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Wings Over Scotland

Everybody but you

Posted on September 17, 2018 by

There’s a fascinating piece in the Guardian this morning.

It reveals that in attempting to solve the unsolvable Irish border problem, the EU’s Brexit negotiators are – at the UK’s behest – trying to come up with a plan which would preclude its use for Scotland in the event of independence.

That’s an entirely legitimate course of action. Having lacked the courage to establish itself as a nation, Scotland shouldn’t expect to be treated as one by either the EU or the UK (which has demonstrated its contempt by flatly refusing Scotland any voice in negotiations). The EU is quite properly, and admirably stoutly, defending the interests of its member state, Ireland. Would that Scotland had such clout.

But it’s worth taking a second to ponder what it all means.

Because if such a solution could somehow be found (which looks like a long shot), that would leave the following situation:

ENGLAND: Voted Leave (53%), got Leave.

WALES: Voted Leave (52%), got Leave.

N. IRELAND: Voted Remain (56%), effectively got Remain.

SCOTLAND: Voted Remain (62%), got Leave.

The part of the UK which delivered the most resounding vote in the referendum would be the only one that DIDN’T get what it voted for. And even though it showed its faith in the UK in 2014, it would be suffering that fate purely out of UK government spite.

Because there’s no need for it at all. We already know there’s a simple and viable solution to this problem in which EVERYONE gets what they want.

The plan proposed by this site back in July gives all four parts of the UK what they voted for. It’s more practical than trying to “quarantine” Northern Ireland alone, and comes with none of the threats to the peace process that other ideas can’t escape. It’s backed by a substantial majority – more than two to one – of the Scottish population, and we suspect would be enthusiastically endorsed by the rest of the UK’s as well.

But out of sheer, blind hatred of Scottish nationalism, the UK government is utterly hell-bent on punishing Scotland – not for voting for independence, because it didn’t, but in case it might vote for independence in the future.

(Even though, plainly, being treated with a modicum of courtesy for once and actually having their wishes respected would if anything make them LESS likely to vote Yes.)

Scots are living in a country that actively despises them. Because when it comes down to it, even bullies loathe the cowards that cave in to their bullying. It’s no surprise that, however slowly, more and more voters are beginning to wake up to that.

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    1. bobajock says:

      The main problem with NI is that a border would have to be made at the sea … far easier to implement. It is far less of an issue in Scotland where the border with England is fairly simple to police.

      Of course, when your media effectively ignores Scotland .. its the UK’s media – this will never be presented.

      Independence then, to make the issue Scotland’s, not just Eire’s.

    2. bjsalba says:

      I would suspect that like almost everything else that the MSM has touted as “leaked” from the EU negotiations it will turn out to be codswallop.

    3. Brian Powell says:

      I have to say I am beginning to share the Westminster contempt for this complacent and cowardly country.

    4. call me dave says:

      It always had to come down to the distilled essence of the choice between independence and dependence.

      Screw your courage to the sticking place Scots and we won’t fail.

      Apols to Lady McBeth. 🙁

    5. Petra says:

      ”… the EU’s Brexit negotiators are – at the UK’s behest – trying to come up with a plan which would preclude its use for Scotland in the event of independence…”

      They’ll still want to ”use” Scotland’s oil, gas, renewable energy, etc, etc, no doubt. They’ll not be ”precluded”, will they?

      Och well, nothing else for it, other than INDEPENDENCE. Time to leave the hateful, thieving, spiteful, conniving bully-boys (and girls) behind.

    6. starlaw says:

      I think that at the end of the day UK will dump N Ireland as its more bother than its worth, bu it will occur in the last few days.

    7. Socrates MacSporran says:

      Interesting – the simplest solution would probably be to rebuild Hadrian’s Wall, which most historians now regard as being built to aid the Roman Empire’s customs duty collections, rather than to keep out the Pictish hordes.

      I think the folks in Northumberland and Cumbria who suddenly became “Scottish” would quite enjoy the benefits, and the Irish guys who did the work would enjoy themselves too.

    8. Peter A Bell says:

      “…it is likely that whatever border arrangement is eventually agreed regarding the border between Northern Ireland and Ireland would form the model for the border between Scotland and England.”


    9. Yerkitbreeks says:

      Why on earth should England give up one of its “possessions “ ?

    10. Robert J. Sutherland says:

      Oh, a breath of badly-needed fresh air, even if it’s re-stating the damn obvious.

      Stu’s longstanding proposal suits almost everyone except a madly-jealous UKGov, which secretly resents and fears Scotland wanting to go its own way. (Aided and abetted alas by a minority of native loony-tune isolationists.)

      Just think though of how we could watch with glee as London is thwarted.

      Provided of course we actually exercise ourselves to do something effective about it before it’s all too, too late.

      Which is down to us, nobody else. Wistfully imagining that better times will come along by happenstance without bothering to shift when a unique chance is there for the taking? That’s for losers.

    11. A Bruce says:

      Heaven forbid that the Scots should get what they voted for in the EU referendum despite the other constituent parts getting what they voted for.

      Both the UK regime and the EU must be tying themselves in knots over the N.I., problem just in case it should inadvertently give us jocks ideas.

      Absolutely despicable behaviour towards Scotland but do we expect anything else? We’re unique in the world, after all, in needing our neighbours to run our country!

    12. Daisy Walker says:

      If they WM powers (who do not want to totally trash the UK economy – and there must be one or two) had any sense, not only would they adopt this, but they would implement Devo Max as a matter of urgency and totally take (much) of the wind out of the Indy Movement’s sails.

      Don’t think any of us need to worry about either of these things happening.

    13. Macart says:

      Pretty much.

      Yes, I’d say we are despised both by the political establishment, the meeja and of course their respective political support and readerships. Painted as incapable subsidy junkies living from the generous handouts of (to this point) tolerant neighbours and surviving only at great sufferance. We apparently contribute less than nothing culturally, economically or socially. It’s got to be love. 🙄

      No. Logic or reasoning really doesn’t come in to their world and for around 55% of Scotland’s electorate last time of asking. Mind you, nice of them to think of us in their deliberations. And by think of us, that would be ask others to think of ways to frustrate the will of Scotland’s electorate, their interests and their aspirations. So, not really looking much like love then.

      The current UKgov doesn’t give a toss for the peoples of either RoI or N.I.. Their chief concern is that any workable solution shouldn’t give Scotland’s electorate ideas. Tbf, they don’t much care for the people of Scotland either, but they do love the land we happen to inconveniently inhabit and they really don’t like how politics is practised and the public’s priorities are attended to.

      Tick tock folks. It’s nearly make your mind up time.

    14. susan says:

      What slimy bastards WM are. That’s all I can say.

    15. Abulhaq says:

      Brit myths:
      London greatest city in world.
      Westminster the seat of the oldest democracy.
      All governed by a thousand years of the rule of law.
      Beyond ‘the Pale’, the above is more than suggestive of grand delusion.
      I would be so much happier with the SNP were the party to put the knife into such tripe.

    16. jfngw says:

      This would have to be some almost magical wording, if Scotland votes for independence and joins the single market it’s hard to see exactly what wording would exclude Scotland dealing with England in the same manner as the rest of the EU. It is only a plan that could work if Scotland remains in the UK and is intentionally excluded from the EU single market. They really want to tank the Scottish economy, it is their only measurement of success here now. Their hatred is now clouding their judgement.

      It will of course be used in the referendum by them as ‘you will be blocked from EU access’. It looks more like a future propaganda tool than a real threat to independence, unless they can have the words ‘Scotland will never be granted access to the single market’ written into the agreement. They must keep hold of their last possession at all costs.

    17. cearc says:

      They’d dumped NI ages ago but they need the DUP votes to prop up the government (or should that be dictate).

      I think this will swing a few more no votes.

    18. dandydons1903 says:

      Time more folk woke up to the perfidious ones treatment of Scotland. Enough is enough!

    19. galamcennalath says:

      Why treat Scotland differently from NI in present talks? Both want to stay in the EU. Pre Brexit both have large minorities who don’t want to be in the UK. Post Brexit both are likely to have majorities to leave the UK.

      There are BIG differences. And vested interests with the key players.

      – EU member (Ireland) suffers greatly if NI not in single market
      – England wants to ‘keep’ Scotland, but doesn’t care about NI
      – NI has a recent history of open violence

      The EU / single market border south of Gretna will probably come to pass soon enough. Just not in this phase of the UK reconfiguration.

      However, much can happen in the next few months. Lots of possibilities.

    20. Scott says:

      I don’t know what all the fuss is about NI,did the great Scottish Tory leader Ruth Davidson not tell us on the Marr show that the NI problem was fixed a long time ago,oh I forgot she tells porkies and is never challenged about it.

    21. Thepnr says:

      The fact that Westminster have been unable to make even the tiniest dent in the level of support for Independence since 2014 is a problem for Westminster, it’s a major problem and is being treated as such.

      They know that the constitutional future of Scotland is balancing on a knife edge and even though Scottish considerations are being ignored in the Brexit negotiations, in every decision they make they have Scotland very much in their mind.

      Leaving the door open for Scotland to adopt any solution found for Northern Ireland must not be available to as this would likely tip the balance in favour of Independence and they know this. The fear is that Scotland could effectively remain in the EU while negotiating Independence from the UK.

      They are quickly running out of options though, a hard Brexit too, they must believe would also be enough to end the Union. Their real problem though is that even any deal that means Scotland leaving the SM and CU they know will definitely result in a request from the Scottish Government for a Section 30 order for another referendum

      No doubt such a request will be refused and another constitutional crisis then opens up, I have no idea where we would next go in that scenario but it seems a likely one and one I’m sure the Scottish Government have considered if not actually fully expect to happen, so they will have a plan.

      So as I said, there are not many options available that can avoid a minimum 50% chance that Scotland will become Independent. This must be seen as too big a risk so the best they can do is try to delay and delay but in the end that changes nothing. That leaves them with just one thing that might stop another referendum from taking place, at least for now and that is NOT to leave the European Union in the first place giving them another brain splitting headache.

      Looks like they have are running out of ammunition, are surrounded on all sides Scotland, Northern Island and the EU. Surrender to the inevitable looks the only way out for Westminster or will they go down fighting?

      No doubt it will be the latter, get strapped in we’re going for a ride.

    22. Vestas says:

      England only allows independence for colonies when either :

      a) the colony uses force to achieve independence;

      b) England can’t squeeze any more money/resources from said colony AND make a profit on them.

      Take your pick but Scotland isn’t out of resources & England simply CANNOT afford Brexit without those resources.

      I no longer believe Scotland will achieve independence purely via the ballot box.

      England has seen Spain get away with using outright fascism & abuse of law to prevent democracy AND England has a security council veto so they can’t have the same pressure applied.

      Anyone who thinks we’re getting out of the UK using purely democratic means after March 29 2019 needs their head examined.

    23. John Dickson says:

      If WM are really trying to undermine Scotland and it’s economy, is that not killing the goose that lays that golden egg?

    24. Josef Ó Luain says:

      England without Scotland, either in or out of the EU, will be utterly fucked – you can only launder so much of the world’s dirty-dosh before the drains choke-up.

    25. Mochachoca says:

      Boris: “The whole thing is a constitutional abomination, and if Chequers were adopted it would mean that, for the first time since 1066, our leaders were deliberately acquiescing in foreign rule.

      “There is no other country – large or small – that would accept such an arrangement”

      Perhaps he forgot to add “except Scotland”

    26. Gfaetheblock says:

      Rev says ‘in which EVERYONE gets what they want’

      No one voted for a hard Scotland/England border.

    27. Luigi says:

      Petra says:

      17 September, 2018 at 11:40 am

      They’ll still want to ”use” Scotland’s oil, gas, renewable energy, etc, etc, no doubt. They’ll not be ”precluded”, will they?

      I think you will find that the resources you listed are never considered to be “Scottish”. Never. There was a typical BritNat discussion on Brexit broadcast the other day and the topic of wasted North Sea oil resources came up. Yep, they agreed that 30 years of oil production has been wasted by successive WM governments, but it was very much “our (British) oil” that had been wasted. Scotland did not even get a mention.

      The BritNats say: it’s their oil, it’s their renewables, it’s their whisky. Comprende?

      If we can’t even stand up for our sovereignty, what chance do we have holding on to our resources?

      I better stop before my blood boils. 🙂

    28. weegie42 says:

      I agree with Brian Powell. I am beginning to despair of my fellow countrymen. What does WM have to do t this country before we get up off our backsides and say no more. Any self respecting banana republic would have taken to the streets by now. But us, no chance. 90 minute patriots someone once said. How true. Our mantra seems to be someone should do something about this, so long as it’s not me. OK people may have genuine thoughts about being part of UK, I can’t think why, but they are entitled to their views. It is plain we are being systematically ripped off and WM doesn’t even bother to try and hide it anymore. Come on get up off your knees!

    29. tartanfever says:

      Let’s see what the DUP say.

      Will they go along with a different deal for NI to the rest of the UK ? Doubtful if that pushed the Irish unification issue, which it surely would.

      Without the backing of the DUP, May would struggle to hold on to power.

    30. msean says:

      A ll of this rubbish is ,of course,to make sure England gets what it voted for.That’s not anti English,by the way. It is just a fact. Did anyone really expect them to bend over backwards for Scotland?

      The UK concern. The UK is right to be concerned.

    31. galamcennalath says:

      One of the main topics of BT2’s new Project Fear for IndyRef2 will be England as Scotland’s numbers one trading partner. They are preparing the ground to make post Indy trade across the Border appear difficult and costly. Any solution for Ireland which makes might resolve that issue is a threat to their plans.

      Fearmongering doesn’t have the potential it did!

      Almost everything from their 2014 Project Fear has either evaporated, or worse, actually come to pass by staying in the UK! Accordingly, there is much ammunition to use back against their Union.

      I don’t want to see Yes2 run a negative campaign … however this time we probably need tactics with say two positives for Indy versus one negative for the Union.

    32. Scotland's-Man-In-Japan says:

      Brian Powell says:
      17 September, 2018 at 11:35 am
      I have to say I am beginning to share the Westminster contempt for this complacent and cowardly country.


      I feel the same as you. If we cannot gain independence when we have the chaos of brexit, the broken promises, the most cruel and useless UK government in living memory, an equally useless Labour Party and the powers grab – then we don’t deserve independence.

      There are so many Scots who will always vote to retain the Union, no matter what is done to them and their lives. It is an emotional argument for them and even if misery arrives on their doorstep, so long as it’s wrapped in a Union flag, they will accept it.

    33. The wording of the December 2017 agreement has some scope for interpretation but EU was always clear in all related statements that its offer for NI was not applicable to rest of UK. UK government misunderstood this for some months and made various statements suggesting it could reverse UK into NI arrangements. Any change here is entirely at the UK end, in that it has finally understood what it agreed 10 months ago. This is painful to watch.

      If we want to find out how the EU manages external borders we only need to look at Poland. Prior to EU membership it had a relatively open border with the Ukraine. EU membership required them to close the border, no matter how much they protested during accession talks. Chapter 29 of the Acquis is not up for grabs. My advice at the Polish border is to take a good book with you and plenty of water. Last time I crossed it took about 90 minutes.

    34. ClanDonald says:

      This is possibly the only solution that could keep Scotland from voting to leave the UK (apart from Brexit being cancelled entirely) but they won’t even contemplate it.

    35. Dr Jim says:

      If you’ve got a sore back and you drop a pound and a penny you pick up the pound but you’re not going to hurt your back again for the penny

      Scotland’s worth money and strategic territory NI isn’t worth much of anything and England has a sair back

    36. dave Stewart says:

      Some breaking “NEWS”.
      Sir Noel Edmonds is being rushed back from the car rally to take over from RAAB.
      New mantra is Deal or No Deal, he’s got so much more experience with the programme.
      Wondering if Mother Theresa’s next mantra will be based on some other game show like blind date.
      We need out of this, quick

    37. Luigi says:

      Macart says:

      17 September, 2018 at 11:51 am

      Their chief concern is that any workable solution shouldn’t give Scotland’s electorate ideas.

      Too late. Ooooops. 🙂

    38. Luigi says:

      Does WM want to hold on to Scotland? Of course it does.

      Fear not, friends:

      I have a feeling that WM will soon be preoccupied in keeping England together, let alone holding on to Scotland.

      I do say that with a bit of sadness. 🙁

    39. Thepnr says:


      England only allows independence for colonies when either :

      a) the colony uses force to achieve independence;

      b) England can’t squeeze any more money/resources from said colony AND make a profit on them.

      Where would the former colonies Australia, New Zealand and Canada fit in with this theory?

    40. HandandShrimp says:

      No real surprise regarding Westminster. They will make a second attempt at independence as hard as possible. Brexit is bad enough, to see Scotland go her own way would be a blow too far.

    41. Luigi says:

      galamcennalath says:

      17 September, 2018 at 12:48 pm

      I don’t want to see Yes2 run a negative campaign … however this time we probably need tactics with say two positives for Indy versus one negative for the Union.

      Agreed. We cannot afford to be too nicey nicey this time. There is simply too much at stake. People need to be aware of just how awful staying in the “union” will be.

      Big carrots AND sticks are needed. 🙂

    42. Muscleguy says:

      After THAT poll showing NI would vote for reunification if Brexit happened the border with rUK will be down the Irish sea in fairly short order anyway since a reunification referendum is hard written into the Good Friday Agreement. Would that Scotland could have such a cast iron referendum guarantee.

      People in Gretna and Coldstream may disagree about it but it is still true that an EU border between iScotland and Nether Britain would indeed be easier to police than the NI one. If we regain Berwickshire for a large part it will be down the middle of the Tweed anyway.

    43. Doug_Bryce says:

      Tory politicians love to ask why Scotland would exit the supposed “UK single market” to remain in EU.

      In reality Northern Ireland will set a precedent for Scotlands future trading relationship with UK and EU.

      Another reason to delay IndyRef2.0. Clarity and answers on Brexit can only support case for independence.

    44. Petra says:

      @ tartanfever at 12:47pm ……. “Let’s see what the DUP say.”

      Good point tartanfever.

    45. Arbroath1320 says:

      Just a wee outside the box thinking, sort of, moment here.

      Feartie was supposed to have provided the E.U. with her “final” offer on Brexit including a workable N.I. border solution by mid October for their meeting to agree, or not, to the Brexit deal. This is only about 4 weeks away. Oops I forgot they moved the date to mid November now haven’t they so she has now got 6 weeks to get her act together over the border.

      In my too wee, too poor, too stupid outlook on life in this corrupt broken union she will STILL be clinging on to her Chequer’s offer in 6 weeks time as the saviour of her beloved “union” and party! Of course the E.U. will tell her then as they are telling her now …. NO deal hen!

    46. Vestas says:

      @ Thepnr 1:13pm :

      Australia was still de-facto governed by England as recently as the 1970s where the governor-general dismissed the elected govt in 1975. In fact they nearly ended up with big-ears ruling them directly! The royal prerogative laws are still on the statute books of both countries. Go figure 🙂

      NZ have/had the same laws on their statute books.

      Not what I call independent if big-ears and the Saxe-Coburgs have the last word….

      Re Canada – I think you’d have to ask the USA on that one as they exerted pressure. Probably weren’t happy with English controlled land next to them & who could blame them for that 😀

      When brexit happens then England REQUIRES Scotland’s resources to back up their borrowing yet people seem to think they’ll just say “oh well that’s ok then as you voted for it?”. Rees-Mogg & his lot or Jeremy’s red tories? I think not.

      We’ll see. Its going to take more than a Yes vote to make this happen now 🙁

    47. galamcennalath says:

      dave Stewart says:

      Deal or No Deal … blind date

      Who wants to be a millionaire
      Weakest link
      Dragon’s den
      Call my bluff

      … you’ve cracked it! The Tories are using the Big Bumper Book of Game Shows as their negotiating manual. 🙂

    48. Robert Peffers says:

      Abulhaq says: 17 September, 2018 at 12:00 pm:

      ” … I would be so much happier with the SNP were the party to put the knife into such tripe.”

      I’ve said it to you before but it seems I’ll have to say it yet again. The SNP at both Westminster and Holyrood do dismiss the lies that are spouted by the Westminster Establishment MPs & MSPs and our SNP members at the EU parliament certainly do at Brussels.

      Just because you, personally, can’t be bothered to get your information from other than the Westminster controlled and funded United Kingdom media, who simply do not report the truth, doesn’t mean the SNP are not doing their job.

      Here is not only our own Alyn Smyth sticking it to them but so also are the European Unions’ top guys. Then watch as the vast majority of the EU parliamentarians get to their feet and give Alyn Smyth an unprecedented standing ovation:-

      There is no other people, no other party, no other organisation in the World that can REgain Scottish independence for Scots and Scotland than a majority of the legally sovereign people of Scotland backing a Scottish NATIONAL Party.

      Not Common Space – Not the Loony Left and most certainly not one or all of the Westminster unionist parties.

      It can only be a strong grass-roots movement electing the SNP to power with a mandate for independence. Anything else is doomed before it begins.

    49. galamcennalath says:

      OT, but still Brexit. Gina Miller hits out at ‘people’s vote’ ….

      I pretty much agree with her. The proposers appear to actually want a re-run so voters can simply cancel Brexit. They won’t say so and try to veil their referendum as being something different.

      Voters having a say on final deal. Utter bollocks. The final deal won’t be known for many years and could be anything.

      Voters having a say on the Withdrawal Agreement and non binding future trade proposals. Why? Other than to simply get it all cancelled.

      What choices in this subterfuge other than Remain? WA or No Deal? How many questions, or options? STV?

      The Tories won’t call EURef2 so we have to have a GE first!

    50. Vestas says:

      Seriously though peeps I really believe that anything other than a landslide yes vote (without the unionists boycotting it) is just going to be the start of the process.

      We’re not in 2012 or 2014 now. The right-wing lunatics HAVE taken over the asylum across the globe.

      I think there’s little point in assuming Westminster will behave at all rationally/legally after a yes vote. In fact I think its verging on naive to believe they will even acknowledge it, even with a S30 order.

      I think post-yes vote then the MSM will say its invalid, EC will express doubts about validity of count (if its high yes % ), muddy up the waters & then Putin/some other demagogue will be blamed and vote will be declared null.

      Anyone see Spain being sanctioned/suffering a year on from locking up the elected pro-indy politicos? I doubt most of Europe thinks twice about them.

      Yes someone will no doubt say its law there etc – Westminster could make the same law here easy-peasy, after all they invented the “UK Supreme Court” & got away with it didn’t they? I don’t remember any allowance for Scots law being subjugated to English judges in the Treaty of Union but there we are….

      I think its going to be a longer road than most hoped. Best to get on with it now,rather than waiting for the English lunatics to decide for us in 6 months.

    51. Cactus says:

      Everybody but you… couldn’t have come at a better time, as aye was listening to the wireless radio promoting some product for sale… to ONLY certain peoples…

      Aye will now use that analogy as follows:

      BR UKexit… excludes Scotland & Northern Ireland”


    52. Thepnr says:

      The Tories don’t do coherent, they firefight jumping from one bad idea and straight on to the next. It is therefore no surprise that they have failed in their attempt to dampen the Independence flame as they have been mistake after mistake since the day after the referendum.

      First up was Cameron announcing EVEL from the lectern on Downing Street which was quickly followed up by completely ignoring the Vow and a stubborn headed refusal to deliver to the people of Scotland that which had been promised.

      Next up he even had the stupidity to go ahead with an In/Out referendum on the EU believing staying in was a certainty and unbelievably getting that wrong too.

      His replacement, May has done no better, she rushed ahead with Article 50 without a clue as to what she hoped to achieve in the UK’s future relationship with the EU. Easiest deal ever said Fox, we’ll have our cake and eat it said Boris. All of them wrong of course and now they are in the middle of an almighty mess, all of their own making.

      You’d think that they couldn’t have made things any worse but they succeeded in doing so by calling a snap General Election and then losing their majority, the utter fools. This forced them into a confidence and supply arrangement with the DUP and it is this that has painted them into a corner over what to do about the major stumbling block that is the NI border.

      It’s not going to end there either, there is more to come, more mistakes and I think we can be certain of that. The whole crumbling edifice that is the Tory party is ready to collapse around them as it surely will. There is no escape for May or the Tories from their shear incompetence in government, all bridges are burnt and Independence is coming, some might even say that all this was meant to happen.

      Is it Scotland’s destiny to be an Independent country?

      It looks that way to me and I hope we all can work together to make it happen.

    53. Breeks says:

      Vestas says:
      17 September, 2018 at 12:36 pm

      ……Anyone who thinks we’re getting out of the UK using purely democratic means after March 29 2019 needs their head examined…


      Sovereignty is the key, and legal recognition it. It is opinion proof, democracy proof, propaganda proof, non-transferable, inalienable and permanent. It is also incompatible with a referendum on sovereign independence.

    54. mogabee says:

      freedom lover

      This guy is a serial pain in the proverbial and sets up groups as easy as throwing salt into a gaping wound!
      I’m always amazed he can do business while running his country down!!!

    55. Jack Murphy says:

      TODAY. UK’s No-Deal Brexit—— the IMF warned 3 hours ago:

      “The International Monetary Fund has warned that a “no-deal” Brexit on World Trade Organization terms would entail “substantial costs” for the UK economy.

      The IMF said that all likely Brexit scenarios would “entail costs”, but a disorderly departure could lead to “a significantly worse outcome”.

      The challenges in getting a deal done were “daunting”, it said…………”

      Where’s Ruth Davidson and David Mundell when Scotland needs them?

      Tucked away on BBC Business News

    56. Valerie says:

      All this anger, pain and utter disrespect we feel, is worth zilch, unless the wider Scottish population can be made to understand what is happening.

      Yeah, we voted No in 2014, so we are shit on London’s shoe. They hate, but simply cannot do without us.

      They can’t do without us, we are a partner, but we have zero status. Our resources, our collective intelligence is worth nothing, that buys us the Power Grab.

      I’ve just got my first batch of leaflets, having rejoined SNP, to make sure I’m doing my bit. It’s pretty wishy washy, so I’m hoping it’s the first in a series.

    57. Gerry says:

      @vestas 12:36

      My solution is to declare UDI an hour before the polls open and let the unioists take part if they like, because the default position then is independence. That proposal leaves WM with the issue of flatly refusing a variance in Sch5 of the Scotland Act, and the Claim of Right trumping the Act in the event of a favourable vote for independence.

      Puts the ball back at the feet of WM but the result is that they have to kick it one way or the other.

      WM refuses = support for indy soars
      WM does nothing = we hold it anyway
      WM allows Sch 5 to be varied in advance = Happy days

    58. Robert Peffers says:

      @Vestas says: 17 September, 2018 at 12:36 pm:

      ” … I no longer believe Scotland will achieve independence purely via the ballot box.”

      You are entitled to your belief, Vestas. That doesn’t make it a fact.

      ” … England has seen Spain get away with using outright fascism & abuse of law to prevent democracy AND England has a security council veto so they can’t have the same pressure applied.”

      Except Spain did not, “get away”, with it. The guys in charge are no longer in charge and the people they wanted to extradite were not extradited by EU countries, (including Scotland).

      ” … Anyone who thinks we’re getting out of the UK using purely democratic means after March 29 2019 needs their head examined.”

      That’s a matter of your opinion but here is a clip of events in the EU parliament debating chamber. In this clip the top EU men tear into the UK Brexiteers and the majority of the EU parliamentarians give an unprecedented standing ovation in support of Alyn Smyth who is an SNP MEP.

      Yet again I post the truth of EU parliament support for Scotland

      Scotland has lots of support in the EU but diplomatic protocols prevent them openly stating them. Nicola Sturgeon has help both formal and informal meetings with many EU leaders and EU Member state leaders.

      If you think for a moment these people are not aware that the United Kingdom is a two partner kingdom and not a four partner country then you are sadly mistaken.

      Do not believe the lies told by the Westminster controlled and funded media. Here’s one they have pushed for years that is a downright proven lie.

      They have consistently claimed that Spain will veto any Scottish request to become/remain an EU Member State.

      In the first place the person they quoted as their source is none other than the former EC (NOT EU), President, “José Manuel Barroso”.

      He is NOT Spanish and thus cannot speak for Spain. He was the Portuguese Prime Minister before becoming Portugal’s EU Commissioner.

      In fact the Spanish Government has categorically stated that Spain will not block a Scottish request. Why would they? Spain has the EU’s largest fishing fleet and they fish Scottish fishing grounds. If Scotland is a non-EU member Spain gets thrown out of Scottish waters.

    59. Fred says:

      @ Muscleguy, we already have Berwickshire!

    60. jfngw says:

      I suspect this will never be reported in Scotland by the MSM, then people on twitter will question why this is. I would suspect the funding of nearly every paper by the government by supplying them with reporters may give you a hint.

      Government supplied journalist to what claim to be independent newspapers. The arm of the UK government now has its tentacles in almost every media outlet. Once they impose the copyright laws then they feel they will have the internet output restricted and once again we will be MSM message fodder.

    61. Abulhaq says:

      @Robert Peffers
      Thanks for the link but i have yet to encounter a full on and systematic attack on the fundamental myths of the Union itself. These myths in general circulation among Scots politicians of the stamp of Davidson, Gove, Fox, Brown and the historian Ferguson are powerful in shaping the worldview of probably half Scotland’s population. They have deep roots in the Scottish mentality.
      The struggle/fight for national freedom is as much psychological as it is about law, economics, politics etc. The psychological part is probably the hardest as it exposes ‘the patients’ dependencies and fears as well as challenging some deep seated beliefs.
      We know Scotland deserves and can do better but something, not just ‘the system’, is holding us back. I run out of ‘excuses’ when discussing Scotland with sympathetic friends. ‘Take your freedom, just like other peoples have had to’, is the mantra. Independence will require an act of faith, a belief in ourselves and a readiness to resolutely clear the accumulated detritus of the British centuries from the scene.
      Btw I research widely, and not just in English, and rarely consult the UK mainstream for ‘enlightenment’.

    62. Liz g says:

      Valerie @ 2.58
      Yes Cumbernauld have just had loads of their own leaflets made up.
      They have used Indyposter Boy’s stuff,I’m sure they would let you have some if you could use them…
      They are also organising leaflet drops
      If yer intrested!

    63. schrodingers cat says:

      getting out of the uk was never going to be easy, but i agree with wgd, the date 29th march 2019, is irrelevant

    64. Scottish Steve says:

      If Scots continue to sit under all this by voting No again, we don’t deserve independence. What a snivelling little nation we are.

      In fact, if we do vote No again, let’s just go the whole nine yards and declare ourselves a region of Greater England since being a nation is just too scary.

      How does Scotlandshire sound to you lot? Sticks in my throat but hey, if the majority of North Brits prefer it, what can we do?

    65. HandandShrimp says:

      Had a look at Stu’s Twitter and saw a picture of Daisley’s article in the Mail … tea down the nose burns like feck!

      The headline could easily have been the Daily Mash and in fact was all the funnier for being the Mail.

    66. orri says:

      Not sure if it was the intent but surely questions must be asked about why, if they are to be exported, calves can’t be directly from Scotland to the European mainland?

      Other than a crude attempt to destroy a part of Scotland’s farming infrastructure is the point that in order to export we need to do so through other parts of the rUK?

    67. Thepnr says:

      It may well be that the Electoral Commission no longer have a say in any election or referendum in Scotland if new Bills announced two weeks ago in the Scottish Government’s Programme for Government 2018-19 are voted through, also solves the “will they won’t they?” right of EU citizens to vote.

      Electoral Franchise

      This Bill will include provisions to extend the franchise for Scottish Parliament and Local Government elections to protect the franchise for EU citizens. This Bill will be brought forward after a consultation on prisoner voting has been undertaken.

      Electoral Reform
      The Bill will implement a range of electoral reforms, some of which will use the 2016 Scotland Act powers. These include proposals included in the recent Electoral Reform Consultation to extend the powers of the Electoral Management Board, and make changes to Boundary reviews. It will also include some technical matters, for example transferring oversight of the Electoral Commission to the Scottish Parliament.

      This has nothing at all to do with the possibility of a second Independence referendum of course and it’s purely coincidental that the people of Scotland will be given a choice over how they choose to be governed in the future.

      Choose Independence or eat up and enjoy the Full English Brexit.

    68. susan says:

      I think we all want the indyref asap but we have to ca’ canny over timing. I hope I’m not mistaken in this but I trust Nicola Sturgeon and the SNP not to be out-manoeuvred.

    69. Luigi says:

      Getting out of the UK was never, ever going to be easy.

      But we are getting lots and lots of critical support from the BritNats, who seem hellbent on alienating a majority of scots. All we have to do is not give up, and slowly but surely, more and more people will come round to our side. Keep the ratchet pressure on and the Brit Nats will screw up yet again. Slowly the Freedom Wheel turns, cog by cog. There is no going back for Ukania now.

      The BritNats are not invincible. They are but mice and men. Particularly sneaky and nasty mice and men they may be, but mice and men they are nonetheless. And the best laid plans of mice and men…. 🙂

    70. Robert Peffers says:

      @John Dickson says: 17 September, 2018 at 12:37 pm:

      ” … If WM are really trying to undermine Scotland and it’s economy, is that not killing the goose that lays that golden egg?”

      No John it is not. Perhaps you have not considered the many ways Westminster has things stacked to benefit Westminster. There are far too many such scams and I’m certain we have not even scratched the surface of this downright theft of Scottish resources but we have figured out more than a few of them.

      Let’s start with the more obvious and longest established thefts. The most obvious is the claim that Westminster has legal sovereignty over Scotland and the actual relative status of legal sovereignty in each of the only two kingdoms that make up the United Kingdom.

      In Article on Union 19 of the Treaty of Union the two Kingdoms are stated to have, for evermore different, and thus independent of each other legal systems and it states the People of Scotland are legally sovereign. How then can Westminster, which is not the actual parliament of England, have sovereignty over Scotland when the last sitting parliament of England put itself into permanent recession in 1707 and there hasn’t been a Parliament of England since? It was that, in recess, parliament that was delegated the legal sovereignty on the English only monarchy of William & Mary in 1688. There was no united Kingdom government until 1706/7.

      So what that means is that, only as far as the law of the Kingdom of England goes, Her Majesty the Queen of England is still legally sovereign in the 3 country Kingdom of England but not in the Kingdom of Scotland.

      Yet it is Her Majesty’s Treasury, Her Majesty’s Customs & Excise and they get all the Alcohol Duty from Scotch Whisky and the over 70% of UK gin distilled in Scotland. They collect all of the revenue from the up to 98% oil & gas revenues from Scottish waters, VAT, Road Fuel Duty, Betting tax and then they have the hard neck to tell us they subsidise us with English Taxpayer’s money.

      Now do you get the picture? There is no such thing as English taxpayer’s money – every penny is United Kingdom taxpayers money and last time I looked Scotland was still one of the only two kingdoms of the United Kingdom.

    71. Thepnr says:


      “but mice and men they are nonetheless”

      And their leaders like Rees-Mogg and Johnson are “nice but dim”

    72. Dr Jim says:

      Beware the media: and especially Adam Boulton

      SKY news in co-operation with other broadcasters not content with their role in misreporting political news or distorting it or influencing it now demand full control on deciding how it’s conducted in the shape of forcing political leaders on to televised debates

      Now whether you believe that these debates are good bad or you are indifferent to them isn’t the point, what is the point is television ratings and and coverage and control of the political system

      Needless to say political nobodies like Vince Cable have already expressed delight at the idea presumably because he thinks his party will gain more TV coverage, but the dangers of this move by broadcasters is in their underlying motive

      We all remember Trumps behaviour towards Clinton in the American debates and no matter what side you were on the winners were the broadcasters because they made politics into a game show like Big Brother and used the worlds social media to help them boost their own viewers, so big win for broadcasting there and whomever was behind the Trump campaign

      The danger in making it law to force political leaders to do head to head debates are that if you’re a political Elvis who’s really good at performing you obviously stand a better chance of coming out the winner in these things because in general the public are pretty stupid and vote for performance over policy (Farage)(Trump) to name just a couple of total numpty chancers but someone who may be an excellent leader of a Nation but is a lousy public performer loses, therefore a Nation loses the better candidate

      The media claim that these debates can show the policies of the candidates more openly, well that’s just smokescreen for idiots because when the media control the interviewer who controls the questions who controls the tone of the debate then it’s the media who decides the outcome not the politician and guess who loses…

      Well it’s us because the media using the worlds idiots will control parliaments next and not the voters because what’ll be the point of voting at all when Adam Boulton or A.N Other has decided it all for us

      Do we get a buzzer round next or a YES from me or a golden button

    73. Liz g says:

      Orri @ 3.21
      Yes Orri, they way things are currently set up most exports need to leave from an English port.
      I must admit I wonder why the Scottish government didn’t attempt take them at their word and introduce emergency legislation to divert live exports from Scotland,that would have put their gas at a peep…. but it will either be reserved or the infrastructure isn’t in place to do so…
      So probably a case of pick yer battles..
      But that’s a whole other conversation… We are getting way off topic,quite soon into the new thread…

    74. Gary45% says:

      Scottish Steve@3.18
      I’ve been saying this for a while, but also include if its a no vote at Indy2 we get rid of the Scottish Parliament, ministers the whole lot of them,then we are run entirely from Westminster, then the sorry blinkered wee parochials will no longer be able to blame “that ESENPEE,” “that wee kranky Sturjin wummin” and “that Alic Sammin.”

      There is a lot of the Scottish electorate too ignorant/not interested, to appreciate what the SNP Government had done for them.
      If Scotland shits the bed again, hell mend them.
      They were warned.

    75. Thepnr says:

      I don’t think anyone reading Wings doesn’t know what Brexit will bring, glad tidings it ain’t and the message will get through to fellow Scots as each day passes and the news worsens.

      This can’t be hidden nor the consequences avoided for too much longer. The Guardian:

      More than 3,000 Jaguar Land Rover staff will go to three-day week

      Jaguar Land Rover has announced that more than 3,000 staff will move to a three-day week at its Castle Bromwich plant in the West Midlands, only hours after the carmaker was accused of “scaremongering” about the impact of Brexit by a Conservative MP.

      The mistakes are mounting up, embrace the Tory incompetence. It’s our ticket out of this dysfunctional Union.

    76. Haggishunter says:

      The spin they will try put on this is predictable. All the media is predictable as regards Scotland.
      Corbyn will be smiling, a United Ireland and an oppressed Scotland. He’s just as bad as the Tories, and it’s all about the money, NI costs the UK money, Scotland is a huge exporter, earner, oil producer, a huge sea area and a land mass that is a play ground for the plutocrats as well as a dumping ground for nukes

    77. Craig P says:

      galamcennalath says:
      17 September, 2018 at 12:48 pm

      One of the main topics of BT2’s new Project Fear for IndyRef2 will be England as Scotland’s numbers one trading partner.

      I can’t find figures for Ireland’s exports to Britain in 1910s but back on the eve of independence in 1916 I would guess it to be in the region of 70% of total exports, give or take 10%.

      Today it is less than 14% of exports.

      When people tell you how important rUK is to Scotland’s economy you have to ask “is that because Scotland’s economy is being run for the benefit of rUK?”

      Because Ireland’s economic story tells us that we can make more money and be less dependent on rUK when we have our own economy and are not just a feeder region for the centre of power.

    78. Robert Peffers says:

      @Gfaetheblock says: 17 September, 2018 at 12:44 pm:

      ” … Rev says ‘in which EVERYONE gets what they want’
      No one voted for a hard Scotland/England border.”

      I, for one, wouldn’t like to bet on that, Gfaetheblock.

      I know at least four Englanders who most certainly did vote for that. If I remember correctly their claim was – “it was to keep you F*****g scrounging Jocks out of England”.

      Only trouble was they thought the hard border they were speaking about was Hadrian’s Wall. It seemed to come as a bit of a shock to them that Hadrian’s Wall is completely well within the country of England. I had to laugh at the looks on their faces when I thanked them for the gift of a chunk of North England.

    79. yesindyref2 says:

      OT – defence – QE
      Current status is getting ready for the first F35-B landing on the QE, a joint effort between basically the UK and the US. This includes a series of non-landing tests. No date set yet, rumours are it’ll be before the end of the year but of course if there’s an official date and it reuns over, the media will be full of it. The QE has already been certificated for rotating wing operations (helicopters).

      It’ll almost certainly be a Yank pilot. Well, the Yanks have already landed and taken off with F35-Bs on the USS Wasp – an amphib assault ship, albeit with a length overall of 257 metres, compared to the QE of 283 metres.

      But some people will probably be a bit miffed it’s not a UK pilot. It’ll also be off the US seaboard, not the UK’s.

      As for numbers, the UK already now has 9 F35-B in the UK, at RAF Marham, and the RAF is expected to decaler the IOC (Initial Operating Capability) later this year.

      So it’s on schedule for the QE to have a limited operating capability in an emergency, in 2020.

    80. Les Wilson says:

      I think all of us following Wings fully understand what Westminster thinks of us, so they are acting to form.
      Now we have again just how great our cross border trade is with England is. It is obviously an important issue for both sides.

      Well, as I have pointed out many times,our market is far more important to them, yet they constantly get way with the pish about how much it would hurt us if we were independent. They do this of course do exacerbate the cringe into Scots once again.

      Do not forget, we buy very much more from them than they do us, Billions more.
      If Indy is successfully we will have May up here trying dance a Highland jig, more humbling than anything she did in Africa.

      They cannot afford to lose the Scottish market, for then to choose not to deal with the New Scotland would be another wilful
      act of self harm. Therein is their reasons by using reverse psychology by telling us we would suffer when the difference is it is they, who would suffer more.

      After Indy is won, they will be banging down our doors for help have no fear of that, problem is can we really forget all they have done to us? Will we open our door to them? maybe aye, maybe naw. One thing is for sure, we will do as WE want to do whether they like it or not.

      I do not know why our politicians do not throw that back at them whenever they try to use cross trade against us. I hardly ever hear of any doing that and rarely read about it. Yet it does remain a solid fact.

    81. Gerry says:

      Robert @ 3:37

      “It was that, in recess, parliament that was delegated the legal sovereignty on the English only monarchy of William & Mary in 1688”

      It’s a convention parliament when there’s no monarch, and I believe it was Feb 1689 that the convention parliament in England issued the bill of rights.

    82. HandandShrimp says:

      Craig P

      It was close to 90% and Ireland’s per capita GDP was barely 60% of that of the UK.

      I don’t think too many in Ireland would for a return to pre 1922 economic relations tied to the UK.

    83. Greannach says:

      Maybe “Brexit” needs to be renamed “Wexit” when Wales and England leave together to form “Rumpuk”.

    84. Robert Peffers says:

      @tartanfever says: 17 September, 2018 at 12:47 pm:

      ” … Without the backing of the DUP, May would struggle to hold on to power.”

      I assume you have not read today’s politics news on the British/English media yet, tartanfever?

      I quote Theresa May – “It’s my Brexit or no deal.”

      My guess is that the EU cannot accept May’s deal but may allow the discussions about the BR UKexit to continue to attempt some form of acceptable by the EU to a deal.

    85. Shinty says:

      Orri – the true irony being that the calves going on the ferry had come from English farms going through Scottish ports. (according to Willie Harper Chairman, NFU Scotland)

    86. Nana says:


      Some good news for a change

      US couple living in Inverness win legal fight to stay in UK

    87. yesindyref2 says:

      There’s a great picture of the USS Essex, also an amphib assault ship 257 metres, to give a little idea of what the QE can look like, though the Yanks do have a great way of laying out their decks!

      It’s worth pointing out by the way that an enthusiasm for defence matters, is NOT the same as having any enthusiasm for what politicians do with the assets.

    88. jfngw says:

      @Craig P

      It is not a healthy situation to be dependent on a single country for your exports, you are open to what basically comes down to blackmail. One of the advantages of independence is to expand the number of countries directly exported to, in fact it is needed even if we are not independent.

      Obviously this will be opposed by the unionist parties, the last thing they want is a proof that Scotland is could be a viable independent country. That’s why they put so much effort making sure the China agreement fell through, they would rather trash Scotland than see it succeed when being run by the SNP.

      They revel in GERS, the more negative the number the more reassured they feel. They have no ambition for Scotland beyond being a supplier to the greater British project, amply exhibited in the referendum by a Mr Brown who wasn’t even able to refer to us as Scotland but preferred North Britain.

    89. Brian Powell says:

      As far as Scotland is concerned having no border with the clusterf..ked, chaotic malicious, ignorance driven rUK, which is sinking in debt, cut off from the world is the sh.ttiest situation to be in.

      Inflicting it on ourselves means we get and deserve the sh.t.

    90. Referendum1707 says:

      Valerie 2.58

      “I’ve just got my first batch of leaflets, having rejoined SNP, to make sure I’m doing my bit. It’s pretty wishy washy, so I’m hoping it’s the first in a series.”

      Good for you, were there more like you. btw maybe you should get back to them with ideas to improve the effectiveness of them. (Thinking about how to get a glossy flyer printed, costs etc. Taken from something similar I’ve seen already on Rev’s Twitter or somewhere, it showed an elderly gran type and a youngster about 10 yo. A speech bubble above the smiling gran says “And what would you like for your birthday dear?”

      Smiling youngster looks up and speech bubble says “A free and independent Scotland, gran. Please don’t vote against our country again.”

      Does anyone know anything about how and where to get something like that produced? Costs per 1000 etc?

    91. PictAtRandom says:

      Robert Peffers says:
      17 September, 2018 at 4:25 pm

      @Gfaetheblock says: 17 September, 2018 at 12:44 pm:

      ” … Rev says ‘in which EVERYONE gets what they want’
      No one voted for a hard Scotland/England border.”

      I, for one, wouldn’t like to bet on that, Gfaetheblock.


      “According to our recent Panelbase poll, it turns out that a hard border at Berwick and Gretna is a price that Scottish voters are – by a margin of more than two to one – willing to pay to stay in the EU.”

    92. yesindyref2 says:

      OT – defence again
      Oh, and here’s a picture of more like what I’d want for the Scottish Navy – 199 metres and less than £250 million for South Korea at 2009 prices, so perhaps £400 million for Scotland. Plus £100 million per F35-B, which could be added later as the HMSS Scotia could be just helicopter to start with.

      The beauty of this, by the way, is that it will infuriate some of the more rabid “BritNats” as they will still say that Scotland couldn’t afford it, in the process making asses of themselves, as the comparison with Denmark and what Denmark has for their navy taking into account their higher GDP but lower percentage of GDP defence spend blasts the “BritNat” out of the water. like a 16inch salvo from the Missouri.

    93. Maria F says:

      “the EU’s Brexit negotiators are – at the UK’s behest – trying to come up with a plan which would preclude its use for Scotland in the event of independence”

      I think this makes sense but only from the point of view where England is totally dependent on Scotland’s revenues, not the other way round.

      If Scotland was to remain in the EU as NI, I really don’t see how the British nationalist crooks in Westminster would be able to steal the 24 devolved powers from Scotland and seize control of Scotland’s assets. In other words, if Scotland was to remain in the EU with a border like NI and therefore following EU regulations, the tory crooks would not be able to capitalise on Scotland’s assets to sell them and draft agreements and dodgy “deals” away from the EU and its regulations. It looks to me that Scotland’s assets are so precious to these Westminster crooks that it is almost as if they have nothing else to offer. So much so that they are violating every democratic value and going against every logical and sustainable in the long term approach in their quest to retain control of those assets in the short term. It seems to me that these people are not longer doing long term, sustainable planning and I wonder why.

      There is also of course the matter that the crooks in Westminster may not want Scotland any near the European Court of Justice for obvious reasons…

      Now, this is undoubtedly disgusting, particularly because a bunch of England MPs are unlawfully nominating themselves as absolute rulers over Scotland without mandate and without our consent, going against our Claim of Right and deliberately harming Scotland.

      But let’s try to look at if from a positive angle:

      The yoons and of course Scotland’s office’s interventions in social media targeting soft no’s, claim that the main trade partner of Scotland is the rUK and therefore declaring ourselves independent and remaining in the EU would mean a hard border with England losing 50 bn of our trade. They of course never mention that England trades with Scotland far more than that figure and if a hard border is in place between Scotland and England, Scotland will not be the biggest loser, England will be. But the implication is that the hard border would be imposed by the EU, and this of course is our fault for wanting to be independent.

      But this decision by the UK gov twists the omelette completely. Knowing about this decision by the UK gov to deny the same benefits to Scotland than to NI with regards to the border and their absolute determination to drag Scotland out of the EU what come may, we are now in a position to say to those yoons that the hard border will only go up because the UK gov planned for it all along. Scotland’s independence is predictable at the point of negotiation of this border and there is the option to give Scotland the same as NI. Yet, the little England exceptionalism mentality and tunnel vision of England MPs currently in the UK government are choosing unilaterally, purposely and without the mandate or consent of Scotland, to deliberately harm England’s future trade prospects by denying Scotland a border like the one they are prepared to give to NI, and all for the sake of harming Scotland in the short term.

      Denying the same border to Scotland than to NI means forcing a hard border on England in the future should an independent Scotland rejoin the EU in one way or another, as it more likely than not.

      So c’est la vie. We can now say that it is not Scotland who has chosen to put that hard border but England in the form of her MPs. And if England wants a hard border, who is Scotland to stop her?
      This border has nothing to do with Scotland because its legitimate representatives are being denied the opportunity to take part in the negotiations.

      With that hard border in the future Scotland may lose trade but that can recover by moving to trade with the 27 other members of the EU and other countries currently negotiating with the EU. England however, is, with that decision, throwing down the toilet 60 bn in trade with Scotland, something that it can hardly afford considering the over 100 bn in deficit of trade of goods it already has.

      We just need to have a quick look at where most of the food in our supermarkets comes from and where most of our products are packed in: England. The greatest loser of a hard border between Scotland and England is going to be England, not just in trade as such but also in jobs. This idea of denying Scotland the same as NI comes across as a totally desperate measure they are taking and that may be very, very harming in the long term. Give them enough rope .. and all that, I would say.

      But in a way, perhaps this hard border between Scotland and England will be a necessity after all if the neocon England MPs get away with that dodgy deal with USA and other countries that cannot trade with the EU because their food standards are not up to EU levels. If England’s quality of food falls below EU standards, maybe we would not be able/want to import their products after all and the hard border will be more a protective barrier for our own produce rather than the restriction for trade Mundell’s minions are wanting it to be seen as.

      With these dumb decisions taken by the tory cabal I can really picture now Scotland watching England squirm in pain and beg soon after Scotland’s independence. And that is something that gives me no pleasure.

    94. Proud Cybernat says:


      Perhaps you mean this image?

    95. Thepnr says:

      What you’re all witness to right now to is the end of a once great empire covering half the globe. It was greed and a thirst for power that built that empire and it is the very same that will finish it.

      Scotland will be reborn, a new and better Scotland that is as capable of achieving great things in the future as it’s people have done in the past. Scotland as a small nation has always punched above it’s weight, that we needed England to do so has always been a lie perpetrated by those that wish to keep the Unicorn chained.

      Those chains are rusted and have rotted through having been eaten away at and neglected by 311 years of corrupt rule and governance. All those that had the power more than 300 years years ago still have it today and would like to keep it that way until the end of time.

      But things have changed, we no longer doff our caps and lower our eyes when our “betters” give us a loaf. We want the whole bakery, we built it and we own it. We grow the wheat and grind the flour, it belongs to us and with Independence we will take it all back. The real fear of our British Nationalist rulers is that we will do a better job of sharing out the loaves than them, they fear equality more than anything else.

      We’re nearly there and things are still going in our favour, let’s not screw it up this time. We must continue to increase support by making ourselves visible, showing that support for Independence in normal and growing. If you can, get to Edinburgh in three weeks time where the biggest march ever in Scotland will take place. Join a Yes group or the SNP or any other Yes supporting party. Volunteer to deliver leaflets or chap doors, man stalls. Do something if you possibly can, I think the day of reckoning is getting close.

      In between all that work pull up a chair, kick the shoes off. Grab that big bag of popcorn and watch as they continue to aid us in our goal by screwing it up for themselves.

    96. Dan Huil says:

      The SNP must get angry. And if they’re already angry they must get much much more angry and say and do something loud and radical, something even the scummy britnat media cannot ignore.

      Remember how such a relatively quiet action as walking out of the house of commons got the media’s attention and resulted in a surge in SNP membership.

      The SNP must stop playing by Westminster’s rules. The brexit boorach is giving Scotland an ideal opportunity to bring down the whole rotten stinking ediface that is the so-called united kingdom. We must take it!

    97. Scottish Steve says:

      @Gary45 @3:52pm

      If the Scottish Parliament was abolished and the SNP was still voted in at Westminster in significant numbers, you can bet your bottom dollar that unionists would blame them for all of Scotland’s ills. It’s not in a unionist’s DNA to ever blame glorious Westminster.

      You are right to say many Scots are ignorant of what the SNP has done for them. They are somewhat protected by Westminster’s excesses so being in the UK doesn’t seem all that bad to them. The irony is that it’s not that bad because we have the SNP acting in our interests, but the unionists blame them for all and sundry.

      Think of it this way. Jupiter is deeply scarred from constant asteroid collisions. Scientists say that if Jupiter was not there to take the impact, the Earth would be hit a lot more often. The SNP is our Jupiter and the asteroids are sent Scotland’s way by Westminster.

      Remove the Scottish Parliament and things will get a hell of a lot messier up here. But it’ll never be London’s fault. Even if we reverted to direct rule from there. Unionists are conditioned to forever look south and wonder, “why cant we be just like the English?”

    98. Frank says:

      “Business owners are no longer prepared to sit back and allow momentous decisions on the future of Scotland to be taken without full engagement with those who will be directly affected”
      — Struan Stevenson

      Sounds to me like a strong plea FOR Independence

    99. Tackety Beets says:

      Les Wilson @ 4.29

      Les, I have posted here several times over the years about the UK structure whereby rUK supplies Scotland general goods and there is financially more for them to loose should THEY refuse to deal with iScotland.

      Take a look round your house, what do you see a PC, fridge ,TV ?
      How do they get there ?
      Mostly via an online supplier from the south, or for those like me who still support your local sheriff via a local shop.

      Lets assume local shop be it an multiple or Indy store the process is similar.
      99.99 % of imported goods have their main distributor in England, which is usually an admin office only, stock is not held there but in an EU warehouse. The retailer purchases from said distributor.

      Heres the real issue going forward.
      Currently the “BRAND” has a Holland or Belgium based warehouse which supplies ALL the EU countries. This warehouse despatches Items direct to the Retailer in Scotland but the admin is dealt via the Office in England.

      In the event of iScotland, our Scottish retailers would have an option to deal with the English Admin office or ANY of the EU Admin offices, this would be decided by the idividual Brand how they would pref to operate. the goods would still arrive direct from EU warehouse as it does now.

      I have also been noted that several UK Admin offices have already moved to Ireland for cost & simplicty.

      There are other products “non branded” eg Furniture where Retailers are now purchasing containers & importing from far east themselves.
      iScotland would benifit from increased port activity @ the usual ports discussed here before.

      How many HGVs head south empty or low loaded, only to return fully laden ?

    100. Name (UserID) .: bittie45 says:



      A word to describe the BBC et al.


      (interestingly it was eean-very-small who reported our Professor to his boss)

    101. Iain mhor says:

      Even my auld mither said after 2014 “Hell mend us, we’ll pay for this, you can’t slap a bully and then do nothing, you learn that in the playground”
      Her view was the 2014 ref was the slap. I concur.

      Brexit terms and any perfidious scheme they’re cooking up won’t be known before the next Scottish Elections. They’re on their ‘Hotel California’ exit and the EU won’t care much about that because it gets what it wants for longer; so it’s go for a referendum without the caveat of ‘knowing terms’ or stand on an Indy ticket in 2021.
      Scotland cannot affect the negotiations, or ever know the terms, it’s a stitch-up and I doubt very much if the EU are leaking anything to Scotland. The EU could have proposed such a Scottish border solution but didn’t – implying it’s not the solution they’d like – if they even want a solution at all.
      It will take some specific headline grabbing actions again by the Indy parties (well ok SNP) to get any message out to the voting populace that its Parliament is being shafted. If there is one thing that polls show a massive support for, it’s that across political persuasions Scotland loves its Parliament. Bizarrely “Scotland is being shafted” gets you fewer new votes than “Your Parliament is being shafted” At least that’s what polls show.

      Well, I know some people mistrust and despise polls, but whether they are weaponised or not, they are ultimately pretty good sources of info and predictors. I don’t really see an Indy Psephology Team in action (Wings great polls aside) using the data and targetting specific demographics to lever votes. You can be assured all the nudging is happening from the Unionist camp who are utilising the data. Blanket generic leafletting for example is laudable, but targetted messaging is more effective.
      Where’s the YES targetted breakdowns for each node?
      I do what I can, but we could really do with a professional political co-ordinator, with the resources to collate & disseminate the data from the top down. If not that then at least individual YES nodes identifying potential demographics. It’s time to move away solely from generic blanket campaigns.

      So yes, when polls tell us that Women voting with the same pattern as men would have swung Indy (but they didn’t) what was missing from their message and what was presented that was irrelevant, what areas held that majority specifically?Extrapolate examples for other demographics and run a targetted campaign. Our opponents do it. There are now far too many variables splintering voting intentions and a one size fits all message may not be enough. The only ones with any traction, are variations of: Decisions for Scotland, Made in Scotland (by you)
      Brexit in-out, deficits, trade agreements etc become noisy interference and a distraction from core requirements. Just remember many people have simple needs, as overheard recently “Ach I don’t care, I’m voting for whoever gives me my free bus pass” So, how do roaming charges and no cheap flights to stay in touch with family abroad sound? Carers allowances and free prescriptions? Better than fiscal deficits, currency unions and Irish border solutions I bet.

      I posted some stats yesterday which may have looked gloomy to some but not if you look at what’s behind the figures -‘No’ and the Britnats, Unionists (call them what you will) are entrenched, static gaining nothing and have been for a long time.
      The Yes movement is the fluid one and therefore more unpredictable. The general state of two equal ideologies is a 47-47% split with ‘Don’t knows’ holding the balance. As @Luigi replied (gold star) the BT message was “If you’re not sure, just vote No”. When Independence becomes the safer, surer option, we’re sorted. The whole ‘uncertainty of Independence’ attack won’t fly now, because everything is uncertain.

      According to everything I can glean from psephological study, Independence has a core of 43%. 72000 converts will be a core of 45% (that’s core, not vacillating, not susceptible to jumping ship)
      Someone tell me we cannot garner 72000 converts through targetting. We’re not even competing for the available pool, ‘No’ can’t grow a core beyond what they have, they can only fight to keep their core. After that two cores are battling for undecideds and may the best team win. That’ll be us please.
      I don’t give much of a monkeys about the Brexit boorach, there is hee-haw I can do about it, it will play as it plays. I’m interested in getting 72000 votes the most effective way and planning that.
      That is something I can affect and so can you all.

    102. Robert Louis says:

      Dan Huil at 515pm,

      “The SNP must stop playing by Westminster’s rules. The brexit boorach is giving Scotland an ideal opportunity to bring down the whole rotten stinking ediface that is the so-called united kingdom. We must take it!”

      Absolutely. I am genuinely frustrated at how awfully compliant and ‘nice’ they still are about it. Forced Brexit on Scotland is just months away, and the clock is ticking down.

      Compare ANY interview with NS, and how she thinks of brexit, with that I saw just a few days ago, where the Sinn Fein president, laid it out in no uncertain terms that brexit was not voted for by N.Ireland and what the Tories are trying to do is completely unacceptable. Their was was no ‘let’s compromise’ or any of that rubbish we hear from the SNP (and which has (who knew!) been utterly ridiculed by Westminster.

      That single point needs to be the first and last thing said by anybody from the SNP in ANY interview and on any subject. Get angry FFS, because the people of Scotland certainly are. Scotland did not vote for brexit, and the English tory Government has no mandate whatsoever to drag scots out of the EU against their clearly expressed wishes.

      Until the SNP start talking tough on this subject, and stop being so ‘nice’ and ‘compromising’ and ‘reasonable’, nothing will change.

      I know people don’t like to hear that, but it’s the truth. N. Ireland might walk away with the best deal, and Scotland will get f***ed.

      Meanwhile…in other news… we might hold a referendum some time..maybe..when the weather’s better..let’s wait a year or two, or three first. Let’s sit back and watch brexit happen against our wishes and utterly destroy Scotland first.

      This is why I don’t comment very often now. Soooo frustrated.

    103. Les Wilson says:

      Tackety Beets says:

      Something else, the flog Scotland all kinds of insurances, funds and many other financial services. According to what I read yesterday it huge business for them down south.

      I first thought about our trade situation when having to drive the M8 and the M74 very frequently. The lorry’s that come up here 24/7 are none stop. What Scottish shops are in our High Streets or Shopping centres, very few.

      If you want to buy a suite or furniture you are dealing with an English company more often than not. We deal day in and day out with most english supermarket chains etc etc. We buy everything from them.

      We are worth a veritable fortune to the Treasury, far more than they say, involving many many thousands of jobs down south. They supply us everything and coin it in. But shhh, we are not supposed to know. I think if a proper analysis was done somehow, we would be shocked how much we buy from them.

      Yet they only talk about how WE would lose so much, the reverse is true.
      They need us to be dumb, so they can get away with their lies. They need us more than we need them, of that I have no doubt. Scotland is their golden goose.

    104. Referendum1707 says:

      Robert Louis 5.59

      I feel your frustration and some, and certainly plenty more do too. In which case surely by now some of that frustration must be percolating up to them and they’re getting the message that they MUST start being more confrontational towards WM and the media.

      What else they gonna do? Keep on playing nicey nicey with psychopaths and expect their supporters to accept it?

      Proud Cybernat

      Yes that must be the image I saw, I think it’s pretty good and asked on here for advice about how/where to get something similar printed but no one bothered to reply so I either try and find out myself or forget it.

    105. Lochside says:

      Westminster is imposing democratic dictatorship on Scotland in the same way the Unionists in N.I did for half a century until the civil rights movement began and the Brits and Loyalists attacked the marchers and the Roman Catholic communities and started the ‘Troubles’ demonstrating as ever, their brutal intransigence.

      The Brits have always done this and being ‘nicey’ is no bloody use. We have voted at every election since 2014 with a majority for the SNP and Greens, the Independence supporting parties. We voted to remain in the EU by a 62/38 percentage. Yet, here we are marooned in dead space suffocated by a State media lying and suppressing the truth.

      But worst of all a mandated party led by weak, indecisive and frankly spineless ‘leaders’. 125,000 people joined the SNP, most in the past 4 x years, but not for our country to be denigrated and sullied by insulting imperialistic neo fascists in the S.E. of another country.

      We face plunging tied to the rotting English political corpse into the depths of economic, political and social despair without any recourse to escape. We need to assert our Sovereign right to remain in Europe only by having leadership with the bravery of the Catalans. We need to challenge Westminster over the breaches of the ACT OF UNION. Only by doing so can we demonstrate our right to be recognised by the world. We do not need English assent to hold bogus plebiscites or referendums to prove we are a nation.

    106. Hamish100 says:

      robert louis
      we all have a degree of frustration– who doesn’t.
      But let’s keep our energy for the forthcoming battle as it will be that. We can win but the tory liebour machine is starting rumble.They will try and run down our elected members, our voters, websites and our activists. So no pre-meditated actions. Beware of agent-provocateurs urging action.

      Its all down to timing and so far the First Minister has got is spot on. The battle looms!

    107. galamcennalath says:

      TMay saying it’s a binary choice between her deal or no deal. She’s becoming quite the stand up comedian. Next year at The Fringe maybe?

      If there is ‘a deal’ then it’s a backdown on the Irish backstop combined with a fudged vague statement on the future.

      Will the backstop be acceptable to the DUP? Probably not!

      Will the fudge be acceptable to the far right? Maybe, maybe not. Depends on whether they believe the final outcome in a few years will be hard.

      The fudge means a ‘blind Brexit’.

      Will the EU go along with a blindexit? Maybe, if they believe the final outcome in a few years with be medium to soft.

      Will WM as a whole go along with a blindexit? In other words, enough loyal Tories? This is what TMay is banking on.

      If there is no ‘deal’ agreed, then do the Tories expect to survive until March? I can’t see that. Labour are fair champin at the bit for a GE.

      TMay is being foolish, over optimistic, or have’n a laugh.

    108. Maria F says:

      Les Wilson says:
      17 September, 2018 at 6:02 pm

      “If you want to buy a suite or furniture you are dealing with an English company more often than not. We deal day in and day out with most english supermarket chains etc etc. We buy everything from them”

      That is exactly what I see too Les. Everything around the house, from furniture to clothes, to toys, to food, to books, to DIY stuff, to home and car insurance, most things come from down south. Even food that is allegedly Scottish is taken down south to be packed. Scotland is being deliberately kept as a consumer, rather than as a producer.

      I think it is not only the amount of direct revenue they get from our shopping activities and of course the corporation tax due to economic activity in Scotland, but it is also the number of jobs that are being created and sustained due to all the economic activities in Scotland. And let’s not start with how much revenue is left in London airports due to the centralisation of flights.

      Can you imagine where Scotland would be if all those jobs were here in Scotland instead and all the corporation tax due to Scotland’s economic activity was paid here too? For starters our population would increase rather than decrease. This is the reason why they will not let Scotland develop and prosper, because if it does it is not longer a consumer of England produce but rather a producer on its own right and therefore a direct competitor to England.

      In addition, it is only by forcing Scotland as a consumer rather than as a producer that they can continue claiming that Scotland spends more than it generates: most of the jobs that supply Scotland are down south and therefore our young people goes down south seeking work. I am convinced that this enormous imbalance in the producing/consuming for Scotland is kept on purpose.

      I totally agree with you: Scotland is worth a fortune in natural assets revenues, consumer revenues and as a jobs creator and that is why these crooks are doing everything in their hands to stop independence and therefore stop Scotland’s economic growth. That is why, even when it was already stated in the McCrone report 40 years ago that Scotland needed a different economic model to the one UK gov was using, nothing has changed. They need Scotland as it is, as a consumer and underdeveloped.

      What I find most distressing of it all is that Scottish Labour and Tory politicians are using the trade thing as a weapon against Scotland when you don’t need to be the sharpest tool in the box to take a look at the products in your supermarkets and to where most of your home items come from to realise that the country that is benefiting the most from the current arrangement is England and to the massive detriment of Scotland. My conclusion is that these people do not really care an iota about Scotland and that is what I really find more difficult to stomach.

    109. galamcennalath says:

      ” It’s no-deal Brexit or my terrible plan, claims woman who should call an election “

      … or engineer a mechanism to cancel the whole thing.

      Or, to be really daring TMay could call referendums for Scotland and NI. “Accept Brexit or bugger off”.

      Lots of options available. 🙂

    110. Hamish100 says:

      I see those bad foreigh frenchy people are still preventing the english /brits from fishing in the ENGLISH CHANNEL. How dare they. Maybe when you see the attached map you may think the fishing area is in La Manche. Vive La France.
      As an aside I don’t see any more comments suggesting that one of the boats from Scotland had been fined for breaking fishing rules.

    111. Robert Peffers says:

      Les Wilson says: 17 September, 2018 at 4:29 pm:

      ” … Now we have again just how great our cross border trade is with England is. It is obviously an important issue for both sides. “

      Oh! For goodness sake go and do a bit more research and thinking about this, Les.

      You should have learned by now that nothing the Westminster controlled and funded media tell you is ever what it seems and it always bears close examination, not of the figures themselves but of the methodology.

      The first thing is that for as long as I can remember there has been several Westminster scams going on that affect the figures but are never mentioned.

      How can you calculate Scottish exports and English/UK exports when the whole thing is fixed in favour of Westminster?

      For as long as I can remember they have always boosted English infrastructure and cut back or closed down Scots ports and airports. Not only that but kept the road network poor.

      They have good reasons to do so. They fixed the system in England’s favour before I was even born.

      Here’s why and how.

      They decided to do the recording of export figure by calling things that leave the United Kingdom from a UK country exports of that country – it doesn’t matter where the goods are grown, processed or manufactured. They are recorded as exports of the UK country where they left the UK from.

      Now here’s the real facts I know from my own observations. I went to two different secondary Schools as I first took what was then called a Technical Course. Then I transferred to an academy for the last two years. Both schools were in Leith which was then Scotland’s largest and busiest port.

      Leith was full of Whisky Bonds and every Scottish Distillery had bonds in Leith. The Whisky came into Leith and was bonded. Then Bottled then exported from Leith Docks throughout the World. Mind you some of it also left the UK via what was then Turnhouse Airport.

      So the Whisky, Gin and other spirits were Scottish Exports. There was also several breweries in Edinburgh and Leith and in surrounding central Scotland towns.

      So where did all that business go? Where is it bonded now and from where does it leave the UK? Leith has not been a major Dock Town for a very long time.

      They ran down Scotland’s infrastructure while building up English ports and airports and now all that Scottish Produce and products go through the UK books as English Exports even although they can only be made in Scotland.

      There’s the fiddle – what is made in Scotland has become English exports. That’s just scratching the surface of the scams that make nonsense of the statistics.

    112. Luigi says:

      I have this awful feeling that, when Mrs May’s awful Brexit deal finally reaches parliament, that enough of the Red Tories will come to her rescue (yet again).

      Hope not, but we all know the Red Tories and that this is a real possibility.

    113. Dave McEwan Hill says:

      Gfaetheblock at 12.44

      England voted for hard border with everybody. Why would it be any different for Scotland (except of course they think they own Scotland)?

    114. Clootie says:

      …eat your cereal!
      …move on, nothing to see here!

      Take your pick. This is the Union that Scottish Labour and LibDems fight to save.

    115. Chick McGregor says:

      Is Scotland really so bad that it is just about the only country on the planet England has a trading surplus?


      Is it just a paper based aberration symptomatic of the UK’s uniquely creative internal accountancy practices?

      Jury’s out.

      Oh wait, their back already.

    116. ScottieDog says:

      Scotland will get its say. I have no doubt, but the SNP will be doing the asking with HUGE opposition from MSM.
      The press will crucify the “SNP Government” for abstaining over the chequers proposal.
      If we thought the air war was bad last time, just watch this space..

    117. Thepnr says:


      I don’t believe the SNP will abstain on the Chequers proposal, Joanna Cherry was quoted at the weekend of saying that the SNP will vote against any deal that does not keep Scotland in the single market and customs union.

      “There is a serious chance of a deal by mid-November involving the UK backing down on the Northern Irish backstop and a fudged political declaration regarding the future relationship.

      It is unlikely to be acceptable to the DUP or the ERG. Labour want a general election so most of them will vote it down and there are no circumstances in which the SNP could support a deal which takes Scotland out of the single market and the customs union, so we will also vote against.”

    118. Abulhaq says:

      DAN HULL
      The SNP will have to get considerably more assertive before this brexit mess is through. The Scotch lawyer and constitutionalist tendency which seems unwilling to loosen up unless there is a cast iron guarantee of respectability ought to be pensioned off.
      The walk out was a great gesture, who cares what the Brits thought, but was neutralised by the sheepish crawl back.
      Scotland is now marginal to events. That is partly attributable to a problem with pro-active political ‘strategy’; the SNP responds to events but is reluctant to manufacture them. It is not the thorn in the side it could and ought to be. The three C’s obtain: cautious, conservative, conventional. Not the stuff to give old mother May and brood the vapours.

    119. Dr Jim says:

      Being a consumer of goods made in another country is no more a disadvantage than the other way round, if you make something but don’t have customers you’re the one disadvantaged, so it works both ways

      The trade argument about England is fake political non argument

    120. Terence callachan says:

      It upsets me to see people calling Scotland cowardly and weak, two thirds of Scottish people voted for Scottish independence in 2014, it was the huge number of English people living in Scotland that make up a third of the NO vote in Scotland that swung it in favour of the NO vote.
      That is why they made such a huge thing about tactical voting, they know that when it comes to Scottish independence they can rely on the English to vote NO in a Scottish independence referendum and can rely on the English to switch from Tory to labour or lib dem whichever is going to be effective in keeping SNP out in local elections and general elections.
      I wish people would wake up to the fact that England is keeping control of Scotland by making sure that there are always enough English people living in Scotland to swing it their way, you can be assured that Cambridge analytical and other similar organisations have all the data and resources to ensure that enough English people are offered jobs in Scottish government , local authorities , hospitals universities schools and other government influenced areas of life, you just have to work in one of these places to know I am telling the truth.

    121. wull says:

      Abulhaq says:
      17 September, 2018 at 3:08 pm

      Fully agree with your post, Abulhaq. The psychological front goes to the heart of the matter. There is a bit within huge numbers of us that has been internally colonised by centuries of incessant propaganda.

      Sometimes brutal, often quite subtle, but – in one form or another – propaganda nonetheless, endless, constant and never ceasing. Lies, lies, lies and more lies. It might not look or sound like propaganda, very often we don’t even notice it, far less recognise it, but that is precisely what it is.

      Even many of its proponents very often don’t know what it is, and don’t know the nature of what they are saying. The internally colonised spread the message, and help others to become as internally colonised as they are. They spout what they think is their own thinking without realising that they have been pretty much brainwashed and conned into thinking it. Which only makes it all the more insidious, and all the more effective.

      Insofar as these are ingrained habits of thought, they are pretty hard to dislodge. Especially when they are lazy habits of thought, which have taken up residence in minds that don’t want to think things through, or assess the pros and cons of genuine arguments. We have a lot of work still to do on that vital front. Your comment in that regard hits the nail on the head.

      Robert Louis says:
      17 September, 2018 at 5:59 pm

      I fully sympathise with what you say there, Robert Louis, and often feel much the same as you do. At the same time, I try not to get dispirited. And I am still confident that whether or not the SNP are getting their strategy right, and even if (as often seems to me – but I am not infallible) they are making a hash of it, the wider movement towards independence is still on track … When it will come I do not know, but I am sure it will. Whatever mistakes might (or might not) be being made on the way towards the goal, that goal is still well in sight and we are definitely going to make it one of these days.

      So, whatever disappointments and frustrations we might feel, there is no need whatsoever to despair. To the contrary …

    122. Calum McKay says:

      It’s been pretty clear Ireland (ROI) would have more say on how Scotland brexits than Scotland will.

      If you don’t take care of your own affiairs and are not willing to do so, you should not be surprised when others (uk), take advantage of you and treat you with contempt!

    123. McDuff says:

      I’m all for a hard border with England after independence because when we become a wealthier fairer and more prosperous country our southern cousins will flood into Scotland in even greater numbers than they do now.

    124. North chiel says:

      Agree entirely with “ thepnr @ 0752 pm” . Why would our elected SNP MP’s abstain on a Brexit vote that takes Scotland not only out of the EU but also out of SM/CU . The vote must be categorically against such a proposal whether “ No deal or Chequers deal” . Simoultaneously, if this vote is passed then Indyref2 has to be called to give the people of Scotland the mandated choice of a second Independence vote. Of course the Westminster establishment “ backstop” to save the “ precious precious union” could then come into play via a GE or the ultimate “ backstop” a second EU referendum . But that’s another story.

    125. Gfaetheblock says:

      Dave mcewan hill at 19.28

      I canny speak for all English, but a significant minority voted remain (so not supporting hard borders generally). For those who voted leave, there suggestion of a hard Scot/eng border was never discussed as far as I can recall and for all those living across the south of Scotland and north of England, this would be a nightmare.

      Unionist and remainder Scots would be unlikely to support this approach either, so really an answer that Yessers, and some in NI supperters. Hardly everyone!

      BTW, I have no better option rather than cancel Brexit as it is a stupid, ruinous idea.

    126. crazycat says:

      Pedantry alert:

      Brussels nearing impasse with May over Irish border proposal

      impasse (noun):
      a situation in which no progress is possible, especially because of disagreement; a deadlock

      Presumably what was meant was agreement, accord, compromise, or some such.

      If not, and it really is an impasse, perhaps there is no need for concern (yet).

    127. Thepnr says:

      Fuck me the cringe is strong tonight. Oh woe is me, how sad.

    128. Robert Peffers says:


      Here is another thing that highlights how the SNP Scottish Government’s work at Holyrood is airbrushed out of existence by the Westminster funded, owned and influenced SMSM. How many Wingers even know about this internationally important incident in Scottish comparatively recent history?

      Even among those who know about the Rolls Royce factory incident, how many knew it was being featured in Holyrood? Why were not the SMSM proudly proclaiming it with banner headlines?

      Were the unionist biased SMSM and broadcasters ashamed of the Scottish workers brave actions? It did after all act against the United Kingdom’s arms trade.

      Here is the Holyrood chamber debate as shown by Holyrood TV:-

    129. Gfaetheblock says:

      Pict at random @16.48

      Thanks for the link, but you kinda prove my point. A somewhat leading question on a hypothetical proposition, and about half (heavy influenced by SNP supporters liking the pseudo-indi option) supporting it means that does not work for everyone. By a huge margin.

    130. Rock says:

      “That’s an entirely legitimate course of action. Having lacked the courage to establish itself as a nation, Scotland shouldn’t expect to be treated as one by either the EU or the UK (which has demonstrated its contempt by flatly refusing Scotland any voice in negotiations). The EU is quite properly, and admirably stoutly, defending the interests of its member state, Ireland. Would that Scotland had such clout.”

      Rock (27th August – “Underneath the Goodyear blimp”):

      “Scotland was on the verge of independence immediately after the Brexit vote.

      The unionist parties were without leaders and completely lost, the SNP had 56 out of 59 MPs and 50% of the vote, the EU’s eyes were (favourably) on Scotland.

      But Nicola squandered a once in a 1000 years golden opportunity by wasting more than a year flogging a dead horse – a separate deal for Scotland which was never going to happen.

      The result: Nicola outsmarted by the collusion between Saints Theresa and Ruth on one hand, and Corbyn on the other, fall in SNP support from 50% to 37%.

      It is my prediction that there will be a “snap” Brexit and the SNP will be caught napping and unable to hold a second independence referendum.

      Or another “snap” Westminster election with the SNP again losing support.

      Despite the pretendy “sovereignty” and boasting of the clueless pompous armchair pundits posting here, Scotland is again as far away from independence as ever.

      If they succeed in neutralising the Rev. Stuart Campbell and WOS, independence will be “stone dead” for at least 620 years.”

    131. Liz g says:

      Thepnr @ 8.29
      I think it’s the date Alex,and everyone will probably be a bit down,mad,sad tomorrow and the 19th as well.
      Hopefully this is the last anniversary…. Fingers crossed..

    132. Thepnr says:

      @Liz g

      Dates do seem to be a touchy subject with Independence supporters right enough.

    133. Phronesis says:

      Contribution written by Just Fair for the visit by the UN Special Rapporteur on Extreme Poverty and Human Rights, Philip Alston, to the UK from 5 to 16 November 2018.

      ‘The UK’s public deficit reached 2% in the year ending March 2018,8 but this figure does not reflect the economic cost of poverty in terms of public services, healthcare, achievement gap in schools, adult social care, housing and homelessness, and police and criminal justice.

      The cost of UK poverty has been estimated at £78 billion per year, which is around three times more than the estimated savings from welfare reforms…

      The tax and welfare cuts have had a regressive effect on social protection. The cumulative impact assessment by the Equality and Human Rights Commission (EHRC) shows that key human rights requirements have not been met: namely, the principle of proportionality, non-discrimination, protection of most disadvantaged groups and independent review. The largest cash gains from changes to income tax and national insurance contributions were enjoyed by the wealthiest 30%…Equality is of paramount importance for individual freedom and meaningful choice in a free society, and growing inequality within a country suggests that the government is not doing everything in its power to guarantee an adequate standard of living for all…

      To ensure that Brexit does not turn into a backdoor regression in human rights protection without adequate parliamentary scrutiny, the UK should bring economic and social rights home by enhancing the status of international human rights law in the national legal system.

      The economy tanking, the degradation of all aspects of society is everything to do with WM political failings and nothing to do with the EU. The damage of Brexit will be entirely self-inflicted. The cost of poverty- put that on the side of a bus.
      WM denying Scotland’s fundamental right to stay in the EU is justification enough to leave the UK.

    134. Hamish100 says:

      Poor rock. He tries his best but the FM is the best politician in the Uk. He has May and Rees-Mogg heaven help us.wee ruthy is gone back into hiding.

    135. Iain says:

      After Brexit england will cease to be a manufacturing country as no market is going to pay a 10% premium for any goods.
      What do the brexters not understand about England not having any industry.
      Do they think all the major industrial manufacturers are bluffing?
      I don’t think that an independent Scotland will need to worry that England won’t sell us goods.
      They will be desperate to sell anything to anybody.

    136. yesindyref2 says:

      Dates being full of fibre are good for the digestion though. I suspect unionist trolls eat a lot of sugars and carbohyrdrates which is why they’re so flatulent.

    137. Dave McEwan Hill says:

      Rock at 8.56

      You’re quite right,of course. That’s why the SNP has become the second biggest party in the UK with new members tripping in every day.

      An of course they are right. Ruth Davidson is the mostest popularist political figure in the whole world (with lower ratings than Maggie Thatcher at her worst).

      Do us a favour and desist from sticking and pasting previous posts.

    138. Bill McLean says:

      In my opinion, and being fed up with the apparent lack of activity to take us forward in our struggle for independence, we need to up the game. Look how many new members the walk out at Westminster delivered. I firmly believe, that timid and cowardly as some amongst as are describing Scots, we prefer a fight – let’s give them one (metaphorically speaking)!

    139. Thepnr says:

      This year alone more people have been marching in support of Independence than in all the 5 previous years from 2012 to 2017.

      There is the potential for the next march in Edinburgh in less than 3 weeks time to be the largest march yet.

      Well known Independence figures like Wee Ginger Dug, Lesley Riddoch, Gordon Mackintrye-Kemp have travelled all over Scotland talking to people in their local towns and even villages about Independence and encouraging them to even greater efforts.

      A week on Saturday the SNP plan to use their huge membership to talk to people on the doorstep which in their words is to “help us learn where the nation is”. This is what some people have been asking for, it is gathering data that will help better target those that can be convinced. It can also be seen as a very large poll as to what is the support behind a vote for Independence now.

      The Scottish government have been battling against Westminster in the Supreme Court in order to prevent a power grab, in Holyrood two new bills are to be put forward that guarantee the rights of EU citizens who live here the to a vote even if we get thrown out of the EU.

      The second bill will end the supervision of Scottish elections by the Electoral Commission and put that directly under the supervision of the Scottish Parliament.

      As I see it there is plenty going on and not everyone is sitting on their arse carping from the sidelines at the efforts of others. Anybody can help the Independence cause just by offering that help where it is needed or just by joining in on a march that will open the eyes of people on the street as to our growing support.

      Absolutely everyone can do their own wee bit even if that’s just wearing your Yes badge or talking to your neighbour. Nothing stopping us so let’s do it.

    140. Petra says:

      Some great informative posts on here today. What a difference. Thanks folks. All you have to do now is keep up the good (truth) work on here, join the SNP and / or donate, financially support Indy sites if you can, buy the National / Sunday National and convert one person each, better still two (or more). Not exactly outwith our capability, is it? No being hung, drawn and quartered for us.

    141. Jock McDonnell says:

      Great cartoon in the Sunday Times yesterday.

      Vince Cable at the conference lectern, lugubrious coupon. The slogan behind him reads:
      ‘Forgotten but not Gone’.

    142. Petra says:

      @ Iain at 9:37pm ……. “Ruth Davidson.”

      She’s on Scotland Tonight (STV) at 10:30pm, as far as I can make out. If that’s correct, it’s amazing don’t you think? No sign of her for weeks now. No proper interviews relating to current key issues, but when it’s to talk about herself lo and behold she can magically appear out of nowhere.

    143. Jockanese Wind Talker says:

      I think whoever it was (sorry I forget which one of you posted) is correct.

      Ruth Davidson is getting out before she is found out.

      I think it has finally sunk in with some in the establishment “Stop Brexit or lose Scotland and her natural resources as well as your biggest trading partner”

      Why else would Sky finally point out the Right Wing Fascist scum attracted to UKIP and Brexit.

      Will we see similar reportage in regards to Right Wing Fascist scum attracted to Ruth Davidsons (TM) Conservative & Unionist Party in Scotland, The OO and Brexit?

      I live in hope.

    144. Collie says:

      Brexit then Indy…

    145. Valerie says:


      Spain has been awfy quiet, whilst they were sharpening their knives. Upping the ante, while UK crank up the shit show

    146. galamcennalath says:

      “…. while the political declaration is not legally binding, its terms should be clear and that they will be held to by the EU during the trade deal negotiations in the possible 21-month transition period after Brexit “

      French say no blind Brexit. Let’s hope they hold their position on this.

      Perhaps there are factions in the EU? One willing to accept a woolly statement of future trade, one wanting it largely settled now.

      We do not want a blind Brexit. We must know what is planned so Scotland can have its say on the matter in an IndyRef.

    147. ian stewart says:

      contact this man and tell him to have no part in the Tory shafting of Scotland

    148. Gary45% says:

      A wee O/T (Not sure if already posted on other posts)
      Because of mainly watching political stuff on YaTube, relevant items appear on our screen.
      This came up tonight, so we started watching.
      “The Spiders Web-Britain’s Second Empire.”
      Eye opening stuff.

    149. Robert Peffers says:

      @yesindyref2 says: 17 September, 2018 at 4:58 pm:

      ” … OT – defence again.

      What on Earth would an independent Scotland want with an aircraft carrier?

      Aircraft carriers are only offensive weapons. They have no defensive uses whatsoever. The function of an aircraft carrier is to take a floating airstrip to a far off country in order for your aircraft to attack that foreign country.

      Air defence is strictly in and around your own airspace and your land based airfields in Scotland are within the range of any defensive aircraft Scotland would need to employ for defence.

      The only longer range aircraft Scotland would need would be long range surveillance radar pickets for protection of our oil and gas installations. Scotland has no overseas colonial interests we need to protect.

    150. TJenny says:

      Valerie – can you summarise what it says as it’s behind a paywall.

    151. Iain mhor says:

      Oh dear, Terrence is a bit sad, I’m sure he has a final solution for his problem (but doesn’t quite mention it) and dear old Rock with his magic point in time!
      The day, or is it a week after Brexit, or 1 month, 2 maybe? (Not sure really, never says) where Yes voters outnumbered No voters (err nope) and with a wave of a wand Nicola conjured UDI (was it that, or a snap referendum? not quite clear which) Indy happened right there anyway (wherever it was meant to be) Before the polls showed the same old, same old within 8 weeks and the moment vanished like snaw aff a dyke.
      Such lack of clarity and specifics from someone who can predict the future eh.
      Och backwards casting an e’e on prospects drear and forward 620 years tae guess and fear. Oh woe.

      Ocht awa and shite, bubbly jocks! – I’ll get on wi’ converting ma 72000 – nae bother tae a man wi a mission.
      Wi’ a grin and a wave and a how d’ye do – G’night all.

    152. Nana says:


      Here’s your link

      Spain seeks tougher legal guarantees on Gibraltar in Brexit deal

    153. Col says:

      Gary, I watched the spiders Web documentary last night. Eye opening indeed. The first thing I did was share it far and wide with a brief description to hopefully get people interested. Please everyone if you have a spare hour and 18 minutes watch it! It’s a bit slow to begin with but worth the watch definitely and be sure to share it with your friends and family.

    154. Capella says:

      Looks like the thread is almost debugged this evening. Good.

      I was bingeing on The Bodygurad tonight, first three episodes on YouTube…shhh, don’t tell the BBC.

      Threre was an interesting article on it in Random Public Journal pointing out that the BBC is changing tack and going for soft power. The bodyguard is Scottish with the stereotypical faults, anger management, alcohol abuse and hard man persona (well he is a bodyguard).

      But he’s LOYAL to the Establishment. So far anyway.

    155. schrodingers cat says:


      i think spains point about accepting an indy scotland is based on the section 30, this is because this document is a joint statement from both wm and hr and as such if there is no disagreement between wm and hr, other foreign governments have nothing to say eitherway.

      the issue of spain and the eu rejecting an indy scotland would only arise if there was a disagreement between wm and hr, eg, in the absence of a s30, in which case other governments are forced to take sides. this is something all goverments are very wary about, for good reason.

      in such a case, the eu, the us and pretty much everyone else would support wm, which is why nicola wants a s30.

      nicola is more likely to mount a legal challenge if wm refuses a s30 than hold a ref without one.

    156. wull says:

      Terence callachan says:
      17 September, 2018 at 8:05 pm

      ‘It upsets me to see people calling Scotland cowardly and weak, two thirds of Scottish people voted for Scottish independence in 2014, it was the huge number of English people living in Scotland that make up a third of the NO vote in Scotland that swung it in favour of the NO vote.’

      Well said, Terence. I don’t know anything about statistics but I take your word for it, and I am sure you are dead right with this. In fact, the Scottish people voted ‘Yes’ and, morally speaking, our country has the right to be independent. Unhappily, as often happens, ‘morally’ does not (yet) translate into ‘legally’ …

      ‘English Scots for Yes’ were a great group of people, who ought to be wholeheartedly encouraged. Indyref2 will only begin to be a fair system when they eventually comprise fully half the English-origin voters living in Scotland. There we all have work to do in order to encourage the growth of ‘English Scots for Yes / Independence’until it reaches that figure. Only then will the legality and the morality of the matter begin to match up.

      Terence, I think you are also dead right about the next part of your post, which is well said and well worth repeating:

      ‘That is [also] why they made such a huge thing about tactical voting, they know that … they can rely on the English to switch from Tory to Labour or Lib Dem, whichever is going to be effective in keeping SNP out in local elections and general elections.
      ‘I wish people would wake up to the fact that England is keeping control of Scotland by making sure that there are always enough English people living in Scotland to swing it their way, … [and] … are offered jobs in Scottish government , local authorities , hospitals universities schools and other government influenced areas of life, you just have to work in one of these places to know I am telling the truth.’

    157. Valerie says:

      Thanks Nana! 11.03

      That link is defo worth a read if you want a smile.

      Just good to see karma having a nip.

    158. Robert Peffers says:

      Here’s a link to an interesting explanation of the European Parliament and how it works:-

    159. TJenny says:

      Nana – Thanks for the archived link 🙂

    160. Liz g says:

      Terrance Callaghan @ 8.05 & Wull @ 11.29
      Well there’s no much point in just repeating it.
      If what you say is true and can be demonstrated by evidence other than just personal testimony.
      Ye need to suggest solutions if it’s to be discussed.
      What is it that you two think should be done??
      We are all open to peaceful,democratic suggestions.

    161. yesindyref2 says:

      @Robert Peffers “What on Earth would an independent Scotland want with an aircraft carrier?

      Ah well now Robert, I was hoping someone would ask 🙂

      You see, somewhere in the late 90s I asked NASA if I could use one of their pictures for a cartoon for my demon website, sending an image for their approval. The reply came from and since then I was in contact with them and learnt some interesting things. It turns out that with global warming thousands of years ago, the Martians hollowed out a huge underground cavern, the size of Scotland, and powered by an artificial sun using geothermic energy.

      Now the problem is they detected the Mars landings and are coming to Earth to investigate, and it seems their target is Rockall. Now I think you begin to see the problem for iScotland – there are secret SNP plans afoot here also to flatten Rockhall a bit and blast out a cavern so it’s permanently habitable, so that iScotland can lay claim, not just to the 12nm territorial waters, but the 200 nm EEZ around it, greatly increasing iScotland’s EEZ.

      So now you can see why Scotland needs an amphibious assault ship with Marines to take back Rockall and free the Scottish citizens patiently keeping control of our EEZ, with 4 or 5 F35-Bs on board to provide air cover and blast ourt of existence any Martian space assault vessels that attempt to interfere, supported also of course by 2 of our 4 frigates.

    162. Robert Peffers says:

      @schrodingers cat says: 17 September, 2018 at 11:23 pm:

      ” … i think spains point about accepting an indy scotland is based on the section 30 …

      No, The Spanish PM officially, (i.e. in a press release), and in the statement it said Spain had never made any threat to veto a Scottish request to, (and it emphasised), “re-join”, the EU if Scotland left, “The United Kingdom”.

      The statement explained that Spain saw the Spanish/Catalan and Scotland/United Kingdom situations as totally different matters and a Scotland/United Kingdom split was a very different matter.

      Anyway, the point has since been explained to the Spanish Government that their concept of the, “country”, of Scotland leaving the still existing United Kingdom was a very flawed concept. As the United Kingdom was a partnership of two equally sovereign kingdoms as the name United Kingdom clearly describes it.

      The legality being that Scotland would not be leaving the United Kingdom because when one partner leaves a two partner kingdom there isn’t an extant United Kingdom left behind.

      The legal situation being that the United Kingdom is rather like a marriage of two kingdoms even if it is not being run as if it were. Spain has been a wee bit quiet about it since then but has reiterated that Spain would not veto a Scottish claim and made the point that, after all Scotland had fulfilled all requirements of EU membership by being in the EU since its inception.

    163. Thepnr says:


      Terence callachan is no good at statistics either. He only ever posts about English born voters and despite being pointed to the statistical evidence of the 2011 census showing that the number of English born people living in Scotland is 8.9% he insists that it is in fact 18%.

      He assumes that everyone of them voted No even the children that didn’t have a vote. He refuses to recognise the truth despite being given links to the evidence too many times to mention.

    164. yesindyref2 says:

      Just as seriously of course, such a capable large deck amphib, also capable of carrying helicopters and VSTOL (and SRVL – Shipborne Rolling Vertical Landing) and a Mach 1.6 multi-function jet, would provide a capability of taking back any of Scotland’s many islands that might get “appropriated”, provide our share for NATO, and be there to help any neighbours that had similar unwelcome visitors.

      A maritime nation like Scotland needs a strong self-contained marine force, well equipped and supported. The Scotia is not an aircraft carrier, her primary role would be amhpib support.

    165. manandboy says:

      David versus Goliath was a complete mis-match, just like Scotland versus England in the war for Independence. But David won from an unfancied position because he used what little weaponry he had, a sling-shot, with deadly effect.

      We will defeat ourselves if we think all the time about all the advantages which Westminster possess. Loose talk is bad for morale. We must strive to eradicate it. So let’s strive.

      And when the time comes, let us give Independence our best shot with what we’ve got.

    166. Hamish100 says:

      Collie says:
      17 September, 2018 at 10:30 pm
      Brexit then Indy…



      Whats Brexit?

    167. manandboy says:

      Westminster feeds us lies, makes us sick.
      The EU gives us the truth, we feel better.

      “The British government will have to experience its “darkest hour” and stare into the abyss of a no-deal Brexit before it will cave in to Brussels demands, senior EU diplomats have predicted.

      Ahead of a summit of EU leaders in Salzburg, diplomats in Brussels privately warned that Theresa May still needed to make a significant shift on her red lines for a deal to be possible, with the Irish border issue remaining a major hurdle in the talks.

      The stark prediction came as a French government official said that the president, Emmanuel Macron, wanted to nail down the key terms of the future deal now, rather than allow any ambiguous drift on the major issues after 29 March 2019.

      That was at odds with the UK environment secretary, Michael Gove, who had claimed over the weekend that any deal with the EU on the political declaration could be undone by MPs after Brexit, as he urged his Tory colleagues to support the Chequers proposals “for now”. Brussels wants credible assurances from May that any deal will not be unpicked by her successor.”

    168. Dr Jim says:

      @manandboy 12.19am

      Actually it’s a myth that David in the bible fable was at a disadvantage because at that time the sling was in fact in the hands of an expert an extremely potent and deadly weapon with the stopping power of a 45 calibre pistol at around 25 metres so David could have been slinging away at Goliath to his hearts content preventing the armoured warrior from getting anywhere near him till he eventually stuck a couple of rocks in his napper

      A bit like the English soldiers chasing the lone Scotsman over a hill then running back down again on seeing he had a mate screaming *It’s a trick It’s a trick there’s two of them*

      Apparently our ancestors were pretty fierce at fighting the Scottish way while the English were busy forming lines trying to chase them through knee deep heather

      I think the lesson might be we don’t need to act tough we just smile take our time and then surprise them by being absolute Bastirts bow low and nut them on the way up

      Makes you feel satisfyingly warm doesn’t it

    169. K1 says:

      Good resource, in case anyone hasn’t seen this site, handy to bookmark and lots of info. about Scotland:

      ‘To help achieve new successes for Scotland, the Scottish Government, VisitScotland, Scottish Development International (the international arm of Scottish Enterprise) and Universities Scotland have come together to create a new campaign and identity for Scotland, Scotland Is Now.

      The new Scotland is Now campaign will tell the authentic story of Scotland as a bold and positive country, rich in history and heritage but forging forward in a way that is progressive, pioneering and inclusive. We’re waking the world up to the fact that Scotland is a country that is challenging new thinking, inviting new investment, creating new opportunities, supporting new industry and driving technology that embraces humanity around the globe. Please join us and get involved.’

      Literally packed with information. Covering businesses, history, news and features section et al. In fact covers every area of living and working in Scotland, it’s a keeper:

    170. Dr Jim says:

      I watched the Sky press preview tonight with a Tory *journalist* (paraphrasing) basically saying all remainers are stupid and the leavers knew exactly what they were voting for because they knew Britain would be financially worse off and they didn’t care because it was better than being bullied into remaining in the undemocratic EU telling them what to do and they wanted the immigrants out of the country

      If that’s really as true as this *journalist* says it is then he’s admitting openly that the people of England who comprise the greatest numbers couldn’t give a rats ass about the rest of the constituent parts of the UK or the people in them and now have a *We rule and the rest of you can do one* attitude and that’s as dangerous and careless an opinion of your neighbours to have since the 1930s

      The media have a name they enjoy using a lot for far right movements these days and it’s *Populist* which really is a soft way of saying Nazi and I do feel that England has now become a *Populist* country and for that reason alone, bad Brexit or bloody marvellous Brexit Scotland needs to remove itself with all possible alacrity

      Oh and when Scotland becomes Independent it would be nice if we issued either an arrest warrant or at the very least place a ban on Nigel Farage ever setting foot in our country because I bet somebody in the EU is already thinking about something similar for that gentleman for their countries

      Wouldn’t that be just lovely

    171. Cactus says:

      Ah was thinkin’ there again hehe… see when JUST the date is announced for our iHOMEcoming referendum… the People of Scotland will Ascend into euphoric celebration at that point, it’ll feel like Yes has WON already! SO much SO is the collectively contained energies of independence.

      Everybody but us to them… therefore, Only You, Scotland X:

      The chosen date for our independence day will be:

      XX / XX / XX.

    172. Cactus says:

      SO much SO are the collectively contained energies of independence, that’s a better.

      18 days NOW remaining to go all AUOB participants.

      Twa weeks on Saturday, Edinburgh like.

    173. CameronB Brodie says:

      British nationalism articulates the colonial chauvinism of English Tories. Simples. Fuck Westminster’s rules, what about the principles of democratic pluralism and universal human rights?

      Or are Scots content to merely exist under increasingly apparent English despotism?

      The Politics of Inclusive Agreements: towards a Critical Discourse Theory of Democracy


      This article offers a critical assessment of Jürgen Habermas’s discourse theory of democracy. It suggests that the main thrust of a discursive account of legitimacy is the attempt to show how the demands of maximal democratic inclusion might be reconciled with a politics of reasoned agreements. While this aim is endorsed, the thrust of the argument is that a critical theory of democracy requires that normative frameworks that bring certain substantive features of democratic life into focus should supplement Habermas’s procedural approach.

      First, the account of maximal inclusion has to be developed in a way that clarifies the egalitarian demands of distributive justice. Secondly, the account of a politics of reasoned agreements has to be connected to a theoretical analysis of the bonds of solidarity that could underpin such a form of political engagement. These developments contribute to a critical theory that gives a more adequate
      account of the motivational basis of discursive democracy.

    174. yesindyref2 says:

      An update from the Kits for YES groups fundraiser, our own Lindsay Bruce, might be enough for 1 million leaflets, but maybe not.

      I’m guessing there’s other ways to get more money since the funder itself is closed.

    175. Petra says:

      BBC News: People being questioned on the streets of England about the terms, soft Brexit deal, hard Brexit deal, no deal and Chequers deal and they don’t have a bl**dy clue. Not a clue. No deal for example means that we’re going to stay in the EU. Just beggars belief that it’s people like these ignorant blaggards that are dragging us, Scotland, out of the EU.

      And some “expert” reported that “they really can’t get away with how the EU 27 club is sticking together”. Eh!

      BBC Scotland reporting on the united (or word to that effect) challenge to John Swinney re. the “P1 tests”. No mention of the fact that Ruth Davidson et al supported this, demanded this, in their manifesto. The BBC still covering up for Dark money Davidson.


      @ K1 at “About Scotland.”

      Good link K1.

    176. Breeks says:

      Another surreal morning on TV.

      The UK is perplexed and divided between those who back Theresa May’s Chequers “deal” and those who don’t, studiously ignoring the elephant great herd of woolly mammoths in the room that the Chequers Deal isn’t a deal at all but let’s be kind and call it a proposal, but a proposal which is already dead in the water, in a flat calm sea as far as Europe is concerned, with multiple torpedos already inbound.

      The review of “politics” is increasingly like the walking dead, as decaying zombies stumble around oblivious to their own decrepitude, with no ideas or initiative amongst any one of them beyond running headlong into the gunfire.

      Here in Scotland, our demands that we’re not ignored are ignored.

      Ireland, please adopt me. I work hard and don’t eat much.

    177. Collie says:

      Hamish 100 12:39am

      It has to be Brexit before Indy. Unless Nicola is thinking of holding IndyRef2 before 29th March next.

      So we will be out of the EU for a while. And even after our victory in IndyRef2 we won’t know if we will be in the EU or EFTA.

      At this moment in time not one single person knows what is going to happen.

    178. Nana says:


      Not only does new ICM Poll confirm that 2/3 rds of Scots want migration devolved (and that 55% across UK support that too) but it also shows that only one in ten Scots (10%) think UK Govenrment handles immigration “competently and fairly”

    179. Nana says:

      Use translator
      The ECB calls on European commercial banks to transfer capital from their London branches to the continent for safety’s sake. Alone at Deutsche Bank is about hundreds of billions of euros.

      Will not archive

      Rape victim Bex Bailey accuses Labour of kicking sexual harassment issue ‘into the long grass’

    180. Maria F says:

      Thepnr says:

      “The second bill will end the supervision of Scottish elections by the Electoral Commission and put that directly under the supervision of the Scottish Parliament”

      Ahh! now, that is very interesting. This is something I was not aware of at all and that I certainly applaud. The Electoral Commission, in my view did not have the finger in the pulse during the last Indyref at all (consciously or unconsciously, the jury is out there). For instance, the apparent collusion between Ruth Davidson, Better Together and Vote no Borders showing the message that to remain in the EU we had to vote to remain in the UK was never investigated or even highlighted.
      The thing of the postal votes and Ruth announcing on live TV the results while the counting had not even finished yet was unacceptable has been kicked in the looong grass if not abandoned at all.
      And then of course the fact that indyref being a matter just for Scotland, donors from all over the UK were allowed to give money to the BTogether and pro-union campaigns while in UK GE and referendums the donations are only strictly from individuals present in the Uk census was a bit more than just an oversight.

      And lets not forget those pro-union groups formed in London with the celebrities.. I do not recall any instance where celebrities or individuals from a different country formed campaign groups to take part in UK GEs or UK referendums. So why should Scotland be any different?

    181. Nana says:

      Use translator
      The ECB calls on European commercial banks to transfer capital from their London branches to the continent for safety’s sake. Alone at Deutsche Bank is about hundreds of billions of euros.

      Will not archive

      Bex Bailey accuses Labour of kicking sexual harassment issue ‘into the long grass’

    182. ed says:

      Not too small, Not to poor, but Dear god! “too stupid”

    183. Nana says:

      This is my MP. She is an avid Brexiter. She is making huge nation-changing, risk-laden decisions on our behalf. She hasn’t bothered to understand even the most basic details. She isn’t the only one. Their incompetence. Our lives.

      Sorry folks, I didn’t realise there were so many links today 🙂

    184. Richard says:

      Weegie42 and Brian Powell despair of their fellow Scots. And quite rightly, too! The cadre of Scots that are so ingrained with Unionism and the belief that their Tory party can do no wrong are quite happy to sit back and watch their own country suffer and the hands of Westminster and the oncoming penury of Brexit. Imagine the electorate of any other country in the world letting that happen?

      I wonder what it is that really ties that percentage to the apron of Unionism, the blind belief in a corrupt association captained by an equally corrupt party who are sailing us off the edge of increasingly turbulent waters into a maelstrom from which there is no known exit. These people will never change. Hell mend them.

    185. Robert Peffers says:

      @yesindyref2 says: 18 September, 2018 at 12:18 am:

      ” … Just as seriously of course, such a capable large deck amphib,”

      What particular mindbender are you on just now, yesindyref2?

      Scotland’s islands are all well within the range of land based aircraft of all types from existing airstrips in any area of the Scottish mainland.

      The mindset that has the Westminster Establishment putting itself into unmanageable national debt to maintain a totally disproportionate attack nuclear deterrent is exactly the same mindset what you are proposing an independent Scotland should adopt by paying for a totally disproportionate vessel that has absolutely no genuine use.

    186. Petra says:

      Thanks for the links Nana.

      One of the first up a 268 page document, Nana! Dusting and ironing left for another day. Reports and walking the dog delayed.

      Looks as though they’ve done their homework, however I see (skim read) that they carried out their investigations in 50 or so English locations and five in Scotland including Paisley and Lerwick, but not Glasgow. Strange one.


      Thank goodness the individuals who running sites like Indyref2 and Talking up Scotland are monitoring the propaganda garbage being broadcast by the BBC. What a corrupt, manipulative bunch of charlatans. Never a negative word said about Ruth Davidson or her manic (sitting on tanks, buffaloes etc) behaviour…. supports remaining in the EU / wants out, demands P1 tests / is totally against them, disappears / reappears, not available/ now accessible etc, etc. I’m now wondering, with her latest mental health revelations, if there’s more to her U-turns / strange behaviour than meets the eye? Is she actually fit to be holding such a post? And as she makes hay with her own mental health revelations she doesn’t seem to have any empathy at all for others suffering / coping with MH issues. Her own Party is actually stripping benefits from individuals with similar conditions, such as bi-polar. Maybe the BBC could think of questioning her about that along with the United Nations findings in relation to how the Tory Party, HER party, is treating vulnerable people in the UK. Then there’s the suicide statistics etc, etc. Loads for them to get their teeth into.

    187. Tinto Chiel says:

      Thanks, Nana. Anyone who still believes the BBC is not biased against the Scottish Government and the independence movement generally should read the link you posted earlier, a beezer of an article:

      Loved too the anti-Jackie Baillie rant by someone called grumpyscottishman. Thought I was the only one 😛 .

    188. Footsoldier says:

      I do visit Wings every day and sometimes several times a day and have done so from the outset.

      The Rev provides a valuable website with information that is simply not available elsewhere and is a valuable tool in the cause for independence.

      I no longer find the long winded comments from many of the contributors very interesting and may be counter productive and they certainly do nothing to entice visiting soft No voters. A dose of a maximum number of characters like HYS or Twitter would do much to make things more concise. It’s clear Wings has become a way of life for many who clearly spend hours every day on “their” forum.

      That surely is not what Wings is for.

    189. Abulhaq says:

      We ignore the psychology to our cost. Ingrained habits and thought patterns are hard to kick. British Scotland is a real mental construct. Its myths are founded on substance. The Scots, as individuals, were conquerors and imperialists in the British imperium. However, Scotland, the country and culture and most of its citizens were marginal and disposable. Scotland got crumbs, England got the cake and icing. We were useful tools in imperial games, just like every other conquered nation. India is Scotland on a larger scale; divided, ruled, flattered, militarised, anglicised.
      The anglicisation aspect is the most potent and the most troublesome to extirpate being inbuilt in the ‘progressive’ education system. Through the English language you begin to think ‘English’. Gotcha!
      Contemporary Scottish nationalist politics is not much given to the ‘cerebral’; all very bread and butter and legalistic, uncultural and rather dull, very British. Nevertheless, it is relatively early days in the process of national renewal.

    190. vlad (not that one) says:

      @Robert Peffers 9:02

      I believe indieref2’s proposals were designed to deter invasions by Martians, say on a place like Rockall.

    191. Nana says:

      Morning Tinto

      The Alan Knight is as you say a ‘beezer’ and believe me you are not the only grumpy Scottishman or woman for that matter.

      It is 4yrs since Scotland voted No and this morning I’m seeing a lot of sad comments on social media. I think we should leave the past behind, concentrate on the present and look forward to our independent future. We will do it if we pull together.

      A few more links and then I promise I will leave you all in peace 🙂

      Just published our latest report on the progress of #Brexit negotiations. Read it here

    192. Collie says:

      Footsoldier 9.20am

      I agree, Wings has become a vehicle for individuals to express their feelings in a far too long-winded way.

      But how do you limit the amount of characters anyone can write?

      IMO Wings changed after the defeat in IndyRef1. A lot of regular punters stopped posting and in came many who used to use the Scotsman and Herald forums.

      And to this day Wings has never been the same.

      It used to have short sharp informative and humorous posts. Now we have a more serious and less humorous kind of poster.

      Hopefully when Nicola announces the date for IndyRef2 many of those regular posters will return.

    193. Petra says:

      Ofgem, Ofcom, IPSO, Electoral Commission etc, etc … and the so-called think tanks all being nobbled. What a country. What a dictatorship.


      Vince Cable on BBC this morning reiterating that “the world has moved on and that if a situation changes people have the right to change their minds: hold another referendum.” Everyone that is except for the Scots, it would seem. Tories, Labour and Lib-dems a bunch of blatant hypocrites. The BBC the state controlled mouthpiece.


      It’s not surprising that people on the streets of England don’t have a clue…. think that a “No deal Brexit” means that we’re going to remain in the EU. When this is all over there’s a long list of people who should be arrested and tried for whatever they can throw at them. Not half as bad, no doubt, as what happened to Boris Johnstone’s great grandfather (and great Uncle), Muslim Ali Kamal, who was lynched when he advocated British Protectorate status for Turkey instead of backing the Turkish War of Independence. Then again is he, Boris, not one of the people at Westminster who supports the return of the death penalty? Just saying.

    194. Shinty says:

      Collie says:
      18 September, 2018 at 9:48 am
      Footsoldier 9.20am

      I agree, Wings has become a vehicle for individuals to express their feelings in a far too long-winded way.

      Wings is every bit as informative as it was in the beginning.
      Yes, we have posters who like to disrupt.
      We all have a scroll on by button.

    195. mike cassidy says:

      If you thought the contributors on here were cynical.

      Brexit as a cult.

      Let the no-dealers have their way!

    196. bittie45 says:



      A word to describe the BBC et al.


      (interestingly it was a very small eean who reported our Professor to his boss)

    197. manandboy says:

      Dr Jim says:at 12:59 am:-

      “Actually it’s a myth that David in the bible fable was at a disadvantage because at that time the sling was in fact in the hands of an expert an extremely potent and deadly weapon with the stopping power of a 45 calibre pistol at around 25 metres so David could have been slinging away at Goliath to his hearts content preventing the armoured warrior from getting anywhere near him till he eventually stuck a couple of rocks in his napper”

      In complete contrast to the above, this is the original story:- (Bible:Revised Standard Version Chapter 17, verses 41-49).
      If you like a good story, the whole of Ch. 17 is well worth a read. After all, who hasn’t heard of what is possibly the most famous underdog story in history, ‘David & Goliath’?

      “And the Philistine (Goliath) came on and drew near to David, with his shield-bearer in front of him. And when the Philistine looked, and saw David, he disdained him; for he was but a youth, ruddy and comely in appearance. And the Philistine said to David, “Am I a dog, that you come to me with sticks?” And the Philistine cursed David by his gods. The Philistine said to David, “Come to me, and I will give your flesh to the birds of the air and to the beasts of the field.” Then David said to the Philistine, “You come to me with a sword and with a spear and with a javelin; but I come to you in the name of the Lord of hosts, the God of the armies of Israel, whom you have defied. This day the Lord will deliver you into my hand, and I will strike you down, and cut off your head; and I will give the dead bodies of the host of the Philistines this day to the birds of the air and to the wild beasts of the earth; that all the earth may know that there is a God in Israel, and that all this assembly may know that the Lord saves not with sword and spear; for the battle is the Lord’s and he will give you into our hand.”

      When the Philistine arose and came and drew near to meet David, David ran quickly toward the battle line to meet the Philistine. And David put his hand in his bag and took out a stone, and slung it, and struck the Philistine on his forehead; the stone sank into his forehead, and he fell on his face to the ground.”

    198. Chick McGregor says:

      If Scotland inherits an aircraft carrier we could turn it into a Scottish themed amusement park on permanent World tour to promote Scotland.

      Forget the planes – call it ‘Disnae Land’ just to annoy an American corporate.

    199. Chick McGregor says:

      If Scotland inherits an aircraft carrier we could turn it into a Scottish themed amusement park on permanent World tour to promote Scotland.

      Forget the planes – call it ‘Disnae Land’ just to annoy an American corporate.

    200. ScottishPsyche says:


      At the Lib Dem conference, Willie Rennie being interviewed ‘…we (Lib Dems) are punching above our weight…the go-to people on the Police because we know most about it…’

      What has he had in his coffee this morning? Deluded or what? Also, Christine Jardine spouting the usual nonsense with the air of the ex BBC Tory aide that she was. Reminds me of a Quentin Blake villain when I see her on TV.

    201. Shinty says:

      Wee clype Ian Small, why am I not surprised.

    202. Roughian says:

      Vince Cable interview on BBC this morning. BBC interviewer said LibDem the largest anti Brexit party. 9 MPs against SNP 54. BBC just don’t consider SNP in their thoughts.

    203. Iain mhor says:

      @Footsoldier 9:20am
      So what is Wings for?

      Twitter already exists, as for HYS, jeezus wept, just no.
      Lovely platforms, it will be a delight reading ontological debate here parsed to “Aye ye did!” “Naw ah didny” “Yer maw!” for clarity and brevity.
      @Ken500 is as lean as I can handle without my brain melting filling in grammar and extricating the point (nae offence Ken)
      Comments are a hard enough platform to try and convey a message or idea without it being misinterpreted to howls of abuse as it is. (@Ken500 – I read them honest! It was a sideways compliment)
      Wings is what it is for good or ill. I just scroll.

    204. Naina Tap says:

      Manandboy “for sic a thing as a chucky stand had never entered his heir afore”

    205. Naina Tal says:

      Chuck stane of course

    206. manandboy says:

      Conor Gearty,


      “Nothing would be settled because none of the core problems that have given rise to this Brexit madness would have been addressed. What are these?
      First the sense of entitlement that pervades English culture, a sense of exceptionalism that makes even other faded post-colonial powers seem modest.
      Second, the ongoing absence of any kind of loyalty whatsoever to the EU, a relationship perpetually presented in transactional terms but with the bargains that come our way being always hidden while the costs get shouted from the rooftops.
      Third, the constitutional illiteracy of a society that boasts of having no constitution, where power is exercised informally in accordance with unwritten conventions and in which no serious reflection on the rule of law and respect for human rights has ever occurred: when I wrote about this a while back from the human rights point of view I inevitably ended up calling the book On Fantasy Island. Brexit reversal or EU servitude would both exacerbate, not inoculate us against, these diseases of the collective mind.”

    207. Nana says:

      Okay, okay I said I was going

      Wee Wullie on sky news, he’s meant to be a democrat right?

      really going now 🙂

    208. Chick McGregor says:

      Err… or two, if it takes off.

    209. manandboy says:

      Humour on Wings has diminished in the past few years apparently. Some, lacking humour, are not happy about it.
      Perhaps we need a quasi-official list of things we Independence supporters have to smile about these days.
      Naw, Ah didnae think so.

      Ps. On the AUOB Marches, I have seen and heard no lessening of our world famous Scottish humour, indeed quite the opposite. Adversity seems to activate Scottish humour more than almost anything else. Almost. Although I’ve no heard much laughin’ fae the Bar L, drivin’ past lately.

      On the other hand, there’s nuthin’funny about Westminster’s treatment of Scots these past few years and far, far beyond. Austerity, benefit sanctions, and foodbanks. Nor about English plunder and pillaging, suppression and exploitation, propaganda 24/7, lies comin’oot our ears, wi’ smears conjured up by English contempt, as if they were in fact our superiors and licensed owners to do with as they would a dog or a beast in the field. Laugh? I nearly gret.

      The time for laughing is comin’ though, big time. And while we’re laughin’, the Tory Labour BritNats will be girnin’ ‘n greetin’ o’er bitter defeat. Aye.

    210. Gary45% says:

      Thanks for the link, no surprise really but then again I still haven’t found “the point of a Wullie Rennie “.
      Lib “DUM” right enough.

    211. stu mac says:

      @Roughian says:
      18 September, 2018 at 10:56 am
      Vince Cable interview on BBC this morning. BBC interviewer said LibDem the largest anti Brexit party. 9 MPs against SNP 54. BBC just don’t consider SNP in their thoughts.

      You’re out of date, that was the previous election. There are now 35 SNP MPs. Labour have 7 but there’s no saying which way they will jump. Lib Dems actually have 12 MPs – if you count the Scottish Lib Dems in.

    212. Macart says:


      Been out of it for a few days and coming back to Wullie Rennie in that link? What a small man he is. Proving once again, (as if it needed proving), that neither he or his party are either liberal or democratic.

      What they are though, is included. Something they would deny others and that from Wull’s own mouth.

      Well done him.

    213. Daisy Walker says:

      @ Chick McGregor says:
      18 September, 2018 at 10:51 am
      ‘If Scotland inherits an aircraft carrier we could turn it into a Scottish themed amusement park on permanent World tour to promote Scotland.

      Forget the planes – call it ‘Disnae Land’ just to annoy an American corporate.’

      That’s a bit too elaborate, what about ‘plane huznae’?

      or ‘The Forth Craw’

      O/T can anyone point me to information about the families who made it big from the East India Company and where they might have stashed their ill gotten gains?

      I’m wondering if the EU Tax Avoidance Legislation will potentially tax a mountain of historic ill gotten gains and what family connections are currently sitting in the HoC and HoLs.

      Many thanks.

    214. It is on record that 80 per cent of Incomers voted no in the 2014 ref., only those who are born and live in Scotland should be allowed to decide the future of Scotland no one else no fair minded person would object to that surely ??? And no postal votes they were taken to England to be counted why ??? And Ruth Davidson telling us the results of them on air before they were even counted please do not allow these things to happen again and distort the Scottish people’s vote for FREEDOM

    215. Gary45% says:

      Liberal Democratic in name.
      Clueless Chancers in reality.

    216. Roughian says:

      Stu Mac.
      OK I got the numbers wrong but my point was in the eyes of the BBC the SNP do not exist. 35 is three times bigger than 12. So the SNP are the biggest anti Brexit party.

    217. Iain mhor says:

      @bittie45 10:28am

      Ta! Seeing the word ‘Nomedia’ reminded me of the condition of ‘Anomie’ posited by the sociologist Émile Durkheim*, which in turn may help explain the cynicism and despair, as opposed to humour and hope (pre-you-know-when) that is apparently infesting the site.
      Treading in your domain here @CameronB Brodie 😉

      “Periods of anomie are unstable, chaotic, and often rife with conflict because the social force of the norms and values that otherwise provide stability is weakened or missing”

      “Anomie occurs during and follows periods of drastic and rapid changes to the social, economic, or political structures of society…. Because of this, anomie can foster the feeling that one lacks purpose, engender hopelessness, and encourage deviance and crime”

      Don’t get all deviant on me Wingers (well for a given value of deviant at least!)
      “Deviant Stone-Sucking CyberNat”
      Ooh you are awful, but I like it!


    218. Dr Jim says:

      Irrelevant man says completely anti democratic thing but says it on national television and gets away with it:

      Willie Rennie says on national television to Adam Boulton that if he was in charge the SNP wouldn’t be allowed in debates, stupid man you might say but Sky news Boulton didn’t even blink

      I certainly hope the FM has seen that clip and good luck with that attitude on thursday at FMQs Mr Rennie

    219. Daisy Walker says:

      Where could I find details of a Job Loss Tracker re Brexit, and is there anyone out there who could do a ‘Doomsday’ type clock with details of same.

      Be a great, info/graphic powerful way to spread the message.

      Brexshit and Bad.

      Yes We Can and Now We Must.

      Also we need a pithy rejoiner re the ‘Scotland Trades 4 times as much with rUK, as with the EU’.

      Indy Ref 1 when they said they subsidised Scotland we could laugh and say ‘you don’t even subsidise a spare bedroom, no way you’d subsidise a country.’ That was enough.

      We need something similar.

      Also, does anyone remember/still have the graphs charting the rise and fall of the pound, which matched exactly, the rise and fall value of oil?


      And another thing. I don’t think us Scots much care for choices, it just gives us a chance to argue amongst ourselves. But tell us our backs are to the wall, we need to tighten our belts, and there’s no choice but to fight, and win. Well now, that’s mair like it. And we do thrawn.

    220. Liz g says:

      Shinty @ 10.18
      Of course it is and just as addictive as all the early posters warned it was.
      Original Posters, who made Wings what it is, …. V ….. current posters who have kept the debate going….. Now that is Funny…..
      Not even original, certainly juvenile,A bit like asking who is Queens (not that one, the one who earned her title) biggest fan!!!

      Short comments…. Well that’s what Twitter is for, and even then, Twitter itself recognised that “ some points need a greater space in which to be made” hence :Tweet More: was born.

      That comments have become more familiar is well ….. fair comment…. but that’s because a fair few of Wingers have now met and know each other. So we are indeed talking to friends.

      As for Wings becoming a way of life, and mindful that we are no being paid by the state!
      .. Well if doing what you can, when you can, where you can for Indy is no a way of life…. then yer no doing it right…

    221. K1 says:

      Thanks for links, as ever, Nana.

      Get voting on oor bridge folks. only one person one vote on this one as they want an email addy to put you into a Fitbit draw (obvs can use more than one email addy). You can always unsubscribe if they send stuff you aren’t interested in.

      Let’s get our bridge elected 😉

      (new thread up btw)

    222. Petra says:

      @ Roughian says at 10:56 am – ”Petra, Vince Cable interview on BBC this morning. BBC interviewer said LibDem the largest anti Brexit party. 9 MPs against SNP 54. BBC just don’t consider SNP in their thoughts.

      Yeah we’re invisible to the naked eye, Roughian. I’m thinking of sending the BBC a Scanning Tunneling Microscope in the hope that they will find us. Dig us up.

      And the overall situation would just make you laugh when you think of the work that Nicola Sturgeon et all have put into keeping us all in the EU, whilst the rest of them have done LESS than nought. I mean to say where’s the Libdem’s Brexit White Paper? Oh, that’s right they don’t have one. In fact they, Cable and Farron, couldn’t even turn up for the crucial, knife-edge Brexit White Paper vote in July. As someone said, so aptly, about Cable previously on here, he’s ”Forgotten but not gone.”


      A snippet from Andrew Nicol of the S*N newspaper.

      Sorry I can’t access the whole article but he says this:

      …. ”Wilbur Ross, US Commerce Secretary stated that abolishing EU Food Standards was essential for any UK-USA free trade deal, however no one seems to have recognised that the USA would have to fill a huge gap in foodstuffs if it were to replace the food the UK currently imports from the EU.”

      So how big would the problem be for America to start to sending sufficient supplies of chlorinate chicken and hormone-injected beef?

      According to the Profs (report by 3 professors and Tony Lewis, the Head of Policy at the Chartered Institute of Environmental Health), quite a large problem. In fact they say ”it’s a dangerous fantasy.”

      ”The USA is currently tenth on our list of food importers. For the USA to replace the combined food imports from the other nine of the Top Ten on the list would require a vast food flotilla and logistics operation, exceeding that of the 1940-45 Atlantic Convoys.”

      But it’s alright folks. Don’t worry. Notorious back-stabber and out and out liar Mikey Gove, Westminster’s so-called expert …. Secretary of State for Environment, Food and Rural Affairs ….. tells us that, ”Britain has had enough of experts. We don’t trust them.”

      Well I don’t know about that! Calling on our own Wings experts now. Where’s yesindyref2 or Robert Peffers? Help us out on this one. Do we have enough boats?

    223. Liz g says:

      Blair Patterson@ 11.19
      We’ve done that wan tae death Blair…..
      If ye pay Tax in Scotland ye get a vote!
      It’s known as Nae Taxation without Representation.
      Or would ye have the so called incomers send their tax money to their Country of birth, rather than persuade them to pick the best government they can?
      Because if ye do, I hiv tae tell ye that it’s already been democratically decided who gets a vote here in Scotland.
      Mibbi you’re in the wrang Country, hiv ye considered moving?

    224. PictAtRandom says:

      From today’s Guardian:

      “More than three-quarters of people (77%) polled by YouGov felt that London contributed a lot or a fair amount to the UK as a whole but 68% felt their local area had not been a beneficiary of the capital’s success.

      A similar proportion (78%) of Scots said London contributed not very much or nothing to their local economy – with 74% of Welsh people and 75% of people from northern England saying the same.”

      So maybe all this GERS trick-accountancy stuff only works up to a point. Ungrateful wretches, eh?

    225. schrodingers cat says:

      @Chick McGregor

      gunboat dipperplomacy


    226. Breeks says:

      Petra says:
      18 September, 2018 at 12:55 pm
      @ Roughian says at 10:56 am – ”Petra, Vince Cable interview on BBC this morning. BBC interviewer said LibDem the largest anti Brexit party. 9 MPs against SNP 54. BBC just don’t consider SNP in their thoughts….

      Define anti-Brexit. As I understand it the SNP position is accepting a wholly unconstitutional soft Brexit provided it maintains access to the Single Market. That’s not anti-Brexit.

      An anti-Brexit position would be the defence of Scotland’s Constitutionally Sovereign Remain majority, and fighting to prevent our removal from the EU. THAT is the definitive “anti-Brexit” position.

    227. yesindyref2 says:

      @Robert Peffers “for a totally disproportionate vessel that has absolutely no genuine use

      You really don’t read postings you reply to, do you? You just spray meaningless and incorrect GOB garbage over the screen. You’re going to need a wet wipe. Here, let me make it simple for you:

      1). I’m not talking about the QE carrier capable of taking 70 aircraft for Scotland, it’s an AMPHIBIOUS ASSAULT SHIP capable of taking 4 to 6 fixed wing, 4 to 6 rotary wing

      2). It’s not an “aircraft carrier” which the QE is, it’s an AMPHIBIOUS ASSAULT SHIP

      3). It’s not an aircraft carrier costing £3.1 billion, the Dokdo AMPHIBIOUS ASSAULT SHIP cost £220 million at 2009 prices, I’ve allowed £400 million at 2021 prices, with hardened deck

      4). It’s not an aircraft carrier with a length of 284 metres, it’s an
      AMPHIBIOUS ASSAULT SHIP with a length of around 200 metres (for comparison, the T26 will be 150 metres)

      5). It’s not an aircraft carrier with a tonnage of 65,000 tonnes, it’s an AMPHIBIOUS ASSAULT SHIP with a tonnage of around 15,000 tonnes to 20,000 tonnes – less than one-third the weight. Compared to the T26 at 7,000 tonnes, but an auxiliary at between 12,000 and 20,000 tonnes

      6). It’s not an aircraft carrier with a complement of 679, it’s an AMPHIBIOUS ASSAULT SHIP with a crew of around 300 or less (modern trends are to smaller crews

      7). An AMPHIBIOUS ASSAULT SHIP supports amphibious operations, often can carry hellicopters (rotary wing not fixed wing), and doesn’t need fixed wing jets for its purpose, it’s an optional extra made possible by the F35-B

      8). Neither you nor I are experts, but those who are reckon there’ll be around 80 large deck amphibious ships (LDA), popular with small maritime nations who can’t afford an aircraft carrier, but CAN afford an LDA, by 2030.

      Keep up at the back there.

      What particular mindbender are you on just now, yesindyref2?

      Ad hominems are the last resort of the incompetent.

    228. Fred says:

      Some say Wings lacks humour! how about Robin McAlpine running the Yes Movement for a start!

    229. yesindyref2 says:

      @vlad (not that one) “I believe indieref2’s proposals were designed to deter invasions by Martians, say on a place like Rockall.

      Absolutely, I’ve already almost finished the sequel where (caution – spoiler) the Martians are so impressed by Scotland’s ability they apply to be citizens of Scotland and give us their cavern-making technology, along with a whole load of other interesting stuff – including wormhole tech. There are of course a couple of joint adventures in that sequel, but wait till you see the third part of the trilogy!

    230. Maria F says:

      Footsoldier says:
      18 September, 2018 at 9:20 am

      “That surely is not what Wings is for”

      With respect, what Wings is for or is not is a matter to be decided by Mr Stuart Campbell, the person who actually owns the site, started the site from scratch and maintains it. You, the same as I are guests. So frankly, you can give your ideas as a suggestion and that is fair enough but pretending that it is your role now to actually decide what the site is for or what is not for is overstepping the mark.

    231. Tinto Chiel says:

      Well, I think Wee Willie Rennie and Adam Boulton make a lovely couple. Look at Kelty Man’s bashful smile at Adam’s hilarious line.

      They could become the Gilbert and George of politics.

      Personally, I’d install them on Rockall an put a ten-mile exclusion zone around it.

    232. jfngw says:

      Just seen the P1 test on TV that were too difficult for Alex Cole-Hamilton. Just to help him out, if it looks like a duck, swims like a duck…

      My own outlook is, if it looks like a dud, talks like a dud…

      These assessments have been taking place for years, they will still need to happen no matter what the vote is at Holyrood. All it will achieve is that there will be no coherent method across Scotland and we will not be able to measure the performance of the teaching profession. I can see why Labour want this, the other parties are just playing political games with children’s futures.

    233. yesindyref2 says:

      @Liz g @1:04 pm and 12.42 pm

      Well said, you have a way with words 🙂

    234. Maria F says:


      “I no longer find the long winded comments from many of the contributors very interesting”
      And? Do you expect us to bend to your wishes?

      “may be counter productive”
      counterproductive for what? For demoralisation techniques used by pro-union trolls? I totally agree. Long intelligent and well written comments like the ones here make the rubbish peddled by pro-union trolls that attempt to trash the site actually stand up even more because their comments cannot go beyond a couple of lines before falling flat on their bellies.

      Well indeed. I personally think that one of the reasons why this site is not as trashed as many others are is because it stands to the obvious that the people here knows what they are talking about and that shows. Sites like this are far more difficult to trash bu Mundell’s brigade of trolls because the pro-union trolls have to stand up to the high mark that the site already has, and frankly, let’s face it, what reasons of weight do actually the pro-union trolls have to counteract the solid arguments presented here?

      So far I have not seen a single credible one.

      And here is in my view the reason why the pro-union cabal has resourced to have the “national” broadcaster attempting to bring down the site, because the minions could not do that by themselves so they had to bring out the big guns.

      “and they certainly do nothing to entice visiting soft No voters”
      No voters are not going to join Wings on their own accord unless they are enticed to do so by listening a thought provoking comment by a yes voter. And that is precisely what this site is for, to inform yes voters who can get a wealth of information here to then educate/open the eyes of others.

      “A dose of a maximum number of characters like HYS or Twitter would do much to make things more concise”
      Concise and short is not always the way: you just have to have a look at the UK taxation system: short and concise? I don’t think so. Yet, the pro-union cabal in Westminster would rather depart of a limb than of the taxation system. Another mystery is of course the “UK constitution” that is so long that nobody in Westminster can actually be bothered in writing it down.

      “It’s clear Wings has become a way of life for many who clearly spend hours every day on “their” forum”
      And who are you to judge?

      I am sure you are as well aware as I am that “Demoralization”, which seems to me what you are attempting to do here, is a form of psychological warfare. So off you go and try it in your preferred “short and sweet” comments sites like twitter or the BBC.

    235. stu mac says:

      @Roughian says:
      18 September, 2018 at 12:27 pm
      Stu Mac.
      OK I got the numbers wrong but my point was in the eyes of the BBC the SNP do not exist. 35 is three times bigger than 12. So the SNP are the biggest anti Brexit party.

      We can all count so I wasn’t arguing about that. We’re on a site which attacks inaccuracy (to say the least) in the MSM so we have to make sure our own facts are correct.

      Where did you get the 9 figure for LDs from? If it was what was stated in the program then it’s not just the SNP they ignore – it’s every Scottish party.

    236. jfngw says:

      Those who are confused by the BBC and why they always exclude the SNP. It’s simple, the BBC like to kid on we have a proportional system when it suites them, hence they can then relegate the SNP to a minority party no matter how many seats they have at Westminster. The only time you will see the SNP promoted to the headlines is if there is bad news.

      I suspect a substantial number of people outside Scotland believe the Tories are the largest party in Scotland and Ruth Davidson won the last GE in Scotland, they may even believe Ruth Davidson is actually first minister. If I lived there and relied on the BBC output I possibly would believe this, it’s not actually fake news but it may as well be.

    237. Iain mhor says:

      @Blair Paterson 12:15pm

      You forgot ‘anyone who voted No’ & ‘anyone with spots’

      Go have a look at the actual polls and results yourself though. Do some sums. Ask yourself if you want to lose Yes postal voters, where will you make up that loss? ‘No’s’ postal votes were about 8% more than ‘Yes’ and postal voting was around 22% of the overall vote.
      The grinning on TV was because postal votes are a good predictor in microcosm, which was – lets see… Oh yeah a 10% swing to No in the end (about 360,000 votes)
      The postal votes didn’t swing it themselves, they were a weathercock. Within those postal votes were 10% undecideds as well remember. They weren’t all ‘incomers’ or ‘doddery auld fools and white settlers, clutching purses and mumbling “Ooh that Alic Salmon, coming over here, stealing our pension” –There were offshore and shift workers, Nurses, Doctors, students in residencies, rural communities, the disabled and many more.

      Also ask yourself where the No vote core comes from.
      We’re not trying to gain from the core, (though it could happen anyway) we’re trying to gain from the rest, the 10% which vastly outnumbers the ‘incomer’ demographic you hate so much. Even if the 2014 referendum had been restricted to ‘Born in and Resident in Scotland only’ it would have been an even split 50-50. Look to ourselves not to ‘them’

      Here is something to conjure with:
      NO vote swing reasons were predominantly because 1/Scotland would be worse off 2/ It would gain more Devolved powers and be in the EU
      Switching from Yes to No it was 1/ Fear of Pensions and 2/ Promised more Devolved powers.
      Across the board, all demographics (yes, including English voters) the ‘More powers/Devolution’ issue was at the heart of their decisions along with being worse off finacially and out of Europe.

      As I previously mentioned; by far the majority census is: ‘Scotland loves its Parliament’. You want to campaign on a blanket message? Focus on the defenestration of the Scottish Parliament – The removal of its devolved powers, what is actually devolved and what is not. They’re out of Europe anyway and the finance fear is as much to do with Brexit as Independence now.

      To go into @Rock prediction mode: “If” Scotland ever votes for independence – the prime reason and turning point will be right here this year, where Westminster sought to tear devolution away from Holyrood, ripped Scotland out of Europe and told its Parliament to ‘piss off’ in Court.
      The Union’s 47% core is on shaky ground and it’s ‘Undecideds’ won’t flock to it this time.

    238. paul says:


      If you do not like the way people comment, please appreciate that they do, and that there is somewhere to do so.

      For now……….

    239. yesindyref2 says:

      Threaded would be good though if there was anything suitable, and even better with a choice of thread or list view.

    240. Roughian says:

      Stu Mac.

      You’re right about being accurate. I got the figures through google, can’t remember the site. I should have double checked before posting. Anyway I emailed BBC about it and guess what got not reply.

    241. Colin Alexander says:

      A wee song fur youse:

      The SNP love devolution,in bed with the Tories, the Tories.

      And there were four in a Union (say the SNP) and big Theresa said: roll over, roll over.

      So, the SNP rolled over and Scotland lost out.

      There were 28 in a Union and the EU said: roll over, roll over; the SNP rolled over and the sovereign people lost out.

    242. Daisy Walker says:

      in my best crocodile perth (I’m from Perth not Dundee accent)

      Thats not a song… THIS is a SONG, all together now…

      Tae the tune of ‘what a friend we have in Jesus’

      What’s the point in voting labour
      They will only just Abstain
      Except when claiming their expenses
      Then these troughers know no shame

      They were only flipping houses
      They were only starting WARS
      Not a Socialist amongst them
      Sold out for the House of Lords

      Whats the point in voting Labour
      They will only just Abstain
      Red and Blue they stand together
      Red and Blue they are the same

      Chorus Tune
      They blame the poor and the disabled
      They blame the migrants at the docks
      But most of all when all else fails them
      They blame it on the bloody Jocks

      What’s the point in voting labour
      They will only just Abstain
      Except when voting for Their pay rise
      Then these troughers know no shame

      They were only flipping houses
      They were only starting WARS
      Not a Socialist amongst them
      Sold out for the House of Lords

      What a friend we have in Corbyn
      Keeping trident on the Clyde
      And where he stands on good auld Brexshit
      Is with the Tory’s side by side

      They were only flipping houses
      They were only starting WARS
      Not a Socialist amongst them
      Sold out for the House of Lords


    243. yesindyref2 says:

      There was a young laddie called Colin
      Who kept on sticking his pole in
      He thought he was cute
      But as daft as a newt
      And everyone knew he was trollin

    244. Ken500 says:

      Que. No comprende

      Try and get it right. Especially criticising others. Not too hot at maths?

      It just needs a 5% swing. Ie 200,000. To change from No to Yes.

      Take it from one side and add to the other. If that is understandable.

      Or just keep quiet. Do not show ignorance. Or is that not understandable.

      If the migrants had not been allowed to vote. Just as in a GE. It would have been closer. They voted to stay in the EU, 200,000. With a residential qualification. No students etc. YES could have won.

      It can still be won next time, The Westminster unionist shambles. Most people are sick of it. Just let it run it’s course. Then Independence.

    245. Ken500 says:

      Never has there been such despicable liars as the ‘Press’. They know in an Independent Scotland they would be out of a job. That is why they are so agin it, They can’t count or read a balance sheet. They can’t analyse, Utterly useless. They owe their position to political patronage. More interested in retaining their cushy number, then in any real analysis. A complete farce. Lie after lie after lie.

      £400 fine for an illegal £100K donation, May is in on the corrupt electoral practices. Cambridge Analytica attendance at Downing Street.

    246. Iain mhor says:

      Hi @Ken500
      I think you meant my figures…
      I only mentioned the swing to ‘No’ at around 360,000 votes (approx 10%) that I admit was incorrect. It wasn’t a ‘swing’ it was a ‘winning margin’ It was an approx 8% swing above their baseline of 47%.
      I didn’t make that clear, apologies. Although I mentioned it in an earlier post.
      I didn’t say 10% was what ‘Yes’ needed to win. I previously mentioned a much smaller figure is required to put ‘Yes’ on parity with ‘No’ @144,000 or 4% of 2014 ballot (Yes baseline being 43%) after that it would be up to a smaller pool of 6% ‘Don’t knows’ to decide which side to swing to and give a win.
      In effect, as ‘Yes’ enticed approx 1.5% of undecideds to swing to it in the final stages of 2014, ‘No’ would have an even more reduced pool of approx 4.5% to fight to retain if that held up this time. It’s why they are going spare just now.
      I reckon an even smaller, easily achievable 72,000 converts before a referendum would have polls showing 45-47% Yes/No
      When the public see that, it’s game on…

      *No’s base is not 55% – individual polls may show that as a snapshot occasionally, but its long term trend to date has only ever been, before and since 2014 – 47%
      Similarly ‘Yes’ long trend at 43%. Despite snapshots of under 40% etc.
      No gained approx 8% – Yes gained approx 1.5% – total was approx 10% win for No.
      Not, as I’m happy to correct/clarify – a 10% swing

    247. ed says:

      Not too poor, not too small, but my god too stupid.

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