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Wings Over Scotland

Out on the road again

Posted on December 01, 2021 by

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    623 to “Out on the road again”

    1. Bill Fraser says:

      Glad to see Craig out. Very articulate speech that hits home.

    2. Ian McCubbin says:

      Saw this on Facebook, good to see him free and excellent speech.
      But what an indictment of the society we live in that he was sent to prison.

    3. Terry says:

      And great to see RobinMcAlpine there too.
      A powerful speech by Craig – what a man! Gives you hope

    4. Alison Brown says:

      Great speech! An absolute disgrace he was sent to prison – corruption coming from the top!

    5. Stephen OBrien says:

      Great to see Craig looking well and back in the arms of his family! I look forward to seeing him shame the Scottish Government (Nicola Sturgeon) and the Courts in the European court of human rights

    6. ronald anderson says:

      Ill health stopped me from being at Saughton yesterday but glad to see some of the stalwarts were there Wee Annie Jenkins wie her Wings Flag . All the Bestest Guys n Gals .

    7. blackhack says:

      A decent man, treated indecently….

    8. Kate says:

      Welcome home Craig, it is shameful that a country like Scotland with a party that is a registered Scottish Party & we the people of Scotland trusted this party to be our government.

      Could behave towards the very people who built that party up, by turning every part of our rights & freedoms into crimes, is something none of us could ever have dreamed of happening, the nasty way of trying to jail & destroy a friend of decades, proves she would as we say here in Scotland stab her granny in the back in the blink of an eye.

      I hope you sue her & the nasty cabal she calls her cabinet. For the injustice inflicted on you & your family through FEAR of anyone getting the truth, which would be if the MSM in Scotland ever had the guts to broadcast or print BOTH sides of the witnesses, no just the Lord Advocates Alphabetties side.

      To think that for 300yrs+ we as a country have blamed WM for every nasty policy & bill forced on us by another country, only to watch our own government do so much worse to this country and it’s people.

      If we do not ditch that party and ditch it soon, she/her will have handed over every part of our NHS, our WATER, along with every asset that makes this country richer than any of her FOUR Nations.. It is a party of TRAITORS to this country..

      She is the devil in carnet herself, Thatcher would be so proud of her.. Because no decent true Scot ever could be.
      Take time with your family Craig, can’t wait to see you take her to the cleaners..

    9. Josef Ó Luain says:

      Thanks for posting, Stu. Craig Murray is an inspirational figure in every sense of the word.

    10. And Spouse says:

      Loved the speech Craig.
      You’re right about Dignity, and Scotland seems to be losing any it had left. The world IS watching and I feel so badly let down by the cabal and it’s antics.

    11. P says:

      Great to see Craig again, in fine fettle and raising excellent points about social policy re prison reforms: Cop26 and refugees.
      Looking forward to his future blogs

    12. Betty Boop says:

      Humble, dignified, caring and compassionate, erudite, powerful – absoutely brilliant.

      The world, particularly Scotland, needs to hear Craig and others like him, many of whom we already know and are in our midst.

      Welcome back Craig.

    13. Mark Young says:

      Glad to see Craig back out into civilian life, & good to see he could still raise a smile.
      Hopefully in time the whole truth of the Alex Salmond stitch up by the Small Clique within the inner circle of and in my opinion including the FM too & will be exposed & if justice should be served on anyone it should be Witness H.
      She outright lied on Oath & should have been jailed fo Perjuring herself in the Witness Box.

    14. Scotspine says:

      Great speech Craig. I look forward to developments.

      Thanks for sticking around Stu. Great to see you blogging again.

    15. shiregirl says:

      Thanks for posting – so good to hear Craig is out.
      He should never have been in.

    16. Kate says:

      An excellent speech. Glad to have Craig back home. Looking forward to him getting back in the political saddle. First things first – time with his family.

      Welcome home, to Craig.

    17. Republicofscotland says:

      Yes watched this over on Craig’s blog yesterday, I still can’t believe that he was banged up in prison, without any real evidence to suggest he committed a crime, and I can’t recall anyone else going to prison for “jigsaw” indentification.

      Craig’s imprisonment, a political prisoner in Scotland, is just another sign of all that’s wrong in Scotland under the tenure of Sturgeon. On this matter several other IPSO/NUJ regulated journalists did identify some of the complainers, but the witchfinder generals office, aka the COPFS did nothing to pursue them, but instead they chose to focus on Mr Murray’s excellent and truthful coverage of Alex Salmond’s trial, it in itself a travesty, though thankfully the majority female jury found Mr Salmond not guilty.

      Many folk know that Craig’s conviction was all that it was made out to be, yet the Justice secretary Keith Brown, who was informed that Craig Murray isn’t a well man, did absolutely nothing to release him, if nothing we now have the measure of Brown.

      Sturgeon and the British establishment fear Craig Murray, not just because of his extensive knowledge on matters, but because he seeks independence for Scotland from this bucket of sewage union.

    18. robertknight says:

      Nothing but respect for Craig.

      Nothing but contempt for the COPFS… Crime Only Pays… For Some.

      We all know who should be in jail, starting with She/Her, her smiling assassin in the Civil Service, and a list of those who fabricated a narrative which unravelled under scrutiny.

      Unfortunately, it was unravelled by legal team of a calibre beyond most of our means. Spare a thought then for those who find themselves in the cross-hairs of the COPFS who can’t afford a legal representation equal in ability to Salmond”s.

      I’m listening to Craig as I type this – he’d be a huge asset to ALBA as a candidate. Fingers crossed…

    19. Patsy Millar says:

      That was the best bit of yesterday. Sorry I wasn’t there but life a bit fraught at the mo. Wee Annie with her Wings banner was one of the highlights for me. Hope all is well with you Stu.

    20. Brian Doonthetoon says:

      And the day after Craig gets out (Welcome home, Craig!) we have this good news…

    21. Breeks says:

      robertknight says:
      1 December, 2021 at 2:25 pm
      Nothing but respect for Craig…

      I’m listening to Craig as I type this – he’d be a huge asset to ALBA as a candidate. Fingers crossed…

      I agree 100%.

    22. Kenny says:

      Thanks for this post, and, naturally, I’ll tweet it.

      “Many people in Saughton who should not be in there”
      Quite a few who *should be* in there, and some – we know who you are – who’ll end-up in ‘the other place’.

      I can’t help but feel a recent and growing wave of optimism coming over myself and over our movement; we’ve had good progress and new members in Alba (I call them ‘No to Yes’ members), with Salmond quietly going-about his business of opening eyes and winning over minds, we’ve had Wishart, and others within the NO party, becoming clearly more desperate, and now we have Craig’s triumphant release and another crack-troop back to working our cause – must all be sending shivers up a few spines.
      Tall oaks from small acorns, we’re getting there.

    23. Aulbea1 says:

      Impressive, controlled & measured speech from outside Saughton – very glad Craig Murray is free again.

    24. gordoz says:

      Wonderful to see the great man in such good spirits after that ridiculous disgusting persecution conducted by our idiot FM.

      Welcome back Craig !!!

    25. Derek Cameron says:

      Inspirational from Craig Murray. A giant among the pygmies who tried to silence him.
      On the unsustainable distinction made between bloggers and “real ” journalists see English court decision in McNally v Saunders reported in Law Gazette 19 July 2021 where it was held that being a blogger did not disentitle that party to the protection afforded by law to journalistic expression.

    26. sarah says:

      @ Derek Cameron: McNally v Saunders sounds interesting. I was hoping that Craig need not go through the English courts en route to ECHR but I’ve changed my mind now!

      Craig, appeal to English courts NOW – it would be done and dusted by Christmas [well, quicker than going to the EHCR, anyway].

    27. Republicofscotland says:

      Someone has kindly uploaded a transcript of Craig’s speech from yesterday-it could useful for the hard of hearing.

    28. Robert Hughes says:

      Great to see Mr Murray out and in such buoyant spirits , his obvious good nature undiminished by his outrageously unjust incarceration.

      The pond life who put him there – like those who attempted the same against A Salmond – are not worthy of scraping the dirt off that man’s shoes and will sooner or later meet their nemesis .

    29. Dorothy Devine says:

      Great to see him out ,even disguised as Santa Claus.

      Welcome home to Craig and what a speech!

      Surprised there weren’t a plethora of cameras for STV and BBBC clamouring for interviews – not.

    30. Dorothy Devine says:

      Ronnie , hope you are on the mend – big hug!

    31. sarah says:

      Craig’s tweeting already! You can’t keep a good man down. 🙂

    32. Shona Paton says:

      Loved Craigs speech, excellent.

    33. Dan says:

      Mark Young says: at 1:40 pm

      Hopefully in time the whole truth of the Alex Salmond stitch up by the Small Clique within the inner circle of and in my opinion including the FM too & will be exposed & if justice should be served on anyone it should be Witness H.
      She outright lied on Oath & should have been jailed for Perjuring herself in the Witness Box.

      To refresh my jaded memory of details and timelines re. Witness X / Miss X
      If I recall correctly, differing letters were used to identify the same individuals in the initial inquiry and the latter court case.
      Can someone confirm that Miss H is the person that sent the message stating along the lines of “I think I know how we can proceed with this course of action and remain anonymous“, and is also the Miss H that wasn’t present on the evening in relation to one of the charges made against Alex Salmond.

      NB. DO NOT NAME THEM, Just confirm it is the same person or if possible list which Witness became which Miss.

    34. sarah says:

      O/T: Indy Live’s crowdfunder needs help.

      Yesterday there was understandable criticism of the sound quality on their coverage of Craig’s speech BUT they run a radio as well, with several hours of programmes daily INCLUDING John Drummond interviewing people.

      Look at Indy Live’s website and see if you agree that they deserve a few quid.

    35. Brian Doonthetoon says:

      Hi Dan.

      She definitely wasn’t in the building when the alleged r-a-p-e was supposed to have happened. She had contacted her pal to stand in for her. Her pal was the defence witness who testified she wasn’t there, as confirmed by the kitchen diary records.

      WHY hasn’t she been charged with perjury, for lying under oath?

    36. Dan says:

      @ BDtt

      Aye, I know about her not being present on that evening. I just want to 100% confirm she is also the one that sent the message.
      I’ve commented previously that there is no way someone could send that message with all the implications it has for some extremely powerful people, without having run it by extremely powerful people that could ensure it didn’t burn their entire house down.
      It just seems at odds with then putting oneself in a position of potentially being charged with perjury… unless they are just a complete idiot.

    37. sarah says:

      @ BDTT: “why hasn’t woman H been charged with perjury?”.

      Aye, the million dollar – or rather £600,000 – question. I would like to think that a civil action could be brought against her by Alex Salmond as it is very clear that Judge Dorrian for some reason, nor Criminal Offences Prosecuted – For Some [COPFS – acronym stolen from twitter] office will do anything about it.

    38. Graf Midgehunter says:

      Watched the speech a short time ago and I thought he looked quite well all things considered. The grub must have been OK as he still had a suitable reserve around the waist..!

      What I did like was the fighting spirit and determination that he projected, I think he’s going to make them pay for what they’ve done to him and the YES movement. 🙂

    39. Robert Graham says:


      Censorship on steroids in our media , anything to do with or making reference to the plague is strictly forbidden in fact Utube totally wipes any and all references contributors are having to self censor their comments even it they are backed up with reputable sources

      36 young athletes and footballers have dropped dead on the pitch all with heart attacks and no comments from our media , all just coincidence

      I would have thought this would cause alarm bells or is it another rare occurrence just like the best part of 2000 rare occurrences since the wonder Chemical was introduced, Aye a wonder concoction indeed most wonder if they will make it to the exit after their shot

    40. June Maxwell says:

      I get the feeling that those who were quick to incarcerate Craig Murray (and those who watched in silence) may regret it as he will now be able to direct a spotlight that will help reveal to the world the surppurating sore that is Scotland’s system of incarceration. A system that punishes (not rehabilitates, nor heals nor assists) the weakest, the sick and the most broken people in our society – the inheritors of inflicted poverty. Punishment piled upon punishment. All power to your pen Craig.

    41. Jan Cowan says:

      I wonder if the ScotGov cabal have realised their mistake in having an extremely intelligent, popular socialist wrongly imprisoned. Own goal absolutely!

    42. Jason Smoothpiece says:

      Good to see Craig out, shameful episode for Scotland.

      The man is an asset to our cause.

      I trust he will get justice in the long run.

    43. Breeks says:

      sarah says:
      1 December, 2021 at 7:30 pm
      @ BDTT: “why hasn’t woman H been charged with perjury?”.

      Aye, the million dollar – or rather £600,000 – question…

      I think it’s a lot worse than perjury. I’m not a lawyer, but there would seem to be a charge of perverting the course of justice, contempt of court, false witness, conspiracy… there is also subordination of perjury where somebody encourages another person to commit perjury… There is also defamation, where you’re destroying an innocent man’s reputation…

      Could be a lot of jail time and big fines if proven guilty…

    44. sarah says:

      @ Breeks: “it’s a lot worse than perjury – contempt, conspiracy, subordination of perjury, defamation..”

      Ooh, you know how to make a lot of people very happy! Please, please, may some of these cases happen soon. Perhaps Joanna Cherry would help? 🙂 🙂

    45. Benhope says:

      I notice that today many medical staff in The Southern General, (QEUH), have signed a letter saying that media coverage is undermining confidence in the hospital. I am not surprised.

      For about two years now, at any mention of the hospital the BBC runs the film of the little girl, Milly, who died of an infection while being treated for another condition at the hospital. This is not news reporting, it is a clear attempt to smear the hospital,the Scottish Health Service and the Government.The continuous showing of the film of this little girl is below contempt and really scrapes the barrel as far as BBC Scotland is concerned.

      How do we continue to put up with this from our tax-payer funded broadcaster ?

    46. Craig Murray can sleep the sleep of the just,

      Leeona June Dorrian, Lady Dorrian and Alex Prentice QC not so much.

      Leviticus 19:15
      “ ‘Do not pervert justice; do not show partiality to the poor or favoritism to the great, but judge your neighbor fairly.`

    47. Nosey says:

      Kate, brilliant comment hen. This government has to go the same with the Torys. And yes absolutely disgrace that we the people of Scotland voted and trusted this woman to lead our country, she has destroyed it in so many ways especially this GRA also bringing in the greens, that little tosser Harvis. and his lot getting mega bucks to do feck all. Also half the MP’s n MSP’s etc in snp doing feck but rip the shit out of the party they don’t give a toss as long as their salaries keep rolling in. Fkn comfy slippers Pete n that fat c*** blacford with his farm, 3 other jobs and a driveway full of brand new top notch range rovers. Make me sick the whole fkn lot of them. Get NS out along with her miserable disgusting cabal

    48. Graf Midgehunter says:

      Robert Graham says: at 7:54 pm


      “Censorship on steroids in our media , anything to do with or making reference to the plague is strictly forbidden in fact Utube totally wipes any and all references contributors are having to self censor their comments even it they are backed up with reputable sources

      36 young athletes and footballers have dropped dead on the pitch all with heart attacks and no comments from our media , all just coincidence

      I would have thought this would cause alarm bells or is it another rare occurrence just like the best part of 2000 rare occurrences since the wonder Chemical was introduced, Aye a wonder concoction indeed most wonder if they will make it to the exit after their shot”

      Young athletes, sailors, footballers, just about any sport you know. They’ve been dropping dead for decades and more from heart attacks, strokes, exhaustion, over-ambitious etc. etc. etc..

      We all know you’re a conspiracy theorist, anti-vaxer who’ll believe any thing from youtube, bitchute or anyone else who’ll try to convince the world that the dead and dying are piling up 10 high on the streets.

      If it was 2000 rare occurrences compared to the billions being immunised then we’re not doing too bad at all.

      No body is perfect, each has a limit even if you eat your cornflakes every morning.

    49. Hatuey says:

      Sorry to keep interjecting with references to actually existing reality and facts, but there was a major study into heart failure & related deaths involving athletes in the US over a 4 year period, well before Covid arrived.

      It found that about 50 per year were dying in the US alone. If you extrapolate on that basis, you should probably expect to see about 1000 to 1500 athletes dying with heart problems worldwide every year.

      You can read it here

      You’re welcome.

    50. Graf Midgehunter says:

      Exactly Hatuey, Robert Graham is trying to pin any and every abnormality on the vaccines. Apparently we’ll soon all be Zombies.

      Next week I’ll be getting my booster… 🙂

    51. Robert Louis says:

      As Craig Murray pointed out, ‘people can only take your dignity, if you let them’. He didn’t let them, and he has my absolute respect for his attitude and integrity, in the face of wanton cruelty at the hands of the Scottish government and so-called ‘justic’ system. That takes REAL courage. Jail IS tough. This is similar to other observers on the jail being used against the innocent (like Craig), and honest journalists who tell THE TRUTH (like Craig).

      I look forward to Craig Murray writing about all of this. Even more I look forward even more to the truth eventually coming out about the criminal collusion and corruption by the SNP Scottish government used against Alex Salmond and Craig Murray. One day, Sturgeon and her cabal WILL hopefully get put in jail. It may take years or decades, but when it happens I will cheer.

      This ALL resides at the door of the SNP. They will never be forgiven for what their administration tried to do to Alex Salmond (another innocent man), and what they have done to Craig Murray.

      I see that in ‘The National’ today, their is a great deal of hoopla being made about a poll showing indy support at 55%. In the past, I too would have been delighted, but now really could not care. What is the point? we have a Scottish government and First Minister, who have made it clear, they have ZERO desire to do anything about independence. It is, to them, a convenient ‘carrot’ to dangle before gullible voters prior to elections. No more, no less.

      The polls could show 80% support, and it would make no difference, because Nicola Sturgeon still thinks (or, rather, pretends) that we need England’s permission first.

      Nothing will happen until Sturgeon is booted out, and the current lazy, cowardly, careerist SNP cabal are shown the door. Nicola and the SNP are the biggest obstacle to independence. THEY are the problem.

      They/them are the REAL enemy within.

    52. Robert Louis says:

      Breeks at 0856pm,

      We can only hope that one day, those responsible are held to account. Scotland cannot even pretend to be a ‘progressive’ country until that happens. Putting innocent journalists like Craig in jail, is the stuff of dictatorships and the most corrupt administrations. THAT is Nicola Sturgeon’s REAL legacy.

    53. gregor says:

      Great news re. Murray freedom.

      ‘Freedom’ today is to be dependent on mandatory/big pharma (public health liability exempt) vaccination, annually, for life.

      Malicious media/State say it is time to talk about forcing biologically normal humans to comply with its scheme.

      How will Scotland punish and torture its non-vaccinated victims (systematically & socially stomping our well-being is a good start)…

    54. James Che. says:

      Welcome home Craig, Christmas spent at home with your family will hold a lot more meaning to you & you’re loved ones this year.

      But a new worry for journalists and journalism raises its ugly head with Priti Patel suddenly pressing through last minute pages in the new bill (protests include ) just gone through.
      A totalitarian Britain has arrived,

      Enough to worry the favoured guardian journalists,
      However the new laws may backfire as more journalists gather to fight for the right for a free press, similar to Craig.

    55. James Che. says:

      Governments will fall and crumbleover enforced vaccines, and mandates.

      Just about every country has thousands and thousands out on the streets protesting against them becoming mandatory,
      MSM think if they do not cover the stories, You will not hear about the world protesting.
      Greece, Germany, Italy, Australia, America, Britain.

      Just like they did not cover the big story that Craig Murray was Released out of prison,
      But covered the story of him being imprisoned.
      Just like they never gave the story that Alex Salmond was set up by corruption,
      But barely no coverage when a court found him innocent.

      The rest of the world are protesting against a two tier natzi society in their masses, but MSM avoid covering it, however the people are filming the protests themselves better than any journalists,

      Go search the protests in whatever country you wish to focus on and you will discover that millions of people do not want the mark of the beast branded to their passports and freedoms,

    56. Breeks says:

      Having slept on it, I still like the idea of Craig becoming an ALBA candidate, but at the same time, I hope that Craig Murray can be the catalyst that opens people’s eyes to Sturgeon and her corrupt ineptitude.

      And therein lies a problem, because many of those good people who’ve been duped by the SNP have also been brainwashed to see ALBA as the enemy, and Craig joining ALBA could just reinforce their paranoia.

      Sturgeon is doing to Independence what the Trans Taliban were doing to the SNP; go ahead, damage us, and you’ll be wrecking your own cause. They’re both using people’s firmly held beliefs as a human shield.

      So, I hope Craig Murray has a good Christmas and recovers his strength, but then I hope, as I said above, his disgusting incarceration becomes the catalyst for bringing down Sturgeon and her crooked cabal. That recent fall in her popularity is, I hope, a sign that more and more people are seeing right through her.

      Sturgeon needs to go, and soon, but I think there are risks involved if it’s seen to be ALBA wielding the knife. There are some who will never forgive them.

      For that reason, I am more and more in favour of the SSRG’s plan for a Constitutional route out of the Union, which, if memory serves, isn’t a million miles away from what Craig Murray was himself advocating on his blog a couple of years ago.

      The first priority must always be Scotland and Scottish Independence, of course it must, but I think the sweetest revenge on Sturgeon by Alex Salmond, Craig Murray, Joanna Cherry etc, would be to actually bring home Scottish Independence, and do it in a way that leaves Sturgeon and Holyrood impotent and irrelevant, and moved to the outermost periphery of the Independence campaign.

      That means, I think, a reinvention of the old 1980’s Scottish UN Committee, which did most of the groundwork for re-establishing a Scottish Parliament, but it did so with most of efforts going on underneath the radar.

      Wouldn’t it be tremendous to see Craig Murray running interference, creating merry Hell for Sturgeon as she tries to suppress her nefarious activities, ( I believe the expression is fire fighting on many fronts), while quietly in the background, the Treaty of Union is demolished by ALBA and the SSRG, and the UK Government’s colonialism in subjugating Scotland out of Europe quietly unravels until it falls apart.

    57. Robert Graham says:

      Oh the sheep have raised their heads

      Midgehunter as dumb as yer fkn name as for Mr Hatuey haven’t you dumb fkrs realised he’s a plant

      Anything I post is verifiable and true can you fkrs say the same ? go figure what’s going on that’s if your Vax induced stupidity can handle it , the latest deaths occurring in young healthy adults are nothing to worry about eh

      What about the 25% increase in heart attacks in Scotland yep a quarter increase nothing to worry about you

      Yer wonder serum won’t protect you or haven’t you dummies heard ? nothing to worry about , a total waste of time trying to convince sheep ,

    58. Republicofscotland says:

      Robin McAlpine nails it here on Craig Murray’s unjust imprisonment, Craig Murray must take this injustice to the European courts.

      What this says to me at least, is that Scotland has become a sleazy corrupt banana boat state, where laws, apply to some but not others depending on what connections you have.

    59. Hatuey says:

      Robert Graham, if “everything” you say is “verifiable and true” why haven’t you provided a source for the “25% increase in heart attacks in Scotland”?

    60. @Hatuey,

      from The Times,

      `Health experts have been left baffled by a big rise in a common and potentially fatal type of heart attack in the west of Scotland.

      During the summer there was a 25 per cent rise (260 to 300) in the number of people rushed to the Golden Jubilee National Hospital in Clydebank with partially blocked arteries cutting blood supply to the heart.`

    61. Hatuey says:

      Same question to Scott. Please provide a link.

      40 isn’t 25% of 260, btw, if that’s what your numbers are based on.

    62. Republicofscotland says:

      “ALMOST 1000 EU nationals living in Glasgow have had their applications to stay after Brexit rejected by the Home Office.”

      Its not that they were refused that gets on my goat, its the fact that a foreign country has the say on who can and cannot stay in Scotland.

    63. Tinto Chiel says:

      @ James Che 1.01: the following acts/bills will almost certainly pass or have already passed unchallenged by a Labour or SNP Westminster “opposition” during the Covid period:

      The Covert Human Intelligence Act
      The Police, Crime, Sentencing and Courts Bill
      The Online Safety Bill
      The Counter StateThreats Bill

      As you say, they all represent a concerted attack on the freedoms we took for granted only two years ago and will make sites like this (even in its suspended animation state) particularly vulnerable to strict censorship.

      I wouldn’t worry too much about Grauniad “journalists”: they sold out a while ago, and shamefully left Assange to his fate.

      But I’m pretty sure you know all this already: I’ve enjoyed your humane and perceptive comments over the last few months, along with others like Dan.

    64. gregor says:


      I believe this is the link you are looking for:

      In other more recent covid news:

      Peer reviewed science accuses covid managers of gross negligence:

      “…It appears to be grossly negligent to ignore the vaccinated population as a possible and relevant source of transmission when deciding about public health control measures…”:

    65. robbo says:

      Cambo oil field project scrapped !

      Well there ye go. I bet she knew this was coming just so her demands and blabber the past few weeks , climate change, they need to review it was all her doing etc etc.

      She was tipped off – I have now doubt.

    66. Hatuey says:

      Okay, so the 25% increase was at one hospital over a specific period and was explained as follows by Mitchell Lindsay, lead consultant cardiologist at the hospital;

      “There is not any evidence that it is as a consequence of any delayed care or missed opportunity. It is likely to be due to a multitude of factors: people being sedentary with lockdown; stress; people ignoring symptoms because they do not want to present at hospital. There are probably five to ten causes, all linked.”

      In other words, not causally related to the vaccine.

      It’s extremely serious because they had to increase the number of beds available at the hospital over the period by an earth-shaking 13.

    67. Fred says:

      Latest COVID statistical report published yesterday by Public Health Scotland – all ‘verifiable’ (for those that like that kind of thing) and irrefutable.

      Let’s look firstly at table 20. If we take the last week on record, 20th-26th Nov, there were 347 people hospitalised in total – and 105 of them were unvaccinated.
      That means 30.3% of hospitalisations were unvaccinated, and given that (which i personally don’t believe) the current rate of vaccination is 72.4 % then it just demonstrates that you are no more likely to be hospitalised if you have not received the vaccine compared to those that have.

      You may wish to argue over a couple of percent here and there, feel free, but those with a modicum of common sense will see this for what it is.

      Let’s look at the current COVID death rates.
      Table 21 shows 91 deaths in the most recent week on record – only 13 of them were unvaccinated – 14.3%.
      So, 85.7% of all COVID deaths were vaccinated (mostly twice).
      Given the current vaccination status is only 72.4 – what does that tell you?

      Put any desperate spin on it you wish – it doesn’t change these published and accepted facts.

    68. Dan says:

      A silver lining to Storm Arwen… And another step forward to being more self-reliant, and insulating oneself from the “energy crisis”.
      A few sessions with the chainsaw clearing blown over trees and I now have the next few year’s heating sorted.
      Well, I say silver lining, but that’s predicated on the powers that be not imminently banning woodburning stoves.
      Just need a couple of days for my decaying body to recover from scaling trees with the saw. 🙁

    69. Muscleguy says:

      @Robert Graham
      Don’t you call me a sheep. I have a biology PhD, I understand things you misunderstand and are ignorant/misled on. The crime though is that your mind is closed. You will not be taught, you will not listen.

      I just hope you are not one of these ‘if only I had had the vaccine’ as they get sedated for ventilation in the ICU. Was reading about another denier, fit, very healthy 40yo. Dead of Covid. There is only one way to ensure that is not you. Get vaccinated.

      Omicron has ousted Delta in Gauteng province in SA. It is here in Scotland. SA’s hospitals are overwhelmed. You saw India run out of oxygen supplies, people gasping themselves to death outside the overwhelmed hospitals.

      You are guilty of spreading untruths during a global health emergency which is ongoing. Shame on you, shame.

    70. Muscleguy says:

      Luxury a mature cypress took a hard lean south over next doors garden. All I had was a green wood cutting bow saw. I took it apart then cut it half, trapped the saw. Mortise chisel and dead blow mallet got it free.

      All on my side now. Need daylight at the weekend to get most of it out. A colleague may want it for firewood too.

    71. sarah says:

      Craig update: he’s speaking at Alba’s Christmas party, accompanied by Nadira. Great stuff.

    72. Dan says:

      @ Muscleguy

      Aye, your practice of manual “keep fit” wood cutting using a bush(wo)man saw rather than a powered device is admirable. But in my experiences of going au naturel avec la scie á bois I think I burnt off more calories powering the hand saw than I managed to harvest in stored wood energy.
      Pinched saw blades are best avoided as they can be a major pain in the rump to get out. Careful assessment of the tree limbs and potential pinch loading prior to cutting is all part and parcel of the game.
      I’ve got a couple of saws, and just as well as my fancy new Husky 560XP developed an ecu fault rendering it temporarily fooked. So much for modern tech eh. I therefore brought out the trusty ancient retro oldskool Husky 254 to save the day, and that fired up with a just a couple of pulls.
      I got that old saw secondhand off a Forestry Commission guy over quarter of a century ago and it just keeps on going. Think that is the model the Swedish Army got.

      The good thing about a storm is they ain’t fussy about what type of tree they blow down, so scored a mix of oak, sycamore and some big old elder firewood.
      Unfortunately I’ve utterly failed thus far to get anyone to join my self-sufficiency cult which is a great shame as the heat released from burning that wood could also be keeping numerous others cosey warm too.
      More cult members would also be a bonus as getting rather pissed off having to munch my way through the 7.5kg pumpkin and 6kg marrow I grew… 🙁
      I’ve barely touched the spuds but the kale yard is still supplying the greens even now that the temps are below zero.

    73. Tannadice Boy says:

      @Dan 8;45 and 10:54pm

      People have short memories. Arwen was supposedly a once in a lifetime event. Absolute nonsense. I experienced much the same over a working life. They privatised the Hydro (I worked for them for many years). 7 day outages were common place. February 1989 as an example of 90mph wind, a mere bagatelle. Just wait to get ice loading. Households had resilience in them days Raeburn etc. We had community plans and joint emergency plans with local authorities etc.
      SSE have decided to employ this week 680 plus distribution staff. Why?. Well the politicians through their Ofgem have sought reductions in man power. Reap the rewards, politicians can and do walk away. The fact that Sturgeon took until Tuesday to recognise the problem tells you all you need to know. I wrote of the hardship of people in Aberdeenshire on Sunday on this blog.

    74. James Barr Gardner says:

      As one who can speak from personal experience in regard to vaccines I will elucidate on my own experiences.

      I was extremely fit as a 62 year old, I thought as was doing well for my age however I did not know I had Pneumococcal ! That’s right I was walking about with it !

    75. Graf Midgehunter says:

      James Barr Gardner says:at 11:54 pm

      “As one who can speak from personal experience in regard to vaccines I will elucidate on my own experiences.

      I was extremely fit as a 62 year old, I thought as was doing well for my age however I did not know I had Pneumococcal ! That’s right I was walking about with it !”

      Pneumococcal disease can affect people at any age. The following people have higher risk of infection:

      babies and children aged 5 and under
      people aged 70 and over
      Aboriginal and Torres Strait Islander children aged 5 and under living in Queensland, Northern Territory, South Australia and Western Australia
      Aboriginal and Torres Strait Islander adults aged 50 and over
      anyone with a weakened immune system due to illness or injury
      people with a malfunctioning spleen, or who have had their spleen removed
      people with chronic diseases such as diabetes, lung disease, kidney disease, heart disease, liver disease or cancer
      premature babies
      people who have Down syndrome
      people who smoke
      people who drink harmful amounts of alcohol
      people who have had specific operations including cochlear implants and intracranial shunts
      people who have a condition where the fluid leaks out from around their brain and spinal cord
      people who have had pneumococcal disease before.

      James, are you by any chance an Aboriginal and Torres Strait Islander or just a Scot? 😉

    76. Effigy says:

      Great to see one of Scotland’s real journalists make
      this post and the other being freed.

      Just like when Pankhurst, Grandi and Mandela were
      imprisoned for standing tall on the moral high ground
      while the establishment sinks further into the sewers
      We will be proven right.

      The court in The Hague must see justice prevail.

      This is going to need a very large fund raiser!

    77. Robert Louis says:

      O/T regarding Holyrood access, and the SNP acting to prevent it. I went down to Holyrood last night, and noticed NEW concrete barrier support blocks which have been placed on ALL roads leading to the parliament. No barriers have been attached to them yet. They are on roadsides, including leading from outside the parliament estate. Please note, these are NOT the ones currently used to close off the park road at weekends. Bit by bit, road access to that area of Edinburgh is being removed entirely, with the road by duddingston closed due to some ‘rock falls’ (which, btw have been happening since I was a wee boy, but now mean main roads are closed permanently).

      People should take note. It strikes me, that plans are afoot, to completely block all road access to Holyrood, using one pretendy excuse after another.

    78. Breeks says:

      Robert Louis says:
      3 December, 2021 at 7:34 am

      ….It strikes me, that plans are afoot, to completely block all road access to Holyrood, using one pretendy excuse after another.

      Holyrood embodies the encroachment of Westminster’s convention of Parliamentary Sovereignty over Scotland’s Constitutional Sovereignty.

      It grants Westminster rule a foothold in Scotland when Scottish MSP’s accept they are subordinate to Westminster rather than servants of the sovereign Scottish people.

      Westminster’s hardcore Constitutionalists know full well what Holyrood’s status is better than most Scots do. It is a modern day Fort George; a Colonial Outpost which they will defend, but defend by having the less perceptive house-jock Scots amongst us do all the dirty work themselves.

      Look at the ego unleashed in Pete Wishart after so many years in Westminster. Can you imagine the wannabe Speaker of the House suffering the humiliation of a job in Holyrood? They’d have to widen the doors to let his big head through for one thing, but I believe Holyrood was designed and built without architectural prestige for that very reason. It was ALWAYS conceived as a lesser house lacking the gravitas of a true Parliament.

      All Scotland gained in 1998 was a Unionist lodger in Edinburgh. What Scotland conceded, was Westminter having purchase over Scotland’s inalienable Sovereignty.

    79. Stuart MacKay says:

      Angry Weegie’s post from yesterday, SNP – The Scottish Near-fascist Party, was short but it had one very important thing to say:

      Second, following independence, we need to elect a Scottish government that isn’t simply going to copy the worst of Westminster policy and wrap a tartan ribbon round it.

      Right now, I don’t see how this can be avoided. Every politician and person in a position of influence was born and grew up under the Westminster system. It’s all they know. When independence does come it’s going to take people of great strength and foresight to work methodically and diligently to avoid simply cloning the Westminster system. Failing to do that will leave us in a situation that is probably worse than it is now.

      South Africa is a good example. There was real progress under Mandela but the country soon fell into the clutches of the kleptocrats. You can forget citing the likes of Egypt, Romania, etc. those well all thinly disguised coups by the elites in power at the time. Even here in Portugal, after the 1974 Carnation revolution, the elites simply continued as before. It will take generations to clean up the corruption that stemmed from the nepotism and corporatism that was fostered to keep the regime in power.

      How to clean house from top to bottom without burning it down (metaphorically speaking) is certainly an interesting problem.

    80. Robert Hughes says:


      They’ve built a moat and are now pulling-up the drawbridge .The insulation/isolation of the Holyrood Cathars is almost complete . We know what happened to their antecedents

      Good analogy with Fort George compadre – Holyrood is indeed a colonial outpost , one without cannon and musket , just filled with straw men , useful only for bayonet practice by the occupying force .

      The Black Watch replaced by the Clock Watchers

    81. Breeks says:

      If you think that’s being unfair to Holyrood, I would remind you of our corrupt First Minister content to jail Independence leaning dissidents, who ignores repeated mandates from the sovereign Scottish electorate, but who presents Section 30 of the colonial 1998 Scotland Act, the small ‘c’ constitution of the Holyrood Assembly, as the “only” legitimate and lawful route to securing a Referendum.

      It’s not Boris Johnson blocking a Scottish Referendum. He has never actually been asked to grant one.

      We have rogues in Holyrood, and Holyrood masquerading as our Parliament, and Scots too dumb and constitutionally naive to work out we are electing representatives to embed and facilitate colonial rule from Westminster. Do you see the con of it yet?

      Sturgeon is their Gauleiter in Chief, and if you still don’t see it yet, ask yourself why we, the sovereign people of Scotland, have no impeachment protocol for holding either her, or Holyrood to account?

    82. Dan says:

      @ Tannadice Boy at 11:41 pm

      Community Resilience Plans only really work if you have a functioning community. Unfortunately the forced demographic changes in many rural areas mean that sustaining a viable community with decent engagement is very difficult.
      I know this firsthand as the Community Council in my area is no more due to lack of engagement from locals. Plus the few able folk with skillsets that could have served in community resilience plans have moved away now too.
      There are still some living in the area who could assist but they appear to work long hours to make ends meet, and with also raising their families have little if any time spare for external endeavors.
      I still voluntarily put in way more than my fair share to maintain the area and help those that live within it.
      But there’s only so much one individual can do…

    83. Iain More says:

      So have any parents withdrawn their sons from Tranny View Primary in Edinburgh or have they keeled over to the man haters and are the men allowing themselves to be mentally saturated and humiliated…

    84. Republicofscotland says:

      A leading figure in the Catalan movement for independence, can’t understand why Sturgeon hasn’t agreed to hold an unofficial referendum, knowing the type of English nationalist that Boris Johnson is.

      Economist and indy activist Elisenda Paluzie, said that Sturgeon could not expect to take Scotland out of the union without some sort of political conflict from Westminster. She added that there’s a risk of postponing something forever, sounds familiar I say.

      Even those involved in the Catalan indy movement know that Sturgeon is well behind the curve on Scottish independence. I suppose that’s what you get when you have a FM that’s gutless and spineless, and is quite content to govern inside this god awful union.

    85. Republicofscotland says:

      Robert Louis @7.34am.

      Robert we should have known that Holyrood was going to be turned into some sort of inaccessible government building, including the surrounding grounds, when those camping nearby several years back until independence was achieved, were forcibly removed by our politicians via the courts.

    86. Grouser says:

      Welcome back Craig, unbowed by the experience you never should have been put through. As you say, you haven’t missed any progress made by the SNP towards Independence since they haven’t made any since 2014.
      I’ve sent a protest to Anas Sarwar and the four Labour MSPs over his performance in the Scottish Parliament. I don’t know why he has a spite at the Greater Glasgow Health but he undoubtedly has. They leave a lot to be desired as a management structure but Sarwar is doing a lot of damage by his almost unhinged rants in Holyrood. By implication he is denigrating the first rate performance of the Scottish National Health Service.
      People undergoing or about to undergo treatment at the Southern General are being frightened at a time when they are already vulnerable. Unforgivable. I’ve recently had first hand experience of the Southern and I really cannot praise the staff and the facilities enough.
      So enough ranting and raving in this dangerous, destructive way. If you have a grievance take it up with the people concerned like an adult, not like some vengeful half wit.

    87. Fionan says:

      Craig’s speech was great, and I hope he takes this all the way to European Court of Human Rights and that sturgeon & co are finally exposed fully and dealt with accordingly.

      I agree with Breeks that the S30 approach must and should be abandoned as it will be fixed by sturgeon and her WM cronies like Priti Patel and Johnson.

      For those who are trying to dismiss Storm Arwen as no more than happens occasionally, maybe they should try travelling throughout Aberdeenshire to the communities still without power and no end in sight yet, through all the roads that are still blocked with fallen trees, look at the houses damaged by falling trees, have a look at the hectares after hectares of forested hillside which have been completely flattened.

      At 65 years old,(and disabled) having lived all my life in Scottish rural communities (apart from a year in France)and most of these years in Grampian, I have never in my life seen such utter incredible devastation, and nor has anyone I have spoken to in the area. Speak to the communities which were without water for almost a week, as well as without food, heating, lighting etc, and speak to the council about their plans to dispose of the tons and tons of rotted foods from freezers and fridges throughout the area – they are still making emergency plans on how to dispose of all this and we are currently advised to put these rotted foods in the landfill bins when our green food recycling bins are full. All gas canisters, torch batteries, candles and gas cylinders for over 50 miles around have been sold out and there have been few supplies getting in. There are still power saws humming away in every direction as unsafe and fallen trees are removed. I am right now suffering yet another power cut after having had to wait till 11.30pm Wednesday night for it to be restored and many local areas are still getting power cuts of several hours. Add to that the areas and roads and drains which were flooded both with the storm and from the rapid snow melt at the start of the week and you begin to understand the sheer scale of the devastation this storm created. And to my knowledge, Sturgeon hasn’t lifted a finger to help our Aberdeenshire communities, nor have the media reported fully on the scale of the damage and devastation.

      I myself was caught in the storm on Friday night after having to take a very sick old dog in pain to be pts. On the way home I twice had to stop for fallen trees being cleared off the road, and also had to drive through floods on the roads. I could see on the skyline, huge green flashes of light, presumably from electricity cables being snapped or taken down. Then I came across a car sitting on top of a fallen tree with more trees across the road beyond it. The driver had abandoned the car. I turned my car, with trees and branches still falling, to go back and round a back road, but in that few minutes, more trees had fallen behind me and I was trapped. I had to abandon my car, and in darkness, driving sleet and gales I had to climb over the many old and very large trees including beech and pine, finding a way through their branches while trees were falling all around me. There was no light to see by and no houses near by with lights as the power was off by this time and there was no phone signal as the masts were down. The road was like a freezing river. I feel lucky to have survived that 2 mile walk home through falling trees. So please don’t do the medias’ silencing job for them by trying to gaslight and belittle this storm – it was truly horrific and the consequences, including for wildlife like the endangered species -red squirrels and hedgehogs and others, will be with us for years to come.

    88. Sarissa says:

      off topic, devolution in a nutshell:

    89. Hatuey says:

      Trouser: “By implication he is denigrating the first rate performance of the Scottish National Health Service.”

      First rate? In my experience, the first response of the health service when covid hit last year was a sign on the doctor’s surgery door telling me to fuck off and die… to be clear, they didn’t use that exact phraseology but the message was clear enough and basically the same. Actually, little has changed since.

      Meanwhile, as all that was going on, our nurses were left to deal with the deadly disease wearing things like bin bags and recycled or homemade face masks instead of real PPE. They were supposed to be prepared for this sort of thing.

      The costs are first rate, though, I’ll give you that. Over a third of the taxes we pay go towards this charade. The service itself has huge holes of inconsistency and mediocrity all over it. For the average user, there’s a lot of luck involved — that’s as diplomatic as I’m prepared to be.

      The tragedy, as always, is that the people near the base of the triangle, the ones who do all the work and get the lowest pay rates, nurses, ambulance drivers, etc., are the ones that are left to face the problems and failed users.

      I love the way Sarwar is pressing these issues. Anyone that defends the SNP on this is putting politics before public health.

    90. robertknight says:

      Sturgeon appears to look more towards Quebec than Catalonia when it comes to Scotland’s future. Lose a referendum or two every now and again and in the meantime, normal service continues uninterrupted.

      Having two troughs which the SNP snout can get into – Westminster AND Holyrood – is surely a “victory” in her eyes, and those of Hubby. Why on earth would she risk that?

      So long as the Wokies and myopic SNP members/supporters keep voting for the donkeys sporting black and yellow rosettes, what’s not to like?

      Ever get the feeling you’ve been cheated?

    91. wull says:

      Thank you very much , Fionan @ 12.07 pm, for sharing the devastating truth about the storm. We all needed to hear that. I certainly did. Wishing you all the best …

    92. Grouser says:

      Hatuey: I am sorry your experience of the Scottish National Health Service has been so bad. I can only speak of my own experience with it.
      My doctor kept up a good service throughout the pandemic.
      I had to phone 111 because of an emergency with my husband; they sent out an out of hours doctor who dealt with the problem; my husband got a phone call from the surgery asking him to come in next day and as a result of good practice by the young doctor a very serious condition was picked up, purely as a result of the thorough investigation.
      He was in hospital (the Southern, as I still call it)where he was treated very well. He now has to go for an operation and again, the pre-op care has been first class and I am hoping this continues.
      The lack of PPE was down to the Westminster government who ignored advice on coping with a pandemic, leaving the whole country short of PPE.
      I wil not defend the SNP over anything; certainly not Humza Yousaf or Nicola Sturgeon.
      I live in a very working class area and we are in no way privileged. However, my experience has been as above.
      I still contend that Sarwar is going about this the wrong way. He has no right to exploit grieving parents and partners and he has no right to imply that the Southern is anything other than effective in the treatment it provides and a fit place for sick people to receive first class, safe treatment.
      He obviously has a problem with the SNP just because they support Independence; he obviously has a problem with the GGCHB. He should take this up with them without spreading fear and alarm to users of the facilities.
      The cost of the SNHS? Would you prefer my husband died because we cannot afford private health care? I don’t dispute that the hardest worked are the lowest paid. Gratitude does not pay any bills. They need to be paid a lot more.
      An Independent Scotland would have control over both the cost and the running of our great SNHS. So perhaps we should save our energy to work towards Independence.

    93. sarah says:

      @ fionan: as wull said.

    94. Hatuey says:

      Of course, there’s another very good reason to get rid of the dangerously hopeless Sturgeon — when she goes, the “once in a generation” argument goes with her.

      Like it or not, that has been a huge weapon for Unionists since 2014. And she did say it.

      I suppose we can’t rule out the possibility that she really meant it and in some contorted way she is demonstrating that she’s principled by not pursuing independence today.

      Either way, we should be glad to see the back of her.

    95. twathater says:

      @ Fionan 12.07pm as Wull says please be careful and look after yourself , I would like to say it is unbelievable that the MSM are NOT widely reporting the misery and damage that folk in Aberdeenshire are suffering and the inadequate and pathetic response from all sections of government and it appears from the energy companies
      BUT I am sad to say this apparent non urgent and lackadaisical approach appears to be the norm now , this storm although uncontrollable was forecast and yet it appears there was NO PREPARITY work organised to rescue the situation or prepare for its possible damage

      This strikes me as a similar situation to COVID , they run scenarios for preparedness of pandemics with all sorts of bluster and publicity to show people they are organised and ready then a couple of months later when the real thing happens they run about like headless chickens blundering about causing more damage than they will admit too

      SURELY preparations for a pandemic would have looked at the inherent dangers of moving elderly people from a hospital without a check for COVID into a care home situation where the elderly and infirm had greatly reduced immune systems and where many had previous medical conditions

      The ineptitude of the CLOWNS we have in HR and WM as politicians who represent us is now becoming more DANGEROUS AND DAMAGING to normal citizens , there is a GLARING INABILITY to prepare for future problems because they have no foresight or planning ability , and just like management in big companies they will not promote someone more intelligent than them because they show up their stupidity and become a threat to THEIR position

    96. Stoker says:

      @ Fionan on 3 December, 2021 at 12:07 pm

      Still, what’s to worry about, i see all those cut off for more than 48-hours are to get compensation. 😉 Don’t go booking those holidays to Barbados just yet though, it’s only £150. You’d have thought the least that could have been done was to scrap this winters bills for all those who’ve been cut off wouldn’t you? £150! LOL!

    97. Stoker says:

      Sarissa says on 3 December, 2021 at 1:55 pm
      “off topic, devolution in a nutshell:”

      Aye! Good one! Very apt!

    98. Ebok says:

      Fionan @ 12:07 pm

      I echo the above replies to your comment.
      I’m really sorry reading your distressing account of what it’s been like in the NE since last w/e: in a caring society, help and emergency funding would not only have been available, but rushed through with some urgency.

    99. Andy Ellis says:

      @Hatuey 5.08 pm

      I fully concur with the sentiment that Sturgeon should be politically defenestrated at the first available opportunity, but I think we should be careful about giving any credence to the “once in a generation” formulation, whether direct or indirect. It was always a deeply stupid thing to say for any nationalist politician to say, however much they caveated it.

      However, it wouldn’t matter whether Sturgeon or any other politico actually believed in the principle (or agreed how long a political generation actually is!), because the only people qualified to decide when, how often and under what circumstances we exercise our self determination are the sovereign Scottish people.

      How that self determination is exercised is ultimately a matter for us. At present the party of government in Scotland is firmly wedded to the “Gold Standard” S30 approved referendum route to independence, following the 2014 precedent. However, should circumstances change any nationalist worth their salt should be making it crystal clear to Westminster that any attempt to stymie #indyref2 or to place new conditions or barriers which are not approved by the Scottish people or their parliament is not legitimate.

      This is where the gradualists in the SNP have failed for the past 7 years. The threat should be specific and time limited: honour the 2014 precedent or we switch to Plan B. It’s been obvious for some time of course that the SNP had no appetite for the fight, because the refused to put the matter of whether Holyrood was able to hold a referendum without a S30 order beyond legal doubt, and actively worked against Martin Keatings case which aimed to force their hand. As you point out their refusal to even discuss Plan B demonstrates that they are far too comfortable with the cosy devolutionary settlement and the sinecures it brings.

      Only Alba and a few forlorn rebel voices within the SNP are pushing the case for Plan B and the use of plebiscitary elections. It’s important that they and we force the pace on the issue. If that doesn’t happen, we may find ourselves in the situation where 2039 comes and we still haven’t had #indyref2, never mind achieved independence.

      Sturgeon’s departure – however welcome – won’t change anything if the SNP remains wedded to their current strategy and we can’t afford to bet the farm on the mainstream SNP membership reclaiming the party any time soon.

    100. Hatuey says:

      Hardly surprising that I agree with all of that, Andy, since we are both apparently “plants”. I’m not certain but I don’t think they mean the botanical variety…

      In real life when Unionist go down the “neverendum” road with me, I counter by saying I’d be happy to have a referendum every 4 or 5 years, which I would, and providing people vote for it, I don’t see how anyone could object.

      The best argument for “Scotland is a colony” stems from their refusal to allow us to make decisions like that for ourselves. Holyrood serves the role Breeks described earlier, much as Fort George did in earlier years, as long as we aren’t allowed to discuss and vote on our future there.

      You can have your freedom, as long as you don’t try and use it to escape…

      I had a look at comments today on various news websites like The Herald, and it struck me that the SNP is actually under siege right now. 99% of comments are slating them. It’s hard to see how it can continue like this.

      We used to defend them in the face of these criticisms, when we thought they were on our side. We used to protect them. They don’t have that today and it’s making a huge difference.

      All they have now to protect them is a “bodyguard of lies” (to borrow one of Churchill’s lines).

    101. Alf Baird says:

      Republicofscotland @ 10:49 am

      “Economist and indy activist Elisenda Paluzie, said that Sturgeon could not expect to take Scotland out of the union without some sort of political conflict from Westminster. She added that there’s a risk of postponing something forever, sounds familiar I say.”

      And there is considerable danger in postponement and delay. Its a truism that if colonialism is not broken, the colonised nation itself will perish. We already have ‘a rusted (Scots) tongue and a moribund culture’, a consequence of three centuries and more of Anglicisation and cultural domination. We are left with only ‘the dregs of culture’; with colonialism the culture of the people is withering away and the nation with it, which is the objective of colonialism – ‘to make the territory not appear foreign to the colonizer’s eye’.

      And, as the census tells us, Scots are being replaced at a rapid pace, which represents a further leakage of sovereignty every day, and that will continue so long as we have no control over Scotland’s borders, which is one of the most important responsibilities of any sovereignty nation and people.

    102. Fionan says:

      Thank you for kind replies to my post re Storm Arwen.

      Stoker, many people are saying they wont take the SSE (recently taken over by chinese company Ovo) compensation, due to the massive price rise which is apparently to go ahead around 1st April – yes a real April Fools joke on us Scots, because they will just recoup the ‘compensation’ costs in even higher price rises than predicted.

      The compensation which has been set by Ofgen, is apparently £70 for the first 48 hours of no power, then £70 per each 12 hours after that, capped at £700. But, SSE are giving out conflicting and confusing messages, saying at one time that people dont need to apply, it will go out automatically once all supplies have been re-connected, but then saying in the next breath that we need to apply, and in the next breath still, that we need receipts of hotels and restaurants where we have stayed and eaten during the power cuts – completely disregarding the fact that these businesses were also without power, phones and water in some cases, and in any case the roads to get to them were blocked by fallen trees and flooding. One of the scariest aspects of the storm was the complete shutdown of all means of communication and information. But SSE kindly handed out flasks of hot water on tuesday, so we are all a flask better off 🙂 and that cuppa was one of the best ever!

      Apparently Aberdeenshire council had to request urgent army assistance by wednesday to help reach remote vulnerable people, mostly out by Balmoral/Braemar, where the SSE also set up emergency generators. There were food stations set up around tuesday in a few places by community councils, community centres and volunteers, and shower facilities were made available in the various community centres – but very many people had no access to any such information even if they could reach the centres. Now gales are forecast for the coming week with so many damaged, weakened trees still to be removed from roadsides and around houses.

    103. Brian Doonthetoon says:

      Hud a bra’ night out in The Woodlands Hotel, at the Dundee Alba St Andrew’s Day celebration tonight.

      Had a blether with Brian Topping from Fraserburgh, having a covid-delayed break in Dundee with his wife. Met up with a number of Team Yes Bus members and had a very illuminating blether with Stevie from the Crossgate Centre. When the SNP $h!† hits the fan, via the ECHR, we’d better all have brollies.
      And to cap it all, I won a bottle of Cairn O’ Mohr raspberry wine (13.3%) in the raffle.

      A fine night!

    104. Marco McGinty says:

      Good to see Craig freed from his false imprisonment, and hopefully back to his blogging best very soon.

    105. Breeks says:

      It does seem to me that “Lady” Dorian seems part of an interest group which wants to push reckless ideas hard, presumably because under this current administration, there seems a better than average chance of getting reckless and insane ideas pushed through without any rigorous scrutiny.

      I’m not really genned up on the games lawyers play, and frankly I’m cynical and broadly disappointed with Scotland’s legal fraternity on the Constitutional front, but for me, there has always been a plainly obvious systemic parallel between doing away with jury trials, and privatizing public owned Institutions.

      When you deliberately under-fund the Institution, starve it of investment, it naturally begins to struggle, and fails to cope with it’s obligations. This ostensibly dysfunctional service thus attracts political criticism, but in truth, this poor performance is a smokescreen behind which private interests jockey for the best positions to exploit the carving up of civic resource which formerly belonged to the people.

      Scotland’s people deserve justice, and justice all the time. Justice for all should be norm. This is a component of a civilised society. If Scotland’s Legal community cannot be relied upon to deliver that justice, then it is they who are failing in their obligation.

      Perhaps Scotland’s Legal Society needs rebalanced. It seems bloated and top heavy with an overpaid and ineffective management, while failing to deliver a cost effective and timely delivery of justice.

      It seems quite obvious that Scotland should instead be paying less money for fewer chiefs, and be paying for a lot more Indians who can plough through a lot more of the backlog without compromising people’s legal protection and rights to trial by jury.

      We should not reward the faulty management of this profession which has allowed itself to become so top heavy with a relaxation of their fundamental duties.

      If you cannot as a profession safeguard the delivery of justice, then as a profession, you’re not worth anything at all.

    106. Andy Ellis says:

      @Alf Baird 8.29 pm

      “And, as the census tells us, Scots are being replaced at a rapid pace, which represents a further leakage of sovereignty every day..”

      The last census from 2011 tells us what happened in the decade up to then. We’ll have to wait for the results of the next (delayed) census in 2022 to see whether the figures back up your claim that “native” Scots are being replaced, and what impact that might have on voting intentions. The big rise in the decade up to the 2011 was in EU and “rest of the world” immigrants, not English immigrants. The EU numbers in the decade since the last census will doubtless have been impacted by brexit.

      A few points to ponder however:

      1) Isn’t it pretty hard to extrapolate from the gross figures in the census to actual voting intentions “on the ground” of those who have immigrated to Scotland and stayed? We already know that there is very little in the way of polling evidence, but assuming that “X” thousand people from the rest of the UK come to Scotland every year, how do we know what proportion of them stay a few years then move elsewhere / back to England every year? Many of course will become permanent residents, but I wonder what proportion come to support an independent Scotland? What about their (Scots born) children, many of whom will presumably self identify as Scottish?

      2) The 2011 census showed 83% of Scots were native born. The decrease from 2001 census (87%) was attributable to EU and rest of the world immigration, not English, Welsh and NI immigration. If you take a view that inward migration is an existential threat to Scottish independence then I doubt anything is going to convince you otherwise, but if all the immigration over the past few decades were such a threat, why has pro-independence sentiment increased in the same time? Was it all from native born Scots? People keep quoting one poll that found “rest of UK” voters split 70/30 against independence in 2014, but how accurate is that..? Does it still hold even if it was accurate?

      Wouldn’t we be able to see an impact in things like the Social Attitudes Survey over the same timescale? We keep hearing that most Scots self identify as Scottish rather than British, so if we’re being flooded or diluted, that would logically be decreasing wouldn’t it? Or does it just mean that for too many Scots, being Scottish is just like being from Yorkshire or Kent but with a more colourful history?

      What about the fact that pro-independence sentiment in younger age groups is overwhelmingly pro-independence in comparison with other age groups?

      The supposed (asserted?) “dilution” of native born by people from elsewhere (in our case presumably the nativists concern is chiefly with “unionist” inclined people from England/Wales/NI more than the EU and the rest of the world immigrants) is hardly unique to Scotland in recent years/decades.

      I don’t think we can make any direct correlation that immigration = leakage of sovereignty. Much like the entire nativist prospectus I still think it’s largely a confection to excuse lack of political will and courage on the part of the overwhelming majority of the Scots population which remains native born.

      We’re not colonised, or hoodwinked, we’re just “frit” and not convinced of that the cost benefit analysis of unionism versus independence favours independence (yet?).

      Conjuring the ghost of the Scots nation itself perishing due to non-native immigrants sounds pretty hysterical to most ordinary Scots. Worse still it looks and feels pretty UKIP-y. Note that I’m not saying that all the fans of nativism out there are xenophobic bigots, but as we saw (and continue to see) in England, once you let the ethnic nationalist genie out of the bottle, it’s pretty hard to put back in.

    107. Hatuey says:

      Immigration can’t be judged in isolation of wider conditions and issues. Scotland right now isn’t an independent country and so the impact of immigration (and possibly the purpose of it) is not the same as it would be in a normal country where it would be almost entirely positive.

      We have every right to assume immigration skews the politics of independence, whether we are talking about internal UK migration flows or international migration.

      We can easily imagine and understand that a typical international immigrant who settles in Scotland would be disposed to keep his options open as far as moving to other parts of the UK is concerned, and logically it follows that he would be disposed to oppose independence since it would potentially impede his ability to to move elsewhere.

      We can further imagine such an international immigrant being disposed differently in an independent Scotland.

      If that’s true of international immigrants to Scotland, it’s even more true of internal Immigrants from other parts of the UK who the door is completely open to. It’s difficult to imagine many of them wishing to close the door and put up barriers to the very freedoms that allowed them to so easily come and take advantage of opportunities here in the first place.

      Statistics on how various demographics voted in 2014 confirm all that. Immigrants generally are against independence, regardless of whether they are from the rest of the UK or international in origin. The data doesn’t lie.

      Thus, it logically follows that immigration flows as they exist today are continually undermining the prospects for securing independence in any future vote. The best and least controversial solution to this is to change the terms of the franchise.

    108. John Main says:

      Andy Ellis writes:

      “I don’t think we can make any direct correlation that immigration = leakage of sovereignty”

      TBH, it no longer winds me up that anybody can make a statement so directly at odds with 10,000 historical precedents, not to mention the personal, lived experience of everybody from the smartest and richest to the densest and most disinterested.

      But it does interest me why anybody chooses to persist with such “moon howling”, to borrow from Andy’s own lexicon.

      I guess we will wait a long time to discover just what it is that the pedlars of such Grade 1 tripe are seeking to construct here. It certainly isn’t a humane, prosperous, law-abiding, healthy, comfortable, happy homeland for the Scots.

    109. John Main says:


      Not for the first time, your ramblings are all over the place.

      If you wish to make a nonsensical statement such as “immigration … would be almost entirely positive”, don’t then follow it up with paragraphs pointing out negative after negative.

      BTW, if there really are opportunities here for immigrants to take advantage of, I would prefer the Scots to be given those opportunities first. Wouldn’t you?

      Come back and tell me how great immigration is when we all have warm, comfortable houses, paid employment, prompt, efficient health care, good educational provision, safe communities, etc. etc.

      Cos right now, when I look around me, I see plenty of incomers with most of these things, and plenty of Scots with none of them.

    110. Andy Ellis says:

      @John Main 2.45 pm

      Historical precedents like what John? Since there are 10,000 according to you, doubtless you can show your working? Personal lived experience of what….being a xenophobic, regressive, ethnic nationalist as opposed to a pro multi cultural, progressive, civic nationalist?

      I know which I’d rather be, and what the better nation we should all be aspiring to ought to look like. If you really think the current UK or a future independent Scotland isn’t or won’t be a “humane, prosperous, law-abiding, healthy, comfortable, happy homeland” because *immigrants* it says a lot about you, none of it good.

    111. Hatuey says:

      Try and keep up, daft chap. Read the first paragraph.

      The implications, dynamics, and consequences are simply very different and I’d say much more negative for a country that isn’t independent. It’s hard to see how we’d capitalise on the economic benefits when we don’t have anything like full control of things like investment and development.

      Right now, it’s overwhelmingly all quite negative; close to 100% negative in political terms.

      With independence the political negatives disappear and the role of immigration becomes overwhelmingly positive, unless your primary concern is making us all speak “Broons”.

    112. Andy Ellis says:

      @Hatuey 2.34 pm

      I agree that it is certainly possible that immigration in certain circumstances might skew the politics of independence. There is certainly some evidence – though in truth not that much apart from a few polls – to suggest that in 2014 the fact that non native born Scots voted 70/30 against independence may have been enough to override a narrow Yes vote from native born Scots.

      Of course, it’s pretty hard to prove that outcome, because we also don’t know what the impact of trying to limit the electoral franchise to exclude significant numbers of non-native born voters would have been.

      There’s no guarantee that the terms of #indyref1 would have been the same if that’s what Salmond had tried to negotiate with Cameron in 2012. Nor can we know what the impact would have been on other voters – particularly “soft Yes” voters – if the pro-independence campaign had been seen as promoting ethnic nationalism not civic nationalism in 2012-14. It’s surely hard to see argue that the campaign would have been the same on that basis?

      The key to securing a majority for independence is convincing enough of the overwhelming majority of Scots who are native born to grow a pair. The Scottish electorate in the December 2020 GE was 4,208,923. The last census put native born Scots at 83% of the population.

      Even if that figure has decreased by the time the 2022 census figures come in, the way to offset any potential for perceived undue influence from non-native born voters is to ensure that even if immigrants vote heavily against independence, it won’t matter in the general scheme of things because any self identifying people with any self respect ought to be capable – indeed clamorous for – the benefits of statehood.

      If that isn’t the case, we shouldn’t be blaming the immigrants or throwing the civic nationalist baby out with the bath water, we should be recognising that we just don’t want it enough and haven’t made a strong enough case. The narrative that we are colonised, or hoodwinked by unionist media, or doon hauden by 300 years of cultural imperialism is a cop out. Plenty of other peoples have achieved independence facing much higher hurdles and with few of our advantages. We’re not still part of the UK because “we wuz robbed”, but because we revere the chains that bind us too much to take our independence rather than ask for it.

    113. Alf Baird says:

      John Main @ 3:02 pm

      “Cos right now, when I look around me, I see plenty of incomers with most of these things, and plenty of Scots with none of them.”

      That is one excellent definition of a colony, John.

    114. John Main says:

      Andy Ellis & Hatuey

      Two far-sighted sages, or two cheeks of the same arse?

      I get it. I really do. You are not going to abandon the virtue-signalling flights of fancy that you have convinced yourselves defines the moral high ground. Even if it costs Scotland that objective that is supposed to be the entire point of this site, her independence.

      But the world has moved on from 2014. Even your beloved EU is building walls and unrolling the barbed wire. Even the politicians and careerists who run your imaginary European utopia are adopting the policies of authoritarianism to sideline the people you would claim they serve.

      The pursuit of Scottish Independence is pointless if it will not further the prospects and prosperity of ordinary Scots. Telling Scots that Indy can only work if we get outsiders to seize the opportunities thus offered is a sure-fire way of maintaining the majority for No.

      I would say “go figure” but I doubt that you can. You have too much emotion and ego invested in your fallacies to be able to abandon your illusions.

    115. Dan says:

      It’s far too easy to fall into the trap of polarising the issue of immigration when conversing on the internet. The written word and lack of prolonged local lived experiences inevitably result in compromised conversations where folk argue their case from a different contextual viewpoint.
      Correct me if wrong but Andy has recently returned to Scotland (Edinburgh) from down south.
      Auld Reekie is a city. Don’t know how much he gets out and aboot in amongst the denizens of that locale, especially with the restrictions of the virus playing its part. But even if he is 24 / 7 interacting with the Edinburgh public, the matters discussed have relatively little in common with what is going on in rural areas.
      From years of personal experience, many EU immigrants retain their ability to move back to their original homeland should they desire. Many immigrants (like many indigenous Scots) haven’t got the faintest idea of Scotland’s true history, let alone the complex politics and electoral processes that result from being in the UK Union.

      Are the majority of Scots actually put off voting for SELF determination because they see so many “foreigners” coming here and climbing into positions of influence and power and then telling us what policies we need to adopt?
      All that “International Best Practice” policy bollox that we Scots as a nation had zero input in determining.

    116. Hatuey says:

      The problem with this debate is that people are jumping to one extreme or another and creating conflict and disagreement where there needn’t be any. The sensible majority view is in the middle.

      It isn’t ethnic nationalism to want to change the franchise, Andy. And, on the other extreme, let me assure you that the majority of Scottish people don’t want independence for reasons of culture and language — those sort of arguments have no place in this country and are at times indistinguishable from the most vile forms of nationalism.

      That said, Andy’s optimistic view that the steady weakening of the pro-indy vote by immigrants can readily be overcome (by doing more to win the argument, etc.) is fanciful and wilfully ignorant of the basic arithmetic which you can find here;

      Simply put, it might have been possible to win that argument a decade or so ago, Andy, but since then the anti-indy forces have won many thousands of votes without making any argument at all, simply because of continuing immigration. They don’t need to do a thing except stall us and at some point, I’d say in the next 10 years, it essentially becomes impossible for us to win a referendum.

      It’s complicated though and it would help if everybody stopped pretending otherwise and stopped framing this in ideological terms.

    117. Lollysmum says:

      Are you bored yet Stuart?????

    118. Alf Baird says:

      Hatuey @ 5:51 pm

      “Scottish people don’t want independence for reasons of culture and language”

      You misunderstand the importance of culture and language, which is what gives a people their national consciousness, without which there can be no desire for the national independence of a people.

      This is a quote from Grouse Beater’s new book, with Gareth discussing his cousin, the journalist Iain Christie from Edinburgh, who established a new national broadcasting service in Mozambique after the country’s independence from the Portuguese colonisers:

      “a lot of the station’s output was about ridding the populace of a colonial mentality, giving them confidence in their own language and culture.”

      Independence is about ridding a people of a colonial mentality, which has everything to do with their culture and language, and the culture and language which is being imposed on them.

    119. Andy Ellis says:

      @Hatuey 5.51 pm

      You’re going to need to show your workings tho’ bud, because that link you provided doesn’t prove a thing. The basic arithmetic requires a knowledge of lots of factors which are not represented in those figures, e.g. what is the change in relative proportions / % between native born Scots, immigrants from rest of UK, immigrants from EU and immigrants from rest of the world. Then you’ve got to figure out how they’re likely to vote and what might impact on that and change their preference.

      The basic maths tho’ isn’t going to change that much, and certainly not by enough to justify assertions that independence will become functionally impossible simply as a result of supposed “dilution” of native born Scots by immigrants.

      People made arguments similar to those used by current nativists about being “swamped” by Irish immigration to Scotland in the 19th and early 20th centuries. The census figures for Irish born people in Scotland in 1851 was 7.2 %, in 1861 6.7% and by 1931 it was 2.6%. By the 2001 census less than 1% identified as Irish when it was listed for the first time as an ethnic group.

      It may not invariably be ethnic nationalism, xenophobia or bigotry to want to change the franchise in all cases, but you’re surely not denying that it is for some? For others it may be ideological (and lets face it, are mainstream independence supporters really that comfortable lining up shoulder to shoulder with those punting it for those reasons….? Right wing, socially conservative, often anti-muslim, UKIP types…?), others probably just aren’t educated enough and / or buy in to the same narrative that drove brexit.

      It is a complicated area as you say. Sadly, you’ve already decided that simplistic assertions with no evidence about independence becoming functionally impossible by dilution due to immigrants is true.

      So much for complexity!

    120. Andy Ellis says:

      @John Main 5.11 pm

      I don’t support EU membership though John, which kind of spoils much of your rant I realise. However, the majority of Scots still do, so it’s them you’ve got to convince.

      The pursuit of Scottish independence is pointless if it leads t the kind of dystopia envisaged by the blood and soil types in here. I’m not: “Telling Scots that Indy can only work if we get outsiders to seize the opportunities thus offered..”, I’m saying that we can’t and shouldn’t disenfranchise a section of New Scots. Stu Campbell’s original objections still apply. Not one of the nativist claque have satisfactorily rebutted them, yet they just love using this place as a forum to fluff their regressive nativism. They don’t think they can win the argument, so they want to take their ball home.

      Abandoning civic nationalism will be the death of the movement: it’s not my illusion, or virtue-signalling flights of fancy that I’ve convinced myself defines the moral high ground. Nativists are just as likely to cost us independence as British nationalists.

    121. Tannadice Boy says:

      Back from the surreal World of Christmas shopping. Devoid of Colonialism for a short period. A welcomed respite. Colonialism, ah well how about the deterioration of Scottish protection of children?. First it was named person (I spent a lot of money stopping that). Now we have moved on to lack of parental consent for sexualised questions of children. God bless all authorities who blocked it. It comes from the top. Sturgeon take responsibility. The pervy, paedo Holyrood is not what we voted for.

    122. Ian Brotherhood says:

      Hi all,

      Just popped in to post a link to reviews of Robert F. Kennedy Jnr’s book, ‘The Real Anthony Fauci…’

      Of the 1,460 ratings recorded so far, 95% award the book 5 stars.


    123. Andy Ellis says:

      @Tannadice Boy 8.11 pm

      Fear not, Alf et al are at hand to point out Scotland/Mozambique = same/same, much as the previous refrain was Scotland/New Caledonia = same/same.

      That’s a definite route to indy right there, oh yes….might take a few decades like, but better to quietly kill off civic nationalism and embrace our colonial status. That’s bound to work, right…? Good grief.

      Anyhoo: glad you survived Xmas shopping. We got out to see a gig at the Queen’s Hall last night: first real night out in a long while and just what was needed after a hard few months!

    124. Tannadice Boy says:

      @Andy Ellis 8:47pm
      Yes that’s the same Alf et al that have never held a weapon or been on a combat service situation. I am glad the Army are helping in rural Aberdeenshire. The hardship of the people there needs urgent address. Meanwhile it’s virtual signalling and secretive surveys of children. Sums up the priorities of the SG. The anal sexual history of bairns or actually doing something useful for once.

    125. Ruby says:

      Hatuey says:
      4 December, 2021 at 5:51 pm
      The problem with this debate is


      The problem with this debate is that so few people are interested!

      It’s just the same couple of people regurgitating the same stuff over and over and over again.

      It all gets very stagnant!

    126. Ruby says:

      Tannadice Boy says:
      4 December, 2021 at 9:07 pm
      @Andy Ellis 8:47pm
      Yes that’s the same Alf et al that have never held a weapon or been on a combat service situation.


      What does that have to do with anything?

    127. Tannadice Boy says:

      @Ruby 9:41pm
      Read Fanon punted by Alf et al. Based on the war of Algerian Independence. A discredited publication. No serious academic promotes this is a solution. Yes I have been on active service so I am entitled to talk about this. Although I would rather talk about the dilution of Scottish children’s rights.

    128. Ruby says:

      Tannadice Boy says:
      Although I would rather talk about the dilution of Scottish children’s rights.

      What’s stopping you?

    129. Tannadice Boy says:

      @Ruby 10:02pm
      Read my previous comments. Lots of them read recently 9:07pm. In addition Scottish women voted for Sturgeon. On the back of 50 percent representation on public bodies. Now women are greeting to men to stop it. Mental saturation of men one poster said. Actually we are doing great we told you. You voted..

    130. Dorothy Devine says:

      Ian B , just a wee wave Hello – I wouldn’t hang around here the Windbag of Wings are working hard to make it unreadable, wee Ruby is right!

    131. Ruby says:

      Tannadice Boy says:
      Now women are greeting to men to stop it. Mental saturation of men one poster said. Actually we are doing great we told you. You voted..


      You’ve lost me!

      What is it women are greeting to men to stop?

    132. Dan says:

      One for the simple minds out there.

      All the things she / her said.

      We often have to act before the data is telling us there is a problem

      Aye, that’s covid related, but mind that we aw hud tae wait tae see whit the plainly obvious negative implications of yon material change in circumstance of the clusterfuck of “Brexit” were.
      Duly noting that when that data did become available heehaw was actually acted on…

    133. Grouse Beater says:

      To Liar Tannadice, English Ellis, and anybody else with their flies open taking selfies at waist level, happily lying through their alimentary orifice, screwing up honest discussion, everybody who is anybody is ‘discredited’ except them, of course.

      Wouldn’t do for them to acknowledge they are at the bottom of the pile as far as intellectual acuity is concerned. Better King of the Jerks than ignored jerk-off.

    134. Tannadice Boy says:

      @Dorothy Devine 10:18pm
      Unreadable not to me. Avoiding the protection of Scottish children’s rights
      Where have you been the last few days?. What do you know about that?. Read Wings and learn.

    135. Ian Brotherhood says:

      @Dorothy (10.18) –


      Hope you are well there.

      I’ve been keeping in touch with the ‘auld’ Wingers by other means. Contacts are strong and will survive the demise of this place. It’ll be a sad day when the curtain does come down, but a lot of good stuff has come from it.

      In the meantime, it’s still entertaining to see certain characters swaggering around. They don’t seem to realise that the party’s over and they’re having a willy-waving contest in an empty pub. All a bit tragic, aye, but so long as they’re allowed to think they’ve ‘won’ something then they can be left alone to amuse one another – means they less likely to annoy others elsewhere.

      Anyway, I hope “we shall meet (again) in the place where there is no darkness”.

      Could well be Dow’s?!?

      Have a braw Christmas and 2022.



    136. Tannadice Boy says:

      @Grouse Beater 10:31 pm
      That’s your worse post. However I forgive you. I try not to criticise Independence supporters. Evidence please of I am a liar.

    137. Tannadice Boy says:

      @Grouse Beater 10:31pm
      You didn’t engage with me when I met you, you didn’t engage me with me on twitter you were too tired I respected that because that’s what it means to be Independence supporter. We are all dying some of us can deal with that. I delivered Christmas presents today to my 90 year old Dad. Multiple cancers but no complaints. You called me a liar and I am not prepared to let that go irrespective of your medical condition. I want an immediate retraction or I will be on your doorstep asking for am explanation.

    138. Hatuey says:

      Andy, you’re right, it would require a lot of work on the numbers involved. I did say it was complicated.

      If you look at ONS data on “Net migration to Scotland from overseas”, though, in some years it is over 20 thousand per year. Over ten years thats around potentially 200 thousand voters, 70% of which might be expected to be opposed to independence. That’s 140 thousand “no” votes handed to Unionists on a plate for nothing.

      That’s significant but we aren’t finished. Net migration from the rest of the UK is typically of the order of 10 thousand per annum. From memory, the survey research suggested around 80% of those were opposed to independence… another 80 thousand votes gifted to unionists over ten years.

      Of course, we could go further and paint a much bleaker picture. Net migration is calculated by deducting emigration from immigration totals, and so we are not only neglecting to factor in the loss of Scots born emigrants who are more likely statistically to support independence, we are in essence factoring them in in a way that downplays the seriousness and scale of the problem.

      On the basis of all that, I think it would be very conservative to suggest that unionists are effectively winning around a quarter of a million votes per decade, free of charge, simply because of trends in migration and the terms of the franchise.

      From memory, only about 3.5 million people voted in 2014. Why on earth would you want to disadvantage yourself by keeping the franchise and gifting unionists a quarter of a million votes for free?

      Nobody can accuse me of being anti-immigration when just last week a devoted about 10 million words to explaining the economic benefits of immigration. And please believe me, nobody cares less about Scottish culture (whatever the fuck that is) and speaking “broons” than I do.

      There’s no contradiction here either. Immigration clearly plays a very different part in a country that is hamstrung, such as we are, as compared to the almost entirely positive part it can play in a fully independent country that has levers over its economy.

    139. Grouse Beater says:

      “Evidence please of I am a liar. Tannadice 10,31pm

      Pig-ignorant scorching of intellectuals and well-informed contributors signifies a man who has no wish to learn a damn thing, a know-all who knows nothing, acting like a Nazi sympathiser burning the books of people he dislikes.

      We are sliding into fascism. Dunces like you are the problem.

    140. Ruby says:

      Hatuey says:

      Nobody can accuse me of being anti-immigration when just last week a devoted about 10 million words to explaining the economic benefits of immigration. And please believe me, nobody cares less about Scottish culture (whatever the fuck that is) and speaking “broons” than I do.

      I read your posts about immigration and decided you were completely bonkers.

      You are so pro-immigration you come across as anti-Scottish. Is there a particular culture that you care bout?

      What do you mean by speaking ‘broons’?

    141. Tannadice Boy says:

      @Grouse Beater 11:08pm
      OK be prepared to meet me in person. This time I will not accept your tired. Its a short trip for me. You may learn something about integrity.

    142. Ruby says:

      George Ferguson risks getting a visit from the cops for threatening behaviour.

    143. Hatuey says:

      Alf, it’s you that misunderstands the importance of language and culture, not me.

      I literally do not know one person in the real world who would say they supported independence because they were concerned about language and/or culture. If it’s even on a list of priorities, it’s near the bottom.

      Now I know you think all this is explained by internalised cultural racism and various other cringe-related factors, but even if that’s true, you can only work with what you’ve got in front of you.

      If you really care about that stuff, you should drop it and devote yourself to issues that are likely to win votes. It’s a distraction at best, and a vote loser at worst.

    144. Tannadice Boy says:

      @Ruby 11:17pm
      Simple answer don’t call people a liar. Problem solved. I voted for Independence and I thought I was on an Independence site. A free speech site. Grousebeater and Alf et al are promoting armed insurrection. I am not. No chance of Police Scotland investigating them?. Apparently not. Left wing academics are exempt from their unwarranted aspersions on other people. The state of Scotland.

    145. Hatuey says:

      Thanks for confirming that I’m pro-immigration to the point of being bonkers, ruby.

      As for speaking “broons”, I believe it’s formally called “scots” but to my mind it’s indistinguishable from slang.

    146. Ruby says:

      Hatuey says:
      4 December, 2021 at 11:34 pm
      Thanks for confirming that I’m pro-immigration to the point of being bonkers, ruby.

      As for speaking “broons”, I believe it’s formally called “scots” but to my mind it’s indistinguishable from slang.


      It’s not the language or culture of someone like Boris Johnson.

      Is his language and culture more to your liking?

      Anything wrong with slang?

    147. Ruby says:

      Tannadice Boy says:
      4 December, 2021 at 11:30 pm
      @Ruby 11:17pm
      Simple answer don’t call people a liar. Problem solved. I voted for Independence and I thought I was on an Independence site. A free speech site


      Keep up pal! There is no free speech in Scotland!

    148. Tannadice Boy says:

      @Ruby 11:43pm
      Goodness me. We are all going to die. Omicron whatever. This site has been taking over by who?. But you have convinced me it’s has been taken over. You made the basic mistake of contravening the first promise.

    149. Ruby says:

      Tannadice Boy says:
      4 December, 2021 at 11:56 pm
      @Ruby 11:43pm
      Goodness me. We are all going to die. Omicron whatever. This site has been taking over by who?. But you have convinced me it’s has been taken over. You made the basic mistake of contravening the first promise.


      You are totally pissed?

      Am I correct?

    150. Tannadice Boy says:

      @Ruby 12:00am
      Pissed no, pissed off totally. When I see what’s happening in Scotland what rationale thinking person wouldn’t be. But you can arrange my arrest. My defence will be I was arguing against armed insurrection. It will be an experience in jail. Here endeteth the Union if that happens but go for it Ruby.

    151. twathater says:

      WOW I remember the times when Stu Campbell binned people when they resorted to threats maybe his graciousness and patience is being taken for granted

    152. Hatuey says:

      The idea that we can will slang into being a language is basically woke extremism of the sort that is turning our kids into fearful, pampered, morons. It slots right into the doctrine that says don’t let the children compete in any way because not coming first might upset them…

      Fuck all that.

      Standards matter. Getting things right matters. Telling a kid it’s okay to think 2 + 2 = 5 because you don’t want to upset him is nuts. The same goes for grammar, spelling, sentence structure, etc.

      Slang is fine but it isn’t a language. Our language is English.

    153. Andy Ellis says:

      @Tannadice Boy 11pm

      You might as well give up on Grouse Beater I’m afraid. His descent in to such tirades, abuse and false allegations is well documented. It’s become apparent he has an ego a mile wide and graphene thin. His illness is of course no real excuse for his propensity to lash out at those with the temerity to disagree with him, even those like me with whom he formerly had quite cordial interactions.

      He did something similar to me a few months ago, making outlandish allegations in here that I’d been emailing Stu Campbell making allegations about him. All total fantasy of course for which he had zero evidence, but when asked to retract he refused. Ever since he’s decided I’m an infiltrator, like many of the other hard of thinking nativists in here. In what universe does he think it’s acceptable or a good look to label you a liar and call me “English Ellis”?

      Of course self referentially labelling yourself an intellectual as he does in his post @11.08 pm tells us all we need to know about Gareth’s pretensions and his lack of perspective, as does the use of block capitals. I suppose we should just be thankful it’s not all in capitals? 🙂

      His sad descent mirrors that of this site sadly.

    154. Andy Ellis says:

      @Hatuey 11.03 pm

      “From memory, only about 3.5 million people voted in 2014. Why on earth would you want to disadvantage yourself by keeping the franchise and gifting unionists a quarter of a million votes for free?”

      It’s true that it’s complex, so let’s look at the maths in detail then. Lets assume that the turnout in a future indyref (or plebiscitary election) will be the same as #indyref1 at 84.6%. From a referendum electorate of 4.2 million that gives you 3.56 million votes, requiring 1.78 million for a 50% + 1 majority.

      Almost 9% of the electorate are English born and around 1% from Wales & NI, so around 345,000 votes assuming the same turnout. 3% are EU nationals, so around 106,000.

      I think we can safely assume EU voters may now be more inclined to vote Yes than they were in 2014, so lets assume they vote 70/30 in favour of independence next time round. If you plug the figures above into a spreadsheet, even if “rest of UK voters” split 70/30 against independence, “native born” Scots can secure a Yes result with 51% of their vote (it would produce an overall total of 50.239% Yes and 49.707% No).

      The thing is the migration figures you quote aren’t static, and there’s no easy way to track how many of those who move to Scotland from the rest of the UK stay. Many may only be here for a year or two for work and may subsequently return or move to another part of the UK and then form part of the emigration total from Scotland.

      In the end, nothing has really changed since this matter was first raised. Changing the franchise is using a sledgehammer to crack a nut. It kills civic nationalism stone dead and has real political and probably electoral costs, all because a vocal and politically regressive minority in the movement have bought in to the facile colonisation narrative. If we’re honestly saying we can’t muster 51% of “true bloods” to support their own self determination, why should we expect New Scots to pull our chestnuts from the fire?

    155. Tannadice Boy says:

      @Andy Ellis 9:00 am
      You are correct. I shouldn’t allow myself to be baited. But it raises the question of why I debate on this blog. I am not your deep fried Mars bar wrapped in a haggis supper sort of Independence supporter. I believe in the betterment of the people and how that can be achieved. I have never been frightened or ran away from the school bully types. There is lots of that type in the Independence movement and some of them are in Government. I think we are further away from a decent Scotland than we have ever been.

    156. Ruby says:

      Tannadice Boy says:
      I am not your deep fried Mars bar wrapped in a haggis supper sort of Independence supporter


      Are you more the ‘haute cuisine’ type of independence supporter who doesn’t speak ‘broons’?

    157. Hatuey says:

      I disagree with just about all of that, Andy.

      Does changing the franchise definitely mean the end of civic nationalism?

      I didn’t see anyone attack the Tory government and call them ethnic nationalists on the basis of the Brexit franchise. You assume we’d get slated if we went down the same sort of road, but it’s hard to see how the MSM would be able to attack us without reinforcing the view here that it’s institutionally biased against independence — and it would take about 5 seconds to establish that.

    158. Ruby says:

      Hatuey says:
      5 December, 2021 at 2:43 am

      Slang is fine but it isn’t a language. Our language is English.


      Oh aye!

      Slang & lots of non English words are part of our language & culture.

      Just out of interest what is your ‘raison d’être’ for posting
      here on Wings?

      What is it you are trying to achieve?

    159. Ruby says:

      Andy Ellis has been regurgitating the same stuff for weeks maybe even months.

      What is the man trying to achieve?

    160. Ruby says:

      Hatuey says:

      Does changing the franchise definitely mean the end of civic nationalism?


      Enough about the ***** franchise.

      It’ll be our ‘colonial masters’ who decide on the franchise if they ever give us permission to hold a referendum!

      Any views on the school sex survey?

    161. Dan says:

      Andy Ellis says: at 9:21 am

      …Changing the franchise is using a sledgehammer to crack a nut. It kills civic nationalism stone dead and has real political and probably electoral costs…

      Tweaking the duration of residence eligibility criteria for a franchise in relation to a future IndyRef is hardly likely to kill civic nationalism stone dead.
      As Scotland is still in the Union at this time, all EU citizens residing in the UK already accept two tiers in their settled and pre-settled status. It’s almost as if they accept that 5 years means something…

      From your real world lived experiences in amongst Scottish communities, have you considered that the political and electoral costs you speak of may actually work the other way from what you perceive.
      Because much as it might pain you to learn, not all Scots hold such open and inclusive views as many are pretty dour and socially conservative.
      You’ve already stated that there are right wing and socially conservative folk in the Indy movement. If you actually want Scotland to return to being a self-governing nation then you have to accept there will be those that hold those views in the Scottish political spectrum, and as we need to gain a pro-indy majority in votes or seats, only a fool would not accept those folk into the fold.

    162. Andy Ellis says:

      @Hateuy 10.32 am

      Perhaps I’m just less sanguine than you about being on a par with the xenophobes and bigots who drove the brexit fiasco? We know what to expect from the Tory establishment and the British nationalist elites: civic nationalism as a project is supposed to provide a starkly different alternative. Nativism is simply descending to their level.

      Sadly it’s quite apparent that too many of those soiling the BTL comments in here are intensely relaxed about plumbing those depths.

      I don’t think you can realistically call Scottish nationalism civic nationalism any more if it is grounded on removing the franchise from a significant proportion of residents of Scotland on the basis of their birth place.

      I know all the nativists hate me bringing it up (it certainly seems to trigger them, which is part of the fun of doing it!), but the founder of this site has been quite open about his distaste for blood and soil nationalism. He decried “kilts-and-bagpipes-and-Gaelic cultural nationalism of the type that predated the SNP’s electoral success” and labelled franchise limitation as immoral and self defeating. Yet the sub Siol nan Gaidheal outriders all remain happy to come on here banging on about colonisation, and promoting their dystopian vision.

      The views of the MSM while interesting are largely irrelevant. They weren’t on our side last time but the pro-independence vote went up from the high 20’s % to 45% in 2 years. They won’t be on our side next time either: so what? It isn’t having an overwhelmingly hostile MSM that’s responsible for denying us independence, any more than it’s a product of our not all being able to talk like the Broons.

      The Yes vote has not moved appreciably since within a margin of error since 2014, despite brexit, BoJo as PM, the failed political assassination of Alex Salmond and prosecution and jailing of independence activists and the shameful mishandling of a global pandemic which resulted in the innecessary deaths of thousands of Scots.

      The colonisation schtick and the confident assertions that “we’re being swamped” are two cheeks of the same socially and politically conservative arse, however much the sad inadequates pushing them insist otherwise. It’s political and electoral poison.

    163. Ruby says:

      “While local authority messaging to parents has been that the survey is anonymous and is “for research purposes only”, the Herald on Sunday has seen privacy documents over the scheme that show that local authorities can act on behalf of children if any answers raise concerns.”

      Would any child under 16 claiming to have had sex not raise concerns.

      Is it not illegal for children under 16 to have sex?

      Anyone know the purpose of asking a child if they have had anal, oral, etc?

      Would it be to include these in sex lessons? Teach them how to do it?

      If it’s OK for example to ask a child if they have had oral sex would it in turn be OK for a child to ask a teacher if they have had oral sex.

      Oral sex is not a term widely used. We use slang terms which Hautey will be upset about!

    164. Andy Ellis says:

      @Ruby 10.39 am

      It’s not that hard to discern surely? It’s a debate aimed at analysing the issue and changing the minds of those who hold the opposite view. that’s allowed surely?

      Of course people are quite entitled to their views. Nobody is trying to silence them, apart it seems from a select cadre of low voltage contributors here who seem to be triggered by me having the temerity to contribute and contributing little or nothing else but repetitive posts telling me and others to shut up, or worse…you and Dotty Devine to the fore as per.

      Nobody is stopping you having a detailed discussion on the schools sex survey. Fill your boots. We’re not obliged to contribute. I won’t be posting ad nauseam telling you and others to stop discussing it though, or abusing you for doing so.

    165. John Main says:

      @Andy Ellis – 5 December, 2021 at 9:21 am

      It sure is fascinating to catch glimpses of the baked-in unquestioning assumptions that underpin so many of your posts. Or should that be “half-baked-in”?

      “I think we can safely assume EU voters may now be more inclined to vote Yes than they were in 2014, so lets assume they vote 70/30 in favour of independence next time round.”

      Why’s that then Andy? Is it because in your world, a vote for Scots Indy is going to magically morph into a vote for Brussels rule via rubber stamping in Hollyrood? Vote Yes and get, for example, (nudge, nudge, wink, wink) unelected, unconstitutional mandatory vaccination, as called for just this week by Von der Leyen. From your previous posts, I see why this sort of hidden agenda pushes your buttons.

      “Changing the franchise is using a sledgehammer to crack a nut. It kills civic nationalism stone dead and has real political and probably electoral costs, all because a vocal and politically regressive minority in the movement have bought in to the facile colonisation narrative.”

      And here, yet again, you polarise the world into the progressive and regressive, with you in the self-appointed vanguard of progressivism, fighting to enlighten those mired in the darkness of regressivism.

      Still, as you are always calling for others here to show their working, why don’t you step up and do the same.

      Provide the figures that support your contention that a Scots Indy referendum, restricted to Scots who can demonstrate a track record of residence and contribution towards the support and improvement of Scotland (through residence, service and tax paying), will reduce the numbers who vote Yes.

      My counter-contention is that if you go to ordinary Scots, the Scots who have been betrayed and left-behind by the so-called progressive policies of recent decades, and say to them they have a chance to vote for an Independent Scotland, and the vote will not be diluted, warped, or otherwise sabotaged by the multitudes whose commitment to Scotland runs no deeper than having title deeds or a rental agreement with a Scottish address on it, then these ordinary Scots will be inspired by the idea of finally having control over their own destiny.

      “Many may only be here for a year or two for work and may subsequently return or move to another part of the UK”

      Of course, Andy. And these people give not a scooby about Indy, Scotland, or anything else outside of their own interests. They are here in pursuit of short-term gain, not to perform altruistic charity work. Given a vote, they will vote for the status quo that when plugged into their spreadsheet of cost-benefit analysis, made it worthwhile to come here in the first place.

    166. Ruby says:

      Andy Ellis says:
      5 December, 2021 at 11:03 am
      @Ruby 10.39 am

      It’s not that hard to discern surely? It’s a debate aimed at analysing the issue and changing the minds of those who hold the opposite view. that’s allowed surely?


      There is no debate it’s just you dictating to others repeating the same thing day after day.

      You have been working hard on the topic for months & yet I doubt if you have changed anyone’s mind.

    167. Andy Ellis says:

      @Dan 10.52 am

      You’re right of course, there are all shades of opinion within the movement and will be post independence. The issue at hand however is to what extent we can afford politically and should in moral terms diverge from the established 2014 “big tent” inclusive precedent.

      Of course I’ve considered that “the political and electoral costs you speak of may actually work the other way from what you perceive.”

      Removing tens of thousands of non-native born Scots (however the nativists decided to do it) will naturally remove some New Scottish No voters from the equation. It will also remove some New Scottish Yes voters and potentially provoke some soft No voters who might have changed to reconsider, or other “soft Yes” voters to change to opposing independence on those terms.

      The numbers themselves may not be that large, so the chances are they become important only where the overall result is on a knife edge. I’m not interested in pandering to right wing social conservatives, still less letting such a regressive political tail wag the nationalist dog.

    168. Dan says:

      Andy Ellis says: at 11:03 am

      …a select cadre of low voltage contributors here…

      That could actually be a compliment in eco-bonus point energy consumption efficiency terms, but you’d need to ascertain if they were drawing low or high current whilst dealing with your resistance.


      Dinae fash yersel for providing a response, I’m awa oot fishing…

    169. Andy Ellis says:

      @Ruby 11.17 am

      I wouldn’t trust you to come in from the rain Ruby, still less accept your confident assertion that I won’t have changed anyone’s mind, although quite how you’d know that is anyone’s guess. How many people’s minds have you changed with your constant whingeing?

      I’m not dictating anything to anyone. You saying it doesn’t render it factual. People are free – within Stu’s constraints – to come in here and post what they want on topics that interest them and others. I’m free to disagree with them, and even (clutches pearls in horror!!) call them moon howlers, nativists and regressive blood and soil nationalists.

      However much you and a few others dislike it there IS an appetite for discussing the issue. Nobody is forcing you to engage, and we all know you really don’t contribute anything meaningful to the debate anyway, just throw rocks from the sidelines then scuttle off back under your stone until the next time you get triggered.

      As for your usual whine, I refer you to Stu’s wise words from twitter in September, which you and the usual suspects should take to heart:

      “And stop whining that by saying this I’m trying to “shut down debate”. I have no power and no desire to stop you debating it. You can debate it all you want. I’m not reporting you to Twitter or the police.”

    170. Grouse Beater says:

      “Illness is of course no real excuse for his propensity to lash out at those with the temerity to disagree with him.”

      No one ‘disagreed with me’. I rarely post here, you balloon.

      I reject the thuggery of Tannadice’s fascist compulsion to firebomb anybody he thinks unsettles his attacks on intelligent thought. I also dismiss your political illiteracy. As for your never-ending parade of personal hurt, like Tannadice, chronically obsessed with self, stop projecting your faults onto others. Get a life.

    171. Ruby says:

      Andy Ellis says:

      Nobody is stopping you having a detailed discussion on the schools sex survey. Fill your boots. We’re not obliged to contribute. I won’t be posting ad nauseam telling you and others to stop discussing it though, or abusing you for doing so.


      ‘We’re not obliged to contribute.’

      Is ‘we’ one of your pronouns?

      You won’t be posting telling me to stop discussing the ‘schools sex survey’ because I won’t be posting all day every day for months about it. If I were to follow in your footsteps I bet there would be plenty people complaining or perhaps just doing what they are doing and just staying away.

      You are however posting ad nauseam telling me and others to stop discussing your contribution!

    172. Ruby says:

      Andy Ellis says:

      Nobody is forcing you to engage, and we all know you really don’t contribute anything meaningful to the debate anyway,

      Here you go with the ‘we’ pronoun again.

      ‘However much you and a few others dislike it there IS an appetite for discussing the issue.’

      I don’t think so Andy! Where’s the proof?

      What would be the point in discussing the franchise at this point in time and when the issue will ultimately be decided by English based MPs.

      They will decide what is of most benefit to the Union.

      I think you just like having a fight to get rid of all your pent up anger.
      Ever thought about kick-boxing?

    173. Hatuey says:

      Andy, my point about the MSM was intended to address your view that changing the franchise would cost the independence movement votes. I don’t see how it would unless the media weaponised it, and I don’t see how they could weaponise it without looking very anti-Scottish.

      Of course, we wouldn’t need to worry about losing the votes of people that were disenfranchised; in that respect, it would probably best to look at the franchise once we have a concrete guarantee that a referendum is going to happen.

      I see there’s a lot of people saying they don’t want to discuss certain subjects again, Ruby has asked me what my purpose is here, and tannadice is being targeted for exhibiting independent thought… I suspect the underlying reasons for all of this are the same; intellectual laziness.

      Easier to pretend you’re offended than to use your brain and do some work. Easier still to fuck off.

    174. Andy Ellis says:

      @John Main 11.10 am

      1) “From your previous posts, I see why this sort of hidden agenda pushes your buttons.”

      Do enlighten us all then, because it certainly isn’t clear to me. I don’t support EU membership for the record, and haven’t done for some time. The plain fact remains though that the overwhelming majority of Scots (both Yes and No voters) still do, and will probably ensure that an independent Scotland joins the EU at some point. I can see why that would trigger brexiteers and others, but facts are chiels that winnae ding.

      It seems a pretty safe bet that EU voters in 2014 voted strongly “No” because they bought the Project Fear line that a Yes victory would mean Scotland was outside the EU, which would be bad for them. It is logical, and hardly “out there” to propose that post brexit, the voting habits of the EU nationals who have not left Scotland in disgust, may have switched. You can argue against it, but it’s hardly an outlandish proposition except to the ideologically blinkered.

      2) “Still, as you are always calling for others here to show their working, why don’t you step up and do the same.”

      I just did so up thread: see the comment in response to Hatuey. Anyone who can operate a basic spreadsheet can do the maths for themselves. Feed in the number in the electorate, the % turnout, and the % for each “ethnicity”, then play around with the Yes/No split for each group.

      It’s hardly rocket science to discern that it’s the circa 80-85% of native born Scots who hold the key, and that the voting patterns of the UK, EU and rest of the world voters will only really be decisive in the event that the “native born” Scots are pretty evenly split.

      So, like so many of the unthinking nativists you either haven’t bothered to read the exchanges on this issue, or are just making shit up because you’re intellectually lazy and want someone else to do you homework. Stun us with another.

      3) “My counter-contention is that if you go to ordinary Scots,….”

      What’s sauce for the goose, John…..? Please show your workings. Who are these “ordinary Scots”? What % of the population are they? How do you know their voting intentions? It’s all very well to try and rubbish my analysis and cast doubt on whether it’s valid or not, but why is your “counter-contention” more convincing?

      As I’ve asked the nativist claque quite often in the past months, where’s the evidence of any support for their views? Any polling? Any statements from people other than Alf Baird and Grouse Beater supporting their “Scotland as Colony” and “indigenous Scots rool ya bass” outpourings?

      No….? Thought not. That’s because it’s about as palatable as a rat sandwich to most in the movement.

      4) “Given a vote, they will vote for the status quo …”

      Another sweeping statement. The limited polling evidence we have was that the “rest of UK” voters split 70/30 against indy last time. Neither you or anyone else can predict if that will change for #indyref2 or in plebiscitary elections, neither can you predict how EU and “rest of the world” voters may have changed in the intervening period since 2014.

      It’s quite possible that the 70/30 will become 60/40. Who knows, that switch might even be the difference between a win and a loss in our favour this time. Of course, you could just carry on arguing that it’s better to remove the vote from anyone not born here who doesn’t have “X” years residence, but don’t try and pretend that comes at zero political cost either, because it simply isn’t true.

      5) “And here, yet again, you polarise the world into the progressive and regressive, with you in the self-appointed vanguard of progressivism, fighting to enlighten those mired in the darkness of regressivism.”

      It’s called having principles John. Of course I believe “my” principles are right, and those of people I regard as socially and politically conservative and regressive are “wrong”. That seems pretty unexceptional in political discourse. Perhaps you’ve just led a sheltered life.

      More likely from what I’ve seen in here over recent months, you’re just another hard of thinking individual trying to tone police the debate, or who equates disagreement or being called regressive or a moon howler with abuse and frantically clutches their pearls like a Morningside matron having a fit of the vapours. We saw the same during Project Fear between 2012-14 from the yoons: it was bullshit then, it remains bullshit today.

    175. Brian Doonthetoon says:

      Anther wee heads-up.

      The IndependenceLive crowdfunder is struggling. Every quid helps. If we don’t support it and use it, we’ll lose it.

    176. Andy Ellis says:

      @Grouse Beater 11.34 am

      “I rarely post here, you balloon.”

      We are truly thankful for small mercies.

      The site is all the better for your lack of input.

    177. Hatuey says:

      A word of encouragement to Tannadice… don’t let the sniping bug you. I disagree with about 90% of the things you say, but you’ve never bored or offended me. I generally find you pleasantly unpredictable and the gave up trying to pigeonhole you months ago. You’re probably crackers but that’s a basic membership requirement for the Good Guy’s Club…

      Being social animals, we are basically here to have a chat. There’s no requirement to do more than that. Let off steam, say things you don’t get to say in the real world, stress test ideas, experiment, learn from others, etc., etc., it’s all harmless and wholesome, arguably useful.

      Time to put some football bets on…

    178. Ruby says:

      Hatuey says:

      I see there’s a lot of people saying they don’t want to discuss certain subjects again, Ruby has asked me what my purpose is here


      I did not say I didn’t want to discuss certain subjects. I said I did not want to discuss the same subject forever especially when it serves absolutely no purpose.

      What on earth is wrong with asking you why you post here?

      ‘tannadice is being targeted for exhibiting independent thought’

      LOL Tannadice’s post were incomprehesible.

    179. Ruby says:

      Andy Ellis says:
      5 December, 2021 at 12:13 pm
      @Grouse Beater 11.34 am

      “I rarely post here, you balloon.”

      We are truly thankful for small mercies.

      The site is all the better for your lack of input.


      Here he goes with the we pronoun again!

    180. Stoker says:

      Andy Ellis posted:

      “I know all the nativists hate me bringing it up (it certainly seems to trigger them, which is part of the fun of doing it!), but the founder of this site has been quite open about his distaste for blood and soil nationalism.”

      And he also told you & others, just a thread or two ago, to “take it elsewhere.”

    181. Tannadice Boy says:

      @Hatuey 12:13pm
      Cheers. I am glad I didn’t put a bet on. My team are going to be on the wrong side of a drubbing here. Yes it’s a rough and tumble blog but never boring I would agree with that.

    182. Ruby says:

      Andy Ellis posted:

      “I know all the nativists hate me bringing it up (it certainly seems to trigger them, which is part of the fun of doing it!)


      That is the definition of ‘flame baiting’

      I think ‘we can all agree that Andy Ellis is a ‘flame baiter’

      Should flame-baiters be banned?

    183. Hatuey says:

      Well, tannadice, my bet is looking good. All I need now is United to score 3 goals.

    184. Hatuey says:

      I finally worked out what “community spread” means.

      When there’s a surge in coronavirus cases that makes ScotGov/Nicola look bad, that’s “community spread”.

      Sturgeon the groupie was all over the useless COP conference, working on her selfie collection. We all know it’s highly like that the omicron came to Scotland with COP, and that association isn’t a good look for someone that wasn’t even meant to be there, so we’ll call it “community spread”.

      The same thing happened last year when schools went back. We had an opportunity to eradicate the virus completely until the schools went back and case numbers surged through the roof. They literally denied there was a connection back then between schools returning and case numbers.

      Tell the dumb masses it’s “community spread” and cancel Christmas…

      Of course, it’s implicit since the dumb masses are the community, everything is our fault and not attributable to ScotGov policy. The victims are therefor responsible for their own misery. That’s been a recurring theme since the start when they intentionally let the virus spread with their murderous “herd immunity” strategy.

      It’s all “community spread” and it’s all your fault, but only when things goes pear-shaped. When case numbers fall, that’s different — that’s down to Nicola, the “poor wee lassie” who is “on this” and has worked tirelessly to protect us.

    185. Alf Baird says:

      Andy Ellis @ 10.55

      “The colonisation schtick”

      The scientific and theoretical basis confirming that Scotland’s people are subject to colonialism has already been provided, and this includes how Scotland fits the definition of colonialism, as well as how its ongoing treatment and ‘condition’ reflects postcolonial theory:

      For those such as yourself who vehemently reject this hypothesis, you really need to come up with an alternative and convincing scientific and theoretical evaluation which proves that Scotland is not subject to colonialism. I look forward to seeing your evidence and analysis on that.

    186. Republicofscotland says:

      Switched the tv on to a supposedly “Scottish channel and low and behold there two minor English football teams are playing each other. Of course STV sold out Scotland years ago it now carries entirely ITV’s output, why then call it Scottish television when it carries no Scottish programming, I suppose its all part of the continuing replacement of Scottishness with Britishness that’s going on at every level now, from supermarket labels on foods and just about all other packaging, to the Internal Market bill, which dips into devolved matters.

    187. Republicofscotland says:

      Stoker @12.28pm.

      On the blood and soil nationalism bit, well many EU countries must practice blood and soil nationalism, for the don’t give a constitutional vote to non natives.

      Of course we know that the likes of Denmark doesn’t practice blood and soil nationalism, so the phrase with regards to Scotland is nonsense, if we go down the same route on a constitutional plebiscite as Denmark does, however for some using the phrase is all part of their vocabulary to persuade others that enfranchising everyone is the way forward, even though that route leads to yes losing.

    188. Graf Midgehunter says:

      With Andy, Tannadice, Hatuey an’ John M., it’s like the “Goon Show” on bromide with laxatives.

    189. Andy Ellis says:

      @ Alf Baird 1.29 pm

      Self referencing your take on other people’s work relating to “real” colonial situations doesn’t count as confirmation of the scientific and theoretical basis of your “Scotland is a colony” patter Alf: it remains your flawed interpretation. You’re entitled to believe it’s true, you’re not entitled to your own class of facts.

      I and I suspect many others who are sceptical of your hypothesis would be more convinced by peer reviewed papers by acknowledged experts in the field which support your claim that Scotland’s situation is one of colonisation. Doubtless the UN would be issuing statements in support? The Irish government perhaps…you know, a place that really DID suffer from colonisation, not just a bad case of the national political cojones failing to descend?

      Or again, we’d expect to be hearing about all the support within the Scottish political establishment for your claims: any political parties, constituency associations, MPs, MSPs…? Councillors? Trades Unions? Community Councillors?

      No, thought not.

      In a “cowboys versus Indians” situation, trying to assume the role of Indians against British cowboys for Scotland iust seems like appropriation as Malory Nye noted in 2017:

      “More broadly, the metaphor of cowboys and Indians refers to our judgements of history. In particular, does Scotland want to be seen (and to think about itself) as a nation that colonised others or was itself colonised?

      It is important to start off with a recognition that much of the rest of the world most likely sees Scotland as part of the ‘cowboy team’. Over the course of more than 150 years of history, Scotland (and Scots of all classes) were willing participants in the project of British imperialism.

      Scots were colonial administrators, soldiers, governors, merchants, bankers, explorers, and much more. Much of Scotland grew wealthy on resources that were extracted from the British colonies. A lot of wealth poured into Scotland (particularly Glasgow) from the trading of slaves, and more particularly the commodities that were produced by enslaved people — such as tobacco and sugar.

      We need to recognise our own history: Scots were a large part of the British empire, willing participants in the global structures of power that exploited and robbed large swathes of Asia, Africa, and elsewhere.

      It was through the unification of Scots with England that a successful partnership emerged, founded on the emerging idea of whiteness. Scotland was always a junior partner, but both sides together built up powerful domains based on the idea of being racially distinct and politically dominant over other (‘subservient’) ‘races’.”

      The reason many people, including me but also I’m willing to bet many victims and descendants of “real” colonialism, find your “Scotland as colony” narrative jarring Alf, is that Scots were very often willing participants and beneficiaries – directly and indirectly – of British colonialism. That isn’t to say that Scots weren’t often victims of oppression too, but to posit an equivalence between the colonial experiences is very much a minority view, as your repeated failure – despite many requests – to present any significant support for your theory in the broader movement amply demonstrates.

    190. Andy Ellis says:

      @RoS 2.50 pm

      This claim has also been done to death over the past few months, but nativists continue to trot it out. The difference is that Denmark or any other independent country decides what is constitutional because they are already independent. Scotland is not yet independent. The overwhelming majority of self determination referendums since World War 2 have used residence criteria, not ethnic or blood line criteria to determine who is eligible to vote, as was the case for #indyref1.

      You and all the other nativists are quite free to argue that it should be changed. Those of us who disagree (the pesky “we” of Ruby’s nightmares, who still represent the overwhelming majority of the movement despite what the clapping seals in here fondly imagine) are free to point out that it’s not without risk, as well as being self defeating and immoral.

      Enfranchising residents as per the existing precedent is the norm. You’re the ones who are out of step, not me. You’re the ones who are risking the achievement of international recognition, not me.

      As you amply demonstrate with your return to an already discredited argument however, you just can’t educate pork.

    191. Confused says:

      blaming the victims andy, you really are a fucking lowlife aren’t you; “Scots as colonisers” that old trope, or is it a canard; you are a dissembling prick and you need your arse booted. In case anyone hasn’t got this guys number yet … save it for later –

      Ellis is a fake-nat who shills for : atlanticist foreign policy, NATO, corporate globalism, “civic nationalism” i.e. anti-actual-nationalism, promotes BBC propaganda about Russia and China, hunts down dissenters as “conspiracy theorists”, polices the forum for “anti-semitism”, does the work of the average 77th/JTRIG/Hasbara troll (for free), and generally insults people he doesn’t like with various hackneyed phrases like “moon howlers” (get a thesaurus); likes to “go nazi” as it wins all arguments. Seems to be, or have the sensibilities of a middle class englishman and has a barely disguised loathing for the majority of working class Scots whe were born here, with parents who were born here and grandparents – who have the audacity to think that indy is something about improving their lives. He also has 2 blogs of his own (piffle), but does his “stealth blogging” on Wings because he has no traffic. He is an oxygen thief who will waste your time if you engage with him. He has joined ALBA, where he will be wasting a lot of peoples time, in person. His principle argumentation is the -fallacious- “argument from authority” based on his own irrelevant qualifications, which he has never put to practical use anyway. Employs a cloying sanctimony and never suggests any practical method which would take Scotland an iota closer to independence. His positions often mirror the execrable, Bella Caledonia, owned by verifiable donkey’s arse Mike Small; often told to “fuckoff” by wingers, many of whom he has antagonised, he always returns. Expressing skepticism over mainstream govt policy of universal vaccination (despite ignorance of potential long term side effects) also attracts his ire. A scrofulous execresence, to be watched. Whatver he says that is “not wrong” is usually rather bland, and obvious. Puts a lot of time into a comatose website, semi abandoned by its owner, and with most of the regular posters drifted away; in other words, his behaviour is suspicious. Exhibits a studenty cuntishness in his word choice, e.g. weltanschauung rather than world-view. His jokes aren’t funny, and he probably sleeps with the light on. His insults are tepid, predictable. Cries out in pain, even as he spams you. Whines to the Rev. Probably never seen Braveheart, the greatest and most historically accurate movie of all time, with the second best actor, Mel Gibson, just short of Sean Connery. Probably calls “ginger”, “POP” and lacks the unique genetic features of the True Scotsman, i.e. our 3 stranded, 16 base pair DNA, making us descendants of Atlantis, Hyperborea, the Nephilim and the Tuatha De Danaan. This last section is a joke, to see if you read this far, but most of this is, alas, quite accurate.

    192. Alf Baird says:

      Andy Ellis @ 4:00 pm

      “Scots were very often willing participants and beneficiaries – directly and indirectly – of British colonialism”

      Is that it, that’s the extent of your analysis?

      I’m sure the great many Scots evicted from Scotland, dispossessed of their lands and shipped off to the colonies as part of British government policy/Acts will be re-assured by that.

      Colonialism is always “a cooperative venture”, as we see in the articles of the treaty where the interests of elites are protected. That is the ‘norm’ and you would know this if you made the effort to study postcolonial literature.

    193. Andy Ellis says:

      @Ruby 12.44 pm

      I dunno about flame baiting: you lot just have no sense of humour, as well as few brain cells to rub together.

      I’d prefer the hard of thinking who contribute nothing but whingeing about other people posting are banned. Stu can do what he likes I guess: his site, his rules.

      For someone who purports to be so bored of the topic, you seem to spend an inordinate amount of time and effort tone policing BTL comments and trying to have people banned.

      Perhaps if you spent some of that effort more constructively you wouldn’t be such a bore Ruby? I haven’t seen any of your scintillating discussions going anywhere….strange that.*

      *entirely understandable given the MO.

    194. Andy Ellis says:

      @Confused 4.13 pm

      At least I appreciate the use of paragraph breaks bud. TL/DR.

      Still, it must feel better to get that off your chest….assuming you can see the screen for all the spittle flecks? Just another barely verbal nativist soiling the nest, huh? Accompanied by the usual threats of violence and accusations of not being a real nationalists. Hard man eh? Probably eating frosties from the box in yer kecks and still live with yer mammy.

    195. Dan says:

      Time for a beer me thinks…
      Quaffing it in celebration of the win for the fish today. I’d say they won fairly, but in my defense the task of catching my dinner was somewhat impeded by the splashing and shrieking English accents reverberating around the hills emanating from the ladies loonydooking in the loch.
      Not very civic behaviour when one is just trying to have a tranquil afternoon holding his rod.

    196. Andy Ellis says:

      @Alf Baird 4.54 pm

      It’s as valid an analysis as your faulty interpretation of literature on “real” colonialism you’re attempting to apply to case which doesn’t qualify as colonialism Alf.

      I’m still waiting for the independent analysis (i.e. excluding you linking to your own articles mis-applying secondary sources) from primary and peer reviewed sources which supports your assertion that Scotland qualifies as a situation of colonisation.

      Either you have such evidence, or you don’t. The UN certainly haven’t included Scotland on its list of non-self governing territories, and I’m sure you and others would have been shouting it from the rooftops if the Irish PM or foreign minster had stood up the Dàil and decried the colonial occupation of a fellow Celtic nation.

      So other than your own articles and analysis, so far you’re coming up pretty empty on the evidence front. It’s not up to me to disprove your claim, which only the nutter fringe buys. Extraordinary claims require extraordinary proof.

      We’re still waiting.

      (Hint: “The Collected Works of Chairman Alf” don’t count, ‘K?).

    197. Dan says:

      The dictionary definition of being colonised might actually resonate with more Scots folk if the subject matter was ever floated in front of their nappers by the BBC and MSM…

      Andy yet again rolling out the royal “we”. When was he elected to be the voice of whomever he speaks for. I don’t recall being included in the voting franchise that supposedly gave him the authority to speak for the “we” group.

    198. Ruby says:

      Dan says:
      5 December, 2021 at 5:07 pm
      Time for a beer me thinks…
      Quaffing it in celebration of the win for the fish today. I’d say they won fairly, but in my defense the task of catching my dinner was somewhat impeded by the splashing and shrieking English accents reverberating around the hills emanating from the ladies loonydooking in the loch.
      Not very civic behaviour when one is just trying to have a tranquil afternoon holding his rod.


      ‘The English Flamebaiter’ claims I am a bore and my scintillating discussions go nowhere…

      That is possible but due to the format of this forum it’s difficult to know.

      For example I really appreciate Dan’s post they are always witty but I never tell him that. If there were a voting system I would regularly be giving him ***** stars.

      Thank you for your posts Dan. I do appreciate a good old double entendre!

      PS You asked for information in an earlier post about one of the Alphabetties. Did you ever get an answer?

    199. Ruby says:

      Brian Doonthetoon says:
      5 December, 2021 at 12:08 pm
      Anther wee heads-up.

      The IndependenceLive crowdfunder is struggling. Every quid helps. If we don’t support it and use it, we’ll lose it.


      This is another type of post I would give five stars to.
      I really appreciate post with links to crowd funders & other interesting articles.

      Thank you Brian Doonthetoon.

    200. Ruby says:

      When I saw Dan’s post asking about one of the Alphabetties I was reminded of an earlier thread where myself and other posters were subjected to enormous amount of abuse for asking about the Alphabetties. We were just trying to establish which one of them did what. I wasn’t looking for names just what their complaints were. I was called a ‘roaster’ etc etc and accused of trying to shut down this site.

      In spite of the tirade of abuse someone did post info about who did what.

      If you can find that particular thread the answer to Dan’s question could be there.

      Any hot tips on how to find old threads.

    201. Andy Ellis says:

      @Dan 5.41 pm

      I wouldn’t get too bent out of shape about the use of the word “we” Dan: it’s not being used in the Margaret Thatcher sense of “we are a grandparent” or anything. It may simply mean me and another person involved in the convo who has been supportive like e.g. Tannadice or Hatuey when “we” agreed on something, even where “we” disagreed on others.

      In other contexts, I might presume to speak on behalf of what I regard as the “majority”. Of course others may disagree that my views reflect those of the majority, which is fair enough. I’ve seen nothing that convinces me that the majority of Scots as a whole or of the pro independence movement accept the “Scotland as colony” positions.

      Alf and others have for example repeatedly been asked for and failed to provide evidence that their views represent those of anything other than a small minority. Much the same could be said of the views of anti-vaxxers. In neither case are their views mainstream or generally accepted.

      I’ve no idea why it appears to trigger some like Ruby that I dare to use “we” when referring to the majority who reject such narratives. To be frank I don’t really care either. The intellectual level of folk like Ruby, Confused and sad to say even of Gareth Wardell can be deduced from their casual use of the epithet “English” as though it was an insult. Obviously in their tiny minds I MUST be English, right…or an MI5 plant…. or not the right KIND of nationalist because I disagree with them and point and laugh at their woo-woo views.

      As though that doesn’t make them look even more like the kind of xenophobic bigots that UKIP would look sideways at. Good grief.

    202. sarah says:

      @ Dan at 5.07 “…just trying to hold his rod..”. Ooh, you are awful, but as Ruby says there’s a lot of us who like you!

      Re the thread hoggers, I suggest we follow the Rev’s guidance – I’m sure you all know how to contact him?

    203. Hatuey says:

      In some respects it’s a colony, and I’d say that includes the most important areas, and in other respects we don’t really have a satisfactory name for the democratic illusions they have conjured up. All they really devolved was administrative responsibilities.

      If I had to choose one of these two poles, I’d say Scotland is essentially a colony, albeit a rather weird one, but let’s not pretend we fit into any mould that Vladimir Lenin created 100 years or so ago.

      It’s lazy to jump to extremes and poles.

      The idea that Scottish people simply bottled it in 2014 is quite obnoxious even to me. Are we to pretend ‘Project Fear’ and ‘The Vow’ didn’t happen? Are we to pretend that the information well that most Scottish people drink from isn’t poisoned? We didn’t lose in 2014, propaganda and lies won.

      The truth is somewhere in between but we would be in a much healthier position today as a country if more people rather than less believed Scotland was in the grip of a colonial relationship.

    204. Dan says:

      @ Ruby at 5.44pm

      Re. Alphabetties

      I do recall a Wings btl post that listed a key of initial Complainers to their latter Witness / Miss letter status in the trial.
      I think it may have been occasional poster AlisonB, but she used a name like albaharry that tweaked the Wings word filter when alba was filtered out, so they changed it slightly and I’m having no success back searching.
      But could also have been Daisy Walker who is one for noting down the fine details.
      So there’s possibly a task for BDtt or any other with more advance it search skills.
      The info is also probably included somewhere in Craig Murray and Gordon Dangerfield blogs.
      My laptop shat itself a while back and I unfortunately lost a few bookmarked posts…

    205. Ruby says:

      Hatuey says:
      5 December, 2021 at 7:00 pm
      In some respects it’s a colony,

      The UK Gov’s argument against Scotland being a colony is that Scotland as a country does not exist. They claim Scotland was extinguished in 1707 and became Lesser England.

      As I’ve said before I fail to understand why an independence supporter could be so incensed by ‘Scotland in the Union’ being described as a colony.

      Either Scotland is a colony or Scotland was extinguished in 1707.

      If Scotland was extinguished in 1707 & that is the argument then we are more like the Native Americans & Australians than we are like Bermuda.

      Which makes you most angry Scotland being described as a colony or UK Gov. claiming Scotland has been extinguished?

    206. Breeks says:

      I don’t want to inflame the argument about the voting franchise, I’m firmly in one camp and not the other, but constructive debate is still something to be encouraged.

      What I do think is missing from that debate is input from outside Scotland, specifically what criteria the UN or perhaps individual Countries would actually recognise, and what would constitute the threshold for Scottish Independence in their eyes.

      Straight away, we know we’ll get the customary “cannot interfere in domestic politics” routine, but that should not be applicable if and when was exercising it’s own sovereignty and acting unilaterally.

      We already have Mark McNaught giving us encouraging signs from abroad about EFTA, but more of that, and more feedback on actual Independence would be fantastic.

    207. Robert Hughes says:

      Dan says:
      5 December, 2021 at 5:41 pm
      ” The dictionary definition of being colonised might actually resonate with more Scots folk if the subject matter was ever floated in front of their nappers by the BBC and MSM… ”

      And that my piscine pestering ( or not – * wink * ) friend is the entire crux of the matter .

      Whether anyone thinks Scotland is a colony ( what does ” is ” mean ? ) or not it could only be a good thing if more Scots were aware of all the many ways in which they are disadvantaged by the disastrous * decision * to become part of a union with our neighbours doon the road . Knowledge = Power n’aw that .

      The work of Alf Baird – and others – should be in every school in the country – y’know, rather than ” Lucinda’s Penis ” – and ideally in every home .

      You don’t have to believe Scotland IS a colony to see clearly that in a multitude of ways it is negatively affected by the overbearing presence and influence of a bigger , more powerful entity .

      Sounds like a colonial situation to me

    208. Ruby says:

      Dan says:
      5 December, 2021 at 7:17 pm
      @ Ruby at 5.44pm

      Re. Alphabetties


      In the post I am referring to the poster who provided pretty precise info I believe was called Al. He did occasionally write articles for Wings and I think he had his own blog.

      The person objecting strongly to any discussion about the ‘Alphabetties’ was Al-Stuart & a female poster. ?

      The article may have been about jigsaw identification with a warning from Stu not to do it.

      Al-Stuart interpreted the warning as absolutely no discussion about the ‘Alphabetties’ and I got hell from him and whatshername.

      Was all the useful information about the trial not taken down from Craig Murray’s site?

      I have tried
      a site search of Wings but I don’t think comments are included.

      If anyone can help it will be BDtt. He’s an ace with everything to do with computers and the internet.

    209. Brian Doonthetoon says:

      Hi Dan.

      I always find it’s worth re-reading this couple of pages at the Internet Archive.

      It’s also worth re-reading this link from the Shropshire Star, after you’ve read the above, particularly the first.

      That story appeared in a number of UK newspapers, including the ‘Belfast Telegraph’. It was the reporting in The Herald and the Garavelli “story” that led me to that last link.

      I had an interesting chat with a guy on Friday night, who had the list of names relating to the alphabetties. I knew the Scottish-based ones but was ignorant about the Westminster-based ones. I did recognise the names of the people who they worked for, but didn’t recognise the alphabetties’ names.

    210. Ruby says:

      The term ‘wilderness’ is ringing a bell re the poster called Al referred to earlier. I think that might have been part of the name of his blog.

    211. Dan says:

      Cheers BDtt, will have a read and catch up later in week.

      Ruby. You may be referring to Al Harron – Wilderness of Peace, which is linked to in blogs listed at top of page.

    212. Andy Ellis says:

      @Breeks 7.33 pm

      The precedents are there, even if none of them are an exact fit with Scotland’s exact circumstances though. The indications are that “if” the vote had been Yes in 2014, international recognition would have been pretty automatic, therefore changing from that precedent has risks. It doesn’t necessarily mean the international community won’t accept change, but they’ll have to be convinced it’s OK.

      The UN, EU and others prefer agreed processes: that’s why Kosovan independence was hard and still isn’t universally recognised, and largely why the Catalan independence bid failed.

      If it was as “easy” as asserting that we qualified as a colony, where’s the evidence for that or general acceptance from disinterested third parties? If our colonial status was a “thing”, we’d be able to quote all the support for that position abroad.

      So where is it?

      The hard questions the nativists and “Scotland as colony” proponents aren’t answering are still there.

      Will they accept a change in the franchise?
      Will they accept us jettisoning the referendum route altogether in favour of plebiscitary elections?
      Will they accept a “novel” route that uses neither a referendum nor plebiscitary elections?

      The international community expects a people who want self determination to exhaust other routes before taking unusual steps. As a movement we can certainly put together a case that the British nationalists have unreasonably refused #indyref2 – or at least we can when the legal case is finally done.

      We have to push for that to happen quickly so we can move on, because if we don’t the danger is a significant section of the international community will simply say: “You haven’t exhausted all the reasonable routes open to you”.

      The SSRG’s approaches to EFTA are a great start, but as you say the interim responses from most counties and international organisations will be they won’t interfere in internal UK politics. They simply don’t accept we are a colony, so different rules apply. UDI is a weapon of last resort: it would take a long time and be messy: ask the Kosovars and Catalans.

    213. Brian Doonthetoon says:

      Al Jarron (Taranaich) – “Wilderness of Peace”.

    214. Andy Ellis says:

      @ Resident nativists.

      Trigger Warning! Al Jarron (Taranaich) thinks franchise change is a crap idea too:

      “Should the topic of whether the franchise in 2014 – that is, any adult of voting age in Scotland regardless of their national status – should stay the same for any future independence referendum, I will happily and heartily advocate that yes, it should.

      My reasoning hasn’t changed, and my conclusions have not either. If you live in Scotland, you get to decide its future. That’s how it works in other independent countries, so that’s how I think it should work for aspiring-to-become independent countries.”

    215. Ruby says:

      Brian Doonthetoon says:
      Bloody Hell! You are brilliant
      Your 8:15 post merits 10 stars!

      Al Jarron (Taranaich) – “Wilderness of Peace”.

      The very person!
      I wonder how he is getting on.

    216. Hatuey says:

      “That’s how it works in other independent countries, so that’s how I think it should work for aspiring-to-become independent countries.”

      We can dismiss this junk very quickly. The UK which operates and is recognised as an independent country didn’t play by those rules when it came to brexit.

      It’s the sort of reasoning the Indonesians deployed in East Timor. Guess what, the UN rejected it.

    217. Andy Ellis says:

      @Hatuey 8.59 pm

      The brexit referendum wasn’t for self determination tho’ bud….well not unless you’re a frothing brexiteer.

      Self determination referendums =/= constitutional referendums held by already independent countries, however hard you try to make them equivalent.

    218. Andy Ellis says:

      In case anyone missed it, interesting article with important implications for free speech and one in the eye for the wokerati:

    219. Dorothy Devine says:

      Ian B , Dow’s it is then!

      And a merry and a happy to you and yours, loud chorus of we’ll meet again we know where but not when!

    220. Hatuey says:

      If Brexit wasn’t about independence, Andy, I have no idea what it was about.

    221. Keith fae Leith says:

      The Poster who you are thinking of was Alison Balharry, who went by the moniker of the fairly new political party followed by a number(guessing her year of birth) & does/did on twitter as well.

      I don’t recall Al Jarron (Wilderness of Peace) doing any posts on the conspirators group.

    222. Republicofscotland says:

      A third of Scots are in fuel poverty right now, and some have been since before the recent price rises, next April will see another eyewatering £500 rise onto fuel bills for Scots, tipping more Scots into fuel poverty.

      Yet we often read about how Scotland has a surplus of power and that the excess is sold to the rest of the UK, so why are Scots when Scotland is swimming in energy sources paying through the nose for it.

      This current Scottish government under Sturgeon has done virtually nothing to mitigate fuel poverty which will only increase, Sturgeon is too busy introducing gender laws, hate crimes laws and pointing the finger at Westminster to try and raise Scots out of fuel poverty, I’ll bet you no MSP or Scottish MP is sitting with the heating off in Winter, and their children certainly won’t have to chose between heating and eating.

      The Scottish government are a disgrace on this matter alone never mind other matters it shameful the amount of families, and pensioners for that matter that will need to sit with their heating either off or turned down low this Winter, because this lot at Holyrood are too gutless and spineless to actually do anything about it.

    223. Dan says:

      @ Keith fae Leith

      Aye, but pretty sure over time they have posted btl with a couple of different names.
      In the following thread they post as Abalha.

      But iirc latterly they used a different name, possibly as you say with 62 in it.
      Without knowing the exact name and as they are an occasional poster I’ve struggled to search previous posts to see if they did actually post the info I was looking for.
      It’s not the end of the world and will chase it up through other means.

    224. Republicofscotland says:

      Sturgeon hasn’t moved one step away from the disastrous Sterlingisation on independence even though the Tim Rideout and those at the SNP conference think its better to have our own currency than have a foreign country’s central bank control our interest rates.

      We’re not one step closer to penning a constitution for Scotland either. The SNP government under Sturgeon’s tenure has been one disaster after another on constitutional matters, independence is further away than its ever been except for the the legitimate route out of this vile union proposed by the SSRG, which Sturgeon will definitely ignore.

      Meanwhile Scots will continue to feel the consequences of Brexit and London rule, not to mention the machinations of Sturgeon and her nasty clique. We’re getting it in the neck from all directions.

    225. Jack Murphy says:

      Craig Murray was interviewed yesterday by George Galloway on his TV Talkshow.

      Craig is looking and sounding well.

      The link begins at 27 minutes in.


    226. Ruby says:

      Attempted rape after Bute House dinner in 2014
      Not at dinner?
      Wanted to work with Salmond 2015
      August 2018 message in which she said to the other alleged victim that she had “a plan” that “means we can be anonymous but see strong repercussions”.

      A woman who has accused Alex Salmond of sexually assaulting her on two separate occasions has denied suggestions that the incidents did not happen.

      But the witness, known as Woman H, insisted she was telling the truth.

      A text from Woman H to Woman J appeared to say: “I have a plan and means we can be anonymous but see strong repercussions.”

      Just need to find out which letter of the alphabet Miss H had before trial.

    227. Ruby says:

      Jack Murphy says:
      6 December, 2021 at 11:53 am
      Craig Murray was interviewed yesterday by George Galloway on his TV Talkshow.


      Thanks very much for that link Jack.

      I’m off to watch it now.

    228. Ruby says:

      Craig looking well! He’s shaved and had a haircut. 🙁
      No more jobs as Santa or advertising Birds Eye Fishfingers!

      I did like his beard & long hair. I don’t think Nadira did though!

      I thought while things are quiet here on Wings it might be interesting to look back at old articles and re-read them.

      Stu used to churn them out at such speed it was often difficult to keep up.

      This is my first pick:

    229. Ruby says:

      More importantly Craig spoke about the legal difference between a blogger and a mainstream journalist.

      I do believe there is a Wings article all about that.

      That’ll be No 2 on my list of Wings articles to re-read.

      I just have to find it first.

      PS Any news about the ‘Daily Record’ & ‘SNP funds’ police enquiries?

    230. James Che. says:

      Is it just for laughs ? 🙂

      If Aliens are found out to be real one day.
      And if they wanted to take over the earth?
      Where do you think the most likely place is that, they will be found nesting?

      I bet they would be found disguising themselves as politicians
      For it is politicians that are destroying the earth and politicians that are destroying humans.

      They lockup humans pretending it is for their own good while they swan around freely with exemptions and excuses.

      These Aliens make sure that they themselves have access to good expensive medical care.
      while they collapse the NHS.

      These Alien politicians are attacking the elderly humans first from the advertising position, by instilling into the minds of younger generation,elderly people are unattractive and a burden on society angle, what could go wrong for the elderly when they bring in assisted death?
      Or take away the human rights for elderly locked up in care homes. With no freedom.
      And tax or steal the pensions of those elderly that saved for years,

      The Politicians posing as humans, Are going to try ensure that future generations of humans cannot multiply by destroying future sex genders of humans. This plan appears to have already begun.

      The Alien politicians will also ensure that certain laws are bought in for black humans fight the white humans so they destroy each other listening the human population.
      The second method to achieving de- population is to create false wars.
      And biochemical war viruses.

      These Alien politicians and their friends have some of the highest abuse towards young humans and women when taking account of of population related percentage. A inhumane activity.

      These Aliens and their friends produce plastic, shoot wildlife, chauffeur around in big vehicles, fly in aeroplanes around the globes at a whim, heat their massive homes,
      Set human against human through climate change politics.
      Meanwhile tax the humans for their own perks,

      The Alien politicians are closing down the humans ability to have free speech and ensuring there is no legal process to hold these Aliens accountable.
      And should the humans try protest on the street, beat them up by turning their police and armies on on the human population.

      There is them and us
      The separation of two species on the one planet is growing more obvious by the day.

      There are

    231. James Che. says:

      It made sense until submitted, whoops.
      Hope most of you got the gist of it.

      There are us and them, they are from a different planet, for they are destroying humans and their earth,

      What happened to the Nuremberg code, where enforcing medical procedures on humans against their will is considered a crime since WW2.

    232. James Che. says:

      Tinto chiel.

      Thanks for your comment,
      Not able to comment to much myself nowadays due to family illness,

      However it is important to all of us to treat each other with some sense of humanity and look after our world in Sympathetic way as you say.

      Us humans seem to be doing this in a more balanced way than the Aliens in governments that are setting human against human in warring factions. 😉

    233. Breeks says:

      James Che. says:
      6 December, 2021 at 1:27 pm

      It made sense until submitted, whoops.
      Hope most of you got the gist of it.

      I gotcha James Che.

      There’s also an alien hybrid you missed out.

      We’ve gone from YES riding on the crest of the wave back in 2014 and a joy to be a part of, to an SNP “Government” pretty much wrecking any chance of Independence but finding plenty of time to ask Scottish Schoolchildren explicitly whether they’ve had anal sex lately. I mean, WTAF???

      Those alien hybrids I mentioned are the “good” folks pretending everything is absolutely fine in the SNP, and Sturgeon’s doing a grand job. I don’t know what planet they’re coming from.

    234. Brian Doonthetoon says:

      This is a rather handy web site that gets through paywalls. I used it successfully to read Kevin McKenna this morning.

      Worth adding to your bookmarks bar and you can read about it at the link.

    235. Ruby says:

      Brian Doonthetoon says:
      6 December, 2021 at 2:35 pm
      This is a rather handy web site that gets through paywalls. I used it successfully to read Kevin McKenna this morning.


      That’s brilliant Brian.

      Forget earlier posts about Woman H.
      and read these instead

    236. Republicofscotland says:

      I expect nothing of any value to come out of this, infact, the Sturgeonistas, will put their false Messiah Sturgeon on an even higher pedestal than she is now after this carefully crafted Q&A session.

    237. Dan says:

      @ Ruby at 2.58pm

      Scrolling through comments on that latter linked article and this post (if it’s correct) by Mac helps clarify the timeline I was trying to recall.

    238. Dan says:

      Thought for the day…
      For various reasons I’m guessing playing the Kissy Catchy game ain’t such a good idea in NuScotland these days. 🙁
      Well not unless you’re a big Prison Break fan…

      I was just reminiscing (or was it reliving pure trauma) that as a wee nipper in primary school that lived for fitba n fishin, I can vividly remember being chased and pinned down by a salivating more mature girl.
      What with the heating bills going up I wonder if I’ve potential grounds for retrospective damages claim.

    239. Republicofscotland says:

      “UK inflation could “comfortably exceed” 5% by the spring when energy bills are set to rise again, the Bank of England’s deputy governor has warned.”

      We’re at the mercy of the BoE in Scotland, and we will still be at its mercy after indy if Sturgeon (who won’t hold an indyref anyway) continues with the madness that is Sterlingisation.

    240. Ruby says:

      Wot! No Kissy games in NuScotland these days.

      Is that why it’s impossible to find any mistletoe in the shops these days!

      I bought catkins instead but they aren’t very Christmasy. I wanted a nice bouquet of holy, fir & mistletoe.

      That link Brian DTT posted is excellent.

      I was using Press Reader (provided by Edinburgh Libraries) to read the Herald. It’s fine but you can’t share the articles and they are made up of images and not text.

      You can convert images to text in Google docs. It works amazingly well I was really surprised. However if the article is made up of columns you have to convert each column separately.

    241. Dan says:

      Deeth with a beef… again.
      Guess Angus Robertson will be too busy sorting out the trash problem in Edinburgh to sort out the trash talking in his Party. No doubt one for the new complaints and conduct committees to deal with…

      Archived for posterity

      Plus there was this from June this year.

    242. Tinto Chiel says:

      @James Che. 1.39: yes, you and your family have certainly had a torrid time recently, so I can only hope you will have a happier Christmas and a better 2021. Perhaps some sanity and compassion will return to the world next year and the creeping authoritarianism we have seen in the last two years can be halted.

      All the best to you and the family.

    243. Brian Doonthetoon says:

      A nod in the direction of Jack Murphy, who first posted the link on this page.

      I’ve just watched the Galloway/Murray interview. Worth watching.

      Go forward to 28 minutes; it lasts until 46 minutes.

    244. Brian Doonthetoon says:

      Sorry Rev, forgot the “www”!

      A nod in the direction of Jack Murphy, who first posted the link on this page.

      I’ve just watched the Galloway/Murray interview. Worth watching.

      Go forward to 28 minutes; it lasts until 46 minutes.

    245. Terry says:

      Keep an eye on this – roddy Dunlop is the QC on it. Could be very interesting – pals with Joanna i think

      Also the sex survey has caused ructions – McKenna was shit hot on his comments on this

    246. robbo says:

      Don’t fancy yours much Terry.

    247. Daisy Walker says:

      @ ‘ Ruby says:
      5 December, 2021 at 6:18 pm

      When I saw Dan’s post asking about one of the Alphabetties I was reminded of an earlier thread where myself and other posters were subjected to enormous amount of abuse for asking about the Alphabetties. We were just trying to establish which one of them did what. I wasn’t looking for names just what their complaints were.’

      Hello Ruby… with regards the Alphabeties, I did a timeline that listed them by their letters and married them to their complaints. This was made more difficult because their initial letters for the civil trial, were different to the letters allocated in the criminal trial.

      I only posted very edited versions of the timeline, because by that time, with Craig Murray’s trial/jail sentence, it was extremely unclear if even the above information might not cause legal problems. This was the take of a highly qualified lawyer, so I went for caution.

      I managed to work out the name of one of the Alhpabet females from Dani Gavanelli’s piece. The others from elsewhere.

      Interstingly, I learned on Friday night, that with regards the allegation of attempted rape, there were an additional 2 witnesses present that night, who could also speak to the lack of H being present at that do. Not sure why they weren’t called.

      Big shout out to BDTT. I missed you on Friday night. Hope my singing wasn’t too ‘Ubiquitous’ for you;

      Cheerie the noo folks.

    248. Brian Doonthetoon says:

      Hi Daisy.

      I had a wee blether with you on Friday!

    249. Breeks says:

      Terry says:
      6 December, 2021 at 9:43 pm

      Also the sex survey has caused ructions…


      The sex “survey” is a record of Scottish Schoolchildren who have already (claimed) to engage in underage sex, and it seems too, incredibly, that they are not anonymous but can also be identified.

      If those details were somehow “stolen”, and made available to perverts and pedophiles on the Dark Web, the most intimate details of some of Scotland’s most vulnerable children would become known and shared throughout the invisible network of online weirdos and molesters.

      The information would be a pervert’s charter. What’s to stop these despicable people from making physical contact with these children, knowing they’ve already admitted they engage illegal underage sex, and even specify anal sex, and then using that “confession” as blackmail to coerce the poor kid into doing who knows what unspeakable things?

      Whatever cretin thought up this sex “survey” idea should be interviewed by the police under caution with their backgrounds, internet activities and online connections subjected to investigation for any links with obscenities and child abuse.

      Just imagine if the Odessa File wasn’t a movie about a secret dossier of Nazi war criminals with their new identities, but instead, was a dossier of Scotland’s sexually active youngsters with their names and addresses… and that dossier was put into the hands of Pedophile networks.

      There should be police investigations and arrests made after this, and the “survey” halted and all details destroyed completely.

    250. Breeks says:

      Breeks says:
      7 December, 2021 at 7:42 am

      Terry says:
      6 December, 2021 at 9:43 pm

      Just imagine if the Odessa File wasn’t a movie about a secret dossier of Nazi war criminals with their new identities, but instead, was a dossier of Scotland’s sexually active youngsters with their names and addresses… and that dossier was put into the hands of Pedophile networks…

      And while you’re mulling that over, remember too that you can be jailed in Scotland for the unspecified crime of jigsaw identification of a “victim” of a crime which didn’t take place.

      The jigsaw identification was farcical in every detail, but this sex “survey” could put any number of vulnerable kids directly in harms way…

    251. Ruby says:

      Daisy Walker says:
      7 December, 2021 at 12:38 am
      @ ‘ Ruby says:
      5 December, 2021 at 6:18 pm

      Hello Ruby… with regards the Alphabeties, I did a timeline that listed them by their letters and married them to their complaints


      Thanks Daisy.

      I got H figured out. I was going to go on and figure the others. I started with J and the story about the Zombie film and totally lost interest.

      H is the interesting one.

      ‘Because the case of Woman H appears to be one of the most clear-cut examples of perjury that you could ever identify. She claimed, in considerable and gory detail, that Alex Salmond tried to rape her in Bute House after a dinner.’

    252. Ruby says:

      Very high number of highly controversial issues connecting Sturgeon with Sex!!!

      Mark MacDonald fired for sending a text
      Alex Salmond trial
      Transexual issues
      Schools Sex Survey.

      One thing is for certain none of the above will help convince soft NOs to vote YES.

    253. Ruby says:

      I’ve tried to find out the purpose of this schools sex survey without success.

      All I can think is that they are looking for justification to lower the age of consent to 14.

      If the survey came back and it was discovered that a very high % of 14 year olds were having sex what then?

      Would the next survey ask 13 year olds and so on?

    254. Daisy Walker says:

      @ Brian Doonthetoon says:
      7 December, 2021 at 7:08 am

      Hi Daisy.

      I had a wee blether with you on Friday!

      Are you the tall gentleman, who was wearing a waste coat? And thanked me for the song and shook my hand?

    255. Brian Doonthetoon says:

      I was wearing a red gilet with loads of badges.

    256. Brian Doonthetoon says:

      Although I may have had my anorak on top of it, if I was on my way to or from a smoke outside.

    257. Daisy Walker says:

      Re the school pupil sex survey…

      Firstly, it is not anonymous, and if a child discloses they are at risk, the state have a statutory duty to step in and make investigation.

      To trick children/young people into a disclosure of this kind without forewarning them of this consequence is criminally and ethically wrong.

      Secondly, the information will/can be shared with 3rd party sector… this means charities… which means Stonewall and their ilk.

      Thirdly, it is automatically shared with the health board… which means it will be a data bundle that is sold off to private health insurance companies for future use. If we lose our NHS for the American private system, this information can and will be used to negate private health insurance just at the time they need it most.

      And lastly, one legitimate gathering of data similar to this, is under age pregnancies. This data is already collated. And has shown a significant drop year on year. It also highlights the correlation between underage pregnancy and poverty.

      Which begs the question, once again, what legitimate stated aim is this survey for.

      And one more thought, pupils will lie about their sexual experience. The acuracy of this data is likely to be about as reliable as a Boris Johnston statement.

    258. Dan says:

      @ Daisy

      With regard to our health data I’m minded of this from earlier in the year.

    259. Republicofscotland says:

      Dan @12.42pm.

      Yeah Dan read that awhile back, Sturgeon talks a good game about protecting our SNHS, but the reality is a different matter.

      Here its exposed that US healthcare companies already have their claws deep into the NHS, and a US trade deal will further cement that position.

    260. Republicofscotland says:

      “Very high number of highly controversial issues connecting Sturgeon with Sex!!!”


      This might interest you, Patrick Harvie accepting an award that he never sent back from, well you can make your own mind up.

    261. Republicofscotland says:

      “THE SNP have accused the Conservative government of “shafting” Scotland as it emerged the European Union has awarded Ireland almost €1 billion for compensation for Brexit, while Scotland has been given just £172 million from a UK fund set up to succeed a major Brussels scheme.”

      “The party said that ahead of the EU referendum in 2016, leading Brexiteers Boris Johnson and Michael Gove promised that the Scottish Government would be given £1.5bn in funding to spend on Scottish priorities when the UK left the EU.”

      This is what happens when you have a treacherous b*stard for an FM, Brexit will continue to do untold damage to Scotland, Sturgeon knows this, but instead of protecting Scots via an indyref back then, she swanned off down to London to march in a pro-EU demo to try and save England from itself, it was never going to work and she knew it.

      Now Scots are suffering from being part of this bucket of sewage union and she still refuses to go down any route to independence other than the preposterous S30 route.

    262. Ruby says:

      Dec 2
      It’s astonishing that Scotland is debating sex education in 2021. We are reverting into a bitter, small-minded wee country. Kids risk having their lives ruined without honest information and advice. Didn’t we quit this Mary Whitehouse moral majority dangerous bullshit years ago? ”

      It’s not about sex education it’s about a survey asking kids if they have had sex!

      Why would you need to know if kids have had sex before teaching them about sex?

    263. Always wondered if there was a connection between the collapse of the TTIP trade deal between EU and US and the push for UK to leave EU.

      Obama`s US thought access to the UK NHS was the jewel in the crown of the TTIP deal,

      think it was Trump that scuttled the deal.

    264. Ruby says:

      Replying to
      The mental part is teenagers will talk about and find a way to “educate” themselves (we don’t need details) – so I’d much rather a decent, constructive way to do it than, say for example.. the internet See-no-evil monkey’

      Rosa also missing the point.

      TBH Rosa teenagers are pretty bright and there really isn’t all that much to sex. A basic book explaining about sex, the reproductive system, safe sex etc should be all they need.

      Unless you think they should be getting lots of details perhaps reading the ‘Kama Sutra’ or ‘The Joys of Sex’.

      I’m wondering if Rosa & Neil are serious or they are just looking to deflect criticism from Sturgeon & this weird sex survey.

    265. robbo says:

      If I’m not mistaken humans have been having sex for 100’s of thousands of years. They don’t need some creep to ask them what a penis and vagina is and whether they’ve had anal or oral sex.

      Only creeps ask that.

      End of lesson SNP. Fuck off and don’t darken oor doorsteps again. .

    266. Dan says:

      @ robbo

      You are mistaken, that once justified and ancient position is no longer valid whilst NuScotland travels on the last train to Transcentral.
      #AgentsOfWoowoo will no doubt be along shortly to “stamp your ticket” for expressing such bigoted and hateful views.

    267. Breeks says:

      Daisy Walker says:
      7 December, 2021 at 12:26 pm

      And one more thought, pupils will lie about their sexual experience. The acuracy of this data is likely to be about as reliable as a Boris Johnston statement…

      I think that’s 100% correct Daisy, a lot of it will be unreliable, but the danger is it won’t matter. If the data gets in the wrong hands, it will still bring the child / adolescent to the attention of predatory pedophiles, and in some cases, it will also give the predator leverage over the individual, who may be coerced into doing things or else face the consequences of embarrassing revelations on social media.

      The mere existence of this intimate and explicit “survey” which allows individuals to be identified is putting vulnerable young people directly in danger of unknown potential.

      Just imagine being a kid, boy or girl, walking home from school, and a kerb crawling car follows you, reels down the window, knows your name, and also knows that you confessed to unlawful sex in the survey, and if you don’t get in the car they’re going to tell your parents or the police, or embarrass you in front of your friends. Sex with a minor is r(ape) etc, etc… How many 14 yr old kids are out there who couldn’t cope with that? What if they knew the driver?

      That’s bad enough if it is all fiction in the survey, but it might be even worse if it’s not, and the kid concerned actually is at risk, maybe is going out to pubs and clubs at a young age and mixing with the wrong people and having underage sex.

      This type of information getting into the wrong hands could be life changing, and utterly destroy the lives of people who become entrapped before they realise what’s happening.

      Some kids feel their lives are ruined when they send nudes of themselves and the images appear online. These young kids need safety while they’re growing up and making mistakes, definitely NOT having perverts, pedophiles and online groomers having access to their intimate details.

      This sex “survey” has the potential to throw the poor kids into murky deep waters beside some seriously nasty sharks. It’s a full-on baaaaad idea.

    268. robbo says:

      Aye Dan

      If MacKay and his trans cult want tae discuss it wae me am all ears! I’ll show him who the Mary Whitehouse of the movement is.

    269. wull says:

      Sturgeon already at it again, telling us how dangerous the new variant is when she, like the rest of us, has no scientific data on it at all and knows nothing about it. Already talking up more and more lovely lockdowns.

      All so predictable, that she would react – over-react – in this way. Has anybody died of the new variant yet? The new variant, that is. Not as far as I know – but I may be wrong, of course.

      Like I said, the scientific data on this thing is not yet in. How come the Very Unscientific Sturgeon knows so much about it already, then?

      Oh! I suppose there is an obvious answer. Because she IS just that – Very Unscientific. Without mentioning that she might have another agenda altogether. Something she DOES really care about. Like NOT having to run an Indyref2 after all.

      How very handy, and how very ‘political’ – using one thing for another thing altogether. To divert everyone altogether from the real purpose of why she (or whoever) is doing it.

      How very ‘political’…

      How Very Unscientific…

      On you go, hen. Give us the data, on which you based your statement. Show us how you reached the judgement you just spouted out. What? Not even one lousy chart to back it all up…! Not a fact in sight… Not even a pretendy one…?

      We understand your ‘conclusions’. Thanks for telling us! But where are your premises?

    270. Hatuey says:

      Wull, I’m not defending Sturgeon, quite the contrary, I think we are probably in trouble and again it’s down to government mismanagement, but you’re approaching this from the wrong direction. There’s plenty of data and evidence to support the view that omicron is a potentially huge problem for us.

      1) “South Africa hospital admissions doubling every day as Omicron cases soar”

      2) it’s not only more infectious than delta, it’s breaking down sterilising immunity barriers that delta struggled to break down — not only are vaccinated people being routinely infected, those who have natural immunity after already contracting the virus are being infected too.

      3) worryingly, there’s evidence to suggest it’s hitting the very young too. I believe around 10% of those in South African hospitals are under the age of 5 which is a dramatic increase vis a vis previous outbreaks there.

      Our NHS is already struggling, as I’m sure you’re aware. If this new strain leads to any sort of increase in hospital admissions, we are in big trouble.

      You can search Google and validate everything I’ve said above very well easily.

      We can expect to go into lockdown in January — I made that prediction about 2 weeks ago, along with a few others, and I’m more certain now. It would be more sensible to lockdown now, track and trace properly, and stop the virus re-entering the country until we are certain on the “disease immunity” question, but as before they have decided to prioritise the economy and Christmas over public health — they’re gambling, in other words.

      One last thing on morbidity. I’m sure you are aware of what is commonly referred to as the “death lag” when it comes to covid. You can Google that too. In short, there’s typically about a 5 to 6 week lag between infections and deaths. Omicron was only identified about 2 to 3 weeks ago. I’ll let you do the math and join the dots. We got caught out by this lag before during the first wave.

      I have nothing to gain by advising people to be extra careful until we know more.

      You c

    271. Hatuey says:

      …You can all work this stuff out for yourself, of course.

    272. Tannadice Boy says:

      @Hatuey 10:18pm

      Hi Hatuey
      I am probably the wrong person to talk about this pandemic. I have it all. Double jagged, booster, QR code, paper vaccination etc. LFT tests regularly. Did I do these actions for me, No, for other people Yes. My Dad aged 90 has multiple medical conditions and has done before Covid. In Ninewells Hospital just now. He is on permanent blood transfusion but has recently acquired Covid. Moved to a Covid ward. I will be raging if this goes down as a Covid death. He is auld with multiple cancers. I am glad I saw him on Saturday
      The way I want to remember him. But of course it will go down as a Covid death. Luckily my son is a doctor working in a NHS Scottish Hospital. The Public Inquiry is to come.

    273. Hatuey says:

      Sorry to hear all that, tannadice. He can overcome covid, though, even with the underlying health problems. Your son will know that and keep you right.

      I sincerely wish you all the best. It’s terrible all this.

    274. Tannadice Boy says:

      @Hatuey 11:56pm
      No worries I saw him at his feisty best on Saturday. People say to me who is your inspiration. Mendala, Obama etc. I would say somebody that has brought many great great grandchildren into the world. And he was an an Independence supporter. We braved the weather to show him his latest great granddaughter. Great stuff all round. Speak again soon.

    275. shug says:

      I do hope Douglass Ross has the courage to ask Nicola hoe often she has had anal sex in the last 12 months.

      I also wonder if he will give her and easy ride on the subject and why?????

      Answers on WhatsApp please

    276. shug says:

      I do hope Douglass Ross has the courage to ask Nicola how often she has had anal sex in the last 12 months.

      I also wonder if he will give her and easy ride on the subject and why?????

      Answers on WhatsApp please

    277. twathater says:

      @ Breeks and Daisy Walker 2 very fine comments exposing the reality that this perverts charter will mean to Scottish children , and breeks highlighting the very REAL abuse and blackmail those kids could be subjected to
      I commented similar earlier which went into moderation and has now disappeared obviously I triggered something

    278. Ian Brotherhood says:

      Hatuey –

      Congratulations H, you’ve ended up siding with Piers Morgan, Dr Hilary, Lorraine Kelly, Andrew Neil, and the cast of D-list celebrities now keeping the whole shitshow going.

    279. Hatuey says:

      I don’t really know who those people are, Ian. I certainly don’t rely on mainstream TV or celebrities for my understanding of the world. I’m probably the wrong guy to talk to about that sort of thing.

    280. Republicofscotland says:

      Not one Scottish Tory MP asked questions or stood up for the carbon capture project that was best placed, and best developed in Scotland’s North East it was rejected by this Tory government.

      Yet one or two of them said they did even though an FoI revealed that they didn’t even try to put the case for carbon capture at St Fergus to their own party’s minister on it.

      “That means that despite claims from Andrew Bowie (West Aberdeenshire and Kincardine MP) of being “disappointed” that the Scottish cluster did not get funding, neither he nor Douglas Ross, Alister Jack, David Duguid, John Lamont or David Mundell engaged in any talks with Kwarteng about the Scottish carbon capture project that could support more than 20,000 new jobs.”

      “Bowie, Ross (Moray MP) and Duguid (Banff and Buchan MP) represent constituencies in the North East that would have likely benefitted from the Scottish project.”

      I wonder how those Tory MPs constituents feel now that its been revealed that they did nothing to stand up for their constituencies and the plethora of jobs that are now gone.

    281. Republicofscotland says:

      As Sturgeon pretends via Angela Constance to do something meaningful on the terrible amount of drug deaths that’s plagued Scotland for years under Sturgeon’s tenure. It would appear that Sturgeon and Douglas Ross’s little poverty safari in Glasgow to take in what’s actually happening in the real world with regards to drugs abuse in Scotland has fallen on deaf ears at number ten.

      The PM and Priti Patel have snubbed Ross’s pilot drug consumptions room ideas which could save the lives of Scots, no surprise there then. The not so Priti Patel added that drug consumption rooms would see a range of crimes (law breaking) committed if they were opened, so that’s that then.

      For the spineless and gutless Sturgeon will never ever impose on or break a reserved matters rules, not even to save the lives of her own people. Drug abuse deaths are only heading one way and that’s up, Brexit and Sturgeon’s reluctance to remove us from this union for our own good, will only see drug deaths spiral upwards, because she’s too cowardly to put a complete package together which includes drug consumption rooms like they’ve been doing in Europe for almost thirty-years now.

      How many more (mainly) young people in Scotland need to die from drug abuse before Sturgeon acts, how many more parents will get that chap on the door to tell them the bad news, that their son or daughter has passed away.

    282. Republicofscotland says:

      Bdtt @9.32pm.

      Looks like the witchfinder generals office aka the COPFS, targeted and harassed Mr Clerkin, because he had the audacity to speak the truth.

      Sturgeon couldn’t lace Clerkin’s boots when it comes to pushing for Scottish independence. If he were FM we’d be independent by now.

    283. Republicofscotland says:

      AS Scotland’s drug deaths rates soar, Scotland also has the most folk in prisons per head of population in Western Europe, Scotland also has the highest death rates from alcohol abuse in the UK as well.

      I’m sure I read Alf Baird saying that these are symptoms that affects the colonised.

    284. James Che. says:

      3 out of 5 people in our family died within weeks of having the second dose vaccine, and a fourth one now seriously ill having to have her lungs drained regularly of old blood clots .non smoker.

      My mum whom did not have the vaccine, whom is 90 years old and has cancer is so far surviving the vaccinated.

      I think it is about time the vaccines carried the full list of ingredients contained therein for us to read, as other medicines do.
      And a complete list of side effects. As all other medications carry that we take.
      I also consider that these pharmaceuticals vaccine suppliers should not be exempt from being sued.

      Mortuaries and funeral directors are reporting a staggering rise of deaths from heart attacks and blood clot conditions,

      Not being able to take the vaccines myself due to other serious illness, and watching our family members pass away shortly after uptake of the vaccines, I am beginning to question the policy of one glove fits all.

      No one medicine is taken by all the population, because some medicine does not agree with some patients.
      I am not allowed medicine my mother is on, Or my partner, Or my brother, Or my neighbour.
      Perhaps these vaccines are causing side effect deaths.

    285. Ruby says:

      I still don’t know why the SG want to ask school children if they have had anal, oral or vagina sex.

      Was it a good idea to go from reading about the ‘schools sex survey’ to watching footage about Jeffrey Epstein?

      That is what is in the news which makes it difficult not to associate one with the other.

      The ‘schools sex survey’ would have been very useful for someone like Ghislaine.

    286. Dan says:

      @ Ros

      Re. Ongoing Scottish Drugs Deaths

      It’s Quiz Time!

      Who recently stated…

      We often have to act before the data is telling us there is a problem

      With regard to the actual figures. Should I presume the Scottish figures are still calculated based on whether the deceased just had drugs in their system at time of death, as opposed to the English figures which are based on the death being directly attributed to a specific drug?

    287. Ruby says:

      Republicofscotland says:
      8 December, 2021 at 10:33 am
      AS Scotland’s drug deaths rates soar, Scotland also has the most folk in prisons per head of population in Western Europe, Scotland also has the highest death rates from alcohol abuse in the UK as well.

      I’m sure I read Alf Baird saying that these are symptoms that affects the colonised.


      I have read that there are high rates of alcoholism & drug addiction amongst Native Americans & Australians.

      Scots probably have more in common with Native Americans & Australians than they do with other colonies.

      The question is why is the rate of drug & alcohol addiction in Scotland so high?

    288. James Che. says:

      Do you think vaccine drug deaths are on the rise? 😉

    289. James Che. says:

      The signs of being colonised.

      No you cannot leave the mutual treaty because you have to ask our permission as your master. Says England’s Westminster.

    290. Hatuey says:

      James, with all due respect, do you have any evidence to support your “argument”?

      It’s estimated that the vaccine has saved about 30,000 lives in Scotland.

    291. Dan says:

      @ James Che

      Hope you’re coping as best you can with the tough times you’re going through at the moment.

      Re. Vaccines
      Well we know it is recommended that some people with identified underlying health issues should not receive the vaccine.
      There have to be known and sound reasons for that to be the case.
      So there are surely questions to be asked about all the folk that have unidentified health issues who are getting the jags, and the effects the serums may have on them.

      With very restricted access to health services over the past couple of years one wonders how many folk have unidentified health issues.

    292. Ruby says:

      twathater says:
      8 December, 2021 at 3:03 am
      @ Breeks and Daisy Walker 2 very fine comments exposing the reality that this perverts charter will mean to Scottish children , and breeks highlighting the very REAL abuse and blackmail those kids could be subjected to
      I commented similar earlier which went into moderation and has now disappeared obviously I triggered something


      It can be interesting to try and find out which word/s caused your post to go into moderation.

      I discovered a post of mine went into moderation because of an eight letter word starting with s which means folk who come to stay.

      I took out the s word and re-posted and all was well. Had I not done that the post would be still in moderation!

      Finding the word that triggered moderation is your challenge for today should you choose to accept it. Good Luck. 🙂

      You would also have to find a way to let us know the word without posting the word. ie Give us a crossword type clue!

    293. James Che. says:

      No Barbados for Scotland.

      Why are we not surprised at the oppression and suppression of freedom for Scotland.

      The Scots never volunteered to enter into a treaty of union with England,

      When they objected to the union, and Rioted with protest in Scotland, England’s army were sent to Scotland to suppress the resistance by violent force.
      That is not a voluntary union. It was a colonial takeover by force and oppression.

      I want a vote on wether we should join the treaty of the union? ,
      seeing as the the actual Scots have never been asked that particular question.

    294. Ruby says:

      For the attention of all NO voters?

      How do you feel about the UK withdrawing from the ECHR and the Tories making decisions about your human rights?

      They’ll be a two tier system human rights for you and I and human rights for the elite.

    295. Breeks says:

      Ruby says:
      8 December, 2021 at 11:05 am

      The question is why is the rate of drug & alcohol addiction in Scotland so high?

      I suspect the thing they lack most in life is hope.

      When people get depressed, it’s often that they cannot change the circumstances they are in, and they can see no way out. I don’t know much about drugs, but I’d be willing to bet the same boxes are all being ticked.

      Wherever you look, online, on TV, in papers, they see homes they’ll never own, gardens they’ll never have, holidays they’ll never go on, cars they’ll never drive. It takes all your effort just to feed the power meter.

      You might have kids, and have to watch their underachievement and despondency begin to overshadow their lives just like it did yours.

      When you’ve no hope, no prospect of things getting better, I suspect escapism is a mighty temptation just to fool your body into having a laugh and put “grim” on hold a few hours.

      That’s how it starts. And addiction just needs a start, then the chemistry takes over.

      The Independent Scotland in my head would work towards giving Scotland’s people a stake in their own nation. An expectation that trying, and working will actually deliver a better life that’s actually rewarding and uplifting, and that means giving people something to do they can take pride in, so their kids can say “My dad built that”, or “Ma Mun worked on that”.

      I think Scotland has a big problem with too many obstacles put in the way of people.

      If you want to have an allotment, you should be able to.
      If you want to live in a rural area, you should be able to.
      If you’re a single person in need of accommodation, your needs should be as important as a family’s.
      If you want to buy land, it doesn’t need to be cheap, but it does need to be affordable.
      If you need a place to fix your car or experiment with wee business ideas, you should be able to, and maybe even get free advice and training.
      If people enjoy doing a thing, try to help with their capacity to do it. If they’re craft based or artistic people, start to appreciate that being happy is just as worthy as turning a profit.

      Make people relevant again, so that when you’re hitting a rough patch, the “Nation” wants to help getting you back on your feet.

      I like the German philosophy towards taxation. Yes it’s a burden, but the money is an investment that improves their country so they’re content to pay it. If you’re successful, you pay more tax because that’s right. It’s not a scam to con the system and line your pockets.

      I don’t know whether Scotland will develop in that way. If the current crop of MSP’s were running the show, we’d be in trouble. But Scotland needs Independence, because that’s the only way we’ll be able to hope things can be better.

    296. Robert Graham says:

      The government plant Mr Hatuey comments again

      It’s estimated the serum has saved zillions of life’s , Aye ok prove it it if , this concoction of Chemicals doesn’t stop you contracting the plague then how can anyone say it’s saved anyone

      How come all you double triple quadruple jabbed idiots still need to wear masks if yer fkn protective shield is so reliable , by all means it’s your choice but don’t make out the people who don’t want to join in this fkn Pantomime are the enemy, they threaten everyone’s lives

    297. Hatuey says:

      Robert, read carefully; no vaccine ever stopped people catching any disease 100% of the time.

      Not one. Not anywhere. Not ever.

      That includes measles and even HPV.

      The thing that matters with vaccines is that you stop people getting ill and dying. The covid vaccines have held up well in that respect, despite mutations. The numbers don’t lie.

      We are hoping the covid vaccines offer similar levels of protection against omicron, but we don’t know for sure that they will. We will find out soon enough.

      Why not read up on the things you discuss? Do you think your common sense or intuition is enough? Utterly baffling.

    298. Hatuey says:

      “I like the German philosophy towards taxation. Yes it’s a burden, but the money is an investment that improves their country so they’re content to pay it…”

      Makes you wonder why they have the biggest and most famous offshore banking country ever (Switzerland) right on their doorstep…

    299. Republicofscotland says:

      We all know that Westminster is a den of iniquity and that Scottish MP’s are just there to give it an air of democratic respectability even though Scottish MPs cannot change anything. In other words there’s no point in Scottish MPs going to Westminster.

      In the latest twist on the Westminster Christmas party, that Scottish MPs have yet again no influence over in any shape or fashion, Sturgeon has urged the PM to come clean, the hypocrisy from Sturgeon is breathtaking to say the least.

      Ian (Scotland won’t stand for it) Blackford, really played to the gallery today at PMQs calling for Johnson’s resignation (As if Johnson gives a monkey’s what Blackford or Scotland thinks or wants) I’d think more of Blackford if he called for Sturgeon’s resignation which would aid Scots far more than Johnson’s resignation.

    300. Republicofscotland says:

      “The question is why is the rate of drug & alcohol addiction in Scotland so high?”

      Ruby @11.05am.

      I’m sure Professor Alf Baird is far better placed than me to answer that question, but it does appear that colonised people suffer far greater from social ills, the Scottish Cringe is well known also.

    301. Republicofscotland says:

      “With regard to the actual figures. Should I presume the Scottish figures are still calculated based on whether the deceased just had drugs in their system at time of death, as opposed to the English figures which are based on the death being directly attributed to a specific drug?”


      I’m not sure about that one, however if how the Scottish government counted Covid deaths until August this year is anything to go by then yes is the answer.

    302. Andy Ellis says:

      @Hatuey 1.08 pm

      Not THAT baffling given some of the sentient spam who appear to have taken up residence here in recent months?

      As a wise man once said:

      “Formerly there were those who said: You believe things that are incomprehensible, inconsistent, impossible because we have commanded you to believe them; go then and do what is injust because we command it. Such people show admirable reasoning. Truly, whoever can make you believe absurdities can make you commit atrocities. If the God??given understanding of your mind does not resist a demand to believe what is impossible, then you will not resist a demand to do wrong to that God??given sense of justice in your heart. As soon as one faculty of your soul has been dominated, other faculties will follow as well. And from this derives all those crimes of religion which have overrun the world.”

      The progression from absolute faith in conspiracy theorising like anti vaxxers, to storming legislatures and parading around in a buffalo headdress is worryingly short.

      Note that the usual suspects in here have already branded you a government agent (followed doubtless by “not a real nationalist” “Sturgeonite stooge” “MI5/77th Brigade mole” or “English colonialist”). It’s the kind of othering which is the usual MO of the hard of thinking without any actual evidence or proof for their woo-woo: the kind of thing we used to ridicule yoons for doing back in the day, now being used by no marks purportedly on the same side.

    303. Republicofscotland says:

      “We are hoping the covid vaccines offer similar levels of protection against omicron, ”


      I’ve read that Omicron is more contagious but far less a potent strain, and that the only major concern so far is that it causes a build up of patients in hospitals.

      As for the Washington DC based US magazine the Atlantic, I’m dubious of its reporting (though I haven’t checked its Covid output) especially on subjects such as Syria, and the Western invasion and the backing of proxy fighters in the country by the Great Satan (USA) and its minions such as the UK to oust Assad.

    304. Republicofscotland says:

      Alex Salmond and a councillor pop round to an old fellas house bringing supplies for him with them, as his power is down.

      Pete Wishart decides to take the mickey out of them for doing so.

      What total prick Wishart is.

    305. Dorothy Devine says:

      RoS , may I endorse your character assessment – a prick and a pillock of the first water!

    306. Ruby says:

      Pete Wishart is really silly!

      He actually thinks he’s called ‘comfy slippers’ because he wears actual slippers!

    307. Ruby says:

      Pete Wishart claims ‘his coat cannot be on a shoogly peg’ because he doesn’t wear a coat!

    308. Ruby says:

      Pete Wishart says:

      suggesting he is ‘in hot water’ is ridiculous as any fool can see his clothes & slippers are totally dry!

    309. Ruby says:

      Pete Wishart denies
      ‘barking up the wrong tree’ claiming he is not a dog or a seal!

    310. robbo says:

      Remember when this twat Pishfart was begging fur votes a couple o elections ago, 6 votes or sumit?. Scared he’d have to cash in his pension early from WM .
      Fuck you scummy twat wishart. You’ve done feck all at WM for us.

    311. Republicofscotland says:

      Glasgow city council and the Scottish government fork out almost £12 million of Scottish taxpayers cash for a new tv/film production studios in Glasgow’s Kelvin Hall, only for the BBC to run it.

      Talk about enabling a colonisers propaganda unit.

    312. Hatuey says:

      “Note that the usual suspects in here have already branded you a government agent …”

      Even their accusations are nuts and nonsensical, Andy. What I’m accusing government of in regards to covid goes way beyond what they’re saying.

      All I ask is that people do some reading and provide evidence to support their claims. Without that evidence they’re really just talking about their feelings which is lovely on a certain level but I’m not interested.

    313. Hatuey says:

      RoS: “I’ve read that Omicron is more contagious but far less a potent strain, and that the only major concern so far is that it causes a build up of patients in hospitals.”

      If it causes a buildup of patients in hospitals, we are sleepwalking into a nightmare. As I said, hospitals are already struggling.

      I assume most people go to hospital when they’re pretty sick.

      We will know more soon enough. The claims Pfizer are making today, if accurate, could be the best news we have had in many months.

    314. twathater says:

      On the poison Scottish colonial broadcaster at 1 they announced there was to be a NEW broadcaster based in the Kelvin Hall which the SG and GCC were subsidising , THE broadcaster will be BBC , I am somewhat confused is this not the same broadcaster that has been undermining EVERYTHING that the SG does ,is this not the same broadcaster who has denigrated anything and everything the SNP has ever done ,is this not the same broadcaster that prof Robertson has had to set up a website to CORRECT THE LIES AND MISINFORMATION excreted by them on a DAILY basis
      Is this the same broadcaster that paypal pauls lot hate for their bile against Nicla

      First Nicla gave £3 million pounds to the hated MSM who vehemently oppose independence and show it publicly every day

      Now Nicla and the GCC who are selling off treasures because they are skint are subsidising a BBC outlet to enable more shite to be thrown at independence

      A wee question, does anyone think this latest GIFT BY NICLA will raise any awareness in the sycophants on wgd ,or prof Robertson’s sterling but wasted efforts to expose the bias and corruption of the beeb when his messiah is financing them

    315. Hatuey says:

      We are expecting Boris to announce mitigation measures (plan b) to avoid the nightmare in January that I’ve referred to as a prediction. Nice to see my analysis of around two weeks ago being validated but I suspect he won’t go far enough.

      The strategy since day one has been to protect the NHS and avoid its complete collapse; it hasn’t been to eradicate the virus, save lives, or even stop it spreading. “Suppression” was as close as we ever got along those lines.

    316. robertknight says:

      Twathater @5:32

      In answer to your oft repeated question…


      It IS the same BBC…

      However it IS NOT the same SNP.

      That’s what’s different!

      The SNP used to be pro-Indy, and was a threat to the British Establishment and the British State.

      Times change…

    317. Republicofscotland says:

      Hatuey @5.29pm.

      STV news at 6pm claiming that there are no hospitalisations in Scotland with regards to the Omicron variant.

    318. Republicofscotland says:

      Tory scapegoat resigns, you can bet your bottom dollar that she received a rollicking from Johnson and Co before she was compelled to jump.

    319. Hatuey says:

      “STV news at 6pm claiming that there are no hospitalisations in Scotland with regards to the Omicron variant.”

      I’m definitely a “glass half-full” type but I point blank refuse to believe you are stupid enough to take any comfort from the above.

    320. Haud says:

      Can someone clarify please. Is there aj outstanding legal case against the SG ? Or was I dreaming?

    321. Republicofscotland says:

      Hatuey @6.55pm.

      I’m not taking comfort from anything, I’m merely pointing out what STV news are reporting, which is inline with what I’ve read that Omicron is far more contagious but less potent.

    322. Fionan says:

      “It’s estimated that the vaccine has saved about 30,000 lives in Scotland.”

      Who did the estimating, who published the estimates and on what factual data are these estimates based? Or are they figures plucked from the sky like so many ‘official’ figures and estimates?

    323. Robert Hughes says:

      Fionan .

      Guess who stated with barely a concealed sense of superiority

      ” All I ask is that people do some reading and provide evidence to support their claims. ”

      In Hattyville official estimates are akin to divine revelation .

      Hatty is ” not interested in people’s feelings ” , he imagines that he functions from a purely rational perception – he * follows the science * – he’ll follow it all the way to hell .

      He also states with the unshakeable conviction of a true believer …” from day one it’s been about saving the NHS from being overwhelmed ( he likes that word ) ” – which is why in Germany State Police are entering businesses demanding to see papers – Germany , Australia has * internment camps * , Austria is locking down it’s entire nation and in our little neck of the Patholosphere Lucretzia Macbeth is * shielding * from her duty as – alleged -leader of the Scottish Independence Movement whilst preparing for another season in her award winning role as Saviour of the Nation

      All to prevent the NHS from being overwhelmed . WOW

    324. stuart mctavish says:


      By year’s end there’ll be about 600 less deaths attributed to covid this year than last, the average age of such a death having reduced from 82 to 79.

      The total will be in the order 6000 whilst the total deaths from all causes will be in the order 64,000 – similar to last year.

      On that basis alone I’d say that the claim that 30,000 Scottish lives have been saved by the vaccine must be bullshit – unless and to extent it is referring to anticipated lives saved over the next 50 years, in which case it might simply be seriously optimistic bullshit.

    325. Ruby says:

      “There is unprecedented interest in Scotland as a production hub and Kelvin Hall will be a welcome addition to the growing range of studio space being used by film and television productions’ Angus Robertson.

      Surely the interest in Scotland is in the scenery, architecture & generally filming outdoors.

      Why would film companies be interesting in coming to Glasgow to film indoors?

      Would it not have made more sense to have smaller studios in prime locations where film companies could take advantage of the scenery & also film indoors if necessary.

      The Kelvin Hall is massive! How much space do they need to film River City?

      Another SNP White Elephant?

      I wonder if Angus Robertson considered giving part of the £12million of taxpayers money to IndyLive. They make programmes people are interested in and don’t require a 10,500 sq. ft studio costing £12 million.

    326. Ian Brotherhood says:

      @Robert Hughes (8.08) –

      Hatuey has been using this place, to swim naked, for the past couple of years.

      The tide has been out for many months, and he’s been exposed, but doesn’t care that we can all see what he’s made of.

      The truth seems to be that he enjoys it.

      Ach well, ‘to each their own’ an aw that…


    327. Hatuey says:

      Stuart: “On that basis alone I’d say that the claim that 30,000 Scottish lives have been saved by the vaccine must be bullshit…”

      I haven’t seen their working but I can only imagine it was a relatively simple calculation based on 1) morbidity rates before vaccination, 2) morbidity rates after vaccination, and 3) the actual number of cases recorded.

      You seem to assume that 3 (the actual number of cases recorded) was the same in 2020 and 2021.

    328. Hatuey says:

      Mr Hughes, you can hardly accuse me of parroting the official line when just a week ago in an exchange with you I said that the official line on omicron was utter crap designed to placate people. I used the metaphor of bees being “smoked”.

      At the time everyone was saying omicron was quite harmless, only leading to “mild” symptoms, and I pointed out that you’d basically need to be nuts to take anything they said seriously on public health given their record.

      How things have changed. In the space of a week I’m being accused of being on their side and all my wild speculations are now accepted as truths.

      My distinction between “feelings” and facts is important but I don’t feel the need to explain or defend it. Those who don’t know the difference don’t need to know the difference.

    329. Hatuey says:

      Fionan: “More than 27,000 deaths in Scotland have been prevented by Covid vaccinations, according to World Health Organization (WHO) research.”

      As I said, I guess it’s based on case fatality rates and the number of cases, which is misleading since we would surely have had many fewer cases if it wasn’t for the vaccine itself.

      It’s complicated.

    330. stuart mctavish says:


      Took the data from National Records of Scotland and didn’t assume anything.

      I do concede that, in the absence of postmortems, some of the deaths attributed to covid (last year in particular) might have been done so under duress. In that case the true year on year figures may indeed be (even) more similar than those on record – but that would tend to render the claim even more ridiculous (and the timespan to render it coherent even more implausible)

    331. Ian Brotherhood says:

      @Hatuey (9.30) –

      Only an exceptionally lazy shill would dare post links from the BBC and/or WHO as evidence of anything.

      Nothing ‘complicated’ about that.

    332. Hatuey says:

      Fair enough, stuart, I get what you’re saying.

      I guess what they’re saying (the WHO, etc) is that the vaccines work. I think the numbers suggest they do or at least did. There seems to be people on here that want to make arguments about the vaccines without actually making an argument.

      My position hasn’t changed on the handling of this. It’s been a series of terrible decisions, one after the other, that prioritised economics and keeping Boris’s beaches open over lives. The one restraining factor in that has been fear of the NHS collapsing.

      Sturgeon and scotgov are as culpable as the decision-makers in Westminster, and “just following orders” isn’t an excuse. It’s been a disaster.

      And it’s possible we are watching them do it all again right now. The restrictions in place and announced today, masks, working from home, negative flow tests, etc., simply aren’t going to make enough of a difference.

      If we have learned anything with covid, it’s that it punishes you for casual mistakes. The lesson has been drummed into us; failure to act appropriately today, comes back to haunt you and costs you more in the long run.

    333. Hatuey says:

      Ian’s decided to take the plunge with something resembling a point…

      And he’s right, I’m lazily shilling… in support of the vaccines.

      The evidence on the efficacy of the vaccines is so clear-cut and obvious that I genuinely wouldn’t know where to start if someone was to pluck up the courage to argue otherwise — not that anybody seems willing to make that argument.

      Everybody’s invited, though.

    334. James Barr Gardner says:

      Folk have short memories……..

      Britain faces 75000 deaths in bird flu pandemic, Lords report … › world › jul › pandemic….

      Given that this information was wildly discussed why has the UK Government made such of pig’s arse of Covid ??????

    335. stuart mctavish says:


      I’d say there’s increasing evidence of nonsense involving seasonal flu and a placebo/trojan horse but there being no apparent appetite for perspective or prosecution, the burden of being ostracised, deplatformed, blacklisted and/or carrying the yoon/ extremist/ lunatic label, etc.simply for contradicting an increasingly bizarre narrative probably renders it extremely difficult for many who might otherwise make the effort.

      Instead its the innocent that suffer, Allegra Stratton taking the guilt projected on PM following yesterdays PMQs being a prime example.

      Notwithstanding that she was reduced to tears by such compassion based outrage, the outcome would be particularly repulsive if the no 10 staff (who the PM had hitherto been defending) had been among the first to be vaccinated, and thus perfectly entitled to party in accordance with the same logic inherent in the obscene vaccine passport rules – rules enthusiastically endorsed by many of the mps/ msps making the complaint against them in the first place.

      On other hand, and in defence of the adversarial system, an interesting gem from the debate/ pile on was a call from the floor to investigate other parties in number 10, perhaps especially one on 13 November (2020?) – which the speaker declined to be drawn into.

      Any such party on that date would obviously have been in advance of the first vaccine, and possibly coincidental with extremely important developments in the history of the United States so, whilst it could also be quite innocuous, its arguably somewhat intriguing that that particular allegation was deemed unworthy of further investigation.

    336. Hatuey says:

      Good morning, Stuart.

      I’ll leave the vaccine debate to one side and hope others will too. You seem to be suggesting it’s seasonal flu and the vaccine is a placebo but that’s okay…

      The attacks on Boris we have seen over the last 24 hours are entertaining but you can’t help but think powerful forces are at work and have decided his time is up. The MSM across the board have really thrown the boot in.

      We should be asking what’s going on and trying to explain this sudden shift in the MSM position. I find at hard to believe it has anything to do with the party in Downing Street.

      You hope this represents a shift and that smart and conscientious people have decided enough is enough but it’s more likely that crackpots on the right initiated all this because he’s threatening to close the beaches…

    337. Tannadice Boy says:

      @Hatuey 9:05am

      The debate about the vaccine is not an abstract argument that has no practical consequences. I am not in favour of mandatory vaccination. People are entitled to die for their beliefs and presently the unvaccinated are dying at a higher rate than the vaccinated. The knock on practical consequences include postponing other life saving operations. How many families have we seen on tv pleading with the public to get vaccinated when they have lost a love one?. It is a moral dilemma. On Boris, could it be revenge by the so called ‘Remainer Establishment’?
      If he has misled Parliament then it is a straight forward resignation for me.

    338. Republicofscotland says:

      As this Tory government tells Douglas Ross and Sturgeon that consumption rooms are a no go, Johnson looks like he’s going to double down on drug users with harsher punishments in the pipeline, some of the measures include removing driving licences and passports.

    339. Republicofscotland says:

      Whistleblower William McNeilly exposed to us that there’s an accident just waiting to happen at the nuclear submarine base at Coulport in Scotland. Now the contractors who maintain those obscene nuclear weapons at Faslane are going on strike beginning next week. Staff involved are employed by three separate private companies – AWE, Babcock Marine, and Lockheed Martin UK Strategic Systems.

    340. Ruby says:

      Tannadice Boy says:
      On Boris, could it be revenge by the so called ‘Remainer Establishment’?


      Good Morning Tannadice Boy how are you today?

      Could it be something to do with drugs? Someone not happy that sniffer dogs are to be brought into parliament etc?

      The party was a year ago so obviously it’s been something that’s been kept under wraps until now. This seems to be something that happens a lot within political parties.

      Not to the same scale as Jeffery Epstein but it does seem there are those who collect evidence of misdemeanours in order to blackmail/control others.

    341. Hatuey says:

      Tannadice, the vaccine skeptics don’t get into a real debate or discussion, they just sit calling you a shill, a plant, etc., from the sidelines and it gets quite tiring. If you rebut their views with reason, evidence, or science, they attack you for that too. I give up.

      On Boris, I agree Europe is possibly an issue and might explain it. Not sure of it’s remainers though, it’s as likely to be brexiteers on the right or both sides. The Irish question still isn’t resolved and at some point someone will need to sort it out but I don’t see how.

      I detected a change in the mood towards Boris a few weeks ago. If you assume the only solution to the Irish question is for the UK to join efta or something, it makes sense that they’d need to get rid of him. It’s possible he wants out himself.

      Crazy times. Now we have an outbreak of bird flu. I hope nobody finds it upsetting to talk about that and to assume it’s real.

    342. James says:

      Oh look – “I’m done with this site” Ellis is back.

    343. Andy Ellis says:

      @Tannadice Boy 10.02 am

      It could be that Boris is caught in a perfect storm: the Remainer establishment will relish knifing him in the front (to use the charming Jess Philips words on Corbyn in 2015), while the brexiteer ranters and covidiots who would be intensely relaxed if the NHS was overwhelmed as long as they can go for a pint in Weatherspoons will happily be stabbing him in the back.

      The question is which faction would win, and who will they replace him with? Sunak? Truss?! Hard to see that any of the likely candidates would make much of a difference, but historically the Tories have often been pretty brutal when replacing those in charge, as the Leaderene Thatcher found out! A lot of those new Tory MPs in former Labour red wall seats will be feeling a bit anxious at the prospect of losing their seats at the next GE.

      If the government upsets all the little Englanders that voted for BoJo, not just in spite of the fact he was a bit of a pillock, but because they actually liked what he represented and thought electing a “disrupter” would be one in the eye for the establishment and forward their xenophobic world view, then Johnson could find the men in grey suits paying him a visit.

      The trouble is the opposition is still pants, so it’s not as if there’s an appealing alternative on offer either. May you live in interesting times as the old Chinese curse says…!

    344. Ruby says:

      Does it matter who replaces Boris or Sturgeon.

      It seems to me they are just puppets having their strings pulled by whoever controls the media.

    345. Hatuey says:

      There’s implications for Sturgeon, Ruby, so yes, it matters or it might matter.

      If these events represent a move by sensible people who believe Boris’s approach to coronavirus has been nothing short of a crime against humanity, we’ve got to assume Sturgeon who eagerly went along with that approach will also come under pressure.

      Herd immunity was insane.

      Leaving airports open and letting delta and omicron in was insane.

      Opening everything up after the first lockdown, allowing it to spread again, and then having to lock us all down for months was insane.

      Sturgeon more or less unquestioningly went along with it all.

    346. Tannadice Boy says:

      @Ruby 10:21am
      Good morning Ruby. I am good thanks. There seems to a pandemic of misdemeanours amongst our politicians. There needs to be some integrity and honour in public office so if Boris misled Parliament he has to go. Just about to watch FMQs. Pick up the debate later.

    347. James Che. says:

      Tannadice boy.

      Stats on covid vaccines.
      We have them in my family this year.
      Over 52 % of my family are vaccinated,
      They are the ones that have died since September 2021.

      And another vaccinated family member now seriously ill.

      I have enough personal up close statistics FROM REAL LIFE not some dodgy data of propaganda to suit the narrative.

      And NON, ( repeat ) NON of the unvaccinated have died of covid.

      The proof is we hold the death certificates.
      Hatuey you are beginning to sound like a plant for vaccines even if you are not one.

    348. Ruby says:

      Tannadice Boy says:
      Just about to watch FMQs.

      You’re a good man! Watching FMQs so the rest of us don’t have to.

      With regards to politicians and their ‘misdemeanours’ I don’t care if a politician has a fight with his girlfriend, flirts with someone in a bar, has an affair, sends someone a text, has anal, oral, vagina or boob sex (they missed that one from the survey) I am more concerned with the seriously dodgy decisions they make especially ones that involve huge amounts of money (taxpayers money or money from donors)

      In the case of the SNP money conned from supporters. Still no news about the police investigation into the SNP funds or the leak to the Daily Record.

    349. Andy Ellis says:

      @Hatuey 11.13 am

      An Icelandic friend pointed out to me recently that they’d had 35 Covid deaths there, which is 0.0095% of their 360,000 population. It set me thinking how other countries death rates compared with ours and other countries which are seen as having performed better.

      England has had 127,000 deaths, which is 0.2269% of its 55.98 million population. To put it in stark terms, if you applied the English death rates to other countries which performed better, the differential in number of deaths would be:

      Iceland: 35 recorded. 832 on English death rate.
      Scotland: 9672 recorded (0.1774% of 5.45M). 12,364 on English death rate.
      New Zealand: 44 recorded (0.0008% of 5.08M). 11, 533 on English death rate.
      Australia: 2072 recorded (0.0080% of 25.69M). 58, 282 on English death rate.

      So for all the covidiots out there, if the Scottish government had performed as well as the Kiwi government, 47 Scots would have died of Covid rather than 9,672.

      If the English % had been the same as New Zealand’s, 484 would have died rather than 127,000.

    350. Ruby says:

      Boris’s demise might be about the EU might be about drugs but it might be that Boris has decided that it would be a nice Christmas gesture to grant Scotland a section 30!

    351. James Che. says:

      The loss of four vaccinated family members is hard enough to accept,
      Without the rest of the vaccinated self opinionated people on here spouting the vaccines are a cure all.

      You spread the virus the same as anyone else.
      Once you pass it on, you pass it on, and my family have enough prove that those whom you pass it on too are not protected with an elixir vaccine, they died.
      There should be no talk of locking people into camps or a two tier society up like they did in historic Germany during world war 2., whereby those whom act mentally ill think they are vaccinated gods.

    352. Rev. Stuart Campbell says:

      “And he’s right, I’m lazily shilling… in support of the vaccines.

      The evidence on the efficacy of the vaccines is so clear-cut and obvious that I genuinely wouldn’t know where to start if someone was to pluck up the courage to argue otherwise — not that anybody seems willing to make that argument.”

      There seems no credible doubt that the vaccines reduce what was already a low mortality rate significantly. They do absolutely nothing to inhibit transmission, though, which is why vaccine passports are such an utterly retarded idea, and when the government is pushing such manifest stupidity it’s easy to see why people are willing to be sceptical about their other claims.

    353. Ruby says:

      I have no doubt that Epstein & Maxwell were invited to Balmoral by the Duke of York however I have some doubts about this photo of the Queen with a huge plate of cauliflower cheese or is it tripe and onions on her lap.

      For those of you wondering what I meant by ‘boob sex’ see photo of Maxwell. Normally it’s not a foot that’s involved
      although there are people who do have a foot fetish. Prince Andrew & Sarah Ferguson for example.

    354. Breeks says:

      Shock alert! I agree with Sturgeon.

      We need to get rid of this rotten and corrupt Westminster Government, although I would include her own corrupt government and subservient Scottish “Parliament” and it’s colonial Scotland Act small ‘c’ constitution as an intrinsic part of the rotten regime we badly need to get rid of.

      Scotland needs an honourable government which respects the Constitutional Sovereignty of the Scottish people, and Holyrood doesn’t meet those criteria.

    355. Chas says:

      I watched the ‘chimney’ at Longannet coming down this morning. The button to detonate the explosives was pressed by Mrs Murrell. My wife pointed out that a serious error occurred.
      Mrs Murrell was outside of the structure, instead of inside, when the deed was done!

    356. Ruby says:

      Chas says:
      9 December, 2021 at 2:40 pm
      I watched the ‘chimney’ at Longannet coming down this morning. The button to detonate the explosives was pressed by Mrs Murrell. My wife pointed out that a serious error occurred.
      Mrs Murrell was outside of the structure, instead of inside, when the deed was done!


      I take it your wife doesn’t like Nicola Sturgeon much Chas!

      Neither do I.

      As a matter of fact I like Boris Johnson more than Nicola Sturgeon.

      I’m talking on a personal level if you know what I mean. Although the New SNP’s politics are beginning to look pretty nasty!

      Sure Boris is a buffoon but he’s likeable. Sure if he had tried to stitch up David Cameron and have him sent to jail I would have a totally different opinion.

      Boris’s saving grace could be his likeability. Tories need to be careful they don’t replace him with someone people might really hate.

    357. Chas says:


      I can’t stand Mrs Murrell either.
      Bunter puts on an act but he is ruthless as they come when protecting his own back. Anything and anybody will be sacrificed, as we have seen and will continue to see.
      Not a lot to choose between the Supreme Leader and Bunter in my eyes. Not to be trusted.

    358. Hatuey says:

      Excellent comment that, Andy. We haven’t done much better than England when you factor in our population density. Shocking.

    359. Ruby says:

      I’m a bit worried about Tannadice Boy he hasn’t returned from FMQ.

      Perhaps he’s decided he deserves a treat after listening to all that blah blah blah. He’s perhaps sitting in his local coffee shop having a cappuccino and a big slice or chocolate cake. Enjoy!

      Nicola is no telling us how many partners she had sex with last week or if she had anal, oral, vagina or boob sex.

      If I were to guess I would say Nicola Sturgeon has never had any sort of sex not even a love bite.

      If you are confused about ‘vagina sex’ I’m guessing it’s what is colloquially known as shagging.

      The other types of sex do also have more common names but I expect everyone (although I’m not sure about teenagers) are aware of what they mean.

    360. Tannadice Boy says:

      @Hatuey 10:29pm
      I agree the Irish question urgently needs addressed. On a recent visit to Larne I was taken aback by the level of hostility to the current patch up on offer. Being on the ground changes your perspective. Speaking to some locals they pointed to the ferry and said, “Where the EU meets Brexit”. An unsustainable situation. Solutions are unpalatable as well. Further modifications to the current agreement?, the UK joining EFTA?, an Irish Reunification Referendum? you name it and it a hazardous path. Over to you Lord Frost.

    361. Hatuey says:

      Third time lucky…

      Rev. Stuart Campbell, the passports make sense if you assume they were intended to encourage/compel people to get vaccinated. And I would guess just the threat of bringing in passports achieved that.

      The negative lateral flow test idea, as an alternative, is even more stupid since you can just drip water on it or something…

      In pointing out that the vaccines work, I’m not supporting the government tho. On the whole this pandemic couldn’t have been handled more badly.

      Anyway, just been for a PCR test and seem to have symptoms… people I spent time with on Friday seem to have given me my Christmas present early this year.

      I’m feeling sorta historical…


    362. Hatuey says:

      Tannadice, the Northern Irish voted for Brexit though, didn’t they?

    363. James Che. says:

      The original phrase from Downing Street over covid was three weeks to help the nhs at the beginning of 2020,
      Then it was vaccinations of the elderly and vulnerable and every one can go back to normal.
      Then the vaccination of the next age group and so on.
      Until we reach primary school age children
      And yet here were are with the covid passports.
      Talking about closing down Christmas or the new year.

      The goal posts are forever shifting to become more draconian by our governments against the people’s freedoms across the world. All following the same procedures.
      From lockdowns to passports and mandatory vaccines.

      It was only a matter of time before BJ did the same as Sturgeon or sturgeon the same as BJ.

      It seems that both have made some secret pact out of the limelight over borders, passports, Scottish independence, free speech, ignoring the people whom voted them in, rights of protests while surrounding themselves and government buildings with barriers.

      The Fake pretend attacks on The Snp by Tories is no different of the fake attacks by the snp on the Tories .

      They are all singing from same hynm sheet, overturning an taken the rights away from ordinary people by disrupting society and creating parliaments as sovereign over and above people with human rights,
      This last year especially i I noted BJ and NS tossing the political ball back and fro between Scotland and England with wins on both sides and no losses to either parliament or government.

      The losers are you and I.
      Covid, gender identity, Scottish independence, and Brexit, are all now political weapons used to control food, transport, climate change, employment, the economy, NHS, Free Travel. Free speech, and the right to protest against totalitarian governments.
      It is a slippery road that Britain is sliding down,
      and NS has apparently agreed with Westminster behind closed door meetings that destructure and build back better for the wealthy and politicians is a worthwhile goal.
      The false enemies politic between the two of them seems to be well rehearsed and include the MSM.
      One wonders wether the manifestly stupid passport idea is really so stupid if you are a politician sitting in government itching to have ultimate control over people and the old British way of life.
      While are seeking to build back a better life for a politician or landed gentry,

    364. Ruby says:

      Hatuey says:
      9 December, 2021 at 3:47 pm
      Tannadice, the Northern Irish voted for Brexit though, didn’t they?


      You look after yourself Hatuey.

    365. Republicofscotland says:

      Ruby @2.08pm.

      Ruby this link might interest you, its a bit more revealing that the usual mainstream media, and Chris Hedges is pretty good on matters like this, as is Chomsky, Pilger, Murray, Johnstone, Curtis etc.

    366. Republicofscotland says:

      “NICOLA Sturgeon has described Boris Johnson as “corrupt” and said he should stand down as Prime Minister.”

      I’ve no doubt that he is, but knowing what we know about Sturgeon as well, she should follow him out the door.

      The above response from Sturgeon was in my opinion from a staged question by Green MSP Gillian Mackay.

      Sturgeon follow through on the question she said adding that the principles and the values of openness, integrity and transparency matter to all of us who care about democracy in this country.

      None of which our own FM possess either.

    367. Ruby says:

      Republicofscotland says:
      9 December, 2021 at 3:52 pm
      Ruby @2.08pm.

      Ruby this link might interest you


      Thank you. Looks interesting.

    368. Republicofscotland says:

      Top QC in Scotland found dead at 45 years of age, Police probe death.

      Top QC Paul McBride died quite young as well in 2012 on a trip to Lahore with Anas Sarwar.

    369. Tannadice Boy says:

      @Hatuey 3:47pm
      The Northern Irish voted 55% to remain. Very much and East vs West split within the region. Take care

    370. Hatuey says:

      Ah okay, tannadice, so Brexit is a nightmare for them… not of their choosing.

      I’m 2 or 3 days into the covid process, if that’s what it is. Seems to going into the lungs now… I have all these dramatic symptoms, fever, coughing, you name it, and my eyeballs feel like they’re over-heating which is a new one, but I feel strangely fine.

      Some news just in “Scotland’s children’s commissioner calls for sex census for kids to be paused”

      Sturgeon won’t like that…

    371. Ian Brotherhood says:

      @Hatuey –

      So, there you are, looking like a reject from an early Schwarzenneger film SFX dept, and you still expect folk to believe that everything is tickety-boo with the ‘vaccines’, boosters etc?

      Quick recap, for you and anyone else who’s somehow managed to avoid every link posted here over the past year:

      PCR tests are not reliable. At all. The inventor, Nobel Prize-winner Kary Mullis, condemned Fauci as a charlatan and repeatedly challenged him to open debate on the issue. (Unfortunately, that won’t ever happen because Mullis is now dead.)

      Masks don’t work. And even if they did, being vaccinated doesn’t prevent you catching or transmitting the fekkin thing.

      No long-term testing on *ANY* ‘vaccine’ has been completed. Despite this, UK Govt advice, via the NHS, assures pregnant women (as well as the rest of us) that there is no significant risk.

      The definition of ‘vaccinated’ is so fluid that it has become meaningless. Currently, you need two vaccines AND a booster to qualify for that particular status. Even after the booster, 14 days must elapse before you’re officially ‘vaccinated’. Therefore, anyone in hospital, for any reason, who doesn’t tick all the boxes is, technically, ‘unvaccinated’. So, ‘90% of covid patients occupying hospital beds are unvaccinated’ is a lie, and one which is repeated on MSM by people like Dr. Hilary, ably assisted by Lorraine Kelly, with no corrections/retractions forthcoming.

      The MHRA, which is supposed to monitor and regulate all medicines in the UK, has never published any data on which of the adverse reactions reported via the ‘Yellow Card’ system have been caused by the vaccines as opposed to the virus. That’s their job, but they haven’t done it.

      Do you get it Hatuey?

      Long-term testing has not been done, and the official government body whose job is it to gather/publish data on adverse reactions is not doing so.

      Hope your eyeballs cool down.


    372. Republicofscotland says:

      Well they blew up Longannet’s 600ft chimney today, and it reminded of the demolition of Ravenscraig in Motherwell.

      Longannet Power Station never stood a chance, as the fee to connect to the power grid for the plant was in the ten of millions of pounds, where as power station South of the border paid far less or even nothing to connect, the game was rigged against the Scottish based power station.

      I’ve read that this Tory government are in the process of having undersea cables laid from I think its the Netherlands, or somewhere in Europe, to run to just over the border in Northern England, and it will connect to the grid for free to supply England with power.

      One could say that its possible that this Tory government wants to cut Scotland out from selling power South of the border altogether. If that’s the case, I still don’t see Scots benefitting from the surplus at a cheaper price, one third of Scots are already in fuel poverty, and April’s huge power price hike that will shock many folk, will see even more Scots fall into fuel poverty.

      But hey Sturgeon is giving families an extra tenner for kids,(under six years of age) which starts in April, its better than nothing but hopelessly short in reality. Sturgeon’s government dipped their toes into the energy market with the firm OURPOWER, and it went bust, that was years ago, and the cost of energy for Scots who live in a country teeming with energy sources just keeps on rising.

      Finance secretary Katie Forbes received a round of applause today in the Holyrood chamber, when she claimed her budget will help lift kids out of poverty, we’ve heard all this before, the reality is that the huge increase in power will only drag more families with kids deeper into poverty, not to mention the price rises of everyday goods and food items, due to Brexit, and Covid.

      I doubt that any of our Scottish politicians will need to decide whether to heat or to eat with their children in mind, unlike many, many Scots will have to do this Winter and even more so after next April’s huge rise in power prices. being part of the rancid union is taking its toll, I blame Sturgeon for that, she chose to keep us tied to this union and we are paying a heavy price for it and will continue to do so.

    373. Shug says:

      Wonder why wee Douglas let Nicola of and not ask her questions about her sex life as per the school survey

      Easy pop

      Why do the unionists go easy on her?????

    374. Republicofscotland says:

      Dan @6.32pm.

      Craig Murray is just out of prison and the witchfinder generals office instructs its foot soldiers to interview him, to find a mole who revealed the truth.

      The Stasi party’s (SNP) chief wants to hunt down the truth teller by the looks of things.

    375. Ruby says:

      Shug says:
      9 December, 2021 at 7:02 pm
      Wonder why wee Douglas let Nicola of and not ask her questions about her sex life as per the school survey

      Do you think Sturgeon has a sex life?

      The question that need to be answered are:

      1. Why do the SG want to know if school children are having anal, oral & vaginal sex?

      2. What answers will trigger intervention?

      Sturgeon says it won’t happen often but how does she know in advance.

      Has Sturgeon always refused accept that she may have gotten things wrong?

    376. Ruby says:

      Dan says:
      9 December, 2021 at 6:32 pm
      For those not on twitter.


      Why Craig?

      Very strange!

      Now we know that Murrell did definitely send the text.

      Craig says there is no police investigation into the D. Record leak is this correct.

    377. Ruby says:

      All this talk of oral sex has reminded me of a joke Donald Sutherland told a few years back on one of the late night talk shows.

      “One sperm to another.
      When will we reach the womb?
      Keep swimming we are still in the oesophagus.”

    378. Ruby says:

      Saturday September 19 2020, 12.01am, The Times

    379. PacMan says:

      Just to add to what the Rev said about Covid vaccines not stopping transmissions, the Scottish Government are all but saying this in their health adverts where they advise that even people who are fully vaccinated should take the same precautions as those who are unvaccinated to stop the virus from spreading.

      All these medical experts will try to blind you with science but with a straight yes/no answer as to whether the vaccine stops transmission, they will at the end have to say no.

      We have to accept that throughout this year we were in dire straits and there needed at times to shall we say, a little white lies need to be said for the greater good like for instance needing Covid passports to encourage vaccination in groups that were not willing to have them.

      My personal opinion is that we need to be compliant again for the next couple of months but after that we need to be more critical of the whole Covid narrative that is being peddled as we simply can’t live in constant fear of the virus and need to live with it.

    380. John Main says:

      @Hatuey – 9 December, 2021 at 11:13 am

      “Leaving airports open and letting delta and omicron in was insane.”

      Sorry to hear you have a touch of the Chinese Flu Hatuey, but if you are well enough to post here, then you are well enough to have the shit ripped out of you when you post mince.

      Maybes we should also have “closed the borders” to keep Storm Arwen out. We would have had about the same chance of success with that policy too.

      Anyways, best wishes for a speedy recovery.

    381. Hatuey says:

      Ian: “Hope your eyeballs cool down…”

      Nobody who finishes a tirade with well wishes like that could ever be considered anything but a dear friend.

      Of course, even if everything you said was true, about testing, reporting, the trials, etc., we are left staring with heated eyeballs at the incontrovertible truth;

      That link will take you to around 14 of the most up-to-date studies and reports on the efficacy of the vaccines across all age groups in the UK. You don’t need to be a scientist to read the findings which in most of them will be very near the beginning or top.

      Prepare to be astonished. Nobody anywhere could have hoped for success on that scale, across all age groups, in terms of dramatically reducing deaths and the need for hospital treatment. I’ve never claimed the vaccines stop you catching and spreading covid — they just don’t.

      On adverse side effects, I’m more than sure it happens — I’ve met people who have experienced that. Serious problems too. But I’ve met at least 100 times more who have lost family members to covid. It’s grim stuff and it haunts you.

      Whatever way you cut all that, Scotland’s response to covid was imposed on us (with Nicola serving Westminster very well in that regard) and the sooner we get out of this fucked up Union and take control of stuff like this for ourselves, the better.

    382. Tannadice Boy says:

      @Hatuey 8:39pm
      Good post from an Arnold Schwarzenegger wannabe. Which is why I am looking forward to the Public Inquiry. And it should be broadcast live. No grandstanding just the facts. And there are aspects of the pandemic not covered by commentators on this blog. Wait and see what they are. Anyway it’s half time and I have been supporting both Scottish teams in Europe tonight. Off I go to watch the second half. Stay well Hatuey.

    383. Andy Ellis says:

      @ John Main 8.34 pm

      “Maybes we should also have “closed the borders” to keep Storm Arwen out. We would have had about the same chance of success with that policy too.”

      So what explains the differential rates of deaths per million inhabitants in the countries like Iceland, NZ, Australia then?

      Are they more naturally immune?

    384. Dan says:

      Andy Ellis says: at 9:10 pm

      So what explains the differential rates of deaths per million inhabitants in the countries like Iceland, NZ, Australia then?

      Are they more naturally immune?

      Comparing the “performance” of countries is a bit flawed as so many different factors come into play.
      The UK isn’t exactly filled with uber healthy virus vigilant folk.
      EG. Poverty, housing, crap diet, lack of sunlight vit D etc, along with cultural traditions like getting shit faced in Wetherspoons will all play a part in our placing on the death league table.

    385. Ian Brotherhood says:

      @Hatuey –

      You know how to read a graph.

      So, what do you make of this?

    386. Andy Ellis says:

      @Dan 9.21 pm

      You’re honestly saying a prediliction for Buckie and salad dodging explains why there have been 44 deaths in NZ and almost 10,000 here?

    387. John Main says:

      @Andy Ellis – 9 December, 2021 at 12:42 pm

      “England has had 127,000 deaths, which is 0.2269% of its 55.98 million population.”

      I am not going to question Andy’s numbers, but I will point out (yet again) the curious anomaly common to many axe grinders where Covid deaths are totalled indefinitely.

      Unlike most other diseases, where deaths are presented per year.

      Let the axe grinders continue with this, and inevitably they will one day be saying that Covid deaths have exceeded 10 million and isn’t it a disgrace.

      But I digress. It is easy enough to find the yearly mortality figures for England & Wales, going back to before the war. The crude mortality rate per 100,000 population for the year 2020 was higher than for every preceding year back to 2004. It was lower than for 2003 and for every year prior to that back to 1990.

      If we take 2019, 530,841 people died from all causes. For 2020, the figure was 608,002.

      It is, I think, reasonable to claim that Covid was responsible for the jump in deaths. In round numbers, 531,000 people died in 2019, and an extra 77,000 people died in 2021 from Covid, with Covid, or as a result of Covid. An increase of 14.5%

      It is all too easy to become fixated on Covid-related deaths, but when shown in the context of how many people die every year from anything but Covid, the numbers don’t look anything like as alarming.

      Guess I must be one of those Covidiots Andy likes to rail against. But TBH, using Andy’s figures, if somebody tells me tomorrow that my chances of dying from Covid in 2022 are 0.2269%, I won’t be losing too much sleep. My chances of dying from any of a number of other things are much higher than that.

      And of course, Andy’s figures are exaggerated anyway, because he doesn’t break his total into deaths per year.

    388. Dan says:

      @ Andy at 9.32pm

      No, I would have thought a non-roaster grade individual would have had the intellect to read the words I actually stated… “…as so many different factors come into play.
      And I didn’t even include the different virus suppressing (or virus spreading) societal measures all those countries’ governments have implemented at various stages since the pandemic started.
      Plus there’s the question as to how a covid death is recorded in different places. Ya ken, like the different Scottish / English Drug death counting methods.
      An acquaintance lost his elderly uncle recently to covid, the fact the poor guy was already pretty much fucked with Asbestosis apparently wasn’t a factor in the cause of death…

    389. John Main says:

      @Andy Ellis – 9 December, 2021 at 9:10 pm

      “So what explains the differential rates of deaths per million inhabitants in the countries like Iceland, NZ, Australia then?

      Are they more naturally immune?”

      Low population densities.

      Higher living standards.

      Less ethnic diversity.

      Geographical isolation.

      TBH, I don’t consider the NZ and Australia figures as of much relevance, simply because they have postponed the problem, not avoided it. Ask me again in 10 years.

      Iceland is of interest though. But hardly comparing like-for-like when you realise its total population is less than that of Edinburgh.

    390. Tannadice Boy says:

      @Dan 9:46pm
      Which is why the Public Inquiry needs to get away from Covid theatre and drill down on the facts. We haven’t heard from the medical practitioners apart from superficial broadcasting reports. The voice that hasn’t been heard. We have to learn from this and I say that from their apolitical perspective.

    391. Hatuey says:

      Ian, the graph has very limited relevance to the sort of arguments you’ve been making and if I was you and wanted to continue making those arguments, I would avoid that graph. I don’t know why you would though.

      I guess the thing that is of key interest to you is the seemingly difficult-to-explain high number of deaths among vaccinated people as compared to the unvaccinated. On the face of it that confounds everything we have heard and said about vaccine efficacy.

      Not so fast though…

      Over 70% of the population is vaccinated (two doses). Vaccine efficacy on average is about 92% in terms of preventing death. That means a lot of people are still going to die, despite being vaccinated, and your graph reflects that.

      The point I’m making would be clearer if you looked at raw numbers and Case Fatality Rates. The big thing your graph leaves out is infection rates and without that you can’t really make one single meaningful point about efficacy.

      The studies I linked to earlier give you the real data, not projections or speculation, and are based on actual real cases.

      In short, and the data are crystal clear on this, for every full vaccinated person that dies, about 11 unvaccinated people will die. That’s the ratio and your graph would reflect that if it included infection rates for each of cohort.

    392. Ian Brotherhood says:

      @Hatuey (10.14) –

      My point, as previously explained, is that the definition of ‘vaccinated’ is mercurial – if correction is made to allow for deliberate misrepresentation (which cannot be established because MHRA refuses to release the relevant data) then the % of ‘fully vaccinated’ (i.e. two doses +/- booster) increases beyond any reliable measure.

      Therefore, your ’11 unvaccinated deaths for every 1 vaccinated’ is total cobblers, and you know it.

    393. Tannadice Boy says:

      @Hatuey 10:14pm
      That is in accordance with what my son has been saying. And he is right in the middle of this difficult situation. The facts, the facts bring on the Public Inquiry.

    394. Hatuey says:

      Ian, I’m not looking to argue or spin anything. I defined vaccinated as two doses in brackets and all of the studies I linked to use that same definition.

      It’s a big disappointment that we need to give boosters, we all wish it was otherwise, but I can’t help but look at the efficacy levels and see the bright side. Also, if the definition of “vaccinated” is subject to change, the disease itself with its mutations is too; you are aware that it’s the same with flu and the vaccine changes every year — does that mean the flu jab is a fraud or ineffective?

      In terms of side effects, nobody as far as I know is hiding the truth. Two of my daughter’s friends out of about 10 have had adverse effects, with one needing to go into hospital. The NHS gives out leaflets advising people to get in touch if they have any of the problems listed.

      I don’t really agree with kids being vaccinated, as I have said. There’s no real case for it.

      Anyway, my eyes have cooled. John Campbell is suggesting this whole nightmare could be over soon if omicron turns out to be much milder. I don’t understand the mechanics of that but he seems to know what he’s talking about.

    395. Hatuey says:

      John Main: “if somebody tells me tomorrow that my chances of dying from Covid in 2022 are 0.2269%, I won’t be losing too much sleep.”

      That’s one way of looking at it. Another way of looking at it might involve looking at fatality rates amongst those that are infected, rather than the population as a whole.

      Basically in Scotland the CFR is around 1.33%.

      That basically means around 1 in 75 who catch coronavirus will die.

      Sleep well.

    396. Hatuey says:

      Tannadice, I just hope the inquiry won’t be another fix.

    397. Ian Brotherhood says:

      ‘If liberty means anything at all it means the right to tell people what they do not want to hear.’

      You know that line, Hatuey, don’t you?

      Of course you do. Pure Orwell, innit? It’s one of those lines that you see printed on mugs, t-shirts etc. Everyone knows it.

      But how many folk know where it appeared originally?

      It’s from an essay called ‘The Freedom of the Press’, which he wrote as the introduction to Animal Farm.

      As things turned out, it wasn’t published as the introduction to Animal Farm. In fact, it wasn’t published at all, until 1972, after one of his biographers found it.

      Here’s a link to the whole thing. Perhaps you’d like to read it, then have a wee think about what you’ve been doing here for the past couple of years.

    398. Tannadice Boy says:

      @Hatuey 11:16pm
      An Independent,Judicial Public Inquiry, broadcast live. That is what I am going to be campaigning for, we haven’t heard from the voices that have dealt with this pandemic. And there is lot’s of issues there. They will come out, their voice have to be heard.

    399. Daisy Walker says:

      re vaccine passports…. if you think about it, most folk travelling abroad, take out travel insurance…

      If the insurance companies refuse to issue a policy for someone who is not vacinated, will they still risk the trip?

      I suspect a very high proportion would not, thus rendering vaccine passports a great big distraction. Particularly since the vaccine does not appear to work all that well.

      And how on earth, can anyone safely, scientifically predict that the vaccine, if it fails to stop you getting the disease, will definitely make it so that you get a lesser dose?

      Talk about wishful thinking.

      The absolute problem with all things Covid related is there is no standardised data, and where trustworthy data is obtained, (and how would you know) it is immediately rubbished by the opposition.

      We live in very difficult times, worldwide.

      One observation though, the people who are exempt from wearing the masks in public, are often the people most at risk and vulnerable if they do catch it. I personally hate the face masks, but wear the plastic visors, so my mouth and nose are not constricted… not really a hardship.

      With regards long covid, its worth looking up Dr Ron Davis from Stanford Uni, with regards the Open Medical Research he heads up into Chronic Fatigue. His most recent update publishes his letter to NICE critising them for not following the evidence with regards the medical advice they issue.

    400. Hatuey says:

      “have a wee think about what you’ve been doing here for the past couple of years.”

      I am acutely aware of what I have been doing here; trying to establish the truth, that this whole thing couldn’t have been handled more badly.

      And I had already read the essay you refer to… I’ve probably read every book and every essay Orwell ever wrote, even the crap Aspidistra one.

      The gist of the essay or intro you refer to, from memory, was about the control the press exerts in democratic societies like England, rather than totalitarian societies.

      I’m surprised that you think that might help you here when most of the scepticism about covid you have exhibited has origins in trashy right-wing newspapers that (like you) wanted us all to go back to work and risk our lives like obedient slaves.

      They say the more you pay for a fake painting, the less inclined you are to question its authenticity. Nobody could deny you’ve invested a lot — and you continue to invest — but that won’t ever make the painting real.

      You have a wee think about that.

    401. PacMan says:

      Going a bit off topic, I had read about an American comedian called David Chappelle causing controversy by using anti-Trans comments on a recent Netflix special. I’ve never heard of the guy and decided to see what the fuss was all about.

      I’m not going to go into what caused the controversy because what struck me about it was the extremely toxic nature of identity politics.

      In his routine, the comedian made derogatory comments about the Chinese, whites, Jews, Gays and Trans amongst others, not to mention throwing the N word about like confetti and then went into the criticism he has been receiving and tried to justify it by saying he is part of a minority as well.

      On top of that, the actor Will Wheathon of Star Trek: The next generation fame waded into the controversy by saying that as a youngster he made homophobic jokes that he watched from an Eddie Murphy movie.

      I wish I could say Only in America but as seen with this Trans Right Activism, this corrosive identity politics is firmly planted here and is only going to get worse due to Brexit and we drift closer politically, socially and economically to America.

    402. PacMan says:

      @ Daisy Walker re: Covid Passports.

      Like all people talking on this subject, I don’t know anything about viruses and vaccines, but considering with established ones you need to get it most of the time annually. Therefore it follows that the immunity of vaccines degrade after time.

      It seems the only effective method to say whether you have Covid or not is an accurate test rather than a passport which only tells that you had a vaccination x months ago.

      Covid passports was essentially used as a stick to motivate young people to get vaccination and serves no other purpose other than that.

    403. PacMan says:

      A thought on the higher rates of Covids death here in Scotland.

      As deaths seems to be caused by underlying health problems including obesity, could the legacy of health issued caused by our past heavy industry and widespread deprivation?

      Something that also needs to be pointed out that the current and past governments doesn’t seems to have dealt with obesity in the younger generation. Maybe reinstating healthy free school meals, fee fruit and banning fast food shops a certain distance from school could help with future pandemics?

    404. Andy Ellis says:

      @John Main 9.56 pm

      “Low population densities. (etc.)…”

      If you honestly think you can use those rather threadbare responses to explain why only 44 died in NZ compared with almost 10,000 in Scotland, I don’t really know what else to say to you.

      Of course no two countries are identical, but the argument that having a low population density, higher living standards, less ethnically diverse population (…also…really? is Scotland that much more ethnically diverse than NZ or Oz…?) and geographically isolated can account for such a disparity is so laughable that any reasonable person will see it for the utter nonsense that it is.

      What is it other than governmental policy that explains the disparity in rates between Sweden, Norway, Denmark and Finland then? Clue: it’s not the kind of bogus reasoning you employ, it’s the fact the Swedish government dropped the ball just like the UK and Scottish governments did. As a result the Swedish death rate from Covid was higher than for its Scandinavian neighbours.

      The same applies here and in England: you can make an argument that *some* of the differential can be explained away by a range of factors, but it’s not feasible to magic away >9,000 unnecessary deaths.

    405. Andy Ellis says:

      @Dan 9.46 pm

      Your analysis – such as it is – doesn’t really help, nor does it address the elephant in the room of the difference in the relative scale of deaths. Factoring in the kind of things your talking about might allow you to say: “Yeah, well a proportion of the > 9000 deaths in Scotland are attributable to [reason x, y, & z], which didn’t apply to countries like NZ because they did [*policy choice] differently, therefore it isn’t surprising that we had more deaths”, but I still don’t see how anyone can think it would justify the Scottish number being more than a few hundred rather than almost 10,000!

      If anyone had asked pre Covid what they would think of our governments response to a future deadly pandemic if the number of deaths in Scotland was 10 times higher than in NZ, people would be outraged….but when it was 200 times as many?

      The same principle applies for differentials in how deaths are recorded: it’d have to be one hell of a gross difference to help account for the differential.

      As for the acquaintance of your uncle, I’m sure there are lots of similar cases, but if the proximate cause of his death was Covid, the fact that he had underlying conditions probably isn’t that much of a comfort to his family and friends. Who knows how much longer he. and others in similar situations might have survived if it weren’t for covid?

      My daughter lost a close friend to covid in the first lockdown: he was 25 and immune suppressed due to cancer treatment. It is of course impossible to say with any certainty that he would have survived if covid hadn’t happened, but his chances may have been considerably better. There are doubtless many similar cases.

      That’s why we need an independent inquiry, for those responsible for the failures to be held to account, and to learn the lessons of the policy failures to ensure it can’t happen again.

    406. Ruby says:

      PacMan says:
      10 December, 2021 at 7:40 am
      Going a bit off topic,


      What is the topic?

      I’ve scanned through recent posts and they look very similar to posts I’ve scanned through many times before.

      Some calling for a public enquiry and I’m wondering what would be the point.

      What happened as a result of the ‘Chilcot Enquiry’, ‘the Leveson Enquiry’ and more recently the so called ‘Holyrood Enquiry’.

      All the money spent on these useless enquiries would be better spent on research into Covid or on ways to help people to stay healthy.

    407. sarah says:

      ON Topic: Julian Assange extradition to USA agreed by English High Court, per John Pilger twitter a few minutes ago.

      I am praying that an appeal will halt the extradition – but what mental anguish Julian and family will be going through. Unbelievably sad.

    408. Ruby says:

      sarah says:
      10 December, 2021 at 11:13 am
      ON Topic: Julian Assange extradition to USA agreed by English High Court, per John Pilger twitter a few minutes ago.


      I don’t think anyone here is interested Sarah.

      It’s very sad!

      Might be best to head over to Craig’s forum.

      It looks as if Wings is finished!

    409. sarah says:

      @ Ruby: never say die! The Rev is keeping his hand in on other forums with plenty of followers. And on here there will be plenty reading what is worth reading.

      Did Captain Yossarian ever get the decision he was waiting for and was it in his favour?

    410. PacMan says:

      Ruby @ 10 December, 2021 at 10:07 am

      I’m not sure where you are coming from as your reply has nothing to do with the comment I had made.

      I was merely highlighting the absurdity of identity politics which I had forgotten to mention that Nicola Sturgeon has introduced into Scottish politics with her support for TRA.

    411. Ruby says:

      PacMan says:
      10 December, 2021 at 12:32 pm
      Ruby @ 10 December, 2021 at 10:07 am

      I’m not sure where you are coming from as your reply has nothing to do with the comment I had made.


      You said you were going a bit off topic and I asked what was the topic. I just wondered what you thought the topic was that was all.

    412. Ruby says:

      sarah says:
      10 December, 2021 at 11:44 am
      @ Ruby: never say die! The Rev is keeping his hand in on other forums with plenty of followers.


      Are you able to give me the names of these forums I would like to go there rather than be here.

      Re Captain Yossarian. Are you serious? If so then sorry I can’t help.

    413. stuart mctavish says:

      Morning Hatuey
      (now afternoon as original got lost in ether (possibly due to the Johnny Hallyday–Envie youtube link, now removed))

      Had it (or something similar delivered from the al(a?)ps) few weeks ago.

      Double, triple, quadruple your water intake and you’ll be fine, vaccine side effects notwithstanding (the mutants in our household escaped the worst of it to my great surprise/ chagrin!). That said, if it lasts more than a few days try and source some antibiotics asap and in meantime if you cant get asprin and multivitamins in a box, willow bark and stinging nettle tea make an excellent substitute.. handwashing, etc. before and after rubbing your eyes might not be such a bad idea either!

      @ RepublicofScotland
      Looks like football boots and the Johnny Hallyday power stance to me:

      @ Dan
      Makes yonder why they didn’t waterboard him earlier given the response has to be same as told to Galloway, ie cant discuss any aspect of case during parole. Hope he’s able to bring good news from the Assange hearing – failing which trust Nicola has been working in secret to have Scotland’s appeal/ battleships ready and not been wasting too much time on the weird sex and sniff(le) distractions..

      @ Andy Ellis
      Finding records from down under particularly hard to come by (ie more than a couple of clicks away and in disassembled format) but looks like NZ might have had its covid outbreak in 2019, when total deaths appear to have been about 5% higher than adjacent years. This would of course be consistent with the traditional understanding of flu strains spreading West from the Pacific rather than, say, the antipodes being used as fertile testing ground for insanitary based authoritarianism in the anglo-sphere, etc. Although, if proved wrong, it was thankfully easy to find more than enough evidence of pioneering backbone and Steve Irwin like spirit to redress the situation when necessary – so looking forward to the day when the masks can come off and smsm can once again say the same about Scotland

      Cheers and good day/ happy Christmas to all

      Having now listened to the FM’s missed opportunity to respond to the Assange judgement during the wee Omicron press briefing I’m inclined to wonder if she appreciates the irony of asking Scots (particularly of the indy minded variety) to repeatedly test themselves, as if the past few years haven’t been testing enough.. ach well, mustn’t grumble, wont be long now, the smartest girls in the room must be teeing the ball up perfectly for next opportunity, no cunning plan survives first contact with the enemy, etc so who’s to say flying by the seat of our twisted panty fires wont prove more successful etc. etc, etc.

      Cheers again
      Ne obligatus, non obliviscarus

    414. Republicofscotland says:

      Scotland’s Finance secretary Katie Forbes has admitted that Brexit has damaged the Scottish economy more than the rest of the UK, she revealed this at her budget speech with our FM Sturgeon sitting close by nodding in agreement like a nodding dog on a parcel shelf of a car.

      It beggars belief that our FM nods in agreement as though the catastrophic economic tsunami that Scotland has and will continue to feel due to Brexit, couldn’t have been avoided, when Sturgeon could’ve and should’ve held an indyref to save Scots from years of suffering due to Brexit and its disastrous knock on effects that will just keep coming.

      Meanwhile our Finance secretary didn’t say much on Council tax, and here’s why, the SNP/Green budget will allow councils up and down the length and breadth of Scotland to raise council taxes as high as they want post April next year. The steep rise in the cost of living and the obscene rise on household fuel costs, with one-third of Scots already in fuel poverty, and things will go from bad to worse in this farcical union.

    415. Republicofscotland says:

      Sturgeon when asked about the obscene questions posed to children in her Health and Wellbeing Census 2021 said, She stands by the survey, and not put concerns on parents for completely unnecessary reasons.

      Sturgeon’s defence of the lewd questions includes that the survey isn’t mandatory, even though 24 of Scotland’s 32 local authorities have said that they’ll take part in the survey.

      Do the parents of the children, who those disgraceful lewd questions are aimed at know that their local councils are taking part in the survey, I bet most of the parents are completely unaware of what’s going on.

    416. Republicofscotland says:

      Its was interesting to note Sturgeon’s briefing today with regards to the Omicron variant it had an ominous tone about it as though they expect many deaths and hospitals to fill up rapidly, of course Sturgeon might just have been portraying the variant in this light to try and curb our activities over Christmas to halt or slow down the spread of both it and the Kent variant.

      As of the 8th of December two days ago, more than 40,000 South Africans have been confirmed to have the Omicron variant, the real figure will be much higher, yet according to reports no one has died from the variant yet.

      “Scientists and policy makers in South Africa and across the region are cautiously optimistic that the rapidly spreading Omicron variant is not going to cause a bloodbath as, so far, no deaths have been linked to the new Covid mutation.”

      “Despite a record number of new infections – more than 40,000 people tested positive in the last five days – a new study reported in South Africa media this morning further confirms Omicron is a relatively mild variant.”

      “The research, conducted by the Steve Biko/Tshwane District Hospital in Pretoria, found that Omicron-linked patients merely experience mild symptoms, with Dr Fareed Abdullah, who led the study, explaining to several media, including the New York Times, that by far most patients did not need supplemental oxygen.”

      Hopefully this is an indicator of how Omicron will pan out in Scotland, and the rest of the UK for that matter.,have%20been%20linked%20to%20the%20new%20Covid%20mutation.

    417. Dorothy Devine says:

      I have learned to hate or rather I have been taught to hate .
      The SNP have squandered support ,used politics to attempt imprisonment of Alex Salmond , ruined others financially by attacking them through courts and then dropping charges, imprisoned another innocent in Craig Murray and stayed quiet on the attack on Julian Assange. Their dismissive attitude to any query is loathsome.

      C’mon ALBA really put your head above the parapet and SHOUT.

    418. sarah says:

      @ Ruby at 1.17: there is a Wings facebook – go to the top of this article and immediately on the right is a Wings facebook logo – tap on that.

      Re Captain Yossarian: it was the “sinking school” issue I was wondering about. He, or someone, was pressing Scot gov about it and he said weeks ago that the final answer was expected in 2 or 3 weeks.

    419. Ruby says:

      sarah says:
      10 December, 2021 at 3:12 pm
      @ Ruby at 1.17: there is a Wings facebook!

      Just been having a look around Twitter. Craig’s twitter very interesting.

      I guess I’ll have to get to grips with Twitter and not be looking for info on Wings.

    420. Hatuey says:

      Dominic Cummings, former close friend and advisor to Boris, is the person most likely behind the revelations coming out of Downing Street. And we can probably assume he has a confederate on the inside who has access to video archives — this most recent Allegra Stratton clip and the leaked video of Matt Hancock kissing one of his aides point to a pattern and presence of determined antagonism.

      Boris is mortally wounded and will be forced to step down soon enough. Once a leader is on the slippery slope, with public opinion spiralling against them, it’s essentially impossible for them to get off.

      These things — attacks from allies and former allies along with falling approval ratings — nearly always go hand in hand. Keeping friends close and enemies closer is good advice in politics, but it isn’t risk free.

      Nicola’s approval ratings are plummeting and we can expect that to continue. People see her as a tiresome nag, even when it comes to saving us from coronavirus; the theatrics and PowerPoint delivery style won’t help.

      It’s just a matter of time before someone close to her sees opportunity where others see weakness. And we can assume that person will have been thinking and planning ahead and that they have intelligence.

      Politicians always want to look impregnable and permanent, but, of course, none of them are. All political careers end in failure. Someone clever, talking about life, said something along the lines of; ‘as we get older, we all inevitably evolve into the bastard we were trying to hide…’

      There’s no “undo” button for Nicola. History is coming.

    421. sarah says:

      Hi Ruby – I’m not a twitter account holder but I do read snippets from a whole load of people’s twitter – Craig, and Grouse Beater of course; Kenny MacAskill, Joanna Cherry, Ian Lawson, Barrhead Boy, Denise Findlay; Molly’s Mum [Indy soosie] and more!

      And Voices for Independence collates worthwhile posts from independence people daily – this was set up by a Winger!! Robert – can’t remember the surname, sorry Robert!

    422. Republicofscotland says:

      Julian Assange has been in detention (Arbitrary) and prison since around 2010, he has committed no crime other than reporting the machinations of US, and other governments, which we the public would not have had a clue were going on without Assange and his brave team at Wikileaks, even now Assange is being held without charge in the UK at the behest of the US.

      I can’t understand why the journalistic community isn’t up in arms about this travesty of justice, for if Assange is extradited to the US, it will surely set a precedent on journalists and journalism that will affect them as well, but then again many of these so called journalists, are already bought and paid for by government agencies.

      Sturgeon and the COPFS have wasted no time in catching up with the likes of the US in bending and twisting the laws of the land and redacting and obfuscating when they come under the spotlight, recent event have proven that.

      On Assange’s terrible unjust plight, the ECHR and the UN appear to be either toothless or reticent to help the man, which I find disgraceful.

    423. Hatuey says:

      RoS, I get it, but the UN has repeatedly condemned his detention and appealed for his release. I was reading about this last year and will come back with a link, if I can…

      You might say they’re toothless, but in that sense we all are.

      There’s not a lot any of us can do in terms of confronting the US justice system, State Dept., Government, etc.

      If we can’t do anything about the comparatively petty abuses of the pathetic ScotGov, what chance do we have against USGov?

    424. Republicofscotland says:

      Hatuey. @4.05pm.

      Nils Melzer a UN Rapporteur on Arbitrary Detention pointed out Assange’s unjust plight years ago yet nothing has been done, the UN and the ECHR appear reticent to do anything meaningful, if Assange were an American held like this in say Iran or China or Russia, the Western media and the UN and the EU would be screaming blue murder, it all stinks to high heaven.

    425. Dan says:

      Friday night thought… And I’m prepared to get shredded on this if folk feel the need, but it could be defended as a strong position for an individual to take as they’d effectively have the backing of their constituents and that is what local democracy is surely all about.
      How can we have true local democratic representation and empowerment of the citizens within the current Party politics dominated situation?

      Pretty much all candidates standing for a Party are only selected through the vetting process if when it comes to a crunch vote they put their own Party’s diktat over that of their constituents.
      We’ve seen the way the SNP have and continue to remove nearly all power from their members.
      From about a year ago.

      Plus there’s more recent articles on Iain Lawson’s blog.
      (@ Iain if you’re reading, the older articles on your site could be made a bit easier to find with an index 😉 )

      This situation means there is little mechanism available to counter the implementation of crap policies which are determined by the hierarchy of whatever respective Party is in power, and we end up with shite we don’t want foisted onto us.
      Being Party affiliated means any Party candidate seeking election can be tarnished or smeared by whatever shit / made up shit their respective Party has been deemed to have been up to.

      Can improvements be made to address this issue?
      With a thought to next year’s Local Authority elections, is there merit in embracing a process that would attempt to liberate us from the current quagmire.
      EG. Genuine non-Party affiliated local candidates stand on a platform whereby they are acting as a conduit which empowers their constituents.
      Obviously individuals putting themselves forward would have a basic policy position on various subjects which could be highlighted in their campaigning material and answering questions put to them at hustings. But for any contentious issues where a vote needs to be cast, they ask that any of their constituents that have strong views on such subjects cast votes through registering and voting on an App, the results of which would then determine how the Councillor cast their vote.
      Utilising such a system could protect both the Councillor and their respective constituents from enduring the negative aspects of Policy neither wish to have or agree with.

      I’m sure folk can say that couldn’t work because a group of the electorate within the Ward could mobilise and hijack a vote.
      But is that not what we have effectively seen happen on a national scale anyway? At least keeping it local would alleviate that sort of issue to a degree.

    426. Republicofscotland says:

      Even the Barnard Castle bawbag Cummings knows Sturgeon’s at with an indyref in mind.

      “She [Sturgeon] doesn’t even want it now she just wants to be boss up there and whinge.”

    427. Brian Doonthetoon says:

      Hi Tannadice Boy (when you come back in).

      To wrestle this page back to the topic of fitba’.

      Don’t know if you’re old enough to remember… It’s funny (peculiar) how some things stick in your brainbockers. Back in the 60s, when United had that squad of Scandinavians, there was a cartoon in (I think) the Peoples’ Journal, which showed a Scottish fitba’ team manager thinking out loud.

      His thoughts paraphrased the Ivy League’s hit of the time – “I can’t sleep at night, Dossing and Persson…”

      Onnyhoo, was Tiny Wharton no’ a hell of a referee?

    428. Tannadice Boy says:

      @Brian Doonthetoon 8:44pm
      Hi Brian
      Yeah I remember Finn Dossing a great player. Scandi players were cheap that’s why United bought them. We were a poor club and our big neighbours Dundee FC were the best side in Dundee by a long way. Everything and everyone has their time. Including Tiny Tim who must have been 6 six and patted unruly players on the head. I was very young then. And United played in black and white. It took a woman to improve things. Jim McLeans wife after a trip to America persuaded the board that United should play in Tangerine and Black. And we have never looked back..ish. a gubbing last week but not unexpected Celtic are playing well just now. I have to agree their fixture list is unreasonable over the festive period. That was a good post put up by Dan earlier on. Probably the reason I didn’t join Alba. We will get there in the end. Ps Friday is our babysitting day. And it is a long day!

    429. Hatuey says:

      I watched some of the news tonight on the BBC. It’s amazing what you watch when you’re poorly.

      The mood is pretty dark.

      Nicola is talking openly about a tsunami of infections and for once I agree. Jason confirmed it; one person in a room with the new variant can give covid to maybe 70 others, he explained.

      Nobody anywhere is willing to seriously consider the obvious and rational response. The rich, the right, and most of the MSM, with the gullible anti-life attack dogs by their sides, are sitting waiting to attack anyone that openly calls for another lockdown.

      In a matter of days, omicron will be the dominant variant in Scotland. By the 25th of December, we could easily be looking at 50 thousand new cases per day. And it keeps doubling, almost every two days…

      It is a tsunami and it’s going to smash right into us. Here’s the thing though that struck me tonight; with numbers like that, you really don’t need a lockdown as long as people stick to the self isolation rules (10 days) when they catch it — that basically is a lockdown when you think about it, a sort of rolling lockdown.

      I like it when problems create their own solutions like that. The thing is, leaving the thorny issue of hospitals and hospitalisations aside, who is going to man the shops, do deliveries, etc., when hundreds of thousands are isolating?

    430. Ian Brotherhood says:

      @Hatuey (11.20) –

      Fuck right off with your alarmist pish.

      Many of us said our goodbyes to one another, right here, when it became clear that Rev was shutting up shop.

      That Wings is now a ‘polling’ site doesn’t take away from the fact that btl remains an open space, and we’re all thankful for that, as long as it lasts.

      But it doesn’t mean that charlatans like you can just use this site to release sloppy brainfarts – masquerading as ‘argument’ – unchallenged.

      You are the superficially ‘charming’ face of something which is fundamentally rotten, and you know it. And we know it too – for as long as you continue to post rubbish here, someone will be ready to call it out.

    431. Tannadice Boy says:

      @Hatuey 11:20pm
      Sorry to hear you are poorly. I have been concerned for years about the BBC. Here is why. The boxing day Tsunami killed about 228000 people. Are we really saying that the Omicron variant is going to do that?. If not why are the BBC supporting catastrophising language by religiously repeating Sturgeon?. Republicofscotland posted a good post earlier. 40000 cases in South Africa and no deaths with little need for oxygen intervention. A young Doctor aged 34 tonight on STV calling for a Public Inquiry. The shock saturation of viral overload we are exposing our young doctors and nurses through. Never mind their mental state. We are wasting an entire young generation of our best NHS staff. Still no mention of a Public Inquiry. Dae as yer telt.

    432. Hatuey says:

      Nobody really knows, tannadice. The only thing we know about omicron is that it will spread like nothing we have seen before.

      My comment above didn’t give any reference to the question of how mild or deadly it might be, I was simply thinking about the isolation rules and the number of people that are going to get infected on a day-to-day basis.

      Think about it. ScotGov are saying we are likely to see about 100 thousand cases per day by year end. Each case has to go into isolation for 10 days, then you need to factor in those who live with that person or come into contact needing to isolate too. It soon gets astronomical and I don’t see how society can function if everybody does what the rules require.

      Meanwhile it’s doubling every two days or so. I don’t see how that sort of scenario can possibly work. I don’t think anyone has thought this through, well, except me…

    433. Hatuey says:

      Ian, a couple of things…

      “Fuck right off with your alarmist pish.”

      1) It’s not my alarmist pish. It’s official government alarmist pish. Have a look at the forecasts and graphs they produced today. This is all meant to unfold in a matter of days.

      “Many of us said our goodbyes to one another, right here, when it became clear that Rev was shutting up shop.”

      2) Did I unwittingly give you the impression that I’m interested in you?

      Let me double check; did I say anything that might somehow give the impression I was interested in poorly explained anti-vax, flat earth, crack pottery? Hmmmmmm.

      Nope. Definitely didn’t.

      I never lose my cool the way you do. Put a lid on it — it’s unbecoming.

    434. PacMan says:

      Just a quick internet search shows that nobody knows if Omnicron variant infection is going to have mild or severe symptoms. It may be more transmissible but that doesn’t necessary mean that it will result in more hospital cases,even if exponential infections.

      Nicola Sturgeon is well known for risk aversion and self-publicity. Covid has been a great opportunity for her to satisfy her hunger for self-promotion and given the limited scope of powers to deal with the virus, she can say pretty much what she wants and when things don’t go her way, she can fall back on the tired old line that it’s Westminster’s fault.

      These desires for risk aversion and self-publicity could well be her downfall as she has tied herself so closely with the pandemic.

      Leaving aside her apocalyptic rhetoric, she has said further restrictions could be put in place and household contacts will have to self-isolate for 10 days regardless of vaccination.

      We have seen this before where it has caused staff shortages throughout the economy which amongst others little or no food in the shops. That isn’t going to happen.

      We were in a dire place at the beginning of the year where it was purely a health emergency and drastic measures were required. We are beyond that. It is still a health issue but at this stage, an element of risk analysis is required where we need to balance health considerations and that of keeping society functioning. In short, we need to live with the virus.

      If this ‘potential tsunami of infections’ does happen and the NHS is not swamped, she is going to be weakened. It has to be remembered that rationing after WW2 came to end because public opinion turned against it and the same thing could happen with the handling of the pandemic.

      If Nicola Sturgeon doesn’t have a strategy to deal with it apart from going on TV nearly every day, is somebody within the SNP going to oust her or the opposition, possibly from Alba seize the opportunity to present an alternative strategy that resonates with the wider population?

    435. Hatuey says:

      Had to come back to ask something, although I’m struggling to see through the tears of laughter…

      “You are the superficially ‘charming’ face of something which is fundamentally rotten, and you know it. And we know it too”

      Ian, please, sincerely, I am genuinely asking and interested, pretty please, tell us who you think you are referring to above when you use the word “we”?

      My God, my ribs are fracturing.

    436. Breeks says:

      I think you’ve got to take COVID out of it’s context to gain, or rather regain a sense of perspective.

      The great fear amongst the Global community is a highly communicable disease that is lethal to humans and could escalate into an extinction level event, or at least kill us in our millions.

      That is why swine flu and bird flu cause such concern, because it’s a highly communicable disease spreading amongst animals, but amongst animals we come into close contact with. The big risk that a highly communicable animal disease which has become quite sophisticated surviving in an animal’s physiology and antibodies etc, suddenly jumps species, becomes communicable between humans, but where a human’s physiology has no experience of the disease and no effective defence against it.

      Thus something harmless or a minor ailment in an animal has the potential to become a devastating “plague” amongst humans.

      A global pandemic is like a two part epoxy; two constituent parts inert while separate, but extremely potent when they come together. Once you have a highly communicable disease that is also highly lethal, that’s when you have the massive deaths.

      COVID 19 is of great concern because it is a highly communicable virus, (but if it’s possible to say so without offending people who lost loved ones to COVID), it isn’t going to wipe us out. COVID-19 is not our extinction level event.

      But even if COVID-19 isn’t the humanity killer, it still remains that 1-part component of the 2 part epoxy. “IF” COV-19 mutated into a lethal pathogen, then we’re back in trouble again. But! COVID-19 is now a “human” disease, and unlike bird flu or swine flu, it is now evolving in a human’s physiology, which is also allowing the defence mechanisms of a human physiology to adapt and become more sophisticated dealing with COVID. COVID is now a human disease.

      So while we shouldn’t complacent, the threat to humanity from COVID is lessening, and barring a freak mutation, humanity will go on as before.

      There is however another problem.

      COVID-19 rang the big alarm bells as a potentially lethal global pandemic, and prompted the global community to react to that situation.

      Humanity was plunged into it’s “This is not a drill” nightmare scenario, but when you look back in retrospect, every mechanism meant to counter a global pandemic failed. Lockdowns failed. Quarantines failed. Vaccines took too long, weren’t conventionally successful, and sporadically deployed. Stocks vital PPE equipment and medical equipment were inadequate. We were lucky.

      We seem content to judge our performance against COVID-1(9 and give ourselves a pat on the back. But it seems to me, we are being dangerously complacent about our lamentable anti-pandemic protocols and shambolic preparedness.

      COVID-19 wasn’t a drill, but it went easy on us. The fact COVID-19 didn’t kill a billion of us is a consequence of COVID’s relative lack of lethality, not humanity’s success in containing it.

      Things will not be better “next time”. In fact, we may be worse of now that we have societies now cynical of lockdowns, vaccinations, the “science”, and sickened by the greed and exploitation of the politicians.

      If you understand what I mean, we have overreacted to COVID without it being an overreaction. We deployed the maximum state of alert, but inefficiently and kept it going for too long, thus breeding scepticism and indifference. It’s all been a bit of an uncoordinated disaster if you want to be truthful.

      I think we need more that two stages of alert, normal and emergency. We need 3 or 4 stages of pandemic alert, a bit like we have with terrorism threat, but not just rhetoric. People need to know what happens during each alert status. Maybe we need to practice civil defence exercises to practice effective lockdowns, cope with shortages etc… be ready.

      I don’t even think we were lucky with COVID. It’s maybe fairer to say we didn’t get unlucky. As it is, we’ve learned nothing, not a single thing, that will help us if Mother Nature suddenly decides “Ding! Ding! Round 2….”

    437. Fionan says:

      testing – cant see any comments since yesterday morning – or have the trolls suitably bored everyone to tears at last?

    438. John Main says:

      Pac-Man writes:

      “In short, we need to live with the virus”.

      OMG! That makes two of us who have seen the light.

      It is but a short step from there to the next breakthrough. Given the distribution of increasing Ill-effects with increasing age, the logical policy for healthy individuals to pursue is to catch COVID as soon as possible.

      The vast majority of young, healthy people will hardly notice they have it. And once recovered, they can get on with their lives. Even for us oldies, our prognosis now is still better than it will ever be again.

      For the avoidance of doubt, “living with COVID” will, of course, mean special protections for the sick, the immune compromised, the occupants of care homes, etc. But with every lockdown and set of restrictions, the tax income to pay for these protections is being eroded as the economy shrinks.

      At some point, we are all going to have to emerge, blinking, into the real world and face the facts. The past two years have seen heroic attempts to pretend we can beat nature, but like all such attempts, it is doomed to failure.

    439. Ruby says:

      Ian Brotherhood says:
      10 December, 2021 at 11:46 pm

      That Wings is now a ‘polling’ site doesn’t take away from the fact that btl remains an open space, and we’re all thankful for that, as long as it lasts.



      How many of you are there?

      Judging by the comments it doesn’t look as if there many who are thankful for the open space provided by Wings.

      “Many of us said our goodbyes to one another, right here, when it became clear that Rev was shutting up shop.”

      Why? Does that mean ‘Wingers’ are no more?

    440. Stoker says:

      PacMan says on 11/12/21 @ 4:44 am

      “…nobody knows if Omnicron variant infection is going to have mild or severe symptoms.”

      Not true! It was announced very early on in its “discovery” that it spreads much faster/easier than Delta variant but is nowhere near as dangerous with considerably milder symptoms.

      I see a “top UKGov spokesman”, Michael Gove, yet again given free platform space yesterday by the BBC to spout unchallenged utter doom-n-gloom terror regarding the Covid Omicron variant. He also crossed a line by referring to Scotland’s situation. Scotland’s health service and related issues are not in his remit. But it became very obvious why he had to associate Scotland with what he was spouting about England.

      It was obvious that once again Unionists are totally using and abusing this whole pandemic situation for their own advantages. And in this case it was clearly all about the formation of the excuse they’ll use for not agreeing to an S30 if Sturgeon ever formally begs for one. And note how Sturgeon herself is, at the same time, using ‘project fear’ language such as “tsunami” etc.

      Sickening that the BBC give drug-snorting irresponsible self-servers such as Gove free platforms to act as experts on these matters whilst, at the same time, pushing project fear. And never ever mentioning we are where we are because of those useless c@nts in Westminster nor how we’ve held elections etc, with more elections due in May2022.

      Mind you, Gove’s timely arranged BBC platform appearance did achieve its short-term goal, it immediately removed Bozo’s party lies etc off the front pages & off the top headline spot. Manufactured “news”, something the English media excel at. As the BBC often boasted themselves: “The BBC – Making And Breaking The News 24/7”

    441. Hatuey says:

      “At some point, we are all going to have to emerge, blinking, into the real world and face the facts.”

      I’m suggesting you do that today. You can find the facts and modelling based on these facts right here;

      Have a look at figure 6 on page 6. It’s a pretty standard probability forecast, giving best case, middle case, and worst case scenarios.

      Nobody seems to understand the implications of Sturgeon’s statement yesterday.

      I do.

    442. Dan says:

      @ Tannadice Boy 10 December, 2021 at 10:39 pm

      Well “that good post” didn’t exactly set the heather alight in promoting discussion on the subject… 🙁

      Scotland 2021

      What do we want?
      Why do we want it?
      Mumble mumble… a lone voice in the crowd is heard to shout “Fannypads in the blokes’ loos“, and the crowd then agreed because it at least broke the prolonged cringing silence which was frankly becoming embarrassing, and it was also more than anything they could muster as a reason for Scotland to return to self-governing status.

      And so it came to pass that Scots would meekly accept to have female sanitary products in the male toilets, and endure a myriad other stuff they don’t want or agree with, rather than embrace citizen empowerment by accepting the offer and participating in a dynamic democratic process.

    443. Ruby says:

      My health tip would be to stop obsessing/reading about Covid.

      Your body needs rest & relaxation and you are not going to get that if you are obsessing about Covid 24/7.

      I only read the very basics about Covid. ie is there a lockdown, can we travel, masks required.

      I know Sturgeon says don’t party, don’t do this don’t do that but I wonder if she has ever emphasised the importance of rest & relaxation and what we should do to relax.

    444. Ruby says:

      Hatuey says:
      11 December, 2021 at 11:22 am
      “At some point, we are all going to have to emerge, blinking, into the real world and face the facts.”

      I’m suggesting you do that today. You can find the facts and modelling based on these facts right here;


      I am suggesting you most definitely do not do that.

      Switch off from obsessing about Covid for at least the week-end. Your body will thank you.

      I’m off to watch Craig Murray on the BBC, read about Julian Assange, see what’s being said about Humza & the nursery, see if there’s any more news about the police investigations into leaks, see who might be the next UK Prime Minister, what Cummings is saying today etc.

    445. Hatuey says:

      Good article, Breeks.

      I read an article on Bloomberg recently suggesting covid could herald the end or at least winding back of globalisation. I think we are going to see much reduced international travel and much more self sufficiency when it comes to production and economics generally, which isn’t a bad thing.

      Omicron could be the last gentle hint that coronavirus gives us before it comes up with some mutation that is truly apocalyptic. Surely that’s the lesson here, that we can’t just allow these disease to waltz into our countries as we have so far, causing absolute mayhem.

    446. Hatuey says:

      Ruby, if I found this stuff upsetting, I’d take your advice. I don’t. I think it has been managed badly and that annoys me but the stuff I’m pointing at today and the conclusion I reached when I looked at the numbers take you quite quickly to a realisation — the government has no choice.

      Since you were kind enough to give me advice, let me give you some; do as much of your Christmas shopping as possible right away.

      Btw, it’s not so much the health implications that are of concern here. It’s the dislocation. The choice is between managed dislocation which we call lockdown or unmanaged dislocation which we call meltdown. And that’s no choice at all.

    447. PacMan says:

      Thanks to all that replied.

      Despite what Stoker says, it’s too early to say if Omnicron really does only have mild symptoms. I’m cautiously optimistic that it is but there is still that bit at the back of my mind that gives makes me a bit nervous towards current events.

      I’m also trying to be careful of my words and mindful of people who have suffered and lost ones throughout the pandemic.

      Because of this It’s a bit hard to articulate properly but what I’m trying to put across this idea that since full restrictions were lifted in August we have effectively entered the ‘political’ phase of the pandemic whereby decisions are taken out of the hands of health professionals and into those of politicians.

      Politicians still have to take advice from health professionals but they need to make decisions based on them in a risk management way whereby the weigh the risks between the effects of the pandemic on society and that of trying to run society with some semblance of normality.

      An example of this is that we need to get back to a point whereby the sick and vulnerable are not effectively prisoners in their own home but also that the young aren’t demonised when they go out for a few drinks to enjoy themselves as well as not damaging the service sector of our economy. There needs to be sensible handling the level of restrictions required to handle the pandemic that suits all parts of society.

      As Breeks also mentioned, our society needs to change so that we can deal with future pandemics and if for example that means permanently wearing face coverings in public places then so be it.

      These are political decisions and politicians needs to have the back bone to implement them rather than going on TV everyday waffling nonsense.

      This needs to be put onto the political agenda. The Tories and Labour are all over the place on the subject. Can Alba step up to the plate on this?

    448. PacMan says:

      Hatuey says: 11 December, 2021 at 12:12 pm

      I read an article on Bloomberg recently suggesting covid could herald the end or at least winding back of globalisation. I think we are going to see much reduced international travel and much more self sufficiency when it comes to production and economics generally, which isn’t a bad thing.

      I can across recently a concept called Autarky which is a notion of self-sufficiency that can exist on a national level and was even discussed at one point by Keynes in the thirties.

      This is a good article about it but is quite lengthy.

    449. Ruby says:

      Hatuey says:

      Since you were kind enough to give me advice, let me give you some; do as much of your Christmas shopping as possible right away.

      Is that all the advice you have?
      I’m OK thanks the garage is still pretty full of toilet rolls from the last stock-pile.

      Everyone will be getting a six pack this Christmas.

      I usually do socks but they ain’t that good for wiping your bum or blowing your nose.

      I hope you are keeping well and have plenty of bog roll to wipe your nose & your tears.

      Stay cool! Om!

    450. PacMan says:

      Hatuey says:11 December, 2021 at 11:22 am

      “At some point, we are all going to have to emerge, blinking, into the real world and face the facts.”

      I’m suggesting you do that today. You can find the facts and modelling based on these facts right here;

      Have a look at figure 6 on page 6. It’s a pretty standard probability forecast, giving best case, middle case, and worst case scenarios.

      Nobody seems to understand the implications of Sturgeon’s statement yesterday.

      I do.

      In page 7 of the link you provided it says:

      It is likely that a proportion of these infections will result in hospitalisation. To avoid
      the NHS being put under severe pressure Omicron would need to be substantially
      less severe than Delta (either because of the characteristics of Omicron or the
      effectiveness of vaccination against severe disease) given the very substantial
      number of infections projected in Figure 6.

      From what I can gather this is the same as what Sage is advising in England.

      If Omnicron causes only mild symptoms and doesn’t result in the possible level of hospitalisations predicted on both sides of the border by health advisers, what happens to the public trust in governments implementing this advice?

      Also, if it was that bad what didn’t Nicola Sturgeon implement restrictions by now and closing the border with England which she has the powers to do?

    451. Hatuey says:

      Lol @ “is that all the advice you have”

      Ruby, if I went beyond that and advised say a booster shot, I’d have a bunch of crackpots calling me a big pharma shill and, well, we all know how that goes…

      Pfizer are saying the booster helps a great deal but I’m not sure they can be called reliable any more… and they make billions out of boosters.

      I was on a biochemist’s website the other day and I asked if they could intentionally design vaccines that waned in terms of immune protection, forcing us to buy more of their product, like the sort of built-in obsolescence they build into fridges, etc.

      He didn’t respond… well, not with words. He “liked” my question then blocked or banned me from the forum.

      It’s like Jason and the Argonauts trying to get a straight answer out of these people… well, without the Argonauts or the fancy boat, and I’m not exactly Jason.

      Fuck it.

    452. Republicofscotland says:

      Jeez oh, HorseBox Mike Russell calls for the resignation of the liar Boris Johnson, Johnson should go, however there’s a coven of liars within Russell’s own party that have caused immense damage not just to the indy cause but to Scots in general

      Of course Russell (now just the SNP’s president) is just one of many SNP MSP’s and MP’s who now shout out loudly and point look over there when it comes to the machinations of other politicians, but stay completely quiet on the gigantic failing within their own party that are growing by the day.

      I can’t even take Russell seriously anymore.

    453. Hatuey says:

      PacMan, I advise you factor in the S-gene target failure stuff when you look at the forecast (fig 6).

      The impact on health, btw, how mild it is, etc., is somewhat incidental since nobody has a clue. That isn’t what worries them, not really. It’s a worry but since we can do fuck all about it, and it’s an unknown quantity, it’s essentially a background issue.

      In short, Scotland is already at just over 1000 omicron cases per day. That means you can absolutely rule out the best case scenario stuff in the forecast which suggests we get to a thousand around the 20th of December. We are already there.

      Now start doubling every 2.3 days. You’ll see.

      My rough calculations suggest we get to around 50 thousand cases per day just before Christmas. That’s every day and it’s doubling every 2.3 days or so. You basically end up in lockdown anyway with so many people needing to isolate, along with all family members. From there it goes nuts.

      As I said, you can do lockdown in a managed way or you can do it in an unmanaged way.

      My guess is they’ll close schools this week and keep the shops open. I’ve got to assume other stuff like gymn’s and pubs will close too.

      Everybody assumed Sturgeon was over-egging the pudding yesterday. It looks like she did the opposite.

    454. Ruby says:

      Hatuey says:
      11 December, 2021 at 1:19 pm
      Lol @ “is that all the advice you have”

      Ruby, if I went beyond that and advised say a booster shot, I’d have a bunch of crackpots calling me a big pharma shill and, well, we all know how that goes…


      We certainly do!

      The question I’ve been wanting to ask you for months now is:

      Why don’t you ignore the crackpots?

      If you come across someone in the street with a billboard that states ‘the end of the world is nigh’ do you stop and point out to him why he’s wrong/or right?

      The sort of advice I’m looking for since you reminded me of my stockpiles is:

      HTF to cook decent rice?

      I have a cupboard full of basmati, jasmine, value, brown, long grain, short grain wild & every other type of rice that was available in the supermarket when I was stockpiling.

      I thought rice would be a good staple to have in my stockpile but sadly I haven’t been able to successfully cook the stuff.
      It’s either too sticky, too hard, too burnt. I’ve tried, boiling, microwaving cooking it in a rice cooker but nothing works.

      PS How bad is it not to give Christmas presents?
      Does rice have a sell by date?
      Is the end of the world nigh?

    455. PacMan says:

      @ Hatuey

      Existing vaccines require to be taken annually and at certain periods, particularly in the winter boosters are required as well. It follows that the Covid vaccines will have the same characteristics so it isn’t some conspiracy of big pharma trying to profit out of the pandemic.

      There is also the fact that Covid is a new virus in it’s own right, although we’re not supposed to say that’s man made and came out of a certain country. It looks like due to this that it is rapidly mutating and because of it’s transmitability and infectiousness, vaccines needs to be quickly changed to deal with variants.

      It means that everybody will have to get boosters and annual vaccinations for the near future until the virus gets to a level where it can be effectively managed i.e. the older and vulnerable groups who get existing vaccines.

    456. Republicofscotland says:

      South American countries that the Great Satan (USA) wants to regime change are changing their recognition of Taiwan and its capital Taipei back to recognising Beijing as the only legitimate capital of China, though not all see Taipei as the capital of China, recently Nicaragua moved in this direction and its thought Honduras will as well.

      Only a handful of small island, Great Satan influenced nations in the Caribbean and the South Pacific, supports Taipei as the capital of China.

      Meanwhile China has cut all tie with Lithuania, after it opened an embassy in Taipei, the Great Satan is currently trying to persuade as many countries as possible to boycott the Winter Olympic in China which begin in February 2022.

    457. Republicofscotland says:

      This is a pretty good article on the Omicron variant, it explains why it could lead to deaths in Scotland, and hospitals filling up, as South Africa has a much younger population than Scotland.

    458. Ruby says:

      Hi Republicofscotland

      Check out link BDTT posted the other day

      I’ve used it to archive ‘The Herald’ article you posted.

    459. Hatuey says:

      Ruby, as I understand it, you need to rinse the rice thoroughly before cooking and that stops it sticking together. I have a sack of the stuff too from lockdown 1.

      Apparently it only lasts so long because there’s insects that hatch in it and they eventually start eating it. The eggs are microscopic so you can’t see them. They’re like breadworm, only rice oriented.

      I don’t ignore the crackpots because they’re dangerous and wrong. They were on here telling people that the vaccine is the virus until recently, it’s all a fraud, we don’t need lockdowns, and, most annoying of all, that we generally shouldn’t attach any importance or value to the lives of old people…

      They’re a bunch of fuckwits that can’t handle being ordinary fuckwits so they put themselves at the centre of some conspiracy that only they and a few other enlightened fuckwits understand, like they’re in a movie or something, the Davinci Code, if only we’d all listen and bow to their idiotic fuckwit ideas.

      You did ask…

    460. Hatuey says:

      Pac-Man, not all vaccines require more than one dose. It depends on how mutagenic the virus or disease is that you’re targeting. Coronaviruses such as the common cold mutate a lot.

      I only asked about the possibility of waning protection out of interest. I don’t think that’s what they’re doing but I wouldn’t put it past them.

    461. Ruby says:

      Hatuey says:

      I don’t ignore the crackpots because they’re dangerous and wrong. They were on here telling people that the vaccine is the virus until recently, it’s all a fraud,


      Forget the rice! It’s all been chucked out along with the insects and their microscopic eggs!

      Why did you feel the need to take on the responsibility of pointing out to people that the crackpots were crackpots? Did you not think people were able to recognise that for themselves?

      Were there any people reading all the posts between yourself and the ‘crackpots’?

      Was it at that point people deserted Wings?

      Not to worry what’s done’s done.

      Just saying it might be a good idea for yourself, Andy Ellis & Nicola Sturgeon to just sometimes ‘take a hint’.

    462. Hatuey says:

      Ruby, people “deserted” Wings when Wings stopped producing great content. It has nothing to do with any of this.

      “Why did you feel the need to take on the responsibility of pointing out to people that the crackpots were crackpots?”

      The coronavirus pandemic is probably the biggest historical event any of us is likely to live through. Why wouldn’t you comment when people are misrepresenting and abusing the facts of the matter?

      What subject is more important and, as you see it, one that we should engage crackpots over?

      It’s also, as I see it, a subject that is hugely relevant to discussions concerning the need for independence and the systematic failures of Sturgeon as a leader.

    463. Ruby says:

      Hatuey says:
      11 December, 2021 at 3:15 pm
      Ruby, people “deserted” Wings when Wings stopped producing great content. It has nothing to do with any of this.


      How come you Andy Ellis & Nicola Sturgeon are always so cocksure sure of your ‘facts’?

      If you look back at any Wings article you will see people weren’t here just for the ‘great content’ people were here to communicate. The first handful of comments were about the ‘great content'(cos them were the rules) but most of the rest were about a whole load of different topics.

      The btl facility where people can communicate is still available and I’m wondering why people aren’t.

      It has been hinted that it might be down to too many trolls, folk feeding the trolls YOU and Andy Ellis.

    464. Andy Ellis says:

      @ Hatuey 3.15 pm

      While we may not always agree on everything (and indeed why should we, or anyone else for that matter…?), I’d like to warmly endorse your cri de coeur and your rationale for continuing to engage with the moon howlers.

      Of course it suits some of the nutter fringe and their enablers (I’ll leave it to the doubtless dwindling number of adults still tuning in to decide which category Ruby herself fits into) to paint responses from you, me and others who haven’t gone full Ian Brotherhood, as responsible for people deserting WoS, or derailing the place etc, etc.

      It’s been interesting to see how enraged this hard of thinking and deeply regressive minority become when people call them out for their woo-woo. It is of course a much more plausible explanation that it is the fact these lunatics appear to taken over the asylum which accounts in large part for the decline in BTL discourse. As we saw in spades with Trumpists, TRA extremists, climate change deniers, and brexiteers now we see with anti-vaxxers. It’s no coincidence of course that there is such a big overlap in the membership of these groups, even if they don’t always totally overlap.

      I think your analogy above is a good one: fuckwits like to feel important by centring their conspiracy du jour, and insisting that only they and their fellow fuckwits are really enlightened because MSM conspiracy / big pharma / Bill Gates microchipping our children / MI5-CIA-illuminati / shape-shifting space lizards [insert woo woo of choice.

      Some have actually convinced themselves they’re either the silent majority, others that they’re keepers of the true flame, but they’re equally deluded. Of course, you can fool some of the people all the time, as Trumpian politics shows. Those people are the logical fit for the anti-vaxxer claque infesting this site over recent months. It’s a sad decline, but it’s good that you and a few other grown ups continue to fight against it. The fact it obviously triggers so many of the moon howlers just demonstrates how necessary it is.

      Keep fighting the good fight!

    465. John Main says:

      Andy Ellis

      I have read most of today’s comments and can find no anti-vax statements, nor Trumpian claims.

      No climate discussions nor Brexit rants either.

      I am not seeing what you are seeing here. One of us is imagining things.

    466. Republicofscotland says:

      The G7 countries are holding a meeting in Liverpool just now to find ways to counter China and Russia, with Ukraine in mind.

      Of course the reality is that the G7 is meeting to find ways to counter Russia’s Nordstream II and China’s belt and Road Initiative, but using the Russian build up of troops on the border with Ukraine to mask it.

      There’s one big elephant in the room though and that’s countries like Germany depend on Russian gas, and more so now, the Great Satan (US) wants Europe to buy its gas, which is more expensive, so ways to counter Nordstream II need to be found and that’s where Ukraine comes in.

      The National Endowment for Democracy’s president Carl Gershman admitted in an op-ed in the Washington Post that the coup in Ukraine in 2014 was aimed at undermining and eventually toppling Putin. Like Australia which is being used by the US as the tip of the spear in the economic war against China, Ukraine is being used in a similar way by the Great Satan against Russia.

      The idea is to goad Russia into invading Ukraine, and the West can then impose extreme sanctions, one being mentioned is to cut-off Russia from SWIFT, which is used in global transactions. Of course one sanction would definitely be the shunning of Russian gas, and that’s one of the goals of the US.

    467. Republicofscotland says:

      Ruby @2.11pm.

      Thanks for the heads up.

    468. Andy Ellis says:

      @John Main 5.48 pm

      Perhaps other contributors just have a broader view than you John? A general point was being made.

      The discussion above wasn’t purely in relation to today’s comments, as is fairly obvious to anyone reading the comments on this and most other BTL threads on WoS in recent months.

      If you’re not seeing anti-vaxxer statements and sentiment and statements in here, or a Trump-esque approach to labelling reality “fake news” you’re either not paying attention or being wilfully blind. I don’t really care which given what I’ve seen of your general output and opinions to be honest, as you’re very much one of those who fits in the “not open to reason” category from everything I’ve seen.

    469. Ian Brotherhood says:

      Doctors for Covid Ethics Symposium (2): ‘Sounding The Call’

      If you haven’t the time, please at least check the final comments (from approx 3hr50) by Dr. Bakhdi.

    470. John Main says:

      Andy Ellis

      I reckon I am open to reason. Maybes we can’t agree on what constitutes reason.

      To you, reason is the uncritical repetition of conventional orthodoxy, alternating with the hurling of invective at anybody who asks awkward questions.

      If, as you claim, your earlier post was a general one and not aimed at any particular individual or thread, its inclusion of around 30 insults seems remarkable.

    471. Ruby says:

      John Main says:
      11 December, 2021 at 5:48 pm
      Andy Ellis

      I have read most of today’s comments and can find no anti-vax statements,

      Possibly that is because you haven’t been around long enough and you didn’t recognise the name ‘Ian Brotherhood’.

      I saw the exchange between Ian Brotherhood & Hautey (a little further up this thread) and I was immediately reminded of the screeds & screeds & screeds of exchanges between Hautey and others of a similar mind to Ian Brotherhood (described by Hautey as ‘crackpots’) on many earlier threads. Pixywine is another of ‘the crackpots’ that I remember. His saving grace was that he was funny unlike Hautey, Ellis & Brotherhood.

      Ian Brotherhood seems to have backed off this time around and well done to him for doing that. It seems he at least can ‘take a hint’ unlike Ellis, Hautey & Sturgeon!

      Andy Ellis doesn’t seem to have a very high opinion of you not sure if you are considered a moonhowler or a crackpot.

      Do you care?

      He seems to be struggling to find a category for me.

    472. John Main says:

      Republic Of Scotland – 5:51

      Most of what you write may be true, I don’t know.

      TBH, my anger is focussed on those in Scotland who are conniving at leaving our own oil and gas in the ground, in the full knowledge that we will still have to buy alternative oil and gas from uncertain and pricey foreign sources for many years to come.

      While our jobs and technical expertise withers, our money will be used to maintain the jobs and technical expertise of foreigners. That loss of money and taxes from within our economy will impact upon our ability to fund the transition to new carbon-neutral or zero-carbon energy sources.

      It stinks.

    473. John Main says:


      I consider myself both a moonpot and a crackhowler.

      I refuse to be pigeonholed. Although I have heard that the SG wants to survey the incidence of pigeonholing within under-16s.

    474. Ruby says:

      John Main says:
      11 December, 2021 at 7:23 pm

      I consider myself both a moonpot and a crackhowler.

      I refuse to be pigeonholed. Although I have heard that the SG wants to survey the incidence of pigeonholing within under-16s.


      LOL! That’s a cracker!

      I think I might be up for a bit of pigeonholing although TBH it’s been such I long time I can’t actually remember!

    475. Hatuey says:

      Lol @ “as you’re very much one of those who fits in the “not open to reason” category from everything I’ve seen.”

      Nicely put, squire. And thanks for the expressions of support.

      I’ve never considered the comments on here as being hugely important; the thing that elevated this place and brought us all here in the first place was the rich content.

      The idea that some anti-vax fuckwit should dictate to those that remain, telling us what ideas are and aren’t acceptable, is really quite staggering when you think about it.

      If he hadn’t quote Orwell as he tried to censor me, I might have pretended I was offended rather than laughed uncontrollably at the obscene stupidity of his position.

      Maybe it was intended as a joke and we are dealing with some higher form of intelligence.

    476. PacMan says:

      Can I join the chorus of moon howlers?

      Please, pretty please?

    477. Republicofscotland says:

      Ian Brotherhood @6.35pm.

      Ian there was an interesting discussion on the radio earlier on today, where an article from the Lancet was quoted in which it was said that vaccines are not the way out of this pandemic, though they do help.

      The alternative or should I say complimentary to vaccinations is a short but intense period of isolation for everyone in conjunction with measures such as mask wearing. I suppose you could say we’ve already done this with lockdowns, and I’d add to this that say country (A) might impose strict measures and see cases fall, that country (B) Not following the same path would cause havoc when their citizens entered country (A).

    478. Ruby says:

      PacMan says:
      11 December, 2021 at 7:43 pm
      Can I join the chorus of moon howlers?

      Please, pretty please?


      I highly recommend it!

      Howling is a brilliant way to relieve stress.

      You should be OK if you have a dog. You can blame him/her if your neighbours complain.

      No dog then just go to a quiet place and

      owooooo! owooooo!

    479. Ian Brotherhood says:

      This Croatian MEP isn’t buying any of Ursula von der Leyen’s spiel about having to discuss mandatory jags:

    480. PacMan says:

      Oh great white god Andy Ellis who come in from the big bird in the sky, please forgive these ignorant savages who mock thy name and curse thee. I spit on them while I gnaw on my aunties shine bone.

    481. Ian Brotherhood says:

      @Republicofscotland (7.44) –

      Didn’t hear that, but thanks for the heads-up.


    482. Robert Graham says:

      Two years on and where are we ?

      Answer in the same fkn place we were in March almost 2 years ago.

      According to the UK Government this has been the most successful inoculation rollout in history more people have been given this Serum than every other inoculation in history , it’s also caused more deaths and injuries than every single vaccine combined , over 2000 in Britain alone

      A minor flaw in all this selling and promotion of a Serum that does not protect the person who receives it .

      Even the manufacturers of this concoction are not stupid enough to claim it’s a cure

      The only ones protected are the chemical companies and their shareholders $ 1000.00 dollars a minute they are extracting from Governments worldwide , Moderna who have never been trusted to produce any medicines rely totally on this one product , they don’t make anything else it’s a fkn gold mine that companies stock price gained 50% in value at the announcement of the new MORONIC strain rearranging the letters was the final up yours to the mug public it’s all a fkn con job .

    483. Stoker says:

      @ PacMan 12:33 pm today:

      Just to be clear, i wasn’t getting at you personally, just correcting your claim that “nobody knows if the Omicron variant is going to be milder than Delta”. Several news outlets reported that it was, in the early days of its discovery, and i remember clearly there was no caveats attached. The experts told us so. LOL! Sarcasm is hard to portray online. 😉

      As for the rest of your 12:33 post, i think “the political” has been overriding “the health” position more or less from the beginning especially where Westminster is concerned. But yeah, that will become the priority even more-so with every passing day. I also believe firmly certain politicians have been, and will continue to do so, using & abusing the whole pandemic situation for their own benefits & not that of the masses.

      Re Omicron variant, i see by simply Googling ‘scientists say omicron variant milder than delta’ you get a load of results back mostly declaring just that. But what i also notice is that most of the recent articles from the various levels of expertise now carry CYB-type caveats of “but it’s too early to say for sure” etc.

      Even WHO can be seen contradicting itself on the matter, depending on what WHO expert is behind the article and if you compare WHO’s earlier articles from just a few weeks ago to their more recent ones. Various news outlets from different countries also give conflicting advice & info etc. But the general consensus seems to be Omicron not as severe as Delta but spreads 4-times faster, (but it’s *still* too early to tell). LOL!

    484. Stoker says:

      Couple of interesting stories for those who missed them:

      UKGov spent £2.1bn to move troops from Germany before U-turn to put forces back

      25-year-old Trident submariner dies suddenly at naval base in Scotland

      Regarding the submariner report, some articles are taking the opportunity to spout their seriously questionable statistics again, long-since debunked by Wings Over Scotland, regarding how many folk work at the base etc. Or as one article spouts: 7000 submariners. But of course, folks, there are those who will try to tell us the BritNat media don’t play a part in keeping Scotland chained to Westminster. LOL!

    485. Stoker says:

      Sorry, correction to my previous post, it wasn’t 7000, it stated:

      “There are about 5,000 submariners who crew the vessels,”

      🙂 LOL! 5000 submariners crew 4 vessels? I’m no expert but even i know that’s as honest as Sturgeon’s commitment to hold a 2023IndyRef. As i said, debunked by WOS a very long time ago.

    486. Andy Ellis says:

      @John Main 7.07 pm

      I’d agree we maybe can’t agree on what constitutes reason. I see from further up thread (3.57 pm) Ruby wonders why Hatuey, me and for some strange reason Niclola Sturgeon – the association eludes me somehow, but I for one am not flaterred – are so cocksure of our “facts” as though we had our own class of facts, as opposed presumably to the class of “facts” of others BTL in WoS threads.

      Of course one man’s “conventional orthodoxy” is another’s woo-woo. People can look at the same “facts” and come to widely different conclusions. I don’t particularly feel the need to defend myself against your hurty feelz about me using invective. You must not have much experience of WoS if you’ve never noticed invective in use. Perhaps you’re used to something more genteel?

      I don’t really understand your last paragraph. As even the somewhat odd Ruby was able to discern by the simple expedient of reading up thread a bit and taking in to account the recent history of the site, the point of my contribution and Hatuey’s original one which I was supporting, was that it was important to face the moon howlers down, whether in this place, or just more generally in society.

      I don’t think it’s that hard to understand as a concept.

    487. Ian Brotherhood says:

      Further evidence that the authorities responsible for assessing the efficacy of meds, and keeping tabs on side effects, are actively concealing the truth…

      ‘If my understanding of this situation is correct, the mass vaccination program should be immediately halted until the safety data is gathered, cleaned, and examined. We cannot tolerate a misleading statement of “vaccines are safe and effective” in the face of regulatory agencies defining away the responsibility of performing the risk analysis needed to verify safety. The CDC leadership should be immediately replaced and investigated, and independent analysts should reformulate the task of tracking vaccine safety results.’

      Matthew Crawford.

    488. Ruby says:

      Andy Ellis says:
      11 December, 2021 at 9:10 pm
      @John Main 7.07 pm

      I’d agree we maybe can’t agree on what constitutes reason. I see from further up thread (3.57 pm) Ruby wonders why Hatuey, me and for some strange reason Niclola Sturgeon – the association eludes me somehow, but I for one am not flaterred – are so cocksure of our “facts” as though we had our own class of facts


      Let me try and help you out with that one Andy Pandy.

      Try dictatorial, narcissistic, cocksure.

      Basically people who could never ever entertain the possibility that they could be wrong.

      You, Hautey & Sturgeon.

      I’m calling you a narcissistic, cocksure dictatorial cunt and the best you can come up with for me is to describe me as ‘somewhat odd!’

      Would that be ‘a somewhat odd moon-howling crackpot?’

      Even then it’s a bit pathetic!

      owooooo! owooooo!

    489. Andy Ellis says:

      @Hatuey 7.42 pm

      You’re welcome. As you note it’s passing strange that the likes of the anti-vaxxer nutter fringe are trying to “dictate to those that remain, telling us what ideas are and aren’t acceptable, is really quite staggering when you think about it.”

      The content used to be the main attraction of this place as you correctly noted. When there were lots of comments, it didn’t really matter if there was a leavening of moon howlers, as they were diluted by the good folk who would have pointed and laughed with us at contributors casually calling the USA the Great Satan, spouting a-scientific woo woo about vaccination, or fluffing their other fringe beliefs like Scotland is a colony, or the franchise should be restricted.

      They’re certainly very touchy about being ridiculed for their woo-woo: it’s pretty reminiscent of how Trump supporters in the USA and brexiteers and UKIP’ers here in the UK reacted to those who called them out for their regressive beliefs. Of course it doesn’t really signify that much at this point: they have a false sense of their own importance in here because most of the adults have already left the building.

    490. Andy Ellis says:

      @Ruby 9.58 pm

      Oh, but I’m happy to admit when I’m wrong Ruby: for example I was willing to give you the benefit of the doubt at one point that you weren’t an utter moon howler, but I think that ship just sailed.

      Like so many of your hard of thinking companeros in here you’re just another foul mouthed no-mark, who seems to spend most of their limited brain capacity whingeing about Hatuey and me in here, rather than contributing anything of any value.

      It’s a bit sad and stalkerish to be honest.

    491. Craig Murray is against Alba`s rejection of self id.

      Would like to see him explain why he thinks giving any man free access to female safe spaces is okay.

    492. Ruby says:

      Andy Ellis says:
      11 December, 2021 at 10:22 pm
      @Ruby 9.58 pm

      Oh, but I’m happy to admit when I’m wrong Ruby: for example I was willing to give you the benefit of the doubt at one point that you weren’t an utter moon howler, but I think that ship just sailed.

      Like so many of your hard of thinking companeros in here you’re just another foul mouthed no-mark, who seems to spend most of their limited brain capacity whingeing about Hatuey and me in here, rather than contributing anything of any value.

      It’s a bit sad and stalkerish to be honest.


      That’s better!

      Is everyone apart from yourself & Hautey a foul mouthed, no mark
      with limited brain capacity?

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