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Data in depth

Posted on September 07, 2018 by

Last night we stumbled across an interesting little statistical wrinkle to our story from Wednesday about voters’ satisfaction with Scottish public services.

The middle set of figures there is especially revealing.

Because what those stats say in every case is that people who actually use services have a higher opinion of them them those who don’t, and whose impressions are therefore largely formed by what they read in Scotland’s stupendously negative media.

Almost everyone has some kind of contact with the health service and public transport on a fairly regular basis, so the gaps there are relatively small. But not everyone has children in education, so the striking 17-point gap in perception of the standard of schooling sticks out a mile.

Among voters who actually interact with the education system, a whopping 87% were satisfied with it – actually the highest figure in the entire survey. But among the general public who DON’T have any first-hand experience of them, schools were thought of much more poorly.

There are currently around 680,000 children in state schools in Scotland, from around 600,000 households with at least one child in them. (There are no figures we can find that are more specific in terms of the number of children per household.)

What we CAN say from the numbers in the table above is that most of Scotland’s 2.4m households – over 1.6 million – have no children in them (and some of those who do will have children either too young for school or who’ve already left).

So of Scotland’s population of around 4.3m adults, at least 2.4m (56%), and possibly as many as 3 million (70%) live in schoolchild-free homes.

(It seems fair to assume that most people living in households of more than three adults are either student flatmates or families living with elderly relatives, so the real figure is probably nearer the high end of the range.)

Those people with no direct current experience of schools, then, are dragging the ratings down a long way based purely on what they’ve seen and heard in the press.

(We have no way of knowing what the actual numbers are, but purely for illustration: IF the same number of people without any kids in school answered as the number of parents WITH kids in school, that would mean that the people who didn’t know what they were talking about had given education a satisfaction rating of just 53%, while the people actually using the system rated it 87%.)

That’s the sort of detail that you’ll almost never hear in media reports, which prefer to blare a simplistic headline figure and then invite politicians from all sides to spin it, rather than investigating it properly. But that doesn’t produce much in the way of useful information, just clicks and polarised comments.

It’s why we always advise readers to look carefully at any stat-based story, and work out what you’re NOT being told.

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    1. 07 09 18 14:56

      Data in depth | speymouth

    109 to “Data in depth”

    1. yesindyref2 says:

      “Almost everyone has some kind of contact with the health service and public transport”

      I’d take you up on that one, for some people public transport use is rare and occasional – particularly more rural areas or small towns perhaps. People use cars. Hence the bigger gap for that than for health.

    2. blackhack says:

      Statistics can be manipulated to say anything the poster wants you to see…….This is why I never take statistics at face value

    3. Merkin Scot says:

      One of the most important articles written here.

    4. Dek says:

      Superb analysis. Puts our mendacious MSM fuelled by freedom of information requests and political party handout cut and paste to shame .

    5. John Lowe says:

      How true. Superb dissection again WoS

    6. Donald McGregor says:

      Very good point well made.
      In the murky world of education, where all parents hold a little reservoir of fear that the system may fail their child, whispers and complaints easily multiply out of all proportion (imho), and that’s when we parents have the actual children and their experiences directly to hand. For anyone reading the media garbage alone, there is no real hope of being comforted or reliably informed.

    7. Dan Huil says:

      Important analysis by the Rev.

    8. Robert J. Sutherland says:

      What possible use is a survey that asks people for their response to a situation of which they have no personal knowledge?

      So it’s fascinating to observe what Stu has revealed, just how much the ignorant are being misled by third parties, not least the (de)press and (above all) the British Belittling Corp?

    9. Muscleguy says:

      We do not any longer have school aged children in the house, they have both grown and flown (and both over 30 now, where did the time go?). But we know a friend’s 6yo child and in School in Edinburgh. Nearly 4 weeks into the new terms and they have not had a reading book assigned, no spelling lists, nothing.

      In his first year I think he had 7 teachers, the class teacher was a jobshare so two basic but lots of changes of one of them.

      My perception therefore is from that experience not from the unionist media. I’m prepared to accept that public schooling in the capital is skewed massively by the ridiculous degree of paid private schooling in the capital and ECC has just reduced education spending presumably gambling that the poor don’t vote in council elections so no blowback.

      No idea about primary schooling elsewhere, must ask the back fence neighbours. She’s a teacher, he’s a classroom assistant. But I’ve heard no complaints from them.

      And in addition kids have to be prepared for a VERY different world from one I was, I was born, in Kilmarnock, in 1965. When there were three computers in the world and they were room sized. So much has changed. Parents, grandparents etc have to bear that in mind.

    10. bobajock says:

      Thats the name of the game though. Distorted messaging to convince the morons that poverty and austerity the UK way is … the only way.

      And they are morons.

    11. Effijy says:

      Congratulations to the UK Media’s Germalists who have successfully
      spread their Westminster diseases over to the masses.

      What a horrible way to earn a living!
      Lying, distorting and manipulating the public to accept abuse by a neighbouring nation.

      Hope there are enough jobs in England for this scum when Scotland regains its independence.

    12. Effijy says:

      Congratulations to the UK Media’s Germalists who have successfully
      spread their Westminster diseases over to the masses.

      What a horrible way to earn a living!
      Lying, distorting and manipulating the public to accept abuse by a neighbouring nation.

      Hope there are enough jobs in England for this scum when Scotland regains its independence. .

    13. Derek Rogers says:

      How can you be either “satisfied” or “dissatisfied” with something you’ve never used? The question makes no sense, so how did it get in the survey?

      The only honest answer if you haven’t used the service is “Don’t know”, and the 76percent who said they were dissatisfied without having used the service are just gaming the survey to produce an SNP Bad effect. The survey tells us about the state of public opinion, but it doesn’t tell us anything about the quality of the service.

    14. Clootie says:

      The propaganda works! It worked at the high level of the 2014 Referendum. It works on almost every social issue surrounding us (as your graph shows).

      The question is how do we combat the unionist media?

    15. Fred says:

      More to the point, what percentage of the Scottish people are satisfied/dis-satisfied with the so-called Scottish media?

    16. galamcennalath says:

      Meaningful graphs would be satisfaction of users versus non users.

      Also, don’t knows/no opinions should account for a high percentage of the non users. If it doesn’t, then dissatisfied non users must have their opinions formed by the media and peer group. It has to be said, opinions held without factual basis are distinctly dubious. Also, anyone making decisions based on such low fact opinions is a fool!

      It’s over a decade since we had dealings with local education. I am therefore a non user and have heard neither good or bad comments from users I know. I therefore have no opinion.

      I rarely use public transport. I have a bus pass which is great for free travel around cities. Edinburgh has an excellent phone app. So here I would say user and satisfied.

      ‘All adults’ hides far more than it reveals.

    17. Robert J. Sutherland says:

      Muscleguy @ 13:31,

      That’s another thing, education is still primarily in the hands of local authorities, so you could have a situation where NorthBritLab are in charge (maybe even, as in Aberdeen, with the connivance of the Tories), yet it’s the SG who gets the blame. By those self-same BritNat parties!

      You don’t always have to look as far as Wales to see the rank hypocrisy.

      They’ve almost got a perverse incentive to do it, if all they are thinking about is blindly attacking the SNP instead of properly managing their services.

      NorthBritLab always blame the SNP, not the Tory Government, for austerity. Even though they even connived at it in WM votes and abstentions.

      The mitigation trap. The SNP are on a hiding to nothing if they keep on appealing to people simply as “better mitigators” (post-Brexit better mitigators, even now sometimes!), since they can never do well enough for the ever-eager detractors.

    18. Dr Jim says:

      *100% of people don’t know everything*

      That’s why propaganda was invented

    19. Capella says:

      Obviously, only service users can say validly whether they are satisfied with a service or not. At least, that would be obvious to anyone with any sense. Sadly, we have to conclude that our media talk nonsense. Shock.

    20. Derek Hall says:

      It’s all lies, dammed lies and statistics!

    21. galamcennalath says:

      Satisfaction / dissatisfaction / DK among non users by age group would be interesting.

      My guess is many older non users of education are so far removed from it now, their opinions will be formed by the media.

      Is more detail available anywhere?

    22. Alan Findlay says:

      Most impressive data analysis as usual Stuart. I find the data relating to the Ulster data even more intriguing. Would be much obliged if you would analyse recent Ulster data when you have got a minute or two to spare – ‘Ulster will vote for Irish Unification if forced out of EU’ – a movement began with the Friday Agreement, then by Ian Paisley becoming best pals with a leading ‘Fenian’, then Ireland free bus travel for pensioners financed by Eire government, then Abortion Bill success, then The Irish PM? telling the Pope that his church was at fault for the Irish people’s problems along with past Eire government’s subservience eg education. Seems to me all that is needed now is for Irish PM to announce the end of Catholic Church special political status, so cutting LOL off at the knees, when a Irish Unification vote is called

    23. HandandShrimp says:

      One cannot but help think that the negative views from those who do not use the service come from torn faced curmudgeons that believe everything was better in 1953 and the world went to the dogs sometime in 1962.

      However, these are straightforward nuances to pick up on and what is remarkable is how inummerate most journalists are that they cannot do such analysis. The media is crap because it is incompentent, shallow, low brow, reactionary drivel. Other than that it is OK.

    24. galamcennalath says:

      To answer my own question above. A little more detail

      Local Schools
      Very or fairly satisfied 70%
      Neither satisfied nor dissatisfied 25%
      Very or fairly dissatisfied 5%

      So, as I guessed, overall many have no opinion, while only 5% are dissatisfied. That tells a different story too.

      https://www.gov.scot/Resource/0053/00539878.pdf
      Table 9.2

    25. Dave M says:

      From having previously worked at one of Scotland’s social research companies, whenever we report satisfaction with services, the views of service users were/are what’s reported for this very reason. Anyone can have an opinion, however uninformed, but if they don’t know what they’re talking about because they don’t use the service, their views are of less use.

    26. ROBBO says:

      On the other hand lets take education satisfaction levels. Most people with kids at school (mine are already grown up and away)would probably rate their schools depending on three factors 1. state of the facilities, 2.class sizes, and 3.performance PTA feedback, and I would hazard a guess that the last is the biggest. From my experience many teachers are nervous about giving negative feedback especially in the early years where there is no reliable academic record to contradict it. In the past teachers assessments are largely subjective and I agree with Scot Gov’s decision to standardise these tests in future.

    27. defo says:

      Sticks out like a sore thumb, if you have a brain to REALLY look.
      Excellent spot Stu.
      The MSM effect. (I bagsy the term btw)

      O/T reply from the railcrash thread

      brewsed says:
      at 7:57 pm
      “Apologies, a bit O.T. but, for those interested, Sheriff McGowan’s full reasoning in the Wings over Scotland defamation case against Kezia Dugdale – allowing a full hearing: http://scotcourts.gov.uk/docs/default-source/cos-general-docs/pdf-docs-for-opinions/2018scedin49.pdf?sfvrsn=0
      Read paragraph 46 and ponder upon Ms Dugdale’s legal team.”

      I wonder if that’s the same ‘lock ’em up’ Mad McGowan from my old trainspotting days?
      Total old-school Tory, hates Labour with a passion, apparently.
      Just saying

    28. call me dave says:

      Your forensic on data Stu just brilliant, in fact. TA..DA! 🙂

    29. galamcennalath says:

      Another way to present the findings on local schools might be to remove ‘no opinion’.

      (75 satisfied, 25 no opinion, 5 satisfied)

      93.8% satisfied, versus 6.2% dissatisfied

      Which, strikes me as excellent, considering many/most are non users.

      On that basis, the loyal BritNat msm would appear to be failing in their efforts!

    30. Thepnr says:

      Rev from the table that galamcennalath posted at 2:42 you can make an estimate of the total number of households with children at school as against those with none.

      For example in 2017 the number the poll is based on for All Adults was 6260 and for service users only it was 1660, so clearly 27% of those polled had children at school.

      In 2016 28%, 2015 29%, 2014 31% ect ect.

      Looks like school roles are falling which seems correct although I didn’t think it would be at a rate of around 1% a year, the last year available was 2007 and that was 33% of households had a child at school.

      Looks like your estimate of 30% was just about spot on.

      “So of Scotland’s population of around 4.3m adults, at least 2.4m (56%), and possibly as many as 3 million (70%) live in schoolchild-free homes.”

      What we know for certain now is that in 2017 out of 1660 asked about their satisfaction of Local schools 87% were fairly or very satisfied and 13% were not.

      That’s a total of 216 households.

      When all adults are included 30% of 6260 people were not satisfied which is a total of 1878 households of which 216 do have kids at school.

      The total then of those not satisfied with local schools that DO NOT have children at schools is 1662 and the total number polled with kids not at school is 4600 out of the 6260 polled since 1660 do have kids at school.

      The overall % then of the dissatisfied with children NOT at school is 1662/4600 or 36% compared with just 13% of those that use schools.

      You are almost 3 times more likely to be dissatisfied with the local schools if you don’t actually use them, these are the people affected by the constant gloom.

      Apologies for being a boring pedant, just waiting on my errors being pointed out now 🙂

    31. ClanDonald says:

      Is there any data of views from just service users from previous years in order to make a comparison with this year?

    32. galamcennalath says:

      Thepnr says:

      The overall % then of the dissatisfied with children NOT at school is 1662/4600 or 36% compared with just 13% of those that use schools.

      Unfortunately, the data only says the percentage of neither satisfied or unsatisfied for the whole group, not users. As is my comment above that was 25% with only 5% actually dissatisfied.

      When you say “dissatisfied” you actually mean “other than satisfied”, they might be neutral.

      Your extrapolation makes sense. However the 36 & 13 contain both neutral and actual dissatisfied.

      If the whole sample split of 70:25:5 was applied to your two figures, then …

      36% perhaps splits to 30% neutral, 6% dissatisfied

      13% perhaps splits to 10.8% neutral and 1.2% dissatisfied

      Maybe that’s an extrapolation too far because more users will rightly hold firm opinions, reducing neutrals within their sub group.

      Either way, it all looks not bad at all!

    33. Nation Libre says:

      Why even include the opinion in the results of someone who doesn’t use a service. Your opinion can only have been formed by other people’s and/or the media’s opinion

      Again, why isn’t this being trumpeted by the ScotGov at every opportunity. You have to hope that very soon, we’re going to really get tough in rebuking all this misinformation

    34. Thepnr says:

      @ClanDonald

      That’s a very good point because if you went back to 2011 when satisfaction was at it’s peak you would see the effect that negative reporting appears to have had on the levels of satisfaction which have been falling every year since.

      It would be very interesting to compare the change in satisfaction levels from then between the two different groups, those with kids at school and those without.

      I’ll have a look for the info just for the hell of it.

    35. Cairnallochy says:

      My wife is certain that most of my leisure, off peak, railway journeys are affected by delays, problems and cancellations. My estimate is around 5% but have never been able to override her recollections of what are probably annual incidents as typical of my experience week by week. She seldom if ever travels by train although when she does her annual trip on the Inverness line in summer, she sometimes – but not always – sees some of the worst tourist experiences.

      I admit that I do not experience the hassle of peak time commuting but I am also aware that such problems also affect most of the (more highly subsidised) peak time services elsewhere in Europe despite what Labour “researchers” keep telling us. And many home counties commuters might laugh at what we think of as major problems. Certainly, from my position, the most negative views I hear about public transport are from people who seldom use it.

    36. Ken500 says:

      In 2009 the Westminster Labour Gov was raising £600Billion and borrowing £120Billion. £720Billion. More money was spent on public services.

      The Tories raise less and borrow less. Cut NHS/Education and welfare spending. The Scottish Gov has to mitigate the cuts. Scotland raises £60Billion, more pro rata. Scotland exports more pro rata. Scotland can borrow very little but has to make repayments on money borrowed and spent in the rest of the UK.

      Scotland pays it’s own (UK) Gov pensions and benefits. It was £16Billion. It comes from general taxation raised in Scotland. Scotland has to pay more for Defence etc, etc.

    37. Ken500 says:

      The only bad train journey was during summer festivals in the Glasgow Parks. The train gets busier and busier. Drinking, shouting etc. Really traumatic, Drink should be banned on the railways. The noise, language gets louder and louder. It can be annoying. It’s ok if there are seats available to move.

      Historical under investment has meant train journeys in Scotland take longer than in the south.

    38. Charlie says:

      Excellent analysis, but I have given up hope that the Scottish media will ever accurately report on anything related to the SNP.

      On a personal note regarding the schools:

      For the last 16 years I have had kids at school, and will do for another seven.

      We’ve had one challenging school from 2002 until 2006 but it was neither the school, nor the teachers nor the education system failing – the school had an extremely high number of children from not only disadvantaged backgrounds but broken families.

      When you’re having to spend all of your time convincing those children and their parents that violence is not an answer to their problems – not the tiny ones nor the big ones – there is not much time for teaching left. And yet, my son’s teachers worked their arses off trying to do right by all the kids.

      Since then we have had far more positive experiences. I won’t lie, I do have issues. I come from a completely different education system and to my eye, the British one has very obvious shortcomings (usually acknowledged by the teachers themselves when we discuss this, but expecting them to rectify those would be like expecting a rainbow fish to not only grow wings and lungs and learn to fly but also to become an aerial predator).

      Working within the existing system then, half the problems that have arisen could be solved by more funding – Westminster cuts, not SNP.

      About a quarter is to do with personality issues – nothing whatsoever to do with the SNP.

      The last quarter relates to the Curriculum for Excellence. I would posit that the SNP was locked into the LAB/LD proposal. They didn’t have to but have embraced completely woolly-headed notions of education BUT and this is important BUT every other party has embraced the very same notions.

      So it’s not a political issue, it’s a social/cultural phenomenon and I would still have these ideological disagreements with the Scottish school system even if the SNP wasn’t in power.

      Having said all of the above however, as Robbo asks above, let’s judge the SNP on

      1)class sizes
      2)facilities
      3)performance PTA feedback

      1)Our schools are oversubscribed, but class size is acceptable.

      As the primary school has enough classroom assistants, all classes with special needs kids have at least two adults working in them.

      The high school has diverse class sizes due to the kids being distributed across the many subject choices they have.

      2)Primary: Very good, could be better.

      High school: building needs improvement but we’re probably a long way down in terms of getting a new one, other schools have far worse problems.

      I’ve been to two newly built ones recently and they are an absolute dream for the kids and the community.

      Anyway, nothing is missing that would have an impact on the kids’s education.

      3)We have the most wonderful headteacher ever who made a massive difference to the primary school, so the evals are just glowing.

      High school had a guy who was a good teacher but an ineffective headteacher. The new one is putting the fear of god into the pupils and they needed it. The evals are quite good, Parent Forum & school working well together

      And I’ll add another factor:

      4)exam performance

      Above average compared to the rest of Scotland, improving incrementally.

      I know parents with kids at about a dozen primary and secondary schools personally and we talk about this a lot, and complaints in particular are always being discussed.

      So from that viewpoint, I’m happy to say that no, the SNP is not failing my kids or my friends’ kids or my family’s kids either.

    39. Thepnr says:

      @galamcennalath

      “When you say “dissatisfied” you actually mean “other than satisfied”, they might be neutral.”

      My use of dissatisfied was wrong and of of course it includes those that did not express an opinion either way.

      I agree too that 30% are neutral and just 6% dissatisfied out of the 36% that are not fairly or very satisfied is a very reasonable way to estimate that split.

      Similar to what you would get if you counted the 25% as don’t knows i.e 93.3% at least fairly satisfied and just 6.7% dissatisfied.

    40. Ken500 says:

      UK Gov accounts. Total tax revenues raised in the UK £628Billion. Seems to be addition raised £92Billion. Is that included? Scotland raises £60Billion. Take £60Billion from £628Billion = 568 divided by 11 (11/12 pop) = £51.5Billion. More pro rata is borrowed and spent in the rest of the UK. Now Chinese borrowing on Hinkley Point and HS2 is not classed as borrowing but ‘public investment’. Left off the balance sheet but increases overall spending. In higher costs. Scotland has to pay off debt on loans not borrowed or spent in Scotland. The rest of the UK has privatised more services. Left off the balance sheet as public spending?

    41. Thepnr says:

      In 2011 5510 households took part and 1800 had kids at school, the figures for fairly or very satisfied were 85% of all households and 90% of service users.

      That works out at 17.5% of those without kids that were either neutral or dissatisfied in 2011 and has now more than doubled to 36% in 2017.

      While for those with kids at school it has grown from 10% that were either neutral or dissatisfied to 13% over the same period, a 30% increase.

      I think negativity in the press and on TV about schooling has had a role in this increase on both sides, but again the increase is more than 3 times greater if you don’t have kids.

      It really does just go to show that perceptions can be manipulated and often are. Put it this way, just why would those without kids at school believe things to be so much worse now than they did in 2011?

      I guess that can only be because someone keeps telling them that it is worse even though they have no direct personal experience or at best very little. There are a good number too who really want it to be fact that things are worse because they can blame the government so no doubt there’s a bit of that in there too.

    42. Terry says:

      Yesindyref2

      Don’t talk such utter pish.

    43. robertknight says:

      The combined drip…drip…drip effect from the MSM of ‘Too small, too poor, too stupid’ and ‘SNPBad’.

    44. Legerwood says:

      On the subject of Education, in this case P1 assessments, and creating a negative perception.

      P1 testing has been a ‘live’ issue particularly over the last week or so. One of the things that has fed its continued prominence was a survey carried out by a parent’s group. The results of the survey, at least the results that fitted the narrative of press and politicians of SNP bad, were given great prominence on the front page of the Herald last week, if I remember correctly.

      Majority of parents against P1 assessments it screamed. Children in tears it shouted. Read further into the article and you find that 364 parents responded to a Snap Survey using the group’s Social Media Channels. Hmm. Cue alarm bells. Maybe not conducted in a recognised standard manner.

      Look at the group’s website and you find this bit of info the MMS forgot to report:
      “”96% of children did not talk to their parents about the SNSA in advance
      75% of children did not talk about the SNSA after they took it””

      In other words the majority of children were not too bothered and, like children the world over, when asked ‘how was school today?’ said ‘Fine’

      But anyone reading the headline and the first few paras of a lengthy article would have gone away thinking P1 was he’ll and children subjected to awful stress because of these assessments.

      There are some issues with the administration of the tests by some local authorities, and teachers, but not anything like as bad as the publicity makes out.

      Full survey results here.
      https://connect.scot/news/connects-parent-survey-findings-national-testing-primary-1-children

    45. Effijy says:

      If the Tory Fascist media want stats, how about the one where a country, Scotalnd, has never given the Tories a majority in my entire lifetime and yet here I am in my 60’s having lived and suffered under English Tory Governments through most of my life.

      They have been so powerful with the money behind them that their 2 English opposition parties are also Tories in other colours.

    46. Bruce says:

      As a rural user of the health services I can only say that anything NHS Highland has to do with is rubbish. They tell lies without even thinking . I have not seen the same GP for several years now. There have been several who were keen to stay but after a short while they decided otherwise. The common factor is NHS Highland. I cannot find out what they do because staff are understandably tight lipped but there is no doubt that they impose conditions which are not acceptable to anybody. They have certainly told me direct lies regarding services which did not exist.

    47. Robert Peffers says:

      O/T: But related.

      Gordon Ross today:-

      http://www.youtube.com/embed/0eJZMjRSh4M?autoplay=1&start=839

      Also touches upon how claimed statistic are manipulated by both the Westminster Establishment and the media they control and fund.

      Well worth a view.

    48. gus1940 says:

      Apparently Boris’s wife kicked him out several months ago.

      Does anybody believe that the vermin of the media have not been aware of this for ages?

      So why have they kept mum until today?

    49. Robert Peffers says:

      @galamcennalath says: 7 September, 2018 at 2:34 pm:

      ” … My guess is many older non users of education are so far removed from it now, their opinions will be formed by the media.
      Is more detail available anywhere?

      Bloody hilarious, now I’ve really heard it all. Now it isn’t the SNP’s fault – it’s those old folks to blame — AGAIN.

      Let’s bang that bloody idiocy on the head right away. In a great many families with children the parents are normally never anywhere near their children’s schools – because they ate out working roughly the same hours as the school teachers teaching their children.

      It most often falls to one or more of the four grandparents to taxi or walk the grandchildren to school.

      Walk past any local primary school at start or finishing times and you will observe there are two main distinct factions. Older Grandparents and younger parents with one or more pre-school children in tow standing at the gates.

      Not only that but it is often the Grandparents who provide the collected children with their evening meal. It is well past the time for certain Wingers to stop demonising the older generation as the enemy of independence. You do not suddenly wake up one morning after a lifetime of supporting independence and find to your amazement you have suddenly become a unionist overnight against your will.

      Simply, the demographic is that Scotland’s political population is changing from a unionist voting kingdom to an independence voting kingdom so the obvious result is that as the OLD order changed to the new the older order is becoming progressively more elderly and the new order progressively more youthful, or looked at from a different viewpoint, where else would the SNP gain converts from than from the older voting public?

      The obvious result being that independence is inevitable even if no further converts could be gained from what is essentially the actual unionist party members where the new young voters are predominately indy minded.

    50. yesindyref2 says:

      @AuldBob
      I probably dipped into soc.culture.scottish years ago, and remember something about gorse and whins – was that you?

    51. Robert Peffers says:

      @Nation Libre says: 7 September, 2018 at 4:02 pm:

      ” … Again, why isn’t this being trumpeted by the ScotGov at every opportunity.”

      Talking about forming opinions when you have no direct knowledge of the subject – can you inform us what is your knowledge that the ScotGov isn’t, or hasn’t, been trumpeting it, Nation Libre?

      What I know for certain is that I haven’t seen, heard or viewed the SNP trumpeting anything very much on the Westminster funded and owned National Broadcaster or in the dead tree MSM that the National Broadcaster is now subsidising.

      That may, of course, be because the corrupt media is almost 100% anti-Scottish and the worst corrupted are the Scottish branches of the United Kingdom/British/English controlled media.

      Are you, perhaps pittin the cuddy afore the cairt?

      Siccna paircel o rogues in ae nation.

    52. Ian Brotherhood says:

      Much twitteration today about whether or not Richard Leonard is *deliberately* raising reserved matters at FMQs knowing that the MSM will cover his question but omit the answer.

      Is he targetting the same people who affect polls on matters in which they have no direct involvement?

      I’ve asked if anyone (specifically Tricia Marwick) can shed any light on whether or not what Leonard is doing constitutes contempt.

      Does anyone here know?

    53. Dan Huil says:

      @Robert Peffers 5:35pm

      Very interesting link, Robert. Gordon Ross insightful once again. As you say, well worth a view.

    54. galamcennalath says:

      Ian Brotherhood says:

      whether or not Richard Leonard is *deliberately* raising reserved matters at FMQs

      I think the Scottish Parliament should discuss and debate anything, reserved or devolved. Obviously it can only legislate in devolved area.

      HOWEVER, FMQ is not the time for such discussion. The Presiding Officer should intervene and stop anyone bringing up topics which the FM cannot answer because she is not responsible.

      This is a well established BritNat tactic – fudging what is devolved and reserved. It serves three purposes …

      – blames the SG for WM failings
      – takes the heat off WM and the Union
      – confuses voters which is always a good way to undermine democracy

      Is it always malicious on the part of BritNat politicians? Hard to tell! Some of them are so thick they probably fail to understand the demarcation. I used to swear Margaret Curran never ever knew which parliament did what. Leonard? I think it’s malicious.

    55. brewsed says:

      Again apologies for being a bit O/T but if you are interested in supporting a second series of Dateline 2018 then there is a fundraiser at https://www.indiegogo.com/projects/dateline-2018-second-season#/

    56. Tinto Chiel says:

      @galamcennalath, Ian B:

      The Presiding Officer could easily stop MSPs asking questions/grandstanding on matters which are reserved but he chooses not to. Just as bad, in my opinion, is his refusal to slap down poor standards of behaviour: desk-banging, shouting, Ruth The Mooth-style bare-faced cheek (“Sit down! Sit Down!”) etc.

      Our parliament used to have standards of behaviour which were better than the WM snake-pit but the ex-BBC, SiU member has allowed matters to slide and really needs to get a grip.

      Hey, I think I’m on to something…

    57. Ghillie says:

      Good analysis Rev Stu =)

      Do our children go into school happily and do they come out of school happy?

      That was the barometer for me.

    58. Roughian says:

      Re reserved matters.
      Can’t MSPs raise “points of order” to interrupt the questions. If the Presiding Officer won’t state what and is not reserved then surely the MSPs can. This would soon put the likes of Tricky Licky Dicky’s gas on a peep.

    59. Ghillie says:

      Ian Brotherhood, Galamcennalath and Tinto Chiel,

      (whispers) I think Rev Stu is going to make a list of Reserved Matters for Mr Leonard to study =)

      The Presiding Officer needs a spell on the naughty step.

    60. Liz g says:

      Ian Brotherhood @ 7.21
      I reckon it is malicious, I mean it’s all the bloody time..
      Mibbi we could use this, bounce a bit of information around.
      I’ve thought for sometime that we mibbi need some sort of drive to highlight the Devolved/ Reserved thing.
      If nothing else…. it’s a useful use of our time till we get a date??

      ………………………..
      Just home and playing catch up… but I see Terrys at it again… a wee bit more cautious this time.
      Still anaw I’m a woman who keeps her word, I’m away tae contact the Rev…

    61. Macart says:

      @Ian B

      Yes, there has been much twitteration on the subject.

      You have to hand it to the current Conservative government though. (Well, actually all of them) They are what they are and don’t even attempt to hide it. They break agreement after agreement are embroiled in scandal after scandal. I don’t think there is a venal act they haven’t committed in government when you look back over the years of headlines. Yet here they still are… entrusted with your lives, your welfare, your future. Voted into power by someone else right enough and constitutionally kept there by their wee helpers in the shape of Labour and Liberal (sighs) democrat parties. But still. THERE. Oh, and basically a more disreputable and downright evil crew you’d be hard pushed to find. On top of all that, the current incarnation of Conservatism is the most inept, arrogant and ignorant group ever to inhabit the post of government.

      Then we come to Labour in Scotland (and it is Labour IN Scotland). They have a choice as I see it.

      They’re either criminally stupid and unfit for representation or government.

      OR

      They’re criminally dishonest and unfit for representation or government.

      No, I don’t believe they’re entirely ignorant of reserved and devolved matters either and that leaves only one logical conclusion to reach really. Now doesn’t it?

      The entire UK is facing its greatest economic, political and societal crisis of the post war period. Successive Conservative and Labour governments have brought the populations of the UK to this pass. Their dishonesty. Their practice of politics. Their willingness to compromise our democracy with the influence of corporate patronage (which includes the media world). The buck stops with the government of the UK. Unless of course they’re going to go with the ‘big boy did it an ran away’ defence? You are either in charge or you’re not. You are either responsible or you’re not. You are either the government charged with care of ALL the population or you’re not.

      Well? They took the money (pretty much all the money). They take the responsibility.

      Oh and the Libdems don’t get off the hook either. Santa’s little helpers played their part in the coming catastrophe too, don’t forget. Don’t EVER forget.

      You know how to thank them all appropriately at the very next opportunity.

    62. Ian Brotherhood says:

      @Macart –

      Well said there.

      I had cause to look up the word ‘democracy’ earlier today and it’s supposed to mean government by the people via elected representatives.

      These Tory bastards are systematically exterminating our sick, elderly and most vulnerable at the rate of at least 100 *a day*.

      Did you vote for them? Did I? Did anyone who reads Wings?

      ‘Democracy’ my arse.

      If Labour’s Scottish branch is being prevented from helping us to get shot of the Tories then they’re part of the problem and no amount of ideological hair-splitting or media-aided deception is going to help them avoid going even further down the lavvy than they already are.

      Fuck the ‘Tories’, whatever colour of rosette they happen to be wearing.

    63. Liz g says:

      Macart @ 9.02
      Aye,and the’ve the cheek tae tell us that ” Democracy means sometimes you don’t get the government ye vote for”
      But EVERY Fucking time???
      2014 and it’s aftermath shone a light on there being NO difference between the Westminster parties..
      As you said,we shouldn’t ever forget it…

    64. Macart says:

      @Ian B

      Couldn’t agree more. If they’re not part of the solution? They’re part of the problem. They put people in harms way. Deliberately put people’s livelihoods and lives in harms way for the sake of their politics. For the sake of the win and my tribe right or wrong. It’s an act of epic idiocy.

      Politics. Government isn’t a difficult concept. We pay them money. They put bread on the table and keep us safe. THAT’S IT! THAT’S THE JOB!

      If you can’t do that job? Then you let someone else, who can, do it until you come up with some better ideas. What you don’t do is run your country, your population, your institutions and your democracy down and bitch from the sidelines whilst you’re waiting for a flash of inspiration. What you don’t do is sell your people out to the highest bidder. What you don’t do is preach hatred and division for the sake of the cheapest vote and the demographic du jour.

      THAT is UK politics today. THAT is Labour, the Conservatives and the Libdems all over. I’m ashamed I ever gave Labour my vote upon a time.

    65. Astonished says:

      O/T If McLeish had any integrity he would resign. I believe he is a huge British Nationalist, therefore I suspect he will try to cling on and blame someone else.

      I don’t just want McLeish gone, immediately. I want rid of the SFA guys who appointed him.

      Rev or anyone else : How can I do that ?

    66. galamcennalath says:

      Ian Brotherhood says:

      word ‘democracy’ …. supposed to mean government by the people via elected representatives.

      Democracy simply can’t be applied to WM, though that hasn’t stopped them perpetuating a myth!

      The last time (I believe) a party actually won more than half the votes at WM was Stanley Balwin’s Conservatives in 1931 – not within most folks’ living memories. Every government since then was rejected by a majority of voters. eg 54.1% of voters rejected Thatcher in 1979 yet she took the reins of government and havoc ensued, thanks to the WM archaic system.

      In 2005 Tony Blair took power with a miserable 35.2% of votes cast. As did Cameron with 36.9% in 2005. In each case almost two thirds of voters didn’t want them as PM / government.

      By no modern measure can WM be considered a democratic system.

      If we then consider the nation and country of Scotland within this UK Union, getting a government we didn’t chose is more likely than not!

      I want Scottish independence because I want to live in a democracy and to hand that on to future generations. The chances of the UK converting to democracy are zilch.

    67. Terry says:

      I see BritNat MacLeish has suffered his fourth defeat in five games when Scotland got humped 4-0 by Belgium.

    68. Ian Brotherhood says:

      @galamcennalath –

      Aye, the greatest myth they’ve ever sold was this pish about WM being ‘The Mother of Parliaments’, as if nowhere had functioning systems of government prior to the mid-19th century (when that expression was coined).

      One only has to talk to the cleaners who work in the Palace of Westminster – it’s a cesspool, and always has been.

    69. A2 says:

      “(It seems fair to assume that most people living in households of more than three adults are either student flatmates or families living with elderly relatives,”

      there’s also a fair proportion of those over 18 still living with their parents or indeed registered as living with their parents so it’s not that fair really.

      I’d also say that those satisfied with schools will include parents of those pupils who recently left school (perhaps in the last decade) there will also of course be those who have had a bad experience.

    70. Cubby says:

      Message to yesindyref2

      Cubby = Cubby.

    71. Tinto Chiel says:

      @Astonished 10.15: sadly, no surprise, really, is it?

      The organisation which has presided over a disastrous 20-odd year decline in the Scottish game appoints a man for a second term (after previous failure) who publicly joined a political campaign to fight against the independence of his country.

      The mastermind who thought Scotland playing the third-best team in the world before an important qualifying tournament game should be quietly removed.

      And before the match, our wonderful BBC Shortbread pundits were salivating about our excitingly midfield selections.

    72. A2 says:

      “1. state of the facilities, 2.class sizes, and 3.performance PTA feedback, and I would hazard a guess that the last is the biggest. ”

      I’ve based mine mostly on talking to my daughter, she is after all the actual service user.

    73. Old Pete says:

      Low morale in the Scottish football team, not surprising when Britnat McLeish tries to boost players morale to play for a country he actively refuses it’s existence.
      McLeish a “no surrender” true blue rabid Britnat managing Scotland, in his opinion a region of his beloved Union.
      Scottish people need to rise up a rid themselves of the shackles of the stinking English dominated Union and the sooner the better.

    74. Graf Midgehunter says:

      Indycar Gordon Ross 07 09 18 Dublin, Brussels and Disneyland.

      I’m starting to enjoy listening to the briefings from Gordon Ross on a daily basis. He has a certain way of describing processes which make it easy for “don’t knows”/maybes to follow and understand.

      http://www.youtube.com/embed/0eJZMjRSh4M?autoplay=1&start=839

      Pass it on to friends and family.

    75. Ian Brotherhood says:

      @TC & Old Pete –

      Some will cry ‘Off-Topic!’ but it really isn’t – how the national football team fares is important, but so too is how it’s organised and who benefits from whatever dosh happens to be sloshing around at any given time.

      The shoddy behaviour of the authorities, and the shamelessness with which McLeish touted his bony hairy wares to get the gig *should* be the stuff of national newspaper exposes. But no, it just trundles on, with all the same faces and voices taking turns for the junkets…

      It’s just tragic.

    76. HYUFD says:

      Old Pete England lost 1-0 to Belgium in the World Cup Semi Final, Scotland failed to qualify for the World Cup finals and lost 4-0 to Belgium tonight. Wales beat Belgium 3-1 in the 2016 European Championship semi finals (which again Scotland failed to qualify for) and they did not sit around whinging about being yoked to England either.

    77. HYUFD says:

      Old Pete England lost 1-0 to Belgium in the World Cup Semi Final, Scotland failed to qualify for the World Cup finals and lost 4-0 to Belgium tonight. Wales beat Belgium 3-1 in the 2016 European Championship quarter finals (which again Scotland failed to qualify for) and they did not sit around whinging about being yoked to England either.

    78. HYUFD says:

      Old Pete England lost 1-0 to Belgium in the World Cup 3rd place play off, Scotland failed to qualify for the World Cup finals and lost 4-0 to Belgium tonight. Wales beat Belgium 3-1 in the 2016 European Championship quarter finals (which again Scotland failed to qualify for) and they did not sit around whinging about being yoked to England either.

    79. Famous15 says:

      If you repete (sic) something three times does that make you a kelpie?

    80. Famous15 says:

      Three times a leprechaun?

    81. Thepnr says:

      @Famous15

      It’s here to disrupt as proven on a few threads and is best ignored.

    82. Petra says:

      It’s late and I’ve just jumped in here. I’ve not read most of the latter posts, but I will do tomorrow (today, lol).

      Meanwhile I would like to say FORGET about Brexit, with all that entails, and just tell me, SCOTS, are you really willing to let the Tories (cruel and callous) rule over Scotland for the next few years and the next few years thereafter? Are you prepared for them to strip us of our MANIFOLD resources and human rights? Cut our budget? Cut our financial contribution dramatically and send sweetie money our way in return? Prepared for Holyrood to disappear?

      We can reckon that this will be the outcome as there is no real challenge to them. Not from the SNP at Westminster or the totally divided Labour Party that’s going nowhere. Ready to split up, as per Blair the warmonger. The Tories are calling the shots along with far right wing UKip (members joining the Tories in their thousands seemingly).

      What a worry, eh?, UKip, but not half as much as the DUP ruling the roost. The Orange Order now instructing (before, now and in the future) Arlene Foster. The DUP with their claws embedded in the Tories hair and skull. The DUP having more power over us than Nicola Sturgeon and Holyrood. More power over Scotland than Westminster. Tories, UKip and the DUP united against an Independent Scotland. Or even just a devolved Scotland (whatever that means now?). NOUGHT.

      IMO, Scotland is finished, will be decimated, if we don’t reject the Westminster and NIrish DUP status quo.

      Are you ready for the Orange Order to take over Scotland?

      Time to make a stand folks. Do it. Do it now.

    83. Robert Peffers says:

      @galamcennalath says:7 September, 2018 at 10:21 pm:

      ” … word ‘democracy’ …. supposed to mean government by the people via elected representatives.”

      Technically that is a legally wrong definition of democracy.

      The definitive definition of Democracy is:-

      “Government of the people, by the people, for the people”.

      Democracy is thus impossible under English Law, (but not under Scots law), and English law has jurisdiction in the entire Kingdom of England – that is England, Wales and Northern Ireland.

      Here’s why – under English law the Queen of England is a legally sovereign monarch. Thus the Queen of England owns everything in the Kingdom of England and that includes Her Majesty’s subjects in England, Wales and Northern Ireland. Westminster is legally, “Her Majesty’s Government”. The Treasury is, “Her Majesty’s Treasury”, and the Prime Minister is, “Her Majesty’s Prime Minister”.

      Which exposes the truth that Westminster really has no legal sovereignty over the people of Scotland as the people of Scotland are legally sovereign Unless by the consent of the legally sovereign People of Scotland.

      Which is why we haven’t yet become independent – in any case that consent is only assumed by Westminster for there is absolutely nothing that has ever said Westminster is sovereign over Scotland except Westminster just assumed it was sovereign and not enough people of Scotland objected but it is there, written down, in the Treaty of Union that the United Kingdom is a Union of two equally Sovereign kingdoms.

      The people who have condemned us to subjugation under Westminster and the people of Scotland who still vote for any of the three unionist political parties of Westminster.

      Shame on such people.

      However, during the English, “Glorious Revolution”, of 1688 the Parliament of the Kingdom of England revolted, (rebelled), against their rightful Monarch, King James II of England, who was also King James VII of (a still independent), Scotland.

      The Parliament of the Kingdom of England had no legal right to depose their king because in 1688 the rule of Law in The Kingdom of England, (three countries), was the Divine Right of Kings and King James II of England was thus legally sovereign and his word was law. In Scotland, as James VII of Scots he was not legally sovereign and Scotland was a democracy.

      The English parliament skipped more than 50 in the royal line and chose illegally chose to offer the crowns of England, Wales & Ireland to Mary of Orange. Mary refused the offer as she did not want her Husband Billy to be her consort. The English Kingdom then offered the crown to the couple as equal monarchs on condition that they legally delegated their Devine Right to Rule to the Parliament of England.

      The problem being that if the Monarchy is legally sovereign the monarchy owns everything and the people are the monarch’s legal subjects. Then there is the face that the Monarch of England can never be sovereign under Scots law and in 1688 Scotland was still an independent Kingdom so English parliaments had no legal authority. Hence the Jacobite Rebellions from 1688 until the Battle of Culloden in 1745.

      It is why there was no actual Union of the Crowns in 1603 as it was only a union personal for James VI & I of England not for James I of The United Kingdom. It is why Westminster needed a Treaty of Union in 1706/7 and cheated Scotland by the Darien Expedition and why the Scots would not agree to the Treaty unless Scots law remained forever Independent.

      Now think on this – Westminster has two houses of Parliament and the aristocracy, the hereditary peers, The English Archbishops and the Law lords sit in the House of Lords and the HOL is much larger than the Commons.

      So legally, in England, the Queen is still sovereign and the Parliamentarians must swear allegiance to the Queen of England. There is no written law that says the leader of the largest Party in Parliament is made Prime Minister because the Office of Prime Minister is legally titled, “Her Majesty’s Prime Minister”, and the Queen of England summons her choice of Prime Minister to her presence and commands him/her to form, “Her/His Majesty’s Government”.

      What that means is that the people vote for Members of Parliament to be delegates for the Queen/King of England – i.e. they legally represent the monarch – not the people of the Kingdom of England. So England is not a democracy and it never ever has been. You cannot have a Monarch and a democracy at the same time and you cannot have democracy with a non-elected HOL.

      Scotland became a democracy in 1320 by the Declaration of Arbroath and when we legally elect anyone to office, either Westminster, Holyrood, the local council or the local community council, we elect them to represent the legally sovereign people of Scotland not either the state or the monarchy.

      Which is both Scotland’s greatest strength and Scotland’s greatest weakness for we cannot get out of this dreadful union unless a majority of the people of Scotland vote for Scotland to leave, Sadly until there is a referendum and a vote returns a majority we remain under illegal Westminster rule that has never treated the Union as being what it says it is in the Treaty of Union – a two kingdom partnership of equally sovereign kingdoms.

      Not a union of countries, not a take over by the larger kingdom, but a legally bipartite union of equally sovereign kingdoms. And that being so all that prevents us from being independent is the wishes of the people of Scotland – all of them no matter where they originated from.

      So do not blame Westminster entirely – the real villains are the Unionist peoples of Scotland – may they roast in a hell as dire as the hell they have wished upon so many of their fellow Scots.

      BY the Way – did you know the real reason that the Conservative party are called, “The Tories”?

      The word ‘Tory’ was a slang, derogatory term, used to denote people who were poor, Irish and Catholic in the 17th century.

      I kid you not. The word Tory was coined as a slang term for supporters of James II of England who was the English monarch deposed in the English Glorious Revolution of 1688 because of his adherence to Catholicism. How Ironic is that because he was also King James VII of Scotland which led to the Treaty of Union and the Jacobite uprisings, (not rebellions), between 1688 and the Battle of Culloden in 1745 which was going on 40 years after the Treaty of Union was signed.

      But they don’t want you to know that.

    84. Molly says:

      HYFUD they maybe didn’t sit around whinging about being yoked to merry olde England but there is a real issue (not just with the SFA ) about where Scotlands expectations are and how we fit in?

      The SFA have had a horrendous week ( the women’s team excluded) . In fact the SFA have had a horrendous decade.

      Their lack of foresight is staggering, for example, my Twitter feed was deluged for a while by the ad ‘ This girl can’ ran by sport England,and of course you could watch women’s football on TV ( English games) money no object and yet for the first time when the Scottish women’s team qualified for the Euros did the SFA promote it , get their first game on TV at teatime ?

      Nil , nada , like the week end news or the week end weather if you don’t have internet access , you had to wait until the next day for the result.

      Despite it being a fantastic opportunity to introduce the game to a wider audience.

      They have no clout to get Scotland matches either male or female on the TV at a decent time that suits the fans to get there or for the audience at home, a decent time to watch it .

      Think about that. They cannot show their own country’s team playing on their so called own broadcaster and it ain’t because they got a fantastic deal with Sky or BT.

      What’s even worse is Scottish football is only covered/promoted from the angle that 4 times a year there could be carnage which is a pretty pathetic way to promote your game.

      It’s just not good enough.

      The SFA are not alone.

      Many many years ago, my local team was run by the local business men. They owned the shops that were open, they owned the shops that lay empty. They called the shots as to who got to open a new shop. They held sway.

      Someone suggested to one of the traders that the local up and coming rugby player could be sponsored by his business. “Why would I do that?” Was his response. He was happy with the way things were and couldn’t see the benefit . Everyone locally knew he was so why would he promote this lad?

      The rugby player went on to play for Scotland, the businessmen with their ’foresight’ sold their empty shops and Asda moved in.

      Now we have 1 shop.

    85. Ken500 says:

      Sectarian ruined football in Scotland. The violent, vile behaviour and offence sicken many. Paedo, bigots and racists running the Clubs. Football clubs not paying taxes. It’s the same in many places. Other people paying for it, No wonder the terraces are empty. The punters being taken for mugs. Overpaid prima donnas. They need a change of marketing practices. Instead of a fest of foreign tax evaders trying to make money out of sport.

      UK TV company can’t even show the tennis (US) once a year. Without a subscription to tax evaders. They should be fined not encouraged,

    86. How much are we paying Alex McLeish to humiliate Scotland?
      Serial failure retiree gets how much pa to continue where Strachan and Levein left off.
      1-9-1, because we are shite?
      Players from teams with incredible talent who are accustomed to winning, and playing at the highest level, with Liverpool, Celtic, Southampton, are instructed to park the bus. They are brainwashed into believing that when they pull on the National jersey,they are a pub team, and every other nation in the world can tank us.
      Of course the SFA is a wee nasty clique of Establishment blazers.
      They are Unionists, who believe that England will always be our superiors.
      How much are we paying this tired old failure for more humiliating failure?
      £1 million a year?
      Sack him now before Albania rattle 4 past us on Monday.
      Job done, Alex. Serves us right for drawing 2-2 with the mighty England, those tall magnificent specimens of mankind which Strachan insists we short arsed Scottish malnourished runts are not genetically programmed to beat at anything.
      WE pay these chancers and Vote No Yoons millions to fuck up Scottish Football.
      Played 5, lost 4.
      Taxi for McLeish.
      The SFA will appoint his namesake Henry to chair an Enquiry into why Scotland is so shite at Football.
      And so the vicious cycle continues.
      Is it a ‘masonic’ thing? Seriously, I ask genuinely.
      Which other business repeatedly rewards abject failure?
      Sack McLeish now. I’m available for Monday.

    87. Ken500 says:

      The taxman cometh 2019. £70Million owed. Her Maj customs and excise.

      JP has to renegotiate £200Million of debts. A fire sale.

      Total taxes raise in the UK. £628Billion. Other revenues £92Billion. (1/12 should accure to Scotland? £7Billion+)

      Scotland raises £60Billion in tax revenues. (Plus £7Billion+ ). £67Billion+ .

      Scotland loses £4Billion+ in Oil revenues (Tory high taxes), £3Billion in tax evasion (Taxes not enforced by UK Gov), Scotland can’t borrow £5Billion? Pays too much for Defence £1Billion Has to pay loans on UK debt not borrowed or spent in Scotland. £3Billion, Total £16Billion.

      If Scotland sold the surplus fuel and energy instead of giving it away £9Billion.. Scotland pays more for fuel and energy, despite being in surplus and nearer the source, because it is colder.

      £25Billion. Scotland would raise £67Billion+ + £25Billion = £92Billion+

      Even more with improved fishing terms and conditions. Using bigger nets.

      UK raises £720Billion + borrowings,

      Why has NHS been cut £4Billion a year. Education cut £6Billion a year (£3Billion student loans which will be got back). Why saddle young people with debt? Welfare cuts £3Billion a year. £13Billion a year of hardship. When these essential services should be supported.

      Tax cuts for the wealthiest.

      Independence would make Scotland much better off. Instead of tanking with Brexit (£8Billion loss).

      Scotland would be on par with Norway Independent. Norway £80Billion+ taxes raised. With double the wages.

      UK Gov Accounts. P96/97

    88. Terry says:

      McLeish has the neck to sing “When will we see your like again”.

      You had you chance in Sept 2014 Alex and you told Scotland to get it right fuckin up ye’.

      BritNat McLeish is happy for Scotland to be subservient to his English masters for eternity.

      Watch out for hos fellow BritNat Ally Mcoist wanting his shot at humiliating us.

    89. Ken500 says:

      Alex Salmond should have been there at the Wind Turbine and the AWPR opening. He got the funding and these projects built, which will vastly improve the NE/Scottish economy. The AWPR should be called the Alex Salmond Highway. The greatest project ever seen in the NE. After £Billions were sent to Westminster Treasury coffers, with precious little to show for it.

      Alex Salmond has been treated extremely badly. A disgrace,

      The wind turbines are an eye sore and should have been out further out or up or down the coast.

      The Unionists have ruined Aberdeen City/shire. Wasted £Millions on projects of no value. No one wanted. Groteque monstrosities, Aberdeen City £1.2Million in debt. Spending £200Million on a monstrosity shops and offices. When there are shops and offices sitting empty. £300Million spent on a Conference Centre with no business case. The present one is used on average once a month.

      The City Centre should have been pedestrianised with open spaces, The UTG project only £20Million and supported. It would have pedestrianised the City. Instead of shutting essential roads and causing more traffic chaos and congestion. Complete mismanagement.

      The Shire in an £Billion HQ’s for 70 councillors. Just a disgrace. It should be sold to build a better community HQ, schools and better essential services. Both teachers short with overcrowded schools. Using the statutory limit as the norm. (30) Trying to cut allocated funding. When the class sizes should be kept down and additional needs supported.

      Aberdeen City Council unionists kept in place by a two job Tory and a LibDem turned Independent. When the SNP got the most number of candidates. In the Shire Gordon the LibDems voted Tory and thousand did not vote in the GE. It was raining. The Tories used dark money spending over the limit. The landowners, some not paying council tax, holding sway in the Council elections. LibDem/Tory. More fool them.

    90. Nana says:

      Some rare sense on today’s Theresa May’s Skripal statements from Alex Vassiliev, Russian journalist, writer, and espionage historian living in London who is a subject matter expert in the Soviet KGB and Russian SVR
      https://twitter.com/robinmonotti/status/1037381677423706117

      Here they are window shopping
      https://twitter.com/Ian56789/status/1037793894908526592

    91. stu mac says:

      @Jack collatin says:
      8 September, 2018 at 7:25 am
      How much are we paying Alex McLeish to humiliate Scotland?
      =============================

      I would imagine enough to pay of his EBT since HMRC are after the ex-‘Gers (not GERS) men for the unpaid tax. SFA aye willin’ tae help the ex Queen’s eleven and all connected with it.

    92. Nana says:

      https://news.gov.scot/news/funding-for-winter-resilience

      Intriguing
      https://macalbasite.wordpress.com/2018/09/07/do-you-see-it/

      I asked DEFRA how many seasonal workers were required in July. Their estimate was 64,200. Their pilot scheme allows only 2,500.
      https://twitter.com/PeteWishart/status/1038064022514483205

      The story caused a sensation but quickly fell under a cloud of doubt. Now the release of the final court judgment in the case leaves the newspaper’s reputation in shreds
      https://www.byline.com/column/68/article/2281

    93. Dorothy Devine says:

      Nana , a big thank you for John Swinney – bloody marvellous and started my Saturday off with a bang!

    94. Nana says:

      Good morning Dorothy
      It’s a great sight to see. It’s not often John Swinney lets rip, but when he does it’s always a blast 🙂

      But as always the cons just laugh, useless criminally incompetent shower of useless cretins.

    95. Nana says:

      I can feel their fear

      Democracy – Rennie style, threats and blackmail
      http://archive.is/FIAtM

    96. Robert Peffers says:

      @Nana says: 8 September, 2018 at 9:36 am:

      … Democracy – Rennie style, threats and blackmail.

      Let’s just face it Nana, the LibDems were never going to vote for the SG budget in the first place so it really isn’t a threat because the SG knew that. What it really is was Wee Willie begging Nicola not to hold a referendum that would end every LibDem MPs and MSPs places on the unionist Gravy Train forever.
      http://archive.is/FIAtM

    97. Macart says:

      @Nana

      Good choices this morning Nana. Especially liked the FMs CBI speech.

      As for Mr Rennie and his proposal? Couldn’t agree more. Purely driven by fear.

      Oh, and Mr Rennie (we know your folk read these threads)? Mibbies worth considering just how that statement comes across to folk. Scotland’s parliament has had this vote. You’re seeking to turn over legislation that’s already been voted upon in order to suit your personal agenda and there’s really no way to dress that up as anything else. Folk would be forgiven for reaching the very worst possible conclusions when describing such a threat and it is a threat, yes?

      Not a good look.

      Given your party’s already been caught with its pants down attempting to undermine a democratic ballot in the UK (see under Frenchgate). You’ll mibbies understand when folk jump to those conclusions.

      Just sayin’.

    98. Nana says:

      @Robert
      Likely you are correct Robert, but my goodness it shows just how nasty wee Wullie is.
      Absolutely no interest in health, education, services of which the budget is all about. Just anti independence so he can get his ermine collar.

      @Macart
      Indeed Wullie is feart his wee job is coming to an end, which hopefully will be soon. I am even prepared to help him pack!

    99. Colin Dawson says:

      The chart would be more informative if it compared service users with those that don’t use the service. That would more clearly demonstrate the power of anti-Scottish propaganda from the overwhelmingly British Nationalist mainstream media in Scotland.

    100. Tinto Chiel says:

      You’d to go along way to find a Scottish politician as utterly irrelevant and insignificant as Wee Willie Winkie. I bet Nicola’s quaking in her boots about the budget.

      The only reason he “contributes” at all at Hollyrood is in the desperate hope of getting a wee pat on the head from his handler and a touch of ermine for the services he has rendered to a foreign power.

    101. Collie says:

      In this day and age of multi media , Sky News told us of Jamie Murray’s triumph in the US Open accompanied with Photograph of him shaking hands with his partner.



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