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The dead horse

Posted on September 15, 2018 by

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    1. 15 09 18 08:56

      The dead horse | speymouth

    423 to “The dead horse”

    1. Den Cairns says:

      Always inspired CC. Love the reflection on the goggles???.

    2. Achnababan says:


    3. Croompenstein says:

      Mr Cairns take a bow, brilliant..

    4. Dunks says:

      What a talent to have. I do mean Mr Cairns obviously!

    5. sassenach says:

      Surely Adam won’t try to give the ‘kiss-of-life’ to this dying nag?!!

    6. Les Wilson says:

      No subtleties there Chris, straight to the unmistakable point.
      Wha’s like yea!

    7. Ken500 says:

      What an absolute shambles. The best Brexit deal for Scotland is Independence. Get rid of the lot of them.

      The ‘reporters’ would not last a minute in an Independent Scotland. They would all get the sack. Useless, malicious incompetents backing up a useless UK Gov of total losers. Overpaid prima donnas, They can’t count or read a balance sheet, investigate or analyse. They just specialise in telling lies.

    8. doug_bryce says:

      Treeza May wants the SNP to back a deal even her own party won’t support.

      England demands full fat brexit. Ireland will be re-united and Scotland will be independent. The UK is crumbling.

    9. starlaw says:

      Summed up in one ….Again

    10. uno mas says:

      Aye it´s right enough.

      “They shoot horses,don´t they”?

    11. Jason Smoothpiece says:

      Nice one.

      Applies to most unionist policies for Scotland not just the Brexit scandal.

    12. Andy smith says:

      Dead or not, the horse still looks better than those two.

    13. Robert Louis says:

      Scotland will back none of this. A reminder for feeble minded brexiteerrs and unionist stooges in Scotland, every single f****** constituency in Scotland voted against brexit. Not one area voted in favour. Not one. In Edinburgh, where the Tory leader in Scotland Ruth Davidson currently resides, the vote was over 70% against.

      Why should anybody in Scotland back any of it, including a second vote. We voted against brexit, yet England has decided to just drag Scotland and its people out of the EU anyway. That is not democracy, that is tyranny.

      Time is getting near when NS MUST call the referendum. People are getting p*ssed off now, and brexit is too close for comfort.

    14. ronnie anderson says:

      As a one time equestrian I always had a love of Horses , as any rider knows its kinder to put a auld cuddy doon when it’s oan its last legs .

      Welldone Chris .

    15. HYUFD says:

      Dougbryce Wales voted Leave too as did most Protestants in Northern Ireland and hence the Protestant majority counties like Antrim and Down. However most polling even in England shows most voters also oppose a No Deal Brexit so most likely whether it is May or ultimately Corbyn who is PM it will be a largely mirror the single market and customs union Brexit with a work permit on arrival requirement

    16. Fillofficer says:

      (In a French accent, mais oui)

    17. Adam and Jacob,very Old Testament,

      Adam f#cked up Paradise,

      Jacob stole his brothers birthright and blessing.

    18. galamcennalath says:


      Even though ‘Chequers’ died within days, it would have been unacceptably hard for Scotland anyway.

      Anything harder than full single market membership must be opposed by the SNP. Of course, the BritNats know this and are only trying to score points as usual.

      Labour say (though can they be trusted) they will oppose any May plan because they want a GE. Will dozens of Tories like Moggy really also vote against a May plan? Also, a lot of people, including across Europe and SNP, are getting wise to the threat of a fudgy blind Brexit.

      So, the real choice might be GE or No Deal, or both.

    19. Jim Morris says:

      The one and only reason/purpose for Brexit was to continue to operate tax havens in British Overseas Territories. These would have been banned from April next year by EU Finance Law. The Tories and their allies do not care what else happens after Brexit, and their dupes who voted for this can console themselves that this IS what they voted for in the referendum.

    20. almannysbunnet says:

      It could just as easily have been Ruth Davidson flogging the dead horse and her out of control MP Ross Thompson holding the gun. In fact there is probably no end of unionist duos who could be cartoon understudies on this one 🙂

    21. David MacGille-Mhuire says:

      They shoot fools and horses, don’t they? Nag down. Just waiting on their BritNat game of Russian Roulette to reach its inevitable conclusion. Kafka would have been all over this stuff. Don’t believe them when they say the Theatre of the Absurd is dead – not quite yet; just waiting for the final soliloquy from some stone mad Brexiteer of a Unionist Godot.

    22. Bill Hume says:

      Jim Morris..08:41 has the truth of it.
      Remember Watergate…….follow the money.

    23. Clootie says:

      …should it not have been a flintlock pistol for Jacob?

    24. paul mccormack says:

      A beautiful richly-layered illustration. Absolutely spot on. 11/10. Take a bow Chris. You’re up there with the best of them. Easily.

    25. Tam Fae Somewhere says:

      Jim MORRIS at 08:41


      David Cameron did not make a mistake calling for the Brexit referendum.

      There will also be no extension beyond 29th March otherwise the City of London will have too much light shone on the murkier parts. They cannot allow that to happen. They have been planning this for years. Why else was the Maybot kept in Home Office for so long despite being no good? She is the selected patsy for the exit. Watch her disappear completely within months of Brexit.

    26. galamcennalath says:

      The mad world of Brexit is not as chaotic as it seems.

      On the extremes of the spectrum there is clarity – Remainers connive to remain, the über right hopes for a No Deal ideological cleansing of all liberal values.

      What of the in-betweens, those who accept Brexit but wish to remain close to Europe?

      The fantasists, with cherry picking the EU benefits they like and rejecting the responsibilities they don’t, still day dream. Or, has this largely stopped and the mythological land of Chequers is now just a smoke screen?

      There is more are more evidence that May will accept a new draft of the Irish backstop and the EU will accept a woolly statement of future trading, then the Withdrawal Agreement with non binding future statement can be signed. May needs to get it through WM so is is gambling anything is better than No Deal for a majority. She shouldn’t be so sure.

      Labour want a GE so are saying they will oppose anything.

      The SNP are wise to this Blind Brexit strategy. Mike Russell – ” Brexit with next to no detail about future relationship – a so called ‘blind Brexit’ – would be completely unacceptable. “

      @Nana posted a link this morning on the subject …

      In most ways, it comes down to what the über right do. To achieve a Brexit, they might back a Blind Brexit with the hope of achieving a hard solution later. They might continue to scheme for No Deal with last minute emergency mini deals for the essentials.

      Or, a GE might come out of it.

    27. K1 says:

      ‘HYUFD says:
      26 August, 2018 at 12:02 am
      K1 My country is the UK, the only sovereign country in GB. I have not lost the debate at all, I am absolutely right. The only sovereign country in GB with its own Passport, currency, Head of State, representation at the G7, the G20, the UN and the Olympics is the UK. England and Scotland are ceremonial countries, nothing more’

      Do fuck off.

    28. Valerie says:

      He’s not dead! He’s only resting!

      Great toon, as ever, Chris.

    29. jfngw says:

      Anyone who doubts the BBC being an arm of government just need to look at their immediate response the the Archbishop of Canterbury criticising the government and big business. The item attacking him the following day was much longer than the piece on his initial comments.

      If only they could cover the inconsistencies in Ruth Davidson’s position so quickly, but somehow I don’t believe that ever will be on the agenda.

    30. Valerie says:

      HIFUD @8.34

      What an absolute load of horseshit (keeping with the theme)

      A “mirror” SM and CU???? How do you think up such unhinged nonsense? This is the “mirror” that deluded Britnats reside inside?

      It’s this type of refusal to face the facts, that is breaking up your beloved Union.

      Keep going, every push like this helps our cause.

    31. Grouse Beater says:

      That horse is still up and galloping, Chris. Well, maybe trotting.

      Your essential weekend reading

      The Power of the SNP:

    32. Shinty says:

      Jim Morris says
      15 September, 2018 at 8:41 am
      “The one and only reason/purpose for Brexit was to continue to operate tax havens in British Overseas Territories. These would have been banned from April next year by EU Finance Law. The Tories and their allies do not care what else happens after Brexit, and their dupes who voted for this can console themselves that this IS what they voted for in the referendum”

      Absolutely spot on.

      Anyone interested should check out this documentary.
      The Spider’s Web
      (The City of London, corruption, money laundering, tax havens etc.)

    33. Dan Huil says:

      Nice one, Chris. Another amusing part about it all is that unbridled British nationalists like Mugg continue to be the so-called united kingdom’s worst enemies.

      The so-called united kingdom needs putting out of its misery – for all our sakes.

    34. Iain mhor says:

      @Rock will have an aneurysm seeing this, haha.

    35. yesindyref2 says:

      OT and maybe I’m in a bad mood being up all night.

      There seem to be people saying we should leave Indy Ref until after Brexit so people will suffer and vote YES. Apart from being a silly presumption, it totally missses the point. On 20th March 2017 the following motion with an amendment was passed by 69 votes to 59 votes. The motion was this (and thanks again to Thepnr):

      Motion S5M-04710: Nicola Sturgeon, Glasgow Southside, Scottish National Party, Date Lodged: 20/03/2017
      Scotlands Choice

      That the Parliament acknowledges the sovereign right of the Scottish people to determine the form of government best suited to their needs and therefore mandates the Scottish Government to take forward discussions with the UK Government on the details of an order under section 30 of the Scotland Act 1998 to ensure that the Scottish Parliament can legislate for a referendum to be held that will give the people of Scotland a choice over the future direction and governance of their country at a time, and with a question and franchise, determined by the Scottish Parliament, which would most appropriately be between the autumn of 2018, when there is clarity over the outcome of the Brexit negotiations, and around the point at which the UK leaves the EU in spring 2019.

      Supported by: Michael Russell, John Swinney, Fiona Hyslop

      the amendment by Patrick Harvie was this:

      Motion S5M-04710.5: Patrick Harvie, Glasgow, Scottish Green Party, Date Lodged: 20/03/2017
      Scotland’s Choice

      As an amendment to motion S5M-04710 in the name of Nicola Sturgeon (Scotland’s Choice), insert at end ; believes that this gives people in Scotland a choice at a time when there is both the most information and most opportunity to act; further believes that 16 and 17-year-olds and EU citizens, who were excluded from the EU referendum, should be entitled to vote, and considers that this referendum is necessary given the Prime Ministers decision to negotiate a hard exit from the EU, including leaving the single market, which conflicts with assurances given by the UK Government and prominent Leave campaigners, and which takes no account of the overwhelming Remain vote in Scotland.”

      That is NOT after Brexit has actually taken place, Scotland would have no choice.

    36. Dorothy Devine says:

      Should be in the mainstream Chris!

      I have a hideous lurgy and won’t make it to George square so could somebody give Ronnie, Sam , Paul and if they get there Sybil and Smallaxe a hug please – thanks!

    37. galamcennalath says:

      A Brexit opinion piece from Ireland. There is so much clear thinking across the water.

      ” An internal differentiation of Northern Ireland threatens to set precedents for Scotland. Both voted to remain in the EU. “

    38. Dr Jim says:

      England is not Scotlands friend:

      The United Kingdom is not a country and to keep repeating that lie is and always has been a propaganda exercise by the English parliament to make people believe that lie

      If indeed the United Kingdom were a country what would be the need for representation from other parts of it when the numbers of one country outweigh those of the other constituent parts so it is a perpetuation of a lie to confuse the citizens of the other parts reducing them to mere onlookers of the decisions taken by the part with the greatest number

      Scotland is a partner in this United Kingdom but is treated as though it’s township or village within an English country
      The media and the government promote this fallacy daily by calling the Union a country so much so until a people are so subsumed they accept it as so and forget the truth which is that the United Kindgom is NOT NOT NOT a country

      What the English or indeed the Welsh or Northern Irish decide to do with their existence is and should be a matter for them but what Scotland decides to do is a matter for Scotland

      These are the facts and they are undisputed and will be upheld whether British nationalists like it or like it not
      British nationalists will have their opportunity to vote within Scotland to support their case for remaining in the Union with a country that outvotes them 10 to 1 if they so choose, that’s democracy but what they will not have is the right to prevent legality taking its course and when a majority of Scotlands population of its own will decides to leave this Union they will find the country and people they chose (England) to allow to run their affairs previously will resent them just as much as those of us who voted to leave, because no matter how strongly a Unionist person may feel about the situation they in Scotland England does not feel the same way about Scotland, they have no loyalty no ties except those of impending financial loss to their own country of England so Unionists should not hold out some forlorn hope of England having some mystical power over the law to make this situation go away, they don’t even though they may try

      But it’s not because England is your friend it’s because England is your owner and nobody likes losing property

    39. Hamish100 says:

      hes a fud and rock- ever seen them in a room together? Great cartoon. Brexit is baaad for all but in particular Scotland.

      Independence is our only option

    40. galamcennalath says:

      Dr Jim says

      The United Kingdom is not a country

      Indeed. Only the gullible and con-merchants who target them describe the UK is a country.

      No where, to my knowledge, is the claim made officially.

      The UK’s charter and official definition at the United Nations describes itself as a Union between two Countries, one Principality and a Provence.

    41. dakk says:

      Nice one Chris.

      Rees Mogg seems very popular with the Britnats/UKnats or whatever the fuck they are.

      Been wondering why the English Establishment were floating the idea of a ‘Scottish’ nonentity like Ruth Harrison being next Tory leader and possible PM of their Britin.

      It can only be that she is Protestant whilst Rees Mogg being devout Papist would obviously be disqualified from these posts by sectarian English/British/UK law.

    42. Bob Mack says:

      The second of the four horsemen of the Apocalypse. The red horse intimates war and strife. It also indicates civil war.

      The Tories torn by strife as is Labour, trying to rally forces who want nothing to do with them.

      The death knell sounds for this Union.

      Brilliant cartoon Chris on so many levels. I applaud you.

    43. Jack Murphy says:

      Sorry for going Off Topic so soon,but the ‘The Hope Over Fear—This Time It’s Yes’ Rally from Glasgow is on Independence Live at the moment. 🙂

    44. Gary45% says:

      Nice One Chris, another classic.
      This sums up the mentality of the Union, show any of them this cartoon, and they would still back this horse over an SNP horse.(The Union at ANY COST)
      Hope this makes sense!!

    45. gus1940 says:


      It has been suggested that as part of the Oct 6th. AUOB March and Rally In Edinburgh each of the participants should bring along an item for donation to Food Banks.

      This a brilliant idea as not only will it give a good near accurate count of the number pf participants but pictures of mountains of contributions would be difficult for the media to ignore.

    46. Daisy Walker says:

      For those saying Brexit is all about the tax havens – spot on.

      It is not possible to stay in the SM or CU without remaining in the European Court of Justice.

      If the ECJ is still in operation with jurisdiction in your area – then the new tax laws governing tax havens will be implemented.

      The EU is quite determined on this – International Industrial Tax Dodging is now threatening 1st world economies – they’re actually doing something about it.

      Worryingly the mad Brexiteers did not appear to understand the operational tie in – hence their initial statements about ‘of course we can leave, but still be in the SM/CU’.

      Now they know, and their choice is clear, generations of ill gotten gains, from the spice trade, to slavery, to the modern day tax evasion – the 1% will screw us all and survive.

      My best guess from what I’ve read, is that the following is the order of monetary bigness.

      1/ Money Stashed In Tax Havens (and the tax not paid)

      2/ Scotland’s Oil and Gas

      3/ Scotland’s Renewables (not fully online yet, but a banker for the future and 4 x bigger than the oil and gas)

      4/ The Selling Off of Nationalised Industries
      a) Particularly the NHS – cause relatives of sick loved ones will pay anything, for always
      b) Longer term – Scotland’s Water

      Of course it helps if you can control food and water standards, reduce/compromise them and you can contribute to making the public ill, which feeds a constant (and lucrative) customer stream to your newly privatised health system. A circular economic model – the dark model.

      Scotland’s Oil and Gas is the petty cash supply to fund Brexit.

      We so need out of the UK and fast.

      And remember the 2008 Bankers Austerity Crash cut GPD by 2%. So all the job losses in public sector was from that, and that’s not even finished yet.

      A Soft Brexit will hit GPD by another 2%
      A Hard Brexit by 8% – 2.7 million job losses.

      For those of us old enough to remember Thatcher’s rule – remember this, in those days, there were teaching jobs, University Jobs, Police Service, Fire Service, NHS Service, Social Service jobs, Council jobs. With the above Brexit hits, we will not have them, they simply cannot survive another 2% cut. It will be like Thatchers rule all over again, but on speed.

      Bad news travels. Bad news is an easy sell.

      Better Together had a plan of 2 parts bad news to one part good (they appealed to a Scottish sense of social justice and nostalgia, plus an inherent inertia of ‘you don’t have to do anything’).

      This time out the circumstances dictate – Project Fear is all ours because of Brexit, and Indy is the path of least resistance and positive outcome. We need to play this for all our worth.

      Best wishes to all.

    47. Josef Ó Luain says:

      @ Shinty
      “Anyone interested should check out this documentary.”

      Anyone truly interested in Scotland’s future and our place in the world is, in my humble opinion, duty-bound to watch this documentary.

      Thanks for the link.

    48. mogabee says:

      Such a brutally honest depiction of the Tory cabal in the UK.

      Ruthless! Insane, heartless and willfully blind to what they are doing to everyone’s future.

      Chris you have excelled with this ‘toon, an award winner!

    49. OT if the Union of theUK was an equal Union then all the members should have an equal number of MPs surely??? Also if they are trying to close down people’s right to protest through the Internet etc., they should beware because the only form of protest left could be violence !!!?

    50. Bradford Millar says:

      O/T is it just me or does Reece Mogg look like Herr Flick from Allo Allo

    51. Proud Cybernat says:

      “…they should beware because the only form of protest left could be violence !!!?

      Ah – the old ‘violence’ card. Utter pish. People are already off the internet and on the streets of Scotland practically every month now marching and demonstrating PEACEFULLY.

      There will be no violence from the indy ranks, that’s for certain. It is first and foremost a peaceful movement. The only violence anyone has ever seen in this constitutional debate has come from extremist British Nationalists – FACT.

    52. Robert Peffers says:

      @Valerie says: 15 September, 2018 at 10:52 am:

      Replying to – HYUFD @8.34:
      ” … How do you think up such unhinged nonsense?”

      Och! Valerie, He/She/It doesn’t think. He/She/It, is after all a unionist and unionists, by definition, are not capable of reasoned, joined-up, thinking. They are mentally conditioned from birth to accept the Westminster Establishment mantras in a similar fashion to all other religion’s and their illogical teachings.

      Not one of these religions can show proof that Gods exist. Thus blind faith and denial of truth is the basis of all such beliefs.

      In this case we have this idiot’s moronic claims that , “his/her/its country is, “The United Kingdom”.

      Now that title, quite literally, describes, “The United Kingdom of Great Britain & Northern Ireland”. Now factually there are two distinct United Kingdoms in the British Isles. The oldest being that formed in 1503 by, “The Union of the Crowns”, that legally was only a personal union of the Crowns for James VI of Scots who inherited the three crowns of the Kingdom of England.

      On 11 July 1603 the crowns of Scotland and England were united under King James VI of Scotland as he became King James I of England.

      However, the ‘perfect union’ that King James hoped for was not achieved for Scotland and England kept their own parliaments, their own laws and minted their own coinage. That, “Union of the Crowns”, was, and still is, the personal, “United Kingdom”, of the current monarchy and it includes the three non-United Kingdom Government, Crown Protectorates of Jersey, Guernsey and Man. That Personal union of the Monarch did not result in a united kingdom government because the sovereignty of the two independent kingdoms was legally different in 1603.

      It remained legally different in 1688 when The Kingdom Of England Parliamentarians rebelled against their rightful monarch and deposed the King of the Kingdom of England. They rejected over 50 royals in the direct line and invited a foreign minor royal, Princess Mary of Orange, to become Queen of the Kingdom of England. Mary was actually a Stuart by birth.

      However, Mary did not want her Husband “Billy”, to become her consort and under, then current, English law a male partner in a marriage actually owned his wife and all her possessions. Hence the offer was legally as joint monarchs or the English Crowns would have legally moved to the Dutch.

      In any event the English Parliamentarians then offered the three crowns of the Kingdom of England to the royal couple as joint monarchs and thus the Kingdom of England became, “Nassau-Orange/Stuart”, but as the two British Kingdoms were still both independent the English changes could not be legally applied to the Kingdom of Scotland and that can of worms is still at the heart of Westminster’s troubled to this day.

      First of all it only changed the English Rule of Law very slightly in that the offer of the joint monarchy to William & Mary was conditional upon then legally delegating their, “Divine Right of Kings to rule”,(a.k.a. Sovereignty), to the still independent Parliament of England. Thus the countries of England, Wales & Ireland became a, “Constitutional Monarchy”.

      This did not apply to the Kingdom of Scotland that had, in any event, changed its rule of law from Divine Right of Kings in 1320 by the declaration of Arbroath that made gave the people of Scotland the Divine Right to rule, (made them sovereign), hence the long held claim that, “Scots were, “God’s Chosen People”, or more commonly that Scotland was, “God’s own Country”. The monarch of Scotland thus became The Protector of the People of Scotland’s Sovereignty.

      Thus the Westminster attempted application of the changes to the English Kingdom’s monarchy and the English Rule of Law instantly began the Jacobite uprisings as the parliament of Scotland had not deposed their monarch. This, of course, shows the English claims that the Jacobites were rebels was total lies. You cannot rebel against another kingdom’s monarchy.

      This situation is what led to the Westminster plot to force the Treaty of Union and Westminster continually breaking the terms of that Treaty since day one of the union and the problems Westminster faces today.

      The United Kingdom is legally, and it always has been, a union of only two Kingdoms and it has never legally been a union of four countries.

      All it needs now to finally end is for a majority of the legally sovereign people of Scotland to agree the union is over and allow the Kingdom of England sort out all of the many problems it has created for itself.

      I actually do really wish the people of the Kingdom of England well. Their problems rest with Westminster and not with either Scots, Scotland or the Holyrood Parliament.

      Mind you for most of the people of the Kingdom of England I fear this will all fly over their heads. Most unionists, including their MPs, seem to pronounce the name of the Scots Parliament as Hollyrood rather than Holyrood.

    53. Luigi says:

      What are the current odds for a BLIND BREXIT, a complete fudge?

      Think about it: Can kicked down the road, a whole year of SNP BAD to nullify their mandate, Indyref plans knocked back and Scotland effectively tied to the union for the foreseeable future. Sounds too tempting to pass?

      Only one stands in the way, but it’s a whopper:
      A large, rather ugly elephant in the room:

      English Nationalism.

      Oh Dear. 🙂

    54. Les Wilson says:

      We all know our aims but here’s the thing. Just how long do we need to put up with all this propaganda and bad intent aimed at us under the direction of Westminster and their proxies.
      Are we in a Union, ie where there are only 2 participants, Scotland and England or are we not. We know what they think, of course.

      How can we not go to Court and our legal eagles, ones who are aware of what has gone on here.
      This to openly, explained why England is in default of this Union partnership.
      There must be hundreds of instances where they could easily prove that England is in default and broken our Union agreement many, many times by their arrogant and sneaky ways that make England an senior partner armed have the benefit of England as it’s aim. Not an equal in any way, as should have been.

      I am not talking of course of UDI, but a proper legal route that would have to have everything exposed, whereupon England itself due to their actions, have broken the Union agreement and are responsible for it’s demise.
      Would that not be our best route to ensure we succeed, if for any reason Indy2 fails.

      I would hope, and do think, Indy2 will sort it out for us, but they cheat, manipulate and will engage other dirty tricks to stop us winning.So that concern remains. Therefor this would give us a double chance of success, and with no further referendum to be undermined by whatever the means.

      Not so easy to escape a court case where all the evidence is laid out for the world to see. They may not even contest it, because they know how it would all look to the rest of the world. Their serial theft and dirty deeds would not look very good for them at all, and would show them up for what they are. Despots.

      Proceedings in Scottish courts under Scottish law, as we must be entitled to do, as a co signatory of the agreement itself.

    55. Proud Cybernat says:

      “I am not talking of course of UDI, but a proper legal route that would have to have everything exposed, whereupon England itself due to their actions, have broken the Union agreement and are responsible for it’s demise.”

      There Is No Cheat Mode

    56. Brilliant comme d’habitude.
      OT. Monica Lennon, I know that you read this unmissable i-magazine.
      Stop lying about the Glasgow DC equal pay dispute.
      WE all know who is to blame for torturing these women for 10 years.
      You. Your nasty wee Red Tory Party.
      So just remember, we won’t forget.
      Just what is the point of you anyway?

    57. Jock McDonnell says:

      @Les Wilson

      I suppose it would not be England per se, so much as Westminster having overstepped its powers & the treaty being compromised. Course, they argue they are sovereign, but thats just an assertion – so long as we allow it, nothing more.

      Peffers will no doubt be along shortly to explain it at length.

    58. Les Wilson says:

      Proud Cybernat says:
      Thanks for the link, do not know how I missed that one from the dug.
      Anyhoo, it is Indy2 win or bust, well, just need to roll up the sleeves and help more with winning it.

    59. Les Wilson says:

      Jock McDonnell says: Yes, I should have specified Westminster, but I would be sure the doc would have been signed by the authority of the English monarch. Need to check that…

    60. Sarah says:

      @Proud Cybernat 1.57 p.m.

      A referendum/election that was held after such a legal decision would be a very different event. A majority Yes vote would almost be guaranteed.

      I’d like to see some legal/international cases which would expose the shaky position of the UK as currently run. It all helps to expose the lies we are subject to.

    61. Dr Jim says:

      I’ve just spoken to an aquaintance SNP councillor and been told the timing of the referendum is above everybodies pay grade and nobody but nobody is being told anything, I guess that’ll be for fear of any tongue slippage accident or otherwise and when the time comes it’ll come from the top

      So what that means is any rubbish in the media should be ignored totally because there will be no loose *hints* or *sources* or *insiders say* and if you see it the papers are making it up (lying)

    62. Clootie says:

      Always worth reminding current Labour Party Members of the statement below. Look at his values at the start of the previous century. Unfortunately the expansion of the Labour Party led to the “moderation” of socialist values. Keir Hardie didn’t compromise like Tony Blair to win votes. He maintained his principles. I wonder how the branch office justify the arguement for India and South Africa but NOT Scotland?

      Keir Hardie –
      “He was the founder of the Labour Party, the first Leader of the Labour Party, and the first ever Labour Member of Parliament……who supported votes for women, self-rule for India, home-rule for Scotland, and an end to segregation in South Africa. “

    63. manandboy says:

      This is the official position of the discredited BBC concerning six years of an uninterrupted propaganda war against Scotland, containing thousands of lies, relentless smears, and constant promotion of anyone supporting the Union.

      Under the link ‘Why you should trust the BBC’ :-

      Learn how the BBC is working to strengthen trust and transparency in online news.

      “The BBC is recognised by audiences in the UK and around the world as a provider of news that you can trust. Our website, like our TV and radio services, strives for journalism that is accurate, impartial, independent and fair.

      Our editorial values say: “The trust that our audience has in all our content underpins everything that we do. We are independent, impartial and honest. We are committed to achieving the highest standards of accuracy and impartiality and strive to avoid knowingly or materially misleading our audiences.

      “Our commitment to impartiality is at the heart of that relationship of trust. In all our output we will treat every subject with an impartiality that reflects the full range of views. We will consider all the relevant facts fairly and with an open mind.”

      Research shows that, compared to other broadcasters, newspapers and online sites, the BBC is seen as by far the most trusted and impartial news provider in the UK.”

      (From the BBC website:

      The Director of BBC Scotland is Donalda MacKinnon. She is responsible for all BBC output in Scotland and for the unswerving promotion and protection of the fugitive from investigation, Ruth Davidson MSP.

    64. Robert J. Sutherland says:

      Dr Jim @ 14:37,

      Well, that’s something of a relief to know. There’s been rather too much kite-flying recently and it’s been nothing but demoralising.

      Far better to stick to what’s already been voted on in Holyrood, as yesindyref2 kindly reminded us upthread.

    65. Chick McGregor says:


      7 of the top 12 tax havens are British overseas territories, protectorates or recent ex colonies and Commonwealth members.

    66. Chick McGregor says:

      ‘Are we in a Union, ie where there are only 2 participants, Scotland and England or are we not. We know what they think, of course.’

      Nothing new in that Les, this from 1791

    67. Breeks says:

      Nice one Chris.

      Don’t feel sorry for the horse. That’s a Pantomime horse, with Theresa May wearing the trousers, (leather of course), and Boris Johnson as the horses arse.

      I’ll just get ma coat…

    68. Shinty says:

      @ Chick McGregor

      I seem to remember their was another with a Highlander trying to sit on a cludgie (Punch perhaps). Oh how they laughed, har, har.

    69. frogesque says:

      The nag named Chequers is as dead as Shergar. Only fit for flies and dog food. All we need is a salesman

    70. Calum McKay says:

      I think many of our fellow countrymen and women see Mogg (if they see him at all) as an ecentric English gentleman who is peculiar, detached from reality, but ultimately benign.

      His message is lost to all those who merely see him as somewhat quirky!

      Mogg and is ilk see England returning to greatness through free trade where the uk is in a race to the bottom on standards, workers rights and care of vulnerable people, etc.

      Sadly the uk press and bbc seem to make a habit of building up the likes of Mogg and Davidson, pure and utter charlatans!

      Brilliant cartoon!

    71. Colin Alexander says:

      The sovereign people of Scotland voted Remain.

      The SNP rolled over and have been fighting for “soft” Brexit ever since.

      Not fighting for the democratic decision by the sovereign people to be upheld and respected.

      No. Cap in hand to Theresa May and the EU hoping they will take pity on Scotland.

      Only when the SNP faced losing their devolved powers did they fight and go to court over it.

      SNP Self-interest over sovereignty.

      The sooner we get independence the better. Freedom and an end to the SNP. Two great reasons for a double celebration.

    72. HandandShrimp says:

      If Labour back Chequers May’s bacon is saved. If Labour back the Tory rebels then May’s goose is cooked.

      If Labour can’t agree amongst themselves then the result will be pot luck.

      However, given the Tories aren’t speaking to SNP MPs on any issue they have real cheek asking the SNP to do anything much less bail them out of a jam of their own making.

    73. sassenach says:

      Oh no, coco the yoon returns!

    74. Hamish100 says:

      colin alexander, rock, what a fud-


      They don’t – their brit nats.

    75. Seamus says:

      Surely the english are trying to dog a fled horse, that being Scotland and her oil money to pay their credit card,

    76. HandandShrimp says:


      In an independent Scotland we would still need a government that was actually competent. I really wouldn’t trust the current opposition be it Tory or Labour to run a menage at the moment. How the political die fall and align post independence may be fluid but I think much of the current government would still be running the show initially. That may change of course. The beauty of independence is that we choose our own government thereafter and hopefully ever after.

    77. galamcennalath says:

      Dr Jim says

      the timing of the referendum is above everybodies pay grade

      Indeed. I’ve been to a few events with senior politicians and no one says anything. They don’t even hint at the thought processes going on. I am sure they will be in the inner circle and they are positively evasive!

      I do get the impression, “within this parliament”, is extremely likely, or even definite despite muttering to the contrary.

      They will be privy to intelligence, data, polls etc..

      Remember last year, pre election when Nicola made her announcement, it came out of the blue. First anyone knew was FM will be making a statement.

      Presumably the same will happen again. It’s a good beginning to start by back footing the BritNats!

      While non-SNP folks like WGD and McIntyre Kemp will offer intelligent opinion, they are far removed from the decision makers.

    78. HYUFD says:

      Valerie May’s Chequers Plan already mirrored the customs union on goods regulations, the final deal will likely see it mirror the single market too to a large extent with a work permit/study place on arrival requirement. It will largely be a Norway style Brexit initially most probably to get the Withdrawal Agreement and transition deal with any FTA negotiated in the transition.

      Do not forget either 36% of SNP voters ie over a third of SNP supporters voted to Leave the EU, if you want to leave one union ie the UK do not be surprised that a significant minority of your fellow nationalists want to leave another union ie the EU too. Indeed the number of SNP voters who voted Leave was about the same as the number of Labour voters across the UK who voted Leave and significantly more LD and Green voters voted Remain than SNP voters voted Remain

    79. frogesque says:

      Ooooh lookeee!

      Coco and FUD, must be the Crock’s day off.

      Undermine and diversion, how original.

    80. Robert J. Sutherland says:

      HandandShrimp @ 17:27,

      Well said. (Not that Coco is worth the effort, but others might still benefit.)

      In fact, I would go further. The coming of independence would be a right shock for the stagnant BritNat parties, who would have to up their game considerably to show ability to run an actual sovereign government without the crutch of southern bosses telling them what to believe and do. Quite an ask on current performance, you might say, but when needs must…

      The BritNat parties are desperately afraid of extinction post-indy, but this is an (all too typical) pessimistic view. It’s hard to predict exactly how things will develop, but we would certainly need a gamut of competent parties with the ability to both challenge and participate in government, and have sufficient talent and capability to be able to convince voters of that.

      I believe the resultant shake-up would enable the right people to come forward and prosper, and this would be to absolutely everyone’s benefit, including the current opposition. Apart that is from the sluggards, time-servers and no-hopers, of whom we current have a surfeit, and who are a complete damper on progress.

    81. sassenach says:

      coco and fud on the same shift – only need Rock and I’ll be calling “House”!!

    82. galamcennalath says:

      Luigi says

      A large, rather ugly elephant in the room:

      English Nationalism.

      Aye, the root cause of all this stoochie.

      Makes you glad Scottish independentists have largely set aside nationalism 😉

    83. Robert J. Sutherland says:

      HYUFD @ 17:43,

      Divide-and-rule, the old BritNat playbook. Getting a bit tired, that one.

      I can’t believe you’re even a Scot, but assuming you are, it’s pitiful how you cling on the UK as a comfort blanket. Of course, it’s the only way that your minority views can hope to have any influence here.

      Pathetic Uncle Tam. London’s useful idiot. They laugh at people like you behind your back. When they bother to think of you at all.

    84. HandandShrimp says:


      While there is undoubtedly a mix of views in all parties on the EU it is nonetheless the case that enthusiasm in Scotland for Leave (which was never strong) has faded.

      A Norway style deal would most likely tick the box for many SNP voters including those for Leave but I suspect the hard line Tory/UKIP peeps may feel differently and May might struggle with her rebels unless Jeremy backs her deal.

    85. Luigi says:

      Colin Alexander says:
      15 September, 2018 at 4:50 pm

      Colin, if you are trying to start a civil war, you will have to up your game. 🙂

    86. sassenach says:

      I do wonder why certain folk on here cannot help but promote our resident trolls by engaging with them…….Hmmmmm!!

    87. Jock McDonnell says:

      @Les Wilson

      I should have said too that I believe a referendum is the only pragmatic way forward, although @Sarah does have a point, if we had a court decision in our favour it would help things along nicely. Its unlikely to be tested in court though and using a majority of MPs in a GE as a conduit is unlikely to be recognised by Westminster no matter what Thatcher said. Either a court win or a GE win might be a pretext for a referendum though.

      The Dug is on the money I reckon. As I’ve said here before, sovereignty is really an assertion, The Law is what politicians make it & people instruct the politicians. A referendum is the way to go.

      Having watched a video of Mike Russell at a meeting in The Borders that Nana posted earlier this week, he was very clear, the people of Scotland are gonna get a say on Brexit.

      Read today in The Times that Labour’s Thornberry says they won’t support chequers – so its squeaky bum time at No10. A blind Brexit is May’s target but its still very uncertain what will happen in terms of parliamentary arithmetic.

    88. haudonthenoo says:

      Robert J. Sutherland :

      Its pretty clear that we are supposed to ignore the trolls. Why do you engage ?

    89. Robert J. Sutherland says:

      HandandShrimp @ 18:16,

      With respect, the outcome of the ongoing Brexitshambles isn’t the real point. Some last-minute EU-sanctioned Mayfudge is still likely to emerge from the ongoing Tory bourach, but that ignores the salient issue, which is that Scotland has been dragged through the hedges over this by a London government that once had some fine words about full consultation then went ahead and proceeded to do whatever it damn well pleased in the narrow interests of the Tory Party, without any consideration whatever for our clear preference. Helped along by an acquiescent Labour Party with equal indifference to our position, preoccupied as it always is with its own English position.

      With Brexit, there couldn’t be a clearer demonstration of our current total powerlessness to affect our future in any meaningful way. Even with a SG that’s doing its damnedest to behave reasonably.

      If we are not to act now in the light of this contemptuous imposition of a truly historic change to our future direction, when? How many bloody wars, how much attrition of our civic life will we have to endure before we finally wake up and say “enough!”?

      This is not about politics. It’s about fundamental autonomy.

      The human right to be able to choose our own future in our own way, whatever it might be. Simples, no?

    90. Robert Peffers says:

      @Jock McDonnell says: 15 September, 2018 at 2:11 pm:

      ” … Course, they argue they are sovereign, but thats just an assertion – so long as we allow it, nothing more.
      Peffers will no doubt be along shortly to explain it at length.

      You explained it well enough yourself, Jock, when you said, “As long as we allow it”. That is exactly the explanation.

      Westminster does as it pleases because in 1688 Westminster deposed the rightful monarchy of the Kingdom of England, skipped over 50 Stuarts in the direct Royal line and offered the Crowns, (there are three of them), of the Kingdom of England to a minor Royal, Mary Of Orange who was married to William Of Orange. However, both the Dutch and English law was at that time the male partner in a marriage actually owned his wife and all her goods and chattels belonged to him.

      So Mary refused the offered crown as it would have made Billy her consort. The obvious reason Westminster had skipped over those 50 royals in the English royal line was because they were Roman Catholics. So the dark shadow of sectarianism was behind all this.

      So Westminster then made a decision that only slightly altered the status of English Sovereignty, (a.k.a. The divine right of Kings). They offered the crowns of the three countries that made up the Kingdom of England to Willian & Mary of Orange as equally joint monarchs.

      So Mary, born a Stuart, was in the direct line of descent but William was of the House of Orange so they claimed it was still a Stuart on the throne. However, they made the couple legally delegate their Devine Right, (sovereignty), to the Parliament of England and made the three country Kingdom of England into a Constitutional Monarchy but with the Monarchy still legally sovereign.

      It was, of course, a fudge and because the two British Kingdoms were still independent of each other it could not legally be applied to the Kingdom of Scotland. Scotland had, in any case, ended the sovereignty of the Monarchy 1320 by the Declaration of Arbroath.

      Which is exactly where your claim upthread comes in, “As long as we allow it”. Which is exactly what happened. The Westminster engineered the Darien Expedition, (with the aid the London Scot, William Patterson and the Dutch via the House of Orange). Scotland was not bankrupt but the land owning parliamentarians were. The Jacobites were being militarily exterminated and the, “Paircel o Rogues”, were being offered money, threatened and generally worked on by Westminster.

      So in spite of the people rioting in the streets against it the Treaty of Union was signed. In other words the Scots in power allowed it and they have done so ever since. Westminster has done exactly whatever Westminster wanted to do and there was not an organised majority of the legally sovereign people to oppose it – – until now.

      That is the simple truth that you claimed upthread:-

      “AS LONG AS WE ALLOW IT”, has probably already reached the point where a referendum will show we will no longer allow it. Why else did you think the three Westminster unionist parties are claiming, “No one in Scotland wants a referendum”, are claiming we need Westminster’s permission and going crazy with Brexit?

      They have MSPs in the EU who must know the lie of the land of the other EU member states. They want out for they know Scotland will get EU member state backing they did after all witness this:-

      he BBC and the SMSM never showed that – are we surprised?

    91. Meg merrilees says:

      dakk 12.11

      re the next PM / Rees Mogg – Davidson

      Rees Mogg knows this which is why he says he is not interested in the job.

      Mind you , my understanding is that Evel precludes the next PM being anything other than an MP of an English constituency – but despite her protestations, perhaps she will be selected for an English seat – or as has been stated before, if she went via the Lords then maybe that works out.

      Personally I think she keeps denying the interest because she also knows she would’t get to be PM.

      Suppose it ultimately depends what the Establishment and GCHQ wants.

    92. Robert Peffers says:

      Just in case no one has already posted a link here is the link to todays Indy support gathering:-

    93. Lenny Hartley says:

      Daisy Walker @ 12:22 according to a report I heard on Manx Radio the UK Govt will be implementing the EU tax avoidance bill whether its in or out of Europe. Aint seen anything else about that so dont know where Manx Radio got that from, however they are normally spot on regarding financial news.

    94. K1 says:

      Could I ask people to sign and spread this petition far and wide, here’s a wee segment of Mhairi’s speech in the HoC’s about how starving, evicting a stressing people doesn’t incentivise them to work:

      …and the petition itself, over 12,000 signatures so far…let’s give it Wings:

    95. yesindyref2 says:

      While non-SNP folks like WGD and McIntyre Kemp will offer intelligent opinion, they are far removed from the decision makers.

      Unless they’ve been asked to run interference, which is always a possibility.

    96. galamcennalath says:


      Actually, after I had posted, I thought “they are far removed from the decision makers” isn’t something I have any proof of, nor in insight into. I don’t know, do I?

      Even though they are not SNP members they are (like The Rev) highly influential within the cause. Perhaps they do all have ‘back channels’.

      We need a lang spoon tae sup wi the Deil.

    97. Fred says:

      No Wings stall in the Square today but Ronnie Anderson was aboot somewhere, good turn-out by the bikers! 🙂

    98. yesindyref2 says:

      I’d like to think they do, and do have behind the scenes plans going off.

    99. Dave McEwan Hill says:


      The bile against the Daily Record is presently well deserved but the stuff in the SUN from Chris Musson is continually much worse. The Sun is the biggest selling “newspaper” in Scotland

    100. ben madigan says:

      O/T it pains me to write this but I think Scots should know.
      Anecdotal evidence- I fully admit – but there’s a lesson somewhere in here

      At an international meeting yesterday, in the chit-chat at the coffee break 2 Americans were asked if Trump was going to be impeached
      Answers – No but he won’t be re-elected.
      Watch the mid-terms

      The Englishman was asked about Scottish independence
      Answer: Scotland’s a miserable place. We finance it from our central government.They’re nothing without us in Westminster.

      Irish person (not me) “I supported Scottish Independence until they voted “NO”. Now I don’t. Our irish independence was hard won and thank God we won it. The Scots couldn’t even vote right to get theirs”

      The Englishman was asked about brexit
      “We’re brexiting. Everything is up for discussion

      An Italian asked me “What are you so upset about? Scotland’s the UK’s problem – nothing to do with us, we’re EU member states

      two things emerged for me – 1) Scotland watch your back!
      2)if Scotland wants independence we have to take it, grasp it no matter what and make it ours

    101. ronnie anderson says:

      Fred there has not been a Wings stall at HOF/Solidarity since 2015 I was there on other business , that will be become apparent on 27th OCT at the Bbc Bias Protest , if there anything else I help you with don’t hesitate to ask .

    102. Robert J. Sutherland says:

      ben madigan @ 21:26,

      Many continentals are as ignorant about the Scots as are the English. Because we’ve been hidden behind the latter for 300 years. We’re even called generically “English”, as we all know.

      As for that Irish person, I can well understand the ready contempt, but s/he obviously doesn’t know their own history either. Pre-independence they had a shootout with the British for several years, and then a bloodbath among themselves for a few more. So much for a smooth transition with full consent.

      It’s amazing how some people have the benefit of hindsight and still can get it completely wrong!

    103. Robert Peffers says:

      @ben madigan says: 15 September, 2018 at 9:26 pm:

      ” … two things emerged for me – 1) Scotland watch your back!
      2)if Scotland wants independence we have to take it, grasp it no matter what and make it ours”

      Two things, Ben, First of all there is much support for Scotland in the actual EU Parliament – Watch this YouTube video and you will see it is indeed there but never reported in the United Kingdom media.

      It may also useful for Wingers to get to grips with another matter always misreported in the United Kingdom media to the extent that the vast majority of Scots don’t know what it is all about – The Scottish Claim of Right.

      There are several parts to this YouTube video of the debate.
      Here is the first part:-

      If you stick that link into your browser it should start the series and the other parts should follow on.

      Then there is this from Holyrood:-

    104. Robert J. Sutherland says:

      yesindyref2 @ 19:32,

      In which case, I hope the powers-that-be have all their real discussions on the subject in rooms with a radio playing and a tap running! =grin=

      Speaking personally, though, I dislike kite-flying. It makes us appear indecisive and unsure. Not at all a good look, especially for the undecided. (Look at the Tories by way of – bad – example.)

      And I really, really don’t like the notion that I’m being “played” by putative gaslighters. I hope we’re better than that.

    105. HYUFD says:

      Robert J Sutherland Most Scottish Unionists want to remain in the UK given England is Scotland’s largest export market and most also voted Remain and want to stay close to the EU in any post Brexit Deal given the EU is the UK’s largest export market

    106. Thepnr says:

      Fortunately we that support Independence don’t need to concern ourselves about what those that don’t live here might think. We only need concern ourselves about what our next door neighbour, our workmates, our brother or our mother might think.

      Those are the people we need to persuade to support Independence for Scotland not anyone else. Win enough of them over to achieve 50% plus 1 of all Scots and everything else thereafter will take care of itself.

    107. HYUFD says:

      HandandShrimp I think enough Labour Remainers and LDs will vote with May rather than Mogg and the ERG and the SNP will abstain to ensure she gets a Deal through even if Corbyn and the Labour leadership votes with Mogg against a Deal

    108. yesindyref2 says:

      @ben madigan
      My wife is Irish. The Irish said after the NO vote that Scotland and Scottish people have no balls. My wife said all through Indy Ref 1 that it would be a NO as Scotland had no balls. She voted YES even though she “knew” it was a waste of time. I was more optimistic – falsely that time.

      But you only have to look at what people are sayin “We can’t have another Ref until we’re sure of winning it, I couldn’t cope with losing again”. Oh, and “Look at Quebec”.

      Cobblers, we have one in say March, and if that fails we have one in 2024, and if that fails we have one in 2029 and if that fails we have another in 2034. And Scotland is NOT Quebec.

      Some of the people saying that now amaze me, and frighten me. Someone somewhere is getting to Indy supporters and making them fearty cats. Well someone should give them a scratching post – and some balls.

      In Ireland people died for Independence, shot as “tractors”. In Scotland all we have to do is put an X in the YES box.

    109. ben madigan says:

      Thanks for your reply Robert –
      the point is not how the irish got their independence – insurgency, deaths, hunger strikes, guerilla warfare, civil war etc.
      The point was that they got it, whatever the cost. And now have 26 allies in the EU to back them up.

      I do not, and never have, and never will, advocate insurgency for Scotland . . . .but Scotland needs to get her act together if we really want Independence.

      I do. I really do support scottish independence. I have made that quite clear since i started commenting on WOS.
      Call it an atavistic instinct if you want from one of Scotland’s diaspora

    110. HYUFD says:

      Robert Peffers Scotland has already had a referendum in 2014, they voted 55% to 45% to stay in the UK

    111. yesindyref2 says:

      The day I would really worry is if ever Sturgeon says it. So far she hasn’t put a foot wrong, while all around her people are tap-dancing to out of tune music. It’s a NO from Simon Cowell 🙂

    112. HYUFD says:

      Robert J Sutherland Of course if Home Rule for Ireland had passed and it had its own Parliament as Scotland does now the push for Irish independence may not have succeeded

    113. HYUFD says:

      Yesindyref2 Francophone Quebec had two referendums on whether to declare independence from English speaking Canada and become sovereign both of which required a majority by the Nationalist Parti Quebecois in the Quebec Parliament to be implemented, both were defeated, the second largely as Quebec got a devomax giving Quebec’s legislature more power than any other province’s legislature in Canada.

    114. Jason Smoothpiece says:

      Ben Madigan

      Indeed many Scots do not drag their balls around as a large number of Scots who are ball less drag their knuckles about …you know the folk.

      Can I say this?

      Sorry to the nice folks but I have partaken of booze.

    115. Thepnr says:


      Would you class Mahatma Ghandi, Nelson Mandela and Martin Luther King as being “fearty cats” in their struggles?

      Just trying to get a handle where you’re coming from.

    116. Sarah says:

      So many excellent commenters btl here on Wings. It is always an education and an inspiration to see the number and variety of people thinking about how to restore Scotland and end the subservience to a most unsatisfactory political construct.

    117. Daisy Walker says:

      Lenny Hartley says:
      15 September, 2018 at 7:28 pm
      Daisy Walker @ 12:22 according to a report I heard on Manx Radio the UK Govt will be implementing the EU tax avoidance bill whether its in or out of Europe. Aint seen anything else about that so dont know where Manx Radio got that from, however they are normally spot on regarding financial news.

      Hello Lenny.

      I get most of my info about Brexit/EU from – although the author of it does not entertain the view that its all about the 1% avoiding tax, and is in favour of leaving the EU (which I am not). He doesn’t sugar coat bad news however and I find his articles very informative.

      However, I went looking, given your comment, on the inter web and found this Brexit: Implications for Taxation

      Which is very detailed. The EU Withdrawl Bill means they UK courts are supreme, all EU laws are immediately converted into UK Laws, and then they can amend them or scrap them as they please. Likewise for the EU stated cases that they like, they can refer to them, even adhere to that ruling, but if they don’t like it they can ignore it as they please.

      With regards the Tax Avoidance Legislation (and I’ve only skim read it – so don’t hold me to it)… there are different implementation dates, for different parts.

      So in theory, a big chunk of it should kick in 1/1/19 – but it seems unlikely to be implemented/pursued, if we are out by 29/3/19. Other parts take effect Dec 2019, 2020,
      2024, etc.

      Without knowing details of the radio program you refer to, and what legislation they are quoting, it’s difficult to be more precise, with regards their contents.

      I’ll read the above article in more detail and see if I can get a better understanding of it.

      One aspect I do understand, the EU recognised that the problem was on such a large scale, it had to be tackled by the EU block as a whole, as individual countries alone did not have the reach.
      Although David Cameron signed up to the legislation to automatically share bank data – (tax havens were not exempt). They missed the date for submission and were ‘chastised’ by the EU, they were then given a time extension.
      The ‘British’ tax havens are second only to America for hiding money and have been doing so for a very, very long time.

      I’m not the Rev, so (fortunately/unfortunately) I haven’t kept the exact references for the above, except in my shaky auld noodle. Hope that’ll do the noo.

      Kind regards.

    118. Old Pete says:

      HYUFD why so anti-Scotland, do you actually live here? Do you think Scotland is a country not a region? Even with the continued propaganda against Scotland the support for Independence is not falling but growing. So what have you to offer us HYUFD ? He-haw like so many unionist anti-Scottish wind bags.

    119. Old Pete says:

      SKY pushing smiley, two-faced anti-Scot Ruth Davidson desperately wishing she could stand for UK leader of the Tories. Then moderate Labour folk would have someone they could vote for?
      We need out of the lunatic asylum UK and the quicker the better. Nicola the time draws nigh.

    120. Dave McEwan Hill says:

      HYUFD at 10.46

      Democracy is one vote forever?
      We don’t have regular elections?
      You are not allowed to change your mind?

      The only folk talking against another referendum is those who know YES will win it (like yourself).
      So transparently infantile.
      In the meantime you have just wandered on here thinking we are all stupid and imagining you’ve got some killer points to save the day.
      It’s known as the “London Times syndrome”. They think they know everything about the scruffy silly Jocks but in fact they know fuck all about us.
      As do you.

    121. Elmac says:

      Had some unionist leaning friends to stay for the weekend. In the past we have had many arguments but they steadfastly refuse to look beyond their noses despite my many efforts to get them to read this blog and others to get a different take on their diet of msm crap. What is particularly galling is that they are highly intelligent which only goes to prove the old adage “There are none so blind as those that will not see”. One glimmer of hope however – my pal volunteered to go for the rolls this morning and returned with a National for me. Mind you he still bought his shitty lying Express!

      I despair!

    122. remo says:

      @Old Pete

      Hyfud (spelling intentional) is an apparently deranged person of the Britnat/English Nationalist persuasion, who lives in Essex. He does not even have a horse in this Scottish Independence race. I have no idea why he/she/it thinks this site is anything to do with him/her/it. I suspect it is because he/she/it thinks we are “half-educated tenement-dwellers” like the famous Monty Python person allegedly said.

    123. Robert J. Sutherland says:

      haudonthenoo @ 18:48,

      I see what you mean. =grin=

      (I’m only human, though, and very occasionally just can’t resist an outburst of pure contempt.)

    124. Liz g says:

      Yesindyref2 @10.33
      I think you’re comparing apples and,em, we’ll grapefruits there Yesindyref2.
      Ireland was left with no real democratic route out from Westminster controll.
      The behaviour of the British Government in Ireland at that time was pure military oppression, and it wasn’t widely known about internationally.
      Even if it had been, it seems,that kind of behaviour from Governments was more acceptable to populations, back in the day!
      These days (and I think Westminster would love the excuse) Government violence is not perceived as a thing that governments are just allowed to do, to manage populations.
      They need to hide it and cover it up and our communications today make that almost impossible.
      Which in turn makes the democratic route possible.
      I don’t judge Ireland’s route to independence but we in Scotland can’t ,so far ,justify emulating it..
      So it really comes down to… different methods for different times.
      Most of the No voters I know just didn’t see the “need” back in 2014..
      Why cause all that disruption and create a few years of hardships for ourselves, for what?
      An ideology?
      For them they couldn’t see where this came from, the Country was just fine, they weren’t oppressed!
      Others (older) felt “well we’d been thgithir that long, there’s nay point in changing things noo !
      Fortunately none of them felt any loyalty to the British state… So it seems to me that they just need a good enough reason, one that they can see relates to them and they’ll move to Yes

    125. Elmac says:

      Hi Fud

      Getting near the end of your shift are you? Come independence you can crawl back under your establishment stone with the rest of your scum. In the meantime keep the laughs coming – we all like to be entertained.

    126. Lenny Hartley says:

      Daisy Walker, thanks for that, like many i thought that the EU anti tax avoidence legislation was what is behind brexit, that Manx Radio news report threw a curve ball, however found this tonight and its only in case there is a transitional agreement. So will probably be a temp bill and will be dropped once Brexit is completed.–uk-takes-steps-to-implement-eu-anti-tax-avoidance-directive

      I would think that the UK and its dominions are the World leaders at Tax evasion/avoidance. Having worked most of my working life for American Corporations I know how effective the IRS was at ensuring any US Citizen paid their taxes even through they were based outside the USA. Dont know if this was the same at Corporate level , that was way above my payscale, however I travelled extensively Internationally and most of the Oversea’s Base managers were Yanks and they all paid their taxes to the IRS.

    127. yesindyref2 says:

      No idea, I don’t know enough about any of them. But they’re all very different from Scotland, as is Quebec and Catalonia. Closest comparison is with Ireland, and that was basically a serious mistake by the “British” Government that got the people onside with Independence, before that most weren’t really fussed either way.

      Like I say, all we have to do is put an X in a box. And currently at least, there’s no limit to the number of times we can try that one.

      Support for Independence in 2012 was around 25%, varied from 28% down to apparently 21% though that was a fiddled interpretation. Without that Ref support would STILL be less than 50% whereas now, who really knows?

      I’ve said it all along, and same as I said earlier “The day I would really worry is if ever Sturgeon says it. So far she hasn’t put a foot wrong”. That hasn’t changed since the EU Ref was announced which changed the constitutional set up, a material change. Sturgeon’s saying nothing, while some around her are trying to put it off, and off until “We can win”. Well, we can win now just as much as we can in 2021, 2023 or 2028, maybe more so – many of us I think are getting tired.

    128. Robert J. Sutherland says:

      ben madigan @ 22:36,

      Well, there’s no getting away from it, Ben, in 2014 we had our own future in our hands and we (as a community) blew it. So it’s definitely one up for the Irish.

      We are a cautious lot. We sort-of funked devo back in 1979 (poison-pill notwithstanding) but finally came good with a better option in 1997.

      So there’s a fair chance that with the hard lessons in self-delusion that we have hopefully been learning these last 4 years, next time we will get it properly nailed. Even though indyref2 is right, we ain’t Quebec (and the UK ain’t Canada either).

      I just hope it won’t be long now. All this arm-twisting sit-down-and-suck-up-your-Brexshit-and-like-it is doing my head in. Years now of moronic self-harm on an industrial scale when we could just be quietly getting on with doing our own thing instead of being pushed around by a bunch of far-off uncaring political inadequates.

      I just desperately want to have a normal life again in a normal forward-looking country. Surely that’s not too much to ask?

    129. HYUFD says:

      Old Pete Support for independence remains around 45% in most polls and certainly including undecideds

    130. HYUFD says:

      Dave McEwan Hill Yes thought they would win it in 2014, they lost and if there is a Unionist majority in Holyrood in 2021 as is possible in polls, indyref2 could be off the agenda for the best part of a decade

    131. Chick McGregor says:


      ‘I seem to remember their was another with a Highlander trying to sit on a cludgie (Punch perhaps). Oh how they laughed, har, har.’

      Yep, and also Scots stereotypes begging from English stereotypes despite the fact that Scottish taxpayers from a country with no National Debt agreed to take on their share of the huge English National Debt at Union.

      And, even the one off compensation, which would in no way compensate Scottish taxpayers in the long run, was never paid in full, only about a third of it and that mostly in English bonds of dubious value rather than the gold promised.

    132. HYUFD says:

      remo I am a Unionist, if I was an English nationalist I would have voted Leave in the EU referendum (I voted Remain) and I would want England to break away from the UK and declare its own independence first

    133. Rock says:

      Talking about dead horses.

      Cautious Establishment lawyer Nicola spectacularly squandered a once in a 1000 years golden opportunity by wasting more than a year flogging a DEAD HORSE – a separate deal for Scotland which was never going to happen.

      Scotland would have been on the verge of independence now if Alex Salmond had been SNP leader at the time of the Brexit referendum instead of Nicola.

      Mark my words – Nicola is not going to call an independence referendum before Brexit has been completed and Scotland is at the mercy of Westminster.

    134. K1 says:

      For all those who haven’t had the absolute pleasure of ‘debating’ with HYFUD or whatever, he’s already declared ‘why’ he’s here:

      ‘HYUFD says:
      2 September, 2018 at 5:18 pm
      The Tories got a higher voteshare in 2017 across the UK than the SNP got in Scotland at the general election which really says it all.

      I will of course never apologise for having pressing the Unionist case hard, if you do not like that as a diehard Nationalist, tough.

      HYUFD says:
      2 September, 2018 at 5:24 pm
      I could of course not care less what anybody on this forum thinks, I came here to press the Unionist case hard and take on the Nationalists (and any party which puts National identity first is by definition Nationalist). Notice the brilliant Ruth Davidson by taking a tough hard approach to nationalists has seen her party’s vote surge, she is undoubtedly as tough a Unionist leader as Salmond was for Nationalists

      HYUFD says:
      2 September, 2018 at 5:29 pm
      You will no doubt whinge as ever about Scotland’s woes despite the fact it now has its own Parliament which decides most Scotgish domestic issues and representatives at Westminster too. The Tories have of course halved unemployment from 2010 and reduced the deficit too but that is a different matter however no doubt you will whinge about that too’


      He’s here to ‘destroy’ us ‘Nats’ and if you want a real insight into why it’s a complete waste of time even responding to him…it starts about here on the 19th of August, on ‘The Cereal Offenders’, thread. There is nothing you can say to him as his mind is made up and if you continue to read to the end of that thread…you’ll understand exactly who you are dealing with, it’s nothing but ‘rinse and repeat’, he’s no here to debate:

    135. remo says:

      @ HYFUD

      There is no such animal as a Unionist – only a Britnat. Why are you one of those?

    136. K1 says:

      I will be posting that exact comment @ 12:24 am every time someone ‘new’ engages with him fwiw, to avoid them wasting their efforts in engaging with such a mind.

      He’s here to disrupt, that’s not ‘my’ opinion, its his mission statement.

    137. K1 says:



    138. HYUFD says:

      Rock Sturgeon and May are the same type of character, cautious political pragmatists unlike the more passionate nationalist Salmond or passionate Brexiteer Boris

    139. Proud Cybernat says:

      Hi FUD,

      Clearly you’re not’getting’ it.

      As The Verve’ once famously said – “the drugs don’t work anymore.”

      You’re totally wasting your time here. Scotland has changed.

      Changed for good.

      Changed forever. We’re no’ goin’ back in your Unionist cage.

      You could say many of us have ‘seen the light’. Your Unionist Emperor has no clothes. You an shove your Spitfires and your Lancaster bombers where the sun don’t shine. Your Unionist jingoism – we see it. We clock.

      Now go away and RAM IT.

      Your precious, precious ‘Union’ is busted, buster. We see it now for the total crock of shit that it is. That you obviosuly don’t is to your detriment – but we cannot save everyone when the Brexshit hits the fan.

      Now – run along now. Chop chop. And mind the swing of the door doesn’t smack you on the arse on the way oot.

    140. Meg merrilees says:

      Try not to see the front page of the Sunday Times.

      Ms. Davidson is again courting the media, denying she is interested in becoming PM – front page headline this time plus photo – she certainly knows how to do PR.

      Carefully control any exposure to the media, then you can can get them to print anything and they’ll not ask you anything difficult.

      They really are desperate to have her in the news.

      Methinks the lady doth protest too much.

    141. Thepnr says:

      There once was a speedy hare who bragged about how fast he could run. Tired of hearing him boast, Slow and Steady, the tortoise, challenged him to a race. All the animals in the forest gathered to watch…

    142. Graf Midgehunter says:


      Saw this on the Rev’s Twitter:

      “Look closely and the Spitfire is sponsored by a German watch company. Splendid.”
      “The aircraft in this photo has IWC Schaffhausen written on it.”
      Maybe I’m just pissed off with the Brit. Nat. crap or geography is missing from schools nowadays, but..

      IWC is a leading SWISS watchmaker in Schaffhausen which is in SWITZERLAND.

      It’s on the north side of the Rhine surrounded by Germany on three sides.

      The Rhine Falls where Sherlock and Moriarty fought to the “death” is nearby.

      So fck Stukas, Spitfires and Liam Fox and the rest of the Westminster swamp.

    143. Liz g says:

      And to add to what K1 @ 12.24 said!
      HYFUD lives in the South East of England and doesn’t have a vote in Scotland.
      His support for the Union is likely to try to keep Scotland’s resources flowing to the part of England that steals the most…typical…
      Of course he likes the Union,he dose very well out of it!

      He just makes statements…doesn’t debate…so don’t give a platform,he can support his greed for Scottish stuff from somewhere else that isn’t the biggest most read Indy site.

    144. Robert J. Sutherland says:

      Thepnr @ 00:44,

      I think the real moral of that story is not so much “slow and steady beats fast and mouthy”, but “don’t go to sleep on the job”. =laugh=

    145. Cubby says:

      The Britnats that pollute wings are just paid to troll moronic Britnats that obviously post a lot of nonsense to tempt people to engage. The crap they post is not worth a moment of anyone’s time just ignore them.

      They are a bunch of saddos.

    146. Dr Jim says:

      Like King Canutes the Brits hold up their hands in defiance of the oncoming tidal wave in sure and confident stupidity that it all won’t happen, then when it does will still look for someone else to blame or persecute for their own lack of ability to add up

      Brains are for wimps, reversing stupidity is for losers in Britnat world

      The only unfortunate thing about all of it is when it’s all over the rest of us normal people will still have to put up with these idiots till the next time they do something else dumb and that’s the trouble with the loyal Britnat they seem unable to learn and adapt, personally I think it’s probably an evolutionary thing, except these Bastirts won’t die off quick enough until they’ve fulfilled their mission of Buggering up the world

      Which our species will have to fix all over again

      All the best brains in the world spend their time inventing ways of improving life on earth and the unevolved Britnats and Trump types look for ways to employ these inventions for destroying it

      If Michael Rennie arrived in a spaceship with a big robot called Gort telling them he represented an intergalactic police force and they’d wipe out all human life on the planet if they didn’t behave themselves they’d still have the stupidity to argue and start a fight about it

    147. Dr Jim says:

      Written out of history the Polish pilots who won the Battle of Britain, Oh and the Canadians eh the Australians, there were Scots too, apparently loads more of everybody else from around the world but we never hear of those guys do we it’s all stiff upper lipped English chaps with scarves and moustaches, except that’s not true either, and the women pilots who flew those planes back and forth to the front lines, nary a word about the girls eh

      What an appalling set of people the English ruling classes consistently are, Gurkhas! remember those guys they didn’t even want to acknowledge them at all and definitely didn’t want to pay them the pensions they were owed because that’s a recognition they existed and we jolly well can’t have that old bean can we now

    148. ben madigan says:

      @Robert J. Sutherland:

      Thanks for your kind reply Robert. I’m sure all Scots nats feel like you do – even though “we are a cautious lot”.
      Sorta frustrated, impotent, can’t move forward, can’t step backward etc.
      Caught between PM May’s “Now is not the time” and FM Sturgeon’s “wait and watch policy”

      I wasn’t alive at the turn of the 20th century when the movement for Irish independence took off (I was born well after WW2) – but I do know the republican movement of the time involved all levels of society – professions, cultural clubs, sporting associations, trades Unions, workers and so forth.
      I have the feeling then Scottish independence movement is doing the same – reaching out to everyone

      I share your hope that IndyRef2 won’t be long now. As you realise all this “arm-twisting sit-down-and-suck-up-your-Brexshit-and-like-it” is designed to do your head in. (And everyone else’s at the same time!)

      I send my best wishes to all of Scotland to have a normal life again in a normal forward-looking country.
      It really isn’t too much to ask for.

      indeed, I would say it is the minimum and Scotland deserves much more. Like ireland, it deserves to take its place among the “nations of the world” or at the very least , the EU.

    149. dakk says:

      Dr Jim

      ‘If Michael Rennie arrived in a spaceship with a big robot called Gort telling them he represented an intergalactic police force’

      Maybe his bastard son Wullie would take on the gig and save us all.

      Aye,mibbee not.

      See ye’s a’ in hell.

    150. sandy says:

      HI FUD.

      Are you paying your neighbour’s mortgage? Perhaps you even paid his/her deposit. How benevolent of you, ffin idiot.

    151. yesindyref2 says:

      Refound a link – a thread pointed to by Kirsty Hughes to give it gravitas:

      in answer to a question: “Serious question for you Steve, if an #indyref2 were successful, what barriers would you see to Scottish accession ?”

      as it says on Steve Bullock’s twitter:

      “Immigrant, Musician, Sound Engineer, ex-negotiator for UK in EU, Brexit geek for Alyn Smith MEP (views mine, not his), anti-Brexit campaigner, CakeWatch co-host”

      and this is interesting:

      (with a UK Brexit transition) “That could then give breathing space for accession negotiations. The q is though whether EU27 would or could negotiate when an indyref had been won, but before Scotland actually became independent 3/”

      I’d say the EU can pretty well do whatever it wants, though it would be better I think if after any Brexit deal was sorted but before ratification, Indy Ref 2 was called, so that the EU-27 could, if it wanted, be ready and perhaps make a “small” change to the Brexit deal to cater for a YES – i.e. to allow Scotland to negotiate accession and/or our own transition arrangement while still part of the UK and the UK still the member of the EU. A transition would then take place a millisecond after the end of the UK’s transition where it becomes a third country as it calls a non-member (Norway is a third country to the EU too, even though part of EFTA / EEA).

      In theory Scotland might be out for a milli-second to observe the Treaties, and not a member but enjoying transitory benefits – and the freedoms.

      I do think it would need a referendum in Scotland to agree to “transit” in the EU prior to actual accession. Or indeed choose to go the EFTA / EEA route, with a similar transition in SM and even CU.

      I suspect Sturgeon has sussed this all out, she was very active in Europe and then suddenly everthing went quiet.

      It’s all quiet on the Western fromt! Too quiet …

    152. Dave McEwan Hill says:

      HYUFD at 12.11

      Do keep up,please. Polls have support for independence presently between 46% and 52%. This is without an independence campaign of any sort. The last campaign started at around 28%.

      In polls there is a significant majority for independence in all age ranges right up to 55 years of age and over and a significant majority for the union only at 60 years and older.

      The “surge ” in votes for Ruthie and her bizarre team you describe has the Tories in Scotland at about 24% – lower than Mrs Thatchers lowest position in Scotland.

      Of course the relentless promotion of Ruth Davidson for about four years across all the media in Scotland (in parallel with relentless demonisation of the SNP and Nicola Sturgeon) means that some folk in England actually believe that the Tories “won” the election in Scotland. The SNP actually has more MPs than all the others put together. I thought you should know that.

      Polls actually show the Tories now losing back six of the seats they won in Scotland at that “snap” election last year and Labour losing back all but one of their gains.

      In my area of Scotland about one adult voter in every twenty is now a member of the SNP.

      You appear to be an articulate and thoughtful sort of person. If you have any spare brain capacity could you share some with Annie Wells.

      Now,go away

    153. Breeks says:

      ben madigan says:
      15 September, 2018 at 9:26 pm
      O/T it pains me to write this but I think Scots should know.
      Anecdotal evidence- I fully admit – but there’s a lesson somewhere in here…

      Pains me to read it Ben, but I think the European attitude towards a timid and gutless Scotland which won’t fight for its EU Membership is on the money.
      I keep saying it, but once Barnier puts the Brexit “closure” proposals before the member states for ratification, Scotland will never persuade them to renegotiate Scotland’s “Johnny-come-lately” exceptional-case position. They may take an interest in our fate, but that fate will be seen as an issue of internal British domestic affairs, as Scotland’s prosperity, freedom and sovereignty is carpetbombed with frantic British Fascism. Europe will have washed it’s hands of us.

      This will be a catastrophe, but I believe it’s the pitiful trajectory we are on. If this is allowed to happen, I’m going to be so unbelievably fkn angry about it… and not just with the BritNats… What the FECK is going on at Bute House?

    154. Luigi says:

      Meg merrilees says:
      16 September, 2018 at 12:43 am
      Try not to see the front page of the Sunday Times.
      Ms. Davidson is again courting the media, denying she is interested in becoming PM – front page headline this time plus photo – she certainly knows how to do PR.

      Ruthie will never be PM. She is not daft. However, what people seem to be missing is the sudden build-up of Scottish Office resources in Edinburgh. IMO this is the back-up plan if Brexit goes pear-shaped (now a real possibility) – using the chaos as an excuse, Holyrood is neutered and an all-powerful Scottish Office runs the show. Now think for a minute who becomes governor general? Who becomes the Saviour Queen of Scotland?

      Yep, you got it – wee Ruthie!

      Of course she either has to be parachuted into a safe tory seat as an MP or is given a seat in the HoL. Do you think for a moment that the incompetent Mundale would be left in charge of Scotland? Even the tories are not that daft. 🙂

      Of course, the preferred tory option is for a Chequers fudge or a Blind Brexit can-kicker, which would also seriously reduce momentum for another IndyRef.

      This, Breeks, is why we still have to wait a while (not much longer). So many possible outcomes, each requiring a different response. This is 3-dimensional chess. At present, it seems all quiet on the western front, but don’t think that big manouvers are not happening under the surface. Between now and November is crucial (but alas still unknown). Wait until we see the whites of their eyes.:)

    155. Iain mhor says:

      Yaaay! Did not disappoint after all.
      @Rock @12:21am
      A bit late though, I waited ages and fell asleep.

    156. One_Scot says:

      ‘Support for independence remains around 45%’

      You’re flogging a dead horse, ya fud.

    157. Iain says:

      All the unionist panic is understandable.
      The thought of England standing on its own two feet is horrifyingly loming.
      Where will they get funds to run their country from?
      It is very unlikely that a free Scotland is going to continue to massively subsidise the English economy.
      Their panic is justified.
      We are on the way to freedom.

    158. Dave McEwan Hill says:

      Breeks at 6.36

      Utter rubbish. The notion that the expansionist EU would block the entry to the EU of the country with most of Europe’s oil, most of its fishing waters and a strategic command of the North Atlantic is absurd. It will allow immediate re-entry if not continuous membership.
      The central tenet of the EU’s construction that it does not interfere in the internal affairs member states precludes it from saying anything on the matter at this point.

    159. Robert Peffers says:

      @HYUFD says: 16 September, 2018 at 12:09 am:

      ” … Old Pete Support for independence remains around 45% in most polls and certainly including undecideds.”

      No one in their right mind takes opinion polls seriously. There is no such thing as a random selection survey.

      Why are you attempting to use these fake polls as a propaganda tool? If opinion polls were accurate why would the Westminster Establishment not use them to choose the Westminster Parliament members?

      You are full of unionist propaganda – you blether absolute pish.

    160. Robert Peffers says:

      @HYUFD says: 16 September, 2018 at 12:11 amL

      ” … indyref2 could be off the agenda for the best part of a decade.”

      Utter pish! I’ve been supporting Scottish independence since I was a schoolboy in 1946. They were telling us back then that independence was dead. It isn’t and it will only go away as a unionist nightmare after it is achieved.

      I’ll put that another way for you – we tell you when indy is off the table – you don’t tell us. We, the people of Scotland, are legally sovereign, when we decide the union is over we do not ask your permission, we tell you that we have decided we no longer are under Westminster rule and your Supreme Court recently backed off from attempting to tell us they are our sovereign masters.

      They knew they were on the point of overstepping their claimed authority so did not press the matter. The end of the union is drawing closer by the day.

      You know it too – which is why you are here on Wings attempting to fight a rear-guard action that is doomed to fail. The union is over in all but name Westminster is in total disarray and failing fast.

      “Nothing is more powerful than an idea whose time has come.”

      ? Victor Hugo

    161. Dr Jim says:

      @Dave McEwan Hill 8.39am

      Yep I’ve been saying for the last two years when the last signed sealed signature seals the final deal on the Great British Brexit corporation Bute House will become a busy place with all these nice foreign folk from Europe turning up with gifts of Gold Frankinsense and Myrrh to the howls of bitterness from Britnat world and the *who does Sturgeon think she is* newspaper headlines

      They think it’s all over…….Nuh uh!

    162. Gfaetheblock says:

      Breaks @ 6.36

      Agree with you here. There is a scenario that goes:

      Hard brexit
      Independence out of EU
      Meet criteria to join EU, without UK opt outs

      This would mean a we would be in Europe with worst conditions that we have currently, but with snignificant barriers to trade with England (due to hard brexit) or out of UK and EU, which would e a nightmare position for the economy.

      Worst of both worlds.

    163. HYUFD says:

      Proud Cybernat Nationalists said exactly the same in 2014 and yet Scots voted 55% to 45% to stay in the UK on an over 80% turnout

    164. HYUFD says:

      LizG I work in London, the second biggest financial centre in the world after New York and a global centre of IT and tech, law and culture, the idea London and the South East of England relies on Scottish resources is laughable. Your claim the Scottish economy is built on toil and sweat is also largely rubbish, indeed 75% of the Scottish economy is in the services sector, not much different to England

    165. HYUFD says:

      Dave McEwan Hill Yougov even had Yes on 52% just a fortnight before the 2014 referendum, Yes ended up on 45%, you cannot predict anything with certainty from polls but what we do know is when the actual votes were counted 55% of Scots in 2014 voted No to independence. Plus of course if the Tories plus Labour plus LDs have more MSPs than the SNP and Greens at Holyrood that is a Unionist majority

    166. Valerie says:

      Was watching the Sky news paper reviews last night, the reviewers had a minute’s mourning for the loss of Davidson as their PM.

      It was Christina Patterson and Matthew Syed, not the biggest nutters, but quite right leaning, and defo Unionist.

      Davidson’s media construct does work very well. These two loved her, lots of adjectives like sensible, very brave, intelligent. So very dejected she won’t be PM.

      I’m sure Davidson is just angling for a safe seat atm. By saying she is no threat for PM, it’s a nice telegraph to the Mogg contingent she will be good lobby fodder.

      She may also be a bit worried about Dark Money, because Jo Moylon, the Good Law Project was very pleased they have proven the Electoral Commission have erred. He tweeted last night, they are going for the DUP next.

    167. HYUFD says:

      Robert Peffers Nationalists like you think the Union is over obviously as 2014 proved you constitute 45% of Scots, 55% of Scots voted to stay in the UK. However the point I was making is if Unionist parties win more seats than Nationalist parties at the 2021 Holyrood elections then obviously there will be no indyref2 for at least a further 5 years as there will be no majority for it at Holyrood

    168. sassenach says:

      Just caught some of Radio Scotland, paper reviews, and I’m sure it was Cleggie doing his usual praising of Ruthie and then going straight into Alec Salmond’s police investigation. Same old Clegg!!

    169. Luigi says:

      Robert Peffers says:
      16 September, 2018 at 9:11 am

      “Nothing is more powerful than an idea whose time has come.”

      If you look at massive political upheavals in History, permanent changes more often than not come about from a series of waves, rather than from a single big event (cataclysmic as some events can be). And so it is with Scottish Independence and the breakup of the union. Of course it never runs smoothly, but the overall trend of increasing power and frequency of these waves continues until they wash over the establishment institutions designed to thwart them and the dam eventually crumbles.

      That’s the thing about dams – they all leak and all burst eventually. And Establishment Dams are no different from all the other types. What we cannot predict accurately is when the seriously propped-up UK dam will burst. It has been leaking badly since 2007, and now it is creaking and groaning loudly under the constitutional pressure being applied. Surely, it cannot hold for much longer. 🙂

    170. sassenach says:

      From the vastly increased output of ‘fud’, etc, it does indicate there is a distinct smell of great fear around Britnats.

    171. Clootie says:

      …please stop engaging with HYFUD…ignore trolls.

    172. haudonthenoo says:

      Highly intelligent and Express reader in the same sentence?

      Nah don’t think so.

    173. Robert Peffers says:

      @HYUFD says: 16 September, 2018 at 12:14 am:

      ” … remo I am a Unionist,” Yeah! We noticed.

      ” … if I was an English nationalist”

      What do you mean, “IF”, you were an English Nationalist?

      Being a unionist is exactly the same thing as being an English nationalist because the unionist mantra is the belief that the entity titled “The United Kingdom”, which literally describes a bipartite kingdom, is really a united country and that England is that country. Which is why there has been no, elected as such parliament of England since 30 April 1707. It is also why Westminster introduced EVEL and why the so called United Kingdom is partitioned along the lines of four countries where the actual union is legally between only two kingdoms and is thus legally a Kingdom and not a country.

      ” … I would have voted Leave in the EU referendum (I voted Remain) and I would want England to break away from the UK and declare its own independence first.”

      As already pointed out to you, you are really guilty of confused thinking.

      The United Kingdom is legally exactly what its title describes it as – a united kingdom with only two signatory member kingdoms as its component parts.

      It is not a quadratic union of four countries that form a united country and even if it were it would not be England. In 1603 it was the King of Scots who, (under the English Kingdoms then rule of law, (The Divine Right of Kings), inherited the three crowns of the Kingdom of England.

      These are, the Crown of the Kingdom of England, The crown of the Princedom of Wales and the crown of the Kingdom of Ireland all annexed under Divine Right of Kings by the English Monarchy before 1603. So under English law, still extant in 1603, the Kingdom of Scotland should have, legally under English law annexed the three Kingdom of England crowns. This did not happen and the so called Union of the Crowns of 1603 was thus only a personal union for the Scottish/English Monarch.

      Thus the United Kingdom Union was only instigated by the 1706/7 Treaty of Union and is a bipartite union of equally sovereign Kingdoms. It is not being run as such and that is illegal. Westminster is the de facto parliament of the country of England devolving English powers to Scotland, Wales and N.I. but illegally claiming to be The United 1kingdom Parliament.

      Their status could not be found legal if challenged in a court of law and the recent Supreme Court ruling, or rather the lack of such ruling, proves that point.

      Thus the Supreme court has upheld the truth that the people of Scotland are legally sovereign by refusing to rule against it. That being so – when, not if, another independence referendum decides that the union has ended then it legally has ended and here isn’t a thing Westminster can legally do about it.

    174. Breeks says:

      Dave McEwan Hill says:
      16 September, 2018 at 8:39 am
      Breeks at 6.36

      Utter rubbish. The notion that the expansionist EU would block the entry to the EU of the country with most of Europe’s oil….

      Go back and read what I actually said, not what you want me to have said.

      You speak as a defeatist who has already conceded Scotland will be Brexited, our economy shafted, our Sovereignty subjugated, our EU citizen birthright removed, and every democratic, sovereign triple locked mandate to stand and fight for our Constitutional Sovereignty and our place in Europe utterly squandered.

      You expect me to be cheerful that re-entry will be a breeze? What an abject betrayal of all those voters to gave the SNP a mandate to defend Scotland’s constition, not just the SNP seats in Parliament.

      To paraphrase a Tory Harold MacMillan, “We never had it so good”. We have never had such unprecedented synergy between Pro-Independent factors like a democratic sovereign Constitutional mandate to stay in Europe, and anti-Union factors like a deluded, xenophobic vampire of a Tory Government forcing the UK economy into catastrophic free-fall, yet despite this cacophony of compelling arguments, instead of riding our good fortune and building momentum, we sit naval gazing in timid indolence waiting for things to improve and a Independence majority to create itself all on its own initiative.

      I’m repeating myself, as it seems I always do these days, that people here ridicule Corbyn for his inability to outscore the Tories when the the Tories are tearing themselves apart. If he can’t make progress now, when will he ever? Funny. I feel exactly the same about the SNP. If they cannot make the case for Independence now, when the Union hangs by a merest thread, then actually, when can they?

    175. @Luigi

      This is from Parliament web site,

      Ministerial appointments:

      `In theory a Government minister does not have to be a member of either House of Parliament.`

      although convention is that ministers must be members of either the House of Commons or House of Lords in order to be accountable to Parliament,

      British Nationalist Alec Douglas-Home was Prime Minister when he was neither in the Lords or an MP,

      Ruthie could theoretically be parachuted into any Government position the establishment wanted her.

    176. Dr Jim says:

      Very early in the morning for British nationalist types to be getting out of their beds to screech at us proper Scots folks

      There must be something up

    177. Mark Fletcher says:

      I love a good troll on this site. They are like political anti-matter.I need to be reminded every now and again that such weirdness exists.

      If half – or even just about half – of the electorate support independence, the Union is in its death throws and the rest is process.

      Arguments pro-Union aren’t made and can’t be made.

      Scotland will be a very wealthy and influential country once it gets rid of the leaden influence of its greedy southern neighbour.

    178. Luigi says:

      Robert Peffers says:
      16 September, 2018 at 9:50 am
      @HYUFD says: 16 September, 2018 at 12:14 am:
      ” … remo I am a Unionist,” Yeah! We noticed.
      ” … if I was an English nationalist”
      What do you mean, “IF”, you were an English Nationalist?

      Ouch! Well said, Robert. These British/English Nationalist clowns have hidden behind the respectability cloak of “unionism” for long enough. It’s time they were all outed and forced to defend their true identities.

      There is no “union”. Therefore there can be no genuine unionists. If they are ashamed to admit they are British nationalists, too bad, but don’t allow them the respectability of being true unionists, which they most certainly are not. For the tories, it’s a convenient deception. For Labour, it’s this and more – a sort of self denial (“nationalist” being such an evil word they cannot cope with their true position).

      Accepting their preferred unionist identity gives them a perception of respectability they don’t deserve. Time to call them all out for what they really are – British Nationalists

    179. HYUFD says:

      Dave McEwan Hill Young people always become more conservative as they get older e.g. the Tories have not won 18 to 24 year olds since 1983 and the pensioners who voted Leave voted for the Common Market in 1975

    180. Shinty says:

      Reading that Nicola is not going to make any announcement on indyref at October conference. Fine, she will have her reasons.
      (ie Brexit final deal not known)

      However, whether it’s no deal, soft deal or blind deal. Scotland is still being taken out of the EU against the will of the people.

      So why am I wrong in believing she has to use the mandate before 29th March,and not between now and 2021 (next Holyrood election)

      If there is another GE before 29th March, you can guarantee there will be far more ‘dark money’ floating around Scotland to ensure a lot more SNP MP’s loose their seats at WM. This will then be triumphed as ‘no appetite for indyref’ ad nauseam.

      I do fear if we delay, many in the indy camp will feel deflated and the momentum will be lost.

      My own position, I will never give up, but I fear that many will. Very happy to be proved wrong.

    181. HYUFD says:

      Robert Peffers Westminster is the UK Parliament it is not an English Parliament. 79% of those who saw themselves as English not British voted Leave in the EU referendum and 60% of those who saw themselves as British not English voted Remain

    182. Bill McLean says:

      Breeks at 9.51. Unhappily and worryingly I agree totally with the last sentence of your post!

    183. sassenach says:

      Dr Jim says@ 10-10

      Agree entirely, the tick tock is getting louder every day.

      In fact fud et al are merely weathercocks that tell us we are on the right track. Was it Diana Ross who sang “Scroll on by”??

    184. Legerwood says:

      Luigi says:
      16 September, 2018 at 7:58 am
      Meg merrilees says:
      16 September, 2018 at 12:43 am
      Try not to see the front page of the Sunday Times.
      Ms. Davidson is again courting the media, denying she is interested in becoming PM – front page headline this time plus photo – she certainly knows how to do PR.


      Better avoid The Guardian and The Herald as well then. Seems her PR people have been working overtime this weekend. Anything to avoid talking about actual policies eh!

    185. galamcennalath says:

      Joanna Cherry writes …

      ” There is a serious chance of a deal by mid-November involving the UK backing down on the Northern Irish backstop and a fudged political declaration regarding the future relationship.

      It is unlikely to be acceptable to the DUP or the ERG. Labour want a general election so most of them will vote it down and there are no circumstances in which the SNP could support a deal which takes Scotland out of the single market and the customs union, so we will also vote against.

      In the event that Westminster rejects the deal, we must have a position on what should happen next.

      The options would likely be a People’s Vote or a general election. If it’s full steam ahead to a no-deal Brexit or if Westminster votes to accept the deal, Brexit will happen, and in that event, we have to decide when to hold the independence referendum for which we have a mandate. “

      That all sounds about right. All possible outcomes covered, I think.

    186. yesindyref2 says:

      @Mark Fletcher
      It’s funny watching. So far the most positive thing he / she / it has had to say is that our football team is rubbish.

      So much for the positive case for the Union.

    187. Socrates MacSporran says:

      “Hy Fud @ 10.2am” – Your paymasters at Brigade 77, or whatever department at GCHQ you are based at obviously didn’t brief you well enough.

      Auld Bob has been making the case on here for ever – it might label itself the UK Parliament, but, in reality, Westminster is the Parliament of England, which claimes Scotland as a colony.

      If you are going to be on here regularly, or for as long attempting to talk-up keepint this dysfunctional UK together, to the detriment of Scotland – then at least get with the program Bud.

      Awa an’ bile yer heid ya fanny.

    188. Liz g says:

      Dr Jim @ 10.10
      Aye Dr Jim… They are terrified that London and the southeast will have to pay for all the new projects by themselves,instead of using Scotland’s resources.
      They have HS2, Westminster Renovations, Buckingham Palace, Renovations, and a new airport runway that they want to use Scotland’s money for!
      I’m sure I’ve left a thing or two out,but all the big ticket projects Scotland bank rolls are always in London.
      Everyone can see Norway’s oil money in it’s oil fund,but if you want to see Scottish oil money, ye have to visit London.
      It’s easy to get to … Ye just drive down the lovely new motorways we funded as well.
      England since it’s inception has never stood on it’s own to feet without stealing the resources of other Countries.
      I think they are panicked about loosing ours.

    189. Dr Jim says:

      The medias love adulation and elevation for Ruth Davidson has gone to the mentally irregular level now with sneering Tories on Marr informing us of how *hugely* popular this woman is, who by the way doesn’t want to be PM because of her mental health problems but she’ll do the FMs job because it’s only Scotland eh, so much less important

      There in a nutshell is this appalling woman who posseses no soul or rightness in her character and as to popularity she’s not even the most popular Tory in the Tory party in Scotland amongst a party of absolute genius’s it has to be said

      There she sits at the top of her party surrounded by a hefty array of talent, Annie Wells, Jamie Greene, Murdo (queens 11) Fraser and to top them off her deputy (this cars a goodun) Jackson Carlaw

      What planet are these folk in England on in their efforts to promote what is and outrageous liar and fraudster and even her own electorate know it but they don’t care as long as she shouts at the SNP for them, which is another issue, if the SNP were NOT in power half of Ruth Davidsons vote would vanish overnight because half of the Tory vote is anti SNP not pro Tory so her Rangers supporting nut jobs and Orange Lodge vote would be gone and they’d all vote for a Labour Numpty instead

      Get over yourselves Britnat media it’s never gonna happen because she’s a prizewinning charlatan and Numpty of the year title holder

      I hope there are some NO voters out there reading some of this stuff and realising what’s important here when they listen to programmes like Marr, England does not listen to a word Scotland says, they just make up stuff and say that’s what we say

      Do you enjoy being a nobody?

    190. Bob Mack says:

      Just a reminder that the Services sector provides most revenue to practically every country. Do they work hard ?

      Ask the men who drill for your gas,who build lies for your electricity, who provide pipes and safety for your water. Health,hotels. All come under services like many others, all providing us with essential needs of life,and most work damned hard to do so.

      The difference is that Scotland provides most of the gas we use but only receives an eight share of revenues derived.There are plenty other examples.

      Who gets the rest I wonder? England is and always has been a parasitic State. It fed on the wealth of others for centuries and continues to do so even today.

      Time to remove the tick.

    191. Liz g says:

      Mark Flecher @ 10.14
      I can see what yer sayin Mark but this one is no very good.
      Although it dose infact demonstrate what I was sayin before..
      That all London and the Southeast do is use Scotland’s resources.
      In his attempt to “promote” his Union..
      He has to piggyback on to a Scottish Indy website..
      Doesn’t “do” the Conservative thing (allegedly) and set up his own blogg, make it wildly successful and make his case..
      Naw he needs to use Rev stu’s blogg and readership to get any of his views out there..
      Just like I have said,London needed to use Scottish resources and cannot develop their own!

    192. Daisy Walker says:

      @Lenny Hartley says:
      15 September, 2018 at 11:49 pm
      ‘Daisy Walker, thanks for that, like many i thought that the EU anti tax avoidence legislation was what is behind brexit, that Manx Radio news report threw a curve ball, however found this tonight and its only in case there is a transitional agreement. So will probably be a temp bill and will be dropped once Brexit is completed.–uk-takes-steps-to-implement-eu-anti-tax-avoidance-directive‘.

      Thanks Lenny – some heavy reading, but interesting. Looks as if the EU were / are very aware that this is a big negotiating lever.

      The staggered implementation dates, and the ‘heads we win, tails you lose’ ‘we can make it up as we go along’, ‘lets keep the bits we like, when we like them and bin the rest’
      legislation of the EU Withdrawl Bill make it look like any ‘journalist’ with an angle could muddy the waters at length and call black white for a long time.

      I’m still grappling with the details, and it will take quite a few more reads before I understand it, but most definitely ‘if’ the UK decides to implement the Anti Tax Avoidance Laws – it can drop them at any time.

      While the implementation date is 1/1/19, ‘collection dates’ for want of a better term are staggered till later in the year for some parts, then 2020, and 2024 for other parts.

      The report I referred to before anticipates the law being fully in force through any transition period, but thinks it unlikely the UK will enforce the legisilation from between 1/1/19 and 29/3/19 if we come out of EU with no deal.

      Without the ECJ to oversee proceedings, Westminster will be ‘policing’ itself with regards enforcing these tax laws. Hmmm.

      More info, if your interested

      Oh to have a look at the Panama Papers and then have someone in the House of Commons name and shame all those within who have a clear conflict of interest and are away to wreck the UK’s economy for generations.

      What an absolute shower of bastards.

      One thing though, has anyone considered how, if Scotland remains in the EU with the tax avoidance laws in place, how that would affect our country? Some very, very, wealthy Londonites might just find their little 40,000 acre estate of ‘leibensraum’ in the Heilands of Bonny Scotchland just became extremely expensive.

      Now isn’t that a cheerie wee thought for a dreich Sunday morning.



    193. Gary45% says:

      Liz g@10.48 and Dr Jim@10.49
      Nicely put by the pair of you.

    194. ScottishPsyche says:

      Does anyone remember Kirsty Blackman getting the fawning adulation Davidson is now receiving? Kirsty is someone who actually deals with the reality of depression, Westminster and a young family. A tory colleague of Davidson, Andrea Leadsom, has been heard to comment that all working mothers in Westminster are in the same boat. Really? REALLY?

      However, Davidson is to be commended for making clear her limitations and frailties and the voting public can, therefore, make their own minds up. One has to wonder how someone with an ordinary degree in English, no discernible output from 8-9 years in journalism managed to become Tory leader a year or so after getting to Holyrood. A remarkable person indeed and one who has the luxury of drip feeding the press stories about herself in her own way at her own time. I suspect Davidson’s past is well known among the protective press pack. Also, would such allowances would be made for anyone else?

      Is this why she is given such an easy ride by the press? By her own admission, she fears that competing demands on her life will impact her mental health. Is this really someone able to cope with being FM or if she were to become FM would the job be so downgraded that she has little or no responsibility?

      Ruth Davidson has done us all a favour. This latest stage managed statement of intent makes quite clear that it is not her mental health that limits her ambition or ability, it is pure political opportunism.

      Mental ill-health blights the lives of so many directly due to Tory policies. Were that all mothers to be allowed to opt out in the way Davidson can.

    195. Abulhaq says:

      London’s importance is also a matter of personal perspective. People living in south east quandrant of England rarely concern themselves with provincial matters, unless the matters are pushed forcefully in the face.
      Admittedly there is a considerable amount of power, soft and hard, consolidated in London but at the expense of the largely quiescent ‘rest’. Scotland which is effectively a stateless nation, having all the trappings of a state but not the powers, might well be London’s nemesis.
      A few years ago Chatham House reported on the effect that an independent Scottish state might have on the rUK. It was a warning to those who hubristically believed it would make no difference.
      Unfortunately, the latter belief still circulates in certain quarters.
      However, if Scotland is a liability, a country of whinging parasites à la English Daily Mail why the pathological fear of Scotland dissolving the Union; loss of face, loss of prestige, loss of resources, loss of revenue?
      An independent Scotland would also be a political unknown. That it might move in directions at variance with that of any Westminster government is a concern. Anglo-Scottish history is an object lesson in different worldviews.
      Brexit muddles the mix too and according to polls may push independence support into a majority.
      The future of the United Kingdom as a state as a ‘world player’ is in the balance. It surprises me how few in England seem aware of that.

    196. robertknight says:


      Which Parliament deals with purely English legislation and which Parliament deals with purely Scottish legislation? I think you’ll find that Westmonster is the de jure English Parliament, if not in name then certainly in law.

      Nice to see The Trunchbull getting such warm and fluffy coverage in the Yoon meeja today. What next I wonder. A national holiday when the bairn arrives? A ‘flag day’ perhaps? I’m sure that as a fellow Yoon, the Obergruppenführer of the Demented Ulster Puritans will be quick to congratulate her.

    197. Valerie says:

      @ Dr Jim 10.49

      Great post.

      Wee Willie Rennie telling Brewer, just now, they are the movement for “moderates”.

      I always think of movements when wee Willie is on. Brewer just told him he’s dissed Jo Swinson. Haha

    198. haudonthenoo says:

      In regards to intelligent people reading the Express and comparison to the Mail.

      While you would wipe yer erse with the Express the mail comes pre-coated…

    199. Stravaiger says:

      Anent the question of whether Brexit is all about the tax avoidance legislation, I have just finished reading ‘The Sovereign Individual’ by Lord William Rees-Mogg and I am convinced the answer is ‘yes!’. In fact it goes much further than that, but if the ‘ultras’get their way it will be a no deal Brexit with no transition period. May will be allowed to stay on as PM until after Brexit unless they are struggling to get their way. Likewise with a general election.

    200. gus1940 says:

      I am currently playing back The Marr Show.

      Did my ears deceive me or did The Dep. Ed. Of The Sunday Times say that Davidson was ‘hugely popular in Scotland’?

      How uninformed and delusional can one get?.

    201. Fred says:

      @ Ronnie Anderson, business? I was looking fur U to staun ye a hauf!

    202. Shinty says:

      There is no way in hell the City of London and their spivs will permit (and I mean permit) the UK Gov to uphold EU legislation on tax evasion etc. (City of London & spivs include, elected and unelected members of the English (WM) Parliament)

      I posted this yesterday but it is, IMHO essential viewing.

      The Spider’s Web

    203. jfngw says:

      The Ruth Davidson persona is mostly a media creation, she worked in the media, her only input to politics is by media photo opportunities. Outside the media she appears to not exists, well her constituents don’t seem to be able to find her anyway.

      Her policies are flexible, whatever will deliver a media headline is her policy. She seems to have no real beliefs beyond the next media headline. Ignore the not wanting to be PM, it’s either false hubris or she really knows she has no chance and is giving the impression of it being her decision.

      In the end who cares, she is a vacuous person, in fact the type you often find in the media. She could be a One Show presenter, with that over enthusiastic fake interest in the latest guest.

    204. Liz g says:

      Fred @ 11.54
      Right back at ye Fred… I wiz keeping an eye oot fur you fur the exact same reason!

    205. Hamish100 says:

      Davidson is playing the game. A bit of poor me brigade –divert from brexit, divert from the dark money, divert from the racist and sectarian bigots in her own party. Divert , divert , divert. With a compliant tory , foreign owned press and her old work colleagues at the BBC. Easy peasy.
      She now has more than a few excuses to drop out of sight as brexit looms nearer and tory infighting continues.
      After the wain is born she may bounce back and totally go back on what she has previously said. The “I owe it to my constituents” type of guff and I need to move south for my health and a tory safe seat.

      Don’t believe the tory press, journalists or the BBC, oh and Davidson.

    206. gus1940 says:

      I see that Boris has returned form Washington where he has been wining and dining with ans addressing The American Enterprise Institute.

      Try googling ‘American Enterprise Institute’and then be very scared.

      They were the evil crowd led by Rumsfeld, Cheney and Wolfowitz who used G W Bush as their flexible little puppet.

    207. gus1940 says:

      I see that Boris has returned from Washington where he has been wining and dining with ans addressing The American Enterprise Institute.

      Try googling ‘American Enterprise Institute’and then be very scared.

      They were the evil crowd led by Rumsfeld, Cheney and Wolfowitz who used G W Bush as their flexible little puppet.

    208. galamcennalath says:

      Davidson is utterly hopeless. Mouthy naff with a hollow heid. Has no principles, makes no decisions. Hides when the going gets hard. Has only two objectives, protect the UK, protect herself.

      These attributes make her idea for a BritNat politician in the current constitutional climate in Scotland!

      BritNat politicians in Scotland must, by existential necessity, be incapable of having reasoned opinions and coming to their own conclusions. That would be dangerous for the cause of British Nationalism.

      The media hype her up to boost her standing in Scotland. She has absolutely thing to offer the Tories beyond that role.

    209. Dr Jim says:

      A rock and a hard place:

      Brexit must respect the Irish Border question

      When in Englands history ever has that country ever respected the Irish, don’t all rush at once because the answer is never
      So what are they really worried about, well it’s the unspoken truth of the last two years that England can’t bring themselves to mutter and it’s Irish fellas with things that go bang will go bang again and they’ll take those bang things and go bang in England

      There I said it, because England government won’t and that’s the big issue if England thought no big bangs would happen they’d stick up a wall with sojurs the full length of it and sod the Irish and the Irish know it and the English know the Irish know it, and if the English do stick up a big wall and things go bang those Irish fellas can’t be labelled as terrorists anymore because those people will be fighting for the freedom of their country and while people may condemn their acts they can’t condemn their cause and no amount of money will buy peace this time

      So where does that all leave peaceful Scotland in the minds of the English government, do they just press on regardless in the blind hope that absolutely nothing other than political moaning will be the result because Scotland has not in the past presented an Irish solution to England created problems, because they’d be wrong, Scotland can create holy hell for the England government using the existing powers of the Scottish parliament on a multitude of levels and the only solution for the England government would then have to be a punitve one which would see support for Scottish Independence not just rise but skyrocket

      It’s all lose lose for our southern rellies on this one

    210. Robert Peffers says:

      @Breeks says: 16 September, 2018 at 9:51 am:

      ” … Funny. I feel exactly the same about the SNP. If they cannot make the case for Independence now, when the Union hangs by a merest thread, then actually, when can they?”

      Strange the things some folks find funny.
      Far be it for me to defend the views of Dave McEwan Hill, but you are talking your usual utter load of pish. God and yourself, only knows where you seek the information you base such claptrap upon.

      The SNP have been making the perfect case for ending the union, since the party was founded in 1934 with the amalgamation of the National Party of Scotland and the Scottish Party.

      Just because you personally either fail to understand what that case consists of or alternatively because your personal beliefs are at odds with logical and reasoned argument does not make your case any more reasonable.

      Well here’s my personal take on you and your unreasonable views.

      You are anti-SNP and there is, and never will be, any other vehicle that has the slightest chance of ever regaining Scotland’s independence than a popular grass=roots movement of the, legally sovereign people of Scotland and the NATIONAL Party of Scotland.

      Whatever the overly complex and complicated case it is you choose to espouse it will not ever regain for Scotland what was lost by the self interest of the very same class of Scottish people who sold off Scotland’s birth right for personal gain in the first place.

      I’ll state, right here and now the whole case for Scottish Independence – The best interests of the legally sovereign people of the Kingdom of Scotland are best served by an independent parliament chosen by the legally sovereign people of Scotland.

      To muddy the waters with arguments on what currency, what form of government, what foreign policy. Et Al. Are all totally irrelevant. All such will be a matter for an independent parliament of the legally sovereign people of Scotland to decide and not that of any other country before independence is gained.

      So just what is this case you want the SNP to make?

      Bear in mind that post independence we have no idea of who or what kind of government the people of Scotland might choose to elect to serve the people of Scotland’s best interests.

      To put that more bluntly – who the hell cares what, currency, form of government, foreign policy, defence of Scotland, nuclear policy, in or out of Europe or whether we keep the Queen of Scots or anything else must be settled now.

      That is the entire reason we want an independent Scotland – so that an independent Scotland can decide such matters.

      Why ever would we want to decide before we are independent what the independent Scottish parliament will decide after independence?

      The case for independence is to choose to be independent.

      Everything else is dependent upon being independent. Stop muddying the waters.

    211. Daisy Walker says:

      @ Stravaiger says: In fact it goes much further than that, but if the ‘ultras’get their way it will be a no deal Brexit with no transition period.

      The way the European Union Withdrawl Bill is written, Westminster can do what they like and they like not to pay their taxes.

      From the EU perspective – any Transition period would involve the full implementation of the Tax Avoidance Laws for the duration of the Transition Period.

      No Deal and No Transition Period is looking extremely likely for that reason. It all pivots on the European Court of Justice.

      Brexiteers would probably quite like to stay in the SM and the CU – but you can have neither of these without the ECJ adjudicating, and you can’t drop inconvenient bits of its legislation (i.e. Tax Avoidance) just because you don’t like it.

      That was why no-one could understand Terrible May’s sudden, out of the blue, rage against the ECJ. There had never been a problem with the ECJ and it is a totally separate entity from the EUCourt of Human Rights, which had previously thrown up all the tory spin and bluster.

      When you see it from the point of view of protecting the Tax Havens, suddenly it fits remarkably well.

      Likewise the Norway model, Canada model, ect…. need the ECJ. So not going to happen.

      Whether the above speculation is correct, partially correct or wrong. Does anyone doubt there are a substantial number of MP’s and members of the House of Lords with assets or family assets, squirrelled away, who would face significant expense if the Tax Avoidance Laws came into force with a European Court of Justice to ensure it was done.

      I think that is a knowledge that needs to be obtained, and then I think that question needs to be put before the house of commons, as a monumental conflict of interest and a national disgrace. It makes Robber Barons look tame (they only stole) they didn’t vandalise the whole country’s economy.

      The Spiders Web is a very good film.

      Best wishes to all.

    212. Robert Peffers says:

      @HYUFD says: 15 September, 2018 at 10:36 pm:

      ” … Robert Peffers Scotland has already had a referendum in 2014, they voted 55% to 45% to stay in the UK.

      More unintelligent, idiotic and irrelevant pish. What is more if you don’t realise why it is utter pish then you’d best keep quite.

      Far better to let people suspect you are an idiot than open your mouth and spout the evidence that you are indeed an idiot.

      I’m not even going to bother explaining why your claim is pish – we have all explained that particular claptrap to English Nationalist many, many times.

    213. Phronesis says:

      If you are concerned about psychological distress and the well being of children who are growing up in vulnerable households you might want to support a government that is embedding child rights, dignity and fairness in all its policies and not front a cabal that is propping up a small minority of individuals lacking in talent or intellectual capability who are fleecing the majority.
      There is no positive plan for the future of the British state.

      ‘The results show that maternal emotional distress is strongly associated with financial vulnerability, more so than with income, and that child SEB wellbeing is negatively associated with financial vulnerability and maternal emotional distress’

      Treanor MC (2016) The effects of financial vulnerability and mothers’ emotional distress on child social, emotional and behavioural wellbeing: a structural equation model, Sociology, 50 (4), pp. 673-694.

      Paying to be poor- how very anti- competitive and keeping the poor in a financial straight jacket.

      ‘Overall, a primary concern, and possibly an increasing concern, for the poverty premium is that purely market-driven consumption in the existing supply structures will increase the vulnerability of those who are already susceptible, while also placing greater responsibility on those same households to avoid or deal with their disadvantage. Central to tackling the poverty premium is recognising that low-income households have particular needs around the way they manage their money and that products and services designed for middle or higher-income customers may automatically disadvantage them.
      As such, the poverty premium in some areas is underpinned by lack of true competition and innovation which meets the needs of low-income consumers’

    214. ScottishPsyche says:

      And you know what else really galls? Davidson uses the ‘well I threw away the tablets and sorted myself out’ narrative which implies that anyone who does stay on tablets or needs more help is weak.

      Typical tory – unable to empathise or recognise that not everyone has the personal resources within them to sort it out or that those who cannot often don’t have the support systems she obviously had. The same people who at a PIP assessment will say ‘well look at Ruth Davidson, she sorted herself out’.

      Already I have seen people saying it was her ‘extraordinary character’ that got her through! Well, funny all we have seen is a media creation with every opportunity handed to her to weasel her way out of difficult scrutiny.

      Remember the furore of Theresa May’s childlessness being used against her? When Nicola Sturgeon was tainted with the selfish woman who only wants to work brush, she told of her miscarriage to then be accused of using it to garner sympathy? My god, have the press lost their collective minds and memories today?

    215. Dorothy Devine says:

      ScottishPsyche, not only have they lost their collective minds and memories , they have also lost their readership!

    216. Robert Peffers says:

      @HYUFD says: 16 September, 2018 at 9:14 am:

      ” … Proud Cybernat Nationalists said exactly the same in 2014 and yet Scots voted 55% to 45% to stay in the UK on an over 80% turnout.”

      Aye! And Lloyd George’s 1909 budget was called the ‘people’s budget’ because it provided for social insurance and was to be mainly financed by land and income taxes.

      His budget was rejected by the House of Lords. This led directly to the Parliament Act of 1911 by which the Lords lost their power of veto.

      Do you imagine that because Lloyd George did something in in 1911 that it was cut into stone and mounted on a plinth in front of the speaker’s chair in the Commons.

      Every time you post your pish here on Wings you confirm that you are an idiot. Things in 2018 differ from those in 2014. Now awa ye gan hame.

    217. galamcennalath says:

      Gove telling everyone who will listen, and much of the loyal media has, that the Chequers plan as it stands is only a temporary fudge to form the basis of the non binding future proposal. Surprise, not.

      Once their Brexit has been achieved future trade might end up as anything from ultra hard to ‘Norway’!

      Real question is, who will go along with this subterfuge? EU, Labour, far right?

    218. Clapper57 says:

      gus1940 says:
      16 September, 2018 at 11:45 am

      “Did my ears deceive me or did The Dep. Ed. Of The Sunday Times say that Davidson was ‘hugely popular in Scotland’?”


      Well gus, just like opinion polls, the media’s subjective and biased Unionist opinion has the same purpose…… and that is to try to INFLUENCE public opinion not to REFLECT public opinion.

      Perhaps a more accurate fact he could have said would have been that she is “hugely popular” with the MEDIA as she is being presented, be them, as the only real challenger to the SNP. Not for her policies but for her unionist position.

      Her ‘popularity’ is a myth that stems from the unpaid PR as perpetrated by the press together with their lack of scrutiny and exposure into her, and her party’s , sheer hypocrisy, lack of consistency, lack of policies pertinent to Scotland’s unique issues, true association with the Tory party at WM and their policies ( that is, they, the press, not truly identifying that she and her colleagues in Scotland are Tories and not a separate entity to WM Tories) , questioning and investigating matters relating to Tory financing i.e. Dark money scandal etc etc

      Fortunately they are only talking to those in Scotland who are already converts to the Tory cause since any person who votes for other political parties must surely be convinced and aware of her lack of any real merit.

      Actions speak louder than words and unfortunately for Ruth the Tories lack of action in support of Scotland is obvious and abysmal and as to her words they are empty and hold no substance other than a repetitive comment that bears no reflection to the reality of what is happening in Scotland.

      The media know Brexit is a game changer in Scotland because they know that it weakens greatly their BT unionist argument to the extent that they are resorting to promoting this false prophet that is but a Tory in Scotland aka Ruth Davidson while tactically undermining the persona of Nicola Sturgeon. Tis the oldest trick in the book, but their biggest problem is that perhaps it is all way to late , to obvious in motive and way too incredible to convince Scots that Ruth is the future when clearly most of us have decided she and her like are the past , a past we want to leave behind and never revisit.

      Just because THEY, the media, say it is true that does not make it so…how very very true this really is in the context of this unionist media’s declarations of Ruth D supposed popularity in Scotland. Yeh Popular Like standing on sh*t is popular…LOL.

    219. Valerie says:

      @ Scottish Psyche

      Many on Twitter have been making your points. Those that have or do struggle with mental health do not appreciate her cavalier attitude to throwing away pills. It’s quite dangerous advice.

      I think as party leader of a party, the worst in memory, for destroying lives with their heinous policies, this is going to backfire.

      I go back to my previous post. I think her article is aimed at right wing party faithful. She sees the ERG as kingmakers for now. She has signalled,

      I’m loyal to Union and party;
      I’m good lobby fodder;
      I’m no nonsense, jolly hockey sticks with illness;
      I’ve got great links to media pack;
      I despise SNP, and Scots (who are theives)

      Gies a seat.

    220. starlaw says:

      methinks with all the Davidson rubbish today, it must be getting near the ‘Politician of the Year Award’ time again.

    221. Petra says:

      I reckoned that Ruth Davidson would use her future baby as an excuse for not wanting to be PM (or get out of politics altogether if need be). A wee scapegoat to cover up for the fact that she knows she’s just an ignorant charlatan who would be outed at Westminster from day one.

      BBC News has just reported that she doesn’t want to be PM, as she’d find it unacceptable (or words to that effect) to leave her child in Edinburgh as she worked in London. What about just taking your child with you, Ruth?

      They also reported that she’d been diagnosed with clinical depression, self-harming, drinking too much, etc when she was 18, due she said to the death of a boy in her village (I don’t think so!). Another reason she gave for not wanting the PM job …. “to preserve her mental health.” Note that she thinks it’s ok for Scotland to be lumbered with her.

      What really concerned me about this report, from a great deal that was concerning, was that she said that she’d changed her life by taking up exercise and throwing away her tablets. That might have worked for her (clinical depression), then again probably not from our point of view …. manic, but could be absolutely devastating for others following her “expert not” advice. I would imagine that many healthcare professionals, across the UK, will be horrified by the BBC report today. Why they broadcast the “throw away your medication … it worked for Ruth Davidson”, just beggars belief.

    222. HYUFD says:

      Bob Mack I never said services workers do not work hard, it was LizG who implied only manufacturing and primary industry workers work hard but as you state most of the Scottish economy is services. The richest parts of the UK are London and the Home Counties and England also still has pharmaceuticals like Glaxo Smith Kline and manufacturing such as Aston Martin or the Toyota factory in Sunderland.

    223. HYUFD says:

      Despite rising oil and gas revenues Scotland still contributed only 8% of UK tax revenue but received 9% of UK spending

    224. HYUFD says:

      Luigi You are obviously a Scottish nationalist who wants to Leave the UK, British nationalists are those who want the UK to have a hard Brexit from the EU

    225. ScottieDog says:

      It’s not over for Ruth. This is project Ruth 2 – ‘normalising ruth’
      The reluctant leader and mother stepping up to the plate and saving the U.K.
      It’s not over.
      Boris’ job agh them moment is to blunder away to make Rees Mogg look competent.

    226. HYUFD says:

      Abulhaq Whether as the UK or as England and Wales England will still be an upper middle ranking power in the G7 and G20 and alongside France the strongest military power in Western Europe. The UK has not been a superpower since the end of the British Empire. An independent Scotland of course would be out of the G8 and out of the G20 and with the global significance of Slovakia

    227. HYUFD says:

      Robertknight Westminster incorporates MPs from all 4 home nations, the fact rightly when English only laws are debated rather than UK wide only laws only English MPs tend to vote on them does not change that

    228. Fred says:

      @ Liz, sorry to have missed ye!

    229. HYUFD says:

      Robert Peffers No they have not polling shows Unionists in 2014 remain Unionists and Nationalists on 2014 remain Nationalists, the only thing which may change voters minds a bit more to independence is a No Deal Brexit but May wants to avoid that and polls show even English voters do not want a No Deal Brexit too

    230. ScottishPsyche says:

      It’s important to remember not everyone with mental health problems finds it as easy as Ruth to make the system work for them.

      Also nasty, opportunistic lazy arsed liars can have bouts of mental illness – it doesn’t then make them a saint.

    231. Cageybee says:

      I know we are not meant to respond to trolls but an independent scotland dropping 73 places on the oil producing table beggars belief

    232. Luigi says:

      HYUFD says:
      16 September, 2018 at 1:52 pm
      British nationalists are those who want the UK to have a hard Brexit from the EU

      Correction: British Nationalists are those who pretend to be “unionists” (even though there is no union).

      Nice try, but you British nationailsts ain’t getting away with that one any more.

      Truth hurts? Deal with it. 🙂

    233. Luigi says:

      Oh Dear,

      It seems the British Nationalists really don’t like to be called….
      “British Nationalists”.

      As expected. 🙂

    234. Petra says:

      How long is this going to go on for? The last 6 of 8 posts. This person has been outed as being a tr*ll who’s taken over one thread after another on here. Stu’s constantly telling us not to communicate (he / she spouts, someone answers, he / she replies) and in fact report it to him. Let’s just do it.

    235. Shinty says:

      Guess Ruth must have had a negative response to the questionnaire on her recent ‘stop the SNP’ leaflet.

      ie Who would make the best First Minister of Scotland

      a) Ruth Davidson
      b) Nicola Sturgeon

      and we all pished ourselves laughing.

    236. jfngw says:

      Hi, I’m looking for someone to help me out. Obviously I have some criteria.

      They should be someone who worked abroad preferably within a ‘war zone’ area. They have reached the peak of their potential in their career with a certain destain for the general public. Must be kind to animals, evidence of a humanitarian rescue of something like a dog would help. Must be willing to put their offspring before their career. A difficult period in your past would be helpful, possibly the experience of self-harming and throwing off the prescribed medicine to prove that mental illness is all in the mind. Finally an ability to put all this down for the future in the form of a book would be helpful.

      Please no Walter Mitty characters, I want a proven history, I’ve come across too many chancers in my past.

    237. Robert Peffers says:


      Hi, Wingers. I just chanced upon a real Crazy guy who posts on YouTube as, “Peter of England”. I have thought for years I had heard it all before but this guy has shown me I have still got surprises in store. Go to YouTube or Google and search for, “Peter of England”.

      Here’s a couple of examples:-

      It really is hard to believe people are taken in by this crazy character.

    238. Sarah says:

      @Petra 2.30: reported to the Rev about 30 mins ago and hoped lots more are doing the same.

      Back on to the thread. The Ruth D treatment is par for the course. Until a referendum or other vote for Scotland’s restoration is held, this standard of journalism will continue. I am longing to see what happens the day after a Yes vote. Oh how we will laugh to see the change!!!

    239. frogesque says:

      @Petra 2.30.

      Agreed, just ignore the bridge dwellers. No objection to BritNats having a say and debating their point but constant shut up and get back in the box statements purely to derail get fell tiresome.

    240. Luigi says:

      Folks, don’t laugh when you hear statements to the effect that Ruth Davidson will be “Future FM of Scotland”. She may well be – unelected of course, as defacto FM, governor general, Savour Queen of Scots.

      It all depends on how Brexit plays out. This massive build of of the Scottish Office and media pampering of Ruth Davidson is their insurance policy – to be called on if needed. The BBC polishing of RD ongoing now is not to make her electable in Scotland (they know turd polishing only goes so far). No, this cunning plan is to prepare Scotland for a new queen: Devolution Tzar, Secretary of State, Scottish governor – call it what you like. We are being softened up.

      Of course, the best laid plans of mice and men…. 🙂

    241. Dr Jim says:

      Don’t you just love it when Britnats claim Scotland has oil and gas which we don’t except geographically then they claim we don’t have enough of it to make a difference while all the while not mentioning the fact that Englands government moved the maritime border so they could claim 6 thousand square miles of Scottish waters containing oil and gas for England but call it UK oil and gas at the same time as fraudulantly renaming the north sea area of Scotland Extraregio territory making it UK oil and gas

      So there you have it England folks Scotland has no oil

      Oh but they say Scotland benefitted from all the jobs, well let’s do that one shall we since the oil price downturn over which Scotland has no control they say Scotland lost around 180.000 jobs well if you check jobcentre records you’ll strangely enough NOT find all those people on the dole so where are they, well a great many of them were never Scottish in the first place as oil workers came from every corner of the planet, they just went away somewhere else because if they hadn’t Scotland would have a massive unemployment figure, but we don’t

      Oil revenue the England government say is distributed to the UK and that’s a lot of people isn’t it so it stands to reason if oil was actually Scotlands oil in an Independent country that revenue would be kept in Scotland shared amongst only 5.4 million and that’s kinda a lot of oil money then isn’t it

      Oil tax and revenue is set and controlled by the England government so to talk about an Independent Scotland using the same tax revenue and spend system as a comparison with how Scotland might manage it’s own oil resources is a nonsense, even if all an Independent Scotland had done since the discovery of oil was to copy exactly what Norway did Scotland would be like Norway one of the richest countries in the world
      but because it was under the control of the England government they stole it and pissed it up against a wall just like they do with every asset they’ve ever had, until they go and steal somebody else’s assets that is, but of course that time is almost over

      The expression Scotlands oil is a British Nationalist piece of propaganda until it actually is Scotlands oil, and when that day comes what a bonus it’ll be but thankfully thanks to the SNP Scotlands onshore and diverse economy is so steady now it will be just that, a bonus, oh and when Scotland is Independent the maritime border returns to its original position by law which removes all access to the oil and gas England stole to make their own (Aw wee shame eh)

      Luvvly innit!

      To police it I’d put an Exocet missile through any English vessel that came near it, well we know those work quite well on Britnat boats, and they go right through Union flags nae bother

    242. One_Scot says:

      I suppose one good thing about the constant deranged ravings of the knuckle dragging trolls is that it lets ordinary reasonable minded voters see what the typical BritNat Yoon mentality is really like.

    243. Golfnut says:

      ‘re oil.
      The St Fergus pipeline pumps £200 million of oil daily, its represents just 40% of Scottish production. To date that represents in today’s money £3 Trillion in value.
      First question to Westminster, where did that money go, considering you have managed to generate £1.5 Trillion of debt. Second question, what is your plan for repaying Scotland.

      Who the hell wants to be in the G8, totally useless.

    244. Clapper57 says:

      @ Petra @ 2.30pm

      Agreed 100% Petra.

      I am thinking of just not bothering posting anything any more because the debate is being stifled and the thread deflected by ongoing arguments instigated by someone whose purpose is very obvious.

      Totally respect people may want to challenge what is being said but to an observer it then becomes pointless trying to debate as points get lost …..and frankly I do not come on here to just constantly scroll past posts …..but come on here to read and then debate in a courteous manner with others.

      Life is depressing enough in the outside unionist environment but to be confronted with it constantly on here… well tis too much.

      Will still read WOS as one of the best and plus it keeps his numbers up re visitors but , as you say, gone on too long so I will give it a rest as pretty sick of it.

      Apologies to anyone who does respond to u know who. I am totally not dissing you but it really is so depressing as it seems to take over whole thread …which I think is the real motive of the individual who instigates this.

      Have a good day Petra and other wingers.(insert smiley face.. lol)

    245. Referendum1707 says:

      Dr Jim said upthread (or the previous one) that an SNP councillor had told him that the SNP leadership isn’t saying anything to anyone about the timing of indyref2, and that consequently anything that is said will be as a result of people believing whatever fantasy about “backtracking” on it that the anti-Scottish media tries to pass off as true.

      I’m fine with the SNP leadership keeping their cards very close to the chest on this, after all they could hardly do anything else at this stage. However I’m not fine with the notion that the SNP the party of Scottish independence are having a conference in October at which independence/indyref2 will not be discussed on the platform. To me that seems utterly ridiculous, especially under the current circumstances and I can’t believe that NS isn’t aware of the damage that would do to morale never mind the criminal corrupt media thinking it’s all their Xmas’s at once.

      (Though of course I don’t actually know any more than anyone else what will be announced at the conference, I’m just disturbed by various comments on here and elsewhere which I come across where it’s said with some certitude that it won’t be discussed)

      Whatever she and the rest of the leadership are thinking it better not be them thinking they can just kick the can down the road indefinitely or even for much longer.

      THEY CAN’T.

      Yes I know the idea of losing again is a suicide inducing nightmare but we simply cannot just sit around waiting for the WM regime to invoke no deal brexit and then immediately move to dismantle Holyrood and make campaigning for Scottish independence illegal.

      We have to try again and soon. If we don’t there is no future. NS and co MUST know that. Just in case they don’t, someone better tell them quick.

    246. Liz g says:

      Bob Mack @ 10.55
      For the avoidance of doubt
      My position is that Westminster/England has never survived without the resources of other Countries.
      The only real talent the English ruling Elite have is hiding this in plain site!
      Twisting the narrative if ye like!!

      The Toil and Treasure of those other Countries I did not specify, I used the phrase “the sweat from our/ Scottish backs.
      See what I mean…

      It’s just like The Rev and us Wingers using our Time and Treasure to have a blogg that is very successful at highlighting Scottish issues. Then someone in England decides to highlight the Union case.
      Do they try to persuade the English electorate to value the Union and encourage them to have their politicians try to save it ?
      Do they make a blog themselves to counter Wings, with it’s own set of BTL posters,discussing the case for the Union?
      Do they fund raise to run said blogg?
      Do the put the sweat off their backs into it like the Rev dose?
      They do what Westminster has always done… they use the Scottish Resource to present their case.

      Oh “they”might not call this piggybacking on to Wings stealing,and I suppose in law it isn’t.
      The English Establishment don’t have a word for what they do.
      But nevertheless here we are AGAIN a Scottish resource being used for the benefit of an English Nationalists, because they can’t or won’t use their own efforts!

      I don’t think these people will ever be capable of standing on their own two feet, but they must learn to do so without Scotland and right soon…

    247. Tackety Beets says:

      Will Podmore ?

    248. Tackety Beets says:

      Will Podmore ?

    249. Les Wilson says:

      after reading the ” Police Scotland Brand Fracking Opponents as Domestic “Extremists” In The Sunday National. We should all be concerned with this as it basically is saying that any group who does not meet their safe agenda will be targeted, by surveillance of one kind or another.

      This by the UK’s National Counter Terrorism Policing Network (UNCPTN),they are active against anti fracking groups and have ” unjustifiably smeared” anti fracking campaigners. The UNCPTN work with Mi5. I expect Mi5 has a very long list of objectives in Scotland already, and have had for many years.

      There will certainly be operatives in the SNP and all the other parties in Scotland keeping their ears to the ground,and filming every march and protest that comes about.

      I think we are not naive, we know this goes on. But it brings out the truth of how Westminster dictate, effects Scotland.
      Police Scotland are not really independent, they are in thrall with Westminster,designed to be and has always been.

      Of course this does not help the independence movement, and raises questions as to how active the Police will be in protecting us against any threat to our peaceful,but vocal efforts for Independence. Will it mean when push comes to shove they will actively work to hinder Independence on Westminster’s instructions?

      Can we even trust those who instruct our Police Force anymore?
      I have my doubts.

    250. Fred says:

      I’m all for the English standing on their own feet, they’ve been standing on ours for far too long!

    251. Dr Jim says:

      @Referendum 1707 3.02pm

      There will be plenty of discussion about Independence going on at conference but there will be no official announcements

      The reason for that should be clear, if the FM were to make anything just one word public on the plan for Independence the England governments media would monster it and her for dates and times and start their full blown anti indy campaign immediately, the FM isn’t going to hand them that gift when the Tories are busy stabbing themselves to death over Brexit she’ll wait until the life’s draining out of their veins then she’ll stick her knife in to make sure they die

      She’s not going to lose again

    252. Liz g says:

      Fred @ 3.23
      Ha Ha … ye got that right..
      Sorry to have missed you too yesterday, hopefully I’ll see ye in Edinburgh!
      Dr Jim @ 3.31
      My yer awful blood thirsty the day Dr Jim
      Exocet missiles and now exangunation…
      They British Nationalists getting on yer last nerve ?
      …. been there tae Jim..

    253. remo says:


      I don’t think it is a good idea for anyone to give up posting on this site because of the views of a completely deranged Essex Britnat. I think this would play right into his/her/its hands. I could see the numpty in question bragging to a pal (if there is actually another Britnat batshit crazy enough to be a pal) that he/she/it has managed to put people off posting on an independence site. How powerful and cogent his/her/its arguments must have been and how feeble the independence movement must be etc. etc. Over my cold, dead body. My maw used to say that you should not mock the afflicted. I, for one, now realise that this person is afflicted and will cease mocking.

    254. Daisy Walker says:

      I do hope Ruthie is doing her homework about Brexit, given her recent reveal about personal vulnerabilities.

      Last thing she’s going to want to lose is employment protection for things like maternity leave, or part time working, or ill health cover, or holidays with pay ….. oh wait, sorry, forgot who I was speaking about and what party she is a member of.

    255. Abulhaq says:

      It would appear you have not read the Chatham House link; and that scenario was pre-Brexit.
      The current confused exiting ‘strategy’ reveals a deep concern or fear for England’s rôle and place in the world. The anglo-saxon ‘hegemony’ is being challenged. The world order established by the anglosphere after WW2 is breaking down. England’s course looks set for turbulence.
      At least the Slovaks are a sovereign people, free to make alliances as they please.
      Notice you do not cite Norway…a country with a large sovereign wealth fund based on the smart use of a natural resource.

    256. Petra says:

      @ Robert at 2:37pm …… “Peter of England.”

      I”ll back him, Robert …. taking England back to pre-1707, lol. Only problem is he’s probably going to be picked up by the Police in the very near future and locked up in the Tower of London.


      @ Sarah, frogesque and Clapper57 ….. Let’s hope that he / she is gone.


      Does anyone else on here think that it’s strange that Dark Money Davidson is divulging all at this time? Was someone else ready to spill the beans? Is she playing the sympathy card? Can she see the writing, end of the Union, is on the wall? I don’t know, but I don’t think that imparting that you suffered from clinical depression, was drinking too much and self-harming is going to increase her so-called popularity. I’m sure that many Tories don’t even like the fact that she’s a pregnant lesbian …. and now this. You’ll note that her cronies at Westminster do their utmost to cover up what’s deemed to be personality “flaws” because they know the score. So what’s going on with her?

    257. Robert J. Sutherland says:

      Referendum1707 @ 15:02,

      I feel your impatience, but it’s better to hold off on significant pronouncements that could soon be overtaken by events in a UK that is more unstable politically now than it has ever previously been in any of our lifetimes.

      It doesn’t help in the least for people on the indy side to be punting politically-driven minority opinions that ignore the clearly-expressed preference of the people of Scotland, since all that achieves is an impression of confusion and disunity.

      Considerably more useful is a rational analysis of what the likely outcomes might be in the near future as Joanna Cherry has done, as referenced by gala @ 10:35 upthread.

      It looks increasingly likely that a UKGE is in the offing. Chris’ cartoon is somewhat premature, in that the nag’s demise has been exaggerated. Or perhaps “its demise is forseen” is a better way of putting it. It may depend in the end not so much on Lord Snooty, but on Corbyn. If Labour finally come off the fence and have the moral courage to vote the Chequers plan down, May is toast, and maybe the whole Tory government along with her.

      And then what…?

      I would hope that in a UKGE the SNP would go to the country this time on a clear full-on manifesto commitment to independence, but it would inevitably scupper the timing for IR2 no end.

      Interesting times indeed. But not of the SNP’s making in any way. Its leadership have been the only cool heads in very turbulent times, and due credit to them for that.

    258. Dr Jim says:


      The devil makes me say these things…..but only about the bad people when my dander’s up
      Just occurred to me I don’t know what dander means, well it’s up whatever it means

    259. Dorothy Devine says:

      Dr Jim , ‘dander’ is the dead skin scales , bits of fur and feather that drop off warm creatures – not to mention temper and rage.

      Choose which definition suits!

    260. K1 says:

      ‘not to mention temper and rage.’

      Ma dander’s dander has even formed dander…ahm dandering mad wi aw this pish we’re huvin tae put up wi.

    261. Macart says:

      Huh! So Ms Davidson doesn’t feel up to the task of leadership because…stressful?

      I agree. I don’t believe Ms Davidson capable of fulfilling any such role either.

      Though you have to wonder why the same person feels qualified to ‘lead’ Scotland’s Conservatives and supposedly (you’d think) feels qualified for the position of First Minister of Scotland? (shrugs)

      If you’re not capable of one? You’re surely not capable of holding any such role? (again shrugs) Worth a thought.

      What we do know of Ms Davidson is what her party and supposedly she supports and that is a raft of central govt. legislation and policy which has driven countless people into hardship, desperation and misery. Condemned as human rights abuses by no less than the UN itself. That same party and indeed Ms Davidson also stand foresquare behind current and ongoing legislation which WILL drive the populations of these islands into a Brexit they are nowhere near prepared for.

      Maybe also worth thinking about.

    262. Dr Jim says:

      @Dorothy Devine

      A scaly raging creature with bits dropping off me

      Sounds about right I suppose, I’m a Dandersaur

    263. uno mas says:

      @ Dr Jim 4.26

      I always understood the dander to be the flap at the back of the old coal fires that when you pulled the lever that was situated at the back of the fireplace would open up and let more air in to the base of the fire therefore increasing the amount of flame that the coal produced.

      Thats my theory at least.

    264. Hamish100 says:

      Interesting that the “he’s a fud” troll pretends he is from the SE England yet quotes from the P&J?

      An east coaster right enough

    265. galamcennalath says:

      Robert J. Sutherland says:

      It looks increasingly likely that a UKGE is in the offing. … I would hope that in a UKGE the SNP would go to the country this time on a clear full-on manifesto commitment to independence


      2014 Yes 1.6m
      2015 SNP 1.5m
      2017 SNP 1.0m

      … I am certain that drop was because Yes supporters simply weren’t motivated to even get out and vote. If there is another GE soon, the SNP must get previous support all riled up again and raring to go!

      I was out campaigning for the SNP, but I must confess it was a weak campaign message. IMO a mistake was made in 2017 and it mustn’t be repeated.

      Postal votes. The Tories know that turn out via them is almost 100%. Turn out by getting out on the day is never above 75%. We need to as many SNP supporters as possible with postal votes. It’s a trick we can’t allow the Tories to monopolise. It is the key to removing Tory MPs!

    266. Dr Jim says:

      @uno mas

      That’s *Damper* I know that one

      Are we going bonkers or what… topic Rev!

    267. Petra says:

      Chris I’ve been meaning to say, over and above the fact that your cartoons are brilliant, that they’ll make for a great historical (pictorial with dates / comments) account / book of the Scottish Independence Struggle / Story, in the very near future. A book for all family members. Hope you’ll think of doing so. Meanwhile thanks for your fantastic input X

    268. Cubby says:

      I disagree with all this talk that we are finished if we lose the next Independence referendum. No we just keep going. We owe it to future generations. Did people give up after the 1979 pockled referendum. No. As long as people vote for a referendum then that is a mandate. One every 4 years if need be.

      The Britnats are masters of deceit, misrepresentation and downright lying but independence is coming. More and more of the younger generation can see right through the Britnats cloak of lies. It’s only a matter of when not if.

    269. Cubby says:

      See when that diddy of a Britnat troll said he worked in London it must be cleaning the toilets for all the pish he spouts.

      Why oh why do people feed these moronic trolls?

      As I said previously they are not worth a moment of anyone’s time.

    270. Winifred Mccartney says:

      RD – it’s all about the book – BBC pals free advertising – Times trying to give Tories a human face – it’s not working – remember their policies and the danger loose talk about ditching medication puting I’ll people in danger – only thinking about her bank balance.

    271. Col says:

      I’m with you cubby, we’re so close and yes. It is inevitable we will be independent. If a second referendum is lost it will be very narrowly. The SNP should say to the nation that every election there on in will be fought on an indy ticket. Returning a majority of SNP MP’s will be taken as a vote for indy. Forget 50% of the vote. The union wasn’t born of fairness.

    272. Proud Cybernat says:

      The endgame for May’s Brexshit plan is nearly upon us. Let’s say it’s voted down in WM and this triggers another snap GE.

      How should the SNP approach the next GE (keeping in mind that they already have a triple-locked mandate in the bank to hold IndyRef2)?

      I don;t see why they cannot put something like this in their GE manifesto:

      “The SNP are committed to giving the people of Scotland their own say on Brexit by way of a 2nd independence referendum and will do so irrespective of the outcome of this General Election. If, however, a majority of Scotland’s voting population support the SNP in this General Election, then we will take that majority support as authority and sovereign will of the people of Scotland to immediately negotiate Scotland’s independence from the United Kingdom.”

      Or summit like that. It would cover all possibilities and it would sure as hell get the YES support out during any snap GE called by May.

    273. Petra says:

      Ruth Davidson is getting a mention on Ch4 now. They say she’s been praised by fellow politicians, psychiatrists and campaigners and if she, Ruth Davidson, is not interested in the top job, it looks as though it’ll go to Boris Johnston now.”


      Katy Perior: “She’s an inspiration.” “Outpouring of support for her.”

      Alistair Campbell: “Others with mental health issues got to the top, such as Winston Churchill.”

      For Gods sake she’s well and truly CONNED that crowd of southern numpties.They can’t see that she has no policies of her own, doesn’t have a clue, rather just spouts the callous Tory party line and along the way has carried out multiple U-turns. All covered up by the Establishment’s key mouth piece, the corrupt MSM.

    274. Robert Peffers says:

      @HYUFD says: 16 September, 2018 at 2:08 pm:

      ” … Robert Peffers No they have not polling shows Unionists in 2014 remain Unionists and Nationalists on 2014 remain Nationalists”

      More unsubstantiated pish!

      In the past few weeks there have been several opinion polls highlighted and debated here on Wings that show voters intentions with independence well ahead.

      I place no credence in any opinion polls. For years they have been used by the Westminster propaganda pushers to influence voters – not to assess them.

      No one. least of all Westminster places any credence in opinion polls. If they did they would use opinion polls to choose the UK Government but they don’t.

      Everything you post here is claptrap. It has no substance. Quote proofs or give logical arguments – all you are is a loud hailer spouting propaganda.

    275. HYUFD says:

      Luigi By its very definition if you support a union, whether of the UK or the EU, you are a Unionist, if you want to breakaway from that Union you are a Nationalist

    276. Ghillie says:

      Cubby @ 6.12 pm

      Well said =)

      Scotland WILL be Independent 🙂

      And you and I and millions of other like minded folk will never give up on Scotland 🙂

    277. HYUFD says:

      LizG England alone has a GDP of £1.43 trillion($2.06 trillion).

      That would place it still in the top 10 global economies at 7th, just above Brazil even if it lost Scotland, Northern Ireland and Wales.

      Scotland has a GDP of £152 billion ($237.618 billion). That would place it about 45th of global economies, just ahead of Egypt

    278. wull says:

      I fully agree with you, Cubby (at 6.12 pm). No more ‘once in a generation’ gaffes. Everyone knows it was an off the cuff statement, not a Party or a policy commitment. To my knowledge, it was never debated or voted upon in conference (or whatever the SNP call it), and it never appeared in any official manifesto. It therefore carries no weight whatsoever.

      The anti-independence MSM knows this full well. They have nevertheless exploited it to the full, continually repeating it ad nauseam. Rees-Mogg recently claimed on television to ‘agree with’ what I think he called ‘the SNP policy’ concerning the 2014 referendum, that it was a ‘once in a generation’ thing. But he even sounded unconvinced himself, as if he knew his argument very weak, made-up and ill-founded tosh.

      If anyone ever asks if ‘Indyref2’ is a once-in-a-generation thing, I hope the answer will be something like this: ‘You just wait and see. We’re in it to win it. And win it we will!’

      And if the questioner keeps pressing the same question, as journalists do, just repeat the answer and then ignore them. We are not expecting another indyref some time in the future to be necessary – but if it is, there will certainly be one. We are not planning on going anywhere, and we’ll be keeping at it until the job is done.

    279. HYUFD says:

      Abulhaq Norway of course is not in the EU

    280. HYUFD says:

      Robert Peffers The only polling which has had Yes ahead is based on an ultra hard Brexit which even most English voters do not want.

      Of course 2 weeks before indyref2 Yes were on 52% with YouGov but got 45%

    281. ScottishPsyche says:

      Ruth Davidson –

      1) Does she have ongoing mental health issues which prevent her from moving to London and becoming PM but would not stop her from becoming FM because …? Incidentally, these would raise concerns about serving in active duty in the army.

      2) Has she had mental health issues in the past which she has resolved and have no bearing on her ability to manage stressful situations now but are useful for her to use when it suits?

      I would love to see the psychiatric report to the 1922 Committee that says ‘Ms Davidson would find the stresses of being PM too much. However light duties including being FM of Scotland and being able to undertake active service in the Army when the nation needs her are recommended in the meantime’.

    282. Dave McEwan Hill says:

      HYUFD at 7.10

      See. There you go again. Think we are all daft. You are deliberately confusing size of economy with performance of economy.
      UK has a National Debt of nearly £2,000,000,000,000. My goodness. Not a lot of states could manage that. Now that is really impressive

    283. Robert Peffers says:

      @HYUFD says: 16 September, 2018 at 1:49 pm:

      ” … Despite rising oil and gas revenues Scotland still contributed only 8% of UK tax revenue but received 9% of UK spending.”

      Bloody hilarious! The entire oil & gas revenue is classed by Westminster as being from, “United Kingdom Extra Regio Territory”.

      The definition of the term, “Extra Regio Territory”, is defined as meaning, “It comes from no identifiable region”. So let us examine that for a moment. Here are a few facts:-

      Fact One: The term, “United Kingdom”, describes the whole kingdom formed by only the two signatory kingdoms of the Treaty of Union and these are he two, equally sovereign, kingdoms of Scotland & England. There are no other partners in the United Kingdom and what that treaty formed was a bipartite United Kingdom. It was not a quadratic union of countries and thus it is a kingdom – not a country.

      Scotland is thus not a region of the United Kingdom and neither is the three country Kingdom of England.

      Fact Two: As the two kingdoms of the United Kingdom each have independent legal systems, (Article 19 of the Treaty of Union). then they each have identifiable territories including both the international limits of 12 Nautical miles and the 200 mile Continental Shelf limits. These are identifiable and recognised under the International Law of the Seas. Up to 98% of United Kingdom oil & gas Revenue is extracted from internationally recognised Scottish Territorial waters that are under Scottish legal jurisdiction.

      Not a single penny of that oil & gas revenue goes to Scotland. It all goes directly to Her Majesty’s Treasury. It does NOT go to the Treasury of England because there is no such treasury. It is thus NOT English revenue.

      In any case the figure of 8.4% you quoted is certainly not a fair reflection of the Scottish contribution to Her Majesty’s Treasury as the figure is first of all, wrongly, based upon population ratios and not on geographic extraction location. Secondly as none of that 8.4% is given to Scotland it is only a paper estimate to derive an imaginary figure from fresh air to use to fiddle the books in other imaginary calculations.

      Until recently Scotland had no tax raising powers, no borrowing powers and Scotland’s entire income was from the Barnett Formula Block Grant – and that is decided by Westminster and, contrary to popular belief, is NOT based upon Needs.

      So there you go – pish and more pish every time you post on Wings.

    284. Petra says:

      Oh FGS, I’m not wasting anymore of my time on here tonight. This is getting to be ridiculous now.

    285. Golfnut says:

      We should thank this hyfud for pointing out how well Scotland is doing, Egypt has a population of 99 million, Scotland 5.2 million. But its not exactly comparing Apple’s with Apple’s is it. We sort of know what the UK GDP is, but we don’t know really what the breakdown is due to the fudges and estimates used to create the GERS mythology. 95% of all oil comes from Scottish waters, so the oil revenue split is nonsense. Scotland produces more oil than Norway, so why isn’t it as rich as Norway. £3 trillion in today’s money has been pumped south since it was opened. Whereabouts money, Scotland had seen none of that revenue.

    286. ben madigan says:

      here’s some info about Sinn fein’s presidential candidate, Liadh Ní Riada, and a concert of music composed by her illustrious father, Sean, the Sibellius of Ireland.

      Enjoy all music lovers!

    287. Robert Peffers says:

      @uno mas says: 16 September, 2018 at 4:52 pm:

      ” … I always understood the dander to be the flap at the back of the old coal fires that when you pulled the lever that was situated at the back of the fireplace would open up and let more air in to the base of the fire therefore increasing the amount of flame that the coal produced.”

      Nah! Yon’s the Damper, uno mas, no the dander.

    288. jfngw says:

      When you lie, make sure it is a viable lie. Imagine if I claimed to find self help from the internet in 1996 when there was next to nobody online (the BBC site didn’t officially launch until 1997). There were very few internet companies around, pretty much AOL or Demon, companies like freeserve didn’t launch until 1998.

    289. Alba Laddie says:

      Hi Fud – dae us he’s favour and away and put yer heid in the soup pan,son. Scotch broth is particularly unctuous and gloopy.

    290. ben madigan says:

      PS I forgot to add – the o’Riada candidature exemplifies the sort of people Scotland could candidate as President after independence – a musician, a woman who has triumphed over personal tragedies, a scientist, doctor, lawyer, philanthropist, author, painter –

      and the person who is elected will be whoever the Scots want to represent Scotland among the nations of the world.

      Big difference between that prospect and HM or Charles, isn’t there?

    291. K1 says:

      Right I’m now ‘trolling’ Rev.

      I wrote to you Stu, on the contact form on the 3rd of September and this is what I said:

      ‘Stu, if you consider discussing Independence with ‘zoomers’ and by that we mean those who denigrate and call us ‘nat’s’ and ‘whingers’ whilst launching into pointless, meaningless comparisons about other countries and the usual utterly trolling pish on twitter, why oh why do we have to put up with them btl on articles like this and the previous one?

      Your own pinned tweet at the top of your twitter feed is highlighting your block list and am pretty certain HYUFD is on your twitter block list as a die hard unionist who is unreasonable to debate with on these matters as the last couple of days engaging with him btl on here has shown?

      His mission statement leaves no doubt whatsoever what he is about:

      ‘HYUFD says:
      2 September, 2018 at 5:18 pm
      The Tories got a higher voteshare in 2017 across the UK than the SNP got in Scotland at the general election which really says it all.

      I will of course never apologise for having pressing the Unionist case hard, if you do not like that as a diehard Nationalist, tough.

      HYUFD says:
      2 September, 2018 at 5:24 pm
      I could of course not care less what anybody on this forum thinks, I came here to press the Unionist case hard and take on the Nationalists (and any party which puts National identity first is by definition Nationalist). Notice the brilliant Ruth Davidson by taking a tough hard approach to nationalists has seen her party’s vote surge, she is undoubtedly as tough a Unionist leader as Salmond was for Nationalists

      HYUFD says:
      2 September, 2018 at 5:29 pm
      You will no doubt whinge as ever about Scotland’s woes despite the fact it now has its own Parliament which decides most Scotgish domestic issues and representatives at Westminster too. The Tories have of course halved unemployment from 2010 and reduced the deficit too but that is a different matter however no doubt you will whinge about that too’

      He’s ‘nat baiting’ and if he gets a ‘bite’ he continues to engage with whoever he ‘thinks’ he’s ‘caught’ at the tail end of threads?

      He has previous on this too from the Cereal thread:

      It’s clear what he’s here to do Stu, can you please ‘do’ something about this. Otherwise the threads will just get jammed up wi his pish and constant undermining of our cause and take up our precious time in the lead up to indyref2.’


      And so it has proven?

      Now for the trolling part….gonnae dae something about it? How many others have contacted you regarding this? My argument for his trolling is as sound as yours for not debating wi die hard ‘unionists’ on twitter…so please take on board what me and others are now saying on these threads.

      It’s not going to stop until You stop it.

    292. stewartb says:

      I see ‘oil’ has come up in posts today, yet again. It was notable that the Sustainable Growth Commission argued that any future revenues from oil and gas in an independent Scotland should be regarded as a ‘windfall’ and invested for the future, and not used for recurrent expenditure.

      Its also worth remembering that offshore oil & gas resource exploitation and fiscal policy since day one has been controlled by Westminster; that not a penny of revenue from offshore licensing and production tax has ever come directly to Scotland for us to choose how to spend or invest it; and that tax on oil & gas industry company profits has always been set by Westminster and collected by HMRC.

      Scotland’s government and Holyrood Parliament has had no resource management or fiscal policy influence on oil & gas. So with no prior control, there is merit in noting the value, past and future, of the ‘asset’.

      As recently as March 2018, the UK Oil & Gas Authority updated forecasts of the UK’s dependency on oil & gas imports to meet energy needs. Dependency will rise to 69% by 2035, from the 2018 figure of 38%. Of course given that c. 90% of the UK’s oil & gas production comes from Scottish waters, upon our independence the import dependency for England, Wales and Northern Ireland will then be close to 100%, with Scotland becoming an ‘actual’ net exporting state in terms of oil & gas.


      For a UK state already with a longstanding balance of payments problem and now with Brexit and its potential impact on the value of Sterling, the impact of Scotland’s independence on energy import dependency must be of major, strategic concern to the UK state. No wonder they fear the dissolving of the Union any time soon!

      And Scotland’s future self-sufficiency in terms of natural gas is illustrated by this news in 2016 of major new gas field developments west of Shetland: “… peak production at the Laggan and Tormore fields could satisfy average demand across the whole of Scotland. In total, the two new fields, which have a lifespan of 20 years, will produce about 8% of the UK’s gas needs. A pipeline carries the gas from the huge new Shetland Gas Plant, part of a £3.5bn investment by French firm Total, down to the mainland and into the national grid.”


      (And of course this needs placed in the context of the successful ramping up of Scotland’s renewable energy generation capacity to date – and we still can look forward to realising the major offshore wind generation prize, never mind energy from waves and tides.)

      And remember this with regret. As far back as 2013, the BBC (and who on the Unionist side would doubt its veracity?) was reporting this: “Looking back over the past 40 years it is estimated the UK Treasury has benefited from offshore oil and gas production taxes to the tune of about £300bn (adjusted for inflation). Not all of that would have been from Scottish waters, but it is thought about 90% of it would.” Without independence, history will be repeated: who will choose how our energy assets are used, to whose benefit and for what purpose – not Scotland’s peoples!


      So we’re not too poor but let’s hope not so stupid not to realise that in this and so many other ways Scotland is an asset rich country!

    293. Capella says:

      @ Petra – me too. 🙁

    294. jfngw says:

      I spot online that some people are flummoxed that politicians that claim to be 100% pro EU are unwilling to support independence even if it resulted in Scotland remaining in the EU, whilst remaining with the UK meant they were forced to leave the EU.

      It’s simple really, they are British Nationalists, and British Nationalism is the largest cult in the UK. Th Scottish independence movement is just a speck compared to the British National cultism across the UK.

      They will prostrate themselves before a monarch, endure any humiliation to achieve an British honour. The highest accolade is to be elevated to the House of Lords. You would pity them if they were no so mendacious.

    295. wull says:

      Petra at 18.55

      If the Southern English Tories are so ecstatic about Ruth Davidson as they seem to be, according to their outpourings on Channel 4, that seems to me VERY GOOD NEWS INDEED for us. It shows you how deluded they are and confirms what we all know anyway – namely, that they understand precisely NOTHING about Scotland.

      Does anyone know any self-respecting Scot – even among Conservative voters – who actually likes her, or holds her in any kind of high esteem? I do not know any (and I do know quite a few Conservative voters). They vote for her Party, not for her. Because they are Conservatives and they believe in the Union, and always did. She never convinced them of any of that – they were always convinced anyway, long before they had ever even heard of Ruth Davidson.

      She has never convinced anyone, in the sense of winning a person over to Conservatism or Unionism who was not convinced already. The English Tory Party is completely misreading the gains the Conservatives made in the General Election. They think she – Ruth Davidson – managed to make a significant number of voters switch from the SNP to Tory. The truth is that the gains were made because the SNP failed to get the pro-Indy vote out in the numbers required.

      The problem was the drop in turn-out: too many who would normally have voted SNP stayed at home, and didn’t vote at all. Why did that happen? Various explanations have been mooted, but I think the main one was that the SNP did not put enough emphasis on their continuing commitment to gaining independence at the earliest possible opportunity. If I am right – and I am not saying I necessarily am (MacDiarmid has a nice little poem somewhere about what a scunner they are, those people who are ‘always right’) – I hope they never make that mistake again.

      As I already said in a previous post, no more ‘once in a generation’ gaffes please. We are in this until we win it, and we’ll never give up. English Tories really don’t know how thrawn we can be. They think – maybe based on an English model – that it all depends on ‘leaders’, who impress the people in such a way that the people blindly follow them (even over cliffs). The Pied Piper theory of politics, you could call it. After all, it worked for Brexit (in England, that is). They don’t realise that ideas matter. Especially up here in Scotland.

      Hence their complete misreading of the situation. They are daft enough to think that Ruth Davidson is now the Pied Piper of the Scots, so popular with us (!) that more and more of us will follow her wherever she goes. And that we’ll just forget about independence, so over-awed we are by this glorious leader … The fact that she is incoherent won’t even bother us, so entranced are we …

      The same thinking, by the way, leads them to the delusion that all they have to do to stop the bandwagon towards independence is get rid of ‘that Alex Salmond’. They think that the independence movement is all centred on him – that it’s a kind of sycophantic personality cult, which rolls around him. put a spoke in him, they think, and the wagon will run out of steam, career off the road, and give up the ghost, simply becoming another piece of political wreckage left to rot and rust by the wayside.

      That just shows how little they understand of us Scots, and of Scottish politics. Maybe English political bandwagons and English populism in general do depend on mavericks and charlatans and lying psychopathic charmers … Like Brexit did on Bonkers Boris and UKIP did on Nigel ‘Franco the Fallangist’ Farage.

      But the whole world isn’t England. And this is Scotland – it certainly isn’t England. You have to deal with ideas. And Scottish independence is an idea whose time has come. They can puncture Alex Salmond if they like … It won’t make a whit of difference: that idea, whose time has come, will simply keep growing. They can still Ruth if they like, she can’t stop an idea like this. How could she? She’s never had a genuine idea in her life, and doesn’t know how to argue any case. She just ‘the mooth’ from which no genuine thought ever, even once, escaped. A big mooth, for sure – the bigger, the emptier.

      You can only meet ideas with ideas. Independence isn’t just emotional – it really is a genuine idea. And the case for it really is rational. There is plenty of emotion around it, of course, but it does make sense, it is properly cogent, and it won’t simply die or go away. No matter how many different ways its opponents keep trying to spook it with all the various games they play to stop cogency and common sense and simple justice from winning through. But win through they will. Because what we are up against is smoke and mirrors, lies and subterfuge, something that is so irrational and self-contradictory – the whole unravelling network of multiple deceits which went to form the British ‘state’ in the first place and have continued it in being – that it cannot help but come undone.

      Basically this is not just a battle, but a war. Between an idea whose time has come and an idea whose time has gone. Brexit is the death-throes of the British state. Scottish independence means the end – the final end – of the English Imperial Dream. Brexit seemed to its supporters to be a victory for that dangerous Dream’s revival; in fact, however, it ensured its definitive demise. Pity the Brexiteers – the whole awful thing of which they dream in their wildest fantasies is in fact coming crashing down around them in a oile of smoke and dust. They haven’t seen it yet – but everyone else has.

      They don’t understand the Scots. Or Scotland, or what is really happening there. So they misjudge everything. They don’t even understand themselves. Or the implications of what they are trying to do. And they are making mistake after mistake. All the time deluding themselves that they are on a ‘jolly good winning wicket’.

      The Scots are the realists in this. Delusionism – which has many varieties – doesn’t stand a chance against us. The original ‘spider man’ (Robert Bruce) never stopped trying. Neither will we. He won. And so will we. It didn’t all depend on him. There was an idea at stake. An idea that was, quite simply, true. And right. And it galvanised us, and kept us there, and wouldn’t go away, despite all the bullying and subterfuge of the enemy. The situation today is similar. The idea that is right and true, and whose time has come, will eventually win – no matter what. On that score – ideas – we are not up against much. Nothing at all in fact. On the level of ideas, the enemies of Scottish independence have NOTHING to offer. They simply don’t have a single cogent idea. All they can put up against us is that swirling mass of contradictions in which they live and move. The self-vapourising vapour in which their case will soon extinguish itself.

      I can’t think of better (albeit passing) proof of that than the way they are turning to Ruth Davidson, as if she would ever be the Saviour of their cause. Talk of a tumbling man clutching at straws … as he falls from a great height to his inevitable doom.

      Bye Bye Britannia!

    296. galamcennalath says:

      WGD …. “Brexit doesn’t spell the end of hopes for Scottish independence, it spells the end for hopes of the UK preventing it. Brexit doesn’t mean the destruction of Scotland’s path to independence. It means the UK will have destroyed itself.”

      I, like a lot of others, am impatient to get out of this stinking corrupt ‘union’ and start building the modern decent democratic country we dream of. However, in Nicola we trust. We have no choice, really.

    297. Macart says:


      Heh! Beat me to it. 😀

    298. jfngw says:


      He’s hanging around because people are rising to the bate, if you ignore him he will go away. Trolls get bored when they are ignored.

      I don’t know if he is Simon from Essex that uses this name online elsewhere or has merely stolen someone else’s online identity. It doesn’t really matter, and I know it can be hard to ignore the gross nonsense but it goes away quicker if you do.

    299. 43 billion barrels of Brent crude oil extracted from North Sea,

      the average price of Brent crude oil from 1976 to 2018 was at 54.25 U.S. dollars per barrel.


      nearly $2.5 trillion dollars.

      And then you have North Sea Gas,

      which if anyone can find figures for how much extracted and at what average price i would be grateful to know.

    300. ScottieDog says:


      “Scotland has a GDP of £152 billion ($237.618 billion). That would place it about 45th of global economies, just ahead of Egypt”

      GDP nominal, not per capita. Nice try.

      What is England’s revenue stream?
      What are it’s real resources?
      Do these figs include banking? If so look at the U.K. balance sheet before and after 2008. You soon see the city of London is reductive of GDP.

    301. Sarah says:

      @wullat 8.49

      That is an excellent post, wull. And my husband was reading it at the same time and said he finds it inspiring and cheering – which we need!

      Petra, and any others put off by trolls – don’t let them win! I’m sure plenty of us have contacted the Rev and the matter will be dealt with idc.

    302. Cadogan Enright says:

      well here is an anti-BBC petition worth signing

      while those behind it are probably dense English Nats – and have not a clue about who controls private media in the UK – it sends an anti-BBC message

      An independent Scotland can always set up its own unbiased public service provider – come the day

    303. sandy says:

      Is (T)ruth looking for sympathy? Is she trying to make herself popular & gain a sympathy vote? She is a hell of a lot more fly than people think. Many of us suspected her mental disposition. Maybe she should join the other “disillusionals” down south, Johnson, Gove, Fox, etc.

      Admission of supposed mental illness seems to be the “in thing” for the moment.

    304. HYUFD says:

      Dave McEwan Hill Actually compared to the likes of Italy, Greece and even the USA, let alone Venezuala the UK national debt is not relatively that high

    305. Dr Jim says:

      Too mentally ill to be PM in England but just fine and dandy for Scotland

      Kinda insulting dontcha think

    306. Robert Peffers says:

      @K1 says: 16 September, 2018 at 8:37 pm:

      ” … Right I’m now ‘trolling’ Rev.
      I wrote to you Stu, on the contact form on the 3rd of September and this is what I said:”

      Bloody hilarious: K1 with a lengthy comment that has absolutely nothing to do with Scottish Independence, nor Scotland, nor politics nor of anything of any note really except complaining about other people who are at least commenting upon things, even if in debate with a unionist numpty, that are directed at matters associated with Scottish independence.

    307. HYUFD says:

      Robert Peffers ‘Including a geographical share of North Sea GDP, public spending as a share of GDP has been increasing since 2013-14 in Scotland, reflecting the fall in North Sea GDP over this period.’ (p30)

    308. HYUFD says:

      ScottieDog Textiles and chemicals and pharmaceuticals as well as British Aerospace, supermarket companies, tech companies, media and culture, law and accountancy firms, airlines etc all add to the English economy.

      Though of course financial services remains a key part of it and alongside New York and Hong Kong London remains one of the key financial centres in the world

    309. HYUFD says:

      Dr Jim More that she does not want to leave her partner and home and family and new baby who are all based in Edinburgh. Plus independent or not independent First Minister of Scotland will always be a pressured job, just not as high pressured as UK PM, just as the UK PM while a high pressured job is still not as high pressured a job as US President. It is all relative you see

    310. jfngw says:

      Interesting all the sympathy for Davidson, who is in charge of nothing but a few MSP’s (the MP’s basically ignore her). She is very brave, they say, but this bravery evades me. This compared to the pressure on Nicola Sturgeon, under constant media attack, or even Theresa May (I don’t hold her in any regard politically but I can sense she is under pressure).

      In fact Davidson has had the easiest ride I think I can remember in politics, I would struggle to come up with one negative story regarding her.

      If to be iconised all you need is to get over an serious illness and declare that you don’t want to be PM then I also fit that bill. I await all your adoration, lay it on thick, I can take it.

    311. Reluctant Nationalist says:

      Get dis fukin glish cunt OUTTA HERE NOW before I split my screen in two.

    312. Hamish100 says:

      Hi fud,
      Away and have an enema. You know it makes sense. Lol

    313. Legerwood says:

      Will @ 8.49 pm
      “”Various explanations have been mooted, but I think the main one was that the SNP did not put enough emphasis on their continuing commitment to gaining independence at the earliest possible opportunity. “”

      This ‘explanation’ has been put forward time and time again and I am heartily sick of it.

      A few short weeks before the General Election in 2017 Ms Sturgeon stood up in Bute House and set out the timetable for a second independence referendum and shortly thereafter the Scottish Parliament voted to support a second independence referendum.

      Then Theresa May called the GE thus providing the perfect opportunity for ‘we the people’ to show our support for the calling of a second indyref and what did ‘we the people’ do?
      Stayed at home apparently because Ms Sturgeon and the SNP were not talking enough about independence! Really? That’s their reason? The whole basis of the SNP is independence. Every election – local, Holyrood, Westminster, dog-catcher – is about independence. Do they have to spell it out every time especially when the timetable has been set out and Holyrood voted for it?

      But apparently that is not sufficient reason for ‘we the people’ so they stayed at home in the huff.

      Three Unionist parties screaming ‘No to a second Referendum’ and ‘People do not want a second Referendum’. Now how could you prove them wrong? Let me think – maybe go out and vote for the SNP in such numbers that there could be no doubt that people were saying Yes to a second referendum.

      But apparently that is not sufficient reason for ‘we the people’ so they stayed at home in the huff.

      It seems too that a lot of people have forgotten the extent to which the SNP were written out of 2017 GE. The coverage they received in the 2015 GE was way above the normal coverage the SNP usually gets and may have contributed, in an unquantifiable way to their success. In 2017 GE the media reverted to their normal position of practically ignoring the SNP as the graphs in this link demonstrate

      In addition, the interruptions , twice, to their campaigning because of the terrorist attacks. Or that anytime Ms Sturgeon or any other member of the SNP got in front of a camera all the questioning was about devolved matters and their record in Holyrood and little else – in other words a rerun of the 2016 Holyrood elections. Or that the SNP had come straight from fighting the local elections into fighting the GE.

      But apparently that is not sufficient reason for ‘we the people’ so they stayed at home in the huff.

      And by staying home they handed the Unionists a ‘victory that allowed the Unionist to go on for months shouting that there was no appetite for a second indyref and that it was off the table until that is the March in Glasgow. Forty-five thousand people turned out and thus put the Unionists’ gas at a peep.

      See what you can achieve when you get off your backside and get out.

      Everything is about Independence surely to goodness people do not have to hear it said at every turn like weans.

    314. Cubby says:

      Why oh why do people keep feeding the moronic trolls that infect Wings.

      They are like a nasty rash that is spread right through a stream and people keep scratching it and it spreads and looks pretty ugly.

      Just leave it alone – resist the temptation to scratch.

    315. scottieDog says:

      All of which on its own doesn’t add up to a trade surplus. All of which require energy of which of course you have a large deficit.
      The public balance sheet is on the hook for financial services and will be in the next crisis.
      Most endogenous money creation by banks has been to inflate property bubbles robbing purchasing power from individuals.
      If you understand macro economics and not the ‘economy is a household’ bollocks you understand that aggregate Spending = aggregate income.

      Of course london and the SE yield the highest tax. Tax doesnt create money, it simply turns over money already in existence. Thsee £s taxed started out as bailouts. The govt picks winners alright and they sit in the city.

      England will always run twin deficits. It’s manufacturing industry was decimated to give way to a ponzi scheme.

      Wealth is real resources, not IOUs.

    316. K1 says:

      ‘Robert Peffers says:
      16 September, 2018 at 10:43 pm
      @K1 says: 16 September, 2018 at 8:37 pm:

      ” … Right I’m now ‘trolling’ Rev.
      I wrote to you Stu, on the contact form on the 3rd of September and this is what I said:”

      Bloody hilarious: K1 with a lengthy comment that has absolutely nothing to do with Scottish Independence, nor Scotland, nor politics nor of anything of any note really except complaining about other people who are at least commenting upon things, even if in debate with a unionist numpty, that are directed at matters associated with Scottish independence’

      Aye Robert. I’ve done nothing but debate wi Hufyd on all things Scottish Independence…at great length. Ergo my complaint.

      Hey ho. Enjoy yer debate Robert.

    317. Liz g says:

      Robert Peffers @ 10.43
      RE. K1 @ 20.18 & 20.37
      That’s no exactly fair Robert…
      K1 has taken the time to demonstrate that the Numptie has made it clear he is taking inspiration from Ruth the mooth and will be “going in hard for the Unionist Cause”…
      And that he has every intention of doing so here on Wings.

      Well, we are no here to facilitate or entertain the British Nationalists as I suspect neither are you ?
      Aye,I would agree to debate, if,there was any kind of debate going on, but that’s no what’s happening.
      Hi fud is just making statements continually to everyone.
      As I have pointed out… a typically British strategy…. use other people’s resources because they cannot manage alone!

      He is here to make statements and if responded to just keeps on making them!
      That is affecting the flow of any conversation on the site.
      Which in turn (considering the value of this site to Indy) has everything to do with Scottish Indy.
      His outbursts tell us nothing about the Unionist point of view, which is the only thing of any real value to us here!
      A fan of Ruth the mooth and her methods are all we know… and K1 is right to point that out .. as it dose indeed have a thing to do with Indy, I say..

      He got polite debate when he first showed up and has abused that ever since, a student of Ruth the mooth right enough.
      k1 has followed the Revs instructions and is being up front about it, and deserves our support.
      This is about Wings… and if that’s not about Indy… I don’t know what is…
      What say you Robert?

    318. Albaman says:

      K1@ various,
      If the Rev gives HY*** enough rope, the Ref will “hang” him.

    319. Robert Peffers says:

      @jfngw says: 16 September, 2018 at 9:00 pm:

      ” … He’s hanging around because people are rising to the bate, if you ignore him he will go away. Trolls get bored when they are ignored.”

      Well no they don’t if they are being trained and paid to be here by the Westminster Establishment. Westminster didn’t set-up the 77th Brigade to disrupt the IRA. They set them up to hound the Yes Campaign.

      After all, besides the Brexiteers the biggest threat to their precious union is the Indy movement. These guys are not trolls they are trained UK operatives and will not react like the old fashioned trolls who just got fed up.

    320. Stephen McKenzie says:

      I have never been good with crosswords or anagrams so I am afraid the Times Crossword will always remain a mystery to me.

      However I am trying to work out HYUPD. I am sure the last two are Prick Dystrophy. Can anyone help?

      Best Regards Stephen

    321. Cubby says:

      Wull@ 7.10pm

      ” we’ll be keeping at it until the job is done”

      Spot on . A great statement.

      Even if Salmond or any other politician did mean to say as a promise that it would be only once in a generation ( and I don’t believe that was the case) they have no right to bind us to that. The Britnat media will always just tell lies whatever.

    322. Stephen McKenzie says:

      Oh bugger its HYUFD.. not HYUPD..

      Ok start again is the 4th letter Fanny?..


    323. Cubby says:

      Stephen @12.03am

      Hi Stephen a friendly word of advice. If you look at the words above the posting comments box it says in caps do not sign your comments. You may find some hammers coming your way.

    324. Liz g says:

      Ledgerwood @ 11.30
      I am afraid that you might have answered yer own question there.
      It’s looking very much like the main body of the electorate do “need it spelled out every single time”, but and it’s a big but… I think the SNP were right not to do so in 2016.
      It didn’t really cost them the election… and we have to remember that people turned out in 2014 because they really believed their vote mattered.
      The SNP couldn’t promise in 2016 that voting would mean anything ( I know it did but not like 2014) they turned out in 2015 and got nothing really, but a Westminster slap in the face.
      That’s probably why the Indy vote has held, they are just waiting on another chance to be makin it count?
      They are all still there!!!

      The British Nationalists did though, they promised loads of stuff, including no Indy ref 2, they still didn’t win, the vote they did get delivered none of it, and the are still stupid enough to claim they won… ie . Why couldn’t they deliver then…

      I think the SNP were right to hang fire… the time to campaign full tilt wasn’t 2016.
      Have a care though Ledgerwood the time is coming to tell people that their vote will really count, and I’m pretty sure that when that happens they will turn out..

    325. HYUFD says:

      Scottiedog Even including oil revenues in tax income, the gap between government spending and income in Scotland was nearly four times higher than the UK as a whole in 2018.

      Plus of course 75% of the Scottish economy is made up of services which is now vastly higher than the manufacturing and primary-extractive industry sectors of the Scottish economy much like the rest of the UK

    326. yesindyref2 says:

      Heed would soon sort him out, him and the BBC gimps.

    327. BJ says:

      Ruth blaming health issues for turning down possible PM job!!

      Best comment “it’s her get out before being found out clause”

    328. Rock says:

      HYUFD says:
      16 September, 2018 at 12:37 am

      “Rock Sturgeon and May are the same type of character, cautious political pragmatists unlike the more passionate nationalist Salmond or passionate Brexiteer Boris”

      You have got it completely wrong about Boris.

      The only thing he is passionate about is becoming PM by any means possible.

    329. Rock says:

      Dave McEwan Hill says:
      16 September, 2018 at 3:57 am

      “Polls have support for independence presently between 46% and 52%.”

      I asked before but you did not answer so I ask again:

      Rock (31st August – “Woodwork squeaks, out come freaks”):

      “I have said it many times before and I can again say with 100% confidence that Nicola will NOT hold an independence referendum before Brexit has been completed.

      Do you have the guts to go on the record and state that there will definitely be an independence referendum before Brexit has been completed?”

    330. Liz g says:

      BJ @ 12.35
      ‘‘Tis a good one BJ..
      But on a more serious note…
      We in Scotland have a much higher standard for our First Ministers… they have to be fit to run Scotland and Ruth the mooth by her own admission is no fit fur a 2nd rate (considering her predecessors) role… then she should recuse herself as a candidate for our First Minister..

    331. Iain mhor says:

      I noticed there was some dung flung about here today eh?
      Including YouGov having ‘Yes’ on 52% in 2014 – Shite.
      That particular poll showed 47-45 for ‘Yes’. There was a weighting within the poll excluding ‘Wont vote/ Don’t know’ that gave a figure of 51% (not 52%) ‘Yes’ never passed 49% in any individual YouGov poll of Indyref voting intentions, nor in any other BPC member polls.
      Quoting individual polls is ridiculous anyway. At best you need many polls over a long timescale and take a mean of the results.

      If anyone is remotely interested*:
      Four years ago during the official Indy campaign, ‘No’ averaged 46.3% and Indy 40.5%. Even in the final week the BritNat mean was only 48.2%.
      However, since the 2017 G.E (On a smaller subset of polling)
      ‘No’ has a mean 50.4% & ‘Yes’ a mean of 41%.
      These figures are a subset of only 13 polls carried out in 1 year and a few do not including 16-17 yr old voters.
      Since 2014 though, polls show a long trend of ‘No’ at 48.2% & ‘Yes’ 43.6% (again, a fair few excluding 16-17yr olds)
      An even longer trend from 2011, to the start of the 2014 Indy campaign period, shows a mean of 48.4% for ‘No’ (It was 46.3% during the Indy campaign) and 48.2% over the 4 years since the referendum. Thit is an overall mean figure for ‘No’ of 47.6%.
      Co-incidentally, 48.2% ‘No’ is identical to their figure from the last ten polls in the closing week of 2014.

      Whether approximately 43% is enough for Indy to push from for a 2nd successful referendum, who knows. There would have to be something of a 3-4% gain over a few months to bring a 47-47% parity. Something in the region of 144,000 votes (based on 2014 turnout) would give Britnats heart failure; I think considering the trend for the last 4 years at 43.6% (and the averahe of 44.1% in the closing week of Indyref 2014) that’s a fair estimate for where ‘Yes’ is at present.

      The Union grabs all its winning margins from ‘Don’t knows, the question is why and will they jump that way again.
      Answers on a postcard.

      *Figures based on a collation of published BPC members polling since 2011

    332. Robert Peffers says:

      @Liz g says: 16 September, 2018 at 11:44 pm:

      ” … That’s no exactly fair Robert…”

      ” … K1 has taken the time to demonstrate that the Numptie has made it clear he is taking inspiration from Ruth the mooth and will be “going in hard for the Unionist Cause”…”

      Aye! Liz g, and that is what actually makes it fair. If, as the guy claims he/she/it, (the initials do not make clear whether the person is a male female of indeterminate), is here to make the Unionist case then the person is not here to troll Wings but to debate with Wingers the case for the union.

      I’ve been at this indy game longer than most and I’ve yet to hear anyone actually make a decent case that justifies the union. To date this one is not going to do so either.

      If the person is genuinely here to vigorously fight the unionist corner then they deserve a hearing and a debate. It is not good enough for Wingers to out of hand, class someone as a troll out to disrupt the cosy wee knitting circle Wings will certainly become if such is the case.

      If the person really is here to vigorously make a case for the union then to date they are not making much of a case. In the first place endlessly chanting false unionist mantras like a child repeating their catechism they had drummed into them at primary school is not making much of a case.

      To make a case you must explain the logic and give cites to proper figures that make sense. When such debate actually takes place everyone learns something – even if what they learn is they have been wrong about something all their lives.

      I once had a strong debate with Michael Heseltine when he was Secretary of State for Defence. I pointed out to him that in the written agreement it was plainly stated that the Government had a legal duty to consult with the Workers, or their trade representatives, on the matters that they were about to enforce without having consulted with the Trade Unions concerned.

      It is a measure of the arrogance of the man, that having just lost the debate, his answer was, “I have just consulted with you”, then he stood up and left the room got in his car and was driven away with an armed escort.

      This is typical of the unionist idea of, “vigorous debate”. To human beings that is not any kind of debate – it is dictatorship.

      Thing is he knew he had lost the debate, we knew he had lost the debate. Yet we had not expected anything better from these Tory unionist arseholes.

      ” … Well, we are no here to facilitate or entertain the British Nationalists as I suspect neither are you?”

      No I’m not, But I am here to debate with anyone the subject of Scotland’s independence and I’m no respecter of rank and privalidge. Neither will I be browbeaten or bullied by anyone. I’ll tell you something else. If I’m wrong I’ll admit it and apologise for my error.

      Let’s put it succinctly – You cannot win an argument if you do not argue your points. You can never lose an argument if you have the better arguments to offer your opponent.

      To date the person has done no more that chant unionist mantras. No proofs offered and no logical explanations given. Put that another way – I’ve learned nothing from the person I did not already know to be false arguments and have not only explained why the points are false but offered proofs.

      ” … Aye,I would agree to debate, if,there was any kind of debate going on, but that’s no what’s happening.
      Hi fud is just making statements continually to everyone.”

      Indeed and has been torn to bits because of that. The person has also been told they have to do better or there will be no further debate. If I haven’t learned anything from what the person is attempting to say they sure as hell have learned that they have, as yet, not made a cogent point and I make no apology for calling it “Pish”. If that term used in that context was good enough for the English National bard, then it sure as hell is good enough for Auld Bob Peffers.

      As I have pointed out… a typically British strategy…. use other people’s resources because they cannot manage alone!
      He is here to make statements and if responded to just keeps on making them!

      Which is the point where the person gets told to either make cogent points and prove them or go and attempt what is physically not possible to achieve. The person has so been told. I may make hard arguments but I believe everyone should be given the chance to make their own hard arguments before being told the argument is over and they lost it.

      ” … That is affecting the flow of any conversation on the site.”

      Well no it is not. Everyone has the right to NOT read any comment they do not wish to read. The very last thing Wings needs is to deteriorate into a wee cosy site with everyone in agreement.

      I personally scroll past those I cannot be bothered with. In point of fact I don’t miss too much because when others I do read comment to those I don’t I get at least the jist of what has been posted – for example I usually get to know what pish Rock has posted as someone else I read is sure to comment about it.

      There is another factor, of course, only by engaging with the opposition will you get to understand how their minds work – except with unionists I’m almost certain their minds do not work very well in the first place.

      As you noted their idea of making a good case for the union is to repeat, ad nauseam, the same erroneous claim under the mistaken belief that if repeated often enough the opposition will accept it as truth from sheer boredom and frustration.

      Failing that ploy they will reduce the term they wish to be misunderstood to it’s initial letters and repeat this until the listener subliminally disassociates the full term from the initials as being two distinctly different terms.

      Such as UK, GB and The Country. All of which they conflate to mean, “England”.

      Aye! I’m wise to all their wee (cough!), innocent foibles – I’ve suffered all of them for most of my lifetime. They basically speak a different language to everyone else but unfortunately it uses the same words and phrases as everyone else – it just means something different from the rest of us.

      I blame the English Public School system myself, but then I blame that for quite a few other evil things that go on, (usually behind closed doors), in Merry Olde Engerlund.

      Sigh! Here was me intending to have an early night. One day I’ll learn to stop what I’m doing and go to bed at a reasonable time.

    333. sandy says:

      Rock @ 12.49 AM

      There are better brains than yours that will decide when Indyref will be held.

      Just stick to the betting shop. (and don’t accept hot tips.)

    334. Cactus says:

      Mornin’ Liz ~

      “That all London and the Southeast do is use Scotland’s resources.
      In his attempt to “promote” his Union..
      He has to piggyback on to a Scottish Indy website..
      Doesn’t “do” the Conservative thing (allegedly) and set up his own blogg, make it wildly successful and make his case..”

      Hmm… mibbies a bit like this Liz..:

      Merry 17th of September Wingers Year of 2018. 😉

    335. Robert J. Sutherland says:

      K1 @ 23:42,

      I’m so glad I found some menial household tasks to do this evening instead of catching up with WoS. So much self-important windbaggery over nothing in the least interesting. (And the precious little that wasn’t, was largely depressing, IMO. I’m surely losing the plot. Sorry!)

      Your good self excepted. I concur with your protest to Stu, though perhaps not in reproducing it here at full length.

      Mea culpa, I have also been slightly guilty in briefly engaging with our malign visitor, but this is getting way too much attack propaganda. Being otherwise engaged, I have been somewhat remiss in not making my own protest to Stu, but hopefully he will attend to it shortly anyway.

    336. Liz g says:

      Morning Cactus
      Yes exactly like that,although Fuder guy will probably argue that’s not true…and….
      Everybody knows that Cuckoo’s don’t need nests for their babies because they all live in clocks….
      Are they an SW1 bird per chance?

    337. Liz g says:

      Robert Peffers @ 1.49
      I think you may have misunderstood what I ment by fair Robert!
      Everyone here can debate with whom ever they please,and for whatever reasons they they think can be helpful… Ofcourse they can… Nae argument there!
      Infact as long as manners are observed,why not?
      But that wasn’t what K1 was demonstrating..

      K1 has found this poster to be potentially disruptive,after, it has to be said quite considerable efforts by a fair few of us to constructively engage!

      K1 then notified the Rev about what was going on,and followed this up by informing all of us about the state of play..
      This was done,the interests of Wings, being K1s stated agenda.
      My assertion to you was that the interests of this site is a
      fair representation of the interests of Scottish Independence.
      Wouldn’t you agree that any poster who attempted to preserve the integrity of this site is indeed conversing on the subject of Scottish Independence?
      If you do,then yes, I do think you should retract what you said Robert.
      We don’t always agree,such is the nature of debate, but I have always found you to be fair,and I am asking you to look again at what K1 was attempting to do and see if you can see that it was very much to do with our campaign….

      Obviously in the even if you have not gone to bed by now… I don’t expect that you will need or want to delve into it all tonight…

    338. robertknight says:

      If some kid in the playground is being a ****, its far easier for the other kids to simply stop playing with them than go to the bother of getting a teacher involved. Said kid will soon get bored and go off to play elsewhere, by themselves no doubt.

    339. sinky says:

      On dead horses what stupid front page in Scotsman based on a silly Labour Party press release.

    340. Nana says:

      On this week’s Full Scottish, the focus is farming, Skye and a 500 mile walk to Edinburgh.
      Lindi Harrison will be joined by NFU Scotland Director, Willie Harper, and Jim Fairlie, the founder of scotland’s first Farmer’s Market.

    341. Nana says:

      1/ A few edits from this Wed’s UK in a Changing EU event on Transition. ‘On 1/4/19 we start talks with US,AUS &NZ & have an agreement by end of 2020, &by 2021 we have an agreement with the EU& we have the FTAs, simple?Anyone remotely believe that is going to happen.

      Brexit: closing the loop

    342. Roger says:

      The UK is now too divided and deranged to be considered a state. It is an hallucination, a form of psychosis. It is a form of mental illness for which surgery is the only cure.

    343. Robert Peffers says:

      @robertknight says: 17 September, 2018 at 4:13 am:

      ” … Said kid will soon get bored and go off to play elsewhere, by themselves no doubt.”

      Well it may be different now, Robert, but when I was at school, a very long time ago, it didn’t work like that. Mind you back then teachers only got involved if actual fights happened and even then usually only to physically punish the combatants.

      What happened in practice was the would be bully went ahead and bullied someone. Then the bully acquired a few others who thought to avoid being bullied by being in the bully’s gang and having succeeded in bullying someone then, with his/her backers they moved on to bully someone else.

      That is until they tried to bully someone who wasn’t going to be bullied and for the first time they had a real fight on their hands and if the intended victim was not going away only then did the bully go off and play by themselves as their little helpers on longer had the bully person’s protection they migrated to the protection of the winner of the fight. If the winner was not also a bully then the playground bullying stopped.

      Bullies don’t get bored and go off to play by themselves – someone stops them and with luck that person is not just another bigger bully.

    344. Petra says:

      Oh well, I see a certain individual has managed to completely take over the site, one way or another, with individuals responding to him (her), talking about him (my last time) and of course there are those who want to use the faux excuse to make vile comments about / to him on here. All in all, not exactly conducive to attracting people to the site and / or supporting independence. Tr*ll or agent, whatever the case, we were told not to communicate with them but rather report them. We’ve done that but it’s not working, so what about behaving like responsible adults, uniting, and ignoring / scrolling on by? This is supposed to be a site that supports Independence and we find ourselves at a critical time in the history of our country, letting this person, a self-confessed Unionist rule the roost on here. He / she must be having a right cackle to themselves about all of this, so FGF let’s just get back to imparting information without the so-called ”help” of this instigator.

      @ Robert …. ”If, as the guy claims he … here to make the Unionist case then the person is not here to troll Wings but to debate with Wingers the case for the union.”

      And you believe him, Robert? Imo, he’s here to totally disrupt the site and clearly managing to do so. Scroll back and take a look. Even his pseudonym is being used to make a mug of us.

      @ Robert …. ”When such debate actually takes place everyone learns something – even if what they learn is they have been wrong about something all their lives.”

      We don’t need him / her to do that for us, Robert. You in fact have been doing an excellent job in educating others on here for years now. There’s also loads of people ”debating / disagreeing” on here on a daily basis (now stopped to debate with him), including those who say they support Independence, when you and I know that many in fact do not.


      Meanwhile the Ruth Davidson saga goes on deflecting from the dark money issue, Brexit catastrophe for Scotland, her Brexit U-turns, disgusting political colleagues, the fact that over 70% of Scots have no time for her and that a large percentage of her ”support” don’t even like her, what she stands for, such as DUP types in Scotland. Stuck with her in other words, using her, to push through their Unionist agenda.

      The BBC is still covering her ‘mental health’ issues this morning (without interviewing), whilst Dirty Money Davidson is seemingly on Twitter making a meal of her ”celebrity’ status. No doubt trying to rack up book sales. Amazing don’t you think that the BBC has covered none of the ”negatives” so far: been telling the truth about her. They couldn’t even get an interview with her, over the last few weeks, as she was in hiding and now she’s reappeared … reinvented herself as a poor, wee, fragile wummin and they’re all over her like a rash. I’m also just wondering why they can report on this issue without interviewing her and yet their mantra previously, such as from Gary Robertson, has been ”Ruth Davidson is refusing to be interviewed by the BBC.” Seems that they don’t actually have to interview her after all to ”make their case” when they are promoting her. C’mon BBC show your ”impartiality” by asking her, for example, pertinent questions relating to Scotland’s future out of the EU. Meanwhile her dirty money dealings will no doubt come out in the wash without your help.

    345. Dr Jim says:

      It’s perfectly legitimate for Ruth Davidson to change her mind says the BBC this morning, which is a pretty odd statement from the BBC who if it were any other random politician would normally call that a *u-turn* or a *flip flop* or a *climb down* or an *about face* but it seems when it comes to Ruth Davidson …it’s all good

      Also this morning the BBC were discussing John Swinneys possible *u-turn* *flip flop* *climb down* *about face* on standardised testing

      These two pieces were ten minutes apart but to be fair to the BBC they did say that John Swinney might be *forced* into any one of these aforementioned scenarios

      I’m sure none of this will have an effect on Mr Swinneys mental health though after all it’s only Scottish politics not as if it’s big time important English politics as the Tory opposition changes it’s mind (which is perfectly legitimate for them to do)and *inflicts* a defeat on the Scottish government

      Anyone like to change their mind on Independence from NO to YES strangely enough the Tories say YOU shouldn’t have that option

      I guess changing your mind is a reserved matter

    346. ScottieDog says:

      But you’re not listening.
      You appear to fail to understand two things.
      The fiat economy (where money comes from),
      The role of tax.

      Scotland for one thing cannot borrow. A deficit implies a stock of debt and a gilts issue for reserve drainage. Where are scottish bonds on the bond market??

      Firstly the revenue from oil should be far higher but the tax regime ensures it all goes to the city and then onto tax havens.

      Next money has to EXIST before it is taxed. Saying that london provides is like saying a lotto winner is self-made. Look at the 10pc deficits run in 2009 to save the city.

      Scotland is now mainly services (as is england ) due tory and new labour policies
      Main difference is that scotland has the real assets, England doesn’t (hence huge Westminster opposition to indy). The only way to balance the economy is to stop having the city spivs having control of it.

      Next, if scotland does have a deficit, then the implication that austerity would fix this s demonstrates a lack of understanding of aggregate economics. Your income is generated by someone else’s spending. If their spending reduces, so does your income. It’s a paradox of thrift.
      You need to stop using the daily mail.

    347. Doug says:

      O/T Saw that STV News were asking on twitter how folk voted in 2014 and how they would vote now. There were a not insignificant number saying they were Yes but now No.

      This stance baffled me and I saw plenty of Yes folks attempting to engage politely as to the reasons why. Of course many declined to answer other than meaningless statements such as “material change in Scotland” or “personal convictions” or my favourite useless “Last time it was heart over head this time no chance”.

      I wondered if anyone in the Yes movement is working on investigating those who claimed to have had a trip to No (passing by those on the journey to Yes).

      I would think we need to figure out why folks have claimed that move to no to understand wm propaganda and how to counter it.

      My great aunt voted no in 2014 vowed to vote yes in Indyref2 but then worried that post Brexit there would now be a border which if there wasn’t a Brexit wouldn’t be needed if Scotland and rUK were in EU.

    348. Hamish100 says:

      As for hallucinations rock was up past his bedtime with fud. Dae they work nightshift or work 5 hrs behind the rest of us? The 2 are part of Davidsons deflect policy. They know brexit has gone pearshape and peopl will lose their jobs as a result of the toriez- and it will get worse.

    349. Coy photo of Ruthie on today’s Scottish Daily Mail? Sicko emoji thingy.

    350. Famous15 says:

      O/T Never thought how ghastly the history ofGlasgow University was until GMS BBC told me it was built with slave wealth.

      So Googled the subject and found most of historical buildings in Athens,Rome,Washington was built BY slaves.

      Slave wealth also paid for much of Paris,Amsterdam,Livrtpool,London etc etc

      But the Scots must suffer most guilt,just because.

    351. Luigi says:

      Iain mhor says:

      17 September, 2018 at 1:17 am

      The Union grabs all its winning margins from ‘Don’t knows, the question is why and will they jump that way again.
      Answers on a postcard.

      “If you are not sure, just vote NO”

      Possibly the most effective slogan of the entire campaign. Not sure that Better Together will get away with that little gem next time however. Lots of bad stuff has happened since then. 🙂

    352. ScottieDog says:

      I always believe that everyone has a chance to debate. It becomes obvious to me quickly when they have another agenda. There was one person on the commonspace comments section. Many attempted to debate but the language of the person – continually talking about ‘separatists’ in every post made it clear what the intention was. It was there to provoke. Commonspace no longer allows comments. I’ll wait n see.

    353. Nana says:

      Defending an Independent Scotland Post-Brexit
      Stuart Crawford and Richard Marsh | 17 September 2018

      Lesley Riddoch says Davidson is brave.
      I say Davidson is a lying, manipulative Tory.

      (NEW REPORT) #Brexit: six months to go – the progress made since the EU referendum and what to expect in the frantic few months ahead

      The European Court of Human Rights has ruled that aspects of the UK’s secret surveillance laws breach the ECHR.

    354. Brian Powell says:


      All the language in those twitter responses reek of plants and fakes.

    355. Brian Powell says:


      The language in the twitter responses smell of fakes and unionist plants.

    356. Pete says:

      Famous 15
      Relax. Just remember we were once enslaved by the Romans and the Vikings.
      No point in going back over history.
      The British Empire did a lot of good things but, hey, times have changed!!
      Glasgow University is a wonderful place. Rejoice and enjoy it.

    357. Gee Whizz says:

      Reports today that over 2/3rds of Scots think Immigration should be controlled by Holyrood !

    358. Nana says:

      Brussels nearing impasse with May over Irish border proposal

      “For the main part, these controls would not have to happen at a border. It is to be expected that the reach of the backstop would decrease anyway in case of an agreement about the future relationship … The solution is specifically phrased for Northern Ireland so that it is not applicable for Scotland. A UK concern.”

      Not applicable to Scotland!

    359. jfngw says:

      @Robert Peffers

      Engage with whoever you want, it just results in many having to scroll past even more stuff. I don’t read his/her comments nor any of the replies.

      If they are paid commenters, as you insist, then why would they ever stop when they see they are having a result. Also seen lots of this type of posting on the indy threads of the Guardian pre-indy vote, if you replied they would just post even more. You could not defeat them by replying, in fact it look more like a team with the quantity of output from some posters.

      I’m more inclined to think this is an individual who is enjoying the thread disruption, compared to the more professional stuff I witnessed on the Guardian.

    360. Shinty says:

      Polls are showing people moving from No to don’t know, not from Yes to NO. So, methinks this twitter twatter is bollocks and/or Twits of the green ink gang.

    361. ronnie anderson says:

      Hud the faith in Nicola . Having listened to Tommy Sheridan ( I had a backend view from the back of the stage ) & his statement he/they will implement the Mandate in October ? Who He Who They Btw that back end view I had He’s still a Arsehole of Scottish politic’s.

    362. Fred says:

      The old Glasgow University in the High Street was demolished & it moved to the new site on Gilmorehill in 1870, long after slavery was abolished. Slavery unfortunately is still with us in one form or another!

    363. schrodingers cat says:

      interesting article in the times (cant and wont link) from someone close to eu negotiations which points out that the eu recognise that the sticking point for any deal (apart from the ni border which is an issue which has been sidelined for the mo) isnt between the eu and the uk but between the various factions of the tory party

      the author also points out that there will be “cues around the corner” from no deal supporters at the tory party conference this autumn. Treeza may supporters are presently warning tory no deal mps of a GE where they would be blamed for a corbyn win…

      this seems a very weak tactic by treeza’s supporters. if the rank and file members support a no deal, then there is a high probability that so will the tory voters, 40% support isnt enough to win euref2 but it is probably enough to win an election.

      if i were a no deal tory MP, my reply to treeza would be,
      “bring it on”

    364. Ghillie says:

      ronnie anderson @ 10.22 am

      Am totally with you on that Ronnie!

      What a daft thing for that boy Sheridan to spout. Best leaving it to the grown ups.

      Nicola knows what she is doing =)

    365. Al Dossary says:

      Interesting link to Shell and ENI bribery Nana.

      ENI and Shell currently are the guilty parties in the “Most expensive oilfield ever”. Kashagan in the Caspian was estimated to have cost $50 Billion by the time it was completed. And then it was shut down due to pipeline failures !

      Perhapse bribery explains why Shell were unwilling to use a local Import agent in Iraq – which resulted in much of the equipment they needed for Majnoon sitting on the Basra docks for months on end!.

      That project also ballooned from $250 million to $2.5 Billion by the time I left there.

      Shell and BP – two of the most incompetent, corrupt organisations that I have ever had the misfortune of working for. Although my present employer cones close !

    366. Jomry says:

      The Spider’s web.

      Richard Murphy describes this as the best exposition of British offshore tax avoidance industry he has seen. Reaches far into corporate business and the British state. Very informative and well worth a watch. The kind of investigative journalism that is a far cry from what we are served by BBC and MSM. Guaranteed to raise your hackles.

      (Apologies if it has already been posted by Nana)

    367. Brian Powell says:


      “Just remember we were once enslaved by the Romans and the Vikings.”

      Ne, we weren’t.

    368. Petra says:

      Great links as usual Nana. Thanks for that (them).

      Nana: ”I say Davidson is a lying, manipulative Tory.”

      No doubt about it Nana and this is more like it!

      As one doctor observed on twitter: “I’ll remember [Ruth Davidson’s mental health revelations] next time a patient has their benefits removed as a consequence of her party’s policies.”

      Lesley Riddoch: …”So, never mind the forthcoming autobiography. If the Scottish Tory leader wants to make her life in Scotland not London, that’s welcome. But disowning a long legacy of Tory cruelty is the thistle she must really grasp.”


      Interesting report. I wonder what yesindyref2 will make of it?


      Looks as though they’re getting their house in order between one thing and another, eh? Got their henchmen (and women) in place. Planning to frack Scotland to death no doubt, by excluding their hunting grounds of course. Scotland with over 31,000 freshwater lakes. England with around 80 many of which are used for drinking water (when they’re not dried up). They, the license holders, must be waiting with bated breath. Another crowd just preparing to rob Scotland blind with no thought given to our drinking water, air quality, general health, whisky industry, fisheries, tourist industry etc, etc, etc. If there was ever a reason, over and above Trident, that I want Scotland out of this Union this has to be IT.


      @ ScottieDog says at 9:21 am …. ”Petra, I always believe that everyone has a chance to debate…”

      So do I ScottieDog but not when it’s to the detriment of this site. The individual in question doesn’t debate; he makes comment, gets a reply and then just moves on to another subject. Never seems to acknowledge that he got it / something wrong. Over and above trying to ruin the site in general, he’s hoping that someone will pick up on (and believe) one of his many pieces of ‘disinformation’. Time is running out for us now, so our whole focus should be on trying to get us much valid information out there ASAP, imo, rather than trying to ”entertain” our guest, who has his own agenda … which is clearly not ours.

    369. Breeks says:

      schrodingers cat says:
      17 September, 2018 at 10:45 am
      wgd nails it…

      Absolutely disagree. That’s one of the worst WGD articles I have read, and I am a big fan.

      Brexit is NOT about Brexit.

      Brexit is the subjugation of Scottish Sovereignty.

      If we roll over and allow Brexit to happen, we are complicit in the Constitutional Subjugation of our country by another.

      Once we are complicit with our own subjugation of sovereignty, it rings hollow indeed to look forward to some future referendum when we hope the sovereignty we don’t respect ourselves will somehow be respected by other people.


    370. Doug says:

      Brian Powell says @ 9:30
      Shinty says @ 10:17

      Fair enough, if it’s nutters/fakes. I just remain concerned that we could need every single vote necessary to not only put us over the line but to put the result out of question/meddling.

      The reason I worried they are real, to provide context my great Aunt (who died earlier this year so I guess it doesn’t matter too much on her opinion). She went from No vote to Yes planned, to wavering because of the fear of a border with England as Brexit looked to go to no deal. There may be others who don’t want to “abandon friends in england” for example and believe we should all be in this brexit mess together – some folks would have stayed with the Titanic given a choice after all.

    371. Nana says:


      I posted a link on the 15th at 8.26am
      No need to apologise, it’s worth posting again and again.

      Last link for today

    372. Dorothy Devine says:

      Doug , I always find the argument of ‘ a border would divide friends and family’ somewhat spurious since Scots were burnt off their land , murdered and starved out, the lucky ones made it to new lands far away but still remained friends and family.

      I doubt if there is a Scot alive who doesn’t have friends or family or both in Canada , Australia , America and every other airt and pairt.

      England is hardly the end of the world and most of us can cross the border in a day – it’s a wee bit trickier with the other aforementioned lands.

      So , whichever silly somebody who spewed that drivel across the media – I’m looking at you Mrs Curran – knew perfectly well they were praying on fears and not on any reality but backed by a disgusting media it became a mantra.

      Time for our own mantra – set Scotland free , vote SNP.

    373. Dorothy Devine says:

      oops! ‘preying’ not ‘praying’

    374. ronnie anderson says:

      Ghillie The Leftist movement are coming to the fore via their various disguises to garner support from the GrassRooters ie in Marches of Auob ect ect , some of us Independenistas aren’t fooled by the slither tongue of the likes of Tanned Tommy , they will oppose the SNP in elections but will fail as they did with the Glasgow Council elections ( not one of Solidarity were elected ). they can provide all the platforms they can to give the Leftists voice but GrassRooters dont turn out for them they turn out for Independence cause .

    375. Legerwood says:

      Liz g says:
      17 September, 2018 at 12:16 am
      Ledgerwood @ 11.30
      I am afraid that you might have answered yer own question there.
      It’s looking very much like the main body of the electorate do “need it spelled out every single time”, but and it’s a big but… I think the SNP were right not to do so in 2016.
      It didn’t really cost them the election… “”
      It did not cost them the election in 2017. I also think, like you, that they were right not to concentrate solely on a single issue particularly when their opponents were keeping the issue front and centre for them

      There were other factors in play in the final outcome some of which I touched on in my original post.

      But if supporters of independence did not turn out to vote and use the excuse that the SNP were not full tilt on independence then that is truly pathetic

    376. Liz g says:

      Breeks @ 11.26
      But Nicola has to govern a Scotland that decided to stay in the UK too Breeks.
      Her mandate is to ask Scotland if they still want to keep the Treaty of the Union if keeping it means we are Taken out of the EU after voting to stay.
      We haven’t been taken out yet!
      It’s not just that some still don’t really believe Westminster will go ahead with Brexit, and the Media are keeping that bit of hope alive.
      But the spectre of a GE or a people’s vote being called if Nicola called Indy ref 2 too soon. Scotland still has many who think, or could be persuaded that Labour in Westminster would be the easy answer.

      Nicola has to also,I would have said,be very aware that Westminster has very little to offer Scotland in Indy ref 2.
      But one thing they could offer,and make ” look ” credible,is a New Vow for Scotland to stay in the EU.
      To keep Scotland out of the same arrangements as N.I. are going to get (see next thread) and then offer it back in a last minute Vow.

      Now you know and I know that won’t ever really get done,but we are not the Scots a new Vow would be aimed at!
      To get the Sovereign Scottish people to exercise their Sovereignty is the problem…
      Not the existence of Sovereignty itself!

      Nicola,I think,has to wait till Westminster cannot halt Brexit and cannot offer Scotland the carrot of some vague EU/CU/SM membership.
      And to really put the tin foil hat on it… a Scotland in Europe but still under Westminster control,may be a backdoor into Europe for Westminster business interests while tax and immigration are reserved… A cake and eat it deal right enough,but Scotland would have to be back firmly under Westminster control to do that.
      We have to run Westminster out of options first,and then say to Scotland here is the Union in it’s purest form are you in it or not….We can’t just “go” on we are not getting our vote respected … People are to habituated to that!

    377. Doug says:

      Dorothy Devine says @ 11:39

      I have no issue with a border – after all we have one with the EU as we fly from one side of the EU to the other. My family remember the border crossings from Portugal to Spain and Germany to France back in the day I know it’s not difficult at all – if it’s well staffed by folks who are trained… Not sure we could rely on the rUK Home Office to be able to handle it as they get so much else wrong.

      But I can understand those who are old and who have never had to drive across a border in their lives being worried about it.

    378. K1 says:

      Thank you Liz, for understanding the ‘gist’ of my motivations for posting my contact letter to Stu.

      I think Robert made a fair enough point. But where I slightly diverge from his view is on the point of ‘debating the exact same ‘points’ over and over again with different posters on such a forum as this?

      For example mostly all of the comments that Hyuf has made since middle of August and that many of us argued with him about, have all been shown to be just as Robert says, utterly without foundation, evidence free assertions if ye will. He has lost the argument about a hundred times since then on the same points repeatedly?

      The tiresome aspect for me was seeing many just getting more and more frustrated with seeing this rinse and repeat, ergo pasting his ‘mission statement’ so that others knew what kind of mind they were engaging with?

      I (half wi humour) posted my lettery thing to Stu to make the point that actually contacting him about such things is fairly pointless as he clearly concurs wi Robert’s reasoning that HYwhatever isn’t a ‘troll’ as such?

      Which again I’m inclined to agree with. What he is is more simply a disruptor of threads.

      I was acting in the capacity of someone: ‘who has debated the exact same points that Robert is now doing with him. Having ‘won’ my arguments, now enlightening others of the futility of going through the same nonsense with this poster over and over again’.

      It’s neither right or wrong how we all see the situation wi this poster. But I do feel I’ve as much right to post what I want in response to ‘my own already existent former engagement with him on here’ as anyone else has.

      I do though wish though that Robert had at least taken the time (I know it was late) to have read my debate with HYFwhatever on the Cereal Offenders thread. I was hoping he would so he could correct my homework 😉

    379. Petra says:

      @ Liz ….. “To get the Sovereign Scottish people to exercise their Sovereignty is the problem …. Not the existence of Sovereignty itself!”

      That’s it in a nutshell Liz. You can see it and I can see it. Some can’t.

    380. Liz g says:

      Ledgerwood @ 12.20
      Yes sorry… 2017..
      I think it’s pathetic too Ledgerwood, why would anyone not turn out to vote?
      But they don’t and we are where we are.
      Tis a comfort to know right enough,that when people see their vote matters ( 2014 ) they do engage and turn out!
      There’s probably an element of Scottish votes never really counting for anything and making no difference at play here… a shame really but there it is..
      Heres hoping it all changes with Indy…

    381. HYUFD says:

      ScottieDog Scotland and England face the same challenges that automation and robotics has reduced the need for most jobs in manufacturing and primary extraction industries bar the most highly skilled and that is also the case for some service industries too, where jobs will be created most strongly is in creative service industries not easily automated. London has a lot of those as does Edinburgh to a lesser degree

    382. Shinty says:

      o/t a wee comment on Broadcasting Scotland.

      The discussion with Jim Fairlie & Ian Harper (?) were informative and interesting, the stage setting with logo in the backdrop looks great.

      However, sorry guys, but I can’t share a broadcast with noise and presenter issues no matter how good the rest is.

    383. Liz g says:

      K1 @ 12.47
      Hi K1,sorry for the delay,I only saw your post after replying to Ledgerwood and had to nip out.
      Yer welcome,and, like you I can see why others will use the fud guy to bounce points off of!
      But in the round it makes the thread a bit of a fud show and gets tiresome..
      I think you were right to draw it to the Revs attention and I’m sure he will keep an eye out,it is a hard line to draw when others keep answering and there’s no personal abuse going on… but I suspect he will cross a line with Stu soon enough…. I’ll bet ye a dram he is no posting here under that name the morning of Indy ref 2….

    384. Fred says:

      Magrit Curran always had trouble with Borders, she lied to her constituents that she was born in Shettleston when she actually entered this world in Clarkston or someplace! Shettleston has the shortest longevity in Scotland, has she taken years off her life?

    385. ScottieDog says:

      “ScottieDog Scotland and England face the same challenges that automation and robotics has reduced the need for most jobs in manufacturing and primary extraction industries bar the most highly skilled and that is also the case for some service industries too, where jobs will be created most strongly is in creative service industries not easily automated. London has a lot of those as does Edinburgh to a lesser degree”

      Two sentence which addressed none of the counter points I made to you.

    386. HYUFD says:

      ScottieDog No they addressed your point that Scotland is not mainly a services based economy due to Tory or New Labour policies but because in most of the western world moat jobs are now in services not manufacturing or primary extraction. Scotland needs to focus on getting workers with the skills to work in growing high skilled and creative service sector industries as especially with automation that is where job growth is going to come

    387. K1 says:

      Listen you jumped up arrogant little…

      Inform yourself about the country you’re snidely inferring isn’t ‘focused’ high skilled and creative sectors.

      We’re not some backward wee region, lacking in skills, time you stopped assuming wi your evidence free assertions that we are all a bunch of ingnorant yokels, you condescending patronising prick.

    388. HYUFD says:

      While not lowering myself to your rudeness, if you had read a word I said you would have seen that I said Edinburgh has a lot of creative sectors as does Aberdeen and central Glasgow but move to the rest of the central belt and the outer edges of Glasgow and that is much less the case. It is a similar story with London and Manchester compared to ex industrial parts of England

    389. K1 says:

      I was not being rude. I was stating an absolutely irrefutable fact. You are a condescending patronising prick?

      There is no disputing this. As for your rebuttal, my comment was specifically related to this statement, there is no other nuance that you now claim in this statement:

      ‘Scotland needs to focus on getting workers with the skills to work in growing high skilled and creative service sector industries as especially with automation that is where job growth is going to come’

      No mention of any breakdown you now claim was your point? Because in that one statement which I was referring to there isn’t.

      As for ‘rudeness’, you are the one who is a guest from a polity that has no say in Scotland’s affairs, who has come on to this site to lecture us all because you are ‘pressing’ your ‘anti Scotland having a say in its own future’ schtick. So you can fuck off wi yer hypocritical holier than thou pish tae.

    390. HYUFD says:

      Those who have to resort to abuse as you have now done have clearly lost the argument, as I said I do not need to lower myself to your level. I said in relation to creative industries ‘London has a lot of those, as does Edinburgh to a lesser degree.’ Scotland had a say in 2014 and voted to stay in the UK, as a result we remain in the same sovereign country

    391. HYUFD says:

      My passport says ‘Citizen of the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland’ not ‘Citizen of the Kingdom of England’

    392. K1 says:

      ‘resort to abuse as you have now done have clearly lost the argument’
      That’s another cliched trope from those who believe that the use of a swear word signifies something inherently ‘bad’ in the other, and then utilise that as a form of snobbish superiority to ‘dismiss’ the other, when ‘they’ cannot address the substantive point the other made.

    393. K1 says:

      You did not make any reference to Aberdeen, Glasgow or Edinburgh in the comment I was clearly referring to when I sent the link to business sectors in Scotland.

      Contracts and passports can be changed. All other independent nations accomplished this and so will we.

    394. Brian Doonthetoon says:

      A quote:

      “My passport says ‘Citizen of the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland’ not ‘Citizen of the Kingdom of England’”

      The United Kingdom is exactly what it says on the box – A KINGDOM. You claim to live in the southeast of England. England is A COUNTRY.

      Your kingdom is the UK; your country is England.


      Why do you feel it necessary to demonstrate the (very rare) ‘English cringe’?

    395. HYUFD says:

      K1 No it is use of swearing which shows the point has not been properly made. I made the contrast between Edinburgh, Aberdeen and central Glasgow where creative industries are stronger in comparison to say wider Glasgow and the central belt. In 2014 the Scottish people decided quite clearly they did not want their passport changed nor the breaking of their Union with England, Wales and Northern Ireland.

      Plenty of former independent unions are today part of wider unions, eg Bavaria, Naples and Venice or the Maharajah states in India.

    396. HYUFD says:

      Brian Doonthetoon England is my ceremonial country only, my driving licence, passport, NI number etc ie the core elements of my national identity all are issued on behalf of the UK government and show me to be a citizen of the UK, the only sovereign nation in the UK.

    397. yesindyref2 says:

      Jeez, there’s no such thing as a “ceremonial country”, there IS a thing called a “ceremonial county” (no r) in England of which Essex is one.

      Someone needs to inform the Kremlin …

    398. Brian Doonthetoon says:

      “and show me to be a citizen of the UK, the only sovereign nation in the UK.”

      It matters not a jot how often you repeat the same falsehood – it will never be a true fact! The UK is the only nation in the UK? Read that again and try to make sense of it. It’s gobbledegook!
      The UK is a union of two kingdoms/nations – Scotland and England. They are both nations and countries. Nothing ceremonial about them, as has been pointed out to you more than once.

      To have “nationality”, it stands to reason that you must have a “nation” and the UK is NOT a nation.

    399. K1 says:

      ‘No it is use of swearing which shows the point has not been properly made.’

      You just generate fantasy constructs regardless of subject matter. There is no veracity in that statement, it is simply another evidence free assertion. This is your signature chatacter flaw.

    400. K1 says:

      It’s as if you want everything you ‘believe’ to be ‘the ‘absolute’ truth.

      You are not arguing nor debating. You’re asserting? You have provided no evidence for any of the fundementally flawed statements that we’ve all repeatedly asked you for, especially the ‘ceremonial’ country nonsense.

    401. K1 says:

      ‘Swearing’ loses the argument is just another case in point. Swearing is in fact part of everyday language. It neither denotes character nor bars validity in someone’s point in debate. It would be more honest to state that you just didn’t like it because you’ve been raised to ‘believe’ swearing is ‘bad’.

    402. K1 says:

      Instead you indulge in a predictable trope/technique invented by others to void debate because ‘swearing’.

      It’s okay though…your typically middle class snobbery shines through all your pish. You merely confirmed the depth of your shallowness. Bye 🙂

    403. HYUFD says:

      Yesindyref2 Actually in Essex we have our own county council which is rather more than England which has no English Parliament or legislative body exclusively for England at all

    404. HYUFD says:

      Brian Doonthetoon There is only one sovereign nation represented at the UN, the G8 and the G20 from GB, the UK, not England and not Scotland and not Wales

    405. HYUFD says:

      K1 I have provided plenty of evidence, the fact you dislike the points does not stop them being true.

      Swearing is a sign of negative emotion overcoming reason

    406. K1 says:

      Is it fuck.


    407. yesindyref2 says:

      Actually old fruit, old bean, the Lord-Lieutenant of your ceremonial county of Essex is Jennifer Tolhurst. There is no Lord-Lieutenant of England because there’s no such thing as a ceremonial country. Have I explained that simply enough for you old chap?

    408. Brian Doonthetoon says:

      “Brian Doonthetoon There is only one sovereign nation represented at the UN, the G8 and the G20 from GB, the UK, not England and not Scotland and not Wales”

      How many times do you have to be told – the UK is NOT A NATION!

      The UK is a unitary state.

      “The United Kingdom is an asymmetrically decentralised unitary state, but comprises England and three countries with devolved governments: Scotland, Northern Ireland and Wales.”

      That’s from,

      You’ll find this in the Oxford English Dictionary:-

      1A large body of people united by common descent, history, culture, or language, inhabiting a particular state or territory.

      Now, I realise your brain must be hurting, to find out that what has obviously been drummed into you your whole life, is a lie. You find it hard to accept that you have been lied to by those whom you trusted.

      How do you think 2014 “NO” voters are feeling now, after all the lies they were told to secure their vote?

    409. HYUFD says:

      Yesindyref2 England neither has its own Head of State (it is shared with Scotland, Wales, Northern Ireland, Australia, Canada and New Zealand), nor its own legislature nor its own police force, nor its own currency or passport. As I said England is a ceremonial country, it has no political reality at all now

    410. HYUFD says:

      Brian Doonthetoon It is the UK which is the state which actually has political power in England, England has no political power of its own at all.

      If a nation is ‘a large body of people united by common descent, history, culture, or language, inhabiting a particular state or territory.’ That covers England, Scotland, Wales and Northern Ireland, as we share similar descent, a common history, the same language and inhabit the same British Isles. So you have just confirmed my point!

    411. yesindyref2 says:

      @HYUFD says: “Yesindyref2 England neither has its own Head of State (it is shared with Scotland, Wales, Northern Ireland, Australia, Canada and New Zealand), nor its own legislature nor its own police force, nor its own currency or passport. As I said England is a ceremonial country, it has no political reality at all now.

      According to your logic, the UK is a ceremonial country, and has no political reality at all now. And the UK Government is not the government of a country as it only legislates on non-devolved issues, the rest are devolved.

      Or the City of London with its own police force is a country, or England and Wales are one single country with joint legislation (not distinct legislature except through EVEL for England), or the Isle of Man is a “country”.


    412. HYUFD says:

      Yeaindyref2 Failure of logic on your part there, as the UK is in the G8, the G20, the UN, has its own Passport and legislature and currency it obviously has political reality unlike England. The UK government is obviously the government for the whole nation just as the government of Germany, Spain, the USA, Australia and Canada are on non devolved matters.

      The City of London does not have its own currency or passport so is not a country, England and Wales do not have their own currency or passport or presence at the G8, G20 or UN Security Council either though Wales does have its own unique legislature in the Welsh Assembly unlike England

    413. Cactus says:

      The horse was already dead on arrival, JRM fired a blankety blank from his pistol.

      It was all staged and a token “ceremonial shooting”.

      G20 is in Maryhill, Glasgow.

    414. yesindyref2 says:

      Dave, I hope you don’t mine me calling you Dave, a set of block capital letters seems a bit … well, nevemind.

      Dave, you’re going all round the houses trying to prove the UK is a country, even doing the G8 and G20 – which by definition means 8 or 20 countries. But there are about 196 countries, so clearly G8 or G20 is absolutely totally irrelevant, a red herring, a pickled strawberry.

      And the thing is Dave, you don’t need to, if you think the UK is a country then it is, that’s the difference between using Latin as the language – and English. Latin is dead, English evolves. If enough people use the word “strawberry” to define a car with 6 wheels, then that is what it is. Think of the blackberry for instance!

      But apart from that it’s an emotional think, the UK is your country, and I came across this with a poster initials SH in the Herald (from England) who got upset thinking of his country (the UK) breaking up. Well, that made me look up definitions of the word “country”, and he’s perfectly entitled to call the UK his country – as are you.

      So basically you’ve gone all round the houses whereas you should just have stuck to your guns. For you the UK is your country, for us (or many of us) our country is Scotland, same as a poster elsewhere I get on well with on another topic. And there are English for whom their country is England, not the UK. And so on.

      We’re all different, and so is our language.

    415. HYUFD says:

      yesindyref2 G8 and G20 represent the world’s largest economies, a comfortable majority of global GDP is represented in the G20 for example. However if you want to include all 196 countries it is of course only the UK which is represented at the UN too

    416. yesindyref2 says:

      Dave, why do you persist with pickled strawberries, when a straightforward approach is so much easier – and infintely more accurate. G8 and G20 have nothing to do with a country being a country. Personally I prefer my strawberries with cream and maybe a little sugar.

    417. Brian Doonthetoon says:

      Hi yesindyref2.

      I think the problem/confusion this commenter has must be down to his fear of the word “state”.

      I’ve pointed out more than once, that the UK is regarded, internationally, as a “unitary state”. I think his nonacceptance of the term is down to the fact that if RT is regarded as Russia’s state broadcaster, then, logically, the BBC is the UK’s state broadcaster, as it is funded by the state.

      This fact makes him uncomfortable so he just blanks the word “state”; it is not a component of his vocabulary or reasoning process. He is more comfortable with the term “country”, which probably makes him feel all warm inside – no matter how incorrect it is.

    418. yesindyref2 says:

      Hi Brian
      I remember some years ago great debates too about the difference between “state” and “State”, with Texas for instance being a state, and the US or UK a State with a big S. Personally using that definition, I’d be proud for Scotland to have a big S for State!

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