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Wings Over Scotland


Posted on January 01, 1968 by

If people really can’t behave in other comment threads and insist on derailing them with irrelevant and disruptive posts, as a last resort the comments in question will be moved here. People are also free to use it for general off-topic chat.

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    1398 to “Quarantine”

    1. Longshanker says:


      “but if he’d rather just rant away in his own wee corner about how I’m a [REDACTED]”
      I never called you a [REDACTED], only referred to the tactic used by you as [REDACTED], where you tried to disingenuously sow the untruth that myself and Captain Caveman are one and the same person. What does that say about your alleged principles or moral code or whatever you want to call it?
      I don’t suppose it makes an iota of a difference. And I guess you’ll probably throw this comment into some kind of censor bin where you can kid yourself on that you’re not censoring it. But really. If you do, you know you are. 
      As for the ‘as others see us’ piece. Didn’t you find it ironic in the RT report that one of the complaints raised of alleged BBC bias was from the Labour party? I did. Seems to have passed you and your commenters by that one. Seems like Mr Murdoch had a point at Leveson.
      I’m more than willing to debate on the points. You were too busy trying to provoke me because I used [REDACTED] as a moniker for the First Minister.

    2. Longshanker says:

      @Scott Minto

      “Im afraid that your blog is nothing more than ATL Trolling (Above the Line), as can be seen from these excerpts:”

      I’m afraid that this reply is BC Trolling (Beneath Contempt), as can be seen from your extended greetin polemic. I’m glad you read the piece though, because the Bay of Pigs ‘groupthink’ essay was in my mind when I wrote it.

      Now this may have been good enough to illustrate my point …

      Hmm. Not convinced at all. Most of what you illustrated was lifted from a site outlining the 14 warning signs of a cult. So if that’s your idea of diatribe maybe, just maybe, you should look at yourself first before casting stones of injured self righteousness.   

      When you calm down from your BC Troll, take a look at some of the things Captain Caveman said regarding the “As Others See Us” piece. 

      In the comments RevStu had the temerity to suggest we were both the same person. That tells me more about perception, blindness and potential bitterness than anything you’ve said here.

      When I first posted on this site, I was new to comment posting, yet RevStu still saw fit to ridicule and cajole – he could have given a warning regarding site policy if I was considered out of line.

       He also called me a ‘hate blinded idiot’ without any context. When someone uses ad hominems without justification, the gloves come off. Bear that in mind when you next deign to launch an attack on me – at least you’re justifying your attack.

      Captain Caveman strikes me as pretty clever, and I recognise when someone is able to articulate a superior argument to me. That seems to have bypassed RevStu.

      The idea for the cult piece was inspired by comments made by both McWhirter and Hassan when referring to the SNP and it’s leadership virtually parallelling Tony Blair and New Labour in terms of the Murdoch fiasco – so are they hate blinded and bitter too?

      Or does the ironic hypocrisy of this escape you considering you were the author of the  ‘groupthink’ piece?  

      Humour’s in the eye of the beholder Scott. I find this attack on me mildly funny, if a little disappointing (I thought you were smarter than that). Other people might grant it credibility. Big deal.  Well done for the indignation though, it provided a wee chuckle.            

      I’m pretty sure Joan McAlpine wouldnt appreciate you calling her Foxy.

      I don’t think she’d care one way or the other considering that it’s Moan McVulpine who’s being called Foxy. Did you miss that?

    3. Longshanker says:

      Of course you were, dear, what with you being such a big fan of the SNP and all.

      Some people are as clearly incapable of thinking outside of the box, honey bunny, as they are at providing evidence for accusations made. 

    4. Longshanker says:


      …but no-one else has had the bottle…

      If you’re so brave and fearless in the face or debate, tell me why you blocked my twitter account? I never tweeted anything untoward or offensive, yet you blocked it anyway. That was brave of you. Took a lot of bottle I’ll bet. I salute your indefatigability in the face of craven censorship.

      Others might say it was gutless and hypocritical. I couldn’t possibly comment, you’d censor me.


    5. Rev. Stuart Campbell says:

      “If you’re so brave and fearless in the face or debate, tell me why you blocked my twitter account?”

      Oh, that’s an easy one. It’s because I have no desire to be alerted and copied in every time you post another screed of poisonous hatred about me to someone else in a pathetic attempt to ingratiate yourself with them. No “bravery” is required: rather, like someone who’s a devoted Christian and doesn’t want to watch Jerry Springer – The Opera in case it upsets them, I’m choosing not to go and see it, instead of demanding it be shut down so that nobody can. I’ve had enough stalkers for one lifetime, thanks – assuming that you’re actually a different person to the last one, of course.

      Blocking you on Twitter doesn’t affect your free speech one iota, so it has nothing to do with “censorship” whatsoever. You can continue to say whatever vile bollocks you like about me there, to anyone who’ll listen. Blocking you just means that *I* don’t have to.

    6. Longshanker says:

      Blocking you on Twitter doesn’t affect your free speech one iota, so it has nothing to do with “censorship” whatsoever.
      Yeah, whatever hunny bunny. You keep telling yourself that. Bet your mum and dad agree with you. Your actions and posts over the blockings you’ve ‘suffered’ undermines your own sophistry. Nice own goal there. I salute your hypocrisy concerning your hypocrisy.
      Even the fact that this post is here is testament to your censorship policy. Gutless, mean spirited, no true conviction and, most of all, no bottle.
      I’ve had enough stalkers for one lifetime, thanks – assuming that you’re actually a different person to the last one, of course.
      Don’t flatter yourself sonny. Stalking – another instance of your total lack of perspective, scale or sense of reality. You plainly have no idea of what a stalker actually is, just as you have little idea of what’s actually happening on the ground in Scotland.  Didn’t Kate Higgins refer to you as being ‘creepy’ and a ‘misogynist’ recently? Wonder why that was?
      You call me poisonous and a stalker – no evidence. You accuse me of being a unionist – no evidence.
      I accuse you of being a misanthropic narcissistic solipsist – abundant evidence throughout the net and this site. 
      Just as a send off. You’ve mentioned poker on this site. From the evidence I’ve seen, I wouldn’t play against you. You’re the type that plays with a stacked deck and then deludes themselves into believing that the credit being given for winning is deserved. 
      Keep going the way you’re currently going and another big public slap down will no doubt be heading your way. Guys like you can’t help the pathological pattern of inevitability. Just why were you doorstepped by the Star for instance? Any links to that story? Or were you just a victim of happenstance? Or, as I suspect, was it something to do with your narcissistic behaviour?

    7. Longshanker says:

      Another arbitrary censorious blank. Oh my! 
      Was that whoosh I heard the whoosh of a so called moral code Winging it over Scotland?
      I think we should be told.
      Quick couple of questions.
      1) Don’t you find that Scottish rhinoceros hide is a wee bit too thin these days?
      I’ve found that it borders on being laughably diaphanous.
      2) Do you find that dealing with a stacked deck is more conducive to ‘constructive’ debate?
      I’ve found, through experiencing it, that stacked deck play personifies humbug, hypocrisy and weakness in action.

    8. Rev. Stuart Campbell says:

      “Another arbitrary”

      Tip: learn the meaning of the word “arbitrary”. The last two (out of a grand total of, I think, three) have been for the exact same phrase. Take the hint.

    9. Longshanker says:

      Tip: Learn the meaning of censorship and then learn the meaning of ‘playing with a stacked deck’.
      You do both. Kinda makes you look like a cheap mean spirited cheat.

      Well done. You must be proud of how clever you are.  

    10. Rev. Stuart Campbell says:

      Clearly “censored” is another word you need to look up as well as “arbitrary”. Not a single word of your posts has been removed. Stop behaving like a petulant spoilt child and you’ll stop being treated like one.

    11. Longshanker says:

      Not a single word of your posts has been removed. Stop behaving like a petulant spoilt child and you’ll stop being treated like one.

      You clearly don’t know the meaning of irony or REMOVED oh Reverend Stacked Deck Censor of Pot-Kettle Blackness. 

      Q. What is the Scott Minto reply doing here?

      A. It was RE-MOVED. 

      You REMOVED it as an act of censorship because you have a penchant for hypocrisy when dealing with your own brand of medicine. Don’t fret though, it’s not much diifferent from the actions of the majority of mean spirited cheap cheats.

      I take it the definitions of ‘arbitrary’ and ‘censored’ I should be looking for are in the Official Rev Stuart Campbell dictionary? Re: The person saying it is the one who gets to decide what it does and doesn’t refer to. 


    12. Rev. Stuart Campbell says:

      Feel free to explain your inaccurate addition of the prefix “re-” to the accurate statement “moved”.

    13. Longshanker says:

      For illustrative purposes – clearly. You don’t get that? Jeez.

      I’m beginning to think you’re not very clever at all.   

      Playing the lexiphanic Gauleiter indeed! How predictably repetitively dull of you.   


    14. Rev. Stuart Campbell says:

      “Illustrative”? Illustrative of what, exactly? You’re really testing my patience.


    15. Rev. Stuart Campbell says:

      Reluctantly, I’ve taken the decision to ban Longshanker’s account and IP address for a long list of offences including repeated spamming, persistent trolling and personal abuse. My opinion is that he deliberately pursued that outcome by dint of increasingly provocative attacks, in order to score what he’d consider a point, which I’m happy to award him. As ever, dissent is welcome on WingsLand, spammers and abusive trolls are not.

    16. Triskelion says:

      Good job Stu, although I must say it was quite amusing!

    17. The Man from Delmonte says:

      In case anyone came here to discuss the 11th Sept attacks, I watched this video last night: It is a brief and rather compelling documentary which primarily focuses on the physical evidence that calls into question the cause of the attacks. If you don’t believe there is anything suspicious about how the towers collapsed, give this a watch.

    18. pmcrek says:


    19. ianbrotherhood says:

      Just popped in for a quick drag…
      You always get the best conversations outside…
      Anyone got a light? 

    20. ianbrotherhood says:

      Hope this links okay. 

    21. ianbrotherhood says:

      I’m going to stay here, chain-smoke, and talk to myself.
      I write fiction. I don’t make a fortune at it, but do alright. At the moment I’m working on a novel which was originally a novella, then rewritten as a telly-drama, then sketched as a drama series, and is now being reassembled as a conventional novel.
      I’m anxious to pick the brains of anyone who has strong feelings on whether or not the upcoming referendum and/or the following GE is a suitable backdrop for the story.
      The original novella was about a killing which happened in Glasgow in the mid-eighties. It was a brutal sectarian murder witnessed by a friend, and he told me about it approx 14, 15 years ago.  
      The recent stushie about Alasdair Gray’s essay set me thinking about how the average reader might react to the story – it’s about sectarianism, yes, but it’s about much more than the usual blue/green Billy/Tim stereotypes, and this independence debate is focussing attention on many of the themes touched-on e.g. the behaviour of the State in dealing with ‘enemies’, covert operations etc. It’s very much a character-driven story, the main players don’t sit around having discussions about politics etc – they just try to get on with their lives but end-up being drawn into conflict without ever really understanding why. I can imagine that a lot of the ‘don’t scare the horses’ brigade will hate it, and unionists will also cry foul when they see how the British State is portrayed – that’s the ‘problem’, and what I’m keen to hear any views on.
      Should writers and artists in general stay away from the politics, or do we have a duty to acknowledge that these important societal changes are happening, that they have a real effect of people whether or not they have any interest in them?
      Curious – and very very grateful – for any thoughts.
      I’m currently awaiting the go-ahead from the publisher of my first novel, Bulletproof Suzy – if he thinks it’s a go-er then I’ll just have a few weeks to knock the thing into shape, so I have to make decisions quickly. Even if he doesn’t want to take it on, I’ll probably go ahead and self-publish. 

    22. Adrian B says:

      Hi Ian,

      The novel sounds very interesting indeed.

      I read your comment the other night shortly after you posted it. I did start to write a reply, but felt that it didn’t reach the points that you were making. I decided to sleep on it over night to think a reply through further as you have clearly been considering things through yourself. Having done that I have more questions for you rather than answers.

      Might the following be true? In hard economic times, people seem to want to be entertained or informed, they probably don’t wish to watch or read stuff that they feel further frightens or threatens their beliefs. In better times these same people might well be happy to watch or read something that is more challenging to the establishment.

      ‘Should writers and artists in general stay away from the politics’
      Some certainly do stay away from politics as a subject and this could be down to any number of reasons including  being uninterested, focusing on their work rather than the interference and distraction of politics, because that is what matters to them or feeling scared away from the subject by others. There are many writers, artists and for that matter musicians that do get involved in politics.

      ‘do we have a duty to acknowledge that these important societal changes are happening’
      I think where there is relevance many writers do acknowledge societal changes – how they show them and what significance they place upon them varies 

      How do you deal with the political and sectarianism issues? How do you wish to deal with it? How other writers, critics, readers and your publisher views your work or solely do you write for your self? Who’s advice you you normally take on board about you writing and what do they think? One thing I will say right here, right now is I don’t want to see the Indy Referendum or even a UK General Election mired by violence – we have to deal with the threat of Political parties fighting for their lives at the moment and its not pretty. Not at all keen on the idea of spilt blood being the back drop of real politics. I will however engage in conversation about it with you. 

      Are you prepared to make compromises – what are those compromises and are you willing to go that far? Would you consider publishing a politically correct version now and release a warts ‘n’ all ‘writers version’ a year to two down the line?  

    23. ianbrotherhood says:

      Adrian, many thanks – the questions you’ve raised are the same I’ve been asking, but for very obvious reasons it’s been difficult to find a forum to air them. No-one wants to see any trouble. Period. It’s one of the very few things all parties agree on.
      Avoiding the possibility that it might happen, or not ‘talking it up’ is understandable, but I don’t know if it’s wise – the UK is presented with an existential threat, and one would expect that those charged with the preservation of the Union will do anything to make sure it survives. In trying to understand ‘the opponent’, any decent chess player tries to anticipate all possible moves, but this is not a game, and there are no rules. 
      I’ll have to think carefully about the questions you raised, and will address them, but this is just to acknowledge your response and thank you again for taking the time to reply.
      Cheers for now. 

    24. ianbrotherhood says:

      I want to take your points one at a time. Good thing about being here in ‘Quarantine’ is that it’s not quite so frenetic as the regular threads – I sometimes find it very difficult to keep up with good discussions, and Rev Stu puts up new stuff so often, it’s easy to lose track of conversations, especially if they go O/T.

      ‘Might the following be true? In hard economic times, people seem to want to be entertained or informed, they probably don’t wish to watch or read stuff that they feel further frightens or threatens their beliefs. In better times these same people might well be happy to watch or read something that is more challenging to the establishment.’

      No argument there. It’s difficult not to come across as an intellectual snob when discussing the general quality of discourse in this country. It’s appalling. I know there are all sorts of theories about dumbing-down, but in the end-up it’s a question of personal responsibility – I don’t recall there ever being a govt-funded campaign encouraging people to be careful about what they consume via MSM/Hollywood etc. There seem to be endless ‘health’ campaigns aimed at getting us to stop eating this, smoking that, drinking the other, but nothing about what we consume mentally i.e. advertising & propaganda/spin. It surely doesn’t require in-depth academic studies to establish that non-stop consumption of soap-operas, US sitcoms and PMQs cannot be healthy.
      But that’s maybe beside the point – if people are averse to reading or watching material which frightens them, it perhaps help explain why the MSM is so timid in giving us ‘the truth’. Then again, it could be a self-perpetuating Catch-22: ‘people will be scared, so don’t show them that’ ; how can the ‘people’, unaware of whatever it is that someone else has decided they shouldn’t see, be afraid of something they don’t know about? 
      An example pertinent to the story – there are many people in Scotland, especially outside the Central Belt, who live full normal lives from cradle to grave, completely untouched by sectarianism. It has absolutely nothing to do with their lives. The character in the story who is killed by teenaged bigots has no real awareness of what lies behind his killers’ hatred. But – importantly – the killers themselves don’t really understand what it is that they ‘hate’ and murder their victim for no other reason than he happens to be wearing an item of jewellery that marks him as ‘one of them’. 

      Aside from Just Another Saturday (McDougall, 1976/7??) I can’t, off the top of my head, think of a Scottish drama where this subject has been examined. (Maybe No Mean City, but not sure too what extent.) Even then, McDougall had experience of the Orange Order and was relating some of his own experiences and disillusionment. I’ve never seen a telly drama which treated the issue in a way which reflects the day-to-day reality. Jim Kelman’s work does it – it’s always there, surfacing in ‘normal’ conversations, wee remarks here and there which are, in effect, code, and not decipherable to outsiders.

      If our MSM, in the past thirty years or so, had made any effort whatever to produce work which holds a mirror up to the real society a lot of us are living in, many of us would have seen long before now just how ugly and insidious sectarianism is, how it festers and, ultimately, wrecks lives.

      It’s worth pointing out that first drafts of the story were completed as far back as late 2009 – well before any of us had an inkling that a referendum was about to appear on the horizon.  

      I don’t think I’ve even dealt with your point. Yet!
      Enough for now.

    25. ianbrotherhood says:

      Outside again, having a quiet drag…
      It’s nice and quiet here.
      Spring is in the air.
      Thank fuck for that.

    26. FreddieThreepwood says:

      @ Cameron B
      Don’t really see the point in this. Someone who has taken such a perverse and wilful objection to a patently reasonable argument in favour of more egalitarian and representative politics is most assuredly going to be blind to any explanation of it. It doesn’t require explanation – ergo it’s pointless. But you know, I’ve had a shitty day (just made worse by stumbling across a re-run of the new Yes Prime Minister ‘comedy’ in which the pompous PM runs rings round Robbie Coltrane’s … (? I don’t know – was he meant to be Salmond, or an SNP MP?) with a mixture of Daily Mail-esque racism, the old myths about subsidy junkies and new lies about North Sea oil and having to join the Euro. All ‘light entertainment’ of course, anyone who gets hot under the collar about it is just being silly and hyper-sensitive … yet you can tell from the joyous whooping and cheering from the English studio audience how much they thought it was all made up.)
      So, where was I? Oh yes …
      Part of the reason the UK state is so rotten to its core is that, like Royalty (yeah -I’m a republican as well – any issues there?) it is in-bred, self-serving and self-preserving. From Privy Councillors and Govt ministers to civil servants, senior judiciary, think tanks and the top jobs in the BBC and ‘Fleet Street’, it is dominated by a privately educated middle class who have also attended either Oxford or Cambridge … or have a bloody good reason not to have done so.
      Braco spoke of a self-preserving loop of politicians and policy makers in the context of the debate on female representation. I merely broadened the argument to say that an independent Scotland would ideally (in my view) also give us the opportunity to anchor its politics in the real lives of the vast majority of its citizens, be truly representative of the population – not of a cabal of old school chums and members of the same undergraduate societies. We want politicians who have experience of life – all of it, from running businesses to working on farms, from organising labour forces to caring for the vulnerable in society. Yes, we want them educated to a high level if necessary (not always for that rare commodity in politics, common sense) but need we equate such an education always with Fettes or Glasgow High or Loretto? Of course not.
      And I took heart from the current SG cabinet make-up – one that is in stark contrast to that of a UK Govt containing more old money and privilege than any for decades.
      Do we need any of our legislators to come from fee-paying schools? Until such times as equal educational opportunities are provided for all in society then yes, I am sure we will. Would I be gutted if Eck appointed a minister who’d been to Watson’s instead of the local comp? Of course not. It’s not an argument about ex public school pupils – it’s about diversity, fairness, equal opportunities and openness.
      If you want to get all precious about your own education then I suggest you do that in your own time. This is a forum for discussing the politics of Scotland now and the potential for making it better in the future. And I am pretty sure I stand with the majority (some of them ex public school boy pals of mine) who don’t want Scotland’s body politic to follow the example of the London establishment in its narrowness, selectivity and prejudice.
      As for my comment being a ‘disgraceful example of realpolitik’. Eh? Either you are referring to the pejorative usage of it being the politics of power and coercion in which case I genuinely have no idea what you are talking about. Or you are referring to its actual definition as the politics of realism and pragmatism … in which case I genuinely have no idea what you are talking about.
      And finally – and assuming you do know the meaning of the term bigotry – I would caution you against being so inflammatory in your language simply because someone says something online you take exception to.  I take exception to that. But that is all you need to know.

    27. The Man in the Jar says:

      Good comment.
      Firstly I am not a swivel eyed “eat the rich” Commie. I was “encouraged” to leave school at 14 and have made my own life on my own. I have travelled far seen and done many things. A lot of them I would rather forget. Some I will treasure.
      There is no substitute for life experience. Career politicians? I would not cross the street to piss on one if he was on fire!
      A mans a man for aw that. Etc.

    28. CameronB says:

      @ Braco
      I have no desire to fall out with you and I hope I am able to express my self sufficiently clearly and without add further rancor. It might surprise you that I also think it unacceptable that your place in society is still largely defined by birth wright. I can assure you I do not come from a particularly privileged background, and experienced hostility from both sides of the educational divide. Not because of who I am, but because of what I was perceived as.
      In an ideal world, everyone would have equal access to opportunities to advance their potential. However, that is clearly not the case now, so it must be considered utopian thinking. Desirable and potentially achievable following a Yes vote, but it  will not come about over night.
      As far as I was aware, bigotry means a prejudiced or intolerant attitude, which is exactly what you were directing towards those that are privately educated. How many kids do you know that got to choose what school they went or go to? If it is the majority, then perhaps I have an old fashioned attitude. But who says that private education should not be allowed, just because we do not agree with it. My disagreement is with the privileged access to opportunity that can comes through a private education, not the process or practice itself. What I think we need to do is improve the access to opportunities for those who have little, not take away from those who have too much. Otherwise we might as well admit that an independent Scotland will become a totalitarian communism and we all saw what a total feck up that was. As such, I do not think I was being particularly precious about my own experience, though I did take exception to the suggestion that the likes of myself are somehow undesirable. Especially just after reading Cath’s article.
      With regard to my suggestion that you were possibly engaging in realpolitik, I was actually trying to give you the benefit of the doubt. As such, I thought you may may have been suggesting a pragmatic attitude should be taken towards educational background of the cabinet. As the majority of Scots are not privately educated, the logic would suggest the majority of Scottish votes would most probably be identified with more readily with the SNP, though I do not know the backgrounds of the other parties. Apparently I was wrong though and you were in fact being incredibly deterministic.
      I try my hardest to chose my words carefully and hope I have given you sufficient explanations to why I responded to you in the manner that I did. As I said, I have no desire to fall out with you as your previous posts have been generally humane and amusing. However, I would ask you to consider what I have written here and on Cath’s thread.
      As far as the repeat of YP goes, I’m sorry I can’t help you as I do not own a TV. I am not surprised that it appears to be a smoke and mirrors smear and fear exercise though.

    29. CameronB says:

      Apologies for addressing my post to Barco and the scrambled third last paragraph. I missed the edit, but I hope you get the gist Freddie.

    30. CameronB says:

      @ Freddie T
      You have a point. I could go up to 11, but I’ll tone it down a bit. I just get very passionate, I was told earlier today. I’m sure you know what it is like. I’ve been dreaming of this opportunity for almost 30 years now, since I was able to vote. Its like it dream coming true and I  just don’t want anything to go wrong. We’ve just got to get it done.

    31. Braco says:

      From my understanding of what Freddie was saying in response to my point, it was just to give an example from within the current Scots government of where he felt one of my self serving and selecting loops, so evident in UK politics, was effectively countered and missing in the Scots institution. I really did not read that as an attack on privately educated people in any way but rather an attack on the structural unfairness and advantage that networks formed through these exclusive institutions go on to then allow vast over representation in positions of power and influence for those lucky enough to be members.

      I think we can all agree that the advantages spoken of and gained by this group have NOTHING to do with the relative qualities, intellectual or educational of either the private or comprehensive educated candidate.

      Just to add petrol to the flame, I would happily ban all faith schools along with all private Schools for much the same reasons. Schools are there to educate, not to form networks to advantage some and disadvantage others. Similarly they are not there to reinforce religious difference by dividing children and communities from one another, during which process minor cultural and religious differences are amplified to the gaping chasms found in Norn Irelan and to a lesser (but still shocking) level in West Central Scotland. Schools should be hubs around which whole communities can revolve and could easily be turned into the location of most community resourcing. (such as free meals for the old or needy as well as all pupils in the form of breakfast and lunch clubs for example.)

      Just also to apologise to Freddie for not replying to his post. I actually must have totally missed it somehow (?) At least this minor skirmish between the pair of you has finally brought it to my attention (winky). On your main point Freddie, I do agree there is an obvious difference in the demographic of Cabinet Secretaries here in Scotland but I am not as confident that it is a permanent feature.

      To me the SNP in 2007 were a party of non ‘professional’ politicians that stormed the pillbox. None had held real high State office before and so were outsiders outside the loops. But, even now only in the second term, I sense the Party attracting more and more the type of ‘professional’ politician that is drawn to power rather than principle and so the party will inevitably be colonised, just as every successful political party has been.

      This, along with the slow conversion of our principled politicians into the “professional party politicians’ that time in government always seems to insure, leaves me worried that without radical changes to or Party system of governance, we will eventually find ourselves back under the control of the same corrupt political class as we are now (although granted a Scots one).

      Still this is just chat for now. Keep the head, stay united, get the YES we must get and the rest can be argued over in a free and independent (and hopefully radical) Scotland.
      Vote YES

    32. Braco says:

      Sorry I edited para breaks etc but it did not change (unhappyface)

    33. FreddieThreepwood says:

      @ Cameron B
      None taken
      @ Braco
      Hear hear.
      Right, let’s move on.

    34. CameronB says:

      @ Braco
      re: Banning faith and private schools. Are you trying to get me banned here? 😉
      I just get very jittery when I hear the B word. There are better placed opinions than mine, on how best to ensure appropriate ethical, legal and educational frameworks exist, to prevent educational practice that is deemed unacceptable. My concern is with the consequence of education, not the process or method of its delivery. Who am I to say what can or can’t be done, so long as the action is not considered harmful to society or pose a clear and present danger to myself?
      Bigotry and unearned privilege should have no place in the education system. Like hubs. Would share.

    35. Braco says:

      Institutions, not people CameronB. You’d be safe enough with me (evilsmile)

    36. CameronB says:

      @ Braco
      Yes. (hopefulsmily)

    37. Braco says:

      had another go at Žižek over on The Path Of God. Sorry (smillywink)

    38. Vronsky says:

      I’m just inserting a placeholder here to show that I really would like some constructive discussion of demarchy.  I’ll have a serious go at writing a manifesto, but will need to depend on help from all here.  Clear your heads, sharpen your pencils.  Let’s see what we can come up with.  We could be terrifying!  Post any random paragraphs you think should be in there and we can stitch it all together as our little patchwork political quilt.  Very therapeutic, and nice to pass on to the grandweans.

    39. CameronB says:

      @ Vronsky
      Is there any precedent for what you are suggesting?

    40. Braco says:

      I am here! Will do and I already have some general ideas on the structure that I would fancy. It’s just a question of the time. I am committed to this manifesto though and will do my best but certainly not for your grand weans alone, I want a Limo, statues, expense accounts, songs written to us (me) and about us (me) from a grateful nation.
      Looking forward to reading (claiming) everybody’s ideas on this subject.

    41. Braco says:

      precedent, schmesherent ! WE are the Icebreakers! Are you for or agin us?

    42. CameronB says:

      @ Braco
      I’ll do anything I can to help, though I’m not sure what that might be. Can you suggest some reading material to get me started?

    43. Braco says:

      It’s too late for reading! You’ve read enough! Start designing the political system sans parties that relies upon chance or ballot, (a la Jury duty) that you believe would revolutionise Scots society for the better.
      If you don’t believe such a system will achieve the above requirements then maybe we can find you a spot as our tea boy. (winky)
      In in this Demarchey (Quarantine, Vronsky) you are only as good as your last manifesto paragragh addition, so most likely, I will be making the tea!

    44. CameronB says:

      @ Barco
      Do I get a pageboy hat, or do I need to supply my own uniform? If so, can I claim against tax? 😉

    45. Braco says:

      I am now calling for an official headcount and roll call for the minutes of our Inauguratory meeting. Please sound off.

    46. CameronB says:

      Cameron. Though I’ll probably need to wait until the ball is rolling, before I am able to contribute. I’m still not too clear on the proposal.

    47. Albert Herring says:

      “Quarantine” sounds terribly separate.
      Seriously though, we’ll need to somehow fix the ballot so the we founders of the nation aren’t accidentally excluded from power. Wouldn’t like to miss out on the Limos, statues, etc.

    48. Braco says:

      It’s dangerous to join a political movement the founding principles of which you don’t know or understand.
      As Yoshi Pinkelstein found when he joined the embryonic NSDAP at his local pub in Moosach, 1919! (veryverysadsmily)

    49. rabb says:

      Right here goes my concept of Freemocracy!
      1. A Written “Social constitution” is created and agreed on independence. This constitution is protected by the faculty of advocates. All advocates MUST swear allegiance to the sovereignty of the people of Scotland and to uphold the constitution free of political persuasion or personal gain. In essence, they are the protector of the people.
      2. Local government (cooncils) are re-elected with party whips strictly banned.
      3. Each cooncil elects MP’s (PR model) from within to serve in the National government for 5 years. These MP’s work within the framework of the Social constitution.
      4. A new upper house (Civil representatives) made up of members of civil Scotland are drawn by lots (simillar to jury service). and act as the governments check & balance. Term to be discussed.
      Meat on the bones:
      The government has all the usual legal powers such as taxation, national budget, defence, foreign policy etc
      All bills must be approved by the faculty of advocates to ensure they comply with the constitution and sovereignty of the people before becoming law.
      The government elect a head of state (President if you will) to serve for the 5 year term of government. The president forms his ministerial cabinet free of party whip.
      There is no general election. As above, MP’s are sent to government via local authority elections.
      The upper civil house have the power to sack the head of state and his / her cabinet and force the government to install an alternative.
      Power essentialy lies with local authorities which means power is closer to the people.

    50. Braco says:

      Yes Albert,
      I think you may have stumbled upon the first paragraph of our peoples manifesto!

    51. CameronB says:

      @ Braco
      Join, I thought I was just to be the help.
      Seriously though, I am keen to investigate alternatives to the shitsdome we have today. It would be a terrible waste of the opportunity we have here, as I don’t think internet freedom can be guaranteed for more than a few of years.

    52. The Man in the Jar says:

      @Albert Herring at 11.43
      Wee winkeything
      Just in here for a nosey.

    53. Albert Herring says:

      Lower House: Party politicians to be locked incommunicado in enclave with instruction to elect head of state. White smoke to be sent up chimney when this task has been accomplished. However said chimney has been capped due to smokeless zone regulations, so process may take some time.
      Still working on next bit.

    54. Braco says:

      First off the blocks in Quarantine! Your place in history is assured.

      However, I worry that your very first point seems to directly politicise the judiciary! Even should they swear allegiance, with our historic experience of the law I would not trust them with the milk money never mind the upholding of our Revolutionary Constitution!

      Party whips? NO Parties. (period!)

      Maybe .3 and .4 should be reversed.

      I see the Civil jury as the driver of Government policy making with the elected professional politicians chamber as a purely practical and advisory role. Much like a political wing of the civil service.

      Most professional politicians could and would follow any party political agenda in order to progress their careers, so this would simply formalise that tendency (and utilise it).

      Great start Rabb. Off to bed now, but will put my bear bones proposal to The Quintet ra morra……  Hopefully.  Night Night all.

    55. Vronsky says:

      Yes, there are numerous precedents.  Start with the Wiki entry.

    56. ianbrotherhood says:

      If youse are going to be spending time out here, please be mindful of the neighbours and use the ashtrays provided.

    57. ianbrotherhood says:

      And watch out for the trolls – they never come out to take part in any discussion, but they have been known to pish in the planters and nick tumblers and we end up getting the blame. Bastards!

    58. ianbrotherhood says:

      Yeah, it’s interesting stuff, and I read a fair bit of it earlier via your suggestion to start with the Wiki entry.
      Problem – this kind of thinking is so far out of the box that most folk cannot even begin to get their heads around it, and even the prospect of having to do so scares the living daylights out of them. 
      The line-up of the current UK Govt and opposition is living proof that the ‘Democracy’ we have doesn’t work. That should be as plain as day to anyone with a brain, but the majority of the population accept the status quo so long as they can see where their next meal is coming from, and can ‘believe’ that they’ll be looked-after when they’re sick and/or old. Despite growing evidence that old age and frailty is more likely to bring instantaneous stripping of every asset you have, along with the strengthening possibility that you’ll be humanely euthanised by the NHS, most folk don’t realise what a predicament they’re in – short of some calamitous event which results in them sitting in a pedestrian precinct with a hand-made poster saying ‘Homeless. Please help’, they’d rather just carry-on and hope against hope that things will get better.
      It always happens to ‘someone else’. In a few months it’ll be happening to those on the shitey end of this Bedroom Tax, but even then, most others will just thank all known gods it’s not happening to them, keep their fingers crossed, and soldier on. I don’t know what it takes to wake these people up, but we can only hope that those in Scotland do so before the rest, and grab the opportunity to free ourselves from this nexus of parasites.

    59. Braco says:

      Great find there! Very interesting read. I scanned it quickly but will take my time over it later tonight. Not had a chance to put down my own proposal yet but I am committed and really looking forward to perusing your own and others.

      Once you start thinking about this properly it really does excite the old, long dormant and radical democrat in you, doesn’t it. How are your own mullings going?
      you are probably correct about the radical nature of this concept in the eyes of the general public (at the moment) but we are here to try and sort out a feasible set of concrete proposals tailored to Scots society, history, institutions, and our future democratic weal.
      A Constitution is to be written for the first time in our history. Is that not just as radical ? We must be ready with ideas and answers when the time comes to start agitating post YES vote (please God!) otherwise we know who will write the thing and who’s interests it will serve.
      Any way team, I am off to start some writing down (although it feels to me more something that needs to be drawn at this stage rather than written)

    60. Albert Herring says:

      Probably the best way to achieve this will be the gradualist approach. i.e. start with local government – preferably at a much more local level than at present (which is another story), prove it works at that level and take it from there.

    61. Braco says:

      That would be nice but I just don’t think the ‘powers that be’ would’ A. allow it and B. allow it to succeed! I am also not sure that local Government would not be better run as in Swiss Cantons direct referenda, with the Sortition/jury System used to form national decision making and policy direction for the country as a whole.
      The article that Vronsky found and it’s comments seems to move me further along the road of a mixed constitution, but with the guiding principle that decisions should be made as locally and directly as possible at every level of government. Modern technology being a very important factor in the blank page design of this.

      Also, so much of this will depend on a well educated citizenry who understand their constitution and constitutional rights instinctively and are motivated (by the state) to crave participation.
      I get very excited about this idea because I think of the way that generation after generation of Governmental jurors will return to their communities, having formed strong contacts with the permanent governmental and social institutions of the country.
      They will remain points of access, wisdom and information. In effect, everyone will eventually end up knowing someone that has been involved in political decision making. Kind of binding the Country together as each political generation passes as opposed to the current system which seems to alienate the electorate more and more after each election.

    62. ianbrotherhood says:

      I hope I’m not coming across as po-faced, trying to dampen anything. This kind of discussion is important, even if it does nothing other than force us to express our thoughts in ways which wouldn’t be welcome in the majority of threads elsewhere on this site.  My worry is that the people who should be most enthused by what’s happening are not, for the most part, equipped to get involved in the discussion. 
      I’ve never been through conventional teacher-training and have resisted the temptation to do so for many years. Given that my ‘specialist subject’ is creative writing, I regularly encounter adults who want to write stories, novels, movie-scripts, poetry etc, but most of them never get anything done because they can’t ‘think’ creatively – as far as I can tell, the reason they can’t do so is because the education system has stripped them of the ability to express themselves. It’s horrible to see intelligent people (often people who have excelled in their professions) really struggling to spark an original thought in their heads – they appear to be trapped in ways of thinking which are so restrictive, so hard-wired into self-censorship and peer-approval that anything they do produce is the sort of hack rubbish that no-one, themselves included, would ever want to read.
      It’s perhaps too early to know if the Scottish Government’s faith in ‘Curriculum for Excellence’ is justified, but – and this is a big ‘if’ which really needs to be addressed by a practising teacher who’s at the sharp end of these reforms – IF the Primary and Secondary curricula are to be remodelled along lines which build upon advances in Early Years education, that would be very encouraging. I’m not suggesting that we’ll see wholesale Steinerisation, that all 16-yr olds will leave school able to knit and play the xylophone, but if the emphasis is shifting to a more holistic approach to education, concentrating on the formation of ‘happy, well-balanced’ adults rather than exam-passing automatons, we should welcome it.
      Short of a reform along those lines, I don’t see how – given the mesmerised state most of us seem to be in – we can realistically anticipate any significant raising of the quality of debate in the short-term.
      Thinking out of the box? Something ‘radical’? Here’s one:
      I have worked with youngsters on factory assembly-lines. Girls who were only fifteen. They’d used relatives’ NI numbers, the employment agency didn’t bother doing the requisite checks, so they ended-up on 12-hour night shift work when they should’ve been at school the following day(s). They weren’t complaining – they had a wage to look forward to. They could save some money for a holiday, clothes, a night out at the weekend, some half-decent drugs – that’s what they talked about. I know they did, because I was there, and I heard them.
      Those lassies (and their male peers) knew, even before they got to Secondary school, that the ‘system’ held nothing for them, and they wanted out. They’re the kids who cause chaos in classes, do anything required to get themselves suspended. They don’t want to be there. I’ve worked, via Education Services for my local Council, with S2, S3 girls who had all but dropped off the education system’s radar because there were no sanctions remaining. For some of those lassies, pregnancy becomes an attractive option – love, security and happy-ever-after don’t even come into it. 
      So – and this is radical – why not let them go?
      Why not make it clear to all children, without any blame or rancour, from an early age, that when they’ve achieved the basics of literacy and numeracy, they’ve the option to leave, and are welcome to return as and when they feel they’ve found something they want to study further. ‘Lifelong learning’, then, isn’t just a slogan. 
      I’m just throwing this in as a thought, but it’s something I hope may attract the attention of a professional working inside the system. I’m heartily scunnered hearing the usual politico-windbags bleating about ‘every child reaching their potential’. It’s meaningless rhetoric and they all know it. Ask any teacher who hasn’t been utterly drained by years of crowd-control – they’re best qualified to explain it in all the gory detail.
      Education is just one of the basics we have to look at in new ways, but it’s fraught with dangers – not least of which is the risk of being branded some ‘Daily Mail’ reactionary. I hope this contribution doesn’t make me sound like one of them.
      Cheers all.

    63. Vronsky says:

      Test.  (Had two posts disappear).

    64. Rev. Stuart Campbell says:

      “Test. (Had two posts disappear).”

      There’s nothing in the spam filter under your name, can’t explain that. If you give me any distinctive words you remember being in the posts I can search for those.

    65. Braco says:

      Would anyone here know how I can post a Jpg with my comment? It would be great if I could post a photo that I have as a diagram to simplify my written post. Any technical advice would be great. Many thanks in advance. (hopefulsmily)

    66. Braco says:

      you pretty much describe two thirds of my old schools population, Braidhurst (and that included the teachers).
      I don’t think your proposals are at all Daily Mail. The problem comes when your kind of proposal is simply put forward as a cost cutting tactic, when what it really needs for the policy to fulfill its higher aims and start changing society for the better, is in actual fact a shit load more money than was being spent on the original broken system.
      ‘Care’ in the community springs to mind. That was in fact a very humane and farsighted approach to mental illness, that was enacted by a bunch of savage ‘no such thing as society’ Tory cost cutters.
      Result was a totally inhumane enactment under the cover of the original ideas progressiveness. The mental Hospitals, like Heartwood, were closed down and sold off with the long term institutionalised patients thrown into a world they could not cope with and that could not cope with them. Leaving both the patients and the communities they were to be cared ‘in’ without support or backup.
      Private money made. State shrunk. Job done.
      That’s the only reason that I would be wary of your Ideas. I have for a long time favoured turning all schools, both primary and secondary, into ‘Community Hubs’ where they could fulfill the much larger role of lifelong learning for the whole community.
      They could also provide free meals in breakfast and lunch clubs for parents, kids, teachers, the old etc etc. They could also as institutions be the place where community action and rescources are accessed. This unfortunately would mean enormous investment in order to start to transform them into a sort of community college that caters for all ages.
      instead we have the current Schools that (despite committed teachers) only seem intent on training kids on how to pass pre designed exam papers. Widget making for a machine that seems less and less in need of said widgets, hence the unemployment figures among the young.
      Any way Ian, I can see I am going to have to watch you! You have completely diverted me from the Hardline Demarche Manifesto writing that I came out here, (in this fag end strewn cold doorway that is quarantine) to tackle.

      Shame on You! Your Country will never forgive you (never mind Vronsky, Albert, Rabb and our cabinboy CameronB!)

    67. Albert Herring says:

      From Demarchy UK. Scary stuff if true.

    68. ianbrotherhood says:

      @Albert Herring-
      Hope you don’t mind, I just copied your latest post here over to ‘The No Future’ thread – deserves to be seen there too.

    69. Albert Herring says:

      Nae bother mate.

    70. Braco says:

      That link was like a flashback to the big bad eighties and the type of shit that I used ‘Care in the community’ to personify. The list of companies being lined up for the profit taking, alone makes the skin crawl.
      Plenty of motivation!

    71. ianbrotherhood says:

      Okay man. I am mainlining Lambrini au-moment, but I take it that the dude in the first link is, more-or-less, transcribed in the third link? 
      Anyway, if so, or not at all, no matter – splendid. Absolutely splendid gear.
      Je suis remplis de Lambrini an aw that…
      God bless ye monsieur, et bonne chance, bonne nuite…quelquechose…
      I am taking this seriously. 

    72. vronsky says:

      Fiddle with the YouTube options for English subtitles

    73. CameronB says:

      It is certainly clear that our democratic system has been captured by the interests of capital and associated concentrations of undemocratic power (corporations and banks). Amongst the effects this has had, has been the homogenisation of main stream political parties and a policy environment that is increasingly neoliberal. As such, it would appear desirable for an independent Scotland to do everything in its power to avoid repeating the mistakes of the British state.

      Although the party political system appears to have failed us, I think political parties are a necessary evil. They are the ideal agents for voicing the policy alternatives the electorate choose between at elections, so can be seen as the engine of democracy. Some might see that as unwarranted praise, but rather than trying to destroy politics, we need to create a system that makes politicians work for us.

      I do not have the experience serving in local government, to be able to outline how best to structure it and its integration with central government. However, I am sure that there are ample experts to perform this task. In developing a system tailored to Scottish needs, attention needs to be given to establish a political wing to support the party system. This would help integrate local and national policies, as well as ensure that government is publicly accessible at the local level. It would also provide an audit-able mechanism for funding political parties and election campaigns.

      This may seem like the perfect way to create a centralised state, but that is where an upper house comes in. We do need one, don’t we? This is also where the demarchy come in, as Scotland’s new upper house could be selected by lottery for set terms. Tasked with scrutinising and passing, but not proposing policy. These policy alternatives would be fed to it from the political parties represented at local government level. As such, the upper house would be responsible for passing bills in to law and would have legal authority over local government. The upper house would also have legal authority over the civil service, both at national and local levels.

      Apologies if my ideas are not fully developed and don’t contain anything that could be considered a constitutional policy. I think we need to get the shape of government sorted though, as well as its scope. I am also aware that there will most probably be gaping holes in my suggestions, which are far from comprehensive. I was also trying to resolve several structural issues in one go, so please be gentle.

      Otherwise, coffee anyone?

    74. Braco says:

      Thanks for those links. They are very thought provoking. How are you feeling? Better I hope.

      We are thinking along similar lines, although I will have no truck with political parties!

      I have drawn out a wee flow diagram, following policy initiation through to final law/policy enactment. This shows all the different chambers of Government and their relationships.

      I have also drawn a wee diagram showing the break down and structure of my Jury Chamber.

      Hopefully I will find a way, with the help of Rev Stu, of posting these shortly (tomorrow?) along with a post describing each chamber of Government and it’s role. I think we can then start seeing where major disagreements might pop up. (Smily)

      It’s funny how this process inevitably leads to thinking very seriously about local Government. It even seems more important in many respects if National Government is to truly represent the community.

      This current disconnect between local and national Government is probably one of the main reasons our current system is so undemocratic. I think some research on how the Swiss Cantons and their micro referenda actually work. I don’t know much about it but what I do know I like.

      That was very interesting CameronB, thanks. I think we may have to advertise for a new ‘Tea Boy’. I hope you didn’t spend too much on the uniform. (smilywink)

    75. Braco says:
      Policy Formation Chamber

      This is a NON Party Chamber

      This will be made up of elected members who are in Politics to change the world. Old fashioned campaigners or single issue people. They will be elected on personal manifestos and will only be allowed to develop and pursue those policies that are within their manifesto.

      Once they have worked up a solid proposal it will be put to the Jury Chamber for a YES/NO decision. As the Jury Chamber is made up of Lay people, this will encourage policy to be written and constructed in an easy to comprehend manner. Something that this system will encourage from the start of policy initiation right through to the enactment of the new law. All Law and Policy should be easily understood by the electorate and general population without the need to first consult a Lawyer/accountant/specialist of some sort.

      Jury Chamber

      This will be a virtual chamber of 1000 jurors per generation. They will serve for a period of 4 years in total. They will be selected by lot.

      They will remain in their everyday environment but connected to Government and given information to be decided on, through secure electronic systems.

      The first and last year of their decision making service will be used as statistical back up only, to the previous and future Generations two year period of actual ‘Hot Seat’ decision making.

      This will allow time to bed themselves in to the work load and work/lifestyle balance, adjustment necessary for optimum decision making during their own two year ‘Hot Seat’ period.

      Only during YES/NO questions concerning Constitutional Change will all Generations of The Jury Chamber be asked to decide.  

      See diagram

      They will be asked to make YES/NO decisions at critical moments in the passage of legislation from the various Chambers of Parliament. ‘Hot Seaters’ will carry the decision. They will approve or reject proposals from the Policy Formation Chamber. If YES policy moves on to the…..

      Governmental Secretariat and Civil Service

      This Chamber will be Non Party Political.

      This is a Chamber of 8 yearly elected political Bureaucrats and permanent civil servants who will form the Government. They will run the Country on a day to day basis but will have NO Policy initiation powers. They will be elected as individuals and will select among themselves the First Minister.

      This Chamber is also responsible for developing the Policies approved by the Jury Chamber from the Policy Formation Chamber (along with the civil service) into concrete and practical proposals for new policy or law which will again be put to the Jury Chamber for a YES/NO decision. If NO then the proposal returns to the Secretariat for more work. If Yes then it moves on to the……

      The Guardians
      This is a Constitutional court that will be responsible to define the Legality, under the current constitution, of the proposals for new policy or Law. They are headed by the Elected Head of State who’s role is to give Democratic oversight of the Guardians. They will be elected over a 10 year cycle but with strict recall rules should they prove incompetent or corrupt.

      Should a policy or Law be deemed in conflict with the constitution then it will be returned to the Jury Chamber with the accompanying analysis. The whole Generational Chamber will then decide YES/NO on the worth of the policy against the change in the Constitution. If No, it returns to the civil service for possible tweaking. If YES then the decision goes to the country through a

      Constitutional Referendum
      The Country Decides the merits of Constitutional Change. This will be done through an electronic system which will keep costs down and encourage the liberal use of Referenda as final arbiter. This system will also be the same as used for my proposals for local government by referenda a la Swiss Cantons.

      If YES, Constitution is changed and new law or policy is enacted.

      This system also has the advantage that the Constitution can stay fluid, with some campaigners quite possibly, only being elected to the Policy Formation Chamber in order to change or adapt the Constitution. This will also mitigate against the worship and deification of a historic Constitutional document (that through unwillingness to change) slowly becomes distant and irrelevant to the populace and their principles. Eventually ruling over the populace rather than protecting it’s principles in their modern context.  America any one?

      Any way that’s my stab at it.

    76. CameronB says:

      @ Braco
      Certainly a more developed effort than my own, though I do see the cross over. I’ll wait until there are a few more comments, before ripping in to it (only kidding). Cheers.

      P.S. Liked your copyright.

    77. Braco says:

      Thanks min. I have another diagram for where it says ‘see diagram’ (weaksmily), but I can’t seem to get it to work. I am hoping Rev Stu will be able to embed the first and then we can work on the second.
      Are you not over optimistic that there will be more comments, to join in with the savaging? Get in there man!
      That  is my own red meat on the counter (nervousmilywink)

    78. Braco says:

      When reading the flow chart, you should start at The Policy Formation Chamber.
      Sorry that really is not clear enough.

    79. Vronsky says:

      I’m horribly impressed – I’m still at the research stage.  I was feeling better, then driving home from work someone rear-ended me full tilt when I was stationary at a roundabout.  Just out of A&E, no great harm done.
      You’ve lightened my task, though.  I think I’ll focus on how we deliver some of this, probably beginning with a campaign to crowd-source the new Scottish constitution, an obvious initial focus, imo.  We should do this whether or not we win the referendum.
      Just a couple of random notes on a hasty read before I start work:
      The proposed legislation from the policy formation chamber should be anonymised: people have a habit of judging sources rather than ideas.
      There needs to be a provision for emergency legislation, although it may in detail be unconstitutional.  I believe the Canadian constitution allows limited enactment of such legislation, giving it a very short sunset clause so that it will be automatically repealed if it cannot be passed through the normal constitutional channels. 

    80. Braco says:

      Sorry to hear about your accident. You need to take care of yourself better now that the future shape of the Nation is dependent (in part at least) on you! (smilywink)

      Seriously though, I am glad to hear no real harm to your health has been done.

      Oh and thanks for the compliment, it is much appreciated, cheers!
      I think you are absolutely right about the anonymization of the Policy Formation Chamber. I had toyed with the idea that once elected, each Individual’s Manifesto Policy must be worked up by Ad hoc  groups of like minded members.

      In that way a policy idea gets tested and added to, as it is being developed for proposal to the Jury Chamber. Maybe that’s where the anonymity can be injected? 
      Very good point about emergency legislation. I had not considered it’s obvious need.

      Perhaps the need for such legislation can be demanded by the Governmental Secretariat (along with a briefing on the ‘problem’ needing solved) and then delivered to the Policy Formation Chamber for proposals.

      This then can follow the usual, but fast tracked, route through to enactment. It would, as you suggest, have a very short sunset clause to give the Guardians enough time to retrospectively assess it’s compatibility with the current Constitution.
      I have a wee diagram showing the phased cycles of the Jury Chamber’s Generational system but I can’t seem to get it to work at the moment, so I will just try to explain it in words.
      The Juror serves for 4 year period. 

      There are three Generations at work during a single 4 year Jury
      Chamber Phase.

      Each Generation Overlaps two years of the Next Generation.

      This will allow for the first year of Jury service in which all their YES/NO decisions will be used as statistical back up only, to the previous Generations experienced 2nd year of ‘Hot Seat’ decision making.
      This dry run first year gives the Juror time to adjust to the work load of decision making and also time to form a decent work/lifestyle balance prior to their actual two years of ‘Hot Seating’
      A similar set up should exist for the last year, where experienced Jurors have a year to re adjust to their previous life. Again all Decisions from this year will be used as statistical back up only, to the less experienced 1st year of ‘Hot Seat’ Decision making by the previous Generation.
      Only when YES/NO Decisions are called for on the need for Constitutional Change and Referendum will the entire intergenerational Jury Chamber be asked to ‘Hot Seat’.
      I had proposed a salary of £25k + pension for the first and last years and £50k per year + pension for the two Years in the ‘Hot Seat’.

      Not sure about these kind of figures but I feel it’s a balance between incentivising the public to really want the chance to serve, but then again, not be too much to actually change the Jurors everyman status and thinking. Tricky.  

    81. CameronB says:

      @ Braco
      That is a lot to take in, especially if you are an amateur like myself. I’ll probably come back to you, bit by bit, if you don’t mind. But I’ll wait for Vronsky before cluttering the page with silly questions. I will ask one now though. Would this not perhaps be a little too radical to expect to come about as a viable form of government by 2016?

    82. Braco says:

      Yes I do think it’s too radical to simply bring in as a new form of Government by ‘big bang’ in 2016.

      I don’t think I can stress enough how important the education of the population in their civil rights and responsibilities, under their written Constitution, would be to the successful running of such a system of Government. The populace would have to instinctively understand their constitution and the different role that each chamber of Government performs. 
      I think the flow chart shows how simple the over all system is to understand though, when thought of as a pathway along which policy/law changes can be influenced and enacted by the general population.
      It would also self regulate simplicity of understanding into it’s law making, policy formation and Constitutional changes. All such changes being written for and being passed (in YES/NO votes) by Laypeople in the form of the Jury Chamber and Constitutional Referenda.
      This will again, through time, add to the easy understanding by the general population of the laws and policies of the land and so in turn create a reinforcing positive cycle. Easy to understand Government run by and for a population that well understands its government and Laws.
      As Vronsky pointed out earlier, I think ensuring that the New Constitution is written by crowd sourcing the general public is probably top priority. If something as important as The Constitution is entrusted to the population and kept out of the hands of the ‘specialists’ and political elites then the principle of developing Government by a similar method will automatically be legitimised further.
      The problem at the minute is that Jury Duty in Scots Law, although still very powerful in the popular public imagination, is in actuality under constant attack and in dramatic decline. With decisions being taken by Judges.

      This, in my opinion, will also have to be fought and reversed to try and regain the legitimacy of the ‘non specialist decision maker’ as key arbiter in society once again. Specialists advise but decisions must be taken by the lay population, rooted in our everyday society

      P.S. We are all amateurs here CameronB. To me that’s the whole point. (smilywink)

    83. CameronB says:

      @ Braco
      You have to get the foundations correct, to build a stable house. Crowd sourcing is definitely an exciting and desirable mechanism for developing the constitution, with enormous creative potential. While opening up the process to the entire online world, it would only be delivered by the current political system. It will take a little time to evolve out of party politics. That might sound a bit utopian or totalitarian, but I mean evolution toward a system which is truly representative.

    84. Albert Herring says:

      I’m finding that too. I’ve mentioned the idea of a revising upper chamber appointed by ballot to quite a few people, and they unanimously think it’s a brilliant idea. However when I suggest extending the idea to government as a whole they say “Nah – too radical – wouldnae work”, etc.
      I suppose people are so used to the current system, they have difficulty thinking outside the box.

    85. CameronB says:

      @ Albert Herring
      I think education is the key. I’m not sure if the structure of our education system is designed to develop free thinking though. If anything, I think it is designed to suppress it. I hope that doesn’t sound too swivel-eyed.

    86. Braco says:

      Yes I think you are correct about peoples attitudes. That is why my proposal is essentially a form of that ‘revising chamber’ which give the Yes or No decision at set points in the processes of Government.

      This simply ensures that the ‘Professional’ and ‘Specialist’ Political class that will inevitably grow around the wielding of Political power are forced to be earthed through a necessity to frame all their desires for change in language and social terms acceptable to a statistically representative sample of the current society.

      Politics will always attract politicians. There is unfortunately no getting away from that. This system is, in its most basic form, just an attempt to keep them on a tight leash and well aware of who is sovereign.

      Having just read  After the watershed  I can really feel the desperate need for a serious plan of how we protect ourselves in an Independent Scotland from the addiction of absolute power that our politicians (especially SLAB politicians) wriggle and squirm their way towards every second of their waking hours.

      All flows from the Constitution, but how to write a constitution that can stay fluid and relevant while still producing the safeguards necessary? That’s what my stab is about.

      If we can solve the system of writing the Constitution with these types of tools then I feel the population may become more and more familiar with the concept and so more and more open to it’s expansion of use.
       Such an optomist! (sadweaksmily)

    87. Albert Herring says:

      Policy Formation ChamberThis is a NON Party Chamber
      This will be made up of elected members who are in Politics to change the world. Old fashioned campaigners or single issue people. They will be elected on personal manifestos and will only be allowed to develop and pursue those policies that are within their manifesto.
      Is this not perhaps a bit restrictive? What if a member of the public has a brilliant idea, but doesn’t want to stand for election to the Policy formation chamber? Could there not be a mechanism whereby he/she could submit the idea for consideration?
      Apparently Iceland has a ‘Ministry of Ideas’. I’ve no idea how it works, but it does sound like an nice idea. (gone a bit mad with the ideas there. 🙂

    88. Braco says:

      you are exactly right! I think the system, to be truly ‘democratic’ must be interconnected down and down and down, into micro local level. I really like the Swiss canton system with it’s micro referenda system that really does actually change things without the continual requirement of explicit permission from central government.

      The only criticism I come across of this local governmental system is that it produces what, to our eyes, looks like right wing policies. To me they just seem like suited policies to the local will.

      Who’s to say what our ‘wing’ will be. ‘Left’, ‘Center’ or ‘Right’ I really am not that bothered, as long as we have a system in play that can in some way effectively reflect the true political forest currently growing and not rely on a Chinese whisper to create an idea first thought of for a society 100 years ago (if you are lucky with Britain’s past record!)

      Public, easy access, to a system of referenda locally which feeds and if necessary, even dominates and over rides the Policy Formation Chamber’s elected representatives raison d’etre, might well be the way forward.


      I think this should be an amendment put to the full Quadrangle and acting Cabin Boy (until such times as his former position is filled and the uniform taken in, or let out, to the satisfaction of its new bearer).    

    89. Braco says:

      Now calling to the FORMAL VOTE,



      Albert Herring,

      Braco (myself)


      CameronB (full voting member and acting cabin boy)

    90. Braco says:

      Also welcoming all associate members, including

      Man in the Jar,


      and all others.
      OK, Ok, seeings as you are here already,

      ianbrotherhood.      (wink)

    91. CameronB says:

      Eh….what? Oh…it has to be Yes! Isn’t it? What are we voting on?

    92. Braco says:

      Too late CameronB,
      that’s one YES!
      welcome to democracy, Quintangle style! (strictcontrolingwink)

    93. Braco says:

      After a rather petty observation by one of our (junior) members, the following clarification has been released.

      Easy public access should be designed into the system. Local referenda should feed and if necessary, dominate and over ride the Policy Formation Chamber’s elected representatives raison d’etre manifesto commitments.


    94. CameronB says:

      Now hold on a minute there. Who said this is a democracy?
      I have no objection in principle, to ensuring easy public access and the promotion of local authority (horrible word but I hope you know what I mean).  Sorry if I am holding the bus up, but I was looking for Vronsky’s thoughts before commenting further. I still need to read through all of your ideas, but I’ve had to take care of the real world. I hope to get down to it this weekend.

    95. Braco says:

      Real World, CameronB?

      Can’t stay!
      Won’t stay!

    96. Albert Herring says:

      Well I’m definitely for YES (what was the question again?) I reckon we’re really getting somewhere with this. The missing bit of the jigsaw, of course, is the position of we of the glorious Quintumverate as guardians of the nation, with statues, special documentaries on BBC4, stores of Islay malt etc, etc.

    97. Braco says:

      The Guardian Chamber is, quite simply, to be Islay.

      Then we of the Quintumverate will have direct access to an adequate selection of malts to lean upon during our reign/deliberations.

      Not sure that amendment requires an official vote though, as we are obviously not, after all, pedants.

    98. Adrian B says:

      Which is why the SNP and other parties are rightly presenting their independence policies, and the Yes Campaign is promoting them.

      Not actually what is happening at all, the ‘Yes’ campaign has outlined that as we are in Europe now, under the Union, then this will continue. As we use Stirling as currency, this would continue. As we are currently a monarchy, then this would continue. These are simple facts as we are not voting on anything else other than having our own Parliament, made up on elected representation deciding all aspects of how a normal country runs itself.

      Unfortunately, the fact that the Yes Campaign are only promoting SNP policies means that those voters who don’t like the SNP or one or more of their policies could be put off from voting yes.

      Again this is incorrect – Yes Scotland are not providing any policies from any political party, they are giving information as to the set up of Scotland after Independence.
      Policies from all parties in Scotland will make up the 2016 election campaigns from all parties. The electorate gets to choose – and that would/ could mean policies put forward to change the Scotland’s relationship with the monarchy, education, house building programs, Scottish NHS funding/improvements.
      You are not wrong about a partys position on certain policies causing them problems getting people to vote in the Referendum. Labour and the Lib Dems are having problems over the ‘bedroom tax’ – many have changed sides here or have stepped back from a ‘No’ vote because of it. 

    99. Adrian B says:

      …….. obviously those of us who already support independence are more than convinced by the ‘blank canvas’ prospect of independence alone, and the chance for Scotland to make its own decisions. But clearly that isn’t enough for undecided voters.
      The undecided voters don’t need to have this policy and that policy rammed down their throats for the next 18 months from either, the ‘Yes’ or ‘No’ side. They will not pay much attention until the last few weeks, so eighteen months out from the Referendum is not the time to start.
      People have their own worries to deal with right now, if they want to get engaged with the issues now, then they can although it’s mainly happening online – as much as Brewer thinks he has much to do with setting the agenda, he only has 20 minutes a night and he dosn’t cover much ground in that time slot.

    100. Jiggsbro says:

      He’s not coming, you know. He’s nothing to gain by trolling Quarantine.

    101. Adrian B says:

      @ Jiggsbro
      I don’t know what you mean jiggsbro. Quarantine is the proper place for OT threads of discussion. Wee smily thing.

    102. douglas clark says:

      Adrian B,
      Norsewarrior is one person with a point of view. By placing your entirely sensible posts in quarantine you have robbed, yes robbed! the other 49,998 readers who might have seen them. It is worth remembering that you too have an audience on the main forums. Massively more people read this forum than reply to it. Hardly anyone knows about quarantine 🙂

    103. ianbrotherhood says:

      I thought I’d nick out for a quick drag seeing as how it’s gone nice and quiet again, but it’s still fucking freezing so I’m away back in.

    104. G H Graham says:

      You guys love beating yourselves up buying that crap newspaper. I told you to stop buying it last week because as soon as Garham came back, he would resort to miserable, peurile comic book rubbish again.
      The sooner you stop buying & reading this paper, the sooner it will disappear from the shelves forever. It serves no useful purpose whatsoever since it is full of lies, propaganda & schoolboy errors. Thus it cannot be relied upon for anything except to mop up cat vomit.

    105. Rod Mac says:

      Eh Duncan ,you managed to throw in a nice negative there on Iceland and Ireland eh?
      I do admire though how you temper your langage here in comparison to Scotsman threads.
      The Rev might be tolerant of you ,but it is not only Hen Broon that rumbled you.

    106. Norsewarrior says:

      “Eh Duncan ,you managed to throw in a nice negative there on Iceland and Ireland eh?”

      I’ve no idea who Duncan is or why on earth you’re calling me that name, but I can assure you it isn’t my name. And, for the second time, how exactly is pointing out that neither Iceland or Ireland are good comparisons for an independent Scotland a ‘negative’ against independence, when I’ve quite clearly suggested a better comparison instead?! 

      “The Rev might be tolerant of you ,but it is not only Hen Broon that rumbled you.”

      I’d imagine the Rev may not be so tolerant of you, given the fact that he has consistently asked people to stop making up unsubstantiated accusations against others on here and that he said yesterday that his patience with the likes of you had reached its breaking point. Careful.

    107. Norsewarrior says:

      “Events/news is what matters and most people discovering WoS will read Rev’s articles and that’s it. Job done. Very few will trawl though the comments and even fewer will post”

      You’re right of course, the comments on here are very unlikely to sway anyone one way or the other, as you say its the events and news, including the excellent articles on this site, that can do that. 

      But let’s imagine you’re an undecided voter who isn’t sure about voting yes because you don’t particularly like the SNP. You go to a site such as this to get a better idea about independence and happen to glance through the comments and notice non-SNP supporters such as myself getting attacked, abused and discredited with revolting accusations such as being a ‘holocaust denier’ by others. 

      Even if there’s only a very slight chance that such comments will sway that person towards voting no, we should do everything we can to dissuade and stand up to the people making them. This referendum is likely to be very close, I don’t want to risk losing even one vote by ignoring such comments and allowing them to stand unchallenged.

    108. Jiggsbro says:

      Are you honestly still attempting to argue that the phrase ‘too poor, too wee’ in relation to Scotland doesn’t refer to independence?!
      No. I’m pointing out the simple fact that it doesn’t necessarily refer to independence, as you’d probably know if you had any genuine interest. It is, and has been, used to refer to all manner of things that Scotland isn’t supposed to be capable of. But you assumed independence, assumed that you were being attacked, assumed it was because you’re not an SNP fanatic…you seem so determined to be upset at being hounded by those dastardly SNP fanatics that you’ve resorted to taking offence at your own assumptions. Perhaps if you actually engaged with the issues, rather than responding to dog whistles, you’d be a little more convincing.

    109. Norsewarrior says:

      “I’m pointing out the simple fact that it doesn’t necessarily refer to independence…But you assumed independence, assumed that you were being attacked, assumed it was because you’re not an SNP fanatic”

      In the context of the comment we are discussing it most certainly did refer to independence, as it does virtually every time it is used. Enter “too poor, too wee, too stupid” on Google and virtually every result will be in reference to independence, including even in a Scottish Affairs Committee Parliamentary report!

      And, as the poster who made that comment, ‘Morag’, has previously attempted to discredit me as a ‘troll’ and ‘unionist’ on several occasions purely because I don’t support the SNP, it was a natural assumption to make that she was attempting to do so again.

    110. pmcrek says:

      As you will be hopefully aware by double checking my comment, it was not addressed to you or any other comment here specifically but rather addresses the most prevalent view expressed by the media in general on the financial crisis with respect to independence. I am merely sharing what ammunition I have.

    111. velofello says:

      @ Rev Stu;I found Morag’s little quip  “Too big, too poor, too stupid” quite witty, and that would have been the end of it among reasonable people. Norsewarrior however seized upon her quip as a means to divert the exchange of views of an excellent subject, as presented by you, on employment and economic growth. He has similarly responded to comments from other readers here.
      In summary, for me he has ruined  the potential of a good discussion on this subject matter and potential exchanges of useful information by readers with his faux indignation.
      My gut reaction to this behaviour from him/her is that i will read and enjoy your articles, but at the first sight of a Norsewarrior comment i’ll know to switch to some other read.
      If you have the means to park Norsewarrior and his debaters to some parallel file where they can “ding dong” to their heart’s content I’d much appreciate as that would allow worthwhile and the useful exchange of knowledge here to resume.
      This does read a bit sniffy but he does come across as a spoiler.

    112. Norsewarrior says:

      “Again, it’s your assumption that it’s because you don’t support the SNP”

      Why else would an SNP supporter attack, abuse and attempt to discredit an independence supporter such as myself? The fact that such attacks invariably come after I’ve expressed disagreement or criticism of the SNP on a particular point make blatantly clear that the only reason I’m being attacked is because I’m not following the SNP’s party line on independence. 

      “In fact, stop pretending that disagreeing with you is attacking you”

      I’ve never made any such claim, that is a lie. For example, I haven’t suggested that you are ‘attacking’ me for disagreeing with me on the ‘too poor’ comment have I?

      Attacking me is calling me a ‘troll’ and a ‘unionist’ and a ‘holocaust denier’ with no evidence whatsoever to back up any of those claims, nowhere have I ever suggested that anyone who disagrees with me is ‘attacking’ me. 

      You really aren’t having a good day with your attempted arguments and points. I’ll refrain from engaging in debate with you for the rest of the day and leave you to reflect on that.

    113. Norsewarrior says:

      “I found Morag’s little quip  ”Too big, too poor, too stupid” quite witty, and that would have been the end of it among reasonable people. Norsewarrior however seized upon her quip as a means to divert the exchange of views”

      Actually, I’d suggest that anyone who views my response to Morag’s post at 1.26pm will see it as a perfectly reasonable and fair response. 
      You’ll find that it was actually ‘jiggsbro’ who seized upon my response and then spent the next few hours pointlessly attempting to argue that ‘too poor, too wee, too stupid’ doesn’t refer to independence who has ruined the discussion.
      Direct your criticism at him.

    114. Dal Riata says:

      Yawn! Christ, man/woman, geez peace! Almost every time you post here you cause animosity. What’s the matter with you? When you’ve made a point about something you don’t have to repeat it ad nauseum … which is annoying, to say the least.
      When you go into all kinds of semantics and pedantry, it appears that you want to be deliberately argumentative. Give it a rest. Acknowledge differences. Say what you have to say…and then try saying something else! 

    115. Morag says:

      Just saying, a propos of nothing in particular.

    116. muttley79 says:

      The problem I have is that regardless of the subject of the thread, Norsewarrior almost always diverts it to same subject.  He/she is always attacking the SNP.  Why is that?  Why would someone who genuinely supports independence attack the SNP so much, while ignoring the No campaign, and the parties in it?  It just does not make any sense to me.  I would estimate that 90% of his/her posts attack the SNP.  Why if you really wanted a Yes vote, would you spend all that time attacking the largest party in the Yes campaign, and also the one whose success ensured a referendum in the first place?  Nobody says you have to support the SNP, but why do you have to be so negative about them all the time?  

    117. Erchie says:

      It is fair to say that Norsewarriors posts could never be confused with a ray of sunshine, at the very least

    118. McHaggis says:

      Have to admit Norse does a fine job here. It has found a wee niche. A site where there are actually several people willing to give it the benefit of the doubt, and unfortunately that includes the Rev.
      Cannot believe how niaive some of you are. The evidence of what Norse is can be easily found by googling a few newspaper forums for its numerous usernames.
      I did post several warnings when it first appeared. I tend to now just skip the comments altogether as soon as it appears, which is a shame, but I cannot be bothered separating the wheat fom the repeated ad nauseum chaffe.
      On this particular forum I’m amazed to have to award it a reasonably high score of 7 on the trollometer.
      Rev, can I have my donation back? I refuse to fund this idiots soapbox. I actually thought you were a bit more aware of the common trolls which seek to inhabit independence forums.
      norse, don’t bother replying.

    119. Seasick Dave says:

      Aren’t we very lucky to have NW on our side?
      I have never known such devotion to a cause.

    120. Jiggsbro says:

      other’s replies seriously leads me to believe that they have problems with social interactions and poor social skills
      If that’s aimed at me, you might want to consider the wisdom of attempting diagnosis on the internet. I have no problems with social interactions. I just sometimes can’t resist the temptation to poke the troll with a pointy stick. A bad habit, but it usually serves – as it did here – to confirm that they are, indeed, a troll (cf. his ‘nothing to do with me’, “You’ll find that it was actually ‘jiggsbro’” nonsense; classic troll behaviour).
      Feel free to skip comments you’re not interested in. I do. And by skipping them, you’re less likely to be tempted to try labelling posters who just might be better qualified than you to assign such labels. I consider the labelling of people on the basis of minimal evidence, particularly on the internet, to be an example of poor social skills. You may disagree.

    121. McHaggis says:

      Not annoyed at all.
      but like I said after a long time reading its pish on Scotsman comments, I defo dont want to actually fund a forum for it to spout more pish.
      the only thing I am actually is gobsmacked that the Rev has threatened to ban folks like me for pointing this out. NW gets 5 bonus points on the trollometer for that alone.

    122. Rev. Stuart Campbell says:

      ALL RIGHT.


      I’ve just spent the last 25 minutes tediously and painstakingly going through pages of comments moving them all in here. Do you feel that’s a valuable use of my time, folks? Do you think it moves the independence debate on any? Do you think it gets us any closer to our goal? Do you think it’s the most constructive thing I could have been doing this afternoon? Do you think it motivates me to write more posts that’ll then descend immediately into this sort of hair-tearing, soul-destroying playground shit?

      If so, please keep doing it.

      I don’t know how many more times I have to say this. If you think someone is trolling, RESPONDING TO THEM IS WHAT THEY WANT. Ignore a troll and they’ll go away. Rise to their bait and they’ll plague you forever.

      I banned Grahamski today because I decided FOR MYSELF that he’d had enough chances to show he was debating genuinely. I had a pre-formed opinion of him from elsewhere, but I gave him yards and yards of rope just to be sure, because kneejerk censorship of all dissent is the other side’s cowardly way, not ours.

      If Norsewarrior’s intent is to disrupt, then by God you’ve all played into his hands. But I’ve seen remarkably little evidence of that. If making the point that the SNP != the entire independence movement is what he’s trying to do, then good, because the SNP is NOT the entire independence movement and we’ve spent much of the last six months trying to tell people that.

      There’s a reason people like Grahamski say “YeSNP”, a reason why John Mann ranted on all day yesterday about “SNP smear campaigns” and “SNP trolls” – it’s because they want people to see Yes Scotland as an SNP front, because popular as the SNP is, it doesn’t have enough support to win the referendum by itself if we let it become a party-political vote.

      Surrounding someone with a howling mob when they deviate from the SNP line is doing Grahamski and John Mann’s work for them far more effectively than they can.

      Since I’ve said all this stuff half-a-dozen times before to apparently deaf ears, let me be crystal-clear: the next person who moans about Norsewarrior being a troll, or indeed jumps on any other poster saying “Oh, they’re really Commenter X from Site Y” without some damn good evidence as to why gets banned, no more warnings. And the next ten after them probably do as well, because I AM SICK OF IT.

      If you really must discuss it, and for the love of Tiny Wee Baby Jesus I wish you wouldn’t, discuss it in this thread. If I see it anywhere else, you’re toast. No arguing, no negotiation, no refunds. My pub, my rules.

      I haven’t been able to face writing anything else today because every time I look at the comments I want to shut the whole site down and slit my wrists. Great work, everyone. Pats on the back all round.

      But I’d rather give up entirely than turn this into another Newsnet Scotland-style heavily-censored pain in the arse where I have to spend all damn day pre-moderating comments instead of writing stuff. If I’d wanted to be a forum administrator I’d have set up a forum.

      I thought we were adults here. I thought that after the first four or five times people might listen. I seem to have been wrong. But really, truly, seriously, everyone and anyone: don’t make me fucking well say this again.

    123. McHaggis says:

      Where do i get my money back?
      you are blind to the many, many long term independence contributors to a clutch of other forums who know this twat. I am one of that group.
      i warned on its first appearance its whole raison detre was to disrupt through subtelty.
      it knows, as you should too, that it will always get someone to rise to its bait. There are too many kind hearted folks or those who just dont know it. T suggest everyone just ignore it displays a depth of niaivity i never thought id see in you. I said at the outset every thread it invades would run to many more comments than others… Is that true?
      I aint looking for proof for you Rev, theres plenty glaring all over other forums, and lets face it, the ruination of every thread it has infested here. And sorry, but dont you DARE blame folks like me for feeding it etc… Thats just bullshit. NW is the problem, not the dozens of others who call it a troll.
      i also couldnt care less for your anger… You’ve been well and truly suckered mate.
      dont feed the troll,
      maybe its not a troll,
      repeat forever until thread is wrecked.
      delete troll
      thread continues as normal

    124. Rev. Stuart Campbell says:

      “i also couldnt care less for your anger… You’ve been well and truly suckered mate.”

      As the great Ivor Cutler once put it to a heckler: I don’t see any chains holding you down.

      I delete trolls as and when I, not you, decide that they’re a troll. If you don’t like it, feel free to go and start your own website.

    125. Jiggsbro says:

      I don’t want my money back (it’s doing good work) and I’d like to avoid being banned. So I’ll try to resist the temptation to “moan about Norsewarrior being a troll”. But he walks, looks and quacks like a troll and a troll would love your response. Just saying, like.

    126. Rev. Stuart Campbell says:

      Say what you like, as long as you keep it in this thread. To reiterate: I’ve banned several people I thought were trolling. I will absolutely NOT be nagged and bullied into letting a howling lynch-mob make that decision for me, especially when I’ve said exactly that several times already.

    127. Rev. Stuart Campbell says:

      Oh, and by the way, I’ve added a link to this page in the blogroll, in the Zany Comedy Relief section, so there’s no excuse for people not going straight here because they can’t find it.

    128. Caroline Corfield says:

      I don’t think they’re a troll I think they have poor social skills, they obsess over detail and semantics, don’t realise they could give offence but take offence and imagine slights. I think they should be cut some slack, people with ASD and other conditions which result in poor social skills still deserve a place in the debate, they’re still part of Scottish society. They might just need a quiet word in private. And the troll/not troll debate is boring, will stop people reading the comments and so will make them miss out on important supplementary information and new links.

    129. McHaggis says:

      You banned Grahamski?
      hes not even a troll, hes just a unionist dicksplash whose actual beliefs are so incredulous to make him a laughing stock.
      trolling is a much finer art form than grahamskis 2 brain cells could ever conceive of being.
      strolling into a caravan forum and announcing that all caravans should be banned from the road is the equivalent of what Grahamski does, and it is miles away from any form of trolling i have seen defined. NW creeps in, with his views that caravanning is great, but accompanied eventually with a subtle subtext to generate first debate, then hostility while it sits back and laughs as the regulars begin to argue amongst themselves.
      of course its your house, far be it from me to suggest otherwise, but you’ve atually started threaening to ban your honest contributors on the back of NW? Jeezo, I have to hand it to you in terms of shitting in your own nest.
      also, you havent answered how I get my money back. I will not fund a forum for NW to be tacitly encouraged to contribute.

    130. McHaggis says:

      Caroline, dear Caroline…
      I do despair that you are trying to rationalise his actions. He does it for shitz n gigglez.

    131. Adrian B says:

      It seems all the best people hang out in Quarantine these days! (wee smiley thing)

    132. Rev. Stuart Campbell says:

      “but you’ve atually started threaening to ban your honest contributors on the back of NW?”

      Yes, because right now you’re annoying me a hell of a lot more than he is.

      “also, you havent answered how I get my money back”

      You don’t. You contributed to the running of a website. The website is still running and you’re still free to read it, and to post to it if you obey the same rules as everyone else. No contract has been breached.

    133. Rev. Stuart Campbell says:

      “And the troll/not troll debate is boring, will stop people reading the comments and so will make them miss out on important supplementary information and new links.”

      Precisely. Nobody – not one single human being on Earth – wants to read screeds and screeds of “He said/she said” whingeing between a couple of internet pseudonyms. Nobody cares.

    134. a supporter says:

      Go on yourself Jiggsboro, you are doing a grand job. While Norsie, as he’s known in many locations elsewhere, is distracted by you he cannot write his usual drivel.

    135. Derick says:

      Norsewarrior does remind me rather of AM/AM2, and the two interchangeable and relentless posters on the Herald forums.  In my view these are paid agents, or more likely one agent, nothing more, nothing less. 
      I don’t respond to his comments, and I don’t (apart from here say Troll). Well not much. 
      But that is what I think. AM2 actually referred to his actions a ‘psyops’ when pretending to flounce off.

      And I don’t think it’s lack of social skills 

      This website, and blogs/social media generally, are the one area that the Unionist establishment can’t control. Do you really think they would just ignore that, and say ‘on you go boys’. I think not

    136. a supporter says:

      Rev Stu
      I made a comment on the other site re Norsie before I read your threat so please don’t ban me for that. But McHaggis is right and you are wrong. You by supporting the troll’s right to ‘free’ speech are driving away genuine supporters of the YES campaign. Can’t you see that that is what Norsewarrior wants? There are more ways than one of closing down a web site.
      Norse warrior’s writing style is so obvious that the minute he appears on a site either under that name or one of the many others he uses people immediately know it is him; I am surprised that you can’t see it too. Maybe you should get out to other sites more often. Anyway the moment he appeared on Wings many of us knew immediately it was the troll and warned you. And maybe you should have listened to us instead of getting on your high horse about who decides what on this web site. We know it is yours, and a very good one too, but sometimes you can be a bit over sensitive about criticism.

    137. Heather McLean says:

      “Norsewarrior says:
      18 April, 2013 at 4:50 pm

      Anyway this argument is pointless ”
      Thats about the ONLY sensible thing Norsewarrior has said on this thread so far!!
      I’m totally fed up of the bickering between Norsewarrior and anyone who will engage with him. Just scrolling down this thread, I reckon quite a few people have been so fed up because of this that they have left the site! Very disappointing.

    138. Rev. Stuart Campbell says:

      “You by supporting the troll’s right to ‘free’ speech are driving away genuine supporters of the YES campaign.”

      I’m not driving anyone away. I made it ABUNDANTLY plain what was and wasn’t acceptable, and if people who’ve been repeatedly told the rules choose to arrogantly and rudely flout them, they should expect to be admonished.

    139. Jiggsbro says:

      Norsewarrior will troll. It’s in his nature. And people will respond, because it’s the internet and that’s it’s nature. People don’t always respond well to provocation and the nature of the internet tends to lead them to respond less well than they would in real life. People will argue about things that seem irrelevant to those not involved, because that’s the nature of anonymous, asynchronous, remote communication. None of those things should happen, it would be lovely if they didn’t happen, but there is no functioning internet forum where they don’t happen. It’s human nature combined with internet nature. I’ve contributed to many forums over many years. I’ve set up and run a few. And they all had these problems to a greater or lesser extent.
      Some trolls, like grahamski, are obvious. Some are not. Some are subtle and insidious. Long and bitter experience tells me that the best way to identify the subtle and insidious troll is to trust the wisdom of the crowd. We don’t tell you that norsewarrior is a troll because we’re trying to usurp your authority or make decisions that are rightly yours. We tell you because we know, because some of us have spent nearly two decades getting to know them and their tactics, and because we want you to make decisions that protect and preserve this site. At the moment, from our point of view, you’re hitting out at the people who are trying to alert you to a problem, while rewarding the cause of the problem with just the sort of reaction he enjoys.
      I apologise if any of that appears patronising; it certainly isn’t intended to be. But I don’t think I’m alone in being astonished that you do not recognise norsewarrior for what he is. Yes, he would cause less aggravation if no one responded to him. But he’d cause none at all if he weren’t here. And aggravation is why he’s here.

    140. Seasick Dave says:

      I think that you have handled this very badly.

    141. Marion says:

      Can we please just ignore the trolls that we all know disrupt the threads on all the pro indy sites?  All of us who follow the debate on other sites recognise them and it must give them great joy to see us arguing among ourselves.  Stay positive and ignore the trolls.

    142. Derick says:

      Don’t actually think Grahamski is a troll.  A fanatical tribal labourite, but genuine with it. 
      West Midlands/OBE/Norsewarrior/AM/Yeah etc etc purely is tho

    143. McHaggis says:

      have you ever considered how I knew – in its very first contribution – that NW was a troll? Do you think i just sprang out with this on a whim? Do you think I just decided at random to pick on some innocent contributor and singled them out? Was I alone when I did this?
      Do I or have I asked or noted that ANY other contributor to your forums is a troll?
      Did I ever ask in its recent outings for it to be deleted?
      Tonight i did because I was simply tired of seeing it destroy the thread – again.
      Read back to its very first thread and tell me the warnings I posted there about how it acts and what it does are not now completely true?
      You see, I know NW is a troll because it has trolled more forums than I care to remember. It is not a nonSNP supporting fan of independence, thats just the veneer, and the hook. I could make up a NW post right now and you would not be able to tell us apart, its posting strategy is so obvious. That is why we all KNOW its former names.
      If you found a small flat billed bird that loved to swim on water and made quacking noises, and then were told by two dozen people what it was, would you REALLY need to wait until it announces its a fucking duck?
      Your back is up on this and from experience, I know you wont now accept the contrary view.
      Keep the cash but there wont be any more coming from me while NW is given support to post.
      Electing to give ‘free speech’ to a widely known troll is probably the second daftest thing you’ve ever done on these forums. You don’t seem to be eliciting a great deal of support for your position and I am pretty sure NW is sitting back with spittle running down its chin thinking… “my work here is only just beginning”.

    144. Rev. Stuart Campbell says:

      “have you ever considered how I knew – in its very first contribution – that NW was a troll? Do you think i just sprang out with this on a whim? Do you think I just decided at random to pick on some innocent contributor and singled them out? Was I alone when I did this?”

      I don’t give a shit. I judge people on what they post here, not anywhere else. I’m getting extremely tired of the implication that I’m a halfwit.

    145. sneddon says:

      ‘Electing to give ‘free speech’ to a widely known troll is probably the second daftest thing you’ve ever done on these forums.’  

      So we should not give NW an opportunity to ‘hang himself’  You and others don’t like him.  Fine but if he’s not broken the sites rules just his style is irritating as hell just ignore him.  If you think he’s a troll why the fuss. Just ignore him.  If he was in the pub you’d ignore him.  So deep breath and exhale………..  everyone.

    146. Rev. Stuart Campbell says:

      “If you found a small flat billed bird that loved to swim on water and made quacking noises, and then were told by two dozen people what it was, would you REALLY need to wait until it announces its a fucking duck?”

      Try to get this through your skull: I’ve read his posts and I see no bill and hear no quacking. When I do, I’ll act accordingly. Until then, I need no advice on how to do my job, thanks.

    147. Juteman says:

      I think NW is a troll as well. I told him i wouldn’t comment on any of his posts again, and i haven’t. Easy peasy.

    148. Scaraben says:

      I reckon that the Rev Stu is right in this. It does not look good to a new visitor to this site if they see someone being slagged off as a troll over what the aforesaid new visitor will see as a reasonable comment.
      Comments should be responded to on the basis of what they say, and not on the basis of reading between the lines on the assumption that the author is a troll and that there must be some hidden meaning; otherwise they should be ignored.
      Personally, I was getting tired of all the accusations of trolldom; equally I am glad to see Grahamski get the boot as he was rather tedious.

    149. McHaggis says:

      “I’m getting extremely tired of the implication that I’m a halfwit.”
      come on Rev, put the dummy back in…
      You are stubborn, and on some occasions over-defensive but nowhere is there any implication of your levels of intelligence.
      Juteman, I too have never responded to NW since I told him the same thing ages ago… but you see, I came here earlier to read Rev’s usual high quality pieces and to read the equally high quality debate. What did I find? A thread of ‘he said, it said’ with the starring role of NW – again.
      Rev can be as pissed off at me and others as he likes… it does not take away from the fact that NW is a troll and his method of attack is subtle disruption. The fact Rev can’t see the quacking isn’t my fault though – its not what NW says its the very fact we know he’s taking the piss. The Scotsman used to (dunno if it still has) a 1000 comment limit. Guess what happened when good old NW came online?
      Hey, I’m done here. Flogging dead horses is not my thing.
      Last word though Rev is, don’t say I didn’t try to warn you.

    150. Jeannie says:

      Frustrating though it is, I honestly think it’s best all-round not to engage with them.  We’re lucky on this site that we really don’t get all that much disruption, if we’re honest.  But I suspect it’s something we’ll always have to deal with and therefore need to find a way of doing so that keeps our collective blood pressure at a healthy level.

    151. ianbrotherhood says:

      It’s disheartening to read the above, but we’d best take whatever lessons we can from it all ‘cos it’s gonny get a lot hairier down the line. Ups and downs an’ aw that…the day the appeal target was reached was a high point…today’s a low…tomorrow we’re back on the up.
      So it goes.
      It’s truly horrible to see folk arguing like this, especially when we were all drawn here for similar reasons, and most share a common aim. Only consolation I take from it is that this site is attracting attention (be it legal threats, experienced ‘T’s or whatever else) because it’s hurting those who would deny us this chance to control our own lives. 
      ‘T’s are inherently dishonest and if we know nothing else, we know this – liars, even the very clever ones, are always found out. Eventually.

    152. Morag says:

      Someone earlier gave NW 7/10 for trolling.  I think he deserves a lot more than that.  This was finestkind stuff.  If he really has managed to convince RevStu that he’s for real, that’s worth 10/10 in my book.

      I knew who he was immediately too, although I hadn’t met the Norsewarrior moniker before.  I don’t mean all the speculation about it possibly being this or that real-life person, I have no idea about that and care less, I mean the troll persona, whatever it calls itself.  The use of language and the passive-aggressive posting style is absolutely distinctive.  I’ve seen it on the Hootsmon stirring up trouble more often than I care to remember.

      It’s RevStu’s site and he’s in charge.  But sometimes a thousand lemmings aren’t all wrong, and the eyepopping number of people here who had Norsewarrior’s number the minute he showed up aren’t wrong.

      It would be lovely if everyone would simply ignore him.  But it ain’t gonna happen.  And even if it did, he’d probably just keep on posting his plaintive, spiteful little posts again and again anyway.  This is going to keep happening, and if RevStu is going to keep protecting him until he gives himself away, it’ll go on forever, because this guy is good.

      If it comes down to a choice between losing a couple of dozen regular, honest posters and losing a notorious, widely-recognised disruptive troll, I know which I’d choose.

    153. G H Graham says:

      Christ, bloody grow up all of you.

    154. Rev. Stuart Campbell says:

      “Someone earlier gave NW 7/10 for trolling. I think he deserves a lot more than that. This was finestkind stuff. If he really has managed to convince RevStu that he’s for real, that’s worth 10/10 in my book.”

      I haven’t said I’m convinced. I’ve asked, with increasing exasperation and decreasing patience, that people shut the fuck up from screaming “TROLL! TROLL!” and leave me to judge it, rather than clogging up a dozen threads with a kneejerk witch-hunt which I’ve made it SPECTACULARLY PLAIN I’m not going to participate in. All people have achieved is to obscure whatever the truth is by rendering entire threads too fucking tedious to actually read.

    155. Morag says:

      I know you’ve asked that, but it may be that you’re asking the impossible.  This style of trolling is subtle, and tends to generate runaway responses.  It’s particularly effective in that some people usually take it at face value and become engaged with the passive-aggressive posts in good faith.  That in itself is a victory for the troll, because even without anyone wittingly feeding it, it gets a very good meal, and the thread is effectively taken over anyway.

      But then others, who know very well who this guy is and how he operates, and who have been obeying the instruction not to respond, can’t hold back any longer when they see the morass the innocent responders are being drawn into.  They try to explain what’s going on, and warn the unwary, and there you have an explosive situation.

      Someone has certainly achieved a result of “rendering entire threads too fucking tedious to actually read.”  Now, would that be the person whose objective was to achieve exactly that?  I rather think so.

      Damn, he’s good.  I have to hand it to him.  I just hope he won’t succeed in destroying Wings, after we all pulled together to get the funding.

    156. Morag says:

      All people have achieved is to obscure whatever the truth is by rendering entire threads too fucking tedious to actually read.
      Actually, that bears repeating.  That effect isn’t “obscuring the truth”.  That is the truth.  That is what he sets out to do, and he is achieving it, in spades.  The proof of the nature of the beast is in the responses he attracts, because the entire point of the exercise is to attract these responses.

      Any attempt to isolate Norsewarrior’s posts and look for signs of trollishness is spectacularly missing the point.  The posts don’t exist in isolation.  The posts in themselves are almost irrelevant.  The objective of the posts is to generate the reaction that has been generated.  The fact that he has succeeded is the proof in itself.

      It’s pissing into the wind to say, don’t react.  This guy isn’t Grahamski.  This is professional stuff, and it’s being done with great skill.  Blaming people for responding, rather than blaming the one who is expertly fishing for the response, is akin to blaming the victims of the con artist rather than the con artist himself.

    157. Adrian B says:

      If there was a ‘like’ button available for Morag’s last two comment I would have used it. Best description yet in my mind.
      I try to avoid commenting on anything that NW says , but sometimes after others have tried reason and got nowhere. I have jumped in with a polite actually this is how it is post in response. It works for a short time, then we are right back at square one about the SNP isn’t doing this or must do that remarks in the second half of NW’s comment.
      NW has a tendency to post three comments in quick succession, often late afternoon. That tactic has divisive affect on the thread that lasts for a couple of hours at least.
      NW avoids posting comments in quarantine, better to be on the second or third story – its a trolls favourite starting point, but NW will often stay there, venturing perhaps onto the front page towards the end of the thread.
      I will leave it there – only commented to put my thoughts on the record. Keep up the good work.

    158. Derick says:

      “This is professional stuff, and it’s being done with great skill.”

    159. Captain Caveman says:

      Got to be brutally honest here Stu, I too suspect NW is a troll flying under a false flag.

    160. Silverytay says:

      It really saddens me to see people on this site fighting like rats in a sack .
      People need to remember that it is Stu,s site and we have to play by his rules even though I dont always agree with what he decides .
      What I have seen over the last couple of days is straight out of the School playground ‘ I should know I monitor the 5 & 6 year olds every playtime & lunchtime .’ it is a question of he said , she said .
      Most of us here have drifted over to Wings due to Newsnet imposing draconian measures in monitoring their site .  We should all ask ourselves ‘ do we really want the Rev going down the same road .
      We are within sight of the greatest prize in Scotland,s history since 1314 ‘ let us not lose sight of this .
      What I have seen & read over the last few day’s makes me wonder if we are ready to build a new vibrant ‘ dynamic ‘ inclusive Scotland .
      The NO Scotland campaign is in disarray over Taylorgate ‘ lets not give them succor by falling out amongst ourselves . 

    161. Morag says:

      The trouble is, Stu is expecting the victims of a master manipulator simply to stop being manipulated.  Including the ones who have no idea they are interacting with a professional shit-stirrer.  I don’t think it’s achievable.  Even if 80% of the regular posters do as Stu wants, Norsewarrior will achieve his aims with the remaining 20% – and in so doing, rile up a proportion of the 80% to join in too.

      I thought Stu was just waiting for it to be obvious who and what Norsewarrior is.  Because he’s right, this method of trolling is such that innocent newbies can become victims.  A newbie whose first few posts resemble the posts of the concern troll can be subject to unwarranted attack and be banned unjustly.  I’ve seen it happen on homoeopathy forums.  After we’ve been on there a few times, an innocent newbie coming in with “how can I tell if my homoeopathic pharmacy is reliable?” is likely to be banned on sight!  Concern trolls see such bannings as major victories.  So it makes sense to let it run for a bit to be sure.

      However, this has gone on long enough for everyone who knows what this guy is up to to be under no illusions.  I don’t want to call Stu naive because he’s a big boy and he can look after himself.  However, we all have different experiences, and if you haven’t met this one before it can blindside you.  I’m concerned that he’s mad and frustrated and even talking about shutting down the site, and he’s blaming the people who responded to the troll.

      This has been and is the work of a consummate professional, and he is currently right on course to achieve his aim, because he has managed to hoodwink Stu into blaming his catspaws.

    162. Rev. Stuart Campbell says:

      “The trouble is, Stu is expecting the victims of a master manipulator simply to stop being manipulated. Including the ones who have no idea they are interacting with a professional shit-stirrer. I don’t think it’s achievable.”

      Trust me – one way or another it’s achievable, and it WILL be achieved.

    163. ianbrotherhood says:

      NW has avoided Taylorgate entirely – he knows it’s utterly toxic to the online persona he’s created here. He took a wee holiday as soon as the subject arose, and only came back when a dodgy-donation-free discussion was underway.
      It’s simply not credible that anyone with an interest in the referendum campaign – on either side or none – can fail to be concerned about what’s happening vis-a-vis BT funding. This morning’s (potentially) watershed GMS underlines how important these developments are.
      NW’s constant refrain has been about ‘the undecided’, how they have to be reached outwith the SNP’s agenda. Well, BT is reaching them right now, via the BBC, on prime-time radio – hapless Lamont is now entangled in a possible cover-up on the eve of her party conference. If this doesn’t bolster NW’s purported ambition for the independence debate he wants to see, what could?
      His silence on this matter is as damning as his perpetual sidetracking of everything else.
      Rev has made it pretty clear that this space can be used. So let’s use it to clear this mess up once and for all –
      NW, you’re reading this. You are cordially invited to visit Quarantine and give us your thoughts on Taylorgate.
      I’m not ‘demanding’ anything. I’m not asking any questions. I’m simply requesting that, as a frequent contributor to this site, and one who is clearly abreast of unfolding news, you state your position on Ian Taylor’s donation, BT’s handling of it, and Lamont’s performance this morning.
      I’m sure many of us are keen to hear your take on this stuff. So, can you please have a go at it sometime today?

    164. a supporter says:

      I visit many different English and Scottish newspaper and blog sites concerning Independence and when I do I invariably find Norsewarrior or one of its alternates beavering away on at least one of them. And I do mean beavering because it produces long winded post after post after post in quick succession for hours on end which suggests to me it is not one person but a group working in shifts, using the same computer and sets of prepared scripts which they copy and tailor to the immediate thread in hand. (And remember … “Just because I’m paranoid doesn’t mean there isn’t someone stalking me”)
      It isn’t the mastermind you think it is because it has little effect on sites like the Telegraph, Guardian, Scotsman et al. its posts are so transparent that everyone knows who it is and newcomers who engage are warned immediately about it. The general reaction to it is … ignore it, do not engage in debate with it, if you do post to it make it derogatory, laugh at it, and insult it. And the moderators on those sites don’t seem to care much about people doing that.
      It has had a large effect on this site simply because there are a fair number of naive people who come to this site who have engaged with it because they are part of a group who want Independence but claim they are not Nationalists, nor even nationalists, and think we should be ‘nice’ about how we go about gaining it, forgetting that the people we are up against are activists who have been in the muddy trenches of political warfare for donkeys years and will use every dirty trick in the book to gain an advantage and to preserve their position. Remember that most of them are fighting for their ambitions and future job prospects. 
      And Ian Brotherhood, it will be interesting to see if it takes up your challenge about Taylorgate.

    165. ianbrotherhood says:

      Well, 3.5 hours later…’no answer’ came the reply, and I haven’t seen him crop up on any other threads. 
      He won’t come here. He daren’t.

    166. ianbrotherhood says:

      Have to go out for a while, and am very much looking forward to seeing NW’s comments on Taylorgate later this evening.
      In the meantime, if he crops up on any other thread, would y’all do me a big one by referring him here before he gets bogged down in other exchanges? (Y’know, just in case he hasn’t been following things closely and isn’t aware of what’s what.)
      Ta ever so much comrades…

    167. DMW42 says:

      Thought I’d share this nugget with the ‘howf drinkers. 
      Like many, I’ve been a bit gobsmacked by the BBC’s interviews with Johannie and Anas. Imagine my surprise therefore when I got home tonight to find this email from the Editorial Complaints Unit in my inbox.
      “Thank you for your email.  I’m sorry you’re dissatisfied with the BBC’s responses to your complaint thus far.  As you may know, the remit of the Editorial Complaints Unit is to investigate cases where there may have been a serious breach of the standards expressed in the BBC’s Editorial Guidelines ( ).  We’ll now begin an investigation into the concerns you have raised, which will include a review of the correspondence so far, conversations with the programme-makers and any other enquiries that might be appropriate.
      I will aim to let you know the outcome of our investigation by 22 May.  When we have completed our investigation we will send you our provisional conclusions.  If you disagree with them, you will have ten working days in which to let us have your comments, and our finding will not be finalised until those comments have been taken into account.
      Yours sincerely
      Richard Hutt
      Complaints Director”

    168. Indion says:

      DMW42 @ 19 Apr 7:30pm

      ” Thought I’d share this nugget with the ‘howf drinkers. ”

      I’ve a thirst to share. The ‘howf in which city and when usually there in case I can join in when back home from tomorrow until next Friday?

    169. DMW42 says:

      Indion, I was being a bit colloquial and referring to Quarantine as the ‘howf’ as there’s a bunch of ‘regulars’ post here and I really enjoy reading the threads.
      But, now that you mention it, I’d be up for a few sherries (Lambrinis Ian) with similar minded folks sometime. We should definitely have a think about it.

    170. scottish_skier says:

      Trolls can be fun sometimes.
      Just don’t respond to them unless you feel a bit of baiting would kill some time.

    171. Patrick Roden says:

      @ DMW42,  whaaaat ? this is amazing and needs to be shared on every independence forum.
      If the BBC  becomes unbiased…we win!

    172. scottish_skier says:

      Tory Lord Patten?
      Just thinkin like.

    173. tartanfever says:

      Rev Stu,
      Please say your going to do another Rangers article now that Chuck has left the building ?
      There is one prediction he got right, when he visited the N.Ireland supporters last year and told them that ‘ as long as he was in charge at Rangers, they would never again play in the SPL’
      Although, in balance, he did fail when he promised that the next away strip would be orange.

    174. Indion says:

      ‘howfers 🙂
      Re response to my previous from DWM42 @ 9:09pm
      OK, my bad. But let’s not think about doing it, let’s do it!
      All being well, I should be back in Scotland and on Tayside from early pm tomorrow Sat 20 Apr until midday next Friday.
      So, THE HOWF – or any other PUB in central Dundee would be good for me to meet up with the likeminded there or thereabouts who are also to be found here on WoS.
      Hey, we might be able to combine a meet-up with a YES event in the neighbourhood, if any are taking place?
      Anyone up for it?    

    175. ianbrotherhood says:

      Always up for a swally, but I don’t know anywhere that has Lambrini on draught (that’s an opening for some budding entrepreneur…)
      The Sarry Heid in Glasgow used to have Buckfast on tap. So did Nice and Sleazy’s on Sauchie, although I never partook – never been able to touch the stuff since Helen Lidl associated herself with it, albeit disapprovingly.  I also avoid drinks with overt associations to monks because jokes involving my surname inevitably arise. (One of my great great uncles was a very well known priest in Clydebank – Father Brotherhood. If he’d chosen to be a monk he would’ve been Brother Brotherhood. Shades of Boutros Boutros Boutros Boutros Ghali…)
      Someone once told me that the Sarry Heid used to serve milk with a dash of gas, but I don’t know if that’s true.
      Anyway, if things keep going as they are then I’m sure we’ll all meet at some point or other. I don’t know what your handle means, but it always reminds me of WD40, which implies that you’d be a handy camper to have around when things need smoothing.
      In any event, it’s good to see the howff busy after so long – just a pity Norsey didn’t fancy joining us. I was so looking forward to his analysis of Taylorgate. Oh well, I guess we’ll never know.

    176. ianbrotherhood says:

      Completely forgot to ask – what was your original complaint about?
      Apologies if you’ve already explained but I never manage to read all of every thread.
      Very curious to know how you managed to elicit such a response.

    177. DMW42 says:

      IanBrotherhood – loved the post mate, had me laughing like a torn pocket.
      I started complaining when there was the stooshie with the foreign ministers being misrepresented and, every time the BBC responded, I stuck it to them some more, and added more examples (links / screenshots) of biased. And, every time I sent a response, I copied in ODIHR (but see my previous posts on ODIHR who won’t intervene unless requested by the Member State.
      Anyway, last week NS posted a copy of a letter from  representative of the Luxenbourg Foreign Secretary and I though, feck it, this backs up my original complaint so get it in to ECU. I also suggested they might want to get some investigative journalists onto Taylorgate as the BBC used to be good at that sort of thing and the social media were all over it.
      And here we are, Coincidence or not, at the time the BBC start doing some proper interviewing, Labour wheels fall off.
      I’ll look out for you the next time I’m down visiting my mother in Irvine, every three or four weeks or so, and we’ll have a wee half shandy.

    178. DMW42 says:

      By the way guys, I don’t do the facetwat thing (not in public anyway), but do feel free to share.

    179. ianbrotherhood says:

      Sounds like your tenacity has paid off, so here’s to ye…
      That’s it nearly done now, so,
      Sorry man, it came back on me there a wee bit.
      Anyway, it could come to pass that we will meet sooner than anyone thought. The Yes campaign is having a stall in Irvine tomorrow? Not sure about times etc, but if it’s in the Bridgegate there can’t be many spaces available what with all the works going on. The SSP stall is every other week, and we always end up using the same space, so I guess the guid Yes folk will end up in the same spot, or thereabouts.
      We wouldn’t want to give the security services any assistance, so…(I’m whispering now)...if I’m there it’ll be between 1 and 2, and I’ll be disguised as Brian Donohue.
      PS. The code is Norsewarrior.
      PPS. If required, the double-check is ‘Yes, of course my hair is real.’

    180. Dal Riata says:

      I was one of the ones who had a real go at Norsewarrior from the time he/she first appeared on WoS. I kept at him/her that much that Stu was threatening me with a yellow card! I don’t regret it, though, that person is a troll, and a good one, too.
      What right do I have to be so sure of that accusation? Well, having had my own website with comments enabled, been a moderator on a fairly well-known social website, and dealt with customers’ and dealers’ complaints on a product site over the last four years you develop an instinct, or ‘feel’ for who is genuine and who is ‘at it’ – and Norsewarrior is definitely at it.
      The signs were all there (and still are): straight in with ‘an attitude’, passive-aggressive posting style, making accusations, accusing others of ganging up on him, ad nauseum repeating of minor points in commentary, ad nauseum pedantry, ‘bombing’ a thread with comment after comment with no attempt made to resolve any issues, riling up other posters, taking over a thread with their views stirring up contention amongst other posters, posters ‘taking sides’, ‘flaming’ threads, etc. 
      Of course, Norsewarrior has only just got going, but we have already seen an advancement into the next devious stage, where the ‘real’ trolling starts: the piece de resistance – getting the owner of the site/moderator to be on their side, a huge ‘win’ Eg: get the owner/moderator ‘onside’ as quick as possible by: using their name as often as possible when disputes occur, quoting the ‘rules’ of the owner’s website, pretend to have something in common with the owner (support the same football team, perhaps)…basically, any devious manoeuvre is used to get the owner/moderator on their side. 
      From then on, the troll is winning! He/She has free reign on the site and they can continue to work their evil spell on all, members, and visitors alike.
      Result: the owner/moderator starts to ban people for accusations of trolling, one or two at the beginning, then more and more. This causes lots of ill feeling and consternation among regular contributors. Fewer comments get left BTL. Finally, the site destroys itself, falling into a black hole of rancour and animosity.
      Meanwhile the troll is ROFL, ROFL, ROFL …It has won!
      Now, having said all that, I very much doubt that WoS will end up in that final apocalyptic state! Hopefully, Norsewarrior, or any other malicious troll who wanders on here will be shown the exit door and then the site can go on as before, pest-free.
      Rev Stu, I’m not having a go at you here. I’m well aware it’s your site and you set the rules. What I said above  is based on the experience I’ve had dealing with trolls and flamers, and there have been many! With all the shit I’ve had to deal with over the years from that lot, you’ll understand that I have a visceral hatred for them!
      For all it’s worth, Rev Stu, please reconsider your getting angry and threatening to ban members on your site who are hacked off with this particular individual. Sometimes people get so pissed off that they voice their opinion rather than keeping schtum.
      More than a few members here are more than aware of what Norsewarrior is up to: some have noted the same name employing similar tactics on other sites as those used on WoS. 
      Yes, I know that circumstancial evidence is not enough and ‘events’ have to occur on your own site for proof  bearing out a reason for expulsion, and that’s as it should be (although sometimes, pre-emptiveness is gooid!). But please don’t fall for this dude’s ‘charms’…’The force is strong in this one’. This guy’s good, but not so good that he hasn’t been sussed out already! 
      I think I can speak for many, Stu, when I say WoS is on my to-visit list every day. Your articles are excellent and ‘take it to the man’ every time. The posters leave lots of extra information on or off topic, and the ‘atmosphere’ on site is good natured. I just don’t want to see trolls or flamers causing consternation and strife, which would take away all that is good about WoS. Keep up the good work… and beware of the troll!

    181. DMW42 says:

      IanBrotherhood “I’ll be disguised as Brian Donohoe”, I’m guessing you’ll be covered in bandages as that’s the only way you’ll see that invisible man.
      Won’t make it this weekend mate but, no doubt will run into you before too long.

    182. ianbrotherhood says:

      Indeed. It’ll happen one day.
      I might pop along later, but have decided to change my disguise in case anyone stops me with problems relating to potholes and dog-fouling.
      Hoots mon!

    183. DMW42 says:

      Catch you later then Ian, mind where you step.
      Indion, I don’t get through to Dundee that often but will give you a shout, as and when. If you’re ever going to be down Stirling way, let me know and we’ll share a few.

    184. ianbrotherhood says:

      Seeing as how the howff’s quite busy, and some of us are still kicking our heels waiting for NW to return with his Taylorgate musings, thought I’d lob the following in on the offchance that anyone hasn’t seen it.
      The Calton Hill Declaration, 2004.
      This is from the Wikipedia entry, and I assume it’s accurate. No doubt some of you were there that day. As a blueprint for the Constitution I suppose it’s as solid a start as any. Curious for any thoughts on it – perhaps all those inclined to sign it could form the ‘pool’ for the demarchy as discussed nearer the top of the thread.
      We the undersigned call for an independent Scottish republic built on the principles of liberty, equality, diversity and solidarity.
      These principles can never be put into practice while Scotland remains subordinate to the hierarchical and anti-democratic institutions of the British State.
      We believe these principles can be brought about by a freely elected Scottish Government with full control of Scotland’s revenues.
      We believe that the right to self determination is an inherent right, and not a boon or a favour to be granted to us whether by the Crown or the British State.
      We believe that sovereignty rests in the people and vow to fight for the right to govern ourselves for the benefit of all those living in Scotland today, tomorrow and in future times. The Government of a country is servant to the people, not master of the people.
      We believe that a written Constitution will guarantee, under law, everyone’s right to freely vote, speak and assemble; and will guarantee the people’s right to privacy and protection, and access to information on all its Government’s doings.
      We vow to fight for the power to refuse to send our sons and daughters to kill and die in unjust wars in foreign lands.
      We vow to fight for the power to banish nuclear weapons of mass destruction from our land.
      We vow to fight for the power to acquire and restrict the use of property or lands controlled by individuals, corporations or governments from beyond Scotland’s borders.
      We vow to fight for the power to turn our depopulated land into a haven for those fleeing famine and persecution.
      We vow to fight for the power to build a more equal society, free of poverty, through the redistribution of our vast wealth.
      We vow to fight for the power to protect our soil, seas and rivers for our children and for the generations to come.
      We swear to oppose all forms of national chauvinism, imperialism and racism. We swear to oppose all forms of discrimination on the grounds of gender, ethnic origin, religion, place of birth, age, disability, sexuality or language.
      We aim for an independent Scottish Republic in which people may live with dignity and with self respect, free from exploitation, assuming the responsibilities of free women and men.
      An independent Scottish republic will negotiate freely and as an equal with governments of other lands.
      Our aim is not to erect walls of separation, but to build an outward-looking, Scotland that will extend the hand of friendship to all the peoples of the world.
      We vow to continue the struggle for a free, democratic Scottish republic for as long as it may take.
      The fight is for freedom.
      Sincerely, …………… The Undersigned


    185. Albert Herring says:

      Superb! I’ll sign that.

    186. Dal Riata says:

      Oh, no! It’s back again…….

    187. a supporter says:

      to North Brit comment on 25/4/13 and Dal Riata
      Fee, fi, fo, fum, I smell something fishy ho hum.

    188. Indion says:

      DMW42 @ 11:31am on 20 Apr in part said:
      Indion, I don’t get through to Dundee that often but will give you a shout, as and when. If you’re ever going to be down Stirling way, let me know and we’ll share a few.

      OK, but be advised I don’t get to Dundee or Stirling that often (on now back from a flying visit to the former) myself, so we’ll both have to shout early if we are to meet up.

      That said, I’m bound to be down your way in 2014 at the latest. After all, Stirling is really where our parliament should be!

    189. The Man in the Jar says:

      Jeez you are the first person that I have heard with the same view as me regarding Stirling. I have even picked the spot. Right where those insurance offices are at the third “crag”. Wi a big windae lookin` out at the Wallace Monument.

    190. Silverytay says:

      indion    Sorry ‘ Perth is where our parliament should be ‘ after all it is where our kings & queens were crowned .

    191. The Man in the Jar says:

      My vote would still be Stirling for practical reasons. Ever tried to park anywhere near Holyrood? Plenty of space around Stirling. That and it is roughly equidistant from Edinburgh, Glasgow and Perth so very easy to upgrade transport links. There again as a central belter I would say that. 😉

    192. Indion says:

      I acknowledge Perth’s claim to past fame, but would prefer our personal and plural sovereignty endow our parliament somewhere more central to our being as a whole for principled and practical reasons.

      On those grounds, Stirling stands out.

      Let’s not confuse capitol with capital as London did and does! 

    193. Silverytay says:

      Actually in a new and vibrant Scotland we should have the new parliament north of Perth so that we don’t make the same mistakes as London .
      I accept that we would have to build new infrastructure to cope but we are going to have to rebuild our infrastructure anyway to make up for 300 years of neglect .

    194. The Man in the Jar says:

      Sorry got to disagree again. Ease of access to the new and vibrant parliament for as many as posible would be my top priority. Hence my argument for Stirling. I hear what you are saying regarding London but I would argue that Edinburgh financial capital, Glasgow industrial capital and Stirling political capital would spread things about.
      Anyway lets face it. It ain’t going to happen. Imagine the stooshie after the last fiasco.

    195. DMW42 says:

      Indion, MITJ, Silvertay,
      I’m maybe a bit biased as I live in the area (the Ochils) but, if there were to be a choice it would be Stirling for me. Not only for the reasons stated by MITJ and Indion but, it just ‘feels’ right. Difficult for me to explain as its more of a ‘gut’ thing but it’s one of the reasons I moved here from Ayrshire. 

    196. Alex mci says:

      Well I just received the following text from bitter together.
      Hi Alex, what do you think about leaving the UK? Do you agree that we are stronger when we work together? There will be a referendum on Scottish independence. Please tell us your views via or text UKOK to 64446 [std rates apply]. Text BTSTOP to 64446 to opt out.
      two questions how do they know my name, a where did they find my mobile number .

    197. Adrian B says:

      Just did a quick google ‘text 64446 complaints’ and came up with this:

    198. Alex mci says:

      Ok Adrian I had a look at that, so if I text them back it will cost them money? I might do that and play at being a unionist. See what pish they send to me.

    199. ianbrotherhood says:

      FAO Vronsky, Braco, Cameron B, Albert Herring –
      Hope youse haven’t abandoned this place.
      If there’s consensus that the BBC is not fit for purpose and will, post-Yes, be expected to GTF out of Pacific Quay, we’ll have to replace it with something.
      Wondering if you’ve already heard of the following, and if so, how it could maybe be combined with the Demarchy idea etc:

    200. Adrian B says:
    201. Adrian B says:

      Second time lucky in posting an image?

      Edit – perhaps not – will try later.

    202. Indion says:

      Disregard. I’m parking here for 5 mins, just in case.

    203. ScotFree1320 says:

      @Alex mci
      Your URL in the SMS from the Noes leads to a question which anyone can answer for you.  Additionally I believe the majority of your full phone number may also be in the URL (the m=….. part).  I recommend you ask Stu to remove it.

    204. Hetty says:

      Urghhhh, sorry so many comments i couldn’t read them all amazing and fantastic!!….but I spotted one comment about artists and writers and as I am an artist. Nature is art for sure, and ok I make prints so not likely to paint pretty flowers, though I do really like flowers… however, artists are only worth their salt if they dig a bit deeper, and on all levels, shallow on-the-surface art is just not saying anything to us is it…
      iI you look into the eyes and face of Rembrandt in his portrait at the National gallery here in Edinburgh, ( back room ground floor,  darkly lit, and usually quiet)  he has painted each and everyone of us, most people just do not see that, and they swish by…I find it fascinating, the painting I mean…

    205. ianbrotherhood says:

      You’ve wandered into a strange – largely silent – space.
      Rembrandt? There’s a belter of his in the Hunterian Gallery, up at Glasgow Uni, ‘The Entombment‘, a wee toty painting, oil on board. Stunning. Viewed from three, four feet away, you can see every line of the ‘dead’ Christ’s face – shift in, focus as hard as you can, a foot further…turns out it’s  just a wiry blob of old paint.
      Anyway, here’s a documentary which has just blown my socks off, but doesn’t fit anywhere:

    206. Captain Caveman says:

      I saw that Irn-Bru TV advert last night, the one where a staunch, proud Scotman’s daughter walks in with some wideboy ‘Mockney’ English boyfriend, replete with Bulldog named ‘Winston’, wearing a Union Jack coat – which promptly trumps on his (rather excellent I thought) Saltire rug 😀
      Classic! 🙂

    207. ianbrotherhood says:

      Here’s that Rembrandt sketch – don’t know if it’s on permanent display, but the Hunterian’s always worth a visit anyway:

    208. Indion says:

      The following is entered her in response to CameronB’s comment after my entry @ 12:42am in Rev Stu’s ‘Fair Warning’ blogpost in the small hours of the next day.
      CameronB @ 1:22am: ” Didn’t watch it Indion, though no doubt it was the BBC’s sanitised account of history. “
      On the contrary – in the light of my military experience during the 1st Iraq War and Saddam’s subsequent containment, supported by the no fixed-wing fly Northern and Southern Watch zones over the Kurds and Shias respectively, I thought the first part of the BBC’s new series on the 2nd Iraq War (on BBC 2 London at 9pm and again on BBC 2 Scotland at 11:20pm on Wed 29 May) was VG because it was not sanitised.
      When you have time, suggest you check-out the start of series on iplayer and let me know if it confirms your doubt having not watched it, and if you still think it sanitised, let me know – via Quarantine – what my experience might have blinded me to.

      Especially @ my 12:42am on how absence of evidence for evidence of absence was ‘fixed’ into evidence of presence between 3rd and 4th hand accounts by the ‘It’s a slam dunk’ CIA in Cheney’s VP camp and which Powell’s State Dept was then used to sell at the UN … because the evident hawks in Bush Jnr’s US leadership thought Saddam would supply AK with WMD, which he might have, had he not had those remaining destroyed after being kicked out of Kuwait in the 1st war, doing so iaw the UN Resolutions cease fire terms, but not reporting he had as therein also stipulated.
      For an alternative, why not check out this interview with General Wesley Clark. Retired 4-star U.S. Army general, Supreme Allied Commander of NATO during the 1999 War on Yugoslavia. ”
      I did again, and,if you do watch the first part of the BBC’s new series, perhaps you too will find it to be close to the knuckle coverage of the for and against the 2nd Iraq War as a continuum of Bush Jnr’s post 9/11 reactions.  Incidentally, the “1999 War on Yugoslavia” from the title of your cut and paste was the intervention to protect Kosovo from the Serbian regime which had perpetrated the muslim atrocities in FY during the ethnic civil war that broke-out earlier there after the Berlin War fell in 1989.
      That hugely significant event marked the end of the Cold War in Europe [won by Western Europe under US led and lead funded NATO to keep the Warsaw Pact out and the EU led and lead funded by Germany’s Ostpolitik to keep Eastern Europe fed until Russia came to its common senses] – bar what broke-out next where the USSR’s brand of communism had been contained at its periphery amid inflamed embers as elswhere in the Middle and Near East:
      A.  Between – before in – the Western backed states carved out of Arab lands by imperial France and Britain in the hitherto Ottoman Empire in the Middle East.
      B.  In Yugoslavia, where Tito had kept external pressures and internal tensions in check in a multi-ethnic state straddling the hitherto Austro-Hungarian and Ottoman empires.
      Overnight, after the Berlin Wall fell, the West’s ‘enemy of my enemy’ was no longer of neccessity ‘my friend’.  And all hell broke out in not recognising which was which and never had been either in the aftermath’s failure of political will not to act decisively at the first whiff of enflamed embers.
      Nuff said, if not too much already for now, whilst deathly Syria unravels amid the too late as usual to find out by enough people to cry out ‘something must be done’ and heard before it can’t be, as anywhere else without making matters worse at almost the last rather than in prevention best first.
      Where top-down has not fostered just and so strong, prosperous societies elsewhere, we by example should continue to aspire to from bottom-up, without totally counterproductive bloody oppression and violent internecine conflict, that among other reasons is fuelled by sectarian bigotry amid the want of deprivation and the need for decent, honest to goodness upbringing through provident livelihoods and education in humane knowledge, skills and attitudes.

    209. Indion says:

      Here’s the link to the TV programme from BBC 2 London on 29 May @ 9pm+1 hr ‘The Iraq War’ Part 1 of 3 on how Bush and Blair were convinced [by their own  wishful thinking] that Iraq had WMDs after the 1st war against Iraq before starting the 2nd
      And for good measure the Panorama repeat on the eve of the 10th year since the the 2nd war against Iraq, from BBC 2 London on 30 May @ 31 May 2:05+1hr ‘The Spies Who Fooled the World’ [according to Bush & Blair]:
      And we’ve still got the Chilcot report to come in …. …. …. …. whenever:

    210. CameronB says:

      @ Indion
      Cheers. Please do not take this the wrong way, but my why-fi is not unlimited, so I don’t think I’ll waste my downloads on watching BBC ‘analysis’ of recent events, let alone the run up to the invasion. Or am I wrong to think there will be little balance or impartiality? Interesting Torygraph article. Just goes to show how cosy things are down there, at the heart of government. And I never knew Lord Owen was of the swivel eyed persuasion. Conspiracy theories indeed!

    211. Indion says:

       CameronB  Thanks for letting me know you’d seen my response, albeit in not seeming to have ‘got it’ fully 😉
      1A.  I watch iplayer direct.  That saves downloading and saving the iplayer program and any tv programme I have saved too until ready to watch it on my downloaded iplayer.
      1B.  My broadband in/out is 2816/832 kbps.
      2A.  For the 3rd time, it is not a sanitized, but an illuminating whopping warts and all insight from those most closely involved with Bush jnr and Blair fcuk buddies.
      2B. I recommended folk watch it for two reasons. First, because I thought it to be the most informative and widespread as more attention is drawn to it. Second, because in case responses to it might include anything of consequence that had been left out. My experience leads me to think not in this case, but my own needs to be tested as enlightened by others’ if materially different to reach a meaningful and thus worthwhile consensus.
      3.  I don’t take anything the wrong way, just my way that could as it has been right or wrong to mull over and settle on for now, or set aside until I have the time to dig out further evidence, or ignore as irrelevant if not of primary, secondary or tertiary importance as symptom and/or – especially – cause.
      4.  Don’t take this wrong way. I don’t use the word ‘doubtless’ in wishfully thinking or writing about, without checking for confirmation before hazarding a declaration of full fat, skimmed or semi-skimmed opinion. You might wish to consider doing so too when seeking to persuade the NO brainers 🙂
      [ Now – not in response to you – but in going further, in general I think blogposts and responses blt provide test beds for thought that are a quantum leap from the dead tree Press and one way TV.  And best too in being accessible, if message (fact?) and messenger (motive?) are first dealt with separately before examined in combination for confirmed desired aim and actual outcome. Not doubting Rev Stu’s motives is a heartening headstart for his WoS blogposts.
      It’s also why the likes of that narcissist short wanker drop in to be seen off now and again, as likewise others as norsewarrior seek to confate and confuse manifest SNP policy in practice for party-political elections to parliaments with manifest SNP, Green & SSP policy in principle for the election by plebiscite of which parliament we would prefer to first and foremost represent our unique individual and plural being/sovereignty for the people in Scotland: Holyrood or Westminster. Which brings me back to …. ] 
      5A.  I was fishing before thinking of going out on an unsupported limb, in getting the feeling the foregoing BBC programmes as other re-visits on the anniversary of the 2nd war with Iraq are to prepare folk in the UK to accept a warts and all Chilcot report as ‘old hat’ whenever it is released. And hence of no germane matter and consequence to the ongoing questions surrounding the nature and extent of the UK’s continued purpose in being leading to the next UK General Election by May 2015 at the latest via the EU elections in May 2014 – and the only date the UK GE could be brought forward to (?) – and our own Sep 2014 Referendum [1]
      5B. When of course it does, in exposing the post 9/11 breakdown of Western democracy’s leadership unchecked in the US and UK where its Bush jnr and Blair leaders were backed by the same corporate transnational bankocracy and its ultra-liberalism (as in ‘neo-liberal’ for its is unpopular political fronts on the Capitol Hill and Westminster Village of Wall Street and the City of London – the latter now increasingly vulnerable to Frankfurt’s rejection of anglo-american financial excesses if it does not done with them and hence Camerons revived interest in negotiation before an EU Referendum to red or green card the amber otcome.
      Doubtless, CameronB, you’d agree J
      Note 1 To determine whether or not – with our unique personal and plural being / sovereingty – to first and foremost so endow and be represented at our parliament Holyrood in our own as for real owned State, or Westminster still as still subject to as subjects it has no constituted individual, joint and several liability for in being bound by its own unique being in absolute sovereignty [2]
      And for completeness if YES is favoured, whether or not to precede in negotiations therafter to transform the Union in the British Isles from a single, singularly exclusive, power devolved is power retained unitary State, into a new Union based on people’s mutual social and beneficial interests between at least 2, all-inclusive, decentralized States and 3 if the ROI so wishes to be formally part of too – pending if ever re-united with NI – in recognition, acknowledgement and enactment of such a confederal association to bring about optimal autonomy and foster prosperity all round in our isles.
      Note 2 Whereas we as UK Plc taxpayers have and remain having public unlimited incorporated liability for it’s national debt built up by continued fcuk-ups since the end of World War Part 2, during the Cold War Part 3 and the subsequent falling-out of external and internal favour of Cold War Part 4 in the Near & Middle East.
      Despite the generous loan terms to recover from war’s end bankcruptcy in 1946, these fcuk-ups arose when firstly the centre-left political economy of nationalised spend to save without earning to serve society failures led in the mid-70s to the IMF being called-in to prescribe the 1979 neoliberal buggers turn about towards the still not earning to serve society failure of secondly the centre-right political economy of save to spend by selling-off to invest in Big Bang, Black Wednesday’s kicking out of ERM political speculation by marked to market devaluation, Big Boom, Big Bust, Big Bailout, Big Downturn and all but Depression in name as we bump along the bottom, waiting for recovery in the US to blow in from the west – not on a winging it bull run, but arriving on prayed for solid grounds.
      Meanwhile, Big Bankcruptcy gets closer as the UK’s national debt rises inexorably – from compounded interest whilst in deficit – to meet depressed growth in UK national output, in real terms dropping below £1.5 trillion.
      If 300 year’s worth of assets are not re-mutualised in a markedly different form of shared ownership, I’m beginning to warm to the notion of having been extinguished to extinguish our share of the remaining liabilities including our parasitic rip-off carpetbaggers there and sheepshaggers here.

    212. CameronB says:

      Thanks again, I’ll be sure to watch them then. BTW, streaming material on t’web equates to downloading. At least it does with my service, hence my caution over BBC material.
      Re. being extinguished. I had always thought we should divide the family silver we’ve built up over the past 300 years or so, but I’ll admit being extinguished is looking more and more attractive. There are more bubbles on the way, with the creation of one being planned in order to fund HS2, as an example. And who knows what further financial wrongdoings will be uncovered? I’m still not sure about being extinguished though, on an emotional level. But I suppose at the end of the day, you can’t eat emotions.

    213. ianbrotherhood says:

      Just watched the first part of the BBC piece you linked…awesome…aye, get it…
      Can’t get part two…trying.. Lambrinied au moment, not sure how to get it….please help…

    214. ianbrotherhood says:

      Indion –
      Thanks for the link to that documentary – just realised that the second part hasn’t been broadcast yet, so that’s why I couldn’t find it…doh.
      It’s important stuff, and quite surreal seeing the major players telling the story, clearly enjoying being able to comment on their momentous roles and decisions whilst perpetuating the same lies. What a rum lot they are altogether, and the physical degeneration of them is something to behold.
      Looking forward to the next episode.

    215. CameronB says:

      Ianbrotherhood –
      “What a rum lot they are altogether, and the physical degeneration of them is something to behold.”
      The “Eye of Soromon” has a withering effect on those that come under its power.

    216. ianbrotherhood says:

      And what was it all about?
      In this quiet space it should be safe enough to post this:
      Be sure to scroll down – the list of names is quite daunting.
      Makes ye wonder…how many engineers and architects are out there?!

    217. tartanfever says:

      Irn Bru hits Russia !

    218. Vronsky says:

      ” the list of names is quite daunting”
      Swivel-eyed conspiraloon nutcase tinfoil-hatted whack-jobs  the lot of them. 
      I’ve got a couple of links I’ll post later – not to hand at the moment.   One is an Australian commentary on the NIST report, basically declaring it impossible.  It stood on the NIST site for quite a long time in the ‘request for comment’ section but has since disappeared.  I caught it with Zotero and will post somewhere else if I can find no other link to it.  The second is Chandler’s maths showing the impossibility of the collapse from a Newtonian point of view, perhaps a bit daunting if you’re not into that sort of thing, but it brings some rigour to the immediate intuition that what we saw can’t happen.
      Will check IMMI at more leisure later – looks interesting.  I was wondering if Glasgow Media Group could be persuauded to take an interest in media coverage of the referendum, specifically the BBC.  Problem is, they tend to report in retrospect, but we could be doing all this again in a couple of years’ time.  Might be handy to have the BEEB in court before then.
      Sailling choppy waters at the moment – just got paid off.  Anybody got a vacancy for an unempoyed philosopher poet? 

    219. ianbrotherhood says:

      Sorry to hear about the work situation. 
      Aye, the NIST report was a belter. Did you ever see Shyam Sunder’s response when he was asked the Chandler question? Makes Johann Lamont on Trident look eloquent.

    220. Vronsky says:

      Those links.  The Chandler paper is still easily found with Google, so I won’t add it.  If anyone wants a plain English commentary on the mathematics, I’ll do my best.  The paper by Proe and Thomas of the Victoria University, Melbourne is still in fact on the NIST website, but has been lumped into one huge PDF with all other comments.  You might want to browse through them – some are interesting (most are not).  But to get to Proe and Thomas quickly, here’s my copy:

    221. ianbrotherhood says:

      Aye. There will be folk who are interested in dissecting papers of that sort, and there’s certainly no shortage of them via AE9/11. It’s just such a shame people don’t trust their own inwit enough to process what they can see in the footage available.
      Did you ever get involved in the Mike Rudin-produced ‘Conspiracy Files’ threads on the BBC Editors site?
      Those threads remain (so far as I know) the busiest the BBC has ever hosted, and the one relating to WTC 7 (the episode was called ‘The Third Tower’ and the corresponding thread was called ‘Caught up in a Conspiracy Theory’) went on for a full year, gathering over 5,000 comments, all of which had to be moderated.
      Some nifty trolls appeared, one called ‘Johnny Pixels’, and a later arrival, a hard-hitter from the US called ‘Tom’ something-or-other. The threads are still available via BBC ‘The Editors’.
      Unfortunately for the trolls, the NIST report was published. The regulars, meself included, howled for Rudin to respond to the new information (as he’d promised he would) but he went awfy quiet so a few of us submitted official complaints. The response to the complaints (well, to mine anyway) was that Rudin had been presented with our concerns – in response he said that the criticisms of the NIST report had been debunked, so that was that. It transpired that his source was an obscure non-governmental website…
      By a happy coincidence the first anniversary of the thread was imminent, so Rudin kept his head down and, hey-presto, it was shut.
      Oh well, so it goes. But Rudin is one to watch. He’s still there so far as I know. Anything involving swivel-eyed loons seems to land on his desk, although he hasn’t yet produced anything on UKIP.
      If the Beeb are ordered to construct a narrative whereby: rabid gangs of Maoist ScotNats are preparing to unleash the Mother of All Uprisings in the event of a No vote; evidence of the latest Al Qaeda franchise has been established in Milngavie; Catholic and Protestant Fundamentalists are joining forces to drive all Poles and Pakistanis south of Gretna, etc etc etc…Rudin’s bound to be in with a good shout of securing that particular contract.
      If the Glasgow Media Group aren’t extremely busy covering the referendum (which we should all hope they are) then they might, one day, get around to having a wee swatch at Mike Rudin, the Conspiracy Files etc – fertile territory indeed.
      And I know what you mean about the GMG publication process – they do tend to produce books rather than bulletins etc, but if only we knew someone in the Unit who could give us the occasional heads-up as to what they’re working on? It would, I’m sure, be invaluable stuff.
      We’ll see what they’ve been up to sooner or later.
      Sooner would be useful.

    222. Vronsky says:

      Didn’t get involved in the Rudin thread but I saw the ‘documentary’.  I was in the almost 2,000 post thread over at Craig Murray’s.  A troll called ‘Tomk’ appeared there  – wonder if it was the same as your Tom.  He seemed quite demented and got pulled after a while.
      I’m surprised that Rudin admits cutting the last part of Silverstein’s quote.  I thought he could just deny that, as I can’t find any extant record of the broadcast.  What Larry said was completely innocent, but we’ll leave off that last bit just in case.  I recently noted someone else playing the same trick, you’ll know who I mean. 
      Curiously Rudin mentions a truth site which discounts the Silverstein lapse as a red herring, and so did a poster over on Craig Murray.  A case of don’t look at this, look at that?  Although I suppose it’s true that Silverstein’s flappy tongue doesn’t matter because, unlike all other conspiracies, the evidence for this one is physical and imperishable.  Alas, it will not be accepted in time to hang the perpetrators.

    223. ianbrotherhood says:

      Larry the lamb:

    224. CameronB says:

      Re. Silverstein. I don’t think the clip of him is of much use as it can be interpreted to mean anything. Stick with the maths. That can’t be argued with, at least by the rational.

    225. Vronsky says:

      I intend to stick with the maths.  But it’s interesting that when Rudin and others cut that line, it’s clearly because they think it’s incriminating.  Else why do it?  It only trims about a second off the sound  bite.

    226. ianbrotherhood says:

      @CamB –
      The Larry quote, in and of itself, may or may not be a smoking gun depending on viewpoint, but the Rudin treatment of it is astonishing. As V points out, why make a big deal of it? 
      If you presented that Rudin piece to a student of logic (say, for argument’s sake, someone who has no knowledge of 9/11, and whose first language isn’t English) they would struggle to locate any consistent line of thought or ‘argument’. It’s a mess.
      Apply the Coleridegean method:
      What did the author set out to do?
      Did he do it?
      Was it worth doing?
      So far as I can make out, Rudin had one objective in mind – to cover his own arse. Did he even manage that?
      Aye, the maths and models are beyond dispute, but they don’t figure in the Rudin/BBC narrative because they have to ignore them – any critique of the BBC version is contained/restricted by the BBC, and they still can’t make it hing thegither.

    227. CameronB says:

      Didn’t mean to come across so assertively there, as I’m sure both of you are much closer to the truth than I am. I haven’t been following events for the last couple of years as I’ve been focused on what’s happening in the Middle East and Baluchistan.
      My take on Silvestein, is that it was possibly an unwitting yet unequivocal admission the WTC7 was purposefully demolished. Try proving that in court though. In fact, didn’t Silverstein will a couple of million in insurance, by claiming two terrorist attacks WTC1 & 2, as well as WTC7?

    228. ianbrotherhood says:

      Nothing to apologise for – you’re right!
      Silverstein will never have his collar felt and knows it, which perhaps helps explain how he feels able to sit in front of a camera-crew and talk about any aspect of the whole thing.

    229. CameronB says:

      @ ianbrotherhood
      Seeing as how the subject has come up, without my prompting, I suppose I should spill the beans as to my view on what happened. Haven’t a clue. My view on what didn’t happen, could be summed up as the official conspiracy myth. I know that strength of popularity is no test of correctness, but on this occasion I am happy to share the majority view.
      Opinion polls about 9/111 conspiracy theories

    230. Vronsky says:

      I’m a Bach fan, and a fan of the late Glenn Gould, amazing Bach pianist.  Gould wasn’t keen on Mozart and avoided playing him whenever possible, which turned out to be almost all the time.  However one of the conductors he often worked with was a Mozart freak and in a famous interview Gould was asked why they had never quarrelled (Gould’s rather acerbic views on Mozart were well known).  ‘You can’t tell a man he has been worshipping the wrong god’, said Gould.

      That’s the Truther Problem – how can you tell people they’re worshipping the wrong god?

      Love the way he sings along.

    231. CameronB says:

      @ ianbrotherhood
      If you place any weigh on the balance of opinion, then I’d say it was time for a fully independent INTERNATIONAL inquiry. It will never happen though, as I have no doubt that some of the most influential people in the world would have their “collar felt” if it did. Then we could take a look at the ‘War (of) Terror’, and follow the money to see who benefits.
      Hope the Rev. runs more “security” related articles, ’cause it is a goldmine of ‘old Empire’ mendacity and fuckwittery.

    232. CameronB says:

      That’s the Truther Problem – how can you tell people they’re worshipping the wrong god?
      I think the game was a bogie when they fecked up the investigation of the Kennedy assassination. Since then, US presidents have known they would not be protected by the state security apparatus, which appeared to be working to another agenda.

    233. ianbrotherhood says:

      My Dad told me that there was a huge early-morning queue outside Glasgow’s Smith’s bookshop when the Warren Commission Report was finally published. The public interest was massive.
      If even a fraction of the population was interested enough in 9/11 to locate the Kean/Hamilton Report (and make some effort to read it) then the official narrative wouldn’t have survived as long as it has.
      David Ray Griffin called it a ‘571 page lie’.
      It tries to be a Clancy-style ‘story’ as well as a factual account, but fails miserably on both counts.
      What to do? If folk aren’t interested enough to do their own homework then it’s a waste of time banging on about it. I gave up years ago.

    234. ianbrotherhood says:

      ‘… didn’t Silverstein will a couple of million in insurance, by claiming two terrorist attacks WTC1 & 2, as well as WTC7?’
      You’re close man…

    235. CameronB says:

      @ ianbrotherhood
      I thought it was billion, but didn’t want to overstate the case.
      Do you know if Mike Rudin’s debunking of NIST critics, took account of NIST’s acknowledgement that WTC 7 exhibited free-fall speed for 8 stories?

    236. Braco says:

      Thanks for that 1% documentary link, I think! I am still trying to untangle my bile gland and clean up the mess but thank you anyway.
      P.S. My girlfriend thinks you should have put some sort of warning on it though and I would have to agree!

    237. Braco says:

      one of my favourites.

    238. ianbrotherhood says:

      Rudin didn’t even attempt any debunking. 
      In the thread I linked above (Jun 20th) Rudin did make a contribution around the 3,000 posts mark. 
      Then the NIST report on WTC7 was published, Chandler’s question caused Shyam Sunder to admit that there was a period of freefall, and – crucially – he did it on camera. It was the mother of all car-crashes. That’s when we really cranked-up the pressure on Rudin – he’d promised to respond to any ‘new’ evidence. That’s also when we started submitting detailed complaints, citing his unresponsiveness.
      I wasn’t that heavily involved for most of the full year, but some real stalwarts (especially sirjohnwood, ynda, moriaconnium and others) kept battering away at the science, helping each other while wading their way through some quite incredible personal abuse.
      In the meantime, Tom (posting as ‘tfk’) cropped up. If you go to page 55 of the 57 pages on that thread, that’s when it started to build towards a climax of sorts – we got the bit between our teeth , sensing that the thread would probably be shut when the first anniversary arrived. 
      You’d have to judge the merits of the arguments, but it’s worth looking at the tactics employed by ‘Tom’, esp from page 55 onwards.
      I scrolled through some of it earlier, and it was a peculiar sensation – seems such a long time ago now, but it was a very intense and in some ways liberating experience.

    239. ianbrotherhood says:

      You’ve probably seen this already, but it’s always worth watching.
      Shyam Sunder attempts to answer the Chandler question at approx 2.40.
      Chandler’s droll comment at 5.00 – ‘All of this makes sense, so long as you don’t look at the evidence.’ (!)

    240. Vronsky says:

      “Chandler’s droll comment”
      I think it was also Chandler who said: ‘Your argument is not with me, it is with Isaac Newton’.

    241. Vronsky says:

      Thanks Braco.  Lovely stuff.

    242. Vronsky says:

      This whole concert used to be on the web.  Some useless accountancy c**t got it taken down.  Google as much as you can and collect the bits.  Fabulously passionate.  If Emmanuelle Haim is not the most beautiful woman on the planet then…uh…er…oops..losing my thread a bit here.  Time for dark coffee and cold shower. 
      And Natalie Dessay! Whoaaaar! Make that a really cold shower.

    243. ianbrotherhood says:

      @Braco (Jun 24th) –
      Sorry man, totally missed your comment there.
      Aye, it’s a strange one, but for a self-professed film ‘student’ it’s a splendid effort, and he’s certainly not lacking in bravery – the ‘twist-in-the-tale’ regarding his own Da’s youthful film-making efforts was especially telling and poignant.
      It’s possible to feel sorry for some of these people, but only Time will tell – the way things are going? I don’t reckon he’s much chance of going through the same traumatic episodes with any of his own children.

    244. Robert Bryce says:

      My mother was a district nurse with the old Lanarkshire Health Board back in the day.

      As a healthcare professional she and her colleagues always felt that the government never done enough in the way of research and monitoring.
      I recall her talking about an orange dust in the homes of those she visited. They always believed is was some kind of fallout from the craig.

      I also remember swimming in the Calder and on two occasions I recall having a rash afterwards.

      As it turned out heavy industry wasn’t the only danger. There were a series of old dye ponds at the old paper mill as far away as Caldercruix. The ponds regularly overflowed into the Calder. There was some nasty stuff in them.

      To top it off we used catch trout (the ones that didn’t float by you belly up) and eat them.
      To think there’s radioactive waste in the area too is just fucking marvellous.

      Like you I hope it’s just a rumour. I will put my faith in the council being honest about it.

    245. Scaraben says:

      For Morag, re Depleted uranium in Boeing 747.
      From Wikipedia article on depleted uranium, section on Civilian applications, subsection on Trim weights in aircraft:-
      Aircraft that contain depleted uranium trim weights (such as the Boeing 747–100) may contain between 400 to 1,500 kg of DU. This application is controversial because the DU may enter the environment if the aircraft were to crash. The metal can also oxidize to a fine powder in a fire. Its use has been phased out in many newer aircraft. Boeing and McDonnell-Douglas discontinued using DU counterweights in the 1980s. Depleted uranium was released during the crash of El Al Flight 1862 on 4 October 1992, in which 152 kg was lost, but an extensive study concluded that there was no evidence to link depleted uranium from the plane to any health problems.

    246. Scaraben says:

      An earlier comment seems to have disappeared when I tried to edit it.
      According to the Wikipedia article on depleted uranium, some aircraft, including Boeing 747s, used DU for balance weights for the elevator; these have to be small but heavy. In later aircraft this practice was discontinued because of the possible risk of perhaps more than 100 kg of radioactive material being spread over a crash site, although because of its very long half-life DU is not highly radioactive. Whether the plane that crashed at Lockerbie was one which used DU I do not know, but it is quite likely that it did.

    247. Caroline Corfield says:

      I’d like to acquire a Cybernat mug, which shady corner does one need to hang around in order to procure one? The ones there used to be a picture of somewhere on the site, and now I look for them they’ve gone 🙁

    248. Vronsky says:

      @Iain B.

      If you don’t already know it, you’d probably be interested in Alex Cox’s blog.
      There’s also this:

    249. Adrian B says:

      @ Caroline  Corfield,
      I’d like to acquire a Cybernat mug, which shady corner does one need to hang around in order to procure one? click the image

    250. ianbrotherhood says:

      Cheers for that.
      I remember seeing that forum, long time ago, but didn’t realise it was THAT Alex Cox. Maybe helps explain why he hasn’t been getting any MSM gigs for a good while…

    251. Scaraben says:

      At the present time Labour have a small lead over the Tories in the opinion polls, but the pundits generally believe that this is not enough for them to win, especially as few people seem to see Ed Milliband as a credible future Prime Minister. Labour could also be hampered by the lack of possible coalition partners, now that the LibDems seem almost wedded to the Tories and that Labour prefer being in opposition to being in government with the SNP and Plaid Cymru. (If Labour move any further to the right, a Labour/UKIP coalition might just be possible.) Should independence supporters hope that Labour’s fortunes revive sufficiently for them to form the next UK government? My answer to that is ‘No’.
      One reason is that it seems likely that the prospect of another Tory-led government will boost the Yes vote in the referendum. There is another issue, however, which I will explain by putting forward three possible scenarios, which all start in the same way.
      The referendum result is (say) Yes 55%, No 45% with a 70% turnout. The UK government accepts the result and negotiations get underway over the arrangements for independence. In the May 2015 UK general election in England and Wales, the LibDems lose most of their seats, and the Tories and UKIP combined win just over half the seats. In Scotland, the Tories do as badly as usual, the LibDems do little better, and the SNP have a disappointing result as many potential SNP voters do not vote at all, seeing the election as irrelevant with independence less than a year away, or even believing that Scotland should not be participating at all. Labour therefore win a large majority of Scottish seats, giving them a small overall majority. Having lost the election, David Cameron resigns as party leader and is replaced by Boris Johnson.
      Scenario A
      The new Labour government continues the independence negotiations. When Scotland becomes formally independent in March 2016, and all the Scottish MPs leave the Commons, Labour lose their majority. Johnson and Farage announce their intention of forming a Tory/UKIP coalition and table a motion of no confidence, which they win. Milliband resigns as Prime Minister; Johnson is invited to form a government and does so, immediately passing a motion of confidence which allows him to remain as PM until the next election in 2020, by which time boundary changes will have made it even more difficult for Labour to win. (A change of government like this without a general election is allowed by the Fixed-term Parliaments Act 2011.)
      Scenario B
      The new Labour government continues the independence negotiations, but delays these as much as possible, perhaps insisting on renegotiating matters which have already been agreed to by the previous UK government. The Scottish government is forced to delay formal independence until after the Scottish elections in 2016. Labour use the resources of the British state to the full – propaganda by the BBC and dirty tricks by MI5 to smear the SNP – and widespread postal voting fraud, and win the election, if necessary as the leaders of a coalition with the other Unionist parties. The two Labour governments, Westminster and Holyrood, then agree that the referendum result is not a mandate for independence, as fewer than 40% of the Scottish electorate voted Yes, and cancel independence.
      Scenario C
      The new Labour government invokes the principle that a UK government is not bound by any pledges made by a previous government, and reneges on the Edinburgh Agreement. They refuse to accept the referendum result, justifying this with the fact that fewer than 40% of the Scottish electorate voted Yes, and cancel independence. If the Scottish government protests too strongly, and especially if they even hint at a possible unilateral declaration of independence, Westminster passes emergency legislation (probably with the support of many of the Tories) to shut it down. It is even possible that MI5 might carry out false-flag terrorist operations to to justify banning the SNP and arresting leading nationalists.
      Obviously, of these three scenarios, A is the one which should happen, if there is any decency left in the Labour party (but then this is the party which took the UK into an illegal war). Even if Labour are tempted to hang onto power, scenarios B and C would be very risky, and could easily lead to such a backlash against Labour in Scotland as to make them unelectable for generations. On the other hand, it is difficult for me to imagine Labour simultaneously giving up power at Westminster and handing Scotland over to their hated enemies, the SNP.

    252. Braco says:

      Or the SNP could avoid all confusion and risk by simply voting with their pro indy majority at Holyrood for a declaration of Independence shortly before the 2015 elections. Citing the undemocratic and disruptive nature of sending 59 temporary MPs to Westminster that could theoretically hold the balance of power in a country (during it’s final year of existence) they no longer have any long term democratic loyalty to, what with Indy negotiations ongoing and an imminent declaration of Independence on it’s way. Could you honestly see the rUK population wearing that scenario or any of yours?

      I can’t. That is why I just don’t think we will take part in the 2015 elections should we return a YES vote in 2014.

      Exciting just thinking about this stuff though, isn’t it. (smilywink)

    253. Caroline Corfield says:

      Thanks Adrian

    254. Vronsky says:

      Here are a couple of blogs by Carmelo Ruiz that I pop into occasionally.  The first is often in English and the second, although usually in Spanish, gives an interesting insight into environmental activism in Latin America.  They seem much better informed than we are.  Maybe they just guess it’s shit since it comes from the USA, and genetic engineering is another form of imperialism.  Which of course it is – corporate imperialism, though.

      Iain Brotherhood once suggested a virtual book club, so here’s a couple of recommendations on this topic:

      You’ll find a few bad reviews of the second book – don’t believe them.  It’s intentionally funny and tongue-in-cheek, but the science is fact and Crichton’s seemingly fanciful depiction of its commercial abuses are daily revealed as real.

    255. ianbrotherhood says:

      Confused about Syria?
      Worth a watch –

    256. CameronB says:

      @ ianbrotherhood
      Thanks for that very clear report, which unsurprisingly is in direct contradiction to the latest pronouncement by Tony Blair. Kind of ironic that the Quartet’s ‘Peace Envoy’ recommends action which resembles the plan for the middle east, as set out by Foreign Office spook Bernard Lewis (i.e. to bring about the destruction of Syria’s and Iran’s social infrastructure, to facilitate the Balkanisation of the middle east).

    257. CameronB says:

      Want to understand what’s happening too Syria?

    258. kininvie says:

      Iv’e only just discovered this quiet smoker’s corner, so if you’ll excuse the intrusion, I’ll light up and put forward a thought:
      What I’m seeing is that the setting up of the Scottish parliament has started a chain of unintended consequences whose ramifications seem to be rapidly spreading further than a mere yes/no in the referendum. In fact, I’m beginning to wonder whether we’ll actually have that referendum at all.
      Everything I read points to English nationalism growing fast and exerting increasing pressure on the UK govt, and the demands for English-only votes for english-only laws is only the latest instalment. But, as been pointed out this, is unworkable in practice, since a Labour govt dependent on Scots/Welsh votes would be unable to get any health/education etc legislation past that barrier.
      To which the answer being floated is an English parliament. And no doubt Boris would argue for a London parliament on top – and who is to say he is wrong?
      And as soon as you have separate English governance(s), you necessarily need a federal structure, or else the whole shooting match disintegrates…..
      So, what is going to happen? Here’s a possible scenario:
      Pressure grows. The rift between the LibDems and Tories widens. English MPs start refusiing to share the chamber with Scots/Welsh MPs when English-only matters are discussed. UKIP rises in the polls. Then it cleans up in England at the Euro-elections, while in Scotland/Wales it comes bottom. UKIP adds the promise of an English parliament to its manifesto for 2015…
      At that point the Union begins to look dead, whatever happens in Sept 2014. So maybe the LibDems see the opportunity to act as constitutional broker and ask the Scottish govt to postpone the referendum while a new settlement is worked out. With No still looking like being the majority, the Scottish govt agrees (making all the right noises meantime), and a constitutional convention sets about creating a Federation of Britain, to be voted on in 2015….
      Beyond the bounds of possibility?  We’ll see.

    259. AlexMcI says:

      Right folks I know this is seriously off topic, but missus Alex is right into this big brother nonsense. Are us people in Scotland so far removed from middle England. I mean I’m watching this pish and they are all going on about detective Dan the alpha male.
      well I would put money on my missus giving Dan a bit of a shoeing, and Pami is about seven stone. I would love to see Dan trying to take a quarter off weed of a couple of teenagers from possil. That in my opinion would really be comedy genius.

    260. CameronB says:

      @ ianbrotherhood
      That will be Taranaich’s pal told then? 😉

    261. Bugger (the Panda) says:

      This one for CameronB and Chick McGregor
      I have been rooting about for some years trying to fathom out the financial derivatives market and how it got so out of hand.
      In fact it is not to difficult to understand, greed and short term at that.
      However the profundity of the debt was way beyond my endeavours until I found this
      Basically it says that buried deep within Deutche Bank’s Annual Accounts is a wee gem of an entry.
      Deutche Bank’s naked exposure to the derivatives market is $72.4 Trillion. Yep 72.4 Trillion dollars.
      The article goes on to say that effectively DB is owed money as well and thus the net debt in an orderly meltdown is only, well in fact no body knows the actual value of these bits of IOU paper.
      To put it all in perspective the GDP of Germany is €2.7 trillion which makes the DB’s debt about 18 times the GDP of Germany.
      I believe that nearly all of this was chalked up by way of funny subsidiaries in Ireland which allowed DB to get round the German banking rules, which were certainly stricter than London which had hee haw.
      Thus when the shit hit the fan in Eire, Germany moved double quick to repatriate the debt and wipe the traces clean in Ireland.

    262. CameronB says:

      @ ianbrotherhood
      Thought-terminating cliché.

    263. Chic McGregor says:

      Ah!  I thought your post in comments was some cryptic quip I didn’t understand but then I found this.  Will try and gather together thoughts and findings I have on the subject over the last few decades and post them here.  May take a wee while.

    264. CameronB says:

      Completely OT. Just for a bit of light relief, I think it might be worth investing 45 minutes watching this. Probably one of the better music documentaries I’ve watched. Filmed the year after I was born and two before Gene’s untimely death, it also gives a little snap shot of British society, before the decline was noticeable. Plus Gene is as cool as.

      Gene Vincent – Rock and Roll Singer (1969 UK Tour Documentary)

    265. Vronsky says:

      Start here.

    266. ianbrotherhood says:

      Give us a clue mister – what’s your take on it?
      I’ve never seen the presenter, Malone, not familiar with his work. Is he just the latest whizz-kid who’s been given the chance to create an illustrated version of his Phd?
      These programmes are delicious to watch, but I don’t know if I should be looking out for anything specific – chuck us a bone man!
      The Eiffel Tower. Yeah. In 2002, must’ve been May, I was there with my wife and very small weans. We had brought bread and cheese, settled down out of the sun, under the tower, watched the crowds.
      It was very busy, but it was also just 8 months after the 9/11 attacks and there were armed troops everywhere. For some reason my attention was drawn to a tall, heavily-built guy with a beard, maybe fifty, sixty feet away from us, and he was directly below the centre of the tower. Normal dress, nothing unusual-looking about him, but he kept looking around, as if checking for someone, then facing back to look at the same point.
      His wife/girlfriend was approx thirty feet away from him, had a camera raised to her face. She waited, he kept scanning around him, she stayed still, ready. Then he did a very swift 360-scan about him, faced forward, stood to attention, and gave a full Nazi salute which lasted no more than two seconds, presumably just long enough for her to get the image he wanted. Then they nonchalantly strolled away, arm-in-arm, the man walking tall, very pleased with himself.
      Not sure why I’m even writing about this. It’s just one of those wee vignettes that linger in the heid.

    267. ianbrotherhood says:

      Traffic on WoS is especially thin tonight, so I’m lobbing this in for no particular reason, only I’ve got this bottle to get to the end of, and need something to do until it’s done.
      My sister gave me a book for my 50th, last month. A well-battered looking object: ‘The History of Glasgow From the Earliest Period to the Present Time‘ by George MacGregor, First Edition, 1881.
      It’s one of those ones, you’re tempted to just wrap it up and stick it away out of the sunlight, but I had a read at it, and inside the front cover, a handwritten dedication, in copperplate style, ‘George Sinclair Dunnet, from Elma Campbell Gibson, with gratitude, April -May – June, 1936
      The guy’s name? Couldn’t find it anywhere.
      But ‘Elma’? Turns out she was then married to this dude:

    268. The Man in the Jar says:

      Tam doesn’t seem such a bad guy, a product of his time I guess.
      I have a modern book “Once upon a time in Glasgow” by John Watson published by NWP. A collection of short stories going way back. I have a “favourite” story from it. Seemingly an entire English cavalry regiment stationed in Glasgow were banned from Glasgow and posted to India after one officer rode his horse at full gallop through the Argyle Arcade to win a bet. He was prosecuted and fined £5.00 As the bet was for much more than £5.00 he left the court laughing. The owner of the arcade was so enraged he got one of his friends who published a newspaper to help him campaign for justice. The campaign was a success hence the posting to India for the regiment. Bet that the offending officer was popular after that. Lots of other stories of the “ye coudnae make it up” variety.
      Glasgow, you have to love and hate it!

    269. ianbrotherhood says:

      The bit I keep going back to is this –
      He had a career in business, becoming secretary of the British Steel Federation and financial director of the British Iron and Steel Corporation.’
      To me, that means he was right up-there. He was hob-nobbing with the big guys, even prior to WW2.
      Others are better placed to draw obvious comparisons with Salmond – point is, we’re seeing ‘history-repeating’. Difference is – this time around – folk aren’t relying on Pathe News and/or the dead-tree mob for their information.

    270. The Man in the Jar says:

      I can see your concerns but I wouldn’t let it bother me. Agreed that he was “right up-there but he seems to have had a passion for Scotland. Read and enjoy the book is my advice.
      Regarding the media and politics thinking back to my book on Glasgow and other historic events that took place in Scotland’s town and cities something strikes me as a bit odd.
      Scots have a great and long history of rioting, protesting and civil unrest usually with good cause 1919? Back then they got their news from newspapers, pamphlets and from word of mouth all eagerly consumed by the public. And if that public were not amused they let their feelings be known beyond doubt.
      What has gone wrong? Okay we now have the web and thankfully not the riots but where is the passion in the ordinary man and woman in the street. I wonder where the thirst for the truth and justice has gone from the ordinary punter.

    271. Vronsky says:

      @ianb re Malone.

      Malone is the author of the Golem XIV blog.  Don’t read it if you’re a worrier. 

      Concerning the documentary, I’ve always been one of those who think that economics is hokum designed to support whatever status quo the rulers currently wish to maintain.  I studied a fair amount of maths in my time, and can’t help noticing that while many economists flash around a lot of scary looking formulae, they never take the trouble to prove (or even offer a little evidence) that the maths is a valid model of the phenomenon it is being used to describe.  The Laffer Curver is a case in point – it should be called the Laughter Curve.

      Further than this, most mathematical equations do not have solutions – we concern ourselves with the very small subset which do.  If there is any mathematics of economics why should it lie (as the economists seem to think) entirely within the the realm of the very few equations we can solve?   Anyway (and Malone’s main point) there is clear evidence that economic systems behave chaotically – they are in principle unpredictable.  The impression that we can control or predict their behaviour is illusory.  A wee look at this might help paint the picture.

    272. ianbrotherhood says:

      Hmmm. Good stuff. Cheers.
      From Blair McD’s point of view, is the invitation to attend a WoS public debate a ‘black swan event’?

    273. Vronsky says:

      “From Blair McD’s point of view, is the invitation to attend a WoS public debate a ‘black swan event’?”
      I’m seriously interested in your idea of having Blair Jenkins debate with a tub of lard.  Let’s do it, don’t care if it’s not orginal, it’s relevant and accurate.  Then we YouTube this encounter again and again.   Let’s expose the ‘don’t knows’ to the canary shit they think they need to know more about.
      Like watching movies set in Scotland and spotting locations?  Musical equivalent: can you spot all the folk tunes in this?
       I went to see an Oistrakh concert in Glasgow, bent many old contacts out of shape to get tickets. Useless bugger died the night before. Memorable stand-in performance by Ruggiero Ricci. Sadly lovely evening.

    274. Braco says:

      just to also say, in kind of private, that my CamereenB reference was genuinely meant as a lighthearted joint joke at WOS expense.
      I saw your pleading with the Rev to change it the other day and I assumed it was some computer glitch on the Rev’s side. I also really liked the sound of CamereenB as a moniker and it brought a smile to my face at the time.
      I really didn’t think about it. I must have felt there was enough water under the posting bridge between us to get away with that sort of thing, but these judgements are usually wrong and to be avoided.
      As I said over on my other post, sometimes my crap get’s through!  So, again sorry for any misunderstanding.

    275. CameronB says:

      Please don’t worry yourself. As I said, I was only a little bit surprised. There hasn’t been enough time for the hurt and anguish to set in. 😉
      The name thing was purely down to my incompetence. I didn’t even know there was something going on with names on WoS.
      Anyway, good to see you back posting.

    276. Braco says:

      Cheers min.

    277. tartanfever says:

      Nice little jibe from the BBC website over the football match tonight. In it’s own little sub-headline box is this charmer:
      ‘Kenny Miller’s goal made him the first Scotland-born player to score for his country in open play against England at Wembley since John Wark in 1979’
      The rest of the report is all about the match, analysis and so on. I wonder why the BBC feel the need to point out this matter of nationality when in recent weeks they have completely ignored the fact that the England cricket team contains numerous players born in South Africa and other countries.

    278. Archie [not Erchie] says:

      Avatar by Gravatar [Helpful Hints]
      If you are of a mind to change the Avatar next to your posting name then its really very easy. The reason you have a ‘space invader’ type avatar in the first place is because WordPress in conjunction with Gravatar allocated it on your very first post to WOS. Now WordPress and Gravatar still work hand in hand as you will see during the process of personalising your avatar.
      If like me you have photos/flags/emblems stored on your PC, normally in the ‘My Pics’ folder, then you will need to make a mental note so that you can find your chosen picture later. However you may like an image you have seen on the Internet but be wary of copyright issues.
      So lets do it :
      1. Log on to the home page which is blue over white and has a box for you to enter your email address – ‘Get Your Gravatar’ Click on this after you have put your email address in.
      2. If you do not already have a WordPress account then go to ‘Sign Up For Free’ and click.
      3. You will then see a a window with 3 boxes – 2 of them are already filled in for you but you can change the username if you want. However you should complete the password box. When you click the ‘Sign Up’ box at the bottom of the page it will send an activation email to your InBox which you must acknowledge by clicking on the blue ‘Activate Account’ button.
      4. Now you can sign in to your Gravatar account and begin to choose your personal avatar. Click ‘Next’ and your choice will be uploaded where you can size and/or crop it. Click ‘Finish’ and choose your G, PG, R or X rating.
      5. Click on the lower avatar as this is the active one with rating and then ‘Confirm’
      Job Done.
      I havent tried it yet but I guess you can put as many of your chosen images in your Gravatar account and they will appear on the lower level for you to pick at your leisure. You can of course delve into WordPress at any time
      When you have closed all the windows, try logging back in and your new avatar will appear top right of your Gravatar home page. Run your mouse pointer over it and a drop down menu will appear so that you can add profile etc and once finished then ‘Log Out’

    279. Albalha says:

      As some of you may have read I am keen to look further at the possibility of a coordinated advertising campaign; billboards, Glasgow underground, bus stops etc.
      Anyway some people have said they’re interested too. I am going to look into the costs, logisitics in more detail.
      Stuart has kindly said he’d happily publicise any initiative on WoS. At this stage anyone who’s keen to get involved, particularly on website creation, I’ve some ideas, but really thoughts on anything re advertising, sites etc welcome ….you can e mail me at balharry1 [at] yahoo [dot] com

    280. Kendomacaroonbar says:

      check out some short Promo teasers I made for this Wingsland site on YouTube . You can find it here
      and here

    281. Albalha says:

      Thanks for that. I assume you do static graphics as well? For billboards, posters etc that’s what’s needed. If you’re interested in getting in touch e mail me and we can discuss it further.

    282. BobW says:

      I’ve parked these resizable PDF files here, could be used for badges/ T-shirts etc.
      Rev. if you feel there of little use, just delete this post.

    283. Robert Kerr says:

      My Kerr tartan seems to be called “Hunting” rather than “Ancient”. or “Ancient Hunting”
      You shall be pleased to know that there is no red at all, blue, black and green only.
      The Rev likes links so…
      Looking forward to marching with the colours.
      Soar Alba

    284. Scaraben says:

      I have just come across an article on the ‘A Thousand Flowers’ site, which I will not link to as the title itself is offensive, and posted the following comment, which may or may not appear.
      In my opinion, as a gay man who has known transgendered people, this article is one of the biggest loads of over-the-top, sanctimonious claptrap I have read in a long time.
      Bradley/Chelsea Manning has not had gender reassignment surgery or even, as far as I know, hormone treatment, and therefore is still physically and legally male. At this stage, Manning’s gender is still ambiguous (physically male but psychologically female), and so whether someone should refer to Manning as male or female is debatable. Stuart Campbell is not being unreasonable, and I can fully understand why he would be very annoyed with people insisting that he call someone in Manning’s current position a woman. He is having to put up with a great deal of abuse because of his very effective support for independence; it is understandable if he does not have much patience left to deal with accusations of political incorrectness. After all, Manning regrettably has much worse things to worry about than being called a man so soon after his/her announcement. It is a great pity that English does not have a gender-neutral pronoun other than ‘it’, which cannot be applied to a person without being extremely insulting.
      I do hope Manning does get the gender reassignment surgery (s)he obviously desperately wants (although I have my doubts as to whether this will be allowed as long as (s)he is in the clutches of the American military or prison system), and when this happens I will fully support her right to be treated in every way as a woman, and criticise anyone who does not respect this. I also respect the right of those who wish to treat someone in Manning’s present position with regards to gender identity as a woman. However, screaming that calling Manning male is ‘transphobia’ or ‘hate speech’ or ‘playing with people’s lives’ is ridiculous, and could alienate many people who are not obsessively into LGBT rights and political correctness. This article has the potential to do much more harm to LGBT rights than anything Stuart Campbell has written.

    285. Rev. Stuart Campbell says:

      Very reasonably put, and I agree with every word. Cheers for doing that.

    286. Scaraben says:

      More than 24 hours since I posted my comment on the Thousand Flowers website, and it still has not appeared. It appears they are happy to criticise, but not to accept criticism. The bookmark to their messy, badly designed site has now been removed from my computer.

    287. Morag says:

      Oh dear.  I liked Thousand Flowers, but I don’t like non-posting of reasonable criticism one tiny  little bit.

    288. Morag says:

      My Kerr tartan seems to be called “Hunting” rather than “Ancient”. or “Ancient Hunting”
      You shall be pleased to know that there is no red at all, blue, black and green only.
      That’s nice.  Everything I have is red and green and black and looks like Christmas decorations.

    289. ianbrotherhood says:

      Welcome to the wonderful world of WoS Quarantine…

    290. ianbrotherhood says:

      Here’s a wee reminder of the ‘stuff’ that (at least in part) prompted the establishment of this space:

    291. ianbrotherhood says:

      ..and here (he said, as if to himself), is a good example of why the story doesn’t work any more (if it ever did). The ‘Comments’ say it all:

    292. Geoff Huijer says:

      George Carlin explains how ‘society’ works and how people continually vote for people that do not have their interests at heart. Westminster anyone?

    293. ianbrotherhood says:

      Superb. Never tire of watching it – it’s the same length as a ‘normal’ pop-song, but contains a lifetime’s wisdom. Unbeatable.

    294. CameronB says:

      Some good advice here. 🙂

    295. CameronB says:

      Not to be confused with this MindHead. A bit American perhaps, but a positive message none the less.

    296. ianbrotherhood says:

      …nothing to say, just holding a seat for someone, eh? That alright? Well, she might turn up, she might no, it’s just that way, ken, ye never know…canny say ah’m that bothered, but it’s nice to be nice, eh?…

    297. CameronB says:

      Did you hear the one about the one armed man…….
      Seriously though, I’m getting a bit frustrated by all these assurances that Morag knows best, is a critical thinker, and has destroyed the ‘truther’ argument entirely beyond doubt. All we have is her word on these matters, as she has undeniably rejected all invitations to discuss the issues. It is as if time and scientific understanding of the events has frozen solid in her mind. Perhaps she was too busy writing her book to notice the seismic developments that have occurred in our understanding, all of it in the PUBLIC DOMAIN.

    298. ianbrotherhood says:

      Morag has steadfastly refused to come here. When she did, a few months ago, to view such-and-such a link, she retreated, and posted that her ‘IQ had dropped 40 points’ from doing so. Someone retorted (I believe it was Vronsky) that it was ‘a loss she could ill-afford’.
      But she didn’t rise to it. Not here. Her brief appearance, above, can probably be ascribed to an irresistible urge to be involved in any and every discussion, even if it takes her into ‘dangerous’ territory.
      9/11 is the territory she dare not breach – all the claims about her having done this, that, ‘got the T-shirt and spat out the remains on the carpet’ etc is all bluff.
      Hey, if you you want to be a politician? You avoid the berserker material. The ‘truth’ doesn’t even come into it. That much is obvious.
      What isn’t so obvious is why Morag – as a powerful advocate of non-PC Lockerbie investigation – scathingly dismisses anyone who dares raise 9/11.
      One last point – Morag is reading this.
      So, Morag, the invitation remains, and the space is reserved – come here and talk about it. I can’t be the only one who’d love to hear how you demolished each and every argument that we ‘Truthers’ struggle with.

    299. Albalha says:

      My first set of YESMarch photos

    300. CameronB says:

      As I have been directed here if I have anything further to say regarding the conduct of a particular contributor, I would point out that I have only indicated my views once re. what I think happened on 9/11, and that was earlier on this thread (21 June @ 3:00pm). It read;
      @ ianbrotherhood
      Seeing as how the subject has come up, without my prompting, I suppose I should spill the beans as to my view on what happened. Haven’t a clue. My view on what didn’t happen, could be summed up as the official conspiracy myth. I know that strength of popularity is no test of correctness, but on this occasion I am happy to share the majority view.
      Opinion polls about 9/111 conspiracy theories
      As such, all Morags’ assertions that I’m a wacko conspiracy theory nut job who is constantly putting forward conspiracy theory and seeking to draw her in to OT debates (my track record), is patently untrue.
      Morag IS SIMPLY A LIAR. A common characteristic amongst bullies.
      To all those that suggest we should bury the hatchet and pull together for a common cause, I actually offered Morag my handshake on the hill, and was less than impressed by the ‘lukewarm’ response I received.
      Also, with regards to this most recent spat, did anyone notice it all kicked off when I corrected Morag re. pensioners and TV licenses, on the and-now-over-to-the-state-broadcaster thread?
      Hopefully Morag will be able to abide to playing the ball in the future, rather than the person. I don’t have much hope for that, nor confidence in the impartiality of the ‘referee’, to be quite frank.

    301. CameronB says:

      Apologies for not getting back to you re. poster campaign to promote Wings.
      I’m having second thoughts about putting my name to that. Will get back to you in the not to distant future.

    302. Albalha says:

      It’s not that it’s to encourage people to register to vote and get out to vote, it’s not a WoS campaign. Stuart, when I e mailed, said he’d tell people about whatever it is we decide to do, as a way of letting others know if we do a fundraiser. I raised it on the site as I thought some people on here would be keen to get inolved. Anyway a few of us are planning to get together soon, my e mail is still above if you want to get in touch and find out more.

    303. ianbrotherhood says:

      Not sure why you’re having misgivings, but hope you’ll reconsider – would be great to meet. I’m up for it, and intend to be there at the Shawlands gig next week, and possibly even the pow-wow the week after.
      To be honest, I’m not even that sure what Alison has up her sleeve, but that, for me, is part of the attraction – I’m sure it’ll be interesting and worthwhile, and it’s a thrill to be part of what’s going on…mighty oaks and all that.

    304. CameronB says:

      I appears that I picked up the wrong end of the stick re. posters. I was under the impression that they were to promote Wings. Now that I have be corrected on this, I will contact Albalha next week.
      This may well be my last post here, so hopefully it won’t be removed.
      I’m simply no longer convinced of the merits of a site where particular individuals are allowed to call others fuckwits, conspiracy theory loonies, etc., and stamp on every opinion that does not fit with her particular view of the world, without being reprimanded or sanctioned in the slightest. To do so immediately after the Rev. has told us all to “play the ball”, and completely escape sanction, might lead the more conspiracy minded to imagine that the Rev. is Morag’s love child. 🙂
      Then for the Rev. to drop an f-bomb immediately after I have respectfully asked posters to moderate their language so as not to potentially limit the readership. Anyone might think the Rev. was taking the piss, or that journalism isn’t the only thing he has in common with David Torrence.

    305. Rev. Stuart Campbell says:

      “Then for the Rev. to drop an f-bomb immediately after I have respectfully asked posters to moderate their language so as not to potentially limit the readership. Anyone might think the Rev. was taking the piss, or that journalism isn’t the only thing he has in common with David Torrence.”

      Oh for heaven’s sake don’t be so melodramatic. I told BOTH of you to behave. (And I’m sorry, but this site is incredibly swearing-free considering the strength of feelings people have about the issue, but the odd one will sneak out now and again, and I don’t think the average person will have a massive hissy fit about it. I’ve noticed no increase in frequency, and we seem to have survived it in the past.)

      If you’re going to post links to conspiracy-theory websites, you already know it’s going to wind people up, so either don’t do it or deal with what happens.

      Jesus, what is the MATTER with everyone tonight? You seriously think the ENTIRE SITE, everything we do, is rendered worthless because you and Morag get in a squabble now and again? Get over yourself, man.

    306. CameronB says:

      What conspiracy-theory websites would these be?
      I don’t think your readership will decrease because of a bit of bad language, but it might not reach the audience it potentially could.
      Anyway, I wouldn’t want you to take your eye of the ball. Your journalism is the main thing, but perhaps you could show a little more leadership? This is your site after all.

      Jesus, what is the MATTER with everyone tonight? You seriously think the ENTIRE SITE, everything we do, is rendered worthless because you and Morag get in a squabble now and again? Get over yourself, man.

      Now you are also putting words in mouth. Please stop it as I have already be defiled by Morag. 😉

    307. ianbrotherhood says:

      @Rev & Cameron-
      Youse seem to have crossed wires at some point…
      …and I haven’t the faintest where it do be…

    308. Shinty says:

      Question for the Scottish historians amongst us.
      I am trying to educate myself on Scottish history,(having received little at school.)
      I have just finished a book on King Robert the Bruce and his wife was Elizabeth?, which got me thinking about the furore over our present queen being QE2 in Scotland. ie she should be QE1 as we have never had a QE.
      If I have totally missed something, forgive me, but I would like to clear this up as it’s doing my head in at present.

    309. Baheid says:

      This might give you some answers.
      List of Titles and Honours

      3rd para down
      I remember as a kid my oldman going on about the post boxes in Scotland ‘should have QE1 on them’.

    310. Shinty says:

      Thanks Baheid, I am old enough to remember the stooshie caused by the ship being launched on the Clyde, I was but a babe, but I do remember the launch being on TV and my Mum was fair vexed, to say the least.
      However, this still doesn’t help me as surely King Robert’s wife, (Queen Elizabeth) was QE1?
      I am sure their must be some logical explanation – I certainly never thought about it until I read this book, now I am confused.

    311. Jimbo says:

      Hi Shinty, 
      Elizabeth de Burgh was the wife of King Robert I.
      You’re right about the present queen. She is rightly Elizabeth I of Scots. However, since the Union of the Crowns in 1603, kings and queens in Britain have always been allocated the English accession number – e.g. King James VI became James I & James VII became James II. I’m told it is the monarch’s prerogative to name themselves as they please.

    312. kininvie says:

      Hi Shinty,
      I’m on shaky ground here, as it’s far from my area of expertise,  but as I understand it, Elizabeth de Burgh was Queen consort. She was not Queen Regnant (Queen in her own right) so she doesn’t go down in history as Queen Elizabeth (any more than Prince Phillip goes down as King Phillip or Victoria’s Albert as King Albert) Contrast that with Mary, Queen of Scots, or Elizabeth I of England, both of whom were queens in their own right (ie by inheritance)

    313. Baheid says:

      Elizabeth de Burgh was QE1 of Scotland
      Elizabeth Tudor was QE1 of England & Ireland
      Suppose that would make Lizzy QE2 of all GB, aye-no maybe.
      Or maybe she should be QE1 of UK/GB as Burgh and Tudor were pre 1603
      House of Bruce

    314. Shinty says:

      Thanks guys – it just confused me as why the fuss over the ship QE2 & the post boxes ER 11, as Elizabeth de Burgh was crowned at Scone which makes her QE1 of Scots (as opposed to todays format which would make her Princess Elizabeth (Albert/Phillip etc)
      So I guess it must be the consort/regnant thing.

    315. Jimbo says:

      Hi Shinty,
      Ignore what Baheid says.
      Elizabeth de Burgh was not QEI of Scots. There never has been a QEI of Scots. That’s why people were destroying the ER II letter boxes back in the 1950s.

    316. Archie [not Erchie] says:

      @ Shinty and others – After your first post about the Elizabeth 1 subject I spent some time looking and trying to figure it all out. Its nae wonder your heid was buzzin. Not sure if the Stone of Scone was still in Scotland when Elizabeth de Burgh married Bruce.

      Dual numbering of Kings was only started with James I / VI.

      However during my website travels I got sidetracked to Heraldry and the past and present Royal Coat of Arms which shows a Lion and a Unicorn as the supporters left and right [sinister and dexter] Some variations appear and one coat of arms for Scotland shows 2 unicorns. Interesting enough but on closer inspection you will see that the Unicorn always has a collar and chain fixed to the ground.

      The Lion is England and the Unicorn is Scotland. Explanation is this – The mythical? Unicorn is a dangerous beast but it has been captured and tamed. I just about put my heid into the screen at that point. Apparently if the chain is broken [which it never is] then that indicates the Unicorn [Scotland] had been captured but now released.

      The symbolism of all of this makes me sick and thanks to your post I will be on a milk and dry biscuit diet for the rest of the day. 🙂

    317. Jimbo says:

      Don’t get upset by that, Archie.
      The Scottish Royal Arms (pre Union of Crowns) had two unicorns chained to the ground – for the reason you already stated, that they were considered dangerous beasts. Symbolically this had nothing to do with the 1603 Union of Crowns or 1706 Treaty of Union – it’s simply the case that they copied the original Scottish version.
      As an interesting aside: The Lion Rampant was not always the heraldic symbol of the Scottish monarch. It was the device of William I (William the Lion) 1143 – 1214. When he came to the throne after the death of his brother, Malcolm IV, in 1165, William chose to keep his Lion Rampant instead of adopting the Royal Arms. From his death it passed from monarch to monarch, but it was King Robert I (1274 – 1329) who officially adopted it as the symbol of Scotland’s monarchs.

    318. Shinty says:

      Thanks Jimbo – my mistake about Elizabeth de Burgh being crowned at Scone – the link above referring to House of Bruce – states King & Queen of Scots – so that needs sorted.

      The book I was reading (which started me off) only refers to her as Queen Elizabeth hence my confusion. So I guess although she was Queen Elizabeth, she doesn’t count as she was only queen through her marriage to Bruce.
      Now looking for a book on Wallace – any suggestions. Something readable please. 
      Out of interest, I read a book on Rob Roy last year and was completely taken back by the man, not the vagabond I was brought up to believe he was at all. (Sanitization of our history for sure)

    319. Jimbo says:

      Hi Shinty,
      I’ve read just about every book I can lay my hands on about that era in Scottish history. Probably the easiest to get through on Wallace is: William Wallace Brave Heart (not the fictional version) by Dr. James Mackay.
      Best book I ever read on King Robert I: Robert Bruce: And the Community of the Realm of Scotland by GWS Barrow.
      Best book I’ve read on James Douglas: The Black Douglas by I M Davis
      Best I’ve read on the Treaty of Union: Andrew Fletcher and the Treaty of Union by Paul Henderson Scott and Scotland’s Ruine: Lockhart of Carnwath’s Memoirs of the Union by George Lockhart of Carnwath.
      Any books out of print can normally be borrowed for you from your local library. Years ago I searched for an out of print Scottish history book. My library (Falkirk) borrowed it for me from a library in Aberdeen – so don’t be afraid to ask them.

      Re Rob Roy. There’s the mythical Rob Roy of legend and there’s the factual books available. Some of them tell you he was a spy for the English – Totally untrue – they conflate Hanoverian for English. It was a fight between two factions from the same royal house – not a Scotland v England as some would have it.

    320. Jimbo says:

      Hi shinty,
      Meant to add: Try and read as many versions as possible. Some will tell you something that others omit or think unimportant. It wasn’t until I was on about my sixth history book on King Robert I that I learned that he’d had umpteen illegitimate children who all married into families across Scotland – not to mention his Stewart descendants who produced hundreds of bastards too. That is why, because Scotland’s gene pool was so small, just about every Scot can claim to be descended from him. 

    321. Shinty says:

      Thank you again Jimbo, it’s good to get a list of books from a fellow Scot as I do believe there are some which claim to be history but are a ‘sanitised’ versions. I will do as you suggest and seek out other authors of the same subject.

      I’m a bit of a lame brain and sometimes have to read the book twice in order to digest it all, so no doubt it will satisfy my retirement years when the time comes 🙂

      Oh and thanks for the ‘Black Douglas’ book – he is another I really want to know more about.

    322. Archie [not Erchie] says:

      @ Jimbo and Shinty – Thanks for your input and it fairly gave me a jab up the jacksie to learn more about history that I should have known about. Being a Fifer born in Dunfermline and as a boy playing in the Abbey grounds, I had no conception of the enormity of Scottish history around me and under my feet.
      I am making up for it now. Thanks guys.

    323. Lianachan says:

      @everybody who’s been talking about history
      This is an excellent website for buying academic books at very low prices.  I bought some archaeology textbooks from there last month, and they were 84p (aye, £0.84) each.  Amazon was selling them for between £30 and £180.
      The ones I bought are second hand, from university libraries, but are in very good condition  – certainly good enough to use as reference books.  Heartily recommend that site.

    324. Jimbo says:

      Thanks for the link, Lianachan.
      Some good bargains in there.

    325. Archie [not Erchie] says:

      @ Lianachan – Wow! That link is a bit of a gem. I am drooling over the Scottish history part and am posting a link supporting yours for others to find easily. Thanks for that.

    326. Shinty says:

      Great link, thank you!

    327. DonDeefLugs says:
      Use the above link to add a ‘yes’ badge to your twitter or Facebook profile picture.

    328. Andy-B says:

      Hey Rev just noticed your Quarantine thingy comment.
      Okay I do apologise if I said a wee bit more than I should about the 9/11 WTC7 collapse, and I suppose it could be used by the unionists as a means to imply that some of us are well conspiracy nuts.

    329. ianbrotherhood says:

      Welcome. You’ll like it here – it’s a Morag-free zone and we talk about whatever we like.

    330. Bugger (the Panda) says:

      having met her, I have no doubt that Morag is a nice concerned person but what she did with thread on the BBC bias was the best bit of innocent trolling I have ever seen, if it was trolling.

      So whether it was or not, it was effective.

      My take is that she is a Jack Russel terrier with a bone 3 times her size.

      She can’t get her gnashers around it to chew it down, nor can she carry it away. She sits beside it snarling at anyone coming near her, whether they just want to pat her or take her bone away for a size reduction.

      It is her bone and she will not budge.

    331. Bugger (the Panda) says:

      Ianbrotherhood Malone was the first blogger I ever read, say 6+ years ago or so, who was predicting, with facts and figures, the various collapses and debt interdependency in Southern Euroland and the inevitability of the Eire bank implosion relating it to the off books hanky panky of Deutche Bank who circumvented Germany’s stiffer banking laws by going offshore in a virtual tax free zone in Dublin created by Charlie Haughy.
      Deutche Banks derivatives debt is sitting on their books today as a nominal 3 times the World GDP. However for the purposes of accountancy they estimate only to be several times the GDP of Germany, I think.
      Merkel repatriated that in double quick time when the ramifications of it were revealed to her. She then bribed, menaced the Irish Gov to assume the other debt to deflect away from her debt grab. In fact Ireland was, encouraged, as were the S European economies to borrow Euros at virtually 0% and lend them at low rates to buy German cars. Of course that leaked into the housing market which eventually went pear shaped.
      Malone also predicted that the real unexploded bomb is Italy and this in turn leads to the major French and German banks ( Deutche also).
      Grown carrots and potatoes if you want to survive.

    332. Bugger (the Panda) says:

      Deutsche Bank deriatives debt is $72.8 Trillion according to Zero Hedge

      Netted down for payments due on from the Magic Roundabout Debt Carousel means the DB net debt is only $777 billion. The German GDP is over $ 2 billion so I was wrong earlier about what Deutsche banks debt vis a vis German GDP. That is, if you accept DB’s analyses. Same must go RBS.

      The World GDP is about $72 trillion, same as DB’s nominal indebtedness

    333. Andy-B says:

      Thanks for the welcome, in quarantine, looks like I lit the fuse on the stick of dynamite, on the upside it did get many varied opinions, as for @Morag, I still value her input as I do yours.

    334. Jimbo says:

      If its Ok I’d like to, from time to time, give some examples of Scotland’s successes in history.
      It’s not a new phenomenon. For years we’ve been told we’re too wee, too poor and too stupid by those who consider the Scots to be an inferior race. The cringers among us tell us “we cannae dae it like others can”. And yet we have always had a long history of being inventive, adaptive and having the qualities that are needed to succeed. Here’s a wee bit from the early 16th century:
      English history:
      Henry VIII (1491 – 1547 – reigned 1509 – 1547) is credited with establishing the English Navy.  He was known as “Father of the English Navy”. He acquired a fleet of 24 ships, the largest being the The “Henry Grace à Dieu” (popularly known as “Great Harry”).  
      The “Henry Grace à Dieu” was a carrack or great ship of the English Navy (she was Contemporary with “Mary Rose” – launched 1511 – sank 1545). She was ordered in 1509, laid down at Woolwich, England, in 1512 and launched in 1514.
      She was 165 ft long. Her displacement was c 1000 tons burthen.  Her complement was 700 – 1000. Her armament was 161 guns:  20 X broadside cannon (later increased to 43) and 141 light swivel guns. English historians claim she was the largest ship in the world.
      Scottish history:
      King James IV (1473 – 1513 – reigned 1488-1513) is credited with establishing the Royal Scottish Navy before Henry VIII accessed the English throne.  He acquired a fleet of 38 ships, the largest being the “Michael” (popularly known as “Great Michael”).  
      The “Michael” was a carrack or great ship of the Royal Scottish Navy. She was ordered in 1505, laid down at Newhaven, Scotland, in 1507 and launched in 1511. 
      She was 240 ft long. Her displacement was c 1000 tons burthen. Her complement was 1,420: 300 sailors, 120 gunners & 1000 marines. Her armament was 62 guns: 24 broadside cannon, 3 basilisk and 30 smaller guns (later replaced with 36 main guns).  She was the largest ship in world.  
      After the disaster at Flodden, “Michael” was sold to the French in 1514 and renamed “La Grande Nef d’Ecosse” (“The Great Ship of Scotland”). She is thought to have taken part in the French attack on England in 1545 that led to the sinking of the “Mary Rose”at the battle of the Solent.
       NB. The “Michael” was the first of the great ships, a forerunner of the later ship of the line. She was said to have carried among her armament the great Scottish cannon, “Mons Meg”, which had a calibre of 22 inches. This made her the warship with the largest calibre gun in history – larger even than those of the great battleships of WWII. Maintaining a fleet of 38 ships, not to mention a ship of that size, did not come cheap. Scotland must have been very wealthy at that time.
      When told James IV was building a large ship, Henry VIII ordered the “Henry Grace à Dieu” in an attempt not to be outdone by the Scots – he failed by 75 ft. The “Henry Grace à Dieu” was merely the largest English ship.

    335. The Man in the Jar says:

      Thanks for that I have heard about “The Great Michael” before but not as you have compared it to the “Henry Grace a Dieu” The Royal Scottish Navy doesn’t get the credit that it deserves most folk are unaware that such a thing ever existed. 

    336. The Man in the Jar says:

      Jimbo, Shinty
      Looks like we have similar taste in literature. I am biased as I knew the late David R. Ross (AKA The Big Warmer) not the most accurate historian but a truly patriotic one. His “On the trail of” series are fun as they include detailed instructions on how to locate numerous historic sites. Handy for a Sunday drive into the country. His last book “James The Good: The Black Douglas” is a good read. 
      I am “lucky” my Fathers family ground zero covenanter ancestors, Mothers family cleared from Knoydart pretty much ground zero Jacobites so I get to sympathise with both sides. 
      If I may recommend a book on “The 45” “Bare Arsed Banditi” by Maddie Craig. She also wrote “Dam Rebel Bitches” It is also refreshing to have a womans perspective on such events. In BAB there is a series of letters from The provost of Glasgow who raised a regiment to defend Glasgow against the Jacobites only to have the government say “Jolly good we will send them to defend Stirling!” The increasing panic from the aforesaid provost is obvious in the letters going back and forth.
      You know, whether it is Jacobite, Covenanter or in service of “The Crown” we should always honour those Scots who gave their lives for what they understood at the time to be in Scotlands best interests.

    337. Shinty says:

      I am sure I am not alone in knowing nothing of ‘Great Michael’ – though no surprise that I have heard of the Mary Rose!
      Thanks for posting that, very interesting.
      Man in the Jar – my ancestors were Jacobites, but as you say they all fought for what they believed to be in the best interest of Scotland and her people. Unlike today when it is purely self interest.

      The book I read on Rob Roy was by WH Murray, I was completely taken by surprise as I grew up thinking he was nothing more than a cattle thief. He should be celebrated more and the mythical legend put to bed once and for all. (Much of this blame lies at the door of none other than Walter Scott)

      Just ordered my book on ‘The Black Douglas’ – so I will wade through that. I do find them quite complicated to start with until you get to know who’s who:)

      Just to give you a laugh the Rob Roy book gives you prices in 1700, here’s a few to muse over:
      Shoes  2/-    (10p a pair)
      Whisky 6d    (two and a half pence, a bottle)
      Beef, salmon & mutton  1d     (half pence a pound)
      plaid 11/3d  (56p)

    338. Jimbo says:

      Thanks for the tip.
      Managed to get The Bare Arsed Banditti & The Black Douglas from my local library. Looking forward to feet up for a few nights for a good read.

    339. ianbrotherhood says:

      @BTP –
      Sorry not to have responded earlier.
      That’s all fascinating stuff (as are the posts following) – a bit out of my comfort zone, but I don’t doubt it’s something we should all be trying to get our nappers around.
      As for you-know-who? Bizarre behaviour. Personally, I’ve had quite enough of the ongoing Morag Show – happy to wait for the box-set.

    340. Bugger (the Panda) says:

      the long and short of it is, we are all fucked unless we take back the fuel, motor, gears and wirey bits.

    341. ianbrotherhood says:

      I daresay all we have at the moment is the furry-dice? 

    342. Shinty says:

      I truly understand your enthusiasm for this petition and I have signed it.    Just so’s you don’t get the wrong impression, not only do I think the bedroom tax is unfair, I think it is barbaric, but only with Independence can we change things for the better permanently.
      I sincerely hope your campaign is successful but cannot bear the thought of SLAB ( Johann and her script writer) using it against the SG every week at FMQ’s for eternity!  
      I understand the SG and SNP councils are doing everything in their power to help the victims (unlike the SLAB councils). Coarse as this may sound, why do these people keep voting Labour when they have proved time and time again that they don’t give a stuff about their constituents.
      In other words if this barbaric tax is overturned Labour take full credit and people start voting from them again. (See where I am coming from?)
      Hope you understand what I am saying here. I’m kind of new to all this stuff, so if I have missed something please feel free to correct me.

    343. ianbrotherhood says:

      Thanks for signing.
      I do understand your concerns, and share them. But the bald fact is that the SG is damned if they do or don’t, and Jackie Baillie has already co-opted a previous petition by concealing her involvement (along with other folk I’d best not name here) until the signatures had been gathered.
      The Bedroom Tax has to go, and it will, eventually – so why not just get shot of it now? The SSP position (as I understand it – I’m an ordinary member, not a a policy-maker) is that no amount of party-political ‘pragmatism’ is worth the suffering currently being endured by citizens who are helpless and despairing. It’s simply unacceptable for anyone to use this as a pawn in the Great Game they’re playing. 
      And if Miliband does cave-in, forces emergency legislation, and the HoC does vote to scrap it? There’s no way it’ll all be pushed through the legislature before the referendum. No chance. He can try to claim all the credit he likes, but it’ll only make him marginally less of a lost-cause than he already is.
      If it’s scrapped before next September, it’ll be thanks to pressure from below – folk who’ve helped, in whatever way, will scoff at any claim that the likes of SLAB and/or their Westminster handlers had anything substantial to do with it.
      That’s just my take on it.
      Anyway – Cheers!

    344. Shinty says:

      Cheers, thanks for clearing that up – unfortunately not on Twitter or facebook

    345. Bugger (the Panda) says:

      One aside on Westminster’s attempts to get the Press to sign up to their (Westminster’s) version of charter of libel(sic), following the leveson Enquiry.
      I don’t know how this Westminster tack will or will not apply in Scotland but Private Eye is definitely not up for it.
      Watch this clip.

    346. The Man in the Jar says:

      @Shinty & Jimbo
      Thanks for the feedback I hope that you are not disappointed. If I may suggest further reading. Two books by Stuart McHardy “The Well of the Seven Heads” a rather gory history of interclan feuds. Also “The White Cockade” by the same author. 

    347. Shinty says:

      The Man in the Jar
      Also “The White Cockade” by the same author. 
      Often wondered what that was about (being a long time fan of The Corries)
      enjoy the old footage

    348. Robert Kerr says:

      Thanks for the link. Brought a tear to the eye. 
      Nowadays this would be classed as “exploitation of children for separatist propaganda”
      Oh tempera! oh mores!

    349. DonDeefLugs says:

      Hiya. I’ve been thinking about a ‘wings’ night oot and looking into where and when we could meet up. Trying to fit it in with my work rota as well! Looks like Saturday 7th December would be as good a time as any. Then I thought about venues etc, would a meal be best or just a pub? Then I remembered I once had a great afternoon/night out at the tenpin bowling at Fountain Park in Edinburgh. It’s licenced, you can get a meal included with your game (burger and chips style thingy) and it’s a great way of breaking the ice and having loads of laughs. We could then move on to a pub if anyone fancied it. Let me know what you think and maybe we can get it organised. Hae a guid yin!
      We already have a few people from Facebook:
     (DonDeefLugs) (JLT) (twenty14)

    350. Shinty says:

      Robert Kerr
      “Nowadays this would be classed as “exploitation of children for separatist propaganda”
      How true – I can see the Scotsman’s headlines now;)
      Here are another couple of old black & whites, funny to see all the old cars and how quiet the roads were.

    351. Boorach says:

      @ Shinty
      … and don’t forget that back in 1966 that was the main A9

    352. ianbrotherhood says:

      Sincere apologies to anyone who was irked by my tete-a-tete with Morag last night. I’m not a rude or aggressive person as a rule, but she brings out the worst in me for reasons I’d best not go into.
      And thanks for the encouraging messages this morning.
      I love this site. I really do love it. It’s given me purpose. I’ve learned loads from it. I’ve even made friends through it. (Not ‘virtual’ friends – real, flesh and blood peepil!)
      And it feels like history-in-the-making. A big attraction is that it’s written, recorded – in years to come it’s going to be a treasure-trove for those looking to understand what it felt like to be alive right now. To be part of that, even in a small way, is genuinely thrilling.
      But it should also be enjoyable – it should be fun – and that’s where Morag has really kicked the arse out of it for me. I just can’t enjoy being part of a discussion knowing that she’s liable to arrive at any moment. It’s like being at a great dinner party with loads of interesting people and fantastic food, but you end up landed next to someone who talks shite and farts sporadically.
      If I can’t post on regular threads without getting entangled in slanging-matches with her, thereby annoying the life out of other posters and giving Rev hassle that he just doesn’t need? I’d rather just get out.
      It’s great to have a good debate/argument, and tempers are lost from time to time. That’s understood, and allowed, but there are lines which shouldn’t be crossed – this is Rev’s site and he calls the shots, and I think most regulars here would agree that he’s a fair, tolerant, forgiving kind of dude. He decides where the red-lines are, but we all have our own, and have to decide the extent to which we self-moderate (or self-censor?) – for me, the biggest line of all is the deliberate manipulation of someone else’s language to make it appear that they said the opposite of what they intended, and IMO that’s what happened last night. It’s one thing to have a robust argument with someone – it’s quite another to create argument where none exists.
      I’m a good writer. I’m not good at many things, but I’ve spent thirty-five-plus years working with language, studying it, and I do my best to be careful: to find the right arrangement of words; to avoid being understood; to say whatever it is I want to communicate as concisely and accurately as possible. I’ll never be Orwell, but I know when I’ve written something that could be misinterpreted (sometimes one aims to write something ambiguous) and my comment last night does not fall into that category. 
      From now on I’m posting right here, and here only. That way I won’t run the risk of encountering her again – she only ever popped in once but that seems to have been a mistake and she scarpered quickly.
      Once again – sincere apologies (especially to kininvie, who got dragged into it for no reason at all) for any upset caused.

    353. Paula Rose says:

      So how does this work, if you’re stuck in here on your lonesome and we’re having banter elsewhere in the house?

    354. ianbrotherhood says:

      I sit here smoking, muttering to meself until someone else comes out for a quick drag.
      Nah – if I see anything that I really really REALLY feel compelled to comment on, I’ll just paste it in here and sound-off accordingly. It’s not a big deal.
      Besides, Quarantine has always been a real breathing-space.
      Strange as it may seem, Morag is largely responsible for this place – in case you don’t already know this: Rev resurrected an old thread and directed a few of us here after Morag’s Lockerbie-related post (can’t remember the name of it now –‘Explained by Stupidity‘ or something similar)
      It was good stuff, got a lot of attention (credit where it’s due, Dr. Morag Kerr knows her proverbials when it comes to Lockerbie). Anyway, it sparked a firestorm involving Cameron B, meself, and a few others. It was truly mental, got quite nasty early-on, and degenerated thereafter – Rev eventually locked the thread when it hit 250 comments, kicked everyone’s arses, and sent us here.
      And so it came to pass that the ‘WoS Quarantine Community’ was established.
      There’s a lot of good stuff above – some great links to ‘taboo’ subjects, and even better links to non-taboo stuff which never ever appeared on  the regular WoS threads, esp from (the now rarely-glimpsed) Vronsky.
      Thanks for the feedback Paula – hope you make it back sometime.
      Hoots the noo!

    355. ianbrotherhood says:

      meself earlier:
      ‘…and I do my best to be careful: to find the right arrangement of words; to avoid being understood; to say whatever it is I want to communicate as concisely and accurately as possible...’
      Total face-palm – I should have written ‘to avoid being MISunderstood’.
      Big red-faced smiley thing…

    356. Macart says:

      That’s a shame Ian, you and Morag are two good people. Two different, but good people. You talk to who you want to talk to on line and you choose the points to pick over. Think on it. There’s bags of room on threads to talk to loads of new and hopefully willing undecided. 🙂
      Your posts are always worth reading as are Morag’s. Two differing view points but always interesting. Don’t stay in the back room too long.

    357. Shinty says:

      I don’t think you owe anyone an apology -both you and Morag live on different planets – like we all do on here:)
      I am one of those ‘dummy’ posters who never really contribute anything to the REAL debate, so I do admire people like you (and Morag), you both have a lot to offer, both in discussion, debate (and humour).
      Have to admit there were a couple of threads where it got a bit weird, (almost too much information). However, I have learned there are certain things that Morag has a ‘bee in her bonnet’ about, in fact there was one on the last thread which under normal circumstances she would have been like a dog with a bone. Happy to say she didn’t comment, so perhaps she will learn to tone it down a bit.
      Let’s face it, it would be a sad world (even in an Independent Scotland) if we were all perfect, all the time.
      For what it’s worth, (and I’m not a stalker!) you should have been posting on the last 2 threads:)
      @ Boorach
      … and don’t forget that back in 1966 that was the main A9
      Believe me I’m old enough to remember – my parents drove an old Morris 1000 (I think) the one with the sticky out indicators, just below the roof between the back and front doors

    358. Shinty says:

      Ian – you’re the one with the youtube songs – here’s one for you, hope you like it.

    359. ianbrotherhood says:

      @Macart , @ Shinty –
      I don’t think I’ve ever made secret of the fact that I’m in the SSP, and that’s largely why I send comments to WoS. It would be tedious if I mentioned my allegiance each and every time I made a comment, but that connection remains true all the same.
      I want to represent, accurately, the values that the SSP stands for. If I start losing the rag and calling people names, I’m not doing that.
      What dispirits me – and has shifted me into self-Quarantine – is the selfishness of those who feel that WoS is some kind of stage from which they can pontificate. 
      Ultimately, this debate is going to be decided by ‘ordinary’ citizens who turn-up on Sep 18th. It’s not about personalities, or who has the loudest voice. It’s about ‘connections’ – the most important connections any of us ever make are based on nothing more than body-language and eye-contact, so it’s crucial that everyone capable of more ‘sophisticated’ contact e.g. via writing, ‘art’, speeches or whatever else, does their level best to be honest. If they cannot or will not do that? the game’s a bogey.
      Okay, so I just happen to be an SSP member. But that’s not what I’m on about – if the participants in this debate (WoS or elsewhere) aren’t being scrupulously, consistently honest with one another? We’ve no chance.
      We have to call-out liars and poseurs immediately, and expose them – shine a light on them? they ‘fade away’:

    360. ianbrotherhood says:

      Superb man, just totally superb.
      I’ve seen a lot of the Man via Youtube, but never that one.
      Brilliant stuff. Cheers aplenty.

    361. AlexMci says:

      Aw come on Ian, you can’t stop posting because of the arguments in a few threads, to be honest I quite enjoy it when you call a spade a spade mate. Your posts are in a language that resonates more with me, than some of the really intellectual stuff that gets posted. we need a mix of posters on threads to entice others to post as well. I love the fact that you get people posting Latin and shit that I don’t have any clue about, then in the middle of all that someone else just drops the funniest one liner that makes you nearly wet yourself, I mean if it wasn’t like that there’s no way I could join in, my sense of humour and building site profanities should have no place on a political discussion page, but it does, and that’s the magic of WOS. 

    362. ianbrotherhood says:

      @Alex Mci-
      Ha! Brilliant. Thanks.
      I’m so glad I’ve actually met you in real-life – you’re one of the flesh-and-blood ‘friends’ I referred to earlier, and hope you don’t mind me describing you like that. I can picture you as you were writing that comment – I would be quite scared in real-life (in case you blew some ‘fruits of the forest’ or such-like in my face).
      Nah man – this is the place for me. Even in real-life I’m always ‘in the kitchen at parties’, that kind of thing, so this feels okay. It’s a Catch-22 – I don’t want to leave WoS, but can’t bear being anywhere near you-know-who, so this is a haven, a means of maintaining contact with yourself and others.
      Anyway – we really need to sort another meet with a view to doing something? Aye? Okay, the Griffin was good, but it was really just a meet-and-greet. Whit’s next?
      Take care mister, and thanks for the message – means a lot.

    363. AlexMci says:

      Yeah Ian would be up for another meet one night. Been pretty busy what with work and college two nights a week, that and the long list of weekend jobs my family and friends keep lining up for me lol. Anyhows if everyone’s up for it I will make sure I’m there, the last one was  good.

    364. ianbrotherhood says:

      Sounds like you’re a man in demand. Not being nosy (well, aye, I am) but what are you doing at college?

    365. AlexMci says:

      Doing my HNC Construction Management Ian, getting to that age the knees and that are starting to creak. Time to get of the tools I think. Been watching a lot of the lads maybe ten years older than myself putting off getting operations done for new knees or bad backs because they can’t afford not to be having a wage coming in. Anyway it’s made me get of my arse and think about trying to get my degree. So two years for the HNC should be enough to get me started on the third year of a degree course.

    366. Scaraben says:

      I hope that you will rejoin the discussions in the body of the kirk, sooner or later – preferably sooner. Both you and Morag have made many positive contributions on this site, and it is unfortunate that there is a personality clash. Morag does seem to have some very strong opinions on certain matters, to the point where she appears unable to tolerate any disagreement, as shown by her recent posting of dozens of comments in the thread about dodgy BBC clips relating to Iraq; the number and repetitiveness of these comments ironically reminded me of some of the known or suspected trolls who have appeared on Wings from time to time. However, she is clearly committed to the cause of independence, and I would agree with her on many things, while disagreeing strongly over a few things (probably anything where the word ‘conspiracy’ crept in).

    367. ianbrotherhood says:

      Thanks – appreciate the thoughts.
      I’m happy to stay in here awhile. In truth, I’ve probably been spending too much time on WoS. I really should be doing other stuff, and with the threads becoming longer and longer it’s not easy to keep on top of the discussions.
      Seriously don’t know how Rev keeps across it – must do his head in at times and I wasn’t joking, a while back, when I suggested that he get a proper holiday rather than a weekly night playing poker – things are going to get mental and he needs to be fit, rested (perhaps we should start a petition demanding that he take a week’s vacation to anywhere but Scotland.)
      Besides, there’s a lot of nuts and bolts, hard stats etc which I’m not very clued-up on, and I feel it’s sometimes best to let the folk who know what they’re on about to just get on with it.
      No matter – we’re all in this thing, whether in the main kirk, side-rooms, padded-cells or wherever else!

    368. ianbrotherhood says:

      More power to ye. Can’t be easy, with the work and the weans, but I’m sure you’ll do it, and do it well.

    369. ianbrotherhood says:

      Here’s a video of what happened in ‘Tanganyika’. I collected stamps when I was wee, and had a good few from ‘Tanganyika’, but whenever I checked the map of Africa I could never find it. I didn’t realise they’d joined-up with someone else and re-named themselves Tanzania.
      Anyway, it’s good stuff, and stars a youthful Chooky Embra, all dressed in white, flying his own plane as he dips a wing to say ‘cheerio, and thanks for all the diamonds and ivory’. Given what we know about him now, it’s amazing he didn’t swoop just that wee bit lower and make a bid to scythe the ungrateful bastards into tiny pieces by way of a final raspberry.
      And, why, oh why can’t we have a light orchestra in the Pacific Quay studio when Sally Magnusson’s reading the news?
      Hoo-rah! Hoo-rah! 

    370. ianbrotherhood says:

      Aye, BTW, I’m just wondering what Liz and Phil the Greek will do after we’ve voted Yes – will they have to come up here to officially ‘release’ us?
      Cut a big ribbon? (‘I declare this nation open..’ etc)
      What’s the sketch with all that stuff? Should Phil be digging out his nice white suit again?
      Perhaps we could have a gigantic raffle, and the winner gets to hand her the lowered, folded Union flag on the big day. 
      ‘There ye go hen. Sorry, I’ve no’ got a bag fur it. Cheerie-bye!’

    371. Paula Rose says:

      ooh goody folk in the kitchen – hey ianbrotherhood, why don’t SSP folk join the Green party? btw perhaps the rev could set up a kitchen page for us o/t types to have a natter in.

    372. ianbrotherhood says:

      @Paula –
      Aye. I suppose kitchens and quarantine do go together quite well after all – they’re ‘clean’, or should be.
      Personally, I’d be more up for a WoS ‘Soul Discotheque’, complete with glittery ball and full-on daddy-dancing….
      You may well have sparked something here Paula – we shall see where it leads…

    373. Paula Rose says:

      love it – glittery balls!

    374. AlexMci says:

      Aye well looks like all the riff raff are congregating in here again , that’s me feeling right at home then, if this is the kitchen, then where’s the fridge, who is opening a bottle.

    375. Paula Rose says:

      but back to my point, what’s so wrong with peace, love and a green economy?

    376. ianbrotherhood says:

      I started doing some serious research, but got waylaid by this. 
      It’s a shame Piers Morgan is in it, but, hey, nothing’s perfect, eh?

    377. Paula Rose says:

      riff raff home page xx

    378. AlexMci says:

      Yeah Paula, kick the shoes of and relax, the patters usually good in here 🙂

    379. Paula Rose says:

      kick off the shoes and enjoy this (no culture)

    380. ianbrotherhood says:

      …and how totally brilliant is this?

    381. ianbrotherhood says:

      Hey, you stay away from the washing-basket, right? That’s where I’ve got my Merrydown planked.

    382. Paula Rose says:

      eek UKOK alert

    383. Paula Rose says:

      oops that was an earlier post – UKOK alert

    384. Paula Rose says:

      Serves me right for quaffing the english cider.

    385. Paula Rose says:

      Would help if the partygoers in the kitchen did not have their recent posts advertised in the living room though.

    386. AlexMci says:

      Ach is that yours Ian, I spotted that and was just about tae shuffle nonchalantly in that direction. I will leave it alone, there must be another stash in one of the cupboards, there usually is.

    387. AlexMci says:

      I know Paula, if they think there’s something going on in here they will end up piling in, the carry oot will get well punished if that happens.

    388. Paula Rose says:

      and I left my Highland Park sitting on the coffee table!!!

    389. ianbrotherhood says:

      @Paula (9.52) –
      Thanks for the link.
      Have never seen that poem before. Beautiful stuff.
      Maybe the ‘great dead bird‘ isnae deid after all, eh?
      There’s a serious point here as well…
      I don’t know when these poets died, but I should. We all should. (Perhaps they should really be called ‘bards’?). In other places, like France, poets are major figures, and their passing is marked, the weans are given a half-day off school or whatever.
      The starkest example I can remember is when George Mackay Brown died. You would imagine that MSM broadcasters would have some prepared package, as they do for most elderly notables. But for him? I don’t remember the BBC doing anything, but STV had a tribute which, to be honest, looked like something a trainee had done as part of a course – fair play to whoever did it, but it really wasn’t good enough.
      And that’s the grim reality – our art, our culture just isn’t ‘good enough’. Not for them, at any rate, and that’s why prehistoric creatures like George Robertson feel emboldened to utter the shite that they do.
      We should celebrate the memory of Henderson, MacLean, Mackay-Brown, Morgan, and all the other bards, some of whom had to scratch and scrape a living in the nation they so clearly adored.
      We let them down, aye – and we should confess as much – but we won’t do it again.

    390. AlexMcI says:

      Ah never touched the whisky, honest. I’m not allowed tae drink whisky:(

    391. ianbrotherhood says:

      Right….so, if I understand the situation…you posted a video of some dude reading that poem, but you didn’t mean to?
      Fair do’s, but I’m wondering if you have read the poem? If not, please do.
      And then I got the video you intended – the Rezillos?
      FFS…if that name had come-up in a Quiz Night I wouldn’t have had a scooby, but as soon as the video started I remembered it, cause the singer was gorgeous. (Isn’t it just totally amazing how faces are stored in your memory?)
      Anyway, if you haven’t already, please read that poem!
      Big effing smiley thing…(still haven’t mastered it)

    392. Paula Rose says:

      That poem was the one I didn’t post properly in the post above, loved Sorley – 
      and this

    393. Paula Rose says:

      Yet again the culture is in quarantine 😉

    394. ianbrotherhood says:

      ‘ I left my Highland Park sitting on the coffee table!!!’
      Well, kiss it goodbye.
      That’ll be Peety from round-by. He gave us the coffee-table when they got their front room done-up. His missus (Nessie) wanted it out. She’d been waiting for the chance – turns out it belonged to his Mum, and he swore he’d never let it go, cause you could still make out the pattern of rings where she’d put her final tea cups. 
      So, anyway, we took it in cause we didn’t have any suchlike furniture, and it’s still in the front room. But when he comes round here? He regards anything/everything left on that table as his own. Seriously. Last year we had a friend visiting, a Scots lad, but he had his pal with him, and the pal was from some foreign place, I don’t mind where, but anyway, at the end of the night?  Ach, what a stushie. It turns out the lad had emptied his pockets onto the coffee table when he was looking for something or other, and it was an envelope there he had, turns out it was £3,000 worth of raw crack cocaine in it.
      So it goes, eh?

    395. ianbrotherhood says:

      @Paula (10.28)
      Did you post that a few days ago? I’ve seen it, but can’t remember where.

    396. AlexMcI says:

      Crack cocaine? Aw fear fucks sake I,ll admit it then, it wis me that swallied the whisky, you can stop looking for it, the empty bottles in the washing machine.

    397. ianbrotherhood says:

      I’m not allowed the whisky either.
      ‘Nippy watter’.
      Oh well, so it goes.
      Mind you – Burns Night? Hogmanay?
      Sep 19th 2014?

    398. Paula Rose says:

      What? All I get is a can of Irn Bru! [><]

    399. ianbrotherhood says:

      Hey mister, nae danger, but please please don’t open that oven.
      That’s where I keep the porn stash. 

    400. Paula Rose says:

      …… and the oven goes on   now.

    401. ianbrotherhood says:

      @Paula (9.30) –
      ‘... back to my point, what’s so wrong with peace, love and a green economy?’
      So sorry, I totally missed that.
      IMO? Absolutely nothing at all. I don’t see what’s stopping us, and I can’t imagine that anyone who tries to stop us will be able to.
      If we want it enough? We’ll get it.
      It’s all up for grabs.

    402. ianbrotherhood says:

      Okay, all joking aside, please turn the oven off.
      Thanks in advance, and, yeah, okay, I’m still in the ‘good-room’, but I know when the oven’s on.

    403. ianbrotherhood says:

      We still need some suggestions for this WoS ‘Discotechueue’,  (however it should be spelled need not be cause for concern…not here anyway.)
      Regardless of venue, or season, the music is what matters. We will be indoors, and we will have a very few hours together, so…
      The good nights, the best nights, always fly-away by – we all know that – there’s no room for dodgy stuff. Each and every song has to be a belter – not about ‘Scotland’. It’s about soul y’all, eh?
      Come on…I’ve got one, but won’t let it go, not just yet…

    404. Paula Rose says:

      For anyone in the kitchen –

    405. Shinty says:

      @ Boorach
      I didn’t realise you lived in a van (I realise it’s a lifestyle choice, so please don’t take this the wrong way). With winter coming on, for goodness sake don’t be cold.
      You probably have more luxuries in your van than we have at our house, but we do have a nice warm fire which you would be welcome to share if ever the need arose.
      Mind you, you’d have to fight the dogs for the sofa! (and they’d probably win!)

    406. Ian Brotherhood says:

      Could we have the next party in Boorach’s van?
      I’m still trying to clean up after the other night.

    407. Shinty says:

      Next party for me will be the 19th September, 2014 – (might be a ‘byob’, but you’re all welcome) if we can’t organise a human chain across Scotland, we could certainly do a conga up the Conic.

      Details to follow (note: must have a word with Kevin)

    408. Boorach says:

      @ Shinty
      B’stard! Hate kindness, always brings a need to hold back a threatened tear.
      so very kind of you but have an excellent heating system fitted. Same sort of thing as fitted in the cabs of trucks. Diesel fired blown hot air, truly comfortable.

    409. Boorach says:

      @ Ian Brotherhood
      Party goers welcome but remember most folk wipe their feet as they LEAVE the boorach-mobile!

    410. Ian Brotherhood says:

      The current threads are so busy that most comments are lost forever, ‘like tears in rain’, so I’m sticking this here in the hope that it has a better chance of being seen.
      Next Tuesday, ‘Turf Bar’, Irvine High St.
      Anyone up for it?
      There’s an SSP Public Meeting starting at 7.30 – ‘The Socialist Case for Independence’.
      Colin Fox will be speaking, as will T** D****, a Royal Mail worker, Area Union Rep. (Don’t want to spell out his name in case it gets him in bother, but any colleagues/comrades will be able to guess – good speaker, and a sound guy.)
      It’s a PUBLIC meeting – everyone welcome. No charge. You don’t even have to be a ‘socialist’, or pretend to be one.
      Anyway, it’ll be good, but I’m wondering if any Wingers in and about Ayrshire are up for a wee nicht after the meeting? We already had the Glasgow one, seems the Edinburghers are going to meet soonish. But what about us doon here? Eh?
      Yeah, I know it’s a dodgy time of month, abody’s skint, aye, and I know, I know, I know…Tuesday night in Irvine? just after the clocks have gone back?
      ‘…FFS, it sounds like the start of Tam O’Shanter…’
      But again I ask, nay, thrice – anyone up for it?

    411. Paula Rose says:

      New story on wings – feeding frenzy alert, anyone else fancy a fag?

    412. Bugger (the Panda) says:

      innerbearsden [at] gmail [dot] com

    413. TJenny says:

      BtP -Weewinkingsmileythingy.

    414. Bugger (the Panda) says:

      @ whit?

    415. kendomacaroonbar says:

      Errm  Hello !   How does one create an icon thingee to replace the default one allocated by the system ?
      yours aye…

    416. Bugger (the Panda) says:

      Go onto the site called wordpress dot com and upload an existing “avatar” or your own,( very reduced pixels and that stuff) and after that, good luck.

    417. TJenny says:

      BtP – having probs sendng you email maybe if you email me then I can reply;
      maureenmccluskey [at] hotmail [dot] co [dot] uk

    418. Bugger (the Panda) says:

      oh it is you kendoon.
      Let me verify
      It is Gravatar  so here is the link to set it up.

    419. TJenny says:

      BtP – just sent you a test email – I see you got it.

    420. Paula Rose says:

      eek a poll

    421. Gray says:

      Gravatar test .. not sure why you’d delay publishing the poll, Labour will probably pollute it with postal votes if you give them the chance.
      Incidentally I was reckoning earlier that whomever thought of the word Laboratory must have been prescient 😀

    422. Paula Rose says:

      jusht fownd the bottle of highland park – happy burfday dear shtew

    423. kendomacaroonbar says:

      Thanks BTP

    424. Paula Rose says:

      Witter – you’ll have had your T

    425. Jingly Jangly says:

      We are hosting the 2nd Arran Classic Bike show on july 5/6th next year, I have advised Ron Sabey and hopefully the Velo club will be down in force, the AJS/Matchless club will be there for the second year in succession. Im hoping to get a few clubs down and we will be putting on events such as BBQ and Ceilidh on the Saturday night and a Classic show at the local museum (last year there was around 40 entries which I was very impressed with, the guy who organised it last year put a heap of work in and we are trying to help him out by spreading the organisational workload for next year.)

      Anyway if you fancy a weekend in Arran let me know and  I will get some accommodation sorted for you, no room at my place but Ive got plenty of relatives!!!!

      The event will be non-political so apart from Yes stickers on my bikes that will be it.

      I hope to have at least six bikes entered, probably the velo, Yamaha tz250, triumph t120v bonnieville, Honda 500 four classic racer, Honda rc162 bob mac replica, Honda 350 four, Yamaha tzr250, Seeley Norton and maybe rickman Honda 750 cr and Triumph Trident Metisse if I aint sold that one before then.

      Ive still to build up the Velo, Rickman Honda and Seeley Honda so lot of work to get done over the winter….

    426. velofello says:

      Jingly Jangly,
      Getting to Arran is a problem its so far away. By sea, if I can persuade a friend with a boat its some 12 to 14 miles from Troon! Of course i can always drive up to the ferry at Ardrossan. Mark me down for July please. My wife spent much of her childhood in Arran so she will insist in coming too.

      I was strictly an off-road competitor. Motocross, trials and enduros. Did the Scottish three times. My bikes are HT5 Ariel trials, Tiger Cub trials, Cheney Triumphs, and the KSS  – in all states of part rebuilds. I cannot resist modifying.. I fancied doing vintage racing with the KSS until I learned the entry costs. The Old Bike Mart  has an article about a Robbie Allan memorial event next year and I’m tempted to drag out my old bones and enter.

      Chuffed to hear from you.

    427. kendomacaroonbar says:


    428. Jingly Jangly says:

      no worries will get the pair of you a bed for the weekend.
      Are you a member of the Ayr classic club? ive mentioned that we are having a bash on Arran
      and hopefully it will be in the diary for at least a club run.
      Send me an email on info [at] jinglyjangly [dot] com and we can arrange things further

    429. Thistle says:

      Hi WoS people
      please take note of the following event below that we would like you to help promote so we can reach a wider online audience. We are also doing a little crowdfunding which ends in 4 days so please help out if you can.


      On Tuesday 26th November 2013 The Scottish Government will publish its white paper on independence. Join us online or at The Glad Cafe, Shawlands, Glasgow for a presentation and Q & A session with representatives from ‘Business For Scotland’ (Michelle Thomson, Ivan McKee, Eric McLean)
      Find out the real figures and have your say on independence..

      TICKETS £5 are available from Young’s Interesting Books on Skirving street or online here:



    430. Thistle says:

      I’m testing my new new gravatar
      cheers Archie [not Erchie] for the posted help.

    431. DanTDog says:

      Likewise Archie [not Erchie]…and btw Rev…mony hoppy returrns… 😉

    432. Alex Taylor says:

      Aye Right leaflet,  business card sized.
      I’ve had printed 1000 of these cards and have about 400 left at the moment. If enough people fancy getting some I’ll be able to get more within about a week. Meantime I’ll share out what I have left among those who want some and then get another batch ordered up depending on demand.
      My email addresss is ecktaylor [at] btinternet [dot] com

    433. AllyPally says:

      Testing gravatar

    434. Ian Brotherhood says:

      @AllyPally –
      Did it pass the test?
      Hope youse are well there. The Stevenston YT clip went over 2k today…splendid!

    435. Ian Brotherhood says:

      Poor wee Quarantine’s feeling a bit empty, neglected.
      Come on people – let’s have a laugh, eh?

    436. Ian Brotherhood says:

      Anyone remember these guys?

    437. Bugger (the Panda) says:

      Ian Brotherhood
      Here we go
      A bit out of date with a few grammar and spelling mistakes but stiil sort of readable

    438. Ian Brotherhood says:

      Ha! Superb.
      Now it all makes perfect sense.

    439. Paula Rose says:

      Oooh haven’t been in the kitchen for ages –

    440. Ian Brotherhood says:

      Nice one.
      I’m definitely in the kitchen tonight. Revising for exams, and it’s dry as dust, memorising stuff, so I’m going to stick some tunes in here to help while away the hours, and neck some of the finest Scrumpy money can buy…

    441. Ian Brotherhood says:

      The Clash – London Calling

    442. Ian Brotherhood says:

      I don’t think these lads ever played Saltcoats…
      The Trammps – Disco Inferno

    443. Ian Brotherhood says:

      Gary Numan – ‘Are Friends Electric’, a recent version.

    444. Ian Brotherhood says:

      Rod Stewart – ‘You Wear it Well’, TOTP 1972.
      Check out Ronnie Wood. Hasn’t changed much in 41 years.

    445. Ian Brotherhood says:

      This is a bit special – Van Morrison doing ‘Full Force Gale/Bright side of the Road’ live somewhere…

    446. Ian Brotherhood says:

      You remember ABC, right?
      The singer was great. Martin Fry (?). ‘The Look of Love’ was their biggest hit, but betcha you’ve not seen this presentation – splendid stuff, when they were ‘big in Japan’:

    447. Ian Brotherhood says:

      Aye, it’s all very well, me just dropping in random stuff of my liking.
      But see if it was a competition? and see if there was some kind of a vote to decide which songs best represent what this site is about?
      Aye, it’d be different then, eh?
      Bryan Burnett had a good show during the week there – the songs you’d have on a C-60, or maybe C-90 tape, taking stuff off the radio.
      That’s what to do here, right? Quarantine’s an empty place for the most part, but it is ‘a place’. So why not make the most of it?
      I’m just throwing in random stuff I like, but a lot of us like similar stuff, and we would also, presumably, like stuff we haven’t yet shared.
      ‘Now That’s What I Call WoS’ or something similar…see where I’m going with this…do you see it…can you feel it?

    448. Bugger (the Panda) says:

      Did you enjoy your wee sejour on Desert Island Disks last night.
      I was amused by your postings and you heroic dedication to studying for your exams.
      I didn’t listen to any of your music though.
      I hope the therapy did you good.

    449. Ian Brotherhood says:

      @BTP –
      I’m not sure if trying to memorise stuff while drinking Scrumpy Jack is very effective – I’ll wait for the hangover to wear off and see what I can remember.

    450. K1 says:

      @ Ian Brotherhood
      Think you will remember this…along these lines: “When dreams don’t become their people
      People become their dreams”

    451. Ian Brotherhood says:

      @K1 –
      I do remember it well, but it’s got to be 25, maybe 30 years since I heard it. Never had any of their albums, but will definitely be getting some. Love it. Thanks for the link…I’ll be humming that all day.

    452. Bugger (the Panda) says:

      Try Tony Joe White, go for the Hoodoo album and start with the Gift.
      Go backwards a fair few decades and find Polk Salad, reminds me of Johan Lamont.

    453. Ian Brotherhood says:

      Did as you suggested. Wasn’t sure if you were pulling my leg, but Youtubed the man, found the tracks you mentioned, enjoyed them a lot – interesting dude, and he does look vaguely familiar, but I can’t for the life of me remember where I might have encountered his stuff.
      No-one seems too taken with the idea of a Wings C-90. One side will be upbeat stuff, the other will be more reflective/folksy. Doesn’t have to be ‘Scottish’ as such – the tracks should capture the mood right now, what it feels like to be on the brink of securing independence.
      I wonder what BT would produce if they attempted something similar?
      Anyway, on with the ‘upbeat’ side – James Brown is ‘A Greedy Man’:

    454. K1 says:

      A Side: Upbeat.  On the brink…

    455. K1 says:

      Think I’ve happened upon bt’s campaign song…LOL

    456. TJenny says:

      Anyone up for a WoS meet-up sometime at The Albanach, High Street, Edinburgh, shout out here on Q.  I’d be happy to meet any time this Friday or Saturday but appreciate timing might not suit all. Other Edinburgh venues are also available. 🙂

    457. Ian Brotherhood says:

      @TJenny –
      Hope you get some takers.
      It’s about time we did another west coast gitthegither – I arranged the last one in The Horseshoe, Glasgow, and most folk seemed to enjoy it, some fruitful contacts emerged.
      Anyone fancy grabbing the bull by the proverbials (ouch!) and suggesting another date, maybe even another city/town? Okay, it’s a dodgy time of year what with watching the pennies, the pubs being packed with works do’s etc, but no harm putting out feelers.
      (That’s enough innuendo for one comment – Ed)

    458. Bugger (the Panda) says:

      Cannae dae it T J, stuck in Gascony.
      Very sorry
      one DAY

    459. TJenny says:

      It doesn’t have to be this weekend, or any weekend, my time’s my own and had suggested a Fri or Sat for those who may work and want a day off afterwards. So happy for day + times to suit others, ‘though I’d prefer Edinburgh.
      Poor Panda – to be stuck in Gascony 🙂

    460. Bugger (the Panda) says:

      with reasonably priced good wine and excellent grub

    461. Bugger (the Panda) says:

      For you TJ and Iann Brotherhood

    462. TJenny says:

      I’m sure 🙂

    463. Bugger (the Panda) says:

      Éblouie Par La Nuit
      Éblouie par la nuit à coups de lumières mortelles.
      À frôler les bagnoles, les yeux comme des têtes d’épingles.
      J’t’ai attendu cent ans dans les rues en noir et blanc
      Tu es venu en sifflant
      Éblouie par la nuit à coups de lumières mortelles.
      À shooter les canettes, aussi paumée qu’un navire.
      Si j’en ai perdu la tête, j’t’ai aimé et même pire
      Tu es venu en sifflant
      Éblouie par la nuit à coups de lumières mortelles.
      Vas-tu l’aimer la vie ou la regarder juste passer?
      De nos nuits de fumettes, il ne reste presque rien
      Que tes cendres au matin
      À ce métro rempli de vertiges de la vie
      À la prochaine station, petit européen
      Mets ta main, descend-la au-dessous de mon cœur
      Éblouie par la nuit à coups de lumières mortelles.
      Un dernier tour de piste avec la main au bout.
      J’t’ai attendu cent ans dans les rues en noir et blanc
      Tu es venu en sifflant

      Dazzled by the night’s mortal lights
      With cars driving close by me and my pupils thin as pins
      I waited for you 100 years long in the black-and-white streets
      You came over, whistling
      Dazzled by the night’s mortal lights
      Kicking the cans on the ground, as lost as a ship
      If I lost my mind, I loved you and even worse
      You came over, whistling
      Dazzled by the night’s mortal lights
      Will you love life at last, or just watch it pass by?
      There’s almost nothing left of our nights of smoking
      But your ashes in the morning
      At this subway station, full of life and dizziness
      At the next top, called Petit Européen
      Run your hand all the way down my chest
      Dazzled by the night’s mortal lights
      A last lap, stretching out my hand
      I waited for you 100 years long in the black-and-white streets
      You came over, whistling
      I like the kitchen stool and table.


    464. Ian Brotherhood says:

      @BTP –
      Cheers. That was good.
      I’m not surprised he woke up, her bellowing like that, but why did he bolt?
      And did he remember his hat?
      Dem French…they’re so contrary sometimes…

    465. Bugger (the Panda) says:

      or some German (?) Celtic mood music, 4 hours long?

    466. Ian Brotherhood says:

      @BTP –
      Hmmm, interesting – could we use it as the soundtrack for the next night-out?

    467. Bugger (the Panda) says:

      Still prefer Tony Joe White, though.

    468. TJenny says:

      BtW – that song sounds like a broken-hearted soul in torment and sung in French gives it a certain je ne sais quoi (excuse spelling there), or as we say in Scotland ‘dinnae ken whit. 🙂
      Ian Brotherhood – another night out is what I’m trying to arrange, but no takers so far, so song should maybe be ‘When will I see you aagain?’
      Wonder where Conan is as he was mentioning not getting invited to The Albanach even though it’s his local and nothing arranged so far that I’m aware of, unless I wasn’t invited either?  Thought that Morag and Juteman were interested too, when I first mentioned it, we’ll wait and see.

    469. Bugger (the Panda) says:

      It will happen
      Just lie back and think of England, no sexual or ethnic bias implied or stated.

      No animals were hurt during the filming.

    470. Paula Rose says:

      time for another tune

    471. TJenny says:

      Paula Rose – Nice one. 🙂   I’d never heard that before athough I used to frequent Porty a lot in the 70s.
      Are you perhaps up for a WoS night out in Edinburgh sometime soon?  Trying to arrange something, but no takers as yet.
      BtW – I thought the whole point of lying back and thinking of England meant that for some, things definitely didn’t happen, 🙂

    472. Bugger (the Panda) says:

      Your choice

    473. Paula Rose says:

      No longer live in Edinburgh – this is the one time I regret leaving, now ensconced in Brechin apart from daily visits to St Kilda (try Better Together St Kilda on facebook).

    474. TJenny says:

      Paula Rose – Ah, shame. Maybe at the next march and rally then 🙂

    475. Geoff Huijer says:

      Interesting results from an Independence poll on Moneysaving expert.
      Those with eyes on their money – People living in England erring to ‘No’
      and those living in Scotland overwhelmingly ‘Yes’…

    476. TJenny says:

      Geoff Huijer – aye, everyone except those living in England are saying YES, including NI, although a low number in total voted from NI + W, who are perhaps Scots.

    477. Gray says:

      As we’re doing nostalgia ..

    478. K1 says:

      …same era, different sound, maybe one for A side…upbeat

    479. K1 says:

      …same era, different sound, maybe one for A side…upbeat

    480. K Mackay says:

      TJ, I’m up for a WOS night in the burgh, the Albannach’s pretty handy for me. Didn’t make it in time before the march to meet everyone in there so would be nice to have another chance to meet some WOS folk in real life 🙂 I’ll try to remember to check back in here to see what the plan is.
       I quite like this quarantine place btw, I hardly ever comment on the main threads cos someone else has always pretty much said what I was going to say so I don’t feel I’ve got anything to add but quarantines got a nice feel to it, bit more chilled. Think I might start spending some time in these parts 🙂
      Here’s a tune that makes me very happy: The Corries, Dawning of the day

    481. Quinie frae Angus says:

      I am up for a night to meet Wingers too. Glasgow or Edinburgh, doesn’t matter to me. Or even Dundee!

    482. Wingman 2020 says:

      Always up for a WOS Conference. Edinburgh best for me. 

    483. TJenny says:

      K MacKay, Quinie frae Angus, Wingman 20/20 + me, makes 4 so far – well, like the Yes movement, start off small and build up! What day/time do you prefer?   I’m very near The Albanach and any day/time suits me – is this Fri or Sat too soon? 8ish too early?

    484. Wingman 2020 says:

      Might it be best to ‘advertise’ the Location and Time.  Just tell them! Consensus never works. 🙂 
      And give people at least a full week.

      WINGS 2014
      Or Organise a New Year Meeting – One in Glasgow, one in Edinburgh. 
      Tell people now, for first or second week in January.  You might get a surprise at the numbers and Stu can get a chance to come up.  

    485. TJenny says:

      Wingman – yeah, but next Friday’s the 13th – eeek! Could be Sat though 🙂
      I could say I’ll be in The Albanach this Fri from 8 – and end up on my own 🙁  but Conan mght be there by default as it’s his local.
      Happy to have a WoS New Year meet – up in 2014 – wonder if the Rev comes home for the festive season?  If so, we can arrange it to suit him – but who would look after the wee ratlets?
      Rev – over to you.
      I too like the quarantine space but maybe it needs a wee pop-up letting folk know that there’s new postings there? I know if you hover your mouse over the Q heading it shows you the latest commments posted, but, how many folk do that, I wonder?

    486. Conan_the_Librarian says:

      Any time will suit me 🙂

    487. TJenny says:

      Hi Conan – wondered where you’d got to. 🙂
      So, can we say that this Fri @8.00, Conan and I will be at The Albanach, and if K Mackay, Wingman, Quinie frae Angus and any others can make it, that would be lovely.
      Maybe we should make it the regular WoS pub, in Edinburgh, so that on any Friday night you can drop into The Albanach and know that you’ll find a WoSer or two. 🙂

    488. Bugger (the Panda) says:

      For a TJenny you are a right wee bevvy merchant.

    489. TJenny says:

      BtP – Ah, but I already know that The Albanach serves tea, although I’m not averse to a wee glass or 2 of white wine. 🙂
      And besides, who would want to have a meet up in a tea -room, esp on a Friday night 🙁 

    490. Bugger (the Panda) says:

      a wee drap o’ Mither’s ruin in the tea then?

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