be brainwashed into agreeing with them.
Right now on SKY News they are banging on about her with yet another interview.
I know that she looks as if her body is about to explode – it can’t be long till her head explodes.
This time it was vote SNP as a “triple lock” for an indi- referendum vote. Although it’s already been decided by the Scottish Parliament that it should be held.
Will it be a “quadruple quintuple, sextuple, septuple, octuple locks on something that should be a settled issue because it was already decided on by the Scottish Parliament?
That’s an example of how poor the SNP’s campaign was. It was the WORST campaign and poorest performance by Alex Salmond and Nicola Sturgeon with their “Strong Voice at Westminster” tripe.
Alex was probably affected by personal circumstances, so I can understand his poor performance, but the whole SNP?
As with regards to achieving anything practical, voting SNP at GE’s is ALWAYS a waste of time. They can never be the UK Govt. There will never be “progressive alliances” with the SNP from Labour. Such talk by Nicola Sturgeon AGAIN and AGAIN is patent nonsense.
Having said that, I grudgingly voted SNP even though the SNP MSP’s and Scottish Govt have treated me and my family abysmally. They have a “don’t want to know” attitude about abuses I reported.
My local SNP MP, Carol Monaghan, did help constituents. She does work hard. She does care. That’s why she got my vote. I voted Labour at the last Scottish Govt election, such is my contempt for MSPs Bill Kidd and (more recently) Joan McAlpine. For me, they epitomise the SNP with their smugness and contempt for the electorate, just like Labour was/is too.
The SNP are not radical, pro-independence champions. Taken as a whole, they are a smug, bunch of careerists, enjoying being top dogs in Scotland. They have become a carbon copy of the Labour Establishment they toppled. Almost useless.
Let the SNP stand for other issues such as pro-gay rights, anti-Trident, pro-EU, pro-asylum seekers, pro-immigration. Running Councils and devolved powers, such as the health service if that’s their thing now.
I am not pro-SNP, as the SNP are crap. I am pro-independence, pro-Scotland. Pro-Yes.
I am pro-Scottish Sovereignty whether in or out of the Union. Scotland’s Parliament should be established as sovereign WITHIN the Union as a basic first step, before anything else.
The SNP are doing NOTHING to promote independence. It’s the opposite, with their unpopular policies such as deciding for us, that we should remain part of the EU and their named person scheme they are putting people off independence, as people think these same incompetents would be running indi-Scotland.
So, with that situation, how are we supposed to win an indi-ref even assuming that the UK state condescends to allow one.
I celebrate the result that we have 20 less Westminster loving SNP MPs who will not be able to bask in the limelight of being big shots in UK politics. That was never the reason to vote SNP.
The SNP should embrace sovereignty of the Scottish Parliament in all matters, then leave independence or increased devolution for future Scottish Parliaments to decide.
Or
Independence should be a single issue campaign separate from the SNP.
The current set up is not a winner. Unless, the Tories win it for us. But, that’s the SNP’s policy, hoping others will drive people to independence while they themselves do nothing to promote it.
K1……..
One Scot……..
Last time you tell me what to write……
Wull @ 22:26,
That was a long posting – obviously a lot of thought went into it and it made a lot of good sense.
Yes, in retrospect (always easier to be wise in retrospect!) the compromise position did somewhat lose the way. It even confounded some people in this forum. But the SNP were trying to cope with the initial after-effects of Brexit, which their mass survey gave them plenty to chew over. The trouble with triangulation is (as I’ve said before) you can very easily please nobody. This is what to some extent happened, I fear.
I think the SG were also trying to behave very responsibly within the existing polity, not straining for independence at all, as Rude Gal and her little helpers have been mendaciously and so assiduously asserting. And what little thanks they have got for so doing!
The whole point about Brexit is not the merits or otherwise of the EU, (as eg. some frequent letter-writers in The National seem to be fruitlessly obsessed by), it is simply that a constitutional change of the first magnitude like this should never be perpetrated upon us without our assent. To do so is an absolute outrage. It’s fundamental democracy, and it’s also the essence of the Article 50 process. If we Scots can’t stand up for ourselves as a nation over something as important as this, we deserve the contempt of the whole world.
So let the SNP and the SG take stock by all means, but like you I would recommend that they go on the front foot, and stop trying to be so reasonable when everyone else is playing hardball. Thanks to the ever-more-antagonistic BBC and the Toilet Rolls, even the SNP’s many tangible achievements in government are being odiously trashed anyway.
I hope the SNP don’t allow this recent bruising to deflect them from their purpose. It’s better to die on one’s feet than live on one’s knees. Better still, to fight on one’s feet and win through. Only by sticking resolutely to its prime purpose can they (and we) achieve that.
gus1940 says:
10 June, 2017 at 11:13 pm
May – E
Remember seeing that tossser Mundell there while getting their photo’s took.
He said:
“Indy ref 2 no more the little shit”
Also seen that other newbie arse Bill Grant from AYR with his usual attire -jeans,check shirt and jacket, hugging and kissing the furer .
Maybe someone has a record of it????
Brian Doonthetoon.
I couldn’t agree more with you.
Personally, I think the SNP is best set to fight for Independence.
My money is on Nicola as the best person to lead us to that goal.
She has more knowledge of what is going on that any of us has.
However, as Leader of the SNP she is singled out and relentlessly attacked over Indy.
Quite a few posting on this thread are expressing doubts, concerned that she might decide to drop Indy for the time being or even turn away from it completely.
Also, she has said as First Minister she has to try and bring the country together;
to act in the best interests of those who voted Leave/NO as well as in the best interests of Remain/Yes voters.
I wondered, therefore if there was any mileage in taking Indy ‘out of her workload for the time being’ – let her get on with government/’ lie low’ while Brexit chaos begins to mount and allow some of the Indy ground work to be done in the background.
Personally I believe that we have a mandate to proceed and we have to go before Brexit, any change of plan is a gift to our enemies.
I guess I threw it into the melting pot as a discussion point – so far you’re the only person to comment.
PS.
Thankyou for correcting my typing errors – I was trying to eat and type at the same time.
————————-
Mail on Sunday headline is “Boris set to launch bid to become PM as May limps on”
Wull at 1026pm,
An excellent (albeit long) post. I agree wholeheartedly with your analysis. I too was dismayed when the opposition to brexit suddenly became re-phrased as ‘the single market’, which is a different thing. I don’t want to know the brexit deal. I don’t want to see what Scotland gets. I don’t want the Scottish Government to get a seat at the brexit table. It is actually really simple, I do not want to leave the EU, and as you rightly point out, it is that which 62% of Scots wanted too.
I have no idea why the FM suddenly changed tack. As you say, it makes no sense, and importantly she has no mandate for it.
I feel perhaps Nicola is surrounded by the wrong people advising her. As you say, you need a clear message and opposing brexit was it. All this procrastination about ‘let’s see what kind of deal the UK gets and so on, is just rubbish, and to the average voter, utterly meaningless. I even saw an interview with the FM during the election where she said she wanted to work with others to secure the best Brexit deal for the UK. That is delusional. Firstly, nobody in London gives a toss what she thinks (sorry, but it’s true), and secondly, it is not what the people of Scotland voted for. They voted by a very large margin to stay in the EU.
I don’t want a freaking ‘brexit deal’, I want to stay in the EU. On that I am not going to change my mind. Brexit is just political madness magnified a thousand fold. Even if mad Theresa gets every concession she seeks, I am still not interested, I want to stay in the EU, not the ‘single market’, not the EFTA.
It is that freaking clear.
Hi BBC Scotland Tells Lies.
As a newbie Winger, are you deliberately trying to move the Rev’s hammer punishment, for lack of paragraph breaks, to a punishment for flouting his instruction to contact him if you think someone is a troll?
You’ve never read
“Email us about suspected trolls if you want. But don’t engage them in debate if you doubt their motives, and DEFINITELY don’t engage in on-thread discussions about whether they’re a troll or not.”
at:-
https://wingsoverscotland.com/about/
have you?
I saw your type described in “Kentucky Fried Movie”.
You’re a “Danger seeker”.
Doon the Toon
Get back to me when you are sober.
colin alexander @ 23:16,
Hmmm. Not sure how in your wonderful alt-universe you aim to achieve your self-professed paradise without the benefit of the SNP. “Sovereignity within the Union”? =splutter= FGS. Are you serious?
Is this another sad manifestation of Nirvana Fallacy or mere concern trolling…?
OK, it’s late but I’ve been thinking. I don’t normally do long posts.
Indyref2 must be activated before Brexit, for very obvious reasons.
I can’t believe people wanting a retreat from this commitment following the “material change”. The EU will not be keen to support people who do not have the conviction to help themselves.
62% of Scots who voted, voted to remain. Do we scrap this to please the 38%?
For the 38%: independence is the first and most vital thing: argue about EU/EFTA afterwards. Perhaps the SG could promise a plebiscite on this topic.
Independence is the SNP’s raison d’être: nothing in this regard on the back burner, please. We need to be loud and proud.
Corbyn gained ground in Scotland by pulling the kilt from SNP policies; yet some Yes voters gave Labour a second chance, after generations of betrayal and cronyism. As the Yanks say, “Go figure.” What has Labour ever done for us? They only think of what is best for Labour.
Blairite BLiS______d hated and briefed against Corbyn, encouraged their supporters in Scotland to vote Tory to stymie the SNP, and then claim the credit. Call them out.
There has been harsh criticism of Nicola Sturgeon and the campaign, a campaign which was inevitably hampered by postponement of the manifesto launch and fatally undermined by the inevitable BBC monstering.
Passive, rabbit-in-the-headlight SNP performance on Yoon media has to stop: if you don’t know how to cope, get media training NOW. At the moment you look weak, shifty and defensive. Many activists can do a better job, shouting at the TV screens. Who’s advising you on this strategy? The first time we get bullying, relentless interruptions or mysterious delays on the line from as far away as exotic, tropical Moray in interviews, we need to highlight these pathetic techniques. Show some conviction, please, and some fight. It’s a sad day when I can think of better responses.
The BBC is our nemesis. I have no idea how to counter its power, but all you hear when canvassing are its poisonous soundbites batted back at you, even from SNP “supporters”. Perhaps AS and AR, now released from care, could produce a strategy. Otherwise, we will be fatally hampered.
I suspect we’ll be back in GE mode before nine months have passed, and we will have to have a strategy to negate a rejuvenated BLiS______d, ironically on the back of Corbyn’s policies stolen from us and loathed by Kezia.
Yes we “won” the Scottish election despite all of the above, but momentum is everything, and this GE has stalled it, probably one of the main reasons for the Preying Mayntis calling it in the first place.
At least we have time to reflect and regroup. We must use it wisely.
We need an enthusiastic, hopeful campaign, not just competent managerialism.
Just a few random and inchoate thoughts, and not as eloquent as others above (too many to mention), but confession is good for what’s left of my soul, I hope.
Heads up, Scotland, FFS.
Can Ruth Davison, the saviour of the union ‘really’ fight on the ground she is standing on ‘now’? Can whoever comes after Dugdale is fired, as London Labour, doing the sums as well as we are, see that the ‘Blairite’s’ in Scotland cost them? Really fight on the same platform now?
We need to fight back on this narrative, it’s as much about ‘how’ we view what is happening and how much we push back on how it’s being shaped ‘for’ us?
We are standing on very good majority mandate in Scotland ground. This will be a totally different fight and there is nothing the BBC in Scotland can do to shield any of our opponents, next time round. The Sunday Herlad is starting the fight back already…it’s front page getting the DUP right out there so everyone can see who these people are and what this party represent. Ruth Davidson is a Tory going into supply and demand arrangements with the most backward, bigoted, homophobic party on these isles.
We must rub her face in that every single day for the rest of her life. She made this happen, she poisoned our debate, she degraded our public life and allowed the brothers in arms of the DUP in Scotland, into our councils, she facilitated May in reaching out to the DUP and Scottish Labour assisted her with this all the fucking way.
Not Nicola Sturgeon the SNP, not us. So can we just take a moment to get some fucking perspective on this?
They lost. We won. We claim the high ground here. What we don’t do and hopefully the SNP don’t do either is do an inverse of what May just done, we don’t pretend we lost and work backwards from that wrong conclusion.
Steady up.
BBC Scotland Tells Lies @ 23:36,
I’ve desisted until now, but I’m with the others. Take a rain check.
Anyway, whatever the media says, and BBC did make a strong point of this weirdly enough on the night, with Jackie Bird of all people emphatic about it, the SNP have the most MPs, more than the rest put together, and WON the election.
Meanwhile May who will be booted out, has a minority party who will be “helped” by the DUP, but apart from being opposed presumably by all the rest, will be opposed by – remember them – the rebellious back-benchers. Westminster is fsked.
As for the 13 Conservative MPs, they will have to demonstarte that they are strong for Scotland, eyes will be on them, and if they’re anything like Mundell there will be trouble ahead. The 7 Labour will have to show that Labour are making a comeback in Scotland, and the Libdems will ahve to show that they’re not really tractors, turncoats, powerglad monkeys on anybody’s strings.
*laughs
**pass the popcorn
wull
Good post. Absolutely agree.
And just as another thought passing into the night like wind off a duck’s back swimming in the murky waters of an eclipse of reason, maybe the SNP didn’t want to get over 50, or even over 40 MPs. There used to be the “feeble fifty” for Labour, and with the best will in the world the 56 SNP MPs weren’t able to achieve much if anything, so they were the “fusked fifty-six”.
Now there are 3 unionist parties with 13, 7 and 4 MPs sent down to Westminster with one mission basically – save the Onion. That’ll bring tears to the two dozen’s e’es.
Robert J. Sutherland
You are another one of Heedy’s Trolls.
Same guy
A lot of people keep saying the SNP ministers etc. should start being more forcefully, combative in interviews etc.
That is likely to backfire spectacularly. The media, print and TV, hold all the cards in that situation and would go into hysterical, hyperbolic, overdrive.
Don’t believe me?
Have you forgotten the reaction to Ms Sturgeon’s robust response to Ms Dugdale during the STV debate a day or so before the election?
Full scale manufactured fury in the media. Editorials calling into question the FM’s integrity, honesty and fitness for office. All of that in response to the FM calling out Ms Dugdale based on a conversation Ms Dugdale had already talked about in interviews.
And of course total silence in the media about Ms Davidson’s admission that she taped her conversation with the FM.
Any sort of ‘taking on the media’ would be wholly counterproductive as this recent example demonstrates.
I am sure SNP politicians and the FM must feel like throttling their interviewers. Their restraint is amazing but they know that while some forcefulness can be effective – the finance secretary defending his first budget springs to mind – full on run insurance with the media would not be helpful.
O/T Robert J Sutherland @ 8.51
Thank you. Good to know I am not alone in that interpretation of events.
@heedtracker says:
9.19pm
=================
Sorry but that is just student lefty “right on” nonsense. Folk of all classes support independence – and left wing policies. Indeed we know that right wing unionism of the worst kind has a strong hold in certain working class areas. Attacking one class, many of whom are inclined to support the same things as you is just counter productive as well as dishonest and a kind of prejudice.
Before you ask, I’m from a working class family but have had what would once have been considered middle class jobs most of my life. What does that make me? I voted Labour for years then when they became too corrupt moved on to other parties, eventually to the SNP .
Never ever thought of voting Tory. And don’t give me, more are Tory than left wing because you didn’t state it in these terms you made out all middle class are right wing, anti-independence.
Tinto Chiel @ 23:38,
Well said there. We all knew this episode was going to be a toughie, though by not anticipating the heavily co-ordinated opposition were just a little too optimistic (me included). But we’re still on our feet and still able to move forward.
So let’s go forward.
Tinto Chiel at 1032pm,
You make some excellent points. In some ways it is good all these things are finally being said. Like many others, I had been biting my tongue, to avoid giving the unionist liars any ammo.
You also make a good point about Alex Salmond and Angus, both together could devote their time to strengthening the strategy of the SNP.
I also agree, they really, really need to get media training ASAP.
@TC & K1 –
🙂
Good stuff.
Aside from anything else, the SNP manifesto clearly outlined the ‘right’ to call for Indyref2 if there was ‘a material change’ in circumstances, and it specified ‘Brexit’.
That’s one.
Now, we have a Tory government hingin’ by a ba’hair held by the political representatives of paramilitaries.
Doesn’t that constitute another ‘material change’?
Here’s hoping we don’t have to wait for a ‘third’.
“BBC Scotland Tells Lies says:
10 June, 2017 at 11:36 pm
Doon the Toon
Get back to me when you are sober.”
That kind of remark just reveals your true status.
A pathetic and cheap slur.
Has someone installed your Duracell batteries recently? Or mebbe you’re getting a charge from Ruthie.
‘BBC Scotland Tells Lies says:
10 June, 2017 at 11:18 pm
K1……..
One Scot……..
Last time you tell me what to write……’
But it’s fine for you to tell everyone else who to ignore?
For the avoidance of doubt BBCSTLies, ah didn’t ‘tell’ you ‘what to write’. I copied and pasted from the about page that I linked to, the site rules. So that’s the Rev telling you, got it?
Kindly refrain from the ‘hard man’ act on here BBCSTLies.
gus1940 says:
10 June, 2017 at 11:13 pm
May – Exit Means Exit.
“The WM Tories and the metropolitan media seem to have fallen in love with The Ruthsfuhrer – singing her rpraise to the rooftops”
—————————-
Yes gus1940, and the Sunday Express political editor reviewing papers on channel 130 ( BBC news channel) just said Ruthie “saved the Union”……yes you missed Indy Ref2……me too….twas a silent vote.
Just a thought….but….wonder how UKOK Brexiteers who wanted to ‘get their country back’ feel about surrendering it to another country via DUP …..frankly if I were them I would say ‘No surrender’….word is DUP will want loadsa money for NI in return for their support to Tory government…..hmm just like what they, the Brexiteers, didn’t want EU to have…money and power…..hmm…plot sickens….or it will once they realise financial implications….ha bloody ha….The EU giveth and the DUP taketh away… or so they will find out….Doh !
As I will have more time on my hands after tomorrow, my plan is to bombard my shiny new Tory MP with emails demanding he sort out education, the NHS in Scotland and policing. He must be responsible for them as they were the focus of every BBC shortbread election debate
BBC Scotland Tells Lies @ 23:46,
“Aabody’s oot o’ step except oor BSTL!” =laugh=
Just for the record, in case anybody is feeling down, the SNP are the third largest party in the UK, the largest party in Scotland by some margin, in terms of MP’s, MSP’s, councillors and members. They are the elected Government of Scotland.
They just won the election in Scotland by quite some margin.
So, it’s not all bad.
Really, there is so much out there on the DUP, Rev should really do a wee post on it and let us all share everything that is flying around, to get it our of our system
https://twitter.com/ForzaPapac/status/873199554585387008
https://www.facebook.com/photo.php?fbid=1386434408099691&set=a.657702794306193.1073741825.100001994365856&type=3&theater
https://www.facebook.com/theulsterfry/photos/a.1561000767468756.1073741828.1474939256074908/1939821382920024/?type=3&theater
https://www.facebook.com/BELFASTLAD/photos/a.603100093228279.1073741839.167750270096599/641804592691162/?type=3&theater
http://newsthump.com/2017/06/09/daily-mail-praises-theresa-may-for-teaming-up-with-right-kind-of-terrorist-sympathisers/
https://www.facebook.com/photo.php?fbid=10154715377533494&set=a.10151501662383494.1073741824.571173493&type=3&theater
We in Northern Ireland are forced by law to partner in Government with these creeps – but Teresa May does it willingly
But there is good news too https://www.facebook.com/photo.php?fbid=10155327665882673&set=a.424580812672.206893.537407672&type=3&theater
https://www.facebook.com/peter.doran.77?fref=ts
Tinto Chiel @ 11.38
“Just a few random and inchoate thoughts”
Actually quite coherent IMO. Listen to this man, and take heed. Lotsa good sense in his post.
K1
Dont fuckin start me bitch….
Ruthie’s career is not really looking too good.
First, she was Cameron’s softer-right, remain, darling and then had to rapidly shift to the hard-right, hard-brexit vote to become TM’s little darling.
Now it’s back to soft-right, soft-brexit as TM’s on the way out. Will she ever get her ‘safe’ english seat from which to head to no.10?
stu mac says:
10 June, 2017 at 11:47 pm
@heedtracker says:
9.19pm
It was just meant to be a lighthearted comment for Rock. Lighten up peeps.
But demographically tory and unionist vote is AB, C1 and C2 stu mac. Its just a fact of life.
Kind of makes you think though. I can just see the three musketeers, Mundell, Murray and Carmichael standing there in the House of Commons, words drawn “One for all and all for one”, as they save the Onion with one mighty exchange of Vows.
But … where’s D’Artagnan?
Just been thinking, you know what would take the wind out of the unionists sails? If the FM comes out fighting and states the indyref campaign is beginning, and the referendum will be held in Spring 2018, regardless of brexit progress. Her job, her day job, is to protect Scots and the Scottish economy, and Brexit will destroy the Scottish economy, she therefore has no choice etc… etc…
Never forget, people in England and Scotland who oppose brexit are still angry. it hasn’t gone away.
Anyway, the Scot gov needs to go on the attack, instead of letting London dictate events. The FM has a mandate and a responsibility to protect our place in the EU. Time to get on it, before any more damage is done.
THAT is the kind of way to win an argument.
Tut tut Mr ‘hard man’, what exactly does that threatening language mean BBCSTLies?
Goodness, what a fractious thread. Has drink been taken?
If some people don’t like the policies of the SNP, why don’t they find a party whose policies they can live with?
It’s not compulsory to join the SNP.
Re BREXIT, it makes sense to have the referendum after the terms are known. Nicola has been very consistent in stating that. Just because the Tories harp on about not having it now doesn’t mean that anyone proposed that. They are mean, nasty, lying politicians. Nothing they say can be believed.
Ruth Davidson’s megaphone messaging is a complete turnoff. People will get sick of her pompous posturing. Not the BBC of course but most of us don’t watch it anyway.
I can’t see this Tory government lasting very long. Another election is likely, maybe in October (if May lasts that long. End of the week might be too optimistic for her).
So let’s enjoy the farce of strong and stable leadership for the time being. I’m looking forward to the episode where the EU delegation arrive in Brussels to meet Mr Junker.
It seems like a lot of people are falling for the BBC narative.
SNP WON in Scotland.
(Despite the Lab/Libs voting for a tory government and loosing it for their own parties, ha, ha, ha, ha. Doncha just love tactical voting.)
Legerwood @ 23:46,
It all depends on how it’s done. Snarking bitterly at every interviewer obviously won’t cut it. But I thought Nicola was starting to get the hang of it towards the end of the election campaign, eg. in her interview with Brillo.
“If you were listening to what I have been saying..” etc.
What Nicola is “guilty” of is being too open and earnest. The kind of things we say politicians should be, FGS. But some savvying-up for all indy representatives (and not just the SNP) in the media circus is needed, so eg. they can prevent themselves from being constantly interrupted as eg. Glenn Campbell did to Fiona Hyslop while respectfully toadying to Prof Two-Jobs in the same prog.
“Would you like me to finish answering your interruption before interrupting again…?”, for example. Use their responses to gently highlight the interview bias as well as answering the actual question.
Techniques for handling aggressive unfriendly media interviews is one thing all our representatives could use more of. But not everyone is capable of producing incisive and witty put-down responses instinctively, and it’s unfair to expect it.
cearc says:
11 June, 2017 at 12:00 am
Ruthie’s career is not really looking too good.
Ruth’s a media production. Wouldnt you love to know how hard they’ve worked on her to get those “make Britain great again” sounds bites flowing as natural as normal people speak.
After the match today, STV news came on with a perfect ITV party political broadcast on behalf of the Ruth Davidson party, then ITV did it again for the rest of this UK. There were 15 Scots tory tories in that display of ITV vote tory propaganda, not 13 and we know this because beeb gimp Glenn Campbell was also there, taking twitter stills.
Only thing that will fcuk Ruth’s chances in England, Bojo taking out Teresa. That thug wont tolerate a smirky chancer from his Scotland region.
‘Goodness, what a fractious thread’
Hear! Hear!
It’s very off putting and nasty at times.
Och, BBC Scotland Tells Lies.
You’re just a wee tease, iye? I don’t mind how much you butter me up – I’m not having your babies. Unless they’re coated in breadcrumbs and done in the oven for 180 minutes at 180 degrees.
You’re an embarrassment to your species. Retire while you still have some dignity left.
No offence…
Some people buttin into things that has Fuck All to do with them.
@ Robert J Sutherland at 9:44pm
Apart from the somewhat goading use of ‘bigots’, that was an excellent post.
NO,NO,NO @Robert J. Sutherland says 10 June, 2017 at 11:39 pm
“I’ve desisted until now, but I’m with the others. Take a rain check.”
Take a rain check??
BBC Scotland Tells Lies CAN TAKE A LONG LICK O’ MY HOOP
Trollin’ away wi the “time to put Indy Ref2 on the back burner” mob.
FANNYBAWS
TheWasp: @ 23:51,
Hee hee. Good one. You have to let us know what response you get. Should be good for a snark or two (and possibly useful ammunition for a later contest, like Rude Gal’s new quote about parliamentary majorities).
These newly-elected useless Tory twerps like the escapee linesman from Holyrood won’t know what hit them. I can’t say I pity the poor dolts who elected a complete nonentity who is away most of the time playing games, but it’s a shame for all the others who didn’t. It’s one thing to win on an empty slogan, quite another to “do the day job” and properly serve the people.
kestral says:
10 June, 2017 at 9:20 pm
heedtracker
I never told anyone to shoosh, christ like I wouldn’t die for some loud voices to come out and do some work
I’m sorry for offending you Kestral. When you post things like btl WoS is a bubble, you’re going to get pot shots.
Keep in mind that btl comment sections anywhere have no pecking order, there is no rank, no cognoscenti, no deference. So don’t take it personally.
I could be the king of the world! or JK Rowling’s food taster, it really doesn’t matter does it friend:D
jockanese Wind Talker
Another drunk dick buttin in.
Heedy and his names still trollin
BBC Scotland Tells Lies says:
11 June, 2017 at 12:27 am
jockanese Wind Talker
Another drunk dick buttin in.
Sensibledave is that you? If it is, what’s your take on the Mayhem catastrophe so far?
This is an open forum, no one is ‘buttin into things that has Fuck All to do with them’, people are pointing out the actual rules as you announce to everyone who the rest of us are to ignore as you accuse people of being ‘trolls’?
You’re being extremely aggressive BBCSTLies? Your excuse isn’t jutifiable under any circumstances?
What’s with this comment BBCSTLies:
‘BBC Scotland Tells Lies says:
11 June, 2017 at 12:00 am
K1
Dont fuckin start me bitch’
What makes you think this is even remotely acceptable on the back of me copying and pasting the site rules?
@One_Scot says: 10 June, 2017 at 11:00 pm:
“Seriously you’re a dick.”
Aye! One Scot, and I think he even mentions himself among his list of those he hates in a silly effort to divert attention from himself. The style is very familiar but think of a rather childish person of the three mentioned that has fallen out with the other two and your guess may be as good as mine.
OOH BBC Scotland Tells Lies.
You’re getting my mucosal juices flowing now! Are you as much of a ‘turny-on’ in real life? Can’t wait to meet you at the next Wings get-together.
BTW: You’d better watch out for Paula Rose – she’ll eat you up and still want afters.
This is my first proper post in a while, just a few thoughts:
Now we know the real meaning of “now is not the time”, it means lets hang off until 2021 and hope the SNP/Greens lose their majority in Holyrood, so we won;t have another referendum.
I am not an SNP member and don’t know the strategy the party was working towards but Thursday’s result looks like the result of mixed messages to the electorate: From the SNP, this isn’t a vote for indyref2, that is already in the bag; every other party was saying it is a vote for indyref2 and got their vote out because of that message.
On polling day I met a yesser who proudly told me he was going to vote for Mr Corbyn because “I want to stop Theresa May and the independence vote is going to happen anyway”. I think he was wrong on both counts but he couldn’t be persuaded otherwise as he had heard on TV that indyref2 was happening anyway.
This might be a revelation to some people in strategic planning for the SNP but every election in Scotland is about the next indyref and if it isn’t fought with that in mind you are going to lose power and worse than that there will never be another indyref.
This is a time for courage and standing up for what you believe in, not hiding behind focus groups and technology. If the heat is too much for you or you don’t want to upset some people step aside and let others more capable take your place.
Heedie,
BBC going flat out to promote the ‘new’ ruth image but old tories have long memories. She’s not ‘set’ and switches her allegiances according to the wind, not reliable in the long term just a useful idiot.
Anybody seen anyone asking Kez and Willie about the success of their tactical voting campaign? They must have been delighted surely?
I’m nae drinkin’ tonight @BBC Scotland Tells Lies says at 12:27 ‘cos I’m duty clutch.
I’m also nae buttin’ in, I called you out earlier.
You Sir, are a COCKWOMBLE.
I will now heed the advice of the more learned and sensible Wingers and stop feeding the Troll.
You 77th Brigade Boys are all the same.
Enjoy the 12th wherever you are, may your flute nae toot.
Peffers, the biggest troll of them all finally appears.
As i have said, it’s the same guy
The effort the BBC are devoting to bigging up Ruth Davidson (umpteen interviews and articles on the website), suggest to me that they expected her to win a majority.
They cleared the schedules and booked the camera crews to broadcast the precious leader’s address to the nation.
The “blow for Sturgeon” scripts were all written.
Sadly, she only won 13 seats out of 59. Nicola won 35. But since the kit and crew were already booked, they did the interviews anyway. Just had to amend the articles a little.
Brexit talks start next week, nest tory PM Bojo strikes, “its early days” Strong and stably.
http://archive.is/J4Cn5
Jockanese
Ya fuckin wanker mate
Am I the only one who thinks Nicola Sturgeon should stand down as leader? She is great in so many ways but I’ve come to the conclusion that she isn’t the figurehead we need at this crucial point in our journey. There are other amazing talents in the SNP who I think would come across better in public.
BBC Scotland Tells Lies @ 00:28
Remember the not-so-wise words of rightfully-obscure ancient Eastern philosopher Confusedius:
“When in hole, keep digging”…
Col @ 00:40,
Who decided it was going to be “concern-troll night”…?
Robert J. Sutherland
Another one of Heedy’s names and another troll tosser.
So what do you have to say Robert? Did you actually just call me a troll? I should inform you that I’m nothing of the sort. You might not have liked what I posted but for gods sake don’t come out with such silly comments as that. Surely you have more to offer than petty reactionary crap as that?
By Christ they are really incompetent
Announced a confidence and supply arrangement tonight but now admit this was error
DUP must be trying to screw them
Last post for tonight @BBC Scotland Tells Lies says, 11 June, 2017 at 12:39 am
“Jockanese, Ya fuckin wanker mate” (I sorted your grammar for you)
In the words of the inimitable Kevin ‘bloody’ Wilson
“If you say you don’t wank you’re a liar, and a fool if you say that you do….”
Also I’m not your ‘mate’.
I don’t know you.
But I know your type.
I wouldn’t want your type as a mate.
F*UCK YOU & GOOD NIGHT.
@ heedtracker – the Mirror article says the SNP suffered an election night catastrophe. They got 60% of the seats. In Westminster that would equate to 390 seats, a comfortable 64 seats more than needed.
That’s usually described as a “landslide” in Westminster.
Catastrophic!
I did predict some years back on here, that it would only take a new genuinely progressive Lab leader + a new anti Tory Libdem leader along with incessant smearing of SNP leaders by the media plus pushing the one party state jibe by the media to put SNP electoral success in jeopardy.
I make it 2.5 out of 4 so far.
@Col
Sturgeon is precisely the leader the SNP need, and the best for Indy and the Ref which is still likely to be in March 2019.
But she needs to drop in unexpectedly at some branch meetings and just listen to members. Also perhaps to have dialogue with some commonspace people, and I mean listen, not overtalk. As the Ents would say, she’s too hasty!
Certainly she should leave it for a couple of weeks before saying anything more about Indy Ref 2, or even the reasons for the elxtion where the SNP won – again.
She’s much to quick trying to respond, instead of thinking it through.
She has a great head on her shoulders, but it needs more wisdom.
RJS: 😀
Christ, man, can ye no’ smell their desperation?
As Smallaxe would say: peace, always.
Heeheehee!
@Chick
My worry was the SNP would go below 25, maybe even less. There were really very few safe seats, and luckily in many seats I watched as they came in, it was the Labour vote stopped the Tories from winning. The Tories could in fact have beaten the SNP into 2nd place.
I think 35 was a great result, considering the dirty smelly ill winds blowing over anything to do with the SNP – or Indy. Or Sturgeon herself.
Robert J. Sutherland@11:37 pm
Trolling? Is Craig Murray a troll too for repeating much of the same criticisms I labelled at the SNP: “The SNP Must Sell a Radical Vision, not just Managerial Competence”.
The difference being, he’s more diplomatic. I call a spade a spade. I have been warning for many months that the SNP are losing us independence.
They were an absolute shambles. Independists are pinning all on indi-ref2. How do you expect to win that when the SNP are ashamed to mention independence? They couldn’t even promote themselves well, nevermind independence.
The Unionist media and unionist parties set the agenda. The SNP were as helpless as a kitten tied in a sack.
Sovereignty within the Union. That’s what the SNP should campaign for. You deride that idea. Good, you get it. So, will the hardline-Unionists.
That way the SNP can say: when we seek to have Scotland as equal within the Union; that Scotland works in partnership, not subservience, then that is thrown back in our faces. Scotland is forced to be subservient on the basis of a 300 year old treaty agreed by the aristocracies of England and Scotland.
Scottish sovereignty whether in or out of the Union should be a given.
We have a parliament. The SNP are managers of a “A glorified regional council” says Craig Murray, so go slag him too.
The SNP could be saying: we insist Scotland should decide which powers it needs. Not which powers it will be allowed. Parliaments decide powers for themselves. Councils are allocated the areas they run.
Yes, you are probably right, Scottish sovereignty within the UK will almost certainly be rejected by UK Govts. But, it may convince those who are not hardline unionists, that the independence movement are pragmatic realists. That they are not hardliners.
We are progressive reformists. Democrats. People who only want the same democratic rights as others, not to be dominated by Westminster, which does not represent the people of Scotland.
I am pro-independence, but I recognise that for YEARS before 2014 Home Rule was the most popular option in opinion polls. Independence was rejected in 2014.
There has been NO PROGRESS for independence since then. The SNP are scared to mention it.
I’m not suggesting independence be forgotten or abandoned, but trying to achieve Home Rule / Scottish sovereignty can be something that even some unionists agrees makes sense.
Either it succeeds or is thwarted. If it’s thwarted then it’s further proof to people that this Union is unfit for purpose.
As Cameron said: I will try to seek reform within the European Union (first) by attempting to uphold UK sovereignty within that Union. Rejection of reform led to Brexit.
Likewise, the SNP and others could seek to reform The Union. That Scotland is sovereign within the Union, including on constitutional matters. Scotland chooses which powers she devolves to Westminster – if she remains in the Union.
If the UK rejects that, (as you suggest). Then, on that basis the SNP or YES campaign can argue: reform and Scottish interests being fairly represented at WM – within this Union – is impossible.
Thus, independence is the only option. Then they should stand on a manifesto of independence. Independence only. Not a manifesto of multiple policies.
All the other policies would be for Scotland to decide once we are independent.
But for as long as the majority continue to want the Union then it’s foolish to make it independence or the status quo. All or nothing.
The SNP won’t fight for Scottish sovereignty within the Union or put up a credible campaingn for independence.
Currently, independence campaigners are hoping that the Tories will make Scotland so terrible that it will drive people to independence.
The SNP’s “Tories baaad” mantra in response to the Unionists’ SNP baaad” mantra, is the best hope for Scotland? Doesn’t seem to be working, does it? Tory support is going UP in Scotland. Scotland has just enabled a UK Tory Govt to stay in power at WM.
How are they managing that? By pointing out the SNP are crap. The SNP are kings of the dungheap and smug and lazy because of it. Indi-ref talk is just to keep independence supporters voting SNP.
I don’t believe the SNP are even trying to achieve independence anymore. If they are, they are going about it an a strange way, as they are damaging the independence cause, instead of promoting it.
Call me troll. Call me long-winded. I’m fine with that. The facts speak for themselves: The SNP are losing support. If things continue like that, the SNP won’t convert the majority No voters to support independence even if indi-ref2 ever happens.
Robert j Sutherland , don’t know if your on Twitter or follow JJ Patrick? He’s a writer and quite brave too. Anyway he tweeted tonight quite randomly about the bots and trolls Scotland is being honoured with – for some reason ?
Hopefully more in explanation to follow…
I like Wulls long post earlier arguing for a return to the principle of ‘Independence in Europe’.
I suspect some of the backtracking and muddying of waters was to protect the northeast vote and the big beasts such as Alex Salmond and Angus Robertson – remember the leave vote and the IndyREf no vote was strong here. But this has obviously failed and the beasts have gone.
So lets come back strongly as the party of Euorpe -and I mean full members. We may have lost the north east to the tories – well let them keep the north east. We held onto seats in Edinburgh of all places – who would have thought the SNP would hold seats in Edinburgh and lose all of the north-east?
So we have taken the hit – Alex has gone. Lets win Edinburgh by getting the Remain vote on our side and to do this we must scream from the rooftops – we want Independence in Europe!!
Robert J. Sutherland says:
11 June, 2017 at 12:43 am
Col @ 00:40,
“Who decided it was going to be “concern-troll night”…?
LOL , Hi Robert…Do you agree that the BIGGEST cock up of this election was in fact May calling this snap GE…for a larger mandate….and falling spectacularly on her hard Tory Brexit arse….some people missing the point that SNP and Nicola will always be dammed if they do and dammed if they don’t courtesy of the UKOK media aka Ruth D’s official fan club.
This is what they, the media and unionists want to do…create doubt and division…..SNP won the election in Scotland…NOT the Tories….end of.
Have a good evening Robert….or rather good day considering the time of my post LOL.
Capella says:
11 June, 2017 at 12:51 am
@ heedtracker – the Mirror article says the SNP suffered an election night catastrophe.
Indeed they do. This is the whole spin across England at least, end of the SNP, this union has been secured for ever, nationalism on these isles is defeated by noble and honest Brits, lets all move as one, with the DUP, towards a better Conservative Brexit UK tomorrow.
It is spectacular to watch though, the whole tory BBC led media have decided independence has been voted out, by Scotland. It could work.
This week has clearly been decided as the yoon culture’s pivotal moment where unionists, red and blue tory, strike back permanently against the whole Scottish independence movement. It makes a lot of sense for them to do it so hard and so heavy now too, bludgeon us into being UK citizens, the floaters at least.
Or just look at it on here tonight, we should scrap the SNP now and form a new indy party, we should get Sturgeon to stand down and let one of the other far more gifted SNP take over.
Its a very dirty business this UK unionism in Scotland but it wont work, it’s certainly failed in every other country England was in “union” with:D
How many of their precious principles will the DUP have to sacrifice in order to prop up a Tory Government.
They’re weak, and we’ll see them weaken.
Feel_Loon, do you have a link?
colin alexander @ 12:55,
I’ll try to keep it short. I’m not a member of the SNP, as it happens, so don’t feel any special need to defend it, but I just don’t recognise (to put it politely) your criticism, which in fact goes way beyond what Craig Murray wrote.
You seem to discount the present circumstances entirely. Maybe you should re-read Stu’s article above.
To reiterate what another poster said upthread to someone or other, if you really support indy (hmmm) but don’t like the SNP, find another party that will do it for you instead.
And that’ll be which one, exactly…?
And don’t forget that Herald / BMG poll which I can’t quickly find, with the result that a Tory Government would increase support for Indy by 10 points I think it is.
Which in a short while means Indy sitting at 57%, I think.
I’ll take that for a Scots Pound.
And don’t forget that Herald / BMG poll which I can’t quickly find, with the result that a Tory Government would increase support for Indy by 10 points I think it is.
Which in a short while means Indy sitting at 57%, I think.
I’ll BUY that for a Scots Pound.
Just read the Craig Murray article linked to earlier in the thread, I have to say I agree almost entirely with his viewpoint.
Colin
We need a party in power in order that the opportunity to secure independence takes place. Once in power that party also has to govern the country and do it well. The SNP secured a vote in 2014 and it was up to all of us to win it. Many of is worked our socks off for that vote and it was heartbreaking to come so close. We can’t rush straight into another vote. We are going to have to treat the electorate with respect and carefully frame our arguments.
Federalism or sovereignty in the Union or whatever isn’t likely to fly with the current government, such as it is, although with Corbyn who knows. You might get what you ask for and from that position I can’t see us moving on from there.
The rationale of a second vote so soon after the first is that circumstances have changed. Until we see what Brexit actually means there is not a huge amount to say about a second referendum. The only reason it is discussed incessantly is because it is the only safe topic for Davidson to talk about, the rest of the Tory party policies being as attractive as a night out with Katie Hopkins and Piers Morgan.
We need to retain a pro-independence majority in Holyrood and that means governing well and seen to be governing well. We have four years to re-establish those credentials, form an understanding and argument in relation to Brexit and gauge the public sentiment to both domestic and international issues. The whole deal has to be right and timed correctly.
We are fighting against all the Unionist parties and the MSM in particular the BBC. If there is a crack in that armour then our prospects will increase markedly. It is easy to be frustrated but people hate change and this radical change… that we got 45% was amazing, that the polls suggest that 45% has stuck solid for 3 years is equally amazing. We have to hang in there because there are no easy fixes.
Molly @ 00:57,
Hi Molly. No, I don’t “do” Twitter (other than occasionally following-up a link), and also I’m shamefully ignorant of the writer you mention. So you are very welcome to enlighten me (and others too, I dare say) on this thread, or on another as convenient…
Poor Unionists. They are certainly trying hard to rewrite history. I think they had bet on a Tory win in Scotland. But they are bitterly disappointed and having to talk up what they can.
Meanwhile, with 8 days to go till BREXIT talks with Mr Barnier and Mr Junker, it seems the arrangement with the fragrant DUP is not yet agreed. And Boris Johnston is ready to pounce, for the sake of the country, of course. Strong and stable.
Thanks for your thoughts yesindyref2, I like many am still trying to digest what happened this week. Nothing is still in politics, it is in constant flux as we know all too well.
I truly hope that Nicola has the best strategists around her at this point. Whether that is enough is up for debate. I am wondering though if perhaps someone who is more straight to the point and media savy could be a better suited leader at this point.
Don’t get me wrong though, I think Nicola has done an amazing job mostly but the demonising in the press does have an effect. A new leader like Jeane Freeman who comes across more as a hard hitting woman who really knows what she’s talking about would not let media or politicians away so much with their nonsense.
I still have the memory of her handing Andrew Neil his arse back on a plate. Amazingly talented woman who reminds me of Blondie for some reason but with dark hair of course. She’s a strong woman for sure.
Information and exchanges of views would be so much more profitable and helpful if the BBC and other media were balanced in their reporting. Even enjoyable. Just dreaming.
I am very reluctant to say it, but Craig Murray’s case is compelling. But then, we’ve known for some time that things at the top of the SNP have not been right. Gender equality in the Cabinet has overtaken raw talent and ability. Most of all, Ruth Davidson dominates Nicola, in both Holyrood and on television. The SNP are currently winning, but Ruth Davidson is bossing the park. The substitutes will be critical.
Faulty memory, that BMG poll makes it about 51-53%, based on 43-45% at the moment. But at 47% from other polls, if the same proportion of NO voters would be more in favour, that makes it 55%.
http://www.thenational.scot/news/15334361.Most_Scots_will_back_indy_if_Conservatives_win_today___s_election/?action=success#comments-feedback-anchor
State of this mob…
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uL6ecVbWu9k&feature=youtu.be
@Col
Fitness or otherwise of the leader of the party is always something that should be open for discussion, and in fact that leader should either read such comments, or have someone whose duty it is, not just to read blog articles, but scan through the comments such as yours, mine and others, and pass back a daily digest. I doubt that’s done.
What seems to happen instead is the high-heidyins talk amongst themselves in a close ivory tower environment, and often don’t have a clue what’s happening in the real world.
“Ivory Tower” isn;t my expression, I’ve heard it and read it all too often about the SNP upper hierarchy. Which shouldn’t be a hierarchy at all, of course.
Like Craig Murray I sat on my hands during the campaign for fear of upsetting the apple cart, there were many postings ready to go I just deleted. Probably for the best all the same, as after all, the SNP did win with 35 seats, whereas they could have lost to the Tories by one or two. That WOULD have been a disaster.
yesindyref2 @ 01:43,
It’s one thing to re-assess tactics and strategy in the light of events, quite another to get in a panic and call for heads to roll.
I agree in general with Craig Murray, and other posters upthread. I’m not a “back-burner” by any stretch of the imagination. The aquiescence during the campaign in a media onslaught on devolved issues was self-evidently an error; simple reliance on an excellent record in government was always going to be difficult given the long-term misinformation campaign run by the three dwarves, amplified by a very willing media.
Lessons are there to be learnt, and I’m sure will be. But wild accusations of an out-of-touch leadership and calls for changes at the top don’t help, and are simply playing the unionists’ game, I’m afraid.
FGS, keep the heid.
Folks keep in mind that the SNP are up against all of the Unionist parties as well as the MSM manipulating events and interviews to put them in as poor a light as possible.This has been going on from Day 1 and will continue until the SNP are no more.We are a threat to the Union and they are all against us
p.s. We have not lost an election since Christ left Dumbarton
@RJS
If you re-read my posting, and one before, you’ll see that I think Sturgeon is still the best to stay leader (and FM).
As for changes at the top I’m not talking about people, I’m talking about attitude – and listening.
FGS, read what my postings say 🙂
I’m reading a lot of despondency here. Labour would have LOVED TO HAVE LOST as badly as the SNP. The SNPs campaign was competent but failed in any way to connect in any dynamic way with the grass roots YES movement. This will need to be addressed but to borrow a phrase ,now is not the time.
Even during what was laughingly described as the scottish”leaders” debate when the unionist Troika were trumpeting ” No appetite in Scotland for a 2nd referendum” Nichola failed to point out that twenty thousand people demonstrated in Glasgow. Now the YES movement is used to being ignored by the slavering attack dogs of the media but to be pointedly ignored by the leader of the party that THEY put in power is unconscionable. It was sectarian and arrogant in the extreme.
The SNP will never win independence ON THEIR OWN.
That said we all need to give ourselves a reality check. Did any of us seriously expect to repeat the
2015 election. If we did it’s tantamount to elevating optimism to the level of fantasy.
I will say this again because it’s worth repeating. In every city town and village in Scotland every voter in every polling booth was given the clear choice between one party offering the Scots the opportunity to choose their own future and THREE other parties who would deny them that right. This choice was trumpeted daily and hourly from almost every orifice of the mass media for the entirety of the election campaign.
Those three parties LOST big time. The ONE party offering that choice won MORE seats than the other THREE parties COMBINED. Against those odds I can’t understand why we are not CELEBRATING.
We should be organising the party to end all parties. The SNP can put independence on the back burner if the like the YES movement won’t
BBC Scotland Tells Lies says:
11 June, 2017 at 12:00 am
K1
“Dont fuckin start me bitch…”
Or What?
A quick update then ma tuppence worth…
The SNP people,that I made aware that …..a man was leaving the polling station with a hand full of postal votes, which he was putting in the boot of his car…..are taking the issue further.
I have said that I think it’s a police matter and that they can give my name to them if they want….will keep everyone informed.
As to if this is just N.Lanarkshire & how long has this been what happens.
As for the Election it’s self….
I thought Nicola did very well to avoid the Independence questions,she stuck too her guns that this was a Westminster Election.
I don’t see that she had much choice,if she had attempted an answer the VERY next question would be…”what currency” ect ect..
So she was I think correct to keep it all low key and save the inspiring stuff for Indy ref 2.
Also if the rev is correct (and he usually is) and this was a coordinated campaign with high levels of planning and probably funding,no amount of dazzling campaigning would have stopped the results we got.
But if we would have, to coin a phrase, “shown our Indy hand “then they will have time to counter it when the time comes.
I also thought that Nicola’s statement about having a think about Indy ref 2,a question she must have known was coming,was more to do with heading of the “see whit ah mean disnay matter whit happens,the wummans obsessed with Indy ref 2” narrative.
She has that mandate and can say “after careful consideration I am convinced we need a referendum”, any time she likes, although I would put money on her not having gone for a wander through the Caringorms first,as inspiring as they are.
We still don’t know for sure what the motive behind this election was,and the coordination the rev is taking about, I would have said takes long term planning.
Was it really about us all along….who knows….who cares we won.
So I actually think that the results we got are worth celebrating.
And now we know how they plan to defend their union, those seat’s that were close are next I should think,
If there’s another Election soon.
But they didn’t get it all their own way….. this DUP thing,will I think horrify many.
We just need to frame that as something else that Westminster will stoop to,and not May/Torries, which Jeremy can fix.
Corbin IMHO is the Trogen horse to give the illusion that the people had the power to stop the elites when they have had enough and stop a revolt.
As to what did I learn from all of this for our Independence….
We absolutely need cast iron articles in our new constitution, forbidding any and all religions being involved in or catered to by politics.
A truly secular document.
Backed up by the method to change anything in the Constitution, end’s it’s process in referendum.
I know that’s no exactly what is in anyone’s mind right now,but I think we are seeing up close and personal,how religion and politics not only shouldn’t mix but actually it’s much better if they couldn’t mix.
So here’s hoping that enough people agree when the time comes to lobby for what we want and we never have to hear this is a Christian country pish….or the Muslims will take over shit.
But rather we can say with confidence…canny happen here pal.
Robert j Sutherland I’m up early but basically I asked an expert ( my daughter ) what all this means. The Rev can probably explain it better but the gist of it was, she pointed to the kitchen wall and said , imagine that is just line after line of automated messages being sent to you.
You can buy them apparently and all they are doing is sending messages to promote or interrupt or bombard you with either a message or distraction , then multiply them .
What JJ Patrick was saying is, what’s happening in Scotland is the worst he’s seen in a long time. Hopefully he’ll give further detail soon.
He’s a former policeman and whistleblower and writes on byline.
When I was writing the above, a couple of questions occurred to me- does anyone know which senior SNP member is supposed to have spoken to our friends in the media which kicked all the stuff off about Nicola?
Convenient if A Salmond gone, Angus Robertsons gone who do they turn on next ?
Why is Ruth Davidson getting so much coverage ?
@ Liz g: “canny happen here pal.”
Totally agree. But we are already a secular society; the absurd hate crime laws introduced by Blair mean that all you have to do is replace ‘religion’ with ‘race’ (how many times must folk have thought, ‘but X isn’t a race, it’s a religion’) and hey presto religion and politics get mixed under the guise of something else.
That law causes more hate and division than it ever ameliorates.
Agreed with previous posters that this has been a long time in planning. It seems that Davidson attended 2 Privy Council meetings, on July 15th and October 12th. Present at both meetings was Arlene Foster of the DUP – yet no representative from the Holyrood Government so far as I can see.
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_current_members_of_the_British_Privy_Council
The Ruth Davidson party has now become de-toxified in Scoland. The idea that they could become autonomous under that vile person will detoxify them further from Westminster.
Th SNP must now go on the attack, every minute of every day, every time that the chibless teats vote with the Tories.
We have seen weekly attacks on the SNP MP’S expenses from their right wing facebook groups – despite the fact that their expenses have been 1/2 or even 1/3rd of their predesessor. Guaranteed that these numb nuts will be bursting the 100k ceiling for expenses easily.
The Tories have proved that the constant drip,drip drip of propoganda works, so let’s play them at their own game.
And finally, let’s see where the money came from to finance the Tory campaign.
Something tells me there would have been some from the Conservative Friends of Israel (given the fact that 10 MSP were their guests in Israel on a fact finding mission in 2016).
https://www.google.ae/url?sa=t&source=web&rct=j&url=/amp/s/caltonjock.com/2017/04/12/davidsons-small-troop-of-msps-overturn-20-years-of-scottish-support-for-the-palestinians-in-favour-of-israel-then-off-they-go-to-the-golan-heights-at-whose-cost-to-celebrate-their-victory/amp/&ved=0ahUKEwjZ-vulgbXUAhWBKsAKHfPiCpkQFggoMAU&usg=AFQjCNFNzXIUIotEDeQXoEjY_9Lu-yGE6w&sig2=TcCODkTqIXX9xzE_PZFfbw
Amidst the crazy events of the last few days I have found peace to think.
There is not one word of Nicola Sturgeon’s address after the vote forcing Brexit on Scotland that I would now want to hear changed.
Nicola spoke as a great stateswoman, with compassion and excellent common sense. She spoke for me then and has done ever since.
She spoke for Scotland and all who live here. I know there are many in other parts of the UK who wished they had her to represent them too.
If there are folk who now want to suggest that her commitment to Independence or to the best possible future for the people of Scotland or to suggest that our First Minister and the SNP as a whole was in any way lacking in their conduct and choices in the run up to this farcical GE, then I would suggest that I doubt that any other body of people could have done better or with greater sincerity.
Nicola Sturgeon is blessed to stand on the shoulders of giants and that includes the many many footsoldiers of which so many of us here are part.
Our Nicola is one of the greatest political giants this World will ever see.
I witnessed an SNP campaign that was honest and decent and astute, putting forward sound and fair policies that most certainly could be achieved with the resources available and that highlighted real and truly life enhancing (in some cases, life saving) policies that have already been carried out.
I saw a dazlingly happy and loving campaign where people from all walks of life and in many many cities, towns and villages the length and breadth of Scotland were meeting our First Minister and their current and future MPs, not only able to talk and be heard but able to share hugs and personal messages and photos.
There was no fear on the part of our SNP campaign, just honest to goodness human contact. These are people we can approach and confer with about every one of our daily concerns right through to the most crucial World wide issues.
I witnessed a fine campaign, and in the moment that campaign spoke for me.
I look forward to Nicola Sturgeon,who is a World reknowned politician, an approachable, brave and above all, compassionate human, leading Scotland to Independence.
It was interesting to see on friday night that on both QT and
HIGNFY The Daily Heil was both attacked and ridiculed for what it is namely a racist xenophobic bogroll of hatred and lying.
Additionally it is now obvious that T. May is an object of ridicule and her position of PM untenable.
A big hand to Nicola Sturgeon, the pressure from the media, Pacific Quay & the Three Stooges has been immense, still she kept her cool, battled on & won this election. For posters/fools on here to demand instant answers, & all their toys back in the pram, from a woman who must be totally knackered is a fuckin disgrace. SNP policy is determined by the party conference not Nicola Sturgeon! Who can match her? relentless pressure on the education front did its work. I despair of the NEEPS who rejected Salmond & Robertson, my own constituency had the worst SNP MP in the disgraced MP McGarry but still the peeps kept the heid & the faith & stuck to the SNP. Salmond should mebbes sell the ducks & organise the flitting back to West Lothian where he belongs, a seat will surely be found. Robertson ditto. Must be great to have a big beast for an MP, (Kerevan would have done me!) Magrit Curran’s the nearest I ever got!
Dugdale has been a disgrace so Slab have been shite thus! Jeremy saved her bacon. Situation vacant for a failed brickie fae Fauldhoose?
“Smart Boy Wanted but not too Smart!”
U have to hand it to Ruth, she saved the English Tory bacon, landed everybody in the shite, & herself & Mundell now have to sit round the table at Downing Street with clowns who would have them burned as witches! nice eh?
@Al Dossary
Sturgeon, Salmond and Angus Robertson are members of the Privy Council, probably others too.
I’m only now feel able to contribute my tuppence worth:
I read Craig Murray’s article and he’s completely right. The SNP were incoherent in their response to the blunt instrument of the combined Unionist front of ‘No Surrender to the Ref2’ led by the triumphirate of Mooth, Lezie and Wullie the sheep worrier.
What we have experienced is what I predicted years ago was inevitable: the dialectical contradictions between British branch parties and the SNP becoming a simple binary choice of Britnat or Scotnat. Unfortunately because of incompetence at the top of the SNP in first not having any strategy for dealing with the BBC and backpeddling on Independence and Brexit and opting for a ‘strong voice’ ( how can less than 56 seats be stronger? never mind 35? ) with more of the ‘managerial’ approach,and they were caught in the headlights.
Can I remind everyone that the SNP lost 427,000 votes from 2015. The Tories gained 324,000. I accept there were many different ebbs and flows in different constituencies, but that looks like a straight shift. As for ‘Tartan Tories’ returning to the fold, well the N.E. hasn’t been tory for a long time and in the S.W. and Borders only DFS & G has been naturally tory in the past. I worry that the demographics discussed in earlier threads are at work i.e RUK settlers sticking it to the SNP as well as disallusioned SNP supporters looking elsewhwere for illusory ‘leadership’. no matter how inconceivable to the rest of us.
I’ve thought for a long time that the likes of Tasmina ahmed sheik, Fiona Hyslop and yes Angus Robertson were not the right people to front the party. Jeanne Freeman, Mhari Black and Tommy Shepherd struck me as the combative types required to take on the BBC shysters like Glenn Campbell and Sarah Smith. I also believe that the SNP presents as too middle class and keen on PC subjects over bread and butter issues. Yes the Rape Clause is horrific, but how many people placed it high enough on their priorities? For instance, did you see the last PP Broadcast?They also ignored the fact that the RIC brought in many votes of the forgotten ‘schemes’ in 2014. These are the people who can give us the numbers over the bigots, farmers, settlers etc. They are the people that UKIP harvested in England..the dispossed and marginalised.
Finally, until the BBC is put to the sword in whatever legal or constitutional route that is viable, I’m not sure that we can defeat the British State which is now in full monolithic mode against us. The SNP should use every means to educate a majority of our population too lazy and too stupid to find out the difference between devolved and reserved powers. Also, they should be hammering home the historical treacheries visited on us..McCrone, the theft of the 6000 sq miles and God forbid ,…then oil. Did West of Shetland’s recent Klondyke get a mention anywhere in the campaign?…No. Change is required not complacency otherwise Scotland will indeed be become a ‘desert’.
The Election Collusion brigade have managed to topple Eck and Angus R. plus several of the leading SNP MPs with their evil conspiracy all helped by The BBC and their pals in the dead tree press.
Just one example was the non-story shouted from the rooftops for ages about Tasmina’s alleged scandalous financial problems.
What is now obvious is that they are trying to get rid of Nicola and there are even idiots helping this in the comments on Wings suggesting that she is not up to the job of Party Leader and FM.
They will only be satisfied if they manage to politically destroy the best female politician by a mile in the whole UK. This campaign started with stories in the media of Nicola’s declining popularity based on some extremely dubious polling allegedly showing that she was now less popular than the dwarves who lead the other parties.
What do Wingers think of who should now be SNP Commons Leader.
If it wasn’t for his recent marital indiscretions my choice would be Stewart Hosie and even allowing for that if he could dodge the slings and arrows directed at him over that he is a good performer with that precious quality gravitas.
@ gus1940: “HIGNFY…QT…Daily Heil”
Wow. Bleeding edge comment from the BBC there. It’s not like most people have thought that since…forever.
But at least the DM doesn’t try to extort people with the threat of imprisonment or a fine if you don’t want to fund their muck.
https://archive.is/DLuFp
Dearie me…this thread has certainly descended into a right old moan fest.
On the campaign strategy my MP was returned but only just to Westminster after a very low key campaign run along the lines of Labour in the 80’s where their vote in Scotland was weighed rather than counted.However what happened in key target seats for the Tories is what is baffling me.Alex and Angus out ffs??
As I said on the previous thread something has spooked the horses, but what exactly?
@gus1940
Possibly Tommy. With his origins he can speak to Labour as well, and even Tories like him.
Ghillie; Fred et al,
Well said, I totally agree. What the fcuk was going on here last night, have some people lost the place altogether?
Don’t let them divide and conquer us, we wingers must stick together at this time, debate, don’t berate.
Peace to All
My view is that the SNP should campaign for independence, always, and without any reticence. That’s after all what they exist for. If that’s unpopular, then so be it. I happen to think, however, that its easier to campaign when your message is strong and un-ambivalent, and that actually voters like that.
The Snp needs to learn the lesson of this election and analyse what went wrong and fix it.
We were beaten by the Tories targeting certain groups of people on social media.
We need to be the best and have the best people to dominate the field.
It isn’t cheap and it isn’t easy.
If we have to get someone and put the best people in a section of the party.
The party has the money and the policies, time to get them out there.
Good morning Smallaxe – there was an outbreak of concern trolling here last night but it seems to have cleared up.
Looking forward to another day of strong and stable Tory back stabbing today. Nana’s links will be here soon.
Oops spoke too soon. Wee reminder, the SNP WON the election in Scotland in a landslide. More seats than all the opposition parties combined.
Let’s not fall for the media spin. Ruth Davidson is being touted as the winner by the BBC. She’s a minor figure in Scottish politics. Soon, there will be another election. The Tories will be despised for the mess they are creating.
Just caught a bit of a discussion on BBC radio 5 live last night, with a Tory MP, Nigel Evans. What he had to say regarding N.Ireland is the kind of thing likely to make the IRA take up arms again. Anybody interested in N.Ireland should take a wee listen. (I don’t know the programme, just that it was a radio chat show on BBC radio 5 live, at around 1030-1100pm last night.
It was truly nuts the comments the tory MP was making, essentially implying the DUP are a box of fluffy kittens and the that Sinn Fein are not welcome. It sounded like he didn’t care one bit for the N.Ireland peace process, or the concerns folk have over the paramilitary links with the DUP.
In short what it boiled down to was, unionist paramilitaries are good (because they support the UK, Britannia etc), and any other paramiliataries are bad, because they don’t.
It was the kind of tosh the Tories used to spout in the 60’s and 70’s, stirring up the troubles.
Most people in N.Ireland enjoy the peace, and will be very angry at any politician making throwaway comments like I heard on 5 live last night.
Yesindyref2. Yes Tommy could be the man, I agree with your point regarding labour connection.
Its interesting that a few people have mentioned that the British establishment are going to grind down the independence idea with what basically amounts to an extended campaign of disinformation on every issue of scottish independence. Id even go so far as to outright illegal activities involving MI5. In short they are not going to let it happen.
Scotland is the last asset the British have. If the flight from the city of London to europe happens as expected due to Brexit then the British will be holding onto Scotland like a drowning man.
A few things need to happen:
1 – is what ive previously mentioned about the snp: stop attaching unnecessary crap to the party and stop alienating pro independence people who are NOT dreamy EU progressives.
2 – why is it a blogger who lives in Bath (if im correct?) is the only one giving consistently good arguments against the constant and obvious unionist pish? Their propaganda is of such an obviously hypocritical and sloppy kind that only a child (or a die-hard unionist) would fall for it. There needs to be a party effort to properly leverage social media against the barrage of union bullshit.
For the SNP its not about elections and mandates, it really is a battle for hearts and minds of the kind that most politicians havent experienced in the world.
Independence will not be coming off the table. SNP membership would go back to pre indyref numbers or less.
I’m not a member but will continue to vote SNP until Scotland is independent.
No amount of BBC spin can change the fact that the SNP won in Scotland.
All the unionist parties went to the polls on a no referendum ticket – and they lost big time.
So Panzermooth Davidson win lucky 13 seats in Scotland, calls it victory, then cements her Unionist credentials by demanding Independence from Westminster Tories.
You honestly couldn’t make it up.
Radio 4 is in propaganda mode for the DUP. It is trying to rehabilitate them as a real political party rather than a bunch of sectarian bigots.
No amount of whitewash will cover their triue n ature.
Good morning, Capella, I noticed all the trolling late last night and my heart sank. I haven’t read the whole thread yet as I was doing other things but I did see one of our own being called a “BITCH” this kind of insult must not be tolerated by any Winger. I for one think that insults of that nature have no place on this site.
Peace Always my Friend
sorry without sounding like a conspiracy theorist that’s why I was talking about the technology.If applied and targeted it is just as powerful as the msm.
Put it this way next election ( which may not be that far away) certain people could have their exact demographic / seats already lined up.
It’s much bigger than the newspapers /TV
I voted to Remain in the EU referendum. I am not interested in a “place at the Brexit table” I don’t want to have a Brexit. I want to remain in the EU.
I think that most of Independence for Scotland voters feel the same. Nicola Sturgeon and the SNP should be fighting for Independence and NOT a place at the Brexit table or the best Brexit deal for Scotland. There will NEVER be a “place at the table” or a “best deal”. The only deal Indy supporters want is Independence!
Forget about Brexit – leave that to England and Wales, it is what they voted for. We need to concentrate now, wholly, on Independence for Scotland.
Why would anyone who wants Independence care what the Brexit outcome will be? So why wait till then for Independence?
Just a few points,
1 people discussing or criticising the SNP strategy, are NOT personal attacks against the FM. I have said a lot, but not one bit of it is aimed at her personally, it is aimed at the strategy. I think NS is fine. I think others here raising concerns are also not talking about NS, but the strategy, so no need to come here to defend her, she is not under attack.
2. As far as Westminster goes, I think it should be Stewart hosie, no questions. He is excepotional in interviews and debates. Anything in the past, is in the past. I don’t think nowadays people really care about such things. Besides it will be on a caretaker basis, until the next election in a few months when Angus will be re-elected. 🙂
3. The SNP need urgently to get several of their MP’s/MSP’s trained up in media handling and getting the message across. It is they alone who should handle interviews. Too many times I have seen some cabinet members make a pigs ear of interviews, failing to get the KEY message across It cannot go on. No other party does it.
Ghillie , thanks for that!
I had been getting utterly down in the mouth reading much of what went before.
Dear Lord! What is wrong with you people? We won.
I know the MSM is in need of integrity and truth – I don’t see how it can be combatted by the SNP and Ms Sturgeon, as has been stated they hold the mics and the pens. Just one warranted display of utter rage and disgust by the person interviewed will result in even more SNP BAD headlines across this beautiful land of ours.
It is not the SNPs job to get the independence movement up and running – it’s ours.
@Yesindyref2,
Salmon, Sturgeon – yes I know they are privy counsel members – both due to their first minister position for example. But why Davidson? And who immediately after the EU referendum, and why Arlene Fraserburgh at the exact same meetings of the counself.
Have this feeling that,unless we are careful we (the SNP) will be revisiting the late 1970s, where after dramatic success (well its all relative) in 1974 we could not build on it because our simple message was lost in the face of intense anti-independence politicians and the British media.
We lost our momentum as we tried to play games according to Westminster rules.
Basically the SNP strategy was wrong and the Brit9sh Nationalists managed to kill off momentum independence for 30 years. Gordon Wilson was a disaster for the SNP. I remember.
Keep it simple from now on – we stand for Independence in Europe not dependency in Britain.
Now is the time for bravehearts not fearties!!
Spot-on Dave!
Every member of the Independence movement must learn to think Independence before making a decision in their lives as ordinary citizens, councillors and parliamentarians.
Our government must use its powers to create a Cabinet Secretary for Independence and let the Unionists howl from the sidelines.
We have four years before the next Scottish Elections to prepare the people for Independence
tatu3 at 0848am,
I have to say I agree with what you say. I do not buy into this whole ‘let’s get a seat at brexit talks’, or ‘let’s see how brexit looks’. I don’t want to leave the EU, period. That is how Scotland voted overwhelmingly too.
I often talk to folks who desperately do not want to leave the EU, and they are very frustrated at all this waiting and see nonsense. They want it stopped ASAP. They do not want brexit of any kind, no matter what the deal. They do not want to leave the EU at all,ever. They want it settled now.
Besides,Westminster will chew us up and spit us out. Any talk of us being involved, is game playing of the highest order. We saw that with the Smith commisssion, which was just one big long unionist p*ss take of Scotland.
Robert Louis;
Perfect sense, thank you.
Peace Always
All the toxic Tory/Unionists have done is, not only increased support for another Independence, but increased support to win it. The toxic Tory/Unionists and their pals in the ‘Press’ will have increased support not just for a second IndyRef but the support to win it. They have now won the battle but lost the war. Even Alex & Co will concede that is a price worth oaying. For a slight pause. Until the date is declare and the next IndyRef campaign gets going, Everything is lining up nicely. Just as Alex predicted. Another Tory dominated Gov in Westminster will increased Independence support. A wee rest for Alex & Co will be appreciated. Until the next IndyRef date is declared and the campaign begins.
The lost to the NE for a short while of Alex and SNP representation will be too much to bear for some, who will be even more angry and frustrated with the toxic Tory/Unionists, The Unionists have no doubt manipulated the electoral process. Get the electoral expenses checked completely and charges raised, where necessary.
A toxic Tory pygmy will in no way replace Alex as the majority know. The backlash against the Unionist will start now. The more the Press expose Davidson vacant coupon to public scrutiny. The more the Independence support will grow. They are actually doing SNP and Independence cause a favour in Scotland. The Tory/Unionists are a world laughing stock. The disgraceful Westminster governance is doing the SNP and Independence cause a favour in Scotland.
Not only does Nicola now have a mandate for another IndyRef. There will be increased support to win it. The Tory/Unionist corruption and duplicity has just increased support for Independence. Nicola and the SNP and the others should now go for it. The support will be there.
Everything good in the NE was done by Alex Salmond. Every investment in the area every improvement. Everything bad in the area was done by corrupt Unionists. Alex Salmond is a politican head and shoulders above any politician in the world. All investment in the area, funding etc was achieved by Alex Salmond and the SNP. The Unionists illegally cut public service and criminally wasted public money. Before the Unionists left the NE in an economic back water of no investment. Took £Billions from Scotland against the majority wishes and the public interest. To be squandered by Westminster Still do. £20Billion a year.
Davidson and the unlucky for some 13 Tory/Unionist elected will result in Ibdependence support in Scotland increase. They have just won the battle but lost the war. Even Alex will be happy with that. One of the best politicians in the world supported by the majority in Scotland. The Independence campaign just gets easier because of the toxic Tory/Unionists There is voter’s regret in the NE. Shock and horror. Anger and frustration. The toxic Tory/Unionist election will have increased Independence support.
The SNP – MP’s in Westminster are now in a stronger position than before. They hold the balance of power at Westminster in a hung Parliament. The Davidson carry on and involvement in the chaos will increase Independence support. Losing a few MP’s at Westminster is a price worth paying. Even they recognise that. They will be plenty busy when the next Indy campaign starts shortly. Sooner rather than later before the Tory/Unionists completely destroy the UK economy.
All the Unionist collusion has done has back fired. They have prevented a Labour majority or a Tory majority in Westminster and elected a few useless LibDem/Unionists. Davidson must secretly want an Independent Scotland. Her and her Party’s actions are doing everything to achieve it.
The SNP leader at Westminster. Doubt it will be Stewart Hosie. In consultation they will elect who the want.
The Tory/LibDem/Labour administration in the NE is a state of corruption. An illegal abuse of public money. Illegal contract dealing. Embezzlement of public money. Covered up with Unionist complicity. Even with Police involvement just covered up. Illegal expenses. Public contract awarding and corruption. Major embezzlement of public money. Essential services cuts and money wasted on corrupt overpriced contracts The usual Unionist way. The only reason most of them join a Unionist Party. They just get away with it. Leaving the majority angry and frustrated. Even voting them out gets nowhere. Another clone just regurgitates. A corrupt multimillionaire now in Holyrood corruptly looking out for public contracts. Enough is never enough. Not nice but dim. Having overcharged £Millions on local gov contracts, while essential services, education were cut. More corrupt illegal electoral expenses. Buying an election? Even with a Police involvement getting away with it. LibDem/Unionists for thirty years did nothing for the NE, except line their pockets. Now Lords and £Millionaires. £Billions of Oil revenues went south to be squandered and wasted by Westminster. The Unionist way. Useless. Illegal wars, banking fraud and tax evasion.
Keep voting SNP. Keep supporting and voting for Independence. Good things are going to happen sooner ather than later. As people in the NE are now going to find out. You don’t know what you have got up until you lose it. A slight blip. Then even more support for another Ref and Independence. The. better more equal, fair and prosperous Scotland. Everything in play. The Unionist corruption will reap the backlash. SNP governance in Scotland is the best there has ever been. The majority know it. Despite Unionist provocation, malicious, municipal lies and corruption.
Reading the headlines in The SH it would appear that the paper is in the process of abandoning its support for Independence.
Dorothy – of course we do not want our top people to act with ‘utter rage’ but the must have the ability to get their punches in when being attacked and to do so with style and panache rather than aggression.
This nice nice approach has failed – they are not Ghandi and it makes them out to be docile and rather stupid as they are not countering in nay coherent way.
In short their media performances have been pathetic – all of them, every time!!
So it must be the advice they are getting cause I know they can do it.
Time to ditch their ‘media advisors’ (and if I find out that that the hapless Blair Jenkins is anywhere near the party I will scream).
It is time for Tommy Sheppard to be given the job of Westminster leader. No harm given the DUP prominence for a rational Northern Irishman to have such a role rather than the DUP loony tunes being given free rein though that is not the primary reason for his appointment.
Tommy seems to see no need to replace Angus Robertson as Depute SNP leader which shows a consistency of approach with the basis on which he ran for the Depute job last year with the only change being the reversal of the 2 people fulfilling the roles of a Depute leader touring the country and Westminster leader leading the charge in Westminster.
He strikes me as an intelligent man capable of thinking both strategically and on his feet with unsurprisingly a great sense of humour.
I wonder if others agree that this would be a good move?
Achnababan and Graeme McCormick,
I couldn’t agree more. We are allowing ourselves to fall into the unionist trap of making independence an unmentionable subject, and as you say it lasted the last time for a long time.
When challenged ‘get on with the day job’, the response should be ‘I am getting on with the day job, which is protecting the people of Scotland and its economy from the damaging brexit Tory madness coming from Westminster. That is my day job’, instead of being defensive, and saying weak things like we’re not obsessed with independence and so on.
If we genuinely believe Scotland is better if independent, then freaking well say so. We cannot go on, letting unionists rubbish independence, and us not defending it, and making the case for it.
@ Molly – the manipulation of social media by billionaires with a political agenda – anti democratic – is part of the message of the Guardian article I’ve linked to recently. So I’ll link again!
http://archive.is/m8q9k
Gus 1940,
The Sunday Herald abandoned support for independence a very long time ago. Just another unionist rag.
smallaxe
good morning to you
I don’t swear but reading some of the posts above makes me want to. For goodness sake folks get a grip. This is exactly what our enemies want to see division in the indy camp.
Now is the time to come together and stay on message.
We have the mandate for indy2 and we have Nicola. Get behind her instead of bashing, don’t you think she has enough on her plate with the bbc and assorted clowns.
Links
http://indyref2.scot/the-snp-must-act-like-the-winners-they-are
https://www.commonspace.scot/articles/11147/robin-mcalpine-six-reasons-indy-supporters-feel-cheerful
https://itisintruthnotforglory.wordpress.com/2017/06/10/defiance/
http://scotgoespop.blogspot.co.uk/2017/06/it-would-be-historic-error-for-snp-to.html
https://mewsingoutloud.wordpress.com/2017/06/10/two-in-a-bed/
https://theorkneynews.scot/2017/06/09/victory-for-2-candidates-in-orkney-shetland/
UK: Top advisor told Hillary that David Cameron “recklessly” & “secretly” intervened in N. Ireland to get DUP MPs case of “hung Parliament”
https://twitter.com/wikileaks/status/873413805161816064
http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/jeremy-corbyn-queens-speech-labour-form-government-theresa-may-tory-party-election-result-hung-a7783256.html
http://zelo-street.blogspot.co.uk/2017/06/wheels-come-off-may-wagon.html
https://skwawkbox.org/2017/06/10/mays-coalition-cant-work-because-of-a-tory-law-badfridayagreement/
UK: ‘Pray the DUP away’ – Hundreds decry proposed Tory-DUP coalition, call May to step down
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0vvWPL6SSTs
‘Theresa May has absolutely no mandate here’: Sinn Féin’s Alex Maskey – BBC Newsnight
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Wiuiy8BxBLo&feature=youtu.be
Nana: Good morning. Thank you for your links.
Kettle’s on! Peace Always.
🙂
What do some people not understand? In the last Indy Ref. 2014. The majority voted NO. They were no doubt deceive but that is so. The SNP Gov for the whole of Scotland, They have to have a democratic mandate and achieve it. Scotland is a democracy. That is why they can’t declare UDI etc. The so called ‘Press’ etc, Can any Gov ban the internet beamed in from anywhere. Or is that desirable? The ‘Press’ is destroying itself. Losing £Billions. Turn it off. Unsubscribe from SKy etc. No not pay to be deceived. It is easy. The ‘Press’ is not succeeding. It is destroying itself. In no small part because of the Internet,
The SNP blew this campaign because they focused on constitutional matters by warning voters about the type of UK government we might get if May retained power.
Instead they should simplify their message from now on to purely economics; Britain’s crushing debt, Britain’s 3rd world levels of productivity, Britain’s woefully inadequate pensions, Britain’s expensive transport infrastructure, Britain’s housing shortage, Britain’s disproportionately costly domestic fuel, Britain’s sloppy regulatory control of banks & the media.
They have a collossal back catalogue of miserable performance to focus on yet seem to forever be on the back foot, defending the control of the tiny share of money they actually have.
Fucking waken up Ms. Sturgeon.
James Patrick again warning us of the establishment’s dark arts
https://twitter.com/J_amesp/status/873662279010717697
http://bellacaledonia.org.uk/2017/06/10/panzer-division/
https://www.rt.com/uk/391809-petition-against-torydup-coalition/#.WTyqXpZXQyo.twitter
http://www.friendsofeurope.org/future-europe/frankly-speaking-mays-bungled-election-opens-the-way-to-a-soft-brexit/
Nana,
Read my post at 0853am.
I do get what you are saying, but perhaps some things for a short time do need said. Otherwise nobody knows. I have repeatedly bitten my tongue during elections to avoid helping our unionist lying friends, but we need to have a say.
I personally am not happy at the stance on the EU. I want to stay in the EU, not the ‘single market’, or ‘EFTA’, but the EU, as we are now. That is a simple clear message. I don’t want a ‘brexit deal’ All this waiting and see stuff, is just confusing to ordinary folk, and does not make the FM look strong. People are angry about brexit, and are looking to the SNP to keep us in. If we are not careful,Westminster will chew us up and spit us out, as they did with Smith.
Please also note, that is not an attack on the FM, but on strategic direction. I think NS is fine – no criticism there.
@BBC Scotland Tells Lies says: 11 June, 2017 at 12:00 am
“Dont fuckin start me bitch.
PLONK!
There are some on this forum who need to have a reality check. The SNP won 37%, The 3 parties fighting on a no indy2 ticket got over 60%.
Brexit negotiations start in a weeks time. Every commentator is predicting a disaster, whether a hard or soft Brexit.
Boris Johnston is going to pe PM.
Indy2 is only deferred, it won’t go away. Circumstances out with the control of the Independence movement will dictate when it comes back and I’d predict 2 years.
Everyone is upset, angry, disappointed at the moment. Chill out and watch the disaster about to unfold.
Folks,
Two broad topics worth mentioning here in one post.
Firstly, my experience as an SNP member..
In the aftermath of the 2015 General Election, the SNP had a massive opportunity. A massive influx of new members, a huge resource.
The subsequent SNP conferences were set to be big popular affairs. I have been talking to groups about how money works for the past 5 years and have attended a number of Scottish greens conferences, doing talks and hosting stalls.
As an SNP member I approached the SNP in order to host a stall at last years conference. I was told it would cost £3000 (that’s for a member). Obviously that was a non-starter.
eventually commonweal hosted a conference over the clyde which was well attended and we managed to get a stall and workshop over there. Lots of people with good ideas which funnily enough would sit very well with a progressive corbyn led labour party – people the SNP basically dismissed.
Big business was over the river being woo’d by the SNP.
The party tried to win over the mainstream press and the very influential people that when push comes to shove will always back the UK establishment. In doing so I believe they ignored some of the amazing vibrant ideas coming from new supporters
The YES campaign offered a real alternative to neoliberal Britain. The labour party was moving rightward if anything and its easy to see why more left leaning people saw it as the ONLY alternative. Corbyn offered another alternative and people understandably took it. I was tempted myself.
Second Point..
In nature, after upset comes opportunity. When a brush fire wipes out a range of species, it paves the way for another. When a patch of soil is left bare, opportunistic weeds find their niche. Alternatively the farmer can fill the niche first with functional crops that suits his/her purpose. Nature abhors bare soil.
In the same sense, after a political upheaval comes opportunity. Down south is chaos and that is the SNPs opportunity. Holyrood continues as normal and there is opportunity.
So how does the SNP get the corbyn YES voters back?
Well by implementing some of his policies (not the ones SNP don’t already do already!). example – a Scottish national investment bank, working group looking into complimentary currency (NEF have already done much of the work FFS!)
I DARE SLAB to oppose these policies in Holyrood (simply due to their hatred of SNP).
Whilst the tories implement some of the DUP flat earth policies, the SNP could be bringing in some of the Scottish Greens progressive policies – Land value tax for example.
Now is the time to put these things in place during this state of flux.
Without the power to create money (Scotland doesn’t have a magic money tree, westminster does), the SNP have to make it patently clear that their economic powers are hugely constrained. They have to shout that from the rooftops.
Meantime this is an opportunity whilst London devours itself to make big progressive changes. Change will happen either way and so it really depends if the SNP wants to drive or be driven.
Peffers
Dont fuckin start me ya wanker.
There you go Peffers, your very own “Don’t fuckin start…”
Good morning Smallaxe. Looks like it’s going to be a nice day.
I have a list pf chores for him indoors, he’d better be ready to roll up his sleeves. lol
Robert Peffers;
Good morning, sir, I hope you are well this fine day.
Peace Always
Robert Louis says:
I do not buy into this whole ‘let’s get a seat at brexit talks’, or ‘let’s see how brexit looks’.
I think the tactic has been to be seen to explore all options to respect both Indyref and EURef results, even though we all know we will be ignored, in order to demonstrate that Westminster ignores Scotland. Same goes for the Scotland Act farce etc.
Then Indyref2 can be called saying, look we have done everything we possibly can and theres no choice but to let the people decide.
I think the GE17 message was a continuation of that strategy but it just looked weak and uninspiring. Maybe its run its course.
PPB was weak and uninspiring, it seemed a lost opportunity of 5 mins of uninterrupted airtime, and what we got was 5 mins of soft focus kiddies.
I think its wrong to be aggressive, but at the very least we could inform voters.
Robert Louis @ 9.03
I’m on board with that, I want independance in Europe too.
But if I was the first minister of Scotland, I would have to consider that Scotland might return a No vote,they have before!
Therefore it would be irresponsible not to try and make sure as best I could that Scotland got as good an arrangement as possible.
I don’t think that she can just stay out of the process,and not forgetting that they are going to pull rank anyway and say no,but they should be put in the position of having to actually say it.
Also as an aside…..did we no just loose our Foreign secretary,and our most senior Westminster politician?
Just before the Brexit talks begin…. funny that!!!
Would everyone stop acting as though we lost the election, we did not, we won handsomely. Some are beginning to allow tory rhetoric into their heads, RD did not win she garnered some anti-indy support and that is only right in some ways remember the result of indy but we are still way ahead with 35 seats the split in the vote is still on our side and do not forget we have a triple mandate.
Let the tories destroy themselves as surely they will and if they elect BJ to PM that will just be another nail in their coffin. The labour manifesto in London mirrored the snp so keep saying snp is more labour than labour and JC would get more support from snp than labour in many quarters, eg scottish labour and parliamentary labour party and this is a known fact.
Time is on our side 2020/21 and indy will be ours.
@G H Graham
9:25 am
I agree, we should show how our neighbours in the EU provide superior benefits and pensions to what the uk gives and show how by changing how we run a country for all rather than the 1% we can achieve this.
Link below compares uk with other countries
https://archive.is/N9ZLo
I don’t mind the trolling, the genuine frustration, the careless ill temper… Get it out your system folks. Clear the air. If there are spooks here, reveal yourselves. Come one come all. Sometimes, just sometimes, when you throw everything into the air, when it falls back to Earth you suddenly find something that sparkles. The important thing is to divorce rash and hasty thoughts from rash and hasty actions. Take it canny.
And there a few sparkles landing.
Theresa May is now strapped in to the electric chair she only sat on before for the Brexit negotiations. Not proud and regally enthroned like Britannia on 50p, but haggard and compromised, propped up by the political wing of a terrorist organisation who will demand an Irish Brexit Border more like Gazza than Lichtenstein, and propped up commercially by gun running deals with the Saudis. Her noble Lieutenant in Scotland who preaches Conservative and Unionist credentials, but oh Lordy, Lordy, she doesn’t like Westminster policy so now screams for Independence for her gay wee province of Hypocrisia. (and yes, that gay reference is deliberately ambiguous. It’s relevant, because it’s something she’s stuck with which is wholly incompatible with cuddling up to the DUP, just as Scotland is stuck with its incompatibilities in cuddling up with Westminster – I don’t judge people of their orientation, but I very much do judge them on their scalding hypocrisy about Independence).
The BBC has stiffed us all again. They pulled strings to get Scotland to elect a UKIP slug for an MEP, and they’ve done it again to bring back the curse of Westminster Tories. Was it the BBC? Oh yes. Panzermooth was never off your televiewers, but she is a Holyrood MP discussing Westminster issues, while the SNP national Leader was boxed in by devolved arguments. Where was Mundell? Where was the mouse from the Ministry? The BBC are already at it again, trying to convince us 13 out of 59 seats is victory for the Tories. Yeah, just like Frank Bruno beat Mike Tyson. When will we ever learn eh? Well now. How about now? Let’s learn it now. Let is be learned! The BBC is the enemy. It lies. It cheats. It is a Media of occupation.
And the SNP? Well can you say? Wins a landslide of 56 seats when they try, and wins a landslide of 35 seats without trying… and all to sit in the powerless echo chamber of Westminster. Now we know an SNP deluge of wall to wall yellow returned to Westminster actually delivers us nothing. High water mark has no road off the beach. We know now our Independence will never be conceded, nor our aspirations even respected. If we want it, it’s our business. We must win it and take it, but here’s a thing, we don’t need to set one foot further South than Gretna.
This whole General Election was a sideshow. It’s purpose and objective seemed as arbitrary and ill judged as every other initiative launched by Theresa May, and the consequences just as f___ed up for everybody.
Take some rest people. Hangovers do pass. And a week from now, we will hear the plink, plink, fizz of Brexit negotiations beginning. Make mine a Bloody Mary. Hold the ‘r’.
I’ll get pelters for this one, but who cares?
Some have said they see no merit in the SNP taking seats at WM. I’d go one further.
The SNP should not contest WM seats if there is another election soon. But only IF this could be achieved:
Nicola Sturgeon should go straight to Mr Corbyn and tell him: “We like what we see with you. Your policies have much in common with the SNP. But, your Scottish anti-SNP Blairites: Dugdale, Murray etc cost you the election with their pro-Tory talk.
You seem to recognise the Scottish Parliament should be sovereign.
Here’s a deal: If there is another GE within a year or two, the SNP field no candidates in the next GE, so the anti-Tory vote is not split. We give Labour a free hand.
But Labour must put in their manifesto that Scotland’s place in the Union is reformed, empowering Holyrood as sovereign in all Scottish matters, including constitutional matters. That WM is no longer sovereign over Scotland – in anything.
This would mean that Scotland decides which powers are devolved to WM or retained. Scotland would have the power to hold indi-referendums. They can decide anything they want, like a real parliament, not a subservient mickey-mouse pretend parliament.
An attempt at a “progressive partnership” that NS talks of should be done BEFORE any election, if it’s possible to achieve one.
Sending SNP MPs to WM is a waste of time anyway; despite their best efforts, the reality is it achieves nothing.
Nana, grateful for all your hard work in finding the links you provide, I look for them every morning. Today I particularly want to thank you for Robin McAlpine’s article, there is so much sense and hope in it which I really needed this morning.
Blessings be upon your house.
Radio Scotland pulling out all the stops this morning. We’ve had Andrew Collier and Jim Sillars, the thoughts of Kenny McKaskill and Alex Reid. Margaret Curran on next. That’s when I switched it off.
Guess what – Nicola should take a back seat and take Indyref2 off the table.
Total panic seems to have set in. Probably because there will another election along soon. Try to sell Boris Johnston as the new PM.
Pure parody of a government.
Meanwhile, Mr Junker is waiting patiently over in Brussels.
@ BBC Scotland tells lies
Go easy on Peffers, man. Please.
I don’t think indyref2 should be taken off the table. Why give these people a victory? If we continue then we show that all the campaigning by yoons in the election was just a lot of impotent hot air. At any rate, a lot depends on what happens regarding Brexit and the ConDUP coalition. If it turns out as disastrous as looks likely, we could just find things falling into our lap.
Nana @ 9-14am
“Now is the time to come together and stay on message.
We have the mandate for indy2 and we have Nicola. Get behind her instead of bashing, don’t you think she has enough on her plate with the bbc and assorted clowns.”
Well said, Nana, we are idiots to be fighting amongst ourselves – WE WON, remember!!
We’ve had temporary setbacks, but what ‘movement’ in history has not?
Sit back a while and let May destroy herself, our time will still come.
How about we sit back for a wee while and watch all this unravell?
DUP are mired in sleaze over the £0.75 BN fuel subsidy con, they are incapable of governing Northern Ireland in partnership wit nationalists and the partyhold views on religion and society that most find completely alien and disgusting.
The disappointing result was because the opposition had one message only, stop democracy whilst the SNP had to defend 10 years in government, managing on a declinng budget under uk imposed austerity.
The result was compounded by the press and bbc.
Also we are not forceful in rebutting falsehoods put into the public domain by the opposition or bbc and press.
But let’s be clear, the opposition in Scotland would give their collective right hand to be where the SNP are.
This is a temporary, but nevertheless disappointing set back we must learn from quickly. We must wrestle back the initiative as the first step and adopti a more combative approach to the opposition and press / bbc.
Can I just reinforce the message from Molly and Nana above. The internet is awash just now with unionist bots. When you argue with an obvious Troll, you could be arguing with a machine. Waste of time.
https://twitter.com/J_amesp/status/873662279010717697
It is a sign of the wild panic spreading through the Unionist forces.
After being at the verge of tears for 2 days due to the result of the election, finally I have regained enough strength to actually bring myself to start reading Wings again. Now, when the grieving process is well on course, I admit I am incredibly confused as to what the result of this election actually means.
I agree with some posts in this thread and others that this election was not about ‘increasing the Tory majority’ at all.
They may have sold it like that to some gullible backbenchers in the Tory party, perhaps reluctant to risk losing the majority, as they actually did, but I most certainly did not believe that porky.
For a while I thought it was to do with the election funding fraud. But now, I firmly believe this election was all about diluting the SNP representation at Westminster and they have achieved that: this is the only explanation for Labour and Tories running completely independent campaigns in Scotland versus the rest of the UK.
I think the writing was on the wall the day Ms Sturgeon announced the vote in HOlyrood, because the ‘now is not the time’ was not going to last long as an excuse, they needed another one.
In fact, I would go beyond this. They specifically targeted the biggest voices of the SNP in Westminster Salmond and Robertson, in a desperate attempt to gag the SNP. And we like it or not, they have achieved both aims: reducing the SNP MPs at Westminter and remove the loudest voices. Labour and LibDems were all on it up to their armpits and sooner or later the electorate is going to wake up to this.
As to the many posts here and other threads that claim that we have to be positive because the SNP won the election, I would say, well, what exactly did they win this time? They fought in a platform against the tories and from where I am standing, I think they failed: they lost lots of seats to the tories, including the 2 most high profile ones in Westminster.
Others say that because the unionists fought in a platform against independence, having 35 MPs means that the unionist lost. Well, I would love to believe that but unfortunately I don’t and the reason why I don’t is because the SNP refused to fight on a platform for independence. So we cannot now claim that this was what this vote means.
I am depressed and very disappointed because I feel this election has been a wasted opportunity for the independence movement and I am annoyed at the SNP for wasting that opportunity.
If the unionists insisted in fighting on a platform of independence, I think the SNP should have risen to the challenge and fight on that platform. Only then we would know how strong the independence movement stands today. They may have incurred heavy losses, but at least the people knew what the vote was about. As it is, how many people pro YES has voted to parties like the LibDems or Labour ‘because this was not a vote for independence’ and because they actually thought that if 56 SNPs in Westminster mean nothing to stop things like Trident or even gain a seat in the Brexit negotiations, why bother voting for them anymore? Had the SnP campaigned on a independence platform we may have got those votes.
So where do we go from here? If UDI was not declared when the SNP held 56 out of 59 seats, then it is clear that they will never do it. So that option with the SnP is out of the equation. 56 MPs were not sufficient to secure ‘permission’ for a referendum, legally voted for in Holyrood, the Parliament of Scotland either. 56 MPs at Westminster have been unable to hold the feet to the fire of Ruth Davidson, Kezia Dugdale and Rennie when they refused to accept the vote for the referendum in Holyrood. So again, what now? Where does the SNP plan to take us? Is independence actually in their cards at all? Because if it is, it doesn’t look like it is their main priority.
I think Scotland needs a different strategy. I think Scotland needs a party that stands exclusively on an platform of independence and pursues this to the very end: no dilution of goal, no pussyfooting around, independence, that is it. A party that, like that legend that is the Rev, is prepared to jump on the jugular of the right wing press, the BBC and the unionist leaders in Scotland every time they dare to misinform the people, give bias information or ignore something they claim before, such as Ruth Davidson claiming 2 years ago that the UK gov should not stop an indiref. The SNP has failed to do this efficiently and in my opinion, it has made them an easy target for the establishment: they are far too easy to silence because they do not fight back.
Currently the establishment identifies the SNP with the independence movement, and this, in my opinion, is the reason why the establishment is attempting to erase it. They think that if the SNP is erased, or ‘brought to size’, they can curb the independence movement.
Well, in my opinion this is the time to prove them wrong. I think the way to achieve this is by completely disengaging the independence movement from the SNP and let it follow its own course. Then the establishment would have to fight in two fronts: politically against the SNP and any other parties that support independence, and the actual independence movement itself, which will be much more difficult to fight. Divide and conquer, isn’t this the tactic the tories have been using all along? well then, the unionist parties united to win this election in Scotland and they achieved a lot. Isn’t it time we divide them again?
*Apologies for the length of this. I may have bored you to tears, but I feel better after writing it.
Colin alexander, Very interesting, I think your idea is ok as long as we know that it is the longer road to complete independence. I quite like the idea, I would also say, complete removal of trident. There is also the benefit of throwing it out there as well. It can simply be a motivator for all out independence, gets everybody thinking along the lines of independence.
To all lurkers: Note the direct link to the BUM rag ‘The Independent’ in the post at 9:15am this morning. By clicking on that link you are helping the Unionists to finance their campaigns against us. There are people on here who repeatedly post direct links helping the Unionist cause, just be aware of that.
__________
Here’s a suggestion for all those destroying this latest thread with utter shit such as direct links to BUM rags, threats, fake commercial con petitions, accusations of “Trolling” and personal attacks – why not take all your shit over to ‘Off Topic’ and get it out your system. Please stop destroying btl threads for others.
TAKE SERIOUS NOTE
It was not that long ago The Rev was on the verge of locking a thread, for the very first time, for the exact same behaviour. Keep this shit up and suffer the consequences, take heed!
__________
Due to all the crap perforating this thread we’ve missed a lot of good posts from individuals which are just being lost among all the diarrhoea on display. Here’s one of my favourites and i agree 100%. No messin’ about, time to play factual hardball:
Robert Louis wrote to Wull on 10 June, 2017 at 11:28 pm:
“An excellent (albeit long) post. I agree wholeheartedly with your analysis. I too was dismayed when the opposition to brexit suddenly became re-phrased as ‘the single market’, which is a different thing. I don’t want to know the brexit deal. I don’t want to see what Scotland gets. I don’t want the Scottish Government to get a seat at the brexit table. It is actually really simple, I do not want to leave the EU, and as you rightly point out, it is that which 62% of Scots wanted too.
I have no idea why the FM suddenly changed tack. As you say, it makes no sense, and importantly she has no mandate for it.
I feel perhaps Nicola is surrounded by the wrong people advising her. As you say, you need a clear message and opposing Brexit was it. All this procrastination about ‘let’s see what kind of deal the UK gets and so on, is just rubbish, and to the average voter, utterly meaningless. I even saw an interview with the FM during the election where she said she wanted to work with others to secure the best Brexit deal for the UK. That is delusional. Firstly, nobody in London gives a toss what she thinks (sorry, but it’s true), and secondly, it is not what the people of Scotland voted for. They voted by a very large margin to stay in the EU.
I don’t want a freaking ‘brexit deal’, I want to stay in the EU. On that I am not going to change my mind. Brexit is just political madness magnified a thousand fold. Even if mad Theresa gets every concession she seeks, I am still not interested, I want to stay in the EU, not the ‘single market’, not the EFTA.
It is that freaking clear.
@Robert Louis
I agree, I too want to retain full membership and I’m pretty sure Nicola does too. She is being pulled in all directions right now, attempting to please everyone is not going to work. I trust she knows what she is doing.
Is it not the case that Indyref2 was conditional on Scotland losing it’s single market membership. What will happen now with the chaos in Westminster is anyone’s guess.
What has been lost along the way and what frustrates me most is the fact that the vow and all the promises made seem to have been forgotten. This certainly helps the unionists but we should be keeping it simmering. I’ve spoken with people who are of the opinion Scotland got all the powers available and when I’ve pointed out to them that is not true, they don’t believe me.
Such is the power of the media.
Now they are twisting facts around the election, trying to make the public think the snp did not win. How much longer do we sit back and allow the bbc to fool Scotland.
https://twitter.com/GAPonsonby/status/873619241337065472
The loss of Angus was severe as he was a strong force at Westminster. It was sad about Alex, but he really wasn’t particularly prominent in the last 2 years. (I assume he was doing a lot of mentoring behind the scenes, however). The old accusation of the SNP being a ‘one man band’ has been largely refuted by Nicola and by Angus, and I have no doubt that new leading voices will emerge from the ashes of this election.
Hallo Smallaxe = ) Peace and Love to you and yours and everyone (even our domesticated trolls cos you need that love most!) 🙂
Well said Fred!
Dorothy Devine, you are most welcome = )
Had enough of reading a load of nonsense from folk who like to think it is clever to indulge in a blame-fest when in fact our largest Independence-seeking political party did extraordinarily well.
The SNP won a huge number of seats against another onslaught of the best the entire British establisment and their flying monkeys ( no disrespect to monkeys!) could scrape together to throw at us.
The unionist parties clubbed together because individualy and splitting their unionist vote they didn’t stand a chance against the will of the people of Scotland.
Teresa May is currently doing her utmost to explore the base of the bottomless pit. And is dragging Ruth and poor wee Kez over the edge with her cohorts.
We seem to have a new bunch of apprentice wanna-be trolls (did we burn out the last batch? Shame, was kinda of fond of their daft efforts)
It is no small feat to stand up to the twisted, ferocious and facitious ‘questioning’ our First Minister and MPs meet on a daily basis.
Most times our SNP representatives are ace. Some training to ALWAYS be ace could of course be useful.
Look at how Ruth Davidison lost it with mild exploring of her feelings around her leader getting cosy with the DUP – for personal reasons, not political, presumably one of Ruth’s worse nightmare.
I have great faith in the steps the SNP are taking.
It’s like a ratchet effect. Each inch of ground gained will not be given back.
For example, demanding a seat in the Brexit negotiations is absolutely reasonable and a must to protect Scotland’s postition and assets for the short term and long term. THAT is not an admission of back-sliding on staying in or re-entering the EU. THAT will protect our postition in the EU.
THAT is what we pay our First Minister and her team to do – to protect Scotland’s interests EVERY STEP OF THE WAY.
And EVERY step leads to Independence.
Nicola Sturgeon was asked quite specifically by Andrew Neil in the pre election interview whether she wanted full membership of the EU. She said yes. He checked again. She confirmed yes.
There is no doubt that Nicola Sturgeon’s position is that full membership of the EU is the SNP policy.
bbc lies
the dup do not support a hard border between NI and ROI…..
except they do.
uk bubble politics
by corbyn, … he wants to have the same access to the single market as we do now…..without being in the single market??
by fallon……., we can negotiate a new agreement regarding freedom of movement with the EU
@Maria F 10:11 am
I agree with you. The SNP want to be good administrators of devolved Scottish powers as part of the Union. The party for all Scotland. All things to all Scotland.
They are also supposed to be an independence movement. Radical.
Two competing priorities.
The SNP have prioritised governance of devolved powers over independence – and they don’t do that governance as well as we’d like.
But they are still the biggest party. Still, the kings of devolved Scotland we hear the SNP say.
So what? Support is falling with each election.
They were supposed to get us independence, not be the big shots of a mickey mouse parliament. They were supposed to get us out of WM, not be desperate to plonk their backsides on the green leather benches of WM.
If you wanted a demonstration of what losing looks like, George Osborne knifing Teresa on Andrew Marr’s thing just now is a sight to see.
Tory collapse is amazing to watch, we are going to have a new PM Bojo very soon, who says that a pound in Croydon is far better value for money than one spent in Strathclyde, what what!
Tory tactical voting got SLab a few seats, but so what. They’ve given everyone who wants the best for Scotland a good shake.
Stick to you guns people.
@Sue Varley
Thank you Sue, indeed that article is a good one. Hoping you have a nice day, enjoy the sunshine if you find it!
David 8.34am
‘For the SNP its not about elections and mandates, it really is a battle for hearts and minds of the kind that most politicians havent experienced in the world.’
Totally agree David, exactly the threat that is at hand and why Nicola and all Indy parties will keep fighting. Nicola has done a tremendous job and why should she give all her cards away?
I caught up on a few short broadcasts from just before the election while on holiday with Nicola talking about the heart and caring. I felt proud again that she is our FM and up against an almost impossible task, especially when also dealing with all the incoming abuse, threats and dirty unionist tricks.
BTW, The abuse towards everyone last night from BBCTL is out of order. There is absolutely no need for this kind of nedsville agresstion, abuse or threats to come out of anyone’s mouth on this blog! No familiarity or personal abusive comments are necessary esp’ when someone is pointing out how the threads/bold works or rules.
I would send him out in the desert for 7 days with no food or water to show him how crazy his mind actually is! Alternatively, since this is Scotland, I’d lsend him a dark cupboard:-)
Thanks for the links @nana 🙂
They were supposed to get us independence, not be the big shots of a mickey mouse parliament. They were supposed to get us out of WM, not be desperate to plonk their backsides on the green leather benches of WM.”
colin alexander
There are some very odd WoS commentators now. They were supposed to get us indy’s pretty good.
Febrile, is the polite way of saying dafty:D
Robert Louis
i want to stay in the eu EU, not the ‘single market’, not the EFTA.
It is that freaking clear….
me too, but if treeza walks out in sept, we are out, whether you or I want this or not! you can stamp your feet all you like but that wont change the fact that we will be out
the campaign going forward will be to rejoin the EU
EFTA/EEA is only the first stepping stone to protect our economy,
a vital move and one which needs to be tied into indyref2.
a yes vote means automatic application to efta/eea membership
this will be our position during indy negotiations with westminster.
EU membership is a fish to fry once we are indy
A few predictive text moments in my post..sorry bout that. Should say threads/blog .
Thanks for links Nana 🙂
@ Capella
Take a rest on the sabbath, brother.
Robert J Sutherland @ 23.46
I agree with all that you say. One of the best put downs was by Alex Salmond when he said to Jeremy Paxman: ‘ Would you let me answer the question before you begin patronising me’.
It is difficult to think on your feet when you are being interviewed. In order to do so you have to be in full command of your brief. Too often the SNP MP or MSP, minister or not, just does not seem to be particularly knowledgeable about what is going on or what the SG have done or are doing.
It is not unlike teaching. If you are in full command of your subject then it is easier to keep discipline because the answer to subject specific questions comes automatically. By contrast a teacher who is only a few pages ahead of their class in a specific subject does not have the same control because they are not confident in their grasp of the subject. I have seen this when a chemistry teacher is teaching a first year class part of the physics module.
Schoolchildren can sense the hesitation and take advantage of it. Same with interviewers.
I agree that sometimes Ms Sturgeon can be too open and ends up accepting the premise of the interviewers question eg your record in education is poor. This can be seen in her recent Interview with Jon Snow.
Sometimes the shortest answer is the best one as I found out when I was given some media training. In one of the sessions the interviewer asked a longish question. My answer: No. Totally flummoxed the poor man – ex BBC if I remember correctly.
Colin Alexander @ 9-53
That idea does actually makes a lot of sense.
At the very least we would know where Corbyn’s UK Labour stands. I fear he’s too died-in-wool Old Lab. to even consider the offer, in effect an Indy Scotland with just a fig-leaf of Union to soften the blow. Much like how Ireland moved in stages to independence. However, it would do no harm to give the man a chance. Let him show whether he’s a true democrat, or simply a skillful pink-hued Imperialist.
The claim that Davidson and the Tories won the election in Scotland really needs taken to task. If they performed to this level in the UK they would have taken 144 seats and their leader would be toast.
Whereas the projected over 100 majority that was assumed May would achieve would have been described as a landslide is the performance of the SNP and would equate to a 116 majority at UK level. Yes they didn’t take 95% of the seats or over 50% of the vote, but is near impossible in a 4 party system.
Would they win a referendum on the terms of Brexit, how will we ever know if we don’t have it. If we don’t vote for indy with a bad EU exit there is little chance of it ever happening.
Having read ALL the comments [tho’ skipped some nasties] my feeling is:
– the MSM and establishment will be pleased to see the effect of their lies on some Wingers;
– the SNP as Scottish Government have heavy responsibilities and have made a fantastic job of it [I’m not a member yet can appreciate their integrity and brains];
– Nicola is outstanding – everyone would know that if the BBC hadn’t “lost” their link to the Irish Parliament appearance AND to the Stanford University one;
– We HAVE to be “at the Brexit table” in order to argue for Scotland to stay IN the EU. Remember that it is possible for parts of states to have different treatment in the EU. How do you think we’ll manage that if we’re not there?
If our heads go down and start in-fighting, we’ll get nowhere good, very very fast.
@heedtracker 10:49 am
Can we actually discuss the points raised instead of personally abusive remarks? We are all entitled to our views, as long as we express them reasonably.
Support for indi is still high, but not high enough to win an indi-ref. The SNP have done nothing to strengthen Scotland’s hand since then. Nothing to strengthen the case for independence either.
Their only answer: have another indi-ref. NS was asked: and if WM Govt still says No to another referendum?
Wait and see, she said. Do you think Tories + the Loyalist Orange DUP Govt will be more likely to agree to another indi-ref?
No chance.
With three elections in a row support for the SNP has gone down. My independence credentials are there if you want to google my posts to 2014.
As a pro-independence supporter, even I could see little reason to vote SNP, except for the personal qualities of my local SNP candidate. I saw no reason to maintain my SNP membership either.
Stu knows I’m no Unionist troll.
I’m highly critical to try and ring alarm bells. The SNP and independence movement are stagnating. Nothing positive is happening.
It’s not a lost cause. Independence support is still very strong. But we need forward momentum. The current SNP path is taking us backwards.
The SNP are focused on being administrators of devolved powers. Focused on party politics, not independence or even Scottish sovereignty within the Union as forward step to independence.
If saying that stings for SNP supporters, then good. The truth hurts. Hopefully, once the shock and hurt at losing seats to the Tories abates, you will consider my remarks and look for positive changes, instead of personally abusing critics of the SNP.
colin alexander says:
11 June, 2017 at 11:32 am
@heedtracker 10:49 am
Can we actually discuss the points raised instead of personally abusive remarks? We are all entitled to our views, as long as we express them reasonably.
Sure and why not discuss then or, can you give the awful SNP your advice on how to do it then, instead of droning on about how awful they are?
Anyone can do that. Its not like there’s not massed ranks of well paid critics is there Colin.
Read this WoS report, digest, then give us some constructive stuff.
The big danger, as it is for the vast majority of personality types drawn to career politics, is hubris.
The belief that when things go well – it was down to them.
The belief that when things go badly – it was down to them.
That is rarely the case.
There are nearly always, other factors which predominate.
We have been lucky with perfect storms of various kinds.
2015 an enthused contingent or recent Yes voters.
2016 An error by the BBC in still promoting SLAB resulting in a more or less balanced split Lab/Tory.
2017 An error by the BBC in switching to the Tories only by dint of a poorly performing May and a much-better-than expected performance by Corbyn again splitting the opposition vote.
I hope the luck holds out for future elections but now the BBC have learned the power of tactical voting direction…
Bernard Jenkin on LBC 15 minutes ago. Lib Dems and SNP got hammered. Lib Dems only got 7% of the vote. SNP only got 4.2%. Silence from the presenter Andrew Pierce of the Daily Mail.
colin alexander says: 9:53 am
I’ll get pelters for this one, but who cares?
I’ll take some pelters for you.. We need to reach out.
Corbyn’s momentum and the SNP’s previous success with progressive social policies and templates will mean that Labour and the SNP will compliment each other.
Corbyn can now veer further left without losing face. Knowing his ideas (in opposition) can appeal to the public without actually being balanced..
Banning Trident!
United Ireland!
Socialist policies for local gov and NHS!
Independent Scottish Parliament?
A neighbouring left-wing nation paving the way for England’s re-birth is only good for the revolutionary politics required..
..TO OVERTURN THE CENTURIES OF ABUSE OF SOCIETY AND PARLIAMENTS ON THESE 4-MATION ISLANDS.
Corbyn would love to expose the lies at the heart of the Establishment but would need to expose Scotland’s situation through the same lens, or be guilty of the very same thing.
C’mon JC..
Lets start with an anti-nuclear campaign strategy.
Let’s divert ‘advanced weaponary’ research cash into renewables to protect THE BRITISH ISLES.
Let’s cut NATO spending. Let’s cut the Neo-Cons out of the loop.
Let’s do stuff in that future generations will be proud of..before it’s too late..the SNP have made a start.
Previous..Should read..4-‘NATION’ ISLANDS.
Maybe a re-4–mation is the moniker of future alliances against the Tories (who..with a half decent leader..Will be back..and in greater numbers)
Can I just say to all those criticising folk for having a post election analysis, we are not playing into any unionist hands, we are not fighting, we are not giving up on Nicola.
It is so very important to air all concerns and then divise a strategy to deal with it.
We are up against the most powerful organised establishment in the world.
They have 100s of years of perfecting control techniques.
The biggest lie the English establishment have sold to the world is that they are reasonable decent polite folk, they are the opposite
A lot of what is being discussed is very useful and no one is falling out, we’re not children
Debate is what it’s all about, excellent links Nana, but a wee word to the actresses of both sexes who are threatening to flounce off & leave the party.
“Watch yer heid oan the lobby light! We’ll manage!”
heedtracker says:
11 June, 2017 at 11:48 am
“Sure and why not discuss then or, can you give the awful SNP your advice on how to do it then, instead of droning on about how awful they are?”
What is going on now heedtracker? It doesn’t longer matter how much you want independence for Scotland that if you don’t agree with the way the SNP is taking things forward we simply have to shut up and take our medicine? Isn’t that exactly what the right wing press and the entire English establishment and their apparatchiks in Scotland are expecting us to do anywhere else? So now we can not longer express our opinion in Wings either?
I am sorry if it hurts, but I totally agree with Colin on this. The independence movement has not moved forward from 2014 because of the SNP, it has moved forward because of the tremendous effort of the grassroots, and websites like this.
Please, just answer what exactly have we achieved for the independence movement after 2 years of having 56 SNP MPs in Westminster?
We had 56 Mps in Westminster when the Supreme Court announced that basically our devolution is just pretend and can be taken away from us at any point and that Scotland had no right to sit in the Brexit negotiations, a brexit Scotland did not vote for, and what difference did it make? That surely was the time to start making noises about UDI, don’t you think?
We had 56 MPs in Westminster and the SNP as the majority party at Holyrood, which with the support of the Greens, has managed to pass the request for another independence referendum, a request that not only has been denied by central government, but also has been mocked and rejected by members of the Parliament of Scotland itself, such as Kezia, Ruth and Rennie. The unionist parties and central government have undermined the Scottish parliament and the SNP has done nothing but politely wait for permission. A permission that if was not granted with 56 MPs, do you seriously think it is going to be granted with 35? So, is this really the best the SNP can do?
Then along comes this general election when instead of asserting the voice of Scotland in the fundamental issue that is the validity of the Scottish Parliament, they chose to put that issue aside while the 3 unionist parties got in cahoots and fought on a platform for independence? So, where exactly are we? Is the SNP fighting for independence or not? And if they are, what does a decrease from 56 to 35 MPs now mean?
You demand advice about how to go. Well, heedtracker, isn’t the first step in preparing an alternative plan to acknowledge what went wrong with the original one? Many of us here have no experience in politics, but it is difficult to expect us to support a party that appears to have lost their main goal, a goal, that if I have to be honest headtracker is the main reason why I vote for them.
I particularly would like to have somebody senior from the sNP spelling out publicly why is it that 56 MPs out of 59 couldn’t get away with UDI or even using it as a threat. I want to know if that is simply policy of the SNP because they don’t like it or there are legalities and implications behind and if that is the case which ones are those. I want to know why if Margaret Thatcher thought that Scotland could get independence with a majority of SNP MPs, why that avenue has not been explored and exploited further. We have the Catalonians threatening with UDI and they are bound by a constitution. Where is the written constitution that binds us?
I also want to know what are the legalities behind having to ‘ask permission’ from English MPs for Scotland to get a referendum. Isn’t that defeating the purpose? Doesn’t that go against the principle of self-determination? How is it logical to have to ‘ask permission’ from MPs that have been elected by the constituents of another country when Scotland is not a region of that country or a colony?
I would like to have a Senior SNP representative spelling clearly out if Scotland a country or a colony, legally speaking.
I would like to have a senior figure from the SNP coming out and explaining all that, plainly and in the open because I think until each of us know exactly where we are standing and what the real situation of Scotland within the UK is, I do not see much point hoping for avenues that may not be an option.
If the only way for Scotland to get an independence referendum is by getting permission from English MPs, then we can forget about it until Scotland’s assets and resources have lost any value for England. Because I am sure that if there is something we agree on is the fact that the reason for the English Establishment to want to keep hold of Scotland is not the ‘love for its people’ but rather the greed for its assets.
@ Maria, how can we possibly have UDI when Scotland still has a majority of folk in favour of the union! Scotland is a democracy if nothing else. We have to change the latter, the former would invite bedlam on the streets.
@Al Dossary
Arlene Foster would be a Privy member as she’s FM of NI, as would Carwyn Jones for Wales. Jim Murphy is on the Privy (pun intended), as are former FM’s and notable politicians and others. It seems quite erratic all the same.
and when the election was over, there were no safe SNP seats left.
@gus1940
Headline picture in the SH online of Davidson and all her MPs, then changed to the headline picture being of a DUP guy with a gun, and one next to it of May’s head in the line of fire! With the headline: “Theresa May: A Prime Minister propped up by a party tainted with terror”.
The SH is curious. But it could be argued that they’re trying to split the Scottish Conservatives from the Westminster one, something I think we should all welcome.
Then of course the McAskill article wanting Murrell to go, which has by a long way the most unionist upvotes for anti-SNP votes, so the most reading from them, plus an article with the SNP “Powerbrokers” Sillars, Biagi (no longer ven an MSP), and Neil.
Daft as a brush!
Just seen a tweet by John mcdonnell of labour saying he doesn’t think single market possible.
Indyref v much on.
Maria F says:
11 June, 2017 at 1:22 pm
heedtracker says:
11 June, 2017 at 11:48 am
“Sure and why not discuss then or, can you give the awful SNP your advice on how to do it then, instead of droning on about how awful they are?”
What is going on now heedtracker?
But in all that, you have nothing to offer at all. UDI is insane, completely and utterly insane.
All you’re doing is whinging at the SNP.
There are issues that could change drastically.
For one, ID who exactly are Scottish independence most powerful opponents?
Is it guys marching along a few streets in strange toytown outfits playing flutes?
NO.
Its the BBC and BBC Scotland for starters. So now is the time for the SNP in government to start attacking them, strapping on a pair and really hitting back at the beeb bootboys like Glenn Campbell’s and toodleoo the noo.
But that take guts and seeing as I haven’t the guts to even try to stand as an SNP anything at all…
@scottieDog
John Mcdonnell MP clear -@UKLabour remain committed to leaving the EU single market
video here
https://twitter.com/pestononsunday/status/873845327387795456
Fintan O’toole asks
What happens when phony populism collides with the real thing?
http://www.nybooks.com/daily/2017/06/10/britain-the-end-of-a-fantasy/
Fred says:
11 June, 2017 at 1:33 pm
“@ Maria, how can we possibly have UDI when Scotland still has a majority of folk in favour of the union!”
And how do you know that this is the case Fred? Are you basing your comment on polls that are commissioned by third parties with conflict of interests on the mater on the result of the GE 2017? Because if the latter is the case you don’t know. You don’t know because the SNP did not fight on a platform for independence and quite frankly, neither did Labour. The leaflet I got through my letter box from both labour and the SNP was mainly a direct attack to the Tories, but did not mention independence. It was the tories the ones who did fight on a platform of independence and the truth is that they did not get a 50% of the vote.
Had the SNP been clear that a vote for them would be a vote in support for independence now we would know where we stand.
I think perhaps a problem for the YES movement is that we don’t have a way of measuring how the movement is progressing. The SNP did not fight on a independence platform on 2015 nor 2017, therefore I am not sure we should use their support or decrease of as the measurement. I think the increase in the number of people attending to the march for independence may be a reflection of the increase in support.