There’s no other way
Posted on
December 03, 2016 by
Chris Cairns
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They are scoring own goals, at every turn. Nicola is seen to be exploring all options, the choice for Scotland is becoming clear, to most, independence.
Cartoon said it all, but better.
Fluffy making eyes at Phil…
[…] Wings Over Scotland There’s no other way Order “Welcome To Cairnstoon”, Chris’ compilation of Wings cartoons and […]
Nothing wrong with being obsessed by independence when it is for the betterment of 5 million people, and indirectly their neighbours.
The SNP’s second obsession is the excellent government of Scotland while it readies us for independence.
Let”s stop being defensive about our benign, positive obsession with independence and let’s shout it from the rooftops.
Great cartoon. That would be the rational Hammond, if there were one. But I doubt he has the capacity to even think that far. Then off scene there’s wee Ruthie parroting him for the sake of the Scottish Parliament.
However he has a secret weapon, when it becomes clear that there is no other option but Independence, when it is staring all of Scotland in the face that there is no other way, then the sclerotic rictus of Slab, the over 65s and the ConLibDems will kick in.
And Willie Rennie has a plan in his hand to raise £500million from a modest 1p tax increase and all the problems of Brexit, Tory cuts to the Scottish budget, Labour(UK and Slab) opposing all improvements to Scotland’s powers and the crushing stupidity of Johnston, Hammond, Davies, Fox and May will disappear.
And there will be blue birds over the white cliffs of Dover.
As some regular Wingers will no doubt be aware, Allan Massie, young Alex’s far-more erudite and learned father, writes a regular rugby and cricket column in The Scotsman on a Saturday.
Some years ago, at a time when change was being mooted in the way Scottish club rugby worked, Allan wrote a piece in which he suggested a phenomenon he identified as: “Aye Beenism” was the biggest hold-up to progress in the game.
This is the situation whereby, someone suggests a change, only to be met by: “Naw, son, ye canna dae that, its aye been done this way”.
I have since identified “Aye Beenism” as embedded in the DNA of Scottish football as well. I now fear, it is endemic in my fellow “coffin dodgers”, who refuse to countenance change.
I have mentioned on here before, my membership of a pensioners news and current affairs discussion group. With Brexit, I now note, those of us who are pushing the “Independence is our only hope” argument, and pointing-out what a mess the Tories have got the country into, we are winning the argument.
But, even though our points are accepted – “Aye Beenism” is still rampant, too many cannot see through their Union Flag-tinted spectacles to the brighter tomorrow of an Independent Scotland.
Still, we keep going – in political life, as in a sporting one, the Aye Beeners are dying out – change is coming, even in conservative – and the small ‘c’ is deliberate, Scotland.
Panic showing in Supreme Court response to Article 50
link to thenational.scot
Great cartoon yet again Chris.
The yoons problem is, Indy Ref was two years ago and we are supposed to have forgotten about it by now.
You know the old “Too stupid, those Jocks are not interested in anything but Bucky and deep fried mars bars.”
In reality the Scots are totally the opposite (Politically motivated )
OOOPS don’t tell them.
Yep, that seems to be exactly where things are going. Mr Cairns on the ball as always.
I’m listening to GMS right now and can’t believe what I’m hearing. Finally some honest reporting from bbc. Some wonderful interviews with people who actually know what is going on and you’ll be surprised at some of the comments.
If only it were all like this instead of all the London stooges like Hammup and Fluffy trying to tell us how it should be.
The Tories will never willingly give Scotland any new powers or devolved policies that will allow it’s leaders to govern the nation to the betterment of the people. We saw that after Indyref1 and we are seeing it played out again.
Hammond’s strategy is that by closing off every door of opportunity to Scots to either remain in the single market or retain our EU membership, the Tories are almost inviting an Indyref2 which they hope by using the same project fear tactics again and we will lose.
A lot of the arguments they used during Indyref1 have now been proven to be lies but they will come up with others, the main ones now being turning our backs on our biggest market, and the old trusty “warships cannot be built outside of the UK” threat to shipbuilding on the Clyde, and the perennial “volatility of oil” which Scots can’t manage but the broad shoulders of the UK can.
I only hope that the Scots who are open to persuasion don’t bottle it second time around because if they do, Hammond and his Tory pals constitutional problems will be solved for a very long time indeed, and Scotland could be resigned to decades of servitude unless we are presented with another golden opportunity such as Brexit.
Please don’t blow this again Scotland, I don’t want to ever feel the way I did again on the morning of the 19th September 2014.
Capella, been up since 4 so had a read through the intervention by Aidan O Neill for the Independent Workers Union. There are some really good arguments in there and it brings Dec of Arbroath, Acts of Union, Claim of Right, in with case law from 18th 19th and 20th C. Worth a read too. Interesting little snippet too about how Brenda reaffirms her accession oath annually to Gen Ass of Church of Scotland.
And also about Scotland never being a Dominion so English Jurisdiction has never applied here. All stuff we discuss here but good to see sources for it.
Aye well, while the rest of the Westminster mob were saying it would take 30 years to move Trident and threatening to make Faslane and Coulport “Sovereign UK territory”, it was Phil Hammond who said it could be moved in 10 years (9th May 2014).
link to archive.is
“ The Conservative minister said it would take at least 10 years and cost tens of billions of pounds to move the UK’s nuclear deterrent from the Clyde.
His comments came despite colleagues in the Coalition Government saying they will not “pre-negotiate” the terms of any independence settlement.”
He’s no fool. Mundell on the other hand is anybody’s fool.
Jan 2017 the Indy ref campaign begins. We must
Ensure the tory/unionists don’t sweep up postal votes by trawling around care and nursing homes
Get even more dont know’s and no voters (from 2014) to vote for Independence
Young adults 13 and above will be able to vote in 2-3 years. They are optimistic and supportive of the EU
We all work harder on the hard No’s- who don’t realise it appears that SNP is not Independence
Encourage Labour, Liberal and others to support the cause of independence
The British state ie BBC, News media must be challenged at any opportunity. It can be done.
Please add more
They sure are trolling us Chris with the imperial master and Britain is great pish. Fluffy is a wee hanger oan that far up their arses he’s found Alberta Costa’s shoes..
The cartoon is clear Nicola and SNP exploring every other way. In UK parliament now no democracy or debate except from SNP.
Looking at history of Empire this is similar to how other countries walked to Independence.
For Independence to represent the disadvantages Hammond talks about, he would have to actively penalise us. It would require a new 21st century Alien Act!
link to moflomojo.blogspot.com
This if Off-Topic and (sort of) about football
I think we should add BT to our list of anti-Scottish UK organisations.
I use BT for my broadband connection, and, they now helpfully provide some “Editor’s pick” video clips, for the occasions when my inbox is empty.
At the moment one of the one-minute-long clips which is running is a list of: “The worst (football) international managers ever”, and, included in the list is oor ain wee Berti McVogts.
The caption helpfully tells us Berti failed to get the Tartan Army to either the 1994 World Cup, or the 1996 European Championship finals.
Very true: Andy Roxburgh was the manager at the start of the unsuccessful 1994 World Cup campaign, but, he resigned once qualfication was beyond us, with Craig Brown taking over, and leading us to the 1996 European Championship finals.
Aye, right enough, down there in London, Scotland is indeed, a small, far-away country of which they know nothing – and care even less.
Great toon, Chris.
The Tories are indeed working hard to remove every option but two, Indy or dae-as-yer-telt.
And, that is a good thing. IndyRef1 was lost because of promises of jam tomorrow. It is essential that in IndyRef2 the choice is clear binary with no scope left for WM to make ‘special case’ promises to Scotland.
I do wonder if they fully understand what they are doing. They seem very blazé about their Union!
It all points to bad judgement and muddling along with no plan.
A prefect example being their appeal to the Supreme Court. They were told to go to Westminster with Brexit and that is what they should have done. However by appealing to the SC they have given others, including the Scottish Government, an opportunity to pile in and widen the legal debate to include devolved legislatures and wider constitutional issues.
I doubt very much if this is what the Tories had in mind when they went to the Supreme Court! They clearly didn’t think it through.
Reading Sun Tzu makes me think of what May is doing.
She lacks foresight and calculations of her actions.
And these are wise words as well
link to militaryquotes.org
O/T
Nichola Sturgeon speech to European Greens Council Meeting in Glasgow yesterday.
link to livestream.com
Wonder if you ever get tired of standing ovations? 😉
Once again you capture the moment Chris 🙂
Got to say though you missed out on a trick i would have had ET peeking in with his laser gun as well though to be fair Muddle is from planet eejit and has plenty of space between his ears.
Can you believe this guy is chancellor i mean WTF England.
Wee Fluffy is not smart enough to really be an enemy. Phillip Hammond on the other hand is no fool and we’d be daft to assume otherwise. I still see our main enemy as the BUM, mainly the BBC, and ….. wait for it….. the SCUM (Scottish unionist media)!
@ Alan Mackintosh – I got half way through the IWU paper last night before I had to call it a day. It is a closely argued paper full of references to all the items we raise here, and more. Will return to it today. Well done the Independent Workers Union!
@ X_Sticks – I too was amazed by what I was hearing on Good Morning Scotland e.g. that Nicola Sturgeon was received with rock star adulation in Ireland and that the IR openly backed Independence in an unprecedented show of support. I’m astonished!
Socrates MacSporran says:
3 December, 2016 at 8:08 am
As some regular Wingers will no doubt be aware, Allan Massie, young Alex’s far-more erudite and learned father, writes a regular rugby and cricket column in The Scotsman on a Saturday.
Some years ago, at a time when change was being mooted in the way Scottish club rugby worked, Allan wrote a piece in which he suggested a phenomenon he identified as: “Aye Beenism” was the biggest hold-up to progress in the game.
This is the situation whereby, someone suggests a change, only to be met by: “Naw, son, ye canna dae that, its aye been done this way”.
Usually found in the company of the Black “Abbot”.
“Ah but ye canny dae it that wey, ye jist canny”.
Having read the presentation by Aiden Mc Neill QC, I know we are now going to win.
The clincher is the yearly oath taken by the Queen to the Church of Scotland. In no other part of this Kingdom does this occur. It positively proves her duty to the Scottish people rather than the other way round.
They can try to stop us but I firmly believe now that the English public will want us gone after this case.
Link to Independent Workers of Great Britain paper for those who missed it in last thread:
link to supremecourt.uk
That pretty much sums up EXACTLY where its headed. Neatly done Chris.
The Scottish government were tasked by their electorate two years ago of working as part of the union. The Scottish electorate then voted in 2015 and 2016 parliamentary elections for a party with decidedly pro EU credentials. Finally, a little over five months ago, the Scottish electorate tasked our government with remaining a member of the EU. So far, so obvious to anyone with an open mind and the eyes to see.
Their job since June has been a near impossible attempt to square a constitutional circle they did in no way ask for. That being to respect both ballots and retain membership of both unions (as instructed).
The government of the UK however does NOT recognise the right or electoral will of the Scottish public. Its UK OWNERSHIP right or wrong. Its sink or sail together. Its what is yours is mine and what’s mine is my own. They don’t mind the tax base. They’re quite fond of the resources and they do so love the landscape. How and ever they’re decidedly not too fond of the voter base. No, not fond at all. Apparently we’re a bit noisy as lodgers.
Still, so long as they have electoral weight on one side of the border and the same applies in the commons its no big thing. It also helps that devolution is in the gift of the Westminster parliament by the by. Well, it doesn’t really matter what Scotland’s electorate think on pretty much anything.
So long as…
Now it appears that despite the best efforts of Scotland’s government to square that circle, it is the UK government who are dead set on removing any possibility of the Scottish electorate retaining membership of both unions. They are in fact narrowing the choice down of their own volition.
No one is forcing this novel approach to diplomacy and ‘partnership’ from them. This economic and constitutional clusterfuck is ALL their own work.
So, its up to the Scottish electorate to decide. What impossible feat do you want your government in Holyrood to attempt next? Or, should we just cut to the chase and instruct our government to give us a very different and far, far simpler solution? 🙂
weechid @ 10.19amM/i>
The “Abbot” is now dead, but, sadly, Aye Beenism still flourishes.
Artistically and factually perfect Chris,the only thing missing is Fluffy, Sec.of State for Wot?land’s, brown nose and the packed lunch he carries in his beard.Great stuff,we are lucky to have you on our side.Thank you.
Peace Always
Ps Here, in the south of Scotland, we have the great misfortune of having his Progeny,proving,on a daily basis that the apple falls close to the tree.Even when said tree is Hollow.
A cartoonist who can actually draw! Great stuff, Chris.
Time for that stocking filler.
Let’s call it for what it is:
When unionists say they won’t allow us use of the pound sterling – that’s a blockade. When unionist say they won’t allow us to negotiate Brexit – that’s a blockade!
Your weekend reading:
Nicola Sturgeon charms the Irish: link to wp.me
A simple review of a simple film: link to wp.me
Hammond and a May are going to get voted down. The Tories, Adrian O’Neil, and the Greens are all illegally lining their pockets with public money. They are all a bunch of twa faced greedy hypocritical liars who are going to get voted out. Could they make a bigger mess to muck up the world econony? What a shower.
Independence is the only way out if it. They will try to muck that up too.
Hammond as Defence Secretary, said it would take three years to move Trident and £27Billion. (Scotland should pay for it?) Then revise it to some other time scale. Another load of nonsense lies. In three years it costs £30Billion to maintain. £10Billion a year of support. Money down the drain. It would be cheaper to get rid if it. It is obsolete. Hammond sneered and laughed at Scottish Independence and Scotland having a Navy to patrol it’s shores. Trident will be going with Brexit. Hammond et al could go at the next election, soon. Scotland could gain Independence.
Vote SNP/SNP. Vote for Independence.
Excellent Chris!
You have captured here the very essence of the WM strategy for IndyRef#2.
Which is pretty much the same as IndyRef#1.
1) Make it a binary choice – Indy or Union. (At least, at the beginning, make it APPEAR a binary choice). In short – they tell us at the start that there is NO THIRD WAY.
2) Hold that position for as long as possible and right to the end of the campaign if circumstances permit.
3) IF the polls tighten then come in with the last minute contingency plan – the purdah-breaking VOW2. Ensure VOW2 is worded in a very convincing manner with big words, ensuring, naturally, that the big words are as flowery and as vague as they possibly can be in order to claim later (when you deliver precisely hee-haw) that you kept your word, that VOW2 has been delivered.
It is the oldest trick in the book. Make people think it is a binary choice but keep the Ace up the sleeve to split the YES vote when needed; get the soft YESERS to break rank.
And THAT is what we need to be ready to combat. The Soft-Yesers need to be reminded – right from the start of the campaign – that they will be given all manner of convincing sounding promises towards the end of the campaign by the WM Establishment. And they need to be reminded that they will SHAFT YOU and not deliver once you have given them your No vote.
Remember what they did in 2014 and what happened to all those lovely sounding promises in the 2014 VOW.
Remember Broon and the BBC pumping out the Devo-Max narrative. Remember how the Yoons conspired to give us as little as they could in the Smith Commission, Labour being the worst offenders.
Remember just how all those rUK Tories fell out of the WM bars to vote down every single SNP amendment to the Scotland Bill that would have made The Vow somewhere towards meaningful.
Remember it. They will promise you the Earth with their weasel words and, once they have your vote, they will give you sweet FA.
Remember that when you go out to vote in IndyRef#2.
As I mentioned earlier the GMS this morning was a revelation. If you didn’t catch it I would recommend you listen to the first half hour of the programme. If only we got this sort of coverage of the brexit situation all the time. There would be no question Scotland would be independent very soon.
You can catch it here on Iplayer:
link to bbc.co.uk
Aiden O’Neill opinion piece in Scottish Legal News, June 2016. Seems very positive to me:
” what has happened is not that the UK as a whole has voted to leave the EU but that England has voted to secede from the Union (both British and European) leaving Scotland (possibly in confederation with NI) as the faithful remnant ready and able to maintain their EU membership which needs only to be slightly re-jigged, but not fundamentally altered, to take account of England’s (& Wales’) secession.”
link to scottishlegal.com
Methinks the tories are trying to force the SG to hold IndyRef 2 early (while they think they can still win it). Before the BREXIT bite, demographic yoon decline and other factors all kick in and come together to make a vote for independence inevitable.
If the tories can force an early referendum and narrowly win it (even 51% NO they would accept and use as a mandate), they will neuter the Scottish parliament, strip the remaining assets from Scotland and legislate to prohibit another constitutional referendum for 30 years.
We really cannot afford to lose the next one, folks. Timing is everything.
Capella says:
That really is the whole situation in a nutshell.
The problem is, because of Project Greater England they are blinkered to the fact that England is not the UK. Scotland (and NI) needn’t follow on their coat tails.
Capella, X Sticks, re GMS today, I’m pretty sure that the difference is that it was Isabel Fraser who was presenting and (I think ) Eamonn O Neill? who was discussing the papers. (I think he does the bit with Stuart Cosgrove on John Beattie show on Thurs after FMQ’s.) If you remember both Isabel and Ken MacDonald both got parked in obscurity in the run up to Indyref 1.
Thanks for reposting that link to the Intervention. Thats a good source document.
Here’s another good one…
“The reason, therefore, why Scotland is exempt from this jurisdiction [of habeas corpus] is, that it extends only over the dominions which prior to the Union were dominions of the crown of England, and Scotland was never part of the dominions of the crown of England.
The King of Scotland came also to be King of England, but this did not make Scotland subject to the crown of England.”
Aidan O’Neil has changed his tune. An habitual liar.
Aidan O’ Neil did not support Independence. He said the Indy Referendum was illegal and tried to get it banned. Yet claims to be a Human rights lawyer,
Aidan O’Neil is a charlatan. In the same Matrix chambers as Cherie Blair, who benefits financially from illegal wars, banking fraud and tax evasion. Killing and maiming millions of innocent people. Habitual liars for personal gain. Enough is never enough.
It certainly concentrates minds when their lucrative business, often paid for by massive public remuneration comes under threat, They certainly make a mess of it. They should be held to account. Blair even has the nerve to put his head above the parapet, Aided by Gove. A public official bribed by the crooked MSM curtesy of his associate ‘journalist’ wife qrqemuneration. Most of them should be in jail for crimes against humanity.
What a tangled web they weave, when they try to succeed and muck up the world economy.
Luigi says:
That would mean they have a level of sophistication in strategic planning which we see little evidence of!
However, you could be right. While they are struggling to formulate a Brexit plan, it seems probable that two things are likely. Firstly the want to show they have achieved immigration control and secondly avoided being seen as giving Scotland special treatment (again, as the South British would see it).
That means at minimum, hard erring Brexit for the whole UK. They must have the wit to realise IndyRef2 is therefore highly likely.
Given that scenario, when would they wish it to happen? ASAP!
The SNP/SG strategy of proposing reasonable ‘middle ground’ options, and having them continually knocked back allows time for more NOs to see the light. And, as you say, the harsh reality of Brexit to become increasingly apparent.
LOL
When I saw the triumphalist headlines on the Telegraph in the newsagent the other day I smiled quietly to myself and thought “the pieces of the jigsaw are dropping into place and we are hardly having to lift a finger”.
@ Alan Mackintosh – I decided to print it out as it’s easier to read. It’s 24 pages long. Will sit down with a cup of coffee later to enjoy going through it.
Re Isobel Fraser GMS, I only hope she survives this morning’s interviews. Even Gordon Brewer sounded less hostile. Crivens!
Another one for the Infamous Ledger: link to wp.me
Well done, Chris. I love you and Moodie (yes, I know you are mortal enemies?)
Really horrendous hate piece by Mail online on the 11 judges sitting on the case next week.
We expect it from the Heil, but it’s the lack of political condemnation that is so hellish.
Great cartoon,love wee Fluffy gazing adoringly at his hero – he’s such a creep.
Re GMS, Isobel Fraser is sadly sidelined and that boor Gary Robertson punts the unionist propaganda.
I know some folk on here don’t rate twitter,but BBC Scotland News has been getting pelters all week for their dire coverage of Nicola’s historic visit to Ireland.
They even ‘bungled’ an audio interview with an Irish representative where half his words were blanked out.
They been called at best, ‘a bunch of amateurs’ and at worst ‘corrupt’.
Someone at sometime surely has to notice.
As for Sarah Smith, she swanned off to the USA and should be held to account as she is supposedly in charge
Here is link to the hate piece in Heil on the 11 judges. I feel dirty posting an archived link, but folk need to see this shit.
Lurkers, in particular, note this is where the UK is headed. Mob rule, orchestrated by the media to a willing audience, just like QT.
History shows us that the judiciary is often first to be vilified as somehow being ‘("Tractor" - Ed)s’, because the law becomes inconvenient.
This is a clarion call to the mob, and we should be scared. I’m not easily scared, nor one to promote fear, but someone correct me, if this is not to be feared.
link to archive.is
[…] a term that I first saw just today in the comments of this Wings blog. Socrates MacSporran (lol) […]
Excellent cartoon. I was going to call Fluffy Mundane a proudbut Uriah Heep but that would be to insult Heep since he had at least, unlike Mundane, a modicum of intelligence.
we’re now at Brexit Circus on the new Euro Line. The next decisions will decide if the UK travels through Scotland Yard break-up line to Sovreignty-upon -Thames and the Regrexit Terminal or to Nouveau Niche within the EU
link to eurofree3.wordpress.com
I used to really like listening to GMS at the weekend when Derek, Ken and Isabel took turns in presenting. Presumably Labour put pressure on the BBC hierarchy to ensure that the presenters were more Yoonist friendly and far less even-handed. What I really miss though, is the wit and easy charm with which the former presenters delivered the show. The BBC not only cranked the handle towards SNPbaaad a tad but they made the show a less interesting and enjoyable listen. The latter in broadcasting is unforgivable.
Sarah Smith was deployed to the US, along with the rest. Where Smith started by nepotism. Robertson etc. 100 years Official Secrets Act on Iraq and Dunblane. Official child abuse.
Renton and a Campbell to London. Brewer’s contract is at an end. More cuts to BBC Scotland curtesy from London HQ. All services being cut because the majority do not watch or listen. No market. Gary Smith is not up the the job. A London placeman. They are destroying their own industry by telling lies. No balance. Fifty years of Labour. Webs of deceit.
Lord Hall claims the BBC is not biased. More cuts on the way.
May and Hammond are not certainly listening to their constituents. They could find themselves out of a job. How low can they go? Fail, fall even more.
Please come back Heedtracker. You are needed to hold the back. Missing you.
No wonder Football is in a state. Letting paedophiles run the Clubs. No wonder the terraces are empty. Politics and religion. If only it was only a game.
The Opium of the people Football and shopping, The Cathedrals of consumerism. Religion is in decline.
I demand a Europhile rating ***** at least, arrest me if you like Daily Mail I’ll go down squealing as I’m dragged in front of the UKIP court of Justice to be sentenced to listen to tapes of Paul Nuttall for life and continuous slides of Mundells beard eating
Comedy’s always fun but this is a reality of the most horrific kind these far right monsters are brainwashing and practically threatening the English to not co-operate with anybody but to condemn all who stand in defence of Liberty and Freedom and are we to wait for long before the headlines in these awful publications start screaming for Martial Solutions against, well, us
Are the Scots the current Jews? The Daily Mail seems to think so, but then again the Daily Mail hates anything and anybody who doesn’t comply with………………………you know the rest
@Capella says: 3 December, 2016 at 8:20 am:
“Green Party has suggested an independent Scotland could take over the UK’s membership of the European Union as England, Wales and Northern Ireland leave the bloc.
Monica Frassoni said when East and West Germany unified in 1990, Germany became an expanded state in the EU without having to negotiate special new terms for the eastern part of the country to enter.!
That Green Party Lady is almost correct but it is actually far simpler than she thinks.
All that is required is for the European UNION Parliament to officially recognises what the meaning of the member state’s title, “The UNITED Kingdom”, actually legally means.
The European UNION is, in itself, not a single entity but is a UNION of disparate independent states. Thus it must realize that the UNITED Kingdom is also a UNION of two independent states.
Thus the UNITED Kingdom could no more legally take the Kingdom of Scotland out of the European UNION than can the European UNION allow, for example, an independent France take an independent Germany out of the European UNION.
It is only because the Westminster Establishment has assumed it has full sovereignty over the Kingdom of Scotland and has brainwashed the World, as well as the people of Scotland, that what is titled a UNITED Kingdom is not actually a UNITED Kingdom but, as they keep miscalling it a country but that the country they speak of is, “Britain”, when parts of the Britain they speak of are not under Westminster governance.
If the EU Parliament recognises that the UNITED Kingdom is in truth a bipartite UNION of kingdoms then they must rule that one of those kingdoms cannot force the other out of the European UNION.
The Express is at it as well. Death warrants for the Lords
“A Downing Street minister insisted the Prime Minister is confident the Lords “would not dare” vote down Article 50 – thereby blocking the result of the EU referendum.
The minister said: “If the Lords were seen to be frustrating the will of the people to an extent, it might well be the case that they are signing their own death warrant.”
@Smallaxe says: 3 December, 2016 at 10:32 am:
” … only thing missing is Fluffy, Sec.of State for Wot?land’s, brown nose and the packed lunch he carries in his beard.”
Err! Smallaxe, Should that not correctly read, “parked lunch”?
Mind you it seems to have been parked there well past its, “smell by”, date.
Unless of course that smell is because Fluffy has halitosis due to all the shite he blethers.
Ken500
“Please come back heedtracker”- seconded.
Re the appeal next week: I am trying to work out which result is best for indy. Obviously having the court endorse our sovereignty is to be welcomed, as is a defeat of the UK government but long term will this prove to prolong the union?
If brexit is derailed all hell will break loose, resentment south of the border will reach scary levels and the government may fall.
Or the whole situation, desperately needing resolution will get bogged down in a legal quagmire lasting years.
Or the vote goes to the commons and article 50 is endorsed and activated.
The repercussions for indy are positive but uncertain.
If the UK government triumphs then I see another indyref as a certainty and I am confident it would be far more winnable.
I would be interested to know if I am missing something… the result seems less vital compared with A the high court decision and B the supreme court accepting our intervention.
Ken500 says:
3 December, 2016 at 12:50 pm
Please come back Heedtracker. You are needed to hold the back. Missing you.
Ruby replies
Heedtracker might just need a bit of a break! I know how he feels it’s never pleasant when you are insulted by others on this forum and it’s probably better to walk away and have a break.
@Ken and Tam
“Please come back heedtracker”… thirded
…and Nana and john king and caz-m…..etc
Tam Jardine says:
There are paths through all this which would mean no IndyRef2 anytime soon. The SP court is likely to back the high court decision and A50 will be triggered by parliament. I suppose that makes a soft Brexit inside the EEA more likely. Such an outcome makes IndyRef2 seem unlikely.
A hard Brexit would make IndyRef2 a certainty. UKIP and the Tory loony right expect hard Brexit.
The final outcome will be one of two solutions, firstly what the EU want or secondly a walk away from that by the Tories. The Tories ‘cake and eat it’ is a non starter.
Will the EU want the UK in the EEA? My personal view is no because the UK has to be seen to suffer, not win a good deal.
That certainly makes it all the more interesting. It depends on whether the court says Holyrood gets to vote on A50, or the final deal. Holyrood will vote for a minimum of EEA and reject anything harder. Would WM simply ignore Holyrood? They could but that would hasten IndyRef2, if not be the final straw.
The game plan from a Scottish perspective is clearly three stage. 1) get a UK wide EEA solution, failing that 2) a Scotland EEA solution, and failing that 3) IndyRef2.
I think it is becoming clear 2) won’t happen. So we are at the stage of … will or won’t it be EEA.
“If the Lords were seen to be frustrating the will of the people to an extent, it might well be the case that they are signing their own death warrant.”
Given the intemperate nature of the Brexiteers they may mean that literally.
I see the survey did top 2m so cue the Yoons ripping up their Blow to Sturgeon scripts and dusting off “the all 2m were completed by three cybernats in the Yes Bar in Glasgow” version 🙂
@Valerie
No, you’re not wrong. There is a great deal to fear in the right wing press manipulation of public opinion. ‘Course the Heil in this instance seems oblivious of the irony in their article.
An article condemning the idea of an unelected judiciary supposedly holding the power to alter the will of the people and a democratic mandate. To pass judgement and legislate without a mandate of their own.
And the Mail is doing what precisely today?
Some might say acting as judge, jury and executioner. Passing judgement of their own on the careers and characters of those judges. Basically telling their readerships what the final judgement should be on these folks.
But then the Mail is good at passing judgement on others. Telling folks who to hate, who to condemn, who to marginalise and who to punish.
The Mail lives to hate and hates those who wish to truly live.
Not to beat about the bush, let’s call the Mail what it actually is. Evil.
Wherever your Europe is, it is important that each country gives its own national political life a sense of purpose to progressively reform the collective EU space where our destinies are shaped. For example whilst the European Commission ‘tax shames’ some of the biggest corporations who are fiddling their taxes so it should attend to directing the market to achieve the aims of decent capitalism, upholding and harmonising worker’s rights, employment and wage conditions and a commitment to reform the banking sector, promoting governance beyond the nation state and protecting the social welfare system.
The EU stewardship of green technology and renewable energies, integrating environmental requirements into other policies, and the EUs contribution to equal status law across a number of domains e.g. organisation of working time ( EC 93/104) gender inequality (EEC 75/117) are cause for celebration.
Scotland is already flexing its political muscle within the EU as a nation state. It is a nation in waiting- getting its ducks in a row and preparing for its next step. UKOK is a sitting duck within firing range and will be out-manoeuvred as it blunders on with its Hard Brexit and caricature simplification of all things European vs the Great Britons.
We live in times of globalised modernity not past inglorious imperialism.
Robert Peffers:
I stand corrected,Sir.
🙂
Peace Always
Croompenstein:
I can not speak for the others,but Nana informed me on O/T that she is taking a break for now.She assured me that she would be back soon.
I agree with you on the subject of heedtracker et al.Now is not the time to let disagreements split us up.
Use the heed my friend, come back with the others who have forsaken us,we will give you first bite at the fatted calf.
Peace Love and Harmony to All Wingers
Re heedtracker.
He will come back the minute I mention Park of Keir.
Strange bedfellows, the Tory-UKIP “all fall down together” Brexiteers have. I have just been listening to R4’s Any answers and in full-on support of a hard Brexit up pops a Scots accent belonging to one Tom Burns, who was described by Stu in a previous article
link to wingsoverscotland.com
on prize-winning BritNat loonies as:
Hmmm, nothing much has changed there, it seems.
The ASLEF BritNat connection seems to be surfacing quite a lot recently, and not just Burns’ use of the BBC in support of a Tory Brexit. We’ve also had this Tory-ASLEF combined assault on the SG over Scotrail. Makes me even begin to wonder if these recent train “breakdowns” are being “engineered”.
Nana is having a well deserved (health) break. Thanks Nana. Missing you x
John King (health scare?) and others went over to twitter
Heedtracker has no excuse. Come back. Now. Under another guise? Don’t let some folk get you down. Especially not the ‘psycho bastards’.
What happened to ‘Meths’? Scotsman long ago. A Scotsman English teacher early retired to Spain. With property in Glasgow. Mate of Grahamski Joyce. Or was it just an apparition? Those were the days. When ‘wee speech’ mattered. To keep up with the ‘Press’ before JP wiped it all away and mucked up their own nest. La Bon write enough. Sinking like a burst ballon.
ENGLAND’S BLIND SPOT ….
… has been there since 1707. A view of the Union completely corrupted and distorted by Imperial greed and the belief that the English ruling classes are superior to all others across the world, continuing to this day, and embodied for all to see, in the persons of Theresa May and Phillip Hammond. Talk about ‘lording it over us, and making their presence felt’.
Until now. Hopefully.
” what has happened is not that the UK as a whole has voted to leave the EU but that England has voted to secede from the Union (both British and European) leaving Scotland (possibly in confederation with NI) as the faithful remnant ready and able to maintain their EU membership which needs only to be slightly re-jigged, but not fundamentally altered, to take account of England’s (& Wales’) secession.”
link to scottishlegal.com
Obsessed with Dependence…
link to imgur.com
@Robert J Sutherland
I always find the Labour position with their unions odd
They like Unions but don’t support the European one, they support the Britnat Union which given the chance would dissolve any notion of Unions altogether
Maybe that’s why they abstain so much on everything because every day brings a new opportunity to change their minds from the day before
As for the trains “breakdowns” I wouldn’t disagree with your guess, sometimes things just seem too fortuitous (raises eybrow)
Why has Heedtracker left?
I must have missed something.
Teresa May has £1000 leather trousers and accessories. A tax evaded £Multimillions benefits fund.
The Tory/Gov are funding the right wing Press with £5Million of public money adverts. + £Billions printing Gov leaflets and literature. Plus threats & ‘D’ notices. The UK Gov controls the Press. The unelected UK Gov committed electoral fraud in 31 Constituencies. Along with UIKP electoral fraud. Illegally funding a political Party with public money.
@ Heedtracker
Trivial arguments.
Nailed it again Chris!
—————-:
Things are certainly shaping up re appeal next week. Skip full of popcorn ordered!
Heed? C’mon…ah miss ye…we aw dae 🙂
Footie is nothing to write home to your mother about so try this.
The High Court’s Brexit ruling is a product of our ‘post-truth’ age.
link to archive.is
Dicey strongly maintains that ‘the electorate is in fact the sovereign of England’. The whole people act through a ‘supreme legislature’ whose conduct is ‘regulated by understandings of which the object is to secure the conformity of Parliament to the will of the nation’.
Lollysmum says:
3 December, 2016 at 9:59 am
“Wonder if you ever get tired of standing ovations?”
I do not know about her, but I certainly do not get tired of listening to her and seeing her receiving standing ovations.
I have listened to the speech in your link and I have to say that I have the greatest admiration and respect for this lady.
Not only is she a wonderful and convincing speaker but she also speaks from the heart and I can see that she is fighting really hard for Scotland and using every opportunity that she can.
To me, today, she is the only high profile politician in the UK that actually is leading from the front and acting rather than reacting. She is without a doubt a mile and a half above the quality level of any of the current unionist UK politicians and in a completely different league to the bunch of amateurs that we have as unionist branches’ leaders in Scotland.
I have a great sense of pride that such an intelligent, articulate, active, strong and determined person is our First Minister because with a person like that it is impossible not to take Scotland seriously.
Making the ‘devolved’ Scottish Parliament and the ‘devolved’ Scottish Government permanent in the Scotland Act 2016, will have messed up a few submissions to the Supreme Court…
link to en.m.wikipedia.org
“Devolution differs from federalism in that the devolved powers of the subnational authority may be temporary and are reversible, ultimately residing in the central government. Thus, the state remains de jure unitary. Legislation creating devolved parliaments or assemblies can be repealed or amended by central government in the same way as any statute.”
So if the Scottish Parliament and the Scottish Government are no longer ‘devolved’ because they are permanent.. what kind of parliament and government are they?
@call me dave
Unionists have a wonderful way of rewriting history and the law and then claiming that it’s so
Because they said so (and there are more of them FACT) so there!
Lest we forget…
link to imgur.com
The Scots Parliament “reconvened” so it never went away!!
BBC
Winnie Ewing reconvened the Scottish Parliament for the first time in 292 years.
Dr Ewing became an SNP MSP in the first Holyrood elections. As the oldest member, she chaired the first meeting on 12 May 1999.
Opening the session, the 79-year-old said: “I want to start with the words that I have always wanted either to say or to hear someone else say – the Scottish Parliament, which adjourned on March 25, 1707, is hereby reconvened.
link to news.bbc.co.uk
It is subservient to the people of Scotland.
Bob Mack @10:19am
England needs it’s independence as much as Scotland, as there is no potential for a sustainable English society without the infrastructure necessary to function as a modern democracy.
England needs it’s own Parliament and law to curb the excesses of a medievalist Establishment and a culture of hereditary privilege.
Best of luck England.
link to un.org
@ Robert Peffers – it wasn’t me who quoted on the Green Party. Sorry, I can’t see who made the comment – I’ve been out all day and haven’t caught up yet with the comments.
@ Heedtracker – You’ve had a nice long rest now but it’s time you got back to telling us how Rancid The Graun is trying to fool us now. Pretty please.
@Dr Jim (12.59) –
‘…sentenced to listen to tapes of Paul Nuttall for life and continuous slides of Mundells beard eating.’
🙂
Not often I LOL here, but that did it for me.
Soo-perbly nightmarish.
I’ve been busy with this and that, mostly that, so I haven’t been keeping up with the threads.
What nonsense is this I hear about Heedtracker going AWOL?
Whatever it is ye’re up tae, ya big belter, stop it and get yersel back here!
🙂
Leather trousers – cow bag
THIS!
link to weegingerdug.wordpress.com
From WoS Twitter…
link to twitter.com
Story in the Courier (sorry, tried to do the archive thing but didn’t work.)
link to thecourier.co.uk
Adam Tompkins MSP (Tory) now thinks companies shouldn’t pay tax at all.
Prof Tomkins, a law academic and Tory MSP, said a “great constitutional principle” is there should be “no taxation without representation”.
I think that was the rationale for the US independence from the UK. A very American slogan. (But look! Even companies in the US pay tax!)
Let’s see. Companies benefit from tax-payer funded infrastructure such as roads, harbours, water and sewarage, national power grid etc., companies benefit from tax-payer funded education that provides a skilled workforce, companies benefit from tax-payer funded healthcare for their skilled workforce, companies benefit from tax-payer funded research and development in the universities…
Tory Tompkins idea seems to be that companies should just take, take, take, and not give anything back. The Tory way.
I especially liked Patrick Harvie’s withering comment: “sounded like a 2am tweet from Donald Trump.”
Capella says:
@ Heedtracker – You’ve had a nice long rest now but it’s time you got back to telling us how Rancid The Graun is trying to fool us now. Pretty please.
Indeed, skiver. 😉
Has anyone ever seen the equivalent of the proud Scot buts who regularly comment on the FM’s tweets when she congratulates Scottish sporting achievement. You know the ones who retort with ‘yes but he/she is British’..
Has anyone ever seen an English sporting achievement being lauded and then some big tae comes on and says ‘ yes but they’re British’ … naw me neether..
fair rips ma ringer 🙁
So Tompkins doesn’t want companies to pay tax? Does that include nasty oversees companies like Amazon, Nissan, BMW and the like? After all they are all “johnny foreigner’s”.Oh, some don’t already!!
What a complete pillock is tory tompkins. Where’s ruthie gone after her pathetic BBC QT display. Puir wee soul- sitting next to dumberdore thinking “I’VE MADE IT” then confronted with the right wing “little englander” BREXIT crowd. Surely Tompkins would have sorted out that lot?
Maybe not, probably had other work in hand.
Glasgow Uni– do you pay tax? are you a charity? what a sweeze!
The fruit loops will be saying Stu filled in the survey 2m times..
link to twitter.com
Can’t wait to see the data for this..
Our favourite flip flopper has spoken.. we should be bricking it..
link to twitter.com
On the subject of companies contributing, not only tax.
Just a few days ago a new major motorway exit/junction was opened near where I live. It’s to give better HGV access to a new plant of a major dairy company in my country (making all kinds of innovative dairy products, like full milk that doesn’t boil over and burn!)
Here’s the thing. The junction was financed by a collaboration between the national road administration, the local council AND the company. Yep, this company, which pays its taxes, also contributed millions towards this specific project. Everybody’s a winner.
Imagine if the company had been like what Adam Tompkins seems to advocate. It wouldn’t have paid any taxes or contributed in any way, but still expected tax-payers to build that junction that benefits their business. My guess is that the junction would never have been built. Everybody’s a loser.
Rev Stu will be able to confirm this, if it be his wont, but I suspect Heedtracker is probably the all-time top commenter on WOS, numbers-wise.
I can’t think of anyone else who’s posted as consistently over the past, what, four years? More?
‘Will Ye No Come Back Again?’
*sniff*
I fear heedtracker is to Scotland’s independence what the ravens are to the Tower of London.
Gonnae no heedie.
Not exactly OT as it appears that Scotland’s favourite part-time professor of yoonism, Prof. Tomkins, now wishes Scotland’s democratically elected Government adopt the same medievalist approach to democratic participation as the Corporation of the City of London.
The man is increasingly looking a bit of a neo-fascist, neo-feudalism freak, IMHO. Do you think he willfully ignores the “RIGHT TO DEVELOPMENT”?
link to citymayors.com
Like some others I think I missed what the heedtracker situation is about.
If you are reading this Heeds, your contributions are invaluable to this site, me on the other hand write bollocks 99.9% most of the time, if something has pissed you off, just ignore it we all sing from the same hymn sheet.
Big Love man, this is the .1% where I am not writing bollocks.
Murdo Fraser tweets about how happy he is that UKIP might have a chance of winning a seat in Scotland
Thing is, if they do win a seat who are they most likely to take it from, coz it wont be the SNP or the Greens, so that only leaves Murdos own party the Ruth Davidson party or The Torylite abstain party under the Dug
And it certainly would never be the Lib Dems because the Joseph Rowntree Foundation would buy every vote and house in the village and have Alistair Carmichael evict every living soul before they’d let that happen (and that’s a self talking truth) as a learned judge might say
I fear Murdo has lost control of what little grasp on his mind he ever had, and his boss, Ruth (whom he obviously has no respect for) should be whipping him into line (after having said that I’ve just realised what I said) the man has no control over his shrieks of No Surrender no matter the cost to Scotland
Does Murdo seriously think that would look good to Mr and Mrs Average when a UKIP in Scotland joins forces with any Scottish politician at Holyrood
Well, as wee Mairi Black says “Hell slap it intae ye”
This should also be a wake up call for Alex Rowley to get on with it and stop messing about putting up with his infantile boss because she’ll stand by and just let it happen (but in a whiny voice)
Ken500, Meths with the plunge pool, that Meths who invited a few folk over to have a party in said plunge pool when we got our independence?
Chris , brilliant as ever and I too love the snivelling wretch Mundell. He really turns my stomach.
Just wondering if heedtracker was doing duty on Rancid the Grun, so had a quick look and haven’t seen so far, but did see this:
“…we have a small favour to ask. More people are reading the Guardian than ever but far fewer are paying for it.”
LOLZ
Wee bit O/T
I see Farage is licking the shi*e from Trumpets shoes.
Pathetic.
Expect Farage to be cleaning toilets at a golf course near you.
Re. ASLEF. The unions have evolved to become part of the infrastructure underpinning British National Socialism. They now function as a ‘gesture’ component of corporatist Britain and help to maintain the most unequal society in Europe.
@ASLEF
link to un.org
Come back, Heed!
Has your Slovene girlfriend chucked you? I telt ya, she is a nasty piece.
Great image once again, especially like the fundily mundily looking creepingly in awe at his master.
Wonder what the WM unionists have up their dirty sleeves regards Scotland, put nothjng at all past them.
Heedtracker, come back! Missing your comments hugely, always the ones most likely to make me laugh put loud, what do we have to do to get you back on WoS?
Ditched a long term so called friend (on fb) yesterday, they have ignored my messages for weeks and reneged on an important promise, last straw. I also informed a family member who does not speak to me at all, to stop putting our old family photos on facebook without asking! Feel much better, and don’t do these things lightly, but if someone is p****g you off, and it can’t be ignored, tell them in the nicest possible way to take a hike! It is cathartic.
Have a great Saturday night all.
A song for Heedtracker
link to youtube.com
Along with many others here, I imagine, I was at the SNP National Council today, listening to Nicola’s address. One interesting thing is that she made a specific point to the audience that those who voted leave needed to consider the effects of Brexit on the country. In other words, the party was not going to step away from its pro-EU position under her leadership.
And on the subject of standing ovations…National Council has no media present, so there was a distinct sense of ‘oh, do we have to?’ as the audience climbed to its feet. Bolshy lot, we Scots 🙂
Dr Jim says:
3 December, 2016 at 4:31 pm
@call me dave
Unionists have a wonderful way of rewriting history and the law and then claiming that it’s so
Because they said so (and there are more of them FACT) so there!
———–
@kininvie –
Good to see you posting.
You may have been doing so every day for all I know, but I’ve just missed them…
The inexplicable departure of ‘Heedy’ has been a bit of a shocker, so it’s comforting to see ‘an old face’, if you’ll pardon the expression.
😉
lumilumi
That happens over here as well lumilumi , common practice. My problem with the Scottish planning system is not that it doesn’t attempt to follow best practice, it is that it attempts to do so in an environment that prevents a positive outcome i.e. the ideological construct of Britain.
link to en.wikipedia.org
Meths was the first person I ever interacted with on the internet.
There was a merry band of us on the Scotsman, kent by various names.
Banded by Fifi into “Vile Cybernats”. How that has rebounded eh?
WOS archive links for May 2012 now over on O/T.
lumilumi
I’ll get over myself one of these days. 🙂
That happens over here as well lumilumi , common practice. My problem with the Scottish planning system is not that it doesn’t attempt to follow best practice, it is that it attempts to do so in an environment that prevents the best possible outcome i.e. the ideological construct of Britain.
lumilumi
Honest mate, one of these days. 🙂
link to en.wikipedia.org
As we as we know kids, poor early development leads to compromised individuals (see Mungo).
A Bad Fit Means Sad Feet
link to youtube.com
It’s not the trousers I’m worried about, the British state offers the wrong shoes for Scotland.
Honestly Heed, ye need tae at least let us aw know yer awright. You’re Wings essential reading btl, ye ur needed man!
Wings withoot Heed is like roses withoot thorns…will ye no come back tae rip the OK oot the UKOK…puhlease?
Stu did that zoomstation post the list of WoS twitter followers?..
Just seen a post on twitter from Doug Daniel saying the national survey exceeded 2mil. 🙂
On yer marks….
As I have been saying since the Brexit result, it is a complete waste of time to find a special EU deal for Scotland as a colony of England.
Neither the UK, nor the EU would allow it.
As I said then, Nicola should have called an independence referendum immediately after the Brexit result.
Just like Cameron had announced EVEL immediately after the Scottish referendum result.
If Brexit happens, the Scottish colony also Brexits, no ifs no buts.
@Alan Mackintosh says: 3 December, 2016 at 11:21 am:
“The King of Scotland came also to be King of England, but this did not make Scotland subject to the crown of England.”
The really startling bit, Alan, is the historic events that led to the situation and, as I’ve been trying to get across for a long time is how these events today tie in with the history of what sovereignty actually is and how this shaped the different legal systems.
Sovereignty is basically the belief that there actually is a God. From that belief stems the belief that by a direct result of God choosing what class you were born into you were either a royal or a serf.
This dictated the law of, “Divine Right”, and that evolved into the laws that ruled the different kingdoms of Christendom. If you were born into the royal line, (and Royal lines came from the basic fact that, “Might is Right”, and the strongest ruled the weakest.
So Divine Right law dictated that if you inherited a crown you owned the Kingdom and everything, and everyone, in it. You chose who you gave lands to for services rendered and could take that away as easily as you granted it. It went further than that.
If you, as a monarch, defeated another Monarch it meant God had chosen you as the victor and you demanded fealty from the loser. You were his/her overlord and you owned him/her and all his/her kingdom and you could just add your new possession to your existing kingdom.
This then developed so that if you married into another royal family and it ended with your royal partner inheriting the crown from their parent then, and males owned their wives, you thus added that kingdom to your existing kingdom.
However, Scotland broke that legal system up for the Kingdom of Scotland in 1320 by the Declaration of Arbroath. The significance of that was it was accepted by the Pope who was God’s top Earthly representative. The rest of Christendom continued on as before.
When James VI of Scotland inherited the Kingdom of England which, under divine right. had annexed both Wales and Ireland The English Kingdom was still ruled under divine right and the only thing that prevented James VI becoming king of the entire British Isles was the fact he, under Scots law, was not sovereign and thus could not tag the three country Kingdom of England onto the Scottish Kingdom.
The English Kingdom did not change the law of Divine Right until 1688 and that was only a slight tweak to the law of divine right as it still kept the Monarchy as the sovereign.
So James remained as James I of England and VI of Scotland and that was the main reason for the English Parliament who deposed their monarch in 1688 and imported King Billy and Queen Mary as equal Monarchs on condition they legally delegated their Royal Sovereignty of divine right to the parliament of England but incongruously were still legally sovereign.
Thus, in 1707, there was still the inconsistency between the two legal systems that meant they could not be harmonised.
Just think that if The Bruce Had not killed the Red Comyn, and thus had not got him and all Scotland excommunicate, then the Declaration of Arbroath would not have happened and the whole of Britain would have become the Kingdom of Scotland in 1603 as both kingdom would still have been under the laws of Divine Right of Kings.
@Macart
Aye a good number that and a gold mine of info.
They will demand the results be published.
PS:
Saw this twice earlier on and suddenly on the third look, who do I notice lurking & grinning in the background.
link to archive.is
There will be no holding him at FMQs if its his shottie to ask a silly question. 🙂
I’m putting in my plea.
You’d better come back Heedy Gonzales!
I’m fed up trawling the Guardian 🙂
@Rock –
Few folk here even bother to respond to you.
No one likes a smartarse, and even fewer like one who is so utterly boring.
It would be easy to select – at random – just one of Heedtracker’s comments which contained more wit and information than you’ve conveyed in the totality of yours.
Ye’re a boring fud.
None of us yet know what the National survey shows,
but we do know what the Unionist fearties think it shows because they’re already thinking up excuses all over the place to discredit anything it does show
And what does that show?
Just like the Bisto advert the fear is wafting
Croompenstein
Aye- I miss long term absentees caz-m and John as well (though caught up with caz at the Glesca Green thing)
OT
Spotted this piece Fasial Islam linked to on sky outlining Corbyn’s grand plan: link to archive.is
“Labour will seek to amend the Government’s Brexit bill if the Supreme Court allows a debate in Parliament, Jeremy Corbyn says.
The Labour leader told Sky News his party wants an amendment to ensure Britain maintains access to Europe’s markets, workers’ rights and environmental protection measures.
He said: “When the Article 50 debate comes up, we will put forward an amendment to it, about market access and protections. We want those to be part of the negotiations.”
Now forgive me if I am wrong but isn’t that just typical bleedin labour. If the government has to approach the commons with a vote to trigger article 50 that is a binary decision. The decision will be whether to empower HMG to trigger article 50 and negotiate on behalf of the UK. Whether a labour amendment states “HMG should strain every sinew to retain maximum access to the single market” like the vow it will just be words. There are no grades of leaving the EU: you are in or you are out and if you are out you may negotiate aspects of the EU or favourable trading terms.
But they will be just that: negotiations.
Corbyn wants to become relevant to the process now he has resigned himself to acquiescing with the government. He wants to attach himself to some kind of favourable brexit deal. Is it called triangulation? More like strangulation! The old UK establishment trick: present the worse possible scenario then backtrack so the watered down poison seems more palatable.
Well it a poor bloody show for an old fashioned labour man. I presume he is committed to solidarity with workers across the EU, with the European Convention on Human Rights, the Working Time Directive etc? Committed to saving British jobs, no?
What is it about labour these days? They have lost their fucking way big time. Johnson and the Morons must be punching the air now they know Corbyn is ready to vote for Brexit albeit with a little phrase added in about getting the best deal!!
Labour are doing that thing where an army retreats faster than their enemies can advance. It has become clear to me that there is one person in the UK capable of derailing this farcical, idiotic and xenophobic suicide mission and it Nicola Sturgeon. Sometimes I worry she may be doing her job too well. The mission was never to actually save the UK in tact!
Like a child playing cards, Corbyn is so please with his flush he brandishes his hand for all to see. What a betrayal of reason for an intellectual to make. I suppose this is going to be how Kez justifies getting behind Brexit?
I like the guy but what a loser he has turned out to be on one of the key battlegrounds for progressive politics today.
Rant over. Enjoy your weekend friends
RS just broadcast a great award acceptance speech by Billy Kay.
Don’t know where or when it happened, or what the award was for, but the reaction of the audience was great. Powerful independence message therein.
It went out approx 10.03, just there…great stuff.
@Robert Peffers
so England should have been extinguished as a nation,kingdom,country,and become a part of Scotland?
anyhoo,
as far as anyone knows(which is hee haw)Bruce did not kill Comyne it was Sir Roger Kirkpatrick,
and the motto, since then, of the Kirkpatrick clan is,
I`ll Mak Sikkar.
@ Robert Peffers, did you see my earlier post about Brenda reaffirming her oath every year to the Gen Assembly? Whats that all about?
@ Ian B, its at the Trad music awards I think. Caught the speech as well, but didnt catch what it was for.
Aye its queer how its Scotland in Union and the Ruth Davidson for a strong Opposition Party and her Westminster allies that are making the brouhaha anent independence and Chris has captured it there in grand style.
If they want us to belt up they should stop rattling our cage.
@Tam
I like the guy but what a loser he has turned out to be
I must admit that I got a bit worried when JC won the leadership
as I thought some of the weak yessers may fall for it but he soon showed his true ukoktoryboy(© Heedtracker) colours
link to wingsoverscotland.com
Rock @ 21:46,
Indyref2 would have been a dawdle had there been clear public acclaim for it at the time. Instead general opinion was not only static (unsurprising perhaps since the full consequences of Brexit were entirely uncomprehended) but also there was a sustained Leave backlash from self-declared Yes/SNP supporters who somehow preferred to have the UK autocratically drag their country out of the EU against the clear majority preference before they could bring themselves to support indy again.
It’s hard to move forward decisively when even a segment of your own support is making a lot of public noise against you, led on by malcontents like Sillars and Neil. Their selfish unrepresentative backstabbing was a tactical error of the first magnitude, but it had to be handled. From recent events and comments, I believe Nicola is succeeding in that.
Also, it’s the more-hesitant “no” voters that have to be converted now, but by their very nature they need to discover for themselves that a UK-led Brexit, despite the heavy-duty UK boosterism of the Yoon press and BBC, is the real economic car crash that they previously feared over indy.
It’s hard to endure the wait, but I believe that Nicola has the right temper of the situation, and that a crisis will come to a head, and sooner rather than later.
Let’s see what happens at the Supreme Court this coming week, for example. Even just from the legal submissions, the historical foundations of the UK are being revisited and revived as never before in the last 300 years. It’s changing the civic passivity that you have frequently decried.
The simple emphasis on the constitution that is central to Article 50 makes it a virtual bomb at the very heart of the rickety UK (non-)constitution.
Isn’t it queer how its Scotland in Union and the Ruth Davidson for a strong Opposition Party and her Westminster allies that are making the brouhaha anent independence and Chris has captured it there in grand style.
If they want us to belt up they should stop rattling our cage.
Rock says:
3 December, 2016 at 9:46 pm
As I have been saying since the Brexit result, it is a complete waste of time to find a special EU deal for Scotland as a colony of England.
Rock I don’t think any regular posters on here will argue with the fact seeking a special deal for Scotland within the UK is a waste of time but can’t you see that as the first minister of Scotland Nicola has an obligation to cater for all Scots, not just those who support independence,
As far as we know the polls are sitting at about 50/50 before she can safely call a referendum she has to at least be seen to explore all options in order to satisfy the cringers and the secondary Scots and the other proud Scot buts that there’s no other option, it’s a process of elimination
At the end of the day it will be a binary choice, Brexit or independence and when the time comes no one must be in any doubt about that.
I believe we have one shot left at this in our lifetime so lets not rush it, we’re up against a formidable enemy but they’re not unbeatable and they’re at their weakest they’ve ever been in my lifetime.
We’ve waited over 300 years Rock our time will come soon I know it will and I trust Nicola to strike when the time is right and not a moment sooner
Graeme
Thats a new one for me, that your post doesn’t shew till somebody else posts after you.
Anybody else suffered similarly?
(and now this has bounced because I’m posting too quickly!)
EU have stated no deals until the UK is out.They have to make it as hard and painful as possible to discourage other countries from trying their hand.
It seems like there is an awfie long way to go yet
Robert J. Sutherland,
“Let’s see what happens at the Supreme Court this coming week, for example. Even just from the legal submissions, the historical foundations of the UK are being revisited and revived as never before in the last 300 years. It’s changing the civic passivity that you have frequently decried.”
The twats in the UK Supreme Court will make full (mis)use of Scotland to help the UK establishment delay and eventually prevent Brexit without conceding anything to Scotland.
There will be no pronouncement that the Scots are “sovereign”.
@kininvie
Yes, the EU is the reason why we will be having a referendum in the first place, so it’s a little bit of a problem if the SNP didn’t have a strongly pro-EU line!
See this latest yougov poll. I think there’s a good quarter of the NO voters according to it who are actually pro-indy YES voters but are protesting about the pro-EU line. Which would mean there’s already a good majority for YES, perhaps 58%-42%, if the EU wasn’t an issue.
Well, they have to make their mind up: do they want to support Independence for Scotland, or support leaving the EU? Which matters more to them?
It does mean the SNP and others have to actually campaign for the EU though, as well as Independence. Starting with some facts which were in short supply.
link to yesindyref2.wordpress.com
I might do something about the EU Budget / costs over the next few hours. After a few zzzzzzzzz
@Robert Peffers,
if Scotland had the divine right of the monarch,
England would have been extinguished and become part of the Kingdom of Scotland?
there was never a English England,
from the Romans to the Germans to the Scandinavians to the French Normans to the Welsh Tudors to the Scottish Stuarts and then the Dutch and German dynasties
England has never been a English nation,
anyhoo,
Bruce did not kill Comyne,
Kirkpatrick did,and the motto of their clan since that day has been,
I Mak Sikkar .
Ian B, Billy Kay received his award for Services to Scots
link to twitter.com
Alan Mackintosh says:
3 December, 2016 at 10:21 pm
@ Robert Peffers, did you see my earlier post about Brenda reaffirming her oath every year to the Gen Assembly? Whats that all about
Queenie is the religious leader in charge of the Church of England.
She aint the leader of the Church of Scotland but is an ordinary member. Separation of state and religion.
Graeme,
“but can’t you see that as the first minister of Scotland Nicola has an obligation to cater for all Scots, not just those who support independence”
In my view, giving any impression that Scotland could get a special deal is being dishonest.
Talk straight and then let the people decide.
Decent working and unemployed classes will listen favourably, as we saw in the first referendum.
The vast majority of the British Nationalist elderly, the selfish middle classes and English settlers (most of whom fit into the first two categories) will never vote Yes.
Don’t let them blackmail us.
The last referendum was lost due to time and resources wasted on them when they could have been more usefully spent on a RIC like campaign.
Out of those categories, the minorities which are in favour of independence have already convinced themselves and don’t need any further encouragement.
“We’ve waited over 300 years Rock our time will come soon I know it will and I trust Nicola to strike when the time is right and not a moment sooner”
I would like a referendum in May 2017 and full independence by 31st December 2017.
Then an independent Scotland would be in a strong position to deal with both rUK and rEU.
The SNP can’t campaign for Indy yet. The EU / single market thing has to be put to bed, that can’t happen until after the UKSC decision in Jan, the UK Gov response, and possibly even the actual Article 50 Bill. The UKSC may clear up a few things regarding the UK Constitution though, and the EU has said that it can only talk to the UK as the member state, in terms of its Constitution (unless we’re Independent). Well, we may see some changes there if the UKSC turns up a can of worms for the UK, which it might do. The EU can recognise that.
But meanwhile the Greens can go full steam ahead campaigning for Indy, as can RISE, RIC, Commonspace, whoever – and us. We have no such restrictions as the SNP / ScotGov do.
@ Rock
¨The twats in the UK Supreme Court will make full (mis)use of Scotland to help the UK establishment delay and eventually prevent Brexit without conceding anything to Scotland.¨
Could well be, but lets be a little more optimistic shall we? In their panic to wriggle out their Brexit clusterf*** might they not clutch at any straw without thinking too much about further implications? And a Scottish veto would be no frail straw, rather a robust spoke to jam into the wheel of Brexit?
The downside though would be that the government could face the ´howling mob´ and say with all innocence, ¨Our hands are tied, it´s all the fault of those Scottish barstewards¨ thus diverting their rage. Would Scottish businesses down south end up having bricks through their windows or worse? We´ve already seen how anti-immigrant hatred has been stirred up.
“The vast majority of the British Nationalist elderly, the selfish middle classes and English settlers (most of whom fit into the first two categories) will never vote Yes.”
Cock.
Graeme
You are so right.
We will get one more shot at independence and if we fail this time it will be gone for a generation or forever. We cannot take the risk right now with polls for Yes hovering below 50%.
We must wait until the inevitable blunders and arrogance of Westminster over the next year or so push a majority into our camp. Patience and trust Nicola.
In the words of William Wallace, as played by Mel Gibson, “Hold! Hold!”
Looks like James Wolffe QC is up Wednesday 15.15 – 16.00 and Thursday 10.15 – 10.45
He has an hour and a quarter split between 2 days to make his case. That doesn’t sound like a long time to me… I had imagined he would be standing making his case for ages but I guess the submission is the meat and this is a summary of key points? Not my area.
Just in terms of time (to give everyone an idea of who gets what and in what order:
Appellant (UK Government): 7hours, 15mins
Attorney General of Northern Ireland: 45mins
Respondent Gina Miller’s QC: 3hours 45mins
Respondent Dos Santos’ QC: 1hour 30mins
Applicants Agnew and McCord’s QC 45mins
(NI cannot quit EU without NI consent)
Lord Advocate W James Wolffe QC: 1hour 15mins
Welsh Government QC: 1hour 15mins
Interested Parties: Graham Pigney & Others’ QC: 45mins
(crowdfunded ‘People’s Challenge’ to removal of EU citizenship)
Interested Parties: AB, KK, PR and children’s QC: 15mins
(various EU and EEA nationals opposing Brexit)
George Birnie & others’ QC: 30mins
(Expat Interveners opposing use of Royal Prerogative to trigger Article 50)
Appellant (UK Government) concludes: 1hour 30mins
Please note- I have not delved into the submissions of any except Wolffe’s so forgive me if my 4 or 5 word summaries are not particularly nuanced.
yesindyref2 says:
3 December, 2016 at 10:53 pm
See this latest yougov poll. I think there’s a good quarter of the NO voters according to it who are actually pro-indy YES voters but are protesting about the pro-EU line.
Ruby replies
These people are weird! They want an iScotland out of the EU even if 62% of the electorate want to remain in the EU. If they can’t get what they want then they will vote NO just out of spite!
@Graeme
I believe we have one shot left at this in our lifetime so lets not rush it, we’re up against a formidable enemy but they’re not unbeatable and they’re at their weakest they’ve ever been in my lifetime.
Totally agree Graeme one shot will be our last shot…
Any time is a good time to quote Don Roberto..
“The enemies of Scottish Nationalism are not the English, for they were ever a great and generous folk, quick to respond when justice calls. Our real enemies are among us, born without imagination”
I don’t know how many folk get Alyn Smiths emails on what the EU leaders are saying, but all EU countries are behind Scotland in this and are waiting for us to make the move
Spain has not joined in so far but has said if Scotland is Independent then it’s a different matter (hedging their bets)
Once article 50 is triggered, if I’m not mistaken that allows EU ministers to say what they like because the UK is officially on the out process and it’s left to the negotiators
The next ref wont be like the last where everybody Cameron could find was against us, this time it’s the reverse
The FM and Alyn Smith have done their job well, also Fiona Hyslop has met I think every single EU ambassador for a cup of tea and a teacake
The Ruth Davidson party is more likely to overdo their hatred and partisan UK English is best attitude and expose the weakness of her argument and who are they going to call on from that big England to come and lecture us this time that wont be met with howls of laughter, they wont dare use Gordon Brown or Alistair Darling again, Eddie Izzard? Michelle Mone? it’d be like comic relief
Boris! folk would be flinging themselves into the sea to swim to Europe
Yoongov polls, Lol. Really?
When I read people giving credence to Yoongov polls my brain melts and drips out my ears.
Rock
You might have a point but you do little to endear sympathy to your cause, I’m afraid. Politics is the art of persuasion, not belittlement. That should be held back for special-needs cases, like Duncan BALLOON-BOY.
Is a comment worth making if it adds more heat than light? We already have a good idea of the demographics of the debate, our job is to shape them to our needs, not solidify their opposition against our cause and their best interests.
Fireproofjim says:
3 December, 2016 at 11:17 pm
We must wait until the inevitable blunders and arrogance of Westminster over the next year or so push a majority into our camp. Patience and trust Nicola.
Ruby replies
I think we will reach a stage where people will be demanding Independence. There will be no need for polls or for hard work on the part of activists.
Surely just the way the UK Gov is handling Brexit must give people pause for thought!
It might be it’s time to relax and just let the Unionist rant on about Independence.
It could be pretty scary for them if the got no reaction to all their provocations.
Or we could just respond my saying ‘Yes dear, whatever you say dear!’
@robert peffers
Question. If England perceives scotland thwarting brexit could they then demand a referendum on ending the treaty of union? I.e. They leave. And if so would they have to elect enough MPs to support a bill to do so? And as the de facto parliament of England is sovereign would a leave the uk vote need to be ratified by their parliament? On second thoughts maybe indyref 2 is quicker. Mind you I’d love the irony of the silly brexiteers giving us the boot. Result.
@Alan Mackintosh says: 3 December, 2016 at 10:21 pm:
” … did you see my earlier post about Brenda reaffirming her oath every year to the Gen Assembly? Whats that all about?”
Only my own opinion, Alan, but I assumed that as it was the General Assembly of the Church of Scotland it does concern the Treaty of Union but not really to do directly with sovereignty.
It is an Article of Union, (and articles of Union are supposedly legally binding commitments), that The Monarch of Scotland, cannot by Scottish law be head of the Church.
However, as Queen of England Lizzie is Head of the Church of England.
The connection to sovereignty is that the monarch of Scotland not being Sovereign, is the protector of the people’s sovereignty and, as sovereignty is GOD given, the monarch is thus the servant of the people and thus servant of the Church of God.
As I keep pointing out this whole sovereignty thing is tied up with the belief that God exists. The royalty thing, though, is really just that those who fought their way to the top as royals in the first place did not believe there was a God and were exploiting the uneducated commoners who did believe.
Note that the Treaty of Union introduction is more concerned with the Protestants keeping the Roman Catholics hands of the crown than with Scottish independence.
The whole historic thing is just high level sectarianism.
The Jacobites, (Jacobite is French for the Stewarts followers). They were mainly Catholics and The English deposed their Stewart monarchy and imported King Billy – then started war against what they called the Jacobite Rebellion but as the two kingdoms were still independent until 1707 the English Kingdom could not legally depose the Scottish Monarchy. You cannot rebel against a foreign monarch.
It’s not easy to explain but I hope I have.
I agree with Rock. Nicola should have called a snap vote immediately after the leave result. All this talk of Scottish EU concessions is verbal diarrhoea. it ain’t gonna happen. I just think we had a better chance of victory in those furst couple of weeks after the June vote.
One_Scot says:
3 December, 2016 at 11:53 pm
Yoongov polls, Lol. Really?
Ruby replies
Is there any law that states you have to answer these polls truthfully?
I quite like the idea of all Yes voters saying they would vote NO.
Then perhaps in the next poll saying the would vote YES.
Headlines would be
Support for Independence drops to Zero %
followed by
Support for Independence increases by 50%
I don’t agree with Rock or Joemcg.
@joemcg –
Interesting comment.
You say you agree with Rock, then go on to make statements which have nothing whatsoever to do with what Rock always talks about.
You also manage to spell ‘diarrhoea’ successfully, but fail when it comes to to ‘furst’.
Do you think that writing ‘first’ as ‘furst’ makes you sound Scottish?
Well, no, actually, it doesn’t.
It just makes you look like a total troll prick.
Curb this talk please about the next Indy ref being our last for ages. Anything can happen as the political world is totally unpredictable as this year has shown.
It just gives the yoons a useful quote.
Having said that I believe there won’t need to be a third time of asking.
But there will be violence from the No side.
@ Ian B
u is next to i on a qwerty keyboard – more likely to be a proof-reading failure than an attempt at being a poseur, don’t you think?
(never expected to be defending that particular poster, but still….)
Tam Jardine, didnt see Aidan O Neill in your list. He’s the QC for the International union of Workers who also intervened and which was discussed earlier on this and the previous thread.
@crazycat –
Noted, with thanks.
🙂
(pulls neck in…for the meantime…)
I was wondering why the You Gov polls have consistently 20% Voters from the rUK when the figure is naturally 8.7%. Their “pool” is strange.
Then i noticed that they advertise for “members of their random ” pool in the Scotsman. It i think largely explains their strange results.
If you source your pollsters from an asylum, why do you wonder that your results are mad even after you have “corrected” the sample.
@ Ian B
To quote Smallaxe:
Peace, always.
@ian brotherhood
Haven’t been posting much, it’s true. I’ve been out talking to voters mostly….
More of us should do this…if you actually speak to enough folk on the doorstep it is absolutely clear that right now is not the moment for indyref2.
The soft No voters are waiting to see how the buggers’ muddle down south is going to work out. They are still saying No to the pollsters, but they are saying ‘reconsidering’ to us. They need time. The potential swing of +5% is there – but it remains latent and waiting on events.
On the other hand – and this is where we all need to do a bit of work – we’re finding that voters in our deprived areas are now so damned terrified that they are less Yes than before – because people will cling onto a sinking ship rather than plunge for a frail lifeboat…
Well well well
Having a wee nosey aboot because I don’t know either the thinking behind this annual oath,from Monarch to the church.
Anyhoo turns oot that..The Moderator Of The General Assembly Of The Church Of Scotland….had a private tea with Theresa May last Wednesday.
Wonder wit was going on there????
I am mindful of the Question Time plant…old guy weird hat… shortly before the referendum,banging on about some church documentation that prioritised the church in Scotland..
Like a bad extra from Braveheart.
And am aware that some are concerned that the zeitgeist moving towards secularism my be enhanced in Scotland with Independence.
A side issue yes but one I think worth noting…Aye?
I’ve already converted 4 folk to Yes in the last month alone and two have joined the party
I don’t know where all this negativity’s coming from, folk are frightened yes, but more frightened of Englands leap into unpleasantness than Independence for Scotland
As soon as article 50 is triggered and our EU Minister friends are allowed to speak openly we’ll see a big difference
Cameron ran for his life for a reason, remember this was supposed to be his responsibility not Eva Mays and the 3 Brexiteers
HEED we need ye , trolls are getting in. get oot yer huff. PLEASE.
Em.. anybody else thought that Heedtracker might not be ok.
I mean those couple of posts weren’t exactly abuse.
Infact I had originally thought it was an in joke I was not getting.
And don’t forget Thepnr has said that he wishes he hadn’t said anything…as we all do at one point or another.
And anybody seen him in the last day or two???
Heedtracker once said to me if anyone elses doesn’t like what you are saying then they should.. scroll on by…
Great advice and he (we need to have a conversation,I thought Heedtracker was a she,although that’s not the first time that has happened here!!!) also said pretty much the same thing at the time.
This guy does Guardian reconnaissance fir fucks sake….. surely not a person who will be easily insulted then..
So I am wondering if he is ok …and is anybody in a position to check.
Heedtracker if you are reading…you don’t need to post but can you just say hi???
Rock @ 22:44:
The balance of probability is in favour of that, I freely grant you. Like many here, I view with a deeply suspicious eye any interference of this latterday court in the constitutionally-guaranteed legal affairs of Scotland. But given that this issue precisely concerns the constitutional status of the entire UK, this is surely a case fitted for the SC like no other.
I also grant you that would be a brave set of judges indeed, whether English or Scottish, who would poke that particular nest of hornets, but I don’t share your characteristically pessimistic outright dismissal of them. For these learned jurists, The Law is paramount, and they are well capable of following wherever it leads, if given a sufficiently well-argued steer. And if you have read the recent interventions on behalf of Scotland, you must surely concede that they are certainly getting one!
One important point eg. is that although Westminster may retain a theoretical primacy when conceding power, once conceded, it can be a practical political impossibility to recover it. Just imagine how the fur would fly, for example, if WM ever ludicrously attempted to reassert primacy over Canada or Australia! The most recent Scotland Act and poor maladroit Fluffy’s assurances before WM (on the record in Hansard) over the meaning of “normally” in promoting it, may well have taken us over that tipping point also.
But this is all by-the-bye. I will take your basic position and turn it right around. It actually doesn’t matter one whit what ex-cathedra pronouncements are made (whether judgements of the SC, press releases by Travellin’ Phil Hammond, or the historical constitutional arguments of RP), it’s public opinion in Scotland that ultimately counts. It doesn’t matter whether some statement upholds Scottish rights or flagrantly denies them. If it brings a majority of people to the realisation that in actual fact they are in thrall to an executive and legislature that exercises careless, sometimes malign, and fundamentally unrepresentative power over us, our campaign is won.
It’s as simple as that. Anything whatever, positive, negative or neutral, which brings that realisation about, is to be welcomed.
If supporters of indy don’t have the belief that previous civic passivity can be overcome, we are doomed to failure from the start. Who on earth will follow anyone who doesn’t believe in the success of their own cause? You might as well submerge yourself in something personally satisfying like crochet or stamp-collecting instead and let the nasty world out there go hang.
I don’t believe we’re bound to fail. I believe we have right on our side. I believe we will prevail.
@Alan Mackintosh
Looks like the IWGB (Aidan O’Neill) and Lawyers for Britain are just sticking to their written submissions. This page confirms that Lawyers for Britain won’t address the court, I guess it’s the same for IWGB.
link to supremecourt.uk
indyref2,
Makes me wonder if these QC’s are actually working pro bono. Their time is ultra-expensive, and they have to earn their crust. =grin=
Pity, though. I found the prospect of those particular legal eagles putting their case in person a rather appealing one.
(I suppose I’ll just have to reduce the quantity of popcorn, then.)
Well the old saying goes… comment on the obvious is boring.
It doesn’t take much imagination to proclaim.
This Court on This Day won’t declare Scotland Sovereign.
Of course it won’t…what fool ever imagined anybody thought it would???
Question is…Why would it …it wasn’t asked to?
The Only result we can go forward with is,whatever the Judgement says it has to be an interpretation of the law,and THAT’S what tells us officially WHAT the Law actually is.
Well as the Supreme Court say it is…..just as well we also have the European Court to look at it too.
This is where all the stuff Robert Peffers is saying matters.
Evedienc can be given to the Court’s…to assist them in their judgement…..that demonstrates the. ACTUAL position in the Union that Scotland.. LEGALLY holds….
Not withstanding if Westminster get away with arguments!!!of old…in THEORY…. London controls America.
Can’t have it both ways!!
Uphold any Law that says Westminster or the Crown.. OWN… Scotland and the US has to be included.
So I think it’s safe to say that international law when it comes to our independence…will have nothing to say about it.
SCOTLAND’S DEMOCRATIC DROUGHT
When otherwise seasonal rains fail to arrive, some countries can be forced to suffer drought for years, often followed by famine and all the suffering that brings.
In a sense, we here in Scotland are having to endure a democratic ‘drought’, with all the consequences we are so familiar with. When our ‘drought’ will end, no one knows, but until whatever forces are required to end it are in place, we too must wait, though not of course, sitting idly by, doing nothing.
There are laws of the Universe, laws of physics and laws of nature, all of which we must accept, and over which we cannot exercise any control, much as we’d like to.
Throughout history, major societal changes appear to operate in a similar way, as if led by an evolutionary force of some kind. But the net effect on us is the same – we have to wait sometimes for change to come.
Difficult as things are, it could be a lot worse, and has been at various times during the last 309 years of the Union. So, bearing patiently while this ‘democratic drought’ lasts, is a real choice – until Independence arrives, by whatever means.
RE: The SC submissions?
The outcome you want isn’t necessarily the outcome you need IMO. Ideally, I’d love one that supports May’s and Hammond’s use of the Queen’s prerogative. Nothing would focus folks minds on the upcoming choices facing them than a rapid and very hard brexit.(shrugs)
Playing devil’s wossiname for five minutes, consider the possible personal and political advantages for May in using the SC to do some heavy lifting for her though. Using the royal prerogative was perhaps the stupidest thing, or perhaps the smartest thing and certainly the riskiest gamble, May has attempted since getting the big chair.
@Robert J. Sutherland
Possibly. I think it would be a lot cheaper just to have written submissions, kind of like a solicitor’s letter!
Perhaps too this is because the 4 day hearing was announced quite a time ago, and it was worked out there wasn’t enough time for them to do it orally. But the judges will still consider them and weigh them, and answer them, presumably (and hopefully) point by point.
@Liz g / @Macart
I’m a bit more open as to what the SC can do. It does have the 2 Scottish judges, and I think its scope includes Scots law fully, whereas the Divisional Court was England and Wales only. And the word “Sovereign” is used in the UK Gov’s appeal, and therefore is within the scope of UKSC to address:
“31. The correct legal position, that the Westminster Parliament is sovereign and may legislate at any time on any matter, is specifically set out in the devolved legislation itself:”
So the worms might be escaping the tin at last! Poor trapped things 🙁
Just looking at an Express article of all places to look:
“Some MPs suspect the 11 justices – sitting together for the first time in the court’s history in a symbol of the constitutional significance of the case – will deliver a judgment so complex that it cannot be simply overturned by Parliamentary votes. ”
“Lawyers opposing the Government have put forward an intricate argument about historic rights and sovereignty that could lead to a judgment invulnerable to being unpicked by a single, sparselyworded Government Bill. The danger is that months of legal confusion may be looming. ”
Mmm, yeah, popcorn.
I feel like I should be a lot more excited about the forthcoming case at the Supreme Court, but I feel we have very little nett gain if we win, and if we lose, we have stalemate; a SC verdict which doesn’t respect Scottish sovereignty openly contradicting the 2011 AXA vs Lord Advocate case which specifically did.
It still troubles me the way we pursue this “reactive” strategy; Westminster does this, so we must do that… If it is central to the SNP’s plans to have Supreme Court acknowledge Scottish sovereignty, then why not bring forward a test case to do precisely that? Why is the matter tagged onto a third parties Brexit submission? Where would Scottish interests currently lie if it wasn’t for Gina Millar???
I don’t get it. Aren’t we just fiddling about with minutiae and transparent political differences while the bigger cogs and gears which might physically traverse our country back out of the Union haven’t actually moved an inch?
Even with a successful SC adjudication, and even with a Holyrood consultation about Brexit, Westminster can simply ignore it and proceed with Brexit regardless given May has her mandate to do so from the referendum.
If we want to avoid Scotland being dragged out of Europe, isn’t the surest way of doing that to take the initiative and lay legitimate claim to our sovereignty? It’s as if we lack confidence in the devices and precedents which enshrine and protect Scottish sovereignty, and we are too polite to tell Westminster where to draw the line, preferring instead for Westminster to find the line all by itself.
I ask again, why this reactive strategy? When do we start setting out our own agenda? It’s that big “I” word again… initiative.
I don’t want Scotland out of the Union because the Brexiteer militia wants to burn down our houses because we’ve wrecked or derailed their Brexit. Wouldn this whole affair be much simpler if our strategy was that the sovereign voice of Scotland has declared Scotland is remaining in Europe, and if you don’t like that Westminster, then the onus is on you to break Scottish sovereignty in law.
Now wouldn’t that be a wiser strategy? Or am I missing something?
I wonder if the First Minister’s training as a solicitor has any bearing on the way the SC is being addressed?
I imagine, from watching her on FMQ, that she has a pretty sharp legal brain.
Just a thought.
May and Hammond don’t even listen to their own constituents. They could soon be out of a job. That’s what they get for rigging an Election and a Referendum twice. The Tories committed electoral fraud in 31 Constituencies. UKIP have been committing electoral fraud for years. Illegally funding a Political Party with public money. Nuttall has got the poison chalice. Nigel is out on his ear. Off to the US looking to embezzle US taxpayers money? Alcoholics make poor, bad decisions without proper total abstinence, rehab counselling. To make amends. Andrew Neil has a £3.4Million apartment in Trump Towers, on taxpayers money. Will S. Smith visit there with the taxpayers funded Labour Party. Exiled for telling lies.
Westminster/Tories cause the migration and then abuse and blame the migrants. The Westminster Unionists appalling policies mucking up the world economy and sanctioning and starving the vulnerable. Illegal wars, banking fraud and tax evasion. They waste £Trillions of taxpayers money committing International crime. Blowing Middle East countries to bits and causing a migration crisis that other European counties have to manage. The Tories are borrowing too much money and manipulating migration numbers. To line the pockets of the Tory/Unionists and their associates.
It would have been cheaper and more productive to stay in the EU. £12Billion that all comes back in benefits. A bargain. The US/UK and France have caused the migration crisis in Europe with their foreign policies. They refuse to take any responsibility. Could the Tories make a bigger mess? There will have to be a GE to get them out of Office to conciliate the situation.
Vote SNP/SNP. May 2017. Vote for Independence.
A UK Gov memo about preventing memo’s being leaked, has been leaked.
An unelected aide of an unelected parliament swans along Downing Street with a document open to view.
A complete and utter shambles.
Nobody should forget that Westminster WILL fight tooth and nail to keep hold of Scotland. Until we actually vote for Independence, they will oppose it all the way, and why not ? They have a lot to lose.
I think the thing with the pretendy ‘supreme court’ in England, making its judgement in London this week, is this, NO, of course they are not going to make some declaration of Scottish sovereignty, but I do not think anybody ever seriously suggested that.
What any judgement will do, is remind some truly ignorant English people (and a few Scot buts) the nature of the United Kingdom. As Rob Peffers keeps pointing out, it is was created as an EQUAL partnership, between two sovereign kingdoms, that of Scotland and of England (which included Ireland and Wales). So when considering the detail of the propositions put forward from Scotland, they will of course conclude the relevancy of the treaty of 1707, since without it, their is NO United Kingdom. The treaty is not, as some unionists like to believe, just an old piece of history. Like wise the Scottish constitution, as asserted within it, the declaration of Arbroath, and the Scottish claims of right.
The question to ask is this, if you argue the English constitution is valid, then why would the Scottish constitution not be also valid, since the treaty altered neither.
That is the key point. As regards the Queen’s oath, as per the Treaty of union, the point is, that as she has adhered to it, in every year of her reign, it shows that not only is that specific article of union still important, but that the treaty itself is still important – otherwise why adhere to it, not only now, but also in her coronation.
The reality is, as some have pointed out, this will be a complex ruling. This is not a simple matter. What it will do, regardless of the key point of a parliamentary vote, is inform a new generation of Scots legal minds of the true nature of the union between Scotland and England.
The treaty of union did not have just one article which stated; ARTICLE I “As of the first day of May next ensuing the date hereof, England will take whole and full possession of that country formerly known as Scotland. From that day forward, the peoples of that aforementioned former country, shall be subservient to every whim and decision of the now enlarged Kingdom of England.”
Yet THAT is how England currently behaves towards Scotland. We are NOT a possession of England, but an equal sovereign partner in the union. Let us hope the pretendy ‘supreme court’ judgement, regardless of outcome, at the very least reminds some of the massed ranks of Westminster ignorati (and the unionist cabal in Scotland) of that very point.
@ yesindyref2
¨The danger is that months of legal confusion may be looming.¨
I can only imagine that the government are playing for time.
Let´s face it they can hire the best lawyers in the land, so they would have been told they´d need to go to parliament before activating A50. So if they were serious about Brexit they would have gone straight to WM and whipped a one-line motion through before any opposition could get its act together, and if they failed well I dunno, resign and call a GE I suppose, but that´s May off the hook at least.
But they went to court, and lost, so then why not take it to parliament? Well an appeal would wast a bit more time. And now the Sewel convention is being brought up by both the Welsh and Scots devolved admins. So goodie, a bit more delay.
I don´t know if the Welsh would approve, but their submission is worth reading. They´re on weaker ground than Scotland, but put a lot of emphasis on the way devo is now very much a one-way street and insist they be consulted, even though they don´t dispute the referendum outcome, as such.
But Scotland is different. They have to be consulted, and not only will the Scottish government almost certainly object, they constitutionally *must* object, given the way the Scots voted agin Brexit almost 2:1 and given that in Scotland the people are sovereign.
So that will block A50, which I imagine is what May wants, but has the interesting side-effect of bringing the issue of sovereignty and the incompatiblity of the Scottish and English systems to light. And hence the whole fudged nature of the Union.
A can of very wriggly worms? 😉
link to indyref2.scot
Re Heedtracker Lizg, yep think something is ‘up’. It’s not like him tae take the remotest offence, he thrives on the sparring wi numpties on here and has a remarkably even temperament…certainly not prone to huffing that’s for sure.
K. A. Mylchreest at 0951,
I too was wondering if delays by the SC judgement could be what Theresa wants. Anybody with a brain, taking an un politicised view of Brexit, can see it is possibly the dumbest, most damaging action the UK could take, but the Tories have painted themselves into a corner.
The Tories didn’t intend to get a leave vote from the referendum, but that is what happened. Now, the Tories cannot back out, because that would literally tear the Tory party apart – half of them love EU, half hate it with a passion – and they are still fighting a rear-guard action with UKIP.
So, would it be a surprise, if Theresa May actually wanted to lose the judgement? If Scotland opposed brexit, and it couldn’t happen, this would be the perfect excuse for the PM. Kind of like a ‘get out of jail free’ card for the Tory leadership.
No watching that nonsense. Just a tweet. The dope on the rope is expanding. The tie doesn’t cover it. Just exaggerates the girth. Given up the biking PR. Just outright troughing it.
It was great giving up Sky/ Murdoch. A liberation. No more bad reception, or half a package. Gone. Done and dusted. Music sets the mood better. Peace at any price. Alba has some good tunes and enthusiasm. Looks for the future by not forgetting the past.
@Robert Louis
@K. A. Mylchreest
I too find it very strange that May appealed to the Supreme Court. Not only was it highly likely to agree with the High Court, it allowed others (Scots etc) to pile in and widen the constitutional scope of what was being decided.
It sounds like both of you are suggesting there is a faction within the Tories trying to delay, if not scupper Brexit?
Certainly, there is evidence to support that! Or, is it just their ongoing chaotic mismanagement of the crisis where there really is no planning?
One possibility did occur to me, though. Blame-the-Scots might be a good strategy for a right wing English Nationalist party with nothing in Scotland to lose and much in England to gain.
Just Incase anyone missed it :
Mr Salmond is on Sunday Politics with Gordon Brewer today, apparently.
Discussing the SC situation etc
Not that I want to be blamed for encouraging you to watch BBC.
Merely imparting information.
Heedtracker we miss you. Hope you are alright – we need you.
Scotland vote 62/38 to Remain. So did London. Including May/Hammond Tory Constituencies in the flight path. Their Constituencies majority also opposed Heathrow expansion, HS2? Hinkley Point? and Trident by the Thames.
A dilemma for the Tories – not listening to their constituencies core voters. Out on their rear. Leather trousers – cow bags. That’s what happens when electoral fraud is committed in 31 Constituencies. A stitch up. The poison chalice. Trying to put through what their voters do not want. Aka Johnston, Redmond et al. Signing their own resignation speech and their seats.
Selected viewing is required. Parliamentary Channel. To see what the ‘psycho bastards’ are doing. . Not selectively reported by some ignorant, arrogant, incompetent self seeking ‘journalist’.
Salmond could be interesting but Brewer’s out. No listeners, No viewers. No programme.
Robert Louis @ 9.24
Could not agree more..my friend.
But we must..caw canny..
A lot..A very lot..of our country men and women are of the opinion that they are and must be loyal to the Crown.
This is strange…Aye the Crown is fine….but how does that ever translate to supporting Westminster????
I really don’t get it!!
Why??
The Crown is a completely different subject from the Parliament,I cannot see why there is no clarification in place,for the voter’s
Nobody is telling them that they are supporting the wrong union.
And I hope after Indy .. somehow a proper history can be taught in the school’s…. pretty much don’t care what is taught…..as long as it is HONEST.
“Now wouldn’t that be a wiser strategy? Or am I missing something?”
Perhaps that is the Scottish Government’s next move?
Katie Hopkins on LBC now, hoping that the far right win in Austria, and that there is a no vote in Italy. All because she wants Brexit, and destroying the EU she thinks, is the best way to get it. These people don’t seem to know, or care, about the trouble they are storing up for the future.
Have they all gone mad down there?
Robert Louis says:
4 December, 2016 at 10:06 am
“I too was wondering if delays by the SC judgement could be what Theresa wants”
I have been thinking about this a lot and I am convinced that this is exactly what she is after. She is in an impossible situation as Brexit is a battle she (or her party) cannot win.
Why? It is clear that going ahead with Brexit is going to tear the Union apart. I read in that rag that is the Metro (I will never pay for Unionist press) that the support for independence in Scotland had decreased by a grand total of a 1%. Starting campaigning from 44% is much better than starting from the 23% that the Guardian claimed it was in 2013, so I do not see where the bad news are. This is of course, without taking into account that this was just another private poll by the Unionist Times attempting to blur the fact that the yoons are quacking in their boots because the SNP has completed his own poll reaching over 1.5 million people and they are the only ones that for now, know the result.
I think that if there is a chance that Scotland leaves the Union before Brexit is completed, the kingdom of England (because I think that without Scotland there is not longer a UK)will be left in a incredibly precarious situation to negotiate anything and would lose all his grand stance in the world. The oil assets would be cheap at the moment, but they are still worth quite a lot and those are not in England, they are here. Other assets that contribute greatly to the economy are also here. Renewables are strong here. Also, if Scotland remains in the EU, what is going to happen to many EU companies down south including banks? They will relocate here leaving England in tatters. Migration is positive for the economy. Where is he people going to migrate if only Scotland is in the EU?
So yes, the only chance that May and her party have of getting out of this riddle is if Scotland vetoes Brexit and stays in the Union.
What is the worse that could happen to her? To me that the brexiteers down south start to support and demand Scottish independence because they have finally realised that this is the fastest way for them to get out of the EU.
The Liar LibDems think they are back. Nae chance. The LibDems caused this mess. Lying and messing about with the Tories.
It could end up the UK paying more for EU access with less influence. Causing regression and hardship in the UK.
If the corruption and electoral fraud in 31 constituency was addressed. The position would be resolved.
Vote SNP/SNP in May 2017. Vote for Independence.
Hi IanB.
Further info to add to Alan Mackintosh’s short post about Billy Kay last night:-
“This year, a champion of Scots language and culture will be awarded – Services to Scots – in recognition of unstinting work for the Scots tongue. Billy Kay, broadcaster and writer will be the first recipient of the award.”
More can be found at this link. The BBC Alba broadcast may be on iPlayer.
link to whatson-north.co.uk
For the benefit of the boringly dense, Nicola Sturgeon will call a referendum when it looks like we will win!!!
Bill Kay appeared at Alastair Gray’s concert in the Oran Mor on Tuesday, talkin aboot talkin’s no easy but he made a braw job o it!
Why are we not hearing anymore of the potential for businesses to move from England to Scotland in the event of Scotland remaining in the EU and England leaving?
The better together mob and their media placemen never stopped campaigning after 2014 so why does it feel like we have?
Dr Jim @ 03 Dec 11.48pm:
“I don’t know how many folk get Alyn Smiths emails on what the EU leaders are saying”
I’d like to read some of them, any idea how you get signed up to them? Is it from link to alynsmith.eu ?
Thanks
Aberdeen University. Salary and remuneration? Glass Library Cost £Millions. Replacement windows. Complains about ‘cuts’.
Total mismanagement. The University estate is awash with cash. Enough is never enough.
There is a case for cutting University funding for the wealthy from elsewhere. To fund the early years and additional needs training for teachers. So Scottish students can take up their rightful place at University.
@Elizabeth Stanley says: 4 December, 2016 at 12:27 am:
“I don’t agree with Rock and Joe mcg”
You are correct for they are both, whether they do so deliberately or not, doing the Yoon Loon lies and propaganda for the unionists.
If, as they claim, they are supporters of independence, then their stance is totally illogical. Here’s the right logical thinking.
The Union is the result of an legally binding contract between, (as the title plainly affirms), two equally sovereign kingdoms to unite as a single, “United Kingdom”. It thus creates a bipartite kingdom of equal partners.
Furthermore it is not a union of countries, regions, islands or continents.
Neither is the parliament that the treaty created the continued parliament of either of the two equally sovereign Kingdoms that signed the treaty. Even although it did then inhabit the former parliament building of the former Kingdom, and country, of England. Which building incidentally burned to the ground and was rebuilt with United Kingdom funds.
Being situated, for example, in a former brothel, would not make it a house of ill repute, nor in an old army fortress make it a military regime, nor in a former school building make it an educational establishment.
Westminster was thus, and legally still is, the parliament building of a bipartite union of two equally sovereign kingdoms.
What’s more the treaty that gave birth to The United Kingdom plainly states that the two must remain, in perpetuity, different in several important ways as there is no legal way to make the two kingdoms legal institutions, religious institutions or Educational institutions harmonise together. Then the treaty also makes clear that there is a different legal sovereignty in use in each Kingdom.
As that is the case the joint monarch has two quite different rolls in each respective kingdom. All this is plainly stated in the Treaty and in the individual Kingdom’s Acts of Union that adopted the Treaty almost word for word.
So here is the logical conclusion that both Rock & Joe Mcg, do not seem to grasp. Either the Treaty of Union is extant today or it is not and thus cannot be legally applied.
If Westminster claims, as it does, that Scotland leaving the union will leave behind an rUnited Kingdom they plainly are admitting that Westminster is no longer a bipartite union of two equally sovereign kingdoms but is instead the single country of England, now calling itself the United Kingdom, that has devolve the country of England’s powers to the three other countries. Yet Westminster continues to claim itself to be the United Kingdom Parliament even after proving it is not by introducing EVEL, (English Votes for English Laws), and excluding members of the parliament from three countries, (one of which countries is legally an equal partner kingdom).
They cannot simultaneously be the Parliament of the Country of England treating Scotland, Wales and N.I. as separate devolved countries and the United Kingdom Parliament of two equally sovereign partner Kingdoms.
The United Kingdom is a Kingdom it is not a country and it certainly is not the Country of England.
In fact Westminster has ended the United Kingdom and set itself up as the country of England allowing the other three countries some of the English Parliament’s perceived powers.
@solarflare 11.59 a.m.
I get alyn’s emails and his email address is alyn.smith@europarl.europa.eu
John H. says:
Yes, literally they haven’t got a scooby what they are on about!
So many folks forget that the primary purpose of the EU is peace and stability in Europe.
In the UK the European wars we know about are those we were involved in, but there were dozens more punch ups the UK kept out of.
link to en.m.wikipedia.org
Look at 19thC!
Also, remember, 14 of the 28 member states got their independence in the 20thC with several more in the 19thC. And united countries like Italy and Germany are 19thC creations.
The value of the EU in terms of cohesion and stability cannot be underestimated. Hardcore Brexiteers seem to think it’s all about trade. The EU matters to most people across Europe and that is why the UK is about to be severely punished for ‘disloyalty’ to that common cause.
The EU is imperfect, but history shows us the alternatives!
It appears from what I’m hearing that the policy wonk zoomers aren’t too happy that the SNP National Survey has attracted over 2 mil responses. That’s a lot of engagement right there and a lot of numbers to crunch. 🙂
Y’know, if the establishment parties really gave a shit about ‘listening’ to the people (as they keep promising), they could have launched surveys of their own to inform their future policy. If they really wanted to know what people thought about events, their fears, their opinions, they wouldn’t wait for five year periods before pretending to ask questions they don’t really want answers to.
But then they truly don’t care what you think do they? What matters to them is that you care what they think.
So no, I’m really NOT interested in their whining or their faux outrage over this issue. The only thing genuine about their distress and rage is that the SNP had the intestinal fortitude to go to the public and dare to ask their opinion.
‘Cause clearly, y’know, you can’t have the public opinion influencing or informing anything as important as policy for party or worse yet government.
@donnywho says: 4 December, 2016 at 1:39 am:
… If you source your pollsters from an asylum, why do you wonder that your results are mad even after you have “corrected” the sample.
It is much, much simpler than that, donnywho.
You gov maintains a register of signed up, “Members”. I believe they even pay them.
The most important rule of opinion polls is that the sample of those polled is a totally random sample ogf the public.
How do you carry out a random sample of the public when you sign them up and pay them?
In fact there really is no way to hold a totally random sample of cross-section of the public? If you stop them in the street then you can choose to sample them in Edinburgh’s Morningside and Glasgow’s Kelvinside or instead in Constitution Street, Leith and Ferguslie Park in Paisley and you will get quite different results.
Phones are now no better with the poorest having none, then many with only a mobile and some with landlines. On-line is even worse as these who reply choose themselves.
Polls are really just scams.
@solarflare
go to link to alynsmith.eu and click on ‘Stay informed, sign up for my newsletters’ in the top right corner.
Croompenstein says:
“Please come back heedtracker”… thirded
…and Nana and john king and caz-m…..etc
Im still here, I just spend most of my time on twitter spreading the word 🙂
If you’re not a member you can still get all the info from your own link
Look at a box called “Stay informed” where you can sign up to get all Alyns updates just by putting in your email address
It’s very informative and he keeps you abreast of what other EU leaders are actually saying and not what the media tells you they’re saying
If more people knew this stuff they’d be clamouring for Independence and no messing
“Heed? C’mon…ah miss ye…we aw dae”
Meanaw 🙁
galamcennalath says:
4 December, 2016 at 12:42 pm
“So many folks forget that the primary purpose of the EU is peace and stability in Europe.”
So it would seem. I am seventy years old now, and have lived my life in peace thanks largely, I believe, to the EU. I also happen to be a bit of a history buff, and I know that Europe was largely destroyed by the end of WW2.
If anyone doubts it, there are plenty of documentaries on YouTube showing the wreckage of the European cities in 1945. Not to mention the tens of millions of deaths.
The counter submission from the Government is dodgy in that it relies on overturning the High Court case before the hearing.
The subsequent punt is staking out a position for when the case is lost. Their problem is that simply being able to pass laws on devolved matters is no proof that Parliamentary Sovereignty rests in Westminster. In most circumstances Holyrood can legislate to overturn or ammend any such legislation. It’s only in circumstances where such a decision would be irrevocable that Westminster can make it stick. But only for as long as we are stuck in this fucking union.
That’s if you ignore the small matter that in England Westminster holds Sovereignty and not the Government so that particular claim undermines the rest of the Government’s case as to why they seem so determined to avoid a vote.
The SNP don’t listen to the public (scream scream squeal)
(National survey) The SNP have no right to listen to the public (shriek yelp)
We want the results of the National survey that don’t count (Aaargh whine)
If the SNP want in we want out (siren)
Just.. just somebody gonnae shut the SNP up (begging now)
And so to the end result Kezia wants more powers for the Scottish Parliament that she voted against having before and wishes she would never wake up after having opened her very own big childish mouth once again
Ruth is still terrorising the public with a bad face and screams of NO SURRENDER and wishes she would never wake up till her very own big mouth had something coming out of it that resembled a human being instead of an animal noise
But most interesting of all the voters in England have decided that the new Tory jackboot polishers will be the UKIP and the old Labour Jackboot polishers are to be relegated even further down the steps of Number 10 Reichstag Street
So the tangled web the Tories wove to get their own way has ended up with a black widow spider in it who’s now eating her own ministers
And Scotlands Nicola Sturgeon who seems to be the only politician in these islands with a brain has got a big duster ready to deal the web a swipe
Re. Scottish/English law and the Acts of Union.
Fuck the lot of it!. Too acknowledge it has legitimacy is to accept your grooming as a slave of the British state.
Is it not a sing of madness if one lacks attachment to reality? Well, it looks like Scotland is simply used to being groomed and abuses
Perhaps the UK Supreme Court can explain why Scots are currently denied access to their inalienable human rights? Until such time, they can keep their interpretation of reality to themselves.
link to un.org
Until the inalienable human right of Scots are respected, there is no justice for Scots within the British state. Why then, do Scots look to the tools of you slavery for liberation?
Put the master’s tools down.
link to un.org
From the Herald ….
“SCOTTISH Labour leader Kezia Dugdale will this week support new powers for Holyrood as part of a call for a reformed United Kingdom.
In a major speech, she will back a constitutional shake-up that could see the UK move towards federalism in a post-Brexit era.”
… they are pulling our legs!?
Not Geordie Broon’s Federal superdevoUKOKmax all over AGAIN!
Labour had many chances to deliver the powers Scotland wants and every time have done heehaw. They had the perfect opportunity with Smith to actually deliver something meanful, but blew it. Worse, they were biggest anti devolutionist in Smith consultations.
And anyways, in which century does Kezia foresee the next WM Labour government?
The Hootsman:
Analysis: Holyrood will not win veto in complex Brexit contest
link to archive.is
@Dr Jim:
So the tangled web the Tories wove to get their own way has ended up with a black widow spider in it who’s now eating her own ministers
And Scotlands Nicola Sturgeon who seems to be the only politician in these islands with a brain has got a big duster ready to deal the web a swipe
🙂
@call me dave
You have to laugh, a bankrupt cringing newspaper at odds with the political landscape of Scotland who can barely pay the rent on any premises they occupy and can’t afford the staff to run it comes up with an analysis and psychic assesment on what law and legal types may or may not do to impress their 14 readers, if they were that clever they might still be a newspaper
Has the Slovenian girlfriend burst?
Telegraph …
“Boris Johnson refuses to back ‘large’ payments for access to Single Market after Brexit”
My first reaction was, he probably doesn’t care about being in the single market.
However, let’s face it, there are probably three Brexit outcomes ..
1) it is abandoned
2) there is the deal the EU offer
3) the is dirty Brexit as the UK walk way
IMO the EU won’t want the UK to have full single market access, even at a price, because that wouldn’t be punishment enough. Leaving the EU has to be seen to hurt.
In many ways, what the Tories do or don’t want is irrevant. The EU will dictate terms. Only trivial detail will be up for negotiation.
Scotland can be part of the UK as long as we don’t take part in the UK because that’s an English matter
Now Scotland can send MPs to Westminster to be laughed and jeered at and outvoted at every turn by all the English parties because there’s never going to be enough of them to make enough of a difference (if Scotland had the best footballers in the world there would only be a British football team) a bit like Andy
Wales has no say in anything for the same reason and the Northern Irish don’t even bother sending some of their MPs because they understood a long time ago what the Scottish public should be understanding by now
So the United Kingdom democracy is based on which country has the greater numbers
Given that’s a mathematical impossiblity unless we grew Scotlands population by another 55 million in the next wee whiley what’s the answer to equality of opinion or reasoned debate when the answer to any question or even fact driven argument is “We’ve got more people than you Fukc right off”
Politicians don’t like the electorate voting on stuff, the Brexit vote proved that because unfortunately voters are thick en masse and we all know it, so much so politicians survive on the fact that the electorate don’t have any idea what’s going on, it’s how they get away with telling the same lies over and over again to get elected
Democracy seems only to work in smaller doses and smaller countries because it’s easier to connect and to inform small groups rather than big ones, it’s why America has three thousand levels of democracy to get through in order to thwart actual democracy of the people and for the people of that country
Given that just about anybody should be able to see that big is not beautiful but is in fact a Diabasterous concept
what the blazes is our wee country holding back from when Independence is patently the most sensible option for a real chance of open democracy where you vote people in or out depending on how well they did instead of Englands democracy which is governed by weight of numbers and if you’re voted out you can be re installed at a higher level voted by no one to continue doing the stuff folk voted you out for
The English system is dictatorship, they know it and they like it, well good for them
But bad for Scotland
Boris is on a sticky wicket given that so much play was made about not wanting Turkey in the EU despite the UK being able to veto that. I wasn’t to clear about whether that was ignorance of how things are or foreknowledge of how things will be. If the former then given his encouragement of them joining now the UK is losing its veto one might be forgiven for wondering if his ancestry has any significance. If the later and membership is heading towards QMV then that’s good news for an independent Scotland.
Liz g says:
4 December, 2016 at 3:49 am
Em.. anybody else thought that Heedtracker might not be ok
Hello Liz and everyone, I’m fine, ofcourse! Lurking, miss you all but just got knocked off my YES CiF rhythm last week. Still spreading my daft brand of YES tomfoolery and joy online, facebook etc.
Just experiencing some CiF technical difficulties but normal service will be resumed soon.
link to youtube.com
@Orri says: 4 December, 2016 at 1:35 pm:
“Parliamentary Sovereignty rests in Westminster.”
No such thing as parliamentary sovereignty, Orri.
In the three country Kingdom of England the legal sovereign is Queen Elizabeth II of England. The very title tells you that she is the second Elizabeth Regina of England because there has not ever been a Queen Elizabeth of Scotland and her present designation in Scotland is, “Elizabeth Queen of Scots”. She, as monarch, in Scotland is NOT legally sovereign. Her job is, “Protector of the people’s sovereignty”.
In England, (the Kingdom), she is legally sovereign and thus owns everything including, “Her Majesty’s Government”, and Her Majesty’s subjects. Not to mention Her Royal Navy, Royal Air Force and the Soldiers of the Queen all of who must get sworn in and vow obedience to Her Majesty. She is also Head of the Church of England.
Westminster is a building and buildings cannot be sovereign, but it houses Her Majesty’s Government of Her United Kingdom. The law of the Kingdom of England states that all Their Majesty’s, from 1688 onwards must legally delegated Their Majesty’s Government to exercise Their Majesty’s sovereign powers of The Kingdom of England on Their Majesty’s behalf.
In Scotland she is supposed to protect the people’s sovereignty and a fairly useless job she has done of that.
It seems Her Majesty’s Government of the Kingdom of England has stolen the legally sovereign people of Scotland’s sovereignty and relegated The Kingdom of Scotland from being a fully sovereign partner In Her Majesty’s United Kingdom and made Scotland just another country that The Kingdom of England owns.
Legally, under Scottish law we, the sovereign people of Scotland, can legally sack her as our protector and appoint some one else to the job of Monarch of Scots.
Anyone care to nominate a candidate for the job?
A new law comes into force in Scotland on Monday – a ban on smoking in cars with children on board. Why were we, in the past, so slow to protect the health of youngsters? (England intro’d the same ban 2 years ago.) The bill was Lib MSP Hume’s idea after his wife died of PASSIVE smoking. I think it will be impossible for the police to enforce; ie Under 18’s included. Lets not forget the senior WM Tory MP’s whom were major shareholders/ execs of BAT, during the 80’s and 90’s when the American tobacco chief chemist, Dr.Jeff Wigand “blow the whistle” on US fag firms. The tobacco CEOs eventually being lined up in front of a Senate Investigative Commt and lying thru their tooth that, “Nicotine is not addictive”. The previous Labour goverments should have had the balls to take on these deceitful liars – but of course didn’t – to the detriment of most working families well-being.
O/T:
So now too wee, too poor and too bloody stupid Wee Scotland has four World Number One Tennis Players.
One wonders just how many we would have if we were independent and were not so wee, poor and bloody stupid.
Well done, Jaimie Murray, Andy Murray, Gordon Reid and Andy Lapthorne. Wee Scotland, (and Big, Big, English Britain are proud of you.
See yon Nicola Sturgeon!
She sud stick tae her day job o getting Scottish independence an no nanny state interfere wi oor Scottish freedoms tae smoke in oor ain caurs wi oor ain weans in the back o oor motors.
;-))
Robert Peffers at 12.52
I do a poll from YouGov about twice a week and have been doing so for a couple of years. I have NEVER been asked to do a political poll
@ Dave McEwan Hill
I’m also signed up to YouGov and I’ve done lots of political polls.
What have you done to upset them that I haven’t?
I write lots of stroppy things in the comments box at the end, so it’s not as if I’m not trying. 😉
Dr Jim @ 15:45:
Well, that’s the whole scummy deal in a nutshell.
heedtracker @ 15:50,
Glad to see you’re still alive and kickin’. Thought you might have been a little upset because your Slovene girlfriend has been sending out love-letters to everyone in Glasgow. =grin=
Robert – Andy Lapthorne was born in Middlesex. Wish he made our contingent up to four but I’m afraid it isn’t so!
However if England can claim the other 3 ………!
galamcennalath says:
“So many folks forget that the primary purpose of the EU is peace and stability in Europe.”
yeah, north korea is stable and peaceful
t42 – When did “north korea” join the EU?
t42,
Yeah, and they don’t have an immigration problem either. (Au contraire.)
Heaven for some (but only for a very privileged few).
Sarah @ 1235 p.m. and Glamaig at 12.57p.m. : thanks for the info, signed up now! Cheers
t42 says:
Not quite how I would have described it.
An impoverished isolationist regime with a pathological fear of foreigners.
Jeez, that sounds kinda like what somewhere much closer to home is headed!
@Heedtracker
Don’t be a stranger Heed. 🙂
galamcennalath @ 17:14
Plus dodgy missiles and dodgy nukes to go in them.
Truly an example to the world. (Guess what kind…)
This is a bit of subject but can anyone tell me whether the results and the findings of the recent SNP survey are going to be made public?I read that they were not.
The way to think about this UKSC thing is backwards.
To reject the appeal from the UK Government, the judges will have to consider all the parts of the two submissions from the attorney general, plus any additional points raised during the 4 days, and dismiss them all.
To uphold the appeal, the judges will have to consider all the parts of the original case of the plaintiffs turned respondents, plus all the submissions of the interventions, plus any additional points they make during the four days, and dismiss them all.
Now that’s going to be fun.
Looks like Katie Hopkins is onto plums in Austria as the Green candidate has won.
Slainte to the Heedster!
🙂
Ian
No idea but it will take weeks to plough through 2 million plus returns. Many of them will handwritten forms and will require loading manually onto a database to analyse the data.
I see Prince Harry’s visiting yet another Independent country (Guyana) who trades with England and lots of other folks as well
How do these little countries manage it, with their own TV service, Press, Radio, Industry, Not a world military power,
No WMDs, I mean Deterrents, The Russians aren’t invading them
Must be magic or voodoo eh, coz we just couldn’t survive could we
heedtracker
Good to see you mate and kudos for the bold re-entry. Pretty much relaxed jazz-hands, that was. 🙂
Interesting snippet turned up over on Wings twitter. Seems that the audience producer for QT is keen on EDL and Britain first stuff. That would help explain the seemingly odd makeup of the QT audiences.
link to twitter.com
Great News! We´ve kept the Heed!
Good to know that you´re ok Mr Tracker and thanks for the link to the You Tune.
That music brings back fond memories of the time I spent working as the lift attendant in the Red Road flats 🙂
t42
The t42 supper-heavy tank developed by the Russian army in the 1920s and ’30s, was slow and impracticable. As such, it’s design was not advanced and it did not enter active service during WW2.
Remind you of anything?
Mmm,just polishing up a standard posting or reply to put out in MSM where appropriate. I’ve got so far:
Any suggestions for an improved but still concise posting?
Good to see you back where you belong Heedtracker.
North Korea has been sanctioned and starved by the West for near on 70 years. If only survives by China helping it out. Like Russia helped out Cuba till recent times.
Boris Johnston could lose his seat. That is the reason for the flurry around the TV studios. A few worried people. Not following his constituency wishes? Big, getting bigger by the minute, fat salary and benefits going doon the pan. No back up plan or references. A rather short political career.
The MSM liars are disappointed a Nazi didn’t win in Austria. Total stirring The gutter Press will be fuming.
Check out the FMs Twitter
Full of abuse at her wearing a headscarf in a Mosque (because it’s not our religion)
I wonder which our religion that would be then
That’s the funny thing with Yoon abusers they don’t know there’s a difference between faith and religion and they’ve never read a history book explaining what they think they’re defending
Me? I’m pretty Zen about the whole thing
Dr Jim says:
Well, clearly there’s plenty that think so. While of course the sensible among us know we would thrive as the years passed.
A wealth of natural resources and an educated skilled population, what more does a nation need? Many have only one, or neither!
The two main reasons usually given for the UKOK establishment’s opposition to independence for Scotland is firstly they need our resources and secondly their prestige would be dented when the UK dissolved.
There is another which I have seen mentioned, so I don’t claim it as original at all. The last thing iEngland wants in the future is a more successful iScotland to its north. You can imagine the cries from their tabloids … “but but the Scots can do this and the Scots have that, what about us?”
Yes, we can “survive” and much more.
Dr Jim says:
Idiots. They have no idea about this country’s traditions.
When I was a child my mother always wore a hat to go out, even shopping. We weren’t church goers, but I can assure everyone, 50+ years ago NO WOMAN would have entered a Church of Scotland without a hat on.
Dr Jim
Particularly ironic as the mosque was an Ahamdiyya one and there was no requirement for Nicola to wear a scarf it was simply a token of respect on her part.
Respect….possibly a foreign concept to those mouthing off on twitter though 🙂
Wasn’t the uksc set up to divide judiciary and legislature as the HoL as a court, was no longer compatible with modern practice, might have been an EU requirement actually.
So home come some of the justices get to vote on brexit in the HoL ?
Here´s a suggestion.
For indyref2 why don´t we have the poll on a Sunday like they do on the continent.
Might help us get our vote out?
What does the panel think?
HandandShrimp says:
4 December, 2016 at 5:27 pm
“Looks like Katie Hopkins is onto plums in Austria as the Green candidate has won”.
Yes and apparently self appointed English Raj…..oops sorry I meant Radge Nigel offered his services pre election to the other candidate i.e. the far right candidate and Nigel’s services were rejected…..he also made prediction that his money would be on the far right candidate winning…obviously having another Trump moment and trying to relive it through his ‘The Donald’ association.
Here’s hoping the defeat of the far right candidate in Austria is a trend that is repeated next year in France….I’m sure oor Nigel will go down like a lead balloon if Le Pen is stupid enough to align herself to this ever so English buffoon by accepting his help in French elections. With friends like Nigel …..well…….Le Pen sure don’t need any enemies.
Monica Frassoni, co-chair of the European Green Party, said:
“European Greens are united in their support for Scotland’s efforts to retain their membership of the European Union.”
That strikes me as a strong statement from one of the EU party groupings represented by 50 MEPs.
link to greens.scot
Nice to see the prodigal return Welcome back Heedtracker. You were missed.
Hammond is slippery, he’s already manoeuvring to take over from May, no scruples, no empathy for anyone but himself, just a plain git!
Mundell is plain stupid, shrill beyond belief and someone who sell his country down the river for a pat on the back and glimpse of ermine!
Hey ho, the tory party summed up in two sentences!
WOS archive links for May/June 2012 now over on O/T.
We have a window of pos only 10% in which to work,we will never ever make any inroads into the unionist/orange vote,they will see this country buried and still not “see the light” we are being dragged down with them and can do little about it.
K. A. Mylchreest,
“The downside though would be that the government could face the ´howling mob´ and say with all innocence, ¨Our hands are tied, it´s all the fault of those Scottish barstewards¨ thus diverting their rage.”
That is exactly what their plan is as I had pointed out on an earlier article:
“The UK establishment does not want Brexit.
And what better way than to fudge it and blame the Scots for blocking it?”
The direction of the English Media:
So the far right wing candidate in Austria as he was described by the media lost the election, fair enough you might say, but then the media go on to say, but this is very important and he should be listened to
And it’s the last line in the sentence isn’t it “He should be listened to” ….Why?
The SNP win election after election half the country votes for them yet First Minister Of Scotland Nicola Sturgeon and her elected Government should not be listened to and are not important or certainly not as important as Paul Nuttall or any other Nutter from any country anywhere who’s right wing, Facist, or just downright headcases
And the most important thing about it is the SNP are not right wing they’re democratic, so there you have the priorities of the media and it’s owners along with the current government
Anything that’s right wing is good because it makes the EU look bad and that’s what they’re selling once again proving beyond doubt that the electorate don’t count, tell the mugs anything they want to hear as long as we achieve our objectives
Leave it up to the Brits and the Yanks they’ll get a war going as soon as they can, that’ll keep the plebs minds off the important stuff
Am no alone in ma relief in yer welcome return Heed…we’d be loast withoot ye! Cannae huv guid people goin’ awol when we’re sooo….close 🙂
@john young
LOL
That’s excellent, the best impersonation of a total defeatist fifth columnist gloom and despair “we’re all doomed” bending-down rear-exposing arse-licking anti-indy knuckledragger I’ve ever seen.
Well done!
Robert J. Sutherland,
“For these learned jurists, The Law is paramount, and they are well capable of following wherever it leads, if given a sufficiently well-argued steer.”
In my view, they are the lowest of the low.
They don’t give a damn about the law.
Their only purpose is to protect the establishment. They can and do fudge any law to do that.
The bastard Denning said it was better to keep innocents locked up than to admit that the judges had been wrong.
Same with Megrahi.
The justice system is rotten to the core.
@RP
I said in England for a reason ya phud .
If the twat from the government is correct, which we need no reminding he’s not, then Westminster can simply pass laws to leave the EU. His problem is that with Scotland removed due to his insistence that the London parliament is “sovereign” he misses an important point. He isn’t representing the those advocating Parliamentary Sovereignty he’s representing a government trying its best to usurp that.
Now if you’d get off your pedantic high horse and actually read what people write then you might have noticed I’ve mentioned before that Parliamentary Sovereignty is sourced from royalty in England but in Scotland royalty gets its authority from the people. As a further confusion the Parliament Act lend superiority to the House of Commons due to their elected nature. That last part is why there will never be an elected reviewing chamber as it would probably be elected by some form of PR and seem more legitimate than the HoC
At the moment the argument is that in chaining the Queen of England somehow powers were left in her hands to be exercised not by the advice of Parliament but instead by a subset of it appointed by the Prime Minister of the day. That without a clear definition of the role of Prime Minister which seems to have been created out of thin air at some point in the past. Fortunately the Scotland Act does specify that where use of Royal Prerogative affects devolved matters the First Minister advises the Queen. Which means that as, and it doesn’t matter that it’s only English law that allows it, refusal of Royal Assent is a Royal Prerogative our First Minister could advise the Queen not to sign any law for which Holyrood hasn’t given Legislative Consent.
Robert J. Sutherland,
“I don’t believe we’re bound to fail. I believe we have right on our side. I believe we will prevail.”
I hope you are right, but it is almost impossible for right to prevail in a rotten to the core system.
The supposedly “neutral” Electoral Commission delivered Better Together lies to every household at taxpayers’ expense because Better Together didn’t have the manpower to do it themselves.
@ Heedtracker – Rejoice! Glad to see you’re back on the Rancid The Graun watch.
Robert Peffers,
“@Elizabeth Stanley says: 4 December, 2016 at 12:27 am:
“I don’t agree with Rock and Joe mcg”
You are correct for they are both, whether they do so deliberately or not, doing the Yoon Loon lies and propaganda for the unionists.”
Why don’t you put your money where your mouth is and make a petition to the Scotland’s Court of Session to pronounce on our “sovereignty”?
As Breeks posted:
“If Scotland wants the status of our sovereignty to be recognised in law, and further recognised by the international community, then the Court will have to asked to address that issue specifically. That’s a catch 22 however, because the Supreme Court has acknowledged itself inferior to Scottish sovereignty, so it is only Scotland’s Court of Session which can deliver a determination properly in law.”
Cheer up Rock. It’s all coming together nicely. Whilst the Brexit Boys are strutting around, GrandMaster Sturgeon and her team are ever so carefully arranging the pieces in place for the final showdown. They are already thinking four moves ahead. Checkmate. Someone should tell the tough little Brexit Boys that it ain’t tiddlewinks they are playing, but I guess they will find out soon enough. 🙂
And don’t worry about the legal stuff (whatever happens next week). This is a political war of attrition and (hint) public perception is everything. Aye, it’s all coming together nicely. Couldn’t have hoped for a better scenario IMO.
BDTT @ 11:25
Brian
Thanks for the link…Billy Kay at 57:50…whit a speech,a belter,still buzzin.
😉
The whole britnat brexit dog’s-breakfast begins tomorrow. Other the next few months we will see England embark on a political civil-war; an ideal opportunity for Scotland to embark on regaining its independence, partly by fueling England’s discontentment with constitutional crises. It’s up to those of us who truly want Scotland to be independent again to stay positive. We are very close to our goal; over the next few months we’ll be even closer.
Rock,
“As I have been saying since the Brexit result, it is a complete waste of time to find a special EU deal for Scotland as a colony of England.
Neither the UK, nor the EU would allow it.
As I said then, Nicola should have called an independence referendum immediately after the Brexit result.”
Joemcg,
“I agree with Rock. Nicola should have called a snap vote immediately after the leave result. All this talk of Scottish EU concessions is verbal diarrhoea. it ain’t gonna happen. I just think we had a better chance of victory in those furst couple of weeks after the June vote.”
No ambiguity there right?
Wrong:
Ian Brotherhood,
“Interesting comment.
You say you agree with Rock, then go on to make statements which have nothing whatsoever to do with what Rock always talks about.”
Apart from the usual suspects, posters don’t have an ALWAYS “Rock Bad” policy. They agree on some points, disagree on others.
” They agree on some points, disagree on others.”
Nonsense. I disagree.
@Luigi 7:34pm
I agree. The most amusing part of it all is that it’s the britnats themselves who are doing the most damage to their so-called united kingdom. As relations between Scotland and England worsen – as they definitely will – we might as well enjoy the spectacle knowing that whatever transpires the land of britnattery will never be united and disintegration is assured.
Luigi,
“Cheer up Rock. It’s all coming together nicely. Whilst the Brexit Boys are strutting around, GrandMaster Sturgeon and her team are ever so carefully arranging the pieces in place for the final showdown.”
Hope you are right.
But never underestimate the UK establishment. I have a feeling that they are going to outsmart us again.
They don’t want Brexit, they will fudge Brexit and to put the icing on the cake, they will put the blame on the Scots.
Without conceding a millimetre to Scotland.
Rock-if you re read our two posts I was referring to your comment about us getting any special concessions and Ian brotherhood thanks for correcting my spelling although you do realise there is an auto correct facility that sometimes fucks it up? Ian Brotherhood, your posts make you out to be a wanker of the highest order and I don’t appreciate being called a “total troll prick” when I’ve voted SNP all my adult life for over 40 years and pounded the streets of Edinburgh and manned stalls campaigning for a yes vote for almost a year. Tosser.
Right, that’s everyone had there say now and the past is in the past. Please leave it there folks.
@Rock
Maybe the Scottish Government should have put a bill to the Holyrood parliament the day after a Brexit vote.
A draft bill on a second independence referendum has been published by the Scottish government after the first minister, Nicola Sturgeon, pledged to hold a new poll in the event of a hard Brexit in a direct challenge to Theresa May.
The draft legislation, which was formally unveiled by the constitution secretary, Derek Mackay, despite the Scottish parliament being in recess until next week, sets out proposals for the rules governing the campaign, the conduct of the poll and how votes are counted.
link to archive.is
Maybe that bill would have been passed by a majority with support of the Greens.
Maybe then a date could have been set and agreed with Westinster for an Independence Referendum 2.
Maybe the Yes side would have won this vote and we would now be Independent.
Maybe Nicola Sturgeon, her government and advisers thought about this and are exploring all options for a reason.
Maybe it is you that is wrong and Nicola Sturgeon a bit smarter?
As most seem to agree, we may only have one last chance for the foreseeable future. I’m happy to take that chance when it has been calculated our chances are best. Don’t you think private polling by the SNP to gauge support, talks with EU officials, building relationships and support from others first is the way to go?
What about forming a working group and determining answers to the currency question, EU membership, border controls. All of which will need to be answered during a second campaign for Independence.
Yes Rock, maybe “Nicola should have called an independence referendum immediately after the Brexit result.”
Then again maybe not and she has a better idea than you.
The point about trying for a special deal is that it severely limits the scope of any future Vow shite. A special deal might require the semi autonomous status Greenland has for one thing. They’re a prime example of Devo Max.
Given the history an experience it’ll take a lot of persuasion for the people of Scotland to talk for a promise of something so thoroughly dismissed without being investigated. Certainly if you’re being cynical going for that kind of deal and having it dismissed in such a cavalier manner is a fairly good return on the effort invested.
Rock @ 19:14 & 19:19,
Aw, can we have some relief from the constant negativity, please? You seem to be competing with that john young in today’s Downer Stakes.
So here’s a challenge. We all know fairly well what you don’t like (though the list does seem to be endless), so how about bending your mind to what you propose is the best way forward?
It’s a lot harder to put your head above the parapet with positive suggestions than to cringe deep in the trench merely grumbling…
As far as holding a Referendum immediately after the Brexit vote when support for Indy did rise for a bit, it would have been absolutely completely 100% totally impossible.
As Thepnr says, first the Bill in Holyrood and Westminster (or a court challenge if not), then Royal Assent, then the public consultation, then the question to the Electoral Commission, then the actual date and setting up all the polling stations. It just can’t be done in 2 weeks, normal time is a bare minimum of 9 months. By which time whatever short-term advantage there was from the immediate aftermath of the shock of the UK Leave vote, is long long long gone.
@Rock “They don’t want Brexit, they will fudge Brexit and to put the icing on the cake, they will put the blame on the Scots.”
That is a possibility that a good few people are considering, and it could be true. However, even if the UK Gov lose the appeal, their whole submission would have to have been considered in the Judges written judgement, and there’s enough there to move things on a good amount.
I was wary of saying this before just in case lose lips sinks ships, but whatever the outcome is of this case, win lose or draw, I doubt it’ll be the last time the Lord Advocate will be in the UKSC, in fact he’ll probably be camping outside the door. Plus the odd few trips to Luxembourg.
Apparently Wolffe is keen by nature, though not by name.
I appreciate you clarifying and comparing our two posts Rock, thank you. Obviously some people cannot read.
Meant “fall for” rather than “talk for”
bbc misreporting Scotland stickers plastered all over Inverness btw. Kudos to those responsible.
Rock says:
4 December, 2016 at 8:02 pm
But never underestimate the UK establishment. I have a feeling that they are going to outsmart us again.
Do you honestly think they “outsmarted” us in 2014? The so-called Vow and Gordzilla’s intervention were not genius master strokes, they were made out of trembling fear and sheer desperation. Look at the shit they have since suffered as a result. Oh and Dave’s EVEL speech on the 19th September went down well. So clever, was it not? And BREXIT…. ach we don’t even need to go there.
Nah Rock you give HMG far too much credit. Are they despicable? Yes. Are they sneaky? Yes. Do they have massive power at their disposal? Yes. Are they very clever? Some of them. Are they unbeatable? Definitely not.
Besides, they have quite a lot on their plate at the mo. The UK may rip itself apart before we even get another chance to vote again.
The majority in Scotland are not daft. They can smell a con miles away. No, for a number of reasons, many soft NO’s decided to give the UK one last chance in 2014. They will not be so generous next time. It’s coming, for a that. 🙂
@Joemcg –
Feel better now, getting stuff off your chest?
🙂
“Birds of a feather flock together.” So true that.
Labour’s branch manager in Scotland, Kezia Dugdale, will this week set out her ‘vision’ of further ‘powers’ for Scotland, as close to federali……..zzzzzzzzzzzzz
Seriously, Labour, FFS.
I just want to put it on record here, that several months ago, I seriously doubted the First Ministers strategy for Scotland. I said so here. I no longer have those doubts. Slowly, oh so slowly, it becomes very clear, that the Scot Gov is leading Theresa May and the Tories into a trap built from London’s hubris, arrogance and general contempt for all matters pertaining to Scotland. This week is going to be very interesting at the pretendy London ‘supreme’ court in England.
No matter what the result, The FM’s and Scotland’s hand will be significantly strengthened.
Luigi,
“Do you honestly think they “outsmarted” us in 2014?”
They very much did, Luigi.
I am totally against violence and non-democratic means, but no UK colony would have ever got independence if it played by Westminster’s rules.
I remember at several points in my life saying ‘How can they do that to Scotland? Isn’t Scotland an equal partner in the UK and the Scottish people Sovereign?’
I was always told that this was true but the English always denied it. The only way that it could work in our favour is if we could get it into a court of law, but the English knew that and would always avoid it.
Well I do not agree with those on here that think that Theresa May has some sneaky plan to blame the Scots or we would not be here at all. Some private individuals in England brought the case to stop the Royal Prerogative being used to trigger Article50 so that it could go before Parliament, and they won. Theresa May, not liking her absolute power up to now being interrupted, has insisted on appealing against the decision despite many senior tories in both Houses at Westminster screaming at her to stop.
Up until now she and her gang of Brexiteers have just been blowing with the wind of the vocal determined Brexiters who insisted on a hard Brexit. She has only changed direction slightly towards a soft Brexit since the loss of the safe seat in Richmond due to electorates feelings about the hard Brexit. She was never elected as PM and may have to go to the country in a GE and her main priority is keeping the tory electorate on side.
In going ahead with the appeal she has allowed what I do not remember in my lifetime, and others may know if it has ever happened during the duration of the UK. She has allowed the question of where power lies with regard to Scotland to be brought before a court. Remember that Scottish history is not officially on the curriculum of Scottish schools. Over 300 years they have tried to stop us from passing our history, culture and traditions on to future generations hoping that we would forget the facts and that England could just assume total rule. Well as can be seen here many in Scotland have not forgotten and teach their children. However it has become apparent that many in England most certainly have forgotten and regard Scotland as a colony.
The appeal in the SC will decide if the PM can use the Royal Prerogative to trigger Article50 and that is all that it will decide. However it has brought into the court the legal position of sovereignty in Scotland and will have to conclude where it lies in this day and age. Not only Scotland, Britain but also the EU countries and the diaspora around the world is watching.
If the SC decides that sovereignty lies with the Scottish people then that will be marked by all and will have to change the way the UK deals with Scotland and Scottish matters. Scottish votes and the Scottish Parliament will not be so easily dismissed and England will have to deal with it whatever happens next.
Rock @ 19:14 & 19:19,
Aw, can we have some relief from the constant negativity, please? You seem to be competing with that john young earlier in today’s Downer Stakes.
So here’s a challenge. We all know fairly well what you don’t like (though the list does seem to be endless), so how about bending your mind as to what you propose is the best positive way forward? Unlike many on here, I can’t recall you ever having done that before…
Luigi,
“The majority in Scotland are not daft. They can smell a con miles away. No, for a number of reasons, many soft NO’s decided to give the UK one last chance in 2014. They will not be so generous next time.”
There are 47% hard NO’s in my view. They are not daft, but very selfish and British Nationalist.
The establishment can very easily manipulate the soft NO’s.
If everything else fails, they can very easily rig the result.
Do not underestimate the UK establishment.
Robert J. Sutherland,
“so how about bending your mind as to what you propose is the best positive way forward?”
First step:
An immediate petition to Scotland’s Court of Session to clearly establish our “sovereignty”, or lack of it.
No fudges, no ifs, no buts. It is high time we know exactly what our status is.
Only then we can move forward.
Robert Peffers’ pedantry will not get us anywhere.
“Aw, can we have some relief from the constant negativity, please?”
Naw!
@Robert Louis
Well said.
Sometimes the tiniest and seemingly most ineffectual of actions instigated by a government in such a dispute can have epic repercussions further down the line.
I don’t think many in the opposition benches see yet what is coming. 😉
Ealasaid @ 21:12,
Well said there.
As I mentioned in the previous thread, the main advantage is indeed as a consciousness-raising exercise. This unique combination of Art.50’s insistence on due constitutional process for the UK as a whole and Teresa May’s hubris may yet prove the undoing of the Union. (Some on her side urged her not to appeal for that very reason.)
It doesn’t matter much, I think, whether the Scottish dimension is fully recognised by the Court or not; what matters more is that it is recognised by Scotland itself. That more and more people here finally begin to wake up to the fact that they are being treated as serfs, in complete violation of the Treaty of Union in general and now over Brexit in particular.
Yoons want the SG to use tax raising powers
I agree….Tax Unionists
Joemcg,
“Ian Brotherhood, your posts make you out to be a wanker of the highest order and I don’t appreciate being called a “total troll prick” when I’ve voted SNP all my adult life for over 40 years and pounded the streets of Edinburgh and manned stalls campaigning for a yes vote for almost a year. Tosser.”
Don’t get upset by the likes of Ian Brotherhood.
He is part of a group that have an agenda of their own and attack anyone who disagrees with them, without providing a counter argument.
As one of them says:
“Birds of a feather flock together.”
Yes, Thepnr, you and Ian Brotherhood are of the same feather, in my view.
Rock @ 21:21:
I can agree with that. (A self-referential post, even?) The rest not, though.
You seem to be suffering from your own special version of the cringe: “we’re too wee, they’re too big…”.
I see no justification whatever for claiming that there is 47% hard “no” support. If you truly believe that, you’re finally outing yourself as a defeatist at best and a troll at worst.
I can’t see anything on the horizon which will not weaken the union.With every twist and turn in this tumultuous time,Scotland strains a wee bit more against the chains that hold us back.
@Rock –
‘Thepnr, you and Ian Brotherhood are of the same feather, in my view.’
Cheers Rock.
I can’t speak for Thepnr, but I take that as a compliment.
FWIW , I regard you and Joemcg similarly.
And you can take that whatever way you like.
I don’t agree with all posters, nor agree with everything they post – I don’t disagree with all posters nor disagree with everything they post. What I do agree with is we are at it again. What we Scots always do – we love to argue amongst ourselves without considering that doing so hands the advantage to our ruthless, immoral opponents. Agree to disagree. Cut out the personal stuff and save your anger for the real enemies of Scotland: Unionists, the BUM, the BBC and the SCUM. I know Robert can fight his own battles but please lay off the personal attacks on him. His knowledge of Scottish history is way ahead of anyone else who posts here. You don’t have to agree with his conclusions but be respectful of his knowledge. Welcome back heedtracker. Bill
@Ealasaid
Excellent stuff! 🙂
Radio 5 Auntie running through the Supreme Court and Royal perogativeand it’s a slight embarrassment according to expert. (missed the intro)
First verdict unlikely to be overturned he says. Just gone off.
Any internet link for tomorrow anyone?
@Rock
“Yes, Thepnr, you and Ian Brotherhood are of the same feather, in my view.”
Hahahaha.
That’s exactly what I meant. You stick with your “flock” of losers, doubters and sour faced greeting pessimists. I’ll stick with mine.
mealer says:
That’s the way I see it. We are in the midst of changes which can only cause damage to the union and hasten Scotland on her own individual path.
As has been said before, Scotland.can’t do this by herself, we need the help of the Tories. And they certainly are doing their damnedest to help us on our way!
Rock says:
4 December, 2016 at 9:09 pm
Luigi,
“Do you honestly think they “outsmarted” us in 2014?”
They very much did, Luigi.
Nope, sorry. They most definitely did not. I completely disagree with that conclusion. The people chose in spite of BT not because of them. They “outsmarted” us from 25% to 45% YES by the end of the campaign Lucky for them we ran out of time.
And as for your claim of 47% hard NO? Take off 10-15% and you will be closer to the mark. 🙂
When did the school system stop teaching Scottish history?
Throughout my primary schooling (a long time ago in the 40s and 50s) we learned all about Bruce and Wallace, and at secondary school all about the reformation and the Jacobites and so on.
Of course we also learned about British history too. No problem with that, but who agreed the dropping of Scottish history and when did it happen?
So anyway, in the spirit of Christmas, and the BBC’s standard of reviews of the press, I’ve assembled some headlines from the Herald front webpage today:
“Boris pours cold water on Dugdale to back more powers for Holyrood”
“Supreme Court ruling in favour of MSPs Hot Christmas trends”
“How Dolly the sheep could lead to major advances in Ruth Davidson”
“PM orders crackdown on The future of Scotrail”
“Abbott accused of Labour Operation Jolly Roger”
“Live from Westminster, SNP savages”
“Euro Greens say ‘hang on to your festive hat'”
I’m looking forward to tomorrow’s issue.
@callmedave
I picked up this link to the Supreme Court earlier. Should be able to find it from there.
https://www.supremecourt.uk
Bill McLean @9:57pm
Seconded.
BBC national news item on Supreme Court appeal refers to British Law but no mention of the submission by the Lord Advocate or the Scottish constitutional implications
Radio 4 chatting about Article 50. Supreme court listen & watch on a BBC website tomorrow.
UK Government only 30% chance of winning but May should not have spent money and wasted time. She should have got a Bill to Parliament and pushed it through,says Tory and MSM guy.
#call me dave @ 2:25 pm
The Hootsman:
Analysis: Holyrood will not win veto in complex Brexit contest
link to archive.is
………………………………………..
You never know..
The Scottish Parliament and the Scottish Government were both made permanent by The Scotland Act 2016.
Holyrood is not devolved and The Supreme Court of the United Kingdom might take the view, Holyrood is the equal of Westminster.
The draft proposals on the Constitution, are discussed by the Lords Select Committees.
Scroll down to paragraph 62.. it’s under the heading..
link to publications.parliament.uk
“Permanence of the Scottish Parliament and Government”
While it is not discussed, being the ‘equal’ of Westminster, might entitle Scotland to having a veto.
I believe Scotland was pro Yes in 2014. I also believe Scotland is pro Yes now. And for what it is worth, I believe No can only win IndyRef2 by manipulating the vote.
The only way Scotland will not become Independent is if they won’t let us have it.
@Fireproofjim
I do not know when it happened. I only know that when at secondary school in the 70s I had to ask permission from my parents to learn Scottish history. It was not on the official curriculum and there was no exam for it, but the school was prepared to give us a week of Scottish history if our parents wanted us to have it.
I do not remember anyone missing from that class and the attention was intense. You would have thought we were watching a thriller with the exclamations coming from the class at every twist and turn. The teacher was asked to explain several times how it was that England did not become part of the Kingdom of Scotland when they lost their royal line, as there surely must have been some mistake!
Talking to some teachers in more recent years, they said that they give some Scottish stuff but it is not official. I guess it must be down to the education board what is taught and examined in Scottish schools. Don’t know if the SNP changed this.
@mealer who wrote “I can’t see anything on the horizon that will not weaken the Union”
I think you are right.
here’s Sinn fein’s proposal for a united ireland together with some thoughts on it and references to Scotland.
Different situations of course, but both countries are working towards the same aim though coming at it from slightly different directions at present.
I envisage a perfect storm for the UK if both referendums are held before the end of the brexit negotiating period – and everything to lose if we let this opportunity slip through our fingers
link to eurofree3.wordpress.com
Messers Ian Brotherhood & Thepnr I look forward to seeing You’s in your coats of many Feather’s, am gonae hit the Eiderdown shortly Ha Ha.
Capella says:
4 December, 2016 at 7:26 pm
@ Heedtracker – Rejoice! Glad to see you’re back on the Rancid The Graun watch.
Tis true. While Carbuncle wreaks havoc on our fledgling Scottish democracy from his Orkney redoubt, rancid The Graun black out all and any mention of the UK’s third largest Westminster party.
link to archive.is
All of this would be not such a rancid Graun creep out, if they just switched “England” for “British”.
Regarding the teaching of Scottish history or lack of it in Schools, I have just contacted the SNP for some clarification.
‘Hi,
There seems to be a bit of a debate going on on Wings Over Scotland about when Scottish history was dropped from being taught in Scottish Schools.
This did shock me a bit as I was taught about William Wallace, Robert the Bruce and the Jacobites in the 80’s.
I then asked my 13 year old son who is in Second year at ****** if he knew about W.W, R the B etc, and he said he knew about W.W and him fighting for Scottish Independence. I then asked him if he learned this at school. He then said no it was on Youtube Epic Rap Battles of history, W.W vs George Washington. Can you believe that.
Seriously, are our children no longer taught Scottish History at School, if not, why not.’
Will update if I get a reply.
ronnie anderson
Early to bed for you ronnie- are you no heading down to the court the morn to be on hand in case James Wolffe needs advice on a point of law?
Fireproofjim@10.13.
The only Scottish history I can honestly say I received at school was in primary7, by a fantastic teacher called Mr Donald McGregor.
All through secondary no Scottish history, so for that brief year, I was lucky enough to have a teacher who preached Scots.
I was also lucky enough to have a journeyman at work who was also very passionate about Scotland, and who basically gave me the beliefs I carry now.
I think that has always been a problem with Scotland in general, if the masses are kept in the dark they won’t know any better, and if you try and rock the boat you are cast as some sort of outcast.
Indy Ref2 AYE
@Ronnie Anderson –
Aye, fair do’s faither –
If you get a bird of paradise reeking of cider invading yer dreams, that’ll be yours truly.
😉
@One_Scot 10.37pm could not agree more.
I would go further and suggest they are actually trying to push us (without it being seen that way) into holding indyref2 sooner rather than later because they know that’s their best chance of manipulating the result.
The longer we wait, the greater the probability of a larger majority for Yes and the more exposed will be their manipulation.
At the next referendum, we really need some effective independent regulation that is not the electoral commission.
@ Tam Jardine Naw wie Brodie’s on £40 mil retainer tae the Scottish Parliament am no dain any Pro Bono work fur them, onnyhows I dont recognise the authority of the supreme court as lawfull & above the Court of Sessions Scottish Gov giving credence to a english court NAH.
Its a abject lesson in how to be subservient.
WM would have a tough job frightening voters about the future because they have no idea about the future and every promise made could pulled apart with ease.
The SG is acting in a very deliberate and professional manner so that they can present their case in a constructive manner.
The biggest fear that I have is that they offer something close to a Federalist state which could appease unhappy No voters into believing them again
On the teaching of Scottish history, the SNP reintroduced it in 2011, particularly at University level to produce the teachers.
We need a new Scottish history texts, especially for the last 55 years.
What’s all this 2116 The future
In 2014 Scotland voted against having a history, there is no such thing as a history of a country that doesn’t exist
The only history that is real and true is British history and it’s time Sturgeon and her troops realised that fact and got on with running her parish
Lord Neil Oliver has stated time and again these are myths put about by separatist Nationalist Geographers who weren’t even there
The people have voted so let’s put an end to this Scotland myth once and for all and call it by it’s real name
Scotburghley …. (Eats beard and twitches eyes erm erm)
A good test of how English history is used to obliterate Scottish history, ask anyone, Scots or otherwise who was king or queen of Scotland during the reign of Henry VIII?
Yet to meet anyone who can answer, without google.
At a guess, I would suggest James V or Mary…
‘Sovereignty is basically the belief that there actually is a God’
This from our resident self-appointed pedant. Sovereignty hasn’t come down from God since we stopped believing in a flat earth.
‘Sovereignty is understood in jurisprudence as the full right and power of a governing body to govern itself without any interference from outside sources or bodies. In political theory, sovereignty is a substantive term designating supreme authority over some polity’
Scottish history is a sorry one of religious and sectional division since the Reformation. The British Civil Wars, formerly mis-called ‘The English Civil Wars’ originated when Presbyterian Scotland forced the Stuart King of Scotland and England, Charles, to give up enforcing Episcopalianism on Scotland. From that point 1638 onwards the institution of Absolute Monarchy was doomed. The Cromwellian dictaorship of Britain ( Scotland , England&Wales and Ireland) began the end of the Stuart succession and the coup of 1688 led by the English Parliament finished it off by enforcing the exclusion of Catholics from the diminished institution of a ‘constitutional monarchy’ i.e disempowered one, and basically allowed de facto, the English Parliament to control the ‘British’ monarchy. It has done so ever since.
Scotland’s Assembly or Convention of Lords, the de facto Parliament, meekly accepted King Billy and allowed themselves to carry out atrocities such as the massacre of Glencoe on his behalf.Scotland out fought and out thought by Puritan England throughout the century finally capitulated after its ‘nobles’ lost their fortunes in Darien. This ‘parcel of Rogues’ sold the ordinary people of Scotland out. The Stuarts continued to try to retain their (rightful) claim to Scotland and England’s crowns but divided Scotland would not support a Catholic, having thrown our lot in with the Hanoverian successors to King Billy.
Since that point, the Acts of Union of 1706/7 were just a rubber stamp to de facto attempt to incorporate Scotland into England. Our aristocracy, church of Scotland. and legal system have colluded ever since to allow this. The 19th century and 20th century unionist party system accelerated the process. Blair forced into devolution by the EU set up the Supreme Court in an attempt to undermine Scots law’s authority. All to a deafening silence from ‘our’ judiciary. The Devolved Parliament is just that: devolved. That is its power is retained by Westminster. The only way we can dissolve this perfidious union is to have our MPs, (not MSPs) initiate a dissolution of the Act of 1707. The Monarchy is of no consequence. Power resides in Westminster. That is why the Supreme Court and all the rest is glove puppetry set up to distract from the iron fist holding us by the balls in the Palace of Westminster.
Remember every ‘Enquiry’ that has threatened Westminster’s standing has failed to undermine its power. Chilcot could have and should have led to an indictmentof Tony Blair for genocide. It voted against it. The legal system of England is enmeshed with the judiciary and the executive. They are as one. We will gain nothing until the Scottish party in Westminster exerts its sovereign right to dissolve the Union. This it is entitled to do based on a referendum of the Scottish people endowing the sovereignty, the authority, for our representatives to achieve this.
Re Scottish History being taught in schools: I had very little and it was mainly local.
However, in 1995/6 I was a Learning Support teacher in a south Glasgow school and 2 periods (out of 3) a week I supported a 1st year class in History. At that time they were studying the Battle of Stirling Bridge. Braveheart had just been released and the teacher who made up the unit on which the course was based devised it to reinforce the facts rather than the film’s ‘poetic licence’. He told me the “weans love it”.
I learned such a lot from that experience. I know my 7-year-old grand-daughter’s school teaches Scottish culture. And a few years ago I asked my now 17-year-old grand-daughter if she was taught Scottish history and, at that time, she was learning about Mary, Queen of Scots. Sorry, can’t remember the details.
link to facebook.com Aren’t we all
ronnie anderson
Brilliant… don’t be too hard on the Scottish Government but. Can you blame them for wanting to be there when May’s UK Government is told to GTF?
link to thenational.scot
Ronnie
RT to CNN all propaganda.
The only non propaganda output is from the BBC.
Oh yes it is, (Panto mode).
Thanks for that Ronnie, aye they’ve got the measure o’ the arrogant pricks richt enough…it’s good though that the wider world now sees what Scotland has been up against for centuries…we have many now ‘vocal’ friends who have our backs from here on in. Well done Westminster in revealing what a bunch of useless tossers ye really ur, for aw tae see.
@ Brian DTT
James IV till Flodden; then James V (who outlasted his uncle – and two of his cousins).
@ Chic McGregor Yes so heard from Nick Farrari ( there are no western reporters in Allepo) its all propoganda , and the Biggest propagandist machine Bbc aren’t there lol.
I was trying to remember the Scottish history which I was taught at school…nope really can’t remember distinctively Scottish history. Secondary school was even worse, so I can honestly say I was let down by Westminster, as my Scottish history was erased from my schooling from the 50’s-60’s. Thank goodness for Robert Peffers who has taught me so much…thankyou!
So I went looking and found this word doc. Quite entertaining…
link to centres.exeter.ac.uk
@ Heedtracker – phew! I was almost beginning to think I would have to read the Graun myself. Looking forward to next week’s by-election in the Tory-held Lincolnshire seat of Sleaford and North Hykeham. England.
Re Henry VIII – 3 years ago I suddenly became obsessed by the song “Floors O’ the Forest”. Looked up Wikipedia. Listened to Youtube renditions. Dick Gaughan by far the best IMO. Discovered that it was September 9th, the 500th anniversary of Flodden. Nada on Radio Shortbread.
So yes – I do know who was King of Scots in 1513, James IV.
link to youtube.com
Re History , At primary skool in Brodick, we had as Headmaster a Mr Jimmy Mathieson, who made sure we got nothing but Scots History, Scottish Country Dancing and Gaelic.
In those days the Primary Skool was also the Polling station, and on Election days he used to fly the Saltire from a flagpole in the Skool House ajacent to the playground.
If was a big disappointment when I went to Secondary Skool and had to learn French instead of Gaelic, I refused and got to fanny about during the French lessons.
I can remember only Scottish history at primary! whether thats the only history we got or its all I can remember I dont know.I have no memory of any history at all at secondary, but should have got it at least in 1st and 2nd year surely? My kids got Wallace and Bruce but nothing on other Scottish history. Sounds like its always been patchy across the country.
Early 60s Prim School in West ABZ, our Domini was a useless SOB !
I was lucky enough to pass the 11 plus , mainly by pestering my mother to explain long division etc.
To his credit , weekly he tuned into Radio Scotland for 20/30 mins on a Tues circa 10.30 whilst we listened to a “History” programme.
I would suspect it was transmitted specifically for Schools ?
It narrated Scottish history inc. battle stories WW , Jacobites , Glencoe etc etc .
We were later set Qs on the transmission, so some did listen intently.
Then it was ootside to play fitba , sometimes for the rest o the day.
At secondary school in the early to mid 60s I don’t remember being taught any Scottish History. In fact my last memory of History in 2nd year was being taught about the Tolpuddle Martys.
I chose Geography in S3/4 because the Geography teacher was young and enthusiastic and the History teacher, whilst being a delightful woman didn’t set the heather on fire. She was an Englishwoman married to a Scot but I always felt I was intruding on her private thoughts as she sat on the desk explaining what was, in effect, English History.
Going swimmingly then. 🙄
link to thenational.scot
RE: Kezia Dugdale’s huge, mahoosive, momentous, pan galactic federalist intervention speech with big wurds and joined up writing.
I’m more interested in joined up thinking.
Casting our minds back to 2014 for a sec. If a former Prime Minister with a green light from HMG, the backing and delivery resources of the collective power of the media and then still empowered Labour party could NOT and would NOT deliver a near federalist sooper dooper Devo Max.
Just what chance has Kezia Dugdale?
Anyone?
That’s what I thought. (sigh)
I´m still catching up with this thread but here for reference is my collection of links to some of the submissions to the SC. All worth reading if you´ve the kind of mind that likes to get into the nitty gritty — LOL!
Please copy and add to if you can …
Against the UK government :
Scottish Government :
link to gov.scot
Welsh Government :
link to gov.wales
Independent Workers Union of Great Britain :
link to supremecourt.uk
Backing up the UK :
link to lawyersforbritain.org
Enjoy! 🙂
OT but inspiring. Massive victory for passive and peaceful resistance at Standing Rock:
link to rollingstone.com
All rise.
Links – some may be a few days old, I’m still catching up.
FYI
link to supremecourt.uk
link to indyref2.scot
link to marksimonfrankland.blogspot.co.uk Donald’s story and link to fundraiser
link to irishtimes.com
Theresa May says human rights abuses shouldn’t affect Gulf trade policy
link to archive.is
Manfred Weber has a message for London arrogance
link to twitter.com
link to evolvepolitics.com
link to liberty-human-rights.org.uk
link to theconversation.com
link to rightsinfo.org
link to fullfact.org
link to blogs.lse.ac.uk
Hi Nana….how are you keeping?
Mornin’ Nana
A fine selection to start the day with.
Hope your break went well and those hands of yours aren’t suffering in this cold snap.
Hi Liz G
I’m fine thanks, been away visiting family and stuffing myself on birthday chocs and treats.
@Capella Belated birthday wishes.
There has always been a Scottish history course at Universities and Scottish studies. Included in most history courses are modules. A course made up often from choice. Or as timetable dictates. What fits in. i.e. European history, British history, America history, Russian history and Scottish Medieval History. Some people fell into by chance. Some students are more dedicated to a certain area of study.
Scottish Medieval History (taught by a Unionist) was a revelation. It really is so blood curling and romantic The intertwining of the various nations. The context of power through birth, through marriage etc. It is also quite straight forward to grasp for any younger person. It goes down a line and puts events in a chronological context gives a prospectus to present day.
Far better possibly than arable farming or poverty in the 18th century, a bit dire. To grip the imagination younger people. Or the standard Robert Owen and the Mills. Standard in any (British) history curriculum. Scottish Medieval history also give an indication of Scotland’s place in the world. Through inter connected marriage or kingship or kinship realtionships, which are still relevant to today. Really fascinating, including for youngsters. Scotland is one of the older nations and it’s influence has spread far and wide in the world. If only because of migration. It is intertwined with world history,
The Politic’s lecturer ‘Oxbridge’ who dislike Maggie Thatcher with a passion. As did many others. A politics lecturer, a Geordie who stood as a candidate for the SNP. A quite confusing time.
The hidden McCrone Report, the miners strike. The sense of political, social isolation and alienation, for many people. Mass marches. The EU was strong. Access to University was expanding. Did Thatcher increase access? Mature students. Everyone got a loan. Grants (non repayable) for all were phased out. Number of students was falling because of demographics. People having less children pro rata as a percentage of the population because of the free availablity of contraception coming through. (From 1960’s – 1980’s). No Greens. Some hippies. All roads led to London because of the massive corruption of the UK Budget. The North/South divide. Still ongoing but shortening because of Devolution. To stop Independence. The UK Gov blew the Budget. The illegal wars, banking fraud and tax evasion.
The Tories are back with a vengeance. Labour, LibDems have lost the plot. That leaves the SNP. Better than the good old, bad old days when Scottish history was partisan and parochial. British history dominated. It gives a prospectus, intertwined with other subjects, of Scotland’s place in the world. Some Labour MSP’s don’t like hearing Scottish accents on BBC Scotland. The alienation of the BBC.
@Macart
Had a lovely time, ate too much, drank too little [meds do not allow]
Aye it’s a tad chilly, hands coming back to life after taking the dug out. I used to love winter time, not so much nowadays.
Oh Jings!
I’ve done a wee tour of the news channels this morning and obviously the big story of the day is… the Supreme Court.
Did you know this is the UKs biggest test of its constitution ever? Wooooooooo!
Did you know that it calls into question the relationship between government, parliament and the people? Wooooooo!
I listened to government representatives, brexiteers, Conservative, Labour and Liberal sound bites, but someone was missing. A representative of the third biggest parliamentary party in the UK and who also happens to represent the co signatory of thone document which happens to form the United Kingdom.
Not one of them. Not a single channel mentioned the ‘S’ word.
Not one of them mentioned the fact that there is NO written UK constitution.
Not one of them dared go near the articles or acts of union which strikes me a kinda odd. Y’know, seein’ as how that document is what gives that parliament its ‘right to be’ in the first place.
You’d think folk out there in telly land would want to know this stuff, seein’ as how its fairly pertinent and all. (shrugs)
Nipping down to shop for massive munchies bag. This could be a long haul and I don’t want to run short. 🙂
@ French history. The French Revolution. ‘Let them eat cake’. The freak weather conditions. ‘The wind blew off the sea. Hailstones fell like golf balls’. The storming of the Bastille. The bloody aftermath. The American War of Independence. 1850’s European revolutions. The Russian Revolution.
@Nana
Know what you mean. I used to love frosty morning walks.
Not so much these days to be sure, but I still enjoy the sight through a window. 😀
Prof Bodkin, specialist in UK fascism and general
Arrogance, is just off of radio shortbread from his
Direct hotline. It seems that we do not require a
Supreme Court, or Scottish Government, or indeed
An opinion from the Scottish people?
He has studied law, and none of us matter, as the
UK Tories can in fact do anything they like?
Why is it the people in his constituency only gave
Such a brilliant all seeing mind as his only 7% of
the vote, in the Scottish election?
If ever they make Back to the Future 4, I have a good
Suggestion for the Nutty Professor.
There was an attempt by BritScot historians to rewrite the Battle of Culloden as British giving equal coverage to the English lead troops, and Scottish history in a purely British context, until Alex Salmond stepped in and made it clear there were two histories, Scotland and England.
Good morning Nana. Great to see you back with a fine bunch of links. Looks like a fascinating few SC days ahead with much to read. They have a live link here but think it may be busy! Starts at 11 am today:
link to supremecourt.uk
We can expect every tool in the British Brainwashing Corporation’s box of dirty tricks to be employed this week and beyond. Westminster will want to manipulate very carefully, all matters arising from the Government’s appeal in the Supreme Court.
Ready? Play!
a few more links
No doubt the bbc disinformation site will be along with their opposite findings soon
link to bertelsmann-stiftung.de
link to theslot.jezebel.com
link to army.mil
Some elements in the media are desperate to shut down any investigation into CSA.
Open letter from Chief Constable Mike Veale – Operation Conifer /Edward Heath investigation
link to youtube.com
Sky News .
Westminster Gov to have Primary School taught Tolerance & Respect.
Start with Your Corporate Media IDIOTS, all those free newspapers in Westminster & they come out with this shite.
The whole of the media world in the UK is in a state of denial about this trial.
Either they do not understand the full implications ,or they cannot envisage the significance of the submissions by the Lord Advocate and Aiden O’Neil.
It is almost the child like attitude that if you ignore it ,then it will go away.
This case has the potential to blow the UK apart,but there is not one mention on any source of that possibility.
@ Lochside, good post, watched Stark-Starin Starkey last night wittering on about James VII with a portrait of Charles II at his back, disnae know jack-shit!
@ Capella, anent the “Flooers o the Forest” I think there’s a fundraiser concert coming up for Dick Gaughan at the Celtic Connections, could be Karine Polwart?
Heedy’s back, Nana’s back..
NA-NA NA NA NA..
Nana NA NA NA
Nana NA NA NA
Na na NA-NAAA..
Please stand up.
Bob Mack says:
As always, it’s all about England. The media see it as a contest between England’s voters choice to Leave and others using parliament as a tool to thwart ‘the people’. As you say, that is just the iceberg’s tip.
Someone on here said the other day something like … Scotland is a far away country about which they know little, and care less. Stuck in my mind, paraphrasing Neville Chamberlain I believe,
It’s not just Scotland. The EU primary role is peace and security, and that includes Ireland. Literally peace is at stake there if the situation isn’t handled carefully and an open border retained. And of course this does impact back on Scotland because if Ireland gets a special deal, so can we.
Brexit is NOT about England’s relationship with the EU and how that is to be loosened. It is in reality about the current nature of the UK and what future it has, if any. The London centric media just don’t see the big picture.
@ Nana your links will have to wait, Supreme Court takes precedence . Welcome back I hope you are well XXX.
@ Heedtracker Chist as well your back ah wiz oan the verge of contacting Rebus, Hugs.
Angus Roberson’s on BBC parliament the noo.
Having been up to my arse in alligators, while trying to drain a swamp at the weekend, I am only now cathing-up with this thread.
I note dear Professor Tomkins coming in for some well-deserved pelters on here.
I watched FMQs on Thursday, at which he made a foolish and meaningless intervention, and have decided: Tomkins enjoyed the publicity he got when he would be asked to comment, or offer his views, in the papers and on BBC Shortbread.
Then he got such a lofty place in the Scottish Tories’ parliamentary list, he got to become a back-bench MSP.
Now he realises, he is largely voting fodder, he has no real power, he is, in fact, just a number.
He doesn’t like this, he cannot force through policies and change, and he has become bored.
He perhaps wants back to Academica full-time, where he has more power, but less responsibility, than he has at Holyrood.
“The London centric media just don’t see the big picture.”
Not so sure about that. They seem to understand very well the big picture that is Greater England.
(FYI – ASDA, Sainsbury’s, Morrisons and LIDL are all out of pop-corn. Wouldn’t want any of you going there just to be disappointed.)
@louis.b.argyll
Ssh or folks will be thinking Heed and I were off somewhere together.
@Heedtracker So we were awol at the same time. Good to know you are ok.
@Ronnie Anderson
Don’t think I can watch it all Ronnie. Will keep an eye on Peat Worrier’s twitter instead. Might make more sense to me of inferior brain unlike those supreme superior brains on the bench!!!
Hope everyone has a nice comfy cushion, lots of drinks and sweeties to hand. It’s going to be a long week.
@Lochside says: 4 December, 2016 at 11:45 pm:
“‘Sovereignty is basically the belief that there actually is a God’
This from our resident self-appointed pedant. Sovereignty hasn’t come down from God since we stopped believing in a flat earth.”
Well than, Lochside, (From your actual resident pedant): –
Sovereignty has never come down from God – ever.
It comes down from those in the power they gained from, “Might is right”, who exploit the ignorance of uneducated people who believe(d) that there was(is) a God.
These were the clever and powerful people who, in some cases, actually set themselves up as Gods. Which is why ancient monuments, such as the pyramids, were built in their honour and some modern heads of state are still regarded as Gods.
‘Sovereignty is understood in jurisprudence as the full right and power of a governing body to govern itself without any interference from outside sources or bodies.
So will that be why the United Kingdom’s Head of State is referred to as, “The Sovereign”, in England? Will it be why this:-
link to oremus.org
is the set-up of the coronation of the Sovereign Head of the United Kingdom?
So will that also be why they stick a book in your hand and tell you to swear by Almighty God when you are either in the dock or in the witness box today in Her Majesty’s Courts of law today?
“In political theory, sovereignty is a substantive term designating supreme authority over some polity’
Scottish history is a sorry one of religious and sectional division since the Reformation.”
Indeed! Except that is exactly as it always was – those who do not believe in God holding onto power by using God and religious belief to wield power over the uneducated and ignorant common people.
It was always thus.
” … The British Civil Wars, formerly mis-called ‘The English Civil Wars’ originated when Presbyterian Scotland forced the Stuart King of Scotland and England, Charles, to give up enforcing Episcopalianism on Scotland. From that point 1638 onwards the institution of Absolute Monarchy was doomed. The Cromwellian dictaorship of Britain ( Scotland , England&Wales and Ireland) began the end of the Stuart succession and the coup of 1688 led by the English Parliament finished it off by enforcing the exclusion of Catholics from the diminished institution of a ‘constitutional monarchy’ i.e disempowered one, and basically allowed de facto, the English Parliament to control the ‘British’ monarchy.
Indeed so! Just as your actual resident pedant keeps reminding you. The whole shebang is down to sectarianism and neither Catholics nor Protestants are one whit better than each other. Both use the belief in God of the ignorant common people to wield their power over the common people.
” … it has done so ever since.”
Aye! Just as your actual resident pedant keeps reminding you and it was always thus.
Except for the fact that the actual legal system of Scotland is exactly the opposite of what is now being, (as before), enforced upon the common people against their legally sovereign will, but who are mainly not nearly so uneducated as they previously were.
… Scotland’s Assembly or Convention of Lords, the de facto Parliament, meekly accepted King Billy and allowed themselves to carry out atrocities such as the massacre of Glencoe on his behalf.
Well no they did not, “meekly accept”. They were sucked into the Darien Scheme but by their own greed and self interest and that was engineered by the English parliamentarians and by London Scots. However there were also English troops massed at the Scottish border and an English fleet lying off the Firth of Forth.
… Scotland out fought and out thought by Puritan England throughout the century finally capitulated after its ‘nobles’ lost their fortunes in Darien. This ‘parcel of Rogues’ sold the ordinary people of Scotland out. The Stuarts continued to try to retain their (rightful) claim to Scotland and England’s crowns but divided Scotland would not support a Catholic, having thrown our lot in with the Hanoverian successors to King Billy.
Thrown OUR lot? How then do you explain the fact that, “Our lot”, were still being called Jacobite rebels and still being slaughtered, even innocent children, at Culloden almost 40 years after the Treaty of Union had been signed after being forced upon Scotland?
Exactly as your actual resident pedant keeps reminding you – sectarianism is at the root of the whole shebang even today and the actual written law says that the people of Scotland are legally sovereign and there are legally established precedents to prove it. The actual written law of England says that The Monarch of the English Kingdom is sovereign but they have to legally delegate, “Their Royal Majesty’s, sovereignty to Their Majesty’s Parliament of The Kingdom of ENGLAND”.
Your actual resident pedant is thus 100% correct in pointing out that there legally is no such a thing as Their Majesty’s Parliament of the Kingdom of England”.
Westminster is Their Majesty’s, Parliament of Their Majesty’s United Kingdom”.
It just illegally operates as Their Majesty’s parliament of the Country of England and it illegally devolves Their Majesty’s sovereignty of only The Kingdom of England to The Kingdom of Scotland that Their Majesty has no actual legal sovereignty over.
The whole point is that what is written down is not what is being enforced. In fact Westminster has appointed itself as the Parliament of the Country of England. It has cut off both Wales and N. Ireland as not part of England, (the Kingdom), and it classes them, and the Kingdom of Scotland, as under the Country of England’s ownership yet there is not a singe bit of written legal evidence to base that organisation upon.
And the betting is Jockland will be yet again f/kd over once again roll up roll up for todays Pantomime , Scotland 0 England 1 .
I might be busy and unable to watch proceedings.
Those that do watch for any mention of the ‘devolved’ Scottish Parliament or the ‘devolved’ Scottish Government.
Since they were both made permanent (and i’m assuming it was retrospectively) by The Scotland Act 2016, some of the judges might take the view that ‘devolved’ no longer applies.
If a majority agree, then it will mess up some of the submissions since the word crops up a few times.. especially in the Westminster Government’s
Looking at the bios of the judges in Daily Mail above, there does seem to be something of an attainment gap in the world of law. Only one of the 11 went to anything as lowly as even a grammar school. The rest are extremely privileged. The two Scots went to Glenalmond and Watsons.
Anybody here know anything about the law profession and what it takes to get to the top? Why is this?
Radio Shortbread 9am news bulletin this morning very dismissive of Scotgovs case. No chance, says expert. Why do they even take a view on this? Just report the news! e.g. How about a wee summary of all the appellants and their cases, and leave it to the judges to pass opinion?
Thanks Robert, I think, for the coronation playlist.
My severely abridged version is this..
..’..yay..Here is our rightful Queen, who we have crowned, we hope she lives forever..even though the last one died..’
God help us all, Charles next, then Wills. They’ll all die..despite God himself being on their committee.
@ Proud Cybernat Why but dear when you can buy much cheepness Popcorn pop along to your nearest Pet shop and buty some squab pigeon beans or anybudy roon aboot wie ah Dooket lol. Hurry up its startin .
Glamaig.. ‘Anybody here know anything about the law profession and what it takes to get to the top? Why is this?
It’s the establishment stupid…not you personally..but the UK STATE IS ROTTEN TO THE CORE.
Re : Scottish History in schools…
In the late 1970s/early 80s (on Lewis) we got taught Scottish history in S1/S2.
However it was made clear to us that if we chose to continue with History after S2 then NONE of the Scottish knowledge would be of any use as O Grade/Higher History dealt exclusively with English history.
You also wouldn’t be examined on any of the dodgier aspects of English history – like Ireland, India (22 million starved to death there – and for at least 8 million of them it was deliberate English policy which murdered them), Kenya, Burma, hell the list goes on and on.
What you got was happy-clappy England is wonderful – Tudors, Victorians with Nelson/Wellington thrown in etc.
That’s why not a single person from our S1/S2 classes went on to do history to O Grade.
I would just add to Mr Peffers excellent post by saying that sovereignty, even sovereignty derived from God, is only as good as the recognition and thus legitimacy it secures.
By the international standards of the day, the Pope, God’s voice on earth, recognised Scotland’s sovereignty in the 14th century, and that made it legitimate.
By the same token, sovereignty delivered from God does not fall apart because you cannot define God, because it was recognised as a legitimate point of origin by the standards and beliefs of the day, and secured common recognition as such. Once it is thus accepted and recognised, it becomes fact.
What makes the Declaration of Arbroath so significant is that the Pope, and through his eyes God, recognised a sovereignty which was not divine, in a medieval world where religion was everything. I repeat, in recognising the Declaration, the Pope did a thing that cannot now be undone, and recognised a sovereignty unique in its day. That may not have been his intent, but it doesn’t matter. It cannot be undone.
The issue we face in these current times is securing due acceptance and recognition of that legitimacy by the global community of nations.
Peat Worrier live tweeting from the supreme court
He says
I caution you now, this is as interesting as it gets
link to twitter.com
@louis b argylle
yes I was being disingenuous there. I guess its all about connections when you’re a young lawyer getting experience. A self-perpetuating system and a tough one to change. I wonder what its like in other countries.
Solicitor for the Treasury states that power of government to make war or peace is a basic constitutional fact— amazing for a country that has no written constitution!!
Glamaig, I think in other countries there is also an established route to establishment positions of power.. Hence the global disaster we all face.
Money is power by law..and old money got there first…Unfortunately.
Sky news over lay commentary not necessary thank fek its broadcast on the net
@Robert Graham says: 5 December, 2016 at 10:37 am:
“And the betting is Jockland will be yet again f/kd over once again roll up roll up for todays Pantomime , Scotland 0 England 1 .”
Ah! Robert, There is, for the very first time in history, a small, but very important, difference.
Whereas before the Westminster Establishment had, for hundreds of years, managed to brainwash the entire World, (including Scotland), that Great Britain, The United Kingdom, Britain, and England all meant exactly the same thing.
Even many Scots just accepted that the World at large often, “accused”, us of being English.
Now, because of, “Brexit”, (and the very term itself is a brainwashing exercise by Westminster because Britain will not be exiting the EU because Britain is not an EU member state). Now all Europe and the World are paying close attention and they have all realised that the term they thought described a unified country of four former countries is not what they thought.
Now they realise that the term, “United Kingdom”, literally describes a bipartite United Kingdom and that the Kingdom of Scotland is not the same as the Kingdom of England.
Their obvious next thought is that as it is a kingdom how come that England, (the country), is treating the other three countries as if The Parliament of England was the boss and the rest of the United Kingdom countries were parts of England.
A very big penny has finally dropped. Now what Westminster does within the United Kingdom directly affects all of the Europe and the EU affects the rest of the World’s economy.
We already hear of EU parliamentarians speaking and acting on the premise of Scotland, The partner kingdom moving in the opposite direction from the Kingdom of England and, more to the point, they are speaking as it being acceptable to have the partner that wants to remain European as the successor member state and the one who wants out to not only get out but be thrown out.
The World, for the first time ever, is watching closely and judging what the SC judges are doing. The SC judges are now about to be judged by the World.
The World is closely watching and mainly are approving Scotland as a full partner in the bipartite United Kingdom.
One of HMG counsel’s arguments in the SC is that WM sometimes exercises its sovereignity by doing…
…nada! (No wonder Corbyn feels so much at home in there!)
mr thms @10.44
RE the permanence of the Holyrood Parliament was it not the case that WM refused to include permanence in The Scotland Act 2016 which means of course that WM could abolish The Scottish Govt. at any time and impose Direct Rule as they did in NI in the 70s.
Just listened to Shortbread’s vox pop on Brexit, thick folk are unfailingly selected. How do they manage this?
Mr Eadie presenting the case for the government keeps referring to Parliamentary sovereignty in his arguments. However that is distinct from the government utilising that power on their own behalf without consultation with Parliament.
I think the judges have noted that difference already.
@Breeks says: 5 December, 2016 at 11:07 am:
” I would just add to Mr Peffers excellent post by saying that sovereignty, even sovereignty derived from God, is only as good as the recognition and thus legitimacy it secures.”
Thank you, Breeks. I was beginning to think I was speaking to myself. You have put that much clearer than I had done.
Now I better say this is only my own opinion, or certain commenters will be again accusing me of pedantry.
It is my opinion that the acceptance of the Scottish people’s legal sovereignty was indeed subverted by that of England for as long as there has been an, “Angleland”, that came after the Romans left Roman Britain”.
From Roman times England has been ruled by various factions of the Germanic tribes and even Scotland itself became ruled by Norman, (that name is short for Norsemen), Knights. The big difference between the two subsequent kingdoms was that the Normans did not take over Scotland by, “Might is Right”, but by intermarriage and integration.
Amazingly that is still the difference between the two kingdoms today. Scotland is far more accepting of immigrants and remains far more outward looking than the rest of the United Kingdom. A trait also evident in the Republic of Ireland. Yet todays Scots are generally really none too knowledgeable of their own heritage and history.
Westminster still clings to a House of Lords wherein sit hereditary peers descended from those Germanic Tribes. Joined by the Bishops & Archbishops of the Church of England and Law Lords all drawn from the same line of aristocrats of those same Germanic tribes.
For example Gideon, (George), Osborne is heir apparent to two ancient Irish Baronetcies stretching back to what is known in Ireland as, “The Ascendancy”. These were implanted English Aristocrats into Ireland by the English Monarchy it their quest to subjugate Ireland.
Which, BTW: was a move originally backed by the Papacy in Rome before they fell out with the English Monarchy who had set themselves up as heads of the church of England. The beginnings of sectarianism.
Anyway. the acceptance of the Scottish people’s legal sovereignty has long been overlooked by the World at large even if the most powerful nation on Earth, The USA, and Canada, also in North America, were strongly shaped by Scots and Irish Scots with even the American Declaration of Independence drawn up and signed by a large Scottish contingent and based upon the Scottish Declaration of Arbroath.
Any Scot traveling the World will be tired of explaining to the natives abroad that Scots are NOT English but are Scottish and British.
Anyway, thanks to Brexit, now the World is sitting up and paying attention again and mainly only because the EU is the largest Trading Bloc in the World and thus Scotland’s place in the EU could affect the whole World.
Perhaps, as the World looks on, Scotland’s sovereignty may just be becoming recognised again. Not before time though.
I would hope that at some point that the SC would catch on when Eadie was talking about Constitutional Treaties & question What British Constitution was he referring to.
Over to You Mr Petters
A further complications in all this is that if sovereignty did derive from God in Scotland we, generally, have said God acting through a church that is in most respects a democracy rather than the RC ersatz Church of England. Certainly at one point in our past the Covenanters had an army to enforce their interpretation of the will of God.
So sovereignty derived from God is a blind alley in Scotland as we democratised even that into the hands of the people. Probably because even if we believed in God we had no faith in those claiming to speak for him.
@ Robert Peffers Sorry Robert for name mistook
Peffers what is your point? Did you even understand my post? Your pompous self righteous rant,was predictable and pointless as usual. You can’t teach me anything except that this blog is becoming dominated by self appointed humourless navel gazing pricks like you.
It used to be a truly informative and often entertaining experience before you started your endless diatribes about ‘sovereignty ‘ a word that you wouldn’t understand if it landed on your big arrogant head.
Why is it that every nation on this planet believes it has Sovereign power, but there are Scots who do not believe it ? God has actually little to do with it in many cases eg China.
Sovereignty exists whether you agree or not.
The question to be settled is rather basic in Scotland. Who is sovereign? The Queen Parliament or the people , and what is the legal origin and basis for that claim?, and (b ) are those reasons still legally relevant?
Lochside..
Dearie me Lochside…back in the day(s) we’re referring to, you’d have been one of those lobbying to shoot messengers and burn witches.
Robert is all over you, show some courage and accept corrections and historical subjectivity.
And don’t have a go at me now..
gus1940 says:
5 December, 2016 at 12:28 pm
“was it not the case that WM refused to include permanence in The Scotland Act 2016 which means of course that WM could abolish The Scottish Govt. at any time…”
I believe it is included or I am indeed missing something:
I took this from link to legislation.gov.uk
“1Permanence of the Scottish Parliament and Scottish Government
In the Scotland Act 1998 after Part 2 (the Scottish Administration) insert—
63APermanence of the Scottish Parliament and Scottish Government
(1)The Scottish Parliament and the Scottish Government are a permanent part of the United Kingdom’s constitutional arrangements.
(2)The purpose of this section is, with due regard to the other provisions of this Act, to signify the commitment of the Parliament and Government of the United Kingdom to the Scottish Parliament and the Scottish Government.
(3)In view of that commitment it is declared that the Scottish Parliament and the Scottish Government are not to be abolished except on the basis of a decision of the people of Scotland voting in a referendum.”
Louis b.Argyll…’Don’t have a go at me now’?…aye but you can stick your neb in and do it to me eh? I burst a rib at the bit about Peffers ‘being all over me’.. more like all over the shop.Care to list how the blessed bore of Fife did that?..you insult me by insinuating that I am some kind of inciter of mob rule and displaying unreasonable behaviour towards your hero. Your jumping in uninvited is far more characterstic of atavistic unthinking loyalty to unreasonable beliefs than my post merited. …Tell you what Louis B just take a right royal ..that’s both kingdoms,,, fuck to yourself and get back in line with the rest of them and get your head back up the blessed Peffers arse where it belongs.
This from the Highland Times today:
Tory MSP Adam Tomkins has today admitted that the Tories will not fight for the best deal for Scotland during the Brexit negotiations.
Speaking on Good Morning Scotland, the Tory MSP said:
“What we need to do is not get the best deal for Scotland; we need to get the best deal for the whole of the United Kingdom.”
Mr Tomkins also accepted that the UK was headed for a hard Brexit, stating that Brexit means “taking back control” of national finances and immigration.
These pledges are despite David Davis’s admission that the UK may agree to pay large amounts into the EU after leaving and Ruth Davidson previously pledging to support the single market, even if this meant continued freedom of movement.
@Lochside
Are you an MI5 PLANT?
OT posted on link to indyref2.scot Good Article
twathater
5 December 2016 at 18:01
I agree wholeheartedly with Dan and Peter A Bell, is this just another ploy to muddy the water,get minds focused on diversions, we have already voted decisively to remain within the EU. I personally have thoughts either way , BUT and it is a big BUT independence takes precedence over all the false pronouncements made by the BT corrupt self absorbed cabal.
I am totally sickened by the Westminster denigration of our country and countrymen/women , we are a proud people and country and the attitude and derision displayed in the HOC toward our representatives , yes our representatives , is plain for the world to see .
We are ignored ,berated, and vilified by a ignorant self obsessed herd of animals , we have never been equal or partners as is currently being evidenced, and anyone who imagines that this will change in the future is seriously deluded
I seriously ask the Scottish people, why would you want to put up with this , do you have so little self RESPECT, this is akin to an abusive marriage where one partner mentally and financially continously debases the other.
If it were a member of your family or a friend who was suffering this, would you advise, keep taking the abuse in the forlorn hope that it would get better , or would you advise getting out of the relationship and make a new start into the future , I know what I want
INDEPENDENCE to stop the abuse
Naw…he’s a thistle plant shurely Undeadshaun? Aw jaggy and bristley by the lochside;-)
Guys don’t don’t do this to yourselves. We are some of the few people in this country who are beginning to grasp the true measure of how Scotland’s constitutional problems can be addressed and properly sorted.
That is an understanding which must be spread throughout the country, and spread consistently until it is common knowledge.
Of course we can bicker, and draw different conclusions from the same evidence, but the essentials of what we believe in are the same.
I have asked a question repeatedly about where an Independent Scotland would draw its sovereign power. We all know the answer, it will draw it from the people of Scotland as was recognised and legitimate in law in the 14th Century. It is the same sovereignty we now seek.
All this modern day talk of referenda, propaganda, devolution, even democracy itself is all a game, because it pretends to respect and enact Scottish sovereignty but it does not. When the tide of self awareness comes in to wash away all that is impermanent, ALL that will remain is Scotland’s sovereignty, and 300 years of faux government built upon lies and distortions of the truth will be gone.
There can be no other conclusion to this. The issue is how long we play our part in the charade.
Guys don’t do this to yourselves. We are some of the few people in this country who are beginning to grasp the true measure of how Scotland’s constitutional problems can be addressed and properly sorted.
That is an understanding which must be spread throughout the country, and spread consistently until it is common knowledge. Don’t lose what we have to acrimony and rancour.
Of course we can bicker, and draw different conclusions from the same evidence, but the essentials of what we believe in are the same.
I have asked a question repeatedly about where an Independent Scotland would draw its sovereign power. We all know the answer, it will draw it from the people of Scotland as was recognised and legitimate in law in the 14th Century. We have endured a 300 year detour away from the critical path of Scotland’s national evolution, but we are so very close to finding the correct path again. It is the same sovereignty we left behind 300 years ago that we will find when we get there. True and faithful to us, and no other.
All this modern day talk of referenda, propaganda, devolution, even democracy itself is all a game, because it pretends to be built upon respect and enactment of Scottish sovereignty, but it is not. When the tide of Scottish self awareness comes in to wash away all that is impermanent, ALL that will remain is Scotland’s sovereignty, but 300 years of faux government built upon lies and distortions of the truth will be gone.
There can be no other conclusion to this. The issue is how long we continue to play our part in the charade. Nothing stands upon a solid foundation in this country of ours until it is built upon Scotland’s inalienable sovereignty.
It isn’t Independence that we seek. We have had it all the time, but have been blind to it. What we seek is emancipation from an oppressive faux government which has subjugated our sovereignty and bewildered us with lies and bullying in order to plunder our resources for its own ends.
Lochside,
“before you started your endless diatribes about ‘sovereignty ‘ a word that you wouldn’t understand if it landed on your big arrogant head.”
Exactly.
Robert Peffers hasn’t got the foggiest idea of what “sovereignty” means in practice.
His pedantry will get us nowhere.
Why doesn’t he put his money where his mouth is and make a petition to the Scotland’s Court of Session to pronounce on our “sovereignty” once and for all?
We will all crowdfund him.
Lochside..Oh wait..yaaaawn..
..oh yes..stop swearing at me..after I merely used civilised language to propose that you show respect to others.
I could easily swear here, now. But wait..
Yaaaawn, oh yes..Oh never mind.. away and scheme with Rock to smear (strangely) only certain people you PRETEND to be on side with.
I didn’t know the Independence movement had a Philistine wing, sorry Philistines.