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The suicide squad

Posted on June 29, 2016 by

The UK is currently a non-functioning democracy. The Prime Minister has handed in his notice and has no nominated successor. The leader of the Opposition has just been served with a vote of no confidence by 80% of his own MPs. Parliamentarians are openly discussing overturning the result of a democratic referendum. People are pretending that Angela Eagle is a credible future Prime Minister.


The country, in short, has lost its mind.

In the clip above from yesterday’s news, Eagle is seen weeping because she chose to resign a meaningless shadow-cabinet post, despite her own constituency party asking her to support the party’s democratically-elected leader.

God help us if there was a war – Vladimir Putin might say something beastly about her hairdo and give the British PM a complete nervous breakdown. Yet we’re being asked to believe that Jeremy Corbyn is so unelectable that Labour would have a better chance with this woman in charge.

(Or possibly Tom Watson, last seen posting Snapchat pics of himself glomping about at Glastonbury like some sort of hippy Nero as his country and party disintegrated.)


So as the Tories send the UK hurtling towards the EU exit door and a future of the imbecilic Boris Johnson leading the nation, let’s review the state of the Labour Party – the only alternative proposed by those who maintain that Scotland is better served by staying with Westminster.


1. Jeremy Corbyn was elected just nine months ago by an overwhelming landslide of Labour members, winning a greater mandate than even Tony Blair.

2. Since then he’s performed pretty averagely, despite being constantly undermined by his own MPs, who were plotting a coup against him before he was even elected.


Against lurid predictions of catastrophe, Labour have done fine in by-elections and council elections, won the London mayoral election and closed the gap on the Tories in the polls, which just before Corbyn’s election as leader stood as high as 14 points.

3. The excuse being used for the coup is that Corbyn didn’t do enough to persuade Labour supporters to vote Remain in the EU referendum. Yet 63% did – just 1% fewer than the share among SNP voters, which has conspicuously failed to trigger demands for Nicola Sturgeon’s resignation.


We’re somewhat less than convinced that the Labour “heartland” areas which voted Leave in large numbers would have been turned around had an Islington MP shouted at them more stridently that they should stop blaming immigrants for poverty.

4. Arguing against this, the plotters claim that Labour would have performed better in the elections and the referendum had it had a different leader, despite not a shred of material evidence existing that there’s any potential leader the public likes any more than Corbyn. He is, in effect, being judged against a phantom.


5. Labour has an established procedure for a leadership challenge – 50 MPs have to back a new contender, at which point there’s a vote. Yet the “rebels” chose instead to publicly quit one-by-one over a period of several days, ensuring that the story stayed in the news all weekend rather than the chaos of Brexit.

The idea of this was to pressure Corbyn into resigning without anyone having to stand up against him – something that the briefest of glances at Corbyn’s long history of stubborn rebellion would have indicated was never going to happen.

6. With all the shock of the tide coming in, the Sun rising in the morning and bears having a toilet break among trees, Corbyn has emphatically refused to do so, saying that anyone who wants his job can come and fight for it. Polling currently suggests that he’ll win any new contest comfortably.


(54% of Labour voters want Corbyn to stay. Of the named alternatives in today’s Times/YouGov poll, Hilary Benn is top with just 12%. Of those likely to actually stand against Corbyn, Tom Watson has a feeble 4% and Angela Eagle a laughable 1%.)

7. Knowing this, the plotters are frantically trying to have a leader who was elected nine months ago with more than three times the vote share of his nearest rival banned by law from even running in the contest.


This opens up the gruesome possibility of the contest being fought out in the courts for months before a single vote can be cast.

8. Should Corbyn win again, the party will surely shatter. 172 of Labour’s 232 MPs – 74% – will have announced in advance that they can’t work with their newly-elected leader. They’ll have no option but to resign the whip, either sitting as independents, joining another party, or forming a brand-new one.

(Remarkably, a furious David Blunkett insisted on television last night that the people supporting Corbyn – that is, over 250,000 party members – should be the ones to split away from the 172 party members opposing him, meaning that each MP considers their opinion to carry more weight than that of 1,462 ordinary members.)

9. If more of the 60 Labour MPs who would be left join the 172 – which is possible, as only 40 MPs actually voted for Corbyn in yesterday’s confidence motion – the SNP could become the official Opposition, with 54 MPs.

10. Alternatively, if most of the “rebels” form a new breakaway Labour offshoot, the new party would become the official Opposition, despite not a single person in Britain having voted for its MPs as such.


Individual MPs are not obliged to stand down and fight a by-election if they change party, but having it done en masse to the extent that a new Opposition was formed would surely be democratically unsustainable.

The country would then be faced with something in the region of 200 by-elections simultaneously. The new party would probably be unable to afford to fight them all, as it would have no members paying subscription fees and no support from trade unions. Without funds for an effective campaign, it would almost certainly end up splitting the Labour vote and allowing the Tories or UKIP to take some of the seats.

11. There’s no guarantee that the rebels would actually give up even after a defeat in the leadership election, though. Yesterday in the Spectator some were quoted saying that “if necessary [we] will have to hold repeated votes and leadership contests in order to dislodge him”, which is a mindboggling prospect.

12. It’s of course possible that Corbyn could lose the leadership election. At this point, Labour would also shatter. A large proportion of the 200,000 new members who joined either expressly to elect Corbyn or as a result of his election would very likely leave, taking their membership fees with them. But his supporters in the Parliamentary party would have no reason to quit, and would become a toxic Militant-style faction.

13. At some point during this mayhem – next week, to be precise – the Chilcot Report will be released, setting off a fresh bout of internecine warfare within the party.

14. On top of all that, there may or may not be a UK general election in October, which Labour would either have to fight in the middle of an insanely bitter leadership contest or in the middle of an explosive split, and in either event with a leader that roughly half of the party’s MPs and members would consider an incompetent imbecile, a backstabbing traitor, or both.

(Our money would normally be against a general election, but the Tories may not be able to resist the chance to have one in those circumstances, confident that they’d not only win a personal mandate for the new PM but greatly increase their majority.)


So there you go, Scotland. If you want to stay in the UK, it’s looking like the Tories with Boris Johnson or Theresa May as Prime Minister, and the country out of Europe, for however many decades it takes for Labour to put itself back together again.

If only there was some other choice, eh?

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  1. 30 06 16 20:05

    The suicide squad | Stuff from the Internet | ...

668 to “The suicide squad”

  1. Ken500 says:

    France is more equal and in less debt with a falling population but the economy under economic stress. Strikes mass demonstration, terrorist consideration. Hollande extremely unpopular and considered incompetent. Less debt – in the Eurozone. Open to pressure and persuasion? To reach agreement.

    Spain’s economy tanked. 2008. It’s unrestricted over borrowing from London lending markets. Fleecing ‘foreigners’. House building and housing/building bubble. Still having an adverse effect. They only work 8 months of the year. A month’s holiday at Easter, Christmas and two months at summer, (like Westminster) but the whole economy. Rajoy does not have a full majority in Spanish Parliament. Bribery and Corruption is rife. High debt. Low economic activity.

    Spain needs EU support, EU is willing to support Scotland. Rajoy needs to support Scotland for EU member support. 40 million population. (Catalonia 5 million pop, has more fiscal powers than Scotland as part of a federal Spain.) Needs people money for investment. Migration is a problem because of high unemployment, but flourishing black market because of tight labour restrictions. Beautiful country with lovely people. Relaxed nice lifestyle but too much (corrupt?) bureaucracy. Open to pressure and persuasion? To reach agreement.

    Hollande and Rajoy and two unpopular leaders who do not have majority support in their countries. They need friends in the EU. A bit like Cameron – even more unpopular in the EU. They are probably glad to see the back of English politicians trying to cause trouble all the time. ‘Why are you here?’ says Juncker. (Ex Luxembourg PM). Luxembourg, a small country got wealthy on tax evasion Tax haven. Now changed. All has been forgiven?

  2. Breeks says:

    Please, just one big hitter, SNP, Green, Independent, tourist on a long weekend from Mars, please, somebody call time on the BBC. Let it begin.

    Brexit would not have happened, could not have happened, if the BBC had not laid the groundwork first. BBC baaad.

    It feeds peoples’ dillusions, and turns every drama into a crisis. BBC baaad.

    So what if the BBC does go mental? Let them froth at the mouth. We have truth. We have evidence. We have cause and effect. We have motive. We have opportunity. We have YES and Brexit. BBC baaad. BBC f’king psychotic.

    We stand on the threshold where a single step forward will see us entering a whole new chapter and era which Scotland has neither tasted nor enjoyed for three centuries. Go on! Go forward! In a short, short time we will see the BBC for the grubby, manipulative, little picture troll that it is, and we will wonder what spell, or curse more like, we were under that we ever listened to it. We won’t be angry, because it will all be irrelevant and we will have better things to do.

  3. naked pedro says:

    Just a minor point. You say at the start of the article that the UK is a democracy. It’s a monarchy, which surely is totally undemocratic?

    Just sayin’

  4. Ruby says:

    Where’s ‘Stoogie Woogie’ when I need him. I want an answer to the following question:

    What does England & Wales trade with all these new markets that they are hoping to open up?

    I probably wouldn’t have to ask that question if we had a decent media that gave answers to these questions.

  5. One_Scot says:

    The Daily Record revelling that Nicola Sturgeon WILL hold a second referendum.

    The only problem is, I don’t believe a word this lying rag prints.

  6. Ken500 says:

    The BBC is controlled and funded by Westminster, Westminster control and manipulate the MSM. Owned by Non Doms so they can all tax evade – £Billions. Do not believe a word of it it is a con. False information. Check the Internet or other sources outwith the UK as well, for balance.

    Westminster put D notices on the Press and threaten them with prison (for telling the truth), and the public do not even know about it. Westminster/Unionists use D notices to hide their crimes under the Official Secrets Act, for over thirty years.

    Cameron/Osbourne/Johnston/Gove etc took a year to crash the UK/world economy. They have 1st Class degrees from Oxford which is overfunded with £Millions/Billions of public money. A money pit. There is something seriously wrong with the English education system and the Tory Party. It’s about time they took in more tests,

  7. Craig P says:


    Things will balance out but London might never be the same again in terms of its banking hegemony. Here’s hoping.

    London wasn’t always a major banking centre. Other places like Amsterdam and Lombardy were powerhouses earlier. So does this mean London’s time might be done? I don’t think so, because it is plugged into so many of the world’s tax havens. It is the global centre of money laundering, with links to Bermuda, Channel Islands, Isle of Man, etc. I think its decline will only come about when a co-ordinated global effort is made to eradicate tax havens.

  8. Grouse Beater says:

    Do ‘Older Comments’ get concessionary rates? (Jist askin’.)

    Happier news here to pass to friends:

  9. Does anyone know the value of the fish that are caught in Scottish waters,

    not just by Scottish boats but by all the other countries boats that England allow to fish our waters?

  10. Big Jock says:

    David Martin MEP -:” If we get access to the single market then it doesn’t matter if we go out of the EU”. ” Lets wait a few years and see what deal the UK gets”.

    So glad we have such a big brain on the panel! Christ does he really not get this. Firstly it’s about keeping our EU identity and passport.Then it’s our cultural ties. Then it’s about democracy, we voted to stay in not be dragged out by England. Thirdly he wants us to rely on England cutting a deal and waiting a few years! By which stage it will be too late and we will be out of the EU.

    Here’s the deal David. England voted out and we voted in. We are staying in not getting scraps from WM and letting them make our decisions cause they keep fecking them up. We will have our independence referendum to keep us in while England continues with Brexit. We have to do it within the next six months as article 50 will be triggered in September if not before.

    If anyone thinks that the Scottish Labour party have changed. They haven’t they still want England ruling Scotland and will allow Scotland to get dragged out. Kezia suggesting she is interested in the Shadow Scottish secretaries job shows one thing. She see’s Scotland as continuing in the UK come what may.

    I hope this panel concludes in the next week or so as we need to get the referendum through quickly. So far the one member we have heard has been playing the same old record.

  11. galamcennalath says:

    Grouse Beater says:

    “Theresa May says she’s going to ‘unite’ the country.”

    You never know what Tories mean when they say ‘country’. And, as always, what they say and what they mean are rarely be the same. And, do they even know what they mean?

    England? UK? Or, UK perceived as Greater England.

    They all have much on their plates, but I think it is clear that they aren’t minded to spend much time on any special considerations for Scotland.

    Perhaps the only one showing honesty is Farage with his comment caught on camera in the EU parliament! I’m sure that is exact how most of WM now feels regarding Scotland.

  12. Effijy says:

    That poster about Keeping Calm seems to make good sense today.

    Let’s not aggravate anyone!

    Not tagging a potential enemy as an enemy, is the first step in making an ally.

    I’d request some help from the WoS team on this, if you are in agreement?

    I haven’t been achieving anything, regrettably, but I recall that wonderful piece that showed how much Scotland had of Europe’s resources, such as 70% of Fish Stocks, Oil,
    Sheep, Timber etc, etc.

    If that could be located and posted again, would our bi-lingual members perhaps be able to translate these facts into Spanish, French, German, and all languages that we can utilise, and send copies on to the Leaders and or Ministers of each EU member nation?

    I really do think that the European Leaders have never broken down the component parts that Scotland bring to the party. They have just labelled the whole package as UK Plc

    It may open their eyes to what they might be able to salvage when Johnny Englander staggers off with Boris.

    We could send the BBC a copy, if anyone can knows how to
    corrupt and delete in the language of Propaganda?

  13. Andrew McLean says:


  14. Ken500 says:

    Someone must know about Meths? Property in Glasgow. He claimed to know Eric Joyce (Grahamski) They met up. What happened to him/wife, who kept him in order. It was a total manic laugh until it descended into Unionist (management) hell and disintergrated.

  15. Luigi says:

    If the BBC and the troy press barons are kick-starting Project Fear 3, then we should welcome it. After all:

    Project Fear 1: Took us from 30% to 45% support for independence (it hasn’t gone down since).

    Project Fear 2: Backfired spectacularly, hauling us out of Europe and causing a constitutional crisis.

    Project Fear 3: Well, we start on 50-55% support for independence. Let’s see how that goes now, shall we?

    Bring it on. 🙂

  16. Indigo says:

    Theresa May launching leadership bid wearing black watch tartan suit jacket.
    That’s an interesting wee statement.

  17. Macart says:

    Theresa May: Divisive nationalists in Scotland…

    She’s having a laugh right?

    After what the ongoing tory pissing contest has managed to achieve, we’re the divisive nationalists?

    Just wow! 😮

  18. louis.b.argyll says:

    Call Kaye/BBC..

    Full on character assassination on our First Minister..
    ..’she (Sturgeon) is an embarrassment (visiting EU). ‘

    They must reject a great many callers before they unearth these usually rare expousers of gentile bigotry.

    On average, on BBCScot phone ins,
    … often the views of one in three – equates to three out of four callers and guests.

  19. Dan Huil says:

    May quick to castigate nasty nationalists. May goes on to declare the tories as a one nation party. That “one nation” can only be England.

  20. Macart says:

    Righto then.

    So if Ms May is elected:

    Brexit will happen

    No second referendum on EU

    No snap general election

    Who knew?

  21. Andrew McLean says:

    I am seriously worried about the mental health of the callers to the BBC, call Kay, one says that Nicola is far too young, another is embarrassed that Scotland should dare speak to anyone, us being shite and all, really please could their care workers, and I know they work very hard but, and as much as care in the community is a fantastic idea, keep those poor unfortunate old pish stained men off the airways.

  22. louis.b.argyll says:

    Andrew McLean,
    Dammit, didn’t see your warning. Too laaaaaaaaaate being draaaaged in a gaaaaaaaaiin.

  23. Ken500 says:

    It is not just EU membership but managing Scottish affairs that is so important. Only with Independence. Do not listen to the Labour/Unionist liars, they are still, trying to control Scotland from Westminster and damage the Scottish economy with policies which are not relevant to the Scottish economy.

    They are proven liars who have bankrupted Britain. They Illegally and secretly took Scottish resources for years (McCrone). Years of Trident/illegal and left Scotland in adject poverty, deliberately. They are incompetent ignoramouses who lie. Their lying policies killed vulnerable people at home and abroad. They are a public disgrace, who have no place in governance. They only thing they should do is apologise and clear off. 2nd rate rejects. Same goes for all the Unionist politicians, They are not credible or relevant anymore.

  24. Indigo says:

    Black Watch: “The Black Watch was raised in an unique way. In the wake of the 1715 Jacobite rebellion companies of trustworthy Highlanders were raised from loyal clans…”

    The choice of that tartan can’t have been accidental. From wiki:
    “These were to be “employed in disarming the Highlanders, preventing depredations, bringing criminals to justice, and hindering rebels and attainted persons from inhabiting that part of the kingdom”

  25. galamcennalath says:

    One_Scot says:

    “The Daily Record revelling that Nicola Sturgeon WILL hold a second referendum.”

    Funny how pundits were saying for ages that Nicola doesn’t want IndyRef2. She was trying to avoid it.

    Now, post Brexit, they say that all she does is try to get into a position to call IndyRef2.

    Dreadful reporting from Sarah Smith on the EBC yesterday totally ignored the cross party mandate Nicola has, and pushed the ‘trying to get a referendum’ line.

    Of course Nicola would have IndyRef2 when she has reason and feels we can win. However, we aren’t at that stage yet by any means. Yesterday was informal talks. Article 50 and state of negotiations have to occur first. If the negioations between the UK and EU begin to show that Scotland’s interests and aspirations are being ignored … THEN a referendum is likely, certain even.

  26. Macart says:

    My God, its like listening to a Thatcher clone.

    Beyond scary.

  27. Graf Midgehunter says:

    Re. Rajoy and the word competence.

    Here on the continent the word competence usually has two meanings.

    1. A skill – expertise – know how – an ability.

    2. An area of responsibility – under jurisdiction of.. – under the authority of…

    What Rajoy said was, Scotland is still under the authority of the UK which is the member of the EU clan. So no direct negotiations can take place with Scottish reps.

    Get independence, then we’ll tango paso doble together..! 🙂

  28. Effijy says:

    We, WoS posters, may make bridges with more No, and Never Bothered Voters, if we temper our language a “little”?

    We need to have a welcoming face to everyone who might now decide to hear what we have to say about the Truth that gets buried by Westminster Politicians and the UK Media.

    I’d put my old Mum up as an example.
    If she visited this site, and seen 2 swear words or sexual references, she would bail out and decide our lot are not for her.
    Clearly, polite propaganda is much more palatable!

    Constructive criticism, revelations that don’t appear in the media, proof of corruption, and highlighting questions that need to be answered are where our strengths lie.

  29. Macart says:

    May: ‘The motives of the conservative party will never be in any doubt’

    No, I’ve never had any doubt about conservative motives.

  30. Ken500 says:

    Don’t listen to Kaye Adams. Do not fuel the fire. No listeners, no audience. no programme. Adams is a Labour/Unionist who supports Gordon Brown. That is how she got the job. The Labour/Mafia who control, broadcasting in Scotland. They are still embedded. It works. Smith and Brewer have talk themselves out of a job. Their irrelevant programmes are finished. Renton is in London getting with the agenda. Nearly caught out attempting to gloss over Corbyn set up,

  31. gerry says:

    Macart @ 949

    Are you talking about May or Kay ?

  32. Macart says:


    Theresa May leadership bid speech. Though you could easily be forgiven… 🙂

  33. galamcennalath says:

    Luigi says:

    Project Fear 1: Took us from 30% to 45% support for independence (it hasn’t gone down since).

    Project Fear 2: Backfired spectacularly, hauling us out of Europe and causing a constitutional crisis.

    Project Fear 3: Well, we start on 50-55% support for independence. Let’s see how that goes now, shall we?

    That’s the way I see it. Any arguments used in PF3 are going to be tired and worn out by then.

    Perhaps also there lies a warning to YES2. We should be vary wary of using fear tactics on the now chaotic Union even if true and justified. Positivity has a good record of success. Negativity, as above, hasn’t.

  34. mr thms says:

    More reactions to the SNP’s ‘Remain’ campaign, the First Minister’s trip to Brussels, and a second independence referendum..

  35. call me dave says:

    “Sent home to think again” says newspaper headline and I thought well CMD that’s what you get … but no there’s a picture of Sturgeon underneath.

    Bought The National reading it now and have started to calm as I get into the lotus position.


  36. Ken500 says:

    Smith did reveal the barney between Coburn and McAllister, Extremely revealing. Mr McAllister, (Scottish – German – representative) Scotland voted 62% to stay in the EU. Voters in Dcotland wishes will be listened to and will be heard. Scotland does have friends in high places. Nicola’s visit certainly proved that.

    Westminster can’t start Project Fear Indy2. They need Scotland/NI in the EU.

  37. Robert Graham says:

    whether you like it or not Theresa is on your telly telling us what to do
    well go f/k yerself hen we aint listening

  38. galamcennalath says:

    Macart says:

    “My God, its like listening to a Thatcher clone”

    Indeed. England went for that style of leader once, they will again.

    Hopefully May with prove just as popular in Scotland as Thatcher 🙂

    It could be a dream come true – Thatcher II for IndyRef II.

  39. Macbeda says:

    @ Robert Peffers 8:32
    Re Scottish Pound

    I met an older English couple on holiday pre BREXIT. They were definitely voting leave due to immigration but said their children were all voting remain and they [the children] would win!!. How disappointed are they?

    During various conversations about England, Scotland and Independence, which they initiated, they seemed genuinely interested in the rationale of independence. However, they kept telling me they never understood about keeping the Pound Sterling because “you have the Scottish Pound so why would you need to keep our Pound”.

    I lost the will to live after a while.

    These were two well educated and very friendly people who just didn’t understand that it is our pound too.

  40. Did the Black Watch not help in bayoneting the wounded Scots at Culloden,

    maybe that is the message she is giving.

  41. Ken500 says:

    The Black Watch tartan is an old outfit. The millionaire tax evader is reserving the pennies for Brexit. As soon as Article 500 is implemented there will be a GE and the Tories will not win. They will take the economy back to the 1950’s. A Thatcher clone will not work. Over 3Million unemployed and interest rates at 15%. People will not stand for it.

    They will reap what they sow. She will get telt as well. Just another joke. Another Pantomine.

  42. Robert Graham says:

    i am beginning to believe the Tories really wanted out and their campaign to remain was a cover for bojo once a tory always a tory as Alex Salmond said its what they do they are unable to change b/sds every one

  43. Almannysbunnet says:

    Don’t worry folks. If Therisa May is listening to Ruth Davidson she will continue to be completely out of touch with Scottish politics.

    She proves it with this, “With divisive nationalists in Scotland it’s our duty to do the patriotic thing”.

    If ever there was a lie inside a message wrapped up in a threat this is it!

  44. Fred says:

    The was an old un-revoked French law which gave the Scots citizenship of France. A reporter from the Sunday Post crossed the Channel & tested this many years ago to the great surprise of the French Customs. If this edict is still valid it would solve a lot of the current probems & put Signor Rahoy’s gas in a peep into the bargain. The man’s lookin a bit rough by the way. Whit’s the Spanish fur jakey?

  45. Capella says:

    @ Ruby
    What does England & Wales trade with all these new markets that they are hoping to open up?

    Weapons. BAe Systems etc
    Chemicals. (oil based may become dearer. England currently exports fuel – which may disappear after Independence)
    Cars (may disappear once Toyota and co move to an EU country).

  46. Marcia says:

    Meanwhile over at the UK Tories leadership contest, it has a mix of the mad and sad candidates. Now that Gove has entered the ring (with the fake leaking of an email yesterday) all I can say is, ‘et tu Boris’.

  47. Ken500 says:

    A Tory spokesman told the Press. ‘The last thing the Scots need is another devisive Referendum’
    The Hacks started laughing out loud.

    It will not be decisive. Indyref 2 will be utterly inclusive. Unlike EU Ref1.

    May Thatcher giving the message that the majority of (Scottish) voters are going to be ignored again. That will go not go down well with the voters. Another totally out of touch politician telling them what to do. Dictating instead of listening. MayThatcher is a public servant. Paid, handsomely, to carry out voters wishes. Not to read out pre written speeches, totally ignoring their wishes.

    It will frighten off voters in the North of England and Wales.

  48. Anagach says:

    Graf Midgehunter says:

    Re. Rajoy and the word competence.

    2. An area of responsibility – under jurisdiction of.. – under the authority of…

    That is what I took it as. Scotland has no legal standing to agree any extra deal, in the present arrangement.

    But that just frames the issue into “we can talk but it has to be via Independence” path.

  49. mike cassidy says:

    They smile in your face

    All the time they want to take your place.

    Song of the day

  50. Capella says:

    What products does England export?
    here’s a nice easy answer:
    “While England may import crude oil and other fuels, it is also known to be a major exporter of both crude and refined petroleum. Petroleum exports make up a large percentage of the total amount of revenue that England collects annually.

    But then it adds:
    “Most products exported from England end up in other European countries.”


  51. Tinto Chiel says:

    Nana @ 7.08: “Welcome to Wangland”.

    Phew, that was a close one, Nana!

    Thanks for all your hard work with the links. Look after yourself.

  52. Ruby says:

    Fred says:
    The man’s lookin a bit rough by the way. Whit’s the Spanish fur jakey?

    Ruby replies
    It might be Barracho!

    He get a lot of hits on Google with the search term Rajoy Barrocho!

  53. Effijy says:

    For those in doubt, have a quick look at Westminster Governments past, present and future.

    Westminster has overseen the Murder of over 10,000,000
    innocent, men women and children in the Colonies that they captured in order to steal their lands and their resources.

    For Scotland, they have invaded us, supressed us, they enforced the Highland clearances, driving crofters out of their homes in order to give priority to Sheep over our people. They used our Soldiers as cannon fodder everywhere from Waterloo to WW1.
    After our Rebellion, the English soldiers executed any Scot found speaking their native language, wearing their clan tartan, or playing bagpipes.

    They of course classed the McCrone report as top secret to stop Scots learning that they would become the 2nd or 3rd
    riches nation per capital if they claimed independence and retained the North Sea Oil revenue.

    They again classed as Top Secret, locked away for 100 years, their high profile friends who were connected to the Dunblane massacre Killer, Thomas Hamilton.

    On that topic, I don’t think anyone who has looked at the matter, could deny that Westminster has been covering up for their high profile paedophile members and supporters.
    It is so strange who “investigations” begin decades after the crime and only when the culprit is dead or demented?

    We find ourselves paying for their friends casino banking frauds and allow them to keep their multi-£million salaries, pensions and bonuses.

    Westminster had voted to attack the minimal welfare payments made to the disabled members of our society.
    They wasted £millions paying for ATOS to kill off 5 per week by forcing activities they were never fit for.
    They forced invalids out of 2 bedroom homes in districts familiar to them, and had adaptations to meet their needs.

    We now find that Westminster confirms the use of lies, deceit, and scaremongering is the recipe for winning elections. Carmichael the proven liar, the admitted liar, the man who slandered our elected First Minster and French Diplomats and wasted £1,000,000 on a public enquiry, is found to be innocent by the Westminster Standards committee?

    We know to our eternal costs that everything the “winners”promised in the Scottish and EU Referenda
    where lies from start to finish, but Westminster wants to honour the results.

    The next prime minister is likely to be Boris, the man who
    made it clear that 3,000 HMRC jobs and salaries are better
    in Croyden than being retained in Scotland.

    Your next English Prime Minister has made it clear that he does not give a damn about the Scots or Scotland.

    If every Scottish vote cast in the EU referendum was for Remain, a 100% vote, we would still be dragged out of Europe by England.

    Our opinion and priorities do not matter whatsoever, as long as we are part of their union.

    We must grasp any opportunity, with whatever consequences, to escape the clutches of the most evil government on the planet.

  54. heedtracker says:

    Just threw up my Costa cappuccino as future PM Teresa May ends press conference by kissing Fluffie Mundell. If she gets in we’re fcuked for good but its interesting that she kissed Fluffie, yoonsters talking to yoonsters either side of Hadrian’s Wall, their UK is saved with a tory kiss.

    She should keep in mind how Corbyn did the same with Ian Murray, every PMQ JC had that pud sit next to him front bench and look how hard Murray knifed him.

    Ian Murray for Labour leader, shock. Hey no one expected John Freakin Major taking over from Snatcher Thatcher, although she’d gone barking mad by then.

  55. Hugh Barclay says:

    So England wants the same thing I wanted for Scotland, independence and an EFTA deal, it looks like they will get it but we have Unionist arseholes here in Scotland who denied Scotland this but will be happy for UK to secure the same deal.

    Unionists you really are a class apart, the biggest bunch or brainless fuckwit spineless gutless arseholes this country has ever shat out, a total fucking disgrace to mankind let alone Scotland. Arseholes, take a bow.

  56. Capella says:

    Oops again. Looks like London property bubble may be about to burst?
    Singapore bank suspends lending…

  57. Robert Graham says:

    all the unionist media on overdrive trying to rubbish Nicolas efforts and all voicing an opinion because thats what it is an opinion how do they know what was discussed were they at the closed door meetings or was Alistair Carmichael hanging about in a cupboard , its obvious any EU official cant be seen to be negotiating with a part of a EU member state it is forbidden as is pre negotiations before article 50 is triggered , and the tories go on holiday aye right good move

  58. Dan Huil says:

    Would not be surprised if the bbc puts an anti-SNP spin on the Somme commemorations.

  59. call me dave says:

    “I really felt sorry for David Cameron” says a woman during a bit of an overheard discussion in the cafe.

    “What were the leavers thinking about” “It’ll break the Union and Sturgeon’s already at it”

    “Mibee for the best” suggests a man sitting next to her!

    I wasn’t earwigging honest it was one of those things.


  60. Dr Jim says:

    Apologies Ruby you’re correct I did mix myself up there, just shows how easy it is to do, and I speak the flaming language
    so much more difficult for people who don’t when they have to rely on dictionaries or machine translations or worst of the worst, the media to navigate through the white noise

    I forgot to mention in my ramblings that I’m very poor now because when the financial crash came about my restaurante was boycotted by the English residents in order to maintain the business of what they called English pubs

    My business was attacked and vandalised by young thugs my outside pool tables wrecked my outside stage and lighting wrecked,myself and my wife threatened, our dog poisoned, which incidentally was the final straw for me, the business I could deal with, the racism I could deal with but my dog clinched it, so I sold for less than a quarter of it’s value

    All of these things that happened to my wife and me were nothing to do with Spanish people who were wonderful to us this was pure and simple jealousy and bitterness towards a thriving business run by the wrong Nationality, Scots!

    They love us when we’re benefitting them but they don’t when we’re not as evidenced from all over England by the ongoing unpleasantness to all people who look or sound not like them

    The cringing Scottish Yoons at all cost types have no idea how the world views England, if they did they’d be screaming for Independence, I never in a dozen years in Spain met a Spaniard who likes the English, although to be fair they hate the Americans more

    My Belgian friends feel the same way, my Irish friends both north and south, I had many German Swedish and even Swiss clients and none of them, I mean none have one ounce of respect for the English and the one word they all use is “Arrogance” refusal to attempt to learn any language and refusal to intigrate being their main reasons

    That’s my story, maybe other folk have a different experience but given half my family on my mothers side is English from Wolverhampton I’ve got a direct line and wee insight into the opinions south of the wall

    I’ll do you a family quote “What’s the point of all that education when you’re stupid enough to live in Scotland”

    I, my three brothers and one sister rest our case

  61. Vambomarbeleye says:

    It’s official title is government tartan. We are not talking Scottish government.

  62. Ruby says:

    Tut! typo in earlier post should be you not he.

    YOU get a lot of hits on Google with the search term Rajoy Barrocho!

    This is what he said that made people think he was barrocho!

    “España es una gran nación y los españoles muy españoles y mucho españoles”.

  63. ronnie anderson says:

    May’s absence during the Brexit is becoming clearer She’s the Tories Unifier & no need of a Election they are setting up a Gordy Brown senario PM without a Election, & Labour cant complain. Tories know they would,nt win a election, this is the Fix.

  64. cearc says:

    This is the front page headline in the print edition.

    Lost and found.

    Interesting article. Suggesting, get off your butt, be independent, keep the seat.

  65. Robert J. Sutherland says:

    Fred @ 10:14

    There was an old un-revoked French law which gave the Scots citizenship of France.

    I had heard that one too. I mentioned it to my young daughter one time in passing, so as part of her primary school project she wrote a letter to the president of France (Chirac, it was then) asking if it were true. (Spunky kid!)

    She got a very kindly reply (in English) from one of his assistants in the Elysee Palace that niftly avoided the question (thus avoiding any inadvertent diplomatic incident). Rather like now with our Nicola. Well-disposed but careful about the proprieties.

    Oh, and she also got a signed photo of the Great Man!

    I suspect the existence of the EU and the Maastricht Treaty finally rendered that old law obsolete, though.

    But you could always send your own (friendly and respectful) letter to Hollande urging France’s support for its Auld Ally in its hour of need. (In English if you can’t manage your best Sunday French.) Might be interesting to see what reply you get!

  66. cearc says:

    Michael Crick Verified account

    This is an Oxford Union election: Johnson & Gove (ex-presidents); Morgan (ex-treasurer); May (ex-returning officer; husband an ex-president)

  67. Kenny says:

    Effijy, I think this is the information you were looking for:


    32% of the land area
    61% of the sea area
    90% of the fresh water
    65% of the natural gas production
    96.5% of the crude oil production
    47% of the open cast coal production
    81% of the untapped coal reserves
    62% of the timber production
    46% of the total forest area
    92% of the hydroelectric production
    40% of the wind, wave and solar energy production
    60% of the fish landings
    30% of the beef herd
    20% of the sheep herd
    9% of the dairy herd
    10% of the pig herd
    15% of the cereal holdings
    20% of the potato holdings
    90% of the whisky industry


    25% of the tidal energy
    25% of the wind power
    10% of the wave energy
    Over 60% of EU oil production (largest oil reserve in the EU)
    33% of EU total hydrocarbon production

    Also, there is a video up of a talk given by Michelle Thomson during indyref1 which is very informative on Scotland’s economic power and potential…. such as 11th richest nation (even while in this rotten union which holds us back; UK is 14th), I forget the exact figures, but it goes along something like that and is very good. Just search on YouTube.

  68. Ruby says:

    Dr Jim says:
    30 June, 2016 at 10:39 am

    Apologies Ruby you’re correct I did mix myself up there, just shows how easy it is to do, and I speak the flaming language

    Ruby replies

    No problem!

    I think the Spaniards have got in right re arrogance being to root cause of anti-Englishness.

  69. Robert J. Sutherland says:

    Dr Jim @ 10:39:

    The cringing Scottish Yoons-at-all-cost types have no idea how the world views England

    Or indeed how England (patronisingly) views them!

    Illuminating post, that.

  70. Onwards says:

    We definitely need to steal the slogans that worked. Taking back control and the best of both worlds.
    Seems they both apply to Scotland now as an independent nation state.. a bridge between the EU and UK

  71. Indigo says:

    Thanks Vambomarbeleye, that’s fascinating, I had no idea

  72. carjamtic says:

    Enjoying the scenery ?

    I am,as we travel the Indy road,I am mindful that there have been speed restrictions placed on us by London,they have a competitive advantage,via. the MSM/BBC speed camera’s and they mean to keep it.

    That advantage has slipped,their crew/drivers/mechanics have messed up big time (UKOK, beyond economical repair)slowing down,they are destined for the scrappy.

    In the meantime,other, slower more cautious drivers are catching on,joining us on the Indy road,once only a single lane,recently it changed to a dualer,(still just cruising,keeping the foot off the gas to allow even more to latch on).

    We have pulled alongside though,(even edging in front a little)the Global motorways/autobahns lie ahead,we have the best vehicle,the best drivers,the best engineers,the best support team it is now only a case of when to take the slip road and put the pedal to the metal.

    I trust the support team to issue the instruction at the correct time,as UKOK still vainly attempt to slow us down,put obstacles in our way,block the road.

    Like I say,I am enjoying the scenery,the thick black smoke belching out of UKOK’s exhaust,indicates to us and the watching world,their race is over,soon they will only fading image in our rear view mirror….braw day the day and a fine view.


  73. Tinto Chiel says:

    Dr Jim: sorry to hear about your very bad experience. I would normally explain all this aggression and arrogance as a legacy of racist Empire, but the English have always loved a good invasion, Scotland and France being two early victims.

    “What’s the point of all that education when you’re stupid enough to live in Scotland?”

    Charming. Reminds me of a recent experience on one of the volcanic islands of Sicily. As we got off the boat to the strong smell of sulphur, an English wit remarked, “What a stink! If I’d wanted that I’d have gone to Scotland.”

    To be fair, other English people were embarrassed but most just can’t help themselves where Scotland is concerned.

  74. Kenny says:

    There was an old un-revoked French law which gave the Scots citizenship of France.

    I have also heard about this. I believe it may also have included Norway? Anyway, the treaty between France and Scotland lasted for centuries. It did not lapse after 1707, although was probably defunct, but, if my memory serves me correctly, was formally revoked in 1903??

  75. galamcennalath says:

    Citizenship. It one of the aspects of all this I can’t get my head round. How can WM actually take away my personal EU citizenship?

    I can see how they can take the UK out of the EU, but surely that isn’t quite the same as removing citizenship from millions of people?

  76. Dr Jim says:

    One more observation this morning before I blow my brains out
    If there are still people out there in our country whether FOR or AGAINST Independence who like the idea of having our own Scottish parliament, just remember

    The current candidates for Conservative party leader and new prime minister will dissolve the Scottish parliament faster than an Exocet Missile hitting a boat and our FM knows it

    Why does anybody think they wouldn’t confirm it in the Smith Commission

  77. cearc says:


    It’s a tough question.

    Steel? A little, bitty, Tata problem there and

    Financial Services? They’re all buggering off to get an EU passport, still some of the money laudering bits will remain.

    Well there’s always Good Ole British Bullshit. Could sell lots of that and spend the proceeds on importing fertiliser?

  78. Bill McLean says:

    Scot Finlayson – during the 1745 Rising the Black Watch were stationed in Kent – which nearly cause a mutiny as they had been promised they would be garrisoned in Scotland. There were three Scottish regiments at Culloden (The Royal Scots, The Royal Scots Fusiliers and the Kings Own Scottish Borderers) and the Argyll Militia. The Argyll Militia, reasonably, were mostly Campbells who, to their credit, refused to bayonet the wounded following the battle of Culloden.

  79. heraldnomore says:

    Coming up shortly on Talk Radio – discussion about Scotland’s efforts to remain in EU. This may be before or after a chat with BoJo.

    Ultra right-wing zoomer and arch leave voter Julia Hartley-Brewer fronts the show, and these days even she is preferable that awful wummin on Radio Jockland

  80. Ruby says:

    Cheers Capella You are doing a great job answering my question.

    It’s dated 2012 but I can’t imagine much has changed since then.

    It says 60% of UK exports go to EU.

    ‘As manufacturing has relatively declined, the service sector has become more prominent. The service sector plays a key role in export earnings. Sources of service sector exports includes:

    Financial services – insurance, banking with London the epicentre.
    UK TV shows – e.g. Doctor Who, Top Gear (sold to 170 countries) X Factor, Sherlock Holmes. Export revenues of £1.4bn in 2011 (BBC)
    Video Games like Grand Theft Auto
    Running services such as air traffic control, train systems.’

    It would be interesting to find out what each country buys. I would imagine the US will be the ones buy the TV shows.

  81. Brian McHugh says:

    Michael Gove, the man who said “I’m not equipped to be Prime Minister”… now wants to be Prime Minister.

    Are we watching Spitting Images?

  82. The Isolator says:

    Morning all…

    I do believe I smell the sweet sweet scent of Independence in the air..a strong whiff as well ,breathe it in folks ,just breathe it in.

    Edinburgh Calling at the top of the dial.

  83. Dr Jim says:

    A small caveat to my earlier scribblings:

    I don’t blame the English for the way they think and feel,
    I blame the UK governments approach to how they use their power to control and misinform and the media have always perpetuated it

    The media, I believe, don’t care who wins or who loses, they see their goal as causing as much divisiveness as possible to justify their own existence thereby creating a one media party state

    I fear the plan at the moment is to keep the Labour party front and centre news in the hope Jeremy Corbyn stays, then goes on to lose the next general election where UKIP will take the Labour vote and then we’ll have what Rupert Murdoch the Tories and his ilk want

    A totally extreme right wing one party state which can be manipulated by the media in any direction they choose for the benefit of no one but themselves

    Democracy is what they say it is folks

  84. Chic McGregor says:


    Re the resource to population ratio, a key thing to be highlighted for inyref2 IMO.

    Suspecting the result, here is a post I made on another forum on the eve of the EUref:

    The irony inherent in the polls is that England has much more reason to remain in the EU than Scotland does.

    England has the highest population density in Europe (neglecting tiny Malta which is basically a tourist resort).
    It has one of the highest population densities in the World for any country of size. Those two or three countries which have a higher population density are in extremely fertile areas which produce three or four crops per year.

    To put it in context, China, which has had a single child policy for decades to try to bring down its population size has only a third of the population density of England. England has eleven times the population density of the USA.

    England has to net import half the food and drink its population consumes. Well over £20 billion per year, or more than £1000 per family per year. A massive annual grocery bill every year which dwarfs North Sea oil revenue even in a good year. And, of course, it has to be paid before anything else.

    Other resources too, Energy production (hydrocarbons, renewables), Lumber, Fishing are all insufficient for its population and have to be net imported.

    Of course, this does not matter as long as there is free trade and as long as England has surplus goods and services which it can export. However there are a couple of things wrong with that. First continuing free trade is not a guaranteed thing, especially the way things have gone in recent years. Second, when you look at manufacturing as a percentage of GDP, England is close to the bottom of the league table, not near the top as it should be given its other resource deficits. Furthermore, England is at the very bottom of the equipment investment league table, so its manufacturing production and productivity levels are not about to improve anytime soon. The main thing which keeps England’s GDP up is ‘financial services’ based in London.

    By providing the World’s largest and least regulated casino it is able to skim off what amounts to a large contribution to its GDP. Well, a living is a living, you might say, but the danger with relying on that, is it is the kind of income resource which could literally disappear over night, And it is not as if China and the other BRICs are not already well on the road to mounting such a coup.

    If things do go tits up Globally, the worst thing that could happen in Europe is that it becomes isolationist. Europe produces enough food to feed its population and can manufacture what it needs to maintain a standard of living at least similar to that which we have enjoyed.

    In that big picture context, if I were English I would not only be voting to remain in the EU but probably pushing for the formation of a United States of Europe.

    A possible future scenario, where there is a World trade hiatus and where the EU has been forced to go isolationist would be disastrous for England if it were outside that umbrella. I mean seriously disastrous, we’re talking food riots and famine here.

    However, by contrast, Scotland has an embarrassment of resources to population ratio. Food and drink, Energy, Fishing, Lumber, Fresh water, Living space. We are, in fact, under populated and could easily survive as a stand alone country, if we had to, although that would be highly undesirable for lots of reasons. But of course, an independent Scotland would remain in the EU anyway.

  85. heraldnomore says:

    From Stu’s twitter feed – get your new flags now

  86. Robert Peffers says:

    @Kenny says: 30 June, 2016 at 10:57 am:

    ” … There was an old un-revoked French law which gave the Scots citizenship of France.”

    What you refer to, Kenny is well known as, “The Auld Alliance”. If you Google it you will get more information than the proverbial, “muckle coo could shite”.
    (Pardon my Lallans).

  87. Ruby says:

    UK TV shows – e.g. Doctor Who, Top Gear (sold to 170 countries) X Factor, Sherlock Holmes. Export revenues of £1.4bn in 2011 (BBC)

    All funded by the TV licence payers.

    Ooops I missed the bit that said sold to 170 countries.

  88. clan rossy says:

    hi guys not posted on here for quite a while due to ill health and work commitments . but here goes my work takes me all over scotland and i have been watching and listening very carefully to peoples reactions everywhere i go.

    i firmly believe that the tide is turning our way why well here are just some examples at my work there was a yes , no split in 2014 after gauging reaction since brexit it is now
    apparent that the split is now 90 per cent for independence .

    not being pushy or anything i asked most of them why the sudden change of mind and the main reason was to stay in the eu and they are horrified at the rise of english nationalism and xenophobia going on down south and the lies being spinned by the media in scotland .

    this is the same response that i get when travelling in my work over scotland and i am quietly confident of a strong yes in the next ref when it comes also here is the shocker .

    my mate absolute staunch no voter bumped into him yesterday is now for indie said he was disgusted with what was going on down south and the complete lack of respect for democracy targeted against scotland . and how impressed he has been with nicola sturgeon .

    he said he was sorry for voting no but i said to him he must put that behind him and he was now putting himself on the right side of history and vote for what you believe in and that is scotlands freedom .we shook hands and went our merrily ways.

    so wingers thats my take on things and just passing on what i have experienced since last friday morning

  89. galamcennalath says:

    cearc says:

    “This is the front page headline in the print edition.”

    Thanks for highlighting that. I like the last sentence ( in reference to get Indy ASAP) …

    Et plus elle aura de chance de convaincre les plus réticents des Européens, agacés par les titubations interminables des Britanniques.

    My course translation … And that should convince even the most reluctant of Europeans, who are fed up with the endless staggering of the British.

  90. Bob Mack says:

    I hear this morning that a UKIP member of the House of Lords suggested during a speech in the House that EU nationals in the UK be forcibly held until Brexit negotiations were complete. Yet in Westminster they are talking about preventing abuse and hate speech.

    This is our future. Whilst they falsely deride our party as Nazis they act out and personify the very essence of a Fascist State,

    We must get out

  91. Macart says:

    Oh God! Gove too?

    The choices are looking pretty grim and that’s before Labour’s car crash occurs.

  92. Graf Midgehunter says:

    Maybe it’s about time President Hollande was reminded about the debt that France owed to Scotland’s blood when France was still trying to break free of the English?èreé

  93. Robert J. Sutherland says:

    Brian McHugh @ 11:17,

    Michael Gove also now opines that BoJo is not fit to be Prime Minister!

    Who knew?

  94. Bill McLean says:

    Dr Jim @ 1124. Very generous of you to state that despite your problems “I don’t blame the English for the way they think and feel”. As a youngster and because of my father’s job I attended 2 Royal Navy schools, an Army school and a Joint Services school (all abroad), subsequently worked for a British Government department for 32 years and only returned to Scotland after 40 years. I began to take an interest in Scottish politics and the possibilities for a better country offered by Independence. Self-education revealed that all those years in naval and military schools and working for the government had maintained a form of brain-washing which I only began to shake off in my mid-forties and finally rejected in my late 50s. It was hard work at times to admit to myself that I had been conned all those years by the bullshit pumped into me from age 9. Like you I don’t blame ordinary English people – for me all people are the same – but the political class in England and their media are a disgrace to decency and democracy. Sorry if I’ve gone on a bit but I’m totally fed up of our betters being unable to take the blame for their latest f… up so they turn their spite towards minorities and of course those awful Scots!

  95. galamcennalath says:

    There will be some justice if Brexit effectively brings BoJo’s political career to an end. Well, at least means he will never be destined for high office.

  96. Tartan Tory says:

    All this talk of Boris and May……

    The new UK Prime Minister WILL be female, but she’ll also be a blonde in a true blue suit, rather than a grey in fancy shoes….

    You WILL have seen her likeness before…

    Despite this, IndyRef2 is not going to be a walk in the park, I’m sorry to say. Our biggest single task is going to be dealing with a hard border running between Gretna and Berwick, separating ourselves from our largest trading partner.

  97. cearc says:

    Back live tweeting from the IndyCamp case.

    ‘Meanwhile I’ve been shown another affidavit saying God has made himself known in code through case number of this hearing as it adds up to 7’

    ‘Affidavit: Satan sends “people to get in your way, or by sending women (Nicola Sturgeon) to seduce you and prevent you from doing Gods Will”

    Lord Turnbull deserves an award for wading through this. Perhaps we should crowd-fund for a bulk valium delivery!

  98. galamcennalath says:

    Bill McLean says:

    “the political class in England and their media are a disgrace to decency and democracy”

    Well said.

    Perhaps that can even be said to one of the big drivers for Indy, because they aren’t going to change.

  99. heedtracker says:

    BetterTogether Slovenia branch never ceases to provide a laugh.

    Adam Tomkins MSP ?@ProfTomkins 1h
    Some extremely strong candidates for the Tory leadership but Michael Gove, the great reformer, is the stand out for me.

    FT latest

    “Britain’s politics are going the way of Greece. The economic risks of Brexit were well rehearsed. The political perils were neglected. The out decision defies the majority in parliament. Its legacy is a rudderless Conservative government, a Labour opposition fallen to civil war and a political class at sea about what to do next. This is a nation surrendering its claim to be one of the world’s most stable democracies.”

    Scotland’s the next Greece, my Slovene girlfriend types raged at her scotland region 2014.

  100. gordoz says:

    Top notch posts

    Dr Jim & Bill McLean

    totally concur ! 🙂

  101. Bob Mack says:

    Bo jo withdraws from leadership contest. It will be May as pm

  102. Macart says:

    Boris rules himself out of leadership race.

    Looking more like May by the minute.

  103. Brian McHugh says:

    Bye Bye Boris… the suicide squad strikes again. LOL

  104. schrodingers cat says:

    cearc says:
    30 June, 2016 at 11:24 am
    Flags up!

    this scotland flag with eu stars is a huge mistake

    our yes group stands for independence for scotland. nothing more

    Not for a monarchy or republic
    not for an snp indy or green indy
    not for a currency union indy or euro indy
    not for in or out of the EU indy

    if you want to turn up at our meetings with an eu flag, tories for indy flag, labour for indy flag, feel free, we accept all comers and all opinions

    but we are not an eu booster club

    we are an indy booster club

    huge mistake.

    I like the eu, but disagree with putting it at the centre of our indy campaign. this will alienate at least one third of our activists

  105. Bob Mack says:

    Maybe the Brahan Seer got this one right?

  106. Luigi says:

    Boris bottles it. 🙂

    Gove runs. 🙁

  107. starlaw says:

    Boris not to stand for PM. Trouble ahead and Boris is too sleekit to stand just yet, his time will come.

  108. Effijy says:

    Kenny says:

    30 June, 2016 at 10:53 am

    Effijy, I think this is the information you were looking for:

    Thanks Kenny!

    I wonder if there is also a Scotland’s percentage of EU wide resources?

  109. Robert J. Sutherland says:

    Tartan Tory @ 11:49,

    What problem? England will be open for trading with the whole world, the Brexiteers have proudly proclaimed. (Not the whole world minus Scotland.)

    And there’ll be a “hard border” in Ireland whatever happens. Their choice.

  110. Grouse Beater says:

    Gove? Another Scot as UK PM?

    British establishment won’t allow it.

  111. Brian McHugh says:

    Spot on Starlaw… the Brexit negotiations are a poison chalice for the next PM. Boris will bide his time.

  112. robertknight says:

    ‘Maggie May’ – The only something I think I’ve got to say to her is eff-off!

  113. heedtracker says:

    In the name of god stay JC, just to watch this k___b fromage take it like a red tory.

    Duncan Hothersall ?@dhothersall 2h2 hours ago
    Still loving this. @kezdugdale showing real leadership and shaming those polarising our politics. Bravo Kez. Bravo.

  114. galamcennalath says:

    Perhaps Boris just doesn’t want to go into the history books as the last PM of the UK of Great Britain and Northern Island.

  115. Macart says:

    So basically after helming the singularly most divisive and poisonous campaign in the UKs history, with no strategy for the aftermath, Boris now decides its over to…

    To clean up the mess.

    Seems Boris has discovered he wasn’t quite as popular amongst his peers as he thought and has decided discretion is the better part of valour. How and ever, just who would trust Boris to stand behind them now? His track record for loyalty is a wee bit on the tarnished side at this point. Instead of the crowning achievement and culmination of his ‘cunning plan’, it seems its all turned to ash for the clown prince of London.

    Back in the real world. We are now faced with the prospect of a far more dangerous and societally divisive leader of the conservative party. Choices for Scotland are narrowing down by the day.

  116. cearc says:


    It’s a great piece and there are so many pieces across the european press and financial press today.

    Could do with some sort of website comparing the britpress pieces on Scotland to the rest of the world’s coverage.

    Still I’m sure London politics are more important.

  117. Ruby says:

    Robert J. Sutherland says:
    30 June, 2016 at 12:02 pm

    Tartan Tory @ 11:49,

    What problem? England will be open for trading with the whole world,

    Ruby replies

    Did they say what they were going to be trading?

    Weapons, drugs & TV shows?

  118. K1 says:

    So Johnson is out and May is in…here’s my hahaha ‘prediction’…Crabb the homophobe versus Sarah Vine Gove the whipped versus May the authoritarian anti humanitarian…

    Surely the stars are aligning in our favour…now?

  119. yesindyref2 says:

    David Martin Labour MEP refusing to rule out backing Independence, apparently.

    There’s a poster in my current watering hole I feel a lot of empathy with. Like me he joined a party after the Ref to give support to the side he believed in. Like me (hopefully) he’s reasonably sensible, a bit tribal of course, but believes in what he posts. The only difference really is he believes the Union is best for Scotland, I believe Indy is.

    So in that thread he’s posted this morning that he might think of Indy, and so do others in the Labour party.

    This is a very delicate time. This isn’t just the quiet voting public, this is very active – activists. They’re coming out of their corners, and we want them to stay out of their corners, we don’t want to push them back in “you belong there, get back in your corner you yoon”.

    It’s getting there. Softly softly catchee Indy, as they say apparently.

  120. Kenny says:

    Effijy, I do not have these figures, but the fishing stocks alone would make for very interesting statistics!

    I also had a PDF but no more about our mineral wealth. All the mineral wealth is in the Celtic regions of these islands, not England… We also have a bit of gold (I think Wales has more).

    I too agree that EU stars on Scottish flags is not the best idea. Let’s keep it plain and simple. If Nicola can keep us in the EU, fine. But we need to get all the support onboard. That includes (1) former NO voters (2) former YES voters who voted Leave. Let us not alienate the likes of Solidarity, many in RISE.

    It is all about Scotland. When the time comes, we can decide who we want to join.

  121. mike cassidy says:

    Does this mean Raging Ruthie’s poster boy, Stephen Crabb,is closer to the top job.

    By the way, Mundell talking shite on BBCNews welcoming the dropout of Johnson and backing Thatcherclone.

    He thinks she is capable of uniting the country!

    And, yes, he got an easy question on Scotland so he could do his SNPbad routine.

    Now, if only he had eaten a bit of beard.

  122. Bob Mack says:

    Interestingly it seems the SNP member who was due to appear on Question Time tonight has been informed they are no longer needed. They have been replaced by a comedian.

    Wonder why that is?

  123. Sinky says:

    Scotland invisible in the UK thanks to good old BBC Question Time.

    Panelists to-night:

    Sam Gyimah MP, Labour’s shadow foreign secretary Emily Thornberry MP, Ukip’s Douglas Carswell MP, comedian Russell Kane and the Times columnist Melanie Phillips.

    Outrageous that there is not an SNP rep

  124. heedtracker says:

    Scottish region far right, on the way to the laughing factory, as their glorious hero bottles it. BoJo the bottler

    euan mccolm ?@euanmccolm 26m26 minutes ago
    27 retweets 44 likes
    Reply Retweet 27
    Like 44
    euan mccolm ?@euanmccolm 26m26 minutes ago
    13 retweets 21 likes
    Reply Retweet 13
    Like 21
    euan mccolm ?@euanmccolm 27m27 minutes ago

  125. Kevin Evans says:

    No one on here makes policy’s and we are all only expressing ideas.

    I think it’s a great forum to debate and educate eachother. Stu does the hard work to expose what’s really going on with the nation and the U.K. Then we talk about it and show how we feel and then throw around ideas.

    I trust our Scottish Parliament and our first minister to navigate the best course for us.

    That being said – there’s a guy I know. He’s painting my house at the moment, he voted yes Indy (so he says) votes labour in elections and voted leave and thinks corbyn is the best thing winces sliced bread. We have lots of energetic talks about stuff. To be honest he’s a bit of a zoomer. But he is against independence if it means staying in the EU. I work on him daily. He claims not to be racist and voted leave due to “his” facts. These facts get knock down one by one from me with real facts then he begins his immigration rant to which he shows his racism, but he’s still a Scottish Labour leave voter. I guess what am saying is I get begin to get my head around what people are thinking today in Scotland. Who is yes/leave or no/remain is so blurred lately.

  126. heraldnomore says:

    the flags crowdfunder covers much more than EU saltires – Yes saltires too for those that want them, originals and new ones.

  127. Muscleguy says:

    Interesting article thanks. Though the comments below suggested the responses in an English broadsheet, the Times perhaps. not quite Telegraph level. Hard to tell how many Yoon expats were hiding behind those usernames.

  128. Macnakamura says:

    Theresa May ?
    Theresa Will.

  129. Robert Peffers says:

    @Macbeda says: 30 June, 2016 at 10:07 am:

    ” … These were two well educated and very friendly people who just didn’t understand that it is our pound too.”

    You cannot really blame them, Macbeda, After all we have some people, right here on WoS, who slurp up the Establishments propaganda as, “Rock”, solid truths.

    So we really cannot blame those in England who have also been subjected to the same propaganda all their lives but who haven’t had the benefit of the dissenting early Scottish SNP activists who have, painfully slowly, made converts by telling the truths.

    Seems that, if the Establishment propaganda wallahs state their obvious lies, often enough and loudly enough some people just have to believe it is a, “Rock”, solid fact.

    Even when neither they, the Westminster Establishment nor the Propaganda merchants cannot quote a single item of proof and the real truth is there for anyone, who wants to, to see it. Yet these same people continue to claim to be dyed-in-the-wool Scottish Yessers.

    Now I do not question their commitment to the cause but must question their stubborn drive to assert the Westminster Establishments mantras.

  130. Luigi says:

    Kevin Evans says:

    30 June, 2016 at 12:26 pm

    Who is yes/leave or no/remain is so blurred lately.

    Kevin, IndyRef 2 is going to be a totally different beast to its predecessor. The game has changed completely. There will be some movement both ways (there always is), and we may lose some votes, but the crucial factor will be the net effect on the YES vote, which I think will be positive. Just positive is not enough, we need 55-60% IMO. It may take time, which is why WMs feet dragging on enacting Article 50 is helpful to our cause. The longer they dilly dally, the more time people have to realise the depth of shit the UK is now in.

  131. Chic McGregor says:

    Maybe I should change my name to Cassandra by deed poll.

    Like I said, prayer time.

    That woman is capable of anything.

  132. t42 says:

    The Isolator says:
    “Independence in the air”

    Yet on telly, every liar and his investment bank want scotland to: “wait”.
    “wait a few years to see the EU-UK deal”
    “wait until scotland invents its own currency from scratch…preferably sometime after 2019”
    “wait till the next general election”
    “wait while nicola sturgeon negotiates for years with the EU blancmange”

    Nah. How about wait till the majority of people want indy? That was 5 days ago.

  133. Kevin Evans says:

    Yes luigi and add to that the shit that’s actually going to arise once article 50 does begin

  134. Robert J. Sutherland says:

    Ruby @ 12:14

    Did they say what they were going to be trading?

    I think it’s chiefly going to be money-laundering via the Crown Colonies & British Overseas Territories.

    We and the EU in general are just sidelines in comparison.

  135. Anagach says:

    I do not vote Tory. I disagree with most Tory policies.

    In this leadership I have to say that Ms May is the only one who actually looks like a competent politician. Gove and
    Boris look like squabbling school boys.

    Although I have to admit to knowing little of Stephen Crabb.

  136. DerekM says:

    My god this is getting really stupid.

    Are we watching a desperate tory psrty that have just figured out that no matter what happens the next GE will put Nigel as PM.

    If the tories think for a second that what happened to the labour party in Scotland cant happen to them they are mistaken, referendum after elections can come back to haunt you ask the ex Labour MP`s of Scotland.

    Lets get out of this mess Scotland indyref new currency EU membership if it means borders so be it no looking back the union is dead long live the union.

  137. @Chic McGregor

    sorry for being a pedant,

    but the Chinese no longer have a one child policy,,

    since January 2016 the Chinese citizens can have two children,

  138. schrodingers cat says:

    the flags crowdfunder covers much more than EU saltires – Yes saltires too for those that want them, originals and new ones.

    thanks for the clarification hnm,

  139. Breeks says:

    On the teleprinter again, …MI5 transcript… of a phone tap …on Boris Johnston’s …mothers phone…. message starts… He’s not the Messiah… he’s a very naughty boy… end message.

  140. Robert J. Sutherland says:

    Kevin @ 12:26:

    …then he begins his immigration rant to which he shows his racism, but he’s still a Scottish Labour leave voter.

    Well, something’s got to give there, and Labour have a real problem on their hands with these types. They could all peel off to UKIP, especially in England.

    It’s not new, actually. I used to have a neighbour who was both a faithful Labour voter and a neo-Nazi in belief concerning immigration. He didn’t see the obvious contradiction.

    All you can do with someone like him is tell him that he doesn’t really have much choice, because UKIP are English Nationalists for whom the Scots as as much foreigners as anyone else. You just have to see some of the anti-Scots hate stuff that the kippers post in online forums. See also some of the anti-Scottish prejudice that some posters have related here today.

    If he wants to be able to stand up with dignity and self-respect, he has to support indy. After we have won our freedom, he can then freely support whomsoever he pleases.

    a sovereign nation first!

  141. Nana says:

    Rushing about today but thought you would like to see this

  142. yesindyref2 says:

    Those who don’t want the EU could always make up their own EFTA flag, with the saltire added. That would be inclusive 🙂

  143. yesindyref2 says:

    Mmm, some people were saying 2019 or later for Indy Ref 2, I was saying in the timetable it needs to be end 2017 / start 2018. Looks like we could all turn out to be pessimists. Specially with the start of staunch Unionists coming out to be undecided, could be persuaded, want to know about currency. Well, they don’t need to know about the EU, it seems! Nor the economy, it’s in flux whichever way we go, in or out of the UK.

  144. Breeks says:

    I thought Panzerkommandant Davidson was in the running for Tory Leadership? Whatever happened? Is she the wrong side of the Brexit rupture or did they just meet her before the deal was signed?

  145. galamcennalath says:

    A tweet this morning …

    “Nicola Sturgeon – Verified account ?@NicolaSturgeon

    Scotland’s potential future – out of the EU, with Michael Gove or Theresa May as PM. It fair focusses the mind”

    And no one can accuse Nocila of not being focused. She’s fighting for Scotland with all she’s got. Scotland better not let her down.

  146. Stoker says:

    From the WOS Twitter:
    The Joseph Rowntree Foundation reporting that in 2015 there were 13.5m people in the UK in poverty – same amount as the population of the UK’s 14 largest cities combined.

    Perhaps someone should inform The JRF that there would not be as much poverty if they stopped supplying Liberal liars with endless amounts of financial support and invested the money instead into fighting poverty projects.

    That figure The JRF quotes (13.5m) is, as we know, well over twice the population of Scotland and over 4 times that of Wales.

    Yes, we sure are better together, eh!
    (sarcasm btw)

  147. Chic McGregor says:

    @Scot Finlayson

    Thanks for that Scot, memory bank updated.

    Of course the main point of resource to population ratio still stands.

    If the USA had England’s population density, it would have a population of over three and a half billion, about half the World’s current population.

  148. louis.b.argyll says:

    By the Gods
    The iron is hot!
    What to do .. ..

  149. Petra says:

    @ yesindyref2 says at 1:28 pm …. ”Mmm, some people were saying 2019 or later for Indy Ref 2, I was saying in the timetable it needs to be end 2017 / start 2018. Looks like we could all turn out to be pessimists. Specially with the start of staunch Unionists coming out to be undecided, could be persuaded, want to know about currency. Well, they don’t need to know about the EU, it seems! Nor the economy, it’s in flux whichever way we go, in or out of the UK.”

    Some experts are saying that we have a year to hold and win Indyref2. Additionally we (Standing Council of Experts and us the Truth promoters) better get a move on because the UK wont be the only country to leave the EU making the latter look even more unattractive to No voters. Greece, for one, will probably follow soon and England wont be down and out for ever when it taps into the Asian markets such as China.

  150. Nana says:

    @yesindyref2 I say strike while the iron is hot and while I’ve still got some energy left!

    Re currency

  151. galamcennalath says:

    yesindyref2 says:

    “some people were saying 2019 or later for Indy Ref 2, I was saying in the timetable it needs to be end 2017 / start 2018. Looks like we could all turn out to be pessimists.”

    I think it has to be with the Brexit two years and leave enough time to get the leaving UK details sorted out. We want to be in a position to plant our collective bum on the UK EU seat just as they vacate it.

    We also have to leave time for the UK EU negotiations to make it crystal clear that Scotland’s interests and wishes are being ignored by the UK side,

    Brexit clock starts ticking in Sept, exit Sept 2018 presumably.

    My best guess for IndyRef2 would be May 2017 through to Sept 2017, which leaves a year to uncouple from the UK.

    Of course if it becomes obvious from the outset that the UK isn’t serious about Scotland’s position, it could be even sooner!

    And as an aside, the last thing we want getting it the way would be a general election!

  152. Macart says:


    Good to hear and along with Mr Chisolm and Mr McLeish we need more political consensus of the same source.

    The line to push as I said to you farther up thread is not ‘what country’, but ‘what kind of country’?

    We need to get beyond tribal barriers. Its too important at this point and we’ve already had more than a taste of the Westminster conservative vision in the past month. Too damn scary by half.

    Now of all times, Labour, Liberal, Green, SNP, any and all need to put people, our society before party.

  153. Thepnr says:

    The leadership contest tearing Labour apart will be felt too here in Scotland. Yesterdays Survation poll put Labours constituency vote in Scotland at just 15% down from the 22% they got in the election.

    One third of their support gone in just 2 months and I believe it can only get worse, if UK Labour split might Scottish Labour also split? I don’t think you could rule it out and any split could be along Indy lines.

    Would love to hear McTernans opinion 🙂

  154. Chic McGregor says:

    I hope some of the converts blow the whistle on the shenanigans in indyre1 when they try to repeat them for indyref2

  155. ronnie anderson says:

    Another Angry Voice
    23 hrs ·

    It’s becoming increasingly clear that the anti-democratic coup against Jeremy Corbyn and the Labour Party membership has been stage managed by a dodgy Blairite PR company called Portland Communications. But if you look at any of the supposedly left-liberal mainstream newspapers (the Guardian, the Daily Mirror, the Independent) there isn’t a single mention of Portland in their coverage of the coup on any of their websites.

    The mainstream press know exactly what Portland Communications is. Especially the Guardian. One of Portland’s 3 man advisory council is Jimmy Leach, a former Guardian executive editor.

    The abject failure of the so-called left-liberal press to write a single word about the role of Portland Communications in the coup attempt tells you all you need to know about how much you should trust corporate newspapers to give you the full picture.

  156. Vambomarbeleye says:

    When I see Theresa May striding to the podium to give a speech. I am reminded of the film. the devil wears Prada. Though in her case its government tartan. Brought in for the watch to wear as they patrolled Scotland for England. How appropriate.

  157. Ruby says:

    Re flags this is my translation of part of ‘La Libre’ article.

    ‘Nicola Sturgeon said on June 29, standing in front of a backdrop showing the slogan ‘Scotland in Europe’ with flags that were a combination of the Saltire and the European flag.
    Could it be this idea of being ‘Better Together’ in Europe came about as a result of Scots being bombarded with this slogan by David Cameron during the Scottish Independence referendum in 2014.’

    I think the people in Europe will really like this Saltire/EU flag. It’s quite a powerful symbol.

    I’m not overly keen on the Saltire with the stars or the Saltire with the black YES but hey you know what they say about ‘chacun à son goût’ or is it À chacun son goût.

    I will however donate I can always design my own flag although it would probably be very small and made from paper.

    My Saltire will just have a small set of stars in the corner kinda like my carsticker.

    Oh hang on how many stars are there in the EU flag? I wonder if I should have one black star. ‘una estrella negra’

  158. Stoker says:

    Thepnr wrote:
    “Yesterdays Survation poll put Labours constituency vote in Scotland at just 15% down from the 22% they got in the election.”
    “…if UK Labour split might Scottish Labour also split?”

    Music to my ears but will they have anything left to split?

  159. Ruby says:

    Anyone heard anything from Catherine Stihler? She had plenty to say during the IndyRef!

    I would imagine a lot of NO voters are really hurting at the moment. It might take them some time to get over the hurt before they can decide to vote YES.

    The ‘Love Bomb’ that the English electorate sent them last Friday I expect was a bit of a shock.

    How long do you think it would take a YES voter to become a NO voter if something unexpected happened?

  160. Ruby says:

    I’ve just had another thought re the Saltire/EU flags!

    It might be the perfect flag for NO voter converts.

  161. Robert J. Sutherland says:

    Stoker @ 13:35,

    Can you please get your facts straight? This one is well-known now, so there is no excuse:

    The Joseph Rowntree Foundation is a well-respected charity, and has nothing whatever in common (except the same founder) with the Joseph Rowntree Reform Trust, a private company run by and for the LibDems.

    It doesn’t help the cause of indy to shoot off with half-baked non-information. It brings into disrepute everything we say.

  162. Breeks says:

    I still wouldn’t rule out another Brexit re-run.

    I know, its not on the cards, but Brexit has its tail up, and Remain is still stunned. I was speaking to a shocked Remain Londoner this morning, and that was before Boris stood back. She was vexed that multicultural London was now seen by the world as intolerant, racist and xenophobic, but had no idea what to expect looking forwards. But once businesses start to up sticks, especially financial houses with no banking passport for Europe, overblown house prices begin to tumble, there will be a panic, and sooner or later, assuming the option isn’t stone dead, serious attention paid to re-running Brexit.

    This might sound, and could very well be, pie in the sky stuff, but once the penny drops that Brexit is a disaster, where else but Europe can the rUK turn?

    To escape catastrophe, England needs someone of extraordinary character and backbone to seize the initiative, assume control and order from the chaos, and trigger Article 50 as a show of good faith but immediately ask Europe for time to carry out emergency realignment of remedial policy; put Brexit down to the Nation’s temporary insanity being misguided by rogue elements like Boris and Farage.
    It would be a truly monumental climb down which Europe might not even reciprocate, but rUK will otherwise be facing years of tough bargaining over trade deals and striving to restore a degree of trading integrity, while losing commerce the whole time.

    Labour is a shambles, awaiting the detonation of the Chilcott report, and depending how many former PM’s and MP’s become HMP’s, could remain unelectable for some time. The Tory “Least Worst” Leadership contest might be abandoned if defined as breach in Trades Description, and depending how many of their MP’s are soon to become HMP’s also, it leaves genuine leadership in stark demand but having no discernable point of origin.

    I feel sure the SNP’s substantial barge pole will suffice to keep them out of trouble.

    If I’m wrong, and the chances are good that I am, then rUK will not appeal for a second chance, but soldier on in it’s joyless grey isolationism, looking North, East, South and West towards the thriving EU it turned its back on and walked away from.

    To my eye, England’s prospects look bleak either way, but if I was an Englishman, I would see my immediate task to be undoing as much of the recent madness as can be undone, with Brexit top of the list.

    As for Scotland, nobody picked up on it, but yesterday or the day before, somebody called for a big YES rally to really kick ourselves into gear. Frankly I don’t know. Should that be a YES rally or a UDI one?

  163. Robert J. Sutherland says:

    ronnie anderson,

    I feel for you. I’m not a far-lefty by any means, but it even seems to me that Corbyn was and is being unfairly treated by a Parliamentary Labour Party that has lost its way.

    Which is true whether Corbyn is leader or not, so I’m entirely indifferent.

    If he had been supportive of Scotland’s right to self-governance I would have felt otherwise, but I don’t think we even feature. We’re hearing more from El Gordo again now than we have ever have from him.

    So big yawn, alas.

  164. Nana says:


    I have been thinking the same regarding a re-run. I think there would be dire consequences

    This from the guardian

  165. Brian Doonthetoon says:

    Hi schrodingers cat.

    You typed,
    “this scotland flag with eu stars is a huge mistake”

    Here’s a quote from:-

    A total of 11,000 flags will be split across two designs; the original Yes Saltire, and a new “EU Saltire” (below) design that supports an independent Scotland within the European Union.

    Not all pro-indy folk support EU membership, so we’re offering you the choice of either flag – or both!

  166. @Bill McLean

    as far as I know there was a company of Black Watch at Culloden serving in Butcher Cumberland`s Brutish Army,

    this is a harowing film about Culloden,

  167. Stoker says:

    Robert J. Sutherland wrote:
    “Can you please get your facts straight? This one is well-known now, so there is no excuse”

    I’ll refrain from expletives, for now, and point you to the same response i gave Jim Thomson on the other thread (@2:13pm), long before you piped up.

    BTW: Sorry for the delayed response, i was out delivering Wee Black Books, okey-dokey!

  168. justin FN minty says:

    Who is the mad blonde on the left in blue?
    No no not Angela Eagle the one with the baseball bat

  169. Fred says:

    Don’t think the Black Watch were at Culloden. The Argyle Militia were.

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