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Stakeholder engagement

Posted on September 08, 2018 by

Kenny McBride is a Wings reader. This is his personal experience and view. 

A couple of weeks ago Ian Small, BBC Scotland’s Head of Public Policy, wrote an article for the Scotsman addressing the question of anti-independence bias at Pacific Quay. Naturally he defended the Corporation strongly, but he also made what seemed like an invitation:

The issue over BBC content being posted online brought a further consequence, with over 200 people turning up at Pacific Quay in Glasgow last week to demonstrate against BBC bias. We offered to talk. That offer still stands. We want to engage, constructively, in dialogue with those who question our journalism or are suspicious of our decision-making.”

I was sceptical, of course, but nothing ventured, nothing gained, so I decided to act.

I didn’t want to go in without hauners, and I knew who I wanted by my side: David Hooks. I actually knew Dave back when we were both boy sopranos in a choir, but we reconnected recently when I saw this video:

I knew Dave was determined to see a better media landscape in Scotland and had a good grasp of the issues. I got in touch with him and we made a plan of action. We called the BBC and fairly quickly got to speak to Mr. Small’s secretary. She was very friendly and immediately offered us an appointment for yesterday.

We were met by Mr. Small and his colleague Alasdair MacLeod, the head of Editorial Policy and Compliance for BBC Scotland, who offered us tea, coffee and biscuits and were generally very welcoming. We didn’t expect to have much time, so we got right down to business.

In advance of the meeting, we sent an agenda/summary of our concerns to try help make the meeting go smoothly and be sure of saying all we wanted to say. This is what it looked like:

KEY CONCERNS

Structural Bias

– England as Britain: not enough distinction given to Scottish differences within the UK and those that are given tend to be negative comparisons. Not enough clarity on what is devolved versus reserved and often blurring that line. “National” news routinely covers England-only issues (e.g. education, policing, national sports teams) but only rarely covers stories from the other nations of the UK.

Reporting Scotland is required to cover not only Scottish national stories in the same way as the “national” news but also cover stories that would be “regional” news in England. This leads to a perception of Scottish issues as parochial and insignificant.

– Lack of Scotland-specific political coverage: total airtime for Scottish political programming has fallen substantially in recent years. This is particularly problematic as this fall has coincided with an increase in the responsibilities of the Scottish Parliament.

Proposals:

BBC Scotland should lobby BBC HQ for greater resources and more input into “national” news programming.

BBC Scotland should reinstate Scotland 2018/Newsnight Scotland with appropriate resources and consider a daily show comparable to Politics Live.

BBC Scotland should lobby Westminster parliament for devolution of broadcasting to the Scottish Parliament.

Editorial Policy

Almost half of the country supports independence but there is a significant lack of representation of this in most current affairs and cultural programming.

Guests on commentary shows are often vehemently anti-independence and those who are pro-independence are often unrepresentative of the movement as a whole but rather of smaller, fringe groups.

Methods of reporting and interview often appear biased towards a unionist perspective:

There is an apparent pattern (especially on Sunday Politics Scotland) of an SNP representative being interviewed remotely or before the broadcast with 3 opposition representatives then given the chance to debate and rebut what was said with no easy right of reply for the SNP.

Newspaper reviews (and allowing newspapers to lead the agenda) poses a specific problem due to the disproportionate number of strongly unionist newspapers and an almost complete absence of reference to websites which may have comparable readerships and trust levels to mainstream newspapers.

Stories involving the Scottish Government often refer to “the SNP government” where the UK government is mentioned without party name

Similarly, when a councillor, MP or MSP is involved in any kind of scandal, there is an apparent pattern of referring to that person’s party only when that party is the SNP.

Differential reporting of accusations against SNP or their representatives versus other parties

Michelle Thompson and Alex Salmond vs Ruth Davidson, Alistair Majury and David Mundell

Nicola Sturgeon was doorstepped about Jenna Marra’s false claim regarding an NHS payoff on Monday but on Tuesday Ruth Davidson was named in a headline for criticising Boris Johnson’s burka remarks without even appearing on screen, with no mention made of her own councillors, MPs and MSPs apparent epidemic of racism and bigotry.

Bias by omission and story selection

It often appears that positive stories about Scotland and the Scottish Government are given a lower news value (shorter items, lower down the running order) than negative stories.

Lack of pursuit of Ruth Davidson over the “Dark Money” scandal and over racism and bigotry in her party. This is particularly problematic given that BBC journalists have expressed their frustration at Davidson’s lack of availability for interview, yet this stonewalling has never become a story in itself nor led to the kind of doorstepping that the FM faces regularly.

Proposals:

On each press or news review segment, prominent new media sites should be included in the review. A pro-independence commentator should always be present to offer the alternative perspective to the (almost exclusively) unionist newspapers.

BBC should commission and publish independent academic research to examine BBC news output for signs of bias and to make recommendations for improvements where needed.

Conduct an internal review of editorial policy to examine how decisions about story selection and running order are made.

Transparency and trust

The BBC’s complaints procedure is unwieldy and difficult to navigate. Complaints are often met with evasion, deflection and obfuscation.

BBC Scotland is unreasonably secretive, misusing journalistic exemptions to FOI requests to avoid even providing viewership figures to journalists.

BBC journalists often seem combative and overly defensive on social media. This is not helpful in building trust.

Proposals:

Simplify the complaints procedure and seek independent scrutiny of the process.

Monitor complaints and respond meaningfully and publicly to the most common ones.

Be more open and transparent about the inner workings of the organisation. Avoid using journalistic FOI exemptions to prevent the release of information that cannot realistically be considered a journalistic source in need of protection.

Engage meaningfully with the independence movement through public and private meetings to rebuild trust.

We tried to work through this systematically, but in any conversation tangents are inevitable. We began with the structural issues since these are the ones we felt we might have the greatest agreement on.

We highlighted the “News Where You Are” problem in depth, discussing the conflation of England and the UK in “national” news and current affairs programmes, the recent decline in political programming in Scotland and the complications of guest selection for shows like Question Time.

Our hosts agreed this was a real problem. No immediate answers were forthcoming, but they did stress that the recent correction made on the “national” news about GERS had been as a result of bosses at BBC Scotland yelling at their London colleagues about how important it was to get this stuff right.

According to them, they insisted that the correction even be delivered in the same slot the next day so that it would reach as close as possible to the same audience as had heard the original mistake.

They also hoped that the news hour on the new BBC Scotland channel would help to redress some of the imbalance, as would a new political magazine show that is in development for the channel. There was also a slightly more nebulous hope that the new channel would have the resources to produce more content for the network, thus inserting more Scottish content into Politics Live and Newsnight.

There were obviously no guarantees about any of this, but both men stressed that the BBC in London has been told that if the channel fails, it will be the fault of Broadcasting House for not supporting it enough, and not Pacific Quay who failed to deliver.

Their ambition is laudable and I believed their intentions were good. Of course, the success of the channel’s news output will be determined by whether our editorial concerns are addressed.

We accepted, as Derek Bateman and others have said, that there’s probably no grand conspiracy to denigrate independence, its supporters, the SNP and Scotland. Nevertheless, we perceive significant problems in how things are done at the BBC. This part of the discussion covered several different topics from different angles, including interviewing styles, story framing, headline selection, running orders, accuracy and unequal treatment of each side of the constitutional debate.

Unsurprisingly, this was when our hosts became most defensive. However, they did listen to all we had to say and on a few issues we saw both take notes on things they wanted to check up on. When we mentioned the “Protecting Ruth Davidson” video we were met with a passionate retort of “I can assure you we don’t protect Ruth Davidson!” After we went into some of the details of how we perceived things though, that defence became much more muted.

Everyone has biases. It is possible that all the bias we see is actually our own confirmation bias letting us see what we want to see. We acknowledged that and so two of our key recommendations were that BBC Scotland should commission independent research to identify any areas for improvement and conduct an internal review to determine how decisions on running order and story selection are made. There are ways to reduce bias and ways to check for unconscious bias. We urge the BBC to do so.

Our final concern was transparency and trust and again, on this issue there was a fair level of agreement. We talked about the BBC’s almost universal rejection of FOI requests. Ian Small himself is responsible for much of their FOI compliance and he felt there was some misunderstanding about FOI. He claims that on most occasions, the best thing to do is just to call him and ask for the information, while FOI requests have to be treated within a very narrow scope.

We don’t know how true this is, but we hope journalists from the pro-indy side of the fence will take the advice on board and let us know how they get on.

Our hosts recognised that the BBC Complaints procedure is clunky, slow and frustrating, but they also insisted that it is scrupulously fair and honest and that the third stage of the process can even be intimidating for them as it is seriously forensic. We also talked about the behaviour of BBC journalists and officials in dealing with the public. They agreed that it was the BBC’s job to rebuild trust and that they would look into any ways they could do so.

The meeting lasted almost two hours – far longer than we had expected – and we both left feeling about as positive as possible. There was no outright admission of guilt but no-one expected that. There was an acknowledgement though, that some things don’t work very well and need to be improved.

Our hosts agreed to review our concerns, look into a few specific issues that arose and get back to us in a week or so to update us on what actions they plan to take. As we said several times during the meeting, our solution would be to become an independent country with its own national broadcaster, but we have to work with what we’ve got and make our existing institutions better. They were committed to listening politely, if nothing else.

We can only hope that meaningful action will be forthcoming. We believe that if the new channel is to be a success then some of our proposed actions MUST be taken.

In the meantime, if you have a group that would like to talk to the BBC about its news output, now is the time to ask for that meeting. If you have something you want to say, write them a letter.

We often complain that we don’t get the BBC we deserve and that it doesn’t listen to its customers/owners very well. For once it appears that they’re listening, so let’s make ourselves heard.

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    805 to “Stakeholder engagement”

    1. Macart says:

      @Nana

      Cheers Nana. Plenty to get through and yes Mr Wishart’s piece well worth the inclusion.

      Two cups worth there. 🙂

    2. Breeks says:

      HYUFD is more to be pitied than scorned.

      Just imagine a very British childhood, adolecence, and whatever life you enjoy beyond, and from start to finish, you were thrilled by Spitfires and winning two world wars all by yourself, and you’ve believed every single word of the shitey propaganda and distorted narrative you’ve been fed, and never once dared to doubt or question the lies or your alleged British exceptionalism.

      There is an absence of process, a blinding bias in the analysis, and fear that awkward notions you find unpalateable are just the tip of a thoroughly malevolent iceberg.

      It’s like the BBC. Yes, it is reviled for its bias and BritNat agenda, but ask yourself who is actually more damaged by it? Us Independentists who recognise the lies and distortions, but then question everything and seek independent validation? Or the BritNat deadheads who lap up every myth, edict and narrative and accept it all as gospel truth? Think about it folks. They NEED their BBC. We don’t.

      Ask Keanu Reeves’ character in the Matrix whether those still asleep in blissfull ignorance with the plugs in their necks are the blessed ones, or whether the truth, however beautiful or ugly, is the prize worth fighting for.

      For BritNats, it doesn’t matter whether the 18th and 19th Century Brits were murderous bastards, just as long as “somebody” was more murderous. It doesn’t matter that a population was given an ultimatum of starve or comply, because you can blame the deaths on disease or pestilence, and absolve the Empire of its guilty roll. Repeat ad nauseum that the American Indians tragically died of measles spread inadveretantly by settlers, and quietly erase the dirty obscenity of winter blankets laced with smallpox provided by their all-conquering land grabbing invaders.

      Aye, pity the BritNats. When they look in Galadrial’s mirror, the murderous orcs they see looting, burning and pillaging will all be wearing redcoats.

      And yes, Scotland played its own bloody and shameful part in the Empire. We undoubtedly deserve a place in the Hall of Shame, but that shame teaches us humility and respect for brother cultures. We Scots can look into our past, warts and all, and work through our denial, and the “honesty filter” puts the whole British Empire into an ugly and exploitative perspective.

      Take the plug out your neck HYUFD. The sins of the Empire can be managed and in large part attributed to bygone values, misguided standards and sentiments. But to embrace those deluded exceptionalisms as modern values, and worse, seek to rebuilt the bloodsoaked realm of British Imperialism is proof that you BritNats have learned absolutely nothing.

      Britishness and its colonialist greed and Empire turned Scots into something groteque and ugly. And right now, in the Middle East, we seem co-joined with a similar blood thirsty irrational nastiness that cannot recognise the evil in how the Palestinians and wider Muslim nations are being dealt with and manipulated. It is the same murderous colonialsm.

      Well not again. Not in my name. “My” Scotland would show it’s mettle as an Honourable upstanding Nation defending these people and extending them justice, not tormenting them, grinding them to dust, killing them with impunity, and turning their brother against brother.

    3. Jock McDonnell says:

      @Nana

      Thanks

      We should all watch the Mike Russell video. Heartening. Good questions. All those thoughts, questions, scenarios we imagine, are out there, shared by so many others.

      Russell’s comments on a referendum- very welcome.

    4. Nana says:

      Morning Robert 8.26am

      Here’s a few more

      No point archiving as there’s a poll
      http://www.eveningtimes.co.uk/news/16831373.scottish-independence-movement-in-great-health-as-snp-continues-to-build-fresh-case/

      The bbc were desperate for the far right to win
      https://twitter.com/Unwariest/status/1038897682826371072

      Syria’s UN representative Bashar Al-Jaafari in an important speech on #Idlib yesterday at the Security Council.
      Watch here
      https://twitter.com/walid970721/status/1038353444187385856

      Morning Petra, blood pressure rising proves you’re alive 🙂

      Macart says

      “The truly depressing and frankly insulting part of where we find ourselves today? Is that neither the UK state’s representation or their British Nationalist support, are willing to own responsibility for it”

      Indeed Sam, ignorant stupid people who are and never were fit for office.
      Fox who has spent the last 2yrs saying everything will be rosy. Criminally insane if you ask me.
      https://twitter.com/SAshworthHayes/status/1039029348152553472

      Nana says

      Wingers please stop encouraging the Britnat trolls, scroll on by and ignore the ignorant.

    5. stu mac says:

      I have to say I was a bit disappointed with the Sunday National, seemed rather bland to me. Of course it may need a bit of time to find its feet. (I appreciate too they may be producing it with little extra staff/support).

      The daily National has gotten a bit bland too recently I think, though I will continue to support it as our only voice. It still has some excellent columnists. Maybe that’s what the Sunday ed. lacks.

      Another thing about the National, apart from their pro-Indy line, they are too willing to accept the establishment line on a number of issues. If they don’t have the nerve to challenge that they should at least add “the PM claims”, “the US claims”. Better if they gave alternative voices to these issues more often.

    6. Petra says:

      Did anyone read the John Robertson / calf link that I posted at 8:13am? He outlined what was broadcast on BBC Scotland this morning, which I also heard earlier.

      Now the BBCScot news has altered their spiel with them dropping … “Yet none (calfs) was exported from England.”

      Did someone at BBCScot read the JR blog and decide to drop the “faux pas?”

      I’m beginning to wonder if lack of knowledge has something to do with some of the “blunders?” If so, it’s clear that many independence supporters would make for brilliant Scottish researchers / advisors to the BBC, such as John Robertson and Stu Campbell.

    7. Nana says:

      This query from Indyref2

      Not on #BBCGMS this morning. Pete Wishart’s claim that the UK Tory Govt is refusing to allow SNP MPs the same access to Govt ministers as Scottish Tory MPs.

      Gary Robertson’s response
      He’s said this on #bbcgms in the past
      https://twitter.com/BBCGaryR/status/1039043439294402560

      @Ian Small Hello???
      BBC Scotland not fit for purpose.

    8. Macart says:

      @Nana

      Mr Fox providing a QED moment. The appalling dishonesty and disconnect from responsibility is mindboggling. They spout any amount of pish to secure the agenda du jour and when it all goes pear shaped on them? All the public ever receives is the political equivalent of ‘WHAT? YOU DIDN’T HAVE TO BELIEVE ME’.

      They literally wash their hands of yesterday’s scheme and move onto the next soundbite having left a wake of misery and shattered lives in their wake.

      NO!

      They shouldn’t be allowed to get away with this. They shouldn’t be allowed to forget what they’ve done to so many and there should be consequences at the ballot.

    9. galamcennalath says:

      There appears to be a narrative running parallel to reality making the media rounds.

      “As many as 80 Conservative MPs are prepared to vote against the prime minister’s Chequers plan, a former Brexit minister has warned.”

      Under what circumstances does anyone envisage ‘Chequers’ making it in front of WM to be voted upon?

      Even saying 80 MPs reject it seems irrelevant when it has already been widely rejected.

      The agenda is, for reasons I can’t quite see, to imply that ‘Chequers’ will be accepted by the EU. The main ideas in it run contrary to the EU,s only red line – no cherry picking of the single market’s benefits.

      http://archive.is/dO0Kr

    10. Macart says:

      ‘Having left a wake of misery and shattered lives behind them’. (keyboard playing catchup with fingers)

      NEVER type when you’re pure beelin’. 🙄

    11. Shinty says:

      Petra says:
      10 September, 2018 at 8:17 am
      The latest from Professor John Robertson:

      https://thoughtcontrolscotland.com/2018/09/10/bbc-scotland-imply-snp-involved-in-cruelty-to-young-boy-calves-unlike-bse-england/

      ——-

      Don’t watch the BBC, but this is pathetic even by their standards.

    12. Petra says:

      @ Stu Mac at 9:10am ….. “Sunday National.”

      I give up, FGS. Amazing how some Scots seem to be extremely expert, adept, at undermining the independence cause.

      I’m still dipping into the SN and reckon it’s excellent. The newspaper, magazine and supplement, with full page coverage of the Nicola Sturgeon “The 10 things that changed my life”, full of info. What more do you want?

      More than anything, both newspapers are the only newspapers in the UK that afford key independence supporters a voice. Please don’t be put off by people like stu mac, folks. Support the newspapers. Place an order at your local newsagents or subscribe online.

      https://weegingerdug.wordpress.com/2018/09/08/the-sunday-national-front-page/

      …………………..

      Yes still alive ….. and kicking Nana. And I’ll keep on “kicking” until we get our independence.

      Good advice re. the trolls, Nana. Ignore or better still report to Stu. We’ve all got a responsibility to keep this site going …. attractive to visitors. Truth “benders” are not welcome.

    13. Nana says:

      Morning Jock 8.48am
      Mike Russell is a star and deserves an award for having to deal with the likes of Mundell and Lidington and the rest of the Tory idiots.

      Last links for now

      https://news.gov.scot/news/no-answers-to-basic-questions-on-future-eu-security-partnership

      ‘My life is in ruins’: wrongly deported Windrush people facing fresh indignity
      http://archive.is/73qWB

    14. Petra says:

      One of the articles in the Sunday National highlights the story of the laughing granny. A Scot now living in Australia reading a story to her grandchild. 3.4 million views on YouTube.

      Check out ‘The Wonky Donky’ by the Scottish granny or Janice Clark.

    15. cearc says:

      Somewhat on topic, from Politico’s european news letter.

      ‘Controversy at public broadcaster: The political editor of Sweden’s national broadcaster’s election program was replaced Saturday after liking two tweets by the Sweden Democrats’

      If only…

    16. vlad (not that one) says:

      O/T There is a private criminal prosecution afoot in England against Boris Johnson MP, for the common law offence of misconduct in public office.

      There is a crowdfunder (but by the time you read this it will probably have reached the target). However, the organiser is asking for help with publicity, see https://www.crowdfunder.co.uk/brexitjusticeprosecution/updates/?

    17. Ghillie says:

      Breeks 8.46 am

      What you said.

      Very very well said and with passion.

      Thank you =)

    18. vlad (not that one) says:

      Correction, I stupidly misread the target by a factor of 10. So there is some way to go yet.

      By the way, the £350,000,000 per week is at the heart of prosecution.

    19. Daisy Walker says:

      Thank you Nana for the links – just spent an hour watching Mike Russell’s Brexit Briefing.

      What a refreshing change it makes to listen to a professional, fully in charge of his brief, providing clear, intelligent and sometimes complex answers to questions, rather than trite sound bites. Quality. And what a good turn out they had down in Dumfriess.

      There’s nothing good about Brexit. Absolute madness. Brexshit and Bad.

      Yes we can, now we must.

    20. Robert Peffers says:

      @Liz g says: 10 September, 2018 at 12:53 am:

      ” … Robert I think that Defo @ 9.10 was being supportive and complimentary.”

      Hi! Liz g, I attempted to reply earlier but the comment vanished as I typed. I’ve had such problems before but now I realise it is caused by Wings itself. It happens when a thread goes over the set number of comments and splits as older and newer comments. It seems to also happen if a new topic is beginning. So not as I had thought some kind of attack.

      Anyhow, on the subject of Defo selecting me for a mention in dispatches. I saw it as an unwarranted snipe at me. Defo was attempting to drag me into a dogfight in which I had no dog entered in the contest.

      I had not replied nor commented upon, the current zoomer. In fact after the first couple of the zoomer’s comments I had not even read them. So Defo was well out of order in selecting me for special mention.

      I have no intention of being drawn into that particular fight either. It was, in the first place, far too obvious an outrageous idiot who never in this life would be other than an obvious English Nationalist of the worst kind.

      In the second place Defo had no need to attempt to drag me into the dogfight.

      “… I read it as… Even though ye can run rings round them it’s a good choice not to rise to the bait!!
      Jist sayin'”

      Sorry but I saw it as attempting to drag me into a ridiculous bun0fight. Subsequently Defo’s comments showed Defo’s true colours.

      Accusing me of abuse while actually abusing me, Then attempting to chase me from commenting on Wings and suggesting I should start my own Blog.

      Now consider this – there is another commenter here on Wings who has tried that articular line of attack many times. Now that puts me between, “A Rock”, and a hard place.

      Aye!

      Richt!

      Anyway! I’m not biting to either the English Nationalist zoomer nor to would be abusers like Defo. I will be ignoring Defo as I ignore Rock. Why would I want to waste my time on obvious zoomers or attempting to decipher some form of shorthand full of initials because the commenter cannot be bothered typing in a recognisable language.

      Use of initials is normal – but only if they are instantly recognisable. Like BBC, UK, USA. NHS. However, you will notice that most of those examples can, and are, used as propaganda.

      The BBC is British but is funded by Her Majesty’s Government

      Westminster uses UK to deflect the reader from the fact it means a bipartite union and not a country.

      The United States of America is a misnomer as their next door neighbour is also a united States of America. The correct name of Mexico is, “The United States Of Mexico”, and each of those states of Mexico us in the Americas.

      The NHS is not a single organisation as each United Kingdom country has an independent NHS. That is each individual United Kingdom NATION has a independent NATIONAL Health Service. The UK is not a nation it is a two partner kingdom.

      So there’s the truth – commenting in a form that uses initials is a known form of brainwashing to mislead the thinking of the public.

      Last week I read a text news service report of a new treatment being accepted by, “The NHS”, for the condition of Enlarged Prostate Gland in male patients.

      I wonder how many members of the public though, “I wonder which NHS has accepted that treatment”? I’d venture the guess they are a minority. BTW the report was by the BBC but carried by a well known News agency who obviously had not realise their report did not make clear which NHS had accepted the new treatment.

      Try telling such as Defo that commenting with a string of initials is incomprehensible and you will get accused of being abusive – Hope you get my points.

    21. jfngw says:

      The BBC have the same outlook to the government regarding Scotland, Wales and Northern Ireland. They are under the control of BBC Nations and Regions directorate, hence they have the same status as say Lincolnshire within the BBC. Also as the the UK government there is no England Nation representative at the table, they don’t need one as they are in control.

      BBC Scotland are autonomous as long as they keep out of matters considered to be UK responsibility reserved to London. It is intentionally set up as a parochial service whose remit is to defend the integrity of the UK. When you understand this then their coverage of Scotland is fully explained.

    22. stu mac says:

      @Petra says:
      10 September, 2018 at 10:05 am
      @ Stu Mac at 9:10am ….. “Sunday National.”

      I give up, FGS. Amazing how some Scots seem to be extremely expert, adept, at undermining the independence cause.

      ===============

      And how excavate is criticising the National “undermining the independence cause”??

      I stated I would continue to buy it. I just wish it were better. But I’m entitled to an opinion as are you, however I don’t criticise you for your opinion as you do mine.

      Always going to be disagreement over the National as it is one single Indy paper and not going to please everybody. We should have more then we can stick to the one we prefer. We all have different opinions except on the one that we should have an Independent Scotland where all opinions are really taken into account unlike under the UK control.

    23. Tinto Chiel says:

      “The United Kingdom was an aggressive predatory criminal enterprise. The British Empire is something we should all be utterly ashamed of.”

      Couldn’t agree more, galamcennalath. Britnats are always very keen to remind us of the part we played in that ghastly enterprise, such as providing the cannon fodder in military operations/occupations or the functionaries of empire in far-flung places. They’re not so keen on confronting the Scottish domestic consequences, such as massive emigration and the appalling slums and industrial conditions in cities like Glasgow and Dundee. It’s hard to see the Empire Dividend in all that for people back home.

      They often gleefully point too to the like of Scots Jardine and Matheson, who made a fortune getting the Chinese hooked on opium and dealing in raw materials “acquired” in other countries in the Far East but that was a commercial enterprise centred on Hong Kong. Who benefited back home in Scotland?

      Britnats seem blissfully unaware that for many people around the world, the Union Jack will evoke feelings akin to seeing the swastika, such has been the brainwashing regarding the greatest land-grab in world history.

    24. susan says:

      Jfngw@11.21: Never a truer word spoken (or typed rather).

    25. Nana says:

      A reminder and reason the bbc to promotes right wing parties.

      The Conservatives have entered an alliance with a far-right anti-immigration party from Sweden, prompting accusations they are “worryingly comfortable in the company of right-wing extremists
      http://archive.is/N0oqN

      http://www.politics.co.uk/comment-analysis/2018/09/10/brexit-is-sabotaging-the-british-video-games-industry

      A Brexiteer called James O’Brien to defend a no-deal Brexit and ending up admitting it will be better if we stay in the EU.
      Watch here
      https://www.lbc.co.uk/radio/presenters/james-obrien/brexiteer-calls-defend-no-deal-uturn/

      No point archiving
      Video here
      https://news.sky.com/story/brexit-forensics-how-do-you-solve-a-problem-like-the-borders-11489739

    26. Collie says:

      I don’t pay the License Fee but if I did I would not be too happy at the way the English have hijacked Radio 1, 2,3,4,5,6 and all the rest of the stations run by the BBC.

      They keep you right up to date with with what is happening in English sport, local government, hospitals, education etc…

      And the poor old listeners in Scotland Wales and N Ireland have to sit back and accept it.

      If only we had a away of getting out of this rotten Union.

      Oh wait, there is one way and that is to vote YES in IndyRef2.

    27. Sarah says:

      Truthfulness in politics and MSM is all that we Yessers are asking for.

      So the link given by Vlad [not that one] at 10.52 and 11.00 a.m. to a crowdfunder to prosecute Boris Johnson for lying about the “£350 m to EU” is worth a read. IMHO it is also worth supporting in money and/or publicity.

    28. Ian Brotherhood says:

      Rev rt’d this poem by Brian Bilston.

      Ahm buckled here – it’s utter genius and deserves to be seen by abody.

      🙂 🙂 🙂

      https://twitter.com/WingsScotland?ref_src=twsrc%5Egoogle%7Ctwcamp%5Eserp%7Ctwgr%5Eauthor

    29. Ghillie says:

      Nana @ 10.12 am

      Amongst all the crap the good folk of Scotland have to endure, the plight of the Windrush scandal folk, and similarly effected folk, haunts me.

      My family had the enormous privilege to live and work in the Caribbean Community in the 1960s and the tales of rejection of folk from the Caribbean who, in good faith, made their home on the British Isles, the ‘Mother Country’, breaks my heart.

      In the grand scheme of the entire population of the British Isles we are surely looking at numbers amounting to a handful of people. Folk who arrived as children a long time ago who know this place to be their home.

      Britain should be bloody flattered!

      Come Independence, I hope and pray, that in some way, with an open hearted welcome, that Scotland can recompense that shocking rejection and neglect and will create an easy to navigate bridge for folk who have their sense of home in more than one country =)

    30. Dr Jim says:

      Everybody’s getting it down to a fine art now

      1 If you don’t listen to me then you’re a nut job
      2 My information’s better than your information
      3 You can’t believe the media but believe me
      4 You can believe the media don’t believe somebody else

      I particularly like the one that goes *you’re entitled to your opinion but you’re wrong*
      That one is refer to statement 1

      I think we have to have pictures of everybody who posts on the internet now so we can just decide whether we like their face or not, after all we get to see pictures of all the politicians when they lie and talk mince and it would give us something else to criticise the ugly baskets for

      But the main thing it might do on a serious note is stop the trolls because we’d all know who they are then and so would their Mums!

    31. Jack Murphy says:

      I was going to suggest this week as ‘HUG A TORY WEEK’ until I read this disgusting piece of news.

      http://archive.fo/o47xo

      Toxic Tories are everywhere. 🙁

    32. galamcennalath says:

      Tinto Chiel says:

      Britnats seem blissfully unaware that for many people around the world, the Union Jack will evoke feelings akin to seeing the swastika

      I suspect most folks (especially in England) are completely unaware.

      I think if Brexit ever actually develops into negotiating trade agreements with ‘past victims’ there is bound to be an element of … “the boots on the other foot now”.

      Only the weakest will roll over existing EU deals into UK arrangements, most will seek to gain more. As for new agreements, they too will look on it as an opportunity to ‘rip off’ the UK this time round.

      On your original point, there will be some BritNats who are fully aware if the UK’s imperial history and be quite happy for the ‘good times’ to return. Good times for a tiny clique of elites, that is of course.

    33. Ghillie says:

      Dr Jim @ 11.56 am

      Thing is, quite rightly, their Mums knowing is what WILL most scare the trolls =)

      Wee souls.

    34. Breeks says:

      I reckon Dick Dastardly at the BBC, (no euphemism for something else, I reckon it is the actual Mr Dastardly in the flesh), must dratting, double dratting, and TRIPLE dratting that Sweden hasn’t elected a far right fascist government and declared war on Europe and immigrants…

      UK is still out in the cold, all by itself, after Brexit… not so much a Far Right Axis of Evil as a “Node of self righteous delusion” bobbing about in the Atlantic, keel-hauling Boris Johnson…

    35. Cubby says:

      Some commenters on Wings seem determined to give the BBC the benefit of the doubt that they are not a propaganda outfit ( 4 years on after the referendum – really).

      Some commenters seem to think they are not biased they are just incompetent, useless or not inherently biased against independence. If that is the case please direct me to one instance their incompetence has led to bias in FAVOUR of independence. Everything I ever see on the BBC is misleading bias against independence. Incompetence should lead to bias in both directions.

      How about the BBC doing a programme on the benefits of independence – ha ha moving into fantasy land.

      All the Mainstream media in Scotland is biased against independence ( except the National of course). The BBC is the worse because they peddle the falsehood that they are neutral, objective etc when in reality they are only doing their job which is to spread propaganda to promote and preserve the Union. At least all the billionaires who own newspapers and TV channels do not have the nerve to promote such a lie.

      If you work for the BBC and you are for Scottish independence you need to be clear that You work for an organisation whose mission statement includes promoting the UK and therefore rubbishing Scottish, Welsh or NIreland independence.

      I can see how some people may always want to see the best in organisations (particularly if they know decent people who work for the BBC) and hope they are not as bad as painted but, come on, the evidence has been there day after day if you look at the BBC output.

      The reality is that the BBC has been one of the most successful propaganda broadcasters for a long time but slowly and surely they are losing their control in Scotland.

    36. defo says:

      1/ Being pleasant is cost free.
      2/Others may not share your opinion, or outlook.
      3/ It’s just about possible, that one may be wrong.

    37. Brian Doonthetoon says:

      Hi IanB.

      Here’s the direct link to the “A Caveman Laments”.

      https://pbs.twimg.com/media/DmuZR3DXcAEn8s8.jpg:large

    38. Dr Jim says:

      Do we think people know that the Faroe Islands with a population of only 50 thousand actually has a far more powerful parliament than Scotland

      Of course in Grande Brittania speak the world ends at Skegness and no other world shall exist except in the minds of the faithless foreigner, the separatist aggressive Scots, the thick drunk Paddies and the ungrateful whinging Taffies

      Funny how they’ve got quaint nicknames for everybody else on the planet but they’re *Great* Britain

      Not so *Great* now Hee Hee! Polis on standby for riots, upcoming Hunger games and all the *Great* Britons still don’t believe it, because they’re *Grrreat*

    39. Robert Peffers says:

      @jfngw says: 10 September, 2018 at 11:21 am:

      ” … The BBC have the same outlook to the government regarding Scotland, Wales and Northern Ireland.”

      By coincidence there is great evidence of that on today’s BBC text service that is available of BBC Radio Scotland on Smart TVs.

      There is an item of “news”, under, Scottish News and Glasgow & West

      It is headlined LOUGE ERNE SEARCH FOR JET SKIER SUSPENDED.

      It reads:-

      A search for a man missing on Lough Erne has been called stood down for the night.

      Police, the RNLI and a helicopter from the Irish Coastguard were involve in the search.

      The RNLI said they were called to the Muckross area following a reports of a person in the water after an incident involving a jet ski at 17:30 BST on Sunday.

      One man was rescued from the water by a boat already in the area and the search began for a second man.

      Now Lough Erne is the name of two connected lakes/Lochs/Loughs in County Fermanagh, Northern Ireland. It isn’t even in Scotland and the spelling is quite different from our Scottish Loch Earn.

      So someone at BBC Scotland not only thinks Lough Erne is in Scotland but is ignorant that in Scotland there are no loughs.

      Why are Northern Irish news items being featured in local Glasgow and West Scotland local news pages?

      Oh! Wait! Maybe it is to placate the Loyal Orange Order folks in the West of Scotland.

    40. Dave McEwan Hill says:

      stu mac (earlier post)and a number of others on here should take on board that if we want any media support we have to work for us it has to be very accessible in content to those who are not yet with us.
      It must not look like an SNP tract and it must be interesting and entertaining and very readable.
      That’s the Sunday National.

    41. HYUFD says:

      Breeks Without the British Empire much of the world would not have Common Law, Westminster style democracy etc and.of course much of the success of Hong Kong and Singapore developed from economic principles laid down when the British arrived. I never said the Empire was perfect but not was it all bad either and Brexit or No Brexit it has now been succeeded by the Commonwealth.

      Israel of course is Jews only true homeland in the world after the Holocaust, I thought Scottish nationalists supported small nations?

    42. Capella says:

      re BBC Scotland – I saw this on Stu’s twitter and thought it summarised our situation perfectly:

      https://pbs.twimg.com/media/Dmpjac3WwAE8jm8.jpg:large

    43. Famous15 says:

      I smell shite.Someone is trying to shoehorn the SNP into the Labour antisemitism row.

      Comes a point Stu where someone is abusing your popularity and posting stuff theycould not get such wide coverage on their own merits. They are taking the piss out of you Stu. You are too nice.

    44. Shinty says:

      0/T

      Just watched the Scottish Affairs Committee – how some of those on the committee were elected, I do not know.
      My dog has more intelligence (and manners)

      The panel are excellent and worth a look.

      http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=e8zTQ679VS0

    45. Andy-B says:

      So the Tories really are in the midst of a civil war. I wonder if Ruthie will come out from behind the coatails of the media, who vehemently protect her, and let us all know what’s happening.

      Don’t hold your breath waiting on an answer.

    46. winifred mccartney says:

      BBC – Saturday night now allowing Saltires on sticks so a whole bin full of small flags with sticks and some confiscated – despite the fact EU flags allowed in London and Nick Robinson quipped’ the battle of the flags’ thought for a minute R4 talking about Scotland – some hope. The bbc say saltires were not banned just sticks due to health and safety except if the were UJ and on very large sticks, clearly seen.

      Then this morning and again at lunch time Reporting Scotland – young animals exported from Scotland none from England – that wouldn’t be because England still under BSE restrictions and cannot export. And they still say the bbc are not biased either that or ignorant of the facts.

    47. Tinto Chiel says:

      Yup, Breeks, the BBC is really running with the “almost a fifth of Swedes voted for the right” line on the radio this morning. Strange how it seems to ignore “almost” half voted for independence in 2014 in the “balance” and “impartiality” it laughably claims to provide in its public broadcaster role.

      Before the EU elections in the Netherlands, France and Germany last year, you could sense its desperate hope that England wouldn’t be alone in turning its back on Europe and allowing extreme right-wingers and closet racists to hijack the political process.

      Never mind,it’s still got intellectual giants like Boris and Rees-Mogg to root for.

    48. Dr Jim says:

      BBC EXPOSE! SNP good beef but Baad selling it

      Apparently the SNP are responsible for foreign countries not wanting to buy English beef now so Scotland must stop selling Scottish beef which is more popular than English beef or they’d be selling it too and not whingeing about nobody wanting it

      Oh and the SNP are sneaking Scottish beef out under the cover of darkness from Cairnryan which will make the animal rights people even more righteous about eating stuff everybody has always eaten

      I suspect this nonsense has more to do with the Irish border and trade issue than that of animal welfare, but the British state has to whip something up to maintain their case

      C’mon Kezia write something scathing

    49. Liz g says:

      Robert Peffers @ 11.20
      Hi Robert…. not to worry I called it a night pretty soon after I posted.
      Anyhoo, it was one of those comments that could be taken either way.
      I just read it differently is all..
      When my kids post messages to me using all the initials (probably why my first reaction was benign) it irritates me… so I post back in Scots.. it drives them nuts because they ( sadly) can’t “speed”read it, so I get to point out that’s how I feel with the initials, and they can speak Scots.
      Nobody speaks Initials….. LOL (and lol is what I used to sign on their cards, took me years to stop reading lots of love)
      Hope you are well?… Any further forward with your Sons case?
      Also..@ 12.49 Well spotted, so much for the BBC now understanding how important it is to get “these things right” .. Clowns..

    50. Ian Brotherhood says:

      @BDTT –

      Hoots mon!

      😉

    51. Dr Jim says:

      The Scotsman newspaper has decided that the Hell that England has created with Brexit is so bad that Independence for Scotland would be heller so better to stay with all of Englands mental hell that they’re forcing on Scotland and keep depending on the idiots who they’ve admitted created hell

      It’s like they think we’re Gerbils or something

    52. yesindyref2 says:

      @stu mac / @Petra
      The National was quite bland. But news at the moment is itself bland, the Herald on Sunday was the same. The most important news it seems is Johnson and suicide vests.

    53. Maria F says:

      Sarah says:
      10 September, 2018 at 11:41 am

      “the link given by Vlad [not that one] at 10.52 and 11.00 a.m. to a crowdfunder to prosecute Boris Johnson for lying about the “£350 m to EU” is worth a read. IMHO it is also worth supporting in money and/or publicity”

      To be honest Sarah, for me the lie of Johnson with regards to the 350 m is nothing compared with some of the cosmic size porkies released by the Better Together in 2014. I mean, I still cannot fathom how Ruth Davidson can still be managing the Tory branch in Scotland after her monumental porky of having to vote to remain in the UK to ensure Scotland would remain in the EU. And well, don’t get me started about Gordon’s Devo Max, Cameron’s ” the most devolved country in the world” and the three amigos vow including permanence of Holyrood and its independence in devolved matters from Westminster.

      If somebody asks for Johnson’s prosecution on the basis of that lie, what should we ask for those responsible of all the lies and misinformation peddled during indyref 2014?

      Now, if I am not mistaken, the Leave campaign was accused of breaking electoral law, not only for surpassing the limits of expenditure but also for working in cahoots with other, allegedly independent, small groups.

      Now, why the same in the case of indyref was not investigated, I wonder? I mean, it cannot possibly be just a coincidence that on the 2nd September 2014, just 16 days before indyref, the better together campaign sends a tweet at 9:21 pm claiming: “What is process for removing our EU citizenship? Voting yes”.
      On the exact same day and on live TV Ruth Davidson, who launched “Conservative Friends of the Union” as the party campaign group, mentions somewhere between 20:00 and 22:00: “I think it is disingenuous of Patrick to say that No means out and Yes means in, when actually the opposite is true. No means we stay in, we are members of the European Union” And then just to close the loop and make it even more interesting, the website of Vote no Borders, allegedly independent from the BTogether and “Conservative Friends of the Union”, still to this day displays that very same tweet sent by BTogether at 9:21 on the 2nd September 2014 with the BTogether logo on it.

      Sorry, but this looks like a coincidence and a half too many for me to believe it was random.

    54. Effijy says:

      HYUFD

      Hi You Utter FuD,

      Yes good old England’s Empire brought
      Democracy and ecinonomic order to their
      Colonies.

      I can’t remember reading about the Aboriginies out voting
      The vicious money grabbing moraiders from
      Westminster? Nor do I recall the natives in the colonies getting
      The Lions share of profits as their resources were stolen from
      Them?

      Your grammar says a lot about you!
      You should get an “Israel is Jews” tattoo on your forehead
      (If there is enough room?)

    55. frogesque says:

      Just has a cold call from market research company IRS with lots of questions about polital opinion re Brexit.

      Didn’t say who they were researching for or how data would be used. Some q’s sounded a bit wooly liberal though.

      Gave SNP a good plug and also suggested If the European sounding lady was concerned about her own post Brexit status then she might consider moving to Scotland.

      Anyone any ideas who is ferreting about behind the wooden paneling?

    56. Sarah says:

      @ Maria F 2.43

      I entirely agree with every word you’ve written, Maria. They were outrageously, mind-blowingly huge lies in 2014. I’m still ranting and raving about them!!

      BUT the case brought to our attention by Vlad [nto] is the only one currently on course for being heard. They’ve spent two years already working on it so it’s not a quick undertaking.

      So I still think it is worth supporting however we can. If they make political lies illegal [remember Alastair Carmichael case – political lies aren’t illegal at the moment] in practice through this case being successful, well it is a step in the right direction.

    57. Fred says:

      Very impressed with the Sunday National not having bought a Sunday since the apostacy of the Sunday Herald. Good to see a contribution from Alan Hinnrichs the Dundee letter-writer who never fails to impress!

    58. Petra says:

      @ Maria F at 2:43pm …… “Looks like a coincidence and a half too many …”

      Forget about Better Together. They, the Establishment and Media, should have been named All in it Together. And that still stands today. God knows what goes on behind the scenes. Who the key coordinator is.

    59. yesindyref2 says:

      This may be genius or madness, but there IS something the YES movement, or some in it, could do, when talking to unionists, and it’s this. Ask them this simple question:

      If Theresa May is deposed as leader of the Conservative Party and PM of the UK, who do you think should take over?

      Note the slighly subversive language “deposed”, and very subtle “take over”.

      And perhaps in this quite time, The National could run with it, with descriptions of the pretenders and their “worthy” attributes, like suicide vest Johnson, back-stabbing Gove, Atlantic Bridge Fox, Gung-Ho Williamson and of course everybody’s favourite, the Warden of Barchester Towers Rees-Mogg, a genuine character out of 19th century Trollope come to life.

    60. Robert J. Sutherland says:

      Dr Jim @ 14:29,

      That is a line that BT2 (or whatever it will be called) will surely peddle, since they have a litany of broken promises to try to overcome. Turn Fear+Uncertainty+Doubt up to 111 compared to last time.

      “The aftermath of Brexit is already chaotic enough, so why increase the chaos by adding independence to the mix?”.

      Cynical, but there are people who will fall for this, if left to themselves. Once again it’s all about **framing**. We have to establish in people’s minds the correct frame, namely that indy is a precious escape opportunity from Brexshit [sic], not an amplification of it.

      Provided we can still meaningfully offer the possibility of an escape, that is.

      Jeez, I’m already suffering badly from Brexit fatigue, and I know full well what it means. Every new Leaver idiocy – and they are all idiocies – that surfaces in the media makes me roll my eyes, wince and inwardly groan. If we just passively allow ourselves to be Brexshitted, in the aftermath there will be an enormous backlash from everyone saying “shut up now, FFS, it’s done, live with it”. There’s only so much aggravation anyone can stand.

      So we need the right framing, but also the right timing too.

    61. Robert Peffers says:

      @Liz g says: 10 September, 2018 at 1:57 pm:

      ” … I realised you were probably off to bed.”

      ” … When my kids post messages to me using all the initials (probably why my first reaction was benign) it irritates me… “

      In my case my middle lad retire this year so he is in the same boat as we are. The son I adopted turned out a real bad lot and I never hear from him now.

      In any case even the grand children are a wee bit pre-text-speak and all, although not fully fluent Scots speakers, can understand it and are interested enough to ask what in means and where the words came from.

      ” … Hope you are well?… Any further forward with your Sons case?” I’m, I suppose, “as well as can be expected”, but still awaiting the results of the last set of tests. As to my son’s case – last week they informed us that what I told them about him being born with a heart condition was correct and he died from a heart attack and no suspicious circumstances.

      The thing about spotting the things others miss is that the older generation were taught to read by, “sounding out”, the letters of each word – the modern method is to speed read and recognise whole words. Trouble with that is they begin to wrongly, “recognise”, the wrong meanings when bombarded with the wrong contexts deliberately used to brainwash them.

      Like believing the shorthand version that Westminster, and the BBC, use while meaning something else.

      Like Westminster political figures speaking of, “The UK”, instead of, “The United Kingdom”, then, in the same sentence, referring to, “The Country”. The speed reader subliminally begins to associate the United Kingdom with, “the country”, instead of as being two kingdoms partners in a union.

      Thing is that I probably read things at least as quickly as they do but I do not make the same subliminal connections.

      When at school, (pre-TV Days), I read my way through my own seven public library books, two school library books and whatever paperbacks I could lay my hands on. Not to mention I usually also read each of my parents two each public library books. (We got a twice weekly visit from the mobile library).

      I had schoolfriends who could re-read a novel but I never really could as I knew the text too well. There were exceptions in that novels like “Alice in Wonderland”, for example had a different appeal when read as a child as when re-read as an adult.

      Anyhow, I may be wrong but I think when these things are brought to people’s notice they often initially think, and sometime say, “silly old bugger”, but it sticks in their mind and they do start to notice the propaganda and its deliberate use by such as Westminster, the Broadcasters and the SMSM in particular.

    62. Petra says:

      @ yesindyref2 at 3:20pm … “The National could run with it ….”

      Only one problem there, yesindyref2. The Yoons or British Nationalists don’t buy the National. In fact they seemingly avoid it like the plague.

      …………..

      I can’t find the Mike Russell video I hear people talking about, doh. Could someone point me in the right direction.

    63. yesindyref2 says:

      An alternative to “deposed” is the much stronger “toppled”. Use with care!

    64. Winifred Mccartney says:

      Sorry post at 1.45 BBC Scotland NOT allowing saltires….. the

    65. Nana says:

      @Petra

      Newsnet is pleased to present this fascinating video of a packed meeting in Selkirk last week. Michael Russell MSP, is the Cabinet Secretary for Government Business and Constitutional Relations. Mr Russell took the audience though a lucid explanation of the thorny questions Scotland is facing as the UK government fails to make progress in negotiations with the EU and repeatedly ignores the wishes of the Scottish Government and the Scottish Parliament.

      https://newsnet.scot/news-analysis/scotland-and-brexit/

    66. yesindyref2 says:

      @Petra
      They could make it front page 🙂 That would stand out on newsstands where it wasn’t tucked under the DM.

    67. sandy Henderson says:

      OT: Sunday National.

      Newspapers ought to be easy to read, not convoluted with words that are more akin to the more extreme cryptic crosswords.

      With that in mind, would posters agree that, with so much political bias in both press & TV, a section of the Sunday National be set aside for the weekly “real truth” in simple every-day wording.

      A headline with the word TRUTH will always attract attention.

      What say you all?

    68. PictAtRandom says:

      Seem to still be awaiting the publication of the Scottish boundary changes — but there were one or two rum proposals if I recall correctly. Dundee East was going to include the Angus Glens and Cowdenbeath would have the joy of being lumped in with Bridge of Earn and Auchterarder.

      Nothing really leapt out at me from the Sunday National — but I thought the format was better than the SH. Felt more substantial with a section of broadsheet. No doubt the words will come.

    69. Vronsky says:

      Tae seek het water frae cold ice,
      Surely it is a great folly;
      I hae asked grace o a graceless face,
      But there is nane for my men and me.

      – Johnnie Armstrong, Border ballad.

    70. Ottomanboi says:

      @HYUFD
      Whatever the British did during the colonial period was done out of self-interest. The idea that they brought civilized values, rule of law etc is Victorian imperialist romanticism. Countries were usually stripped of their wealth and natural resources.
      The Indian subcontinent, one of the world’s richest and most developed areas when the British East India Company arrived, the reason it, the French, Dutch and Portuguese went there, was when the British left reduced to ‘third world’ status. Right to the end the crippling Salt Tax was draining resources from India.
      The religious partition of the subcontinent was a consequence of the divide and rule clientism which imperialist systems deploy to keep the conquered in check.
      The extensive railway networks in India, Africa and elsewhere were conceived as troop carriers.
      The Neil Ferguson narrative on British imperial history has few takers in the ‘old colonies’. Read Inglorious Empire by Shash Tharoor for the alternative perspective.
      Ironic, given the rise of independence politics, that some Scots ie Gove, Fox, Davidson can be such avid propagandists for the old British order of things which really did few favours for Scotland, its people and culture.

    71. Pete says:

      Lots on here about the evil British Empire.
      Actually, it wasn’t really all bad.
      Some of our ex colonies have now become truly basket cases.
      Take Zimbabwe and Jamaica as 2 examples.
      Spent a lot of time in Jamaica and never seen
      such a useless, idle and feckless population and such poor infrastructure in an island with such great potential.
      Funnily enough, we never hear too much about the Romans or the Vikings and what they did here.
      Very ruthless bunch but they left great roads!

    72. Nana says:

      A few links for a quiet afternoon

      Indycar Gordon Ross 10 09 18 Banning the flag
      http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cbuprs067NM

      Through a Scottish Prism By Barrheadboy This weeks guest is MacAlba | Truly Scottish
      https://viloud.tv/channel/a02b9e30dc3057bb16ee4cd5d541859d/video/210855d5fb3d0e714c42a33d6e64e92d

      Next step towards a Tory dictatorship
      http://archive.is/6SG9M

    73. Vronsky says:

      Tae seek het water frae cold ice,
      Surely it is a great folly;
      For I hae asked grace o a graceless face,
      But there is nane for my men and me.

      – Johnnie Armstrong (Borer Ballad)

    74. vlad (not that one) says:

      @ Maria F 2.43
      Right enough, in 2014 we were fed despicable lies, however there is little anyone can do about it.

      Do not forget that the BoJo prosecution campaign already spent £200,000. It is now looking to crowdfund £500.000 more in the next 38 days, and expects final costs in the region of two million! (Daylight robbery, but what else cn be done?)

    75. Dan Huil says:

      Millions of innocent people suffered and died under the british empire. Scotland’s sad association with that empire can be partly ameliorated by ending the union with England. Tear down the butcher’s apron! It’s the least we can do.

      BTW: The national now prints the horse racing cards! Page 32 today.

    76. george wood says:

      PictAtRandom says:
      10 September, 2018 at 4:05 pm

      “Seem to still be awaiting the publication of the Scottish boundary changes”

      There out now, I was reading them earlier this afternoon.

    77. Liz g says:

      Robert Peffers @ 3.36
      Aw Robert …well an answer over yer boy was a long time coming…But I hope you find a crumb of comfort in the getting of it..
      Look after yersel Robert…we’re nearly there..

    78. Robert Peffers says:

      @yesindyref2 says: 10 September, 2018 at 3:20 pm:

      ” … This may be genius or madness, but there IS something the YES movement, or some in it, could do, when talking to unionists, and it’s this. Ask them this simple question:
      If Theresa May is deposed as leader of the Conservative Party and PM of the UK, who do you think should take over?”
      Note the slighly subversive language “deposed”, and very subtle “take over”.”

      Sometimes I despair. Not at The Westminster Establishment, not at the unionist parties nor even the BBC and other parts of the unionist funded and owned media, or even the Scottish MSM, for we expect such lies from them, but despair at the, would be, supporters of Scottish Independence.

      Here we see some protesting at what they think are the biggest lies promulgated by the Westminster Establishment and disseminated by their owned, funded and influenced media.

      Yet the biggest lie of them all is hardly perceived by these indy supporters as even being a lie.

      I refer to this document:-

      https://assets.publishing.service.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attachment_data/file/79408/Annex_A.pdf

      It was commissioned by Westminster with taxpayers money and compiled and written by:-

      Professor James Crawford SC
      Professor Alan Boyle

      It is titled:-

      Scotland – International Law Aspects.

      A tiny extract from it was then taken, somewhat out of context, and used in the campaign of Indyref1.

      The Secretary of State for against Scotland used that out of context section and interpreted it thus:-

      “The Treaty of Union ‘EXTINGUISHED’, The Kingdom of Scotland and renamed the Kingdom of England as the United Kingdom.”

      This so obvious lie went hardly mentioned by the independence movement – even although the MSM, both broadcasters and publishers, all gleefully reported it as stone cold truth.

      Hardly a hair on the indy movement’s head was turned by this most gigantic of all Westminster lies.

      Here is David Mundell admitting on national TV that the government he served as a minister of state said Scotland did not exist:-

      http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_OIRUr4R7GQ

      And here he is in the Westminster debating Chamber claiming Scotland is not a partner kingdom in the United Kingdom.

      The United Kingdom was formed by the Treaty of Union and there are only two signatories on that document and they were the only two kingdoms in the British Isles in 1707. What is more that treaty has only two royal seals attached to it. One is the Great Seal Of Scotland and the other the Great Seal of the Kingdom of England.

      These facts should have seen every one of the people of Scotland figuratively rummaging through the thatch looking for the family claymore – or, if they are immigrant Scots, looking to borrow a claymore from their nearest native Scots neighbour.

      Now go read that document and see the truth of what Westminster chose to claim our Scotland is a bit of England and belongs to the English.

    79. yesindyref2 says:

      @Peffers
      Raining where I am, seems to be lashing down where you are.

      I was countering Crawford & Boyle in the Herald at 4 a.m. on the day it was news all over the place, while you were still dreaming happy dreams in your pit.

    80. Chick McGregor says:

      Sandy,

      ‘A headline with the word TRUTH will always attract attention.’

      I wish they’d change their strap line to something else.

      Even ‘The Newspaper that is not anti-Scottish Independence’ would be better although that would get up the noses of their rivals.

      ‘The Newspaper that is relaxed about Scottish Independence.’ might be be better.

      Better still, nothing at all.

      Best of all something like ‘The Truth, ALL the Truth and nothing but The Truth about Scotland’.

    81. Robert J. Sutherland says:

      Well, our latest BritNat Leaver troll certainly has led some a merry dance. His Empire dogwhistle had all the usual suspects salivating.

      When are you folk going to realise that the vast majority of the public don’t give a damn whether the British Empire was the most benevolent governance to soft-carpet the globe or the evillest of evil empires the world has ever seen? Most people probably err slightly on the benevolent side of the half-way mark, if they have any thought on the matter at all.

      But it’s IRRELEVANT to indy. Period.

      It has no traction. Yet is also potentially damaging, because it befuddles the issue with completely unnecessary distractions. And becomes outright toxic if it convinces current waverers for indy that the independence movement is populated by a motley crew of untrustworthy grumps who are on the permanent lookout for excuses to grind their well-honed little axes and preach to their own little choirs.

      Same goes all other peripheral issues, and in the case of the conspiracy-theory ones, with knobs on.

      It’s not as if we are lacking real issues of genuine concern to everyone, so why allow ourselves to be so easily led astray by obvous provocateurs?

      When it gets like this, I turn instead to the likes of Paul Kavanagh, who never fails to get to the heart of the matter, and often does so with such effective wit.

      Here we are, weeks away from the deadline when the UK needs to have a serious and credible proposal on Brexit to present to the EU in order not to crash out with no deal in March, and both the Conservatives and Labour are far more interested in settling political scores within their own parties than they are in avoiding the looming cliff edge.

      What’s offensive is that the people who in 2014 promised Scotland that we’d be safe and secure within the UK and the EU, that we’d punch above our weight as world leaders, that we’d be valued partners in a family of nation, leading from within, are now assuring us that there will be enough food, that medicines will be stockpiled.

      https://weegingerdug.wordpress.com/2018/09/09/more-offensive-than-a-boris-johnson-opinion-piece/

      Thank your favourite deity that there’s at least someone who has their eye on the ball. And where it’s supposed to be heading.

    82. yesindyref2 says:

      @RJS
      Indeed. The British Empire had its good bits and its bad bits, and so did all of them. And I’d say most people know that and really don’t care – it’s history!

    83. Jim Morris says:

      Why Brexit, why March 29th? Is it anything to do with the EU Finance Bill coming into force on April 1st, which includes measures against tax avoidance in off-shore accounts?

    84. PictAtRandom says:


      “Robert J. Sutherland says:
      10 September, 2018 at 5:13 pm

      Well, our latest BritNat Leaver troll certainly has led some a merry dance. His Empire dogwhistle had all the usual suspects salivating.

      When are you folk going to realise that the vast majority of the public don’t give a damn whether the British Empire was the most benevolent governance to soft-carpet the globe or the evillest of evil empires the world has ever seen? Most people probably err slightly on the benevolent side of the half-way mark, if they have any thought on the matter at all.

      But it’s IRRELEVANT to indy. Period.”

      Well, no it’s not. Why should nationalism take the blame for everything while imperialism gets a free pass?

      (And have you noticed how the usual metropolitan suspects are continuing to portray groups like the Sweden Democrats as nationalists? Not accidental.)

      Now, be a good lad — learn to say “BritStat” instead of “BritNat” — and stop grinding those small directives. 🙂

    85. Lenny Hartley says:

      Jim Morriis, according to Manx Radio a couple of months ago the UK are going to implement the EU directive on agressive Tax Avoidance. We shall see.

    86. Cactus says:

      Aye Love the two page articles on WOS, the occasional 3-page post is most pleasing too, twill be four or five pages of Winger comment posts, upon independence, like, Monday burp.

      99 WOS posts to go…

      Look up.

    87. Eppy says:

      I started to see postings from someone calling themselves HYUFD. Not being terribly with-it with internet acronyms I googled it to see if it stood for something that I should know.

      I found links to a labour supporting bloke in his mid thirties who lives in south east England and is looking for a relationship, never having had a relationship that had lasted more than a year.

      I’m sure that it can’t possibly be the same character, but if in the remote chance that it is, this isn’t actually a dating site and you don’t seem to be making too many friends here either.

    88. Richard Duncan says:

      Trust the BBBC

      BBC Scotland – like Labour Fake news and Fake people.

      The leopard never changes its spots. It is a propaganda Company. Even abroad the “Good BBC Name” is tarnished with it lies and fake news. BBC Youtube content is full of criticism ,when its not disabled comments especially from abroad where people actually remember what real news was about .

      Weve been conned for decades.

      The Internet has a place in all our lives now. Ignorance is shameful. The truth is out there 🙂

      No wonder the news people hate it.

      Thanks for this Kenny McBride . Cant believe they listened for 2 hours. Lets see what happens next lol

    89. Dr Jim says:

      The Tories have done it again Brexit? what Brexit?
      It’s all about the Tories again and Englands favourite pastime gossiping, and what have the Tories got everybody gossiping about? well who’s going to stab who in back to be the top dog of all they survey and F…k the population of the entire British isles coz they don’t care as long as they win, so gossip away England about what kind of leaders and politicians you’ve elected

      When this debacle is all over If one English celebrity or anybody from England comes to Scotland and informs us of what we’ve to do with our lives and the constitution of OUR nation I’ll swing for them seven ways from Sunday and rip their damn heads off

      Don’t dare turn up in my country in my towns in my squares on my television and tell me anything because I will not have it and I hope every person living working and paying tax in my country regardless of political persuation will join me in tearing these arseholes a complete new one if they dare show their moronic mutts here again

      I’m a tad pissed right off by the constant drone of English gossip TV news which is all about themselves, not us Scots oh no or the Irish, heaven forfend, or the Welsh, who are they?

      There’s a reason every other country in the world kicked these Bastirts out and Scotland’s got to be next and I can kick like F..k!

      Sorry to our readers for the sweary bits, but I’m mad as hell

    90. yesindyref2 says:

      It’s life. Jim, but not as we want it.

    91. sandy says:

      History cannot be changed. (Tho’ many strive to alter it.)
      Future is there formed.

    92. jfngw says:

      The UK government are ready to reduce the number of elected MP’s, claiming it is to save money and be more democratic. At the same time they have been increasing the number of unelected Lords to rule over us, money seems no object and what is democratic about party place people.

      Which is true? Either they want to save money or they don’t. From here it looks like they are just loading the system to achieve perpetual Tory governments.

      My ambition is to see these 53 MP’s from Scotland reduced to 0, I’m all for them saving money.

    93. Referendum1707 says:

      What’s happened to the link up at top right of page to WoS Twitter? Was there earlier about 2 hours ago when I clicked on it so it seems to have gone since.

    94. Cactus says:

      58% and going strong:
      https://www.indiegogo.com/projects/autumn-2018#/

      4 days remaining to go if you are able to put something into it Peoples of Scotland and internationally beyond, for the guys n gals that are doin’ it, did you like the time-delay videos of our recent AUOB marches, like Edinburgh next? 🙂

      Thistle probably be one of the ‘last remaining’ Autumn 2018 crowdfunds, afore we buckle down afore brrr UK exit UK, an yer on fine form ra nicht Dr J.

      Did you know…?:
      http://www.independencelive.net/

      VI / X / MMXVIII.

    95. yesindyref2 says:

      Now they’re in REAL trouble. Back-stabbing Gove is “I’m very much Team Theresa”.

      That’s it, she’s history – just like the British Empire.

    96. Bill McLean says:

      Been away for 3 week and trying to catch up – what has happened in the Rev v Dugdale case?

    97. Liz g says:

      Dr Jim @ 6.06
      Exactly what I was thinking Dr Jim,England’s Tories, it’s always all about who is going to win England’s Tories top job… well front of house anyway..
      I’m sick of it too… Why should we care?
      I don’t care what deal they get either now… I just want one so that we get our date!

    98. Liz g says:

      Dr Jim @ 6.06
      Exactly what I was thinking Dr Jim,England’s Tories, it’s always all about who is going to win England’s Tories top job… well front of house anyway..
      I’m sick of it too… Why should we care?
      I don’t care what deal they get either now… I just want one announced so that we get our date!

    99. Referendum1707 says:

      Just noticed the other smaller Twitter link up there which still works but the other bigger one under articles and categories has still disappeared. Now just says My Tweets text no link.

      Comments not appearing either. Gremlins in the works?

    100. Thepnr says:

      Bringing a private prosecution against Johnson might be a worthy goal but at a cost of £2,000,000 I see little value in that when such a sum of money can be out to much better use in the cause of Independence.

      I thought I might as well have a look at the Brexit Justice website and as mentioned already they have raised a total of around £200,000 already from three previous crowdfunding appeals.

      http://www.brexitjustice.com/

      The first crowd funder to close did spectacularly well in the aftermath of the vote to leave the EU in 2016 raising £145K.

      “On 29th Jul 2016 we successfully raised £145,270 of £100,000 target with 4913 supporters in 28 days”

      https://www.crowdfunder.co.uk/brexitjustice

      The second 3 months later had a much more modest target and was to pay the salary of the man behind the campaign and this beat the target again raising £34K.

      “On 6th Oct 2016 we successfully raised £33,895 of £32,400 target with 1214 supporters in 14 days”

      https://www.crowdfunder.co.uk/salaryformarcus

      There are downloadable pdf’s on the main website (first link) showing the spending associated with the first two fundraisers covering up to Dec 2016 when there was a total of £77K remaining split between the Lawyers account and the Brexit Justice campaign account.

      There was then a third crowd funder 4 months ago, once again to raise a salary for the founder as he was running short of money. Once more it broke the target raising £25K.

      “On 26th Apr 2018 we successfully raised £25,275 of £25,000 target with 892 supporters in 9 days”

      https://www.crowdfunder.co.uk/brexit-justice-further-funding

      On the crowdfunding page link above he gives a summary of the progress so far, some of it does not appear very promising as the original QC from back in 2016 seems to left.

      D) David Perry QC is concerned that a case may not be successful because he does not believe that the ‘acting as such’ requirement has been met, I disagree.

      E) I have instructed a new QC, who will be taking over the leadership of the case. He is carrying out a full review of our case. It is his preliminary opinion that we have an argument for a private prosecution. We are still in discussion and I urge all of us to manage our expectations as we’ve been let down before, but it’s looking good at the moment.

      The new QC is presumably the one named on the current fundraiser, Mr Lewis Power QC whose current “legal advice as of May 11th 2018 is that there are reasonable prospects for convicting Mr Boris Johnson MP for the offence of misconduct in public office.”

      I have no idea whether the original funds remaining from Dec 2016 have all been spent on the services of the original QC or not as no further update on spending since Dec 2016 seems to be available on the Brexit Justice website. There is this though:

      “Public Finance Report 4&5: Soon to be published”

      I might also add that Brexit Justice is a UK Ltd. company as stated on the website.

      Brexit Justice Ltd. 130 Old Street, London, England, EC1V 9BD
      Company number 10520032

      I think I’ll give this one a miss, as I said earlier in my opinion, there are better things to do with our hard earned in supporting causes directly related on Scotland gaining her Independence.

    101. Cactus says:

      Ah was undecided there… (a bit like a previous no voter there there.)

      “Thistle probably be one of the ‘last remaining’ Autumn 2018 crowdfunds, afore we buckle down afore brrr UK exit UK, an yer on fine form ra nicht Dr J.”

      Aye was considering sayin’… “buckle up” like.

      Take yer pick.

      Fear or Confidence… former or latter…

      Aye it’s in yer watter.

    102. Abulhaq says:

      History is relevant, acts of history got Scotland into the current situation. The devices used to hold the British Empire were initially tried and perfected in Ireland and more subtlety in Scotland.
      We should study history in order not to repeat mistakes and importantly to prevent being taken for suckers again.The old ‘rulers’ want you to dismiss and forget history. It suits them. Amnesia absolves them of ancient sins.

    103. Thepnr says:

      @Bill McLean

      You can do all your catching up on the Kezia Dugdale case here:

      https://wingsoverscotland.com/one-nil-to-justice/

    104. gus1940 says:

      Excellent article By Peter Hitchens in yesterday’s Mail On Sunday – Well worth reading.

      It’s about UK’s Foreign Policy in the lead up to WW2 and is very provocative but probably very true.

      On the subject of Hess’s flight to Scotland we have always been told that it was rogue effort without any input form Hitler.

      I am amazed that with all the secrecy around Hess the timing of his flight is never mentioned.

      It was,of course, just weeks before Hitler invaded Russia and the question never asked is – Was it another attempt by Hitler to negotiate a separate peace with The UK leaving him with a free hand for Barbarossa?

    105. CameronB Brodie says:

      Re. the BBC’s barely hidden eagerness to support far-right populism. The trouble is rooted in the corporation’s royal charter, which stands in direct opposition to political pluralism, along with the inherent cultural chauvinism/racism of a former colonial power. Contemporary British nationalism, as sold to us by the BBC, is simply a vehicle for the articulation of Anglican friendly, right-wing, cultural exceptionalism (see Brexit, for example). There is simply no alternative, frankly.

      The ethical implications of populism in political practice

      In political discourse in recent times we hear too many times the word – populist or populism. Does an average citizen who is not from the profession of political or philosophical sciences properly consider the meaning of this terms and what are the ethical implications of manipulating with it?

      Let’s start from the beginning.

      Populist is usually related to the concept of a demagogue and it has roots from the Greek term dimagogós which has the meaning of a charismatic leader. This phenomenon dates back to Ancient Athens democracy which is at the same time a weakness of democracy. Demagogue does not address to the elites but to the ordinary people and thanks to them and in their name he carries out his decisions into practice. Often, decisions of such type of leaders are not in the interest of large masses, but their popularity and charm convince people otherwise. Demagogues support their own decisions often with the story about the national crisis and interests, and often used the force.

      In political theory known dangerous demagogues were: Cleon, Alcibiades, Gaius Flaminius Nepos, Hitler and McCarthy.

      But, we must be honest – there is no ideology that is not populist. In that sense what is populism actually, and why does it have a negative context in political practice?

      http://publicreason.net/2017/01/05/the-ethical-implications-of-populism-in-political-practice/

      Right-wing populism and the dynamics of style: a discourse-analytic perspective on mediated political performances

      Abstract

      This article offers new ways of conceptualising style in right wing populist communicative performances, by foregrounding a structured and conceptually informed use of “style” that moves beyond the descriptive sense routinely employed in political communication. Specifically, it explores how a discourse-analytic approach to mediated populist discourse can inform and advance the current understanding of populist ‘style’ by analysing some contextually produced linguistic and discursive choices in populist rhetorical repertoires—i.e., the communicative strategies that are deployed in mediated contexts for right-wing populist political communication. Taking three illustrative examples of right wing populist party performances on TV news and current affairs broadcasts in Greece (GD), France (FN) and the UK (UKIP), the speakers’ use of a range of rhetorical devices is examined using models from socio-linguistics and discourse analysis: aspects of register shifts by GD in blame attribution speeches, interactional ‘bad manners’ in a French political debate, and Nigel Farage speaking ‘candidly’ in three different contexts of news reporting from the UK.

      In taking such a qualitative approach, it is argued that populist style cannot be defined in terms of one single feature, or set of features, common to all right wing populists and transferrable from one socio-cultural context to another, but more usefully as a set of motivated choices among alternative semiotic resources (linguistic/discursive, interactional and visual), which have social and cultural resonance. This focus on micro-level features of mediated interaction thus offers a more fine-grained understanding of style than is currently the case, as it shows how right-wing populist politicians’ performative styles are situated within specific (here European) socio-cultural and political communicative contexts; in this study, this is to say, the various television broadcasts in which they occur.

      Farage speaking candidly

      Farage on Brexit: Frankness on the front stage of the political establishment

      Farage does not restrict his frankness to informal back stage settings. His blunt and unpolished talk in public debates and formal political institutions has received much attention in the media, for example, his speeches in the EU parliament during the Brexit negotiations. These clearly show how the semiotic potential of a populist style (‘the ways of being’) is dependent on the particular context in which discursive resources are mobilised. In the extract below, we join the speech when Farage has talked (ironically) about the unreasonable demands that the EU is putting on the UK for Brexit.

      https://www.nature.com/articles/s41599-018-0132-6#Sec10

      Predicting the Rise of EU Right-Wing Populism in Response to Unbalanced Immigration

      Abstract

      Among the central tenets of globalization is the free migration of labor. Although much has been written about the benefits of globalization, little is known about its limitations and how antiglobalist sentiment can be strongly affected by high levels of immigration. Analyzing poll data from a group of EU countries affected by the recent migrant crisis, we find that over the last three years the percentage of right-wing (RW) populist voters in a given country depends on the prevalence of immigrants in this country’s population and the total immigration inflow into the entire EU. The latter is likely due to the perception that the EU functions as a supranational state in which a lack of inner borders means that “someone else’s problem” can easily become “my problem.” We find that the increase in the percentage of RW voters substantially surpasses the percentage of immigration inflow, implying that if this process continues, ongoing democratic processes will cause RW populism to prevail and globalization to rapidly decrease. We locate tipping points between the fraction of immigrants and the rise of RW populism, and we model our empirical findings using a complex network framework in which the success of globalization rests on a balance between immigration and immigrant integration.

      https://www.hindawi.com/journals/complexity/2017/1580526/

      P.S. Race is still the basic instrument of social organisation and management, especially if you let the racists run the show (see the Prime Minister, for example). Identify as British and support the yoonion? Then you may not be as ethical and principled as you imagine.

    106. Cactus says:

      It remains in the hands of the most confident Mr Hicks:
      http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KgzQuE1pR1w

      Let us find a point…

      BUCKLE IN!

    107. Petra says:

      Thanks for that, Nana (3:53pm). I’ll take a look later.

      …………………

      @ Sandy at 4:03pm …. “A headline with the word TRUTH …”

      Sandy the staff at the National are open to decent suggestions. Pop in and see them, if you’re in the area, phone or email them.

      ………………..

      @ Robert P at 3:36pm …..

      Robert I’m pleased to hear that there’s been some resolution for you in relation to your son. Take care of yourself now X

      ……………….

      STV news: Keith Brown, SNP Depute, saying that the Brexit fiasco “may” delay Nicola Sturgeon’s announcements of Indyref2 in October. No announcement will be made until the Brexit situation is clarified for Scots. Or words to that effect.

    108. fillofficer says:

      je suis Dr Jim

      you can read my mind

    109. Confused says:

      (boring tory infighting on the telly)

      why dont we lock all the tories together in a warehouse, then get a big bucket of knives and chibs seized in some police amnesty … chuck it in … then lock the doors.

      – there can be only one

      this is the highlander / battle royale solution to tory leadership

      all these fuckers think theyre living out “game of thrones”-for-real anyway – these waitrose-machiavellis

      I would pay to watch that livestream.

      In other news, the SNP are now KILLING KITTENS

      – can I get THE JOB now DONALDA?
      – did I do good?

    110. yesindyref2 says:

      @Petra
      Yes, heard it too. Problem is we don’t even know at thsi stage if there’s going to be a Brexit, will it be in March or a 6 month extension, will it be a hard one or a soft one, or even if there’ll be any UK Government or UK left by the time the Tories have stopped throwing their prams out with the toy.

    111. Brian Doonthetoon says:

      Hi Robert Peffers at 5:01 pm.

      You quoted,
      “@yesindyref2 says: 10 September, 2018 at 3:20 pm:

      ” … This may be genius or madness, but there IS something the YES movement, or some in it, could do, when talking to unionists, and it’s this. Ask them this simple question:
      If Theresa May is deposed as leader of the Conservative Party and PM of the UK, who do you think should take over?”
      Note the slighly subversive language “deposed”, and very subtle “take over”.””

      In reply to that quote, you typed,

      “Sometimes I despair. Not at The Westminster Establishment, not at the unionist parties nor even the BBC and other parts of the unionist funded and owned media, or even the Scottish MSM, for we expect such lies from them, but despair at the, would be, supporters of Scottish Independence.”

      I’ve had a great regard for the info you have posted about constitutional history and so on over the past year or four but I also pick up where you take a ‘downer’ on a commenter, even although that commenter has a track record of fighting Scotland’s corner in the struggle towards Scottish independence. You imply that he is one of the “would be, supporters of Scottish Independence.”

      In your post that I cite, you quoted a commenter but then did not address that which you had quoted but went off on a tangent, not addressing the point that the commenter had made.

      Why quote him if you weren’t going to address his observation? We all have opinions, that may not concur with the opinions of others but to tar someone as a “would be supporter of independence” is a tad below the belt.

    112. CameronB Brodie says:

      Re. English Tories and Brexit. As with Marxists, Tories don’t tend to differentiate between space and place. This is more than unfortunate, as social marginalisation is a key determinant of poor health. As such, Brexit needs to be viewed as “imposed” public policy which can be expected to harm Scotland’s public health. Britain now resembles an English despotism.

      P.S. Tories don’t do bio-ethics, preferring to support inherited privilege, instead.

      Human Ecology, Bio-ethics and Human Rights in the Anthropocene: How and Why Place-Based Agency matters

      Introduction

      Rapid advances in Western Science, bio-medicine and related technology over the past fifty years or so, mean that humanity is increasingly confronted with ethical decisions which involve evaluations of the quality, value and meaning of human life. Cognizant of the global scale and magnitude of these rapidly evolving complexities, UN-ESCO championed and oversaw the adoption of the Universal declaration on Bioethics and Human Rights. Arguably, the most far reaching international agreement in the field of bioethics to date, the declaration takes into account people’s social, legal, cultural and ecological dimensions whilst recognizing the unique interactions between
      medical and technical innovations, and particular environments.

      https://riviste.upra.org/index.php/bioethica/article/download/1016/786

      A Framework for Making Ethical Decisions
      https://www.brown.edu/academics/science-and-technology-studies/framework-making-ethical-decisions

      A Field Guide to Teaching Agency and Ethics: The West Wing and American Foreign Policy
      http://journaldialogue.org/issues/a-field-guide-to-teaching-agency-and-ethics-the-west-wing-and-american-foreign-policy/

    113. Cactus says:

      Whom is furra wee a dram ra nite Wingers… what say you William Wallace!

      To Monday!

      Cheers!

    114. Dave McEwan Hill says:

      HYUFD at 12.48

      What is now called Israel is the home of the Palestinians – semitic, of course who lived on it for many centuries amicably sharing it with semitic Christians and semitic Jews. Jews and Christians lived peacefully with Moslems in small numbers all across the Middle East for over 1500 years.

      Then the UK/US axis of middle eastern evil decided to give a big part of Palestinian land to Jews from all around the world. Over two thirds of the Jews in Israel have no semitic DNA being descended from Eastern Europeans who converted to Judaism in the eighth century. They have since illegally occupied other parts of the Palestinians lands.

      We do indeed support small nations, Palestine being one of them The United Nations sadly is a sham.

      Will you please stop taking shite

    115. HYUFD says:

      Effijy So you are saying all those of non Aboriginal origin should be kicked out of Australia

    116. HYUFD says:

      Ottomanboi Tell that to the Indian widows the British stopped being thrown on the funeral pyres. As you say as well as democracy and Common Law the British also brought the railways to India, still in use today, not to mention bridges and viaducts etc. Much of the growth of modern China has been.hpes by following the model of the Hong Kong the British left in 1999

    117. HYUFD says:

      Dave McEwan Hill Israel has been the historic home of the Jews back thousands of years to King David, after millions of Jews were murdered in the Holocaust the Jewish people needed to have a land again to finally be safe and call their own and Israel was it. Plenty of Paelstinians in Jordan too

    118. Legerwood says:

      Mention has been made above of Boyd and Cameron’s argument that Scotland was extinguished by the Treaty of Union and the two ratifying Acts of the respective Parliaments.

      Here is a rebuttal of that idea: ‘The Union and the Law’revisited.

      http://www.journalonline.co.uk/Preview/1014185.aspx#.W5bAMJDTW9d

    119. yesindyref2 says:

      @BDTT
      Thanks for that. He’d posted previously about being AuldBob which rang a bell, but it wasn’t until someone mentioned soc.culture.scottish (Craig Coburn) that I kind of remembered a poster there who may have been him, a grumpy old ba*tard, and that was years ago, so I guess he’s still just a grumpy old ba*tard (GOB)

      But the thing is this, when I was younger I noticed older people getting away with loads of stuff, just because they were gobs, and looked forward to being the same myself. Well, I’ve kind of reached the age when I too am a novice gob, and RP provides a great example of what all gobbers should aspire to. It’s not something to criticise I guess, but what we shoud all aim to be! Which would make RP a perfect role model.

      As a novice gobber, I should probably second the nomination of RP as president of the GOB club, if there’s any prepared to nominate him …

    120. vlad (not that one) says:

      @Thepnr 6:47
      Bringing a private prosecution against Johnson might be a worthy goal but at a cost of £2,000,000 I see little value in that when such a sum of money can be out to much better use in the cause of Independence. …

      Fair enough comment. I did chip in a small amount, almost just to add to the supporters’ tally. The trouble is, we here would be struggling to raise two million for the independence cause, or -when I think of it – even if we did, how exactly could such a sum help the cause? (Short of perhaps buying the Scotsman – or what is left of it.)

      On the other hand, if fifteen million or-so non-Scottish Remainers were to contribute 14 pence a head, the target would be met, and just possibly it might as a result become illegal for politicians to lie while in office.

      Remenber Carmichael? (I am not holding my breath, mind.)

    121. Cactus says:

      Here’s somethin’ fur ye, Cinderella, just like a Westminster.

      Fallin’ apart at the seams, oooh yeah, fuck yeah!:
      http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=D7wdLAM1yjc

      Feeling stakealogically engaged.

      Little bit more…

      TIUT12. 😉

      Hold.

    122. Brian Doonthetoon says:

      Hi yesindyref2 at 8:22 pm.

      That comment caused me to smile…

    123. Petra says:

      @ yesindyref2 says at 7:34 pm …. Petra – Yes, heard it too. Problem is we don’t even know at this stage if there’s going to be a Brexit, will it be in March or a 6 month extension, will it be a hard one or a soft one, or even if there’ll be any UK Government or UK left by the time the Tories have stopped throwing their prams out with the toy.”

      That’s the dilemna that Nicola Sturgeon is having to deal with and this Tory fiasco is no doubt scuppering her plans for the October Conference (deliberate?). Let’s just hope that the other (good) news tonight of the Tories being close to breaking up (maybe even forming 2 new parties) moves this along a bit. On the other hand I’m just patiently waiting for it all to come together and it will. I mentioned the date March 2019 prior to the EU Referendum in 2016 as being crucial for our Independence and I’ll hold on to that. We’re going to win this time round. No doubt about it.

      …………………………………

      Great front page (which I can’t get) on the National today. Now why is the BBC not reporting on this: ”Tory Ministers ‘refuse to talk to SNP MP’s’.”

      http://www.thenational.scot/news/16777417.snp-is-being-denied-meetings-with-ministers-says-wishart/?ref=mr&lp=1

      ………………………….

      I’ve now just finished reading the Sunday National, magazine and supplement and must say I’m really impressed with the articles / contributors from Nicola Sturgeon, Keith Brown, Richard Walker, Andrew Tickell, David Pratt, Leslie Riddoch, Stuart Cosgrove, Hamish MacPherson and over a dozen others. No doubt it’s p*ssing the corrupt MSM right off.

      ‘New Sunday National a hit with politicians and the public.’

      …’The Sunday National even proved to be a hit in Germany with Germans for ScotRef tweeting that they were enjoying it thanks to the wonders of modern technology…’

      http://www.thenational.scot/news/16775668.new-sunday-national-a-hit-with-politicians-and-the-public/?ref=mr&lp=16

      ……………………………..

      ‘Presenter (Gary Robertson) rips apart Scottish Tory MP’s attack on Nicola Sturgeon.’

      http://www.thenational.scot/news/16609439.read-presenter-rips-apart-scottish-tory-mps-attack-on-nicola-sturgeon/?ref=ar

    124. yesindyref2 says:

      🙂

    125. galamcennalath says:

      Wingers! Welcome to the world of … Cecil Rhodes …. and of course Boris Johnson and Jacob Rees Mogg!

      Ode on the Stability of the British Empire (1901)

      https://en.m.wikisource.org/wiki/Ode_on_the_Stability_of_the_British_Empire

    126. ben madigan says:

      o/T referring to previous comments – for all of you who missed the CH 4 documentary on the Massacre at Ballymurphy and for the diaspora who can’t access it –

      here you are, together with links to other british massacres in NI during the 30 years strife known as the “Troubles” – nice understatement there.

      NB particularly worth looking at the after effects of Bloody Sunday as reported by a survivor

      https://eurofree3.wordpress.com/2018/09/10/massacre-at-ballymurphy/

    127. Robert Peffers says:

      Arrgh! Yet another post vanished as I typed it.

      I’m not shrugging my shoulders this time, though so here it is again in a slightly shorter form. Gordon Ross has a new clip about Proms in the Park Glasgow Green 2018:-

      http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cbuprs067NM

      Wingers will have read the BBC excuses that it wasn’t about Saltires but a Health and safety issue with the poles.

      As is usual the BBC are liars and here is footage of Proms in the Park Glasgow Green 2018 to prove them liars:-

      http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5GnC6jW4va0

      Perhaps Wingers may like to count the Saltires they can see then the numbers of EU flags they can see and then the Butcher’s Aprons.

      Mind you there are no prizes ’cause Wingers might cheat and guess the answer of how many Saltires are to be seen.

    128. Thepnr says:

      @vlad (not that one)

      I think my real concern is that previous crowd funders have already raised £145K towards taking out a private prosecution against at the time someone who wasn’t named and an additional £57,000 specifically to pay for the salary of the man responsible for starting the fundraiser.

      I guess if I had been a previous contributor to any of these fundraisers then I’d be left feeling disappointed that in over 2 years there has been so little evidence of progress.

      Now they seek an additional £500,000 to get this as far as a hearing at a magistrates court after the initial QC advised that he “is concerned that a case may not be successful because he does not believe that the ‘acting as such’ requirement has been met”

      This QC is no longer on the case and a new one has been consulted although all the original funds raised from 3 years ago appear to have been swallowed up.

      https://www.crowdfunder.co.uk/brexit-justice-further-funding

      Right now there is no case against Boris Johnson to prosecute, who’s to say if there will ever be? The original QC apparently didn’t think so and has said as much, in his opinion of course.

      For £200,000 I would have expected more, even the Orkney 4’s case against Carmichael didn’t cost that and at least that one went all the way through the courts to a decision.

    129. Dave McEwan Hill says:

      HYUFD at 8.09

      As I pointed out quite clearly there have been Jews in that area for thousands of years.And Christians. And Moslems.

      The Holocaust had nothing whatever to do with the people of Palestine so why was their land – their land – given to the Jews most of whom have no middle eastern ancestry at all.
      So why did they “need have a land again to finally be safe and call their own”? Why didn’t they just integrate as all other peoples do?

      Should the Catholics have “a land to call their own”. Or the Lutherans? Or the scientologists? Is it religious thing? Or just intolerance of all the rest of us.

      Maybe they should have been given Lewis and Harris. Could have driven all those scruffy teuchters away and taken over Mull and Islay as well.

      Or Zimbabwe. (was in fact considered).

      The behaviour of the State of Israel is an abomination and its anti semitic violence unpardonable

    130. Thepnr says:

      I guess this comment from “Boris Farage” which was made on an update to the 3rd Boris Johnson private prosecution fundraiser was thinking along the same lines as I am.

      https://www.crowdfunder.co.uk/brexit-justice-further-funding/updates/?

      1 Comment
      Boris Farage
      19:51 24/Apr/2018

      Also posted in the general comments but will probably get lost in there.

      Hey Marcus – so let me get this straight; you need £25k urgently to fund £10k of unspecified solicitors fees (what was the original crowdfunding for exactly if not this?), leaving £15k to pay for unspecified “top secret materials” that you can’t tell us about because they’re so secret, and five months rent. Your address given on filings at Companies House is an expensive apartment in a Docklands development that rents at around £650 a week – is this correct? Are you seriously asking people to fund your chosen lifestyle when you state in the video that your work is mainly solitary? You could do this anywhere, and commute if you need to actually see someone face-to-face.

      I note that you’re now looking for a new silk because you disagree with David Perry QC who as you state in your video is a highly experienced and outstanding legal professional. Looking at his work and references, I agree. Quite how you would know any better than him given your lack of legal qualifications and training is beyond me. This does not bode well for your case at all.

      Back to the money, and you haven’t produced any statement of income/expenditure since December 2016. It is quite amusing to see that you’ve spent money on some very expensive film equipment and photographs of yourself, but what’s happened to the rest?

      Anyway, you’ve ignored the opinion of an excellent silk, exhausted the crowdfunded money on god knows what and even after this round you’re still going to need more. Even if you get that far, there’s a very good chance that the CPS takes the case over and stops it.

      Everybody on here, you’re wasting your money. If this was going anywhere, the barristers would have jumped on it long ago. I mean really, who spends over a year arguing with their legal team before dismissing them because they don’t like the answer?

      Last thing Marcus – enjoy the £1 I donated to post this message. Buy yourself a bar of chocolate or something.

    131. Bill McLean says:

      Thepnr – many thanks for the info!

    132. yesindyref2 says:

      @Dave McEwan Hill
      I can’t believe I’m getting drawn into this. But in fairness Catholicism is and was a stateless religion, with now Vatican City being a state in its own right and representing some arms of it. So there is a state that can represent them internationally. Scots have had a disapora, but there is still Scotland here, patiently or not so patiently waiting to have our own state and our own international representation.

      The Celts, according to some accounts the overlords in Germanic parts and cast out, and taking to the sea in the end, have Ireland as a state, Wales and Scotland as countries, and the odd region or two, plus other corners of Europe strange to behold (even in Switzerland!). We didn’t so much integrate as take over the land and make our own culture – happily sharing it with those interested of course.

      The Jews according to some accounts left servitude and had the disapora but had NO home state, no representation on the world stage – until 1948. THAT was badly handled, largely by the fading remnants of the British Empire who had made promises over the same bits of lands to all and sundry to get their support in various wars, which in themselves were largely between fading or aspiring empires where “royalty” or its replacement wanted its own empire.

      But with the founding of Israel, at least the Jews had some clout and some means of standing up for themselves internationally.

      How it’s all been handled and how it’s gone since is a totally different matter, and yes, that’s a potted history!

    133. Sarah says:

      @Thepnr at 9.49 and Vlad [ntoo]: oh right, I’m thinking again about supporting fundraiser for the case v Boris J. Good research, Thepnr. Thank you.

    134. Ottomanboi says:

      @HYUFD
      Plainly you had rose tinted specs on when you read my post.
      Anyway, China and South Korea as well as Singapore owe more to the influence of the Japanese economic model and the subtle influence of Confucian values than to the Brits who are, I assure you from some acqaintance with the cultural outlook, regarded as rather quaint and old fashioned.
      The Brits may have influenced, through force, during the 19th century, in the 21st no longer the case. Even America struggles.

    135. Collie says:

      What does HYUFD stand for?

    136. Collie says:

      We are now being told a Brecit deal within six weeks.

      Utter mince.

      Brexit is an unsolvable conundrum.

      Prepare for IndyRef2 because England will be leaving the EU without any deal.

    137. Dave McEwan Hill says:

      yesindyref2 at 10.07

      Nicely missing all my points.

    138. Cubby says:

      If the two BBC managers mentioned above wish to communicate with the independence movement what’s stopping them posting the minutes of the meeting and the action points they have taken away for themselves on this forum – Wings.

      Indeed what’s been stopping them for years now to make their case on Wings and refute allegations of bias.

      Instead we get an article in the Scotsman saying it is all rubbish that they are biased. How many independence supporters buy the Scotsman. In fact not many people buy the Scotsman at all. Not a genuine attempt to communicate.

      I won’t be holding my breath for any communication from them.

      They do follow the instructions/ needs of their owners already – Westminster. They are only doing their job that they are paid to do. Namely rubbish everything about Scotland but in particular the SNP and the Scotgov. If their conscience allows them to rubbish Scotland and their fellow citizens then that is their concern. I reserve the right to rubbish them and their output.

      Propaganda Quay is a modern day version of Edward 1 castles he built throughout Wales to keep the Welsh under the rule of the English. These managers and Donalda are the modern day version of the garrison commanders.

    139. Robert Peffers says:

      @Brian Doonthetoon says: 10 September, 2018 at 7:45 pm:

      ” … We all have opinions, that may not concur with the opinions of others but to tar someone as a “would be supporter of independence … “

      Oh! Get real! I’ve explained often enough how this brainwashing thing by Westminster works in practice and it is by the abuse of the English Language. By then using the wrong term as often as they can until the wrong term becomes acceptable and then the Scots, “Would Be”, indy supporters use the terms without even thinking about it.

      When they use a term, Such as the initials, “UK”, it should Mean United Kingdom and the United Kingdom is a two partner kingdom – it is not either a union of two countries or four countries it is a union of two Kingdoms.

      Same goes for calling the United Kingdom Britain – The United Kingdom does not include all of Britain and there are four independent countries that are parts of Britain but are not part of the United Kingdom Government. They are parts of Her Majesty’s Personal Kingdom but not governed by Westminster – That is except for the Republic which is neither part of Her Majesty’s Government nor her Personal United Kingdom

      It goes way, way deeper than that though. It is brainwashing.

      Just read that unionist buffoon currently trolling here on Wings – their posts are riddled with the lies the British Empire spun to the World for so long.

      He spoke of Concentration camps in Africa as if they were there to benefit the Africans. The British Empire invented Concentration camps and they were used, and not just in Africa, and were often essentially Forced Labour Camps that worked and starved women and children to death.

      They used much the same tactics in Ireland and in Scotland. There was more than one occasion when Westminster military were killing Scots in Scotland.

      The Battle of Culloden was on ?16th April 1746 and the Treaty of Union was signed on 22nd July 1706. That is the Treaty Of Union which is the actual legal agreement.

      There are two Acts of Union and these were each by the individual, still independent, parliaments both of which then went into recess. England permanently and Scotland’s only prorogued.

      So from 22 July 1706 to 16 April 1746 is getting on for 40 years after the two kingdoms were supposedly in union of equals. The Westminster army did just stop killing when they won the battle they ranged far and wide killing men, women, children and animals many of whom were non combatants.

      Think on that 40 years after the two kingdoms were supposedly united a Westminster army was ranging across the Scottish Highland killing anything Scottish that was still alive to tell the tale.

      Have you any idea the last time there were armoured Westminster troops in deployed in Scotland? I stood on a picket line outside Rosyth Dockyard. At clocking off time the Scottish Police who had been there all day were marched away and bus loads of rather large men wearing police uniforms were marched in to replace them.

      I recognised one of them as the son of a family I knew – he was a soldier in the SAS. This was around the time of the miner’s strike. Go figure. Churchill set tanks on the streets of Glasgow and soldiers with machine guns upon our streets.

      Of course these were not there to intimidate or suppress Scottish people – Oh! No! They were there to keep the peace for the sake of the Scots.

      Aye!

      Richt!

      Now I tried three times to do a search on both Google and YouTube of when Westminster had tanks on Scottish streets – each time the searches crashed – of course that’ll just be a coincidence.

      Aye!

      Richt!

    140. Iain mhor says:

      @RP
      You’re on a conspiracy too far with the flag ban and that goes for Mr Indycar too.
      I posted on the subject earlier and also on the ease of smuggling.
      Oh & the BBC’s H&S excuse is bollox also. Though there is an element of H&s at events up to and including no screwcaps on plastic bottles (reduces impact of a bottle of pish if it’s lobbed as the pish flies out on its arc, including over he who does the lobbing!) the flag proscriptions are about enjoying the event.
      I would suggest that the Saltire bearers were just a bit more naive or honest. Or alternatively turned up with deliberate large flags and not with diddy wee ones on a stick. If you wants a flag into an event you can get one in, but only if you know to conceal it. Its also noticeable the majority seen are small flags which I mentioned in the previous post.
      Also, you are still risking the likes of me behind you, who will choke you with your flag of any hue.

      As ever, I remain ioen to being convinced otherwise by the people who had wee saltires on a stic

    141. yesindyref2 says:

      @Dave McEwan Hill
      Actually, and I’ve just checked again, it answers every single one of your points, even the last one. Apart from the first where clearly there can’t have been Christians (or Moslems) for more than 2,018 years. But like yours it’s jsut an opinion, and of course has nothing to do with Indy either.

    142. Iain mhor says:

      @RP
      You’re on a conspiracy too far with the flag ban and that goes for Mr Indycar too.
      I posted on the subject earlier and also on the ease of smuggling.
      Oh & the BBC’s H&S excuse is bollox also. Though there is an element of H&s at events up to and including no screwcaps on plastic bottles (reduces impact of a bottle of pish if it’s lobbed as the pish flies out on its arc, including over he who does the lobbing!) the flag proscriptions are about enjoying the event.
      I would suggest that the Saltire bearers were just a bit more naive or honest, or alternatively, turned up with deliberate large flags and not with diddy wee ones on a stick. If you wants a big flag into an event you can get one in, but only if you know to conceal it. Its also noticeable the majority seen are small flags which I mentioned in the previous post.
      Also, you are still risking the likes of me behind you, who will choke you with your big flag of any hue.

      As ever, I remain open to being convinced otherwise and eating humble pie, by the people who there and had their wee Saltires on a stick chipped in the bin (were there any?)

    143. Legerwood says:

      Robert Peffers @ 10.59.

      I just Googled ‘British tanks on Scottish Streets’ without any problems. Lots of hits including this:
      https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_George_Square

    144. Reluctant Nationalist says:

      Collie: “What does HYUFD stand for?”

      The Royal anthem.

    145. Iain mhor says:

      @Collie 10:43pm
      Mibbes aye mibbes naw.
      There is one thing to bear in mind, only a seriously intransigent Westminster can deliver a true ‘No Deal’
      Always remember the money.
      Everyone worships at the alter of Mammon and the EU is no exception. They will of course brook no breaking of their core principals, nor wish to see any other member follow Westminsters suit. However, if something can be conjured to keep the money flowing then it most certainly will. However cobbled together it may be, however long it will take with fudged ‘transition periods’ (if it can be kicked all the way beyond ScotGov elections so much the better.
      So one way or another some kind of deal will be announced. Even if it is bollox and Westminster stiffs us all, it will still be announced as a ‘Great Deal for Britain’
      The alternative is a sitting Tory Government announcing “Sorry, we’ve really arsed this up”

    146. Thepnr says:

      In making a decision to support a crowd funder you are looking at two things, the first is obvious, you must support the whole purpose of the fundraiser and the cause behind it.

      Scottish Independence would be my normal chosen purpose though that doesn’t mean I would ignore others as I have a number of worthy causes that I feel deserve support.

      The second and probably most important is do you trust that person or group to use your money wisely for it’s intended purpose?

      That’s mainly what it’s all about, trust and I think that’s why most fundraisers for the cause of Independence have been successful and continue to be so, is because they have earned that trust to use the funds wisely on our behalf.

      It’s why I’m still posting on Wings and have watched it grow from strength to strength, same goes for WGD, Independence Live, Ayemail, iScot or Phantom Power etc ect.

      We get to see the results of their efforts because of our trust and their work, the people running these sites are accessible to us all and that means a lot as far as trust goes.

    147. HYUFD says:

      Robert Prefers The Concentration camps were targeted at white Boer Farmers during the Boer War, the same Boers who were responsible for introducing apartheid to South Africa decades later and in the midst of a war. They were not extermination camps.

    148. HYUFD says:

      In the battle of Culloden there were plenty of lowland Scots fighting on the Hanoverian side and even some English volunteers on the Jacobite side, it was basically a battle to decide whether the Stuart descendants of James 11nd or the Hanoveriam descendants of George 1st would take the throne

    149. Phronesis says:

      The 9.9% (for America substitute the UK)- a tale of 3 classes. The US and the UK tracking each other in the inequality, social instability and trashing democracy categories. Very relevant comments about the POTUS (can equally apply to the less than stellar political class at WM).Such social patterning historically doesn’t end well- thankfully Scotland can make a very important decision and do something affirmative to preserve its democracy and protect its citizens.

      ‘The meritocratic class has mastered the old trick of consolidating wealth and passing privilege along at the expense of other people’s children. We are not innocent bystanders to the growing concentration of wealth in our time. We are the principal accomplices in a process that is slowly strangling the economy, destabilizing American politics, and eroding democracy. Our delusions of merit now prevent us from recognizing the nature of the problem that our emergence as a class represents. We tend to think that the victims of our success are just the people excluded from the club. But history shows quite clearly that, in the kind of game we’re playing, everybody loses badly in the end…

      Inequality necessarily entrenches itself through other, nonfinancial, intrinsically invidious forms of wealth and power. We use these other forms of capital to project our advantages into life itself. We look down from our higher virtues in the same way the English upper class looked down from its taller bodies, as if the distinction between superior and inferior were an artifact of nature. That’s what aristocrats do…

      The candy-hurling godfather of today’s meritocratic class, of course, is the financial-services industry. Americans now turn over $1 of every $12 in GDP to the financial sector; in the 1950s, the bankers were content to keep only $1 out of $40. The game is more sophisticated than a two-fisted money grab, but its essence was made obvious during the 2008 financial crisis. The public underwrites the risks; the financial gurus take a seat at the casino; and it’s heads they win, tails we lose. The financial system we now have is not a product of nature. It has been engineered, over decades, by powerful bankers, for their own benefit and for that of their posterity…

      That which creates monopoly power can also destroy it; that which allows money into politics can also take it out; that which has transferred power from labor to capital can transfer it back. Change also needs to happen at the state and local levels…
      We should be fighting for opportunities for other people’s children as if the future of our own children depended on it’

      https://www.theatlantic.com/magazine/archive/2018/06/the-birth-of-a-new-american-aristocracy/559130/?utm_source=twb

    150. HYUFD says:

      OttomanBoi Hong Kong, the most prosperous part of China, had already reached that prosperity at the time of the 1999 handover of the territory from the UK to China

    151. HYUFD says:

      Ben Madigan Of course you cannot ignore the IRA bombings and killings from Enniskilen to Warrington to Hyde Park and Brighton either

    152. HYUFD says:

      Cameron Brodie Wales voted Leave too

    153. HYUFD says:

      Dave McEwan Hill As Yeaindyref2 correctly points out the Vatican City is a Catholic state and there are Catholic majority nations from Latin America to Western Europe and Lutheran majority nations like Norway and Denmark. Israel is the only Jewish majority nation in the world, their historic homeland they rightly returned too after one of the worst genocides of their people in human history. A two state solution of Israel and Palestine is the best solution

    154. Liz g says:

      Ledgerwood @ 8.11
      Thanks for reposting that link .. It really should be more widely read.
      I especially like the line.. No one suggests Queen Anne was extinguished in her Scottish capacity….Brilliant…

    155. David P says:

      HYUFD

      As soon as see the name – just lilke Dionne Warwicke, I scroll on by…

    156. Liz g says:

      Cameron B Brodie @ 7.05
      Thanks Cameron .. Its quite a read but on point as usual!

    157. Liz g says:

      Iain Mhor @ 11.37
      I can’t speak about that particular event…but a couple of my lot did event security during their Uni year’s.
      It’s most definitely the flag poles and the size of the flags that they are briefed about.
      Some don’t apply common sense when on the job,and I’ve no doubt some take pleasure in removing them sometimes because of the flag itself,sometimes because of the power trip, but more often than not….people complain at them all night for the very reason you’ve pointed out…that they can’t see!!

    158. Liz g says:

      David P @ 1.17
      Aye David we’re mostly all doing that now.
      I think that’s why the desperation to get someone to talk to..

    159. yesindyref2 says:

      @David P
      Good for study though.

    160. Robert J. Sutherland says:

      I reckon that after around 400 postings, any thread is in danger of becoming “senile”, and with the exception of rare flashes of good sense, ends up largely the province of the single-issue zealot. This thread seems a good example.

      There are many woes in the world, past, present and likely future, alas. We can’t solve them all. We just have one wee (big) problem to sort out for ourselves, and it’s eminently sortable.

      Provided, that is, we keep in mind that the main purpose of sites like this is presumably not to sell any particular minority political viewpoint on the back of indy, but to draw in the “willing unconvinced” over this one prime issue and convert them to good sense. This we can achieve if we use reliable facts and arguments to directly address their legitimate hopes and fears on the subject. Conversely, we will fail badly if the best we can be in their eyes is contentious issue-mongering party bores.

      Just sayin’…

    161. Liz g says:

      Yesindyref2 @ 1.38
      Whit! of the terminally boring,hes all over the place,there’s nay coherent conversation and hes no even funny..
      makes ye want tae read Rocks thoughts on the National dis it no?

    162. yesindyref2 says:

      @Liz g
      It takes all sorts 🙂

    163. Fergus Green says:

      OT – I just noticed the National now has a racing page.

      Not something I am interested in personally, but the hope is that this will attract more readers away from the Record and the Sun.

      Another small step in the right direction,

    164. John Thomson says:

      Wakey wakey anyone home, getting worried like reading everyones works but cant get anything after 0621 this morning 11 sept. Hope this post goes up

    165. Nana says:

      Public not told about Tory minister attendance at DUP dinner in Enniskillen
      http://archive.is/xMsMK

      Brexit: mixed messages
      http://www.eureferendum.com/blogview.aspx?blogno=86990

      The growth of private policing is eroding justice for all
      http://archive.is/DW8rC

      https://voxpoliticalonline.com/2018/09/10/apologists-for-the-israeli-government-justify-this-warning-distressing-content/

    166. Macart says:

      @Nana

      Appreciated Nana. Coffee hot and settling in for the morning read.

      Clever on that Barnier piece. 🙂

      Mr Barnier turning the heat up under the Tories whilst throwing yet another lifeline to the UK. Essentially, accept the four freedoms. Accept that the EU will NOT compromise on the four freedoms and the rest of your proposals are achievable. That should put the cat amongst the wossinames. The Brexiteers in government are basically going to have to poop or get off the pot and Ms May is going to have to accept the lifeline or burn the deal altogether. It’s a pickle for them.

      Anything that forces a statement or decision from No.10 at this point is what we’re looking for. Hopefully not too long now. 🙂

    167. Nana says:

      Good morning Macart

      I reckon Barnier is just as scunnered as we are.

      As you say “Hopefully not too long now”

      My nerves are fraying!

    168. Terence callachan says:

      Here is a good reason to believe that this story by Kenny mcbride and David hooks is such a lot of crap, we all know that BBC is not only biased against SNP and the half of the Scottish population that supports Scottish independence we know the BBC tells lies and is sneaky in the way it misreported things, we also know they do it on purpose and not by accident, it’s propaganda.

      https://thoughtcontrolscotland.com/2018/09/10/bbc-scotland-imply-snp-involved-in-cruelty-to-young-boy-calves-unlike-bse-england/

    169. Nana says:

      Link to Michael Greenwell at 7.45 is the wrong link, meant to post this tweet so you would know the podcast is back

      The Scot Indy Podcast is back & coming out frequently again.
      https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1039095912654614530

      Told you my nerves are frayed!

    170. Clydebuilt says:

      Wings Twitter Feed

      For past few days I’m not seeing Wings Twitter feed on this page . . . All I’m seeing are the words “my tweets” .

    171. Macart says:

      @Nana

      No. I don’t think it will be long. There is a decision time on the horizon and even now UK gov are searching for a way to sell it to the public. They know whatever they do though, that half of the populations on these islands are going to look for someone to blame. They also know that collapse of UK politics and political institutions is a very, VERY, real possibility. (Personally, I’m hoping for probability) Finally, they know that whatever choice they make, societal unity is gone for the foreseeable future.

      They did exactly as you’d expect of them tbh. The UK’s practice of politics, the nature of the state and system were and are it’s greatest weakness. The parties are still, to this very day, behaving toward the public pretty much as they have always done. If they’re not manipulating the narrative and your vote, then they’re insulting you. If they’re not doing that, then they’re demonising your demographic and encouraging others to marginalise and detest you.

      Their tactic has always been to sow division, fear, hatred and doubt. They divided and sub divided aaaand divided society again and yet again. Doubt if any of them ever thought that in pursuit of their utterly selfish, short term and short sighted agendas, there would ever come a day when they’d need all those demographics to actually be and act like a population. Probably still too busy telling them to hate one another so they could win a cooncil seat somewhere.

      That’s the thing about hate though. Once you’ve planted it in folks’ minds? It can take a pretty solid root. It can become a self fulfilling prophesy.

      I’d wish them luck in pulling back together what they themselves deliberately broke apart, but frankly it’s not in them. Nor would I want to be part of anything they were still responsible for.

    172. Breeks says:

      Said it before,… the EU will go through the motions of providing the UK economy with the bare bones of a survival package, but only on areas where the UK’s ongoing convergence with Europe’s Four Freedoms and EUCJ jurisdiction respected. It won’t be a concession to the UK, but you can bet your bottom Euro it will be spun as a great victory for Westminster.

      Furthermore, Michel Barnier will be obliged to have the settlement endorsed by all member states, something he believes can be done within weeks rather than months, and Brexit will enter the “endgame period”. The deal will be sealed.

      It is my greatest fear that whatever the SNP plans to do to resist Brexit and defend Scotland’s Constitutional right to stay in Europe, it MUST be enacted BEFORE the EU member states sit down to ratify how the EU signs off on Brexit.

      If Barnier is thinking in weeks not months, it is already too late for a material change of circumstances such as a Constitutional Judgement in a test case, but at the very minimum, Scotland MUST register a formal dispute about UK Sovereignty and formally contest Westminster’s attempt to subjugate the will of Scotland’s Sovereign people.

      If we postpone this action until after the EU has ratified its Brexit “Sign-off”, I honestly believe we will find the EU extremely reluctant to unravel, or even revisit, the package which Barnier has taken two years to formulate in the teeth of resistance, incompetence and obstinacy from “The British”. The automatic response to us will be why we have left it so long, indeed one minute to midnight, before seeking to change the entire Brexit landscape. That’s a question I would struggle to answer, how about you?

      Europe, I have no doubt, will remain sympathetic to Scotland’s Constitutional ambitions, that will not change, but I believe Europe will resign itself to those Scottish Constitutional ambitions being an internal matter of UK domestic policy in a Brexited UK. We will have turned a “haud oan to us” into a “haste ye back”, and we’ll be fighting for freedom from Westminster against ebullient British Nationalism and borderline fascism.

      FFS! PLEASE register a formal dispute of UK Sovereignty BEFORE Barnier’s October/November Brexit sign off Deal. Supposing it achieves nothing greater, it will constitute a formal register of objection to the process, and constitute a formal point in time we can revert back to at a later date in order to “rewind” whatever might unfold over Brexit.

      Still more of this insipid “do nothing” procrastination will absolutely kill us.

    173. Nana says:

      Brexit related

      Short thread – 3 (and only three) crucial points about the Economists for Free Trade and ERG Irish Border work based on what we know – because some of the basics are not wrong, they way they are used is wrong…
      https://twitter.com/DavidHenigUK/status/1039406720479625216

      I note the very upbeat Brexit article in The Times
      The article keys off the Barnier statement y’day re a deal being realistic in 6-8 weeks.
      Thread
      https://twitter.com/Sime0nStylites/status/1039374533894000640

      Yesterday’s FT article
      http://archive.is/F6xNN

    174. Dr Jim says:

      Or as they call it *Populist*

      In BBC overseas news: Yay! Sweden’s going to be 25% Nazi (populist) after their elections, OH damn they’re only 17% Nazi (populist) oh but never mind that’s still great eh it makes Sweden still nearly as Nazi (populist) as us making us look normal

      There’s a hope that some Italians might be Nazi (populist) that’s interesting let’s talk about that, ooh ooh there’s talk of Polish Nazi (populist) stuff now isn’t it all going great

      This is the BBC and other media reporting that basically England is a Nazi (populist) voting country but it’s OK and a good thing because some other countries are too

      They call them populist parties but they’re not really are they or they’d be winning so why change the name Nazi to populist? and why are the *British* media so annoyed when they don’t win

      For any young people out there looking for a job in newpapering

      Is this really what you want to be doing with your life?

    175. Robert Peffers says:

      @Legerwood says: 10 September, 2018 at 11:19 pm:

      ” … I just Googled ‘British tanks on Scottish Streets’ without any problems. Lots of hits including this:

      Incidentally, Legerwood, You make my secondary point for me.

      You had to Google, BRITISH Tanks to get your results.

      The point being that the tanks, and the troops were actually United Kingdom troops and even more specifically they were brought into Scotland from England.

      Now it was just after WWI so there would have been lots of Scottish regiments throughout Scotland. Matter of historic fact, those Scottish regiments were locked down in their barracks.

      There were more than enough Scottish troops at Redford alone to have undertaken an actual peacekeeping duty. Thing is it wasn’t, though, a peacekeeping role the English/United Kingdom troops were carrying out.

      So here is the long standing brainwashing in action. While the troops were from, “A”, British Army, Westminster, and the Government that sits there are not an army of the whole of Britain they are the United Kingdom army and the United Kingdom army is not the only British army.

      Neither is the Westminster Parliament the only legislature in the British Isles – there is your long standing Westminster propaganda in action.

      We have all been subjected to it from birth and without a specific mental effort every time we encounter it we propagate it for Westminster.

      We are thus pre-programmed to accept British Nationalism even while we fight back against it.

      Think about it:-

      The British Government.
      The British Army.
      The British Monarch.
      British Values.
      The British Prime Minister.
      The British Broadcasting Corporation.
      The British Police Force.
      The British Embassy.
      The British Empire.

      Then comes the simple dropping of the British bit.
      How many times do we read or hear a news item about, “The”, NHS and have to them ask ourselves which of the four independent NHS Services it means>

      So what about the Royal Navy or often just assumed to be,

      “The British Navy”.

      Here’s a British Navy:-

      http://coastmonkey.ie/meet-fleet-irish-navy/

      It isn’t The Royal Navy but it is a navy of a country, or rather part of a country in the British Isles. It is the Republic of Ireland Navy. Does it look like a toy navy to you?

      Then we have the commonly used lie when speaking about the United Kingdom we have just seen as often referred to as Britain, “The Country”, but Britain has eight countries and only four of them are in the UK a.k.a. the United Kingdom which is a two partner union of kingdoms and thus is a bipartite kingdom and only contains four British Countries.

      Whether we like it or not we are all brainwashed and we mostly comply with the propaganda that still continues to be shoved down our throats and most of us don’t even notice it.

    176. Hope you don’t mind me piggybacking Wings readership but this needs to be exposed:

      Reporting Scotland lie about their own documentary to ‘beef-up’ the bad news for Scotland

      https://thoughtcontrolscotland.com/2018/09/11/reporting-scotland-lie-about-their-own-documentary-to-beef-up-the-bad-news-for-scotland/

      Thanks

      John

    177. gus1940 says:

      All day yesterday BBC Scotland led on all their news bulletins with their ‘dramatic’ expose on the treatment of male dairy calves something which is not exactly new having been highlighted many times over the years They didn’t hesitate to tell us that it would be the subject of a program later on.

      Surprisingly there appears to have been no mention of this sensational news on STV or in any of the papers.

      Has BBC Scotland descended so far that its alleged news operation is used frequently to provide trailers for programs which inevitably are negative with direct criticism of The Scottish Government or suggestions that the government is somehow to blame?

    178. Dave McEwan Hill says:

      yesindyref2 at
      No. You are completely missing the point.
      Jesus Christ was a jew. He was semitic. The jews of that area became, many of them, christians. But some remained Jewish. Then in the 4th Century, many of them became moslems. And some remained jewish and christian. They all in the middle east,jews, christians and moslems continued to be semitic and by a substantial majority moslem.
      Semitic Jews lived,along with christians right across a mainly moslem middle east for centuries right up to the middle of the 20th century. They were all the same people with different religious choices. Them along came The US/UK and said to innocent palestianins “Well sorry Mohammed. But Germany has been very bad to the Jews in Germany. So we are giving jews your farm and your land.” and on we went with a complete nonsense giving huge parts of others people’s land to lots of people who had absolutely no right to it. And turned a blind eye as these majorly non semitic incomers strode out and invaded and took more and more land illegally.
      I have a Jewish (Semitic)acquaintance who told me the setting up of Israel was a disaster for the millions of the actual semitic jews living peacefully all across the Middle East as it has in the longer term resulted in them having to leave all the countries they belonged to for centuries.

    179. Clootie says:

      What has happened to the Twitter feed?
      I know I have double standards – I don’t want to join Twitter but I like to see the highlights of the Revs engagement with others.

    180. galamcennalath says:

      A Brexit deal soon? How?

      I think TMay will back down on two significant things.

      Firstly the Irish Backstop will be agreed. That appears to be the main obstacle to everyone signing the Withdrawal Agreement. It will be interesting to see how the DUP are appeased.

      Secondly they will drop the idea that a trade deal can be agreed before Brexit. This was always bollocks and magical thinking proposed by the UK. Initially they claimed it would be easy. Hasn’t quite turned out that way! All that was ever required pre Brexit is a non binding statement to accompany Withdrawal Agreement. It will be a new woolly statement and this is probably the lifeline being offered by the EU.

      Will this get through WM? Will the DUP accept the backstop? Will the über right feel ‘true Brexit’ is being derailed and topple May? Will Labour get off their arses? Will the Tory gov actually fall and provoke a GE?

      Will Nicola finally fire the starting pistol on the real solution to all this crap?!

      Popcorn at the ready.

    181. Nana says:

      Holger Hestermeyer says
      I am not going to disect the Economists for Free Trade‘s work. Quite frankly it‘s too bad for that. But for the amusement of @tonylgardner here are the strangest parts of the press release
      https://twitter.com/hhesterm/status/1039422596817666048

      There’s a link to who the ‘independent experts’ are within the thread

      https://www.holyrood.com/articles/news/snp-and-labour-slam-boundary-review-proposals-scotland

      @John Robertson
      Thanks for posting your latest.

    182. Famous15 says:

      For all the clowns debating Middle Eastern history an I mean west of Hamurabi country be advised you are being relentlessly steered to an opinion or statement that can construed as anti semitic and then the wrath which is destroying the Labour Party will descend upon you like a plague. Yes I know what semitic means but we all should know what it means in this affair.

      Wise up and ignore the shite who is succeeding in destroying an excellent blog.

    183. Fred says:

      @ Nana, don’t be afrayed whateffer! I see the discredited Boothman is still hanging around like a bad smell!

      Anent Boer concentration camps, they were designed for women & children & such was the conditions in them that the people died like flies. Not extermination camps as such but what’s in a name?

    184. Fred says:

      @ Robert Sutherland, this thread was contributed by Messrs McBride & Hooks, if you think you can do better feel free to submit an article to Stu!

    185. Ken500 says:

      The Balfour Agreement was illegal. The Arabs were promised the vote and Independence for fighting on the Allies side in the 1WW & 11WW. They were betrayed. The promises reneged upon. Britain & France (US) carved up the Middle East. They exploited and took their resources. Churchill took Iran’s Oil in the 1950’s. Deposed the elected Gov and reinstating the despised Shah. CIA/M15 involved in discrediting the PM and causing unrest. It happened in other places.

      UK and US (France) have been bombing the Middle East to bit for years. They have caused the worst migration crisis in Europe since 11WW. UK/US are supporting apartheid States and absolute despot monarchy. Policies which would not be supported in their own countries. Without £15Billion support from US Israel could not exist. The UK is selling £40Billion of weaponry to Saudi Arabia. Saudi spend $69Billion on the military abusing their own population. The highest Military spend pro rata in the world.

      Julie Walters relatives were also involved in the Land League in Ireland. Robert Clarke and the O’Briens. Great grand parents. Lord Palmer the biggest landowner in Ireland. The plantation 17C. He refused to lower the rents in times of hardship and famine. Evicting the tenants. Even damaging their homes so they were uninhabitable. Appalling behaviour. Many had to emigrate.

      The Irish people wanted Home Rule/Independence. They got illegal Partition.

    186. manandboy says:

      https://www.thecanary.co/trending/2018/09/10

      “Democracy is always going to hurt the privileged elite.”

      Q. So what have the Tories done since coming to power in 2010?

      A. Dismantle democracy bit by bit. The latest move is the gerrymandering of Scotland’s constituency boundaries, making it easier for Unionist Party candidates to be elected.

      Since 2012, with the Better Together campaign, Westminster and the British Establishment has been effectively at war with Scotland. But it is a disguised war, a camouflaged war,
      a war rendered invisible, because everyone in the political and media class is not saying a word about it, while at the same time going about their business and making everything look as normal as possible.

      Even Brexit is being used by Westminster as camouflage for the war against Scotland.

    187. galamcennalath says:

      When using the words British and Britain in a non geographical sense it would appropriate to use scare quotes.

      This technique conveys to the reader that the word (or phrase) is being used in an usual, inaccurate, or ironic manner. It allows the writer to distance themselves and may imply skepticism or actual disagreement. To me that all sounds quite appropriate to the many inaccurate uses of British and Britain.

      Scare quotes achieve much the same effect as putting the phrase so called before a word or phrase. This is often used in spoken form by the BBC to convey their sneering and sarcasm.

      Example we might use would be …

      Richard Leonard is leader of the so called Scottish Labour Party.
      and
      Richard Leonard is leader of the ‘Scottish’ Labour Party.

      In a similar way we could, perhaps should, refer to British and Britain in scare quotes.

      ‘British’ Government, meaning so called British Government.

    188. Lenny Hartley says:

      Clootie re twitter feed just click on the wos twitter box and you can still see it

    189. jfngw says:

      So Labour, Conservatives, LibDems an the Green have decided that they do not want primary 1 pupils assessed so that their educational needs can be catered for in a consistent manner across Scotland.

      Of course these assessments will still happen as they always have but in a non consistent manner and some pupils will receive more support than others, this being down to the individual teachers abilities.

      The unionist parties are only interested in serving up a SNP defeat, your children are the mere collator damage, the Greens are just joining in because they like a bit of show-boating.

      And anyone who gave the Greens a second vote, remember at the next Scottish election their connivance with the unionists in this and the OBFA legislation.

    190. Petra says:

      @ John Robertson says at 9:15 am …. ”Hope you don’t mind me piggybacking Wings readership but this needs to be exposed: Reporting Scotland lie about their own documentary to ‘beef-up’ the bad news for Scotland. Thanks John.”

      https://thoughtcontrolscotland.com/2018/09/11/reporting-scotland-lie-about-their-own-documentary-to-beef-up-the-bad-news-for-scotland/

      Thanks for that John. I posted your first blog on this issue yesterday and mentioned that I’d also heard the BBC Scot news presenter state, around 7:00am, “Yet none (calfs) was exported from England.”

      Later at 9:00am they, BBCScot, had dropped that line (had they read your blog?), however I’ve no idea what they came out with later.

      I didn’t see the programme last night but wonder in top of trying to make the SNP look bad they’re actually extremely annoyed that this is something else that we have to export that they don’t.

      Whatever the case the lying seems to go on.

    191. Abulhaq says:

      @Robert Peffers
      The 1651 Cromwellian great seal of England depicts a session of the parliament of England on one side and a map of England, Wales and Ireland, with the English Channel styled the British Sea.
      The appropriation of the term British by the English history myth makers has a long lineage.
      As the great seal suggests the appropriation was about obscuring the political expansion of English influence and culture in the Atlantic archipelago.
      By the mid 19th century the English/British symmetry was virtually complete with the two terms employed with the same anglocentric referent by politicians and historians and even imperialist Scots.
      English/British represented all the positive human ‘values’ even when annexing and plundering other ‘lesser’ people’s countries.
      The Americans currently carry the torch for such ‘values’.

    192. Legerwood says:

      Robert Peffers @ 9.14am

      At 11.59 pm last night you wrote:

      “”Now I tried three times to do a search on both Google and YouTube of when Westminster had tanks on Scottish streets – each time the searches crashed – of course that’ll just be a coincidence.””

      What search terms did you use that sent Google and YouTube into meltdown? Google certainly had no problem with the search term I used. Do tell.

    193. manandboy says:

      Apologies for misreporting the boundary changes where I said ” making it easier for Unionist Party candidates to be elected.” That is not necessarily true. The effect of the changes is to reduce the number of Scotland’s MPs by 6, from 59 to 53 and in the UK as a whole to strengthen the Tory representation in Westminster.

    194. Clootie says:

      I do not like right wing or unfair behaviour by nations. However we appear to have varied standards with the passage of time.

      Give me a nation that has NOT treated minorities badly. As the old saying went about the Bitish Empire “The Sun never set and the blood never dried”

      Israel and Palestine.
      The American/Dutch/British/French treatment of Red Indians
      The British and ongoing behaviour of Australian and New Zealand government to indigenous people of those nations.
      China in Tibet
      Any of the tribal dominations in various African States.
      Malaysian treatment of ethnic Chinese and Asians
      The caste system in India

      All and many more deserve our indignation but why the focus on the Middle East and silence over the plight of Red Indian tribal rights, Eskimos, Aboriginal, Maori etc etc

      Why do so many link Jews or citizens of Israel to the actions of the State of Israel?
      What if I accused you of being guilty due to the actions of YOUR government in the deaths in Iraq or Lybia?

      If at the foundation of the State of Israel had the co-ordinated attack by the surrounding nations succeeded would that massacre have been justified?

      The English annexation of Wales was successful and the attempt with Ireland failed. However both have a dreadful history of cruelty and abuse…all now history but not forgotten.

      Is the settlement of Tibet any different from Wales?
      Why is the creation of America,Australia,Canada,New Zealand different from Israel?

      I am not defending the State of Israel but highlighting the inconsistency and distortion in the arguement.

      Now you can shout at me!

    195. Clootie says:

      @Lenny 10:20

      Thanks Lenny..doh! Once again on IT skills 🙁

    196. Cubby says:

      John Robertson @9.15am

      Yet another example of BBC deliberate twisting of facts and omission of facts to rubbish Scotland and the Scotgov.

      As soon as I heard the statement in Reporting Scotland that “this does not happen in England” I thought here we go again with the propaganda.

      How many examples do Independence supporters need to see to understand that it is their job to do this. It is not accidental or incompetence. IT IS THEIR JOB to promote the union and rubbish Scotland. They know if they do not do their job they will soon be looking for another job.

      It is wishful thinking to think that a dialogue with the BBC will deliver any change.

    197. Petra says:

      Thanks for the links Nana.

      @ Nana …. ”Public not told about Tory minister attendance at DUP dinner in Enniskillen.”

      http://archive.is/xMsMK

      Amazing don’t you think, eh? Gavin Williamson, Secretary of State for Defence, travelling to Ireland and sitting down to dinner with Arlene Foster DUP, whilst the Scottish MP’s are being totally ignored by Ministers at Westminster who flatly refuse to see them. Give them 5 minutes of their time.

      Waken up Scots, in particular those who voted no last time round. Do you really want the Orange Order, or even worse ”organisations” in / from NIreland, ruling the roost over Scotland?

      …………………………..

      And how that idiot, who was never in the Forces, rather worked for fireplace and pottery manufacturers, managed to become Secretary of State for Defence is anyone’s guess. Prior role as the Chief Whip? The man who knows everyone’s secrets?

      https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gavin_Williamson

      https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chief_Whip

    198. Abulhaq says:

      Scotland Ulster links, here is an element generally ignored in the mix.
      The ‘devil’ is always hidden the detail

      Scots Catholics in Ulster, 1603–41

      Chapter:
      (p.141) Scots Catholics in Ulster, 1603–41
      Source:
      The Scots In Early Stuart Ireland
      Author(s):
      Brian Mac Cuarta SJ
      Publisher:
      Manchester University Press
      DOI:10.7228/manchester/9780719097218.003.0006
      The majority of Scottish colonists arriving in Ulster after 1610 were mainly Presbyterians but a sizeable minority were Catholics. Their appearance proved significant both for Catholicism in Scotland, and in Ulster. One migration was patronised by Sir Randall MacDonnell, earl of Antrim, whose lordship attracted growing numbers of Gaelic-speaking Catholics from the Isles and western Highlands, but this movement owed as much to political and economic factors as it did to religion. A more novel influx, driven by religious motivation, was that of Catholic Lowlanders fleeing persecution in Scotland and settling on estates of Scots Catholic planters. The most striking concentration of Scots Catholics in Ulster was on the estates of the Hamilton family in Strabane, Co. Tyrone. This essay traces their vigorous promotion of Catholicism in their patrimony of Paisley, in Renfrewshire, as well as on their Ulster lands. Close attention is paid to the Scottish background, revealing the pressures driving Scots Catholic ‘recusants’ to seek sanctuary in Ireland as well as highlighting the role of the Jesuits in the fortunes of the Catholic planter families. By 1641 the dioceses of Derry, and Down and Connor, stood among the best-resourced Catholic dioceses in Ulster due largely to Scottish input.

    199. Shinty says:

      Clootie – Native Americans please (Red Indians is a derogatory term, coined by the Brits, no doubt.

      I otherwise enjoyed your post.

    200. Ken500 says:

      The whole of Ireland wanted Home Rule/Independence. It was not divided. It was not an religious thing. It was a reaction against Westminster intransigence, mismanagement and cruelty. The movement throughout the 20C was led by Protestant Anglo Irish Protestant landowners, like Charles Stewart Parnell. The Catholics had little rights. They wanted land reform etc freedom from Catholic hierarchy. Lloyd George illegally partitioned Ireland in 1922.

    201. Bobp says:

      Shinty, aye they like coining phrases the brits. One thats always amused me, eu nationals coming here are called Immigrants, economic or otherwise. But brits ‘relocating’ abroad are called as the bbc likes to coin ‘expats.

    202. Abulhaq says:

      @Clootie
      The native American nations were generally treated better by the French than the English.
      The French made alliances with them rather than ‘ethnic cleanse’.
      The Scots fur trapper pragmatic relationship with them mirrors that of the French trappers, often leading to intermarriage.

    203. Shinty says:

      Petra says @ 10.58am
      “Amazing don’t you think, eh? Gavin Williamson, Secretary of State for Defence, travelling to Ireland and sitting down to dinner with Arlene Foster DUP, whilst the Scottish MP’s are being totally ignored by Ministers at Westminster who flatly refuse to see them. Give them 5 minutes of their time”

      ——
      YUP, low and behold Mundell yesterday (Scottish Affairs Committee) highly commending Miss Hair on the recent excellent work she had achieved (re 2,500 workers) – question was ofcourse prompted by Murdo.
      However, a little later Emma Harper took the wind oot his sails by asking if this 2,500 farm work visas was just for Scotland – turns out, no, it’s for the whole UK. FFS.

      “So how many would be available for Scotland – 10% ie 250? And would this be sufficient to cover Scotland’s requirements?” LOL

      He didn’t like it one bit, forced to reveal the emptiness of Miss Hairs ‘achievements’.

      I think the workforce required for the whole UK is in the region of 44,000? Kind of puts it into perspective eh?
      These workers are required not only for fruit picking and harvesting but also vital to the food processing industry.

    204. Clootie says:

      @shinty 11:25

      I welcome the correction and my sincere apologies to all native Americans

    205. Bobp says:

      Abulhaq. Yes the brits liked to give the native americans smallpox infected blankets as a token of their affection.

    206. Shinty says:

      Bobp – Aye, and how many ‘British’ migrants (economic or otherwise) move to countries across Europe/World.

      I’m sure we all have relatives who have emigrated to other parts of the world (temporarily or permanently)

      Seems when it’s us it’s OK – but not for folk coming here.
      British Nationalism in it’s finest form.

    207. mike cassidy says:

      And with one link John Robertson blows this whole thread out the water.

      Dialogue with BBC Scotland is mere window dressing.

      They are hostile and will remain hostile.

      As Nana’s link to Idyref2 shows, they are already preparing their primary school testing broadside against the SNP.

      http://indyref2.scot/a-corrupt-media-and-a-corrupt-opposition-another-snp-bad-attack-is-coming

      Dialogue, my arse!

    208. Petra says:

      @ Nana says at 10:10 am …. ”Michael Russell is making a statement this afternoon, not sure what time possibly around 2pm.”

      http://www.parliament.scot/

      ”I wouldn’t have known but for this.”

      https://twitter.com/IndyrefTWO/status/1039412530823749632

      Top of the BBC news bill today. BBCScot making a meal of the man, whose care package has been cut by NHS Highlands.

      I’ve got great sympathy for this man and I’m sure that the situation will be resolved, however I’m sick and tired of the BBC / STV and newspapers searching for a singular patient who’s been / is unhappy with their hospital treatment, homecare or whatever. Last week we witnessed the relatives of murdered Mike Mosey sitting in the Holyrood gallery. No doubt invited by the Tories. They deserve to see the law being changed, but what I’d like to know is does this go on at Westminster and how many more people will we see being traipsed into Holyrood? People being used for the Unionist agenda.

      More to the point how many (singular) patients, individuals who rely on home care, bereaved victims, and so on, are the BBC, etc, zooming into in England, Wales and NIreland? Well we know of the statistics, thousands, if not hundreds of thousands, and to do so would be a round the clock job for them, but they won’t do it, as it doesn’t involve the SNP.

      Meanwhile Brexit is going to devastate our economy, whilst we see doctors, nurses and carers leave the country (and oil workers – oil and gas platforms could be shut down due to Brexit), making it nigh on impossible to cater properly for vulnerable groups of people at all.

      And in the midst of all of this, shambles, people like Ruth Davidson discusses her pregnancy with the BBC. How about putting some hard questions to her BBC? Ask her, for ONE, how we’re going to care for our defenseless people in Scotland following Brexit.

      http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-45437477

    209. Clootie says:

      @Abulhaq 11:44

      Slightly different. The behaviour of a community is different from that of the State. A group of citizens can welcome or abuse citizens but it is the State that defines official policy. The French claimed the land and this was no different from the behaviour of the Dutch giving brightly coloured beads for land. The Britsh of course used the gun and giving out blankets infected by smallpox.

      My point though was the focus on recent history while ignoring the past behaviour of nations.

    210. Liz g says:

      Shinty @ 11.25
      Re ..Advice to Clootie and posters about “Native Americans”.
      As I understand it Shinty, the correct term now is -First Nation Americans-.
      A much better term “I think “ !

    211. Petra says:

      Why has the BBC not reported on this? Expose Ruth Davidson and the Tories as being a bunch of hypocritical charlatans, whose main aim is in scoring political points against the SNP. Our Scottish children are just collateral damage.

      http://indyref2.scot/a-corrupt-media-and-a-corrupt-opposition-another-snp-bad-attack-is-coming

      ……………………….

      C’mon let’s get the show on the road in time for Edinburgh, folks.

      ‘Indy Pipe band.’

      http://www.crowdfunder.co.uk/saoralbapd

    212. Clootie says:

      One more example of State behaviour

      Firstly remember that in the mid 19th century Ireland was was part of the British Empire , since the 1801 act of union, yet in the middle of that century Westminster allowed hundreds of thousands to die during the potato famine and people like Lord Palmer deported many , many people from his estate in Sligo to die on coffin ships or on the shore of Nova Scotia.

      Slightly later Westminster approved 20million pounds for the Crimea War. Money for war but not to save people.

      Always remember who caused / created the problems in places like the Middle East – The same Westminster who we remain governed by.

    213. Dr Jim says:

      The SNP must be killed: by the media metaphorically

      The way they do it should seem really obvious today, they pump out half a dozen unrelated bad stories hoping to catch as many interested parties as possible to divert and divide their focus from the really important issue facing the country so they talk about Animal welfare or they find a man who’s slipped through the NHS net or it might be a test on our kids to see if they can spot one colour from another or any number of topics which the media will exaggerate out of all proportion to achieve their objective which is to divide the country from Independence and set about….

      The killing of the SNP (metaphorically speaking of course)

      I don’t want the SNPs Indepepndence if it means blah blah blah…..
      are you falling for it, if you are then you’re as daft as they believe you to be

      The BBC AND THE OPPOSITION ARE THE ENEMY don’t let them treat Scotland like mugs unless you want to hear the BBC report every hour on the hour

      Scotlands new FM is ……..pick an arshole any arsehole because they’ll shove it down your throats and smirk while they’re doing it

      S

    214. Clootie says:

      @Liz g 11:25

      …one of the great benefits of this site – I stand corrected once again!

    215. Shinty says:

      mike cassidy says:
      11 September, 2018 at 12:04 pm
      And with one link John Robertson blows this whole thread out the water.

      Dialogue with BBC Scotland is mere window dressing.

      They are hostile and will remain hostile.

      As Nana’s link to Idyref2 shows, they are already preparing their primary school testing broadside against the SNP.

      http://indyref2.scot/a-corrupt-media-and-a-corrupt-opposition-another-snp-bad-attack-is-coming

      Dialogue, my arse!
      _____________

      Absolutely, and every BBC Scotland ‘news’ report will be ‘saving the union at all costs’ or if you prefer SNP bad, from now until independence.

      Maybe just one of the ‘reporters’ could ask Liz Smith (or any of her party) why was the P1 ‘testing’ specifically stated in their 2016 manifesto.(along with P4 & P7)

      a. She’s forgotten
      b. She thinks her voters have forgotten.
      c. Her party have adopted Slabs ‘Bain Principle’
      d All of the above.

      Absolutely

    216. Confused says:

      – very good link posted earlier

      http://www.thenational.scot/news/16833005.the-map-which-proves-opposition-to-union-was-erased-from-scotlands-history/

      Stuart McHardy also wrote “A New History of the Picts” – which is also excellent.

    217. Ken500 says:

      Kirstene Hair arguing against Tory policy brought in three years ago. Re migrant workers nos. Then claiming success? Farmers reported to be supporting May’s Brexit deal. Instead of Independence which could bring a better deal. Total ignorance. Some farming practices are a matter for concern.

      It is ignorant to quote individual cases but should include overall statistics.

      Prof Robertson website is good and informative.

      The unionists wanted more primary testing. It was brought in to pacificate them.

    218. Meg merrilees says:

      Shinty

      Apparently there is a ‘damning report’ on Scottish mental health treatment being released this week so expect a full-on broadside of SNP Baad on that front as well.

      I notice today that ‘they’ continue to damn the new buildings being constructed in Dundee – the ‘go-to’ destination for world travellers … can’t have that being a place in Scotland, let’s put them off…
      (mind you, I agree about the new office building going up opposite the new station- it’s horrendous and completely obliterates their new V and A, Architect designed stunning building)

    219. Shinty says:

      Apologies to Clootie – looks like I was wrong too.

      First Nation Americans, it is – thank you Liz g

    220. Liz g says:

      Clootie @ 12.35
      And one of It’s great strengths is Wingers like yourself who, can welcome and make use of new information as it is posted.

    221. Fred says:

      @ Petra, pipers can rattled!

    222. Lochside says:

      Breeks….totally agree with you. The SNP have neglected our Sovereign position for too long. By fighting at the level of the Scottish Parliament i.e. regional level ( Like Lincolnshire!) in the narrative of the Brexit negotiations, we have allowed our national self determination to be ignored as the central issue.

      We know from the experience of the last Ref. and Catalonia that the big boys in the EU are queasy about ‘breaking up’ so called unified states. Yes, there is sympathy for Scotland, but they have always made it clear that we need to assert our self determination all by ourselves first. Until we separate with England no-one will recognise us or take us seriously

      By asserting our claim of right to Independence at the highest international level now…we can at least lay down a late marker of our right and intention to dissolve the perfidious union with England.

      Unless our government do so now, we will be lost in the miasma of meaningless ‘UK victory’ post Brexit fudge, with it being trumpeted by the loathsome media drowning out our democratic voices of protest. Soon to be followed by executive action by England’s neo fascist state in eradicating all our devolved powers and even our nation’s very identity

    223. yesindyref2 says:

      @Dave McEwan Hill
      What you say is true as well Dave, that’s the problem. And why it’s a difficult situation.

      But what Famous15 says trumps the lot – what those fighting hard for the Union case want to do is fight it by fair means or foul, and if there are no fair means, they’ll use foul.

      Hence their attempts to stir up anti-semitism, anti-Englishness, and anything that can be used to discredit Indy supporters – or get us at each other’s throats while we miss the point that the only thing some of us will have in common with others, is the desire for Independence.

    224. Petra says:

      @ Fred says at 1:31 pm … ”Petra, pipers can rattled!”

      Great stuff Fred.

      C’mon roll up, roll up. Put a £1 in the can. If everyone who visits Wings did so we’d raise £300,000, lol. That would be tootin.

      £10,000 needed with 11 days to go.

      ‘Indy Pipe band.’

      http://www.crowdfunder.co.uk/saoralbapd

    225. Nana says:

      Michael Russell earlier today giving evidence to the Law Reform committee re the Trade bill

      Starts with a statement from Mr Russell

      Delegated Powers and Law Reform Committee – 11 September 2018
      http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IXZIHd-1mBk&feature=youtu.be

    226. Nana says:

      Statement by Michael Russell

      Constitutional Relations Secretary warns of no-deal ‘chaos’.
      https://news.gov.scot/news/brexit-preparation

    227. Thepnr says:

      @Nana

      Yes I watched the EU statement live after you giving the heads up this morning. That Adam Tomkins doesn’t half look like Mr Angry whenever he talks.

      It was good to see Mike Russell put him in his place which made him even more angry. Love it 🙂

    228. Nana says:

      @Thepnr

      I thought it best to post the the statement and video in case some wingers missed it.

      Mr Angry is easily riled, and Mr Russell is always so calm. Don’t know how he manages it. See me, I’d be throwing something, maybe a tantrum but more likely a shoe!

    229. HYUFD says:

      Yesindyref2 If you really wish to lament Scotland missed what would have been the semi absolute monarchy of Bonnie Prince Charlie becoming King Charles IIIrd of Scotland and maybe England too that is your affair

    230. HYUFD says:

      Ken500 Tell that to the 90,000 who signed up to join the Ulster Volunteer Force

    231. HYUFD says:

      Dr Jim The UK voted to Leave the EU in the 2016 referendum as Norway and Switzerland and Iceland are other European nations outside the EU, that is a completely different matter from UKIP winning the 2015 and 2017 general elections which it did not

    232. HYUFD says:

      Abulhaq Actually both the English and French had alliances with Indians, the Iruquois for example at various times fought for both the French and the English.

      https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Iroquois

      The largest number of Indians in the colonial error killed were by the Spanish in Latin America

    233. Hamish100 says:

      HyUfud

      aWfy tetchy wee man. bottom line englandterra used force of arms to gets its way in the past. How many folk died in the process?

    234. yesindyref2 says:

      YADDA YADDA YADDA

    235. Fred says:

      Just watched the prog about hero Captain Cook, apparently he was actually a bit of a cunt & met a very nasty & well deserved end!

    236. Liz g says:

      Re the statement by Mike Russell… only just logged on
      So apologies if it’s on the next thread but!!
      Did I hear him right??
      The Scottish Government will have no truck with the Withdrawal Bill!
      That’s… if it means what I think it means… quite a statement!!

    237. Gary says:

      It’s very nice that they listened, isn’t it?

    238. HYUFD says:

      Hamish100 The British Empire was less bloody than most empires from the Aztec Empire to the Roman Empire to the Mongol Empire to the Spanish Empire to the Nazi and Japanese Empire

    239. HYUFD says:

      Fred ‘In three voyages, Cook sailed thousands of miles across largely uncharted areas of the globe. He mapped lands from New Zealand to Hawaii in the Pacific Ocean in greater detail and on a scale not previously achieved. As he progressed on his voyages of discovery, he surveyed and named features, and he recorded islands and coastlines on European maps for the first time. He displayed a combination of seamanship, superior surveying and cartographic skills, physical courage, and an ability to lead men in adverse conditions.’
      https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/James_Cook
      Which I would imagine is rather more than you have ever achieved

    240. Liz g says:

      Yesindyref2 @ 9.00
      Yoda,Yoda,Yoda.
      Housekeeping I am..
      Helping You must
      Otherwise R2 D’oonthetoon will be our only hope!!!

    241. K1 says:

      Son of a Scotsman…he was bound to go far.

      (snigger)

    242. starlaw says:

      HYFUD
      You are extremely proud of the murderous British empire which was the biggest and bloodiest empire in history. The Empires of the Aztecs Mongols and Romans were nothing like as large or as well populated as what Britain swept over. In the case of the South American natives by far and away died from Diseases brought by the invaders, not the sword or bullet.

    243. HYUFD says:

      Starlaw The British Empire had good points and bad points, it covered the largest population of any Empire in history but not the largest land area, that was the Mongol Empire. There were few mass murders in the history of the British Empire, indeed most deaths there too were largely from disease, certainly as a percentage of the population it covered it was less bloody than most other other Empires

    244. Fred says:

      Cook certainly killed a lot more folk than I have, directly or indirectly!

    245. Cubby says:

      Why on earth are people feeding that diddy HY………..

      He is spewing out a lot of troll nonsense and I for one am sick of seeing the initials on any thread.

      Just ignore. Pointless conversing with cretins like HY………

    246. starlaw says:

      Last word on the Subject BRITISH EMPIRE were the only one to achieve a complete GENOCIDE this HYFUD was the murder equivalent of winning the world cup. Something every Little Englander should take pride in, indeed they should have a national Genocide day public holiday.

    247. Fred says:

      @ Cubby, you’re right!

    248. Fred says:

      It could be Annie Wells, a person of contracted intelligence.

    249. HYUFD says:

      Starlaw No. Name one people that were wiped out or almost wiped out by the British Empire? The Nazis may have tried to do that with the Jews, the Spanish wiped out a lot of the Aztecs but no ethnic group were wiped out by the British Empire

    250. Hamish100 says:

      hufud

      does 1/2 wiped count?

    251. Liz g says:

      What Cubby @ 10.26 said…
      We’re no here tae entertain someone who canny find anybody in the whole of England tae talk tae.
      We’ve a Country tae sort

    252. Brian Doonthetoon says:

      RE: THE EMPIRE.

      “Heading off to America, he ended up in Philadelphia and in 1795 he published a book whose title many will find resonant today: “The Political Progress of Britain or an Impartial History of Abuses in the Government of the British Empire in Europe, Asia and America since the Revolution in 1688 to the present time, the whole tending to prove the ruinous consequences of the popular system of Taxation, War and Conquest.”

      They certainly don’t write titles like that any more. Thomson became famously involved in the scabrous political journalism of early 19th century America but has become almost forgotten in his native land. The truth about British Empire brutality in Kenya only came out publicly a few years back but Callendar was drawing attention to “an endless catalogue of massacres in Asia and America“ back in 1795.”

      and

      “I would like to quote something from the 1870s that echoes Callendar and also reflects another reality – that the Scots language was still a vibrant part of public life at the time.

      This is from The People’s Journal, not a publication that has been associated with radicalism of any kind over the past century, but was written by its then editor W.D Latto writing under the nom-de-plume of Tammas Bodkin:

      “We got India by murder, treachery an stouthreif, an we hae the cheek to blackguard Rooshia for annexin her neebors. What did we do the ither day in the Sooth o Africa? Did we no annex an independent republic ca’d the Transvaal? O yes, but that wis for the guid o the inhabitants.””

      and

      ” Rees-Mogg, Johnson, Fox and their ilk may have fantasies of returning to the glory days of Empire but in Scotland there was always an awareness that the brutal expansion of British power across the globe was based on practices developed here, in the aftermath of Culloden. That there were several Scots to the fore in those brutal days should serve to remind us that the gatekeepers of establishment entitlement and privilege are with us yet.

      And it should also be remembered that the policy of divide and rule so expertly used by the British across the globe has left a history, often ongoing, of violence and disruption in so many of the Empire’s former colonies. And why do the posh-boy Brexiteers think that countries across the world, that were looted by their predecessors, will be lining up to trade with their former colonial masters when the Brexit bourach comes to its probably disastrous conclusion?”

      These quotes are from,

      http://www.thenational.scot/news/16833005.the-map-which-proves-opposition-to-union-was-erased-from-scotlands-history/

    253. Breeks says:


      HYUFD says:
      12 September, 2018 at 1:06 pm
      Starlaw No. Name one people that were wiped out or almost wiped out by the British Empire?

      Well, there was the ACTUAL genocide in Aboriginal Tasmania 1826 to 1829.

      Between 12 and 29 million Indians died of starvation while it was under the control of the British Empire, as millions of tons of wheat were exported to Britain as famine raged in India.

      In 1943, up to four million Bengalis starved to death when Winston Churchill diverted food to British soldiers and countries such as Greece while a deadly famine swept through Bengal.

      Talking about the Bengal famine in 1943, Churchill said: “I hate Indians. They are a beastly people with a beastly religion. The famine was their own fault for breeding like rabbits.

      The Mau-Mau in Kenya.

      https://www.theguardian.com/news/2016/aug/18/uncovering-truth-british-empire-caroline-elkins-mau-mau

      Then there’s the Irish potato “famine” which was no such thing…

      And let’s not begin to count the number of deaths which were a consequence of imperial policy to agitate bitter acrimonious division and sectarianism amongst a population so that the British need only supply sufficient manpower to hold the balance of power.

      The British Empire also did its level best to empty the seas of fish, the plains of North America of bison, and the plains and jungles of Africa and the Far East of big “game”, leaving numerous species on the brink of extinction if not actually extinct.

      Today we marvel at Tony Robinson’s Time Team excavating evidence of stone age tools and flints. At the height of the British Empire, the British were happy to subjugate numerous surviving Stone Age cultures from the native Americans to African and Australasian cultures and “introduce” them to mechanised weaponry wherever they resisted British colonial rule.

    254. HYUFD says:

      Hamish 100 No because you have no figures to support that

    255. HYUFD says:

      Brian Doonethetoon Quoting an article in the Nats’ house journal adds little to your argument. The Mau Mau were brutal in Kenya forcing mothers to eat their babies then killing them too, nothing but a forceful response could be used to that. In India we beat the French then did deals with a number of Maharajahs to ensure British rule there. Transvaal was the home of the Boers who started apartheid. Most of our former colonies remain in the Commonwealth and as May’s Africa trip showed want to do deals with the UK

    256. HYUFD says:

      Breeks There are still plenty of aborigines in Australia and most of those who died died from disease, same with the Benghal famine which took place at a time when Britain was under siege from the Nazis and India by the Japanese. The Mau Mau were brutal terrorists, see above. Plenty of conservation work and discovery of news species from Darwin to Livingstone and through the natural history museum.

    257. Liz g says:

      Hamish 100
      I hope you’re no going to play “A Secretary” and run aboot gathering information ???
      That’s no why yer here after all!

    258. HYUFD says:

      The USA was an independent country by the 19th century when the British Empire was at its height

    259. yesindyref2 says:

      The cow jumped over the moon;
      The little dog laughed

      Shrug. Where’s my spoon?

    260. Liz g says:

      Yesindyref2 @ 11.16
      Is it a Runcible spoon?
      Because I don’t think that’s a real thing…. its a British fantasy … A bit like the Scottish deficit !!!

    261. Hamish100 says:

      Youfud

      Right wing lies are just right wing lies.

      Everybody responsible for the deaths of indigenous populations apparently. Opium wars Chinese, Irish potato famine has to be the Irish, Highland clearances – obviously the Scots, Concentration camps in South Africa, the nasty Boers. Indian famine, the Indians etcetera.

      Yip the red white and blue of the brutish empire had no part to play. After all they were just jovial ex pats enjoying the sun.

    262. HYUFD says:

      Hamish100 I never said the British Empire had a perfect record, but it was less bloody than most Empires in history, especially if you compared it to say the Aztec Empire or the Spanish Empire or the Mongol Empire or the Ottoman Empire or the Nazi and Roman Empires or the Belgian rule I the Congo

    263. HYUFD says:

      or the Belgian rule in the Congo

    264. Hamish100 says:

      Hyfud

      Your opinion. It was aggressive. It was colonialist. It was wrong. The Anglo saxons and normans were invaders of other indigenous peoples lands

    265. yesindyref2 says:

      @Liz g
      Well, it does appear that there was a solid foundation to that word, according to British History. Indeed, the first warship in the Royal Navy established by Henry VIII (he of the austin powers) was indeed painted a beautiful pea green, hence its name (according to British History) of the Mary Rose.

      Not a lot of people know that, but the BBC is all over it. As indeed is Theresa May.

    266. yesindyref2 says:

      Oh aye, and one thing more.

      Butcher Cumberland. Feck the British Empire, with biscuits on.

    267. yesindyref2 says:

      The Duke of Cumberland, however, was interested in doing more than winning a battle. He wanted to ensure that the long series of Jacobite uprisings in Scotland, with previous flare-ups in 1689, 1708, 1715, and 1719, would be brought to an end, once and for all. He was, after all, part of the Hanoverian dynasty the Jacobites were trying to overthrow. A copy of the general orders issued to the Jacobites the day before the battle had been captured on 15 April, and someone, presumably on Cumberland’s instruction, had inserted a forged addition, to the effect that no quarter was to be given to any Hanoverian prisoners. On the morning of the Battle of Culloden, Cumberland’s troops were circulated with an order that said: Officers and men will take notice that the public orders of the rebels yesterday was to give us no quarter. As hints go, it was a heavy one, and in the aftermath of the battle, Cumberland’s troops committed widespread atrocities, killing many wounded, surrendering and fleeting Jacobites, as well as bystanders, residents, and just about anyone else within reach.

      Worse was to come. Cumberland established his headquarters at Fort Augustus, which had been named after him during his childhood. From there he sent out columns of troops backed by ships of the Royal Navy to commit what would now be regarded as genocide across the Jacobite areas of the Highlands. Cumberland actually considered shipping the entire population of these areas to the colonies: but in the end satisfied himself with burning every farmstead, croft and house; with widespread murder and rape; and with rounding up and sending south 20,000 head of cattle, effectively wiping out the entire basis of the economy of the Highlands. For his activities at Culloden and afterwards, Prince William Augustus came to be known in the Highlands as “Butcher Cumberland”.

    268. yesindyref2 says:

      The Duke of Cumberland, however, was interested in doing more than winning a battle. He wanted to ensure that the long series of Jacobite uprisings in Scotland, with previous flare-ups in 1689, 1708, 1715, and 1719, would be brought to an end, once and for all. He was, after all, part of the Hanoverian dynasty the Jacobites were trying to overthrow. A copy of the general orders issued to the Jacobites the day before the battle had been captured on 15 April, and someone, presumably on Cumberland’s instruction, had inserted a forged addition, to the effect that no quarter was to be given to any Hanoverian prisoners. On the morning of the Battle of Culloden, Cumberland’s troops were circulated with an order that said: Officers and men will take notice that the public orders of the rebels yesterday was to give us no quarter. As hints go, it was a heavy one, and in the aftermath of the battle, Cumberland’s troops committed widespread atrocities, killing many wounded, surrendering and fleeting Jacobites, as well as bystanders, residents, and just about anyone else within reach.

      Worse was to come. Cumberland established his headquarters at Fort Augustus, which had been named after him during his childhood. From there he sent out columns of troops backed by ships of the Royal Navy to commit what would now be regarded as genocide across the Jacobite areas of the Highlands. Cumberland actually considered shipping the entire population of these areas to the colonies: but in the end satisfied himself with burning every farmstead, croft and house; with widespread murder and r*pe; and with rounding up and sending south 20,000 head of cattle, effectively wiping out the entire basis of the economy of the Highlands. For his activities at Culloden and afterwards, Prince William Augustus came to be known in the Highlands as “Butcher Cumberland”.

    269. Liz g says:

      Yesindyref2 @ 1.17am
      Really ….That Henry the VIII guy sounds fascinating..
      Mibbi one day the BBC will make a programme aboot him!
      His boat sounds aboot as sea worthy as an Empire biscuit right enough!

    270. Liz g says:

      Yesindyref2 @ 1.52
      I’ve been reading through the link ye put up on the other thread.
      Horrific, but fascinating reading..
      I think Culloden visiter centre are going to have to ..update.. their scripts!

    271. yesindyref2 says:

      Yes, that National article has made me remember history I thought I was immune to!

      Then of course there are the Clearances, which some think ended in the mid-19th or even 18th century. Not so. There were cases which were in effect clearances right up until around 1905-6, 4 or 5 years after Queen Vic died, and years after the Crofters Act. Then 1905-6 there was new land legislation I think. Can’t find the relevant online references though probably undiscovered Scotland or electric Scotland would have some, but I did find this from the days when the Scotsman was a bit more open-minded:

      https://www.scotsman.com/lifestyle/the-highland-clearances-1-465248

    272. HYUFD says:

      Hamish100 So on your argument then any non Celts in Great Britain should be forcibly repatriated?

    273. HYUFD says:

      Yesindyref2 The Jacobite rebellion was in large part between lowland Scots supportive of the Hanoverian monarchy and Highland Scots supportive of restoring the previous Stuart monarchy

    274. Liz g says:

      Yesindyref2 @ 5.20
      The information (as disturbing as it Is) is certainly beginning to all come out now.
      The myths of Culloden ,,, ye know the oh it was religious really , lowland Scots were there on the English side, so that proves that the government forces were the goodies in it..
      When ye read the Generals and Nobel’s letters it definitely opens yer eyes to the way of it..
      And that map… there were mair army garrisons in Scotland in the late 1740s than Tesco extras today…. And THAT is supposed to be the “settled “ Union that saved Scotland
      I suspect there’s loads more to be found, and new books to be written

    275. yesindyref2 says:

      @Liz g
      With respect to that propagandic revision of history, the English, Welsh and Northern Irish are as much victims as we are – you can see that from the posting before yours where the poster maintains his false view of history, in spite of having the opportunity of reading that link I provided to allow him to compare his institutionalised version of history, to at least consider another version and the evidence for it.

      It’s the closed mind like his that propagandists feed on to pursue their agenda. Curiously the BBC is almost schizophrenic on history. Its day to day politics and news shows push the institutionalised version which, as an example, would show Germany as totally at fault for WW2, BPC as a coward, Mary Quuen of Scots as a religious nutcase.

      But it also has documentaries (mostly BBC2 but also its website) which put things in a totally different light. I learnt quite a lot also from BBC’s “Bitesize” revision for schoolchildren which used to be at 2 or 3 in the morning. Those were ruthless at times in their search for and presentation of truth, and it’s a shame the broadcasters and editors of BBC1 don’t watch their other channel.

    276. Liz g says:

      Yesindyref2 @ 2.41
      Sometimes people would rather die than think …. and history teaches that they often do!
      They never seem to ask the obvious..
      EG..
      What do German school children get taught about WW1 & WW2 is there a different truth to it ?
      Why did so many follow bonnie Prince Charlie?
      What did the ordinary man and woman in England gain from the Union with Scotland back then?
      Have they ever seen a share of Scotland’s oil in these times?
      When did England last stand on it’s own two feet without the resources of another country?
      And the big one…. what did the ordinary man and woman in the UK gain from Britain having an Empire?
      Because as far as I can see it was absolutely nothing it was all for the ruling elite!
      Yet they would throw the lives of their own children at it and claim pride in doing so!

    277. yesindyref2 says:

      @Liz g
      People don’t like change, so if there’s a reason not to go for it they, perhaps we generally, will go for the eaay option. But in 1997 74.6% went for the YES to Devo option the Tories told us would see all the financial companies leaving Scotland. That didn’t happen, in fact more came here.

    278. HYUFD says:

      LizG England was an independent nation for 700 years before the Act of Union and 500 years before the official Union with Wales.

      And the Empire did do some good things like spread the Common Law, Westminster style democracy, develop infrastructure and end the practice of Indian Widows being thrown on funeral pyres

    279. yesindyref2 says:

      There’s “Laws in Wales”, no such thing at all as “Union with Wales”, same as there was no such thing as the Union with England by Normandy in 1066. Both were conquered by brute force.

      Jings, I despair of people’s ignorance of their own history.

    280. Liz g says:

      Yesindyref2 @ 9.21
      Tis a pity right enough..
      As I said I used to wonder what German teacher’s taught about the 2 world war’s…
      Now I get curious about English history teacher’s!
      Do they just not mention the crusades,or do they pretend that it too was about religion,and not really about filling English coffers.
      India
      China
      Africa

      What do they say all the war’s with Europe were about before they dragged Scotland in?.. Immi-fucking-gration…
      I swear to Lucifer,I am waiting on the docudrama aboot how immigrants swimming in from the Channel sunk the Mary Rose.
      England has never lived without the resources of other countries… A Thief is England, and looking very much like a liar too,and yet her people poor..strange that!

      I know they have some knowledge of the Darrien scheme.. But do they really believe England wasn’t up to is ears in robbing other countries,and only Scotland was in south America?

      And the best one…. Some really seem to believe that England was a western democracy since 1066… Even, it has to be said women who have just recently celebrated the suffraggetts..
      While I say best,I actually mean the saddest.
      I mean common sense disnay even enter into it..
      Like I said the logical next question..
      If the Empire brought western democracy to India.. Then what was Gandhi for?
      I mean how good can this BBC bite size be… There are such gaps..?
      Old but wise advice… Me thinks…. Switch aff the telly and open a bloody book..(not you Yesindyref2) mainly English history teacher’s!

    281. yesindyref2 says:

      @Liz g
      Ah well, the vote in the UK, even for men, dependended on having property or paying rent. And even after some women “won” the right to vote, the propery restrictions didn’t really go until 1928.

      Equal Franchise Act – 1928

      At last, women were given voting equality to men. In 1928, the Equal Franchise Act gave all women over 21 the right to vote, removing property requirements completely. Some 15 million women were eligible to vote in the following 1929 General Election.

      Can’t vouch for the website, but yrtis

      https://www.halarose.co.uk/news/a-timeline-of-british-voting/

      So much for the “Common Law” and UK democracy.

    282. HYUFD says:

      Yesindyref2 The Laws in Wales Act confirmed full Welsh representation at Westminster and full Union, before that Wales largely had its own civil law in the main 5 counties there but English criminal law

    283. yesindyref2 says:

      I found out a lot of this stuff from my days btl on the Grun by the way. Spent way too much time there, now what does that remind me of!

      I guess you could say HIFUD’s view of “British” history isn’t so much a potted one as a potty one …

    284. yesindyref2 says:

      Nope, the word “Union” is not used at all in the 1535 Act. Here’s a source I found quickly (legislation repealed in 1993 for the Welsh Language Act so gov.uk is blank, presumably never typed up.

      https://en.wikisource.org/wiki/Laws_in_Wales_Act_1535

      Once again, there is no such thing as the Union with Wales, nor any Union with Wales act, nor is there any Treaty of Union with Wales. England had already appropriated them as a “principality” / “dominion”.

      Kind of like stealing a car and then changing the registration document to show your name as owner.

    285. Liz g says:

      Yesindyref2 @ 11.45
      I think you’ve got it… Michael Bentines “Potty Time”.
      That’s where the British Nationalists learnt History..
      Well done you!!

    286. yesindyref2 says:

      @Liz g
      Yes, and I suspect some of them have forgotten their potty training.

    287. HYUFD says:

      Yesindyref2 No, if Wales was an occupied country then it would not have had its own civil law as it had until the Laws of Wales Acts. The fact it had an the English heir as Prince of Wales was neither here nor there, there were no real Kings of Wales pre Edward 1st (in fact unlike Scotland Wales has never really had its own monarchs for the whole of Wales apart from maybe Owen Glendwyr)

    288. HYUFD says:

      In fact Wales can only be said to have been really united once before the principality under Gruffyd Ap Llewellyn, Glewndyr effectively titled himself another Prince of Wales.

    289. yesindyref2 says:

      Dismissing Wales with sich contempt wouldn’t please Huw Edwards, he of the news. I suggest watching his The Story of Wales, I have it on DVD and it’s way better done than Oliver’s cold and “union”-biased History of Scotland.

      Or just carry on posting nonsense.

    290. Liz g says:

      Yesindyref2 @ 4.17
      Michael Bentine has a sin tae answer for …
      Wondering how many in England actually believe that shit?
      Of course, fortunately, we don’t need to care… we only need to bring, a tiny,teeny,weeny 6% of Scotland brought up to speed with the nature of Westminster!! Yay!!

    291. HYUFD says:

      Yesindyref2 Who is ‘dismissing Wales with such contempt?’, it now has its own Assembly. The fact is Wales has never really been an independent country, certainly not to the extent Scotland was anyway, indeed given Wales voted Leave like the rest of the UK and London voted Remain and is far richer than Wales you could even say there is more chance of an independent London city state than an independent nation of Wales, though there is little real chance of either.

    292. yesindyref2 says:

      They say ignorace is bliss, and when it comes to the history of Wales (amongst many other things), HYFUD must be ecstatically blissful.

    293. HYUFD says:

      Yesindyref2 No I have even studied on Wales for a year and everything I said was accurate

    294. HYUFD says:

      Yesindyref2 No I have even studied in Wales for a year and everything I said was accurate

    295. yesindyref2 says:

      WOW! You’ve been to Wales for a year. I’m sure all historians will change their texts now, and defer to such an expert.

      I went to Portugal on holiday years ago with my wife, so I guess that makes us experts on Vasco da Gama – and India of course.



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