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Wings Over Scotland

Stakeholder engagement

Posted on September 08, 2018 by

Kenny McBride is a Wings reader. This is his personal experience and view. 

A couple of weeks ago Ian Small, BBC Scotland’s Head of Public Policy, wrote an article for the Scotsman addressing the question of anti-independence bias at Pacific Quay. Naturally he defended the Corporation strongly, but he also made what seemed like an invitation:

The issue over BBC content being posted online brought a further consequence, with over 200 people turning up at Pacific Quay in Glasgow last week to demonstrate against BBC bias. We offered to talk. That offer still stands. We want to engage, constructively, in dialogue with those who question our journalism or are suspicious of our decision-making.”

I was sceptical, of course, but nothing ventured, nothing gained, so I decided to act.

I didn’t want to go in without hauners, and I knew who I wanted by my side: David Hooks. I actually knew Dave back when we were both boy sopranos in a choir, but we reconnected recently when I saw this video:

I knew Dave was determined to see a better media landscape in Scotland and had a good grasp of the issues. I got in touch with him and we made a plan of action. We called the BBC and fairly quickly got to speak to Mr. Small’s secretary. She was very friendly and immediately offered us an appointment for yesterday.

We were met by Mr. Small and his colleague Alasdair MacLeod, the head of Editorial Policy and Compliance for BBC Scotland, who offered us tea, coffee and biscuits and were generally very welcoming. We didn’t expect to have much time, so we got right down to business.

In advance of the meeting, we sent an agenda/summary of our concerns to try help make the meeting go smoothly and be sure of saying all we wanted to say. This is what it looked like:


Structural Bias

– England as Britain: not enough distinction given to Scottish differences within the UK and those that are given tend to be negative comparisons. Not enough clarity on what is devolved versus reserved and often blurring that line. “National” news routinely covers England-only issues (e.g. education, policing, national sports teams) but only rarely covers stories from the other nations of the UK.

Reporting Scotland is required to cover not only Scottish national stories in the same way as the “national” news but also cover stories that would be “regional” news in England. This leads to a perception of Scottish issues as parochial and insignificant.

– Lack of Scotland-specific political coverage: total airtime for Scottish political programming has fallen substantially in recent years. This is particularly problematic as this fall has coincided with an increase in the responsibilities of the Scottish Parliament.


BBC Scotland should lobby BBC HQ for greater resources and more input into “national” news programming.

BBC Scotland should reinstate Scotland 2018/Newsnight Scotland with appropriate resources and consider a daily show comparable to Politics Live.

BBC Scotland should lobby Westminster parliament for devolution of broadcasting to the Scottish Parliament.

Editorial Policy

Almost half of the country supports independence but there is a significant lack of representation of this in most current affairs and cultural programming.

Guests on commentary shows are often vehemently anti-independence and those who are pro-independence are often unrepresentative of the movement as a whole but rather of smaller, fringe groups.

Methods of reporting and interview often appear biased towards a unionist perspective:

There is an apparent pattern (especially on Sunday Politics Scotland) of an SNP representative being interviewed remotely or before the broadcast with 3 opposition representatives then given the chance to debate and rebut what was said with no easy right of reply for the SNP.

Newspaper reviews (and allowing newspapers to lead the agenda) poses a specific problem due to the disproportionate number of strongly unionist newspapers and an almost complete absence of reference to websites which may have comparable readerships and trust levels to mainstream newspapers.

Stories involving the Scottish Government often refer to “the SNP government” where the UK government is mentioned without party name

Similarly, when a councillor, MP or MSP is involved in any kind of scandal, there is an apparent pattern of referring to that person’s party only when that party is the SNP.

Differential reporting of accusations against SNP or their representatives versus other parties

Michelle Thompson and Alex Salmond vs Ruth Davidson, Alistair Majury and David Mundell

Nicola Sturgeon was doorstepped about Jenna Marra’s false claim regarding an NHS payoff on Monday but on Tuesday Ruth Davidson was named in a headline for criticising Boris Johnson’s burka remarks without even appearing on screen, with no mention made of her own councillors, MPs and MSPs apparent epidemic of racism and bigotry.

Bias by omission and story selection

It often appears that positive stories about Scotland and the Scottish Government are given a lower news value (shorter items, lower down the running order) than negative stories.

Lack of pursuit of Ruth Davidson over the “Dark Money” scandal and over racism and bigotry in her party. This is particularly problematic given that BBC journalists have expressed their frustration at Davidson’s lack of availability for interview, yet this stonewalling has never become a story in itself nor led to the kind of doorstepping that the FM faces regularly.


On each press or news review segment, prominent new media sites should be included in the review. A pro-independence commentator should always be present to offer the alternative perspective to the (almost exclusively) unionist newspapers.

BBC should commission and publish independent academic research to examine BBC news output for signs of bias and to make recommendations for improvements where needed.

Conduct an internal review of editorial policy to examine how decisions about story selection and running order are made.

Transparency and trust

The BBC’s complaints procedure is unwieldy and difficult to navigate. Complaints are often met with evasion, deflection and obfuscation.

BBC Scotland is unreasonably secretive, misusing journalistic exemptions to FOI requests to avoid even providing viewership figures to journalists.

BBC journalists often seem combative and overly defensive on social media. This is not helpful in building trust.


Simplify the complaints procedure and seek independent scrutiny of the process.

Monitor complaints and respond meaningfully and publicly to the most common ones.

Be more open and transparent about the inner workings of the organisation. Avoid using journalistic FOI exemptions to prevent the release of information that cannot realistically be considered a journalistic source in need of protection.

Engage meaningfully with the independence movement through public and private meetings to rebuild trust.

We tried to work through this systematically, but in any conversation tangents are inevitable. We began with the structural issues since these are the ones we felt we might have the greatest agreement on.

We highlighted the “News Where You Are” problem in depth, discussing the conflation of England and the UK in “national” news and current affairs programmes, the recent decline in political programming in Scotland and the complications of guest selection for shows like Question Time.

Our hosts agreed this was a real problem. No immediate answers were forthcoming, but they did stress that the recent correction made on the “national” news about GERS had been as a result of bosses at BBC Scotland yelling at their London colleagues about how important it was to get this stuff right.

According to them, they insisted that the correction even be delivered in the same slot the next day so that it would reach as close as possible to the same audience as had heard the original mistake.

They also hoped that the news hour on the new BBC Scotland channel would help to redress some of the imbalance, as would a new political magazine show that is in development for the channel. There was also a slightly more nebulous hope that the new channel would have the resources to produce more content for the network, thus inserting more Scottish content into Politics Live and Newsnight.

There were obviously no guarantees about any of this, but both men stressed that the BBC in London has been told that if the channel fails, it will be the fault of Broadcasting House for not supporting it enough, and not Pacific Quay who failed to deliver.

Their ambition is laudable and I believed their intentions were good. Of course, the success of the channel’s news output will be determined by whether our editorial concerns are addressed.

We accepted, as Derek Bateman and others have said, that there’s probably no grand conspiracy to denigrate independence, its supporters, the SNP and Scotland. Nevertheless, we perceive significant problems in how things are done at the BBC. This part of the discussion covered several different topics from different angles, including interviewing styles, story framing, headline selection, running orders, accuracy and unequal treatment of each side of the constitutional debate.

Unsurprisingly, this was when our hosts became most defensive. However, they did listen to all we had to say and on a few issues we saw both take notes on things they wanted to check up on. When we mentioned the “Protecting Ruth Davidson” video we were met with a passionate retort of “I can assure you we don’t protect Ruth Davidson!” After we went into some of the details of how we perceived things though, that defence became much more muted.

Everyone has biases. It is possible that all the bias we see is actually our own confirmation bias letting us see what we want to see. We acknowledged that and so two of our key recommendations were that BBC Scotland should commission independent research to identify any areas for improvement and conduct an internal review to determine how decisions on running order and story selection are made. There are ways to reduce bias and ways to check for unconscious bias. We urge the BBC to do so.

Our final concern was transparency and trust and again, on this issue there was a fair level of agreement. We talked about the BBC’s almost universal rejection of FOI requests. Ian Small himself is responsible for much of their FOI compliance and he felt there was some misunderstanding about FOI. He claims that on most occasions, the best thing to do is just to call him and ask for the information, while FOI requests have to be treated within a very narrow scope.

We don’t know how true this is, but we hope journalists from the pro-indy side of the fence will take the advice on board and let us know how they get on.

Our hosts recognised that the BBC Complaints procedure is clunky, slow and frustrating, but they also insisted that it is scrupulously fair and honest and that the third stage of the process can even be intimidating for them as it is seriously forensic. We also talked about the behaviour of BBC journalists and officials in dealing with the public. They agreed that it was the BBC’s job to rebuild trust and that they would look into any ways they could do so.

The meeting lasted almost two hours – far longer than we had expected – and we both left feeling about as positive as possible. There was no outright admission of guilt but no-one expected that. There was an acknowledgement though, that some things don’t work very well and need to be improved.

Our hosts agreed to review our concerns, look into a few specific issues that arose and get back to us in a week or so to update us on what actions they plan to take. As we said several times during the meeting, our solution would be to become an independent country with its own national broadcaster, but we have to work with what we’ve got and make our existing institutions better. They were committed to listening politely, if nothing else.

We can only hope that meaningful action will be forthcoming. We believe that if the new channel is to be a success then some of our proposed actions MUST be taken.

In the meantime, if you have a group that would like to talk to the BBC about its news output, now is the time to ask for that meeting. If you have something you want to say, write them a letter.

We often complain that we don’t get the BBC we deserve and that it doesn’t listen to its customers/owners very well. For once it appears that they’re listening, so let’s make ourselves heard.

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  1. 08 09 18 08:56

    Stakeholder engagement | speymouth

805 to “Stakeholder engagement”

  1. starlaw says:

    Expect the new channel will start with every effort made to draw in viewers, with a very pro Scotland outlook, then slide back into same old story I won’t be watching it. I now utterly detest the BBC.

  2. ScottieDog says:

    Well done and a very well organised case too!
    I see they filed a claim on phantom power for using material about the eruption and evacuation of Heimaey. We watched that footage in geography FFS!

  3. MajorBloodnok says:

    This is impressive.

  4. Bob Mack says:

    I applaud your determination.

    However I think room 101 is currently holding your complaints.

    Significantly it seems to be limited editorial control if they have to clear everything with BBC central, and that further reduces my confidence in their impartiality, as the BBC has alluded to the fact that it is in support of the UK and not to the idea of an indy Scotland.

    Well done though in letting them know what is the general concensus from indy supporters.

  5. Stoker says:

    Couldn’t read all that. Eventually stopped at the line “..there was a fair level of agreement.” Well i never!

    And then there was their vehement denial of protecting The Mooth. Well, no shit Sherlock!

    The BBC is anti-independence, full stop, it’s what they do. And any hope of that changing is delusion at its grandest.

    Scotland claiming back her right to self-determination is the only way to secure a proper media with our own proper national broadcaster.

    Meanwhile, don’t ever expect the British Unionist Media to play along and help us out. That’s just pure fantasy.

  6. Ceri Williams says:

    What an interesting article. The BBC, like most “national” organisations struggles with the collective lack of memory and/or misunderstanding that the union was meant to be a joining of two equal nations. Given that England has an imperial past it is perhaps understandable that it can not be comfortable with the idea of partnership (with Scotland, with the EU, with anyone!). After 300 years waiting for the penny to drop, the only option is to leave them to their collective dementia and move on.

  7. ScottieDog says:

    I feel the same but think it is still important to engage. Their treatment of Jeremy Corbyn for me demonstrates that BBC is a right wing propoaganda machine. There may welll be a smattering Of well-meaning employees at PQ but that will make little difference.

    The important thing however is if given the opportunity to engage, then we should. Well done to kenny and Dave

  8. Muscleguy says:

    I strongly suspect that the Ruth Davidson things is a combination of factor:, real bias stemming from a liberal delight that she is gay but military; A system problem on the wider BBC about robust challenging of governing party figures post Gilligan and more recently that she is pregnant.

    The BBC should ask Jacinda Arden, PM of New Zealand about that. I believe they interviewed her while she was pregnant. She flew overseas on state visits. If PQ is soft soaping Ruth because she is pregnant they need to take a hard look at their attitudes.

    As for the governing party bias Davidson is an opposition figure here in Scotland. In England opposition figures get roasted on the BBC. Here in Scotland they are soft soaped. Why BBC Scotland? Why?

  9. Fatweegee says:

    Very balanced report. I personally think Mr. Small feels he was shoved under a bus by London on the Wings YouTube farce and is on a bit of a crusade to build bridges with the Scottish viewing public, how successful that will be – who knows?

  10. Jim Finnie says:

    Absolutely right and well done. For the root of the problem you probably don’t need to look much further than the first letter in the acronym. Aye, there are more folk in England, but that’s almost exclusively conflated with “Britain”. Good luck!

  11. Daisy Walker says:

    Very well done guys, well put too.

    I suspect they are just playing the ‘daft laddie’ card now and giving the Indy movement a sweetie. Their core output and gameplay won’t change, but there will be some tinkering at the edges.

    We shall see.

  12. Grouse Beater says:

    “We accepted, as Derek Bateman and others have said, that there’s probably no grand conspiracy to denigrate independence, its supporters, the SNP and Scotland.”


  13. John says:

    Well things will clearly change for the better now that you have spoken.

  14. Gullane No4 says:

    Thanks for your splendid effort Kenny.
    I sense a wind change with the BBC.

    We all need to keep that pressure constant till we see a difference.

  15. Calum McKay says:

    Interesting and revealing article.

    bbc are at it across all fronts in Scotland, sometimes subtle and at other times blatant.

    Its bias goes in cycles, when becoming too obvious or has done the job it takes its foot off the pedal for a while, then when needed, it starts all over.

    Would we expect Russian, Spanish, Turkish or Canadian TV to present a fair picture of those seeking independence in their states?

    Clue is in the name bbc, where it is controlled from and how it is funded.

    As for an independent review of bbc in its entirety in scotland, I”d like to see an investigation by the likes of John Pilger or Michael Moore.

    Ulitimately, bbc can“t be trusted in Scotland!

  16. EnglishScot says:

    Born and brought up in London,I used to trust BBC news content without question.Then I came to live in Scotland and quickly realised that, unlike me, they did not have an open mind.The extreme anti-Scottish, anti-SNP bias is so overwhelming that I never watch or listen to BBC news anymore. I simply do not trust anything they say about Scotland. Like so much about life in Scotland, the only solution to this and many other issues facing us is Independence. Then we can be like other normal and successful small countries, able to speak for ourselves.

  17. Patsy Millar says:

    I also think it was a good idea to meet Ian Small, thus removing any excuse to say that the BBC offered to meet with representatives of the independence movement but were rebuffed. Perhaps the BBC will just revert to form, but at least they can’t say they don’t know what some of the problems are. Well done Kenny & Dave.

  18. frogesque says:

    Well done guys!

    The next phase of the Indy battle is getting underway with marches, demos, Indy kits, bridges etc. Any improvement in network coverage is be welcomed however small that may be.

    Good news doesn’t sell papers unfortunately but BBC Scotland should be proud to represent our wonderful country as an outward looking vibrant nation, not cower under the London whip.

  19. Iain Lawson says:

    Well argued raising many of the concerns that are widely shared across Scotland. The test of course is what happens next but they must know their viewing figures in these areas are plummeting.

  20. Reluctant Nationalist says:

    I do not need nor want the BBC. A pox on them.

  21. As Nicola says,

    `Communication not Confrontation`.

    like USA and North Korea,you gotta start with a conversation,

    (not sayin BBC is in anyway to be compared with the State run media in NK,no siree,:)

    an even playing field is all you can ask for.

  22. ALANM says:

    Whenever the BBC forecast a dry day I always make a point of carrying an umbrella. Never trust anything they say or do.

    Their new tv channel is being set up to fail. When it does the BBC will simply conclude that there’s no demand for a separate Scottish programming.

  23. heraldnomore says:

    Congratulations guys, for tackling that head on in a very professional manner. I retain some hope that thing may change, but sadly shy of confidence.

    Almost missed Slacker Cairns…

  24. Albaman says:

    Very well done you two, the old saying “if you don’t ask, you don’t get” is very pertinent here.

  25. stu mac says:

    @Grouse Beater says:
    8 September, 2018 at 8:57 am
    “We accepted, as Derek Bateman and others have said, that there’s probably no grand conspiracy to denigrate independence, its supporters, the SNP and Scotland.”


    No doubt there is no grand conspiracy (and if there was it would be a grubby wee one) but as has often been said, there is often in big organisations a confirmation bias or rather, group-think among those who run them. You don’t get far promotion wise unless you conform to the bias (and often you already have that bias. No conspiracy grand or grubby but the effect is almost the same as if there were. I understand the //sigh// – to talk about conspiracy and then (rightly) dismiss it is to ignore the real problem. I have no doubt at the very top there is an agenda but there is no need to have a big plan; just make sure the right type of people work for you and the system will do the rest.

  26. Albaman says:

    Did you read/see the latest ” barnstorming” demand from the Kelty clippie ?, Wullie demands that the S.N.P. drop inderef2 in order for them (the libdems) to support the budget!!!!!.

  27. Dorothy Devine says:

    GrouseBeater and ReluctantNationalist make that two sighs and two poxes.

    Excellent video.

  28. Les Wilson says:

    I think the guys did very well, however, they are dealing with the most partisan, devious, media in the world. The BBC’s job is to protect the UK Government and their precious Union against whoever the threat may come from.
    They will not have anything stand in their way. They are Westminster poodles and will jump through hoops when told to do so.

    To think complaints will be heard at higher level at all is hard to believe, certainly no action will be taken,protection of the state is their known agenda and they do not hide it.

    Scotland is a huge issue for the UK they will not rescind their propaganda against Scotland. No matter how much we want fairness to apply to our important issues, we are never, ever, going to get it. To think otherwise, is truly naive.

    Our best efforts will not change their ways, they cannot, will not ever change. Scotland is an English possession in their eyes, to use and abuse as they see fit. It is actually an occupation, dressed up around the edges.

    We can only change Scotland by our own efforts and we know well how we can do that and the wind of change is blowing.

  29. sassenach says:

    Sorry, but if this was their original premise:-

    “We accepted, as Derek Bateman and others have said, that there’s probably no grand conspiracy to denigrate independence, its supporters, the SNP and Scotland.”….

    It seems a bit pointless going further!

    It’s not a ‘grand conspiracy’, it’s a f***ing GIGANTIC one! Open your eyes.

  30. montfleury says:

    Great work Kenny. It never even occurred to me to ask to meet them
    face to face. That’s the way real change comes about.

    We should all reflect on this, and those of us who still watch BBC news output shouldn’t hesitate to take the same action – calm, fact-based conversations are the way to influence bureaucracies.

  31. Returnofthemac says:

    Good to see taking the BBC bias to their doorstep. I don’t mean this to sound negative on your efforts as you were in the room and had the conversation. Until the BBC “have a word” with Jakey, toodloothenoo, Smit, and the Brewmeister about bias in their questioning, delivery and condescending attitude to Snp mp’ s and MSP’s then nothing will change. Thanks for the effort guys.

  32. A Bruce says:

    Kenny, thanks to you and David for this. I’m grateful you tried.

    All the points you raised, I recognise as matters which made my blood boil when I used to watch BBC news and political output.

    I keep hearing this (or something akin to) “probably not” a conspiracy. Do Scottish people actually believe this? BBC journalists and presenters are mouthpieces of the UK Government which is actually the colonial English regime as there’s nothing “UK” about it. There is no way they will ever allow a fair hearing for the 50% or so who support an independent Scotland.

    I have no intention of watching BBC ever again. I don’t miss it, I don’t pay the TV licence fee and never will.

  33. Bryan Weir says:

    Well meaning but …

  34. Truth says:

    All respect to you, but I have better things to do with my time.

    I read your whole article and I am impressed with your approach and achievement. However, I hold out no hope that anything will change.

    The only point in your agenda that matters is the devolution of broadcasting and media to the Scottish Parliament. I note that this appears to have been absent from your actual discussion with them. Go figure.

  35. David B says:

    I attended an event last Monday where it was realised that the new News Where You Are is being set up to fail. It is being put on at 9 PM apparently which is generally regarded in TV land as the slot for ents shows looking for big audiences. If its up against “blockbuster” stuff it will not draw a significant audience.

    They are cynical bastards. We are mushrooms. Remember Wat Tyler…

  36. Craig Kempik says:

    A very well written piece, very honest, fair, well structured and interesting, the beeb would do well to follow that lead

  37. Pauline Boyd says:

    This is the same bbc who helped cost us independence in 2014. The best thing Indy supporters could do is ditch it. For example. How was Jamie Hepburn treated recently by a BBC interviewer?
    Was it the bbc who allowed Ruth Davidson to film a piece straight to camera and not even be asked one question? The bbc are biased. Look at the treatment Corbyn is getting at this point in time. Even people down south are beginning to see this. It is an anti independence pro Tory mouthpiece as far as I’m concerned and the best thing I ever did was ditch my tv and stop funding bias. The amount of airtime UKIP get on question time compared to the snp says it all.

  38. Marcia says:

    Perhaps a slight change of wind direction by BBCS but that wind can change direction suddenly. We shall wait and see. Still not watching their news output.

  39. Fred says:

    Very good article. Let’s have some heads on plates as a gesture of goodwill. Glen Campbell, Jackie Bird, Gordon Brewer & Donalda will do for starters!

  40. ronnie anderson says:

    Kenny McBride Mike Small will get a invitation from us on the 27th Oct to come out of the crystal palace & speak to the people on the BBC Pacific Quay doorstep , ( will he do it I have my doubts ) as Bob Mack say’s your in room 101, btw did you’s have a minute taker or a recording of said meeting . [ their listening ] all that you have posted above has been said in the many numerous letters of complaint for years Mike Small is a regional mouthpiece & will do as he’s told by Bbc London .

    In reading your post I see you never broached the subject of Bbc BLACKLIST of people who support Independence Actors / Comedians / Presenters but you can bring that up in any future tete-a-tete over the Hobnobs .

  41. galamcennalath says:

    Well done!

    Your overview document about what’s wrong at the BBC hits the nail. An excellent statement.

    However, I just can’t believe the BBC relentlessly undermining Scottish democracy is simply institutional. It is so consistently overwhelming, it must be planned.

    It would be nice to think some positive changes come out of your efforts. However, I can’t help but believe, after all that has transpired, the BBC is beyond recovery and redemption. It will be removed and replaced in iScotland.

  42. Stookie says:

    Well done for trying guys.
    I hope you went thru a Hazmat chamber on the way out …

  43. HandandShrimp says:

    Well done for setting out our concerns clearly and coherently. The BBC have it within their means to address much that we find troubling and hopefully this has given them food for thought.

    I’m still a bit sceptical that the upper echelons of the BBC will remain anything other than resolutely unionist but even if we loosen the mortar around the bars a little we might get some movement.

  44. Astonished says:

    The BBC are dying in Scotland. No one completely trusts them and they know it.

    There is a grand conspiracy to lie to the Scots and thus keep them in this hellish union. By pretending to address your concerns they hope to bolster their audience before indyref2.

    Their propaganda wont work if no one is watching.

    Please don’t offer them any avenues to bolster their audience. For I am certain the week before indyref2 it will be glen campbell, gordo the liar , essler etc with new mendacious lies which the snp will be unable to rebut. If the BBC are a laughing stock then their lies wont matter.

    (I am typing this in a secret bunker due to the SNP civil war)

  45. Macart says:

    A good initiative and they certainly can’t now say they haven’t been made quite publicly aware of the issues.

    Chances of Ms MacKinnon and her head office superiors taking the points onboard however?

  46. Famous15 says:

    ‘No grand conspiracy” is true in the sense say Saladin had no grand cospiracy to kill crusaders or Ghenjis Khan had no grand cospiracy to slice to bits anyone who stood in his way.

    It was their expectation and “rightful” thing to do as they created their empires.

    They did not conspire they just up and did it just as the BBC as mouthpiece of the British Nationalist Imperialists do. Dogs bark,ducks quack FGS.

  47. Garrioch David says:

    We used to assume it was Labour-linked nepotism that dictated BBC Scotland policy. The Tories have been in charge in London for years.

    So is it “deep state “ as Trump says, that has it in for democratic representation up here ?

  48. Tinto Chiel says:

    Well done for confronting them with your complaints. However, whether groupthink or conspiracy is the factor, I fear Vichy Vision will never change its ways.

    In fact, given the stakes for the Establishment as we move towards Indyref2, I fear things will only get worse.

  49. Bob Costello says:

    Excellent, well structured arguments and hopefully there will be a more detailed response., Definitely a good start, well done.

  50. Ged O'Brien says:

    The issue goes right to the core of the State’s being. The Kingdom is united: any opposition to that fact is, by definition, not good. Whilst the BBC by law, is supposed to promote the idea of a nation state of four different units, then it cannot and will never be fair. The question of fairness is an irrelevance. You might as well ask a shark why it is so aggressive.

    Still, it is good for us to be engaging with them. Some of our media must be smart enough to realise that they should be laying a trail of non-bias, for when we are independent and we need broadcasters who at least have a veneer of professionalism.

  51. ROBBO says:

    Great admiration for your efforts and sincerely hope they bring change. I do not doubt there are SOME in BBC Scotland that feel the same but BBC London’s views will prevail and I do not see any materila change happening anytime soon particularly with another Indy Ref around the corner.

  52. Cubby says:

    Well done for putting all the points to the BBC.

    It is now a lot harder for them to say they have never had a concise case put to them.

    However like independence supporters who think that some of the so called newspapers like the Record were changing or may change to support independence – sorry it ain’t going to happen. They are just playing games with us. Divide and conquer.

    Will the BBC report the details of the meeting on its news channel or publish your list of concerns and its action plan (assuming they actually prepare one ) on its website or its news channel. No it won’t – it can find time for swimming hedgehog stories though.

    Did they actually accept a bias against independence-not the impression I got reading the above. The BBC is the British state propaganda machine. It’s the job of the BBC to be biased against the break up of the Union.

    For those btl comments who say talking is good. To what end? If any of the managers at BBC Propaganda Quay admit their bias or try to tone it down they will soon be looking for a new career. Like so many organisations in Scotland BBC Scotland is just a branch office controlled by England.

    The only time it will change is with independence. Then some of these people may sing a different song if they want to keep a job in Scotland. Most will move to England where they will find out how welcome they are – not.

  53. Mike says:

    “We accepted, as Derek Bateman and others have said, that there’s probably no grand conspiracy to denigrate independence, its supporters, the SNP and Scotland.”

    NO. A thousand times No. This is just naïve and head in the sand thinking. Of course there is a BBC media conspiracy with the UK state to subvert the Independence movement. Jesus Christ has nothing been more obvious and transparent? A few sympathetic words and platitudes from BBC Scotland bosses and all the BBC broadcasting during the Indyref campaign is forgotten? Seriously guys?
    BBC Scotland is nothing but the whipping boy of BBC London and BBC London are nothing but the state broadcaster for the UK state. Nothing is more clearer or glaringly obvious as that fact.

  54. HandandShrimp says:

    Listened to the radio this morning and they were discussing the conferences, apparently it is the Liberal conference today (no idea where Willie has parked the Fiat 500), and regarding the SNP their expert says the SNP will be creaking with civil war. I really don’t think they have a finger on the body much less the pulse.

    I think the fact that the other two parties are riven from top to bottom does make civil war the norm but SNP unity seems to rattle them. SNP party discipline isn’t something that is enforced from above it is just that we have a goal and we can agree to disagree on side issues. that goal isn’t going to go away.

  55. I went to the PQ demonstration and was disappointed to hear that an ivitation to discuss the complaints was not taken up. I do not know why it was not accepted.

    You are to be congratulated on taking the ititiative and going in to the meeting so well prepared. So many of us bleat about the BBC without doing anything about it. However, if we do nothing then they will continue on their merry way misrepresenting Scotland and sometimes downright lying to the wider public.

    I will continue to submit complaints to the BBC and will be watching to see if their usual response of denial and obscuring the issue with impenetrable language changes. I am so sick of their behaviour that I will hope, but not hold my breath on that one.

  56. Tom says:

    It was BBC bias that was partially responsible for me voting yes in 2014.

  57. Mike says:

    “I can assure you we don’t protect Ruth Davidson!”

    Seriously? Does anybody actually believe that?

    Not only has the BBC avoided confronting her on the many dark issues that plague her leadership they have Openly gone out of their way to praise and present her as a formidable leader and serious opponent of the SNP.
    The BBC as much as anybody ensured Davidson took seats at the last election.

    Does anybody actually doubt that?

  58. Robert Alexander Harrison says:

    By doing that they can’t claim they didn’t talk with independence supporters because they refused to meet with the bbc and good job silencing them when they tryed to defend they wasn’t protecting Ruth Davidson that means what was said was fact and had no defence against it but like before they will pretend to scurtinze the cons for a few weeks then go back to giving them free regin to lie on camera whenever they want like before seen it before when the daily politics was on and politics live is the same daily politics muck as before just with a new make over same old baised crap different name to try and fool us really bbc.

  59. Flower of Scotland says:

    Thanks for doing this guys. We have to try every way we can to get a an even playing field at least.

    Great effort!

    I’m another that cancelled my TV license and nothing on this earth would make me watch BBC news again. However for the folk who do watch news on TV and are often swayed by the reporting you’ve done them a service.

    I’m not hopeful of any real change. It is British Broadcasting after all, there to protect and push folk in the direction that THEY want.

  60. Dr Jim says:

    Tell me again how you negotiate with a UK funded government organisation who doesn’t believe you have the right to exist

    You’re not negotiating with the BBC you’re negotiating with the Boris Johnsons and Theresa Mays and the power of the British state who not so long ago would have had you killed for having the temerity to walk through their doors let alone open your mouth to speak

    Whilst I respect and commend your determination motives and efforts

    Your heid’s oot the windae, nobody wins in nogotiations with the British state unless they have something the British state wants or you have a big *sword* (metaphoric) with which to bring down upon their heads

    Nice you had tea and biscuits though

  61. Doug says:

    I don’t think this will hurt. It might not work but if we are only dismissive and antagonist then the BBC will never really engage with us and see us as a threat.

    No-one is convinced of an argument at the end of a knife. They are convinced by reasonable discourse and facts and figures.

    Maybe this will lead to nothing – but if we don’t try we will get nowhere.

    Now how can we force multiply this – should we write / email etc?

  62. Elmac says:

    No conspiracy???

    Don’t be so naive. That’s what the last letter of BBC stands for!

  63. Mike says:

    “Our hosts recognised that the BBC Complaints procedure is clunky, slow and frustrating, but they also insisted that it is scrupulously fair and honest and that the third stage of the process can even be intimidating for them as it is seriously forensic.”

    Which only goes to highlight a serious motivation to ensure it never gets past the second stage.

  64. Luigi says:

    Well folks,

    as they say: “the proof of the puddin is in the eatin”.

    Part of the old “Consult and ignore” trick?

    We shall see. How long before this great new understanding and good intent lasts? How long before it is (sigh) business as usual?

    Personally, I give it four days max. 🙂

  65. exile says:

    I think everyone – especially SNP politicians, and during FMQs – should stop using the words “devolved” and “reserved”. They are confusing and ambiguous. Instead use “Holyrood” or “Scottish Parliament”, and “Westminster” or “UK Parliament”. Then it will be clear to voters in Scotland exactly what each parliament can and cannot do. And the limited powers available to the Scottish Parliament will be obvious.

  66. PictAtRandom says:

    Yes, yes, but we need to acknowledge that the meeja sometimes call it right.
    Consider Thursday’s Scotsman with its prophetic headline “Hearts stars John Souttar and Steven Naismith involved in car crash…”

  67. gregor says:

    BBC’s Ian Small is a corrupt bully and doesn’t really want to engage and talk.

    I was sanctioned by BBC’s Ian Small (with Orwellian cherry-picked tactics) for apparently sending too many BBC complaints since the first Scottish referendum.

    According to the BBC my legitimate complaints are a waste of BBC licence tax renenue.

  68. Capella says:

    It’s good to talk.
    It’s better to listen.
    I’m not holding my breath but good for you in calling their bluff and getting your points across.

    Regarding a “grand conspiracy”, is there evidence?

    Why were Hugh McDairmid and Hamish Henderson banned from the BBC?

    Why is “Outlander” not broadcast in Scotland, practically the only country in the world where it isn’t broadcast?

    Why are writers for the BBC in their “Scotland Region” advised not to write about “a way of life that is no longer lived in Scotland” when that advice doesn’t apply to their other Regions. British TV is awash with period drama – Peaky Blinders, Poldark, Call the Midwife, Downton Abbey etc. all celebrating a way of life no longer lived.

    I don’t watch the BBC and I won’t be doing so unless there is some clear evidence that it has transformed into a real national broadcasting service for Scotland with the full range of programmes that any other normal country would expect.

    Keep us posted if there is any follow up. It’s an interesting episode in our multi part series – why are Scots paying £320 million for this!

  69. Mike says:

    Kudos and full marks for actually confronting BBC Scotland and highlighting these issues but honestly guys if you expect the BBC in Scotland to change its behaviour over any Scottish Independence issue or SNP story then you’ve been played.
    You should try bringing these issues up with BBC London and see how far you get if for no other reason than an experiment.
    BBC Scotland is BBC London just as Labour in Scotland is Labour in London. There is ONLY 1 BBC in the UK and it has a branch in Scotland.

  70. Gullane No4 says:

    We need to draw BBC Scotland into the debate.

    When we gain independence we will need a state broadcaster.

    Thanks to the BBC we have a pretty sound infrastructure and competency of skills. We do not want to throw that away in a hissy fit.

    Slowly slowly catchy monkey, keep up the pressure and step up to the plate like the two lads have done.
    It is also good to see internal posts on Wings we need to lessen the weight on Stu’s shoulders.

    Direct action appears to be working, the AUOB marches have been a triumph.

    We need to look at other areas which will work. Independently [crowdfunded] bill boards/ TV adverts are an obvious one in my wee mind

  71. Dr Jim says:

    As @Robert Peffers has explained a million squillion billion times not paying your license fee doesn’t stop one penny going to the BBC even though the motive is just the end result is no dfference because the BBC is funded from general taxation the license *fee* is just a con tax to pretend that the people have some involvement in something they actually dont

  72. Nana says:

    Their agenda is clear ‘anti snp’ ‘anti independence’
    Och, maybe we will get a couple of nice wee feelgood articles and then whoosh it will be back to the bash and trash Scotland which we have all become accustomed to.

    The paragraph below should be enough for any Scot to realise how ‘impartial’ they are towards Scottish Independence. Prepared to bully and silence a decent man and you can bet your last penny bbc Scotland were involved.

    (After Robertson’s research was published it was stonewalled and mostly unreported by the BBC. The BBC then went above Robertson’s head to his Principal at the UWS to try (unsuccessfully) to discredit the research and colleagues of his were even warned to “stay away” from him!)

    and this from Paul Mason

    Paul Mason, former economics editor for the BBC’s Newsnight and economics editor for Channel 4 News, confirmed this bias when he later told his Facebook followers of the BBCs referendum coverage: “Not since Iraq have I seen BBC News working at propaganda strength like this. So glad I’m out of there.”

  73. HYUFD says:

    Tebbit once called the BBC ‘the Bolshevik Broadcasting Corporation’and said it was anti Thatcher and anti Tory. Before the EU Referendum Leavers thought it was biased, after the EU referendum Remainers say it is biased. In Scotland pro independence supporters accuse it of bias. To be fair to the BBC if almost everyone has accused it of bias at some point it is probably not too far from the truth

  74. Albaman says:

    I agree with most comments, that the B.B.C. Scotland “controllers” are bias, and fine they know it.
    As we know all it takes is a word missing, or inserted here and there, to completely alter a report to favour one of the unionist party’s.
    They, the B.B.C. are past masters at such a tactic, and they can still do it without the public at large noticing it, ONLY they do!, psychologically the idea that such and such a party is doing so much more that the S.N.P. is quietly imprinted into their subconscious, Job done by the B.B.C. !.

  75. Andy-B says:

    Too little too late, a leopard can’t change its spots. Watch what happens when the date for indyref 2 is announced, they’ll be as biased as ever I’m afraid.

    They can’t be trusted, they’re just an arm of London’s HQ afterall.

  76. r.esquierdo says:

    Unfortunately Pacific quay journalists are puppets of BBC London. Nothing ventured nothing gained. In my opinion very little if anything will change

  77. John Lamb says:

    Well done for your initiative and efforts. I’m sure the points you raised and subsequent discussions with the BBC will be welcomed by independence supporters.

    There’s an underlying point here. Change is coming to Britain and unless BBC Scotland change, in a state of bewilderment, they will be swept away. (Where’s Bob Dylan when you need him)

    Are the BBC listening? Will it make any difference to their present policy?

    Naw kanae see it…

  78. ronnie anderson says:

    Independant Woman 10.36 Mike Small was given a compromise offer , we would speak to him indoors if he would address the assembled Viewers / Licence Fee Payers outdoors . Dont anyone be fooled by the Bbc , they will ramp up the attacks on the SNP & the Indy movement at every opportunity .

  79. Within a year of BBC being founded the UK State had forced Lord Reith to manipulate the news during the General Strike of 1926,

    Lord Reith (who survived WW1)was not a man to give up his integrity/ethics easily,

    if Lord Reith could be manipulated by the State the money hungry blairites that infest the BBC management would/will be easily controlled,

  80. Training Day says:

    No conspiracy? Really? Are we really stuck this far in the foothills of understanding about what the BBC is? After everything they have done to damage, subvert, undermine Scottish self-determination?

    Sorry guys, but you can’t placate this Beast. In fact, they now have the ammunition to say they’ve ‘consulted’ with independence supporters and feign a willingness to change while continuing to be as devious and mendacious as before.

    A plague on Pacific Quay.

  81. Hamish100 says:

    All evidence supports there is an anti-independence stance (I am happy with neutral) but the hint is in the title British.

    Clearly there is a don’t ask nasty questions to one of our previous bbc employees ruth davidson – not allowed , and she is pregnant don’t you know. Oh and that other employee – Lib DEM Jardine nor Gordon the Brownie. They are all coporation man and women.

  82. auld highlander says:

    The BBC R UNTRUSTWORTHY, shout it from the rooftops.

  83. Tinto Chiel says:

    “Why are writers for the BBC in their “Scotland Region” advised not to write about “a way of life that is no longer lived in Scotland” when that advice doesn’t apply to their other Regions. British TV is awash with period drama – Peaky Blinders, Poldark, Call the Midwife, Downton Abbey etc. all celebrating a way of life no longer lived.”

    That’s a beezer of a quotation, Capella, and an excellent point.

    I believe folk are being Vanity Faired to death on BBC this autumn. Makes a change from the usual attack of Austenitis, full of nice landed gentry and happy peasants/yeomen.

    Britnattery Attacks!

  84. Winifred Mccartney says:

    I too was sanctioned by BBC too many complaints – even though there should have been many more. They lie for a living if they contest RD is not protected – just look at the evidence which David Hooks film shows clearly. Still the same just listen to the tone of interviewers and count the interruptions when interviewing anyone from SNP even FM and compare to just about anyone else esp Tories who are given free rein. Well done though for great presentation -they can’t say they haven’t been told

  85. Graf Midgehunter says:

    Well done Kenny for showing the Beeb that the Indy side is getting stronger and willing to take a more serious stand by confronting their output and bias.

    I like the fact that the Beeb is increasingly being caught out. By forcing their blatent unionjackery/SNP-bad they’re getting on peoples nerves and helping to push folk towards Indy and backing for the SNP.

    On the other hand, if they try to be more balanced then Indy gets better publicity and the SNP will be seen to be doing a good job..!

    Either way the Beeb has a problem. 🙂

  86. Jockanese Wind Talker says:

    “Wullie demands that the S.N.P. drop inderef2 in order for them (the libdems) to support the budget!!!!!.” @Albaman says at 9:35 am

    Aye, I saw that.

    What Wee Wullie 1p fails to realise is that his party is an irrelevance not just in Scotland but the UK.

    The Party of the proven liar.

    He supports a ‘peoples vote on the final Brexit deal’ (a peoples vote = a referendum).

    He opposes a second Scottish Independence referendum (despite the material change of Brexit, despite the failure to deliver the promises his and the other British Nationalist parties made to win IndyRef1).

    Wee Wullie 1p would be advised to realise that the Scots People are Sovereign and as such we:

    Elected Scots Govt with a mandate to hold a second Indy Ref.

    This mandate has been ‘triple locked’ by The previous votes of the Sovereign People of Scotland.

    Wullie is just highlighting that the FibDems are neither Liberal nor are they Democrats.

  87. Albert Herring says:

    You might have brought up the issue of comments on political web articles being disallowed only in Scotland.

    Missed a trick there as it’s completely indefensible.

  88. Gordie says:

    I respect your efforts certainly but don’t accept the premise that there is no intentional or organised campaign in favour of the union within the BBC.

    Bias is one thing but there are many other ways it fails miserably.

    Are we really saying that the BBC as an organisation or through the work it produces reflects or reports accurately life in Scotland, England or Wales?

    It would be better if we put the license fee in a pot and our artists to apply for money from it.

    It is a colonial organisation rank with arrogance and entitlement. IT HAS TO GO.

  89. galamcennalath says:

    Tinto Chiel says:

    full of nice landed gentry and happy peasants/yeomen

    Our fundamental problem is we just don’t know our place nor accept our station in the scheme of things. 🙂

    And we won’t be settling down any time soon!

  90. Dan Huil says:

    Eternal credit to Kenny and Dave for tackling bbc bias face on.

    Kenny says, “We can only hope that meaningful action will be forthcoming.”

    Nothing wrong with hoping. How “forthcoming”? Who knows. Really “meaningful”? To whom?

    I’m still boycotting the bbc and other britnat media. Nothing will change until Scotland regains its independence.

  91. Ken500 says:

    The BBC will never change controlled by Westminster. Westminster propaganda service worldwide. Culpable.

    Greg Dyke got the sack for trying to tell the truth.

    Overpaid, condescending, prima donnas who think they are the news.

    No hope. Half their budget goes on land estate. Empire building.

  92. Cod says:

    So, this is probably gonna upset some people, and perhaps have some people who haven’t been alive for as long as I’ve been advocating for independence accusing me of all sorts of nonsense, but I’ll say it anyway:

    I don’t think BBC Scotland is inherently anti-independence. I think the management of BBC overall, is, indeed, anti-independence, and that attitude, almost inevitably, trickles down – after all, when someone pays your wages and makes decisions about your employment and your funding, it’s difficult to argue with them.

    I think there are a number of people within BBC Scotland who do not support independence. However,I believe that there are as many who do. After all, the national split on the question was 50-50, and there’s no real reason to believe it’s any different with BBC Scotland employees.

    I think we have to be careful of cultivating an extremist us-vs-them mentality, because once both sides are in a bunker, it’s hard to have any meaningful conversation. That’s why efforts like this are a good thing.

    I mean, yes, protests at the BBC can help, a little, but talking and negotiation almost always work better. Letting the BBC hierarchy in Scotland know, in a polite but firm and rational manner, that there are a lot of things they could be doing better, is a good thing. Suggesting independent analysis is a brilliant idea – it removes the biases of both sides, whether confirmation or cognitive.

    It should also be remembered that, under the current structure, it is almost as difficult for BBC Scotland to be genuinely autonomous from BBC UK as it is for Scottish Labour to be anything more than a branch office for UK Labour on most issues. I imagine that grates on many BBC Scotland staff as much as it would anyone else, and to be labelled as ("Tractor" - Ed)s and ("Quizmaster" - Ed)s,and other emotive language isn’t going to help.

    It shouldn’t need said, but it should be remembered, that BBC Scotland is not 6 people in an office, it’s an organisation with a whole lot of people, not all of whom are virulently anti-anything, and many of whom, even in management, genuinely want to be doing a good job, or even a better job, and who may well be willing to listen.

  93. Ken500 says:

    Outlander is on More 4 every Thursday 9pm. The books are good.

    ‘Shetland’ is seemingly increasing visitors.

  94. Gordie says:

    To MR Hookes and Mr MCbride
    “Training Day says:
    8 September, 2018 at 11:29 am
    No conspiracy? Really? Are we really stuck this far in the foothills of understanding about what the BBC is? After everything they have done to damage, subvert, undermine Scottish self-determination?

    Sorry guys, but you can’t placate this Beast. In fact, they now have the ammunition to say they’ve ‘consulted’ with independence supporters and feign a willingness to change while continuing to be as devious and mendacious as before.”

    This is surely the truth of it?

  95. robertknight says:

    Good effort, but actions carry more weight than tea and an outwardly sympathetic ear on the part of the BBC.

    There may not be a policy of anti-Indy bias at the BBC, (they wouldn’t be stupid enough to put it in writing), but there certainly exists a culture of anti-Indy bias.

    It may comprise a nod and a wink between editors, producers, presenters, etc., but you’d have to be in a coma not to notice it filtering through to the end product.

  96. Naina Tal says:

    Biggest problem is their recruitment policy. If you employ only Unionists acceptable to MI5 what do you get? BBC!

    Poor buggers Cannae help themselves. They Dinnae ken oany better.

  97. Valerie says:

    I genuinely admire you both, for getting off your backside, unlike others, and trying to change something.

    I do see the BBC as a BRitnat supertanker, so not holding my breath, HOWEVER, the GERS correction is true, and we must surely have to admit, after many years, the Gers stuff died down quicker this year.

    I think sometimes people do have to see the that the Indy support, has genuinely tried, by meeting like this, to address the issues. You have put down a marker, that can be important, to vocalise issues as clearly as you have done.

    Well done, guys.

  98. Scott says:

    Congratulations to you both right to the heart of things I only hope you showed them the video Protecting Ruth Davidson they could not dispute that.

  99. Robert Peffers says:


    Today, I rather slept in and woke at 08:AM. I had breakfast and, at 11:16 AM, I went to check if the postie had delivered anything. The postie hadn’t but there was a hand delivered communication behind the door.

    It came from, “Officer 528610”, and was dated and timed as 7/9/18 @17:50.- I have not been outside my home for over a week and at 17:50 on 7/0/18 would most likely been have been either cooking or eating my evening meal. Note that the communication does not state what his Officer 568610 is an officer of or from.

    The communication is not addressed to anyone in particular and does not even have the usual, “To the legal Occupier”, included. On the back of the folded communication it says, “Please open straight away. So I did.

    At the top right of the unfolded communication there is a small icon thing by the

    This is inside the folded and gummed communication and is the first indication of who the cold caller at my property was and now comes the illegal threats and presumption of criminality by TV Licensing. for it begins, “I visited you today to help you to start watching TV Legally”.

    It thus presumes I was guilty of watching TV illegally. This is followed by several paragraphs couched in similar illegally threatening terms.

    It then, amusingly, tells me how I can avoid the penalties for not wanting to watch live TV broadcasts even although I am well over 75 years old and wouldn’t watch live TV even if the Westminster Establishment and the BBC were to offer to pay me £150 to watch it.

    Now, to the very best of my knowledge, there is no statutory requirement that says I must communicate in any way with the BBC or the BBC’s appointed CAPTA run Licensing enforcers. No statutory requirement that you need a TV licence to own a TV set used as a monitor or to access the internet or other services. non broadcast services.

    However, under Scots law there are laws against coercion and specifically against using the treat of legal action to coerce someone to part with money or he offender otherwise gaining from such threats of legal action.

    Perhaps it has reached the stage where I need to bring the attention of Police Scotland to these apparently criminal, “Officers”, who masquerade as if they are some form of official Law Enforcement set-up like Police Scotland or Court Bailiffs.

    In any case why did this operative, claiming to be a law enforcement, “Officer”, shove a communication through my letterbox when I was most likely sitting either listening to a radio broadcast, accessing the internet or playing a computer game less than four feet away from my letter box?

    There is a bay window clearly showing the TV set mounted on my Living room wall at the time the, “Officer”, was stuffing the threatening letter that assumed me guilty of criminality through my letter box?

    Would the Officer, and apparently they never come singly, have just shoved the letter through the letter box if they had observed me actually breaking the law? I think not and believe I would have had to face several such officers who would then have attempted to have me admit to criminal activities as they have no rights to arrest or charge anyone with anything.

    I’m rather disappointed that they did not wait to confront me with their illegal threats – I’ve so been looking forward to calling Police Scotland to deal with alleged coercion.

  100. HYUFD says:

    Jockanese Wind Talker The Scotland Act 2016 was intended to deliver the changes promised in indyref1

  101. gregor says:

    Winifred Mccartney, I hope BBC’s sinister efforts to slience and contain you has inspired you to put even more effort into holding the corrupt to account.

    Publicly unaccountable BBC rogue has certainly inspired me.

  102. galamcennalath says:

    Jockanese Wind Talker says:

    Wee Wullie 1p …. supports a ‘peoples vote on the final Brexit deal’ (a peoples vote = a referendum).

    He opposes a second Scottish Independence referendum (despite the material change of Brexit, despite the failure to deliver the promises his and the other British Nationalist parties made to win IndyRef1).

    That really really annoys me! Astonishing hypocrisy. Double standard. Their Britain is special, while they see Scotland as nothing more than a resource. They believe what applies to their UK, need not apply to Scotland.


    I also don’t like this ‘People’s Vote’ idea. They headline it as a test of some mythical final deal. It isn’t, it’s just a callous attempt to rerun the same EURef and get a different result.

    Nothing has changed since EURef, literally. That is in total contrast to IndyRef1 where everything has now changed. We don’t want a re-run, we what a democratic appraisal of where Scotland is now, which is a totally different place.

    England voted to leave the EU, it should be allowed to do so. They need to get on with it.

    Scotland and NI voted to remain, so we now need referendums to decide whether we remain close to the EU by parting company with England, or we move with England in the post Brexit world.

    Those referendums need to be for Scotland and NI to decide without interference from WM. England should not be allowed to campaign in our referendums to decide our future. England has no right to try to keep their Greater England / UK construct after their Brexit decision.

  103. george wood says:

    “First Minister Nicola Sturgeon shelved plans for a second referendum after the SNP lost 21 seats in last year’s general election, with its share of the vote dropping from 50% to 37%.” (

    This is an lie from the BBC. The delay in the announcement about Indyref2 is because the Brexit outcome has been delayed.

    The mandate is for either a significant rise in Yes support or a material change from Westminster that is detrimental to Scotland. Neither has happened yet, though the material change one is looking like a certainty with the other to follow.

  104. tommythecommy says:

    So are we going to get the viewing/listening figures anytime soon?

  105. Iona says:

    Great piece of work. Thanks and very well done.

  106. Josef Ó Luain says:

    I’ll remain in the company of the cynics on this one, thank you. As has already been suggested: the BBC is impervious to any meaningful reform; its pathological bias will be revealed, for all to see, the very moment that Indyref 2 is announced.

    Nice try, but sorry …

  107. Famous15 says:

    I do KNOW that the BBC does not get the licence fee directly.

    HOWEVER there are two good reasons I stopped paying and told them why and was never bothered by them even though I still watched TV in clear defiance and hoped to be taken to court.

    1. It was cathartic.

    2.It sends a message. Oh yes it does.

  108. Shinty says:

    galamcennalath says @ 12.21pm
    “Those referendums need to be for Scotland and NI to decide without interference from WM. England should not be allowed to campaign in our referendums to decide our future. England has no right to try to keep their Greater England / UK construct after their Brexit decision”

    Totally agree.

    Not only will Westminster destroy Scotland, they will be fully aided by their branch offices in Scotland.

    The 19c quote comes to mind “Scotland Free or a Desert”

  109. Clapper57 says:

    Well done you. Well prepared and relevant points you summarised to highlight to them. Only by challenging them do we make them aware we are no longer willing to accept their one sided scrutiny imposed upon the Scottish government.

    To those of us who scrutinise their, BBC and at times STV, lack of objective reporting we are more than aware of critical points being omitted from their reports. Thus those who rely solely on information from MSM are left oblivious to crucially relevant facts and indeed crucial stories, of public interest, on opposing parties being ignored.

    We ALL need to continue to highlight these inconsistencies when identified as no section of the media should be above scrutiny.If we ignore them and allow them to continue then we truly do get the media we deserve.


    @ Jockanese Wind Talker @ 11.49am

    Yep JWT, however political blackmail pretty much is exactly what Rennie and his band of s**t stirrers are all about.

    One would have thought that it would have been more opportune to have asked for the SNP’s support on ,what is supposedly , a crucial cause for Lib Dems i.e. support for the people’s vote on final deal on Brexit as opposed to dropping Indy Ref2.

    It also seems as though Mr Rennie is acting solely on what will benefit his unionist cause as opposed to what will benefit the people of Scotland.

    This can be concluded since he only adds on this proviso based on not the actual substance of what is included in the budget itself but on the basis of the SNP agreeing to drop what is a major initiative of their party. Wow.

    However like all other Unionist parties at Holyrood they are, in public, in denial that they are running scared of the growing support for independence among the Scots in the wake of a no deal Brexit.

    Hopefully Rennie will be asked why choose second Indy ref option as opposed to support for People’s vote as a deal breaker in his party supporting the SNP budget….will not hold my breath but seems like an open goal to me for any ‘impartial’ journalist to challenge him on….say like one from the BBC !!!

    By the way JWT good post and well said.

  110. Dan Huil says:

    @Famous15 12:33pm

    Absolutely correct, Famous15. Well said. When I say “don’t pay the bbc tax” I know exactly what that means.

  111. North Chiel says:

    “ Nana@ 1101” re Paul Mason quote says it all really “ not since Iraq have I seen BBC news operating at propaganda strength like this”. The BBC were an utter disgrace during the 2014 campaign and since then I have not believed a word they say (home or abroad )as regards their 24 hour news output . BBC Scotland have to “ toe the line” of their “ London paymasters”.

  112. Lanarkist says:

    Great article, nice try, no coconut.
    Two things sum up the BBCSCOT. No right of reply on BBC website for Scots and the quiet dropping of PMQ on Wednesdays. We longer hear from our representation in Westminster live, all filtered through quotes and sound bites.
    The disparity in budget allocation and production damages our media industry and suffocates future media development.
    The BBC where you are should be created, produced and edited where we are across all mediums from news to drama.
    Beyond redemption!

  113. Capella says:

    @ Tinto Chiel – here is the quote. It’s from “Writing for the BBC” by Norman Longmate, an English author (Wikipedia) which I first came across in the 70s at college. None of the other “regions” gets this piece of advice. It was published from 1966 – 1988 but can still be found on Amazon from 1p.

    The National Regions
    BBC Scotland

    Historical costume drama is rarely required, as a stock of suitable scripts is already available, or will be produced by adaptations from books. Plays of a ‘home-spun’ kind, set in the countryside and depicting a life no longer lived in Scotland, will not be accepted. A major part of Scotland’s Drama output consists of plays, series and serials, intended for a network audience. A much smaller part of the Drama output is intended solely for a Scottish audience.

  114. Thepnr says:

    The BBC have an image problem and especially here in Scotland where it is least trusted percentage wise of the population. It also has the largest number of non-payers of the license fee, with almost twice as many non-payers as in Eng & Wales.

    I doubt you would have gotten anywhere near the front door if you had approached the BBC at any time prior to this year.

    The pressure is getting to them and I can’t help but feel this is more of a PR exercise for them than anything else as after all Ian Small is Head of Public Policy and Corporate Affairs at BBC Scotland and more than anything will be concerned about the BBC’s political image than anything else.

    I wanted to know more about the type of work a Public Policy Advisor for the BBC might do and found this job advert by the BBC with a closing date of March 2014.

    Job Introduction

    BBC Scotland is currently recruiting for a Public Policy Adviser to provide shrewd political and parliamentary intelligence, insight and advice to colleagues in BBC Scotland, particularly in relation to the upcoming Independence Referendum.

    Role Responsibility

    The Public Policy Adviser will liaise with colleagues in Public Policy & Corporate Affairs, Editorial Standards and Strategy, and pan-BBC as appropriate, to advise on key political and parliamentary issues while proactively monitoring and researching developments which impact on the BBC and on the wider media industry.

    As head of this department prior to the referendum in 2014 you have to assume that Ian Small and his department were responsible “to provide shrewd political and parliamentary intelligence, insight and advice” to the head of news and all programmes providing political coverage of the referendum.

    He is still in charge today and presumably providing much the same advice as he has always done. I’m not surprised then that he sought a meeting with Independence supporters as we all know what we think of the BBC’s political coverage in Scotland.

    He’s fire fighting, attempting to dampen the flames and deflect criticism, nothing more in my opinion. Credit to you both though for taking him up on the offer, at least when we see that little has changed we can at least say we tried.

  115. Davy says:

    Aye , the proof of the pudding is in the eating right enough.

    I hope the bbc realise that if this is a smoke-screen of their actual intentions. There will never be any meeting in the future where any-one will ever trust them again.

    Trust is earned, never just given.

  116. Ian Brotherhood says:

    It might be different if the meeting had been ‘secret’ but it wasn’t. David sought feedback and ideas on Twitter when he knew the meeting was in the offing.

    Unfortunately, he didn’t like Peter Bell telling him that it would be damaging to the Indy movement and give our enemies a stick to beat us with. David responded with a series of ill-tempered and vulgar messages which dismissed Peter’s concerns and attacked him personally. I registered my support for P Bell and pointed out to David that, while I couldn’t speak for others, he was certainly not representing me. (I’m not going to link to the Twitter exchange between David and Peter but the former must know that he was out of order.)

    Damage has already been done. Look at this thread alone – people who, for the most part, agree with one another are now at loggerheads. There has been a lot of back-patting here for Kenny and David but patronising them doesn’t help. The fact, unpleasant as it is, is that a split has been caused by this meeting and it’s as predictable as it was avoidable.

    David Hooks writes in today’s National:

    There are those in the independence movement who criticised even holding such a meeting – they demand devolution of all broadcasting powers or nothing.’

    A kind interpretation of that statement would be that it is a crafty debating point but it could also be viewed as a self-serving non-sequitur aimed at ‘othering’ the very people who have been at the forefront of demanding BBC accountability.

  117. Robert Peffers says:

    On the subject of BBC Bias there is no better example than that of the Nick Robinson lies that Alex Salmond, “Did not answer”, Nick Robinson’s questions during an SNP run News Conference for the World’s media during Indyref1.

    At that time I was actively running my own YouTube Channel but due to ill health I still have the channel but am no longer actively adding to it.

    Very, very soon after Nick Robinson lied on BBC TV that Alex Salmond had not answered his questions I had the following clip up on my channel and it is still there today:-

    It shows the actual SNP/SG International Press conference and also Nick Robinson’s edited footage of that Press Conference where Nick Robinson claims Alex Salmond did not answer.

    Look at it and draw your own conclusions. Salmond not only answered Robinson but did so at great length.

    Now a reputable broadcaster would have sacked Robinson on the spot but the BBC did not sack the liar – they promoted Robinson, (sideways).

    The liar is still a BBC employee and still lying to their paid, (via a government grant to the BBC), audiences. Not only that but Robinson and the BBC work a tax fiddle as Robinson has his own Production Company that the BBC purchases productions from.

    I only wish I could still do such videos but my health and mobility are very much reduced.

  118. grafter says:

    Nodding heads, taking notes, faux concern, will look into it, room for improvement, London’s fault, we are listening, appreciate what you say, etc. etc. etc.on and on it goes. Stop paying for this corrupt organisation. You have better things to spend your money on than wasting your time PAYING for BBC state propaganda.

  119. HYUFD says:

    George Wood It is increasingly likely May will agree the Withdrawal agreement in October with the EU + a BINO transition period that effectively keeps the UK in the single market and customs union up until 2021 as Chequers moved towards. Holyrood is then up for re election in 2021 + if Unionist parties win a majority of seats as some polls suggest indyref2 will be off the table for a decade

  120. marlon mcbrand says:

    As soon as I read that there was, “no great conspiracy”, I stopped reading. The UK establishment has survived for hundreds of years by absorbing or crushing their enemies. Bit of absorbing going on here.

  121. PictAtRandom says:

    ” Robert Peffers says:
    8 September, 2018 at 12:14 pm


    Today, I rather slept in and woke at 08:AM. I had breakfast and, at 11:16 AM, I went to check if the postie had delivered anything. The postie hadn’t but there was a hand delivered communication behind the door.

    It came from, “Officer 528610”, and was dated and timed as 7/9/18 @17:50.- I have not been outside my home for over a week and at 17:50 on 7/0/18 would most likely been have been either cooking or eating my evening meal. Note that the communication does not state what his Officer 568610 is an officer of or from…”

    Robert, something about that made me think of this. Put it in the plural and it may be more generally relevant to this thread:

  122. HYUFD says:

    Plus of course it was not just England that voted Leave, Wales voted Leave too

  123. JGedd says:

    It was very difficult to get to grips with Derek Bateman’s attitude to BBC bias. He chose to frame accusations of BBC bias as being about a simplistic representation of a cartoon conspiracy. He seemed adamant in his determination not to see what others were pointing out as being the kind of group-think that many of us have observed developing naturally in institutions.

    William Golding remarked years ago that you could learn everything you needed to know about human social behaviour by observing a school playground. Derek Bateman’s perspective seemed like that of Ralph in Lord of the Flies, someone who has not been been the target of bullying himself and therefore is unaware of it happening.

    Conspiracy is natural to human social behaviour, we just don’t call it that. The fact that a group of people can arrive at a consensus of behaviour without having a meeting about it or keeping minutes is natural to human behaviour. Most people can walk into a room full of people and correctly judge the temper of the room within a short time and is something we all take for granted. It is an intrinsic part of human evolution to try to be attuned to the thinking of others.

    It is insulting to those who believe from their own observation that there is obvious bias being demonstrated by BBC news, to portray those opinions as mad conspiracy theories of a cartoon nature.

  124. Meg merrilees says:

    Interesting to read about your attempt to open the eyes of the BBC.

    I don’t doubt that the men you spoke with perhaps have a sense of sympathy for our viewpoint but two men are not the BBC and as we know – much of what is broadcast on TV and Radio is London-centric and WM angled/dictated.

    This is ingrained and any change will take a long time to filter down.

    Let’s not forget that they did issue an apology over the GERS figures, which amazed us all, BUT the damage is already done in the headlines.

    It will be interesting moving forward to see if the ‘men in suits’ who represented the BBC at this meeting can effect any change – I’m not holding my breath and we all know pigs can’t fly but they just might one day !

  125. boris says:

    Important to be aware of Labour Party shenanigans from 1945. Will expand providing pen-pictures of some of the characters who still directly influence politics today.

  126. yesindyref2 says:

    One of the problems BBC Scotland has is that they claim to get complaints from “both sides”, therefore they must be doing it right.

    That’s utter garbage, even if they do get complaints from the other side as well, it’s the quality and fairness of the complaints they should be looking at, not the quantity.

    Complaints aren’t something you put in the scale pans os the public opinion balance.

  127. Liz g says:

    One thing that jumps out at me as a Winger is…
    Don’t bother with a FOI just phone me for the figures ye want!
    Isn’t that exactly what Wings DOSENT do, the Revs articles are linked to the documentation he is analysing.
    Some guy told me on the phone, is no much good here!
    The Rev is no “that” kind of journalist… and we don’t waste our time on gossip.
    We want checkable facts…
    Mibbi it would be mair in their line (BBC) to say they would try and improve the FOI process.
    But for that kind of assurance, I suppose we would need to be meeting with the organ grinder?

  128. manandboy says:

    The above article by Kenny McBride is as nothing compared to the mountain of evidence of bias by the discredited BBC.

    Are we supposed to set aside the six year full-blown propaganda war waged by the BBC against Scotland’s right to self-determination and the desire for Independence on the basis of a positive chat over tea and biscuits?

    The people who make up the BBC are not going to change. Part of their treachery is to make you believe that they are listening to you in a sympathetic manner. But it’s just part of their strategy.

    Anyone who believes otherwise is of no earthly use to the Independence movement.

    For the record, I don’t ever watch the BBC or any live TV broadcasting. I don’t have a TV licence. Giving up TV is one of the very best decisions my wife and I have ever made.

    Nowadays, I don’t have time to watch TV as I have too many things to do which are far more important.
    Watching TV is a waste of precious time.

  129. Skip_NC says:

    Stu, I assume you have offered the BBC right of reply to this. I look forward to reading their perspective of the meeting and their action plan, especially if Slacker Cairns is off again next Saturday.

  130. Thepnr says:

    Ian Small was given free reign to put his point of view surrounding BBC bias in an article for The Scotsman less than 3 weeks ago.

    It was a very long article in which he never budged an inch towards admitting that there is any kind of pro-Unionist or pro-Tory bias at play in the BBC.

    He highlights “fake news” and instantly links it to social media, then plays the victim

    “Indeed, as a broadcaster, we are often the subject (some might say ‘target‘) of much of the discourse, with questions regularly asked of our impartiality and independence.”

    He continues with a swipe at Lesley Riddoch over the media coverage of the Wings youtube channel being taken down. stating:

    “If Lesley is to be believed, I’m surprised anyone, anywhere, is now watching or listening to BBC programmes! But then again, if we are so busy manipulating our news content in favour of one cause or another, maybe we just haven’t noticed that there’s no-one out there consuming it…”

    He goes on to tell us that audiences of the BBC “value it as a trusted and authoritative voice” before having another swipe at Lesley Riddoch, a swipe totally unjustified as she was no doubt right in what she said in her article.

    “It took BBC political correspondent Nick Eardley to point out to her, on Twitter, that she was wrong – we had reported on them, extensively, and often in stories leading our bulletins on TV, on radio and online (though Lesley’s counter argument to Nick, on Twitter, that “website reports are not broadcasting” does seem at odds with the digital world in which we all live).”

    Weaselly words implying equality between broadcasting on say Reporting Scotland and putting an article on the BBC website because we all live in the digital world now, don’tcha know.

    He finishes by telling us that during the demonstration at PQ

    “We offered to talk. That offer still stands. We want to engage, constructively, in dialogue with those who question our journalism or are suspicious of our decision-making.”

    Sure he wanted to talk as no doubt he is keen to try and quantify the amount of damage already existing and how he can combat that, not for viewers of course but for the BBC.

    We’ll see what impact if any the meeting has had in coming months, I can only speak for myself but my expectations are not high.

  131. Confused says:

    At least you tried. Kudos for that.

    There may be “no grand conspiracy” because someone MUCH HIGHER up the foodchain, down in THAT-LONDON just says “THIS IS HOW IT IS”.

    There is also no need to conspire when everyone believes in the same thing, has the same objectives, comes from the same social class and educational background. At the higher decision making levels of the BBC, NO-ONE gets anywhere near unless they are “reliable” AKA “a safe pair of hands” – ONE OF US. They already all think the same way – Scottish Independence is almost literally “unthinkable” and can only be conceptualised as an “existential threat”.

    The BBC is the WORLD’S BEST state propaganda outfit, far superior to anything else on the planet. Orwell based his Ministry of Truth on it, after all. It’s what all that one on one Oxford tutoring was about, all that incessant essay writing steeped in sophistry, replete with every Schopenhaurian rhetorical technique and fallacy – it’s 3 times more expensive than any other university, but you get what you pay for at the end – smooth operators.

    The internet threatens all of this, hence the recent purges on the “far right” “literally-hitler” “racists/homophobes” etc – WINGS shows just what one guy with a website can do.

    Overall, these guys just -gently- … wanked you off a little a bit. Which is what I would expect. Did you get them to commit to ONE CONCRETE thing?


  132. Nana says:

    Prof John quotes Spike Milligan
    ‘Blessed are the cracked, for they let in the light’

    The trouble with the bbc is, they don’t want light shining on them.

  133. yesindyref2 says:

    Good analysis.

    I made a point in The National that small businesses get better by listenting to customers complaining, rather than instantly denying the complaints “We’re perfect”. Most of the improvements I put in over the years are from customer complaints or suggestions. They after all are the users of my business and the websites.

    Mmm, and the more the merrier …

  134. Bill Glen says:

    One slight Problem, Like many They Took the BBC On their Word About the Invitation given to the Event organizers at the BBC Event,, What they never Reported Was that We Never Refused the Offer to Talk, We countered with an Offer For them to Come outside, And we could talk On Camera (Livestream) They refused, But as Usual, Failed to Mention it in Their Headline Story,, We are holding Another BBC Event on the 27th of this Month, The same Offer will be Put to them, Come see for Yourselves

  135. Robert Peffers says:

    I’ve posted on this matter before but perhaps been over technical so here’s a non-tech version.

    In the 1920s there were no wireless broadcasters and that meant there were no companies making Wireless broadcast receivers. The public couldn’t listen to wireless stations because there were no wireless broadcast station and the only people sending wireless signals were Radio Amateurs who mainly used Morse Code to speak to each other but sometimes in a small network of Hams who took turns at transmitting while the rest of the net listened.

    However, “Hams”, mainly designed and built their own equipment to both send and receive wireless signals. So some of the more knowledgeable Hams had started to make wireless transmitters and receivers to sell to other less knowledgeable Hams but that market was very small and their products very easy to copy. These more knowledgeable Hams included such as Guglielmo Marconi, Thomas Edison, Phillips and Murphy but these were not wireless broadcast receiver makers. They mate Ham wireless sets and some were making sets for the military and shipping companies.

    In an effort to make the wireless equipment into a good commercially viable business model these early manufacturers needed a larger public market and that required they were not sending Morse code, or talking to each, other but news and entertainment and to thus, “broadcast”, programmes rather just establish communications among themselves.

    Marconi then built the very first. in June 1912, purpose-built radio factory at New Street Works in Chelmsford, England.

    Then began the very first regular wireless entertainment in the World:-

    “2MT was the first British radio station to make regular entertainment broadcasts, and the world’s first regular wireless broadcast for entertainment. Transmissions began on 14 February 1922 from an ex-Army hut next to the Marconi laboratories at Writtle, near Chelmsford in Essex. Initially the station only had 200 watts and transmitted on 700m (428 kHz) on Tuesdays from 2000 to 2030.”

    As stated the idea was to get the public to buy wireless sets and that needed wireless broadcasts from Wireless Stations. Soon these early would be wireless set manufacturers had got together and formed a private corporation that they called and registered at Companies House as, “The British Broadcasting Corporation”, The BBC was born.

    This soon startled the Westminster Establishment who saw the very obvious use of Wireless Broadcasting for propaganda and who, in any case already issued licences, (Government permission), to both send and receive wireless transmissions to Amateur operators.

    Westminster then did their well tried method of taking over such private companies, (such as the Bank of England), by granting the Wireless set Makers of the BBC a Royal Warrant and funding the still cash strapped BBC with an agreed annual grant. This led to a new wireless station in London with the call sign 2LO and the Westminster’s World’s first, state funded propaganda wireless broadcaster was born.

    So there is the real truth of how the BBC became the Westminster Propaganda wing that it remains so to this very day.

    I’ll leave it to Wingers whether they can be bothered checking the facts and leave them to decide if what I have posted is, or is not, the real facts.

    Have a nice independence for Scotland day, Wingers.

  136. frogesque says:

    To Wee Willy 1p (love that tag by the way!)

    The SG’s proposed budget is either acceptable or not on its own merit.

    Support or otherwise should never, ever be conditional on other factors such as Indy.

    What the Liedem yellow Tory band are saying is we don’t care if a crap budget is produced, we will support it if Indyref2 is dropped.

    News flash! Fuck off! Our Government under the SNP is better than that.

  137. Tinto Chiel says:

    @Capella 12.24: thanks for the fuller quotation from the BBC’s advice to writers in Scotland. I remembered you had mentioned this pamphlet a few years ago but unfortunately I didn’t note it at the time. I think Grouse Beater, who knows full well the situation in BBC Scotland, has also referred to it.

    On the BBC Tax, the Establishment will always finance the BBC to churn out state propaganda irrespective of the number of people switching off, tuning out and refusing to pay but what really, really worries it is that the BBC’s capacity to influence the population is diminished every time an individual refuses to pay to be lied to and stops watching.

    Paradoxically, I will always be grateful to Nick Robinson for his telling of that egregious whopper about Alex Salmond, which Robert Peffers posted above. That was the moment that all my quizzical misgivings about the state broadcaster were finally concentrated into a blinding moment of realisation that it lies and distorts on a daily basis but I had been too naïve and trusting before to see it.

    As Bugs used to say, “What a maroon!”

    *shakes head ruefully*.

  138. Dr Jim says:

    If the EU decided on holding a referendum how would they do it and who would win
    Well each country would vote Yay or Nay to a proposition then all decisions would be counted and a resolution found and voted on for those countries who held a minority of the overall vote by country NOT by population

    But in this disunited kingdom that kind of democracy doesn’t exist, in this disunited kingdom there are no countries there is only majority rule of one country, England, by weight of population when it comes to these things in exactly the same way they run their first past the post parliament in order to exclude opinion and not include opinion

    The UK government only mention the constituent parts of the UK by name when they present themselves as caring about what those parts think when it suits their purposes, but for the purposes of power when they get it all relevence to these constituent parts ceases to figure in the UK governments future plans as illustrated clearly by the UK governments total exclusion of opinion from all of the constituent parts of the UK

    Two constituent parts of the UK clearly voted against leaving the EU, Scotland particularly by a huge majority but unlike the way the EU would have democratically proceeded in co-operation with the situation the UK England government proceeded on the basis of *might is right and there’s more of us* in that moment the UK England government ceased to pretend we were in a Union of 4 constituent parts and openly crowned themselves Dictators of the islands of Britain and that is and never will be acceptable to me nor should it be for any self respecting Briton in whichever part of these islands you might inhabit

    For it means that no matter the problem no matter the situation no matter the circumstance whoever is in government in England can in fact do anything they choose whenever they choose with whoever they choose and post Brexit the Tories will wield that power like no other government in history has ever done before

    Wales is done for they have no chance of resisting anything done to them in the future because they just don’t unfortunately for them have the power to put up a fight
    Northern Ireland will almost certainly rejoin the Republic of Ireland even though the sectarianists despise each other they still have an overwhelming inborn hatred of the threat of direct rule from a Tory westminster government and pragmatism will likely result in that being the decision they’ll take

    Scotland however is completely different to the other two constituent parts of this disunited Union because we as a country are bursting at the seams with potential and we’re a prime country for investment from far and wide plus the EU just loves Scotland, and why wouldn’t they we’ve got the lot and they would bite their own arms off to negotiate a deal with an Independent Scotland

    But this time Scotlands government and not Englands government would be doing the negotiating to make Scotland the envy of the world unlike Englands efforts in succeeding to make England the laughing stock of it

    Scotland doesn’t need any more of Englands self harming to please Jacob Reese Mogg and his Nasty Party chums and we don’t need the other English political party hangers on (Labour Lib Dem) to help them do it

    Let’s clog up the streets of Edinburgh but not with a few thousand people, many many many thousands and let the rest of Scotland see

    We say YES to Independence and we’re saying it damn loudly

  139. Ian Brotherhood says:

    @Thepnr –

    “We offered to talk. That offer still stands. We want to engage, constructively, in dialogue with those who question our journalism or are suspicious of our decision-making.”

    That makes him sound like someone with clout. He isn’t. Anyone who heard him on the Beattie Media Review with Eamonn O’Neill and Anna Burnside knows that he was completely blindsided by the whole WOS/YT debacle. It doesn’t matter what pronouncements he makes or who he invites into PQ for a cosy chat.

    But now? He can, hand-on-heart, tell the bosses in London (i.e. those who had Wings and Peter Curran’s YT channels taken down) that he has engaged with the troublesome sweaty socks and placated them.

    This is a serious own-goal by two of our own – I don’t doubt that David and Kenny thought they were doing something worthwhile but they chose to ignore warnings from people who have a lot more experience than them. I hope they’ll be big enough to admit that they’ve made a mistake.

  140. Jack Murphy says:

    We’ve been here before with the BBC in Scotland 🙁

    Here’s an article and short video from G A Ponsonby writing for Newsnet Scotland six years ago:

  141. Fireproofjim says:

    Sorry Ken. Outlander finished series two last Thursday. It will return next year. Yes it is a very good story. And has attracted thousands of fans to Scotland.

  142. TheBuchanLoony says:

    The simple bottom line is that, at least, 45% of political(and some other) programmes should be of a pro-independence nature. Can anybody name me one pro-independence BBC programme? Past or present.

  143. yesindyref2 says:

    I read a lot of books when I was younger, usual stuff, torch under the bedclothes, and maybe half of them were about war.

    And running through many of the books, both fact and fiction, was the part played by the BBC during the whole of the Second World War. Not just in providing messages to resistance movements, but also directly in a morale-boosting propaganda exercise.

    The morale after Dunkirk in the army and the civilian population was rock bottom. Had Hitler had the courage to have invaded immediately, he would have found a shambles, the BEF for instance had left most of its equipment in France.

    So the BBC bit by bit built up the morale, to the extent that it wasn’t long before Dunkirk was regarded as a victory, not the defeat it militarily was.

    Well, I’m sure most of us would approve the use of the BBC for that propaganda purpose, the problem is that in my opinion IT NEVER STOPPED. Specially through the Cold War.

  144. Arabs for Independence says:

    Well done for arranging a meeting and thank you for putting the points over.

    As regards to “probably no grand conspiracy”, I’m not sure about that. There are dozens of examples/instances and to that end I remind myself of what the BBC did to a John Swinney photograph where they doctored his photo to make him look like he was giving a Nazi salute. They also put the image in black and white and turned the SNP logo around to look like a swastika.

    So well done lads for your excellent efforts but don’t think there is no conspiracy – there is evidence everywhere.

  145. Terry says:


    The utter pish you post gets worse as every day passes.

    You sure are taking your time is “passing through”.

    I know a shortcut and it will get you out of our lives all the quicker.

    Take a hike little englander.

    We will win our Independence despite wee establishment plants like you trying to get in our way.

  146. Robert J. Sutherland says:

    I might take the “People’s Vote” prospectus seriously if its promoters were prepared to incorporate a core requirement that a different result in Scotland and England would automatically sever the Union. (Since there is no fair and reasonable way to negotiate such a fundamental impasse.)

    Would they agree to that eminently simple democratic proviso?

    Fat chance, the pseudo-democrats.

  147. Sunniva says:

    Excellent work! Well done indeed. Thanks guys.

  148. galamcennalath says:

    TheBuchanLoony says:

    political(and some other) programmes should be of a pro-independence nature

    Agreed, that would be balance.

    I think the current situation is a mix of three things …
    – intentional anti Scottish/SG/SNP/Indy bias
    – intentional pro UK/Union bias
    – and, UNINTENTIONAL England bias

    They just can’t help themselves in many cases IMO. They almost certainly don’t consider the Englishness of much of their output as contributing to bias. The problem arises because for most in the London Bubble England=UK, England is the default while others deviate, English education and holidays are the norm, all English culture and practises are the norm while Scots ‘opt out’ for something different.

    They just don’t have the mindset of a Union, only a Greater England, and it’s all too late to change now!

    And by ‘they’ I include Scottish BritNats who themselves so often aspire to the ‘London standard’.

  149. galamcennalath says:

    Robert J. Sutherland says:

    a core requirement that a different result in Scotland and England would automatically sever the Union

    Indeed. We know there are only two possible outcomes…

    Scotland Remain England Leave
    Scotland Remain England Remain

    …. and the first leaves us in the same mess!

    Though, I suspect England will be 60% Remain on a rerun!

  150. Rock says:

    “We accepted, as Derek Bateman and others have said, that there’s probably no grand conspiracy to denigrate independence, its supporters, the SNP and Scotland”

    If you accepted that, you have zero credibility.

    The BBC is Scotland’s enemy number one.

    There IS and always has been a “grand conspiracy to denigrate independence, its supporters, the SNP and Scotland”

    Zero benefit to the independence cause in “engaging” with the most dishonest entity in the world.

    (I am a Wings reader. This is his personal experience and view.)

  151. yesindyref2 says:

    Even with that understanding of the BBC, and with increasingly some of the books I read being about history, it hadn’t really dawned on me the treatment Scotland got, way back in those years. The BBC portrayed Scotland as a “canny” country, with kilts, pipe, haggis – and sheep. Sport was always about England, the English football team, with Scotland rarely being covered.

    Programs – like the “history” books, portrayed the Scot as someone who went down to England to rape and pillage and loot, whereas the English Army bravely fought them off and went over the border to try to restore law and order and prevent the raids.

    And yet one of the most important campaigns in the Second World War, the denial of resources to resource-hungry Germany, was North Africa. Oil and rubber. And quite a few turning points were (in my opinion) engineered by the LRDG, with the likes of Tobruk being a nexus. The LRDG (SBS now SAS) was started by a somewhat undisciplinable and unruly guy called David Stirling. A Scot.

    I guess I’d subconciously noticed all this, and like some, many perhaps, grumbled about the coverage Scotland got in both news programs and even documentaries. But like all subtle propaganda, it just goes in under the surface without being noticed. I wasn’t that interested in politics, and this included Independence, that was of course just a few extreme nutcases.

    It wasn’t until 1972 that someone just pointed out the way Scotland was treated and the way the media treated Scotland, and it just clicked. Probably within hours, maybe even minutes, I became an Independence supporter.

    The thing is that these attiutudes are, as Salmond said, institutional. But not just in the BBC, but in most of England with perhaps the exception of the North. And it STILL IS, even after all these years, devolution and an independence referendum to boot. It will probably be the same in 200 years, there’s no will in the UK to change it.

    The only way Scotland won’t be put down by a UK Government, a UK Parliament, the BBC and all media, is to stand fully on our own two feet, to be a country in our own full right, to be Independent.

  152. starlaw says:

    The Union is already severed, Scottish politicians have no place in Westminster unless they serve English parties. Other Scottish M.P.s are not allowed to speak without a rumpus of cat calling dog woofing and donkey braying in the background. They have not been allowed a single word at the Brexit debate, are limited in what they are allowed to speak on. etc. etc. we all know the story. England has withdrawn from the Treaty of Union, to create their second Empire and Scotland has been made Colony No 1.

    Do you wish to stay.

  153. Although l commend your efforts you are wasting your time they will never give an inch they hate us pure and simple OT their seems to be a policy that the tv dramas must have so many coloured and disabled actors in them to represent the percentage of the population but no such requirement to have a proportion of Irish Scots or Welsh actors in them is that not racial discrimination ???

  154. yesindyref2 says:

    Even with that understanding of the BBC, and with increasingly some of the books I read being about history, it hadn’t really dawned on me the treatment Scotland got, way back in those years. The BBC portrayed Scotland as a “canny” country, with kilts, pipe, haggis – and sheep. Sport was always about England, the English football team, with Scotland rarely being covered.

    Programs – like the “history” books, portrayed the Scot as someone who went down to England to r*pe and pillage and loot, whereas the English Army bravely fought them off and went over the border to try to restore law and order and prevent the raids.

    And yet one of the most important campaigns in the Second World War, the denial of resources to resource-hungry Germany, was North Africa. Oil and rubber. And quite a few turning points were (in my opinion) engineered by the LRDG, with the likes of Tobruk being a nexus. The LRDG (SBS now SAS) was started by a somewhat undisciplinable and unruly guy called David Stirling. A Scot.

    I guess I’d subconciously noticed all this, and like some, many perhaps, grumbled about the coverage Scotland got in both news programs and even documentaries. But like all subtle propaganda, it just goes in under the surface without being noticed. I wasn’t that interested in politics, and this included Independence, that was of course just a few extreme nutcases.

    It wasn’t until 1972 that someone just pointed out the way Scotland was treated and the way the media treated Scotland, and it just clicked. Probably within hours, maybe even minutes, I became an Independence supporter.

    The thing is that these attiutudes are, as Salmond said, institutional. But not just in the BBC, but in most of England with perhaps the exception of the North. And it STILL IS, even after all these years, devolution and an independence referendum to boot. It will probably be the same in 200 years, there’s no will in the UK to change it.

    The only way Scotland won’t be put down by a UK Government, a UK Parliament, the BBC and all media, is to stand fully on our own two feet, to be a country in our own full right, to be Independent.

    (Jings, I just noticed the r*pe word in the original!) Hope this gets through.

  155. Capella says:

    @ Ian Brotherhood – I get it. But IMO there’s no blame in a bona fides attempt to put the case. I’m as cynical about the BBC now as I ever was – every time I happen to hear it. Trust is gone, the propaganda has lost it’s power of persuasion, and that’s what counts.

    If the BBC transforms into a genuine public service national broadcasting organisation, accurately reflcting the broad range of Scottish political, cultural and social reality, then I’ll start taking it seriously.

    In the meantime I rely on WoS and co for news, current affairs and entertainment.

  156. K1 says:

    ‘This part of the discussion covered several different topics from different angles, including interviewing styles, story framing, headline selection, running orders, accuracy and unequal treatment of each side of the constitutional debate.

    Unsurprisingly, this was when our hosts became most defensive.’

    The part they were most defensive about is the part that is so obviously true. In fact in David Hooks own video this is entirely what he was on about?

    Anyone falling for the ‘we’re listening’ schtick from BBC is very naive. Great that the guys gave them a route in to the Indy movement, let the d&c games begin.


  157. stu mac says:

    @yesindyref2 says:
    8 September, 2018 at 1:26 pm
    One of the problems BBC Scotland has is that they claim to get complaints from “both sides”, therefore they must be doing it right.

    That’s utter garbage, even if they do get complaints from the other side as well, it’s the quality and fairness of the complaints they should be looking at, not the quantity.

    Another thing is that some (right wing) politicians want to push the BBC further in the direction of their own beliefs so will continue to complain no matter how right wing it gets. And it is pretty right wing these days. They’re not interested in fair reporting, only reporting that 100% agrees with their world view.

  158. tarisgal says:

    I think it’s to your credit you took them on at their own game. And it can now never be said you didn’t try to engage with them. I just don’t think it’s going to make one iota of difference. NOT ONE.

    They know all the tricks to manipulate the news but keeping it close enough to the truth so that they can deny manipulation. Their ability to stick to as close to the truth on any news item means they can also claim that they reported it ‘as said’ or ‘as done’… and that any manipulation was simply an oversight. No matter how much we cry “That isn’t what s/he said…”, “That isn’t what that report meant…”, “You only took out the bad bit but didn’t cover the excellent bit!” etc., they can say “S/he SAID those words…”, “The Report did say I just omitted…”, “The bad bit WAS in there and our job is to highlight that….” They know all the tricks & they use them to good effect. I think we need to be clear about this – THEY KNOW EXACTLY WHAT THEY ARE DOING. They know what tricks they’re using, they know when and how they are using them, and so to sit in front of you and pretend there is POSSIBLY ‘unconscious bias’ is just peddling more of the same nonsense they peddle in their news broadcasts. They are USING you.

    Sorry… I’m not buying it. There is NOTHING ‘unconscious’ about their bias or their understanding of what they do. And I’m not accepting the line ‘It’s come from London. It isn’t OUR fault”. Yep, it is as much their fault as anyone else’s. They get big bucks to come up here. London know the kind of people they are putting in charge & know they can relied on to do the job. You only have to check their background to know what they get paid for (have a look at Donalda’s and tell me I’m wrong). I’m afraid I don’t buy the fact ‘they aren’t allowed to make big decisions’…

    These people are PROFESSIONALS. They have spent YEARS AND YEARS being trained in how to use words, how to reframe words & ideas, how to nuance what they want, and how to talk to people (including yourselves), and have DONE IT FOR YEARS! They know how to use (and read) body language and facial expressions which would seem to indicate they are listening to you & taking on board all you are saying. All tried & tested techniques… Well yes, they ARE listening.

    They are taking on board your ability to see what they are about, that you are aware of their techniques they use to subliminally alter items in the news to reflect the position THEY want to headline. They know you, and most indy supporters are now aware of the manipulation and omission of words and editing of videos to remain close to the truth but to reflect a different picture than that which the words were SUPPOSED to represent. Soooo… what will they do with that knowledge (that you know how they operate)that they now have?

    Will they change things to reflect the truth of the news item better? Or will they continue to use their own techniques to manipulate the news items? Or will they just out and out lie, cheat and persuade now they know half of Scotland understands what they do? I think they’ll go by the premise that half of Scotland DON’T KNOW how they’re being manipulated. But – who knows? I do know – you don’t train people for years and years to manipulate the media – and then stop doing it because ‘the enemy’ knows what you’re up to. Sorry but I think that’s really unrealistic and totally naive to believe that.

    As to paying the TV license as a way of stopping them from broadcasting this government propaganda, I know that stopping the license doesn’t actually take pennies away from the BBC. However, if the govt are no longer raking in their usual huge lump of cash from this TV tax, it may be they aren’t so keen to hand over quite as big a lump to their propaganda unit, if it’s not proving to be so effective. It may be that some Scots are looking forward to seeing what the new news programs will feature, but I’d suggest that as half of Scotland are likely no longer paying the TV tax, it’s likely BBC aren’t going to support it very heavily.

    I can’t help wondering if you brought up the issue of BBC program spending in Scotland being very little in comparison to what Scots gave in License Fee payments?

    I’d also be interested if you brought to their attention the problems of BBC SCOTLAND online having no ‘right of reply’ while other regions & devolved nations DO have that right. Just seems strange that the nation pushing indy is the only one not to have that right.

    To be honest, in some way I think it’s good Indy people can say, ‘We TRIED to have dialogue with BBC’. Some say ‘you don’t get anywhere if you don’t talk’. True, that. But there is also the saying ‘you can talk till you’re blue in the face & it will make no difference’, meaning a COMPLETE WASTE OF TIME, not to mention effort. Now which scenario do I think will take precedence in this case? Well… I’m of the opinion BBC have NO INTENTION of changing. It would not help the UK government or their agenda one bit. They aren’t out to help Scotland, Scotgov, SNP or independence supporters. That’s just how it is, and no amount of talking will change that. Time to accept it and move on, I think.

  159. susan says:

    Nice try guys but pretty pointless really. The BBC is what it is and we will never get a fair crack of the whip.

  160. Fred says:

    Jackie Burd, if she bit her tongue she would poison herself! How does that wummin sleep at nights, what’s in it for her, apart from money?

  161. Capella says:

    Since football has been mentioned – it’s a disgrace that the national broadcaster does not broadcast the national team games live. How has this come about? Surely if there is a market failure it is the duty of the public service broadcaster to step in and fill the gap.

    I’m not interested in football myself and only pick up snippets of news about it on Wings. The SFA appear to have a lot to answer for and their appointments of team managers seems woeful.

    Nevertheless, as a service to football fans, I went through Wee Red Book list of Scotland / England matches 1873 – 1986. Of the 104 matches played (none during the war years) the results were:

    Scotland 40
    England 41
    Draws 23

    A creditable performance I would say.

  162. Craig P says:

    I stopped paying attention to the BBC years ago but well done for having a dialogue anyway. It’s an approach that is more likely to lead to positive action than just shouting slogans at them.

    When we are independent Scotland will still contain a massive amount of unionists and Britnats and they will have to be engaged with, not ghettoised.

  163. Robert J. Sutherland says:

    galamcennalath @ 15:06,

    You could of course conclude that the second likely result leaves us in another mess, just a more familiar one! =laugh=

    Which is why a straight “indy or no” proposition is far more relevant.

    (Though a concerted background pushback against Brexit is no bad thing, since in the end it won’t come to a vote and does us a favour by driving more and more people in Scotland to the obvious – if sometimes reluctant – conclusion that we have to get out of this historic UK-mismanaged guddle ASAP, for the sake of our sanity as well as our economic wellbeing.)

  164. Jockanese Wind Talker says:

    “The Scotland Act 2016 was intended to deliver the changes promised in indyref1” @HYUFD says at 12:17 pm

    Yes it was, but the BritNat Parties opposed all the promised powers via the Smith Commission.

    Do you think The Scotland Act 2016 delivered?


    Thanks @Clapper57 says at 12:37 pm

    Hope you are well today.

    Comments BTL on WOS keep me in a positive place knowing it is not just me who sees how f*cked things are but that we are on the way to change this and hopefully you do to.


    @Frogesque says at 2:17 pm

    Wee Willy 1p

    That’s ‘cos his solution for everything from Mental Health, to Education to everything is to demand the Scottish Government tax the Scottish Electorate by 1p.

  165. ts says:

    If you believe they will they will change for the better of Scotland your off your firking head..fools you if you believe this will happen…sad so so sad…

  166. Tackety Beets says:

    My first thought is to thank Kenny & Dave for their efforts in meeting Mr Small who as IB points out was out of touch on the JB show.

    As others have stated , sadly , this meeting will have NO CHANGE whatsoever. Why ? Because everyone at BBC are very well aware of our cries of bias already , yet the “fail to see it”

    To Kenny & Dave, I only see one way you make progress is to return to BBC Weekly / fortnightly / monthly with your reams of evidence. Return with new evidence which has occurred since your last visit etc etc

    It will be like hammering a nail into concrete, you have made the first hit but unless you continue with little taps the nail is gonna fall out. Ie Nothing will change.

    Lets not forget some of the recent “rants” on GMS , was someone speaking in their earpiece encouraging it or did they bring their personal view to the interview ?

    Visiting the BBC in the hope of change may be like ploughing the Tower Ridge on Ben Nevis in the hope of planting next years tatties.

    Then again sitting back & doing feck all won’t reap a crop either.

    BTW , my place is a TV free zone & my last letter to the TV Lic. mannie fae Dundee was ref my disgust that I stayed in all day & his “officer” never turned up.

    STV , folk tell me they are just as bad.

  167. Maria F says:

    I think your determination and effort by putting yourselves forward to attempt to make things better and to get a BBC more suitable for Scotland is very commendable and admirable.

    I cannot help but being pessimistic about the outcome, though. I firmly believe the changes we are going to see, if any, will be merely cosmetic and not near enough to the root of the problem: their inherent bias against Scotland as a nation. This is of course not because of your commendable intervention, time and energy invested on this, but because of the what the BBC itself is. It is an institutional thing: the BBC is an arm of the British establishment used to “glue” the “nation”. A British establishment that is blatantly anti Scotland as a nation that is unique, with its own culture, politics, society, roots and history; an establishment that is blatantly anti Scotland’s independence as an expression of Scotland’s people sovereignty and freedom of political opinion and as an acknowledgement of the accelerating divergence of the political trajectories that Scotland and England are pursuing; a British establishment that is blatantly anti SNP, which happens to be the political party elected by the people of Scotland to take the biggest share of the seats both in Holyrood and Westminster and the political party that symbolises the end of the union as an homogeneous state. The BBC keeps pedaling furiously against the current in Scotland and it will be rolled over and drowned sooner or later.

    I am afraid I do not longer trust the BBC and I do not think I want to waste any of my time giving them an opportunity to change because I do not trust they are willing to change sufficiently on time: I think it is an illusion of change what they are giving us, not a real one.

    I sincerely believe it is time now for Scotland to have its own fully devolved broadcasting. The BBC as a 21st century, post devolution “UK wide broadcaster” project, has failed. It is not longer fit for purpose because it is too inflexible and rigid to change with the times and to grow with the political views of the people of Scotland. It is time to move onto a better alternative, I think.

  168. Alan Crerar says:

    If there is some huge conspiracy at the BBC – it comes from beyond the very top, from those who recruit those at the very top.
    Noam Chomsky’s interview with Andrew Marr hit Marr squarely on the head with this…
    “I’m not saying you’re self censoring. I’m sure you believe everything you’re saying. But what I’m saying is that if you believed something different, you wouldn’t be sitting where you’re sitting.”

    Whole transcript here. Interesting, and relevant to this post…

  169. K1 says:

    If they want engagement with us, after we’re independent then they shouldn’t be ghettoising us now?

    We have plenty of journalists in Scotland working in, at the moment, online forums such as Wings. I see no reason why those who have been instrumental in showing up the BBC and the rest of the rotten to the core ‘old brigade’ msm in Scotland for what they are, shouldn’t take up key positions in our newly formed broadcasting set up?

    Couldn’t give one fuck for those who have literally spent years skewing, lying, distorting and ‘othering’ half of Scotland because of our constitutional choice! And they will not be in any position to ‘cry foul’ given it will be them who will have ‘lost their battle’ to keep us chained to this stinking ‘union’.

    Not for keeping any of that lot ‘on board’. They fucked themselves, we didn’t.

  170. Haggishunter says:

    Even people with little interest in politics don’t believe the BBC in Scotland.
    It’s widely seen a state propaganda service, anti Scottish, imperialistic with a single agenda to protect the British establishment

  171. Robert J. Sutherland says:

    After the last few years, I myself have become much more sceptical about any fundamental change in a London-driven BBC. It’s like the UK state in microcosm, run as if Britain=England with an occasional gracious (and often ignorant) nod to the periphery. Where is “BBC England”, for example?

    As to engaging with it, though, I can’t see why it wasn’t – and isn’t – worth trying. I have a lot of respect for Peter Bell, but no-one has the right to clamp down on any attempt, however unlikely it might be to succeed in any fundamental way.

    What best to do? Grumbling ineffectively from the sidelines seems the typical Scottish response. Far better to challenge the BBC where it hurts. Meeting up works both ways. Placing concrete measurable issues – eg. the flagrant contrast between the constant interruptions of SNP interviewees and the kid-glove fawning treatment of BritNat interviewees, and the total lopsidedness between its representation of the BritNat viewpoint as opposed to the independence one – straight to BBC reps puts them on the spot in a way that the complaints swamp never does. (After all, it does what it has evolved to do.) We don’t need to presume anything about BBC motives, we can all readily judge though how it responds.

    I believe the prime demand we should be making of the BBC now, by whatever means, is an independent review of balance in its treatment of the independence question, carried out by trusted neutral observers. If the BBC is so confident it is getting it fairly right, as it frequently claims, what does it have to lose?

  172. Clapper57 says:

    @ Jockanese Wind Talker @ 4.12pm

    Yep JWT, there is no pulling the wool over WOS contributors eyes, much to the frustration of those who do their best to frustrate us 24/7. Lol.

    We have almost reached the last hurdle and are more than wary of and wise to unionists bearing false gifts and broken promises al la… “bonanza of new powers”..” and pledges of “near federalism” and “home rule” etc etc.

    They know that we know that they know that we know. . BLOL .

    Have a great evening

  173. CmonIndy says:

    I’m glad you got your tea and biscuits from the two BBC Agents. In my opinion you will get nowt else. We will see.

  174. t42 says:

    im searching for the phone video of this meeting on youtube, strangely cant find it. how weird is that.

  175. Robert Louis says:

    Nothing will change. The BBC is directly funded and controlled by the English Government. Until the BBC in Scotland is directly funded by (and answerable to) Scots, nothing will change. At present, they answer to 10 Downing street. 10 Downing street pays their wages. Literally. It is that simple.

  176. Referendum1707 says:

    I think it was a good move to go in there and talk to them, if only because, as has been pointed out by others above, it now means that they can’t say that the pro indy people refused to.

    Other than that I hope that no one is going to be fooled by bbc scotchland’s protestations of innocence about bias and how they’re going to “look into it”. Obviously most comments above reflect that but for the few who think that “engagement” with the BRITISH brainwashing corporation is some kind of good idea I’d have to ask them “were you born yesterday?”

    Whether it’s an actual conspiracy or not doesn’t matter, what matters is that the bbc is there to do Scotland down, that’s it, that’s their agenda and nothing other than independence will ever get rid of them.

    The only reason I’d ever have to watch bbc scotland politics programmes would be if I somehow knew in advance that that worthless sack of shit Taylor or one of his fellow scumbags was going to have a heart attack live on tv.

  177. CameronB Brodie says:

    Do Mr. Small and his colleague Mr. MacLeod, posses the authority to amend the BBC’s royal Charter, specifically the duty of promoting social cohesion within the UK. If not, the critical realist in me tends towards disbelief.

    The BBC is the principle cultural vehicle for the dissemination of ‘truth’ in the UK. The BBC’s truth, that is. The BBC does not do cultural inclusiveness, it’s English culturalism all the way, directed for BBC HQ in London, of course.

  178. Graham A Fordyce says:

    Many thanks for taking the time and making the effort to meet with the BBC and express concerns which far too many of us share but feel powerless to do anything about. I hope you make a real difference.

  179. HYUFD says:

    Starlaw Are the English (and Welsh) proposing to recolonise India, much of Africa, Australia and New Zealand and North America because of Brexit? Of course not. So Brexit was not a vote to start a new Empire, indeed if anyone wants to create a new Empire it is the EU as only the EU realistically in Europe can challenge the USA and China as the superpowers of the 21st century.

    Plus of course given the Act of Union in 1707 was before US independence, before Quebec was captured, before Cook arrived in Australia, before Clive of India and the East India company had ensured it was the UK rather than France which would colonise India and before the 19th century Scramble for Africa Scots played as much a part in the British Empire as the English. As all the Scottish generals, merchants, explorers and colonial administrators working for the Empire proved

  180. Cubby says:

    Cod @12.10pm

    What a load of codswallop. The cringe is strong in you.

  181. CameronB Brodie says:

    In case folk didn’t notice, there was a revolution in Britain, in 1979. That’s when Thatcher consolidated neo-fascist neo-liberalism as the mode of government in Britain. Of course, “there is no alternative”.

    Cultural compliance and critical media studies

  182. HYUFD says:

    Jockanese Wind Talker

    The Scotland Act 2016 implemented the majority of the proposals put forward by the Smith Commission

  183. CameronB Brodie says:

    Don’t let these bureaucrats, who are essentially employed by the British state, pull the wool over your eyes.

    The Concept of Culture in Media Studies: A Critical Review of Academic Literature


    This study examines the way culture has been researched in media studies and suggests how critical intercultural communication could contribute to the field. A literature review was conducted and articles (N=114) published in peer-reviewed journals between 2003 and 2013 were collected. Results show that studies dealing with media and culture do not systematically define the concept of culture. Findings also indicate that culture is oftentimes taken for granted instead of being problematized and addressed as a source of struggle. Advantages of using a critical intercultural communication framework to examine culture are discussed.

  184. Clootie says:

    Well done for trying and I take nothing away from your effort by saying that I have little confidence in the BBC bias every being addressed.
    You tried but the state will not release control of their main propaganda tool at this critical phase.

  185. galamcennalath says:

    HYUFD says:

    The Scotland Act 2016 implemented the majority of the proposals put forward by the Smith Commission

    …. which fell far short of both the vast majority of the submissions to Smith and the expectations which justifiably arose from the ‘offers’ made to vote NO.

    The Smith Commission ONLY took on board the very limited powers the BritNat parties were willing to relinquish. Smith was an opportunity to actually deliver a Union of equal partners, it failed miserably.

    We are in the midst of this deep constitutional crisis because of Smith. If the EURef had provisions whereby any of the UK ‘partners’ wishes to remain could be honoured, we wouldn’t be where we are.

  186. Jockanese Wind Talker says:

    @HYUFD says at 5:18 pm
    Question I posed you was:

    Do you think The Scotland Act 2016 delivered?

    Well do you?

    or does HYUFD = Hi Ya FUD?

  187. Jockanese Wind Talker says:

    For the record Scotland doesn’t need a “Peoples vote (aka 2nd referendum) on Brexit.

    Our answer to that question was ignored for 2+ Years by the British Nationalists.

  188. caledonia says:

    Hmm think they will try and be a little more pro indy but only on the new channel they know older/most folk wont watch (sky are also NOT allowed to change order of some terrestrial channels)

    Then they will claim their output is 50/50

  189. Robert Kerr says:


    “The Scotland Act 2016 implemented the majority of the proposals put forward by the Smith Commission”

    Is that true or did you hear it from the BBC?

  190. Arthur thomson says:

    Well done guys for trying.

    The BBC will continue to be an agent for the Britnats.

    We can only hope that enough Scots have sufficient brain cells and sufficient dignity to recognise that the media are inveterate liars. No-one who genuinely cares about a better Scotland will be remotely influenced by them.

  191. Capella says:

    If you’re boycotting the BBC then you will have time to watch Chris Hedges – “America: The Farewell Tour”. A lot of interesting points raised about challenging the suffocating corporate state we all find ourselves in.

    Google, which owns YouTube, and Facebook, which owns Instagram, are busy altering algorithms to remove from searches any blog or news site which critcises the status quo. Edward Snowden and Julian Assange spelt it out a long time ago. Craig Murray and others have found traffic dropping dramatically in recent weeks.

    Meanwhile, the BBC donates millions to the yellow press to compensate for the loss of readership and income. But there is no conspiracy, just lies and mendacity.
    What is to be done? (to coin a phrase)

  192. Andy-B says:

    “Post Brexit England and Wales now have a different culture and identity than Scotland, an amicable divorce best for both.”


    I couldn’t agree more.

  193. Clapper57 says:

    Noticed lots of new posters on here today.

    Wonderful and you are most welcome.

    So to those of you who have taken the time to join in the Indy debate , especially those who are respectful of others opinions and seek only to make a valid point, and not to disrupt thread, it is great to read your comments.

    The more the merrier.

    Have a good evening

  194. SOG says:

    Sorry, I haven’t read all the comments.

    You deserve our gratitude for your efforts. I’d like to ask for a progress review in one month’s time, for instance to see if Corporal Davidson is asked about dark money, or some other topic that she’d prefer to avoid. And on her doorstep if she’s being evasive.

    Personally I’d given up on the BBC some years ago for other reasons, starting with Jimmy Savile.

  195. galamcennalath says:

    MSM all chanting in unison about the SNP backing an EURef2.

    What’s in it for Scotland!?

    Still, it’s an opportunity to make strong points about the absurdity of Scotland being dragged out, where our democratic wishes are ignored. We don’t want ANY Brexit.

  196. Maria F says:

    HYUFD says:
    8 September, 2018 at 5:18 pm

    “The Scotland Act 2016 implemented the majority of the proposals put forward by the Smith Commission”

    The first problem HYUFD is that in January 2017 the Supreme Court of England proved to us all that the Smith Commission was not worth the paper it was written on. So implementing its proposals is almost like building a house over foundations of cardboard. It is amazing how, at will, british nationalism and its arms can metamorphose innocuous, innocent words into dangerous hungry beasts when the control of Scotland’s precious assets by England is at risk.

    The Second problem HYUFD is that the Smith Commission did not even come close to what BTogether and its satellites promised us during the 2014 campaign. We were promised Devo Max, permanence of Holyrood and its independence from Westminster in devolved matters. We were promised to become the most devolved nation in the world. None of those were delivered in full, in fact they were not delivered at all. Furthermore, the move of the UK Parliament to steal 24 devolved powers from Holyrood without a mandate from Scotland or consent, to transfer onto England simply goes to prove just what the UK parliament and the UK government think of Smith Commission: a grain of sand on the road to step over when the need arises.

  197. galamcennalath says:

    EURef2, as most BritNat Remainers probably envisage it, would be merely another opportunity for Scotland’s wishes to be overruled by England!

    Scotland’s opinion on Brexit is known and won’t change.

    What we do want tested is our attitude to the UK Union in the light for all that has transpired in the last four years.

  198. ALANM says:

    @Arthur Thomson 5:56

    I always taken the view that a nation of people unable to see through the blatant propaganda pumped into their homes on a daily basis by the BBC is a nation of people unfit to govern itself.

  199. Robert Peffers says:

    @Famous15 says: 8 September, 2018 at 12:33 pm

    ” … I stopped paying and told them why and was never bothered by them even though I still watched TV in clear defiance and hoped to be taken to court.”

    You are, though, still missing the point, Famous 15. If you just ignore them and thus tell them nothing then they will keep sending you the threatening letters. This means they need to pay staff to do the, probably semi-automatic, office work. Then it cost then the price of the letters and their postage and then their investigative teams, wages, NHS stamps, dealing with the normal business of maintaining a working office. Travel to investigations, and so on.

    It keeps them out of the hair of the old, vulnerable and those for whatever reason get worried by such apparent people in, “authority”. I don’t give a damn for these so called, “Officers”, for I know that whatever kind of officer they claim to be it is most certainly not an officer of a law enforcement type. They cannot actually legally investigate you they have no more legal powers than you have to investigate them. They will even struggle to get a search warrant as the person who issues it needs names and evidence of an actual offence.

    There is no offence if you do not watch live video broadcasts and the simple fact that the BBC has no record of a licence not being issued to any certain address is only evidence that no one has applied for a licence for that address. It is not evidence someone at the address watches TV.

    You will be far more bother for both the BBC and CAPITA just simply by ignoring them. Don’t communicate with them and even if they turn up on your doorstep do not tell them who you are or if you do or do not watch live broadcasts.

    In any case do not be fooled that they will not start to bother you again. I initially informed then I did not require a TV licence and heard nothing from then for a time. Then the demands began. I might be wrong for I wasn’t counting but I believe it is around two years then they start bombarding you again.

  200. Sarah says:

    @Kenny McBride and David Hooks:
    Very many thanks for taking the time and trouble to prepare a thorough, detailed framework for your conversation with Ian Small etc.

    You can but try. There’s nothing to lose and there may be some improvement.

    And when Scotland has taken back control of full self-government it will be very satisfying to see our own public service broadcaster being built.

  201. Grouse Beater says:

    Your essential weekend reading

    The man who set the precedent for press and tv journalists to betray their basic principles for profit and preferment.

    ‘Defoe the Union spy’-

  202. Paul Wilson says:

    Sorry while you’re efforts should be applauded I along with many others now no longer have any faith in the BBC and quite frankly I don’t trust them. So I will not be watching the new channel as I want to see the BBC disbanded as in it’s present form it is only a tax on the less well off and isn’t fit for purpose.

  203. David Briggs says:

    I’ve cancelled their licence fee. Way too late chaps. Every single one is a nail in their coffin.

  204. Thepnr says:

    O/T Jamie Murray and his American partner Bethanie Mattek-Sands. have won the US Open mixed doubles. A title he also won last year.

    Jamie doesn’t always get the credit he deserves so a big well done from me anyway 🙂

  205. Valerie says:


    How disgusting is this? Sandra White has tweeted that there are no Saltires allowed into Proms on THe Green, just now.

    Of course, there are then two Butcher’s Aprons on display in her next tweet.

    In Glasgow???? FFS.

  206. Maria F says:

    galamcennalath says:
    8 September, 2018 at 6:33 pm

    “What’s in it for Scotland!?”

    1. Nothing. Scotland already voted to remain the first time round, so why should it be forced to vote again? This vote is for England and Wales to have, no Scotland.

    2. The pleasure of treated as England’s colony again. In such a vote Scotland will be forced again to vote as England’s region and if its vote does not agree with that of the majority of England, it will be overruled by a majority of England MPs again and any veto denied by a majority of England MPs. So why bother?

    3. Giving our Consent by the back door and without realising. The only thing that this vote will do for Scotland is to legitimise a brexit Scotland voted decisively against. Scotland has not given consent for brexit or for triggering A50, therefore Scotland is being dragged out of the EU against its democratic will, in my view, illegitimately. I believe this vote is about getting Scotland’s consent for brexit by the back door. I do not think there is enough evidence that proves England’s vote has changed that much and let’s face it, unless that vote in England changed and significantly, even if the entire electorate of Scotland votes to remain, it will not change the result. Again, so why bother?

    And what is exactly what they propose to vote for? Agreement or not on the brexit deal? To vote on the brexit deal you have to accept that there is a deal on the table. To accept
    that there is a deal on the table you have to accept that the UK is leaving the EU. Scotland did not ask for a deal because Scotland has not consented on leaving the EU. Scotland wants to remain in the EU which is what it voted for in 2016. I think this “people’s vote” is a trap for Scotland and an attempt to indirectly getting our consent for brexit by the back door. We should not fall for this.

    Frankly, if this is really about giving the people a chance to rectify, then those behind the vote should cut the crap and grow the balls to face the people of England and Wales alone and ask them, as, at the end of the day, they were the ones who voted for Brexit. Scotland is not England’s lifejacket. If Scotland was perfectly capable to have its own referendum without having England holding its hand, so can England have hers without standing on Scotland as a lifeboat.

    England and Wales voted for Brexit, so the referendum should take place in England and Wales and they should be able to decide if they want to dissolve the union so they can leave the EU or they rather want to remain in the EU so they can preserve the UK.

    Now, do those behind the “people’s vote” and that are shouting so loudly for it really have the balls to ask England and Wales that question? Do they really have the balls to accept the answer they will get?

  207. sandy Henderson says:

    Couldn’t Kenny McBride’s post be published in “THE National” in it’s entirety &, wait for it, in other MSM, whereupon a statement be obtained from BBC Scotland in reply outlining their proposals.

    This could perhaps give a kick up the a**e to the Scottish press & their reporters, bearing in mind their employment position in a soon to be Independent Scotland.

  208. Capella says:

    @ Valerie – so that will be by order of the Reichs broadcaster the BBC?

  209. Andy-B says:


    Utterly disgraceful, that Scotland’s national flag is banned, yet the Butchers Apron flies freely.

  210. HandandShrimp says:

    Willie Rennie wants Indy off the table or the Liberals won’t back any future SNP budget. So in effect he has just announced they are not open for business and that the SNP can ignore any Liberal budget demands because even if they got them they would, in a copy of SLab’ old trick, vote against their own policy.

    Weird stuff from the Liberal conference … obviously broke into the waccy baccy early this year.

  211. Shinty says:

    Appreciate your efforts Kevin & David.

    I love pigs but believe putting lipstick on them is still a bad look – almost as bad as the BBC in Scotland.

    The BBC will never change – their sole purpose is to preserve the Union (at all costs).

    Better donating your licence fee to good indy causes.

  212. Shinty says:

    How disgusting is this? Sandra White has tweeted that there are no Saltires allowed into Proms on THe Green, just now.


    Who is actually going to stop anyone from flying their nations flag?

  213. Brian Doonthetoon says:

    Hi HYUFD at 12:17 pm.

    You typed,
    “Jockanese Wind Talker The Scotland Act 2016 was intended to deliver the changes promised in indyref1”

    Then, at 5:18 pm, you typed,

    “Jockanese Wind Talker
    The Scotland Act 2016 implemented the majority of the proposals put forward by the Smith Commission”

    Firstly, I’ve got to ask a serious question: exactly WHERE are you getting your news/info from?

    Secondly, I would point out that the “intent” you type about was a knee-jerk reaction to the poll, around 10 days before 18th September 2014, that showed the YES campaign with a majority. “Intent” does not result in a job done.

    Thirdly, here’s some “old news/info” for you. Labour, who more or less led the “Better Together” campaign through Alistair Darling, agreed that Jackie Bird’s suggestion of “Devomax” would be the outcome if Scots voted to remain in the union.

    The option of having a third option on the referendum ballot paper (for strengthened devolution) was ruled out by Cameron.

    “The PM has been criticised by some for not allowing a third question – on “devo max” – on to the ballot paper.”

    That’s from,

    To finish off, your assertion that the Smith Commission “delivered” what was promised, ie “DEVOMAX”, is disproved by the outcome. And who stood in the way? Easy – the UK unionist parties; the Tories, Labour and the Lib-Dems. Have a look at this graphic, then go homeward, to think again.

  214. Breeks says:

    I don’t want the BBC fixed. I couldn’t care less about their propaganda.

    I want the Scottish Govewrnment to have control over Broadcasting and a truly Scottish news and public affairs channel or channels instigated as befits a Sovereign Nation of over 5 million people.

    To Hell with the BBC and its sophistry and hidden agendas. End its monopoly, and let it stand or fall on its merit, because it surely will fall. I don’t watch the BBC shite anymore already, and that’s before credible alternative competition even exists.

    Fix the BBC? Why? End it’s priviledged monopoly, and take our chances.

  215. Breeks says:

    …And they can shove their Cricket up their arse as well.

  216. yesindyref2 says:

    @sandy Henderson

    David Hooks has an article in The National since 15 hours ago.

    Generally speaking, what David Hooks and Kenny McBride is doing is absolutely essential, and should be repeated – as should the demos every so often. The more attention it gets, the better.

    Better still is if the BBC continue to ignore it, continue to appear biased, to more and more and more people. The more the merrier.

  217. Roughian says:

    Proms in the park. I note no crowd shots for the finally. Looks the EBC speak with forked tongue.

  218. Iain says:

    For me and I suspect most people in Scotland, the bbc has well and truly burnt it’s boats.
    They can change all they want, but if nobody is watching or listening it will make no difference.

  219. HYUFD says:

    galamcennalath and Jockanese Wind Talker

    The Scotland Act 2016 delivered ‘the ability to amend sections of the Scotland Act 1998 which relate to the operation of the Scottish Parliament and the Scottish Government within the United Kingdom including control of its electoral system (subject to a two-thirds majority within the parliament for any proposed change)
    Legislative control over areas such as onshore oil and gas extraction, rail franchising, consumer advocacy and advice amongst others by devolution of powers in relation to these fields to the Ministers of the Scottish Parliament
    Management of the Crown Estate and the British Transport Police in Scotland
    Control over certain removable taxes including Air Passenger Duty.
    Full control over income tax including Income Tax rates and bands on non-savings and non-dividend income’

    After amendment it also added ‘Control over abortion laws is no longer being “reserved matter” outside of control of Scottish Government.
    Enhanced powers over welfare, including the ability to top-up any cuts to tax credits made by the UK.’

  220. Dr Jim says:

    The Smith commission powers for Scotland, there were three British English parties on the consultation panel and only two Scottish parties so of course the British English parties voted against everything,once again outvoting Scotland which everybody always knew was going to happen

    The British English government gave themselves three votes to two on a Scottish decision, is there anybody seriously believing the Smith commission was a real thing if so you’re smoking the British English weed and swallowing it

  221. Ian Brotherhood says:

    @Robert J. Sutherland (4.49) –

    I believe the prime demand we should be making of the BBC now, by whatever means, is an independent review of balance in its treatment of the independence question, carried out by trusted neutral observers. If the BBC is so confident it is getting it fairly right, as it frequently claims, what does it have to lose?

    There’s no evidence to suggest that the BBC would co-operate in any way with such a review – it would, if past form is anything to go by, merely dismiss such a project as unnecessary. Why would they accede to the involvement of ‘trusted neutral observers’ when they see that as a description of themselves?

    When the Education & Culture Committee at the Scottish Parliament summoned BBC Scotland executives to give evidence about pre-indyref coverage they ignored the request. When the request was repeated they said they weren’t going to attend because ‘they didn’t have to’. Eventually, it was Chris Patten, then Chair of the BBC Trust, who ordered McQuarrie and colleagues to attend (presumably because he was getting his ear nipped about it).

    There is not a single scrap of evidence to suggest that the BBC, at Scottish or UK levels, has the slightest intention of according secessionist movements any respect. The sheer strength of the SNP means that it cannot be ignored, aye, but it can be derided, undermined, belittled, besmirched…that’s where the BBC has delivered, unerringly, ever since the SNP came to power. The idea that they will even consider changing tack because a couple of misguided indy supporters shared tea and Bourbons with a regional apparatchik is completely fucking ludicrous.

  222. HYUFD says:

    galamcennalath Failure of logic there, firstly you say ‘EU Ref2, as most Britnat Remainers probably envisage it, would be merely another opportunity for Scotland’s wishes to be overruled by England!’

    Then most nationalists use Brexit as the key change from 2014 providing the excuse for indyref2, if Britnat Remainers reversed Brexit in EU ref2 that excuse would disappear! (Though May’s BINO Brexit is weakening it anyway)

  223. Proud Cybernat says:

    Consider these two exchanges here today:

    HYUFD at 12:17 pm.
    Brian Doonthetoon at 8:45 pm

    Now, HYUFD most likely knows s/he is talking utter pish which BDTT masterly eviscerates with the well-trodden WoS discipline of CITING SOURCES.

    But how many unaware readers read HYUFD’s pish and have not seen BDTT’s rebuttal of said pish?

    WoS is brilliant on many levels but this flat view of BTL comments needs to be addressed. If it had ‘threaded view’ then BDTT’s evisceration of THEFUD’s pish would be much more easily accessible for folks.

    Not sure if WordPress has such a feature – Rev?

  224. yesindyref2 says:

    @Proud Cybernat
    Quick look finds these, with Cinnamon Boards having threads. No idea what any of them are like though.

  225. galamcennalath says:

    HYUFD says:

    I agree, nothing like what was expected was eventually devolved.

    Consider tax. The two Scottish parties put forward sensible proposals, the three BritNat ones grudgingly proposed very little.

  226. Valerie says:

    Here is the link to Sandra’s tweet. They were confiscating the flags!

  227. yesindyref2 says:


    I had a chatroom late 90s, a Matt’s Archive one which I made a bit secure and cosier, with a log. The log showed attempts to break through the walls with metacharters and though that failed I didn’t have time to keep an eye on it so I deleted it.

  228. Effijy says:

    Yet again, well done Rev.

    Every day in life the BBC try to fight anything that might reflect Scotland or the SNP in a positive note.

    Where is the documentary the BBC must make about Scotland being denied access to the McCrone Report?

    Where is the investigative journalism questioning why we are not to know which Westminster politicians where friends of the Dunblane Killer Thomas Hamilton?

    Why do the BBC Give so many hours of free uninterrupted air time to the clown Gordon Brown, one of the worst Chancellors of the Exchequer ever and a disaster of a PM.

    Why didn’t the challenge the Westminster Block to buy the world wide hit TV Series Outlander? (Because it showed English soldiers having free reign to kills Scots as they pleased)

    The BBC Had to consciously and deliberately edit in pictures of Alex Salmond shaking his head constantly as John Swinney disused new budget proposals when this action took place while a Liberal MSP made some stupid statements in parliament.

    Same again when the BBC discussed former SNP representative Michelle Thomson cleared of wrong doing over her property portfolio. The True Police statement was “No Case To Answer” To which the BBC twisted around to “She goy away with it”.

    For good measure they edited in a historical clip from an unrelated case where a judge agreed to clear another defendant but suggested that they should check their moral code in future.

    Someone at the Beeb had to find those clips and piece them together to tarnish the SNP and one of their editors accepted it

    How about the Beeb’s representative threatening Prof John Robertson and his University for compiling reports on how the BBC use established propaganda methods to discredit the SNP and Scottish Independence.

    I see and hear BBC propaganda every day and is completely undeniable.

    i.e. “Sturgeon claims” The PM Theresa May states”
    Why not extend the same courtesy to our duly elected First Minister Nicola Sturgeon?

    I also see with my own eyes how the BBC Camera man in Glasgow hunkered down and organised a Labour Bus load of supporters around Dim Jim Murphy to make it look like a thronging mass.

    There were 30-40 labour supporters and no passer byes giving a damn about a brief huddle set up for the BBC.

    They do the same thing with Tory and Liberal Conferences in Scotland. The attendances are very poor but the BBC Camera snuggles in to a couple of rows that are better occupied to
    hind the vast number of empty seats.

    Why is it the BBC report A & E waiting times in Scotland as missing their targets full stop when the story is actually NHS Scotland despite Westminster Austerity Cuts and our remote rural communities to support, they are consistently out performing Tory NHS England and Labour’s NHS Wales.

    Question Time used to have a Lib Dem member on most shows when they were the 3rd largest party in Westminster.
    When that mantle fell to the SNP with even greater numbers, we are seldom included.

    Sorry but the BBC played a major part in Westminster’s plan to steal the Scottish Referendum.

    They are a danger to democracy and the sooner this cancer is exorcised from Scotland’s media the better!

  229. Effijy says:

    93,170 other Scots took the trouble to register their complaint against BBC Bias and Scottish Independence!

    In BBC Speak that equals almost 200 people!

  230. ronnie anderson says:

    Valerie Mibbe Kenny McBride & David Hooks will put that on their agenda for their next meeting with Mike Small they might get a upgrade to Donalda McKinnon . They might also ask for the Bbc to Fly a Saltire on the 27th Oct to welcome us at the next BBC Bias Protest .

  231. Proud Cybernat says:

    What Effijy said 9:37pm.

  232. galamcennalath says:

    HYUFD says:

    if Britnat Remainers reversed Brexit in EU ref2 that excuse would disappear

    No one denies cancelling Brexit would probably give their UK Union a few years extra respite.

    I’ll believe cancelling when I see it.

  233. stewartb says:

    Brian Doonthetoon @8:45 pm

    You refer to an oft used graphic concerning who supported/who opposed what during the Smith Commission process.

    Its a very impactful but do you know the source of the graphic and who did the analysis of what Smith Commission documentation that underlie it? Genuine question!

    I’ve never seen the graphic attributed and never had enough motivation to try to reproduce it from original documentary evidence. Having an attribution assigned to the graphic whenever its used would only enhance its impact IMHO.

  234. Thepnr says:


    Someone at the Beeb had to find those clips and piece them together to tarnish the SNP and one of their editors accepted it”

    Good list of the BBC putting clips together, you missed this classic though of Sturgeon and the Gorilla! A “mistake” apparently.

  235. Robert Peffers says:

    @Thepnr says: 8 September, 2018 at 7:50 pm:

    ” … O/T Jamie Murray and his American partner Bethanie Mattek-Sands. have won the US Open mixed doubles. A title he also won last year.
    Jamie doesn’t always get the credit he deserves so a big well done from me anyway ?”

    Oh! He will get the credit all right – as a Briton representing Britain, a.k.a. England, a.k.a. The United Kingdom. He just won’t get it as a Scot except in Scotland.

  236. Croompenstein says:

    Then most nationalists use Brexit as the key change from 2014 providing the excuse for indyref2
    Disingenuous Yoon fud knowing fine
    well Scotland didnae vote for Brexit

  237. jfngw says:

    Going well so far since the meeting, within a day the BBC had made an attack on the Phantom Power Nation video, then block people in Glasgow from entering Glasgow Proms with Saltires. I think deeds speak more loudly than soft words at a meeting with the BBC PR man, the BBC speaks in deeds whilst giving soothing words.

    I don’t want BBC Scotland fixed, I want it scrapped. It will always be under the control of Westminster.

  238. Shug says:

    And now for the news in Scotland:

    Your police are shite
    Your nurses are shite
    Your hospitals are shite
    Your schools are shite, and your shite too

    Now back to the BBC news room in London where it has been a lovely sunny day

    Yes I believe they will improve

  239. Ian Brotherhood says:

    @Ronnie Anderson –

    That’s a couple of times I’ve seen you refer to an upcoming BBC meeting involving Mike Small.

    Do you have any more details of this? I’ve obviously missed something…


  240. Ian Brotherhood says:

    Are Kenny McBride and/or David Hooks going to come here and address any of the comments made?

    There’s no rule against the author of an article contributing btl, is there?


  241. Bob Nugent says:

    Is that guy MacLeod the one MOVED from bbc england after some “mix up”
    To the backwaters of Scotland to cover tracks.!!!!!!!!!!!!!

  242. twathater says:

    @ Bill Glen 2.03pm
    As one who was at the BBC demo with my wife and witnessed your and the organisers report live I agree with your exposure of their duplicity , for duplicity and denial is what they attempt to excel at , unfortunately for them we independenistas have longer memories than cabbages

    I for one cannot forget the Donalda head of bbc Jockland expressing REGRET and contrition that us Jocks are outraged at the corrupt bbc treating Jockistan as brain damaged serfs

    If memory serves Donalda PROMISED to do better and win back the trust of indy Scots ( I must have been asleep or comatose during this conversion ) for I admit I remain fully entrenched in HATING this corrupt , biased cabal of Scotland hating liars

    @ Gullane no4 10.51am
    In reference to throwing the baby out with the bath water and a broadcaster after Indy

    The bbc premises and ALL the very expensive and technical equipment are publicly owned , of which our share would be collectively operated and utilised by experienced and trusted journalists ,reporters ,and all sections of media broadcasting , some of whom have probably been blacklisted by the biased bbc due to their support for independence . I have no doubt that Scotland would not be short of qualified people to forward a Scottish broadcast media

    It might even have a vacancy for a Bath incomer or immigrant

  243. ben madigan says:

    o/T -This is a link to what 6 EU Ambassadors think of what ireland has achieved since Independence and the issues she still faces

    Try and put it in the context what what Scotland could achieve with Independence, with all her resources – no brainer

  244. Jules says:

    The solution is simple. Objective, impartial analysis of the BBC’s output by independent media/political/communications experts who aren’t based in the UK.

    If the Beeb is so confident that its output is balanced, they should have nothing to worry about.

    Also, imagine how the Unionists would react to that prospect. Everyone on the Yes side would greet independent analysis of the Beeb as a huge step forward. But the Yoons – although some try sheepishly to claim that the BBC is balanced or even pro-indy occasionally – would be terrified. They’d try to find every possible way to stop it. Which would be very telling all round.

  245. galamcennalath says:

    The Telegraph has always been right wing and Tory. However, when did it begin to write utter pish?

    A headline (story behind paywall) ….

    “Theresa May is gambling on disaffected Labour moderates to get Chequers Brexit plan through Parliament “

    … when and under what circumstances will her Chequers plan come before parliament for a vote?

    No one believes it will actually form the basis of the future trade relationship statement attached to the Withdrawal Agreement having been accepted by the EU, do they?

  246. HYUFD says:

    ben Madigan Ireland has lower taxes than the UK and spends less as a percentage of gdp

  247. McDuff says:

    I respect the efforts made but having complained to the BBC over many years about various things and getting the same patronising and arrogant responses each time, I am certain that they will never change.
    To suggest that there is no conspiracy to denigrate independence is ridiculous when the main complaint is bias against the SNP and independence. That is the BBC`s agenda they will stick to it.
    Why do they only review the English newspapers in the morning excluding the rest of the UK. They are not remotely interested in anything outside England demanding complete control of the UK and the BBC is an important weapon in their political propaganda machine.
    It is hard to believe that Scotland is a country anymore, it has no airline or proper tv companies, its oil and gas, whisky and just about everything else is foreign owned and has no say in major political decisions.
    As for the BBC, be in no doubt they are the enemy of independence and always will be.

  248. Phronesis says:

    An educated public that doesn’t want sound bites, a country that can explore its national identity because it has a well developed and independent media structure, a constitution that supports press freedom and controls monopoly of media ownership because quality of media is ‘critical ‘ to democracy.

    It is critical to Scotland’s democracy that established and emergent Indy media is supported in all its forms. The new Sunday edition of the National is great news.
    We are entitled to demand that the BBC in Scotland includes in all its reporting of Scotland’s national news how events impact on Scotland’s economic and societal prosperity using a Scotland lens .Censorship from London only diminishes the BBC in Scotland as having any legitimacy in presenting ‘news’,its future uncertain.
    A truly independent media for example would unequivocally support Scotland’s vote to remain in the EU – why even consider another EU referendum in Scotland or subvert the outcome because it doesnt fit England’s choice. 2 countries have voted for different outcomes .

    ‘In addition to keen competition for advertising revenue and modernization of technology, a major factor in the increased popularity of large national newspapers is the content emphasis on foreign and national news, business, and cultural coverage. Each of Copenhagen’s two large morning dailies has five or six foreign correspondents plus “stringers” in various areas, though much of their foreign news comes through Ritzau’s Bureau and Reuters news services. To compete with the appeal of radio and television to the general populace, the newspapers have targeted their content to well-educated people who prefer the in-depth news coverage provided by newspapers to the sound bites on radio and television…
    The Danish press—print, broadcast, and electronic—seems well able to adapt to circumstances. Constitutional freedom of the press is exercised by the print media, while radio and television are partly funded and controlled by the state. Media consumption increases along with the varieties of media. Even as the electronic media inspires more consumption of programs with international orientation, there is a corresponding rise in interest in media focused on local communities and national identity’

    ‘A reason for Norway’s ranking is its attitude toward media ownership.Its constitution protects free expression and requires the state “to create conditions that facilitate open and enlightened public discourse.”This highlights the link Norway sees between free expression and media ownership transparency,and “provides a basis for public intervention as a means to promote media pluralism and quality, as a prerequisite for a well-functioning democracy as well as freedom of speech.”Norway views media pluralism and quality as so critical for democracy and free speech that government has a positive obligation to act…
    Norway’s constitution requires the government to facilitate open, enlightened public discourse, which it does by combating concentration of media ownership, and promoting media ownership transparency and media pluralism’

  249. HYUFD says:

    galamcennalath Chequers plus will likely be the basis of the withdrawal agreement and transition period ie alignment on single market services rules as well as customs unions rules and with work permits and study places on arrival in the UK

  250. wull says:

    Excellent move by the SNP to support EU Ref 2, if that is indeed what they are doing. This is a genuinely principled stance, showing that the SNP does sincerely want the whole of the present UK to ‘remain’ within the EU. Alone of all the Parties the SNP remains fully consistent with herself and her declared policies.

    But this does not exhaust the wisdom of such a move. There are many other advantages too.

    It will earn not just the SNP but Scotland itself high value brownie points – increased credibility and respect, and prestige – with the EU, and its leaders. Granted that the Lib-Dems count for next to nothing, this is the first major political Party in the UK (the first one that does count) to push British politics in the desired direction. Hopefully, the EU won’t forget this when we do finally become independent. Even if we fail to get an EU Ref 2, they should be able to recall that we (the SNP, Scottish Government of the day) tried our hardest. This will come in handy whenever we do enter negotiations with Europe, as an independent Scotland.

    More immediately, this move also demolishes at a single stroke various lines of attack that the ‘Tory-Lab-Lib-Dem Union Party’ would have used against the SNP if she had done anything less than come out for EU-Ref-2. They would have said the SNP were only using Brexit artificially, in order to engineer a second vote for independence. The SNP are showing unequivocally that such is not the case.

    In fact, they are even potentially sacrificing their absolutely valid justification for that second independence referendum, in order to stick by their principles. The Union United Front (UUF for short, = Tor-Lab-LibDem) has been clamouring for the SNP to give up on their Indy2. And the SNP now says to the UUF: that’s in your hands, not ours. It’s up to you yourselves, dear friends in the UUF, to remove the reason for IndyRef2. All you have to do is get behind EU-Ref-2, and – for Heaven’s sake – win it this time for ‘Remain’.

    If that happens, Scotland will not be dragged out of the EU against her will, the substantial shift in her material circumstances which presently makes IndyRef2 a democratic necessity will not transpire, and – yes, just what you (i.e. you You-You-Effers) keep saying you want – IndyRef2 will not, after all, take place.

    Not, at least, within the term of the present Holyrood Parliament. Because, with the UK remaining in the EU, you will have removed the legitimate grounds for IndyRef2. If Brexit does not take place, the SNP will no longer be obliged to hold Indyref2. But if it does, she will remain obliged to hold it – in order to fulfill the mandate it received from the electorate in that regard during the Holyrood elections of 2016. She will simply be fulfilling the manifesto she put forward at that time, and on which she was elected.

    Some of us might be disappointed to think that winning a second EU Referendum (for ‘Remain’) would lead to a postponement of the second IndyRef we are all looking forward to (and getting geared up for). But we should not be dismayed. Such an outcome would be extremely helpful for the time – only slightly postponed – when we do become independent. It would not be in any way beneficial to us (or to anyone else) to have a hard border between Scotland and England. The prospect of such a thing would be a major counter-argument to independence during Indyref2, and you may be sure that the UUEffers would make a lot of noise about it during the campaign.

    If EU-Ref-2 is won for ‘Remain’, that counter-argument is removed at a stroke. An independent England (or whatever they want to call it) will be in Europe, and so too will an independent Scotland. There will be no hard borders, and no problem, when we do eventually hold IndyRef2 and become independent.

    When will that happen? So long as the SNP keeps Indyref2 in its manifesto, the next time the SNP win sufficient seats to form the Holyrood Government. And, if they stay on course and hold their nerve, they will still be able to do that in 2021.

    Meanwhile, if it turns out differently, and our EFFER friends resist EU-Ref-2, or do not press successfully or sufficiently for their mates in their own Party to hold it … well, the case for the Scottish Government to hold IndyRef2 before 2021 becomes irrefutable.

    The mandate is there, and must be fulfilled. The SNP will have to do what they were elected to do. The democratic principles at stake could not be clearer.

    The only way to prevent Scotland from being dragged out of Europe against the clearly stated will of the Scottish people, who are sovereign in Scotland, will be to hold IndyRef2. And this will have to be done before 2021, in the course of the present Holyrood Parliament.

    Contrary to what its opponents pretend, the SNP is proving once again to be a highly principled Party. It has a consistency which all its competitors lack. This is because it actually does have some real beliefs – including above all the belief that Scotland should be an independent country. But also including the belief that her future should, in one way or another, be closely tied to that of the whole of Europe, because Scotland is a European nation, and has been for many many centuries.

    By contrast, the other Parties seem to believe in nothing: they float with the wind, simply seeking power like the mere opportunists most of them are. Except, to be fair – for reasons that remain entirely beyond me – they do perhaps believe in that strangely cobbled-together thing, the (English-dominated) British State. That makes them the sentimentalists, not us. Indeed, the irrational sentimentalists …

    Although I vote SNP I am not a member, and will never join any political party. I vote SNP not because I agree with everything it stands for – I don’t – but, above all, because I want independence, and the SNP remain the only viable vehicle for obtaining that end. This ‘basic consistency’ which comes through in the SNP intrigues me all the same.

    In its sheer rationality, it strikes me as a typically Scottish trait. If you wade through the legal arguments that took place between Scotland and England in the 1290s and early 1300s – another intriguing thing – some similarities occur. Or so, at least, it seems to me, There is a principled consistency about the Scottish arguments of that period which the English arguments never match. Basically because the Scottish case is well-founded, on a basis of sound principles which are then logically carried through, without wavering. Over the course of 30 years, and more. And although the English lawyers of the day were obviously no fools, their premises are just that little bit less secure, tinged as they were with a deliberate opportunism. And the way they develop their case is consequently less sure and – it seems to me – ultimately disingenuous. Which is to say, spurious.

    But that is another story …

    Meanwhile, if the SNP pushes for EU-Ref-2 and the UUF turn it down, the UUF will have turned down their chance to save what they pretend is their beloved Union. They will be the anti-Democrats (the UUF = ADA, the Anti-Democratic Alliance?). And I think they’ll lose IndyRef2.

    On another scenario, if the UUF do accede to the SNP proposal and EU-Ref-2 does take place, and ‘Remain’ wins in Scotland but ‘Leave’ again wins overall – then the SNP will go ahead with IndyRef2 now. And, in my view, the pro-independence vote will gain the day.

    And if ‘Remain’ wins overall, the SNP will have played an important role in saving everyone’s bacon (England’s too), the European Union will remember that (it will have helped to save them a lot of hassle too) and … although Indyref2 will be temporarily postponed, we will still be in a very good position to win it when it comes round again in the very near future. And we will become independent in the best possible circumstances because – really and truly – we do not want a hard border with England, if we can possibly avoid it.

    Just as no one in Ireland really wants a hard border between the North and the South of the island.

    (Or even with England … something that never happened, because – despite the historical bitterness – it was to no one’s advantage, even when the Republic did finally become an independent nation.)

    The democratic case for holding EU-Ref-2 is self-evident. People did not know what they were voting for in the first EU-Ref, for the simple reason that there was nothing like the White Paper that the SNP produced for IndyRef1. There was no blueprint on which to vote, so Brexit could mean different things to different people. Even incompatible things. Once people at last know what it actually means, they should have the right to decide whether they want it or not. That means voting on it again.

    A Party which genuinely believes in the sovereignty of the people could not remain consistent with itself if it opposed such a vote. Of course, it also remains clear – the SNP has never wavered on this one – that Scotland is a nation and its people a sovereign people. So it cannot be dictated to by another nation, even one within the current (UK) Union.

    Consistency demands this stance of the SNP … as does basic principle. Her campaigning for the UK to ‘remain’ as closely integrated with Europe as possible is also consistent with this, and with her own principles. Even when she pushed for the sibgle market and customs union in the difficult circumstances produced by the Brexit vote (obtained with false promises – and therefore in my opinion fundamentally flawed to the point of invalidity – as that vote was). That basic invalidity is another reason why EU-Ref-2 is a democratic necessity.

    The SNP has taken the initiative with this move. She has put herself on the front foot. She will also appeal on this score to some who do not traditionally vote for her. There are plenty of Scottish ‘Remainers’ who were not pro-independence, but who will be ‘thinking again’ over the coming few months. More of them, I suspect, than those pro-independence SNP voters who all the same voted ‘Leave’ (like Alex Neil). And if they are really pro-independence, that constituency will still vote ‘Yes’ in Indyref2.

    Fear not: we are winning …

  251. HYUFD says:

    Wull People like Alex Neil at least have some logic in their nationalism in that there is little point declaring independence from the UK in only to renounce it again in favour of the EU

  252. Footsoldier says:

    I have seen conflicting comments that Saltires were/were not allowed at BBC Proms in the Park on Glasgow Green tonight.

    I cannot believe anyone would be stupid enough to stop them. Can anyone confirm one way or the other? Pictures would help.

  253. HYUFD says:

    Footsoldier As there were even saltires in the Albert Hall I imagine a load of rubbish

  254. Dave McEwan Hill says:

    A quick look at “London Calling” on YouTube or on the DVDs we have in the Forward Shop is very telling indeed.

  255. Dr Jim says:

    Ask any ordinary people around the world what they think about the British’s word on anything then stand back to avoid the spit

    I’ve been around the world

    Anybody watch channel 4 documentary on the Ballymurphy massacre tonight…..ask them about British truth, it doesn’t exist

  256. Liz g says:

    HYFUD @ 11.06
    Why not…. theres nothing wrong with a country being in a Union that works for it.
    Free to join.
    Free to leave.
    But most of all the people of that country agree to be in it.
    Its the old Treaty of the Union that’s the problem!
    It needs to go.
    As for any and all Unions…. Free to leave is a must.
    Don’t think this is an issue with the EU I believe they even have a road map… It’s called Article 50!

  257. Footsoldier says:

    I will answer my own question at 11:09pm above and confirm I have seen pictures of Glasgow Green with Saltires flying.

    Don’t know what Sandra Whyte is talking about, see Valerie’s link at 9:35pm.

  258. Dave McEwan Hill says:

    HYUFD at 11.06

    Utter rubbish. All members of the EU retain full sovereignty and are free to leave it if they wish. Can’t be bothered arguing with stupid posts like that anymore.
    There maybe reasons to leave the EU but that nonsense is not one of them.

  259. Dave McEwan Hill says:

    I just watched the hugely distressing “Ballymurphy Murders” on Channel 4. Every person should be made to sit down and watch it and understand what we are part of.

    There are no words to describe my utter disgust.

  260. Elmac says:

    Re HYFUD @ 11.16

    You seem to know a lot about rubbish.

  261. Liz g says:

    Wull @ 10.51
    Re.. The SNP supporting a second EU vote.
    Where are you getting this from?
    Has there been an announcement?

  262. HYUFD says:

    Dr Jim Of course British includes Scottish and according to this survey the UK was 13th out of 70 countries in terms of reputation so yet again a polemic that does not match the facts

  263. HYUFD says:

    LizG Scotland was free to leave the UK in 2014, Scots chose to stay, the UK was free to leave the EU in 2016 and the UK chose to leave

  264. Ghillie says:

    Kenny McBride and David Hooks, Well done for trying =)

    A+ for the presentation of your case!

    Ball is in their court. Let’s see what they do with it.

    In the meantime, business as usual.

    And, it’s over to Rev Stu for the REAL NEWS 🙂

  265. Stephen McKenzie says:

    Effigy @ 21:37

    Spot on! Yes I agree that BBC Scotland has sold its soul, and this recent “Road to Damascus” is a distraction. It is told what to do by its London masters end of.

    Stephen McKenzie

  266. Old Pete says:

    SNP have not said they would support a second UK referendum on Brexit.
    English UK government have shown disrespect to the Scottish government and its people who did after all vote like NI to remain in the UK.

  267. HYUFD says:

    Dave McEwan Hill If you want to rake over the Troubles again we could also mention Enniskillen or Warrington but I am not going into points scoring as we are hopefully over that period

  268. Liz g says:

    HYFUD @ 11.41
    No we were not…
    Have ye forgotten “Project Fear” coercion is not freedom.
    Why do you think the 2014 vote didn’t settle the matter for any length of time?
    If you think that the Westminster junta left Scotland to have the conversation and reach a decision then you my friend are deluded.

    You ,yerself ,even now, can’t stay out of our business!

    The EU didn’t interfere in the Brexit vote…. and that’s the minimum behavioural requirement to be able to claim Scotland actually wanted to stay in the 1707 Union.
    If ye want a real result.. Let’s get a righteous vote organised,then you can make yer claim about what the Scots want.

  269. Thepnr says:


    Any source for the claim that SNP have come out in favour of a 2nd EU referendum, nothing that I could find on the news aggregators?

  270. wull says:

    Hy HYFUD,

    Surely you don’t think the EU is the same kind of Union as the UK? Yet you seem to equate them. In doing so you are comparing apples and pears.

    Even the US is not the same kind of Union as the UK.

    In fact, nothing on earth is the same kind of Union as the UK.

    You don’t need to study much history – or political science – to know that. Actually, a modicum of common sense ought to be enough to see it clearly …

    The member states of the EU do not lose their sovereignty. If they did they would not have a seat at the United Nations.

    Do you really think France is not a sovereign nation? Or Belgium for that matter? Or whoever you like to choose …

    I remain convinced that Scotland should be a full member of the EU when she becomes independent. That, by the way, has been and remains the official policy of the SNP – the Party whose principal objective is Scottish independence – for the past 40 or more years.

    Independence in Europe – the SNP sees no contradiction whatsoever in that eventuality. If you are surprised by the idea maybe you haven’t been following the independence movement for very long. True, there are some SNP members who are not convinced, but they are a minority. The estimate is often given at a figure of plus or minus 30% … Which means plus or minus 70% support the official policy. And then there are all those others who support it who, like myself, are not actually SNP.

    There are also Scots who are not in favour of independence but are very much in favour of membership of the EU. If Scotland does become independent, even against their wishes, these people will still want the newly independent country to retain full membership of the European Union.

    I expect if a post-independence Scotland were to hold a referendum on whether or not to be a member of the EU – the conditions for joining or retaining that membership being known – the likely result would be something like 70% in favour, with 30% against. Or, maube, 65% to 35%. Scots are an outgoing people and we both like and need the wider stage. The UK is now too small for that – the EU will provide it. We are not intending to become independent in order to retreat into a kailyard.

    That, at least, is how I see it. You are welcome to your contrary opinion, HYFUD. I might be wrong but I can’t see your view ever becoming the majority one in Scotland. It will go down with some people, but not most.

    There is such a thing as ‘Little Englanders’, and there was such a thing as Lord Salisbury’s typically English policy of ‘Splendid Isolation’ in the latter part of the 19th Century – but I don’t think there is much (or any?) evidence of a genuinely Scottish equivalent of such attitudes in the course of Scottish history.

    Not in a deep-rooted way, at least … There is more depth to that kind of root in England, in some sections of the English population. And it has carried over to some extent in a ‘British’ way with those Scots who identify themselves most closely with the ‘British project’ (though they will see it as ‘British’, not English). And I can grant that there are some Scottish Nationalists who see independence in the most absolute and isolationsist terms … But they are far from the majority. And, while I can sympathise where such nationalists are coming from, and wouldn’t be too harsh on them, I would say their terms are unrealistic, since no modern nation really thinks like that any more …

    There is no contradiction between being independent and sovereign and at the same time internationalist and bound by all kinds of ties to other nations and peoples as well, even very closely. This is the modern world.

    And that’s me signing off for the night …

  271. Ghillie says:

    The last I heard, the SNP said they would not block the attempt at EU Ref2 (from STV so who knows though)

    But what I do know for sure is that, whatever decision the SNP take on how to approach any call for an EU Ref2, it will be a good decision taken with the best interests of the people of Scotland at its heart.

  272. ronnie anderson says:

    Footsoldier Bbc stopped people flying the Saltire at Scone , as they have done at many events U might not remember the Commonwealth Games where they removed people who had Saltire’s .

  273. pool9 says:

    Don’t believe a word from them. I’ve had the old look you in the eye, agree and nod meaningfully, make soothing noises, then ignore you treatment when making a workplace complaint. Management is all on your side when it is only words at stake, until they do nothing, or in fact make things worse. They listen and do nothing. In fact they can take what you give them and use it against you later. Do not listen to their words, their protestations of innocence, their claims that they have done good works for Scotland: look at their actions. And their actions tell you all you need to know.

  274. HYUFD says:

    Liz G The fact the EU did sod all in the EU referendum, not even something akin to the ‘vow’ in 2014 eg giving the UK a bit more control over free movement to reflect the fact Blair did not take the transition controls we could have had in 2004, may well have been pivotal given Remain only lost 52% to 48%

  275. HYUFD says:

    Wull You only to have to look at Greece with 20% unemployment because of diktat from Brussels and Merkel over its economic policies as part of the Eurozone to see where power really lies in the EU. Plus yes I do think most EU nations have given up much and arguably most of their lawmaking power to the EU and of course the EU is now represented at both the G7 and G20

  276. Liz g says:

    HYUFD @ 12.13
    Whits yer point…
    Has that ( glad you acknowledged the EU stayed out of the Brexit vote) a thing to do with Scottish choices about the 1707 Treaty arrangement?
    I’m saying this is a conversation for Scotland and just like the EU, Westminster should mind their own business… and by extension you,yer countrymen and yer state broadcaster!
    Then and only then can it be claimed that Scotland choose the Treaty!
    If not the claim is false!

  277. Robert Peffers says:

    @Jules says: 8 September, 2018 at 10:17 pm:

    T” … he solution is simple. Objective, impartial analysis of the BBC’s output by independent media/political/communications experts who aren’t based in the UK.”

    There is absolutely no need for an independent impartial analysis, Jules. If we can just foster the truth and counter the Westminster lies.

    They, (Westminster), have drummed into people throughout the World since the private company, “The British Broadcasting Corporation”, was instigated by a handful of, Radio Armatures, (Hams), who were then the only people who were attempting to build up businesses manufacturing, “Wireless Receivers and Transmitters”.

    There were no professional companies for the only, “Wireless Communications”, were those Radio Hams communicating with each other and they were, “Licenced”, A.K.A. “given permission”, to do so, by the Westminster Government who sold them, “licence”, to do so. Among them were Marconi, Murphy, Thompson and other Hams who were more advanced than others so their only market for their wares were other Hams who, even today, tend to design and build their own gear.

    So the idea grew that what was required was to invent a bigger market to expand the demand for their wares. The idea led to the adoption of the now common word, “Broadcast”, that describes transmitting to a broader sector of the public instead of individual Hams sending and receiving Morse code to each other. This meant, “Broadcasting”, news, weather reports, music and entertainment as regular programmes to the public who thus only needed wireless receiver sets.

    In June 1912 Marconi opened the world’s first purpose-built radio factory at New Street Works in Chelmsford, England. The first such Wireless Station was in an ex-War Department hut outside that Marconi factory In 1922 regular wireless broadcasts for entertainment began in the UK from the Marconi Research Centre with the ham call sign 2MT at Writtle near Chelmsford, England.

    These were then followed by the newly formed British Broadcast Corporation – that is the incorporation of British Wireless manufacturers 0 a non-government private company broadcast station in London known by call sign 2LO.

    Then Westminster saw the danger of public broadcasting to the government and as is Westminster’s usual methods of takeover of such private companies they granted the cash strapped Wireless set makers a Royal Warrant and took them over by funding them with a Government grant. Just in a similar manner as they had with the nominally Private company, The Bank of England, (only nationalised in 1964).

    So the BBC at 2LO became the Westminster propaganda tool it has remains so to this day. He who pays the piper calls the tune but the very first propaganda exercise the BBC carried out for their masters was to indoctrinate the public that they, The Public, paid for the BBC.

    To make that convincing, (and a nice little earner), the Westminster Government instigated Wireless Receiving Licences.

    However, the truth is hat since the first license was sold the cash has never been retained by the BBC but went directly into, “The Consolidated Tax Fund”, of Her Majesty’s Treasury.

    That is it is just general taxation and all the BBC gets is an annual government grant from general taxation.

    All of which means ALL taxpayers of any kind of tax are paying for the BBC – not just those daft enough to pay for a licence.

    I’d bet if everyone stopped renewing their licence Westminster would still fund their propaganda toll.

    |So the way to get shot of that propaganda tool is for the public to become aware that the licence fee does NOT pay for the BBC programmes – the HM Treasury does.

  278. HYUFD says:

    LizG It was only residents of Scotland who voted in 2014 and they chose to stay part of the UK

  279. wull says:

    Liz g says:
    8 September, 2018 at 11:38 pm
    Wull @ 10.51
    Re.. The SNP supporting a second EU vote.
    Where are you getting this from?
    Has there been an announcement?

    Hi Liz g,

    No, I did not see any announcement. So maybe I jumped the gun! What I did see was a post somewhere further up here, which said that the MSM was full of news of SNP support for EU-Ref-2. So maybe I should have been more wary – after all, if it’s only the MSM it’s probably not true at all.

    Still, I don’t regret going a bit gung-ho on the matter, and do genuinely hope that the SNP will take that line. Besides sticking to principles – which I think is invariably the right thing to do, since it pays off in the long run – I think they’ll gain by it in every way in any case. It will put the cat among the pigeons in the Tory and Labour camps, increasing their divisions.

    What do they really want – Brexit? Or the (UK) Union? Thay’ll have to make your minds up – which one is really their priority? In the end, it does not look as if they will be able to have both.

    One or the other, then … Or, maybe (quite possibly, even likely, in my view, at least eventually) – NEITHER! Which would be the best for us!

    If they go for Brexit at all costs, and as hard as it comes, they’ll surely lose Scotland – and Northern Ireland as well. If they forget about Brexit they might just save the Union – but not for long (in my view). Yet even if the UK Union goes as well, they will at least have saved themselves from the self-harm that Brexit would have caused them.

    So they will be doing themselves – and not just us – a favour if they go for Eu-Ref-2, and win it for Remain.

    In practice, however, I don’t think they will. For the moment they have tamed UKIP, even made it disappear. But they are all afraid of it coming back, and eating into their heartlands, whether Tory or Labour. This is a peculiarly English problem, which we don’t fully understand here, because it hasn’t much to do with us … Yet it is dominating the whole of British politics which, even more than usual at this precise moment, is specifically and uniquely English politics. UKIP is the bogeyman in the cupboard of both the big Parties, and they are as scared as can be of it. Upset that horrible ugly Beast and it could rise the ashes, and completely overturn both of them.

    So I don’t think Labour or the Tories will risk overturning the pro-Brexit vote. Even if it does mean – as they must also fear – that they will lose Scotland (and maybe Northern Ireland too). While they would like to prevent that from happening altogether, for the moment they will be content just to delay it for as long as they possibly can. Losing Scotland is the lesser evil for them – much less important than holding on to power in England, even carving it up between them (the Big Two, Labour and Conservative) …

    Their top priority, equally shared, is eliminating UKIP, and making sure the explicitly Fascist take-over of Merry Olde England doesn’t happen. They are English nationalists, after all – and you can see why that is so important to them. And to make sure of that outcome, only one thing is necessary: BREXIT must go ahead. And it has got to be hard … So, drive it hard – very hard – they will. While all the time blaming the EU for not being flexible, for not being jolly good chaps, and for not playing by the rules which never in reality existed, except in British/English heads.

    For all their divisions, there is a consensus in English politics, even between the two leaderships … And that consensus is, Brexit First!

    All the rest is secondary to achieving that end (including whatever it might be that ‘the people’ actually want … What has it got to do with them? Who is really in charge here?).

    Mind you, so many things could happen. So many scenarios are possible … What would happen if corbyn suddenly switched and supported EU-Ref-2? (I think he would profit from it, but I also think he’s too stubborn to see that.)

    It must seem as if Nicola Sturgeon has an awful lot of things to second-guess. Yet it doesn’t ultimately depend on second-guesses. so long as she sticks to the basic principles, and remains fundamentally consistent, we’ll win. we surely will …

  280. Famous15 says:

    %HYFUD is a disruptive exaggerator. The EU is nothing like the UK and its Dirctives which are imported into Scots Law Are worthily things like Health and safety and workers rights,food and drugs safety being the most important.The rest is up to Westminster or Holyrood.

    Stop lying.

  281. Chick McGregor says:

    ‘”Come into my parlour”, said the spider to the fly’, comes to mind.

  282. HYUFD says:

    Wull UKIP are already on at least double their 2014 vote in most polls and close to 10% in some, if May really wanted to eliminate UKIP and get rid of Scotland she would have gone for ultra hard WTO terms Brexit, instead she is heading for a Brexit in Name Only which Chequers was a move toward with the UK staying in the single market and the customs union for the most part. As the 2017 general election proved when the SNP lost over a third of their seats after pushing indyref2, using Brexit as an automatic excuse for a second referendum will not automatically wash with Scots either

  283. Liz g says:

    Wull @ 12.49
    Thanks for clearing that up Wull..
    I thought I’d missed something… wouldn’t be the first time LoL.
    You made some good points there … and that ye should never apologise for..
    Was about to write… never apologise never : explain: but me I need the explanation, it’s a bugger but I do I.. really do.. lol

  284. HYUFD says:

    Famous15 EU regulations become immediately enforceable as law in all member states simultaneously.

  285. Dr Jim says:

    An old Scottish saying I’ll repeat

    On meeting an Englishman with a mind to argue the Scotsman should immediately take his sword and cleave him in two, it saves very much time and he can go on with his day unhindered

    Unfortunately there are laws against doing that sort of thing now but no law says you can’t do it mentally and move on just the same

  286. HYUFD says:

    Should have said UKIP are already on at least double their 2017 vote in polls in earlier comment

  287. Dr Jim says:

    I see Dan Snow is at it again with his peoples vote telling the English folk that they’re sovereign which I have to tell him they’re not and never have been since the English Monarchy relinquished sovereignty to Parliament not the people

    The only people who are sovereign are the people of Scotland
    and our parliament serves us not the other way round

    Our ancestors weren’t daft when they wrote that clause in

  288. Robert Peffers says:

    For goodness sake, Wingers, The Westminster Establishment has always been in place for the idea of opposition parties is just for the sake of fooling the public. The Kingdom of England has never in its entire history ever been a democratic entity.

    It is after all a Monarchy with a legally sovereign monarch. It is thus, and always has been, the elite aristocracy that has been in charge. Beginning with the Roman occupation over hundreds of years. The Roman’s left and the way Rome ruled was to Romanise the previous aristocrats and make them answerable to a Roman Governor. When the Roman’s left the Romanised aristocrats invited the Germanic tribes to south Britain and they took over as the new elite rulers marrying their own kind and treating the south Britons as slaves.

    That lot of Germanic tribes ended with the Normans but we still have Germanic monarchs and aristocrats as hereditary peers sitting in the Lords, along with Law Lords and Church Lords, (archbishops).

    Now here is a wee question for you all – What is the first thing Westminster does when a war is declared?

    The King/Queen summons someone, (like Churchill), to his/Her Majesty’s presence and commands them to form His/Her Majesty’s coalition wartime government. At the present time we do not have a coalition wartime government but we might as well have one for the present set-up is the Westminster Union vs Scottish and Irish independence.

    Make no mistake this current BR UKexit will end with a re-unified and independent Ireland and the splitting up of the two kingdoms of the union with an independent England/Wales and an independent Scotland, (that will almost certainly choose to ditch the Queen of Scots who has legally failed to fulfil her sworn duty as Queen of Scots pledged to be the protector of the people of Scotland’s legal sovereignty.

    There may, in time be a case for Scotland, Ireland and Gibraltar, (plus the three crown dependencies – to take over as the legacy EU member state. The EU would be fools to let us all go although The Republic will remain as an independent member state in any case.

  289. Liz g says:

    Dr Jim @ 1.24
    That’s sound advice, but whit if it’s late, and everything sensible that could be said on the thread has been said.
    Why can’t we play with the British Nationals ?
    We never forced them to be here … and unlike this accursed Union they can bow out at any time!
    We can spark off them till there’s a date… can’t see the harm.. once there’s a date a lot of old falmilar posters will be back… there won’t be time to humor the British Nationals.
    But until then it’s Cathartic Dr… don’t ye think?

  290. yesindyref2 says:

    As usual we see some Daily Mail type FUD here, on EU Regulations, with the propagandic words being “immediately enforeceable”. Oh woe is me, how draconian, how undemocratic, how totalitarian. How Brexit!

    Well it’s bullsugar as one would expect. The Commission proposes, the EU Parliament accepts, THEN it goes to Council, which is one member from each EU member state. Then it goes back to parliament, then it goes back to Council, then if neccessary it goes to conciliation.

    Then if goes to the 3rd reading in parliament, then 3rd reading in council, then if adopted it goes to signing and publication – with an effective date and then and only then it becomes a Regulation. It can be rejected at any stage above before going for signing, and if that happens it is NOT ADOPTED.

    Anything else anyone says is of course absolute DM FUD.

  291. Cactus says:

    Yeah, maybe with the increasing drop of licence fee/tax monies collected from Scotland, the BBC may find it cost effective to just shutdown their Glasgow outpost and return their broadcasting to their head office in London, then rename their head office to ‘BBC UK’ (but only for achwile.) Thereafter it’ll be BBC England.

    When we WIN our independence, BBC England will still be allowed to broadcast their signal to Scotland, just as much as Scotland’s independent broadcaster will speak to the World.

    Would make for some Lovely luxury flats on the Clyde, that auld BBC building there. Ye can even change the position of yer own venetian blinds.


  292. Liz g says:

    HYFUD @ 12.49
    Yes it was only the Scots who voted in 2014.
    But what you haven’t addressed is.
    Why, was it” —Not — ONLY the voting Scots who were involved in the Campaign?

  293. yesindyref2 says:

    And by the way in spite of having done research on how the EU operates, as per my blog which I’ll maybe update with the EU regulation procedure, I personally have still NOT decided on EU versus EFTA plus EEA or even without EEA, and do NOT intend doing so until AFTER a YES vote, when inevitably there will be a referendum on precisely that issue.

    What is noticeable is the increasing numbers of people posting on these boards with misinformation, disinformation, trying to create divisions where they don’t exist, and sowing FUD, in their last desperate atttmpt to reverse the steady flow to a YES majority, as evidenced by the last poll.

    Well, you FUDders are losers, and the UK will soon be history.

  294. Liz g says:

    Cactus @ 2.17
    Em… Hello Sailor…
    Never thought I’d say that to you… I was thinking mair. Howdy friend??

  295. Cactus says:

    And what is this Glasgow Greengate news of our national flag being selectively disallowed into the grounds for a public event.

    That’s our Green, the People of Glasgow own it, it was given to us, for us, by us.

    Food for thought Chris Cairns…

    *BBC Proms in the Park – Glasgow Autumn 2018, Scotland*

    Music fan: “ahm looking forward to the music ra nite”
    BBC Steward: “tickets please… a quick search please sir…”
    Music fan: “aye nae bother pal”
    BBC Steward: “is that A SALTIRE FLAG I see before me?!”
    Music fan: “eh, aye pal, how?”
    BBC Steward: “no saltires allowed, you can’t take it in”

    ~ moments later… same as above ~

    BBC Steward: “is that a UK union flag I see before me?
    Music fan: “eh, aye pal, how?”
    BBC Steward: “no problem, just checking, enjoy the show”

    Upon independence…
    Our Green will be a day and night, of blue and white, that’s right.

    As will our Freedom Square be.

  296. Cactus says:

    Hey Liz, a sailor aye was and continue to be. We used to ride the Clyde up n downstream… tie off at the quay wall sometimes, climb up the rails and go for lunch at the Springfield, then back over n doon tae the watter.

    Used to get some surprised looking people hehe. 🙂

    Hope yer havin’ a bonnie weekend xx

  297. twathater says:

    Jesus people go on about disruptors of threads , and then respond to a total brit nat numtie whose ONLY interest is disruption and rabbiting on about the ukay ( read engerland ) people focus , this tube only comes here to disrupt and massage his SIU credentials , as proven he ain’t no friend to indy

    WULL upthread I have read some of your comments in the past so I know you’re not at the windup , but I totally disagree with the SNP supporting a brexshit ref 2 , Scots have made their views CLEAR , they voted to remain it is not up to the SNP or us to save the english from themselves , FFS they would’nt even listen to Nicola when she tried to give advice , and do you honestly think the brexshiteers would applaud any SNP SG interference , I could go on but I think ANY support by the SNP SG for a brexshit2 ref would damage the SNP massively with REAL independence supporters

    IMO let them stew in their own shit decision

  298. Liz g says:

    Cactus @ 3.40
    I am my friend… A Bonnie time right enough..
    Right back at ye.. Hope tae see ye in Edinburgh!!

  299. Dr Jim says:

    @Liz 2.12am

    That’s why I wouldn’t make a good politician Liz I would apply it to British Nationalists, I can’t stand a single one of them anytime anywhere,lying gutless useless thieving argumentative Bastirts and I have no patience for them like every other normal person whose countries gained their Independence from them, and that’s an enormous amount of people around the world and I’ve met a lot of those people in a lot of those countries

    I don’t object to misinformed folk or misguided folk just the militant la lala la fingers in their Britnat ears types
    who believe they’re superior to the rest of the world, they deserve the pain they would inflict on others

  300. K1 says:

    Concur wi those speaking about the disruptor on this thread, for those unsure about his motivations and…for the avoidance of any doubt, he’s very graciously already provided his ‘mission statement’ on a previous thread:

    ‘HYUFD says:
    2 September, 2018 at 5:18 pm
    The Tories got a higher voteshare in 2017 across the UK than the SNP got in Scotland at the general election which really says it all.

    I will of course never apologise for having pressing the Unionist case hard, if you do not like that as a diehard Nationalist, tough.

    HYUFD says:
    2 September, 2018 at 5:24 pm
    I could of course not care less what anybody on this forum thinks, I came here to press the Unionist case hard and take on the Nationalists (and any party which puts National identity first is by definition Nationalist). Notice the brilliant Ruth Davidson by taking a tough hard approach to nationalists has seen her party’s vote surge, she is undoubtedly as tough a Unionist leader as Salmond was for Nationalists

    HYUFD says:
    2 September, 2018 at 5:29 pm
    You will no doubt whinge as ever about Scotland’s woes despite the fact it now has its own Parliament which decides most Scotgish domestic issues and representatives at Westminster too. The Tories have of course halved unemployment from 2010 and reduced the deficit too but that is a different matter however no doubt you will whinge about that too’

    Of course it’s up to everyone to make their own judgement on these things as always…if ye feel we have the time to waste in ‘debating’ wi that on here, when it’s already established without a doubt what he is doing on here. Then by all means ‘sharpen’ yer points…but please be aware there is absolutely no other reason than those he himself has stated for his being on this forum. And those of us who have already engaged will not be joining you in hauners wi this one from here on in. 🙂

  301. Liz g says:

    Dr Jim @ 4.04
    Ah.. Yer probably right Dr Jim…
    I’ll stop indulging him.. it’s annoying too many people I respect and that I really want to talk to.
    And it takes us nowhere anyway,he’s just repeating Better Together crap that’s been debunked a million times..

  302. Dorothy Devine says:

    Dr Jim , Liz , Mr Peffers , Cactus and all – do you lot never sleep?

    Vampires? have to be in bed before sunrise??/

    Glad you are there !!

  303. Ghillie says:

    Woooh hooo!

    I managed to get a copy of our new Sunday National 🙂

    Petrol station, Cannonmills, Edinburgh still had 6 copies.

  304. Fillofficer says:

    Didn’t Donalda make reconcilliatiary statements when she took the helm.
    I honestly think, despite honourable intentions, your time was ill spent at pacific quay.
    When I think of the millions of tourists who come to our beautiful country
    Each year,who might catch a snippet of “the news where we are”
    & leave with the impression that we are a waste of space, as we are portrayed, day & nightly by
    Our lovely neighbours.
    Empty jestures I believe
    Wait till ref2 kicks off
    Then we’ll get the picture

  305. Breeks says:

    wull says:
    8 September, 2018 at 10:51 pm

    Excellent move by the SNP to support EU Ref 2, if that is indeed what they are doing. This is a genuinely principled stance, showing that the SNP does sincerely want the whole of the present UK to ‘remain’ within the EU. Alone of all the Parties the SNP remains fully consistent with herself and her declared policies….

    Rare to disagree with you Wull, but I do over EURef2.

    The SNP has a pristine democratic and consitutionally robust mandate to defend Scotland from Brexit already. To concede that hard won ground and roll over for another EU referendum is ducking the fight.

    Scotland has given the SNP the Brexit mandate, a majority at Holyrood, and wall to wall representation at Westminster. You really want another mandate after squandering the ones the SNP has been given?

    I say we win Independence with the Constitutional mandate we already have, or stand aside to make way for somebody else who will defend Scotland’s existential sovereign constitution come what way, and is not hostage to an ephemeral political majority.


    (Not you personally Wull).

  306. Ken500 says:

    The Tories have done nothing but tried to ruin the economy. With in fighting trying to be PM. Who wants the poison chalice? The Brexit shambles. Sanctioning and starving people. The universal credit shambles still playing out. It will finish them off. Another Poll tax. Scotland will soon be gone, thank goodness, as the young people come along. The Tories have just put up the debt. Johnston for PM. He is a laughing stock and would not last an hour. The trouble he has caused worldwide, especially with the Russians. An imbecile.

    Alex Salmond has been treated extremely badly. Leslie Deans will have to resign. Scotland has one elected FM. It does not need another one on a bigger salary. Alex had better be at the AWPR opening. Others trying to take the credit, He got it built. He has done so much for the SNP, the NE and Scotland. A world ststeman.

    Rennie is an exhibitionist, trying to grab stupid headlines,The LibDem caused the mess colluding with the Tories, Kirsteen Hair trying to renegotiate policies the Tories brought in. For cheap publicity. It just shows up their incompetence.

    When Scotland is Independent, most at the BBC will get the sack. They are useless, ignorant and ill informed. That is probably what drives the dribble. What they are worried about. Themselves and their over rated salaries. Totally incompetent.

  307. Robert Peffers says:

    @Dorothy Devine says: 9 September, 2018 at 6:56 am:

    ” … Dr Jim , Liz , Mr Peffers , Cactus and all – do you lot never sleep?”

    For my part I do sleep – but when the old body lets me. I can often sleep best while sitting propped up in the big armchair.

    Thing is that no matter what position you lie down in you have to lie on an arthritic joint, or six. So it’s now sleeping in instalments.

  308. galamcennalath says:

    Nana says

    Blind deal Brexit beckons

    ” The political declaration which will accompany the withdrawal agreement will say very little about the shape of the future framework of the UK-EU relationship. It will include lots of warm words, but no substance. Of course, that means that we are most likely heading towards a ‘blind’ Brexit, and we will leave the EU without knowing where we are heading.”

    I’ve been saying for months that’s most likely where we are headed. It ticks a lot of Tory boxes ….

    – it achieves Brexit
    – it prevents ‘no deal’ Brexit
    – it achieves a transition period to give more time
    – it makes a nonsense of a pre Brexit referendum on ‘final deal’
    – it might get Labour backing or abstention

    … most of all perhaps ….

    – it makes IndyRef2 less likely pre Holywood2021

    Then again, it may not happen, however I think a lot of Tories will see it as the best possible solution from their perspective.

  309. Les Wilson says:

    Bit of a shenanigan going on via twitter about Saltires being stopped at the BBC Proms in Glasgow. Whether or not that was true, what is definite, was there was very many butchers aprons on show.

    This is just the start, to create division and many more events will follow, using any pretext they can think of.

  310. Valerie says:

    Watched the C4 Ballymurphy Massacre documentary last night, and quite a few tweets last night shocked at actions of British Army in NI.

    The tip of the iceberg. Nana has put the link up at 9.06 on Scottish TV. Well worth a watch. They are just getting an inquest next week, so a lot of focus will be on that.

  311. Ken500 says:

    The British State occupation of Ireland was horrendous. The crimes they committed in Ireland are too numerous. The illegal Partion. Led to years of troubles. Still going on. They can vote to reunite.

  312. Nana says:

    Al Jazeera Investigations – Censored

    HMRC admits it spares the rich and well connected the embarrassment of court action but clamps down on the rest of us. According to HMRC, “it makes financial sense”
    Article behind a paywall

  313. Cod says:

    Cubby @ 5.15pm

    Ah, there we go – I knew someone would not fail to disappoint me. People like you are the reason it’s been so difficult to get the Yes vote past 45%, because you are compliant with the overall media narrative – one who attacks their own, who frames their argument in an us vs them manner, even within the Yes side.

    For your information, since you already clearly missed it in my original post (hint, it was in the first paragraph): I’ve been advocating for Scottish independence for over 40 years, and if there’s any cringe in me, it’s at those like yourself who seem to think the way forward is to lambast everyone, regardless of their actual stance, who doesn’t agree with you as somehow lacking.

    Well, let me tell you son, when I was out there knocking doors for a Yes vote, when I was writing Yes posts and poems and debating people before the 97 referendum, when I was gutted when the 79 vote was stolen as a result of chicanery even I understood as an almost teenager, where was that cringe? And where were you? Assuming you were around you were probably harrassing people on your own side, for not prostrating themselves before your own viewpoint. There will be none of that from me, I’ll tell you that.

    I’ll happily vote Yes again, as I have done every other time I’ve had the opportunity, but, although I agree that there is a bias at the BBC, as I have made clear, both now and in the past, here and elsewhere, that’s not the same as a conspiracy at BBC Scotland (or are you really saying that every single person employed by BBC Scotland votes no? Maybe you think there is some kind of secret vetting of political viewpoint before a job is granted?), I won’t be making that a mainstay of my efforts to convince No voters to vote Yes, because it’s a pointless distraction – there are far more important issues to be engaging with them on.

    So, to wrap up, you can take your accusations of cringe and shove them, hard and fast, where the sun don’t shine.

    Oh, and good use of the principles of argument in your response. Nice to see application of the idea of addressing the argument rather than firing off irrelevant ad-hominems. Oh, wait….

  314. Capella says:

    @ ronnie anderson – archived article here ronnie:

    Daily Record and the search for a “split” in the YES movement. #SNPCivilWar

  315. Ghillie says:

    Whoa Cod, that had a pretty heavy bullying feel to it. And in fairness, I’d be pretty pissed off if anyone said I was cringing too. We’re all on the same side here (and those who aren’t wish they were =) )

    Good point that statistically there have to be folk within BBC Scotland who support Independence. I for one am just not feeling it yet.

    Ball is in their court. Let’s see what they do with it.

    But they’ll need to be quick. Real quick.

    In the words of a dear Winger, Peace and Love =)

  316. HYUFD says:

    Ken500 Not without the support of the Protestant community they can’t, and indeed in the largest county in Northern Ireland, Antrim, there is still a strong Protestant majority and every constituency is held by the DUP.

    Northern Ireland was only created in the first place as the Protestant majority counties threatened a civil war rather than being forced into the new Catholic majority Irish Free State, the latter ultimately becoming the Republic of Ireland. Of course there was a civil war for a time anyway between the pro Treaty Collins forces and the anti Treaty De Valera forces but had the Ulster Volunteer Force got involved too it could have gone on for decades

  317. HYUFD says:

    Dr Jim That is not really correct now is it, we have a constitutional monarchy now and when was the last time the Monarch refused to sign an Act passed by Parliament?

    The Queen is also of course a direct descendant of Mary Queen of Scots through James 1st of England and VIth of Scotland

  318. Daisy Walker says:


    Article 10 of the EU Human Rights Act protects your right to hold your own opinions and to express them freely without government interference.

    This includes the right to express your views aloud (for example through public protest and demonstrations) or through:

    published articles, books or leaflets
    television or radio broadcasting
    WORKS OF ART, and
    the internet and social media.
    The law also protects your freedom to receive information from other people by, for example, being part of an audience or reading a magazine.

    Are there any restrictions to this right?
    Although you have freedom of expression, you also have a duty to behave responsibly and to respect other people’s rights.

    Public authorities may restrict this right if they can show that their action is lawful, necessary and proportionate in order to:

    protect national security, territorial integrity (the borders of the state) or public safety
    protect health or morals
    protect the rights and reputations of other people
    prevent the disclosure of information received in confidence, and
    maintain the authority and impartiality of judges.
    An authority may be allowed to restrict your freedom of expression if, for example, you express views that encourage racial or religious hatred.

    However, the relevant public authority must show that the restriction is ‘proportionate’, in other words that it is appropriate and no more than necessary to address the issue concerned.

    Using this right – example
    This right is particularly important for journalists and other people working in the media. They must be free to criticise the government and our public institutions without fear of prosecution – this is a vital feature of a democratic society. But that doesn’t prevent the state from imposing restrictions on the media in order to protect other human rights, such as a person’s right to respect for their private life.

    What the law says
    Article 10: Freedom of expression

    1. Everyone has the right to freedom of expression. This right shall include freedom to hold opinions and to receive and impart information and ideas without interference by public authority and regardless of frontiers. This Article shall not prevent States from requiring the licensing of broadcasting, television or cinema enterprises.


    I watched in outrage when 2 Police Officers were instructed to remove the Saltires from 2 women in the audience at the Common Wealth Games. This was unlawful under the above act.

    What it should have done, however was to provide the SNP with legal ammunition to take the BBC to court under the above legislation.

    In Perth a resident with a prominent window at the corner of Old High Street and Caledonia Road was hounded by Council officials – to remove very large (and inspiring) YES posters, and then a poster for Pete Wishart.

    I’m not sure, but I suspect, the above legislation was NOT used to fend them off.

    Of course they could argue that in large events where alcohol is being served, such flags could provoke disorder, in much the same way licensed premises prevent football colours.

    Firstly it would be up to them to provide this as a defences, and prove it was proportionate.

    Secondly – the displaying of Union Jacks within the venue would indicate out and out discrimination.

    The fact that the BBC is operating a policy designed to suppress a national emblem while promoting another, is the first trick any colonial power undertakes. It doesn’t come any more biased than that.

    I’m quite sure that the next event, where all the Yessers are attending with their Beautiful ARTISTIC Saltires at the ready, will provide a wealth of Video Evidence, (aren’t camera phones wonderful) and our Elected Reps will be champing at the bit, to finally have some legal power to their elbow, to take on the BBC Bias.

    And it will require for our elected reps to take this on. Taking on a breach of EU law is something for the institutes to do, not individuals.

    There was a Taxi Driver in Dundee who was displaying a YES sticker in his cab in Indy Ref 1. When challenged he pulled out a written copy of the above legislation. He’s a hero.

    I’m also sure that any Police in attendance at such an event will be made clearly aware of the legal realities of the situation and not be caught out doing the Beeb’s dirty work for them again.

    We keep wringing our hands and moaning about the Beeb. With this they’ve handed us clear cut legal ammunition.

    Best wishes to all.

  319. HYUFD says:

    galamcennalath That is quite likely based on the direction May is heading for with perhaps a Unionist majority at Holyrood in 2021

  320. Cod says:


    Sorry, I’ma tad confused – are you saying that my comment had a “heavy bullying feel” to it?

    I’m genuinely confused if you are, I can’t see it, and it was in no way intended to come across as such. Angry, annoyed, and disappointed, yes, bullying, no.

    I don’t geniunely expect to see much change in BBC Scotland coverage of the arguments, because, as I noted before, BBC Scotland is the equivalent of the Scottish Labour party in terms of being subservient by neccessity to the London headquarters. The fact that people in BBC Scotland actually complained to London is surprising enough, given careers and salaries involved.

    I just don’t see it as a relevant battleground – either the bias is there and it’s not going to change, or it’s not. Wasting time arguing about is pointless at best, and counterproductive at best (not that I object when sites like WoS point out the contradictions), particualry when you are stepping outside the closed loop of Yes voters, and trying to change the minds of No voters and the undecided.

    Starting your conversation off with accusations of bias and conspiracy at the BBC to someone you’re trying to convince they should vote Yes next opportunity is a surefire way to get them to tune you out. There are actual issues which people care about, like currency, the economy, our place in Europe, representation that is relevant, no matter the policital party you support, and a million others, which are more important.

    Sure, the bias which appears so prevalent in both the press and broadcast media can, and should, be touched upon, but it doesn’t merit more than that. After all, anyone who expects the mouse to vote for the mousetrap probably should stop being such an ingénu!

  321. HYUFD says:

    yesindyref2 So the EU decides the regulation and it is then imposed on the nation state, does the nation state get any further say in it? No

  322. defo says:

    No doubt it’s been said above, but..
    Back to basics.
    Indy is an existential threat to both the BBC and the Established order.
    Anyone thinking this doesn’t set the tone needs their head examined.

    Well worth engaging with them anyway Kenny. Well done sir.

    ps I can’t help thinking, that a meeting a couple of years ago with Boothman (spit) would have been kind o different. 😉

  323. Famous15 says:

    Independence is the normal condition for a country.Our current aberration will not last.

  324. Thepnr says:

    I thought we’d heard just about every kind of possible Brexit deal but it seems not. Two of them from Nana’s links were completely new to me and come directly from The Brixiteers Giant Book of Fairytales.

    “The EU is still insisting the backstop must be in the legal text of the withdrawal agreement, but it is now being suggested that the agreement could be accompanied by a non-binding political statement to be agreed with London, that would say the backstop would never be needed because it would be superseded by an eventual trade deal.”

    This next “plan” is in no way wishful thinking, No Sirree.

    “One British suggestion, which has not been formally tabled, is indeed, a “bridge”.

    At the end of the two-year transition period, instead of the backstop kicking in, there would be a “bridge” to the point at which the new free-trade agreement is signed.

    During the bridge the UK as a whole would remain in the customs union and single market for goods.”

    Then they all lived together happily ever after so they did.

  325. Bobp says:

    HYUFD. so westminster decides the regulation and it is then imposed on Scotland. Does Scotland get any further say in it?NO

  326. HYUFD says:

    Bobp No Westminster gets no say in the Regulation either, it is decided by the bodies of the EU then imposed on the UK

  327. Ken500 says:

    Rewriting Irish history. The Irish wanted Home Rule/Independence. The movement was led by Protestant landowners because the Catholics had no rights, the Partition was illegal. A Home Rule Bill was supposed to be passed two weeks after the start of the 11WW, so it was delayed. It would have become Law. Independence just a step away. The Partition was illegal.

    The Catholics were totally discriminated against in NI supported by Unionists at Westminster. Not following UK Law but a Law unto themselves. Catholics were not allowed to vote in parts of Belfast until the 1960’s. Bernadette Devlin. Totally discriminated against in jobs and the allocation of public housing. The DUP are still at it. Being bribed to keep up a Tory government in Westminster. It wasn’t so long ago the Maj was apologising,

    Demographically Ireland could vote to reunite. Just as Scotland will vote for Independence.

  328. Bobp says:

    Dont know how to show links, 9 hours ago on sky, but anyone googling ” police plan for civil unrest after no deal brexit” Apparently they plan to call in the military in case trouble over food and medicine shortages. The thin end of the wedge?.Scotland beware.

  329. HYUFD says:

    Famous15 Bavaria, Venice, Naples, the Maharajah states in India, all examples of former countries which are now parts of larger countries

  330. Gfaetheblock says:

    Les Wilson at 9.35

    There was no ban on saltires at the proms and plenty on show at Glasgow and royal Albert Hall.

    Sandra white has been pushing this on Twitter, no idea if she isn’t telling the truth or not, but the evidence is clear that there were flag of all nations at the proms.

    Odd that an SNP MSP is going to a singalong of land of hope and glory, rule Britannia and the like is it not? Looking for offence?

  331. Reluctant Nationalist says:

    Cod, the time for a meaningful conversation with the Corporation has long passed. I think avoiding the ‘conspiracy’ element in your efforts to persuade people is probably wise, though. God speed.

  332. Jack Murphy says:


    “Police plan for civil unrest after ‘no-deal’ Brexit” 🙁

    OUT with the Tories, Theresa May, Ruth Davidson and all the other Tories in Scotland ASAP!


  333. Liz g says:

    Gfaetheblock @ 12.09
    I’m guessing that it will be the flag poles/canes that will be the issue.
    Some sort of health and safety thing..
    Which mibbi some security personnel either can’t or won’t apply common sense too, and confiscate the pole only!
    So it’s not necessarily lies.. but also not an actual bann

  334. yesindyref2 says:

    “No Westminster gets no say in the Regulation either, it is decided by the bodies of the EU then imposed on the UK”

    NO it is NOT decided by the “bodies” of the EU, it is decided by the elected MEPs of the EU, and ALSO the elected Ministers of the 28 members of the EU. All must agree for it to become a Regulation.

    So no, it is not imposed by the Commision as you and the Daiky Mail like to try to fool people into believing, the Commission has absolutely no power to do any such thing.

  335. HYUFD says:

    Ken500 No, most Protestants in the Protestant counties of what became Northern Ireland were not landowners.

    Funny how you see it as fine for Scots to pursue self determination if they vote for independence and fine for Catholic Irish to pursue self determination and form the Irish Free State and the Republic of Ireland but not fine for Protestants in the Protestant majority counties of Northern Ireland to pursue self determination and stay in the UK as they overwhelmingly wished to do? If Catholics or Catholic majority counties want to join the Republic fine, they cannot force Protestant majority counties like Antrim and Down to follow them against their will

  336. ronnie anderson says:

    Cappella ma bad ah should hiv archived it but hey its the day of rest , brain still sleeping lol. That story only scratches the surface the Ego’s of Auob ( Scotland Ltd ) need to be exposed to the Wider GrassRoots movement who they depend upon for support of the Marches .

  337. Iain mhor says:

    HYFUD on piecework again, gotta pump those numbers up – those are rookie numbers.
    Yer name is weel kent, I’ve read ye afore on politics. Ye used to manage 30 each across a wheen o platforms daily.
    Ye should be 75 minimum here for a solo gig.
    Nae copypasta fae the other threads either mind.
    I used tae work a quarry and they’d shift the bonus tonnage furrit every time we knocked oor pan in hittin the numbers fur a week. So we jacked in tryin.
    I kin only hope…

  338. HYUFD says:

    Yesindyref2 So representatives of one member state can easily be overruled by the other MEPs of other member states or Ministers in the Council of Ministers as well as the Commission.

    Thankyou for the confirmation

  339. laukat says:

    There won’t have been a ban on the saltire at the proms last night just an attempt to ‘equalize’ the amount of saltires to union jacks so that the viewer is left thinking that Glasgow is equally comfortable with the union jack as they are with the Saltire.

  340. HYUFD says:

    Iain Mhor I represent only myself and have a day job and am not going to spend 24/7 tweeting and arguing on forums like this. That does not stop me doing so in my free time when I feel like doing so

  341. yesindyref2 says:

    So representatives of one member state can easily be overruled by the other MEPs of other member states or Ministers in the Council of Ministers as well as the Commission.“”

    No. For a unanimous vote any Minister can block any regulation, and for QMV 13 out of 28 can also block any regulation.

    Thankyou for the confirmation

    I didn’t. You continue to post garbage, no matter how many times you’re proven to be wrong. But then that’a all Unionists have to offer, lies, distortions and negativity.

  342. Capella says:

    @ ronnie anderson – no problem 🙂
    We need to beware of attempts to cause splits IMO.
    Beware of infiltrators, agents provocateurs and oddball psychos who just want to be the centre of attention.
    Beware of Darkness (Gerorge Harrison)

    There’s a bigger prize within grasp.

  343. Abulhaq says:

    BBC bias doesn’t stop at politics it extends into every aspect of its output. Disagree with the current metropolitan social liberal agenda and your opinion will be considered ‘phobic’. The bias is overt and culturally skewed to England’s Oxford-London-Cambridge golden triangle.
    This is a matter only independence can effectively address.
    Links between BBC and GCHQ?

  344. Brian McGowan says:

    Let’s wait and judge the BBC by its actions. That’s usually the best way I’ve found.

  345. yesindyref2 says:

    You see the thing is that many Brexiteers like HIFUD don’t really understand the EU, they’ve been fooled by the anti-EU media into a whole set of beliefs that have false premises.

    For instance, many think the EU Commission (EC) is directly capable of setting regulations, and is a totally undemocratic institution. But that isn’t so. The Commission is controlled by the Parliament, and legislation can originate viat that route, but it must also be approved by the Council – which is 1 Minister (and vote) per member state. and then there’s this:

    The European Council mostly takes its decisions by consensus. However, in certain specific cases it decides by unanimity or by qualified majority (see The Council). If a vote is taken, neither the European Council President nor the Commission President take part.

    and it is at this stage that small States – like Scotland – can actually have more influence than larger ones, as, if it comes to a vote, their – our – vote is needed.

  346. Cubby says:

    Dear Mr Cod@10.33am

    I have read your initial comments for a second time. I stand by my comments. A load of codswallop showing a cringe mentality.

    I have also read your follow up comments. Please note that I don’t get bullied and I don’t care for bullies. “People like you” – “son” . Want to read again your second comments. You seem to be pretty good at the ad Homs yourself. Something about sticking it where the sun doesn’t shine.

    Also I don’t lambast everyone as you said.

    The BBC is the British state propaganda broadcaster. It is part of the BBCs duties to safeguard the Union. The clue as has been pointed out many times is in the name – British.

    I have never mentioned conspiracy theories. In fact you go on to talking about tactics for convincing voters to change to yes. None of which is material to the initial post where you said – ” I don’t think the BBC is inherently anti independence”. Really! – you rightly expected people to criticise this comment and I was and am happy to oblige. I am surprised more people didn’t call out this ridiculous statement. You say you were “angry, annoyed and disappointed” – surprising since you forecast a critical response.

    In summary you are entitled your opinion and so am I.

  347. HYUFD says:

    Abulhaq So you want independence to make Scotland more socially conservative as the UK and BBC are too socially liberal? Well Scotland did legalise homosexuality 14 years after England did I suppose and Sunday trading is still banned in the Western Isles

  348. yesindyref2 says:

    Before anyone jumps on me by the way, I did say “Brexiteers like HIFUD” who displays ignorance of how the EU actually works.

    There is a sensible debate to be had (preferably after a YES to Indy) about the relative advantages and disadvantages of the EU, EFTA and the EEA, or even none of the above. But it needs to be fact-based, something Unionists always try to avoid because facts are not on their side.

  349. HYUFD says:

    Yesindyref2 In the absence of consensus QMV is the default decision making process in the Council for approving EU regulations after the Nice and Lisbon Treaties, as a result individual nations can easily be overruled, especially as the most populous nations still get most votes

  350. galamcennalath says:

    Ken500 says:

    The Irish wanted Home Rule/Independence.

    A majority across the island certainly wanted Home Rule, while of course NI Unionists didn’t.

    Whether a majority wanted Independence is actually unknown. A majority outside NI propbably did support independence.

    A look at the results of the general elections prior to the setting up of the Irish free state you can see opinion. Also, of course, only men voted and not actually all men.,_December_1910_(Ireland)#Results,_1918#Results

    In 1910 a large majority voted for pro Home Rule parties.

    However, in 1918 the only pro Independence Party Sinn Féin got 46.9% but were unopposed in some additional seats.

    First Past The Post totally distorted the underlying popular vote.

    We live in different times and should be wary of comparing Ireland 100 years ago to Scotland now. However, it is worth bearing in mind that Ireland achieved almost independence as a dominion in 1922 with a small majority within the Free State itself.

    Ireland is portrayed then as being Unionist versus Pro Indy. It was more complicated. There was a rift between Home Rulers and Pro Indy. Then there was a rift between Pro Treaty Free Staters and Republicans. The Civil War which followed caused more death than the struggle with UK authorities 1916-1921.

  351. Dr Jim says:

    Edinburgh AUOB march set to be the biggest on record with supporters of Independence reportedly travelling from all parts of the country as Scotland awakens and SNP membership continues to climb with no sign of slowing down

    BBC Scotland reports Nicola Sturgeon Scotlands First Minister announcing Scotlands new world leading precision medicines agency while Liberal Democrat Leader Willie Rennie was protesting the improvement of education standards introduced by Deputy FM John Swinney by drawing on the pavement with some chums

    Sky News reports both Labour and Tory parties infested by far right wingers racists and anti semites in an interview with Chuka Ummuna

    In the light of some of todays news even though the media are salivating over the prospect of the extreme right wing of politics gaining a foothold anywhere in the British Isles and beyond one wonders at the incomprehensible reasons anyone in Scotland would still have for supporting these clearly out of control and dangerous parties

    So c’mon Scotland you can make a mistake but only ten percent are idiots so mistakes can be corrected, but remember in England ten percent of them are idiots too and that ten percent is more than Scotlands entire population so why take a chance on another country’s nutters when we’ve got enough of our own to sort out

    Time for the big YES!!!

  352. Bobp says:

    Auld highlander 1.04pm. Thanks for that link, i’m still learning lol.

  353. Clootie says:

    The BBC changing behaviour is as likely as Hassan paying his bet debt.

    I was planning to go to an event coming up when I discovered Gerry Hassan was one of the speakers. Cancelled my plans because I cannot stand his pretend interest in Independence. He is Labour through and through which also probably explains why he hasn’t paid up.

    Gerry is working to spin all discussions towards….”we could achieve that under a Labour Government” – don’t trust him

  354. Effijy says:

    We have already judged the BBC by their actions and its a unanimous verdict that they are guilty and their sentence has been passed.

    No more will they remain at liberty to distort the truth and corrupt democracy.

    OT See the Redcoat Sunday Mail front page and they are having yet another front page attack on Alex Salmond.

    It seems that Alex isn’t hiring private detectives to forensically examine the background of everyone who donated to his Fight for Justice Fund.

    One person named seems to have a questionable past.

    I’d say everyone guising as a journalist at that Rag, especially those behind the national fraud the Vow, and the Vow delivered have questionable pasts and should have been incarcerated long ago.

  355. Golfnut says:

    ‘re, proms on the green

    On site private security have pretty strict regs on how they operate. No matter how small or temporary the contract is, there has to be site instructions agreed and signed by the provider and the customer. If there was an instruction on removal of flags, then it should be contained in the site instructions. Any security officer carrying out any action on site must be covered for insurance purposes by those site instructions.
    So who was the employer, who was the supplier, was the instruction to confiscate flags in the site instruction.

    This was a public event and covered by insurance. That insurance would have been invalidated if security were operating on a nod and a wink.

  356. ronnie anderson says: Please Share . Neil Mackay has in the past made claims that he founded Auob , lies from the start of his involvement .

  357. Fred says:

    Counties are not countries, Antrim & Down are anomalies whose time has gone, a united Ireland is inevitable, their misguided loyalty is not reciprocated & the English are more interested in Gib’ than so-called Northern Ireland.

  358. yesindyref2 says:

    especially as the most populous nations still get most votes

    Yet another piece of ignorance I already pointed out referencing my blog (see website above) which references the EU website itself, so now it becomes a lie. here’s what actually happens with QMV – and note also my above posting where it says MOST is done by concensus – i.e. without even going to a unanimous vote or QMV:

    When a vote in the Council (Council of the European Union) is required, some is done by unanimous voting in which any member state can veto it, but 80% of EU legislation is voted on by a qualified majority. This uses the double majority rule which requires both a majority of at least 55% of member states (16 out of 28), and a population majority of 65% or more. So 13 member states voting against can block legislation – no matter how small they are. For non legislative votes, a simple majority of 15 out of 28 member states is enough. The Council can vote only if a majority of its members is present.

    Abstention: Unanimity requires everyone to agree or abstain from voting. An abstention under qualified majority voting counts as a vote against. Abstention is not the same as not participating in the vote. Any member can abstain at any time.

    I’ve done with this HIFUD, work to do, you are just going to repeat lies or misconceptions until you’re blue in the face. Anyone reading these posts will be able to clearly see that by now.

  359. Jock McDonnell says:


    Maybe we should just accept the BBC is a unionist stakeholder and bias is inevitable, I’d rather not give credence to their cloak of neutrality or objectivity.
    No drama, just casually comment that we don’t expect them to be anything other than pro-union, its silly to expect them to be neutral, as a British institution.

  360. Thepnr says:

    Now seems like a good time to point new or newish posters in the direction of the “rules” for posting on Wings.

    Nothing wrong either in a quick refresher even if you have read them before. They’re mostly common sense and they’re there so that the readers experience of Wings can mostly be an enjoyable one.

  361. yesindyref2 says:

    @Jock McDonnell and @Cod
    I found in Indy Ref 1 that most people were aware of newspaper biases, but many of them were surprised when I said after us talking about the papers, that the BBC were also biased. I just suggested they look at reporting of the BBC on an issue they knew about, to see how accurate it was and if it had biases on that, that didn’t fit the facts. Or to research it themselves. It had at least one result 🙂 The rest I have no idea which way they voted in the end, but it’s little acorns. Anyways, I’m off.

  362. JLT says:

    Kudo’s to both you and David, Kenny. To get a 2 hour sit down with Pacific Quay in which you were allowed to air your concerns and grievances is impressive.

    However, no matter their protestations over Ruth Davidson, they, and their colleagues underneath them, haven’t done their jobs properly. They know there is a story there, but basically, they are hedging their bets that with the vast majority of the country not knowing about the ‘dark money’ scandal, they can therefore avoid pursuing Ruth with ‘difficult questions’.

    But the elephant in the room remains – what if it had been the SNP that had used ‘dark money’? Would the organisation have sat on its hands if most of the Scottish electorate had been unaware of such monies? I doubt it. The BBC would have hounded the SNP for answers. Therefore …double standards seem to be in play.

    But as everyone else here states …the only way we can get a broadcaster that is answerable to the Scottish people is through independence. Ian Small and Alasdair MacLeod can state as much as they want that they are not biased and are here to serve Scotland as best they can, but try telling that to their bosses in London. While both men get paid by London, both will obey their BBC remit, protocol and functions as laid out by the upper echelons of BBC Broadcasting House …if not certain departments within Westminster.

    And that is something …that both men cannot deny.

  363. Daisy Walker says:

    Re Saltires,

    Just seen this official BBC tweet/response

    ‘For clarification, no saltires were banned at Proms in the Park last night. Any flag on a flagpole was not permitted onsite due to health and safety reasons @BBCSSO @BBCScotland’

    So folks, now we know, and anyone remembering the bins of Saltires that had to be discarded at T in the Park is just over reacting. But anyway, anyone going to an event now knows, Saltires good, flag poles bad, and cameras to the ready.

    It’s as if, it’s as if, they are aware that under article 10 we have the right to freedom of expression.

  364. HYUFD says:

    Fred County Antrim alone has a population of 600 000, which is bigger than some small and its population will never accept being forced into the Republic of Ireland against their will

  365. HYUFD says:

    Fred Antrim alone has a population of 600 000 which is bigger than some small countries (Antrim and Down combined a population over a million) and its population will never accept being forced into the Republic of Ireland against its will

  366. HYUFD says:

    yesindyref2 ‘…but 80% of EU legislation is voted on by a qualified majority.’

    ‘So 13 member states voting against can block legislation’, so unless a nation can get 12 other member states to back it, it will be overruled.

    I rest my case

  367. Socrates MacSporran says:

    Wingers please – never forget, when anyone from BBC Shortbread tries to say: “We do not protect or soft-pedal on Ruth Davidson,” or: “We always try for editorial balance,” or: “We are not anti-SNP or anti-Scottish Government,” this is a lie.

    These are prime examples of Pacific Quay playing what is known as: “The Mandy Rice Davies Card,” or, to paraphrase that lady herself: “They would say that, wouldn’t they.”

  368. Cubby says:

    Message to yesindyref2

    I thought we were not supposed to feed the British Nationalist trolls on Wings. HYFUD is clearly a British Nationalist troll that you have been keeping well fed.

  369. Thepnr says:

    The second paragraph of Rule No 2 of the “rules” on Etiquette is well worth remembering:

    “If you know what a “troll” is, then you’ll also know that getting you angry and talking about them, derailing the conversation off the subject, is exactly what they want.

    Email us about suspected trolls if you want. But don’t engage them in debate if you doubt their motives, and DEFINITELY don’t engage in on-thread discussions about whether they’re a troll or not.”

    As I said earlier, mostly common sense.

  370. Robert Peffers says:

    @Jock McDonnell says: 9 September, 2018 at 2:02 pm:

    ” …

    ” … its silly to expect them to be neutral, as a British institution.”

    Oh! Get real, Jock, this is, BBC Scotland you are talking about. It is not either BBC UK or BBC England, BBC Wales or BBC N.I.

    Nor is it BBC Channel Islands or BBC Manx. If it is anything like a true title it should be BBC against Scotland.

  371. Valerie says:

    A lot of naive diddies on Twitter saying the govt can’t just put troops on the street (in response to the story about Brexit chaos)

    They obviously weren’t paying attention when the Henry VIII clause was passed last year.

    They seem to be in denial.

  372. Fred says:

    When Northern Ireland was invented, Ulster had too many potential republicans so three counties were dropped to give this gerrymandered statelet a Protestant majority. The present stalemate in Belfast is due to this gerrymandering at last coming undone, demographics will be N.I’s undoing. Heavily subsidised Antrim & Down, outside of the EU, are not a viable entity. The English couldn’t give a monkeys! I’ve been listening to pish like yours since schooldays!

  373. Being invited to the BBC reminds me of that old saying step into my parlour said the spider to the fly also during Ireland trying to get their freedom at the begininning people were writing to the press there was no online then and some one said writing letters won’t won us our freedom ???

  374. Abulhaq says:

    Within the last 18 months or so I recall a BBC executive blandly stating on radio that it is the rôle of the corporation to promote and defend the British Union and not to aid or give succour to bodies or individuals seeking to do otherwise. That was the BBC’s default position.
    Cannot find references on the net to the occasion, unfortunately.
    BritState paranoia re Russia, Iran and Syria is dutifully expressed by the corporation. We may expect the same should independence move closer, as it now seems, to realisation.

  375. Thepnr says:

    Next Friday parliament once again goes into recess and they’re not due back until Tue 9th Oct.

    Everything’s fine though, they’ve got Brexit covered. Don’t Panic!

  376. Maria F says:

    HYUFD says:
    8 September, 2018 at 9:08 pm
    You say:
    “Failure of logic there, firstly you say ‘EU Ref2, as most Britnat Remainers probably envisage it, would be merely another opportunity for Scotland’s wishes to be overruled by England!”

    And how exactly is that a failure of logic?

    In June 2015, the SNP supported by Plaid presented a bid in the UK parliament asking for a quadruple lock in the vote, in a way that only should the 4 nations of the Uk vote to leave the EU, the UK would leave the EU.

    Considering the difference in populations in the 4 nations of the UK and considering the increasingly diverging political trajectories followed by those nations, you would think that in a democracy in the 21st century, that quadruple lock would be the minimum that should be established to ensure a democratic vote of the 4 nations in absence of blocking minorities or qualified majorities, which of course the British nationalists in Westminster left out.

    Well, guess what? The British nationalist MPs in the UK parliament, a majority of them representing England’s seats of course, voted this bid down, basically forcing Wales, NI and Scotland to vote as England’s regions/colonies and by doing so, denying a properly democratic vote to the people of Scotland. This at all effects, was denying the people of Scotland their Claim of right, because such a vote restricted their ability of choice to only being able to have whatever it is the England had chosen: that is not exercising true sovereignty. Just to confirm this would be the case, a majority of England MPs denied Scotland its Claim of Right by overruling Scotland’s democratic vote to remain in the EU and forcing it to leave the EU against its will and without its consent.

    Now, what exactly makes you think these ridiculous “people’s vote” that labour PP and LibDems are attempting to peddle would be any different? It will not simply because Scotland’s assets are far too valuable and without its control England is going to sink.

    Let’s take a look at chances now: statistics and mathematics tell us that even if the entire electorate of Scotland and NI had voted against Brexit in June 2016, we would still have not been able to change the result. So frankly, what is the effing point for Scotland and NI, which by the way they already voted by overwhelming majorities to remain in the EU, to vote again? None.

    The reality of mathematics here is that unless England changes its vote and significantly (Wales change on its own would not be enough), there is absolutely no point whatsoever for any other nation to participate in the vote. So, in other words, this is a vote for England really. Why? Because for the britnats in Labour, Tories and LibDems, England’s vote is the only one that counts. What is surprising is that those Britnats do not seem to have the balls to ask directly England the question and somehow they always have to drag Scotland onto it. It is almost as if England, always boasting that it is subsididing Scotland and always forcing Scotland to directions it does not want to go, is too chicken to actually have its own bloody referendum. Why?
    At the end of the day, the entire electorates of NI and Scotland could vote against and that would not change the result. So who do they thing they are fooling? And you would have to agree with me that if the entire electorates of NI and Scotland voted the same way, besides being the first case in democratic history when the entire electorate of a country vote the same way, you would have to wonder in that instance, what is the point of calling such referendum.

    Now, if forcing Scotland to vote as England’s colony/region was not enough, just to be sure that England remains in control of Scotland’s assets no matter how stupid England’s political choices are, the door for Scotland to escape this nightmare was locked down by England MPs by denying Scotland a brexit veto (in my opinion in contravention of Scotland’s claim of right) in November 2017. Ironically though, and once again marking just how unequal and how unfair towards Scotland it actually is, England Mps gave themselves the power to veto both England and Scotland from remaining in the EU. Neat, don’t you think?

    So really, what is the point for Scotland in even trying in any future “UK wide” referendum when whatever it is that England votes will be undemocratically forced on Scotland voluntarily or not and in favor or against Scotland’s interests? Why the farce?

    You say:
    “if Britnat Remainers reversed Brexit in EU ref2 that excuse would disappear!”

    So, is stopping Scotland’s indyref by “reversing brexit” the real reason behind “the people’s vote”? That would explain them launching its promotion in Scotland when they should be doing that in England, because as explained above, unless England changes its opinion on Brexit, in absence of a quadruple lock, blocking minorities or qualifying majorities, “reversing brexit” remains utopia.

    Utopia that is not going to happen because England will not vote against Brexit. England is pro-brexit. What this vote will do to Scotland is forcing it to give consent to a deal for England’s brexit by the back door. It is a con, yet another way to ensure England continues happily siphoning from Scotland’s precious resources for a little bit longer.

    It is amazing the lengths the English establishment is going to ensure Scotland does not exercise its right to self-determination by means of an independence referendum. This speaks volumes as clearly indicate that they are not confident at all in winning it, even with the dirty tricks they used in 2014. I do not have a shadow of a doubt that if this “people’s vote” con act fails, the next big thing along would be calling yet another GE in desperation to get Scotland’s consent for Brexit by the back door. Hence Mr Salmond’s smears. They desperately need to thin down the SNP representation in Westminster before the UK Parliament final vote on the brexit deal because they do not stand a chance in hell to get the Scottish parliament to agree to this. Should the numbers of Scottish MPs in Westminster remain as they are with a majority of SNP MPs and if the SNP votes down the deal, we will be before the FIFTH time that Scotland has rejected consent for brexit:

    1. JUne 2016: EU ref – Scotland voted decisively against Brexit by a higher margin than the one by which England voted to leave the EU and by a higher margin than the one Scotland voted to remain in the UK. This means Scotland has not given consent for the UK to leave the EU
    2. February 2017: An overwhelming majority of MSPs in the Scottish Parliament voted against triggering A50. – This means the Parliament of Scotland has not given consent for the UK government to drag Scotland out of the EU.
    3. February 2017: 58 out of 59 Scottish MPs voted against triggering A50 – that equals to no consent from Scotland to withdraw the UK from the EU.
    4. May 2018: Scotland’s Parliament decisively rejected the EU Withdrawal bill proposed by the UK government

    Should Scotland be dragged out of the EU by a majority of England MPs and there will not be doubt then that England has abused the UK parliament to subjugate Scotland into submission violating its sovereignty and Claim of Right, which is upheld by the Treaty of Union 1707. I do not know after such action how we can continue considering the Treaty of Union 1707 as legitimate. Old it may be, but such treaty has to be subjected not only to domestic but also international law, which, according to Wikipedia, says that no one party to a treaty can impose its particular interpretation of the treaty upon the other parties.

  377. frogesque says:

    Heartfelt plea!

    Please use something like when posting 3rd party sites with URLs that take up a whole page.

    It really, seriously screws up the page formatting if you don’t.

    Having a big problem on tablet just now with minute writing in all posts that, yes, can be expanded but then revert back if you so much as breath.


  378. Ken500 says:

    The majority wanted Home Rule/Independence. No wonder. The leaders of the Movement were Protestant landowners like Charles Stewart Parnell.They wanted land reform. The Land League etc. They was a hung Westminster Parliament which gave them the opportunity to further their aims. Lloyd George partitioned Ireland. It led to the death of Michael Collins. The troubles were because of Westminster decisions. They put in the Black & Tans and brutalised the people. Hung the leaders of the 1916 Easter Rising. This increased the divisions.

  379. HYUFD says:

    Fred Antim and Down would have a higher gdp per capita than most countries in the world and if they want to stay in the UK no reason they will not anyway. One thing is certain the people of Antrim in particular and loyalist paramilitaries would rather resort to terrorism again than being forced into the Republic against their will

  380. Tinto Chiel says:

    The Dug savages Bojo:

  381. Dan Huil says:

    @Maria F 3:40pm

    Great post.

  382. Al Dossary says:

    Literally just off the BBC website, upating my wife’s details to “We do not need a TV licence…… My wife was adamant that we do so, as she is sick of the letters. No amount of “they will never stop, do nothing” would appease her so off it goes.

    We have been abroad for almost 5 years now, I gave up with the lying toerags in 2014, and no one even watches the pish now – not my kids (18 and 25) and not my wife when shes back. Netflix and Kodi rules the roost – my wife has even given up on Judge Judy on Sky !

    Just mad that they never came out when I wa home last month.

  383. HYUFD says:

    MariaF Wales of course voted Leave alongside England.

    It is not practical for Scotland to have a veto over Brexit if the majority of the UK voted Leave as it did, if Scotland really refuses to leave the EU then eventually it may have a second independence vote. However that is less likely given we are heading for May’s largely Brexit in name Only, if it was No Deal Brexit then polls suggest even England would then vote Remain, let alone Scotland.

    London and the Home Counties and then most of the rest of the South are by far the areas of the UK with the highest gdp, Scotland comes after them but Scotland is ahead admittedly of the North and Midlands of England, Wales and Northern Ireland and Cornwall. Scotland’s economy gets much of its wealth from Whisky, made in Unionist areas and financial services from Unionist Edinburgh.

    It was the Scottish government which launched an investigation into Mr Salmond’s affairs, not Westminster

  384. Dan Huil says:

    “George Hamilton [Chief Constable N Ireland]said that some Westminster politicians view Northern Ireland as ‘peripheral’

    The Chief Constable has accused some Westminster politicians of failing to understand the dangers of a dissident republican threat in a post-Brexit north.

    In an interview in the Sunday Times, PSNI chief George Hamilton warned the government is failing to prepare for the impact of leaving the EU with regards to peace and security.

    He said some Westminster politicians view Northern Ireland as “peripheral”.

    “There’s a feeling that as regards the Troubles and the conflict, Northern Ireland is sorted and we don’t need to worry about it, when actually we’re working flat out 24/7 to keep a lid on it,” he said.

    He said future physical infrastructure or border officials would become targets for dissident republicans and require police protection.

    “The purpose for which those checking points and border controls would be put in place would become less and less relevant because they would move away from issues of trade or movement of people to old-fashioned security on a national frontier,” he said.

    “That was done during the period of the Troubles rather unsuccessfully, and was sadly the subject of attacks and many lives lost.

    “I have a concern some may see issues to do with the Irish border as literally peripheral, not just geographically but in terms of impact.”

    Irish Post

  385. Dave McEwan Hill says:

    Ken500 at 4.56

    They did not hang the leaders of the Easter Rebellion in 1916. The shot them in twos (and James Connolly tied up in chair because he was too weak to stand up). Sir Roger Casement,who had been in the British diplomatic service, was given the honour of being hanged. To execute surrendered combatants in war is and was illegal.

    This barbaric stupidity by the British military command drove a hesitant Ireland to independence.

    The hated of Britain(England?)in Ireland is deep seated and very well deserved.

  386. Schrodingers cat says:

    There will be a people’s vote. But not another euref. A ge in Oct. Nov will kill this campaign stone dead.Teresa won’t even get to the HOC with her dea?. Whatever it is. Her own tory mps will bring her down. They have started already see no jobs article in telegraph today

  387. HandandShrimp says:

    It is perfectly possible that Chequers with some additional EU suggestions (CU and SM) will resolve the issues and that a deal is struck that calms nerves and the markets. It would almost certainly put an Indyref2 on the back burner initially at least until we see what such a deal entails. Of course there is also the serious possibility that the Tories could fall on each other’s necks. Certainly the UKIP end will e enraged. How Corbyn plays it is also moot. He has so far given every indication of being a bit of Kipper too. Labour too might split vote on the issue.

    Only uncertainty is certain at the moment, of this I am quite certain.

  388. galamcennalath says:

    @Schrodingers cat

    A ge in Oct

    The über right do seem to be flexing their muscles. They want a very hard Brexit with the EU playing a minimal part in England’s future. If they feel that outcome is in danger, they will attempt a coup within the Tory party.

    Tory grass roots probably sympathise with that far right thinking.

    How all this plays out depends on whether TMay continues with this no hope Chequers nonsense, or agrees a woolly fudge ‘blind Brexit’ with EU, or gets dumped if the far right have the numbers, or what Labour does, or …. whether a GE comes out of the chaos!

    I think it may come to a head soon.

    Hope Nicola has her plans in place to maximise the opportunities of each possibility!

  389. HYUFD says:

    galamcennalath Nicola Sturgeon is the Theresa May of the SNP, a legalistic, passionless technocrat interested in sensible government above all without the passionate commitment to Scottish nationalism of Alex Salmond just as Theresa May lacks the passionate commitment to Brexit of Boris Johnson

  390. Shinty says:

    DMH @ 5.25pm “The hated of Britain(England?)in Ireland is deep seated and very well deserved”

    I’ve lived and worked with folk from different parts of the world – believe me, this hatred is not confined to Ireland. The ‘Brits’ are pretty much disliked the world over – and as you say “very well deserved”

  391. HandandShrimp says:

    Theresa May lacks the passionate commitment to Brexit of Boris Johnson

    Her one redeeming feature, Shirley?

  392. Robert J. Sutherland says:

    I find it curious that the BritNats who bang on relentlessly about being “overruled by a majority” in the EU, against all the evidence, and a union from which members are eminently free to leave at any time they please, somehow don’t seem to find it in the least objectionable that Scotland is permanently overruled 10:1 in London and has to politely ask the UKGov “pretty please” if it even dares to think about setting out on its own.

    The stark contrast between the two polar opposite views in the same head must surely hurt in any normal human being. Unless of course the person promoting them knows fine well and is cynically trying to perpetrate a con on the gullible.

    The latter being far more likely, I think. There’s a lot of it going around at the moment.

  393. frogesque says:

    Oh deary dear!

    And yet another verse and chorus of the Hedgehog Song.

    (Terry Pratchett fans will know, for the rest, Google is your friend)

  394. Effijy says:


    Hey You Utterly Futile Deviant!

    Go read your John Bull comics and
    let the grown ups discuss Scotland’s future.

  395. Maria F says:

    HYUFD says:
    9 September, 2018 at 5:19 pm
    “Wales of course voted Leave alongside England”

    And? Take a close look at the electoral figures of England and Wales. What do you see? Wales is roughly just a 6% of England. A change on the vote in Wales only will not change the overall result. England’s vote has to change to see a difference in the overall result. The EU referendum has blown open the cover of fake democracy in the UK and the fact that the vote of Wales, NI and Scotland in “UK wide” referendums and votes is totally irrelevant such is the disproportion in population in England compared with the rest. The EU referendum has revealed to us all that “UK wide” referendums without blocking minorities or quadruple locks are simply England ruling elite’s autocratic tool to force England’s will onto the other 3 nations of the UK.

    “It is not practical for Scotland to have a veto over Brexit if the majority of the UK voted Leave as it did”
    Absolute bllcks. The UK is a union of equals between the Kingdoms of England and Scotland. Major matters such as leaving the biggest single market in the world or not must be done by consensus between the two partners, and not just because England wants. England is not the only signatory of the Treaty of Union and it is not “the UK”. Scotland is the other signatory and as much the UK as England is therefore Scotland has as much right to demand the UK to stay put as England has to demand it to leave the EU.
    What is happening here is that the EU ref has highlighted just how different England and Scotland are and the useless UK government and UK parliament simply do not have the balls to deal with it the proper way. The reality is that England has as much right to force Scotland out of the EU against its will as Scotland has to force England to remain in the Eu against its will: none. But this is not what we see. What we see is England MPs abusing their positions of power and abusing the fact that England has 85% of the seats in the UK parliament to force its rule over Scotland. Why? Because England MPs do not have the balls to confront reality and the fact that what Cameron’s EU referendum has done is to break the union, which remains only in name.

    Scotland has not given consent to leave the EU, therefore the UK should stay put. A50 should have never been triggered as the Uk gov did not have consent from the sovereign people of Scotland to do so. If England and Wales are so desperate to leave the EU, then they can dissolve the Treaty first and then leave. Without Scotland’s consent, England and Wales’ MPs do not have mandate to drag the UK, a union of equals, out of the EU, never mind the Single Market or Customs Union.

    Scotland must have a brexit veto simply because it is not England’s property, because of its Claim of Right and because the sovereignty of Scotland lies on the Scottish people and not a bunch of England MPs.

    “if Scotland really refuses to leave the EU then eventually it may have a second independence vote”

    Well, that is the thing. The “Scotland independence referendum vote” is simply used by the coward English establishment as an excuse to avoid facing the people of England and ask them the question that need to asked:

    Do you rather dissolve the treaty of union to leave the Eu or do you want to remain in the EU to preserve the UK?

    That is the question that needs to be asked here. Why? Because Scotland did not vote against the Status Quo. England and Wales did. Scotland is not who has to pick up the pieces that England and Wales broke. Scotland did not put the permanence of the UK in jeopardy. England and Wales did. If the UK was the democracy Labour and Tories tell us it is, then the referendum should be happening in Wales and England, not in Scotland.

    But the English establishment, and that includes Labour, Tories and LIbDEms, will never grow the balls to confront their constituents in England and ask them the question. Why? Because if they ask that question then they have to implement the result and they cannot face it: they will not be able to have both brexit and UK, or it is one or it is the other. They cannot override England’s vote like they did with Scotland’s without risking their own seats, and the cowards cannot face it.

    It is convenient for the English establishment to move the attention from a referendum in England and Wales to a referendum in Scotland. Why?

    1. Because The population of Scotland is much smaller and controllable with propaganda than that of England – What is the proportion of people from the rUK in Scotland compared with England?
    2. Because they can influence an contain and control the referendum better than they would in England. In fact, had they not have the level of gerrymandering and control they had in 2014 and we would be independent now.
    3. They can focus on the SNP as “the opposition” in Scotland. There is no bogeyman they can focus against in England: Labour, LibDems and Tories are part of the establishment

    “we are heading for May’s largely Brexit in name Only”
    I don’t give a toss what type of Brexit we are heading too. It is Brexit and my country, Scotland, did not vote for Brexit nor it gave consent for it and that should be respected if this is the union of equals we were told it was. Besides we were promised devo max and become the most devolved nation in the world. Well, time to deliver it. It is not for a bunch of England MPs not holding the mandate of a single vote from Scotland to decide what Scotland does or not. It is for the people of Scotland to decide.

    “if it was No Deal Brexit then polls suggest even England would then vote Remain, let alone Scotland”

    Scotland does not have to vote remain. Scotland has already voted remain in 2016. There is absolutely no justification whatsoever for a repeat vote in Scotland. If England and Wales want a repeat vote, then let them have it. Scotland does not need to be dragged into this futile vote on which it will not have any influence and in which it will be forced yet again to vote as England’s colony. The vote that matters now is the vote of the UK parliament upholding the brexit deal (if these shower of idiots manage to get any on time) or not. That is the moment when we may see yet for fifth time how Scotland denies consent for brexit and how it is subjugated by a UK parliament that is acting as an absolute ruler over Scotland without mandate or consent and in direct contravention of Scotland’s claim of right.

    “London and the Home Counties and then most of the rest of the South are by far the areas of the UK with the highest gdp”

    And? Are you trying now to wheel a smokescreen to cover the fact that the English establishment are bricking it at the prospect of losing control of Scotland’s precious assets? Don’t bother. We have eyes. We have calculators. Scotland is a very wealthy country that is on course to become energy self-sufficient and that is being ransacked and drained of wealth by a hungry England that has an eyewatering deficit of trade of goods. The union is convenient for England because in that way it can suck most revenues from everybody while dump part of that deficit, part of its debt and part of the costs for its own vanity projects onto everybody else.

    “It was the Scottish government which launched an investigation into Mr Salmond’s affairs, not Westminster”
    The Civil Service is very much part of the UK government, HYuFD, not Scotland’s government. The permanent Secretary is a figure of the UK government. Who do you think you are fooling here?

    By the way, how is the investigation in finding the source of the most recent leak that not only put in evidence the inability of the Civil Service in Scotland to protect confidential information of sensitive nature, but also completely compromised its political impartiality by allowing a leak of confidential information to be used to smear a politician? I mean, it is not the first time, is it? I still remember memogate.

    So, are we ever going to hear anything else about this investigation, or is going to be carefully suppressed by the MSM and the Civil Service?

  396. galamcennalath says:

    HYUFD says:

    Nicola Sturgeon is the Theresa May of the SNP

    I have met Nicola, she comes across as a very warm and people orientated person.

    I haven’t met TMay. Never will. She accepted a poisoned chalice no one else would. I suspect her underlying honesty puts her in a difficult position trying to front so many awful Tory policies and this results in her being camera shy. I feel no sympathy for her because as a member of the modern Tory party, she has chosen to align with the ‘dark side’ of human nature.

  397. Dave McEwan Hill says:

    Shinty at 6.38

    Exactly. I was overseas for 15 years meeting people from all around the world and had to keep explaining that I was not English

  398. mr thms says:

    Unlike the Scottish Parliament, the Welsh Government has given its consent to the UK Government’s EU Withdrawal Bill, which recently received Royal Assent.

    I notice the Welsh Government’s equivalent of the Scottish Government’s EU Continuity Bill received Royal Assent in June!!!

    This is very odd since the reason for referring it is the same reason given for referring the Scottish Bill to the Supreme Court. A decision is expected in October.

    “Law Derived from the European Union (Wales) Act 2018”

    What is going on???

  399. Ken500 says:

    6 of them were hung. There was a recent programme. ‘Who do you think you are’. Boy George relation was married to one of them. Maybe not the leaders but those involved. 20 year old. The wife was pregnant. Lost the baby and died young. He wrote a poem. Really sad. Senseless and wasteful. Cruel.

  400. Jason Smoothpiece says:


    I see there are serious splits emerging in the Tory party, the May faction having a go at the Boris faction.

    I say Ruth Davidson for Prime Minister, or Gordon Brown, doesn’t really matter both would help the cause of independence.

    There’s always Jacob Reece Mogg but …no thats too much.

    Better together?

  401. Shinty says:

    Sums it up well here and the reason I never watch terrestrial TV

    from wings twitter

  402. Liz g says:

    Mr Thms @ 7.13
    That is a really funny one Mr Thms.
    Wales should not need that bill if it’s going along with the Westminster one!
    And I understand that it very close to our Continuity Bill!
    Curious right enough …. and worth watching!

  403. Maria F says:

    mr thms says:
    9 September, 2018 at 7:13 pm

    !I notice the Welsh Government’s equivalent of the Scottish Government’s EU Continuity Bill received Royal Assent in June!!!…
    What is going on???”

    Very simple, MR, the EU continuity bill of the Scottish Parliament refers to powers that control some of Scotland’s most precious assets, like fishing and farming. Assets that without a doubt, the England MPs currently in government want to use for some kind of deal. So there you have it: England MPs are desperate to seize control of Scotland’s assets. It very much looks like Labour, Tories and lIbDems have been telling us porkies all along: Scotland is not a basket case after all, but rather the partner in the Uk that holds most natural assets and keeps the real basket case in the UK going.

    Judging by the desperation of England MPs to seize those assets, it is also looking like England cannot keep afloat, even with all the hot air of its MPs, without tapping onto Scotland’s revenues. The UK is nothing without Scotland.

  404. wull says:

    Breeks says:
    9 September, 2018 at 7:59 am

    ‘Rare to disagree with you Wull, but I do over EURef2.’

    Hi Breeks,
    Thanks for your post, which I certainly appreciate. Healthy disagreement is just that – healthy! And positive. Anyway, I think our ‘disagreement’, real though it may be in detail, will not turn out to be all that deep, in practice.

    Events will play their part in determining what happens next, and I agree that your proposed scenario is more likely than mine, and may well be the most sure way to secure the outcomes we both desire.

    I fully agree with you that we / the SNP / the Scottish government DOES have the clearest of mandates for Indyref2, as things stand, and should not be timid in acting on it.

    And I also agree that we should be ready for the ‘off’. Once the signal is given, we should go for it, without reserve.

    My guess, moreover, is that that is the most likely thing that will, in fact, transpire. Even if the SNP does come out fully behind an EU-Ref-2, that does not mean she will get it.

    Indeed, if the SNP do put their full support behind an EU-Ref-2, that might well decrease any chance of ever getting it! Ever agin’ the SNP, it will only stir further the resolve of the Tory and Labour leaderships against allowing any possibility of Brexit being overturned.

    For them – even those of them who originally supported ‘Remain’ – whatever the SNP says is automatically wrong. So it becomes all the more likely, even just to spite the SNP, that they will stick to their present ‘Brexit means Brexit’ stance. If they will thereby be shooting themselves in the foot yet again, especially in regard to Indyref2 – well, so be it.

    Why should we care, if our cause profits from their mistakes?

    The SNP and all other independence supporters will then be able to say to the anti-IndyRef2 Parties: ‘we offered you the olive branch – you could have removed the reasons that make Indyref2 a necessity, by holding EU-Ref-2 and winning it (with our support) for ‘Remain’ – but you refused to take that opportunity’. So … Hell mend you, IndyRef2 remains a democratic necessity. It cannot be ignored in a country that claims to be a democracy.

    So … all the more reason why IndyRef2 cannot be avoided, or closed down. The Scottish Government is now obliged to introduce it, in order to fulfil the mandate on which it was explicity elected. Confirmed, moreover, by Act of the Scottish Parliament. We have explored every possible avenue to make this unnecessary but you – the Unionist parties – have blocked them all. The Scottish Government is obliged to follow the clearly indicated democratic will of the Scottish people in the circumstances which you, the Unionist Parties have brought about, and hold a second independence referendum within the lifetime of this present Holyrood Parliament.

    The case is already full proof, I agree (or should it be ‘fool proof’ since even a fool can understand it?), but it will become even more so in this way.

    I fully expect that the Brexiteers in both the Tory and the Labour Parties will stick their heads in the sand. They will ignore all calls for EU-Ref-2 (not least because of their fear of a UKIP revival, as I explained in one of the posts above), and succeed in ramming through their ‘Brexit at all costs’ nonsense. In doing so, they will have shown their preference for Brexit over the (UK) Union.

    Their priorities will be clear, and it’s not us! No more love-bombing the Scots … (Narcissus is too busy with himself … Preoccupied, in fact …)

    They will actually have shown, still more emphatically than ever, their contempt for Scotland. Deliberately ignoring the chance to remove the need for IndyRef2 is likely to drive still more Scots into the Indy camp.

    If so, the so-called Unionists’ ever more explicit stubbornness, their determination even to ignore Scotland (and therefore the very foundation of the UK Union they purport to love) will have served our cause well. For, consequently, more and more Scots will see through the utterly fake nature of the UK Union, which serves only England’s interests. And we will win IndyRef2 even more handsomely than we would have done otherwise. (And the SNP’s objective, I am sure, is not just to win IndyRef2, but to win it well. They don’t want to just scrape over the line (though if necessary they would take that) but, rather, to get at least 60% and preferably well above that, nearer the 70s). They want to win emphatically.

    Of course, there is a (slight) risk that one of the two big UK Parties (Labour is the more likely) would turn its ship around, and support EU-Ref-2. I don’t think that this will happen – not while Corbyn remains leader, at least (it would in fact be in his interest to do this, but he is too blind to see it) – but it could. Even if it did, the SNP would not be worried by that, for such an outcome can also serve well the independence cause.

    If it did, and Remain won EU-Ref-2 not only in Scotland but even in England, and overall, it is true that IndyRef2 would be postponed (but I don’t think it would be for long), but so too would the prospect of a hard border when england and Scotland do finally separate. That is in any case the least likely result an EU-Ref-2 would produce.

    The far more likely outcome would be that ‘Leave’ wins overall again (perhaps by an even bigger margin than before) but Remain wins in Scotland (also, quite possibly, by substantially more than the 62% achieved the last time).

    This would immediately trigger Indyref2. It would make it even more necessary than it already is.

    The condition for preventing Indyref2 would not have been met. That condition was that the Unionist Parties – with SNP support, duly given – would deliver an overall ‘Remain’ majority, with the result that Brexit is called off, and Scotland (together with the rest of the UK) remains within the European Union. No other outcome would respect the democratic will of the Scottish people. And the SNP would all the time insist on that respect being given.

    Basically, EU-Ref-2 would put the English electorate in front of a choice. Which do you value more? Brexit, or keeping Scotland within the Union, (at least for the time being)? And that is both truthful and realistic. Quite simply, that IS the choice before them.

    I am pretty sure I know what the preference of the English electorate would be. In the end, Brexit will be more important to them than we are.

    There might not even be a need for IndyRef2: the choice will already have been made in EU-Ref-2. Scotland will have opted to ‘remain’ a European nation, and England – the other party to the Treaty of Union – to ‘leave’, and walk away from being such. So it will be the parting of the ways of the two nations who once formed the Unite kingdom. The Treaty of Union will have been ‘de facto’ dissolved.

    I agree that all this may sound too speculative, and even too theoretical, but I don’t really – realistically – think it will come to that. The SNP (I think they have already indicated this) ‘will not stand in the way of’ letting the English people have a chance to change their mind on Brexit. I expect, however, that the English people’s political leaders will have none of it. They will not let their fellow English people have a second bite at the cherry.

    It will all be dressed up in the name of ‘democracy’, of course. but, as usual, it will be the English political elites having their way, whether the people like it or not. They will say the people have already made their choice, so – stuff them! – there is no turning back. If they don’t like it, they’ll just have to lump it.

    That – BREXIT – is what the political leaders of the English people really want (and also what the most influential part of that shadowy thing ‘the establishment’ which stands behind them wants as well), so that is what the English people will get. ‘We’ know what’s good for them … (and ‘we’ know they’ll go along with it – with what we have decided for them – anyway …).

    And, consequently, very ironically … Guess what? The Scottish people will get what they want as well. No doubt, to the chagrin of the aforementioned ‘establishment’, but – hard one though it is – it is a price worth paying for Brexit. Namely, IndyRef2.

    Once won – and you are right, Breeks, we have to be ready for it – that Indyref2 will guarantee Scotland a positive relationship with Europe. Which England doesn’t want, and will lack.

    The exact nature of that relation of Scotland to Europe can be decided later, after independence is gained. Whether that will be as a full member state (certainly my own preference and, I think, by far the most likely outcome) or in another, Norwegian-style single market / customs union arrangement … To be seen!

    Well, Breeks, that was just to share something of the way I am thinking. One thing’s for sure – whatever happens, we are very much on the same side. Once more, many thanks.

  405. Maria F says:

    Jason Smoothpiece says:
    9 September, 2018 at 7:31 pm

    “I say Ruth Davidson for Prime Minister”

    Not immediately. She needs to get hold of an English MP seat first. I don’t think Boris is going to get it. I think all his gaffes and affairs in the press are really scare tactics to make us feel better about any other tory mediocre candidate they choose to catapult to the driving seat because “at least is not Boris”.

    Like Chomsky once suggested, only a very small proportion of the population is really concerned about extramarital affairs of politicians. When they publish that in the press is because they are suppressing something else far more important. What? is the question.

  406. mr thms says:

    From the link in my last post..

    “The Bill enables the Welsh Ministers to legislate to maintain regulatory alignment with the EU in order to facilitate continued access to the EU market for Welsh Businesses. It also creates a default position in law whereby the consent of the Welsh Ministers will be required before any changes are made by UK Ministers to devolved legislation within the scope of EU law.”

    I can’t see how the Supreme Court can now side with the opinion of the Presiding Officer of the Scottish Parliament when another devolved part of the United Kingdom has already passed similar legislation BEFORE the EU Withdrawal Act became law.

    Seems to me, with regard to Wales, the UK Government has agreed that Wales is in a union.

    With regard to Northern Ireland the Chequers agreement has conceded that it can remain in the Custom’s Union and the Single Market and I can see, should the Supreme Court agree the EU Continuity Bill is perfectly valid, the UK Government conceding Scotland should also have the same deal as Northern Ireland.


  407. yesindyref2 says:

    The problem is that a troll isn’t someone who has a different view, a troll isn’t someone who has different beliefs, and a troll isn’t someone who argues their case, no matter how badly and negatively, or trying to put words in people’s mouths they didn’t speak (or type), even if they do use Fear Uncertainty and Doubt. And a troll isn’t someone who states very clearly that that is what they are here to do.

    They’re the opposition, the other side, and there are plenty out there on forums, above and below the lines, and on the likes of the BBC – mostly as guests.

    But by popular request I’ll refrain from engaging, and instead leave the assertions, the wrong information, the false information, unchallenged for all to see. Which means they win the point by default.

  408. HandandShrimp says:

    Which means they win the point by default.

    Not really, it is a bit obvious (as in obvious troll is obvious).

  409. Dave McEwan Hill says:

    Ken500 at 7.14

    Yes,six lesser rebels were hanged quickly before the process was halted and the leaders were tried and sentenced to shooting.

    The leaders, great and brave men many of them, were shot and their bodies flung into an unmarked pit and covered in lime.
    How many of our daft Brits have the slightest idea what the evil imperial empire did all around the world?

  410. Liz g says:

    Yesindyref2 @ 8.37
    Or… and with this one in particular..
    Wait till the thread has moved on and go back and correct the information.
    Brian Doonthetoon keeps an eye out for this as they like to leave the last comment.
    I do it too when I remember.
    Brian, me and K1 kept this one on an old thread for 2 days

  411. Macart says:

    Just this really.

    It’s not about ‘we can’ or ‘we should’ anymore. Self government is about ‘we must’.

  412. Dave McEwan Hill says:

    What a good read the Sunday National was. A very good start indeed.

  413. Robert Peffers says:

    @HandandShrimp says: 9 September, 2018 at 6:05 pm:

    ” … It would almost certainly put an Indyref2 on the back burner”

    I’d bet a quid to a pinch of Sh Err! – Snuff, that if there was a decent YES to indy majority shown in the opinion polls there would be an indyref called.

    That was what Nicola said – if there was either a significant change or a significant majority of Scots calling for one the SNP would call it.

  414. yesindyref2 says:

    @Liz g
    Indeed. I’ve also done the odd bit of thread tidying, sometimes it’s 5 or 6 articles back, or even more.

    The knockdown dragout thing I don’t even do on MSM forums any more, make a post, maybe reply to a reply and that’s the lot. Or reply to a comment, maybe reply to the reply and the end. Mind, there was an exception on The National which I doubt was read by any more than the two of us. Ho hum.

  415. Ian Brotherhood says:

    Below is a link to the crowdfunder for the new Yes movement pipe band but it happens to be named s.a.o.r. a.l.b.a. and that won’t publish here because it’s banned, so please just replace the asterixes as required if you want to see the page.

    Currently has 2k of 15k target.

    Good luck to them!


  416. defo says:

    Good choice YIR2
    No they don’t.
    Don’t rise to the baiting, no matter how much of a master u r!
    U2 RP. esp U

  417. Ian Brotherhood says:

    Here’s the blurb from the crowdfunding page for the pipe band –

    The Grassroots Yes movement are badly in need of a Pipe Band! , not our words, that of thousands who attend marches and event for Independence.

    A small group of dedicated Independence supporters got together recently to discuss this very issue and at the end of a week of discussions and Facebook chat. Over 80 musicians have come forward from every corner of Scotland, and together we threw some ideas around, chatted loads and discussed the finer details of a Pipe Band. The result of all that, and the fantastic musicians who have shown their support, was the formation of S*** A*** Pipes & Drums.

    The band will strive to play at any Independence event we are asked to attend, and will make appearances at all of the large marches, with the march organisers consent of course.

    So after a week we have 30 musicians, we now have 80+, and we would like them all to look the part as well as sound it. We have something in mind for a basic but fantastic looking uniform, but would like to keep it as a surprise for our first outing, we also need to purchase equipment, like drums, harnesses, drum skins, chanters reeds, plus fund transport costs to marches and events.

    We hope to expand the band further and hopefully when other musicians hear about this very exciting project for the Yes Movement, they will come and join us on the march for independence.

    We ask your help to make this dream a reality, help us get a Yes movement band “on the road”. Every penny counts and every donation, like and share is very much appreciated.

    The Independence supporters really want this band!

    Some Independence supporters put it together! We kindky ask the Independence movement throughout Scotland to support our project and help us get the first ever, Scottish wide independence supporting pipe band, S*** A*** Pipes & Drums marching on the road to FREEDOM

  418. yesindyref2 says:

    @Liz g
    Anyways, it did give a chance to post how QMV works – and when – for any casual reader who might be interested. And for me it means I have to rewrite the bit on my blog to emphasise that QMV happens in only a minority of cases.

    The concensus stage is where the horse-trading starts, and since 13 of the EU member states can outvote the other 15 (blocking legislation) if it ever gets to a unanimous vote of a QMV vote, that’s where they really score on things that are important to them.

    So for instance Belgium with less people than the big 3 or 4 can get what it wants, just be hesitant about giving consent. But so also can Luxembourg, Bulgaria, and even Malta with a population of just 440,000. Scotland would also simialry be very powerful in those scenarios – better fishing quotas? Talk to me!

  419. yesindyref2 says:

    If this was a QMV, then there are few against me replying, and the rest abstained, so are counted as against, so if the proposed legislation was that YIR2 should respond to the poster on this, the proposal would fail and the legislation not be adopted 🙂

    Ho hum!

  420. HYUFD says:

    DaveMcEwan Hill The British Empire also gave its colonies the rule of common law, Westminster style democracy and stopped widows being thrown on funeral pyres in India etc.

    Of course it had its faults too but compared to say the Spanish Empire, the Nazi Empire, the Aztec Empire, the Roman Empire, the Mongol Empire etc it was relatively bloodless and of course the Scots played a pivotal role in the British Empire too, many key generals, merchants, expolorers, administrators, traders etc in the British Empire were Scots

  421. North chiel says:

    “ MariaF @0651 pm “. Bang on the money here. What a terrific post ! Yes indeed , Scotland as a signatory to the “ union” with England has decided to remain in the EU . If the U.K. leaves on “ the back of English votes” on 31-3-19 then the “ union is broken” as of this date. No ifs or buts from Rennie , Davidson , Leonard, and their ilk . Let me repeat , the Union is broken, over , finished as of 31-3-19.

  422. Cadogan Enright says:

    Not impressed

    Until the BBC start to mention that Scottish figures for public services iare better managed than those in England when slating Scottish public services, there can be no believing the BBC

    – crime historically low in Scotland BUT out of control in England where some crimes no longer investigated
    – police numbers at historical high in Scotland, historical low in England
    – 55% of kids go to 3 rd level in Scotland, 45% in England
    – NHS stats vastly superior in Scotland than other 3 UK nations
    – fire service reorganised and better paid in Scotland, in chaos in England
    – teacher pupil ration far better in scotland
    – taxes on average lower in Scotland
    – GP ratio to patients much better in Scotland

    And so on

    Pay you TV licence here to get a summary weekly and stop watching the BBC

  423. Ken500 says:

    London voted Remain. Many of the Tories constituencies. May, Johnston. CBI has warned of the dangers of Brexit. Midlands voted for Brexit. Car manufactures are relocating. 15% fall in car manufacturing. Financial, banking firms relocation. Rees Mogg firm relocation to Irish Republic.

    Farague is in Australia. Emigrating?

    £ going down. Increased cost of living. Increased cost of goods. Imports are higher than exports. Deficit balance of trade.

  424. Thepnr says:

    If Boris Johnson refuses to back a plan he was expected to support because he describes it as “MAD” then we should be worried.

    Apparently the plan that the ERG mob led by Rees-Moog included a “Star Wars missile defence programme” in order to protect the country post-Brexit. as well as an “expeditionary force” to defend the Falklands.

    I’m not sure if these examples were the actual part of the plan he thought to be mad as it also included the following beauties.

    A “Brexit bonus” would see a Brexit government cut income tax rates, business taxes, capital gains tax and stamp duty rates.

    The only bit missing from the “Great Plan” was what services were to be slashed, benefits abolished and how many actual people sacrificed at the alter of Mammon in order to pay for it all???

    Thankfully Boris thinks it’s “MAD” so probably not a goer and we can all rest easy in our beds tonight.

    Independence guaranteed if these lunatics take over the asylum.

  425. Ghillie says:

    Daisy Walker 11.30 am

    Re Scotland’s Saltires being unwelcome at Scottish concert venue, Glasgow Green, filmed by BBC –

    VERY nicely done Daisy 🙂

  426. Liz g says:

    Yesindyref2 @ 9.14
    We mibbi need some examples of small Countries “getting “ what they want to be able to reinforce how powerful a member state actually is.
    We need to… or will be needing to counter this Germany/ France running the show propaganda!
    You should also mibbi also do a bit about how each Country has their own individual Treaty and what a Scottish one could look like.
    Pointing out that the UK got a really good one… because it had Oil,Gas,good food and drink exports, a stable democracy and strategic defence importance…. to barter with.
    And all of that moves over on to Scotland’s table when we Dissolve the 1707 Treaty of Union

  427. Dave McEwan Hill says:

    HYUFD at 9.18

    Nonsense. Have you the faintest idea of what it did in the Punjab or Tasmania to reference only two of its utter disgraces.

    Fact is it marched in with guns blazing all over the world and enforced UK laws on people who already in many cases had their own administrations. I could go on all night but I can’t be bothered.

  428. Ghillie says:

    Maria F @ 6.51 pm 🙂

    Maria, would you mibee consider sending your excellent comment in to The National to reach their audience too please =)

  429. galamcennalath says:

    HYUFD says:

    The British Empire …. was relatively bloodless

    The British Empire was no better than others.

    Cover up and propaganda has succeeded to leaving almost half of the population still unaware, or in denial.

    The United Kingdom was an aggressive predatory criminal enterprise. The British Empire is something we should all be utterly ashamed of.

  430. HYUFD says:

    NorthChiel If each Home Nation gets a right of veto over Brexit voted for by the UK as a whole, then England, Wales or Northern Ireland of course would equally get a right of veto over Scottish independence which would have to be agreed by each Home Nation

  431. Thepnr says:

    This is the face of elected Tories in modern day Broken Britain. No heart, just greed.

    Lancashire County Council’s 44-strong Tory majority voted through measures to double bus fares for disabled people from 50p to £1, that are estimated to save the council £44,000, just minutes after approving the spending of up to £38,000 on state of the art smartphones for individual use by Councillors.

    To add insult to injury Lancashire County Council ccording to an investigation is “in imminent danger of joining yet another Tory-led council, Northamptonshire County Council, in going bankrupt.”

    Give me strength and let me get out of this corrupt Union once and for all.

  432. HYUFD says:

    yesindyref2 If consensus is not reached it goes to QMV and no country can get what it wants unless it convinces at least 12 other nations, otherwise that nation like a hypothetical independent Scotland would of course be outvoted and overruled

  433. schrodingers cat says:

    galamcennalath says:
    A ge in Oct
    The über right do seem to be flexing their muscles. They want a very hard Brexit with the EU playing a minimal part in England’s future. If they feel that outcome is in danger, they will attempt a coup within the Tory party.

    Tory grass roots probably sympathise with that far right thinking.

    How all this plays out depends on whether TMay continues with this no hope Chequers nonsense, or agrees a woolly fudge ‘blind Brexit’ with EU, or gets dumped if the far right have the numbers, or what Labour does, or …. whether a GE comes out of the chaos!

    I think it may come to a head soon.

    agree with this, i believe that there are a sufficient number of rebels in the tory party, the gallus comments by the brexiteers (bojo etc) would indicate that.

    I also agree with the point about the tory party rank and file being pro hard brexit which will leave the soft brexiteer tory MPs with a problem. how can they back a pro eu tory mp candidate who supports staying in the sm/cu or britain leaving but ni staying in the sm/cu? answer……. they cant. esspecially since only 12 months ago these same soft brexit tory mps were elected an leave the sm/cu manifesto?

    there is also a sizable majority of english voters who do want a no deal brexit as well.

    that is why a new no deal brexiteer will win the challenge against treeza may.

  434. Liz g says:

    Yesindyref2 @ 9.14
    Doesn’t look like my last post is going to show up..

    Anyhoo,I was sayin that you should mibbi give some examples of the smaller member states actually getting what they want?
    Also to counter this Germany & France running the show..
    We need to be pushing that each Country has an individual Treaty with the EU… And the UK got a really good one because it had
    Food & Drink
    A strategic defence position.
    Fishing……. to barter with.
    All of that moves over on to Scotland’s table after Indy!
    So we can and are likely to get a good arrangement with the EU … We are no exactly beggars at the gate here.

  435. HYUFD says:

    Cadogan Enright Scotland trails behind NI and England in the Pisa education rankings

    Also somewhat absurd for SNP supporters to one on the hand say Scotland should have lower taxes than England and on the other hand want to spend more than England, that way only leads to bankruptcy

  436. galamcennalath says:

    Languages throw up some very apt coincidences.

    Faraj ( pronounced Farage) means quite literally fanny in Malay!

  437. Petra says:

    Excellent posts Maria F …….

    In particular this comment: ”…Well, that is the thing. The “Scotland independence referendum vote” is simply used by the coward English establishment as an excuse to avoid facing the people of England and ask them the question that need to asked:

    Do you rather dissolve the treaty of union to leave the EU or do you want to remain in the EU to preserve the UK?

    That is the question that needs to be asked here. Why? Because Scotland did not vote against the Status Quo. England and Wales did…..”


    @ Dave McEwan Hill says at 8:55 pm …. ”What a good read the Sunday National was. A very good start indeed.”

    Great start Dave. Support it folks.


    Well worth our consideration.

    @ Nana says at 5:53 pm …. ”Re this article by MacAlba.”

    Ginger dug replies.

  438. Fred says:

    There was also the “relatively bloodless” Bengal Famine of 1943 when Churchill’s policies led to the deaths of some 3 million people!

  439. HYUFD says:

    Dave McEwan Hill There are more being slaughtered in Myanmar each week now than the colonists ever killed in Australia.

    The fact India still uses UK common law and Westminster style democracy shows it clearly realises they benefited the nation, I have never argued the British Empire was perfect but nor was any other Empire. As I have also pointed out there were masses of Scots involved in running the British Empire

  440. HYUFD says:

    galamcennalath The Mau Mau were carrying out terrorist atrocities, including feeding babies to the wives of Kenyan farmers then killing them too, if India had not been partitioned there would have been a civil war between Hindus and Muslims, there were no extermination camps in the Boer War, concentration camps were used to control Boer guerrillas. It was of course largely the Boers who drove Apartheid once South Africa gained independence from Britain

  441. galamcennalath says:

    HYUFD says:

    right of veto

    No one suggests any one constituent nation should have a say in what any other constituent chooses democratically. Vetos should be on collective action in the style which the EU allows its members for it’s collective decisions.

    Absolutely no one is going to veto England choosing to leave the EU or for that matter the UK. Both of which might well be connected. We would offer our fond farewells bid them good fortune in their ‘travels’.

  442. Daisy Walker says:

    @ Ghillies 9.52pm

    Thanks. The legislation is there. We just have to use it ( and ensure our elected Reps use it too).

    From the Beeb’s update, it rather looks like they ‘long’ were expecting a challenge.

    Hopefully folk here now have the cut out and paste version of how to get the Saltire in and how to challenge any ‘wanker’ wha tries tae stop you.

    Best wishes to all.

  443. Terence callachan says:

    Naivety or what, let’s be clear about one thing , the BBC will always issue propaganda to Scotland that is its prime intention, part of that propaganda includes inviting people to discuss their complaints and promising to change and improve but it’s trickery , the propaganda will never end until Scotland is independent and Scotland controls its own media .
    Only a fool would think otherwise, ask any country around the world, they have mostly been there, done it…

  444. Thepnr says:

    @schrodingers cat

    The blue rinse brigade if they get a chance to vote for a new leader can only vote for who is put in front of them. That can only happen if there are at least two people standing after the Tory Mp’s have their say.

    This is what happened when Theresa May was elected as leader without a vote as she was the sole candidate left standing after Andrea Leadsom withdrew before the final vote went to the members.

    Similarly if the only tow candidates selected by MP’s to be put before the members are Remainers or close to it like Javid then an arch Brexiteer can’t win since there isn’t one in the race. Effectively MP’s have they greater say as to who will be their next leader and not the members.

    What I don’t think neither of us can say is among the MP’s is there more support for a hard Brexit (no deal) or a soft Brexit?

  445. Collie says:

    Trade Unions wanting a second EU Referendum.

    Ask the same Trade Unions if they support a second Scottish Independence Referendum and you will be told where to go.

    This is typical of the hypocrisy within our English based organizations.

  446. North chiel says:

    Perhaps some posters completely misunderstand the treaty of union . There are 2 signatories. “ Each home nation” certainly are not signatories to the treaty of union . End of.

  447. Footsoldier says:

    Read both Sunday National and Herald on Sunday and found them to be satisfactory.

    In its first edition, I couldn’t believe the Herald chose to show letters from two of the regular unionist correspondents that appear in a lot of different newspapers on what looks like a well organised campaign of letter writing on a rota basis.

  448. Hamish100 says:

    hyufd or summit

    “masses of Scots”..” oh dear. Next thing you know they will be invading the border.

  449. Petra says:

    WELL DONE to Kenny McBride and David Hook for using their initiative and taking the time to put their agenda / summary together before approaching the BBC.

    Having now read through all of the posts, I see that some individuals on here are stating or inferring that they shouldn’t have done so: Arranged to visit Pacific Quay. Why not? Nothing ventured nothing gained. And if it all comes to nothing, there is no change, then we’ve lost nought other than THEIR time. And if there is some positive change that is surely in our favour.

    I would also say that this must be a first, that is a top BBC executive inviting people (independence supporters) to meet up with him, and of course with them accepting, to put forward their views / complaints. I’ve also noticed that Ian Small, BBC Scotland’s Head of Public Policy, seems to read the National, as I’ve seen some of his replies to individuals on the letter pages. That’s probably a first too. So is he genuine when he says, ”that some things don’t work very well, need to be improved” … and ”agreed to review Kenny and David’s concerns, look into a few specific issues that arose and get back to them in a week or so to update them on what actions they plan to take?” Or are his hands tied to a great extent by his bosses in London?

    I don’t know what goes on at Pacific Quay but I reckon it’s quite telling when they say that ”the recent correction made on the ‘national’ news about GERS had been as a result of bosses at BBC Scotland yelling at their London colleagues about how important it was to get this stuff right.” So how does this ”stuff’ work? Are they all, in Glasgow, sent their ‘scripts’ on a daily basis from London before reading the news?

    I’m of course one of the people on here who watches BBC and STV news and complains bitterly about the bias. I’ve complained formally and got nowhere and additionally phone the BBC/STV complaints department on a regular basis. Maybe it’s now time to write to Mr Small and point out the strategies that we see being used on a regular basis, such as cherry-picking, omission, confusion, misuse of statistics, demoralisation, gish gallop (during interviews with SNP politicians) and so on.

    And well there are loads of examples we could use to highlight our belief that these strategies are being used. For example we never hear of any positive news about our oil, just about decommissioning (omission). We rarely hear any positive news about Scotland at all (demoralisation), positive news that we can find on sites on a daily basis, such as Professor John Robertson’s. As already stated by Kenny and David many Scots don’t know who’s responsible for what, such as Westminster / Scottish Councils versus Holyrood (confusion). Very confusing indeed and quite often damning for the SNP when they have no control over the issues at all. Are these ‘confusions / omissions’ when reporting the news deliberate? The same of course applies to Wales, as Leanne Wood pointed out recently on QT Wales. The vast majority of people in Wales don’t seem to know who is actually running their country. How bad is that?

    During the Scotland Bill and Withdrawal Bill processes no one in Scotland was informed of what was actually going on, such as one amendment after another being binned by all English Westminster politicians wandering out of bars and restaurants to vote and of the body swerve with the Withdrawal Bill in relation to Scotland and the humiliating 15 minute debate. In saying that Jackie Bird did cover the latter one night near the end of the news in a most ‘convoluted way.’

    Then there’s the follow up to FMQ’s when many of Nicola Sturgeon’s excellent responses to people like Ruth Davidson are omitted (edited out) and we have people like Brian Taylor interviewing politicians and journalists lined up in the aftermath with the usual three or more to one. He knows and we know that the Tories, Labour and Lib-dems are Unionist supporting bodies. London’s branch officers. However many people in Scotland have no idea of who is who (just see a majority slagging off the SNP) and I can see that pointing that out every week would be ridiculous. So why not have an SNP / Green politician discussing the issue with either a Tory, Labour or Lib-Dem politician? Alternating of course.

    There’s the Scottish A&E statistics with no mention that the criteria for calculating the 4 hour waiting time targets differ dramatically in England or that reports of assaults on prison officers in Scotland versus England differ too, that is that if four officers are assaulted at any given time in the same incident it counts as four assaults in Scotland, but one in England. No mention that the harassment policy differs in England either, as Alex Salmond gets named and shamed, whilst his ‘counterparts’ in England remain anonymous.

    And what’s happening to our money? £320 million raised annually in relation to the television license fee in Scotland? Why is 95% per cent of the licence fee revenue raised in Wales spent in Wales, 75% in Northern Ireland and 55% only spent in Scotland with seemingly over 100% spent in England? What’s that all about?

    GERS figures. Experts such as Professor Graeme Roy, Director of the Fraser of Allander Institute, get their say but we never hear, get the counter argument, from people like Professor Richard Murphy who gave evidence of his opinion of GERS to the Scottish Parliament recently.

    Why I wonder was Alex Salmond never given a job by the BBC. They’ve got plenty to say about him working for RT, so why not offer him the opportunity to host his own show in Scotland? Use some of the millions of unspent money every year and more to the point show some impartiality, especially taking into account that nearly half (or more) of the Scottish population support independence.

    Why does the BBC not afford some key members of the independence movement some airtime, such as those who have articles published in the National newspaper?

    And today I see that the BBC Scotland online site is running with a story, ONLY story, about Ruth Davidson: ‘Pregnancy ‘joyous and hopeful.’ Too bad it’s not going to be so joyous and hopeful for thousands of ordinary Scots, due in the main to the Tory Party. Maybe the BBC could get round to questioning her about the dirty money issue (the Constitutional Research Council, the Scottish Unionist Association Trust and the Irvine Unionist Club) and also question her on some of the Brexit issues, such as why her Baker’s dozen in England vote for Brexit when their constituents voted to remain in the EU. The Brexit issue initiated after all by her bosses in London.

    Well there’s loads more I could say, but I’d be here all night. So just hoping now, sincerely, that Ian Small will ‘deliver.’

  450. HYUFD says:

    schrodingers cat No poll has a majority of English voters backing a No Deal Brexit, the ERG only make up about 120 Tory MPs out of 318 at most so May will survive a no confidence vote.

    The UK will still technically leave the single market and customs union but stay aligned to most EU and EEA services and goods rules, it will still be able to do its own free trade deals and a work permit or study place on arrival requirement will be introduced

  451. Dr Jim says:

    The BBC are not biased against Scotland because Scotland doesn’t exist to them, the BBC do their job which is to protect and defend the institution that is the United Kingdom who as far as they’re concerned funds their wages and that corporation and as Alex Massie famously said *and rightly so*

    There are two ways to deal with the BBC, one is to just ignore it, the other is not for us because we’re keyboard tappers and the job of shutting them down or not will be decided and dealt with by others later as with quite a few institutions

    The Edinburgh march is set to become the biggest one yet so if you can, make a point of it and go, many of our representatives will be there so don’t miss it unless you can’t possibly do otherwise

    We’re right on the edge now and Yoonworld doesn’t know what to do about anything because their own English government are tearing at each others throats like rabid dogs and buggering everything up in the process and the Labour lot are going right along with them

    We’ve got this won, it’s just a matter of timing now to twist the knife just right so there’s not a breath left in them

    I’m looking forward post Brexit to the miles of lorries lined up on motorways with all the immigrants who came in jumping on the backs of them to get out of England and go somewhere more civilised, how will the news agencies spin report that comedy, more to the point the foreign press will be filling their papers up with cartoons about them

  452. yesindyref2 says:

    @Liz g
    That’s be a good thing to do, a bit of a challenge though. Don’t even know where to start looking, apart from the Protocols which different states have to give differences from others within the EU.

  453. ScottieDog says:

    “London and the Home Counties and then most of the rest of the South are by far the areas of the UK with the highest gdp,”
    Simply because London and the Home Counties have the highest levels of investment.

    Of course you need a tacit understanding of macroeconomics (not the one fed to you by the bbc). It’s perfectly simple – aggregate spending = aggregate income.

  454. HYUFD says:

    Fred Most of the deaths from the Benghal Famine came from Malaria and other disease, as for grain the Japanese occupied neighbouring Burma and denied rice supplies and there was a shortage of shipping, yes Churchill did prioritise grain to the military and civil service but by 1943 and 1944 increased aid was sent to the area

  455. Petra says:

    @ HYUFD says at 5:19 pm …. ”.. Scotland’s economy gets much of its wealth from Whisky, made in Unionist areas and financial services from Unionist Edinburgh….”

    You’ve shown your absolute ignorance in relation to one issue after another, Mr (or Mrs). Time for you to give up.

  456. HYUFD says:

    galamcennalath The use of QMV in EU collective decisions means that no one EU nation is fully sovereign as a result. Now you may be happy with that but it means a hypothetical independent Scotland would never be fully sovereign and independent in the EU

  457. Thepnr says:

    It wouldn’t surprise me if this whole Brexit fiasco is nothing more than a sham. What is it that the people driving the “no deal” scenario really want?

    Do they really want out of the customs union and single market?

    Do they really care about immigration?

    I don’t know the answers to those questions but one thing I do believe they actually want is out from under the jurisdiction of the European Courts. Most importantly to escape EU banking regulation and they would likely see the repeal of EC Human rights legislation as a bonus.

    That might just about be the sum of it and all the furore over the Irish border, 12% hit to GDP, empty shelves, shortage of berry pickers could all disappear overnight if only they could get rid of that nasty European Court’s steely gaze over the funny money and backhand dealing.

    Nah, on second thoughts they’re probably just batshit crazy.

  458. Dr Jim says:

    @Petra 11.51pm

    Those titles are far too polite Petra

  459. Thepnr says:

    It’s the *ankers again, they’re behind all of this.

  460. rocky says:

    These two #BBCScotland employees don’t/won’t have the power over anything, #BBCLondon decides everything, and nothing will happen!

  461. North chiel says:

    I would “ crawl over broken glass” for a sovereign and independent Scotland within the EU than the
    present utterly despicable colonial “ set up” within the U.K. .

  462. Robert Peffers says:

    @defo says: 9 September, 2018 at 9:10 pm:

    ” … U2 RP. esp U”

    Eh! Sorry but I don’t speak whatever language that is written in, defo.

    As far as I can decipher your gobbledegook it looks like you are complaining about others replying to someone you think is a troll but, far as I know you are not a MOD on Wings. In any case I’ve not replied to any trolls for some time.

    Unless, of course, you mean the false flag Wingers who pretend to support indy but constantly attempt to rubbish the SNP.

    Any way think yourself lucky I could be bothered reading you, (cough!), strange initial comment. If you cannot be bothered posting in Scots or English you do not deserve reply.

  463. Liz g says:

    Yesindyref2 @ 11.47
    I wouldn’t be able to offer any suggestions either..
    Other than your stuff I’ve always been quite ignorant of how the EU works.

    But it would be worth it to be able to paint the picture of the of how we as a Country could be approaching our new relationship with the EU.
    The Art of the Possible,,if ye like!
    Cheesy I know but it’s ment to be what politics is all about.
    A realistic overview…. Not the batshit crazy Brexit promises..
    A Scotentry rather than a Scotexit…

  464. masslass says:

    Petra 11.43pm

    Agree with every word

  465. Liz g says:

    Robert Peffers @ 12.35
    Robert I think that Defo @ 9.10 was being supportive and complimentary.
    I read it as… Even though ye can run rings round them it’s a good choice not to rise to the bait!!
    Jist sayin…

  466. Thepnr says:

    See if you can fathom out what Steve Baker, the former chairman of the ERG before Rees-Mogg and who resigned from the Department for Exiting the EU alongside David Davies really wants.

    It might be a good pointer as to what all arch Brexiteers want.

  467. Meg merrilees says:

    Dr. Jim

    I heard a new one today – apparently all organic food producers and growers will be shafted by Brexit. They will lose their special, premium, ‘Organic’ status and will be unable to export to the EU. They have been told in the Government’s own papers issued last week that it will be a minimum of 9 months before there is any possibility of them gaining any sort of new ‘organic’ status, even within the UK.

    A woman pig farmer was interviewed on the radio and she said it would be worse than the last Foot and Mouth epidemic when, for 6 months, they could not sell any products and had to stockpile everything. She ran out of cash and this woman is running a £6 million pound business in the UK. She said many smaller companies would go to the wall and that it had taken her company 6 years to recoup their losses after foot and mouth.

    What was it Lim Fox said – this would be one of the easiest trade deals ever…

  468. Thepnr says:

    In the same article you can get a laugh at this:

    “Mr Baker said that the ERG had decided to hold back on publication of its detailed plan for the future relationship, in order to focus on the Irish border issue, which he said was the “key to the gate” to a satisfactory agreement.”

    That’ll be the plan to beat May’s Chequers plan that had Star Wars n’shit in it that Johnson called MAD and refused to back LOL

  469. Valerie says:

    Imagine anyone being so disgusting and scummy, to come on here, and lie, obfuscate etc., about the documented crimes of Brits???

    Given the volume of shit emanating from that source, they must be paid by the word.

    Desperate times.

  470. Dr Jim says:

    @Meg Merrilees

    The whole produce thing’s been planned for a few years now and started with Cameron but the plan went wrong when they accidently won the leave vote and now they’re still trying to cobble together something workable but at the same time they know they’re on the verge of not having Scotland to do it with because we can just as easily take it all back again

    They’re stuck between the *Full mental Brexit* (pardon the pun)and the UK break up and which will be worse for them
    Boris and Jacobs little rascals are determined to bluff the whole thing out and then worry about NI and Scotland later
    and if that’s how it goes it’ll be up to us to make sure they lose, but I have the feeling we’re going to get a lot of co-operation from all sources to make it so (another pun) dreadful Star Trek one this time except I don’t think they’re going to live long and prosper out of this

    I’m shutting up with these puns now

  471. Meg merrilees says:


    Surely the deal the EU has supposedly put on the table, which Steve baker is suggesting ‘we’ accept includes the backstop which Treeza May agreed last December but now wants to ignore i.e. N. Ireland remains in the Customs Union which, by necessity, means a border in the Irish sea between the Mainland and N. Ireland, which the DUP would never accept and which Treeza herself has said no UK PM could ever consider that.

    The Tories really don’t care about the Irish border one way or another or even if the Good Friday Agreement is trashed, after all didn’t Rees-Mogg say that ‘..they managed a hard border when they had ‘the troubles ‘ “… and he can’t see why that would be problem again.

    What a complete mess – the labour party is heading for a split, the Tory party is heading for a split, the SNP is supposedly already split, the Lib Dems want everyone to join their party for nothing and vote for anyone to lead. Maybe Corbyn and May should swap parties…

    He wants to Leave but Labour wants to Remain; she wants to Remain but the Conservatives want to Leave; Vince Cable wants to stand down and leave the Lib Dems leaderless; Ruth is about to go on Maternity leave; Boris is in kamikaze mode.
    Blimey !

    Sort this one out Rev and tell us who/what is going to prevail.

  472. yesindyref2 says:

    The UK state is a purple banana.

    And with that simple totally incomprehensible statement, I’m as accurate as any commentator “out there” could possibly be.

  473. Ghillie says:

    Meg merrilees @ 1.04 am and Dr Jim,

    Could they mibee label their produce as ‘Formally Known as Organic’?

  474. Petra says:

    @ Dr Jim at 12:03am …… “Those titles are far too polite Petra.”

    Yeah just trying to keep my cool Dr Jim, but it seemed to work, lol. Or was he just knackered spouting guff? Let’s see if we’ve to suffer another “invasion” of him / her today.


    I see that Theresa May, with Philip, has been creeping around Scotland again. Last look at Scotland? Ta, ta oil, gas etc.

    She’s been meeting up with Queenie and Charlie. I wonder what they’ve been discussing? Attended Crathie Church with them. Time to put the hard border in place.

  475. Dorothy Devine says:

    For all the discussion on the Irish border , with all its inherent difficulties to put it mildly , it isn’t the only problematic ‘ border’ and no-one seems to have mentioned the plight of Gibraltar in a very long time – or have I missed this solution?

    I watched the programme on Ballymurphy and was horrified by my lack of awareness at the time . My only excuse being that I believed the news of the time and everything done in the name of Queen and country was true. Changed days.

  476. Petra says:

    @ masslass at 12:50am …… “Petra – agree with every word.”

    Thanks for that, masslass.

  477. HYUFD says:

    ScottieDog No because London has the largest financial centre in Europe, as well as one of the largest legal, IT and creative arts sectors and the Home Counties are commuter belt for London

  478. sassenach says:

    One thing about HYUFD – the fact his/her ‘name’ is so easy to spot, due to the ‘all capitals”, makes it easier to just scroll on by!!

  479. Nana says:

    To discuss a very busy week, guest presenter, Corri Wilson is joined by James Dornan MSP and Ronnie Cowan MP.

    On Monday, we are hearing from @NFUStweets @TheAHDB @FDFScotland & @scotfooddrink. You can watch the session live:

    Smyllum nuns spend more on legal fees at Scottish Child Abuse Inquiry than compensation alleged victims will receive

  480. Nana says:


    Peston writes
    As part of no-deal Brexit contingency planning, British businesses are being asked by the government to list their “critical” import/export needs

    Boris Dead Cats HAVE SUCCEEDED

    A leaked report shows police fears that a “no-deal” Brexit would lead to a shortage of goods, resulting in civil disorder.

  481. Nana says:

    The EU is preparing to give its Brexit negotiator new instructions to help close a deal with Britain, in a conciliatory move that will bolster Theresa May as she suffers savage attacks from Brexiters at home.

    Brexit: clash of the pygmies

  482. Robert Kerr says:


    My thoughts exactly about the Capitalised Britnat Tory,

    I do scroll by.

    Pleased he/she/it has not succeeded to disrupt this thread which is about BBC bias.

    The fact that this thread is really the first that he/she/it has been active on tells us a lot about sensitivities of the Britnats.

    Thank you for your welcome links Nana as always. Educational and wide reaching as always.

  483. Hamish100 says:

    Hyufd seems to think london is in contol of world events. Delusional lol

  484. Macart says:

    The truly depressing and frankly insulting part of where we find ourselves today? Is that neither the UK state’s representation or their British Nationalist support, are willing to own responsibility for it.

    Scotland’s population were promised a very different future four years ago. There was going to be, not just job security, but greater opportunities. There was going to be an economic safety blanket in times of hardship. Devolution was not just going to be enhanced, it was going to be the nearest thing to a federal solution possible in this ‘union’ (IF EVER THERE WAS AN EMPTY MEANINGLESS PHRASE?). The permanence of the Holyrood Parliament was to be legally enshrined in the UK’s constitution. Only by voting NO could Scotland ensure its permanence of place within the EU. Scots were asked to lead with… into the future. Oh there were specific assurances t’boot, depending on what industry you were representing. I’m sure the yards have a memory or two of pledges made but never kept and the oil industry.

    Thing is. Just where is the apology that none of the above came to pass? Where are the headlines and broadcasts outlining why none of this came to be? I mean we still have access to their literature and it is a matter of public record. So why won’t anyone from either UK gov or Better Together explain what went wrong, why it went wrong and how they can make it right?

    OK, pretty much rhetorical questions all, but they do serve to underline not only the kind of people you’re dealing with, but the sheer scale of what they have done to the populations on these islands by turn. What’s been done to the populations that make up the UK is nothing short of criminal. What’s been done specifically to the population of Scotland is nothing short of a biblical smash n’ grab robbery. Your front door has been kicked in. Your rights and powers have been grabbed. The thieves have shat in your livingroom, trashed the place and exited the building laughing that you didn’t see it coming.

    Except we did. We did see these actions before they occurred. We did predict UK gov’s nature and its response to Scotland’s representation at Westminster. The nature of devolution and its future. We did predict the worth of those pledges and assurances. We just weren’t believed by enough folk at the time.

    I’m sure more than one soul out there who gave UK gov and their ‘union’ one last chance, is looking to let them know how they feel about the record to date on that ‘partnership of equals’ vision. I’m pretty sure they’re deeply unhappy at the appalling actions of UK gov and the nature of the UK politics, our economy and society we see before us today. I’m sure they’re angry.


    You have a right to be.

    I’m also sure that at the very next ballot opportunity, you’ll show your appreciation for how your previous vote and support has been treated. You won’t be alone. 🙂

  485. defo says:

    Awa an bile yer heid RP.
    Start yer ain effing blog. You can abuse whomever you like there.

  486. Shinty says:

    Dorothy Devine says @7.12am
    “I watched the programme on Ballymurphy and was horrified by my lack of awareness at the time . My only excuse being that I believed the news of the time and everything done in the name of Queen and country was true. Changed days”

    I haven’t yet watched Ballymurphy (on my to do list).
    Growing up it was nothing but IRA very bad, Brits Good and, like you say believed the news of the time.

    I despise the British State an all who sail in her.

  487. Iain mhor says:

    Up in the mornin’s the gemme.
    Just thought I’d put my tuppenceworth in on the side issue of flags and bans and stuff.
    No-one should get twisted about this. It’s an increasingly common policy at events and quite rightly so. If anyone saw a flag at their event, then it was taken in contravention of event regulations and should have been pulled down. It’s not too difficult to smuggle a flag or other contraband like your own food into an event.
    The flag policy has heehaw to do with politics, it’s to do with paying hundreds of pounds to see a show and seeing bugger all because you’re behind an arsehole with a huge flag. The policy is rolling out to most events, including free ones and the sooner it encompasses arseholes with golf umbrellas as well the better.

    Runrig’s last gig at Stirling, where you would expect a sea of Saltires and flags, was bereft because of exactly this policy. The proscription was helpfully projected on big screens as a reminder as well. It is not bureaucracy driven, it’s fan driven. A few people who had smuggled flags in to that event were hunted by the crowd (small flags on sticks were acceptable) .
    If I’ve spent over a ton to get to a gig and you’re standing in front of me with a huge flag, you’re going to lose it – Saltire, Union or Hello Maw. Different in the old days, but it’s serious money nowadays to attend anything, hence the aggresive shift in attitude by fans.

    So there you go. Events = no flags.

  488. Petra says:

    Thanks for the links Nana.

    I’ve just started working my way through the links and find that my blood pressure is rising already (don’t worry Nana, only kidding, lol).

    The Pete Wishart link is just another reminder that we’re living in a one party state: dictatorship. The Scottish Tory lackeys, in cahoots with Westminster Tory Ministers, seem to be blind to the fact that they’re now contributing greatly to the break up of the UK. Another nail in the coffin.

    Theresa May has been / is in Scotland visiting the Queen at Balmoral. What’s Queenie saying to her? “Start treating the Scots with some respect?” If not, its high time that the Queen of the Scots started supporting us. Isn’t that what’s she’s supposed to do? Scotland shouldn’t just be “used” as her, her family members and friends as a holiday and hunting location. We’ve just about had enough of this carry on and it’ll have to come to an end, very soon, one way or another.

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