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Our enemies among us

Posted on May 14, 2020 by

There’s a great quote from one of the founders of the SNP that Yes types are fond of using in response to the endless onslaught of brainless Unionist accusations that the independence movement is “anti-English”.

But we had no suspicion of just how remarkably true it was until now.

Since the defining feature of Scottish politics since 2007 has been the utter hatred of the SNP from all three Unionist parties but especially Scottish Labour, we thought it’d be an interesting experiment to see how much of their opposition was actually hostility to independence rather than just to the SNP.

So we asked how voters would feel about the idea if independence could somehow guarantee the end of the SNP, providing the opposition parties with their only prospect of actually winning an election and taking power in the forseeable future, given that they currently trail in the polls by a staggering 30 points.

And the headline answer surprised us a bit.

From a 50/50 dead heat for the standard indy question, Yes actually slipped behind. The number of Don’t Knows more than trebled from 7% to 24%, but of those with a firm opinion No took a 53-47 lead.

And that didn’t seem to make much sense.

Because the number of Tories who’d vote Yes in an SNP-less Scotland more than doubled, from 4% to 9%, and the number of Tory DKs – ie those now willing to at least seriously consider it – trebled. Lib Dem support grew by a quarter (from 12% to 15%), and DKs almost sextupled, from just 4% to a whopping 23%.

Unexpectedly, among Labour voters – whose party hates the Nats the most – there was much less movement. The Yes vote didn’t change at all, and DKs went up, but to less than double – 11% to 20%.

But that’s still a significant net Unionist shift to Yes, which starting from a 50/50 base ought to have put it well into the lead. So how come the numbers went backwards?

You might want to sit down for this next bit.

Because the number of SNP voters who’d be willing to sacrifice the party’s own power in the name of independence plummeted from 82% to just 59%.

Nothing in the question said that there wouldn’t or couldn’t be a new party or parties formed by ex-SNP people to contest the new general election that would follow the government stepping down, only that it wouldn’t be the SNP.

But the stunning finding of the poll is that if the SNP promised to disband after winning and implementing independence, it would be SNP voters, not Unionists, who would deliver a second No victory in the new indyref.

And if that’s how prevalent that attitude is among the SNP’s voters, who have no direct vested interest in the party being in power, we invite readers to contemplate how common it’s likely be among the party’s elected representatives and payroll, whose very livelihoods depend on it.

The startlingly antagonistic attitude towards possible new indy parties shown not only by the SNP itself but by the supposedly pro-independence “new media” has always seemed to be fixated on keeping the SNP in power at all costs, even if the party showed no meaningful interest in achieving its supposed primary goal.

But the extent to which that blindly tribal loyalty has taken hold is exposed for the first time by these figures. The electoral success of the SNP has, in a bizarre paradox, become the biggest obstacle to the party achieving the one thing it was created for.

It turns out that for voters as well as politicians, the taste of victory and power is just too delicious and addictive to give up. As ever, old Eric Blair called it:

We’ve got a real problem here, folks.

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    1. 14 05 20 12:56

      Our enemies among us | speymouth

    277 to “Our enemies among us”

    1. Sharny Dubs says:

      Today’s article in the National re: Cherry is physical proof, if proof is needed.

      As Breeks posted last night, we should be taking our case to the UN and f*#k these bastards.

    2. Republicofscotland says:

      I think some of your previous threads pointed out that the SNP have become comfortable in power, and that they want to remain in power by providing adequate policies, just enough to placate the masses.

      Independence cannot be allowed to interfere with that long term goal. Keeping the public onside is crucial though and independence sound bites are the key to this, by telling the public, especially the indy support see what they want to hear.

      In reality the SNP needs to be held to account on the indy question. List vote parties help somewhat in removing unionist trash from Holyrood, but more needs to be done, a clear out of the SNP heirarchy for one.

      Sturgeon has been seduced by power.

    3. Bob Mack says:

      It’s really very tribal. It indicates that a sense of belonging to the party, is more important than the supposed ultimate aim of belonging to that party.

      Who else is there though?

    4. PRJ says:

      The question its self doesn’t question the makeup of the other party’s. The thought that either Labour or Tory (in their current state)can become the party in power is not something I would want. Because of that possible scenario, I can understand why people made their choice. In reality, the political makeup of Scotland will be completely different making your question mute.

    5. Ruglonian says:

      “blind tribal loyalty” – now where have we seen that before?

      With the startling number of demographic party member shift around the IndyRef, it’s not a leap to say that there are more ‘old’ Labour members now in the SNP than the ‘old’ SNP members that got the party to such previous heights.
      Bringing their hubris with them, it appears.

      That there was some in the SNP who embraced this influx as wholly positive and a personal reflection on themselves, rather than as a reason to ensure the institution was structurally robust enough to withstand any possible entryism, is a dereliction of duty in my opinion.

      I’m glad that I don’t bear the shame of being a member.

    6. Mike Lothian says:

      Err, based on the way _I_ read the question, I absolutely wouldn’t want Scotland ran by the Scottish Tories, Scottish LibDems or Scottish Labour

      Your question didn’t say those people could set up a new party

      I mean if Jackson Carlaw was going to be First Minister and just do what Boris said anyway, why bother being Independant?

      It was a stupid question – the SNP gives us a glimpse at what Scotland could look like when it’s independent, I’m not entirely sure what about SelfID or Nicola that’s made you turn on the SNP so spectacularly – but it’s not helping us get independence

    7. Republicofscotland says:

      Sharny Dubs.

      Yes here’s the article, stifling the indy debate needs to stop.

      https://www.thenational.scot/news/18447392.joanna-cherry-hits-snp-sources-debate-criticism/

    8. Andy Ellis says:

      Power is the ultimate aphrodisiac. The SNP in power provides the ideal proof in so many ways:

      – The influx of (chiefly) former Scottish Labour activists and office holders deprived of their former slam-dunk sinecures who have hitched their wagon to the SNP

      – the one-issue extremists who have managed to parasitise the party from within to enforce their woo-woo views by manipulating taxpayer funding and “public” consultations

      – the dreary grey-suited mediocrities and managerialist has-beens and never-weres producing stodgy insomnia fodder like the Growth Commission

      – the born again closeted Daddies and their sophomoric woke posse of misogynistic Red Guards trying to enforce their regressive agenda.

      The tragedy of the Yes movement in Scotland is that it doesn’t consist of discrete parties offering different platforms, it consists of one political elephant in the SNP, a Green Parys mouse and sundry other insignificant political fauna. The SNP leadership and useful idiots like Peter Bell and his ilk who still see them as the only game in town are utterly incapable of imagining an alternative, still less ensuring such an alternative emerges.

      The days of the joyful 2014 Yes movement “big tent” are far behind us now. The responsibility for that doesn’t lie at the feet of the broader Yes movement and individual supporters and activists, it lies squarely with the current SNP leadership and those sections of the activist base who exhibit the kind of behaviours called out by Joanna Cherry in her piece in the National today. I’d like to think she and her supporters can turn the party around, but I have my doubts.

      Meantime it’s more urgent than ever to look at alternatives, whether Collette Walker’s IfSP, a Wings Party or something with Alex Salmond and others.

      What else do we have to lose?

    9. Ron Maclean says:

      @Mike Lothian 11:44am

      Self ID and Nicola aren’t helping us get independence.

    10. Alec Lomax says:

      The enemy of Scottish nationalism is Scotland in Union.

    11. Bob Mack says:

      @Mike Lothian,

      “The SNP gives us a glimpse of what Scotland could look like independent”

      Not sure if that’s a great selling point given what we now know!!

    12. defo says:

      We got a problem, but you know the solution , maybe the only solution.

      A real independence party, broad church, single unifying goal.

      New media can make it work.

      If you fancy a wee bit schadenfreude before lunch… Sweeney’s on his tod. Almost.
      Auntie weeps for him

      http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-scotland-politics-52661687?intlink_from_url=https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/scotland&link_location=live-reporting-story

    13. Andy Ellis says:

      @ Mike Lothian 11.44

      Surely one of the huge positives of indy would be that we can look forward to a totally new political party environment? I doubt folk will be content with old wine in new bottles, but by the same token why shouldn’t Carlaw, Rennie, Leonard etc. be entitled to look forward to participating in a post-indy Scottish political establishment?

      I’m sure the SNP will remain important if not dominant after indy is achieved, but it’s also very likely that large sections of their support will either return to “new” centre right / liberal / left wing parties. however they are constituted. It is also possible (hopefully even probable…?) that new political actors might emerge representing other interests, Senior citizens, islanders, students or others.

      Many of us have turned away from the SNP over the past few years for a variety of reasons. Your statement that it doesn’t help us achieve independence hinges on the (in our view wholly mistaken) belief that the SNP are the only game in town.

      The past 5 years and more recent events have shown us that the faith based trust you and many others have in the SNP as the only vehicle to deliver independence is misplaced.

    14. SilverDarling says:

      We see that here all the time with people who essentially say ‘I’ve been a member since ’19 oatcake…I’ll never desert them’.They question others commitment to Independence but their commitment first and foremost is to the SNP.

      Alex Salmond took advantage of the opportunities that came his way as soon as possible. He knew and understood the whimsical nature of the voter. Not this lot though they think they can hang on forever.

      Look at Wishart saying he’s been working for Independence for decades when in fact he has been working for the SNP for decades. All those ‘grass root’ activists who now have a party role that gives them the status and stability they crave – they won’t give that up in a hurry. The SpAds, the ex-journo Comms people. They want to be attached to power.

      And finally the toxic wokies who have a direct line to create government policy – they won’t give that up either.

      We really really need a new party.

    15. shug says:

      There will always be plants within the party. It is the job of the security services and their of shoots.
      Given the size of the SNP vote it is clear that many former labour, conservative and lib dem now support the idea of independence.
      Any disagreements come from the fact these new supporters and ‘soft’ nationalists have different priorities.
      Existing nationalists, the core voters, are hard core will probably support instant independence regardless of the economy, a republic, possibly socialist, land transfer (large estates) and so on.
      I think the reality is we need to keep converting the opposition by pushing the centre ground to independence.
      Core labour and conservatives are the same and will not move.
      Nicola’s approach is to keep pushing and every time it is opposed by London more of the middle ground see it as unreasonable and move to support the SNP.
      Next year will be the decider.
      A new party is a great idea but if we do not get 50% of Scots voting for independence would you want it? It would us make no better than Ulster with a minority in charge gerrymandering the vote.

    16. Peter A Bell says:

      What is this anti-SNP campaign about if not a craving to usurp some of the political power the party has gained? What is the purpose of impugning impure motives to the SNP if not to bolster a claim that the cunning plan party candidates have only the purest of motives.

      Are there any lengths to which the cunning plan parties will not go in their lust for the letter ‘MSP’ after their names? Is there any price they would baulk at having Scotland pay to allow them their “taste of victory and power”?

    17. susan says:

      I just don’t know what to say Stu, it’s a disturbing poll response. Looks like the SNP HAS been deflected away from it’s raison d’être, probably by the post 14 influx.

    18. Helen Yates says:

      I’m so glad I’d already resigned myself to never seeing Independence in my lifetime, the only bright side in that analysis is that 59% of SNP voters are more in favour of Indy than the party. I know where my votes won’t be going in future and that’s all I can say on the subject.
      We truly are fucked.

    19. Ruglonian says:

      @Bob Mack – spot on!
      This is precisely why the actions and directions that the SNP currently choose to prioritise have an effect on how lots of folk view the prospect of independence – they don’t like some stuff about the SNP now, so why would they give them the power to shape our whole country?!

      @Andy Ellis – don’t disagree with a single word of either of your posts (and I recognised the lyric).
      I think that’s comment-worthy because it literally never happens, here or anywhere else 😀

    20. lothianlad says:

      I Have been, like many, an SNP member for decades, and id like to think I’m not that old!
      However, I kept my membership, just so I could eventually get the chance to vote out the careerists and opportunists!

      I saw a long time ago in Midlothian how the SNP were morphing into the arrogant self seeking careerist that the labour party were years before!

      The Midlothian MP who is an absolute careerist only grudgingly mentions independence to keep the party activists happy.

      Surrounded by other carrerists who ensure they are alphabetically ranked to gain council seats, this MP has reaped the benefits of lucrative MP salary, generous expences and gold plated pension!

      Not only is this paid for by the public, it was secured under false pretences by those who for years actively campaigned for Independence and prepared the way for careerists like him to reap the benefits.

      The SNP should not take this support for granted. This MP was rejected by the electorate in 2017. only for him to put together a flash portfolio to the members for reflection in 2019.

      The point is that the SNP are sadly the hindrance to our countries freedom not the vehicle for making it happen. Midlothian is not an isolated example.

      The way sturgeon and the careerists have controlled the SNP is border line criminal.

    21. Newburghgowfer says:

      For me this is the failure of the Party. The Party and followers keep on saying the Party will disband once Independence is gained.

      Well voters who swither who don’t know what Scotland will look like Politically are always going to either sit on the fence or keep on voting for Status Quo.

      If a New Party was formed and said we were going to align politically like Nordic Countries do as a model we might get people more interested in what Scotland future could be.
      At the moment the Scottish Naive Party winning formula is like the Unionists is to promise everything but give nothing( In the case of mandates for Independence)
      The Unionist HQ in England don’t even have to get serious candidates in Scotland as to have a Party that manages a budget so well for them it would be a no brainer to put up decent opposition.
      The Unionist Parties have Scotland exactly where they want and for all the SNP grandstanding on how well they do in Elections!

      Are we any further forward with Independence?
      I would say 100% No

    22. Bob Mack says:

      The WHO have gathered numbers for I would suggest two reasons.
      1. They mitigate for the excesses of Westminster austerity.

      2. More people have considered independence as an option.

      Anyone. _____ What is now to core aim of the SNP ? Is it independence?

    23. Clive Scott says:

      If you think indy can be achieved by any party other than the SNP you have been drinking too much or indulging in other mind altering substances recently.

    24. robertknight says:

      Said it before…

      The biggest obstacle to an Indy Scotland is the SNP under the current leadership.

      Too many career Troughers and Carpetbaggers in their ranks.

      Peter Bell. You’re delusional I’m afraid if you think that Indy will be delivered by the SNP in its current form. Just more jam tomorrow… provided that Boris agrees of course!

    25. liz says:

      It seems to me that the Scottish voter is a bit like a pet dog. Loyalty is the big issue for them/us.

      I used to have screaming arguments with my best friend about her inability to see SLAB for what they are/were.
      She would never vote for anyone else, ever.

      It now seems as though SNP have inherited the same voters.
      I am always critical of any party.
      About 2/3 years ago, I started to doubt NSs willingness to push for indy. I had believed her when she said, next year, next year, another mandate etc.

      When I voiced these doubts to fellow members, friends I had made since 2014, they would hear of it. They would hear no criticism of saint Nicola and they still wont.
      Read twitter, praising her to the skies over her handling of Covid which at best has been marginally better that WM.

    26. Merkin Scot says:

      “Are there any lengths to which the cunning plan parties will not go in their lust for the letter ‘MSP’ after their names?”
      .
      Apparently not. The Salmond case showed that.

    27. Julia Gibb says:

      I would read it differently. The structure of the question could suggest/imply that the field would be open to the old guard being left to run Scotland. The thought of a permanent Red,Yellow and blue alliance probably horrified most of those SNP voters polled.

      It may not have explicitly ruled out another replacement party but it certainly wasn’t a clear option.

      I am YES first but I suspect I would have read the question as a choice between Independence under the Unionist Gang (which would have been fake) or don’t know.

    28. Ottomanboi says:

      Short of a coup d’état Scottish politics looks locked down in stasis.
      The history of England is one of cultural expansion that of Scotland the total reverse.
      The fact that this comment in written in the language of the English is proof of that.
      Until the Scots take a handful of of leaves out the English rule book and get serious, really serious that stasis may well persist.
      Know thine enemy has never been more apposite.
      Individual English may not be the enemy but from a collective, historic perspective many might beg to differ. There was little ‘voluntary’ about the British empire.

    29. kininvie says:

      Maybe it’s simply because SNP voters appreciate the stuff the SNP has done outwith the independence debate?

      Remember the party’s constitution has two aims, not one. Independence is one, furtherance of all Scottish interests is the second.

      Like it or not, independence is therefore not the sole reason for the party’s existence

    30. Brotyboy says:

      @defo at 11.52

      Deep joy. Thank you.

    31. Lorna Campbell says:

      Or it shows that voting for the SNP is not reflected in votes for independence. Many are perfectly happy to vote SNP, probably because they are happy with the domestic agenda and the way that the SNP has mitigated many of the UKG’s policies: free prescriptions; university fees, etc. Take these away and independence becomes less of a draw for very many voters, both independence supporters and Unionists who vote SNP in the Scottish Elections. If the SNP is not there to deliver what people have become accustomed to, they don’t want independence with any other party that might not be so open-handed, perhaps?

      Perhaps the study showed have asked, after the other questions: if another party, with similar domestic policies to the SNP – free tuition fees, free prescriptions, removal of bedroom tax, etc. – were to arise, would you vote for independence in those circumstances? The only people who would be put neither up nor down by the loss of these ‘freebies’ would be the wealthiest and most able to look after themselves – i.e. Tories. That does not preclude a careerist element within the actual party itself, of course, quite happy to coast along. That will not be possible, though, after Brexit, and certainly not after this pandemic when everyone – well, almost everyone – will be put through the wringer of financial austerity on a scale never seen before, with the parallel loss of working conditions, rights, and so on, necessary to keep Brexit on course. Playing within the system is a cul de sac; it always was.

    32. Alec Lomax says:

      Clive Scott;
      Exactly.
      I wonder when this sooper-dooper new party is starting up.
      I won’t hold my breath.

    33. ahundredthidiot says:

      Now we know how Rome controlled Gaul for so long.

      We’re living it.

    34. Andy Ellis says:

      Interesting to read Peter Bell’s (entirely predictable) response. The sense of entitlement is nonetheless something to behold. Other parties – dismissively labelled “cunning plan parties” of course – are “usurping” power which is rightly the prerogative of SNP. Really? So much for the progressive social democratic alternative, huh….? Attitudes like that seem more Ancien Regime than anything else.

      The new party’s prospective candidates can’t have pure motives….presumably only the SNP consists of plaster saints?

      For what it’s worth, the price many of us would pay for a “taste of victory and power” would be depriving unionist sentient spam of list seats in Holyrood and ensuring that the SNP leadership and the twitler youth they appear to be beholden to get a political bloody nose. I’d go a long way to prevent the unsavoury cabal around those attacking Joanna Cherry and Joan McAlpine getting anywhere near power.

    35. Bob Mack says:

      @Andy Ellis,

      Well said Andy.

    36. robertknight says:

      Ottomanboi @ 12:29

      Don’t confuse “English” with “British”…

      Plenty of Jocks on the make were happy to hitch a ride on the coat-tails of English expansionism – both within the British Isles and elsewhere.

      The trouble is there still exists a significant number in Scotland who remain willing to be bought and sold for English gold, and in doing so hide themselves behind a Union Flag to attempt to legitimise their behaviour. I could name names, but why bother… we see them and their ilk every day.

      See the poster image at the start of the article – a lack of imagination and/or selfish, opportunistic greed. That’s what we’re up against!

    37. shug says:

      It was interesting to read that Gerry Adams has been found not guilty of escaping from Longkesh as he should not have been there in the first place!
      On top of that British soldiers are now being investigated for shooting people back in the 1970, they are now pensioners and one in the Royal Hospital at Chelsey.
      Westminster have given letters of comfort to all former IRA members.
      Personally, I have no issue with dropping all cases, it was history and we need to move on. However it is about time I here this irony being put to unionists who blindly support Westminster, the same people waiving union jacks and wearing poppies.
      Westminster has betrayed the loyalty of these soldiers and has done a deal with the IRA.
      Every time you hear a Unionist on here of other forums challenge them on it.
      This is about undermining their loyalty, making them realise Westminster are playing them and simply can’t be trusted to tell you the time of day.

    38. susan says:

      Well said @Andy Ellis!

    39. Breeks says:

      I don’t actually care too much about the details of who is actually in power in Scotland. Frankly, if I never set eyes upon another political gobshite for the next 100 years, I’ll be over the moon about it. Whoever wins in Scottish elections is a fence to be jumped when we come to it.

      Right now I care passionately about who I DON’T want in power, who’s hands I want to see removed from power, and that is the rotten UK BritNat Establishment which sucks the life force, wealth, and potential out of Scotland. Scotland is the victim of a crime, a horrendous crime of great, almost unimaginable proportion, the unspeakable theft of our sovereign liberty, and the lesser status we have to endure because it has yet to be returned.

      The Union STOLE Scotland’s sovereignty, and it is to justice we must look, not choice, but simple JUSTICE, we must look to, to see that sovereignty properly returned to it’s rightful, lawful, owner.

      A referendum delivers a choice. Justice, requires judicial process and the force of law. I am vexed why we care so much about the importance of the lesser, ephemeral benchmark of a democratic moment in time, and yet fully abandon the latter, stricter and more exacting permanent benchmark, and ignore it in every respect. It’s a paradox I genuinely do not understand. I am so bewildered by that unfathomable paradox, that sometimes I wonder if I am a different species to the rest of you. Maybe I’m defective in some way. Is there some design fault in my head that alters the way I see things? What is it am I missing? Are there land mines and trip wires surrounding me that others can see but to which I am blind???

      You want freedom, well there it is! Ripe for the taking. What keeps you??? Step forward into the light.

      Even the horse which you can lead to water but cannot make to drink is a tension I can fully process without losing a wink of sleep over. But Scot’s who want Independence but will not take it when it’s right there in front of them… Nope. I am baffled. I am Vulcan. I am Dr Spock on the Starship Enterprise, trying to figure out the profoundly illogical nature of humans.

    40. Confused says:

      by synchronicity –
      https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-scotland-politics-52661687
      “A former Labour MP has spoken about being unemployed for the first time and having to apply for universal credit during the coronavirus lockdown.”

      – question is : why did he not just, join the SNP?

      I suppose this is what most of them fear.

      He could start a blog.

    41. Milo says:

      All parties and pressure groups suffer from this sort of thing. People end up with more loyalty to the means than the very end which they set out to achieve.

      It’s why I think the new Wings party, assuming it happens, should stick to the cause of independence alone, keeping all other issues and political ideas out of the equation.

      I’ll be up front and say that I probably have very little in common with most of the independence movement when it comes to things like politics and economics.

      The same mixed loyalties and contradictions you point to here are exaggerated massively in supposedly socialist organisations, more so than any other.

      Yes, I’m sure you get that sort of stuff too in the conservative party, etc., but the difference is that conservatives aren’t selling themselves as angels who are above corruption, cronyism, troughism, etc., and that’s the thing that sticks in my craw.

      Getting back to the SNP, I forecast that many of the problems we see now will disappear when Sturgeon steps down. My expectation is that she will step down sooner rather than later, most probably this year.

    42. ahundredthidiot says:

      Re the the 82% down to 59% for Yes amongst SNP voters.

      It could be argued it is only a 6% difference in No votes, up from 9% to 15% reflected in Q6 to Q15 respectively (granted, this omits DKs, but so does the 82 to 59).

      Probably doesn’t change the overall assumption.

    43. Ron Maclean says:

      @kininvie 12:33 pm

      Overlooking the GRA etc, the SNP as the Scottish government do reasonably well and get paid more than reasonably well. At Westminster, for example, they do very well by doing very little.

    44. CameronB Brodie says:

      This is largely the result of how humans become emotionally attached to ideology and power, and what happens when you place politics above the law.

      The Biology of Political Behavior: An Introduction
      https://digitalcommons.unl.edu/cgi/viewcontent.cgi?article=1028&context=poliscifacpub

    45. Bob Mack says:

      @Breeks,

      In actual fact Breeks our independence was sold to England who bought it just as you could on E Bay. Illegally sold yes, but nonetheless sold by those who craved to hang on to their wealth ,position and power.

      Some things don’t change.

    46. ahundredthidiot says:

      Shug @ 12:55

      a bit like the sugar coating narrative I heard on the documentary the old man was watching the other day where 5 RTR (Desert Rats) – after fighting Rommel for 3 years and 69 days – were given two weeks leave and dumped in a shit-hole camp in the arse end of Nottingham-shire, when every other squaddie was getting 2 weeks every three months, in Town.

      The UK Government doesn’t care about it’s ex-servicemen and women.

    47. Osakisushi says:

      I’ve long thought, if SLAB in Scotland came out in favour of indie, or even if the SCU came out, it would prove a disaster for the SNP.

      However, your poll regarding tribal loyalty tends suggest this is bollocks.

      The primary reason I’ve always voted SNP was indie. Even with their absurd “trough” officials, at an election they are the only choice against the unionist parties.

      We need another indie party to get its feet under the table, at least to prep for the day when the SNP implode, as per Slab.

    48. Jimmock says:

      Stuart, I think you misinterpret these voters attitude. The implication made or the inference drawn is that post independence there would be no left wing or even social democrat party to vote for. Scotland would be, like England, a country ruled by parties ranging from right of centre to extreme right wing. I would still vote for independence with the thought that someone would surely start a truly social democratic alternative to the three right wing parties, but not everyone sees it my way.

    49. jfngw says:

      If you had asked me the final question above the immediate thought in my head would have been of Richard Leonard, Jackson Carlaw or, god forbid, Willie Rennie as FM. I think I would feel some qualms about Scotland’s future. It gets worse if I imagine Annie Wells or James Kelly as finance secretary, Aaaaaargh!

    50. CameronB Brodie says:

      Mike Lothian
      “It was a stupid question – the SNP gives us a glimpse at what Scotland could look like when it’s independent, I’m not entirely sure what about SelfID or Nicola that’s made you turn on the SNP so spectacularly – but it’s not helping us get independence”

      It is political ignorance of this sort that suggests you are the sort of individual who has destroyed the SNP as a political force. Might I suggest you leave politics to those of us who aren’t authoritarian misogynists.

      Biology and ethics: the paradoxes of the natural
      https://www.gfmer.ch/Endo/Lectures_09/biology_and_ethics.htm

    51. Corrado Mella says:

      Entropy is a bitch, folks.

      After reaching its scope, everything degrades to a point it becomes useless.

      This is an inescapable law of nature, and is valid for all that’s around and inside you.

      The SNP has reached the apex of its cycle of evolution, its raisón d’ètre (power) and is starting to degrade.

      Meanwhile the Scottish Independence movement hasn’t reached its apex yet (Independence) so it’s on a different trajectory.

      As a consequence, the Scottish Independence movement needs a new vector.

      It piggybacked on Scottish Labour when it could deliver Devolution, it piggybacked on the SNP when it could entrench it, now that it needs a final leap it needs a new step.

      The SNP brought us so far, but it’s evident that after 6+ years nothing has moved.

      Without rancour nor regret, it’s time to disembark the boat at the safe port we are now and build a new vessel.

      It may take a bit more, but flogging a dead horse won’t lead us anywhere else.

    52. Dog biscuit says:

      Peter A Bell, what is Nicola Sturgeons plan for Independence? And why not a share of the fruits of power for anyone else? Must it only be the SNP allowed a bite of the cake? I ask Again,what is Nicola Sturgeons plan for Independence?

    53. Stuart MacKay says:

      Newburghgowfer @12:18pm

      Well, a good chunk of the country would be up for returning to their Nordic roots.

      @shug, @liz, @Andy Ellis and others thanks for for all the insightful comments.

      Seems we have a lot of the pieces to sort this out. As shug and Newburghgowfer said we need to take independence as a goal out of the hands of the parties and make it aspirational. I’m sure even Joe would up for getting more say over his own affairs.

      The AUOB marches always had a strong aspirational feel which is probably why the Scottish Nicola Party never really embraced them.

      How to do that without having to start over is the problem.

    54. Ron Maclean says:

      Yesterday Stuart Campbell publicly raised serious questions which cast doubts on the integrity of the Scottish justice system. The probity of that system will be brought further into doubt if his concerns are ignored. It appears that within that system some people are being treated less favourably than others. At the very least by now there should have been a statement from the Cabinet Secretary for Justice assuring Stuart Campbell that the points he raised would be fully investigated and the outcome broadcast.

    55. defo says:

      My pleasure Brotyboy.
      Fair brightened my day too.
      Many more to follow I hope.
      Power broker to P45 in a flash.
      Obviously this particular idiot isn’t useful enough.

      Belldrick seems to be in a tizzy.
      Cunning plan! Ffs!
      🙂

    56. James says:

      Ruglonian says:
      14 May, 2020 at 11:43 am
      “I’m glad that I don’t bear the shame of being a member.”

      That’s a pretty stupid comment to make. There are thousands of well meaning people in the SNP who have campaigned for Scottish independence for years.

    57. jfngw says:

      You just have to laugh at the BBC reporting Jackson Carlaw. He has demanded the R number is published every day, they then run a report that states it takes 56 hours to complete the work and run the software. At no point do they point out Carlaw’s nonsense, maybe he wants to know the progress of the program, ‘What line number is it processing now?’

    58. Dog biscuit says:

      The parties at Holyrood have broadly the same political aims The cosy cabal of Establishment Scots dont want ‘upstarts sitting on lucrative committees etc. No word from Peter yet on Mzzz Sturgeons plans for Independence?

    59. Muscleguy says:

      And of course all the SNP voters and members who throw their List votes away in defiance of mathematical reality. cf scotgoespop for an SNP tribal defiance of mathematics.

      In pointless debate with him the best he could do was claim despite the polling they were not guaranteed a plurality of constituencies. Can’t be bothered asking him now even with them at 54%.

      I predict a vast majority of SNP votes on the list.

    60. Graeme says:

      Well said Andy

      I tried politely disagreeing with Peter yesterday on his own blog and got and got a real verbal tirade of abuse and insults for my trouble (not a mistake I intend to make again) it seems to Peter if you disagree with him it’s because your too thick to understood what he said or you’re not using your brain

    61. CameronB Brodie says:

      Mike Lothian
      In fact, it is clear you wish Scots law no longer respects the human genome. As such, yourself and all those in the SNP who share your belief re. self-ID, can not be considered democrats. So the SNP needs to punt idiots like yourself out of the party, if it hopes to protect Scotland from totalitarianism.

      Evolved Morality: The Biology and Philosophy of Human Conscience
      https://brill.com/view/title/24908

    62. Liz g says:

      The plain truth is….
      There has to “BE” other party’s in Holyrood.
      The SNP can’t have “ALL” the seats.
      So the question we need to ask ourselves is….

      *Do we want the Party’s who have the non SNP seats drawn from the Lab,Con & Lib Dem stable* ?

      While considering!

      Did we fail to notice, that the London controlled party’s would not even discuss their direction and ethos should there have been a Yes win in 2014,and wonder why that was ?

      Did the make up of the Smith Commission not demonstrate a wee snap shot of just how the Indy Negotiation may have gone in 2014/15 ?

      And yet some would say “don’t use this Gap to change anything”!
      Well….
      I’d say “we’re all in this to change things.
      That’s the whole bloody point”.

    63. HandandShrimp says:

      Although the question doesn’t preclude a new party I think many might see it as an indication of a return to the old three party system. That isn’t hugely attractive to me or I suspect many here. It may that in an independent Scotland Labour would reinvent themselves and become a positive force but I wouldn’t foresee that happening very quickly.

      I would still vote for independence but I wouldn’t be comfortable with the main proponents leaving us to just get on with it.

    64. jfngw says:

      One thing that has been exposed by the virus is Boris Johnson’s vacuity without his claque drowning everyone out. He is just the front man for those that would be unelectable, an out of depth entertainer dying on his feet without his claqueurs.

    65. CameronB Brodie says:

      Folk tend to think of the world in the short-term, that’s just how we evolved. That’s one of the main reasons the rule-of-law is so important. It prevents present generation from simply making things up as they go along, which tends to make a complete mess of things for future generations.

      Take politics out of the equation, and the question facing Scotland is, does it want to enjoy unfettered access to the international rule of law, or to be governed through legally biased parochialism from Westminster, which is blind to international human rights law?

      Remember, Treaty law is part of “international law”.

      Why customary international law matters in protecting human rights
      https://voelkerrechtsblog.org/why-customary-international-law-matters-in-protecting-human-rights/

    66. John Jones says:

      letter to the national.
      It amazes me how many people, including MPs and MSPs, Pete Wishart being an example, are ignorantof the ways the voting systems work in Scotland.
      There are 3 ways your vote counts, FPTP for MPs, the modified d’Hondt system for MSPsand the local council elections where you have to list candidates by order of preference.
      As to splitting the vote, if a new Indy party is only standing in the list,and going by the last elections, it would only cost the SNP at most 4 MSPs, in the worst case scenario, the proposed gain in pro Indy seats would be substational ensuring a majority and support for the SNP to get treir finger out and do what we put them in for.
      So for all you people who claim to know that a list party will split the vote, find out how the system works, because the Unionist parties certainly use it to their advantage.
      The SNP are only afraid that we’ll see what’s been going on behind the scenes, my message to all the “sources” is put you name to your article if you’re so sure you’re right, there is too much of thie hiding behind anonimity, if you have a criticism have the courage,as others do, to stand up for your convictions.
      Time for us to start making a difference, the YES campaigners have been the backbone of the movement so far, time for the polititians to get up and show some fire, at least name the “sources” who are descrying them.
      There will have to be a major shift in the way the SNP are ,supposedly, trying for independence before they will be getting my vote next year, it will be hard for me to do so, but it is time to cut out the cancer as painfull as it will be. A hard lesson maybe the only way.

    67. cherson says:

      We all know these are unprecedented times. We see for example Alex Salmond who certainly has an issue to be aggrieved about biding his time, waiting for the current emergency to be over before doing anything about it. Wise man and a good example to us all. On the other hand we have those who are currently actively trying to split the vote of the only party which supports independence and has had significant electoral success. Madness. I am not uncritical of the SNP (I’ve never been a member of it or any other party) but we need a broad base for our case to succeed. As has been said elsewhere if I was a cynic I would seriously wonder who and what motivates those trying to drive a wedge between the SNP and independence supporters. I have contributed financially on more than once occasion to this blog which has had an excellent record (second to none) in dealing with the nonsense spouted by the MSM, Unionist politicians and the like. It saddens me to have to say this but I will not be supporting it again unless this current ill-advised course of action changes (which seems doubtful). Thanks for what you did Stu in the past but no more from me.

    68. jfngw says:

      @HandandShrimp

      Part of the problem is the SNP are now attracting too many career politician’s rather than independence supporters. It’s obvious why, if you see politics as a career you will migrate to the one most likely to hold power and at the moment the SNP are the only game in town.

      The result is before your eyes, three other parties with mediocre politicians you wouldn’t trust with the housekeeping never mind a countries finances (I discount the Greens as they are just an opportunist pressure group to my mind). One led by a man with a trail of failed companies, another a union man that tried to mislead Glasgow women workers and finally one that defended the undefendable by protecting someone who had ignored a paedophile.

      I believe a prime example of the dead headedness was amply on display by a Tory MSP on Wednesday’s Politics Scotland (Golden I think was his name).

    69. G H Graham says:

      But it’s not surprising at all, is it?

      Q. Where does the SNP think they drew their tribal fan club from?

      A. Labour’s destructively tribal North British branch office of left leaning, ideological activists & voters course.

      “Meet the new boss, same as the old boss” – Pete Townshend. Or as Otto Von Bismarck quipped, “Being in power is above the law. I am merely stating a fact.”

    70. Robert Louis says:

      Yip. Mailed it.

      There it is for all to see, the REAL problem right now, is that way too many, especially within the SNP/parliament payroll, actually are quite happy to just have pretendy powers. Independence is just too much, well, bother, isn’t it?

      I mean consider it this way, you are a middle aged man/woman, with say, two kids, both now going to a very nice expensive school, based upon your 82k salary plus benefits, and free flights and second home/mortgage payments in London. A very nice lifestyle indeed- and you employ your partner in your parliamentary ‘office’. Why would you ever put it at risk for you and them??

      No, instead, it is very easy, to ‘rationalise’ things with yourself, whilst still in denial of your own true motives. You tell yourself, that ‘really, it would be folly to go for indy right now’, or that ‘what is the point of holding an indyref, when less than 60% seem to be in favour’. Instead it is much better to put the onus for driving independence on to ‘others’, the ‘ground troops’, the diehard indy supporters who seem to like going on marches. Once the polls have shifted, then, and only then, should you even consider getting your hands ‘dirty’ with this independence nonsense.

      Much better to just fill your days whinging about Westminster (and indy supporters), than actually do something. You might call it, the ‘wishart’ philosophy.

      The SNP (and especially some of its prominent MP’s in London, England), need a rocket up them. If RevSTU, Alex Salmond or a list indy party can achieve that, then they should get my full support.

      The current SNP leadership and her ‘hingers oan’, are in it for the power and the money. They need reminded just who it is put them into office.

      Robert Burns had it right all those years ago, but I NEVER ever thought I’d have to say it about the SNP;

      ‘For London’s gold they are bought and sold, such a parcel of rogues in a nation.’

      Aye, a right parcel of rogues called the SNP.

    71. CameronB Brodie says:

      cherson
      I respect the foundations of human culture, the SNP currently doesn’t. So they are unlikely to have the correct intellectual or legal perspective to defend Scotland from authoritarian English nationalism (see Brexit).

      Full text.

      The Human, Human Rights, and DNA Identity Tests
      https://journals.sagepub.com/doi/10.1177/0162243917737164

    72. Robert Louis says:

      Open question to those defending the SNP.

      Q. What is the current SNP strategy to achieve Scottish independence?

      I’ll not hold my breath.

    73. lothianlad says:

      Robert Louis

      I mean consider it this way, you are a middle aged man/woman, with say, two kids, both now going to a very nice expensive school, based upon your 82k salary plus benefits, and free flights and second home/mortgage payments in London. A very nice lifestyle indeed- and you employ your partner in your parliamentary ‘office’. Why would you ever put it at risk for you and them??

      Yes Sir Exactly! Midlothian MP completely!

    74. CameronB Brodie says:

      Btw, I’m not suggesting we all support our own flavour of ethnic nationalism, I simply understand why we need to legally respect biology. Unlike English Torydum and the SNP.

      The Foundations of a Human Right to Health: Human Rights and Bioethics in Dialogue
      https://www.hhrjournal.org/2015/06/the-foundations-of-a-human-right-to-health-human-rights-and-bioethics-in-dialogue/

    75. I hope Peter A Bell reads this.

    76. callmedave says:

      BBC figures today:

      Scotland……today…..34……Total…….2007…BBC
      Wales………today…..10……Total…….1164…BBC
      N.Ireland…..today…..05……Total……..454…BBC
      England……. (no data reported yet surprised… not)
      ==========================================================
      UK…………today….428……Total……33421…BBC
      ……………………………………*33614…SUN

    77. susan says:

      I want an Indy list party that will take britnat seats and one that will vote against unscientific SNP woo woo (love that word!). At the moment the only alternative is the Greens and they are even worse. Does anyone else consider the way the GRA Reform and “Hate” crime Bills have been sleekitly tabled disturbingly authoritarian?

    78. Helen Yates says:

      Let’s not forget that Nigel Farage started a new party (the Brexit) party and could possibly have won the election had he not made a deal with Boris and more importantly he did this in three months, the party stood for one thing only Brexit, the same could be done here in Scotland with the right person at the helm.

    79. jfngw says:

      @ Robert Louis

      Just imagine you became an MP in 2001 till 2024, that’s a rather nice annual pension of between £39k or £49k depending on the contribution level you chose. Plus of course the resettlement grant and the winding up allowance when you go.

    80. Daisy Walker says:

      An interesting question to pose.

      I’m not sure the results are as controversial as they appear – the rallying cries of ‘lend us your vote, united we stand, only the SNP can deliver, etc’ – as well as being substantially correct for the most part, have also been very prolific and powerful… as our enemies are fully aware.

      The weakness of this course of conduct is it enables those who have been nobbled to operate within an environment where no-one can shout out a warning, or shine a light on behaviour which is fully opposed to the aim of Indy.

      I see a great big opportunity for the Indy movement – and it is the Holyrood election – the 2 vote/list seat opportunity enables people to vote for a back up, all their eggs don’t need to be in one party basket. Indy candidates can become established without going through party vetting.

      I completely understand the argument that standing for the list votes needs a big beast party to head it all up, but I disagree, I think it needs a reputable, well known local person in each area.

      We are going to have to turn negatives into positives at every turn in order to win, and we are going to have to leave to one side, that which is comfortable (i.e. an established party to whom we can be endlessly loyal to).

      If I’m right about the opportunity the Holyrood voting system presents, then the noise against it is going to get significantly louder, and the pipers paid will be blowing the loudest.

    81. Robert Louis says:

      Helen Yates at 251pm,

      Yes, indeed. But we need a person of integrity, that the current SNP leadership do not like, that has a masterful command of their brief, a resounding rapport with the indy movement, with proven track record to deliver on indy promises and the skills and profile needed to really push things to the top of the political agenda.

      Now, tell me, where on earth would we ever find a former First Minister, former MP, former MSP, excellent orator and skilled debater with time on their hands like that??

    82. Ian Brotherhood says:

      I know y’all don’t do The Twitter but this is soo-perb.

      twitter.com/AnneWheaton/status/1260725103769161732

    83. admiral says:

      Helen Yates says:
      14 May, 2020 at 2:51 pm
      Let’s not forget that Nigel Farage started a new party (the Brexit) party and could possibly have won the election had he not made a deal with Boris and more importantly he did this in three months, the party stood for one thing only Brexit, the same could be done here in Scotland with the right person at the helm.

      You forget that Farage had the rabid, right wing press and the BBC at his beck and call.

    84. Andy Ellis says:

      @ Graeme 1.49pm

      Sadly there are all too many in the SNP who are fully paid up “wheesht for indy” acolytes. It’s not that they are necessarily uncritical of elements of the party &/or its policies, they just lack the agility of mind to accept that their faith based position could possibly be questioned, still less actually be in error. Doubtless every mass movement has hard of thinking elements like Peter Bell, James Kelly, Mike Small, Pat Kane and others. Their motivations and hobby horse issues may differ, but their baleful influence on the movement is sadly identical.

      In many respects of course, they are no better than the unionists who othered Yes campaigners in the run up to #indyref1, and in the years since. It is bad enough that you disagree with them, but you have the effrontery not to accept your wrong-thing. As a result you are fair game to be othered and abused. It’s a classic tactic of the US alt-right, men’s movement and campus no-platforming movement.

      That’s why you see such a huge congruence in methods if not actual beliefs between the kind of manichaean trans rights extremists poisoning the SNP, anti-Corbyn New Labour types trying to weaponise any criticism of Israel or support for Palestinian rights as anti-semitism, libertarian nut jobs like Katie Hopkins, British nationalists (both Scots and English) othering indy supporters, and the Scots MSM pursuing a differential approach to its coverage of prevalent unionist extremism in comparison with relatively rare nationalist extremism.

      Folk like Peter Bell have egos a mile wide and a micron deep. His hair trigger recourse to abuse and questioning the intelligence of anyone impertinent enough to disagree with him tells us all we need to know. He’s a one trick pony, and everyone is bored of his USP.

    85. Robert Louis says:

      jfngw at 256pm,

      Exactly. Where else could you get a job easily in Scotland, with such amazing benefits, perks, salary and pension.

      If I were a careers teacher at school, I’d tell kids to forget university or any other career. Being an MP, or MSP is where the money is.

    86. robbo says:

      lothianlad says:
      14 May, 2020 at 2:42 pm
      Robert Louis

      Can i ask ,what is the alternative?I can’t vote tory,i can’t vote labour, and i can’t vote fibdems.
      The greens are not an alternative and mostly only stand in list seats. Also, they would have us back to the horse and cart and force me to carry a handbag! I don’t have a horse and i don’t want to carry a handbag!

      Therefore you see my dilemma , aye?

    87. Wullie B says:

      Personally, I would love to see the death of every political party in an iScotland, no more blind loyalty to the candidate, but more of a push on what that candidate stands for under no obligation of the whip.
      Why should the likes of Murdo Fraser keep getting a place as a tory when he has yet to win an election, this is why term limits should be set for two terms and that is you, thank you very much, now time for a fresh face and a fresh perspective on where Scotland goes from here.
      Denise Findlay tweeted we are doomed, no, we arent, it is a fresh start for a fresh nation and it can be taken in a route totally different to the one it has stumbled along for the past millenia.
      MSPs would have to work for the constituents en masse, or they wouldnt last even a second term, it could and would be a major benefit to every man, woman and child that tribal policies would no longer be sought, but policies that would benefit the masses, and these pressure groups pushing things like the GRA wouldnt have the same clout as they have today, as no MSP would be scared to be booted from their party for not toeing the line,
      So going back to the original point, we need to be brave and imaginative, not beholdent to the keech that has kept the people of Scotland downtrodden since politics began

    88. Capella says:

      OR – they may, like me, think that it would take a few years of negotiating and government to set Scotland on the independence path.
      Have we not in previous threads been bemoaning the fact that all of civic Scotland is stuffed full of unionist plants?

      That may be why they “don’t know”. Maybe it’s the wrong question.

    89. Golfnut says:

      @ Dogs biscuit.

      I’m sure you already have the Freedom protest in your diary but just in case you’ve missed it. From your intemperate rant at Robbo and I on the last thread I feel you will be among friends.

      Britain first seem to be the organisation behind this.

      https://www.facebook.com/groups/215556435841901/permalink/646998869364320/

    90. Phydaux says:

      I used to believe that the SNP, in the run up to 2014, was in the vanguard of the struggle for a political and cultural revolution, leading the development of new ideas. More fool me. They are too busy with their mindless progressivism…I.e. the deeply flawed and pernicious woke crap and hate crime crap, to bother their collective arses to sort out the important stuff, like our justice system as highlighted in Stuart’s last post, a brilliant and eloquent piece of investigative journalism. Our justice system is morally corrupt, neither fair nor just and guided by political expediency.

      One of my friends who voted no in 2014 said her main reason was because she thought the SNP would be in power forever in an Independent Scotland. I tried to tell her that the SNP would disband and new parties formed in the new Scotland. I wanted to believe that and now I don’t. My friend was right.

      IMO, the main reason the SNP hasn’t, since 2014, actively promoted or helped us to envisage or fired up our imagination over what an Indy Scotland might look like is increasingly laid bare…i.e. power. The wee extracts from 1984 give me the heebie jeebies because of the parallels in the here and now. Like Stuart, Eric Blair was a master of language. He knew how so to use his words that they fly directly to the spot that he means them to reach. The simple truth of power being the object of power.

      Think on this SNP. When Alex Salmond reveals his evidential account of those who conspired against him, the “ silent “ evidence not allowed at his trial, once revealed can be the most telling. Any political fallout or upset or disgrace will be nothing as compared to the special variety of fear and alarm he and his family had to endure at the malicious hands of his fellow colleagues.

    91. Al-Stuart says:

      .
      BRILLIANT STUART. ONE OF YOUR BEST ARTICLES YET. THANK YOU.

      Firstly, several Wingers need to raise the matters covered in this essay written here by Stuart Campbell in The National and ALL the MSM plus local and regional press. A nationwide debate beyond this WOS site must be commenced.

      Secondly, R.B. Cunninghamme Graham’s famous quote mentions those without imagination being the enemy of Scotland.

      Ergo, those WITH imagination, to wit, one Stuart Campbell who posits this tectonic plate shifting thesis, is the personification of “imagination”. By logic, Stuart is a friend of Scotland.

      I believe the research and narrative on this page to be amongst the finest written by the Rev. Pure lateral thinking at its best.

      Stuart, you write that we have a problem. Yes we do. But in so elegantly describing that problem, we can work towards a solution.

      Thirdly, there are SOME MSPs in Holyrood that are still principled enough to recognise the dilemma. As a prelature to Alec Salmond’s book and the resultant political tsunami in Scotland headed to ALL of us in this country, it may be wise to start looking at which MSPs within the ranks of the SNP have been infested by GRA Wokeitis, and those that would put Independence before self. Get rid of the Sturgeonite Wokists and retain the latter.

      For example reading debates such as the one I link below may help us discover who is worthy of a vote in the current SNP and who should be receiving their jotters, even if that means motions of deselection at several SNP branches.

      https://www.theyworkforyou.com/sp/?id=2012-06-20.8.0

      If the sleekit TransPervertDickWaiving Brigade who are peado-ing their way into the changing rooms of young girls can fifth column and politically rodger the CURRENT SNP then surely WoS can help with starting a clean out of the CURRENT SNP dross and tra-ctors.

      Stuart, in a strange way, this article has cheered me up immensely. We know Alec is typing away studiously.

      Covid-19 will eventually be abated.

      Then the time will come to work out a way to get from here to the place where Scotland will become independent.

      YES.

    92. Alex says:

      Nothing in the question said that there wouldn’t or couldn’t be a new party or parties formed by ex-SNP people to contest the new general election that would follow the government stepping down, only that it wouldn’t be the SNP.

      That’s, if not a lat out lie, a massive misrepresentation of the truth, Stu.

      “A legally binding commitment to disband” has a very strong implication that there would not be allowed to be a successor SNP body — otherwise its hard to see the commitment being really legally binding

    93. lothianlad says:

      robbo…

      Aye I do see your dilemma. I guess I’m hoping for some organised removal of sturgeon and the careerists in the SNP.

      It will have to happen from within, which is why I’m still a member. Or, perhaps a new Wings Indy party. I definitely share the frustration and anger of some posters on here who are fed up with how the SNP has kicked Independence into the long grass.

    94. Patrick Roden says:

      These poll findings are not in the least surprising, in fact, I’m a bit surprised that so many SNP voters would say they would want to go ahead with independence without the SNP!

      Say you are a mother/father with children and you want independence for Scotland, do you want the complete uncertainty of the SNP disbanding as soon as we are independent? no chance.

      In fact, it was the central tactic of the Better Together campaign, to use project fear to make people feel they were ‘taking a leap into the unknown’ if they voted Yes.

      ‘We don’t know our currency’ ‘how will we defend ourselves’ etc etc.

      SNP voters have grown to trust the SNP to govern Scotland in a far fairer and competent way than Westminster does, and no one could argue with that point, so to ask people to remove that, is to ask such a loaded question as to make these findings silly and irrelevant.

      The other problem is that people can only answer scenario type questions with the information they already have, so with the SNP disbanding, Scotland may be governed by Jackson Carlaw, or Richard Leonard, and for most SNP members that would be a step to far.

      The other issue is that people may interpret the question differently than the way intended, so might be asking themselves if they would vote for independence if the SNP promised to disband or would they rather vote for independence and have them continue to govern the country.

      We have long made the argument on Wings that when we gain our independence that the SNP would be a government of stability for a while then would begin to break into left-wing, right-wing, or liberal parties. Maybe we underestimate how far this thought might have seeped into people’s psyche.

      Finally, it is always a bit of a stretch to take statistical analysis and try to say for certain that the result is a result of whatever cognitive analysis you have decided.

      To further understand these figures you would need to conduct further studies using the same participants, but giving them further options, to get a feel for the reasons they would be willing to put independence on hold if the SNP would immediately disband.

      Sorry to rip your analysis to bits like this Rev, but I just don’t see your interpretations as valid.

    95. Patrick Roden says:

      PS, If you think I need to come in for reprogramming as a result of the comment above, you have my bar code!

    96. Juteman says:

      Things have really went weird when Stu allows Better Together to post articles on his site! Unbelievable!

    97. Doug says:

      My cunning plan of martyrdom still stands.

    98. Capella says:

      It may be that the SNP are having to push the Green agenda on Self ID and the Hate Crime Bill. The SNP rely on Green votes in Holyrood. Do the Greens, who voted down the OBFA, support the Hate Crime Bill? A friend who criticised the HCB on a Green site was immediately condemned as a bigoted TERF. That speaks volumes for the real agenda behind it.

      That makes an alternative list party all the more attractive. There’s no reason why Stu and Alex Salmond and Craig Murray can’t join the ISP. They can stand as candidates on the list. I can think of quite few good candidates. Just because it is set up by two women doesn’t mean men can’t join.

      I find all this moaning about MPs salaries a bit tedious. Yes they should be set at the level of the average wage. It’s not the SNP who decide the salary of MPs. AFAIK they have not accepted salary increases for some years now.

    99. Douglas says:

      I think that’s a very negative view

      I’m not surprised that a large section of the electorate want Independence but would be fearful of it without the SNP

      The SNP need to get their finger out and get on with Independence but it’s clear that fear is a major problem

      Centuries of cringe don’t go away easily but a spell of reasonably capable government has helped

      I’m actually surprised that the numbers of those who would bottle it without the SNP are not greater

      This is why the SNP is relentlessly attacked by all the forces of Unionism

      I think the new Indy Party will help concentrate minds within the SNP leadership cabal and I hope they get on with it

    100. The Oui Coupar says:

      Are IPS the stalking horse?

      Cherry coming up behind flashing the headlights

      Salmond in the back seat

    101. Ian Brotherhood says:

      Peter Bell has called it a day.

      https://peterabell.scot/2020/05/14/im-out/

    102. jfngw says:

      @Capella

      Very egalitarian but I don’t believe AS or CM and probably even SC would see themselves us less than the key players in any party, that’s just not how politicians work.

      Also I don’t think it is the level of salaries that some are concerned about but the unwillingness to give them up.

    103. Andy Ellis says:

      @ Ian Brotherhood 4.02pm

      I saw that too. Judging from his recent behaviour and online melt downs I can’t say I’m surprised. Frankly given his output and the abuse he’s been doling out I doubt many will miss him or his unreasoned opposition to the concept of a list only party. Whether it’s permanent or just a flounce remains to be seen. With luck James Kelly might follow suit and gie us peace? 😀

    104. innocent says:

      @RevStu please seek help, I don’t think you are well

    105. jfngw says:

      @ian Brotherhood

      Shame in my opinion, although he could be less than tolerant of others opinion I don’t just want to read comment I agree with.

      Although his blog to me could be a bit wordy at times, I’m a say what you mean and keep it as short as possible type (I always try to put a spelling mistake and some crap grammar in my comments for consistency).

    106. Jon Drummond says:

      As an SNP member it pains me to say this and believe me I have thought about it long and hard but… right now

      The SNP is the wound and not the bandage.

    107. Sandy says:

      OT

      Has anyone complained to the advertising authority regarding the TV advert maintaining that the Daily Mail is the country’s favourite paper?

    108. CameronB Brodie says:

      The simplest way the SNP can serve Scotland and not themselves, is by institutionalising a legal respect for biology in their constitution. We might actually see some respect for Treaty law and human rights then. Only then can we hope for a proper defense of Scotland’s legal identity from the cultural demands of English nationalism.

      Universal Declaration on Bioethics and Human Rights
      https://www.aaas.org/sites/default/files/SRHRL/PDF/IHRDArticle15/Universal%20Declaration%20on%20Bioethics%20and%20Human%20Rights_Eng.pdf

    109. awizgonny says:

      A few years back I put the scenario of the SNP disbanding once Independence was achieved to a fervid Independence supporter, and they rejected it too. But their reasons were very clear, and nothing to do with power for power’s sake: they believed that the immediate removal of the SNP would allow Lab/Con/Libs to roll back Independence if they took power too soon.

      They also pointed out the fact that, for all its faults, the SNPs sustained lead over the other parties is as much to do with the latter being utter crap as it is to do with Independence, and that competence and good leadership will be crucial in the first years after Independence is secured.

      These are reasonable arguments for SNP voters to be unsure if those terms would be acceptable and, along with the incumbency factor, would certainly account for a significant portion of that drop in support. It’s not just a matter of Orwellian power-play.

      Whether they would actually vote no when it came to it is another matter.

    110. jfngw says:

      Of course even if a list party gains 20 seats it doesn’t really give them any real power, they are still at the mercy of what the SNP decide. All they could do is stop any legislation passing if they hold the balance of power or work with the Britnats to enable alternative legislation (I can’t see independence being on that route)

      The power to go for independence will still primarily sit with the SNP.

      I’m not objecting to the party but we need to be realistic about what it can achieve and not be disappointed if it falls short of what was expected.

    111. Sensibledave says:

      Admiral 3.00pm

      You wrote “ You forget that Farage had the rabid, right wing press and the BBC at his beck and call.”

      Based upon that assessment, I think your other views are invalidated. The notion that the BBC was/is pro Farage is, frankly, laughable.

      What he did was offer a single issue, unfudged, populist alternative to the “establishment”. The establishment couldn’t cope. The single issue breached party lines across the board and caused the kerfuffle that is now part of history.

      The only main party that eventually offered the “populist” view, clearly and without obfuscation, in their manifesto was the Conservatives You know what then happened. We saw the Labour @red walk” voters lend their votes to the tories to get their main priority delivered. Those voters are not “Tories”, they just didn’t want to vote for any of the other parties that refused to represent the result of the referendum. Like him or loathe him, Farage was responsible in great part for creating that outcome.

      The establishment and the BBC hated Farage and his mission to get the UK out of the EU. The outcome was achieved despite the establishment and the BBC.

    112. Capella says:

      @ jfngw – I don’t believe AS or CM and probably even SC would see themselves us less than the key players in any party

      A little humility never hurt anyone. Besides, I can’t think of a better way to annoy the woke bros than for these “political big hitters”, or whatever the current macho term is, than to join a party set up by women. They don’t have to sit quietly and make the tea / type up the minutes while the ladies make all the speeches.

    113. Andy Ellis says:

      @jfngw 4.54pm

      It’s still a fair way until Holyrood 2021 elections. If a week is a long time in politics…..?

      Of course it is possible that the SNP will gain an absolute majority on their own: hard do do with our system, but they’ve proven they can do it and may pull it off again. If so, they will have absolutely no excuse if they then fail to deliver – the question is, unless they’ve made those elections a specific mandate for #indyref2 we could be little further forward.

      Unless you subscribe to Pete Wishart’s magical thinking that Westminster will somehow have an attack of reasonableness and give the SNP everything they want, we could still be in for a long wait. I still see no convincing counter argument from opponents of a list only party, as the maths tends to suggest that a significant vote would only serve to increase the number of pro indy MSPs. What’s not to like?

    114. Sensibledave says:

      CBB 4.44

      … alternatively, instead of all of your typical psycho babble, the voters of Scotland, when asked to cast their vote in a democratic, free and fair referendum, could have voted for Independence. Or does your oft referenced version of “natural law” trump irrelevances like the decisions of actual voters?

      I didn’t vote to leave the EU. I was outvoted. Appeals to academia and authority are baseless … if you want to live in a democracy.

    115. CameronB Brodie says:

      As usual, dave is talking mince. Farage, (as in garage), was a very regular guest on the BBC, who significantly help him punt racist, far-right, politics. They weren’t his only media platform though, and without access to media, it’s incredible hard to get your message heard. Farage had no problems getting his right-wing populism heard, that’s for sure.

      (Mis) leading Britain’s conversation: The cultivation of consent on the Nigel Farage radio phone-in show

      Abstract
      In this article, I adopt the socio-cognitive approach to critical discourse analysis (CDA) to interpret the discourse found on the popular UK radio phone-in programme the Nigel Farage Show. Evidence emerged of positive self-presentation and negative other representation through denials of prejudice, discursive de-racialisation and the use of war metaphors and lexis referencing legality, criminality and the collective.

      However, the control over this forum was its defining feature which appeared to propagate an anti-immigration stance and normalise the aforementioned lexis. This control was evident through the selection and placement of contributors, the influence of cognitively central participants, the foregrounding of Trump’s rhetoric, topic selection, protection offered to in-group members and to picalisation which supported the in-group and served to vilify the views and identity of the out-group. All of which led to the creation of a closed community devoid of alternatives.

      Keywords
      Brexit, control, critical discourse analysis, Nigel Farage, prejudice, social influence, socio-cognitive approach, Trump

      https://journals.sagepub.com/doi/abs/10.1177/1750481319876769

    116. CameronB Brodie says:

      Sensibledave
      So a respect for international law is “psycho babble”? You are a total idiot dave and a cultural bigot. You certainly don’t appear to be a democrat.

    117. Stuart MacKay says:

      jfngw @4:54pm

      In terms of being to effect change you’re completely right. The initial target, I guess, is to wipe out the unionist parties which will send a strong message down south.

      However, in order to wield any real power sooner or later constituency seats will need to be fought over. Not sure going down that path is wise unless reform is simply impossible.

    118. Republicofscotland says:

      We know Johnson thinks that Scots are vermin, so it should come as no surprise that whistleblower tells that the UK government hates Scots.

      https://www.thenational.scot/news/18446494.vote-leave-whistleblower-says-government-hates-scottish/

    119. Dog biscuit says:

      Cherson, Nicola Sturgeon is the unbridgeable gulf between SNP and the Independence movement. Its difficult news to wake up to but she has not been advancing Independence rather she advances an Atlanticist Neocon vision of restricted public association state surveillance of the individual using a glorified flu as sn excuse to blackmail an imprisoned population into accepting dehumanising social distancing the surgical gimp masks and needing permission to live highly regulated lives.I notice City of London is not regulated to the extent that Sturgeon et al intend regulating us.We are sering you Nicola Sturgeon. The restriction measures to be introduced willl make it almost impossible to organise politically because large groups would be breaking the ‘Law’. Theres a bigge bigger picture here.

    120. Dog biscuit says:

      Did I say bigger twice ?Shit

    121. Dog biscuit says:

      By the way folks I fear Tory Government has nasty plans for Scotland.For Independence we’ll need skates on.

    122. CameronB Brodie says:

      Dave is suggesting Scotland getting dragged out of the EU by England, is somehow comparable to his own country-folk outvoting his opinion. That’s probably because dave appear to believe Britain is one nation, and he is ideologically opposed to limited government and equality in law. Dave is an Englishman who is hostile to John Locke and the principles of constitutional democracy. Dave is a Tory.

      THE RULE OF LAW PRINCIPLE: THE EU CONCEPT VS. NATIONAL LEGAL IDENTITY
      https://www.researchgate.net/publication/325285943_THE_RULE_OF_LAW_PRINCIPLE_THE_EU_CONCEPT_VS_NATIONAL_LEGAL_IDENTITY

    123. Sandy says:

      On the thread.

      STOP TRYING TO GET AHEAD OF OURSELVES.
      Let’s get independence first. There are excellent MSPs in the current Scottish party who, no doubt, will drift away to any new party. The enemy is within, the current Unionist tractors, who might want to join, as they see it, the gravy trail. These have to be pinpointed & made sure that they get no opportunity whatsoever to be part of an independent Scotland.
      Let them remain for ever in the dregs of history.

    124. Dog biscuit says:

      So Peter A Bell has no answer to the question of Nicola Sturgeons plans for Independence.Maybe one or more of her other pnline Acolytes can furnish an answer?

    125. Dog biscuit says:

      Time is of the essence.

    126. CameronB Brodie says:

      Sensibledave
      Your outlook is culturally flavoured an incapable of respecting Scotland’s legal identity. You appear to be a classic example of a cultural chauvinist, which is compatible with you being a Tory. Mkay!

      The Legal Doctrines of the Rule of Law and the Legal State (Rechtsstaat)

      The Ill-Fated Union: Constitutional Entrenchment of Rights and the Will Theory from Rousseau to Waldron

      Abstract
      This chapter revisits the key theses of Georg’s Jellinek’s Declaration of the Rights of Man and of Citizens: A Contribution to Modern Constitutional History [1895]. The objective of this chapter is to expose the ‘umbilical cord’ that linked the notion of ‘constitutional’ rights and the will theory, on one side, and the internal incompatibility of notion of ‘inalienable rights’ with the will theory – reflecting an unabated conflict of the doctrines of parliamentary supremacy and constitutional rights, on another side.

      These doctrines are part of both ‘continental’ and ‘common law’ traditions. Our intent is also to reflect on the shared groundwork of the doctrine of sovereignty of Hobbes, Austin (and Dicey), on one side, and Rousseau, on another side. Our more particular thesis is that ‘neo-Benthamite’ positivists, as Waldron, assailing adjudication as being ‘undemocratic’, seem to return to the Rousseauan position, with all its flaws.

      Keywords
      Supra Note Social Contract Judicial Review French Revolution National Sovereignty

      https://link.springer.com/chapter/10.1007/978-3-319-05585-5_8

    127. Breeks says:

      Wullie B says:
      14 May, 2020 at 3:08 pm
      Personally, I would love to see the death of every political party in an iScotland, no more blind loyalty to the candidate, but more of a push on what that candidate stands for under no obligation of the whip…

      Aye, I’ve sometimes thought along similar lines. But sadly, we don’t have an electoral system or media which could cope. I also think you’d get the same tribalism, just it would be festering beneath the surface and hidden from the people.

      The other big change I sometimes think would help is MP’s have actual training so they at least have a core understanding of the job they’re meant to do. There’s no point somebody taking an oath to a Constitution if they haven’t a grasp of what the Constitution is. The risk is you introduce an element of unwelcome conformity, but perhaps Government would be a lot less amateurish.

    128. Sensibledave says:

      CBB

      … sorry, I misunderstood.

      So the BBC’s mistake was to give a “platform” to someone who’s views were supported by the majority of people in the UK?

      In the society that you want CBB, can you tell me who it is that decides what viewpoints that I, as mere pleb’ , am allowed to hear? Is it you? Is it someone you nominate?

      You make me laugh. You are so full of s**t. You are so far up your own a**e. You actually believe that in your version of an open and free democracy you get to decide who can speak and what they say. It is now so typical of the “left” (and woke) that “no platforming” and the “cancel culture” Is, paradoxically and hypocritically, a keystone of their perception of a free society.

    129. CameronB Brodie says:

      Party politics is kind of essential to functioning democracy. We just need to be more vigilant and involved. We also need to escape Brexitania, which is not a social democracy. Things will not end well for Scotland if it allows English Torydum to determine her future.

      Political inclusion is vital to sustainable democracy
      https://www.idea.int/news-media/news/political-inclusion-vital-sustainable-democracy

    130. Robert Louis says:

      Robbo at 305pm,

      I agree. It is a dilemma, and it is one I face. I have gone from cheering on the SNP (as a long term member), even after we lost in 2014, to being really sick of them. They have had golden opportunity after golden opportunity to pursue independence, and at each and every turn have created some kind of new barrier to progress.

      What I mean is, it wasn’t unionists who said that the long accepted argument (even by Tories) that Scotland becomes independent when we elect a majority of pro indy MP’s was no longer valid. No, it was the SNP all by themselves who did that. Nobody, and I really do mean, nobody asked them to do that.

      Then they insisted that only via a referendum could indy be achieved, but then they insisted that could only happen if London agrees (section 30).

      Now we are told by some of their MP’s that just one more election, and as if by magic, Johnson will allow a referendum. It is bunkum of the very highest order.

      So, yes, I agree, it is a dilemma. You could even say ‘it’s a sh*te state of affairs’.

      By her actions, NS has shown no appetite whatsoever to pursue independence. So, it isn’t going to happen. no matter who we vote for.

    131. CameronB Brodie says:

      Yes dave. Farage is an open fascist, It is all our social responsibility to oppose fascism.

    132. Gus Jackson says:

      Has anyone ever won a “war” by going head to head with an enemy 10 times the size?
      If you were 10 times bigger would YOU give in to an enemy who constantly tells you to “fuck off” etc. especially if you controlled just about everything?
      Sturgeon is the one who pushes that Hate Agenda, because she knows it will never win.
      Whether in the Union or in Independence she would probably still be Leader, so why go through all the hassle of negotiation with Westminster where things might not go smoothly?

      I would gladly return to supporting Independence if we started to reach out To WM in a friendly manner and build our Economy without needlessly spending stupid money on stupid projects.
      After 300 years of Union we can’t unpick it in a year or two. A stable, long lasting Independence will take time.
      We already have Devolution, but imo the SNP has wasted the opportunity to build on it, which I’m sure was the original intention. The rising Debt alone speaks for itself.

      The totally incompetent SNP Government and most MSPs are either Sturgeon’s friends, with or without experience, chancers on the make, 5 Jobs and Arms Dealer Blackford,(maybe he could use some of his experience to make money for Scotland rather than himself) or Sexual Deviants.
      With an honest, dedicated Government which has no need for “Spinners”,but is devoted to their post and Scotland. The current ones’ disgrace Scotland they can act as they like,Mackay being the perfect example. They claim to be “Stronger for Scotland”! In what way is slagging off Boris Johnston being Stronger for Scotland. Do they expect him to burst into tears and gift them Independence?

      As someone said in an earlier post, things must change asap or we’ll all be in Sturgeon’s own wee Fiefdom for ever.

      Scotland CAN do better than this current nest of vipers.
      A new, free thinking generation untarnished by the ways of the Past like the ones we have today.
      There’s simply not enough people in Scotland who identify with the immoral
      ways of Sturgeon’s lot.
      They/We are fed up of hearing the same old stale Party with the same old excuses who have become so predictable and rotten.
      Change the approach of the HATERS, or Independence will disappear up THEIR own arseholes.

    133. susan says:

      I think that the first thing any Indy list party should do ( and the future Scottish constitution) is nail down male and female. Boy =juvenile human MALE. Girl= juvenile human FEMALE. Man = adult human MALE. Woman = adult human FEMALE. Based on possession of a functioning sry gene. THAT’S the basis of law.

    134. Dog biscuit says:

      While we are ‘locked down’ we cannot organise marches for Indy because restrictions will be placed on crowd size. This house arrest is purely political. For at least ten years there has been an increasing sence of malaise in Western Societies with increasing signs of political dissatisfaction unrest and demonstrations across much of Europe.The ruling class of all countries who all know each other have the perfect solution to their problems.An imprisoned population waiting for orders from their Governments.Some, many idly while away their time with other presently unachievable politics. We are held hostage by our Government.

    135. Sensibledave says:

      CBB

      … no. The people of the whole of the UK who voted Leave outvoted the rest of the voters of the UK that voted Remain.

      So, as example, as a result of all of the voters in Scotland that voted Leave, rather than Remain, little old me, and the majority of other voters in Oxfordshire, were outvoted.

      Democracy sucks doesn’t it.

    136. Brian Doonthetoon says:

      Hi Sensibledave at 4:57 pm.

      You belched,
      “The notion that the BBC was/is pro Farage is, frankly, laughable.”

      Have you actually paid attention to the BBC’s output over the past few years? The quotes below are from the two links supplied…

      “I must say it’s jolly nice of the BBC to be here today. I’ve been up and down the country attending rallies with thousands of people and the BBC haven’t bothered to turn up once,” smirked nicotine-stained man frog Nigel Farage at the Brexit Party’s press conference on Tuesday.

      Yes, that’s Nigel Farage of the record 32 Question Time appearances moaning that he doesn’t get enough coverage on the BBC. No doubt Buckingham Palace will soon issue a statement condemning the Daily Mail’s news blackout on the royal baby.

      The griping soon paid off as, just a day later, Question Time agreed to make it appearance number 33 once the programme got to Northampton on Thursday.

      An embarrassing climbdown? Hardly, as Farage had barely been off the BBC to begin with.

      https://www.theneweuropean.co.uk/top-stories/nigel-farage-on-question-time-1-6040398
      ———————————————–

      IN a completely unsurprising turn of events, the BBC has come under fire over its lack of impartiality.

      Last night’s episode of Question Time marked Nigel Farage’s 33rd appearance on the show.

      The third-largest Westminster party was of course not represented on the broadcaster’s flagship political show.

      It was instead the usual suspects in a Brexiteer-heavy lineup that featured Work and Pensions Secretary Amber Rudd, Labour MP Jonathan Reynolds, Former Tory MP Anna Soubry, who rebelled to join Change UK this year, businessman and former Labour Leave chairman John Mills and Brexit Party leader Nigel Farage.
      Advertisement

      As you can see above, Scotland was not represented at all on the panel but Farage was, despite the fact his party has no MPs or MEPs.”

      https://www.thenational.scot/news/17631396.bbc-has-explaining-to-do-over-record-farage-question-time-appearance/

    137. CameronB Brodie says:

      This is what dave is trying to suggest is acceptable to foist on Scotland, who support multi-cultural tolerance. Unlike English Torydum.

      Brexit and Trump: On Racism, the Far Right and Violence
      https://blogs.bath.ac.uk/iprblog/2017/04/03/brexit-and-trump-on-racism-the-far-right-and-violence/

    138. Graeme says:

      Dave
      It matters fuck all what the UK voted for in the EU Ref, Scotland clearly voted to remain, and we were told in 2014 the only way to remain in the EU was to stay in the UK, surely even a fuckwit like you can see the problem there

    139. Sensibledave says:

      CBB

      … I’m following you. So you decide who is a fascist and therefore they need to be “cancelled”.

      So, if I say you are a fascist, does that mean you get “cancelled”?

      In that scenario, do you have the right to an appeal?

      You are demonstrating to everyone, that despite your pretence of pseudo intelligence, you are actually as thick as a plank and just another dangerous anti-libertarian.

    140. CameronB Brodie says:

      “… no. The people of the whole of the UK who voted Leave outvoted the rest of the voters of the UK that voted Remain.”

      Dave clearly neither understands or respects constitutional law, and appears to think Brexit compatible with liberal constitutionalism. Dave appears to be a rather thick and chauvinistic Tory.

      The Fundamentals of International Human Rights Treaty Law
      https://brill.com/view/title/17886

    141. Sensibledave says:

      Graeme

      Sorry Graeme, so when the majority of Scots voted to stay UK citizens … your interpretation of that outcome is that Scots should have the right of veto on Uk votes … and it doesn’t matter how I vote, just how Scot’s vote. I don’t think that works for me mate.

    142. CameronB Brodie says:

      Sensibledave
      You just can’t handle the truth dave, and have a closed minded to ethical legal reason. You’re a classic cultural bigot.

      Core International Human Rights Instruments
      https://www.unfpa.org/resources/core-international-human-rights-instruments

    143. Sensibledave says:

      CBB 6.07

      I note that you feel incapable of responding to any of my points and have retreated to posting links!!

      You’ve got nothing sunshine. You are a fraud. A very dangerous anti-libertarian one at that.

    144. Sensibledave says:

      … oh, and you are a bigot!

    145. terence callachan says:

      I think many many people took for granted the SNP standing down
      Or being ousted / replaced by another party
      Once Scotland becomes independent

      I don’t think there are many people I know or have spoken to think SNP would continue to be in power after Scottish independence gained

      Which begs the question once again
      Who exactly are you polling ?
      As i have said before I would love to know who these people are
      When they live
      Where they were born
      What they do for a living

      The results of this poll are weird
      I’m not saying they are fake
      I just do not think they are views representative of the the general population of Scotland

      Come on tell the truth , honestly , anyone on here honestly believe that SNP would have continued in power after Scottish Independence gained ??

    146. CameronB Brodie says:

      Sensibledave
      That’s because you talk shite and I know how to argue effectively. You’re out of your depth arguing against me lad.

      International Law and Human Right
      http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=I5rEY9uwG_k

    147. Liz g says:

      Capella @ 3.53
      I’m glad you feel so positive about the new party Capella…
      They were, and may still be,short on people from your neck of the woods.
      They don’t want this party to be weighted by people from the central belt and were looking for recommendations of people from across Scotland to reach out to.

      I had said I thought you might be interested or know of trustworthy other’s who would be….. but I didn’t know your real name.
      You had backed off from posting here and I wasn’t on Twitter at the time either….even Ronnie didn’t know or couldn’t remember how to get hold of you 🙂 !!!

      Anyhoo…..They might still be looking for support from up your way….I don’t really know how they’re placed.
      But if your interested it might be worth getting in touch with them !
      They’ve been burnt before so might be a bit wary…but let me know if you need someone to say you’re genuine.
      I don’t know Colette Walker personally,but a few of my friends do…..

    148. terence callachan says:

      Sensibledave…….
      Where do you live ?
      Where were you born ?

      An answer to those two questions will give everyone a better idea
      why you think that Scottish people who vote by a big majority to remain in the EU
      62% in favour

      should just accept that as England ( with ten times the population ) ( and ten times the MPs ) as Scotland
      voted to leave the EU
      Scotland should just do so too

      Legally it is correct that it was a U.K. wide brexit vote
      And legally Scotland is being forced to leave the EU

      It is idiotic to accuse Scottish people who are very unhappy about the way england has ignored Scotland throughout brexit of being bigoted

    149. jfngw says:

      @Capella @5:07

      I wasn’t inferring it had anything to do with them being women, that’s neither here or there with this. Politicians like AS thrive on power he would overshadow the leaders, the media would almost certainly congregate around him. You may want a high profile person but maybe not quit so high profile.

      Also CM & SC have fairly strong opinions, it could lead to fiery meetings.

      You may think I’m ruling out everyone but they need to be careful they don’t set up a party then lose control of it.

    150. Sensibledave says:

      Terrance.

      I didn’t, and never have, suggested that the people of Scotland are bigots. Just CBB almost every time he writes.

    151. terence callachan says:

      Sensibledave…..

      CBB said this of you….

      “Dave is suggesting Scotland getting dragged out of the EU by England, is somehow comparable to his own country-folk outvoting his opinion. That’s probably because dave appear to believe Britain is one nation, and he is ideologically opposed to limited government and equality in law. Dave is an Englishman who is hostile to John Locke and the ..”

      He is absolutely correct
      Sensibledave is not so sensible , more idioticdave

    152. CameronB Brodie says:

      terence callachan
      We are all agents of international law, but Brexit denies this and separates Scotland from the rule-of-law. English Torydum killed British constitutionalism. Take it from me, dave is a cultural bigot.

      Thanks dave. 😉

      The International (UN) Human Rights System
      http://guides.ll.georgetown.edu/c.php?g=273364&p=1824722

    153. terence callachan says:

      Sensibledave……

      So…where do you live ?
      Where were you born ?

      You didn’t say

      Don’t you want to answer ?

    154. Graeme says:

      Firstly Dave the majority of Scots didn’t vote to stay in the UK the vote was turned by your countrymen/women

      Secondly I’m not suggesting a Scots veto, go have your Brexit it’s what you voted for, but it’s perfectly reasonable for Scotland to have a second referendum on independence in view of the contradictory votes of 2014 & 2016.

      Don’t you think I’m right Dave or is democracy only for England in this shitshow you call a union ?

    155. Ottomanboi says:

      This is why we simply cannot trust those Anglos:
      https://www.globalresearch.ca/british-unit-planning-reconstruction-venezuela/5712896
      Scotland, adrift with a manifest navigational problem and the prevailing winds unfavourable

    156. Capella says:

      @ Liz g – Hi. I’m still a member of the SNP so don’t think it would be polite to join another party! But I would vote for them. There may come a time when I will resign from the SNP in which case I would join ISP. I do know somebody who is interested. In these lock-down times though it’s difficult to know what people are thinking.

      Once they publish their principles online I could ask people directly.

      I was trying to work out how to DM on twitter. If I find out, I’ll DM you. 🙂

    157. Bill McLean says:

      It’s done – the fifth column have finally managed to persuade that the ONLY vehicle we have to independence is corrupt! Nicola Sturgeon is corrupt! I don’t know about you, who appear to know everything that I know absolutely nothing about, but I want Scotland’s independence too. You who complain about the opinions of others to the extent they pack up and you’d still like to consider yourself as democratic progressives. The only progress made on this blog is to DESTROY Scottish indpendence!

    158. callmedave says:

      Coronavirus:

      Legal bid to remove owners of infection-hit Skye care home

      https://archive.is/vlvVf

    159. Capella says:

      @ jfngw – it depends what their aims are. If independence is their first demand then whoever tends to assist that goal is surely an asset? I imagine they will keep it simple and not lumber themselves with a great list of unachievable goals.

    160. Liz g says:

      Cappella @ 6.50
      Me too Capella…I’m never quite sure if I’m sending something public…one of us will get there 🙂

    161. Bob Mack says:

      @Bill McLean,

      Peter Bell is not slow at fighting his own corner thank you.

      Yet here you are criticising people for having opinions OF THEIR OWN.

      Do as I say etc_____

    162. robert graham says:

      Someone taking the piss with this site, first time I have seen this error
      Unable to establish a database connection ,
      Fkd if I know what that means

    163. jfngw says:

      @Capella @6:56

      I’ll make this the final comment on this to you as I don’t want it to seem I’m just trying to be too negative.

      It’s not the goal, I think they all have the same goal, it is the route that I think may cause some friction. Much as I respect CM he has, in my opinion, quit stringent views a sort of very polite version of Mr Bell (not the same views as Mr Bell obviously). And SC will call a spade a f’ing spade, he doesn’t mess about, I’m not sure humility and SC fit in the same sentence.

      Interested on how many candidates they intend to stand, it’s probably too early, but it is fairly expensive. £10k deposit for 20 candidates (if I read the rules correctly) plus all the expenses of running a campaign. Those that mention UKIP did it, but who funded them to run so many that lost deposits.

    164. robertknight says:

      Bill McLean…

      Ah one two three four…

      “The King is in the altogether, but all together,
      the altogether, he’s altogether as naked as the day that he was born, and it’s altogether too chilly a morn!”

      Sorry Bill. But if you can’t/won’t see the current leadership for what it is, then it’s nobody’s fault but yer own. The Empress isn’t wearing a stitch, but you carry on regardless. In time her actions, or lack of, will speak louder than anyone on this site.

    165. CameronB Brodie says:

      I do realise I give it tight to dave and I’m rather rude. The thing is, dave is determined not to acknowledge Treaty law as the foundation of British democracy. Without a respect for Treaty law, Brexitania is simply an authoritarian state shaped through English cultural narcissism. Literally an English despotism. So is it any wonder I’m not prepared to give him any respect.

      I just wish the Scottish government would apply accepted legal knowledge in the defense of Scotland’s legal identity.

      Human Rights Treaties and Conventions
      https://www2.gov.scot/Topics/Justice/law/human-rights/HumanRightsTreaties

    166. robert graham says:

      Northern Ireland easing restrictions from Monday, Threatened or Bribed ? .

      Wales will be next same method

      That leaves the Jocks , different methods will be used this time, First media blitz , Then Labour, Tory, wee Wullie all acting as one , it will be moan moan gripe all the usual Pish , it will be first item on every news bulletin everyone knows how the script goes it’s so bloody predictable,

      The English have used the same methods for hundreds of years at least they are consistent if not predictable , bast***ds just the same and aren’t bothered if they are rumbled, they don’t give a fk

    167. robbo says:

      No matter there being some differences we all know what some southern MP’s think of Scots

      Least we forget.

      https://twitter.com/80_mcswan/status/1260903497157017600

    168. robbo says:

      May i remind some of why we need some other way to do things regards the list seats.If SNP can’t do it on the list then a decent list party will do.

      This gormless twat on Brewster fest last nite.

      https://twitter.com/Scotpol1314/status/1260950847732813826

    169. James F. McIntosh says:

      I don’t know how many would be with me on this but unless we managed to get a legally binding document from the SNP agreeing to hold a referendum within say 8 to 12 weeks after they win the next election in scotland then I would not be voteing for them.

    170. CameronB Brodie says:

      Scotland certainly deserves better politician than Maurice Golden, who I think makes walnuts appear sensible.

    171. robbo says:

      Now then Jackson Carcrash , explain?

      CEO of HC ONE resigns

      https://twitter.com/crantara/status/1260919800391503872

    172. stonefree says:

      @ lothianlad at 12:17 pm
      Agree
      Watched it happen elsewhere

    173. Athanasius says:

      Beginning to understand the whole Alex Salmond business now, people?

    174. Brian Doonthetoon says:

      Hi Sensibledave.

      I note (as have others) that you did not address the blatant pro-Farage bias displayed by the BBC, as outlined in my comment just before 6pm.

      https://wingsoverscotland.com/our-enemies-among-us/comment-page-1/#comment-2531515

      Cat got your tongue?

    175. Sensibledave says:

      Terrance

      I agree that a majority of Scots didnt vote to leave. Neither did a majority of folk in glorious south Oxfordshire (the result here was similar to the overall Scotland vote).

      But you can’t have it both ways. If you are a citizen of the UK (and I have never had the opportunity to vote on whether I want to be or not) then on UK wide votes we get the outcome of the majority of that constituency. 14m voters in England were outvoted. I was one of them.

      The thing that amazes me about so many comments here (and, somewhat ironically on a thread entitled “The Enemies Among US”) is the notion that somehow England, or Westminster, or the Tories “did it to you”. They didn’t. Scots voted against Indpendence. But rather than accept that, for reasons that I dont understand and can only guess at, you need, you want, to play victim and blame everyone else other than your own unattractivenes to the majority of Scots.

      In previous threads, for what it is worth, I have suggested that the reason that Sturgeon hasn’t pushed for indyref2 is becaue she is canny enough to know it probably cannot be won at this time. Now, with CV 19, Brexit, Oil prices, Currency, Depression, Borrowing, etc, in my humble opinion, she knows Project Fear 2 would make Project Fear 1 look like a Disney Cartoon. Too many events, too much uncertainty, too risky. In my view, the vote would be bigger to Remain.

      Indy supporters desparately need Brexit to be bad. If that happens then maybe (in about 2 years) you might have a chance , but until then probably not. She knows that and, even though she is now getting the s**t kicked out of her by many here, she is trying to look at the bigger picture. If indyref2 was lost now, that probably would be it for 10/15 years.

      Sturgeon is just the latest in line to get a kicking because Scots voted against Indpendence. She joins the queue with the English, Tories in England, southerners in England, Londoners, english living in Scotland, Labour voters in the Red Wall.

      She is different in one respect though. She did actually have a vote on the issue!

    176. bipod says:

      The lockdown is now being lifted all across europe. Restrictions are being eased in Northern Ireland, Norway, France and a host of others are now re opening schools and people are going back to work in Germany. Sweden is now well past its peak with no lockdown and its health service didn’t collapse, proportionally it performed better than Scotland. But here in Scotland we are waiting for nicola sturgeon to judge that we are safe from her mythical “second wave catastrophe” before she will even consider lifting the lockdown. I wouldn’t be surprised if we are the last country in Europe to lift the lockdown.

      Lets hope that Nicola isn’t too busy being applauded by the guardian and piers morgan, and she can take some time out to consider the state of the Scottish economy, which is soon to be the worst hit in Europe.

    177. CameronB Brodie says:

      robbo
      I believe Brexitania has an extradition Treaty with Westminster, though Westminster only acknowledges international law that favours British constitutionalism. So they are unlike to seek extradition, if it came to legal proceeding. According to Westminster, those living in Scotland have no legal right to legal rights (see Brexit). That includes the right to health (see Brexit).

    178. Sensibledave says:

      Brian Doonthetown

      It is not my job to defend Nigel Farage. I have never voted for him. Institutionally the BBC has been anti Brexit from the start, to sugget otherwise is silly. If you look at a programme like QT, since the vote, the panelists were typicall 4 to 1 Remainers. The Audience was similar. The flagship Today programme on Radio 4 were so anti Brexit that even I was embrrassed. Please remeber I didnt vote to Leave.

    179. CameronB Brodie says:

      bipod
      According to the Lancet, Global Health Regulations rule, yah bass.

    180. jfngw says:

      Boris Johnson turns to his Latin roots to describe the situation delivered by the Tories.

      iti sapis spotan ditis ab igone

    181. Kenny says:

      “No matter how valid the ideas that inspire a party, no matter how wise its programme, no matter how strong the initial support from the people, sooner or later there will be an inevitable degeneration of a revolutionary party into a conservative party.”

      Mikhail Gorbachev

    182. Sensibledave says:

      CameronB 7:30 pm

      You wrote “I do realise I give it tight to dave and I’m rather rude.”

      No Cammy … you are pseudo intelligent fraud and a bigot that is incapable of making an argument and relies on links as an appeal to “authority”. In summary, you are a waste of space.

      You wrote “I just wish the Scottish government would apply accepted legal knowledge in the defense of Scotland’s legal identity.”

      … just checking, is that my fault too? You know, the Scottish government that was elected by Scots? You are such a d**K.

    183. Alex Montrose says:

      ask a stupid question,

      vote SNP 1, Green 2, at next years Holyrood election, this will decimate the Unionist list MSPs and give the SNP/Green Government the mandate for an Indie referendum.

      Had the SNP fucked around talking about Independence during the Brexit debacle and now the covid-19 pandemic would have been political suicide, folks will need to see the disaster of Brexit before a referendum is called, oor Nicola has played her cards right, and with the SNP at 50 to 54% in the polls, a lot of folks think the same.

    184. Bill McLean says:

      Bob Mack at 0702 – thanks for your response but if you think you will provoke me into your argybargy fest you can forget it. I’m not sticking up for Peter A Bell – i’m sticking up for the right of anyone to have and express an opinion – maybe you don’t understand that as you seem to have alloted yourself the role of arbiter. If you have provided some proof of what you and others imply maybe i’ll change my opinion – but it will be my opinion
      Robert Knight at 0729 – that may be a very clever paradiddle but you haven’t supplied me with any evidence why I should change my opinion. Which regardless of you or Bob Mack or indeed anyone else I am entitled to and that speaks louder than anyone!. And any fault in this will be mine if my opinion is proven wrong! Have either of you ever changed your mind about anything and if you have why did you change it? You/We are being mugged by other than those you are so against for reasons still unexplained to me!
      What the hell has become of this blog?

    185. @Alex Montrose

      Why do you hate women so much as to promote the wokeist Greens?

    186. John Jones says:

      sensible dave

      why is everyone even replying to this person?
      he’s obviously loving the discord he causes. how do you stop an old diesel engine spewing out noxious fumes? cut off the fuel.
      easy done.

    187. Scotspine says:

      Dave there, equating Oxfordshire to Scotland.

      Dave, you are like every other British Nationalist. Whether a pathetic Dependence supporter from Scotland, or an arrogant colonialist from England.

      Fuck off.

    188. CameronB Brodie says:

      Sensibledave
      That is your opinion dave, which you are entitled to. Of course, as you are unable to substantiate your position through ethical legal reason, your opinion should simply be considered cultural prejudice. By insisting Scotland leave the EU at England’s insistence, you display zero empathy for the political consciousness of the majority of Scots.

      Scotland existed before it joined England in political union, so England has no authority over Scotland, under Treaty law.

      International Covenant on Civil and Political Rights

      Adopted and opened for signature, ratification and accession by General Assembly resolution 2200A (XXI) of 16 December 1966
      entry into force 23 March 1976, in accordance with Article 49

      https://www.ohchr.org/en/professionalinterest/pages/ccpr.aspx

    189. Bob Mack says:

      @Bill McLean,

      Self contradiction isn’t pretty. It seems you are from the same cloth as Peter Bell. Instead of having a pop at people venting their frustration with Nicola and the SNP,perhaps it might be better to try and understand the events or lack thereof leading to that frustration.

      We mostly want Indy tomorrow. Does the SNP show that same desire in your opinion?

    190. A quote in a similar vein from Hugh McDiarmid,

      during The Oxford University Debate 1964 when he was a guest speaker alongside Malcolm X,

      Hugh was discussing the Declaration of Arbroath and paricularly the part,

      “As long as but a hundred of us remain alive, never will we on any conditions be brought under English rule. It is in truth not for glory, nor riches, nor honours, that we are fighting, but for freedom – for that alone, which no honest man gives up but with life itself”

      Hugh pauses after quoting it and then says,

      “My people have done little but betray that oath ever since”

      http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fhAmObHbjuc

    191. Jockanese Wind Talker says:

      O/T:

      While news is dominated by Covid-19, Westminster passes The Agriculture Bill 2019-21.

      https://services.parliament.uk/Bills/2019-21/agriculture/stages.html

      Amendment put down to guarantee no loss of standards or import of US type shite FAILS

      Amendment put down to guarantee Scottish Parliament has control of decisions affecting Scotland’s Agricultural Sector FAILS

      ZERO Tory MPs from Scotland back either amendments.

      ONLY SNP MPs vote in favour of Holyrood having control of decisions affecting Scotland.

      THE AGRICULTURAL POWER GRAB IS NOW LAW despite Deidre Brock and her colleagues tenacity.

      I suspect Elizabeth I will once again fail in her duty as Queen of Scots by giving this Bill Royal Assent.

      If Westminster treat centrally controlled UK Agricultural policy & support in the same way as they have UK NHS PPE distribution Scotland’s Farmers are fucked (and to be honest some, but not all deserve everything coming to them as they were warned)!

      Fishing next…..

    192. CameronB Brodie says:

      Bill McLean
      What has become of the SNP, their attack on biology suggest they hold international law and women in contempt? That might be why they have failed to advance the cause with any noticeable effect. They are destroying the potential for justice in Scotland, and the potential for Scotland to achieve constitutional justice.

      Their legal position strongly suggests a profound ignorance of the law, or a profound hostility to it. Something has to be done to resolve this direr condition, and strengthen the resolve for independence.

    193. Andy Ellis says:

      @ Alex Montrose 8.43pm

      It’s not necessarily a stupid question , it’s just not going to happen. If you think many of those who are disillusioned enough with the SNP are going to vote Green you really haven’t been paying attention There are of course a number of reasons the Scottish Greens have failed to reach escape velocity in all previous Holyrood elections. It has to be doubted that many of the voices being raised against the SNP for its shortcomings are suddenly going to embrace the Scottish Greens platform however.

      If you look at the % and number of votes gained by the Greens, or SSP etc in past elections it’s easy to see the potential for a list only party (unless you’re Peter Bell or James Kelly apparently). It’s simple maths – if enough of the 800,000 who wasted their list votes on the SNP vote for “new” third parties, it will increase the number of pro-indy votes overall and hopefully deprive British nationalists of seats. Of course the SNP might gain an overall majority at the 2021 election: but they might not. A lot can happen in 12 months.

      Like many others I will never give my list vote to parties endorsing TRA extremism, or who I feel are soft pedalling on #indyref2. We may need the SNP as the engine for indy, but they aren’t to be trusted unless and until wiser heads like Joanna Cherry and Alex Salmond can clean them out. I have my doubts that’s achievable given what we’ve seen to date.

    194. twathater says:

      I posted this on Peter Bell’s blog in answer to his objection to a new list party , but unfortunately as Stu’s poll shows would we get enough REAL indy supporters to attend re the real reason for the protest march
      ————————————–
      Again sorry for the length
      —————————————–

      Re FORCING the SNP SG to do SOMETHING , I proposed last year on WOS that instead of AUOB holding marches in support of independence AUOB should have held marches HEADLINED , FORCE NS and the SNP to either call a referendum or take the wm govt to the ICJ , just think of those hundreds of thousands of people marching and objecting , me included to the pedestrianisation route may have illustrated to NS that we are no longer willing to be marched up hills only for US to be shepherded back down again , needless to say that proposal was poo- pood by the many SNP members who were convinced Nicola had a GRAND secret plan , and we ALL know how that turned out

      IMO hundreds of thousands of people MAY , I SAY MAY have had a better impact on decisions rather than a small representation of YES officials , this could /can still be achieved depending on the outcome of Covid , if the AUOB formally announced just now to hold a March in Edinburgh in late August to PROTEST NS’s handling of the independence forward movement and demanded that NS either name a date before May 2021 for a referendum AND IMMEDIATELY ratify Scots sovereignty through the ICJ or STAND DOWN as the leader of independence

    195. David Wardrope says:

      Thing about those SNP supporters who are bent on keeping the party at all costs, it’s that a good few of them will have absolutely have uttered the famous words, “they’d vote for a cardboard box if someone stuck a red rosette on it” in relation to blinkered unthinking Scottish Labour voters. A bit of self awareness wouldn’t go amiss.

      Couple that with them actually thinking the scenario through; voting no to keep the SNP alive will kill the SNP as 2 failed attempts at independence blows open a hole below the waterline that’ll take decades to repair (if it can be fixed at all).

    196. Joe says:

      I said it before – the thing people aren’t considering when it comes to a new indy party is how cooperative the SNP would be. I also, some years back, said the SNP have been hijacked by people who are not nationalists but internationalists and have injected the poison of Post Modern thinking into Scottish independence. Which of course makes it impossible to find common ground – only submission

    197. Joe says:

      This wont be accepted by many because it sounds too insane – what you call the SNP is a vehicle now for an international brand of neo marxist ideology that has had quiet power grabs nearly all over the civilised world. Thats why the same insane shit policies can be seen in many different countries that match the SNP’s. In fact it was so predictable I even told you about the coming trans issues.

    198. CameronB Brodie says:

      Joe
      That sounded impressive but do you even know what postmodernism is?

      Situating the Self: Gender, Community and Postmodernism in Contemporary Ethics
      https://www.wiley.com/en-us/Situating+the+Self%3A+Gender%2C+Community+and+Postmodernism+in+Contemporary+Ethics-p-9780745610597

    199. Jockanese Wind Talker says:

      HOW VERY CONVENIENT…..

      On the day management of the Covid/19 ravaged Private Care Home in Skye (which has only reported an annual profit once in the last 9 years despite paying 10s of Millions £s in bonuses and shareholder dividends) is taken over by SNHS Highland and is subject to legal action.

      We get this which is guaranteed to relegate it (and BBC complicity by failure to report objectively for the last month) and is dog whistle to Unionisms last supporters in Scotland!!

      “ NAT ON – SNP MP Steven Bonnar and neighbour charged over ‘Celtic flag disturbance in street’”

      http://archive.is/eDxyJ

      Divide and Conquer last tool of the BritNats.

      Police Scotland/COPFS timing impeccable?

    200. Alex Montrose says:

      Constituency vote, SNP.
      List vote, Green.

      that will decimate the Unionist Parties and ensure an indie referendum, and lead to independence, all other bollocks can wait.

    201. ScotsRenewables says:

      bipod says:
      14 May, 2020 at 8:22 pm
      The lockdown is now being lifted all across europe.

      bipod, the lockdown is not being lifted in Northern Ireland, try getting your facts right. Even Snarlene thinks Boris is being hasty. Sweden is facing a care home epidemic, in Germany the R (reproductive) rate for the virus has been above one for three days in a row.

      You may disagree with Sturgeon on many things, but her performance generally in this crisis has been head and shoulders above Boris’s and more and more people are seeing that.

      Maybe Sturgeon will get the heave when this is over, maybe a new SNP leader will take the country to independence, but Sturgeon’s careful, measured and humane performance during this crisis will have done a lot to raise the YES vote, specifically because she has refused to play politics with the virus.

      If you can’t see that and you are screaming for early release from lockdown then I find it hard to believe you are really an indy supporter. A couple more weeks of lockdown while England’s infection rate soars again is an easy price to pay.

    202. MrRocknRoll says:

      Is this the fuckin’ Twilight Zone? Outer Limits? Seems to me the sensible thing to do is everybody shut the fuck up for a wee while and calm down. The goal is an independent Scotland. Do we agree on THAT? So, one ‘side’ wants to wait on the SNP gettin’ something done. (I’ve been waiting and marchin’ and convincing and gettin’ more pissed off by every year, month, day, that goes by).
      The other ‘side’ wants to try something by getting list votes. Now I’ll be honest here, I don’t know much (anything) about this list vote strategy, but you know what? Go for it. Do your thing, (both sides). Then we’ll know what happens.
      Fuck all this bitchin’ at each other. Just go ahead and we’ll discover the outcome. We’re never gonna find out if all we’re doing is saying, “Our way is best”, “No it’s not because blah blah blah”.
      Just get on with your fuckin’ ‘day job’ both sides. I’m away to open a bottle of wine. CHEERS 😉

    203. Eilean Sgianach says:

      @Liz G
      I have reached out to Colette Walker a couple of days ago, with the offer of helping out in Skye and Lochalsh, I am a sickened member of the SNP who will get my first vote, but the ISP will get vote number two, as the fledgling party will need all the help it can get when it comes to pounding the streets whch she was agreeable to, I dont know how much longer I can remain in the party I have been a member of for many many years, it just feels like I have to hold my nose at elections now so who knows, a knew home for me possibly

    204. CameronB Brodie says:

      Joe
      Seriously dude, it is clear you don’t understand this stuff, so it doesn’t help your credibility when you try to claim knowledge you clearly lack. 😉

      TOWARD A MODERN/POSTMODERN
      RECONSTRUCTION OF ETHICS

      https://scholarship.law.upenn.edu/cgi/viewcontent.cgi?article=4026&context=penn_law_review

    205. Sarah says:

      @ cherson and others: trying to get independence supporting list seats is NOT against the SNP. I am an SNP member [and am not anti- Nicola] yet I understand that the million list votes for SNP did not help the SNP nor independence.

      A single issue party [not really but primarily] so voters know exactly what their vote is for – like the Brexit Party – could be very successful. The Brexit Party got a huge number of votes when they only had one recognisable face [Farage].

      The Yes movement gets 200,000 people committed to independence on a march – I would suggest that the marchers are getting desperate for progress and would be happy to try to increase numbers of indy supporting MSPs.

      A referendum or a court case are not the usual ways to gain/regain independence. The most usual way is by the vote of a representative body e.g. a parliament or a constitutional convention. So with a good majority of unequivocally pro-independence MSPs a vote in favour should be sufficient.

    206. JG says:

      I don’t get the purpose of the question or the conclusions. I am fully behind independence and wouldn’t care if SNP was around after the event or not. However, without knowing who or what the replacements were, I might also vote don’t know….a bad alternative government may have an agenda to make independence a failure

    207. defo says:

      For those suffering from a cognitive dissonance, the answer you seek is staggeringly simple.
      Ask yourself, in full knowledge of Evan’s & co’s shenanigans being exposed in the action he won, were Eck’s jury wrong?
      If not…

    208. Pete Barton says:

      Thank you Sarah.

      Bullet points.

      Paragraphs (The Rev will love you)

      I agree with you fully.

      If there is a will to increase our democratic representation with a view to the ultimate goal,which is representation according to our wishes then a way will be found to do it.

      This new Yes alliance list vote movement -has to be done properly or not at all.

      We are well advised to be cautious.

      2021 elections are crucially important.

      It takes compromise, but it can be done.

      We have some fine minds behind us!

    209. Alex (not that one) says:

      First time I’ve commented on here. I’ve been reading for a while and find Stuart’s use of language and ability to see what others don’t absolutely great, I’ve become a real devotee of this site. Likewise I really enjoy the standard of comments below.

      A few observations:

      First, it seems to me that Sturgeon is essentially seeking to be the poster child of British liberalism. Talked of gushingly in the trendy bars of Hyndland and Morningside, but also in Shoreditch and Brighton, by affluent middle-class professionals and academics. Fawning Guardian write-ups, etc. Supporting the British war machine because that’s ‘responsible’. You see this in the people who say things like “we need to vote SNP because the world respects ‘Nicola’” as though New York Times puff pieces can make up for the way they use our oil to park their weapons in our waters. (I must say, I have never been much of a fan of La Sturgeon, because of the vacuous egocentricity of the ‘I’m with Nicola’ campaign). It’s all very cosy and middle-class, and to me that’s not really good enough. It essentially concedes that independence is abnormal and that the British state is inherently benevolent. She believes in independence in the way that most Labour politicians believe in a vague idea called socialism.

      Conversely, and related to this survey, it seems to me that too many on this site think we can just have a second referendum and then, happy days, we’ll be independent. I think that’s terribly naive. If everyone thought like us we’d be at 90% in the polls. For instance, I find people on here who say things like “why wasn’t Sturgeon at our AUOB march” a bit disingenuous. Don’t people realise that to your average voter in the suburbs a bunch of young folk and people who work in the arts dressed in outfits with tattoos on their face going on a march is the biggest turn off since an ex girlfriend of mine asked if she could call me ‘master’. A lot of people in Scotland have been brought up to think of themselves as British, to think Britain is a cut above, to respect ‘Queen and country’ and to distrust ‘radical’ social movements. That world is gone, and we can convince them that it’s gone and our future lies in independence, but we won’t do that by pandering to ourselves. There were reports of people in England at the last election saying that “I don’t like Corbyn, but I’ll still vote Labour” and the Lsbour canvassers having a go at them for not supporting “Jeremy”. Let’s not do similar here- although of course it’s the less staunch parts of the movement that have a personality cult! .

    210. robbo says:

      ScotsRenewables says:
      14 May, 2020 at 10:08 pm
      bipod says:
      14 May, 2020 at 8:22 pm
      The lockdown is now being lifted all across europe

      If you can’t see that and you are screaming for early release from lockdown then I find it hard to believe you are really an indy supporter. A couple more weeks of lockdown while England’s infection rate soars again is an easy price to pay.

      —————

      bipod is not an indy supporter, neither is the dug.

    211. Sinky says:

      BBC Newsnight doing a number of Scotland and Convid with the usual lies from Tompkins

    212. Wullie B says:

      Alex Montrose, twice you have mentione Vote SNP/Green for indy maajority, what part of folk not liking the SNPs wokist GRA/Hate bills do you think will vote for a green party that support at the least the GRA bill, the Greens will never get my second vote, as I do not trust the party supporting independence, with the likes of Ross Greer bemoaning the SNP at every point since he got in as an MSP, and that teh Greens would love to stop the A9/A96 dualling, when the north needs massive investment in the roads side of things, not going to happen

    213. Golfnut says:

      @ Scot Finlayson.

      Well all I can say about Hugh Mcdairmids comment is he’s a shit historian. Since the union of 1707 Scotland’s history is littered with insurrection and unrest led mostly by the people. Not the establishment, the people.

    214. Golfnut says:

      Looks like the establishment didn’t like Nicola pushing for a hard line response to the virus, a Coup De tat apparently( or something)

      https://www.facebook.com/389529967775319/posts/3077317378996551/

    215. Brian Doonthetoon says:

      Hi Sensibledave at 8:30 pm.

      You typed,
      “Institutionally the BBC has been anti Brexit from the start, to sugget [sic] otherwise is silly.”

      AS has been typed many times on WOS pages, a journalist hearing two opinions ie, “It’s raining” and “It’s not raining; it’s sunny” has the job of looking out the window to establish the facts, not the easy option of repeating both opinions.

      This is where the BBC merits a “fail”.

      “The last few months have seen a bad-tempered debate kick off between the BBC and many figures who would usually be first up to defend it. Remainer Lord Adonis has been taking potshots at the corporation on a daily basis.

      Former Newsnight host James O’Brien wrote a piece warning it to avoid false balance. Owen Jones took personal aim at the political nature of Andrew Neil. BBC complaints have been flooded by Remainers angry at the BBC’s lack of coverage of anti-Brexit marches while giving Farage’s tiny fish photo-ops much more time. The BBC’s Nick Robinson hit back at critics with a piece warning that their focus would create a British version of Fox News.

      Whether or not there’s an agenda inside the BBC to push for Brexit, something just as pernicious is happening. The corporation has been frozen with fear after countless attacks from the reactionary right and is systematically failing to uphold its responsibilities for public education.

      It has prioritised character-driven political soap-opera over communicating the huge unpublicised evidence base. And the country is poorer for it.”

      https://www.politics.co.uk/comment-analysis/2018/04/17/what-s-actually-going-on-with-the-bbc-and-brexit-bias
      ————————————————————

      “The BBC failed to deliver impartial and balanced journalism while covering the Brexit referendum campaign, according to ITV’s political editor Robert Peston.

      Mr Peston, who spent nine years with the public broadcaster before switching to its commercial rival in 2015, suggested the corporation wrongly gave equal airtime to “loonies”.

      He laughed when asked if the BBC could be blamed for Brexit but said the role of the journalist was to work out which of two contradictory arguments “is likely to be the closer to the truth”.

      “I love the BBC but I did feel that during the Brexit campaign they slightly got confused about what impartial journalism meant,” he told the Cheltenham Literature Festival.

      “The problem with the BBC was during the campaign it put people on with diametrically-opposed views,” he said. “It did not give any help in assessing which one was the loony and which one was the genius.”

      “I do think that they went through a period of just not being confident enough. Impartial journalism is not giving equal airtime to two people, one of whom says ‘the world is flat’ and the other says ‘the earth is round’.

      “That is not balanced, impartial journalism.”

      https://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/bbc-bias-brexit-eu-referendum-reporting-robert-peston-itv-a8571946.html

    216. CameronB Brodie says:

      Brian Doonthetoon
      Nice one. 😉

    217. Papko says:

      Fair play to George Orwell he gave us a few works that are oddly prescient.
      Animal Farm the definitive satire on socialism (or revolutionary change in general)
      And 1984 which after reading it our very own Rev had his epiphany.

    218. defo says:

      Any idea what’s going on with Steven Bonnar being huckled?

    219. Joe says:

      @CameronB Brodie – I do. Its pure poison. Its created to do to society what you do to a conversation. Thats because you act as an avatar of the ideology, repeating the methods mindlessly, letting others (links) do your talking while you do the twisting and evading. I detest your breed. Hypocrites, intellectually stunted and dishonest to the core.

    220. bipod says:

      @ScotsRenewables

      Its not being lifted in NI but it is being eased next week. It was predicted by many in the UK that if sweden did not implement lockdown measures then tens of thousands would die there and their healthcare system would collapse, neither has happened, they are past their peak and the trend has been downwards, something robbo has been seething about for weeks now. There is no correlation between having a lockdown and reduced transmission.

      NS position is not based on the science, it is based on public opinion and a media frenzy. They have extended the lockdown here until the end of May, but if you believe in the second peak scare story what difference will two weeks make? The virus is not going to stop existing in that time. NS is just delaying the ineviatble, in a few weeks time I suspect she will be saying something very similar to what the uk gov have already said. We will need to wait and see if there is another catastrophic peak in england, but if there isn’t its going to make NS look even more silly.

    221. CameronB Brodie says:

      Joe
      You claim knowledge yet provide no justification for your hostility towards post-modernity. That is indicative of prejudice grounded in ignorance.

      Btw, you really need to get over your hostility to education. It is not an endearing characteristic of your personality. Just saying. 😉

      Policing and Society
      An International Journal of Research and Policy
      Volume 17, 2007 – Issue 3

      Policing, Modernity and Postmodernity

      Abstract
      This paper seeks to assess the relationship between contemporary policing and postmodernity, and to argue that police leaders and policy makers should develop a postmodern sensibility in relation to social change and policing.

      Official discourse about police reform and policing developments is overwhelmingly couched in terms of modernization; following Gibbins (1998) it is suggested here that a postmodernization agenda should form part of the discourse surrounding the police service and its “reform”.

      The paper identifies how some police leaders and agencies in the UK have considered the challenges and development of policing in an increasingly fragmented, diverse and eclectic society; whilst such consideration has generally not occurred within a framework of postmodern analysis, it is argued that police leaders, and some initiatives, have paved the way to postmodern policing.

      The extent to which the modernist project still dominates the policing (and wider criminal justice) agenda is also reviewed.

      Keywords:
      Policing, Modernity, Postmodernity, Police reform, Policing the kaleidoscope

      https://www.tandfonline.com/doi/full/10.1080/10439460701497345?src=recsys

    222. CameronB Brodie says:

      bipod
      Do you expect us to take you seriously without evidence?

    223. CameronB Brodie says:

      bipod
      I see myself as being diametrically opposed to your position. This is where I’m coming from. Refute this or kindly stop punting your agenda. Full text.

      Evidence, Ethics, and Values: A Framework for Health Promotion
      https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3036693/

    224. bipod says:

      Do you expect me to take lockdown seriously without any evidence backing it up?

    225. Zen Broon says:

      Hypothetical questions (especially these increasingly bizarre ones) are worthless, aren’t they? Waste of polling money.

    226. bipod says:

      Fir a supporter of Scittish independence you are very keen on shutting down anyone that challenges tory HQ lockdown narrative. I wonder whats going on there.

    227. bipod says:

      “For a supporter of Scottish independence”*

    228. CameronB Brodie says:

      bipod
      It appears you are also in desperate need of an education in science, post-modernism, and the legal nature of democratic citizenship.

      POSTMODERNISM AND THE
      RATIONALIZATION OF LIBERAL LEGAL CULTURE

      http://www.polisproject.org/Discussion%20Papers/D98-9-PoMoLiberalLegalCulture.pdf

    229. cynicalHighlander says:

      @bipod

      If your in a building that is on fire are going to sit there until the evidence says you’re in mortal danger?

    230. bipod says:

      @cynicalHighlander

      I definitely wouldn’t try putting it out with a rocket launcher.

    231. Joe says:

      At 12:44 CameronB Brodie posted an article (full version behind a paywall). Actually read it. Why would there be a post modern approach to policing? Would that be similar to the post modern approach to gender/sex? The post modern approach to education? Cameron, by mindlessly appealing to apparent authority has given you a glimpse of the societal train wreck that this ideology promotes.

    232. cynicalHighlander says:

      @bipod

      Your point being?

    233. Joe says:

      @cynical highlander

      If a group of people who make a career from deception are telling me i need to leave my house because its on fire, when i cant smell smoke, i might do some questioning. Bipod is correct and is arguing against numptys who can breathe underwater better than question official narratives

    234. cynicalHighlander says:

      @Joe

      Can you go and fetch that long stand from the store please.

    235. Joe says:

      @Cynicalhighlander

      I’ll take that as ‘ok Joe. Ive got nothing to say to that’

      Cheers.

    236. cynicalHighlander says:

      @Joe

      Which confirms you are selfish idiot, thanks.good night.

    237. CameronB Brodie says:

      Joe
      This confirms cynicalHighlander’s assessment of you. You’re ignorance and bias appear to be profound in equal measure.

      Can Post Modernism Contribute to
      Saving the World?

      Abstract
      As human beings, our future sustainability could be under threat if we continue to ‘trash the planet’. Sustainable development, suggested as a way of addressing the environmental, economic and social problems ahead, has fundamental implications for the governance of modern society. In a complex system, such as the Earth, linear analysis and rational planning are no longer considered appropriate, and new ways of understanding change are needed.

      Post modernism offers an alternative approach and a different way of perceiving the world and its problems. It is however, criticised as almost useless because its plurality of competing dialogues is said to undermine the basis for meaningful change. Revisionary post modernism may provide a way forward.

      This paper examines a theoretical approach to exploring discourses around sustainable development in non environmental, voluntary organisations using revisionary post modernism, based on a belief that in complex systems small
      changes can bring about major change and that voluntary organisations, working at a local level, can bring about change in their communities.

      It highlights how a post modern approach could contribute to securing a more sustainable future, by helping us understand the importance of local narratives in co-creating the future.

      Keywords:
      sustainable development, revisionary post modernism, complex systems, change, voluntary sector

      http://shura.shu.ac.uk/8543/3/Gilligan_post_modernism_save_the_world.pdf

    238. Al-Stuart says:

      .
      Anent @Ian Brotherhood 4.02pm and Peter Bell. Rarely read his deteriorating, incoherent havering.

      Just took a look at his final encore.

      Am not a fan of gratuitous abuse. It is often a sign of restricted vocabulary and low IQ.

      As a Weegie, I wholeheartedly endorse the sprinkling of colourful language when used imaginatively. To wit, Sir William Connolly of Jobbie Wheacher.


      But the melting mental state and intolerance of Peter Bell who advertises himself on his blog as a “listener and thinker” is a prime example of the graphic at the very top of this thread. The enemy of Scotland are not the English, but eejits such as Bell.

      Bye bye Peter. If Covid19 causes you to run out of toilet paper, you can always use your old archived Internet blog-roll. That is all your words are fit for Mr Andrex.

    239. Breeks says:

      awizgonny says:
      14 May, 2020 at 4:45 pm
      A few years back I put the scenario of the SNP disbanding once Independence was achieved to a fervid Independence supporter, and they rejected it too. But their reasons were very clear, and nothing to do with power for power’s sake: they believed that the immediate removal of the SNP would allow Lab/Con/Libs to roll back Independence if they took power too soon….

      I don’t believe they could roll back Independence, because the 1707 Union would be dead, and could not be resurrected in any lawful way. If there was to be a desire to return to a United Kingdom arrangement, it could only be done via a completely new treaty negotiated from scratch, which both parties were willing to sign up to. Good luck with that.

      I refuse to believe that any version of Scotland, even one with blighted by resurgent Unionism, could be so dim as to negotiate such a dismal predicament for Scotland as the current farce of a Union.

      The Union can die at a stroke if the will was there to do it, but resurrecting the Union after Scotland was Independent would be extraordinarily difficult, complex, and even if a union of sorts could be negotiated, the resulting treaty would barely resemble the 1707 Union at all.

      I keep banging on about a Constitutional route to Independence through the Courts… If such a route did kill off the Union treaty, it would be permanently dead and buried. No amount of Unionist outrage or backlash, rioting in the streets or violent rebellion against Independence would undo what had been done. A Treaty, once dead is dead forever, and can only be replaced by a new treaty.

      I’m not saying it would, and perish the thought, but even if a civil war broke out in Scotland in the shadow of Independence, the old Union could still not be resurrected, but a new Union agreed and signed up to. The chances of that happening are very small.

      Personally, I think it’s worth the risk. I don’t believe Unionism is anywhere near as strong as the enemy media would have us believe. Much of Scotland’s Unionism only exists because it is being shored up by the British Establishment. Unionism has the “Scottish” media in it’s pocket, but ask yourself why it needs it? Unionism is so confident of it’s strength that it shakes like a leaf at the mere prospect of another referendum. Does that seem consistent with core strength? Why would they be so scared of a referendum if they knew they had the strength to win it? They don’t. They know they’d be royally humped in a fair fight.

      Lastly, yes I know there would be a stubborn hardcore Unionist contingent who would like to agitate trouble, but while that might potentially spiral into a wider conflagration, I don’t think it would. A riot or two is one thing, but beyond a few bigots and hotheads, “Unionism” can barely fill a venue or get momentum behind a petition. Better Together had to bus in footsoldiers from the South. Ask yourself why. I know, you could say the same about Ulster once, but Northern Ireland isn’t Scotland.

      Look at Rory the Tory’s little pebble monument in Gretna; hailed as a spontaneous outpouring of love for the Union, but most of Rory’s cairn was delivered by a tipper lorry and built by a contractor. Unionism is an artificially sustained illusion. The only “unknown” is it’s extent and the conviction of it’s supporters. How do you populate a rebellion when you can’t fill venue or even a minibus? Answer? – Manipulate the media and control the narrative. Zoom in close so a dozen protesters looks like hundreds… It’s all a show.

      Unionism is a fiction. It is a house of cards. It is a fallacy sustained by external interests, just like Scotland’s political parties, Scotland’s news media, and Scotland’s industry and commerce. Take away this political interference and indoctrination, and I firmly believe Scotland minus the manipulation will be a barren wilderness for Union sympathisers.

    240. Robert Louis says:

      Breeks at 0351am

      Yet another excellent posting, with which I completely agree. If only our current leadership in Scotland had the desire or drive to pursue independence, but they don’t.

      Independence is there for the taking, but the SNP prefer to line their pockets, playing pretendy politics, whilst dithering about this and that until the end of time itself. No fight, no drive, no leadership.

    241. Rm says:

      All the different groups have to be together to gain separation from the union, when it was formed people never even had a vote, so is it even legal, if every group get together somehow, the union will end that’s for sure, why are the SNP government nae pushing for this.

    242. Latest count of confirmed #COVID19 cases worldwide at 0200 GMT, May 15
      World: 4,440,989
      U.S.: 1,417,350
      Russia: 252,245
      Britain: 234,440
      Spain: 229,540
      Italy: 223,096
      Brazil: 202,918
      France: 178,994
      Germany: 174,478
      Turkey: 144,749
      Iran: 114,533
      China: 84,469

    243. susan says:

      My thoughts entirely @ Wullie B! And again you’re spot on @ Breeks.

    244. George Orwell/Eric Blair prepared a list of writers and other persons he considered to be unsuitable for the anti-communist counter-propaganda activities of the Information Research Department,

      the IRD was a propaganda organisation of the British state under the Foreign Office.

      Hugh McDermaid was on the list.

      https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Orwell%27s_list

    245. Bill McLean says:

      Bob Mack at 0927 and Cameron BB at 0938 last night – excuse me for not replying sooner. If there is “self contradictio” in my post asking that all conributors may express their point of view then I suggest you read your own posts again before you have a “pop” at me!
      I don’t remember the Rev, or anyone else, appointing you arbiter! Explain to me the “events that led to that frustration”! Then tell me which political party has ever existed that pleased all their supporters on all it’s issues. I don’t like GRA either. I’m frustrated by the approach to independence – there are circumstances at play! I want independence for Scotland as much as anyone else but see that this blog is being destroyed by those who would deny others their say, and those whose sole reason for posting here is to destroy the blog. Who gave you the right to decide which “cloth” i’m cut from?

    246. robbo says:

      bipod says:
      15 May, 2020 at 12:37 am
      @ScotsRenewables

      Its not being lifted in NI but it is being eased next week. It was predicted by many in the UK that if sweden did not implement lockdown measures then tens of thousands would die there and their healthcare system would collapse, neither has happened, they are past their peak and the trend has been downwards, something robbo has been seething about for weeks now. There is no correlation between having a lockdown and reduced transmission.

      ———————–

      More dribble. Sweden’s trend is not downward.Sweden are taking an almighty gamble.Time will tell if it was worth it.They do have lockdown measures in place, so more dribble.

      WTF ?

      NS position is not based on the science, it is based on public opinion and a media frenzy. They have extended the lockdown here until the end of May, but if you believe in the second peak scare story what difference will two weeks make? The virus is not going to stop existing in that time. NS is just delaying the ineviatble, in a few weeks time I suspect she will be saying something very similar to what the uk gov have already said. We will need to wait and see if there is another catastrophic peak in england, but if there isn’t its going to make NS look even more silly.

      —————–
      Jesus,

      More poppy cock.Every decision she’s made is based on science.She’s never said anything about not lifting the lockdown. Just that she needs to see continued downward infection rates and deaths. around 70-80% of of country agrees,so that means even some yoons agree with her.!

      As Theresa May would have said- “Now is not the time!”

      Suck it up. If you don’t like it,you know what to do!

    247. Bob Mack says:

      @Bill McLean,

      Saw your post on the next thread telling me you had replied.

      Honestly ,you should have saved the wear on your fingerprints.

    248. CameronB Brodie says:

      Bill McLean
      It is not simply a case of the proposed GRA reforms not suiting my political taste, they are anti-scientific and anti-democratic. These reforms will turn Scots law into a tool of arbitrary power. We will be powerless to determine Scotland’s future if that transpires.

      We are already adrift of international law, thanks to authoritarian English nationalism. Turning Scots law into a vehicle for authoritarian totalitarianism, won’t help Scots gain more control over our own affairs.

      Is There Such a Thing as a Human Right to Science in International Law?
      https://esil-sedi.eu/post_name-132/

    249. CameronB Brodie says:

      The proposed GRA reform insists humanity is not part of nature. The law must remain rational if it is to serve justice.

      A BIOLOGICAL UNDERSTANDING OF HUMAN NATURE
      https://www.edge.org/conversation/steven_pinker-a-biological-understanding-of-human-nature

    250. Tinto Chiel says:

      @Scott Finlayson 8.22: thanks for that link to Orwell’s list, fascinating stuff.

      Every day’s a school day here.

    251. Bill McLean says:

      Bob Mack – how very condescending of you – maybe, with a wee bit of self examination you will see how those sorts of attitudes are ruining this blog! Your faux politeness won’t wash but maybe you could explain civilly why your friends have just changed from No to Yes? Cameron – you have provided the solution yourelf we must get rid of “authoritarian English nationalism” – isn’t that what most of us who contribute to this blog want?

    252. CameronB Brodie says:

      The Scottish civil service had to be instructed to stop following a gender-critical approach to the law, in order for the proposed GRA reforms to advance as far as they have. Scotland’s capacity to govern herself is being sabotaged from within

      THE RIGHT TO FREELY HAVE SEX?
      BEYOND BIOLOGY: REPRODUCTIVE RIGHTS
      AND SEXUAL SELF-DETERMINATION

      How does the law deal with sex? How is sex part of the human rights body? What rights related to sex exist and, more specifically, what is the position of women in all of this?4

      At the International Conference on Population and Development held in Cairo in 1994, the following definition of reproductive health was endorsed by 165 nations:

      Reproductive health is a state of complete physical, mental and social well-being and not merely the absence of disease or infirmity, in all matters relating to the reproductive system and to its functions and processes. Reproductive health therefore implies that people are able
      to have a satisfying and safe sex life and that they have the capability to reproduce and the freedom to decide if, when and how often to do so
      .

      Implicit in this last condition is the right of men and women to be informed and to have access to safe, effective, affordable and acceptable methods of family planning of their choice, as well as other methods of their choice for regulation of fertility which are not against the law, and the right of access to appropriate health-care services that will enable women to go safely through pregnancy and childbirth and provide couples with the best chance of having a healthy infant. [emphasis added]5

      https://www.uakron.edu/dotAsset/728002.pdf

    253. CameronB Brodie says:

      Bill McLea
      “we must get rid of “authoritarian English nationalism””

      Glad you agree. 🙂

    254. CameronB Brodie says:

      Sorry, Bill McLean.

    255. Bob Mack says:

      @Bill McLean,

      Bill, you claim to be frustrated at lack of movement towards Indy and the GRA, yet ask me to explain why others are frustrated. You already know why. Add to the mix the shambles of following an English Brexit, lack of legal challenge over Section 30, the Alex Salmond affair,trying to deselect one of their own top MPs (Joanna Cherry). I could go on and on.

      I stop no_one from contributing on this site. I have no power to stop you writing anything you wish whenever you wish.

      You can read of skip by, whichever you choose. I control no aspect of that.

      My friends, to finish ,are pillers of Unionism, through Organisations and indeed Honours. They are the epitome of what you would imagine a Unionst family to be. It is a major shock to me, and that is no joke.We actually had to agree to omit politics from our conversations in the run up to Indy1.

      They have decided Scotland can manage its own affairs.

    256. Bill McLean says:

      Bob Mack – why have they decided “Scotland can manage its own affairs”? When I have time I read every post on this blog and often don’t understand too much of Cameron’s posts but if you don’t answer my question I will skip every post you write! Whether you care or not is a matter of supreme indifference.

    257. CameronB Brodie says:

      UKOKplc, was a unitary state governed through common law grounded in Treaty law. Brexitania is an authoritarian state founded on constitutional majoritarianism. Destroying the potential for justice in Scotland can not be considered helpful to Scotland’s predicament.

      Anti-foundational legal practice destroys democracy.

      Constitutional Justice: A Liberal Theory of the Rule of Law
      https://www.oxfordscholarship.com/view/10.1093/acprof:oso/9780199267880.001.0001/acprof-9780199267880

    258. Bob Mack says:

      @Bill McLean,

      I told everybody Bill that they only informed me last night. I have had no time to cross examine the minutiae of that decision. When I find out I will let you know.

      Now, we can go on chipping away at each other or agree that we value our own opinions as much as anybody else’s. Whether you read my posts of not is your choice. I’m unfazed either way

    259. Bill McLean says:

      Don’t bother letting me know Bob – I think I can guess! I am pleased however that you can acknowledge that all opinions are to be valued!

    260. Bob Mack says:

      @Bill McLean,

      No Bill. I said we can value our OWN opinion as much as anyone else’s. However, not all opinions can be valued unquestioningly. We differ there.

    261. CameronB Brodie says:

      Whoever has been giving the Scottish government legal advice re. sex and gender, has been ripping the total piss. Have the Scottish government been taking their lead from HMG civil service? That’s a tad naive, if so.

      Biological Positivist Theories
      https://us.sagepub.com/sites/default/files/upm-assets/66045_book_item_66045.pdf

    262. Bill McLean says:

      I sense retrenchment and diversion here. Who said anything about “unquestioningly”?.

    263. CameronB Brodie says:

      Can I ask a member of the SNP to please get this one in front of the Justice Minster? TA.

      The Use of Evolution Theory in Law
      https://www.repository.law.indiana.edu/cgi/viewcontent.cgi?article=3272&context=facpub

    264. Bob Mack says:

      @Bill McLean,

      Your doing a fine job of painting yourself into a corner Bill.

    265. Bill McLean says:

      Patronising and condescending again. You have clearly dug yourself a trench to hide in!

    266. Bob Mack says:

      @Bill McLean,

      Clearly I’m having an intellectual battle with an opponent who is unarmed. Goodbye Bill.

    267. Targaid says:

      It seems to me that much of those results can be explained by many voters being happy with the SNP as a government. I know some no voters who vote SNP because they think the party are good at governance. The polls showing trust levels in them as compared to Westminster and Spaffstain and co. would certainly seem to support that.
      Assuming that respondents in a poll are answering the questions the way that you think they are and why you think they are us one of the reasons that poll results are often so wildly inaccurate.

    268. Alan Johnston says:

      Doing the email thing.

    269. Went to the local sho today and, whilst waiting for rolls on crispy bacon, I bought The National, which I never, ever do because it’s an SNP propaganda rag, and basically a joke, put out by the owners of The Herald. Bought it to hear what the (gulp!) Social Justice Commission that Nicola Sturgeon has put together (the phrase ‘social justice’ instantly makes me want to stab somebody in the eye with a screwdriver) is aboot, for an independent Scotland, as if she believes in such a thing, and wants to upset her Westminster gravy train. So let’s just rifle through The Beano:

      The Social Justice Commission (STAB! “OWWW! WHAT DID YOU DO THAT FOR??!”) is going to revolutionise Scotland as much as Labour did after WWII with The Beveridge Report. We shall see. Sounds ambitious. Too ambitious for the Machiavellian cabal running Scotland right now, but the clue’s in the ‘social justice’ tag: they want to remake Scotland in their own image. Pity help us.

      SNP CND think getting rid of Trident is a good plank for future independence campaigning (whatever that is). Good thought. Only Tories and lunatics like Trident. Oh, and arms manufacturers, and the American chimp government. Sorry, forgot.

      Angus Robertson is getting his knickers in a twist, as usual, aboot shite like a tweet(!) the Anti-Scottish Office liked from a random person on Twitter denigrating Scotland. The SNP saying ANYTHING AT ALL aboot Westminster whilst we’re not independent is basically a joke. Nothing will ever change until we are, and their constant whining aboot bullying is unbecoming, embarrassing, and laughable. THEY’RE TROLLING YOU, YOU MORONS! THEY ENJOY IT! We KNOW the Tories hate us, for pity’s sake! STOP WHINING! The idea of a random tweet drawing a response from a government minister is pretty much psychotic, but that’s the modus operandi of this tabloid-cum-comic: they often make ‘news’ out of random tweets from fools. Genuinely utterly incredible. Still, fills space, I suppose, and you have to space the ads out somehow.

      Page nine has a slightly-under-half-page Scottish government advert aboot staying home during the lockdown. Page eleven has a full-page advert by the UK government in Scotland advising the same. The SNP are being outgunned in the propaganda stakes in their own comic by the Tories! Would laugh, but, well, you know.

      Some auld granny just had her 107th birthday. Good on her.

      Endless he-said-she-said articles aboot virus advice, and how great Holyrood is compared to Westminster. Obviously.

      Some random pish aboot a female Russian assassin.

      Obama supports the cunt Biden, apparently.

      An article by Patrick Harvie waffling the usual intolerable self-righteous utter pish.

      Some whining aboot Westminster rejecting a motion written in ‘rebel tongue’ Scots. See above on this whining.

      The letters page I did find genuinely fascinating, though. Loads of fearmongering missives on new pro-indy parties, and the SNP are clearly feeling rattled. As well they should, because their fucking monopoly on Scottish politics, and their hardcore supporters calling anybody criticising their sub-American intersectionalist pish unionists and ("Tractor" - Ed)s, NEEDS smashing.

      Telly drivel, giant crossword drivel, sports drivel.

      So to recap: according to this propagandist pamphlet, Nicola Sturgeon and her social justice chimps are going to revolutionise Scotland, Westminster don’t care aboot Scotland, and any other pro-indy party coming into existence is a BAD BAD BAD idea. I am chuckling here. First issue of this worthless Pravda comic I have bought in a year or two. Certainly won’t be buying one again anytime soon.

    270. Forgot to add: sure remaking Scotland for a bright, shining indy future as much as was done to this island after WWII would take a VERY long time, what with respondents being asked to put their tuppence worth in in the subject on a government website, then the responses being tabulated, tried, tested, thought upon, hmmmmed over and frowned at, scatted back-and-forth, examined from every possible and impossible angle, thought over some more, some gender balanced panels put into operation to dot every i and cross every t…we can see where this is going, can’t we? Kicking the independence ball into the VERY long (wrong) grass indeed. “How can the naysayers argue against a fairer future Scotland? It’ll take a long time to think about! Now bring me my ladle! My portion from the gravy train is overdue!”

    271. CameronB Brodie says:

      Some essential reading for the Social Justice Commission. Full text.

      Teaching Cell and Molecular Biology for Gender Equity
      https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC1618690/

    272. My graduate dissertation follows me 40 yrs later
      “The electoral success of the SNP has, in a bizarre paradox, become the biggest obstacle to the party achieving the one thing it was created for.”

      Careerists in 1980 CND (popular at the time) worried me and the issue became my graduate dissertation

    273. Camz says:

      To suggest that a random poll of ‘ordinary people’ is showing up the SNP folk as people who might be more power-mad within the party is ludicrous.

      I’d be more inclined to believe that the SNP shifting from Yes to No in the event of SNP disbanding is simply fear of handing Scotland to the parties that remain, and a fear of the unknown quantity of what will fill the SNP void.

      I’m sure if you asked the question of pro-deterrent folk that if you could guarantee 100% a nuke-free world, would they vote to get rid on nukes, they would still say no. The unknowns get people choosing the devil they know.

    274. Robert Louis says:

      I just wanted to add regarding the post by Breeks at 0351am, above. The fundamental point in all of this, is that by asserting Scotland’s consitutional rights to formalise ending of the odious undemocratic and unwanted union treaty with England, it effectively blocks it being re-instated – as some folk seem to fear.

      You see, of course once independent, England might want to have agreements regarding mundane matters, to follow on, but the opportunity to steal Scotland’s wealth will never exist again. Even, IF the Tories came to power in an indy Scotland (unlikely I know)and tried to form a union again, they would not be able to pursue the kinds of abuses perpetrated by England that have been allowed since 1707.

      And really, the way to ensure it cannot happen in any way, is to formalise a new Scottish consitution for the sovereign parliament of Scotland.

      Meanwhile, in other matter The National newspaper today, yet again holds the lying, propagandist, anti-Scotland BBC to account.

      https://www.thenational.scot/news/18453919.revealed-scots-frozen-bbcs-coronavirus-news/

    275. KraftyKris says:

      Some of them might be people that feel the SNP are the most competent party in Scotland and have been swayed by how they govern. I wouldn’t be overjoyed at the prospect of the other current Scottish parties running an independent Scotland but that is a concerning response, fear seems to trump hope.

      Great question to ask!

    276. The real Stuart Campbell says:

      I have been saying this on social media since the Autumn, it contributed to my twitter expulsion. Every time I posted about this I got abuse from SNP voters straight away, no debate, I literally just had to report someone on fb this morning for it. It is the mindset that conspired to frame Alex Salmond for rape, its the mindset that is trumping a contempt of court charge on Ian Murray. They dont want Indy bc Indy brings their demise.



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