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Wings Over Scotland


Posted on January 02, 1968 by

For off-topic chat. Duh.

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    39037 to “Off-topic”

    1. Tinto Chiel says:

      @Clapper57: agree re your levels of pissedoffidity but you shouldn’t give up on the M/T and to be fair, some on our side aren’t slow in using abuse, which just feeds the trolls. The Rev is very tolerant unless contributors are daft enough to abuse him or question his honesty. If the trolls didn’t get a reaction from other commenters then they would go back under their bridge.

      @JGedd: “When the house is filled with Bach I feel I could just imagine a reconciliation with the world.” Agree completely: you should “inflict” away on here imo, hee, hee.

      What we need is a Wings night out somewhere for a morale booster but of course that’s not possible at the moment.

    2. Clapper57 says:

      @ Tinto Chiel

      Yes…I know what you mean….the minute you acknowledge them via a response to their obvious baiting they reel you in and try to bully you into submission.

      They know they will never sway anyone’s opinion…but then they are not here to do that…they are here to cause disruption and dominate the discussion….

      Sad really ….this used to be a great place to share ideas, beliefs and hopes….now it is infested by deflecting cnuts who are here to promote themselves as opposed to promoting independence…

      Frankly cannot blame so many former posters from venturing onto other sites……as Sarah said in a previous comment this part of the site recognises civil behaviour and the distinction between Off Topic and MT is that we are not treating fellow posters like enemies but like friends who share a common cause…Independence.

      Have a good evening Tinto

    3. Sarah says:

      Well I don’t know. Is there a cunning tho’ slow plan by SNP/Scots gov that will restore our independence without pain and conflict due to its overwhelming “rightness” being recognised by Downing Street and the World?

      Or must we Yessers mount the barricades and march on Holyrood to demand we be recognised as being the source of Scotland’s sovereignty and that Scotland must be free?

      I’m inclining to think the latter may be necessary. The marches have so far all been good humoured and supportive of the SNP so they seem to have left the SNP feeling in control instead of feeling inspired, empowered or instructed to drive on.

      Just a thought arising from wishful thinking and fear of the cruelty and deceitfulness of the Westminster system.

    4. Dan says:


      Aye, a Scottish Spring would nae go a miss, but it seems from my recent workload that we live in a country full o’ folk that cannae even start and maintain their bloody lawnmowers, nevermind start a revolution and run a country…

      I’m numb and no longer know if I am feeling shame or anger that my fellow Scottish Sovereigns can’t even get to grips with a fuckin’ “Easy Start” Briggs & Stratton lawnmower engine.
      It really highlights what a bunch of feckless fuds I’m burdened to live along side, when through their lack of gumption, they are effectively curtailing all my revolutionary time and endevours, because they can’t get the most basic engine on the planet to sustain any revolutions per minute with the aid of explosive fluid.

      May be it’s time to Self ID as a goat as they eat weeds that would free up time from tending my veg. (2 mins contains swearing)

    5. Sarah says:

      I’m afraid my own household suffers from B&S syndrome – the strimmer, the generator, the outboard – they all start more or less and then die within seconds. My husband changes fuel, washes the pertinent parts in clean fuel etc etc etc. Even hands them over to a ship’s engineer cadet to sort out – no difference.

      Is this a metaphor for the indy movement – all fire and no stamina? Only joking.

    6. Tinto Chiel says:

      Just baiting a trap for JGedd, if he’s unsuspectingly wandering about in the area:


    7. Sarah says:

      @ Tinto Chiel: the Blue Blanket is news to me. Very very interesting – and inspiring.

    8. Dan says:


      Sounds like an ever too common problem. Some modern machinery is just utter crap. Looks shiny and bling but barely fit for purpose and a season’s use.
      Don’t fret, another dozen container ships full of next year’s disposable garden machinery are probably already burning tonnes of bunker fuel as they make their way to our shores.
      Just remember to toss all the broken and non-functional stuff into landfill seeing as we haven’t developed proper recycling systems.

      Scotland is considered bonnie. But jeezo, was anyone else plagued by ticks when they were younger and out and about? I can barely go into the woods for 5 minutes these days without getting them on me. They are everywhere.

      Netflix suggested Closed Circuit as a film. T’was ok and rather relevant to the moment re. legal machinations, but was actually made in 2013.

    9. Brian Doonthetoon says:

      This is something I started researching a week or three ago, on my leedle iMac.

      Went back to it tonight. This page at the Internet Archive appears to be the last capture of this page:-

      If you click on the original link (below) you can see what is there…

    10. Liz g says:

      Calling all Wingers hanging out over here. The new FOW account is working hard to send people to the blog so we’re trying to reclaim the BTL away from the nutters get some decent conversation going and try to keep to the Revs rules about posting….so….if yer of a mind to….jump on over and pitch in when you’ve a bit of time πŸ™‚

    11. Tinto Chiel says:

      @Sarah: we could do with a bigger blanket these days πŸ˜‰

      @BDTT: looks like a Winston Smith job πŸ™‚ Can you refer me to a reputable URL shortener, young man?

      @Liz g: I know The Rev’s got a lot on his mind at the moment but most of the problem could be removed by judicious weeding of the disruptive, foul-mouthed timewasters btl. He’s a tolerant host though and may be reluctant to do so.

    12. Brian Doonthetoon says:

      Hi TC.

    13. Tinto Chiel says:

      Thanks, Brian. You gave me this a while back and I had it in my faves but I lost them when my computer went phut two Yules ago.

    14. Sarah says:

      Liz g: yes, you’re right. I shouldn’t leave the M/T to be swamped by trolls. Time for the Blue Blanket to be raised over there. [Not right this minute but will do later.]

    15. Sarah says:

      Done it!

    16. Ian Brotherhood says:

      @Sarah –

      Good on ye. Keep it up!

      Different vibe already, and no sign of the usual suspects! (Yet!)


    17. Michael McCabe says:

      Hello. ? ? ??????? ?

    18. Tinto Chiel says:

      @MMcC: long time no see. How are you? Have missed your musical medleys.

    19. Dan says:

      Genesis (of new List Party) = Land of Confusion

    20. Sarah says:

      @ Ian B: weird that the 77th Brigade types aren’t on it yet. Perhaps they are awaiting their orders?

      @ Dan: re ticks. We, or rather our dog, gets them all year round tho’ we have read and noticed that there are two particularly bad months, May and September.

    21. Tinto Chiel says:

      Let’s all hug a tree and feel the Earth rhythms:

      Ya bass!

    22. Dan says:

      Phew, it’s totes #TapsAffScorchio oot there the day.

      Chores are done so planning to spend the afternoon sitting in a bathtub in the garden to cool off and pondering life.
      I’ll be mulling over topics such as:
      Can I simply become a TransTrout and jump in a river, swim off and be done with all the self inflicted complexities and hassles humans seem to draw themselves into like moths to light.
      Did the rise in self-absorbed narcissistic bonkersness spreading across our society coincide with the launch of the cordless phone, because previously folk were constantly distracted and puzzled to the point of bewilderment as they spent inordinate amounts of their time unraveling the massively twisted and coiled flex to the handset.

      Tears For Fears – Mad World

    23. Tinto Chiel says:

      @Dan: I agree the mobile phone is the fount of all evil and a boon to the security services but at least it spares us from this absolute filth:

      I speak as a concerned ratepayer, obvs.

      Can you advise re my wife’s radishes? Things not going too well at the mo πŸ˜‰

    24. Dan says:

      An hour dans le jardin steeping in the bathtub is highly recommended and therapeutic for both the soul and Vit D levels.
      I shut my eyes and with the blazing heat of sun blended with the cool water it tricked my senses into thinking I was lazing somewhere on the Mediterranean coast.
      Ahh, happy daze memories rekindled from times when we had the joys of freedom of movement to visit our European neighbours.

      Soz can’t help with the radish problem Tinto. That there is first world problems you bring upon yourself by trying to grow such exotic stuff.
      I’ve got an Oca growing but it looks decidedly disheveled and pissed off at being planted in my garden in Scotland and not on a Chilean mountainside. TBH it and I share an empathic bond as I’d also rather be on a Chilean mountainside…
      I embrace the KISS technique in the garden and stick to the simple and robust staples of spuds, onions, beetroots, beans, carrots, courgettes, chard, and tomatoes.

      That phone song you linked to was chronic. But at least the restraining nature of the phone cord motivated other songs to be written such as Blondie’s Hanging on the Telephone.

    25. Dan says:

      Ya dancer, that’s the first off-topic comment I’ve had held in moderation. πŸ™‚

    26. Tinto Chiel says:

      @Dan: it’s usually because of “r-ape” in some form tripping The Rev’s filter.

    27. Tinto Chiel says:

      I wish we were this, but you can’t have everything:

      Linn Berggren for FM for me.

    28. Tinto Chiel says:

      Slide’s great, but listen to the bass:

    29. Dan says:

      Indeed Tinto, I chose the wrong word to describe beneficial health aspects…

      After your Joe Walsh I’ll raise you with Justin Johnson as I reckon you’ll defo dig this. Worth watching his other stuff too.

      Ach sod it. If you like slide here’s Voodoo Child on a shovel and stanley knife!

    30. Tinto Chiel says:

      @Dan: found those remarkable, frankly.

      And I can’t even get a tune oot ma Dutch hoe (ooh, matron!).

      Bootiful night here. I had a song thrush singing in the gloaming long after my blackbird went to bed and pipistrelles flying in pairs under a half moon.

      I have the sole of a peot.

      Night, all!

    31. Sarah says:

      @ Dan and Tinto Chiel: the music was spot on – Dan’s for the lyric and Tinto’s for the soothing quality! I’d never heard of Alan Hovhaness – it’s an education being O/T on Wings.

      Radishes? I’m no expert but they do like water i.e. if it’s dry and hot they don’t do well.

    32. Tinto Chiel says:

      Hovhannessness is a wee world of its own, Sarah, and so much to listen to.

      Thanks, I blootered Mrs Chiel’s radishes (and carrots) with water and everything is fine now.

    33. Tinto Chiel says:

      I thought I would cool things down with this lovely wee film from when Winters Were Winters:

      Amazing to thing the Rere Cross on Stainmore Common (near Brough) marked the greatest extent of the Scottish border in the 12th century. This is the reason no Cumbrian settlements were included in King William I of England’s Domesday Book.

      He was also known as William The Bastard but he wasn’t as big a one as Edward I πŸ™‚

    34. Cactus says:

      Aye aye Wingers, it’s a bonnie day of May.

      Here’s a question to pose for previous no voters (in so many words)…

      Q. When Scotland returns to being an independent country, what 3 things do you ‘think’ you will miss about being within the United Kingdom?

      Ah bet they couldnae now even give ye ONE valid answer!

      Any thoughts on what British Nationalists might suggest?

      Funny A. I think I’ll miss being better together! Ah ha ha ha ha!!

      Other funny (but believable) A’s. “I think I’ll miss fighting together in illegal wars”

      Pose the curious question, get em to think about what being ‘together’ has actually done for Scotland, even more so NOW than in times past and before.


    35. Tinto Chiel says:

      Heard this on the crystal set this morning and thought some of the soffisticates here might enjoy it:

      Gets you right in the tear ducts.

    36. Clapper57 says:

      @ Tinto Chiel @ 2.02pm

      Hi Tinto….roedd hynny’n hyfryd….

      Cael diwrnod braf

    37. Tinto Chiel says:

      Hi, Clapper57: I’ve had a lovely day thanks.

      We met our wee granddaughter for the first time in about eleven weeks and she’s bootifuller than ever, and with a few more teeth. Thank goodness she remembered us, we were worried about that.

      She’s one of these:

    38. Marie Clark says:

      Tinto, that’s nice that you got to see your granddaughter again. Granweans are a great delight, and the nice bit is, you can always hand them back. I always enjoyed them visiting or staying over, but was tired when they went home. That’s probably why we have children when we are young and fit enough to look after them.

      Enjoy the wee one while you can, it’s not long till they’re teenagers and you wonder where the time went. Our twin granddaughters are learning to drive just now, it can get a bit hair raising being the co-pilot.

    39. Ian Brotherhood says:

      @TC –

      Great you got to see the wee one!



    40. Tinto Chiel says:

      @Marie and Ian B: thanks for your understanding comments, vile separatists.

      Princess Tiny Tears is incredibly advanced. When you say , “Where is your nose?” she sticks her wee finger up her nostril.

      Just like her grandad….


      Life goes on πŸ™‚

    41. Ian Brotherhood says:

      @TC –

      When my own granda caught me picking my nose he would say ‘Give me a wave when you get to the bridge.’

      Took me years to work it out. (The joke, that is…)


    42. Tinto Chiel says:

      @Ian: that’s a bit like the constipated mathematician who worked it out using logs.

      Now that’s a really old Maths reference, like a slide-rule pass in old fitba’ parlance.

      We were encouraged in S1 at my old school in 1967 to buy such an instrument but it didn’t do my Maths any good πŸ˜‰

    43. Ian Brotherhood says:



      What a blast from the past.

      I got one of them as a Christmas present when I was about 14.

      Not the best present of all time.

      Like buying one’s better half a state-of-the-art vacuum cleaner.

    44. Tinto Chiel says:

      @Ian: you got that spot-on πŸ˜‰ .

      I was just thinking that this group is totally out of fashion. I loved the Breakfast in America album and particularly the words of this, which seems to describe the mental processes of many of us Vile Seps (ya bass!):

      Any one remember Supertramp?

    45. Tinto Chiel says:

      The moothie here’s like a lonely train whistle on the American prairie (peotry, ya bass!):

      Bonsoir, mes braves!

    46. Brian Doonthetoon says:

      Hi Cactus.

      I received an email notification of your comment (30 May, 2020 at 3:17 pm) at 11:58 this morning. I’m guessing it was held in moderation?

    47. Brian Doonthetoon says:


      My comment at 1:41pm is being held in moderation.

    48. Brian Doonthetoon says:


      I think it may be because I mentioned our stetson-wearing Winger by his username.

    49. CameronB Brodie says:

      Scottish justice certainly throws some spectacular shapes in order to support British nationalism.

      DJ Cummerbund – Play That Funky Music Rammstein

    50. Brian Doonthetoon says:

      Did anyone else catch C-Ac-T-uS’s comment – 30 May, 2020 at 3:17 pm?

    51. Ian Brotherhood says:

      @BDTT –

      I thought I did, but wasn’t sure as I was ‘tired’ at the time.

      Is the man back then?

    52. Col.Blimp IV says:


    53. Brian Doonthetoon says:

      Hi Ian.

      It wasn’t there on Saturday. See my posts above from yesterday.

      “I received an email notification of your comment (30 May, 2020 at 3:17 pm) at 11:58 this morning. I’m guessing it was held in moderation?”

    54. Tinto Chiel says:

      Poetry/Pseuds’ Corner:

      I worked with an older guy who didn’t enjoy National Service and smiled when he read that.

    55. Dan says:


      I responded to a post of the prickly planted one a good while back now. I typed “@their name” and the post got held in moderation. As you’ve probably worked out the name is another selection of letters that will get a post held in moderation.

    56. Tinto Chiel says:

      Reader, I married her…..

    57. Cactus says:

      Hi folks, all guid, I’ve never been away, reading here everyday and enjoying the break (cause we’re all in for the long ‘hawl’ for the now.)

      Good to follow the beginnings of the posts between Ian Bro and SC and others on the previous threads, debating the possible roads and routes-in to our iScotland. There are some crackin’ new characters posting in here too now btl, which remains reassuring as ever to see the fire in awe the bellies! A shout out to all the Wings crew too… hats off, hats on.

      I think it was about the time of the ‘Topeless Himes’ article that things all began to rise up with everybuddy, but had been building for a while, sure ye’s know I like to noise things up a bit πŸ™‚ (because when rowdy or challenged, people tend to think and write better as they are more alert) but it’s all too easy to become absorbed and get carried away in the heat of the moment of the post and sometimes it seems we have to see things through to their natural conclusions, then reset (it’s like being at the top of the indy roller-coaster with no ride to run, so you cast the track back and reset for the next run I guess) that’s what I did.

      Speaking of natural conclusions, like others, I also believe it was important to see things through with regards to the Kezia Dugdale case. Then on reading Rev’s “Of no materiality” article, he revealed and shared the personal effects that this had had on him and I had no idea of the strains Rev was under, so that was quite an eye-opener to me and I hope to be a bit more savvy now, as I don’t mean to annoy or over-antagonise in my delivery.

      ps, hey CameronB, hope you’re well dude, could I invite you to consider the above too πŸ˜‰ everybuddy needs a breather now and again… join me.

      Ach well, I’ve not long finished a backshift so I’m just gonna wind down with some wine now.

      Wings Over Scotland ~ The original and still the best pro-indy website!

    58. Brian Doonthetoon says:

      Hi PricklyOne.

      Your message is timed at 1:17am. I received email notification of it at 12:52pm today. It wasn’t there an hour ago.

      Onnyhoo… Howdy pardner!

    59. Tinto Chiel says:

      Greetings, Man with The Hat (filter-dodging alternative handle).

      A blast from the past for you.

    60. CameronB Brodie says:

      I’ll do my best not to over-do things but I value my human rights and the Scottish government appears happy to ignore international human rights law. That’s because they view the world through British constitutional goggles. πŸ™

      DJ Cummerbund – Earth, Wind & Ozzys

    61. Ian Brotherhood says:

      Hoots big yin!


    62. Tinto Chiel says:

      Those who wish to chill should get their icicles on now:

      …..for about two hours πŸ˜‰

    63. Marie Clark says:

      Hi Tinto, I quite like to chill to this piece myself. Oh to be able to play like that, must practice more. A wee bit shorter than you hill mind you.

    64. Tinto Chiel says:

      Agreed, Marie: any of the Intermezzi are pure kwality and I often sit down at my Boesendorfer, thoroughly inspired, to play “Chopsticks” πŸ™‚ .

      Thought I would bring down the tone even further by saying old Johannes B earned money as a very young man by tickling the ivories in Hamburg brothels.

    65. Sarah says:

      @ Tinto and Marie: Unbelievable ivory tickling – how do those fingers move so fast? They are helping me grind through some paperwork a lot more cheerfully than I was doing! [I never remember that I can listen to music on one tab whilst working on another. Duh!]

    66. Marie Clark says:

      Dinnae worry Sarah, took me quite a while to realise that too. I think it was one of the granweans who told me “Granny, you can listen to the music and open another tab as well”.

      Ah where would I be without the youngsters to keep me right. Glad you enjoyed the music.

    67. Tinto Chiel says:

      Only discovered today that Dave Greenfield, keyboard player in The Stranglers, died a month ago in hospital.

      Here’s a clip from a time when they and we were all Young and Lovely:

      I dedicate this song to Tony Blair…..

    68. Clapper57 says:

      Reading through MT and was a wee bit surprised nay shocked Lol….that a post late last night by a cheery chap not…. included certain naughty words…..who new that a word beginning with the letter M and ending in ‘tion’ also a word beginning with C and ending in ‘dom’ with neither words having any *** in them would be allowed… lives and learns….though in all honesty learnt nothing from the actual comments…Lol

      @ Tinto Chiel @ 9.56am

      The Stranglers…great band…my hubby goes to the Hugh Cornwell gigs when he comes to Edinburgh.Yes sad news indeed about Dave Greenfield.

      Have a nice day

    69. Tinto Chiel says:

      @Clapper57: are HC and JJ Burnel still no’ talkin’ then?

      Since you two are Embraonians, have you ever wandered out to Cairnpapple Hill near Bathgate? Apart from the prehistoric cairn and all that jazz, there is an incredible view. It’s quite true that you can see Goat Fell on Arran, Ben Vorlich (Loch Earn) and North Berwick Law from the one spot, because the first time I visited it was a clear day and I pure seed them all.

      Torphichen is nearby for lunch and the Korean War memorial garden
      too so it’s quite a nice day out (if we are ever released from house arrest).

      TC=Thomas Cook πŸ˜‰

    70. Clapper57 says:

      I submitted a complaint to Rev re current offensive personal comments today towards LizG on MT from certain idiots …sick of this…they are running riot taking over this site and deflecting discussion away from MT…constantly they do it.

      One can be advised to ignore them but why should the person they are attacking do this….when they are belittling that person on a public forum…..shocking.

      Liz G been on this site a lot longer than these two individuals and has always been very supportive of this site and it’s owner too.

      If these idiots contributions were no longer on this site it would raise the level of debate instantly….

      I am raging…just as I raged at the Gender reform and potential abuse towards women and us losing our ‘safe’ spaces …. I am also raging at the bullying of a woman on a public forum….if this continues to be allowed to go on unchecked then I am f***ing off for good……

      ps. sad because I love this site and a lot of peeps on it and totally support the person who runs it but I refuse to continue to post comments as if everything is okay while these idiots continue to be abusive towards LizG….and also pretty sick of them targeting Cameron too with personal and inappropriate comments…..sorry for rant

    71. Tinto Chiel says:

      @Clapper57: an esteemed Winger and Alert Reader pointed out to me a wee while ago that Millennium has the same trademark three-comma stutter “jackie” used to have. You may remember also the similar spittle-flecked aggression which used to come from the latter before The Rev took some action (at least that’s what I inferred from the commenter’s complete disappearance from Wings).

      Only Stu can solve the problem so don’t stop posting.

    72. Sarah says:

      @ Clapper 57 – it worked, well done!! The two very nasty prats have been warned by the Rev.

    73. Tinto Chiel says:

      @Clapper57: I replied to your latest, pointing out similarities between an offensive poster and another who seems to have been already banned but my comment is in moderation because (I think) I named said person and tripped the filter.

      It may appear later.

    74. Tinto Chiel says:

      It’s appeared “now” at 4.35.

      Thanks, Rev.

    75. Clapper57 says:

      @ Tinto Chiel @ 1.45pm

      Hi Tinto apologies for not responding to your post.

      “Cairnpapple Hill near Bathgate”…nope never been there….will mention to my ‘better’ half and see if he knows it…

      “HC and JJ Burnel still no’ talkin’ then”?….not sure once again will ask ‘better’ half…

      Obviously I know NOTHING…Lol

      “TC = Thomas Cook”…Lol…are you taking bookings ?…Lol

      @ Sarah @ 4.49pm

      Hi Sarah..hope you are well…yes I saw that….Read on MT that Liz G complained to Rev…and I think that was what he responded to re his warning to both of them…good….might get some peace now….

      Hope you both have a lovely evening….take care

    76. David says:

      R.I.P. Steve Priest, the bassist of glam rock band The Sweet, who has died at the age of 72.

      He was a founding member of the group who rose to worldwide fame in the 1970s.

      ‘Ballroom Blitz’:

    77. Ian Brotherhood says:

      @Sarah & Clapper 57 –

      One of those belters made an actual threat against the FOW stall -that should be an instant red card.

    78. Clapper57 says:

      @ Ian Brotherhood @ 11.10pm

      Yep Ian …read that comment… the part about “Will find out if those more vocal ones are as vocal as they make out they are” is definitely a threat….shocking…..

      As it is late cannot say have a good evening so have a good day tomorrow….take care

    79. Ian Brotherhood says:

      @Clapper57 –

      Same back to you.

      Have just responded to your excellent guesswork on the MT and am now about to hit the sack to watch The Sopranos, armed only with a large bag of peanuts and a bottle of Sainsbury’s Own Bitter Lemon.



    80. Tinto Chiel says:

      @Clapper57: no worries. That hill would be a great one for blowing away the Covid cobwebs (remaining 2m apart, obvs).

      @David: sad another one is gone. I like the YouTube version of that track with the Harley Quinn excerpts.

    81. Sarah says:

      @ Ian B at 11.10 p.m.: does the Rev know about that? If not then he needs to know so he can block him permanently. What a relief that would be for the rest of us.

    82. Clapper57 says:

      @ Sarah @ 10.18am

      Hi Sarah he may already be banned or have his comments in pre moderation ( which would make him give up anyway ) as after Rev issued warning there was a post from him directly below the Rev’s comment/warning where he called Liz G a bitch for grassing him up… that too, as well as his pathetic veiled threat Ian mentioned above ….so both could ensure he is either doomed from posting freely without checks…. or that he has been banned completely…’s hoping.

      Have a lovely day

    83. JGedd says:

      Hardly ever visit the main thread btl comments any more, just drop in for the articles. But dropped into MT now to discover that there had been an intervention at last. (Not the Eminence Broon but He Who Must Be Obeyed.) Read back to find what had been said to Liz G and it was completely uncalled for.

      The two culprits who were rightly admonished are not unfortunately the only ones who have changed the tone into something unpleasant and hostile. There are a handful of new(?) commenters who seem to seek out confrontation. It’s like dropping in on an incel forum full of angry, self-regarding adolescents.

      I used to regularly visit the site not just for the articles but for the informed and enlightening comments below the line. Those were the days.

      (Hope they don’t find their way onto Off-Topic. It tends to be the one place I do visit from time to time even though not often on t’internet much anymore.)

    84. Tinto Chiel says:

      @JGedd: we need more of your sanity, then we could invoke the Sanity Claus and then we could have this:

      *Highly contrived argument to persuade you to stay on O/T.*

    85. Marie Clark says:

      Wait! What! Christmas, have I been doing a Mrs Van Winkle, how did we get here.

      For goodness sake Tinto, you have given every woman in the country palpitations. So much to do for Christmas, but let’s have what we can of what is laughingly known as summer.

      I hope I hivnae missed indyref2 while I’ve been asleep. Did we win this time? So many questions, so much to do. Mofffuradram to calm my noives. Naughty boy.LOL.

    86. Tinto Chiel says:

      Have another on me, Marie:

      Yes, we won Indyref2 and I was appointed Great Perpetual Leader. Ronnie Anderson is Head of the Diplomatic Corps, Breeks in charge of Constitutional Affairs, Nana Media Management and Ian B is Minister for The Arts.

      If you fancy any other gig, plz advise πŸ˜‰

    87. Marie Clark says:

      Oh I’m so pleased that we won. Office bearers sounding good.Kinna be in charge o justice, I can think of a few that I’d like to deal with in my own sweet way.

      Maybe we’re no kidding too much, have you seen Scot Goes Pop panelbase poll.Good oh.

      Cheers Hic, pardon.

    88. Tinto Chiel says:

      Justice gig sorted, Marie, just put that glaive away, hee hee.

      Put a wee tait water in it. You’ll need a clear head tomorrow for your portfolio.

    89. Ian Brotherhood says:

      @Marie Clark –

      Nae wummin who has ever encountered the TC in real life has *not* reported palpitations.

      He canny help it, just natural intit?


      (PS He got all the sartorial hints from yon Smallaxe. And that’s a fact!)


    90. Tinto Chiel says:

      @Ian B: I always try my best for The Laydees *twirls luxuriant moustaches roguishly*

      Talking of The Great One, I remember him standing magnificently dressed in his three-piece suit, fed and two-tone shoes near the Wings stall after a march. Apparently a lady marcher had said on Wings later that she was so disappointed to have missed him.

      “Missed me?” he said. “How could she have missed me? I was standing there looking like a pimp in a nunnery!”

    91. Sarah says:

      Good morning, everyone [tho’ a touch dreich here]. I expect you’ve noticed that already the M/T is infested. A rescue attempt from your good selves is needed! I’ll pop over and try…

    92. Ian Brotherhood says:

      @TC –

      That sounds familiar – pretty sure that’s the day I met Mr and Mrs Smallaxe for the first time. Wouldn’t even be able guess the year never mind month.


    93. Tinto Chiel says:

      I think it was either Bannockburn/Stirling or Dumfries, Ian. Was that 2018?

      This is up to date but very O/T, which is why it is here:

      Of course, for some these data may be the wrong kind of science. You’ll have to make your own mind up.Click on coloured words for links.

    94. Tinto Chiel says:

      An early Scots law ruling on slavery:

    95. Tinto Chiel says:

      Wrong thread.

    96. Dan says:

      The Yin Yang of life plays out in Scotland…

      Woke up this morning (Don’t worry, not that type of woke) to see Scotland exporting approximately the same amount of leccy to England as we were using ourselves. Most likely due to renewable windpower. Groovy! πŸ™‚

      How and ever, with the good comes the bad…

      The wind was a boon for clean energy production but a very lietral blow for my best pumpkin plant that has had its head blown clean off Dirty Harry Magnum 45 style. Arse! πŸ™

    97. Dan says:

      Pumpkin Lives Matter!
      It’s hellish to see a young life cut so short.
      Just back in from holding a ceremony at the compost heap to see the remains off to the afterlife.
      Gonna be a two beer evening to dull the emotions.

      Smashing Pumpkins – Tonight

    98. Sarah says:

      But it was a quick end, Dan. Pity my poor runner beans shredded slowly by a single small snail that got into the protective custody plastic tub…

    99. Sarah says:

      @ Dan – I have finally got round to responding on M/T to your post this morning about the Lisbon Treaty 2007 laying down exactly how easy it will be for independent Scotland to be the successor state in the EU. It is great news.

    100. Dan says:

      Bad luck on the beans lass. Could you eat the snail to salvage some protein from your endevours?
      Escargot Γ‰cossais #KeepScotlandTheBrand πŸ™‚

      Kinda good news as got a call from the local farm as their tractor won’t start, so that means I’ll head up to sort it and get paid with a replacement pumpkin plant and bag of cow dung to supercharge its growth.

      My two blueberry bushes are dropping their petals and beginning to form loads of berries. Seems both plants are happy with my trials of top dressing the soil to keep it acidic. One bush with tea leaves and pine needles, and the other with a bag of soggy black mud collected from a drainage ditch on a heather moor.

      Did you read back over that Article 48 & 49 stuff? 48 just seemed so relevant to Scotland’s situation. Could it be getting lined up behind the scenes as a strategy to foil Westminster’s plans.
      Might be a fine bluff playing out as on the one hand with Mr Blackford’s words looking to be all bluster and riling many Indy folk, but that is just a running distraction for what was really going on.
      Poster mr thms does have a mysterious but confident air to them, just dropping in occasionally with thought provoking comment.

    101. Dan says:


      I see we cross posted and you’ve recently commented on the MT re. article 48 and 49.

    102. Tinto Chiel says:

      This dropped into my YouTube gander-bag this morning:

      The most dangerous man in the UK? Certainly wakes you up of a morning.

      Think he’s been reading Ethel Macdonald, Motherwell’s own Bakunin, “Governments will never save the people. They exist to exploit and destroy the people. There is but one force that can save the people—and that is the people themselves.”

    103. Sarah says:

      @ Tinto Chiel: I am watching that youtube of Dr Vernon Anderson and am totally confused. I thought the “excess deaths” figures were convincing that this virus isn’t a “normal flu”?

      He is right that we shouldn’t trust what the government or media say. But the rest of what he says?

    104. Marie Clark says:

      Tinto, I’m not quite sure how to take that video of Dr Anderson, I find myself like Sarah a bit confused. Oh well, each to their own as they say.

      No deaths reported today for the first, that’s good.

      I’ll leave this, courtesy of the wee ginger dug.

    105. Tinto Chiel says:

      @Sarah: obviously, I don’t know what parts you are referring to exactly. I think he starts from a position that we can trust nothing the government says and he feels he has suffered from attempts to take down his videos because he attacks the BBC and the Tories.

      He seems to question how many people have actually died from Covid as opposed to those who have had their deaths attributed to it. I’m not clear how he would explain excess deaths in England. I suspect catastrophic mismanagement in care homes will have had a lot to do with it. Eminent scientists in Germany and elsewhere warned from March that the Covid lockdown would cause significant other deaths from untreated diseases, depression, suicide, etc.

      The full picture will not emerge until the virus is over, although any inquiry here will drag on like Chilcot until people have forgotten what it’s about or have given up the will to live. Look at the tactics employed by the government already with Grenfell: an early attempt to point the finger at the fire service.

      Cooper is a contrarian so you don’t have to agree completely with his interpretation of things but I am deeply suspicious myself of the establishment narrative regarding the virus and its management and there is so much conflicting scientific “evidence”.

      I’ve posted this before:

      That is how a small, independent country dealt with the disease. Austria is another. Mongolia is yet another example of a country with virtually no deaths because of better management. Tory incompetence has meant the deaths of many, many more people than there should have been.

    106. Tinto Chiel says:

      @Marie: that was so hilarious Mrs Chiel spilled her Cava! Will forward to our two Chielettes, who loathe The Fat Bam. Thanks for sharing πŸ™‚

      Hoping for the sequel feat. Johnson “The Fridge Boy”.

    107. Clapper57 says:

      Hello Off Topic my old friend…..

      The place that let’s you breathe….without somebody breathing down your neck….and telling you that your talking S***E…Lol

      There was a rumour that an empty room was waiting for someone to start an argument…then….someone mentioned WOS MT was probably a better place to start one…Lol

      Have a good evening everyone….you’ll have a better one if you stay in Off Topic…..

    108. Tinto Chiel says:

      @Clapper57: let Miles soothe your fevered brow……

    109. Brian Doonthetoon says:

      Hi Tinto et al.

      I find this track strangely addictive. Emma Thompson used it as the theme for her sketch show many years ago.

      Onnyhoo, my search for that also found an interesting version by Jon Lord.

    110. Clapper57 says:

      @ Tinto Chiel

      Thank you….I’m soothed now…or suitably chilled… but me fevered brow still perspires with the heat coming out of the MT…Lol

      Talking of Miles I love Sketches of Spain…one of my favourite Miles recordings….

      Hubby loves Kind of Blue…and also Bitches Brew….been living with ME too long…Blue and Bitch(es) being the operative words obvs….Lol

      Always good to have an eclectic taste in music….a lot of people tend to dismiss certain styles of music and restrict themselves to just one type….sad cause so many good artists out there under different genres…if it’s good it’s good and it does not matter who it is or what it is….whatever rocks your boat…..or as YOU say soothes your fevered brow….

      Take Care

    111. Tinto Chiel says:

      “If it’s good it’s good.”

      Works for me, C57. Good taste in your gaff.

      @BDTT: you were doing so well (musically) until you mentioned ET.

      Now my mind goes back to all the “Don’t leave us, lead us” spanners wot really got up my nose in 2014, like Bowie.

      Doesn’t affect me, affect me, affect me……

    112. JGedd says:


      Love Miles Davis too. ‘Some Kind of Blue’ is a favourite for cruising home at night in the car.

      Belated thanks by the way, Monsieur Haricot, for the Bach. Tried to reciprocate by posting some of my favourite music too but wouldn’t send for some reason.

      Dropped in briefly to the main thread – and promptly left again. Life’s too short.

    113. Brian Doonthetoon says:

      Did someone mention Bach?

    114. Tinto Chiel says:

      @JGedd: I had a look at the M/T myself last night and saw what you meant. It’s no wonder we seek solace in Miles’n’Bach. When I was looking at the 2014 Wings pages which Ian B put up a few nights ago, I noticed you posted regularly then. It’s quite sad how many seem to have given up the ghost.

      Sometimes music from YouTube causes your comment to go missing if you don’t remove everything before www in the url. Then of course there’s Stu’s word filter, when even mentioning the fruit of the vine can send your comment plummeting into moderation/oblivion.

      @BDTT: that was nice πŸ™‚

    115. Marie Clark says:

      Hi everyone, just a wee quick visit just now, busy morning. Mr C will be in for his soup shortly so I better get the table set.

      Here’s a guy who knows how we all feel right now.

      See you all later.

    116. Marie Clark says:

      Oh hell’s bells, whit’s goin oan. Try again

    117. Clapper57 says:

      Morning Tinto Chiel..hope you are well.

      I ventured into the jungle of the MT just now and added a comments onto the thread ‘The Strongman’…before the militia arrive for duty …Lol

      Al quiet on MT front just now….Rev now posted a new topic/thread…subject matter I am sure may not interest the keyboard warriors who infest the MT…not sure what their rota is and who is on duty first…but their usual modus operandi is to wait until current thread topic dies down and then they begin their exercises…operation deflect deflect deflect…pity some on here engage with them as they deploy their (un)friendly fire…..Lol

      Good to sneak in an occasional RELEVANT comment though…before incoming battle of the pointless arguments begins…Lol

      Have a good day…chill out with some music….

    118. Tinto Chiel says:

      @Marie: before the mask came off, I thought it was Elvis Costello. Don’t know whether to laugh or cry about the song. Even Harvey’s had enough.

      @Clapper57: this woke nonsense will be the political death of us all. Can’t understand any woman accepting this, let alone promoting it.

    119. Tinto Chiel says:

      Damn you, lockdown! Took up the ukulele and couldn’t get my hair cut:

    120. JGedd says:

      The main thread is much improved today. Just took a new article I suppose.

      Clapper57 making excellent contributions as usual. I’m a fan.

      @Tinto Chiel

      See, that’s why I became a lurker. I was happy to yield the field to commenters who were making contributions and providing links and saying what I wanted to say, though better and more concisely. ( I suffer severely from prolixity as you might have guessed.)

    121. CameronB Brodie says:

      Honestly peeps, if this GRA reform goes through, and is then protected by the Hate Crime bill, there is no sustainable future for open democracy in Scotland. Without open democracy, Scotland is unlikely to even seek constitutional justice.

      It is not possible to respect human rights without a legal respect for the human genome. That isn’t possible if you insists trans women are women. Simples.

      Integrating Brain Science and Law: Neuroscientific Evidence and Legal Perspectives on Protecting Individual Liberties

    122. CameronB Brodie says:

      Sorry, that was meant for the MT.

    123. Clapper57 says:

      @ JGedd @ 8.40pm

      What a nice person you are…really nice thing to say…in all honesty I too cannot master the art of being concise…even I get bored reading what I write on MT…Lol

      I am trying to wean myself off this site….but there is so much rubbish going down…in the news I mean…not on here…well depends who it is I suppose…Lol …so the compulsion to have my say draws me back in….can one be addicted to posting on this site ?

      Maybe there is a Posters Anonymous to wean you off adding comments onto other people’s blogs….Lol

      Will try some self discipline….peppered with a pinch of will power….or cutting me hands off might work…Lol

      I must try harder not to post so much…for my sanity if nothing else….mind you Off Topic is a nice place …safe and free from confrontation…..good music choices too…

      ps. I was feeling down today…you lifted my spirits with your nice comment.Thanks

      Have a nice evening

    124. Tinto Chiel says:

      @JGedd: you’re not prolix at all and I’m sure the M/T would be the better for your comments but I rarely bother myself, usually for the reasons you gave,so I quite understand what you mean.

    125. Clapper57 says:

      @ Me @ 10.10pm

      Apologies to J Gedd…when I said in response to your comment about “prolixity” my comment “in all honesty I too cannot master the art of being concise”…I was not inferring you could not be concise….badly put by me and not what I meant….and I agree with Tinto that the MT would be the better for your comments….

      Take Care

    126. JGedd says:


      Dinna fash yersel’! No inference taken so no offence given.

      That’s the trouble with written communication it can often sound more solemn than was intended. Had we been in the same room talking you would have known that my remark about prolixity was meant light-heartedly and that I don’t take myself that seriously.

      If anything, the fault was mine, in that by saying that, it was like fishing for reassurance so that nice people like yourself and Tinto felt obliged to supply it!

      (I suppose that’s the reason people use LOL. Used to irritate me a little but now I understand why people do it.)

      Anyway, have a good day.

      (The Rev is going great guns at the moment which might keep the pesky infiltrators at bay with their miasma of ever more fantastical conspiracy theories.)

    127. Clapper57 says:

      @ Tinto Chiel @ 12.32pm

      That link was interesting…how did you find it / know about it ?

      @ JGedd @ 12.18pm

      Hi, so glad you did not take offence..didn’t think you would as you seem too reasonable and chilled to do so….re the Lol…yep it is annoying and you are correct as sometimes people take what/How you say something in the wrong way…as in they are offended so I keep it light and Lol shows I am joking…God the things you do because of your paranoia…instigated I may add because of how some people react…cannot chill out…MT talking about obvs…

      Anyway Capella has now shown me HOW to add smiley emoji sooooooo I can use that instead….as in… πŸ™‚

      Have a nice evening both of you…God help everyone if I overuse smiley emoji in same way I overused Lol….

    128. Sarah says:

      @ Capella: we have been subjected to a lot worse than overuse of πŸ™‚ and LOL!

    129. hackalumpoff says:

      @Tinto Chiel “Got cabin fever?”
      Thanks for that Tinto just as I’m finishing my shed re-roofing project you have given me a couple of new jobbies (aka Jobs where I live, the source of much hilarity with Weegies and the like)

      This is well worth 10 minutes of anyone’s time, I dare you to watch it and not be moved.

      And just to keep things civilised, as the Hutters do, I thought a wee Rayburn would come in handy, her indoors swears by them, as does my ex..

      What with all the the peat I have cut this year things will be toasty

      A naughty wee still will be necessary to use all the waste heat. So at last I have a use for all that copper pipe I have been saving for the last 40 years since I installed my first Rayburn.

      Cabin fever LOLZ

    130. JGedd says:


      That was a fascinating article on the Carbeth Hutters. I had heard vaguely about the Carbeth Cabins but I had no idea that Carbeth had had such a long history and that there had been a buyout. Long may they continue.

    131. Tinto Chiel says:

      @Clapper57 & JGedd: I’ve been reading about some Scottish anarchists and socialists recently and the huts at Carbeth came into my mind. I knew an old Communist who used to talk about them quite a lot too. He was an idealist who worked in the Peace Factory in Glasgow.

      @hackalumpoff: glad I whetted your interest. Keep those Rayburns away from me. I was cooking for a party of walkers at an outdoor centre in the early 80s and knelt down to take some pizzas out of the oven. In trying to balance myself as I stood up I welded the ends of my fingers to one of the hotplates on the hob. Very painful but at least I don’t leave fingerprints when I’m safe blowing πŸ™‚

      I’ll watch that first video later at my convenience.

    132. Tinto Chiel says:

      Surprisingly, I found a reference to The Peace Factory in a book about The Iona Community. Don’t seem to be many idealists around today, really.

    133. hackalumpoff says:

      FFS! haggis chips curry and cheese, was he out with Rev Stu?

    134. Tinto Chiel says:

      I’m afraid the curry sauce and cheese with chips is the most depraved plate I done ever see.

      Maw ‘n’ Paw took me to that establishment after I graduated. Things were grim during the Boer War.

      FWIW, I hear The Rev likes a Chinese gastronomic experience, with lashings if IB.

    135. Jill Sharpe says:

      I’ve been told by email that this is another place for discussion is that true – the blog pages seem very obstreperous.

    136. Brian Doonthetoon says:

      Hi Jill.

      Welcome to the oasis!

      Whilst keeping up to date here, a couple of years ago, I started reading from the very start of this ‘off-topic’ (and ‘Quarantine’).

      It makes interesting reading, how the WOS get-togethers ‘got together’ and so on. If you’re stuck for reading material, you may enjoy reading how this page evolved, from the start of 2014.

      If you haven’t been dipping in here or Quarantine, it’ll all be new to you.

    137. Tinto Chiel says:

      Hi, Jill. Input here can be erratic but just say what you like (and bring some chipolatas for the camp fire).

    138. Clapper57 says:

      Hello everyone….just popped in for a wee visit.

      I’ve run out of things to say on MT….so I have come onto Off topic…to ask someone to pick a wee Tune…..if you could add a link to it too…but can I make a request….AC/DC Whole Lotta Rosie….I would link it….but as you all know I’m dumb dumb on techno techno………I feel as if something loud…fast…AND with a woman’s name in the title of the track…well it seems somewhat apt especially with what is happening/being discussed off and on…..via the MT…… πŸ˜‰

      Have a good evening

    139. Tinto Chiel says:

      @Clapper57: nice girls like you shouldn’t be listening to filth like this:

      BDTT will give you the techno tutorial later πŸ™‚

    140. Dan says:

      C’mon Clapper, you mastered smileys this week so let’s push the boat out and get you sorted with youtube links.

      Copy the youtube link of the song you want to post from your browser and paste it into the comment box.
      IMPORTANT remove the https:// before the www.

      Oh, seeing as we’re rockin, here’s Ace of Spades from Justin on his shovel.

      Just gonna go on ebay and order a Fender Stratocaster for lifting my tatties later in the year…

    141. Brian Doonthetoon says:


      I don’t know if ‘the Bahl o’ Kirriemair’ is featured here but it wouldn’t surprise me (Bon Scott’s birthplace).

    142. JGedd says:

      Oh, have I missed Clapper then?
      Well this is not AC/DC….and doesn’t have a girl’s name. In fact, it’s not what she asked for at all.

      But what the hell – how about some African sunshine from the late Mory Kante?

      ‘Night all.

    143. Clapper57 says:

      Hello Tinto…Dan…& JGedd

      Thanks Tinto…for the track

      Thanks Dan for the techno techno lesson

      How you doin JGedd ..well I hope.

      So sorry I got carried away…watched track Tinto added link for then started to watch ACDC ‘Live’ at River Plate….Angus Young long guitar solo on track ‘Let there be Rock’….Bellissimo.

      So …I watched brilliant film Mississippi Burning tonight with Gene Hackman…kinda relevant just now…Gene Hackman a fine actor….don’t tha talk reeeeeeel pretty in tha south and everythang….NOT…Lol ( Sorry JGedd couldnae resist a wee Lol in there…)

      Dan & JGedd will listen to YOUR linked tracks after writing this comment….

    144. Tinto Chiel says:

      @Clapper 57: you’re obvs. having too much fun. Have a word with yourself πŸ™‚ πŸ˜‰ πŸ™‚

    145. Clapper57 says:

      @ Dan

      “Just gonna go on ebay and order a Fender Stratocaster for lifting my tatties later in the year”…..

      Lol Dan

      Hey Dan if you get other instruments as well you can have a HOEdown (pick tatties and social get together)and if you also get a TELEcaster….you can watch the TELLY too…..

      I’ll stop there…..note still nae ‘link’ fae me….but I do have a πŸ™‚

    146. Clapper57 says:

      @ Tinto Chiel @ 11.18pm

      πŸ˜‰ πŸ™‚

    147. Tinto Chiel says:

      “You woudn’t know a diamond if you held it in your hand.”

      Pure peotry…..

    148. Tinto Chiel says:

      And even more so, and the lyrics are pretty dark:

      Night all! Or Nytol, can never remember which.

    149. Marie Clark says:

      Ah Steely Dan, good choice. I’ve only seen this this morning, away to bed early last night, absolutely cream crackered.

      Hope everyone’s doing all right, nice to see a few mair folk joining in.

      Mofftaewalkthedug. I don’t think the dug has every been so fit, and it’s doing me good as well.

    150. Tinto Chiel says:

      Marie, I used to think about that song and wondered what it really meant but then I found an explanation near the end of the internet wot sed it was just a girl’s phone number (how quaint!).

    151. Tinto Chiel says:

      I’m trying to raise the tone here with this excellent article:

      And back down again: *Warning, man-cave content*

    152. Tinto Chiel says:

      Some find The Beatles bland but they were fine in their psychedelic phase:

      I refer doubters to their absurdist lyrics:

      “I read the news today, oh boy
      Four thousand holes in Blackburn, Lancashire
      And though the holes were rather small
      They had to count them all
      Now they know how many holes it takes to fill the Albert Hall.”

      Deep, eh? πŸ™‚

    153. JGedd says:

      @Tinto Chiel @ 6.18pm

      That was an excellent article. A comprehensive analysis of an enduring wrong. Gary Younge has always been a highly-readable and instructive journalist. With the pandemic and cops caught murdering a black man on the streets of an American city yet again, this looks like the universe is trying to get our attention before it’s too late. It appears like one of those unexpected moments when all of the swirling currents of the human ocean come together to create a storm.

      Hope the young people who have taken to the streets in justified anger realise that things can’t be changed unless they are changed utterly. Without understanding of how much is wrong, then that anger will dissipate uselessly.

    154. Tinto Chiel says:

      @JGedd: yes, it was quite a tour de force, and I found some of the stats in what I still refer to as “the slave states” to be quite appalling.

      I’ve never been down there myself, and my experience of the USA is restricted to wee holidays “above the line” but I have a Scottish friend of a dear friend whose Afro-American wife came to Scotland because she was told to “get back to Africa” while on the Manhatten subway. I say Manhatten, she wasn’t in a redneck area: what can you say to that?

      While waiting for a connecting flight from Philadelphia in 2018, I got talking to a nice guy from California who was returning there from NYC after visiting his mother in Brooklyn. He began complaining about Trump in the departure lounge to me because he heard my accent, and when he phoned his Mexican wife and had the temerity to speak in Spanish, I could feel the temperature of the room plummet.

      The biggest growler was actually a black woman who was an UA air-hostess and who scowled at us continually during his call. Guess who was working on our flight to LA?

      I give up. Biden isn’t the answer, that’s for sure. A lot of intelligent and empathetic Americans simply don’t have anyone to vote for, like last time.

    155. JGedd says:


      Some interesting personal insights there. I have visited Canada but never USA. I plead Michael Foot’s excuse for not having been to the USA – ‘I never felt the need’.

      You are right about Biden, the usual default candidate for the Democrats. I have met Americans travelling here who despair about their democratic system but they are the ones who can travel. We are in the same boat though and it is sinking. Part of that problem is our entangled elites, the Transatlanticists who run our countries.

    156. Tinto Chiel says:

      @JGedd: how true. The USA has an incredible variety of fantastic landscapes but I think fewer than 20% of the people have passports (so many just don’t accept our basic Eurpoean concepts like the lack of need for personal arms).

      I was captivated by the former and the friendliness of the ordinary Joes in general. I confess my Scottish accent helped but generally people are people all over the globe, it’s our governments which divide us. I wonder why that would be πŸ™‚ ?

      Think I’m becoming an anarchist πŸ˜‰

    157. JGedd says:


      We can still enjoy the good things that came out of America, from the ordinary Americans – like jazz.

      Here’s one of those good things to say g’night with. The late Don Ellis playing at the Monterey Jazz Festival. We had it on vinyl but we played it thin over the decades. oouldn’t ever track down a CD version.

      Liked this track in particular, the title is the time signature ( Ellis loved complicated rhythms ) as he adds on the original recording, subdivsion 19. It was a great stereo recording and in the intro, Ellis was interrupted speaking to the audience by a twin-engined plane flying over. It could be unnerving hearing an invisible plane fly in one wall of the living room and fly out through the opposite wall.

      A great musician who died too early:

      (Anarchism? Now you’re talking my language. But that’s another conversation.)

    158. JGedd says:


      Aargh. Posted the long version.

      This is the one I meant to post. Sorry. (Obviously need to get to bed.) Slinks off in a hurry.

    159. Tinto Chiel says:

      @JG: I’d just finished listening to the long one. Amazingly complex with all the cross rhythms (at least to my untutored ears) and a great example of music which goes beyond the usual boundaries: an education, so thanks, never even heard of Don E. before.

      I grew up listening to my big brother’s records on his Dansette when he was out, mainly Lou Watters’ Yerba Buena and King Oliver, etc but also (later on ) Cream and psychedelic Beatles and early Stones.

      All I have to offer in return is this:

    160. Tinto Chiel says:

      The main thread got me thinking about public statues. Where I live a local coalmaster erected a monument to himself about the turn of the 19th century. It cost about Β£10,000, a huge sum then, equivalent to about Β£500,000 today, so it gives you some idea of his disposable income. You don’t have to be a Marxist to say his money came from the sweated labour of exploited miners, like my grandfather and great grandfather on the distaff side.

      Strangely enough, there is no monument in his birthplace to this guy, without whom there would possibly not be the states of Brazil, Chile and Peru, where he is widely revered:,_10th_Earl_of_Dundonald

      Maybe Victorian Scotland didn’t like the notions of independence from a corrupt and bloated empire coming too close to home πŸ˜‰ .

    161. Clapper57 says:

      @ Tinto Chiel

      Hello…listened to your Steely Dan track…Wunderbar.

      My favourite is Deacon Blues from Aja album…

      So I have already reported for duty on MT today….have performed a character assassination on Royal family namely Queenie, Charles and a wee snide slight upon yon junior royals….written chinwag with Liz G….then another ‘Get it off my chest’ piece about Self ID…plus a response to another poster who responded to comment I wrote.

      Now exhausted ….yes I tire easily…but could not leave without frequenting Off Topic…to say hello to you, JGedd, Dan and any t’other peep on here.

      Have a nice day….

    162. Tinto Chiel says:

      @Clapper57: noticed you’d been busy.The security services will have opened a new file on you following your scurrilously disrespectful attack on the Saxe Coburg Gothas πŸ˜‰ .

      Few things show how mad Woke World is than their attitude to FGM. Words fail me on that subject.

      I’ve been doing some football research recently and came upon this old footage of a 20’s fitba match. I’m including it merely for the wonderful pre-match shots of the crowd. Some of the bunnets are wider than Desperate Dan’s soup plate and the spectators look as if they’ve been shanghaied.

      For those of you viewing in black and white, Ra Sizzle are in dark blue and Motherwell in the yoked jerseys.

      I’m trying to maintain O/T’s reputation as an oasis of culture, with a capital K.

    163. Clapper57 says:

      @ Tinto Chiel @ 2.12pm

      “Some of the bunnets are wider than Desperate Dan’s soup plate ”

      “the spectators look as if they’ve been shanghaied”….

      That is so funny TC….:’)

      ( trying out new emoji above…hopefully works and does not end up as just showing punctuation marks…Lol..or worse does work and shows something completely different from what I intended…..if so …forgive I am a novice dumb dumb technophobe…).

      Fitba….not my bag……filming from the past….weird…but really interesting…it kinda fascinates me…are we evolving or regressing…God knows….or does he ?….Lol

      Love how when you see films taken years ago that everybody seems to walk with a waddle …think it may have been speed of camera thing…techno techno….but they seemed to sway from side to side when walking….today they just do that after coming out of the pub….. πŸ˜‰

      Stay safe and Take Care

    164. Clapper57 says:

      @ Me @ 2.38pm

      “trying out new emoji above”

      It didn’t work….hope you enjoyed the ..PUNCTUATION….Lol

      (was meant to be laughing face with tears….that’s what happens when you try to run before you can walk…with the Emoji’s…)

    165. hackalumpoff says:

      @ Tinto Chiel 2:12 pm
      “I’m trying to maintain O/T’s reputation as an oasis of culture, with a capital K.”

      See here for Capital Bunnet KKKulture

    166. Tinto Chiel says:

      Hi, Clapper57: these emoticons can be tricky (especially for me).

      Sometimes even using the various punctuation marks just doesn’t work on Wings for the more unusual emoticons. Keep at it!

      @Hacka: jeezo, yon Nigel Farage has really gone to seed, innit?

    167. Tinto Chiel says:

      Talking of Farage *puts on serious face*, this is as good a “cut-off-at-the -knees” job as any.


    168. Tinto Chiel says:

      I noticed Capella talking about the loss of the 51st Highland Division at St Valery-en-Caux (so beloved of De Gaulle but not Churchill, obvs) and thought some of you soffisticates might like this classic:

      Before I go out goat-nadgering with Harvey tonight (for ’tis the season), I’ll leave you with two Chic Murray classics:

      “Doctor, I’ve broken my leg in two places.”

      “Well, don’t go to those places.”


      “Doctor, I have this pain in my side.”

      “Well, take off your clothes and lie on the couch.”

      “Where will I put my clothes?”

      “Just put them on top of mine.”


      Eh thank yow!

      Shameless, me…….

    169. Ian Brotherhood says:

      Favourite old cheesy joke:

      ‘Doctor, doctor, I keep thinking I’m a dog.’

      ‘Well, why don’t you lie down on this couch and we can talk about it.’

      ‘I can’t. I’m not allowed on the couch.’


    170. Tinto Chiel says:

      You’re barking mad, me old haricot πŸ™‚

    171. Tinto Chiel says:

      “Some cream with your coffee, madam?”

      Bishopbriggs’ finest on bass.

      Thing I didn’t notice at the time on my brother’s chanky Dansette, was how good the harmonies were.

    172. Sarah says:

      Re St Valery, in Ullapool a street is called St Valery Place as many local men were in the Seaforths. Ullapool Museum Facebook page has an interview with the wife of Kenny John Mackenzie, one of those imprisoned for 5 years.

    173. Tinto Chiel says:

      @Sarah: if you haven’t already, you may enjoy reading “St Valery, The Impossible Odds”, edited by Bill Innes, Birlinn, 2006. These are accounts, originally in Gaelic, by Angus Campbell from Lewis and Donald John MacDonald from South Uist of their experiences before and after their capture. They were both bards, incidentally.

      We visited St Valery en Caux when in the area a while ago. The monuments to the 51st HD are very impressive. The harbour is like a notch between high cliffs and I can’t imagine how the troops could have been evacuated in large numbers by the Royal Navy right under the noses of the Luftwaffe. It does make you suspect there was no realistic prospect of escape and that they were abandoned to their fate by Churchill. At least De Gaulle never forgot their bravery.

    174. peter says:

      Sarah and Tinto Chiel.
      Re St Valery.
      I was told that the 51st was within a French army group. At the time [the crucial days] it was thought a matter of vital importance that France continue fighting and be persuaded not to seek an armistice. To withdraw the British division unilaterally in order to try to push through on its own to Le Havre would have been a huge step to take.
      The cliffs at St Valery were occupied by German troops and field artillery and rescue by the Royal Navy would have had to be in the night. Plans to attempt it were made but weather conditions made the improbable impossible.
      Also the 51st were very unlucky in their opponent – the German commander was Erwin Rommel whose actions to reach the coast at St Valery to effect the cutting-off were exceptional.
      Can I emphasise that I am not defending the British Command or Churchill – just noting that there are factors which are not always taken into account when forming a judgement on historical events.

    175. Sarah says:

      @ Tinto and peter: That book sounds especially interesting, being in Gaelic originally. A neighbour showed us a letter written by his grandfather, I think, in the 1890’s to a son in Australia – the English section was matter-of-fact but the Gaelic section was completely different – it felt epic as if the language opened up a larger scale of feeling.

      peter: as Mrs peter we have chatted about this and other decisions e.g. the nuclear bombs on Japan. It is always complicated – the more I learn the less sure I am about anything! Would everyone have been better off if we hadn’t tackled Germany?

    176. Tinto Chiel says:

      @peter: I quite agree that “it was thought a matter of vital importance that France continue fighting and be persuaded not to seek an armistice” as far as Churchill was concerned but that may well have been the very reason the HD was abandoned. History is rarely pure and never simple, though, as old Oscar didn’t quite say, which is why we can keep arguing about it πŸ™‚ .

      I find it more suspicious that Churchill said a lot less than De Gaulle in recognising the service and sacrifice of the Scottish troops: compare the massive propaganda job done on the ignominious defeat at Dunkirk to convert it into a quasi-victory, when (barely mentioned) many French soldiers died covering the British retreat, incidentally.

      And I won’t even mention Saul David’s “Churchill’s Sacrifice of The Highland Division” which wears its heart on its sleeve somewhat πŸ˜‰ , (Brassey’s, 2004). It’s useful for first-hand opinions on the loss of the division and the question of its “sacrifice”.

      Sorry about the late reply but we had unexpected visitors in the back garden this afternoon and irradiating them with polonium and spraying their nibbles with bleach to eradicate any infection took quite a while.

      Ahoo, werewolves of London!

    177. Tinto Chiel says:

      This song allegedly gets its title because George Harrison’s handrwiting for his guitar solo bridge on the track was read wrongly:

    178. Tinto Chiel says:

      And it usually makes me smile and think of this, as any right-thinking taxpayer should:

    179. Tinto Chiel says:

      Afore I go to catch up with murder and mayhem in my Sopranos box set, I leave you this:

      Lyrics available if you click on *Show More* option.

      Pure peotry!

    180. JGedd says:

      Just dropped in to say thank you to Tinto@ 13 June, 12.08 am

      I liked the throwaway remark – ‘ all I have to offer..’ Well, only the great John Coltrane. Thanks for the link. Have to confess that I don’t have a lot of John Coltrane in my listening archive. That’s been adjusted now. What control and mastery – a great musician.

      I didn’t want to put up the whole Monterey set since I thought it was a bit of a cheek on my part. But we would always listen to the whole album not just one track, hence why the LP is now unplayable after all these years. ( I mean decades.) He died in his forties after suffering from heart problems which had already curtailed his career before he had a fatal attack. He was, however, very influential.

      By the way, you have heard Don Ellis before if you have watched The French Connection. Don Ellis did the score.

    181. Sarah says:

      @ Tinto: that’s my winter reading sorted out!

    182. Tinto Chiel says:

      @JGedd: glad you liked the JC so much. I didn’t notice who wrote the score for The French Connection at the time because I didn’t like the film at all for some reason (especially Gene Hackman’s character). Very sad such a talented innovator as Don died so young.

      @Sarah: if lockdown continues, you might be finished your new reading by autumn πŸ™‚ . I’ve gone right down the rabbit-hole on the Spanish Civil war and am one my fifth title at the moment.

    183. Brian Doonthetoon says:

      I have nothing to contribute ‘at the merment’ but I am keeping a watching brief…

    184. Brian Doonthetoon says:

      Well, I will offer this. Because time for a reprise of ‘Hey Tuttie tatie’…

    185. Brian Doonthetoon says:

      That rendition always make my eyes over-lubricate…

    186. Brian Doonthetoon says:

      It’s known all over Europe.

      It should really be an independent Scotland’s National anthem.

    187. Brian Doonthetoon says:

      And one more rendition for tonight…

    188. Brian Doonthetoon says:

      Och, two more, and that’s me for me pit…

    189. Tinto Chiel says:

      @BDTT: hay fever trouble? Me too πŸ˜‰ .

      I chanced upon an otherwise boring YouTube piece of footage about Monaco a few weeks back and they were playing that march at a royal occasion, funnily enough.

      Re national anthem, I’d rather have SWH any day than a groovy modern “inclusive” one designed by a committee packed with Meeja Types Innit? headed by Pat Kane after some intensive focus-grouping but that will be our fate one day, no doubt, ignoring an ancient tune and words by a world-renowned poet for some piece of superficial, milquetoast aural flim-flam which couldn’t possibly offend anyone on the planet.

      *”Harrumph of The Day” over*

      Shouldn’t have had that roasted cheese for my supper last night….

      I feel better now.

    190. Clapper57 says:

      Just popping in to say Hi…

      Hope everyone is well….

      Have a nice day πŸ™‚

    191. Tinto Chiel says:

      Re Spanish Civil War and all that, the lyrics for this old tune were written by Alex McDade, a Glaswegian worker who fought in the British Battalion of the International Brigade and was sadly killed at the Battle of Brunete in 1937:

      Non-squares among you in the late 50s might have even danced to it in another guise:

    192. Brian Doonthetoon says:

      Hi TC.

      Back in the late 70s, when Pete and I started our residency at “The Bowlin’ Ally” as ‘Deepwater Disco’, the President of the Students’ Representative Council was a guy, whom I had known from around 1970, when his future wife and ‘ma best girl’ at the time were besties.

      Onnyhoo, he was one of the ‘movers and shakers’ in the Dundee Labour Party at that time (late 70s/early 80s) and we often found ourselves providing a disco for Labour Party parties at his hoose, “for all you can drink”.

      That track by The Laggan was a “must play” but I got away with playing these two.

    193. Dan says:

      A few short 2min vids from Egypt where reforms over the past 5 years have seen them building various large projects with input from China.
      The scale immediately struck me. Wow!
      They used their army to build stuff which will feed people which seems a fine use of their time when compared to fighting and killing folk.

      Tilapia fish farming

      Large scale greenhouse for veg production

    194. Tinto Chiel says:

      @Brian: I submit the Foster & Allen classic shows you’re just a big softie.

      I’ve never heard that very cheeky “reworking” at all. Don’t suppose you know whether your LP friend voted Yes in 2014? Or was he of the Purring George Galloway Freedom For All Workers Of The World (except for viewers in Scotland) Tendency?

      Hope Pete is well (and your good self), obvs.

    195. Brian Doonthetoon says:

      Hi TC.

      I just thought that playing sounds that mentioned “Maggie” at a LP function was a tad satirical, back in the day.

      I believe he is still “of the Purring George Galloway Freedom For All Workers Of The World (except for viewers in Scotland) Tendency”, although his brother and family are Yessers, although not particularly enamoured of the SNP in the past few years – something to do with funding for a youth project, I think.

      Pete is well and putting on weight (I before E, except after C but there are exceptions) so he’s happy. I’ve been staying around 12 stone since lockdown so my meds doses would seem to be on the right track.

      Music: This is a fine wee track which I bought, played at the discos and consigned to oblivion. Can’t remember if I’ve posted it here previously.

      Have a look at the comments at the YouTube page.

    196. Dan says:

      300 years of Union might go some way to explaining why our history is a mystery…

    197. Brian Doonthetoon says:

      This was another one that my intervention of actually playing it to audiences consigned it to the remainder bins.

      A cracker of a single…

    198. Brian Doonthetoon says:


      It’s quite interesting reading the comments at the YouTube pages for those more ‘obscure’ tracks. I followed up the next two from The Dylans – makes interesting reading.

    199. Brian Doonthetoon says:

      Hi Dan.

      When I finally got to IndyLiveRadio, by clicking various links from your

      link, I got music that I couldn’t switch off, which obliterated the history podcast, episode 1. I’ve bookmarked the podcast page so I’ll try again later.

    200. Tinto Chiel says:

      @BDTT: That Paranoid’s single could easily have been at least a one hit wonder. I’d never heard The Dylans’ track before, to my shame, but really enjoyed it: shades of Who’s That Girl?, at least to my strange ears.

      Glad you’re both fine.

      @Dan: at least Stuart McHardy takes no prisoners. I can’t imagine his career has been made any easier by his anti-Yoon stance. Hope he revisits some of his material in “Scotland’s Future History”.

    201. Tinto Chiel says:

      Forgot to attach a fine example of a Phil Spector-style treatment:

    202. Brian Doonthetoon says:

      Hi TC.

      I think my last typing for tonight – I need a nosebag.

      Can’t remember if I’ve posted these two from the mid 70s here, in the past.

      The first featured a guy from Glasgow called Henderson Gibson (an over-qualified member of “the surname clan”).

      A backup story is after the music link. The track was a huge hit in Europe – it was a #1 in Germany – but I played it regularly, which meant it bombed in the UK.

      The second is one I played regularly, which guaranteed its failure to make a mark in the UK but it sounds excellent (to me).

      And as a bonus, here they are doing it live on “New Faces”…
      BTW: it’s worth letting the video continue after their performance, to get the comments from the panel. You have to ask, “What went wrong with their career?”

    203. Tinto Chiel says:

      @BDTT: shocked by the explicit s*xual content of those numbers, frankly πŸ™‚

      And where was the Yoof vote on the panel?

      Ted Ray…….*shakes head ruefully*

    204. Tinto Chiel says:

      Beautiful day here, so I’m going to blot out the sun and give you the chills:

    205. Tinto Chiel says:

      And back into the light:

      Mofftae dibble my borders.

    206. Tinto Chiel says:

      Lunch and back to the dark side:

      “She’s a witch of trouble in electric blue,

      In her own mad mind she’s in love with you.”

      Hope this does not cause painful flashbacks for some gentlemen commenters…..

    207. JGedd says:


      ‘Mofftae dibble my borders.’

      How disgusting. I hope you don’t offend the neighbours. That kind of activity is surely for indoors.

      When you are done dibbling, here is something cool and tranquil I heard this morning for the first time in ages by the late Bill Evans.

      Have it with a long, cold drink.

    208. Tinto Chiel says:

      @JGedd: re dibbling, don’t worry. As Kenneth Williams used to say, “They can’t touch you for it.”

      That Peace Piece is a real late-night dreamy composition with a touch of melancholy but I’ve never heard it before. The rocking motion is like a cradle song. I’d only heard of BE because of his personal troubles and association with Miles D. I think I’ll play it again tonight with a long drink of responsible units and anti-malarial fluid while I stare at the night sky. Even in the “new normal” they can’t touch you for that either (yet).

      Did you hear the track on a jazz radio station?

    209. Brian Doonthetoon says:

      Hi TC.

      For some reason, as soon as The La’s started, it reminded me of the song below, where Paul Revere & The Raiders do to Donovan, what The Byrds did to Dylan.

    210. JGedd says:

      Tinto @ 18 June, 2.30pm

      ‘Did you hear the track on a jazz radio station?’

      No it was on Radio 3, in their version played by Jean-Yves Thibaudet who is usually a classical soloist but many classical musicians play jazz for relaxation.

      Here is more – though not jazz – of what I think of as night music to go with your tipple of choice.

      I like to listen to this strange, mysterious music at night too. It’s by Erik Satie, who was a strange eccentric himself. He used to play piano in a bohemian bar and always wore evening dress which eventually went green from age. (He was half-Scottish which may – or may not – explain a lot and is why he acquired the middle name of Leslie.)

      There are 6 Gnossiennes and most people will have heard at least one of them, usually used as backing tracks on film probably because of their mysterious sensuousness. His mercurial, chaotic personality and way of life certainly fits the common perception of the bohemian artist. Like Bill Evans, it was alcohol that did for him in the end, though with Satie, it was absinthe.

    211. Tinto Chiel says:

      @Brian: your description was spot on, me old haricot! Brilliant.

      @JGedd: I think Radio 3 can be quite broad-minded now πŸ™‚ , despite seeming to have a weird anti-Bax policy for many years. I think they didn’t like an Englishman giving in to the Celtic Twilight!

      Are you telepathic, hee, hee? I heard the first Gnossienne in some BBC programme in the 60s and had a strange moment soon after one day, replaying it in my head while watching some birds circling in the sky and watching some Scots pines stirring slowly in the wind. I suppose I discovered a feeling of melancholy as all my senses came together. His music often has that effect on me, like watching Motherwell.

      Didn’t Satie order four identical three-piece suits and have two grand pianos, one on top of the other, in his apartment? I’m not going to blame his Scottish mother because most French artists of the 19th c. were very eccentric and didn’t give a flying fruit bat about anything, e.g. Rimbaud, Flaubert, Verlaine and many, many more.

      Anyhoos, re late-night “music of the spheres” chilling (and nae doobies, btw, as Frank McAvennie would say) you mustn’t forget The Old Man, as I’m sure you would agree:

    212. peter says:

      Re St Valery
      You are right, the St Valery surrender and the captivity of ten thousand men was something the authorities did not wish to publicise at the time [understandable] and have chosen not to remember after the war [shameful].
      It is certainly remembered here in Wester Ross, where a number of events commemorated.
      Re National Anthem, are lyrics essential?

    213. Clapper57 says:

      @ Brian Doonthetoon

      Hi Brian apologies I only just saw your correction on MT on my STV/ITV mistake comment….I wisnae ignoring it (your correction) but I just missed it.

      However I did see that RepSCotland also caught this error and corrected me …so I only responded to him.

      So that’s my excuse…apart from ignorance…I was rabid hence overlong rant on MT…Lol

      Bet there is a strong BritNat ‘Unionist’ element running through them (STV) though….that’s my Get out of Jail card…Lol

      Have a nice evening

    214. Tinto Chiel says:

      Hi, peter: “It is certainly remembered here in Wester Ross, where a number of events commemorated.” Delighted to hear that and long may it continue. My respect for these men is great.

      I don’t think lyrics are needed for a national anthem. For fairly obvious reasons, Spain’s does not have words (too divisive after the SCW) and ditto some FYR republics for similar reasons.

      WE have to be independent first, of course, and there’s the rub.

    215. Brian Doonthetoon says:

      Hi Clapper57.

      The history of STV Group is quite interesting (at the link I supplied at 2:38pm).

      They once owned The Herald!

    216. Brian Doonthetoon says:

      Hi TC.

      “WE have to be independent first, of course, and there’s the rub.”

      Would that be reference to the rabid unionist barstewards?

    217. Clapper57 says:

      @ Brian Doonthetoon @ 7.48pm

      Cheers Brian… πŸ™‚

    218. Tinto Chiel says:

      @BDTT 7.52: possibly, old fruit, but we both know the only answer is:


    219. Brian Doonthetoon says:

      Hi Clapper57.

      STV should make more use of Bernard Ponsonby. Could you imagine a ‘Scottish Question Time’ with him as chair? I don’t think he would stand for p!$h and prevarication.

      He’s like a terrier wi’ a bone!

    220. JGedd says:


      Hadn’t realised until you brought it up, that I haven’t heard Bax on the Beeb for years. In fact, I can’t remember when. There seems to have been a similar partial embargo on Michael Tippett for some time now as well. It will probably be to do with the tastes of a small set who decide on who is in or out.

      As for Bach, who is of course, God, I remember hearing an old interview with – I think – Beecham, who was recalling being taken as a child to his first concert by an aunt. She was careful to tell him beforehand about the music they would be hearing and told him that in the first half, they would hear JS bach who was a very important composer but he was left in no doubt that the second half would be devoted to music by Handel who – he was told firmly – was the greatest of all composers. That was the received opinion then, at the end of the Victorian era.

      I love Handel, too, but if I were forced to decide I would reverse Beecham’s auntie’s fixed opinion though I hate having a league table of composers. It’s absurd but it’s all about imposition of taste by those who regard themselves as ‘influencers’.

      I didn’t know about the stacked pianos but I believe it. There are plenty of bizarre anecdotes about Satie but the others you mention ,too, were a few bats short of a pandemic. (Does that even work?) You made me laugh with that comment about Verlaine, Rimbaud etc. So you think it’s the French then?

      As for Motherwell, I don’t follow football but I feel your pain.

      You’ve now captured me with The Art of Fugue. That’s my evening gone. You can’t just listen to a bleeding chunk. (My turn to set up with the medicinal cocktail that wards off the malarial parasite. Why are we talking in riddles, by the way?)

      Cheers, old fruit bat!

    221. Tinto Chiel says:

      @JGedd: influencers, gatekeepers, call them what you will but they control access to media, publishing, everything really. Try writing a book with a Scottish theme/setting/historical content which isn’t Yoon-friendly and you can whistle for it.

      Tippett is easier to explain, I think, because he was gay and a pacifist at a time when it was deeply unacceptable. He just didn’t write enough “I Love The Royal Family” music, unlike others πŸ˜‰ .

      I’ve got French in the family and thank God they think differently from most countries when it comes to authority and conforming. We could take a lesson from them. We’re a pretty timid bunch *gnashes teeth*.

      Clouding over here but I may have a tincture all the same now.

      Cheers yourself!

    222. Clapper57 says:

      @ Brian Doonthetoon @ 8.18pm

      Indeed Brian…do you remember that surreal interview he did with that Defence minister with the huge head…(he resigned amid allegation of inappropriate and lewd comments towards Andrea Leadsom)…oh dear desperate he must have been…Lol…..and Bernard was not taking the usual fudge response as an answer when he asked Fallon about whether anything stopping MOD shipbuilding on the Clyde if Scotland were to become independent…and the defence secretary’s PA/press officer interrupted and stopped the interview….cause Fallon would not give specific answer but Bernard kept asking…Lol.

      Just remembered who it was… Michael Fallon….humongous head he has…

      Bernard said to PA ” Do you want to do the interview instead”….Lol….

      Bernard was taking NO prisoners that day….also his infamous interview with Ross Thompson on Bedroom tax…Oh my God….

      Yep Bernard seems to have been spirited away as main interviewer and some female biddy (useless) now interviews politicians at WM for STV….what is he doing now ?

    223. Clapper57 says:

      @ Me @ 10.27pm

      “Just remembered who it was… Michael Fallon….humongous head he has”

      Hence I added his Surname onto the paragraphs above that comment ya ken …..

      Re Huge Heid…that reminds me of Mike Myers Scots character in the film ‘So I married an axe murderer’ where he said one of his son’s had a HUGE HEID….and when Myer’s character was watching telly his HUGE HEID son was blocking his view and Mike’s character shouted…”Heid… Doon”….Lol

    224. Clapper57 says:

      Brian I SHOULD have went into your links BEFORE I wrote my comment as your second link was the FALLON interview…Doh !

      Having a bad day…not another one..Lol


    225. Ian Brotherhood says:

      @TC (6.30) –

      ‘…like watching Motherwell.’

      πŸ™‚ πŸ™‚ πŸ™‚

    226. Brian Doonthetoon says:

      Hi Clapper57.

      An emoji with a wink and a tongue sticking out!


    227. Sarah says:

      @ Tinto 16th June at 11.15 p.m.: Sorry for belated response but it is the growing season here – largely of the “wrong” plants – and it has taken me 3 days to plant 6 courgettes as I get diverted by weed control, re-homing snails, pulling up grass for sheep etc etc.

      So not much time for reading – except a book loaned to me by a very nice man who has been repairing Clachan church roof for our local trust. Peter and I have been his unskilled labour force recently. It is about Angus Macdonald [of Glencoe] who joined Hudson bay Company in 1828 and married a Nez Perce tribe Indian – “Glencoe and the Indians” by James Grant. The book compares the dispossession of Highlanders and that of the Native Americans – MacDonald’s family escaped the Glencoe Massacre and his wife’s tribe were the victims of something similar in the 1870’s. Plus ca change..

    228. Clapper57 says:

      @ Brian Doonthetoon @ 10.53pm

      Thanks… 8=)

    229. Tinto Chiel says:

      @Ian B: β€˜β€¦like watching Motherwell.’

      Cheap shot I know but 58 years of trauma is a bugger.

      “It’s the hope that kills you,” said some clever punter.

      Doesn’t affect me, affect me, affect me πŸ˜‰ .

    230. Clapper57 says:

      Oh My God..I messed it up…well Brian enjoy the number plus the equals sign and the forward bracket as in 8=)…..Lol

      Brian There is no teaching me…I am the dumbest of the dumbest…dumb blonde I be….badge of honour….Lol

      Stay safe and hope the sun is shining wherever you are tomorrow.

    231. Tinto Chiel says:

      @Sarah: your comment suddenly appeared out of sequence after I replied to Ian’s, for some reason.

      Re those slugs of yours: I was up two nights ago at about 0100hrs with a fit of the sneezes. I took my wee pill and looked out the bedroom window and saw torchlight playing around my neighbour’s garden. Burglars? Willie Rennie searching for a principle? No, it was the guy next door searching for slugs around his veg patch and brutally killing any he found in a cup of water.

      At least Angus MacDonald’s story was quite uplifting: what gets me is the Scots who emigrated to America post ’45 (like Flora MacDonald) and ended up on the wrong side of history during the American Wars of Independence. What were they smoking in them days?

    232. Dan says:

      Sarah. Re. Slug prevention. One of the two used vehicle tyre chomping machines in Scotland was broken during lockdown Phase Whatevs.
      This resulted in my mate’s garage having a large stock to choose from. So I grabbed a load of big diameter but low profile yins to create wind protecting enclosures around my multitude of various squash plants.
      Locate them over each plant and make sure they are well seated on the soil, this means the slug would have to climb up the tread then round and down inside the tyre to get to the plant, but the best bit is you can have a moat of water on the sidewall nearest the soil they won’t cross. πŸ˜‰

      Runner beans plants are flowering and some are over six feet high now. No sign of the flea beetles that normally hit the first flower flush hard.

    233. Sarah says:

      Tinto and Dan: Loved the idea of Willie Rennie looking for a principle – you are an optimist, Tinto!

      Dan, you’re right that moats are a much better answer than killing the poor slugs and snails. And the tyre shelter is good too – amazing what a difference wind protection makes. You have fun improvising, don’t you! But don’t tell me about your runner beans flowering already, please – ours aren’t even thinking about it yet being only 15″ high.

      I don’t kill anything except NZ flatworm because they are non-native killers of earthworms. Slugs I generally leave where they are as some of them eat pests [leopard slugs – grey with dark markings] and others break down compost in the soil, apparently, and snails I take some distance away where I hope they won’t find their way back tho’ I know they do have a homing instinct!- we have a croft so have the space to do this. They are rather sweet when they have their feelers out – like Brian – the Magic Roundabout Brian not BDTT!

      But it maddens me that the slugs and snails have plenty of grass and other plants to feed on so why murder my innocent, precious seedlings? There’s no excuse.

      Also maddens me that garden centres are stuffed with poisons. Lunacy!

    234. Dan says:

      Antique book for sale on FB. I do not know seller but thought advert may be of interest to some.


    235. CameronB Brodie says:

      I’m sorry if I’ve been a bit pushy lately, but I’m trained to resist authoritarianism through a respect for the semiotic/legal foundations of liberal democracy. So it simply would not be rational for me not to make use of these skills, which are geared towards promoting inclusive sustainability. Trying to at least bring them to the attention of the readers, is me trying to be niece, believe it or not.

      DJ Cummerbund – Mundian To Bach Nu

    236. Tinto Chiel says:

      @Dan 8.11: it’s an excellent book containing many first-hand accounts of the dreadful behaviour of Cumberland’s army. You don’t need to shell out for an original copy if you or anyone wishes to read it. A modern reprint can be bought for about Β£15 on A____n.

      It’s one of these books which are essentially just photocopies of an old edition within a glossy modern cover but it does the job.

    237. Brian Doonthetoon says:

      Hi CameronB Brodie.

      You typed,
      Trying to at least bring them to the attention of the readers, is me trying to be niece, believe it or not.

      Having met you more than once, I was convinced that you were presenting as ‘male’.
      However, I fully support your gender reassignment, as far as your uncle goes, onnyhoo.
      Was their any specific reason that caused you to give up being a nephew?

      Curious, Dundee.

    238. Brian Doonthetoon says:


      “their” should be “there”! 0/10 for proofreading…

    239. CameronB Brodie says:

      Brian Doonthetoon
      That about sums it mate. πŸ™‚

    240. CameronB Brodie says:

      Here’s a bit of stuff though, that might be of interest to some.

      The Gerontologist, Volume 58, Issue 4, August 2018, Pages 730–738, 27 June 2017
      Identity, Semiotics, and Use of Symbols in Adult Day Services

    241. Tinto Chiel says:

      Something for all you Jacobites out there. I have pure consulted my Collins Gem dictionary so you don’t have to…….

      Tramp wanders the countryside, singing for his supper and happily sleeping with the elves in the woods (!). Local rich lady is out the next day and so he only gets some rice from her flunkey. Becomes increasingly faint and is eventually picked up by The Fuzz (les moustaches). He can’t face incarceration so kills himself with the string he uses as a coat belt. His ghost then returns to wandering the countryside singing, even happier now he can no longer feel hunger. And all sung in a very jaunty fashion and from the fillum of the same name: How very French!

      And no, I have not been hitting the magic mushrooms…..

      Soffisticates among you may notice the slightly longer orchestral introduction in this version πŸ˜‰ .

    242. Tinto Chiel says:

      This was the B side of “I Feel Free”. At the time I didn’t understand what it had to do with a superior German make of car.

      Of course, I was young, lovely and innocent in them days……

    243. Tinto Chiel says:

      Think it’s late enough for this:

    244. CameronB Brodie says:

      I’ve been thinking. If the SNP’s ‘progressive’ wing can believe that trans-women are actually women, and that DNA is primarily a product of social construction, I can choose what I believe in too. πŸ˜‰

      DJ Cummerbund – I Believe In A Pony

      P.S. it isn’t possible to be “progressive” without a legal respect for the biological differences between the sexes.

    245. Clapper57 says:

      Started of nice in Edinburgh today…now dulling over…a bit like some of the ‘not so nice’ peeps on MT…. πŸ˜‰

      Hope everyone who visits Off Topic is keeping well….

      Have a nice day…. πŸ™‚

      BTW agree or disagree….the News is now getting like…WTF NOW !!!

    246. Tinto Chiel says:

      @Clapper57: weather shocking here so puttin up the trellis will have to wait. Looks like it’s coming you way……

      This lockdown is having a terrible effect on me. I’m getting all soft and sentimental. This dropped into my YouTube gander-bag this morning for some reason and now I can’t get it out of my head:

      Warning: may cause “hay fever” πŸ˜‰ .

    247. Clapper57 says:

      @ Tinto Chiel @ 12.02pm

      Weather here now okay….so bad weather did not materialise….YET

      However I WILL WAIT and see if it does come ….as per the name of the song you linked…. πŸ˜‰

      Hope your day has been not too bad…if it has been a wee bit of a washout …hope your evening turns out better….

      Stay Safe

    248. Sarah says:

      Just popped in to avoid seeing all Dogbiscuits comments.

      @ Tinto: What car traffic in that youtube song clip of Paris pre-war, Tinto! I always thought it was only when cars became relatively cheap in the 50s that such numbers appeared on the roads. And weren’t the cars stylish? The first car my father had in the 1950’s was a Wolsey 12 [I think] – anyway, it had running boards and was black, of course!

      Coincidentally have watched a couple of films set in pre-war Paris this week: William Powell in “Man of the World” – I hadn’t realised what a great and serious actor he was. [Watched his “My man Godfrey” too – he was excellent and interesting serious storyline tho’ some of the “character” parts were odd.] A Gary Cooper/Marlene Dietrich one and a Randolph Scott/Fred Astaire “Roberta” – latter poor on the whole. But the point is, Paris was a popular setting for films in the 30’s. Not that surprising, I suppose :).

      Weather here has been dry and warm but rain starting now. As are the midges…

      @ Dan, just to let you know my runner beans are now beginning to think of having a flower in a week or so. πŸ™‚

    249. Sarah says:

      @ Capella: see what I did with my:) and then :)! You are not alone…

    250. Sarah says:

      Er – now I am confused. Just when I thought I’d cracked that smiley thing.

    251. Dan says:

      Leave a gap on either side of your : and ) πŸ˜‰

      Good news on your bean flowers. My runner beans are a mass of red and even a few small beans after the weekend rain.
      The tatties are flowering now and plants are strong at the moment with the warmth and rain. Just don’t want any blight to set in early.
      The Oca plant has perked up and looking much happier now. Whether it will produce me some kind of Yam tuber I don’t know.
      Tomato plants… well I’d rather not remind myself as disappointing but hoping for a sprint flying finish.

      Was out on Saturday nicht for the Solstice. The nichts are fair drawin’ in noo. Winter is coming… πŸ™

    252. Tinto Chiel says:

      @Sarah 9.25: I sent that clip to my old climbing pal who is a bit of a Francophile and he said the same thing about the traffic. French cars were pretty stylish then, some of the Citroens especially but Panhards were just weird. Can’t beat a good running board.

      “My Man Godfrey” was an early piece of lockdown viewing for me and I really enjoyed it. I’ll try to track down MOTW. When I was a nipper I liked Powell in The Thin Man films with Myrna Loy and Skippy. They did a lot of drinking in those days!

      Anyhow, this is 55 years old and bang up to date:

      Warning: contains an intellectual.

    253. CameronB Brodie says:

      Brexit insists British constitutional law no longer needs to take account of the moral identity of those living in Scotland, thereby demoting the Scottish identity to the legal status of being sub-English. Thus a nation is written out of history, and a fascist state empowered through right-wing (white) populist nationalism.

      DJ Cummerbund – Want U Freak

    254. Sarah says:

      @ Dan: thanks for the smiley advice. Here goes : ) !!

      Blight is a worry as it is so warm and humid and the tattie haulms so lush. Fingers crossed. I’m sure your tomatoes will come good – there’s plenty of time left despite the sun now going backwards.
      Oca sounds interesting – despite being NZ born and having millions, well dozens, of relatives there, I hadn’t heard of oca so I looked it up on Thompson & Morgan’s site. How strange that it waits for several months before doing anything tuber-wise – perhaps that is why yours wasn’t showing much activity. I look forward to hearing how it crops and eats.

      @ Tinto: wow, James Lambert was very impressive. But so sad that USA is still a nightmare for black people. The “Glencoe and the Indians” book I mentioned a few days ago said the Nez Perce tribe were sent to the Indian territory where they were expected to settle down with another rehomed tribe, the Cherokees. The author said the place was 2000 miles from their homes – like sending Scots and Caesar!nians to live together in Ukraine. Sadly, the USA hasn’t improved over the last 140 years.

      I don’t want to give the game away but if you are looking for a cheerful evening, don’t choose MOTW! I too used to enjoy the Thin Man films when I was a nipper and thought all William Powell roles were like that hence my surprise recently. No histrionics, very quiet and subtle yet powerful.

    255. CameronB Brodie says:

      I thought that might happen. Think of your smiley as a word, and use normal grammatical spacing. So you need a space before the smiley and following the smiley, but no space between the : an ). Mkay? πŸ™‚

    256. JGedd says:

      Wildly Off-Topic;
      But doesn’t Peter Murrell in the photograph on MT look very like Colin Robinson, the vampire who bores people to death, in What We Do In The Shadows?

      Ok. Just me then.

      See y’all.

    257. Tinto Chiel says:

      @Sarah: it’s even better if MOTW isn’t all Doris Day. Suits my mood at the mo.

      On the bright side, occasionally the American government’s treatment of the Native American rebounded on them. It unknowingly relocated people like the Apache and Hopi to parts of Arizona with lots of natural resources like gas. Cue much retrospective gnashing of teeth by the big corporations, made even worse because the NAs aren’t extracting/exploiting them.

      Baldwin was an impressive speaker but my favourite is Frederick Douglass, every racist’s nightmare: intelligent, eloquent, fearless and he even married a white woman after his first wife died. His anti-slavery tours of Scotland in the 1840s and 50s were sell-outs: wottaguy!

      @JGeddd: *strokes chin* mmm, I see what you mean……

      It’s dry and sunny here so off to fight with a trellis πŸ™‚

    258. JGedd says:

      Hope everyone is having a great day.

      I was listening to this today. Thought it an appropriate piece for all sun worshippers by Danish composer Carl Nielsen. It’s a virtual sunburst. No one appreciates the sun like dwellers in northern climes. Tapsaff for Helios.

    259. Tinto Chiel says:

      @JG: never heard that before but I really enjoyed it, though still laughing at the various btl comments about speed. Maybe it should go about the speed of Strauss’ Alpine Symphony to give the sunrise some majesty, but I don’t know what Nielsen said in the score.

      Btw: Tinto 1, Trellis 0 πŸ˜‰ .

    260. Sarah says:

      @ Cameron BB: cheers. I’m sure I’ll now get it right next time. πŸ™‚

      @Tinto: Congratulations on the trellis. You will enjoy looking at it and feeling so proud!

      I’m pretty sure MOTW has no Doris Day at all.

      That was great news about the Hopi and Apache in Arizona. I’m just surprised that the corporations haven’t got the politicians to amend the law so the NA’s aren’t allowed to keep control of their area.

      Frederick Douglass sounds a good topic for The National – there may be others who are as ignorant as me about him.

    261. Tinto Chiel says:

      @Sarah: congrats on your smiley. I always knew Dan and CBB would come in useful one day πŸ˜‰ .

      I was congratulating myself on my gardening handicraft until I vaguely remembered a Round The Horne Kenneth Williams joke about having a climber up his trellis.

      Re the Apache and Hopi: the law can work both ways. It’s a sobering thought that a place as beautiful and spiritual as Sedona could have ended up like Grangemouth if the Federal Govt. hadn’t shovelled those peoples onto “worthless” land. Karma, ya bass!

      FD, like Thos. Muir, would make a fantastic subject for a blockbuster fillum. They reason it’s never happened for either is probably the same. FD’s Wiki entry is actually quite good.

      Just discovered MOTW on YT: half-way through this delightfully cynical tale of blackmail. Think I’ll order a Homburg from A____n.

    262. JGedd says:

      Glad you liked it, Tinto, and congrats on your trellis. Man triumphs over adversity – and bits of wood – again.

      (You’re right about the comments. Coming out of any classical concert, you’ll always hear some git behind you moaning about the tempi in the first/second/third/last movement being too fast/slow – or bloodless(?) as I heard once. Don’t know about Nielsen’s markings on the score but have to say, I have heard it played slower and it sounded lugubrious and heavy, deadening the brilliance of the horn section sound. More like a hot, sultry day with a migraine instead of a celebration of summer sun in the Med. )

      Frederick Douglass and his reception in Scotland deserves to be better known. I don’t know enough about him except the bare facts – which are impressive enough – and I mean to rectify that. He wrote more than one autobiography and I would like to track them down.

    263. JGedd says:


      What does MOTW mean, for the love of Mike. Is that one of those things again which everyone else in the world knows except me?

    264. CameronB Brodie says:

      Sorry if I’ve concerned folk, who might have felt I was hostile to the cause, but I’m the real deal. I suppose its’ my fault for not being able to be more clear about where I was coming from, right from the start.

      Thing is, I’d forgotten how to put all this stuff together, in the run-up to indy ’14, and the information environment wasn’t conducive either. It all appears to be coming together now though, so I’m sorry but I’m going to carry on supporting the cause through ethical rationalism and a respect for international law.

      DJ Cummerbund – Ms. Chicken House

    265. Michael McCabe says:

      Man of Total Wisdom

    266. Tinto Chiel says:

      Morning Michael: how are you? Any music to post?

      @JG: it’s Man of The World, a fillum wot Sarah mentioned above, so nothing kinky πŸ™‚ .

      Having said Douglass’ Wiki page is good, it omits mention of his Scotland tour, I think, though England and Ireland are referenced. Of course, some Americans still use the term England to mean the UK, the silly sossages, and that may be the reason.

      There’s an expensive Embra Yooni book by A. Pettinger on FD I’ve never read and Scotland and also this:,again%20in%201859%20and%201860.

      Looks like a day for my Bri-Nylon saltire-spangled mankini…….

      “You lucky people!” he Max Millered.

    267. Michael McCabe says:

      No music Tinto just dropped in to say hello and hope you are all keeping well
      ? ? ??????? ?

    268. CameronB Brodie says:

      Michael McCabe
      Nice to see you pop in and hope you’re keeping well. πŸ˜‰

    269. Tinto Chiel says:

      @Michael: all ok here. Hope you and yours are all well.

      Roasting, intit? This bunch just got fired:

    270. Michael McCabe says:

      Cameron B and Tinto. The Edinburgh posse is doing well and are looking forward to seeing you all at the next march or wings night out. Whichever comes first.
      Until the then stay safe and well.
      Tinto if you are still in touch with Smallaxe pass on my regards please.
      And all the best to those I have not mentioned but they know who they are.

    271. Tinto Chiel says:

      @Michael: will do but I think he drops in here occasionally to monitor quality and occasionally receive spiritual sustenance πŸ™‚ .

      A good march would be nice…..

    272. Clapper57 says:

      Ooooh lucky me managed to squeeze a comment onto MT in-between all the arguments of t’others.

      Anyways….waste of time really…..

      Hope everyone had nice day today in the sun….burn…Lol

      Stay safe everyone and hopefully will meet some of you in the future at a Wings night out…faces put to names…..some fabby people on here…especially in Off Topic.

      Have a nice evening tonight and subsequent days/evenings and keep on keeping on….


    273. Ian Brotherhood says:

      Hoots to the bold MMcC!


      Clapper57, missed yer MT comment, must go back and check.


    274. Brian Doonthetoon says:

      Hi peeps.

      Long time, no comment.

      Hi Mr McCabe and the Edinburgh posse.

      Onnyhoo, I’ve just started watching this video, uploaded by the (RIP) owner of Groucho’ Record Shop in Dundee, Breeks Brodie.
      You either allocate 2 hours of your prime time to watching it, or do what I’m doing, watching it in logical chunks. I’ve just paused it after a performance of “Hermless”, vocals by St Andrew of The Woollen Mill, with Mike Marra on piano.
      The video is well worth a watch.

    275. Michael McCabe says:

      Hi Brian Doonthetoon hope you and yours are keeping well and the same for Pete the Camera and all his. ? ? ??????? ?
      See you at the next meet up.

    276. Sarah says:

      Past the time for “nice” marches, I am very sorry to say. How on earth are we going to get out from a state organised by Dominic Cummings? Where the hell are the old-style half-decent Tories like Willie Whitelaw? I’m fairly sure he and his ilk would have had no truck with the current crew let alone having a hired psychopath run the show.

      I think we will have to start critical marches to Holyrood and stir Holyrood up with petitions on constitutional matters. We simply can’t remain at the mercy of Westminster.

      Sorry to intrude this on Off Topic but here my valuable opinions won’t get spoilt by Dogb!

    277. Brian Doonthetoon says:

      Hi peeps.

      Hi Sarah! (Waves!)

      I’ve just watched another segment of the Breeks Brodie video I gave the link for on the 26th June.

      This carried on from where I’d paused and featured Mike Marra doing “The Barnyards Of Delgatay” and The Associates doing “The Crying Game”.
      Good stuff!
      Well worth a watch.

    278. Sarah says:

      Hi BDTT: “Hermless” is my pick for our National Anthem!!

    279. CameronB Brodie says:

      Have you considered….it might not be suitable to project power and rationality, which is the sort of things traditional states do. I’m not sure we should follow tradition but we do need to think of what future generations will think of us. πŸ˜‰

      Michael Marra & Mick McCluske – This World is Phuhl o’ a Number o’ Things

    280. Brian Doonthetoon says:

      As mentioned in the current main page in a couple of minutes…

      I’ve posted this on a couple of Facebook pages today (17th June). If you don’t understand how the voting system for a Holyrood election works, it may be worth reading, highlighting, copying and sharing.
      Quite a long post here but if you read the quick summary, you may want to read how it was worked out.
      How could a new pro-Indy party, standing only in the REGIONAL vote, affect the total number of pro-Indy MSPs in the Scottish Parliament?
      I’m gonna give an example of my own region, North East Scotland.
      Quick summary…
      2016 actual result in the regional vote:-
      Tories 4 MSPs
      Labour 2 MSPs
      Lib-Dem 1 MSP
      2016, if 25% of SNP regional votes had gone to a Pro-Indy party:-
      Tories – 4
      Labour – 2
      Pro-Indy – 1
      2016, if 40% of SNP regional votes had gone to a Pro-Indy party:-
      Tories – 4
      Pro-Indy – 2
      Labour – 1
      In the 2016 CONSTITUENCY vote, the SNP won 9 out of 10 seats. The 10th was a Tory gain from the SNP in Aberdeenshire West.
      In the REGIONAL vote, the SNP had 44.7% (137,086) of the votes, which resulted in NO SNP MSPs for the region.
      The Tories had 28% (85,848) of the votes, resulting in 4 regional MSPs.
      Labour had 12.6% (38,791), resulting in 2 MSPs.
      Lib-Dems had 6% (18,444), resulting in 1 MSP.
      Greens got 4.9% (15,123), resulting in NO MSPs.
      Why did the SNP get no regional MSPs?
      For the regional vote – each seat is awarded in a round of calculations. The twist is, the winner of the first list seat in each region isn’t necessarily the party with the most votes in that region. That’s because each party’s regional vote is divided by [the number of constituency seats they won in the first vote +1].
      So, in the case of the SNP, in North East Scotland, where they won 9 constituencies, their regional total was divided by 9+1=10, resulting in an effective total of 13,709 (13,708.6).
      Now we can see that people giving both their constituency and regional votes to the SNP was very inefficient in gaining an pro-indy majority. And the question under debate is whether there’s a better way.
      Let’s assume there was a new pro-Indy party. Let’s call it β€œPro-Indy”. What would have happened in North East Scotland in 2016, if even 25% of the regional SNP vote had switched to Pro-Indy? Well Pro-Indy would have 34,272 (34,271.5) votes.
      The SNP regional vote would have fallen to 102,814 but it makes no difference – they didn’t get any regional MSPs anyway!
      So how would the seats for parties have worked out? In the calculations, seats already won are taken into account.
      Tories, with a total of 85,848, take the first regional seat. Their regional total then becomes 85,848 divided by 1+1 (2), giving them 42,924.
      Tories, with a total of 42,924, take the second regional seat. Their regional total then becomes 85,848 divided by 2+1 (3), giving them 28,616.
      The third regional seat goes to Labour with their 38,791. Their regional vote then becomes 38,791 divided by 1+1 (2), giving them 19,396 (19,395.5).
      The fourth regional seat goes to Pro-Indy with their 34,272. Their regional vote then becomes 34,272 divided by 1+1 (2), giving them 17,136.
      The fifth regional seat goes to the Tories with their 28,616. Their regional vote then becomes 85,848 divided by 3+1 (4), giving them 21,462.
      The sixth regional seat goes to the Tories with their 21,462. Their regional vote then becomes 85,848 divided by 4+1 (5), giving them 17,170 (17,169.6).
      The seventh (and last) regional seat goes to Labour with their 19,396.
      So the final total is,
      Tories – 4 (no change)
      Labour – 2 (no change)
      Pro-Indy – 1 (+1)
      And we’ve lost the Lib-Dem.
      At 40% of the SNP regional vote swinging behind Pro-Indy, we would have had this scenario.
      Once again, no loss of seats for the SNP because they didn’t have any! The Pro-Indy vote would then have been 54,834.
      Tories still get the first regional seat.
      Pro-Indy, with a total of 54,384, take the second regional seat. Their regional total then becomes 54,834 divided by 1+1 (2), giving them 27,417.
      Tories, with a total of 42,924, take the third regional seat. Their regional total then becomes 85,848 divided by 2+1 (3), giving them 28,616.
      The fourth regional seat goes to Labour with their 38,791. Their regional vote then becomes 38,791 divided by 1+1 (2), giving them 19,396 (19,395.5).
      The fifth regional seat goes to the Tories with their 28,616. Their regional vote then becomes 85,848 divided by 3+1 (4), giving them 21,462.
      The sixth regional seat goes to Pro-Indy with their 27,417. Their regional vote then becomes 54,834 divided by 2+1 (3), giving them 18,278.
      The seventh (and last) regional seat goes to the Tories with their 21,462.
      So the final total is,
      Tories – 4 (no change)
      Pro-Indy – 2 (+2)
      Labour – 1 (-1)
      And we’ve lost the Lib-Dem and 1 Labour.
      One of the reasons for using this system in the first place, I think, was to confuse voters, who were used to First Past The Post.

    281. Brian Doonthetoon says:

      As mentioned in the current main page.

      I’ve posted this on a couple of Facebook pages today (17th June). If you don’t understand how the voting system for a Holyrood election works, it may be worth reading, highlighting, copying and sharing.
      Quite a long post here but if you read the quick summary, you may want to read how it was worked out.
      (I’ve corrected it, because in my first version, I forgot the the Tories had won a constituency seat.)
      How could a new pro-Indy party, standing only in the REGIONAL vote, affect the total number of pro-Indy MSPs in the Scottish Parliament?
      I’m gonna give an example of my own region, North East Scotland.
      Quick summary…
      2016 actual result in the regional vote:-
      Tories 4 MSPs
      Labour 2 MSPs
      Lib-Dem 1 MSP
      2016, if 25% of SNP regional votes had gone to a Pro-Indy party:-
      Tories – 3
      Labour – 2
      Pro-Indy – 1
      Lib-Dem – 1
      2016, if 40% of SNP regional votes had gone to a Pro-Indy party:-
      Tories – 3
      Pro-Indy – 2
      Labour – 1
      Lib-Dem – 1
      In the 2016 CONSTITUENCY vote, the SNP won 9 out of 10 seats. The 10th was a Tory gain from the SNP in Aberdeenshire West.
      In the REGIONAL vote, the SNP had 44.7% (137,086) of the votes, which resulted in NO SNP MSPs for the region.
      The Tories had 28% (85,848) of the votes, resulting in 4 regional MSPs.
      Labour had 12.6% (38,791), resulting in 2 MSPs.
      Lib-Dems had 6% (18,444), resulting in 1 MSP.
      Greens got 4.9% (15,123), resulting in NO MSPs.
      Why did the SNP get no regional MSPs?
      For the regional vote – each seat is awarded in a round of calculations. The twist is, the winner of the first list seat in each region isn’t necessarily the party with the most votes in that region. That’s because each party’s regional vote is divided by [the number of seats they’ve already won +1].
      So, in the case of the SNP, in North East Scotland, where they won 9 constituencies, their regional total was divided by 9+1=10, resulting in an effective total of 13,709 (13,708.6).
      The Conservatives won 1 constituency seat so their regional total was divided by 1+1=2, resulting in an effective total of 42,924.
      Now we can see that people giving both their constituency and regional votes to the SNP was very inefficient in gaining an pro-indy majority. And the question under debate is whether there’s a better way.
      Let’s assume there was a new pro-Indy party. Let’s call it β€œPro-Indy”. What would have happened in North East Scotland in 2016, if even 25% of the regional SNP vote had switched to Pro-Indy? Well Pro-Indy would have 34,272 (34,271.5) votes.
      The SNP regional vote would have fallen to 102,814 but it makes no difference – they didn’t get any regional MSPs anyway!
      So how would the seats for parties have worked out? In the calculations, seats already won are taken into account.
      Tories, with an effective total of 42,924 (85,848/2), take the first regional seat. Their regional total then becomes 85,848 divided by 2+1 (3), giving them 28,616.
      Labour, with a total of 38,791, take the second regional seat. Their regional vote then becomes 38,791 divided by 1+1 (2), giving them 19,396 (19,395.5).
      The third regional seat goes to Pro-Indy with their 34,272. Their regional vote then becomes 34,272 divided by 1+1 (2), giving them 17,136.
      The fourth regional seat goes to the Tories with their 28,616. Their regional vote then becomes 85,848 divided by 3+1 (4), giving them 21,462.
      The fifth regional seat goes to the Tories with their 21,462. Their regional vote then becomes 85,848 divided by 4+1 (5), giving them 17,170 (17,169.6).
      The sixth regional seat goes to Labour with their 19,396. Their regional vote then becomes 38,791 divided by 2+1 (3), giving them 12,930 (12,930.33repeat).
      The seventh (and last) regional seat goes to the Lib-Dems with their 18,444.
      So the final total is,
      Tories – 3 (-1)
      Labour – 2 (no change)
      Pro-Indy – 1 (+1)
      Lib-Dem – 1 (no change).
      So, Pro-Indy has taken a Tory scalp…
      At 40% of the SNP regional vote swinging behind Pro-Indy, we would have had this scenario. The SNP regional vote would have fallen to 82,252 but it makes no difference – they didn’t get any regional MSPs anyway! The effective SNP regional vote ends up as 8,225 (88,252/10). The Pro-Indy vote would then have been 54,834.
      Pro-Indy, with a total of 54,384, take the first regional seat. Their regional total then becomes 54,834 divided by 1+1 (2), giving them 27,417.
      Tories, with an effective total of 42,924, take the second regional seat. Their regional total then becomes 85,848 divided by 2+1 (3), giving them 28,616.
      Labour, with a total of 38,791, take the third regional seat. Their regional vote then becomes 38,791 divided by 1+1 (2), giving them 19,396 (19,395.5).
      The fourth regional seat goes to the Tories with their 28,616. Their regional vote then becomes 85,848 divided by 3+1 (4), giving them 21,462.
      The fifth regional seat goes to Pro-Indy, with a total of 27,417. Their regional total then becomes 54,834 divided by 2+1 (3), giving them 18,278.
      The sixth regional seat goes to the Tories with their 21,462. Their regional vote then becomes 85,848 divided by 4+1 (5), giving them 17,170 (17,169.6).
      The seventh (and last) regional seat goes to the Lib-Dems with their 18,444.
      So the final total is,
      Tories – 3 (-1)
      Pro-Indy – 2 (+2)
      Labour – 1 (-1)
      Lib-Dem – 1 (no change).
      And we’ve lost 1 Tory and 1 Labour.
      One of the reasons for using this system in the first place, I think, was to confuse voters, who were used to First Past The Post.

    282. Sarah says:

      BDTT: those figures are a bit depressing. I had felt quite optimistic about a new party being helpful on the list but if it needs 25% of SNP votes that is quite a hurdle.

      And in the Borders where the SNP don’t win all/most of the constituency seats then the new party would be splitting the Yes vote. Unless the SNP agreed not to stand in that region.

      @CBB: Thanks for that link!

    283. JGedd says:

      For Tinto, when he’s about. Radio 3 has at last had Bax on – Tintagel. Evocative stuff. You can hear the waves crashing on the rocks beneath the castle.

    284. JGedd says:

      For Tinto, when he’s about. Radio 3 has at last had Bax on – Tintagel. Evocative stuff. You can hear the waves crashing on the rocks beneath the castle.

    285. Tinto Chiel says:

      @JGedd: yes, a very atmospheric piece which I’ve always admired and an excellent version too.

      Frankly, after the last couple of days on the M/T btl, this might be more appropriate, ‘cos I’m only holding on by my finger tips:

      I see Bax’s republican sympathies mentioned in the comments, which probably explain his mysterious, long-lasting R3 “banning” and there is also a frankly incomprehensibly snide comment about Bryden Thomson, a marvellous but under-rated home boy in the conducting states who was much respected by his fellow musicians.

      Going back under the covers with my torch and “The Big Boys’ Bumper Book of The Spanish Civil War”.

      Wake me up when some kind of normality breaks out across the way.

      Ahoooo, werewolves of London………..

    286. Liz g says:

      Hi to the “crazy crowd” all those who are not normal enough for the main thread : -)
      Oh my giddy aunt…. I’m assuming you’ve all seen it!
      Please don’t judge me for hanging out there…

      Why I’m here…

      After the news today I’m enquiring after Smallaxe and his family… and wondering if I have permission from Mrs Smallaxe to use the number I’ve been given ?

      And..since it’s been a while!
      I do also wonder how is all things Wallace ? πŸ™‚

    287. Michael McCabe says:

      Hi Liz g if you do manage to get in touch with the Smallaxe’s could you pass on my best wishes to them. Thank you.

    288. Brian Doonthetoon says:

      Hi Liz G.

      I had a blether with Sybil on Sunday afternoon. They’re both fine but Smallaxe is on meds that cause him to sleep a lot so I didn’t speak to him.

      I guess it would be ok to phone if you have the number.

      Hi Michael!

    289. Michael McCabe says:

      Hi Brian hope you are keeping well my friend. Hopefully catch up when things get better.

    290. Sarah says:

      All, re M/T being impossible to read or contribute to nowadays, is it worth us all mentioning this to the Rev via the Contact button [unless you’re on phoning terms!]?

      On a cheerier subject, sitting in the porch I just looked up and saw a goldfinch – they used to be rarely seen here but now there seems to be a charm of them around us. Apparently their numbers have increased by 90% or something amazing in the last 20 years or so. Something good is happening, anyway!

    291. Brian Doonthetoon says:

      Hi Sarah.

      Tuesday teatime, I took my car out for its 3 times a week exercise and a visit to Tesco.

      I stopped of at Stannergate/Grassy Beach for a 15 minute stroll along the pebbles. Saw a bird just standing on a rock, slightly offshore. It wasn’t an oystercatcher, gull or crow so took some pics so I could have a look in my wildlife book when I got home.

      Turns out it was a grey heron. First time I’ve seen one ‘in the wild’. The one in the book was standing the same way as the one at the beach. Apparently, they do that quite a lot; just stand there watching the river go by.

    292. Tinto Chiel says:

      Sarah: re increase in goldfinches, it seems to be the garden feeder effect. We get lots of goldfinches (and some redpolls) simply by putting niger seeds into feeders. They love them. They were much less common when I was a boy.

      Unfortunately the greenfinch population has crashed Where I Am, probably as a result of a nasty virus spread by infected drinking water at bird-tables in the last two-three years.

    293. Sarah says:

      @BDTT: trying to identify birds is a great occupation! The hours I’ve spent staring at a small brown bird trying to work out if its legs are flesh coloured, or dark flesh coloured, or whatever the book says is THE identifying feature to distinguish one small brown bird from another!

      I haven’t seen a heron for ages. When they are standing around next to the river I think it may be because they are waiting for prey to swim past so they can have a stab at it? Or perhaps they are digesting a meal.

      @ Tinto: yes, my neighbours swear by those seeds and they certainly get far more birds than we do, but also they then worry about bird diseases because so many birds congregate. You can’t win, sometimes. On the other hand we are right by the shore so see birds I never knew before such as red throated divers.
      And I got it when you pointed it out! πŸ™‚

    294. Brian Doonthetoon says:

      Hi Sarah.

      I’ve uploaded a pic of it here:-

    295. Brian Doonthetoon says:

      Hi Sarah.

      According to my book,
      “Often seen standing motionless for hours on end… Will occasionally stalk prey which comprise mainly amphibians and fish, especially eels.”

    296. Brian Doonthetoon says:

      Hi Sarah.

      I work at Ninewells Hospital. Many of the roofs have a layer of pebbles on them, which the colony of oystercatchers see as ideal for ‘nesting’. They don’t actually build nests; rather the make a hollow in the pebbles to lay their eggs.

      Unfortunately, there is also a colony of gulls at Ninewells, who see young oystercatchers as ‘fair game’.

      The oystercatchers usually have a brood of three. By the time it’s time for fledging, they’re lucky if they have one left.

    297. Brian Doonthetoon says:

      rather the make a hollow = rather THEY make a hollow…

    298. Sarah says:

      BDTT – that’s a great photo, really atmospheric. Worthy of The National centre page? I think so. Go on, send it in.

      So herons stand in same place for hours on end? Something else I had no idea of!

      And another thing I didn’t know [getting an education here, again!] is that oystercatchers nest on roofs – hitherto I thought they were seashore nesters i.e. on ground just up from the sea. It must be almost worth going to work, Brian! Shame about the gulls – what about offering them a poke of chips instead?

    299. Dramfineday says:

      Morning all, any of you clever folks producing / aware of production of, WOS identified facemasks? If so, where can I get some? I like to trigger people on the odd occasion and I fell that said mask might be just the business.

    300. Ruglonian says:

      Hey Dramfineday, no there’s no WOS printed material that could be turned into a mask.
      Best idea I have is to have a look at previous perks that could be reworked eg the wee linen shopping bag from a few years ago perhaps?

      Failing that, badge up!!

    301. Ruglonian says:

      *Material as in fabric – sorry, I just read that back and it wasn’t very clear πŸ˜€

    302. dramfineday says:

      Cheers Ruglonian – badges it is than.

    303. Tinto Chiel says:

      I liked this from the start because it was so weird and trippy:

      Then I met a real Emily. We both worked casually as teens on the petrol pumps at a local garage. The money wasn’t great but the tips were good. I even got a Β£1 note (four weeks’ pocket money) from a Porsche driver when I discovered someone had filled his petrol tank with pebbles up to the lid.

      Unfortunately, during a lull in passing trade, Emily and I were indulging in some mainly innocent horseplay in the office when we were caught in an INWILL moment by the irascible wee foreman of the mechanics, who disliked me because of my fitba’ allegiance. Upshot: I was fired, Emily was not.

      Hello, cruel world!

    304. Dan says:

      Yeah Tinto, teenage angst can be brutal.
      I’m minded of a couple of unrequited love “incidents” back in my youth.
      There was the time I sent a Valentine’s card that I’d carefully scribed inside the lyrics from Bryan Adams – Heaven…
      The recipient did not know of this song and thought I had produced the words especially for them. My first attempt at Winging it didn’t go down well once they heard the song on the radio… πŸ™

      My next Winging it got me airborne and left a mark, but not on a heart…
      Cruising like you do past the house of another interest in my Mini pickup, with audible cool music (not Bryan Adams as that tape had got chewed up like they did, may have been TheThe, Propaganda, Hipsway) emanating in a tactic that would hopefully woo the subject…
      Well on the second reconnaissance pass my LCB 3 branch exhaust manifold broke where it joined the big bore system, generating a rather rapid crescendo of engine and mechanical noise as the exhaust dropped to the road where it proceeded to dig deep into the tarmac causing the rear wheels to lift well off the ground pole vault style, and bringing the vehicle to a bumpy stop at whiplash inducing speed.
      Well that certainly got their and most in the streets attention as everyone poured out to see what the heck had happened.
      Nowt ever came on that particular romance front but the deep scrape in the road surface outside their house remained for decades as a reminder of what might have been in a Sliding Doors type of way… πŸ™

      Just another life lesson learnt that fancy car modifications ain’t always for the best.
      Carlos Fandango Wheels being an example.

    305. Dan says:

      Ach shazbot! with an added dose of cringe… knowing Stu is going to have to read that post to clear moderation. Soz

    306. Sarah says:

      Tinto and other film buffs. Old B&W films enjoyed this week just by Googling i.e. free to watch:
      – Double Harness 1933 William Powell – another black sheep turned to white by love of good woman, Ann Harding. All these pre-Code films are surprisingly realistic in their recognition that not everyone was squeaky clean in their relationships!
      – The Man from Toronto 1933 [not the 2020 film!]: brilliant performance from Fred Kerr as solicitor uncle to Jessie Matthews who has been left quarter million if she marries someone she has never met. We are running his performance through in our minds still. Genius. Also great to see the W Sussex countryside, people and village scenes, and the cars.

      A dreich day here so may find another film idc!

    307. Sarah says:

      Forgot to mention “Stagecoach”. Every character well portrayed – serious and memorable. [Except the Indians – as characters and their appalling treatment. Definitely not part of the film studios target audience.]

    308. Tinto Chiel says:

      @Sarah: thanks for those. I’d never heard of “The Man from Toronto” but I like WP, who can be a very bad man given the chance, no doubt unexpectedly saved by Lurve in this one.

      In return, “Mr Denning Drives North”: I’m sure it’s hanging about free somewhere on the interwebthingy. Innocent man on the run kinda thing from memory with some interesting location scenes beyond Lunnon. John Mills does his usual.

    309. Sarah says:

      @ Tinto: you guessed the ending in the WP film. I hope I didn’t give it away. πŸ™‚

      Credit to Peter for finding the films. I just watch and criticise! Re The Man from Toronto, I’m not saying it is a profound theme but the actors, all “character” really, are excellent, and seeing the countryside as it was, and the people, in 1932/3 is fascinating.

      Settling down to supper now with “Mr Denning..”. Thank you.

    310. Tinto Chiel says:

      “Seeing the countryside as it was, and the people, in 1932/3 is fascinating.”

      That’s what’s so interesting about the older films: nothing new under the sun, only different.

      Enjoy Mr Denning: bwahahahahahahahaha! Some touches of Hitchcock.

      Ahoo! Werewolves of London!

    311. Sarah says:

      @ Tinto: we watched half the film last night. Are you trying to tell me that it hasn’t got a happy ending? I am such a sensitive soul that I don’t think I can face anything gloomy!

      I’ve enjoyed seeing an aircraft engineer driving around in a sporty Rolls Royce and employing a butler! Times have changed rather.

    312. Tinto Chiel says:

      @Sarah: my lips remain sealed……… πŸ˜‰ .

      You have probably seen “Green for Danger” but that would be a good follow up. Our two loved that one, “The Green Man” and “Cottage To Let” when they were wee and have never lost their love of B&Ws.

      Most Young ‘Uns simply won’t watch monochrome nowadays.


    313. JGedd says:

      The Green Man and Green For Danger, would my memory be right in remembering the wonderful Alistair Sim in both?. Haven’t seen either film for yonks but now my memory has been prompted, I intend to remedy that.

      ( I also think I recall that Alec Guinness was a second thought for casting in The Ladykillers but since Alistair Sim, the original choice, wasn’t available he was asked instead to take the part of ‘the professor’in that film. Modestly, or slyly, Guinness said that he kept Alistair Sim’s performance in mind when he played the part as he said Sim would have done.)

      Oh, that’s another suggestion for your leisure viewing as well as the excellent, witty Kind Hearts and Coronets with Alec Guinness playing ( I think) eight parts.

    314. Sarah says:

      I’m looking forward to the other suggested films. Still worried about Mr Denning tho’. Herbert Lom is another of those actors who terrify me – Sidney Greenstreet, Peter Lorre, Peter Vaughan. Shudders.

      As for not watching B&W films. Pshaw. What is the world coming to? Black and white photos are often better too – saw a colour photo of the Kennedy family recently and it wasn’t nearly as impressive as in B&W because the different colours of their clothes was a distraction.

    315. Tinto Chiel says:

      @JGedd: correctamundo! Loved The Ladykillers: the scene where old “Mrs Lopsided” tells the rozzer to “Buzz off!” was hilarious. Dennis Price as the super smoothie in KHaC was also memorable.

      @Sarah: for some reason Harpo Marx terrified me when I was a wee boy, which is quite bizarre. Mind you, I used to terrify my own tinies with my Peter Lorre stylings…………

      I blame the Daleks, who traumatised me in the early 60s πŸ™‚

    316. Brian Doonthetoon says:

      If you’re looking for decent b/w films, here’s one from 1961. I saw the trailer for it when I was 9/10 but didn’t actually see the film until years later, because it was an ‘X’.

      From imdb –

      When the U.S. and Russia unwittingly test atomic bombs at the same time, it alters the nutation (axis of rotation) of the Earth.
      Director: Val Guest
      Writers: Wolf Mankowitz (written for the screen by), Val Guest (written for the screen by)
      Stars: Edward Judd, Janet Munro, Leo McKern | See full cast & crew Β»

      You can watch/download it here in 720p. It starts off sepia-tinted, then goes full b/w after 4min 15sec.

    317. JGedd says:

      @Tinto. Both of those films were brilliant with witty intelligent scipts, direction and superb ensemble acting.(Though in KH&C the ensemble was mostly comprised of Alec Guinness.)

      The script of KH&C was immensely quotable, some of it still memorable after all these years like the doddery old vicar showing the disguised Louis round the family church and boring him with his observations on ecclesiastical architectre. He directs the attention of the supposed Bishop of Matabeleland to the fine examples of stained glass windows which he describes as having ‘all the exuberance of Chaucer with none of the concomitant crudities’. Wonderful.

    318. Tinto Chiel says:

      @JGedd: yes, brilliant scripts, as you quoted. These films would never be made today, for all sorts of reasons. KHaC was a razor-sharp satire for its day but that is one of the reasons it wouldn’t get a play today. In some respects our public and political life is beyond satire, e.g any Tory politician and Doctor Death Dom. Cummings.

      *Warming to his theme*: actually, the film which contributed to my politically malcontent state when I was young and lovely was “The Maggie”. I’ll never forget watching it for the first time with my Dear Old Dad and seeing footage of places I actually knew: The Central Hotel and the Clyde in Glasgow, the West Coast and Islay and a real Hollywood actor in Paul Douglas to “validate” it, as all those diddy analysts would say.

      I suddenly realised that Scotland was effectively written out of almost any artistic existence as far as the world was concerned: almost nothing of our lives was reflected in “cultural artefacts” beyond Scotland apart from cringe-making stuff like Brigadoon and essentially patronising later contributions like Local Hero, where we were supposed to be grateful the likes of Burt Lancaster (and Peter Riegert, ffs) deigned to appear in a piece of inconsequential fluff (controversial).

      And so, dear reader, I performed an early version of “reframing” and saw the Scottish Cringe for what it was. After such knowledge, what forgiveness, ya bass?

      I feel better now……..

      Ahoo, werewolvesof London, etc.

    319. JGedd says:

      Yes we Scots are always pathetically grateful to see our country being portrayed to the world no matter how inaccurately. Very different being Irish eh? They got away (mainly) from the travesty representations of Irishness in British and Hollywood films by being in charge of their own film-making.

      By the way, I share your lack of affection for ‘Local Hero’ and in fact all of Bill Forsyth’s cringingly ingratiating ‘oeuvre’. He lives abroad also as if to confirm that for those of his ilk, the best prospect for a Scotsman is the road out of Scotland.

      (Funnily enough, ‘The Maggie’ was directed by Alexander Mackendrick who also directed ‘The Ladykillers’. Oh, and ‘Whisky Galore’. Didn’t discover until recently that Mackendrick went to Glasgow School of Art.)

      Those werewolves of yours – Don’t they trouble the neighbours? I mean, as well as all the dibbling and trellis-wrestling going on? Just saying.

    320. JGedd says:

      @ 8.52pm
      * ecclesiastical architecture.
      Aargh! Need my bed. ‘Night all.

    321. Tinto Chiel says:

      @JGedd: my neighbours understand me, worry ye not πŸ˜‰ . The trellis involved my first ever acquaintance with No More Nails crystal clear exterior grade and cunning, swivelling hooks on a clear plastic base: excellent result, TISIM.

      Yes, MacKendrick was highly gifted: “The Sweet Smell of Success” with Lancaster and Curtis is one of the most brilliantly cynical films about American media and society ever made, and a world away from his generally couthy and cosy UK work.

      “Match me, Stanley!” indeed!

      “By the way, I share your lack of affection for β€˜Local Hero’ and in fact all of Bill Forsyth’s cringingly ingratiating β€˜oeuvre’. He lives abroad also as if to confirm that for those of his ilk, the best prospect for a Scotsman is the road out of Scotland.”

      Tinto’s Rotten Tomatoes says 10/10 for that. Whimsy is for losers.

    322. Tinto Chiel says:

      What woman could resist this sweet-talking bar steward?

    323. JGedd says:

      Tinto @ 5th July 11.28pm

      How did you know? ‘The Sweet Smell of Success’ is one of my favourite films of all time.

      When I first saw it on TV in my teens I was surprised by its excoriating attack on Broadway and the monstrous egos of those within its power structure who could control and destroy the reputations of others.( There have always been Harvey Weinsteins in Hollywood too.)

      Lancaster’s portayal of one of these monsters, who revelled in his power, was chilling but the other central character, who is trapped by his own ambition into becoming the creature of the ruthless Lancaster, was Curtis, who was a revelation in the part.

      He oozed self-loathing and positively sweated in the spiritual torment of being used by Lancaster, against his better instincts, to be an accomplice in his scheming. It was like a hireling assassin in a Jacobean revenge tragedy who detests his master but has to do his bidding.( Like Bosola in The Duchess of Malfi?)

      I never reckoned Curtis as an actor. He was a Hollywood pretty boy but he was superb in that film and quite Lancaster’s equal. The only other time I have seen him turn in such a polished and noteworthy performance was in the comedy ‘Some Like It Hot’ directed by the great Billy Wilder. Perhaps like ‘The Sweet Smell of Success’ it’s a case of having the right director?

      I was astonished at the time to discover that the director of this dark and scathing depiction of Broadway & the ‘entertainment industry’ was also the director of ‘The Maggie’ with its mostly appealing characters ( even the billionaire business man who sees the error of his ways.)

      Now I’ve whetted my own appetite, I’m going to watch it again. Haven’t seen it in ages.

    324. Tinto Chiel says:

      @JG: I only got the DVD a few years ago and found it a jaw-dropper, for all the reasons which you listed. I expected a great performance from Lancaster but, as you say, Tony Curtis was outstanding as the conflicted wee creep without a backbone.

      It makes you despair about the human race and leaves you wanting a brain-shower, yet The Maggie was uplifting and it’s difficult to think the same man directed Sweet Smell of Success. I gather MacKendrick’s experience of making films in the States had something to do with it πŸ™‚ .

      Re The Maggie, I always like the way The Wee Boy says, “Good luck to ye!” to Paul Douglas at the end. It sounds more like a threat in his Glasgow accent, and completely unsentimental. PD’s joke to the 100-y-o Gael was also memorable for the bodach’s slow-burn reaction but it’s got so many golden wee moments.

      Enjoy watching The Maggie again (if I haven’t spoiled it for you).

      And why not? he Normaned.

    325. Tinto Chiel says:

      This guy was unique, like so many others (copyright Smallaxe, 2015).

    326. Tinto Chiel says:

      I’ll just leave this with you before I go to my socially-distanced choir practice:

      Originally The Move, threse scallywags morphed into ELO, like a weird and beautiful chrysalis (peotry).

      A mighty and unforgettable riff, non?

    327. Tinto Chiel says:

      For those savants on here who were interested in the Frederick Douglass discussion a wee while back:

      Racism, like The Union, never sleeps………

    328. Sarah says:

      @ Tinto – How impressive Frederick Douglass’s words are. Such a shame that USA hasn’t left all the nasty discrimination and physical abuse behind.

      I can’t get my head round the way USA institutions treat non-white citizens. It makes no sense to carry on with attitudes and behaviour that damage all citizens, white or not. Wouldn’t everyone be happier if there was no “them” and “us”, no downtrodden, no disliked?

      And the hypocrisy! Land of the free? Unless black, Native, yellow, Muslim, poor, ill etc etc.

      I don’t think reporting should categorise US citizens with descriptions such as “African American” – you are American if you are a citizen. It somehow justifies the different treatment of WASPs and African Americans if people are labelled according to their ancestry.

    329. Tinto Chiel says:

      @Sarah: it’s certainly got a lot more overt since the Tangerine Mussolini got in. I’ve been over there twice for short visits since he became POTUS and you can feel the tension whenever his name comes up. And if you’re unwise enough to bring up the subject of gun control too………

      I know the wife of a friend of a friend who has come to live here with her Scottish husband because of racist abuse in NYC (yes, NYC, not a southern state). Last straw was when a woman on the subway told her to get back to Africa.

      I may be wrong but I think the term African American is one the black community is happiest with. It’s a bit of a minefield for people not wishing to cause offence, innit?.

      David Blight has written a Pulitzer Prize winning biography of Douglass which deals in detail with his Scottish visits, often forgotten about in other accounts. The hardback is a very handsome book, on expensive paper with deckled edging and is reasonably priced on a certain website which means a very scary woman πŸ˜‰ .

    330. JGedd says:


      Unfortunately, we are stuck with an ancient psychology which worked very well in the ancient past but now with this ancient social behaviour, it’s the equivalent of counting on your fingers while at the same time, having an intelligence capable of advanced technology which would have been beyond the imaginings of our ancient ancestors.

      We forget that much of our social behaviour is quite primitive and is powerful enough in certain circumstances to override our modern concepts of morality.
      It’s sometimes uncomfortably close to some primate behaviour which gives a clue to its ancient origins.

      When Shakespeare spoke of the many-headed beast when referring to the actions of a mob, he was observing the propensity of humans, just like some of our primate cousins, to be driven by a group mentality and to lose our individual selves in the hive mind. There is also, in the ancient psychology of our common antecedents, antipathy to the ‘other’, to define ourselves in relation to our own group with reference to an ‘out’ group.

      William Golding once observed that you could witness everything you needed to know about human behaviour from seeing what went on in a school playground. He made this observation while writing ‘Lord of the Flies’, since his house actually overlooked a school playground.

      In USA, of course, the fact that Afro-Americans were once slaves has made them a target for the kind of behaviour which has become almost endemic in the USA. Once you are perceived to be the bottom of the group, group hierarchy is reluctant to allow that to change. Again that can be seen in primate behaviour. Once a scapegoat, always a scapegoat.

      We are often told that empathy was the basis of human survival in prehistory. You could say that living in much bigger societies than the small groups in which we evolved has been our undoing. The strong drive to marginalize and demonize is the dark side of that group empathy. The desire to belong means that there must be others who have to be seen not to belong.

      (See, I set out just to say something and it ends up as an essay. I should stay away from the laptop. My desire to communicate is my undoing! Blame it on the broken leg.)

    331. iain mhor says:

      If CBB can do it – I’ll have a stab…
      I won’t link, I’ll now attempt to explain some political thinking with topical examples and no saftey net:
      Fritz Heider and the ‘Balance Theory’ –
      Where there is always an aim to achieve psychological balance.
      (Start scrolling past now – because there is a tiny bit of maths and a lot of introspective thinking)

      Classically, this theory is visualised as a 3 point, triangle relationship – Between two persons P & O and a third material element X
      In classical examples P is oneself and Object X is a ‘creation’ of (derived from, or strongly related to) third Person ‘O’

      Start by keying in oneself as ‘P’ at the apex and decide the balance of relationships.
      Let us call it for argument, person or organisation ‘O’ = the SNP (or politician) and material object X = Independence are the other two corners.

      Balance is calculated like maths; mutiplying the positives and negatives between the three arms.
      Balance is defined as a net Positive and Unbalanced a Negative.

      In maths, multiplying two same (+/+) or (- /-) = a plus & two different (+/-) = minus.
      Therefore with three:

      (+) x (+) x (+) = + (Positive) Balanced.
      (-) x (+) x (-) = + (Positive) Balanced.
      (-) x (+) x (+) = – (Negative) Unbalanced.
      (-) x (-) x (+) = “+” (Positive) Balanced

      I’m using the SNP here purely as an example because it’s topical.
      Example beliefs are:

      Likes Indy (PX) is a positive “+”
      Likes SNP (PO) “+”
      SNP likes Indy (OX) “+”
      This = a net “+” positive and defined as ‘Balanced’

      Likes Indy (PX) “+”
      Don’t like SNP (PO) “-”
      SNP likes Indy (OX) “+”
      This is a net “-” negative and ‘Unbalanced’

      Likes Indy (PX) “+”
      Don’t like SNP (PO) “-”
      SNP don’t like Indy (PX) “-”
      Which is Balanced – etcetera…

      Where we see an imbalance, it leads to a form of cognotive dissonance – to correct this (to ‘balance’ it) one has perhaps the following options:

      Decide that O isn’t so bad after all.
      Decide that X isn’t as great as originally thought.
      Decide OΒ cannot like X
      Avoid a relationship with O & X altogether

      BTL we may see much the same phenomenon.
      So, for example: Positive about Indy, yet negative about the SNP, yet still positive the SNP is for Indy. This would be ‘unbalanced’ and require a solution for the dissonance. As with all such cognitive dissonance solutions, it will be internally rationalised.

      The example solutions above are straightforward.
      If one part of the ideal, example triad, of three positives falls to a negative, a balancing choice is required.
      So if, for whatever reason, one’s perception of the SNP is bad – one might take the easiest solution – if one cannot reject ones like of Independence, the “solution” is that the SNP don’t like Indy.

      Now the obvious caveats.
      This is a highly simplified example of the theory. Various nuanced layers can be applied and there are many interesting arguments and counterpoints surrounding this theory. It holds as a rule of thumb only.
      This is not some disguised apology for the SNP (I could have plugged in any random data set)
      I present this merely to nudge an interest in thought processing, our politics and the theory itself.

      In the examples above; my personal dissonnance choice requires me to believe the SNP is not so bad after all and still an Independence liking party.
      The theory cannot allow me to be negative to the SNP and still believe them positive about Indy
      That would be Negative, Positive, Positive and therefore ‘Unbalanced’

      I may perhaps rationalise there is some reforming redemption somewhere (SNP actually good) – it’s either that, or I must reject both the SNP and the premise they are Pro-Indy, to stay psychologically ‘Balanced’
      To enhance either choice, I may weigh whatever information I have and prefer that which reinforces and is biased towards my chosen solution.

      Now the theory is not saying what I ‘must’ choose; it is suggesting, that in order to maintain psychological balance, I probably will choose; otherwise I am going to struggle mentally – further, that I will rationalise such choice.

      As an interesting (?) aside – It falls out to be quite balanced (in this data set scenario) to like/vote SNP and reject both Indy & any notion the SNP are pro-indy – that is a Positive, Negative , Negative and therefore ‘Balanced’
      In case anyone thinks such people are mad, they are not – quite the opposite. A simple rationalisation that the SNP are not really an Indy party (whether true or not) lets them whistle on the way to the voting booth.

      If one needs to analyse (for shits n giggle) other weird voter political thinking – try plugging in your own variations – maybe throw a relationship with Unionism in there, or the Tories – whatever takes your fancy, then have a good old think about what decisions make things tick.

      Or you can just throw in three people in a ‘friendship’ relation and see what you now think about:
      “Tam’s an arsehole, but he likes Shug and so do I – ach Tam’s mibbe no so bad really”
      Or will it be : “I bet Shug hates him too…” He did say he really likes Tam a few times – but he did call him a wank once… aye, he deffo thinks Tams a wank as well”…

      Anyway, there’s no abuse of other posters here, so thanks for reading if you made it this far –
      Even more kudos if you understood it !

      *You’re drawing the You, Tam & Shug triangle with your tongue sticking out and putting wee plus and minuses in now aren’t you haha!

    332. schrodingers cat says:

      doctor: we had to remove your appendix

      JRR Tolkien: but that’s where I explain why elves hate dwarves


    333. iain mhor says:

      @schrodingers cat 1:44am

      Maximum lolz πŸ˜€

    334. Tinto Chiel says:

      @ iain mhor & schrodingers cat: gonnaegiesachoon?

    335. Dorothy Devine says:

      Tinto Chiel, thanks for reminding me of John Lee Hooker . Haven’t heard him for many years. In his youth my late brother was a fan of his and Howlin Wolf.

      This may be described as ‘zany comedy relief’ but I think it is singularly sane in comparison to the main stream.

      I’ll just leave ‘Harvey’ with Jimmy Stewart as one of my all time favourite films – whimsy in lengthy widths.

    336. Tinto Chiel says:

      Hi, Dorothy: yes, I think John’s voice got better the older he got and you’ve got to respect a man who can carry off a Homburg hat.

      And now for something completely different. I always think of these as a pair:

    337. Dorothy Devine says:

      Tinto Chiel , prefer Dr Hook’s version of the Ballad of Lucy Jordan – there’s something about the catch in the singers voice that always got me. Though I understand your pairing of the 2 songs.

      Now I’m off to dig out my Dr Hook cd’s for the pleasure of annoying the neighbours by singing along!

    338. Tinto Chiel says:

      @Dorothy: thanks, every day a school day on here. I didn’t know there was such a version πŸ™‚ .

      Take the taste test, groovers:

    339. Brian Doonthetoon says:

      Marianne Faithfull…

    340. Brian Doonthetoon says:

      Another of my favourite blondes from the 60s…

      There’s another version of that video on YouTube but, for some perverse reason, the uploader stretched it out to widescreen, making her look short and dumpy.
      Probably the same type of person who captures all their videos in portrait mode…

    341. Brian Doonthetoon says:

      And another of my favourite blondes…

    342. Brian Doonthetoon says:

      One last observation for now…

      These two videos feature the same female vocalist.

      I don’t think there’s anyone around today that would think that ‘blacking up’ for a TV appearance would be a good idea.
      Actually, I remember that TOTP appearance. I recall that she looked somewhat darker than in the YouTube video. Maybe it’s been doctored…

    343. Brian Doonthetoon says:

      Hi iain mhor.

      An interesting post at 1.30 this morning. I’ve kept the email notification I got of it. I think it’s gonna take more than a couple of readings to fully understand.

      Thanks onnyhoo!

    344. schrodingers cat says:

      when the water reaches the top deck… follow the rats πŸ™‚

    345. Brian Doonthetoon says:

      I’ve just watched an interesting programme on BBC2 (I know, but I like access to iPlayer) about the “Glorious Revolution” of 1688/89.

      Seems like it was all propaganda – William even brought a printing press with him to feed the natives.

      I found it fairly even-handed, with respect to what went on at the time. It’s repeated from a while ago but should be worth a watch if you want to get a handle on “King Billy”.

      Search iPlayer for “British History’s Biggest Fibs with Lucy” and it’s episode 2.

    346. schrodingers cat says:

      i have been working on a google map for 3 years now
      it includes most relevent data files from the canmore website but also a place name study

      it is the ultimate historic map as it has all the data on it but it enables you to display what you want, eg pit name places and eg souterrains. seeing the roman remains on a map with the native forts etc is very illuminating

    347. iain mhor says:

      At least you’re prepared to have a crack.
      To be honest a visualisation/diagram helps a lot but I can’t do that here.
      Worth a little perseverance – a shockingly simple theory once you get yer head around it. Perhaps I made it too complex with all the algebra stuff – Better examples maybe?

      Nobody likes/listens to any tunes by the Glitter Band anymore. Really? Bloody good tunes. Yeah but, can you really enjoy them the way you did? Yet the tunes haven’t changed and if you do want to enjoy them, you’re going to need to change how you feel about Mr Glitter himself. Maybe even seek out anything which assists that narrative – conspiracy I tells ya! He’s a good dude!

      Marketers would say something simple like : You like Walkers tattie crisps – Lineker promotes Walkers tattie crisps, he loves them (he says so) … now what if you can’t abide Lineker – how will you cope?
      Theory says you’ll choose to alter your perception of one of those elements for ‘peace of mind’ (balance)

      The theory also says it will tend to be the easiest choice ‘Lineker hates those crisps really’ – but then how do you know that? Did you create a narrative that he’s solely in it for the money and lying. You don’t know that – but it suits to think it and you get to keep eating the crisps and hating him.

      You might try and argue you wouldn’t care; you’d just munch away happily. But that’s sidestepping the fact we’ve established there is a definite loathing of the Lineker – You’re in denial – you do care.
      You’ve rationalised falsely that you don’t. You might even construct a whole false narrative about why you don’t really care. That’s dissonance.
      So is any other option you choose to balance the triangle. ‘Ach I’m not that keen on those crisps anyway’ etc etc.

      I’ll shut up now πŸ™‚

    348. iain mhor says:

      Ye’s were asking for a tune before…

      Here – Have some Scottish Pirate Metal.
      Yes, it is a thing.

    349. schrodingers cat says:

      alpha blondie and the wailers

    350. iain mhor says:

      If ye didny take to Pirates (eh? Yer kidding me!)
      Maybe the continuing adventures of Angus McFife?

      Hootsforce Metal Mon!

    351. iain mhor says:

      Does humour belong in music asked Zappa?
      If yer Scottish, Aye.
      For the Glory of Dundee! – In Hoots We Trust!
      Right, that’s yer lot.

    352. Brian Doonthetoon says:


      Sinatras Dundee, 2010.

    353. schrodingers cat says:

      what am i watching bdtt ?

      it seems to resemble about 4 different bands but i cant place this πŸ™

    354. schrodingers cat says:

      looks like ianbh finally had enough of cbbc’s

      i am loathed to comment, im not stus fav at the moment πŸ™‚

    355. iain mhor says:

      @schrodingers cat
      Well.. Not that CBB’s links aren’t valid in their own right.
      Just that perhaps, he doesn’t always indicate very well that he understands them, or attempts to parse them into examples, or explain the relevancy in his own terms.
      I have waded into a couple and have found them, in themselves interesting, but not necessarily, succinctly relevant to the discussion at hand.

      I have no particular excuse for my posts – maybe I try to attempt some self awareness: Is it relevant? Can I at least try and make it so with a synopsis before linking (if linking at all) and ultimately, I have to think – Could I be a bit more succinct? Is it only me who perceives the concept – do I really care that much about levering an idea (or opinion) to anonymous strangers on t’internet? – probably, maybe, who cares.

      But if humans weren’t programmed to try and impart something, to someone (however useless, or irrelevant) no-one would bother to have kids – in order to achieve some form of memetic immortality – or something or other

      I did try and and ameliorate my posts a bit with some Pirate Metalt – If that doesn’t exculpate my sins – what the fek will!? πŸ˜€

    356. Brian Doonthetoon says:

      Hi schrodingers cat at 12:32 am

      “what am i watching bdtt ?”

      If you mean the Sinatras video…
      It was Murray Tosh’s birthday party. The two guys dancing and miming Were Zeek and Giz.

      This is from the link below.
      “The Snap-Ons… they were a bunch of around 25 regulars, kinda ‘led’ by Zeek and Giz, aka Steve Smith and Dave Mann. Zeek and Giz had a couple of party pieces – they could mime and act out all the words to Meat Loaf’s “Paradise By A Dashboard Light” and “Do You Like My New Car/Happy Together”, from The Mothers of Invention’s “Live at the Fillmore East” album.

      At this time, the disco was in “the wee hall” and the bands were “through the room” (the downstairs big hall). When the band started at 11 in the big hall, we took a break for half an hour or so, to encourage the punters to go through to give the band an audience. After that period, we played non-dance type stuff (Pink Floyd, ELP, etc) until the band finished.

      This particular night, Zeek and Giz asked me for “Paradise” in that non-dance period so they could do their stuff. The wee hall was almost empty at that time. The record went on, Zeek doing Meat Loaf’s part and Giz doing Ellen Foley’s part, on the floor in front of the disco. As you know, that track lasts for over 8 minutes.

      Around 5 minutes into it, the band finished a wee bit earlier than expected and people started coming back through from the other room. Zeek and Giz were so engrossed in their performance that they didn’t notice the audience building up around the dance floor. As the record started to fade out, Zeek and Giz almost filled their breeks when they got a chorus of cheers and applause from the crowd!
      Steve swore that they would never do that again… this is the same Zeek who now leads a lunatic band in Holland”

      The original. Go to (approx) 24:45 at the link, for tracks 2 and 3 of side 2.

    357. Tinto Chiel says:

      Since this is the middle of July, I’m thrawnly exposing you to this strange non-seasonal little piece of incidental music by Sibelius, for recitation:

      A lonely ski trail winding its way in the depths of the forests, a lonely ski trail winding its way over ridge and dale, over mires where the snow is flying and the stunted pine stands sparse and stunted -it is my thoughts slipping further and further away.

      A frozen ski track that disappears in the loneliness of the forests, a human life that ebbs away on roads nobody knows – in the far beyond the answers remain to questions the heart carried -a winding track on the frozen snow my errant wandering led.

      A lonely ski trail that ends at an abrupt precipice where the windswept pine leans over the edge of the cliff – how the stars blink coldly, how darkening the forest stands, how the light snow flakes fall on snow-hidden tracks.

      Apologies for clunky translation: Harvey’s Swedish is a bit rusty and he’s in a mood at the moment.

      Love the way the harp notes imitate the snow flakes at the end…

    358. Brian Doonthetoon says:

      Hi TC.

      If Harvey’s Swedish is a bit rusty, maybe he’d be better off brushing up on his Finnish? I think Lumilumi(?) may be having words with you!

      Kevin Turvey’s signature tune…

    359. Brian Doonthetoon says:

      Hi TC.

      If Harvey’s Swedish is a bit rusty, maybe he’d be better off brushing up on his Finnish? I think Lumilumi(?) may be having words with you!

      Kevin Turvey’s signature tune…

    360. Brian Doonthetoon says:

      Apologies for repeat of part of the post. I didn’t think I’d submitted, as Giant Haystacks said to Big Daddy.

    361. JGedd says:

      @ Tinto

      Don’t know any Swedish myself but that translation reads very well.

      Reminded me of another strangely beautiful piece of music by another Finnish composer, Rautavaara – with actual swans. First heard it years ago but they had it on the radio a few days ago. The sound of those migrating swans is hauntingly beautiful and atmospheric.

    362. Tinto Chiel says:

      BDTT: yes, unfortunately Sibelius and Satie in particular have been pillaged by TV smartarses for inconsequential link music: a firing squad’s too good for the blue-spectacled Meeja Brigade imho. I doubt Lumi will care: I think Sibelius was a non-Finnish speaker πŸ˜‰ .

      @JGedd: Rautavaara is another composer I need to explore. Unfortunately, life’s too short and we are those ski-trails. Liked the music even w/o the swans.

    363. CameronB Brodie says:

      iain mhor
      That’s you opinion and you are, of course, entitled to it. I’m not sure if you are actually competent to judge the value of my contributions though. So please feel free to fill your boots, or not.

      International Journal of Constitutional Law, Volume 15, Issue 4, October 2017, Pages 1039–1065
      Constitutions as communication

    364. CameronB Brodie says:

      iain mhor
      Let’s put that another way. You appear to think you are more knowledgeable than myself, and so more able to respond to our circumstances. Please can you justify your position and provide some evidence to support your assumed supremacy? Or do you simply think yourself morally above me? TA.


    365. Brian Doonthetoon says:

      Now, Cameron, you’re coming over as a tad pompous there. Not a good depiction of a Dundonian. No offence…

    366. Brian Doonthetoon says:

      Hi TC.

      Did you enjoy the blondes last night from this link onwards?

    367. CameronB Brodie says:

      Brian Doonthetoon
      No offense taken Brian, but I’d suggest your man is the pompous ass.

    368. Gregory Beekman says:

      Did you know…

      …viruses can infect other viruses?

      Viruses that infect other viruses are called virophages; the first was only discovered in 2008 and is called Sputnik.

      Was it discovered in Russia? No, it was found in a Paris cooling tower.

      Why was it called Sputnik? I have no idea…

      my tuppence

    369. CameronB Brodie says:

      I don’t want to colonise OT with the antagonism of the MT, but I’m not prepared to allow OT to become a safe place for political attacks against an ethical position that supports open democracy, through a respect for “just” law.

      DJ Cummerbund – Get Away

    370. Brian Doonthetoon says:

      Looks like ‘Quarantine’ may undergo a resurgence…

    371. CameronB Brodie says:

      Brian Doonthetoon
      Well said, and I hope others who wish to undermine my efforts take note.

    372. CameronB Brodie says:

      It’s not easy to claim moral authority of perspective, without appearing a bit pompous. I’ve never claimed I know it all, but I do have some insight into how to achieve justice in a postmodern age of subjective post-truth. I’m very rust though and not naturally the pushy kind, so I’m happy to admit my public performance of democratic self-determination, might not have consistently hit the mark.

      Ian Brown – Keep What Ya Got

    373. Ruglonian says:

      Cameron – YOUR efforts?
      Get a grip man! You’re dominating the MT, you’re now on here pestering folk who want to get away from you, and you’re constantly twisting folk’s friendly advice to take it as encouragement for you πŸ™

      You know all this though, cos it’s all been said – by many – before.

      Do you want to get banned, is that it?
      Are you feeling a compulsion to post like this and want Stu to take the option away from you?
      Cos you’re going the right way about it.

      Frankly you’ve had way more leniency than anyone else ever has had here before, and I’d suggest that that’s because lots of us have been advocating for you, hoping you’ll take the hint. Not any more – you’re on your own – if I see a single other incident of your arrogant disruption then I’m reporting it!!!

    374. Liz g says:

      Cameron…listen to Ruglonian..
      You are out of order.
      I don’t know why you thought you’re warning was just about not playing with Schrodingers Cat…it wasn’t.
      Now you’re disrespecting Brian and hunting anyone who wants to be here over to Quarantine.
      Just stop Cameron.
      Think about puting your links up like Nanna ( or not ) but you can’t keep on disrupting the main thread.
      I’ve lost count of the time’s your friends have tried to tell you …. But that seems to make you react rather than think.
      Please just stop, your disrupting the threads and giving the Trolls a foothold to do it too…
      While I’ll be the first to defend you if they start in on you,please know that if you force Ruglonian report you to the Rev she’ll be adding my name too!

    375. CameronB Brodie says:

      Fine, I should just leave my future to those who’s opinion is less informed though perhaps more convenient than mine? I’ll say my piece when and how I feel like it, TA. And I’ll leave the site management up to the Rev.

    376. Liz g says:

      What on earth makes ye think I’m less informed than you?
      Are you being nasty to me now?

    377. Rev. Stuart Campbell says:

      Okay. My view is keep it the hell out of OT.

    378. CameronB Brodie says:

      Liz g
      Not at all Liz, but I’m trained to see the world in particular ways that were recommended to me on good authority. And to approach the law from a direction that supports public health and sustainable strategies towards human development. I’d have thought this ethical perspective and skill-set relevant and pretty much essential to us having any hope for our futures. All I’m trying to do is at least introduce folk to a world-view that might be unknown to them.

      My training and limited practice was a long time ago, but I don’t think my perspective should be objected to. That’s all I’m saying. I’m not suggesting I should be listened to, just because. I’d have thought I’d have supplied enough evidence to back-up my claim that I know a bit about this stuff.

    379. CameronB Brodie says:

      Rev. Stuart Campbell
      Sorry, I posted before refreshing.

    380. Tinto Chiel says:

      @BDTT 9.40 went to bed early so missed your query (and everything else). I’d completely forgotten about Twinkle and that lugubrious number. I presume she got chewed up and spat out by the “industry”. As for Marianne, I never spoke to her again after she waltzed off with yon Jagger πŸ™‚ .

      I hear Duolingo has just released its Finnish course: that should be interesting but I have enough problems keeping my schoolboy French up to snuff.

      Don’t really like Country much but this bunch were pure klass by the way and now we’re run ragged with our toddler Wee One (hence my beauty sleep) I’m expanding its message to include grandparents:

    381. Tinto Chiel says:

      Eftsoons! Scrub that version.This is the one with the excellent posed album cover I meant to post:

    382. schrodingers cat says:

      eu negotiations, when we need irish impartial report, cos the uk msm wont go there

    383. Brian Doonthetoon says:

      Hi TC.

      Further on Twinkle.
      From the link below…

      Her song “Terry” was a teenage tragedy song about the death of a boyfriend in a motorcycle crash. Big Jim Sullivan, Jimmy Page and Bobby Graham were among the high-profile star session musicians who played on the recording,[3] which conjured up a dark mood with its doleful backing vocals, spooky organ, 12-string guitar and slow, emphatic rhythm arranged by Phil Coulter.

      The last single I bought by her was 1982’s cover of The Monkees’ “I’m A Believer”.

    384. Brian Doonthetoon says:

      I also possess a copy of this version of the song in my vinyl collection. Rather quaint…

    385. Tinto Chiel says:

      @BDTT: for some reason she reminds me of Dido.

      Rather dull here today, so I’m trying to brighten myself up with this CS&N wee song which reminds me of one particularly happy summer in the late 60s:

    386. Clapper57 says:

      @ Tinto Chiel

      Hi Tinto, glad we agree on MT about George G…….hope you are well.

      Effie Deans ” I have George Galloway”

      Me : I’ll see your George Galloway (Off) and raise you the Dalai (Mc)Lama….Lol

      Have a good evening…. πŸ™‚

    387. schrodingers cat says:

      george galloway is a gift to us

      bring him on

    388. Tinto Chiel says:

      @Clapper57: yes, what a fall was there from his bravura Senate performance to his creepy pussy-footing about on reality TV.

      Worst of all, he made wearing a fedora much more difficult for geezers of a certain age πŸ˜‰ .


    389. Brian Doonthetoon says:

      You just throw your fedora
      wherever the floor is…

    390. schrodingers cat says:


      if the hat fits

    391. schrodingers cat says:

      just found this on twitter

      Interesting observation.
      Since I blocked a lot of (rev Stu) accounts. My TL has cleared of pro UK,rangers watp,accs.
      Coincidence? You decide.

      for whatever reason stu has decided to go down the route he is presently taking, coming back into the larger indy movement may not be an option.
      a wos list party is probably now a pipe dream

    392. Dorothy Devine says:

      BDTT and Tinto Chiel ,gentlemen prefer blondes eh?

    393. Tinto Chiel says:

      @Dorothy: I’m not a gentleman, so I wouldn’t know πŸ™‚ .

    394. Dorothy Devine says:

      Tinto Chiel , do you mean you are more ‘salt of the earth ‘type or a woman – if that is still an acceptable term these days, my confusion knows no bounds!

    395. Clapper57 says:

      @ Tinto Chiel

      “Worst of all, he made wearing a fedora much more difficult for geezers of a certain age”

      Yeh Tinto..but then he is literally ‘The Cat in the Hat’.

      Remember his infamous words to Rula Lenska on CBB..” Would you like me to be the cat ” ?

      She then said…”No George I would like you, when you fail to get elected in England as an MP or MSP, to try and take on the SNP by standing in Holyrood Scottish elections in 2021 via another political party you create….then you can be your true catty self….that would be purrfect for you”.

      He answered ” Will I get Milk” ?

      I think it was then that Rula phoned the Vet……and it was after that George was neutered…..politically….for eternity…as we will all see in 2021.

    396. schrodingers cat says:

      there is no place for george to go, if he stands on the list, the best he can do is replace an existing unionist list msp. if he stands in a constituency, he will simply undermine the unionist vote there. london will not allow slab and stories to unite into one party

      a cat in a hat indeed.

      better off in a box πŸ™‚

    397. Tinto Chiel says:

      @Dorothy: as the Fib Dems used to say a few years ago (incredibly), I am a “non-woman” (and definitely salty but in an inclusive and supportive way).

      @Clapper57: who could forget George’s cringefest with Rula? To think people thought he was a serious politician at one time. If he’s The New Face of The Union, there is hope for Indy after all.

      As Bugs used to say, “What a maroon!”

    398. Dorothy Devine says:

      Tinto Chiel , thank you for the clarification – I think!

    399. Tinto Chiel says:

      @Dorothy: glad to have cleared that up for you πŸ˜‰ .

      For the record, I ain’t half as salty as Hackalumpoff who usu. only lurks here now.

      “Call me Ishmael.” Indeed!

    400. Tinto Chiel says:

      Two expansive classics from a time when the world was still shit but most of us didn’t realise it yet:

      Fair makes you think:

      Blues getting to you?

      Gone goat nadgering…..

    401. Tinto Chiel says:

      Was just donning my moleskins when I realised you need to swap the captions.

      Or not, as the case may be…..

    402. CameronB Brodie says:

      Sorry for going full Tonto on the MT, but I’m not sure if everyone perceives the true existential nature of political struggle we are in. Or the fast-shrinking window of political opportunity we have.

      DJ Cummerbund – Scatman’s Theme

    403. Dorothy Devine says:

      I’ll just leave this here,
      my favourite Moody Blues song (and man!)

    404. Clapper57 says:

      @ Me 14 July @ 3.17pm

      Oops MSP was meant to be MEP….Lol

      Not a Freudian slip… πŸ˜‰

    405. Hackalumpoff says:

      @Tinto, some salty kwality kutur here, and not a Fedora in sight.

    406. Tinto Chiel says:

      @Dorothy: put yon Justin Hayward down for a minute and sort out your address, please, young lady πŸ˜‰ .

      @Hacka: chust sublime, man, sublime. Surprised to see so many cranes left in Glasgow in 1990 and great to see the misty Cuillin
      again. Wish I was there right now, midges or not.

    407. Dorothy Devine says:

      Tinto Cheil , no so young and may I keep the lovely Justin please?

      The song is Forever Autumn and I have messed up the link twice now, so me and senility will let others hunt it down.

    408. Tinto Chiel says:

      I hope this version is ok for you: have tried not to feed your Justin-obsession too much with excessive images of him πŸ™‚

    409. Dorothy Devine says:

      Tinto Chiel , lovely song and bonny pictures but the bonny boy who sang it wisnae there!

      I found a performance of recent date and he’s a bonny auld mannie noo!

    410. Dorothy Devine says:

      P.S Just discovered he and I were born in the same year.

    411. Tinto Chiel says:

      Dorothy: “But the bonny boy who sang it wisnae there!”

      I know, I can be a Rank Bajin sometimes, hee hee!

      Not wishing to burst your balloon but I hear his crows’ feet have crows’ feet…….



    412. JGedd says:

      @Tinto 12th July

      Now don’t get nervous – this isn’t a billet doux from me to you, but just a follow-up to your remark about the inappropriate purloining of music.

      This piece by Satie has been appropriated for a dog food commercial. Though Erik might have found that amusing.

    413. Tinto Chiel says:

      @JGedd: no probs, you become imperturbable if you’ve been in a Turkish prison πŸ™‚ . I’ve seen that cute wee ad in the cinema or somewhere but the title went over my head. I’m sure Erik would have smiled after his second bottle of absinthe πŸ™‚ .

      A propos of nuffink: I’ve been reading Hugh Thomas’s classic and massive book on the Spanish Civil War which has garnered golden opinions but recently I have been telling friends of my bemusement at his apparent ignorance of the disproportionate contribution of Scots to the International Brigade.

      Generally in the book, HT uses the term England when Britain or the UK would be more correct. At first, I discounted this as simply being rather quaint from a Labour supporter who ended up a Tory peer in the HoL and so was obvs. out of touch with anything beyond Londinium but things began to get on my nazzums when he mentioned two really famous Scots from the period, Jock Cunningham from the Whifflet, Coatbridge and Bob Smillie, an ILP member from Larkhall and son of a famous Scottish MP. Both were bizarrely classified as English (indeed the former was listed as “Anglo-Saxon” late on in the book) and Bob had his name wrongly spelt twice to add insult to injury. I then thought, if he can get these simple facts wrong, what else has he got wrong?

      As TS Eliot said to me via Ouija last night, “After such knowledge, what forgiveness?”

      Ahoo, werewolves, etc…….

      Doesn’t affect me, affect me, affect me.

    414. CameronB Brodie says:

      Happy birthday mate, I hope your wishes come true. πŸ˜‰

      Young At Heart – Frank Sinatra (his original version)

    415. Tinto Chiel says:

      For Hackalumpoff and other soffisticates:

      *Blubs like a girly*

    416. JGedd says:


      Sorry to hear about your Turkish incarceration. I wouldn’t want to probe you further but is that where you picked up dibbling and trellis-wrestling? Those must have been useful skills in the circumstances.

      Re the confusion displayed by a lot of English in being unable to distinguish between England and the UK, isn’t it strange that they don’t make that mistake with the Irish, even those from N.Ireland? They really don’t recognise that it’s a minefield.

      Whenever I’ve broached this inability to distinguish England from Britain or the UK to one of these ‘confused’ English – in the mildest manner – they usually brush it away with varying degrees of irritation as if it’s just quibbling about a common mistake. That’s when I point out that Scots never make that mistake – even those of a unionist persuasion.

    417. Tinto Chiel says:

      @JGedd: thanks for your commiserations but I wish you hadn’t used that little word “probe”. In fact, on reflection, “dibble” too πŸ™‚

      Your comments on English awareness of the Irish is certainly borne out in Thomas’s book: he mentions Irishmen who fought in either the Lincoln or the British Battalion on the republican side and General Eoin O’Duffy, who fought with a few hundred Irishmen on the Fascist side (to little effect). But Scots in Spain? Nada, nada, nada.

      I wouldn’t be too surprised by some ignorance from ordinary English people re terms like British and English but I expect better from a highly-qualified academic. 20% of the British fighters in Spain were Scottish, although they represented only 10% of the UK population.

      Anyhow, nursie says it’s time for my medication so it’s goodnight from me.

      No pasaran!

    418. Tinto Chiel says:

      Mmmmmmm: since the M/T suggests the beyondness of hope, I’ll just leave this to inspire you with some sumptuous chords and key changes:

      And not being remotely partisan but merely trying to edify you with an unlikely story of orgasmatronic football triumph, I offer this:

    419. CameronB Brodie says:

      I don’t mean to lower the cultured tone of OT, but British constitutionalism is in tatters, and in the process of being re imagined in a manner that will harm Scotland and Scottish culture. But it has also shot itself in the foot and no longer has moral force, only AUTHORITARIAN force. So are Scots so domesticated that they are cowed by legal sharp-practice, political dogma, and partisan loyalty?

      DJ Cummerbund – That Which I Desire

    420. Tinto Chiel says:

      A party piece from many family parties when I was a “boey” (along with “The Shooting of Dan McGrew”).

      Black bun!

    421. Tinto Chiel says:

      And they say Rees-Mogg and Farage made all their money with this?

    422. Tinto Chiel says:

      Ok, ok, I’ll admit I’ve been brainwashed by Putin and have been told to put this on here to orient you towards the glorious proletarian sunrise in the East:

      Feelin’ kinda dirty now but I only did it because The Rev is a tool of MI5 πŸ™‚ .

    423. Tinto Chiel says:

      MTS: first the Tories tried to break me with this on a 24 hour loop but we old Commies are made of sterner stuff, ya bass!

    424. Tinto Chiel says:

      From the ridiculous to:

      Bonsoir, mes braves!

    425. Brian Doonthetoon says:

      Here’s a “Caledonia” you may not have heard before…

    426. Cactus says:

      Hey Wingers, mornin, how we doin, bdtt aye πŸ™‚

      Listening to the Classics’, seeking and seeing clarity. What’s gonna happen tomorrow? Questions… SO many questions, but where are the answers?

      Aye’ve got a notion of an idea I’d like to share with y’all, especially you Tartanpigsy & AyeMail… soon soon like…

      S’cot something to do with S C O T L A N D.

      Are you intrigued, reader aye?

      NB meant to say SO much more than I’d previously thought about but just thought I would say aye…

      Guid tae see ye posting William Wallace.

      cheers rev

    427. mike cassidy says:

      Thought some might like to see this photograph.

      A Glasgow street scene from 1942.

    428. Tinto Chiel says:

      @Mike: that’s an amazing foatie and coincidence. I was born in that Penilee development and my dad worked in the Rolls-Royce factory at Hillington.

      Meant to remind all those soffisticates here who have no more box sets to watch because of House Arrest, you might like streaming this series. Sleaze, politics, sex, violence, thrills, spills, fascism and curry wurst, it has it all:

    429. William Wallace says:

      You tae Cactus. I hope you are keeping well.

      I’ve not been posting much at all here or on social media etc as I am slowly coming to terms with just how fucked up this world is right now. The pandemic is obviously disheartening enough but, the situation with regards to independence is also weighing heavy on my heart too. Staying upbeat can be difficult sometimes but, I am trying to remain as positive as I can about everything.

      Had a full year of being alcohol free bar one family funeral that I had to attend so I have quietened right down recently (hence the lack of late night shenanigans). Having said that I couldn’t half do with sinking a few single malts during these troubling times. So many untouched bottles of goodness in the drinks cabinet too πŸ˜‰

      Great to see you are still around (I remember reading you were taking a break from everything) and I hope you and all the rest of the aff-topic crew are in good spirits and keeping in the best of health too.

    430. Dorothy Devine says:

      A wave for Cactus!

    431. JGedd says:


      Is that series on Netflix by ay chance?

      Perhaps in the future a similar drama might be built out of the sleaze, politics, sex, violence etc., of the corrupt little democracy we live in.

      Or perhaps it is all too ridiculously banal and would be the stuff of black farce in a dystopian future where we are just a strip mall in the great Wallmart Imperium.

      With all that Babylonian excess I might have to lie down in a darkened room with some Bach to remind me that the universe out there looks on with indifference. It won’t mean anything in a billion years.

    432. Clapper57 says:

      @ William Wallace @ 12.30am

      Really good to see you on OT again….

      A lot of us feel the same…yes it is indeed hard to be positive when things seems so stagnant on the Indy front….not support for it mind you…. because I think it is higher than they state….remember David Lidington would not disclose the result of a poll he did, when in May’s govt, on support for the Union within Scotland….that non disclosure told the real result did it not.

      Plus the pound shop Fuhrer from down south would never even consider a visit up North North as in Scotland ( to distinguish from what Southerns call the North as in North England) if the polls were not reflecting support for the Union was going in a downward spiral…and worse than official polls state… sure as sheeite more secret polling will have been done by the pound shop Fuhrer’s lackeys … advised by Cummings the data ‘maestro’ ……I would take the 54% with a pinch of salt….has to be far greater.

      Johnson like Trump currently lie with impunity… do all of those in Johnson’s cabinet and Trump’s administration…..but they can only say Black is White for so long before people eventually, via reality, begin to see that it is indeed not ……all sheeite will eventually hit their fan…base.

      The only reason all of the sheeite never sticks to the Tory government and Trump just now is because there is so much of it every day…that in itself may be tactical….but it cannot be sustained….they are building a mountain of trouble and eventually it will crumble and they will fall with it….

      If any Scot watched Johnson yesterday grinning his way through an interview ( aka lecturing Scots) as to the “Might of the UK Union” in relation to the handling of the Corona crisis they would see someone reeling off a slogan learnt and articulated with absolutely no sincerity or conviction indeed a blatant falsehood considering recent polling for Independence and his govt’s atrocious communications and strategy in Corona Virus against devolved govt’s performance and results.

      The Brexiteers may be able to bypass his lies to win Brexit and the Unionists too to ‘save’ the (non) Union but he has seriously miscalculated his audience in Scotland if he thinks he can come up here and convince us Scots of ANY benefit we get from remaining in a Tory run UKnotOK (non) Union led by him, a buffoon, especially when it is blatantly obvious tis the opposite……..BTW, I noted he mentioned renewable energy well I hope he does not think he can control our renewable energy for the benefit of England in the same they they have controlled and abused our Oil and it’s revenues to benefit the English state coffers to build their ‘Make Britain Great again’ vanity projects…..he can GTF …..

      I would say William there is a breaking point for everyone and tis Boris and his band of Tory C*nts that are helping us to have either reached it , or for some, almost be at that point….the Union or non Union cannot be sustained and Boris Johnson is the proverbial ‘straw that WILL break the Camel’s back’…..or in Scots ‘the bawbag that will break the (non)Union Jack’…Lol

      Take care and have a lovely day….for some day soon (hopefully sooner rather than later) every day will be lovely in a Tory/Labour/Lib Dem HQ free independent Scotland.( Branch offices to be greatly diminished too)…. πŸ™‚


    433. Tinto Chiel says:

      @JGedd: you can get BB on Amazon Prime but it may also be streamed on Netflix. It seems to be on Firestick too, I think.

      A Scottish equivalent like Gomorrah Glasgow (geddit?) would never be made because nothing as creative, political, expensive, brutally realistic, ambitious and subversive would ever be permitted and the high-end levels of investment required would be impossible to find for a merely Scottish subject.

      A wee diddy country gets the media and film industry it deserves but we have only ourselves to blame. The Scottish Cringe and the highway to Londinium are two baleful influences for those with a colonised mentality and little knowledge of their own country’s history or culture.

      Never mind, there’s always River City, pronounced as Sean Connery would πŸ˜‰ .

    434. hackalumpoff says:

      @ Tinto I don’t really like “period stuff” but Babylon Berlin was excellent, watched it on NOW TV. Seem to watch nothing but foreign programmes now with subtitles as certain accents grate and initiate a disturbing xenophobic response.

      @ William Wallace good to hear from you, same sentiments here, still enjoy a libation though.

    435. JGedd says:

      Thanks Tinto. Don’t do Amazon Prime anymore but will have a look on Netflix.

      Don’t know about the ‘sleaze, sex and violence’ though. I get enough of that at home. And curry wurst plays havoc with my digestion.

      ( The trouble with most of the Scots today is that they have lost the ability to imagine. They conceive of Scotland as being small and insignificant and so their dreams are consequently small. That was the genius of Thatcher. She was petit bourgeois to the tips of her iron claws and knew that they could be bought off with a mortgage.)

      I hope Cactus has come up with a cunning plan. It feels very much like Blackadder’s last episode and we are stuck in the trenches waiting for the whistle to go over the top for Brexit with no way, so far, of getting out of the whole disaster.

    436. Tinto Chiel says:

      @hackalumpoff: thanks for the Now TV tip off. Didn’t know it was on there. Filming of the next series was stopped because of House Arrest but they should be starting soon.

      “Period stuff”? It is almost our period, hee hee!

    437. JGedd says:

      @ Tinto

      I replied to you about the series you referred to but the reply was held in moderation then it disappeared. I don’t know in what way I transgressed but I don’t think I will comment any more since it’s like entering a minefield.

      Some people might be relieved. Good luck to all anyway (if this gets through.)

    438. Ian Brotherhood says:

      Just popped in to see what’s what – hoots aplenty!!!

      Cactus, Clapper, William Wallace, TC, JGedd, DorothyD, MikeC and Hackalumpoff in rapid succession?!?

      ‘Tis a veritable cornucopia, or maybe a smorgasbord, but whatever it is, ’tis indeed most welcome!

      I salute you all!

      *stands up, starts sobbing, sits down again*

      πŸ™‚ πŸ™‚ πŸ™‚

    439. Tinto Chiel says:

      @JGedd: your comment may have had The R Word in some combination, where even the fruit of the vine can trip The Rev’s filter. Or maybe it inadvertently went beyond the end of the internet hoping to swing back eventually behind Pluto: that’s often the problem πŸ™‚ .

      I sc*raped an O-Grade in Physics.

      My advice: scan and resubmit, Earthling.

    440. Tinto Chiel says:

      @JGedd: same thing just happened to me.

    441. Ian Brotherhood says:

      This comment was moderated last night…trying again, with a couple of **

      Just popped in to see what’s what – hoots aplenty!!!

      Ca**us, Clapper, William Wallace, TC, JGedd, DorothyD, MikeC and Hackalumpoff in rapid succession?!?

      β€˜Tis a veritable cornucopia, or maybe a smorgasbord, but whatever it is, ’tis indeed most welcome!

      I salute you all!

      *stands up, starts sobbing, sits down again*

      ? ? ?

    442. JGedd says:

      @TC and IB

      I mentioned Ca**us without asterisks. You don’t think that could be it, do you?

      There was nothing offensive – even though Thatcher might have got some (mild) criticism in the passing. It’s difficlt tiptoeing through a minefield without a map.

    443. Ian Brotherhood says:

      @JGedd –

      It does seem to be the mere mention of the big yin’s handle.

      He Who Must Not Be Named!


    444. Tinto Chiel says:

      @various soffisticates: The Prickly One (ironic since he is a gentle and mellow chappie) defo trips the filter. I mentioned R*th D*vids*n by name and (forgetting my own advice) used the word scr*ped and both post are still in limbo, probs never to return.

    445. Tinto Chiel says:

      Just heard Peter Green died today, the man with an amazing blues voice whose life was affected by a really bad drugs experience, perhaps not too fancifully foretold here:

      FW were never the same without him.

    446. hackalumpoff says:

      @ Tinto much weirdness, first PG/FM tune I thought of too.
      Did you have mushrooms for dinner or are you just a
      RIP Peter Green

    447. Tinto Chiel says:

      On a lighter note, from a time when bands could play thae instrument hings:

      and finally, a more romantic side to The Great Man:

    448. Tinto Chiel says:

      @Hacka: yes, so many great songs from him and MoTW was one of his saddest and finest.

      He will be remembered fondly.

      Would a malt salute be in order?

      PS: it’s too early for that species of mushroom.

    449. Juteman says:

      I would have popped in here sooner if i knew folk were ‘liberal’ minded. πŸ™‚

    450. hackalumpoff says:

      @Tinto as there are no suitable fungii I think a Three Finger salute of 18 YO Dalmore should suffice.

    451. Tinto Chiel says:

      @Juteman: welcome behind The Green Door. We are few but very broad-minded……

      @Hacka: bugger! I’ve only got a scanty dram of Glenlivet 12-y-o left and no back up bottle.

      My wife understands me πŸ˜‰ .

    452. Ian Brotherhood says:

      @TC –

      I have a feeling yon C**tus would probably quite like the idea of being known as The Man With No Name.


    453. Brian Doonthetoon says:

      Hi peeps.
      Still reading but had nothing to contribute – until now.

      Saw Fleetwood Mac at the Caird Hall on their “Farewell” tour in 1969. PG a sad loss.

      Onnyhoo, “need your love so bad”. There is a version of that on t’internet without the overdubbed strings. The session is on YouTube. Two or three false starts before it gets going.

      Also, an acoustic version of Caesar!tross…
      “Peter Green’s troubles since his departure from Fleetwood Mac in the early 70’s are well documented. After a number of years in the wilderness he returned in the mid 90’s in the guise of the Peter Green Splinter Group and recaptured the magic of his early days.
      This concert, recorded in England in 2003, is made up of two sets. The first is a pared down acoustic set of predominantly vintage blues finished off by the all-time Fleetwood Mac classic Caesar!tross, one of the most popular instrumentals ever written.”

    454. Tinto Chiel says:

      @Ian B: bechabygollywow, me old haricot. Would he be riding a horse like this?

      I’ll get my Crombie……..

    455. mike cassidy says:

      Peter Green was probably my only musical hero in the way that you have musical heroes when you’re a spotty youth.

      He was gone by the time I think I saw Fleetwood Mac at the Raith Ballroom in Kirkcaldy.

      As someone who has never been blessed with the recall that most have for the past,

      The only thing I remember is phoning the Raith to ask if there would be dress restrictions.

      Wear your jamys if you like.

      I sometimes wonder if it was an anticipated gig that never took place.

      Even google doesn’t help with this one.

    456. Brian Doonthetoon says:

      Hi mike cassidy.

      A couple of links for you, via Google!

      Check out,
      Tam Moderator
      Fri Aug 01, 2008 1:57 pm


    457. mike cassidy says:

      Ta, Brian

      I’d seen the ‘Tam’ list

      And judging by his list he would have been gigging at the time

      But doesn’t mention the where for Fleetwood Mac.

      (although the second article says they played the Raith)

      He mentions the famous Kirkcaldy YM

      Where we probably both saw a previous Peter Green band

      John Mayall’s Bluesbreakers (5th April 1968)

      With future Stone Mick Taylor on lead.

    458. Dorothy Devine says:

      Ian Brotherhood , a wee wave to you too!

      I like the idea of our prickly pal being the Man With No Name – at least he’s got the hat.

    459. Tinto Chiel says:

      Forgot to play my final PG/FW track yesterday.

      Warning: Douce Matrons of Scotland, do not click on this link:


    460. Macart says:

      @ Tinto Chiel

      Mibbies not so few as you’d think behind the green door. πŸ˜‰

    461. Tinto Chiel says:

      @Macart: LTNS. Hope you and family are all well.

      Put the beer in the kitchen. Care for a Hula Hoop?

    462. Macart says:

      @ TC

      Been better fella. Still trying to keep up despite some personal difficulties of recent times.

      Just about ready for both beer and hula hoops. πŸ™‚

      Also? Sick of this damn tablet and it’s weird touch screen typing…. (mutters darkly)

    463. Tinto Chiel says:

      Sorry to hear that.

      I think we could all do with some healthy socialising. It’s good for morale.

      Orrabestorratime πŸ™‚

    464. Dorothy Devine says:

      Macart , a wee wave to you too Sam and hope things improve.

    465. Michael McCabe says:

      Just popping in to wish you all a good Sunday.

    466. Macart says:

      @ Dorothy Devine

      Hi Dorothy

      Thanks for the shout and they will. πŸ™‚

      Lost a family member during this crisis. Couldn’t visit in hospital and you can imagine the rest. Right now dealing with everything long distance and remote access.

      It’s a bit… on the challenging side. Mrs M. Keeping me right though.

    467. Clapper57 says:

      @ mike Cassidy on 25 July

      Hi Mike my hubby saw Fleetwood Mac with Peter Green he thinks it was in 1969 ???…he is also one of my husband’s heroes.

      We both went to see him twice in Edinburgh with his band The Splinter Group…one gig was at the Usher Hall in Edinburgh where he was supporting John Mayall and the other time I’m not sure where in Edinburgh but remember it was a small venue…but we did notice the other guitarist in the band did most of solo work at the gigs.

      It was so sad….such a brilliant and innovative guitarist.

      Really sad we are losing so many heroes and great musicians…my husband and I both saw Johnny Winter in London once and he had to spend most of the gig sitting down playing the guitar….but he still had it …..a really great guitarist…though he was obviously not a well man….

      Have a nice day tomorrow Mike

      Hope everyone else is well….Tinto chiel/JGedd & Ian B & all others who post in OT

      ps Macart really nice to see your posts on here….though I am so sorry about your sad news….Take care


    468. Brian Doonthetoon says:

      Hi peeps.

      I may not acknowledge every comment in ‘off-topic’ but I do read them all. I even click on most of the links. Not everything is of interest but, that’s life, iye?

      Onnyhoo, it’s good to see a crowd of long-term Wingers contributing here, away from the ‘melee’ that can be a feature of the latest page.

      So which video will I link to tonight? This one. I don’t think it’s been featured here before. The day I bought it, I was unemployed. Got back to the house, had dinner then retired to my bedroom.
      Stuck this on my Dansette, with the arm up for repeat play and had it on all afternoon.

    469. Tinto Chiel says:

      @JGedd: I see Da Man has kindly released our Grate Thotts to delight intellectuals and lobey dossers everywhere.

      “The trouble with most of the Scots today is that they have lost the ability to imagine. They conceive of Scotland as being small and insignificant and so their dreams are consequently small. That was the genius of Thatcher. She was petit bourgeois to the tips of her iron claws and knew that they could be bought off with a mortgage.”

      Exactly, or lumbered with a mortgage so they wouldn’t go on a prolonged strike: smart move, Mags.

      It’s a sad part of being human that incredibly limited and emotionally stunted people often get to the top and do tremendous damage. She wasn’t on the same scale as Franco, Hitler or Stalin, obviously but she sent the UK down a dark path and damaged so many people’s lives, particularly in working-class communities, and unleashed the privatised hound called “Greed is Good”. She had no sense of humour at all (e.g. her unaware comment “Everyone needs a Willie!” when praising Whitelaw’s fixing abilities) and would probably take a spanner to a poem.

      Poverty of imagination here is one of our greatest problems, along with the mind-forged manacles of incessant Britnat propaganda which most Scots carry along with them. Even the SNP defers to an English notion of sovereignty, ffs (yer actual French).

      Don’t have an easy answer but it gets more and more difficult to travel aroung Europe without being embarrassed about what we Scots did in 2014.

      *Stares bleakly out the French windows*

      “Was it for this the clay grew tall?” (peotry).

    470. Macart says:

      @ Clapper57

      Appreciated Clapper.

      I tend to read and lurk on sites mostly these days. Still like to say hi to chums now and again.

    471. JGedd says:


      I’ve only just discovered that those comments have been released to the astonishment of the world. Well, maybe one or two folk – as as well as all the little people who live in my cupboard.( They love me, you know.) Transformative or what?

      Liked your comment on the MT about the Office of Circumlocution. Plenty of Dickensian grotesques in the Scottish establishment it appears. There goes any daft idea that maybe Scotland could be a little different.

      Had to bail out on reading the MT before I ended up sobbing on the floor with my thumb in my mouth.

      And so to bed…

    472. Tinto Chiel says:

      @JGedd: so you’re the guy who kidnapped The Borrowers amd locked them up? Wondered why I hadn’t seen them recently. You fiend!

      Fortunately when I get to the foetal, thumb-sucking, carpet-biting stage I have Harvey to snap me out of it.

      I put Pravdasound 4 on when I’m in the kitchen slaving for my carer and they have definitely ramped up this “New Normal/Nothing Is Ever Going To Be The Same Again” narrative, which is really just Establishment code for “Hey peons, we’re going to grind you further into the dust”. They even worked it clunkily into a programme about travelling to Mars yesterday. Laugh? I almost split my sauce!

      The thing is, Ian B posted this at the end of a thread recently but nobody seemed to notice: :

      Just reading the Lockstep section alone makes you think we’re in the middle of someting very, very worrying. The opaque pseudo-academic language is always a very bad sign, of course.

      Och, I’m sure it’ll be fine.

      Ahoo, werewolves, etc.

    473. JGedd says:


      (My little people are very happy in their cupboard and grateful to stay there safe from the perils outside. I am a saviour to my little people, not a fiend, thank you very much, and they think they are better together – in a cupboard. They’ve got lots of little flags which pleases them no end and a postage stamp of the Queen which they worship.

      Thanks to you and IB for that link. Much reading for later but I dipped quickly into Lockstep. I see what you mean. Do these people have a specialist Thesaurus? It might be some light reading after re-reading Shock Doctrine. I shouldn’t do it to myself since I feel like burstin’ oot greetin’.)

    474. Tinto Chiel says:

      @JGedd: give my best to your Smaa Folk but I wouldn’t get too complacent about them , given their teeny-weeny Royalist views. They might clype on you for offending them by having Vile Sep Tendencies when the SG Hate Speech Bill becomes law.

      That pseudo-academic/PR speak is everywhere in official documents and is just there to obscure what the buggers are up to and to drain your spirit, innit bruv?

      Time for one of Harvey’s Old Fashioneds……….

    475. Brian Doonthetoon says:

      And back to music…

      In 1968, I found this wummun exceedingly, aesthetically acceptable. I still have a full page poster of her in my hovelhold, from Fabulous 208 magazine.

    476. Brian Doonthetoon says:

      Also, this wummun from 1968…


    477. Brian Doonthetoon says:

      No wimmun involved in this Scottish classic…

      And that’s me for tonight.

    478. CameronB Brodie says:

      Just because.

      Cabaret Voltaire – Do The Mussolini (Headkick)

    479. Tinto Chiel says:

      Popcorn time:

      A. Sim was a fine comic actor, innit?

    480. JGedd says:


      Thanks for that link. Going to watch that later. It’ll be a guiltless pleasure and escape from the sad mess & chicanery of Scottish politics.

      Also having complained about the lack of Tippett on Radio3, last week I caught Tippett’s ‘Fantasia Concertante’ (beautiful) and an opera of his, ‘The Midsumme Marriage'(interesting).

      The Fantasia has long been a favourite but I had only heard that opera once many years ago and the plot is a bit…strange. (I know. It’s opera) It’s a bit like ‘The Golden Bough’ meets ‘The Magic Flute’. The ideas of the opera are inspired by Tippett’s experience of the Second World War. Despite being a pacifist he was moved by the willingness of human beings to die for others and the inexorable drive for life’s constant renewal.

      Anyway, though it might be a while before I listen to The Midsummer Marriage in its entirety again, the suite of Ritual Dances from The Midsumme Marriage has been a favourite over many years.

      (There are programme notes I’m afraid since this version doesn’t provide them!)

      There are 4 dances representing the seasons and prey and predator in each. So Prelude: then 1. Earth in Autumn ( hare & hound) 2. Water in Winter ( salmon & otter) 3. Air in Spring (dove & hawk) 4. Fires of Midsummer ( the voluntary sacrifice).

      His orchestration is beautifully evocative & descriptive, especially the salmon & otter where I can see the relentless chase with the otter matching the salmon’s desperate acquabatics like a fish-seeking missile.

      Have a good day in the (present) good weather everyone.

    481. Tinto Chiel says:

      @JG: have never been Tippettised but will give it a go once I have calmed down from today’s infamy/perfidy and will consult your “sleeve notes” πŸ˜‰ .

      My carer got me some orgasmatronic Sennheiser wi-fi headphones for Christmas and I find they are very detailed (considering they aren’t hard-wired).

      Thunder and lightning and stair-rod rain here. Suits my mood.

    482. Tinto Chiel says:

      For Young ‘Uns a bit perplexed by the SAHB echoes of today’s Cairns cartoon:

      A performance worthy of Cabaret Voltaire act, surely?

    483. JGedd says:


      Sorry to have mugged you with Tippett yesterday. Nursing a broken limb so my lockdown is almost total and consequently too much time on my hands. Won’t do it again.

    484. Tinto Chiel says:

      No mugging involved at all. Listened to it last night while my carer binged some esipode from her Gray’s Lobotomy box set. A weird plot but the music was full of energy and the part writing very clear. Must try his Piano Concerto.

      Sorry to hear you’re plastered. I met a pal in Glasgow and it was a bit of a morale booster: the pub had been painted and varnished and irradiated and the bar food excellent. Waitress service so no jostling at the bar, very civilised.

    485. JGedd says:

      @ Tinto

      Oh well, not so bad an experience then. (The Tippett, I mean.) I’m relieved. You should also listen to his Fantasia Concertante which is beautiful but has been appropriated on occasion by media types for their dramas.

      I’m not actually plastered – well not often. It’s actually the broken neck of a femur, no plastering involved but metalwork, ‘a dynamic femur screw’. It’s the only thing dynamic about me.

      I was awake during the operation and the surgeon had an admiring audience of other doctors in observing, oohing and aahing, and saying things like, *Oh, that’s beautiful.” I’m assuming they were talking about his handiwork.

      Sounds like a good night out at the pub. I live vicariously off other people’s social evenings at the moment. When one of my sons mentions having gone out for the evening I want to know every detail, just as if they were teenagers again. I think they find it a bit irritating.

    486. Tinto Chiel says:

      Thanks, that was a wonderful piece of string writing and I’m sure I’ve heard it before, probably in an advert for haemorrhoids or erectile disfunction medication: these “media types” have a lot to answer for.

      I like this other famous fantasy very much:

      And this is another piece often used in dramas and films as a mood-maker and probably the only Britten composition most folk will hear in their lives:

      I would describe my lovely pub food, the enormous, glistening gantry of deep-hued malt whiskies and the various fragrant draught beers but it would be quite cruel in your present condition. It sounds seriously nasty and I hope you’re able to get out and about in the not too distant future.

    487. Dan says:

      Pah with your pub food Tinto.

      Oot fishing earlier, then lifted a shaw of my Salad Blue tatties and an onion. Ingredients sourced and proceeded to make Pike Fish cakes. Served with some of my carrots and runner beans cooked al dente, and a few sautΓ©d chanterelles I picked on the walk back from the fishing.

      Tried posting this on main thread to follow from my previous post re. GCHQ, but getting a duplicate comment blocking it from posting. I’ve had this weird techy issue before so if someone can add it that’d be braw and muchos appreciated. πŸ™‚


      Re. My last post. From a month ago.

    488. Dan says:

      Scrub that last request, it’s appeared now.

      Last episode of Dark to watch for me tonight.

      Tune from series that pricked my ears.

      May and Robert Koch – Bad Kingdom

    489. Tinto Chiel says:

      @Dan The Fisher King: I’ve never knowingly eaten pike. Is it easy to fillet? Surely it’s good for more than fishcakes?

      Yes, I saw that disgraceful tweet on the M/T. Yet the hyper-sensitive FM (if you’re Michelle Thomson, Grousey or Hanvey) says nothing and lets these weirdos spew their offensive bile all over the internet. WTFIGO?

      Aplogies for an off-topic off-topic comment πŸ˜‰ .

      Nicely dark music but I’m not usually a fan of sci-fi films.

      P.S. I hope your fungi identification is up to scratch, me old haricot!

    490. Dan says:


      Youtube has some really great vids on stuff like processing and filleting different types of food. Pike and Perch can be made boneless with a little practice.
      Is it a cultural thing that we seem so fussy and accustomed to fillets where as baking a whole fish and picking the meat off the bone is often a very good way of getting more out of the fish. Though of course we do go off piste with an Arbroath Smokie…

      This was just a small Pike I kept today. I always put larger ones back and as I’m interested in conservation I’ve learnt to sex the fish too! Behave, that doesn’t mean what you think although a sharp whack on the napper does pretty much fuck them…
      Pike will predate on each other until they get to a decent size, so putting back females and only keeping males helps as a large female is safe from getting chomped and can mate with a wee guy (if of course that suits their genders!).

      The flesh on fish a few pounds upwards in weight is pretty firm and will take a bit of cooking without turning to mush like a haddock fillet, this means it is great for certain dishes. I produced a pretty epic Pike Jalfrezi many years ago much to my visiting family’s amazement.

      Mushroom wise, you’d have to be trippin’ to muck up identifying a chanterelle! πŸ˜‰

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