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Wings Over Scotland

From the archives #14

Posted on June 29, 2020 by

We were rummaging around semi-aimlessly in the vaults last night, readers, and we were rather startled to come across this:

Shows what YOU lot know, eh?

Wings, of course, is actually good at predicting stuff, so we DID see PM Boris coming, three years in advance:

Unlike certain people we could mention.

In that June 2016 article we were warning that a factionally-divided Labour were in no danger of winning the next election, although we were a few months out on when that might be (and to be fair we overestimated the number of MPs who’d have the integrity to quit Labour over Corbyn and join a new party):

So while we were on the subject of Labour being hopelessly unfit for office, it was fun to revisit another finding from the same May 2014 poll:

Ten years is 2024, which means that barring any dramatic unscheduled events, next year’s Holyrood election is Scottish Labour’s last chance to provide a First Minister before time runs out. If you’ve got money on it, folks, you’re a braver person than us.

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    1. 30 06 20 03:26

      From the archives #14 –

    674 to “From the archives #14”

    1. Tackety Beets says:

      Aye, hinsicht……….as usual Rev you wisna far awa.
      Blair MacD………a better nae say, still gettin’ up aff the fleer, even tho’ I have viewed the clip dozens o times before.
      BM give Doris a run for his money at the “Bafoon Races”

    2. bobajock says:

      I remember vividly the ‘no way’s, the ‘nobody that stupid could get in’. That video … I watched that live, and agreed with the unionist … it could never happen.

      Like Brexit, like Trump, like Bojo, like so many mad things.

      The media < that is all.

    3. Polly says:

      That’s a stonker of a post from 2016. Labour are often self defeating and now it seems the snp is following that lead. You do have a very good record of getting political predictions correct, unlike many big named pundits or journalists. I don’t know what you’re like with poker but I wouldn’t bet against you in much to do with politics, you’ve been too good a Kassandra for that. Thankfully many independence supporters see that and do believe what you write.

    4. Muscleguy says:

      The Unionist parties just don’t get it. They are losing because so many do not see them as honest or competent. The SNP get marks for both.

      SLAB and the Tories are still lying to folk, still taking them for fools. As for the other pipsqueak whose name and party i’ve forgotten who cares? Poor Charlie Kennedy knew what going into Coalition with the Tories, the Laird’s party would do to support in the Highlands and Islands. SNP support is increasing with every election in the Northern Isles. That sustaining short money might not last much longer Unionist folk.

      The ISP is coming for seats on the List next year and it’s Unionists who will lose out. Tick Tock.

    5. Jason Smoothpiece says:

      In fairness Boris Johnston as PM who would have predicted such nonsense.

      The Boris is now PM and we shall reap the reward of that mistake.

      Ordinary folk in England voting Tory they are not like us are they?

      However they are entitled to vote whatever way they want, for the Tories, for Brexit. It is their absolute right.

      We are also entitled to vote they way we want, for example for independence…………….oh wait my mistake we are Scottish we don’t get to do that democracy stuff silly me.

    6. Breeks says:

      My feet are firmly in the “l know nothing”, camp.

      On the 24th June 2016, I was 100% convinced that Scotland’s Sovereign Constitution, and the emphatic democratic expression that Scotland rejected Brexit, marked the Constitutional watershed which broke the back of the cursed Union.

      Scotland’s Independence was won. The Union was constitutionally untenable. Scotland would secure holding pen status for EU membership. All that was left was a ratification plebiscite, and the not insubstantial small print of physically dividing the U.K.

      Do you all remember, back then there was an opinion floating around from, oh I forget, some lawyer, which explained the constitutional position pretty accurately and concisely, and ended up saying, “…don’t worry, the SNP are good on this, and have it covered”.

      Feels like a lifetime ago….

      Fucking politicians.

    7. susan says:

      Scary stuff Stu.

    8. Vivian O'Blivion says:

      So, Yes voters were inclined to believe in Boris Johnson for PM by a margin more than twice that of any Unionist party voter. Who’s got their finger on the pulse?

    9. Gary45% says:

      I think a big box of Brasso delivered to BM as soon as possible.
      I can recommend a book by Fintan O’Toole called “Heroic Failure, Brexit and the Politics of Pain”.
      Its a brilliant read, and helps explain why the UK voted leave.

    10. Bob Mack says:

      This is exactly why I listen to you Rev,rather than the various pundits so often found in Wings and other sites.

      You predict the improbable and sometimes the impossible with incredible accuracy.

      I know many have absented themselves from Wings due to your criticism of the SNP current ideological madness or indeed apathy, but once again you have shown you were telling nothing more sinister than the simple truth.

      I say to them in all honesty that before the SNP give them what their heart desires,they will look like Miss Faversham, resplendent in cobwebs and mouldy dreams of the past, but bereft of Great Expectations.

      Our time is now. Our aim is clear. We only require a leader or a party with the courage to make it possible.

    11. Willie says:

      Absolutely astounding how in 2014 only 7% of Tories thought Boris Johnson would ever become Prime Minister.

      So what changed?

      Even more astounding that the Beasts of England voted in a General Election for him. But maybe we in Scotland actually knew that.

    12. auld highlander says:

      And now we have Hair Force One with that awful fleg.

    13. Astonished says:

      As of tomorrow we are definitely leaving the EU. There is no possibility of an extension.

      Nicola Sturgeon and Ian Blackford said Scotland would not be dragged out of the EU against our will. Are they just all talk ?

      I don’t just expect action tomorrow. I demand political fireworks.

    14. Joe says:

      Nicola Sturgeon/SNP leadership are there to say soothing things to keep you in order while the clock runs down to…something you’ll realise in good time.

      Trouble is their bosses are on the slippery slope. When people find put the truth they wont be able to show their faces in public again

    15. Joe says:

      None of the official options that Scots have in front of them were ever going to lead to autonomy and self determination. Ordinary people do not simply get to walk away with a potentially very wealthy nation and live happily ever after.

    16. Colin Alexander says:

      Regarding the Forward As ONE indyref case. I welcome it and hope they win.

      That it was left to a crowdfunding group of activists to do this, speaks volumes about the SNP.

      However, indyref itself was NEVER the real issue anyway. The issue is that in the UK, UK Parliament is sovereign and so referendums are regarded as advisory unless legislated to be binding.

      The SNP have no intention of holding an indyref even if the Scottish Parliament can hold referendums.

      They have no intention of having a plebiscite election on indy.

      Labour accepted the House of Lords would have to abolish themselves – so it never happened,

      the SNP have accepted dissolving the Union can only happen with UK Parliament approval.

      So, vote “pro-indy” if it makes you feel good at stopping some Labour or Tory candidate from being elected but, poor you if you think an SNP or pro-indy Holyrood majority will bring indy one centimetre closer; it won’t.

    17. The Isolator says:

      If only Nicola Sturgeon had put as much effort into pushing Scotland forward as an independent nation as opposed to saving the red /Yellow and blue Tories in England from themselves we would have been well on our way with it and at least a back door into Europe.

      When she addressed the stop Brexit rally in London I knew we were goosed. She just threw it all away.FFS there aren’t enough face palms for the bold Blair in the clip above.

    18. Joe says:

      Just listened to Mr Hate Speech Humza talking about the challenge of institutional racism in Scotland.

      O.K then.

      No doubt the solutions to this very obvious (and real!) problem will involve more government action against the population.

    19. Ottomanboi says:

      and Scotland 2020, independence still an old men’s pipe dream…
      Things fall apart, the centre cannot hold….OH YES IT CAN!
      Are we holding the road map the right way up?

    20. Joe says:

      Seriously, ive not watched anything from the Scottish parliament for over a year. Probably more. Used to watch regularly when Salmond was FM. I knew not to watch it as id want to vomit.

      Still im almost shocked at what im hearing with the knowledge that these people still get votes.

      Scotland has been taken over by radical, cultural marxist, intersectional ideologues.

      Thank fuck we are not independent just now.

    21. Effijy says:

      With regard to Boris paying £1,000,000 for an upside down Butcher’s Apron Flag
      To be put on his commandeered airplane, have no worries, he is going to use it to
      Visit Australia and New Zealand where they are upside down.

      In the Northern Hemisphere Boris has instructed the pilot to fly upside down, especially
      When landing to make the maximum impact.

      Same train of thought he used with the Corona Virus.

      In Boris we mistrust!

    22. Ottomanboi says:

      Racism and identitarian politicking sure signs of idle hands among ‘the elect’.
      Quality not quantity…maybe the SNP and its many complacent deputies getting a good thrashing at any future election might be the answer….or a total reboot?
      We ought not to be in such a situation.
      What is to be done?
      The done that has been done is manifestly not purposive.

    23. Polly says:

      Bob Mack 9.24

      Bravo and my feelings exactly.

    24. Joe says:

      Holy shit folks. Last post for a while honest.

      But…they are going on about different things happening in the US. Talking about our privilege as Scots. Talking about events in the US as if they are relevant to the majority of Scots.

      How can anybody cast a vote for ANY of these fucks?

    25. Effijy says:

      I don’t believe that any form of discrimination is positive.

      Humza’s extensive speech listing lots of top jobs are all held by white Scots is suggesting that
      The best person for the job should be bypassed in favour of another contender’s skin colour.

      Are we not seeking a society where skin colour has absolutely no relevance?

      We are quite new in becoming a multi cultural society.
      I recall my shock as a child without a TV in the early 60’s seeing an Asian man. A Sheik with
      His turban and long white beard.

      We ran away from him fearing he must be the person your Mother said would take you away, if
      You didn’t behave.

      We have made great strides in integrating over these last 50 years and I know of no other country
      Who make immigrants more welcome but yes we must continue to make progress but not by replacing one form of discrimination with another.

    26. Colin Alexander says:

      The SNP’s attempts to try and prevent Brexit made absolute sense if you accept the SNP knew independence wasn’t going to happen, or to put it another way, Scotland would remain part of the UK.

      The reason they knew: When Sturgeon became the SNP leader, the SNP became a devolution Unionist party.

    27. Capella says:

      IIRC Nicola Sturgeon also predicted that Boris Johnston could become the UK Prime Minister, much to the derision of even the Tories. Lots of fingers on pulses.

    28. William Habib Steele says:

      Stuart, I wonder if you would comment on this article, which I find very alarming. It seems to me it makes independence for Scotland and Wales urgent, before Brexit happens.

    29. dakk says:

      Didn’t take long for thread to turn in to a Scotland too wee too poor too stupid, SNP bad diatribe.

      Not much predictive insight needed to know that was going to happen on here.

    30. Bob Mack says:


      What diatribe? Nobody has mentioned too wee too bad or too poor. That my friend comes from you and you alone.

      We here on Wings all want Indy. We want it tomorrow. We have faith in our ability to make a better country.

      Sadly the leaders do not. Perhaps it’s them your remarks should be addressed to instead.

    31. defo says:

      Any tips for the 3.40 at Ayr Stu?

      Can’t wait to see how psycho babble can be linked into this post.

    32. ahundredthidiot says:


      the problem with your argument is that ALL the evidence so far proves the theory that we are too wee, too poor, too stupid.

      We are still tied to the UK. 2014 was a defeat. We are out of the EU. We are deploying mass economic suicide as we write.

      without a shadow of a doubt – we, collectively, are too wee, too poor and definitely too stupid.

      If the cap fits

    33. Bob Mack says:


      Unlike gamblers who hope for the best,Stu does analysis on facts.

      Ps, Keep your money in your pocket.

    34. robertknight says:


      Considering the repeated misses in front of the open goal that is Brexit, the SNP leadership isn’t just “bad”, they’re absolutely f***ing abysmal!

      Surely you cannot expect a chorus of “SNP good” given the performance of NS, Blackford, Wishart etc. etc. Their collective mediocrity and wrong-headed approach to Indy is no accident, so just WTF is going on exactly?

      Answers on a postcard to…

    35. Josef Ó Luain says:

      Given the scenes of utter fuck-wittery on Bournemouth Beach, no one should be surprised now as to why Johnson got to where he is.

    36. Willie says:

      Good to see sensible concise comments.

      We got the lot we didn’t want, austerity, the hostile environment, out of the EU, Boris as PM and now a becalmed SNP who have put independence on the back burner.

      And in terms of the hostile environment we can’t even do a thing about the atrocious lock down camps set up across Scotland. What happened last Friday was tragic, it was predictable, people and fragile people at that break, and this was a tragedy for all those involved.

      On current form, if the Third Reich decided to create concentration camps across Scotland, operated by private companies, and managed by black shirted Border Agency Officers, does anyone think that Mr Justice Minister Humza would utter a cheep.

      Of course not.

      But you know what? Things will change. The current devoted devolutionist approach will change, and it is starting to change.

    37. Vinny says:


      I will agree with you on your opinion of the Scottish Parliament,,,it is a joke.

      Full if grandstanding morons who love the sound of their own voices.

      Sturgeon, Carlow, Harvey, Rennie and Leonard.

      Surnames are approximates because I don’t give a fuck about any of them.

      Holyrood should be converted into a foodbank for the people of Edinburgh,,,at least by doing that it would serve some kind of useful purpose.

    38. dakk says:

      @Bob Mack

      ‘Thank fuck we are not independent just now’ @ 10.51 am.

      ‘the evidence so far proves the theory that we are too wee, too poor, too stupid.’ 11.58 am

      Too wee too poor too stupid or what?

      Not that I’m not raging at SNP myself re the constitution.

      It’s the too wee, too poor, too stupid that is so played out old fashioned unionism.

      No opportunity missed, even when Stuart’s archived post was unrelated.

      I thought the comments were not supposed to go OT immediately.

      I’ll keep reading anyway,it usually sorts itself out 🙂

    39. Bob Mack says:


      That comment was Joe. I think you know his history. I am talking about Indy supporters.

    40. Gary45% says:

      So the Scottish Parliament is a joke!!
      What does that make Westminster??

    41. Famous15 says:

      Gaslighters out in strength .

      Scotland does not deserve such insulting and ridiculous “ Visionaries “

    42. susan says:

      I think Nicola Sturgeon is busy trying to hoover up woke brownie points. Look at Scotland, SO progressive! Scotland is NOT progressive, Scotland is, overall, a small “c” conservative country. I’m sorry (not) but Jimmy Reid never appealed to me, Central Beltism no better than metrocentrism.

    43. Alec Lomax says:

      Vinny thinks that the Scots are incapable of governing themselves.

    44. Alec Lomax says:

      Susan: it’s the way you tell ’em!

    45. hazelwoods says:

      I was mocked in 2016 for my suggestion than we might have Trump, Johnson and Brexit to deal with. Most people said we’d not even have one of those, let alone all 3.

      It must have been May/June as it was before the referendum. I wasn’t suggesting it as a worst case scenario. Something in my head said it was highly possible/probable. The way the media were presenting the three was pushing that type of outcome. And I blame BBC in particular for giving Farage the opportunity to spread his filth.

    46. dakk says:

      @ Bob Mack said

      ‘That comment was Joe.’

      Yes,didn’t mean to give impression it was yourself, apologies.

      Probably because it was so early in the thread for an off topic tired old unionist trope, I was triggered.

      I shouldn’t have taken the bait.

      As for keeping the pressure on SNP re indy,that must indeed be stepped up.

    47. dakk says:

      Famous15 says:
      29 June, 2020 at 12:47 pm
      Gaslighters out in strength.

      Not half.

      Stomach gas by the smell of it.

    48. jockmcx says:

      Why do people who sing about never ever ever shall be slaves,
      want the word tory stamped on thier forehead just as thier coralled into thier pen?

    49. jockmcx says:

      ‘The sovereign individual’ by jacob crackers daddy and
      j d davidson.

      Predictions among others’
      .break up of uk
      .deadly epidemic…(seal borders,discourage travel,keep hold
      of our tax slaves dont u know)
      I think from memory 2024 was thier big date!

    50. Stuart MacKay says:

      Follow-up from yesterday over that navigation satellite stuff. From The Guardian,

      The title of the article should give you a clue: ‘We’ve bought the wrong satellites’: UK tech gamble baffles experts

    51. Effijy says:

      On a radio news report a representative of the asylum seekers of Scotland
      Has just laid claim that guests of the Scottish Government living in hotels
      Are afraid to breathe in their rooms due to the virus?

      I don’t know what they want and feel aggrieved after all that we do for them.

      Do they want us to send them back to their homeland, provide them with oxygen
      Tanks in the Hotels, or send them to a detention centre where they might perceive
      The air quality would somehow be better.

      Cumming up with absurd stories like this just throws fuel on the National Front’s Fire.

    52. Breeks says:

      Heads up for the latest IndyLiveStream crowdfunding.

      Remember, it’s only some of “Scotland’s” media which gets allocated millions from the Scottish Government….

      I know who’d be getting the money if I was in charge…

    53. Beaker says:

      Just when you thought the world could not get crazier…

      Iran has requested an arrest warrant for Donald Trump from Interpol.

      Next up: Alistair Campbell replaces Dominic Cummings…

    54. Dr Jim says:

      Once you’ve worked out that Labour and Tory are not two different parties but one and the same thing then it’s not too difficult to understand the future

    55. susan says:

      Alex Lomax I’m not sure what you meant by that comment.

    56. mike cassidy says:

      Now that the transphobia debate is kicking off within the SNP.

      So God created man in his own image, in the image of God created he him; male and female created he them.

      It would have been quite impossible to render this into Newspeak while keeping the sense of the original.

      The nearest one could come to doing so would be to swallow the whole passage up into the single word transphobia

    57. robbo says:

      In the name o the wee men!

      Rockets don’t even ken the words.

    58. Polly says:

      Thanks, Stuart MacKay, I came across that link yesterday and maybe should have tried then to post here myself. But I only came across that article and others, after reading up on things you mentioned. Hadn’t known much about it before and thank you for first alerting me to that company.

      As other people mentioned it is another example, like the ferry company that didn’t have any to the company making a tracing app that couldn’t, which shows the worst examples of incompetence I’ve seen in my lifetime.

    59. Vinny says:

      Alex Lonax 12.59

      Can you tell me where I wrote that Scotland couldn’t govern her self???

      I said Holyrood is a joke.

      What the fuck has that got to do with an independent Scotland running her own affairs???

      Holyrood is given an allocated amount from our real government (London) and told to do her best

      It is a glorified council chamber.

      Not an independent seat of government.

      And it has no Party at this moment in time fighting to become an independent nation.

      So I stand by what I said.

      Holyrood is a joke,,,and it is full of jojers

    60. Effijy says:

      ITV News don’t seem to take any stories to a clarified conclusion?

      First Boris is going to spend £1 Billion on New English School buildings
      Across the country.

      Then they say it’s for 50 schools only?

      Next they say Boris is adding £560 million for repairs to all the other schools.

      The School’s essential repairs only estimate for England is £6.7 Billion.

      So cheery bungling buffoon seeks plaudits for funding one twelfth of essential budget?

      Can the English actually understand English and basic Arithmetic?

    61. Robert graham says:

      Boris the head Clown is on in the background I guess getting over excited about saying his government are going to spend zillions of our money on Schools , aye ok Borris what about the new world beating hospitals , and the garden bridge or the bridge to Northern Ireland or the world beating track and trace app and not forgetting the easiest EU trade deal in history ? .

      And this fkn Chancer and the rest of the the Circus are running the country god help us all.

      Anyone ever actually met anyone who admitted to voting NO in 2014 ? .

      So many promises

      So little actually delivered , the public taken for total mugs when will folk learn ? fkd if I know .

    62. dakk says:

      ‘Labour and Tory are not two different parties but one and the same thing’

      Very true Dr Jim.

      Any microscopic ephemeral pretence of a nuance whilst Corbyn accidentally flew around the lightbulb for a few seconds has been effortlessly swatted.

      Sir Keir has immediately caught up in the polls and is standing by for when England gets bored with the blue Torys again.

      England certainly knows and loves a Tory when it sees one.

      Mind you, so does almost half of Scotland.

    63. Andy Ellis says:

      @Mike Cassidy 2.08pm

      Interesting isn’t it that the men’s rights activists pushing the trans agenda within the SNP have a pretty “hands off” approach to commenting on J K Rowling isn’t it?

      Perhaps JK’s very public take down of clueless Labour MP Lloyd Russell-Moyle may be giving them pause for thought. It’s a shame more public figures don’t have the courage to stand with brave individuals like Rowling, Linehan, Forstater, Blindel et al.

      Perhaps the tide is starting to turn…..?

    64. Capella says:

      Your 2014 poll illustrates how far down the popularity stakes the Labour Party in Scotland has sunk since then. It’s inconceivable that the prospect of a Labour FM would get anything like such a high score now.

      Apart from Richard Leonard’s abysmal performance, we have Sir Keir Starmer in London dumping the left and refusing to say he supports women’s safe spaces. Nick Robinson tried him a few times this morning but he slyly avoided answering. This requires grown up discussion apparently. However, he is certain that trans rights must be protected.

      We can confidently expect the Tories to continue to weaponise this as promised.

    65. Rm says:

      I’ve an SNP poster on my window as it’s been the only party you can vote for to end the union between four independent countries, it’s looking like there has to be another Independence Party or an end to the union will never come, why did the SNP not put up more fight and demand that Scotland stay in Europe or demand independence and try and join efta, I’ll keep the SNP poster up because you still hope there’s something underlying about to happen, I’ll wait a bit longer if nothing happens shortly I’ll be changing the SNP poster to hopefully an independent with a bit o pith, or maybe a Wings Over Scotland people’s party there are some great speakers on here, Breeks, Cameron Brodie, Robert Louis, Colin Alexander, Dr Jim, Republic of Scotland, Effijy, Capella, etc, etc, etc, etc they could form a great party.

    66. callmedave says:

      Swipe me with a Finnan haddie! ‘As my old journeyman used to say’

      First time in a long time that big Auntie BBC live news announce verbally the daily death rate in English hospitals and a total for that measure.

      Meanwhile the colonials three countries have posted the figures on the respective BBC websites.

      N. Ireland………today…..01…….Total…….551…BBC
      UK…………… data…..Total… data.

      WM will release an official UK total later once they decide what the figure should be.

      Scotland’s fourth day in a row against the corona virus is minor news darn Sarf. 🙂

    67. CameronB Brodie says:

      Jason Smoothpiece
      “Ordinary folk in England voting Tory they are not like us are they?

      However they are entitled to vote whatever way they want, for the Tories, for Brexit. It is their absolute right.

      We are also entitled to vote they way we want, for example for independence…………….oh wait my mistake we are Scottish we don’t get to do that democracy stuff silly me.”

      Indeed, silly man. 😉

      Full text.

      Problematising the
      Political Theory of Identity Politics:
      Towards an Agonistic Freedom

      Despite the successes of identity politics as the main thorn in the side of liberalism, this article suggests they share the same political morality in which the subject grounds politics. This kinship results from a common view of freedom, namely, as something exercised by the subject either a priori or a posteriori to social interaction.

      With John Rawls, for instance, it is presumed that power relations are distinct from the subject, whence a self-mediated freedom that aims at autonomy, while for Charles Taylor power relations can be resolved in favour of consensus and kept at bay from the community, which enables freedom through recognition. Similarly, even when these opposing notions of freedom are reconciled in textual autonomy, an ontology in which power is the antithesis of freedom persists.

      The article then highlights the aporia of these approaches: instead of discerning the constitutive relation between power and the subject’s freedom, accounts of autonomy, recognition and textual autonomy focus on the foundational relation between the subject’s identity and politics.

      Subsequent to arguing that politics concerns the self-constitution of identity precisely because of the way in which freedom is the effect of power, a Foucauldian exit of agonistic freedom is proposed. Because it is the consequence of power, it implies a subject of contingent becoming, which in turn requires a permanent critique in respect of the supposedly necessary truths of one’s being that are encapsulated in identity.

      Identity politics, political morality, autonomy, recognition


    68. CameronB Brodie says:

      I was going to thank you for your consideration, but decline any interest on health grounds.

    69. mike cassidy says:

      Good thread for those who were mentioning the OneWeb fiasco.

      And this will make your eyes pop out.

      An interview from LAST month with the founder of OneWeb with the built-in assumption OneWeb was a goner.

      I ask Wyler if we can classify OneWeb as a failure. He says using such a term would be “too harsh.” He adds, “But, for a global disaster, it would still be around. It has been in trouble. These type of companies live on the edge of trouble. What startup can spend $100 million a month and not be on the edge? If you are doing something difficult, going into unchartered waters, you are typically in a high-risk environment.”

    70. Lorna Campbell says:

      Yes you were right, Stuart Campbell. The Conservatives/Tories often lead the way on radical changes, whether these are good or bad for everyone else, usually bad. Thatcher. Johnson. Not only was he in line for Leader of the Tories, but it has always been obvious to everyone but the most wilfully blind that he is no buffoon. He is a dangerous right-wing populist who plays the fool, and who loathes us. Be warned. He actually loathes us. Most of them do. They always have, because we will not lie down quietly and pull our thorny selves out of their side and allow them to do as they please.

    71. mike cassidy says:

      Andy Ellis 2.34

      The Mhairi Black tweet seems to me a declaration of war against those in the SNP opposing the extreme transactivism.

      And it would not surprise me if Joanna Cherry is the immediate target.

    72. Papko says:

      “They always have, because we will not lie down quietly and pull our thorny selves out of their side and allow them to do as they please”

      Did you not just do a lock-down?

    73. Papko says:

      it’s looking like there has to be another Independence Party or an end to the union will never come, why did the SNP not put up more fight and demand that Scotland stay in Europe or demand independence and try and join efta”

      Success corrupts, too long at the trough saps the appetite for change.

    74. callmedave says:

      Well that was quick today:

      N. Ireland………today…..01…….Total…….551…BBC

      FM’s inquisition at the daily update today was the usual ‘what if Scotland did…’ or ‘England has done this so…’

      It was made clear that no consultation occurred between WM-Gov and the three devolved administrations on the ‘air corridors’

      However ‘talks’, of some sort, will take place in the next two days and Scotland has a public health remit within the powers of Scot’s-Gov in Holyrood to decide what to do with regard to maintaining the progress to minimise the virus.

      Now if the Welsh and Scots decide to say no and instigate some ‘health checks’ there would be reasons to be cheerful in spite of the some downsides. We will see! 🙁


      Hearts have a new ‘old’ goalie.

    75. dakk says:

      Capella said
      ‘We can confidently expect the Tories to continue to weaponise this as promised.’

      Not if they don’t mind a short period in the wings whilst they leave their trusty red tory substitutes to paper over their brexit/pandemic catastrophes.

      The first pick Torys will have achieved what they wanted.

      No great purpose in being in hanging around whilst the greatest depression in UK history is in place.

    76. Andy Ellis says:

      @Mike Cassidy 2.34

      Oh, she absolutely is; quite open in many of the comments. It’s actually quite entertaining watching all the TRA zoomers complaining about the SNP leadership not taking a lead and not investigating their complaints. I don’t think they do irony?

      I note that @WomensPledge have called out the mendacious account from the original complainant. Be interesting to see if SNP hierarchy and disciplinary folks actually have to investigate this, or whether they will just bury it an hope it goes away just like they’ve ignored all the abuse suffered by Joanna Cherry and Joan McAlpine?

    77. Capella says:

      @ Andy Ellis @ mike cassidy – I see Mhairi Black supplies zero evidence for her “transphobia in the SNP” accusations.

      However, the Conduct Committee is staffed by trans allies. That’s the group that evicted Denise Findlay and Neil Hanvey. National secretary Angus MacLeod appears to be a fellow traveller. Certainly neither he nor anyone else responded to my complaints about GRA reform, erasing the category “sex” from the 2021 Census and allowing men to sit on public boards as women.

      Perhaps I will be evicted from the Party ?

      BTW I thought Ian Blackford’s reply to Ms Black was superb.

    78. Andy Ellis says:

      @Capella 3.59pm

      I wouldn’t trust Blackford and most other MPs, MSPs, office holders and activists as far as I could throw them. Unless they’ve specifically come out in defence of Joanna Cherry and Joan McAlpine against the sustained abuse they’ve suffered over many, months, they are tacitly supporting the rank misogyny of the trans extremists.

      Most of them are moral cowards content to keep their heads down and hope it all goes away. Blackford et all are refusing to be overt about it and effectively advocate everyone having a group hug and forgetting about it.

      It’s beyond me how those remaining inside the SNP can stomach campaigning shoulder to shoulder with some of these roasters.

    79. Capella says:

      Here’s the women’s Pledge response to the accusations circulated by Mhairi Black.

      @ Andy Ellis – Re Ian Blackford’s response. It is very much in line with the Women’s Pledge response. What is wrong with calling for mutual respect, tolerance and open debate?

    80. Allium says:

      Blackford should have checked the veracity of the complainant before getting stuck in with his pompous lecture. I note he hasn’t addressed the misogyny that the SNP is currently riddled with, either.

      Still, it can’t be fun for him, having won the plum SNP post at Westminster, with endless opportunities for self-promotion and exposure – yet all the while Joanna Cherry enjoys 50 times his popularity – and even UK wide recognition and respect thanks to her superior abilities.

    81. Lochside says:

      Effigy at 1.56…’I don’t know what they want and feel aggrieved after all that we do for them’

      Maybe they want to be put back in their flats they were evicted from by the ‘Home Office’ proxies Mears to be crammed into substandard ‘hotels’, with shared facilities, in breach of ‘Covid 19’ guidelines with strangers. Fed on crud and given little more than a fiver a day subsistence. A literal stone throw from where for three days they could hear, see and smell the fetid fascist crew of loyalist knuckledraggers assembled and threatening anyone..but particularly ‘immigrants’?

      Maybe they would like the Scottish Government the rights to protect them and offer them employment denied them by Westminster?

      Maybe, they wouldn’t be so threatened if so-called supporters of a fair and free thinking Scotland didn’t have so many ’77’ trolls and fellow travellers like you with views not unadjacent to the ‘National ‘Front’ pumping out uninformed inhumane opinions on this site?

      You and Corporal ‘Joe’, ‘DogTurd’ and others are stinking up this site with your deliberate diversionary alt-right wing shite. Why don’t you try a bit harder at pretending to care about a ‘Better’ Scotland?

    82. Bob Mack says:

      Those poor asylum seekers must find it hard to cope with thinking they are living in Scotland which has its own government, but are totally at the mercy of decisions made in the Home Office in Westminster.

      Totally ludicrous.

    83. CameronB Brodie says:

      Those supporting the proposed GRA reform, wish to remove fundamental rights from biological women, in order to give a particular sexuality more rights. There is absolutely no legal justification for these proposals, which conflate “sex” with “gender”, and insist on the public acceptance of an anti-foundational epistemology (theory of knowledge).

      In order for law to be universal and impartial, it needs to be grounded in a foundational epistemology, such as Natural Law, which is coherent and compatible with our scientific understanding of the human condition. However, in order for law to be bio-neurologically sensitive to the lived experience of individuals, law is best if it is grounded in a post-foundational epistemology that is coherent and compatible with Natural Law.

      Sexual Orientation,
      Gender Identity and
      Justice: A Comparative
      Law Casebook

    84. CameronB Brodie says:

      P.S. International law already provides the same legal protect to trans-women, as it does to biological women. So there is no need for further inclusion of men into the legal domain of womanhood. However, Westminster considers itself above international law, so there is still a mahoosive problem of legal injustice at large (see Brexit).

    85. callmedave says:


      A whole 4 mins of what FM Sturgeon said (a watered down BBC version)on big Auntie news but no FM to be seen saying it again.

      Probably because she was not singing from the correct hymn sheet.

      She called out the WM-Gov on three things during her update session which had the extra bonus of no corona deaths for the 4th day in a row.

      Public Health in Scotland is within the remit of Holyrood and hinting she would use it to stop incomers from possibly spreading it if need be.

      Treatment of Asylum seekers in Scotland is also a function of the WM-Gov and it must change it’s policy and adopt a more humane approach.

      Along with Katie Forbes she called out the WM-Gov for it’s lack of response to tweak the rules to allow Scotland more leeway to borrow and use the money to tackle the post-corona virus economy the way that is best suited to Scotland.

      Aye! Best not to show that to the BBC public darn Sarf!

    86. Beaker says:

      @mike cassidy says:
      29 June, 2020 at 3:20 pm
      Andy Ellis 2.34
      “The Mhairi Black tweet seems to me a declaration of war against those in the SNP opposing the extreme transactivism.

      And it would not surprise me if Joanna Cherry is the immediate target.”

      I thought she was ordered off Twitter after the primary school visit, when she decided to insult her own constituents when criticised. 800+ replies including Blackford. Don’t know if he’s trying to save his skin.

      Nice Twitter storm that is going to get fucking worse. Open warfare anyone?

    87. callmedave says:

      At last old Auntie BBC admits on Live News that the worst corona virus deaths in the world is in

      The UK.

      Among the four counties of the UK the worst is


      Lovely bar chart graphs and all. 🙂

      WM spokesperson tried to deflect by saying there is more than two ways to calculate the figures…

      Hope somebody with the skills can capture that one minute off film.

    88. boris says:

      One of the links between Goldsmith’s Referendum Party and the Tory government of Boris Johnson – Ultra right-wing political schemer – Dougie Walters

      Scottish born Walters first surfaced in Scottish politics when he was appointed Chief of Staff for the Tory branch Office leader Michael Forsyth. His tenure did not last long as he was deposed by the St Andrews University mafia who brought about the near-death of the Tory’s in Scotland. Smith licked his wounds and moved to London where he quickly established himself as a key member of the Tory elite.

      He became vice-chairman of the frequently controversial Federation of Conservative Students and was an adviser and speechwriter for several senior right-wing political figures and a number of leading Conservative MPs.

      In the period before the 1997 General Election, he left the Tory Party and signed up to the Referendum Party as its senior political adviser to Sir James Goldsmith.

      Smith was employed by Johnson when he was Mayor of London. And he was the principal speechwriter to David Cameron as leader of the Conservative Party. He also previously ran “C-Change” a Tory think tank set up by Francis Maude and heads of the political section of the secretive “Conservative Intelligence” unit.

      He was recently appointed to the post of senior political adviser reporting directly to Dominic Cummings. His employment again brought into disrepute the pervading nepotism associated with Political Advisers who hold positions of power in government. They hold down highly paid non-jobs which should be given over to civil servants. Their introduction to politics is the single most damaging abuse of the electoral system.

      But the scandal does not end there. He is a self-confessed hedonist and high stakes gambler who regularly frequents Aspinalls exclusive private members club in London and basks in another dubious claim to fame in his role as a sex party organizer for the rich and famous.

    89. Sinky says:

      Again BBC say UK has worst rate of Covid deaths in Europe when they mean England

    90. Effijy says:


      Are you for real?

      The Park Hotel were the incident happened is a Radisson Hotel that includes
      A Laundry Service, TV, Radio and WiFi, it has a Fitness suit and complimentary
      Teas and Coffees.

      It scored 4 out of 5 from 1,324 reviews

      The complaint their own representative made was they were scared to breathe
      The air in a 4 star hotel?

      I am for supporting these people but are you telling me they have different air and facilities in
      Some run down flat in the suburbs?

      You are correct in what you say about Westminster controlling immigration so why isn’t their representative tackling them and not the Scottish Government.

      How dare you say I’m a troll.

      I campaign virtually every day for independence, God knows why but I’m still an SNP member,
      I’ve knocked on doors for them and delivered leaflets and I’ve probably spent more than a £1,000
      supporting Wings, SNP Candidates, Alex Salmond and Craig Murray and just about everyone who
      Has fund raisers that I see here.

      I’m hearing SNP Bad from this Rep on the Radio and spurious claims about Scotland isn’t doing
      Enough for them. I’m not happy with it and I accuse them of not understanding what they gift right
      Wing extremists and Boris.

      Can’t you hear them say why are our pensioners not living in 4 star hotels?
      Why can’t we get free internet,

      I’m on their side to give them a chance but we need them to help Scotland.

    91. Vinny says:

      Mike Cassidy 3.20pm

      That post by Mhairi Black proves that the SNP have turned into a fuckin freak show.

      I just can’t believe what they have morphed into.

      And you STILL get the usual screwball Nicola Sturgeon Ra Ra Club members on her who will stand by her,,,,no matter what.

      They can’t have it both ways,,, it’s either or.

      Either Sturgeon goes, Or , there is no Scottish Independence.

    92. Andy Ellis says:

      @Capella 4.22pm

      He should have been giving Black a piece of his mind, not pandering to her sophomoric woke idiocy. Teddy’s account of the incident has already been denied by those present. Both accounts can’t be true. Blackford’s sensible course would have been to call for a thorough (preferably independent) review of the incident. Any wrong doing could then have been addressed.

      He is (as is sadly usual with the SNP leadership) trying to be all things to all men on this issue: it just won’t wash anymore. Sturgeon and her leadership team could and should have stopped the abuse directed at Joanna Cherry and Joan McAlpine with a couple of tweets. The fact they haven’t speaks volumes. A small cadre of misogynistic entryists appear to have carte blanche from the leadership to behave as they please. It’s quite obvious the ordinary members are powerless (or just unconcerned) about the direction the party is going.

      Time for all of those who oppose these extremists to walk the walk.

    93. dakk says:

      Cameron B @ 5.09

      ‘Law is best if it is grounded in a post-foundational epistemology’

      Have there been any more recent studies into how Norway, Ireland, Argentina and Malta have been getting on with their adoption of gender self id laws?

      That study is quite old by the looks of the dates of the contributions, all pre 2010 and 20th century from what I could see.

      It would be useful for neutral people to have a more recent overview of how gender self id is working in those countries who have put it into law and practice.

    94. dakk says:

      Properly peer reviewed studies that is, not from either extreme side of what appears to be a very bitter and entrenched battleground.

    95. CameronB Brodie says:

      What competence do you have to judge me as non-neutral? What’s your understanding of the law?

    96. CameronB Brodie says:

      I just understand stuff like justice and the rule-of-law. Sex is biological, where as as gender-identity is psychosocial. These proposals aren’t even competent in the language use in their drafting, ffs.

      A Psychosocial Genealogy of LGBTQ+ Gender: An Empirically Based Theory of Gender and Gender Identity Cultures

      In this invited article, I present an inclusive theory of gender that clarifies its interconnections with gender identity, gender expression, and sexuality. To support this functionalist theory, I summarize findings from an extensive body of mixed methods research on lesbian, gay, bisexual, transgender, queer, and other (LGBTQ+) genders in the United States.

      I use a feminist-intersectional lens to empirically base and historically situate a theory of gender that is grounded in research of LGBTQ+ communities (butch, femme, bear, leathermen, transgender, drag queens, and family/house systems). I define genders as either sets of personal qualities within a culture associated with physiological sex or sets of qualities that evolve in reaction to limitations of existing genders.

      The evolution of genders functions to meet needs in four domains: (1) psychological: an experience of fit between a core aspect of self and a gender construct; (2) cultural: the creation of an LGBTQ+ culture that asserts sets of gender characteristics, which were denied and stigmatized within preexisting cultural norms; (3) interpersonal: the communicating of affiliation and status to enhance safety; and (4) sexual: an erotic embodiment of signifiers of these needs via an aesthetic that structures sexual attraction.

      I detail how each function affects identity, security, belonging, and personal and social values. Online slides for instructors who want to use this article for teaching are available on PWQ’s website at

      gender identity, sexuality, LGBTQ+, gender, SOGI

    97. CameronB Brodie says:

      Sorry for bold throughout, I wasn’t meaning to shout.

    98. dakk says:

      Cam b
      What competence do you have to judge me as non-neutral? What’s your understanding of the law?

      Wasn’t suggesting you were not neutral,though as Stuart once said’we’re all biased’.

      Was meaning people like myself and probably most folk on here or elsewhere who haven’t got much of a handle on the issue yet.

      I have no understanding of gender self id laws at all.

      That’s why I was asking if you knew of any research/papers about the experience of the countries which have been applying gender self id laws for several years.

    99. Dan says:

      Andy Ellis says: at 6:21 pm

      He is (as is sadly usual with the SNP leadership) trying to be all things to all men on this issue: it just won’t wash anymore. Sturgeon and her leadership team could and should have stopped the abuse directed at Joanna Cherry and Joan McAlpine with a couple of tweets. The fact they haven’t speaks volumes. A small cadre of misogynistic entryists appear to have carte blanche from the leadership to behave as they please. It’s quite obvious the ordinary members are powerless (or just unconcerned) about the direction the party is going.

      Did anything ever come of this from Mr J Nicolson?
      Expand out the replies but obviously can’t see Rev’s responses due to those of a certain view getting twitter to suspend Stu’s account. Not ideal when Mr Nicolson asserts that “debate is healthy”…

      Not entirely sure what this tweet is conveying in the now disjointed and incomplete context of the conversation, but it seems relevant that JN is saying the entire cabinet and FM hold the same view.

      The thing that irks me in all this is that the SNP’s electoral successes over the recent yeas have all surely been accrued on the main issues of Independence and EU membership, and I presume from my activist experiences that a huge majority of the voters that elected all these SNP politicians are barely aware of this Self ID stuff.

      I’ve seen absolutely nothing in either the dozens of electoral leaflets I’ve delivered, or membership emails I have received informing the membership about the GRA stuff.
      Would have thought such an important subject would need a mandate from the people before it was implemented and not sneaked through off the back of votes that were given for other reasons.
      Seeing as Scottish Governemnt Administration can now hold referenda, if they are so confident in what they are doing then why not put it to the people and actually see what the electorate think, thus separating it from the Indy and EU situations.

    100. CameronB Brodie says:

      No problems. I can’t point you to the experience of other countries, as this is a new legal trend and the results can’t be ascertained yet. All I’m going on is a legal training guided by the Royal Town Planning Institute. So I’m trained to follow a bio-neurologically sensitive approach to the law, that is capable of taking account of lived experience. I’m also trained in international human rights law, though I’m very rusty. 😉

      By Reason of Their Sex: Feminist Theory
      Postmodernism and Justice

    101. dakk says:

      @Cam b

      Thanks for link.

      Will check it out later.

      I was particularly interested in how the countries who have adopted self id are getting on with their law and practice.

      There obviously two sides to this issue, but I only ever hear an entirely hostile viewpoint to gender self id on Wings.

      Just trying to get a bit of what the other side of the argument is, that’s all.

    102. Sinky says:

      Channel Four news has glowing interview praising Scots Gov on Covid handling.

      Watch on catch up or on 4+1 channel at 8 pm

    103. dakk says:

      Cheers Cam, that’ll keep me going.

      To be honest,it’s such a touchy subject I think only the people with strong views are up for talking about it.

      That’s why it’s such a polarised febrile battleground.

    104. CameronB Brodie says:

      I got where your coming from, and I’m sorry if I was a bit rude recently.

      It wouldn’t be safe to make direct comparisons with other nations, as they have full control over their legal systems, where as we only pretend we do. These proposals may be well intended, but they will wreck the potential for social justice in Scotland. Remember, Scots law hasn’t gotten around to codifying legal protection for the economic, social, and cultural rights of individuals, and British human rights do not offer the same legal protection as international human rights (see Brexit). 😉

      A Semiotics of Legal Argument

    105. Vinny says:

      Can B

      You seem to have been promoted to the dizzy heights of the Wings “Go to Guy”.

      Congratulations on the promotion.

      Hope your health issues don’t interfere with the increased workload.

      Geniuses are few and far between on Wings, so we don’t want to lose ours to brain overload.

      Remember and have some chill time,,, recharge the batteries and all that.

      Go Cam.

    106. Robert graham says:

      BBC in overdrive attempting to sanitize Bawjaws scabby Tory government,

      Quote from one of their presenters on the handling of pandemic broken down into each of the constituent parts of the UK , they don’t seem to get the UK is two kingdoms Scotland and England however that wasn’t the point ,

      According to them in their opinion the handling of the pandemic in Scotland was and is slightly better than England , well by f/k people asking for our border with England to be closed Tonight doesn’t sound like they believe our next door neighbour is slightly worse ,The whole idea of closing a land border is not slightly panicky,

      Closing a border means they are fkn Toxic disease ridden and carrying the Plague to put it mildly

    107. CameronB Brodie says:

      Thanks but I’m honestly nothing special, I just have a particularly powerful skill-set. Which is nice. 😉

      Mind in Life: Biology, Phenomenology, and the Sciences of Mind
      Reviewed by Charles Siewert, University of California, Riverside

    108. Capella says:

      @ Andy Ellis – I have no idea what Ian Blackford has called for. What I’m talking about is his quote in The National advocating mutual respect, tolerance and open debate which is absolutely perfect for an issue where “No debate” is the mantra.

      If you’re hoping for an SNP civil war to be spewed all over the MSM I think you’ll be disappointed. The SNP leadership are so circumspect that Mhairi Black’s tweets are the outliers.

      Most members never read twitter and have no idea what is going on. Ordinary members in my Branch were baffled by the trans issue and certainly not supportive of men declaring themselves to be women.

      What has probably happened is that a resolution went to conference with an anodyne aspiration to promote equality and tolerance for the LGBTQ+ community and most members will have voted for that. Who would vote against?

      TRAs have stated that they work “under the radar” and avoid public debate. They know that if their ideology was ever brought into the open they would lose the argument. Their tactics are smear, false accusations and threat.

      They have been remarkably successful in many political parties, countries and organisations throughout the world.

    109. Polly says:

      Thanks mike cassidy for the link to the interview. His comment ‘dead on arrival’ was also interesting. He seems a personable and persuasive character and no doubt will go on to other things, even if UK government doesn’t get involved. His shrugged shoulders and ‘win some lose some’ attitude though leaves a bitter taste.

    110. Joe says:

      Sorry but this can only be said crudely – anyone who equates criticism of the politicians in Scotland and the utter shite they speak with being against indy is a total fucking vegetable.

      Dakk, that would be you.

    111. Polly says:

      Seeing people talk about today’s strife I don’t know about anyone else but the Teddy thing has left me more optimistic than I’ve been for a while. Whether dealt with more privately than at the moment seems likely, or whether played out in public makes little difference now. It seems the boil is about to be lanced or explode of its own accord.

      As Capella says trans activist, though very noisy, normally work under the radar. They’re annoyed with Nicola Sturgeon and her caution just as we are and are using this to get her to go their way at a quicker speed. I don’t believe she’ll like that one bit. Either way perhaps eventually she has to make a move, after all she’s been sitting on the fence too long, so something has to change and perhaps this will be it.

    112. Joe says:

      Honestly, watching that spectacle on racism in Holyrood pretty much shook me. How can anyone with the IQ over that of a lentil even try to justify what Holyrood has become? Of course its more about self respect – if you are happy, or even content to stay silent, with THAT mob of utter pish legislating for us then you need to re-evaluate your sense of self worth. What a dangerous fucking farce.

    113. Under Humza`s new hate law clusterf@ck,

      what Teddy `felt` will be more important to what actually happened,

      Teddy will be able to `feel` threatened whenever he wants and get some poor unfortunate charged,

      if he doesn`t get sauce on his chips it`s because the chippy is transphobic,

      if he doesn`t get first in the queue it`s because everyone there before him are transphobic,

      if he gets stopped for speeding it`s because the polis are tranphobic

      he `feels` it.

    114. CameronB Brodie says:

      Perhaps this might prompt some ethical leadership?

      Full text.

      The Oxford Handbook of Comparative Constitutional Law
      Bioethics and Basic Rights: Persons, Humans, and Boundaries of Life

      Abstract and Keywords
      This article explores the connections between bioethics and basic rights partly by analyzing the basic legal norms of bioethics, and partly by comparing thematic cases from the jurisdictions of the European Court of Human Rights and the US Supreme Court, as well as some cases from other jurisdictions.

      It focuses on two major lines of thought in contemporary bioethics: the first is concerned with the boundaries of life (e.g., issues of embryo research, assisted reproduction, and end of life decisions) and the second is related to the contemporary exploration of the frontiers of the human body (issues such as the use of human tissues and human DNA for research and other purposes).

      bioethics, basic rights, human rights, European Court of Human Rights, US Supreme Court, life, human body

    115. Joe says:

      @Scot finlayson

      You just criticised Hate Speech Humza. He isnt white. That means you criticised a BAME member of our community. Thats racist. How could you?

    116. CameronB Brodie says:

      Here’s one to help Humza’s legal re-edumication, as it’s kind of hard to apply the law equally if biological women are unable to effectively defend their legal identities. Just like Scotland under British constitutionalism.

      The Lived Experience of Hate Crime

    117. Andy Ellis says:

      @Capella 7.52pm

      Surely the point is that Blackford and the rest of the leadership should have been down on the extremists pushing the “there is no debate” line like a ton of bricks months ago? The convenor of my former branch in Edinburgh Central used to have it on his twitter header!

      I’m not hoping for anything. I now have zero faith that the SNP will tackle these extremists, still less discipline or expel them. It may be true that much of the general public knows little and cares less about the minutiae of this, but that could well change. However, many within the party are well aware of the issue and the debates around it. Many of them have complained and been fobbed off or ignored.

      I don’t accept that Black’s tweets are outliers: she represents an influential and entrenched group of zealots within the party. They represent a clear and present danger both to the party (which is their own concern as I’m no longer a member) but more importantly to the Yes movement and prospects for achieving independence.

    118. Capella says:

      @ Andy Ellis – I’m puzzled by your stance. Evidence is that the Labour Party, the Liberal Democrats and the Greens are all well to the woke of the SNP on this issue. Granted that, bar Wales, none of them have the power to enact woke laws.

      The GRA 2004 was enacted by the Labour Party in Westminster and adopted into Scottish law by the Labour party in Scotland. This is a Labour law.

      The reason was – the ECHR had decreed that trans people were denied the right of a family life. The Church of England refused to allow same sex marriage. So the House of Lords introduced a bill to allow trans people to get a birth certificate changing their sex. Since then , same sex marriage has been made legal. There is no need whatsoever for the GRA to remain on the statute book. There was no need for it in the first place. But Bishops sit in the House of Lords. Democracy?

      This has nothing to do with Scotland or the SNP except insofar as the SNP choose to support the trans agenda. Many people, weirdly, believe the unscientific drivel propagated by TRAs. Justin Trudeau, Canada – fully woke; Jacinda Ardern, New Zealand, fully woke; Leo Varadker, RoI, fully woke; Denmark, Norway, Australia, USA, Brazil etc etc etc.

      So Nicola Sturgeon may not be the worst case of woke ideology. But we have to oppose this voodoo nonsense by whatever means necessary. There is clearly an enormous amount of lobbying pressure exerted to get trans ideology on the statute book, without debate.

    119. liz says:

      This now out in the open, not just twitter.
      The National ran with Mhairi Bs diatribe first, probably Stephen Paton, who’s another woke bloke.

      The Sun has now picked it up, so it will spread further.

      They have always been under the radar with this but since JKRs statement, they’re not holding back.
      Most people will be horrified by these wee woke narcissists.
      You can’t give in to them because no matter how much you give, they will never be satisfied.

      The difference now is, is Murrell going to sit back whilst his wife’s name is trashed by her ‘own side’?

      It could have been dealt with subtly ages ago but NS supports GRA reform and wants to be seen as progressive.

      It was apparently debated at Conference, I was there, when some wee binary person gave her/his sob story and everyone voted for some vague motion about equality cos we felt sorry for them.

      I do remember at the time thinking, what? but never thought it would lead to where is is at now.

      I thought Fiona R was maybe a plant but Spears and others are just a bit thick

    120. Beaker says:

      @Capella says:
      29 June, 2020 at 7:52 pm
      “Most members never read twitter and have no idea what is going on. Ordinary members in my Branch were baffled by the trans issue and certainly not supportive of men declaring themselves to be women.”

      It’s not just the views of SNP members the leadership should be worried about – it’s Black. Is she trying to sabotage Indyref2?

    121. robbo says:

      Acht it maybe all over by 2025 not 2525

      Stopped caring to be honest.

    122. Polly says:

      CameronB Brodie Thank you for the link, I’ll have a read later. I thought at first you wrote ‘Perhaps this might prompt some ethical readership? 🙂

    123. Capella says:

      I think we have to accept that there are people, perfectly intelligent and well meaning people, who believe that men can turn into women.

      I don’t know how they have been hypnotised onto a condition of belief. But remember that Galileo was forced to recant his perfectly correct scientific observation that the earth orbits the sun. And not the other way about.

      But, show someone the torture instruments and they will repeat the mantra.

    124. CameronB Brodie says:

      Here one to help defend the rights of women in Scotland, and perhaps encourage the Scottish government to refer to the natural law reading of the British constitution. That way they might rediscover the significance of Treaty law. 😉

      Ethics, Medicine and Public Health – Ethique, Médecine et Politiques Publiques Volume 2, n° 2 pages 170-180 (avril 2016)
      Core values in bioethics: A natural law perspective

    125. MaggieC says:

      This is in the next step in the transgender debate , it’s an article from The Mirror from a surgeon saying that “ Transgender women should be allowed womb transplants so they can have their own babies ,

      All I can say to this is I would love to see how many men would cope with the pain of going childbirth . LOL .

    126. twathater says:

      @ Mike Cassidy 12.31pm on previous thread ,Mike thanks for that link to the National’s cover of Mhairi Black’s accusations against the SNP

      On the article just above the Blackford comment there is a link saying 464 people are talking about this , it takes you too MB’s twatter and the comments are a bin fire of rants against the SNP from wokeist supporters , if this is the way forward indy is f++kin dead due to these nutjobs

    127. mike cassidy says:

      Its hard to avoid the possibility that Mhairi Black and others are trying to do a transphobia equivalent of Labour’s antisemitism mess.

      Except in this case its not the leadership they are after.

      Its the women’s right campaigners.

      For whatever reason

      Confidence or desperation

      They have decided now is the time to ‘guide’ the leadership into purging the Joanna Cherries.

      This has the potential to be a real civil war within the SNP – not one concocted by the unionist media.

      And here, out of interest, is a description of that controversial meeting

      Which either bears no resemblance to the transphobic nature of the event as previously reported

      Or the offended party has fallen so far down the woke rabbit hole that they experience the entire world as one big ball of transphobia.

    128. dakk says:

      @Cam b 7.30

      Yes, indy first, then we can properly look after all our people,without exception.

      Joe included


    129. CameronB Brodie says:

      I’m not suggesting it will provide all the answers, but it points to the value of respecting biology and the human genome. I’m trying to piece together an outline of ethical jurisprudence, but I’m very, very rusty.

      The Ontological Foundations for Natural Law
      Theory and Contemporary Ethical Naturalism

    130. Andy Ellis says:

      @Capella 8.49pm

      I don’t understand your response. The SNP are losing support over this. They are endangering the movement, quite apart from the fact it’s just wrong. It’s not hard to grasp the point I’m making.

      The only ones who can make it stop are ordinary members mobilising and ensuring the party changes course. So far….nada.

      @ 9.08pm

      They’re not perfectly intelligent if they accept that men can turn in to women. It’s a faith based, a-scientific belief on a par with believing the world is flat or that homeopathy is effective. Perhaps Liz is correct and things are now starting to change. We can but hope.

    131. mike cassidy says:

      And if you want an example of how set the mind can be on this issue

      See how these horrible examples of trans predators are dismissed.

    132. CameronB Brodie says:

      We can’t afford to wait to deal with right-wing populism, as that is what is driving contemporary English politics. English Torydum, has had a post-colonial breakdown, and they are trying to take us with them as they deny their colonial history and penchant for cultural chauvinism.


    133. Ottomanboi says:

      Identitarianism whether of the left or right, whether homosexualist or transsexualist is a virus far more deadly to humanity than SARS-CoV-2.
      Everything it touches it ‘denatures’, language, social relationships, politics, culture, history, thought.
      In common with all anti-intellectual and anti free-thought systems its weapons are loud and crude and opaque.
      The subtleties of a clear and rational discourse it finds offensive.
      Effectively there is no arguing with it and why would you waste precious time doing so?
      Their gobbledegook, however, like sand, gets everywhere.

    134. CameronB Brodie says:

      We also need to defend Scots law from gender-ideology, or we are unlikely to get a chance to go for indy. Open democracy will not survive long in a legal environment that considers biological women to be the same but subordinate to men. Rather than equal but different, like Scotland and England.

      Bioethics in International Law:
      An Analysis of the Intertwining of Bioethical and Legal Discourses

    135. CameronB Brodie says:


      Is this acceptable or openly prejudiced and reactionary?

    136. Breeks says:

      Apologies. Not pleasant to watch, but the US inspired deregulation in food production will be an absolute scandal if it’s allowed to happen, considering what we have here and now in Europe, and what a US inspired trade deal will force us to accept.

      I read Waitrose making some pious statement that they’d never sell chlorinated chicken. It’s not the chlorination that’s the vile part, (You’ll actually want MORE chlorination, once you why chlorination is necessary).

      It’s the abysmal animal husbandry and grotesque food hygiene standards which makes chlorination necessary. It’s the process to kill all the bugs and pathogens on your meat so you can actually eat it. Chlorination is essentially a disinfectant. That’s why it’s used to sanitize swimming pools.

      Chlorination however will not remove the GM components, or the growth hormones and steroids that have been artificially introduced, nor, (if US standards are adopted), the rat hairs and rat faeces which are naturally introduced by vermin, but are tolerated in US food standards.

      Leaving Europe to cater for this deregulation is NOT ACCEPTABLE. EU standards are much higher and everybody benefits, except the greedy corporate food producers who have to compete with demanding standards and good practice.

      If only Scotland had a government with the backbone to defend Scotland’s Sovereign Constitution and our place in the European Union.

      When be beat COVID, we’ll all be exchanging face masks for sick bags.

    137. Capella says:

      @ Andy Ellis – the SNP are polling at 54%. They would sweep the board at Holyrood with these figures. No need for list votes either.

      OK that’s because the MSM haven’t weaponised the issue yet.

      And I agree that the belief that men can turn into women is completely irrational. But, I have to acknowledge that there are many women who believe this. Remember Stu’s poll question where a majority of young women believed it. But when asked if men should use their toilets, changing rooms etc, had second thoughts?

      They want to be kind. But they haven’t thought about the consequences.

    138. call me dave says:

      Coronavirus: For those who don’t access big Auntie BBC web sites.

      UK hardest hit by virus among leading G7 nations

    139. dakk says:

      Science now shows that humans can have external genetalia which do not correspond entirely to their chromosomes.

      The self id issue is that which is now being played out.

      Not good timing for Indy would be understatement of the century.

    140. Capella says:

      @ dakk – biology has always shown that some people do not have the external genitalia to match their chromosomes and gonads. But they are a tiny minority. They are not trans. they are intersex and do not want to be caught up in this culture war.

    141. call me dave says:

      Channel 4 News confirms success of Scottish Covid strategy and condemns Tory failures

      Jon Snow interview: Hope link works: 🙁

    142. call me dave says:

      Oh well. Only a snippet there not full 5mins. Might try again. 🙁

    143. CameronB Brodie says:

      That may be a scientific fat but it is not ethical to shape law to suite a minority, and human’s are characteristically female or male. Trans-women are already protected in the same manner as biological women, under international law anyway. The human genome is also protected under intentional law.

      The full effect of international law does not reach Scotland though, due to the culture of Parliamentary sovereignty and the assumed immutability of English legal doctrine.


    144. Capella says:

      If you really want to do something right away to combat climate change, virus pandemics and animal welfare – go vegan. Today.

      The next pandemic is revving up in China. it’s breeding in pigs but may soon migrate to humans.

      They found evidence of recent infection starting in people who worked in abattoirs and the swine industry in China.

      There is no escape from appalling animal welfare practices.

    145. Dan says:

      Is The Vedic Code Book still legal to own these days or is it the sort of literature that one will soon be locked up for owning?
      Seem to recall it had chapters on sexual anatomy and sizes, with animal names utilised for male and female organ dimensions and optimum compatibility.
      I like to think of it as a work of Science Friction…

    146. CameronB Brodie says:

      Are you not perhaps thinking of the Kama Sutra? Not that I’d know about these sort of things. 😉

      Natural Law and Everyday Law

    147. Robert graham says:

      Governments on both sides of the Atlantic are in deep shit ,

      what the people need is a distraction ,

      Thinking Thinking I Know we need a fkn endless War

      Eh the yanks have been obliterating people since the end of the last biggie the 2nd World War , they haven’t stopped it’s like a fkn drug and they are well and truly hooked.

      Who can we Bomb there must be some fkr we can flatten , what was it that Rumsfeld said We will Bomb any country that doesn’t stand with us back to the Stone Age , and he was the quiet one .

      And Bawjaws wants a deal with these nut cases , oh where is that beam Scotty , cos I want beamed up, Scotty where the fn beam don’t fk about this is serious .

    148. mike cassidy says:

      Time for a laugh on the trans issue.

      You’ll never look at your GP in quite the same way again

      And most of the BTL would be imprisonable under the forthcoming hate bill.

    149. mike cassidy says:

      Robert Graham

      I’m drawing closer to the suggestion that time travel comes about in the future

      And that you can explain 2020 as the year they kept coming back to fix

      Kept getting it wrong

      Kept coming back to fix …..

    150. LeggyPeggy says:

      Mike Cassidy @9.06 pm

      Thanks for posting the link to the twitter post from Snp Women’s Pledge group , I was at that meeting and can confirm that their statement is true about that meeting .

      This is the post from Teddy Hope for anyone who has not read it yet and it’s a totally inaccurate description of the meeting , please also read the the replies and comments to his post . Finlay McFarlane gave the talk on behalf of the Out for Indy group as Teddy arrived late into the meeting

      And this is from Emma Cuthbertson who was due to also attend a meeting on the same evening at Maryhill Snp but called off attending it , she has since left the Snp and joined the Scottish Greens

      And this is where she’s openly stating that she’s complained about
      J Cherry , J McAlpine , C McEleny and other prominent Snp Msp’s and members and ex Snp members .

      Regarding the photos that were shown at the meeting this is from the woman that compiled the list

      And this is the list of the photos that were shown at the meeting

      I’m asking you all to click on the last link to the photos at least and scroll through them and try to understand why women do not want to give up our hard fought fight for our rights .

    151. robbo says:

      Hand the cock having to eat humble pie.Leicester back on lockdown desire me.
      Now where’s all those that wanted early release of lockdown?
      Boris and Cummings this is on your watch again ,bloody shambles.

    152. robbo says:

      Dearie me even

    153. Sensibledave says:


      … from 9.21, you had a little run where 35% of all btl comments where from you.

      And they were all rubbish and mostly irrelevant!

      You are a star!!

    154. robbo says:

      Right Nicola,tell queen lizzie you want the Coldstream and Scots guards back.
      Back on the border protecting the Scottish people or you won’t swear allegiance any longer. Get our boys back home.

    155. Vinny says:


      You have got to be the biggest pain in the arse that has ever graced Wings Over Scotland.

      Your blind loyalty to Sturgeon is sickening.

      It is you and your fellow Sturgeon apologists that have got us into the position we are fuckin in.

      No matter what evidence is put in front of you about Sturgeon, you hit back telling us it is all a conspiracy, that your Nicola would never stoop so low.

      You are wrong. Sturgeon stuck Alex Salmond in,, Sturgeon doesn’t want Independence and she does want equality for Trans and Laws passed to protect them.

      So stop apologising for her, she has sold Scotland down the river.

    156. Beaker says:

      @robbo says:
      29 June, 2020 at 11:01 pm
      “Hand the cock having to eat humble pie.Leicester back on lockdown desire me.”

      Desire me? Lockdown getting to you 🙂 (I saw the correction, but made me laugh)

    157. cynicalHighlander says:


      Can you answer a question I have on the endorsement of N.Sturgeon by A.Salmond in 2014 which you seem gives her creditability.

      Who else could A.Salmond endorse back then as N.Sturgeon was his deputy prior to his resignation?

    158. robbo says:


      Well you would have thought he was best placed to make the judgement, no? He knew her long enough. So was it bad judgement on his part you need to ask yourself,no?
      Vinny do wan ya dobber.

    159. CameronB Brodie says:

      No dave, I have quite a sophisticated appreciation of the law, and you don’t. What you do have though, is a narrow and closed mind and quite a lot of cultural prejudice.

      Nomology, Ontology, and Phenomenology of Law and Technology

    160. Vinny says:

      Just hearing that Ireland and Greece are ready to tell UK holiday makers “thanks but no thanks”

      They are meant to be getting ready to ban any travel between Ireland and UK.

      The Irish showing us Scots the way it should be done.

      Maybe one day.

      Once we dump the SNP apologists.

    161. Fireproofjim says:

      “Desire me” is a somewhat desperate chat up line with little chance of success.

    162. robbo says:

      Aye beaker typo

      glad I noticed b4 folk thought I wiz ..well you know.

    163. Vinny says:


      I fuckin do wan right on your nut ya fuckin drunken prick

    164. Vinny says:

      Robbo sookin the cheap wine

      Is it Eldee robbo?

      A bottle of “who you looking it”

      I’ll take that bottle and ran it Doon yer throat ya prick

    165. robbo says:

      Aye ,aye captain.

    166. Vinny says:

      Why do pricks butt into conversations that have fuck all to do with them,,,why???

      Is it simply because they are full of cheap wine???

      Or is it just because they are a prick,,drunk or sober???

    167. crazycat says:

      @ Cameron BB at 5.09

      I’m going to try again with this, and see if I can find a better form of words than I did in my first attempt.

      You wrote:

      Those supporting the proposed GRA reform, wish to remove fundamental rights from biological women, in order to give a particular sexuality more rights.

      “Trans” is not a sexuality.

      “Sexuality” is about other people, about which other people a person finds sexually attractive. The possibilities are: same sex, opposite sex, both, or neither.

      “Trans” is not about other people. It’s about oneself, one’s own “identity”. “Trans” people can have any of the four sexualities; the confusion arises in the labelling (eg male “lesbians”), but it’s still that case that “trans status” accompanies sexuality and is not “a sexuality” itself.

    168. Vinny says:

      Bob Mack

      And the rest of the Sturgeon apologists coming out to play.

    169. Vinny says:


      Try to invest in a nice white wine,,,that cheap Eldee is making you look a bigger prick than you already are.

    170. Capella says:

      @ cynical highlander – I don’t have the links to hand at this late hour. But I’ll check it out tomorrow. However, Alex Salmond chose Nicola Sturgeon as his deputy. His choice. Was he wrong?

    171. CameronB Brodie says:

      It’s a very long time since I was dealing with this stuff, so I’ll happily stand corrected.

      Morality, care, and international law

    172. Vinny says:

      Nicola Sturgeon conned her way to the top of Scottish politics.


      No one has been able to answer that one yet.

    173. John D says:

      Tory Dave it’s 00:00

    174. Vinny says:

      Alex Salmond is still walking about with Nicola Sturgeon’s knife in his back

    175. John D says:

      Out of genuine interest . Were you one of the visionary cunservatives who had faith in the right wing trajectory that was leading to Alex boris de pf Johnson’s ascension ?
      Don’t need to answer obvs

    176. John D says:

      Sympathise with much of the frustration with SNP party and Government. Do I think even they can prevent a referendum in Scotland being set at least next year ? No I don’t.
      Do I think the SNP have been infected by groups and individuals with other intentions? I can not imagine it not being so. Will the SNP face an unaposed Scottish General Election after independence? I would say no way , unless an independent Scotland decides to go Wokist Fascist and the Queens 11 support that call the Tartan Army the Tranny Army can point and laugh , aha, aha , aha ha ha ha ha. .

    177. CameronB Brodie says:

      It’s a long time since I’ve looked at this stuff but I’m cooking with gas tonight. 🙂

      Journal of Advanced Nursing 1998 Apr; 27(4): 817-24.
      Misinterpretive Phenomenology: Heidegger, Ontology and Nursing Research

      This paper argues that Heidegger’s phenomenology does not have the methodological implications usually ascribed to it in nursing literature. The Heidegger of Being and Time is not in any sense antagonistic to science, nor does he think that everydayness is more authentic, more genuine, than scientific enquiry or theoretical cognition.

      It is true that social science must rest on interpretive foundations, acknowledging the self-interpreting nature of human beings, but it does not follow from this that hermeneutics exhausts all the possibilities. Positivist approaches to social science are certainly inconsistent with Heidegger’s ontology, but realist approaches are not and structuration theory, in particular, can be seen as a sociological translation of his ideas.

      Social enquiry in nursing is not therefore confined to studies of lived experience. Indeed, lived experience research constitutes not a realization, but rather a betrayal, of Heidegger’s phenomenology, being thoroughly Cartesian in spirit.

    178. CameronB Brodie says:

      P.S. A Cartesian world-view considers mind and body to be separate, as well as culture and nature. This is a very old duelist perspective that holds little relation to reality.

    179. CameronB Brodie says:

      Oops, dualist. 🙂

      Meaning and Mind from the Perspective of Dualist versus Relational Worldviews: Implications for the Development of Pointing Gestures

    180. Bob Mack says:


      Have you cultivated your stupidity of is it a natural talent?

    181. Vinny says:

      Bob Mack surfaces

    182. Vinny says:

      It’s the guy with the spelling difficulties.

      An illiterate Sturgeon apologist

      Like robbo, he can’t help himself,,,he just has to butt in

    183. CameronB Brodie says:

      Sorry, but I’m getting back into the swing of things and I can’t resist. Even though I’ve a touch of the big C myself, dyslexia. 😉

      Psychosomatic Medicine Mar-Apr 2000; 62(2): 248-57
      Antagonistic Behavior, Dominance, Hostility, and Coronary Heart Disease

    184. Brian Doonthetoon says:

      There are a number of – dare I say “people” – who are commenting btl with absolute crap, which seems to be posted more for effect, than for any progression of discussion.

      In all the time I’ve read WOS, it’s only in the past year or so that I’ve started seeing certain usernames and skipping past them – and they seem to be multiplying.

      I guess attaching themselves to the world’s most read Scottish political blog, lets them get their rocks off, now that there’s no longer Saturday morning cinema for the kids.

    185. Ottomanboi says:

      Were the strident Woke tendency to dominate within mainstream Scottish politics marginalizing or even displacing the independence theme this commentary should give cause for concern.
      A British nationalist, anti Woke platform let loose on a fundamentally socially conservative Scotland could turn the country’s political clock back. Independence = authoritarian snooping into your private life?
      Johnson’s revivalist, rhetorical flourishes would sit well within such a strategy.
      Forensic Sturgeon and Starmer might struggle even to be heard.
      This is a culture war that Scotland, in the current febrile climate, would certainly lose.

    186. Breeks says:

      Does that not take the biscuit?

      Middle of a global pandemic and the ruthless, heartless bastards reintroduce benefit sanctions.

      They’re like a vile pack of feral dogs who select the weakest and most vulnerable, and hound them remorselessly until they collapse from exhaustion, and still the bastards want more because they’re hunting for the fun of it.

      If only they pursued the Crooks, embezzlers, tax-avoiders and off-shore money launderers with equal enthusiasm… But no, those people have the contacts, resource and capacity to defend themselves. Those people are kindred.

      In real terms, the poor and needy are defenceless.

      Will the world be a better place after COVID? No. Not if you’re poor and born in the U.K.

    187. Allium says:

      To the people above who think the SNP may be changing tack on GRA – I hope you’re right, but I doubt it. NS numbers more than one TRA on her personal staff and in her close circle of friends, and her peculiar version of loyalty, combined with her occasional inability to moderate course when she gets an obsession with something, make me believe this is the hill she’s willing to ideologically die on.

      All the signs point to them announcing that they’re dropping the bit about trans-ing U16s, but after that its full steam ahead with the reforms & if you don’t agree you’re a bigot #TWAW.

      How they think this will fly in the public eye during an election I have no idea. There must be so many journalists just desperate to ask her if lesbians have penises. Jo Swinson’s fall from grace will look mild.

    188. The bearded woke parasites and misogynists that have infested the Transgender community have ,up to now, been very succseful in getting what they want,

      they have been extremely coordinated in attacking stray individuals (like the hyena does) that dare to investigate and examine their underlying goal of free male access to female only spaces,

      but they have become emboldened by their small victories and now want to attack bigger pray,

      the more they attack the more thay are being seen for what they are and the better we can counter their attacks and free the transgender community from the woke misogynist parasites.

    189. Breeks says:

      Capella says:
      29 June, 2020 at 11:47 pm

      ……However, Alex Salmond chose Nicola Sturgeon as his deputy. His choice. Was he wrong?

      We could ask him…. 😉

      And even then, what’s to say Nicola maybe was a very able deputy, but turns out to be someone who crumbles and folds in the roll of leader?

      I’m curious Capella. Do you really believe people’s fears and concerns about Nicola’s lack of drive for Independence are unfounded?

    190. Ottomanboi says:

      Sturgeon is on record as having indicated she has problems with nationalism and even the SNP’s name.
      I believe that tells us much about her personal perspective.
      I assume she still holds Scotland to be a ‘nation’ or is that word also diversity negative?

    191. dramfineday says:

      Brian Doonthetoon at 1.10 AM (FGS Brian what are you doing up at that hour?) anyway, I find myself largely in agreement with you.

    192. SOG says:

      As Brian DTT said above at 0110, the btl bickering by the same few names puts me off reading after the first half-day or so, on every post. I’ve been around, largely silent, for a few years now.

      Whatever effect it may have on newcomers cannot be a benefit. Further, and matching my thoughts about the SNP, I’m likely to take the attitude that I won’t pay to support this dross. It wasn’t big but my SNP membership and donation went instead to CM’s fund. They Know Who They Are can finance Wings if they keep dominating.

    193. Socrates MacSporran says:

      After reading the post above, by dramfineday, I was moved to check-out the post by Brian Doonthetoon @ 1.10am.

      Excellent post Brian, maybe, like me, you had been on a Bruce Willis binge night – Die Hard 3 followed by that gangster caper movie.

      None of my business, but, your post was on the money.

    194. Capella says:

      I’m curious Capella. Do you really believe people’s fears and concerns about Nicola’s lack of drive for Independence are unfounded?
      We’re in the middle of a pandemic. It would have been very stupid to plough on campaigning under these conditions. But the pandemic will pass. Meanwhile, the polls for independence and Nicola Sturgeon and the SNP keep rising. Hence the panic from some of the btl “I hate Wee Krankie” brigade.

      I would need some real evidence to change my opinion. Not blind loyalty to the king ower the water. However, if Alex Salmond comes out and accuses NS of foot dragging or back stabbing then that would be decisive IMO.

    195. Vinny says:

      I agree with above posts about disruption.

      Robbo and others post to instigate trouble.

      I blame it on the excess consumption of cheap wine.

    196. Joseph says:

      I agree with above posts about disruption.

      Robbo and others post to instigate trouble.

      They seem to hunt in packs and go after whoever they have chosen as their victim for that particular evening.

      I blame it on the excess consumption of alcohol.

      Lay off the vino guys, it clouds your judgement.

      The Rev should introduce a breathalyser test before we are allowed onto his site.

      Probably empty the site right enough.

    197. schrodingers cat says:

      Breeks says:
      Do you really believe people’s fears and concerns about Nicola’s lack of drive for Independence are unfounded?

      yes, Nicola’s drive for Independence is dictated by the people, eg, when support for the snp fell to 38% in 2017, the demand for a s30 was taken of the table. rightly so

      that said nothing about her belief in independence, it was a political decision, a correct decision, support for the snp in Dec was 42% in the polls, 45% in the election. it is now 52-54%

    198. mike cassidy says:

      For those who thought Parler might be an alternative to censortrigger-happy Twitter.

      As Predicted: Parler Is Banning Users It Doesn’t Like

    199. Robert graham says:

      The times are a changing
      Who would have thought support for Jakey from independence supporters ,

      These Trans vindictive really nasty pieces of work have just crossed the Line , they have brought attention to what they have been up to ,they can no longer operate under the radar because people are beginning to notice them and are not fkn happy by what they have seen ,a backlash is guaranteed .and they better run for cover especially the ones inside the SNP management

      Bawjaws little helper Cummings has signalled disrupting the operation of the Civil Service oh dear now that’s a really stupid fight to pick , declaring war on the people who actually run the country can and probably will bring the both of these Clowns back to earth with a very painful bump .
      Bawjaws is presently talking his usual pish and bluster I doubt if anyone believes a fkn word he says , he has lost the country sane people know he’s talking pish and anything he says will be forgotten by tea time, scratch the surface and it will all fall apart , oh fk Borris we have heard it before and your record is not just bad it’s bloody hilarious , a true Clown at work .

    200. Rm says:

      Boris Johnstone has just said that this is the time to strengthen the union, I hope Blackford and Sturgeon respond by saying this is the time to end the union, time to move on to pastures new start the 21st century afresh, break away from this medieval union that’s held Scotland down for centuries, if they don’t respond it’s nae looking good , buy I think everybody knows that nothing will be said, look at this last six years, are we any further on ? Aye probably further going the opposite way.

    201. schrodingers cat says:

      Boris Johnstone has just said that………… the moratorium on on any politics other than covid 19, is over

      at the same moment, leicester major gives speech about how leicester is moving back into lockdown

    202. Breeks says:

      Capella says:
      30 June, 2020 at 10:48 am

      …I would need some real evidence to change my opinion. Not blind loyalty to the king ower the water. However, if Alex Salmond comes out and accuses NS of foot dragging or back stabbing then that would be decisive IMO.

      Fair comment I suppose.

      I’ve been advocating a constitutional defence of Scottish Sovereignty and the emphatic Democratic will of a sovereign people since 2016, and demanding that Scotland establish a Constitutional Backstop to protect our Nation from subjugation and removal from Europe. It would have worked. It was a strategy which did work, – for Northern Ireland, and Scotland had a National Constitution that was a much stronger argument than the Good Friday Agreement. But the SNP did nothing, squandered our every advantage, and came back with absolutely nothing.

      The final straw for me Nicola Sturgeon’s gutless capitulation on the 31st January. Scotland subjugated and out of Europe without even putting up a fight. What a fucking disgrace. Fight? There wasn’t even a token gesture of defiance. The humiliation and embarrassment of it will burn my soul to my dying day, and she had the utter cheek to keep everyone on tenterhooks to “heighten the effect” of her weasel words. That was the end of Nicola Sturgeon for me. That was the moment, although it had been a long time coming.

      We will NEVER resurrect Scotland’s Independence with gutless nobodies running their own show, pig ignorant of their own Nation’s Constitution, and singularly unsuccessful in their capacity to capitalise on events and turn them to Scotland’s advantage. Independence was there for the taking, and we’d have kept our economy in the EU into the bargain, but the opportunity has been squandered for absolutely NOTHING in return.

      You want more evidence Capella? Good luck to you. I myself, have seen enough. I will NEVER put my faith in the SNP again.

      Scotland’s last hope is Joanna Cherry, but not SNP Joanna Cherry, I mean the Legal Eagle Joanna Cherry, pursuing a Constitutional initiative through the UN and Constitutional Courts to undo and reverse Scotland’s unconstitutional subjugation.

      Politics? Meh. “Parcel of Rogues“ they were in 1707, and nothing has changed. Lying scumbags.

    203. Famous15 says:

      I do not hate trans people. They do have issues which require care and love to help them lead a happy life. Dysphoria must be really challenging.

      I do hate the nasty, vindictive and vicious pretended supporters of trans rights.

      The SNP has suffered the entryism of these nasties and must cleanse the party of such wicked people. Most of them are “soft” on independence anyway. I do not pretend to know what motivates their hatred but it is so destructive. Do they have a distorted feeling of faux victimhood?

    204. Gary45% says:

      Just had the pleasure!! of listening to Johnson whilst gardening.
      As the old Police song goes.
      Every road we make,
      Every family we break,
      Every plot we stake,
      Every lie we make,
      We’ll be taxing you.
      A new road to the Northern Colony woohoo, and even more debt handed to Scotland, to pay for Westminster’s failings.

    205. schrodingers cat says:


      unfortunately, 2017 support dropped 2 38%, thats why indyref2 was taken off the table. correctly imo. support’s now rising & i believe it will continue to do so. it’s the voters who decide the direction of travel, not the snp. their job is 2 convince voters. hint, polls at 52-54%

      and on the last day of any possible brexit deal, btl here is awash with comments about chics with diks

      it says more about the posters than anything else.

    206. Ottomanboi says:

      I wonder if the vociferous Ms Black and her partisans know anything of French history.
      The Commitee of Public Safety was the revolutionary watchdog against wrong thinking enemies of the state. It instituted the bloody terror that attempted to eliminate ‘opposition’. Its leaders came to an ignominious end.
      Although no Robespierre Ms Black might do well to ponder on the bitter fruits of unbridled zeal.


    207. robbo says:

      Joseph @11.06

      Thanks Joseph for your vote of confidence. If you think I’m the bad one and I an instigator then you haven’t being paying attention imho.
      If it’s an anti NS site you wish to have lock stock and barrel then I wish you well.

    208. cynicalHighlander says:

      So Alex was wrong to go for independence when support was only 25% give me strength.

    209. schrodingers cat says:

      cynicalHighlander says:
      30 June, 2020 at 12:39 pm
      So Alex was wrong to go for independence when support was only 25% give me strength.

      actually, it was at 29% when polls were yes/no/devo max. once devo max was finally rejected by wm and removed from the polls, yes was at 42-47% from then on until the actual vote

      you need too strengthen your memory too

    210. schrodingers cat says:


      it says more about the posters than anything else.

      turks have always been big fans of lady boys and small boys

      i rest my case

    211. liz says:

      @capella. Alex S did not choose her. There was a deal between them that she would not stand in his way to become FM but he would hand over the reigns to her when the time came.
      That time was when he resigned.

      If we had won indy, her elevation would have been much later.

      She was the deputy, who else would he support?

    212. Socrates MacSporran says:


      Well said again young man – you really are on-fire at the moment.

      Like you, the moment the SNP lost me was, 31 January, when all their brave words, all those times Ian Blackford stood up in the House of Commons and said: “Scotland will not be dragged out of the EU against it’s will,” proved to be merely empty politician-speak.

      We are being dragged out of the EU against our will and for as long as the SNP fails to heed Enoch Powell’s reminder, “Power devolved is power retained we will never regain our freedom.

      We cannot play by Westminster’s rules, we have to change the rules – and, as you say Breeks our best chance is for Joanne Cherry to mount her constitutional legal challenge.

      Annoyingly, for all these encouraging opinion poll results of late, we still cannot state beyond reasonable doubt – that a majority of the sovereign people of Scotland support independence. However, we can say: “As shown by the 2016 Referendum result, a majority of the sovereign people of Scotland support our continued membership of the EU.”

      We should be fighting for that result to be honoured. And since the only way it can be honoured is for Scotland to become Independent – all the energies of the SNP should be directed towards that end.

    213. CameronB Brodie says:

      schrodingers cat
      “and on the last day of any possible brexit deal, btl here is awash with comments about chics with diks

      it says more about the posters than anything else.”

      Perhaps some of us able to respect the rule-of-law, where as you have admitted you have no faith in it.

    214. CameronB Brodie says:

      schrodingers cat
      “turks have always been big fans of lady boys and small boys

      i rest my case”

      Are you sure you not just a dick?

    215. Jockanese Wind Talker says:

      Couple of major dates regarding Brexit (remember that?) incoming over the next 48hrs:

      30th June 2020 – Financial services equivalence decision deadline

      1st July 2020 – Fisheries agreement deadline

      1st July 2020 – Any extension to the transition period must be agreed before this date

      So we will know by Thursday morning if The City of London’s Financial Sector gets what it wants; if there will be no extension post 31st December 2020 and if Scotlands Fishing communities will be sold out again by Westminster!

    216. schrodingers cat says:

      Socrates MacSporran
      the only way it can be honoured is for Scotland to become Independent – all the energies of the SNP should be directed towards that end.

      how do we do that during the covid 19 epidemic?
      the only way we could do this is to call for an early Holyrood election,

      covid 19 wasnt nicola’s fault, not even boris’s. when is the earliest we could have a holyrood election?

      i would have wished that support for indy would have been higher well before now. but it wasnt. people needed to see an english nationalist as pm, rather than the threat of it. unfortunately, i think many scottish voters will need to actually see what a goat rodeo brexit will be on jan 1st 2021 before they finally cross over to yes

      sad, but true

    217. schrodingers cat says:

      the rule-of-law is whatever the establishment decide it is….ask stu

    218. schrodingers cat says:

      Socrates MacSporran

      bear in mind, that even if we declare out independence before 1st jan 2021, an indy scotland would still have to go through the s49 process of a new nation joining the eu

      no remain or rejoining is possible as far as the eu is concerned. that will continue to be the eu’s position, up until we actually declare our indy, with wm’s agreement.

      it may change after that point since what the rule-of-law actually is in the eu, is whatever they decide it will be

    219. schrodingers cat says:

      @Jockanese Wind Talker

      bojo says today we will leave with an austrailian type deal. ie wto with a few deals on specific trade items

      as far as deal lines go, in reality, the eu will probably continue to negotiate until 1st jan

      at which point we will leave under an australian type deal minus, ie, minus any deals on specific trade items

    220. CameronB Brodie says:

      schrodingers cat
      “the rule-of-law is whatever the establishment decide it is….ask stu”

      I thought that’s what we were trying to change by supporting the indy cause? I’m confused.

    221. schrodingers cat says:

      the propensity to blame nicola and the snp for the current state of affairs here, btl, is misguided

      the blame lies squarely with the scottish electorate

    222. schrodingers cat says:

      CameronB Brodie says:
      “the rule-of-law is whatever the establishment decide it is….ask stu”

      I thought that’s what we were trying to change by supporting the indy cause? I’m confused.

      it is cameron, however, we aint indy yet, more’s the pity

    223. CameronB Brodie says:

      Scotland is up shite creek because of a cultural disrespect for ethics and the rule-of-law.

      Ethics in the context of society
      3 Ethics in the context of society: ethics, society
      and the law

    224. schrodingers cat says:

      ethics is immoral

      morality is unethical

      nothing more than an attempt to pass off ones opinion as something more than just ones opinion.

      opinion is all there is

    225. CameronB Brodie says:

      schrodingers cat
      Is that a recognized position or is that simply your opinion?

      Ethics, morality, law – what’s the difference?

    226. Jockanese Wind Talker says:

      So BoJo has just announced UK will have a No Deal Brexit @schrodingers cat says at 1:21 pm

      “EU trade chief: ‘Australia-style’ Brexit agreement means no deal.”

    227. schrodingers cat says:

      CameronB Brodie says:
      Is that a recognized position or is that simply your opinion?

      I recognise it as my opinion which is why i have no need to to hyperlink to someone elses

    228. schrodingers cat says:

      Jockanese Wind Talker says:
      30 June, 2020 at 1:35 pm
      So BoJo has just announced UK will have a No Deal Brexit

      pretty much. i doubt anyone here is surprised

    229. CameronB Brodie says:

      Here’s one for anyone interested in defending the rule-of-law from right-wing and left-wing populism.

      Law and Philosophy (2005) 24: 239–262

    230. schrodingers cat says:

      Here’s one for anyone interested in defending the rule-of-law from right-wing and left-wing populism.

      in your opinion?

    231. CameronB Brodie says:

      schrodingers cat
      I expressed no opinion, where as you express hostility towards an ethical defense of the rule-of-law. Go figure?

      The Law and the “Spirit of the Law” in Legal Ethics

    232. schrodingers cat says:

      CameronB Brodie says:
      I expressed no opinion…..

      in your opinion you have no opinion………….

      er, put yer brain care specialist on danger money cameron

    233. shug says:

      Can anyone in the Stranraer area tell me if there is any work going on around the ferry terminal. I am thinking of lorry parks for checking goods crossing to Ireland

    234. schrodingers cat says:

      I expressed hostility towards the entire concept of ethics and morality.

      they are tummy wipes for people who refuse to accept they are only expressing their own opinions

    235. CameronB Brodie says:

      schrodingers cat
      I’ve tried to keep things civil but you’re apparently looking for a fight. Here’s an opinion for you. Your lack of respect for the law makes you a person who’s opinion should be treated with caution.

      Law and Morals — Jurisprudence and Ethics

    236. Capella says:

      @ Breeks – you sound very bitter. Whatever the polls were when Alex Salmond started the Indy campaign, they ended at 55 – 45 against. He lost. I have a great deal of admiration and respect for Alex Salmond. I’ve followed his advice over e.g. joining the SNP, subscribing to The National and supporting Nicola Sturgeon as FM. When the facts change, my opinion will change.

      @ Liz – Nicola Sturgeon was Deputy Leader for 10 years. Surely Alex Salmond would have noticed if there had been any lack of commitment on her part?

    237. Cuilean says:

      Vis-a-vis whether folks thought, in May 2014, there might be a Labour FM in the next 10 years, perhaps folks were factoring in a YES result in September 2014, which would have made the likelihood of a Labour FM more feasible than the chuckles such a notion receives now, in 2020, six years on.

      Also well to remember, in May 2014, that Labour held 41/59 MP seats. Labour doubtless thought like the poet Shelley’s, ‘Ozymandias’, their power was untouchable, just six years ago! In May 2014, when asked that question, the Labour Party had never held less than 40 MP seats in Scotland for 60 years.

      Now with just 1 MP, the labour party will never again regain its swathes of voters in Scotland until the day it fully embraces independence. Most of my friends are ex-labour voters who all vow they will never again vote Labour but its incredible just how swiftly Labour fell from power here. SNP please take note.

    238. schrodingers cat says:

      Your lack of respect for the law makes you a person who’s opinion should be treated with caution…………..

      is that your opinion or is it now law? 🙂

    239. JGedd says:


      Agree wholeheartedly with your comment. Entirely the reason I hardly ever visit btl comments. Certain opinions now seem to dominate giving the impression that these posters are many whereas it is simply multiple posts from two or three people regurginating the same opinions over and over again.

      There is also the culture of insult and denigration. Perhaps these commenters learned their technique from certain other sites where aggressive attacks are the norm?

    240. schrodingers cat says:

      well the chiks with diks and anti nicola brigade seem to have offskied, i even managed to slow down camerons copy and pasting hyperlinks for a bit.

      so where were we……..ah yes

      tomorrow is the eu deal deadline, do you think the eu will make an announcement, if so, what will it say?

    241. Bob Mack says:

      @Schrodingers Cat,

      Au revoir new amis enough Ecosse.?

    242. Bob Mack says:

      Try again.

      Au revoir mes Amis en Ecosse?. My tablet does not like French words. Must be English.

    243. liz says:

      @Capella. I don’t believe there was a lack of commitment when she was deputy.

      I’ve said before I believe she’s wants indy but she wants it handed to her.

      Alex S was always the risk taker, she was the yin to his yang.
      I’ve met people like her before.

      They want every i dotted, every t crossed, they want to examine options from every angle possible, consider all options including all barriers.
      She’s extremely cautious by nature, she believe she governs for the whole country, even those who hate her.

      She said before, there is a world of difference between being leader as opposed to deputy. She said it was harder than she thought.

      I gave up on her gradually, for me the final straw, apart from all the mandates and excuses, was when the EU commision in Edinburgh, lowered their flag, waved goodbye and all she could say was – haste ye back.
      I could’ve have wept from anger and frustration.

      Many people I know backed her all the way, tried to reassure me, keeping her powder dry, don’t show the enemy your hand, she has a plan, yadda, yadda,
      Most of them gave up after the January sermon from the mount, I didn’t even listen to it, cos I expected nothing.

      Now many more realise she doesn’t have it in her.
      I fervently hope, I’m proved wrong

    244. schrodingers cat says:

      goodbye my scottish friends ???

      i dont understand what you mean

      peutetre ton ordinateur n’aim pas des mots englais aussi?

    245. schrodingers cat says:

      They want every i dotted, every t crossed,

      ahem, you mean like 50%+ support for indy from the voters? who wud a’ thunk it liz

    246. Capella says:

      @ SC – Au revoir les rosbifs, ne laissez pas le porte claque votre derrier a sortir.

      Bonjour Eccossais! Toujours la meme chose – la Vieille Alliance.

    247. CameronB Brodie says:

      Our lack of respect for one another is largely due to our social cognition being screwed up, not least by a Presbyterian hostility to the Natural Law. A cultural characteristic that is reproduced and consolidated by British nationalism, and constitutional practice that belongs to the era of slavery.

      Anger, Feelings of Revenge, and Hate

    248. schrodingers cat says:

      rosbifs lol

      havent heard that for a long time

    249. Capella says:

      Pardonez les typos.

    250. schrodingers cat says:

      cappella plutot

      fais gaffe que la port ne frappe pas ton cul en sortant

    251. schrodingers cat says:

      Our lack of respect is due to our social cognition being screwed up a Presbyterian hostility to the Natural Law.

      no it isnt

    252. CameronB Brodie says:

      Both British nationalists and TRAs follow pseudo-faiths empowered through a disregard for the Natural Law, and the principle of universality. Neither social pathology will be curable without a respect for science, ethics, and law.

      The Deeper the Love, the Deeper the Hate

    253. Capella says:

      Les noisettes valises ont parti. Peut-etre ils ne parlent pas Francais?
      (Franglais per Kilometres Kingston.)

    254. callmedave says:

      Well Boris dribbled his ‘Jackson Pollock’ all over the screen at lunch time trying to placate all of us with a thin veneer of left over Union jam tomorrow.

      Wasn’t a good performance either from a man reputed to be an excellent orator, bluster and bluff about sums it up.
      Trying to emulate President Franklin Roosevelt…Aye!

      Recycling previously announced moneys already in the system £5Bn and according to the S-Gov and no Barnett consequentials likely to go to any of the colonial Nations.

      “Not much of it new and not much of a deal” says UK Labour


      N. Ireland……..00…….Total…..551….BBC
      UK………….today…no data announced.

      BBC has no ‘England only’ corona numbers again back to normal.

    255. Bob Mack says:

      Mon dieu. Est ce que j’habite maintenan en France?

      Un jour put etre.

    256. schrodingers cat says:

      British nationalists and TRAs follow pseudo-faiths empowered through a disregard for the Natural Law, no it isnt the problem is faith in the first place

      those who believe in faith are the problem. they voice an opinion then pretend it isnt their opinion,

      since it is in their preferred good book, bible,koran,beano etc, it is a objective truth and if you disagree with them, it isnt down to a difference of opinion, you are merely wrong.

      if morality, ethics and faith were real, they would be static and unchanging, as it is, what is considered to be good and true change constantly in direct proportionality to the publics consencus of opinion.

      proof that morality doesnt exist

    257. Bob Mack says:

      I’m not about to make everybody happy. It seems from a report that another new strain of flu has been found in China which also has the potential for a Pandemic.

      Lucky white Heather and rabbits foot dug out the drawers.

      Currently on NHK and CNN.

    258. CameronB Brodie says:

      schrodingers cat
      If you’re not prepared to support your assertions, then I’m happy to disregard your opinion as unsubstantiated and dubious opinion.

      Full text.

      European Journal of International Law, Volume 30, Issue 1, February 2019, Pages 17–52,
      Imagining the Rule of Law: Rereading the Grotian ‘Tradition’

      International law exists in the slippery zone between abstract speculation on binding principles and realistic deference to power. The position of Hugo Grotius as ‘father’ of international law, this article will suggest, results from the way later lawyers have appreciated his suggestion that when human beings enter that zone, they will discover a tendency to subordinate themselves to ‘rules’ that is lacking from other living creatures.

      Grotius then uses this assumed tendency to explain the trust and confidence with which members of good societies agree to live in peace and expect mutual benefits from cooperating with each other. The same tendency also entitles them to punish those who question the beneficial nature of these rules or lay down obstacles to their expansion.

      The importance of Grotius in the history of legal thought is highlighted by the manner in which the idea (though not the expression) of the ‘rule of law’ emerges in De iure belli ac pacis (1625) as a powerful justification of the government of a post-feudal, commercial state.

    259. Sarah says:

      If you want a good laugh look at RS Archer’s twitter today and yesterday. He lives in France with French wife and has some Brexit occasional neighbours who say “they didn’t vote for Brexit to be treated like this”!!

      Apparently it is all Brussels fault and their son is coming over from England to speak to the local mayor about it… after speaking to Farage too.

      Hysterically funny – I haven’t had such a good laugh since the last time I read about such folk.

    260. John Digsby says:

      @Astonished earlier in the thread…

      We’ve already left the EU. Brexit has already happened. That ship sailed January 31st

      If you planned to be angry about that tomorrow or the end of the year when the temporary arrangements end, then you can bring forward the rage against Blackford and his ilk now.

    261. schrodingers cat says:

      CameronB Brodie says:
      30 June, 2020 at 3:24 pm
      schrodingers cat
      If you’re not prepared to support your assertions,

      i thought i had. i asserted that morality was an illusion, in support of this assertion i proposed that if morality was an objective truth, it would be unchanging. it isnt, it changes in line with public opinion.

      proof that it is an illussion.

      you on the otherhand just post innumerable never read hyperlinks to people you think are clever who express an opinion then you dress it up as fact

      you cant keep posting such hyperlinks to philosophical treatises and then ignore people when they finally take you on?

    262. schrodingers cat says:

      John Digsby says:

      If you planned to be angry about that tomorrow or the end of the year when the temporary arrangements end, then you can bring forward the rage against Blackford and his ilk now.

      in the middle of a pandemic??

    263. Famous15 says:

      To quote FDR in reference to Boris Johnson’s pretendy New Deal:

      “This day will live in infamy”

    264. jfngw says:

      @schrodingers cat

      I don’t think this date (30th June) has any great significance, it will just be another rolling date thrown up as the final date, just like the withdrawal agreement.

      Think of it as the iold song ‘Three Wheels On My Wagon’, we will keep on rolling until all the wheels have fallen off and we are totally out on our arse, followed by a Boris Johnson declaration of victory in our time.

    265. mike cassidy says:

      Can I be first to say

      Infamy! Infamy! They’ve all got it infamy.

      And I presume this is Sarah’s twitter laugh thread.

      Its not clear what the original ‘problem’ is for the couple

      But it reads like their response is pure gammon.

    266. schrodingers cat says:

      jfngw says:
      30 June, 2020 at 3:54 pm
      @schrodingers cat

      I don’t think this date (30th June) has any great significance, it will just be another rolling date thrown up as the final date, just like the withdrawal agreement.

      you are correct, see barnier’s opening para

      Page 1 of 7
      Eurofi General Assembly
      30 June 2020
      Remarks by Michel Barnier
      Dear David, dear Didier,
      Ladies and gentlemen,
      My sincere apologies for not being able to join you in person.
      As you may know, we agreed with the UK to intensify our negotiations,
      starting this week.
      We do this to give the negotiations every chance of succeeding.
      I continue to believe that an agreement is possible.
      The EU will work for this.
      We will remain calm, pragmatic and determined until the very end.
      Because of the new negotiation agenda this week, I have had to reschedule
      many meetings.
      But I wanted to address you this short video message all the same.
      These are difficult times.
      The coronavirus pandemic has already taken hundreds of thousands of lives
      around the world.
      Global and EU economies have been hit hard.
      Page 2 of 7
      Amid the uncertain outlook, I understand you would like clarity on the Brexit
      negotiations and the ongoing process for assessment of equivalences.
      So let me tell you briefly where we stand on these two points.
      As you know, the key instrument to regulate interactions with the UK financial
      system will be our equivalence regimes.
      These are autonomous, unilateral tools.
      And, as such, they are not part of our current negotiations.
      I will come back to these in a moment.
      Next to this, as part of our negotiations, we are proposing to include, in our
      future agreement, a chapter on financial services, in line with what we have in
      other Free Trade Agreements.
      Our proposals would give UK operators legal certainty that they would not face
      discrimination when establishing themselves in the EU.
      And the same for EU operators in the UK.
      The UK, however, is looking to go much further.
      I will be blunt: its proposals are unacceptable.
      Firstly, they would severely limit the EU’s regulatory and decision-taking
      For instance:
      Page 3 of 7
      ? The UK is seeking to create a legally enforceable regulatory cooperation
      framework on financial services in our agreement.
      ? It is attempting to frame the EU’s process for withdrawing equivalence
      decisions; trying to turn our unilateral decisions into co-managed ones.
      ? It wants to limit the scope of the so-called prudential carve-out.
      There is no way Member States or the European Parliament would accept this!
      Secondly, the UK is trying to keep as many Single Market benefits as it can.
      It would like to make it easy to continue to run EU businesses from London,
      with minimal operations and staff on the continent.
      For instance:
      ? It wants almost free reign for service suppliers to fly in and out for shortterm stays (‘Mode 4’).
      ? It proposes provisions on the performance of back-office functions that
      could create a significant risk of circumvention of financial services
      ? It wants to assimilate British audit firms to European ones to meet
      ownership and control requirements.
      ? It wants to ban residence requirements for senior managers and boards
      of directors, to ensure that all essential functions remain in London.
      Let me be clear: The UK chose to no longer be a Member State.
      It chose to leave the EU Single Market and stop applying our common
      ecosystem of rules, supervision and enforcement mechanisms.
      In particular, it refuses to recognise any role for the European Court of Justice.
      Page 4 of 7
      These choices have consequences.
      The UK cannot keep the benefits of the Single Market without the obligations.
      In the EU’s view, our future cooperation should be voluntary and based on
      We would like to set up a voluntary framework for dialogue among regulators
      and supervisors that would allow for intensive exchanges on regulatory and
      prudential issues.
      We already have well-functioning dialogues of this kind with other major
      financial services jurisdictions.
      As for the equivalence assessment process, which is under the responsibility of
      Executive Vice-President Valdis Dombrovskis and led by experts in DG FISMA:
      As you know, the Political Declaration committed us to “best endeavours” to
      finalise our respective assessments by the end of June.
      ? The European Commission has therefore sent questionnaires to the UK,
      covering 28 areas where equivalence assessments are possible.
      ? So far, the UK has only answered 4 of these questionnaires.
      ? So we are not there yet.
      These assessments are particularly challenging.
      Firstly, because they have to be forward-looking, given the UK’s publicly stated
      intention to diverge from EU rules after 1 January 2021.
      Page 5 of 7
      ? Last week, the UK published a paper on its future regulatory framework
      for financial services.
      This is a useful document.
      ? We are now analysing it in detail to gain clarity on how UK rules will
      ? But let us have no illusions: The UK will progressively start diverging
      from the EU framework.
      This is even one of the main purposes of Brexit.
      Secondly, the size of the UK financial market and the very close links between
      the EU and UK financial systems mean we need to be extra careful.
      ? We need to capture all potential risks: for financial stability, market
      integrity, investor and consumer protection, and the level playing field.
      Ladies and gentlemen,
      I know that many of you would like the level and ease of access to our mutual
      markets to remain the same.
      I know that many hope our equivalence decisions will provide continuity.
      Many believe that “responsible politicians” on both side of the Channel should
      make this happen.
      But things have to change. The UK and the EU will be two separate markets,
      two jurisdictions.
      And the EU must ensure that important risks to our financial stability are
      managed within the framework of our Single Market ecosystem of legislation,
      supervision and jurisdiction.
      Page 6 of 7
      Having been Commissioner for financial services, I can reassure you that I know
      well the EU’s capital markets and the role of the UK in some parts of that
      market. As does Executive Vice-President Dombrovskis.
      However – especially in the context of Europe’s economic recovery – we must
      look beyond short-term adaptation and fragmentation costs, to our long-term
      ? Building our Capital Markets Union. This means strengthening our
      independence when it comes to financial market infrastructures;
      ? Further deepening the Banking Union and;
      ? Fostering the international role of the euro.
      And so, we will only grant equivalences in those areas where it is clearly in
      the interest of the EU; of our financial stability; our investors and our
      What does this mean in practice?
      It means that you need to get ready for 1 January 2021!
      ? We now know that the transition period will not be extended.
      ? The EU was open to an extension. But the UK refused. It is the UK’s
      So, 1 January 2021 will bring big changes.
      UK firms will lose the benefit of the financial services passports.
      This should not come as a surprise to you. We have been warning about this for
      the past 3 years.
      Page 7 of 7
      Furthermore, as you know well, in some areas – such as insurance, commercial
      bank lending or deposit-taking – EU law does not provide for the possibility to
      award equivalences that would grant market access to third-country firms.
      In these areas, if British firms want to provide services in the EU, they must ask
      for an authorisation in the EU. Or comply with all the relevant national regimes
      of those EU Member States where they want to continue to be active.
      Nothing in the agreement that we are negotiating will change this!
      These are automatic, mechanical consequences of Brexit.
      If you are not yet ready for these broad changes that will take place – whatever
      happens – on 1 January 2021, I can only urge you to speed up preparations
      and take all necessary precautionary measures!
      I know how mobile and dynamic the financial industry is.
      I trust in its capacity to adapt to new times and continue to contribute to
      developing the Capital Markets Union and Single Market for financial services.
      We cannot do this with regulation alone.
      You all have a crucial role to play. As of now.
      Let us look to the future not with fear of the unknown but with confidence in
      our well-regulated and supervised markets.
      Thank you to all of you for your attention. And thank you, David, Didier for your
      I hope to see you in person next time!

    267. CameronB Brodie says:

      schrodingers cat
      I’m linking folk to credible sources that back my opinion. All you have is your opinion. Away and learn how to argue properly, before thinking you’re anything special. 😉

    268. jfngw says:

      I had a look at this site that uses the 2016 results plus a slider to demonstrate how switching your from SNP to ISP changes the results. You really need to do it per region as I’m not sure the all Scotland one accurately reflects the changes.

      ISP taking 15% of SNP votes, only removes 2 unionists from the parliament, at this level they are mostly taking SNP & Green seats. They really need to take over 30% before they start making any real impact. The risk of course is if the SNP don’t take all the seats in the regions they currently hold, then you have split the independence list vote and possibly hand the parliament to the BritNats.

      It can work but you really need to be careful on voting day and weigh up the risks, what are the polls saying and will the SNP voters turn out and vote.

    269. Scozzie says:

      well here we are – no deal Brexit as many saw in the tea-leaves. And so to torture myself a bit more I re-read that fateful statement from NS – yes that one that snuffed out any chance of the SNP doing what they were elected to do with their squillion mandates.

      But what’s even worse reading it 6 months down the track, is that what little action was alluded to has been conveniently swept aside.

      And COVID-19 is not a cover for inaction, coz it hasn’t stopped the SNP keeping the pot boiling on other things like GRA / Hate speech laws etc.

      I’m curious to know how many occasions independence has been spoken about by SNP MPs and MSPs in the last 6 months coz I can’t think of anything of significance. Yet still doesn’t stop some of them tweeting relentlessly on side-show issues and a certain House Jock from Perth pouring scorn on any kind of plan B!

      You’d think COVID would provide the raw cold hard truths that could hammer home the need for Scotland to govern itself…and could’ve / should’ve been used to gain that political capital. Not so it seems!

      It’s not a happy ending as you know, but linked here anyways…

    270. schrodingers cat says:

      CameronB Brodie says:
      I’m linking folk to credible sources that back my opinion. All you have is your opinion. Away and learn how to argue properly, before thinking you’re anything special.

      what i have learned from previous debates is those who are losing are the first to descend into purile insults

      do you really think you are winning this argument mon ami? you havent given anything like as good as you got

    271. schrodingers cat says:


      i dont agree with everything the anti chiks wi’ diks party say but to be fair to them, they have publically stated they are very unlikely to stand candidates on the list in the south

      as for taking seats off the greens…. so what?

      with the snp only winning 1 list msp seat in 7/8 regions of scotland (with 850k votes) and the potential to replace loads more unionists list msp’s, i think it is a risk worth taking

    272. schrodingers cat says:

      Scozzie says:
      COVID-19 is not a cover for inaction, coz it hasn’t stopped the SNP keeping the pot boiling on other things like GRA

      the anti CWD twitterati are very capable of keeping this pot boiling without help from the snp

    273. Capella says:

      @ sarah – you’re right, it’s hilarious and is certainly upsetting the brexiteers. Julia Hartley-Brewer is indignant.

    274. jfngw says:

      @schrodingers cat

      I have no qualms about the Greens losing seats, I wouldn’t vote for them if they were the only party on the ballot paper. My point was it doesn’t increase the number of independence supporting MSP’s at 15%. I’ll be more circumspect until voting day about how I’ll vote.

      In the end if we can’t poll more than 50% for independence parties at the next election then we are pretty much struggling anyway, no matter what the make up of the parliament. We may remove some dead wood but I’m not sure we would be any closer to the goal of independence. After all taking 81% of Westminster seats made no difference.

    275. schrodingers cat says:


      next you will be doing a trump and blaming covid on nicola. get a grip

    276. CameronB Brodie says:

      schrodingers cat
      What a shifty piece of footwork. Where’s your proof you’re not full of it?

      The Rule of Law in International
      Law Today

    277. schrodingers cat says:

      jfngw says:
      I’ll be more circumspect until voting day about how I’ll vote.

      clever move

      the reason the greens/rise etc didnt capitalise more on the list vote was down to a lack of knowledge about the he electoral system and mainly a lack of trust on the part of the voters.
      the trust the electorate had in the greens in 2016 has completely evapourated, hence the need for another option.

      i dont rate the isp’s chances since their main raison d’etre is playing to the small and very vociferous anti chics with diks brigade

      however, other new indy parties will come forward, and if they can convince the voters to trust them, they could do very well

    278. schrodingers cat says:

      CameronB Brodie says:
      What a shifty piece of footwork. Where’s your proof you’re not full of it?

      I rest my case m’lud

    279. schrodingers cat says:

      Where’s your proof you’re not full of it?

      Protagoras, man is the measure of all things

    280. Gary45% says:

      Will try and have a look at it, (don’t do twitter)
      Although what you wrote is funny, on a serious note we all know people with this attitude.
      Hate to say it “the old rule Britannia” mentality is there for all to see. Its claimed there are many Indy supporters who voted Brexit, for the life of me I cannot understand why, maybe the fishing etc was enough to persuade them, hopefully when it hits the fan, they may realise, it wasn’t that bad being in the EU.
      Unfortunately for the UK , Johnson now has the ultimate excuse for the impending Brexit disaster that is coming next year. COVID-19.
      It would be fantastic if the EU countries now refer to the British who live abroad as immigrants rather than Ex Pats. Treat them the same way Britain treats foreign citizens.

    281. CameronB Brodie says:

      schrodingers cat
      If you are simply going to make things up about me, there’s not much point. You obviously think you know it all, and want everyone to accept you at face value. My head simply doesn’t zip at the back though, so I’ll leave you to it and trust the readers to decide who’s convincing.

      What is the International Rule of Law?

    282. schrodingers cat says:

      jfngw says:

      In the end if we can’t poll more than 50% for independence parties at the next election then we are pretty much struggling anyway,

      aint that a truth, however, for the first time we are seeing consistent polls showing support for yes and the snp at +50%

      that is a comforting stat and gives hope for the immediate future. what will happen to that figure on the 1st jan 2021? i think it will rise even further, not by much but perhaps enough to convince nicola to make he 2021 a plebicite on indy.

      at that point, the anti nicola, anti snp and anti CWD brigade will get short shift from the yes movement. thats why the isp will go the same way as rise

    283. schrodingers cat says:


      make up stuff about you? dont flatter yourself, you’re tedious enough without inventing any more of you


    284. Capella says:

      @ SC – sorry to interrupt your private war with CBB but – are you pro CWD then? Just wondering. I expect that the media will highlight the CWD faction within the SNP so that women voters will not vote for men in their toilets. Do you think this unlikely?

    285. CameronB Brodie says:

      schrodingers cat
      “dont flatter yourself, you’re tedious enough without inventing any more of you”

      I think you’re aversion to ethical reason and hostility to the law, kind of proves my point. 😉

      Visceral Values:
      Aurel Kolnai on Disgust

    286. callmedave says:

      Update for the total: Gave up on the BBC.

      N. Ireland……..00…….Total……551….BBC
      UK………….today……155 BBC……Total….43575 SUN.

      BBC has no ‘England only’ corona numbers again back to normal.

    287. schrodingers cat says:


      i couldnt care either way, it isnt my bag.

      but the anti CWD brigade are doing a great job of destroying the yes movement just when we are in sight of the winning line

      the point about indy list parties is winging voters trust… not CWD’s

      snp policy is decided at conference by the members, if it is as big an issue as folk say, the policy will be defeated at conference. problem solved

    288. Bob Mack says:

      @Schrodingers Cat,

      If it ever gets to Conference. I would imagine not.

    289. schrodingers cat says:

      sorry to interrupt your private war with CBB

      nah, cameron is just a verbal punch bag today, im sure it just rolls off him

      i doubt he understands very much either way

    290. schrodingers cat says:

      Bob Mack says:
      30 June, 2020 at 5:07 pm
      @Schrodingers Cat,

      If it ever gets to Conference. I would imagine not.

      possibly, tell you what, if it ever does ill vote against it. whatever it is exactly.

      everyone happy now? 🙂

      great stuff, how about we all now hold hands and try to contact the living eh?

    291. CameronB Brodie says:

      schrodingers cat
      If I don’t understand this stuff, how am I able to link to relevant and credibly sourced material, at the relevant point of the discussion? You’re guff simply isn’t powerful enough, to penetrate deep enough to have long-term effect. You are playing politics, while I’m trying to support something more substantial.

    292. Bob Mack says:

      @Schrodingers Cat,

      Ditto. I cannot find your SNP Nirvanna myself,but ho hum.

    293. schrodingers cat says:

      i can, if you wish cameron, write an app for you which would copy and paste your hyperlinks, you know, a simple one 🙂

    294. schrodingers cat says:

      Bob Mack says:

      Ditto. I cannot find your SNP Nirvanna myself,

      the snp’s nirvanna is independence, that you cant see it, even tho’ its closer now than ever before, is why you fail ?

    295. dakk says:

      Thanks to Schrodingers Cat.

      This site badly needed that.

      The trans stuff is killing it.

    296. Capella says:

      @ SC – I would say the opposite is the case. It is Wokus Dei who lob a hand grenade into the party whenever things become interesting. That looks like the purpose of these entryists.

      Some are just kind hearted people who want everybody to be happy. Some are useful idiots who swallow any dogma that makes them feel edgy. But there is a hard core of determined individuals who have highjacked the party and mean to get their way i.e. SelfID on the statute book.

      These people are not interested in independence. They may be actively opposed to it. In fact, now that the Tories are in power for years they are better off lodging in a devolved government, like cuckoos in the nest, feeding off the kindness of the members who are largely unaware of their existence. For the moment. IMO.

    297. CameronB Brodie says:

      schrodingers cat
      So your technical skills are valid while mine aren’t. That’s not a particularly democratic position to take. Just saying. 😉

    298. schrodingers cat says:


      sorry mate, i couldnt care, my focus is independence, same as the vast majority in the yes movement. CWD’s is only a world famous issue in the heads of the delusional. they could always join rise, i hear they are looking for candidates

    299. schrodingers cat says:

      you have technical skills Cameron?

      jeezo, who wad a’ thunk it eh, they long winter nights must just fly by eh

      bear in mind, being able to fart in perfect timing to oor faither who art in hiven, doesnt technically count as a skill Cameron 🙂

    300. schrodingers cat says:

      Wokus Dei?? ffs gie yersel a shake man

    301. Bob Mack says:


      If you can see Independence on the horizon, you must have your own equivalent of the Hubble telescope.

      The SNP are currently avoiding it like the plague, and in fact have been for some time.

    302. Capella says:

      @ SC – I do hope you are right. But I fear you are wrong. Come a campaign the MSM can flood the public with scary stories. To get independence you may need to win a a vote. Alienating 52% of the electorate doesn’t seem to me to be a clever tactic.

    303. CameronB Brodie says:

      schrodingers cat
      If I were you, I wouldn’t be showing of my narrow interpretation of what democracy looks like, and who gets a say. It doesn’t paint a particularly attractive picture of an independent Scotland.

      Anger, Hostility, Internalizing Negative Emotions, and Intimate Partner Violence Perpetration: A Meta-Analytic Review

    304. schrodingers cat says:


      what i see is support for indy creeping up and over the 50% mark. a prerequisite for indy. btw, you dont need a telescope to see this fact, freely available info on all social media platforms

      i’m sure others here would see it too if only they would stop glopping away over CWD’s on pornhub channel

    305. schrodingers cat says:


      i never said you or anyone else couldnt have their say. i merely pointed out that what you said was complete havers, but hey, fill yer boots mon ami

    306. Stuart MacKay says:


      The first thing cuckoo chicks do when they hatch is to push the competition/opposition out of the nest. I guess much like what is happening with Joana Cherry and Joan McAlpine.

    307. schrodingers cat says:


      The SNP are currently avoiding it like the plague, and in fact have been for some time.

      that’ll be because of the plague/corona virus ?

    308. Bob Mack says:


      Oh goody. Support for Indy is over 50%. Right. Where do I vote?

      Hold it. I’ve hit a problem. I have no opportunity to vote because the party that promises that opportunity has done absolutely zilch to give me that opportunity, but instead have asked me to rely on Boris capitulating to a Section 30 order ,,,, because of some unspecified reason.

      Now who looks ridiculous?

    309. schrodingers cat says:

      Capella says:
      Alienating 52% of the electorate doesn’t seem to me to be a clever tactic.

      i thought the same when it was proposed at conference that we keep the queen and would join nato, but yet here we are with support at 54%

    310. schrodingers cat says:

      you got a chance to vote in dec, and 45% supported the snp,

      while we are in the middle of a pandemic, you wont get a chance to vote. get over it.

      you will get a chance to vote at the earliest opportunity

    311. CameronB Brodie says:

      schrodingers ca
      Fair enough. Obviously I think you’re wrong to ignore a respect for the rule-of-law, but I’ve only got my training to guide me.

      Human Identity and Bioethics

    312. schrodingers cat says:

      the request for a s30 is not ,because of some unspecified reason, but because support for indy was less than 50%

      as it continues to creep on up above 50%, the need for a s30 reduces,

      the unionists can boycotte an indyref but will have no option but to participate in an election. we get to chose what manifesto we fight that election. if and when we win by a margin greater than 50% it can be argued there is no point in having another indyref

    313. schrodingers cat says:


      i have had training too, i studied moral and general philosophy at aberdeen uni, although i had a preference for the pre socratics 🙂

    314. CameronB Brodie says:

      schrodingers cat
      Fantastic. Good for you. But how does that enable you to support the development of sustainable communities?

      Understanding the Biological Bases of Political Orientations and Belief Systems

    315. schrodingers cat says:

      It doesn’t paint a particularly attractive picture of an independent Scotland.

      and your copy cut and paste picture is more appealing?

    316. Bob Mack says:


      Enlighten us then. When will that opportunity be?
      Manifesto pledges which mean nothing? Remember Indy was in the last manifesto. When Covid is over? That could be years away if no vaccine is found, and the latest swine flu in China is also on the rise for the next \simultaneous pandemic.I

      When is this going to happen? When Boris retires? When Westminster becomes magnanimous?

      You are kidding yourself. I cannot believe anybody still envisages an SNP Magician who will produce the Indy rabbit from a flat cap rather than a top hat.

      With regard to referendum opportunity we are truly rudderless and sailing round in circles after the mythical section 30.

      Like looking for Captain Kidds treasure in the Carribean.

    317. schrodingers cat says:

      how does that enable you to support the development of sustainable communities?

      pre socratics, or the sophists as they are commonly termed,

      I can support the development of sustainable communities by winning the argument 🙂

    318. CameronB Brodie says:

      schrodingers cat
      Let me know when you win one then. TA. 😉

    319. schrodingers cat says:

      Indy was in the last manifesto

      yes it was, but then covid happened. thats not nicola or the snp’s fault.

      the only person calling for a referendum in the middle of a pandemic is you

      thats why you are on your own, twisting in the wind

    320. schrodingers cat says:

      i doubt you would recognise when your beaten

      just keep on copy and pasting them links, you’re awfy guid at it. wot wie a’ yer trainin’ an the like 🙂

    321. Bob Mack says:

      To everybody on Wings.

      Schlesinger believes I am the only one calling for a referendum.

      Is he correct?

      After all the vote IF AGREED could take place next year rather than now. Or are you all prepared to wait indefinitely.

    322. jfngw says:

      This looks interesting, as suspected WM would probably hide the stats.

    323. CameronB Brodie says:

      Meanwhile Scotland is dragged out of the EU, with no prospect of any effective action to defend our human rights through recourse to international law. If you place parochial politics above the law, you end up in shite creek. Where we presently are.

    324. schrodingers cat says:

      I cannot believe anybody still envisages an SNP Magician who will produce the Indy rabbit from a flat cap rather than a top hat.

      then move over and let those who do believe take center stage. this is an indy supporting blog. if you dont believe it, there are plenty others, the labour hame blog could do with a few visitors

    325. twathater says:

      @ Capella 5.30pm & 5.49pm well said , this mystical 54% is obviously dependant on voters doing what they said they will do and being happy with the supposed policies which the SNP will put forward , but we all know that voters are a fickle bunch and any out there policies will frighten the horses

      It is one thing for SNP members to denigrate and dismiss the great unwashed but the previous 125,000 membership ( current figures unknown and unpublished ) unfortunately require the votes of those great unwashed to secure governance

      And as Capella and others have posted numerous times our great MSM are waiting with bated breath to UNLEASH publicly the CWD proposals and the NEW HATE CRIME BILL which they will take great delight in exposing the true impact on females of all ages being subjected to men with penises being allowed to frequent changing rooms and women’s toilets unrestricted

      But it is okay to ignore and dismiss these non members who post about the impact these lunatic proposals will have on our quest for independence , because you know the SNP are polling at 54% and naebody but us shit stirrers care about these things

    326. Joseph says:


      As others have pointed out,,, you don’t half talk some shite.

    327. schrodingers cat says:

      as far as international law is concerned, it backs the ECHR position

      scotland cannot remain, neither can it rejoin. it must join as a completly new entity under s49. this will be the case whether we have the indyref2 today as boab is calling for or after jan 1st when we officially leave

    328. Bob Mack says:


      Are you Peter Murell. ?

      If I ever go to court I wAnt you on my jury. You remain insightless to evidence.

      Then this little gem. “This is an Indy supporting blog” Do tell.

      I’m calling for Indy whilst you are prepared to pass the time reading the Encyclopedia Brittanica whilst your waiting.

    329. CameronB Brodie says:

      schrodingers cat
      You are really are full of yourself. Away and learn some legal philosophy and stuff, and start providing justification to your argument.

      Natural Law and Customary Law

    330. schrodingers cat says:

      Bob Mack says:

      To everybody on Wings…………..

      no one supports calling indyref2 in the middle of a pandemic

    331. schrodingers cat says:

      here cam

      does yer natural law party still do the flying yoga stuff?

    332. CameronB Brodie says:

      No one is defending Scotland’s legal identity from authoritarian English/British nationalism.

      International Encyclopedia of the Social & Behavioral Sciences, 2001
      Law of Nations

    333. Socrates MacSporran says:

      Schrodingers cat

      If I am allowed to post on your blog today, can I just add to my earlier post: You suggest there is no mechanism which would allow an Independent Scotland – even if we were to get a severance agreement with the rump UK before Brexit becomes officially ratified – to remain within the EU, or to rejoin without going through a SEction 49 application process.

      I would disagree – in politics, anything is possible, if the will is there. Therefore, if we wanted to remain members, and (as they surely would, I like to think) the EU wante us inside the tent, it would happen.

      The fact it would be a giant one or two-fingered salute to England would be a mutually-acceptable bonus.

      Don’t write it off. I accept, it would take an amazing turn of events from where we currently are, but, never say never.


      You mention any sign of Nicola Sturgeon showing a lack of enthusiasm for Independence. I am sure she remains pro-independence, but, she must be placed as a member of the “gradualist” faction within the SNP. Given the balls-up dear BoJo and his right-wing English Nationalists are making of things – then I can see the point of her slow and steady gradualism.

      But, for all the good things the Scottish Government is doing, particularly around Covid-19, and more-particularly when compared to the mess BoJo & Co are making down south, amny of us would still prefer to see the Independence fight being further up her agenda.

      We are never going to get a Section 30 agreement, now both the Tories and Labour know the Union is dead. They will cling-o0n for as long as they can.

      We need to stop playing by their rules and move things forward. Difficult though this might be.

      But, as I said above, politics is the art of the possible and, where there’s a will, there’s a way. Let’s get on with it.

    334. schrodingers cat says:

      Socrates MacSporran says:
      I would disagree – in politics, anything is possible, if the will is there. Therefore, if we wanted to remain members, and (as they surely would, I like to think) the EU wante us inside the tent, it would happen.

      that’s true, but until we actually declare our independence with wm consent, they will maintain their position of us joining as a new entity under s49

      that’s politics

    335. Bob Mack says:


      I do. I think you will find other countries have had elections during this pandemic.No?

      According to you we might as well not vote in 2021 if no vaccine is forthcoming. What legislation exists to allow MSPs to retain their seats possibly for months of years after the due date? None I know of.

      No MSPs in Holyrood. Great opportunity for Boris to flex his Henry 8 laws.

      No ,Boris wouldn’t do such a thing would he?

    336. CameronB Brodie says:

      schrodingers cat
      Natural law sits at the core of the principle of universality, so it might help if you stopped telling and start learning.

      Max Planck Encyclopedia of Public International Law
      Natural Law and Justice

      1 Natural law – ius naturale – has during the entire history of legal science occupied a central place in terms of understanding the nature of law in general and international law in particular.

      The issues of its essence, origin, scope, and interaction with positive law are essential in considering whether it has its place in the international legal system and can be the legitimate object of the study of international law (Legal Positivism). The concept of natural law refers to norms and principles deducible from nature, reason, or the idea of justice. In this last… .

    337. schrodingers cat says:

      The fact it would be a giant one or two-fingered salute to England would be a mutually-acceptable bonus.

      yes, but until the transition ends and negotiations cease on jan 1st, the eu wont antagonise the uk. the eu wants a deal, they will be damaged by a hard brexit too

    338. schrodingers cat says:

      Bob Mack says:

      I do. I think you will find other countries have had elections during this pandemic.No?

      fine, but i dont know anyone who wants to call indyref2 in the middle of the pandemic. our advantage of having an army of footsoldiers to deliver leaflets, canvas and demonstrate would be curtailed. it would also be unpopular with both yes and no voters

      therefore, it has been decided by the snp that we wait until the immediate emergency is over.

      i support this position.

      when the pandemic is over is uncertain, but many countries are now back to a semblance of normality. i see no reason to think scotland wont also be by nov/dec

    339. schrodingers cat says:

      Bob Mack says:
      I do.

      the reply to fellow wingers to support your call for indyref2 to be held in the middle of a pandemic seems to have fallen on deaf ears

    340. schrodingers cat says:


      do you still do the yogic flying stuff

      i think its a real vote winner 🙂

    341. Bob Mack says:


      It’s early days. If no Wingers are prepared to stand up and say they want an Indyref as soon as possible then I have absolutely no idea why they are here, other than like yourself ,to prop up the SNP as a viable vehicle to Indy.

      I think that horse has already bolted.

    342. schrodingers cat says:

      Socrates MacSporran says:
      If I am allowed to post on your blog today,

      its a free country 🙂

      i very rarely post here these days but after seening lots of folk complaining about the quality of discussion btl, i decided to come on today and lower the tone a bit 🙂

    343. CameronB Brodie says:

      schrodingers cat
      I understand the law, where as you don’t. Subsequently, I’m better placed to defend democracy from those who disrespect the rule-of-law. Simples.

      An Elementary Approach to the Rule of Law

    344. schrodingers cat says:


      ah… asap rather than in the middle of the pandemic. thats an improvement. so when is asap?

    345. Bob Mack says:


      Well done. You suceeded admirably.

    346. schrodingers cat says:

      CameronB Brodie says:

      I understand the law, where as you don’t.

      as i pointed out earlier, people who believe in morality, ethics and other objective truths, if you disagree with them, it isnt because of something as trivial as a difference of opinion. you are merely wrong


    347. schrodingers cat says:

      gee, sucks… thanks boab 🙂

    348. Bob Mack says:


      Nicola said today the virus is almost nullified in ScotlanI the Scottish people don’t want to vote that’s up to them,but let me tell you, the shops where I live are open to business and are busy,as are the roads

      Maybe the people believe the virus only lives in polling booths.

    349. jfngw says:

      It would seem Jackson ‘Show me the Monet’ Carlaw and Richard somebody are supportive of the Leicester lockdown but demand that Scots must pay with their lives to maintain their British Nationalist dream.

      If you made either of these First Minister there is a good chance they will make you pay with your life to validate your ‘Britishness’.

    350. twathater says:

      Bob Mack I want a ref ASAP or preferably Breeks proposal , what I don’t want is a party of seat warmers taking VOTERS for granted ,SNP members can support NS to eternity for all I care

    351. Capella says:

      @ Socrates MacSporran – NS has made it crystal clear in her daily briefings that she is not going to play politics during the Covid 19 crisis. That puts her firmly on the moral high ground and distinguishes her from the bumbling idiots in Westminster. It would be idiotic to campaign during a pandemic.

      But if the virus is contained then a campaign in 2021 is viable. I agree that it is very frustrating to not already be independent. But that is because people voted NO 6 years ago. I don’t want that to happen again and I imagine neither does Nicola Sturgeon.

    352. schrodingers cat says:


      you know the SNP are polling at 54% and naebody but us shit stirrers care about these things

      well presumably not the 54% who presently back the snp and indy?

    353. schrodingers cat says:


      when is asap???

    354. schrodingers cat says:

      Maybe the people believe the virus only lives in polling booths.

      are you confusing the virus with the bogeyman?

    355. CameronB Brodie says:

      schrodingers cat
      Are you being deliberately obtuse? Democracy can’t exist without a respect for the rule-of-law, which can’t exist without a respect for natural law.


    356. jfngw says:

      Boris Johnson’s ‘New Deal’ is in fact just the same deal and more austerity but renamed ‘build build build’. I assume this is an instruction to undertakers as they intend to top the previous austerity target.

    357. dakk says:

      jfngw says:
      30 June, 2020 at 6:22 pm
      This looks interesting, as suspected WM would probably hide the stats.’


      Recall about a month ago they slipped in an additional 490 odd deaths they said happened way back in March.

      They called them Pillar2 deaths.

      Allowed them to keep the’ official’deaths below the psychological 1000/day mark at the time.

      Haven’t seen any Pillar2 deaths reported since,funny that.

    358. Bob Mack says:


      Now your being personal. You want to trade insults? Bad mood day?

      Your here to defend the SNP. I think you are ambivalent about Indy. No fervour. Either that ,or you are SNP hardcore. Defend the party regardless of broken promises. It won’t work.

      I promised the SNP nothing but my money and my time and my vote in return for the chance of Indy. I kept my side of the bargain. They have not kept theirs. The end.

    359. schrodingers cat says:


      poor undertakers, they’re a’ready oot the door

    360. schrodingers cat says:

      Maybe the people believe the virus only lives in polling booths.

      i wasnt insulting you. you would know if i was, believe me.

      you were being facetious and sarcastic, i have every right to reply in kind.

      thems the rules of debate?

    361. Bob Mack says:


      Then are the rules. Game on.

    362. schrodingers cat says:

      I kept my side of the bargain. They have not kept theirs. The end.

      even when the grand ol’ duke of york marched ’em up to the top of the hill, there were those who quit half way up.

      no matter, im sure we will meet up again when we are coming down

    363. schrodingers cat says:

      Then are the rules. Game on.

      i’m sure this makes sense and means something to someone somewhere….

    364. Brian Doonthetoon says:

      Hi schrodingers cat at 6:43 pm.

      You typed,
      “that’s true, but until we actually declare our independence with wm consent”

      If, for the next Holyrood election (whenever it takes place) pro-indy parties have in their manifestos that a a majority of seats and votes for pro-indy parties is a mandate to declare independence then, under international protocol, Scotland does not need ‘permission’ from Westminster – it’s what other nations do, in respect of the demonstrated will of the Scottish people. Umpteen countries have become independent without ‘permission’ from Westminster.

      Onnyhoo, I’ve been enjoying the ‘manflirting’ going on by the Wingers on either side of the Firth of Tay today. 🙂

      The change in tack btl in the past few hours, has prompted me to paste here, a couple of comments I posted on another SNP member’s Facebook page, yesterday and today.

      What gets me is that someone goes to the bother of giving an example of how the list vote works, for peeps who express an ignorance of how it works, and it goes right over their heads, unread.
      I’m an SNP member. Next year, I will be voting for Joe Fitzpatrick. If I vote for the SNP as a party in the regional vote, that vote will, on current opinion polling, be wasted.
      I will keep my regional vote powder dry until then and see how things are looking on polling day.
      If that makes me a (tractor-ed), so be it.


      Yeah, voter complacency… or…
      At the 2015 GE, the SNP had 1,454,436 votes out of a total of 2,910,465.
      At the 2017 GE, the SNP vote dropped to 977,569 but the total also dropped to 2,649,695. So the SNP vote dropped by 476,867, while the total fell by only 260,770.
      Did the SNP lose a large chunk of votes (lent by Yessers?), because there was nothing in the SNP’s manifesto regarding independence or indyref2? It was The Tories who were banging on about “no to indyref2”. How did their votes compare?
      In 2015, they got 434,097.
      In 2017, they got 757,949.
      So they increased their vote by 323,852.
      Interestingly, the SNP vote was down by 13.1%, while the Tories were up by 13.7%.
      Labour was
      2015 – 707,147
      2017 – 717,007.
      So it could be surmised that the Tories motivated the unionists to get out and vote with their “no to indyref2”, while the SNP disillusioned the YES vote by not mentioning indyref2 and making it all about brexit.
      A lot of the 2015 voters, whom the SNP had attracted post indyref, didn’t bother to vote in 2017, while the unionist vote was energised by the Tories, Labour staying much the same as 2015.
      The SNP is going to have to be very careful with the manifesto for next year, lest the YES vote is disillusioned again. Anyone for another mandate?

      BTW: where I mentioned “What gets me is that someone goes to the bother of giving an example of how the list vote works, for peeps who express an ignorance of how it works, and it goes right over their heads, unread” –

      I’ve pasted this into ‘off-topic’ if you want to have a look…

    365. schrodingers cat says:

      novelle idea

      Pete Wishart: We should ask EU to sanction indyref2 if Tories refuse

    366. Bob Mack says:


      We may well meet up, but it will be me coming back down the Hill to give you a piggy back up to the top. Won’t be the first time I have done that.

      You stay at the bottom route planning whilst the rest of us forge ahead.

    367. CameronB Brodie says:

      You make big claims to making sense, but I’ve seen very little substantive evidence. I’m not a member of the SNP, but hope I have the right to point out that they appear to be making a total back-to-front of things?

      Human rights and societies in
      transition: Causes, consequences,

    368. CameronB Brodie says:

      Last one to schrodingers cat , obvs. 🙂

    369. Bob Mack says:

      What an utterly ridiculous position for SC to take. People all over the world are literally dying for their beliefs. Not by Covid but by bullets and violence.

      Somehow though the Scots cannot afford to go for two minutes to a polling station even though they go to shops and beaches and parks for hours on end. The imbeciles are incapable of obeying a 2 metre rule whilst waiting to vote ,even though they do in the shops. Is that right?

      Streuth. What further fantasies will people create to protect the SNP power trip..

    370. CameronB Brodie says:

      Brian Doonthetoon @7:35pm
      Thanks, I was going to point out we don’t need Westminster’s permission to emancipate ourselves, if nobody else did. 😉

    371. schrodingers cat says:


      my experience of the ge2017, fwiw, on the doorstep, even snp members and voters didnt want to hear about indyref2, they were too concerned about what brexit would mean

      anecdotal I know, but this was the general attitude met by all of us who canvased

      that was why nicola took it off the table, correctly in my opinion.

      nicolas promise to give the scots a voting choice when we knew what brexit meant has been thwarted by wm dithering, ignoring dead lines obfuscating about what the deal they actually had done, 2 ge’s and now the virus

      the unionists were pinning their hopes on delaying indyref2 until the he in 2021. they may have succeeded but at what cost? when they look at the 54% support for snp and indy in the polls they are terrified

      the faceoff between holyrood and westminster was never avoidable, it was always going to happen

      what will wm do? its choices are limited. do they give in? polls show a majority of tories now want an indy england. or do they shut down holyrood and park tanks in george square?

      its easy to see how the prospect of this faceoff is getting to some wingers btl. their wavering support is appreciated 🙂

    372. Bob Mack says:


      Are you a betting man? I will wager £100 that Holyrood and the SNP will never,ever face off with Westminster.

      Charity of your choice.

    373. schrodingers cat says:


      its true no one needs consent to hold an advisory referendum anywhere in the uk

      i wasnt suggesting we did

      i was merely pointing out that it is preferable because without wm consent to scotlands independence, many countries wont acknowledge us. trump? spain? most eu countries have issues with groups wanting to break away from their present inclusion in eu states

      scottish independence will be a real boost to eg, catalunia, friesland, bayern, to name but a few

    374. Brian Doonthetoon says:

      At 7:35 pm , I offered,

      Apologies – I posted the wrong version. The correct version is at:-

    375. CameronB Brodie says:

      schrodingers cat
      I get it. You’re a political activist, and think your interface with the electorate informs you sufficiently to tell the rest of us what’s what. Well sorry, but Scotland needs better., IMHO.


    376. schrodingers cat says:

      Bob Mack says:
      it will be me coming back down the Hill to give you a piggy back up to the top. Won’t be the first time I have done that.
      You stay at the bottom route planning whilst the rest of us forge ahead.

      aye sure and when the face off happens and if bojo parks tanks on your lawn, i’ll come round and teach you how to shoot a rifle, cos by then, thats we will have left

    377. schrodingers cat says:

      Bob Mack says:
      I will wager £100 that Holyrood and the SNP will never,ever face off with Westminster

      if we elect an snp government with 50%+ of the vote on a single manifesto commitment to an indy scotland.

      it wont be nicola or the snp facing off against wm, it will be us

      that is the face off that cannot be avoided

      what will you do then? bleed all over boris?

    378. schrodingers cat says:


      my experience informs my opinion, in your HO, am i allowed an opinion?


    379. Brian Doonthetoon says:

      Hi schrodingers cat at 7:58 pm.

      You typed,
      “its true no one needs consent to hold an advisory referendum anywhere in the uk
      i wasnt suggesting we did”

      Whoah there pardner! I never mentioned the ‘referendum’ word. What I typed was,

      “If, for the next Holyrood election (whenever it takes place) pro-indy parties have in their manifestos that a a majority of seats and votes for pro-indy parties is a mandate to declare independence then, under international protocol, Scotland does not need ‘permission’ from Westminster – it’s what other nations do, in respect of the demonstrated will of the Scottish people. Umpteen countries have become independent without ‘permission’ from Westminster.”

    380. Bob Mack says:


      There already has been units stationed in Scotland above and beyond the usual forces.

      The hill your willing to die on needs Westminster permission. Section 30, which Nicola has told you time and time and time again.

      That’s your option.

      Mine’s is like Breeks. Force the issue in the courts of the land. Use the plebiscite you were already given at the election.
      Just do SOMETHING. The SNP motto is becoming “We delay whilst you pray”

    381. Joseph says:

      When the Boris slogan today said :

      “Build Build Build”

      I think it was referring to the UK debt mountain.

      Because that is about the only thing that will be going up in the UK anytime soon.

    382. CameronB Brodie says:

      schrodingers cat
      I’m pretty sure Brian Doonthetoon has just burst your bubble. 😉

    383. Dan says:

      Covid number being fudged by UK Government… quelle surprise…

    384. Andy Ellis says:

      @ SC 7.58pm

      I think you’re exaggerating. Other than Catalonia and maybe the Basques there aren’t that many other European regions with realistic shots at self determination. Bavarian indy is very much the preserve of a tiny minority right now, and the party is pretty far right even by Bavarian standards.

      You’re right that international recognition depends on a clear result, which could as easily be via plebiscitary election as referendum (in fact the former is a far more common route historically), but wrong that there wouldn’t be considerable support for Scotland now – probably much more so than in 2014. Brexit has made the UK much less popular and important than it was: many countries will take pleasure in sticking it to the brexshitters, while others are already pretty well disposed. Even those who dislike the the hassle involved or the potential example like Spain won’t be in a position to do much. They should however be very worried about Scottish support for legitimate Catalan rights.

    385. Bob Mack says:

      Imagine if the SNP had actually been sincere about not accepting being removed from Europe. Imagine.

      Had they done anything about it, we would be looking today at an impending referendum with the polls supporting Indy as they appear to be.

      Defeat snatched from the jaws of victory yet again.

    386. Joseph says:

      Radio Clyde news told us today that Boris said Scotland could not have survived the Covid19 pandemic without the help of Westminster.

      And that Boris also announced massive infrastructure spending for the whole of the UK.

      Which would probably mean the Scotland to N Ireland bridge project could still go ahead.

      Now I listened to Boris and never heard any such thing. (Unless I missed it)

      What this Fake News from Radio Clyde does show us is that they will not be coming down on the side of any campaign for an independent Scotland any time soon.

      Very much the opposite.

    387. schrodingers cat says:


      the point remains the same whether we declare indy or hold a referendum

      wm consent means other countries will accept our new indy status without question

      this is preferable and with present polls showing a majority of tory voters now backing an indy england, it isnt impossible.

      but what we do if such a situation arises when a majority vote in a democratic plebecite for indy and it is refused is a situation we may yet face.

      i would argue civil disobedience is a prefered course of action in the 1st instance, what happens after will depend on boris’s actions

      but dont count on the eu or the un for help. we will need to do this ourselves, sinn fein

    388. schrodingers cat says:

      Andy Ellis


      but after the eu’s response to catalunia and having served and worn the blue beret of un military forces i have good reason to be sceptical of their response

      no, we are on our own here

    389. jfngw says:

      @Andy Ellis

      The EU may be more accommodating to Scotland but I’m not so sure about USA, Russia and China. International politics is a dirty business and those countries will look to see how they can use it to their advantage either way.

      The USA almost certainly will want Scotland and its nuclear weapons still based here, Chine will see it as a point of principle over HK and if England can still on Scotland they can own HK. Not sure about Russia, it depends if they see a breakaway as a threat. International politics is never about whether they like you or not.

    390. schrodingers cat says:

      CameronB Brodie says:
      I’m pretty sure Brian Doonthetoon has just burst your bubble. ?

      did he?

      maybe you could ask him for some advice. my guess is he would tell you to stop posting reams of hyperlinks to articles no one reads

    391. CameronB Brodie says:

      schrodingers cat
      “no, we are on our own here”

      No we aren’t, and I’d appreciate it if you’d hold your bias in check, and stop undermining a respect for the international legal order and the rule of law.

      Harvard Journal of Law & Public Policy – Summer, 1997 – 20 Harv. J.L. & Pub. Pol’y 655

    392. Andy Ellis says:

      @SC 8.36pm

      The EU’s response to Catalonia was (and remains) shameful, but was entirely predictable given their different circumstances. I agree we have to do this on our own, but I still see plebiscitary elections as the most logical step to push for. – certainly preferable to civil disobedience.

      International recognition is just as likely for a Yes following elections: what the international community cares about is that it’s a decisive result to a clear question (which the Catalans couldn’t demonstrate). In our case, if Westminster tried not to recognise a positive result from plebiscitary elections they might be in for an unpleasant surprise when folk ignore them.

    393. Dogbiscuit says:

      Hairy Black is a dangerous fanatic.

    394. jfngw says:

      If we win a plebiscite election with over 50% of the vote it is almost certain Westminster will reject it, England believes it owns us are they are never keen to give up their possessions. We at that point are in the same position as Ireland just over 100 years ago and Westminster will not hesitate to send in the military, in fact i believe they will relish the thought (crush those rebellious Scots is still in their mentality).

      What do we do then, Westminster believes the Scots are ultimately a timid race and will not resist?

    395. twathater says:

      Shittingers cat , as usual coming away with yer holier than thou crud , let’s see what happens to the great 54% NS support when the MSM get round to exposing the woke progressiveness that is currently destroying your party

      The great unwashed will revolt against saint nicola

    396. schrodingers cat says:


      you’re within your rights to hope the international community step in to prevent any illegal, immoral or unfair action against us soveriegn scots. i hope they do too

      i’m just not planning on it. scotland is only world famous in scotland. better to plan for this not to happen and be pleasantly surprised if it does

      i dare say some countries might recognise us but bojo will probably ignore them

      no, we will have to do this ourselves

    397. schrodingers cat says:

      I still see plebiscitary elections as the most logical step to push for. – certainly preferable to civil disobedience.


      but i was talking about what action we may be forced down if (thats a big if) bojo refuses to accept the result of such a plebicite election

    398. Sinky says:


      The Holyrood Health and Sport Committee report, published today, featured widely in the Scottish media to suggest that the national system for the supply and demand of medicines was in a state of crisis. The committee is convened by Lewis MacDonald (Labour) and has a Unionist party majority of 5 to 4.

      It would be wrong to name the civil servant here.

      I have complained to him already about the choice of Professor Hugh Pennington, an anti-independence political activist, to give advice to the committee on the Scottish Government’s handling of the coronavirus epidemic in Scotland. I’ve had no answer.

      I wrote to the secretary of the committee today to protest the misrepresentation of the evidence presented in the executive summary and the potential that gave for media to inaccurately characterise it as having serious problems when the evidence is not there for that view.

    399. Andy Ellis says:


      The Russians will doubtless see it as a win. I doubt the US will be anti if it actually looks like happening. Most US military figures are equivocal about UK & French nukes: they’d much prefer we spent the £ on conventional forces. I doubt China sees much congruity between Scotland and HK – they do what they want as Tibet, Taiwan & the Uighurs show.

      I accept for most it isn’t about whether they like us or the concept that much, but I reckon we have more support in EU (& probably US, Canada, Australia, NZ?) than many folk realise, which is likely more important. International recognition hinges more on getting a good number of states to recognise you: Scotland is far more likely to achieve that than many other recent cases like Kosovo, Montenegro, Macedonia etc which though problematic have managed to do it.

    400. Dogbiscuit says:

      NS making political gay while we are locked up so she does ‘play politics’ with covid.
      Capella employs much empty political rhetoric .Nicola Sturgeons arse is too big too cover.

    401. CameronB Brodie says:

      schrodingers cat
      You’ve got a habit of telling me what’s what. I simply want the Scottish government to remember its’ duty of care is to Scotland’s public, and not British constitutional law and convention.

      International law is superior to national law, and I simply want the SNP to recognise this fact. It would enable them to start defending Scotland from constitutional fascism. Though the way the Scottish government is lining itself up to transom Scots law and the justice system, I’m starting to wonder if they actually understand how to support democracy.

    402. Dogbiscuit says:

      NS making political hay while we are locked up so she does ‘play politics’ with covid.
      Capella employs much empty political rhetoric .Nicola Sturgeons arse is too big too cover.

    403. Andy Ellis says:

      @SC 9.00pm

      In that case, direct action would be the only (and legitimate) course. I have my doubts it’d come to it. The britnats don’t have the balls for it, and most little Englanders by that stage would in all likelihood be voting to expel us or declare their own indy.

      In the end of course, you are correct: one doesn’t ask for independence once takes it.

    404. jfngw says:

      @Andy Ellis

      I admire your optimism, I will retain my scepticism, it’s served me well over the years.

      Also, not a direct reply to you Andy but I don’t want to add another post, anyone that believes Westminster would have accepted a Yes vote in 2014 is deceiving themselves. They would have immediately moved into a propaganda war to overturn the vote, using all their allies. That’s why I believe USA will side with England , they did in 2014, what’s changed to alter their opinion, Trump hates the SNP, he would love to dislodge them, for his own personal advantage I hasten to add.

    405. Brian Doonthetoon says:

      Dogbiscuit – SIT!

    406. Sarah says:

      @ Mike cassidy 3.57: that was the twitter thread I meant. Thank you!!

    407. Joe says:

      RE:indy ref

      They only agreed to the last one because they thought it was no contest. They will only ever agree to another when they know its slanted in their favour. Sorry, but they shat themselves big time on the last one. A fair 50/50 ref is never coming our way again i suspect

    408. jfngw says:


      I see you construct you comments the same way David Bowie wrote his lyrics in the 70’s.

    409. schrodingers cat says:

      @boabyhater says:

      Shittingers cat

      lol, every……. a….. gem

      the potential downfall of the snp and the indy movement seems to exite you, are you sure you are on the right blog? wouldnt you be happier on pornhub glopping over videos of chiks with diks ?

    410. cynicalHighlander says:

      Your a total bore schrodingers cat as you make bizarre assumptions that all laws are other peoples opinions, what a buffoon.

      Law of Nature and Law of Physics all other peoples opinions, lol.

    411. Ottomanboi says:

      Finland broke away from Russia in the aftermath of the Bolshevik revolution! as did Poland.
      WW1 precipitated the break up of Austria-Hungary creating the new states of Czechoslovakia and Yugoslavia. The contraction of Ottoman rule in Europe was conducive to the creation of Greece, Bulgaria and Romania. The gradual collapse of the British empire produced Ireland, India, Nigeria etc. The end of the Soviet system gave us Armenia, Azerbaijan, Georgia, Byelorus, Ukraine, the Baltic states and the central Asian ‘Stans’.
      I do wonder what traumatic event will propel Scotland to freedom? The culture wars perhaps?

    412. Sarah says:

      @ Gary45% at 4.45: you don’t need to do Twitter to read them – I’m not on twitter either.

      And you are right that it is sad that these kind of people think the way they do about other countries. I blame the cynical manipulation of public opinion by the people who now are the British governing party. It is terrifying how successful they have been and continue to be.

    413. Dan says:

      You’ve been busy on here today with your CWDs postings which come across as stating it’s pretty much a non issue.

      Really? The owner of the very blog you are currently posting on has had his twitter accounts targeted and shutdown because of the activists pushing this matter.

      Those same activists are continuing to hound Joanna Cherry, and got Neil Hanvey de-selected a week before the Dec 2019 General Election, and chased Denise Findlay.

      Aye, it’s a non issue richt enough…

    414. Bob Mack says:


      Not my comment I’m afraid! You getting tired?

    415. schrodingers cat says:

      schrodingers cat as you make bizarre assumptions that all laws are other peoples opinions,

      no, i said morality and ethics are nothing more than opinion which change proportionally with peoples consensus of opinion, proof they are an illusions.

      laws merely reflect the change in peoples opinion, eg it is no longer illegal to be gay etc.

      when it comes to deciding which law is applicable, the authorities decide, ask craig murray.

      proof? if law was as easy as a b c, we wouldnt need juries, lawyers or judges or politicians for that matter. your watch would be more than capable of running the country

    416. schrodingers cat says:


      it wasnt directed at you, read it again with you glasses and with less wine

    417. Joseph says:

      Dog biscuit 9.09pm


      “Capella employs much empty political rhetoric .Nicola Sturgeons arse is too big to cover”.

      That’s Capella’s sweetheart you are talking about Dog,,, hahaha

      She does seem overly obsessed with Sturgeon.

      Every body to their own I suppose

      It’s a free world.

      And an extremely free world if you are in the SNP,,, anything seems to go.

    418. CameronB Brodie says:

      schrodingers cat
      Once again you are telling us what morality, ethics, and the law are, without actually providing any evidence to support your opinion. Who do you think you are, God?

      The idea of natural law and the moral content of economics

    419. Sinky says:

      Keeping an eye on the main prize, here is one for the undecideds.

      Scotland could eliminate the coronavirus – if it weren’t for England

      Scotland may be only weeks away from no new daily cases of coronavirus. As the nation gets close, cases from over the border will become a big problem.

      Read more:

    420. schrodingers cat says:

      Dan says:
      You’ve been busy on here today with your CWDs postings which come across as stating it’s pretty much a non issue.

      no, i said i couldnt care about the issue, mainly cos i prefer to spend my time concentrating on the issue of independence.

      I also dont think the voters spend much time thinking about either

    421. schrodingers cat says:

      oh no

      cam is part of the god squad, let me guess, a moonie right?

    422. schrodingers cat says:

      without actually providing any evidence to support your opinion

      i did provide proof, if morality was real, it would be unchanging. it does change, ergo it doesnt exist

    423. CameronB Brodie says:

      schrodingers cat
      You really need to give your arse a chance, as your opinion is more than mince, it’s dangerous.

      Natural Law and Modern Jurisprudence

    424. Bob Mack says:


      Ah, I see. You bit your boabies mixed up. You all for GRA then?

    425. defo says:

      Branch Davidian I think Cat.
      You must be tired!

    426. Bob Mack says:

      Correction,, got

    427. Joseph says:

      Join the SNP.

      The Party of free love.

      Whether you like men or women or men/women combined.

      It’s here for you.

      Contact N Murrell, Butt Hoose, Embra.

    428. schrodingers cat says:


      no, my point is that whether its those who support AND those who reject it are both distracting from the more important issue of independence. that and me from dissing cameron 🙂

    429. Joseph says:

      Would you admit to anybody that you were a member of the SNP?

      S N P
      e o r
      x. o

    430. Robert Graham says:

      Sinky 9’03

      got it Pal right on the money

      The baffling language used by the BBC and the hysterical statement from this committee promoted me to have a look at the make of this committee ,

      Miles Briggs ,Cole Hamilton , previously Annie Wells,and various other luminary unionist arse wipes , i wonder why 2 libdems when i think they only have 5 maybe 6 MSPs in total.

      Anyway its usual for any statement issued by any committee to have the agreement of the committee members , are the SNP members fkn dumb allowing this shite to be published wakey wakey

    431. jfngw says:


      You seem quit on top of this free love stuff, is it that multi-coloured coat of yours that’s maybe attracting them.

      I closed my eyes, drew back the curtain
      To see for certain what I thought I knew

    432. Joseph says:

      The SNP are now a throw back to the psychedelic era of the late sixties in America.

      An era of free love.

      Make Love Not War.


      You can just see wee Nicola running about Glasgow Green half naked, flowers in the hair, doped out of her skull, Joined by her loyal following of her He Men, She Men.

      And Capella of course.

    433. Dan says: at 10.18pm

      Ok, well you could possibly be a bit less dismissive towards those that do care and have concerns about the matter of Self ID and the very real potential of it being weaponised against the SNP or Indy cause as and when it could do most damage.

      Also, any chance you could use quotations or italics when you’re quoting folk as it’s a bit of pain trying to constantly work out the content of your posts. TIA

      Information re. using italics and bolding for anybody interested is simple and appears in bold below the last btl comment.
      NB. Use /i in end tag after the text to be italicised.

      Replace the i in the tags with b for bold, and s for score through.

    434. Morgatron says:

      I remember the days you could come on here for a bit of insightful knowledge a good discussion and a bit of banter with like-minded people , fuck sake Annie Wells twitter account makes for better reading these days and at least its funny.

    435. schrodingers cat says:


      jeezo, next you’ll be asking me to use capitals and full stops.

    436. Capella says:

      those who support AND those who reject it are both distracting from the more important issue of independence

      The last time I heard that kind of MCP entitlement was Stokely Charmichael’s, “The position of women in the civil rights movement is prone”.
      That ended women’s support and kicked off the Women’s Liberation Movement.

      There is no more important issue than women’s civil rights. IMHO

    437. CameronB Brodie says:

      schrodingers cat
      Did your fantastic education give you insight to this sort of stuff? You’re in no position to tell me what’s what, if not. 😉

      Phenomenology of the Human Person by Robert Sokolowski (review)

    438. schrodingers cat says:


      There is no more important issue than women’s civil rights. IMHO

      fine, its your right to prioritise what ever you think is most important

      just dont pretend to the wider yes movement that your intention is anything other than to attempt to use the indy movement as a vehicule to propel your own pet agenda

      you will have no more success than rise did.

    439. schrodingers cat says:


      everyone is entitled to an opinion, even you, regardless of how deluded

    440. CameronB Brodie says:

      schrodingers ca
      Your agenda appears to incorporate misogyny quite readily. Just saying.

    441. CameronB Brodie says:

      schrodingers cat
      Do you even understand what phenomenology is?

    442. schrodingers cat says:


      my agenda is independence

      yours is purile insults. thats all you have

    443. schrodingers cat says:

      Do you even understand what phenomenology is?

      yes, but feel free to post another hyperlink to an essay no one will read. its all you’re good at

    444. Dan says: at 11:09pm

      Do whatever you feel as is your wont. I was merely letting you know that for all the typing you do, adding just a few extra keystrokes would make life a lot easier for those following btl commentary.
      It might also give those reading the comments a positive impression that an individual who at least tries to use conventional clear communications methods might be worth paying more attention to than a bumbling buffoon.*

      *Admittedly I may be wildly off the mark with that assumption seeing as Scotland sometimes comes across as a real life live-streamed McMuppet Show.

    445. CameronB Brodie says:

      schrodingers cat
      No, that’s all you have. I’ve been busting my nads to provide evidence supporting my position. Which was recommended to me by a far more trustworthy source than you. Tit.

    446. schrodingers cat says:


      i was being flippant

      the lack of punctuation is just laziness on my part

    447. Capella says:

      a vehicule to propel your own pet agenda

      I see – so the fact that the definition of “woman” has been changed to mean “gender identity” in the Representation of Women on Public Boards so that ALL of the “women” could be transwomen i.e. men;

      or the change of “sex” in the 2021 Census to mean “gender identity” so that transwomen ie. men can lawfully answer the question with false information;

      or that Police Scotland have been recording crimes committed by transwomen as crimes committed by “women” since 2011 so that we now have a rise in r*pe and sexual assault committed by “women”;

      or that transwomen i.e. men can be housed in the women’s prison estate, even if they are guilty of sexual crimes, and that they commit those crimes while in prison, against women who have no means of escape;

      or that the YHA has said that transomwen i.e. men can sleep in the women’s dormitory and that, if a woman is unhappy about that then she can write to them 2 weeks in advance and request a separate sleeping space but, if that is not possible then she can’t use a youth hostel;

      or that transwomen i.e. men are entitled to compete in women’s sport in spite of the biological advantage of growing up with testosterone;

      Are not vehicles to promote somebody’s pet agenda?

      That’s just a brief resume BTW – there are many more examples. I haven’t even got into how children are manipulated. I’ll leave that for another day.

    448. John Digsby says:

      Socrates MacSporran

      You talk about ‘when Brexit is ratified.’ But it has already happened. We have already left – the UK is agreeing to follow EU rules for the rest of this year but is sat firmly outside already.

      Scotland will need to go Article 49 and apply to join as an outsider, whenever independence is achieved. So I’m with SC that there is no rush, nor great demand, to try and hold a ref in the middle of a pandemic- from the EU point of view, it’s no difference

    449. schrodingers cat says:

      you could possibly be a bit less dismissive towards those that do care and have concerns about the matter of Self ID

      i came on here today to deliberately disrupt both supporters and opponents of the gra legislation who have between them disrupted the discussion about independence we should have been having

      in precisely 14 mins, the window for any extension on our wthdrawl from the eu will close.

      folk care about that too dan

    450. Capella says:

      BTW women are 52% of the population. We ARE the “wider yes movement”.

    451. schrodingers cat says:


      i got as far as “I see – so the fact that the definition of “woman” has been changed to mean “gender identity”

      before i stopped reading

      it isnt my bag and i resent the indy movement being hijacked by people intent on pursuing their own pet projects.

      in 10 mins the eu deadline expires

      that is what the discussion btl today should have been about

      everyone who reads this thread is now dumber for reading your contribution

    452. Dan says:

      Looks like Jeggit’s recent suggestion has legs, and England has recently shown they’re brave and bold as fook and can punch above their weight on a crowded beach… even against an unseen virus…

      Maybe we’d get oor Independence quicker if Stu simply edited the name of this site to Wings Over England and we all went full on anti-jock btl…

      Just found out those bloody tartan skirt wearers get free prescriptions!”

      “Did you know those ginger haggismuncher’s kids get to go to University for free!”


    453. CameronB Brodie says:

      Despite claims to a philosophical background, the cat is a political activist, first and foremost. All fine and dandy, if his perspective wasn’t so dangerous. Not only does he not have a respect for the law, he’s also quite ignorant about the basics of democracy, IMHO.

      The Foundations of the Rule of Law

    454. schrodingers cat says:

      John Digsby

      exactly. im amazed how few people on here are aware of this simple fact

    455. Capella says:

      @ SC – I drew attention to the June 30th deadline a couple of weeks ago. But Stu felt it was irrelevant and nobody else had any opinion on it. Hence, there is no article about it and no comments. It’s not up to me to set the agenda on this blog.

    456. schrodingers cat says:

      Capella says:
      30 June, 2020 at 11:48 pm
      BTW women are 52% of the population. We ARE the “wider yes movement”.

      exactly my point capella. 54% of the voters support independence. your attempt to turn it into a feminist movement wont work

    457. jfngw says:


      According to the Scottish Referendum Study it was women in 2014 that swung it to No, 56.6% voted No, whereas 52.7% of men voted Yes. So in 2014 it was women who where the ‘wider No movement’.

    458. cynicalHighlander says:

      schrodingers cat you are Peter Murrell and I claim the prize.

    459. Dan says: at 11.46pm

      Wow, I wasn’t aware I’d lost my EU Citizenship. Thanks for letting me know…

      Jeezo, I take it you don’t wear an Alert Reader badge as you’ve obviously been skim reading posts to make an issue with those who are concerned about Self ID implications, and missed the hundreds of posts with folk expressing their utter dissatisfaction with Scotland losing it’s EU status against its expressed will.

    460. schrodingers cat says:

      It’s not up to me to set the agenda on this blog.

      this far down the blog you can talk about anything you want. you have a tongue in your head dont you?

      stu’s article made no reference to gra, thats your agenda and why you chose to comment about it.

      as i said, are you aware that the eu deadline for a negotiated trade deal expire 5 mins ago

      but feel free to waffle on about CWD’s

    461. schrodingers cat says:


      you wont lose your eu citizenship officially until the 1st jan.
      todays deadline concerned other issues, but you would know that if the btl was clogged up by inane posts by cam, the resident aspergers sufferer and i hate nicola snpbad trolls aided and abetted by the CWD’s brigade…

    462. schrodingers cat says:

      cynicalHighlander says:
      1 July, 2020 at 12:02 am
      schrodingers cat you are Peter Murrell and I claim the prize.

      thats the 2nd time you have posted that commment, it wasnt funny the first time so dont give up yer day job

    463. jfngw says:


      Not losing, lost, that ship has sailed. I railed about it at the time but possibly there was nothing that could be done. We were not members as the country of Scotland but as the country of Scotland as part of the UK.

      The question now is where do we go from here, there is just endless frustration if we are caught in a cycle of whinging about what is now past.

      I’m personally against these new bills (hate crime/GRA) but I’m not going to let it deflect me from independence. Bills can always be overturned, the window for independence may not be open permanently.

      Those that now state they are not going to vote SNP are potentially handing the parliament to the Tories, if you believe they will be benign then good luck.

    464. Capella says:

      @ SC – yes – i was aware of it on 9th June when I commented thus:

      How much worse could being in the UK get?

      Very much worse. If the UK leaves the jurisdiction of the EU on December 31st we will be subjected to US corporate pillaging with no protection. The SNP are currently pressing for an extension to the transition period. The deadline for this is at the end of June. I would expect a major shift in opinion after that.

      However, Stu poured cold water over this and nobody else took up the issue. Certainly not you.

      “I would expect a major shift in opinion after that.”

      Would ye, aye? Except that’s what we’ve been saying about pretty much every significant political development of the last six years – the Brexit vote, May refusing S30, Johnson becoming PM, Brexit actually happening, etc etc etc – and none of them have amounted to a thimbleful of cat piss.

    465. Dan says: at 12.13am

      What’s to say re. the EU as it became clear on the 31st January that Scotland was fucked with regard to our EU membership unless there was some cunning behind the scenes plan in place with regard to Article 49 or even 48 that us plebs aren’t aware of, and that justified Yon Blowhard’s “Scotland won’t be take out the EU against its will” gaseous emissions.

      We gave our elected politicians the job of doing something about protecting our EU membership, maybe have a go at those whom we empowered to represent us rather than us pissed off activists btl they appear to have let down.

      And I’ve posted several links to alternative matters today to stimulate discussion but you’ve not taken them up and continued to engage with GRA issues, so maybe take a look at yourself before condemning others of what you’re doing yourself.

    466. CameronB Brodie says:

      schrodingers cat
      I really don’t think you should carry on digging, as you don’t appear to respect, or even have a concern for, women’s rights.

      Husserl’s Phenomenology: A Textbook

      by Ronald McIntyre and David Woodruff Smith

      Intentionality is a central concept in philosophy of mind and in Husserl’s phenomenology. Indeed, Husserl calls intentionality the “fundamental property of consciousness” and the “principle theme of phenomenology”….

    467. schrodingers cat says:


      what do you expect ian blackford to do? petrol bomb wm? political rhetoric is exactly that, rhetoric

      we are where we because of the choices the majority of the people of scotland

      but take care dan, we are in the last act of this goat rodeo and very soon it may well be you who will be called to stand up and be counted

      we will see who’s the blowhard

    468. schrodingers cat says:


      i very rarely even read this blog let alone post here, mainly cos it has become an anti indy website infested by trolls sucking up to both anti and pro gra types, fuckin wokerati, get a fuckin grip

      but they have crossed the line so im back to to make their lives miserable


    469. schrodingers cat says:

      Those that now state they are not going to vote SNP are potentially handing the parliament to the Tories, if you believe they will be benign then good luck.

      but they argue they are the core of the yes movement, time they were exposed and sent packing

    470. Dan says: at 12.33am

      Ah, t’was just the old political rhetoric get out of jail card being played by slimy politicians.
      Heads up, most of the electorate ain’t that political and just want decent honest folk that say what they mean to represent us coz we dislike corruption and liars.

      And on that note with regard to the latter part of your post, any chance of stating what you actually mean rather than speaking in tongues? It reads like gibberish from a Chinese cracker, is it imparting wisdom, is it a threat fuck knows…

    471. Capella says:

      i very rarely even read this blog let alone post here

      Obviously. A bit more circumspection would not go amiss.

    472. Ayeright says:

      @schrodingers cat

      Fucking brilliant, “TAKE BACK CONTROL” you’re a star hahahaaha

    473. CameronB Brodie says:

      schrodingers cat
      If you don’t respect biology you can’t support democracy. So get your party sorted out, before trying to rubbish those trying to support a scientific world view.

      Thomas Percival. Discussing the foundation of Medical Ethics

    474. cynicalHighlander says:

      So you tell lis as well as post nonsense SC show me were?

    475. schrodingers cat says:

      what, a threat to make trolls lives miserable, you better fuckin believe it

      i seem to have done a pretty good job today disrupting their activities dont you think?

      even cam got so wound up he forgot to take his happy pills 🙂

    476. schrodingers cat says:

      my apologies cynicalHighlander, it wasnt you who posted that the 1st time, it was some other fukcwit

    477. CameronB Brodie says:

      schrodingers cat
      You’re going to have to do better than that, and you can start by learning about the law.

      Natural Law and Human Rights in English Law:
      From Bracton to Blackstone;Natural

    478. schrodingers cat says:


      i thought that it was the lack of risk taking by the snp which wound up the snpbad brigade on here. why call for folk to now be more circumspect?

    479. schrodingers cat says:

      gie it a rest cam, you sound like some demented old primary school teacher

    480. CameronB Brodie says:

      schrodingers cat
      Only if you stop being a dick. 😉

    481. schrodingers cat says:

      who’s being a dick cam

      ive achieved what exactly i set out to do today

      ive completely disrupted the anti CWDs brigade and their yoon followers

      what have you achieved today? apart from being my foil

      your hyperlinks today were as irrelevant as a treatises on the isness of is

    482. CameronB Brodie says:

      schrodingers cat
      Jog on. Your outlook is dangerous, as far as I’m concerned.

      The Signifificance of Natural Law in Contemporary Legal Thought

    483. CameronB Brodie says:

      I have a reply to the cat in moderation, pointing to the significance that natural law has to contemporary legal thought. It was supporting my opinion that that cat’s opinion is ‘insufficiently informed’.

    484. schrodingers cat says:

      you mean i am merely wrong cos i have a different opinion to you?

      that figures. its also consistent with the very points i made about your religious philosophy today

      did you lose the plot a wee bitty cam and use some verboten words?

      i win. the isness of is it is then


    485. Ayeright says:

      schrodingers cat’s comments are the best thing to happen to this blog in months. Usually the comments aren’t worth reading today was an exception. Injected a bit of realism into the debate. This is still an independence supporting site, right?

    486. schrodingers cat says:

      everyone has fucked off now cam
      feel free to post anything you want
      its just you and me

    487. CameronB Brodie says:

      schrodingers cat
      No, you a simply clueless and your opinion differs from international law.

    488. CameronB Brodie says:

      schrodingers cat
      Square go then eh? OK, show my why you think yourself competent to rubbish a perspective informed through an ethical and critical appreciation of jurisprudence?

    489. schrodingers cat says:

      my opinion differs from yours cam

      oh and btw, we are not alone, Ayeright is still up 🙂

      and the answer to your question Aye, is well i still support yes, not sure about the other posters btl, they are all presently away, probably on the pornhub glopping away to vids of CWD’s

      me and cam were just about to embark on a philosophical discusion on the isness of is. feel free to join in 🙂

    490. schrodingers cat says:

      i know ive won when folk threaten me to a square go in cyberspace


    491. CameronB Brodie says:

      schrodingers cat
      I see your ignorance and arrogance are in balance, so you’ll no doubt sleep well.

    492. schrodingers cat says:

      show my why you think yourself competent to rubbish a perspective informed through an ethical and critical appreciation of jurisprudence?

      because folk are allowed a different opinion…. dont you agree?

    493. Ayeright says:

      I’ll decline but thanks for the invite, you lads carry on I’m off to the kip.

    494. schrodingers cat says:

      like a log mon ami

      like a log

      btw, i can sleep standing up and even learnt to sleep during a forced march

      can you even imagine being that tired? i doubt it

    495. CameronB Brodie says:

      schrodingers cat
      I’m off as well, as you’re not someone I want to encourage. Your lack of understanding and respect for the law, should concern all reasonable individuals. Do better.

    496. schrodingers cat says:

      glad you enjoyed my harange the day 🙂

    497. schrodingers cat says:

      might night cam

      dont forget to say yer prayers

      O Thou, that in the heavens does dwell,
      As it pleases best Thysel’,
      Sends ane to Heaven an’ ten to Hell,
      For Thy glory,
      And no for onie guid or ill
      They’ve done afore Thee!

      I bless and praise Thy matchless might,
      When thousands Thou hast left in night,
      That I am here afore Thy sight,
      For gifts an’ grace
      A burning and a shining light
      To a’ this place.

      O Lord, Thou kens what zeal I bear,
      When drinkers drink, an’ swearers swear,
      An’ singing here, an’ dancin there,
      Wi’ great and sma’;
      For I am keepit by Thy fear
      Free frae them a’.

      O Lord! yestreen, Thou kens, wi’ Meg
      Thy pardon I sincerely beg;
      O may’t ne’er be a livin’ plague
      To my dishonour,
      An’ I’ll ne’er lift a lawless leg
      Again upon her.

      Lord, mind Gaw’n Cats just deserts;
      He drinks, an’ swears, an’ plays at cartes,
      Yet has sae mony takin arts,
      Wi’ great an’ sma’,
      Frae God’s ain priest the people’s hearts
      He steals awa’.

      Lord, hear my earnest cry and pray’r,
      Against that Presbyt’ry o’ Ayr;
      Thy strong right hand, Lord mak it bare
      Upo’ their heads;
      Lord visit them, an’ dinna spare,
      For their misdeeds.

      And a’ the glory shall be Thine,
      Amen, Amen!

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