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Wings Over Scotland

The Great Whiteout

Posted on January 17, 2018 by

Late last night in the House Of Commons saw one of the most significant votes in the history of UK constitutional politics. A group of Scottish Tory MPs voted to oppose an amendment which would have protected the central building block of Scottish (and Welsh) devolution – the principle that any powers not explicitly reserved are devolved – from the UK government’s attempted huge power grab under the cover of Brexit.

Those very same Scottish Tory MPs had previously pledged to stand up for Scotland’s interests regardless of loyalty to their party, and had repeatedly expressed their grave disappointment at the deeply unsatisfactory condition of the Withdrawal Bill.

Last night they could have fixed it by supporting the amendment (backed by every other Scottish MP right across party lines), which would have tipped the arithmetic and ensured its success. Instead they betrayed every voter in Scotland – including their own – by waving the bill through unamended and passing the buck to the unelected House Of Lords, which has no representatives from Scotland’s most popular party.

This morning, BBC Scotland led on the fact that it snowed a bit in Scotland in January.

Astonishingly, even if you drill right down to the “Scotland Politics” section of the BBC website, there’s not a single mention of the vote, just hours after it happened. There’s room for the latest news on scallops and a couple of half-hearted “NHS BAD” stories, but nothing on Scotland’s democratically-elected parliament and all of Scotland’s MPs being binned for some bishops, George Foulkes and Michelle Mone.

(And it wasn’t as if lots of new breaking stories had pushed it off – most of the articles in the section are still from earlier yesterday, and some from THREE days ago.)

Good Morning Scotland had a brief debate between the SNP’s Stephen Gethins and John Lamont of the Scottish Tories – the latter of whom turned it into a meaningless farce by incessantly talking over both Gethins and presenter Gary Robertson when either of them tried to challenge him on any point – but both the flagship news show and the Kaye Adams phone-in afterwards concentrated mainly on the fact that there’d been a moderate amount of snow and it had caused a bit of traffic disruption.

(We assume that the Queensferry Crossing stayed open, or we’d have had nothing but wall-to-wall screaming from Alex Cole-Hamilton and Jamie Greene for three hours.)

For the state broadcaster to be so completely and unashamedly blanking such a huge story goes some way beyond basic incompetence or a lack of resources. It’s all but impossible to reasonably explain it as anything other than a deliberate act of protection for the Scottish Conservatives, covering up their meek compliance as the foundation of Scotland’s democratic governance is attacked and its future left to the mercies of a bunch of unelected English lords.

Readers can, as ever, draw their own conclusions.

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    1. 20 01 18 22:53

      A BBC Scotland complaint – Coverage of EU Withdrawal Bill – Towards Indyref2…

    359 to “The Great Whiteout”

    1. jimnarlene says:

      BBC, Brits Backing Conservatives.

    2. Macart says:

      I think that pretty much covers both the act (there’s a name for it) of Scotland’s Conservative representatives and the state of our media. I didn’t think it possible to think less of either than I already do.

      I was wrong.

    3. Robert Graham says:

      Oh does this mean Fluffy has told Lies ?

      Surely not

      Headlines Downing st tea boy tells lies inquires under way

      Snigering & laughter heard from cabinet office strenuously denied

    4. Proud Cybernat says:

      Keep it up, BBC. Keep it up. The truth is getting out anyway and just highlights to folk your credentials as the State Propagandist that you are. And when people see it, they can’t ‘unsee’ it. And another indy supporter gets his/her wings.

      Loving it.

    5. clan rossy says:

      every last one of them
      no morals or conscience no loyalty what so ever
      to their constiuents or especially the people of scotland.

      Personally i think its time the snp upped there game as i
      for one am getting seriously pissed off .
      it is time to take off the kid gloves and set about them
      they are just taking the c–t out off us .

      it is time to fight back and that time should be now.

    6. Douglas Gourlay says:

      Was this the same vote that blocked the inclusion in the bill of the European Charter of Fundamental Rights?

      Another massive story that fell by the wayside on the bbc. Only seen it so far reported by The Independent.

    7. Andrew Douglas says:

      Worth noting that the BBC Wales politics site published an article on it. They thought it was worth reporting.

    8. galamcennalath says:

      Tory MPs doing what you would expect them to, and the BBC doing it’s job of protecting the British state. Each carrying out their intended role.

      The people I have no respect whatsoever for are those who showed incredibly poor judgement and elected the con artists.

      The BBC we can call out at every opportunity, as Stu has done most eloquently here.

    9. Muscleguy says:

      Has there been significant snowfall? I look out the window and if I didn’t know it was from a light dusting overnight the bits and pieces of white could be ice. A lot of what fell has simply melted.

      We had a moderately heavy flurry in the middle of yesterday, it looked dramatic, big heavy flakes being driven by a gusting wind. But when it finished there wasn’t much and then the sun came out and it melted. I went for a run about 18:00 last night, the underfoot conditions were fine. I wasn’t the only one out either. As I was trying to hold it together coming home I was passed by an entire pack of runners across the age ranges. As expected I was greeted as a fellow runner and returned that greeting.

      Oh yes, it wasn’t even that cold. I wore no gloves and no headwear. Leggings and a jacket which I partly unzipped as I detected I was in danger of sweating.

      To Weegies and other folk from the West, the sun is a giant ball of nuclear fusion which hangs in the sky and is clearly visible when there are not clouds. I understand that the concept of no clouds is hard as well.

      Dundee is the sunniest City in Scotland.

    10. Derick fae Yell says:

      This sort of stuff could make a body start to consider being mildly irritated


    11. Robert Graham says:

      A very telling and shameful title for this depressing story .

      Exactly who are these people representing ?

      One way or another this tory lot are intent in strangling the scottish parliament , a parliament they never wanted and most still dont recognise .

      Personally i favour the Nuclear option call an immediate election let’s get this over with , f/k this death by a thousand cuts Piss .

    12. Brian Powell says:

      The only conclusion is that both BBC Scotland and the Tories in Scotland are here only to poison democracy in Scotland.

      While Labour MPs voted to keep control of the devolved powers it was an empty and very, very belated gesture. The main action of Labour was to deny extra powers for Scotland that would have benefited their constituents and all in Scotland.

      Once again the out manoeuvring of Labour by the Tories, starting preInd Ref shows like neon lights. When you give away your vote when you are not in power to use the result, that’s third rate thinking.

      It’s made worse by the extremely poor quality ‘MPs’ the Tories have in place.

    13. The wrong folk are being blamed. The Tories do what Tories do.
      Tory voters, or tartan uncle Toms, are responsible. Happy to be associated with the master.

    14. starlaw says:

      Yesterday we were asked not to believe any news stories we heard or saw on the internet as they were not compiled by professional Journalists.
      Today I am hearing and reading on the internet about a vote which took place in the HOC. Why am I hearing nothing about this vote from the so called Journalists of the BBC and Southern TV.

      If there was such a vote then the internet is the most reliable form of Journalism open to the general public.

    15. Robert Graham says:

      Maybe clear where you are muscleguy outside my front door i have 8″ of snow our street leading to the main road is like yer proverbial skating rink ,

      Any progress tracking down a gritter anyone , you know big-yellow – flashing lights , hard to hide ,seen one in 2016 looks like they are now extinct .

      Nothing to do with North Lanarkshire Tory – Labour council i expect .

    16. Richard McHarg says:

      Queensferry Crossing remained open.

    17. Dr Jim says:

      Help us Michelle Mone you’re our only hope

      turn up and make a speech

    18. Bob Mack says:

      They are not Scottish Conservatives, They are only Conservatives, too willing to toe the Party line even at the cost to Scottish democracy and freedom. Their allegiance is to their ambition within a Party structure, even if that means Jimmy and Jean fae Glasgow are thrown to the wolves in Westminster.

      Sorry, but they are not Scots in any true sense of the word.

      They are the grazing pasture of bigots and racists in this country. They encourage hatred and division as a political tool, because the people they use are too stupid or entrenched to see it.

      When oh when will we get rid of these parasites who care only about themselves and social division for the sake of power.

      Hand on heart ,I want a Scotland where everyone is equal. They want a Scotland who will serve, and sing the glory of Brittania in English, with NO Surrender stuck in a chorus somewhere.

      I am very very annoyed.

    19. One_Scot says:

      I am actually raging.

    20. Robert J. Sutherland says:

      Proud Cybernat @ 11:12:

      And another indy supporter gets his/her wings.

      Oh, I do like that. A lovely way to put it. (Very reminiscent of a certain film and all.)

    21. David MacGille-Mhuire says:

      Och, look, there’s a squirrel looking to be stoat fur upon some hauf wit’s Unionist shooders giein laldy for the corpse of General Wade and his favoured verse in German Lizzie’s battle hymn of the AngloBritNat coup d’etat in Scotia.

      Silly Billys yin an’ a’ for even tie-dyeing your Jock essence in BritNat red white and blue won’t make you any more than Hoose Uncle Tams in England’s many unsplendered halls.

      Or, candidate trusties in imperial England’s revanchist lebensraum project.

      Tick tock on the democratic tumbril goes the clock.

    22. Bugger (the Panda) says:

      I have a sickening feeling this is going to go Full Metal Jacket.

      The Tories are really unwired and I would not be surprised that they would neuter Holyrood and then abolish it.

      They have been watching Catalonia and are all fired up.

    23. Movy says:

      I am absolutely livid about this. My great named and shamed MP (his mug shot appeared in the Telegraph – and so far, apart from one abstention on the EU Withdrawal Bill, he has done absolutely nothing) is one of the 13 (I didn’t vote for him) and he assured me that things would be sorted out at the amendment stage. I have an email to that effect. And look what they’ve done. These Tories are truly despicable and the BBC and so called investigative MSM more than complicit.

    24. Bugger (the Panda) says:

      Bastille Day is coming

    25. Marie Clark says:

      Well they’re feckin Tories aren’t they. This is what they do, so no one should be surprised.

      I for one, am getting thoroughly pissed off with the unionist parties ganging up to try and oust the SNP government. Labour are as thick as two short planks and can’t see how they are being used by the blue tories. Mind you, the red tories have to be the most useless bunch o chancers there is.

      It’s the numpties that vote for these clowns that I really get angry at. As has been said, the hoose Scots, afraid o upsettin the maisters. How spineless. Before I get told off for saying that about them, cause we’ll never get them to vote for yes, well tough. It’s how I feel, and I don’t think you’ll ever change them anyway.

    26. One_Scot says:

      And I will tell you why I am raging, their seemingly no fear of any consequence of their actions tells me one of two things, they are either very confident that Scotland has no backbone, or they and Ruth Davidson know something that we don’t.

    27. Andy-B says:

      If there was ever any doubt that the thirteen Tory MP’s for Scotland are working against Scottish interests, then that has now been put to bed, they are.

      It is shameful but not unexpected that Scottish Tory MP’s put Westminster’s interests ahead of the people of Scotland’s interests.

      Sadly they are in Scotland die-hard unionists, who agree with the thirteen Tories vote. It is their logic that a crippled Scotland in the union, is far better, than a independent one.

      As for the media, the National newspaper aside, the rest are a enemy of Scotland.

    28. So there’s no change then.
      The Tories as usual put Westminster interests first before that of their country of Scotland and their constituents.

      And the British state propaganda broadcaster doesn’t consider it appropriate to report on and inform their viewers in Scotland what Scots Tory MPs have done.

    29. Auld Rock says:

      I think that Stu like me and most of you knew that shoving this to the Lords was their twisted plan all along because they know that we in the SNP will not take any seats in that disreputable place.

      OK, so they want to play dirty, they want to dig-up Henry VIII so let’s dig-up the old convention that if SNP have majority in Commons then we can dissolve the Union NOW while at the same time have diplomatic representatives in New York and Brussels deliver a letter of the Declaration of Independence and application to be recognised as The Nation of Scotland.

      Let them put that in their pipes and smoke it!!!

    30. Dr Jim says:

      Remember folks post Brexit EU citizens rights to vote will be removed but Commonwealth citizens rights to vote will remain

      See what they’re doing there?

    31. Fuzzynavel says:

      Movy, provide the Email to WOS and let them do the naming and shaming 🙂

    32. PhilM says:

      Sad to say but they’re all guilty as f***…
      There is no newsworthy justification for not reporting on this. How many times have we seen a Scottish item on the UK-wide BBC immediately repeated on Reporting Scotland introduced with the phrase ‘more on the xxxxx story’ and finding nothing ‘more’ at all. Just rinse and repeat.
      Here is a Scottish story which would lead a Scottish six or nine but they can’t be bothered because rather than pincer movements or frontal assaults it would show the Scottish Tory elite command unit and TankGirl slinking in through the servants’ entrance.
      Reporting SNPBadland are happy to show shouty bullshitters at FMQT (‘angry exchanges’), rent-a-gob Scottish politicians and journalists on Sturgeon’s NHS failings, Jim Sillar’s despatches from the fading light, Ross Thomson’s despatches from the growing darkness but no public-interest discussion or enlightenment on this era-defining issue when the implications are so massive.
      Question for Ross Green MSP and his ilk: is the BBC,
      a) a public-service broadcaster?
      b) a state broadcaster?
      I have no idea. I need the guidance of wiser heads.

    33. Footsoldier says:

      Wise up, the BBC really does not care what the Scots think as long as the Union is protected.

      Like in commerce and industry, there will have been meetings and dinners at top levels agreeing to minimise Scotland at every opportunity; in return for what?

    34. Movy says:

      Just seen the screen grab from the BBC Welsh website with a report by Carwyn Jones on the power grab and BBC Scotland still blanking it. I’ve gone beyond mad to being just totally gobsmacked by this. It is truly incredible that our national broadcaster thinks this is OK.

    35. stewartb says:

      One_Scot @ 11:49 am

      “… their seemingly no fear of any consequence of their actions ….”

      I take the same view: Tories will be Tories after all, but BBC Scotland, with all the high and mighty principles of the BBC charter, has not for the first time shown disdain for Scotland and its people, and scant regard for its supposed mission to inform and educate.

      This most recent example of bias by omission in its online news coverage, not least given the stark contrast with BBC Wales online, is so blatant that BBC Scotland clearly has no fear of any consequence.

    36. Redrock says:

      Re: Robert Graham

      If you Google “transport Scotland gritter tracker” it will show you where all the gritters are and where they have gritted.

      More amusingly it also gives the gritters name ‘Sir Salter Scott; Ice Queen; etc.’ Pity that this type of information is not more widely trumpeted by the pundits when being interviewed, sigh.

    37. David Bruce says:

      Now, now. Fairs, fair! I caught a snippet on radio Scotland about the vote, I’m sure it was BBC Scotland’s London political correspondent, stating that the Bill would now progress to the Lords which was ‘chock full of judges and constitutional experts’ and they would definitely have something to say about it all.
      I wish someone had been on hand to ask what he meant by ‘chock full’ as I suspect a handful of retired judges and the few experts there are on the UK constitution will have their hands full explaining the consequences to the gravy train riders and trough feeders that inhabit the upper house.

    38. Moonlight says:

      For the avoidance of doubt.
      The 6th verse the tories want us to sing is below.

      Lord grant that Marshal Wade
      May by thy mighty aid
      Victory bring
      May he sedition hush
      And like a torrent rush
      Rebellious Scots to crush
      God save the King

      Nuff said

    39. Ottomanboi says:

      It snows in winter and Unionists are ("Tractor" - Ed)ous…nothing outlandish there.

    40. Heehawbaws says:

      To be fair, snow happens less regularly than this type of thing and is therefore more newsworthy.

    41. Glamaig says:

      Can’t say I’m surprised at all by the ‘Scottish’ Tory MP’s voting against the amendment.

      It’s the complete silence on the BBC website that disturbs me. Total silence on the Scotland page, and although Ive seen screenshots on Twitter of an article on the Wales page, I don’t see it there at all. Do they show you different articles according to your geographical location?

      This along with the lack of discussion of the Scottish Government paper on the effect of Brexit on the economy is taking BBC propaganda to new levels.

    42. stewartb says:

      Apologies if this has already been flagged up.

      Haven’t noted any mention by BBC Scotland online of the FM’s significant policy speech at the David Hume Institute yesterday evening. Another ‘whiteout’?

      As well as reviewing forecasts of post-Brexit impacts, the speech was of particular importance because it devoted much attention to ‘immigration’ – a key and, yes, controversial issue which, whatever your politics, all of us in Scotland will need to think deeply about for the medium to long term future of the country.

      The speech can be read at

    43. Dr Jim says:

      More BBC breaking news

      A woman has found a swimming hedgehog

    44. Movy says:

      I agree with you Glamaig. I am not surprised by the actions of the Scottish Tories (livid, yes; surprised, no), but the actions (or rather inactions) of the BBC are truly disturbing. After all the BBC is meant to provide a fair unbaised reporting service, a service towards which many Scots still pay. I have real concerns now about just where all this is leading.

    45. galamcennalath says:

      Bob Mack says

      They are not Scottish Conservatives, They are only Conservatives

      Exactly. So why do they use the term ‘Scottish’? I think it’s two fold.

      Firstly (in common with LibDems and Labour) they know it widens their appeal by giving the gullible the impression that they are actually ‘of this nation’.

      However secondly, Scottish Scotland ‘this nation’ all have a quite different meaning to Tories. To them Scotland is not their nation or country, it is no more than a region like Yorkshire or East Anglia. They don’t believe they are abusing the term Scottish because to them it means much less.

      They are proud Scots in the same way as a proud Yorkshireman (-woman) sees their nation and country as England. Anglicised Scots might claim to be ‘British’, but let’s face it, they aspire to be English if they were honest.

    46. Valerie says:

      I’m with the Panda on this.

      I have a feeling of dread. We knew this was coming, but it’s real now, and I dont think there is any stopping the Tories.

      The stance from Tories is, we voted against it, out of respect for Holyrood. Holyrood needs to give approval to the EU Withdrawal Bill via the LCM, and then we sort out the powers.

      We all know this is shite. The Withdrawal Bill will not be given consent by Holyrood, and uppity jocks are not supportive of Brexit, and they are holding us to ransom. The UK needs to Brexit, therefore we need to overrule Holyrood, and keep their powers, they can’t be trusted.

    47. Glamaig says:

      fresh off the press 5 mins ago

      Headlined as the SNP complaining, and ranking just below the swimming hedgehog

    48. Valerie says:

      @ Dr Jim

      the poor bugger is trying to escape to Europe. Many of us will follow him, if we don’t get out of this accursed Union.

    49. PhilM says:

      Meanwhile this important story remains unsolved…any chance of an update BBC Scotland? We are after all a nation hungry for information…

      (Disclaimer: those of a nervous disposition should be wary of the distressing images accompanying this national tragedy. BBC Scotland cannot be held responsible for any distress caused).

    50. Luigi says:

      As the Wee Ginger Dug so eloquently put it this morning: They are not respecting the result of the 1997 referendum on devolution. Remember all the crap we had to put up with about not respecting the result of 2014? Irony bypass or what?

      This really needs to be hammered home. Come on, SNP spokespeople, any chance you get, hammer these tories for not respecting the referendum result in 1997.

      PS: They seem to be ignoring the 62% of scottish voters who voted REMAIN in 2016 as well. 🙁

    51. It must be plain for all to see we are never going to win our freedom while we play by their rules when things go against them they just change the rules we know from history what their record is when any country wants independence from them so we should not be surprised they are depending on our honesty and fair play helping them to defeat us either that or they are trying to provoke a violent reaction .. The SNP have given the people of Scotland the best standard of living in the U.K.And the tories hate that and labour are mad because it shows them up for the frauds they are

    52. One_Scot says:

      They clearly know we are on to them and have decided to try and dampen the flames.

    53. yerkitbreeks says:

      This is the second cop – out on this subject by these honorary Englishmen and women

    54. Abulhaq says:

      Generalissimo Ruth Davidson is frustrated that she’s stuck in Scotlandshire’s ‘coonty coonsil’ and nobody is yet prepared to pop their clogs to let her into the imperial English parliament where she can fully deploy her fabulous leadership skills.

    55. Luigi says:

      Social media says:

      “The tories have well and truly shafted us.”

      BBC Scotland says:

      “Oh look – it’s snowing!”

    56. Rab Pollock says:

      Cancel the TV License here’s how. If you never watch the BBC or BBC iPlayer (or don’t want to) and only want to watch all other channels catch-up services, cancel your TV licence and save yourself £147 per year. You may get a refund as its paid in advance. You only need a TV licence if you watch or record TV as it’s being broadcast or use BBC iPlayer – if you only use other catch-up sites, you don’t need one. You can watch almost anything on other stations catch-up services: soaps, documentaries, dramas, cartoons and films. And if you you buy a chrome cast or link a PC to a TV you can watch You Tube. And because services such as The ITV Hub only take a few hours to update, you could watch the news not long after it’s been on STV. How can I cancel? If you’re absolutely sure you no longer need a licence on-line, you can formally let TV licensing know. Although there’s no legal obligation to do this, it says doing so will prevent an increasing number of letters coming your way. Cancel payment first. If you pay by direct debit you can cancel it by filling out TV Licensing’s contact form. Tell it you no longer watch TV and confirm your current address. You’ll also need to cancel your direct debit with your bank. If you pay with a TV Licensing payment card, you’ll need to call 0300 555 0286. Then fill out the declaration on-line. Everyone who no longer requires a TV licence – including those who pay in cash at certain stores or Post Offices, who don’t need to do the above – can fill out a No Licence Needed declaration form. After this, keep your confirmation email from TV Licensing as proof. TV Licensing have a right to visit but not enter your house. Once you’ve cancelled, you might find you get a visit from TV Licensing to check whether you actually do need a TV licence – it says these inspections find one in five households do. If you do need a licence, you’ll need to pay the full licence fee, and you could risk prosecution plus a fine of up to £1,000 (£500 Jersey, £2,000 Guernsey). Is this legal? Yes, you don’t need a licence so long as you are not 1. watching live TV or 2. Watching or recording BBC or BBC iPlayer and are only watching on-demand or catch-up on other services.

    57. yerkitbreeks says:

      … and a bit like last night’s TV illustrating JamesVI and Charles’ disregard for the wishes of their ( ex ) countrymen.

    58. Ken500 says:

      The Scottish Gov will not support Brexit. There will be another IndyRef. The Tories have done just what they were warned. There have created a constitutional crisis along with a financial, economic mess. They will not last much longer. Everyone is sick fed up of their carry on. They are not fit for public office.

    59. ronnie anderson says:

      Weasel words from Kerr & Thompson there again their Tories & noted LIERS .

    60. David McDowell says:

      Blair.Paterson at 12:43pm: “It must be plain for all to see we are never going to win our freedom while we play by their rules…”

      100% correct.

    61. gus1940 says:

      As a 1940 model my generation, the preceding generations and almost certainly more recent generations have been brought up and educated that Napoleon was a Late 18th. Cent/Early 19th. Cent. equivalent of Hitler.

      Has any study ever been made of what the effect on history would have been if Napoleon had won?

      Is it possible that things would have been much better for both Continental Europe and The UK and that the 2 World Wars would never have taken place?

    62. yerkitbreeks says:

      Now a wee BBC piece has appeared

    63. ScotsRenewables says:

      OK, what’s with the polls?

      Mail today is reporting latest YouGov poll shows only 36% support for another referendum.

      While last week’s Curtice poll was also very disappointing.

      We seem to be going backwards as panic and ennui sets in. It’s beginning to look as though only a MAJOR upheaval (Trident sub explodes, UK goes to war with Spain over Gib?) is likely to shake the sheeple out of their dazed apathy.

      Or am I missing something?

    64. Capella says:

      BBC Scotland reads WoS. Their hastily cobbled together item on last night’s Commons vote appeared at 12.30.

      Is that the sound of tumbrils rolling along the cobbles?

    65. wull2 says:

      The squirrel cant get up the tree because of the snow, what, there was a vote last night, back to more important news, the squirrel is now up the tree.

      You know what to do, vote YES next time and don’t believe a word the media says, it is mostly fibs.

    66. yesindyref2 says:

      The names of the 13 Scottish Conservative MPs will go down in history, in infamy.

      Not in Scotland I hasten to add, where they will be folk heroes in years to come, but in the rUK where they will be rightly blamed for having finally lost Scotland.

    67. chocolass says:

      Okay-I’m getting really,really angry now(and pissed off)

    68. Snode1965 says:

      Absolutely nothing from STV News either.

    69. alasdair galloway says:

      There is something on their website now Admittedly on the menu this comes below that its snowing (three reports) and that the Scottish economy grew by 0.2%, or on an annualised basis about 1/3 of the rate of the economy in the UK as a whole. According to Mundell this is the fault of the SG who aren’t using their new borrowing powers correctly (he claims!).
      The report itself includes quotes from Lamont to the effect that it would be foolish to amend the legislation now while there are still negotiations going on between WM and Holyrood. Even Tory MP Stephen Kerr is quoted as saying that the Bill is leaving the HOC in “an unsatisfactory state”, though he goes on to claim that the SNP (NOT the SG) have approached the negotiations with their usual “wrecking ball” (remember THAT cartoon?) mentality, which I suppose means they haven’t done as they are telt.

    70. Andy-B says:


      If I hear or see another media report, of how significant it is to “our” history to finally be getting the Bayeux Tapestry on loan, I think I’ll scream..aarrrgghhh!

    71. artyhetty says:

      These people, these 13 enemies of Scotland, know that they will be well looked after. They have been told that they will be looked after, we just have to see how utterly corrupt the tories in WM are.

      It’s like some dystopian bloody nightmare, where the dodgy, unscrupulous gits are in power, and, they are actually taking more power, from the people of Scotland.

      Is this effectively a coup, it seems that way. To silence this in the media, this must be north Korea, because it sure as hell ain’t what we would consider to be Europe. And what of the rEU? OK with them? Yep. Oil, fishing grounds, water, renewables, land, it’s all up for grabs, isn’t it.

      Can the ScotGov take this to the UN, is anyone outside of this disgusting so called union bothered by what is going on here.

      You’ll have had your referendum then! They must be pretty sure that another one would return a yes vote, with bells on. Democracy is well and truly in deep doo doo in the UKOK and in Europe if devolution is removed, thereby the SNP are removed and Holyrood dismantled.

      Scotland, get out of this dysfunctional, undemocratic yookay before it’s too late, otherwise you will be destroyed.

    72. Bill Hume says:

      The Guardian may have expected them to look after the interests of Scotland….but I didn’t.

    73. Proud Cybernat says:

      BREAKING from Pravda Quay
      with Union Jackie Kim Ono

    74. winifred mccartney says:

      Our 21st Century ‘parcel o’ rogues’ the 13 tory mps from Scotland who prefer to give powers to the unelected house of lords than to the Scottish Parliament.

      The BBC does not even report until nearly 20 hours later and then only on website not on the news and of course Ruth Davidson is back in hiding – when the going gets tough ruth get going as far away as possible.

    75. Clan rossy says:

      Me thinks it’s time to do something it’s all fine and well hiding behind our own wee screens .
      But come on ffs it’s just blatant colonisation and do what yer felt. It’s time to show them who we are .
      And not just sit about an do sfa it’s time for the snp to stand up and be counted and to tell them to gtf. It’s time for action words have done us sfa I for one am really pissed off with all this pussy footing being done it’s time and the time should be now. Ffs Scotland grow a set of balls every c–tsk laughing at us.

    76. Jockanese Wind Talker says:

      We need to call these charlatans what they are:

      They are not Scottish Conservatives.

      The “Scottish Conservative Party” doesn’t exist it is an accounting unit like that of BLiS.

      They are Conservative and Unionist BritNats FROM Scotland.

      And pretty much @Bob Mack says at 11:37 am nails it.

    77. John H. says:

      You have to admit that the “Scottish” tories and “Scottish” BBC are at least consistent. They always let the Scottish people down and they always will.

    78. Alastair says:

      What do the carrupt Spanish Faciast Goverment and the Westminster Government have in common – they both have enforced direct rule over devolved Parliaments.

    79. jfngw says:

      Did I just see some fake pictures on BBC Scotland news. Claiming pictures were from M74 but they passed lay-by parking signs, never known to have parking lay-bys on a motorway.

    80. HandandShrimp says:

      The Tories are false friends to Scotland and I am hoping that any Labour or even SNP voters that crossed the divide now see that.

      I see Kezia has come out very strongly against their actions last night. Hopefully that is representative across the board in Labour.

      We will never convince every Labour voter to vote for independence but I do hope that all the other parties make it very clear that the Tories and Ruth Davidson as their leader failed Scotland last night and that no one should trust them.

    81. Jim Logan says:

      In one of your polls it would be interesting to see if this is how the Labour and LibDem voters who supported them to keep SNP out expected to be represented at Westminster. It would be interesting to hear their views compare to habitual Tory voters.

    82. Andy-B says:

      No mention of the 13 Tories or the EU Withdrawal bill debate on BBC Shortbread news lunchtime programme.

      In their eyes it didn’t happen.

    83. One_Scot says:

      Just asked STVNews if their lead story tonight will be ‘the 13 Scottish MPs who voted to destroy Holyrood’, or if it will be ‘look it’s snowing outside’.

      Well STV, I dare you to prove me wrong!

    84. Glamaig says:

      At times like this I appreciate the National more and more. Imagine if it went under, apart from a scattering of saltires and Yes stickers, its the only visible sign of the independence movement – I have an online sub but also buy a paper copy when I can.

      Consider that 45-50% of people support independence, and a casual visitor to the country would not see that at all, only an array of anti-SNP and pro Union newpapers and media, and UJ’s all over the shops and the TV.

    85. Andy-B says:

      No mention either from STV’s lunchtime news of the 13 Tories or the EU Withdrawal bill.

      Just snow, snow, snow and more snow.

    86. Jack Murphy says:

      It’s alright folks,David Mundell MP,Secretary of State for Scotland is commenting about the snow today.

      A snow blackout on last night’s shameful vote by Scotland’s Tory MPs. 🙁

    87. heedtracker says:

      Stinky old The gRaUn’s got it all blacked out too. If you are going to rob a nation, sorry British region, you’re probably not going to say anything out loud about it all.

      Snow in the UK – in pictures

    88. Proud Cybernat says:


      State of this…

      Beer mat found in pub yesterday. Fecking idiots haven’t a clue.

    89. Robert Graham says:

      Well you will have had your devolution then.

      Looks like devolution and all the time wasted voting for it was just a f/in farce

      What was the point , just a time wasting exercise , we know now it wasn’t a benevolent gift from the Unionist Bloc , but it was forced on them by the EU ,

      The EU we are about to say bye to ,

      What mugs we have been expecting psychopaths and liars to deliver what was promised , All with the help of our fellow countrymen and women , whose shortsightedness have taken us to where we are today , the Proud House Jocks , thanks to all .

    90. heedtracker says:

      The GRaUn is having fun trolling its Scotland region today though,

      “The Inverness to Edinburgh train battles through snow at Culloden, near Inverness”

      Who knew Culloden was near Inverness. I am so hacked off that I’ve bought in to that pack of tory creeps product for so long.

      Too late now though. Bugger.

    91. Andy-B says:

      The BBC eventually got round to mentioning the Tory thirteen.

    92. Davosa says:

      I hope all those aresholes in Aberdeenshire and the Borders who voted for these incompetent wankers are happy with themselves. Traitors and Quisling scum.

    93. yesindyref2 says:

      BBC referendum motto:
      There’s “NO” business like snow business.

    94. Arbroath1320 says:

      What can I say? 🙂

      Oh yeah …. this!

      Vote TORY … get SHAFTED!

      Good old BBC doing what they do best … Nothing to see here folks move along now … oh look SQUIRRELS!

    95. heedtracker says:

      Andy-B says:
      17 January, 2018 at 2:24 pm
      The BBC eventually got round to mentioning the Tory thirteen.

      With a nice creepy wee beeb gimp boost for SLabour, in their Scotland region only natch,

      “When the bill entered its final stage in the Commons on Tuesday, Labour tabled amendments which it said would “fix these problems”.

    96. TheWasp says:

      Did this vote really take place? Nothing on politics Scotland about it either

    97. The Tories and some in the Labour party were never
      in favour of devolution in the first place.

      They saw it as a threat to the hegemony of the UK
      and they were always waiting for an opportunity
      to give them the excuse to undo it.

      And what better excuse could they have than Brexit to repatriate powers back to Westminster and emasculate Holyrood.

    98. Alastair says:

      Admitted correction to my last post.
      What do the corrupt Spanish Faciast Government and Westminster have in common?
      I said they both have taken direct control of devolved Parliaments but i got it that wrong.
      For now.
      The U.K. Westminster government after last nights vote have take direct control of 2 devolved Parliaments. UK 2 – Spain 1. Rule Britania, Britania Waves the Rules.

    99. yesindyref2 says:

      From the BBC article: He (Kerr) warned that the bill was leaving the Commons in an “unsatisfactory state”.

      But he voted against the amendment to safeguard devolution.

      Kerr by name, cur by nature.

      With apologies to normal upstanding Kerrs of course.

    100. Cuilean says:

      Quick check of @BBCScotlandNews ccount shows that since the 13 Tories voted last night to begin dismantling devolved powers, the BBC have only tweeted about it 3 times. During the same period they have tweeted about Aberdeen Stadium 7 times.

      They really are parochial under-achievers, to put it mildly.

    101. TheWasp says:

      Future lord brewer has just mentioned this with Mr porter reporting from Westminster, glossed over but with a wee puff for the 13 f@#£wits, but no mention of how they voted

    102. jfngw says:

      Editors morning briefing at BBC Scotland News released.

    103. Ken500 says:

      The problem in the NE is that over 6,000 voters did not come out to vote. It was raining. They will regret it when they lose their rights. The Tories too high taxes (40% ) have already ruined the Oil & Gas sector.

      May crowing about Scotland having lower growth. When the Tories are doing everything possible to ruin the Scottish economy. The Brexit will ruin Scottish economy. They are a disgrace. Taking £Billions out of Scotland on mismagement and misappropriation. The Hedge funds (May/associates) have made £Billion on Carillon collapse. More public money misappropriated. Another cover up.

    104. One_Scot says:

      If there was still anyone who wanted or needed any proof that Reporting Scotland and STV News are anti-Scottish, you will have it by the end of today.

      If any of these supposedly Scottish news programmes does not mention anything about the fact that the votes from the 13 Scottish Tory MPs allowed a bill to pass to remove powers from Holyrood, then they will be guilty as charged for all to see, no question.

    105. Street Andrew says:

      Scottish Tories whipped into the division lobbies with a feather duster.

      I hope they sneeze their heads off.

    106. Stravaiger says:

      Scots wha hae wi’ Alex bled,
      Scots wham Nic has after led,
      Welcome tae your Tory bed,
      Or tae victory!

      Now’s the day and now’s the hour,
      See the front o’ battle lour,
      See the proud Theresa’s power,
      Chains and slavery!

    107. HandandShrimp says:

      I see the usual green ink half dozen or so SiU regulars were waiting with desperation to get in there and try and somehow turn the 13 Tory tractors into an SNP bad story.

      I think they know that this is a hard one to defend.

    108. Proud Cybernat says:

      Without this amendment then there is simply no conceivable way the Scottish Parliament can give its legislative consent to this Bill.

      Which will trigger a constitutional crisis between WM and Holyrood.

      Who will blink first?

      WM will have to ignore the Scottish Parliament and over-rule it.

      And right there, RIGHT THERE is when Scotland’s First Minister can address the people of Scotland and inform them that Devolution is officially dead and that the ONLY way Scotland can control any of its own affairs is to dissolve the Treaty of Union and take its place, once more, as a sovereign nation of the world.

      Bring it on, Westminster.

    109. Ian Brotherhood says:

      Anyone have any idea where Mundell The Fluffster is today?

      We all know he’ll be providing in-depth interviews to a conga line of Scottish journalists, but the question is…where?


    110. Macart says:

      @Ian B

      “Anyone have any idea where Mundell The Fluffster is today?”

      I’m guessing a dark and undisclosed location where they can broadcast the image of a silhouette and an actors voice.

    111. bookie from hell says:

      only 2 days ago


      Lady Mone


      Powerful business day. This has to be the biggest launch of my career #Cryptocurrency

      Bitcoin & cryptocurrency is here to stay. I predict Bitcoin will reach $100k in the next 18 months

      Sell today is 6k

    112. Tinto Chiel says:

      Stuck in waiting room in Wishaw General, so had to watch BBC news, a gruesome experience.

      Nothing on The Great Massey Ferguson Betrayal, nothing from Tank Girl, instead something about the Bayeux Tapestry, and the last Dambuster pilot giving advice to a female pilot about something else.

      Also available on the BBC news network: ickle-pwitty pictures of a hedgehog and some hamsters.

      Winner of the No Shit Sherlock Award: it’s snowing in East Kilbride, apparently, shock-horror-probe.

      And the Tories complain about Putin, RT and state-controlled news services.

      *grinds teeth*

      Serious question: how did The Daily Record report The Glorious 13, if at all?

    113. HandandShrimp says:

      Mundell and his bonanza of powers are a joke. A lying, treacherous joke admittedly but still a joke.

      On the BBC I noticed that the green ink fraternity are constantly crying foul over losing the rating battles in Scottish threads. Why the hell something so trivial should matter to them I really don’t know but it does…

      …so you know what to do 🙂

    114. Dr Jim says:

      We’re going to have to wait until tomorrow till after FMQs for the BBC to figure out a way of saying the FM and her dastardly plot has been foiled by hard working Tory MPs who suspected all the time that the Natsis were secretly planning another referendum to snatch away democracy from R precious UK and make Scotland the new Kremlin republic of Scotlandiavistch on the Clydesbach but Ruth will complain about the snow first and comrade Leonard will repeat the same personal distressing story as he did last week except change the name of the poor downtrodden victim of SNPness

      Willie Rennie will eat sweeties and Patrick Harvie will condemn something unimportant to anybody in the world bar him

      But let’s see if Kezia has grown a pair and at last speaks up for what she really thinks…….Nah!

      Before all that however there will be a short statement to the chamber by FM Nicola Sturgeon

      Toodle oo the Noo hauds his breath and mumbles Aw Naw! script change, ring ring get me David Clegg, quick another VOW Davie Boy

    115. admiral says:

      Ken500 says:
      17 January, 2018 at 2:47 pm

      May crowing about Scotland having lower growth.

      Almost 311 years of the so-called “greatest union in the entire history of everything” and Scotland is in this state. Absolute no reason apart from gross political incompetence and economic mismanagement on a criminal scale by Westminster, who still after all control almost all of the economic levers in Scotland.

      As my mum was wont to say about any wrong ‘uns, “they should think black, burning shame of themselves”.

    116. Black Joan says:

      People stranded on the M74 last night were treated to some leading questions by Radio Pravda this morning — questions hoping for a semi-hysterical answer “No, it was disgraceful, we were totally abandoned, what a shambolic country, SNPBAD”.

      Disappointingly for Pravda, despite their ordeal, most motorists seemed good-humoured and grateful for the efforts the various emergency services made to look after them.

      Rather than SNPBAD it was more a mild case of motorists bad, for being unprepared and for blocking the hard shoulder which the police were trying to keep clear.

      Good to see people Tweeting thanks to Scotrail, too. I’ve been very impressed with efficient train travel today, and it’s obvious that a huge effort has gone into keeping platforms clear of snow and as safe as possible.

      Scotland there, getting on with the day job while the UKOK media ignores this latest Westminster insult and goes hunting for SNPBAD snow stories, and all in the interests of a regime which nurtures a shambolic Brexit, Carillion, Trident, benefits sanctions and the rest.

      Scotland has so much to be proud of. We need to celebrate it and guard it fiercely from useless Westminster Tories.

    117. colin alexander says:

      The whole Devolution settlement betrayed by the Tory UK Govt and Tories in Scotland.

      I’ve said it before. I’ll say it again:

      The SNP should resign administering WM devolution.

      Force a new election with the SNP seeking a mandate for independence by ending the Union.

    118. Dr Jim says:

      I thought the Fuckwit had flounced

    119. Dr Jim says:

      I thought the Fuckwit had flounced?

    120. AAD says:

      The BBC ignored an important piece of news. However, they have a nice piece in their website:

      in which they tell us how trustworthy they are in reporting the news in a evenhanded and impartial manner. It is worth a read. I am going to send in a complaint (I know I am wasting my time) and I will refer them to their own statement on how impartial and unbiased they are.

    121. Tam the Bam. says:

      As if to reinforce many comments above concerning the BBC giving the Scots tories an easy ride and indeed virtually IGNORING the Commons vote last night…Politics Scotland devoted approx. 4/5 mins on the topic.Totally Unacceptable.

      Incidentally …is Angela Haggerty still an advocate for Scottish Independence?

    122. Mike d says:

      Name me any other country in the world ,where 13 members of their own parliament would get away with backstabbing and selling out that country’s democratic rights. At the next sitting of holyrood, they should be slow handclapped into the chamber.

    123. Mark Fletcher says:

      Tory Patrician Dominic Grieve has just spoken glowingly twice in the HoC about his thirteen Scottish colleagues.

      He has given them what any toady and lickspittle most craves – a kind word and a pat on the head. Special mention also for their leader, Ruth Davidson.

      I bet their hearts are bursting with pride.

    124. Mike d says:

      C A. 3.28pm. I think eventually Its going to be the only course left open. They will leave us with no other choice. Then are we a big enough people to step up to the plate?.

    125. starlaw says:

      AAD 3-31

      Instead of sending BBC your complaint, put a copy here and on every place you can reach including facebook. I have already did similar regarding Honest Journalism.

    126. yesindyref2 says:

      The latest Yougov poll tables (if cloudfront link works) otherwise look up Yougov and Scottish Independence tracker:

      For me the interesting thing is that NO has stayed the same but YES moved down 2% BUT don’t know increased by 3% (rounding errors). I want to see don’t know increase and NO get below that 50% nect time.

      Holyrood voting intentions show exactly why we’ve been plagued with people telling us Indyref is no good, and shows what a load of cobblers those Indy supporters are spouting who want to leave Indy Ref to 2022 – that won’t happen if it’s not an overall majority SNP + Green.

      Personally I think the poll is OK, considering the media frenzy lately, and the sheer desperation of the trolls and actual unionist posters on the forums. They’re right to be in a panic, they ain’t seen nothin yet.

    127. wull2 says:

      I have a TV with only snow on it.
      Does that mean, it is the wrong type of snow with little coverage.

    128. Mike d says:

      I’d believe in father Christmas before a scottish Indy related yougov poll.

    129. yesindyref2 says:

      @Dr Jim
      Fuckwit has seen the yougov poll and would like to see a Holyrood election forced on an unwilling Scotland, resulting in a drop in support for the SNP, so we don’t get Indy Ref 2 for, oh, another generation which would be at least 4 years.

    130. Mike d says:

      How’s about a European polling company being commissioned to come in and do an indy poll. Nobody could claim biasness then.

    131. geeo says:

      Is that the Yougov which Tory MP Nadhim Zahawi as a part owner/director ?

    132. Ken500 says:

      The Poll was done before the latest Tory carry on. The last IndyRef vote increased nearly 20% during the Campaign. It could go up exceedingly again. The Poll could be miskeading in any case. They always have been. The Polling association has been censored and fined several time for ignoring the rules and poor methodology. Including the so called expert. They just get away with manipulation of the vote. Not banned or put in jail for gerrymandering. Dishonourable.

    133. izzie says:

      Those of us who are in these constituencies should write to the MPs and ask for an explanation. Having said that I await a reply from Kirstene Hair

    134. Mike d says:

      Yesindyref2. I’m not taking Ca’s side here, but if the scottish people are unwilling or unready to vote for the Snp in an election for an independence mandate, after all the sh**e and humiliation that westmidden insists on inflicting on us. Then we might just as well roll over and pull the covers over our head’s. Because if we are not ready now.then we’ll NEVER be f****g ready.

    135. galamcennalath says:

      The Yoon strategy is to talk down Scotland and everything Scottish.

      Project Scotland-is-Shite.

      We can challenge them at every turn, yes, but why run with their framing? Why let them set the agenda!

      Alternatively, we can do everything we can to talk up Scotland and promote the good things.

      So, vote for the Queenferry Crossing!

    136. Giving Goose says:


      Something that I noticed on occasion over the last 3-4 weeks is what amounts to a subliminal message when clicking between pages while in the BBC news site. The message flashed briefly when pages were loading and said “you can trust the BBC”. If you blinked you would miss it as it was so briefly on the screen.

    137. Thepnr says:

      Q. What do these two “leaders” have in common?

      “It will be a choice between strong and stable leadership in the national interest, with me as your Prime Minister”

      Theresa May, Conservative and Unionist Party 2017

      “establishing a strong and stable national government independent of ordinary party politics.”

      Vidkun Quisling, National Unity Party (of Norway) 1933

      A. Lots

      God save the queen
      The fascist regime
      They made you a moron (Tory voter)

      Sex Pistols 1977

    138. Mike d says:

      Starlaw 3.49pm. ‘Honest journalism’ ha ha, the liars couldnt even spell it.

    139. Ken500 says:

      The last IndyRef the Vote. increased from (estimated) 27% to 47%. Increased more. It increased another 20% of the (estimated) electoral vote. . Nearly 3/4 (75%) increase from starting point. Starting at 49% it would increase even more.

    140. Ken500 says:

      Another IndyRef would have to be before Brexit and before the next Holyrood election. Just in case.

    141. Petra says:

      Well I see that the BBC now have a ‘Scottish’ report online, however no mention of the fact that it was the Unlucky 13 that actually swung the vote. See too that they’re allowing people to post comments re. the article, in the main some real nasty Unionist supporters. Amazing how they pick and choose which news items to open to comments, eh!

      Let’s see if it’s reported on the news tonight and if so will they do it in such a way as to protect Ruth Davidson and her Tory cabal?

      I would have loved to have been a fly on the wall this week when Davidson visited her Big T English boss. How did that conversation go down? I’ve got a sneaking suspicion that Davidson (and Tomkins) knew that this would go against her party, may even generate more Indy support, but was told by Bossy that she REALLY needed the votes.

      I see that some people are griping about Nicola Sturgeon / the SNP. The cold, hard facts are, that Nicola Sturgeon will no doubt have a GREAT deal to say about this, but if the Media don’t interview her, or do and then edit what she has to say then that’s that. ‘THAT’ being what we are up against. The Establishment’s propaganda machine going FULL tilt. No doubt from now until we win Indyref2, which we WILL do against all odds.

      What WE CAN do is phone or email the BBC and STV (etc) every day asking why they’re not informing the Scots about ….. whatever. You just have to check out John Robertson’s site, alone, for ammunition on a daily basis. I’ve already sent an email off to one and phoned the other today about this particular fiasco. It only took a couple of minutes. If we would ALL do that they might just get the message. Left to a handful of people you can just forget it.

      And as someone has mentioned already if we didn’t have the National there would be nothing but biased front page news headlines on EVERY newspaper stand in the land. If you don’t buy it or subscribe to it PLEASE start thinking of doing so now.

      A few phone calls or emails, a few letters to Unionist newspapers now and again and putting your hand in your pocket to buy a daily newspaper. Not a lot to ask for to help us get our FREEDOM. Is it?

    142. Alba Jock says:

      I for one wish they would all just go away!! If you have friends and they lie and back-stab you, try to con you out of your life you would disown them for sure.

      When will this nation awaken to the truth and put these liars front and centre and challenge them. If I was in the jungle I would ask Nicola to get me out of here!So,,, NS get me the hell out of here. This is getting too outrageous and the anger is about to boil over.

    143. Shug says:

      The thing you have to remember is that real unionists are quite happy to see an end to the Scottish Parliament so job done

    144. yesindyref2 says:

      @Mike d
      I think if the SNP called an early election (even if they were able) to get a mandate for an Indy Ref, much of the Scottish public would be asking “how many mandates do you need, you’ve already got half a dozen”.

      And if they called one on the basis of UDI, I’d emigrate, because UDI would be suicidal.

      Patience is needed, it’s been and still is a long-drawn knockout process since June 2016, but only a few more months to go and then as Ken500 says, we’re starting at 49%, or 43% if anyone believes the Yougov poll which does NOT poll 16-17 year-olds as SGP points out (and I checked the table).

    145. Cactus says:

      Greetings frae Loch Awe.

      It is a whiteout.

      The side of it.


    146. Thepnr says:

      I’m guessing that tomorrows Tory question at FMQ’s will be about Scotrail. Trains are running late again apparently. SNPBADD!

    147. Robert Graham says:

      Two hopes for Thursday

      No 1 – I hope Nicola pisses off the presiding officer by instead of answering bloody stupid Tory questions she goes for the throats of these Tory b/reds , make them justify their MPs actions , don’t let any political waffle disguised as a question go un challenged , interrupt them immediately .

      No 2 – Alex comes out guns blazing and gives a true assessment of Tory Britain , he has been pretty quiet since his show started , Now devolution is as dead as the Union let’s get some mischief started , give the b/reds something to moan about .

    148. Dave McEwan Hill says:

      I get a YouGov poll every second day at least. I have never had a political one. I identified some time ago as an SNP supporter. Do you think that disqualified me from their political polls?

    149. Fireproofjim says:

      Mike d@ 4.10
      You rightly complain about many Scots being unwilling to vote for the SNP in the light of all the lies and treachery imposed on us by the media, but many Scots take no interest in politics. They simply don’t know they are being lied to, and are not as aware as Wings followers of what is going on. Without this site and The National there would be wall to wall support for the Union.
      The SNP MUST go on the attack against the BBC at every opportunity. They have nothing to lose by refusing to speak to them or calling out their bias in every interview.
      Th BBC can’t be worse than they are now so why pander to them?
      Having said that a new YES campaign will wake up many of the sleepers as it did in 2014, and 47%-49% is a great place to start.

    150. Petra says:

      @ Black Joan says at 3:23 pm …. ”People stranded on the M74 last night were treated to some leading questions by Radio Pravda this morning — questions hoping for a semi-hysterical answer “No, it was disgraceful, we were totally abandoned, what a shambolic country, SNPBAD”. Disappointingly for Pravda, despite their ordeal, most motorists seemed good-humoured and grateful for the efforts the various emergency services made to look after them….”

      I noticed that on the BBC this morning Joan. It was a right laugh that they couldn’t find ANYONE to complain about anything, far less the SNP. All pretty chipper in fact. One young girl who’d been stuck in her car for hours with her mother, was freezing and had had nothing to eat, when asked if she wasn’t concerned about the situation said yes she was. She was (genuinely) concerned that she was due to start her work in 20 minutes time. That shut them right up, lol.

    151. Legerwood says:

      Thepnr says:
      17 January, 2018 at 4:37 pm
      I’m guessing that tomorrows Tory question at FMQ’s will be about Scotrail. Trains are running late again apparently. SNPBADD!
      The trains I used today were all fine and could not see any sign of problems e.g. cancellation of services at Waverley.

      Wonder how hard the BBC had to look, and for how long, to find a problem?

    152. For goodness sake folks why are you still going on about their phoney polls they only represent the opinions of the people they ask and they never tell you how many they asked or where they asked for any poll to be believed you would have to ask the whole country concerned and if they got A poll that should freedom to be ahead they would not tell you they are a unionist ploy to try to make the gullable think that a minority represents a majority when in fact the majority have not been asked its called tactics

    153. Clootie says:

      …I’m still in shock at the three key components of this story.
      1) The Tories lied…again :-/
      2) The BBC ignored the story (unlike their in depth coverage of Brexit Impact assessment-sarcasm)
      3) That anyone is surprised by 1) and 2)

    154. Mike d says:

      Blair p. You got it in one.wake up Scotland ffs

    155. CameronB Brodie says:

      British nationalism is an ideology aimed at creating a national identity that is resilient, strong and stable, if you like. In order to do so, it must establish and protect the boundaries of the British state. The media and culture industry’s ‘totalisation’ of informed opinion, plays a vital role in this process.

      For example, the BBC is Charter bound to encourage social cohesion within the UK. Another way of viewing this duty, is the BBC has a duty to undermine pluralism of thought, hence their animosity towards half of Scotland’s electorate. The BBC is a vehicle for the dissemination of British nationalism, which is an expansionist form of English nationalism.

    156. Jockanese Wind Talker says:

      Probably not too hard @Legerwood says: 17 January, 2018 at 4:44 pm

      “Wonder how hard the BBC had to look, and for how long, to find a problem?”

      I’m assuming they have a compliant BritNat Labour in Scotland Trades Unionist on speed dial to provide EssEnnPeeBaaaad as and when required.

    157. Scottish Steve says:

      Even if this story was shouted from the rooftops in the media everyday, I doubt it would have much impact. Unionist Scots are a servile bunch and will defend their London masters come what may. They’d stick up for them even if every Commons session began with the sacrifice of a Scottish infant instead of a morning prayer. They are more outraged by that Sturgeon woman bringing in baby boxes.

      You are preaching to the converted here, Rev. Good work regardless. But this sort of story will not upset unionists. It will make them positively delighted. The more Scotland is controlled by those nice politicians in Westminster the better. What is best for Scotland does not matter to them. Being ruled from London makes them feel all warm, fuzzy and British inside, and that’s all that matters.

      It reminds me of when I asked my Orange Order uncle why he supported the Union. “We fought two wars together” was his answer. Says it all really.

    158. Mike d says:

      Fireproofjim 4.43pm. Agree. I just get so frustrated at times with my countrymen/women. When everyone/countries can see the undemocratic slyness which is being used against us as a nation.

    159. Footsoldier says:

      STV News is next to useless. No comment at all in their politics section. They tend to copy the BBC; very much an establishment line, never anything radical

    160. farnorthdavie says:

      No sign of this on STV either but they did cover the Transport Minister apologising to those stuck in their cars because its winter. FFS!!!!! (please remove superfluous exclamation marks as you see fit).

    161. Mike d says:

      Scottish Steve. Good post, it rings a few bells with relatives of mine. But they are gradually seeing the light/truth.

    162. Dr Jim says:


      Only got one hand working waiting for an operation on my shoulder (and it’s the one I use) so sorry for slow reply

      Where’s heedy when you need sombody to play with this guy

    163. Legerwood says:

      yesindyref2 says:
      17 January, 2018 at 2:37 pm
      From the BBC article: He (Kerr) warned that the bill was leaving the Commons in an “unsatisfactory state”.

      But he voted against the amendment to safeguard devolution.””

      There was a piece on Reporting Scotland last night about the debate. It lead off with a clip of Mr Kerr speaking in the debate apparently supporting Labour’s amendment. Then a Labour MP. No mention of the SNP’s contribution to the debate apart from a short interview with Mr Gethins outside on the Commons Green! Subliminal message or what?

      The piece ended with the reporter quoting, approvingly, from Mr Kerr’s contribution and again giving the impression that the Tories would support the ammendment.

      Hardly any wonder then that giving such a misleading impression of Tory intentions the BBC has not reported the reality.

      Mr Kerr is, unfortunately, my MP and I have noticed since his election that our local paper seems to have regular, very regular, articles about him. In contrast, when it was an SNP MP he was nearly invisible when it came to coverage by the local paper.

      It may seem trivial but such coverage does give the impression in the constituency that an MP is ‘doing something’. I wonder how many of the other Tory MPs in Scotland are being promoted in this way in their local papers?

      Do people keep an eye on their local papers and what they are up to with things like This?

    164. Thepnr says:


      Three headlines from yesterday and there were more on Monday:

      ScotRail lands in bottom half of UK survey into rail providers commuters are fed up with Glasgow Evening Times 18:10 Tue, 16 Jan

      ScotRail ranks bottom in Scotland says consumer watchdog study The Scottish Herald 01:53 Tue, 16 Jan

      Analysis: ScotRail under scrutiny as performance is reviewed The Scottish Herald 01:53 Tue, 16 Jan

    165. Thepnr says:

      Nothing on Scotrail so far from the BBC though. Maybe saving it for tomorrow after FMQ for Brian Taylor to give us the SNPBADD “news”.

      It’s a consistant drip! drip! drip! That’s how propaganda works.

    166. Torrance will be on Gorilla TV’s News at Six assuring us colonial serfs that the Baker’s Yoonzen voted with their Puppet Masters because we should all be right behind getting the best Brexit Deal for England.
      Back in your boxes, tenement dwelling semi educated thieves and vandals.(Oh, how they laughed at Ruth at Party Conference.)
      Where the fuck is Ruth hiding? What has that Dick ‘The Scarf’ Leonard got to say about it?
      Surely he should be ripping Davidson’s lungs out right now?
      And Wee Willie Winkie?
      Come out come out wherever you are,you little Winker.
      We are approaching Bastille Day Tipping Point.
      I see the List Tory MSPs have voted down retrospectively chasing Police VAT from previous years.
      They are the enemy within.

    167. Gary45% says:

      Jack collatin@5.18
      And I have a Scots Plod neighbour who votes Tory!!!

    168. Donald Bruce says:

      Now I know why at the freedom referendum some Tory papers said that the Scots were not capable of running Scotland. They obviously had only met their Scottish members.They are incapable of any clear thinking. Having to ask their Westminster masters which way to vote.

    169. Gary45% says:

      Noticed my local paper doing this in 2014 with promoting Fanny Alexander.
      Stopped buying it then and have never bought it since.

    170. Clydebuilt says:

      The YES movement should be delivering flyers through every letterbox in Scotland with this news.

    171. Breeks says:

      Thepnr says:
      17 January, 2018 at 4:37 pm

      “I’m guessing that tomorrows Tory question at FMQ’s will be about Scotrail. Trains are running late again apparently. SNPBADD!”

      What does Labour’s schedule of Press releases say? The BBC won’t trust Labour or the Tories to ad lib spontaneous questions that haven’t been vetted in advance.

    172. Andy Anderson says:

      I thought the media was awful in 2014 but now it is being subversive. To me it is like a country being extreme left or right in politics. Scary.

    173. galamcennalath says:

      Donald Bruce says:

      Scots were not capable of running Scotland. They obviously had only met their Scottish members.

      Perhaps it works out like this …

      The Too Poor Scots. That will be the Labour voters who haven’t quite sussed out that their party is largely to blame for their poverty.

      The Too Wee Scots. That will be the LibDem voters who fail to realise that their party is too wee to make any difference.

      The Too Stupid Scots. That will be the Tory voters who are stupid enough to think the BritNat ruling elite actually care a damn about them.

    174. Bob Mack says:

      What we are witnessing at this time is the implementation of many research pieces and public opinion soundings.

      It is not haphazard nor arbitrary. Governments spend a lot of money on research and strategists. They are now implementing the result of that work. Be in no doubt. It is being coordinated by a Central body and involves those in positions of power within the media, and in political and community life. It will also involve leaders of community organisation and those groups with ties to the Union by either tradition or employment.

      Now the question we have to ask ourselves is how effectively we are counteracting these strategies. I suggest we are not. There is no central coordination and that is a big failing.

      The SNP do not openly associate with Wings who is probably the foremost supporter of indy. Media like Bella, Common space focus on their own agendas rather than a united front. They and the National give voice to anti independence individuals and groups. I. E. Green ink brigade.

      Until we work as a unit we will always be disadvantaged.

      If we are going to fight,let’s do it right.

    175. K1 says:

      No one’s ‘surprised’ we’re just fucking ragin’ aboot it, rightly so. At least we get to vent on here and there are millions of us…never forget that…that tiny cabal of Tory fucks placed their by dimwitted Tory voter numpties, will never be forgotten, never, for their betrayal of this country at this perilous time.

    176. Andy-B says:

      It was only a few weeks back that it was on 49% Panelbase.

      So I’m rather dubious of the latest poll.

    177. uno mas says:

      Phantom Power
      Journey from No to Yes #20 just out now.

      Don´t miss it, it´s a belter.

      Especialy if you´re from Dundee -:)

    178. K1 says:

      The Yes vote is rising ‘in spite’ of all of this pish. Can we just remember that? More and more people are moving toward yes, not no. This will reach sections of the population that have heretofore not been reached.

      They want a war. We should not give them war, we should continue to do what we are all doing, use your voice, keep talking to people, keep telling them what is going on. We will win by word of mouth, Stu provides the ammunition, we are the guns, now fire intae them…light the fires on the hills…Westiminster is coming for Scotland, be prepared to fight till the end.

      It is not over yet. By a long shot.

    179. Lenny Hartley says:

      Andy-b like all Yougov polls it excludes 16-18 years olds and if past polls are anything to go by will have more respondents in the 55 and over range, although these are meant to be weighed , im suspicious on why they do this in the first olace.

    180. Ian Brotherhood says:

      SIU Burns Dinner is in Club 29, Royal Exchange Sq, Glasgow, on Friday Feb 2nd at 7pm.

      If you want to ask Murdo Fraser, Alistair Carmichael and Johann Lamont for their autographs and see some of SIU’s ‘grassroots’ members turning up for their £40 a skull dinner, best to be there nice and early.


    181. Ottomanboi says:

      The Scottish people are being lied to and manipulated by the unionist/imperialist media.
      It is high time Scottish nationalism moved from simmer to rapid boil.

    182. Karmanaut says:

      Fuming about this. When the next indyref comes, I’ll be chapping a lot of doors and reminding a lot of people.

    183. Glamaig says:

      Andy-B says:
      17 January, 2018 at 5:51 pm

      ‘It was only a few weeks back that it was on 49% Panelbase.
      So I’m rather dubious of the latest poll.’

      I think the Revs poll perfectly demonstrated the importance of how you phrase the question in polls. His gender question also illustrated that very well.

    184. Macart says:

      But wait! It gets better.

      Just check out the Rev’s twitter feed on the Scottish budget debate.

      I don’t think there words adequate enough to describe the truly epic clusterfeck that is Labour and Conservative political practice.

      Just jaw dropping.

    185. dave Stewart says:


      You have it correct about Johnston Press etc and Tory MPs.

      My local had a full 4 page front cover at xmas extolling the virtues of a young clown called Mr Clappy, soon to be available for children’s parties.
      Wonder how much it cost, no not really, it was surely just a small donation paid for by the BBC tax

    186. Tinto Chiel says:

      Scottish Steve:”It reminds me of when I asked my Orange Order uncle why he supported the Union. “We fought two wars together” was his answer. Says it all really.”

      Yes, but it was the Scots who died in disproportionate numbers. Oh, sorry, that’s us grievance-seeking again, Steve.

      K1@5.56: absolutely. And we haven’t even begun our campaign.

    187. Les Wilson says:

      I had never noticed this before I would suppose very many will have missed it. A must watch, that puts England’s intentions for Scotland firmly in it’s place. Shameful.

    188. frogesque says:

      Why, exactly, does Humza Yousaf have to apologize for it snowing in Scotland?

      Fuck me, it’s winter, it’s Scotland, it fucking well snows!

      The M74 (A74 under Labour) has always been difficult, I remember travelling north along it about 30 years ago, cars and lorries sliding off all over the place and if idiots decide to block up the hard shoulder that’s hardly the fault of the emergency services

      And still narry a peep about last night’s vote on STV.

      Oh look a squirrel, the Bayaeux tapestry might go to England!

    189. Robert Louis says:

      BBC in Scotland = paid liars, dancing an English colonial jig.


      ANY actual REAL journalist would have literally been all over this story. It has the power to run and run and run*.

      (*except for viewers in Scotland).

    190. frogesque says:

      Now we have a bloody hedgepig swimming in a bath.

      Followed by a Party Political on behalf of the Abstention Party.

    191. PictAtRandom says:

      Just been dipping in to the BBC “Dirty Dozen” thread and it seems that pro-Indy comments are winning from the up-arrows. So do we know how many people click on these threads (as opposed to WoS) or would that be an FOI question?

    192. geeo says:

      The recent increase in oil price to $70/barrel is a good excuse to remind people of the great unionist oil revenue swindle …

      And throw this article at it.

    193. Robert Louis says:

      Frogesque at 623pm,

      QUOTE “Why, exactly, does Humza Yousaf have to apologize for it snowing in Scotland?

      Fuck me, it’s winter, it’s Scotland, it fucking well snows!“.

      EXACTLY. And it does so, every year. Utter nonsense from the frankly ridiculous so-called ‘Scottish’ media.

    194. John Young says:

      O/T From Twitter @TrulyScottishtv

      “I have approx 2 months to persuade 2 potential backers that our tv channels can and should move to the next level. So far, I’ve not managed to achieve their target of 2857 per day for 1 day never mind 3 consecutive months ”

      This service is good. If you have a Smart TV, type on the internet screen. Five channels with loads of interesting stuff. Give it a try.

    195. galamcennalath says:

      Tinto Chiel says:

      We fought two wars together

      Really pisses me off that one. The nostalgia argument for the Union. It’s the only one they really have.

      I always reply with something like …. we should be voting for the best future for our children and not in the memory of those who have passed.

    196. Ken500 says:

      The last three elections. GE and Holyrood the Polls were out 10%. If they try to devolve powers from the Scottish Gov. There will be a massive backlash. Same as the Indy Ref. The Scottish Gov just do but have to sign through the Brexit deal. Wales is making contingency Laws. So their devolved Powers can’t be changed. The powers must be there.

      Growth is 0.2 a month. Total 2.4 a year. More than the rest of the UK? – 1.7? May/MSM lying again. Regugitated lies.

    197. Ken500 says:

      Using the monthly growth rate for Scotland, The yearly one for the rest of the UK? Usual not comparing like with like. Total ignorant incompetence. Just unbelieveable.

    198. heedtracker says:

      London Times today has front page Corbyn bounce now over, for SLab, as they slump in polls.

      and so, tada! Have to marvel at the sheer gall of yoon culture in Scotland today.

      Kezia Dugdale MSP?Verified account
      Follow Follow @kezdugdale

      After tonight’s vote in the Commons it’s clear that Scottish Tory MPs aren’t just failing to stand up for Scotland’s interest – they are actively working against it ?????#forshame #brexit

    199. Macart says:

      Y’know, not to beat about the bush here. The devolution settlement that is the basis and binding of the current UK has just been shit upon from a great height by the current UK government and their poodles.

      That receives only a passing mention on the Beeb site and practically nowhere else today, is an absolute crime to the peoples of the United Kingdom. They’ve been stabbed in the back by their political class and abandoned by their media en masse.

      It is just that serious.

      In what universe, what reality, does any of the actions taken by these (fill in as appropriate) seem right or ethical? They’ll do the same thing tomorrow and not one of them will miss a night’s sleep either. They’ll still be able to use a mirror and they’ll still demand your respect, your support and your loyalty.

      Laaaydeeez and ginnamin. I give you the establishment political class and their pet meeja. Not a single moral between the lot of them.

      Quite an achievement.

    200. Tinto Chiel says:

      “The nostalgia argument for the Union. It’s the only one they really have.”

      And if they read “Scotland’s War Losses” by old soldier Duncan Duff, galamcennalath, they wouldn’t even have that.

      The on-line version by Electric Scotland strangely seems to be no longer available.

      Funny, dat.

    201. Mike d says:

      Galamcennalath. Yes.i think the people who laid down their lives in those wars, would be turning in their graves when the right wing fascists they fought against,are ruling us today’and discriminating against the poor,disabled,low paid,etc. Yes it seems their sacrifice was in vain. One tory mp talking about vasectomies for benefit claimants. How long till it’s legalised euthanasia?. Be very careful who you vote for proudscotbuts.

    202. Graeme says:

      I’m as angry as anyone about that Westminster vote and these 13 tory traytirs but they acted out of hate and anger hatred for the SNP and anger because they’re losing,and I believe at the end of the day that hate & anger will destroy them and their precious union.

      I can’t see how this will do anything to further their cause in fact it will damage their cause and bring more people over to yes, that’s what happens when you allow hate and rage to cloud your judgment you make bad decisions.

      The YES movement can capitalise on this but we must stay calm and stay focused, leave the anger & hatred to them and we will win in the end, I honestly believe that

    203. yesindyref2 says:

      Yeah, polls, but there is interesting stuff there, took me time to find some. Labour from Oct to Jan: for Holyrood headline

      18-24 rose from 30% to 35%
      25-49 rose from 23% to 26%
      50-64 dropped from 25% to 20%
      65 + dropped from 24% to 18%

      What changed? Leonard. So perhaps the younger are hopeful Leonard and Corbyn will give them socialism, whereas the older are not impressed. But according to Rev’s poll Indy and the EU is high amongst the younger, lower the older, and Lab voters quite high anyway (40%?) for Indy.

      So yeah, SNP losing some younger voters, gaining just a few older ones. Small changes all the same.

      Yougov Oct and Yougov Jan

      Can’t peer any more. My eyes my eyes!

    204. Calum McKay says:

      Bevan was right, tpries are lower than vermin!

      It’s in their DNA – “Rattus Norvegicus”.

    205. Ken500 says:

      Did May tell a complete lie in Westminster? Sure she claimed growth in Scotland was 0.2 (month). Then claimed growth rate in rest of the UK was 0.8? (Month or Year) Continued to compare them. Sniddy. That would make rest of the UK 9.6 a year. That is a complete and utter lie.

    206. Bob Mack says:

      A few years ago I left Perth on the A9 heading South at 11.oopm. By the time I drove one mile, the snow came on ,and within five minutes I could see nothing through my windscreen. Discretion being the better part of valour I pulled in to what I thought was a lay bye. I could not read a sign that was there as it was obliterated by snow. .

      Lorry after lorry thundered past doing over 50 mph downhill whilst I sat there unable to move or gain traction. Low profile wide wheels do not work in snow.

      Eventually a snowplough came along and I followed whilst he gritted. Since then I have always kept chains in the boot and change to snow tyres in winter.

      The fault was mine in not being prepared for winter driving.

    207. yesindyref2 says:

      THAT’S what I meant to look at. Corbyn “doing well” across the age groups (this Jan).

      % Well! – 46, 42, 41, 33
      % Badly – 30, 38, 43, 56

      Ah, the optimism of youth!

    208. yesindyref2 says:

      That’s overall by the way, not split by party I need a fag and a cuppa and I f’ing well deserve one. Or two 🙂

    209. Abulhaq says:

      The Bayeux tapestry, a pictorial account of the conquest of England by Guillaume le conquérant, Duc de Normandie, is coming to Britain, newspeak for London.
      The media present this as of significance to all the peoples of the these islands. Their history, not ours, rules. Very Norman.

    210. Legerwood says:

      Thepnr says:
      17 January, 2018 at 5:13 pm

      Three headlines from yesterday and there were more on Monday:

      ScotRail lands in bottom half of UK survey into rail providers commuters are fed up with Glasgow Evening Times 18:10 Tue, 16 Jan

      ScotRail ranks bottom in Scotland says consumer watchdog study The Scottish Herald 01:53 Tue, 16 Jan

      Analysis: ScotRail under scrutiny as performance is reviewed The Scottish Herald 01:53 Tue, 16 Jan

      I noticed the rash of articles about Scotrail over the last day or two. I travel by train fairly regularly and have no complaints about the service.

      The report yesterday in the Herald was its usual garbled reportage of statistics. Kept saying fares had gone up in Scotland without pointing out the fares had gone up across the UK.

      Also kept saying that Scotrail was rated lowest of ‘train companies operating in Scotland’. That is an apple and pears comparison since the other companies quoted are not providing commuter services or full raft of daily, local services.

      As often as not delays are due to signal or track problems which are the responsibility of Network Rail and below the main article the Herald did have an article along those lines.

    211. colin alexander says:


      Is this from the same people that argue that Scotland’s people have maintained their sovereignty?

      By the same reasoning the UK has just declared UDI from the EU, by deciding to leave, BY WESTMINSTER MPS vote, as the EU-ref was advisory. MPs made the decision.

      By Westminster’s interpretation of the UK constitution it’s MPs not an indyref or any other referendum that decides anything.

      So, an indyref even with an S30 would be advisory; ministerial agreements worthless.

      So any indy would be decided by WM MPs.

      If you want indy on those terms, hell will freeze over first, if you’re waiting for a fair indy settlement from those who totally oppose it.

    212. Ian Brotherhood says:

      ‘Would you be supportive of peaceful civil disobedience if WM moves to shut down the Scottish parliament?’

      Currently 93% Yes after 30 votes. Runs until midnight Saturday.

      Could those who do FB please share there. Thanks.

    213. Mike d says:

      Yesindyref2. Ah well we were all young once and had ideals. Once they (younger voters) get to my/our age.their idealism will take a lightswitch moment.,When they realise they were lied to by their liebor socialist saviours .No fools like young fools. Apologies to any switched on younger voter’s.

    214. Petra says:

      Not a dicky bird about last nights vote on STV.

      Misery for motorists / apology from Transport Minister.

      GCC has voted unanimously not to appeal the Equal Pay case. First time it’s been voted on in 11 years. Test cases over the moon talking about it dragging on for years. No mention that it dragged on due to the Labour Party. Labour Councillor still getting a word in as if they brought this about. Going to cost Hundreds of Millions.

      RBS closures. Due to customer behaviour. Not down to money. (I reckon we should all pull our money out of RBS – check out their attitude at Westminster meeting).

      Nun abuse.

      Extended leave for bereaved parents. Amendments to Bereaved Parent Bill.

      No current murder to report on STV so as per usual they dredge up the ten year old murder of the Orkney girl in NZ.

      Celtic will have to wait on Martin somebody.


      On STV 2 at 7:00pm … Tapestry and the springer spaniel that made a £1 million.


      BBC news with Jackie Liar.

      Ten minutes spent on the weather / transport / school closures. Someone at least mentioned gritters have been out for 24 hours.

      Royal Bank of Scotland closures.

      Nun abuse story.

      Teachers should be trained to deal with children with mental health issues. SNP should deal with it.

      Scotland’s lousy economic figures in comparison to UKs.

      Oil news: Three oil rigs that have to be scrapped can’t be moved.

      Swimming hedgehog.

      ********* AND then Jackie Bird said they are about to vote tonight. SNP attempted to throw it out. Now being left to the Lords. (Lord) Jim Wallace had his say as did Foulkes saying something along threatening lines. I couldn’t believe my ears. Then they showed footage of a building with scaffolding outside and I thought they had moved onto a Carillion story but no. More gobbledygook.

      To be honest it was the most disjointed garbage that I couldn’t follow it (take notes), never mind someone who doesn’t have a clue about this.

      If anyone can get their hands on the BBC 6:30 news footage, get it on here as you won’t believe your ears.

    215. yesindyref2 says:

      @Mike d
      Yes indeed. But perhaps that will change sooner as they watch Corbyn and Leonard. In any case it seems to indicate socialism as opposed to Toryism, which is good for Indy. I agree about polls by the way, but it’s useful to also take them at face value. You can bet that what I did painfully with a + + on the pdf and scraps of paper, the parties have done by shoving the figures into a spreadsheet or even program, and checking trends in seconds. Not as an absolute rule, but to guide policy – and strategy.

      Stats as a whole can be very useful, I did them on a couple of gigs in my previous life, and it was one back in the mid-70s before oil started to bite, that showed me from a full data model (not just samples) that Scotland was perfectly capable of running ourselves with just our onshore economy, and nothing I’ve seen since has ever changed my mind on that. Never saw that published, kind of like the McCrone report.

    216. Ghillie says:

      Felt sick last night when first heard this ghastly news from Wingers and then followed it on twitter.

      Zero coverage on STV online news.

      Have any international news programmes covered it?

      Am going to sign up to John Mackays email news link and start asking him questions I doubt he’ll want to answer.

      And text friends who might not have heard Scotland is now in very choppy waters.

      It’s a start and what I can do for now.

      A new parcel of rogues. That’s putting it politely.

      Angry. So sad and so angry.

    217. manandboy says:

      When Theresa May called a so-called ‘snap’ General Election for June 8th 2017, did she get lucky in ousting 21 SNP MP’s including Angus Robertson, Alex Salmond and Tasmina Ahmed-Sheikh, three thorns in Theresa May’s side in the House of Commons and leading an SNP bloc of 51 MP’s which constituted a major obstacle to the Tories Brexit plans?

      Sure, things didn’t go well for May in England, but they could not have gone better in Scotland as we can all see very clearly in the time since.
      Strategically, the 21 MP’s the SNP lost have proved of far greater significance than the 13 Scottish MP’s which the Tories gained. It is arguable that the 2017GE served its Tory -planned purpose, and luck had nothing to do with it.

    218. Tam the Bam. says:

      Well the Bakers Dozen dutifully trooped through the Gov Lobby and tugged their collective forelock (no surprise there) and started a search for a ‘spine.’

    219. Elmac says:

      Apologies for being O/T

      Trump may have a clean bill of health but he can’t escape his name:

      Trump: Create false charges
      Trump: Break wind loudly
      Trump: Use superior power
      Trump: Outdo
      Trumpet: Shout, bellow or roar
      Trumpet: Blow your own horn
      DT: Delirium tremens
      Trumpton: Where it all began

      Looks like we will be stuck with the Donald for a while yet.

    220. Ghillie says:

      STV News : Fraser Wilson 0141 300 3293

      Left a message for the gent.

      Told him story in case he hadn’t heard it…

      And that the real news story might be the complete news black out on all British channels.

      John Mackay’s email thingy doesn’t seem to be there any more…

    221. cirsium says:

      OT – I have just read this article about Carillion on a US site

      Interesting btl comments including calling the BBC “neoliberalism’s Lord HawHaw”

      It is arguable that the 2017GE served its Tory -planned purpose, and luck had nothing to do with it.

      Agreed. I wondered at the time about the number of Ruth Davidson election leaflets which I received through the mail. Then I read later that the Conservative party had accrued a massive war chest between January and March 2017.

    222. Scottish Steve says:

      @Mike d

      My uncle will never see the light. He’s an insular, racist, selfish person. The last time he came to visit, he was talking about how Muslims were “outbreeding” Christians. He failed to explain why this was a problem. He has also never been religious in his life. He is a bigot, plain and simple. What makes it worse is that his mum (my Gran) is a Catholic but he sees no issue with being in the OO.

      Even my late grandfather once said, “I might be a Freemason but I sure as hell am not Orange.”

      @Tinto Chiel

      Any complaints Scots make about the system is “grievance-mongering.” Apparently we’re not allowed to criticise the government in a democracy. Well, criticise the Scottish Government because it’s full of those horrible SNP types but you must not criticise the Westminster government. The sainted English who rule us are beyond reproach. To criticise them is to be ANTI-ENGLISH and as we all know, that’s worse than being a Nazi for these unionists.

    223. colin alexander says:

      Let’s not forget: these Tory rats got elected because the Unionists came out fighting for the Union at the General Election.

      The SNP stood for keeping Scotland strong at Westminster. Oh and for a mandate for an indyref that they already had. So double mandate became triple mandate. So, effectively the SNP stood for NOTHING and half a million YES supporters didn’t bother to vote.

      That’s the price now being paid for an SNP adopting the same “entitlement” attitude as Scottish Labour, expecting the electorate to keep voting for them when they don’t deliver on their independence promises.

      And still no answer to independence supporters on whether there will be an indyref or any other strategy to gain independence.

    224. stewartb says:

      galamcennalath @ 6:31 pm and Tinto Chiel:

      Say: “We fought two wars together. Really pisses me off that one. The nostalgia argument for the Union. It’s the only one they really have. I always reply with something like …. we should be voting for the best future for our children and not in the memory of those who have passed.”

      I recall this topic coming up here BTL in November last year .. and it remains an important mindset thing. Then galamcennalath (I think) said: ‘…. We should make decisions for the generations to come, not in memory of those which have passed.”

      I agreed then and still do strongly. I’ve always been with Thomas Jefferson, principal author of the US Declaration of Independence, when he stated:

      “I like the dreams for the future better than the history of the past.” 

      These factors may explain a key divide in attitude – and in imagination and aspiration – between those supporting Scottish independence and those insisting that Scotland must always remain wedded to the Union – to the past.

    225. CameronB Brodie says:

      We aren’t the nationalists, that’s the yoons. Most yoons are probably unaware that their sense of patriotism to Britain, is actually patriotism to England. Scots aren’t stupid though, it won’t take much more of this before a large portion of the No vote decides their loyalty was bought with empty promises and psychological intimidation. The Brexit charabanc hasn’t even managed to conclude stage one yet. Give it time. 😉

      P.S. Careful you don’t get accused of stoking non-peaceful action.

    226. Artyhetty says:

      re; Petra@7.25

      Thanks for the low down on the UKok media and their slapdash twaddle. Goodness it sounds like a comedy show it really does. Out to confuse, and con, they are really taking the rip out of Scotland’s people. Like Alice through the looking glass, who knows what the devil you may find when you switch on the box these days! I can hear the bbc voices on my next door neighbours tv, if in my wee cold studio, if I don’t get the headphones on, and anyone would think they were saying something important and even genuine. Rather than important lies and wall to wall propaganda. Every time I think, god you are being so brain washed neighbour!

      WOS page has shrunk this evening, like it used to when things like Britnat lies about oil, or trident, or GERS was being pulled apart, hasn’t happened in ages. I am sure that the Britnats are hoping to shrink the Scottish parliament, particulary the SNP. Let’s make sure they grow and ensure that Tweedle dee and dum, those working in the interests of their London masters, are taken down to size for shafting Scotland!

    227. Artyhetty says:

      Re; Cameron B Brodie@8.12

      I would agree, and say definitely no talk of even ‘peaceful’ resistance because it is exactly what the Britnats are hoping for. We can be sure false flags would be conscripted to cause violence. I have seen them at marches, listening devices and all. We bide our time, we support the SNP in whatever way we can, and we share info. Simple.

    228. Ottomanboi says:

      Nationalize Scotland’s rail network, create a Scottish state bank, abolish hereditary titles, call an independence referendum, resist the imperious British state…..what the party of Scottish nationalism might consider while awaiting that Brexit deal over which we know it has zero influence.

    229. uno mas says:

      @ Ottomanboi


    230. CameronB Brodie says:

      So, effectively the SNP stood for NOTHING and half a million YES supporters didn’t bother to vote.

      That’s the price now being paid for an SNP adopting the same “entitlement” attitude as Scottish Labour, expecting the electorate to keep voting for them when they don’t deliver on their independence promises.

      colin alexander
      The SNP stood on a manifesto that was relevant to the governance of Scotland, as the vote was to elect Members of the Scottish Parliament. It was the Yoons and the media who conflated an election with a vote on independence. You appear keen to continue the misrepresentation.

      So, what’s your game?

    231. yesindyref2 says:

      We all know what’s going to happen anyway, Mackay finds an extra £150 million, the Greens get street creds, Labour got egg on their faces walking into a trap with their eyes open, and the Tories, well, yes they are as are the LibDems.

      Once a stooge, always a stooge, the three stooges.

      I think they all post on Wings! But which is which …

    232. Tinto Chiel says:

      Samuel Adams, American patriot during their War of Independence, seemed to know something of the “Scottish” Tory mind:

      “If ye love wealth better than liberty, the tranquility of servitude better than the animating contest of freedom, go home from us in peace. We ask not your counsels or arms. Crouch down and lick the hands which feed you. May your chains set lightly upon you, and may posterity forget that ye were our countrymen.”


      Would love to hear the FM tell the 13 to GTF in such an elegant way.

    233. handclapping says:

      Its all part of a cunning plan!

      It deliberately shows that the results of referendums eg 1997 do not need to be respected so that when Jeremy comes off his fence and declares for Brexit TMay can abandon 2016, paint Lab as the perpe-("Tractor" - Ed)s and the Tories will rule in the sunshine for another 20 years

      or else my meds have run out 🙁

    234. Meg merrilees says:

      Shocking indeed that 13 Tories, who are cynically being helped to create the false impression that things are really getting done when they take control, have deliberately voted with their great big ‘grown up’, immature, NASTY Tory party, against every other Scots MP, cross-party, and shafted Scotland, Wales and N.Ireland.

      I even read that my MP – Stephen Kerr urged the government not to underestimate the “depth of disappointment and frustration” felt by him and his colleagues over the delay to its promised amendments.
      He added: “The government had control of the timetable. The deadlines were created by them, but they have let this chamber down by not delivering on what they promised.”
      He warned that the bill was leaving the Commons in an “unsatisfactory state”.
      yet despite feeling this way, he voted it through. What a plonker!


      Did anyone hear the party Political broadcast on behalf of the pretend labour party tonight?Mr. Leopard-never-changes -his-spots was lying about how important equal pay was and how the Labour party was he online to have fought for this – I nearly choked. Against the background of SNP led GCC voting it through tonight it is breathtaking brass neckery …

    235. Meg merrilees says:

      Ian Brotherhood

      Count me as a YES for your poll. I don’t do twitter so I can’t vote.

    236. Sinky says:

      What a nerve Richard Leonard has to lead Labour’s PPB on Equal Pay for Women on the very day when, thanks to the SNP, Glasgow City Council stopped Labour’s discrimination against thousands of women employees.

      But then of course BBC / STV coverage refused to tell viewers that it was Labour who were wasting money taking this to the Courts and lumbered Glasgow CC with back pay claims potentially amounting to £500m.

      But Labour can rely on our fearless broadcasters to keep the public in the dark.

    237. Petra says:

      @ Artyhetty at 8:13pm …….. “Jackie Bird’s Slapdash twaddle.”

      Strange that there’s no sign of the 6:30 pm Reporting Scotland news on the IPlayer. Taking their time to edit the twaddle?

    238. Macart says:

      @ronnie anderson 8.36

      Pretty much.

    239. Lochside says:

      The English state have always put Scotland at the head of their attack agenda…not Brexit. Destroy Scotland’s political voice by ridicule, lies and now total media suppression. As manandboy says this was what the ‘snap G.E’ was about.

      But the SNP did not take heed of the flood of unified propaganda for ‘No Referendum’…they went for the ‘good managerial’ schtick. It failed miserably and we lost 1/2 million votes and twenty plus seats.

      Now we are facing political obliteration. The tory stooges have done as expected and kicked our political destiny into the lion’s den of political oblivion at the hands of drunks like Foulkes and imposters like Mone. All representative of the Motherfucker of all Parliaments.

      The time for tweeting and posturing with placards with ‘nul points’ (Pete Wishart) is over. Unified resistance by the SNP in concert with the YES movement, Wings, the National etc. must begin immediately. Organised tv licence ‘won’t pay’; concerted phone ins to Call Kaye; letter writing; and picketing of the BBC and press with placards proclaiming their lies. We must raise the consciousness of the uninformed. FFS if the young are being seduced by Corbyn and Leonard even in small numbers, it shows how desperate things are.

    240. meg merrilees says:

      So if there are 13 Scottish Tory MP’s which one is Judas?

      Doesn’t that depend on which one you count as Number one i.e. each and every one of them can be number one but equally, each and everyone of them can also be number13 i.e. they are all tractors..
      Shame on them.

    241. Meg merrilees says:


      my message about the PPB Labour broadcast got mangled by spells heck .. it should have read how Leonard said the Labour party was the only one to have fought for this managed to be printed as … how the Labour Party was he online… Sorry.

    242. Ian Brotherhood says:

      @Meg –


      The question I tweeted is exactly as that copied into the 7.13 post above.

      I didn’t underline, italicise or embolden the word ‘peaceful’ because ‘civil disobedience’ already incorporates it – the mere presence of the word should serve as an emphasis. I don’t understand how anyone could reasonably object to peaceful resistance when we’ve reached the stage where a so-called ‘national’ broadcaster won’t inform citizens about vital constitutional matters.

    243. Bob Mack says:

      The SNP may well have stood on a mandate which showed they could govern sensibly. However if after 10 years and counting they have not got that message across then I despair.

      The message from them should be our own project fear. Whilst the rest of the UK wrings it’s hands over Brexit, where are the SNP. They have an opportunity to galvanise anti Brexit eery throughout these lands that form the uK, but I have only really heard the Tories and Labour on the subject. Plenty of Westminster English mp’s commentate on Scottish matters.

      I may be wrong, but it appears the SNP strategy is to try and appeal to everybody at the expense of their first priority, Independence.

      I shall maintain my membership of the SNP ,but in reality I believe the time for softly softly is past. If this you gov pole is accurate, we have clearly let people slide away.

      You can only inspire people by being inspirational yourself

    244. Ian Foulds says:

      ‘Meg merrilees says:
      17 January, 2018 at 9:10 pm
      Ian Brotherhood

      Count me as a YES for your poll. I don’t do twitter so I can’t vote.’

      Ian, Count me in too, please, as I do not do Twitter.



    245. Bob Mack says:

      Poll—damn predictatext

    246. heedtracker says:

      But the SNP did not take heed of the flood of unified propaganda for ‘No Referendum’…they went for the ‘good managerial’ schtick. It failed miserably and we lost 1/2 million votes and twenty plus seats.

      Or it just reflected the actual Scottish electorate party vote layout, across 56 seats, with tory dingdongs on 13, within this yew kay or ending it.

      So its coming you zoomer.

      Calm down dear.

      Its not war.

      Its democracy.

      Less zoom zoom, more rationale.

    247. colin alexander says:

      Why shut Holyrood when they (UK Govt) can keep it as an impotent talking shop that keeps Scotland’s political class bought off by WM level salaries and pensions and almost guaranteed jobs for life via the party list system?

      Why bother shutting Holyrood down when it is stuffed with careerist MSPs like Kezia Dugdale, who are in it for the money? Then there are the others who keep Scottish independence supporters suppressed, so the independists are turning away from them.

      Why shut Holyrood when that would be like the British Empire sacking the Indian Maharajas, when they helped keep the Indian people suppressed, and kept them under WM’s yoke.

    248. Rock says:

      The most stupid people on earth are in Scotland.

      Why else would they have elected 13 Tory MPs?

      Why else would SNP support have fallen from 50% to 37%, with a loss of half a million voters and 23 MPs at the last election?

    249. Rock says:

      Rock (20th September 2014 – “Keep ‘em peeled”):

      “A very public and massive boycott of the BBC should now be the NUMBER ONE PRIORITY. They destroyed our hope for a fair society, we must destroy them in Scotland starting NOW.”

      With hindsight I can say that this is not going to happen because the most stupid people on earth are in Scotland.

      Scotland will never become independent as long as the BBC exists in Scotland.

    250. Thepnr says:

      @Bob Mack

      I don’t see much wrong in the SNP message, they fail to get it across as who in the media is willing to tell that message without first distorting it?

      I can find the message as I will look for but how many do that? Just a very small percentage of political independence supporting anoraks like myself.

      If you need any examples just look at the coverage of the ‘Scotland’s Place in Europe: People, Jobs and Investment’ released on Monday.

      At last, a very good attempt to explain the impact of Brexit in relation to the people of Scotland. Most headlines though told a different story of the like:

      “Theresa May has hit back at Nicola Sturgeon’s claims that Brexit will be disastrous for Scotland, insisting that the UK is four times more important than the EU to the Scottish economy.”

      “Nicola Sturgeon in immigration charm offensive to avert £12.7bn shock to Scottish economy”

      The SNP are fighting an uphill battle and as far as I can see are doing what they can. There is reason though to believe that more could be done when they are giving an opportunity to get their point across in a LIVE interview. I stress LIVE else anything positive is more than likely to end up on the cutting room floor.

      To be honest, a successful YES vote in a second referendum will be pretty much down to the grassroots at getting the message out. Especially with those closest to you who have yet to be convinced.

    251. Thepnr says:

      I see Batman & Robin the dynamic duo are back spreading their infinite wisdom right on cue LOL

    252. twathater says:

      email sent tonight to STV included the last part of Stu’s post as it sounded appropriate enquiries [at] stv [dot] tv

      Dear Sir/Madam ,

      I watched what was supposed to be your 6pm Scottish news tonight Wed 17/01/2018 and was astonished and disgusted that STV is following in the footsteps of the state propaganda channel BBC ( aka Pravda ) by omitting and ignoring the disgraceful act of 13 conservative MP;s , who chose to support and side with the UK government in their attempt to undermine and undemocratically destroy the powers of the elected devolved governments of Scotland and Wales .

      It is reprehensible that you as a broadcaster did not consider this constitutional information important enough to inform your viewers , the people of Scotland

      For a broadcaster to be so completely and unashamedly blanking such a huge story goes some way beyond basic incompetence or a lack of resources. It’s all but impossible to reasonably explain it as anything other than a deliberate act of protection for the Scottish Conservatives , covering up their meek compliance , as the foundation of Scotland’s democratic governance is attacked and its future left to the mercies of a bunch of unelected English lords.

      It is also becoming more apparent by the deliberate misinformation and exaggeration being expounded in relation to our SNHS and other public services that the tenets of journalism and investigative reporting have fallen prey to a corrupting and corrosive influence

      Viewers can, as ever, draw their own conclusions.

    253. colin alexander says:

      “The SNP stood on a manifesto that was relevant to the governance of Scotland, as the vote was to elect Members of the Scottish Parliament.”

      No. It was the 2017 UK General Election for WM MPs.

      There was no way the SNP would be governing. No way Scotland has EVER been strong at Westminster, so what was going through the SNP’s mind when they ran with: “Keep Scotland Strong at Westminster” and “Keep Scotland’s voice Strong at Westminster”? Slogans Labour or the Tories would be happy to use. No wonder the Tories got in with the SNP campaigning FOR Westminster rule.

      This from a pro-independence party?

      Indyref was to keep Scotland in the EU if the UK tries to drag Scotland out.
      That was the 2016 manifesto mandate.

      The SNP bottled it by going for Soft Brexit and the fact is :Scotland is going to be out of the EU because of that. So, now there’s no way Scotland can maintain EU membership.

      So, now there is no EU / Brexit game changer.

      The UK will still remain a safer option than indy for Scotland for those who voted NO because of the fear that not being part of a larger whole makes Scotland too vulnerable as a smaller country.

      All that’s left is hoping that the Tories and Labour continue to make an even bigger mess and can drive voters away from being pro-UK to independence, cos sure as hell, the SNP are doing nothing to attract them to the idea of an independent Scotland.

    254. Bob Mack says:

      @the PNR,

      I understand perfectly what you are saying, but I have for the past two years watched political shows where the SNP were present and one thing always stands out. They let the interviewer control all the narrative. They allow themselves to be badgered and interrupted.

      Now ,a classic example was when Nicola was on Marr on Sunday.

      Many on this site and others were delighted she would not Marr spoil her train of thought. Ask yourself why that made an impression ? The answer is because it was unusual and we all noticed.

      We have a positive message and vision, but we try to be all things to all men and that is not going to work.

      People join movements which inspire them with belief, even though the message may be dubious. If you want examples just think of Farage, Mussolini,etc.

    255. Petra says:

      Meg they’re a bunch of out and out liars … Unionist politicians, in this case Labour (plus the Unions) and their comrades in arms … the Media. I’m just nursing my wrath and biding my time, because their days are well and truly numbered and they better believe it.

      I’ve just been reading some of the more recent posts (SNP Baad) on here and would just say come on buck up folks. Yesindyref2 comes on with some stats and the next thing we know everyone is up in arms. Surely no one is surprised with this … the Tories? And the Media have been pumping out their propaganda for years now. Dipping into their cache of propaganda strategies to meet their convoluted, twisted agenda on a daily basis. No surprises there either, but they won’t get away with it. Do you think we’re the only people that are concerned and annoyed with their latest ‘move’? There will be talks amongst Constitutional lawyers (and others) going on behind the scenes right now. Just wait and see what happens next. And we will win the next referendum. Just a few short months to go now. Have faith.


      Oh and while I remember don’t forget to tune into at least once a day.

    256. Thepnr says:

      @Bob Mack

      Yes I watched the clip of the FM on the Marr show and was very pleased to see her not allowing Marr to interrupt while she answered the questions.

      I’m hopeful that this should set a standard for others to follow.

    257. heedtracker says:

      Interesting that Rock and colin alexander are hysterical SNP/Scottish people bad tonight,

      The National
      Verified account

      42m42 minutes ago
      Tomorrow’s front page … No ideas and no clue: Scottish Labour shown up at ‘stunt’ budget debate as Kelly can’t say what they’d do differently … as they end up voting with the Tories

      Even the London Times had JC bounce gone in their Scotland region.

      Yoon panic, Rock and Colin A:D

    258. colin alexander says:

      Rock asked: “Why else would SNP support have fallen from 50% to 37%, with a loss of half a million voters and 23 MPs at the last election?”

      Because the SNP gave no good reason to vote SNP.

      Unionist Tory and Labour supporters had good reasons to get out and vote with the strong message that a vote for them would be a kick in the teeth to independence and the SNP.

      In contrast, the SNP came out with tripe. Cos the SNP expected people to vote for them because, the SNP think they deserve those votes, cos they’re the Scottish Govt. Cos they’ve been in power for over a decade at Holyrood. Cos they are full of self-importance. Cos they are the Scottish political Establishment.

      And biggest laugh of all: cos they are the champions of independence.

      Except, they haven’t campaigned for independence since 2014, but EXPECTED and took it for granted that pro-independence supporters would keep voting for them anyway, cos they’re the SNP.

    259. TheWasp says:

      Colin the fud is on shift and playing the same old broken record…yaaaaawn

    260. colin alexander says:

      The National preaches to a small number of independists. It’s no gonnae change a thing.

      But if it makes some independists happy, then in my view it’s better than nothing. Which would be the situation without it.

      That’s the real starting point in any indyref campaign.

      How can you win a campaign that all the media ( except the National) opposes, when even the independists support those Unionist media by working with them?

      Nicola Sturgeon was good at insisting on finishing her answers. Good at insisting she’s not going to be interrupted.

      Shame so much of what she said was typical political waffle like any professional politician. Lots of words but very little in the way of information.

      For example, just the same, I’ve no decided yet response to the indyref question.

    261. heedtracker says:

      Except, they haven’t campaigned for independence since 2014, but EXPECTED and took it for granted that pro-independence supporters would keep voting for them anyway, cos they’re the SNP.

      SNP simply respected the will of Scotland Colin A. Can’t say fairer than that.

      SNP bad fraud you’re always pedaling, that as soon as 18 Sept 2014 passed, we should all have been campaigning in indyref2, is a predictably creepy one though.

      Scots would not have participated in or even tolerated indyref2 campaigning the day after indyref1. Yet here you are ragin away at the democratic NO win 2014 ref1.
      Is this really all unionists like you and Rock have Colin A?

      Yoons are a crazy breed.

      Come back sensibledave.

    262. Ian Brotherhood says:

      Apologies if already posted, but this is brilliant and hilarious, on SIU, from BellaC –

    263. Bob Mack says:

      @Colin Alexander,

      If you have heard any politician give out anything but political waffle you are in a minority of one. All politicians waffle,and do you know what? The way they waffle gathers support, not the message.

      Take any politician of your choosing past or present and tell me what they promised to do, and if they actually did it.

      It goes with the territory. I. E £350 million a week for the NHS. Did people believe that ? You betcha they did.

    264. colin alexander says:


      Don’t waste your insults on me. Why don’t you go and write your foul-mouthed abuse to Michelle Mone, Jack McConnell and George Foulkes and see how that goes, if your’re such a braveheart?

      They’ll be the ones deciding about Scotland.

      Thanks to the SNP’s pish about a Strong Voice For Scotland, we don’t even have a strong Scottish Parliament. Instead important issues will be decided by unelected peers.

    265. HandandShrimp says:


      Who else do you suggest we vote for?

      The SNP have a country to run as well as work towards the goal of independence. They are not a pressure group, they are a government. If it were not for the SNP we would never have had 2014, never had a Government in Holyrood that fights for Scottish interests and not be looking at the very real probability of another bite at the cherry in 2019.

      The fortunes of political parties rise and fall and voters are fickle. The turnout in 2015 was high, the SNP did spectacularly, almost unnaturally, well. I doubt 95% of the seats will ever be bettered. They did pretty damn well in 2016 too, perhaps too well because the system’s checks and balances didn’t like their improved constituency vote.

      No one really wanted the 2017 election (judging by her pathetic performance not even Theresa May), turnout was well down and Unionists got some sort tactical thing going for the first (and possibly the last) time.

      However, if, as expected, Brexit is a mixture of failed deals and betrayal by Westminster on devolution we will have a shot at this before the next election. Party politics will not therefore be an issue. Be thankful that it is the SNP in power because no one else will give us that chance.

    266. geeo says:

      Yesindyref2 @4.35pm

      Absolutely spot on.

      When we had a mandate to hold a referendum in 2014, our starting point was 29% Yes.

      The level of indy support on any given OPINION poll is NOT where mandates are won, that is ELECTIONS !

      I am supremely confident of winning independence if we start at anything over 40% when the date is announced.

      Wetting our knickers because of a YouGov poll is fucking tragic ffs.

    267. geeo says:

      Coco still desperate as ever i see.

      Hiya coco…hiya pal…har har har…!!

    268. Hamish100 says:

      c’mon where’s the excitement folks. BBC Scotchland female on newsdrive so happy to talk about the return of the Bayeux tapestry to the uk again!! She couldn’t use the word England so it was uk or Britain or back home.
      Please BBC I don’t have a problem of using the term England if it applies to England.
      I do have a problem of bbc scotchland ignoring the fact that in good old 1066 there was no UK nor British and that Scotland did exist in its own right. Quite deliberate on the part of the BBC.

    269. heedtracker says:

      They’ll be the ones deciding about Scotland.

      Indeed Colin A. This is what Scotland voted NO for, Westminster, the Lords, our glorious beeb gimp network, keeping our EU passports, Trident nuke bomb dumps, Clyde side navy ship building cons, Strong and Stable Teresa, the incredible and amazing disappearing Colonel Ruth, strenght, power, punching things above our weight and so on. We voted to stay in the UK.

      So do you see now why you’re coming across as either a very desperate yoon or a total nutcase, Colin A.

      We Scots voted FOR everything we get, in 2014. And its not the fault of the SNP, no matter how bat shit crazy yoons like you try to smear/blame them.

    270. colin alexander says:

      Bob Mack said: “If you have heard any politician give out anything but political waffle you are in a minority of one”.

      Fair point.

      However, we were told the SNP were going to change things. They were going to be more open. They would no be like Scottish Labour.

      They have become full of the same professional spin doctors as Tony Blair’s New Labour and are losing touch with the ordinary people.

      The FM’s performance was a polished political performance, but it’s the same type of thing we get from any of them. The politicians that alienate the ordinary people. That scunner people about politics and politicians.

      They don’t give proper answers. They talk a lot and won’t answer the questions asked.

      How is that supposed to convince people an indy Scotland government would be ANY different from what we have now?

      It just encourages the attitude of: Ach! What’s the point? They’re aw the same.

      But, I accept, with such a biased media, anything of any usefulness that could be said, would be then twisted and misrepresented. So, all that’s left is waffle.

    271. Petra says:

      @ twathater at 10:33pm …. “STV email.”

      Brilliant TH. An excellent role model for Bill and Ben, who’ve just recently joined the company.

      Now let’s ALL get complaining to them, BBC, STV etc, on a daily basis in relation to the lies that they tell and the information that they suppress.


      I’ve just been watching Frank Macaveety lying through his teeth again. Where do these people get the brass neck from? He was on the Council when I was involved in Equal Pay cases, one in particular that went all the way to the House of Lords, and I know that as some Councils across Scotland wanted to settle out of Court it was GCC that was calling the shots and said no way. What they don’t tell you either is that in dragging these cases on for years, dragging them through the Courts £millions of additional public money gets spent on paying extortionate legal costs. In the case I’m referring to they employed a QC plus a number of lawyers on a daily basis from day one at Glasgow Tribunal. The Tribunal board couldn’t belief their eyes, as this was totally unheard of. The case was also the longest running Employment Law case in British history up until that time. May still be the case, so that’ll give you some idea of the amount of money that was squandered. Add to that having to pay wages for (numerous) staff to cover for witnesses when they were attending Court. If the general public had any idea of what they, Labour politicians (including Donald Dewar), and Councillors, had / have been getting up to they’d be strung up, imo.

    272. Thepnr says:

      @Ian Brotherhood

      Scotland in Union are the creation of the landed gentry and entitled classes not just in Scotland but across the whole UK.

      Those running it on their behalf such as former Labour MP Pamela Nash and MSP Graeme Pearson on £50,000/year for a part time post working 1.5 days a week.

      Happy to eat the crumbs from their masters table. Hmmm.

    273. Bob Mack says:


      Over the past ten years the SNP have most definitely changed things. Compare everything done to protect citizens rights and finances in Scotland as opposed to other parts of the UK. Are you taking these things for granted now.?

      Independence is NOT the property of the SNP. It is not theirs to give. It is the prerogative of any Scot to choose. All the SNP do is facilitate that ability to make the choice ,as they did in 2014.

      The only dissapointment I really feel is that they do not feel it is time to offer that just now for whatever reason.

    274. Robert J. Sutherland says:

      colin alexander @ 23:29:

      It just encourages the attitude of: Ach! What’s the point? They’re aw the same.

      Which is precisely the game you’re about, CoCo.

      After a while, you get a feeling where most regular posters are coming from. But in your case, there isn’t a position you haven’t at some time or other canvassed, from slow-and-steady super-dooper Labourite Unionist “federalism” to impatient flat out UDI. From “why isn’t the SG doing more about staying in the EU?” to “dreaded EU federal superstate”.

      All around the compass for a direction. The only constant in it all is “hate the SNP” without ever actually proposing a positive alternative that you are actually for.

      Just a pathetic little nihilist shit-stirrer with nothing significant to say about anything.

    275. Dave McEwan Hill says:

      Might it just be a good idea if folk just ignored Colin Alexander? That’ll do for a while then he’ll pop up again with a different name and we can ignore that as well.

      A serious point. I have never understood how the inhabitants of Edinburgh didn’t realise how it would hugely benefit them and Edinburgh to be the capital of an independent Scotland. I don’t think such a stupid community should be capital of Scotland and I think the title should be passed to Glasgow. The Kelvingrove Art Gallery would make a magnificent parliament building and George Square would of course become John Maclean Square

    276. shug says:

      The indyref2 movement really needs to start identifying no voters and making sure they receive the picture of how Westminster holds them in complete contempt and the comparison between Norway’s Sovereign wealth fund and the UK, this shows the extent of their mismanagement of the country.

      The BBC and MSM will not allow this message out there so that is the one we have to deliver

    277. CameronB Brodie says:

      I’m getting fair sick fed up with this miasma of TINA being spread by the media.

      Get yourself stuck into this lot folks and you’ll be immune to yoons howling at the moon, with a bit of practice. 😉

      4 Ways to Detox from Negative Media

      What we do know is that our brains are naturally built to weigh and respond to negative information much more so than positive information. This concept has been termed the negativity bias and is wide-ranging, from our decision-making to our perception of ourselves and others. As one group of researchers put it, “We have found bad to be stronger than good in a disappointingly relentless pattern… this difference may be one of the most basic and far-reaching psychological principles.” (Baumeister et al. 2001)

      Special Thematic Section on “Decolonizing Psychological Science”

      Beyond Adaptation: Decolonizing Approaches to Coping With Oppression


      How should one respond to racial oppression? Conventional prescriptions of mainstream social psychological science emphasize the idea of coping with oppression—whether via emotional management strategies that emphasize denial or disengagement; problem-focused strategies that emphasize compensation, self-efficacy, or skills training; or collective strategies that emphasize emotional support—in ways that promote adaptation to, rather than transformation of, oppressive social structures. Following a brief review of the literature on coping with racism and oppression, we present an alternative model rooted in perspectives of liberation psychology (Martín-Baró, 1994). This decolonial approach emphasizes critical consciousness (rather than cultivated ignorance) of racial oppression, a focus on de-ideologization (rather than legitimation) of status quo realities, and illumination of models of identification conducive to collective action. Whereas the standard approach to coping with oppression may ultimately both reinforce and reproduce systems of domination, we propose a decolonial approach to racism perception as a more effective strategy for enduring prosperity and well-being….

      Bridging the Personal and the Political: Practices for a Liberation Psychology

      In the Irish context, legacies of colonialism, the Northern Ireland conflict situation, and the strength of community and women’s liberation movements all provide rich resources for understanding the processes involved in both oppression and liberation. This paper draws on the theoretical and research literature and on Irish experiences to develop an understanding of some of the processes and practices that aid in liberation. The research is grounded in diverse writings on oppression and liberation, which include writings on colonialism (E. Duran & B. Duran, 1995; F. Fanon, 1967; V. Kenny, 1985, L. Maracle, 1996), feminist psychology (J. B. Miller, 1986; S. Wilkinson, 1996), liberation psychology (H. A. Bulhan, 1985; L. Comas-D ??az, M. B. Lykes, & R. D. Alarcon, 1998; I. Mart?n-Baro, 1994; Starhawk, 1987), and psychological aspects of racism (b. hooks, 1993; A. Mama, 1995; R. J. Watts, D. M. Griffith, & J. Abdul-Adil, 1999), homophobia (A. R. D’Augelli & C. J. Patterson, 1995), poverty (K. O’Neill, 1992), and other dimensions of oppression.

    278. Robert J. Sutherland says:

      Thepnr @ 23:40,

      That’s the worst aspect of it for me. Not the Tory landed gentry selfishly defending their narrow interests, but the Labour Party apparatchiks whom they’re buying.

      You know, all those “socialists” =cough= that young people are supposedly being drawn to as the Great New Hope, unashamedly holding out their hands to the Tory lairds while simultaneously tugging their forelocks.

      That shower of hypocritical do-nothings were bad enough when they were in charge, now in their desperation they are anybody’s. Well, anybody’s except ours.

      Wake up, young folk, to what we have learnt from the bitter experience of all those wasted decades. NorthBritLab are a bunch of shameless hypocritical self-serving FAKES.

    279. heedtracker says:

      The indyref2 movement really needs to start identifying no voters and making sure they receive the picture of how Westminster holds them in complete contempt and the comparison between Norway’s Sovereign wealth fund and the UK, this shows the extent of their mismanagement of the country.

      They’re all YES2 reforming again right the now. Get involved, check locally. You’ll be surprised.

    280. Molly says:

      Not sure how you do it but somehow ordinary people in Scotland and Wales have to start working together to stand up for our parliaments as our elected reps at Westminster are always going to be out numbered.

      A massive paper petition ( the Yes groups) a demo, an online Twitter storm to get it trending , I don’t know but we need to get the message out as our media certainly won’t do it.

    281. K1 says:

      They’re the party of Scotland, Scottish National Party. Not the Scottish Nationalist Party. Keep that real clear folks. We are not ‘nationalist’ in the way we are described and painted as, by the msm. Or anyone else for that matter.

      Our aims are for self determination and the power to run our own economy/country we live in as we see fit. Our aims having nothing to do with ‘exceptionalism’ or ‘true Scottishness’ etc etc. Which is the traditional understanding of the term ‘nationalists’ and if indeed we are then we are no different from that other great nationalist country who literally make their children sing to a flag from birth…they call it patriotism, but ah don’t see anyone in the msm or unionists gunning for the USA just cause they run their own affairs and wave their flags at every opportunity…eh?

      Fucking hypocrite Britnationalists are the problem not Scotland seeking self determination. They are ‘exceptionalists’ they do believe in all things ‘Blighty’, they live in the past and ridicule every other nation on the planet with some form or racist slur…never mistake Scotland’s seeking of independence as anything close to that rabid outlook.

      We will bide our time on this matter and see how far the Westminster establishment will go and then we shall have our referendum.

      Shit stirring little wanks can fuck right off.

      We’re doing this peacefully and we are respecting half the population in Scotland who voted No and we will wait till a sufficient number of them get on board and we will do this the right way without need for deliberate acts of stupidity which would only play into our enemies hands.

      Those slagging off the SNP, repeatedly, can fuck off wi yer udi and yer polemical pish. We live in the real world…and we’ll find a way through all of this by all means possible and we will never, ever resort to strong-arm tactics or violence as a means of achieving our aims. Ever.

      Nor will we put the people living and working in Scotland at risk of a backlash because of a handful of nutfuckjobs who think they are more informed and knowledgeable than the SNP and the rest of us. Y’know the ones? Who have some crystal ball into the future, and can determine right now that there is no other way ‘but’ to follow ‘their’ lead?

      Aye right. You’re seen for what you’re attempting to do on these threads and yer ontae plums, cause no one is interested in yer jumped up pish. Now away and navel gaze wi yer ‘powerful in yer ain heid’ fantasy crap somewhere else and gies aw peace.

    282. auld highlander says:

      Negative subliminal messages work and they are bombarding the viewers and listeners at every opportunity.

    283. Petra says:

      @ Bob at 11:47pm …….”The only disappointment I really feel is that they do not feel it is time to offer that now for whatever reason.”

      Well Bob I don’t think that you should feel disappointed at all. The only reason another Indyref is on the cards is due to the material change, outlined in the SNP manifesto, that is Brexit with the Scots potentially getting dragged out of the EU against majority wishes.

      Taking Brexit as the baseline for all future acts, Nicola Sturgeon couldn’t set a date for a Ref right now, or previously, as we still have absolutely no idea what is happening, in no small part due to the fact that the Tories themselves don’t seem to have a clue.

      As an (extreme) example what if she called for Indyref2 and started spouting, more so than she’s done already, the implications for Scotland being dragged out of the EU and then T May decided to take Farages / Libdems advice and hold another EU ref? She’d look like a right mug and it would no doubt jigger up our chances of winning to a great extent. And as a less extreme example what if she started focusing on a WTO scenario and then Westminster opted for a Canadian type of deal? She’d be accused of scaremongering, worst still lying etc.

      It’s all about her having some concrete (Brexit) information at her disposal before she makes a move and knowing when to show her hand in relation to an Independent Scotland’s economy, currency, banks, military and so on.

      Just my opinion Bob, but I hope it helps to alleviate your concerns to some extent.

    284. Thepnr says:

      @Robert J. Sutherland

      You certainly do “get a feeling where most regular posters are coming from” if you read the btl comments often enough.

      I can only assume that those that persist even after they know they are being ignored or ridiculed do so for only one of two reasons.

      Either they are being paid to do so and that is their job or they are so insecure, lonely and living in their own little fantasy world that it just all breaks out and they have to say something. Anything in order to get attention.

      If they’re not being paid then they’re very lonely people indeed.

    285. Dr Jim says:

      We’ve got one Twit telling us we’re the most stupid people on earth yet he comes on here wanting to talk to us, so who’s the stupid one

      Then there’s the other Twit who’s also cleverer than the rest of us but flounces off because he’s answered back for his arrogance then get’s his nerve back the next day so he’s back telling us not to vote SNP again

      The Two Top Twits sitting in their Paw Patrol jammies waiting for their cares to bring them tea and toast have nothing better to do than disrupt, and the only thing that brings them happy clappy glee in their rotten we lives is when folk get annoyed by them and answer their crap back

      So are we all stupid and less clever than them?

    286. alwi says:

      I’m sorely tempted to use the ‘q’ word. Disgraceful.

    287. ScotsCanuck says:

      …. Dear God !! .. when will the “frightened” in Scotland wake up and ” smell the coffee (or shite as the case maybe)” … the Indepenista’s will always vote YES and the Yoon’s NAW … but the 20% “unsure” CAN be won over to AYE …. this must be ‘front & center’ to them … they are the difference !!

    288. yesindyref2 says:

      @colin alexander:

      (alleging SNP slogans for GE 2017 were) “Keep Scotland Strong at Westminster” and “Keep Scotland’s voice Strong at Westminster”?

      Those weren’t their slogans you dirty little lying used arsewipe unionist troll. This was their slogan:

      Stronger for Scotland

    289. Thepnr says:


      Yes precisely, can’t see that name appearing much more on Wings. No doubt he will rise like a Phoenix from the ashes.

      They’ll still be wasting their time on Wings with their bullshit.

    290. yesindyref2 says:

      It’s a constant drip drip drip of twisted postings, insinuations, misinformation and outright lies, all of them aiming at genuine posters and lurkers who might have doubts about each point they aim at, while trying to get regular posters at each other’s throats and stir up discord and division – and make people suspicious of genuine posters who disagree on sone points. This is not a full list:

      1. Discredit the SNP
      2. Discredit The National
      3. Stir up resentment at an exaggerated number of English “settlers”
      4. Stir up resentment about the pensioners
      5. Insist a referendum is not coming so go for UDI
      6. Try to make people violent
      7. Constant attacks on regular posters who they see as a threat
      8. Try to make a regular poster isolated and unprotected
      9. Attack a poster they see as isolated and unprotected and
      10. Get posters and lurkers so fed up with their trolling they give up Wings, articles, posting, and reading postings.

      At times they take a reasonable point a poster makes and agree with it but exaggerate it and twist it. This attempts to discredit that poster and at the same time turn other posters against that poster.

      At times they also try to appear reasonable to draw in suckers, they often do this with a posting making two points, one apparently sensible, the other outrageous, to troll the reply from an unwitting victim: “I actually agree with you Troll A” or “good point Troll B”. What that does is give the Troll credibility in the eyes of the unwary.

      But the victim can happily ignore the Troll, and make the actual point for themselves.

    291. Ghillie says:

      yesindyref2 @ 3.24 am

      Excellent analysis of the workings of a troll.

      Worth repeating every so often.

      You do all know I hope, that even though some of us do not join in tackling their nonsense, we do see what is going on and have your back =)

      I think new readers here will see through their poison quite quickly too.

    292. Ken500 says:

      Since Nay became PM growth in Scotland fell to 0.3 and she is crowing about it. UK growth is only 1.7 compared to EU 3.0. Growth in the rest of the UK is only 1.4. May thinks that is great. Appalling imbecile.

      Scotland has lost £4Billion +++ since 2010. Tory too high taxes on the Oil &Gas sector when the price had fallen. 40% since Jan 2016. Total Westminster ignorant incompetence. Losing 120,000 jobs in Scotland. The Tories have cut the block grant 10% a year since 2010. Now cut £3Billion. Scotland has pay loan repayments on money not borrowed or spent in Scotland. Average of £4Billion a year. Hinkley Point and HS2 etc. A total waste of publicin money. It will make train journeys throughout Britain take longer. £1Billion on Trident. Scotland can’t borrow to grow the economy. Tax evasion £3Billion.

      Total £20Billion a year Mismanaged or misappropriated from Scotland. Resulting in 0.3. Growth. Appalling behaviour by imbecile May and her cronies. Just wicked. Thank goodness for minimum pricing coming in. After 5 years of Westminster intransigence. They are total pycho bastards. May crowing about ruining the Scottish economy. Brexit will be even more damaging, The Tories should hang their heads in shame. They are a total embarrassment. Scotland raises £54Billion in tax revenues. The rest of the UK raises £46Billion pro rata. Borrows more (£10Billion pro rata more). Yet Scotland ends off poorer. The Westminster crooks taking £Billions from Scotland. It can’t be long before they are gone. Acting illegally. To destroy the Scottish economy as they have been doing since 1928 and before,

      The IndyRef can’t come soon enough to be rid of the Westminster incompetent, ignorant imbeciles and their cronies, Ruining the UK economy while the EU steams ahead. Illegal wars, financial fraud and tax evasion. Westminster criminals have cause the worse migration crisis in Europe since 11WW. Costing £Trns. Trying to ruin the European/world economy. The Westminster ignorant incompetents. Sanctions, killing and maiming people. Wasting £Billions. Sychophant bastards.

    293. Smallaxe says:

      LINKS! lovely links you lucky people.

      Ambition on human rights;


      No recourse to public funds: How the UK’s hostile environment policy is driving people into destitution;

      Does Scotland really want to stay in the single market without a say in the rules?;

    294. Smallaxe says:


      Capita shares drop as Prudential terminates contract for UK life and pensions administration;


      The PFI bosses fleeced us all. Now watch them walk away;

      Former Tory chancellor George Osborne raking in cash from company that shorted Carillion collapse;

    295. Smallaxe says:


      Labour No Confidence Stunt Backfires as Party Admit Lack of Tax Plans;

      RBS memo urging staff to ‘let customers hang themselves’ published;

      Jeremy Corbyn hit by fresh Brexit rebellion as Labour MPs defy whip on single market;

      So tonight at Westminster Tories are using an English majority 2steamroller the Brexit Bill thru, ride roughshod over Devolution& most Scottish MPs 2drag Scotland out the EU against its will but I’ve got my history head on so here’s a random look at the other end of this ‘Union’ >;

      That’s all folks; Have a great day, Wingers!

    296. mr thms says:

      Can we hold a referendum on this?

      “Mr Kelly said he was pleased his bill had the backing of the committee, saying this had happened due to “the weight of evidence against the Football Act”.”

      We can then weigh the votes.

    297. skintybroko says:

      O/T but pertinent to the bollocks reporting – Radio Shortbread reporting on the Justice Committee saying the OBFA unfairly targeting football fans – WTF it is the Offensive Behavior at FOOTBALL Act – can these people get any more dense?

      Enjoying the links Smallaxe, have you taken on the mantle from Nana?

    298. Juan P says:


      I’m not sure they will.

      Brexit will be a disaster for Scotland but compliant media will ensure that the impact on public services, stagnant wages, fall in living standards etc will be falsely attributed to the governance of the SNP.

      Scot Gov will do their best to mitigate but ironically their savvy and competence will soften the negative consequence of Brexit on the people of Scotland and slow movement of folk persuaded to vote for independence.

      I think we’re in for a very rough time over the next year and so need to galvanise support for Scot Gov as the only ones standing up for Scotland’s best interests.

    299. Smallaxe says:


      Just temporarily as Nana is receiving some treatment from our Superb Scottish Health Service. No doubt Nana will be back sooner than is recommended. She’s an awfy wummin’ fir no dain’ whit she’s telt. Have a peaceful and profitable day, my friend.

    300. melvin penman says:

      I have never used these words before, but if it sounds like a ("Tractor" - Ed), acts like a ("Tractor" - Ed) then it must be a ("Tractor" - Ed). I know these words are offensive, but what else can you call this…..

    301. Smallaxe says:

      melvin penman,
      A Trait, Or maybe rogue, would do!

    302. Baldeagle58 says:

      Hi Smallaxe.

      Thanks again for the LINKS.
      Is this going to be on a regular basis?

    303. Smallaxe says:


      Links are usually posted on a regular basis by Nana, I take over when Nana is on holiday or otherwise indisposed.

      We like people to use these links to educate some NO voters.
      One Teaches another Learns!

      Have a great day, my friend.

    304. Smallaxe says:


      That was well worth a read. Clever wee dug that, intit!

    305. Macart says:


      He does have a way with words. 🙂

    306. Highland Wifie says:

      Thanks CameronB for those links on coping with negative media and liberation psychology.
      Very timely after my depressed rant yesterday!
      Feeling more positive today so will use info and advice in those links to get back to the fight.

    307. I keep hearing these Labour numpties demanding that the Scottish Government ends austerity and stops passing on Tory cuts.

      As we know the level of the Scottish Government’s budget is decided by Westminster, so when will we hear those Labour numpties explain how they would end Tory austerity and cuts.

    308. Smallaxe says:

      Late Links!

      Shell’s Penguin to unlock 80 million barrels of oil and create hundreds of jobs

      Just got out of a meeting with Guy Verhofstadt and other UK MEPs. We are told to expect a deal by October. Which means it’s possible to have a referendum on it by Xmas 2018

    309. Smallaxe says:

      Even Later Links!

      Theresa May branded a ‘total hypocrite’ for trousering £50,000 from firm that bet on Carillion’s failure;


    310. colin alexander says:


      Google the SNP’s Twitter, like I just did, and you will read:

      “Keep Scotland strong at Westminster. #VoteSNP on 8 June. #GE17”

      That is an EXACT QUOTE from the SNP.

      I hope you will man up and acknowledge your error in accusing me of making that up.

    311. Dorothy Devine says:

      Macart , just read your comment on – shitting hedgehogs for the rest of their natural lives is too kind , I think I would employ the artistry of ancient torturers , iron maidens , thumbscrews as well as hedgehogs!

    312. galamcennalath says:

      yesindyref2 says
      at 3.24 am


      A good overview of the black art of trolling.

      Traditionally an online troll acted for amusement and perverted pleasure. Winding people up, causing disruption, getting people to argue with each other, all for ‘fun’.

      I mention this traditional style of trolling because I do wonder if there is an element of non politically motivated disruption on WoS.

      HOWEVER, most will be politically motivated and quite possibly coordinated, organised, and planned.

      Some is obvious, some, as yesindyref2 says, can be quite subtle. Fitting in, agreeing with the consensus, then just slipping in an opinion designed to cause turmoil.

      I’m going to stick my neck out and suggest it is having modest success. There are a lot of people on here I trust, so when they make a slightly ‘wayward’ comment, it’s innocent. Heat of the moment, and we all should hold different views and opinions anyway. But a new poster I haven’t noticed before, I treat with suspicion. That is harming the atmosphere.

      Part of the problem is we all sometimes express opposite opinions and that is good healthy debate, however, it can’t be hard to tell with newbies whether it’s genuine opinion or seeds for disruption.

    313. HandandShrimp says:


      You still haven’t answered my question. Who should we vote for?

    314. Macart says:

      @Dorothy Devine

      There’s a limit even to my tolerance of fuckwittery.

    315. galamcennalath says:

      @Dorothy Devine

      There are a great many politicians at every level who are simply not up to the job. Nornally that wouldn’t happen in a democracy because an effective media would expose their shortcomings to the electorate. The BIG problem we have in Scotland is a media which protects naff politicians in useless parties with no real policies, simply because they are pro Union.

    316. colin alexander says:

      For those who accuse me of supporting federalism, show me one quote where I say I want a federal UK. You can’t, cos I didn’t say it.
      It’s simply untrue.

      I want independence for Scotland.

      For those who say I have made seemingly conflicting statements about the EU, that’s true. That is because it’s a fluid situation and I have conflicting feelings about the EU.

      I voted to Remain. The SNP sought and got a mandate to keep Scotland in the EU. That’s the SNP’s mandate, so they should have fought harder for it.

      Catalonia and EU statements supporting Spain and opposing democratic votes for independence have led me to change my views about the EU. Now, personally, I no longer support the EU. If the EU maintains it’s current silence on Scottish indy and anti-indy rhetoric I would not vote for Scottish membership of the EU. However, that’s my personal view.

      The SNP’s mandate for indyref was to keep Scotland in the EU. The SNP had no electoral mandate to then change that to keep the UK in the Single Market. Thus keeping Scotland in the Single Market as part of the UK.

      Instead of opposing Brexit, which is the SNP’s mandate, the SNP then wanted a role in achieving Brexit, with a seat at Brexit talks.

      So, aye it’s easy to criticise, so people ask: so what’s your answer?

      The SNP simply refuse ANY cooperation with Brexit, as their mandate was keep Scotland in the EU.

      Let the UK Govt get on with screwing up Scotland. Let the UK Govt get on with betraying the devolution settlement which said what is devolved is devolved, so EU powers that were devolved should remain devolved. Thus, devolved EU powers should return to the devolved parliament.

      If the UK Govt betray that settlement, my view is that the SNP should call a new election, to give the people to vote on this new constitutional arrangement.

      If I were the SNP, I’d say: the changes to Scotland’s constitutional settlement are unacceptable. Westminster has betrayed the devolution settlement of 2014.

      Those changes aren’t just political, they will cause economic damage to Scotland.

      Thus, the people must decide whether to accept this or reject it. The only way to reject it is by voting for independence.

      Thus, the SNP will not stand for administering devolution govt on behalf of WM.

      The SNP is asking the people for a democratic mandate to negotiate the dissolution of the Union.

      Thus, the SNP if they are elected with a majority of seats – and over 50% of the votes cast – will accept this as a clear democratic mandate that the sovereign people of Scotland have decided that Scotland should become an independent country.

      If the SNP win most seats but, do not win a majority of votes, the SNP will sit as opposition MSPs. They will no longer administer devolution as the Scottish Govt.

      The SNP will continue to campaign for independence only, as devolution is no longer acceptable.

    317. Macart says:

      @galamcennalath 10.26

      And that’s our Albatross. They’re the only thing keeping those useless twats in office and they’re the glue that binds the political union together. Without their cheerleaders (invested meeja barons), the UKs current societal and political make up would long since have bit the dust.

      Unfiltered political bullshit is easy to spot for pretty much anyone. Most anoraks who pay attention to PMQs, FMQs, inquiries, committees soon sort the good from the bad. But professionally repackaged, rebranded horse shit sold to the public masses in bite size chunks? That’s the real enemy. That’s what keeps the bad guys in the lifestyle to which they’ve become accustomed. Together the political establishment and the media form a formidable hurdle for a true rethink on our democracy and our political practices. Those parasites like it just peachy the way it is. They have and will continue to mushroom farm the general public without fear of reproach or care on the cost to lives and public well being.

      Its who and what they are.

    318. mike cassidy says:

      So the Justice Committee thinks the OBFA unfairly targets football fans.

      Next thing you know they will be saying the foxhunting ban unfairly targets foxhunters.

      Isn’t there some sort of ‘braincell activity’ test that could be applied to those standing for election?

    319. Lochside says:

      Heedtracker…I see your ‘hive’ is having a go at ‘trolls.’ The irony is that you are the biggest one on here. for some time now,every time I contribute, you pop up…almost immediately… with an insult and a nmisrepresentation of what I say. Nothing positive, always nasty wee asides and playground insults.

      But it’s not just me that you snipe at with your customary drivel.

      You and a couple of others use offensive and disgusting language at people, who may well be politically at odds with most of us… but it deliberately lowers the tone and level of debate…I don’t include you as ‘us’ because I think you are here to disrupt…which you do constantly…on some threads you are on at all different times….significantly…and regularly involve yourself in tag team troll style slagging.

      If you are a real person, rather than part of a 77 Brig. shift team, then I advise you to scroll past my contributions, as I do with others that I don’t respect..and leave off with the personal insults. And by the way, you are supposed to use quotation marks (‘..’) when you are quoting someone else…otherwise it looks like you are just stealing their comments. You wouldn’t want to be considered a thief as well as a stinking troll …would you?

      I won’t be addressing you again.

    320. yesindyref2 says:


      That’s one tweet in a campaign, not an official slogan, this is what you said earlier: “The SNP stood for keeping Scotland strong at Westminster.

      Here’s another tweet from the SNP twitter:

      If you believe in a better future for Scotland, help us work for it. Join the SNP today

      according to your twisted logic, that’s what they stand for now.

    321. Thepnr says:

      Holyrood had a vote on 20th March 2017 on a motion regarding “Scotlands Choice” which was of course about a second Independence referendum.

      I thought it worth reminding people and especially the press what that motion said particularly with regard to a date for Indyref2.

      Scotland’s Choice
      That the Parliament acknowledges the sovereign right of the Scottish people to determine the form of government best suited to their needs and therefore mandates the Scottish Government to take forward discussions with the UK Government on the details of an order under section 30 of the Scotland Act 1998 to ensure that the Scottish Parliament can legislate for a referendum to be held that will give the people of Scotland a choice over the future direction and governance of their country at a time, and with a question and franchise, determined by the Scottish Parliament, which would most appropriately be between the autumn of 2018, when there is clarity over the outcome of the Brexit negotiations, and around the point at which the UK leaves the EU in spring 2019.

    322. Robert J. Sutherland says:

      Smallaxe @ 07:40,

      Much obliged once again for all those lovely links. Hope that nana is progressing well.

      I especially liked the LSE article by Kirsty Hughes, who – in stark contrast to the predictable and ubiquitous media suspects – offers a fair and measured appreciation of the SG’s latest analysis of the Brexit options, and notes a small but quite significant change of tack, but equally doesn’t fail to spot the obvious weaknesses in the SG’s current approach. Which is of course a work in progress still.

    323. yesindyref2 says:

      She’s had at least a couple of articles in The National which is brilliant.

    324. colin alexander says:


      Apologies, I wasn’t ignoring you.

      I suggested the SNP abandon pro-devolution and instead go all out for independence, especially if the devolution settlement is betrayed, as currently seems likely.

      In those circumstances I would have no hesitation in suggesting people vote SNP. I may even rejoin the party, if they adopted those policies, so I could actively campaign for them.

      Of course, that isn’t the case yet and there are no elections now. There are no policies to vote for. Thus, at this stage I cannot advise people who to vote for.

      I was critical of the SNP before the GE and warned them they need to do more.

      However, I said people should still vote SNP as a way of blocking Unionists from being elected. (It’s a shame disgruntled SNP voters didn’t take my advice).

      I also said I would vote for my local SNP candidate ( and I did), as I know from experience that Carol Monaghan was a good SNP MP who personally intervened and helped solve a problem for some of her constituents that was a source of great worry for them.

      (It wasn’t me, so I can’t discuss their case without permission).

    325. Robert J. Sutherland says:

      Thepnr @ 11:19,

      A worthwhile reminder. The timing has been the timing all along. Even if some people seem to have forgotten it (or maybe for their own reasons wish for something else).

      And despite all the UKGov-induced muddle and confusion, that still looks like the Brexit timing from the EU side, who (like the SG) do have their act together.

      2018 is the year of the Big Splat, when all those fantasies finally meet reality. Like flying bugs meet a windscreen.

    326. Smallaxe says:

      Robert J. Sutherland,

      Thank you, Robert, It’s heartening to see that Wingers like yourself are reading and hopefully sharing the links.

      I will, of course, pass your kind regards on to Nana, my friend.

    327. geeo says:

      Stop it coco…”i used to vote SNP/was a SNP member”…oh dear me!!!

      No, you didn’t, you fucking bawbag.

      I hate the SNP and actively post against them and Independence”

      There ye go coco..your ACTUAL reality.

      Newsflash son.

      There will be no more elections before indyref2, so you either vote Yes to an indy Scotland or you can fuck right off ya unionist diddy.

    328. geeo says:

      Hey lochside, maybe heedtracker attacks you because you post a load of utter shite ?

      Ever considered you are slavering pish ?

    329. Jack Murphy says:

      Petra closed post at 7:25pm last night:

      “……If anyone can get their hands on the BBC 6:30 news footage, get it on here as you won’t believe your ears.”

      I went to the State Broadcaster’s iPlayer and before I could proceed further I was told to Register or Sign in !

      Give them info about me? Take a hike BBC—-you burnt your Boat and Trust years ago.

    330. gus1940 says:

      Further evidence today that Toodloo Taylor’s Trump hairdo is coming along nicely.

    331. Proud Cybernat says:

      Don’t miss the boat, Scotland…

    332. gus1940 says:

      While the colonialist parties led by Lt.Col Ruth McMad and their media fan club continue with their futile attempts to destroy The Justice Secretary is it not odd that none of them seem to have made any attempt to elicit a statement from the other participant in the ‘notorious’ meeting – namely Flanagan the then Head of The SPA?

    333. Thepnr says:

      @Robert J. Sutherland

      It’s possible that Westminster know that there is very likely to be a vote in a second Independence referendum between Autumn 2018 and Spring 2019.

      That would be the reason for the hiking up of the propaganda on state controlled media. They won’t give up without a fight, we can all be certain of that.

      I’m not for giving up either so it’s a battle of wills.

    334. heedtracker says:

      Keep telling you lochside, if you’re going to comment online anywhere, you’re going to get into disagreements. But dude, calling me a deltante prick, which is fine, and then spouting all that nonsense above is pushing your luck too far.

      …I don’t include you as ‘us’ because I think you are here to disrupt…which you do constantly…on some threads you are on at all different times….significantly…and regularly involve yourself in tag team troll style slagging.

      Biggest reason you and idiots like Rock or Colin A stick out btl WoS lochside? you dingdongs spend all your broadband laying in to the SNP btl WoS and none of you ever have a bad about word to say about the unionists in Scotland, or England, ever.

      Its not like yoon culture needs you lot to monster the SNP, does it lochside, although you all have your own creepy style of SNP bad nonsense , you dilettante prick.

    335. Petra says:

      Some people post comments to the effect that the current Holyrood versus Westminster situation gets them down and they worry that we won’t get our Independence. None of that bothers me at all.

      What DOES get me down however is coming on here on a daily basis and reading posts full of vulgar language, especially when it’s from people that I know can construct a half decent sentence.

      You won’t find this kind of language being used on other sites, such as comment sections in newspapers. There are clear regulations relating to the use vulgar and obscene language, that is that posts that include such language don’t see the light of day. Why would that be?

      Many of these vile words are being used by individuals who claim to be Independence supporters. They say that they want to see support for the Independence cause rise. They reckon that this site is the first port of call for people who are considering their options. The ‘undecided.’

      So why on earth would such people risk putting individuals off supporting Independence? Do they really think that people want to come on here and read words such as pr*ck, f**ny, c*nt, f*d, sh*te, f*cking etc, etc, etc.

      Well I can tell them that they don’t. I personally know of a (large) number of people who have been put right off by this, people that I have personally directed to this site, that have stated that if this is the type of people that support the Independence movement they don’t want to be part of it. In other words instead of attracting support they are doing the opposite. One then has to ask if such people are really independence supporters at all or do they have a more hidden agenda? Know full well that this is putting people off? A form of propaganda?

      Propaganda is intended to alter the way people think and feel about the society they live in and its governing values and priorities. Something to reflect on.

      Although we post on here as individuals we have a collective responsibility to others. It’s high time that we cleaned up our act on here, imo.

    336. colin alexander says:


      Well said.

      There’s absolutely no need for all the personal insults and gutter language.

      We should all be able to debate and discuss – and disagree -without resorting to personal insults and profanities.

      When it’s all just slagging and obscene insults, it makes it look like Ned Central instead of being an often interesting informative and stimulating political forum.

    337. K1 says:

      Seriously Petra? I mean seriously you are stating that people are put off Scotland’s self determination because some people use sweary words in response to others or expressions of frustration btl on Wings?

      But you seem to think you are the moderator on here and can compare Wings btl with other ‘msm’ rags and the rags come out on top because they don’t let the sweary words pass their filters?

      Seriously…you are literally stating that a swear word is preventing people from voting Yes.

      Excuse me while I faint with embarrassment at such infantile logic on this matter.

      By all means have your opinion Petra, but don’t come btl the line on Wings telling the rest of us to ‘clean up our act’ because your gentle sensibilities and those of your pals are offended by the words fuck, or cunt or shite, fanny and especially the word ‘fud’ and that’s their ‘bottom line’ when it comes down to: ‘

      ‘if this is the type of people that support the Independence movement they don’t want to be part of it.’

      Well quite frankly Petra if that is how shallow the people you associate with are, then I’m sorry to inform you and them that we are actually adults on this site. I personally don’t give one flying fuck about what your pals think about those of us who have enough grasp of the language and creative flair to incorporate swear words into our posts as part of our general chat on here?

      I’d love you to say this to Stu Petra? He’s like a fucking trooper, are your friends put off being part of the movement because Stuart Campbell swears? Or do you not direct your friends to the Rev’s Twitter feed for this very reason?

      Grow up Petra and don’t play mammy on here, it’s not your site and there is no moderation on swearing. I’m pretty certain that Stu hasn’t placed any such nonsense rules on his blog ‘because’ he’s an adult and he isn’t trying to ‘whitewash’ ordinary people and the way we actually interact and at times express ourselves in real life interactions with others.

      If ‘you’ don’t like it Petra, don’t post, but don’t attempt a feeble ‘blackmail’ of ‘ma pals are put off’ and ‘you lot better clean up yer act’ because ‘yer putting people off ‘independence’. That is a shameless and provable lie Petra.

      Go preach somewhere else, this church is a wide and broad one and if your lot can’t stomach a sweary word here, then all I can say is they’ve lived a sheltered life, but you haven’t Petra. It is you who should know better than to post that kind of nonsense on here.

      Don’t admonish others for the intolerance of people you know who take offence at other’s language Petra. Don’t shield them, ask them what their issue really is, explore that dynamic instead of thinking for one moment that it is your responsibility to come btl and lecture the rest of us on how we express ourselves, because someone or others you know can’t hear a word inside their own mind that they read on a page on the internet and that has scunnered them to the point of being put off independence.

      And don’t ever infer that people on here are ‘less than’ in that snotty manner ever again ‘…that if this is the type of people..’. That is disgraceful snobbery on the part of the people you know and you for even allowing yourself to relate that to others on this site.


      Panelbase poll mid December 2017: 49% Yes. It’ll be the ‘swearing on Wings’ that’s holding back the rest of Scotland.

    338. Petra says:

      Not surprised to see you on here K1.

    339. K1 says:

      No response to my points raised Petra?

      Tarring people with brushes when you have no idea who they are…is that a thing?

    340. Petra says:

      ”Tarring people with brushes when you have no idea who they are ..”

      Just as you are doing as you have clearly have no idea who I was referring to, K1.

      It’s amazing how you just jumped to conclusions with your ”my friends” or ”my pals”. It just so happens that the people that I’m talking about aren’t my pals or friends at all. They number amongst the hundreds of people I visit through my work, a wide range of people fron different socio-economic backgrounds, and most are not ”snobs”, ”shallow” or have lived ”sheltered lives” at all. FAR from it in fact.

      As to not answering the points that you raised. What points would that be? You didn’t raise any points. Just came on to ”admonish” me for pointing out the viewpoints of people who have previously visited this site.

      Try putting yourself in their shoes, in that this is the first site of its kind that you have visited and see what YOU make of it … such as the content of some of your prior posts.

    341. K1 says:

      Well you characterised who you were referring to as ‘I personally know of a (large) number of people…’ I could be forgiven for taking that as people you knew personally Petra.

      My mistake on that point, happy to concede.

      So you have based what you say next on that 1 point?

      What other points did I raise?

      That you even went so far as to suggest that anyone coming onto Wings would be put off Independence by seeing swear words on Wings btl Petra?

      That the cohort you were referrring to, which you have now expanded on, have characterised those using swear words as ‘this is the type of people’. The point of me referring to them as shallow still stands, if seeing a swear word on a page threatens your capacity to think through why you may support independence and you arrive at ‘swearing on Wings btl’ is a factor in determining your political affiliation with our movement then that is shallow Petra?

      That you think you are the moderator on Wings, that you suggested ‘we cleaned up our act’ so that the cohort you are referring does not feel ‘offended’ by seeing swear words in posts.

      Y’see Petra there was a few points that are completely independent of your grasping at my one error in terms of ‘yer pals’ et al, was there not?

      So you just resorted to characterising the entire thrust of what I said on that one point alone and now suggest that I can’t place myself in others shoes. I can Petra, I can state with pretty near certainty that people aren’t put off self determination because they saw a swear word on Wings btl.

      And if they are being put off on that basis, it’s that that needs further enquiry not for you to come btl and play mammy on Wings cause people ‘you have directed to Wings’ have come back to you to moan about a swear word as if that is all that takes place btl?

      You don’t have to tell people off because ‘people you know from many different backgrounds’ amazingly all have the exact same issue. Seriously Petra if you’re going to debate with me…up your game my dear.

      Yes…kinda thought you needed to get at me for my posts Petra. Be honest eh? You’re the one with the swearing issue but that’s neither here nor there is it? It’s not your site, there is no swearing moderation, is there?

      I genuinely don’t mind that you don’t like my posts, you know the drill, don’t you? But don’t dress it up as ‘swearing puts people off Independence’.

      Does it fuck Petra. 🙂

      Panel base poll mid December 2017; 49% Yes. I don’t know what you don’t get, that is the most valid point that I made, is it not?

      Have a nice evening Petra.

    342. Petra says:

      ”Seriously Petra if you’re going to debate with me…up your game my dear.”

      Call this a debate? I’m not actually debating with you at all.

      As to your comment, ”Panel base poll mid December 2017; 49% Yes. I don’t know what you don’t get, that is the most valid point that I made, is it not?”

      Valid point? What does that tell us in relation to this site? Nought.

      Last post to you. Save your breath.

    343. K1 says:

      Och don’t be like that Petra. You don’t understand my humour…or how cheeky I am.

      It tells us that this site with all it’s terrible btl vulgarity is not impacting the rise of the Yes vote, it is going up regardless of you and others protestations that ‘swearing’ btl on Wings puts people off Independence. It doesn’t…because ‘not swearing’ is not a reason why anyone supports Independence.

      I thought that was self evident.

      Also I don’t take myself as seriously as you take yourself Petra. And as seriously as you are now taking me.

      Seriously, have a nice evening 🙂

    344. yesindyref2 says:

      Sheesh, after all that I’m just going to have to go and feck myself 🙂

    345. heedtracker says:

      Petra says:
      18 January, 2018 at 8:40 pm
      ”Tarring people with brushes when you have no idea who they are ..”

      Just as you are doing as you have clearly have no idea who I was referring to, K1.

      Sorry Petra. I’ll stop swearing WoS btl. Well I’ll try to.

      Why do you think you have a dude like Colin A to back you up, who’s got nothing to say but SNP bad, because there IS such a dearth of SNP badders around today;-)

    346. Rock says:

      colin alexander,

      “Except, they haven’t campaigned for independence since 2014, but EXPECTED and took it for granted that pro-independence supporters would keep voting for them anyway, cos they’re the SNP.”

      Well Nicola had been too busy flogging a dead horse – a separate deal for Scotland which was never going to happen.

      In so doing, she squandered a once in a 1000 years golden opportunity of Scotland actually becoming independent.

      The result?

      Fall in SNP support from 50% to 37%, with a loss of half a million voters and 23 MPs at the last election.

      The “sovereign” clueless pompous armchair pundits posting here have no idea of the situation on the ground.

    347. heedtracker says:

      Rock says:
      18 January, 2018 at 11:04 pm
      colin alexander,

      See Petra, two tory yoon dingdongs, usual two tory dingdong double whammy, SNP bad, WoS btl people also, bad.

      Hey Rock, you forgot your, dont buy the National and Scots are stupidest morons in the world mantra too.

      Yoons are funny:D

    348. yesindyref2 says:

      Rock must be well above a BI of 0.4444 by now.

    349. Thepnr says:

      That dead horse has taking a fair flogging by now I know.

      What of the “situation on the ground” I know naught can you give us a briefing?

    350. yesindyref2 says:

      With my interest in defence I know I shouldn’t, but …

    351. geeo says:

      2017 Election result.

      SNP 35 SEATS

      TORY……13 SEATS




      STILL beat the tories by 22 SEATS

      STILL beat labour by 28 SEATS

      STILL beat lib dems by 31 SEATS.


      That is a pretty clear, by any democratic definition, of a resounding endorsement of the SNP.

      I feel your pain Rock and coco…i really do, but the Scottish people spoke, and thoroughly REJECTED unionism.

    352. K1 says:

      One last ‘tiny wee’ point.

      The traffic on this site has risen year on year…not fallen like those esteemed rags whose comments pages are full of the vilest anti Scottish and anti SNP comment sections you can find, but of course those comments are allowed by those moderators.

      Could there be any more evidence of the wrong headedness of those asserting that Wings btl vulgarity is a huge issue wrt ‘putting people of voting Yes’? Or turning people off Wings itself?

      The numbers contradict those assertions, the evidence does not support the proposition.

      To conflate ones own personal issues regarding how others express themselves on here with diminishing support for Independence is a nonsense. They are not related and it is the intellectual dishonesty involved in the attempt to persuade others that it is that riles me and has done so in the past when we’ve discussed this on Wings.

      The rise of the Yes vote to the degree that it reached 45% is a testament to the power of Wings…not just Stu but especially the btl comments, for anyone to even suggest that we are not genuine independence supporters because we use swear words in our posts is one of the more ridiculous assertions that’s been touted a few times by those who have, what can only be termed as ‘hang up’s’ surrounding the use of certain words that ‘trigger’ the ‘moral high ground’ response in them.

      Perhaps these people could educate themselves a little about swearing and it’s functions and uses in society?

      ‘Researchers point out that cursing is often an amalgam of raw, spontaneous feeling and targeted, gimlet-eyed cunning. When one person curses at another, they say, the curser rarely spews obscenities and insults at random, but rather will assess the object of his wrath, and adjust the content of the “uncontrollable” outburst accordingly.’


      Studies show that if you’re with a group of close friends, the more relaxed you are, the more you swear,” Burridge said. “It’s a way of saying: ‘I’m so comfortable here, I can let off steam. I can say whatever I like.’ ”

      Evidence also suggests that cursing can be an effective means of venting aggression and thereby forestalling physical violence.‘


      Frans de Waal a professor of primate behavior at Emory University in Atlanta, said that when chimpanzees were angry “they will grunt or spit or make an abrupt, upsweeping gesture that, if a human were to do it, you’d recognize it as aggressive.”

      Such behaviors are threat gestures, de Waal said, and they are all a good sign.
      “A chimpanzee who is really gearing up for a fight doesn’t waste time with gestures, but just goes ahead and attacks,” he added.’

      By the same token, he said, nothing is more deadly than a person who is too enraged for expletives — who cleanly and quietly picks up a gun and starts shooting.’

      There are countless other articles on this subject if people cared to research the subject.


    353. Ghillie says:

      Hey there Petra =) Wow, that’s quite an unwarrented blacklash you’ve just had flung at you.

      I find I can be right sweary when talking at times and thoroughly enjoy it but somehow rarely feel the inclination when I’m writing.

      And I am mindful that here I am speaking as someone who wants Independence for Scotland.

      So yes, I do try to communicate here in a way that will at least not cause offence or hurt. I know K1, I’m a right goody two shoes 🙂

      Though who knows how long that will last, with what still lies ahead !

      Have a lovely day Petra x

    354. K1 says:

      Och Ghillie…I challenged the assertion that swearing puts others off Independence. There is no evidence that supports this.

      Swearing isn’t about causing offence or hurt. You yourself just acknowledged that you swear in every day interactions…I’m pretty certain that you are not causing offence or hurt in doing so?

      I tend to write as I speak, I’m also very specific as to when and to whom I aim that at. The characterisation of ‘this is the type of people’ because someone swears in a post is an awful snobbery and reveals more about the mentality of those who think in theses terms than it does about the people they are referring to. That because of ‘these types of people’ one doesn’t want or is put off Independence is a ridiculous assertion.

      Petra didn’t receive an unwarranted backlash, I’m sorry that you have misrepresented what I pointed out in my posts. I challenged these assertions. Petra didn’t like that and went in a huff.

      One is neither a good person or a bad person because one swears. More saliently on this subject on this forum, there is no moderation on swearing and it is not up to others to come btl and take the moral high ground because they define others according to what their perceptions of a swear word means ‘to/for them’.

      Again I would direct people to Stu’s twitter feed and to the occasions he nips btl the line…no one utters a word to him about his swearing…I wonder why that is…

      Have a lovely day Ghillie. 🙂

    355. Ghillie says:

      K1 You maybe make a valid point about swearing in general. There are pros and cons.

      I perceive that Petra did receive an unwarrented blacklash for airing her concerns. Nor is she the first on this site to suggest we reign it in a bit. Whether we should or not is up to each of us individualy. It was a suggestion based on feedback. Indeed, possibly from folk who were only looking for an excuse to avoid reading what appears here.

      Your posts sounded a bit heavyhanded and close to bullying to me. Not just challenging an idea, which is valid, but an uncomfortable bit beyond that, as well as personal. My perception, and maybe not your intention.

      Anyway, how do you know that Petra went off in a huff? She probably just went to bed!

      I often enjoy and support your posts but these ones sat ill with me.

      Friends, families and loved ones can squabble and it can be difficult to find a way back from that.

      So in the words of a wise friend, Peace and Love K1 and Petra.

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