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Wings Over Scotland

The object of power

Posted on May 11, 2020 by

We were a bit startled to be leaked this early draft from the 2021 SNP manifesto:

We’re sure it’ll be softened up a bit in the editing process.

We jest, of course. The passage above is from “1984”, but we were put alarmingly in mind of it as we watched the weekend’s reaction to the announcement that a new pro-indy list party, the Independence for Scotland Party, has just been registered with the Electoral Commission.

To be honest, readers, we’d always assumed that a large part of the mind-boggling hostility towards the idea of a Wings party from certain sections of the Yes movement was largely founded in personal animosity. (One website has now published, we think, over 30 articles packed with increasing amounts of raging personal abuse about it, although none of them have ever attempted to address the arguments in Gavin Barrie’s calm, professional analysis from last September.)

And that would be fair enough, because Wings can be pretty abrasive on occasion and we do rub people up the wrong way, sometimes on purpose. We’re not for everyone, only fans of facts and reason.

But as it turns out, these people pounce like pissed-off piranha on anyone who dares to try to increase the amount of pro-indy seats in Parliament, even those who’ve never told a living soul to f-off in their lives.

We’ve already highlighted the extraordinary case of the SNP pressure group convener who openly said he’d rather lose the pro-indy majority than have a huge one that relied on another party.

Now, we’d never really expected any different from the party’s Twitler Youth faction of rapey-looking woman-haters and brainless handmaidens mostly centred on the “Out For Indy” and “Young Scots for Independence” groups.

(World’s skeeviest boy-band ever, right? And those are just the ones brave enough to actually put their faces on their profiles. THEY chose those malevolent glares.)

Their members and supporters immediately started spewing abuse at the young women leading the new party (all of whom are using their own names), trying to “doxx” their personal lives, questioning their funding (of which there’s none yet as far as we know) and, most delightfully of all, challenging their ethnic purity like a bunch of racist BNP meatheads demanding a brown person tell them what country they’re “really” from, because one of them had the temerity to be born outside Scotland and come and make her life there.

We could have posted literally hundreds of these. Most impressive of all, though, was perhaps the enthusiasm of Stirling YSI activist Cameron Archibald, formerly known as “MammothWhale”, to join in with the witch-hunt.

It’s only a few days since Archibald was forced to grovellingly apologise to another young woman for abusing her publicly and vitriolically on a completely false premise, since which time he’s wiped his Twitter history – including, of course, the short-lived apologies – to cover up his history of abuse, and changed the account name to “The Stirling Wolf”.

(Young Cameron doesn’t want any ugly closet-skeletons getting in the way of his future SNP career. He can rest assured that we have a selection stored in the archive. After all, that’s how the party likes to go about things.)

But the pile-on was joined by a sneering gang of ostensibly pro-indy sites, including one which had loudly advocated voting for RISE in 2015 but is now apparently SNP hyper-loyalist, all proclaiming that the new party could “undermine” a pro-indy majority.

Bizarrely, all did so by citing recent opinion polls which suggest that the SNP will secure a majority in 2021 on constituency seats alone, which would mean that ABSOLUTELY NOTHING any other party could do would “undermine” that majority.

Those same polls also suggest that the SNP would be very lucky to get more than ONE seat on the list even from over a million votes, and a better definition of “wasted” votes than that we struggle to imagine. A new list party getting even a tenth as many would almost certainly pick up seven or eight seats rather than just one.

But the SNP react with such indignance and outrage to the thought of anyone but them representing independence in Parliament that they sent out their official attack dog (and would-be House Of Commons Speaker) Pete Wishart to pour more opprobrium on the new-born party, in a blog post that’s also been published by The National today.

(Wishart was last seen, incidentally, celebrating the removal of the world’s most read pro-indy website from Twitter.)

The new party has of course been accused of being a “sock puppet” for Wings or part of a “Wings cabal”, with all sorts of dark mutterings about the fact that we’ve conversed with its founders on Twitter.

But the truth is we don’t actually think it’s a particularly great idea, for all the reasons we’ve detailed at length when talking about the potential Wings party and why we’re thinking about it when we said voting for RISE et al wouldn’t work in 2015. Our view is that the only chance a new list party has of succeeding is if it has a well-known brand or profile or leadership figures – RISE didn’t and nor does the IfSP. And the more list parties there are the harder it is for any of them to succeed.

However, we haven’t reacted by screaming hysterical abuse at them or claiming that they “stole” our idea or that they’re foul traitors to independence or that it would be in some way “undemocratic” for them to stand for election in a democracy.

(One of the oddest things about the whole affair is how many self-identified supporters of independence are now professing their grave concern that the Tories might end up slightly under-represented in Holyrood.)

We admire the fact that they’ve actually gone ahead and done something that we haven’t done yet. And we heartily support all of the policy positions they’ve announced so far: independence, women’s rights and disabled rights, which are all evidence of “bigotry” according to the Twitler Youth. If the election came round with IfSP as the only new option for Yes voters, Wings would endorse them without hesitation.

The idea of a new indy list party has revealed a truly grotesque aspect of the SNP’s character – a control freakery that borders on fascistic. New parties which share the SNP’s supposed primary aim aren’t welcomed into the Scottish political sphere as colleagues and allies or even as legitimate opponents, but attacked and demonised and derided and accused of being saboteurs in the service of Unionism.

Nobody should expect the SNP to tell voters to vote for another party, of course. But their active paranoid obsession with collecting completely worthless list votes and letting dozens of extra Unionist MSPs into the Parliament is a pretty strange way to behave for people who ostensibly value securing independence above all else.

It’s almost certainly one of the main reasons we get a steady stream of emails like this one from earlier today, and why they never release membership figures any more:

And the reason given in that one brings us right back to where we came in.

We fervently wish that the current SNP didn’t make us feel quite so much like Winston Smith. But more and more, their means actually appear to be their end. In Scotland as in Oceania, the object of power appears to be power.

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361 to “The object of power”

  1. Republicofscotland says:

    This might be more appropriate on this thread.

    Pete Wishart in the National newspaper today, urging folk not to vote for any other indy party next year except the SNP.

    Wishart claims the other indy parties including one that the Rev might form are full with flawed characters that will do nothing but bicker among themselves, and damage the indy cause.

    Wishart should look closer to home at the SNP, which is full of flawed woke characters who promised we’d remain the EU and promised us independence over the last four years but delivered neither.

    They are good at fitting up old leaders though. Meanwhile the (ISP) the Independence for Scotland Party, which I will give my list to, has already been slandered by the woke community calling it a TERF party, a derogatory term for women, the party was founded by women.

    I urge everyone to give their list vote next year to the Independence for Scotland Party, unless of course the Rev’s party (If he forms one that is) is approved by the Electoral Commission in time.

  2. Dan Watt says:

    What’s this about blasphemy laws in your example email Stu?

  3. Scott says:

    My slight concern now is that it would be counterproductive if there are several new parties all with the same idea.

    I still hope and would vote for a Wings Party but this Independence for Scotland Party and any others that emerge may take votes away that Wings would otherwise have gotten.

  4. Milo says:

    Coronavirus is going to take them down. The sooner you realise it, the better. It’s nuclear.

  5. Rev. Stuart Campbell says:

    “What’s this about blasphemy laws in your example email Stu?”

    The dreadful new “hate crime” bill.

  6. Joe says:


    Its not counterproductive. All the supposed indy parties need to agree on is independence. That’s it

    Any who pretend its anything else will paint themselves for what they are – hacks using indy votes.

    That’s the SNP.

  7. Garrion says:

    If Mike Small is agin it, I would be prepared to die on that hill.

  8. Sarah says:

    Rev: I had hoped that you were part of the group forming this party. If they invite you, please consider joining them as your abilities will be invaluable.

  9. Dan Watt says:

    Rev. Stuart Campbell says:
    11 May, 2020 at 1:41 pm
    “What’s this about blasphemy laws in your example email Stu?”

    The dreadful new “hate crime” bill.

    Jesus fucking christ.

  10. Capella says:

    I’d vote for them. I would also hope that others will join it and stand, others like Stu Campbell, Alex Salmond and Craig Murray.
    Horses for courses 🙂

    It certainly can open up the debate, for example Marco Biago just suggested that the D’Hondt system should be replaced by… something else that didn’t have list MSPs. Coincidence?

  11. Merkin Scot says:

    Originally, years ago, I had some difficulty in really understanding the D’Hondt system well enough to realise that a list party would actually help the cause of independence.
    I won’t be a party member but would vote for them on a case basis.
    Anyway, times have certainly changed. I now think it is imperative that the woke harem surrounding the dear leader are challenged. Sooner or later they have to go.
    Otherwise we will not be looking at a free Scotland for a long time.

  12. Sunandheir says:

    wise words stu, the independence movement seems to be festering in their bunkers scratching at their sores waiting to go over the top just now. I have read all your stuff and like your abrasive style. You haven’t let me down so far and this is a complicated argument that may take history to decide who was right. On analysis of the voting system alone though I will give the new party a shot, but please for gods sake only make it one list party, we don’t want that life of Brian joke coming alive.

  13. Papko says:

    I think I was the only commentator on here back in 2014 and post the referendum who said it was not good enough just to see a surge in membership and it was not business as usual. What was needed was a full and comprehensive post-mortem.
    A total overhaul of the party and its policies with a view to finding out exactly why we lost.
    Save the cursory “it was the Vow that won it” or “media lies”.
    There was no analysis of specifically why policies appealed to someone living in and estate in Dundee, and were implacably opposed by someone living in the Shetlands.

    If you ask me the SNP high command know why this is, but they just want to keep on motoring and leave the engine overhaul for another owner.

  14. schrodingers cat says:

    the only chance a new list party has of succeeding is if it has a well-known brand or profile or leadership figures

    spot on, i made the mistake in 2016 of confusing the electoral arithmetic with popularity

    the electoral arithmetic was and still is sound, but regardless, the people didnt trust the greens (even less so now) and wouldnt/didnt vote for them in sufficient numbers.

    trust is everything here

  15. defo says:

    My eternal inner cynic suggested to me that the new party is an attempt to pre-empt the WoS/Salmond list party.

    I have no idea who they are, so I’m fine with them if you are Stu.

  16. Somerled says:

    Pete Wishart & co are basing their 2021 predictions on recent polls, however it might all be different next year. The SNP needs a clear out, beginning with Nicola, Peter & all the Woke disciples. I know Alex Salmond said he will wait until Coronavirus crisis has passed but how long is that going to take? Will Nicola keep extending lockdown to save her own skin? I understand Alex is writing a book but should he not begin legal action now, as it will take months at least, to get to court? Can Alex not provide an excerpt from his book or reveal more details of what it includes? Perhaps he can write a guest blog on Wings?

    PS. Hope you are well Stu, I miss your twitter posts.

  17. Suz says:

    I agree sadly, in that I don’t think this new party will gain much traction, although I applaud them for having the gumption and the bravery to actually do something and wish them every success. However the reaction from certain quarters that the creation of this new party has provoked is wonderful to behold. The masks have well and truly slipped, the curtain has been pulled back, ripped off the hooks and burned. “Let all the poisons that lurk in the mud hatch out”.

    For that service alone the new party should be applauded.

  18. Pauline Boyd says:

    Victoria has half the movement on block. Loves a good old targeted pile on. And blocked me and my mum due to having poison dripped in her ears about us. There’s been more of a hoo ha over this than when I was being doxxed threatened and having Tena lady sent to my house. Julie got death threats last year and so has Cameron Archibald. I actually left the snp over all of this but will I consider voting for a party that has anything to do with Victoria? No I won’t. She’s had plenty to say about me behind my back (as have half the movement). I hope they disappear up their very self important backsides. Sooner rather than later. Both votes snp.

  19. Capella says:

    I voted for Collette Walker as Equalities Officer or Women’s Officer (I forget which, probably both) at the last SNP Conference. We had a long list of people and were asked to rate them 1,2,3,4 etc. I put Collette first as I knew she was supportive of women’s rights and not in the woke faction. But she was less well known than other candidates such as Fiona Robertson and Rhiannon Spear, both of whom are woke incumbents.

    Collette came out as favourite in the first round. IIRC she remained favourite until the final round, of about 6, when Fiona Robertson and Rhiannon Spear won. This is the STV system in operation.

    I would appreciate another Gavin Barrie article on voting systems and how they can be gamed. If Marco Biagi thinks the D’Hondt system should go then we need to know what the implications are.

    BTW Marco Biagi is a former SNP MSP. But fixing the voting system to prevent an independence majority would obviously be the goal of the Westminster government.

  20. Morag says:

    I don’t think they’re trying to queer the Wings pitch, although that could be the result. They’re women who are particularly concerned about the gender activist takeover in the SNP.

    It’s relatively early days but I hope we can end up with a single credible list party to take this on. I don’t see this effort as being credible with the wider electorate unfortunately. However well intentioned, and I believe it is, at best it will be another RISE and make no difference to anything. At worst it could take badly needed votes away from a more credible list part.

  21. shug says:

    it is difficulty to distinguish between the loony unionists and && brigade in operation and genuine citizens

    The answer it ignore them and concentrate and move forward
    one vote for SNP and on the list Wings

    Is there is a case for the new party to only stand in the List areas where labour, conservative and Libs get their leaders??

  22. Del G says:

    The most important thing to know about Collette Walker is she is not Rhiannon Speirs.

  23. Paul says:

    Wings has lost the plot! You are doing a fine job for the Yoons.

  24. MikeW says:

    What we need is someway to explain this to the public, as i doubt there will be much about this in the “main” media.

  25. ScotsRenewables says:

    Is Collette Walker the ideal person to lead this party?

    No big names have flocked in support.

    I am somewhat underwhelmed.

    If we are to prevent the development of a dozen versions of Rise-lite then we need this to shape up very quickly or vanish.

    Stu, surely you either get recruited pronto or start the WINGS party ASAP.

  26. Joemcg says:

    The only person on earth who could galvanise and head a politically dangerous list party is Mr Salmond. The SNP would shit a brick.

  27. Capella says:

    The IfSP will have a website up soon spelling out their aims. One of them could be better representation for women at Holyrood. It is currently very poor, way behind our Scandinavian neighbours:

    …the results of the 2016 elections are disappointing. Only 45 women MSPs (34.9 per cent) have been elected to the fifth Scottish Parliament, the exact same proportion as in 2011. Thus, despite optimistic predictions, the 2003 Scottish Parliament elections remain the high point of women’s representation in Scotland at all political levels (at 39.5 per cent).

    That doesn’t mean all the candidates should be women. But half of them could be.,analysis-the-representation-of-women-in-the-scottish-parliament_6981.htm

  28. Peter A Bell says:

    The following formed part of a comment on my blog earlier today. My emphasis.

    “Clearly the list parties are a gamble but given nothing has happened in the past five years then blowing an election term or two to experiment with list parties might just be worth it.

    This follows a couple of days of comments on Twitter which, while less explicit, helped reinforce the impression that the idea of handing the government of Scotland to the British Tories has already been normalised to an extent which is of very great concern to those of us who care about Scotland at least as much as we care about some narrow political agenda.

    This casual, flippant acceptance of allowing the Scottish Parliament to fall back into the hands of those who would see it crippled or destroyed derives principally, if not entirely, from the promotion of so-called ‘list parties’. It is an essential part of the message being peddled by or on behalf of these parties that ‘it’s OK not to vote SNP’. This is supported by a generalised and escalating denigration of the SNP which, however justified it may be in certain specific regards, tends to obscure the fact that the single most important objective of the independence movement in relation to the next Holyrood election is ensuring the biggest win possible for the SNP.

    To put an SNP administration in jeopardy on the vanishingly remote chance of getting a seat or two for some list party or parties is just plain madness. To gamble our Parliament on a bit of dubious electoral jiggery-pokery is sheer insanity. To fatally undermine the SNP at this time REGARDLESS OF ANY FAULTS OR FAILURES is tantamount to a betrayal of Scotland of the same order as that which was perpetrated in 1707.

    The inanity spouted by Alyn Smith and others about ‘never closer to independence’ makes a vague kind of sense in one regard only. We have an opportunity such as has not arisen previously and such as must not be squandered as so many opportunities have over the past five years. The chance is there to use the SNP as the lever to prise Scotland out of the accursed Union. Many factors have conspired to create unprecedentedly propitious conditions. But it only works if we use the SNP.

    I find it remarkable – were I given to conspiracy theories I might say suspicious – that it is precisely at this moment of unique and almost certainly never to be repeated opportunity that we are being actively encouraged to withdraw support from the SNP and turn to some cobbled-together ‘alternative’. When within the Yes movement we have people opining that a decade or more of ‘Scottish’ Tory rule “might just be worth it” something is seriously amiss.

  29. Helen Yates says:

    To be perfectly honest I agree any new party has to have a well known and respected person who also has a powerfulness about them at the helm, and also good strong candidates however seeing as I’m so sick to death with the SNP as it stands today I will give this party my second vote, if they are the only real alternative at the time of the election, I only hope I have somewhere to use my first vote because as long as the administration is the same as today I’d rather not vote at all on the first vote.

  30. Grouse Beater says:

    I’m blocked by Wishart, an SNP politician elected to represent the people of Scotland, but blocks those who ask too many questions, hence he has made sure I can’t read his arguments that aim to prove the SNP are God’s gift to reason, all other indy support groups, marches, social sights and ESPECIALLY cybernats, are the devil incarnate.

  31. Bob Mack says:

    Well, it appears we are doomed to be running a race around a mobeus. Never ending. I see nothing wrong with giving the SNP a shot across the bows. given that they put independence on the back burner at every conceivable opportunity and promote unpopular legislation the public doesn’t want.

    Peter Bel! exemplifies the position. We vote SNP for independence,but they don’t seem to know how to achieve it. We can’t vote anything else in case we destroy the Indy majority. Talk about a captive audience!!

    Round and round we go then chasing the impossible ending.

    Something has to give .

  32. liz says:

    The attack on these young women is appalling.
    I haven’t seen Nicola, let’s make Scotland a welcoming country, pull up any of the arseholes.

    I would imagine the new party might withdraw if this continues.

    These people are evil wankers

  33. robbo says:

    Peter A Bell

    Last scotgov election got 4 list seats .That system allowed the unionists to get 46 more seats than SNP.
    How the hell can you explain this and say that SNP on list is the way to go?

  34. Grouse Beater says:

    Posted on Grouse Beater together with a challenge to the SNP to denounce to censorship of Wings Over Scotland’s twitter sites.

    “We’ve reached a serious stage of indoctrination when we feel compelled to prefix praise of Wings Over Scotland with, “I am not a fan of Stu Campbell its editor, but …”

  35. Peter A Bell says:


    Now that you’ve got that crap off your chest, try reading what I actually said.

  36. Peter A Bell says:

    Grouse Beater

    Who is compelling you? How? That’s as pathetic a bit of victim-posturing as ever I’ve seen.

  37. Effijy says:

    Colette Walker was an SNP activist.
    She would have had to resign if she set up
    A new party but did she approach SNP to discuss
    Her concerns about why she wants to leave and give
    Them competition?

    To my mind SNP have set this whole thing up to hinder
    The formation. Of a Wings Party.

    You don’t resign from a party without setting out your reasons
    And you don’t set up a new party without saying why you are different.

    A real Scotland First Party will need to be formed before the next election .

    For Peter Wishart, could a new party draw in the wrong type of characters
    Well they could find themselves like SNP where officials have stolen money,
    Committed adultery, form dangerous relationships with young boys, desire
    Positions within the English Establishment that we want to leave and possibly
    Make a co-ordinated false witness statement against an innocent man.

    Yes Peter a new party could have the same profile as the SNP Characters above
    But very unlikely they find as many as the SNP has.

  38. John Lowe says:

    I will continue to give my 1st vote to the SNP. However as I have always done my 2nd vote will go to the Greens no SSP candidate in my area. Reason we need Diverse views in Holyrood not Clones of the SNP. If we get Clones Holyrood ends up like WM. REV STU PLEASE KEEP UP THE GOOD WORK

  39. Scozzie says:

    Like I said in a previous thread. 50:50 in the independence polls suits the SNP just fine as well as 54% on the HR election polls – no need to rock the boat too much. Just enough seats on the constituency vote to win a narrow majority or run as a minority government.

    But hell no – the SNP don’t want a potential, as yet, unidentified number of pro-indy non-SNP list seats holding their feet to the fire.

    They’re fine with the Greens as they’re soft on indy as well so they’re useful chumps only when needed.

    But a real pro-indy list party gunning for independence action in Holyrood – now that’s a headache the SNP really don’t need.

    Now if they really wanted indy you’d think they’d want to have all those useless unionist list MSPs replaced with pro-indy MSPs – hmmmm can’t think why they’re not supportive!!!!!

  40. Dog biscuit says:

    Recognized it straight away from 1984

  41. Donda says:

    I know very senior people in SNP have floated idea of an independence list party. Best ignore Pere Wishart.

  42. R Macpherson says:

    Concerned with the accusation Pete Wishart was celebrating the demise of Wings related accounts twitter. I recall that was a twitter response to Stu blocking him before he was removed from twitter as per previous article / post.

  43. Andy Ellis says:

    I see Mr Bell has written his piece again. Another know-nothing who doesn’t understand (and indeed doesn’t want to understand) the clear opportunities of cannibalising the wasted SNP list vote. If you can bring yourself to wade through his constipated prose, it appears that his pitch is actually that the Yes movement will somehow magically be able to use the SNP as its creature to deliver independence in spite of itself.

    This is a delusion on the scale of those right wing nationalists in Weimar Germany who were absolutely confident they could use the NSDAP then discard them at their leisure.

    I actually have my doubts the SNP will gain an absolute majority in Holyrood in 2021: a lot can happen over the next 12 months. Even if they do however, what’d the downside of denying yoon parties list seats at Holyrood? Why the hard of thinking like Mr Bell and those who share his delusion like “Pop Goes My Credibility” Kelly refuse to accept the simple arithmetic so clearly outlined by Gavin Barrie remains one of the mysteries of the age, on par with wondering how Bella Caledonia is still a thing, or why Pete Wishart’s friends haven’t staged an intervention yet.

    I’d certainly sooner see a half dozen or so MSP’s from a Wings Party, or one led by Alex Salmond or IfSP or any combination thereof than tolerate more britnat sentient spam cluttering up Holyrood. Bloviating no-marks like Bell, Kelly and Small (as well as the SNP leadership and their woke Sturm Abteilung) would of course sooner see a minority SNP administration post 2021 than admit they are wrong.

  44. Bob Mack says:

    @Peter Bell,

    Your position is therefore to keep voting SNP regardless of how many BLATANT opportunities they pass up to maximise the vote for independence, and indeed display a lack of appetite in all their quotes from their MPs ( Miss Cherry excluded).

    If the SNP are not actively chasing independence what difference does that make to individuals who vote for them solely for that outcome? That includes myself.

    That’s like walking across a surface strewn with rocks wearing shoes two sizes too small, then coming across a new pair the which are the right size, but refusing to wear them in case they hurt your feet!!

  45. callmedave says:

    Some folk saying.

    “No bad thing if the Unionists get a shot for a couple of Scottish parliament sessions… because” FGS!

    That’ll work out well then. 🙁

    SNP first vote:

    List party will get my 2nd vote if it is basically a one issue Independence party and endorsed by a few folk that are trusty names.

    Without Holyrood secured at home the engine for Independence is
    gone and for a long long time.
    All those (‘perks’) in Scotland that we and other things in the pipe line gone.

    Already in the last week we have seen and heard a brand new song on BBC reporting and also by a PM who has miss-stepped.
    Scotland , Wales and Ireland do actually exist!

    Boris blatantly going out on his own last Tuesday promising shiny new changes and ignoring the other three countries, cancelling the 4-nations meeting only to be brought to heel when they demanded a meeting which took place and suddenly his big deal announcement became a damp squib overnight!

    Even that has been a PR disaster with nobody able to explain what is going on. A vague message with no answers.

    The best part being that the PM had, on air, to admit that he was speaking for England only. Imagine that…image that have you heard that before?

    There has been a change and some folk are now realising it.

    Now we hear in England

    1. face coverings to be worn in shops and public transport.
    (FM said that 2-weeks ago)

    2. travel anywhere but not across another country’s border
    (Wales and Scotland acknowledged)

    3. Quarantine (not watertight but another admission)
    Scotland was correct

    Oh!…. I hear the buffoon starting his to do list in Parliament I better listen in might hear more England only stuff 🙁

  46. robbo says:

    Peter A Bell says:
    11 May, 2020 at 3:28 pm

    Now that you’ve got that crap off your chest, try reading what I actually said.


    I’m not quite sure what i said was crap?

    Are the figures wrong? Did this not happen?

  47. Dog biscuit says:

    OK. I’m voting for the Adult Human Female if they put up candidate.

  48. Effijy says:

    I see Bojoland and Russia have an almost identical number
    Of Covid 19 Cases, 220,000.

    Russia has suffered 2,000 deaths while our Boris has dispatched
    Over 32,000.

    What a guy, what a leader, what the F***?

  49. mark whittet says:

    The following statement was submitted by Scotland’s Independence Referendum Party (SIRP) – http://www.SIRP.Scot – to Pete Wishart’s one-sided, non-fact-based website article;


    So much negativity.
    Instead of saying ‘ it’ll never work’, try to MAKE IT WORK.
    And read the full party constitution, aims and objectives (here) – http://www.SIRP.Scot – before coming to prematurely negative assumptions.
    As Nelson Mandela famously said: “Everything is impossible. Until it becomes possible’.

    How to maximise the Scots Indy vote + join
    Scotland’s Independence Referendum Party (read ‘n learn)

    SNP voters can vote first choice for SNP and then vote ‘second’ choice for Scotland’s Independence Referendum Party.

    Result = no ‘wasted’ second-votes

    Latest polling of 54% Constituency votes to SNP equates to 67 MSPs a majority in its own right the 45% support for SNP on Regional list equates to JUST 1 seat.

    Even if 33% of those Regional lists going to a new Indy party if supporters gave them the nod would equate to 29 pro indy MSPs.

    This is far better than just one 1 additional seat to SNP when a second-list vote for SIRP (in a progressive alliance with the SNP) would elect almost 100 pro-Indy MSPs to Holyrood.

    Mark R Whittet (LLB, BA)
    Scotland’s Independence Referendum Party


  50. ahundredthidiot says:

    Defo @ 2:10

    Ditto on the first part

    Ditto on the second part (for now)

  51. jfngw says:

    I see many in the SNP support have moved on from Braveheart to Highlander.

  52. Josef Ó Luain says:

    The idea of a List party is brilliant thus potentially unstoppable.This at a time when the highly critical Right-On minority and their gullible pals, to my mind, give every impression that they’re happy with the busted status quo.

  53. Bob Mack says:


    There can only be one.(party).

    They don’t seem able however to read peoples thoughts!

  54. I do not make comments on other Pro-Indy blogs.I do however feel very strongly about this particular issue. I should declare an interest.I know Colette, we were both in same SNP Constituency Party. Over the past year or so I have had many discussions with both her and Victoria about their plans.I suggested to them that they should reach out and come to an accommodation with other like-minded individuals and groupings with similar aims.The Alliance for Yes Group of Pat Lee and Jim Manclark for example.Those guys have already announced a desire to work the List and remove Unionists.They too have met with hostility. I appreciate the girls have had some dialogue with others including Stu who has in the past expressed the possibility of creating his own List Party. I agree with others on here this List idea is the best and only way to remove the Unionist seat warmers from Holyrood. I too agree it will have the best impact if it is a single Party.I also realise that any Party needs to be fronted by a well respected and trusted individual.I certainly know of one high profile and popular indy supporting person that I think could be interested if the circumstances were correct. It would also help if the Pro-Indy Media also supported this concept. I know one or two that are openly hostile to any challenge to the SNP hegemony, there are others like myself that embrace this concept wholeheartedly. I personally think a List Party is a great idea,this present Party though I think should be viewed as a work in progress.These are two lovely decent, honest women I think they deserve any help others in the YES Movement can provide. You Stu are a vital part of any success or failure going forward.Without at a minimum, your support,this enterprise will struggle to get off the ground. We need a few high profile people to endorse,lead,represent or be on any governing body.We all know there is more to winning elections than just sticking some names on the ballot paper. We need to get organising and campaigning pretty soon the election is possibly only 12 months away.For the avoidance of any doubt I have no skin in the game, no desire to be an MSP or office bearer. I do however offer my fullhearted support to the venture going forward in any way that is seen as helpful.

  55. CameronB Brodie says:

    Trans-activism is incompatible with a legal respect for the human genome and global health law. The SNP don’t simply tolerate trans-activism, they actively endorse it. If you support gender-ideology in law, you are not a democrat. Ask the United Nations or the World Health Organisation.

    The SNP is creating a legal environment that is hostile towards the principles of “universality” and “equality in law”. Possible because they have run out of ideas and lack legal insight and imagination?

    Access to justice, the common law and human rights

    In the second of her series of articles, Angela Patrick looks at how the common law protects the fundamental right of access to justice.–the-common-law-and-human-rights

  56. Sharny Dubs says:

    Surely an independent Scotland with multiple parties where everyone gets their voice heard is where we want to be heading? Not a totalitarian (one party holds all the power (SNP sic) Orwellian utopia set up)

    As for the dreaded “hate policy” thingy now that is straight out of a thought police nightmare, imagine making Misogyny a crime but not Misandery (spelling?) shows exactly where that is heading.

  57. Dog biscuit says:

    So Peter A Bell ,whats the First Ministers plan for Independence?

  58. Dog biscuit says:

    Blasphemy laws?What ,are we now living in the Middle Ages?

  59. callmedave says:

    Jings! 🙂

    PMQs….an MP says

    “There is only a three Nation approach, Scotland, Wales and N. Ireland”. Then asks Boris.

    “Is the PM acting only as the PM of England” 🙂

    Boris says “No”…. err….Yes… err…No

  60. Pete says:

    Effigy 3.46
    All very well slagging off Sturgeon and BOJO but are you not suspicious about the Russian figures?
    Every day they declare high numbers of cases but minuscule numbers of deaths.
    No fan of Sturgeon but I think you should be questioning the Russian figures

  61. Bob Mack says:

    Russia like Turkey has a majority population under 50 years of age.Covid appears less severe in outcome in that demographic.

  62. Capella says:

    @ Roddy MacLeod – thx Roddy that’s helpful. Of course we would want to hear from some high profile people with an interest in independence to see whether they are prepared to back this party.

    @ Peter Bell – I don’t understand your antipathy to a list party. It won’t compete with the SNP in the constituency seats. The Unionists have three list parties and get most of their seats that way. Do you dispute the arithmetic? Please explain.

    The SNP are high in the polls atm but we can’t rely on that being the case a year from now. The media have yet to use their high explosive ammunition, the woke agenda. Once that is broadcast throughout the press in a campaign the SNP vote will drop. They show absolutely no sign of dealing with the threat. On the contrary, they double down with the Hate Crime Bill.

    A week is a long time in politics. A year is an eternity. If we are going to do something about the D’Hondt system and it’s effect on the seat tally in Holyrood, we have to start now.

  63. jfngw says:

    One thing that should be clear is that if we ever have another referendum and win, the next day, just as EVEL was announced, we immediately have Scottish Parties for Scottish Laws and all parties not entirely based in Scotland are removed and elections held to replace these MSP’s. The same people can stand but they need to be with Scottish based parties and the oath also immediately changed to the people of Scotland.

  64. callmedave says:

    Hmm! Boris not at his best today, flagging almost.

    Maybe needing his howling hordes on the back benches to boost his meanderings a bit. Bojo’s mojo’s lost in the new digital PMQs?

    BBC figures today + SUN online.

    N. Ireland………..03……..Total…..438…BBC
    England…………no data…..Total…no data

  65. robert graham says:

    Listening to Bawjaws making as much sense as he did last night , with the usual Tory arse wipes behind him and video link congratulating him and his government for their speedy clear decisive actions during this crisis ,what f/in planet are this lot on ,it must take a certain type of Psychopathic nut job to assume they are right and everyone else is stark raving bloody looney , and to take it off with such confidence ,
    If there’s a God please take these Tory half-wits back and mark them as faulty merchandise , a mistake in production , not fit for purpose .

  66. Neil Mackenzie says:

    I found a postcard image of a Rebel Alliance X-Wing pilot giving the Thumbs-Up with “Let’s Go” and “Wings for Victory” slogans. I’m dying to use it.

  67. jfngw says:

    The likelihood of handing Holyrood to the British Tories is so remote that I would like to see how the maths of this works out, it would require a total collapse of the SNP constituency vote. If that is the case then the regional vote would almost have certainly collapsed as well and the game would be up anyway.

    In my opinion the Tory vote has max’d out having attracted all the Britnats that they can, there is no more of the deranged types for them to attract. Also their current leader in Scotland is a complete arse, in fact the result of ‘operation arse’ I would say.

  68. Breeks says:

    This is too depressing for words. And no, I don’t mean the new ISP party.

    All the chuntering here on Wings month after month, everybody accusing everybody else of being a troll or a SNPbadmouth, and all the time, the SNP was quietly deconstructing itself from within, and handing over it’s soul to these malicious woke narcissists, who manifestly don’t give two fks about Scottish Independence.

    And this don’t forget, is BEFORE the seismic bowel movements which Alex Salmond’s book is promising to deliver, at least for a select few who shall remain nameless.

    What’s depressing?

    Because a List Party is aiming so low. It’s aiming merely to have influence, just influence, in a lowly devolved legislature which has already pledged its fealty and subservience to Westminster, as it’s recognised sovereign overlord.

    Holyrood doesn’t respect Scotland’s constitution or democracy, because on the day the Brexit referendum results were declared, Holyrood stuck it’s snout in the air, and walked right past a constitutionally sovereign mandate from the people of Scotland, that could have, and should have, stopped Scotland’s Brexit in it’s tracks, and even better, it would have left the Union of the United Kingdom wholly and completely untenable way back in 2016.

    If Scotland as a nation is so mind numbingly stupid that people cannot understand what having a robust and sovereign Constitution actually means, then we should not be asking these people to make political decisions any more than we should be handing a sharp pair of scissors to a deranged lunatic and asking him what he plans to do with them.

    Scotland needed a modern day champion, a leader, like William Wallace or Robert the Bruce, or even better, a modern and farsighted Constitutionalist like the Abbot of Arbroath, but instead what have we got? Pete Wishart, and a discordant chorus of angry mixed up weirdos who can’t seem to tell the difference between a man and a woman, or judge what is or isn’t acceptable to subject impressionable children to.

    Scotland the Brave? You’re having a laugh. This nation is fkg lunatic asylum.

    You know the irony of all this wokist horseshite? Most of us grew up in the era of David Bowie, a spectacularly creative phenomenon who was weird, deviant and unsettling, pushing boundaries you didn’t even know were there to be pushed, indulging sexual ambivalence and attempting to make transgenderism seductive. You want to promote Transgender issues, but do it constructively and successfully? Away you go, strap yourself in, and study the life and career of David Bowie.

    All this machismo and hatred towards women? Man alive, I have no idea where on Earth this rage comes from, nor what it is trying to achieve. It’s a screw loose obsession that cannot be symptomatic of a healthy mind. It tries to be something spiritual and ethereal, but really, it’s just a rather contrived rendition of a very “ordinary” prejudice against women, which is simply the same misogyny and threat of violence which has plagued women since basically,..forever.

    I’m in full on Joseph Heller Catch-22 meltdown these days. People think we need a referendum to fix our broken and dysfunctional democracy, but if the democracy is broken and dysfunctional, then what good can come from a referendum?

    We need a Constitutional reset. Nothing less will be sufficient to stop the merry-go-round. We need to reboot the primary operating system… the Sovereign Constitution of the Scottish Nation.

    Do not be sidetracked or waylaid by the Scotland Act / Sewell Convention which forms the constitution of the devolved assembly at the foot of the Royal Mile. “That” constitution comes with a small ‘c’ and didn’t even exist before 1998!!! It is NOT the Constitution of the Nation!!! We must be careful to choose the correct constitution to inform your actions; the 1320 Declaration of Arbroath, it’s accordant recognition from the Pope in 1328, and International recognition from England via the 1328 Treaty of Northampton/Edinburgh. “That” is the Constitution of Scotland which enshrines popular sovereignty upon the Scottish people. THERE IS NO OTHER. Dispense with this Constitution at your peril, and the grievous peril of the Nation of Scotland, and this distinction is I promise you, a much more important issue than any referendum or election.

  69. callmedave says:


    That’s a good point. I don’t know the protocols involved.

    But 5 will get you 10 that many in the other parties will just turn their jaickets inside out and hint at always having a love of the grand old country…. really we did….really honest. 🙂

  70. Effijy says:

    Pete, I haven’t slagged off our First Minister but I have torn apart the
    Pathological Liar Boris.

    You are suspicious of Russia.
    I’m certain Russia hasn’t lied to me half as much as the Tory Party and Boris.

    Let’s see, Tory claim we don’t know what was in the Cygnus Report but we can’t see it for proof.
    The UK government is better prepared for Civid than anyone?
    There are plentiful supplies of PPE Stockpiled?
    They say PPE is being delivered in required numbers to whoever needs it?
    Covid has been downgraded so it doesn’t need as much PPE?
    English Death figures Hospital only? The other deaths count and matter.
    Masks for the public have no effect Lady week, this week wear a mask.
    Testing will be ramped up to 10,000 by this date. No it wasn’t .
    Testing will be at 100,000 by this date, well if posting them out and not processing counts.

    Now to the best of my knowledge the Russians haven’t killed any UK citizens in the last 100 years
    But Boris has killed over 30,000 in the last few weeks.

    In summary Private Pete, I’d trust a Russian well before Boris and the Tories!

  71. jfngw says:

    What it has exposed is many of these so called SNP liberals are at heart no more than the racist misogynist bigots you found in the BNP. Just imagine if an elected MP was partner to one of these bigots, surely the party would shun this.

  72. Grouse Beater says:

    “Who is compelling you? How? That’s as pathetic a bit of victim-posturing as ever I’ve seen.” Peter Bell

    By god, you’re in a cantankerous, no prisoners mood today.

    Taking your advice and handing it back: “Read what I wrote”.

  73. Ian Brotherhood says:

    @Breeks —

    Hear hear, as aye.

    The Catch-22 reference also applies to any discussion of this fucking ‘bug’.

    Breastplate and Joe and a few others continue to try and offer some sense on the subject and are instantly howled down. There appears to be no ‘middle-ground’ possible on this subject, it’s either the worst thing since the Black Death or you give yourself a lemsip, a kick up the arse and get over it.

    We’re played for fools on this and a plethora of other life-changing subjects because, by and large, we *are* fools – lazy, biddable, ingenuous self-centred eejits, and who cares if we’re brainwashed? So long as the fitba’s on and we’ve enough for a few pints, who gives a fuck?!

    The football isn’t on any more

    You can’t go to the pub.

    ‘Ach well, so long as there’s something oan The Netflix and we’ve enough for a carry-out, who gives a fuck? Wha’s like us an aw that!’

    Aye, who’s like us right enough…


  74. Skip_NC says:

    I’ve said it before and I will keep saying it until I am blue in the face. Scotland does not need a pro-independence list-only party. What it needs is a party prepared to campaign in the constituencies as well. It needs a party that has two aims:

    Firstly, the restoration of Scottish national sovereignty, limited only by agreements with other countries, freely entered into.

    Secondly, the furtherance of all Scottish interests.

    Why do we need that? Quite simply, because no party in Scotland fits that bill. One might argue that this would put the cause of independence back by years. I argue that it would not – indeed, it could not. Why so? Because the Scottish National Party is no more a pro-independence party than the others in the Scottish Parliament.

  75. Rev. Stuart Campbell says:

    “I’ve said it before and I will keep saying it until I am blue in the face. Scotland does not need a pro-independence list-only party. What it needs is a party prepared to campaign in the constituencies as well.”

    If you’ve got a spare couple of million quid to fund such a thing I’m sure we’d all love to hear about it. A list party is a financially viable option.

  76. robertknight says:

    Peter A Bell @ 3:02

    For God’s sake man, open your eyes!!!

    If you bother to look, you’ll see the great big shiny 5 litre, 800bhp, supercharged roadster called the SNP, which was supposed to drive us all to an Indy Scotland, has had its engine dismantled by a bunch of biology denying wokist zealots, hell-bent on creating a Trans-utopia where a failure to conform to any and every pro-Trans policy/law will land you behind bars.

    Yet you and the likes of Pete Wishy-Washout keep trotting out the same b-s that we’re risking Indy by not blindly surrendering our votes to the almighty SNP. We’re risking the very fabric of devolution in Scotland by not giving unquestioning support to the SNP and its 5th Column of Trans activists.

    I’ve been pro-Indy all my adult life; a member, activist, candidate (twice) and all-round cheerleader for the SNP.

    Peter, let me assure you, having read this article and seen the screen shots, if I wasn’t already done with the SNP on the basis of the empty rhetoric of the paper tigers at Westminster, with their “We will not allow…” bluffoonery, or Sturgeon’s Brexit-day “be patient”, or put another way ‘now is not the time’, appeasement of Boris, or the GRA madness – I am now!

  77. jfngw says:

    What a nonsense that idea of dirty water gives you cholera, I’m drinking the shitty water because it’s my right to do so, anyone that disagrees with me is just shouting me down.

    No it’s not the Black Death because there was effectively no science or infection control methods in that period.

    If you agree with the same people I do then you have a balanced opinion, if not you are a lazy brainwashed idiot, it’s a compelling argument I must admit.

  78. Beaker says:

    Let me get this straight….

    The Judean People’s Front


    The People’s Front of Judea?

    I’ll get me coat…..long day at the (remote) office

  79. Terry says:

    Totally agree. Someone with guts, brains and political nous needs to lead on this? I can’t see anybody but Alex or maybe Joanna that fits the bill

    100% correct on David Bowie by the way. We are active in groups even with Covid on women’s rights/GRA etc. Awareness is growing. Women are getting angry.

  80. bittie45 says:

    More parties could split the vote. On the other hand there is more diversity. Surely its up to voters to use the heid.

  81. ahundredthidiot says:

    I muted the TV this morning as I watched Piers (AKA Lord Haw Haw) and NS debate.

    you should try it, she is just cockahoop with herself, cant stop smiling (people dying), but centre stage, no less, how fulfilling for her.

    Narcissist of the highest order.

    The SNP are fucked from within – to think I have voted for no other Party my whole life and it has come to this.

    What hope….

  82. Col.Blimp IV says:

    From The article

    “Our view is that the only chance a new list party has of succeeding is if it has a well-known brand or profile or leadership figures”

    I would concur with that, there is a world of difference to being well known within the bubble in which political activists dwell, than in the real world that the electorate inhabit.

    I assume the high-profile “Leadeship Figures” that Rev Stu or for that matter most of the rest of us have in mind are the same people.

    I for one would be suspicious of the motivation of our would-be leaders if they felt their entrenchment in a “MY BALL” Party was a prerequisite – Before throwing their weight behind the push for independence.

    The three S’s Salmond, Sillars and Sheridan all have previous on that score – Would it be to much to hope that they might have learned from their mistakes?

  83. jfngw says:

    If only a long rant could deliver independence we would be free by tomorrow.

  84. Ian Brotherhood says:

    @jfngw (5.46) –

    I don’t appreciate third-rate sarcasm from someone who doesn’t even use their own name in this place.

    FWIW, I include myself in the description of us as daft, brainwashed eejits. There’s not a single one of us has perfect knowledge and awareness of everything.

    And yet you and a few others clamber up onto your fucking high horses anytime anyone dares even suggest that the ‘official’ narrative we’ve been getting hammered into our heads night and day for the past 2 months is open to question.

    Please don’t ever ‘speak’ to me with that tone again, regardless of what topic we’re on.

  85. robbo says:

    ahundredthidiot says:
    11 May, 2020 at 5:59 pm
    I muted the TV this morning as I watched Piers (AKA Lord Haw Haw) and NS debate.

    you should try it, she is just cockahoop with herself, cant stop smiling (people dying), but centre stage, no less, how fulfilling for her.

    Narcissist of the highest order.

    The SNP are fucked from within – to think I have voted for no other Party my whole life and it has come to this.

    What hope….


    to think i voted NO- corrected that for you– no trouble cheers!

  86. Bear fan says:

    The final picture of the boy band is the world famous gay bear porn star Jack Radcliffe! Nice if him to be interested in Scottish Politics!

  87. CameronB Brodie says:

    Ian Brotherhood
    Sorry bud, but your simply not technically qualified to judge what is an isn’t common sense re covid.

  88. Capella says:

    @ Breeks @ Ian Brotherhood – Do cheer up. You’re never going to get a roomful of Scottish people to agree on anything.

    e.g. Robin Williams on the Scots inventing “Golf”. He does a brilliant West of Scotland accent, clearly coached by Billy Connolly.

  89. Effijy says:

    ahundredthidiot says:
    11 May, 2020 at 5:59 pm
    I turned up the TV this morning as I watched Piers (AKA The only person on TV holding the Tories to account) and as a bonus NS was on.

    you should try it, she is just protecting Scotland’s Health and smiled as Piers tried to get her to agree
    Bojo’s TV announcement was a Monty Python sketch that made no sense whatsoever.
    She was repeatedly praised for not following the completely mixed messages from Boris
    cant stop smiling at trolls trying to twist debate they didn’t even listened to.
    people are dying but they want Boris centre stage, how fulfilling for the Idiots.

  90. Alex Montrose says:

    an here was me thinking your mair like Wolfie Smith,


  91. ahundredthidiot says:

    CBB @ 6:20

    You, sir, stand formally accused of arrogance and ignorance of the highest fucking order.


  92. Peter says:

    Victoria is already painting herself as a martyr because people disagree with her on twitter. Playing the new mum card , what sort of person attacks a new mum etc.
    If she cant take criticism, she is in the wrong game.
    This has all the hallmarks of a clique who will stitch up who is standing and where between themselves.
    I’m a believer in the list only strategy , I’m convinced it COULD work , but only if there is a single party attempting it (there wont be ) and an army of activists knocking doors (there wont be).
    I know for a fact that at least one of these women is not what she claims to be , her biography is a litany of lies. This is NOT the list party we were hoping for.

  93. jfngw says:

    @Ian Brotherhood

    Ah! The brain the size of a planet, what an arrogant arsehole you appear to be.

    By the way name is my initials plus gw for Glasgow, I have used it everywhere since 1999, even on ebay, the guardian (no longer on there). I use it because there is very few people (none) with my name in Scotland, and you can trace my birth certificate, address and almost certainly everything else that is available about me online. The Rev knows my name as it is on the email address, you have no need for it.

  94. ahundredthidiot says:


    I’m a troll now am I?

    Only Bigots use the T word.

    If the shoe fits.

  95. Ian Brotherhood says:

    @CamB –

    Keep out of this.

  96. CameronB Brodie says:

    Nah, I’ve laid out all the science, ethics and law you really need in order to draw an informed opinion on the situation. It is not my fault if you’ve not taken the opportunity to inform yourself.

  97. Effijy says:

    Yes you are!

  98. CameronB Brodie says:

    Ian Brotherhood
    And just who do you think your talking to?

  99. CameronB Brodie says:

    Ian Brotherhood
    I’ve busted my nads to inform the covid debate but it’s obviously not registered with you. What’s that all about?

    COVID-19 Economy vs Human Rights: A Misleading Dichotomy

  100. Ian Brotherhood says:

    @jfngw –

    Unless I missed it, you haven’t made the slightest effort to address any of the links and material supplied btl here over the past few weeks.

    Please correct me if you have.

  101. Tinto Chiel says:

    Ian Brotherhood: “FWIW, I include myself in the description of us as daft, brainwashed eejits. There’s not a single one of us has perfect knowledge and awareness of everything.”

    @jfngw: yeah, he sounds really arrogant.

    Many folk will have met IB on marches. “Arrogant” would not be a term any would apply to him, I think.

    As for the subject of the thread, I am struggling to understand how a list-only party can split the independence vote, when huge numbers of SNP votes there convert to very little.

  102. ahundredthidiot says:

    Effijy @ 6:29

    OK, lets go £10k each on a wings Party then – to get the ball rolling, so to speak

  103. Margaret Lindsay says:

    I welcome the new party, I’ll not be voting for any party whose mps think it acceptable to firstly troll their electorate, then block when aforesaid trolling is responded to. I also won’t be voting for biology denying flat earthers who can’t tell the difference between a man and a woman, and try to bring in a blasphemy law to penalise those who can. I think if Wings had started a party, it would have a much greater impact however.

  104. ahundredthidiot says:

    CBB at 6:30

    surely you mean you’re, not your??

  105. CameronB Brodie says:

    I honestly don’t know why I bother, as it appear everyone thinks they’re fucking experts in public health.

    The Evolution of the Right to Health in the Shadow of COVID-19

  106. ahundredthidiot says:

    CBB @ 6:44

    Neither do I.

    I mean, why you bother……

  107. CameronB Brodie says:


  108. Peter says:

    Collette Walker used to fleece the vulnerable and bereaved by claiming to be able to speak to the dead as a ‘spirit medium’
    And folk think she is credible?

  109. CameronB Brodie says:

    I’ll never give up on hope. Full text.

    Responding to Covid?19: How to Navigate a Public Health Emergency Legally and Ethically

  110. Dog biscuit says:

    jfngw,you would’nt know a compelling argument if it kicked you in the face you’re so fuckinv dim.

  111. ahundredthidiot says:

    Effijy @ 6:22

    btw, I listened to the Haw Haw debate on GOOD MORNING BRITAIN, then re-wound it, and watched it back AGAIN, muted.

    It was more fun muted, certainly less hysterical and far more telling.

    Generally though, I don’t watch the telly or the News (bad for your health – physical and mental).

  112. Peter says:

    Collette Walker used to operate as a ‘spirit medium’, fleecing bereaved folk for money by claiming to speak to the dead.
    And people think she is credible?

  113. CameronB Brodie says:

    If folk haven’t figured out that I’m trying to inform the dabate, rather than just quack out my arse, then they haven’t been paying attention.

    Using public health law to contain the spread of COVID-19

  114. Brian Doonthetoon says:

    Sporrans at dawn…

  115. defo says:


  116. Sinky says:

    In the absence of a proper SNP rebuttal unit,this site used to be useful when it exposed false claims made by broadcasters, newspapers and other unionists which we couldn’t elsewhere including the manipulation of google searches.

    Now its mainly naval gazing on issues that less than one per cent of the population is interested in. A great pity.

  117. shug says:

    What a strange place the BBC must be.

    Boris changes the English position and it is Scotland, Wales and Ireland that is out of step.

    Very odd that Boris relaxing the rules means Nicola has to justify why she does not change.

    It is for Boris and Westminster to explain why they are breaking the “in it together and out of it together” approach.

    Only in the servile mind of a BBC Scotland reporter should Nicola have to explain herself.

    What a bunch of Muppets – sorry what an insult to Muppets

  118. jfngw says:

    @Tito Chief

    I posted a fairly light bit of sarcasm about peoples rights to do as they want. He replied with a personal insult plus then preceded to chastise me for not showing him enough respect. that sits in the arrogance area to me. I’ve never met him so I can only judge on a response.

    I admit my replies can be a bit abrasive but I prefer something short and direct, the multi page dissertations on here, sometimes longer than the actual blog post, often leave me cold rather than interested.

  119. ahundredthidiot says:

    I was thinking….a list Party….could we spin it to Unionists that to vote for them would harm the SNP?

    I have, probably like everyone else, ‘mixed’ whatsapp groups. On one of them I said this new Party was there to take seats from the SNP (I know, I know) and the resident Unionists were delighted to hear this. Much ‘clapping’ and ‘praying’ emojis (or whatever the fuck theyre called) – even though I said they were only targeting the regional list seats. (they really are quite thick when it comes to politics – some of these folks hold down really, really good jobs btw!)

    We need to stitch these Unionists up in 2021, the only question is, how? ISP or a Wings Party – remember FPTP works in our favour, if we are smart enough…..

  120. Dog biscuit says:

    At least in the 70s80s chaps had the decency to shave before applying make up.

  121. jfngw says:


    I think that pretty much would have been the coverage from the beginning if we had tried to diverge from London’s ‘excellent’ science. It would have been unrelenting.

    I believe we went down the wrong route but I can understand the reluctance, you would need the a bravery that so far has alluded the SNP leadership.

  122. terence callachan says:

    A new Scottish Independence Party could be risky
    It could split the independence vote If people don’t stick rigidly to voting for it only with their second vote

    If this new party sticks rigidly to asking for second votes
    to increase Scottish independence LIST MPs
    It will be a good new addition
    Here’s hoping they don’t get more ambitious than that because if they do then it will split the independence vote

    Infiltrators to the Scottish independence movement in my opinion won’t change the eventual outcome
    People are smart enough to vote for the right reasons

    SNP will be the leading Scottish Independence Party
    I hope thee greens continued to favour Scottish independence
    I hope the new LIST Scottish Independence Party succeeds

  123. Capella says:

    Well the new party seems to be upsetting all the right people. A good litmus test IMO.

  124. TJenny says:

    If the new IfSP are perceived as being unwanted and ineffectual, before they have even set up their website detailing their aims and candidates, why all the vitriol launched against them?

    They’ve clearly got a few knickers in a twist. (Ooh, knickers , Paul Hutcheon will be along any minute?) 😉

  125. CameronB Brodie says:

    Brian Doonthetoon
    Just a rush of blood to the head.

    Ian Brotherhood
    Sorry if you took that bad Ian, but I’ve been trying to show folk the “art of law”, grounded in social science. We are unlikely to find a better path out of the situation we face.

  126. Arthur C says:

    Tonto Chief- He blow smoke up arse LOLZ

  127. terence callachan says:

    Arguing about each other’s qualification to give an opinion is going nowhere

    Surely everyone here is allowed their opinion
    Even if it’s one that few agree with or nobody agrees with

    Maturity encourages us to listen to all views
    Then agree or disagree ….politely …..even if you really really dislike the opinion

  128. Ian Brotherhood says:

    @CamB (6.34) –

    ‘I’ve busted my nads to inform the covid debate but it’s obviously not registered with you. What’s that all about?’

    Sorry Cam but you haven’t. You really haven’t. I took you point by point through the Swiss Propaganda Research site without telling you where I was getting the quotes and links and we eventually ground out a paragraph we both agreed on. But you simultaneously issued a series of tweets condemning the same site because they didn’t appear, to you, to be concerned enough about global ethics, or something.

    When I did eventually get you to address material which appears to undermine the msm narrative (I can’t remember which specific aspect) you called time-out, saying you weren’t qualified to comment. Upthread you say that I’m not qualified to comment on covid-related stuff because I haven’t the ‘common-sense’.

    So, between us, it seems we’re not qualified to comment on very much at all, and yet we both manage to provide links and sources for possible discussion. Do we do that because we understand perfectly what they contain? Or do we do it because we’d like it if other people – i.e. people here, people we know – would have a look at them and tell us what they think? Isn’t it that simple?

    You would think so, but it plainly isn’t. It’s a measure of how bonkers the situation has become that people who openly state that they don’t know what the fuck is going on and ask questions about it are being angrily belittled and mocked by people who know just as little, if not less, but daren’t admit that unpleasant truth to themselves.

    I don’t mind being wrong, and I certainly don’t mind admitting as much, but I do – very much – mind being spoken to as if I’m an annoyingly over-imaginative child. Mibbe I was wrong to lash out at jfngw earlier because he’s certainly not the only one who’s been doing it lately, but none of us should forget how supporters of independence have been treated over the decades: that fatuous, self-satisfied voice, chortling and tutting as it tells us to mind our place; Denise Mina, on that Radio 4 programme, recalling how, getting closer to indyref1, it was ‘all getting a wee bit silly’. People getting serious about their nation’s future was, heaven forfend, an annoyance for poor Denise…

    We don’t know what is going on with this bastarding bug any more than Joe Soap in Hornsey knows what’s happening about Scottish independence. And there’s no shame, for us or Joe, in admitting that.

  129. Ron Maclean says:

    I’d be surprised if Robert the Bruce and William Wallace would have dreamed of joining a middle ages version of the SNP. Imagine going into battle while your troops trade with the enemy.

    Unfortunately for independence seekers the SNP is currently the only party with an infrastructure capable of taking us to the promised land. Gradualist thinking and policies will ensure that isn’t likely to happen in the foreseeable future.

    Note to Nicola Sturgeon: gradualism does not mean the same as stagnation.

    I keep hoping that Ms Sturgeon, a very capable First Minister, will read s2 of the SNP Constitution and accept her responsibilities as party leader.

    The SNP have been incapable of recognising external talent and using it constructively. That needs to change or splinter groups will continue to form. Why wouldn’t they?

    Arrogance and complacency didn’t get us independence in 2014 and they won’t get us independence now.

  130. CameronB Brodie says:

    So do you think our democracy and legal system are safe from anti-foundational beliefs, just because the electorate aren’t concerned?

  131. jfngw says:

    @ian brotherhood

    In fact I did reply to someone’s links a few days ago, not with links as I have no qualifications in the area to make any educated comments on any scientist. But you will always be able to find someone that disagrees scientifically in disputed areas and the danger of this virus is disputed. There were hundreds of links as links led to other links, I found the few I followed unconvincing, can’t remember why without searching.

    You believe the science you want to believe, at the minute I will stick with the caution until it is proven wrong, the alternative could be many more deaths, not a risk I’m willing to take. Just in the same way you are willing to trust someone called Joe or Breastplate (I’m sure that’s their real names) but chastise someone for not using theirs.

    BTL is not a good place to be if you have a delicate temperament, I’ve been called a fucking cunt and a wank on here today, you have to take the rough with the smooth BTL.

  132. Milo says:

    Yesterday I posted a detailed assessment of the decision by the Scottish Government to delay going into lockdown and discussed the grave consequences of that decision which we are all living with today.

    Today I suggested that the decision to delay lockdown was “nuclear” and that it would bring down Sturgeon. I absolutely expect that.

    As I understand it, none of those comments have been remarked upon. However;

    Can I simply ask that you stop and think about the seriousness of this and get behind the campaign for truth surrounding that decision and support calls for an inquiry.

    If only one person had died as a result of that decision, it would still be extremely serious. But we are talking about thousands of Scottish lives here, lost and impacted terribly, because of a bad decision made at the heart of the Scottish Government which had full knowledge of the Virus and its potential impact.

    The BBC Disclosure programme is on BBC tonight at 8.30 PM. You can expect some startling revelations.

  133. Ian Brotherhood says:

    @jfngw –

    Fair enough. We’re not going to agree so can we just agree to differ?

    Sorry if I offended with the remarks about your ‘name’. Believe me, with my own handle, a delicate temperament is something I lost a long time ago.

    ‘The truth will out’ and all that. Here’s hoping we are all still around to see it – could be a long time coming.

  134. ahundredthidiot says:


    mind put an adult nappy on before night night – we wouldn’t want you wetting the bed tonight thinking of COVID19. (God only knows how many times CBB has had to wash his bed sheets – thankfully the weather is holding to get them dried in time for beddy byes)

    At no point, none, was this deal for eternity. You can ride the ride like a little wean, greetin intae yer teddy bear, or you can throw a fucking saddle on it.

  135. CameronB Brodie says:

    Ian Brotherhood
    If the dozens of scientific and legal texts I’ve linked for folk isn’t informing the debate, then I don’t know what is.

    You’re misrepresenting me, as I remember saying that your outline sounded “about right”. That is about as accurate as any of us are able to specify, as none of us have full knowledge and the science is evolving. And so is the bug. So you can’t base decisions purely on science, you need ethics and law to guide your judgment.

    Sorry bud, but I’m vastly more qualified than you, in this respect. Dealing with this sort of situation is what my professional training was geared toward, so I don’t think it reasonable to consider our judgements of equally the same weight. Not unless you doubt the expert opinion I have suggest as reading material, and have other, well sourced, evidence to offer.

  136. PacMan says:

    As the SNP went from party of protest to party of government and de-facto establishment of Scotland, it was inevitable the the ‘rolling stone’ would gather moss. However, it looks like it has ground to a halt and turned into New-Labour where it pitches itself so far in all points of all parts of the political spectrum to gain enough support to keep in power because it’s core support has no were else to go.

    It makes sense not to put all your eggs in one basket. As long as it doesn’t split the independence vote, a credible alternative political party is the way to go.

  137. Ian Brotherhood says:

    @CamB –


  138. Jim McIntosh says:

    @Peter A Bell 3:02pm

    “ to fatally undermine the SNP at this time REGARDLESS OF ANY FAULTS OR FAILURES is tantamount to a betrayal of Scotland of the same order as that which was perpetrated in 1707”.

    Jesus Christ, get a grip. ?

    It’s times like this I’m glad you’ve blocked me on Twitter.

  139. jfngw says:


    You’re confused I’m not worried about myself but my children and grandchildren. I’m well past the age of worry, I’ve survived cancer, I’ve had tubes and cameras inserted in every orifice (except my ears) in the last few years. So your mild mocking would be funny but is in fact childish.

    Give me freedom or give me death, is that your motto.

  140. ahundredthidiot says:

    CBB @ 7:46

    can you hear yourself?

    seriously man – get real or get gone

  141. CameronB Brodie says:

    When your finished quacking. Full text. 😉

    Global Health Justice and Governance

  142. PacMan says:

    Dog biscuit says: 11 May, 2020 at 7:10 pm

    At least in the 70s80s chaps had the decency to shave before applying make up.

    They didn’t in the sixties.

  143. CameronB Brodie says:

    Ian Brotherhood
    Wow what? Do you really think our perspectives are the same?

    The Quest for Global Justice in Health: A Review of
    Global Health Law by Lawrence 0. Gostin

  144. PacMan says:

    I find the tweet about asking where the funding for this new political party comes from.

    There has been a lot of conspiracy theories that the SNP is being infiltrated by the British state and this GRA nonsense is one of them.

    With having no direct experience of the inner workings of the SNP, that is a plausible explanation. Another plausible one is that political parties throughout the world receive donations from charitable organisations, NGO’s and other sources. These sources have no interest in whether independence succeeds or not, only if they gain influence for the cause they are promoting on the governing political party.

    These individuals may want to question some of the the funding the SNP gets.

  145. ahundredthidiot says:


    yet here you are, determined to saddle your children and grandchildren with huge debt and a massive depression (probably 20 years worth of REAL austerity – not the namby pamby crap of the last decade) to satisfy your fears.

    I am sure they will thank you.

  146. PacMan says:

    I noticed that two of the pictured tweeter has the wife beater shirts on. I wonder if that posing they do in them influences their opinion of woman?

  147. Tinto Chiel says:

    “Tonto Chief- He blow smoke up arse LOLZ.” Liked it, Arthur C 🙂

    @ Tito Chief (from jfngw):”I admit my replies can be a bit abrasive but I prefer something short and direct, the multi page dissertations on here, sometimes longer than the actual blog post, often leave me cold rather than interested.”

    In which case, I think you should address your comments to others, not to Ian B, who is normally to the point.

    @CBB: Cameron, we’ve met and chatted and you are an intelligent guy, with interesting conversation. You don’t need your abstarcts etc to make your points.You often expose your massive monographs all over the place on here for us to muse upon but seem singularly reluctant to consider alternative views. From memory, cirsium, Ian B and others have directed you to other sites for information, mainly the Swiss Propaganda Research compendium, and yet I doubt you have even read some of the papers there.

    None of us can be sure about Covid, because scientists seem to be at odds and many are compromised by governments hiding behind them, but I remain very suspicious of governments like ours who will use any excuse to increase monitoring and reduce our free speech at the same time by taking down pesky Twitter accounts and You Tube videos which run counter to the conventional Covid narrative.

  148. Sensibledave says:


    You wrote “If folk haven’t figured out that I’m trying to inform the dabate, rather than just quack out my arse, then they haven’t been paying attention.“

    You probably haven’t noticed Cammy, but one by one, you are losing the support and confidence of your fellow contributors. You are incapable of demonstrating empathy, you are a bigot and, as demonstrated in the quote above, you display a permanent degree of arrogance that even the most generous person finds intolerable.

    You may, of course, dismiss my comment as coming from “Tory Scum” (because of your innate bigotry) and therefore of no consequence. But you might like to back through recent threads, dispassionately, assess the responses you are getting … and rethink your overall approach.

  149. CameronB Brodie says:

    I can do this all day.

    Do not violate the International Health Regulations during the COVID-19 outbreak

  150. CameronB Brodie says:

    No, you’re simply reading too much into an online personality. Have I hurt your feelings? As if I care, I lack empathy.

  151. ahundredthidiot says:


    In 2009 I said to friends, (who consequently mocked me) that interest rates would not go above 1% for the next ten years.

    I wanted to say 25 years. Save to say, I am now pretty well off and they aren’t, but at least they got a good laugh at me and my idiot nonsense.

    Now, we have COVID.

    I could give my financial prediction for the short/medium term and the long term, but if I did, you really would wet the bed tonight.

  152. ahundredthidiot says:

    CBB @ 8:12

    I don’t doubt you can do this all day.

    All Talk and no Listen.

  153. Sensibledave says:

    Cammy 8.14

    … no Cammy, once again you totally misread the situation. I am totally enjoying your meteoric demise!

  154. CameronB Brodie says:

    Tinto Chiel
    I’m trained to deal with sort of situation, but I would have hoped that might have been apparent. I’m very rust though and lack social capital. So according to my training, I’m linking folk directly to the science and law. So they can form their own informed opinions.

    Covid-19: research and knowledge exchange from Edinburgh Law School

  155. jfngw says:

    @Tinto Chief

    Don’t understand that reply, as that comment was nothing to do with IB but an reference purely to own my sometimes abrasive replies and why they were short. I’m pretty sure IB can stand up for himself and doesn’t need others to defend his position, we disagree, we have agreed on that position.

  156. Breastplate says:

    That comment to Ian Brotherhood (and to the rest of us) sounded incredibly condescending.
    I hope that wasn’t the intention.

  157. jfngw says:


    Sorry, not biting.

  158. Muscleguy says:

    i too will be be happy to vote for them on the basis of the announced policies since they are game changers for me with the SNP and Greens. If they are on the List it will mean I won’t have to spoil my ballot paper.

    Since I discovered that messages on spoiled ballots are read to the candidates I would be more likely to spoil my ballot with ‘None of the Above. Yes to Indy, No to GRA’.

    Anyone else is welcome to pinch that from me. I still have seen no contrition from my SNP MSP over helping kill Margo’s Assisted Dying Bill despite it being backed in polls by a solid majority of the people of Scotland. So at least in the constituency that message may be on my ballot paper with IfSP party on the List.

    I group of dedicated gender critical MSP’s hopefully with lots of women will be asset to the parliament and make the SNP and Greens feel like they need to think again.

    BTW I doubt my MSP will miss my vote, she didn’t last time. And before anyone starts I’m entitled to exercise my conscience as well.

  159. Tinto Chiel says:

    @jfngw and CBB: since my words clearly don’t seem to be getting through, I’ll give up for tonight.

    My name may be silly but I try to get other folks’ name right, jfngw. At least Arthur C was having a laugh.

    What a lot of weather we’ve been having lately 🙂 .

  160. CameronB Brodie says:

    I don’t think I’m better than anyone, but I have a relevant professional training accredited by the Royal Town Planning Institute. I’d have hoped that might have counted for something. I’m not simply stroking my ego.

    Sociology and the social sciences in the COVID-19 crisis

  161. ahundredthidiot says:


    I forgot to add – I am glad you beat cancer.

  162. ahundredthidiot says:

    CBB @8:35

    ‘I don’t think I’m better than anyone…..(insert vague qualifications for being wise/smart/intelligent)….I would hope that counts for something’

    I am sorry that your ego needs stroked Cammy, but the real secret is in knowing the pointlessness of ego itself….therein lies true wisdom.

    Ego, is utterly pointless…..Useless even.

  163. jfngw says:


    I would happily have spoilt my ballot paper for WM election with independence written across it. I believe it is too dangerous to let the London parties have control of Holyrood, my feelings they will introduce legislation that would make independence impossible outside of using violence.

    On the assisted dying, I think most people support it in principle but are still worried about the safeguards to protect vulnerable people. It’s a difficult area and I can understand those that fear they pass legislation that ends up being misused. It’s a one of those lose-lose situations for those dying in agony and politicians frightened of being held culpable.

  164. Mike d says:

    PacMan 8.06pm.(conspiracy theories that the snp have been infiltrated by the british state). Lol. Oh rest assured my friend thats there’s nothing conspiratorial about it. You can do as the ostrich does.

  165. defo says:

    Stroking it?
    There’s a fire risk with that much friction!
    Cue a barrage of psycho-babble.

    What sorry town had the privilege?

  166. Mike d says:

    Ahundredtheidiot.8.18pm. Why? Is your money in an offshore account??.

  167. Breastplate says:

    I don’t at all discount that you are learned.
    I think it’s great that people are knowledgeable, schooling is great for enhancing knowledge, it unfortunately cannot enhance intelligence, the same way no schooling will not diminish intelligence.

    Knowledge can be perceived as intelligence or even camouflage stupidity.
    Thinking your right and being right are two different things.

  168. CameronB Brodie says:

    I’ve only been supporting the international rule of law and human rights. If you think that wrong than perhaps I’m speaking to the wrong folk.

  169. CameronB Brodie says:

    Go fuck yourself. Is that psycho enough?

  170. jfngw says:

    @Tinto Chiel

    Sorry about the name, it’s a combination of my ropey eyesight (my glasses are great for reading but a bit rubbish for computer use) and my keyboard not always registering the key presses (definitely the keyboard and not me, I maintain this strongly).

  171. ahundredthidiot says:

    Mike D

    No, it’s not off-shore, I wouldn’t do that. Greed is not in my make up, financial prudence most certainly is though.

    A little piece of my soul died recently investing in the stock market during COVID, but if my siblings/nieces/nephews are going to face financial hardship after this (and they will), the least I can do is help them out – and I can only do that by investing when blood is running in the streets. Maybe I will be lucky enough to pay off some or all of their mortgages.

  172. defo says:

    Do you have a paper on that fruitloop, or should I improvise?


  173. Ron Maclean says:

    @CameronB Brodie 9:00pm

    Is that from the mission statement of the Royal Town Planning Institute?

  174. CameronB Brodie says:

    When have you ever contributed anything other than in insight into your ego?

    From impossible to inevitable: corporate justice in times of COVID-19
    The need for supply chain due diligence and conditions on corporate bailouts

  175. CameronB Brodie says:

    Ron Maclean
    I’m not a member so I’m a free agent. 🙂

    Sorry for the loss of the rag but I have really been digging deep, and its just a bit deflating that it doesn’t appear to have made the slightest difference. Sigh.

  176. Mike d says:

    Jfngw 8.47pm. They can introduce legislation to make independence impossible. And politicians might be frightened of being held culpable, but they (politicians)would certainly be frightened/terrified of leaving the house.

  177. ahundredthidiot says:

    Jesus, CBB, for the love of God and Jehovah, can you please start posting without links!!

    Just once….try it….go on….be your own man… it…

    …do it…

  178. jfngw says:


    I was probably overstating, you never really beat it, you just defer the fateful day. It will probably get me in the end, but I’ve actually had a good life, never rich but never destitute.

  179. Mike d says:

    Ahundredtheidiot. Well fair play to you. But if you can only invest when blood is running in the streets. Then gun running comes to mind.

  180. Tinto Chiel says:

    @jfngw: you caught me brushing the old toothy pegs.

    No sweat re my daft handle: we’re all getting older, and me older than most. Forget it.

  181. CameronB Brodie says:

    You appear to be on Trump’s wavelength, so why would I care what you think about me.

  182. ahundredthidiot says:


    then Lang may yer lum reek

  183. Mike d says:

    Mike d. Remember as my Irish friends used to tell me ,your enemies will only have to be lucky once. But they will have to be lucky the rest of their lives.

  184. ahundredthidiot says:

    Mike D

    I was still selective in my portfolio……and hopefully avoided any gun running……tho cant be sure… is true that those demons can never truly be avoided, hence the loss of Soul…..

  185. Ron Maclean says:

    @CameronB Brodie

    Take it easy, post without the links and be ignored like most of us.

  186. CameronB Brodie says:

    Ron Maclean 😉

  187. defo says:

    More bullshit plucked from your arse fruits.
    How many hundred WoS posts have descended into the C Bullshit B show?

    Cue claims for different treatment for people with ‘special ‘ needs.

    Keep it up fruits, it’s fun.
    I’ve not played this game much since pre 2014 at the hootsmon/evening news.

    What became of Grahamski?

  188. ahundredthidiot says:


    I am a (kinda) fan of Noam Chomsky, who is a terrible liberal!, but he has taught me a lot.

    for example, I always had LBJ down for Vietnam, but it was actually JFK. Obama was probably the worst ever US president, despite the colour of his skin, religion, sexuality, so yes, i am ok with Trump. he walked into N Korea and shook hands, avoided war with both Russia and Syria. he is currently avoiding war with Iran and potentially China and taking on the deep state within the US by clearing out the agencies (not an easy task).

    The Flynn affair could actually result in Obama facing charges, and let’s not get into the Clintons who could actually be facing real jail time like their buddy Epstein.

    You have a lot to learn you paddawan, sleep well tonight

  189. velofello says:

    Events and circumstances that help form my views:

    Through 2019 we had several impressive AUOB marches. A few notable SNP MPs took part. The SNP hierarchy made no attempt to encourage and engage as a means to pressurise Westminster.

    The Alphabet women, are still in the SNP and payroll (?).Women who conspired and were prepared to send a 65 year old man to prison. A man who had devoted his life to the SNP and independence. Presumably the SNP hierarchy considers these women fit and proper persons to be engaged on SNP government business.The Westminster appointed person guiding the actions against him, quoted as saying ” battle lost war goes on” is still in post.

    The SNP have turned their back: on an woman SNP member based on solely on rumours of her property dealings; on a married MSP who had I understand (?) goofed on a predictive text message to a woman associate: on a recently elected MP due to an age old text message.

    Absolutely nobody I’ve spoken with supports the SNP proposed GRA musings.

    Last week we learned of the membership of the Scottish Affairs committee at Westminster. I expected the SNP MPs to refuse to take participate.

    And finally, wouldn’t it be logical for the SNP to actively, privately, encourage the formation of an Independence List Only party?

  190. twathater says:

    I posted this comment on Peter Bell’s website in response to his post that he reposted above Sorry for length

    I have commented on your posts and ASKED and PLEADED with the SNP membership to take back control of the party , as a non member but a voter for the SNP I have ONLY 1 route to show my disgust , anger and feeling of being betrayed by a party that’s raison detre is supposedly independence and that is to NOT vote for them
    I have stated on here and on other blogs that the SNP hierarchy are basically BLACKMAILING independence supporters , they and their members ridiculing non member voters by threatening that if you don’t vote SNP and NS you will get a yoonionist party in government and indy is gone , that is self explanatory

    You and other SNP members want to berate and ridicule people who are so disgusted by the clusterfuck that is the current situation that they are attempting to divert around it and show their determination to gain our independence , yet that honest determination has to be mocked and denigrated because it might ( may , possibly ) affect the SNP vote

    I ask you with respect Mr Bell WTAF are the membership of the SNP doing to rectify the clusterfuck , the absence of ANY ROUTE to independence , the capitulation and subservience of our sovereignty by the FM , the lack of ANY legal challenge to the ICJ , the refusal to be taken out of the EU against our expressed wishes , the reviled and abhorred GRA and HATE LAWS and so on and so on

    I have read of MANY members writing and complaining to the hierarchy and to NS herself but still the clusterfuck goes on , amplified by Wishart , Nicolson , Smith and others blocking members and ignoring them on twatter

    So quite honestly unless and until the MEMBERSHIP take back control of the SNP party and address the clusterfuck people will resort to desperate measures , DON’T BLAME THE VOTERS FOR WANTING INDEPENDENCE BLAME THE SNP AND NS FOR NOT GIVING US THE CHANCE TO GET IT

  191. Colin Alexander says:

    If you want to win independence by the British electoral system,

    Here’s how you do it:

    Get a pro-indy majority in the Westminster Commons and House of Lords and pro-indy UK head of state.


    Scotland will NEVER become independent unless Scotland declares it is no longer part of the United Kingdom, so not bound by UK parliamentary sovereignty. eg Legal denunciation of the Treaty of Union.

    The prospects of that happening with the current crop of MPs and MSPs in the SNP are Greens are ZERO.

    The chances of that happening with a majority of the current SNP MPs and MSPs, even with support from Wings or ISP List MSPs, are also zero.

  192. bittie45 says:

    Boris yesterday talked about getting children back to primary school.

    Should the younger children not be one of the last groups to go back since they will have less hygiene discipline than the older years and be an even greater infection vector (and out-of-sync with other counties older starting ages).

    Back to square one with unnecessary deaths.

  193. CameronB Brodie says:

    Nah, I’ll call it as it is. You simply appear to be rather narrow minded and to think quite highly of yourself. Prove me wrong.

  194. bittie45 says:

    So what efforts are being made to develop military NBCD gear for civilian use and distribute that PPE with instructions, training and testing, the development and stockpiling of which should have been done well over a decade ago?

    Track and trace, another tool, but not one that physically gives power to people to protect themselves. Quality PPE is not 100% effective, but a bunch better than a simple cloth covering the face.

    Where in the great scheme of things is a coordinated and permanent nation-scale manufacturing plan. Or are we to wait years until a vaccine is developed or everyone gets infected through inevitible further waves after lockdown exhaustion.

    Population-level PPE distribution is cruicial, because realistically its only a matter of time before an extinction-grade infection comes our way. If Westminster wont do it, then Holyrood MUST. For goodness sake leaders, WAKE UP!

  195. jfngw says:

    BBC Scotland having in depth revue of Scotgov response to the virus. Their conclusion is if we had locked down earlier then we could have saved 2000 lives. No such review of Westminster yet.

    Of course they miss out all the things Scottish Gov couldn’t do, no furlough payments to companies as they don’t have the power or money, no ability to control the borders, no ability to control air traffic, no idea what scientific advice they were given.

    Can you imagine the MSM shit storm if they had diverged from WM and ignored the scientific advice.

    The Scotgov response was crap (scientific term) in my opinion but I don’t hold them totally responsible. That I lay at the 2014 No voters.

  196. Graeme says:

    twathater says:
    11 May, 2020 at 9:32 pm

    I posted this comment on Peter Bell’s website in response to his post that he reposted above Sorry for length

    I commented on your post on Peters blog, you said exactly how I feel only more eloquently than I can, well said

  197. ahundredthidiot says:

    Colin @ 9:34

    OK, lets say you’re right (although I favour an in excess of 50/50 in 2021 would swing it under international law), say you, what solution do you propose Sir?!

    I am all ears and eyes and full a muscle!

  198. jfngw says:


    Yes, getting 5/6 year olds to socially distance and wear masks doesn’t look like a sound plan to me. They want to chase each other and run about.

  199. Mike d says:

    Ahundredtheidiot 9.20pm fair play at least your honest. Although if you needed to unload some armalites..?.

  200. admiral says:

    jfngw says:
    11 May, 2020 at 9:40 pm
    BBC Scotland having in depth revue of Scotgov response to the virus. Their conclusion is if we had locked down earlier then we could have saved 2000 lives. No such review of Westminster yet.

    ISTR that when Sturgeon announced a week or so before the actual lockdown she was thinking of imposing a lockdown, when Johnson was adamant there would be no lockdown, the Yoon MSM, including BBC Scotland went ape and demanded that she wait until the Yoon government said it was time to lockdown.

  201. Mike d says:

    Ps. For the benefit of the court m’lud I meant araldites. Lol

  202. Capella says:

    Goodness. What a fractious night it’s been on here. I’ve just watched the last two episodes of Outlander. Traumatic though it was, the story had a certain coherence, which the disputes on here lack. Why is everone arguing about a virus? Do some people dispute that it exists? Or that it is life threatening?

    Has anyone been hurt?

    Unless you’re a virologist or an expert in infectious diseases your opinion is just as important as everyone else’s i.e. not very. Stay at home, until you know the infectious rate of Covid -19 and the death rate. If you think you do know that, then tell us.

  203. Mike d says:

    Admiral. All my Tory neighbours down here in englandshire are screaming nicola was right.although it was actually ‘sturgeon was right they said. But you know what I mean. ‘Those damned SCOTCH are getting above themselves. Impudence swine trying to put their betters in their place what!

  204. jfngw says:

    @Mike d

    Yeh, you stick to that if you can, you sound like you’ve been hardened or is it cured?

  205. jfngw says:


    I think the disagreements are about staying at home, some disagree.

  206. ahundredthidiot says:


    Maybe you should stick to soaps and dramas….of late….disappointing.

  207. Colin Alexander says:


    1. Only vote for or give any support to those that refuse to swear allegiance / that renounce allegiance to the UK’s head of state and that are seeking a mandate to declare the Union dissolved.

    Or as Breeks would put it: only support those that will assert Scottish constitutional sovereignty – the common sovereignty of the people of Scotland.

    2. Only give time, money and support to those described above.

    That means no support for the current SNP and Greens. No support to those who want to become colonial parliament List MSPs. That’s just playing British party politics.

    3. Promote Scottish sovereignty. Promote legal denunciation of the Union. Promote the establishment of a Scottish parliament exercising sovereignty in service of the sovereign people of Scotland.

  208. Mike d says:

    Jfngw. No, beyond salvation. Lol.

  209. MorvenM says:

    Well said Twathater, and thanks for getting us back on track.

    Individual members and constituency groups cannot change the direction of the SNP now. It needs a clear out at the top. As Capella said, Colette Walker stood against the awful Rhiannon Spear for Women’s Officer and narrowly lost. so she’s tried to change things from within.

    I find it ironic that Peter Bell, who’s attacked the SNP for years (rightly) for its lack of commitment to indy, is now attacking list party supporters for allegedly abandoning the cause.

    A huge vote for the SNP would only be taken by the leadership as a mandate (yes, seriously this time!) for the GRA madness and the odious Hate Crimes bill.

    They need a rocket up them, and the sooner the better.

  210. Pete says:

    You do realise that in the UK there have only been 2 deaths in the under 10 age group and zero in Scotland. The 2 had underlying conditions.
    Children are virtually immune
    In fact under 45’s are very unlikely to get a fatal dose.
    Don’t know what your fear is?

  211. MaggieC says:

    While all the arguing is going on here on other subjects , can I just say that Scotland will not be getting Independence anytime soon as any other women that I know will not be voting for the Snp or the Greens in 2021 while all these young ones listed above and more are pushing their policies onto the parties .

    As long as they want to push Gra or the new hate crime bill through Holyrood you can forget Women voting for them .

    We would rather spoil our ballot papers than vote for them .

  212. Sarah says:

    Donda at 3.38 says “I know very senior people in SNP have floated the idea of an independence list party. Best ignore Pete Wishart.”

    Well, that is something encouraging to sleep on. Fingers crossed that something positive comes out of it and quickly.

  213. ahundredthidiot says:

    Colin A @ 10:13

    with respect, and while I agree with the sentiment, that will not secure Scotlands Independence.

    What we need to do is get inside the Greens and the Labour Party, at least to safeguard a half dozen votes. Secondly, we need a list Party that will ensure we dominate Holyrood.

    lastly…and this is the hardest part…we need to reform the SNP from within (for they are the greatest enemy of Scotlands fight for independence and converse our only real hope within our lifetimes – so we must turn the tide)

    We all might need to get out hands dirty.

  214. ahundredthidiot says:

    I am a sheep.

    I was saying to a mate of mine recently….I think that dog (who really doesn’t like us)…and that fella (who we really all like and trust)….are probably working together – against us.

    I am a Conspiracy Theorist.

  215. bittie45 says:

    Pete, Hi.

    Not saying that they aren’t immune (although even that is not certain – its early days yet – in 10 years we MIGHT be more certain). However please provide a link to research which proves that they don’t pass on the infection.

    Also, allowing the infection to widely spread will cause a high enough percentage of the vulnerable to become ill that it overloads the NHS, as has already very nearly been demonstrated by an incompetent (at best) administration. If this case if you, I or anyone else requires life-saving treatment, what happens then?

  216. Mike d says:

    Let’s face the reality, as much as its painful, Scotland is slowly being assimilated into greater England. Its already too late for Wales. We will be out populated/bred out by the influx from (I wont say the E word) our southern around the next 10 the rate of southern emigration to Scotland. The more enlightened among you know where I’m coming from. Ps. You’ll never convert enough of the incomers, though good luck with that. I had always hoped I would see indy in my lifetime as did my 80 plus year old mum who passed away in April who was a lifelong SNP voter.So from me its goodnight Scotland.

  217. Mike d says:

    The world needs a vaccine against covid 19. SCOTLAND needs a vaccine against unionism.

  218. shug says:

    just heard there will be an announcement tomorrow abut furlough payments stopping.

    Blue touch paper springs to mind

  219. Liz g says:

    Twathater @ 9.32
    Well said Twathater,couldn’t agree more.
    If this party is to be successful it will be because the Yes movement want it to be.

    That’s what’s on the table here,we’ve marched in our thousands,we’ve voted time and again,we’ve networked,we’ve set media outlets up and supported them,we’ve used every communication route available to the SNP…..and all across the movement we’ve wanted clear decisive action towards Indy.
    Well…this is what’s left,to get people of the movement and from the movement to form a party that will take our position right into Holyrood.
    We wanted action ever since the Brexit vote…
    Well… here it is ….either the Yes movement will get behind it fund it and vote it into Holyrood or it won’t…..there is now a party available to them and that’s a means we didn’t have before….
    It’s not polished and certainly not perfect..just like our marches and our media..but it’s there if we want it..and if we want it…it can get the job done.

  220. robbo says:

    I did say months ago they’ll be no free money. Christ i’ve not even claimed yet,can’t do it till Thursday. It will be pittance if i do get it and not convinced it will hit my bank account in couple of weeks anyhow.

    No surprises there then. As long all the doe has went to big businesses and farmer landowners ,who cares about us minions .

  221. Mike d says:

    Unionism brought death and destruction to northern Ireland. Scotland, are you prepared to do the same??.

  222. Liz g says:

    Sarah @ 10.25
    Something else encouraging to ponder 🙂
    Colette Walker has,as has been pointed out,stood as a candidate for SNP women’s officer and lost only narrowly.
    Which means that a lot of SNP members voted for her and her stance on the GRA.
    I don’t think it will be much of a leap in the privacy of the voting booth for them to vote for her again,especially the members who feel strongly against the party’s stance on the GRA and those who also saw the tactics used during that campaign.

  223. Mike d says:

    Scotland. throw away the chains of unionism,you can be the negro slave who has escaped their, masta!

  224. jfngw says:


    Children are not immune, they just have little symptoms. They are in effect carriers that you are not aware of because of these lack of symptoms.

  225. Mike d says:

    Ps , unless your team is still in debt to HMRC. Pmsl

  226. Colin Alexander says:

    The Continuity Bill and refusal of consent for Brexit was overwhelmingly passed at Holyrood.
    It achieved nothing.

    In the international arena, it was ruled that the Chagos Islands belongs to Mauritius. It achieved nothing. The Chagos Islanders remain outcasts from their homeland. The UK just continues to do what UK Parliament decides.

    Like 300 years ago, many of our Scottish politicians have been bought off.

    Like the USA, India, Ireland other colonies, Scotland will only become independent when the common people refuse to submit to British rule and will no longer tolerate a Scottish political class in the pay of and service of the imperial power UK state.

    Don’t ask me when that will be or if it will ever be. I don’t know.


    But good luck to those who dream of freedom via Imperial servants in a mickey mouse colonial parliament.

    May your colonial servitude and false hopes in the SNP and Holyrood not trouble your soul too much.

  227. Julia Gibb says:

    All the debates seem to go round and round in circles. However the reality is very simple in my view.
    1. The SNP decided to champion the trans cause over women’s rights
    2. The SNP have chosen NOT to take on any form of confrontation with the State.

    Only a powerful List Party with several seats will change things. The Greens are even greater supporters of GRA than the SNP and even weaker on Independence than the SNP.

    The question is: How do we get an effective List Party in time for next year. Please, please can we get ONE label that everyone can unite behind. Reverse 1. and 2. and we have a core manifesto.

  228. jfngw says:


    I hope you didn’t annoy Mr Bell, he can have a fiery temper at times, makes the Rev look mild mannered. I always think of Blackadder and the red hot poker when he is not happy.

  229. Training Day says:

    Ianb @7.26pm

    Last time we ‘spoke’ was at New Year when you made a shout out for all the old guard on here to signify if they were still around. Your last paragraph in the post at the above time encapsulates why the old guard used to come here. ‘It is not doubt which makes mad, it is certainty” said a no doubt dubious dilettante about Hamlet’s most famous speech. As you have often said on here, more power to ye, sir.

  230. jfngw says:

    @Colin Alexander

    The Continuity Bill never effectively passed because it was negated by Westminster, that is the trap we can never escape using the system approved by Westminster. They always hold the trump card of being able to delay and change the devolution agreement.

    We need a better way, I wish I had the knowledge to know what it is. Many get angry but have no actual plan beyond their anger or one that even I can see won’t work.

    I’m pretty sure that WM will resort to violence, they always have, why would they be different with Scotland. Not directly but through agents so they need to intervene.

  231. cirsium says:

    @Ian Brotherhood, 5.10, 7.26. good comments

    On the subject of being played, have you read these articles by Vanessa Beeley

    After reading these articles, this quotation from The Brother Karamazov by Fyodor Dostoevsky came to mind. It is the Grand Inquisitor talking about the citizens of Seville.
    “We will monitor everything, regulate everything, order and legislate for everything – and be their conscience too – so that they do not have to trouble themselves to think, overly; or, to be obliged to make decisions. They exist only to serve us, the élite who rule over them: The millions, numerous as the sands of the sea, who are weak, must exist only for the élite, who rule over them. “

  232. jfngw says:

    It’s all gone tits up for the Westminster government on corona virus. To avoid the responsibility and they hope to protect their skins they have told everyone in England to be alert. Because if you now catch the virus it’s because you have not been alert and not controlled it, it is your fault not theirs.

    Not sure this subterfuge will work, it would need a pretty gullible public. They would need to be gullible enough to vote for a buffoon as PM.

  233. CameronB Brodie says:

    If your social science isn’t coherent with critical realism, your way of understanding is likely to be dodgy. So can I ask what exactly are your philosophical foundations and your scientific position?

    Lakoff’s Global Health Security and the Pathogenic Imaginary

  234. Mike d says:

    Jfngw. Westminster will resort to some form of intimidation. But they should be very careful and not incite/encourage incidents like canary wharf.

  235. Mike d says:

    Jfngw .replying to your 11.32pm post

  236. Mike d says:

    Violence begets violence. Perpetrators cannot hide.

  237. Polly says:

    I agree it is disgusting these women have faced despicable comments especially about disability and accent/place of birth or right to take part in politics here. All SNP claims of inclusivity are burnt to ashes if Nicola Sturgeon doesn’t immediately publicly reprimand party members saying such things. She has shown her mettle for far less. Considering she made her stand on being so welcoming to anyone who wishes to live here this type of attack on any new Scot being overlooked is worse than any others I know she has overlooked previously. Of course not all supposed independence supporters will be, but the ones who are SNP are despicable.

    On the new party itself, I disagree with comments saying there must be a big name to lead it. To have a Wings or Salmond or Lesley Riddoch party would garner more headlines certainly, possibly more votes, but it doesn’t mean this one must necessarily fail. It was only last year that big names who were already MPs created the Independent Group, or TIG, or Change whatever and they lost all their seats in the process. Infighting, the public perception of betrayal of their previous parties in the manner in which they resigned, defections from the new party and lack of coherence of vision or cohesion as a group did for them. The two women mentioned so far in the Scottish party won’t have some of the baggage of TIG and the fact that Colette Walker led the votes at all but the final round against Spear must have made her name and stance known with SNP members and might do well even outwith SNP voters if she is able to get her message out. I do agree it would help to have bigger profile supporters. If they can garner enough support to give SNP a bloody nose in even one area a la Neale Hanvey they’ll have succeeded for me for it will have shown we can achieve our aim against them if necessary, should they stand in our way.

  238. Mike d says:

    Jfngw .11.44pm. (It would need a pretty gullible public) aw c’mon ffs.

  239. ben madigan says:

    @ Capella who said:

    “Stay at home, until you know the infectious rate of Covid -19 and the death rate”.

    Totally agree Capella.

    Here are some proposed criteria that should be satisfied when thinking of exiting lockdown. Hopefully Nicola will be using something similar when deciding it’s Scotland’s time to start loosening a bit.

    Anyway, people can keep an eye on these parameters as the daily tolls come in and make their own judgement on when’s safe for them and their families.

  240. Mike d says:

    Polly. Well said, I’d like to see Alex back, but in an advisory role as the scum Yoon press would try to blacken us with their too wee too poor shite.

  241. Joe says:

    RE: Coronavirus

    I suggest finding a medium to discuss this. There are people here who are either unhinged or on a payroll – waste of keystrokes.

    People need to be made more aware of the bullshit and the consequences of apathy on this

  242. Joe says:

    I am committed. I will not be poisoned by dirty, lying bunch of rich motherfuckers who want to use health like a protection racket. I dont give a single fuck what the cretins who can’t handle an independent thought think. Im prepared to break laws if need be. Id rather it didnt come to that. People need more awareness on this.

  243. Clapper57 says:

    @ Joe @ 12.27am

    “I suggest finding a medium to discuss this.”

    Joe, I hope you are not suggesting we have a seance ?

    Woah…only joking…then again if you are suggesting THAT kind of medium…can you get them to ask the spirits if it’s safe?….as in ….on here I mean…’s getting like a festival of keyboard warriors in a cyber war zone just now….Lol

  244. Joe says:


    Yeah. Hee hee. Id find it funny too. If my head was far enough up my arse to be blissfully unaware as to why people might be somewhat concerned. Hee hee.

  245. Clapper57 says:

    @ Joe @ 12.51pm


  246. Colin Alexander says:


    Correct. For as long as we are part of the UK we are subject to English rule of law / convention which asserts the sovereignty of UK Parliament: Crown, Lords and Commons.

    It is a system in which Scotland can NEVER obtain a parliamentary majority in favour of Scottish independence, as the Union is specifically designed to guarantee England always has overwhelming control of UK Parliament. So control of Scotland.

    For as long as we are part of the UK, unless UK Parliament votes for Scotland’s independence, we will never be independent.

    There would probably only be particular circumstances where UK Parliament would “approve” Scottish independence: e.g. that’s when Scotland has already declared the Union dissolved and no longer recognises UK Parliament as sovereign, and the UK state believes maintaining power over Scotland and her assets by force or coercion would cost it more than it would gain.

    Ghandi helped achieve Indian independence by mass non-violent civil resistance to British colonial rule in tandem with politicians who refused to accept continued British rule and colonial devolution. Politicians who were resolute that India would become independent whether the UK agreed or not.

    Ghandi was also prosecuted by the British authorities as a criminal.

  247. CameronB Brodie says:

    I just can’t help myself. 🙂

    Coronavirus: Mirror of an ‘Examined life’

    Suraj Gogoi applies Ivan Illich’s concept of ‘examined life’ to the different responses to COVID-19 and other infectious illnesses.

    Two American nationals fled from the Alappuzha Medical College in Kerala when the doctors in the hospital suggested that they should take the COVID-19 test. They were later caught when they were trying to leave the country. There are many other examples of people escaping medical intervention. What does such ignorance/disobedience tell us?

    A quick glance at the Spanish flu pandemic in 1918-19 will show us similar behaviour from people – of ignorance and disobedience. Ignorance is not something which is specific to a culture or ethnicity. The state of San Francisco in the United States during the pandemic flu imposed a compulsory order to wear a mask. Wearing it was considered a duty. Many of them disobeyed the order and were arrested and subsequently fined for their refusal. A small anti-mask league was formed to oppose such an official decree.

    Such health-related policing is not new. Health as a qualitative norm, notes Ivan Illich Illich (1992), goes back to the emergence of the nation-states. It was a norm for the armies, and in the 19th century with the growth of capitalism and mercantile economy we see this emphasis being imposed on the workers and mothers. Illich adds that health began as a duty and entitlement, later ‘transmogrified into a pressing need’….

  248. Angry Weegie says:

    I can’t agree more with Stu. If we don’t get rid of the woke minority that seems to have taken over SNP policy making, independence will never come and we may not even have a party of independence left.

  249. Brian Doonthetoon says:


    ‘Fugitive on the run’: Interpol issues WANTED notice for wife of US diplomat over crash that killed UK teen

    It’s also on the BBC news web site so it must be true.

    Harry Dunn crash: Suspect Anne Sacoolas ‘wanted internationally’

  250. John Thomson says:

    Vote SNP 1 wings or other indy list party 2, prefer wings myself

  251. susan says:

    I’m up for voting for a pure Indy list party, I just hope ISP isn’t a “woman centric” vehicle, it needs to be broader based. I like the idea of a Wings party but where I live I’ll just vote for what I can.

  252. susan says:

    As for the Greens…no self respecting woman should vote for such misogynists, I certainly couldn’t. Science deniers, the lot of them.

  253. Breeks says:

    terence callachan says:
    11 May, 2020 at 7:25 pm

    ….Maturity encourages us to listen to all views
    Then agree or disagree ….politely …..even if you really really dislike the opinion…

    I agree.

    I would also like to point out that assuming the SNP holds it’s vote, and the List Party properly delivers an adequate number of seats for an outright pro-Indy majority, we are still only returning to the place we have stood before, and from that place, we did not secure Independence, nor indeed draw a single step closer to Independence.

    Being King of the Castle in Holyrood means NOTHING if the Castle of Holyrood is just a lower House of UK Government, and currently, that is exactly the position for Holyrood being cemented into permanence by this unfathomably supine and subordinate SNP “Government”.

    DO SOMETHING DIFFERENT Scotland. If we actually want Independence delivered, we MUST weaponise the Sovereign Constitution of Scotland, and use that to squash each and every colonial encroachment suffered upon Scotland by Westminster, but equally, we must also use it to squash each and every supine abdication and erosion of Scotland’s sovereign authority suffered upon Scotland by a deeply flawed “Scottish” Government which doesn’t respect the Scottish Constitution, and stumbles from one clumsy blunder to another as it goes round in circles like some clown who insists on wearing a blindfold.

    The List Party approach will on take us back to where we’ve been before. We need a better plan to turn that advantage into meaningful change.

    How many times must it be said? Constitution. Constitution. Constitution. Trust that sovereignty is not just a word, but the key to unlock our chains. With it we win, without it, we will only ever be pretendy kings of the sandpit.

    The fight for Independence should not be focused on whether we are or are not sovereign, but having the sovereign legitimacy recognised as it properly was before the Union, and wasn’t undone by that Union, merely imprisoned by it’s illegitimate sophistry. It is the illegitimate sophistry of the UK Union which needs undone and shattered to the extent that the international family of nations rightfully recognise Scotland as the sovereign Nation it properly is and always has been.

    If we dispute sovereignty, then we Scots are fighting amongst ourselves. We’re very good at doing that, but that is not where victory lies. Sovereignty is ours. That battle was won emphatically in 1320 / 1328. The fight to overthrow the UK Union can only succeed when it alters the established convention held as true, legal and legitimate by the International Community that the UK Parliament is sovereign. Scotland must prove to that International Community that the established convention is NOT true, NOT legal, and NOT legitimate.

    We have the fourth horseman to the attend the Union’s apocalypse in that the false convention of UK Parliamentary Sovereignty is itself undone by Westminster’s colonial subjugation of Scotland’s democratic rejection of Brexit.

    Waken up Scotland. Do not expend ourselves on existential battles and quarrels which won’t deliver change. We must be much more Constitutionally “savvy” and fight the one strategic battle that changes everting. When we do, we win, and Scotland is free.

  254. susan says:

    A successful pro Indy list party might put a brake on the SNPs obsession with anti science, anti woman and unscientific drivel. You might be prepared to put up with all this nonsense becoming law on the drive to independence; I’m not.

  255. susan says:

    I DO agree with you Breeks, on the constitutional route to independence. Sorry if I sound strident, I’m not very good at articulating my concerns.

  256. Robert Louis says:

    Breeks at 0621am,

    Yet again Breeks has nailed the key point here. The SNP could win every single seat in the Scottish and UK parliaments, and under the current leadership Scotland would be no closer to independence. Why? because according to the FM, we would still need permission from London to hold a referendum, to determine if Scotland really wants independence.

    It is absurd. That is where we currently are. If you had told me twenty years ago, that the SNP would be the Scottish government, with almost every scottish seat at Westminster, the most MSPs and councillors, I’d have assumed independence would either have happened already, or be well underway. Yet it isn’t.

    So, whilst I think a list party might help wake the SNP up a bit, to focus on independence, it makes no difference, until this pathetic subservient attitude to London stops.

    Just imagine if it were the Tories who had had the electoral success of the SNP in Scotland. Does anybody imagine for one second they would be pussy-footing around, procrastinating about things. Does anybody believe they would have held back from pursuing THEIR policies?? Does anybody seriosuly think a TORY FM, would hold back from pursuing their policies by saying stupid things like “I need to remember I am the first minister for ALL voters, not just Tories” No, of course not. So WHY,WHY,WHY, in heaven’s name are the SNP so resolutely determined NOT to pursue independence???

    Excuse after excuse after excuse. My honest opinion is we don’t just need a list party, but a NEW full independence party for Scotland, since the SNP are no longer interested in it – oh, except during elections when they mutter things about constitutional changes or somesuch, but nothing reesolute or solid.

    I fully exoect at the next election to see the SNP state that “we really, really promise, that THIS time, we really really will call an indy referendum, if re-elected” I no longer trust them or believe them. As soon as they get re-elected, they will YET AGAIN find another convenient excuse NOT to pursue independence. They are all too damn cosy in their well paid jobs, playing at pretendy politics. You might call it, ‘the Pete Wishart principle’.

    The section 30 p*sh, is just that, p*sh. A convenient excuse for the SNP to do nothing while earning lots of money. Totally, totally, pathetic. Indeed I would not be surprised if we find out many years from now, that the FM actually asked the PM to refuse a section 30, with all the supposed disagreement just a floor show for the voters.

  257. jockmcx says:

    Too late the hero,

    Piers Clashes with Andrew Bridgen over Boris Johnson’s Lockdown Exit Plan | Good Morning Britain

  258. Golfnut says:

    Well looks like the BBC still consider Nicola and the SNP as a threat to the union.

    There’s a caveat to that of course, while they continue with this GRA legislation, they themselves become a threat to independence.
    I posted a link on here a couple of days ago to an article concerning the GRA agenda being pushed by other governments, quietly and under the radar despite being in the middle of a world-wide pandemic. Why? What are the drivers for this obsession that caters for less than 0.2% of the population. Who or what is behind this threat to civil liberties.

    Anyway back to covid-19, it is nonsense to suggest that the SG should or could have taken a different approach to the rest of the UK. Without the fiscal levers and border control, without the necessary testing equipment and infrastructure, plus what would appear to be a UK gov deliberately hindering the procurement process for the devolved governments, just how would it have been possible for the SG to have achieved this alternative strategy.
    The SG carried out its own pandemic resilience exercise in 2015 (Silverswan) which although useful to the SG and NHS Scotland, Jeanne Freeman openly states that it didn’t prepare them for Coronavirus. Test,trace and isolate, the only clinical alternative to lockdown wasn’t part of the resilience exercise because Silverswan was based on a flu pandemic.
    It did however prepare them in other ways, PPE for instance was stored which may well be why the UK gov went to such lengths to hinder procurement and why Care homes became the only real line of attack available to the media.
    What we are seeing now is a change in strategy by the SG, test, trace, isolate. Only possible once you have the testing equipment and the infrastructure in place.

  259. Roger says:

    terence callachan says:
    11 May, 2020 at 7:18 pm
    A new Scottish Independence Party could be risky
    It could split the independence vote If people don’t stick rigidly to voting for it only with their second vote

    People can’t vote for a list only party with their first vote because the first vote is for the constituency – and a list only party wouldn’t be standing in the constituencies.

  260. Rev. Stuart Campbell says:

    “I posted this comment on Peter Bell’s website in response to his post that he reposted above”

    Hey, congratulations on getting it approved, it’s more than mine managed.

  261. North chiel says:

    Tories now want their “ domestic servants” ( cleaners) back to clean their “ big hooses” . Obviously not used to having to put on “ the marigolds” themselves . Piers says on GMB his son is a very good cleaner can he come over to do the necessary … but apparently not?

  262. Willie says:

    You make an entirely sound point Breeks.

    The right to a Scottish Parliament Is a matter of sovereignty. It is not a matter of England deciding to grant powers to one of its towns or cities.

    Scotland has an ancient history. It had its own Parliament, it’s own legal system and it joined in a Union rather than agreeing to be subsumed in a Union. The starting point for a sovereign Scottish Parliament is not therefore the 1998 Scotland Act exercised at the discretion or gift of the prime minister.

    Scotland existed before 1998 and i5vis fallacious in the extreme to suggest that this legislation of the Westminster parliament, at the will of the Westminster parliament is the sole and only means of Scotland restoring its sovereignty.

    As to your comments on the list party I agree wholeheartedly that a list party is the complete answer. A list party only works for potentially maximising list seats within a subsidiary parliament the creation of Westminster.

    That said the benefit of having a majority of independence MSPs in one’s subsidiary party is administratively necessary. But it is not the only route to independence. Indeed, as we have seen neither a majority of independence MSPs in Hollyrood nor a majority of independence MPs in Westminster has been able to deliver independence, nor even stop Scotland’s exit from the EU against it’s expressed wishes.

    But that is a reflection of the compliant subsidiary so called independence MSPs and MPs that we have elected in an SNP uncommitted to independence but committed to Westminster subsidiarity.

    A list party thus makes much practical sense in changing this position. The SNP who are now comfortable in their colonial government roles are now under no doubt that the tide is shiftin*bfrom under them. Either they do what they are supposed to our a new Independence Party will leave them high and dry. The colonial governors days are coming to an end and some of them may now be starting to realise it.

    Indeed, even in the virus crisis I think the First Minister is starting to realise this as she dramatically tries to create a different line from the Prime Minister and his government and with whom she marched lockstep into delaying lockdown, cancelling testing and failing to prepare.

    Another selling of the Scottish jerseys one may say but history will show that her lockstep take it on the chin, unfortunate if we lose some loved ones early, was a bad bad mistake, and Sturgeon now knows that, because it like the failures to support independence or stop Brexit are now being exposed.

    But in all of this there are some, indeed many in the SNP and out with who would in a heartbeat move to a party that will pursue independence. But maybe the SNP will change. I hope so. But in the meantime we need to be ready with a list party to get us back on track.

    One thing for sure, in current form the SNP are wholly unsuited to pursuing independence and Scottish Sovereignty or even a simple Scottish interests.

  263. Capella says:

    Kremlin backed RT, formerly Russia Today, reports on WHO critical of countries touting herd immunity.

    ‘Humans are not herds’: WHO thrashes ‘brutal arithmetic’ of herd immunity to beat Covid-19 pandemic

  264. Rick H Johnston says:

    Any new indy party will be judged on the quality of candidates it stands on the list.
    If it was seen to be aggressively anti SNP though it would fail at the first hurdle.
    Some folk need to draw their necks in.
    I can only think of 2 or 3 journo political types I would like to see standing at present, and maybe not in every region.
    Standing against the SNP in the constituencies is a non starter for me, and not just on grounds of cost.
    It would be a political blunder IMO.

  265. Clydebuilt says:

    Peter Bell @ 3.02pm 11th May

    You spoke for me there. Exactly!

    I’ve been thinking this for a while. At this moment with the SNP riding high against a weakened opposition, undermining the SNP vote is a Unionist dream/ REQUIREMENT.

  266. Republicofscotland says:

    Grima Wormtongue (Jackson Carlaw) has popped up again, doing Saurons bidding by prompting Nicola Sturgeon to provide proof why Scotland should diverge from England on easing the lockdown.

    Meanwhile a YouGov poll carried out for Good Morning Britain, which included 565 Scots, found that in the Scots case a majority believed the stay at home message was the right one, and that Johnsons stay alert message was unclear.

    Ian Blackford has called for the people of England to stay away from Scotland, Wales and Northern Ireland.

  267. Republicofscotland says:

    Former Tory MP Patrick Mercer and his wife flout the lockdown rules to visit second home in Skye travelling from Nottinghamshire, the locals are furious with them.

    The usual, they treat Scots with contempt.

  268. Socrates MacSporran says:

    Breeks @ 6.21am

    Can you send me a bottle of whatever you are on at the moment Sir. Because right now, you are like Sir Gary Sobers on yon long-ago day at Swansea: you are hitting it out of the park with every delivery.

    It seems clear to me, there is a cadre, at a high level within the SNP and the ranks of the Scottish Government, who are quite happy to trundle along as now. They realise the Tories are unelectable in Scotland, that the Labour Party is down to the solid old-school rump who will never change. Willie Rennie’s Lib-Dems – you’re having a laugh.

    So, for the foreseeable future, SNP rules – OK. And, they like that comfort blanket. Just be different enough from the Tories in Westminster, and don’t make the basic mistakes of Boris and his out of touch public schoolboys, and, you’ve got a job for life in Edinburgh.

    These careerists and new arrivals seem to have forgotten – the first and most-basic raison d’etre for the SNP is to restore Scottish Independence.

    I will withdraw my supporting vote for the SNP, until it is asked for in a definite Independence referendum or vote. I have serious doubts that a pro-independence List party could garner sufficient votes to get candidates elected.

    However, if someone within the SNP – Joanna Cherry for instance – was to lead a campaign down the constitutional route, with the aim of restoring Scotland’s liberty through international acceptance, then I would be fully on-board. And I am sure I am not the only one who thinks this way,

    It is one of the great paradoxes of these times – opinion polls showing a majority of Scots in favour of Independence are only now shoing a 50/50 split; but, when it cojmes to Scotland being part of the EU, the majority in favour is 62/38.

    There is Nicola Sturgeon’s apparently sacred 60% majority – why is she not using this to go down the constitutional route and restoring our liberty?

    If nobody acts before 31 December, 2020 – that ship will have sailed – time to get us on-board.

  269. Dog biscuit says:

    Peter A Bell. What is Nicola Sturgeons plan for Independence?

  270. katherine hamilton says:

    Hi Republicofscotland,
    The locals should call the cops. It’s illegal. Simples.

  271. Graeme says:

    Clydebuilt says:
    12 May, 2020 at 9:34 am

    Peter Bell @ 3.02pm 11th May

    You spoke for me there. Exactly!

    I’ve been thinking this for a while. At this moment with the SNP riding high against a weakened opposition, undermining the SNP vote is a Unionist dream/ REQUIREMENT.

    What good is the SNP riding high if they’re not doing what they say on the tin, in fact it could be argued the higher they ride the less inclined they are to fight for independence, this new list party may or may not be the answer but it might just give the SNP pause for thought

  272. Dog biscuit says:

    Clydbuilt,voting for list Independists is no threat to SNP.What is all this Hegemonic shit fromSturgeon and why is Peter A Bell teluctsnt to answer a simple question what plan(s) does Nicola Sturgeon have for an Independent Scotland? Does the grand strategist have an answer?

  273. Dog biscuit says:

    Ian Blackford snowdrops his suits from Tory clothes lines.Fact!!!!

  274. Effijy says:

    Dear Mr Carlaw,

    In answer to your question regarding Scotland not following Boris’ advice.

    1, Scots have never voted for a Tory majority in 70 years as we cannot support fascists.

    2. Your Party ignored Cygnus at our peril.

    3. You lied about being prepared for the virus.

    4. You lied about PPE stockpiles.

    5. You lied about delivery of PPE Kit.

    6. You risked lives by not accepting EU support.

    7. You lied about Civid death rates in England.

    8. Boris is a pathological liar, adulterer and abuser.

    9. You tried to close down parliament and democracy.

    10. You insult or ignore Scotland’s representative majority at every turn.

    11. You are a failed car salesman with zero political skills.

    12. Your party is incompetent, devoid of transparency and immoral.

    Could you get by with these meantime as I need to go back into Alert Mode now?

  275. defo says:

    13. Socialization of private debt, and called it ‘austerity’.
    14. Cambridge analytica.
    15. Rape clause.

    Any takers to follow on?
    There must be at least 50.

  276. defo says:

    13. Socialization of private debt, and called it ‘austerity’.
    14. Cambridge analytica.
    15. R@pe clause.

    Any takers to follow on?
    There must be at least 50

  277. John Barr says:

    Let’s face it, the biggest open secret in Scottish politics is that we have a gay First Minister, and she has a gay husband. It’s a sham marriage. This is the reason why they are so obsessed with sexual minority rights, and have allowed the Twitter children’s crusade to run riot. They are advancing their own sexual (tiny) minority agenda versus what the country wants and needs. Pure self-serving narcissists, and they tried to destroy Alex Salmond to stop him coming back into power. They are a total disgrace, and should be removed from power.

    I know what I just wrote sounds mental, but, sadly, I truly believe it. I have voted SNP before, but never will again. I’m a working class Scottish man, and hated as such by the misandrists in the party. They can go to Hell for all I care. And I am not going to vote for a self-aggrandising white middle class American as the head of a party. Reeks of the final nail in the coffin cultural colonisation of Scotland by America to me. I wouldn’t have the gall to move to another country then start to play with their politics. Talk about preening ambition! America has done enough damage to this island already.

  278. MaggieC says:

    Effijy and Defo

    16 . Standing in the Scottish Parliament as a member and Msp of an English Party . There’s no Scottish Tory party registered with the Electoral Commission .

  279. Karmanaut says:

    These people are a disgrace. I’d been aware of this new party, but been too busy to really check it out, so I hadn’t realised the level of abuse hurled at this young woman from these bigots.

  280. Ron Maclean says:

    Dear Aunt Nicola

    I am obsessed with independence but have had to accept that I will never see it. This has made me angry. Some of my friends in Wings Over Scotland are unhappy too and quite often fight among themselves and with other bloggers. This makes me sad.

    I think things would get better if you allowed the football to start again.

    Yours for the time being

    PS Any chance of doing anything to help us get independence?

  281. Patrick Roden says:

    @twathater, good post mate.

    Re: new independence list party.

    Do you believe a ‘woman’ is an adult female?

    Give the ISP your second vote, so that they can stand up for women’s rights.

    Do you believe men with beards are women and if you say otherwise you should be prosecuted?

    Give the SNP your second vote.

  282. The UK news is already condemning the FM for not activating the lockdown sooner – in other words making her responsible for causing nearly 2,000 unnecessary deaths.

    If the National were to print such an article about the PM can you imagine the uproar? Undermining the best attempts of the PM at a time of crisis and him only just recovered from a near-death experience. Shame on you, you petty newspaper trying to score political points. Shame.

    Does anybody on here think that they will apply the same level of scrutiny of the PM and Westminster’s decision on the timing of the southern lockdown – I wonder what total of unnecessary deaths would hang around the neck of Boris Johnson ….4/5 of 30,000 say = 26,000 unnecessary deaths?

    That would be a striking headline….. but not one we are likely to see, oh, and while we’re at it, there are ‘four nations’ in this UK – why do we only hear about England and Scotland when Wales and N.Ireland are roughly in lockstep with Scotland.

    Seems it is only Nicola who is determined to contradict Boris for some imaginary reason – they’ll try anything to get a headline and attract attention. So bad.

  283. Bob W says:

    One of the reasons I read your blog is that you allow a range of voices, including those who diverge from your own views, that to me is part of healthy discussion.
    If Peter A. Bell does not allow you to post on his blog and he posts here, without being moderated, that says more about him and his attitude to open and honest discussion.
    It would seem that Peter A. Bell is not a fan of open discussion or he would allow his readers to see and comment on your posts. (I make the assumption your post was not derogatory) (smiley face thing)

  284. Capella says:

    @ Republicofscotland 9:49 am
    Former Tory MP Patrick Mercer and his wife flout the lockdown rules to visit second home in Skye travelling from Nottinghamshire, the locals are furious with them.

    The care home in Skye also broke lockdown rules by bringing staff in from the south of England.

  285. Stuart MacKay says:

    Peter Bell made the interesting observation, that any list MSPs are likely to be considered a clear and present danger by the SNP. This is the best argument I’ve seen so far against a new party.

    So we appear to have acquired ourselves a One Party State.

    In that case, one way I can see a list party being effective is to, in turn, pose a clear and present danger to the SNP. That going to mean, sooner or later, contesting constituency seats. Which is the very thing that everybody wants to avoid.

    As always, any observations or insights on this are welcome.

  286. Capella says:

    HC-One, Britain’s largest care home chain and the operator of Home Farm, faces allegations that it paid insufficient heed to the government’s lockdown by parachuting workers in from as far away as Kent, 645 miles away, to plug staff shortages in a sector where pay is notoriously poor.

    Home Farm is one of the worst-hit care homes in the country, with 30 residents and 27 staff testing positive for the virus. It means that an island with 3%…
    (behind the paywall)

    Sir David Behan also revealed that 10 people died in an outbreak at another Scottish care home run by his firm.
    They were all residents at Mugdock House in Bearsden, East Dunbartonshire.
    Sir David, HC One’s executive chairman, said nine patients were now self-isolating at the care home and three had recovered…

    Sir David, a former chief executive of the Care Quality Commission in England…

  287. jfngw says:

    Deaths in England and Wales between week 11 (w/e 13th Mar) and week 18 (w/e 1st May) now 46,380 above the 5 year average total for these weeks.

  288. Colin Alexander says:

    Dog biscuit

    To give credit to Peter A Bell, he correctly identifies and criticises Nicola for repeatedly wasting indyref mandates by her hoping the UK will grant a s30 Order and cooperate when it’s clear they won’t, no matter how many times they are asked.

    He even points out each refusal makes another refusal even more likely. Well done Peter!

    Unfortunately, just like Nicola begging / nagging the UK for a s30 will never work, Peter nagging the SNP to change will never work. The SNP just ignore, slag or try to censor their pro-indy critics.

    Here I’m NOT talking about Peter, just generally:

    Many people have struggled to accept the SNP are no longer trying to get independence for Scotland.

    That’s an emotional process involving dealing with feelings of betrayal, grief, anger etc.

    People can only deal with stuff like that in their own time or if they can’t cope with it, they avoid dealing with it and get angry and defensive if pressed about it.

  289. jfngw says:

    Whilst twitter is alive with stories about the Skye care home, the BBC runs a story to cover the arse of the owner on its Scotland page.

  290. Willie says:

    Meg Merrillees @11.35

    It is a simple inescapable fact that an academic research is stating that the delay in implementing lock down in Scotland cost 2,000 lives.

    Granted the delay in implementing lock down in England cost many many more lives too – maybe 20,000.

    But let us not quibble about the numbers. Simple fact is that Nicola Sturgeon in lock step with Boris Johnson, and against international advice delayed lockdown, did not test and failed to secure adequate PPE.

    This is no Mickey Mouse story. It is a damning fact about First Minister Sturgeon and her useless compliant government. Hand in fucking hand she kept lockstep to the Johnson – Cummings policy and no amount of denial can erase this fact. Like going soft on independence and Brexit, First Minister Sturgeon fucked up – and big style.

    But of course she knows that. Knows that she has blood on her hands. Knows that the full page adverts in middle February saying that the NHS and the government were well prepared for the virus was a lie, a down right lie. And she will pay for this.

    And for any SNP supporter to say that there should be no criticism, no censure of the SNP for condemning maybe 2,000 people to their grave, then I say to them it is time that they and their party were gone – and gone they will be.

    As a member for more years than I care to remember I have lost all faith in the SNP. They are poison in our midst and unless they change, which they are reluctant to do, then I like many many others will be putting our efforts elsewhere.

    In the meantime, whilst Sturgeon is now belatedly trying to say that she is now on a different path from Johnson, maybe she would like to confirm why she delayed lockdown, why she cancelled trace and test, why we were unprepared, did not have enough PPE.

  291. McDuff says:

    I wonder what the SNP membership now stands at.

  292. Colin Alexander says:

    For those arguing about split votes etc.

    The Imperials have already laid out their case: They will ignore a pro-indy majority of MSPs or MPs.

    They have insisted it’s total pro-indy votes that count.

    Even if Scotland has a majority of votes for pro-indy candidates AND a majority of pro-indy MSPs and MPs,

    then that won’t be enough either: we’ll be told people didn’t vote for them because they are pro-indy but because they liked the person or their economic / social policies etc. Or some other reasons.

    Put simply: Scotland will NEVER achieve a valid mandate for independence in the eyes of the Empire.

    Scotland cannot achieve independence via British democracy.

    British democracy is for electing politicians to serve the Union, not end the Union.

    Nicola and the SNP worked that out years ago, as did Labour before them.

  293. Grouse Beater says:

    “Unfortunately, just like Nicola begging / nagging the UK for a s30 will never work, Peter nagging the SNP to change will never work. The SNP just ignore, slag or try to censor their pro-indy critics.” Colin Alexander

    On the button. Peter Bell dropped his SNP membership because he knows the SNP won’t deliver, goes as far as to say Nicola is a crap leader for indy, that the SNP don’t even try to educate the electorate, they have no strategy, (selfies won’t do it!) and they avoid conflict over Westminster’s anti-people policies. In other words, the SNP hope good governance will do the trick. This attitude takes no account of probable events that upset their passive plan. Up pops Peter to tell us a small List only party supporting the SNP will do no good and a lot of damage. I stand back to get a better look at them and realise I didn’t vote for timidity and inertia. And I didn’t think we had to have only one party devoted to self-governance that can’t deliver as much as a reply to my letters.

  294. Sarah says:

    Does anyone know the same as Donda at 3.38 on 11th May i.e. that “..very senior people in the SNP have floated the idea of an independent list party. Best ignore Pete Wishart”?

    It almost sounds too good to be true but, if not, it is hugely encouraging – if they have acted on it, that is.

  295. jfngw says:


    It’s a great idea but where exactly would they have taken the money from to finance a furlough scheme, even just closing schools results in having to compensate the parents.

    Where was the money to come from to compensate companies.

    Would they have been sued by events organisers for compensation for taking action on non devolved matters.

    The Scotgov can’t borrow or print money, those that wanted an earlier lockdown have to accept the fact they were going to see Scottish companies go to the wall and many with no income.

    It was in my opinion not feasible to lockdown until Westminster did, don’t blame the Scotgov but those that chose to remain under WM control in 2014.

  296. Bob Mack says:

    @Grouse Beater,

    Totally agree with you. We support the party of Sisyphus, forever doomed to get our hopes to the peak of the mountain only to watch them fall again, It becomes wearisome.

  297. Kat says:

    My votes in 2021 are drifting further and further away from the Party.

    I expect to receive a visit at the door, during the campaign, by Party faithful telling me that Nicola has a plan and I shouldn’t worry my pretty little pink brain about anything at all.

  298. MaggieC says:

    Jfngw at 12.14 pm

    Here’s the bbc page archived

  299. jfngw says:

    @Bob Mack

    As you mentioned Sisyphus it reminded me of this.

  300. Ottomanboi says:

    As a so called ‘millennial’ from a ethnic background no stranger to incidents of horrible death I have come to resent my future being screwed up by oldies scared of catching a viral infection, particularly when the case for the initial panic over infection is becoming flimsier by the day.
    Global government has cocked things up. It will back out of this ‘crisis’ by stealth but will never admit to have cocked up big time.
    The same crew will then expect you to have faith and trust when they next come huckstering for your vote.
    In that particular I have developed herd immunity.

  301. jfngw says:

    Final the so called BBC programme ‘in depth’ programme went in dept into starting the lockdown earlier but missed out the most vital part, financing of it.

    It was not a in depth programme without including this primary issue, it was a biased report used to attack the SNP. Strangely not buried within minutes as the Panorama programme about the UK gov was, they are still bringing up on the headlines today.

  302. Golfnut says:

    You can expect this by e-mail or through your door.

    And, social media accounts run by the Scotland Office have removed the ‘Stay at Home’ logo. Ffs.

    Full on attacks on the SG in general and Nicola in particular over lockdown. Which is funny, her being an agent provocateur for the UK gov.

  303. Col.Blimp IV says:

    Willie @12.45

    If you can point us to evidence of you, or anyone else demanding
    LOCKDOWN 2-3 weeks prior to the PM announcing it or can explain how the Scottish Government could have ORDERED it.

    Without having control of the financial levers to help mitigate the attendant hardship and without bringing down a crescendo of SNP BADDER THAN BAD and MADDER THAN MAD from every organ of the print, broadcast and social media in the UK.

    You are entitled to voice that opinion – Otherwise STFU.

  304. Liz g says:

    Peter A Bell seems to concentrate only on the effect the new list path may have on the SNP.
    What we all should remember is the effect a successful list party would have on the British Parties….
    Which is the whole point…..
    The Tory,Labour and Lib Dem list seats are the real target here….Annie Wels , Murdo Fraser “whits their names” Labour and the other lot, all getting into our parliament on the List, some for bloody Decades….

    What it also does when we hold and win a Yes
    It puts people from the Yes movement in the room when the negotiations are happening..
    Remember the Smith Commission ????

    We need to be as sure as we can be which country’s interests the MSPs are negotiating for!
    It’s in Britain’s interest to make a terrible deal for all sorts of reasons..
    Do we really want the SNP outnumbered by people who demonstrate support for the Union AGAIN!
    For all these reasons and more we,in the Yes Movement needed another party to represent us….well…here it is!

  305. Sharny Dubs says:

    I’m awaiting the formation of an alternate Indy party before I resign from the SNP.

    Membership card, scissors, addressed envelope all ready.

    Meanwhile my hand stays firmly in ma pooch.

    Of course there is always the possibility that the SNP could turn around, but the seismic upheaval would have to be tectonic in its scope.

  306. Golfnut says:

    Prof Robertson does an article bbc attack on the Scottish Government. Just the usual, lies of , misrepresentation and malice.

    Also, remember the UK gov refusing to close airports, apparently that’s Nicola’s fault too.

  307. Joe says:

    Future conversation:

    ‘Mum, what did you do when people were standing up to the fascist combination of global companies, corrupt governments and international institutions colluding to twist science in order to sell hormone blockers and dangerous vaccines?’

    “Well, sweetheart, I was busy trying to say the right things to make sure people didn’t think I was a tinfoil hat conspiracy theorist”

  308. Golfnut says:

    @ Liz g.

    Spot on as usual Liz, when Rev Stu first brought a Wings party forward as a means of holding the SNP’s feet to the Fire if indyref hadn’t been called for 2020, I as did others suggested it would be good to have a list party indyref or not. Mainly for the reasons you put in your comment, and these reasons are even more pertinent now.

  309. Joe says:


    ‘More recently, though, there’s been something of a vaccine renaissance. That’s partly because the industry is now facing serious challenges to its core prescription drug business. Some $135 billion in prescription drug sales will lose patent protection in the next five years, and there’s little in drug companies’ pipelines to replace those sales.’

    ‘With the $780 billion global prescription drug market growing at a sluggish 5 percent a year, many analysts reckon that the vaccine industry, which is forecast to climb 13 percent annually through 2012, offers the most upside potential. “More companies are investing in vaccines as a way of diversifying away from prescription drugs, and new technologies such as cell culture are enabling them to produce more sophisticated vaccines,” says Michael Boyd, acting director general of the International Federation of Pharmaceutical Manufacturers & Associations (IFPMA)’

  310. Bob Mack says:

    Nicola Sturgeon could NOT order a lockdown. There were still thousands of travellers coming into airports boats in Scotland from everywhere and she has zero authority over immigration. I’d who can and cannot enter any part of the UK.

    The disclosure programme makes that assumption.

  311. Golfnut says:

    Boris Johnson is no longer PM of the UK.

    An article by Sean O’Grady in the Independent.

  312. CameronB Brodie says:

    If you understood public health, it would improve your capacity to protect your biological integrity, and that of those around you. It isn’t possible to secure human rights and economic justice, without securing public health.

    The International Journal of Human Rights
    Volume 19, 2015 – Issue 4: National Security and Public Health: Human Rights in conflict

    Human rights and public health: towards a balanced relationship

    In international law there are many references to the protection of public health contrasting with other interests, including the interests of trade, commerce, intellectual property protection, transportation and warfare. Potentially, in such contexts, the ‘right to health’ as an economic and social right can be used as an additional collective claim to advance the health of the public, thus counterbalancing such interests as international and domestic trade and the conduct of warfare.

    While this approach has potential, it should be born in mind that public health measures potentially infringe on the civil and political rights of individuals, including their rights to privacy and freedom of movement. We are thus dealing with a complex relationship between public health, human rights and international law that is still ill-understood. An integrated approach to human rights, taking into account both civil and political and economic, social and cultural rights, seems the most balanced response to public health concerns.

    public health, global health, health security, human rights, right to health, international trade, tobacco control, civil and political rights, the right to privacy and family life, the right to physical integrity, limitation clauses, derogation clauses

  313. Col.Blimp IV says:

    Joe @1.22

    Was that from the Parable of the Conformist, one of Jesus’ wee stories that didn’t make the final edit of the King James Bible ?

  314. Joe says:

    @Col.Blimp IV

    Lol. I wouldn’t know. I saw something similar a while ago on a different subject and enjoyed it.

  315. Joe says:

    Sorry, 1 more link. But there are original sources linked in it.

    In other news shows that Bill Gates (Pharma industry chief vaccine rep.) tried to bribe Nigerian Government with 10m dollars to bring a bill forward to mandate vaccinations.

    Could something similar happen with COVID-19 on a larger scale?

    Could this be similar to why certain governments, such as Scotland’s, are so keen to be in complete denial of basic reality that just so happens to profit the same industry (hormone therapy) mentioned above?

  316. Willie says:

    Bob Mack @1.35pm.

    Your comments very much come across as an excuse for Nicola Sturgeon not ordering a lock down, and one has to say if she couldn’t do it then, then she cannot do it now.

    So what is all this talk now. Smoke and mirrors to spin the gullible electorate. Very much seems so.

    Moreover, did Nicola Sturgeon not have a tongue in her head when she was lock-stepping with the Prime Minister. Did she or her ministers have no say over the NHS on whether it testeted or didn’t, whether it bought mask and gowns or didn’t.

    And what of those adverts in the press and on the radio in mid March publicly proclaiming that the government and the NHS were well prepared for the virus.

    Think about these things and it is not difficult to see how Nicola Sturgeon has been found out as Westminster’s poodle. And then think about exactly why Nicola and her team are sitting on a powder keg that’s ready to implode under them.

    She sold out on independence, sold out on Brexit and sold out on the virus and now like her master in Westminster she has blood on her hands. An avoidable 2,000 deaths in a scotland, or 26,000 UK wide, and she thinks no one will notice.

    Time for a new party. Time for a clear out. So I’m sorry Bob, but I just don’t t agree with your excuse for our FM. And neither do many others.

  317. Bob Mack says:

    @ Willie,

    No excuse Willie just fact.

    You also seem to forget that The EU Exit Bill gave Westminster direct control over anything they wished, whether it be devolved or not. If Westminster sets the agenda, legally Scotland has to follow.

    Moan all you like, but what is evident is that Scotland has no absolute control over how we can deal with episodes like this when UK interests and strategies are at stake

  318. Peter A Bell says:

    Stuart MacKay says:
    12 May, 2020 at 11:52 am
    Peter Bell made the interesting observation

    No, he didn’t.

  319. Peter A Bell says:

    Bob Mack says:
    11 May, 2020 at 3:40 pm
    @Peter Bell,

    Your position is…

    Don’t tell be what my position is. Ask me. Like a grown-up would do.

  320. Peter A Bell says:

    Who the fuck is Andy Ellis? Has anybody actually read to the end of one of this clown’s demented rants?

  321. Bob Mack says:

    @Peter Bell,

    I don’t think your current postings indicate a ” Grown Up” position. More “self important”.

  322. CameronB Brodie says:

    The Scottish government might be part of British constitutionalism, but the SNP isn’t. So I think they really need to adopt a new approach towards international law, in order to protect Scotland’s EU membership from the cultural demands of English Torydum.

    Protect human rights and public health in fighting COVID-19
    Government measures to combat COVID-19 have profound implications for everybody’s fundamental rights, including the right to life and to health, as mapped by a new Fundamental Rights Agency (FRA) report. Government responses to stop the virus particularly affect the rights of already vulnerable or at-risk people, such as the elderly, children, people with disabilities, Roma or refugees. Respecting human rights and protecting public health is in everyone’s best interest – they have to go hand-in-hand.

    Equality, non-discrimination and racism, Data protection, privacy and new technologies

  323. The Buchan Loony says:

    Willie @12.24pm If you are going to criticise the Scottish Government(and they do need it at times) then make sure you get your facts right. The devolved governments did not have the powers to impose a lockdown until 25th March with the royal assent of the Coronavirus Act 2020.

  324. Andy Ellis says:

    @ Peter A Bell 2.20PM

    I’m just some guy on the internet like you Peter, one of the Daily Heil’s “Cybernat 7” and former SNP member, but with less recourse to swear words in lieu of an argument than you. Since you patently don’t have the courage to allow critical comments on your own blog, I’ll post my response to you latest constipated epistle “A Response” below and let others decide who is more worth listening to:

    “More tendentious repetition from the sage of Perth. Apart from the inability to express yourself in less than a paragraph when a few words would do, your latest piece adds nothing new. Like a dog returning to its own vomit, you simply can’t help yourself can you?

    You continue to insist that the SNP is the only solution, yet provide no explanation of how it can be rendered fit for purpose. You propose that the Yes movement, SNP members and voters must somehow magically change the SNP supertankers course: but how?

    What success have party members had in tackling the woke Stasi Peter? How many branches, still less individuals, have managed to get any response to complaints? If the treatment of Michelle Thomson, Grouse Beater, Neal Hanvey and others wasn’t bad enough, how about the attacks on Joan McAlpine and Joanne Cherry?

    You complain about the SNP, then insist that it’s the only game in town. In your through the looking glass world, anyone who wants an alternative is beyond the pale. It’s the literary equivalent of pulling the wings off a butterfly then criticising it because it can’t fly. Good grief man, get a grip….or at least an editor eh?”

  325. Capella says:

    @ Peter Bell – I asked you (like a grown up) what your objection to a new list party is e.g. is it the arithmetic? But you haven’t answered.

  326. CameronB Brodie says:

    Of course, the SNP will have to adopt a new approach towards public law, if they want to protect Scotland’s public health. Not forgetting the Scottish justice system, along with the legal and social rights of women.


  327. CameronB Brodie says:

    This is the legal protect Scotland will loose by allowing the Tories to drag us out of the EU, and by allowing the SNP to destroy the potential for justice in Scotland.

    Convention for the protection of Human Rights and Dignity of the Human Being with regard to the Application of Biology and Medicine: Convention on Human Rights and Biomedicine

  328. Andy Ellis says:

    @Capella 3.14pm

    It’s because the Perthshire Bloviator has no coherent answer. Anyone with the stomach to read his prose (which has always struck me as the indy equivalent of Effie Deans) will generally be none the wiser if they’ve managed to stay awake.

    His latest zinger appears to revolve around the Yes movement somehow parasitising the SNP and wafting us to the sunny uplands of indy. This will magically take place by force of our collective efforts and somehow de-toxifying the brand of the woko Haram narcissism, gradualism and failure to progress #indyref2. Just don’t ask him to explain how, or why the current members like him haven’t managed to make one iota of progress in “reclaiming” the SNP.

    Like so many in the party, including many he routinely reviles and swears at, he exhibits the crushing combination of absolute certainty and total error.

  329. Willie @ 12.24

    You misunderstand my point – maybe I wasn’t very clear.

    I have not said whether I think Nicola sturgeon is or is not guilty of causing 2,000 deaths I’m pointing out that no-one is commenting on the excessive number of deaths that will have happened in England, attributable to Boris Johnson’s failure to create a lockdown and, further more, allow Cheltenham Races to go ahead which alone is credited with causing 250,000 cases of infection.

    The press is consistenly inconsistent. And again, I have commented on previous threads, If the FM had tried to do something that WM hadn’t sanctioned, she was accused of trying to score political points and show up the PM. There was talk of removing her from the cobra meetings so she couldn’t try and upstage Boris.

    Any death from this virus is a tragedy and if Covid19 comes again i’m sure we will do things differently but if we must criticise anyone then let’s criticise everyone who deserves it not just one person.

  330. Grouse Beater says:

    “I asked you (like a grown up) what your objection to a new list party is e.g. is it the arithmetic? But you haven’t answered.” Capella

    I asked him what he recommends we do – as outsiders – to, as he exhorts, “Put pressure on the SNP” to alter its ways. No answer.

    I would think a small band of women organising themselves into a List party to secure a few keys seats, (not protesting solely on Twitter), and being for the SNP, for indy, but not indy 2050, and not for every aspect of the GRA-Trans mess, was exactly what he’s looking for – a pressure group that might get inside the parliament.

  331. Adrian B says:


    You do realise that regardless of age at death of covid-19 victims, that children are still thought to be great at carrying and spreading covid-19 to others.

    Regardless of the stats for those under 45 years of age, you can still easily infect dozens of others without having apparent symptoms.

    The prime Minister stated in a press conference yesterday that Covid-19 carriers should wear a mask in public. In Scotland you must self isolate.

    I would rather that people stayed at home as much as possible to prevent infection spreading.

    The original cases in the Borders came from those that attended the cheltenham festival. They brought the virus home and it spread. This was an event that was widely critisised for going ahead, but Boris as head of HM Government wanted it to go ahead.

  332. Scozzie says:

    Who knows if a list party can be a success at HR 2021? But bloody hell is it not worth a try? Coz we all know the arithmetic otherwise – much of a similar number of seats as currently – and that is getting us no where. SNP happy in their minority government slumber.

    I’m really starting to wonder about some of our independence bloggers – recently Wee Ginger Dug is saying we need to give the SNP one more mandate in 2021. Peter A Bell is his latest ‘A Response’ article is using language such as ‘list party fantasy’, ‘magic solution’, ‘wary of evangelical fevour’ and such like.

    I think it’s important to remember that a lot of independence supporters have lent the SNP their votes. So let’s not take them for granted. Let’s not assume they will keep voting for turkeys at Christmas. There’s going to come a point – no action / no votes!

    I get that Peter A Bell and others are life-long SNP supporters. But not all of us are. And Scottish voters have been had for many decades of unfulfilled promises (ps am not a Labour voter in case you think…).

    But my point is – the SNP have shown no gumption to take forward independence in the last 6 years – nada, nothing! Why not take a chance? I’m very much of the opinion: do nothing, then nothing changes, do something and something might change. It’s time to change our voting strategy.

    Ps; This new list party set up by Collete Walker is not my preference. But at least it’s setting the cat amongst the pigeons and the SNP’s reaction, I feel is very telling.

    I’d much rather a party led by Alex Salmond, Craig Murray and the media arm by Stu as well as roles for Lesley Riddoch and Tommy Sherridan. Time to get onto setting up a list party with these heavyweights.

  333. callmedave says:

    BBC Web sites report: (after a long weekend bank holiday period)

    N. Ireland……….09……..Total…….447….BBC
    UK………….today……624 BBC…..Total..*>32415..*SUN

  334. Liz g says:

    Grouse Beater @ 3.56
    While I totally agree with what you said ( this is exactly what is needed )
    Can I just clarify for everyone….
    While it was a small group of women who decided to act!
    This is NOT a Women’s party there are least Two men who have been,and are,involved in taking things forward 🙂

    It’s Independence ( not necessarily with a section 30 )
    Women’s rights protection
    Disability rights protection
    That are the 3 main drivers of the Party.
    And taking the List seats from unionist MSPs the route they want to take to achieve this….

  335. gus1940 says:

    Re WM am I the only one who is missing little Bercow in the Chair.
    His replacement Hoyle is dull and uninteresting.

  336. Grouse Beater says:

    <b."Can I clarify for everyone…. Liz

    Thanks, Liz. I didn’t want to enumerate detail in case I got the mission statement wrong. Rushing to judgement before knowing the facts and then not asking questions – preferably of the IPS in the first instance – is an odd way of getting informed. Onward!

  337. Liz g says:

    Scozzie @ 4.06
    It would have been great if the “Heavyweights” ( as you put it) had set up a party . .but they didn’t.
    And a well kent isn’t face is no without its own problems either.
    I’d love nothing more than Stuart Campbell in the room when the negotiations are taking place.
    But he and the other’s have to make their own minds up,because there will be a cost.
    As far as I understand it….should others come forward conversations can be had….that might no be good enough for some….but right here right now…it’s all we’ve got and we’d be well advised to make good use of it…..
    Which brings me to
    I have no real way of knowing Breeks, but, I’d take bets SIP doesn’t have anyone with a special interest in the constitutional arrangements,other than the obvious basics.

    Why don’t you join, get in on the ground and promote/guide/steer the ethos and direction of how to approach the subject… in other words help them with it?
    If it doesn’t help Scotland…it certainly won’t hurt her!
    What say you Breeks? 🙂

  338. jfngw says:

    The response to this new party will be weighed up by the MSM, they will need to decide whether it hurts the SNP or the London parties. Their exposure will depend on how they see this.

    I’m not sure what the PPB rules exactly are, as they have no votes do they receive any PPB space, if not getting the exposure outside the twitter/internet bubble may be difficult. What they really need is a high profile figure to get the media attention, no insult to those involved intended but sadly that’s how these things play out.

  339. Liz g says:

    Jfngw @ 4.49
    I think they’d be open to that as well jfngw…

  340. Grouse Beater says:

    “Am I the only one who is missing Bercow in the Chair.
    His replacement Hoyle is dull and uninteresting.”

    This might be of interest:

  341. twathater says:

    Ian B ,Liz g , TJenny and any others involved in the Friends Of Wings twatter page , can I ask if it would be possible to ask on the FOW page how many people recd thanks from twatter for their complaints against Stuart and ask them to screenshot these thanks pages , I have read on twatter and elsewhere that people were being thanked by twatter for their complaints but had most definitely not complained about Stu

    Someone did this when wishy wishart was blocking everyone and it showed how many people were affected by his stupidity

    If enough people responded with screenshots that didn’t complain it would be proof to twatter that their systems had been hacked and they could launch an investigation to get the ISP’S that sent the complaints and we suspect that might light up the usual sickos

    I would do it myself but I’m not a twat (ter ) and the FOW now has a big following , just a thought

  342. robbo says:

    I think we know how these curves will go in 2-3 weeks time !

  343. Xaracen says:

    “It is unsustainable for the Tories, eg Boris, to continually refuse a Section 30 order.”

    Question: what exactly is the nature of this unsustainability? In exactly what way does this nature amount to any form of pressure on Boris to accede to a Section 30, that he can’t just ignore?

  344. robbo says:

    Basically it says

    We’re pleased to announce that Lady Poole found in our favour on motions this afternoon. The case will proceed. Both the Scottish and UK Governments will have until 20th May to lodge their basic submissions with an 8 week adjustment period thereafter before calling in court.

  345. robertknight says:

    Not sure what S30 process is being pursued…

    For sake of argument, let us pretend that a court instructs the UK Govt. to introduce legislation at WM to allow an Order in Council under Section 30 of the Scotland Act.

    The UK Govt. brings forward a Bill at WM, thereby complying with the instructions of the court.

    The UK Govt. allows a free vote by backbenchers on the Bill, which it is entitled to do.

    The Bill does not pass on its First Reading due to a huge majority of Unionist MPs from all parties voting it down.

    The UK Govt. has complied with the court, but as the courts cannot instruct Parliament, the Bill falls.

    Would someone who is more well versed in this process than I please tell me that the SNP/Scottish Govt./NS isn’t Royally f’d under such a scenario – and so too Scotland?

  346. Ian Brotherhood says:

    @Training Day (11.23) –

    Just caught up, saw your comment there.

    Cheers amuch!

    Good to know you’re still about.


  347. Ian Brotherhood says:

    @twathater (6.01) –

    Interesting suggestion – duly noted sah, with thanks!


  348. Liz g says:

    Twathater @ 6.01
    I think “Himself” is on it 🙂

  349. twathater says:

    @ Liz G and Ian B nae bother , as I say above I noticed that someone had done it successfully when wishy Wishart was blocking everyone , if there are enough responses and screenshots surely twatter would investigate . We all know that Stu can be (ahem)a wee bit abrasive SOMETIMES but for the likes of Leeze to openly say that ” we managed to get him blocked ” indicates that there is something ROTTEN going on wi these barstewards and it needs to be exposed

  350. Liz g says:

    Twathater @ 9.21
    Well ….. I don’t know how much of the folling is true..but.
    Apparently when the same thing happened in Canada to people who spoke out against Canada’s version of the GRA!
    Their nutter in chief, “something Yanive”, claimed to know personally “Twitter Support” was staffed with Trans sympathisers,and the company’s ethos is to nudge public opinion away from Trans critics…
    So make of that whit ye will Twathater, am jist sayin 🙂

  351. Capella says:

    @ Andy Ellis @ Grouse beater – coming back late to this thread – I think we can safely ignore any further comment from Peter Bell. He apoears to thrive on empty invective. If he had a valid point to make, this was his opportunity.

    Oh well. 🙂

  352. Grouse Beater says:

    “Think we can safely ignore further comment from Peter Bell.” Capella

    Hard to ignore an man with a megaphone literary style, but in this instance, yes, I agree, and for reasons of personal safety. ?

  353. Stoker says:

    robbo wrote on 12 May, 2020 at 7:25 pm:

    “Seen this folks?

    Thanks, Robbo, first i’ve seen this update.

  354. Golfnut says:

    Since the bbc appear to have it in for the SG over Care Homes, the is a Twitter post by a London Dr comparing English advice to carers and Scottish advice

  355. Joe says:

    Propaganda from big pharma hasn’t stopped explosion in hydroxychloroquine prescriptions in France – most notably for the more wealthy

  356. Joe says:

    The 3 French Doctors quoted as criticising Didier Raoult in this article are all involved with the company Gilead

  357. Stuart Anderson says:

    This thread demonstrates how difficult it is to debate covid. I work with a nurse who currently works at St John’s in Livi, they are twiddling their thumbs on her ward with only 20% of the normal work load. This is information from this week.

    Overwhelming the NHS with covid patients is not happening. It’s most certainly affecting all of those folks who we’re due operations in a bad way. Even small problems with your health should never be tolerated.

  358. CameronB Brodie says:

    Stuart Anderson
    The geographical spread of covid-19 is not even, some parts of Brexitania are affected more than others. London is a particular epicenter. So if BoJo goes full Tory, hospitals in Livi could get rather busy, rather quickly. This threat to public health and well-being will hang around much longer than necessary, if policy measures are not coherent with global health regulations and global health law.

    The problem Brexitania faces, is the Tories are ideologically opposed to the precautionary principle and public health ethics. So their policies are unlikely to respect global health law. Scotland must do better.

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