The cereal offenders
So this didn’t go down too well on social media last night.
Prof Bueltmann, who’s made her life in Scotland for 20 years, was (as far as we can tell) the only independence supporter to speak at a poorly-attended rally in Edinburgh calling for a fatuously-named “People’s Vote” on Brexit.
Pretty much everyone else on the platform had campaigned for No in 2014 in one way or another, from Gavin “grassroots” Esler to Rory “best of both worlds” Bremner, Ming “freeze out the Nats” Campbell and Malcolm “Medics for No” Macleod.
And when some Twitter users expressed a modicum of resentment at being ordered to get behind the “People’s Vote” campaign by the very people who are responsible for Scotland still being shackled to the UK and therefore dragged out of the EU in the first place, the Unionists got terribly hurt and sniffy.
But the stushie did serve to illustrate the hideously uncomfortable relationship that now exists between the traditional UK liberal left and supporters of Scottish independence, who under any rational conditions might have expected to have had the support of the left in the same way it unquestioningly supports independence for every country on the face of the Earth that isn’t Scotland.
(The other exception is Catalonia, about whose brutal and literally fascist oppression by the Spanish government Labour is still doggedly and disgracefully silent.)
Because let’s face this fact head-on: a second EU referendum and a second indyref do not exist in isolation from each other. Each one damages the interests of the other. An independent Scotland would reduce the rUK’s chances of reversing Brexit, and reversing Brexit would damage the arguments for an independent Scotland.
So those of us who want both independence and to remain in the EU are faced with a situation where we have to prioritise either the fight for independence – which achieves BOTH things – or putting our energies towards a second EUref, which might achieve one but only at the cost of actively harming the other.
What the liberal left is demanding, then, is that Yes supporters and the SNP should meekly drop the thing they’ve campaigned for all their lives in order to help the liberal left, who will then turn round and say “Shut up and eat your cereal you Nazis, you voted No, now is not the time“ when the Yes movement wants their backing in return.
And yet despite this treatment, Yes supporters ARE – perhaps foolishly – still willing to offer their assistance. Our recent poll found that it wasn’t Yes supporters who were the problem. By marginally over two to one they back a second EU vote, while No voters are opposed to one by a significant margin.
But as far as we’re aware, nobody on the Edinburgh platform yesterday opened their demands for support by apologising to Scots for having told them to vote No to stay in the EU, and therefore causing them to be dragged out of it. And nobody (that we’ve seen) has apologised for it afterwards either. A little humility might have been in order.
Because we all know that if Brexit is somehow averted, the UK will return to business as usual. Scotland – which has been entirely excluded from Brexit negotiations – will be told to get back into its box again. The UK will continue to get whatever England wants, and if the wee diddy nations don’t like it, well, they can just get stuffed.
There will be no quid pro quo. Having helped the UK stay in the EU – which doesn’t impose governments on one member state because they were voted for by another, and which allows member states to leave any time they like – Scotland will be ordered to remain as the ignored junior partner in a union which DOES impose unelected governments and DOESN’T grant Scotland the freedom to leave if it wants.
None of the Unionist parties have said “Okay, support us in getting in a second EUref and fair’s fair, we’ll let you have your second indyref, because we’re not afraid of democracy”. They continue to simply brazen out the massive hypocrisy and demand that Scotland – whose Parliament has already exercised its democratic mandate from its people to rule in favour of a new independence vote – can just bloody well lump it.
(Bremner and some others, we should note, have said that they personally wouldn’t object to another indyref, but since none of them have any power to actually deliver it that doesn’t count for a whole lot.)
“People’s Vote” Unionists are allowed to be hypocrites if they want. It’s a free-ish country. But to then whine like a bunch of hurt babies when a few folk tell them to ram their one-sided demands up their hoop is really pushing their luck.
I agree the second Brexit referendum is a threat to IndyRef2. But we don’t count.
Fuck ’em. That’s what I say.
They don’t see us as a nation Stu,
Scotland isn’t a partner in the UK Scotland is part of the UK
You’d probably have to test this by polling to prove it but I’d be shocked if a substantial number of Yessers who say they want a second EU vote aren’t just petrified that we won’t take the chance to have an indyref quickly enough to avoid being left at the mercy of whatever the Tories have got planned for us all after Brexit.
So, it’s a ‘whatever avenue to avoid that, please!’ scenario, although I personally don’t see an second EURef as a solution to this at all – it’s effectively an issue with Scots (especially Yessers but Remainers too, if only they understood the effect of what saying ‘we can’t trust those who rule us to do a Brexit that works for us all REALLY means about what they think about UK rule!) having no trust in rule from London, and there’s only one way we can really say ‘we’re not having any more of that!’.
Its hard tae say whether its their baws or their heids that swinging sometimes
Personally, I’d prefer if they all jumped in the effin sea.
Tired of being treated like the under stairs maid, ignored, belittled, kept in servitude while they demand loyalty regardless.
More sweary words here &&&&, &&&&, &&&&&&&&&&&, pricks…
I really, really, really want Brexit to be stopped. It will seriously harm Scotland whether or not we stay in the UK.
But the sneaky, lying, fake-news unionists like Esler, Bremner and Campbell coming to Edinburgh to tell us to get behind them? Sod off, what a nerve.
The People’s Vote organisers have made a huge mistake here, they should admit it, apologise and move on instead of attacking the indy movement that they’ve grossly insulted.
“You’d probably have to test this by polling to prove it but I’d be shocked if a substantial number of Yessers who say they want a second EU vote aren’t just petrified that we won’t take the chance to have an indyref quickly enough to avoid being left at the mercy of whatever the Tories have got planned for us all after Brexit.”
I’ve read that five times now and I’m still none the wiser 😀
Well said Stu.
Scotland has passed judgement on Brexit – we emphatically reject it. So why would we want to say the same all over again just to be ignored all over again should England vote to leave, again?
It’s England that needs to make its mind up about what it wants.
Scotland (and NI) need to make our own minds up about where we go. The ‘union’ which we need to consider is not the European one!
The hallmark of British Nationalism, in all its forms, is hypocrisy. So the pro EU faction want another referendum on a very weak argument, yet Scotland mustn’t have another referendum when everything has completely and utterly changed! BritNats don’t do irony or self awareness!
Very well put Rev, Scotland is but an after thought, in the grand scale of unionist ideals.
No, it didn’t sit well. Mind you, being patronized never does really. Also? No, there apparently were no apologies on offer.
Scotland requires only one ballot to solve two problems. One of the side benefits being the removal of day trippers who reckon it’s ok to patronize the locals.
You help our cause whilst we ignore yours would be their slogan.
Scots should waken up to the fact that they are constantly being used.
Let Brexit come. Every day converts another NO to YES, and when the shit really does hit the fan, it will be a landslide for Indy because nothing will be any worse than what Brexit will bring.
I am heartily sick of being inclusive when it is always to benefit other interests, and never our own
Chase them. It’s the patronising that sticks in the throat.
I won’t be convinced until a famous Irish Rock star with tax dodging experience promotes it
EU2 anyone?
Sorry, couldn’t resist it, being an arse.
Think of the Berries
Can`t help but think the britnat luvvies,and various assimilated Uncle Tams, from dan saff still believe us to be painted heathens that need the protection and blessing of the Brutish English Empire,
this quote (Desmond Tutu) is still relevant to our natural resources,
“When the missionaries came to Africa they had the Bible and we had the land. They said ‘Let us pray.’ We closed our eyes. When we opened them we had the Bible and they had the land.”
So sick of this shit. So when do Dan Snow and Geldof get their “better tell the jocks what to do” bandwagon going?
They literally can’t see what they are doing, and if Scots can’t see through this crap, hell mend them.
A lot of very sniffy celeb Britnits on Twitter right now.
Remember, a jock voicing a strong opinion will be deemed “abuse”. Prof Bueltmann has already compared it to Brexiteers.
Thanks Stuart.
Those on their soapbox in Edinburgh yesterday clearly expected Scotland to just say, ‘oh aye, fine, let’s get behind you who shafted our country in 2014, because we should love the UK’.
Bizarre.
I posted this on the previous article, but relevant here. I saw the ‘peoplesvotescotland’ twitter claims of ‘abuse’ last night.
Looks like the ‘peoplesvotescotland’ so called, remainers on their soap box in Edinburgh yesterday, were there to distract from the huge Dundee independence march, I knew it would feature in the news.
‘We love the EU because we love the UK’. Scotland get behind us, or you are being very selfish and abusive for not, on twitter.
Scotland owes England nothing. Scotland has been treated appallingly for far too long, tolerated it, and is now expected to stand with those who lied about the EU during our referendum in 2014. I do not think so!
English celebs, you have millions of people you could be shouting at from a soap box, why on earth come to Scotland to tell us we should ‘love the UK’!
Having lived in Scotland for 300+ years, the ‘UK’ has clearly not ‘loved’ Scotland, but kept her poor and begging. That’s abuse, not love.
Scottish people have been incredibly patient, and forgiving, now they see how this ‘love the UK’ has conditions attached to it, ie we keep taking your oil, your revenues, house our wmd’s on your doorstep, etc, and you will continue to shut up and put up. Elected majority of SNP MP’s? Ha ha Scotland, we vote and you get what we want, lolz!
Scotland has to be a bit selfish now, it’s a matter of survival, it’s that bloody simple!
England sort yourselves out!
When they say People’s Vote they mean English voters only because they argue the English have changed their minds about Brexit and so PeeVees are now demanding a second referendum as a consequence. Scots also realise our votes and voices don’t count in the UK as promised in the 2014 independence referendum and hoped they would be in the 2016 EU referendum.
My advice tell the PeeVees like Bremmner, Esler and Campbell to get stuffed. IndyRef2 or bust, even if that means a No Deal Brexit.
Why on earth would anyone want to participate in this ridiculous, in my view, People’s vote?
Who voted in 2016 … Badgers … squirrels … dugs … cats?
Feartie has already said numerous times (yes I remember too that she said she would not hold a G.E. 😀 ) that she will not hold another People’s vote so this calling for one is nothing more than a pile of old shite!
Anyway Westminster does NOT listen to Scotland. WE are ignored by WM. WE are also ignored by and large by the people of England as well!
The people calling on us to support their call for a People’s vote are the self same people, by and large, who LIED to us in 2014. Sorry Bubba, YOU lied to me in 2014 … until such times as YOU apologise for LYING to me and make serious amends for this I will NEVER support you and your People’s vote shite!
Sorry if this appears twice but I think I messed up the link the first time (or the Rev censored it, I’ll wait and see).
It’s how referendums work in the UK.
link to youtube.com
Labour Party = self serving hypocrites.
If just one of these people coming up to tell us how to vote and, more importantly, why we should vote a certain way could step back and look at themselves.
Just think of the effect a bit of humility, an admission they got it wrong in 2014 when the consequences of a NO vote were clear to so many. Just think how they could engage instead of telling us off for not being compliant and grateful for them wafting across the border now and then.
If just one of them said they had been wrong or that they would support another Independence vote no matter what, please support a People’s Vote for the EURef, then they might get a better reception.
Tanja Bueltmann has supported Scottish Independence in the past, was it just because it suited her pro-EU agenda? I cannot understand why she would be so shocked at the Better Together message being so vehemently rejected if she had any understanding of Scottish Politics.
I posted this on another thread. Just seen Tanja B is still extremely defensive and unaware of how much offence her promotion of the BT message has caused. Is she saying her support for Scottish Independence is now equivocal because she has been challenged and that others feel the same? Way to go Tanja, how to lose friends goes both ways!
Oh deary me, Malcolm McLeod has alot of words to eat. I was not at all impressed by one article in particular that he wrote.
Has anyone asked this man, who’s heart I have reason to believe is in the right place, if given the events since 2014, has had reason to chance his position on Scottish Independence given what is happening to the NHS in England and will soon be visited on the Scottish Health Service?
Malcolm McLeod is a qualified doctor. That takes quite a bit of studying and some kahunnas. I would like to think he has the strength, intelligence and self awareness to reconsider his position now.
EURef2 is a bit academic. As things stand, neither Tories nor Labour parties support it.
The Tories never will. Their membership want Brexit, and want it hard. Their MPs will fall in line.
If TMay falls, she will be replaced by someone the membership wants.
A General Election would seem a more likely scenario than an EURef2 and if the Tories stand on a mandate to push ahead with a hard Brexit, the FPTP voting scam could give them an increased majority.
That assumes an indecisive Labour. If Corbyn adopts a Norway Style Brexit and campaigns for that, then FPTP will deliver for Labour IMO.
I think EURef2 improbable.
However, that doesn’t negate the damned cheek of its proponents riding rough shod over Scottish democracy! Still, BritNats can’t help being BritNats!
‘I’ve read that five times now and I’m still none the wiser ?’
Hi Stu, what I meant was that some Yessers are probably in favour of a second EURef vote simply as it is another avenue by which to avoid being left at the mercy of the Tories (and that it is ‘insurance’ in case we don’t go for an indyref quickly enough to avoid that).
For others, of course, it will simply be a matter of principle/ But it might be interesting to know how many would want a 2nd EURef in the (as yet admittedly hypothetical) situation where indyref 2 was already happening.
Just beyond comprehension. Scotland voted to stay in the EU. Despite the cheating and lying by Westminster unionists and the Leave campaign.
Scotland needs another IndyRef because of the cheating and lying by Westminster unionists, especially about EU membership. These EU supporters do not support EU support for self governance and self determination in Scotland. Cameron’s EVEL demands the next day. Appalling hypocrisy.
The LibDem/Condems facilitated the Tory EU Referendum. Total hypocrites.
[…] Wings Over Scotland The cereal offenders So this didn’t go down too well on social media last night. Prof Bueltmann, who’s […]
Catching Sky News, apparently Farage is considering a return to campaign to stop another EU referendum.
He, who has arranged German passports for himself and family, he does not do irony does he.
Mogabee says “Personally, I’d prefer if they all jumped in the effin sea”
Big smiley thing!
Re brexit ref 2
It’s likely been mentioned here before but what would the outcome of a defeat for may’s deal be? stay in or leave with no deal ?
Anyway, we will only have a vote if May thinks she can win it.
That means labour on side or at least not opposed.
But let’s see, ‘still too many unanswered questions’ 🙂
Having a look around twitter regarding these people’s vote tweets. It’s amazing how quickly when you disagree with them it turns from the pre 2014 love-in to the ‘you just hate the English’ when you are not persuaded by their weak arguments.
I have already voted to stay in the EU, I don’t want another vote. I also expect the Scottish Government to take heed of this vote in Scotland and make sure the sovereign wishes of the people of Scotland are honoured. After all what is the point of being sovereign, having it ratified at Westminster, then still having the wishes of the majority ignored.
And for those that claim their Remain vote wasn’t a endorsement for independence, well they have no such qualms using peoples No vote to take us out of the EU despite remaining was one of the No promises.
Can you imagine the British Nationalists foaming at the mouth if Scotland’s Yessers went to London demanding a second indyref after the Smith Commission betrayal?
If we don’t take the initiative, others will.
QED.
Lolz re my comment, I am getting on a bit but haven’t lived in Scotland for anywhere near 300 years! It’s more like 30, oh dear! Still the ‘union’ has been for over 300 years,and it’s time for England to let go.
Humility? Unionist apologising for something? Pigs flying?
Rory Bremner ?, heard him denouncing the idea of Scottish independence, he came across as a very,very committed unionist, (well most of his work is tied up in England) .
I was disgusted at the way he belittled Scotland, when the time comes for our referendum on independence, mark my words, he will be very,very vocal in his condemnation of the very idea.
So, unlike last time we MUST immediately counter such outbursts, from the likes of him, and Broon, (aye they’ll drag him back out of the woodwork) and do it in all the media outlets available in this day and age.
One of your most important analyses ever.
It’s really simple folks – do you want independence or not? Everything else is a distraction by those who want you to lose sight of that because it doesn’t suit their agenda. For everyone’s sake, don’t let this ridiculous smoke screen be The Vow2.
This is why we pay your wages.
Outstanding cut to the chase
Every step of the way England has buggered this up, they never listened to Scotland when we said *we’d like to remain thank you very much* they said we were unpatriotic, now if we don’t do as we’re told again we’ll be unpatriotic again
It seems that no matter what Scotland says or does at any given moment it’s the wrong thing at that same given moment and England doesn’t listen anyway except for when they say *we’re listening but only if you agree with us*
Scotland, you may take no part in our decisions says the Big England but we insist on your subservience which we’ll call agreement but we will not hold it against you (normally) and if you do as we tell you then we won’t do anything bad to you (normally)
Folks of Scotland, England is a failed state because the poor sods down there only have one political party (who pretend to be two parties) to vote for so they’re stuck between a Tory lot who are arguing with each other as to how to get their arses out of a bad situation without looking like arses and a Labour lot who are fake arguing with themselves for as much bad publicity as they can get because they don’t want the job of being the government who gets the blame for the massive con perpetrated on the people of the big England and then to go down in history as the party who delivered the most poverty since the black death
There are people in Scotland who will vote for anything these two idiot parties promote because they’re the Unionist party and they will tell their supporters they’ll make sure that only nasty Scottish nationalists will die of the black death but the Union will endure, but it won’t, the black death like the flu generally only affects us, I’ll put money on it now Jacob Reese Mogg and chums won’t be afflicted by any of these maladies
Buy Brexit (Made in England) *wee flag*
Scotlands votes condemn the UK to **********make up yer own headline
Take nothing to do with these clowns
On the bright side.
They would have to get an EU visa to visit Scotland as an independent EU member.
Isn’t this discussion of a second EU referendum a waste of time and energy? The Lisbon Treaty Article 50 seems pretty unequivocal about the process of leaving the EU – send a letter then negotiate to tie up any loose ends. Nothing about stopping the process, only a possibility of extending the negotiating period. It is an easily read document, just six simple clauses mainly of single sentences, check this link:
link to lisbon-treaty.org
P.S. As for “Ming” the has- been ought to stay where he belongs, on the waste “bing” !,
I’ll screen if I hear him mention federalism again, it was a dead issue way back in the 1910 era, as a result the corpse today stinks to high heaven.
Scotland is a region, a word, and to the British, not a nation, the point they miss is ‘a union based on threats is not a union’. Their inability to genuinely change the political system, it’s inequality and farcical media, is bringing about the death of their ‘union’.
The people of England are the only ones who can change this, but because the LabServativeDems are a major factor of the British establishment, then the people of England have no choices.
If I was from, say, Yorkshire, or Cornwall or Devon, I would want a regional parliament to bring about better governance, the German model is very successful. Scotland’s social and political culture is vastly different and if Scotland is left in the UK without the EU, then many people here fear the historical abuse that the British establishment will carry out in order to destroy Scotland and it’s annoying differences.
The unionist movement in Scotland is largely made up of Tory Toffs or mindless thugs, we know who will get who to do what after Scotland is pulled out of the EU.
To those in Scotland who voted ‘No’ in 2014 then voted ‘Remain’ in 2016 and who now feel aggrieved at the prospect of Brexit; Rory, etc…
In 2014, you voted to hand the electorate in England the power to determine your country’s future.
In doing so, you forever forfeited the right to complain in the event that the electorate in England voted in a way which directly contradicted your own wishes and/or the wishes of the majority of the electorate in Scotland.
Now we see with Rory, etc. not so much a case of wanting to have your cake AND eat it, but more a case of having given your entire cake to your neighbour, then watched as your neighbour fed it to the birds, you decide now the cake has gone that you didn’t want your neighbour to feed it to the birds and would rather you and your family had been able to enjoy it.
YOU HAVE NO RIGHT to complain about what your neighbour did with the cake and you certainly have no right to complain about those who said to you at the time that giving your cake away was a bad idea.
So, having given ALL our cakes away, Rory and his Better Together chums will have to join the rest of us down at the Great British Bakery for a big helping of Unionist Brexitcake, because without a slice of Indyref2 that’s all there is and all there ever will be!
There were parallels between our two referendums, IndyRef and EURef.
1. Come polling day the choice in both was confusingly about two change options. A good clear referendum should be change versus status quo. Neither offered that.
2. The winning options were very badly defined in both.
However there was one massive difference! The winning side in both made woolly undefined promises, yes.
However in IndyRef the BetterTogether enhanced devolution promises could have been delivered, they weren’t outlandish nor unrealistic. They were believable. They were achievable. (Though, those of us sceptical about WM never expected their delivery!)
In EURef, many of the promises and visions sold were never achievable. And that should have been obvious to anyone who cared to look around. It wasn’t a matter of trust, it was a matter of stupidity!
So why does that matter? The Scottish situation is about the system failing to deliver on devolution, but could have. The Brexit situation is about the system trying to deliver something which is at best a shit show and at worst simply undeliverable. The two are intertwined and puts the arguments for Indy on a much stronger footing.
Why don’t the Scottish Lib/Dems and Wullie Rennie get right behind Scottish Independence which would almost certainly guarantee their EU Citizenship.
Les Wilson says:
19 August, 2018 at 12:56 pm
“Catching Sky News, apparently Farage is considering a return to campaign to stop another EU referendum.
He, who has arranged German passports for himself and family, he does not do irony does he.”
Les, his attitude to irony is similar to yours on the use of question marks
They really are following the abusive marriage theme, aren’t they? We look like we might leave and they lovebomb us with all the “better together” bollox. So, like millions of abused spouses before us, we say, OK, we’ll give it another go, it’s been a long time after all.
And immediately we give up the power, it’s all EVEL and Brexit and STFU, Scotland. It takes a wee while, but we start again to gather our resources to leave and we’re told we made the decision to stay already, we’re selfish and don’t love them enough to support them – classic DARVO!*
The next part of the script is where we tell them we’re leaving anyway. That’s when they get really dangerous.
*DARVO: link to en.wiktionary.org Acronym of “Deny, Attack, and Reverse Victim and Offender”.
Farage is back to split the Tory vote so Labour will win and get the blame for everything.
So do I think there will be a GE soon. YES
If there is, the SNP should say as this is a advisory vote for independence.
REV Posts almost always good – but this one FUCKING NAILS IT – it cuts like a HIGH POWER LASER
I have hated the Guardian for a long time = The Daily Telegraph + virtue signalling (“girlpower” and a “be nice to poofs” stickers)
Steve Bell who seemed to stand alone against Thatcherism in those dark times, he is also a cunt. “nationalist” and “socialist” … equals … a fucking cheap shot for a “top level satirical cartoonist”
Georgie Galloway – don’t get me started – “A HOMELAND FOR THE PALESTINIANS” (fair enough!) … but not for the Scots. Too wee, too poor, the currency, the oil will run out … the working class of Glasgow have more in common with the working claass of Liverpool … all the usual shitey waffle peddled out (- you should have seen him on Max Keiser in 2014, Max was baffled)
Ostensibly the Guardian should support the SNP and independence, in terms of its policies … instead you get the phlegm spittle and crazy eyes of Michael White, he of the intimidating moustache – and we all know the reason – the Empire and all its scams and crimes, the runoff, the “trickle down” means that all these London arseholes, especially journalists – all have a nice slot in the corporation, even if they pretend to be against it.
The English RIGHT stab you in the front, at least – the English LEFT, stab you in the back. Either way, you BLEED.
Just to be clear any “independence supporter” who tries to big-up Corbyn – you need to slap them down, immediately.
The sick irony is, for all their passion, none of these LUVVIES have any “skin in the game” – their money will be stashed safely in “tax efficient vehicles” and they have second homes in the Dordogne and Tuscany – the “shit hitting the fan”-aspects of Brexit will not touch them.
The hypocrisy of these arrogant and ignorant British nationalists is truly sickening. They just don’t get it. They screw Scotland and demand an apology from people in Scotland!
To hell with them! It’s not Scotland’s job to clear up England’s mess.
So let’s say England votes by a much smaller margin to LEAVE but a bigger REMAIN vote in Scotland is just enough to swing the overall vote to keep England IN the EU–what would we be told then.
Aye–you guessed it. That situation would not be regarded as a UK-wide vote – it would be regarded as the ‘tail wagging the dog’.
And that is exactly how such a second result would be spun by the BritNat media. WM would ensure that England always gets its full English Brexit regardless of how Scotland votes. That’s the simple truth and it will only ever change when we take our future and our lives into our own hands. Our vote counts only when it is in agreement with that in England.
The problem here isn’t Scotland–it’s England.
We have voted twice to stay in the EU, in 2014 and 2016.
It’s very simple for Remainers, they will have to choose which Union they value more, come indyref2.
Farage now everywhere, which is good for us in terms of how this plays out.
England being warned by Institute of Mechanical Engineers, highly unlikely to cope with more summers like this one.
Meanwhile, 300 poor souls dead in the floods in India.
Unionists bring real meaning to being “two faced bastards”.
Have as many referendums as you like I say. Surely we have argued this before – Referendums (referenda?) On anything you like as often as you like no?
The particular democratic deficit for Scotland though we know all about. Another EU ref, if called,will be pointless in Scotland. Another snap G.E if SNP don’t stand on an Indy ticket, will be pointless in Scotland. Well for Indy supporters anyway.
I’m also uncomfortable with “We said No and we meant it” type discourse I see creeping in from Indy supporters.
“No to another referendum” and “We voted No and we meant it” Sound familiar?
Anyway, yes it’s a complication we need like a hole in the head, yes the celebs and southern politicos are ignorant arses, yes Scotland is just here to be manipulated, so what’s new? Been, seen, t-shirt. – Let’s just get on with Independence. There are three pish easy bites of the cherry coming down the line in the near future. Put a cross in the box.
The irony…The People’s Vote Liberation Army coming up to Jockistan to plead with us to support another EU ‘people’s vote’ Referendum…..cause we, the Scots, we only voted 62% to remain in first EU Referendum vote so like we need some persuasion to want to remain in the EU…doh!
Second Indy ref you say….why ?…you’ll have had your vote…fair and square…facts accurate and promises met….all above board in 2014…nothing to see there….look to the future not to the past Jocks….however see that EU ref….. well in the 2016 EU Ref (the past) lies were told, risks not explained, false promises made and it effects the country we love…what country ?…clue NOT Scotland..
So Jocks get the SNP to commit to being fully on board with SECOND EU PEOPLE’S VOTE …yes we know they have always wanted to stay in EU but THEY are now the problem ….cause they are not playing ball….why are they not complying with our wishes…see Jocks you are so awkward….generating division with this Indy obsession….it was a UK vote Jocks and so will the people’s vote be a UK vote….if the SNP will just stop dragging their feet on this….see we knew you would be awkward…this is all your fault…see if we do not get a people’s vote then Brexit will be the SNP and the Jocks fault.
Am raging again….wtaf is Rory Bremner spewing out…oh fellow Jocks get with the programme help England to sort out the mess England has created and that you didn’t ……you better stay in the UKOK or you will be the enemy and I endorse this message……that my new adopted country will no longer trade with you…..blackmail ? …..project fear ?….no …JUST A true FACT, true RISK , TRUE WARNING AND A PROMISE IN FACT A VOW !……Oh fellow Jocks save the UKOK …..perhaps you could swing the vote for us…..what ? I am ignoring all the broken promises , lies told via non factual information , misleading and false risks given and fake warnings in 2014…..oh and the strong suggestion presented as a FACT in material endorsed by BT that voting No ensures staying in EU……sorry not relevant now….this is more important…this is ENGLAND we are talking about here fellow thick Jocks….stop spoiling it ….as Ruth says “say No to second Independence Referendum” and actually agree with Theresa ‘Now is not the time’…in fact it will never be the time to have a SECOND Indy ref…..get over it…you LOST…Now about this SECOND EU Ref that we want you to support cause we LOST the first one………….
As for Menzies Campbell….oh Leave side told lies…THIS from a man whose colleague on radio stated “ALL politicians lie’…and whose other colleague Carmichael FibDem blatantly lied on national TV….kettle calling pot fecken black !!! And whose party ENDORSED and participated in a campaign of FEAR , FALSE PROMISES and LIES in 2014 to con fellow Scots to remain a ‘part/region’ of UKOK.
And so another sorry UKOK chapter begins where if that region/part ( not country) of UKOK called Jockistan refuses to dance to the BT tune then …what ?………well ……..here’s a thought, naive I know but they might just try persuading more and concentrating their efforts more into the parts of the UKOK that voted to actually fecken LEAVE the EU in first EU Referendum to get THEM to reconsider and agree to a people’s vote oh and this time siding with Jocks and voting to REMAIN in EU ….hmm….just an idea like…..what’s the point of hassling a ‘part/region’ that wants to stay and voted to stay in EU and a political party who currently are government in that ‘part/region’ who also wants to stay and campaigns to stay in EU ….how about concentrating on those ‘parts/regions’ who are still determined to leave …..just a thought….oh and eh the ‘part’ or ‘region’ as you BT mob like to call it ,and as specified by WM’s poodle Fluffy ‘…..they might not need to be involved in your people’s vote cause they have another way to stay….yep….voting for independence and thus REMAINING in the EU…….time you considered that …cause we in Scotland have a people’s vote also…..just not the one you are punting !!!!!!!!!!!!
They make my blood boil with their sense of entitlement and assuming we should drop our dream to help them out. No chance.
A great article, Rev.
I don’t know what is worse, being lectured and condescended to by Establishment shills like Bremner and Esler who happily pooped all over our doorstep in 2014 or being exposed to the sheer, breath-taking hypocrisy of the infantile Left.
“The People’s Vote (except for viewers in North Britain)”.
Transparent planks, the lot of ’em.
SCOTLAND HAS ALREADY VOTED TO REMIAN IN THE EU.
A “Peoples Vote” has happened.
Our decision has been discounted for over two years.
Hypocirites like Essler, Bremner, Ming et al can run to fuck.
Scotland’s Democratically elected representatives have been ignored for over two years.
Let them have a 2nd EU Ref for England and Wales if they want.
We don’t need one.
WE NEED AND INDEPENDENCE REFERENDUM INSTEAD.
Danny at 1.18
And Labour in Scotland as well
I have just sent the following to several newspapers
“In the early years of last century we see the Liberal Party, at that point the alternative party of power to the Tories, tear itself apart on the Irish Question and open the door to being replaced by the young Labour Party. Some of the Liberals supported an Irish Parliament and even Irish home rule and some of it joined with the Tories against it.
We move forward today and see history repeating itself today in the behaviour of the Labour Party in Scotland as it destroys itself . As the Tory government in London inflicts austerity on the UK, attacks benefits to the needy and the disabled, mismanages the NHS in England and starts a privitisation process of it (which has very significant consequence for the NHS in Scotland) the Labour Party in Scotland, formed to defend the people against the Tories, joins with the same Tories in running Scottish councils. It spends most of its time in Parliament and through its influence in the media ignoring the enemy its supporters expect it to oppose while attacking the SNP. It has become a tool of the UK establishment and completely lost the plot. It is hardly surprising that huge elements of traditional Labour support has moved to the SNP and the process is accelerating.
If the likes of Keir Hardie, James Connolly, John McLean and James Maxton and all those other pioneers who provided the fire for a radical vision of a better self governing Scotland were leading Labour in Scotland today I know exactly what they would be doing.
They would be leading Scotland to independence.
Hypocrisy knows no bounds. Just watched Gordon Brown being trotted out again – this time to say nice things about Kofi Annan.
This is the Kofi Annan that declared the invasion of Iraq illegal and an abomination – the invasion of Iraq voted for by Gordon Brown and most of the Labour Party which was in government at the time.
Lest we forget
A people’s vote, but only the one we think you should have.
Yesterday wasn’t about the people, not in Scotland. You’d have to be a gold standard idiot not to realise that Scotland voted comprehensively to remain. It was about getting Scotland’s people to pressurize Scotland’s party of government to get behind yet another UK vote, where ultimately we’ll be ignored in the aftermath.
Oh, and if England and Wales choose a pro Brexit stance again? What then? Do we warrant an apology after that?
As I’ve said before. It seems to me that one ballot, one YES vote and two problems get solved.
Think about it.
England voted to leave the EU.
Let England leave the EU.
Scotland voted to stay in the EU.
Let Scotland stay in the EU.
THAT’S DEMOCRACY.
@ Macart @ 1.59pm
“Oh, and if England and Wales choose a pro Brexit stance again? What then? Do we warrant an apology after that”?
—————————————————————
No Macart no apology…that’s where they then tell us, AGAIN, that it was a UK VOTE……sigh !
The people of Scotland and N. Ireland voted to remain. Why do they need to vote again, exactly?
They can take their idea and stick it where the sun doesn’t shine. I do not trust any one of them and at no time in my 70+ years have i wanted to contribute anything to their UK.
How dare they? They dare because they have zero self-awareness.
I am seriously struggling to avoid writing an endless stream of abuse.
I hope there is no-one who genuinely supports Scotland’s return to independence who has the slightest doubt that Corbyn is toxic. He is an utter, disingenuous hypocrite who, if he had been Russian, would have worked tirelessly to avoid the break up of the Soviet Union. He represents the fascist left. It is no wonder that on Brexit and on Scottish independence he finds himself in the same team as the extreme right of the Tory party. Two cheeks of the same British imperialist arse.
I honestly believe that the relationship between Scotland and England is like that of the butler Hudson to the Bellamy family in Upstairs Downstairs.
He knew all their business,looked after their every need, and was fondly regarded as a trusted and loyal servant.
However ,the relationship only ever had one power in control.
A servant is still, and always will be ,a servant.
We must become masters of our own house.
The demand for EURef2, specifically Scotland to join it,
it gets us back into ‘behave’ mode, do what your telt, we are the bosses.
It wastes time and energy which could be spent on IndyRef2.
If it won, it neutralises our democratic right to hold another IndyRef.
Since Scotland really is the UK’s Cash Cow, my only surprise is at them taking so long to start playing this card. I seriously doubt the timing is an accident.
The Shit part of Brexshit is really coming to the fore now, and likely to be playing big now, all the way… and since there is no good Brexshit, even if they try to damp it down, they don’t have much to combat it with.
Other than Racism… and here’s Farage, come to sing that tune to his favourite audience.
The mad Brexteers, need a no deal Brexit, because all other permutations of membership/deal involve utilising the European Court of Justice… which means the Off Shore Tax Havens will get booked by the EU.
The sane (I use the term loosely) Brexiteers, in Government anyway, never actually had a plan, still don’t have a plan, and still don’t know what it is they want to achieve (other than to cling to power). So Norway, Canada, Canada plus, EFTA, etc there were good bits and bad bits to all of these, but if you don’t know what you want, how can you negotiate to achieve it – impossible.
The EU, come what may, will very likely offer some form of extension. Purely out of self interest, so that they can increase their customs, port infrastructure, etc. But with no serious efforts on the part of the Brits to actually negotiate some form of deal, it will be a minimum extension with no hope of the allowing Article 50 to be cancelled in the long run.
So we have very little hope of a sensible Brexit
We are heading towards a No deal ‘disaster’ Brexit
We have a rabble rousing racist, about to get full TV and media coverage, as he campaigns all over the UK
We have, hippocritical Brit Nat lefties, trying to bring the porridge -ogs to heal (with EURef2 pressure) and if they fail to do so, creating a new group to blame
the UK has very little time to arrange a new EURef2, even if persuaded to do so
We have the weakest PM in living memory, and an opposition leader who may actually be being rather clever and not playing ball by opposing her and Brexit, so that the Labour party can carry the can when the shit hits the fan. Or he may just be a mad Brexiteer too, and totally inept. Either way, without his support a new EURef2 looks unlikely or much more difficult for them to achieve.
And we have the power grab underway
Come 29/3/19 we lose the backing of the EU court should WM start breaking laws
Come 29/3/19 we will undoubtedly lose many of our European friends who have made their homes here. While that vote will be neutral, their presence bears witness internationally.
And we have 5000 unelected and unaccountable, civil servants moving into Edinburgh to take over from Holyrood.
If a hard Brexit results in food shortages, chaos, riots – army personnel in place to deal with same (all of which is now regularly commented upon in the media) I think its likely Scotland will find itself an occupied territory in all but name. And in times of heightened security, information exchanges are the first thing to be clamped down on. Bye-bye wings.
Of course there could be another snap GE or change in Torie leader – which doesn’t really change any of the above. Although it would provide the new PM with an opportunity to ‘look strong’ by deploying the army – Boris cleaning the streets, doing a Victory sign and smoking a cigar anyone?
I wonder what would be the effect if the First Minister was to make it known that in any forthcoming GE the SNP reserves the right to stand on a Manifesto of winning a majority of MP seats = Indy.
I wonder what the effects would be if the First Minister was to knock back all the EURef2 pressure with a gentle suggestion that England and Wales should have another EURef if they want to
(can’t see why this would not be do-able, since they are one entity (sorry Wales, not trying to do you down, just conscious that legally England is recognised as a Nation and Wales its Principality)
but that Scotland had already made its voice known and the current opinion polls support this view.
Anyhow, that’s how I see things at the moment. I honestly thought the pressure for EURef2 would have come a long time ago from the powers that be. More and more I think it is just the other side of the skelpit arse doing its thing, and its all part of the one game plan. Create chaos, send in the army, take Scotland (quietly) by force.
We are so screwed if we don’t get indy.
Macart @13:59:
Nails it. The only reason for them to be spouting this message now is to pressure the ScotGov to put their pet project before indyref2.
Scots have basically signified their will vis-a-vis in 2014 and have also made it more or less plain that if there was a 2nd EURef, they’d support it. So there was no need for that thing yesterday except to try and pressure the FM into not saying anything over the autumn because they want Scot Remain voters to think a 2nd EURef should be put ahead of an indyref.
The involvement of so many leading No’ers from 2014 just makes that even more transparent, as do the witterings of Iain MacWhirter (‘indyref hopes fade….’, says feckin who?’) and the likes of Kirsty Hughes (who knows her onions, I am quite sure, but is plainly pushing an ‘EU Ref first’ argument even though the Parliamentary maths and the timeframe before ‘Brexit Day’ are against its ever happening).
Never heard any of those people calling for a peoples vote on the result of the Myth commission when the two Scottish parties were outvoted by the triple Union party
Do you want more powers Scotland? Oops what a shame you got nothing because we outvoted you by using our own Triple party Union coalition, so tough eh
But they wouldn’t *normally* do that would they
Don’t talk about Scottish Independence talk about this other nonsence we’ve come up with and Scotland said *Duh! OK duh whit is it we’ve tae dae duh!
See we used to do that *normally* but the new normal will be *Aye richt*!!!
Scotland’s awake!
Erm, eh, did we Scots not vote by rather a large percentage to stay in the EU. WTF are these britnats chuntering on about, What are they doing in Edinburgh demanding that we Scots get behind them in demanding another EURef?
Well sorry , but no boys. Scotland already voted, and been ignored. We don’t need another EUref. We only need one ref to sort this, Indpendence. Takes all this nonsense away, we can choose for ourselves which way we want to go.
This problem is not of our making. It’s an English problem so thay can stew in their own juice as far as I’m concered.
Bremner and the rest of your luvvies can do us all a favour. GTF and gies peace.
There is one teeny weeny silver lining to EURef2.
Just imagine England votes Leave by a small margin, but Scotland voted Remain by a large margin and therefore tipped the overall UK total to Remain.
The English Nationalists would explode into a massive hissy fit.
Dragging England against its will away from Brexit and into the EU would give me much wicked pleasure. Boot on other foot, and all that ….
Let us not forget over a third of SNP voters voted to Leave the EU too and some Remainers may be happy with staying in the Single Market or even a May’s Chequers Deal terms Brexit.
Ironically the SNP won more MPs in 2015 before the Brexit vote than in 2017 after the Brexit vote
@ Arthur Thomson @ 2.24pm
How right you are on Corbyn…spot on.
———————————————–
Yes Arthur ,re the People’s Vote Liberation Army’s “self awareness” think it’s more how UNAWARE they are about us full stop, in fact totally disinterested in our perspective in all of this mess…..preaching to us the converted in the hope that we can influence those who they really really should be preaching to 24/7.
“How dare they” indeed….. but they “dare” because most of them have no sense of who we, the Scots, are or indeed any interest in what we want or need….they are no better than the Tory government and would happily , like the Tories, ignore us if they did not once again NEED US the SCOTS to LEAD the way. GTF and sort out this mess with those who generated it.
Chancers and Charlatans.
Am ragin at the sheer audacity of them….”How very Dare they indeed”…..
I suspect many of you like me have been asked to support a 2nd EU Referendum. My line has been to respond by saying NO unless they can give a cast iron guarantee that this time Scotland’s vote, if for remaining in EU is respected and not over-ruled by England if they vote OUT again. As a contributor said above, “Brexit is a problem created in Tory Englandshire by a coterie of extreme right wingers who have a genetic defect called ‘the Hate Johnny Foreigner gene’ aided and abetted by a mainly right wing media where most of the owners live beyond our shores and our Laws. Of course the one exception to this is the EBC whose senior management are populated by establishment place men/women and mostly products of Englandshire Public Schools like Eton etc and Cambridge/Oxford universities.
If this should go ahead I’m going to find myself on the horns of a dilemma on whether or not to break my golden rule that it is my duty to vote but we’ll see should it ever come to pass!
I think it’s a damned cheek these people turning up in Edinburgh on the same day as the Dundee march. Probably deliberate.
And I’ve had enough of luvvies telling me what to do after their 2014 spewings! No more! They are snake oil salesmen.
@Rev. Stuart Campbell says: 19 August, 2018 at 12:15 pm:
” … I’ve read that five times now and I’m still none the wiser.
Aye! And me too but I only needed to read it once to reach a conclusion.
The Dug growls magnificently:
link to weegingerdug.wordpress.com
I know it’s a suggestion which won’t gain much traction, but we should ask Rory Bremner and “The People’s Vote” whether they would embrace the notion of an Independent Scotland, where that Independent Scotland was free to act as a buffer state between the EU and South Britain.
Everybody wins. The EU gets rid of “Rude boy UK “ and all its disruptive tendencies, Rude boy UK get’s the Brexit it wants, but crucially with a trading lifeline through “established trading traditions” with Scotland.
Scotland gets its liberty, the Union is dissolved amicably, even perhaps a degree of gratitude after Scotland magnanimously saves England from economic catastrophe, as a Sovereign European Democracy which facilitates a trading arrangement between Europe and South Britain, and the delicate issue of Ireland “divided” gets resolved when the EU border doesn’t appear either in the Irish Sea or mainland Ireland at all, but actually runs from Gretna to Berwick.
Let’s hear your first impressions on that Mr Bremner. Go on. Make me laugh.
Robert @ 14:58pm:
And what was your conclusion?
Bear in mind that I stated quite clearly that I was speculating and data would be needed to ascertain whether what I thought was correct – namely, that Scots would take either avenue (an EURef or an indyref) to avoid being taken out of the EU and left to the mercy of the Tories afterwards. I don’t think that that’s a particularly shocking thing to guess at that, though, as there is a lot of cross-over between Yes support and Remain support.
As an aside, I was also suggesting that some Scots might not be so harried about a second EURef vote if indyref2 comes first. Again, I don’t think that’s so surprising an observation – it’d be one way of escaping the Tory Brexit mess.
Breeks says:
“Let’s hear your first impressions on that Mr Bremner. Go on. Make me laugh.”
That’ll be a first then.
What in the name of sanity is the point of campaigning for another EU referendum ANYWHERE other than E&W?
The English/Welsh wanted the EUref and have wanted to leave for years.
So without being at all “anti-English”, perhaps the “People’s Vote” luvvies could fuck off back to England & convert the people who live there?
Best of luck with that, apart from a few metropolitan areas England is overwhelmingly racist/xenophobic & tory. Always has been, always will be.
A people’s vote will put to the test how changeable Tories are. Even if not official there would be a push to fall in line with the rUK which might potentially narrow the gap in Scotland. Even if England becomes more pro EU there’s little chance of Brexit being revoked. More probably unofficially there’ll be an appeal to xenophobia in England to not let the dog wag the tail and Scotland decide the issue. Perhaps it’ll be far more official and blatant like the 2015 GE.
The Brexit vote had no set objective and is being used to default to a no deal by a negotiating team determined not to achieve anything. The so called People’s Vote might be touted as a chance to cancel Brexit but if ever agreed to will be used to destroy any deal.If
It might achieve it’s aim of saving the union in several ways.
If by the slimmest chance Brexit is cancelled and Scotland was instrumental an appeal to our sense of honour will be made.
Or by ensuring any official independence date for Scotland can’t happen till after the UK is no longer part of the EU. The chances of regaining EU membership will be played on in any indyref should it be allowed by a Westminster dead set on repealing human rights.
“Why do we let half-educated tenement Scots run our English press ? Because their craving for social status makes them obedient retainers ? ”
John Cleese referring to Fraser Nelson of the tortured ‘anglo’ vowels.
Esler, Bremner, Ming the Michty: ‘Obedient little retainers’ who rely on London for their wages.
WE voted Remain.
England voted Leave.
The UK is finished.
Why didn’t Rory give us one of his famous impressions of Clunking Fist Brown who promised us 100% Federalist Status by 2016?
If anyone’s got this Parcel of Rogues’ e-mail addresses, please send this excellent WoS article to their in-Box.
The UK is dead. Scotland isn’t.
The Brexshit will hit the fan in about 8 weeks time.
Fell free to pop up for the day again when the leaves are giant corn flakes on the pavement, guys.
We shall be the 28th member of the EU. England and Wales, a US protectorate.
George Galloway should have been in his home town of Dundee yesterday.
It was buzzin’.
I’m sympathetic to a peoples vote,I would vote remain again for all the good it will do when faced with overwhelming votes from the south.I realise that even if everyone else outside England voted remain,nothing would change.
I’m sure it can’t have escaped some of those prominent speakers in the peoples vote campaign,that the help given in 2014 to the Vote No to independence side by themselves, emboldened the Consrvatives,and what they threatened would happen to Scotland has actually happened to them. The UK will leave the EU.
The list of useful idiots for the tories just gets longer and longer,from uk labour to ‘scottish labour’,to the liberal democrats all over. The Tories could never have done it without them.
We keep repeating it for a reason. Never trust a Tory.
Auld Rock says:
That would seem fair.
However, that guarantees a Remain win, in effect.
It gives Scotland a veto over Brexit. Given the promises we were given in 2014 about NO meaning we stay in the EU, that all seems sensible and appropriate.
Fair, sensible, appropriate? Nae chance where Scotland as part of this disUK is concerned.
Your point is, however, an excellent counter point highlighting the gross unfairness of this asymmetrical union.
All the “Better Together “ from 2014 are reappearing like rats out of the sewers now they know how shit Brexit is going to be for their little Englandshire . Why the hell should we listen to their lies all over again now that they want our help now when we’ve been ignored since 2014 and 2016 .
Only Indyref2 for us now in Scotland.
Stuart , Just to let you know that I’ve just ordered 2 of your Wings flags ready for 6th October in Edinburgh.
Maybe this clamour from those leading lights of the No campaign that want a second EU referendum might work in the favour of those of us that want Independence.
According to the Rev’s polling 39% of No voters want one presumably hoping that it might result in a Remain vote and Brexit is thereby cancelled.
This has to get their hopes up that there is still a chance of staying in the EU while the prospects of a second EU vote exist. If this fails to materialise and we leave the EU with some third rate “deal” or we crash out altogether with no deal then 39% of No voters are going to be very unhappy indeed.
The options for that 39% of No voters who favour Remaing in the EU then become clear.
Support Independence for Scotland and take the only possible way of achieving membership of the EU as part of an Independent country.
A country where their vote will actually count for something.
Oh, that’s who Rory Bremner is. Mock the Week is it? Don’t watch it much, but don’t remember him from that, can’t be up to much. Along with some little know people, or once respected politicians.
Sorry Rev, can’t get too excited about this, it was the same trying to think of something to comment on yesterday’s Herald, I ended up with “Indeed” as a reply to a poster who point out that Dundee had 16,000 compared to a couple of hundred in Edinburgh.
In the unlikely event of an EU Ref 2 I suppose I’ll have to vote Remain again.
Just noticed that George Galloway has the same hat as Vince Cable, maybe it gets passed around for events like that.
This term ‘peoples vote’ is getting right on my tits.
They mean ‘2nd referendum’ but dont want to call it that. Its pure dishonesty and immediately gets my back up.
Looks like the Tories are gearing up for a leadership contest. They seem to be having a membership drive. Report from Guardian.
link to archive.is
The Union is on its way out, it’s not if it’s when. The United Kindgom ceased to exist years ago, probably the day it started with the Scottish Parliament having been dissolved illegally a day or two before. It’s actually the origin of the word “Mayday” as in Mayday Mayday Mayday meaning emergency, not a lot of people know that.
I just wish it’d stop saying Goodbye and get out of my porch, it’s making the place look untidy.
I would go for a second Euroref but only on condition that, as Auld Rock says, the Scottish vote is respected. That is, that a vote by Scotland to stay in the EU would mean at the very least a vote to stay full members of the SM and CU. The other condition would be a cast iron guarantee that the Claim of Right as recently voted through the Westminster Parliament would give us the untrammelled ability to call a referendum on Independence at any time of our choosing.
I think that would maximise the chances of a remain vote by Yes/Leavers and the onward march to independence as Scotland and rUK go their separate ways.
Scotland being dragged out of the EU against its will is just one symptom.
Unionism is the disease.
Independence is the cure.
Yesindyref2:
“Mayday” is of course from the French M’aidez “Help me”
The crisis in the British political system is wider and deeper than merely the Brexit debacle — its essence is, that we have abandoned most of the principles and processes of parliamentary democracy. Reversing Brexit by extra-parliamentary means would not only fail to resolve this crisis, it would make it more acute.
One other thing! A second EU referendum is of course possible, so too is no deal, so too is some kind of “deal” based on Chequers and so too is another general election with no idea of where the UK is headed after that, if it happens.
So much uncertainty as to what may be coming next.
And that is precisely the reason that Nicola Sturgeon will not make any move towards announcing a second Independence referendum without knowing first the direction in which the UK is headed in any future relationship with the EU.
The right timing is that which gives the Yes side the greatest possible chances of a victory. It is not a date in the calendar.
Daisy Walker says “It wastes time and energy which could be spent on IndyRef2”
Exactly, this is ‘Better Together’ mark 2 in action (let’s face it, they never stopped after Sept 2014) If they really wanted change and another EU vote, they would be campaigning outside NO. 10. They know indyref2 is coming, they just don’t know when.
Engerland is fecked out of the EU without Scotland, we know it, they know it, but they still think there are enough of us who don’t know it.
In the words of an old song ‘send them homewards tae think again’
You know it’s not that they just do not GET it….it’s that they do not WANT to GET it….It’s hey get with the programme separatists…move on they say…while hypocritically NOT moving on themselves…they actually want us to RESPECT the so called DEMOCRATIC vote in 2014 while they themselves are ALLOWED nay ENTITLED to challenge the so called DEMOCRATIC vote in 2016.
If they cannot see how hypocritical their position is in relation to this then the fault and blame lies with them NOT with us and let’s not let them muddy the waters and move the argument onto us the Scots….we have been down that road pre and post 2014 and we know the score….fooled some of us once etc etc and since then on just simply ignored those fooled the first time and the rest of us and our Scottish Government.
See this time WE are not going to be the scapegoats….there is another house that needs to put in order and sort itself out so they need NOT knock on our doors making us somehow feel as though we should feel guilty for not , once again, buying into their desperate pleas for us Scots to TRUST them and BELIEVE them…..we do not need any convincing…we got it…which is why 62%, and growing, of Scots voted to stay in the EU…we looked at who was promoting Brexit and listened to what they were saying and thought….SHITE…so wtf is YOUR problem with us…….you People’s Vote Liberation Party !!!!
Huge apologies for multiple posts today but like others on here I am bursting with rage that some of those people that came to Edinburgh yesterday were complicit in doing the very thing they accuse the LEAVE side of doing and do it on a day when another more IMPORTANT rally/march was being held in another Scottish city. THEN on twitter think it is appropriate and accurate to ATTACK Indy supporters for somehow being the PROBLEM in not wanting to support a UKOK wide initiative….really ? really ?
See this is exactly why we need WOS…to highlight this and not be like the middle class trendy Indy mob who pander to popular trends ….it’s truth we need and the chancers exposed not part time camp fire Kumbaya clueless preachers who disappear and become silent when those of us in Scotland need THEM to support OUR position in Scotland in relation to the political UKOK’s dominating and unreasonable stance towards us….fat fcuking chance though is there…..which is why I refuse to be conned by them or talked down to….especially when I know tis not me or my fellow Scots who are the problem here.
Hope my anger is coming through via my words cause this is a beep beep disgrace….and if you are not angry about this then by Christ you should be.
Will I self combust….no…..but am at risk of my blood pressure accelerating to a dangerously high level very much thanks to the dangerously high level of whataboutery being currently deployed against people like me from people like them !
Yip I know it’s that old US and THEM….but it really is and always has been ….isn’t it…thanks to THEM !!!!!!
“This term ‘peoples vote’ is getting right on my tits.
They mean ‘2nd referendum’ but dont want to call it that. Its pure dishonesty and immediately gets my back up.”
A sharp observation, Glamaig. As The Rev said before (and I paraphrase), “Who voted last time? Badgers?”
Not one poll gives Yes the lead in any second indyref and unless the SNP or at least the SNP and Greens win a majority in the next Holyrood referendum there will not be a mandate for one either and certainly not one Westminster will accept.
At the moment it is more likely we end up with a Chequers Deal Brexit which most grudgingly accept bar diehard Remainers and diehard No Deal Leavers
Not one poll gives Yes the lead in any second indyref and unless the SNP or at least the SNP and Greens win a majority in the next Holyrood election there will not be a mandate for one either and certainly not one Westminster will accept.
At the moment it is more likely we end up with a Chequers Deal Brexit which most grudgingly accept bar diehard Remainers and diehard No Deal Leavers
Not one current indyref2 poll has Yes ahead and there will not be another indyref unless the SNP or at least the SNP and Greens win a majority at the next Holyrood election and Westminster accepts it.
In any case it looks like there will be a Chequers Deal terms Brexit most bar the most diehard Remainers who want to reverse Brexit and the most diehard Leavers who want no Deal with the EU at all will grudgingly accept
I agree absolutely Clapper57.
HYUFD – bollocks, frankly.
Also worth mentioning that the indyref vote was implemented – Scotland remained in the union. The Brexit vote has not yet been implemented. If England wants to vote again on Brexit good luck to them, I’m more interested in Scotland regaining its democracy.
G says:
That is what IndyRef began life as … Indy versus a simple status quo, remain in union.
By the time the vote came, no one was offering the status quo. A NO vote then came with all sorts of desirable but ill defined goodies. None less so than an absolutely clear statement that NO guaranteed EU membership. Their NO win was bought with many promises and truth is, only one has been fully implemented – staying in the Union!
If they had stuck with NO meaning just staying in the Union and nothing else, they would have lost.
I would put it differently. Both referendums were won on false promises. I make the point above in a previous comment, that IndyRef promises were actually possible, while EURef promises were always impossible.
I agree that EURef2 should be of little interest to Scotland, we have bigger fish needing fried.
Clicked on the first item in the Rev’s post above. Tanja somebody or other’s twitter appeared. I read a very large number of polite put-downs in tweets by loads of pro-independence folk. They now have all disappeared and there is a message saying this account’s tweets are protected. Am I doing something wrong e.g. not accessing these properly (I am not on Twitter) or has she pulled up the drawbridge?
Keep watching the situation in Ireland.
Wanting to remain part of one political union but leave another was, I suppose, a kind of circle that needs to be squared. (ignoring the apples and oranges thing for a moment).
Ironically the squaring of that circle just so happens to be a square, the square mile in the city of London.
Of course, with Brexit the circle is already broken, it is no longer a choice between leaving one of two unions but remaining in the other. It is now (unless Brexit is abandoned) mathematically impossible to remain in both.
So the alleged inconsistency(ignoring the apples and oranges thing again for the sake of ludicrous argument) no longer even exists.
The London elite will never see that they are the whole of the problem. Cannae get on wi the neeburs in the flat, its their fawt, cannae get on wi the neeburs in the street, its their fawt an a.
From the perspective of post-colonial feminism and influenced by educational theory, British nationalism articulates an inherent, pervasive, all-encompassing “privileging” of English culture and practice. As such, it is only natural that it turns even the self-identified ‘liberal’ into cultural chauvinists and blood-and-soil thinkers lacking in self-awareness. Self-identified Marxists aren’t guilt free, as they will always oppose the ‘neoliberal EU’, ignoring the fact that Her Majesty’s Government adopted neoliberalism as the form of national government and management, back in 1976 – the IMF demanded it as a condition of financing broken Britain. English Marxists still need to be English nationalists, first and foremost, in order to sell themselves to ‘moderates’ living in England, which they need to do in order to gain power.
link to emeraldinsight.com
link to wp.lancs.ac.uk
link to um.edu.mt
HYUFD:
That’s most unlikely re the Chequers deal, as the EU will have allowed the UK to cherry pick and ignore some of the ‘four freedoms’ and I don’t see that occurring.
OT – re the BBC Newspapers page. It shows the front page of the Scottish Sunday Mail with a picture of a Yemeni child holding up a piece of shrapnel with the serial number of a bomb dropped by Saudi Arabia which killed 40 children.
The headline is CASH FOR BOMBS SCANDAL. Nicola Sturgeon and Paul Wheelhouse are pictured, with the implication that they funded the manufacture of this bomb.
link to bbc.co.uk
As DMH points out upthread, Ratheon in Fife was given pubic money to diversify away from manufacturing weapons. I would guess that Labour and the unions are adamant that Ratheon get support.
Strangely, I can’t find this article on the Daily Mail site (not a place I visit often). They do have articles about how the bomb was manufactured in the US by Lockheed Martin, but nothing on the Scotland connection.
Nor on the fact that defence is a reserved matter, that sales of bombs to Saudi Arabia are a Westminster matter. Just smear by implication.
Link to numerous videos with the boy and the shrapnel
link to tinyurl.com
The Chequers Deal has already been knocked back by the EU – impossible in this day and age to separate trade in Goods and Services, would have implications for the integrity of the EU Trading Blocks also.
It does – as if we didn’t need reminding – highlight the ineptitude of the WM negotiating ‘strategy’. They haven’t got one. They don’t know, they don’t understand, and they don’t actually care, how the EU functions.
Eg You cannot have a Canadian Plus, Plus type agreement, because the original Canadian EU deal has a protection cause written into it, which means if the EU offers someone else better terms or a better deal, they come back to the drawing table and arrange the same benefits.
The only consistency displayed by WM negotiators is – reject anything and everything which involves the European Court of Justice, because with it comes the legislation to tackle the Off Shore Tax Havens.
If the EU did not exist, we would be looking to invent it. Imagine trying to sell widgets to countries in Europe and needing different Health and Safety standards for every country, and settle disputes in every different countries legal courts.
If you want frictionless trade,
you need for your standards to be agreed at one place
you need for your standards to be checked at place of production, not the ports
You need authorised bodies, certified by one agreed industry body, to carry out these checks
A good example is milk production, the cows are in a system where their birth, country of origin, pedigree, haulage, vet history is known and recorded
At the dairy, the milk is harvested by machinery engineered to an agreed standard, cleaned to an agreed standard, the milk is tested at Dairy to an agreed standard, then it is transported out, by hauliers working with equipment and hygiene requirements that are met and tested – to an agreed standard.
And even with all these checks, it is not full proof – foot and mouth disease. Remember that?
Before the EU, we had Thats’ Life on TV and every week Ester Ransom introduced another tragedy, some bairn permanently disabled due to sucking on a toy covered in lead paint, some poor family burned to death due to flammable coverings on the furniture, or dodgy Christmas lights. We all love to have a good mump and moan about Health and Safety gone mad, but it didn’t come about by accident. It came about because of accident after accident, death after death, tragedy after disaster.
Long Distance Drivers – driving for days at a time with no rest, causing accidents, Junior Doctors working 18 hours straight and somehow being expected to save lives, Fire Alarms and CO2 monitors, the water we drink, the air we breath, the food standards we enjoy, the ability to read the contents of what is in the food and medicines and cosmetic products we take. Car safety. The standards used to label chemicals consistently, their safe legal handling and transporting, the list goes on and on.
I wouldn’t trust the WM lot to run a bath.
A soft Brexit – which means a Norway type deal, amounts to a 2% cut in GPD (Westminster figures).
This is the same as the cut experienced, and still being experienced by the 2008 Bankers crash. As a public sector worker, I honestly don’t see how we can take austerity cuts all over again. This, this will be the end our all our public sector services.
A Hard Brexit 8% – and 2.7 million job losses.
One day, an independent Scotland might like to look at a Norway type set up, and if we do (and it might be a good idea) I’d want to see the workings, the business plan, the positives and the negatives. There’s not a hope in hell of us getting that type of info with WM or from the Scottish Government with the current media set up.
We are so screwed if we don’t get Indy.
HYUFD
Maybe the Britnats are pockling the polls in the same way you listed your comments x 3.
Campaigns change polls – get it – or do you check a poll to see if you will burn your toast before putting the bread in the toaster in the morning. If you are for independence and not a Britnat troll then get a grip with the negativity. If you are a Britnat troll – pissoff.
I note that Rory Bremner has taken to Tweetland to call Stu Campbell a ‘WIZARD’ (his caps) for the Rev’s 19th September 2014 prediction that the Red Tories and the Yellow Tories would die, for siding with the Blue Tories in a Better Together project Fear Campaign, the Tories would win the next GE, hold and EU Referendum to fend off UKIP,and Leave would win.
Bremner turns up in Edinburgh, speaks to bemused Japanese festival goers for ten minutes, tweets a few nonsense tweets, then fucks back off to his mansion in the Borders.
The man with the Oxbridge accent and the manners of the Elite Home Counties set has spoken.
How could we have been so wrong?
Weasel words from the privileged few.
Feck right off.
You are not welcome here.
@Capella
They’ll be hoping to find Gaelic lettering on the shrapnel next so they can definitely pin it on Nicola Sturgeon after all she does have total power over road signs, they’re made of metal after all
They have the cheek to call us vile
both femi and tanja have been asked on twitter multiple times, if you wanted to canvas support in scotland for euref2, why didnt they address the 16k in dundee?
no reply
except tanja did tweet last night
Prof Tanja Bueltmann
@cliodiaspora
17h17 hours ago
After careful and painstaking analysis we’ve concluded: fuck them.
[we = @EmporersNewC, @Scotkraut & yours truly).
nice
Btw, this ongoing instruction on spotting and dealing with trolls has gotten me a bit edgy. Honest, I’m not a troll though I acknowledge I can go on a bit. Paranoid, me? 😉
link to daily-struggles.tumblr.com
Daisy Walker @ 5.42 pm
The most graphic and telling evidence supporting Health and Safety is the 3 Bridges at South Queensferry.
Rail Bridge, 19thC, 77 died
Road Bridge, mid-20thC, 7 died
Crossing, 21stC, 2 died and one of those was the result of illness not of an accident.
A lot of people invoke H&S as an excuse for banning something which has nothing to do with H&S eg Schools banning conkers is one example. The H&S inspectors got so fed up with that being blamed on them that they sponsored the Conker World Championships and entered a team.
Without the standards set by the EU we are going to be eating God knows what imported from God knows where and reared in conditions we know nothing about and can’t control. Beggars can’t be choosers is the UK’s no deal Brexit position in a nutshell
@ CamronB Brodie – ah Paulo Friere, long time since I read his work. Good find.
You’re no troll. I don’t always read all of the articles you post links to but there is usualy something interesting and RELEVANT, which is what distinguishes the genuine from the trollish.
Scotland has voted to stay in the E.U. We don’t need another one, Let England have one of its own.
Johnny
The EU is set to allow the UK to stay in the single market for goods but leave the single market for services as the Chequers Deal still ends free movement even if it has regulatory alignment for goods
link to dailymail.co.uk
Rory Bremner also seems to have pulled up the twitter drawbridge after lots and lots of very polite tweets disagreeing with him.
Please, in the interest of accuracy, can we Stop calling those who wish to keep Scotland subjugated under English rule “Unionists”. They don’t believe or campaign for Scotland to be EQUAL. They don’t want Scotland to have the same numbers of MP’s as England, represented in Westminster, that’s true equality. They don’t support Scotland collecting all England’s revenue and taxes then giving them a portion of their own revenues and calling it a “Grant”, as they do to us at present. That would clearly be MADNESS, but it’s the situation THEY want for us and insist if we don’t subscribe to this continued insanity, we are Nationalists and anti English. They do want to keep England in control and Scotland in a quaint wee tartan box, overlaid by their “Union” flag. These people are not UNIONISTS. They are DEMOCRACY DENIERS, COLONIALISTS and if Scottish, COLONIALIST ENABLERS.
Each and every one of those speakers at the Edinburgh gathering know we voted to Remain, yet not one of them supports our democratic and SOVEREIGN will to Remain in the EU. This is a blatantly UNDEMOCRATIC.
I’m not a Nationalist. I want my country to be a NORMAL, democratic country that gets the government we elect, not our neighbours forced upon us. This is NORMAL not Nationalism. This is seeking DEMOCRACY. Those who don’t want this are undemocratic. They’re not normal. They are ANTI Scottish. They are UNDEMOCRATIC. They’re BRITNATS, ENGLISH NATIONALISTS, Democracy Deniers and either COLONIALISTS or COLONIALIST DENIERS.
There’s never been a true Union between Scotland and England, just a sleekit, corrupt OCCUPATION.
They only way Scotland will ever have democracy is to be a NORMAL, self governing country.
We’ve been told that “Britain” is leaving the EU. Regardless of the outcome of Westminster’s EU exit, we have been DENIED our SOVEREIGN and DEMOCRATIC will. So let’s drop the fantasy of the Union and Unionists. If they don’t like the other labels we ascribe to them, then they should CHANGE THEIR WAYS and attitudes towards us, or at least stop lying to themselves.
Scotland is a COUNTRY. EVERY Country should govern themselves.
As I have said before I oppose a “UK wide” brexit referendum or “People (of England) vote” in the strongest possible terms because:
1. Scotland voted loud and clear to remain in the EU. Recent polls show clearly that even a higher majority than in 2016 now supports remaining in the EU: if Scotland has not changed its mind, where exactly is the justification to drag the people of Scotland into another vote? Using the words of the Britnats themselves: “wasn’t it a once in a generation vote?”
2. For as long as Scotland is denied a properly democratic vote by England MPs and is forced to vote as England’s region, there is absolutely no point whatsoever for Scotland in bothering to take part in any UK wide vote anymore because the result will be inevitably what the majority in England will vote for: in the EU ref of 2016, even if the entire electorate of Scotland had voted to remain the result would not have changed. So why bother?
3. As we saw in 2016, England MPs overruled our democratic vote because “it was not the right one”. So why bother? So they can give us the pleasure of overruling our vote yet again and tell us without words just how insignificant our vote is? No thanks.
4. Scotland’s electorate, majority of MSPs and MPs did not give consent for A50 to be triggered, never mind for Scotland to be dragged out of the EU without mandate or consent. Yet, England MPs not only denied the sovereign people of Scotland of a brexit veto, but also gave themselves absolute power to force Scotland out of the EU even when England MPs do not hold the mandate of a single vote from Scotland. So what is the farce for? To remind us what England MPs think of Scotland’s sovereignty? No thanks.
5. If what all those people are really interested in is a change of heart in England, why continue with this farce of dragging Scotland into the vote when there is absolutely no justification for it whatsoever? How about growing some balls and asking directly to the people of England if they have actually changed their mind? Why are these britnats so frightened to face up the English people? Why do they have to hide constantly behind Scotland?
Because if only England (and Wales) vote, the britnats cannot longer have their cake and eat it: leaving the EU and keeping the UK intact. That is why. That is why they rather push Scotland towards a referendum (Scotland only has 5 million people) that they feel they can manipulate than facing the real angry beast, England, and then going through the painful process of telling the constituents that put them in those seats that the cannot have what they want. Of course it is much easier for these cowards to say no to Scotland, because no matter what Scotland votes for, it will not affect them.
So I say, no thanks. Grow the balls and ask England. Scotland’s answer was loud and clear first time round.
The reversal of the Brexit process would have benefit for the independence campaign (apart from riots in English cities).
It would remove the border issue they are using against us.
Dave McEwan Hill says:
19 August, 2018 at 7:41 pm
“The reversal of the Brexit process would have benefit for the independence campaign (apart from riots in English cities).”
Dave, with all due respect, but I think you are simply making castles in the air.
What makes you think England really has changed its mind significantly to move that result over?
What if this “People’s vote” is yet another stitch up for Scotland?
As we stand, Scotland has not given consent for A50 to be triggered nor for the UK to be dragged out of the EU. the Parliament of the Uk upheld the Claim of Right of Scotland very recently. This means that as of today, dragging the UK of of the EU, never mind Scotland, without the consent of the sovereign people of Scotland or their legitimate representatives is at the very least questionable from a legitimate and democratic point of view because it goes against that Claim of Right. So the only thing that so called “people’s vote” is really going to do is legitimise brexit for Scotland by the backdoor. That is why it is really unionists pushing this and they are so desperate to get Scotland to take part on it. The way I see it, it is a trap, a unionist trap.
We should refuse to take part in this farce in the strongest possible terms. It is not Scotland who needs to change its mind but England. Therefore those unionists should grow some balls and ask England what it wants:
1. To dissolve the UK so they can leave the EU
2. To remain in the EU so the UK remains intact.
Let England choose.
Juan What about Bavaria, Catalonia, Venice Quebec etc which were all independent once too?
Maria F In 1974 Scotland voted Labour and got PM Wilson and England voted Heath and got PM Wilson anyway
@ MariaF
‘As we stand, Scotland has not given consent for A50 to be triggered nor for the UK to be dragged out of the EU. the Parliament of the Uk upheld the Claim of Right of Scotland very recently. This means that as of today, dragging the UK of of the EU, never mind Scotland, without the consent of the sovereign people of Scotland or their legitimate representatives is at the very least questionable from a legitimate and democratic point of view because it goes against that Claim of Right. So the only thing that so called “people’s vote” is really going to do is legitimise brexit for Scotland by the backdoor. That is why it is really unionists pushing this and they are so desperate to get Scotland to take part on it. The way I see it, it is a trap, a unionist trap.’
Very interesting view MariaF. Hadn’t thought of that aspect. That would explain the establishment leaving this campaign so late in the day – they don’t actually want it to win, just pressurise the Scots into agreeing to it.
There was an interesting tweet from MrMalkie? re who is organising the ‘peoples vote’ Long list of old familiar faces from New Labour time and the LibDems of course. Mandelson’s name came up.
So an establishment ruse whichever cheek (red or Blue) is behind it. Hey ho.
It’s all about the timing surely? Independence first or our EU membership? However in all likelihood if a referendum of any sort does take place it will be on the EU issue. It is a given that only the vote of the English counts regardless of any Scot’s stance, either Pro or Anti. But if, as some still expect, the Leave camp win the vote then the nature of UK politics and in all probability UK “society” will change quite rapidly. in short order WM will move to make any possible Indy Ref well nigh impossible to conduct on any meaningful basis.
We may say ignore the “Peoples Vote” but to do so would open us up to claims that we’re no longer motivated by the issue (regardless of the validity or otherwise of the claim). Furthermore it would give some in the EU reason to give consideration to the worth or otherwise of supporting Scotland’s cause when we may have even greater need of their assistance than we do at present.
A bit like non voters in any standard election if you ignore the political situation around you and choose not to vote then don’t be surprised if your views are disregarded or overlooked entirely at a later point.
A lot of us don’t want anything to do with a “People’s Vote” because it is a problem made by the English for themselves by themselves. But to ignore it isn’t going to help the Indy cause.
HYUFD
HeYUFuckingDiddy I thought I told you to pissoff. Only a Britnat troll would post a link to the lying Britnat daily mail.
All this is a smoke screen on the part of the Yoon establishment.
WE WILL NEVER OBTAIN AUTHORITY FROM WESTMINSTER TO HOLD INDYREF2 !
Therefore, in the event of a hard Brexit being forced upon Scotland against the will of a two-thirds majority…
EVERY SNP MP & MSP MUST RESIGN…
and stand for re-election on a single-issue ticket of an SNP Holyrood Govt. forming a Scottish Grand Committee to negotiate the repeal of the 1707 Act & Articles of Union with England, AND entering into negotiation with the EU to enter into either full EU or EEA membership.
If the SNP get wiped out, then we’ll have nobody to blame but ourselves. Anything else is simply rearranging the deck chairs on the Titanic.
See this push quoted by Brenner and other about Scotland leaving it’s biggest market (England) after Independence.
Why exactly would that be?
Would English companies stop buying Scottish whisky, fish, manufactured goods, services like tourism
Finger trouble!
For push read pish.
England will be desperate for trading partners post Brexit and Scottish independence.
Archie Hamilton says:
19 August, 2018 at 8:46 pm
“It’s all about the timing surely”
Not sure about that Archie. From where I am standing it very much looks like it is all about smoke and mirrors. Take a look at the “polls”: Scotland has not changed its mind, in fact, the support for the EU has even increased. So what makes you think England has changed its point of view? Don’t you remember what project fear did to Scotland? It made the desire for independence stronger.
I think those behind the “People’s vote” are simply showing us a mirage. I saw somewhere that they were talking about MP constituencies changing their vote intent. But if there is a new vote, it will not be MP constituencies what would count in the final vote, it will be the constituencies that were used for the first EU referendum. Now, did any of those actually changed at all? I think you find not.
I am with Daisy Walker on this. England will vote to leave again and the England MPs will be safe in their seats but this vote will be used to legitimise brexit for Scotland by the back door. Because keeping control of Scotland’s precious assets is all what this is about. Look how quickly they moved to seize the 24 powers and neuter our continuity bill. From where I am standing this “people’s vote” is yet another britnat ruse to stop Scotland having an independence referendum.
“We may say ignore the “Peoples Vote” but to do so would open us up to claims that we’re no longer motivated by the issue”
Alternatively it may send the message that we are not longer that easy to be fooled, that we are far too motivated to be ignored and that we are fed up of being overruled and dictated by England MPs.
“Furthermore it would give some in the EU reason to give consideration to the worth or otherwise of supporting Scotland’s cause when we may have even greater need of their assistance than we do at present”
Sorry, I think this excuse is not good enough to being fooled into legitimise by the back door a brexit we voted strongly against and that is being used to transfer power from the Scottish Parliament onto England MPs without our consent. The EU people are not stupid, Archie. They will understand this.
“A bit like non voters in any standard election if you ignore the political situation around you and choose not to vote then don’t be surprised if your views are disregarded or overlooked entirely at a later point”
The negative to this vote must come not only from the voters but also from the Scottish government and the Scottish Parliament.
“A lot of us don’t want anything to do with a “People’s Vote” because it is a problem made by the English for themselves by themselves. But to ignore it isn’t going to help the Indy cause”
Quite frankly, Archie, refusing to accept that there is any justification whatsoever for this vote in Scotland when Scotland voted to remain in the EU loudly and clear first time round and every poll show that the intention of vote has not changed is not “ignoring” this vote, it is discrediting this vote and understanding that it is not appropriate for Scotland to have it.
Refusing to have this vote on the grounds that it is only England’s vote that counts because Scotland will be forced to vote as England’s property is not “ignoring” the point, it is highlighting that there is no democracy for Scotland in the UK and therefore it is not longer worth for Scotland participating in the vote.
Now, how exactly is accepting to be used, yet again, as scapegoats and shields for England MPs that do not have the balls to actually ask the question to their own constituents for fear of being ejected of their comfortable seats, helpful for independence?
How exactly is accepting to be dictated and ruled by England MPs we do not elect time and time again helpful for independence?
How exactly is accepting that England MPs can simply walk over our sovereignty and claim of right whenever they please, going to help us to become independent?
Sorry, Archie, but the way I see it, the only possible way we can demand respect from others is if we respect ourselves first. Letting England MPs and politicians walking over us and ransack our country every time England gets into trouble without putting up a fight is not respecting ourselves.
It is high times Scotland say NO and enough is enough.
@Naina Tal
Thanks, yes, I forgot to post afterwards that it was a joke. Or something.
@robertknight
On the other hand, if Westminster says no, Holyrood goes ahead anyway, it’s challenged in court, there are the usual delays, the case isn’t heard until March, the decision isn’t until July 2019, and meanwhile the UK can’t Brexit in March according to its Constitution, which is the requirement for the Article 50 invocation in the first place.
Even the danger of that is why I think Westminster will push an S30 through as emergency legislation.
Scotland voted to remain in UK (55% / 2014)
Scotland voted to remain in EU (62% / 2016)
Scotland can not remain in both EU and UK.
It really is that simple.
Only a second independence referendum can answer the question : because remaining in EU is seemingly not an option and a decision controlled by rUK.
HYUFD says:
19 August, 2018 at 8:08 pm
“Juan What about Bavaria, Catalonia, Venice Quebec etc which were all independent once too?”
Why stop there Kurdistan, Basque …..
This is the Wings Over Scotland blog not Wings Over Bavaria! I still believe and stand by EVERY country should govern themselves and have the government THEY ELECT EVERY TIME, not a larger neighbours forced upon them. I don’t dictate what others should do. That’s up to them. I choose democracy over DICTATORSHIP EVERY time. How about you?
You’re either struggling with the concept of democracy or country. Which is it?
Is Scotland a country? Why shouldn’t we govern ourselves?
yesindyref2…
If it gets to court, the SG will lose as the precedent was set with the Edinburgh Agreement, and there’s nothing that English Law, and that includes the UKSC, loves more than a legal precedent. You’ll be in a Cataluña/Madrid scenario quicker than you can say ‘Nigel Farage is an arse’ if the SG goes ahead without an agreement. (Yoon led local authorities would also refuse to open polling stations).
The SNP’s elected representatives should take the ‘nuclear option’. It’ll be all or nothing – if we’re dragged out the EU, subject to a hard Brexit, and denied Indyref2, then there’s nothing left to play for anyway. We’re all f******
yesindyref2
Forgot to include the likelihood that the UK Govt. would railroad any legal case against the SG through the UKSC itself in double quick time to ensure Brexit wasn’t delayed, in the ‘National Interest’ of course.
I find it very strange that they launched this ‘peoples vote’ in Scotland’s capital city.
There seems to be a who’s who, of MI6 types, from the Better Together campaign, who have came from nowhere to tell us Scots we need to have another EU referendum. (even though we voted in overwhelming numbers to remain in the EU! )
Am I being overly cynical, when I say that I am highly suspicious that some ‘Internal Polling’ may be showing a shift from Soft No’s to Yes, as people in Scotland see the damage that the increasingly likely Hard Brexit will do us (and is already doing us)
Can it be that in their desperation to stop any gathering momentum towards Yes, they have started this campaign in order to convince the Soft No’s that Brexit may still be avoided?
Remember, soft No’s, are Scots who were able to be frightened by ‘Project Fear’ so are the very people who are most likely to switch from No to Yes, if they feel even more frightened of a future under Brexit conditions.
Very strange!
HYUFD says:
19 August, 2018 at 8:08 pm
Juan What about Bavaria, Catalonia, Venice Quebec etc which were all independent once too?
Why stop there? Kurdistan, Basque ….. This is the Wings Over SCOTLAND blog not Wings Over Babaria! I stand by EVERY country should govern themselves and have the government THEY ELECT EVERY TIME, not a larger neighbours forced upon them. I choose democracy over DICTATORSHIP EVERY time. How about you?
You’re either struggling with the concept of democracy or country. Which is it?
Is Scotland a country? Why shouldn’t we govern ourselves?
Posts taking over an hour to appear. Posted this over an hour ago
One wee criticism of an otherwise excellent peice; We are not an “ignored, Junior partner”, we are not a partner whatsoever in the minds of Westmister’s brokers.
We are nothing more than one of the last Colonies of the British Empire which they will try and hold in a deathly grip by any means, fair or foul.
Let’s not forget this fact as it may be our undoing, these cunts dinnae fight fair.
Juan Scotland voted in 2014 by a clear 10% margin to stay in the UK but my point proves that the concept of a nation state is fluid and often evolves over centuries. There is a contradiction between an increasingly globalised world and an obsession with nationalism and that includes Trump and hard Brexiteers as much as Catalan or Bavarian Nationalists or the Bloc Quebecois
Jim Half the military officers, civil servants, engineers and merchants who created the British Empire were Scottish, what an absurd point. If Scotland is a colony how come it has its own Parliament, unlike England, while also sending MPs to Westminster too?
Plus of course Lega Nord etc
“There is a contradiction between an increasingly globalised world and an obsession with nationalism”
Only British Nationalists have an obsession with Nationalism and in particular Ruth Davidson.
Your not really very good at this Nationalism business HYUFD.
HYUFD says:
20 August, 2018 at 12:20 am
“Juan Scotland voted in 2014 by a clear 10% margin to stay in the UK but my point proves that the concept of a nation state is fluid and often evolves over centuries. There is a contradiction between an increasingly globalised world and an obsession with nationalism and that includes Trump and hard Brexiteers as much as Catalan or Bavarian Nationalists or the Bloc Quebecois.”
Scots didn’t vote to be taken out of the EU, nor did they vote for EVEL (English Votes for EVERY Law), or for reduced powers, nor any of the other multitude of broken promises. According to you, we should accept a foreign country who lies to us,dictating to Scots. Also according to you Scots aren’t SOVEREIGN and Scotland isn’t a country! Nor are we a colony, because some Scots were /are colonialist enablers and “bought and sold” worked for Greater England’s empire. This isn’t proof of anything. Other than the corruption of the weak and greedy’s ability to sell out their own. Many countries such as Italy and Germany are modern constructs. That doesn’t mean they’ll survive as countries forever. Look at Yugoslavia, USSR, even Russia has “areas”that want to break free. This is simply your OPINION. It’s just the opinion of ONE COLONIALIST and DEMOCRACY DENIER. Democracy didn’t die in September 2014, it just didn’t begin. It’s been postponed only.
I’m not a Nationalist. I’m SEEKING DEMOCRACY and NORMALITY. My country is under occupation, not in a Union. We have no say and are outnumbered by an inherently anti Scottish Treaty, 533 MP’s from England against 59 MP’s from Scotland. This isn’t and never has been equal or a Union. It was an occupation by stealth and corruption. It was against the peoples will at the time. Nothing has changed since.
I think you’ll find a majority of Scots won’t accept being England’s colony. The question next time should be “Should Scotland be a normal, self governing country or England’s colony?” I’d like to see you and the colonialists and their colonialist media sell that to Scots. I know I can convince even those of the Orange Order, that Scotland is a colony, and turn them away from the Darkside, though unfortunately not all of them. In practice a third will support independence in one ten minute conversation. Another third will swither, some of them will be convinced by the first third and the last third will threaten to kill. These are the diehard Colonialist enablers. These are the hardcore support for colonialist rule. Like you they are DEMOCRACY DENIERS.
EVERYONE but the hardcore brainwashed can be convinced to vote for Scottish independence. The hardcore aren’t that many. 150,000 OO in Scotland and not all of them would vote to be England’s colony.
England has gone rogue. They’re heading down
HYUFD says:
20 August, 2018 at 12:20 am
“Scotland voted in 2014 by a clear 10% margin to stay in the UK”
On a platform of blatant lies, deception and a myriad of broken promises. That, in any other context, amounts to fraud.
“Jim Half the military officers, civil servants, engineers and merchants who created the British Empire were Scottish”
As many, many soldiers that fought on the side of the UK on WW1 and WW2 were not from the UK but from its colonies. What is your point?
“If Scotland is a colony how come it has its own Parliament”
Because it was designed to give the illusion of Labour tackling the staggering democratic deficit Scotland is subjected to within the UK and more importantly, it was thought that would stop the pro-independence movement. It failed.
“unlike England”
Because England is using the UK parliament as if it was its own. Take a look at how they calculate the Barnet consequentials. England is always allocated 100% devolution.
“while also sending MPs to Westminster too?”
Because if Scotland did not send MPs to Westminster the UK would be over. The only reason why those MPs are there is to keep the illusion of democracy for Scotland. But just tell me one, one single example where that UK parliament voted in favour of Scotland’s and against England’s interests. You will not find one. All the examples you will find are of England MPs gagging Scottish ones and quashing Scotland’s will sacrificing Scotland’s interests for the benefit of England’s one. With over 80% of the seats, the UK parliament is acting as England’s parliament. If you consider that NI and Wales are part of the Kingdom of England, then you realise that the “UK Parliament” is really the Kingdom of England’s Parliament with 90% of the seats. It is a farce.
Juan Scotand voted 63% for Unionist parties even after Brexit. Your country is also in no way colonised or in occupation, for starters Scots have their own Parliament at Westminster which decides most domestic policy while also sending MPs to Westminster. In fact Scotland’s situation increasingly resembles that of a state i ln a Federal nation like Germany. Of clurse y sstartersGermany
Maria F Scotland voted No despite am aggressive Yes campaign as it was happy with its own Parliament which decided most domestic policy. At most most Scots want devomax not full independence. In 1974 England voted Tory and got a Labour PM and Scotland voted Labour and got a Labour PM. From 2007 to 2010 the UK had a Scottish PM who spent heavily in Scotland
If a second referendum stopped Brexit, then Scottish independence wouldn’t be more difficult. Since the whole of the British Isles would remain in the single market, no new barriers would be created if Scotland became independent again. So that argument falls…
“If a second referendum stopped Brexit, then Scottish independence wouldn’t be more difficult.”
I said it would damage the arguments for independence, one of which is “avoiding Brexit”.
“Juan Scotand voted 63% for Unionist parties even after Brexit.”
There are NO UNIONISTS, the Union is an allusion. It’s COLONISATION by stealth, cause you couldn’t do it the old fashioned way.
“Your country is also in no way colonised or in occupation,..”
So Scotland Is a country! “…for starters Scots have their own Parliament at Westminster which decides most domestic policy while also sending MPs to Westminster. In fact Scotland’s situation increasingly resembles that of a state i ln a Federal nation like Germany.”
Where is this “Scotland’s own parliament at WESTMINSTER”? Now moving on to the Federalism LIE. The UK isn’t federalist. Our parliament is devolved and power devolved is power retained. Westminster dictates 80% of Scotland’s laws and collects ALL our revenue and Taxes. This is neither NORMAL nor Federalism. It’s colonialism.
“Of clurse y sstartersGermany”- Pure gibberish and yer it’s the most sensible thing you’ve written.
In no way is Scotland a colony given Scots have representatives in their own Parliament and at Westminster and also given 55% of Scots voted to stay in the Union in 2014.
Holyrood determines most Scottish domestic policy including education, justice and health and has power to vary income tax within a preset range.
I was astonished to learn that Esler and Bremner regard themselves as Scots. They are not Scots, but that strange minority of a minority, the Anglo Scot. I realise that for many years I have been doing English people a grave disservice in confusing them with the Anglo Scot. It is the Anglo Scot who has been the bane of my life, constantly putting me and my kind down. Not ordinary English people. Because English people by and large are simply indifferent to Scotland. The Anglo Scot however is actually an active Anti-Scot who is instinctively afraid of anything genuinely Scottish in case it leads to independence and reveals their inauthenticity. Because then they would be out of a job and out of a country, since they are neither Scots nor English, but a kind of colonial elite who owe their position in the social hierarchy to keeping the natives in check.
Glad I gave that demo a miss. There can be no collaboration between Scots and Anti Scots, even over Brexshit. I laughed to see how their paltry demo was given major coverage by their colonial agents dan sath when the indy demo of 15,000 in Dundee on Saturday was ignored. Hell mend them.
HYUFD says:
20 August, 2018 at 12:14 pm
“In no way is Scotland a colony given Scots have representatives in their own Parliament and at Westminster and also given 55% of Scots voted to stay in the Union in 2014.”
As has already been pointed out to you, Scots didn’t vote for LESS POWERS but for a LIE named “The Vow” which promised FULL FISCAL AUTONOMY, which hasn’t been delivered, not has the 13 shipbuilding contract, tax jobs removed from Scotland to Croydon in ENGLAND, not did we vote for the power grab or to leave the EU. Like your colonialist propaganda outlets, you’re just repeating the same shite. It was shite the first time you said it.
A colony is any country or area that’s either partially or completely politically dominated by another country. Scots voted to REMAIN in the EU yet are being FORCED out by ENGLAND.
“Holyrood determines most Scottish domestic policy including education, justice and health and has power to vary income tax within a preset range.” This is not most domestic laws though is it? At least 80% of our laws are DICTATED to us by a parliament in a FOREIGN country where we have minimum representation. Even colonies decide on some domestic issues.
Now that you’ve conceded that Scotland is a country. Why shouldn’t we govern ourselves like a NORMAL country?
HYUFD says:
20 August, 2018 at 8:24 am
“Scotland voted 63% for Unionist parties even after Brexit”
And? A GE is not a referendum, HYUFD. If you want a proper referendum you have to have one with a defined question/s and not make a GE do as one using the manifesto of the parties as “the question”. That is ridiculous. Bizarrely, the 3 British Nationalist parties aka Labour, Conservatives and LibDem appear to be completely terrified of an independence referendum. You would expect that at least Labour and LibDems, as allegedly democratic parties that are quite happy to celebrate the independence of pretty much everyone, would support self determination for Scotland too. Apparently not. This enormous discordance between how they attempt to present themselves to the world and who they really behave towards Scotland does not make any sense whatsoever in modern democracy. The only way you can explain it from the perspective that these 3 parties are not really 3 parties but, when it comes to Scotland, just one.
“Your country is also in no way colonised or in occupation”
Well, that is a matter of opinion.
“Scots have their own Parliament at Westminster”
Where do you live, HYUFD? So you even live in the UK? The Parliament of Scotland is Holyrood, not Westminster. Holyrood is in Scotland, in Edinburgh. Westminster is the Parliament of the United Kingdom of Great Britain and NI but it is used as if it was England’s parliament.
“which decides most domestic policy”
Yet, England MPs that do not hold the mandate of a single vote from Scotland, do not hesitate to overrule Scotland’s democratic will and walk all over our Claim of right without our consent to steal from us 24 devolved powers from our Parliament so they can transfer those powers onto themselves and with them seize control of Scotland’s assets for the benefit of England and the detriment of Scotland. If that is not colonialism HYUFD, you tell me what it is.
“while also sending MPs to Westminster”
The moment Scotland stops sending MPs to Westminster the union is over.
This stuff makes you angry, all the more so as the National party, according to rumours about conference 2018 agenda, seems to be shelving by stealth any action on independence.
We do live in interesting and perplexing times when a party dedicated to independence appears to prefer the comfort and job security of the ‘devolved option’.
Fast losing patience and trust in Nicola’s régime.
[…] Menzies Campbell who spoke to around 1k people about the need for a second Brexit vote. The line ”love the UK, love the EU’ was pitched. This sparked independence supporters to refute this on everyone’s favourite […]
HYUFD says:
20 August, 2018 at 8:36 am
“Scotland voted No despite am aggressive Yes campaign”
Aggressive Yes campaign? Are you having a laugh? Do you actually live here at all? Were you here in 2014 or you just were given a script of what you have to say?
Because I was here in 2014 and I can ensure you I did not feel the Yes campaign as “aggressive” at all. In fact I felt it was far too mellow and that allowed the No side to get away with murder. Why do I say this? Well, because until a few weeks before 18 September 2014 I as a convinced No voter. So much so that initially I saw the referendum with incredulity and I thought the idea of independence for Scotland was totally ridiculous. Why? because I swallowed the crap the No side was peddling and the information from the Yes side did not reach me at all. but the aggressiveness of the NO campaign was so exaggerated that even I noted that there was a total lack of balance. 99% of the information I was getting from MSM, radio, TV and in the street was from the No side. So what changed? I am a stubborn so and so that refuses to be told what to do and that tends to thing the worst of those who have something to hide. The fact that all the MSM and broadcasters were so negative towards independence made me question why. Why was I not getting the information? I started to get pissed off with the number of articles designed to create fear (food prices increase, businesses moving away, etc) But what started to turn it for me was the announcement from the MoD that they planned to allocate the 13 frigates built to Scotland, but they would “be forced” not to if Scotland became an independent country. I thought that was a pathetic example of emotional blackmailing and reminded me of the obnoxious child in the playground that runs away with his ball because the others don’t let him win every time.
Then along came the infamous article claiming that blood transfusions and organ transplants would cease in Scotland if it became independent. That turned the tide for me upside down. At that point I blatantly refused to go on supporting a side that would use such disgustingly cruel and unfounded argument to make a point. I saw that as naked blackmailing. Immediately thought that if the No side had to resource to use such dirty tactics, there must be something they were desperate to hide and to distract us from. Then along came the article in the Guardian claiming that an independent Scotland would have to pay double fee for the TV licence. That was the last straw: I never was a great fan of the BBC, but at that time I asked myself who on earth could be so arrogant (and stupid) as to think the people of Scotland would ever want to continue watching the London centric BBC when they could have their own independent channels? I thought that was utterly ridiculous and frankly, desperate.
From there that was it. I started to question every single argument, every single comment, every single article I read or hear and the truth is that they did not stand up to my scrutiny. I started to notice the pattern in the articles of the BBC, always starting with the NO side of hte story and ending with the No side of the story. I complained to the BBC countless times about this, but nothing changed. So that was it. I started to conduct my own research and I have not looked back every since. Now I see some of the articles and I wonder how I could have been so blind to have fallen for that crap.
So stop talking bllocks, HYUFD. The YES campaign was not aggressive at all. It was no near as aggressive as it should have been to counteract the bile, the rubbish, the abuse of power and the disgusting emotional blackmailing used by the No side.
“At most most Scots want devomax”
And again, that was spectacularly abused by the No side to manipulate and deceive the electorate in Scotland in a unbelievably dirty way that would not be uncommon practice in a fascist state but that is outrageous and totally out of place in a so called democratic union of equals.
“In 1974 England voted Tory and got a Labour PM”
Oh dear! My heart bleeds. If England wants to get the PM they vote for every time, then they can move their collective backsides and dissolve the treaty of union themselves. Isn’t it about time a country like England, holding 85% of the electorate of Scotland and pretty much every single politician in the UK gov cabinet stop hiding behind Scotland and crying wolf?
“From 2007 to 2010 the UK had a Scottish PM”
Being born in Scotland alone does not make you Scottish. You have to earn being called Scottish. I do not think you can call “Scottish” to someone that does everything in their hand, including using deception, to stop the right of self-determination of his fellow countryman and by doing so condemning the parliament of the country to being neutered and his fellow countrymen to economic hardship at the hands of the tories. That individual is not fit to be called a “Scot”. Is a tractor to his country and I hope that is the way he will be seen by the future generations of young Scots. I will certainly ensure my children and grandchildren always remember the face of the tractor that sold his country to the tories in 2014 for the sake of a few labour seats in Westminster.
Stamps feet!
@
Sunniva says: on 20 August, 2018 at 12:19 pm
“the Anglo Scot”
————————————————-
Sunniva , read your whole comment….have to say well done you are spot on.
“as the National party, according to rumours about conference 2018 agenda, seems to be shelving by stealth any action on independence.”
No it doesn’t, and neither do the rumours say that. What they say is that Independence is not one of the 32 items on the agenda.
But that doesn’t mean diddly squat about “action on independence”.
Maria F,
Fantastic comment, you’re a scholar and a gentlewoman. btw you and Juan shouldn’t waste any more time on that HYUFD idiot, it’s “argument” has been well and truly stuffed.
42% funded and only 17 days to go, this very important fundraiser needs a bit of a giddy-up.
link to igg.me
@Abulhaq
“Fast losing patience and trust in Nicola’s régime.”
Let’s hope they’re keeping the powder dry. However…
If we’re dragged out the EU against the wishes of a two-thirds majority of the electorate in Scotland…
If we’re subjected to a hard Brexit…
If the SNP minority administration times-out without exhausting all means of triggering Indyref2…
If our remaining elected SNP representatives then just shrug their collective shoulders and keep taking the MP/MSP salary…
Then history will show NS as having presided over the death of the dream that was an Independent Scotland.
‘Nuclear option’ required. See my previous posts.
Juan I notice no mention of the eight Type 26 frigates being built at shipyards in Glasgow.
No mention either of the Scotland Act 2016 which devolved further powers to Scotland amongst which included legislative control over areas such as onshore oil and gas extraction, rail franchising, consumer advocacy and advice amongst others by devolution of powers in relation to these fields to the Ministers of the Scottish Parliament.
Management of the Crown Estate and the British Transport Police in Scotland.
Control over certain removable taxes including Air Passenger Duty.
Full control over income tax including Income Tax rates and bands on non-savings and non-dividend income.
Holyrood now controls the vast majority of Scottish domestic policy
MariaF 55% voted to stay in the Union in 2016 and if the main nationalist party can only muster 37% in the last Westminster election in Scotland and failed to get to 50% or get a majority in the last Holyrood election it has no mandate for another independence referendum.
Scots have their own domestic Parliament at Holyrood but also send MPs to Westminster as do the Welsh and Northern Irish, if Westminster was an English only Parliament the Tories would have had a majority in both 2010 and 2017.
The Scotland Act 2016 was an example of further powers being devolved to Scotland.
The Yes campaign was very aggressive in social media and drowned out the likes of Jim Murphy on the streets. It also had plenty of cash from the likes of multimillionaires Brian Souter and Sean Connery.
England gets on with it, as to be fair does Wales and NI on the whole, it is mainly nationalist Scots who whinge.
Brown represented the Unionist views in 2014 of most Scots
‘drowned out the likes of Jim Murphy on the streets’
HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAH…to infinity and beyond.
cubby says:
19 August, 2018 at 12:42 pm
Labour Party = self serving hypocrites.
______
Labour Party = self serving hypocrites.
Conservative Party = Hypocritical self-servers.
[A wee nod to Cubby for the initial idea].
HYUFD says:
20 August, 2018 at 9:11 pm
“Juan I notice no mention of the eight Type 26 frigates being built at shipyards in Glasgow.”
Thirteen were promised only THREE have actually been ordered. Even if it turns out to be 8, the 13 was a LIE. I won’t be ruled by LIARS. I won’t be ruled by a foreign government my country have rejected. For the record I have mentioned them under shipbuilding lies “13 shipbuilding contracts” in my post at 12:48. Try READING posts you’re responding to.
“No mention either of the Scotland Act 2016 which devolved further powers to Scotland amongst which included legislative control over areas such as onshore oil and gas extraction”. Westminster has sold licences to FRACK Scotland to INEOS who also fund the Tory party. Your full of shite.
THESE are part of the POWER GRAB, along with the environment, farming, fishing and a whole range of other powers being STOLEN, not to mention the LIE that the Scottish parliament would be made PERMANENT.
“rail franchising” seriously FUCK OFF. Westminster controls and OWNS Scotland’s rail network and are responsible for most of the delays on our railways at present, but they’ll not devolve that as they can fuck up our railways with control over the Network as they do just now.
The rest of your post is drivel. I’m not going to be persuaded by crumbs off my own table.
“Management of the Crown Estate” aye cheers for that. ITS ILLEGAL. SCOTS ARE SOVEREIGN not subjects, like the people of England.
“Holyrood now controls the vast majority of Scottish domestic policy” The Scottish Office always have done because Scotland has ALWAYS been a SEPARATE Kingdom and COUNTRY, with OUR OWN LAWS, Education etc.
“For the love of the UK”. Fuck the UK. It’s been detrimental to Scotland for ALL of it’s 311 year existence and diminished Scotland on EVERY level whether that’s Physically, Politically, Environmentally, Economically, Socially and Culturally. There’s NEVER been ANY BENEFIT to Scotland from it’s UNION with England. NONE EVER!
I will NEVER support this unequal, undemocratic, unwanted, corrupt and inherently anti Scottish “Union” that deprives me and mine, of basic and fundamental HUMAN RIGHTS, like the right to choose the GOVERNMENT of my country.
So, unless you’ve got something to offer that’s BETTER THAN DEMOCRACY (fascist Tory regimes that persecute the poor and KILL THE DISABLED, don’t do it for me and neither does racism or xenophobia) do one.
You cannot even answer WHY SHOULDN’T SCOTLAND GOVERN ITSELF LIKE EVERY OTHER NORMAL COUNTRY? This is the THIRD time of asking. Got an answer yet? When you’ve got an answer to that and something better than democracy, by all means get back to me. If not, seriously FUCK OFF.
If I wanted to go round in circles with an imbecile I’d be waltzing with Boris Johnson.
8 were promised, 8 are being delivered. Given 55% of Scots backed the Union in the 2014 referendum Scotland is certainly not ruled by a foreign country Scots have rejected.
The Scotland Act 2016 delivered on the promise made at the 2014 referendum to give more powers to Scotland and confirms most domestic policy from Justice to Education to Health to Transport to Air Passenger Duty and non Savings Incone Tax is decided in Scotland. Scotland is now one of the most prosperous parts of the UK and part of a G8, G20 evonomy and a permanent mber of the UN Security Council thanks to the UK.
I know you are a whinging, miserable Nat who would still do nothing but complain even if you got independence which 55% opposed in 2014 anyway affirming the democratic mandate of the Union and you also have the right to vote in elections for both the Scottish and UK governments. Unemployment is now one of the lowest in the Western world under a Tory government. Scotland does govern itself on most domestic issues but is also part of a wider strong Union much like a former country like Bavaria is part of a Federal Germany, a former country like Venice or Naples is now part of Italy etc
The level of willful ignorance and condescension on display in your posts qualifies you as not even remotely worthy of any engagement on these threads.
Come back when you stop your lying faced brass necked thick as shit in the neck of a bottle nonsense. And get yersel back on that banana boat berthed on the clyde…ye’ve goat a few roon trips tae go collecting aw the bespoke zips ye need tae replace aw the faulty wans keepin yer daft napper the gether.
#condescendingtorysubjectinthehoose
The most logical element of the independent argument is the promotion of the entrepreneurial state (Norway achieves this with its enormous state oil fund, other autonomous countries manage their own version on a smaller scale even without oil) by having control of all our legislative powers – whether its for welfare, defence, energy, immigration, agriculture our macro-economy. Piecemeal legislation means exactly that- several pieces of the bigger picture of Scotland’s potential are missing.
What’s more appealing- Scotland in pieces or the joined up picture?
Hi sensibledave, I haven’t forgotten you.
If it is him, *he’s even more of a cowardly little shit than ah had him pinned as. He’s never been shy of using his sd handle, why would he be in disguise now…hmmm…think ma first sentence covered that.
*the ‘feel’ of it is decidedly sd
It was your “condescension” made me think of him, that and the HYUFD but no idea what the “U” would stand for, I missed that bit!
Phronesis I doubt the argument an independent Scotland would be an entrepreneurial, low tax, laissez faire nirvana would have much appeal to SNP voters in the Central belt and oil supplies will run out eventually
HYUFD says:
21 August, 2018 at 7:05 am
“8 were promised, 8 are being delivered.”. The LIE is YOURS. Just repeating the LIES won’t make them any less of a LIE!
“Earlier statements from the MoD outlined a planned build of 13 Type 26 Frigates would be awarded to the Clyde, a defence review and subsequent cost cutting has however stood in the way of that, is there more to it?
The initial Type 26 frigate order was cut back from 13 to 8 in order to fund more of the immediate spending outlined in the 2015 Strategic Defence and Security Review, a move that has been widely expected since 2013.”
link to ukdefencejournal.org.uk
It’s not a “strong Union” that denies it’s citizens democracy. That’s not the sign of a strong Union but of an oppressive regimes OCCUPATION. If you and your establishment are confident of Scots being fooled twice, why not have another referendum? Not that it’s YOUR choice. We’ve already mandated our government to do so.
FOR THE FOURTH TIME OF ASKING, Why shouldn’t Scotland govern itself like a NORMAL country?
The Government has confirmed all Type 26 Frigates will be Clyde built
link to ukdefencejournal.org.uk.
It was a strong Union which granted Scotland an independence referendum in 2014 unlike say Spain with Catalonia. 63% if Scots voted for Unionist parties in 2017.
If you want to restore countries which were independent centuries ago like Scotland then why not Bavaria, Prussia, Naples, Venice, Aragon, Abyssinia,Texas, Persia, Wessex etc?
HYUFD says:
21 August, 2018 at 6:28 pm
“The Government has confirmed all Type 26 Frigates will be Clyde built” Not ALL 13 as PROMISED though.
link to ukdefencejournal.org.uk.
Or here:
link to theferret.scot
“The first three frigates were contracted to BAE in early 2017 in a £3.7bn deal.”
So NOT ALL 13 PROMISED IN 2014, but ONLY 8! And ONLY 3 have been contracted so far. The other frigates are smaller and cheaper and will be built at various sites around the UK! They LIED.
A “strong Union” is built on truth, equality and mutual respect, not lies and FEARMONGERING. 13 were promised BEFORE the referendum but now it’s reduced to 8, but not all 8 have been ordered so it could easily be reduced again.
link to ukdefencejournal.org.uk
“The initial Type 26 frigate order was cut back from 13 to 8 in order to fund more of the immediate spending outlined in the 2015 Strategic Defence and Security Review, a move that has been widely expected since 2013.” The LIARS KNEW there’d never be 13.
“It was a strong Union which granted Scotland an independence referendum in 2014 unlike say Spain with Catalonia.”
Westminster cannot stop Scotland having another IndyRef. The UK isn’t a country, it’s a bipartite UNION.
Westminster didn’t “grant” a referendum but signed a Section 30 that the result would be legally binding, then corrupted the referendum by driving a coach and horses through Purdah, because polls showed independence was in the lead. They then promised FULL FISCAL AUTONOMY. When will that be delivered?
Spain’s regime are FASCIST. Do you think England would do the same to Scots exercising their democratic and SOVEREIGN will? Would this be acceptable to keep your “strong Union” together? A strong Union where half of all Scots at least, want that “Union” to end. Your “Union” is as strong as Mayhem is stable.
“63% if Scots voted for Unionist parties in 2017”. There are no unionist parties, just ENGLISH Parties that LIE to the electorate, by placing Scottish in front of their names in Scotland. They’d get less support if they told the truth and they know it. That’s why they LIE.
“If you want to restore countries which were independent centuries ago like Scotland then why not Bavaria, Prussia, Naples, Venice, Aragon, Abyssinia,Texas, Persia, Wessex etc?s”
Scotland isn’t independent, but it’s ALWAYS been a country. It’s legal system has always been independent as has our education system. Scot are SOVEREIGN in Law. That TRUTH is recognised by English Law, the Treaty of Union and even by Westminster again this year.
We don’t even need Holyrood to call for the dissolving of the UK. We could do that ourselves and it’d be legally binding, as would a referendum without a Section 30, because of our legal Sovereignty.
Still waiting for the answer to WHY shouldn’t Scotland be self governing? Why can’t you answer such an easy question?
All Frigates that will be built will be built in Scotland.
Under the UK unwritten constitution Westminster comprising MPs from all 4 home countries is sovereign, Holyrood is just a subsidiary of Westminster, no different to the position between Spain’s Parliament and Catalonia’s. Only one poll the entire 2014 campaign had Yes ahead and No won by a convincing 10% margin
The 2016 Scotland Act passed at Westminster then delivered further Autonomy to Scotland, including fiscally in yes of non Savings income tax, as promised in the referendum campaign.
Even US states gave their own laws, so what? Westminster remains supreme and has been since the first Scottish Parliament dissolved itself into Westminster in 1707.
Without Westminster consent no referendum can lawfully be held. 55% of Scots decided to stay in the UK in 2014 and that decided the matter as affirmed by the 2017 general election in Scotland
Hi HYUFD.
There’s a possibility that you are so brainwashed that you actually believe all the guff that you post on here. I’m not gonna go through all of the factual inaccuracies in your last handful of comments; I’ll just mention one.
NO PERMISSION IS NEEDED FROM THE UK PARLIAMENT FOR THE SCOTTISH PARLIAMENT TO HOLD A REFERENDUM.
Now, that’s a fact, no matter how often you state the opposite.
“All Frigates that will be built will be built in Scotland.”
The Type 31e is a frigate and nobody has a clue where it’ll be built yet as the tender has only just gone out again. And there is no guarantee that any more than 6 Type 26 will be built, or even more than the 3 currently ordered. As Dragon’s Den would say, it’s a letter of intent for any more, NOT an order. But here IS an accurate statement:
All postings by HIFUD are shite, sensibledave.
It became aware to us in Scotland during the first indyref, that the English parties, C&U, Labour and Lib-Dem (‘CULLD’), were acting together in the interests of “the union” and against the interests of Scotland.
The britnat collusion, that has carried on since 18/09/14, can be simply shown by the graphic at this link.
link to twitter.com
As others have pointed out, as far as Scottish politics go, it’s now tories (blue and red) against Scotland and Scotland’s interests.
More lies. Scotland’s parliament was never dissolved. It was prorogued. The Treaty of Union had to be signed, out with parliament as Scots weren’t happy with treacherous MP’s who’d been bribed by England, to join in Union.
Can you point to where in the Treaty of Union that states Scotland ceases to be a country? It’s just another LIE.
Scots law is “sacrosanct in perpetuity” see Section 19 of the Treaty of Union. Under Scots law, the people of Scotland are SOVEREIGN, not parliament or Monarch and definitely not a FOREIGN parliament in a FOREIGN country.
Like you, Westminster LIE all the time about EVERYTHING. Where’s your legal document to prove any of this shit your spreading?
Scotland is definitely a country and recognised around the world as such.
Is England a country? It was for 12 days, but then it’s ONE AND ONLY ENGLISH king was killed and it became a colony of Normandy in 1066. The Normans were defeated by the French and Normandy became a region of France thereafter. Since then England’s Monarchs have never been English. You’ve had more Scots monarchs than English. You’ve been ruled over by FOREIGN aristocrats since 1066, perhaps that’s why your country is so xenophobic and racist just now. The English are struggling to assert their own Englishness and find themselves which has resulted in the self harm that “Brexit” will surely be.
If Scots organised themselves and a majority demand a dissolution of the Union, the UK would be dead. Any referendum, even an advisory referendum would be legally binding, because we are legally SOVEREIGN. Scots Claim of Rights was passed uncontested in Westminster recently:
link to archive.is
The 2017 UK GE was only an election. They happen all the time and nothing in one election precludes the electorate from changing their minds in the next election. In 2017 500,000 Scots chose not to support SNP because they didn’t stand on an Indy mandate. I know, I was one of those 1/2 a million. I’ll only vote for a party that stands on an Indy platform. A majority of SNP MP’s elected on an independence mandate is enough to dissolve the UK WITHOUT the need for another IndyRef. I withheld my support from the SNP because they didn’t stand on that mandate. If they had done they’d have more MP’s than now, and the “Union” with England would already be over.
Scots are SOVEREIGN not serfs or mere subjects as the English are in England. Legally your not even citizens, just chattel of of The Crown. Funny how most English are oblivious to their own legal standing yet have a massively overblown sense of self importance and arrogance. Your empire was built on this, xenophobia, the racism of white supremacy and stupidity that English are superior to all, when legally your not even citizens. Your delusions of your over inflated sense of yourselves will end the Union. You know it too, otherwise you wouldn’t be posting your lies and disinformation here.
I can smell your fear from here. Why are the English so afraid to be an independent country? Is it because you’ve no assets? Without Scotland’s vast resources you’ll never be able to clear your National Debt of £2 TRILLION?
You’d think you English would have enough problems of your own to be dealing with what with your chronic trade deficit, Irish border, cliff edge EU exit, falling £, corrupt banks, electoral corruption, stagnating economy, rising poverty, personal and National debt crisis, rising race hate crime, rising violent crime and all the rest. Seriously, you’d be better spending your energy sorting yourselves out.
Brian Holyrood is a product of Westminster statute so technically Westminster approval is needed for a referendum2.
Unionist parties combined still poll well over 50% in Scotland
Juan Scottish Parliament representatives voted in 1707 to absorb themselves into Westminster, that remains the case today. The only country recognised in GB by the UN is the UK.The Scottish people of course voted 55% for the Union in 2014’s referendum and 63% for Unionist parties at the 2017 general election so it is you ignoring their opinion not me.
Technically of course most English are of German ie Anglo Saxon or French ie Norman or Huguenot origin while Scots are Celts but what has that to do with anything? The Claim of Right is irrelevant as only SNP MPs voted and no Parliament at Westminster can bind its successors under our unwritten constitution. You of course exist on anti English hatred, most English do not exist on anti Scottish hatred.
Without Scotland England and Wales would still have 1 of the wealthiest cities in the world in London and still be in the top 10 largest global economies. Scotland would not even be in the G20. Scotland has also had its own monarchs even before joining the UK and Scots played a key part in the Empire
HYUFD says:
22 August, 2018 at 1:03 pm
“Juan Scottish Parliament representatives voted in 1707 to absorb themselves into Westminster, that remains the case today.”
Those MPs weren’t Sovereign and neither was the Scottish parliament. The people of Scotland were and still are the SOVEREIGNS of Scotland. The wee link I posted in the last post explains that.
The UK is a unitary state but not a country? Name one other country that is comprised of other countries?
HYUFD says:
22 August, 2018 at 1:06 pm
“Technically of course most English are of German ie Anglo Saxon or French ie Norman or Huguenot origin while Scots are Celts but what has that to do with anything?”
Technically? I think you mean genetically and again you’re wrong. Genetically we are from Doggerland, almost all of us regardless of which country within the UK we reside.
“The Claim of Right is irrelevant as only SNP MPs voted and no Parliament at Westminster can bind its successors under our unwritten constitution.”
England doesn’t have a written constitution but Scots have in the Declaration of Arbroath and Claim of Right. Both state that ONLY the people of Scotland are SOVEREIGN. The vote in Westminster was uncontested, not voted against by anyone. It’s recognised by all that Scots are SOVEREIGN IN LAW.
“You of course exist on anti English hatred, most English do not exist on anti Scottish hatred.” Absolute bollocks. The hatred is mainly from English towards Scots and Scotland. Your conceit and arrogance is on full show with that comment. I’m seeking DEMOCRACY. It’s nothing to do with English people but everything to do with the removal of Westminster’s colonial grip on my country.
You’re on full on anti English now. Not only do you claim that Scotland was extinguished, but provide no legal document as proof. You’re now saying England was extinguished in 1707 too. Good luck explaining that to your xenophobic, little Englander Brexitosser contingent.
HYUFD says:
22 August, 2018 at 1:09 pm
“Without Scotland England and Wales would still have 1 of the wealthiest cities in the world in London and still be in the top 10 largest global economies.”
But it would lose 60% of the territory it controls just now, lose it’s seat on the Security Council as the UK would cease to exist, lose the vast energy resources it uses to balance England’s £2 TRILLION debt, your currency will plummet without Scotland’s positive trade balance, you’d lose your credit rating, no longer be a nuclear power as the nukes are based in Scotland, technically they’d be ours and anyway you’ve nowhere to house them in England, you’d suffer brownouts or blackouts without our electricity. Basically without Scotland England is a basket case.
“Scotland would not even be in the G20.”
We don’t care. We would have democracy, be free of Tory regimes, free from their austerity dogma, set our own relations with the EU and wider world, prosper without subsidising England and without Westminster stealing our territory, wealth and resources.
Most of the most successful countries in the world are small countries with between 5 – 15 million people.
“Scotland has also had its own monarchs even before joining the UK” Stating the obvious but at least that’s accurate and true. Makes a change for you. Definite progress though obvious and meaningless.
“and Scots played a key part in the Empire.” Eh no. Scots played their part freeing others from the Empire, but those born here working for the Empire were BRITNATS not Scottish. That’s the thing about Scottish nationalism. It’s civic not blood and soil, as you English prefer.
“so technically Westminster approval is needed for a referendum2”
No it isn’t. The S30 makes things easier.
“63% for Unionist parties at the 2017 general election”
This isn’t properly true either. 30% to 40% of Labour and LibDem voters intend voting YES, and some Conservatives, so you’d have to mathematicate their support in terms of Independence.
“The Claim of Right is irrelevant”
No it isn’t, it was even brought into the UKSC, as was the Bill of Rights, but neither were needed for the Miller appeal judgement.
“You of course exist on anti English hatred”
What a load of old cobblers, scraping the desperation defamation barrel.
“Scotland would not even be in the G20”
Neither is Denmark or Norway. So what?
FUD – Fear Uncertainty Doubt. And the other meaning.
Juan That was the sovereign legislative body in Scotland at the time and the people of Scotland already rejected independence in 2014. Germany, Spain, Italy, Belgium, the USA (Texas was a Republic), India through the Maharajah states etc are all made up of former independent countries like the UK is.
Given Doggerland coveted most of northern Europe that does not negate my point. The Declaration of Arbroath was made by Robert Bruce it was superseded by the Act of Union. Your false statement of colonialism proves your anti English sentiment, given Scots have full representation at Westminster and their own Parliament at Holyrood that is now Federalism not Colonialism. England I accept is a ceremonial country only like Scotland and Wales, the only sovereign country in GB is the UK
Scotland is less than 10% of the UK population and only a quarter of the land area. Without Scotland rUK would remain I the UN Security Council as a permanent mber as once in you cannot be removed, would remain the joint largest European military with France and would remain a G7 and G20 economy. Scotland would disappear from all those bodies and have a military about the size of Belgium’s.
The biggest contributor to the UK economy is financial services based in London and the likes of HSBC and Barclays, RBS had to be bailed out plus English focused pharmaceuticals like GlaxoSmithKline. The Scottish evonomy is based on oil which will eventually run out. England and Wales has hydroelectric power, nuclear power, solar power, plenty of gas and electricity stations etc. Scotland begged to join the Union last time it was independent after it went bust. Scots from Livingstone and beyond played a part in Empire building, indeed Scotland went bust trying to build its own Empire
link to heraldscotland.com
Yesindyref2 As Westminster is sovereign technically s30 can be repealed although politically unlikely. 10% of SNP voters back the Union in polls we are talking the majority of party voters. Claim of Right as you affirmed not discussed in judgement by SC and any future Statute at Westminster would be Supreme and the Supreme Court ultimately must accept statute, it cannot change it. Norway is not in the EU and Denmark not in the Euro, not what the SNP had in mind for Scots
HYUFD @ 6.12
Aye HYUFD…. those Countries ye mention all re organised into the the Countries we know today.
But the bit yer missing is that they all formed their Constution to achieve it.
They defined their laws and borders….
The UK Parliament hasn’t done that…. Westminster has bumbled along with the 1707 .Treaty agreement (the clue is in the name “Treaty of Union “, no Constution)
And a Constution is what Westminster/the UK would need to replace the Treaty with if the UK is ever to become the Country you claim or wish it is…
But I’m tell ye now HYUFD they dare’nt try…
The amount of Constutional shit that attempting to do so would throw up…. all the public toilets in Leven getting opened could not cope with…
If Westminster could have easily locked Scotland in with a Constution that would have done it long since… Because they know that one affluent City disnay equal the resources of Scotland… never has and never will…
It’s a hard rain for British Nationals… but there it is, they/you will need tae come up wi something better then “we’ll London’s rich” to convince us the Treaty’s worth keeping…
Whit else ye got?
Hi
HYUFD says at 1:03 pm.
You typed,
“The only country recognised in GB by the UN is the UK.”
WHERE are getting your info? You’re posting stuff here which is pure dead shite!
As for today, the UN recognizes Scotland as a country (yes! It is a ‘country’, not a region!) which is part of the Union of the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland.
That’s from:-
link to quora.com
The UK is NOT a “country” – it is a union of two kingdoms. Before you start spouting your understanding of the status of Scotland, you should really fact-check, not depend on the propaganda you’re obviously absorbing, from wherever.
You also commented at 6:24 pm,
“Scotland is less than 10% of the UK population and only a quarter of the land area.”
Somebody has been gibberin’ braille at you and you have accepted it as truth. (sad shakey head…)
How about this from:-
link to en.wikipedia.org
Scotland comprises the northern one third of the island of Great Britain as well as 790 surrounding islands encompassing the major archipelagoes of the Shetland Islands, Orkney Islands and the Inner and Outer Hebrides.
and
Mainland Scotland has 6,160 miles (9,910 km) of coastline. Including the numerous islands, this increases to some 10,250 miles (16,500 km).
In comparison,
England has 4,422 km (2,748 mi) of coastline,[11] much less than the deeply indented Scottish coastline.
link to en.wikipedia.org
But let’s look at the territorial waters of both countries.
As you can see, the area under Scotland’s jurisdiction, land and water, far exceeds England’s – even if you include Wales’ waters with England’s – but also has something like 90% of the UK’s oil and gas production.
So, we’re not “too wee” and, once we’ve unchained The Unicorn to give our independent government all the fiscal levers that independence brings, we won’t be “too poor”, not with 60% of the EU’s oil and gas production on top of all the rest of our resources, which we could sell to England, if you’re nice.
And, when you look at the success of Scots in all fields over the centuries, we’re certainly not “too stupid”.
Pro-unionists seem to have a monopoly on the latter…
yesindyref2 says:
22 August, 2018 at 3:53 pm
“Scotland would not even be in the G20”
Neither is Denmark or Norway. So what?
Aye, it’s no the size of yer country or economy, but the company ye keep n how happy ye are. Being a part, and a bit part at that, of somebodyelse’s country/ economy isn’t better than having democracy.
“FUD – Fear Uncertainty Doubt. And the other meaning.”
FUD= Federalist Unionist Devolutionist. Is that what you meant? Or the other one….
HYUFD @ 7.11
Again yer taking a statement and running wi it HYUFD
Yer absolutely correct the Supreme Court must rule according to Westminster statute and Westminster makes Sovereign Law for the UK
But… and it’s a big But….
The 1707 Treaty of Union is the foundation document OF the UK/Westminster Parliament..
It’s what gives Westminster decisions the Force of Law…
If there is no more Treaty… not only is there no more UK Parliament there is also no UK Supreme Court and no matter what arrangement Westminster made for England’s Parliament and it’s Courts none of those Courts decisions would carry the force of Law in Scotland…
Nae Treaty nae UK … it really is that simple…
Section 30 or anything else holds nae power here,only TWO bodies can end that Treaty The People of Scotland or the Queen of England representives of ANY one of those two will do to dissolve the Treaty.
A UK Parliament or UK Court has not a thing to say about it, they are instruments of the Treaty.
While one Parliament indeed canny bind another…. They, are all and have always been bound by the 1707 Treaty of Union.
That’s the bit they Don’t boast about… Parlimentry Sovereignty my aunt fanny…
Westminster and it’s Supreme Court must operate within the Treaty!!!
HYUFD says:
22 August, 2018 at 6:12 pm
“Juan That was the sovereign legislative body in Scotland at the time and the people of Scotland already rejected independence in 2014.”
The parliament was never Sovereign, it was the people and has been since 1320. ONLY the people were Sovereign. Scots law is based on that unlike English law. Your monarch was sovereign through the Devine right of Kings nonsense. Your parliament has borrowed your monarchs sovereignty. There’s no sovereignty of of the people in England. You couldn’t even do a revolution right. Should’ve done what the French did. At least they’re actual citizens.
“Germany, Spain, Italy, Belgium, the USA (Texas was a Republic), India through the Maharajah states etc are all made up of former independent countries like the UK is.”
Aye many of those are made up modern countries, though many of them are in danger of reverting back to their original constituent parts. The UK though has never been a country. It’s a bloody Union. Even says so in it’s name! Name me another country that’s made up of countries.
It doesn’t matter how many times you repeat your lies. They’re all still lies. Just like your claim that only 8 type 26 frigates were promised, when it was 13 and still only 3 are on order. That’s less than 25% of those promised, but remarkably better than most of the BRITNAT colonialists promises.
And another thing, HYUFD…
Why is there an “English” National Health Service, a “Welsh” National Health Service and a “Scottish” National Health Service”?
Kinda proves that apart from being countries, England, Wales and Scotland are NATIONS, as well as existing as countries.
SOMEBODY is keeping you in a state of ignorance. Who could that be?
Liz G No they did not, they just absorbed those countries into a whole l, the original countries still have the same boundaries. As no Parliament can binds its successors it is impossible to have a written constitution in the UK anyway. However that also means what Westminster says ultimately goes constitutionally. Scotland will have to broaden its economy beyond reliance on finite oil
Brian Doonethon First line of your link ‘Does the UN recognise Scotland as a nation?’ ‘The short answer is no’ Ha Ha. It also goes on tp day Scotlamd is only recognised through the means of the UK.
The UK also comprises Northern Ireland as well as GB and Scotland is only a quarter of that in land area and less than a tenth in population.
Oil and gas are also finite and will eventually run out
HUUFD @ 9.28
Westminster is bound by the Treaty of the Union and you haven’t demonstrated that it’s not, you have just repeated the one Parliament can’t bind another.. a fact that is not in dispute.
What I asserted was that ALL Parliaments are bound by the Treaty that founded it!
The Supreme Court is not above the Parliament and the Parliament is not above the Treaty.
Westminster can change any laws … but it cannot alter that Treaty..
Stop diverting to oil, or I’ll think ye a coward who cannot hold a position.
The UK doesn’t have a written Constution because of the “ one Parliament can’t bind another rule” but rather because just like the Treaty of Union, it wouldn’t be any Parliament binding it’s successors it would be the Constution that checks it… and fine well ye know it…
The UK wouldn’t write a Constution because it would mean setting aside the Treaty and having to negotiate with Scotland the Constutional framework..
As for the Countries you spoke of… no they didn’t they are where they are because they settled on a Constution…
Think About it… if what you claim was true… the EU would now be one Country and it obviously most certainly is not…
In fact ye can leave that Union without any threat or interference AKA civilised..
Not like this cursed with dishonesty one Scotland’s in..
HYUFD @ 9.34
I know what finite means
It’s just like yer Constutional argument
Liz G The Treaty of Union dissolved the then legislature of Scotland acting on behalf of the Scottish people into the Westminster Parliament which has supreme sovereignty over the whole UK, it’s executive as you say acting on behalf of the monarch
Juan Democracy? Like respecting the 55% of Scots who voted No to independence in 2014
Juan The people elected the Parliament which absorbed itself into Westminster and the people rejected Scottish independence in 2014. In France the people are only sovereign through electing the President and National Assembly. The UK is a sovereign country, its home nations are just ceremonial countries no di