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Everywhere and nowhere

Posted on December 13, 2019 by

Last night a bomb went off in British politics. It utterly destroyed the Labour and Liberal Democrat parties, and may have fatally weakened the foundations of the UK itself – Northern Ireland now has a majority of nationalist MPs for the first time in its history, and over 80% of Scottish seats went to the SNP.

As this site had been warning for months and months, the patience of English and Welsh voters with Parliament refusing to implement their 2016 vote to leave the EU finally snapped. Some wildly improbable Labour seats – including the constituency of Grenfell Tower, for God’s sake – went to the Tories, especially in Wales and the north of England, in order to “Get Brexit Done”.

The Lib Dems, the only UK party with a clear (okay, fairly clear) Remain position and with a minimum of 48% of the electorate to target, somehow contrived to LOSE seats, not only compared to their 21-MP starting point (bolstered by defectors since the last election) but compared to the 12 MPs they won in the 2017 election itself.

And the SNP? Well, the SNP failed too.

Because having expressly told voters that the election wasn’t about independence but about stopping Brexit, they won 13 more seats, but seats which have zero leverage at Westminster and will be able to do absolutely nothing to prevent the UK leaving the EU seven weeks from now. For all Scotland’s renewed “STOP BREXIT” message, Brexit will not be stopped. The UK, and Scotland with it, will depart next month.

We can’t help but note at this point that if the party had taken our advice and done a deal with the Tories in October to let Brexit pass in return for Section 30 powers, we’d now have an indyref in the bag (which we’d win) and as a parting gift to our southern kin we’d also have saved England from having a thumping great Tory majority for the foreseeable future.

Hindsight, eh?

And for all the result is outwardly a mandate for another indyref, the Unionist parties have shown no inclination to budge an inch. Richard Leonard last night told TV viewers that it didn’t amount to support for a second vote, and Ruth Davidson was quick to – quite reasonably – highlight the SNP’s own statements that this election WASN’T about independence.

(Interestingly, of their 14 gains the SNP only took one seat from the Lib Dems, who were also campaigning on a Remain platform, and also lost one to them.)

And no matter what moral arguments may be deployed, there is nothing in practical terms that the SNP can do about that. They’ll ask Boris Johnson for a Section 30, he’ll tell them to get stuffed, and the SNP’s choices will be either to go to court (as we’ve said they should have done since 2017, in which case we’d have had the decision by now), or to just meekly sit back down and grumble and try to win another useless Holyrood mandate in 2021.

The SNP recovered about half of the 2015 voters that it lost in 2017, and our view is that many of them held their noses yesterday and gave the party one last chance to take action. If they haven’t done so before the next Scottish election – if they’ve sat on their hands for the whole of 2020 and told their supporters “Just one more mandate and they’ll definitely cave in!” – we strongly suspect people will throw up their hands and walk away and that’ll be the game over for good.

Because make no mistake, barring some sort of miracle, last night the Tories didn’t just win the election, they won the 2024 election too. It’s not clear who’s going to take over the Labour Party from Jeremy Corbyn, but whoever it is will have one hell of a mess to clear up – a party torn in two by divisions so toxic and so ingrained by the factional infighting of the Corbyn era that it seems inconceivable they could be fixed in just half a decade.

And the Lib Dems are a shattered joke, decapitated by the SNP in one of the evening’s small handful of high points (despite the best efforts of the Greens), after a campaign so inept under a leader so arrogantly hopeless that their vote dropped every time she appeared on TV. Britain now belongs to the Tories – Tories at their most ideologically extreme, with almost all their moderates thrown out, a party publicly disowned by many of its best-known senior figures – for at least 10 years to come.

We hate to throw a big damp towel on last night’s widespread jubilation in the Yes movement so early, but the fact is that Scotland is now leaving the EU next month and there’s no plan in place to do anything about it. Any chance of an orderly transition for an independent Scotland before the UK is fully out has been squandered. Whatever happens, the process will now be much more complicated and difficult and therefore offputting to voters should indyref 2 ever actually happen.

The SNP’s strategy was to win over Remain voters and it succeeded in that, but it won a worthless prize – 48 MPs whose votes count for nothing in the face of a Tory majority of 80, and a moral mandate that’s equally toothless and which in any event is badly undermined by the party’s own insistence that it wasn’t won for independence but for stopping Brexit, in which it has been overruled by the voters of England and Wales.

The time for playing nicey-nicey softball by the Marquess of Queensberry rules – if you’ll forgive the mixed sporting metaphor – is over. The SNP needs to get the gloves off and start punching fast, because the final round is approaching.

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287 to “Everywhere and nowhere”

  1. Andrew Morton says:

    I think this is the point where Alex Salmond would be the best leader, the situation suits his guerrilla tactics. Unfortunately, ‘Events. dear boy. events’.

  2. Awizgonny says:

    Yet again I have say the idea that the Tories ever needed to make a deal with SNP to get Brexit done is nonsense. If they’d wanted that deal they would have asked for it.They have now got both of what I said they would – an absolute majority and Brexit how they wanted. – without any deal. They just had to wait.

  3. Rev. Stuart Campbell says:

    Waiting would have done them no good whatsoever if the opposition had refused to vote for an election. They’d have been paralysed for two and a half years with their own supporters getting angrier and angrier and the Brexit Party getting stronger and stronger.

  4. ScottieDog says:

    It seems we have to reach rock bottom before people will finally react.
    This is going to be rock bottom

  5. Jenni says:

    Have to disagree Stu, if the SNP had done a deal with the Tories, we would not have won indyref. SNP would be no better than any of the other parties without a shred of integrity. Indy is a long game and we are steadily, inexorably, albeit slowly, moving forward. Besides, no deal done with Bojo could have been trusted – on last night’s result he’d have broken his word in an instant. It’s now more clear than ever before that electorally we are two very different countries. There is now an unarguable case that Scotland must be allowed self-determination – Westminster might bluster but the world will agree. Keep the faith, it’s coming.

  6. Peter Brunskill says:

    Its tough from down here in England as I had hoped the SNP could keep us all in the EU. In retrospect it would have been better for Theresa May’s deal to go through as we would have been almost through the Transition period by now with a clear idea of what the future holds.

    I’m not sure its possible to argue for England and Scotland to remain close partners as independent nations when Scotland’s parting gift to England was to dump us out of the EU, but it now seems clear that’s what England wants.

    The irony is that until about 5 years ago the EU wasn’t really an issue and certainly wasn’t the reason people chose who to vote fo at a GE. Maybe in future that situation will return and votes will fall back into more traditional lines?That would at least help Labour recover some of its English Red Wall seats.

    My constituency of Keighley has gone blue again, and our local man has been replaced with an Entryist Tory who wants devolution from Bradford! You can’t make it up.

  7. Anagach says:

    “let Brexit pass in return for Section 30 powers” isnt hindsight, its alternative futures. and I doubt that Boris or any of the tories would honor any such deal once they had what they wanted. As you say elsewhere, there is no leverage when they have got what they want.

  8. Harry mcaye says:

    Just my opinion but doing a deal with the Tories and shafting the rest of the UK would have played terribly to the folk we need to switch to Yes. I think the vote would have gone below 45%.

  9. Jules says:

    Like others, I just don’t see that a deal with the Tories was ever a viable option.

    But I agree that it’s now time to stop playing nice. If/when Tories say no to section 30, the gloves have to come off. They can’t keep us prisoner…

  10. baronesssamedi says:

    I agree with Jenni

  11. Awizgonny says:

    The Tories have been paralysed with the Brexit bill for 2 years already and they never offered the SNP any notion of a deal. Because they had no need to. A couple of years more would have been ok with them. And the Brexit party is just the Tory party in disguise.

  12. crisiscult says:

    After hearing several Tories (Brits in Scotland) on media today describing Scotland as either a region or a colony, my anger and interest in guerrilla tactics has increased.

    I was musing on this: if Nigeria, or Ghana, or [insert ex colony name here] had been given 1 MP in Westminster, would they have no longer had a right to self-determination and also ceased to be a colony?

  13. Dave M says:

    I 100% agree. I was torn between voting SNP and spoiling my ballot, but I held my nose and lent them my vote for the second time this year. I will likely not do this again.

    They need to focus on actually campaigning for (not merely talking about) independence. They need Plans B and C (and maybe D), now.

    They need to bin the needless courting of identity politics. They need to stop the New Labour-esque control freakery of the leadership and actually start listening to both their membership and the wider movement. They need a compelling argument for and vision of what independence will look like; and they need to put the ‘7% deficit’ nonsense to bed.

    I won’t, however, hold my breath.

  14. MBC says:

    C’mon Stu, it’s crazy to do a deal with Tories. They are poison.

  15. robertknight says:

    Boris, either voluntarily or forced to by the UKSC, CAN bring legislation to Westminster to enable a S30(2) Order.

    HOWEVER, he can also give his backbenchers a free-vote in the sure-fire knowledge that they’ll vote down any such legislation.

    He can then have called the SNP’s bluff whilst ensuring IndyRef2 doesn’t happen.

    At that point, the SNP policy of Indy only via IndyRef2 is a busted flush.

  16. Bob Costello says:

    Couldn’t agree more and already Nicola is marking time or wasting it, with this letter before Christmas nonsense. If she hasn’t sent a letter with a date for another referendum by Saturday giving an option of a section 30, at the same time kicking off an independence campaign. Then she is at it and should be replaced

  17. Dave Beveridge says:

    It’s past time for the gloves to come off. WAY past time. Will they though? I won’t be holding my breath. Still too many think we’ll get independence sitting round campfires shoogling tambourines and singing kumbaya.

  18. Rev. Stuart Campbell says:

    “if the SNP had done a deal with the Tories, we would not have won indyref.”

    Oh God I’m so sick of this idiotic argument. Which people who want independence would have voted No out of a moral sulk that they’d actually been given a vote on it?

    All the morality is on our side here. We’d have been giving the people of England and Wales their democracy back. We had no right to impose Remain on them when they voted against it, and our attempt to do so pissed them off so much that they’ve now voted overwhelmingly for the Tories and we’ve lost all our bargaining power.

  19. Col.Blimp IV says:

    Now that the Anti-Brexit ship has sailed up the Thames – Can the SNP go back to being a Pro-Independence party, please?

    Nicola’s speech from Tellytubby House would seem to be saying – Yes!

    IT’S TIME! … It has been “TIME” for more than three years … But that is also water under the bridge.

  20. Lesserpawn says:

    At least this result should force the SNP to give up on the notion of stopping Brexit happening in England. I never understood the logic of trying to prevent in England and Wales what the people of England and Wales voted for (especially when that would have made Scottish independence less likely). I hope that the focus returns to independence, and the sooner a formal section 30 request is made, the better.

    All I want is an independent Scotland and my vote will go to whomever I believe is best to deliver that. Yesterday, that was the SNP.

  21. kapelmeister says:

    Johnson would never have done a deal with the SNP in October. Tory Central Office just looked at the 2019 council by-election results in England and they knew they could trounce Corbyn’s Labour.

  22. Rev. Stuart Campbell says:

    “The Tories have been paralysed with the Brexit bill for 2 years already and they never offered the SNP any notion of a deal. Because they had no need to. A couple of years more would have been ok with them”

    Sorry, but this is so catastrophically stupid I can’t let it pass. They were TERRIFIED of it all dragging on, because the Brexit Party would have destroyed them. They HAD to bring things to a head before their own voters lost patience. The EU elections were the warning. When they dumped May for Johnson voters cut them some slack, but it was a short leash and he knew that.

  23. Gordon says:

    “Do a deal with the Tories” Last time a party got in bed with them (remember Better Together) they lost most of the seats in Scotland – yes – Labour. The fact you think that all these ex Labour voters whoe moved to the SNP would then have continued to vote for the SNP after doing a deal with the Tories is just wishful thinking: I can just see the headlines “Tartan Tories Mk2”.

    And when you remember that that one of the Tories staunchest supporters – the DUP, were royally stuffed by the Tories (remember “No border in the Irish Sea”). If that is how they treat their friends , do you think they would honour any deal with their political opponents /

  24. gullaneno4 says:

    I don’t think Johnson would ever had done a deal with the SNP.
    For the same reason the SNP would never had done a deal with him.
    A bridge too far for both parties.

  25. MBC says:

    Agree though that this requires some fresh thinking and strategy. The Section 30 business is playing hostage to fortune. It ain’t going to happen, and even if we were allowed another referendum, we will not win it unless we answer some hard questions and have plans in place. I just feel despair this morning, I can’t see a way forward using the conventional constitutional playbook.

  26. Bob Mack says:

    You are right Stu.
    It was a golden opportunity squandered However, the SNP can no !onger enjoy a free ride from those who want Independence.

    Indy supporters view last nights results as a watershed, regardless of how the SNP hierarchy may view them.

    If the SNP fail in the mandate they have been given then Im sure the patience of those sho want Indy is not inexhaustable.

    Over to you Nicola et al.

  27. Breeks says:

    I agree with Rev’s general perception of reality, but like Jenni says, I don’t believe a Section 30 Agreement, by any consensus, was ever on the table.

    The issue people dance around is not political horse trading or compromise, but the absolute and binary conditions of Constitutional matters, principally Sovereignty.

    Even a democratic majority either by election or referendum will stand or fall on its constitutional merit and potency, and whether the mandate is sovereign.

    The very issue of a Section 30 is a red herring. It is not about striving for political consent, it is at heart a Constitutional question, which seeks to prescribe exactly who needs permission from whom.

  28. Rev. Stuart Campbell says:

    ““Do a deal with the Tories” Last time a party got in bed with them (remember Better Together) they lost most of the seats in Scotland – yes – Labour. The fact you think that all these ex Labour voters whoe moved to the SNP would then have continued to vote for the SNP after doing a deal with the Tories is just wishful thinking: I can just see the headlines “Tartan Tories Mk2”.”

    Jesus Christ, will you TRY to get this through your thick skull? I DON’T GIVE A SHIT IF PEOPLE VOTE FOR THE SNP. I CARE IF THEY VOTE FOR INDEPENDENCE.

    People who want independence would not have shot themselves in the foot by voting to stay in a toxic Tory Brexit UK. They’d have gone “Well, I didn’t want to get it this way but I’ll still take it because the alternative is terrifying”.

    If we’d won independence the SNP would have been forgiven in a heartbeat for the means they secured the referendum by. And if we’d lost we’d have been fucked anyway.

  29. Roland Smith says:

    My view when they went for the election was that 35 had the balance of power in WM and even 59 would be no benefit if the Tories won a majority. Not so sure now hopefully, Tories have morphed into the DUP in Scotland and are the hard core unionists at only 23%. Labour are finished in Scotland unless they change tack on independence. The Lib Dems are almost irrelevant. The UK economy grew 0% in the last quarter and the deficit was 13 billion for October alone, Its increasing and UK deficit now projected at 5%, unemployment is increasing, Johnsons claims on police, nurses etc. will all come out in the wash as bogus. Then we have all the dirty tricks that won the lection to come out in the wash. So as I say not sure today, asking for section 30 and getting told to get stuffed might actually be a good thing. Potentially 77% of the voters last night in Scotland don’t like the new DUP and that’s without a decent turnout as we had in Indyref1. Whether you think the SNP made a loud enough noise about this being a mandate for indyref is irrelevant, the hard core unionist party and their complaint media up here certainly shouted it from the rooftops including our odious PM so I don’t buy that line of thought. Its a clear mandate since the decimated Labour and Lib Dems went down that attack route as well.

  30. Mike Lothian says:

    The Welsh returned a majority of remain / peoples vote MPs

  31. MBC says:

    No deals can be made with Tories without inflicting damage on ourselves. It’s like chemotherapy.

  32. Mist001 says:

    As I posted on the previous thread about 30 minutes ago:

    Well, the SNP don’t have any distractions now. Brexit IS going to happen, so they can’t spend their time banging on about stopping it. Independence is at the top of their list now whether NS likes it or not and she’ll be found out if she dithers.

    The automatic refusal of the article 30 is a given, so the request is only being put in for show. Let’s see what NS and the SNP have really got.

    She was adamant that Indyref2 will be held in 2020, the gates are wide open for her, so let’s go, let’s see what she’s got.

  33. Rev. Stuart Campbell says:

    “I agree with Rev’s general perception of reality, but like Jenni says, I don’t believe a Section 30 Agreement, by any consensus, was ever on the table.”

    Maybe the offer would have been accepted and maybe it wouldn’t. Point is it wasn’t even tried and now we’ve gone from a position of (arguable) considerable leverage to absolutely and unarguably zero leverage.

  34. Capella says:

    @ Andrew Morton – Alex Salmond has already led an independence campaign in 2014. He lost. He made tremendous progress and put Scotland well on the road to independence. But he lost.

    Since the 2014 vote was lost, it would have been stupid to demand another vote in 2015 after the “great SNP landslide”. It is sometimes necessary to bide one’s time until an opportunity arises. If you can engineer that opportunity, so much the better.

    Boris Johnston will never honour any promise to aid Scotland.

    The BREXIT talks will have to grind on for years. Nicola Sturgeon has said we are holding Indyref2 in 2020 – and there is no longer the issue of the second EU referendum causing delay. The EU would likely be very keen to have Scotland as a member as soon as the democratic process has commenced.

    If Boris Johnston wants a trade areement with the EU he will have to accept that terms and conditions apply. As Ireland has so clearly demonstrated, having the EU on your side is quite empowering.

  35. Rev. Stuart Campbell says:

    “Nicola Sturgeon has said we are holding Indyref2 in 2020”

    The £500 bet is still on the table. You in?

  36. Bryan Weir says:

    Soor

  37. Rev. Stuart Campbell says:

    “No deals can be made with Tories without inflicting damage on ourselves. It’s like chemotherapy.”

    Great analogy, actually. Chemotherapy can be grim but it saves lives. Refusing it will definitely kill you.

  38. kapelmeister says:

    I’d just like to point out that Muhammad Ali observed Marquess of Queensbury rules and was still successful.

    Could we perhaps have a less febrile discussion about Nicola’s and the SNP’s options?

  39. MBC says:

    Maybe the fresh thinking has to come from beyond the confines of conventional constitutional rules. I’ve always felt that the time would come when we would have to take some form of action beyond politics. And beyond politicians.

  40. MBC says:

    Well, like chemotherapy, it’s not a win win sadly.

  41. Awizgonny says:

    “Sorry, but this is so catastrophically stupid I can’t let it pass. They were TERRIFIED of it all dragging on, because the Brexit Party would have destroyed them.”

    If they were that terrified, why didn’t they offer the deal then?

  42. Col.Blimp IV says:

    Rev. Stuart Campbell at 12:57

    I agree with you on all counts but I think a great many us would be grateful if you turned the page.

    The “Anti-Tory” first SNP’rs second and Scot’s third mob are fuds and no amount of “I told you so’s” will make them see the light.

    But they are still on the same side as the Scotland First’rs.

  43. Lothian lad says:

    Agree with mich if what you have said Stu but… I really think that doing a deal to get brexit passed for a section 30 order would have been suicidal for the independence cause.

    The media would have utterly savaged us for it and the referendum would have been a shot in the arm for the unionists, especially remainers. They would quite rightly have stated that the SNP was never a party to be trusted because the did deal with the Tories to deliver brexit.
    Backed by the unionist media, we wouldn’t have won the referendum giving that much ammunition away.
    Time will tell, but time and pressure can do remarkable things. The snp will ask for a section 3p, it will be refused. People will see that then only independence can save them from the tories and will demand change, just like the devo journey.

    I thought the lieboue party had seeped all its support to the pro indy cause but with 19% still voting for them, maybe a bit more time will make most of them see sense and change to indy.

    Let’s hope so.

  44. Mungo Armstrong says:

    https://www.mirror.co.uk/news/politics/breaking-nicola-sturgeon-launch-legal-21090602

    There is a plan now it seems!! Finally she goes for the jugular

  45. Boris Corbyn says:

    lets get on with it

    renegotiate the treaty/act of 1706/7 as an equal partner

    There is a tide in the affairs of men, Which taken at the flood, leads on to fortune. Omitted, all the voyage of their life is bound in shallows and in miseries. On such a full sea are we now afloat. And we must take the current when it serves, or lose our ventures.

  46. Yasmin says:

    The sooner Alex returns to the helm the better. Sturgeon has lacked judgement and immerses herself in daft and irrelevant issues.

  47. Big Jock says:

    Sorry Stu , I totally disagree.

    The SNP’s plan was to strengthen their mandate , that they already have. It was not to stop Brexit in England. They used tactics to lever as many seats as possible. They have succeeded!

    Next week is when the gloves come off. When Brexit becomes real. That’s when independence support will be at it’s peak. Everything that has happened in the last 3 years , has been building up to this moment.

    I was cynical at first. A frustrated yes voter. But now I can see exactly where the SNP are going.

    We will have a referendum in 2020.

    You need to stop with the relentless doomsayer stuff. You said the gloves need to come off. They are!

  48. Sunshine says:

    The SNP wont get another mandate in 2021. I predict that last night was their last landslide if no more concrete action, rather than just continuously asking for a section 30, is not forthcoming.
    As the article says, no more nicey-nicey, please. Labour made the mistake of thinking there was no one else to vote for but them!

  49. Capella says:

    I’m not a gambler so, no, not tempted.

    I’ve posted the SNP manifesto commitment a couple of times now. It’s only necessary to start the process to fulfill the EU demand that the democratic process is followed. If the UK govt acts undemocratically to prevent a vote then they are at fault, not the Scottish Government.

    Is Boris a gambler? Obviously. But the EU negotiators are more than capable of raising the stakes.

  50. Cath says:

    Rev said “All the morality is on our side here. We’d have been giving the people of England and Wales their democracy back. We had no right to impose Remain on them when they voted against it, and our attempt to do so pissed them off so much that they’ve now voted overwhelmingly for the Tories and we’ve lost all our bargaining power.”

    Do you honestly think that the electorate in England and Wales voted Tory because they had one eye on the SNP? I really don’t think we figure that much in their thinking. They voted Tory cause they’re pissed off with Labour and still want to give someone a kicking, even if it’s themselves, in the face.

  51. Ottomanboi says:

    The gloves have to come off. It is indeed a bare knuckle contest about Scotland’s very right to exist or its continuance as a third rank, colonial status region in a ‘union’ that has leeched the life out of the country for three centuries.
    The myths of unionism must be attacked head on.
    The promoters of such myths equally so.
    Let the war commence.
    No quarter!

  52. Rev. Stuart Campbell says:

    “The media would have utterly savaged us for it”

    Jesus, WHO GIVES A FUCK WHAT THE MEDIA SAY? They’ve been savaging the SNP for the past 12 years and nobody has given a toss. The SNP are still 20 points ahead after a decade in power, even with their domestic record beginning to crumble.

    And in fact the right-wing media which attacks them the most would have been disarmed, because THE RIGHT-WING MEDIA ACTUALLY WANTS BREXIT. So why would they have been angry? They’d have had to either shut up or go “Er, actually, fair play.”

  53. Rev. Stuart Campbell says:

    “Do you honestly think that the electorate in England and Wales voted Tory because they had one eye on the SNP?”

    No, they voted Tory because they wanted Brexit done.

  54. Derek says:

    Wait. I saw the clip of Richard Thomson saying a vote for him was not a vote for independence, but when did anyone from the SNP say that went for the whole party? Sure, they made ‘Stop Brexit’ their number one priority but “Protect Scotland’s right to decide its own future” is right their as number two on my MP’s campaign leaflets and, I’m sure, on others. There seems to be some tabloid-like exaggeration going on here. I usually come here as an antidote to that kind of behaviour.

  55. AndyP says:

    (Interestingly, the SNP didn’t capture a single seat from the Lib Dems, who were also campaigning on a Remain platform.)

    That’ll be news to Jo Swinson – she’d better un-resign 🙂

  56. Awizgonny says:

    I’m still intrigued as to why the Tories didn’t approach the SNP for a deal.

  57. MBC says:

    It was one thing to do deals with Tories as in the early days of the Scottish Parliament when a non-Tory majority had the whip hand and we were faced by such relatively benign and disempowered Tories as Annabel Goldie or David McLetchie. It is another thing to do deals with the likes of Johnson in an arena where they have overwhelming force. They shafted the DUP (not that I cry over that) and they will shaft us. They even shafted the formidable Andrew Neill over that non-interview.

  58. grafter says:

    Craig Murray shows the way to go……

    https://www.craigmurray.org.uk/

  59. Corrado Mella says:

    People, don’t fret.

    We know that if Brexshit goes ahead – especially on the hard terms BoJo The Clown so craves – the majority support for independence shoots past 55%.

    The BritNazi Establishment can refuse Scotland its right to a referendum, but remember that very few ex colonies booted the invaders out “through a gold standard process”.

    It was the pressure of an extremely angry population that did it.

    Just as Macron capitulated on his plans to rise pension age in France last week, when a general strike ground the whole nation to a halt, the Scots striking en masse means no power, no food and no water in England.

    Those “inconveniences” have a very rapid effect on the mood of the populace.

    Just starve the parasites.

  60. Giving Goose says:

    I’m chuffed to bits.

    This is a great result.

    We will now have a Brexit that will happen, but there is a great danger in what the Tories have set out to achieve.

    They have opened a Pandora’s box of evils.

    Now that the electorate have seen their wish for Brexit to happen they will smell fear with the London establishment.
    What “hate” will they, the English electorate demand next?
    The Tories will not dare to deny them on pain of losing power.

    What’s next on the English electorate wish list?

    Dumbing down on minority rights?
    Prohibit abortion?
    Put homeless people in cattle sheds so that the issue is hidden away from sight?
    Compulsory citizenship tests for all?
    A banning of non-English political parties?

    Just watch all that pan out from Scotland’s vantage point and see the Yes vote start to climb.

  61. Gordon says:

    Jesus Christ, will you TRY to get this through your thick skull? I DON’T GIVE A SHIT IF PEOPLE VOTE FOR THE SNP. I CARE IF THEY VOTE FOR INDEPENDENCE.

    Thanks for your insults Stu. Very reasoned. At this precise moment in time the SNP are the ONLY party than can deliver independence – whether you like it or not. Although I will point out you weren’t exactly supportive of them during the Election: yes the have their flaws, but election time was not the time to raise them if you really cared about independence. Some seats were on a knife edge – I live in one of these seats – and yet again the Tories were a close 2nd. At this present time the percentage of people who support Independence is not overwhelming and doing something outside of normal democratic means would be very messy: just look at how the close 52/48 Brexit vote has truly fucked and divided the UK. I say let Boris do his worse – he’s gonna be the best recruiter for Independence once the realities of Brexit take hold ( and then he shows the other gullibles just how unreliable he is)

    Jesus, WHO GIVES A FUCK WHAT THE MEDIA SAY? They’ve been savaging the SNP for the past 12 years and nobody has given a toss.

    Because its a sad fact of the world a vast majority of people still read (and believe) the shite in it. And those are the ones you need to persuade to vote YES next time. Though I despair – I saw one (supposed) ex Labour voter on TV say they were voting for the Tories and Johnson cos “he liked him and and was quite quirky”. But we live in a democracy and those folk’s votes still count.

    I suggest if you really support independence, come and bloody live up here like the rest of us – instead of sniping from the South of England. Join the SNP, make them do the right thing instead of mouthing off about it. You are great at pointing out everyone else’s hypocrisy – but maybe you should look in a mirror first.

  62. If you go cap in hand and ask them for your freedom they will laugh at you but if you remove the cap and reveal you are holding a gun in your other hand they will listen to you learn from the past no one wants violence but it will be them who cause it,by denying democracy by peaceful means to exist

  63. Donald Barlow says:

    Disagree, Stuart. I’ve no stats or ‘proof’ to back this, but I came to the view some time ago, partly driven by experience talking to friends and colleagues (so not necessarily representative, but I’m prepared to take a punt on it), that the significant majority of Scots are largely ill-informed politically (or let’s say emotionally informed), conservative (small c) and do not do revolutions overnight. They need to see the flames at the door and, until then, are putting their heads in the sand, telling themselves stories the UK is still “okay” and still values them, despite continually going against their views. I am not saying this situation is by the SNP’s design (you have rightly highlighted how the SNP has missed opportunities and painted itself into a corner), but its best hope now is that triumphant Tory arrogance in persistently “slapping down” Sturgeon will start to anger more than just SNP voters and Brexit is indeed an unholy mess. If people still don’t get it then we have to accept 300+ years of conditioning has locked too many Scots into a UK frame of reference/mental model when it comes to politics that will probably never change. People just don’t like change, and indyref2 while Brexit (messy or not) is happening is just not something most voters want to deal with.

  64. HYUFD says:

    In Northern Ireland there is not a majority of Nationalist MPs, only Nationalist and Alliance Party MPs but the Alliance are non sectarian. The DUP still won most seats and lost fewer votes than Sinn Fein, the big winners were the Alliance and SDLP showing Boris was right to get a Deal that avoided a hard border in Ireland

  65. Rob Outram says:

    It may sound like hindsight but I think we’re exactly in the position Nicola anticipated. I think Brexit was inevitable and while the timing was never easy to predict she knew one day we would get here.
    Now us the time and as protracted messy trade negotiations go on, the demand for Independence in Scotland will be deafening.

  66. tommtthecommy says:

    ‘the SNP didn’t capture a single seat from the Lib Dems’?
    What happened to Swinson?

  67. HYUFD says:

    In Scotland the SNP did make gains but still fell just short of 50 seats and failed to match 2015 levels. 54% of Scots also still voted for Unionist parties ie the Tories, Labour, LDs and the Brexit Party and 46% for Nationalist parties ie the SNP and Greens

  68. Martin says:

    Fact check:

    Claim:the SNP didn’t claim a single Lib Dem seat.

    Truth:SNP gained East Dunbartonshire from Lib Dems.

  69. Spikethesee says:

    Sorry to be that pedant guy, but the SNP did win a seat from the Lib Dems; apparently they beat someone called Jo Swinson (not a name I’m familiar with!). Other than that, a pretty accurate and depressing analysis.

  70. Sharny Dubs says:

    Col.Blimp IV @1:10.
    I agree, time to turn the page, water under the bridge and all that.

    Frustrating as it is Stu to hit your head off a wall, we need to look forward for our best options.

    Capella @1:05
    Salmond May have lost in 14’ but we know so much more about how that was achieved now.

    IMO Nicola has been distracted from the prize, maybe time to get some original irons back in the fire?

  71. John H. says:

    The results only came in this morning and already some people are accusing the SNP/Nicola Sturgeon of backsliding. What has happened to this site?

  72. HYUFD says:

    Tommythecommy Correct but as the LDs gained Fife North East from the SNP on a net basis the SNP gained no seats net from the LDs

  73. Stoker says:

    Stuart, is it not about time the next wee book is put into production? Possibly in January once you’ve taken a well-earned break. The earlier we get that million copies into circulation the better. Hopefully you will call it, ironically: ‘The Wee GB’ (The Wee Gold Book). 🙂

    BTW, no idea how far along you are with it. I’m just getting both excited & impatient at the thought of another top-class weapon in our armoury. Been storing away the loose change to purchase my order when the time comes. Can’t wait! 🙂

  74. Graeme Hampton says:

    For progress to indy to be made now I think that the first thing to do is to ask nicely for a section 30 order and when that is refused for the SNP MPs to be a full on bloody awkward squad in every department and committee of the house of commons.

    A block of 47 / 48 MPs could, if properly organised frustrate much of the legislative process.

    Of course the Tories will win their votes but the drip drip of constant interruption, philibustering and procedural queries might frustrate them enough to grant the order.

    I can’t see any other way forward. Any legal action is likely to get Trumped at the supreme court and my favoured option of an advisory referendum doesn’t seem to have much traction.

    In summary meh!

  75. Rev. Stuart Campbell says:

    “Sorry to be that pedant guy, but the SNP did win a seat from the Lib Dems; apparently they beat someone called Jo Swinson”

    THAT’S QUITE CLEARLY WHAT IT SAYS, AND ALWAYS DID.

    *cough*

  76. Rory D says:

    Re kapelmeister @1.07pm “Could we perhaps have a less febrile discussion about Nicola’s and the SNP’s options?”
    That would be good, but I wonder whether it could ever be possible for there to be a forum anywhere on the web for “normal folk” to engage in mature/ respectful discussion of Scotland’s way forward at this critical time, to help inform all of our developing thoughts?
    I accept entirely this is Stu’s place, and he is free to set the content and moderate discussion as he wishes, but it would be nice if there was somewhere that less bolshy / confident folk could venture some thoughts/ opinions without risking being “aggressively” ridiculed. Probably not, given human nature/ tribalism, and other open forums lacking “febrile” moderators would probably have their scathing trolls instead – like the newspaper comments sections 🙁 And the SNP has sadly shown zero inclination whatsoever in promoting genuine dialogue between and with its membership via its website etc.

  77. Rev. Stuart Campbell says:

    “the demand for Independence in Scotland will be deafening.”

    This is a fantasy. The demand for independence will be, at best, a little more than half. Which is enough, but let’s stop pretending there’s going to be a mass popular uprising.

  78. Rev. Stuart Campbell says:

    “Because its a sad fact of the world a vast majority of people still read (and believe) the shite in it.”

    NO THEY BLOODY DON’T, OR THE SNP WOULDN’T STILL BE IN POWER AND 20 POINTS AHEAD IN THE POLLS.

    Jeezo.

  79. Stoker says:

    Giving Goose wrote @ 1:32 pm:

    “What’s next on the English electorate wish list?”

    Attempts to see Holyrood shut down or emasculated even further?

  80. frogesque says:

    HYUFD: 1.44pm.

    The SNP scalped the LibDem leader, (LEADER) Jo Swinson

    The LibDems won the NE Fife seat where the SNP had the narrowest majority last time out (2)

    Lib Dems are a nasty toxic brand and though I would have liked an SNP hold in NE Fife I can live with the fact that Jo Swindon is toast and we will no longer be subjected to her bleatings.

  81. Garrion says:

    The SNP is not independence
    Being socially progressive is not independence.
    Being against Brexit is not (sadly for the SNP) independence.
    Supporting trans rights and being an ally is also not independence.
    Hating the Tories is not independence.
    Being a decent human being is not independence.

    If we want independence we need to understand that that is the ONLY issue, so no lefty pseudo intellectual echo chambers (Bella) no cozy SNP fan clubs (a bunch of folks here), just, fucking independence. We get confused and weakened when we fall for the factionalism. Our adversary knows this and leverages the shit out of it.

    Independence is the absolute agency over the affairs and circumstances and resources of one’s own nation state. That’s fucking it.

    What we do with ourselves WITHIN a state independence is entirely up to us. There will still be arseholes and self serving liars, and greed and mendacity, but they will be OUR liars, greed and mendacity. Hopefully less of, but let’s not kid ourselves.

    There was a moment back around 13/14 when we all woke from the hypnotic fever dream of the charade of British Politics, realised we had been felt by “Scottish Labour” for about 45 years,(for which they will not be forgiven for a generation) and decided that we could escape the matrix and build our own state. We found a voice that wasn’t mediated through the British machine. We nearly pulled it off, they were terrified, but we didn’t make it.

    Then we got lulled into thinking that if we played along with a bigger voice and more visibility in the language and by the rules of a state that will not under any circumstances willingly and honourably “let us go”, that somehow decency would break out and they would graciously just bestow independence upon us when we asked convincingly enough.

    We need to stop confusing feeling good about ourselves that we want independence with actually taking and declaring independence. It will not be “given”.

    It’s not the “British” state’s fault that they wont “give us” an article 30. Why would they? We represent so many key leveregeable resources and, frankly, essential income that they will do whatever they need to, to retain ownership of this country. Left or Right, The British will not let go.

    Sometimes, in my darker moments, I don’t know what will last longer, English exceptionalism or the Scottish capacity for self defeat.

  82. Fireproofjim says:

    John Curtis was just on. I paraphrase what he said. –
    His analysis of the Scottish vote is that Remain voters of all parties have switched to the SNP and are unlikely to leave.
    He also says that Labour may never recover and the SNP seems to be the natural inheritor of their voters.
    So. In my opinion a strong Yes campaign will take us over 50%. That, of course, depends on how and when we get to vote. Soon I hope.

  83. Breeks says:


    Capella says:
    13 December, 2019 at 1:05 pm
    @ Andrew Morton – Alex Salmond has already led an independence campaign in 2014. He lost. He made tremendous progress and put Scotland well on the road to independence. But he lost.

    Since the 2014 vote was lost, it would have been stupid to demand another vote in 2015 after the “great SNP landslide”. It is sometimes necessary to bide one’s time until an opportunity arises. If you can engineer that opportunity, so much the better.

    Yes he lost, but Alex Salmond laid the very foundations upon which we still stand. The 2015 SNP benchmark which we’ve just fallen short of was won on the momentum which Alex Salmond created.

    To my dying day, I rue the day after the 2014 Referendum result, in that “phoney war” period where Scotland had lost, but Westminster had been forced to concede their Vow; the devolution of “more powers”, but for days there was no clarification or agreement what those powers were, just the principle.

    If, if, if, we had only turned our defeat into attack, and exploited the mendacity of the Unionist Vow by holding a snap plebiscite, and asking the people of Scotland, the sovereign people of Scotland, to vote on each and every Governmental portfolio, and confirm whether the “more powers” promise would be fleshed out by the chosen portfolios decreed by public subscription.

    Scotland could have taken control over Broadcasting. Renewables. Constitution… and Westminster would have been on the back foot in total disarray trying to stop us. Had it happened, I don’t believe there would have been a Brexit referendum.

    Instead of Scotland being the mini tail-end of Government, Scotland could have all but self-governing, with merely a token presence of Westminster Government.

    Alex Salmond lost the referendum, it’s true, but when this Nation finally takes it’s rightful place in the family of sovereign Nations, I hope there’s a fine plinth and bronze statue dedicated to Alex Salmond and his essential part in all of this.

    For a fine Scottish Statesman to be facing the accusations he does is outrageous and close to sacrilege. I don’t believe for a nano second they are true, and I choose to believe the smears are orchestrated by the British Establishment who know and fear the potency and political acumen of Alex Salmond.

    Alex Salmond didn’t lose. Too many of us lacked courage and resilience to BritNat propaganda, and we let him down.

  84. Awizgonny says:

    So are we going to find out why the Tories didn’t approach the SNP for a deal in their hour of need when they were “TERRIFIED” of the Brexit party?

    I think we should be told.

  85. @HYUFD,

    Tory got less % of vote share than SNP,

    are you saying Boris The Buffoon has no mandate to govern or are you just being a rather silly little boy.

  86. Giving Goose says:

    Stoker

    That’s my point exactly. Thanks 🙂

    English Nationalism is not of the cuddly variety.
    It’s actually quite nasty in many parts.

    The situation reminds me of 1930s Germany.
    There are so many parallels.
    An embittered population baying for someone to come along and do something.

    Boris recognises this and has been pushing the correct buttons.

    The English electorate doesn’t care about sick kids on hospital floors, doesn’t care about homelessness (unless it’s to keep it from view), couldn’t give a monkey’s arse about employment rights being eroded.

    It’s only interested in righting (incorrectly) preceived wrongs.

    And that’s where the potential danger is.

    Is Scotland’s perceived lack of deference to England a wrong? F***ing right it will be when Boris starts pushing their buttons.

    And that’s the opportunity for Scotland, when we really start getting bullied by London. It won’t be invisible.

  87. Robert J. Sutherland says:

    Oh dearie me. This result was almost certainly what the SNP leadership expected, and all this lingering bollocks about “deals” with the Tories is precisely that. A non-solution to a non-problem.

    The Tories were carefully led into a trap of their own making, thinking that they could simply repeat the same lazy non-strategy as a couple of years back and somehow finally clean up, even though circumstances have now changed dramatically. People are finally waking up to the likely very real and unavoidable consequences of Brexit. The FibDems only managed to survive in some places by the skin of their teeth, and their only win was thanks to a heavy infusion of Tory votes. Labour had nothing to offer Scotland and were duly punished, their only survival also thanks to Tory lent votes. If there were to be another UKGE in Scotland, which there won’t be, it would finish Labour off terminally and likely the FibDems too.

    The SNP showed earnest good faith (yes, that very unfashionable thing, these days) to try to keep the UK as a whole in the EU, partly for selfish and partly for altruistic reasons, and though it was a very predictable bust, it earned the leadership much valuable credit in many places.

    However, from her impressive speech today it’s crystal clear that Nicola has turned a corner over that and given up on saving England. It’s clearly unsaveable. But she evidently also has a plan that will be set in motion imminently, and from the hints offered, the form this will take has been carefully crafted – it’s not merely a “letter” of sweet nothings – to set a constitutional hare running. At a rash guess, one that may be setting out a unilateral Holyrood plan of action that will require BoJo to challenge it in the very courts he despises if he is at all serious in backing up his electoral bluffing. And if he does act, the last tatters of the notion of a voluntary union of equals will flutter away in the wind, and BritNat hopes of prevailing along with it.

    So time to get off the Mogadon and rise above the self-pity. It’s getting time for action, I’m more sure of that now than ever. It will be an interesting ride for those with enough bottle to handle it.

    BoJo – the last PM of the United Kingdom. It’s all glory at the moment, but what an ignominious fate awaits!

  88. Joe says:

    Hats off to WOS again.

    If i was writing this id be tempted to throw some bones of hope in the path of the readers just to stop them foaming at the mouth and give me some peace.

    1 man speaking truth can bring down an Empire.

  89. IndyCrone says:

    I agree with all you’ve said! Yours, a confirmed nose holder!

  90. Gordon says:

    NO THEY BLOODY DON’T, OR THE SNP WOULDN’T STILL BE IN POWER AND 20 POINTS AHEAD IN THE POLLS

    Oh. I’m sorry did I miss something? Did 55% of those that bothered to vote, plus the ~30% that didn’t vote at all, vote for the SNP: no they didn’t ? That’s about 60%+ of all eligible voters that did NOT vote for the SNP or Green. Obviously not just one reason for that, but if you don’t think the lying shite in the media isn’t responsible for a lot for that you truly are living in a fantasy world. Which would surprise me because if you did believe most don’t believe the shite in the media, why do you bother wasting your time trying to debunk it ? My (Scottish) in-laws still read the Scottish Daily Mail and believe it (and didn’t vote for any Indy party)

    Of course we can say almost the same thing about the Tories in the UK overall – hardly an endorsement , but you can be sure the UK media will spin that the Tories do have a mandate, whilst the SNP don’t – even though their vote share in the UK is pretty much the same as teh SNP’s in Scotland (a wee bit less maybe) . And folk will believe it – my father who does live in the South of England does believe it – an avid Daily Mail & Sun reader.. ( though I appreciate that doesn’t say much for my genes….).

  91. robertknight says:

    If I were Boris…

    First thing on the Order Paper for the new session of the UK Parliament…

    “A Bill to make provision, in accordance with paragraph 5A of Part 1 of Schedule 5 to the Scotland Act 1998, for the holding of a referendum in Scotland on a question about the independence of Scotland”.

    In allowing Tory backbenchers a free vote, and with the large majority he has, Boris can be assured such a Bill will not progress beyond its First Reading.

    The SNP’s fox will have been well and truly shot.

  92. Capella says:

    @ Sharny Dubs – I appreciate that you admire Alex Salmond and wish he was still the leader of the SNP. I agree that he is an outstanding politician and a real hero. Sadly, the British state has now snared him in allegations which they hope will tarnish him irretrievably and also tar Nicola with the same brush. In April.

    Timing is everything. I see that Kenny McKaskill, who publishes articles in the press and gives interviews to R Scotland criticising the current leadership, is now an MP and well positioned to take a leadership role. Nothing would suit the unionists more than to depose Nicola Sturgeon.

    But I also see that Nicola Sturgeon, as well as being a highly respected and successful politician, appears to have an uncanny knack of peering into the future and positioning herself well to take advantage of events. Who knew that the UK would vote to exit the EU? Who knew that Boris Johnston would become the PM?

    It appears that Nicola knew and has carefully laid plans to take advantage of this opportunity. A leader with intelligence and prescience who deftly negotiates the traps laid by the UK political class is an asset. She’s lucky. That’s a precious attribute.

    I hope her crystal ball is safely stored in her den.

  93. Think i`ll treat myself tonight to a Lagavulin 16 watered down with the tears of Joe Swindon.

  94. handclapping says:

    Its important that Nicola gets the Section 30 in and the Referendum Bill passed while we are still citizens of Europe. This gives the EU casus belli when we exit at the end of January and Boris needs a trade agreement. He also needs a trade agreement with the USA but Trump needs re-election in November so he, Trump, needs an agreement that Makes America Great Again.

    While Boris is fighting an existential threat to England is the best time to have an Indyref so there will be one in 2020 the 700th anniversary of the Declaration of Arbroath

  95. stonefree says:

    I agree with Rev’s comments,I also await the return of Alex Salmond.
    Queensberry Rules?……Bollox ,When in doubt “just bite,it’s only cheating if you lose”

  96. Col.Blimp IV says:

    grafter says:
    13 December, 2019 at 1:30 pm

    “Craig Murray shows the way to go……”

    His vision of Labour being dragged back to the bygone days of Blair by the MSM and those who pull its strings, will be enthusiastically championed by “Scottish” Labour’s last man standing.

    But … Oops! Blair introduced OMOV, thinking that removing power from the activists and placing it in the hands of sheeple who get their information from the telly would secure a Thousand-year Reich for his Global Capitalist chums in socialist clothing.

    Shame that Corbyn came along and attracted a host of new members who actually believe in the things that Labour allegedly stand for.

    I predict a fight to the death between the self-serving MP’s and the grass-roots … with any luck it will end in a draw.

  97. Broon says:

    Long time lurker, first time poster:

    Doing a deal with the Tories: Brexit for Section 30, would have destroyed the SNP.

    Voters would, rightly, see it as a grubby attempt to force independence.

    “Yes” would lose. The SNP would then be destroyed as Tory enablers. Its happened before…

    Until last night we had to win hearts and minds, to show that Independence is the way forward.

    Now we must rush towards Independence. We must grab up all the disapointed Labour and Lib Dem voters who want to stay in the EU, and show them our plan B.

    Its within our grasp. Not the way we wanted, but its very close now.

  98. Capella says:

    @ Breeks – I agree about Alex Salmond being an outstanding politician and statesman. I also agree that the allegations against him are very likely to be orchestrated by the British state, who are well known to indulge in smear and legal threats. But I don’t KNOW the truth so won’t indulge in any speculation.

    Alex Salmond said himself, I think in an interview, or it might have been an evening talk which I went to, that he knew the campaign had peaked too soon. They got over the 50% line around the 8th September. That activated the unionists to launch their “vow”.

    He obviously had a great understanding of strategy and timing. I’m hoping that Nicola and her advisers are the same.

  99. Breastplate says:

    Brexit is a foregone conclusion. Time to move forward now with independence.

    If a section 30 is officially refused by Westminster, instead of us going to court to get a section 30 sanctioned in the UKSC, why don’t we just dissolve the Union. That would be something worth going to court for.
    In for a penny in for a pound.

  100. jfngw says:

    @HYUFD

    Less than 50% of the electorate voted for ‘Get Brexit Done’, so if the SNP have no mandate then the Tories have even less of a mandate (they don’t even reach 50% if Brexit & UKIP are added to the Tory percentage).

    SNP have 81% of seats in Scotland compared to Tory 57% of UK seats, who has the greater mandate? Even in England they only took 65% of the seats and less than 50% of the vote.

  101. JPJ2 says:

    Just hold up a copy of the “Scottish” Tory manifesto. The front cover says “NO to Indyref2.
    On that manifesto they managed to elect 6 out of 59 MPs compared with 48 for the SNP.

    The Tories campaign priority was therefore utterly opposed by the Scottish electorate.
    Copies of that front page should be waved in the face of anyone who claims the Scots oppose
    Indyref2!

  102. Confused says:

    I have often said, something literally false : all english are tories

    – and what I am getting at is something that drove marx crazy – the english working class, as soon as they are thrown a scrap off the table, become obedient serfs once again – god save the king, there will always be an england

    now this was when the extractive and heavy industry existed – dark, satanic mills – nothing truly clues you in about your identity, where you exist in the pecking order than having to toil in these

    – and today, this sense of self is no more; every fanny with a shit degree, a mortgage on a starter home, a smartphone and a contract plan for an audi a3 – thinks he is middle class

    this is one half of the equation, the youngster; the oldies who remember the scouring of the north by thatcherism voted for brexit as a kind of spiteful revenge against a complacent south who did very well out of it all

    and this is one of the great propaganda feats of our age : the rightwing elite in this country managed to, in the public mind, place the blame for england’s ills : ON THE EU

    – not them, and all they have done for the past 50 years, the choices they made, the things that happened before the EU existed, before the UK joined, and all the things the EU has no power over; nah, it was all the EU, jacque delors, straight bananas all that

    – the insane posts you read make you wince : “THE EU LET IN ALL THE PAKIS” … um

    I think stupid people are – dangerous – like idiot monkeys, you never know when they will chimp out; their mental processes are so strange, you can never take your eye off them; instinctively, one moves away, one has to consider personal safety and sanity.

    – and you hear yet more pish : “we’ll get a FREE TRADE deal with the mericans” – they think this means the industry, the good jobs and the empire back, what it really means is : an AIRBNB with Fred and Rose West

    the FM says she will push for an S30 – well, she has to do that; she will expect it to be rejected, then it is “other options” – which should, in no way, be discussed in public with anyone; you should never do anythng “illegal” until you have been -forced- into it; and when you are taking on a more powerful adversary, you need powerful friends to negate his advantage. I assume she is working on this – the english are fairly well hated everywhere, so it should not be hard.

    I never truly believed we could get away, all nice and legal, orderly, a velvet divorce; the empire never plays fair and it is a spiteful shit when it loses. How often does the battered wife call the taxi and walk out the door in a calm and reasonable manner? Its more likey to be an ugly stramash, with other parties and even the police involved; then a resentful ex parked outside the womens refuge, sending 200 texts a day, threatening and pleading.

    – you can do anything you want in life; the tricky part is – making it stick, then getting away with it.

  103. Abulhaq says:

    The title graphics for the BBC election program last night spoke eloquently of ‘imperial power’.
    London..greatest city on the planet and heart of the democratic and civilized world.
    Pomposity and hubris on high caffeine shots of conceit.
    Pride goeth before.

  104. jfngw says:

    Ruth Davidson legacy – Tories lose 54% of their seats in Scotland. Compare that to Labour who lost 23% of their UK seats. Davidson was a disaster.

  105. Wee Alex says:

    Boris Johnston has won seats in England that can be lost as easily as they have been won. I’m not sure he sees beyond the end of his nose but his advisers will want to keep the Tories in power

    He needs to look at ways to keep a gap between Tories and Labour.Of course this depends on Labour not renewing itself.

    Losing 59 opposition seats in Scotland must be appealing to his advisors.

    We all know they need Scotlands wealth, energy etc. but Johnstons neocons will see this as a price worth paying to retain power for decades to come.

    Just watching business programme on telly, Predicting fishing rights will be a trade off to getting a deal. That will go down well, won’t it?

    Also suggesting no deal the likely outcome if major concessions not made by Westminster and they stick to a 12 month negotiating period.

    In that 12 months period the Tories in Leeds etc will have to deal with people in poverty visiting their surgeries. It will be an eye opener for them. It will be an eye opener for them.

    Then there is a Tory budget in February, does anyone really expect them to pour money into the economy.

    There is sure turmoil ahead, so a referendum in Scotland is not out of the question, especially if the Tories continue with the subsidy junky line. The new Tory voters ain’t going to be happy giving money to the Jocks, while their communities suffer.

    All to play for IMO.

  106. Big Jock says:

    I am truly sick of the negativity. Nicola confounded me and played a blinder in this election. I have enough humility to realise that I am not as smart as she is.

    I was very critical up until the election was announced. I then grew a pair and realised that division in our movement is our weakness. We must unite with our successful leader of our independence party.

    It is our unity that will defeat the British establishment. It is our division that they crave.

  107. manandboy says:

    In my experience, constant criticism is corrosive of relationships, and ultimately destructive of any shared common purpose.

    While I am not without fault in the matter of criticising the SNP leadership, I am now persuaded that Independence is best understood as a standalone value, is above and beyond Party politics, and will best be restored in Scotland by an approach which favours creativity and solidarity, and avoids what is destructive or divisive.

    If this election result signals a decisive phase in the campaign for Independence, then more than ever, it will be a time for the forces of Independence to renew and refine their commitment to the cause, whereby all their available energy is focused on achieving Independence for Scotland, with any personal ambition or goal set completely aside until after Independence is achieved.
    For some this will be impossible of course, but for many others it will be both doable and necessary if we are to be successful and if another Indy-failure is to be avoided.

    Thinking differently about how to achieve independence does seem to have become a priority.

  108. Jack Murphy says:

    From Wings over Scotland Main article above:

    “…Britain now belongs to the Tories – Tories at their most ideologically extreme, with almost all their moderates thrown out,
    a party publicly disowned by many of its best-known senior figures – for at least 10 years to come….”

    England voted for the Toxic Tories, and here in Scotland with the Tory’s Little Christmas Helpers [Scottish Labour and Scottish LibDems] all three got Scotland into this awful mess.

    Scotland will will suffer, suffer and continue to suffer under the jackboot of this Hard Right Uncaring Tory Government posing as a moderate One Nation Tory Party which it most certainly ain’t.

    The outdated,unfit for purpose Treaty of Union MUST be revoked. ASAP!

  109. Balaaargh says:

    A week is a long time in politics. I disagree with some of your conclusions over the last year Stu but to be frank, from the moment May called a snap election two years ago the entire system has been totally FUBARed.

    Sturgeon has been very coy about not mentioning Indy (which you noticed, obvs). She’s not talking about Independence and it’s not plastered everywhere. She’s talking about the right for Scotland to choose. I think that’s a better choice of words to appeal to soft NOs. It’s an empowering phrase to make them think, “hang on, why can’t we have something better than a bunch of asset stripping tory millionaires telling us what to do?”

    But as I said, a week is a long time in politics. Last week I cancelled my SNP membership because quite frankly, I’ve had enough of how the party has behaved in the last four years, including this pseudo-progressive crap coming out of the mouths of people I thought knew better.

    Still thinking about that £500 bet, though.

  110. jfngw says:

    @Capella

    If McKaskill became leader it would be a disaster for the SNP, he has the Jim Murphy charisma gene. You would be comatose before you reached the polling booth.

  111. Frank Gillougley says:

    Dearest Stu,

    I have followed Wings from its inception. You have been just about the only absolutely insightful investigative journalist consistently arguing for the broad movement towards independence over all those years. The Scottish political debate owes yourself and all the wingers a considerable debt (- I remember being at George Square when Scotland United were assembled atop a bus with no where to go).

    Of course I could quibble with one or two points you raise, but that’s irrelevant – your article is in the main here correct. We’re now at the time where the smoke of Brexit has now cleared and as everyone is saying, well, now what?

    I watched the events unfold last night right up til 7am skipping across the channels. (I’ll eventually get to the point) – the difference in language between the unctuous BBC’s Glenn Campbell and STV’s Bernard Ponsonby was stark. From Pravda, we had the same old same tired language employed as in the 2014 referendum, whereas from Bernard, at least he recognised the significance of the Scottish electorates’ vote within a GE context (where yes, it wasn’t about independence, but about their right to determine their own direction of travel) and he conducted his interviews towards the Unionists in a far more seriously questioning manner.

    Of course, this is all just talk and painfully and glacially slow, but shifting the parameters of the discussion this difference in language and ideas, slowly and incrementally does – And that this progressive vote took place, in spite of a 95% wholly hostile media (interesting that yet another political shibboleth has gone – the argument of we have more in common with our working class brothers and sisters in working class English communities etc. That Unionist argument is now in the bin and so it goes, one by one). The plates begin to slowly shift.

    So, in hindsight, regardless of the specific politicking, I do believe that the general SNP strategy of being ‘inclusive’ and ‘appealing’ to other past political tribes has been fruitful and will continue to be so. This, apart from the ideological wokery and downright intellectual idiocy of the whole trans debate (which I have also followed religiously) MUST be put to the side so as not to derail the far, far bigger project.

    So yes, I agree 100%, that the SNP and the YES movement as a whole must NOW up the political ante and no longer subserviently just play to Westminsters’ rules both strategically and tactically. No more meaningless grand eloquent speeches in the HOC, no more being on the back foot answering the medias’ same old questions in the same old way, the YES movement must now set their own wider political agenda by every means within their grasp, as Scotland a desert is not an option.

    In short, I believe that strategically, to seek a politically inclusive consensus is a far stronger argument and practical way forward in achieving the goal of reasserting Scotland as a European nation than any divisive ideological argument. Here, the YES movement as a whole will have a fundamental role.

  112. Dr Jim says:

    When I logged in to have a read today I knew almost word for word what I was about to read and the planning that has gone into it to make it seem plausible and the folk who’ll fall for it

  113. Alasdair Stirling says:

    Who really believes that Nicola and her SNP politicos really want Independence?

    Sure it may possibly be a kinda desirable long term outcome, but it is most certainly not a immediate, short or medium term objective. Nicola and the SNP want a further round of devolution – hence the DevoMax option that she floated a few days ago.

    Nicola will happily use her 48 head mandate to demand an IndyRef and will then agree to BoJo’s offer of further devolution. Nicola gets the devolution that she wants; allows the SNP snorters at Westminster to keep their snouts in the trough; and last but not least kicks BoJo’s Scottish problem into the long grass.

    Job done everyone is happy

  114. Shug says:

    All the tactics in the world dont beat converting people

  115. Mark Robertson says:

    Thank God the people of Scotland arent listening to you anymore Rev !
    Your a devisive self centered Twat ! bag the SNP and the Independence movement at your will mate ,however your money making tree will be coming to an end from true indy supporters !
    Good luck in your future bussiness endevours ! You have lost the plot Mate

  116. Bob Mack says:

    In truth Boris played a blinder. Not only did he garner the votes of no deal Bdexiteers, but also the votes of those who expect him to make a deal. Two for one.

    Nicola now leads the way, but you can be certain that someone will have egg on their face by summer year.

    Either the Rev, or those who try to shut him up because they cannot face facts. We will see.

  117. jfngw says:

    The Rev echoing the BBC narrative, the SNP have failed to stop Brexit. Something that could never be in their power across the UK. They have succeeded in that Scotland has only returned 6 pro Brexit MP’s, that’s 90% of MP’s are actively Remain in Scotland.

    England was determined to have its Brexit, there is nothing Scotland could have done, even if they returned 59 LIbDem’s who wanted to cancel Brexit it would have made no difference to the outcome, except of course the LibDem’s would have just rolled over and accepted England’s decision.

  118. Capella says:

    @ jfngw – I know that KM is a problem. But I am wondering why he has decided to get into Westminster after so long carping from the sidelines. Or am I just too paranoid and suspicous?

  119. Big Jock says:

    Alasdair- Wrong.

    We are not in normal times. Brexit changes everything. More devolution will not keep Scotland in the EU! Scotland outside of the EU, tied to Brexit England, is a cluster fuck.

    The SNP realise that they have a very small window to save Scotland. Nicola’s words are not grandstanding. She has a steely determination to get Scotland out of this

  120. Muscleguy says:

    Exactly Rev, not having gone to law to establish the facts around Section 30 is a missed opportunity a mile wide. Sturgeon could have had that in her pocket to reveal this morning saying ‘we’ll have another independence referendum late next year’ and thumb her nose at Johnson and the Unionists.

    Mind you Johnson saying a flat no will show once and for all to all Scots that he is no democrat. The English are welcome to him. But I’ve pretty much had it with the SNP. The problem is with the Greens if anything even further down the woke rabbit hole than the SNP are who do I vote for?

    Rev, the ball is in your court it seems. Time to put up. 2021 is not that far away, don’t leave it too late.

  121. Sharny Dubs says:

    Capella @2:11.
    I wish I shared your optimism.

    Re Salmond, why are we playing by establishments rules when they have so obviously rigged the game to their advantage?

    Just saying.

  122. Willie says:

    Maybe we shall see the birth of disenfranchised lone wolves who in anger would create a very hostile environment for the colonial masters.

    Colonial governors and their apparachiks need to live the colonies they rule.

  123. Big Jock says:

    I agree with many on here.

    Drop it Stu! We love and respect your insightful knowledge. However we do not like the division you are trying to create.

    Your post was just trashing what has been a brilliant day for the SNP. I am happy and this is the best scenario Scotland could have had. It might be painful but Brexit must happen before we can truly fight to get our country back.

    Indy Ref 2 is only on the cards due to the Brexit vote. It was a bonus we never thought we would get so soon after 2014! We must use this opportunity, not squander it by in fighting.

  124. Albaman says:

    Rev,
    You’re seriously not suggesting that the S.N.P. trust an “agreement” with B. Johnston ?.
    For a start, he, Johnston is not running the government, he’s but a “Front”, its the minders behind him who call the tune, do a deal with Boris Johnston and his advisors?, as one long gone politician once said, ” never,never,NEVER”.

  125. kapelmeister says:

    Trump congratulated Johnson in a tweet and mentioned a future trade deal. It’s that word “lucrative” he used to describe it. When was anything to the advantage of the people described as lucrative?

  126. Alex Montrose says:

    Just after an election victory out comes the Rev with his bucket of cold water, we should have cut a deal with the Toarys, what a lot of pish,ffs.

  127. Josef Ó Luain says:

    And what of Scotland’s Tory voter’s? To suggest that their political reckoning is largely the political reckoning of the rural Scottish Junker classes and has been for generation-upon-generation, may be the only conclusion to draw here.

    Should anyone be surprised by the fact that in England, Remain parties were routed by a clown with a crystal-clear, simple and oft-repeated message who could simultaneously point to Parliaments’ “defiance of the democratic will of the people”? How could the Tory’s go wrong?

  128. Tartan Tory says:

    I’ve never cosidered myself to be the ‘Brahan Seer’, but when it comes to the situation we find ourself in today, I have a half decent history with predictions!

    I’m on record as suggesting (back on 25th Sept 2014) that Boris would march us out of the EU. Just a few short months ago, I posted on Facebook that he’d sweep up at the election as if it were an unkempt shuffle about Hyde Park. Unfortunately, my next prophecy is a bit darker.

    There’s only so much prodding you can do to a rampant lion before it turns-round and bites you…..

    Don’t be surprised if in the coming months there are the beginings of civil unrest in Scotland. I don’t know if any groups (akin to the SNLA) will rear their heads, but something’s afoot. I know two people in my own street who are jubilant today. Sadly, they are both domiciled here with their roots firmly south of the border. I have been neighbourly towards them for years, but my atitude is hardening and I’m not normally the type. There are masses of people who are more hot-headed and unreasonable than I am. I’m the guy who wades in to break things up. I could, however, become a passive observer.

  129. Rev. Stuart Campbell says:

    “The Tories were carefully led into a trap of their own making”

    The trap of having an 80-seat majority and being able to do whatever they like for a decade? Man, they’re going to be FURIOUS when they find out!

  130. Rev. Stuart Campbell says:

    “That’s about 60%+ of all eligible voters that did NOT vote for the SNP or Green.”

    Jesus. I don’t think there’s a multi-party democracy anywhere in the world where the governing party regularly gets 40-45% in the polls.

  131. Graham Fordyce says:

    I heard both Sir John Curtice and the BBC’s David Porter both state that if the cause for independence rises in the polls, then politically it will be difficult for the Tories to resist another referendum, because they could no longer – politically – rely on 2014 being the final say.
    So let’s suppose the Tories do resist either blatantly or otherwise. What is the reaction of the Scots likely to be? ‘Oh well, we tried our best but they’ve got us beat, so let’s go home to think again?’ Seriously? Do you think we’ve come this far and for this long merely to roll over and get back in the box?
    Finally, what is it about political commentators and politicians that they think they occupy this exclusive bubble within which all decisions in a democracy are taken?

  132. Helen Yates says:

    It most definitely is time for the gloves to come off, I think if I hear anyone in the party mention the 2021 election I will scream, surely now if the SNP are serious about Independence they shouldn’t take up their seats in Westminster next week, she should have demanded a section 30 once those results were in, I have to believe that we will have Indyref soon and by that I mean before the second half of 2020. nothing else bears thinking about, so if no Indyref in 2020 then there will be no chance at all. didn’t think I could get anymore despondent than what Iv’e been lately, surely there has to be some hope?

  133. I agree with you Stu., there is nothing wrong with honest critisim it is an attempt to make things better not to cause disharmony and should be seen as such I mean to just accept everything without question is crazy so where does loyalty end and stupidity begin ???

  134. Slackshoe says:

    If my grandma had wheels she’d be a bike. This deal with the Tories was, and is, absolute pie in the sky stuff. Why would the Tories agree to a deal that would clearly harm them and the union? They might be evil but they’re not idiots.

  135. Giesabrek says:

    I know I’m a bit late to the party here and this post probably won’t be read but you never know. Rev, I’ve read all of your articles and rarely, if ever, disagreed with them. When you said back in 2016, was it, that Boris would become PM and a hard Brexit is a very likely scenario, I agreed when others thought you crazy. Even now, when you’re under attack for showing concern about how the only party (to date) that can deliver independence is being taken over by a dangerous wing and adopting alienating policies, I still agree with you when others attack your loyalty to the independence cause.

    But doing a deal with the Tories would never have worked. Firstly, how would you keep them to their word, given their word is utterly worthless?

    Secondly, you claim everyone who would now vote for independence wouldn’t be dissuaded from doing so by a deal with the Tories. For the 45% of solid supporters, you’re almost certainly correct. But for the necessary 10% or so of floating supporters, they could very well be influenced by a rabid press – recall the voters who voted against independence on the basis they didn’t like Alex Salmond or Nicola Sturgeon, or some other non-independence matter?

    And why would a right-wing press, glad to finally have Brexit passed by parliament be so rabidly against the SNP after they allowed Brexit to happen? Because it would allow the UK to hold onto the cash cow that is Scotland. They wouldn’t let it go without a fight, and a dirty one at that, even if they were forced to grant a s30 order. You even agree that the UK gov will now ignore democracy and the right to self-determination and this is because they cannot let Scotland go.

    Even if the press in England were positive towards the SNP, we know the same paper in Scotland would be more than happy to print the opposite for their Scottish audience if it serves their purpose. And with the Daily R*****, the Hootsman, the Herald, the P&J, etc populated by rabid anti-SNP and anti-independence Labour or Tory types, I can’t see them playing fair either. And it wouldn’t take much to scare or shame the 5-10% floating supporters into voting against independence, especially at a time when our largest trading partner is undergoing their own upheaval if Scotland was to leave the UK soon after.

    Like you, I don’t have any faith in the UK gov agreeing to a s30 order, even after being ordered by the UKSC. But given all the possible scenarios, the Tories winning a larger majority and Labour being almost destroyed in England, and the SNP increasing their seats (not to the 55 predicted though), it’s currently the best of a number of very bad scenarios.

    How the SNP proceed from here will be very interesting and I believe they’ve already stated they’ll appeal to the UKSC. But whether they’ll be successful, and if not what they’ll do next, is anyone’s guess. Can the Scottish parliament dissolve the 1707 Act of Union?

  136. Giesabrek says:

    “Tartan Tory says:
    13 December, 2019 at 3:28 pm
    There are masses of people who are more hot-headed and unreasonable than I am. I’m the guy who wades in to break things up. I could, however, become a passive observer.”

    Be careful what you say TT. While I understand your frustration, talking about any kind of violence towards members of the other side of the Brexit and/or independence spectrum is simply wrong and also very damaging to the independence cause and will be seized upon by the MSM as evidence of the “crazy nutters” in the SNP and/or indy supporters.

  137. The entire premises of Stu’s argument and anger for months past is totally flawed.

    Even if the SNP wanted to offer the Tories votes to ‘Get Brexit Done’ in exchange of Section 30 …..

    There is no way the Tories would have agreed

    letting go Scotland is simply not in their DNA

    CAN WE PLEASE GO BACK TO DEBUNKING THE MEDIA AND STOP THIS NONSENSE STU??

  138. Republicofscotland says:

    “they won 13 more seats, but seats which have zero leverage at Westminster ”

    Its not about having clout at Westminster we never will , its about showing there’s an appetite for independence in Scotland and it done the job.

    “We can’t help but note at this point that if the party had taken our advice and done a deal with the Tories in October to let Brexit pass in return for Section 30 powers,”

    And we know this would happened for certain because what?

    Also regarding a deal with the Tories, if the Tories leaked the info out after the Brexit deal, that we’d helped them, its likely the public in Scotland might not forgive them and vote no instead of yes.

    No lets wait and see Sturgeons course of action, and hopefully watch the yes side gain momentum. No one can say say for sure that the serial liar PM will continuously say no.

  139. Margaret Thatcher said in parliament. if Scotland ever got over 50% of its members into Westminster Parliament they could have an INDEPENDENT SCOTLAND. This surely hits once in a LIFETIME VOTE.

  140. Republicofscotland says:

    “Oh God I’m so sick of this idiotic argument. Which people who want independence would have voted No out of a moral sulk that they’d actually been given a vote on it?”

    Not those that want it, but those that need converting to it.

  141. Margaret Thatcher said in parliament. If Scotland ever got over 50% of its members into a Westminster Parliament they could have an INDEPENDENT SCOTLAND. This surely hits once in a LIFETIME VOTE on its head.

  142. Iain Hamilton says:

    @William Purves

    Please point us to an actual credible source for that quote.

    Hansard time and date would suffice.

  143. Abulhaq says:

    From Craig Murray’s blog.
    [With this large Tory majority, there is nothing the SNP MPs can in practice achieve against Westminster. We should now withdraw our MPs from the Westminster Parliament and take all actions to paralyse the union. This is how the Irish achieved Independence. We will never get Independence by asking Boris Johnson nicely. Anyone who claims to believe otherwise is a fool or a charlatan.]
    Sitting smug faced on Westminster opposition benches no longer cuts the mustard.
    Neither does fear of severe political turbulence.

  144. Dr Jim says:

    Johnson will cave just like he did over Northern Ireland
    The EU Nicola Sturgeon and Northern Ireland have done their jobs now the next phase kicks in
    I give it less than a week for Johnson’s fan being unable to cope with the volume of shit coming at it from his own media

    Happy Christmas Prime Minister

  145. Breeks says:

    I’m kinda hoping there’s a wee lull in the acrimony. It’s Christmas. Everybody have a wee break, rekindle that goodwill to all men philosophy, (YES nailed it remember?), and have a moratorium on arguments about Indy, take some quiet time to yourself and start thinking about where we go from here.

    If it’s a referendum we’re going for, how do we address the imminent unconstitutional outrage of Brexit?

    If we want to stop Scotland’s Brexit, or even just hold it in abeyance, what options and methods do we have at our disposal?

    Do we seek a transitional status in Europe pending a second IndyRef?

    How can we buy ourselves time? Or is it better we don’t and cite the act of Brexit as literally the end of the Union, pending a ratification plebiscite?

    If Johnson really does want a No Deal Brexit, there’s nothing in his way now. We must be prepared and ready to move very quickly. Brexit might be upon us before the end of January. If we need Court interdicts, we need them applied for soon.

    Our EU Citizenship is behind the bar in the Last Chance Saloon. We cannot do nothing, and we cannot rely on anybody but ourselves.

    But please, let us work together, and for the love of Scotland, bring in the new Year with all of us singing from the same hymn sheet, even if it’s just for a few weeks or months. Surely we can keep it together that long…

    We need two things I think… sound and decisive leadership, and tangible progress we can use to recharge our batteries. The end of the Union might not be far away now…

  146. Bibbit says:

    There will be a transition period til at least end of 2020, possibly longer.But, crucially after 31st January 2020, when the UK is actually out, the EU will be free to talk about Scots membership, which they have been unable to do up until that date.

    The EU will be free to say that Scotland can join and also say what currency the EU will be happy for an Indy Scotland within the EU.

  147. Brian says:

    I don’t know whether to laugh or cry at England and Wales giving up everything that Labour brought them and EU membership brought them. Bye Bye English and Welsh NHSs’ but the people who use you would rather help rich Tories dodge tax, than stay in the EU with all it’s benefits and all because some tax dodging , rich fucks want to tax dodge. I suppose they decided it wasn’t the 1950s they wanted to go back to but the 1750s.

    If the SNP don’t deliver soon, then we need to look at a new stronger more aggressive party to take us over the line.

    Oh and a note to the SNP. If you want to win back West Edinburgh, you have to actually come round and talk to people.

  148. ahundredthidiot says:

    I’m still waiting for the big white rabbit being pulled out of the hat by the SNP……figure I will give it until next Friday and if it doesn’t appear, memberships are getting cancelled.

    Fuck all this business as usual bullshit. Yes, Yes, happy with result, lament the missed opportunity that Rev Stu points out and still happy to have a tad more faith in NS……but its all wearing a bit thin.

  149. Robbo says:

    Sorry Stu I take a different view. I think Boris may just take a chance at offering another Indy ref. He may reckon there is still a fair % will reject it anyway but just think he cannot risk the Scot Gov getting anymore of those ‘Devolved’powers under ‘Sewell’ that might make a real difference to the Scottish economy which in turn might just persuade the doubters. Given he can manage perfectly well, without Scotland’s Tories I would not put it past him afterall he cares little about Scotland and the SNP will continue to be a thorn in his side.

  150. Bob Mack says:

    Correct me if I am wrong, but Nigel Farage saw an opportunity for power simply because Boris was not forceful enough about leaving the EU. Farage felt a deal was disastrous.

    It was only at this juncture in order to preserve the Conservative Party that Boris began to push the no deal scenario more than we will leave with a deal, thus isolating Farage as the results show

    I believe Boris would have done a deal with the SNP if Farage remained high in the polls, because the English public made it very clear they would support WHOEVER got them out of Europe,albeit Boris or Farage.SNP

    Survival drives many crazy acts.

  151. Ronnie says:

    To the few folk here who have started muttering darkly about things turning violent please stop. That is not a path we ever want to be even vaguely contemplating going down. And it’s exactly what the unionists want, an excuse to use force to extinguish us for good.

  152. Wynn Thorne says:

    This is the biggest load of codswallop you’ve written and boy you’ve written some over the last few months. Time to pack it in. Do a deal with the Tories? Electoral suicide. I would never vote for SNP if they did that. Here’s a suggestion. why don’t you sell up your house in Bath and move up to Scotland so that you can get in touch with the politics of this nation? You should be ashamed of yourself.

  153. pipinghot says:

    Think BlowJob will consider how serious the threat of indi is and if he is ultimately likely to loose the union to it.
    I would expect the offer of bangles and bauble’s to make it look like he is being reasonable. Call it a VOW if you will. It wont amount to jack shit but will con some people. They want to stall for time with the hope of reducing the indi mandate in 2021. All or nothing now.

  154. robertknight says:

    Question for armchair experts on matters constitutional…

    If, as in 2013, the UK Government introduces a Bill, at the request of the Scottish Govt./ Scottish Parliament, to the House of Commons, and MPs subsequently vote against it progressing beyond its First Reading, what then?

    Boris will have complied with Scottish demands to set the ball rolling towards enabling a Section 30 Order, but the HoC will have exercised its constitutional right to stop the Bill progressing any further.

    The Bill in 2013 (“A Bill to make provision, in accordance with paragraph 5A of Part 1 of Schedule 5 to the Scotland Act 1998, for the holding of a referendum in Scotland on a question about the independence of Scotland”.) was supported by the coalition government, but if Boris allows his backbenchers a free vote…

    What then???

  155. AnotherAyrshireScot says:

    You can’t call something hindsight which is based on a fantasy. That Boris would have agreed to any such deal and that subsequently the people would have voted yes are not facts. Even if he had agreed we would probably have spraffed the Brexit card up the wall and been left with nothing.

    If there’s a will, or a potential will, in Scotland for independence, then it will have to be grown organically over time to be deep enough to withstand the struggle to get it done. And if it can be grown it will be done. The will has to be there first.

  156. Bob Mack says:

    @Wynn Thorne,

    You seriously say you would not give any opportunity for Scottish Independence if it meant giving the Tories and the English public what they wanted?

    Stu has a problem.?

  157. Giesabrek says:

    Wynn Thorne says:
    Do a deal with the Tories? Electoral suicide. I would never vote for SNP if they did that.

    And here you go Stu, it’s people like Wynn that are too closed minded (I’m trying to be polite here) to see that England had long ago decided to leave the EU and that Scotland needed to secure the best outcome for itself in whatever way possible. I mean, Wynn even confuses a vote for independence with a vote for the SNP.

    I also still stand by my belief that the Tories would’ve reneged on any deal with the SNP.

  158. kapelmeister says:

    The Scots Tory MPs are now the Six-Pack.

    They’ll ‘carry-out’ all Johnson’s orders.

  159. jfngw says:

    Boris Johnson ‘let the healing begin’. Me ‘fuck off’.

  160. jfngw says:

    We must have a monument to Jo Swinson ‘the fall from grace’, it can sit beside the Thatcher one.

  161. Habib Steele says:

    I think that Nicola Sturgeon has to be replaced by someone who will make independence their priority and be more aggressive about it.

  162. William Habib Steele says:

    I think that Nicola Sturgeon has to be replaced by someone who will make independence their priority and be more aggressive about it.

  163. Wynn Thorne says:

    Hi Bobmack and Giesabrek – read my post – doesn’t say anything that you can take from it what you are projecting on to it. To clarify (to save you going back up) I said if the SNP made a deal with Tories I wouldn’t vote them again. That’s it – nothing else. Lots of people would do the same as they did with Labour and the Lib Dems. However, by your logic (and the Rev’s) I wouldn’t have to vote SNP again anyway since your Tory led referendum would have been held and won – hands down no doubt according to you and indeed perhaps the reverend Stu.

  164. wullie says:

    Anyone know how Mr Peffers is getting on

  165. Mark Russell says:

    Yes, an accurate summary. It’s been strange to hear the claim made today – “we won” – when patently the SNP didn’t, given the stated objectives – Stop Brexit, Stop Boris. I don’t agree with some of the language used by some commentators – doing a “deal” with the Tories implies something squalid – but “reached agreement” has a different connotation.

    I agree wholeheartedly that an approach should have been made after the 2016 referendum about the relevance of the Act of Union – and what might be the best option for both England and Scotland; independence for both. But I guess the cozy blanket of bygone days when the Union was a matriarchal, benevolent institution – like the BBC and the Monarchy – still has attraction for some in Scotland. England (mostly) doesn’t give a toss – aside from the neoliberal metropolitan elite – the Blairites and the media.

    Time to play a new game..

  166. Defo says:

    With record push poor A&E E&W figures being handily released after the fact, it got me to thinking about how BJ is going to solve the Scottish problem.
    We have, & I assume will continue to have a widening gap between us, and them south of the border on issues, mainly devolved issues, such as social care, tuition fees etc.
    The benchmark we set is almost certainly not going to be in line with the ramping up of the (failing) neo-liberal ideology.
    Can we expect mass migrations north?
    In many ways we are already separated.

  167. twathater says:

    Rev I don’t give a flying fuck what the msm would have done if Nicola had proposed a deal for a sect 30 order , as others have pointed out they mangle and manipulate everything SNP anyway

    But it didn’t happen it is water under the bridge it is in the past , as Big Jock ,RJS and many others have said , I also watched Nicola’s speech earlier and I BELIEVE she now has the bit between her teeth , fortunately for us impatient independenistas HER approach appears to have borne fruit , we shall see if the impetus is maintained and capitalised on by rapidly DEMANDING a sect 30 agreement and if and when refused her reaction in the aftermath

    Many people are reacting ( unfavourably and favourably ) to your posts which are critical of the SNP’S and Nicola’s methodology but I firmly believe that feedback is being given to the hierarchy which has to take cognisance of the views and opinions of the most popularly frequented indy blog and it’s commenter

    We all on here have ONE thing in common , INDEPENDENCE for our country and nation , we have differing views and opinions on how to achieve that , but we are not steering the vehicle we have to trust that the driver knows the best and quickest route to reach our destination , so I ask ALL passengers to be a little more patient and trusting in our driver and BELIEVE that she will not divert from our ultimate destination

    The time to worry and fracture ( which the yoonionists would love ) is when the destination becomes further away or diverted , meanwhile feel good about our winnings and don’t lose hope

  168. HandandShrimp says:

    Was such a deal ever realistically on the table though? It would have required less than 35 Tories throwing their toys out of the pram over a deal for a S30. 13 of them would have certainly spat the dummy and I suspect the DUP might have too. The arithmetic of the last parliament was a nightmare.

    I await with interest to see if Johnson shamelessly ditches the weird crew of Francois etc., and ploughs a middle furrow now he has lots of mini mes in place. He also made one hell of a lot of expensive pledges. That should also be fascinating to watch unfold.

    There is no guarantee of a S30 but if we don’t ask we certainly won’t get one.

    The

  169. Garry Henderson says:

    Joanna Cherry saying in the National that she has had some success holding Johnson to account in the courts over British Rules re prorgation, Brexit etc but now it’s time to turn her attention to Independence and Scotland’s place in EU, interesting to see she was with 1st Minister at her speech.

    Think the courts are going to be used and soon (hope so) get us out of this stinking union.

    http://www.thenational.scot/news/18099974.election-joanna-cherry-vows-defend-scottish-democracy-pm/

  170. Defo says:

    BTW Oh to have £500 Buck shee!

  171. Gary45% says:

    How did it come to this?
    So there we have it the party who have killed more of its UK citizens through its own policies than terrorism, walks back into No 10 with a bigger majority??? and the media shy’s away from any blame.
    LBCs finest “Mockocialist” (plastic socialist)James O’Brien this morning giving it the “it was Corbyn to blame for the Labour crash” aye that will be shining bright.
    Since the GE was called, LBC have criticised Mr Corbyn for not going on the channel. What would have been the point? as the questions from every presenter would have been Anti Semitism, Hezbollah, Hamas, IRA, apology after apology and all the rest of the garbage that they have smeared him with. Expect Anti Semitism to disappear from the UK media when Labour choose the “right candidate”.
    The media are 100% guilty for the mess the country is now in.
    Our new super improved Fuc*wit of a PM is cosying up to Trump ( who only this week said more Anti Semitic tropes than anyone on the world stage.)
    Will we see the unbiased UK media going after Johnson on his links to this Anti Semitic clown or is it just Anti Semitism when it suits them? The SNP had to stand a candidate down for less. Who’s next in the sights of the Establishment?
    Its time for the SNP to grow a pair, and any criticism of MPs like before, do it the Tory way and do not wash the dirty linen in public, remember Michele Thomson and how they wrecked her career?
    The SNP now known as “Mr Bunny” formerly “Mr Softy” or do they have the bollocks? time will tell.
    An Increasingly Restless Native.

  172. Dan says:

    HYUFD says: at 1:39 pm

    In Scotland the SNP did make gains but still fell just short of 50 seats and failed to match 2015 levels. 54% of Scots also still voted for Unionist parties ie the Tories, Labour, LDs and the Brexit Party and 46% for Nationalist parties ie the SNP and Greens

    Seeing as you are such a stickler for details, please consider that the UK Government that you would prefer to rule over Scotland denies the vote to 16 & 17 year olds and EU Nationals.
    So either incorporate those stats into your figures or agree that folk in those demographics should be exempted from paying any taxation to the UK as they don’t have any representation in that Parliament.

  173. winifred mccartney says:

    The snp could never have done a deal with the tories- brexit for s30 -and even if they had do you really think they would have honoured it. At least one party still has principles. Indy is coming it is now an unstoppable force and once people see BJ in action they will be clamouring for it. His arrogance, stupidity and perfidy has been hidden from view it will become obvious very shortly. I feel so sorry for England especially the poor, weak and disabled because everything from working conditions to human rights will be dismantled along with the nhs when the tories get started and watch out Scotland they play very dirty and despite what they say they need our money and resources.

  174. Vestas says:

    Let’s see what the Sturgeon/Murrel “Plan A” is and how they react when its (inevitably) shot down in flames by LBJ.

    Like many of you I suspect there’s no “Plan B” which is viable. The “Supreme Court” is going to be eviscerated, if not by LBJ then certainly by Cummings in the next months.

    Then what? The law is malleable when faced with the “crown”.

    Not a good night for anyone other than racists/little Englanders 🙁

  175. Robert Louis says:

    I disagree with some of this article. Whilst their may have been some in the SNP who said it wasn’t about independence, I can assure you that it was, It was clearly stated several time by Nicola Sturgeon herself, and indeed my local SNP candiate had it in her flyer.

    However, NOW is the time for the SNP to step up to the game properly, and stop pussy-footing around. They need to be bold and, most importantly, FAST. This is not time, to wait. This needs prompt action, and a demand for a section 30 needs a time limit, of say 24 hours.

    They must keep the intiative, and not let their opponents re-assemble (which they will). The SNP right now have the media spotlight, but in a few days that will be gone.

    This is it. They have the clear tripe or quadruple mandate, they know brexit is NOW going t happen, and Boris has a majority. No more thinking or waiting needed.

    So, Over to you, NS. I assume you have planned for this eventuality, and will not act fast, and simply refuse to take no for an answer, and as others above have suggested disrupt Westminster at each and every opportunity. This is no time for playing by ‘the made-up rules’ set by London.

    Get to it, or you will be severa;ly punished come the next Scottish elections. No shirking or nicey, nicey nonsense required. Tell Boris you are holding a referendum, then tell him you expect a section 30.

  176. Robert Louis says:

    That should have been an expectation for NS TO act fast on indyref, in comment above, obviously. The people have spoken, get on with it.

  177. Colin Alexander says:

    Congratulations to the SNP. Now for independence.

    1. S30 request with 28 days given. No answer, no, or not now means…

    2. SNP MPs withdrawn from British Empire parliament. Forget legal action.

    3. Scot Govt has vote of no confidence in itself, forces Scottish election.

    4. One policy only at Scottish election: Independence.

    5. Majority of indy parliamentarians elected on single mandate of indy.

    6. Vote at Holyrood to declare Union dissolved. If won, independence declared.

  178. Col says:

    I think bono will weigh up the value of the precious union and not get Brexit done.

  179. Col says:

    Robert Louis 5.46, agree. State the date, too, but I’d say after 2021. Then if he knocks it back, we rubberstamp it an job done.

  180. mogabee says:

    I guess many of us are in a ‘wait and see’ mode. Not much else can be done and no doubt the FM is aware of this article and the worries of the party faithful.

    Whether a deal could have been done with the Tory party is now in the past and realistically we know it wouldn’t have been a possibility, despite being discussed widely previously on here!

    I would have gone along with it but hey, I’m desperate for independence unlike some of the skittery. 😀

    But, patience is running out. That IS a fact…

  181. Lothian lad says:

    You miss the point about the media salvaging us rev. The point is we would have dealt with the tories to deliver brexit. That I itself would have filled the media with an ammunition we could not counter no matter what the logic.
    This would have lost us the referendum. Read the context not pick out the quotes.
    And doing a deal with the tories Is SUICIDAL.

  182. One_Scot says:

    To be honest, I have waited 40 years for Scotland to become Independent. I think I can give it another week. 🙂

  183. shug says:

    It must be hard for Jackson Carlaw and the others constantly having to take the line that Westminster will refuse permission when they know that eventually they will concede !!

    I can see the EU taking the line allow a referendum in N Ireland and Scotland or no deal.

    Given it the Treaty of Union is a treaty and the Scottish Parliament and a substantial majority of the Westminster MPs now want to end the treaty, how should we enforce the end of the treaty

  184. Bob Mack says:

    How can you break free from a country when you yourself give them legitamacy and then play by their rules and their laws?

    I can think of no other place this has happened. There must in evitably be confrontation even if that is only defiance and non co operation.

    England needs Scotlands GDP for borrowing . They aint gonna let that go without a fight. Especially with the implications of Brexit to the UK finances.

    It is no longer about letting the men and women of what you consider part of your country choose to be separate. It is now about the very survival of England if they do make that choice.

  185. shug says:

    @bob Mack
    interesting but they have been told for years, and believe, that we are a negative contributor to the budget. They do not believe we are an asset in their eyes and there will be a strong part of the English parliament

  186. Capella says:

    @ Bob Mack 6.36

    Sweden and Norway or Sweden–Norway (Swedish: Svensk-norska unionen; Norwegian: Den svensk-norske union), officially the United Kingdoms of Sweden and Norway, or as the United Kingdoms, was a personal union of the separate kingdoms of Sweden and Norway under a common monarch and common foreign policy that lasted from 1814 until its peaceful dissolution in 1905.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Union_between_Sweden_and_Norway

  187. Mist001 says:

    “Boris Johnson has moved quickly as the SNP attempts to secure a second Scottish independence referendum, calling the party’s leader Nicola Sturgeon to tell her to forget it. A Downing Street spokesperson has said:”

    https://www.theguardian.com/politics/live/2019/dec/12/general-election-2019-uk-live-labour-tories-corbyn-boris-johnson-results-exit-poll

  188. Jockmcx says:

    Stop brexit…side of bus (get it)?…yet?

  189. McDuff says:

    In effect this is an Englishman and an superior English population telling another country what it can and cannot do.
    I agree with many on this site that the gloves have to come off and the SG needs to talk and act tough and produce this strategy that some say NS has up her sleeve though I`ll believe it when I see it.

  190. Famous15 says:

    Just thought of a good slogan.

    “GET INDEPENDENCE DONE”

  191. AlanH says:

    (Long time reader, first time poster)

    Sod the idea of an indyref, Westminster will just laugh it away. By all means ask the permission from our so called equal partners, but when they knock it back we straight away need to recall our 48 MPs and declare UDI. They wont play nice so why should we?

  192. North chiel says:

    “ Famous 15@ 0706 pm “. I’ll second that .

  193. Famous15 says:

    Listening to Sally Magnussen on the BBC you can feel her grief.I hate when grown ups cry.

    To all those who say how divisive and violent political intercourse has become I was minded of a wee ditty we sang in my Glasgow school playground oh way back when.

    “Vote!Vote!Vote! For Mr Attlee

    Whose that knocking on the door?

    If it’s Churchill or his wife,

    Take your pistol and your knife

    And we will never hear from them anymore”

  194. laukat says:

    Looks like the FM’s plan is to ask, protest and then go to court. However If the Scottish Government wins the case the UK Government will appeal and change the law in between.

    So its difficult to see a route to independence through Scottish politics alone. I think our best hope will be Irish unification as a result of Brexit creates a domino effect across the UK.

    Whilst we wait on something happening Bojo will need money to fund his brexit, hospitals and flights of fancy in England. Scotland is the softest target as he has nothing to lose. So I would expect he will start moving to ditch the Barnet formula as soon as the Scottish Government legal bid fails.

    That will lead to public services in Scotland getting cut back or collapsing which in turn will give Bojo an excuse to take the powers back under UK Government control and close Holyrood.

    With the attitude of some folk in this country it wouldn’t surprise me if he did all that and the Scottish press presented him as Scotland’s saviour.

    Bojo has anihilated the Labour party so he can spend the next 5 to 10 years trying to close down the SNP.

    The next decade is going to hurt. The 80’s under Thatcher may well pale into insignificance to the 20’s under Bojo.

  195. Unionist Media BDSM Club says:

    Count me among those who don’t think it’s impossible Johnson would grant the S30. Highly unlikely so soon after an election in which he promised not to grant one, but not impossible in the medium term.

    Like Trump, Johnson is a sociopathic nihilist who views everything in life as transactional. What he personally is getting out of it, whatever it is — that’s all that matters to him. Abstract principles such as ‘precious Union’ or ‘fatherhood’ mean nothing.

    The late 2019 English nationalist Tory party controlled by Dominic Cumming has the same tendencies. What the Tory party is getting out of it, whatever it is, followed distantly by what (white) England’s getting out of it, are all that matter. The abstract notion of the Union means less and less to them. Throw in their increasingly fascist leanings and the prospect of permanent Tory rule once Scotland secedes might be highly attractive to them. They might also just want to get us out of their hair at last. The same might well be true of the newspapers that back them.

    The English left’s wishes for the Union to continue so that Scotland can save them from the Tories — these are as irrelevant as Jo Swinson’s interior design plans for Number 10. We’re meant to feel sorry for them while their country keeps inflicting Tory govts on us? Imagine Canada being told to keep suffering a Trump regime they didn’t vote for, so as not to let down a US that re-elected the guy. Insanity, plain and simple. Let’s drop this one in the bin forever.

    So as things now stand, as opposed to 2014, what is holding the Union together?

    1. Not the Orange Order & chums. They’re unshiftable to Yes under any circumstances, but a dying breed. Irrelevant to the wider picture.

    2. The Unionism of Queen Liz, the British nationalist elite’s desire to please her and secure honours, and the monarchism of Scottish pensioners. Yeah, all this still matters, as long as her reign endures and the female-hygiene-fantasist is kept off the throne.

    3. Going way out on a limb with this one, but I sometimes suspect that North Sea oil and gas might be a factor in London’s repeated refusals of Scottish democracy.

    So if today’s a day for airing wacky thought experiments, try this one. What % of oil and gas revenues would be a price worth bribing Johnson and the Tories with to escape their racist economic wasteland?

    Say the predictions are correct and Scotland loses 6.7% of GDP due to Johnson’s Brexit. At 2018’s figures that’s roughly £12 billion pa (6.7% of £180 billion annual GDP). UK revenue from oil and gas the same year was £25 billion. So we could offer England 50% of oil and gas revenue, escape the Union, rejoin the EU and be roughly where we’d be economically anyway post-Brexit, except now we’re free to become a sane non-fascist social democracy. (Or we could offer them 30% and see what happens).

    Unfair to have to sacrifice that revenue? Sure.

    But compared to what’s coming anyway?

    Well done again to the SNP and all who campaigned for that fantastic result.

  196. Dr Jim says:

    Bryan Taylor on behalf of the BBC says there’ll be no court case because the law is clear on that and it’s a no go

    Well I could write it all down but there are probably 30 people on this site who could put Bryan Taylor just as straight as me, in short he’s an Arse

    There won’t be any need for it though because it’s happening and Johnson will cave because he has to, he can’t risk imposing dictatorship or England is rubber ducked

    I do enjoy Sally Magnusson’s torn face though

  197. Joe says:

    @ Bob Mack

    Behind every negotiation is the threat of consequences if the negotiation should fail. Otherwise its just begging for something and praying the other party is feeling kind.

    Getting to the truth of international politics now.

  198. Joe says:

    jfngw says:
    13 December, 2019 at 2:57 pm
    The Rev echoing the BBC narrative, the SNP have failed to stop Brexit. Something that could never be in their power across the UK. They have succeeded in that Scotland has only returned 6 pro Brexit MP’s, that’s 90% of MP’s are actively Remain in Scotland.

    England was determined to have its Brexit, there is nothing Scotland could have done, even if they returned 59 LIbDem’s who wanted to cancel Brexit it would have made no difference to the outcome, except of course the LibDem’s would have just rolled over and accepted England’s decision.

    So, forgive my stupidity, why the fuck did they write it over the side of a big yellow bus and claim it as the priority objective?

  199. jfngw says:

    @Joe

    I’ll let you work that out for yourself, it’s about numbers if you need a clue.

  200. James Barr Gardner says:

    You’ve got to ask yourself one question. Do I feel lucky? Well, do ya, Bawlis?

  201. Boudicca says:

    Wull, Mr Peffers posted a comment a day or two ago on Indycars YouTube videos, he has had his eye surgery and is waiting for it to heal, still can’t see properly yet. Still his old self though! 🙂

  202. jfngw says:

    @Dr Jim

    Tayllor has probably consulted the BBC lawyer, but this is someone who works for the government and obviously not good enough to be a lawyer in the real world.

    Did he also shout ‘you need permission’ like his colleague. These journalists seem so in rapture to another country that they feel Scotland needs permission from them, I can only think off air the say ‘yes masta’ when talking to London.

  203. Brian says:

    Rev I had a thought.

    Do you think the threat of Ruth Davidson swimming in the scud in Loch Ness helped keep the SNP votes under the 50 seats she said she’d get buck naked if they reached?

    Sorry for the mental image….

  204. John Jones says:

    As I forecast weeks ago a tory landslide.
    suits me fine, as the screw turns and we squeal under Bojo, perhaps we’ll get enough people changing to all out civil disabedience to force some sort of movement.
    Just wait until the spring when the crops are rotting in the fields(no one to harvest them) and the prices of food from Europe shoot up. We won’t be immune as our soft fruit will be doing the same.
    It always seems to take disasters to get some folk to waken up. pity we’ve got to suffer with them.

  205. Boudicca says:

    No way should the snp do a deal with the Tories.
    My namesake did a deal with the Romans, look how that ended.
    The DUP did a deal with the Tories, look how that ended.
    Even previous Tory bigwigs advice against trusting him. He throws old faithfuls like Ken Clarke under the bus.
    Scotland voted to remain in the EU, Nicola had to honour that and do her damndest to try and make that happen. In the past three years there have been curveballs that changed the timing and the plans. She said she would wait til the fog of Brexit cleared. Well it finally has. Now we all know where we stand. De Piffle has told her her tonight no section 30.
    She has done her best to stop us exiting the EU. I think from today’s speech that the gloves are off, there will be no more nicey nicey. I think the chess pieces are now in play, the strategy is game played, and I really hope our Queen is moving to checkmate that black hearted king in no.10, aided by the knights and bishops of the snp.

    And BTW, cheers and many thanks to all the footsoldiers who slogged in this awful weather, and all the behind the scenes leaflet folders and dogsbodies who made the bullets for the troops to fire. Cheers to you!

  206. Joe says:

    @ jfngw

    Its good for Scotland in general that people did vote for the SNP. If everybody did what I did then Westminster would be hailing it as a triumph for the Union and that Scottish independence is dead.

    However…

    The SNP did themselves no favors and have done for years now. If its numbers you are talking about then there is not much they have done lately that would galvanize people behind them with enthusiasm and all you need to do is look at the numbers ‘holding there nose’ while voting for them to see how unpopular they are becoming.

    But the crux of it for me, in terms of politicking, is this:

    By making ‘stopping brexit’ the main issue of the campaign then thats there mandate as far as Westminster is concerned. The British establishment can claim that the numbers are affected by remain voters, not necessarily by those seeking independence. Yes, I know it might sound like shite but it is something they will hold to.

    Further, by trying to ‘stop Brexit’ they have shown no respect for the outcome of a referendum. This will also be used against them should they cry foul of any tactics used against them. So by taking this stance they have enabled Westminster to either tag a 60% requirement on any referendum ‘so we dont experience chaos like we had (caused by remainers who couldnt handle the outcome) after the Brexit vote’ OR they can simply fill the media with economic scare stories about the consequences to poor people, the currency, the trade etc (like the ones you have all swallowed about Brexit) and tell you all that you simply didnt know what you were voting for – like the SNP told Brexiteers. So for the good of you all Westminster, who knows best, will save you from yourselves.

    The SNP have woven a nice long rope from which they can be hung. And they will be. And so will Scottish independence for the foreseeable future.

  207. Rev. Stuart Campbell says:

    “They wont play nice so why should we?”

    Because you can’t declare UDI without a single piece of evidence that a majority of the population wants it. And certainly not if you want it to be recognised by the rest of the world.

  208. Rev. Stuart Campbell says:

    “Now we must rush towards Independence. We must grab up all the disapointed Labour and Lib Dem voters who want to stay in the EU, and show them our plan B.”

    And what, pray tell, is it that you imagine this Plan B is?

  209. Good election analysis. Truth must be told to properly see and face the coming challenges and to overcome them.

  210. Dan says:

    Joe says: at 8:23 pm

    But the crux of it for me, in terms of politicking, is this:

    By making ‘stopping brexit’ the main issue of the campaign then thats there mandate as far as Westminster is concerned. The British establishment can claim that the numbers are affected by remain voters, not necessarily by those seeking independence. Yes, I know it might sound like shite but it is something they will hold to.

    Well that’s ok, as the SNP won a large majority of seats on a stopping Brexit platform, only for that to be ignored by Westminster, ergo it ties in pretty well with the wording of their previously won mandate to hold another Indyref via “Scotland being taken out of the EU against our will”.

    Are you scared of another Indyref Joe?

  211. Ian Brotherhood says:

    Craig Murray’s take on it all, with a practical suggestion on what the SNP could do.

    Can you guess what it is before opening the link?

    😉

    https://www.craigmurray.org.uk/archives/2019/12/resolution/amp/?__twitter_impression=true

  212. Republicofscotland says:

    The usual dross from QT, as the unionist lickspittle panel attack Scottish independence.

  213. Robert J. Sutherland says:

    Let’s just keep it simple, over-thinkers and inveterate grumblers (both genuine and fake). Nicola’s strategy has just proved a resounding success, crushing the vacuous NorthBritLab and even managing to decapitate the arch-delusionist FibDems. She is widely recognised by friend and foe alike as having achieved a significant success. People notice.

    So she has surely earned the right to ask us to continue to give her our unstinting support for what she has clearly carefully planned next. We are in an entirely different world now that we have the required and long-awaited clarity. It’s time for us now to act in our own best interests. We may not know exactly where that will take us next, because nothing much is guaranteed in life (and even less so in politics), but it is surely going to be an interesting ride.

    So let’s give Nicola her fair due, stop whining about pointless whatifs and political angels on pinheads, and take that ride. Together.

  214. Scott says:

    The nationalist parties won the majority of seats in Northern Ireland for the first time since partition, which suggests re-unification might not be that far away. How ironic that would be.

    The rest of the election was predictable. People were sick of the minority parliament being unable to deliver Brexit, so who was it going to be – Labour or the Tories? A relatively popular Tory Prime Minister versus the most unpopular Labour Opposition Leader in history – there was only ever going to be one outcome.

    As for Scottish independence, well,there’s no point in holding back now. Scotland is going to be dragged out of Europe against it will by a Tory government it did not vote for. And good luck getting a Section 30 order.

    It wouldn’t surprise me if the Tories try abolishing the Scottish Parliament altogether.

  215. Robert J. Sutherland says:

    Famous15 @ 19:06,

    Glad you caught up – did that one (in bold even!) several threads back. =grin=

    But like many great ideas, clearly one whose time has come. What was that quote again about “nothing so unstoppable as…”?

  216. Jock McDonnell says:

    @Brian @ 8:11pm That threat had to have some impact I would think.

  217. Sinky says:

    BBC QT Fiona Bruce has interupted Drew Hendry more times than any other panellist.

    Then didn’t allow him to answer all the questions on independence

  218. jfngw says:

    @Joe

    The person I voted for did not not have ‘stop brexit’ as the top priority, it was ‘Scotland must be choose its own future’ as the top bullet point. That’s what I voted for.

    It has been obvious for months that England was in rapture to the Johnson infatuation, I believe the SNP knew this and expected a Johnson majority. They made Indyref part of the campaign, as did the Tories. The Tory line was ‘you have 24 hours to save the union’ the day before the election, the Tories where routed in Scotland losing 54% of their MP’s.

  219. Capella says:

    The BBC reports that Boris Johnston phoned Nicola Sturgeon to tell her he is opposed to a second referendum. This is a “conversation” according to the BBC. However, there is no report of what Nicola Sturgeon said in reply. That’s not how conversations are conducted BBC. Though I suppose it explains a lot about their interview style when it comes to the SNP. One sided.

    It goes on to report on Nicola Sturgeon’s post election speech about her mandate for a referendum. Cast iron I’d say.

    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/election-2019-50789771

  220. Sinky says:

    Also going forward SNP reps need to need to be much sharper in answering questions on Gers deficit and how we can afford to be the 30th wealthiest nation on the planet in terms if GDP per capita.
    Suggest they all visit Business for Scotland if SNP can’t brief them properly

  221. robertknight says:

    Laukat at 7:24 pm
    “Looks like the FM’s plan is to ask, protest and then go to court. However If the Scottish Government wins the case the UK Government will appeal and change the law in between.

    So its difficult to see a route to independence through Scottish politics alone. I think our best hope will be Irish unification as a result of Brexit creates a domino effect across the UK.”

    If the Scottish Govt. wins the case in the UKSC, when the UK Govt. brings the Bill before the HoC, the Unionist-block MPs will simply kill it off and it won’t get passed it’s First Reading. At that point, the S30(2) Order route is blocked TFN. The UKSC can instruct the UK Govt. but it cannot instruct the UK Parliament – it is the Parliament which is Sovereign.

    As for Irish unification, if it happens before we get Indy, all the Demented Ulster Puritans will flock to Ayrshire and Lanarkshire in their thousands, bring all their bigotry and bile with them. Imagine what that’ll do for Indy in the west of Scotland.

  222. Fireproofjim says:

    I would hope that the scales would fall from the eyes of the rump of the Labour Party and they will realise that there may be a future for them in an Independent Scotland.
    There is no future for them until then.
    Until now the Labour Party in Scotland have been pretty thick, but perhaps new blood may realise the error of their ways. We need some more Yes voters and disillusioned Labourites are the obvious source.

  223. McDuff says:

    Scott 9.03
    Our problem is that if Ireland unifies all that OO lot will head for Scotland which is the last thing we need.

  224. Jock McDonnell says:

    So now that the GE is done, its time to stop raking over aspects of the recent past & who said what and to whom. We now need to consider how to win an Indyref. Whether you think we are in a weak or a strong position, we need to fight to win an Indyref.
    Personally, I agree with those who say we need to move early, early with vigour & momentum. I don’t really have any demand for an orderly agreement. I think the more confrontational, the better. Thats what happened during the Thatcher years. Engage the enemy.
    And I am so, so happy that we have the likes of Kenny Mac & Joanna Cherry in there. They have the will for a battle.

  225. sassenach says:

    robertknight

    For gawds sake, get a new record!

    That’s every post you’ve made in the last few hours saying exactly the same thing about the UKSC etc.

    You obviously feel if you keep saying the same thing over and over, it will become so ( and we’ll all crawl back into our boxes) Get a life (if not a new point).

  226. Paul says:

    I don’t know what planet you’ve been on but the SNP quite clearly stated that this election was about both Brexit and Independence. The SNP can’t accountable for however England voted and you would would have to pretty thick if you don’t know what the main policy pf the SNP is as for doing a deal with the Tories the Two faced media would have worn their SLAB face and ripped the SNP to shreds for doing so.

  227. wull says:

    I think we can now see what the SNP’s strategy was all along, and it tells us why they played the election the precise way that they did. I also think it’s worked a treat for them – and for us. As Big Jock keeps indicating, in his very sensible posts on here today.

    Like Jock I can affirm that while I too have been feeling pretty frustrated with Nicola Sturgeon for quite some time now, I also have to admit that I am not a politician, whereas she most certainly is. She has actually put us in a great position for moving forward from here, on all fronts.

    The Indy Ref is very much on the cards now, and will happen. The high profile ‘Stop Brexit’ aspect of the SNP campaign has played a big part in bringing that about. NS has brilliantly linked these two themes – ‘Stop Brexit’ and ‘Scotland must now be allowed to choose her own future’ – and she has done so in a way that is consistent with what she and the SNP have been saying all along (ever since the Brexit referendum).

    Here’s how.

    The whole thing is, finally, about respecting the sovereign will of the Scottish people. Sometimes it did not look like that – but now it definitely does. All is now apparent. ‘Stop Brexit’ is just another way of saying ‘Remain’. Remain, that is, in the EU – exactly what a clear majority of Scots voted for in the EU Remain / Leave referendum.

    Although it looked as if she had wobbled on this when she originally offered a ‘compromise’, proposing that staying in the Single Market and Customs Union might be enough – and I, for one, was mad with her for doing that – during this present election she has put what the Scots had so clearly voted for (Remain – i.e. Stop Brexit) right, left and centre of the SNP campaign. And Scotland’s original ‘Remain’ / alias Stop Brexit vote has been reaffirmed in this election. Not because the SNP got over 50% of the vote share – they didn’t – but because at least two other Parties (Lib Dem and Green), and maybe or near enough three (Labour), campaigned on the same point. All you need to do is put the SNP vote share together with that of the Lib Dems and the Greens in Scotland (and you can justifiably add Labour’s in Scotland too, I think) and you will see that Scotland’s pro-EU / anti-Brexit vote held up very well in this election.

    I haven’t done the Maths, but my guess is that once you put these vote shares together you will probably get even more than the original 62% vote for Remain. And even if you don’t it will still be well over the required 50% threshold.

    Just as England clearly reaffirmed its original vote to Leave the EU yesterday, so too did Scotland just as clearly reaffirm her desire to stay in the EU. It thus became clearer than ever that the two entities which originally constituted the UK (bringing it into existence, through the 1707 Treaties of Union – that is, the kingdom of England and the kingdom of Scotland – voted for two different, and inherently incompatible futures. And these two incompatible choices further clarified that the only possible way for each of them to have what they voted for is by bringing the UK Union to an end. So that each of them can go (ungrudgingly, and without bitterness) their own separate and democratically chosen ways.

    You will note that Nicola Sturgeon has always claimed ever since the original Brexit referendum that she was acting not so much as the leader of the SNP in this as the First Minister (which means Principal Servant) of the Scottish people as a whole. Her aim was to serve the whole country’s interest, and will, not just that of her own ‘faction’ (the SNP, and its supporters) within it. She has also so far chosen her words carefully – perhaps cannily and deliberately (which is to say wisely) – with regard to the next step, simply saying that Scotland now has the right to choose her own future.

    Some are annoyed that she did not explicitly say ‘to choose independence’, instead of which she simply said ‘to choose our own future’. That comes back to what the SNP has said all along – including Ian Blackford time and again, very specifically, in the House of Commons – that Scotland would not be dragged out of Europe against her will. The one thing that was not sufficiently clear before this GE, but which has now become abundantly clear as a result of today’s outcome, is the kind of Brexit it will be. This is the clarity which Nicola Sturgeon had always said would be necessary before the next move – i.e. the next stage of the process – would loom into sight.

    We now know it is going to be a Boris Brexit, not a Labour Party Brexit. However regrettable that might be, and Nicola Sturgeon was straightforward in admitting it was not what she really wanted, the one good thing about it – even for her – is that it is now clear. It was not clear in the previous inconclusive and basically hung parliament, but it is clear now.

    Therefore the way forward has now become clear as well. It is going to be a hard-boiled Boris Brexit, with no Single Market and no Customs Union and none of the things Scotland, the Scottish people and the Scottish economy so badly need (including, among other things, immigration and freedom of movement of labour). Scotland needs to retain membership of the EU (or at the very least to stay in very close association with it) but this is no longer on the cards. Instead, it’s the opposite, on account of the mandate that has been given to Boris Johnson’s Tory Party by England (and – alas – Wales) but NOT by Scotland.

    It is now absolutely clear that the only way for Scotland to get what she wants, needs and voted for (not once but twice, in 2016 and now again yesterday) – basically, to be in Europe, preferably with full membership – is for her to become an independent nation.

    Scotland has the inherent right to choose that future if she so wishes. The point can be argued, and won, both on the basis of international law and on the basis of what the UK actually is, which is determined by how and the grounds on which it was legally constituted.

    No one and no institution – not even the Westminster parliament (or indeed the Crown) – has the legal or moral or political right to deny the Scots their inherent right to choose their own future on this matter. And the internationally recognised and therefore inherently valid way for them to do this will be through a new referendum. The mandate for that referendum is now beyond all doubt, not just on an internal Scottish level (as it has been through the Scottish parliament) but also on that of the UK as a whole. Westminster would do well to acknowledge that this will be upheld by international law courts, and not, therefore, try to impede Scotland’s inherent rights (not least as a historic nation within a Union) … (or even within two, now conflicting and incompatible Unions, that of the UK and that of the EU).

    After all, only a few months ago, Westminster itself once again explicitly acknowledged the sovereignty of the Scottish people in Scotland. This even went through Westminster virtually (or actually?) unopposed, since it was already such a long-established and well-known fact.

    The case is overwhelming. Johnson can’t stop it, even if he wants to. And even if he does try to stop it, this will only push the pro-independence vote up when the referendum does finally take place. As it inevitably will.

    Of course, Nicola Sturgeon and the SNP would have been in an even stronger position if the SNP had gained over 50% of the vote share yesterday. Since they so nearly did, they will be disappointed that they didn’t. At the same time, they were surely sufficiently realistic to realise from the outset that while such an outcome would be the best possible scenario – remember how they insisted that ‘every vote’ would count in this GE – it was always going to be a long shot.

    At the same time, they had a built-in safety net on account of not only the Greens but above all the Lib Dems having such a clear ‘No to Brexit’ position. (When Labour came out in a fuzzy kind of a way for a second EU referendum that was a further added bonus for them.) In any case, from the outset, the Lib Dem vote share in Scotland, when combined with the SNP’s own vote share, would almost certainly guarantee them the clear evidence they needed to demonstrate that the pro-EU, ‘Remain / Stop Brexit’ majority was still well over the 50% mark in Scotland.

    I will stop here. I am sure the SNP will have ‘gamed’ in advance all the other possible or imaginable outcomes of yesterday’s vote. Their strategists will have done so well before the SNP at Westminster actually voted with the others to bring the previous parliament to an end and cause the current GE. They will have known in advance what they were do next in each of these cases. There is no need for us here to imagine or talk about what these scenarios would have been, or how the SNP leadership intended to deal with them.

    All that matters is that this is now the outcome that has come about. And their plan for dealing with it – their next move (as well as the moves that then follow), as already foreseen – is going to be in evidence very soon indeed. This is game on – you bet it is. It really is.

    As Big Jock, and a few others on here, keep reminding us: we had better all stop moaning, and get ready for the off. As I said towards the end of the previous post, NOW IS certainly THE TIME for us to become ‘YES TOGETHER’ … Let’s forget our petty differences and get behind what will be the final push … the goal is in sight, but it’ll need all of us.

  228. McDuff says:

    Mark Robertson
    2.54
    Your the one that’s lost the plot.
    The rev has done more than anyone in keeping the Indy fire going at great stress to himself.
    So what have you being doing that’s equivalent over the past seven years?

  229. Capella says:

    ICYMI – Bernard Ponsonby demands to know how you get a mandate, from Tory busy spinning double speak.

    https://twitter.com/theSNP/status/1205473008908939265?s=20

  230. jfngw says:

    I see the Rev has posted his ballot paper on twitter, worrying that it seems to be the Tory that got him excited!

  231. Sarah says:

    @Alan H: nice to see another lurker step into the limelight!

  232. Capella says:

    Just realised that Anna Soubry lost her seat. That’s quite sad. I thought she was a sympathetic character, even though Tory. Seems that all the Independent Group for change lost their seats.

    What a dire place the HoC is going to be after they return. Probably the SNP will be only too glad to find an excuse to up sticks and come back home.

  233. robertknight says:

    Sassenach@9:55

    You’re right – I keep saying the same thing in the hope that someone here who is far more politically and legally savvy than I am pops up and proceeds to tell me that the particular scenario I envisage cannot happen because…

    I’m still waiting…

  234. Head above says:

    such a shame this site is now like this. Stu has lost the plot

  235. Jockanese Wind Talker says:

    SNP can dump fighting Brexit on behalf of the UK now as that battle is lost.

    Move to IndyRef 2 and honestly say they tried everything in their power to overturn Brexit and Scotland did it’s part.

    Didn’t work.

    Launch the lifeboat

  236. call me dave says:

    @Boudicca

    Caught your post on Mr Peffers.
    Many thanks. Good to hear he’s had his operation.

    If your lurking Mr P. All the best.

    Just woke up there after 3hrs sleep since yesterday a bit woozy & hungry too. Probably be awake for hours now. 🙁 FGS.

    Have I missed much? Oh! QT Aye right. Phfft!

  237. Ian Brotherhood says:

    ‘I refrained from criticising the SNP leadership during the campaign, even to the extent of not supporting my friend Stu Campbell when he was criticised for doing so…’

    https://www.craigmurray.org.uk/archives/2019/12/resolution/amp/?__twitter_impression=true

    I put up a twitter poll at 8.30, asking

    ‘Should SNP MPs decline to attend WM?’

    Yes 36%
    No 21%
    Yes, but not yet 42%

    549 votes cast. Shuts midnight Sunday.

    So make of that what you will!

    😉

  238. George Drever says:

    Thank frig you don’t run the SNP, Stuart.

  239. shug says:

    A passing thoughts on converting unionists.

    • Westminster is planning to break the union by creating a border down the Irish sea

    • Westminster is currently prosecuting British soldier charged with shooting people while carrying out their orders. The secret police officers in charge are not being charged just the privates and NCOs.

    • Westminster destroyed pension schemes and created WASPI women

    • The Unionist labour party conspired to pay women less in Glasgow and numerous other areas.

    • Westminster makes Scottish power companies pay to put power into the system but subsidises firms in London.

    • Borris “the Scots are a verminous race”

    • Farrage “the Scots are biddable and will come to heel soon enough”

    I usually then agree with them and suggest the scots are to stupid to run their own affairs.

    Getting the to think they are Uncle Toms without actually saying it. Any other suggestions welcome

  240. Gary45% says:

    Sinky@9.19
    Got an email saying he was on QT, told him to “Take no Shit from the BBC”, did it work? I don’t have live TV.
    Or is it same old, same old? if it is, its time to chuck the towel in, before the embarrassment of begging starts.

    Hope Mr Peffers is doing fine, you are sorely missed.

  241. Glamaig says:

    The longer the Tories refuse a Section 30, the higher independence support is going to go as the UKs clusterfuck ‘trade deal’ is gradually revealed.

    Its actually in their interest to agree to a binding referendum asap because its their best chance of winning.

    With any luck they will double down and delay and delay.

    The SNP have neatly corralled the Remain and Yes support, Labour and the dreams of a socialist Britain are dead, the Lib Dems were a damp squib, 2nd EURef is dead… the open road is ahead.

    I think Alex Salmond said something about there being more than one way to skin a cat?

  242. Iain mhor says:

    @Rev Stu 8:31pm

    “..recognised by the rest of the world”
    Not that I’m necessarily an advocate of such a thing, but ‘the rest of the world’ is not a requirement. No nation state is recognised by ‘the rest of the World’
    Yes, it is obviously just a turn of phrase (I discern the meaning) but for anyone who cares to consider it; what is the quorum of the ‘World’ required and what is the nature of the ‘recognition’ one seeks?
    If the ‘rest’ recognise your Nation and a single other does not (England, USA, etc.take your pick) Is your independence nullified and why?

    Well, just one other pro-nation state would be a starter for ten in the ‘recognition’ stakes – I dare say somewhere in the world one could find a ‘witness’. Possibly (I wouldn’t bet) Ireland would be an evens as a starter for ten (look to ex-colonies and foes of Empire) After that, It’s purely horse trading politics, bidding nation against nation and whoring it.
    “Anyone want a piece of this action?” Set against the hordes of wealth, real estate, resources and the geotactical benefits we hear Scotland has.

    Further, as I have mentioned on a few occasions, the EU has specific policies allowing for trade negotiations with ‘unrecognised states’ (Transnistria et-al) and currently in practice.
    There are very few ‘pure pariah states’ – I’d go so far as to say there are no ‘unrecognised’ pariah states in the world at all’ – else who do they trade with and why haven’t their neighbours parcelled them up for allotments?
    Though in the current climate, I can quite believe Scotland would suffer that ultimate fate, as that is precisely what has been happening to it already.
    Perhaps a penny-drop moment eh? Those poor old ‘unrecognised states’ who currently have trade deals and political ties to the EU (and others) well above that which Scotland currently has – which is the square root of heehaw.

    Kosovo, Palestine, the Turkish Republic of Northern Cyprus (TRNC), South Ossetia and Abkhazia, Transnistria and Nagorno-Karabakh, Donetsk, Sahrawi, Arab Democratic Republic (SADR) in Western Sahara, Somaliland and Taiwan and more.
    Yes, Taiwan (you know where all the ‘stuff comes from)- yeah it’s an unrecognised state.

    An OT topic of discussion for anyone who remotely cares.

  243. Dan says:

    @Iain mhor

    International recognition? Well here’s a start I suppose.

    https://twitter.com/lumi_1984/status/1063912633659727872

  244. boris says:

    Rowley Sacked by New Labour Party Bosses in London

    He was elected to the post of General Secretary of the Labour Party in Scotland in May 1998 and held the post until May 1999 when after outlining his vision for the future growth of the party in Scotland he expressed a view that having modernised Scotland’s political institutions and introduced a Scottish Parliament, the party needed to change its structure including proposals giving the Labour Party in Scotland freedom from London control.

    All hell broke loose and he was summoned to Millbank in London, where he was told the party had nowhere for him in its future planning.

    He was then invited to resign from his post as General Secretary of the Scottish Labour party a decision which provoked great anger in Scotland.

    https://caltonjock.com/2019/12/13/the-london-controlled-labour-party-in-scotland-really-is-a-dead-parrot-scotland-needs-to-form-its-own-labour-party-led-by-alex-rowley-fully-supporting-scottish-independence-no-time-for-ditheri/

  245. manandboy says:

    Dear Nicola,

    Please ask Boris Johnson : ‘Do you think that England owns Scotland?’

    Thanks.

  246. manandboy says:

    Dear Nicola,

    Please ask Boris Johnson : ‘Do you think that England ‘owns’ Scotland?’ If so, please explain.

    Thanks.

  247. Confused says:

    newsnight on – tommy shep gave good account, then its a triptych – galadriel, poundshop-aragorn and kezbo duggins of dug-end

    – kirsty wark givin it expert confabulation; massie wants to storm the black gate in 2030

    kezbo says something almost clever – the people to be won over are the edinbugger middle class, the anglo-financier class

    – these are the folks who actually got something out the union, but they are venal cunts, ive said this before

    they need to be bribed to come over; similarly to how the doctors got bribed to support the nhs

    make them drool : a new country will need new central bank, investment bank, financial institutions, infrastructure, fintech, a currency …

    – would you not like to get in on this, at the ground level?? and make edinburgh a financial centre to rival london – london is where all the crooks and dirty money go; come to us, we play it CLEAN …

  248. Liz g says:

    Capella @ 10.14
    Never liked Anna Soubury after seeing her antics with Alex Salmond just before Indy Ref 1.
    Both being interviewed on a sofa and her over acting about how he just “creeps her out” and she needed to move away and couldn’t look at him, was disgusting.
    It was personal and designed to play to the don’t like Alex Salmond narrative.
    It was in that context and setting totally un necessary….
    Think of it every time I see the witch…

  249. Capella says:

    @ Liz g – I didn’t see that but it certainly sounds nasty.
    However, she was very kind to David Mundell when he “came out” in the HoC. He was very nervous and when he sat down she patted his arm and said, “Well done David.”

    Plus she walked out on Boris Johnston’s clown party. Can’t be all bad IMO.

  250. Iain mhor says:

    @me 10:39pm
    ‘OT Topic’? pff, I’ll be typing ‘Windows NT Technology’ next… time for bed.

  251. North chiel says:

    “ Well said Robert J Sutherland @0902 pm . “ Unite behind our FM and “ let’s get Indyref2 “ and thereafter @ let’s get Independence done”.

  252. Terry callachan says:

    WOS argues that SNP should have got Tory agreement to not campaign against a Scottish independence referendum
    In exchange for SNP not campaigning against brexit

    Then says that the SNP having won so many seats last night will not get Tory agreement to respect a Scottish independence referendum

    Ehhhh…yeah..we knew that,
    SNP would never connive with the tories …we knew that

    SNP certainly would never vote for brexit to help the tories because as WOS appears to have forgot two thirds of Scotland voted against brexit

    Scotland does not need Tory agreement to have a Scottish independence referendum
    Tory agreement is preferable because the tories are the Westminster government
    Negotiations and agreements will be required when Scottish independence happens

    Scotland now has over 80% of the MPs voted into Westminster by the people of Scotland

    Scotland already has over 80% of the MPs voted into Holyrood by the people of Scotland

    Only the half a million English people living in Scotland voting for Tory Labour Lib Dem stop SNP and independence having a clean sweep

    Scotland independence supporting party’s SNP and Scottish Green Party have more than 80% of the seats voted for in Westminster and Holyrood that is an overwhelming authority for Scottish independence

    Add 16/17 year old people and EU citizens who want to stay in Scotland and add in Labour voters who will get a better government than the tories can ever give them and Scotland will have a plump majority in favour of Scottish independence which cannot be affected or warped by tactical voting.

  253. manandboy says:

    England is a volcano ready to erupt. Scotland, Wales and NI, on the slopes, really should evacuate, before it’s too late..

  254. Liz g says:

    Capella @ 11.39
    Well, no ones all bad Capella cept fur us Cybernats apparently 🙂
    I’ve seen her since and I can see where you’re coming from!
    She sounds grounded and reasonable,but there’s a reason I use ( Witch ) such a typical misogynistic insult…
    She behaved in a way that was so stereotypical female,I cringed…. No male Politician could have pulled it off.
    For me…. You don’t get to pull that behaviour,because it reinforces the ” little woman narrative ” and that was not what she was supposed to be there to do.
    This was two politicians on a talk show and to pull that to damage a political debate… Was as you said nasty.
    But it did inform my opinion of Anna Soubry … LOL…
    Witch…. 🙂

  255. manandboy says:

    For the Independence movement in Scotland, GE19 constitutes a crossroads, at which a decision to either fully commit or prevaricate must be made.

  256. Liz g says:

    Capella….
    OMG…. I was typing the way I would speak…And just read it back…
    The,… Witch…. at the end ment Her, Anna Soubry not you.

  257. Dr Jim says:

    Setting aside Scotland and Northern Ireland Boris Johnson’s victory right across the UK was incredible

    SKY news presenter said that, she had opposable thumbs and looked fully human so she obviously meant to say that, and if anybody needed anything further to convince them that the English think of themselves as all things to all of themselves they need knocking on the head with a heavy object

    We the nation of Scotland do not exist in their eyes until and unless we upset their applecart then we’re a nuisance to be set aside and dealt with at a time of their convenience

    England insults every nation on God’s green earth on a daily basis, they also insult the people who live right here who are not them and nobody who doesn’t live in Scotland will ever understand this, and even some who do live here go selectively deaf because they’re cowards or wannabee Unionists, but even they should see by the dumping of the Northern Irish Unionists that the English couldn’t give a shit about anybody who they don’t consider as them

  258. manandboy says:

    At the end of the day, the SNP Government will either get this done or not.

    One singer, one song.

  259. Capella says:

    @ Liz g – Witch is fine with me, quite flattered! 🙂

  260. Liz g says:

    Capella @ 12.35
    Well…. Secretly… me too …
    But don’t be telling anyone 🙂

  261. Dr Jim says:

    AUOB March for Independence Sat 11th January
    Kelvingrove to Glasgow Green 11:30am

  262. Colin Alexander says:

    Politics is a fickle, contrary thing.

    Iain Gray hid in a shop and became a laughing stock: Boris Johnson hid in a fridge and became Prime Minister.

    Theresa May negotiated a rotten Brexit deal and lost the Tory leadership and role as PM: Boris Johnson came up with a rotten deal and now leads the largest Tory majority for decades.

    Labour and the LibDems both did not respect the English/ UK LEAVE vote and got slaughtered at the polls.

    The SNP stood on a platform of “Stop Brexit” and “lock Boris Johnson out of power” and have failed to do both, and we are celebrating the success of 48 SNP MPs.

    The SNP must now push for indy 100%. If they tread water and turn up at WM pretending they can be “Stronger For Scotland” at the extreme right-wing-Tory dominated Commons they risk losing the goodwill they now have.

    If the S30 request is not immediately approved and legislated, the SNP should withdraw their MPs.
    As democracy for Scotland, as part of the UK, will be dead.

    What’s the point of 48 mourners at the Commons’ Tory celebration party for the death of Scottish democracy?

    We MUST have 48 champions leading the way to Scottish independence.

  263. Brian Doonthetoon says:

    Hi Liz g at 11:35 pm

    You typed,
    “Capella @ 10.14
    Never liked Anna Soubury after seeing her antics with Alex Salmond just before Indy Ref 1.
    Both being interviewed on a sofa and her over acting about how he just “creeps her out” and she needed to move away and couldn’t look at him, was disgusting.”

    Back in 2014, there were 2 or 3 videos showing Soubry during her time at Grampian TV in the early 80s. The next time I looked for them, they had been removed.
    The one that sticks in my mind was when she was actually taking part in “Romper Room”.

    Onnyhoo, just did another YouTube search and found those below. BTW: Anna Soubry was a continuity announcer with GTV and made occasional appearances on programmes.

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=N7eyKzoNbhw

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sOk84wkwk6A

    Check out this video at 2:48…
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=r4_Y_J3wTdE

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZhGMqNbKfxs

  264. Robert J. Sutherland says:

    As usual, Paul gets the current situation “right on the button”, both in tone and in positive thinking:

    https://weegingerdug.wordpress.com/2019/12/13/independence-beckons/

  265. tam says:

    your advice , seriously deluded

  266. Liz g says:

    Briandoonthetoon @ 1.39
    Thank you…. But No
    That’s not the episode I’m talking about…

    So sorry I haven’t the skills to back up what I’m saying..

    This was in the run up to the 1st Indy Ref….
    Mibbi a Sunday thing.
    But definitely….
    Annan Soubry and Alex Salmond as guest’s

  267. Brian Doonthetoon says:

    Nah Liz g…

    I was only pointing out what Ms Soubry was up to before her political “shenanigans”.

  268. Breeks says:


    Ian Brotherhood says:
    13 December, 2019 at 10:25 pm

    ….I put up a twitter poll at 8.30, asking

    ‘Should SNP MPs decline to attend WM?’

    Yes 36%
    No 21%
    Yes, but not yet 42%…….

    I’m in the ‘Yes, but not yet’ group.

    I’m a definite yes, but there needs to be Constitutional red line first… there needs to be an ultimatum delivered which is binary, easy for everybody to understand, Unionist and Independentist alike, and which registers as Constitutionally legitimate in the eyes of the International community.

    It is essential that the UK sweeping aside the democratic wishes of a sovereign people in a sovereign Nation is understood by the International Community, and understood that Scotland’s actions are entirely justified and appropriate in the face of Westminster’s colonial arrogance and “forcing” Scotland to Brexit. Scotland has both the right, and the due cause, to defend it’s interests.

    Once such an ultimatum exists, where Scotland and the International Community are of one mind, and Westminster is the errant party, that is the time to bring our Government home from Westminster.

    Out government must come home the moment it ceases to recognise the faux sovereignty of Westminster, in lieu of unambiguous affirmation of Scottish Sovereignty enshrined in the Scottish people.

    To doubt is to fail. Scotland IS sovereign, and the Union is, and always has been a Constitutional absurdity which should never have stood and was never sound.

    If we want to avoid Brexit, or secure for ourselves a holding pen status still inside Europe, we must be prepared to act swiftly and decisively, and be prepared for our democracy to play second fiddle to a Constitutionally Sovereign imperative which is more fleet of foot than a clumsy and slow referendum. Democracy can be adequately served retrospectively with a confirmatory vote or ratification plebiscite to follow on.

    The other significant change might not be walking out of Westminster, but simultaneously walking out of Holyrood. Scotland must assert sovereignty through it’s National Government, not a devolved legislature. It may be equally important for our Holyrood and Westminster Scottish MP’s and MSP’s to symbolically sit outside of both Holyrood AND Westminster, and thus make an unequivocal statement that it is a national Scottish Government which is answerable to the sovereign people of Scotland, and specifically NOT a devolved legislature empowered by Westminster which has ideas above it’s station.

    In practical terms, Holyrood is also short of 59 seats. Symbolically, and practically, Scotland’s Government needs a temporary venue for the true reconvening of Scotland’s WHOLE Parliament since 1707.

    It was said back during the Parliament Building fiasco that the Scottish Parliament could sit in a field. With an eye for the theatrics and historic symbolism, maybe we could think of a better option… but the opportunity awaits.

  269. Swami Backverandah says:

    By campaigning to stop Brexit and increasing the seat tally on the back of it the SNP can claim not only a mandate for remaining in the EU, but also that Brexit is the clear and demonstrable change in circumstances necessary to prove their case for another indyref.

    Has it been pointed out above? Forgive me if so, late to the party and haven’t read the comments yet.

  270. Capella says:

    Exit polls are very accurate, we are told. Remember that there was no exit poll in 2014, which looked suspicious. We debated what the explanation could be since exit polls have become such a regular feature of every election night special on the BBC for decades. Who commisions and pays for them?

    The exit poll on Thursday night was very accurate for the Tory and Lib Dem tally. But Labour were predicted to get 191 seats and ended up with 203.

    The SNP were predicted to get 55 seats but ended up with 48.

    I wonder what the explanation is. Postal votes could skew the tally since no postal voter exits the polling station.
    Still, it’s a puzzle that Labour got far more seats than predicted but the SNP got quite a few less.

  271. Tatu3 says:

    Will @ 9.57pm. Well said, you always talk sense.

  272. Tatu3 says:

    Wull not Will. Apologies

  273. Dorothy Devine says:

    Liz , I remember that well and wrote her off there and then as a foolish, nasty woman.

    It was round about the same time as Paxman called Alex Salmond Pol Pot and other flattering names – wrote Paxman off a long time ago.

    Dr Jim , thanks for the heads up on the next march – my hip and knees may have to cheat and take the bus most of the way but I’ll be there.

  274. Robert J. Sutherland says:

    Capella @ 06:23,

    Apparently there were only 12 polling stations in Scotland that were sampled. (They don’t do them all, never have.) I don’t know which they actually were, but in the event it evidently wasn’t enough either in number or in spread to sufficiently capture the variations in opinion, not least between urban and rural areas.

    Some of those rural areas, Orkney & Shetland being the most obvious, are strongly idiosyncratic and don’t follow any kind of national trend anyway. Removing Swinson from East Dun is hard enough, but removing Liar Carmichael would need a whopper of an electoral tsunami. As others have already mentioned, the military personnel and their families around Lossiemouth likely make Moray another anomalous case in Scottish terms.

    Likewise the postal votes don’t get sampled. Maybe there are more of these in rural areas for reasons of convenience, though that’s just my speculation.

    Anyway, exit polling is useful, but it isn’t the control panacea that some seem to imagine.

  275. Capella says:

    Yes I heard that there were only 12 exit polls in Scotland and there must have been a similar sampling section in England. But I also heard that it was our very own psephological genius Sir John Curtice who had chosen the twelve and so might expect greater accuracy?

  276. BobW says:

    It really annoys when newspapers and posters use the English nomenclature for Polling Places.

  277. Clive Scott says:

    Laughable post from the Rev – 47+1 MP’s = 81% and 45% of the total vote, both much better than the Tories in Englandshire. Nicola definitely doing something right! Personally, I would like her to be much more aggressive and seek ways for disruptive non cooperation with Westminster. Whilst that would make me feel better I doubt it would play well with undecideds that we need to convert to yes. So, I support Nicola and her team.

  278. Jim Lynch says:

    Yesterday morning my wife and I were remembering what things were like when we joined in 1966. No MPs, a few councillors here and there. We have now been through a referendum or two, 4 actually.

    We have advanced, some Scots also.

    Just hoping to see another Referendum before we snuff it, but we could not imagine in 1966 where we are today.

    Patience is a dish served cold.

  279. Gary says:

    The Tories would never have done a deal with the hated ‘nationalists’ and the SNP would have been killed stone dead by any deal with the Tories, it might even have affected the possibility of winning the vote – Labour would have had MUCH ammunition to use against a deal ‘cooked up by the Tories’ especially that it was ‘selling out the rest of the UK’ etc etc

    Politics doesn’t operate in a vacuum…

  280. crazycat says:

    @ Capella at 6.23 and 10.36

    An explanation that I saw for the lack of exit polls in 2014 (and 2016) was this:

    A certain number of polling places are sampled, and it is the same polling places each election – what they are looking for is swing. I remember how obvious it was in 1997 that Labour was going to win big, even though the first few seats to declare were safe Labour seats – they still displayed swing.

    With a referendum, the question will not have been asked before, so there will nothing to compare with, no way of knowing how representative the samples are, etc.

    Of course, now that there may (will) be another referendum with the same question (it had better be), it might have been possible to have an exit poll, if only there had been one in 2014 to compare it to…

  281. Paul says:

    The SNP never failed what bollocks! When did the Yoons get to you? Don’t be surprised when your traffic falls of a Cliff I never thought I’d see the Day that you would be got at but Oh well there you go! The SNP did fine without you the Yes movement is bigger than anyone individual!

  282. Graeme Reid says:

    Jesus fucking christ. What has happened? The, imho best website and person to analyse and take down spurious lies and facts and figures has went rogue. Do a deal with the Tories, bin Sturgeon, slate the SNP etc etc. I genuinely feel saddened on the recent output, not that the SNP are beyond reproach, but a megalomaniac who has overestimated his self importance and has fucked up a once lauded political site. Best bar none re Scottish independence matters. Now judging by many and various online indy opinions the rev is bad news. It shouldn’t have turned out like this. Block, slate me whatever, but talk about snatching defeat from the jaws of victory. Nae need.

  283. liz says:

    Just my tuppenceworth. All those saying the Rev has gone rogue, and whatever other variations, make me suspicious.

    You don’t like what he says,move on to other more comforting blogs, I’m sure there’s many around.

    I prefer opinions that are sharp and to the point.

    I held my nose this time and at the EU elections, so I want to see some action.
    But lay off with your attempts at trying to discredit the Rev, it won’t work

  284. John says:

    Man..don’t let the fuckers grind you down. I did laugh out loud tho but it was so long ago i forget why



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