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Don’t spend it all at once

Posted on November 26, 2016 by

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    1. 26 11 16 07:56

      Don’t spend it all at once | speymouth

    394 to “Don’t spend it all at once”

    1. bjsalba says:

      I thought infrastructure, railways and transport were supposed to be devolved, so why is Westminster dealing with these councils?.

      And if the disaster of the Edinburgh Edinburgh tram project is anything to go by heaven help Glasgow!

    2. The Isolator says:

      Lol.. Nailed it as per Chris.Westminster deceit leading to Westminster defeat, hopefully.

    3. jimnarlene says:

      Turn and walk away, Hamish; afore its too late.

    4. Macart says:

      Never accept sweeties from strangers.

      Just sayin’.

    5. Robert Louis says:

      Aye, good cartoon. ‘we’re about to utterly destroy your country, but here, have a wee sweetie son.

      Scotland needs out of this corrosive and damaging undemocratic union with England ASAP. It is now rather urgent. Time for independence.

    6. Arthur Martin says:

      Sweeties will be nothing but soor plooms!

    7. David Smith says:

      Aye, “have a sweetie”; we all know where that leads.
      You just know the SLAB councillors will be fa’in over themselves tae sign up tae crippling’ PFI infrastructure deals just to screw up the honest men and women who replace them in May and punish the residents who question the Divine Right of SLAB…

    8. winifred mccartney says:

      Brilliant – just when you think Chris can’t get any better – he keeps doing it. UK – even their bribary sucks and their fear – BMCD back on the scare tactics – they really really don’t care about anyone except themselves and their vested interests. We have to be ready – I know we call it post-truth now – I call it downright lies and its coming from everywhere. Hope the billboards are coming on – keep up the good work and thank you to wings and Chris.

    9. McBoxheid says:

      Brilliant Chris, with a Scottish sugar tax having been discussed, aye they’ll try to take it back in taxes.

      Next up; cute wee puppies, wie extortionate licence fees!

    10. frogesque says:

      Thanks all the same but I’d rather have my own sweetie shop.

    11. heedtracker says:

      They got their country back. Rejoice.

    12. galamcennalath says:

      Brilliant Chris, summed up nicely!

      Aye, Hamish, beware Tories bearing gifts! They are not your friend.

      Can we have Hamish on stamps and banknotes on iScotland?

    13. CameronB Brodie says:

      Charley says “stranger danger”. 😉

    14. Sharny Dubs says:

      Roll on Indy2, an we get shot oh these torn arsed Tories.

    15. T.roz says:

      Exactly, an 800m sweetener, with the real cuts coming right behind it. An absolutely brilliant sketch.

    16. dakk says:

      Classic Chris.

      And our Scots Yoons will tug their forelocks,smile,and say ‘But what about the poor people of England Philip?You keep them for yourselves.’

    17. Dorothy Devine says:

      Brilliant Chris – and definitely stranger danger!

      OT The Herald carries the headline “Honorary degree for Murray” – is it only me that finds that offensive?

      ‘Honorary degree for Judy Murray ‘just too many letters for the Herald journalists is it?

      I dislike this on all levels for both male and female, I find it utterly disrespectful .

    18. Croompenstein says:

      Dinnae take them Hamish they rot your teeth then they’ll charge you 900m for the dentist. Big John Bull saying “Mongo like candy” 🙂

    19. heedtracker says:

      I dislike this on all levels for both male and female, I find it utterly disrespectful”

      Dorothy, if our yoon goon tory media could, they’d blacklist the whole Murray clan. Chris’s frankenstein tory monster is getting bigger day by Farage’s UKOK day.

      Lesley Riddoch in The National,

      “Many prominent Yes campaigners have seen work dry up completely since September 2014 (I certainly have) and doubtless that’s why so many public figures joined the SNP to become MPs and MSPs. Inside the camp there is support and security – but baby, it’s cold outside.”

    20. Struan says:

      Viva la revolution!

    21. Another Union Dividend says:

      O/T Radio Shortbread this morning has zilch coverage of Lord Wolfe’s constitutional submission to Supreme Court which could have significant implications for Brexit timetable and post-Brexit devolved politics.

      What do we expect when current affairs presenter says he has never read The National and Pacific Quay continues to follow BBC London’s sense of priorities except when there is an opportunity to bash the SNP / Scottish Government.

    22. Broch Landers says:

      Beautiful, as always.

      This morning I see another story in it, too:

      Replace John Bull with Trump

      Replace Hammond with Obama

      Replace Lion Rampant with Cuba

    23. Stoker says:

      The creepy London establishment say: Here, have a sweetie.
      Hamish: Nah! Pass! Ur yon swedgers fae the auld Woolies pic-n-mix?

      I think frogesque sums it up perfectly with:
      “Thanks all the same but I’d rather have my own sweetie shop.”

      Have a great and safe weekend folks.

    24. Dorothy Devine says:

      Heedtracker , thanks . I was just beginning to wonder if it’s my age and I am behind the times in manners – that everyone else thinks it OK to address someone like a wee schoolboy in some private school of the past.

    25. mogabee says:

      Never trusted a Tory in the past, so not changing now!

    26. Proud Cybernat says:

      “What’s that really sharp instrument you’re holding?”

      “It’s my Legislative Consent Motion,” Hamish replies.

    27. Socrates MacSporran says:

      Dorothy Devine

      I have not yet seen today’s print edition of The Herald, however, on the website, it does say Judy Murray.

      If Mrs Murray’s surname only is used in the print edition, it does not indicate disrespect. Sub-editors – and as an old sub myself, I have several issues with the standard of subbing on today’s Herald – have to try to “sell” the story in a few words, fitting into a pre-determined block of the page.

      Probably: “Judy Murray gets honorary degree” didn’t fit the space consigned to the heading, whereas, by dropping the “Judy”, the heading fitted.

      Mind you, with Judy and both of her sons all suitable cases for recognition via an honorary degree, making it clear which Murray was being honoured would have been a good idea. But, as I said – I have issues with the standard of subbing in today’s Herald.

    28. Ken500 says:

      Absolutely appalling. Illegally giving the ignorsnt, incompetent Unionist and Green no Party even more public taxpayers money to squander with absolutely no mandate. The Westminster unelected Unionist crooks with no mandate. A total lack of democracy or accountability. To by-pass the elected MP’s /Scottish Gov control on accountability. The unelected Unionists screw up the Scottish economy again. They are despicable. Letting ignorant, incompetent go on a unaccountable, irresponsible spending spree. While the essential services and the vulnerable are starved of funding, causing even more deaths and racking up the debt. Totally irresponsible.

      The £800Million over five years will not even cover the repayments Scotland has to make on the rest of the UK borrowing and spending.

      No wonder Football Clubs are in such a state. Letting peodophiles control the Clubs. No wonder the terraces are empty. Not a family market. A restricted market. Macho culture,

      Congratulation to the National. Best wishes for the future. A notable achievement.

      Lesley Riddoch has a column in the National. Can command fees of over £1000+ expenses for public speaking any day of the week and has made a good living out of the Independence Movement. Commanding an extensive audience. What is the beef about work drying up. Is that credible? Has got some personal problems. One day at a time.

    29. Bob Mack says:

      Brilliant Chris.

      Somebody printed a graphic yesterday which made a tremendous impact on a couple of my pals.

      It was a map of Scotland which had the total infrastructure spend for five years printed on it. £820 million.

      Below was a picture of Parliament with the caption one building £4billion+

      This cartoon is in that vein

    30. Ken500 says:

      What happened to the sugar tax. To save health, time and money. Make people happier. No so much quick fix sugar, comfort eating.

    31. heedtracker says:

      Dorothy Devine

      It is relentless yoon brainwashing but it’s interesting to consider how effective it all is. Must have some effect or they wouldn’t do it. Or the royals wouldn’t be fawned over and groveled to etc.

    32. Brian Doonthetoon says:

      Very good Chris.

      You have a knack of bestowing just the right expression/body language on Hamish. Lang may his lum reek!

    33. manandboy says:

      Brilliant, Chris, you’re drawings work like the focus ring on our collective lens, giving everyone who sees them, a clear, sharp and instant understanding. Awesome.

    34. sassenach says:

      Ken500

      I didn’t ‘read’ Lesley Riddoch, in the National, as a personal complaint about work drying up, but as a general statement that pro-indy journalists have seen a decreasing outlet for their writing.

    35. Robert Peffers says:

      Aye! Have a sweetie on the same day the BBC lead stories read like this :-

      #1 – Fidel Castro dies.
      #2 – Crewe FC knew of Bennell abuse.
      #3 – Request sent for Wisconsin vote recount.
      #4 – UK photographer of wee nude girls, D. Hamilton dies.
      #5 – Blackout hits London on Black Friday.
      #6 – Disabled kids underpaid tax credits.

      Nothing like getting your priorities right

      – and that is nothing like getting your priorities right.

      The actual important bit of the story, though, is only revealed at the very end of the report.

      Which is that the disabled kids tax was underpaid, by an HMRC error, by at very least £3000 and HMRC say they will only repay money owed for 2016-17 but not for earlier years. Then they claim it is the responsibility of the individuals to check they received the right payments.

      All this when the low profile, almost hidden, stories about the English NHS failures are also being played down in the media.

      My impression is that the Westminster final financial collapse is a lot closer that they are ready to admit.

      That big hatchet in the Chris cartoon is bigger, sharper and closer than most of us think it is.

    36. DerekM says:

      lol nice one Chris.

      So apt for what is going on just watch as they turn this insult into ungrateful Scots whingers.

      Hamish should tell him to beat it and take his big dumb stupid brexit goon with him.

    37. Clydebuilt says:

      T-Shirt / Campaign slogan of the Year

      “E X P O S E…..T H E….B I A S”

    38. manandboy says:

      The Hammond ‘budget’ and Treeza May’s ‘Brexit Royal Prerogative’, are clear signs of an ‘Upstairs – Downstairs’ mentality where Scotland is concerned.

      In this Tory Westminster ‘Upstairs’ Government, the idea of ‘Downstairs’ Scotland becoming independent, is abhorrent.

      Scotland will be independent, but with no help from Westminster. Instead, they will place every obstacle they can muster in our path.

      None can match English treachery.

      Sadly, too many in Scotland, from top to bottom, think of Westminster as a friend.

    39. Dan Huil says:

      It’s a wee bag of cyanide pills. Stuff them down Hammonds gob.

    40. Fred says:

      @ Ken500, if Lesley Riddoch gets a few bob for contributing to the National (thank God we have it!) or is paid for public speaking I would think that was none of your business, what she earns or how she spends her time is her business. Her point is that opportunities at BBC Scotland for YES supporting folk to express their views has dried up! and that’s our business!

    41. heedtracker says:

      Socrates MacSporran

      If Mrs Murray’s surname only is used in the print edition, it does not indicate disrespect. Sub-editors – and as an old sub myself, I have several issues with the standard of subbing on today’s Herald – have to try to “sell” the story in a few words, fitting into a pre-determined block of the page.”

      That’s not true in any way whatsoever. How come every photo printed by all UKOK media gimps show Sturgeon in all kinds of bad light, to put it mildly.

      Its the oldest and dirtiest trick in the UKOK hackdom book of tory gimpery.

      The problem with UKOK hackdom is their silly assumption that we’re all just like them. Meanwhile, in their Scotland region of greater England, their sales tank faster than Novak Djokovic’s world ranking, as exact same tory hackdom desperately tries to pretend the Murray Clan are not that Scottish.

      My Morrison’s is a lunatic asylum of union jacks and saltires plastered all over their products and for no actual reason but god bless my Morrison’s, their newsstand is now smaller than a wheelie bin and its getting shunted further and further from their main entrance, behind the bogoffs too, even.

    42. Clapper57 says:

      This depicts exactly how it is. Brilliant Chris.

    43. ronnie anderson says:

      Beware of the Clove wan’s Hamish & be wary of he/she who speaks with the Cloven Hoof ,the many amongst the few.

    44. Scott says:

      Sorry O/T but this is the tories all over.

      Tory MSP Douglas Ross is facing further pressure to explain his refereeing commitments after it emerged he previously indicated he would be unavailable for mid-week fixtures.

      A spokesman for the Scottish Conservative’s said Mr Ross was the victim of an SNP “witchhunt”

      It’s really amazing the hypocricy of the tories after we have had Murdo and his cohorts screaming for Humza to go with the Tank at the forefront.

      Another great one Cris.

    45. Artyhetty says:

      i dunno, the sweaty jocks in their tiny region too lazy to do anything, needing yet more huge hand outs from england, bloody cheek! While you are at it, take their stupid lazy pretendy parliament away, it costs us in rUK far too much! And all while the more important bigger regions in england are struggling. This is not divide and rule, oh no.

      So, in england’s view, Scotland is just another region, can’t stand on her own two feet, told you so!

      Clever, but people are not that daft, they see this mouldy crumb for the bribe that it is. It is though, for the benefit of those south of the border who hate Scotland anyway.

      Great cartoon Chris, very apt, thanks.

    46. Artyhetty says:

      Grr, meant ‘I’ with a capital!

      I know, some folks south if the border love Scotland, don’t they?

    47. liz says:

      Brilliant Chris as always.

      Is it even legal for WM to give money directly to the councils?

      It should be used to pay off the PPI debt

    48. defo says:

      Excellent work Mr Cairns.
      This one vies for favourite with the ‘Kez in big girls shoes’ ‘tune.
      It’s got it all.

    49. galamcennalath says:

      Artificial sweeteners always leave a bitter after taste!

    50. Andrew Coulson says:

      If Marine Le Pen wins and takes France out of the EU, the EU will collapse, and Scotland will no longer have a choice to make between the UK and the EU. It’ll be the UK or nothing.
      Just saying……

    51. manandboy says:

      Hammond offering Hamish sweets, makes me think of those who offer kids sweets if they’ll get into the car. It’s not a new idea – England has been doing that to Scotland for at least 300 years. And still doing it. The British Empire as a type is paedophilic, ie it preys on the unsuspecting with the intention of rape and exploitation. And still doing it.

      Harold Shipman was a fine upstanding servant of his community – until he was investigated properly. Before that, any suspicions raised about him, were dismissed as nonsense at best and outrageous by those protecting him.

      When the history books and records are examined after Independence, Scotland will forever wonder why so many accepted England’s crimes against Scotland as nonse

    52. Jack Murphy says:

      Another Union Dividend said at 10:06 am
      “O/T Radio Shortbread this morning has zilch coverage of Lord Wolfe’s constitutional submission to Supreme Court which could have significant implications for Brexit timetable and post-Brexit devolved politics.———–”

      Brexit is all the talk,and even the Daily Telegraph is investigating the constitutional ramifications.
      Scotland’s broadcaster chooses to ignore!

      That is exactly why the BBC in Scotland is held in ‘low regard’ [my euphemism] by so many people.

    53. handclapping says:

      Go on admit it not only have you got your first Xmas card up but you’ve been to the panto Jack and the Beanstalk and you were scared by the Giant! 😀 Hammond reminds me of Terry Pratchett’s Downey, head of the Assasins Guild. Smashing ‘toon as always Chris.

      Andrew Coulson 12:24
      I’d rather nothing than continue as the rear end of the panto dragon that is the UK. All we get from them is the farts, lets have some frsh air.

    54. Grouse Beater says:

      Chris, did you know the fictional John Bull is the creation of a Scotsman, John Arbuthnot, a physician and satirist – the idea to laugh at English stolid-ness.

      Bull originally wore a frock coat; only recently did somebody stick a Union Jack waistcoat on him.

      Like Uncle Sam in his silly golfing troos, you could say John Bull is an early attempt at brand image-making.

      Your weekend reading
      The something for nothing society: http://wp.me/p4fd9j-ba4
      Rowling’s grasp of grammar and grot: http://wp.me/p4fd9j-bfH

    55. defo says:

      Andrew Coulson says: at 12:24 pm
      “If Marine Le Pen wins and takes France out of the EU, the EU will collapse, and Scotland will no longer have a choice to make between the UK and the EU. It’ll be the UK or nothing.
      Just saying……”

      It’ll be the UK, or the freedom to decide our own future.
      Just saying….

    56. manandboy says:

      Hammond offering Hamish sweets, makes me think of those who offer kids sweets if they’ll get into the car. It’s not a new idea – England has been doing that to Scotland for at least 300 years. And still doing it.

      Harold Shipman was a fine upstanding servant of his community – until he was investigated properly. Before that, any suspicions raised about him, were dismissed by those protecting him, as nonsense at best and outrageous at worst. The British Establishment is still protecting Westminster’s paedophile rings.

      When the history books and records are examined after Independence, Scotland will forever wonder why so many here dismissed England’s crimes against Scotland as outrageous nonsense. I can think of a few who’ll be moving south, all of them Unionists.

    57. DerekM says:

      o/t Oh look slabbers are out putting leaflets through doors.

      Save our NHS(which one slabbers Scotland or England)

      After 10 years of SNP(bad)control our NHS is in distress

      1.6 billion cut from GP funding

      1 in 4 GP practices short of doctors

      more than 2000 nursing posts unfilled

      more than 5000 beds cut from our hospitals

      longer waiting in A@E,cancelled operations and cancer patients waiting to long for diagnosis.

      Well slabbers i will save the Scottish NHS by not letting you fuckwits and your evil blue tory pals anywhere near it ever again.

    58. heedtracker says:

      Andrew Coulson

      You’re not THE Andy Coulson are you, ex Murdoch ligger, ex tory gov spokes ligger, ex con at her majesty’s pleasure are you?

      Hope so 😀

      Why do tory Britnats want the EU to end anyway, is most pointless query of the day, so far.

    59. Tam Jardine says:

      Jack Murphy 

      This doesn’t surprise me at all. I had to ask my fellow cybernats last night for a link to the submission as I had searched in vain for coverage on the net.

      I read it last night until my eyes began glazing over with fatigue after a long day nursing the cold. I think history will record Wolfe’s submission as one of the most important documents in the history of these Isles. Without going into detail (as I am not a third through it) I just marvel at the task he was charged with: to write a document presenting a case to block the UK government railroading article 50 through and to assert nay, to demand Scottish consultation, consent or otherwise.

      It goes to the very heart of the matter: are we a colony or are we a country.

      The press tends to report news in inverse proportion to its import: hence we get countless articles on JK Rowling tweets and precious little on this submission.

      It is a credit to the Wings community that so much of what I have read so far has been pored over endlessly on Wings over the last few months and years. It mocks the stereotype the media like to portray us as: woad covered braveheart obsessed neanderthals.

      If anyone wanted to pull a few of the more pertinent paragraphs and ask Stu to post as an article it would be useful for those with neither the time nor inclination to wade through the submission.

    60. Jockanese Wind Talker says:

      Utter Boll*cks @ Andrew Coulson says at 12:24 pm

      “If Marine Le Pen wins and takes France out of the EU, the EU will collapse, and Scotland will no longer have a choice to make between the UK and the EU. It’ll be the UK or nothing.”

      No Andrew, it will a choice between an Independent Scotland with access to all the powers and levers all other independent nations take for granted or the UK and the bare minimum of powers (as we currently have).

      Just saying……

    61. Ken500 says:

      NHS spending in Scotland has (pro rata) increased. The Westminster Unionists/Labour have cut NHS spending pro rata. Trying to cut the NHS spending by £20Billion over five years.

      The SNP have mitigated the cuts, increased SNHS spending and put more into social care. The Unionists and Green No Party do not pass on the funding for adequate essential local services. Preferring to spend it on grotesque projects, with no mandate, the majority do not support. Against the majority wishes and the public interest.

      The NHS in England/Wales is falling apart. The Unionist lies will not do them any good. Complusive liars are always found out. No one believes a word that they say.

    62. ClanDonald says:

      OK, so let me get this right:

      UK is borrowing £23 billion to invest in infrastructure.

      Scotland will have to pay our share of this back as well as paying interest. Our population share of this debt is about £1.9 billion.

      This is based on the Scottish population being 8.3% of the UK total.

      In return Scotland gets £800 million to spend on infrastructure in Scotland. (Or 3.5% of the total UK infrastructure amount).

      So Scotland gets back about 42% of what we contribute. The other 58% is kept by Westminster to spend on what they call “national” projects, eg, mostly in London.

      We will also be paying over double the interest we should be paying every year to service this borrowing, as we’ll be paying interest on the £1.9 billion instead of the £800 million that we’re actually getting.

      Is that a fair analysis of how the system works?

      Hurrah for Barnett consequentials!!

      Then the media, the tories and Professor Tomkins all exclaim:

      “Hey, next door neighbour, lets take out a joint mortgage of £100k. You can spend 5% of it on your extention and I’ll spend 95% on mine. Then you can pay back 10% of the mortgage every month. And all your other neighbours can tell you how generous I am giving you a gift of £5000, lucky you”.

    63. Chic McGregor says:

      The Brexicutioner commeth.

      Don’t fall for the old cock and bull.

    64. Grouse Beater says:

      Fascist sympathiser says, “I hope Scotland gets it in the neck” and France too”.

      “If Marine Le Pen wins and takes France out of the EU, the EU will collapse, and Scotland will no longer have a choice to make.” Andrew Coulson.

    65. HandandShrimp says:

      If Marine Le Pen wins and takes France out of the EU, the EU will collapse, and Scotland will no longer have a choice to make between the UK and the EU. It’ll be the UK or nothing.
      Just saying…

      Not convinced that she would take France out of the EU if elected. However, she would make the life of immigrants to France very, very difficult. I haven’t seen much of anything regarding complaints regarding freedom of movement within the EU as a political issue in France. The hot potato issue is Islamic fundamentalism….or for Front Nationale anyone a bit non-European looking.

      If the EU ceased to exist I would echo the view of JWT – independence is an option. The notion that the Union is only game in town or even a good game is open to question. Anyway, in the absence of the EU something very like it would quickly coalesce.

    66. Dorothy Devine says:

      Socrates , there is a huge blank space beyond the offensive headline – more than enough for a Mrs or a Judy.

      I take on board the dreadful sub editors and their inability to do their job efficiently or with grace.

    67. defo says:

      ClanDonald
      “Is that a fair analysis of how the system works?

      Hurrah for Barnett consequentials!!”

      Nicely put D. Inconsequentials more apt though.

    68. Paul D says:

      It may have been discussed already an I have missed it, but why if the UK infrastructure spending is going to be ~£25bn, are we only getting £800m? Surely we should be getting at least £2bn?

    69. Bob Mack says:

      @Paul D,

      Yes we should. We will be paying the full 8% share in debt though.
      Between renovating Westminster and Buckingham Palace they are going to spend over £9 billion. We pay for that too.

    70. Dr Jim says:

      The SNP aren’t giving us the kind of Independence we want

      Iv’e been noticing this gripe more and more recently from so called Independence supporters and scribblers whingeing about the whethers of this type or that type of Indy are the right type and amongst them the “Ahm no happy” brigade

      Not long ago we wanted Independence in order to make our own choices, it seems now there are folk demanding to have a moan about the choices before we get a choice and that puzzles me

      Are these folk for real? Now that Independence is so close we can almost taste it what’s all the anxiety about the style of it about
      There are scribblers out there who make their living from griping about not having self determination, are they worried they’ll be out of a job when we get it or did they not really want it in the first place

      Maybe folk could just remember the point, get the Independence first, gripe moan and scribble about the type of Indy later once Scotland gets allowed to choose, whereas at the moment we don’t even have that, and if I could just say a word in support of the SNP they’re a wee bit busy at the minute negotiating with everybody, trying to make pals with the folk who matter, and counting up the survey polls every week towards working out what everybody wants and needs in order to present the country with what they have gauged we all want and what they’re able to deliver, and all that in the face of a Tory government who don’t know what to do so they’re doing virtually nothing and they wont tell us anyway, except to say Scotland’s getting no deal

      Not an easy job this politicking (wouldn’t be me for any money) shouting’s much easier

    71. Proud Cybernat says:

      “It’ll be the UK or nothing.”

      So, if the EU ceases to exist, you can just see Ireland clambering to rejoin the UK union, can’t you?

      (Stop the sniggering at the back).

    72. Chic McGregor says:

      OT More outrageous behaviour from Erdogan. He is now threatening to open the border gates and let 3 million plus refugees into Europe if the EU does not continue with Turkey membership talks.

      Can’t see how Europe can give in to such a blatant blackmail threat.

      I don’t suppose Europe could refuse to take them if he carried out his threat, but it will be interesting to see how Germany in particular plays it. Germany already has a similar number of Turkish workers, they could, and with some justification, carry out an enforced immigrant ‘exchange’ program. ‘For every one you send you can take one of your own back.’ Turkey couldn’t refuse to take back their own citizen’s now, could they?

      Ob. Tortuous pun: A case of Turkey’s voting for mass-switch.

    73. Ken500 says:

      Infrastructure spending £23Billion over 5 years

      Scotland £800Milion over five years.

      Increased debt borrowing £122Billion?

      The £800Million will not even cover the increased loan repayments Scotland will have to pay on the money borrowed and spent in the rest of the UK. Not in Scotland.

      Hinkley Point -£100Billion over budget and time. The last one built in the world in Finland (France) was seven years late and £Billions over budget. HS2 £100Million? Years late and overbudget (too expensive of little value no business case, no customer base. Heathrow. Another runway. It will be obsolete before it is finished. No business case. Trident £100Billion. Obsolete. A total waste of money. There are much cheaper, better, feasible renewable alternatives. £300Billion+ A total waste of money. Plus the rest. All to suit Westminster – London S/E. it is the Westminster way. To take £Billions out of Scotland. They think they can get away with it.

    74. Hamish100 says:

      Dr Jim,

      Agree. Last week we had “bookie” on saying if no Scots £ he wont vote for independence!!!

      The trolls will increase. The wee posts of doubt will also. It is the British state fighting back.

      If you want to make any decisions FOR this country all our efforts must be on Independence. What that means Scots can decide if they want at some stage to be in the euro, remain with £ sterling (our currency just now) or something else.

      The debate now, is Scotland by a substantial majority VOTED to remain in the EU. Its mandate must be seen through to the end.

      iNDY REF 2 is coming –but of our choosing.

    75. Ken500 says:

      The UK will collapse before the EU. The UK has more debt, more inequality, more illegal wars, more borrowing, more banking fraud and tax evasion.

    76. galamcennalath says:

      Ken500 says:

      The UK has more ….

      …. really crap politicians. How many Tory, Labour, LibDem politicians genuinely get our respect and trust?

      Ten, twenty years ago there were some, I might not have agreed with them on everything, but I would have rated them as ‘honourable’. Now? I’m hard pressed to suggest any.

    77. Fireproofjim says:

      Dr Jim,
      Absolutely right. I can’t believe these people who want to have every tiny detail about independence sorted out before we vote for it. There is only one thing that matters – to win the vote- then we can spend the rest of time deciding how we organise the new Scotland.
      I have seen posts on Wings complaining about the EU or the Monarchy or the currency and implying that if the SNP don’t follow their particular line they cannot support them.
      Well, with independence everybody will have a chance to influence our future. Without it, as we know, we will get what England wants, and it is only the SNP who can deliver.

    78. frogesque says:

      O/t.

      Soho, red (white and blue) district of London plunged into darkness on black Friday of all days.

      Why aren’t Sturgeon, Yousef and Swinney resigning!

      Oh! sorry it’s London, England and it’s just a bit of fun according to EBC Breakfast. No resignation calls to our precious Con masters.

    79. Chic McGregor says:

      Just had a quick swatch at Eurosat

      Balance of payments deficit for UK 2015 was around 140 billion, next nearest deficit was France, about 10 billion.
      Germany was about 200 billion surplus.

    80. Chic McGregor says:

      Eurostat 🙂

    81. brewsed says:

      Sort of O/T but if you are looking for the Scottish Government’s submission to the Supreme Court re article 50, it is here:

      http://www.gov.scot/Resource/0051/00510602.pdf

    82. Legerwood says:

      Chic McGregor @ 3.16

      Another country you could have mentioned is the Republic of Ireland has had an annual trade surplus every year since 1990.

    83. Robert Louis says:

      Jack Murphy at 1235pm

      I agree, but I think the reason the BBC in Scotland is not covering the constitution, is because none of them at pacific Quay understand Scotland’s constitutional history. Given they are all rampant brain washed London lovers, who see nothing but bad in Scotland, and believe any old p*sh uttered by Westminster (who also btw, know b*gger all about Scotland’s constitution) it is unlikely any of them would ever actually bother to read Scottish history – or even the treaty of union.

      I can only imagine, that as part of the induction process at Pacific Quay, new staff are forced to watch every wholly distorted history series by the Scotland-hating David Starkey, and thon other London loving long-haired non historian unionist (nobody remembers his name).

      If given the actual facts of Scotland’s constitutional reality, they likely would never believe you.

    84. Andrew Coulson says:

      It is interesting to see how much a simple comment reveals to a discerning audience about my general character and opinions……..
      A higher proportion of Scots voted for the EU than voted for the UK, so I (like many other people) had thought that in a choice between the two, the proportion voting for independence (within the EU), would rise.
      If the EU collapses next year, the choice won’t arise.
      The Tories would no doubt be delighted to see Brexit negotiations being transformed overnight into discussions on how to set up its populist replacement.

    85. Chess man. says:

      Once had the ‘pleasure’ of over-hearing a half-drunk ‘John Bull’ bellowing out a racist remark in his sports club bar. (Chairman of that ‘elite’ county club too.) While my lads team were coming off the field, after a well earned draw, he called out, “Shaheed Kahn, whit sorta Scotch name is that?” Being a sports coach, I had to restrain myself from slapping his face.

    86. Robert J. Sutherland says:

      frogesque @ 15:09,

      O/T, but exactly the same thought occurred to me as I saw that news report.

      It’s a wonder that Reporting Scotland hasn’t tried to turn it into SNPbaaad anyway, though! (“Scotland fails to provide London with enough electricity…”)

    87. Proud Cybernat says:

      And slowly but ever so assuredly, England’s frothing, arrogant, xenophobic print & broadcasr media awake to the reality that their beloved UK means something that was once beyond their ken–that they are bound by the rules of an ACTUAL TREATY with Scotland.

      How did THAT happen, they ask themselves in total befuddlement? Because you have no effing clue about the history of how the UK came into being. Learn the history you bunch of retards and then understand this–Scotland’s people HAVE A LEGAL RIGHT to be heard. Aye–the too wee, too poor, too effing stupid uppity sweaties HAVE A SAY in their own future.

      Doffs cap to Mr Peffers.

    88. Proud Cybernat says:

      “The Tories would no doubt be delighted to see Brexit negotiations being transformed overnight into discussions on how to set up its populist replacement.”

      Is that a fact?

      “In science, ‘fact’ can only mean “confirmed to such a degree that it would be perverse to withhold provisional assent. I suppose that apples might start to rise tomorrow, but the possibility does not merit equal time in physics classrooms.” – Stephen Jay Gould

      Get a grip.

    89. Cactus says:

      This post is about Sport.. Rugby..

      Well played Scotland! That’s more like it.

      Cheers Chris.

    90. Robert J. Sutherland says:

      Dr Jim @ 13:44,
      Fireproofjim (no relation, I presume!) @ 15:07,

      Well said, the two Jims.

      Top of the list must be the idiot given a loudhailer by BBC R4 one Sunday to declaim that although a member of the SNP, he would vote “no” in indyref2 rather than stay in the EU. (As if it would be different somehow from indyref1.) These quibblers really do need to get a grip.

      Some folk are just impossibly naive, and only need a little gentle encouragement to keep their eye on the ball. But I wonder to what extent some aren’t what they claim to be at all, and are in fact Unionist “plants” trying to disrupt the indy movement.

      Like the greater incidence of trolls posting on here. They’re getting nervous.

      Wonder why…?

    91. Grouse Beater says:

      Andrew Coulson: “If the EU collapses next year, the choice won’t arise.”

      What evidence is there for your proposition the EU will collapse next year or after?

    92. Robert Peffers says:

      @Andrew Coulson says: 26 November, 2016 at 4:04 pm:

      “It is interesting to see how much a simple comment reveals to a discerning audience about my general character and opinions……..”

      Aye! Andrew we can spot Yoon Loons and trolls within the first phrase a new commenter types. Mind you it does help us when they do all tend to fall into a rather narrow band of weel kent characteristics.

      However, in your case it was probably more about what you actually deduced from what you stated rather than how you stated it.

      And here you go again, it seems.

      ” … A higher proportion of Scots voted for the EU than voted for the UK … “That’s fine so far.

      ” … so I (like many other people) had thought that in a choice between the two, the proportion voting for independence (within the EU), would rise.”

      Now here’s the rub, Andrew, first you claim that there are, or were, others doing the same as yourself. Yet you give no clue whatsoever as to who, what or how many these, “Many others”, might be.

      Then, of course you do not indicate whether you are even authorised to be speaking on their behalf.

      Can you thus see that some of us, and I am really only speaking on my own behalf, might just wish to know that whatever was to follow was their, or your own, conclusions?

      Personally, for again I cannot speak for others, I suspect any newcomer to Wings who makes such claims to probably be some form of troll or UKOK supporter as these last all tend to preach the same mantra and it stems directly from the Westminster Establishment propaganda machinery.

      What is more, you attempt to tie together two events with a fair passage of time between them. Yet the second event may, or may not, be influenced by the first as much mas occurred in the meantime. It is thus rather nebulous to think the voting people of Scotland have also linked the two events together or even that the first lot are exactly the same lot as the first lot were.

      “If the EU collapses next year, the choice won’t arise.
      The Tories would no doubt be delighted to see Brexit negotiations being transformed overnight into discussions on how to set up its populist replacement.”

      Again this is not only supposition but again assumes that others have not only thought like you but have drawn the same conclusions as you and have linked together those same two events.

      The whole point about Scottish independence is not which, if any, outside organisation an independent Scotland would, or should, espouse but simple they be free and independent enough to do so in the first place.

    93. Hamish100 says:

      1st December Tank Commander on BBC Question Time for the tories (Not a MP) FLUFFY BEING AVOIDED, Alan Johnston for Labour UK– THE 3RD LARGEST PARTY at Westminster? Who are they? Liberals on every week.

      BBC partiality for all to see. Exec Producer Hayley Valentine worked with STV and BBC Scotland– pally I believe with ex bbc reporter Ruth Davidson. Director Rob Hopkin who worked with Glenn Capmbell on the Big Debate. He also commented on why BBC Scotchshire stopped comments online during indy ref 1 and said in a statement”..“BBC Scotland has decided to disable the capacity for public comments to be regularly appended to both the Brian Taylor and Douglas Fraser online correspondent pages; the pages will, however, occasionally be opened for comment. We believe that by determining which particular issues might best be explored by the inclusion of public comment online, we will allow a more flexible and a more adaptable approach to be taken to how we cover the main issues in Scotland.” We don’t take criticism in other words. We tell you what is to be discussed. Got it?
      So plenty of Scottish Connections with QT so how come last week QT from Stirling ..in Scotland- only 2 Scots were represented on the panel?

      Maybe the Scots Select Committee or Holyrood could invite in for a wee explanation?

    94. maureen says:

      O/T
      I don’t do twitter so I am going to say this here. Rev Stu, loving the Welcherwatch on your twitter!

    95. heedtracker says:

      Scottish facebook news, posted this afternoon. Old media still wraps tomorrow chips though, or something.

      “Paolo Nutini has allegedly refused to allow BBC Scotland to film his set during the Edinburgh Hogmanay Show. Mr Nutini is the headliner act in this year’s show.

      The BBC’s anti-independence bias during the independence referendum campaign and the continuing pro-Union narrative appears to have poisoned the relationship between Mr Nutini and BBC Scotland.”

      Every thing helps.

      http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=s-xd3NuWQI0

    96. Robert Peffers says:

      @Chess man. says: 26 November, 2016 at 4:05 pm:

      … While my lads team were coming off the field, after a well earned draw, he called out, “Shaheed Kahn, whit sorta Scotch name is that?” Being a sports coach, I had to restrain myself from slapping his face.”

      Oh! Chess man there is a rather good retort to that kind of racism. It goes like this:=
      “It is not a traditional Scots name but under the laws of Scotland if ticks every single point of the definition of, “The legally sovereign people of Scotland”, namely, “Those of any colour, creed or country of origin who are mainly resident in Scotland and are registered to vote in Scottish elections”.

    97. bugsbunny says:

      I see that J. K. Rowling is worth £1 billion again. She in the recent past went to America to sue a 50 year old Librarian for supposed plagiarism. And watched stoney faced as he broke down. What a testimonial to Unionist Apologists. Disgusting Woman.

    98. heedtracker says:

      bugsbunny says:
      26 November, 2016 at 5:28 pm
      I see that J. K. Rowling is worth £1 billion again

      One thousand million quid, for cheezy grot. But she’s still nineteen thousand million quid poorer than the queen.

      How much will Rowling give Better Together 2.0?

    99. Lenny Hartley says:

      Looks like Humza Yousaf will definately have to resign now.

      Can’t archive the link and not giving the BBC any clicks, but apparently there has been a power cut on the West Coast main line between Swindon and Bristol leaving thousands of passengers stranded.

    100. Ken500 says:

      After the EU Ref vote. Even Starkey said, ‘Scotland should go for Independence’.

      On drugs?

      Ewan McGregor’s brother bombs. Ewan McGregor appeals for Aid.

    101. One_Scot says:

      That’s what I love about the Rev, he goes the distance and doesn’t let these stains get away with their Yoon BS.

      https://twitter.com/WingsScotland/status/802557548352208896

    102. One_Scot says:

      I’m not the ‘having a hero’ type of guy, but man he does make it hard.

    103. Gary45% says:

      Hamish100@5.14.
      The BBC employs paedophiles (FACT).
      The BBC is corrupt(FACT.
      The BBC is BIASED SHITE(FACT).
      If anyone on the site is still paying for the TV licence, hang your heads in shame.
      I never thought in a million years I would stand up against the EBC bollocks by not paying the licence, after 2 years, “bliss” I wish I had done it 30 years ago.

      There is no excuse.
      PS Alistair Carbuncle is still a FUC*ING LIAR. “I know O/T
      had a wee love letter from the Lying Democun*s today.”
      NEVER FORGET.
      A wee sortie into Eljin in Mo ray today(that’s how its pronounced by the increase of free prescription Yoons, its going to be hard for the Indy cause in Moray.
      Before anyone goes off on one, I welcome ANYONE to Scotland, but they have to accept Scotland in the polar opposite of Whingestan.

    104. Calum McKay says:

      The bbc heralded this supposed money as pennies from a uk heaven.

      What it failed to point out was workers future pay rises would pay for it, providing everything went the uk’s way with brexit negotiations.

      Already it is apparent the uk will get what the EU decide, which due to the tone of british nationalist tories towards EU, will be SFA, it will be universe of pain, lost generations and emigration (to where?).

      UK’s fecked, it”a time to bail!

      You’re in with the crows you get shot!

    105. Gary45% says:

      heedtracker@5.39.
      Aye I saw this yesterday.
      She may have a billion but she will never be Tolkien.
      Nuf said.

    106. Cactus says:

      Aye, penny chew bribes.. I received a red padded envelope addressed to The Householder, from Richie Branson recently.

      Wanted me to take out a package.. also inside was a small packet of crushed Virgin jelly beans.. haul, I’m not in the least interested, ye can keep yer beans pal. Ye see I’m ‘easily unimpressed!’ with this kinda stuff, ye can’t buy me.

      I’ll stick with the real-deal as it is..

      Independence for Scotland.
      X.

    107. One_Scot says:

      ‘If anyone on the site is still paying for the TV licence, hang your heads in shame.’

      I haven’t paid it for so long I can’t tell how many years its been. (probably 5 or 6 years)

      A woman from Capita even phoned me up and told me my licence was due for renewal and asked if I have a credit card to hand. I nearly burst out laughing.

      After about half an hour of me telling her exactly why I could not pay it, a lot was about the BBC Scotland and the manipulation of information against Scotland, and that how I could not take food away from my children’s mouths to pay for the BBC to transmit propaganda against Scotland, she asked me if I wanted to put down that I did not watch TV.

      I won’t go into more of the conversation, but, really, if you really do support Scotland being an Independent country, you really do need to grow a pair and tell these people to get to France.

    108. heedtracker says:

      Gary45% says:
      26 November, 2016 at 7:08 pm
      heedtracker@5.39.
      Aye I saw this yesterday.
      She may have a billion but she will never be Tolkien.
      Nuf said.

      We’re lucky she’s not exactly a deep thinker nor an important writer. Wonder what BetterTogether did with her million quid donation though. She went for it mid June 2014, which was a pretty critical stage and she may well have won it for teamGB, or saved us from a fate worse than not actually owned and reigned over by the tories, red and blue.

      Graun for example, made no mention of where the vile sep busting Rowling dosh went but this is a neat example of why they suck, really really suck…

      “Rowling explained her decision in a 1,600-word essay on her website, arguing that devolution had allowed Scotland to flourish and protected its public services. She said she understood the romantic faith in Scotland’s capacity to stand on its own, and that the argument that it could be fairer, greener and more equal sounded “highly appealing”. But she cited unanswered questions about currency and EU membership, as well as evidence that the Scottish government’s spending plans were too reliant on volatile oil revenues.

      “If we leave, there will be no going back. This separation will not be quick and clean: it will take microsurgery to disentangle three centuries of close interdependence, after which we will have to deal with three bitter neighbours.”

    109. Gary45% says:

      Aye heedtracker, It is going to be tough, to many brit nats still believing the daily staple of garbage being fed to them North and South of the border.
      The beauty of Indy2014 was Scotland woke up to the establishment and realised the myth of corruption, lies, bias and all round fear-mongering from the “Establishment”
      Yes the country lost a golden chance to take a path to “light at the end of the tunnel”, it was there, our finger tips caressed it, but the “majority”!? blew it.
      Every day I still get the usual short sited garbage press yoon fest from some friends/customers who still believe the gutter press, it is slowly becoming a reality with some of them that they were duped,but my big fear is Scotland will shaft itself yet again for something as simple as some Shitey EBC programme that they will not get to watch when Scotland becomes Independent, I know that sound trite but that’s basically what happened the last time, anyone remember the VOW!!!!?

    110. Bob Mack says:

      Reflecting over the year ,it seems the Yoons have a cyclic policy. First they attack the health service,then move on to education,then the police and crime, then infrastructure. When that is done they then attack the people .

      However all the evidence is against them, so they carry on repeating as before.

      The main danger to Scotland is not these fools,but the deliberate stripping of finances by Westminster to choke the SNP and their ability to govern.

      Decreasing budgets via Barnett will affect us all and I hope people waken up to the fact that whether they are independent minded or staunch Unionist they will suffer equally. This is the harsh reality.

      Only a complete fool would endure this state of affairs.

    111. CameronB Brodie says:

      “If we leave, there will be no going back. This separation will not be quick and clean: it will take microsurgery to disentangle three centuries of close interdependence, after which we will have to deal with three bitter neighbours.”

      Sounds like the sort of individual who would stay in an abusive relationship, purely because they lack the self-confidence to make a new start for themselves. Quite pathetic, frankly.

      @jk
      What’s your knowledge base? What is your comprehension of post-modern critical social theory? Equality? The semiotic theory of space and place? Sustainability? Are you aware of the history of human emancipation from subjugation? Not a fan of the suffragette movement?

      P.S. “Put the master’s tools down”.

    112. Valerie says:

      Will Hutton, Economist.

      Brexit is poison.

      I do sometimes wonder if Brexit is just a convenient fig leaf, to cover the absolute financial mess the country is in without Brexit.

      The country literally just can’t adjust to the utter mess and deficiencies.

      http://archive.is/vtHLg

    113. mike cassidy says:

      Now, if only this article about the BBC had been titled

      “Speaking In Forked Tongues”.

      When will they stop telling themselves they can take the government coin AND be perceived as objective by their audiences.

      Scotland will never be free until the last minister is strangled with the last copy of the Radio Times.

      Loved the picture of the radio dial, though. You have to be of a certain age, children!

    114. Lenny Hartley says:

      O/T following on Alec Salmonds FB page, I await the apologies.

      Red faces all round for Labour, Telegraph and Daily Mail as the Independent Parliamentary Standards Authority (IPSA) confirm that last week’s expense attack on the Scottish National Party (SNP) was based on wrong figures!

      IPSA issued a written acknowledgement and apology to the SNP, and new figures published on their website confirm that in 2015/16 SNP MPs in fact cost less than our predecessors did in 2014/15 – by over £1 million.

      On average SNP MPs cost over £21,000 less than their Scottish Labour and Lib Dem predecessors.

    115. mike cassidy says:

      Now, if only this article about the BBC had been titled

      “Speaking In Forked Tongues”.

      http://archive.is/L1N8J

      When will they stop telling themselves they can take the government coin AND be perceived as objective by their audiences.

      Scotland will never be free until the last minister is strangled with the last copy of the Radio Times.

      Loved the picture of the radio dial, though. You have to be of a certain age, children!

    116. ScottishPsyche says:

      O/T

      I see Tompkins is the latest Yoon to demonstrate their inability to understand a figure of speech. Nail on the head, get in the sea, go home…

      Of course it could be he is trying to to make capital out of something he understands all too well. Maybe is he trying to deflect from his horrendously poor judgement with the rail pics?

      Or he is just being a giant arse as usual.

    117. Croompenstein says:

      Tomkins is completely off the scale yoonerism it’s like having batshit Jill or moonshot Gallagher in our parliament, an embarassment to Scotland.

      I took the go home as a polite way of saying fuck off which is what we all want Tomkins to do…

    118. gerry.parker says:

      That’s the next Yoon scare been identified then.
      The EU will collapse soon – but there will always be an England

    119. Sinky says:

      Lenny Hartley says:
      26 November, 2016 at 8:49 pm
      O/T following on Alec Salmonds FB page, I await the apologies.

      Red faces all round for Labour, Telegraph and Daily Mail as the Independent Parliamentary Standards Authority (IPSA) confirm that last week’s expense attack on the Scottish National Party (SNP) was based on wrong figures!

      I am sure that the newspapers concerned willprint a prominent correction but then IPSO press authority https://www.ipso.co.uk/ is as useful as a chocolate firegauard when it comes to Tory press slandering people.

    120. ScottishPsyche says:

      I forgot about the awful Jess Phillips as well who thought someone wanted to kill her when they alluded to her brass neck being impervious to a blow torch!

      Imagine going to see Tomkins (I always get his name wrong) with a problem and trying to convey your difficulties. I cannot think of anyone, except Murdo maybe, who would have less empathy for your situation.

      He knows that we all know he was parachuted in to deal with the constitutional question and he knows that we know he is utterly useless.

    121. Robert Peffers says:

      @heedtracker says: 26 November, 2016 at 7:33 pm:

      “If we leave, there will be no going back. This separation will not be quick and clean: it will take microsurgery to disentangle three centuries of close interdependence, after which we will have to deal with three bitter neighbours.”

      No problem disentangling over three centuries of close inter WHAT?

      To my mind the country of England has well over 3 centuries of being dependent upon outside stolen resources to prop up their economy.

      Disentangling Scottish matters from Westminster is very, very simple. If they quibble about anything whatsoever we tell them all deals are off and they can keep their assets and their debits and we will keep ours.

      By that time they will be disconnected from the European continent and have all their borders with hostile nations and be forced to live off their own resources or pay a fair price for them. What can be seen is that England, Wales and N.I. have long been net importers of food, fuel and power.

      Scotland on the other hand have long been net exporters of all three scarce commodities. Furthermore, anything they can manufacture so can Scotland and any service they can provide – so can Scotland.

      BTW: at present all three of those commodities data is manipulated in order to rob Scotland, They take all revenues from the oil & Gas; they fiddle the export figures by counting Scots produce exported via English ports as being English exports and they operate the National Grid, “Grid Connection Charge”, system that forces the Scottish generating companies to pay more to add electricity to the grid depending on how far they are from London while subsidising the southern generating companies.

      Come independence and Brexit they will be in competition with every state that surrounds them and with closed borders with them all.

      As for, “dealing with three bitter neighbours”, what does the daft idiot of a woman imagine we have been dealing with since the Romans first invaded Britain?

      Scotland did not enter into the United Kingdom of her own free will and anyone who knows Scottish history can show you the proof of that particular claim.

      From Roman times to almost 40 years after the Treaty of Union the two kingdoms were slaughtering each other. There isn’t an inch of ground from Berwick to Solway and all points north that is not steeped in the bloodshed of Scottish vs English bitter battles.

      Just as a wee example of how bitter and extensive has been the relationship between the two. When they were constructing what was laughingly described as the M90 Motorway from the Forth Road Bridge north they were digging up the skeletal remains and old weaponry of many, many battles including both of the Battles Of Inverkeithing.

      They were still finding human remains and weaponry well north past Kinross and Milnathort.

      Inverkeithing was fought in 1651, it happened between the, (wrongly claimed by England), Union of the Crowns, and the Treaty of Union of 1706/7.

      Does this ignorant woman imagine these events were sweetness and light? They were part of the English Kingdoms forceful construction of the United Kingdom.

      When you are aware of the history then you can better understand why Westminster just assumes that the did extinguish the Kingdom of Scotland in 1706/7.

      None the less the actual treaty and acts of union say it was a legal treaty of two equally sovereign kingdoms and that is what is now being taken to the supreme court.

      Just think of what that means. The supreme court has two choices. If they throw the claim out they are saying that Westminster did indeed extinguish the Scottish Kingdom in 1706/7 and is now actually the Kingdom of England renamed as the United Kingdom but the Treaty of Union says otherwise.

      The Treaty says it is a legal union of two equally sovereign partner entered into freely by both parties.

      If they throw the case out they say it was NOT a legal treaty

      Note: Here’s a cite to YouTube for an insight of the Battle of Inverkeithing:-

      http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hcsF3ORgEzs

    122. heedtracker says:

      Robert Peffers says:
      26 November, 2016 at 9:54 pm
      @heedtracker says: 26 November, 2016 at 7:33 pm:

      Great history between two countries Robert. Keep it all coming! Noticed The Rock’s eased off on his charming critique of all your great commenting. Just goes to show. Never tell any YESer to shut up.

      Did you see latest cover of BBC History magazine?

      “Edward I’s, battle for Britain” front cover.

      Saw it and thought, I know a certain Scottish YESer historian who could get seriously medieval on your sorry arse, BBC History magazine.

      If youre in to it, the BBC magazine is really almost entirely English history, or just the usual, BBC England is Britain stuff. Good mag but if you want to give them an embolism, tell BBC historian’s things like, its not Roman Britain, its Roman England and Wales, sort of Brit nat baiting.

      Keep it coming Robert.

    123. Lenny Hartley says:

      Bbc TV news , shows a clip from Ireland v Australia,mWales v South Africa and England v Argentina, I await wit anticipation to watch the Try of the day from Scotland, Er no, no clip from the Scotland games but what’s this we get a clip from English women’s rugby!

    124. Tam Jardine says:

      yesindyref2

      Some amusing posts on the Nuttall piece in the Express… it never fails to amaze me how daft some folk are. My favourite is the great Expressism which features on every single Express article. To paraphrase: “have another vote but let people in the rest of the UK decide”. The Paul Nuttall piece reads like a best-of Express anti-Scottish soundbites.

    125. heedtracker says:

      Graun;s Will Hutton teatime,

      “Brexit is pure poison, polluting everything it touches. The fundamental questions the country should be addressing – the crisis in productivity growth, the lack of affordable housing, the overwhelming strain on public services, our desperately weak export sector – are all sidelined. There is not the bandwith or capacity to address them against the gigantic question of how to weather the greatest shock to our economy and society since 1945.

      Be in no doubt. Brexit transcends the 1974 oil shock or the 2008/9 financial crash in the probable scale, intensity and duration of its impact. Every aspect of our economy is going to be affected. Investment decisions are going to be abandoned or reduced.”

      Here’s why you should vote No today – The Labour Party

      http://www.labour.org.uk/blog/entry/heres-why-you-should-vote-no-today

      18 Sep 2014 – A No vote will get you, better, faster, safer change for a stronger Scotland with more powers on tax and welfare.
      “Better change, faste

    126. heedtracker says:

      er, safer change for a stronger Scotland with more powers on tax and welfare.

      “Better change, faster change, safer change is our offer for Scotland …
      labourlist.org › News
      12 Sep 2014 – When better, faster, safer change is coming that’s not a risk anyone who … be proud to vote No on Thursday because it is in Scotland’s interests.

      No vote will mean faster, better and safer change for … – Daily Record
      http://www.dailyrecord › News › Politics › Ed Miliband
      15 Sep 2014 – LABOUR leader Ed Miliband said a No vote on Thursday would mean a stronger Scotland, with jobs across the country protected and our NHS .

      Scottish independence: Full text of David Cameron’s ‘no going back …
      http://www.independent.co.uk › News › UK › Scottish independence
      16 Sep 2014 – We meet in a week that could change the United Kingdom forever. ….. So a No vote actually means faster, fairer, safer and better change.

      Better Together – Timeline | Facebook
      https://www.facebook.com/bettertogetheruk/videos/727039227379721/
      The patriotic all-party & non-party campaign for Scotland in the UK. Promoted by Blair … September 18, 2014 ·. PLEASE SHARE: Vote NO for faster, better, safer change without all the risks of separation. Image may contain: text. LikeComment.

      And thousands and thousands of google hits just like these. Be proud to vote NO says SLabour.

    127. Liz g says:

      Robert Peffers @ 9.54
      Em… Robert I don’t think it will quite work that way.
      Well not in regards to the 1707 Treaty itself.

      The Supreme Court will probably not say anything about the Treaty that will confirm or deny how it functions,the best I think we can hope for,is some sort of confirmation in the Judgement that it’s a live document.
      But chances are that will be done indirectly.

      Now while that in a sense is upholding our view of it.
      It is still Not a judgement To uphold the status of the Treaty itself.
      That question still hasn’t been brought to a Court.

      For many reasons these Judge’s will, I think, try to say as little as possible about the Treaty,and certainly nothing definitive,if they can get away with it.

      What we will get though is an absolute win win situation on the Sewal convention stuff.

      Either the Court will rule…we have to be consulted,in which case we will be very publicly,overuled by Westminster after being derided all over the MSM,for the tail wagging the dog sort of thing.

      Or the Court will rule…That we don’t need to be consulted,which demonstrates the new Scotland Act that puts the Sewal convention on a statutory footing is not worth the paper it’s written on.
      Which demonstrates we were right about it,and puts to bed the myth that Holyrood is the most powerful devolved Parliament in the whole wide world.
      Oh and have you noticed Robert,since the Brexit vote they don’t say that anymore!!! funny that,there was a time when the couldn’t finish a sentence without sayin it.

      Whatever way it goes Westminster is going to be forced to pull rank and overrule Holyrood.
      And overrule it on an issue that Scot’s have voted on already.
      How Westminster justifies that should be hilarious.

      Personally I am hoping that there’s an issue arising out of this,that let’s Holyrood go to the European Court.
      That should set the cat among the pigeons!

    128. Cactus says:

      Did anyone else used to go to the ice-cream van and ask for a ‘one pence mix-up..’ That got them laughing 😉

      That’s all the tories wid give ye, if even.

      Bet ye Hammond’s sweeties are empty air filled wrappers.

      “It’s not even midnight!”

    129. Liz g says:

      Tam Jardine @ 10.40
      What I can’t wait to see is the politicians & the great and the good in England,campaign to”keep” Scotland.
      Last time around the English electorate were pretty ambivalent about us becoming independent.
      So the English MP’s could campaign away with no consequences.
      But this time the Westminster crew are going to have voter’s in their own backyard with very strong opinions.
      Formed by the Express,Nutall and their compatriots.

      I am now convinced there’s going to be a pop corn shortage.

    130. Cactus says:

      Yeah Lenny Hartley, I picked up on that too.. zero coverage of Scotland’s excellent rugby win against Georgia.. that wee up n under was pure class!

      And aye Liz g, first there was the potatoes.. then there was the popcorn famine.

    131. yesindyref2 says:

      @Tam Jardine
      Yes, it’s fun on the Express, and a bit of a doddle. Thing is you’re right on there, they’re being lied to too. Thing is we – and non-indy people – know more of what the score is, whereas all they know is what they’re fed by the Express, DM or DT and BBC – and other posters, some of whom are Scots. So they believe the Scots who are anti-Indy and virulently anti-SNP.

      I’m just going to straighten them out every so often with some facts, being nice and moderate about it of course, with just the occasional sting in the tail.

    132. Stoker says:

      WOS archive links for February 2012 now over on O/T.

    133. yesindyref2 says:

      We’ll have to wait and see what happens in the UKSC. Sometimes submissions from the QC are addressed point by point by the Judges, to reach the conclusion, and I’m hoping that’s what happens with Wolffe’s.

      There’s also a submission on behalf of the Lawyers for Britain – a short summary from the link below as the full submission isn’t available yet. The represent Brexiters basically. I’m glad there is one as now we have people and governments on both sides of the appeal, which means different arguments will have to be used, for people and governments – and addressed by the court. Now that might well broaden the initial scope on its own, from the point of view of Scotland having to express our people’s rights as opposed to the Scottish Government / Parliament.

      http://www.lawyersforbritain.org/referendum-article-50-case.shtml

    134. Thepnr says:

      I’ve posted on Wings for a few years as many of you know. Every opportunity was took by me to spread the Wings message for an Independent Scotland on MSM websites and face to face.

      Eventually some of us got together and we organised meet ups and a means of getting there for free if necessacery. Nobady need lose out. We also went public and organised stalls flying the Wings banner in Strathclyde Park, Arbroath and elsewhere.

      We organised nights out in Dundee, Glasgow, Edinburgh, Aberdeen and Helensburgh home of the nuclear weapons in Scotland.

      I was at all of these meetings or gatherings of like minded folk.

      Yet I’m called:

      “a self opinionated twat, who thinks that WoS belongs to you.”

      To the person that said that to me, I have never thought WoS belongs to me. I have always thought of WoS being a coming together of like minds and have worked as best I could to make that happen.

      We will only win by working together.

      Doesn’t take a brain to know that, there is no one to blame other than ourselves. Not the old, not the Yes campaign, not the young, not the English, not the SNP, not the poorest.

      If there’s any one to blame it’s ourselves. Do better next time maybe. By the way, I do have an opinion and no one will stop me from giving it.

    135. Liz g says:

      Yesindyref2 @ 12.02
      We might have missed a trix there.
      We should have crowdfunded our own intervention in the Supreme Court.
      If the Breixteers can get permission to be heard in theory so could a group representing the Scottish remainers.
      At the least we could have tried to ensure that the points we are hoping are in the Judgement are harder to avoid.
      Because I think the judges will do their upmost to do so.

    136. Cactus says:

      I second your twelve : fourteen Thepnr.

      Those.. Groovy nights, we’ve had so far around Scotland 🙂

      Many more to come, we go way back.

      Scotland, we’re finding our way.. slowly, but very surely.
      X.

    137. Ian Brotherhood says:

      @Thepnr –

      I’m playing catch-up and have read only a fraction of the comments btl on recent posts.

      Who had a go at you? Missed that.

      Knowing you, it’ll be water off a duck’s proverbial, and that’s something that the nastier trolls would do well to remember – the ‘regulars’ in this place come and go, sometimes for months at a stretch. But the site goes from strength to strength. None of ‘us’ are under any illusions about the significance of our opinions – they are worth no more or less than those of the next voter, but we use this place to state how we feel, provide relevant info we may have, and contribute to building the social networks Thepnr mentioned.

      Rev Stu has reminded us – many times – that something less than 1% of WOS readers ever comment btl. I don’t know if that stat has changed recently, but the fact remains that there is a hard-core of regulars who, whether they realise it or not, actually express what many other readers feel. Yes, it would be great if more ‘lurkers’ would speak-up, but they can’t be forced to do so. If that makes the regulars appear opinionated to some? Tough.

    138. Michael McCabe says:

      @ Thepnr. Well Said

    139. Cactus says:

      ‘KIN right.

    140. Liz g says:

      Thepnr @ 12.14
      What Ian Brotherhood said…..seconded

      Ian Brotherhood @ 12.34
      Wouldn’t bother looking back…was a pretty shit insult.
      Well for the standards of this site anyway.
      Or mibbi we are just spoiled!

    141. Tam Jardine says:

      Liz g

      Aye- not sure how the “Let’s stay together” relaunch is going to work. “Sorry for Brexit… let’s stay together” not quite as catchy.

      yesindyref2

      Talking about straightening folk out with the facts- having got into Merryn’s blog some zoomer has started up a correspondence on the piece about Nicola and Trump. Some kind of ex army UKIP blogger talking about the SNP being economically illiterate and the SNP being divisive… I must say I admire your restraint. I seem to have lost my gentle side and now I just want to rip folk apart on these yoon sites.

      And I am really quite a polite person in real life!

      Thepnr

      You are a total hero and I love the fire you bring to this site. Never change. This isn’t a petting zoo we’re involved in: it is the struggle to remove this dead hand from all our throats and those of our children and our grandchildren. And once we get rid of said dead hand we can create a Scotland that is a role model for countries throughout the world.

      Like I say: never change

    142. Ghillie says:

      Hi there Thepnr @12.18am

      Please keep on doing what you’re doing, works for me = )

      Great cartoon Chris! Poor old John Bull is looking pretty rabid these days!

      It might be a pitiful poke of sweeties and spitefully given, to be paid back with interest, but I know I can trust our canny Scottish Government to make excellent use of it.

    143. G4jeepers says:

      Petition
      Repeal the new Surveillance laws (Investigatory Powers Act)

      Over it’s target already, 108,114 & counting

      https://petition.parliament.uk/petitions/173199

      Soz if posted earlier

    144. Cactus says:

      Speaking of.. I think we’re due our next daynight out ye Wingers?

      Maybe early January 17.

      Glasgow, Edinburgh, Dunoon, Dunblane, Dundee, Inverness.. the Island’s..

      X.

      The Clyde Bar ken..

    145. Ian Brotherhood says:

      I can confirm that Tam Jardine is one of the gentlest souls it’s ever been my pleasure to meet.

      But…

      You know what they say about the quiet ones!

      🙂

    146. Cactus says:

      Hey, keep yer eyes at the top right of this or any page, running at just over 608 thousand reader comments to date..

      Reckon we can get it to 1 million by the time we’re independent?

      I do.
      X.

    147. Capella says:

      Hi Thepnr – I haven’t read all the comments (can’t keep up!) But whoever called you a ““a self opinionated twat, who thinks that WoS belongs to you.” must be pretty self-opinionated.

      I like reading your comments. So please keep on posting.
      Arguments are fine IMO, but insults not fine.

    148. Smallaxe says:

      Thepnr:

      If there are any monkeys involved,I’ve got your back.

      🙂

      Peace Always

    149. Thepnr says:

      First thanks for all the kind words from those that have actually met me.

      I understood totally that I wouldn’t be liked by being the nasty one that calls out the trolls and for a bit I did see that as a job that needing doing.

      Nobody wants the shite job!! Yet someone has to do it.

      LOL This job does need doing, just open your eyes. There are forces at work who want you to fail. Do not blind yourselves.

      It’s all our job by the way, just open you eyes.

    150. yesindyref2 says:

      @Tam Jardine “And I am really quite a polite person in real life!” Yes I know, met you at Glasgow Green.

      Back in the late 90s I was heavily into a a particular Usenet newsgroup, and totally lost the plot. Take 10 of the worst Wings threads for language and the rest, and I used the worst of those postings multiple times. Totally lost the argument which I had been “winning”. Had to go back after calming down and apologise, and to show how bad it was didn’t get one single reply “well done”, “good man”. Ho hum, took me over a month to get back any reputation I might have ever had. Mostly Yanks on that group, they don’t like that sort of thing. Not in those days anyway. Flames were usually done with style, kind of a competition for a good one. There were even a load of alt.flame.* groups for specialists.

      Still get the odd bout though, had a good few postings deleted on the Guardian arguing with mrbvb. Don’t even know why I bothered.

      These days I try to follow the rules of 1). You don’t have to reply. 2). You don’t have to reply straight away. 3). No really, you really don’t have to reply.

    151. Michael McCabe says:

      @ Thepnr A wee tune over in O/T For You.

    152. Liz g says:

      Thepnr @ 1.31
      Open your eyes… Bloody nice thing to say to an insomniac at the back O one in the morning.
      SMALLAXE ..tell him wull ye!!

    153. call me dave says:

      @Thepnr
      I agree with the others here. You bring a real passion to the threads you carry on. 🙂

      Just catching up from this afternoon.

      @Robert Peffers
      I know Queensferry to Burntisland area very well but I was in the dark about The Battle of Inverkeithing thanks for that. Jings!

      PS:
      She’s off to Dublin noo! 😕

      http://archive.is/LmbrL

    154. Robert Peffers says:

      @Liz g says: 26 November, 2016 at 11:10 pm:

      “Em… Robert I don’t think it will quite work that way.
      Well not in regards to the 1707 Treaty itself.
      The Supreme Court will probably not say anything about the Treaty that will confirm or deny how it functions,”

      Well Liz g, that was my first thought on the matter as well. I suppose that is the cynic in me.

      Then I thought upon it some more and cheered up quite a bit when I realised that it will not be the judges on the bench that will be setting the agenda but the Scottish lad who is bringing the matter before the Supreme court.

      He will make his plea and the judges must answer it. If their answer is not fully clear they will obviously have to be asked to clarify. If they do not then they risk a wrong interpretation made and that being challenged as you hint by going to the international courts or to the EU.

      ” … the best I think we can hope for,is some sort of confirmation in the Judgement that it’s a live document.”

      It has to be a live document as the union is still extant. Unless, of course, they claim that some Westminster made act has superseded it. That would really put the cat among the pigeons. That is where that we have just now could be challenged for there is no doubt that it is the country of England that has assumed to be the United Kingdom and is treating not only Scotland but also Wales & N.I. as underling countries of the country of England.

      Definitely NOT something from the Treaty of Union. This has been the case from the instant that Devolution came into force. Then we have the more recent EVEL that makes the English Country even more the superior treating everyone else as inferior.

      There is no doubt that the actuality is the country of England being legislated for under English law, funding itself directly as the United Kingdom with United Kingdom funds, deciding the level of everyone else’s block grants and then adjusting them in relation to English funding by Barnett Consequentials.

      They either rule this is NOT the Treaty of Union but a Devolution of sovereign powers from England and that opens the door to challenge there now even being a United Kingdom now. If there is no United Kingdom then how can the UK be the EU member state?

      The Supreme Court really cannot ignore those facts but only if those are placed before them by the Scottish Government’s legal Laddie. They really seem to be caught between the Devil and the deep blue sea here.

      If they deny it then the World can see the situation that really exists if they don’t, and the case is properly presented, the World still sees the situation that exists – and the denial that it does.

      There really is no way out that I can see but I’m not a lawyer. I really believe that the EU has suddenly woken up to the reality that the term United Kingdom means exactly what it says. Everyone knows the World at large thought that Britain, Great Britain, The United Kingdom and England all meant the same thing but will they still?

      I couldn’t count the number of times, or even the number of counties or states where I have had to explain to someone that I was not English and believe it or not that includes right here in Scotland.

      I pulled into one of those Highland Viewpoints with my wee motorhome late of an evening. I originally only stopped to let the wee dog get a pee. There was a little white van in the viewpoint and the occupant wished me good evening.

      He was French and a recently retired tradesman taking a well earned tour round Europe.

      He did not speak great English but somehow we managed to understand each other but he thought I was English. I do not speak French but managed to get the message out that I was rather indignant at being called English. On explaining to him that he was in MY country of Scotland and it was mot either England nor part of England the grin of his face had to be seen to be believed.

      His wee van was just that and had been his work vehicle and it had no living facilities except a tiny camping gas burner and a sleeping bag. I invited him into my vehicle for supper and he provide the wine. We got on like the proverbial House on fire and he told me he really was not fond of the English as they were quite unfriendly but he had noticed that as he travelled north the people got more and more friendly but had not noticed he had, that day, arrived in a different country from England, but he liked the people he had met that day very much.

      I’ll have to get off to bed as I’m struggling to keep my eyes open and the wee dog is nagging me to get to bed. She usually gets on the bed for a bit of a clap and pet before going down to her own night bed. I don’t mind her sleeping on the foot of the bed but she really never has.

      The wee bitch has always known just exactly what she wants and is not shy of letting you know what it is. A very self assured little lady.

    155. Smallaxe says:

      liz g:

      I said it the other night on O/T liz,the worse thing about insomnia is INSOMNIA.

      Peace Always

    156. Robert J. Sutherland says:

      Thepnr @ 00:14,

      Not to worry, dear chap. Sometimes things get more heated than is necessary, but it’s mostly because we all care passionately about getting free of the mess we’re currently stuck in.

      You are perfectly right, we will only win by sticking together.

      Elaine C. Smith was essentially saying the same thing in her excellent article in Saturday’s National:

      I was on the board of Yes Scotland and when you looked round the table you saw people who didn’t agree on everything putting the effort into focussing on what we did agree on.”

      There’s apparently going to be a conference of the Scottish Independence Convention this coming mid-January. All welcome. No more details given except that booking is via the Eventbrite website.

      The game’s afoot!

    157. yesindyref2 says:

      @Liz g
      Yes, I was thinking about that. Thing is it could get in the way of the Lord Advocate’s case, which is prime. Us claim-of-righters can wait our turn, there’ll be plenty to come.

      I was also thinking about Indy Ref 1 with Salmond, an easy going one, no major disputes, no court actions, just easy and happy, getting the vote from 27% to 45%, and 55% at times I think, but including a whole load of uncertains. Don’t scare anyone, it’s the Awakening, don’t want people jumping out of their cosy sleepy beds in shock and dismay and taking a turn against the whole idea. Which was right I think.

      Indy Ref 2 and Sturgeon. She don’t take no prisoners. Any nonsense and she’ll be straight in there. Which is right I think. I reckon the whole thing was planned from around July 2014.

    158. call me dave says:

      I’ve a dispute with the Herald going on at the moment:
      Seems I can’t access the whole article (s) although I have continued to subscribe to their online site. So no archives lately. 🙁

      Anyhoo! Here’s a snippet of a main story for tomorrow.
      ——————————————————————
      The leader of the UK’s largest trade union has launched an extraordinary attack on Scottish Labour leader Kezia Dugdale, who he accused of doing a “disservice” to herself and the party with her leadership.

      Unite general secretary Len McCluskey, in a dramatic intervention, also claimed the SNP could help keep a Jeremy Corbyn-led government in power after the next General Election, if there was a “progressive alliance” to oust the Tories.

      He hailed a call by Scottish Labour deputy leader Alex Rowley for the party to ditch its “narrow” Unionist ideology and return to its Socialist roots – as reported in the Sunday Herald earlier this month – as a “clarion call” and the “correct thing to do,” adding: “Alex speaks a lot of sense”.

    159. yesindyref2 says:

      @Robert J. Sutherland
      Yes, it’s good. Must admit to some annoyance when I read it “Mibbe we’ve had our feet up, thinking there was plenty of time, assuming someone else was going to do it for us” with my thought being “Mibbe you did”. And seeing a certain face behind the 5 at the front, one not seen for over 2 years, did piss me off. But hey, who cares, it needs a front face, while everyone else does the actual work. But no £100,000 a year salaries, get stuffed. And get someone to do a proper website this time, haven’t seen one that bad since the first efforts of a demon homepager – and that actually had content.

      Glad I got that off my chest, it’ll be the last time I almost promise, a bit honestly.

    160. Thepnr says:

      If you will ever click on a link of mine, make it this one.

      You will know why in a moment.

      http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OygsHbM1UCw

    161. Liz g says:

      Robert Peffers @ 1.41
      …..not expecting a reply tonight Robert….

      When I said confirmation that it’s a live document.
      I should have been more clear.

      What I meant was that we are not referring to cases years back and mostly before devolution.
      There are those especially in the media who like to give the impression that discussing the Treaty is all very well for a history class,but we have all moved on and it has no bearing on how the world works today.
      But the fact and it is a fact that Court’s are looking at it and mentioning it in their judgements literally weeks ago,sweeps that position away as a credible one.

      There is now no argument that the Treaty is indeed relevent.
      The Court’s have debunked one of the Union’s favourite myths and for once very publicly.
      And we get to ask why if it’s just an old historical document are the Highest (allegedly) Court’s in the land referencing it.

      I am glad you feel more positive than I do about what will emerge from the Supreme Court.
      I think the Judges will be very cautious about what they will put into their judgement.
      I think they will be very aware that they can’t do anything to affect the Union.

      Apart from the fact they haven’t been asked to.
      They wouldn’t and shouldn’t wander into politics.
      And the status of the Union is definitely a political issue.

      Don’t forget at this point in time Westminster is still the prime legislators and nobody is jumping up and down to protect the Church of Scotland anymore.
      It could be argued that based on the 2014 referendum result they have the authority to implement a new Act of Union.

      I had expected that to be what happened if we voted no and the SNP fell apart,thats what I would have done once I saw how close it was.
      So it’s not impossible to imagine that they might still try,using the Court Judgement to highlight the Treaty needs updating.
      Then the Court would have to apply the new one in any subsequent case.
      We have to keep this decision political.
      And we absolutely have to stay under the jurisdiction of the European Court’s.
      I don’t understand why some are saying that they want out of Europe more than out of the UK.
      Do they not realise that if we go out with Westminster still in charge,they are risking new law’s being written to prevent us ever leaving? Tis Bizzare right enough.

    162. Robert J. Sutherland says:

      yesindyref2,

      Hope you’re feeling better after that. =grin=

      I think the point is that unlike the last two years, indyref2 is looking more and more a serious prospect now, and we need to start organising in earnest, to be “match fit” when it does arrive. Not least because it’ll likely be a much shorter campaign than last time.

      But yes, a professional website and effective people (plural) to front the campaign are definite musts. One can only hope that appropriate lessons have been learnt from last time.

    163. yesindyref2 says:

      @Robert J
      Yeah, I needed that!

      @Liz g
      I don’t see how they could update the Treaty because it needs two parties to a Treaty, and both parties to agree to change it. The Acts of Union have been amended, and it would be interesting to thoroughly check the original one with England I found on a website, with the current one. I had a quick look side by side in two tabs and the two bits I looked at seemed reasonable, including with costs long gone, and another saying it would be changed later (e.g. Victuals from beyond Sea!). It might just be reasonable wording changes, who knows. Too much of an exercise for me right now.

      Original apparently: http://www.rahbarnes.co.uk/Union/UnionWithEnglandAct.php

      Current one: http://www.legislation.gov.uk/aosp/1707/7
      (you can click on Opening Options to Open whole Act).

      An interesting thing there I found was this – still in the current version “and lyable to the same Customs and Duties on Import and Export ”

      Mmm, I wonder if Fraser Whyte of “Meme-busting: whisky and the non-existent export duty” fame, is aware of that about Duties and Export in the Union with England Act 1707 – or “Act of Union, 1707 January XVI, M, DCC, VII.” as it was originally known!

      The export duty is zero, not non-existent. LOL.

    164. defo says:

      Thepnr says:
      23 November, 2016 at 11:40 pm
      @heedtracker

      “Often you really do talk a load of shite. Sometimes funny often not.

      Oh and I’d appreciate if you stop posting direct links please use archive.is like you already know how to.”

      Not self opinionated, or twattish at all, attacking and policing other regulars.

      Hey ho, now you’ve managed to garner a group hug, and not being part of the in group, all that’s left for me to say is goodbye.
      And thanks for all the fish.

    165. Liz g says:

      Yesindyref2 @ 3.44
      They could update the Treaty by having our elected representatives sign it.
      That would be our MP’s….who up until the last election were nearly all Unionist.
      This would have been nothing to do with Holyrood.
      Constutional matters are reserved.

      So yes I believe that because the 2014 vote was so close.
      Had Scotland reverted to type and returned mostly Labour MP’s and had potentially punished the SNP by not returning any.
      There would have been a New Treaty.
      It would have been sold as preventing uncertainty and as the clear will of the sooper dooper majority of Scot’s like the result proved wanted.

      Remember nobody expected the SNP to grow after a No vote.
      And think back to the propaganda in the lead up to the 2015 General Election.
      It certainly would explain Jim Murphy (as in their thinking not ours) Smith didn’t actually go through till after the election either.

      All speculation now ofcourse but it doesn’t hurt to imagine the what ifs.
      And as I said before that’s what I would have done if I wanted to secure the Union.

      Thanks for the link to the Act’s of Union they will indeed be interesting to read.

    166. yesindyref2 says:

      @liz g
      I need to get a life, or at least get some slumber.

      [redacted]

      Mmm, I did have a long answer to that, but as loose lips sink ships, I’m interdicting it until after the UKSC decision in January. Better safe than sorry.

      Night night, don’t let the bed bugs bite!

    167. Liz g says:

      Yesindyref2
      Night hun

    168. Ken500 says:

      Independence supporting writers might get more work if they stopped attacking the SNP and started attacking the opposition.

      Labour dominated Cosla at it again. Trying to use the Council election to attack the SNP. Labour Unionists called for Council tax rises. Now they are happening they want to deny them. Typical dupitious lying Labour. Compulsive liars always get found out and no one believes a word they say.

      Willy Young was blaming the SNP for the last LibDem/SNP administration. Willy a Young refused a Gift of £80Million to pedestrianise the City. The majority supported. Borrowing £Millions to destroy the City centre with a grotesque non mandated monstrosity of shameful ignorance. Destroying the city centre and causing traffic chaos, Spending £30Million renovation destroying an Art Gallery. Shutting it for three years. All totally non mandated.

      There is no provision for homelessness in the City. ‘Care in the community’ – prison. The Police are putting people in cells overnight with charges that cannot go to court. Wasting £Millions of public money. Essential services are not being funding properly by the Labour dominated administration.

      Education, social care, elderly care, drug rehabilitation etc not funded properly. Roads were neglected except in Willy Young’s constituency. A flurry of road repairs right before an election. Squandering money like there is no tomorrow. There will not be one for them. Corruption is rife. Most of them should be in jail. It is just appalling the waste and mismanagement. The corruption in the Unionist dominated Councils is rife,

    169. Ken500 says:

      Is Hammond still illegally bombing Syria. Or are the Tories now trying to love bomb Trump after calling him every name under the Sun. Scrambling for an audience. Trying for the great alliance of ‘special relationship’. After illogically spurting relationshops with their nearest neighbours. After all the nonsense. The Greens who made Trump President with their votes are now calling for a recount, along with poor deprived Clinton. The warmongering, greedy parasite who is responsible for countless deaths and the biggest migration crisis in Europe since 11WW. Along with UK and France. Costing £Trillions. The ‘special relationship’ to bankruptcy, death and destruction. The lying Unionist politicians. ‘Save the world’ They couldn’t even save themselves. Lying ‘psycho bastards’.

      The Unionist Football Club away to sue the Scottish Gov for the illegal tax evasion, corruption
      and criminality of the Club. Recognised by their Unionist UK Gov. Still the tax evaded funds due hasn’t been collected by HMRC. Not fit for purpose.The secretarisn, poor administration would be out the door for appallingly bad management. They are determined to waste even more public money and outrage the gerneral public. Not wonder Football is in such a State. Letting paedophiles and criminals run the Clubs with impunity. The terraces are empty because of the macho culture. If only it was only a game.

    170. Ken500 says:

      The ‘middle class, white male T/Union leader calls Labour ‘a middle class protest group’. Part of the problem. Are these people for real? The T/Unions financed the Labour Party. The illegal wars, the banking fraud, the tax evasion and the biggest migration crisis in Europe since 11WW. Mucking up the world economy and causing mass migration. Without Trade Unions cash they could not have done it. The ‘psycho bastards’. They collude with the Tories at every opportunity, with Trade Union support they fund it, to sanction the vulnerable, the weak and the sick. Leaving people starving.

      Labour voted with or abstained every Tory policies voted through Westminster. They attack the SNP at every oportunity. The SNP are protecting public services the old the sick and the poorer. The Labour (Trade Union funded) attack the vulnerable and have caused the worse migration crisis since the 11WW. The Trade a Unions enabled them to do it. Wasting Trillions of public money and killing and maiming millions of innocent people. The Trade Union leaders collude with Westminster to cause misery. T

      The Trade Union leaders have caused Brexit. Corbyn doesn’t support the EU. Corbyn is a leader of a Party whose policies he has opposed for most of his membership and Office. The Unionist Parties are so devoid of talent because no one with any gumption would join them. People join Unionist Parties for what they can get. People join the SNP for what they can give.

      Labour supporters have turned to UKIP in England. They voted Brexit. Trade Union leaders (in Scotland) do not even distinguish between the economic policies which exist in the UK. They are so incompetent they don’t even recognise how Westminster policies damage the Scottish economy. The different landscape of the UK Union in relationship to Democracy. They are part of the problem. Pushing a Westminster agenda which harms Scottish industry and prosperity. Either through sheer ignorant incompetence or malicious spite. Trade Union leaders can’t even distinguish between the policies of UKIP and the policies of the SNP. For irrelevant soundbites. Demographically opposed.

    171. Robert Louis says:

      Regarding some comments above by others. We don’t need the pretendy ‘supreme’ court in England, as created a few years ago by Tony Blair, to affirm that the treaty of union is valid, since it is blindingly obvious that it is. Without it, Scotland is an independent nation.

      Their is only one piece of legislation which provides Westminster authority on Scottish affairs, and that is the treaty of union, as agreed to by the separate Scottish and English acts of union. Without it, the United Kingdom ceases to exist.

      Of course many in Westminster like to pretend that the treaty is irrelevant or just ‘ancient history’, but that does not mean it is.

      The court case being pursued by the Scot gov, is much more detailed and nuanced than simply the union treaty, as it cites many aspects of the Scottish constitutional arrangement, including the Scottish claims of right of 1689 and later.

      Just for reference, the US constitution was ratified in 1788, and nobody anywhere, ever suggests it is no longer relevant.

      Let’s not fall into the trap of assuming what Westminster liars tell us is the truth. They would love to not have to bother with such things from Scotland – yet meanwhile, they themselves, cling to much older England only legislation such as the English Bill of rights and the English Magna Carta, implying (and in some ignorant cases, believing) it applies to Scotland.

    172. Ken500 says:

      Blair broke the terms of the Act of Union by introducing the London Court. Blocked democracy in Scotland. Restricted the right of the people in Scotland to appeal to the UCHR. Did not honour the terms of the Act of Union to a separate legal system forever. What Blair did was illegal. Like what most of what Blair did. It broke International Law. The right to self determination. The London Court restricts the appeals of people in Scotland to UCHR. Their right as EU citizens under International Law.

      The London Court rejected Tommy Sheridan’s right to appeal to UCHR, after his wrongful conviction by Blair and Murdoch. Blair/Labour helping Murdoch out. After Murdoch criminally and repeatedly broke the Law. Bribed public officials. Murdoch should have been put in jail and banned from licensed trading. A complete crook. Tax evading Non Dom who breaks UK/US Law. Inciting illegal wars and lying about migration to ruin the world economy. Thatcher illegally gave Murdoch right wing control of the media and denied it. They destroyed the world economy. Pariahs. ‘psycho bastards’.

      Blair/Brown should be put in jail. Along with Murdoch, Cameron, Farague, Hammond, May, Fallon and most of the Unionists at Westminster. Bush, Clinton, Obama et al in the US. They have destroyed the world economy and tried to destroy the world.

    173. JLT says:

      Yep! Doesn’t Brexit loom large. It’s no wonder Theresa has stated in an interview that Brexit gives her palpitations in the night.

      I have a suspect feeling that when she went for the PM’s job at the time, she had no idea what it was that she was about to take on. In other words, she saw the glory of being PM, but underestimated the giant tsunami of Brexit that is heading her way.

      As for Hammond …he’s kidding himself, just like the vast majority of Tories who believe a transition can be done under Brexit. Well …good luck with that thought.

    174. Phronesis says:

      It is a necessary tactic to address the Project Fear 2 campaign on an issue by issue basis ( the GERS article on this site recently was a very good example of that).
      Of course BREXIT has muddied the waters somewhat for Fear 2’s horror stories about Scotland’s autonomy and has shredded the remnants of any social contract with UKOK and Scotland beyond repair.

      Reforming the YES movement formally is a requirement as is the ongoing informed debate on this site with all excellent contributions that educate and inform,the survival of the National , the other YES supporting sites.
      Knowledge based on liberty,equality,rationality,truth that informs an attentive public will shape Scotland’s independence,new constitution .The SNP will deliver the message,the people will write the vision.
      Project Fear 2 will be reduced to arguing with its own toxic imagination,in a very dark isolated echo chamber.

    175. sassenach says:

      Ken500 says:
      27 November, 2016 at 6:39 am
      Independence supporting writers might get more work if they stopped attacking the SNP and started attacking the opposition.

      But with only one ‘indy’ newspaper, where do you suggest writers who attack these other papers would find their work? At the BBC, perhaps??!! Havin’ a laugh, I suspect!

    176. Ken500 says:

      The internet

    177. Breeks says:

      They could update or change the Act of Union for a new one if they liked, but new or old document, the same failure will occur when there is any encroachment upon Scotland’s sovereignty which occurs the instant it is “joined” with the wholly incompatible and irreconcilably different English sovereignty.

      The only new Act of Union which could be binding upon Scotland is one which recognises Scottish sovereignty cannot ever be removed from the Scottish people, cannot be encroached upon, and cannot be subjugated. Scotland cannot properly sign away its sovereignty any more than England can, and is not competent to sign any agreement which seeks to do so.

      The only practicable Act of Union which could exist between Scotland and England is ironically an EU membership type agreement where sovereign nations remain fully sovereign, but cooperate on common policy by mutual assent.

      It is the encroachment upon Scottish sovereignty which stymies the 1707 Act of Union, not what the Act says, does, or fails to do, nor indeed the age of the document. The only way to amend the Act of Union and make it binding is to recognise and affirm that Scottish sovereignty is sacrosanct, which is tantamount to a Declaration of Independence by proxy.

      The alternative is to ignore the truth, ignore the law, ignore the principles of sovereignty, and have a nation’s population duped into believing that they are subject to the greater sovereign authority than they properly are. If you can pull that off, then you have the United Kingdom. The Great Rook and Rule Swindle!

    178. Hamish100 says:

      If the SNP do wrong we have a duty to criticize. For goodness sake we have no wish to copy the labour party/ RMT style of politics of old! Tories are fighting over Brexit.
      Liberals who are they? The Greens attack the snp at each turn and I for one would ask them if they wish to close Grangemouth over their attack on anything linked with oil and gas? At the same time they use their ipad’s, PC’s and use oil based products every hour. Maybe Patrick Harvie and co walking about in hessian sacks and grass shoes would be less hypocritical.
      For me I’ll criticise all parties and none. While I am on there are too many snp candidates for next years elections being “selected by certain MSP’s in order to control Local Authorities. My view — be free to criticize!!

    179. Ken500 says:

      The MSM just stoops even lower and lower. It is just impossible. They are destroying the world economy.

    180. Ken500 says:

      If you criticise the SNP ultimately the Scottish economy and Independence is damaged. Cut off your nose to spite your face. United you stand divided you fall. Absolutely. Against the massed opposition. It is a luxury that cannot be afforded in this desperate position. It is not a liberty, it is anti democratic.

    181. Tam Jardine says:

      defo

      sorry if you feel that way. I have met Alex on many occasions and I can vouch that he is a good man and an intelligent man. There is not a person on here that doesn’t speak shite from time to time- not thepnr, not Stu, not me and not you.

      When people have been responding to each other for years of course there are friendships that build up and people get each others back… that is human nature. If you want to think that is some kind of clique- then cliques exist in every family, workplace and boozer in the land.

      Anyway- independence is vastly bigger than me, you and thepnr so please don’t let some harsh words get in the way. We are all on the same side. Please don’t give up posting on the site.

    182. frogesque says:

      If there is an Act of Union 1707 then there is a United Kingdom of two equal parties.

      If the Act does not exist then there are two separate, ununited, disunited Kingdoms, one of which is Scotland.

      How difficult is it?

    183. heedtracker says:

      I understood totally that I wouldn’t be liked by being the nasty one that calls out the trolls and for a bit I did see that as a job that needing doing.”

      I’m not a troll but am clearly getting it very wrong to be called one. So I’ll revert back to being a WoS reader, AVID! WoS reader, only.

    184. Bill McLean says:

      Robert Peffers – Listened to the introduction of the Battle of Inverkeithing u-tube video. The opening sentence contained so many inaccuracies I switched off. Who writes this shite? I have taken a particular interest in this battle where 760 MacLean’s were killed and I live quite near the site.

    185. Tam Jardine says:

      *chanting, awaiting hammers*

      Aum Namah Stuvaya, Aum Namah Stuvaya,Aum Namah Stuvaya

    186. Ken500 says:

      The Trade Union leaders mouthing off now. McCluskey could have stopped Blair. He could have stopped him in a minute. Withdrawn the funds. He didn’t. He was too busy lining his own pockets. Not caring about the weak, the poorer or the vulnerable, illegally killing and maiming millions of innocent people. Causing the biggest migrant crisis since the 11WW. Costing £Trillions. Then blaming the EU. Some of the Trade Union leaders are as culpable as Blair/Brown. They should be put in jail as well.

      The Union leaders/Labour Unionist just supported renewing Trident. An obsolete illegal weapon costing £100Billion while innocent people are killed maimed, sanctioned and starved. They are destroying the world economy.

    187. Bob Mack says:

      Is this hissy fit day ?

      You guys have opinions whether we! I, or others agree or not. Feel free to express them.

      This is a broad Church.

    188. Ken500 says:

      Good day. Mr Heedtracker

    189. mr thms says:

      Does the Scotland Act 2016 contain Brexit easter eggs?

      http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/brexit-scottish-parliament-legal-right-block-article-50-a7438246.html

      “The Scottish parliament may have the legal right to block Article 50 entirely”

    190. heedtracker says:

      Ken500 says:
      27 November, 2016 at 11:05 am
      Good day. Mr Heedtracker

      Love and best wishes to you all.

      I’ll be watching 😀

    191. ronnie anderson says:

      @ Tam Jardine Wise words, I didn’t jump to Thepnr’s defence as I hadn’t read the post, Alex can more that hold his own with anybody & is passionate in the cause of Independence + working to the benefit of this WoS site as he has done in the past & continues to do.

      There is no them & us on this site no matter how many Wingers nights out we have & those of us who have a better understanding of each other ( some things can be said over a pint that cant be said online) but the idea’s expressed in private come to fruition sooner or later that benefits the pursuit of Independence & enhances WoS site as a go to place for accurate information.

      Peace Lads N Lasses.

    192. Socrates MacSporran says:

      I remember being told by one of our history teachers at school – an old India hand from the days of the Raj – that one of the joys of the Empire was, it allowed the various Scottish regiments to be scattered across the globe, thus keeping them out of each others’ hair.

      It was apparently accepted by those in authority, if you allowed two Scottish regiments to be posted to Edinburgh or Stirling at the same time – civil war broke out.

      As a young sports writer, I quickly realised the veracity of this, as I started out covering Ayrshire Junior football – clan warfare with studded boots. It seems to be in Scotland’s DNA, if we don’t have the English, the Germans, or various “Fuzzy-Wuzzies” or “Towel Heads” to fight, we fight amongst ourselves.

      I think we are seeing this demonstrated on these threads right now. We are in the “Phoney War” stage of Indyref2, we are simply waiting around, for Mother Theresa to blow the whistle for things to kick-off, in the meantime, bored and fractious, we are increasingly fighting amongst ourselves.

    193. Scott says:

      I see Mundell will be on Politics Scotland I wonder if Brewer will give him an easy ride will check and see how many times he interrupts him.

    194. ronnie anderson says:

      @ frogesque Disgruntled would have fitted better in you post, equally isn’t something recognised by Westminster.

    195. Marcia says:

      mr thms

      I hope that comes to pass. You can just see the Daily Hate Mail’s or the nutter in the Express’s headlines………….

    196. Croompenstein says:

      defo and heedtracker please keep posting how will I keep up with teamgbukok toryboyworld rancid the graun stuff… 🙂

    197. Bob Mack says:

      Mundell, the Secretary of State for Scotland refuses to answer if he is fighting Scotlands corner to stay in the single market.
      Instead he wants the UK to have single market access.

      Secretary of State for Scotland ? What a laugh.

    198. Gullane No 4 says:

      Viceroy Muddle totally losing the plot on Politics Scotland.
      Yelling and shouting at the interviewer.

      Try to catch it, priceless TV.

    199. Ken500 says:

      Oppose don’t block Article 50. That is the Tory get out clause. There will have to be another GE. The only way for the Tories to get out of their impossible mess, is to have an election and lose. That might happen. The Tories have only 12 of a majority and have committed electoral fraud in 31 Constituencies. May is a crook, benefits from tax evasion. Wanting to be PM from age 18 is not a responsible qualification for leadership.

      Block Scotland leaving. Have another Indy Ref.

      Brewer getting his jotters. Getting telt before the Contract runs out.

    200. Ken500 says:

      Brewer admits he doesn’t understand. What is he doing there?

    201. Grouse Beater says:

      Frogeqsque: “If there is an Act of Union 1707 then there is a United Kingdom of two equal parties.”

      The Act of Union contains 25 Articles applicable for life if 1707, not life in the 21st century. Nowhere does it say the Articles are law in perpetuity, immune to alteration or withdrawal.

      The document doesn’t wipe out the two nations that signed it, otherwise you’d not be able to find England on any map, let alone Scotland.

    202. John H. says:

      I hope you don’t stop posting comments here heedtracker. I find your comments often informative and always entertaining.

    203. Dr Jim says:

      Watch as David Mundells head bursts like a giant plook live on TV as he struggles to find the words to say nothing

      Watch as Fiona Hyslop tells Gorden Brewer he’s offensive live on TV as she forgot to add the words “little twerp”

      Watch as Gorden Brewer tries to retrieve the situation and his reddening face by saying in his best sarcastic tone he doesn’t understand, and by the end of the program the red had not subsided enough to hide his anger so much so he complained to an unknown Yoon scribbler

      Watch as Ian McWhirter struggles to prevent the fencepost he sits on from making it’s way further up his cavity

    204. Robert Peffers says:

      @Liz g says: 27 November, 2016 at 2:40 am:

      ” … There are those especially in the media who like to give the impression that discussing the Treaty is all very well for a history class,but we have all moved on and it has no bearing on how the world works today.”

      No Liz g you were clear but the thing I was attempting to get across is that a treaty, any treaty, remains live until all the partners in that treaty agree it has ended.

      Not only that but if the original treaty setup forms a new set of rules and introduces new partners then all the original parties to the treaty must agree to the new rules. Because the new setup is changing the fundamental agreement.

      Remember that it is legally the people of Scotland who are one of the equally sovereign partners and the Queen of England, via her legally delegated parliament, who are the only other legal partner. Her Majesty is not a sovereign monarch in Scotland which is why Scots monarchs are titled Queen/King of Scots and NOT King/Queen of Scotland. Whish, of course beggars the questions, “Why is the current monarch titled Queen Elizabeth II”? and, “Why is she called Queen of the United Kingdom when she is not legally Queen of Scotland”?

      Yet the United Kingdom of today is factually run by the country of England, which is now officially calling itself the United Kingdom, (as claimed by no less an official government spokesperson as The Secretary of State for(?), Scotland), and Westminster is acting as the dominant master country of England who has unilaterally relegated her former equally sovereign partner Kingdom of Scotland to being just another of the English Kingdom’s annexed countries from when the rule of law of only the sovereign monarchical England, Wales and Ireland was Devine Right of Kings but that of the Kingdom of Scotland, even today has not legally followed that form of law since 1320.

      Let me attempt to explain that with an easy to grasp example. First thing is the Treaty of Union is that special case of being a, “bipartite agreement”. That makes it exactly like the best known form of a bipartite agreement, a marriage between two people of equal legal standing.

      Such a bipartite marriage cannot legally have a dominant partner but many marriages do informally indeed operate with one dominant partner but only by the non-dominant partners tacit acceptance.

      Statistically many such marriages end in the divorce court when the non-dominant partner matures somewhat and no longer is prepared to be dominated or the dominant partner oversteps the mark in the non-dominant person’s view.

      Then we have the matter of being a bipartite marriage and the dominant partner illegally introduces one, or more, other partners into the partnership. Such informal marriage arrangements are not unknown and the non-dominant partner may sue for divorce or, more than likely, the dominated partners gang up on the dominant partner and eject them from the household.

      The point being that in a bipartite agreement with a dominant partner the arrangement can only work with the tacit permission of the dominated partner. The instant the dominated partner does not agree to be dominated the marriage, one way or another, is over.

      So back to the Treaty of Union – historic records show it was factually a forced marriage in the first place and there is well documented evidence of that fact.

      Then there are the unionist claims and actions made after the partition of Ireland. They claim that a new kingdom was added to the United Kingdom Union when in fact it was only the added name of the remaining part of the former already English annexed Kingdom of Ireland.

      As the Kingdom of Ireland was ceded to the crown of England in 1542 by the Crown of Ireland Act then Northern Ireland remained part of the Kingdom of England in both 1707 and 1800/1.

      However neither Northern Ireland, nor the Principality of Wales, were new kingdoms joining the Union because both were already part of the Kingdom of England that signed the treaty of Union in 1707, and thus were already part of the bipartite United Kingdom from its birth in 1707.

      So Northern Ireland was not a new kingdom and the 1800/1 treaty only made a change of title as it was obviously incorrect to call the original United Kingdom, “The United Kingdom of Great Britain”, because Ireland is not part of the island of Great Britain.

      So all Ireland was part of the Kingdom of England since 1542 and Northern Ireland only became a separate part of the whole Irish state when Southern Ireland became a republic.

      It was actually like the Kingdom of England calling a bit of itself a new Kingdom. This was the point where the propaganda began to brainwash everyone that the Union was between countries and not as the title and treaty proves, as between kingdoms.

      I’ll not take the analogy further for it should now become clear that the devolution setup is no more than an extension of the simple change of the title to take account that the original title of, “The United Kingdom of Great Britain”, was an error because Ireland was not part of Great Britain and excluding it was not only insulting but legally wrong.

      So the question remains, where is the legislation that took the original bipartite union from being a union of two kingdoms to the present setup of one dominant country calling itself the United Kingdom and treating everyone else as their underlings? The proof of that pudding is the enactment of EVEL.

      You cannot have English, (the country), votes for English laws in a marriage of only two Kingdoms.

      Conversely, if the Treaty of Union no longer applies, then just when did The Kingdom of Scotland, and her legally sovereign people, either agree to opt out of the marriage or agree to become just one more of the English countries subservient underlings or possessions?

      It is not until the full realisation that devolution of Westminster powers to the other three countries dawns on you that you realise as fact that we now have the country of England, calling itself the United Kingdom, legislating for itself under EVEL as the country of England but funding itself directly as the United Kingdom and devolving its assumed country of England powers as the United Kingdom to three underling countries and one of those countries is legally the only equally sovereign kingdom under the Treaty of Union.

      This, of course, beggars the question, “When, exactly, did the Westminster parliament legislate that as law and when, exactly did the legally sovereign people of Scotland get asked if they agreed to these changes? Note that during that time there was a Scottish Claim of Right signed by, among others, Donald Dewar, Gordon Brown and Alistair Darling – and, with a few exceptions, every sitting MP. MSP and MEP from Scotland.

    205. Flower of Scotland says:

      @Thepnr.

      Just managing to catch up with the comments.

      I’ve met you. Please carry on exposing trolls. I’ve got your back too!

    206. Valerie says:

      Dr Jim @12.26
      Well summarised.

      How many times did Brewster ask the completely inane question – will you not have a referendum until the polls show favourably?

      Does the guy know how stupid he sounds?

      No, Gordon, we will wait until the polls are shite, and call a vote.

    207. Hamish100 says:

      Well done to Fiona Hyslop on PS. Brewer flustered because he was out-thought and challenged on his knowledge (lack of it). Also Fiona managed to undercut BBC Scotland by complaining that they had failed to report on the recent nations meeting in Wales.

      More of the same please. Attack best form of defence.

      As for Mundell – he shows up every week proving that he can be a bigger twat each week. England wont give up the fishing and agricultural budgets post brexit– are you listening fishing fraternity?

    208. frogesque says:

      @Grouse Beater 12.09.

      I thought a Law was in perpetuity until either repealed or amended. Murder was murder way back when. The penalties and some definitions may have changed but it’s still murder today.

      Simplest example is the Pound. The common currency was decreed by James vi/i, my pound is still worth the same no matter which part of the present UK I visit.

    209. Marker Post says:

      The best quote from the McCluskey in the Herald story has got to be:

      “The issue with the Union, the UK, is not uppermost in my mind. What is though, is the solidarity with workers whether it’s in Glasgow or Grimsby.”

      It’s a perfect retort to the guff that Lamont first spouted during the referendum, and repeated ad nauseam by Kezia Dugdale, about Labour being unionist in order to retain solidarity with their comrades in the rest of UK.

    210. Ron Maclean says:

      Fiona Hyslop did very well against Gordon Brewer today. I hope that standard is maintained.

    211. carjamtic says:

      Ready,Steady….

      Running with clenched fists,is never a good idea,your shoulder tense,muscles ache,you tire more quickly,when you are a long distance runner you need to relax,(pretend you have an egg in the palm of each hand….do it).

      A silent starting pistol has been fired (in yoonsville),they aim to gain an advantage by sprinting ahead while we,stand around,at the start line,gelling our hair,Yes, we know they doing it all wrong,with their angry clenched fists and shouty voices,but we cannot allow them too much of a lead.

      Unclench your fists,wipe away your snotters and stop posing,nobody ever,looked ‘cool’ running a marathon.

      You’ll have had your ‘stitch’,your quick pee in the bushes,now put one foot in front of the other,stop worrying about looking like a prick,just accept it,(at times we all look like pricks (no exceptions)….Go….we have ground to make up,but mind,relax,there is a race to be won and it’s a long and winding road.

      #soundslikeaprickgetoutofthewayit’smyshot

      P.S. Nice Chris,looks like John Bull has stopped the pretence and gone full Jack the Kipper. 😉

    212. Robert Peffers says:

      @Ian Brotherhood says: 27 November, 2016 at 12:34 am:

      “Yes, it would be great if more ‘lurkers’ would speak-up, but they can’t be forced to do so. If that makes the regulars appear opinionated to some? Tough.”

      I’ll endorse that, Ian, and add that I’d far rather debate or argue with a unionist advocate than with a regular indy supporting commenter.

      It must be abundantly clear to most that the regular commenters have opinions that mainly run on fixed steel rails and they are not going to be derailed unless they get irrefutable proof they have held a wrong belief.

      The debate or argument with the unbeliever will not only reveal the opposition POV but if the evidence presented to the non-believer can be proven by facts then the non-believer will, at very least, have pause for thought.

      The problem is that many, on both sides of the problem, are deliberately made ignorant of the true picture or are driven by their own perceptions of what they have been deliberately led to believe by the Westminster propaganda machinery.

      It will be a victory over that state-led union propaganda that will eventually see Westminster’s defeat. I also believe they have blown any chance they ever had to actually honour the terms of the Treaty of Union and treat their actual partner kingdom as an equal partner in the union.

      The closest any of them have ever come to actually offering equality is the mostly vague offers of federation. Even those offers were on the basis of regions of England with the faux Westminster Establishment still being the ultimate English heavy overlords.

      Remember that we not only fight that part of the establishment that is elected to govern but the civil service that we, the electorate, pay and the armed forces, security services, the Church, the Education system, financial sector and big, international, business.

      Yet today, with social media, we are very slowly winning the propaganda war for the first time in recorded history. Which is why it is good to have unionist commenters, but not trolls, posting on Wings. Note that Trolls do not care who they wind up but Unionists do care because they believe they are right.

      As we used to say in the civilian MOD, “Bullshit baffles brains”.

    213. Fred says:

      Missed all the “Tantrums & Tiara’s.” Has somebody been handing out fish & ah’ve missed it?

    214. defo says:

      Apologies to all for causing an unnecessary stushie.
      I should have taken my own advice to my kids about thinking before speaking, and the general rule that it’s best to say now’t, if in doubt.

      Heeds. I don’t think anyone meant you were a troll. By fuck, you must be a deep ‘sleeper’ if you are.

      I’m going to give it a miss anyhoo. All the bases are well covered by people better, and more informed than me.

      I was a poor replacement for the genuinely funny John King.

    215. Robert Peffers says:

      @call me dave says: 27 November, 2016 at 1:41 am

      “I know Queensferry to Burntisland area very well but I was in the dark about The Battle of Inverkeithing thanks for that. Jings!”

      Aye! They want to keep us ignorant and not just of the evil they meted out to Scotland but of the greatest defeats they suffered at the hands of the Scots in retaliation.

      I have not the time just now to do the full story myself but here is a link to the report of a Scottish victory that most Scots, (and Englanders), have never even heard the name of :- “The Battle of Old Byland”,

      http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ValGMOLG8S0

      Remember this is an English report and probably played down a bit. Use the several different names quoted of the battle to get more information.

      This battle was one of the many Scottish victories made against very much greater, in number, English armies in the aftermath of Bannockburn.

      Yet few Scots have ever heard of it.

      BTW: There were two Battles of Inverkeithing.

    216. Liz g says:

      Robert Peffers @ 12.36
      Stop Right There.. Before you go any farther…

      Smallaxe stop thinking that…
      .. I heard you..

      Anyhoo.. Robert we actually agree on most things..and I hope you take the view..as I do ..we are debating things.
      I am not trying to prove a point that demands total capitulation , that is not my reason for posting I just want to understand why people take the positions that they do…and welcome robust argument.

      So what I am trying to say is… this Court case won’t be satisfying to us (people who have read the 1707 stuff)
      While it should be,and,mibbi could be,I really don’t think it will be.
      There would be no one happier than me if this Court crafted a judgement that would be instrumental in ending the Union.
      But they are far more clever than me..so I am confident they will avoid it.
      It will in fact be more interesting to work out how much this Court try to stay out of politics.
      And while all that is indeed very amusing..real people..my people…are being hurt.
      So Robert keep posting..Sir.. I don’t agree with all you say..but can’t argue seriously with anyone who hasn’t read you.

      As for the wee Papillon…a X…and a biscuit from me!!
      Ma boy’s are munching OX tails right now…they and I don’t know why they are guaranteed to dream?????

      Apologies.. I am only just catching up on posts!!!

    217. Ruby says:

      Gullane No 4 says:
      27 November, 2016 at 11:56 am
      Viceroy Muddle totally losing the plot on Politics Scotland.
      Yelling and shouting at the interviewer.

      Try to catch it, priceless TV.

      Ruby replies
      I’ve got my finger crossed that someone puts it up on YouTube.

    218. Breeks says:

      I get a bitter aftertaste about all this sovereignty stuff, not because I disagree with any of it nor doubt we have the correct and historically accurate interpretation of the truth.

      What niggles me is the fact we have been here before – more or less. I am not endorsing the method, but back in 1952 there were those passionate enough about Scotland’s sovereignty and non-sovereign monarch that they were attacking post boxes which bore the ER11 insignia.

      http://archive.is/lwjDO

      Dismissed at the time as crackpot fanatics, it is the same fundamental truth about sovereignty which are still pursuing decades later.

      Not sure of the point I’m making, except that passion and knowledge of the truth is not enough to secure victory, or by rights we should have got to the essence of the truth 60 years ago, if not 300 years ago.

      I fear we are barking up the wrong tree to expect anything from the UK Supreme Court. If we have such a strong case to submit that the Supreme Court must recognise Scottish Sovereignty, then why is there no similarly weighted case pending in Scotland’s Court of Session where the verdict will pack a much better punch by establishing the undeniable precedent of Scotland’s legitimate sovereignty?

      We seem to lack a certain rigour and resolve in our method. If only these people in the ’50s hadn’t blown up letter boxes but taken a case to the Court of Session. I don’t know. Perhaps they tried. Perhaps they did.

      Doesn’t our future lie in having our Scottish Legal System declare the legitimacy of Scottish Sovereignty, and take that verdict not to the UK supreme Court as some tangential issue about Brexit, but to the UN and Internet iona Community?

      It isn’t a UDI, and granted it isn’t democracy, but it is a legally recognised benchmark of Scottish sovereignty, and tacit independence. For better or worse, the law is the law isn’t it? Or only when it suits?

    219. Dan Huil says:

      Anyone have latest news on the bbc misreporting Scotland signs going up?

    220. Breeks says:

      Internet Iona Community?

      Yeah, them too, but I meant International Community.

    221. CameronB Brodie says:

      defo
      Yourself and Thepnr are both fine in my book, if that counts for anything. We wouldn’t be here if we weren’t passionate and passion can be hard to contain. It’s in the past.

    222. Bob Mack says:

      @Breeks,

      Several dozen people knowing the truth is a gentle wind to disturb Westminster.
      Millions knowing the truth is a storm to shake their foundations

      Everything changes.

    223. Ruby says:

      @Ian Brotherhood says: 27 November, 2016 at 12:34 am:

      “Yes, it would be great if more ‘lurkers’ would speak-up, but they can’t be forced to do so. If that makes the regulars appear opinionated to some? Tough.”

      Ruby replies

      It could be the format of this website puts people off commenting. Lurkers may not have anything much to say except perhaps to thank a person for an interesting post or some other simple comment. Reply boxes under comments like they have on The Scotsman (spit) would perhaps help people to feel they weren’t just talking to themselves. A voting system would also be helpful.

      It might also help if regulars held back at little and allowed lurkers to post links etc. Could be lurkers are put off commenting because the comment has already been made.

      Then there is the issue of regulars being too clever!

    224. call me dave says:

      Brewer and Mundell etal from this morning.

      38 mins in on the time thingy

      http://www.bbc.co.uk/iplayer/episode/b0833d4b/sunday-politics-scotland-27112016

      All systems closing down for 2 hrs the footie! 🙂

    225. Ruby says:

      Robert Peffers says:
      27 November, 2016 at 1:48 pm

      I’ll endorse that, Ian, and add that I’d far rather debate or argue with a unionist advocate than with a regular indy supporting commenter.

      Ruby replies

      The problem I’ve found with a lot of Unionist posters is that a lot of them live in England and I can’t see the point in arguing with someone who lives in England.

      As for the hard core Scottish Unionists posters I reckon you would need to be an exorcist to get them to change their minds.

    226. Ruby says:

      call me dave says:
      27 November, 2016 at 3:01 pm
      Brewer and Mundell etal from this morning.

      38 mins in on the time thingy

      http://www.bbc.co.uk/iplayer/episode/b0833d4b/sunday-politics-scotland-27112016

      All systems closing down for 2 hrs the footie! ?

      Ruby replies

      Tut! Great if you’ve got a TV licence!

      How about recording it and putting it up on You Tube?

    227. Fred says:

      Anent the Battle of Byland, have driven up Sutton Bank which the Highlanders scaled, not recommended for wagons or caravans now. A glider field on top. Never met anybody who knew anything of the battle. Must have been familiar to Bruce though as his family were the lords of Cleveland.

      From the top of Queensberry Topping, the great view of the country was all formerly Bruce land & the Bruce’s did homage to Edward I for their English lands. Their tombs are in Cleveland Abbey I think, near Middlesburgh.

    228. Grouse Beater says:

      Frogesque: “I thought a Law was in perpetuity”

      A crude attempt to divert attention from the ill-informed and ill-formed weaknesses of your half-baked opinion

    229. CameronB Brodie says:

      Ruby
      I don’t think the Rev. is interested in reply boxes and voting systems, for functional, structural reasons.

      I hear what you’re saying about ‘regulars’ crowding out lurkers and would hate to think I am guilty of such. Balance is a tricky one to achieve on an open forum though, as it is in everyday life. 🙂

    230. Ruby says:

      Ken500 says:
      27 November, 2016 at 11:03 am
      The Trade Union leaders mouthing off now. McCluskey could have stopped Blair. He could have stopped him in a minute. Withdrawn the funds. He didn’t. He was too busy lining his own pockets. Not caring about the weak, the poorer or the vulnerable, illegally killing and maiming millions of innocent people. Causing the biggest migrant crisis since the 11WW. Costing £Trillions. Then blaming the EU. Some of the Trade Union leaders are as culpable as Blair/Brown. They should be put in jail as well.

      Ruby replies

      On the positive side Tony Blair was probably responsible for quite a few people voting YES in IndyRef1. Could even be responsible for the demise of Labour in Scotland!

      Weird that we didn’t hear much about the Chilcot Enquiry! That seems to have disappeared off the radar likewise the Tory election fraud and Post Truth Ruth’s postal voting shenanigans!

    231. ScottishPsyche says:

      Mundell huffing and puffing and fluffing his words,’..within two years of the triggling of article 50′- Snort!

    232. Tam Jardine says:

      call me dave

      Did you check out Mundell’s wee desk setup for the interview. The whole thing was brilliant- a bank of books covering one wall, a classy wee siller tray, a pic of Chuck shaking the Fluffy hand, another pic, this time of a pensioner pointing at former PM Cameron and the piece De resistance: a front page of the Eskdale & Liddesdale Advertiser. The headline: “Mundell makes Scottish History”

      Rather like scattering a few copies of Camus or Kerouac or leaving a couple of eclectic LPs on his floor before a girl comes round, Mundell has done his pre Brewer preparations.

      I don’t know if anyone can recall David Torrance and his bohemian bedroom. What are these tories like!

    233. Ruby says:

      CameronB Brodie says:
      27 November, 2016 at 3:24 pm
      Ruby
      I don’t think the Rev. is interested in reply boxes and voting systems, for functional, structural reasons.

      Ruby replies

      Is it such a big hassle to add reply boxes and a voting system?

      Surely if The Scotsman (spit) can do it when they are just about bankrupt Wings should be able to do it!

      Don’t feel guilty! Apparently guilt is a totally useless emotion!

    234. Ruby says:

      Tam Jardine says:
      27 November, 2016 at 3:34 pm.

      I don’t know if anyone can recall David Torrance and his bohemian bedroom. What are these tories like!

      Ruby replies

      Is that the one where he had his man bra on the floor?

      Now see my silly comment would have been oh so much better tucked away in a reply box don’t you think?

    235. Ken500 says:

      Please Mr or Ms heedtracker, please come back.

      You’re needed to cover the back.

      Pretty please.

    236. Fred says:

      anent the Bruce family tombs, they are in Guisborough Priory,

      http://www.debrustrail.org.uk/guisborough.html

    237. Capella says:

      Has somebody been having a go at Heedtracker now? I thought that was my job!
      Time Stu posted another article. That cartoon hatchet man is bad feng shui,.

    238. yesindyref2 says:

      Here’s a song dedicated to us all, I’m not sure who’s who but watch and listen carefully. There’s a few lurkers going by in the background.

      http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=E_57TZJMbrU

    239. crazycat says:

      @ Ruby

      No comment system is perfect, but one problem with nested replies is that you have to keep returning to the original comment to see if extra replies have been added.

      With the current set-up here, you can see the new addition, but may then have to search for ages to find out what it’s a reply to!

      This could of course be avoided by more use of blockquotes and/or mention of the time of the post(s) to which people are replying, if it isn’t immediately preceding. (You’ll notice that I am not taking my own advice here 😉 .)

    240. CameronB Brodie says:

      Ruby
      I think it’s because such features introduce a hierarchy to the comment structure, which might not represent the value of each comment. It risks burying insight under popularity.

      I might be completely up the wrong dreal though.

      Guilt cripples thought and action but it does highlight error in thought and practice. It needs channeling correctly to achieve positive change.

    241. Robert J. Sutherland says:

      Liz g @ 14:43:

      …so I am confident they will avoid it.

      Yes Liz, I tend to agree.

      It’s a constitutional minefield that could blow up with a vengeance. The whole thing has passed by default for 300 years, largely because the Scots passively accepted the situation for the sake of peace and quiet, and the English were always astute enough to not push their luck too far. (As happened back in the 1950’s when the Stone of Destiny was “retrieved” from Westminster Abbey, for example. There were no prosecutions, even though they knew fine well who was involved.)

      And we have now had all this “enemies of the people” shite in the English media.

      On the other hand, Article 50 is a constitutional grenade by its very nature, so collateral damage may be difficult for the learned judges to avoid.

      Looking at the case put forward by the Lord Advocate, para. 14 on its own pretty much destroys the UKGov’s case for avoiding the UK Parliament anyway, since it makes clear that if HMG won, it would have the power to take us out to the EU without even the fig leaf of a referendum.

      Not that Westminster’s involvement would be of any help to Scotland, given Corbyn Labour’s ambivalent and supine attitude.

      I’m not a legal eagle, but the Lord Advocate’s case does seem well-argued. It’s actually the legal equivalent of that cancelled BT campaign video, where the effect of the UKGov’s position is to take a cutter to all the cables joining Scotland’s legal framework to the EU.

      So it may just possibly be that the judges are brave enough to follow the old adage “if you can’t please anybody, do the right thing”.

      And if Holyrood then votes down the split and is subsequently overruled by WM, then the game is truly on…

      … which is why I can’t help thinking that that particular head-on confrontation will be avoided, somehow…

    242. Ruby says:

      What’s happened to Heedtracker?

      Surely he’s not following in the footsteps of his Slovenian girlfriend and having a tantrum!

      Get back here and stop being such a ‘Tomkinski’!

    243. Jockanese Wind Talker says:

      @ Heedtracker

      As per others comments in the same vein.

      Don’t just lurk, we still require the regular updates you provide on what your Slovene girlfriend’s been up to 🙂

    244. Ken500 says:

      The are moves afoot to bring Blair in front of another Commons inquiry/Committee? His right wing tax evading friends who protect him will probably vote it down. Why he has not been sued is a mystery.

    245. Bob Mack says:

      I want Heedy and Defo and everybody who stopped posting back on here. Like the song says “You are the wind beneath my (our)Wings”. We fly together or not at all.

    246. Lollysmum says:

      Robert J Sutherland & anyone else interested in the article from Elaine C Smith about kick starting the Yes movement

      Here’s the link for Scottish Convention on January 14th in Glasgow.
      https://www.eventbrite.com/e/scottish-independence-convention-presents-build-policy-strategy-movement-tickets-28451446041

      Got my tickets a couple of weeks ago. See you there 🙂

    247. Ruby says:

      crazycat says:
      27 November, 2016 at 3:49 pm
      @ Ruby

      No comment system is perfect, but one problem with nested replies is that you have to keep returning to the original comment to see if extra replies have been added

      Ruby replies

      Would that be such a terrible thing to have to do? 🙂
      Do you not have a Magic Mouse?

      You got any suggestions on how to encourage lurkers to comment?

    248. Ruby says:

      crazycat says:
      27 November, 2016 at 3:49 pm
      @ Ruby

      This could of course be avoided by more use of blockquotes and/or mention of the time of the post(s) to which people are replying, if it isn’t immediately preceding. (You’ll notice that I am not taking my own advice here ? .)

      Ruby replies

      Ah but then you would have to SCROLL BACK to find the original post!

      How about we just forget about the lurkers?

    249. Robert J. Sutherland says:

      Grouse Beater @ 15:16,

      “Play the ball, not the man.”

      If you have a case to make, put it before us.

      Gratuitous insults we can do without, thanks. Have we not seen enough of those this last day or two…?

    250. Bill McLean says:

      Take heed “Heedtracker” and get back in the game pronto! And to everyone who cares for Scotland’s future – KEEP THE HEID!

    251. Robert J. Sutherland says:

      Ruby @ 15:49:

      You got any suggestions on how to encourage lurkers to comment?

      The most obvious one is to treat them with kindness, at least until it’s obvious that they are just time-wasting trolls.

      And by setting a decent example among ourselves so it’s positive discussions over issues and not just a raging bear-pit of bruised egos.

    252. Robert Peffers says:

      Not seen anyone refer to this headline but may have missed it as I’m very busy and tied up in other things just now:-

      http://www.msn.com/en-gb/news/uknews/pressure-mounts-on-theresa-may-to-cancel-scheme-that-offers-free-tv-licenses-to-over-75s/ar-AAkNKNJ?li=AAdeCd7&ocid=spartandhp

      Tories are pressurising Ms May to remove the over 75’s free TV licence fee concessions.

      I think the YooKay Government finances are a lot closer to collapse than they have as yet admitted to the electorate.

      Failing care system, English NHS broken, the United Kingdom in England is about to go under – or so it seems.

      Could we get the chance of a snap general election soon?

      I always suspected there was more to Cameron’s resignation than met the eye for he was not the type to feel honour bound to resign as he had no honour to begin with.

    253. CameronB Brodie says:

      carjamtic @1:33pm
      Exactly, full commitment and snaughters is what wins. Keeping the heed helps though. 🙂

    254. frogesque says:

      @Grouse Beater 5.16

      Probably my bad and I haven’t put my point very well ani freely admit I’ m no legal expert. Who is?!

      What I was trying to say initially was that if there is no Act of Union then the UK can’t exist and there would only be the two separate kingdoms, Scotland being one of them. Therefore England could not dictate to us.

      If there is an Act of Union then it is a Union of equal partners

      England and its nether regions can’t have it both ways.

      This Constitutional stuff is fell complicated, I have it wrong then I apologise, trust me, we are all on the same side.

    255. Flower of Scotland says:

      I love this site and try to read all the comments every day. I don’t comment much because this site is difficult with an iPad.

      To answer anything, I have to sign in everytime I comment.

      But hey,ho you are all so good I’m happy just to read, copy and post to Facebook and Twitter.

      Don’t stop doing what you’re doing!

    256. liz says:

      Len McCluskey’s full of mince.

      They always try and get us with their internationalist nonsense.

      They don’t seem to realise when he talks about Glasgow and Grimsby that he doesn’t give a toss about places outside the UK-not so much international and more like British national

    257. Ken500 says:

      @ grotesque

      Your post was misunderstood. Other folk got the message of what you were meaning.

      It can’t be have it both ways. Either if no Union exists. Scotland then by definition is Independent. Or it is a fair and equal Union based on terms of the Act of Union, which guaranteed Scotland being treated equaly, It is not. Westminster policies are extremely wrong for Scottish/world economy. The lies, secrecy and deceit. Hidden under the Official Secrets Act.

    258. CameronB Brodie says:

      Len McCluskey probably believes space is the same as place. It’s a Marxist-Trot./colonialist thing.

      @Len McCluskey
      If you are an internationalist Mr. McCluskey, then you must recognise Scotland as a distinct nation and respect the human rights of Scots. What about it, will your internationalism allow you to support Scottish independence?

      “The right to development is an inalienable human right by virtue of which every human person and all peoples are entitled to participate in, contribute to, and enjoy economic, social, cultural and political development, in which all human rights and fundamental freedoms can be fully realized.” (Article 1.1, Declaration on the Right to Development)

      “The human right to development also implies the full realization of the right of peoples to self-determination, which includes, subject to the relevant provisions of both International Covenants on Human Rights, the exercise of their inalienable right to full sovereignty over all their natural wealth and resources.” (Article 1.2)

      http://www.un.org/en/events/righttodevelopment/pdf/rtd_at_a_glance.pdf

    259. yesindyref2 says:

      Pretty good discussion really, about posting, not posting, attacks, different opinions, voting on posts, and all that stuff. I post on the Herald, and for a long time you could see who had upvoted you, and I studied this for my own postings, and also others. I knew the posters, and their stance from their own postings, and have a good memory for it.

      For most postings it was just about all pro-indy posters who upvoted me. But when it came to social issue articles that had nothing to do with Indy, it could be a mix, and even include the strongest of the NO voters. This was interesting, there’s no point preaching to the already converted.

      So I became more critical of the SNP and even YES. Quite genuinely, they’re not perfect, and I noticed I got more upvotes from the NO voters – but still a load from YES voters though not as many. But I also got upvotes from the DKs – don’t knows. Over time though I got less upvotes from the YES supporters. Now if I post “Independence is brilliant” I might get say 30 upvotes, whereas if one of the always on message posters said the same, they’d get 60 upvotes. It’s a price to pay, and I’m aware of it. It not only doesn’t worry me, I’m pleased, because it means I’m getting it about right.

      I emphasise my posts are genuine, I don’t lie. Now you don’t see who it is upvotes you, but you can see the totals. In a thread about McCluskey there’s a good poster who’s more “on message” than me who’s got 59 upvotes, I get 15. But it’s those who’ve replied and discussed in reply to my posting that’s interesting because it’s NO2 voters, including one or two NO2 voters who could move over, and DK2s – as well as YES2 voters. What I posted was this:

      I think there’s quite a lot of NO voters who get annoyed at being called “Unionists”.

      And of course “Yoon” is just a silly insult, hardly likely to win hearts and minds.”

      I think it needs “warmers” who help to open minds, as well as “closers” who persuade the YES vote. It needs BOTH. I’m the former, but that means a lot of times I’m going to be posting off-message. Genuinely. Tough shit.

    260. Conan the Librarian™ says:

      @ Ruby
      One good thing about the old Scotsman website was its numbering. It engendered the short-lived sport of ‘hunnerbagging’ and made it very easy to track comments and replies.

    261. frogesque says:

      @Ken500 5.01

      Lol @ grotesque! Could be right enough though!

    262. crazycat says:

      @ Ruby at 4.08

      I’m not aware of having a Magic Mouse. I don’t often use a mouse at all. What does a magic one do that ordinary ones don’t?

      @ Ruby at 4.13

      Re: scrolling back – that’s why I said no system’s perfect. When I don’t have much time, I don’t want to be going back into older comments repeatedly anyway, regardless of how or why. I know this means I may miss things, but since I occasionally see evidence of posts appearing hours later, that were definitely not there the first time I looked, and are not new posters having to be moderated, I’m presumably missing lots regardless.

    263. Robert Peffers says:

      @yesindyref2 says: 27 November, 2016 at 3:44 am:

      Your link to rahbarnes stuff used to come up top if you googled for the text of the Treaty of Union and when you got to the site it had the treaty and both acts and quite a bit more. Being curious by nature I investigated who the guy was and there were lots of results but the one that interested me was his links to English history societies.

      I often referred folks to his treaties and act pages and then one day they just vanished. However they were already archived.and you will find them all here :-

      http://archive.is/www.rahbarnes.demon.co.uk

      Hope that helps.
      frae – Auld Bob.

    264. yesindyref2 says:

      @Robert Peffers
      Thanks, that’s great, I bookmarked the link. It’s surpisingly (or not so surprisingly) hard to find the original texts online.

    265. frogesque says:

      @yesindyref2 5.03

      I agree, yoon is well past its usefulness, as is the term cybernat or its variants.

      Slugging out insults helps no one and turns waverers off such that they may just stay with the status quo than make, what for some, would be a huge leap of faith however tempting the thought of freedom.

      during ref1 I talked at some depth with some English friends who had moved to Scotland. They are good generous folk, well educated and I know they voted NO. Fairly certain at least one voted SNP at the GE and, being internationalist, pety sure they would have been STAY. They are open to a YES persuasion in a Ref2.

      To insult them and others like them would undo all their journeys. It may be less obvious but soft sell works and is far less likely to regress. We only need to convert 5% NO to Yes. They are are our target audience. The young by and large are for Indy, the elderly will vote with their wallets so currency, pensions etc. are important to them and need their security explained.

      Sashed flute players marching up a street near you are a lost cause. Don’t insult them, really get up their noses by ignoring them.

    266. Ken500 says:

      @ grotesque – predictive text. Sorry about that.

      Put it in correct 3 times. It must have still jumped – on submit. No pun intended. Not intentional. Happens all the time, New technology can be annoying. The spelling can come out quite bad. Even non intended. It can put folk off from posting.

      Now ‘Must slow down’

    267. yesindyref2 says:

      @Robert Peffers
      Typical website by the way for a demon homepager back in the days of the TAM – takes the effort and does the research. dha was a great resource, very helpful, site reviews. Demon UseNet posters too used to have a certain good mostly helpful style about them. Kind of an “early adopter” explorer one, considering the UK was well behind the US because of telephone charges – and .uk domain prices. The TAM was a great move forward, followed then perhaps by freeserve.

      Days!

    268. Ken500 says:

      @ grotesque

      Predictive text. 3 times in correct. Still came out wrong. New technology?

      The Scotsman -Herald banned and deleted Independence supporters. Censored.

    269. Robert J. Sutherland says:

      yesindyref2 @ 17:03,

      Speaking personally, I have always restricted my use of “Unionists” to those who actively support the continuation of the Union, and “yoon” to that subset of them who are mindless propagandists.

      But I don’t think I’m in any way unique in that. Just calling a spade a spade.

      That is definitely not the same thing as a (former) “no” voter. Isn’t that fairly self-evident, though? We can only win if we convert sufficient of those people, as well as hanging on to every (former) “yes” voter of course.

      I believe we can, because there has long since been a majority of Scots who believed that Scotland would eventually become independent. They evidently already appreciate at some level that the interests of England (+) & Scotland are slowly and inexorably diverging.

      We just have to engage with those people and convince them that the time to make the break is now. Seems to me that the Brexit debacle is precisely the straw to finally break that camel’s back.

    270. Capella says:

      Re Google searches – I followed the 2008 US Primaries and election. First time I’d paid any attention to their electoral system. I discovered the many ways of cheating the system.

      Eric Shmidt was CEO of Google. He was a Democrat and ended up being appointed to Government by Obama. Some Republican bloggers found that their site URL no longer appeared on the first page of a Google search. Sometimes it wasn’t till page 40 or so.

      Google had apparently changed the algorithms to prevent people from finding Republican sites easily.

      It is very likely that Google searches, Wikipedia entries etc are managed to limit the ease of finding awkward material.

      https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eric_Schmidt

    271. Paul says:

      If i moved to England i would honestly not take part in their indy ref if they had one. I wouldn’t think it was my place.

    272. Tinto Chiel says:

      CameronB Brodie says:

      “Len McCluskey probably believes space is the same as place. It’s a Marxist-Trot./colonialist thing.”

      Yes, but how often have we had to listen to this pious nonsense from the so-called Left wing? It’s one of Gorgeous George Galloway’s favourite lines, apart from, “Does my bum look big in this cat-suit?” My experience is that this wonderful solidarity is always one-way as the Scottish branch factory closes and the work goes south.

      Unionists now are reduced to recycling tired old arguments which were largely refuted in the last campaign and have been unable to come up with any positive reasons for The Most Wonderful Union Ever, for obvious reasons.

      Petra: just taking a break and recharging for Indtref2? I hope so: like your comments but have just noticed you haven’t posted for a while.

    273. CameronB Brodie says:

      frogesque
      I hear what you say though I’m not convinced. The individuals you describe do not sound like “yoons”, they sound like they may be “rationally” minded and so persuadable to vote Yes the next time. They don’t sound ideologically committed to the concept Britain.

      Yoons are ignorant ideologues such as Hotherstall and Torrance, lost in a fantasy world built of ideology. Then there’s also the Loyalist yoons. They appear to lack humanity, so I’m not prepared to offer them any such recognition they so clearly don’t deserve.

      Yoons and Loyalists have crippled Scotland and many thousands have died prematurely as a result Yoonionism. Yoons and Loyalists lack common human decency. They are grotesque. 🙂

      Does it show that I loath ideologues?

    274. Robert Peffers says:

      @Hamish100 says: 27 November, 2016 at 10:15 am:

      “If the SNP do wrong we have a duty to criticize.”

      Where the hell did you learn the rules of proper debate, Hamish100? You do not win arguments or debates by accusations you win them by proven facts and logical conclusions.

      Yes we do all have a duty to correct any elected person’s mistakes but first you must establish a few things. The first is that they are indeed making a mistake and not just your personal opinion that have.

      The moral of that is first show that there was a mistake made. Then establish who it was that made the mistake.

      Here’s a typical example of that NOT happening and yet the lie that there was a mistake has grown more legs than a millipede.

      There was the myth begun by the Andrew Neil interview of Alex Salmond and in the interview Neil askes Salmond this question, (referring to EU Legal advice), ” … and have you sought legal advice from your own Scottish government legal officers”?

      To this day we hear the Yoons still claiming, not just that Salmond claimed he had received legal advice from the EU but that the SNP subsequently lied about it by claiming they had no EU legal advice.

      Now tell me Hamish100 how exactly can getting legal advice from your own SG parliament’s legal officers be construed as getting legal advice from the EU parliament?

    275. Ruby says:

      http://tinyurl.com/jdn62y7

      Peter Curran is a star!

    276. Robert Peffers says:

      @Breeks says: 27 November, 2016 at 2:43 pm:

      “What niggles me is the fact we have been here before – more or less. I am not endorsing the method, but back in 1952 there were those passionate enough about Scotland’s sovereignty and non-sovereign monarch that they were attacking post boxes which bore the ER11 insignia.”

      Oh! Come on! Breeks.

      No one here is talking about the sovereign of England’s title and no one, far as I know, is suggesting we take violent action about anything.

      What is being said, and proved, is that the whole concept of a United Kingdom went out the window a very long time ago.

      From day one of the treaty coming into force in fact. The stone cold fact today is that the union died long ago but no one has bothered to bury it yet.

      Like all dead bodies left lying around the mauks have been crawling out of it for a very long time.

      Sovereignty is a complex matter and originally stems from the belief that the Royals, (who became such my ruthlessly fighting their way to the top), were chosen to be the leaders by a supreme being in some nebulous place called heaven or paradise.

      Then the term began to mean the guys who owned everything including their underlings and, as things began to civilise, it became the basis of society. The Monarch at the top owned everything and me/she conferred lands and title upon his/her underlings but that meant the underling swore fealty to the monarch. The underling had underlings and they too had underlings until we get to the serfs or slaves who owned nothing – not even themselves.

      So sovereignty now means the legal right to lay down the law and that is where the law of Scotland diverges from that of England.

      We are not talking about letter boxes – we are talking about the legal right to rule the state, country or kingdom. The law of England, Wales and Ireland changed from the original meaning, (but only very slightly), in 1688 but had changed in Scotland in 1320.

      Which is why there is a United Kingdom. If the two laws had been the same in 1603 there would have been no problem because the Scottish King would have been sovereign in both kingdoms and just taken over the crowns of England, Wales and Ireland.

      The whole point is that the laws have not changed even yet and they cannot exist together in one kingdom and that is why they needed a Treaty of Union to bring them together. But England has decided it is the United Kingdom and has publically but at the same time it is dividing the rest of the so called as if the united Kingdom was four countries and England is the country in charge and the rest of us to be under English rule.

      So no one is plotting to blow up anything- just to say we are not putting up with the English lies and not recognising the Treaty because they have broken it.

    277. Smallaxe says:

      Wingers:

      Divided we Fall.

      http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=glDGAo9SIqs

      Peace Love Unity and Independence

    278. Ruby says:

      Mundell was a hoot!

      Re these powers he is claiming will be returned to Holyrood did anyone read an article in The Herald where someone was arguing that these powers wouldn’t come to Holyrood?

      I was trying to find the article without success.

      While search I did come across a Times article in which Scotland in Union want Nicola Sturgeon to set up a ‘truth commission’

      “This truth commission, a team of unimpeachable factcheckers, assembled on the basis of their independence and qualifications and respected by both sides, could be trusted to pick their way through the competing claims by the campaigns and to deliberate on who is being accurate and who is mistaken.” The Times

      Surely that is the job of the press. Are they saying that the BBC etc are letting us down?

    279. Stoker says:

      I’m attempting to post this for the 5th time. Earlier i posted the same message 4 times and each time got the message that i was attempting to post a duplicate comment. So, here goes, again:

      WOS archive links for February 2012 now over on O/T.

    280. Dr Jim says:

      Now they’re cancelling the over 75s free TV access (I refuse to call it a licence)
      Combined with the triple lock pension system removal and the winter fuel allowance removal my guess would be as soon as the pensioners find all this out (which will be mind numbingly slow but they will) and realise that as soon as next year they’ll be considerably down on their incomes depending on inflation, the tide will turn in favour of our (the SNP tells lies)Scottish government who told them so

      So far the media has avoided any splashes about this and have done their best to report this stuff in a whisper with nary a picture or quote in sight because they know, as do we all that penioners vote plus they are the most angry mob when their money’s affected, although the FM said that the winter fuel allowance would be maintained in Scotland from existing budgets (that’ll be heating tourists as well as health tourists now) the BBC probably wont report that fact

      It’s a fine United Kingdom we’re supposed to live in where old folk die of the cold, ex soldiers are charity cases, disabled folk have their help removed, children are hungry depending on foodbanks for a bowl of cornflakes and something hot to eat even when their parents are actually working, young couples can’t afford to rent a flat much less get a mortgage

      While Boris Johnson makes jokes about refusing to buy Italys Prosecco because he’s got plenty of Champers old boy and it’s even cheaper in the House of Commons bar by Jove!

    281. Ruby says:

      Ooops error in previous post should be while ‘searching.’

      Here’s a link to the ‘Scotland in Union’ ‘Truth Commission’ article.

      Did SLAB not set up a ‘truth commission’ during the IndyRef?
      http://tinyurl.com/jtuvmx4
      cont. from preview:
      “People are making decisions in elections and referendums, potentially with far-reaching social and economic consequences, based on competing ‘facts’ and contradictory information, not knowing what to believe,” said Alastair Cameron, director of Scotland in Union.

      He added: “Think back to our referendum two years ago: Would we be able to keep the pound? Would we be better off under independence or in the union? Was another oil boom on the horizon? Would the NHS be privatised if there was a ‘no’ vote? Would ‘the vow’ be delivered? Would a separate Scotland be automatically in the EU? “Both the UK and Scottish governments, and all the political parties, were participants in the referendum, and denounced each other throughout the campaign. With each passing week, the accusations of fibbing and exaggeration for political advantage grew louder, leaving the voters bemused and uncertain.”

      With many of these issues still hotly disputed, the group has made a submission to the Scottish government’s consultation on the draft referendum. The group calls for an independent panel of experts approved by both sides who would adjudicate on behalf of the Scottish people to provide “indisputable, unvarnished facts”.

      He added: “This truth commission, a team of unimpeachable factcheckers, assembled on the basis of their independence and qualifications and respected by both sides, could be trusted to pick their way through the competing claims by the campaigns and to deliberate on who is being accurate and who is mistaken.”

    282. Ruby says:

      Dr Jim says:
      27 November, 2016 at 8:03 pm
      Now they’re cancelling the over 75s free TV access (I refuse to call it a licence)
      Combined with the triple lock pension system removal and the winter fuel allowance removal my guess would be as soon as the pensioners find all this out (which will be mind numbingly slow but they will)

      Ruby replies

      http://archive.is/mM7bW

      They are hoping pensioners will forget which gov was responsible for the cuts.
      They’ll probably spin it & blame the SNP.

    283. Ruby says:

      Dr Jim says:
      27 November, 2016 at 8:03 pm
      Now they’re cancelling the over 75s free TV access (I refuse to call it a licence)

      Ruby replies

      The good thing about that is that they be able to brainwash the pensioners with their propaganda!

    284. Breeks says:

      No, that wasn’t what I meant to imply Mr Peffers, merely that there were Nationalists back in the 50’s who weren’t mere troublesome patriots but were throughly conversant with the nitty gritty details of Scottish sovereignty and associated protocols.
      If only we had listened and paid attention back then…

      I wonder how many other times in the last 300 years the issue of Scottish sovereignty has bubbled to the top of the cauldron only to be deftly turned back into the mix and silenced.

      More importantly, are we going to get it right this time, and actually make it count?

      I don’t see sovereignty as complicated at all. Perhaps that’s a failing but it’s true. Sovereignty is a bit like ownership. It’s ethereal, but real and absolute at the same time. It’s a bit like ownership; you own the wallet in your back pocket and all the contents there in. If it is lost, or stolen, even by your own stupidity, the ownership remains yours, and does not pass on to the finder or the thief who might enjoy possession of the wallet, but the true ownership will never be theirs.

      We have our heart set on reclaiming our sovereignty, currently possessed by another, but we have impeccable documentary provenance spanning 700 years to prove where that sovereignty came from, where it has rested, and where and when it has been misused. All that remains is to recover possession and have the legitimacy of our ownership recognised.

    285. Brian Doonthetoon says:

      Hi Robert Peffers et al.

      Re: the constitution and Acts from the 1700s.

      My son flagged this up to me on Friday evening, to be honest, I’m not sure what it’s actually saying and whether it still stands.

      I’ll apologise in advance – whoever put the web page together (no paragraph breaks) would probably be ‘killed with hammers’ by Rev Stu if similar formatting was posted here.

      I found it easier to read by opening the page in a new window and reducing the width of that window to a comfortable reading width, as the text shuffles itself to suit the width of the window.

      Here’s one short(ish!) quote from the page that I’m sure had (or has) some significance.

      “And further, upon the said death of her majesty without heirs of her body or a successor lawfully designed and appointed as above, or in the case of any other king or queen thereafter succeeding and dying without lawful heir or successor, the foresaid estates of parliament convened or meeting are hereby authorised and empowered to nominate and declare the successor to the imperial crown of this realm and to settle the succession thereof upon the heirs of the said successor’s body, the said successor and the heirs of the successor’s body being always of the royal line of Scotland and of the true Protestant religion, providing always that the same be not successor to the crown of England, unless that, in this present session of parliament or any other session of this or any ensuing parliament during her majesty’s reign, there be such conditions of government settled and enacted as may secure the honour and sovereignty of this crown and kingdom, the freedom, frequency and power of parliaments, the religion, liberty and trade of the nation from English or any foreign influence, with power to the said meeting of estates to add such further conditions of government as they shall think necessary, the same being consistent with and no way derogatory from those which shall be enacted in this and any other session of parliament during her majesty’s reign.”

      That’s from Act for the security of the kingdom
      1704, 6 July, Edinburgh, Parliament, at:-

      http://www.rps.ac.uk/trans/1704/7/68

      So, is the content of that act rendered obsolete by subsequent events?

    286. Robert Peffers says:

      @Breeks says: 27 November, 2016 at 2:45 pm

      “Internet Iona Community?
      Yeah, them too, but I meant International Community”

      Aye! Yon made ma e’en birl a puckle. I’m still laughing.

    287. Robert J. Sutherland says:

      Brian Doonthetoon,

      Interesting. It would necessarily remain part of Scots Law today unless it were explicitly repealed. Which could have happened either by the Act of Union 1707 itself, or by the power it gave (I think) the ensuing UK Parliament to subsequently do.

      But did they ever…?

    288. Brian Powell says:

      Noting that Labour run Glasgow City Council would rather have us bowing and scraping gratefully to the Tory Westminster Government for the City deals than for Scotland to take control of the revenues and resources that made the ‘largesse’ possible.

      The phrase, ‘oily, slimy creeps’, comes to mind.

    289. Robert Peffers says:

      Ruby says: 27 November, 2016 at 2:58 pm:

      “Then there is the issue of regulars being too clever!”

      Us!
      Too clever?
      Whit!
      Naw!

      Yer kiddin’?

      Richt!

      Alert – mibbie. Clever – naw!

    290. Robert Peffers says:

      @Ruby says: 27 November, 2016 at 3:04 pm:

      “The problem I’ve found with a lot of Unionist posters is that a lot of them live in England and I can’t see the point in arguing with someone who lives in England.”

      Hey! I’ve lived in England at times in my life. I even married an English girl once. Unfortunately she died far too young. The thing is the Englander posting today could be your next door neighbour tomorrow or have a holiday home on Skye. Quite amazing how many English accents you cam hear running things like coffee shops on Skye.

      “As for the hard core Scottish Unionists posters I reckon you would need to be an exorcist to get them to change their minds.”

      I have to admit it has been a very, very rare occurrence but I’ve come across hard core unionists who could give yon gadgie on the road to Damascus a run for his money.

      What is it they say “Hope springs eternal”?

      Ah! Yes it was Alexander Pope. I had to look it up – for once my memory failed me.

      “Hope springs eternal in the human breast;
      Man never Is, but always To be blest.
      The soul, uneasy, and confin’d from home,
      Rests and expatiates in a life to come.”

      ? Alexander Pope, An Essay on Man

    291. Robert J. Sutherland says:

      Breeks @ 20:17,

      I like your “ownership” analogy. In fact, we in Scotland have been passively allowing someone else to hold and use our wallet!

      But now more and more of us are wanting to have it back.

    292. Ian Brotherhood says:

      @Robert Peffers et al –

      Sorry I couldn’t respond earlier…

      It’s maybe also worth pointing out that many ‘regulars’ here have had their eyes opened to a lot from interaction with t’other side, soft Yessers etc.

      Just speaking for meself, I’ve changed my position on ‘Conservatives’ from one of lifelong all-out no-holds-barred disgust to tolerably mild nausea/annoyance.

      Where they usually fail (in this place at any rate) is in trying to defend WM and, by implication, the Eton Boys – beyond the pale for many of us, and that’s when reasonable discussion folds. If there are approx half a milion Tory voters in Scotland then they should/could form their own truly independent party. Sheer weight of numbers (as well as the demographic they tend to come from) suggests that they must have plenty of talented folk capable of representing what they believe in such a way that other Scots would at least listen – many of us simply will not countenance giving them the time of day so long as they’re acting at the behest of the Chipping Norton sort.

      Aside from that, I’ve met and listened to ‘Tories’ who were mortified by the behaviour of the BTUKOKers and would’ve gladly shoved McDougall’s tuba up his hole given half a chance. But they bit their tongues for ‘the greater good’. Now? Those same folk are having to endure Mundell and Davidson speaking on their behalf. Can any of us imagine what it must feel like to be ‘represented’ by someone like Adam Tomkins?

      *…minute’s silence…tragic tumbleweed passes in the gloom…*

      So, just personally speaking, that’s one thing I’ve learned from this place, and the broader social contacts and debate it’s encouraged, especially since Sep 2014. The shrieking nonsense we get from ‘Tories’ in Holyrood and WM represents the attitudes of the uninformed SLabber and quiet UKIPper more than any ‘normal’ Scottish Tory voter. If they would just get themselves sorted out then it would be possible to have a decent discussion about how to proceed post-Brexit. It’s about time they got started – the painfully long death-rattle from SLab signals the best chance they’re ever likely to have in Scotland, but they’ve got to finally sever ties with London.

      As Peter Bell observed recently (apologies PB, don’t have direct quote) it would be interesting to see how a Scottish Conservative party might fare if it made a point of ditching the ‘Unionist’ bit of their current full title.

    293. Hamish100 says:

      robert peffers @615pm

      You seem to be in a bit of a tiz. Read my comments again. Now explain to me what you are on about? It has no relation to my post.

      Cheers

    294. Robert Peffers says:

      Well done Fred, you are the first Scot outside of historic societies who knew the first thing about Byland.

      I don’t know if you know this but the Bruce Family owned land in what is now London. It was somewhere around where Scotland Yard was built.

      Which, Scotland Yard is so called because it was actually originally officially part of Scotland, (trick Question, though).

      It was the site of the Scottish Embassy in England when the two kingdoms were still independent.

    295. Thepnr says:

      I was to blame for this strange. I said Heedtracker could talk some Shite. I never said he was a troll. We are all likely guilty of saying something we rather wished we hadn’t.

      Usually a very rash decision and always a mistake.

      Definitely and heed tracker wings wouldn’t be the same without either of you. If I could take back the original comment that started this. I would.

    296. Thepnr says:

      Strange was meant to be stushie. Still getting it wrong.

    297. Stoker says:

      To accompany some of the previous comments:

      Pressure mounts on Theresa May to cancel scheme that offers free TV licenses to over-75s http://archive.is/V6Et5

    298. Fred says:

      “You always hurt the one you love, the one you shouldn’t hurt at all……..!” 🙂

      @ Robert, Scottish kings had to do homage for their English acres!

    299. Robert Peffers says:

      @Hamish100 says: 27 November, 2016 at 10:15 am:

      “If the SNP do wrong we have a duty to criticize”

      Nah! Hamish100. I read your post and my post to you referred to the very first part –

      “If the SNP do wrong we have a duty to criticize”.

      I suggest you read what I said – I point out that we do have a duty to criticise but that we must be very sure to check that they are really in the wrong and that it is not just the critics own opinion or perception of an SG error.

      There have been several regular posters, who I do not doubt are true indy supporters, who have made such criticisms in fairly recent weeks.

      Often what someone like Nicola does is not immediately clear until events catch up that we, the general public know nothing about, (and for really good reasons).

      No point of the FM telegraphing a surprise move and thus being too open. If you are attempting to remain one jump ahead of the opposition a leak to the public means the leak gets to all the public.

    300. Elizabeth Stanley says:

      The irony.

      I just got the you are posting too quickly wordpress notification.

      My third post in 2 years.

    301. defo says:

      I’m equally to blame Thpnr. Apologies for getting personal.
      We’re on the same side.
      Lesson learned.

    302. uno mas says:

      @ Elizabeth Stanley 10.04pm

      Third post in two years?

      YOU ARE POSTING TOO SLOWLY!!

    303. Elizabeth Stanley says:

      What I wanted to say was that I’m a long time lurker.

      Many of you have a much more in depth knowledge of Scottish history & law than I,so there is little I can bring to any discussion.

      I learn much from my lurking but feel I should add something too.

      However I’m a little reluctant due to a few spats that seem to arise sometimes when a thread goes on past a certain point.

      Seems the natives get restless for a new topic!

    304. Grouse Beater says:

      Frogesque: “This Constitutional stuff is fell complicated”:

      Explanation very welcome. I don’t comment much here these days, and can be out of date if dropping in on established discussions. Here’s mine: http://wp.me/p4fd9j-9QH

    305. Paula Rose says:

      I trust we are all friends again xx

    306. Ian Brotherhood says:

      @Elizabeth Stanley –

      Apparently, that message is about the site ‘as a whole’ receiving too many comments simultaneously. It’s not a dig at you personally. Happens frequently since the last major upgrade.

      Don’t worry about it!

      🙂

    307. Capella says:

      In the words of the Nobel Prizewinning poet:
      Take this badge off of me. I can’t use it any more.

      http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=m9k1_lfplBA#t=31.717363

    308. Thepnr says:

      @defo

      Cheers, I really do appreciate that. The last thing I ever want to do is put someone off posting on Wings such as yourself. Glad we have cleared that up.

      Ta.

    309. Robert Peffers says:

      @Fred says: 27 November, 2016 at 9:59 pm:

      @ Robert, Scottish kings had to do homage for their English acres”

      Now that popped a quote into my head but I have a strange feeling it was not an actual historic quote but came from a Nigel Tranter novel, –

      “Sire. For my lands in England I bend my knee – for my lands in Scotland I bend my knee to no one”.

    310. K1 says:

      Glad everyone made up, now…Heed were ur ye?

      Mon the heedtracker!!

      *hopes some toryUKOKGBbritfestjakeyyooneratigob hisnae kidnapped Heed…hmm*

    311. Golfnut says:

      @ Fred.
      The Bruce as King, never did homage for lands held in England, he also made his nobles and land owners choose between being landowners in Scotland and landowners in England, they couldn’t be both since it enabled the English king to exert pressure and of course bribe nobles by offering additional land. This held more or less until James the 6th moved to England, followed by many of his nobles, lands in England were awarded to Scots nobles and the seeds of corruption and threat were sown for the Union a hundred years on.

    312. uno mas says:

      @ Thepnr 9.41pm

      “The moving finger writes and having writ moves on,
      nor all thy piety nor wit shall lure it back to cancel one line of it, nor all thy tears wash away one single word of it”

      That was from The Rubaiyat which used to be on the corner of Byers Road and University Avenue in Glasgow´s west end. Smashing pub it was to.

      Don´t know where it´s from originally.

      Possibly some poem or something 🙂

    313. ronnie anderson says:

      @ uno mas Omar Khayyam I think ( finger writ)

    314. CameronB Brodie says:

      @Alastair Cameron (Scotland in Union)
      You can’t get much more factual than the principles of contemporary social science and the UN’s human rights legislation? As such, your cause seek to continue the internal colonisation of Scotland through the denial of inalienable human rights.

      That the only truth you require. Got a truthful counter?

      “The right to development is an inalienable human right by virtue of which every human person and all peoples are entitled to participate in, contribute to, and enjoy economic, social, cultural and political development, in which all human rights and fundamental freedoms can be fully realized.” (Article 1.1, Declaration on the Right to Development)

      “The human right to development also implies the full realization of the right of peoples to self-determination, which includes, subject to the relevant provisions of both International Covenants on Human Rights, the exercise of their inalienable right to full sovereignty over all their natural wealth and resources.” (Article 1.2)

      http://www.un.org/en/events/righttodevelopment/pdf/rtd_at_a_glance.pdf

    315. uno mas says:

      Naw Ronnie, your thinking of the Omar Khayyam Indian restaraunt in Sauchiehall Street.

      It was definately from The Rubaiyat!

    316. Grouse Beater says:

      Paula Rose: “I trust we are all friends again”

      I’m going to attend the talk given by Grouse Beater in Edinburgh on Tuesday just to find out what the smarmy bastard looks like.

      (It’s sold out but I blagged a ticket)

    317. frogesque says:

      @Grouse Beater 10.13.

      No probs and thanks for the link. Well written and informative.

      Don’t usually post a lot myself but have been a fan of yours and others for some time. There is always something new to learn.

    318. CameronB Brodie says:

      Elizabeth Stanley
      Glad you’ve said hello, now don’t be a stranger. Don’t worry about the YOU ARE POSTING TOO FAST warning. It’s a system thing and is not meant personally.

    319. ronnie anderson says:

      @ Elizabeth Stanley See it doesn’t hurt to post up We welcome new blood , dont let ah wee tiff stop you commenting these things happen in the best of families Wingers are no different. Welcome and dont leave it to long until your next post as Ian Brotherhood says ignore the to fast to slow posting we all get it.

    320. Cherry says:

      O/T
      just catching up on all the posts. Whilst reading lots of Robert Peffers very informative history posts I’ve learned so much I was never taught at school. So I was reading some stuff on this website.

      http://www.britannica.com/place/United-Kingdom/William-Pitt-the-Younger#ref483385

      I found this little gem of “information”
      _________________________

      “Imperial expansion”

      “Britain’s ultimate success against Napoleon, like its importance in this period as a whole, owed much to its wealth—its capacity to raise loans through its financial machinery and revenue through the prosperity of its inhabitants and the extent of its trade. But British success also owed much to the power of its navy and to the energy and aggressiveness of its ruling class, which was particularly apparent in the imperial expansion of this period.

      Britain sought to extend its control by legislation, by war, and by individual enterprise. The Acts of Union with Scotland in 1707 and with Ireland in 1801 tightened London’s rule over its Celtic periphery, as did the laws passed to erode the autonomy of the Scottish Highlands after the rebellion of 1745.”
      ________________________________

      What I find abhorrent here is, we have all, at some time or another, opened up the Encyclopedia Britannica and trusted that what we were reading WAS TRUE.

      Within that snippet is the LIE. “rule over its Celtic periphery” Also is the too wee, too poor, too stupid, written with the arrogance of a superior people, it’s like a giant game of chess and we are the poor bloody pawns…totally expendable! I’m really getting cheesed off with these patronising upper class types.

      Reading the pages of this encyclopedia has actually made me very angry. It’s actually saying that Scotland is part of England…

      The following came from 18th Century Britain in the encyclopedia.

      “Wales returned only 24 members of Parliament and Scotland 45. Their limited representation indicated the extent to which these countries were subordinated to England in the British political system at this time.”

      Oh just let us leave!!

    321. frogesque says:

      @Elizabeth Stanley:

      Welcome! To yourself and other lurkers, Wings is always open to new blood. The vampires tend to get restless otherwise!

    322. Robert Peffers says:

      @Elizabeth Stanley says: 27 November, 2016 at 10:12 pm:

      “What I wanted to say was that I’m a long time lurker.
      Many of you have a much more in depth knowledge of Scottish history & law than I,so there is little I can bring to any discussion.”

      Oh! Elizabeth, do not underestimate yourself. Everyone has opinions but if you don’t state them then no one but you knows what they are.

      I had an instructor who used to say if you ask someone for a certain bit of information they may briefly give you the basic information.

      But then tell them they are wrong and they will go to great lengths to prove they are right.

      Then say, “sorry I disagreed with you and you know much more than I”, and they will be your info source for life.

      “I learn much from my lurking but feel I should add something too.”

      Please do we all learn from each other.

      “However I’m a little reluctant due to a few spats that seem to arise sometimes when a thread goes on past a certain point. Seems the natives get restless for a new topic”

      The spats can often be the source of new information that the other guy or gal did not think was important.

      For heaven’s sake Lass it is an open forum and if we all agreed with each other what on Earth would there be to debate?

      It is from our differences of opinion that we learn things from the others and everyone has something to add. Another thing is clear, if you think about it. Anyone who doesn’t know something and ask about it is leading others to give explanations and thus we learn from each other and you are as valid a commenter as anyone else.

    323. Robert J. Sutherland says:

      Elizabeth Stanley @ 22:12:

      What I wanted to say was that I’m a long time lurker.

      Many of you have a much more in depth knowledge of Scottish history & law than I, so there is little I can bring to any discussion.

      Hello and welcome to the fray! (Just ignore the “robo-grump” – it happens randomly to us all. The arbitrary gods in the machine. Hah – just got it myself there. They must be listening!)

      Actually, you can contribute specifically because of your standing. You can eg. “spot holes” from an ordinary person’s point of view, and indicate how and why you think some argument’s convincing or unconvincing. Or mention something you’ve encountered from the Unionist side that you think has been overlooked and needs addressing.

      The only qualification you really need is to be a sentient human being, and you’re good for that, no? =grin=

      We need to get “road-tested” for what’s coming, so anything you think needs asking or commenting upon could be helpful to us all. Remember, many others may be silently thinking the same as you are thinking. Someone needs to say it “out loud”!

      That incidentally includes former “no” voters who are willing to re-evaluate and engage. (As opposed to Unionist diehards who are just out to annoy and disrupt.)

      You also wrote:

      However I’m a little reluctant due to a few spats that seem to arise sometimes when a thread goes on past a certain point.

      Yes, that does happen sometimes, alas. We can be a contentious lot, but it’s (mostly) from good intent.

    324. Grouse Beater says:

      Frogeaque: “Alays been a fan of yours. There is always something new to learn.”

      Absolutely – an avid searcher after knowledge.

      Me – I feel enriched when I see things clearly, understand better. The essays are really my attempt at making sense, ensuring my argument is comprehensible. Same as a painter has an image in their head and then makes it substance on canvas, and then stand back to see if it works.

      Life is learning. Every day.

      The enemies of Scotland’s democracy know damn well that we need to be an expert in everything to defend Scotland’s rights: in law, history, economy, mathematics, statistics, even a political tactician … so they bombard us with crapology to confuse. I’ve learned to go for the jugular at the earliest to force tormentors to play fair.

      I don’t claim to be any sort of professor or sage, or work from an established platform, which allows me to get under the radar of the British establishment, like Rowling. They don’t think I’m a threat. Chuckle…

    325. Ruby says:

      Robert Peffers says:
      27 November, 2016 at 9:31 pm
      @Ruby says: 27 November, 2016 at 3:04 pm:

      “The problem I’ve found with a lot of Unionist posters is that a lot of them live in England and I can’t see the point in arguing with someone who lives in England.”

      Hey! I’ve lived in England at times in my life. I even married an English girl once. Unfortunately she died far too young. The thing is the Englander posting today could be your next door neighbour tomorrow or have a holiday home on Skye.

      Ruby replies

      When they become my next door neighbour then they won’t be living in England. However their heart might still be in England hence their NO vote!

      I’m assuming people who live in England arguing that Scotland should remain in the Union are doing it because they are principally concerned about where they live. They are arguing that England is better with Scotland in the Union. I would be happy to enter into a debate with them if they argued from that perspective instead of saying ‘we subsidise Scotland so you’ve got to stay’. I’ve yet to hear someone who lives in England who argues against Scottish Independence say what the advantages are for England in having Scotland in the Union.

      Sensible Dave hasn’t been posting for a long time! I wonder if he’s lurking?

    326. Tam Jardine says:

      defo and thepnr

      Ree-spect

      heedy

      Please keep commenting brother/sister. I do not know you but I love your posts on here and this site would not be the same without you.

      Take a break if you feel like it- many do. Anyway- in as much you can give a stranger a hug using a Samsung: that is it from me

    327. Dr Jim says:

      Front page of the SUN

      Theresa May says “God will guide us through Brexit”
      Do I need to add any more like Mad as a box of frogs or Episcobrexit or we’ve all to depend on Mythical Superbeings now!

      If the EU don’t do as they’re told she’ll smite them with a mighty blow of her staff or suffer them to have plagues of shit

      This woman is now officially insane, bonkers, a raving nut job,……. feel free to add mental descriptions

    328. Tam Jardine says:

      Elizabeth Stanley

      These spats you refer to happen when we are waiting as we are now. People fall out when we are waiting. The best thing to do is change the subject.

      Everyone has something to offer and a unique insight so a good place to start is to ignore everything and speak honestly from the heart. I want independence because I want my children to grow up in a better country. Over to you

    329. crazycat says:

      @ uno mas / ronnie anderson

      The Rubaiyat is a collection of verses attributed to Omar Khayyam, a Persian poet from the 11th-12th century (according to western calendars, not the one he would have used).

      The best-known translation into English was produced in the 19th century by Edward Fitzgerald, and includes the bit you quoted. It’s a long way from a literal translation, to the extent that Fitzgerald can almost be said to be its author rather than a translator.

      I occasionally went to the pub in Byres Road in the 1980s – is it not still there? Renamed? I’ve not been to the restaurant.

    330. Elizabeth Stanley says:

      Thanks for the welcome.

      To both Roberts I do my best work “off site” talking to as many others who will listen to my views on the utter necessity of independence.

      This evening my two best mates came round for a wee dram.Unfortunately they are both cons & UKOKers. I hate their politics but love them to bits.My aim in life is to turn these two.They are both firm EU remainders though & have had their solid ground shifted.

      It’s interesting to talk to people with differing views.With the strange things happening with global politics I can see a sniff of even my right wing friends getting doubts about the serious failings of Westminster.

    331. Smallaxe says:

      The Moving Finger writes;and, having writ,
      Moves on:nor all your Piety nor Wit
      Shall lure it back to cancel half a line,
      Nor all your Tears wash out a Word of it.

      Page 110
      Stanza 76

      Sorry to be a pain but I have the book.

      done into English by,Edward Fitzgerald

      Peace Always

    332. Albert Herring says:

      @ Wan mair & Ronnie

      Aye, but the Omar Khayyam owned The Rubaiyat! Have ye no heard o “The Rubaiyat of Omar Khayyam”?

    333. Ruby says:

      Dr Jim says:
      27 November, 2016 at 11:36 pm
      Front page of the SUN

      Theresa May says “God will guide us through Brexit”

      Ruby replies

      Is that the same God that guided Tony Blair, Gordon Brown & David Cameron?

    334. Paula Rose says:

      Yippee it’s all lovely here again.

    335. crazycat says:

      @ Smallaxe

      Snap! (and Peace, of course)

    336. Fireproofjim says:

      Omar Khayam also wrote ” A jug of wine. A loaf of bread. And thou beside me singing in rhe wilderness”
      Tha’s a pretty exact description of T in The Park.

    337. Ruby, D Jim
      “Dr Jim says:
      27 November, 2016 at 11:36 pm
      Front page of the SUN

      Theresa May says “God will guide us through Brexit”

      Ruby replies

      Is that the same God that guided Tony Blair, Gordon Brown & David Cameron?”

      Let us not forget Dubya.

      God told him to attack Persia, which he only resisted because he had had such a good time at the Gleneagles G8.

    338. Smallaxe says:

      Fireproofjim:crazycat:

      Here with a Loaf of Bread beneath the
      Bough,

      A Flask of Wine, a Book of Verse–and
      Thou

      Beside me singing in the Wilderness
      And Wilderness is Paradise enow.

      Peace Always

    339. ronnie anderson says:

      @ Ruby put that cattle prod doon or turn up the voltage Sensible Dave indeed, ah tolly has many aliases .

    340. Rock says:

      heedtracker,

      “Noticed The Rock’s eased off on his charming critique of all your great commenting. Just goes to show. Never tell any YESer to shut up.”

      heedtracker,

      “I’m not a troll but am clearly getting it very wrong to be called one. So I’ll revert back to being a WoS reader, AVID! WoS reader, only.”

      Easing off are you?

      Mind you I never use the “t” word against any posters even though many of the usual suspects use it against me because they cannot counter my point.

      As for Robert Peffers, he doesn’t have the foggiest idea of what “sovereignty” means in practice.

      If he did, he would have given one example of when the “plebs” exercised their “sovereignty” in the last 710 years.

      As to the Scottish government’s representations to the UK Supreme Court, if anything is allowed it will only be because the UK establishment does not want Brexit and will use any means possible to avoid it.

      As Bob Mack posted on a previous thread:

      “When did universal suffrage come to the UK?
      Prior to that nobody was allowed to express a choice. For over 300 years we had to do as we were told or suffer the
      consequences financially and even militarily.”

      What sort of “sovereignty” was that then?

      “Sovereignty” not worth the paper it was written on.

      To this day, basically the only right that the “plebs” have is the right to vote.

      And that right came from Westminster, long after the Treaty of Union, not from any Scottish document, nor from the rotten to the core Scottish justice system.

      The “plebs” of Scotland will only become “sovereign”, for the first time ever, if they vote for independence in a referendum, which I hope will be in May 2017.

      For the record, I consider myself to be a “pleb”.

    341. yesindyref2 says:

      @Robert Peffers
      I checked it out some time ago (used to have a relation work in SY), and the actual area is where RUSI is now, and I think some admiralty buildings. Very near Trafalgar Square.

    342. GrahamB says:

      crazycat at 11:47pm and several previous posters
      The Rubaiyat (aka the Rubber Yacht) on Byres Road was a smashing pub in the late 60s, 70s and into the 80s. Can’t remember exactly when it closed (I have photos of the closing night which became a bit of a rammie with police called, but I’ll need to find them to get a definitive date) but it has changed hands and names several times since. Last time I looked it was called The Hill, no idea why.
      There were beautiful etched mirrors showing scenes and quotations from the Rubaiyat of Omar Khayyam behind the bar which disappeared after the miserable git Montgomery who owned it then retired and sold it on. Fortunately they were not destroyed and have been reinstated in the bar as far as I know but I suspect all the Art Deco character will have gone.
      In its heyday in the late 60s and 70s it was a hotbed of political discussion wlth the GUSNA (Glasgow University Scottish National(ist?) Association) well to the fore along with the Conservative and Unionists and the Liberals. I don’t remember any presence from Labour although Saint Donald was active in these forums around that time.

    343. Rock says:

      Dr Jim,

      “Front page of the SUN

      Theresa May says “God will guide us through Brexit””

      Saint Theresa of England and Wales. God help them.

      If Brexit does happen, Scotland as a colony will 100% be part of it.

      Zero chance of any special treatment either from Westminster or from the EU.

      But I believe the UK establishment will do its nastiest to prevent Brexit.

    344. Robert Peffers says:

      @Grouse Beater says: 27 November, 2016 at 10:13 pm:

      “I don’t comment much here these days, and can be out of date if dropping in on established discussions.

      Here’s mine: http://wp.me/p4fd9j-9QH

      I read your stuff, Grouse Beater, but often do not comment as I’m flat out with other matters just now. On the subject of the clearances.

      While those in the Highlands were physically more brutal the clearances were actually from the entire Kingdom of Scotland and those in the Central Lowlands and Southern Uplands were equally cruel in a different way.

      Due mainly to different ways of life. I first, many years age, became aware of this while researching my own family history. The family were farming stock but lost their farm in what my Grandfather termed, “The Year o the short corn”.

      But I digress. The method used to clear the land in the central belt was by use of, “The Vagrancy Acts”. The agricultural workers owned next to nothing and could pack their entire belongings into their, “Pluchies Kists”, (Ploughman’s Chests).

      They had no homes of their own as the those who lived in, “Pluchie’s Raws”, (Ploughman’s Rows), of hovels, (I was brought up in one such), were in tied cottages. Unmarried men lived in Farm Bothies and unmarried females, (Kitchies), were housed in the Big Hoose, (farmhouse), attics and/or cellar area.

      Once every year the farmer or landowner would load the workers and their Pluckie’s Kists on farm carts and take them to Feein oan merkits, (Feeing on Markets). There they sat and waited to be engaged to a farmer or landowner for the next year. If engaged they were given a silver coin and carted, often back to the same farm or estate.

      Then came the clearances and the, “Vagrancy Acts”, which, by the way were only ended in the late 1990s. Under these acts if a worker was not fee’d oan he/she was taken into custody by the local police and dragged before the Sheriff charged, “With having no visible means of support”.

      Then we find the little mentioned dark period in Scottish History when each, “Parish”, maintained both a, “Workhouse”, and a, “Poorhouse”, as well as a local Jail. There was also the far darker practice of Transportation to the Colonies, where even those innocent of any crime were, “Apprenticed”, to wealthy landowners and business people in the colonies.

      Now, there were two types of transported passengers on the ships. Prisoners and warders. On arrival, and the death rate on the ships was very high, the prisoners were sold like slaves into, “Apprenticeships”, and many were starved, beaten or chose to end it in death.

      If they survived they then were allowed to stake a claim and either farm it or mine it, (if they were lucky). If they built a dwelling on the claim then that claim became legally theirs. Many of the female transported people ended up as wealthy peoples bed-warmers and others into the sex trade in brothels or on the street. Others were worked, or beaten, to death.

      As for those who signed up as warders for the trip they were deemed to have served their sentence and could immediately stake a claim. Make no mistake they cleared the lowlands and the southern uplands. Perhaps the murdered Highlanders were the lucky ones who at least had a quick death.

      While doing that family research I came across a Christian Peffers who was transported as, “Having no visible means of support”, and who signed as a warder to Australia and survived.

      He had no crime marked against his name on the ships manifest as had those who had been convicted of something. So there you go – not all early Australians were actually convicts and criminals.

    345. yesindyref2 says:

      Site blacked out earlier, nearly forgot to post this.

      http://ec.europa.eu/eurostat/statistics-explained/index.php/Annual_national_accounts_-_how_ESA_2010_has_changed_the_main_GDP_aggregates

      UK is due to submit its first full submission to the twice yearly eurostats under ESA2010 I think in March 2017. That has increased the reported figure for countries GDP which is good for the UK and should be good for GERS, decreasing our notional deficit as a % of GDP. And I think student loans will have to be reported under it which is also good as the ScotGov have complained about this with respect to GERS. Our GERS has it, I don’t think the UK’s natiponal accounts do, which means I think our reported deficit in relation to the UK’s – would be LESS. The moronically described “effective fiscal transfer” would also be less.

      But I think pension debt will have to be reported in the annual accounts as well which is bad for the UK and no idea how that will affect GERS, Scotland’s notional deficit.

      Could be partly why Article 50 is planned end March though – maybe the UK is going to refuse to toally implement ESA2010 (ESA10), or insist on an extended derogation.

    346. Breeks says:

      So Nicola Sturgeon is putting her faith in the Law Courts, while Theresa May is putting her faith in God.

      I’m sure it isn’t just me who sees the irony in that….

    347. Cactus says:

      Hey, everybody good, we good.

      Who hath got ra bolt-cutters.. these chains!

      A thank you.. kindly.
      X.

    348. CameronB Brodie says:

      Tom Faw Driver, Paul Tillich Professor Emeritus at Union Theological Seminary, expressed concern “that the worship of God in Christ not divide Christian from Jew, man from woman, clergy from laity, white from black, or rich from poor”. To him, Christianity is in constant danger of Christofascism, stating that “[w]e fear christofascism, which we see as the political direction of all attempts to place Christ at the center of social life and history” and that “[m]uch of the churches’ teaching about Christ has turned into something that is dictatorial in its heart and is preparing society for an American fascism”.[6][7]

      https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Christofascism

    349. Robert Peffers says:

      @Dr Jim says: 27 November, 2016 at 11:36 pm:

      “Theresa May says “God will guide us through Brexit”
      Do I need to add any more like Mad as a box of frogs or Episcobrexit or we’ve all to depend on Mythical Superbeings now!”

      Arrrgh! Dr Jim. Has it not yet dawned upon you that this GOD thing goes with the YOONDOM territory?

      USA Presidents and the USA Anthem mention GOD as do the God Save Auld Lizzie lot and the English MPS, MEPs and even the honoured ones in the HOL all swear by almighty God their allegiance to their Queen of England but the Scots have a choice. English police and servicemen/women and Civil Servants too but, believe it or not, the Scottish Police do not, (now think deeply upon why that might be) – hint, “Sovereignty”.

      Read all about it here :-

      https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Oath_of_Allegiance

    350. Robert Peffers says:

      @Fireproofjim says:
      28 November, 2016 at 12:09 am
      Omar Khayam also wrote ” A jug of wine. A loaf of bread. And thou beside me singing in rhe wilderness”
      Tha’s a pretty exact description of T in The Park.

      Aye! But! T in the perk haes mud an watter and yon ither gadgie haes sand an nae water.

      Mibbies you wull bi kis he haes the wine?

    351. ed t head says:

      if people stop watching strictly celebjungel ect, and look at the real world they will see that most tv is to dumb the veiwer so he she wont look at how shit life has got. The gov have used the cold war and climet change to scare people, Dome Fugi in Antarctica has a historic ice core temp range of +5 to -10 from todays temp over hundreds of thousands of years, so why do we have the 2 degree panic is it to keep the masses down. It also gets a nice big tax hike (for your good son) yes I think polution is a issue but not as high as the gov make it. Remember the earth is billions of years old and climate records are a few hundred, so keep an open mind I always look at the Vikings they lived on Greenland from 1000 years ago but over 500 years the weather became colder so they left. So the best way to goven is fear?

    352. call me dave says:

      Daily Express:
      Pensions Shock. Hammond must tell all!

      http://archive.is/RbYBw

    353. Liz g says:

      Elizabeth Stanley
      Welcome….. I am just catching up on all today’s chat.
      Your comments have stood out though.
      If you feel you can….tell us what you think about what we are saying.
      And can you keep us informed about how your No voting friends are viewing things.
      All this matters…it really does Elizabeth,we will be trying to form a new way of doing things (governance) very soon.
      Therefore we need every view point possible.

      Sometimes things get a bit prickly on here,but it’s a Country and a future we are trying to define.So ofcourse it will.

      Can I also say that you must by definition appreciate robust debate..to have “lurked” here in the first place.
      Therefore.. I think…. sayin that you have an opinion… would be a fair statement……
      Please tell us what you think,ultimately that’s the whole point.

      Sometimes I think we all forget that we are actually making History here,I know that sounds like a grandiose claim but I do think that we are the Scot’s who will eventually secure the integrity of this nation.
      That’s historical….so to you Elizabeth and to all the others who are”lurking”….come on board,jump in take part…
      As someone somewhere once said….. your contribution is valued!!!!!

    354. Dr Jim says:

      @Robert Peffers

      I prefer to affirm Robert,
      I like to think when our team had to make their oaths they crossed their fingers behind their backs or at least in their heads, and anyway it’s only about 40 days and 40 nights till the Supreme Court tells God what’s actually happening, so God’s lost the first round already

      Theresa May’ll smite me if I’m not careful (Heretic Heretic)

    355. Liz g says:

      Dr jim & Robert Peffers

      An Oath must be freely given or tis no Oath at all.

      Don’t know where I heard that.
      But will maintain that position…em ,well , …… always
      Therefore the statement that Wallace made “How can I be a ("Tractor" - Ed)”ect.
      Holds the kind of truth we would now call…self evident…

      Good luck with that Supreme Court.
      Poor Fluffy gang awa hame laddie!!

    356. Liz g says:

      Ok humour me..
      I might have missed something.
      Does the word Traitor automatically get changed?
      Is it an internet thing?
      Is it just this site?
      And in either case…Why?…

    357. Liz g says:

      Testing..
      Traitor

    358. Ian Brotherhood says:

      @Liz g –

      Aye, Rev ‘banned’ a few words, yonks ago, so they get changed automatically.

      Traitor becomes tractor.

      Quisling becomes quizmaster.

      I’m sure there was another one, but I forget.

      Oh, and if you use ‘parcel of rogues’ you get banned forever, or something…

      🙂

      It’s pure harsh draconian stuff so it is…

    359. Liz g says:

      Ian Brotherhood @ 4.13
      Thanks for the information Ian.
      Ha…
      So very Evil Cybernaty …why am I surprised?
      Can’t be letting down our reputation..that would never do!
      LOL.

    360. Grouse Beater says:

      Peffers: “I read your stuff, Grouse Beater, but often do not comment as I’m flat out with other matters just now. On the subject of the Clearances.”

      Aye, the Clearances manifested themselves in all sorts of ways. On Australian shipments – one reason prisoners were dumped there so that the French couldn’t claim the place as their own. There are people today who think the Clearances are a winter sale.

    361. Dorothy Devine says:

      Oh happy days ! You have reminded me of the times long gone in the Rubaiyat and of the poem – nostalgia at 7.27 in the morning , whatever next!

    362. Ken500 says:

      The Sun is truly awful. How can any organisation print such nonsense or anyone read it.

      All right for a bit of free publicity and advertising, though.

      Rev Stu has got it right.

      Flying just like wings.

    363. Sinky says:

      Michael Settle in Herald page 2 this morning repeats the lie that Scotland has a massive deficit based on latest GERS figures.

      Martin Redfern letter in Scotsman attacking Lord Advocate Wolfe’s submission to Supreme Court – basically the SNP should shut up and let Britannia waive the rules.

    364. cearc says:

      Oh look. No wonder Jacob Rees-Mogg liked the budget. It is his mother-in-laws family home that they gave money to save!

      https://twitter.com/katie_martin_fx/status/803142181913501696

    365. mr thms says:

      Put this on the wrong article.. well it was late..

      Just started reading the Lord Advocate of Scotland’s submission to the Supreme Court of the United Kingdom..

      The link can be found in this article.. (all 58 pages)

      http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-scotland-politics-38110677

      And a thought occurred to me.

      If Brexit has the effect of changing the legislative competence of the Scottish Parliament, then it will be difficult for the Scottish Government to create new acts in the knowledge they are required to be compatible with current devolved powers and EU law, only to have them disapplied or disabled when the UK leaves.

      Confusing..

    366. Liz g says:

      Mr thms @ 8.40
      No that I am defending Westminster,but Holyrood will be able to legislate as normal.
      That’s what their Great Repeal bill is all about!
      The plan is that all the law’s stay the same and are written in the same way.
      Up to and until Westminster changes them one by one.
      The difference is that when a law is changed it doesn’t have to be compatible with EU law.
      Also it can only be argued as far as the Supreme Court.
      Nobody gets to go to the European Court’s anymore.
      It will apparently take decades to change these Law’s one by one.
      So therefore it is probably fair to say that Westminster will start with the ones that matter most to them.
      I don’t know about you but I find that quite scary.
      Hopefully we will be long gone by then though.

    367. Robert Peffers says:

      @cearc says: 28 November, 2016 at 8:39 am:

      “Oh look. No wonder Jacob Rees-Mogg liked the budget. It is his mother-in-laws family home that they gave money to save!
      https://twitter.com/katie_martin_fx/status/803142181913501696

      Yes, cearc, it highlights the often overlooked fact that the United Kingdom is still a very wealthy kingdom of four unequal countries with The former Kingdom of England now ruling over them as a country but masquerading as the United Kingdom. They do this by imposing austerity measures upon the poorest and most vulnerable people in the United Kingdom.

      There really is no shortage of money in a political state that can afford to transfer the wealth of the country from the pockets of the poor into the offshore bank accounts of the ultra rich as you so well demonstrate.

      Also never forget that the main way they do so, indirect taxation, began under a Labour Party Westminster administration that now have those actual former Labour MPs drawing £300 per day attendance money in the HOL and there are more members of the house of lords from the labour party than from any other party. It is the biggest non-elected legislative body in the World. Just think that they look down their collective noses and class the late Castro as a dictator.

      The whole scam is designed to take from the poor and give what is taken from them to the rich. In the period that has had the poor literally dying from poverty in so many ways the wealthiest 10% in the United Kingdom have increased their wealth by more than 150%

    368. Ken500 says:

      Vote SNP/SNP May 2017. Vote for Independence.

      The UK is the most unequal place in the world with some of the highest debts, because of Westminster Unionist crooks.

    369. T.roz says:

      Robert prefers

      Yes Robert, and there is also LAND, the ownership of land. That’s what it is all about, it leads to accumulated wealth, housing, communication, way leave, agri-subsidies. If we could get ownership structure of Scottish land rearranged then our people would find the self confidence to grasp independence and the yes vote would be in the 70% region.

    370. ronnie anderson says:

      @ cearc See that Stu Campbell gits us Vile Cybernats ah baader name ( ah kin see ah new Badge on the horizon ) Vile Cybernats dont bet wie Fred lol.

    371. Valerie says:

      Good to have a smile, first thing, when WoS is top of your timeline with the Sun article on Rev suing McTernan.

      They always use that head shot of Stu, where he looks pure fierce.

      As Stu says, it’s a point of principle, and McTernan was just arrogant and stupid to engage if he was going to welch.

    372. galamcennalath says:

      This new legal challenge to May where arguments are being made that leaving the EU does not necessarily mean leaving the EEA (single market). They claim that that EURef asked about leaving the EU, nothing else. Sounds a fair point.

      It highlights the similarity between IndyRef1 and EURef where in both cases the winning side had produced no plan, no prospectus, no manifesto as to what a win for them might mean.

      In both NO and LEAVE no one actually agrees what those options meant!

      IndyRef1 we consider a NO win to have meant DevoMax/FFA. The Unionist consider it meant a free hand to do as they wished.

      EURef and the Tories think it means carte blanche to embark on a right wing horror fest.

      A referendum is meant to be ‘a change’ versus status quo. In EURef the ‘change’ was Cameron’s renegotiation. Having clearly defined mild change versus totally undefined massive change was a disasterous idea!

      Now court case after court case will be needed to fill in all the blanks.

    373. Ken500 says:

      The majority want a regulated land registery but they do not want land illegally taken away from people. For obvious reasons the economy would collapse, The right to own property is enshired in human rights legislation. Compulsory purchase with compensation Laws exist. Land in Scotland is £5,000 an acre. It is worth more with planning permission. Anyone with qualification can buy land in Scotland. With a mortgage on qualification, over 25years. Landownership is not a major concern for the majority in Scotland. If they want to buy land they would. A house can be built on 1/4 of an acre.

      No wonder Football is in such a state. Letting paedophiles run the Clubs. No wonder the terraces are empty.

    374. Ken500 says:

      The Greens could cost Scotland Independence Reduce the vote. The most unpopular pressure group, the policies and the behaviour could lose YES votes.

    375. mr thms says:

      #Liz g @ 9:09 am

      Thanks for your reply.

      The Scottish Government might not have the competence to pass laws on public services.

      There might be a transition period where they can pass laws that remain compatible with EU law.

      But, there is at the same time, nothing to stop the UK Government passing new laws to unify (for example) the UK’s public services and legal system.

      The NHS, Justice, Education and Police systems of the devolved governments could in theory all be rolled into one and administered by Westminster.

    376. Ruby says:

      I found the Herald article I was looking for.

      ‘Treat talk of ‘UK single market’ with caution
      Leask, DavidAuthor InformationView Profile. The Herald [Glasgow (UK)] 23 Nov 2016.’

      ‘Meanwhile, Scottish EU law expert, Alastair MacIver of Tilburg University in the Netherlands, has warned Holyrood could be the biggest loser from hard Brexit. He said: “No UK single market currently exists and establishing an effective and lasting one would entail a large expansion of the reserved powers vested in Westminster.

      “This would see Holyrood lose some of its current powers and miss out on those repatriated from Brussels.”

      I found it thanks to another article in The Herald in today’s Herald:

      ‘Brexit puts Holyrood’s power at serious risk’

      All this is at the heart of the Lord Advocate’s submissions. It goes, after all, to the very crux of what Brexit means for Scotland. And with this in mind it’s time for people on both sides of the independence debate to stand together and defend devolution to the death.

      After all, if the UK Government is prepared to take Scotland out of the EU without allowing our devolved parliament to make its voice heard, then what does that say about the integrity of the devolution settlement in the first place? What would it actually be worth? The term, I believe, is sweet Fanny Adams.

    377. Ruby says:

      I found the Herald article I was looking for.

      ‘Treat talk of ‘UK single market’ with caution
      Leask, DavidAuthor InformationView Profile. The Herald [Glasgow (UK)] 23 Nov 2016.’

      ‘Meanwhile, Scottish EU law expert, Alastair MacIver of Tilburg University in the Netherlands, has warned Holyrood could be the biggest loser from hard Brexit. He said: “No UK single market currently exists and establishing an effective and lasting one would entail a large expansion of the reserved powers vested in Westminster.

      “This would see Holyrood lose some of its current powers and miss out on those repatriated from Brussels.”

      I found it thanks to another article in The Herald in today’s Herald:

      ‘Brexit puts Holyrood’s power at serious risk’

      All this is at the heart of the Lord Advocate’s submissions. It goes, after all, to the very crux of what Brexit means for Scotland. And with this in mind it’s time for people on both sides of the independence debate to stand together and defend devolution to the death.

      After all, if the UK Government is prepared to take Scotland out of the EU without allowing our devolved parliament to make its voice heard, then what does that say about the integrity of the devolution settlement in the first place? What would it actually be worth? The term, I believe, is sweet Fanny Adams.

    378. Ruby says:

      Ooops!

      What’s happened to the duplicate post bot? Is he sleeping?

    379. Bob Mack says:

      The UK government would only be able to pass laws on the legal system in Scotland for the same reason they have done for decades, That is compliant unionist MP’S representing Scotland and fostering the Westminster line

      They may find it more difficult with SNP representation and a LOT of unhappy Scots

      No wonder the want a new Act of Union. They would try to remove any potential barriers to English supremacy..

    380. Ken500 says:

      Scotland raises £54Billion a year.

      Since 2010 Osbourne/Tories been illegally taxing the Scottish Oil & Gas sector at 60% to 80% when prices had fallen 75%. Costing Scotland thousands of jobs and at least £4Billion + a year. £24Bilion. The tax is now 40% since Jan 2016. Untaxed fracked Gas and Oil in now being imported. Putting up the balance of payments deficit and the debt.

      Scotland pays £1Billion a year for Trident. Scotland can’t tax ‘loss leading’ cheap alcohol. Cost £1Billion. Scotland has to pay on average £4Billion loan repayments on money borrowed and spent in the rest of the UK. That will increase with higher borrowings. Scotland loses £3Billion in tax evasion. HMRC not fit for purpose. Whisky companies etc tax evade. Lost Oil & Gas revenues £4Billion = £13Billion+ (the so called Deficit).

      Scotland can’t borrow 10%? To invest in the economy £6Billion

      £19Billion Scotland’s price of the Union.

      The UK the most unequal place in the world with the highest debt. Illegal wars, banking fraud and tax evasion. Cost £Trillions of illegal Unionist politician mismanagement. A £300Billion Oil fund illegally and secretly taken and misused and squandered.

      Scotland loses £Billion in EU Grants because of Westminster Unionist indecision. Westminster Unionist misappropriated and took CAP payments made to Scottish farmers. Ruined the fishing industry with total mismanagement of regulation, conservation and net sizes. Westminster Unionist reneged on CCS projects. Costing Scotland more £Billions.

    381. Fred says:

      One of the first pubs I was ever in was the sawdusted “Stewart’s” in Cathedral Street between Dundas Street & Buchanan Street. Quotations from Omar Khayyam were freely painted around the walls for the edification of the peeps, who no doubt had a quote off-pat for every occasion!

      “A soft answer turneth away wrath!” was sound advice to hamefarin inebriates.

    382. CameronB Brodie says:

      I don’t understand why folk respect a legal system that denies their inalienable human rights? You are submitting to and standing under a corrupt system that stands in conflict with the UN’s definition of a human being.

      The Scottish and English legal systems deserves no respect, IMHO. They deny your humanity.

      Don’t be slaves all your lives, put the master’s tools down.

      “The right to development is an inalienable human right by virtue of which every human person and all peoples are entitled to participate in, contribute to, and enjoy economic, social, cultural and political development, in which all human rights and fundamental freedoms can be fully realized.” (Article 1.1, Declaration on the Right to Development)

      “The human right to development also implies the full realization of the right of peoples to self-determination, which includes, subject to the relevant provisions of both International Covenants on Human Rights, the exercise of their inalienable right to full sovereignty over all their natural wealth and resources.” (Article 1.2)

      http://www.un.org/en/events/righttodevelopment/pdf/rtd_at_a_glance.pdf

    383. Liz g says:

      Mr thms @ 10.37
      Aye Mr thms what a lot of people especially in England don’t seem to realise is that the Parliamentary Soverenty they vote to protect.
      Is infact giving Westminster unlimited power to do anything they like.
      To have tempered Westminster’s power was reason enough to stay within Europe.
      After we have gone I really do hate to think what will happen to the English.
      Especially since for the first time in history they cannot draw on another country’s resources.
      If ever there was a time to say Turkeys voting for Christmas this is it.
      Hopefully they don’t take too long to wake up.

    384. mealer says:

      Robert Peffers 10.13 pm
      There are a few very important mistakes in your analysis of the lowland clearances.The most important of these is your timeline.
      BEFORE the lowland clearances,which took place in every country in Europe,there was peasant subsistence agriculture with people renting small bits of infield and outfield with perhaps some common grazing.It was usually rented from a man who rented it from a man who rented it from a man who rented it from the Duke.This system was swept away and the people cleared off.

      The land was divided into farms with tenant farmers who required workers,initially drawn from those cleared.These were the pleuchies(hinds) and herds who were engaged at fee’in marts and lived in bothies etc.What you describe in paragraphs five and six is what came AFTER the lowland clearances.I hope my grossly over simplified contribution is of some help to you.Please keep up the good work,which so many of us find so interesting.

      Catherine Rice wrote a short and easy to read book called “All Their Good Friends And Neighbours”,published I think by Abertay Historical Society,which provides a good case study.

    385. Fred says:

      Another unfamiliar English non-victory! Shhhhh! 🙂

      The Battle of Myton,

      http://military.wikia.com/wiki/Batle_of_Myton

    386. ronnie anderson says:

      Paul Nuttall (ukip) will put the great back into britain , must be ah two fingered typissed lol.

    387. Robert Peffers says:

      @mealer says: 28 November, 2016 at 12:06 pm:
      Robert Peffers 10.13 pm

      “There are a few very important mistakes in your analysis of the lowland clearances.The most important of these is your timeline.”

      Mealer, I was born, (in the late 1930s), in a Pluchie’s Raw. My parents then lodged with my Grandparents while awaiting allocation of a home from Edinburgh City Council.

      In the event they took a private rental in the then fairly new built housing Scheme in Sighthill but this let was ended when Dad was conscripted for WWII.

      When WWII began my father was conscripted and, due to a government error that recorded my mother as, still a single childless woman, my mother was also conscripted to do munitions work in England. I was left to be brought up by my grandparents. Mum, with the help of none other than the SNPs Arthur Donaldson who campaigned against Scots women being conscripted to work in England, saw my Mother moved still to do war work in an Edinburgh factory. She could have left munitions related work but a conscripted soldier’s pay was poor and she continued until Dad was demobilised.

      The point is that I spent my early years in a Pluchie’s Raw. It had no running water, no inside toilet and no inside drains. There was neither mains water, gas or electricity and it was only a main room, a bedroom and a scullery,

      On the farm there was only horses, no tractors, and the single male workers lodged in the Farm Bothie. It was not until around 1949 or 1950 that my Grandmother, now widowed, was rehoused in a new prefab in the local village.

      This just 11 miles from the Edinburg Main GPO at the East End of Edinburgh’s Princes Street. Tell folks that people were still living in such conditions in Scotland in the 1950s and most people do not believe you.

      Mind you I came across some cases in both the Highlands & Islands and the Southern Uplands as late as early 2000s. I met a very interesting old man in the Tibbie Shiels Inn, (by St Mary’s Loch, near Moffat), who lived in an dugout with a, “Soddy”, roof on the hillside by the Southern Upland walkway. (Soddy roof is turf laid on either wood slats or bits of corrugated iron).

      By The Way – I checked the date of the repeal of the vagrancy act, (Scotland), and it was actually earlier than my memory had suggested.

      I may have instead remembered the 1990s date when the rest of the UK followed Scotland’s earlier lead, The entire 1824 Act was repealed in Scotland by the Civic Government (Scotland) Act 1982.

      That United Kingdom, 1842 act, was actually just changes to earlier English vagrancy acts.

      Then there is this :-

      http://hansard.millbanksystems.com/commons/1981/jul/14/agricultural-tied-housing-reform-scotland

    388. T.roz says:

      Ken 500

      Do you know anything about land? Most people live in houses which are built on what??Tenant farmers can’t buy their farms if they want to! Anyway,here is the big one that would sort the job, LAND TAX.



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