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Pete’s New Programming

Posted on January 11, 2023 by

A few months ago, we all had a good chuckle at Pete Wishart’s screeching 180-degree turn on the subject of using a plebiscitary election for independence, a strategy which switched overnight from “suicidal, disastrous fringe lunacy with no hope of success” to “genius plan Nicola herself came up with”.

But after that crude ad-hoc field patch, we’re delighted to be able to report that Pete has submitted himself to SNP HQ for a full operating system update and is now fully compliant with the New Truth.

Because while plebiscite elections are now good, it can’t just be ANY old plebiscite election, and it certainly can’t be a Holyrood one that might risk costing Pete Wishart two years of Westminster pension contributions by achieving independence too early.

It has to be a Westminster one, and Pete’s going to tell you why.

Magnanimously, he starts out by conceding the several obvious and very significant disadvantages of a Westminster-election plebiscite:

Given that support in the polls is on a knife-edge, a couple of extra percentage points from those two groups of indy-friendly voters could very well be the difference between victory and defeat. So we were expecting a pretty thorough explanation of why those advantages should be thrown away.

Wait, what? The next UK election is almost TWO YEARS away. Why delay when we could have a Holyrood one in a matter of weeks? Except hang on, Pete says we can’t.

But we know that’s a lie. There’s literally NO way that scenario could result in Douglas Ross becoming FM, as we’ve previously outlined in detail. If Nicola Sturgeon stood down tomorrow, there are only four possible procedural outcomes:

(1) No candidates are nominated as new First Minister, no new government can be formed and we have an election.

(2) The Unionist parties put up a single candidate for a new First Minister. The SNP and Greens vote them down, no new government can be formed and we have an election.

(3) The Unionist parties put up more than one candidate. In this eventuality the SNP also put up a candidate, they win because the SNP and Greens have a majority, they stand down immediately and the process repeats from the start.

(4) The Unionist parties put up more than one candidate, the SNP and Greens let one of them win, and then vote down their proposed cabinet of ministers. A new government cannot be formed and we have an election.

(Option 3 might not even be relevant or necessary. It may be the case that in the event of Option 4 the rules deem a government has failed to be formed and an election automatically follows rather than starting the process again. We’ve contacted the Scottish Parliament to get clarification on that.)

In reality, the Unionist parties know they cannot beat the arithmetic and so (1) or (2) are the only genuine possibilities. But wait! Pete’s got that covered!

This one really merits some scrutiny. How would that scenario pan out, exactly? Which voters would be enraged and enact this “punishment”? Let’s walk through it.

SNP VOTERS

The vast bulk of SNP supporters want independence and have endured eight years of inaction from the party, with growing disgruntlement. Are they really going to suddenly vote for a Unionist party because they’re furious that Nicola Sturgeon has finally done her job and triggered a vote on independence? The idea is so farcically hilarious as to be insulting.

GREEN VOTERS 

In so far as Green voters actually care about independence, the same applies. Also, finding themselves in power for the first time in history, they’re hardly likely to vote to throw that away.

TORY VOTERS

Are never going to vote for independence anyway.

LIB DEM VOTERS

See “Tory voters”.

So nothing’s changing so far. That only leaves one group.

LABOUR VOTERS

We know that a substantial minority – between 30% and 40% – of Labour voters support independence, AND know that their party has zero credible chance of power in Scotland until independence is achieved, squeezed as it is between the SNP and the Tories on either side of the constitutional debate.

We also know that it would be possible to conduct a Holyrood election – but NOT a Westminster one – on a dual basis, whereby the constituency vote was the “referendum” and the list vote was a normal party one.

This squares the vicious circle that traps pro-indy Labour voters, who want independence but hate the SNP. Such an election would give them a “free” indy vote while still letting them vote Labour on the list vote that would actually determine the number of MSPs. It’s basically a dream scenario for pro-indy Labour voters. (And as for anti-indy Labour voters, see “Tory voters”.)

In short, then, there is NO group of voters with any rational reason to be angry at the premature dissolution of the current Scottish Parliament. Yes supporters – including Labour ones who might balk at the idea of voting SNP in a UK election – finally get a chance at a second independence vote, with a much better chance of success and without waiting two years, while No voters who don’t like the SNP have a chance to vote them out or at least deprive them of their coalition majority. Everybody’s happy.

(The SNP spent most of 2022 screaming for an early Westminster election because the Tories were so useless and they wanted to kick them out. Why would Unionist voters feel any different about an early chance to kick the SNP out?)

Everyone knows that Scottish politics is doomed to be locked in stalemate until the constitutional boil is lanced. The only people who actually have anything to lose from doing so are the SNP’s Westminster MPs (and to a lesser extent its MSPs at Holyrood, who would actually have to start doing their jobs competently rather than relying on the endless dangling of the indy carrot for votes and seats).

Pete Wishart, then, is a liar who thinks voters are idiots. (In fairness there’s a certain amount of localised evidence for that view, in that voters have repeatedly elected Pete Wishart.) And while you knew that already, it never hurts to spell it out once in a while. Scotland deserves an upgrade.

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0 to “Pete’s New Programming”

  1. Daisy Walker says:

    Pete n Swinney have been getting pressure from local SNP members about not doing enough to obtain Indy.

    A Westminster de facto Indy Pleb Election is sufficiently far enough away to look ‘genuine’ but at the same time kick the can down the road.

    It will also satisfy the great big lump of so called ‘Indy Supporters’ who, when push comes to shove and a burning need for Indy becomes ever more apparent, would rather find excuses to do nothing.

    Given that I don’t believe Pete wants Indy – can I urge folk to consider the proposed Boundary Changes – particularly to Pete’s constituency. Tory Gerrymandering on steroids would be my description. Interesting indeed that he would advocate this as a means of obtaining Indy.

  2. desimond says:

    “Now is not the time” says Peter the Twitter Block King

    The National had the cheek to ask Twitter folk for their advice and thoughts on itself last week. I doubt they would have liked the answers they were given.

  3. Calum says:

    Pete gloated on Twitter about a previous banning of the Wings account. That tells you something.

  4. Dave M says:

    Wishart is a complete waste of space. He doesn’t appear to have any principles, or the faintest clue about anything. The longer time goes on, the less convinced I am. What has he done in the last eight years? He’s become very comfortable in London.

  5. David+Beveridge says:

    That arse flips so fast and so often that you could connect him to a turbine and generate as much clean, renewable energy as we need. Find a way to harness the hot air coming out his gub and we’re sorted for exporting the stuff as well.

  6. Peter A Bell says:

    If you have the leverage to force Sturgeon to dissolve parliament, you have the leverage to force her to use #ScottishUDI to go directly to a proper constitutional referendum. So why would you want to have that forced election? Perhaps because it would provide an opportunity for Alba Party to win a seat or two?

    SNP loyalists aren’t the only ones putting party before nation.

  7. Monica Worley says:

    As one of Pete’s constituents and a previous SNP member, I pushed hard to get Pete deselected several years ago and made to stand against other candidates for the SNP candidate spot. He was protected and all attempts to get a different SNP candidate were shut down very quickly. Others wanted this to happen as well but even then (2019, I believe), Nicola’s buds were untouchable. As this was pre-Alba, etc, and the SNP wasn’t so blatant about stopping indy, if you wanted indy your only choice was Pete. Too much for me to stomach but others voted him in anyway. He should have been taken down ages ago.

  8. Johnny says:

    Yes, he’s a buffoon who doesn’t understand anything about how folks’ minds work, or a mad liar. Those are the choices.

    In no way would they be “walking away from responsibility for government” by forcing an early election. They’d be saying “we are asking you to vote for us again because we very much want the responsibility for government AND trying to improve things as quickly as possible by asking you to vote for independence on the same slate. We are in fact seizing responsibility for improving things quickly by doing so”.

    It’s a gross act of (deliberate?) self-sabotage to try and paint the most negative slant possible on that. If independence is a “good” and will improve things, why would those who’d vote for it be angry with you for hurrying it up (as the Rev says above)?

  9. Giesabrek says:

    So you’re saying that a plebiscite Scottish parliamentary election is MORE likely to result in a GREATER vote for independence, thanks to the pro-indy Labour voters?

    It’s almost as if Comfy Slippers Pete knows this and is actually backing the option (Westminster election plebiscite) that’ll be more likely to lose an indy plebiscite… In fact, given Pete’s a few bulbs short of a chandelier the order to back the losing option is more likely to have come from on high, no doubt from the Glorious Leader herself.

  10. Rev. Stuart Campbell says:

    “If you have the leverage to force Sturgeon to dissolve parliament, you have the leverage to force her to use #ScottishUDI to go directly to a proper constitutional referendum. So why would you want to have that forced election? Perhaps because it would provide an opportunity for Alba Party to win a seat or two?

    SNP loyalists aren’t the only ones putting party before nation.”

    I’m not in Alba. UDI without an express democratic mandate would simply not be recognised by anyone and would likely be crushed by force just as Spain did with Catalonia. The international community stood by and watched.

    I don’t have the “leverage” to “force” anyone to do anything. I’m some idiot with a blog. I can only point out the facts.

  11. auld highlander says:

    Yes, life is cushy on their seats at Holyrood, very cushy so the politicians just tell the voters what the voter wants to hear in the hope of getting re elected.

    It’s a bit like a dodgy car salesman telling you it does 200 mpg and it’s in good condition with a previous lady owner who just did motorway miles. Or believing what the bbc say is gospel.

  12. PhilM says:

    I bet MI5 don’t even have a file on Pete Wishart.
    Agent: is it time to update the Wishart file Ma’am?
    Judi Dench as M: now is not the time agent Leask!
    Agent: but he’s very active on the Twitter.
    M: Good lord! You and the Twitter! There isn’t a Wishart file. We decided against it. The decision was unanimous.
    Agent: oh…right…is he…is he one of ours Ma’am?
    M: he’s not one of anything…

  13. Gregory Beekman says:

    The problem with the SNP is that they have become politicians.

  14. Cuilean says:

    Paraphrasing ‘The Carpenters’,

    “Rainy days and Wishart always get me down’.

  15. Peter A Bell says:

    Rev. Stuart Campbell

    I’m trying to figure out why you might imagine I was referring to you personally. Seems very odd. A bit of deflection, perhaps?

  16. Game, set and match, tae the wee guy fae Bath.

  17. Agamemnon says:

    I wrote to my MP (my MSP is a Tory) asking why the hell are we using a Westminster election as a plebiscite instead of Holyrood. He replied with a bunch of bumff much the Same as Pete here about how it would let in a Unionist FM. I linked to the standing orders of the Scottish parliament showing how that was complete hogwash and asked him to explain.

    To his credit, he eventually replied saying he didn’t know the rules (hadn’t bothered to look them up) and was surprised that the crap he had just told me wasn’t true. He then went on to state that he still thought it was better to use a Westminster election because of the optics and how it would look to the voters if the collapsed the Scottish Government early.

    If this is the level of competence you need to earn £84k a year plus expenses then I seriously need to have a word with my employer!!!

  18. Albert Herring says:

    “there are only four possible procedural outcomes”

    5. Westminster amends the Scotland Act to stymie any of these ruses.

  19. paul says:

    More importantly the Scottish people would be likely to punish any government that that simply walked away from its reponsibilities when they are so crucially needed

    So there won’t be any summer recess at holyrood or westminster this year unless everything is sorted by then?

  20. Bill Lees says:

    I agree that we must force an early Scottish election, my greatest concern is that Westminster imposes direct rule into the vacuum when we have no government in Scotland

    I don’t know if this is constitutionally possible but I’m sure some Tory’s in particular would relish the prospect

  21. Geoff Anderson says:

    Year after year the employees of Murrell Enterprises dangle the carrot of the latest cunning plan and deploy their attack dogs like Wishart to dismiss all other routes. I remember the aggressive chanting when the need for a Plan B was raised at Conference.

    We will not see Independence under the SNP because they do not want it. The Short Money is too attractive and Membership of the Private Club at Westminster too lucrative, not only for the MPs, the MPs MUST donate a healthy chunk of their salary to SNP HQ.

    I still expect my Nation to regain it’s Independence but as an individual I no longer expect to see it in my lifetime.

    During the 2012/2014 period I never doubted that the SNP was fighting for Independence by the target date. I left the Party when it became blatantly obvious that Sturgeon would never take up the required direct challenge to London.

    “Both Votes SNP” was to prevent any other Independence Party gaining a foothold in Scotland.

    The silence of SNP MSPs and MPs tells you all you need to know. As long as Scottish voters keep putting these cretins into power we will never see Independence.

  22. Shug says:

    Ha ha ha what and absolute belter of a summary

    If they go for a GE plebisitary it can only be because they want to lose because that is their brief.

    Wonder if they offered her unrestricted control over Scotland in return for compliance

  23. Colin Alexander says:

    The SNP would not be seeking a mandate to declare independence in any referendum as they adhere to and uphold the British/ English doctrine of sovereignty of UK Parliament / subjugation of the sovereign people of Scotland.

    The SNP / Scot Govt clearly argued at the Supreme Court, the intention of an indyref would be to gauge public opinion to no legal effect. The same would be true of a de-facto referendum via an election.

    It is another SNP Groundhog Day where the SNP now exist to contest UK elections and win the right to administrate the UK state at great personal enrichment to the SNP politicians like Pete Wishart and Nicola Sturgeon.

  24. KT Lorimer says:

    Presumably the advantages of using a UK GE where SNP votes only count for Indy are –

    Most of the SNP incumbents get to stay on the Gravy bus.

    Less than 50% means Indy is shelved.

    Sturgeon can resign and pick up a lucrative post with the UN – the reward for all she has not done.

  25. Izzie says:

    I cannot see how another pro indy majority in a Holyrood election would change anything. We would still need Westminster to grant us the referendum. Nothing would change.

  26. Lenny Hartley says:

    Peter A Bell take it you have lost the plot, it was the rev’s blog your were commenting on.
    So any reasonable person would assume you were commenting on the Piece written by Mr Campbell.
    Must be tough when nobody reads your own blog and you have to spout pish on somebody else’s.

  27. Rev. Stuart Campbell says:

    “I’m trying to figure out why you might imagine I was referring to you personally”

    Who the hell else would you be referring to in a comment about my article on my website in which you constantly used the word “you”?

  28. Rev. Stuart Campbell says:

    “I cannot see how another pro indy majority in a Holyrood election would change anything.”

    Then I suggest you read all the articles we’ve previously published explaining that, most of which are linked in this one.

  29. Rev. Stuart Campbell says:

    “5. Westminster amends the Scotland Act to stymie any of these ruses.”

    That’s not a procedural outcome, that’s an extra-procedural outcome.

  30. Newburghgowfer says:

    Peter Bell! It seems you think that every Indy supporter is a Alba supporter. I would give my vote to Alba if its between SNP/ Greens . If you think Alba is some sort of stumbling block after 9 years of misery and incompetence under the SNP as a barrier to us gaining Independence well surely its not Independence you want. Pete Wishart does exactly what you do with his hatred of anyone but SNP! Do you share the same mirror ?

  31. Shug says:

    Colin Alexander
    I heard at a branch meeting that the plebisitary election was just to get permission to ask Westminster for permission to have a referendum (which is if course only advisory) and could be ignored.

    That’s the best idea wee Nicola has

    This is the nonsense this idiot from Irvine is selling.

  32. Bob Mack says:

    Is Sturgeon still promining a referendum by Oct 2023?

    Just to keep my calendar updated.

  33. Muscleguy says:

    @Rev Stu
    Who would the invading exactly? We don’t have a Guardia Civil equivalent so that leaves the army. Can’t use Scots troops, not reliable but also invading risks the Scots coming out of barracks to protect their fellow Scots.

    Also Polis are controlled by HR so you would get squaddies facing police with sub machine guns and snipers.

    The whole thing also risks UN Blue Helmets on UK soil.

    Finally the top Brass won’t play ball.

    None of it is viable.

    The problem with UDI is WM would cut off tge money and the computers used for govt procurement, tax etc. We need to put measures in place to avoid first which would tip WM the wink.

  34. Colin Alexander says:

    UK Parliament has 650 MPs and 771 Lords. If pro-indy politicians won every Scottish seat in a UK GE they would have 59 MPs. That would be far short of a pro-indy majority in UK Parliament.

    As I explained above, all an SNP de facto (opinion poll) general election referendum would achieve is electing Vichy collaborators back on board the UK gravy train for another five years.

    Electing a “pro-indy” majority to Holyrood, who would uphold Westminster sovereignty rather than the sovereignty of the Scots in Scotland, would give us what we already have now, gravy train, colonial administrator MSPs.

  35. Rab Dickson says:

    Peter ‘everybody is a clueless arse but me’ Bell
    Always a pleasure to read your measured tone.

  36. Robert Hughes says:

    Izzie says:
    11 January, 2023 at 1:36 pm

    ” I cannot see how another pro indy majority in a Holyrood election would change anything. We would still need Westminster to grant us the referendum. Nothing would change

    Nothing will change until * we * rid ourselves of the – self-evidently contradictory – notion that we NEED Westminster to GRANT us anything . We either fully grasp and apply the truth of our Sovereignty – or we don’t . If the latter , we’ll still be having this conversation by the time buffoons like Wishart are taking their place in the HoL and Scotland is nothing more than a region of Greater England *

    *Though the fiction of a United Kingdom would still be the name for this Sceptic Isle

  37. 100%Yes says:

    If Pete kept his slippers on he wouldn’t get cold feet and make a complete arse of himself again.

    Lets be honest on Saturday the SNP NEC is going to screw Scotland and the Scottish people over again.

  38. Chas says:

    Scotland will never vote for Independence, if it gets the chance, knowing that the SNP will be in charge of EVERYTHING.
    They have had umpteen years to demonstrate that they could be trusted to govern competently for ALL but have failed miserably. The evidence is clear.

    Can someone please explain to me what the SNP politicians in Westminster actually do-other than receive a decent salary, generous expenses, gold plated pensions and heavily subsidised work place facilities by the UK tax payer.

    No doubt the BPHB will be along shortly with their usual drivel of WE, the people, demand our constitutional rights, colonialism, sovereignty etc. They never seem to say if WE, the people, refer to 100% of all Scots or just the 1% they belong to! Mind you laws were passed to appease the tiny number of men wanting to be women and women wanting to be men only recently, therefore anything looks as if it may be possible.

    What a mess we are in with no sign whatsoever of it improving for the ‘ordinary’ man/woman who is happy with their gender at birth.

  39. robertkknight says:

    Party over Country, every time!

  40. George Ferguson says:

    @Chas 2:43pm
    Under an Alex Salmond Scottish Government competence was the watchword. When campaigning for Scottish Independence in 2014 I didn’t hear anyone complain about competence. Changed days now under Sturgeon they can’t do anything right. And take your pick on any public service but I think to say Scotland will never vote for Independence is bold. Sturgeon won’t be the leader forever.

  41. Rev. Stuart Campbell says:

    “Who would the invading exactly? We don’t have a Guardia Civil equivalent so that leaves the army. Can’t use Scots troops, not reliable but also invading risks the Scots coming out of barracks to protect their fellow Scots.”

    Spain didn’t INVADE Catalonia. The idea of the British Army undertaking a mass mutiny in defence of an undemocratic UDI declaration by the SNP is… well, let’s keep it polite and say “optimistic”. As is the idea of the SNP ever doing such a thing.

  42. Jockanese Wind Talker says:

    Rev I think there is also the possibility of Option 5

    The Greens join a Unionist Coalition for a few cabinet posts (think Nick Clegg and the ConDem coalition), they have the majority if they nominate and elect an SNP Presiding Officer.

    I think your statement below also applies to Harvie et al!

    ”Also, finding themselves in power for the first time in history, they’re hardly likely to vote to throw that away”

  43. desimond says:

    I see folk making fair comments here about process and approach, but in reality, the fact is no-one at Holyrood or Westminster seems intent to push and make Independence the priority item.

    For them..Its the wee drunk Uncle sleeping in the corner at Xmas Day Dinner…harmless really but hes a bit of an embarrassment really in this nice middle class house but given all he did for us years ago, what else can you do but entertain him now and again before facing the neighbours again without any loss of face until of course, he shuffles off into the ether for good.

    Im still shaking my head at Nicola doing the Super-StatesWoman for an NHS Press Conference yesterday, almost as if we dont pay Humzah for that role… the whole Mother of the Nation image control is tiring now.

  44. Colin Alexander says:

    http://www.wingsoverscotland.com/how-you-do-it/#more-133055

    Sets out the Wings plan for indy.

    Step 2 says: “The pro-independence parties all run the election on the same manifesto comprising the text below. (The paragraphs in italics are optional and only add clarity.)

    We believe that the Scottish people are sovereign, and we hereby announce our intention to declare Scotland independent and submit that intention to the will of the people in this election for their approval.”

    In Craig Murray’s current blog, he sets out his view on why Catalonia’s UDI failed but others succeeded.

    In short, he explains the Spanish state continued to control Catalonia’s state apparatus with those allied to Spain remaining in power and brutally enforcing Spanish sovereignty over Catalonia, such as judges, police chiefs etc.

    So, if Craig is right, it seems for Scottish independence to succeed in the face of the UK’s opposition, noble words asserting sovereignty require to be backed up with practical actions to assert and defend sovereign power as an independent Scotland.

    The SNP and Alba are currently led by UK Privy Counsellors who recently formally asserted the UK’s head of state, King Charles III, is their sovereign and liege lord. Also, every Scottish MP and MSP has sworn allegiance to the UK’s head of state and heirs.

    Not a rhetorical question: Who thinks any Scottish UK Privy Counsellor, MP or MSP will lead a Scottish revolution by asserting and enforcing the sovereignty of the Scots, if it means going against the will of UK Parliament and the UK Crown?

  45. Breastplate says:

    Muscleguy,
    I agree with you to certain extent.
    After being on this site and reading years of comments, I’m still unsure if we (the Scots) think of Scotland as a country, I do and most of the people I know do too.
    I think the majority of people in this country believe as I do, I’m just not sure (possibly a question for Rev’s next poll).

    Regarding the comparison of Scotland and Catalonia, which frustrates me greatly if they are considered direct comparisons rather than sharing some similarities. Do the people of Catalonia think of Catalonia as a country or do they wish that it was. I genuinely don’t know but I think it is the latter but I’m happy to be corrected.

    We seem to believe Scotland is a country and then act like it isn’t (Schrödingers Scotland).
    I think the people of Catalonia know that Catalonia isn’t a country but wish it to be.

    If we don’t know if Scotland is a country or not, how do we know what to argue for?
    Has Scotland ceased to exist, like some English lawyers have argued or has Scotland retained its statehood and can argue from a different viewpoint?

    We can whinge all we like about what other people (international community) might think but if we don’t know what we are ourselves then we’re probably not going to make a cohesive argument.
    Are we trying to gain statehood or simply trying to rectify some of the poor decisions we made in the past (various treaties)?

  46. Republicofscotland says:

    Yeah this a great route using Holyrood which could see us of this prison of a union this year, but whilst Sturgeon is at the helm its all just wishful thinking, for she’ll never go for it, and her spineless and gutless MSPs/MPs will back her play not to move on it.

    Though its always worth pointing out what a treacherous bunch of shits the SNP and Greens have become and how its THEM that’s keeping us under the Westminster thumb.

    So what’ the outlook then, well in my opinion we’re totally f*cked, in 2026 Alba might gain several MSP seats but the die-hard Sturgeonistas brainwashed by the party and the media will in my opinion see the SNP just nudge in seat numbers, and the Greens will once again team up with their fellow paedo/rapist enablers the SNP to run the show, and we’ll have five more years of sucking up shit dished out by the SNP/Greens and Westminster.

    BY then who knows what state Scotland will be in under the SNP/Green rapist,paedo enabling parties, I dread to think, they’ll have another five years to further f*ck up Scotland, and will probably be an influencing party come the following Holyrood elections, if Westminster hasn’t found a way to Stormontise it by then.

  47. Stumpy says:

    Next question for Comfy Slippers. Given that rumours about a snap election, probably late 2023, are rife at Westminster, and his party know all about them (because one of them is my source for that), would a 2023 GE be used as a plebiscite?

  48. DavidRitchie says:

    Only think that counts for me right now is the cost of living crises and the very overworked NHS

  49. laukat says:

    Is Sturgeon and Wishart’s desire for a General Election to be used because she knows that is the election most SNP voters will stay at home for?

    Scottish voters aren’t daft. They’ve seen how ineffectual any Scottish MP of any colour has been over many decades. There is no point in anyone in Scotland voting at General Election. Apart from Angus McNeil and Joanna Cherry there are no SNP MP’s who I would wish to vote back in.

    When you add that the most sickening sight for SNP supporters is votes for Independence being used to give people like Wishart, Nicolson and Blackman a seat on the gravy train and teh ability to promote their own pet causes then it emphasises the need to make the election not about them and about Independence. Even Pete and the SNP leadership know no-one would vote for them on a personal basis.

    The real Question for Pete Wishart is if we all vote for the SNP at the next election and return SNP members for all Scottish seats but inevitably the UK Government ignores requests for a referendum what will he do? Sit on his backside for 5 years? That would suit Peter quite nicely as he’ll be 70 years old and ready to head off into the sunset with his Westminster pension weighing down his back pocket.

    If Peter Wishart and the SNP want to use next UK GE as a plebiscite they need to offer something in return. I suggest that if they only stand for election if they commit to resigning their seat if the UK Government doesn’t agree to a referendum within 30 days of the GE vote.

    However I would much prefer we use the Scottish Parliament vote but similar caveats. If we get 50% plus one any Independence MSP must resign if after 30 days of the vote the UK Government does not agree to a referendum.

    We must make ourselves ungovernable and the UK ungovernable. If Westminster has to face by-election after by by-election it will cease to function and lead to English politicians clamouring to end the Union as much as pro-independence politicians.

  50. Republicofscotland says:

    I quite like Craig Murray’s route out of this union, if only we had a courageous FM willing to pull it off.

    “The UK Supreme Court was quite right within the narrow confines of UK domestic law. Plainly the Union of England and Scotland is a reserved matter under the Scotland Act of 1998, and the Scottish Parliament could not hold a referendum on it in terms of that Act.

    But UK domestic law is entirely irrelevant. The Kosovo Opinion of the International Court of Justice makes crystal clear that the domestic law of the state being seceded from, is not the determining factor as to whether a secession is illegal.

    Whereas the reliance by the UK Supreme Court on the criteria of the Federal Court of Canada in the Quebec judgment, over fifty years old and superseded by the cold hard fact of over 23 non-colonial secessions since, is simply laughable.

    But while the right of self-determination of peoples in international law is crucial in the case of Scotland, and while Scotland undoubtedly qualifies as a “people” because it is a long established historic nation with its own legal system, culture and institutions, there is one overwhelmingly important criterion for recognition grounded in pure realpolitik.

    It was long accepted as the only criterion for recognition that a state had factual, practical control of its own territory. That position has become softened by more principled considerations since the second world war, but the actual control of the territory claimed remains the most important factor in gaining international recognition.

    Why did Catalonia fail where Slovenia, Kosovo and the Baltic states succeeded?

    Because realpolitik rules in practice, and the Slovenians, Balts and Kosovans had obtained actual control on the ground of the land they claimed. The Catalans had not.

    Physical control is not a sufficient condition for recognition – see the Turkish Republic of North Cyprus – but in effect it is a necessary condition.

    The UK Establishment will never agree to Scottish Independence. Scotland’s resources are far too valuable to them. Scotland has to declare Independence unilaterally, and take it.

    It is no use doing this like Catalonia, where the Spanish civil guard and judiciary effectively wiped out the nascent state before it could breathe.

    A Scottish government, whether arising from the Scottish Parliament or from another body, needs in declaring Independence to ensure it has practical control of Scotland.

    That means that the organs of the state have to acknowledge the Scottish state. All taxes collected must go to Edinburgh, not to Westminster. The judiciary must apply Scottish laws and not Westminster ones, where they conflict, and specifically apply all new laws post the Declaration of Independence. The police must answer only to Scottish authorities. Ultimately so must the military stationed in Scotland.

    At the time Independence is declared, immediate action must be taken to ensure all civil servants, judges, police and military take an oath of loyalty to the people of Scotland and its new government, and renounce any previous loyalty to Crown and to UK political institutions. Anybody refusing must be summarily dismissed from their positions.

    We have the example of Catalonia before us. We also have the example of Egypt’s only ever democratically elected leader, President Morsi, who died horribly in jail after being overthrown by a CIA coup because he failed to take the elementary precaution of dismissing and imprisoning all the military regime’s corrupt judges. He should have learnt from Fritz Bauer.

    Let us not make those mistakes.

    Ultimately, it boils down to this.

    1) Westminster will never agree to Scottish Independence.

    2) Scotland therefore has no option but to declare Independence unilaterally.

    3) Any independent state must be prepared to defend itself by physical force from foreign attack. So must a newly declared Independent Scotland.

    4) All who refuse to serve an Independent Scotland must then be removed from all organs of the state.

    5) Once an Independent Scotland has physical control of its territory and resources, international recognition will soon follow. Brexit has completely changed the political atmosphere with regard to the crucial attitude of the European Union to London’s government.

    Not to mention that London’s government is an international laughing stock.

    Interestingly enough, in the discussion that followed my talk, nobody fundamentally queried the radicalism of this approach.”

  51. Stoker says:

    Calum says on 11 January 2023 at 12:21 pm:
    “Pete gloated on Twitter about a previous banning of the Wings account. That tells you something.”

    Nah! Correction! That tells you *everything*. 😉

    The guy is a grade-one piece of shit who makes it up as he goes along. A compulsive liar too. There’s a reason Salmond kept the likes of him away from the top table, we’re all experiencing it now.

    Wishart is a self-serving liar who blocks folk on his social media accounts, regardless of how civilised and polite they are, because his political knowledge is superficial and doesn’t run any deeper than soundbites.

    He blocks folk because he lives in fear of being exposed for the fraud that he is. That’s why he really *hates* WOS because he has been exposed on here numerous times. And unlike Twitter etc, there’s absolutely eff-all he can do about it.

  52. sarah says:

    @ Rev at 1.50 re “you” meaning you, the Rev.

    If Peter A Bell had written “one” instead of “you”, his meaning would have been clear.

  53. George Ferguson says:

    O/T STV news back on the Ferries tonight. Interview with Derek MacKay. An MSP who resigned in disgrace and kept his salary in any event. I suppose I better find out what the latest is in terms of the Engineering status of the Ferries.

  54. Mac says:

    If they do the plebiscite election it has to be a Holyrood. Took me a while to realize it,

    The pros outweigh the cons but the thing I never considered for ages was that Holyrood has the list dimension which also open the door of opportunity for AlBA to get a fair shot much more than they did last time being 6 weeks old or whatever ridiculous timescale it was they launched prior to the election.

    This is why Pete Pishart and the SNP are so against it. They are shitting themselves to give ALBA another chance at the same time.

  55. George Ferguson says:

    O/T What is it about the pre Christmas period that saw the Governing SNP bury bad news or indeed force through unpopular leglisation. From the workers themselves they fear the Ferries will not be deemed fit for purpose and will never sail. The extended interview with Derek MacKay later tonight on STV maybe worth watching.

  56. Chas says:

    George Ferguson

    I did not say Scots will never vote for Independence.

    I day say that Scots will never vote for Independence IF the SNP are subsequently in charge. A huge difference!

    You are correct that Sturgeon will not be in charge forever but who will replace her? I do not see anyone with even a degree of competence within the SNP ranks, either at Holyrood or Westminster. Joanna Cherry might have been in the frame but given the despicable treatment the SNP have afforded her I cannot see any way that she will get the job. If the poison at the very top is removed there is a chance that the dim witted amongst the ranks would vote for her but only to keep their snouts in the trough.

    I see that one of the founder members of the BPHB is posting the same tripe again. His/Hers/It’s monologue incudes some gems like-
    1)But UK domestic law is entirely irrelevant.
    2)Scotland therefore has no option but to declare Independence unilaterally.
    3) Any independent state must be prepared to defend itself by physical force from foreign attack. So must a newly declared Independent Scotland.

    Wow!

    Let’s not even put Independence to a vote. The fringe nutters want Independence by any means possible with no concern what happens thereafter or who forms a competent Government. Let’s go with them and ignore the majority. That would work! Mind you I will sleep easier in my bed tonight knowing that there are brave souls willing to take up arms to defend me should the need ever arise.

    As much as the hard of thinking want it, Scotland will NEVER be Independent until such times as the majority of Scots vote for it VIA THE BALLOT BOX. Which brings us back to ‘Would you vote for Independence with the current SNP in charge of everything.

    I would not.

  57. George Ferguson says:

    @Chas 7:04pm
    To quote you “Scotland will never vote for Independence” was your opening sentence. If there was by some miracle, a Scottish Independence vote tomorrow, I would as a Independence supporter vote “Yes or leave” in principle. I can’t be clearer than that. But I will throw you a fig leaf. We wouldn’t win it under Sturgeons leadership.

  58. Brian Doonthetoon says:

    Rev Stu has eloquently laid out how Scotland could be independent by the end of 2023, with no requirement for a Section 30 order or a referendum.

    https://wingsoverscotland.com/where-there-isnt-a-will/

    The fact that the “pro-independence” SNP have dismissed this route says a lot about the SNP currently. It is no longer a party abiding by its constitution. Its constitution states,
    “Aims
    2. The aims of the Party shall be:
    (a) Independence for Scotland; that is the restoration of Scottish national sovereignty by restoration of full powers to the Scottish Parliament, so that its authority is limited only by the sovereign power of the Scottish People to bind it with a written constitution and by such agreements as it may freely enter into with other nations or states or international organisations for the purpose of furthering international cooperation, world peace and the protection of the environment.”

    That this party is turning its back on its own aim speaks volumes. The SNP is quite happy to remain as a colonial government rather than give Scots the opportunity to vote for a non-colonial future.

    Makes me sick that I actually was a member.

  59. David Holden says:

    Off topic but I may be a yoon. Blocked by those giants of the Indy movement Pete Wishart, John Nicholson and also a few of the great and good bloggers P. Bell, Jeggit, Grousebeater and Barrheadbhoy. Oh well may as well go and get some bookings for the coronation and I can always collect my cheque from MI5 while I am down there. On a serious note we need a proper Indy campaign to stop the bickering and try and get back to the spirit of Indy ref 1.If we do not have a campaign at least turn our anger on NuSNP and stop fighting each other. Good evening Pet Wishart I trust you are well.

  60. SusanAHF says:

    I must admit that the SNP have made such a mess of things that I don’t know how we are to get independence, unless we appeal to the UN claiming colony status

  61. Chas says:

    George Ferguson

    “Scotland will never vote for Independence” was the OPENING 6 words of my first sentence. If you take the context of the FULL sentence you will understand where I am coming from.

    However I will not quibble with you as you appear one of the saner individuals who post here. Fig leaf returned.

    As an Independence supporter and someone who wants the very best for Scotland and it’s people, I would not vote for Independence with Sturgeon and her fellow SNP incompetents in charge. I cannot be clearer that that.

  62. SaorsaCat says:

    Rab Dickson says:
    11 January, 2023 at 2:22 pm
    “Peter ‘everybody is a clueless arse but me’ Bell
    Always a pleasure to read your measured tone”

    You beat me to it, but, you were far more polite than I would have been ?

  63. akenaton says:

    “I don’t have the “leverage” to “force” anyone to do anything. I’m some idiot with a blog. I can only point out the facts.”

    Well Mr Campbell…..The most relevant fact is that the Scottish administration is run by a corrupt, insane bunch of totalitarians and until it is removed en masse obtaining Independence would be the worst thing that could happen to the Scottish people.
    At least while in the Union, our women and children have a degree of protection from Murrell & Co, any UDI would simply surrender them to the delights that Harvie and Sturgeon have in mind.

  64. akenaton says:

    The most frightening scenario is that the Murrells have a change of heart and decide to finally go for Independence by convincing enough of the saner portion of the Scottish electorate to vote for them, Sturgeon wins and rides back into Edinburgh in triumph to address the masses and be crowned president for life.

    Of course all the wings literature will be seized and commentators hunted down and reprogrammed in the special “hospitals” purpose built.

  65. dan2 says:

    More articles like this please. Pressuring the SNP to make the right choices is the best route forward. Facts and less emotionally heated. 🙂

    good stuff and you’re completely right. You never know, maybe they’ll uturn on what to use as defacto.

  66. George Ferguson says:

    @akenaton 9:01pm
    One of the delights of the festive season is you get to meet people you haven’t seen for a while. The women I met are already there on GRRB and it’s consequences. I expect that to translate into a dramatic fall in SNP support soon. Tomorrow Alistair Jack will refuse Royal Assent of GRRB, he is time barred and can’t do otherwise. I don’t know a single man who is in favour of GRRB. We are real people. Especially Stu a seasoned campaigner against GRRB. His twitter feed is the evidence. Won the argument and hearts and minds. Agree with the insane totalitarian Scot Gov but until the Scottish people vote them out..

  67. Lorna Campbell says:

    If, after 2014, the SNP had been serious about independence, taking into account that we had just lost the referendum, they would have put every effort into forming an independence unit tasked with researching and discovering every plausible route out of the Union and how to make the rules suit us.

    Neither the SNP nor the Greens pay even lip service to the law, so the SNP blunders into court cases that it cannot possibly win. Again, one of the first things that they should have done was employ people experienced in public and constitutional law with the remit to find a way out of the Union constitutionally, not greenhorns to fix it for ‘trans’. Then, every SNP/Green branch in Scotland should have been tasked with getting out the information to the public (public meetings, postering, leafleting).

    Day-to-day administration could have been concentrated on, while these specially tasked people and groups carried out the fundamental work of enabling independence at the grass-root level. Nah. That was asking too much. The odious and parasitic Greens had, and have, the SNP by the short and curlies, and changing the organs housing the short and curlies became their joint enterprise and priority. Independence took a back seat – deliberately done – and GRR took centre stage. The reason? Every public and/or SG funded group had been infiltrated by parasites like Scottish Stonewall and the Scottish Trans Alliance, etc. Public monies have been diverted to these ‘trans’ lobbying groups to the detriment of both women’s issues and independence itself.

    Your piece has the ring of authenticity, Rev, and could work (we can’t achieve independence without a form of prior consensus and consent, and you have laid out how to get that). All very laudable and workable. Or it would be if the SNP/Greens were not in contention. We must understand that the GRR is just the beginning on a long road to Queer Theory paradise and neoliberal global corporatism. A goodly number of laws must be brought down before then, and many new ones instigated to keep the population compliant. That is going to take money and effort. So will independence, but they have already laid their cards on the table with the GRR and, now, the ‘conversion’ nonsense.

    If we want independence, we either have to root out this stuff or we play along until we get it, then give the SNP and the Greens the doing they deserve. The second option is a pipe dream. It is essential now, even if you do not support ALBA or ISP or whatever, that they be elected at by-elections so that their voices can be heard at Holyrood, then we should tactically take out the chaff at Westminster. Just a few to get the message across. That will punish the SNP/Greens without weakening them too much, and give them food for thought. We need an overall strategy for how to proceed and it has to be on a war footing level if we want the SNP/Greens to listen, better still, to be afraid.

  68. Mac says:

    From what I can see being banned from Twitter is like being thrown out of Hell.

  69. akenaton says:

    I’m sure someone said “Cut off the head of the snake and the body dies” I think that this may be the only way to rid ourselves of the pestilence. Not using violence of course, but there must be evidence of wrong doing in abundance, are there no whistle blowers in Holyrood? abd if not, why not?

  70. Lorna Campbell says:

    akenaton: you are right. Leaving them to take us into an independent Scotland would be madness on stilts, and the women’s vote will be lost. That is why we need to have ALBA (with SALVO, SSRG, etc.) and/or ISP and so on, in there beforehand.

    The SNP/Greens must be made aware that independence must be their priority. If they continue on this path to ideological hell and totalitarianism, we will have no choice, I’m afraid, but to bring them both down. That alone will trigger ructions throughout Scotland. I rather think that Westminster will outflank them on this ideological ‘trans’ issue, but we cannot afford to be complacent about independence.

    I may be very wrong, but I think we are approaching a situation where the game is going to change completely. We must be ready for that. Sturgeon and Harvie will find themselves boxed into a corner on the ‘trans’ issue because they have been so utterly arrogant and have done no due diligence. Those who have been harmed or sidelined by this crapolo, when blood is scented, will move in, and that will be our time to take advantage.

  71. sarah says:

    @ SusanAHF : “…to the UN claiming colony status”.

    Agreed – try every possible route rather than hang around waiting for the SNP to do anything useful. It is frustrating, and scary, watching everything in Scotland become worse and worse due to the SNP/Green’s obsession with sex as opposed to their supposed primary aims of independence and the planet, respectively.

    Sign up to both Salvo.scot and Liberation.scot so that progress can be made on restoring Scotland’s Constitutional principles [people’s sovereignty over politicians; the Common Good] and independence via cases to the UN and the International Court of Justice.

  72. Morgatron says:

    Brilliant article on that pudding. CNTR ALT DELETE PETE.

  73. David Hannah says:

    Pete Wishart’s obviously been drinking tonight he’s going on about Albist’s following your take down.

  74. msdidi says:

    There is a new FaceBook group that was set up 6 days ago and has already got 6.3k members. They have one aim at present which is to get enough Independence supporters to form a CHAIN OF FREEDOM. The group is non party political. Take a look at https://www.facebook.com/groups/5785858594826639/?ref=share_group_link

  75. Derek says:

    Reply numbers seem to have returned (they weren’t there this morning), but not auto-name/email – although it drops down on the first letter.

  76. PhilM says:

    O/T but put here because I don’t engage actively with the Twitter.
    Read Alison Balharry’s thread today…please understand I am definitely not criticising her thread but I’m near 100% certain she told pretty much the same story a year or two back. I thought it was fairly shocking at the time, so I was surprised that many were only just picking up on the details and that includes the Express.
    I remember having a very brief exchange with Alison about Liz Lloyd (on this forum I think) who I had never ever heard speak and I was surprised to learn from AB that the Frank Sinatra of Scottish politics was from the north-east of England. I also remember Alison saying something along the lines that the Sturrells were not team players during the indy campaign and seemed to be using it as a way to jockey for the top positions afterwards. Apologies to AB if my memory is not quite right on that.
    Finally, we need someone like AB to write about their experiences during the campaign and if it has to be written so that people have to read between the lines a bit…well I’m sure we can live with that because we need to know what the hell has gone wrong with the SNP. Campbell Martin’s autobiography is suggestive about the allegiance of a couple of the SNP MSPs during his time at Holyrood but he wouldn’t name names. Everyone is always very coy about the subject of infiltration but…’thud’, sounds of scuffling, muffled cry…well, that’s enough from me. I’m off on a hastily arranged holiday or sabbatical to Pitcairn Island.
    That’s a very large suitcase…

  77. Geri says:

    Muscleguy 2:06 pm.

    Re Scots leaving barracks. I’d doubt it. They take an oath to serve the king.

    As for Stu’s article. No harm in the SNP trying cause they’re finished anyway, imo. May as well go out with a bang!

    But what happens in the event of YES? I don’t see it being recognised. They’d shut down the country & refuse to hand anything over or negotiate?

    Those barstewards have the whole word on thier side too cause of nukes, security council & warmongering mates as well as dodgy as fck tax havens for thier friends. They were warned before that losing us would drastically reduced thier status on the world stage.

    I don’t mean to be depressing. I feel it. It breaks my heart something chronic it wasn’t a Yes the 1st time. I know Stu favours 16/17 & EU but they voted no the last time so aren’t a guarantee.

    It’s a shit show.

    As for pishy Pete – sign posts & weathercocks. I’ve no time for weathercocks. That fecker was peddling backwards against indy since 2015. Thought he was father of the house to all the new intakes to show them the ropes at WM. Reading between the lines Flynn seems to think he’s an arsehole too.

    *In Still Game style* Pete the PRRRICK! 😀

  78. PhilM says:

    Solecism red light flashing…WHOM I had never ever heard speak etc.
    Apologies to all pedants wherever they may be.

  79. Robert Louis says:

    The problem for the likes of Pete Wishart and his ilk within the SNP is they have ZERO political acumen. Oh yes, he has been in the cesspit of London for twenty years, but really he has learned and done nothing, aside from how to get rich quick, whilst doing sweet b*gger all.

    You see, the SNP simply do not have the ability to strategise. That is obvious to anybody who has watched them since Salmond left as FM. To win a holyrood election for indy, after dissolving the government, they need to do it correctly. That means in the weeks ahead, preparing the ground, constructing the narrative to fit events, that the UK is a failed state (it is), and that Scotland is being dragged down by the right wing loonies crooks and thieves who currently inhabit 10 Downing street, W1.

    So, for weeks that is the narrative, and then at the time of the very next major crisis in London (it will happen and timing will be important), Sturgeon declares that given the mess in London, Scotland needs to be set free, but given that England has repeatedly failed to recognise Scottish democracy and the choice of Scotland’s people, she is left with no choice but to dissolve the gopvernment.

    Then, they continue the narrative that this is Scotland’s lifeline chance. This is the last opporrtunity to get back into Europe actively, to ensure Scottish services are run properly and the crooks in Westminster can no longer squander taxpayers money by giving billion pound handouts to their chums for nothing (see: Michel Mone et al.). The last chance to save the Scottish health service, etc..

    But of course all this requires effort. All this needs leadership. All this needs the ability to formulate a plan for Scotland, and not just to keep the SNP in power.

    Given all of that, perhaps Pete is right, since he likely knows that Sturgeon and her coterie of do-nothing no-hopers, just simply do not have the political nous to pursue such action. ‘Strategy???? What strategy???? Oh, I know, let’s have another meeting….’

    Their is one man who CAN (and already did) deliver a strategy for independence, Alex Salmond. The best bet is to support the ALBA party.

    The SNP, the ‘we haven’t a feckin clue, and frankly don’t care’ party.

  80. John Main says:

    @ George Ferguson says:11 January, 2023 at 9:36 pm

    “I expect that to translate into a dramatic fall in SNP support soon”

    “until the Scottish people vote them out..”

    There’s “voting them out”, and then there’s sitting at home, helplessly grumbling and mumbling, AKA abstaining.

    Who do we vote for in order to repeal/kill the gender woo woo?

    Which mainstream party or parties have made a commitment that if they get elected, self id will be off the statute books in Scotland, either stopped, or repealed if already passed?

    Sure, we can all stop voting SNP, to “teach them a lesson” and make ourselves feel better for a day, but if nothing else changes, then maybes we need to be smarter than that.

    One of the things that has always exercised me about politics is just how seldom existing laws get repealed. Endless debate and acrimony when the new laws are being proposed, yet once they are passed, even if the opposition subsequently takes power, the laws are retained.

    Has Alba committed to repeal of the gender woo woo if elected? If the lunacy truly is as unpopular as is claimed, then it’s a sure-fire vote winner for Alba.

  81. Republicofscotland says:

    The Tory PM to meet up with Sturgeon in Bute House tomorrow, he’ll tell the Judas where he wants his freeports to be.

    No doubt Sturgeon the betrayer of Scots will do her usual kowtowing to a PM in private, and agree with his plans for Scotland as long as he doesn’t interfere with her GRRB, HCB etc. By the time we get sturgeon and her rapist/paedo enabling MSPs out of office, Scotland will be in a terrible state.

    “I have been asked on here if I have ever looked at the benefits of freeports. The honest answer is no, but that is because I have never been able to find any such benefits.”

    https://twitter.com/RichardJMurphy/status/1551608176193294343

  82. George Ferguson says:

    @John Main 9:09am
    We won’t need to repeal GRRB because it will not become law in the first place. This morning I received an email about the petition I signed to amend the Equality Act 2010. Basically it says there has been a delay in the Government response. Kemi Badenoch has been asked why?. I expect Alistair Jack to announce today that he will deny Royal Assent of GRRB because of the impact on the wider UK. The SNP/ Greens have expended an inordinate amount of political capital for nothing. This may affect their polling in the next election as women remember the lack of protection the Bill afforded them.

  83. Stoker says:

    I don’t see this achieving much more than giving folk another day out. But i’ll play my part and help them by promoting this:

    msdidi says on 11 January 2023 at 10:51 pm:
    There is a new Facebook group that was set up 6 days ago and has already got 6.3k members. They have one aim at present which is to get enough Independence supporters to form a CHAIN OF FREEDOM. The group is non party political. Take a look at https://www.facebook.com/groups/5785858594826639/?ref=share_group_link
    ________________

    I don’t do Facebook so can someone let them know they might want to try getting the media involved. Particularly the media outwith the UK. As far as UK media goes perhaps The National may be interested? And if they want to truly portray a united front perhaps it’s a good idea to get some big pro-indy political names from all backgrounds involved? Good luck to all involved.

  84. ronald anderson@gmail.com says:

    Msdidi 10.51

    I had a look at that group site / 1st thing I noticed was the name of Indy Truck Davy ( the STURGIONITE promoter ) as is his co presenter Milligan / Siobhan Blaschek promotes both McGuinness & Milligan F/B vids / I remember some time ago Milligan suggested their viewers start up these groups to promote SNP indy .

    I was a former friend of Davy McGuiness so be WARNED DON’T JOIN THIS GROUP OR ANY OTHERS WITH McGUINNESS or MILLIGAN mentioned .

  85. Ian Brotherhood says:

    In case anyone’s interested, there’s a protest against GRR Bill at midday, outside the Scottish parliament.

    😉

  86. Republicofscotland says:

    One of Whitehall’s favourite House Jocks doesn’t even want a de facto GE indyref, not that they’ll be one, this utter House Jock wants us to until well, whenever.

    https://12ft.io/proxy?q=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.thenational.scot%2Fnews%2F23245312.snp-mp-says-scotland-shouldnt-settle-de-facto-referendum%2F

  87. John Main says:

    @RoS 11:01

    It’s not all bad news in that link you posted:

    The National has also learned that top lawyers have been tasked with re-examining whether Scotland has a right to self-determination in an attempt to challenge last year’s Supreme Court ruling.

    See? Once these top lawyers get going, the SC ruling will be overturned!

    I’m guessing the top lawyers might take a year or two over their deliberations, but no rush if it finally sorts this out.

  88. John Main says:

    @ George Ferguson says:12 January, 2023 at 9:55 am

    Thanks for your reply, and a good point if things eventually turn out as you outline.

    But even if things do turn out as you project, self id will be back in Scotland in 2025, or earlier, once Labour take over at WM after the next WM GE.

    Sir Keir Starmer has pledged to change the law to allow trans people to self-declare their gender

    Easy enough to find online if you are innarested.

    So, I still believe that if Alba or any other party wants clear, blue water between themselves and others, they need to have clearly different policies.

    They need to have policies that we are prepared to go out and vote for, because we can’t get them by voting for anybody else.

    If the reported hostility to gender woo woo is as real as is claimed, then giving that hostility a political home is a no-brainer.

  89. Gordon Currie says:

    @John Main 11:20

    It was reported yesterday in The National that Alba had commissioned them:

    >>
    An Alba source has said the party has commissioned two experienced KCs and a top-flight London law firm to examine Scotland’s ability to invoke its right to self-determination under international law to push for a second referendum.
    >>

    Note the lack of mention of it being Alba in your quote from the rag.

    I doubt it will go on the long finger if AS is behind it.

  90. Ruby says:

    John Main says:
    12 January, 2023 at 9:09 am

    Has Alba committed to repeal of the gender woo woo if elected? If the lunacy truly is as unpopular as is claimed, then it’s a sure-fire vote winner for Alba.

    Who do we vote for in order to repeal/kill the gender woo woo?

    What do you mean by ‘the gender woo woo? Are you talking about the GRRB or the GRA2014?

    Where & when are you expecting Alba to repeal this ‘gender woo woo’ that you are talking about?

    Two possible ways to kill ‘the gender woo woo’

    1. Vote for independence & then a party that says no to all sex changes & gender recognition.

    2. Hope that the UK Gov will repeal the GRA 2014.

    https://petition.parliament.uk/petitions/628382

  91. Dickie Tea says:

    Pension Pete prefers a Westminster plebiscite because it excludes 16/17 year olds and will result is status quo and a few more years to add to his pension fund.

  92. Ruby says:

    https://archive.is/8eFcR

    ‘Thoughtful’ Scots will pick UK over EU, claims Alister Jack

    “There is no desire in Scotland to have membership of the EU,” he said.

    This declaration by Alistair Jacks reminds me of someone who used to post here quite a lot I can’t remember his name.

    He always knew what ‘right thinking Scots’ were thinking.

    It seems you can just say anything without any proof you just start of by saying most sensible Scots or in the case of Alistair Jack thoughtful Scots.

  93. stuart mctavish says:

    RoS @ 9:55

    If she agrees to let him stick them in the Southern port of Dralington she could prolly still go behind his back and claim the Barnet consequentials up front, then pull plug on the UK financing and do the ports whichever way works best for all of Scotland thereafter.

  94. Ruby says:

    https://archive.is/N3Ofj

    SNP MP warns independence could be killed off for generation in de facto referendum

    Says longest serving nationalist MP with his fingers crossed.

    Must be time for Sturgeon to resign and hand over to someone who can find something better than
    “just about the worst possible way to settle the constitutional future of Scotland”

  95. Ruby says:

    John Main says:
    12 January, 2023 at 11:34 am

    Sir Keir Starmer has pledged to change the law to allow trans people to self-declare their gender

    What do you mean by gender?

    In England they pretty much already have self-id so what Starmer is proposing wont make much difference.

    Currently in England to prove you are a ‘woman’ you require to live for 2 years as a woman. How can you require someone to live for 2 years as a ‘woman’ and ban them from ladies toilets, changing rooms & prisons.

    Eddie Izzard & India Willoughby have both self-ided as ‘women’ as have all the other rapists & sexual deviants that we read about.

  96. Luigi says:

    Slippers: “These are my principles, First Minister”….

    FM: “Peter!”

    Slippers: “THESE ARE MY PRINCIPLES, First Minister”, “THESE ARE MY PRINCIPLES….!!!!!!!

    …..and if you don’t like them, well I have others!”

  97. Stoker says:

    ronald anderson@gmail.com says on 12 January 2023 at 10:20 am @
    Msdidi (10.51):

    “I had a look at that group site / 1st thing I noticed was the name of Indy Truck Davy ( the STURGIONITE promoter ) as is his co presenter Milligan / Siobhan Blaschek promotes both McGuinness & Milligan F/B vids / I remember some time ago Milligan suggested their viewers start up these groups to promote SNP indy . I was a former friend of Davy McGuiness so be WARNED DON’T JOIN THIS GROUP OR ANY OTHERS WITH McGUINNESS or MILLIGAN mentioned.”

    That’ll explain why, after them making a big deal about *NO POLITICS* and being a *NON-PARTY* organisation, if you scroll through their Facebook comments there’s a clear post from some woman stating something along the lines of “Just like Nicola’s Government, everything’s in hand.”

    Breaking their own rules already (Rule No5). Tut! Tut! Feel free to delete my earlier comment at 10:14 am, Stuart.

  98. Robert Hughes says:

    Ruby says:
    12 January, 2023 at 12:13 pm
    https://archive.is/N3Ofj

    ” SNP MP warns independence could be killed off for generation in de facto referendum ”

    ” Says longest serving nationalist MP with his fingers crossed. ”
    Lol , aye Pee Wee shiteing himself his looooong tenure as Head of Troughing @ Grannie’s Heilan Hame Fae Hame could be in jeopardy .

    Like the proverbial broken clock , he’s right , though , when he says the * proposed * UKGE as Pleb Elect on Independence is … “just about the worst possible way to settle the constitutional future of Scotland”

    Which is clearly why Stoogeon is proposing it .

    Even supposing it goes ahead , the chances of gaining the requisite % of seats AND votes are just about zero , and , of course – unlike in a Holyrood equivalent , there will be none of the younger cohort or EU residents eligible to potentially boost the pro-Independence vote , as ( anecdotal ) evidence suggest it would in a homegrown P.E/Ref .

    Further supposing the wildly improbable scenario of a UKGE-as-P.E was successful , all that’s being suggested is that this would only continue the craven pleading for a S30 . ergo ….we’d be in exactly the same place we are now .

    Sure , we’ll hear the same dribbling incontinence from the usual suspects about how whatever shade of blue Party wins the next GE will be ” unable to refuse the Demo…blahblahblah voice of ra Peepul ” . And not at all surprisingly , it will be seen that , in fact , the UK is easily able to make that refusal . And will.

    More than a little disheartening that ALBA aren’t really proposing anything different in terms of approach .

    Until someone/Party does , the Sisyphean futility will continue

    THERE IS NO ROUTE TO INDEPENDENCE VIA WESTMINSTER .

  99. Derek says:

    O/T There’s a programme on Radio 4 about the ferries later on.

    https://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/m001h44r

  100. Wilson McBride says:

    Sturgeon and her SNP are where they are purely through using “grievance politics”.

    All they do to keep their voting numbers high is to blame Westminster and the English Tories for every conceivable problem that has blighted Scotland over the last eight years.

    Whether it’s not enough funding, to blocking IndyRef2.

    EVERYTHING can be blamed on the English government.

    Health service.
    Education.
    Local government.
    Employment.

    Every department of the Scottish government is in freefall.

    All Sturgeon has to do to keep her gullible flock onboard is blame the Tories

    And up to the present day it’s working.

    Even the Gender Bill that has just been passed at Holyrood looks likely to be slapped down by the Evil Tories.

    And surprise surprise, her tactics of using grievance politics will kick in again, and she’ll scream from the rooftops about how those bad Tories blocked her once again.

    Her ratings will get another boost, and the poison Dreghorn dwarf will live to fight ANOTHER day.

    If it wasn’t for her grievance politics, she would have been out the door long ago.

  101. Lenny Hartley says:

    Derek, re Ferries.
    My spies in the Isle of Man tell me the 1998 roro capacity 600 passengers, mainly configured for freight. Ben ny chree ( locally known as the Bendy cherry due to number of collisions! has had) has been surveyed by Cal-Mac
    The IOM steam packet will be taking delivery of the new Manxman built in South Korea, ordered 2020 Laid down dec 21, launched june 2022 enters service this spring cost 78 million
    Bigger than Glen Sannox 30 metres longer nearly twice as wide, similar passenger capacity but significantly higher vehicle and freight capacity.
    If you want to see what others get for nearly the same cost as Glen Sannox have a look at this!
    https://en.tallink.com/mystar

  102. sarah says:

    @ ronald anderson @ 10.20 a.m.: “be warned…don’t join any group with McGuinness or Milligan in it”

    Ronnie, Judith Reid on Inveryess facebook has listed 197 Yes groups that have contacted the Chain of Freedom organisers. Judith may be one of the organisers – could you please alert her to the problem in order to prevent some disaster befalling all the good people involved?

  103. James Che says:

    Ebok.

    I read you’re cooment theother day regards Alba, and as another founding member tend to agree with you,

    Alba, other than Kenny & Neale are following is the foot prints of the SNP, in going cap in hand asking their bosses in Westminster to to listen to them,
    Asking for permission to be heard in their own country, Scotland.

    It is pathetic, it has no initiative, no originality to it and no spark, all talk and very little real action, just carrots for the future sometime in the future if they can achieve a bigger party presence in the Westminster legislation,
    Party before people is not inspiring to myself or anyone else.

    Not enthusiastically embracing Salvo, was quite a eye opener too,
    If I were Alba, I would have approached that idea as any contribution to gaining independence from Scottish people as a good addition by way of stock piling political ammo.
    But there was contention to the idea very similar to outside ideas entering into the Snp party cutting out members contributions.

    It goes without saying that the only thing stopping Scotland being a independent Country is the so called treaty of the union.

    Without this treaty, there is no union, there is no SNP, there is ” no” fake Scots Laws being passed in Scotland under devolved government back door Westminster laws given Royal assent to go ahead by a family whom has implied connections to epsteins way of living.

    It goes against a Colonisers believes to free the people.
    It is the people that will will find the causes and legal loopholes to free themselves.
    Not a political party that will eventually receive its funding and finances from the very roots of the system it claims it wants rid of.

    The SNP are not a very big problem, in fact they are small town gossip compared to having a true Scottish parliament that is directly accountable to the Scottish people.

    If this was the true status of a parliament in Scotland, the SNP would have had boot marks in the back of their behinds a few years ago,

  104. James Che says:

    Waiting for ones comments to appear is like waiting for Christmas in January.

    It says they are sent, after submitting, but this can vary from a few minutes to half an hour to never appearing. And yet it is the same process as it was long ago,

    Except for having to manually having to provide mail address in each instance.

  105. Merganser says:

    Pete’s insurance policy.

    The de facto election is being tee’d up to fail. Pete is trying to have his cake and eat it (surprise surprise). He will be able to say ‘I told you so’ when it fails. In the unlikely event it succeeds he will claim ‘what a wonderful victory, weren’t we brave’. The odds are at least 100 to 1.

    It just guarantees him and the rest of them another 5 years of easy life and loads of money, and who knows, a seat in the Lords.

    Lord Wishart of Muck sounds about right.

  106. Geri says:

    I don’t see Labour winning the next GE.

    He’s went out of his way to be more Tory than Tory & piss off thier core support every time he opens his mouth. From betrayal of Corbyn to EU & Gender woo.

    As for Davey. I used to enjoy ranty Dave but once he stated the Saint Nicola pish, the Queen of hee-haw – or the classic GRB ‘I dinnie ken whit this is aw aboot but just shut it for indy eh?’ I’m done.

    Same with Gordon, ever the optimist. Chemical Ali – while Holyrood burns in the background – he’s still banging on Sturgeon will save the day & there’ll be a ref next week! It’s crunch time. Okay, it’s not this week but definitely next week! 8 fkn yrs later! 😀

  107. msdidi says:

    Why the nit-picking about who is in the group CHAIN FOR FREEDOM? At least they are organising something. I did join and nobody has asked me to change my ALBA profile picture. Some Independence supporters will be in a Party, others members of YES hubs some not. Many will still be SNP…but support for YES is the number 1 priority.
    “Atticus says you can choose your friends but you sho’ can’t choose your family, an’ they’re still kin to you no matter whether you acknowledge ’em or not, and it makes you look right silly when you don’t.” The Indy family is a broad church and we need to be alert to the unionist tactics of divide and rule.
    As in the fight against the GRR…where would we be if we said ” I canny oppose this bill cos’ I’d be standing with Murdo Fraser”?
    Now at 6.6k and include some well kent faces.

  108. Ruby says:

    Gordon Currie says:
    12 January, 2023 at 11:36 am

    @John Main 11:20

    It was reported yesterday in The National that Alba had commissioned them:

    >>
    An Alba source has said the party has commissioned two experienced KCs and a top-flight London law firm to examine Scotland’s ability to invoke its right to self-determination under international law to push for a second referendum.
    >>

    Note the lack of mention of it being Alba in your quote from the rag.

    I doubt it will go on the long finger if AS is behind it.

    Cheers Gordon for that info.

    Here’s link to the article

    Alba hire lawyers to probe alternatives to SNP’s de facto vote

    https://archive.is/PDI6D

    That is interesting.

    I had to google the expression ‘will go on the long finger’

    I didn’t know that expression but now I do. 🙂

    I wonder who those who are complaining about Alba will vote for.

  109. Derek says:

    Lenny, that Tallink one may well be for the Helsinki “booze cruise” trips. Drink is expensive in Finland, but once outside territorial waters…!

    My friend’s work’s Chrismas night out one year was that trip.

  110. sarah says:

    @ msdidi: some years ago there was some controversy, if I remember correctly, between the Wings stall workers such as Ronnie, and others. I don’t know any more than that.

  111. Ebok says:

    Ruby says:

    ‘I wonder who those who are complaining about Alba will vote for’

    ALBA, Ruby.

    PS I cannae dae these emoji’s, but just imagine I’ve added the one with the smiley face + wink.

  112. twathater says:

    I equate indy truck Davy with P A Bell it’s my way or the highway , both are so wedded to the snp irrespective of ANY damage sturgeon has inflicted on it, they are so entrenched in their snp beliefs that they can’t see the division and treache-ry that sturgeon and her morons have deliberately and enthusiastically foisted on us

    This party loyalty has been the bane of the independence movement and still is, how can anyone with half a brain DEFEND 8 years of corruption, lies ,obfuscation, failure and most of all INACTION from a narcissistic perverted deviant who has been given mandate after mandate from the ELECTORATE to get us out of this rancid fetid union , YET they still defend and rally to this tractor who has NEVER CHALLENGED WM on ANYTHING
    If truth be told if we had elected liebour or tory in the last election we wouldn’t be any worse off ,and if we had their gross incompetence and mismanagement would probably have recruited more independence supporters, instead through the stupidity of PARTY LOYALISTS and loyalty we are further away from independence than if we had voted for the unionists

  113. ronald anderson@gmail.com says:

    Msdidi I never fell out with MgGuinness he’s fell out with me / Iwas the person driving round Shotts promoting ALBA as he said in his vid / my point being is that both McGuinness/Milligan are staunch SNP Sturgionites thats why Milligan asked their viewers/supporters to set up these groups Milligan has a server in his office no doubt he’ll be linked up to those groups to control them / they support Indy but only through Sturgeon n Snp .

    Sarah 4.29

    I haven’t a clue what you mean McGuinness & Wife always visited the Wings stall + he read WoS blog .

  114. Ruby says:

    Ebok says:
    12 January, 2023 at 5:16 pm

    Ruby says:

    ‘I wonder who those who are complaining about Alba will vote for’

    ALBA, Ruby.

    PS I cannae dae these emoji’s, but just imagine I’ve added the one with the smiley face + wink.

    Ah naw you need to learn to do the emojis the few that are allowed on wings.

    Winky thing – ;*-*)
    take out the * and you get 😉

    Smiley thing – :*-*)
    same take out the * and you get 🙂

    Frowny sad thing – ;*-*(

    You know what to do

    you get ;-(

    That’s the lot winky, smiley, sad

    Its a bit ;-( but then it does stop people from going mad with the peach, eggplant, sweat drops, poo, cherries, rainbows & all the other weird & wonderful emojis available elsewhere which could be misunderstood. 😉

  115. Ruby says:

    Oops mistake should be

    Frowny sad thing – :*-*(

    You know what to do

    you get 🙁

  116. Ebok says:

    Cheers, Ruby.

  117. sarah says:

    @ ronnie anderson: I was trying to answer msdidi’s comment in case you hadn’t spotted it but obviously got it arsy versy!

    Do you think there is a serious problem with the Scotland Freedom Chain? I was thinking that perhaps the sheer number of Yes groups involved might swamp a few questionable individuals.

  118. Mike says:

    “Im still shaking my head at Nicola doing the Super-StatesWoman for an NHS Press Conference yesterday, almost as if we dont pay Humzah for that role… the whole Mother of the Nation image control is tiring now.”

    She did same with Jean Freeman all through covid.



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